We're sorry, you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service.
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The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
One diddly bomb for the best, it's back the worst.
I hope that's understood.
One diddly bomb!
One diddly bomb!
The fireball!
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We have in Signal Land, Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
We have Gila.
Good evening.
And we have Alex.
Good morning.
Right, because you're somewhere else.
That's right.
It's Thursday here.
I'm in Sicily at the moment, in Trapani.
As I promised last week, I would be in some kind of far-flung remote location.
So here I am.
Happy Thursday.
Welcome to Thursday.
And I got to say, this past weekend, I met some of the coolest people on Earth.
I really did.
And I'm not just talking about you guys.
And by the way, I'm sorry about that mix-up.
I haven't seen you guys in so long.
I honestly thought Rob was Alex, and Alex was Rob.
And I was addressing you inappropriately.
So anything I said to either of you, I meant for the other.
So just take that into consideration, please.
It's been so long.
It's been so long since we've seen each other in person.
But yeah, we had this massive gathering in Queens, and we just met so many of our listeners
and so many of people in the hacker community that are some of the coolest people on Earth.
It's amazing.
You have the elevator conversations.
You have conversations passing people outside, inside, at talks, and incredible talks as well.
Alex, I know you were a major part of this.
You had a couple of talks.
In fact, there was an off-the-hook last-minute talk because I think your panel canceled,
and you weren't able to carry the panel yourself.
So you threw together an off-the-hook ask-me-anything.
I hope you didn't give away too much.
No, I don't think so yet.
Sadly, my panel on Saturday had to cancel because our colleague, Dan Nowak,
who was really the key man of that panel,
we got really sick over in Las Vegas a couple of days before,
maybe about a week before, over at the B-Sides event associated with DEF CON,
that other hacker conference that happens in the summer.
And so we needed something to fill up that void.
I mean, it was such an important slot on Saturday at 12 p.m.
And we said, hey, you know what?
We're all here.
We're all in the same place, physically located in the same vicinity for the first time in a very,
very long time.
So why don't we put together a panel about off-the-hook?
And it was so cool to see so many people show up and to have so many comments come in from the
matrix chat during that panel that were so uplifting.
And it's so nice to know that people are really listening and that our words have made such a difference in so many people's lives.
I think we tend to forget about that.
And the words of encouragement and descriptions of off-the-hook were so superlative and so supportive,
I almost forgot that we get all this criticism about being so political sometimes.
So it was a really nice change, I have to say, to receive all this praise as opposed to, you know, criticism.
So I'll leave it there.
I think that was one of the highlights of the entire weekend for me.
If I could just jump in for a second.
Is anyone else hearing that music?
No.
I don't hear anything.
Really?
Have I really lost my mind finally?
It's a flashback.
No.
This is the interlude music between all the sessions.
I haven't been able to get it out of my head in several days, and now I'm really hearing it loud.
Oh, you think it's funny?
Okay.
Now, turn it.
Please, turn it.
Okay.
I love the piece.
I really do.
No question about that.
But I've heard it way too much, and I just would like a rest.
Yeah.
You know, we had this amazing system where, you know, updates would be aired on screens and music would play.
And it's really not that complicated.
But tell me, Alex, some of the questions that were asked, because I wasn't able to be at that panel except for a little bit when I came in and remembered what your faces looked like.
Yeah, I think some of the questions, right?
I mean, Rob, too, jump in and help me out here.
But I think one of the questions that I appreciated was somebody asked about what were some of the most high drama moments on Off the Hook that you can recall?
And the answer I gave to that, and I think this is before you came onto the stage, Emanuel.
But the answer that I gave to that was to go way back to 2000 when WBAI...
Hostage taking on the air.
Hostage taking, exactly.
Basically, yeah.
Oh, no, wait, wait, wait.
I've got the wrong station.
Sorry.
That's the other...
Okay, never mind.
Well, it was basically like hostage taking because there were a whole bunch of WBAI supporters that...
That was a police invasion.
That was different.
It was.
But people were arrested that night, too, for staying in the station.
And that was when, if you recall, way back then, I think you were the aberration that had a cell phone.
