I'll get it.
You are listening to radio station WBAI 99.5 FM, New York.
The evening is Wednesday.
The time is 7 p.m.
The program is Off the Hook.
The phone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bum Diddly Bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum Diddly Bum!
Bum Diddly Bum
Off the Hook.
Rob T. Firefly here with you on this Wednesday evening, and I am joined here by Gila.
Hello, good evening.
Hello, and out in Signal Land, we have Alex.
You do? Good evening.
Whoa, that was loud.
Not on your end, Alex, on mine, because I am fiddling terribly with a board here.
All right, that's better.
That's a lot better.
And also out in Signal Land, we professional radio makers here have a couple of wonderful guests.
We have Jason Scott.
Salutations.
Am I too loud?
Nope.
You're okay, but my board is just all over the place.
This is the sort of thing that, you know, one should really get sorted out before a radio broadcast.
We have another guest.
We have Kusanagi with us.
Hi.
Howdy, howdy.
Hello.
Now, it is August.
It is mid-August.
It is conference season here in the hacker world.
And things are just happening all over the place.
DEFCON just happened in Vegas.
Uh, there was one called Why in the Netherlands?
I don't know.
There was one.
Let's try that again.
There was a conference called Why in the Netherlands?
Why not in the Netherlands?
I'm trying here.
I really am.
Okay.
But yes, it is conference season.
I thought you were just aiming for, like, it's the dog days of summer.
Because it definitely is.
Um, and, yes, have, I know I haven't been traveling to any conferences.
But anyone in Signal Land?
Uh, let's see.
Actually, I did something conference adjacent, which is, there's this interesting little outdoor
movie theater in New Jersey where they take over a farmer's market and show a film.
And I shot a DEFCON documentary, you know, a little more than 10 years ago.
And they had me come out.
Uh, I think they like the fact that I don't charge to, uh, license the movie.
And they gave me some candy.
And it was just a really good time out in the summer watching DEFCON with an audience
of, like, 15 people who had no idea what hacker cons were.
I think, and that's, that's, you know, that's always the great thing is, what are hacker
cons when you say it to people?
And I'm like, well, here's this two-hour movie, um, which is maybe not the best way to ramp
people up into it.
But that was how I spent conference season so far.
And of course, I have a few appointments later this weekend.
Later this weekend.
Later this weekend.
What's happening later this weekend, folks?
Oh, well, I, I know I'm going to St. John's University because I was invited to come speak and play around at, uh, the Hackers on Planet Earth conference.
And, uh, I am rapid, you people are rapidly turning me into a mascot, which I think is very funny.
I keep getting like, could you show up to this part?
Could you do this part?
And I always like to dress up for the occasion and, uh, I have to get more suits.
That's why we pick you for the part because you dress up with, in the suits and you're
very flashy, very eye-catching and, you know, mascots should be flashy, eye-catching, maybe a little sparkly.
A little sparkly, little thing.
That's what people think of when they think of Queens, which by the way, my family's from,
so it's nice to return home for a bit.
It's also where Gila and I are.
It certainly is.
And your ancestral homeland will be happy to have you back.
Absolutely.
And, uh, so there's, there's a lot going on this week in the hacker world, the, the technical world.
Uh, I want to talk about a couple of, um, a couple of, uh, things that have happened.
One of them is this, uh, story that, uh, appeared on Tom's Hardware.
Who remembers AOL?
Oh, I knew, I knew.
Oh, yeah, I know this story, unfortunately.
This one broke my heart a little bit.
Well, AOL has, uh, has decided to sunset its dial-up internet service in September, 34 years after it started.
Um, AOL Shield browser and the AOL dialer software will be shuttered on the same day.
Now, AOL holds a certain place in the history of, I think, the general, uh, human-populated internet, um, kind of fitting that they're ending it in September, um, which is, which is apparently no longer eternal.
I don't think September is as eternal as it used to be, but this, I'm reasonably willing
to say, feels like a generational loss, um, for people who are roughly of my age bracket.
That, that does include you.
And, no, the, oh my goodness, I remember going off to college and having to search for the
dial-up numbers in the new city where I was living and trying to figure out, you know,
what would be a long distance call based on the area codes and say what you will about
AOL and God knows there's a lot to be said, but I think having it be that first little
toehold that enabled so many people to at least get started in all kinds of different things
and, you know, a little launch pad.
And, and I know it's not the end of AOL per se, right?
But the end of the dial-up service.
And, you know, no one, the modems don't sing that little song anymore.
I will not favor you with it right now, though.
Alex, what's up?
Well, I, I, uh, I have to say, I, I don't, I didn't have that experience with AOL.
I mean, I'm sad to see that they're shuttering the dial-up service.
It's certainly the end of an era, but to my mind, I was always just way too cool to use
AOL back in the day.
I mean, AOL, Frank, sorry, Gila, but it was for what we used to call lamers back in the
90s.
