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The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
One did it bump, but the best is paid for was.
I hope that's understood.
One did it bump!
BELL RINGS
Thank you.
Thank you.
One of the things you noticed right away, even just outside the city and far away from the Superdome, was that there was a massive amount of helicopters passing over New Orleans just constantly.
It was obviously security related.
It was also the physical security and the secret service was performing all of those security checks.
So that was really something to behold.
So that they can pass people through right away.
And what the NFL was able to do with all of those lights, knowing at which seat they're going to be located and activating them at certain times in a fully packed, massive stadium like we were in in New Orleans.
And that was something to behold.
And it was just watching that, you know, just watching that, as quickly as it always is during those particular events.
So that must have been, you know, it being a Super Bowl, you know, it being a Super Bowl alone is cause for all kinds of extra security.
But having the president of the United States there, but having the president of the United States there as well, that certainly would add to it in addition.
But it sounds like it seems fairly normal for that kind of a thing.
Yeah, it is.
I mean, and it's not like I go to a lot of football games.
It's amazingly, and even though I was at the NFL, I managed to avoid ever attending a football game in my entire life other than the Super Bowl.
So this is my first game, first football game ever.
I never went to a football game in high school, college.
Yeah, I just was not really, it was very uninteresting to me.
But having worked at the NFL, I guess I have a newfound appreciation of the game in many respects.
And one of the things that's just been fascinating to me is how many technological problems and cybersecurity problems can arise from a game with a bunch of really big dudes throwing around a ball.
That's pretty interesting.
And there's, sorry.
Do you have to do the show with your dog in the same room?
Yeah, sorry about that.
My children are returning home, so the Beagle is freaking out here.
So she's making her own appearance tonight on WBAI, apparently.
All right.
So anyway, glad you were able to do that.
Just one final question, though, because this has been brought up numerous times in Maggitland,
about how out of touch the halftime show was with Mainstream America, how Kendrick Lamar simply did not resonate.
Was that true in the stands?
Were people confused or alienated or even scared of all this woke propaganda coming their way?
Well, I'll tell you this.
I was just kind of confused being in the stands and watching the halftime show.
It was very interesting to watch.
It was neat.
It was a lot of fancy moves and things.
But it was definitely a halftime show that was designed not necessarily for the stadium audience,
but primarily for the television audience, because you really needed to see the various angles from which they were filming the halftime show,
I think, to understand the import of what they were doing and the moves and the lyrics.
From the vantage of being in the stadium, and I'm happy to say that our seats were pretty damn good.
We were right in one of the end zones.
I think we actually probably had a better view of the players than President Trump did, quite frankly.
But from our perspective, the halftime show was actually pretty small relative to the size of the field.
It was difficult to figure out exactly what was going on.
So we were just a little bit mystified by it.
I would say I could surmise that there was some kind of woke aspect to it,
but that there was some kind of commentary about America and current status of America at that time.
But I couldn't figure out exactly what it was.
What we did see, however, quite clearly at the halftime show was one of the dancers for Kendrick Lamar,
who had unfurled the Palestinian flag, a flag in support of Sudan and Gaza,
and then he was escorted off the field and arrested.
I think he was actually arrested right on the field.
I know he wasn't charged in the end, but I know he was tackled by some people in suits,
which must have been an odd thing to see.
And that's something also that did not appear on TV.
The cameras missed that or avoided that.
But what you described as being somewhat perplexed by what was going on in the field,
that also applies to the game, because the game is meant for the TV audience.
You guys are there for the background, but the game and the halftime show,
it's for the bigger audience out there.
And if you are able to see some of it and get some of it, all the better.
But it's normal not to be able to understand everything that's going on.
Yeah, that's a great point, too, because it's very hard to see exactly what's happening there.
You're there in the audience for the energy, for the support, to be around other fans,
to see the players in action.
And it's quite interesting, too, to see how small a football field is.
When you watch it on television, you see it.
It looks like it's never-ending, right?
That's because of the perspective.
But to actually watch a football game and figure out what's going on,
what the players are doing, understand the strategy of every single play on the field,
it's a hell of a lot better, I think, to just watch that from home than to be within a stadium.
If you want to know what's going on in the game.
What I do, when I go to mass sporting events occasionally,
I try to watch all the things that aren't on camera, the things in the background,
the camera people, the sound people, the security people.
I just want to see all the things that are going on that we're not supposed to fixate on,
just to see how it coordinates, and also to perhaps catch a glimpse of something that maybe nobody else saw.
Yeah, well, there's a lot of that, and I think probably even more of that at the Super Bowl.
One of the things that stands out, too, are the issues with player-to-coach communications, as well,
because that's all done through use of radio.
So the coaches are communicating with, usually I think it's one individual player,
and that's through some kind of radio frequency.
And if you would think, well, you know, you have to understand what that frequency is,
you want to make sure that that frequency isn't jammed,
you want to make sure that those communications are secure.
There are a lot of interesting security-related issues that arise from a football game
that are really fascinating to watch and fascinating to dissect.
And that was one of the things that I really enjoyed about being within the NFL.
So, you know, not only did I get the opportunity to work on some of the tech and security issues
relating to the installation of the new camera systems at all of the stadiums around the country,
but also to work on some of the security issues that related to the use of IoT devices in stadium
that could also interfere with those types of player-to-coach communications.
So some really interesting stuff, but I think you bring up a lot of the cool tech issues here,
and maybe we could have some of my colleagues from the NFL join the show one day
and talk further about this.
Well, I would advise you, Alex, forget the game.
The game, you know, is okay, but it's just a game.
Watch the halftime show.
It is brilliant.
It is really amazing.
You know, I saw it live, then I watched it a second time,
and it just resonated much better with Samuel Jackson and Kendrick Lamar,
and just the subversive message that they were sending.
It really pissed Trump off.
He left right after it.
He couldn't handle it.
But it is really incredible, and it speaks, I think, more succinctly than almost anything else
during that entire, what is it, eight-hour period of the game?
I don't know.
I know.
It's a long time.
But that's a great point as well that you brought up because, you know,
there was this announcement that there was going to be some special guests
and some special appearances at the halftime show.
We had no idea that Samuel L. Jackson was there.
No clue.
We didn't see him on field.
We had no idea.
We were told that he was there afterwards.
My wife and I said, oh, well, that would have been nice to know that he was there.
We literally had no clue.
Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't leave with that.
You said you were in the same stadium as President Trump,
what you should have said, you're in the same city as Samuel L. Jackson.
That alone is impressive.
Yeah, that's true.
That would be kind of cool.
But it was an aspect of something that was kind of lost and mystified on us.
But I think that you also bring up a good point with the halftime show.
And this is something I think that I hope won't be lost on WBIN listeners
and our regular listeners as well as part of the hacker community.
Is that the NFL is also something that is not only just tied up with Americana
and American culture itself.
And, you know, we very often think of it as associated with, you know,
pickup trucks and drinking beer and things like that.
But as an institution, they have been very much involved with social justice issues
and players kneeling.
Remember a couple of years ago, players kneeling to support Black Lives Matters
and not participating in the national anthem.
No, I'm glad they cleared that up.
What team is Cologne Kaepernick playing for again?
Remember, this is my first football game.
What was it?
The Chiefs, I guess, I was playing for, you know?
I have no idea.
No, never mind.
Keep going.
Yeah.
But that's part and parcel of what the NFL is in many ways,
that they do take a lot of these controversial positions.
But one of the news stories that came out just ahead of the Super Bowl
was that they decided to remove this end-racism statement
on account of President Trump showing up for the Super Bowl.
Alex, it's over.
Unbelievable.
It's over.
Racism has been eradicated.
Oh, it's ended.
It's done.
Yeah.
So that's why they erased it.
It's like it.
So we didn't need it anymore.
This guy, George Orwell, wrote some nice pieces about this kind of a thing,
where basically when something no longer exists, you just erase it.
People don't associate the NFL with plantations anymore.
No.
So they ended the end-racism, and that's gone.
Yeah.
It's pretty unbelievable some of the things that you might not be aware of
that are going on out there.
Yeah, that's true.
So on the one hand, I think, you know,
they have this history of being part of these social justice causes.
On the other hand, they're one of these organizations
that's afraid of getting on the bad side of Trump.
Yet, on third hand, they allowed the halftime show
that had this very positive, woke message to go forward.
So it's hard to figure out where they land.
Well, you know, they can't.
I don't know why I'm echoing.
Does somebody have a speaker on?
It's a bit annoying.
Okay.
So I don't know if they can control the message at halftime.
They can control who performs at halftime.
But once they've got the microphone, they can just go ahead and say what they want to say.
Whereas, you know, a slogan painted onto the field, they can just get rid of that.
And what you say is interesting, because we're seeing that in the tech industry constantly,
where companies have taken a stand, you know, for justice and fairness and equality.
And now they're backing down because they're afraid of being on Trump's bad side.
And I just want to ask them, what are you so afraid of?
I mean, yeah, I know the guy's out of his mind and is doing all kinds of crazy things.
But don't you want to be on the right side of that?
It might hurt you in the short run.
But history is ultimately what's going to judge where you were at this pivotal moment in history.
So I don't know.
We're seeing cowardice on many, many levels.
The most significant being the most powerful levels we're seeing cowardice.
And I'm seeing I'm seeing courage from individuals more than anything else, not from politicians, not from Democrats.
No, from actual individual people standing up and refusing to be intimidated, refusing to back down, showing up to protest, to make their voices heard.
And this is just the beginning.
We are going to need this for quite a while to come until, you know, until something changes.
And the only way it's going to change is if people get together, put aside their differences and unite in what they all believe in.
Yeah, that's that's that's one way of looking at it.
I think we've got a long way to go here, though, Emmanuel.
I think there are a lot of organizations that really just don't want to be on the bad side of Trump because they know that he has promised essentially to weaponize the justice system, to use regulatory scrutiny and and whatever other means are at his disposal to try to target his political enemies.
This is what he promised.
This is what people voted for.
Let's let's let's have him do that at, you know, 24 hours a day.
Let's have him come after everybody, you know, and and and call his bluff.
And if he's not bluffing, show the world what he's capable of and fight back instead of just taking it, because, you know, this is not somebody you can reason with.
You know, we saw it today, and this is kind of an interesting story that we don't see eye to eye on.
But this whole congestion pricing thing in New York City, it's something that was instituted before Trump took power so that he wouldn't be able to stop it.
And now apparently he's going to stop it anyway somehow, or at least he thinks he can.
Listen to this tweet.
Congestion pricing is dead.
Manhattan and all of New York is saved.
Long live the king.
What the hell is going on here?
This guy really thinks he is a king.
No, he it's not a joke.
He really believes he is a king and can do anything.
Now, this is a program, you know, like it or hate it.
It was in place.
It was legitimately put in place.
It was working.
We were seeing the effects of it.
But even if you're opposed to it, to have somebody come in and do something like this, basically override what, you know, a state has decided to do, what a city has decided to do.
That's before the mayor of the city became completely in Trump's pocket as well.
But we won't get into that right now.
But this is the kind of thing that we can see, you know, more and more of in the future if we just allow it to happen.
And we have to fight back on this and on everything that we wind up being attacked with.
And, you know, again, you know, regardless of how you feel about this program, you should be incensed that somebody feels they can just steamroll in and negate what people who represent the area basically move forward with, you know, legitimately.
I don't know.
I just think there are many aspects to this.