Not everybody had a cell phone 25 years ago.
And the police were in the station because WBAI was suffering a corporate takeover, as it does, I guess, every, I don't know, two decades or so.
Something like that, when you have to deal with that within WBAI.
And there was a sit-in, I think it was like the local advisory board or something like that, was up at 110 Wall Street on 20th floor and refused to leave.
One, not 120 Wall Street.
I always get it wrong.
God damn it.
Why do I always switch it up?
It was 120 Wall Street.
Okay.
I thought I got it right that time, but I didn't.
And you called your cell phone from the station.
And I ran out into the hallway and put the phone up to the mouth of a police officer who was announcing that everybody was going to be arrested if they didn't leave.
And then that night, when we showed up outside the station, after a whole bunch of people were actually arrested within WBAI for refusing to leave the station, it was incredible the support that we received outside because there was a drum circle out there.
There were protesters outside the station.
It was really, I think that was one of the highest drama moments that I could recall.
BAI can organize a drum circle faster than any other radio station in the greater New York metropolitan area.
I'm not kidding about that.
If anyone wants to call us on that, we will be there.
But, yeah, it was a really amazing panel from all accounts.
And it's great that we can just throw that together when need be.
But, you know, there were some other talks as well, some really good talks.
In fact, I think most of the talks were really, really good.
But, you know, a few weeks ago, we had Joshua Aaron on the radio here.
He's the guy that wrote the app called IceBlock, which is designed to alert people when ICE is in town or to let people know just what exactly is going on.
And he's been targeted by the Trump administration for daring to do that.
And, you know, basically, the app does nothing more than tell people, look at what I see.
This is happening right in front of me.
And apparently the administration preferred that people keep quiet and not share this information.
So he gave a talk.
It was a virtual talk.
And I'm going to just play an excerpt, the opening, because I think that is incredibly strong, one of the stronger pieces that we had.
We had so many good pieces, so many good topics and seminars, lectures, Q&As.
It was really incredible.
But this is from Sunday, the opening of Joshua Aaron.
Good afternoon.
He can't see you.
I can't see you, but I'm so happy to be with you.
And I'm sorry it has to be remote.
But, listen, happy to be there.
And so let me start off by saying, like, good afternoon.
I'm Joshua Aaron, the creator of IceBlock, a crowdsourced anonymous platform allowing users to report public sightings of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agents to other users within a five-mile radius of the sightings location.
I'm sure many of you are familiar with IceBlock, and hopefully a lot of you have it installed not only for your own protection, but to help keep others in your community safe.
After watching Trump's first term and then reading Project 2025 and hearing his campaign rhetoric, I saw the writing on the wall and knew I had to do something to help fight back.
I was raised in a Jewish household, and growing up in that community, I had the opportunity to meet Holocaust survivors and learn all about the history of Hitler's rise to power in Nazi Germany.
And when we see five-year-olds in courtrooms without representation, college students being disappeared for their political beliefs, or babies being ripped from their mother's arms while they're screaming for their children, we are watching history repeat itself.
Now, some have criticized me for making this comparison and using terms like Gestapo to describe ICE agents or concentration camps to describe the detention centers.
And my response is always the same.
If you know your history, you also know that the Holocaust didn't start with the death camps.
It started with leaders dividing the people of Germany by making anyone who didn't look like them or believe in the God they believed in their enemies.
From there, work camps were built, and those camps are very much akin to the detention centers we are seeing today.
We have a camp in Florida called Alligator Alcatraz, and the right thinks it's cute to sell merch, like hats and T-shirts,
while pocketing the money for the Florida Republican Party.
These conditions are deplorable, with 32 people to a cage, only three toilets, and they're told to get their drinking water from the back of the toilet.
We've heard the stories of these detainees being zip-tied, made to get on their knees and eat off the floor.
And this is inhumane, and the worst part is that over 92% of these people have never committed a violent crime.
Just this week, we learned that over 80% of the people detained there are sick with COVID-like symptoms,
and they're starting to clear people out, though we don't know where they're being sent next.
