The number you have reached is arranged for outgoing calls only.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
One diddle-le-bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood. One diddle-le-bum!
One diddle-le-bum.
One diddle-le-bum.
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening,
joined tonight by Kyle.
Yes, I'm helping.
And out in Signal Land, we have Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
We have Gila.
Good evening.
And we have Alex.
Yes, you do. Good evening.
It's quite a night.
All kinds of fun things are happening.
Some public, some private.
But it's conference season,
so everybody is running around like crazy.
And bear with us,
because we have about 20 seconds to get things together.
And it's a lot to talk about, a lot going on.
Any adventures from you guys, technology-wise,
or just trying to get around?
Alex?
Well, last week we talked about the tornado cache slash Roman storm trial
that was happening in the Southern District of New York.
Oh, yes.
Was there a verdict?
There was a verdict this afternoon.
My goodness.
Wow, what timing.
Okay, well, thank you to everybody in court for waiting for the show
so that we could be the ones to break the news.
That's exactly right.
I can sort of predict from the dour expression on your face
that it's not a good verdict.
Well, I would say it's a mixed bag.
It's very much a mixed bag.
Okay.
There were three counts.
The charges were conspiracy to launder money.
And remember, to give our listeners some of the facts here,
TornadoCash was an open-source, decentralized protocol
that allowed financial privacy on the blockchain.
So you could have transactions that were routed through TornadoCash,
and it provided privacy on an otherwise public ledger.
It was also non-custodial, meaning that they didn't touch the funds themselves.
The funds were routed through these pools,
and the developer was living in the U.S., working through a U.S. corporation,
had venture capital funding from another U.S. corporation.
This was all done out in the public and out in the open.
And then bad guys started using this to launder money.
And then the government brought three charges against the developer of the TornadoCash system.
His name is Roman Storm.
And so the three charges are conspiracy to launder money, conspiracy to violate IEPA,
the International Urgency Economic Powers Act.
That's essentially synonymous with sanctions.
So conspiracy to violate sanctions.
That was the charge that our friend Virgil had to deal with.
And then the third was the unlicensed money transmission,
operation of an unlicensed money transmission business.
And interestingly enough, the jury was deadlocked on the first two charges that I detailed.
So money laundering, no decision, jury hopelessly deadlocked, despite now in charge.
Now in charge is the judge telling them to go back and try to come to some kind of unanimous decision,
try their hardest.
They couldn't come to a decision on the sanctions violation piece either.
But they did find Roman Storm guilty of operating an unlicensed money transmission business.
And that's really quite interesting to me because this seems like, you know,
this is where I think it is so important to just kind of slow down and say,
well, look, there is a lot of legal nuance here.
There's a lot of technical nuance here.
All of this is extraordinarily important.
And if you understand how tornado cash worked, because it was non-custodial,
meaning they didn't touch the funds,
how could they actually operate a money transmission business?
So it seems like if the jury fully understood the legal implications of the non-custodial nature
of the protocol and the software, that it should be a legal impossibility to end up with a conviction.
Do you expect the jury to be able to understand that?
I mean, I can't even repeat that phrase you just said.
I know this is the problem.
This is the problem, I think, generally with jurors and juries and trying to boil down
these extraordinarily difficult and complex topics and concepts that a lot of people
that are native to the crypto ecosystems and native to the open source community
don't necessarily understand themselves.
How do we expect 12 strangers off the streets to understand this stuff?
And very often the government in particular, or at least one side of a case,
doesn't want the brightest bulbs or the sharpest tools in the shed on the jury either.
So a lot of the people that have advanced degrees or some kind of experience with open source
or software or something like that wind up getting struck from the jury on a peremptory charge
because they think they're going to be biased.
One party thinks they're going to be biased in one way or another.
So you end up with people who really have no idea about anything going in there
and they're expected to learn and understand and apply these facts
to really complicated laws and jury instructions.
And so I really think the jury didn't get it, didn't understand the nature of this.
But I do think it bodes well for an appeal.
I very much do.
I think an appeal to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals here should be in order.
But it's also the case because there was no verdict in the other two charges.
The Department of Justice could elect to retry Roman Storm on the money laundering
and the sanctions violation charges because there was no verdict.
There was there's no danger of violating the double jeopardy clause of the Constitution.
I thought if you had a hung jury, you couldn't retry.
Do I have that wrong?
If you had a not guilty verdict, you couldn't retry.
A hung jury is essentially a mistrial and the government can elect to bring the charges again.
I see.
OK.
Wow.
All right.
Well, that's interesting.
Now, the the charge that he was convicted of, what is the maximum penalty of that?
I believe it's five years, a maximum of five years.
OK.
And, you know, it remains to be seen how hard the judge would come down on him for sentencing.
So after the jury read out the conviction, the government tried to have Roman Storm remanded
into custody, claiming that he was a flight risk because he was originally from Kazakhstan
and he had means and and they wanted him in custody.
And the defense obviously opposed that, claiming he already handed in his passport.
He has deep connections to the United States.
And they won on that.
They won that argument.
So he's not in custody pending sentencing, which I think is a good thing.
So I think that may give us some indication of how the court is viewing him.
But ultimately, it's going to be up to the judge.
No sentencing date is set yet.
But it could go up to five years.
If the judge views the amount of money that was laundered through tornado cash as an aggravating
factor, he could be looking at the maximum here of five years.
If she sees this as immutable code over which she didn't have a tremendous amount of control,
except for perhaps over the front end, the kind of the front door that would allow people
access to the code, then I think that she'll come down on the more lenient side.
But again, it's all up to the parties in educating the judge or the jury to understand these very
difficult technical concepts in making those arguments.
Well, the very simple concept that I think I'm able to grasp is that he is not, quote unquote,
the bad guy that was actually laundering money.
Did they ever go after those bad guys?
Well, that's a very good question, right?
I mean, the bad guys, we know who they are.
The bad guys that they cited to repeatedly during the trial are the Lazarus Group.
We know that from kind of hacking cybersecurity circles, of course.
And, you know, Lazarus Group is synonymous with an APT or Advanced Persistent Threat Actor group
from North Korea.
And the Lazarus Group laundered a tremendous amount of funds through tornado cash.
And other threat actor groups did as well.
And any time there was a large breach of, let's say, some kind of cryptocurrency exchange
or a bridge or some kind of massive hack, you would see a spike in funds going through tornado cash.
That was one of the arguments that the government made, not surprisingly.
So they're trying to go after the bad guys.
But really, Emmanuel, what can you do?
You know, this is, again, one of the problems I think that we saw in Virgil's case is that
if you look back at the history of North Korea acting out and being a bad guy,
you can start all the way back in 2014 with the Sony hack and the Sony breach.
Remember that, where they took over and they put the skulls on everybody's computers
and they were really angry about the movie, The Interview, that showed Kim Jong-un being
assassinated.
And so they decided that they were going to breach Sony and make them pay for this.
You know, when I teach cybersecurity law at King's College, I teach it through the lens
of the great hacks, several of which are associated with North Korea.
And we always think about what happened to North Korea.
And I try to teach the students to think about these legal remedies they have.
What happened?
Well, in the breach, in the wake of the Sony hack, after that breach, we supposedly had
somehow done some kind of DDoS attack on the North Korean internet connectivity.
So we, like, shut off their internet connectivity for a couple of days.
Most of that country isn't connected anyway.
And then years later, the Department of Justice unseals some indictments against North Koreans
that are allegedly involved with this particular breach.
That's it.
That and sanctions, of course.
So there's really no remedy that the government has that's effective to deter North Korea from
continuing to engage in this kind of criminal activity.
And instead, they are starting to use, or continuing to use, I should say, as punching bags,
individuals that may have some kind of technical tie to North Korea or have created something that they're using,
or in Virgil's case, having traveled over to North Korea.
And I think that it's not fair for individuals and U.S. citizens and U.S. persons to bear the brunt
of that frustration that they have with these threat actors that are the real bad guys.
The real bad guys are not the programmers and the developers that are innovating in this country.
The real bad guys are the ones that are misusing that technology.
Yeah, it seems pretty unfair that the government gets a consolation prize,
and they get to prosecute somebody because they can't prosecute the people they want to prosecute.
But they seem to miss the question as to whether or not that person deserves to be prosecuted.
I mean, you know, for Tornado Cash, I imagine there are quite a number of people and entities who are not bad guys who have used it.
And I would hope that those entities, at least some of them, are being listed as examples of why this is a good service
and not something that somebody should be locked up for having.
Well, that's a great point.
And in the government's opening statement, they made this great analogy.
This is right at the beginning of the trial.
And I have to say, look, you've got to hand it, give them credit where creditors do.
I thought their opening statement was excellent.
And the lawyer who was representing the Department of Justice made the analogy of, imagine you're chasing a bad guy through an alley.
And it's an action movie, and the camera is going from one angle to another, and it's kind of shaky,
and you're chasing this bad guy, and he's got a black hat and a green hoodie on.
And he's going around these various turns, and all of a sudden, you chase him around a turn,
and he runs into the sea of people that all have black hats and green hoodies on.
And you can no longer tell where he is.
And the government then made the case and said, that's what tornado cash does.
It prevents you from tracking the bad guys any further.
And I thought about this, and I thought, well, how would I handle that analogy?
Because it was really powerful, and it's a great image to paint in the jury's mind about how tornado cash would work.
And I thought to myself and talked with some colleagues and said, you know what?
How I would have handled that would have been to say, in response to the jury,
that image that the government just brought up here about running through these various alleys
and chasing a guy with a black hat and a green hoodie, going through these various turns,
and then he runs into the sea of people, and you can't chase him anymore.
Well, guess what?
That's exactly right.
That's exactly how tornado cash works.
In fact, I would like you to keep that image in your mind throughout the entirety of the legal proceeding that we have,
or the entirety of the trial.
Please keep that in mind, because it's a wonderful analogy.
Couldn't have come up with something better myself.
But what the government didn't tell you is that that sea of people into which the bad guy ran,
those are the legitimate users of tornado cash,
because you cannot hide if only bad guys are using it.
You need a sea of people that are legitimate users.
And if one bad guy misuses it, what's the purpose of this code?
Is it to facilitate money laundering, or is it to facilitate financial privacy?
That's how I would have handled it.
Would have been a lot quicker trial.
It's like, you know, if a cop is chasing a bad guy into a crowd, and the bad guy gets away,
does the cop just arrest somebody he sees in the crowd, you know, as consolation?
Because that's what it sounds like we're being told to accept.
Well, that's a great analogy, too.
That would have been something fun to bring up.
But in terms of what's going to happen here in this country, I think, you know,
as I mentioned briefly last week, the open source community has really got to pay attention
to this particular case, because there's risk now.
There's risk that merely publishing or maintaining or contributing to some kind of open source project,
even if you're not custodying funds, if there's some kind of value or there's some kind of privacy-enhancing technology
that you're creating, if that's then misused by bad guys,
this case is precedent for the prosecution of the coders, of the developers.
That's what's scary.
And I don't know how the Department of Justice can square this type of prosecution
with the administration's aims of making the United States a more crypto-friendly jurisdiction
and a more friendly jurisdiction for business and a more incubator-like jurisdiction for innovation.
You know, and more to the point as well, what about this analogy?
We know that ChatGPT and Perplexity and all these large language models,
these massive AI systems that are just put out there for the world to use,
we know that they're being used and abused continually by bad guys
to do things like generate phishing emails, to generate scam-type messages,
to facilitate all different types of criminal enterprises,
and even to do things like develop malware, analyze source code that may have been breached,
go through, breached documents and data.
Those systems are being misused and abused continually by large-scale numbers of bad guys.
What about them? Why isn't the government breathing down their necks?
What about Gmail? You know, what about Amazon?
There's so many examples in the mainstream where obviously it's being abused by bad guys,
yet they're not held accountable.
So, yeah, it's very interesting questions.
Alex, thanks for covering that story,
and I imagine there'll be more to cover in the future, so that's going to be fun.
Indeed.
Now, speaking of Google, Rob, you posted this story.
It's from Ars Technica.
Google has lost their App Store antitrust appeal,
and they have to make sweeping changes to the Play Store.
That legal dispute began when a company called Epic got tired of paying Google and Apple
a 30% cut of sales.
The ruling was authored by Judge Margaret McKeown,
who affirmed the jury's verdict and dismissed Google's objections.
The record was replete with evidence that Google's anti-competitive conduct entrenched its dominance,
causing the Play Store to benefit from network effects, she wrote.
These remedies and their scope are supported by the record and the nature of the market,
and we uphold them, along with the liability verdict and the entire injunction.
So, it's being referred to as a new era for apps.
Google's running out of legal maneuvers to avoid rewriting the rules for Android apps,
and having lost the appeal, Google appears poised to take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court,
which apparently is what everybody does when they lose.
