BELL RINGS
And a very good evening to everybody. The program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle, behind the scenes here.
Yes, I'm here.
It's a good thing you're behind the scenes, because what you had to do to get us on the air just now, wow.
Also out in Signal Land, we have Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
We have Gila.
Good evening.
And we have Alex somewhere. Where are you, Alex?
Yeah, it's good morning from Barcelona.
Wow. Is it morning? I guess it is. It's 1 o'clock in the morning there.
That's something.
Well, that's a beautiful city. I'm sorry we're keeping you indoors.
Although autumn is hitting us here for some reason, so that's kind of a surprise.
But Alex, I'm glad I have you, because I wanted to ask you something.
And please, if anybody else knows the answer to this, keep your mouth shut, because it's a test for Alex,
and a test for Alex only as a leading attorney in the United States of America.
Yeah. I would like you to tell me what the phrase habeas corpus means, without looking up anything.
Can you tell me this?
No. Habeas corpus, it's a Latin phrase that has to deal with the, it's the ability of holding the body, essentially.
Like, it's almost as if, it's a strange phrase. I actually think it's the subjunctive form of the verb habere in Latin.
Can you not be a wise-ass about this, and tell me what it means insofar as the government, the country, habeas corpus?
Yeah. Well, it's the right to have somebody in custody.
The right to have somebody in custody.
Yes. I mean, habeas corpus is essentially about, literally, the Latin phrase itself.
I thought that's what you were talking about. Is that what you wanted to know?
Yeah. I wanted to know what habeas corpus, I was talking about it in the States, so I just wanted to know what it means,
what it is as far as legal doctrine.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's literally, it's Latin for the phrase of, like, you may hold the body.
But the thing is that it never made a lot of sense to me, the actual Latin, because corpus, I think, is the, is not the accusative form.
So it's not the direct object of habere.
So it was always actually a little bit of an awkward thing to me.
Okay. We're diving into the deep end of the pool here, and that's, I just wanted to wait a little bit.
The Latin roots, that's a whole show right there.
But as far as, when you are referring to habeas corpus, insofar as people being held in custody or sent out of the country.
Yeah. Well, it's all about, the habeas corpus essentially really has to do with the right of any kind of government.
To hold a person within custody.
And when you seek a writ of habeas corpus, you're basically asking for a hearing before a judge about whether there are lawful grounds to hold that person, to detain that person in custody.
So it's, it's rights for the person or rights for the government?
No, it's a, it's a right of the person.
Okay.
It's a right of, that an individual has.
It's a writ that they, they can petition.
That's what I was trying to get.
Okay.
Well, Alex, the, the Secretary of Homeland Security does not agree with you.
Yeah.
It's not right.
I'm not surprised.
Well, I mean, who are you going to believe?
Who are you going to believe?
Somebody on a radio show or somebody who heads the Department of Homeland Security?
Kristi Nolm, of course, I'm talking about.
Um, she maintains that habeas corpus is a constitutional right that the president has to be able to remove people from this country.
Now, what are you saying?
Do you, uh, there in Barcelona, in a foreign country, are you actually daring to say that the Secretary of Homeland Security does not know what habeas corpus is?
That would be an unequivocal yes.
Have you booked your ticket back yet?
Uh, no.
That would be an unequivocal yes.
All right.
You might want to, um, might want to see what your passport status is.
Uh, but yeah, she said that.
She actually said that.
And boy, it took a long time for us to get to the answer.
But, but yeah, my, my, my point was that, um, uh, anybody, uh, who, who is, uh, um, in, in the legal profession has to know what this is.
And she's heading this huge department that decides a lot of things for people, for the country.
And she doesn't know what this, this basic thing means at all.
And you have to wonder what else doesn't she know?
What else don't a lot of people who have been put in unbelievable amounts, uh, unbelievable positions of power, what else they don't know?
And what state that puts all of us in?
Um, it's just, um, it's a little bit troubling.
Oh, it's, it's very troubling.
You know, I, I saw when I was traveling and, and leaving the United States, I saw some video with the secretary of, of DHS.
And of course, you know, um, I, I think when I was waiting online to go through the, uh, the TSA scan or something, and I had no idea who this person was until that point.
And I, I thought to myself, who, who is this person?
And I mean, it just the visage of her, you know, who she is, the dog, the dog killer, you know, who she is.
Yeah, I guess I, you know, I honestly, it's hard for me to keep track of all of the cabinet positions here.
And, um, and that, and the various unqualified persons to, you know, whom have been appointed to these positions.
And during the, the first term, the first Trump term, I felt like I had to track this very, very carefully.
And now, and, and I think this is just part of the problem too, is that it becomes so burdensome to keep all of this in your mind.
I have plenty of other things that are more interesting to think about than Christy Noem.
Well, yes, that may be true, but, um, the importance is not lessened at all.
Uh, it's, um, it's something we do need to keep track of because these people, uh, decide our fate in many ways.
They're deciding, uh, who gets to, uh, stay in our country, uh, who gets to, uh, be sent to a maximum security prison,
despite having not committed a crime, um, and, and, and so many other things, uh, deciding if we're going to have access to vaccines this year.
