We're sorry, due to telephone company facility trouble, your call cannot be completed at this time.
Will you try your call again later? Thank you.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bon diddly bon for the best, expect the worst. I hope that's understood. Bon diddly bon!
Bon diddly bon!
Bon diddly bon!
We'll be right back.
And out in Signal Land, we have Alex.
You do indeed.
Good evening.
Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
And Gila.
Good evening.
Well, a reminder.
Some people might think this is the week that we do the call-in show, and it usually is, but we decided to move it back one week.
We were having phone issues on our overtime program that airs on YouTube at 8 o'clock.
So next week at this time on WBAI, we will be taking phone calls.
So mark your calendars.
We will be open to all our listeners who have something to say and always something to look forward to.
So five-week gap this time, not a four-week gap.
So everybody adjust your calendars.
All right.
You know, I like to think I'm the cool person that still listens to what the kids have to say, you know, and tries to understand the music and tries to, you know, treat everybody as if, you know, we all have the same knowledge and background and things like that.
Try to keep an open mind, in other words.
You know, I think we all strive for that, but, you know, it's hard sometimes.
It's difficult.
So across the country, parents are being warned about an Internet trend that has students setting their school-issued Chromebooks on fire.
Yeah, it's a trend.
It's a TikTok trend.
Challenge.
It's a challenge.
What's the challenge?
You do it, and it's done.
Yeah, okay.
So school districts all across the country, you can list all the states in the nation here.
There's no point.
They've been issuing all sorts of warnings, reports from school districts, and videos.
According to Ars Technica, the so-called Chromebook Challenge includes students sticking things into Chromebook ports to short-circuit the system.
Students are using easily accessible items to do this, including writing utensils.
I believe they're known as pens, paperclips, gum wrappers, pushpins.
Do you guys have some more to add?
No?
Not in my Chromebooks, no.
I thought you had your hand up.
You wanted to add some items to that.
Oh, no.
Okay.
Well, you know, I could think of, you know, probably, you know, thumbtacks, nails, anything metallic really will work.
You know, bits of aluminum foil, perhaps.
A fork.
A fork.
A fork.
That's a good one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you already say gum wrapper?
It's a Swiss army knife.
Swiss army knife.
Yeah.
There's a bunch of things.
Pitchfork.
There's guaranteed to be something around the house or around your school that'll work.
But, yeah.
So, guys, I'm trying.
Okay.
Scissors.
Yeah.
Okay.
In Plainview, Connecticut.
I'm not sure.
Plainville, Connecticut.
I'm not sure why this one's getting attention.
A middle schooler allegedly intentionally stuck scissors into a laptop, causing smoke to emit from it.
Uh, that's according to Superintendent Brian Reese, uh, who, uh, is getting national attention because he caught the kid doing it.
Uh, that incident reportedly led to one student going to the hospital due to smoke inhalation.
And it's suspected to be connected to the viral trend.
Well, unless it started the viral trend, I'm not sure why this poor middle school student is getting all the, uh, uh, attention here.
Um, and, um, apparently they're sending him to juvenile court.
Wow.
That's the most unlucky kid in the world.
Uh, so everybody's setting their Chromebooks on fire.
And, and this, this one, uh, poor middle schooler in Connecticut is taking the, the, the heat for it all.
Um, yeah.
So, um, uh, I, you know, TikTok has banned the search term Chromebook challenge.
I'm not exactly sure how you ban a search term, but they're, they're doing it.
Uh, searching for the term brings up a message that reads as follows.
Your safety matters.
Some online challenges can be dangerous, disturbing, or even fabricated.
Learn how to recognize harmful challenges so you can protect your health and well-being.
Uh, the message includes a link to a page telling users how to assess challenges on the platform.
Uh, TikTok has said that the Chromebook challenge is on other social media platforms as well.
And, and maybe they don't block it.
Uh, Google did not respond to Ars Technica's request for comment because they don't respond to anybody.
Um, it's not the first dangerous internet sensation, uh, closely associated with TikTok in case anyone's been asleep.
Um, in, in, in 2022, for example, uh, TikTok helped catapult the, uh, Kia challenge.
Does anybody remember the Kia challenge?
No?
Oh, let me tell you about the Kia challenge.
Uh, that led to uprisings.
Actually, uprisings is the wrong word, I think.
Uh, an uprising, it sounds like something exciting.
No, basically, um, um, more Kia and Hyundai thefts, an increase in Kia and Hyundai thefts,
as well as a $200 million class action lawsuit settlement from the, uh, car manufacturers.
I'm not exactly sure, uh, what, what that was all about.
Uh, there was also the blackout challenge where people tried to choke themselves until they lost consciousness.
And the, um, the fire challenge where people poured flammable liquids on themselves and then set the liquids on fire.
Okay, you know, at some point, you gotta, you gotta, um, uh, accede to the Darwin challenge and say,
you know what, if you're gonna pour something flammable on yourself and, and light a match,
I don't think anyone else really deserves the blame for that.
And if you, if you, uh, you know, try to, uh, choke yourself until you lose consciousness, um, that's on you.
It's, it's not on whoever, uh, sold you whatever bit of equipment you used to do that.
Um, I, this is just insane.
And it's not just young people either.
I don't want to give the impression, uh, that the Chromebook challenge is taking place in school.
So that one is pretty much, I don't think you see a lot of corporate executives going around,
uh, setting their Chromebooks on fly, uh, on fire.
I don't think you see a lot of, uh, corporate executives using Chromebooks because, um, well, you know,
they're kind of useless.
Um, anyway, parents and psychiatrists have been trying to wrap their heads around how some of the more dangerous
internet trends take off, especially among kids.
Uh, a viewpoint published by a pair of university of Tennessee health science center at Memphis
psychiatrist in JAMA psychiatry.
Boy, I got lost in that sentence, uh, back in November highlighted the complexities of trying
to decipher if children who participate in such risky TikTok trends are looking to hurt themselves.
Uh, TikTok challenges are an emerging public health concern for children.
Um, you know, I would say it's probably more about getting attention, about, uh, gaining popularity,
about all those things, you know, that, um, that social media bring to us, all those, uh, unhealthy
desires.
And, uh, if it involves, uh, setting yourself on fire or, or blowing up your computer, uh, yeah,
you'll take that risk.
It's, um, you know, it's, it's really insane and crazy, but that is our society right now.
Rob?
Yeah, this is, this story was fascinating to me because I, you know, I'm about a hundred
years old now, but I remember being a kid in school and wanting to damage things or break
things or leave a mark on things.
You know, I, I doodled in textbooks and knowing the school district I went to, those textbooks
are probably still being used.
But the, uh, the fact of doing this with a Chromebook, A, it's expensive and you're obviously
going to be charged for it or your parents or guardians are, or, or whatever, and that's
no good.
Um, it's physically dangerous, uh, you know, lithium batteries are nothing to mess with.
Um, but also you're being handed a computer and yeah, it's a Chromebook, it's a piece
of garbage, but you, you can still put things into those computers that are much more subversive
and useful things like, uh, you know, open source software, things like alternative, uh,
operating systems.
Um, you know, if you want to tinker with one of these things, you know, jailbreak it, um,
do, do something else that will give you a tool that you could, uh, you know, maybe
do some more fun stuff with, put Wireshark on it.
I don't know, but, uh, you know, just, uh, breaking it to break it.
That's kind of devoid of imagination.
Yeah.
You know, graffiti was a big deal when I was going to school and, um, graffiti looks pretty
damn good right about now because, you know, you're expressing yourself.
You're, you're, you're sending a message, you're being creative, artistic, um, and here
you're just destroying, you know, it would be like, um, you get a textbook for a class
and you rip it up and now you don't have a textbook anymore and you haven't really accomplished
anything except to deprive yourself of a resource.
And, um, yeah, it, it, it might be a bit spectacular to, um, have something, uh, smoke
and go on flight, go on, you know, on, on fire for a little bit, but after the thrill
wears off and after about a million people do it, I just don't see what the appeal is.
And I, I, I honestly can't figure this out.
Uh, Alex, you have a kid.
Is he, is he doing things like this?
Can he explain it?
I can't really explain this other than the fact that I think it goes back to, you can't
explain it.
I'm asking if he can explain it.
Oh, if he can explain it.
Uh, he might be able to explain this probably.
I would imagine he can probably explain it better than I could, or at least he could
attempt to explain it better than I could.
So, you know, perhaps we can have him on, uh, maybe next week or the week thereafter or
something.
And he can talk about this type of idiocy that we're seeing.
But I think this really goes back to what I've said time and time again, now, probably
for the last decade on this show, that social media is just a scourge on this society.
That is dangerous, that it really can affect impressionable children, especially at this
young age and, and cause them to do really idiotic things.
I think it's psychologically distorts them in so many ways, gets them in trouble, uh, causes
them to do this type of idiotic activity.
But what, what's also really concerning to me here as well, Emmanuel, is that the criminal
charges that are levied against these kids in Connecticut could have really long-term
implications for them.
It could limit their education options.
It could limit their employment options.
It could prevent these children who might otherwise be really talented and smart and could
have a promising career from doing something, perhaps even with the U S government being charged
with an arson offense.
Alex, Alex, you're literally saying it's going to go on their permanent record.
How, how do you think a kid is going to react to you saying that?
Yeah.
Well, that's a big problem, right?
Cause they don't even understand the implications of what a permanent record is when they're,
they're prefrontal lobes are.
So you can tell yourself they don't understand, or you can tell yourself they don't care, you
know, either way they're, they're, they're pushing back.
And, but I think you touched upon something, uh, really important here, uh, as far as this
being, uh, indicative of social media and the stupidity of social media leads us into.
Now, this is a very blatant example, you know, literally lighting your own computer on fire.
Um, but there are so many other examples of stupid things people do based on what they're
told on social media.
And I think we just have to look around us in everyday news to see the results of that.
You know, the, the, the kids are kind of showing us the absurdity, but what we are doing every
single day as adults is far, far worse than lighting Chromebooks on fire.
And we don't seem to see that.
I mean, we see that, but as a society, I don't think that it's, it's really hit us yet that
boy, we are screwing ourselves up tremendously based on what we are being told on social media.
And I just wonder, when is that realization going to, going to, going to hit?
Because I think the kids are going to get it at some point.
They're going to realize, oh yeah, this probably isn't the best thing to do.
You know, it takes a few months maybe for that to, uh, that knowledge to set in.
But, you know, for us that are, uh, you know, tearing apart democracy and, and, and, uh, uh,
seeing everything that we, uh, we cherish and, and value fall apart, uh, based on, on lies
and falsehoods and all kinds of, of, uh, disinformation, you know, that's going to take a lot longer.
And I just wish we could, uh, speed it up.
Go ahead, Alex.
Yeah, I will tell you too, you know, Sasha, my son, um, is very skeptical of social media.
I think he approaches it with a very, very large grain of salt.
And I think he has a very mature understanding of the danger and the implications of social
media, and he really wants nothing to do with it.
And I think that's a great sign, uh, or, or really a propitious start here for this generation.
I think to, to approach social media with this sense of, of danger and trepidation, I think
it's great.
So I would, I would love to have him come back on and talk about this, but I think that
this, the, these challenges are, are really just incredibly stupid.
Right.
And it reminds me of when we were younger, um, and I was, you know, a hacker and a phone
freak.