There's no guarantee that the high court will even hear the case, though,
or rule in Google's favor if it does.
Google's VP of Regulatory Affairs, Leanne Mulholland,
said this decision will significantly harm user safety,
limit choice, and undermine the innovation that has always been central to the Android ecosystem.
Our top priority remains protecting our users and developers,
and ensuring a secure platform as we continue our appeal.
Well, as, you know, one of your users, I'm not really sure how you're protecting me
by shutting others out and taking a cut and acting in an anti-competitive manner.
Let us decide, you know?
Let the end users decide, the consumers.
Any thoughts?
Yeah, absolutely.
I was really interested in this story because, you know, I'm an Android user as well,
and there are other app stores out there, other ways of getting apps onto the thing,
and none of them are easy.
There's a very popular, among a certain type of nerd, app repository called F-Droid,
which is full of open-source apps, free software, no money's changing hands.
And to get this thing going on your phone,
you've got to do more than the average person is going to be comfortable doing.
It is not easy to set up, and that's by design.
And this is now posing the challenge to Google to compete on a more level playing field,
let other app stores' clients basically be posted to the Google App Store
so people can just download it like any other app and then have it working.
And, you know, also allow Google Apps to be basically picked up
and distributed by other app stores.
So, yeah, things are about to get very interesting.
There's potential for, you know, people to get hold of more interesting software,
software, and we're seeing a huge issue right now in specifically the games community,
but also other types of communities because payment processors have been putting the squeeze
on game developing, game distributors like Steam and Itch,
deciding not to allow them to take money, use them, use, you know,
their payment processors to take money for adult games,
games with certain types of adult content.
And that is being felt throughout the software world
and is definitely of interest to people who are now interested in the issue of having choice
as to where and how they get their apps.
So, yeah, this is definitely something to keep an eye on.
It's going to be very interesting to see if Google continues to try to fight this,
take it to the Supreme Court.
And, yeah, it's a big one.
It's a fight that's been going on for a very long time.
It seems like Google is consistently landing on the wrong side of these fights.
Have you noticed that?
Yeah, when you're kind of an 800-pound monopolistic gorilla,
these sorts of challenges are going to be presented to you.
Well, I suggest that we enroll them in a Weight Watchers class
and help them through it so that they come out healthier for all of us.
Another legal story.
Actually, you posted this as well, Rob, also from Ars Technica.
This concerns Meta, a federal jury found on Friday
that Meta violated the California Invasion of Privacy Act.
Meta, of course, being the parent company of Facebook and Instagram.
And Snapchat?
Snapchat? Did I have it all right? Anything else?
No? That's it? Okay.
I'm sure there's more.
The state's wiretap law, by the way,
is what the California Invasion of Privacy Act is.
They collected data from a period tracker app without user consent.
Yeah, that's not cool, guys.
It's not cool.
Plaintiffs in a class action case
proved by a preponderance of evidence
that Meta intentionally eavesdrop on
and or recorded conversations
using an electronic device.
That's according to a verdict form
released in the U.S. District Court
for the Northern District of California.
Plaintiffs also proved
that they had a reasonable expectation of privacy
and that Meta did not have consent
from all parties to eavesdrop on
and or record the conversations.
That's according to the jury.
Now, the lawsuit was filed back in 2021
against Flow Health,
maker of an app for tracking periods,
ovulation, and pregnancy.
Facebook owner Meta, Google,
and app analytics company Flurry
were added as defendants later.
The plaintiffs settled with Flow Health,
Google, and Flurry before the trial,
leaving Meta as the only remaining defendant.
The plaintiff's trial brief said
that Flow allowed Google and Meta
to eavesdrop on users' private in-app communications
between November 2016
and February 2019.
Flow app users had to complete
an onboarding survey
requiring them to select a goal
indicating whether they are pregnant,
want to be pregnant,
or want to track their period,
as well as input other information
about their pregnancy or menstrual cycle.
Flow promised not to disclose this information,
but gave access to Google and Meta
via custom app events, CAEs,
sent through their respective
software development kits,
SDKs,
incorporated in the Flow app.
That's according to the brief.
Each of the defendants
had their own purpose
for collecting and using Flow user data,
the brief said.
Flow uses information
to acquire new app users
through advertising and marketing,
including advertisements
based on Flow app users'
reproductive goals,
i.e. getting pregnant.
Flow also sold access to the CAEs,
sent through SDKs
to other third parties for profit.
Google and Meta separately
used the data they intercepted
for their own commercial purposes,
including to feed their
machine learning algorithms
that power each of their
respective advertising networks.
It's just,
this is so evil.
It really is.
I can hear, you know,
billionaires cackling in the background,
but boy, this,
right ruling.
What do you think, Gila?
So, this obviously lands
a little bit differently with me
than I'm going to assume it does
with the rest of you guys.
Um, I have said this before
on this program.
I will say this again
on this program.
If you feel the need
to track your period,
get yourself a paper calendar
and a red pen.
Do not give away this information.
A fun app that you can log into
through Facebook
is not subject to things like HIPAA.
You want to hang on
to that information.
This is so dangerous,
so scary,
and I'm at a loss for words.
I'm actually so mad about it.
And again,
it's something that we've talked
about previously
or when, you know,
shopping apps track
what you're buying
and then they're like,
oh, you bought this.
You must be expecting a baby.
And right now,
this is not a safe country
to be a pregnant person.
It's just not.
And the more people
who can be aware
and rifling through
the concept of
your potential ability
to conceive,
no,
keep that as close
to the vest
as you possibly can.
And just because
an app has a cute name
and you think
it's going to help you,
it's no.
Like,
I'm frustrated
that this took
four years
to get through.
I, again,
cannot stress enough
that, oh my,
this is terrifying
and terrible.
In other words,
start with terror.
For those who might
be having trouble
following what Gila
is saying
as far as being
in danger,
maybe in New York
you feel safe,
but in a state
like Texas,
a state like Florida,
that kind of information
could certainly
be used against you
if you decide
to make a decision
based on your own body
that you have
every right to do.
Well,
there are people there
who think you don't
have that right
and will come after you
and imprison you
and do all kinds
of horrible things.
And it's beyond
if you make a decision.
If there are things
that your body
decides to do
and you happen
to be
in a state
where it's,
that could be
held against you
in certain places,
it,
it's not great
to give away
your private
health information
in the best
of circumstances.
This is not
the best of circumstances
right now
for people who menstruate.
It's just not.
The other thing
you mentioned
was that this is not
subject to HIPAA
and maybe
could you briefly explain
because people
might think it is,
you know,
if you're entering
your health information
online,
it's just like
you're entering
your health information
online when you
see your doctor.
Why is this not
subject to the same rules?
Because it's,
it's not an official thing.
You don't have to,
you know,
when I sign into
my chart to get
my blood test results,
there are lots
of notifications
and other pieces
that I have to pay
attention to because
it's my doctor's office
and my doctor's office
is subject to that.
Flow Health is just,
hey,
we thought we'll be cute
and make a period tracker.
It's not official
in any way
except,
hey,
it's going to feed
your period information
to Facebook.
Yeah,
communications between
you and your health
provider can be
a protected thing
while communications
between you
and some app
you decide to put
a bunch of info in
do not have
those same protections.
And when it comes
to personal health
information,
in general,
you know,
if you put your
credit card number
into an app
and that leaks out
and someone gets hold
of it and does
terrible things,
you could change
your credit card.
If,
you know,
your email address
gets leaked out
and you don't like that,
you could change
your email address.
You cannot change
biological facts
about yourself
that get into
the hands of people
who are going
to exploit them unfairly.
Go ahead, Alex.
You know,
on a very basic level,
I think this case
is not surprising
at all.
I mean,
it's such a clear-cut
issue of
unauthorized
data harvesting
of sensitive
health information
and it violates
privacy laws.
Therefore,
Meta is liable
for its acts.
But to pick up
on what Gila said,
you know,
it shouldn't have
taken four years
for this thing
to make its way
through the legal system
and finally reach
the stage
at which Meta
was held liable
for this.
But it really
makes you wonder
about the massive
amount of
other privacy
violations
that are not caught,
that are not brought
before the courts
and go completely
unnoticed.
And I would venture
to guess
that this is just
an ongoing thing
that happens
with these massive
platforms that
are using other
SDKs or software
development kits
and then call
whatever this
unauthorized data
harvesting is.
It's some kind
of event
that happens
within the STK
and really what
it's doing
is sharing data
without the user's
authorization.
Let's go back
now to the
2016 election
and are we not
dealing with the
same goddamn thing
as the Cambridge
Analytica scandal
and Facebook
and Meta?
Now it's just
a different name
and it's more
sensitive data.
And what's
fascinating to me
about this
particular case
is that
the initial
lawsuit wasn't
brought against
Meta.
It was brought
against Flow
Medical or Flow
whatever the hell
the software
company is that
created the
application.
And it was
likely only
through the
discovery process
that the
plaintiffs had
then realized
through the
exchanges of
documents with
the defendants
and Flow
that Flow
was sending
the data
over to Meta.
Meta was
harvesting this
information and
using it likely
for advertising
purposes.
And so
therefore the
plaintiffs then
brought the
lawsuit also
against Meta.
So I would
like to think
that this should
show these large
platforms and
show these bigger
companies that are
engaging in
unauthorized data
harvesting that they
will be caught
eventually and that
they cannot hide
any longer in the
shadows that the
discovery process
will unearth their
bad practices no
matter where or
with whom they're
engaging so long as
there's still lawyers
out there who are
willing to bring
these types of
cases to the
courts.
Go ahead,
Gaila.
Alex, I do
have a question.
Is the general
trend toward
arbitration going
to stop this kind
of trial from
going forward?
Definitely.
Absolutely.
I mean, many
times when user
agreements bind
users to some
kind of alternative
dispute resolution
system like
arbitration, like
binding arbitration,
that prevents any
of this information
from reaching the
public.
And a lot of
those agreements,
these cohesive
legal wrapper
agreements that
you're forced to
sign on to
through some kind
of click-through
or something like
that, they also
cause you to
waive your right
to a class
action, to being
part of a class
action or bringing
class action as
well.
Whether you can
actually effectively
waive that
particular right is
a state-by-state
type of analysis
that's based on
certain states'
laws.
But yes, those
types of agreements
can be really
over-burdensome
and lopsided and
contain what I
would consider to
be very
unconscionable
terms that favor
the platforms.
So you're
absolutely right.
And those
arbitration
agreements will,
and those
arbitration
disputes will
cause no light
to be shed on
this.
And that's
exactly what
they would want.
Wow.
You know, it's
incredible to me
that there is
somebody who came
along, founded
this flow company
and said, you
know what, that
would be a good
idea, and it's
not going to
cause any
problems, it's
not going to
invade any
privacy, and
things like this
are happening
every day.
Horrible ideas
you would never
expect to see
the light of
day somehow are
winding up
victimizing so
many individuals.
We just have to
look out for it
and spread the
word whenever we
see something like
that.
Go ahead,
Kayla.
The other
question, and
now I'm
thinking about
this in terms
of Cambridge
Analytica,
this, which
again, took
four years.
Is there
kind of a
steady drum
beat of an
attempt to
sort of
inure us
as a society
to having
sensitive data
and personal
data stolen
and sold?
And, you
know, are we
just supposed
to say, oh
no, okay,
another breach?
You're
describing our
culture today
because there
are so many
things that we
can look at
on a daily
basis that
are shocking
and horrifying
that are also
normal, that we
never would have
accepted even
10 years ago.
And now, and
you know, we
can credit
young people
growing up and
thinking this is
the way things
have always been
and not
questioning it.
That is how
it takes root.
so we have
to continually
remind people
of how things
used to be
and try to
enroll them
in the
positivity
of how those
things used
to be, how
we used to
deal with
privacy and
data and
even technology
and perhaps
get them to
also be enrolled
in that and
not to simply
dismiss it as
old and
outdated because
oftentimes the
technology might
be old and
outdated but the
ideals behind it
are anything but.
Rob?
Yeah, and you
were talking about
the person behind
this app thinking
this must be a
good idea and
the truth of the
data economy now
is that it's the
personal information
that is the
moneymaker.
It is that which
is the impetus
behind the creation
of so many of
the apps out
there.
You know, someone
creates a free
app and the
goal isn't to
make a toy that
people think is
fun.
The goal is I
want to gather a
bunch of data
from people and
sell that data.
What toy can I
make that people
will want to
install and
enjoy and not
pay attention to
how much of
their data I'm
farming them for
now.
And I wasn't in
the room when
this particular
app was made but
so many of these
apps, that is
exactly the
thinking.