Um, there, anything, are we going to war, uh, is, um, are we going to pay huge amounts of money for basic things?
Any, any question you could imagine, they, they can decide for us now.
Gila, go ahead.
So recently I was at the grocery store.
They had the radio playing in the grocery store and I heard an advertisement on the radio and it was Christy Noem talking to people who need to self-report themselves to the government.
If it was, I, I, I'm not even entirely sure what she was trying to advertise other than encouraging people to report themselves to the government so they wouldn't be deported or they could do it legally.
I know, I know the answer to your question.
She's advertising fear.
That is what she is pushing.
And it did make me incredibly grateful for WBAI because that kind of stuff doesn't happen on these airwaves.
Well, no, we don't have advertisements by Christy Noem or, or any, or anyone else.
Any of these idiots that, um, are for now in power, but my God, how much damage are they going to do?
But, uh, to, to continue along your point, yes, keep WBAI going by pledging your support, um, WBAI.org, buddy.wbai.org, I believe is the website where you can pledge a monthly amount and help us pay the rent, help us pay the electric, help us keep going.
It's so important to have these discussions and tonight, tonight is our fun monthly call-in show.
It was supposed to be last week, but since, uh, we, we had some phone problems, uh, in the weeks before, uh, for our overtime show, which is not on tonight, uh, we pushed it back a week and now it's tonight.
So, if you give us a call, the phone number, get ready, it's not the usual phone number, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK is our telephone number.
And, um, you can ask us any questions or you can, um, um, share information that you have.
Um, this is for listeners to the radio station because usually we take phone calls when we do our YouTube section that starts at eight o'clock.
And again, that's not going to be on this week. Uh, we, uh, we'll take phone calls only between seven and eight.
And I believe I hear the, uh, telephone ringing. Is that, uh, is that not true, Kyle? We have a phone call coming in.
Okay. Maybe we should pick up the phone. Um, all right. The phone has been picked up and we are about to say good evening.
You're on off the hook. Go ahead.
Yes, Emmanuel. I still hear the hum.
Uh, there is a slight hum, but only when you don't speak. So maybe don't stop speaking.
Oh, that's better. Okay.
Yeah. If you speak, you don't hear the hum, but it's, it's, it's a minor hum compared to the hum we had before. This is nothing.
Okay. I would like to ask you, Emmanuel.
Yes. Rebel. This is our, our traditional first caller, no matter where we happen to be. He always manages to get in first. Yes, please.
Okay. I would like to ask you the following about how does the type of phone system work where back in the eighties and nineties way, when you called like an airline or a hotel or like a car rental agency, you say like all representatives are busy, please hold.
And then they just, you know, like play music or whatever. And then they connect you with the next available representative. But let's say, I mean, like one of their, let's say they have several locations throughout the country.
And they route you to the one that's closest to you. This is the same question you asked us weeks ago, but that is your question, right?
They transfer the phone call to a different service center. I mean, are you asking in the past or right now?
Now, not that it really makes a difference in the past. You know, it wasn't as sophisticated, but they could, they could route calls, uh, maybe not as easily as today, but they could easily say, well, let's send the overflow over to Denver because they have open lines.
You know, it's not.
Okay. Whatever noise this is, that's on your end. That's not on our end. Uh, Rob, I think you have something to say about this.
Yeah. Um, back in the day, big businesses would have, uh, what was known as a PBX, a private branch exchange. And that was basically a mini version of the switching equipment that, uh, the phone company ran with their own operators.
And, uh, so they would have a building would have their own telephone operator, basically, uh, handling the routing of calls. This is when it was done manually. And later it could be done automatically by, by an electronic system.
Um, but, uh, just as operators could, uh, zap and forward calls back and forth across the phone system, um, people running PBXs, uh, could interlink them and, uh, zap calls back and forth between different locations of their organization.
So if you call up con huge co in New York, uh, they could transfer you to their Philadelphia office or, you know, wherever else con huge co con huge co.
Okay. All right. I believe it. Uh, rebel, you have one more question. Then we have to move on.
Oh, I think rebel already has moved on. Okay. Well, he's too fast for us. 802-321-4225 is our phone number.
And again, we ask that, uh, you keep it brief because there are many people who want to call in and we only do this once a month. In fact, sometimes only once every five weeks, 802-321-4225.
And, um, the phone is ringing again. I should also point out that we only have one phone line here at our remote studios.
So if you're not the person that's on the line now, you might be calling and getting a voicemail. If you get voicemail call back because we'll never be able to get you out of there.
Okay. Yeah. Good evening. You're on off the hook, um, off the hook. Go ahead. Speak up, please.
I don't hear anybody. Is the, uh, phone connected, Kyle? I don't think it is. That might be related to the crazy sound that rebel was making before.
Can we get a Dalton? Let's try getting a Dalton. No, we're, we're kind of, kind of dead here.
All right. I'm going to leave this up. If you can figure out what's, what's going on with the phone.
Sorry, folks. We're having a more phone problems for some reason. I don't know. This phone is cursed.