Yes, Alex.
Yeah, we definitely don't see eye to eye on the philosophy underlying the congestion charge for sure.
I will tell you, though, my tune has slightly changed for pragmatic reasons because having gone in and out of the city, either from JFK, Newark, or back and forth from Pennsylvania, I am noticing that there is a hell of a lot less traffic and I can get in and out of the tunnels a lot faster.
This is something I think that is a great benefit in many ways to a lot of commuters and people that have to deal with the infrastructure around the city.
Not only that, Alex, not only that, but you ride a bike and having less cars on the streets of Manhattan is a lot safer for you as a bike rider and, you know, a pedestrian as well.
Yes, the fewer cars, the better, as some of us would say.
But with respect to Trump's dictatorial position on that congestion charge, though, I mean, this seems to be kind of anathema to his overall philosophy as well.
I mean, one of the things that he had campaigned on is kind of these libertarian type of principles where the federal government wants to be very hands-off with respect to certain things and states should take over certain aspects and they should be more autonomous.
And the federal government shouldn't be sticking its nose in all this business.
And, in fact, they even have an entire crew called the Doge out there to stamp out waste and cut federal programs and cut jobs, fire people, terminate people across the board, whether they're in the Park Service, the Climate Corps, it doesn't matter.
They're going around and cutting all these jobs.
But then at the same time, Trump comes in there and from on high, quite literally, like some kind of monarch, starts dictating what New York can and cannot do.
And so he doesn't seem to have any kind of consistent philosophy of governance here.
He's just picking and choosing who he wants to target, New York being a liberal city with a liberal governor.
He doesn't like it, so he's going to stick his nose in and try to curry favor with New Yorkers that wound up supporting him.
And remember, he did get a lot more support this past election in New York and from all of the boroughs.
And so it's kind of mystifying to me why he thinks he can just come in and overrule local policy made by a state and local government.
But it's totally against what his overarching philosophy with respect to federal governance stands for.
Go ahead, Gila.
Alex, I think you're giving him too much credit because governance, business, personal life, you name it, his overarching directive is it's got to be good for me.
And Trump Tower is three blocks below the top of the congestion zone.
That's why he wants to kill the toll.
He doesn't care about anybody else.
He doesn't care about who voted for him in New York.
He doesn't care about Eric Adams.
He doesn't care about Kathy Hochul.
He doesn't care about Yano Lieber.
He cares that he lives three blocks below the zone.
Wait a minute.
You're saying that this is about him not wanting to pay $9?
Uh-huh.
You think he pays $9?
The thing is, because of the tolling, this is something that he would at least get billed for.
And I think there are probably penalties in place, as opposed to every other contractor that he has stiffed, every bill he hasn't paid in the last umptie-umpteen years.
Doesn't he arrive by helicopter?
So, I don't think you can park a helicopter at Trump Tower.
No, you park it downtown by our old studios on Wall Street, and then you take some kind of limo thing uptown, and you avoid the congestion charge that way.
I think at 57th Street, he'd be in the congestion zone.
Okay, look.
And I think that's it.
I think this is petty.
He just wants to stick it to the people he views as opponents, and he views all of New York City as his opponents, which is not that far off from reality.
But this is something that, like Alex said, you know, it's basically hypocritical that somebody is attacking states' rights who supposedly stands up for states' rights.
Same thing with the weaponization of the Justice Department, something that he has long accused Biden of doing without really pointing to evidence that can stick.
Whereas in his case, it's very obvious what's going on because he's dictating it.
He's saying this is going to happen, and then it happens.
So he has weaponized the Department of Justice for sure.
So there's so much hypocrisy here.
We would waste a lot of time just outlining it all.
I just, you know, I just think this is an important case to focus on because it shows how people can be manipulated.
We're seeing corporations being manipulated.
We're seeing the tech industry being manipulated.
And individuals, too, are buying into a lot of these talking points that simply don't hold up to scrutiny.
You know, one of the things that we keep hearing is that he was elected, which is true.
He was elected, and he has a mandate from the people.
Not so true because while he may have won the popular vote, he won the popular vote by a smaller margin.
I've got figures right here.
Okay, let's give you an example.
When Obama was elected in 2008, he won the popular vote by 9,550,193 votes, nearly 10 million votes.
All right.
When Obama won the second time, it was nearly 5 million votes that he won by.
When Trump won the first time, he actually lost by 2.8 million.
We remember that.
But when Biden won, he won by 7 million.
So Trump in 2024 won by only 2 million.
I mean, 2 million people is a lot, but it's the smallest number since, hang on, I gotta go back a ways, since Jimmy Carter, 1976.
Smallest number.
Not a mandate.
Definitely not a mandate.
You know what a mandate was?
A mandate was when Reagan won in 1984, 16 million.
That was a mandate.
I just had a non sequitur about, like, hacking and telephones.
And just, I want to implore people out there that we're going through the occurring, like, what's going on, the details day to day.
I just want everyone to know, as a background, the message here is this is a complete and utter crisis across the board.
But specifically within the community of hackers, there are people who are using technology for bad.
We know that.
We're talking about it.
We're trying to discuss the day-to-day news in that way.
But I really, really want everyone to understand that this is paralyzing our community.
People are, I think apoplectic is a word, people are beside themselves.
They're upset.
They're hurt.
They're shutting down, closing off.
They're not using communications.
We have the best end-to-end encrypted technology.
We have all kinds of resources.
I know a lot of people work in, and they're quite busy, and you need, as Alex was kind of championing, there is this security complex we feed to address yet more problems.
But the underlying problems take activation, and it isn't just that private industry will make things ever more complex or secure and fix the ills we're all at the effect of.
And I really think people have to communicate.
People have to use their free time.
I'm sorry.
I know we're all busy with wage slavery.
It's a thing here, and even fighting the monopolistic tendencies of capitalism, like, you might have a spare minute, and just, if it's just boosting something on a social media platform, that's okay, too.
Do what you can, but do not shut down.
We absolutely need every single hacker, poser, whatever you think you aren't, skiddy, whatever derogatory thing they'll call you, whatever thing you aspire to be, please do something.
Act.
Whatever it is, don't shut down.
Talk to people who don't understand the implications of technology.
I really, I'm not scared.
This is not a time to be fearful.
It is a time to be absolutely as forceful as possible.
And we are really missing talking about, oh, this, then, that, and why this, and, oh, gosh, I'm shocked that he's doing it.
How does he think this?
It's all bluff if we don't do it, that we're substantiating if we don't do anything, if we don't stand up to it.
And I am just, I'm taking time here.
I know, E, you have other things to get to.
There's other people on the show that want to comment.
We'll get calls or have time after the show.
But here we are on the greatest radio station in the middle of the commercial spectrum talking about the implications of this specifically with technology and hacking and computers.
And they have their little, their teams, the Doge team, all these disciples, they have them lined up.
And they understand technology, too.
We're not at this, like, digital divide where, like, the cops don't get security or the government's slow.
They're running Windows 98.
No.
The world has changed.
They absolutely, they have, Palantir is in their back pocket, right, forecasting what they'll oppress next.
Who knows?
I mean, who knows how they're using it?
But they have all the money, tons of resources, now the entirety of the government.
And we are, you know, clocking in and going home.
And supposedly, as much as they would have it, we're crying into our miso or whatever.
But the point of our show here is to inspire and to activate people.
Please get engaged.
Please do something.
If you don't have a hacker crew, make one.
Make ten, okay?
Make shell hacker groups.
Whatever you have to do.
But this is absolutely an affront to the existence of everything you might know and everything your children might think could be.
And I really don't want us to waste any more time obsessing over our surprise at people acting awful.
I could go on, I'm going to stop, but I really, I took that time because I want people to know we're not getting enough from hackers.
People, please write.
Please talk.
Please communicate.
Call the show.
Call us.
Call a friend.
Call out into the alleyway.
Whatever you have to do, do something.
Because it's not going to happen if we all just cross our arms and wonder and try to, like, pick our jaws up.
It's not surprising.
Half of us, a lot of us predicted this.
And it's about what are we going to do?
What are we doing?
How are we supporting the leadership in understanding what to do?
What we want them to do?
And I just, I cannot tell you, like, the entirety of the phone system got hacked a couple months ago.
Is anybody telling us anything about that?
Is there any explanation from those private entities who take our money?
Have they said anything about what's going to happen, what they're going to do, other than guarantees and, like, $20 rebates or something?
Like, there are crazy important issues out there, and we have got to stop being distracted.
I'm going to shut up now, but I'm taking this time because I'm really, really looking for a lot more, especially out of hackers.
And I know we have our little differences.
We have our little clicks and infights and stuff.
This is not the time for any of that.
Wow.
Thank you.
Thank you for saying all of that.
And, yeah, I have to agree with just about everything you said and hope that people do start being counted.
And there are people who are being counted already, but don't count on the so-called leadership to do that because, I don't know, they're timid.
And they look towards the next election.
They don't really want to put their necks on the line, especially if they don't feel that enough people are behind them.
And that's why it's so important for the people to speak and to either say something similar or say something different, but be counted and don't let this bit of history just pass you by.
Yeah, it's super relevant.
I know there are people who think it's not relevant to our subject matter.
Absolutely is.
It's relevant to every facet of our society.
You have to get involved or at least be aware and have conversations and listen because everything, everything is at stake here.
You know, Ukraine alone, what has happened in the past couple of days, now they're the enemy, apparently.
Yeah, they're our enemy.
They may not have said those words, but they are being treated as the enemy.
Trump calls Zelensky a dictator today while cozying up to Putin, Putin of all people.
It's disgusting and fodder for a lot of humor as well, but there are serious consequences to this kind of thing.
And you might not see them now, you might not see how it affects you, but when economies start to crash, when military alliances change, when the things that you took for granted are no longer there, you'll know it then.
But will there be any way of doing something about it at that point?
This is the time to get involved.
Also, I would be remiss if I didn't remind people that we're in the middle of a fun drive here at WBAI.
And yeah, I see a lot of eyes rolling, not here, but, you know, out there in listener land.
I know, but it's, look, do you think we can say these kinds of things on a station where we play commercials?
Do you think that?
You know, if you turn around to any station surrounding us anywhere, you won't find this kind of thing.
You'll find the same music, you'll find the same commercials, you'll find the same mainstream crap.
And that's what pays their bills.
But it doesn't do anything for their level of thinking, their level of awareness, their level of caring.
And that's what we count on our listeners for, is that level of caring.
So please, be a BAI buddy.
A WBAI buddy is somebody who pays a small amount every month and helps support the station.
You can go to the website buddy.wbai.org.
Or if you want to sign up immediately, you can call 1-833-WBAINYC.
1-833-WBAINYC.
Maybe somebody can translate that into numbers because some people don't have letters on their phones.
And I don't have a phone, so I can't do that.
But you can use a credit card or a debit card if you wish.
And if no one answers, you can leave a voicemail with your name and a number for a callback.
Or you can mail a check or money order to WBAI, 388 Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, New York, 11217.
But the important thing is to pledge what you can to keep this station going.
Because, you know, there have been so many times when we have been attacked, when we have been taken down by one faction or another.
But I think we all see now the importance, how absolutely vital it is to have a station like WBAI on the air.
Because you can reach people through websites, sure, but you have to look for the website to find it.
It's not the same thing.
I guarantee you there are people right now driving in New York City.
Hey, what's going on?
Be careful, though.
Listening to the radio.