And when you
go to an app
store like
Google where it
is part of this
whole data economy
and on the site
run by Google
which is an
advertising and
information brokerage
company that is
probably the best
there is at
making toys people
like and using
that to farm data
from them, this
is the
environment, the
media environment,
the technical
environment that
we are all living
in and it's
important for us
all to really be
aware of how
that's working and
educate our
kids, our
friends, our
parents, everyone.
All right.
Well, speaking of
things that appear
to be normal but
really are not,
here's another
story that Rob
posted to our
list.
You know, Rob,
I'm beginning to
think you only
read Ars Technica
because all these
stories are coming
from Ars Technica.
It's good.
I mean, you know,
they're good stories.
They really are.
But yeah, you
know, read the
Daily News every
now and then.
It's good for you.
Apparently there
are parts of the
Constitution that
have disappeared.
I'm not kidding.
I'm not making
this up.
And this is our
normal today.
Yeah, there was a
deletion on a
website, an
important website
too.
It happened
sometime in the
past few weeks
and Internet
Archive actually
is key in
discovering exactly
when this
happened.
The text was
still on the
site until at
least July 21st.
Deletions were
being discussed
this morning on
Reddit and in
news articles with
people expressing
suspicions based
on which part of
the Constitution
were missing.
The temporarily
deleted sections
of Article 1
consist of about
650 words as
you can see by
looking at
Internet Archive
version in the
past.
Now this included
part of Section
8, all Sections
9 and 10.
One deleted bit
contains authorization
for Congress to
provide and
maintain a Navy
and to call
forth a militia
to execute the
laws of the
Union, suppress
insurrections, and
repel invasions.
Another victim of
the temporary
deletion was the
section on
habeas corpus.
Yeah, it's kind
of fallen out of
favor lately.
The privilege of
the writ of
habeas corpus
shall not be
suspended unless
when in cases
of rebellion
or invasion
the public
safety may
require it, it
says, or
said.
Other deletions
included a
provision allowing
the slave trade
to continue until
1806, I'm sorry,
1808, a
prohibition on
bills of
attainder, which
I don't know
what that is,
and several
provisions detailing
powers denied
to states.
Now, fun fact, the
Constitution can't
be changed by
simply deleting
passages from a
government website.
So, if you're
out there and you
have access to
one, it's not
that easy.
It's not that
much more
difficult,
apparently, but
it's not that
easy.
The error
temporarily made
it more difficult
for people to
look up parts of
the founding
document.
On the other
hand, most
people don't
spend a lot of
time reading the
Constitution, as
is evident around
us.
So, the
attention generated
by the
incident may
result in a
net increase
in constitutional
reading.
So, that might
be a good
thing.
So, the
webpage in
question,
constitution.congress.gov.
I don't know if
that's the
default website to
look up the
Constitution, but
it certainly
sounds like an
important one.
And, basically,
the Library of
Congress, who
rarely speaks,
said this,
it has been
brought to our
attention that
some sections of
Article I are
missing from
the Constitution
annotated
website.
We've learned
that this is
due to a
coding error.
We have been
working to
correct this and
expect it to be
resolved soon.
That coding error
can be found at
1600 Pennsylvania
Avenue.
I can give you
more specific
identity information
on that if you
need help tracking
it down.
You know, I say
this halfway in
jest, but also
I'm super
concerned about
how things
are being
rewritten
Orwellian style.
And, you know,
it's not fair to
blame Orwell all
the time.
Orwell wrote
about this.
He certainly
didn't advocate
it.
But, you know,
just recently the
Smithsonian
deleted or just
removed entire
section on
presidential
impeachment.
I'm sorry,
they didn't
remove the
section on
presidential
impeachment.
They kept
it except for
one president.
Can you guess
who?
Yeah, Donald
Trump had two
impeachments and
they were both
removed from the
Smithsonian.
Now, they say
it's going to
come back, you
know, it's just
being, what's
the word, fixed,
improved.
I don't know
what possible
excuse they have.
But right now
you can see
everybody who
was impeached
except for
Donald Trump
where there was
no mention of
it in the
Smithsonian.
And this is a
physical museum.
So, yeah, when
I heard that
parts of the
Constitution had
gone missing,
I wasn't that
surprised.
And I won't be
that surprised
when it happens
again.
And I think it
will happen
again.
Rob?
Yeah, a huge
hallmark of the
current administration's
effect on the
government's
websites has
been just
slowly, quietly
taking out
information that
they don't like
and hoping people
don't notice.
We've seen that
on historical
sites involving
the LGBTQIA
community.
We've seen that
on purpose so
many times.
Scientific American
magazine mirrored
the recommendations
about vaccination
that were on
CDC.gov before
the current
administration and
the current CDC
decided to stop
talking so much
about vaccines
as a good thing.
And so when
this happened,
you know, of
course it may
have been a
glitch.
Who knows?
It would be a
really silly thing
to do on
purpose because
everyone can
find and get
and compare
copies of the
real Constitution.
But even if
this was a
glitch, it's the
sort of thing
that people are
looking for now
and it's the
sort of thing
that people
notice and
it's the sort
of thing that
we have the
receipts thanks
to like the
Internet Archive
and the people
who have their
eyes open about
this stuff to
call out when
it happens.
But I think it's
also really
important that
everybody keep
their eyes open
and if you see
something is
missing, make a
big noisy fuss.
Absolutely.
And, you know,
the Internet Archive,
I mean, we love
the Internet Archive,
but I didn't
realize that that
was the guarantee
that our democracy
wouldn't vanish is
by comparing old
web pages.
But I guess, you
know, something that
simple and basic,
that's what we need.
Alex?
I mean, I want to
go back to the
point that you
made about Orwell
here and being
unfair to call
everything Orwellian.
I don't think
that's right,
Emmanuel.
You know, I think
it's absolutely
fair to call it
Orwellian.
I think what he
was doing was,
you know, good
old George was
giving us a
warning about
what was to
come and
showing us the
dangers of that.
And this is a
very, this is so
Orwellian.
I mean, this is
literally right out
of the Ministry of
Truth.
The Ministry of
Truth, where
Winston Smith
worked in the
novel, was
responsible for
altering documents
and revising
history to suit
party ideology.
And that's
exactly what we
see being done
here.
And the fact
that bits of
the Constitution
are removed from
the website, I
mean, you can't
make this stuff up
anymore.
It's unbelievable.
It also doesn't
surprise me that it
was Article 1 of
the Constitution,
because Article 1
really primarily
deals with the
legislative branch
and Congress,
and they've
basically been
absent and doing
nothing to keep
this president in
check anyway.
So I guess they
thought, what was
the point?
Well, my point
was, this is
fiction.
1984 and
everything Orwell,
well, I mean, he
wrote some nonfiction
too, but what we're
referring to when we
say Orwellian, we're
referring to bits of
fiction that he has
written.
I'm just saying,
you know, when you
say something is
Stalinist, you know,
you're giving credit
where credit is due.
Stalin killed
millions of people.
So when you say
something is
Stalinist, and,
you know, you're
talking about
rewriting history in
various ways, and
imposing terror,
different than what
Orwell did.
Orwell wrote about
that.
So I'm just saying,
you know, it's kind
of weird to give
both credit for
that.
I see.
Yes.
Anyway, that aside,
we have a couple
more stories to get
to before we launch
into Overtime.
By the way, Overtime
is on at 8 o'clock
on YouTube.
Channel 2600 is
how you find us, or
just go to the link
on top of the web
page on 2600.com.
We'll be talking
about all kinds of
other things that we
don't have time for
this week.
And Overtime, I
believe, will not be
on next week, because
we're just going to be
too busy and crazy and
frantic.
But, yeah, that's a
good thing.
That's fun.
It's always fun.
Now, this is an
interesting story that
is a couple of weeks
old.
But apparently,
Missouri Attorney
General Andrew Bailey has
sent threatening letters
to Google, Microsoft,
OpenAI, and Meta.
It's kind of funny.
Now we have to defend
them after attacking
them and telling
everybody how evil
they are.
Well, there's always
something more evil.
So, yeah, this guy sent
them threatening letters
claiming their AI chatbots
violated Missouri's
consumer protection laws.
The crime was, when asked
to rank presidents on
anti-Semitism, some of
the AIs suggested that
Donald Trump might not
be that great on that
front.
They gave him number
one, maybe, you know,
that's not what they
want.
Yeah, a sitting state
attorney is using the
power of his office to
threaten tech companies
because their AIs
expressed opinions about
Trump that he disagrees
with in the name of
free speech.
This comes from a Tech
Dirt article here.
Now, Bailey claims
this is somehow
deceptive business
practices under
Missouri law because
apparently in Bailey's
world, not ranking
Trump as the least
anti-Semitic president
constitutes fraud.
He, talk about
Orwellian, he also
suggests, contrary to
well, everything, that
this action could lead
these companies to lose
their Section 230
protections, which
isn't really a thing
you can just lose.
It's not just wrong,
according to this
author, it's not just
stupid, it's a
constitutional violation
so blatant it makes
you wonder if Bailey
got his law degree
from a cereal box.
And we better not say
more or he'll be coming
after us.
But yeah, that's
something.
Some of these
attorney generals are
very, very sensitive.
The guy in Texas, for
instance, I don't want to
get into that, but
there are some people
in positions of power
now that are rather
dangerous and rather
I guess
high-strung
and not really
stable.
So let's annoy them
as much as we
possibly can
and see what
happens.
Yeah.
The amazing thing
about this is just
that, you know,
in the general
consciousness,
AI is so powerful
right now and such
this brilliant thing.
And the more you
learn about it, the
more you realize it's
just a lump of code
that is, yeah, it's
there to generate
stuff.
It's not there to
generate truth.
It's just there to
generate stuff.
And just as, you
know, when I type a
certain word on my
phone when I'm
texting somebody and
the, you know, the
keyboard app
substitute the word
ducking for what I
wanted to type,
there's no one I can
sue about that.
But I can also claim
that my phone is
biased against
spicy language.
I'd like to look at
an article from
The Nation about a
month ago, and the
headline is priceless.
Trump's FCC chief
Brendan Carr is
acting more like a
mob enforcer than a
federal regulator.
Yeah, you know, this
is another example of
these people in
positions of power who
are doing dangerous
things.
I'm going to read you
a couple of paragraphs
of this.
When the Federal
Communications Commission
meets on Thursday in
Washington, D.C., this
is, again, a month
old, the agency will
have undergone a
drastic transformation
in just five months.
Once a wonky
telecom regulator that
mostly avoided
politics, the FCC is
now at the leading
edge of President
Donald Trump's
crusade to turn the
federal government
into an instrument of
its own will.
Since January, Trump's
FCC chief, Brendan
Carr, has weaponized
the agency to
intimidate news
organizations and
media companies by
threatening their
broadcast licenses and
launching sham
investigations into
their business
practices and
diversity programs.
Carr is also racing to
rollback FCC regulations,
eliminate consumer
protections, and
unleash further media
consolidation.
And last week, the
Senate confirmed
former GOP
congressional staffer
Olivia Trustee to
the agency, giving
Carr the majority
he needs to forge
full steam ahead with
the MAGA agenda.
Free speech advocates
call Carr's actions a
blatant violation of the
First Amendment and
federal law and an
egregious and
unprecedented abuse of
the agency's power.
A bipartisan group of
former FCC commissioners
recently accused Carr of
turning the agency into
the White House's
personal censor.
In addition to cracking
down on disfavored speech,
the agency has already
begun offering favors like
merger approvals to
media companies in
exchange for their
loyalty to the
president.
Now, keep in mind, this
happened before the
Paramount merger was
approved, after Steve
Colbert was canceled.
So, yeah, acting like a
mob enforcer, the evidence
is pouring in, and it's
scary times that we're
living in right now, but
it's important that we
continue to notice them
and share the
information.
Alex?
This is why we need
checks and balances.
This is why we need
advocacy groups.
This is why we need
states'
attorneys generals, and
why we need private
party litigants to try to
keep these federal
agencies in check when we
have somebody like Trump
in power that's trying to
weaponize these agencies
and use them for his own
political means.
These are very, very
powerful agencies, and
when they exceed their
lawful authority, they
are, in essence, doing
exactly what the Trump
administration says it
would like to end.
They're creating a type of
administrative state by
abusing these powers that
have been devolved to it.
So, I mean, I think we are,
again, going to be relying
on federal district court
judges to uphold the
Constitution and keep these
players in check.
Go ahead, Kyle.
Well, I just wanted to
point out, is it any
wonder that community-based
efforts, things that are
for people instead of the
interests of shareholders
or massive conglomerates
that are consolidating
ever more power that then
can be abused?
Is it any wonder that
there's a turn to the
grassroots, to the people
that, you know, don't
necessarily have individual
vertical power in these
sort of fights between
titans of industry, but
they're the people that
those in industry want to
make money and profit from.
And it warms my heart
when the mainstream, once
again, turns to the
community, turns to people,
turns to activists and
advocates, as Alex pointed
out, for the answers, for
what's right.