We had one phone call and it was rebel. I don't know if we can get any worse than that. Um,
this is where I throw it to the people out in, uh, signal land. Tell us, tell us a story or something.
Well, I do have one quick suggestion for folks. If you can't call us right now, um, which is take your
phone and call this number instead. 1-833-WBAINYC. Uh, if you like numbers, that's 833-922-4692 and make a
pledge to keep us going, um, when our technical difficulties are sorted. Um, but yes, take a
moment, make a pledge to the radio station, keep us going here and hear fewer ads by Christy Noem.
I think everybody wins. Absolutely. That, that is a big win, uh, not having to listen to Christy Noem.
Um, because, uh, yeah, uh, we are not going to take advertisements from Christy Noem on this station.
We are not going to take advertisements from a soda company telling you what to drink. We are not going
to take advertisements from entertainment companies telling you which overpriced movies to go and see.
The only reason, the only reason we are on the air is because you listening to this, you out there,
the BAI community have kept this station going for many, many years. And, uh, you're the only thing
that's going to keep us going. Call us, uh, 833-WBAINYC to make a pledge. That's 833-922-4692,
or go online and do it at buddy.wbai.org. That's B-U-D-D-Y.W-B-A-I.org. And, uh, make sure to let
them know that, uh, you are making your donation, um, as an off the hook listener, because, uh, that,
that helps us, uh, that helps the station and that helps you, uh, continue to get what we do and,
uh, can, and keeps us, keeps us doing it. Um, in other news, we, we were alerted to a very sad
piece of news. Hang on one second. Oh. Yeah, we have our dial tone back so we can take phone
calls again, but, uh, continue your sad news. 802-321-4225. Yes. Um, we were informed that
our friend John Young, uh, founder of Cryptome, uh, passed away back in, uh, March on, uh, March 28th
at age 89. Um, he was, uh, he was one of the cypherpunks, uh, a real, uh, supporter of encryption
and, uh, you know, controlling the flow of your own data. Um, and, uh, just started and did so
many things. He spoke at H2K2. He's been on this program in the past. Um, I looked it up. He was on
our show in 2013. We had him in the studio and, uh, he was, uh, he was a really interesting fella,
really, uh, with a lot to say, a lot to share with the world and a lot of, uh, ways in which he
directly affected change, I think. So I know we had him on the air, um, after the, uh, DECSS trial
back in 2000. So that was, that was great fun, uh, hanging out with him as well. You were saying
about EFF? Yeah, the, the EFF has a, has a very good, uh, obituary posted for him. If you go to
EFF.org and, uh, search for, um, just search for John Young, you'll find it. And it, it is an
extensive, uh, look into his, his life, his work and the, uh, reasons he will be missed.
All right. Yes. Um, uh, definitely a, um, uh, a fascinating life, a productive life
and, um, worth, uh, if the website, uh, has any information on a cryptome.org
C-R-Y-P-T-O-M-E. Um, Kyle, I just want to thank you by being behind the scenes. Somehow you were able
to figure out what was going on with our phone this week. Uh, and we got our, our, um, our phone line
back. So, so we're lucky we have him in the, in the, in the background here. Yes, it was a battery
issue for some battery issue, uh, backup hybrid, but yeah, yeah, always is. All right. Uh, we have
a phone call. Good evening. You're on off the hook. Go ahead. Speak up, please. How do you, uh,
how do you track the location of an 800 number? Is it possible? Uh, well, 800 numbers carry what's
known as A&I, automatic number identification. So, uh, whenever you call an 800 number, you
can't block that. You can't do a star six, seven in front of that. Uh, you have rebel next to you,
don't you? You have rebel coaching you. Okay. He told me, he told me to call. Yeah. All right. Rebel,
very clever, very clever. If we hear your voice or your influence again tonight though, you will be
banned and we will enforce it. Thank you for that call. Can you believe it? Can you believe
the gall? 802-321-4225. It is nice that he meet a friend though. Did he though? That sounded like he
was being coerced. I don't know. I don't know. Uh, 802-321-4225. Please dial faster than, um, some of
the other people out there. And again, um, everybody but rebel is welcome to call that line
right now. All right. Here we go again. And good evening. You're on off the hook. Go ahead.
Hey, good evening guys. Hey, what's up? I want to, I want Christy Noem to listen up. Okay. Habeas corpus.
Yes. Okay. Any of several common law writs having for their object to bring a party before a court or
judge, a writ for inquiring into the lawfulness of the restraint of a person who is imprisoned or
detained in another's custody. I hope this is a 1935 history book. I hope Christy Noem and the rest of
those idiots can learn something from this. All right. Do you really think they can? Do you
really think they have any hope? They're beyond learning. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. This is the sickest
bunch we've ever had assembled in a White House in, in, in history. It really is. I don't see how,
even if you, um, uh, support that party, how you can disagree with that because, um, not knowing
basic things like this, it's so troubling. It's so worrisome. Well, it's like when I got sent
to court in Fairhaven, New Jersey because of my tree service trucks on my property, the code
enforcement woman wrote up, wrote up these summonses against me. Every time she went over
one, she had to go in front of the judge, open this big giant book because she didn't
know what she's like, Christy Noem. She didn't know what she was talking about. So once we got
out of the clan town that I live in, my new lawyer, we took it to Freehold Superior Court
and the judge threw the whole thing out. Yep. And that judge probably knows the law
because judges are supposed to know the law. He was, uh, he was the planning board judge
for the city of New Brunswick, New Jersey. And I couldn't have looked out better because
he knew more about my property than I did or the town did. Wow. Uh, Alex, do you have
anything to add to this? No, I think he's got it right on there with our, with our caller.