I will gladly accept that, that.
Yeah.
Lamers.
And that's definitely with a Z at the end of it, because that's, that's what we did on
BBS's way back in the day.
And so, I mean, my, my internet access, uh, or dial-up access was, was really limited
to BBS's at first, I guess, starting at around 1993, 1994.
Um, and then I used to, can freak phone calls to various full, um, internet service providers
either, you know, located across the country and use some kind of illicit means in order
to make those telephone calls and avoid the toll charges, um, or local internet service
providers like LI.net way back in the day on, you remember that, Rob?
I could, I could tell you a story about them.
Yeah.
Oh, I would like to hear the story about LI.net since we're talking about dial-up internet.
I mean, I, I thought they had a pretty interesting service.
I had a, I had a way of, of creating a whole bunch of fake accounts on them and never getting
billed way back in the day.
Um, but I could never bring myself down to the level of using an AOL account because it
was too simple.
The graphical user interface was too clean.
Um, and it was like the, the simple way of accessing the internet.
I'm not, I'm, I'm looking back at it now, you know, and it was a very prejudicial attitude
and very condescending attitude to take towards AOL users.
But, you know, that's what we did back in the day.
That was the general attitude too, among, uh, sort of, uh, internet nerds of the time.
AOL represented the general populace having access to this world that had only, uh, hitherto
been populated by fellow nerds.
You're darn Skippy.
And that's the thing because we, my, my dad was very techie.
He was an early adopter of a lot of things.
And we had, you know, dial up internet at probe.net, which was a local ISP by us.
And he created a domain for us.
And I had, I tried to, you know, set up my own webpage and it was frustrating to say the
least.
So I kind of huffed away from that kind of experience.
And then when AOL became a thing, that was great.
Plus, you know, I, I don't think the appeal of instant messenger can be understated or could
be overstated really.
So I, of course, got pinged a lot because of my BBS history about this dial up change.
And, um, in fact, a couple of years ago I did a experiment or I should say research to
go, how many dial up BBSs are left?
And the answer at the time was like 23 and the, uh, and all of them are like, you know,
the, the, the remnant while all the main business is being done through its internet connection.
But when this dial up announcement about AOL disappeared or came onto the, the, the scene,
somebody pointed out that as part of the 2020 census, they asked about household connectivity.
So in the 2020 census, 160,000 people were on dial up or some form of dial up in the United
States.
That was the remaining amount still, still primarily communicating with the internet via,
via modems.
And of course you're not allowed by law to discuss AOL without discussing AOL CDs.
And, um, a few years ago at the archive, at the internet archive where I work, I put out
the word that I wanted as many unique AOL CDs as possible.
And I got a lot of pushback, which is great.
Anger is a feeling, good to get feelings.
And I pointed out that from, you know, basically the mid 1990s, 94 to at least 99, AOL was half
of all CDs produced in the United States.
So historically they are important.
And I had, I think a couple dozen, maybe a hundred some odd different AOL CDs because
thank, thank goodness they each had unique part numbers when they made shifts.
And then like, and you know, like I said, people had their responses, but like three or four
later, three or four years later, I had a contact from a woman who was like, do you want all
of them?
And I said, yes, I would like all of them.
Turned out she was the lawyer for Time Warner and AOL.
And her job was to be given each new variation of a CD and do a legal vetting.
You know, does the graphics look like they infringed?
Does the content infringe?
And she just kept them all.
So it's, it's 6,500 variations that came out over the years.
And I've got some weird ones, as you can imagine, by the second half of AOL CD arc, people know
what they're getting in the mail.
So the second half is nothing, nothing, but something landing on your door going, I'm not
an AOL CD.
You should open me up.
I might be important or literally a case made of clay, like tile clay.
So when you picked it up, you said, oh no, I sure have some important thing I'm getting
in the mail.
And no, it's an AOL CD and a clay case.
And it was like that.
It's like, I think I've got a book in it maybe sometime in the future because it's like
the artistic variation.
I would read that.
Yeah.
It'd be a great book.
I'll do it for Tashin and it will be $7,500 and it will come signed by Steve case and
everybody will, uh, everybody will buy 19 of them.
There is, there is one AOL CD.
There is one AOL CD that I think I still have in a box somewhere.
And it is one that came attached to the front of an issue of mad magazine.
And when you put out this call, um, I took a look to see if that one was already out there
and I think it's already up on the archive, but mad magazine had done some sort of promotional
thing where not only did they attach the CD that had some musical tracks of theirs and
a couple of pieces of software, um, that I think ran on DOS.
Um, but also there was the signing up for AOL kit and, uh, it, it is wild and it's got
Aphrodite Newman's face as the, uh, as the disc art.
Naturally with his nose in the hole, I'm assuming.
I think so.
But, um.
Did I tell you about the set piece we constructed for the school play when I was in college?
We, so this is completely true.