And it's always refreshing
to hear people embrace the
idea of protections and
having incubators and
welcoming industry and
whatever new form it takes,
that that comes with a
responsibility, that it's
implied that it's not going
to be a free-for-all.
We've seen the sort of
ill-got gains and the
the results, the
the the debris, shall we
say, the debris pattern of
letting technology just go
in any direction at
whatever cost.
It's especially
important when we're
working in an age of
ever more precise
information about
ourselves, about that we
want to hold close or that
needs to be in
different modes across
the technologies that we
use.
That should make that
responsibility I'm talking
about ever more a
priority.
So I'm I'm heartened
that we're all the
answers.
Well, I gotta say, I
feel pretty good about
our community and
about the people we are
and the people we know,
individuals, those
standing up, freedom of
speech, those sharing
what they learn and
brainstorming and coming
up with better
alternatives and fighting
back.
I salute everybody who
takes part in that and
this is the time where we
will be tested and it's
time where we will
succeed.
It might take some time,
but we will succeed and we
will create amazing
things.
Hey, have a great week,
weekend, whether you're
going to Vegas or to
Holland or to Queens,
you are going to meet
all kinds of amazing
people and don't forget
you're an amazing person
yourself and enjoy the
technology, enjoy the
challenges that lie ahead.
You're not alone and we
will be back next week at
this time with a one hour
program on WBAI.
We will be back in a few
minutes on overtime on
YouTube channel 2600
talking about all kinds of
other things and please
keep listening to WBAI and
support WBAI buddy.wbai.org
or give to WBAI.org.
We rely on your support to
keep going.
It's hugely important.
Have a good night.
We'll be right back.


And here we are on YouTube for another edition of Off the Hook Overtime.
Emmanuel over here. Kyle, did you make it okay?
Yeah, I'm helping.
Okay, yes, you keep saying that.
And Gila and Rob, are you both here?
We are here.
We are.
Okay, Signalland has made it. Alex, you too?
Yeah, I believe I am.
Okay, good, good, good.
And so we're ready to welcome the internet contingency, the YouTube people, to our discussion as well.
Hopefully you listen to the show.
If not, there's a lot you won't know because we've covered a lot of ground.
And sometimes we refer back to that.
So it's more than that you listen to both shows.
Yeah, so good discussion.
A lot of fun stories going on out there and dangerous times.
Absolutely.
We are on YouTube.
We sound good.
Well, let the listeners be the judge of that.
From a fidelity perspective, we sound good.
We're transmitting.
That's all we know.
But, you know, I'm sorry if we seem a little flustered.
We are a little flustered.
We've been running around like crazy.
Kyle, do you want to share what we have?
Because, well, you can't see it because even though it's YouTube, we opt not to use the video part of YouTube.
So you can't see that Kyle is holding up the Hope 16 program that we just got today.
Could you maybe smack it on the table?
Yeah.
See, that's nothing to kid around with.
That's heavy.
That will hurt.
Get with the program.
And we believe in a printed program because, hey, we're a printed magazine.
What was that?
That was I put my soda cup down.
I apologize.
Are you trying to make a soda cup sound like a magazine or a publication?
Because they're different.
That is true.
But it was it was such a good, resounding thunk that I was a little envious.
All right.
Well, every year.
What was that?
What the hell was that?
That was a terrible sound.
Every year we when we do a conference, we have a printed program.
I don't know if anyone has printed programs from the really early ones.
I don't.
So if anyone has one, I'd like to I'd like to see it.
But certainly for the last dozen or so, we've got all the printed programs.
And, you know, people say, well, we do go digital.
In fact, we have an app.
There's going to be an app.
In fact, I'm going to get the details.
It's out there somewhere.
But that particular app is something that works in conjunction with the printed program.
I see people at the conferences.
They always are walking around with the with the booklets and referring to them because,
you know, you don't always want to have your phone out.
And it's good to have something in your hand that you can just open without having to,
you know, connect to something.
And we make it as easy as possible to to figure out.
So, yeah, hope is coming up, not this weekend, the weekend after that in Queens at St.
John's University.
Still time, not much time, but there's still time for you to get involved and to attend all
the details on hope.net.
In fact, we have been hosting this scholarship program, which basically it means that you
can send a student or somebody who otherwise could not afford to go to hope to the conference
so that they can experience it for themselves, something they might not ever be able to do
otherwise.
I want to say ever because I'm sure at some point they can.
But right now they can't.
And you can help make that possible.
You can help help them experience something which I presume you might have experienced
at some point, too, where you hang out for a weekend with a bunch of like minded technical
types or even non technical types.
People just are curious about technology and freedom and democracy and all that things we
talk about at hope conferences.
Uh, and what better way to, um, inspire a young mind, uh, or even an older mind, uh,
with all kinds of alternative ways of thinking or, or finding solutions to things, you know,
uh, you, you, you might be, um, uh, sponsoring the next, I don't want to, I don't want to say
anybody because everybody I would say is somebody that would have been good at some point, but
did something evil.
But, you know, you, this could be the first person to do something truly good and not do
something evil.
Has that ever happened before, Kyle?
I don't know.
It says like, this is like a sub problem.
Well, I don't want to say something, you know, cause no matter who I say, someone's going
to say, why are you picking that person?
Oh, I see.
You'll, they'll, they'll be torn apart just because you mentioned any one specific example.
So, well, we're all examples.
We're all learning.
We're all Steve Wozniak.
Okay.
Everybody loves Steve Wozniak.
So I'll say that, you know, yeah, he's a good guy.
So you could be the next, or you could sponsor the next Steve Wozniak and, and, and think
what that might mean to, uh, uh, not hardly wait to see all the mail we're going
to get about all the evil things Steve Wozniak has done.
No, he's done nothing evil.
I don't think now I'm really going to get it though.
Uh, okay.
But the point is you can be a part of that.
All the info is on hope.net.
Um, we do need more people to attend in order for us to, uh, consider this conference a success
and have another one next year, hopefully, and, and, and make this thing a regular, uh,
a regular event that I think we really need.
I really believe that we need these conferences to keep us sane and to come up with, um, uh,
better ways of doing things, invent new things.
Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's pretty incredible.
Kyle, do you want to, you want to discuss the program at all?
Because, uh, you, um, you were instrumental in it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's tons, there's tons in here.
I'm admiring it just in its, um, in its entirety as a, uh, uh, a full, um, completed thing.
There's just so much to go through.
Everything in here is very, very interesting.
Do you want to give away the color or keep that a secret?
Do you want to give away the, I don't mind.
Why would I care?
You can give away the color.
Well, we've been going through a fair number of pastel colors in the last few events.
And, um, people have noticed that, Kyle.
I mean, that's obvious.
It's been kind of obvious.
Uh-huh.
If you've, if you've been to more than one of the recent Hope conferences.
They know what we're doing.
Yeah, they, they, yeah.
Yeah.
But we, um, we've gone through a lot of different colors and this year we landed on pink.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it was time.
Yeah.
And it looks amazing.
It really looks amazing.
We, we, we went to the printer today and wow, we were blown away.
We, we backed out the door.
That's how good it was.
Uh, and, um.
I couldn't believe we made it.
It was just, uh, an accomplishment.
It really was.
Well, it always is an accomplishment, but it's just, it's great to see things just come
together so smoothly.
And that's true of so, you know, we've been faced with so many hurdles this year, but,
um, I, I, I really see things coming together and I see a spirit that is going to be a beautiful
thing.
And there was so much to put together.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you just, just going through here, I'll, I'll just, I'll just say there's, uh, the
welcome.
There is immediately a, a litany of different talks alphabetized as normal.
Um, the grid is back.
If you like that form, um, we've got that in the center and, um, some other, some guidelines
and references for, um, uh, uh, the code and talks are then continued on after that.
Then, um, uh, shortly, once you get through that, uh, other half or more of the alphabet,
it's 40 pages as a 40 page guide to a conference, you'll see, let's see an ad for the wiki and
performances are listed.
Uh, those will be going, um, in the little theater, there's villages and workshops, all
sorts of, are, uh, a full, like foot four other pages, six.
And then, um, we have a listing of all the different resources, all the attractions there.
Oh, don't give everything away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't want to say, I don't want to say everything.
Um, but lastly, the villages and then our thank yous.
So it's, it is jam packed.
Now, you know, I, I, I mentioned that, um, uh, we still have tickets available, uh, and,
and you can sponsor somebody.
And, um, uh, tomorrow we're pretty much closing that door, uh, so that, uh, we'll hopefully
we'll be able to match all the people who have asked to be sponsored with, um, uh, sponsors,
people who have paid for tickets for somebody like them.
Uh, but there is a third category of tickets for those of you who want to support the conference,
who want to attend, but can't be there in person.
We have the virtual ticket that allows you to see all the talks and also interact with
the speakers, other members of the audience.
You know, it's the next best thing to being there.
Whose slogan was that?
It was the phone company, wasn't it?
Yeah.
Wasn't it AT&T bell system?
The next best thing to be, whatever point is, we're not the phone company.
We, uh, we're the hope conference and, uh, it's, it's, it's going to be awesome.
St. John's university next Friday, or actually a week from Friday, the, um, 15th, 16th and
17th of August, the latest we have ever done this, uh, boy, that's, that's going to be
something.
In fact, the week after that's when school starts again at St. John's.
So we're literally the last ones in there for the summer.
You know, uh, we're trying this.
Maybe, maybe we don't do this next time.
Uh, you let us know, let us know what works and what doesn't, you know, it's, um, uh,
it's all a work in progress, but we need your support, your help.
That's what we got this far.
And, um, and, and, and by having a successful conference, we're able to continue doing things
like have a successful magazine, uh, be able to, um, uh, have discussions like we do on,
on the radio.
I mean, you know, even though that happens, no matter what, it's just, um, you know, we,
um, uh, we were able to, um, um, uh, do so many things and talk about so many things.
Uh, if, if they're going on, if, if they're happening, you know, if, if people are engaged
and enthusiastic, we need that so much.
That's our lifeblood is, uh, it's just the, uh, enthusiasm and, and creativity.
Absolutely.
And sorry, go ahead.
No, we want to hear some from the signal people.
You're, you're so quiet.
Please join us.
Well, I think it's, I think it's just, uh, it's fun that we're doing it this late in the
year.
I think if you want to do, if you want to get some like last bit of, uh, fun in before
the school year starts for you, this is a cool way to do it.
Um, also I'm just, uh, I'm interested because we try different things.
That's a part of what we do.
We try different things.
We could try it different, you know, we could have different lengths of time between them.
We could try it different parts of the year.
We could see what works, what doesn't and keep what works.
That's the hacker spirit.
And you know, it's a hacker event.
This is what we do.
Do you really need me to talk all the time?
I'm typing something.
People have a conversation.
Come on.
Okay.
We're going to talk about you.
So what do you think about when a manual does things like that?
I do want to take this opportunity to say hello to the 49.
Well, it's probably a little less than 49.
Cause at least a couple of us on the panel are here on YouTube right now, but we have
49 people on the stream right now.
Um, a lively chat as per usual.
And just want to say hello to everyone.
And thank you for joining us.
Yeah.
Um, also did, uh, was mentioned here, uh, by our friend Tim in Connecticut that the hope
2024 app on his Android phone has now updated and says hope 16.
There you go.
Yes.
Uh, that's what I was going to mention.
The hope 16 app is available on the, uh, app, um, on, uh, the play store.
That's great.
Uh, that's good to know actually, because we were checking on that and it is, I believe
the same developer of that, uh, scheduling app.
So that is, that is fantastic to hear.
It's a great report.
Um, uh, and that will have, uh, basically, uh, synchronization with, uh, the same printed
program and everything that's on the website, as well as, uh, what is in the, uh, grid and
so on in the printed program.
You guys really can't have a conversation unless I'm constantly butting in.
I do like that.
Our friend, uh, Lou right too, who has remixed our program into, uh, dance tracks in the past,
um, has suggested that somebody sample the slap of that hope program on the desk.
Uh, and, uh, Lou right too, I think, uh, if you, if you had ideas for what to do with
that, we would be interested to see yours.
It was pretty good.
Well, I have a suggestion here.
I mean, uh, overtime is supposed to be not necessarily for us to confabulate amongst each
other, but to have discussions with the listeners.
So perhaps it would be a good time to, for someone to read out that Vermont phone number.
Yeah.
You know, Alex, what I'm trying to do is get the phone line forwarded so I can do just
that.
So maybe you could give me a break so I can actually type these stupid numbers and letters
and symbols so I can make, I can make all these like companies happy and, and log in properly
and forward the phone line.
So it doesn't, you know, go to voicemail someplace.
So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to work for you.
You know, you, you would have been a terrible boy scout, Emmanuel.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Well, while we're waiting for that, I could give our listeners a little look behind the
scenes.