Great show, guys. Thank you. I've been listening to your show for years and, um, my dad loved
it and a lot of my relatives love your show. Thank you. That's so good to hear. Thank you
for calling. Thank you so much. All right. Take care. Yep. Good night. Yep. 802-321-4225.
And you know, I, I would, I would put forth that almost any listener to Off the Hook or to
WBAI in general is far better qualified to be the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.
I know everybody here is, I, Alex, I know you certainly are, but, um, you know, to, just,
uh, to know the basic things, you know, and, and, and, and take the time to learn. She doesn't
even do that. None of them do that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, I just, uh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
want to suffer the pay cut. I'll put it that way. Well, I think they're getting plenty. I think
they're getting quite a bit. Yeah. Um, all right. 802-321-4225. Phone lines are open.
Uh, I'd like to, uh, read a couple of letters too. You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
David writes to tell us that the dial tone is an F natural. Okay. I don't know what that
means exactly. That's a musical term. F natural. Okay. You know, I can never learn these things,
but, uh, all right. Is that true? I don't know what it means, but sure.
I mean, we can find a tone simulator and check it, but I'm pretty, pretty confident that,
yeah. Is there an F unnatural? Yeah. There's F sharp and things of that nature. Then there's
F. Did you never walk into a music classroom that had a sign up that said sometimes be sharp,
never be flat, always be natural? I never saw that. No, no. Oh, you missed out.
Oh, good. Go ahead. Okay. Let's, um, let's go to another phone call and good evening. You're
on off of the hook. Go ahead. Oh, hi. Uh, welcome from overseas. Uh, there's currently going through,
uh, but, uh, it's not all doom and gloom though, is it? There's a little going through,
uh, uh, but, uh, it's not all doom and gloom though, is it? There's a lot of interesting
things happening with, uh, technology and science of these days. Uh-huh. Well, can I ask what
country you're calling from? Uh, Norway. Uh, oh, Norway. Okay. Yeah. Uh, lifetime subscriber
it's 2600. So, uh, big ups for keeping that, uh, publication going. Uh, but, uh, there's
a journal called Antiquetera made by, uh, some, uh, what do you call them? Science and technology
guys. That. I've never heard of it, but then again, I don't think I could spell it. Uh, yeah,
it's, uh, based on the Antiquetera device that was, uh, unearthed back in the Greek days
or, uh, unearthed in modern times, but, uh, nobody understood how that mechanism actually
worked. And then it was, uh, sort of a backdrop to, okay, how does this mechanism work and how
did the Greeks figure that out in 300 BC and why was it at the bottom of the
sea? And, uh, it's like the Berggruen Institute, um, that whole gang that are trying to figure
out what intelligence is, um, what is reality and that whole thing. And I love you guys and
I wish you all the best, but everyone's in the world. Wow. What have we created here? Um,
do you mean that in a good way or a way? I mean, your expression of it right now is like
with the Trump administration seems horrible and offshore. And, uh, but underneath there,
there's a certain form of capacity to understand reality, um, play with reality that has never
been better. True. In many ways, we just have to, uh, be really careful what we give away and,
um, hold on to our rights because there are so many people trying to take them away and
they won't give them back. Yeah. Uh, I, I can't really help you with that. Um, once again,
I wish you all the best, um, thanks for hosting a wonderful radio show. Well, thank you for calling
and thanks for listening and, uh, best to everybody over in Norway. Good luck out there. All right.
One of my favorite countries. Thank you very much. All right. Take care. Call from Norway. What do
you think about that? Wow. Uh, 802-321-4225. And again, thank you, Kyle, for all your, all your
efforts here. You're getting a workout tonight, aren't you? Um, all right. Um, any, um, any,
any thoughts from the gallery? Yes, go ahead, uh, Alex. I think it's so nice when we, when we do
these shows, when we take live phone calls from the listeners of the radio show, and it always seems
like we get such positive feedback from people. It's really, it's really heartening. And, and I think,
um, really validates the fact that, you know, we're putting our heart into this every week. And so
we very much appreciate that, that feedback. And, um, you know, I, I think it's really nice to hear
that. Yeah. Thank you. And, you know, especially from around the world, knowing that we're reaching
people from, you know, all different corners and, you know, you're, you're, um, uh, 128 in the
morning and, uh, in Barcelona, I think it's the same time in Norway. So, uh, people staying up late
at night and, uh, people in Asia, you know, it's, it's, uh, uh, a 12 hour difference. So yeah,
we recognize it's always a sacrifice of one sort or another to listen to us.