Maybe your taxi driver is listening to the radio.
You know what?
Give them an extra chip because I said that.
Yeah.
But there are people who tune to the radio and they don't know what it is that they found.
They just find it by accident.
It happens to me every day.
You know, I turn on the radio, turn to different stations, and I hear things that I never would have imagined.
Music I've never heard before, opinions, perspectives.
That's the magic of radio.
That's what you're keeping alive by pledging to WBAI.
And we've been doing this since 1960.
Somehow, we've managed to do it without airing a single commercial in all that time.
I say somehow, but it's really because of you.
Because of listeners like you, listeners like your parents, listeners like your grandparents.
It goes back that far.
So, we absolutely need listeners to survive.
We can't survive on corporate donations.
We can't survive on government grants.
We can't survive on commercials.
We just won't do that.
So, please, show your support.
Buddy.WBAI.org or call 1-833-WBAI-NYC.
Did anybody translate that?
9-2-4-4-6.
You should have written it down.
I'll read the first part.
You read the rest.
9-2.
It's WBAI-NYC.
So, okay.
1-833-922-4692.
There you go.
Let's write that down and keep it so we don't have to go through this every time.
All right.
Great.
Oh, yeah.
I forgot the two.
You know what?
We're running out of time rapidly, but we do have to focus on something that happened since our last show.
Doge got hacked.
Yeah.
Did you think this was going to take a long time?
Of course, Doge got hacked.
If there are hackers out there, they are going to hack something, and Doge is the number one screaming target of all of them.
Yeah.
So, basically, they posted classified intelligence data on their new website before the hack hit the platform.
That's according to Huffington Post.
Who cites one federal intelligence employee, probably an intelligent employee as well.
The Doge.gov, that's D-O-G-E dot G-O-V, by the way.
Their website was reportedly hacked with a person allegedly posting a message saying these, quote, unquote, experts left their database open.
As per the Huffington Post report, Musk's team posted information about the size and staff of a U.S. intelligence agency.
This comes after President Trump signed an executive order allowing Doge access to access key details about federal agencies.
The report further added that the tiny print at the bottom of the Doge website said its database excludes information from intelligence agencies.
However, an easy search shows that Doge's database provides details on the National Reconnaissance Office, the federal agency that designs, builds, and maintains U.S. intelligence satellites.
The NRO's budgets and headcounts are classified.
Doge just posted secret, no foreign, N-O-F-O-R-N info, on their website about intelligence community headcount.
So currently people are scrambling to check if their info has been accessed.
That's according to one defense intelligence agency.
They don't have names, so we'll never find out who they are.
As per the outlet, a spokesperson for the NRO did not clearly respond to a question, instead diverting it to Doge, we defer to the Department of Government Efficiency for comment on the release of information posted on Doge.gov.
An aide to a senator, who also, the aide doesn't want to be named and the senator doesn't want to be named, they work on intelligence-related matters, basically said that Doge sharing information is absolutely a problem under the current intelligence standards.
Folks, we are living through security breaches of a sort that I don't think we could have even imagined in fiction.
It's happening every day.
We have unelected people rummaging through databases.
They have now been given access to IRS tax records for all of us.
They have access to Social Security records for all of us.
And we don't even know the extent of it.
And we probably won't for a very long time, if at all.
And this is something to be outraged at, absolutely outraged at.
We need to be as loud and as vocal and as annoying as we possibly can be.
And I know I'm speaking to the right people for this, because we can do all of that.
Yes, Alex?
I was unaware of these disclosures with respect to the NRO.
The NRO is quite a secretive organization, part of the intelligence community, a joint endeavor between CIA and the Air Force.
And believe it or not, I've been there a couple of times inside the NRO.
Even the location of the NRO is, I believe, still classified.
But I will tell you this, that when you go inside the NRO, it feels like what the CIA looks like on TV.
It is actually that cool.
It's that neat.
And the technology at issue and the satellites that you're - well, all of the different data relating to the satellites that they own and operate is really just kind of fascinating.
It was a very, very cool place.
But it's also just so obvious that it's part of the intelligence community that making these types of disclosures is just beyond mystifying to me.
Well, not if you don't care.
Not if you feel that you're the richest person on earth and can do whatever they damn well please.
And right now, they can.
All right, let's go to some listener mail.
OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
You can write in and maybe we'll read you a letter on the air.
You're off the hook.
I'm tired of hearing about the guardrails of democracy.
They failed.
The ship of state has been heading for the fascist iceberg since January 6th.
Ray Charles could have seen this outcome.
There are opportunities to prevent the tangerine tyrant from once again staining the White House, but they were not vigorously pursued, even though alarms and lights were flashing red since January 6th.
And now we're sinking.
Water is pouring in, and the outcome is becoming clearer with each passing hour.
I am 77 and a great-grandfather who fears for my children's future.
What a horrible legacy.
Gil Scott Heron's Winter in America resounds.
And I stream WBAI from Baltimore, Maryland.
Signed GKS.
And GKS, thank you for that heartfelt letter.
And with people like you, the future gets a little brighter.
And we need to not give up.
We need to not be cowed into submission.
We need to speak out whenever we can.
And this place, WBAI, is one way of doing that.
You know?
And that's why I'm so grateful that it's here.
So thank you for your letter.
Here's another one.
Hi, everyone.
Thank you for decades of awesomeness.
Decades of awesomeness.
Wow.
In reference to Alex speaking on the deterioration of democracy in America, I would suggest reading how civil wars start and how to stop them by Barbara F. Walter.
She writes about how democracies are weakened and turned towards more authoritarian forms of government by turning into an anocracy.
Yes, anocracies have some semblance of democracy, but their institutions are weakened by, dare I say it, what many of the things Trump and his ilk are pushing to change.
It's worth a read in order to be able to see what is happening now in the U.S.
That's how civil wars start and how to stop them by Barbara Walter.
Not Barbara Walters, Barbara Walter.
Thanks for everything.
Signed, Chip.
Chip, thank you for that pointer.
And we will certainly check that out.
Anocracies, huh?
You perked up at that, Kyle.
Yeah, I read a little bit.
I read the article from that.
They sent a link.
There's a great, great read on Wikipedia about that.
But it is a great, I guess, characterization, way to refer to this impending era, I guess.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we're pretty much in the middle of the impending.
Oh, yes, Rob, go ahead.
Yeah, I think to sum up what a lot of us have been saying on this program tonight and other nights, it's vital more than ever that you get out there and you talk with people.
Talk about what's going on out there.
Talk about what's important.
And whether that's talking, you know, with people online, in person, in person is even more vital.
People in your neighborhood, people in your area, people in your circles of friends, colleagues, just people you deal with.
Talk about this because it is very easy for anybody who is terrified by what's going on to feel entirely alone in all of it.
And it is vital to remember that.
No, you are not alone.
There are lots of others like you.
There are lots of others who can help you deal with the all sort of general mishmash of everything right now and possibly get together some efforts to fight it.
So, yeah, go out there.
Talk with folks.
Yeah, and, you know, don't be too judgy as far as who you're talking to because you will find people who disagree with you on some things but agree with you on the important things.
And this is not the time to be super selective.
The important thing is, do we care about the future of the country?
Do we care about democracy?
If so, then we can work together.
All right.
We have time for one more letter.
Good afternoon.
I meant to send this much earlier in the week rather than close to your next airing.
In fact, it came in this evening or late this afternoon.
In your latest episode of Off the Hook, you discuss the FCC's being turned against people, truth on TV or radio, with a CBS station in particular being targeted.
I would like to call your attention to something Trump said in his inauguration speech, which the first one, he gave several that day.
After years and years of illegal and unconstitutional federal efforts to restrict free expression, I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech in America.
Never again will the immense power of the state be weaponized to persecute political opponents, something I know something about.
But, yeah, I originally was going to quip that if that's the case, WBA, I could get away with re-airing without any omissions during regular daytime hours, George Carlin's famous slash infamous Seven Dirty Words speech.
But what is really happening is much more serious than not allowing that.
Also, thank you for that letter.
Also, the hypocrisy here is incredible because what has happened since then is exactly the opposite of what Trump has pledged.
He has clamped down on media outlets that, in even the slightest way, have done something to upset him.
I mean, he has banned the Associated Press from press briefings in the White House because they won't say Gulf of America.
They continue to say Gulf of Mexico, which is the legitimate name.
And for that, they are banned.
There are many, many other examples involving broadcast entities and people who basically are fact-checking becoming enemies of the state.
These points are great.
I would encourage people that this is itself a medium that requires us to adhere to certain things.
It actually makes us better at making our points, better at discourse in general.
And it is stifling sometimes.
We'd love to be able to be unbridled.
And we can't sit through a lot of things where you have to be sort of socially careful.
This avenue, this method does help.
But we're also energized by your support.
So please say something nice to a hacker if you can so that places like this and people like us are energized and around.
And call 833-WBAI-NYC or go to buddy.wbai.org, pledge whatever you can afford.
And we will continue the conversation on Overtime, YouTube, Channel 2600, or go to the link on top of the 2600.com webpage.
You're not alone.
We'll be back next week.
Good night.
Stay strong.
Well, you wonder why I always dress in black
Why you never see bright colors on my back
And why does my appearance seem to have a somber tone
Well, there's a reason for the things that I have on
I wear the black for the poor and the beaten down
Living in the hopeless, hungry side of town
I wear it for the prisoner
Who has long paid for his crime
But is there because he's a victim of the time
I wear the black for those who've never read
Or listen to the words that Jesus said
About the road to happiness through love and charity
Why you think he's talking straight to you and me
Well, we're doing mighty fine, I do suppose
In our streak of lightning cars and fancy clothes
But just so we're reminded of the ones who are held back
Up front there ought to be a man in black
I wear it for the sick and lonely old
For the reckless ones whose bad trip left them cold
I wear the black and mourning for the lives that could have been
Each week we lose a hundred fine young men
And I wear it for the thousands who have died
Believing that the Lord was on their side
I wear it for another hundred thousand who have died
Believing that we all were on their side
But there's things that never will be right
I know
And things need changing everywhere you go
But till we start to make a move
To make a few things right
You'll never see me wear a suit of white
Oh, I'd love to wear a rainbow every day
And tell the world that everything's okay
But I'll try to carry off a little darkness on my back
Till things are brighter
I'm the man in black


And welcome everybody here on YouTube as we start yet another episode of Off the Hook Overtime.
Kyle, are you here in YouTube land?
Yes, physically.
Wow. And yeah, Rob, are we actually on YouTube this time?
Yes, indeed. We are on YouTube. I am here.
I am here as well.
And Alex, where the hell is Alex?
Seriously, Alex, can you stay put for a little while?
I think he stepped away.
Yeah, well, you know, I'd like to step away too sometimes.
Okay, he's running.
I'd like to step the hell away.
He's running back.
I want to step away to the other side of the damn planet.
Hi, Alex. Welcome back.
Welcome. Yes, yes, yes.
Just talking about you.
All right. Perfect. There you go.
So, yeah.
That's what Overtime sounds like.
Wonderful.
So, you know, I'd like to look at a story here.
Which is kind of funny.
Encyclopedia Britannica tells Trump to take a hike.
What do you think that's about?
Well, the longest running in-print encyclopedia is not going along with Trump's order to say Gulf of America.
Encyclopedia Britannica will continue to use Gulf of Mexico.
The encyclopedia posted to X, formerly Twitter, to its more than 60,000 followers.