Um, our email address, OTH at 2600.com has been public and out there and written in plain
text on the web for ages and ages and ages.
So as you can imagine, it gets a lot of spam and the fact that it is the address associated
with the podcast feed of off the hook, um, means that it pulls in spam from people who
just spam podcasts saying, let me be a guest on your podcast, or, you know, here, I have
this guest, I'm an agency, I have this guest on your podcast and it's always fun for me
when I see these come in because they scrape the title of the program, um, from what's
on the feed.
And since we have a feed that is, uh, the podcast version of off the hook and it is entitled
off the hook, low bit rate, we get emails saying greetings off the hook, low bit rate,
meet such and such a seasoned criminal defense attorney, blah, blah, blah, with experience who
wants to be on your show.
And it is just something, it is just something, uh, extra amusing to us, uh, when we see this
and, you know, we can immediately tell that this is not somebody who is familiar with the
program.
People who call it a podcast, um, it is not in fact a podcast though it's distributed
that way.
It's a radio show.
Um, people saying, oh, I, I love your, I love your podcast and the things you talk about
and you should have this guest.
It is just entertaining.
And for those like me who can be entertained by spam that comes in and is misdirected and,
uh, misinformed and misapplied, um, that's the best kind of spam is the, just the abject
failures of, uh, of the robots and the people who do this.
Spam fail is one of the best things I think.
And I get a kick out of it when people are like greetings off the hook.
Um, or, and now I have to say, I have some much of the, the spam that comes to the show
filtered so strongly.
I don't see a lot of it, um, which is kind of a bummer, but.
There are also ones like my, my personal email address starts with Rob.
It's Rob at my name.
Um, and so spam that, uh, just uses the username as the names can comes in and says, dear Rob,
but the similar spam bots who send stuff to the OTH address, dear off, we have this thing.
We want to show, we want to sell you dear off.
I mean, that was my favorite character in Beetlejuice.
Yes.
That's the best way though, to like, give yourself, uh, uh, sense that something has
been taken from a, uh, a field that was inputted on a site, just a little, uh, cue that, you
know, where exactly that, that data came in.
I, I had never, never thought of what you were talking about.
The, the way it was, uh, the citation uses, uh, our own language in it.
Um, I think I was understanding that or it brought me the same joy, but subconsciously.
Well, I, I, I strive to bring these things out into the open so they can be more fully
enjoyed with 50 people.
Oh, what a joy.
Well, I could go on and on about all this.
I could read some of these, uh, descriptions.
Um, you can, this would also be a good time up for, sorry, this week, go ahead.
Um, I'm going to keep stepping on you, dude.
Um, this, this is also be a good time for those of us in our YouTube chat.
If they have any questions or comments for us to, uh, let us know those so we could directly
address them while we were waiting to be able to take phone calls.
God, no, I'm sorry.
What a pain in the ass Google has been.
I think they're pissed off at the story we read.
Uh, no, as we mentioned, we use Google voice and I was trying to just basically turn forwarding
on and, uh, it said, check your phone and, you know, and say that this is you because
we don't believe it's you, even though it's you every damn time you do this.
And I checked my phone.
There was nothing there, even though I was connected.
So whatever it didn't.
And then, then I tried to send a message.
It didn't do that.
So I had to just keep trying until it finally worked.
And now I'm at the stage where I can click a button and hopefully it works.
All right.
I'm excited about this button.
Um, I haven't, I haven't clicked it yet.
I'm, I'm, I'm going to wait.
Um, you guys are going to talk to the chat.
Go ahead.
Do that.
I don't want to ruin talking to the chat.
Someone in the chat, just let us know that they just emailed us.
But, uh, you know, we it's, if, if we got to switch over and read email instead of the
chat, like if you, if you have something in the chat that you'd like to contribute, you
know, throw it in the chat, let us all check it out.
Um, I would like to suggest that for the folks in the chat, I'm just kind of curious.
Um, how many of you will be at hope either in person or virtually, um, please feel free
to drop that in the chat and Ooh, maybe we shouldn't like have a little way to, you
know, recognize each other, recognize each other.
Like, Hey, I'm a, I'm a chatter.
We don't want to label everybody is welcome.
So we want everybody to do.
Absolutely.
But you know, um, okay.
We also have a note from rebel who, um, apparently is just completely hamstrung by the phone issue.
Uh, rebel suggests that the volunteer site is confusing.
Okay.
Well, um, I don't know what that means.
Uh, but I also don't know what that means.
I'm just reading, but it sounds like something you should be talking to different people about
because that's not what we're running right now.
Yeah.
There's a lot of, uh, ways to ask questions about it, but essentially it's a way to,
um, get involved.
You're talking about the volunteer site specifically.
You can sign up basically to, um, show up and help in certain roles.
And people have been doing that.
We have, we have more volunteers who've signed up than ever before.
So it'll be, it'll be presenting time slots and wanting you to kind of talk about when you're
going to show up, where you might be, what you might be interested in.
That's all it is.
And if you have questions, volunteer at hope.net, just email and somebody will get back to you.
It can't get any, any simpler than that.
Uh, and, uh, you know, we, we only can do these conferences because of volunteers.
We're all volunteers ourselves.
Nobody gets paid to do any of this.
And, um, some of us even lose money doing this.
So, uh, it's, it's vitally important that we have people who are willing to, uh, um, uh,
share their expertise and, um, and passion about things to make a successful event.
It's worked 15 times before this and, uh, we're hoping it works again.
Yeah.
And the volunteers page on the website, uh, has the email address volunteers at hope.net
and also the information that virtual volunteers will also be needed.
So if you're attending virtually, you can still help out, um, contact volunteers at hope.net
and you can be a virtual volunteer who does things like monitor the streams and the channels
and, uh, help to ensure everything goes off as, as it needs to.
And I think I said volunteer at hope.net instead of volunteers and, uh, but we're one step ahead
because we've made an alias.
So that volunteer forwards to volunteers.
So we're covered.
Very wise.
Fantastic.
Um, hope is in fact going to be dope.
Okay.
Here is the question that was just pushed to the chat and we would like to thank our listener
undead ish for sharing the question in the chat after having emailed it.
Cause again, so much spam.
Okay.
Planning for the eventual collapse of the AI bubble.
Getting ready to start local community slash co-op, small DCs.
When that AI equipment floods the market ideas on whether it may happen or prepping for.
Well, that's a, that's a actually a fascinating idea because of course, when these bubbles pop
and a bunch of, um, equipment ends up, uh, going for cheap secondhand to fulfill corporate debts,
that is something that, you know, definitely check out, uh, your local hacker spaces and
local communities to, uh, see if you can organize, um, I guess, groups who want to keep up, keep
an eye on, obviously, if you're in Silicon Valley or someplace like that, or someplace else that
has some of these big companies around that, uh, might, you know, when, when all the fallout
happens, have to raise some money real quick group by, uh, yeah, you have a group by man.
You just say like, okay, we want this, but that's a great idea.
Yeah.
Surplus of the sorts of machinery for that, uh, sector is, is going to be fascinating.
Sure.
Um, and you know, eventually I'm excited for the flip your secondary market.
I think it's, it's, oh my goodness.
They're just going to be like AI TV, um, and just flip a bunch of it.
Um, thank you undead ish for that question.
Um, we had a question about whether there will be recordings.
If you can't watch live on a virtual ticket.
And the answer is absolutely.
Um, you're in the channel where all the recordings wind up in the end.
So yes, that is, that is very true because the truth of the matter is that unless you
are some kind of, um, Cerberus, I think is the word I'm looking for.
You cannot be at every talk that happens at Hope.
There are so many things going on at the same time between three speaker talks, three speaker
tracks this year.
Yes.
Actually four, because we have the unscheduled track and that's where you can sign up and
give a talk yourself.
So we got four simultaneous speaker tracks, workshops, so many things are happening simultaneously
that there's no physical way to do and see everything.
Recordings are a huge part of Hope.
They will be around.
And if you, you know, have, I don't know, a thousand gazillion hours right now and would
like to go spelunking on the channel, on channel 2600, we have years of stuff, um, playlists
for each conference, playlists for each conference.
Oh boy.
What do you want to relate this question?
Um, you don't have to read everything, you know, I'm just saying you don't have to repeat
everything you see.
This is causing you, I don't know.
I have no idea what you're looking at, but I know this is the problem because I see things
and I, I just sort of say them sometimes chats in general.
People get so sidetracked by that.
Remember when NBC nightly news had the chat going at the same time and John chancellor was
like, it got kept getting lost.
So, uh, yeah, that was a bad week.
Yes.
I'm merely following in the footsteps of John chancellor.
Yeah.
Look it up.
Look up in the archive.
Go waste a lot of time trying to find that.
Um, so we had a question specifically for the man next to me.
Um, did you ever get access to your stolen Twitter account?
I did not because my Twitter account was not stolen.
It was deactivated, deleted, and then somebody else started up a fake one in its place and then
taunted me with, uh, the fact of it and, um, demanded that I try and get access to it.
And the fact of the matter is I didn't care then.
And I still don't.
All that did was, was reinforce your original belief that Twitter was a waste of time and
accessible.
And not only that, but a lot of other people suddenly saw the light when that happened to
you.
So, uh, if that, if the mission was anything other than that, it was an abject failure.
Yeah.
I was on Twitter earlier today.
Um, I'm so sorry.
Is there anything we can do?
How was it?
Uh, I know, uh, because of the whole, uh, tornado cash thing and, uh, and whatnot, but I was
just amazed to see people still banging on about COVID vaccines.
And I was like, what the, are you kidding me?
I, how have we not gone past COVID vaccine nonsense yet?
It was like unbelievable to me that this was in my feed.
Okay.
The way you said that though, leaves one to wonder when you say COVID vaccine nonsense,
are you saying COVID vaccines are nonsense or the whole crazy conversation currently going
on about COVID vaccines is nonsense or the conversation that was happening back in 2020
and 2021 about COVID vaccines?
Was that nonsense?
Please define your terms, Alex.
Well, there's a lot of nonsense with respect to the COVID vaccines, but this was nonsense.
I presume I didn't really read the content of it very much about how bad for your health,
the vaccines were, or, or rather are, I mean, if you're the COVID vaccine, yes, that's true.
But if you're not the COVID vaccine, if you're a human being, then that that's false.
I guess so.
But I mean, I just feel like we've, we've moved on as a society from discussing the COVID vaccines
and on social media and just to see this kind of, well, I say the COVID, I meant the COVID virus.
Did I say, I think we got that too, but the vaccine is technically the virus.
I didn't, so, you know, you were right.
Just, um, you know, you misspoke, I think.
Yeah, I do that a lot, but, um, uh, yeah, it's a lot of things have not advanced on Twitter.
So it was, yeah, it was like being stuck in a time capsule from, you know, 2021 or something
like that.
It was really, it was, it was jarring.
All right.
Well, uh, you know what?
Uh, we should give out the phone number.
Um, we have, uh, pay attention to the phone number because it could change at any moment.
Uh, tonight we are using 802-321.
I don't, I don't have any more.
What, uh, what source do I have?
Four.
Heck.
Four, two.
Two.
Yeah.
Five.
Four plus one.
Okay.
Four, two, two, five.
Yeah, it spells hack.
That's right.
So 802-321-4225 is our phone number.
Uh, you can call us and, uh, operators should be standing by now.
Um, they just, they just got in and, uh, we'll be happy to speak to you for a few minutes,
not for a long time because there's other people that want to get through and it's awfully hot
where we are.
See, that's, that's how quickly it happens.
Uh, we will take that phone call.
And welcome this person by saying, good evening.
You're on off the hook overtime.
Yes, Emmanuel.
Can you hear me good?
I hear you rebel.
And I wonder how you're able to dial so fast because literally that was turned on the
moment before I said the last digit and you are right there.
It's like you are every week.
You have, you know, right there, you know, digital technology.
Now, you know, no more analog electronic switching.
We have digital to, you know, we use a computer terminal.
Yeah.
I'm not sure that had anything to do with it.
I think it's just you being incredibly fast.
Let's see.
So, um, um, um, do you need a, I hope, um, you guys need a walkie person, like a CD radio,
like portable.
I mean, if you need like one of those, like maybe the security people or like people at
the infrared.
No, we're, we're rebel.
Thank you.
But we're, we're covered.
But, um, such equipment would certainly be of interest to other people there.
I know we have a lot of ham radio people that are showing up.
There's all kinds of, of, uh, radio talks.
Uh, so, um, you know, if you want to show something off, by all means, bring it.
Definitely people will take an interest.
Okay.
Um, now I am trying to get the, uh, the, uh, the, um, hope the volunteer thing, but this
angel thing and this API thing, it's just, I don't understand it.