I went to a teeny tiny university, but AOL had seen university.
So they sent us a thousand discs.
The problem with that is that the student body at my university was about 60.
So we were dealing with a surplus of AOL CDs.
We had nothing to do with them.
And we were getting ready for the play that the drama class was putting on.
And we needed to build some sort of futuristic set piece of some kind.
So we got a bunch of dowels and a bunch of clear string-ish and poked holes in the dowels
and tied the CDs in the holes and we called it the Orchard of the Future.
And then the whole thing collapsed and someone was just standing in a pile of a hundred AOL
CDs just everywhere.
It was really, it was a magic moment for all of us.
And I'm really glad I was able to be there.
And I'm really glad I told you about it now.
I mean, I think it's almost...
The most shocking, the most shocking thing about AOL CDs was that they worked.
Like people may convince themselves it didn't work.
It worked.
It turned out if you just coat the landscape in plastic CDs, you will get new signups.
You were saying?
Oh, yeah.
No, I'm just surprised that it stood up at all.
And it's collapsing on top of somebody into a giant mound of a hundred AOL CDs.
I think that just...
I think it was like a sign of the times to come.
Oh, absolutely.
Indeed.
The CD era, though, was preceded by the AOL floppy disk era.
And they would stick three and a half inch floppies to the covers of magazines.
And because these were being stuck on magazines and like thrown on bookshelves and sent through
the mail and everything, they actually used really good quality floppies.
And I think enough time has passed where I can admit that if AOL back then had somehow
gotten the idea that your address was a modest computer store that needed some floppies for
boxes on their counter, they would send you box after box of really good floppies that
you could then flick the little switch on and reformat and have blank floppies for all
your data desires.
This is purely a hypothetical statement, though, right?
Like, for legal purposes, I feel like we're required to say that's a purely hypothetical
construct.
I think...
I mean, if they're sending you the...
If they're willingly sending you then, you know, and you're willingly, you know, taking
the mail that's legally yours, I don't see any issues here.
Like, besides the Statue of Limitations has long expired at this point.
I would hope.
Yeah.
There are many Statues of Limitations that I'm glad expired since the 90s.
But moving on.
Um, another, another story in the news that I thought was particularly interesting.
Illinois, about a week ago, became the first state to ban AI therapists.
Good.
Yeah.
Generative AI has, of course, been all over the news and enough to make you either join
the hype train or want to puke.
But Illinois Governor J.B.
Pritzker has signed a bill into law banning AI therapy in the state.
Illinois is the first state to regulate the use of AI in mental health services.
Um, the law highlights that only licensed professionals are allowed to offer counseling services in
the state and forbids AI chatbots or tools from acting as a standalone therapist.
This from Engadget.
Um, I don't know.
What, what does, uh, what does everyone here think about the potential of AI for, uh, mental
health care?
You know, as a historian, I am, I am just pleased as punch to be here for this five year period
when a new technology or like every technology, the latest iteration of a technology lands into
society.
And you watch society struggle with the fundamental core beliefs of what even is this?
And what is that?
And, oh, we made a robot.
It makes paintings.
Or we have this machine.
Um, it's going to be something fascinating to look back on.
Um, and I've enjoyed kind of watching the debates.
Uh, there's a phrase that I've used in the past and it's not a, not a universal phrase,
but I call it punch it in the crib, which is that when you have a technology that people
are trying to foist, it is best at that point to ask the questions and not sit back because
historically we have not done that.
You know, we say, oh, here's a phone and the phone can play music and isn't that great?
And people aren't asking any questions.
They're just, the toy is working.
And then we come back later and, oh, it's encumbered with DM, DRM, or it doesn't have
these features or they don't allow this.
And we've lost this because of it.
And for AI, AI is getting, it's getting its due.
It can't walk to the, uh, it can't walk out to its car without getting punched because
of that, you know?
So for me, I'm, I'm kind of, uh, the, whenever people ask me what I think about it, I always
say, you know what I like?
I liked that one period when a whole range of bosses saw really nascent, not great AI that
was hallucinating and just sputtering sparks.
And they literally turned to their own employees and said, I can't wait to replace you with this
because that immediately set expectations for, oh, here's my position in the workforce.
And they, they, you know, people usually don't learn that a place doesn't care about them
until it's way too late.
But for one shining moment, the language isn't there.
So they all just go, wow, what is this thing?
Oh, a showastic parrot that imitates, um, this, this aspect.
Oh, can it do, can it, can it be my doctor now?
It's like, it can be a bad doctor now.
Okay.
That's that, that to me, watching society wrestle with this and watch it work.
And people are asking honest, good questions at a time when it may actually affect, you
know, it's one thing when we say, oh, I don't know, man, you know, home computers, they may
have been a bad idea.
It's kind of too late to ask that.
But now you can say, well, AI, maybe we don't need, maybe, maybe you need to have a talk
with your kid about, I mean, all right.