With regards to the Gestapo reference, we have masked agents in plain clothes or military-style gear who refuse to identify themselves,
camp outside of elementary schools, knock down the doors of foster children, drag people out of their cars,
and on multiple occasions arrest U.S. citizens because they refuse to look at their identification.
They show up claiming that they have a warrant when it's nothing more than what is called an administrative warrant.
And while technically a legal document, it's not the same thing as a judicial warrant, and it does not carry the same authority.
A judicial warrant is issued by a judge or a magistrate based on probable cause signed under the authority of the judiciary.
This is the only type that grants law enforcement the full legal authority to enter private property without consent.
An administrative warrant is issued by a government agency, for example, ICE or OSHA or housing inspectors,
under statutory authority and is not signed by a judge.
It is typically used for administrative or civil enforcement and does not authorize forcible entry into a home or private area without consent.
So while an administrative warrant is technically a legal document in the sense that it's issued under some law or regulation,
it is not an official warrant in the Fourth Amendment sense.
For entry into a private residence or to compel certain actions,
only a judicial warrant signed by a judge or magistrate qualifies.
They fully believe the law doesn't apply to them and are now accusing anyone they falsely arrest,
assault, or detain of assaulting them.
That's how this administration can continue to go to the media
with their false claims of the significant increase in assaults against ICE agents.
And that is Joshua Aaron, as recorded at the Hackers on Planet Earth gathering this past weekend.
He's the creator of the IceBlock app, and he spoke for two hours, could have spoken for four hours,
took all kinds of questions, suggestions about the app,
and it was a great dialogue, both technical and social.
Kind of the epitome of what we do here, talking about the technology that we are facing every day,
challenges and setbacks and potential, but also what's happening in our world
that makes these apps, these technological advances so vital and so important.
And something like the IceBlock app is such an incredible tool for people to have
so they are informed as to what's going on in their neighborhood.
And I understand, based on that talk, that this week it hit one million users.
And much of that, much of that is because of the unhinged reaction by the Trump administration
where he has been threatened, his wife has been fired from her job,
and all kinds of hell that nobody should have to go through he is experiencing right now.
So it was a real honor to have somebody like that be a part of that gathering
and to just see the reaction, to see people wake up to all this.
And any thoughts from you guys on that particular talk or any other talk?
Yeah, the reaction to it was really interesting because some folks were really into it,
some folks got caught up in criticizing the ways in which he chose to do certain things,
but the dialogue is important to have.
And all in all, it's all helping to get the issue that this is all about
more fully addressable in the public sphere.
And I don't think there's any underestimating the importance of that.
I saw some of that disagreement.
And in the hacker world, everyone's going to have a different opinion
on how an app should be written, how data should be stored or not stored.
And of course, one of the big issues is that this is only available on iPhones.
It does not work on Android.
And there are all kinds of reasons we won't get into here.
We've already gotten into them in a previous show,
and he gets into it very much in detail at his two-hour talk.
But the disagreements and the suggestions, they were all done really respectfully.
And I was impressed by that.
That's why I say these were such awesome people.
I include everybody, you know, the attendees as well as the speakers,
because we were able to listen to each other, disagree,
and just enjoy each other's company, whether virtual or in person.
And I got to say that kind of fits the vibe of the whole weekend, too,
because I think folks knew that it was all the more important,
perhaps more than ever before in this event's history,
to all pull together and do everything we could to have it go smoothly.
I heard good things from the folks I knew who were doing security
and other sort of wrangling from you guys and others,
and just the smoothness with which things went.
And the event itself ended up just being really, really impressive and comfortable,
and it felt safe.
Alex, any thoughts?
Alex, are you there?
Yeah, I think I had a great time.
I think there is this very vibrant, grassroots feeling to hope
that it's really missing at a whole bunch of other conferences
that are either too large now or too corporate-focused.
Like this conference, to me, always, since I went to the first one in 1994
when I was a teenager, I was 15 at that one.
This one has always fostered this real, true sense of community
and a really true sense of collaboration.
And I've loved it.
And one of my highlights of the entire weekend at Hope
was meeting up with people that I haven't seen in many, many years
that showed up.
People from, you know, 20 years ago that have showed up and said,
hey, I've been out of the scene for a little while, now I'm here again.