Trump has decreed, and that's exactly what he's done.
He's decreed that the international body of order, which borders Mexico, the United States, and other nations, be called the Gulf of America.
And Britannica said it wasn't going along with Trump's order for a few reasons.
We serve an international audience, a majority of which is outside the U.S.
The Gulf of Mexico is an international body of order, and the U.S.'s authority to rename it is ambiguous.
It has been called the Gulf of Mexico for more than 425 years.
But it's important to note the distinction between international and domestic areas.
It's like they're teaching him, you know, if he paid attention, he'd actually learn something.
Yeah, so basically, Trump's administration made headlines after they barred the Associated Press from presidential events.
In its influential stylebook, the AP said it would continue to use Gulf of Mexico,
while also noting Trump's decision to ensure that names of geographical features are recognizable around the world.
The White House's outright attempt at regulating language used by independent media and the punitive measures attached to it mark a sharp escalation in Trump's often-fraught dealings with news organizations.
On Tuesday, AP reporters were blocked from attending events in the Oval Office and the White House's diplomatic reception room.
While an AP reporter was in the White House briefing room on Wednesday for various remarks from somebody else,
they were turned away at a later event in the Oval Office for the swearing-in of Tulsi Gabbard as national intelligence director.
You don't want to miss that.
Julie Pace, AP senior vice president and executive editor, wrote to White House chief of staff Susie Wiles,
The actions taken by this White House were plainly intended to punish the AP for the content of its speech.
It is among the most basic tenets of the First Amendment that the government cannot retaliate against the public or the press for what they say.
Well, that's certainly not the case today.
And it's also, you know, interesting to note who did comply.
I know Google complied, and they are saying Gulf of America everywhere.
And many other news agencies also, I believe, are basically obeying.
Does anyone ever think about the magnitude of wealth it took to captivate this president for these tech companies and Musk?
Like, his net worth and then his contribution, like $200 million, like, if you're worth $100,000, is that like $100 or $200?
Like, comparatively, they got this for cheap.
Like, crazy cheap.
Like, think about that.
That's...
Well, do they have it, though?
Well, as far as they're concerned.
Because I guarantee you, Elon Musk believes he owns the country right now.
Right.
And he probably does, because, you know, Trump is not going to cross him, even though inevitably they are going to be at loggerheads.
But he is not going to cross his bank, because Musk has so much more money than Trump does.
Well, and think about comparatively how much money was spent protecting all of these systems.
Like I was talking about earlier, the security industrial complex that we feed taxpayers huge contracts, feeding, feeding, feeding, keeping everything locked down, secure, compartmentalized, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, updated.
Okay?
Same thing with the phone system, except they don't spend anything on it.
They just send dividend checks.
But all of that money, maybe upwards of trillions over however much time period, was now literally, in hacker terms, owned by these non-elected bureaucrats.
That's fascinating to me.
That's the blackmail they're being held with, because if they don't change silly names on their maps or something, the specter of disadministration going after them, and then fines being levied in some way, or their penalties emerging that are otherwise only basically being sought by the EU, people with a spine, and elsewhere.
But it's kind of hilarious, the numbers, if you just think about it.
And we're at a stage where we can still laugh about these things, but that stage is going to come to an end, and people will have their lives destroyed.
People will be put in prison.
People will be killed.
That is inevitably the direction you go.
Go ahead, Gila.
Well, first, I mean, people are already starting to die.
But on a slightly lighter note, thanks to frequent listener and contributor Tim in Connecticut, who pointed us toward an article on Axios.com, Mexico is threatening to sue Google over this issue.
Over saying, a press conference on Monday, Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum argued that Google's decision to change its map labels was incorrect, because Trump's order only applied to the U.S. continental shelf in the Gulf.
So, Mexico is now threatening to sue Google over this whole Gulf of America business.
In Trump's world, he can rename Mexico, too, right?
Because if he's renaming international bodies of water, I mean, he could call the moon Ivanka, and we'd all have to obey.
I'm not kidding.
He could do that.
This is how crazy it's getting.
You know?
And if you don't follow, you become the enemy.
I have so many critiques for the private space thing, too.
Like, there's so many people that are inspired, and they're building these things.
And you're not going to be in the same neighborhood on Mars as these people.
Well, that's a good thing, though.
I mean, yeah, it is.
Who would want to be?
Stop kidding yourself.
It's hard enough on Mars without Elon Musk being your neighbor.
Like, the 9 billion people on this planet that are trying to eat and survive, like, the death, like, the casualties for the program to get to Mars, or the casualties of all these policies on Earth, are built in.
There will be death.
Like, that is part of their calculation.
They're just ensuring it isn't them, as far as they know.
Pretty much, yeah.
Go ahead, Rob.
Yeah, going back to Encyclopedia Britannica being one of the entities affirming that, yes, it's the Gulf of Mexico, and it's not going to stop being the Gulf of Mexico because of this foolishness.
Another entity is Wikipedia.
The article is firmly in Gulf of Mexico.
If you search for Gulf of America, it will redirect you to Gulf of Mexico, to the part of the article describing this whole controversy.
And if you're one of those folks who are lucky enough to be familiar with the behind-the-scenes workings of Wikipedia, you might want to check out the talk page for the article because it's a goddamn mess.
Oh, my God.
I can imagine.
Almost as good as the one for the Middle East.
That's a lively one, too.
Yeah, but the crowd has spoken and sense is prevailing there at this point.
Little things like that.
It might seem like nothing, but this is how you resist.
This is how you start to resist.
And the more it drives him crazy, the more it drives them crazy, the more effective it is and the more you keep putting on the pressure.
You know, we're talking about how individual people are the strongest weapon, and we are.
You know, crowds of people, that's what any government fears more than anything.
And that's true of Democrats.
That's true of Republicans.
And right now, you know, as we said before, you know, those politicians, they really, their focus is getting reelected.
Their focus is not stepping too far out of line.
There are exceptions.
You know, there are a few that are, you know, outspoken, but not nearly enough.
Not nearly enough.
It would be great if they were on the front lines.
It would be great if they were disrupting Congress and getting arrested themselves, you know, and just making a royal pain in the ass to the administration for standing up for democracy.
That's their job to do that.
They're not doing it.
Not yet.
Maybe they will.
But I think, you know, the people will leave them.
It's up to us, really.
Someone had their hand up.
I did.
Well, Alex, too.
Gila, then Alex.
I just wanted to share that we have a comment from a listener in the chat who says one quick follow up on the comment and off the hook that politicians are doing or saying anything.
You need to watch C-SPAN channels during the day.
Democrats, senators and Republicans have been calling out the recent firings and illegal actions of the current administration on the public record.
They can't necessarily do anything other than support the current wave of lawsuits.
Did you say Democrat senators or Democratic senators?
I would have said if I had written it myself, I would have said Democratic.
But I'm just quoting.
So it's Democrat.
That's a Trump alert right there.
Right there.
No, seriously.
Language.
Language is so important to these people.
Do you notice how many Republicans just started saying Democrat senator instead of Democratic senator?
It doesn't roll off the tongue.
It doesn't make any sense.
But that's what they're commanded to say this.
And they just fall in line.
It's disgusting.
It really is.
And on the subject of C-SPAN, who did we see today, Kyle?
That was on.
L.A.
Mazzone.
Oh, my God.
You got to go on to C-SPAN.org and watch this guy.
He tears apart this administration, but he does it in such a way that gives me so much hope.
How do you spell his name?
L-E-E.
You're putting me on the spot.
E-L-I-E.
I know that.
E-L-L-I-E.
Mazzone.
He works for the nation.
Yeah.
Works for the nation.
You'll find him.
Just go on and look at the...
Mestal.
M-Y-S-T-A-L.
Okay.
Yes.
I really like him because he does not give any of the callers an inch.
No.
He absolutely goes in hard.
But he's respectful to them.
He is.
But he doesn't let them steer the logic away from logic and stays on the point.
And it's just brilliant to see him spar with them and let them say their piece and then
go right back in on exactly what he's saying.
This is such mental clarity.
I do aspire to that in my own rhetoric, but it's top-notch, top-tier.
Anytime he's on C-SPAN, it's always a real joy to watch.
I have not been following C-SPAN as much as I had been, although I did return to it a little
bit.
And I will say that listener is right.
There are a couple.
I watched a senator who is a junior member of the intelligence agency.
She was speaking.
Oh, wait.
No.
She was on cable, I think, earlier.
I don't know her name, but...
C-SPAN is cable.
Yeah.
They are speaking out on all the networks as well as C-SPAN a little bit.
But C-SPAN's doing the whole balancing and all of this stuff, as they should, but it's
not as energetic as it ought to be, considering the cost of all of this.
Hey, we can change that.
We can make it more energetic.
Yeah.
And I think the point that the senator was making, I believe, on MSNBC, or one of the
interviews today was talking about multi-pronged tactics, where there has to be, there's
litigation, obviously.
There's the media messaging, which is kind of what we do, what we're doing, what everyone
is doing that's writing and talking about it and taking calls and sparring with people
that don't agree with them or in comments or on social media.
Yeah, that's a big part of it, too.
And also action in the streets.
And then, of course, if Congress ever takes up anything and they find some GOP members
that aren't, you know, planning...
I don't want to be so dark.
Planning their final...
Working on the last...
With one foot in the grave, you know, doddering around, going along with the Republicans,
and they maybe, you know, think about their legacy as standing up for something a little
bit more noble than this next election they think they're going to have.
It might happen in the House or the Senate, but it's tough.
But there has to be...
That's about the levers that there are being the opposition of this.
But I think as the effects of these things happen, again, you're not going to be in the
same neighborhood as these people on Mars, okay?
So, like, get over it, no matter what party you're with.
And something that I've been thinking about this week is, like, we talk red and blue a
lot.
We need to just push hard for purple.
Like, there has to be a purple party where it's like, we don't care how you voted.
We don't care what, you know, what you differ on.
You're not down with this.
This isn't the country that you want now.
And so I've seen a lot of people wearing purple.
I know that's kind of a...
It's an olive branch in these times.
But I think there has to be serious dialogue about that.
I know independents have a place.
There's always been talk about the two-party, bicameral, whatever you want to, you know,
critique about it.
But in a time when there is...
It's more of a class dichotomy.
I think that that is the color.
Or there has to be...
If you're going to speak in a dialogue of two colors and you want to present something
that invites both, find something that is a mix.
Yeah.
You know, we have to apply pressure in so many different places.
And the media is one of those places.
We're part of it.
But there are many, many aspects to the media.
You might have heard this story.
There was an advertisement that was going to be in the Washington Post yesterday.
Full-page ad calling for Elon Musk to be fired from his role in government.
Yeah, and that's an essential part of democracy, being able to get your message out one way
or another.
You know, if not a news story, then a paid ad.
We've seen it a million times before.
This is how people get the word out, how you start campaigns, how you express opinions.
And that ad did not run.
It was abruptly canceled.
Common Cause was the group trying to put the ad in.
They say they were told by the newspaper on Friday that the ad was being pulled.
The full-page ad, known as a wraparound, would have covered the front and back pages of
editions delivered to the White House, the Pentagon, and Congress, and was planned in
collaboration with the Southern Poverty Law Center Action Fund.
A separate full-page ad with the same themes would have been allowed to run inside the newspaper,
but the two groups chose to cancel the internal ad as well.
Both ads would have cost the groups $115,000.