And we used to try to cause people on the other end of phones to do stupid things, right?
We call like the encore operator and pretend that, you know, we had, we were tech support
and that their computer was overheating.
And so you would cause them to pour some kind of liquid into the back of the computer, or
you do that with McDonald's or something, you know, there were, there were all these types
of social engineering tricks or, uh, you know, phone freaks used to get people on the other
end of the phone to do really ridiculous things.
But now with social media, these challenges have enabled people to do this on mass across
countries, across borders.
It's kind of, uh, incredible when you think about it.
You know, you mentioned the encore operator or, or I, yeah, a person who answered the phone
at encore, a long distance company.
Uh, and I, there was, there was one story, uh, that someone told me at some point, I don't
think it was you, you had your own stories, but they got the encore operator to get their
computer to go all the way down to a C prompt.
And at that point, they just sort of left them.
And it's just, you know, it's, it's, it's told in, uh, in, in fables, what happened beyond
that point, but you could get people to do almost anything.
And that's, it's, you know, social engineering.
And yeah, some people consider that to be harmful or, or malicious, uh, but I don't
think it, uh, it holds a candle to what we're seeing today as far as this kind of destructiveness.
Go ahead, Gila.
It's not.
And I mean, excuse me, I think the fact that people used to have the ability to social engineer
and to do all these things, but to work it out in the privacy of their own situation and
not expect to share it with the known universe.
And I think about the, and the things that are becoming TikTok trends are also ludicrous.
And that's kind of what I don't understand.
TikTok confuses me.
I know I'm an old curmudgeon.
I do not understand, but was it last week where some kid who was doing a TikTok trend
ding dong ditch and got shot?
What the hell is ding dong ditch?
Emmanuel, this has been a thing forever.
You want to come to somebody, you ring their doorbell and you run away.
Ding dong ditch.
Are you?
That's it?
This is.
People have been doing that since before doorbells were invented.
Exactly.
But apparently it's now a TikTok trend and a young person did it and ditched the wrong
ding dong apparently.
And.
Okay.
Oh, but hold on.
Got shot in pursuit of TikTok.
The issue here is not TikTok.
The issue here is why some maniac is shooting people who ring his doorbell or her doorbell.
I think it's an interest.
I think it's both, honestly.
But the idea that you're just.
Yeah.
What happened to just making prank phone calls on random people?
Like when my dad was in high school, he managed to social engineer a traffic jam on the other
side of the city.
He called the radio station and started giving fake traffic updates and caused a rubberneck
traffic jam all by himself.
Nice.
Okay.
Um, and that's awesome.
And no one knows about it because he didn't talk about it a lot, but statute of limitations.
It's so, you know, that's also true.
Nobody really knows.
But, you know, where is the line of clout?
And when you have kids and especially kids who have been fed into the social media ecosystem
by their parents, all these family TikTok channels and family YouTube channels and family
whatevers, and they do not understand that not every single thing you do has to be for
public consumption.
And where is that space to be a kid and mess around and do dumb things and not do it for
public consumption?
You know, it's interesting that you say that, um, because, um, there is so much surveillance
now that you really can't do dumb things without immediately being, uh, a call to account.
And yet people are doing dumber things than ever on mass.
And, um, you know, I don't know, uh, which to cheer for people who are spitting in the
face of authority or, uh, you know, people who are, are, are, are stopping, uh, the lunacy
from continuing.
But, you know, you, you ask why people aren't making prank phone calls anymore.
People aren't making phone calls anymore.
That's why if we made more phone calls, I, I dare say we'd probably be making more prank
phone calls as well.
Go ahead, Rob.
Um, so I'm going to push back a little on the idea that social media is a scourge and
that all these challenges are destructive because, you know, I, as, as an adult, I get
a lot out of social media and I enjoy my current social media environment, um, in the spots
and, uh, venues where I choose to participate.
And there are challenges out there that are fun.
There are challenges out there that won't break things.
Um, one, one example, I'm actually participating in a social media challenge that lasts all month.
And it is, uh, something that was arranged by a Muppet fan site.
We all love the Muppets.
And, uh, it is just a list of art prompts.
It's a daily art challenge, you know, draw a different character or a situation from the
Muppet universe every single day.
And so a bunch of fans will throw in together on this and everyone will draw their own take
on it and post it.
And I've been having a lot of fun with that.
It's, uh, you know, helped with a little artist block that I was dealing with before that.
Gila actually turned me onto this and, um, let me know that it was happening.
And there are these fun challenges like that.
You know, you go back a generation or so now on social media and there was the ice bucket
challenge where people were dumping ice water over themselves or not, but it was to raise
money for charity.
And that was fun.
There are challenges out there and there are uses for social media that can be fun, that
can be okay.
And, uh, that, you know, if he, as, as long as we question and continuously question the
place of these things in our lives and, uh, rather than hanging too much on it and, uh,
you know, tying things to our success or failure with it, um, just using it as, as the toy that
it is and as the, uh, you know, networking tool that it is, but, uh, you know, having
a little, uh, a little, uh, awareness around what you decide to do with it.
And when you're a kid and you haven't quite, you know, gotten your grasp of, uh, consequences
and things of like, say, setting your school issue computer on fire.
I think that's when it's more dangerous.
That's when it can be a lot more destructive.
And that's when I think, um, I am constantly grateful that my, my own childhood predated
the, uh, modern social media era, because I know I would have, I would have ended up doing
really idiotic things and having them out there forever versus being able to do idiotic
things and have everyone forget about them.
Cause I was a kid at the time.
Yes, Alex.
Yeah.
I mean, who, who knew Rob T. Firefly was so wholesome.
I had, I had no idea over there, you know, drawing Muppets and all kinds of fun things.
I, I had no, no clue, Rob, but, uh, what if you followed me on social media, I guess that
that, that, that could be it.
But I mean, I, I see your point there though, but I, I think it goes back to, and I think
you really underscored the, the issue here is that, you know, while social media might
not be dangerous to a, a, a, a well-rounded adult like yourself, it certainly is dangerous
to children because they're so impressionable and they're, they're likely to do stupid things.
I mean, are we going to see the next challenge have to do with like bloodletting or something?
Are we going to wait until kids exsanguinate themselves on social media, um, you know, before
we, we put an end to this kind of thing.
I mean, I, I really think I'm not really in favor of more governmental regulation.
I think that the best defense, as I've said many, many times on the show against disinformation
and idiocy is, is the gray matter that we have in between our brains.
But, um, I do think that when that gray matter is inhibited, as it may be with children up
to a certain age, that it's just not a good idea for them to have unfettered access to
social media.
Yeah.
But, you know, you, you, you say that kids are impressionable and they are, uh, and, uh,
that's particularly dangerous because, you know, they're young and innocent, but we're
all impressionable and we're all doing stupid things.
And, um, I think we need to cast a wider net as to, you know, how we, we, um, we conduct
ourselves and what it is that we are looking for.
For instance, you know, I would advise anyone, uh, on social media, ignore the popularity,
uh, um, uh, lure that they, they throw in front of you, uh, because it shouldn't be about
that.
It shouldn't be about just getting popular.
It should be about doing something different, being yourself and not worrying so much about
whether or not you're trendy.
And the other thing I would say would be to, um, uh, never put somebody down for doing things
different or for being different, uh, or for, uh, you know, being strange or, or, or just
something that you're not familiar with.
All of those things happen constantly on social media and it's what makes it such a negative
environment when it could be a very positive environment.
Sure.
You know, when, when, when these platforms started, there was nothing but optimism for
what they could do.
And they certainly have done some good things as well, but it all gets eclipsed by the negative.
If, uh, people are hurting themselves or, uh, uh, losing all their self-confidence or just
buying into things that aren't worth anything in the long run.
Uh, that's what we have to look at.
And to say that it's, it's just kids that need to be protected.
Look, we, we need to protect ourselves.
We don't need some, some overseer to, you know, lay down the law and tell us, uh, uh, what
to do and what not to do.
None of us like that, whether it's a government or whether it's Google, nobody likes that.
Uh, but we need to have some common sense.
We need to learn.
And, you know, you learn things, you learn how to ride a bike, you learn to wear a helmet,
you know, you learn, you know, this is good.
This, if you don't do this, it's irresponsible.
And, um, Darwin takes care of the rest.
Like I said before, it's, so it's, um, it's something I think we, we, we can't let that
conversation stop because it's super important that we look out for each other.
And that goes for us as individuals, that goes for us as an entire society that goes for
the entire world.
I think there's a example here too, that, um, for all the reasons it is positive to have
these platforms, uh, they can very affordably be manipulated and leveraged in ways that are
harmful and that's something that's, uh, been around as a sentiment from the earliest roots
of this technology.
And my hope is, um, people have a little more reverence for their hardware, the stuff that's
facilitating their own learning.
And perhaps even, uh, a teacher will turn this into a curriculum on the science of short
circuiting batteries and how this, or how challenge culture can be harmful.
You know, there's a lot of lessons here, uh, to take away from these challenge and possible
challenges and possibly turn some, some good into this and have, uh, maybe students will
have a better understanding of like hazardous materials and the engineering behind some of
these devices.
Well, as far as I see, the only reason to, uh, to set your Chromebook on fire is to look
cool in the eyes of others.
And, uh, yeah, when you, when this many people are doing it, nobody's looking cool anymore.
Uh, so let's move on to something else and let's, let's move on to something else as well.
Um, you might've heard of this, uh, a charter airline called a global X.
Uh, they are an airline used for deportations by the U S government.
And, um, according to this, uh, register story, actually according to a lot of stories, um, global
crossing airlines group, uh, on May 5th, learned of unauthorized activity within its computer
networks and system supporting portions of its business applications, which the company
determined to be the result of a cybersecurity incident.
Yes.
Upon learning of this activity, the company immediately activated its incident response
protocols and third-party cybersecurity experts to assist with containment and mitigation
activities and to investigate the nature and scope of the incident and took actions to
contain and isolate the effective servers and prevent further intrusion.
Uh, the nature of the incident is not yet known, but the popular blueprint for cyber criminals
who gain access to a company is to exfiltrate data and use it as leverage to extort.
Um, so, uh, the alleged perpetrators have, uh, basically, uh, pitched the news that they
have stolen flight records and passenger manifests, including ones related to deportation flights.
They've, they've pitched that news to various news outlets.
Uh, and, um, the timing of that disclosure, it's ambiguous wording suggests there is at least
some truth to the story.
Um, global X was quickly identified as one of the main small airlines whose services were
called upon by ice within days of Trump taking office for the second time.
Uh, although the company doesn't openly advertise this, I'm kind of curious how to get the word
out.
Uh, Bloomberg reported that some of the earliest flights it was tasked with making from the
U.S. to South American countries, such as Brazil, Colombia, Guatemala, and Honduras were
mired in technical difficulties.
Uh, the airline operates a fleet of 19 Airbus planes, A320s, 321s, and 321Fs.
Uh, they reportedly tackled various issues ranging from aborted landings, broken air conditioning,
leading to deportees fainting from high temperatures to not being able to start engines for hours.
Oh yeah.
Real, real first class here.
Um, according to its investor presentation, uh, global X is the fastest growing charter airline
in America.
Uh, but up to date filing show it has yet to turn a profit since being founded in 2018.