And just to see how inspired they were by being back at Hope after some time
really re-energized me as well.
And I think in that spirit and in that vein, on Saturday night,
along with two colleagues of mine, Phil Dian and Harry Halpin,
we had a talk at 8 p.m. that was about fostering the sense of community
between the hacker culture and the hacker subculture
and the Ethereum and blockchain subcultures,
which are two cultures, I think, that share very much the same ethos
and the same vision but have been historically divided for some years
without really any, I think, real explanation for it.
There's prejudices that have been bandied about from both cultures.
And what we were there to do was to try to bridge that gap.
And we called it bridging the decentralized gap.
And that talk was just so well-received.
It was hard to extricate ourselves from all the many conversations
that we had with the attendees after that talk
because we were able to demonstrate that, look, the hacker culture
and the real builders from the Ethereum and the blockchain worlds
have that same vision.
And we're all talking about the same tech
and we're relying on the same tech in the Ethereum world
that the hacker culture fought for, bled for, and died for back in the 90s.
And I'm talking about things like asymmetric public key cryptography
on which the Ethereum culture is built
and the same kind of shared values with respect to promotion of open source,
building out in public, keeping things accountable,
auditability, transparency,
all these things that I think we were able to bring to the forefront.
And that was just so well-received
because of the sense of community within the HOPE conference.
I thought that particularly with this disagreement that was talked about
in Josh's talk, it was coming from a place of love.
Like everybody wants the stuff to work and be safe for everyone.
There's just different ways about going about it.
And I think each side of whatever, quote, disagreement
is really just trying to create understanding
about their way of thinking about it
and because they both care, I guess my understanding
or what I see in that discussion about something technical
or a choice that's made in something
is people care very deeply about this issue.
Like it's not that there's one way to go about it necessarily
or that one way is perfect.
But regardless of that, people want to figure it out.
And that really applies to so many of the other talks
that there were in general.
But anyway, it's good to see people
being complimentary and enjoying something,
but also having insight.
And that's the kind of way you innovate.
Absolutely, yes.
And it's just this spirit of rebellion
that I think has always been part of the hacker culture
and culture in general.
I just saw this before coming on the air.
It's not attributed.
It's one of these things that is being passed around
on social media.
But it's talking about ICE raids in Los Angeles.
And you realize that they can't win
because they're not clever enough.
And the people that we know,
these cool people that we get to hang out with
every now and then,
they are clever enough.
They are positive enough.
And they're imaginative enough.
Listen to this.
The LA has been and continues to protest against ICE.
These protests haven't gotten any smaller
or lost any momentum.
But social media wasn't reflecting it.
TikTok users,
realizing that the platform
slash other social media
were censoring, deleting,
and shadow banning these protest videos,
well, they decided to find a workaround.
They're calling it the LA Music Festival.
ICE detention centers
and other protest locations
are stages.
The hottest band
is Rage Against the Machine.
Here's what gear
you should be bringing
to stay safe
at the LA Music Festival.
And it worked.
TikTok has become
a proving ground
for a lot of new music,
meaning lots of labels
and organizations
have lucrative deals with TikTok
to promote their new artists
and music festivals.
So they absolutely cannot
censor the words
music festival
or train the algorithm
to ignore it
or they risk endangering
that very important revenue.
So now protest videos
are flooding feeds again,
but it's the LA 24-7 Music Festival.
Truly an incredible timeline
we've landed in.
That, folks,
is how you win.
Fully, yeah.
I love that tactic.
Just you have to mix it up.
Don't be what's expected
in making choices like that.
It's really simple.
I love that.
That's, like, very clever.
Just turn it around
and make it function
and in a way that
it confuses authority, right?
Absolutely, yes.
Gila, it looks like
you have something to say.
Oh, gosh, yes.
No, absolutely.
I mean, I was...
The spirit and the vibe
all weekend was really lovely
and the person
with whom I attended
the most talks
likes to sit
in the very front of the room.
So it was interesting
to be right up
near all of the speakers
and then to hear everything
coming from behind us.
It was a wonderful thing
to see all weekend.