Um, 802-321-4225 again is our phone number. Uh, I want to read another letter, uh, from a listener
and this, this one is, um, it's more thought, thought provoking. Uh, I've been a long time
listener. Appreciate the work you all do. I wanted to comment on something I've noticed in recent
episodes, especially, uh, about the way TikTok gets discussed. Uh, there's been a recurring tone
of, I don't even know what it is or what's the point of it. I, you know, we say that about
everything to be fair. We do. I, I get that not everyone uses every platform, but this kind of
response often comes across less like genuine confusion and more like performative disengagement,
a way of signaling this isn't for me and I'm okay with not knowing. Yeah, not, uh, not completely
wrong there. Uh, I say this not as a defense of TikTok itself, which like all social media has
legitimate issues. Uh, but as a reminder that new platforms are often misunderstood in their early
days, uh, especially when associated with a younger generation to give an example in the 1980s, you
were probably the ones excited about BBSs or pirate radio or early hacking culture. While your parents
might've looked at it and said, uh, I don't get why you'd spend all day on a computer talking to
strangers. Sound familiar? TikTok is just a new version of that pattern, a platform where people form
communities experiment with media and shape culture, dismissing it outright kind of mirrors
the very generational disconnect. A lot of you fought against back then. Appreciate your time.
Thanks again for the show from Kaylee and thank you Kaylee for that, uh, that very thought provoking
letter and you raised some very, very good points. Um, and I have to say, you know, there, there is a good
element of truth in what you say. Uh, again, you know, I, I think we tend to be critical of just about
everything we come across. Um, and sometimes there is a difference. Yeah, it's, it's generational.
Certainly it is generational. Uh, but you can say something is better than something else. And I think
there are some elements of today's culture that are definitely not as good as they were in the past.
I'm talking about things like, um, uh, attention span, being able to focus on something for a longer
period of time than say, uh, you know, a 10 second clip. Yeah. I know there were, there were, there
were, um, uh, criticisms years ago about attention spans of kids back then it's moving in a particular
direction, but I don't want to not be able to hold something up in comparison. Yes, I agree. We need to
be better versed and there should be at least one person on the show that is better versed at that
particular, um, uh, platform, that way of doing things. I'd like to know more about it. And there's
certainly a lot you can say about, um, a more traditional, uh, social media, uh, Twitter,
Facebook, whatnot, uh, that certainly deserves a lot of criticism from all generations. Um, I think,
you know, let's keep the conversation going and, um, and, and, and compare experiences and not dismiss
anything out of hand. Yeah. I see parallels to music, you know, the same thing's been happening
for, for a century with music every decade. That's not the same thing. The music of today is just not
the same as the music of yesterday. It's not as good. It's not as, as thought out. And, uh, in the
end you wind up comparing it all equally and learning something from, from every generation. Uh, Rob,
go ahead. Yeah. Um, TikTok is an interesting case. I, I used it for a few years. I was on there.
Um, I posted things, I consumed things. Um, after, you know, after a while I ended up getting rid of
mine, um, just because it wasn't about the format of the social medium. It was about, uh, who's running
it. It was about the, you know, it's run by the Chinese government. It, uh, it had a lot to answer
for in regard as regards to manipulative algorithms and, uh, you know, just the, just the, the, a lot
of basic things about the way it worked, but I'm not against like short video clips being thrown
around. But what I do think is that it's an example of, I think, yeah, we should be open to the new
tools that come up. We should be, um, looking to the things around us and how can we use them, um, for
our own edification, amusement, uh, or to improve the world in some way. And TikTok is one of them.
It's one in a long line. Um, there were, there were things before it, there will be things after it.
And I think it does behoove us to be open to these things while also kind of being,
kind of taking an examining, an examining attitude toward the place of them in our lives and in our
daily information spheres. And, uh, so yeah, use TikTok if it works for you, use TikTok if it's fun
for you. Um, but always be questioning what's going on and why it's there being fun for you. Um,
you could, you could, uh, question the place of TikTok in your life. You could question the place
of social, uh, social media that is centralized and commercialized in your life where the algorithms
exist to sell you things and otherwise extract money from you. And, uh, you can maybe, you know,
just take, just take a, a, a more critical viewpoint toward all of this rather than just saying,
Hey, here's the thing I'm going to be on it. I'm going to invest so much of myself in it, so much of
my, um, entertainment, so much of my, you know, commercial life, uh, make a career on it or, or
whatever. It's, uh, it's just all part of this, this general mishmash of stuff out there.
Absolutely. And I don't think saying I have spent some time with this. I don't entirely
understand why people enjoy it as much as they do, but I tried it and it gave me a headache
is not being performative. I think that's owning who you happen to be. And I don't think that's
a bad thing. And if you can connect, like I could give you a 20 minute spiel about why
I don't choose to interact with that particular social network, but I can condense it down very
quickly to, it gave me a headache and it's not for me. And again, I mean, I didn't signal
it's not for me. I said those exact words and I'm saying them again, but I, you know,
I don't think this is us being performatively curmudgeonly. I think there are different reasons
that several of us have come to a conclusion about this particular platform.