We asked why they wouldn't run the wrap when we clearly met the guidelines.
If they were allowing the internal ad, they said they were not at liberty to give us a
reason.
Now, that is a problem.
To have a newspaper owned by Jeff Bezos, I'm sure that has nothing to do with it, refuse to
run an ad, and not give a reason, and say you're not at liberty to even discuss it.
I mean, that is not a good sign for democracy.
And the Washington Post has had some problems.
Remember?
They're the newspaper that pulled the endorsement of Kamala Harris.
Yeah, it was written, ready to go.
Jeff Bezos stepped in and said, no, no, I don't want to do that.
Instead, print my piece.
I'll write a piece, you know, basically saying how we're not taking sides, you know, as if
endorsements by newspapers were unusual.
So, these things have to be called out.
Now, I know, you know, I see a lot of people who criticize New York Times, and rightfully
so.
New York Times has done some bad things, too.
But right now, they're doing a much better job than the Washington Post or the LA Times.
You know, another one of these papers that refused to say something.
So, when a paper gets it right, even if it's the first day they got it right, at least
acknowledge that.
And let's try not to destroy them, because we need these outlets.
But right now, the Washington Post is in trouble.
And I really think billionaires should not be owning newspapers.
I really think that.
I'll just, I don't know if I don't want to go on another rant again, but I couldn't sleep
the other night, and I realized one of the books I'm reading, I'm actually, I finally
made it to chapter four in The Jungle.
And if you don't know that book, it is by Upton Sinclair.
And it's a seminal book about the slaughterhouses and the Union stockyards in Chicago.
So, if you look up, I looked up the stockyards and then got curious about it after I got through
that chapter.
And if you look at the Animal Industrial Complex Wikipedia article, there's a great discussion
about Eisenhower's quote about the military industrial complex and how it's all related
and how speciesism and the food production system is at the heart of this interconnected web
of different complexes that we're all at the effect of.
And one of the interesting things about it is it's by design that people who aren't for
that are derided, like vegans and vegetarians are, they're, they're basically cast as like
wildly, you know, outside of, of what, what is normal.
And, and we're so separated from those processes that we don't actually see the point that's being
made.
And there's all these other systems that are in, that are interdependent.
And, and of course the Union stockyards had a big role in the civil war and feeding the
Union army.
And, and then of course, World War II.
So food is a big part of the, the populace, right?
And, and the, um, the genesis of expansion and capital and conquest and, and everything
about your life, everything.
So that's why I've been kind of on this like bent a little bit because I think it's really,
really relevant that the things you're talking about, like the media that is again, consolidated
and owned, that is right there to deny outside perspective, except, except for independent
and, um, whether we're talking about radio or, or, um, community efforts.
So the places that host opinion that aren't owned in that same way.
So it's, it's a really interesting, uh, framework to look at everything around you and understand
that, that, and, and this article I talked about that starting with a animal complex, it
describes how they're all interconnected, how that as soon as you act apart from the system
itself in general, you then are faced with the security complex that then puts you through
the prison complex.
I mean, it's all right there, ready to keep everything nice and neat and controlled.
So I really challenged people to think about all of that in the context of things changing
in ways that don't respect the pluralism that we've been accustomed to, that we've been sort
of comfortable, comforted by.
They make a movie of the jungle.
No, they should.
I think we should do it.
I didn't say we should do it.
Somebody should.
I'm surprised nobody's done.
Just make it an animated, uh, CGI film.
I don't know why it has to be animated.
Make it a kid's movie.
Uh, no.
E-I-E-I-O.
It's not a kid's movie.
No, I'm sorry.
It's, uh, but you know, the Manchurian Candidate, the original one from the sixties, see that,
that's, that's, that's kind of good.
We, we asked, um, uh, Google, uh, through Gemini, their AI, uh, to, um, uh, show us films
where, where, well, first we asked, um, can you, can you recommend films where, um, a foreign
leader has lost their mind and, uh, uh, uh, and, and they came right back with, um, what
was it they came back with?
Um, Dr. Strangelove.
That's right.
Dr. Strangelove.
How I learned to love the bomb.
It was the same film.
Yes.
Uh, and then we asked the same thing about the U S president and said, uh, sorry, we, we
can't answer that question.
Uh, we, we don't want to get something wrong.
Just complete intimidation by AI.
It was kind of sad to see.
Um, so, uh, we need to use a better, a better service, but also, you know, see where, where
some companies are too afraid to actually say anything that could be viewed as either
controversial or offensive to the powers that be.
Now, speaking of the powers that be, uh, we're getting back to Jeff Bezos.
I went to a common cause.org.
They're the group that tried to put out the ad.
Here's the ad.
Here's the text of the ad.
Who's it's basically a picture of Elon Musk behind the white house, a giant Elon Musk behind
the white house, uh, who's running this country on the flag is half staff too, which is kind
of nice.
Uh, who's running this country, Donald Trump or Elon Musk since day one, Elon has created
chaos and confusion and put our livelihoods at risk.
And he is accountable to no one, but himself.
The constitution only allows for one president at a time.
Call your senators and tell them it's time.
Donald Trump fire Elon Musk.
No one elected Elon Musk fire musk.org.
That's the whole thing.
That's the whole ad, you know, I've seen more controversial, uh, um, uh, nastier ads in
my local newspaper that, you know, are no problem at all to run.
But this, this is something that Jeff Bezos and his people decided they couldn't possibly
do.
That is a problem.
That is not what this country is about.
Yes.
Gila.
Um, I do have a question from the chat, um, from a listener named Alex, who asks question
for Emmanuel.
Are we going to take phone calls tonight or what?
Alex, are you asking questions on the chat again?
Uh, I might be, I might be as a matter of fact.
Yeah.
You know, you're a lawyer.
You know this legally, legally.
We can only answer questions from listeners on my voice.
Who's got their speaker on.
You hear that, right?
Who is that?
I don't, I don't hear anything over there, but it might be, might be, might be me.
It's you, Alex.
You're causing all the trouble tonight.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I am a troublemaker.
I learned from the best though.
All right.
Then answer your own question.
All right.
Well, let's take some phone calls here.
Why not?
How does it feel?
You know, two, three, two, one, four, two, two, five.
No, I'm, I'm tired of hearing us.
Yeah.
I'm, you know, we got to hear rebel.
I didn't know he knew the number.
I just wanted to know if rich people go to jail.
What?
Regular jail?
Yeah.
Like, are too rich to jail?
Look at Bernie Madoff.
I'd rather not.
No.
Just remember.
I mean, that system does, does that.
Oh.
To whom?
Yes.
We have a call.
Oh, we don't have a ringer.
I didn't hear the phone ring.
Oh, you want ringer.
Well, you know, that way I know the phone's ringing.
The phone could have been ringing the whole time.
I would have, I would have answered it if I knew it was ringing.
Cause I, you know, I care.
Maybe I like it that way.
All right.
Good evening.
You're on offlook overtime.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
I had button pressed wrong.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
Hello.
Yes.
Who are you?
Where are you calling from?
The phone's ringing.
The phone couldn't have ringing the whole time.
Okay.
That's me.
Please turn down your radio, computer, whatever it is.
Maybe I like it that way.
All right.
Good evening.
You're on offlook overtime.
We sure sound good.
Hello.
Yes.
Go ahead and speak.
I'm sorry.
I had button pressed wrong.
Can you turn us down and use your voice?
Yes.
Where are you calling from?
I'm calling from Connecticut.
I seem to be censored in the chat.
Uh, okay.
Well, I can see why if you're talking like this in the chat.
This is hugely annoying.
Okay.
Let's move on.
8-0-2-3-2-1-4-2-2-5.
Yeah.
It's fun to play yourself back and hear the echoes and all that.
Maybe you hit a couple of touchstones, but you know, we've all moved on from the 1990s.
I think, I think the caller was legitimately confused as to what he should be listening
to, whether the phone or the YouTube, uh, transmission here.
So maybe he can call back.
It was nice to get a phone call that wasn't rebel initially.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Oh, do we have another?
Okay.
And good evening.
You are on off the hook overtime.
Go ahead.
Yes, Emmanuel.
Do you see, see what happens?
All right.
Well, uh, rebel, you're back from somewhere.
We haven't heard from you in a while, so I guess we're due.
No, I'm actually not back.
I'm, I'm still somewhere.
Um, you know, um, but I will be back next week.
Well, no, not next week.
Two weeks.
Um.
You're back now.
We hear you.
You're back now.
So it doesn't make any difference.
Okay.
We're back remotely.
But I was noticing, I was traveling.
Are you being arrested or something?
Are you in a cop car?
No, I'm not talking on the CB radio.
Okay.
Well, you know, um, it's hardly rude to talk on a CB radio while being on, um, an internet
radio show.
Okay.
Maybe I'll be clung.
So, so please don't, you know, callers just trying to annoy us tonight.
So please turn down that radio if you want to talk to us.
Okay.
What?
When I was speaking of radio, I, I was on the radio, every radio show, like I listened
to like the rap radio station, every rap radio station, because it's cold beer and hot
wings.
I mean, every radio station had that annoying kind of, the same annoying voice.
And it always took a, uh, it's the cold beer and hot wing show or it's the cold beer
and hot wing show.
Yeah.
It's every, if you listen to like the rap radio station.
Well, okay.
Let me explain what you're listening to.
When you do that, you're, you're listening to, uh, either pre-programmed crap or, or people
who are not in the city you're listening to.
Uh, that's why they don't have accents, you know, and they, they, they, they aren't in
the studio.
It's the cold beer and hot wings.
Yeah.
I mean, like, you know, like when I, like every stage of it, the same annoying voice when
I was in San Diego, I heard, I recognized the voice from San Diego or here in Michigan.
Yeah.
I mean, imagine if you heard our voices, no matter what radio you turned on, how, how much
of the hell that would be.
It would be a hack.
It would be a hack.
Yeah.
It's not a clear trap.
WBA.
I've got a, um, a, um, clear, uh, which station, um, their channel.
Oh, it's not, it's not clear channel.
It's what, what do we, that internet, um, radio that they have now?
I heard radio.
I heard WBA.
I'm not part of that, right?
No, I believe I heard is also clear channel.
Yeah.
But you can find us on tune in.
I know that much.
Really?
Yeah.
If you, if you tell your Alexa device, uh, play WBAI on, on, on tune in that it should
work.
Support.
Rebel.
You have a question from Gila.
Yes.
I have a question from Gila.
No, you, you, you have a question.
Can you stop talking for a second?
Stop talking.
Everyone stop talking.
Gila has the floor.
Thank you.
Rebel.
Do you have like a pen and a piece of paper?
Yes.
Great.
Write down the following free beer and hot wings.
Dot com slash radio hyphen stations.
And that's all the stations that play the free beer and hot wing show.
And those are the stations you can avoid as you travel around this great country of ours.
Gila, how the hell did you do that?
How'd you find that?
Looked up free beer and hot wings.
It wasn't that hard.
Well, I, yeah, but did you know that was a radio show?
I wouldn't have even thought that.
No, he's complained about this before.
We've had this discussion.
It's a syndicated, it's a syndicated morning show.
It's played all over the country.
And Rebel, these are the stations you can avoid on your travels.
I only have Rebel in my head for 10 seconds and it writes over itself.
What is the simulcast?
Don't you do simulcasting?
Like if WBAI wanted a simulcast with, let's say, WNYU in New York City, can they do it like where, when you're talking on WBAI, it also, you could hear it?