I vastly enjoyed it.
But not on that topic,
talking about ICE stuff,
it's also been nice
to see the number
of mobilizations
that are happening,
especially around
the Delmarva area
as people are kind of
pulling together
to just kind of surround ICE
and stop them
from what they're doing.
I appreciate that, too.
Absolutely.
And it all ties in.
These things matter.
And the reason we talk
about it so much
is because our country
is going through something
it's never gone through before.
And here at BAI,
we take that kind of thing
very, very seriously.
And we have a large number
of people that can address
these topics
with all manner of expertise.
So it's a station
well worth listening to,
well worth supporting,
and making sure
that it's defended
against whatever threats
are lying in wait.
What's happening
to PBS and NPR
is atrocious, obviously,
but it affects
all of community radio,
and certainly WBAI
is in the forefront of that.
So whatever you can manage
to donate to WBAI,
please go to
give2wbai.org.
Did I get that right?
Give2wbai.org?
Okay, I'm sorry.
There's so many websites.
Buddy.wbai.org.
And pledge whatever
you can afford.
Pledge a monthly amount.
You know, if you pledge
$30 a month,
that's $1 a day.
That's $1 a day.
Are we worth $1 a day?
I think this radio station,
which maintains this spirit of rebellion,
which does not cave,
which survives all kinds of challenges
from within and from without,
and has been doing so since 1960.
Again,
we'll match any other radio station
that has done something like that.
that's worth $1 a day.
I would say it's worth $2 a day.
You know,
and to have something like that,
to know that you can turn on the radio
and, you know,
hear something,
you won't always agree,
you won't always like it,
but it's going to be there.
It's not going to be intimidated
and threatened
and basically silenced.
Like,
so many things are being silenced these days.
I mean,
you know,
we're talking about radio stations
being sold now
because they can't afford to
continue operating without CPB funding,
which Trump is taking away.
We have those stations
turning literally to religion
because if they sell the station,
who's going to buy it?
Obviously,
a religious group is going to buy it
because they qualify
for a non-commercial radio license.
It's sad,
it's pathetic,
and it's bad for democracy
and freedom of speech.
And that's something
that we need to stand up for,
and we need to fight that.
So your support
anytime
is appreciated.
Again,
give to WBAI.org,
buddy.wbai.org.
Those are the websites to go to
to support this radio station.
Go ahead, Rob.
Yeah,
I mean,
one thing that struck me
about so many of the talks
and workshops
at Hope this past weekend
was so many of them
are about
individuals
and groups
who saw a problem
that needed solving
and figured a way to,
here's a way
for the solution to that
to come from the community,
to come from us,
to come from folks
who are interested
in doing it
because the help
is just not out there.
They have to be
the ones who help.
And this station
is an amazing example
of just that.
This station
is here
because of,
because,
solely because
of the people
listening to it
and the people
who have been keeping it going
since 1960.
That's 65 years
of this
just because of you.
You there listening.
And those of you
who can,
going to
buddy.wbai.org
or calling
833-WBAINYC.
That's 833-922-4692.
And throwing in
what you can
to help keep the lights on,
to help keep us all
doing what we're doing.
None of us are being paid.
This is a volunteer operation.
And,
you know,
this is,
this is the only reason
it happens.
It's because of you.
It's because of your help.
That's right.
Go ahead,
Alex.
One of the things
I want to
echo here,
too,
is that,
you know,
this was a special one,
a special hope conference
for me.
That is because
I got to do a lot of things
that I didn't ordinarily do.
And,
and one of those things
was to,
to MC
a lot of the talks.
And that was
very sadly
because our,
our friend Greg
couldn't make it
over to,
to New York.
Greg Newby,
who usually
is,
is over there
and,
and I'm seeing a lot
of the talks.
So I stepped in
and helped him.
And I'll tell you,
I had a hell of a lot
of fun doing that.
It was really,
I think it just made
the weekend a lot,
a lot different to me
from any other hope
from the other 15 of them.
And I got to introduce
talks from Joseph Cox
about the FBI
sting operation
where they ran
and basically took over
a massive encrypted
telephone network.