You know, I just want to say, um, if this airline is being hacked, if any, um, airline that is,
um, um, helping with deportation is being hacked, I think that's a good thing.
And I think that's something that is a patriotic duty of people to find out just what's going
on because we're sure as hell not getting the details.
And if you have flight manifests, that is extremely valuable information because many times people
who are being sent to El Salvador or other places, uh, are not, uh, um, uh, having their
whereabouts, uh, told to their loved ones, to their friends, relatives, anyone.
And it's, it's, you know, like a, um, um, one of those situations that you hear about in
places you never think would be anywhere near where we are now, you know, third world countries,
where, where human rights abuses are, are, you know, the, the routine, uh, that is the
kind of thing that we are looking at.
So anyone who fights that anyone who is able to, um, uh, to, to, to crack the armor a little
bit and get some details out, get some information out.
That is a good thing, you know, uh, uh, ransomware.
No, not for this.
This is too important.
This is something that really needs to be shared.
And, uh, we need to find out who is being sent where.
And, um, exactly why, Alex, I don't think I entirely agree with, with that manual.
And, and here's the reason why, I mean, I can understand the, the sentiment and kind of
the sympathy here with respect to this form of civil disobedience being the way to, to
essentially throw some sand into the gears of this operation, this deportation operation
and other Trump administration has been, uh, that, that that's been ongoing for some time
now.
And as, and I think is really quite serious and quite dangerous as well, but I don't necessarily
agree with the activists here who released the information publicly because we're dealing
with people who were arguably seeking political asylum.
A lot of these people were migrants.
They might've been fleeing violence or some kind of political persecution and putting their
identities out there, letting the whole world know that they have been sent back to their
home countries from which they, they fled to the United States and have now been deported
back to where they came.
I think it's going to heighten the risk of violence, uh, retaliation.
I think if there is a breach of this sort and I, um, I'm all in favor of civil disobedience
and you know, my stance on that, um, I think, you know, civil disobedience also should be public
and have some kind of punishment associated with it as well.
I think that kind of completes the act, but I think that you have to be extraordinarily careful
about the data of these migrants and the, and the sensitivities that these people have
with respect to this deportationist could really stigmatize them for the rest of their
lives as well.
Well, um, you're assuming that, um, uh, the people being sent back to the country that
they came from, uh, and that somehow, uh, they're being sent back is not being shared
with the authorities in that particular country.
I think, I think they already know who's coming back, uh, you know, people who tried to flee
their regime.
If there's a shipment of people being sent back to them, they're going to know who those people
are.
And if they're being sent to a third country like El Salvador, uh, a country that they've
never even been to before to a maximum security prison, I'm pretty sure the people, uh, who
are being sent there would want the world to know what's happening to them because if they're
going to be in that prison and it is a prison where that advertises that nobody ever walks
out of here, nobody ever leaves unless they're in a casket, that kind of sick society that,
that they find themselves in.
And, you know, I think you're already in hell at that point and having your name, uh, um,
um, you know, basically shared with people so that people know what became of you and
where you are.
I, I, I, you know, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is a, uh, a
service to people who are looking for justice.
Well, I, I think we're both making assumptions here and maybe some of them are erroneous assumptions,
but I think in even a small, if, if even a small case of these is, if, if we're right
about even a small case of them, I think, I think it's, it's wise to really curate this
data.
But, but one thing I think you, one point I think you missed was that it's not necessarily
always the government that these people have been fleeing when they're fleeing violence or
fleeing persecution.
It's not necessarily, uh, associated with some kind of despotic regime.
It could have to deal with a cartel.
It could have to deal with some kind of private violence that is endemic wherever they live.
They could have a, you know, armed gangs, militias, these people that are, they're, they're fleeing
and, uh, and a lot of these people, especially from Central America have fled such absolutely
horrific, not only I think political violence, but, you know, this kind of personal vendettas
that have been sought after families and things, you know, gang rapes and, um, absolutely
horrific, uh, factual situations that don't necessarily involve the government.
And in fact, a lot of these cartels and, and, and these kind of organized criminal enterprises
are, uh, you know, at loggerheads with the government.
So they're not necessarily going to be sharing that information as well.
So I, I think we have to, to not just think of it in the sense of, well, a government's already
going to know, um, the fact that these people are coming back on a, on a plane and where they're
going to be, uh, located or, or if they are going into some kind of facility like a prison,
I think that puts them at really, really great risk.
Yeah.
But people are going to find out they're there.
If they're in a prison, their name is going to, is going to be spread around the whole
prison.
So, you know, you're not going to be able to stay anonymous in that situation very long.
Uh, and, uh, if, if, if you're going back to another country where the cartel, um, uh,
you know, rules the streets, I'm not sure how you're going to hide from them when you
were trying to flee from them in the first place.
I, it just seems, you know, like, um, uh, this is a way to not get something done, to
not get word out, to not gum up the works a bit.
And I think at this point where so many people are being victimized by this, uh, there has
to be some kind of an action where, where people, um, uh, do something to fight back because
right now it's, um, that there's really nothing.
There's so little.
So something like this, and you call it civil disobedience.
I, you know, I think we've done enough civil disobedience.
I think it's just time for regular disobedience at this point.
Uh, basically just getting out there and, and, and letting them know that this will not
stand.
I think that's the message that needs to be sent.
And will it be perfect?
No, of course not.
There'll be, you know, rough edges, but just sitting back and letting it happen and filing
appeals and writing nasty letters, it's not enough, Rob.
One, one, uh, angle about this story that, uh, is making me think a lot is the idea that,
uh, Global X, a private company, um, is, uh, you know, I generally don't approve.
In fact, I always don't approve of fascism.
I don't approve of private enterprise that aids fascism.
And the idea that a company that is participating in this, that, uh, you know, bid for the job and
got it and is enthusiastically doing it, um, having to be afraid of people finding out that
they're doing it, having to be afraid that they're going to be held accountable in the
public sphere, um, having to be afraid that the name Global X is, um, you know, going to
become synonymous with, uh, you know, papers, please, uh, brown shirts in, you know, the,
in, in just the, the whole sphere of all that's going on.
Um, the idea of them having to fear that sort of thing and that sort of thing happening to
them kind of makes me very happy.
I am not going to sit here and tell anyone to do anything that's against the law because
that would be wrong.
But the fact of things like this happening, I, I gotta say, it gives me a bit of a warm
feeling.
Yes, Alex.
You know, I'm, I'm curious about what the implications are going to be with respect to,
to Global X here, because in any other situation, uh, an airline would face some kind of
regulatory scrutiny.
There'd be some calls in Congress to hail their executives before some kind of committee
and have them testify about their cybersecurity posture and why it was so lax.
But what's really kind of fascinating to me here too, is that the aggrieved individuals
are people who have been deported here.
So what are the data breach notification obligations with respect to those individuals, right?
They, they're not necessarily within the United States anymore.
They weren't within the United States.
They might've been en route outside of it at that particular time, but they certainly
have a great nexus to the United States because it's the country from which they were deported.
Alex, can we just, can I just stop you right there?
Our country is thinking of suspending habeas corpus for these people.
Do you think they're going to notify them if their private data was breached?
Well, here's my thought on this too.
They, their rights were compromised in some way, infringed upon by Global X, right?
That allowed this incident to occur and that resulted in the release of their personally
identifiable information, the flight manifest, et cetera, that could, for all the reasons that
I detailed before, subject them to political persecution, violence, et cetera.
So wouldn't it be interesting if those people banded together and filed their own class action
lawsuit?
And I think that they would have the right to do so, but if they could, could file their
own class action suit, likely in California, uh, against Global X for this particular data
breach, I think that would be really interesting.
And I'd love to see what would shake out in the discovery portion of that side of that.
Which people are you referring to?
The people that were deported, the people whose data was released by the hacktivists.
How are they going to do this in a, in a, in a prison in El Salvador?
Well, it's, they wouldn't have to do this.
They would have to find counsel, obviously, to file a lawsuit on their behalf.
And I'd be surprised if there wasn't some enterprising plaintiff's lawyer somewhere who's
already scheming up a class action on the basis of this breach.
Yeah, but hopefully they're, they're, they're, uh, cooking up something, uh, a class action
on, on behalf of them being, um, um, seized and, and, and thrown out of the country and
put into a horrible subhuman, uh, uh, prison that they have no hope of escaping from.
You know, I think that's, that's priority.
I'm sorry.
Well, no doubt, no doubt.
But yeah, look, we've, we've seen what our government in this particular administration
has, has done in terms of lifting fingers to help people who were wrongly deported.
So, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't hold their breath.
Well, no, you're not going to depend on the government to do anything.
You have to fight them and do it yourself.
And that's where we should be, uh, focusing our attention.
Anyway, we have to move on.
Um, we have some, some listener mail.
Actually, this comes from an old friend of ours.
Uh, you guys remember the name David Dolphin, who was on the show, uh, way back, back in the,
before 2010, I think, um, hello friends.
It has been 5,971 days since actually this came in a week ago.
So hang on.
Uh, it's been 5,978 days since I was last on the show.
And, uh, I'm not going to check his math, but wow.
I must first apologize for having startled the manual on that Berlin rooftop, causing him to
drop his phone, which disconnected the call.
Uh, you can hear the shenanigans in the archive, uh, December 31st, 2008.
Okay.
I'll take your word for that too.
I love listening to off the hook, but I had to write concerning your March 19th discussion
regarding self-driving cars.
See, everyone's listening.
People listen out there.
Might not be on the radio anymore, but they, they still listen to the show.
Wow.
5,978 days.
Uh, you're absolutely right to be skeptical of Tesla's self-driving system.
Um, studies show that, uh, even.
When Teslas are updated to the latest software version, the system will disengage, requiring
the driver to take over control every 230 miles on average.
This is better than the 110 miles per disengagement last year, but still shockingly bad.
Uh, a lack of a LIDAR and radar sensors for cost reasons, uh, is limiting the Tesla autonomous
system leading to fatal crashes every few months.
However, just because Tesla FSD is a deficient system unfit for our public roads does not
mean all self-driving systems are as bad.
Waymo has been shown to disengage once per 10,000 miles.
And, uh, Zoox's, I've never said that word before.
Z-O-X.
Zoox.
Zoox's disengagement rate is once per 28,000 miles, more than 120 times better than Tesla.
As a parent and cyclist in San Francisco, congratulations, I, uh, find that Waymo's are some of the safest
drivers on the road.
They always drive at or below the speed limit.
They give me space in the bike lane.
They come to a complete stop at intersections.
They pull over for emergency vehicles and have far better reaction speeds than a typical
driver.
Uh, you can, uh, look at videos of, uh, Waymo, uh, avoid, avoiding running over a motorcyclist
who crashed in front of the car or a Waymo breaking to avoid being hit by a red light
runner.
Um, and both of these situations and many others, human drivers would have fared worse resulting
in injuries or death.
And it's right to question new technology, especially in, in safety critical situations
like driving.
Uh, but Waymo's have now traveled tens of millions of miles and the data is showing that
they are 85 to 90% safer than human drivers.
Traffic collisions are the leading cause of death for children in the USA, surpassing gun
deaths.
Moving toward competent self-driving systems will save countless lives inside and outside
the car.
Waymo's announcement last week that they are partnering with Toyota, uh, to bring their
autonomous driving software to cars you can own is a wonderful step in this direction.