Yeah, but these are programming decisions and we have people that do this.
They have smaller stations.
There's some in upstate New York that actually called in previous weeks.
But these are programming decisions that we aren't necessarily in control of.
And a lot of those stations have different programming priorities.
And we're not syndicated or simulcast in that way because they have other talent, they have other subject matter, and we're not necessarily at the top of their list.
Point of information.
First of all, it wouldn't really be a good idea to do that because WBAI covers pretty much all WNYU's area.
But another point of information, I believe we once did that way back.
I seem to remember doing a radio show and having a guest on from WNYU who was also doing a radio show, and we broadcast each other's shows.
And now I'm going to have to find that somehow.
But I think that happened.
It's funny you picked that very station.
I remember us going there, too, at one point.
But that was for a different thing, I think, an interview.
No, I don't think we went there.
We went to WNYC.
Oh, NYC, right.
Okay, okay.
There's a lot of WNY states.
There's WNY.
WNYE.
Well, there's a lot.
There's a lot of technology that would allow that, Rebel, like streaming.
Like, they could just bring in on a machine.
Let's say in the 90s.
Right.
No, let's not say in the 90s.
This is 2025.
No, let's say, like, when WBAI was, like, when Emmanuel was talking about it.
Let's say the station was in Philadelphia.
They could do the same thing.
A different city.
Well, yeah, of course.
That would be the best scenario, is coming up in other cities that have a broadcast area.
That is syndication.
But those are usually formal arrangements.
Although we have a lot of informal people that have control of various transmitters and do this.
Oh, my God.
I found it.
Get that on AM or something, or all over the country.
I found the radio show.
I can't believe this.
April 27th, 1994.
Half of this show was a simulcast with another radio program on New York City's WNYU.
Rob from Hacktick talks about the Dutch government's attempt to outlaw encryption.
Rebel's latest phone trick.
Rebel, you're on the show where we did this.
I can't believe this.
1994.
Cloning cellular phones for legal purposes.
And this was an official day of mourning.
Does anybody want to guess for who?
Go ahead, Alex.
Wait.
1994.
April 27th, 1994.
It was an official day of mourning for somebody.
WBAI Cat.
Oh, that's a very good guess.
The WBAI Cat named Pacific Cat.
No, it was not.
It was a national day of mourning.
National day of mourning.
Well, that would be an international day of mourning.
It wasn't Jimmy Carter.
Actually, I didn't say official.
I mean, I didn't say national.
I said official.
It's an official day of mourning.
Oh, sorry.
Oh, official day of mourning.
No, this makes it way more vague.
Sorry.
Did you look it up, Gila?
I did not.
Okay.
What's your guess?
Nixon?
Yes, you're right.
Former President Nixon.
Oh, wow.
All right.
I'm sorry for cutting you off about the 90s, Rebel.
Check out the big brains on Gila there.
You know your history.
So now, if that station was not in New York City and it was in like Philadelphia or Chicago,
you would be able to do the same thing, right?
What?
You mean simulcast?
You can simulcast anywhere.
That's the nature of simulcasting.
Okay, but it's the same principle.
What if it doesn't matter where?
Okay.
Yeah.
What's the principle that we're talking about here?
We would love to.
Yes.
Yeah.
All you have to do is be able to hear the signal of the other station either over the
air or through some kind of connection like what we have here.
You could just hold your CB radio and transmit while the show's going.
Just hold it for an hour.
No, you can't do that.
That's specifically illegal on CB to do things like that.
Oh, is it?
You notice you never hear top 40 music on CB radio.
There's a reason for that.
Not nearly enough.
First of all, people can't hold the microphone button that long, but also that's not what
it's for.
Although people do it anyway.
I just want Rebel to make friends.
Go ahead, Rebel.
How did you do it in the 90s?
You know, physics worked the same way in the 1990s, so really no difference.
Okay.
You mean as far as, okay, so we didn't have internet connectivity like we do now, so in
cases like that, you would have to use some kind of a telephonic connection, or dare I
say, a satellite connection, or just not do it as readily.
That implies there's more.
I think we're pretty much at an end.
One more point, Rebel.
Okay.
Well, when you go to like a website, like an airline website, and put your plane ticket
or whatever, but they're able to do things on their end in the office that you can't
do on the website.
How does that work?
They have some kind of management or back-end control, right?
Like, they are an associate of that firm, and they have access as an employee to do certain
higher-level functions than what you could do as a customer.
I see.
It varies.
All right.
Food for thought.
Thanks for calling.
Yes.
Thank you very much for that.
802-3214-225 is our telephone number.
And we'll turn it back over to the people on the Skype land who have been quiet.
We have been quiet, but enjoying the show so far.
The show is not for you to enjoy.
The show is for you to make better and add to.
So, quick shout to the 64 people who are with us online right now.
I have a lot of people tonight.
A lot of people.
Yeah.
A lot of people.
And thank you, everybody, for participating for...
Hey, we're now up to 65.
And we did have a guest in the chat that the death that was being mourned then was Princess
Diana, which, you know, that didn't happen until 1997.
But, yeah, I mean, fascinated by the idea of a day of mourning for Richard Nixon being observed
on a Pacifica station.
No, I didn't say it was being observed on a Pacifica station.
I said it was an official day of mourning that day.
Ah, okay.
Yeah, that's what the description of the show says.
So, you know, historical context.
Something we could talk about decades in the future, which we're doing.
We have a phone call.
Oh, boy.
Okay.
Good evening.
You're on off-look overtime.
Go ahead.
Hello, guys.
This is the guy from Queens.
How are you?
Hey, guy from Queens.
How are you doing?
I'm the guy with the talk, and I'm about to start a fight with you guys.
Ah, please don't.
We've had enough.
Just tell us how your dog is, all right?
My dog is great, but...
What kind of dog is it?
Let me put it, if I disagree with you on something.
All right.
You were on VAI talking about the congested pricing, and you guys just think, you know,
you think everybody agrees with you.
That's not true.
Oh, I know people don't agree with us.
When New Jersey came out today and said, I thank, you know, the president.
I'm not saying I love Trump, but what I am saying is that there's a lot of people from
Queens, Nashville County, and it's just the pricing.
I am well aware of that.
And also, you should know that I think the governor of New Jersey is an idiot.
He's a Democrat, so there you go.
I'm criticizing Democrats, which people say we don't do.
You have a right to call someone an idiot, but if people don't agree with you, you don't
want to hear from them, it's like, be your way or the highway.
Well, we put you on every time, don't we?
So, of course, we want to hear people.
If they have, you know, intelligent things to say, absolutely.
And we try and engage with, you know, the facts and the points and things like that.
And, you know...
Okay, let's talk about the facts.
Oh, boy.
Suggested pricing.
Uh-huh.
Nine dollars a day.
There are people that have to use cars.
There are firemen who are now not coming with their cars.
You have people like firemen who would go from firehouse to firehouse using their personal
car.
Now they're taking fire engines and you're having extra delay.
You're having businesses in the city that are losing business because people won't come
in for dinner and stuff like that.
But I'm pretty sure first responders either are exempt or should be exempt.
I would definitely agree with that.
They should be exempt.
Right.
But you also have people who travel through.
You're in New Jersey and you're trying to come in and you want to go up to West, Jeff.
You've got to come in through New York.
Those guys are getting congested pricing.
You want to go into New York.
What about people who service equipment?
You know, you've got people who might come into the city to service electrical equipment
or you have trucks that are making delivery.
This is all posted.
All these people charge for their services and they can share the extra expense of $9 or less
a day with the people that pay them.
Yeah, but then you're causing inflation.
When you're causing inflation that is not necessary, people are not going to do it for free.
If you have a truck that comes in to deliver, you know, food or whatever, they have to pay.
They don't pay $9.
They're paying $50, $60.
Whatever they're paying for this congested price, they'll pay more than a regular.
Yeah, trucks pay more.
That is correct.
Trucks pay more.
So now what happens, they add that to the price of food.
So who's the one who gets paid?
But, you know, the truck, the 18-wheel trucks, they have multiple stops that they make in the city.
You know, I've seen businesses say that they have to pass the charge on.
And what they say is they're passing the entire charge on.
But it's obvious that the suppliers that drop by those businesses have other businesses to supply as well, you know.
So to say that you have to charge the customer that much extra, you know, we looked this over with, I think it was Hampton Jitney,
was a bus service that hadn't been initially exempt from the fee.
And we did the math.
And if the bus was even half full, the extra charge that they were piling on, they'd be making something like 50% more than they were making before for all the fares that they were charging.
So we're seeing a lot of people take advantage of the confusion here.
Another thing, you know, I saw this was actually reported on the news that people are parking above 59th Street.
They're parking in the Upper East Side, the Upper West Side.
It's horrible.
All these people driving around looking for free parking on the street.
Right.
And they're parking on the street.
And then they're taking mass transit downtown to their jobs.
And I'm supposed to believe that they're throwing $3 each way onto the subway or bus.
So a total of $6 per day to save the extra $3 that the $9 congestion fee would have been.
Does that not seem a bit unrealistic?
Well, people are going to do what they're going to do.
Look at what you're causing.
You're causing pollution in the Bronx.
You're causing pollution in Queens.
Because people are riding around looking for...
No, I'm not causing pollution.
The people who are driving are causing pollution.
They don't have to drive.
They can take mass transit.
And if they're in a place that doesn't have mass transit, you know, that's a problem of that area that should be addressed.
Why don't they have mass transit?
It's a city.
You know what, I'll be honest, I take accessorite.
But if I was...
And I could also travel on the subway.
I'm not going to travel on the subway for one reason.
Because of safety.
People are getting pushed onto trains.
All kinds of other stuff.
When you go on trains, they smell.
And that's it.
If they want people to use the subways, then they have to give you a better service.
Because people are going to do whatever is in their best.
So, okay.
So, you're against paying a fee to drive into the city.
And you're also against paying for the subway.
I mean, what's left?
Well, what about all the people that are jumping at turnstiles and not paying to get into the city?
So, you're saying that the people who have cars should subsidize.
Because if the MTA would go after all the fare beaters, then they would not have this deficit.
Well, that would certainly help.
But fare beaters have been around forever.
It's nothing new.
And guess what?
You've got a lot of people.
You've got all the people in Nassau County who are against it.
They filed lawsuits.
So, what the federal government came in and said, we're going to stop this congestive pricing.
They had a right to do it because, hey, it's up to the Federal Highway Commission to grant this permission.
This was never – this was a test thing.
So, the city did it on the test.
So, guess what?
The president, when he ran, he told the people, I'm going to stop this.
So, a lot of people voted for him.
That's why he did – he did better in New York than they thought he did.
But don't states have some rights, though?
Do down states have some rights?
Yes, they do.
But also people coming in.
Okay?
The people downstate who might be in favor of this don't drive cars.
But a lot of people do.
Yeah, but they live.
They live in the place.
They live in that city.
So, it's their streets that are being affected.
They're the ones that have to deal with more traffic and more pollution.
Don't they get a say?
Guess what?
If people – yes, they get a say.
But guess what?
If the people from Connecticut, New Jersey say, you know what?
We're going to boycott the city.
We're not going to come in to dinner and stuff like that.
People are coming in only because they have to.
But if the people who have, you know, discretionary time and say, you know what?
I don't want to come in.
I am not going to come in and pay $9 plus tolls and all of this.