And he told that story
that was like
just such an awesome
and riveting story.
And then that went
right into
introducing
another friend of mine,
Emma Best,
from the
Distributed Denial of Secrets
who talked about
the co-option
of hackers
by intelligence agents
and government
and other government agents
in particular.
And,
and why the hacker community
should not be
so easily led astray
by the government
to do things
that the government wants
that are not necessarily
in our interest.
And then that led
right into
another just absolutely
amazing
and really riveting talk
which was by
John Kiriakou.
And he and I
didn't know each other
beforehand
but it turns out
that John Kiriakou
who was a very
high-ranking
CIA official
who then became
a whistleblower.
Well,
he and I actually
wound up,
we were
at CIA
at the same time.
We knew a lot
of the same people
and he told me
before the talk
that he had
written
a very unflattering
obituary
of my former boss
when he passed away.
So,
it was one of these
crazy things
and his talk
was just,
I think,
extraordinary.
I'd never heard
anything like it.
He had no slides.
He was just using
the power of his words
to convey
an incredible story,
an incredible journey
and I think
the entire
audience there
in Merillac,
which was,
I think,
one of the largest
auditoriums in Hope
was just completely
riveted to that screen.
So,
I had a great time
doing that.
That was different
for me.
Sadly,
I had to leave
early on Sunday
though because
I didn't see
the ice talk
and I didn't get
to watch
the closing ceremony.
So,
I wanted to ask you
about that,
Emmanuel.
How was the
closing ceremony?
Well,
you mentioned
our friend Greg
and it was
quite emotional
because as people
may not know,
but of course
if you attend
to Hope,
you do know now
that Greg is
battling pancreatic
cancer and
it's just
a gut shot
for all of us
to have something
like that happen,
to have somebody
that is such
a vital part
of the organization,
of this program
on many occasions
of the hacker community,
to have somebody
go from being
completely healthy
to that
so quickly.
And,
it just,
it also makes you
realize how tight
this community can be.
because he was
part of the
closing ceremonies
and the entire crowd
made it clear
that he was
in their thoughts
and I think
he felt
really good about that.
But,
I'm sure
we'll have him on.
I'm sure
we'll talk to him
and wish him
all the best.
We had another talk
that was
kind of surprising,
kind of controversial.
In fact,
many of our talks
are controversial,
obviously,
at hacker conferences.
But this one
had somebody
who was formerly
from Doge.
And,
you know,
there are people
who think that
you shouldn't ever
have anybody
who is ever
affiliated with Doge on,
but what better way
to find out
some things
that maybe
Doge doesn't
want you to know?
Turns out
this guy...
Okay,
I don't know who that is,
but don't do that again.
Turns out
this guy
still seems
to have
some allegiance
with
Doge
just insofar
as
defending them,
defending what
they stood for.
Now,
the way this talk
was put together
with...
We had
a journalist,
Adam Klassfeld,
speaking
with the
former
Doge
engineer
name of
Saeed
LaVinja,
is I believe
the way
to pronounce it.
I'm just going to
play an excerpt
from that
because it really
was fascinating
and a lot
of people
seem to get
something out of it.
What was your
understanding
of who
Amy Gleeson
was in the chain?
Well,
she was like
the acting head
of USDS,
right?
So the EOs
explicitly sort of
refer to that
position.
But she wasn't
really involved
in any of the
Doge,
like the sort
of Trump,
Doge,
Elon stuff.
One of the
reasons that I
ask,
there's,
you know,
my background
I mentioned,
I'm a legal
journalist,
and there are
a couple of
live cases
going on right
now that go
to the
appointments clause,
which is
basically the
constitutional mandates
of how an
agency is created,
how someone
heads an
agency,
and a question
that has come
up and legal
journalists have
asked this
question over
and over
again,
who is the
administrator of
Doge,
and who
during your
time would
have been
the boss?
Well,
there's no
boss.
I mean,
you are,
I was working
as senior
advisor,
chief of staff
in VA,
and I was
asked to
help the
agency execute
the EOs
that Trump
signed.
But your
understanding
of who you
reported to?
Like,
what does
reported,
what does
that mean?