Well, okay. Gila, you tried it. Um, I confess I have not tried it. I don't know if the rest
of us have tried it or have just simply, um, uh, written in the wake of your comments and
said, yeah, you know, it doesn't sound like fun. Uh, it's a question for me of time, you
know, being able to try all these different platforms is, is it's just more time than I
have, but I would like to be part of that. I would like for the show, uh, to have a presence
on something like TikTok. Um, but, um, um, I don't know anybody who's involved that, um,
really has the desire or the knowledge to, to put that together. Um, that's a serious confession.
It's, it's, there are so many platforms. There are just so many things. So that's not surprising.
It shouldn't be surprising. It shouldn't, it shouldn't, um, uh, be point to any particular
ideology on our part, other than we're very busy and we're kind of overwhelmed, but I'll,
I'll, I'll say right now, if we were on TikTok, it would probably do us some good, but I have
no clue how to do that. And I have no time to do that. So if somebody wants to do that,
I'd love to hear it. And I'm not seeing anybody jumping up volunteering for us. And I didn't expect
to, I didn't expect to, we need more people involved. Um, and, uh, then we won't sound
commercially or overly dismissive. I don't think we were though. I think we're just being as honest
as we can. And we certainly have criticized other platforms a lot, you know, a lot of older
platforms that said, vinyl is better than CDs. And I won't back down from that. Yeah. I disagree.
Really? Okay. What are you, what are you, uh, those little, uh, uh, uh, the things that came before
vinyl. That's the only thing I can figure. No, I I'm, I'm a CD person. I give me some digital audio,
give me some pulse code modulations that I can, uh, rip and compress and do what I like with.
But Alex, Rob, you think you're a CD person. You're not a CD person. Trust me. I know you.
No, we'll, we'll, we'll sort this out later. Go ahead, Alex.
Yeah. I mean, why aren't we talking about mini discs anymore? I remember those were,
those were a hell of a lot of fun back in the day too, but go, but back on the, on the subject of
TikTok here, uh, a couple of things to bring up back about five years ago in 2020, I represented
TikTok employees in a lawsuit that we filed against Donald Trump and Wilbur Ross, the secretary of
commerce and their attempts to try to enforce a TikTok ban that would have essentially made it
illegal to pay TikTok employees in the United States. And we actually won that lawsuit and DOJ
had, um, blinked the night before we had an oral argument in the Northern district of California
and agreed that they would interpret the executive order from the president not to reach
the paychecks of U S employees and families that would have been affected by that totally insane
order back in 2020. That was just one of those 2020 things, but that's not to say though, that I
entirely trust the platform either back in January, there was a really interesting article. I actually
remember reading this at the breakfast table at the Chelsea arts club in London and being really kind of
stunned by it. And it was all about the Taiwanese youth's use of TikTok. And if you think obviously
about the, the divisions between Taiwan and China, it was really quite interesting because what they
found was that, um, Taiwanese educators and researchers found that when, when young people and children
were using the app, the TikTok app, that they risked being exposed to content that was seemingly very
innocent looking, like very, very kind of innocuous type of stuff, but that that content that to which
they were exposed actually caused them to look more favorably upon China and, and feel more negative
actually towards Taiwan. And something that a bunch of these educators and researchers believed was a
deliberate strategy from Beijing to subtly alter the algorithms and present information and content that would
change people's focus and perceptions of China and Beijing relative to Taiwan. So something to think about. And I
think that's really the crux of the national security issues that have been at the heart of the, the TikTok
saga and ban and sale and whatnot in the United States.
Before we go to Gila, I just want to give out the phone number one more time. 802-321-4225. It's not the usual
phone number that we use here at WBAI. That's why I know it's, uh, it's not something that people have
memorized. Uh, 802-321-4225. Uh, yes, the number is in Vermont, but that's nothing to panic over.
You'll still get to WBAI here in New York city. So please give us a call. We're only on for a few more minutes.
Go ahead, Gila.
I think the other thing that I was often thinking of, and it was a reason that I was
looking at TikTok cautiously, if not somewhat askance was yes. And the, not just the stuff that was, you know,
national security issues, but I believe I read a study somewhere that said, if you just went into your for you
timeline and it wasn't the people who were specifically following, you were just following
the general zeitgeist of TikTok. I think people were going from makeup tutorials to like really
hardcore right-wing white supremacy type stuff in about 15 videos.
If you weren't reacting to stuff, it just kept feeding you further and further right-wing stuff.
And, you know, when I have interacted with TikTok, which again, I don't do much. I think there are
two accounts I really follow significantly who are both awesome and I enjoy them a lot, but, um,
not enough to create my own content for the site. And in a way I sort of think about it in
the way I've kind of interacted with some other multi-level marketing companies, which is, I'm
okay. Interacting with them in certain ways, but not enough to become a distributor. I'm not buying in,
I'm not offering any of my own time or social capital such as it is, but yeah, I'll wear a jumpsuit.
I have no problem with that.
All right. We have a phone call and good evening. You are on off the hook. Go ahead.
Okay. Hi guys. Uh, first of all, I just want to say I contributed some money yesterday and I,
I gave you folks credit.