And also, I just want to say this too, is a 50 something.
If I was 12 right now, I would be AI-ing, like, imagine you're 12 and you wake up and
there's a thing that will do it.
Like, you don't know.
So, of course, like, this thing answers terribly, but it answers really fast.
I would, I'd be on that like a, like a bee on sugar, man.
That would be my, you know, and I hope my parents would take me aside and teach me a bunch of
things because of it.
Good.
That's all.
Look, man, I just want society to be better.
I just want us to be better.
I want us to ask questions.
I mean, things just really started going downhill when we lost Smarter Child.
Like, that's it.
You know, we should have stopped with AI right there.
Smarter Child, perfection.
But no, it's had to take them away.
Absolutely.
I like that.
We're having a huge thunderstorm outside and I believe it's being picked up by my mics here
and being sent out into the radio.
And these ominous bursts of thunder have been underlining this whole conversation about AI
and its place in the world.
And I can't wait to listen back to this is all I'm saying.
Yeah, it does lend sort of an air of ominousness to everything we're talking about.
But I've also been trying to check because I think it sounds louder through the mics than
it does in our space right now as it is.
It's a very strange moment.
By the way, as a fellow New Yorker, my immediate assumption was we're in controlled apartment
next to the train.
And it's just there.
That's how it is.
It's just, oh no, we forgot to mute every 17 minutes.
Oh no.
So I'm glad it's just, you know, it's the rain.
It's just a thunderstorm.
But the other thing I was thinking is that every attempt that has been made recently to
disrupt the mental health space, obviously none of it is turning out well because this
whole, sorry, this tech bro ethos of move fast and break things should not be applied to
certain fields of endeavor.
And I would say the mental health infrastructure such as it is, is definitely one of those
things.
And I think between people not meaning to wind up with AI therapists and winding up with
AI therapists and this whole idea of, you know, just take your problems through chatbot.
Um, it is, it is terrifying in what it could become and what it has become already.
Good heavens.
Riders on the storm.
See, now I'm into it.
I love that.
This could, this could go.
I don't know, man.
This AO, this AI thing could go either way.
Skynet has joined the chat.
Oh no, an elder god.
But yeah, but yeah, I'm, and, uh, the funny thing about, um, AI as mental health care is
it's not by any means new back in the 1960s, there was a development called Eliza, which
was, uh, which was a project over at MIT by, um, a programmer called Joseph Weisenbaum.
And, uh, it was a very simple take on what we would call a modern chatbot.
Um, of course it was, it was almost 60 years ago.
So it was, uh, very rudimentary.
It would just parrot things back to you.
And still, when people, when people at MIT, which, uh, you know, theoretically, these are
smarter people were playing with this thing.
Some people got really into the conversation and were feeling like they were talking to
a therapist and would say confidential things to it, which were ending up in computer tapes
all over the place.
And, uh, it was pretty wild and it was a bad idea then.
And it's a bad idea now.
Um, that's absolutely true.
I mean, I remember talking to, conversing with Eliza as a kid.
Um, but the other thing I was just thinking of now is this whole discussion that people
are busy having with the newest update to chat GPT and these personas that they've constructed
in whatever generative chatbot they're talking to have now all disappeared with the most recent
update.
And could you imagine if you had decided that that entity was your therapist and then all
like, I cannot imagine, well, number one, how that would work in general, but, you know,
I've also been working with the same mental health professional for like what, 15 years
now.
So, and, you know, even, even with a competent mental health source, if, uh, if your therapist
somehow rebooted and forgot everything that they know about you and, and your, uh, your
needs, that would be pretty devastating.
That would be pretty devastating, but also the sycophantic nature of so many of the chat
bots that has been built in would be terrible for therapy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is, it's worrying.
It's, uh, it's worrying and it, uh, it deserves keeping an eye on and also continuing to be cognizant
of the reasons this is not a good idea.
Even if the damn thing worked, it would not be a good idea.
And it doesn't, it probably doesn't.
Um, there's a, there's a demonstration of technology that I call the kiosk demo, right?
Which is where you put in a very simplistic interface, right?
Like that's how Google first got everyone's attention.
Instead of giving you a thousand knobs, you just had the Google logo in a little box and
it was like, type it in and I will do all this work.
And the astounding amount of work behind that little simple box to keep it going both on
the human side, right?
And also on the technological side, but it was what people expected.
And I believe it was the, uh, academic Dana Boyd who asked a bunch of children in the last
10 years, like, so what is Google?
Like she had them draw what they thought Google, what, what is a Google like asking a six-year-old
and you know, they have these images of big computers in the sky that answer questions or
that they're little creatures that live inside the computer and know everything and have read
every book.
And in the same way, the, the, I mean, look, I get it.
If the first time you deal with an AI, like a, like a chat bot situation, let's say a standard
like type anything, um, somebody made an earlier AI back in, oh, has to be like 2010 or 11.