I hope Waymo's come to New York city soon.
So you can all experience how their system works, but please avoid Tesla self-driving
at all costs.
Your life may depend on it.
All the best, David Dolphin.
David, great to hear from you and good points.
Uh, you know, I, I will never argue that, um, um, autonomous cars are, are generally safer
drivers than, than the average person because boy, we have some terrible drivers.
We, we really do.
Um, but when something, um, uh, goes, goes wrong with autonomous cars.
It can really go wrong.
And, and, uh, I, you know, there may not be examples involving Waymo's, but we've certainly
have heard of things with, uh, with, with others.
Uh, and also, I guess our imagination kind of, um, um, carries us away as, as, as well.
Um, if there is an accident involving autonomous cars, um, it may be one accident.
And if a human was driving, uh, there could have been 50 accidents for that one, but we
hear about the one because it's autonomous.
I still, you know, driving is something that I, I, you know, think is a human thing, but
I get that a lot of people probably shouldn't be driving.
I hope that we reach some kind of parity where, you know, there's, there's, um, a number of
people who are, are equipped to drive, who are safe drivers, but also autonomous drivers
who are also safe.
You know, if we get the unsafe autonomous, uh, vehicles off the road and the unsafe human
drivers off the road, then I think everyone gets what they want.
Thoughts?
I'm glad that these points were raised to just distinguish that not all of these systems
are the same, that it is a marketplace and different things are out there and evolving
and improving, which is, as you said, the goal, that's the public good of this technology
that, um, that altogether we have a lot more dry, uh, capable vehicles and, uh, systems
augmenting drivers of vehicles.
So there's, um, tools if you're driving, uh, yourself that, that enhance your senses as
a driver and your reaction times and, and, uh, acumen behind the wheel, but also improving
and ever better systems that themselves use the same caution in automated ways.
Those, that would be the hope is that, um, big machines on the roadways are as safe as
they could possibly be.
So, yeah, that's, it's not all doom, I guess.
And we, we should be hopeful for those things.
It's just, you know, we've seen, we've seen technology screw up so many times.
And when you think, you know, an 18 wheeler is barreling down the highway and it's a computer
and no human, uh, you, you, you kind of get terrified as to what could happen.
Uh, and I think that's, that kind of defines who we are, people who are terrified about what
could happen.
Uh, so, you know, it, it, it, it probably will be an improvement, uh, in, uh, the, um,
the human drivers who are out there, uh, truck drivers excluded though, because they always
are, in my experience, fairly safe on the, on the interstates at least.
Uh, but I could see some things going horribly wrong and I just worry about, um, what we have
to, uh, sacrifice in order to, to learn.
Uh, but again, what we have right now is certainly nothing to write home about.
We have so many bad drivers on the road and, and, and so much carnage on the highways.
So anything that improves that, it's a good thing.
Any thoughts?
Alex?
Yeah, I am.
I don't know.
I think I'm more aligned with you on this one.
Emmanuel, you know, as somebody who, uh, who's coded quite a bit in his life.
I just think there are so many goddamn variables that exist when you're driving a car that would
be so difficult to account for in any way with some kind of, you know, universal program,
some kind of self-driving program.
I just, I just don't trust it.
I don't trust the people who have coded these systems.
I know they're tested and tested and tried and, and lots of ways, but, you know, I don't
necessarily think that a lot of this code is out there for public scrutiny or is open
source.
And if it was, I would feel a little bit more comfortable perhaps getting behind the wheel,
so to speak of a self-driving car.
But until then, I think, you know, there's a reason why I don't have, you know, electronic
locks and things on my house.
You know, I, I, I like to turn a key.
I like to shift a gear.
I like to be behind the wheel and, and be in control.
And I just don't think that society is ready just yet to hand it all over to machines,
whether we're talking about artificial intelligence or some kind of self-driving car.
I think there is merit to having the so-called humans in the loop here.
You know, I don't, I don't even trust cruise control.
I stay away, I stay away from that.
I want to be in control even at that's on the long, lonely stretches on the highway.
You know, I want to be able to determine, and it's stupid too, because, you know, I'd
never get a speeding ticket if I just kept it at a certain speed and it was, it was,
it was constant, but I don't know.
I just, I want to be engaged, you know, I think that's something that people who drive
and are passionate about it can understand.
Kyle, I know you're one of those people.
Oh yeah, I like to drive a lot, but, um, there are limitations and you have to practice it
and you're always, every time you get behind the wheel, you're always older than you were
the last time you were behind the wheel.
And you have to kind of remember, um, to give yourself time and give yourself, and, uh,
patience and, um, I don't know, the, all the opportunities to have a safe driving experience,
but it, I'm, I am interested in a lot of the things that we're able to do with technology
in those environments in ways that aren't distracting.
So yeah, I, I like, um, and I'm not necessarily in vehicles that have all of those things.
Sometimes I'm in vehicles that are very minimal.
So, um, I bring that sense to it and take that drive maybe a little bit more seriously
because you're in a vehicle that can't withstand the kind of driving you would get away with,
with, with something chock full of it.
You know, the simple vehicles I think are the best.
I was in a rental car the other day and I was just trying to tune the radio while I was driving.
Do you know what's impossible?
Because you can't just reach over and tune it.
You have to look at it.
You have to read it.
You have to enter numbers.
It's insane.
Whoever designs these things is, is, is out to kill us because it makes no sense whatsoever.
You just want to be able to tune from one frequency to the next, you know, a simple,
and you can't even do that because if there isn't a strong enough signal, it'll skip right over.
All right.
So you have to enter it by hand, but that means you can't be looking at the road and you just
wind up not listening to the radio and the whole thing is so incredibly stupid.
And, uh, old, old analog radios really are, uh, are, are the best thing to have in that kind
of a situation.
Hey, we're out of time that went fast, uh, but we're going to continue the conversation and take
phone calls on YouTube at eight o'clock, go to channel 2600 on YouTube or the, um, uh, the link
on the front page at 2600.com.
Uh, a reminder next week from seven to eight, we will be taking phone calls for the WBAI
audience and, uh, we hope you can join us then as well.
Uh, in the meantime, please support WBAI because, uh, this station is what makes it all possible
and, uh, yeah, people are calling already.
Uh, it's, um, it's, it's an amazing place where so many different voices can be heard
and, um, and, and so much free speech is, uh, is shared over 99.5 FM.
Go to, um, um, uh, buddy.wbai.org.
Do I have that right, Gila?
Okay.
That's correct.
And, um, uh, pledge whatever you can afford to keep WBAI on the air for another 65 years.
That would be, that would be great.
All right.
Write to us.
OTH at 2600.com.
We'll see you next week.
Good night.


And welcome everybody to Overtime here on YouTube. I am in YouTube land, I hope. Kyle, I think you made it as well.
Yeah, I'm over here.
And Rob, are we actually on YouTube? And did you and Gila make it okay?
We are indeed on YouTube and sounding good. And Gila and I are here.
We are here, yes.
And Alex, where the hell is Alex? Alex?
Alex, I can see Alex's chair, but there's no Alex in it.
Well, that's not enough. We need what sits in Alex's chair as well.
Well, if anyone wants to say anything about Alex that we don't want him to hear, now's the time.
There he is. Okay. Glad you could join us, Alex.
I heard that, Rob.
I think he went out to the lobby for some reason.
You have a refreshment in your hands.
I do. I do. I've got a beer in my hand. You've got to get yourself set up for overtime.
Well, unfortunately, it's not legal to drink on YouTube if you're running the YouTube channel.
I have all those impressionable minds on social media.
At least open the can in front of the microphone.
You want me to do that?
That would be refreshing.
Oh, yeah.
Look at that.
There's no better sound than the... What am I talking about? There's so many better sounds, but it's good.
It's good.
That's true. I agree.
Yeah.
Well, good to be here.
Drinking beer out of a can.
Okay. Yeah, we are here, and I want you to hear this.
Drinking beer out of a can.
Didn't hear any um.
That's an A, right? Is a dial tone an A?
I don't know about that.
Who has their microphone up or their speaker?
Alex, you again. You're not wearing headphones.
You have to wear headphones.
Is this...
What do you mean? You're hearing an echo?
Yes.
You didn't hear an echo before.
Really?
I'm hearing an echo. Did you hear an echo, Kyle?
Well, I don't know. We were doing a couple things. The phone may have our audio going back.
No, no. I had it down.
Oh, okay. It's not related.
You're missing the point. Alex does not have headphones on. Whenever he doesn't have headphones on, we get echo. So I tie the two together.
Well, I wouldn't say it's echo. I definitely heard us looping back.
Okay, looping back. Fine. I hear my voice two seconds later. So it's frustrating as hell.
Well, he'll be quick on the draw.
I didn't have headphones on for the entire show. The live radio show.
Well, you did something different. You're doing something. I don't understand it. It's not my head.
He's bargaining.
Is it still...
It's not doing it now. Are you still hearing that?
It's not doing... Do you want me to just say when it happens next time?
Yeah, well, I think it had something to do with the dial tone.
You think so? Okay.
That's why I was suggesting we are going to send it.
Bring the dial tone back.
It's for the caller's benefit.
Bring the dial tone back.
Okay, but talk over it and hear.
I want to hear. Yeah, I'm talking now. I don't hear anything.
I'm turning it down and I'm talking.
Do you hear anything?
How about Alex?
Because that's a separate channel.
Yeah.
The different channel.
I'm going to just keep talking.
Turn it up and have Alex on.
You know what?
This is ridiculous.
Yeah, let's wait until we're actually trying to talk to someone.
I can't swear that people outside of me are hearing the feedback or whatever, but I'm hearing it.
I thought I heard something momentarily, but I hung up at the same time as you were talking.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, maybe we can be of assistance because we heard the echo, I think, early on when you noticed it.
But it was your voice echoing back through Alex's connection because signal puts a little border on and lights up whichever person it's getting sound from.
Oh.
So, yeah, I think the reason it happens sometimes and not others is just because whatever echo cancellation thing is going on on all of our individual computers, the algorithms are kind of unpredictable and random and sometimes they drop out or, you know, work less good for a moment.
And so, wearing headphones, we're not subjected to that because the sound from you guys is not ambient in our room here.
I do apologize because after the dial tone started, I did get distracted.
So, I was not paying attention to the echo because I was singing inside my head.
Ah, I need to do that.
So, I was singing Never There by Cake, which, as we all know, begins with a dial tone.
Well, I'm glad everyone is beside themselves that the dial tone is back in a temporary fashion.
This isn't permanent and I can't promise it'll work.
But what will work is 802-321-4225.
Yes.
You could also use, avail yourself of the toll-free number.
It's 833-755-2600.
And, as we have been mentioning, Kyle has been hard at work fixing the hum that has plagued us for the past two weeks.
Don't build up their expectations.
It's gone, Kyle.
You're too generous.
We just proved it's not there anymore.
I know.
I mean, you know, I could bring it up.
It's better.
You know, doing this last week, last two weeks, you'd hear a hum.
The benefit of this configuration is I can slam the phone down.
We have a new phone, too.
Yeah, you want to...
Well, we can tell people.
It's not a security violation to tell people what caused the problem.
Oh, I don't know.
You can also pick up the phone, can't you?