I'm not going to go to the restaurant.
Who does that hurt?
That hurts the poor person who is, you know, working as a waiter.
How much do you think it costs to eat in a restaurant in New York City in the first place?
You know, extra $9 for something you're not doing every day, I don't think is a deal breaker.
Well, some people come in two or three times.
Maybe you think it's a deal breaker, but some people do think it's a deal breaker.
So if they're willing, if they make that choice, that's what a free system is.
That's what a capitalist system is.
Well, they'll go out to eat somewhere where they live then, and that's less pollution
and more business for their local business.
It seems like everyone wins one way or another.
No, because they're already starting to see that businesses are laying off.
People in New York, and by the way, you're going to have a bunch of these big corporations,
which I know you guys don't like, they're going to come out and say at some point,
you know what, we're going to pull our offices out of the city.
They're having a hard time getting people to come back to work.
They need people to come back to work so that they spend the money in the city,
and the city can get that tax money.
Everybody wants to work from home.
I have no problem working from home, if people want to.
But if you're going to keep putting roadblocks and making it more and more expensive
and taking away more places for cars, and by the way, bikes are not the safest thing.
Because of cars, they're not the safest thing.
No, because when you step out of the curb, bikes are going in the wrong direction.
They don't follow the traffic laws.
They're very dangerous.
Blind people are getting hurt.
I agree with that.
I totally agree with that.
I don't see how it relates to this.
But certainly, bikes should follow basic rules as well.
Absolutely.
Rob has a point.
They ride along those little bike lanes that are so close to the...
Well, you know, that's another thing.
I don't know if you heard this, but Trump wants to get rid of bike lanes, too.
Somehow he thinks he can go in and just get rid of bike lanes.
You think that's going to make things safer for pedestrians?
Because bikes will be everywhere then.
There won't be bike lanes for them.
The big question I have for our neighbor from Queens, because...
Hang on.
You've got all these bike things here.
So when you try to find your way onto the street, it's so hard.
New York City, as a blind person...
Right.
They could do a better job.
I totally agree with that.
They could do a better job.
But you can't just pretend they don't exist.
Rob has a point.
Go ahead, Rob.
Yeah, the big question I have for our neighbor from Queens, because I'm also from Queens,
is, you know, taking the issue of congestion pricing and taking that as something that
was decided by our local government.
There were fights about it.
Everyone disagrees about it.
But the local government and the people studying the local traffic structures decided this was
a good idea to go and try.
And it was put in place.
Do you think that the president, the head of the Republican Party, the party of small
government, allegedly, should be able to step in and tell a city government that, you
know, you can't do this thing the way you chose to.
You can't do this thing the way your people voted to.
You can't do this thing.
Do you think the president is the one to make that call, one way or another, whether you're
for it or against it?
Do you think that the president should be able to step in and make these decisions?
The city of New York and the governor put it to a vote for the people in New York City
and the surrounding area asking what the public says, let's have a referendum on it.
OK, as far as the president, well, you have this involves interstate commerce.
This involves cars that are traveling from New Jersey, Connecticut, wherever, Pennsylvania.
They all come into the city.
So, yes, I think that the federal government has a play on it, just like the previous administration
had hearings on it.
And now the federal government has it.
There's also money.
There's federal money that's involved in these cameras.
If the federal government doesn't have a right, then federal money shouldn't even be involved.
New York should do it all on its own.
No, so you have New Jersey money, you have New York money, and now you have interstate commerce.
So you have the governor of New Jersey.
Why is the governor of New Jersey doing it?
Because it hurts his people.
It causes his people to spend more money.
And he's a Democrat.
Can you cite interstate commerce as the reason for doing something within one small part of Manhattan?
He is a very liberal governor.
I don't think you heard, Rob.
I don't always agree with him, but he's looking where he's coming from.
Go ahead, Rob.
Say what you're saying again.
Can you cite interstate commerce as the reason to do something within one small part of one borough within New York City?
Going from downtown to uptown in New York City is not interstate.
Yeah, there are no federal roads in Manhattan, as far as I know.
Are there?
They're getting federal money.
Some of the department, if you look at the DLT, they get federal money.
New York gets federal money to help, even to support the city streets.
It comes under federal.
But here's another thing.
If you say there's no interstate, yes, it's a small part of New York City.
But to get from New Jersey to Long Island or to upstate New York, you have to go to New York City if you're coming from New Jersey.
So that means that.
So you must object to all the tolls that exist on the Lincoln Tunnel, the Holland Tunnel, GW.
Why don't you object to those?
No, no, I don't.
I don't.
Because the reason why I don't, because you need money to keep those things going.
The money that is being used for this congested pricing is not going to keep the streets.
The money that is paid to go for the Lincoln Tunnel, the Manhattan Tunnel, the Midtown Tunnel from Queens into the city is going only for that operation.
The money that they're collecting for these cars are going to support mass transit.
Okay, so that's what you have the problem with.
It's not the toll.
It's what it's going for.
That's what you have a problem with.
That is correct.
Okay.
I'm raising it to a point, and guess what?
That's $3 and $4 and $5 or $6, whatever they charge, and that's it.
If you want to avoid the Midtown Tunnel, you have a way of getting into the city.
Go through the 59th Street Bridge.
There's other ways to get into the city without paying a toll.
You can go through...
Not from New Jersey, there aren't.
No.
If you come in from New Jersey, you're going to pay a toll.
Right.
Because you go over the Lincoln Tunnel, whatever, but then you get hit with another toll, the
congested pricing.
But you get less of it because you're already paying a toll.
Yeah, I see that.
Go ahead, Gila.
Or you could take New Jersey Transit and not pay congestion pricing.
That's true.
I'm just saying.
Public transit, better for literally every single thing in the whole entire world.
You know what?
Not everyone owns a car.
Not everyone wants to own a car.
Can I just say one thing?
Because no one's talking about this.
All right.
When I drove my car, right, I wanted to go from New York to Pennsylvania.
And I got on the New Jersey Turnpike.
And they charged me for that.
Why do I have to pay to ride a road in New Jersey when I'm not even going to New Jersey?
I was going to Pennsylvania.
Why am I paying a New Jersey toll?
It doesn't make any sense.
I don't think that's fair.
Look, you're on that New Jersey road.
At that minute, you're on the New Jersey highway.
And that money is only to pay for the upkeep of the New Jersey highway.
So there's a Department of Highways in the state of New Jersey that you pay for.
But why does New Jersey get to decide what I pay?
Are you saying because I'm in New Jersey that I'm paying to use something in New Jersey?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
If I'm on a highway, if I'm going 50 miles, let's say I'm going how many miles I'm traveling,
yes, I'm using those roads.
I'm using the pavement.
My tires are doing damage to the pavement.
I think there's upkeep.
But not, not, okay.
What you're doing here is you're saying, we're charging $9.
None of that money is going for the upkeep of the streets.
None of that money is going to the city of New York for the upkeep of all the streets in the lower areas.
Let me explain something.
When less cars use a street, the street lasts longer.
So in effect, you know, by having less cars coming in, which has already been proven to be a result of this,
the streets aren't being as torn apart by all these vehicles.
The people in, you know, who live on those streets, the people who walk on those streets,
the people who ride bikes on those streets are reporting that it's much easier, much healthier.
And, you know, a lot of minds have been changed.
Yeah, there's always a cost.
And I think the health costs alone are worth it.
But also Alex's point earlier that you're able to actually get places.
That is a huge deal.
I mean, time spent in traffic disrupts business, disrupts people's lives, their schedules, their appointments.
And ultimately, this might be really, you know, far away from center politics.
But the amount of fuel that's wasted just sitting, waiting to get somewhere is itself a huge cost.
By using less cars, that's people saying.
And by the way, the people, not all those people are getting onto mass transit.
A lot of those people are just saying, forget it, I'm not coming into this city.
So now you have people not coming in.
I have friends who say, you know what, if I have to do business in this city,
and if I can do it on Skype or I can do it on Zoom, I'm going to do it on Zoom.
So you know what that does?
Yes, maybe that stops a little bit of pollution.
But that takes away business from a restaurant.
And that restaurant, if it does less business, it's not going to keep people up because they're altruistic.
At the end of the day, just like you guys charge $225 for your home convention, it's expenses.
And if less people come, you may raise your prices to cover your expenses.
That's just the way it works in a way.
Well, we also have a virtual option.
For $99, you can go to the conference virtually and interact with people.
So, you know, we have to adjust.
There are ways of adjusting.
But also, if enough people don't come to your home convention,
then you're going to have to raise the price of the internet.
Or realize it's not working and not do it, you know?
No.
You do things to entice people to come.
If you put on things that people like and enjoy, like, you know, the key thing, you know,
doing hacking, playing with the locksmith and using lockpicks and stuff like that,
that is enjoyable.
When you put on things that people want, then they come.
That's just the way.
Yeah, it's called attraction.
So if there are more things to do in the city,
then people will come to do those things in the city and say,
you know what, it's worth the $9 or $2.25, which is what it goes down to after peak hours.
Yeah, and restaurants closing in Manhattan, I mean, that's like a constant process.
And dare I say, that's part of our capitalist system.
If you can't connect the dots and make the numbers work,
somebody else comes in and does it.
And maybe it turns into a different kind of business.
There are a lot of restaurants closing outside of Manhattan as well.
A lot of restaurants closing in Queens, a lot of restaurants closing on Long Island.
Speaking of Long Island, you know, if I were to drive from Long Island to Manhattan,
I can drive my car from Montauk in Suffolk County,
and I can drive, take the Williamsburg Bridge, I can park for free on the street.
You know, does that seem right that there's absolutely no expense whatsoever?
You know, it seems like, you know, you should have to pay something for using all of the infrastructure,
taking up a parking space, basically driving down highways and things like that,
as opposed to paying a fare on a train.
You know, there should be something in addition to just the gas.
And I think it's this feeling of entitlement that we can just go wherever we want to go,
park in the middle, you know, of a city,
and we don't have to worry about any expense whatsoever,
because somehow it's all working out.
It's not working out.
That's the message that's being conveyed here.
This has happened in other cities.
It's happened in London.
It's happened somewhere in Sweden.
It's happened in Singapore.
And in every case, there's been opposition at the beginning,
and that opposition has gotten less and less as the program takes effect,
because people see the results.
They see better infrastructure.
They see better mass transit.
They see less pollution.
They see less traffic.
They see more walking around.
It's, you know, it's something that, you know, it's a process.
This is the first time in the United States this has happened,
but it's something that, you know, we're starting to get used to.
And, you know, I would support, maybe our caller would agree on this.
I would support having this program in place for, say, a year,
and then having a referendum on it, you know, from the people affected,
the people in New York.
And sure, you know, the whole state.
Why not?
The whole state of New York.
I guarantee you New York City will overwhelmingly support it,
and I don't think there would be enough opposition
in the rest of the state to defeat it.
But let's see.
Let's see what happens after a year of this program,
see if things actually get better.
And if people decide, you know what, I don't want things like that,
I want things back the way they were, I can accept that.
I would have no problem with doing that.
But also, when you say it's free, you know, it's not really free.
People take taxes.
And the purpose of doing this is for the common good.
If you have federal taxes, you have city taxes, you have payroll taxes,
the city takes money in.
And the reason you have streets for people to get around is for commerce.
If that's what it's for, you know, yes, could we have more efficient cars,
less pollution?
Absolutely.