He tried to make a text adventure kind of AI thing that used many of these models.
And I remember I was playing the game and I was walking along a forest and I said, well,
let me fly to a city.
I just typed it in.
It went, well, your gossamer wings extend out.
And I was like, that is amazing.
But, but I didn't know all the stuff behind it.
And what's happening now is people are taking what's essentially an acute tech demo that has
no run through.
And they're like, but wait a minute, let's just connect it to medication.
Let's just have it invest in stocks.
Let's have it raise my child.
And the answer is no, this is a tech demo.
This is like, you know, going down to a, to a, to a convention and they're showing a dumb
little robot.
They just finished building overnight and just saying, this is going to walk my dog tomorrow.
Oh, it's back.
The elder God is back.
There it is.
So here's the thing.
I don't, I don't know if we're really allowed to speak too ill of AI.
Clearly it's taken over the weather.
And when, excuse me, speaking ill of the AI gods is not acceptable on the radio.
Uh, anyway, so that's like, it is a really interesting time.
And people are going to make absolutely grandiose mistakes and a bunch of really honest, innocent
people will think of it as an interesting tool, just not knowing any better.
Cause they're not hooked into every single, they don't know that using it is, has these
ramifications and people are trying to educate them and they're going to have a really rough
time.
So, although by the way, the slogan of 2025 is we're going to have a really rough time.
So actually it just applies for everything.
No, you were saying about like, if you had had this when you were 12 and I was talking with
somebody about this recently, like, I know the sort of person I was when I was younger
would have been very susceptible to getting hooked into this whole scene in very unhealthy ways.
I mean, I had the things I was dealing with as a kid, you know, depression, anxiety, social
isolation, all sorts of, all sorts of terrible things that left me feeling very lonely.
And if I could sit in front of my computer or other small device and have something vaguely
shaped like a friend that would have really, that, that would have done a number on me.
And, uh, I, I am forever grateful that I am the age I am and didn't have to deal with
this crap in the media environment, technological environment, whatever.
Um, at that stage of my development, it would definitely not have been good for me.
Um, and yeah, I don't want to derail you, man, but man, that phrase, that phrase, I throughout
my life, I've had quite a few people in my life who I would have called vaguely shaped
like a friend where it hasn't worked out.
Oh, Steven, he was, he was a nice guy.
He was vaguely shaped like a friend until it worked out.
I think we may have one or two of those in common, but, uh, but in any case, um, shifting
gears now, I do want to talk about what's coming up this weekend and Kusanagi.
I wanted, uh, you and, uh, Jason to come on here and talk about the things that you're
going to be doing now, uh, Kusanagi, you are, uh, very often to be found at, uh, at the
HOPE conference, um, in a position at the info desk, aren't you?
Yeah, I, I run the info desk now.
It's been great the past nine years.
First, I was a volunteer sleeping behind the info desk because I couldn't afford a hotel
room.
Now I run the desk and tell everyone to do their things.
Um, yeah.
Um, so I handle all of the volunteer coordination now, um, our food trucks, um, that was me
last year.
It was me again this year.
Awesome.
Um, what else?
I, I do so much that I forget how much I've actually done.
Um, I've, uh, the hotels, the hotel blocks that are so many of our attendees were able
to book rooms at that was, um, a little bit of the stuff I've done, but yeah, most of the
time it's me at the info desk yelling at people, which is really, and truly what my passion
is, yelling at people while I'm admitting things.
I'm doing one of those things right now, but not yelling.
Um, and Jason and I, we actually have been, uh, hosting the Hackers Got Talent show for,
since its inception, I think, in 2016.
Yeah.
Back when it was, back when it was at the, uh, Hotel Pen, uh, it was this idea of like, well,
why don't we just, how do we fill a little bit of time?
And the Hotel Pen had a number of stages and these things.
And we were like, we don't want to have nothing at night.
And what would be really a fun thing?
And I think it was just given to me by Emmanuel as a, like, maybe we could do this.
And it was, let's do a talent show.
And, uh, of course, the, like a, like a good improv show or a good sketch comedy show, you
know, we walk in on Friday having no idea if there's any talent to be had.
And, um, then we literally scare up talent.
It's like a potluck of performance.
And it's got this very honest hand hewn feel moments that feel like they have to have been
scripted.
I think my favorite one from last year was like 40 minutes in some, I was like, is there,
are there any more, are there any more people?
Do we have any?
And somebody in the back goes, I have an ocarina.
Yes.
And, and I was like, let me hear this.
You were out there for 40 minutes watching all these acts.
And you were like, I wonder if my ocarina might be welcome.
And to, to be clear for our listeners at home, the acts started off with licking my
own elbow, uh, dolphin noises with a great egregious eye contact.
Um, that that's what we started off with.
And then this guy is sitting there with his ocarina the entire time.