Well, I can't help you with that because that's not the part that I am involved in,
but anybody at volunteers at hope.net will be able to answer you if you have any specific
questions or problems.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
Well, I want to congratulate, uh, um, I want to congratulate, uh, Kyle for, um, you know,
his hard work, you know, going to college and helping out with 2600 and hope.
And, you know, it's just, you know, what in the world are you doing?
Wait a minute, going to college and helping, please explain.
You know, Kyle's a student, I don't know about full-time or part-time, but a student
and, uh, uh, you know, helping out with, with the magazine and help being out with
hope and this Kyle, our Kyle is, is, is, yeah, you're Kyle, the Kyle that likes to talk.
The Kyle that likes to talk.
First of all, he has said the least of anyone tonight.
And second of all, I'm not sure what you mean by he's in college.
He's not in college right now.
I mean, you know, we're all going to be at a college.
Uh, well, I mean, you know, in, in the past, yes.
Uh, but you might as well congratulate me too.
Cause I went to college.
Well, yeah, but you're not in college now.
And neither is he.
Maybe I am.
Oh, I don't know.
Okay.
Maybe you two know something.
I don't know.
Well, if there's a punchline to this, please get to it because, you know, lives are ticking
away here.
Um, let's see.
What else?
Um, uh, okay.
So, of course, I'll be at home and I want to know how like computer networks work.
So that's why I'm going to try and volunteer for the computer network department, I guess.
I'm sure they will be able to explain to you how computers networks work.
Uh, uh, look, one, one thing that we, we take pride in at hope is, um, uh, people are always
willing to explain things and share their knowledge.
It's never a question of, I know this and you don't, I'm better than you.
That's not the kind of thing we welcome at all.
Uh, and, uh, we encourage people to, to avoid that, uh, because, you know, everyone is special
in their own way.
Everyone knows something that somebody else doesn't know.
And, uh, hope is a weekend where we, um, uh, celebrate that and share that, that info.
So that's how you have fun.
Um, well, exactly.
Just like in the nineties, people used to say that they're elite and, you know, you know,
you're not, and, you know, um, but yeah, there's, there's developers there.
There's cybersecurity people there.
There's, you know, just all sorts of like, uh, professional people.
I find people get jobs at hope.
I mean, I, I've overheard people, you know, telling somebody else to give them their resume
and, you know, people have, have, uh, met their future spouses at hope.
People have started careers at hope.
Uh, people have, um, uh, basically embarked on a life of fun and adventure at hope.
It's, it's because of who you meet is because of the conversations you have.
And, you know, we can't predict what's going to happen because it's so unpredictable, but
it's almost always fun and positive.
Uh, and just, you know, a nice interlude from all the crap we have to deal with during the
rest of the year.
Hmm.
I hope there's going to be a computer tower.
Maybe someone should bring a mainframe or a mini computer.
Okay.
So the call is out to bring a mainframe to hope, uh, you know, we couldn't do that in
the hotel, but we, we, well, we couldn't do that at the hotel, but we can do that at a
college campus.
That's the beauty of a college campus is that there's lots of space and lots of smart people
and lots of support and technology that actually works, you know, just in that default
state.
Rob, what do you have?
Yeah.
I mean, in, in terms of, um, in terms of what you were saying rebel about, uh, the people
who were like in the nineties, we're, we're all elite and we have the knowledge and we're
not going to share it with you.
Having been hanging around in the hacker community and the hacker world and going to meetings and
going to conferences since the nineties, um, I can say with complete honesty that the people
who were all uptight about that and elite and concerned about not sharing knowledge and
everything, none of them really stuck around.
Whereas the people who were genuinely curious, but also open and sharing and, uh, ready to
get out there and contribute as well as learn.
Those are the people who stuck around.
Those are the people who made, who made, uh, differences.
Those are the people who made careers and friendships and everything else that can be life-changing
about the hacker world in general.
And, you know, hope and 2600 meetings and stuff in particular, you know, I, I think a
part of that, uh, the, the people you talk about who don't stick around, uh, they say
it's lame, you know, they've grown out of it.
Okay.
You know, um, people do change people to grow.
Uh, you move on to other things.
Um, but what a lot of people who continue to, um, uh, to attend conferences like hope, um,
um, have with them is the realization that new generations are still learning and that
you are in an enviable position where you have knowledge that you can share with them,
uh, and, uh, and, and help steer them onto the, onto the right paths.
So, yeah, uh, you might say that, oh, I already know this stuff.
Well, okay.
That's great.
That means you can teach, you can share with other people, you can keep them from making
mistakes or going down a bad road.
And, um, uh, you know, you can, you can impress upon everyone else, your skills, your uniqueness,
your version of things.
And that is the magic when you're able to learn something and then having learned something,
teach somebody else who then learn something and the process continues.
So the magic never really disappears.
Yeah.
You can say, and we get this in the magazine all the time.
People are like, you know, I already know about this because, you know, I learned about
this 10 years ago.
Okay.
But you know, somebody who wasn't born 10 years ago, didn't know anything about it.
So now they're reading about it, but there's more information.
There's, there's more perspective.
You can add things to that.
Uh, and you know, there are other people that condemn everything.
That is not just suited for them.
That's unfortunate.
But I think more people now realize the importance of passing it on to more and more people and
getting it right.
You know, I'm not wasting a lot of time with, uh, uh, making stupid mistakes and, and, uh,
getting involved in crime and, and, and stuff like that.
You know, that the nineties were, um, uh, pretty much filled with, uh, we had a lot of fun in
the nineties, but you know, a lot of mistakes to a lot of growing.
And, um, you know, I look at the program, I look at what we just, uh,
put out today and it's just, I'm so impressed with how much we have grown as a community.
You know, the, the diversity, the, the, the subject matter that people are tackling the
experience they have.
Look at the bios.
We have pages and pages of people's bios and you just see what accomplished individuals
they are.
It's, it's just a moment to be proud of, of who we all are.
So I hope, um, those of you who come to hope or those of you who participate remotely, you
get that, that you see that and, um, and, and that it means something to you.
Yeah.
There's, there's so much to talk about and the, the sincerity and, uh, multitude of skill
in this is, um, just, just so wild to me.
I, I can't even absorb it all.
Um, are you still there?
Yeah, we're, uh, still, yeah, I'm just thinking of, uh, what else, um, um, um, yeah, so it's
going to be great.
Uh, two weeks, I, I can't wait.
It's, it's always fun, uh, a fun weekend, you know, even though if you don't go to all
the, you know, the talks, you know, there's a few that, you know, I may be interested in,
but, um, you know, it's just, you know, being with, uh, hundreds of other people and, you
know, that, that share same interests and, you know, I guess.
And, and you live in Queens too.
So it's pretty close to where you are.
So that's very convenient.
Yeah.
Basically you ride a bicycle there.
And you should, you should ride a bicycle there.
Right.
Because, uh, you know, if you're going to stay late and like, you know, past 11 o'clock,
you know, the buses don't run that late.
Actually, the buses run all night.
They just don't run as much in the middle of the night as they do in the middle of the
day.
Well, no, actually, I, last year I, I found, you know, that the particular bus that goes
to, you know, where I need to go stops at like 10 o'clock at night.
Well, there's, there's always another bus.
That's one thing I learned because I studied the transit and, uh, it might not be the same
bus.
You might have to take a bus to a different bus if it's two in the morning.
Uh, but unlike other cities, you can get places any, any hour.
Uh, so, uh, that's, that's something not to, uh, not to fear.
And you're going to have food vendors too, right?
You're going to have the same food vendors and.
Yeah, well, we're definitely going to have food vendors, but there's also food around
campus on Union Turnpike.
There's all these, uh, awesome places right there across the street from, from St.
John's, but, uh, 10 minute, um, Uber ride or taxi ride away, uh, from, uh, from campus
here in the biggest Chinatown, I, I think in North America, that's what people say is
biggest one in North America.
Uh, it certainly seems more lively than the one in Manhattan, definitely more lively than
the one in Vancouver or San Francisco.
Um, it's, uh, it's, you know, we, we went out at two in the morning on Sunday night and
there were places open and it was just so, so awesome.
And that's the kind of magic I hope people are able to experience.
Now there's other magic too, you know, there's, there's Manhattan and it's not as close because
obviously we're not in Manhattan, but, uh, save that, save that for the day after or something.
So you don't have to go back and forth too much and, uh, feel frantic.
There's, there's so many things.
New York city is so incredibly huge and Queens, Queens is the future.
I am convinced Queens is the future because it's just growing constantly and it's so diverse
and so different and interesting.
I mean, we like it.
And Rebel grew up there.
Yeah, of course.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Nobody's perfect.
No, I'm saying, you know, if you can produce somebody like Rebel, you must be a burrow with,
uh, uh, with, uh, with, with, with something unique.
Definitely.
Yes.
Um, let's see what else.
Um, this is your last, what else, by the way?
Um, and it expires pretty soon.
Skateparks?
I didn't know that.
What about skateboard?
What?
Wait, I'm reading the chat.
It says Queens has the best skateboard.
Okay.
Please don't read the chat while you're on the phone because as we mentioned, people get
distracted.
I can't verify that, but.
10 seconds.
They might have.
Okay.
Um, um, let me mention that, um, when you, um, I hacker, hacker, what is that thing called?
Uh, the hacker's got talent.
Yes.
That's, that's what I like too.
Yeah.
10 o'clock on Saturday night with Jason Scott.
Once again, that's going to be awesome.
That's worth the price of admission alone.
Mm-hmm.
All right.
Rebel, it's been great talking to you as always.
We will see you at hope and I will probably talk to you next week.
No, we won't because there's no overtime next week.
We're going to be busy driving trucks and doing all kinds of crazy things on, on the
Wednesday before hope as we usually do.
Uh, so we won't have time.
We'll barely have time for the radio.
In fact, I don't think I'm even going to be on the radio.
I think I'll be too busy to be on the radio.
It's going to be you guys.
You guys have to have to, you know, steer the ship.
Can you do that?
We'll, we'll steer the ship next week, but yeah, um, all of you out there on overtime,
this is your last chance before hope to get in touch with us.
If you give us a call once, uh, once we finish with this one at, uh, 802-321-4225, that's
802-321-HACK.
And Rebel is, is, uh, disconnected now.
Uh, next time we communicate with Rebel, it'll be in person.
So think of the excitement of that.
Uh, and, um, and, uh, we are now open 802-321-4225 for another phone call.
So we'll, we'll anxiously wait for that.
We don't have to wait very long.
Uh, shall we take this phone call?
Good evening.
You're on off the hook overtime.
Speak up, please.
Is anybody there?
I think I hear somebody.
Yes.
They sound like a busy signal, but they're not.
Okay.
802-321-4225.
Let's hope it's not a busy signal again.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook overtime.
Go ahead.
You're on off the ship.
Hi.
Hey, what's up?
Did I hear you say that some people are sponsoring tickets for people who can't afford it?
Yes.
Yes.
People are doing that.
It's called the scholarship program.
For people, you know, it's, it's mostly for students, but it's really for anybody who
can't afford the admission.
Uh, they basically, they send us a letter, uh, saying who they are, what they, you know,
what, what, what they, uh, want to do at Hope and, and, and, and we see if we can match
that with somebody else who donates a ticket.
And so far, you know, it's been, it's been really, um, uh, encouraging the number of people
who have, uh, donated tickets.
Now, tomorrow's the deadline.
After that, uh, we really have to start, uh, making sure all the tickets are accounted
for, uh, and, um, we can't accept everybody, but we will try our best.
Do you remember who the person was who told you this?
No.
There's only five of us.
I think it was Rob.
I don't think it was Rob.
I don't remember.
I think it was Gila.
I think it was Alex.
No, no, I, that wasn't me.
I don't remember that at all.
Well, you're very quickly spitting out names.
So I think you're trying to avoid attention.
So I think it's you.
It's like a game of werewolf or something.
Yeah.
I don't even know what that is.
The thing, the thing, the thing about an issue like that is that best, uh, long distance
company is, has so many different factors and so many different, um, you know, sort of
concerns at play that I don't think anyone can just out and out tell you what the best
one would be.
And I don't know that.
I don't, I don't know if there's a website that could do that either.
I think that's like some research that you have to do.
Um, I'm allergic to that kind of, of research.
I thought there was this website that had done that.
Um, I'd like to let people know anyway, um, that there's going to be a town hall on Saturday,
the 23rd of August.
Uh, people can find out more about it by going to, uh, Pacifica Fightback.
And, uh, one of the speakers is going to be Alex Steinberg, who will tell about his Star
Chamber trial that's coming up.
Uh, the, uh, the Pacifica National Board has decided they want to try him for saying things
that are true, uh, and, uh, throw him out.
So, uh, I hope people will pay attention.
Okay.
And where is this?
How do people get more information?