Oh, thank you so much.
Thank you. We appreciate that.
A little plug there for people, you know, donate and keep, keep you guys going and keep WBAI going.
Um, first of all, I'm a neo-Luddite, so I'm not a big fan of technology. I have embraced it because
I have to. Um, but I like a balance between, you know, nature and a little bit of technology.
Technology. Um, I'm very concerned about privacy with technology. I think basically it's gone
out the window and there's a whole generation out there who doesn't care about privacy.
Absolutely.
I do. I do. Um, I also want to give a shout out to your caller from Norway because I actually
have family in Norway. I've visited many a time and it's so nice to hear someone with
a Norwegian accent actually calling into your show. You are very global. I gather.
I gather. Uh-huh. Yeah. In fact, there's a, there's a TV program that's coming out right
now, uh, called Long Way Home about a couple of guys who ride motorcycles and they're, they're
in Norway right now. So it's, it's, it's great that we got a call from Norway because, uh,
we were just looking at, at, at Norway on, um, on, on that documentary.
Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a great country, very socialized, you know, socialized medicine
and everything. And they're a lot happier than we are here in the United States.
Well, that's true of a lot of places right now, but, uh, yeah.
I wanted to ask you though, uh, you, you say, um, you take steps to, um, uh, preserve your
privacy. What steps do you take that you might be able to pass on to our listeners?
Oh, I don't, I, well, again, I'm a neo-Luddite, so, um, I don't, I, I'm not on Facebook. I've
never done, um, Instagram. I've never done any of that. Um, um, um, you know, I do, I
have a Yahoo account for emails. Um, I, I like paper. I like reading, you know, uh, paper
dot, you know, magazines, newspapers. I do go online to, to look at news. I don't know how
much of that is being tracked. Um, I know when I do any kind of searching at the end,
I go and I clear out any, any memory of that, you know, whatever you do to clear out your
history. Um, and I don't know if that helps, but you know, I, I, I worry, you know, people
have all this data on me. I mean, I'm in, I'm in a car here, pardon me. I, um, you know,
what's this information they have about us? How come we don't have access to it? Yeah.
All this data is theirs and making money off of it. Exactly.
They have rights to, to, to what information they have on us.
Not only do they invade your privacy, they make money by selling your private information.
That's the disgusting part. I know. And we, we don't even know what information they
had. It could be wrong. That's right. That's absolutely right. Actually, you know, if it
is wrong, that's actually, uh, something in your defense. If you can confuse the system
by putting as much bad data out there as possible, that makes it a lot harder to be tracked.
I, I try to change my, my year of birth, you know, all those things there. Oh yeah.
I'll go to sites that I wouldn't know, you know, but, um, I, I, I try not to do too much
that, you know, would be of any value to anybody. I just go to the basic, you know, places for
information. You, you, you basically, you reject, you reject social networks, uh, and, um, you
are a social person. I take it. I, I, are you a social person?
No, I, I, I am, you know, in, in reality and in the real world and face to face, you
know, um, but when it comes to the internet, I, I'm not social at all.
Face to face. I think a lot of people have forgotten that there's an app called face to
face that you can use. It involves walking up to a person and talking to them.
Wait a minute.
You don't even need, you don't need a phone. You just need a face.
Oh, that's right. You can just go and talk to somebody live. You're saying.
Yes, exactly. Right. Exactly. No monthly fee. Right, right, right, right. And actually
people benefit from it better than technology. You know, the whole, they say it's better for
children being researched by educators. It's better to read to a child from a book, from
a paper book than to read from a tablet or anything. It's still that. And, and mothers are in front
of their phones all the time with their infants and it's not healthy for children, for, for parents
to be in front of their, their devices all the time and not having face to face contact,
as you said, with your child, you know? So anyway, so that, that's my shtick. But, um,
and then I, I am a Neoludite because I think you have to have a balance of both, you know?
Well, never, never apologize for that. Never apologize for being a Neoludite because, uh,
okay.
You're thinking, yes, the important thing. You're, you're thinking about ways to, uh, to be
social and to maintain your privacy and what the technology actually is. If we all did that,
I think we'd be making better, better decisions.
Yeah, I think. And, and the other thing is I, I, I read that it's, I want to control technology.
I don't want control, a technology to control me. Although I think that's becoming harder
and harder, but I can turn my phone off whenever I want. You know, I can, and by the way, my phone
is a 5S, an iPhone 5S. That's how old it is.
Wow. You see, most people buy iPhones, they buy 20 iPhones because they're always buying the
new one. So you stopped at five.
It's still, it's still very good. I mean, I do have a new one that I haven't converted
to, but, um, yeah. So I, I just think we gotta, technology's not as great as they, they want
us to believe. I think there's so much more out there and I'm hoping, you know, with all
that's going on, people are going to have a reality check and say, you know, maybe technology
is not as great as it is. And there's, there are other good things out there in the world
I need to explore. So, um, but thank you for your time. I, you've got a great show.
And again, I, I gave you a plug with my donation and I say to your listeners, please donate
to WBI and, you know, give you guys credit for tonight. It's, it's, I mean, you're a bunch
of nerds, if I may say.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
I know, but thank you so much. And I, everything's a compliment. You do a wonderful job and there's
a real humanness to what you do.