Um, the, the most, the most hackery hackers got town thing for me was the guy who could
do the, uh, throat singing and he brought up a spectrometer to prove that he was throat
singing.
He had a time-based spectrometer to go, look, see, I'm causing all these harmonics.
And I'm like, all right, geek, these, these, this translates this, this, this talent transfers
to nowhere, which is what made it perfect.
And, uh, so we do that and that's actually worked out pretty well.
And then, you know, uh, I happen to live near hope, like in terms of a drive and everything
else.
So for me, it's like my home con now.
And it's mostly where I try to like do one or two speeches this year.
I'm doing a workshop.
I'm starting to think it might be time to pass on my knowledge in a way that's useful.
And this is kind of a dry run for, can I be an educator or am I one of those professors
who's going to get the evaluation of had a fun time, learned nothing.
And so we'll see, but my, um, my workshop, and I'm wondering how that's going to go because
of the phrasing is about the technique of interviewing for the purposes of historical, uh, you know,
um, oral history and getting knowledge from people and kind of getting down what, you
know, what knowledge exists in people's minds that you otherwise would not get because they
might not be comfortable writing stuff down, but they might be comfortable talking and what
techniques do you use?
I'm wondering how many people will show up thinking it's going to be tips on how to win
at my job interview and I may have to do something for them, but we'll see.
Um, and what to do when you are interviewed, which to me, honestly, being an interviewer for
like 300 people over the years for my documentaries made me a good interview for documentaries.
They would ask me to come in cause they knew I knew what they needed.
Um, so it's a good thing to have, um, Cheshire Catalyst, bless his soul, uh, showed me his
technique when I interviewed him because before I asked a question, he blasted into a five minute
presentation on hackers, then stopped and went, what's your first question?
So that way the editor who is rushed could go, well, that's all I needed.
So he controls the narrative.
It was a really, it was a really eyeopening moment with him.
Um, and, and to be honest on a, on a more, you know, whatever, sweet note, um, that's
him right now.
Part of what I'm, part of what I'm trying to do is kind of be part of that, um, that part
of like, uh, like what Cheshire was trying to do, which is be a presence so that people
who are, you know, when you, when you have as many panels as there are panels and presentations
and events that an event like this has, you got a lot of first timers, both attendee and
speaker.
You have a lot of people who are looking to understand anything and being somebody who's
dressed fun, looks like they know what they're doing and is welcoming is important because
you need those folks so that when someone comes up and goes, you know, I don't even know
where this stage is.
And I go, ah, you are in the wrong building, my friend, or where did you, you know, you
know, they see you talking to somebody who's, I mean, this was something that would happen
all the time, right?
You'd, you'd talk to somebody who was quote unquote famous.
Like they were a name, they had made a book or they were a hacker of some renown and talking
to someone like me will be a case of like, oh, if he's talking, I can go up and talk to
him and people feel they don't have to tiptoe around these figures because, you know, people
are at these cons because they want to meet people.
Otherwise, why go?
Like, it's not TV.
So, you know, I've been, I've been very, um, touched by watching some of that go through.
So for me, I guess I'm like a knockabout mascot at this point.
We'll see how that works out.
Well, we look forward to knocking you about.
And, uh, yeah.
And, uh, speaking of the conference, uh, tickets are no longer being sold online.
The in-person tickets.
That's, I, but yes, the in-person tickets are no longer being sold.
I think as of right.
Oh, wow.
That's a big lightning.
Um, I think as of right now, there are still some virtual attendee tickets still available.
Um, we're, you're going to be, um, keeping it open until I believe around midnight tonight.
Your tickets will be processed tomorrow.
Um, but if you want to come in person, you need to buy your ticket in person for an increased fee, unfortunately.
But.
At the door.
It's an emotional support fee.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As a reminder, if you're listening to this archived on Thursday, uh, you can't do that anymore.
Uh, we're talking about today, August ticket sales completely cease for virtuals at the
end of August, uh, 13th.
I have to read numbers.
That's hard.
Um, August 13th, 2025 in-person ticket sales up tomorrow, August 14th at St. John's.
If you are listening to this archived, we didn't know that those thundering sounds were the
elder God and we send his blessings to you and the life you now live under him.
Absolutely.
And, uh, Alex, you're, you're going to be, uh, presenting, aren't you?
I am.
I'm presenting twice.
You know, at the last one, I think I presented every single day.
So three months.
So I'm just doing two presentations today on, I'm sorry, the, this weekend will be, I think
Friday at 12 PM and then Saturday at 8 PM, um, talking about all kinds of, uh, interesting
things.
And in particular, the Saturday talk will be about, uh, bridging the gap between the Ethereum
ecosystem and the hacker ecosystem.
And hopefully demonstrating that the blockchain world is not full of degenerate gamblers and
fraudsters, but, you know, we have shared values and, and I think we're very aligned in
terms of the future we want to see on the internet, as well as the technologies that underpin both
the world of the blockchains and the hacker ecosystem as well.