Uh, go to Pacifica Fightback website.
And you'll get, uh, more information.
You sign up to be able to go to the town hall on the 23rd.
Can you tell us what the Pacifica website, uh, Pacifica Fightback website is, the address?
Uh, I think you enter Pacifica Fightback.
Wait, we don't have the URL?
That's kind of important.
I mean, we can type that into Google, I guess, but, um, it might not give you the result you
want.
Uh, I don't know how else to refer to it.
Well, you have to type something in to go to a website, right?
Pacifica Fightback.
.net, .org, .com, you know, this is how the internet speaks.
Oh, dear.
You know what?
We'll try and track it down.
Uh, I'm sure one of the three people, uh, dozing out there in, in, uh, Signal Land can,
I can, no, I'm kidding, uh, can, uh, track that down and figure out what the website is
and hopefully...
.org.
What, okay, can you give the whole thing?
PacificaFightback.org.
There you go.
See, now you know.
Thank you, uh, for that information.
Thank you very much.
Sure, that's one of the public services we perform, and, um, PacificaFightback.org for all
the details on the latest battle that we're in the midst of.
Um, and there were so many battles and so many new battles coming.
It's, um, who needs Game of Thrones?
You know, you have so much here.
All right, 802-321-4225 is our telephone number.
Uh, we look forward to, uh, seeing who else is out there.
Absolutely.
And, uh, just info for those scholarships, uh, tomorrow is the deadline.
You can, uh, go to hope.net slash scholarship.html, or just go to hope.net and click scholarship
for the info on those.
And when we say tomorrow's the deadline, we could mean 12.01 a.m.
or, uh, or 11.59 p.m.
Uh, I'm not in charge of that.
It's basically a bunch of people going through a lot of mail, uh, and, uh, they might get
completely fed up.
Because I think they wanted the deadline to be today.
But I realized we didn't really tell anybody that.
So, uh, maybe, maybe, uh, we'll just stretch as much as we can.
Uh, it's just basically go to the website.
Go to hope.net and, uh, look up the scholarship and you'll get all the details you need.
Just hurry up and write something.
A couple of paragraphs.
Yes, Alex.
Quick point of clarification before we take this caller.
But is tomorrow the deadline to apply for the scholarship or to sponsor the scholarship
or both?
It's really both.
Because, you know, the conference is coming up next week.
And we got to, you know, get our asses in gear as far as all this goes.
People have to make plans if they're going to go to the conference.
So, yeah, let's, let's try to get it all wrapped up tomorrow.
That would be nice.
The tickets are going to stay available for a little while longer.
Uh, you know, if you want to buy a ticket for yourself, uh, whether it's digital or
virtual or, um, in person.
And we do want to encourage people to do that.
Um, because, um, that's how we, uh, we're able to survive is, is, is by, uh, selling tickets
and, and, uh, you know, paying for the, for the venue and all that.
That's, that's hugely important.
We want to continue doing this.
And the response we've seen so far, I mean, look at our program.
Well, you can't look at our program, but you'll see it when you come to the conference.
Uh, it's so filled with people who are enthused about, uh, sharing their knowledge and just
being a part of a great, great, uh, gathering, uh, with, with, with, with so many others.
Do we have another phone call, Kyle?
Yes.
All right.
So we're going to take this phone call and say good evening.
You are on off the hook over time.
Good evening.
Hello.
This is Luray Chu from Washington, D.C., our nation's capital.
I have this Western Electric 2500 in a briefcase running off a 12 volt battery.
I just had to move it out of the bunker out into the yard because the Wi-Fi doesn't reach
down into the bunker, but, oh, well, I did that before I was announced.
Um, how much, how much, uh, how much time do you have before you have to get back into
the bunker?
Soon.
All right.
All right.
How many terrible things happening with our country, of course.
Yes.
Yes.
We all know that.
He should really like just search the term for what he's trying to look for on Wikipedia
before coming here.
I mean, computer networking, he wants to know about computer networks.
Fine.
Look up computer networks on, uh, Wikipedia, Ethernet, everything's Ethernet, right?
Wikipedia, Wikipedia, Wikipedia, what, uh, different ways to pronounce this.
He's talking about the online, the online encyclopedia, Wikipedia, dot org.
Yeah.
He said Wikipedia.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think it was a little different pronunciation.
I mean, that's fine.
I don't mind.
You know, I was always embracing Sysop over Sysop, you know, and Linux over Linux.
I just want to know when different words have different pronunciations.
So that's, that's, that's fine.
But one thing.
Why not Wikipedia?
One thing I, I, I do want to, uh, ask if you want to be, uh, um, completely certain
about, uh, after talking to Rebel for the amount of time we talked to, do we want to
spend this time talking about Rebel?
That's a good question.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, okay.
We'll skip over Rebel to the next caller.
I forgot her name, but she's a nice lady.
Uh-huh.
The best long distance carrier for everybody.
Well, the best solution for somebody, especially a complicated solution like that, it's different
for everybody.
What is it, uh, what is, what the best is for you might be the worst for somebody else.
Just wanted to put that out there, of course.
I just can't believe we're still using the term long distance.
What is long distance?
How do you even define that anymore?
You know, is.
Who cares?
Well, I mean.
When I was a kid, you know, Nassau County to Queens, that was long distance, let alone,
you know, New York to California or New York to London.
Um, but now is there even long distance?
You can, you can basically connect anywhere for nothing.
So I don't even know why people still pay for long distance companies when you can just,
you know, use your phone and FaceTime or whatever other app people use these days.
Um, yeah, you know, it's, um, it boggles the mind.
Uh, well, on to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which I think we, this might
have been brought up last week a bit, but of course they're going away and you know
what?
It's supposedly supposed to be replaced with that insidious group that you might have
heard of called Prager U.
Has anybody here heard of Prager U before?
I don't think I have.
How do you spell that?
I don't know because I first heard about it on NPR.
I would assume, oh yeah, I think in the, I think in the show they actually spelled it
out.
I'm not sure, but I would assume, and hopefully I don't make a huge fool of myself.
It's spelled P-R-E-A-G-E-R followed by a single U.
And I know for sure, no, there's definitely not a university.
I would have put the A before the E, but other than that, I agree.
Uh, okay.
Well, you know, it's, it's not hard to realize that CPB, uh, is, is shutting down because
when you, when you realize what CPB is, Corporations for Public Broadcasting, they distribute the
funds.
So if there are no funds, they don't have anything to do.
So, all right, they're shutting down.
The, the PBS stations still exist.
The NPR stations still exist, except there are, there are some in, um, uh, the more distant
lands that depend on CPB funds more than the big ones that we probably listened to in Washington,
DC and New York city.
Uh, so those stations might be in danger and we should pay attention to that and see, you
know, what, if anything we can do to prevent that from happening, because they're just going
to turn into another religious outlet if, uh, if, if they're not saved and hopefully,
you know, something like CPB can be brought back in the future when sanity comes back.
Well, I'd say in my broadcast, uh, region, uh, market, yes, that's the word I was working
for, market.
I think the air is usually dominated on FM by iHeart music stations.
There's a few, of course, there's a few Christian stations.
Of course, Christian religious stations and nothing of the other, nothing to speak of
the other religions, of course.
Well, uh, well, at least we have WPSW here.
The Pacifica station.
Yes.
Uh, they, they, they play a lot of jazz, uh, but they also play Pacifica programming.
But, you know, one, one good, uh, countering to all the people that are, you know, pushing,
um, um, religious radio onto us, uh, with the mistaken belief that it's, it's not a commercial
product, uh, basically say, yeah, you know what?
I agree with you and I'm going to start a radio station for the Muslim religion.
That shuts them up so fast.
You would not believe it.
And they will certainly, uh, turn their position and be against religious radio from that point.
I, I, I wish that weren't true, but it is.
Oh, I'd like to see someone try.
Try what?
To open a Muslim station or to try and stop one?
Opening a Muslim station.
Well, yeah, I mean, I, I've never heard one, but it would be, you know, if you're going to
have religious radio, at least make it interesting and have some diversity.
Well, if religion is the opioid of society, at least have it in different flavors.
There probably are some markets in this country that have, uh, radio that, that supports like,
like New York city.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You can find them probably even low power.
I know the New York city pirate scene.
It's awesome.
Oh yeah.
I mean, I, I grew up in the Bronx, but I was too young to, uh, realize everything that was
out there.
But I mean, I've heard about it.
I mean, Jewish stations, of course, on the topic of religion, all kinds of different,
uh, uh, ethnic minorities and their music.
There was a Hasidic, um, uh, pirate station in Brooklyn that was on the air for a long time.
And it was, you know, they, they had the, um, obligatory distorted microphone, but it was,
it was so much fun to listen to.
And when they played music, it was really great too.
Uh, but yeah, pirate radio can be so entertaining.
It doesn't have to interfere with existing stations at all.
Right.
You just got to understand what you, what you're doing, of course, you know, uh, at least study
for the amateur radio operator's license.
You can just study for it.
You don't have, uh, the books are out there.
Um, you can just study for it.
You don't need the license.
I've considered, I mean, I've considered doing a pirate station, but at the end of the day,
I'm not, I mean, it's, it's, all right, I start a pirate station and then I decide to
get my ham license and in the big, but what if, what if there's a chance that the FCC comes
by and says, uh, well, we have to take away your ham license.
It's, it's different if you were just doing the state, uh, operating the station and not
having a ham license.
Well, the only thing you have to lose is your, your, uh, antennas, your equipment, which can
be made inexpensively at home.
You can always re-replace that.
But once the feds take your ham license, can you get it back?
Well, you can, I mean, you know, depending on, uh, the appeals process and all that, but
I wouldn't, I wouldn't write too much into the future.
Um, if you, if you want to engage in mischief, engage in mischief.
And, you know, if you, if you feel that, uh, they're, they're clamping down, then you
stop, but don't censor yourself from doing something you want to do because you're afraid
of what might happen.
When in actuality, if you look at the current state of the FCC, I doubt they have the coordination
to track down anything right now.
So, uh, if, if they, if they were onto you, I think you'd have plenty of warning and you
just, you know, quietly stop and it would never be, uh, be attached.
That's, that's my advice.
Uh, and, and don't take it for anything other than my advice.
Uh, but I just seen too many people not experiment and have fun because they're afraid of what might
happen when in actuality that, um, uh, that is probably a very, um, um, uh, low chance of
happening.
You know, there was a pirate radio station, uh, out in Suffolk County in Long Island that
broadcast for years, a broadcast commercial radio, 24 hours a day in the commercial band,
meaning above 92, you know, where supposedly there wasn't any space.
They found space.
They didn't interfere with other stations.
Nobody complained.
Everybody knew about them.
They were on the air for years.
I think the guy just moved.
I think that's the only reason why they went off the air.
So unless, unless you're causing problems, it's very likely you won't even ever make
it onto the radar.
Now, again, there are people who would be horrified to hear me say that and say, of course, you
have to obey the rules.
Well, you know what?
No one else seems to be obeying the rules anymore.
So at this point I, I opt for free expression and having fun and having some interesting experiences.
Well, I'm sure the FCC has bigger fish to fly than people, uh, those little people.
They got politics now.
Ha ha.
They sure do.
They sure do.
And this Brendan Carr, boy, keep an eye on him.
This is, this is bad news on, on, on many levels.
Well, of course, uh, the hum is still here on the phone line and you are a bit low.
So it's been hard for me to hear.
But you're the first person to mention it.
So that's a good thing.
Yeah, I'll try to, I'll try to mention it every time I call in if I remember correctly.
Almost made it through the night.
About, about, uh, I got the, I got the Library of Congress talking book machine, because that's
what it's called, uh, plugged in.
It does work still, no repairs, but you know what?
It has a hum.
What do you know about that?
Wow.
Some of the greatest things have hums.
Hopefully, it's not, hopefully it isn't contagious and that'll be a real bummer.
All right.
We're going to try and squeeze in one more call before we, uh, call it a night.
Thanks, uh, thanks for calling and, uh, good to hear from you.
All right.
Uh, Prager, you.
All right.
Yes.
I, I'm going to look into that.
802-321-4225.
We have time for one more phone call.
Give it a minute or two to come in.
Uh, no repeats, please.
Uh, new callers, um, as in, you haven't called this week.
Uh, 802-321-4225.
Yep.
What's up?
Sorry.
You were.
As you can see, when I stopped talking, confusion reigns.
So please help us.
802-321-4225.
The, the confusion happened because we were looking at a breaking news story that, uh,
all United flights headed for Chicago have been grounded.
Um, it, apparently a technical issue.
There's no details out yet.
The FAA has put a ground stop on all United flights to Chicago right now.
So this is cascading around the country.
How does that work when you're in the air?
Or they just say land now, wherever you are?
No, I think if you're, if you're in the air, there's only so much they can do.