Yeah. We like to think so. We like to be as human as possible, but thank you so much for
the support and for the call and all that. All right. Take care.
Okay. Great. Appreciate what you do. Thank you. Bye-bye.
You know, we should do call-in shows every week. I love talking to the listeners. It's
just so awesome.
Yeah.
We have time for, I think one more 802-321-4225. But yeah, you know if we all thought about
it as much as that caller thinks about technology, we would be doing so much better. Yeah. There
are great things about technology. Absolutely. But I think we get, we get caught up in the,
in the, the, the need to be popular and the need to have the latest thing and not asking
enough questions and not, not breaking things and figuring out how to fix them or make them
better. Rob?
That's certainly a valuable, I think, aspect of the hacker mindset. You're no less a hacker
if you decide that you don't need the latest and most expensive technology to do your thing.
If you, if you decide there are other tools out there for you apart from, you know, the
generally accepted digital lifestyle, then yeah, do your, do your hacking that way.
All right. You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com with your feedback. If you don't get through
tonight, we're on every Wednesday from seven to eight here on WBAI. After that, usually
we do overtime on YouTube on channel 2600, but not tonight because we are taking phone
calls here on WBAI. And I think we have one more phone call to go. Good evening. You are
on off the hook. Go ahead.
Hi guys. Uh, this is Pete from Queens. Uh,
Hey, how you doing?
Yeah. Hey, Emmanuel. Uh, you blamed that first caller from the buzzing, but I'm pretty sure
it's coming from you.
Yeah.
And when I just picked up the phone, it's even louder.
I don't know what's going on. Well, you know, it is raining a little bit. Whenever that happens,
the landlines sometimes have a hum. I don't know how to fix that, but you know, we can hear you.
It's much better than the hum was a few weeks ago. Much better. Speaking of landlines,
is it, I saw a commercial for landlines. I don't know what state it was. Is it possible
still to get new landlines put in, in Queens or in Manhattan?
Oh, sure. Yeah. They, they won't necessarily be from Verizon. Uh, but you know, uh, depends
how you define a landline. If it's, uh, something that, uh, I don't know about copper, but, um,
you know, you could get something from the cable company. Uh, you can probably get files.
Yeah. That I think you'd have to, you'd have to have something existing, I think for that to
work. I don't know if they'll install something new, uh, Rob, do you have info on this?
Um, the last time I was aware of somebody getting a copper actual POTS landline, uh, installed was
an apartment I lived in, uh, I want to say 11, 12 years ago. Uh, one of the people who, uh, who
lived with us actually managed to get it done, but using the building's existing infrastructure to do
it. Oh, Kyle, go ahead. I'd be able to request it as a part of, uh, a package from another provider,
like, uh, a reseller of, of infrastructure, but you could also consider like business and other,
um, types of packages or, or, um, service levels that will provide you specific technologies.
Yeah, definitely give it a try. Don't, don't, uh, take anything we're saying as, uh, you shouldn't
try. Uh, I'd like to know if you're able to succeed because you know, they, uh, this is another
thing that I think today, uh, phone calls aren't as good as phone calls were in the past. And I think
that's, that's provable because they sound awful on cell phones much of the time. Uh, and a landline
sounds good. Okay. Yeah. You have a hum sometimes, but the voice quality, you can talk back and forth at
the same time. Uh, it's, um, you know, it hasn't been matched. Not, not, uh, not for everybody.
Cool. Uh, I had some other like political stuff to talk about, but everything sounds unhinged.
So I'm just going to cut it there. Probably wise, but thank you for your call. All right.
All right. Bye. Take care. Always good to hear from Queens. Always some, uh, some, uh, common sense
that comes from there. Uh, okay. You know what? We are out of time. Uh, boy, that went fast. Uh, we should do
this more often, but we'll do it again in a month and, um, we'll do it next week on off the hook
overtime on YouTube. Uh, and again, you can write to us OTH at 2600.com. That is our email address.
And please, please support WBAI go to buddy.wbai.org and pledge whatever you can afford on a monthly
basis. Keep 99.5 FM commercial free and, um, full of free speech because that is what we need right
now. More than anything. Good night, everyone.
Uh, Peter Oudan.
Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh.
Machines, machines, they keep right on going
Machines, machines, they keep right on going
But I am weak, when I want to go home
I'm too tired to speak, but they won't let me alone
Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
Machines, machines, they keep right on moving
Machines, machines, they keep right on moving
Well I've got to find a place to rest my head
A machine, he smiled at me and said
I'm gonna be all dead
Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
Machines, machines, we made them to serve us
Machines, machines, we built them to serve us
But till the day I'm buried in my grave
Yes, right until that day I know I'm gonna be a slave
A slave, a slave, a slave, a slave
Machines, machines, they keep right on running
Machines, machines, they keep right on running
A slave, a slave, a slave, a slave She runs
A slave, a slave, a slave, a slave, a slave, a slave, a slave, a slave, a slave, a slave, a slave route
Let's go.