So, uh, I hope that will be an eyeopening one for many people.
And I hope to see many of our listeners there.
It, uh, it should be fun.
And, uh, you know, I'm looking forward to this.
Uh, once again, I'm actually not on the staff this year, so I get to go as an attendee.
Um, and, uh, I believe you, I, I am also looking forward to this.
I am an attendee and I'm actually in town and healthy this year.
So that's very exciting because that has not been the case for the last couple of events.
Yes.
Well, that's great news.
Yeah.
Last year you could not be there and I wore a badge with your face on it.
You certainly did.
And this time I'll just be there.
Yes.
But can I still wear the badge or?
It'll, instead of the badge of a Gila's face, it'll be Gila's face.
However, I suppose that theoretically you could wear the badge on one shoulder and I'll just
stand on your other side.
Or you could, you could wear the Gila sandwich or I could wear the badge.
That's also true.
I mean, you, you may be the one person in the world who cannot wear a badge with your face
on it.
Um, where on earth would you come up with an idea like that?
But in any case, um, it should be interesting.
And, uh, also we could use your help if you're going to the conference.
Um, I think, uh, there are things you can volunteer for to help with still, and we'll
continue to be over the conference.
Uh, Kusanagi, could you speak about that a bit?
Very happily.
Um, I do want to get a couple of things out first.
If you're planning on volunteering, we have a, uh, systems designed for our volunteers
at volunteers.hope.net.
Um, you can sign up there.
Um, once you sign up, you'll be able to sign up for shifts.
This year we are requiring you to be signed up and checked in before going to your shifts.
Um, just a quick note about the different things available.
Um, tomorrow at 3 p.m., that's, um, August 14th, 2025 at 3.
Uh, we're actually starting to set up.
It'll go pretty quick.
Um, it's just getting, uh, everything.
And then for the conference itself, we have a couple of different, uh, types of roles.
Um, we have the volunteers for the speaker tracks.
Those are MCs and AV.
Um, MCs basically guide the speakers to, you know, start and stop on time at help, uh,
help ask, uh, help the audience ask questions.
There we go.
Um, that includes our virtual audience as well.
Um, we have, of course, the info desk.
If anyone knows stuff about stuff, it's us at the info desk.
Um, we'll tell you the Wi-Fi password, where the bathrooms are, where the tracks are, uh, the Wi-Fi password, um, where the different workshops are located, uh, where the vendors are, the bathrooms, the Wi-Fi password.
You know, things like that.
Um, we also have, um, security.
Those are our wonderful folks who make sure the, um, all our attendees have their badges, make sure that no unticketed people come in.
Um, if there's any issues, they will work with me essentially to unmake those issues.
Um, and for our virtual attendees, um, if you still want to volunteer, you can.
Uh, we do have a virtual volunteer spot, uh, open.
And those volunteers will help with, um, basically just making sure that everything sounds good on our streams.
Um, they'll also be answering questions in our Matrix, um, which our virtual volunteers, you should be getting those, uh, our virtual attendees, I'm sorry.
You should be getting your codes for Matrix very soon.
If you are in person, I believe you're going to be getting it at registration when you get there.
Um, and like I mentioned earlier, um, our tickets are going to be on sale starting 3 p.m. on Thursday, August 14th.
So, if you don't have one, you can still buy one in person.
Virtual tickets end tonight, August 13th.
And where can, uh, where can one go to find more information about this?
Oh, there's plenty of places.
Um, but hope.net will have the, uh, information for, uh, tickets, um, a little bit about our volunteer stuff where you can, uh, go to sign up for the email list for volunteering.
Um, and I believe the completed, uh, calendars also at hope.net slash schedule.
I could be wrong.
I don't have it up in front of me.
Um, uh, what a bad promotion I am.
Um, but yeah, so hope.net has everything available.
Um, the schedules, uh, bios for talks, speakers, workshops, performances, um, how to volunteer, um, where St. John's is and our code of conduct.
All important stuff.
I also noticed that the, uh, the hope schedule app for Android has updated from the, uh, previous conference to the current one.
So, if you, if you had it, uh, installed last year and left it there, it's updated, um, whether you got it from Play Store or FDroid or whatever.
Um, and, uh, if you don't have it, you can find it there.
Um, just to clarify, is there an app for the conference that is available for iPhone users?
Great question.
At this time, I do not believe there is, um, unless HackerTracker is iOS.
If HackerTracker is iOS, then yes, it'll be uploaded.
It should be actually uploaded today, um, the schedule for hope.
If, uh, if it's not iOS, then I'm sorry.
Anyway, we don't have anyone, uh, on staff who does iOS anymore.
I used to, but no, not anymore.
And, you know, you can always, instead of using a phone app, just bring up the actual website on your phone.