Yeah, one of the hybrids broke.
I'll finish the story later.
Yeah, the hybrid broke.
Okay.
Wow, you have to physically pick up the receiver.
Okay.
But it's not connected.
You have a receiver with no wire.
That's kind of cool.
Well, the headset wire is part of the other hybrid.
Anyway, caller, hi.
Yes, good evening.
You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
Go ahead.
How's your night?
Yes, hi.
I have a two-part question.
Will there be any talks at the HOPE Conference about the Omnicard?
And the second question is, have any of you guys used the Omnicard?
And do you have any either horror stories or good stories about it?
Well, we have used the Omnicard.
Kyle and I have used the Omnicard many times, our own Omnicards.
I imagine everybody here who's a New Yorker has also used it.
I'm very impressed with it, to be honest.
The one thing I don't like about the Omnicard, and I like just about everything about it,
including the fact that you can't go, what is it, more than 12 or 13 rides in a week before
it's all free because there's a maximum amount you can pay.
But what I don't like is not knowing if you got a free transfer or not.
It just says go on a bus or go on a train after you've already ridden on something else,
so you're not entirely sure if you're getting credit for, you know, if it's a transfer or if it's a new fare.
That is my only note.
Okay.
I know many years ago there was a talk at the HOPE conference called Hacking the MetroCard,
and I'm wondering if anybody's going to do something called Hacking the Omnicard.
Yeah, you know, I don't know if we've gotten a talk for that yet.
I'm not up on all of them, but it's definitely one we would welcome.
Let's put it that way.
And on the subject of talks, we are still, it's still open.
You can still submit your talk and panel ideas for the HOPE conference,
which is August 15th through 17th at St. John's.
And just go to HOPE.net and go to the talk section,
and you'll be able to see what it takes, how to put together a proposal and send it on in.
Because we've gotten a huge amount of people interested in giving talks.
We're further along than we've ever been in that department.
Again, you know, I've said this the last couple of weeks,
we do need more people to buy tickets because this whole thing doesn't work if not enough people buy tickets.
So the enthusiasm is out there.
A lot of people want to come.
A lot of people want to speak.
A lot of people are presenting workshops and are representing their villages and all kinds of things like that.
It's going to be a whole lot of fun.
But for it to be as good as it can be, we need ticket buying public to show up.
And I know, you know, travel is a hassle.
I know coming from overseas is almost impossible.
And for people who want to support the conference, that's why we have the virtual ticket,
so that you can be a part of the conference and not have to worry about going through customs and border patrol and all that,
if that is an issue for you.
And you can also be a part of the talks and talk to other attendees and things like that.
But super important because we want to be able to do this every year now.
And this is the test.
If we're able to succeed this year, then it's pretty much a given that it will happen every year.
But it has to succeed this year.
And right now, kind of iffy as to whether that's going to happen.
One last thing about the Omnicord.
Do you guys have it linked to the smartphone or do you just use it independent of the smartphone?
I actually really enjoy the physical cards.
And we went during the early introduction of them.
And there were specific vending machines that had them at a discount.
So I also have one for other cities with accounts and stuff like that.
And sometimes it gets a little weird about a recurring payment card.
That's one of my only critiques.
But I do like some of the features.
Like I can double tap if I have a guest with me very easily.
Like I don't have to think about that as much.
But it really, it's up to your personal preference.
I don't want to have to always have my phone out.
And I also like being able to put it inside different pockets.
So you can just swipe your pocket onto the reader when you're going.
You don't even have to take it out of your pocket.
You have to be careful because every credit card could also do the same thing.
You're not bashing your phone against the thing.
Right.
But it can read off your phone.
It can read off credit cards and things like that.
I don't recommend anybody use their credit card directly unless it's an emergency or their phone.
If you value your privacy because that is tied directly to who you are.
Whereas you can buy an Omni card and you don't even have to use.
You can buy it with cash if you want to.
And then it's not tied to who you are.
And you just have that standalone card that you use every time you get on a bus or train.
I just want to add, this also allows you to selectively block it.
I think you were kind of implying that if you are putting your phone in some kind of Faraday container or a selection of your cards,
whatever is radio activated, you can mix and match how you want to have those exposed or not with greater ease, I think.
Have you heard any announcement from the MTA as to when they're going to eliminate the MetroCard entirely?
Because I'm still using the MetroCard.
Yeah, they were supposed to do it by now.
I think towards the end of the year, I think, is what they're shooting for now.
If not, then around that period at some point.
Gila, go ahead.
Okay.
Gila, you're muted.
I'm sorry.
I muted you.
Sorry about that.
Go ahead.
Oh, that's what I was going to say.
I've actually stopped using my OmniCard.
There are not enough pieces that are giving me the information that I need, so I stopped using it and transitioned to using the prepaid benefits transit card that I get when I get paid on my phone.
Because I'm not taking full credit for this, but I will say that after we pointed out some of the security and safety flaws inherent in the Omni system, right, you could look up all the trips somebody had taken if you had their OmniCard number.
Not anymore.
Nobody can do it.
Not anymore.
Yeah, I can't look up my own trips.
Right.
I find that incredibly frustrating.
I can't tell how close I am to the fair cap.
And because the Omni, when you tap it, does not give you the balance, which I think is one disadvantage of the Omni versus the MetroCard.
So, I quit.
And I just put the prepaid benefits card on my phone, and that's what I use to tap.
Well, it's good you have options.
You can do that.
You can go from one system to another.
It's pretty versatile that way.
Go ahead, Rob.
Yeah.
The caller mentioned the MetroCard talks at Hope, and I did just want to give a shout out to the two MetroCard talks that were done at early Hope conferences.
We're, of course, done by our good friend Jim, who is sadly no longer with us, but, you know, he was working as Red Balaclava at the time.
He was a part of this program for many, many years, and we all miss him a lot, but his talks are still up on YouTube on Channel 2600 in our catalog of past Hope talks, and they're still worth checking out.
I think there's probably stuff in there that you could translate to the OmniCard ecosystem, just because the MTA has not changed certain things, I think, too much.
Any other questions, caller?
No, you covered it.
I look forward to seeing a talk about it at some point, and I guess I've got to get myself an OmniCard one of these days.
You'll be assimilated into the Omni system, yes.
All right.
Thank you.
Have a great night.
Thanks.
Take care.
And, again, more info on Hope.
Hope.net is the website, and you should be able to find everything you need to know.
Gila.
A quick greetings to the 46 or 47 people who are hanging live with us right now in the chat.
And, Emmanuel, I have a question for you from its chat relay.
Any update on the 2600 Voice BBS project?
Oh, Lord.
Well, here's the thing.
There are so many projects.
So many projects.
Why are you pointing and laughing, Kyle?
I'm pointing and laughing because you're behind on that.
I'm behind on everything.
And you've been talking about it.
You've reminded yourself, like, several times recently.
Like, we've got to get that up.
We've got to do that.
You know, if I didn't have to worry about this conference so much and didn't have to also juggle a magazine and radio and all the other things, then I could do this.
And I like doing things like that.
I really do.
It's a joy to organize all these voices from the past and memories and things like that.
Your concern is to do it the right way.
I want to do it the right way.
Yeah.
We want to be curated.
We want to respect the innocent.
Oh, there's no innocent.
Don't fool yourself.
Nobody was innocent.
Yeah.
All that.
It was the 1990.
It was a rough time.
But, you know, we have it all.
And we just have to organize it.
As you can see from our site, we're not big on design, but we are big on archiving and organization and just capturing everything.
So you can be assured when we are given a spare moment where we can do things, we will certainly have that done and haven't forgotten about it.
Just add it to the list.
Any other questions?
Any other concerns?
No?
Okay.
Go ahead.
That's all we got for now.
All right.
We have a phone call?
Yes.
All right.
Here is our phone call.
Yes.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Govertime.
Go ahead.
Yes, Emmanuel.
Rebel, you're coming through loud and clear.
Kyle, what did you do wrong?
You fixed the hum.
It's gone.
And I hear Rebel.
And I hear nothing else.
Oh, I didn't see that.
Yeah.
You know what?
The thing I used to identify, it's in a different spot.
Uh-huh.
Rebel, how are you?
Oh, look, it is him.
What's on your mind?
Okay.
I just like to have some phone things.
Well, that's a twist.
Okay.
In the old days, and maybe even today, if you'll call forwarding, and you, well, I guess this
would be a question for the small times of electronic and digital footage, if you have call forwarding, you forward your calls to another number, like you forward this number, you know, 802-321-HACK or whatever, to the 2600 or the radio station, whatever.
Can you still make outgoing phone calls?
It depends on how you have it set up.
You know, if you have access to that actual line, or if it forwards to a different line, then you can make phone calls either on the line that matches that number or on whatever line it forwards to.
It's different for every setup.
Yeah, but I was thinking, like, if you have a home phone, and your number was 751-2600, add your home phone, regular home phone, and you have call forwarding, you forward your number to whatever, the radio station, whatever.
And if I called your 751-2600, it would go to the radio station.
But can you still be at your home and make phone calls?
Yes, the phone line will still work, even if it's forwarding.
In fact, it'll continue to forward while you're on the phone.
That's how call forwarding works.
Oh, so you'll be able to make phone calls while you're forwarding.
Yeah, the forwarding will work.
The forwarding is done inside the central office.
You program it from your instrument, from your phone, but you can use it, you can use your phone, and the call forwarding will continue to work.
And people will call you, and then it'll be forwarded to wherever you sent it.
Exactly.
Okay.
Now, when I was at, you know, some residential, you know, I was visiting some family members, and they have, you know, Verizon local phone companies, you know, they have a regular wired line phone, and I was testing some things out.
I dialed zero and got a Verizon operator and dialed, you know, 411 and got information from Verizon.
But then I dialed one of, I dialed zero and got a recording saying your call cannot be completed.
Then I figured I'd dial 10288 or 101-0288, and still, the call cannot be completed.
Why is that?
I mean, I thought you were able to, you know, select a long-distance company.
Well, it depends how the long-distance company has decided to deal with carrier access codes, if they still support that.
So, you're dialing, did you dial 1010-0288, which is AT&T?
Yeah, for AT&T.
Okay.
Did you try other carrier access codes, like 1010-333, perhaps?
No, I did not try that, nor did I try maybe 611 to see if that goes through.
I mean, I honestly don't know anybody who uses carrier access codes to make long-distance calls.
So, it's possible that very few people make use of this service, and I would bet that very few long-distance companies actually are using that anymore as well.
But you can certainly scan around and see, you know, the dialing sequence still will work.
And you can also dial, which I forgot to do, 800, was it 700-555-4141, 1-700?
0-700-555-4141, I believe, would tell you your long-distance company, if I remember correctly.
Now, I called AT&T and said that, let's say I wanted a private business and I wanted a toll-free number.
You have to pay for a toll-free number, like if you have a toll-free number, the person has to pay a monthly fee plus, like, 5 cents or 10 cents per minute when somebody calls their 800 number.
Yeah, and more if they call from a pay phone, if they can find one.
Right.
And so, this 800 number, the toll-free number that you have for this radio, this...
Well, that we have no connection with.
That's a listener donation.
Oh, so they're paying for it just for them.
It depends what kind of service they have, you know?
Maybe they run a phone company, or maybe they have a good deal where they get a certain number of minutes, or maybe it's completely unlimited, or who knows?