Over the time we've come out with catalytic converters,
we realize that there's pollution.
But as far as saying that people want a free ride, you know,
they pay a gas tax, they pay a state gas tax.
You pay hundreds of dollars for your license, for the tax on a car,
for the registration.
Yeah, I'm talking about one ride, one ride into the city.
You don't pay all that.
That goes into the common pool.
That goes into the common pool to help each other and to help businesses.
And by people coming into the city, you create more business.
People come in for plays.
People come in for a lot of stuff.
Yes, I would have no trouble in saying, okay, let's do this for one year
and then let the people of New York vote on it and the entire state.
Okay, look, we agree on this.
So let's tell Trump, let's give us a year.
Let's see how it goes.
And we'll decide on our own.
We don't need your help.
I think that works out great.
I probably would have no trouble.
I probably would have no trouble with that.
But that's not what the, you would not, if you ask for that,
you get no agreement.
I guarantee you that the governor of the state of New York
would not be in agreement.
The reason why this is happening is because MTA can't handle their own money.
Look, I see how they waste money.
I am an accessorite user, and I can tell you how they waste money so badly
and how corrupt they are and how they do things for their own benefit.
And that's the problem with MTA.
They got a hole in their pocket, and they just, it's just very bad.
I don't know how to address that.
I don't have access to that information.
But, you know, I'm looking at the effects of this one program.
Listen, we've spent a lot of time on this,
so I hope you realize that we're not shy about talking to people we disagree with.
And I'm sure we'll have more to talk about in the future.
Thank you, guys.
Great talking to you.
All right.
Be well.
So there.
Those are my, and you know, I have one other thing, too.
You know, they charge me sales tax in New Jersey.
What am I paying sales tax in New Jersey for?
I don't live in New Jersey.
Why should I pay sales tax in New Jersey?
Huh?
I should be exempt from that.
I'm not a resident.
All right?
Whatever that tax is going to, I don't benefit from.
It's not fair.
It's not fair.
You know, that's life.
I learned something.
I didn't realize that there was off-peak congestion prices.
Absolutely, yes.
It was $9 all the time.
Not all the time.
Okay.
And it's 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. on the weekends, I guess.
Those are the off-peak hours.
And then 9 p.m. to 5 a.m. during the weekdays.
That wasn't me hiccuping, by the way.
That was somebody else.
It's important that you point that out.
Okay.
All right.
Yes.
But I tend to agree mostly with the caller.
You know my position on the congestion charge.
I'm just a bit puzzled by it because you don't drive a car that much.
And you keep your car in a garage.
And you're paying a lot more than $9 to do that.
Yeah.
Which is why I don't need another $9 on top of all this.
But, you know, you're only paying when you leave.
Actually, no, not when you leave.
When you enter the city.
So if you go somewhere, you don't pay.
But if you come back, you pay $9 or $2.75.
And then you're paying God knows how much to keep your car in a garage all month.
So I don't think this is the hill to die on here.
I really don't.
It's about principle, though.
But, no, you know, why is it about principle only when you disagree?
Where's the principle for every other tax and fee?
Well, I don't necessarily disagree.
I mean, I told you I'm very pragmatic about it.
And I think I'm in support of it because I like the effect.
Yeah, you commented on an easier commute, which, you know, I think that's worth whatever it is you're paying, which is next to nothing.
I agree with that, actually.
I do.
But I think the principle of it is atrocious.
And I tend to agree with the caller on this, especially with regard to his comments that this was a measure that was taken to fund the MTA when they are completely inept at managing their own money and managing their own finances.
Why don't you dive into that issue and help them manage their money better?
Because it seems like no matter what, they're going to be condemned for managing their money poorly.
Well, they have a massive, massive budget that's entirely mismanaged.
They have a massive amount of things to take care of.
It's a pretty big system.
It's huge.
Well, so do I.
But, you know, I don't have to.
You're comparing yourself to the MTA?
Yeah.
Do you know how much rail costs?
Do you have one elevator that you have to maintain?
No, I don't think so.
As a matter of fact, yes, yeah.
But look, if I had several millions of dollars to spend on, let's say, maintaining an elevator or repairing an elevator, I mean, things would just get done.
But look, they throw money around.
They have these massive projects that go way over budget.
I think the government contractors that are living off the teat of the MTA for decades now, those are the types of activities that should be audited.
There could be a tremendous amount of savings made from reallocating and auditing.
Maybe when Elon is done with the feds, he can come to New York and cut the MTA for you.
I wouldn't welcome him, but I would certainly welcome somebody looking into this.
You're going to get somebody like him, you know, if you open the door to this kind of thing.
The result you're going to find out is that they don't want mass transit at all.
The people that take an interest in auditing, like you say, or like maybe the thing about taxes, like, yeah, taxes, we have all these taxes.
But everybody who talks about taxes like that doesn't want to pay another dime.
Did you notice?
Did you notice the issue?
The issue in the end with our caller wasn't so much the tax or the fees.
It was mass transit.
He didn't want to pay anything for mass transit.
And I think it's I think it's a hostility towards mass transit that that comes.
Absolutely.
Oh, I don't think so.
I think you're painting way too many people with the same brush.
Well, because I hear them talking with that brush.
All right.
People say they're going to get pushed onto subway tracks.
I mean, I'm hearing that constantly every time someone suggests, yeah, take the subway instead.
Oh, I don't want to go there.
It's too it's too dangerous.
It's it's no more dangerous than it was in the past at all.
OK, but here's here's an all media perception.
This is all a red herring, because the point at issue here, I think fundamentally, and which
is the one that I want to make, is that taxing people should not be the first reaction of
government here.
They should look into their budgets and managing them and managing the money that we give them
through all of our other tax means before they start implementing additional taxes.
If they did that and they said, you know what, we're going to need help from the taxpayer
here to maintain this infrastructure, to reduce traffic, et cetera, I'd be all for it.
OK, well, this has been going on for decades.
This was suggested by Bloomberg, a Republican.
All right.
So obviously, they've been at this a while.
This isn't this isn't a brand new thing.
It just finally got done, you know, and these things cost a lot of money.
Look, I want to see the Second Avenue subway finished in my lifetime.
You know, I want to see a more modernized fleet.
They have invested so much and they've improved the system quite a bit, but it cost a huge amount
of money.
And we're not just talking about the subway.
We're not just talking about buses.
We're talking about commuter lines as well, you know, and all kinds of things that we just
take for granted.
Well, yeah, maybe maybe we disagree, but I don't think we disagree of scrutiny and within
and into the MTA and the and the contracting situations.
Well, one way or another, if you look, there's a couple of ways this can go.
Things can just completely fall apart and not be maintained.
And we've we've experimented with that back in the 70s or we can raise the the fares and
that will be inevitable if there's no income coming in from congestion pricing.
The money's got to come from somewhere or basically someone is going to figure out where
all this money is going.
Well, and leaning it up, I don't think is investing.
Right.
Like if you get your wish and you go completely austere, that's not an investment.
And you need to invest in a system like this.
It just it seems to me that the desire is just to basically put it on life support and
pray it keeps working in an emergency or, you know, whenever people actually who use
it.
But I just completely disabling the the the kind of expanding or modernizing efforts doesn't,
I think, benefit the people as much as we think.
I don't I don't disagree with with that, but I'm just asking for something very simple,
which is just competent, accountable government.
You need to go to more meetings.
But the accounting is that straight before you start reaching into my pocket.
OK, but that, you know, when people say things like that, they never get to the point where,
OK, that's settled.
Now, here's some more money for you.
You never get there.
And please don't don't try to fool me by saying, oh, yeah, this is going to take this
and then I'll be happy to pay more.
You're never going to be happy to pay more.
You're going to put it on life support and then never redirect any of the savings from
it.
It'll never go to anything else.
It'll just be OK.
I don't have to pay.
And then I get to go and complain about being pushed in front of the subway.
Can we stop talking about mass transit now?
I mean, for God's sake, we spend more time in mass transit than we have on anything else
this this this evening.
Yeah, it's a it's a big deal.
It is a big deal.
And Trump should not be allowed to do this.
I think that's something we should all agree on, whether or not we believe that congestion
pricing is a good idea, as it's proven to be in every other place that's been implemented.
But regardless, we can put that aside.
Having this this dictator come in and impose his will against the will of the people of
New York or, you know, basically the system that we have now that is in its infancy, but
is showing promising signs.
Let it at least either prove itself to be a success or disaster.
We don't need him.
Well, did you see the imagery that was coming out of the White House today on their Twitter
account?
I mean, it was unbelievable.
I thought it was fake.
I thought this was some kind of parody White House account that I was seeing.
But you got to fill me in on this.
I have not been looking at their feet.
It was unbelievable.
I mean, Rob is shaking his head here, too.
I mean, he can back me up here.
It was really weird.
OK, enough prelude.
What is it?
It was a portrait of Trump basically dressed as a king and styled underneath.
It was something like King of New York or King of the U.S.
I can't remember what it was, but long live the king.
What did it say?
It says long live the king.
Long live the king.
He said that he said that underneath what he what he said about congestion pricing.
You're saying in addition to that, he said more in addition to that.
This was on that post.
And it was it's an illustration that's like a mock up of a Time magazine cover, except
instead of time, it says Trump and the text long live the king on this image of Trump
wearing a crown.
This is very clearly artwork made by generative A.I., because, you know, he's not paying a
goddamn artist.
And it is it is terrifying to see this sort of thing coming from the official White House
account.
OK, no, he's not.
He's lost it.
That's it.
He's lost it.
He's out.
Hang on, though, because we've got to do something.
We've got to do something.
He's the other.
This is not the worst thing that's come out of the White House social media in the last
couple of days.
What's the worst I heard of in the last 10 seconds?
All right.
Are you ready?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
They did some videos of people being rounded up by ice and they like labeled it deportation
ASMR.
OK, president down or cow.
Wow.
OK, well, you know, there's not much I can I can say to that, except that we are facing
a real crisis in this country and we have to do something about it or pay the consequences
and there will be consequences.
Does I think that affect everybody, no matter what angle you're coming from?
So maybe we can all realize that at least.
Hang on.
I need a hard drink here.
Thank you.
You know, I don't drink.
I'm a lifelong teetotal, but sometimes I understand.
Yeah.
We'll be happy to do this again with non-argumentative, but also argumentative people.
And we can do argumentative hard.
Let's go.
Never let it be said that we shy away from from arguing or hearing out other people.
We just don't want to do it all the time because it gets really exhausting.
And, you know, we've had these arguments many times.
So on some things, it's settled like the Earth is round.
I think we've got that settled.
Gravity is mandatory, you know, that kind of stuff.
And vaccines work.
Yeah.
Just to piss some people off.
I think we're done for tonight, right?
Mm hmm.
Yes, we have some machines to own.
Yeah, you know, on that note, there are all kinds of ways of handling this.
Just be smart in what you do.
And you can always talk to us, OTH at 2600.com and our various social media outlets as well.
Yeah, well, we'll keep updating people in various ways.
And we'll be back next week on WBAI.
Looking forward to that.
And please support WBAI.
Give to WBAI.org is one website.
Or the other ones?
Or you could just go to buddy.wbai.org and it'll take you right to where you need to go.
Okay.
All right.
Cool.
Okay.
Well, thanks, everybody, for listening.
Thanks for being a part of things.
Stay strong.
You're not alone.
And we will talk to you again soon.
Bye.