Yeah, schedule.hope.net is the, uh, schedule, um, and you see everything here.
It's actually beautifully laid out.
Um, yeah, it's actually really nicely laid out.
And if you're really kicking it old school, there will also be paper schedules, right?
Uh, yes.
So, outside each of the, um, major talk areas, um, I can, can I just say the room names?
Is that, is that fine?
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
So, outside Marillac Auditorium, Little Theater, and Tobin, um, those are our three main speaker tracks.
We will have paper schedules in front of each door, every day changed by my wonderful volunteers at InfoDesk.
Um, we will also generally know when talks are, so if you have a question, please come over and ask us.
Um, just stop asking us for the Wi-Fi password.
It's posted up on the wall already.
Um, but yeah, so we'll, we'll be able to direct you if you know when you're, if you know what your talk is or, um, don't know.
If you know what, what talk you want to go to and you don't know where it is, come ask us.
We'll be able to find it for you, I don't know.
Um, one, one last question I'd like to put to each of, uh, you who are on with us, um, while we got a few minutes left.
What, uh, would you say if someone is brand new to attending a conference like this, uh, what would, what's something that, uh, you would hope they know?
Um, Kusanagi, how about you first?
That's, that's a really, really difficult question.
Um, everyone's a friend to be made.
Like, there are no people who come to this conference over the past 10, 10, what, 9, 10 years, whatever.
Numbers are hard.
Um, 10 years I've been coming to Hope and been adjacent to the 2600 community.
Um, no one's really, like, unfriendly.
Everyone's always interested in talking to you, getting to know what your story is.
Um, you know, like, they're, they're friends and it's okay if you're coming by yourself, this is your first time.
Just hang out, maybe volunteer, you'll be able to meet some people, um, who are new.
Um, maybe you'll, or do some, uh, go to a talk and learn something that, like, could completely revolutionize your life.
Um, yeah, no, just be open-minded, go explore.
Um, definitely, um, yeah, that's all I'd say.
Excellent.
How about you, Jason?
Well, I would never tell people how to enjoy their lives, but I will say that, uh, the concept of a hacker conference has overgone, you know, all sorts of different ideas over the years.
And I've done talks on it, you know, they started a hundred years ago and engineers would get together and, and then drink at night after showing off their works.
But in the early 1990s, kids started arranging themselves in backyards.
And then why don't we move to picnic tables?
And why don't we have it in the park?
And why don't we do that?
And it would grow.
And one of the side effects of that is that different conventions went in different ranges.
So many of them kind of became, well, we've been out in the park, but now Stanley works for a security company.
So he should talk about a security company.
And it became a little bit more about what's our professional take and what that's going to be.
And those are dominant.
But there's another branch.
And I think I put hope clearly under this, which is just let's assemble a lot of people with knowledge and curiosity and eagerness.
And let's ask those people to either present or engage from the audience or engage in central areas.
And let's set up a stage and a meeting space and a town square for all these people to derive of it what they want.
And it's not really focused on drinking and partying.
It's not focused on selling products.
It's focused primarily on let's have these smart people.
There's a tradition for 2600 and other hacker magazines and groups and other things for people to take a train in or drive in to some gathering because they want to be near other people like them.
And in that spirit, a lot of that is here.
People who are driving from around because they just want to meet a bunch of people in person.
They want to see smart people talk, but they also want to just be soldering something in the center of a table and learning something.
And then you have people who are bringing in their kids.
And I will say that hope has something really special, which I have been, I don't know, like it blew me away last year, which is that one of the buildings is classrooms.
And so traditionally, you think of a presentation at a hacker conference.
It's a person up with a slide going, wow, I figured out if you do this and do this, the machine doesn't work as well.
And I figured out if I do this, I can make the machine do this.
But then I walk by and it's just somebody teaching databases, but they're teaching it from a we only got today.
I got to ramp you up.
I got to get you going.
Here's what I've learned.
Let's all share what we have.
And and there are last year I had a we always we always have some shockingly young child become a ham radio operator and that they come that way because there's a room.
There's a place for them.
Absolutely.
So that's what it all is for me.
It really is.
And we're going to have to leave it there.
Send us email.
OTH at 2600 dot com.
Those of you going this weekend, we'll see you there.
For off the hook, this is Rob T. Firefly.
Have a very good night.
I can sing a song for you and me.
I can make a song for all who feel love.
I love you so much.
Take my breath away.
Oh, I miss you.
Hold me tight.
Anytime, forever, ever.
It's my love.
You can steal my heart away.
Oh, it's your love.
I'll be inside of your soul.
Drifting deeper.
Oh, yeah.
I love you so much.
Take my breath away.
Oh, I miss you.
Hold me tight.
Anytime, forever, ever.
It's my love.
You can steal my heart away.
Oh, it's your love.
I'll be inside of your soul.
Drifting deeper.
Okay, man.
Bye.
Thank you.