Could be their kid's paper route.
Yeah, you don't know.
Hmm.
We should have a fundraiser for this radio for our phone, like, over time.
You know, like, we need money and...
We don't need money for over time.
What do we need money for?
Over time is the one thing that basically sustains itself, because there's no real expense.
We'll definitely ask, though, when we come down to that part of the barrel.
But, as we said last week, we don't really want to conform to those conventions, have ads interrupting things, and have you do challenges for us.
It's not part of the ambiance.
But definitely talking about phone systems, and you ask great questions on these types of issues that I think a lot of people can identify with when they're staring the telephone man or woman in the face, looking into their eyes.
In God's name, what are you going on about?
The telephone man or woman in the face?
Yeah.
Wow.
I'm not just picturing.
And they're knocking at your door when you're trying to solve a problem.
Any other questions, Rebel?
Let's see.
So, I guess that's...
I think Gila has a question for you.
Go ahead.
I do.
So, Rebel, I hear I'm at a graduation and I'm not here tonight.
What the fuck?
Wait, what?
Rebel hopped in the chat and said, Gila has gone to a graduation and she will not be with us this evening.
Wait, but then who are you?
Yeah, who are you?
Crazily enough, I'm not 100% sure now.
Wow, Rebel, what do you know about this?
Wait, I couldn't hear Gila.
Why not?
Because I'm not here.
Oh, okay.
Now that makes sense.
Oh, you're supposed to be at some graduation.
Right.
What are you...
Why aren't you at the graduation, Gila?
You're letting people down.
I know.
It's terrible.
I do wonder who's graduation.
By the way.
Poor little Brittany is waiting for you.
Not attending right now.
Rebel, what do you know that I don't?
Yeah, where do you get your information, Rebel?
Online.
Oh.
That should answer everybody's question.
Online.
Speaking of online, I was listening to some like, you know...
You know, Rebel, if that's an attempt to change the topic, it's a very poor one because
we still want to know why you're spreading misinformation, possibly disinformation about Gila.
I am curious.
Because I thought she was going to a graduation.
And where did you hear this?
I don't know.
I thought I heard it in the chat.
Can we pull the chat, please?
Yeah.
Okay.
So I opened the chat by saying, good evening to one and all.
That was the first thing in the chat this evening.
I said, good evening to one and all.
Which apparently meant I'm not actually here.
I went to a graduation.
Well, that's what somebody giving a graduation speech would start with.
So maybe that's what confused him.
I can see that as an explanation.
Good evening.
Yeah, totally.
That's a good opening.
Rebel, we tire of this.
One more question, then we have to move on.
Okay.
When you take pictures at private places at your home or office or work or something,
do not use the location feature on your phone.
Because I hear that, you know, if you post it online to Facebook or some other platforms,
some people who may be able to know what they're doing can get the metadata from the picture.
In other words, they can not only get the picture of, you know, like when it was taken,
but maybe like the location, what kind of camera would use, what kind of phone would use.
Well, okay.
This is good reporting there, Rebel.
Can you tell us how to turn that off?
I don't know how, but I...
Ah, okay.
Then sit back and listen and we'll tell you how.
And did you want to say it, Kyle, or do you want someone else to?
Well, I know there's a couple different things here that I think are worth talking about.
Specifically, that is true.
Turning location off on your device is one step, one layer of protecting where a photo might be
coming from as far as what can be taken from the file itself.
Some of the platforms also obscure this.
And, um, they do that as a courtesy, but I would check, I would run a test with yourself somehow,
uh, take a picture of something blank and try to upload it, but don't make it a public post
and then download it.
Maybe things like that.
Try to run a test of some kind to be sure, uh, that it is working or otherwise verify that
that is actually something one or the other platforms are doing.
And when it comes to AI, I think what, uh, I was talking about this and I was thinking
about this in general, um, the content of, of a file, even if that was stripped, there
are other programs you can use to remove the metadata, uh, in a, in a general computing
environment, like on a regular computer.
Once you have the, just an image, um, that say was originally never, um, encoded with a
location because you turned your location off and, and, and so forth did everything you
could, uh, it could look at the environment and there's ever better, uh, uh, tools to use
to figure out where and at what time a picture was taken.
And, and in, in either case, visually, if it was taken in a, in a distinct location, or
if there is, um, information encoded in the file itself, when you're putting it into the
type of tool, like, um, uh, an AI chatbot, uh, some kind of large language model that machine
learning could, um, repurpose that or use it or otherwise make it available to others
that use it or even yourself, if it's, uh, personalized for you, you have to know and
be aware of how that model might take that information into consideration for you and
others and, or the, uh, the people behind it.
And I think that warning was very clear when a lot of, when a lot of these services were
starting, but they don't pop up regularly to remind you of that.
So, um, are you saying that even if you turn this off on your, on your phone, on your camera,
uh, there are, um, uh, services now or, or, uh, skills that are being developed that can identify
just based on how a picture looks, where it was taken, maybe even when it was taken and
that soon it might not even be up to us anymore.
Yeah.
I'm saying both, uh, machine tools that are automated and also just people that are curious
or do this for fun, which it is a thing.
Um, they can use some of, uh, their own tools, their own favorite thing to do to try to, uh,
put a, put it together as, as a challenge or a puzzle.
So those, those are all factors in the types of imagery that you're sharing publicly.
There was a website.
I played with this once where, uh, it would just show you a random image and you had to
try and figure out where that was just based on the picture.
I was kind of good at it.
I would usually get the right continent, but it is a challenge.
And there are little subtle clues, like the kind of, the kind of earth, the kind of trees,
the kind of road markings, things like that.
Uh, so it's, it's, it's definitely a skill, but apparently, uh, uh, with large language
models, uh, it'll be able to be done in a fraction of a second and take all the fun
out of it.
Well, absolutely.
And there are just be very, um, deliberate about your understanding of where and how you're
sharing information and with what and how it might not be up to you anymore though.
It is very, I mean, these warnings are becoming harder and harder to be the sort of, um, front
lines or the, the last bulwark or whatever you, however you want to describe it there.
It is getting harder and harder because there's so much ability out there.
Go ahead, Alex.
Well, you know, much like I was during the radio show, I I'm first and foremost here.
I'm just delighted to learn about some of your wholesome online activities manual as
well.
Sounds like, um, you're really enjoying yourself there with these online games and
things.
And so, you know, very, very, very glad you're hardly a game.
It's a picture.
And do you know where this is?
Guess.
Yes or no.
That's not much of a game.
But to go back to the, the issue at hand, just want to, one minor correction as to, to
what Rebel had said here, what, what he's really talking about this, this data that's
associated with where you took a photo and the type of camera you're using, the latitude
and longitude, that type of thing is called EXIF data or exchangeable image file format
data.
That is information about how a picture is taken and where a picture is taken that's
stored with the picture itself.
So it's stored with a JPEG or a GIF or GIF, I guess, you know, something like that.
But if let's say Rebel posted a picture of himself somewhere with all of this EXIF data
and he, he uploaded it to Facebook, Facebook then processes that image and displays it to
me.
I'm not going to be able to download that, that image and extract the EXIF data and extract
that information because that information is stored within the original file itself, not
the file that social media is then going to display to the rest of the world.
So you'd be sharing that information with the social media platform and whoever has the
original of that particular file.
But as Kyle said, there would be other, you know, other ways to figure out where you were
even if you had this turned off, but it is kind of fun to play around with the extraction
of EXIF data from any type of file as well, whether it's a PDF or some kind of image file.
And a really great tool to do that from the command line is something called EXIF tool.
And it's just a binary that you can download and very, very easily extract metadata from
basically almost any file.
It's really kind of interesting to see what is stored along with Word files as opposed
to PDFs.
And it's kind of neat.
I hope that answers your question, Rebel, because it's the last question that you have
for tonight.
Yeah, but what if I put up a picture of like the 1980s or the 1990s?
Then what?
They can't find out where it is.
It can tell by the type of film, for one thing.
I'll tell you when...
I've used artificial intelligence to analyze pictures, and it can basically tell the era
based on clothing, based on cars, based on, like I said, the type of film that's used.
Yeah, a lot of that image recognition and other tools are able to see things that are
very small that you might not get at a first glance or you might not understand in context.
Um, you're talking, I know you've done this a couple times, but there was an antique book
that had some old pictures in it that we were, um, we scanned and then I think you ran some
through...
It was a first, I'll tell people this, it was a first copy, first edition of The Jungle.
Correct.
By either Sinclair Lewis or Upton Sinclair.
Upton Sinclair.
I always mixed them up.
Uh, and, um, uh, inside that book were about a dozen large negatives, you know, bigger than
I've ever seen negatives.
Four by five, large four.
Yeah, it was, and it was, it was bizarre.
It took us a couple of years to figure out how to, how to scan those and make them into something
that we could actually see as a picture.
Uh, it also wasn't very high priority, but you know, I figure it probably was something
that dated back to when that book came out.
And sure enough, when we, we looked at the people, they were, they were dressed in like
turn of the century, um, attire.
They were at some kind of, uh, place in the country.
And, um, you know, we, we, uh, we, we processed it through, uh, one of the large language models
and it gave some good theories, you know, it's a time period and things like that.
Uh, the, the part of the country, et cetera, but, uh, we're no close to figuring out who
those people were.
I don't think it was, uh, Upton Sinclair though.
But you think about the time, um, it takes to do that.
It can become a lead to use other technologies and, um, combine the effect of them.
This is what a lot of intelligence agencies do, but think, you know, once you have digital
copies of the individual's faces, then you could start introducing stuff like facial recognition.
Um, and that's becoming, you know, ever more affordable and accessible.
So the combination of tools like that, and then, and other things with geolocation are,
are really evolving and fast, fast and interesting ways.
So you're very, very, uh, right to ask about this because this is a consideration when people
are having phones confiscated, when they travel or things like that.
If you have original copies of things, these are, that's bits of information that would
be potentially, um, saved and could jeopardize some of your privacy.
So it's, it's definitely an important conversation.
Rob, I'm going to get to you in a second.
I just want to take this moment to say goodbye to Rebel.
Thank you for your questions.
We're going to open the phone line for somebody else.
And, uh, we'll talk to you in a future show.
All right.
Now, I guess no comment from him.
Uh, I hope he's not miffed, but whatever.
Uh, and also folks, I should point out that, uh, we're doing a call in show next, um, next week
on WBAI.
So there won't be an overtime next week.
And also if you called this show this week, please don't call next week to give someone
else a chance.
Maybe somebody who doesn't even listen to overtime.
That would be nice.
Uh, go ahead, Rob.
Just a little extra info about, uh, Exif data.
Uh, Rebel asked, uh, what about if you're using old photos from the eighties and whatnot?
Um, if you're scanning in old photos from film or paper, um, the Exif data will then very
likely contain information on the scanner you used when you scanned it, uh, possibly the username
that you're registered on your, on your software, your computer, or, you know, whatnot.
So there is other data that, uh, can identify you in a scanned image.
Um, you know, so just be on the lookout for such things.
You can't hide.
Um, by the way, let me give out the phone number 802-321-4225.
The phone lines are now open.
Go ahead, Gila.
Um, I do want to push in a question.
Also, first of all, I want to thank the chat.