But, um, I mean, I am a little nervous because apparently, um,
the transportation secretary recently announced he wants to, um,
build a nuclear reactor on the moon.
Apparently that is.
That's where the priorities are.
Well, will he be moving there too?
Cause maybe there's some good in this.
That would be nice.
Um, how would that work exactly?
A nuclear reactor?
I mean, I'm, I'm not discounting it.
I mean, maybe that's the safest place for one.
Uh, yeah.
I mean, Duncan Jones made a movie about this some time ago, I think.
But meltdown on the moon, meltdown on the moon.
That's a good name for it.
I really and truly thought you were going to say something about Dunkin' Donuts.
Um, could have been exciting for a moment.
Um, do we have a call?
We had a call.
They hung up.
So 802-321-4225.
One more minute.
And then we're giving up.
Well, we do have a question from, um, our friend, Tim in Connecticut, who asks,
will there be an OTH desk at Hope 16?
And I, well, we don't really have a desk now, but.
An OTH desk?
What would that be?
We'd all be sitting at the desk, not doing a show?
The answer is no.
There will be.
Well, I mean, thanks for deciding for us.
It could have been fun.
I don't know.
I don't even know what an off-the-hook desk is.
Will we have a chair to go with the desk?
I think it's the Emerald Pub.
Oh, yes.
The Emerald Pub.
I mean, we got to go to the Emerald Pub.
And for those who don't know, the, yes, the campus is dry, and we have no problem with
that whatsoever, because that means, you know, no drunk attendees like we had at the hotel.
But we do have a friendly neighborhood dive bar down the block.
The Emerald Pub is next to the two hotels.
And we have hung out there for hours in the past, and we intend to do so again.
In fact, I believe the frack people, when they release their new issue, will be having
a special party down there as well.
So all kinds of fun is planned for the weekend of August 15th through 17th.
Hope 16th.
And we have a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on off-the-hook over time.
Go ahead.
Speak up.
Go ahead.
Hi.
Is that me?
Yes, it's you.
Okay, yes.
I had kind of a general question on the event happening next week.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Uh, this is going to be, you know, I want to attend the event next week.
This will be, like, my first time attending.
But I haven't bought the ticket yet.
Now, is it, do you pay per, like, for, like, a session, for, like, you know, for, like,
speaker?
Or is it just one rate to get in and you can...
It's one rate for the whole weekend.
One rate for the weekend.
Oh, so it's just one rate for the whole weekend.
Yes.
Is that how it goes?
Yeah, and you get all three days, you get access to everything.
Oh, okay, okay.
Okay.
Okay, yeah.
So, yeah, we'll definitely be going there next week.
This will be my first time.
Awesome.
I hope to enjoy it.
Well, make sure you say hi, because we always like to meet new people who are there for
the first time and get their opinions and, you know, help show them around, things like
that.
Oh, okay.
I will do that.
My name is Ray.
I'll definitely do that.
Okay.
Look forward to it.
All right.
Thank you.
Thanks for your call.
Take care.
You know, new people, they're so essential to everything moving forward.
So if you're a new person, just know you're very special to us because if we didn't have
new people, we wouldn't have a future, you know?
And that's why we're trying to make it easy for students, you know, people who have never
been to something like this before and who might not have the funds to get there.
You know, it's something that we didn't really think would work, and it's worked great because
a lot of people in the community are very generous and have the means to be able to send
somebody that they've never met before to an amazing conference that will likely change
their lives.
So thank you to everybody who has participated in that.
You can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com with more questions or thoughts.
I'm sorry to that person calling in, but we did say one phone call, and this is going
to go on all night.
What are you mouthing, Kyle?
It's from out of the country.
It's from out of the country?
Well, they hung up.
Is it still from out of the country?
Yeah.
All right.
We'll pick up from out of the country, but only because you're out of the country.
This is the last one, though.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook over time.
This is the last call.
You're very generous and have the means to be able to call it.
I can hear myself.
Who's there?
Anybody that they've never met before to an amazing conference call.
Let me hear you.
That's you.
Are you out of the country?
No, it's not me.
It's somebody calling in, holding the phone to the speaker.
You can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
You know, anybody could do this.
You can't hear us.
Well, you should be able to hear us.
I thought I heard.
Is anybody there?
How do you know who it is?
They haven't said who they are yet.
I heard him.
Who is this?
It's that.
God damn it.
Okay, you did know.
All right.
Well, I'm sorry it's hard to hear us, but nobody else had trouble hearing us.
But we want to hear you.
That's what this is for.
So what's on your mind?
I'm wondering if you've heard about this new UK law, the child online safety law.
I have heard about that.
I don't know much about it, but I have heard it's kind of controversial.
Yes, it's to protect children from spewing pornography.
Yes, because they've never done that before.
Yeah, and unfortunately, kids are getting around the security by using game faces or something from, you know, characters from games.
Yes, we did talk about that, I think, a couple of weeks ago, that people are using game character faces.
I can't believe they didn't prepare for that, but it's actually working.
And, you know, whoever thought kids could be that smart?
Yeah.
Wow.
So you must be outraged as an adult.
It's annoying.
I got blocked on blue sky trying to view my DMs.
You got blocked on blue sky?
Yeah.
I had to show my ugly face just to go and read my DMs.
There's nothing pornographic in there.
Why are they making you show your face to read DMs on blue sky?
Oh, just to make sure that I look older than, I don't know, 18.
Okay, well, that's kind of disturbing.
I mean, I never had to do that with Twitter, so I don't know why blue sky is implementing something like that.
Well, my other choice was actually to give them a credit card number, and I really didn't want to do that.
No, no.
Well, they just said a credit card number.
It doesn't have to be yours.
I'm sorry, Emmanuel.
I'm having really a lot of problems hearing you.
Yeah, I'm not sure what the problem is.
I'm talking as loud as I feel comfortable talking, but, yeah, I just wanted to know if you can give them any credit card number or it has to be yours.
Well, that I haven't tried.
I haven't tried a credit card generator.
Not that I go to many porn sites just so we got that on the record.
Right, right.
But blue sky is not a porn network, so I don't know why they need all this verification.
I'm going to look into that because I didn't know about that.
And, you know, the latest thing that I find annoying is blue sky is getting all high and mighty about verification, just like Twitter did, except I think it's worse because they say we're not even going to talk to you unless we accept your verification request.
So if you hear nothing, that means you've been rejected.
And, you know, that's that's not very nice to say it like that.
I mean, you know, at least leave the door open.
Yeah.
So anyway, how else are things over in merry old England?
Apart from that, everything's OK, more or less.
All the meetings in England are going very well.
In fact, the last meeting in Manchester, they had small children and a dog turn up.
And we had a dog turn up two months ago.
Wait, you had I thought you said a doctor.
You had a dog turned up?
Yeah, we've had we're starting to have dogs turning up at meetings.
It's great.
Are dogs coming on their own or are they being brought by people?
Unfortunately, they're being brought by the owners.
OK.
All right.
That makes sense.
Just just to make that clear.
I mean, if dogs turn up on the I mean, who knows when you're on the Internet, it could be a dog, you know.
So if they stop turning up.
That's true.
Find out the latest exploits.
Absolutely true.
Yes.
Well, you know, it's it's great to hear the meetings are flourishing over there.
If you could look through our listing, tell us if we're missing any because, you know, sometimes we don't always catch up on the latest British or Irish or Scottish or Welsh meeting that's happening.
So and you seem to know everything that's going on over there.
As far as I know, the meeting page on the Web site is up to date.
OK.
Well, then we need more meetings.
We need more cities to have meetings.
About the Wales one.
Uh huh.
I was talking to a young girl who said at Christmas last year that she would set up the Welsh one.
And I've just got back in touch with her and hopefully they'll be sorting something out.
Awesome.
So good to hear.
OK, listen, I'm going to clear down the line because I can't hear you, Emmanuel.
I can't hear anyone else.
Yeah, I'm sorry for that.
I'm just getting frustrated.
The state of telecommunications.
He said, well, Alex is going to try to say something to you.
And no doubt this will end in frustration.
But let's give it a shot.
All right.
OK.
Zap, can you hear me?
How am I concerned about Emmanuel?
Better than you hear Emmanuel?
No, about the same.
OK.
I see.
He really wanted you to say yes.
Yeah, I know.
OK, what about now?
Is this any better?
For God's sake, Alex.
It's not any better.
Yeah, he's basically swallowing the microphone.
Yeah, the volume on both of you guys is about the same, so it's not very good.
I'll have to re-listen to the stream to find out what you guys were saying.
Yeah, we do that too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, one good thing is I can't hear a hum.
Oh, see?
That's something.
He doesn't hear a hum.
So some people hear hums, and some people don't hear us very well.
I think the hum is gone.
Wait, Alex, did you actually have something to say?
Did you just want to be told you sounded better than me?
That was exactly it, yeah.
This is what I have to deal with.
OK.
Very competitive over here.
Zap, it's so good to hear a voice of sanity every now and then.
Yeah, well, I only phone in when I've got something to share, something important.
I'm not like Rebel, phoning up every week.
All right, I'll leave that one be, but thank you.
Just on a side note, Alex, when you're back in London, can you get in touch?
I absolutely will, Zap.
Yeah, I was just thinking that too, and I should be over there in September.
So I will.
OK.
I might have some legal problems, and I need some advice.
Uh-oh.
OK.
Well, you know, you can always reach out to me.
OK.
You got it.
But I'll see you.
I'll see you.
I'm happy to speak with you then, of course.
All right.
Thanks.
I appreciate that.
You got it.
You got it.
All right, Zap.
You take care.
We'll talk to you again soon.
Yeah, and good luck with Hope.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I don't know if I'll be getting a virtual ticket.
Money's a bit tight, but I'll see what I can do.
OK.
If anybody out there wants to donate a virtual ticket to Zap, please email us, and we'll make
sure that happens.
Because he's one of the people.
I'm very kind of them, but I'd rather they went to somebody that's never been to a Hope.
I've been to real ones, and I've been to a virtual one.
Let it go to someone that hasn't had it before.
All right.
Well, if anyone is insistent on that email us.
But otherwise, yes, please give it to anyone who is asking or deserves one.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
All right.
Thanks, Zap.
Take care.
All right.
Take care.
Speak to you soon.
Take care.
Bye.
Good night.
And that's going to do it for us.
No more phone calls.
Oh, yes.
Gila, I'm not saying take another phone call.
No, I'm not saying take another phone call.
And this actually has nothing to do with the chat.
But I did discover something amazing.
Do you know what today is?
It's Wednesday.
It is Wednesday.
August 6th.
It's the anniversary of Hiroshima.
You can't be that happy about that.
I'm not that happy about that.
It's the 80th anniversary.
It's something to think about.
Another thing that August 6th is, is the birthday of the departed Kevin Mitnick.
Oh, wow.
I didn't know that.
And because August 6th was Kevin Mitnick's birthday, as of last year, August 6th is National
Social Engineering Day.
Oh, wow.
Wait, who got to decree that?
An organization called Know Before set it up last year.
So this is the second annual National Social Engineering Day.
I apologize for not bringing that up before we were, you know, less than three hours left
in the day.
But make a note for yourself and your calendar next, August 6th, social engineer the shit
out of everyone.
First of all, Kevin was on the West Coast.
So add another three hours.
So it's actually six hours to go.
Second of all, let me tell you a weird story.
Yesterday, I wore a T-shirt that happened to be for a particular cafe.
The only reason I did it was because it came up in rotation.
I have like a hundred T-shirts and it just came up.
And that was the day I went to that cafe and the owner of the cafe was there and he saw
my shirt.
It's like, oh my God, you're wearing the shirt for the cafe.
It's like, I didn't plan this.
It just happened.
These are numbers.
Today, the shirt for Kevin, Free Kevin, the yellow shirt that says Free Kevin on the back
came up in rotation.
I almost put it on, but decided, you know what?
I'm not going to put it on.
I'm going to save it for hope and wear it one day during the hope conference.
But it's just amazing that it came up today.
And I did not know that today was his birthday.
Yeah.
Wow.
Remarkable.
I miss him.
I miss him a lot.
All right, folks.
OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
And no overtime next week, two weeks.
We'll be checking our sanity, I guess, see how we did, see if we, you know, still want
to keep doing this in the future.
And I hope to see many of you there.
And you can continue listening to the radio show.
You guys will be on next week.
I will not be.
Kyle will not be.
We'll be driving heavy vehicles and coordinating and all that kind of thing.
But hope to see a bunch of you at St. John's.
Absolutely.
We will see you there.
And also, any of you listening, if you see us at Hope, say hi.
I think I speak for everyone here.
We actually dig when people do that.
We're there to hang out with people.
We're there to meet people.
We're there to chat with people.
And that includes you.
All right.
Good night, everyone.