There was a lively discussion about whether I am in fact an AI.
Um, and, um, and then I, okay, so the question we received, and I'm reading this as we received
it, what's your thoughts on XMR and the government trying to censor it?
I think that's the question.
I think that's talking about Monero XMR, which is, um, a cryptocurrency that's known to be used
in a lot of listed transactions because it's a closed ledger type of system on the blockchain
and, and defies trackability.
Um, I, I don't know a lot about what's going on with that.
I think that it, or rather, if the government is trying to crack down on it, it's really doing
it through like a KYC or AML type of perspective, uh, through the, through those types of compliance
requirements for know your customer and, um, anti-money laundering regulations.
So I think what they're trying to do is just basically make it unavailable in the United
States by not having it be traded at all on major exchanges that Americans, uh, with which
Americans can interact.
So I think that's what they're trying to do is to try to kind of crush it into oblivion.
But also my understanding is, I think there was a pretty recent price spike in it because
of, um, I actually don't remember what caused it, but I think there was some really significant
movement.
And so, so that could be another angle by which they tried to regulate it as well, that
it could be, um, you know, too volatile for people to, to be holding or something.
So, yeah, weird, but I, I wish I knew more about it, but great question.
All right.
802-321-4225 is our phone number.
I believe the phone lines are open still, Kyle.
Is that true?
No.
Maybe it's not true anymore.
The phone is ringing.
Um, okay.
Well, let's, uh, see who is online and, uh, welcome.
This is Overtime.
Good evening.
Hello.
This is Lou Ichu from Washington, D.C.
I still hear a little bit of the hum, actually.
Uh, interesting because last week you couldn't hear the hum, but we heard the hum.
Oh, wait, no, no, no, never mind.
It's interference from my own, uh, analog line.
Ah, oh, that's a relief to hear because our, in and out a second, but nope.
Our phone line is, is, is, is clean, clean as a bell this, uh, this week.
This is a temporary setup, but we're trying to do better.
Yeah.
So what's, what's on your mind this week?
Yeah, all right, so, um, about XS, the newer iPhones do a pretty good job of allowing you
to remove excess, XS data from photos and videos you upload.
Like, there's a little button at the bottom of the screen that chooses what you can share.
And that's pretty, that's pretty helpful because, I mean, not all platforms, uh, have a content
delivery network that will process these images.
Like, if I put them, let's say I upload them to a file sharing service, and that would not
remove the XS if it would keep it as is.
And I'd still have the location of the photo I took it for iPhone.
That's usually enabled by default.
Mm-hmm.
Of course, the phone you took it, the specifications of the camera, et cetera, so, yeah.
I just wonder if, um, uh, somewhere in law enforcement, they're trying to figure out a way
that they can override these settings on a suspect's phone, where, you know, somebody turns it off
saying, yeah, I'm safe now, my, my, my pictures won't have any metadata in them, and, uh, you
know, Detective Sipowicz can just say, oh, you know what, we're going to override this using
this particular, uh, Trump-era law that was passed, uh, that allows us to just sneak
in to the settings and turn it back on, and they'll never be the wiser.
Uh, you know, I'll bet somebody is trying to figure this out.
Um, I bet you, well, I, go ahead, go ahead.
One of you, go ahead, Kyle, Kyle, you go ahead and go ahead.
I think there are a variety of techniques where that is possible, um, in,
certain cases, I think with printers and stuff, there's been stories about
steganographic techniques where you hide information.
Yes, the yellow dots.
Yeah, exactly. That came out in, um, one of the leaks from the Intercept, I think,
that got somebody in trouble, I think, reality winner, I think, her case.
Uh-huh.
Something like that could be at, yeah, some of that stuff could be at play in any given
situation. This is where, um, that's a different level of, uh, of, I guess, expertise as far as
extracting information, finding out if that is indeed something that is incorporated into
the design of the, the phone's camera or any kind of camera. Um, but that, that I think
would require, um, a little bit more as far as, um, filtering, let's say, like, um, uh, what is
often, what is becoming more popular with some of the, um, AI and, and, uh, machine learning
models is to poison photos so that they cannot be easily understood. But, um, in that case, I mean,
that's, that would need, like, a little bit more, um, academic, uh, research and some
understanding of where that's been applied. But you gotta imagine stuff like that could
be, it could be possible. But, um, it's why it's, I think, good to get in healthy habits
as far as the, um, the removal of, of EXIF data, uh, as just a first layer of obscuring
things that you want, uh, to keep that information sort of, uh, away from being public, being made
public in some way. So if you have a particular photo that needs to get out, but you don't want
it to be as easily traced, you might look into some, uh, mix of different tools to reprocess that
image. And just as simple as like, like with the case of using a scanner for old photos, like
rebel was talking about in the last call, you, you could just resave them without any of that data.
So it wouldn't even say anything about your scanner. You'd just be talking about a file that was created
at a certain point. And maybe you could even change that date, you know, the, all kinds of techniques
and depending on how serious a threat or what you're concerned about, you'd have to employ all
of them or some combination. And you'd have to rigorously, um, look, go ahead and look for
puzzles and patterns like that. If it's something that's being encoded visually and, and so on and
so forth. So, uh, you can read a lot more about all of those kinds of techniques and where they've
been employed beyond just, uh, the few minutes we have here.
Right. That reminds me of when a couple of years ago, when people figured out how to de-censor,
uh, uh, pictures and videos that were censored with a pixelate filter. That's pretty interesting
because that should be a destructive, an operation that cannot be undone, but turns out it is using
math. I think the only, I think the only safe way to censor, uh, graphics is just to put a big
black box all over it and it's crude and TV definitely won't like it, but I mean, that's the
gold standard and the easiest way to do it, uh, less computationally, uh, intensive than pixelation
or Gaussian blur. Has anybody figured out how to unblur Gaussian blurred images?
Anyone, anyone working on that?
I honestly, I don't know off the top of my head, but absolutely stuff that is created mathematically,
like effects like blur or the pixelate effect, you would want to maybe reduce that pixelate
down to very few numbers. Uh, not something that is, um, easily discernible either, you know,
get it down to like three colors or something. The blurs I think are also easier. The swirls,
those don't work, but yeah, like creating a opaque box or layer, actually removing the content from an
image, then putting a box to fill that, then making sure you flatten it. You know, there are lots and
lots of instructions on how to correctly redact things. And this has actually come out in, in public
filings and government, governmental, uh, documents that haven't been properly prepared. So it's a wide
field of interest.
Rob might have an answer.
Yeah, there, um, there are very interesting things that, uh, you can do with blurred and, uh, pixelated
images to, you know, math works both ways generally. And if you do something with math, um, you can find
math that can help take it back in the other direction. It, uh, won't always be perfect. In
fact, it will very rarely be perfect, but you'll have something like the, uh, the original. I remember
cases, this was, this is going way back, like in the nineties, um, early two thousands, maybe where
there were photos going around of like, um, sexual abuse material, uh, and you know, the guilty parties
were posting these online, but with their faces blurred or pixelated or whatever. And people were
able to undo the blurs to get enough of a look at, uh, what the person looked like that they could
be caught. Now, um, when, when you throw things like generative AI into it, the keyword is generative
where that's a computer generating stuff that it thinks might be there. And you can't trust that
as a evidence of anything, because that is, uh, that is like new information being added to the image
that may or may not be based on anything, um, that is trustworthy. So, um, generative AI is
something that's being used to create really unreliable, uh, looks at what might be under the
blur, but, uh, pure math can, uh, can take you a lot of the way there in a surprisingly, surprising
amount of cases. Does that answer your questions, caller?
Carla, are you still there?
Right.
Okay. Does that answer your questions?
Oh, yes. You just cut. Yes. There is just a bit of a problem with my connection for a moment,
but yeah, it seems like magic. You shouldn't be able to undo these things that seem undoable,
but they actually are. On another note, I mean, I'm pretty, I'm pretty skeptical of the AI models
that are supposedly are able to predict, you know, what, um, how do I phrase it? What,
where your image was taken? Yes. I have a lot of pictures on a, well, I use a pretty old digital
camera. It's maybe 10 years old and it doesn't have a GPS. And I use a lot to take photos of my
equipment because I do solder and stuff. I need to take a photo for reference. If it's just a picture
like, uh, you know, my house, you know, my shed where I have all my old computer stuff,
is that really something, is that, is it really possible to tell where that was taken? If there's
no access, no GPS or anything? I don't think so. It's a different story. However, if you, you know,
you're taking a picture of your house, you know, a lot of people out there are pretty skilled
actually at, uh, take, uh, deciphering an address just from a picture of the house, finding out where
it is. Yeah. A lot of, um, real estate is done with like 3d and, um, 360 degree and drone photography
and 3d, uh, walkthroughs of the internal spaces. So however you acquired your house, if it's been on
the market before that inside may be, um, well understood and it may even be in like a, a CAD or
BIM, you know, 3d space in some engine somewhere. Uh, yeah, it's, there's a lot more possibility now
because there's just the ability to in, to encode our spaces outside and in, in digital form and
catalog and organize it has just grown so exponentially. It's, it's so affordable. So yeah,
you may have a particular space or a particular part of a building that you're in that hasn't been
seen anywhere ever, uh, in a digital way. Um, but the further out, the further out into common spaces
you get and the more published that space has ever been, it may get harder and harder.
It's only going to get more and more sophisticated. Go ahead, Rob.
The, the, an interesting, uh, an interesting case happened some years ago with a pop star in, um,
an Asian country. I don't remember if it was a career or Japan or somewhere, but it was a famous pop
star with a lot of, uh, say obsessive fans. And one of them took a photo that she had posted to
social media, zoomed in on the reflection in her glasses, which, uh, had a view out her window,
matched that up with basically manually going through the area where she lived, um, on Google
street view and using that to figure out where exactly this celebrity lived. And, uh, you know,
that's, that's one person out there who flipped their wig and decided to be that obsessive about it,
but it is, uh, an, an example of what you can do with, uh, a lot of effort and, uh, you don't even
need, uh, any kind of AI or computers to help you with that. Now that is a stalker. That is a proper
stalker. Yeah. Any, any final words, caller? We gotta, we gotta move on. Right. Um, about hope. I won't
be making it to the next hope conference. You know, the stars have not, and moons have not aligned.
Hopefully the one after this one. Okay. I actually, I actually, what, what? I said, okay.
Yes. Right. I was actually, I, let's see, which one, the last one. Yes. I actually broadcasted
over analog TV. It was pretty fun. Oh, wow. Coming up with the setup for it.
Uh-huh. Interesting as well. I think I heard about that. I think I remember that. Yeah.
Cool. Well, you know, you can still, you can still participate remotely as well. Uh, we have
virtual tickets and, uh, the whole thing will be online. So, uh, uh, we, so hopefully we just
get enough people to make the thing worthwhile. So that's, that's what we're working for right
now. Yes, of course. Um, I'd like to give a, I'd like to talk a bit about the equipment
I use because it's pretty remarkable how cheap, uh, how cheap some of that stuff is. Um, let's
see. Um, well, first of all, my choice to, uh, broadcast it over analog TV. I probably
won't do that again, mainly because of the complications of finding equipment that can
still operate in those bands. A lot of digital TV, uh, move once it went digital there, they
moved over to UHS. Right. Because with the digital system, it's called ATSC. Uh-huh. You
can just put it, you can, yes, you can just, uh, tell it to display whatever number you
want. And that doesn't reflect the actual frequency that has been transmitted on.
Right. Yeah. The virtual channels and the actual channels. I learned a lot about this
actually, because, uh, uh, we've been experimenting with over the air digital signals and it turns
out what you say is right. A lot of stations did move to UHF because unlike with analog TV,
VHF is now at a disadvantage and you get less coverage, uh, than with UHF. So the, the old
UHF channels, uh, those frequencies have a big advantage, but it's, you know, I have to
say it is so disappointing because, um, the, the signal strength that does not match what
used to be the case with analog, where you could get something from a distance here, you
pretty much have to point directly at the place you want to receive a signal from and
hope that something's there and give up all the other directions that a signal could be coming
from. I don't really think we gained very much from that transition. Yes, of course. It's a
signal that is digital in nature. You either get it or you don't. There's no in between. It's like
the, was it the area code plan? You know, they don't mean anything anymore. So it is with a digital
TV. Some of them, uh, if you have an option to show the real frequency on some TVs, which is pretty
useful. But I mean, some people use free, some people even break out frequency scanners just to
see exactly where these channels are. And that's important for pirate analog TV because you want to
make sure your signal, of course, isn't interfering with anybody else. But I mean, like I said, I won't
be doing that, uh, doing that again for hope because I don't know anybody here in my area is tuned to
analog TV. If I would do it again, if I do it again, I'll probably do just a pirate FM because
think about it. A lot of people here still have cars with that. It would have an FM tuner built.
Of course. Yeah. But you know, you can, you can find people who have digital TV just by walking
through your neighborhood and looking for TV antennas. Yes, right. Outdoor antennas. And there's the
question of, there's a question of, are they used or are they not anymore? You know, some people
get cable and those antennas are no longer used. True. But digital antennas look a little
different. And, uh, if they have those, that means they at least tried after the transition.
Well, you can use a regular VHF, UHF, uh, whatever antennas you use for analog, they'll still work for
digital ATSC. Okay. Yeah. Right. There's not really that big of a difference. It is, like I said,
it's more, more people, more, more people with their cars tuned to FM tuners. It's much more.
Yes. The whole thing about pirate broadcasting, you want people to actually tune in. Who's going to,
too. I mean, yeah. And you know, something else I really want to recommend to people is, um, uh,
SDF radio, uh, which Kyle, maybe you could say a couple of words about, but basically,
you know, you're able to SDR. I'm sorry, SDR. I got that mixed up. SDR radio, because basically,
and you don't have to say radio again, SDR, uh, which basically allows you, uh, to, um, to listen
to a frequency of your choice in a different part of the world. And you can, you can change the dial
and anybody can do this at the same time. It's really incredible. There's one, I don't have the
URL in front of me, but there's one service in, in the Netherlands. Uh, no, actually it's a dot edu
address, I think. And it's, it's one of the first ones listed for a web SDR, uh, search. It's, it's
incredible because you can find pirate stations that way, pirate stations on shortwave that are
broadcasting all over the world. Uh, you can also find government stations. You can find, uh, uh,
stations in the United States. You can find data transmissions. And not only that, there are chats,
uh, for, uh, what's called what you can listen to on that service and, uh, explanations about every
broadcaster that, uh, they have information for. So there, there, there are many ways to listen and,
and, and view, um, from, from transmissions, but I'd encourage you to keep, uh, playing around with
and messing around with digital TV as well. Yes. Right. I love hope. I love the idea of
broadcasting it over the analog channels. Thank you for anybody out there in Washington,
DC, like me. There's also ShmooCon, which I don't think has been mentioned, uh, very much on this
show. I don't think they're having that anymore. Wasn't this year the last one? Really? That's what
I heard. Well, I'm not, I'm not sure. I would expect it to continue, but the last ShmooCon
was this January and I actually forgot about it. I, I didn't follow up on that, but I think
the previous one I was reminded about because I actually bumped into someone in the grocery
store who's sporting Shmoo merch. And that was a pretty magical experience to be meeting
one of my own. You know, yeah, you wouldn't expect that, would you? Yeah. I'm looking at
the Wikipedia page and ShmooCon was an American hacker convention. So I don't, you know, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm sad. I never got to go to it. Uh, but yeah, but it just goes to show you,
you, you gotta treasure these things while they're around. Yeah. I would have loved to be there.
All right. Thank you so much for your call. All right. Goodbye. All right. Take care.
All right. Like slamming that receiver down, don't you, Kyle? I'll do it again. That's a,
that's a, that's a, that's a regular bell phone you got there. You want to tell us what kind of
phone that is? I know our last caller would appreciate what kind of phone this is. It's
a Western electric, right? It is. It's a 2,500 DMGC. Wow. I think something like that. I'm pretty
sure he said he was calling from a 2,500 a week or two ago. So yeah, it's got some extra features.
It's not really using, but like it's, I don't know. I forgot what the R key does.
Uh, probably redial. Maybe. Yeah. What else could it be? So it's a button to the left of the star
that says R. Uh, I'm not going to press it. No, don't, well, we didn't dial anything. So
this is part of another system. It's kind of a miracle that works at all. It's a miracle.
Anything works around here. Uh, we only have a couple minutes left. So if someone's going to call
in, they have to do it quickly and it has to be a quick call, uh, 802-321-4225. And within
two minutes, we will, um, we will stop talking. Uh, and there's a phone call. Let's, uh, take
this one. And, um, and good evening. You're on off the hook over time. Go ahead. Speak
up, please. Is anyone there? No, I guess they, they chickened out the last second. All right. Um,
minute and a half more. 802-321-4225. Did anyone in Signal Land have any comments?
Uh, just, I, I did make it to ShmooCon once. I never successfully got a ShmooCon ticket,
but, uh, I, I was given one once and, uh, it was definitely an interesting, uh, experience. Total
singular vibe to ShmooCon that, uh, isn't quite like any, any of the other conferences.
Yeah. Well, all the conferences are different. That's, that's one thing for sure. Uh, ShmooCon
was, was unique. Uh, hope is unique. Uh, DEF CON is unique. They're all different. Um, okay.
Let's take this phone call. Good evening. You're on off the hook over time. Go ahead.
Hello. How is everybody? Uh, we're pretty much okay. I think for the most part. Yeah,
I think we're all right. How are you? Good. So I have been doing a lot of promo for WBAI recently
because they actually did a benefit concert on May 3rd. Um, and now there's another advertising
opportunity that's kind of a no brainer. Um, the dance parade is Saturday and it has a hundred
thousand people, almost a hundred thousand people along the route. And there's this really funny,
fun, uh, float called the house coalition float. And so I reached out to the, um, general
manager and haven't heard back from him yet. Um, his email is GM at WBA.org. I'm encouraging
him to, um, advertise on the side of the float and then have people flyering on the side, you
know, and on it. And, um, it costs $325 for, um, it, for WBAI to advertise to the outside because
more listeners equals more money for the station. So I'm encouraging everybody to please email him
because so far I'm the only person that's reached out to him. And it's very easy to ignore someone
when you're the only one asking them for something. So, um, it would be a great symbiotic, um,
thing because they don't have a lot of sponsors right now. And, um, uh, in rainbow gathering land,
we celebrate interdependence day because we realize that we really do all need each other.
Very true. Can you tell us more about this parade? Is there a link to learn more about that?
Um, yeah, so I sent him actually, it's all, all events or something. I don't have the actual link,
but it's totally like the dance parade that's been around for 18 years. And there's, they're
actually, um, like victorious people, right? So I've, they, they outlawed the cabaret law.
So I now only surround myself with victorious people. So yeah. That's pretty awesome. Yeah.
Yeah. Cool. So yeah, it's a dance parade. And if anybody wants to look up, you know,
like riding on a float or house coalition, um, the, the thing will come up like the sponsorship page
and there's like all these different levels. And the one that's the best is, um, the boogie down
sponsor one. And you get like three people to ride on the float and your, uh, stuff, you know,
your banners on the side and they're encouraging. I got in touch with the, um, parade organizer and the
float, um, person. And they both were like, bring two banners. Yes. We love WBAI. So.
And, uh, two more things. Uh, when is the parade and what route does the parade generally take?
So it's Saturday and I did reach out to the general manager starting Friday. So we really do need
people to be like, dude, no brainer. $325, totally reasonable for a hundred to almost. So,
and it starts, um, uh, like 18th street and like Broadway ish and goes down and then definitely
makes a left onto eight street, AKA St. Mark's place, which is where the, um, uh, you know,
like where that cube is that you can push. That's the place. Right. Yeah. That's what the
grandstand is going to be. And Jeannie Hopper, our old ex house. Yeah. Yeah. I used to listen
to her all the time. She is going to be the MC there. And so you get to like hear about each
like dancer as they go by 10,000 dancers. You can imagine how many more parade watchers,
right? A lot of dancing there. Wow. So we, we need the WBAI street team like in effect.
Yeah, totally. Out there. That's a great idea. That's so smart. Yes. Thanks. And they need flyers
and they're up on the WBAI website already, but they're from the, um, they're from, they're like
old. So Spanish side needs to be on the other one. So if you looked on WBAI marketing and advertising
page, you'll see, uh, Pete's secret tribute concert. Cause unfortunately they weren't able
to like correctly label it like WBAI benefit concert. And so if you click on it, the second page
because they're double sided, like half size flyers, dig? So unless you click on it, you
don't even see the second side. So that's what would be handed out. It would be like English
on one side, Spanish on the other, instead of the other side being the advertisement for
the event of the concert. Cause that passed. All right. Well, thanks so much for your support
and for the great ideas and, and have a blast this, this weekend.
We will. Thank you. All right. Take care. That's a, that's a good note to end on. I
think people trying to, trying to help come up with ideas and support the, uh, the place
we all know and love. Each one is a step. It's a step along the way, supporting the station,
supporting community, supporting one another. And, uh, we, uh, we absolutely got to consider
getting out there, being visible, having, um, having something to say alongside that presence.
So that's a great idea. It's a good thing for all of us to be thinking about in, in many
regards. And if you want to support the station in other ways, buddy.wbai.org is the website
that gives you all kinds of, um, options, uh, including one of our favorites, making a small
monthly payment each month that adds up over the year and, uh, uh, makes us all that much
more solid as far as, uh, being able to survive from month to month.
Absolutely. And if you like, uh, phone calls, you can call our pledge phone number,
which is 1-833-WBAI-NYC, which, uh, translates to 833-922-4692. For those of you who like numerals
and, uh, there you can, you can become a BAI buddy. You could make a one-time donation.
Just let him know that, uh, you're calling on behalf of Off The Hook.
All right. That's going to do it for us here tonight. I want to thank everybody for listening.
You've been listening to Off The Hook Overtime. Write to us, OTH at 2600.com. And again, next week,
we will be doing a call-in show on WBAI from 7 to 8. No overtime next week. And, uh, we'll see you
back here on YouTube in two weeks, eight o'clock on, uh, channel 2600. Uh, until then, please spread the
word of hope, hope.net. Get some, uh, some more attendees coming. And, uh, if you have an idea for a talk or a
panel, you still have time to put that together and, um, and, uh, email that in. All the information
is up at hope.net. All right. Have a good night, everybody.