No one,
no one,
like,
I'm not,
like,
the federal
government is
very interesting
because,
like,
in a typical
company,
you have,
like,
a manager,
but in the,
in the,
kind of the
context of,
of the U.S.
federal government,
it's actually
incredibly flat,
like,
there's,
because it,
really,
Congress defines
statutory roles,
but I was
an advisor
to the chief
of staff,
right?
So,
like,
if I,
you know,
if I had a
boss,
it was the,
it was the
chief of staff
of the
Department of
Veterans Affairs,
like,
if he wanted
to,
if he said,
you can't do
this,
or you should
do this,
like,
that's my
job,
to help him
run the
org,
right?
Got it.
But,
and he was
nominated,
I believe,
appointed by
Trump.
Right.
So,
I think,
you know,
what you're
saying,
and what
is often
the kind
of live
issue being
litigated here
in a couple
of these
cases is
there's a
presentation of
Doge of,
oh,
we're just
advisors.
Then there's
the perception
of Doge
that Elon
Musk was in
the White
House,
he tweets
out CFPB
RIP,
and then the
Consumer
Financial
Protection
Bureau is,
they try to
shut it
down.
And it's a
kind of
question of,
I think he
was just
being a
whistleblower
in that
context.
What's that?
He's just a
whistleblower.
That Elon
Musk is.
Well,
if he's
saying it's
CFPB
RIP,
right,
he's just
sharing
private
information
with the
public.
That he
wasn't,
at that
point,
you're saying
that he
wasn't having
a role
in shutting
it down?
No,
correct,
yeah.
That he
had a
similar
comment,
I'm trying
to,
he said
with USAID,
we're in
the process,
we're in
the process
of shutting
down USAID.
Yeah,
the royal
we,
like Trump
and Marco
Rubio and
Russ Vaught.
So,
from your
vantage point,
this was
just Elon
Musk informing
the public.
Well,
I mean,
in political
theory,
you have
the concept
of scapegoats,
right,
like Rene
Girard likes
to talk about,
and I
think Doge
is like
the perfect
scapegoat
because like
at the end
of the day,
like who's
in charge,
like Trump
and the
secretaries
of each
agency.
And if Doge,
like you know
the meme
where like
someone's
like getting
like,
you know,
all these
arrows are
hitting somebody
and like
there's
someone
like defending
them.
That's like
Elon,
like taking
all the
heat,
right?
I don't know
why he was
so interested
in doing
that.
That's just,
it's kind of
like what goes
back to why
he called it Doge.
I think
he likes
being the
center of
attention
and he likes
like the
sort of
like the
conflict
of that,
which most
people do
not like.
But yeah,
I think USAID
was going to
get shut down
no matter
what and
part of
Project 2025
or whatnot.
And Doge
was happy
to take
the credit
and Trump
was obviously
happy to
let them.
So kind of
I think
genius like
political
strategy by
the Trump
admin.
And by
the media
for,
by the way,
supporting it
completely.
They've done
a very good
job of like
making Doge
feel super
powerful even
though we
have literally
zero authority
to do anything
besides be an
advisory body.
Which is why
the lawsuits
won't go
anywhere,
why none
of the people
doing the
lawsuits have
ever asked
me who
was on the
record of
saying all
these things
to like do
an affidavit
or anything.
No one really
cares.
No one really
believes that
there's a
problem here.
I mean,
there is a
problem,
but like the
people in power
aren't really
willing to do
much about it.
There is a
lot there
just in that
five minute
clip.
Basically,
this guy,
first of all,
he is referring
to himself as
being part of
Doge still
to this day,
even though he
was fired
from Doge.
But to say
that he
doesn't report
to anybody,
who he didn't
report to
anybody,
didn't really
have a boss.
People pretty
much were
doing what
they wanted
to do in
that organization
and that
those in
high power
didn't really
care what
was going
on.
I think
what this
talk,
this Doge
talk,
which basically
had this guy
being interviewed
by Adam
Krasfeld,
a renowned
journalist,
it's an
hour of
slow social
engineering,
where this
guy is revealing
things that
ordinarily I
don't think he
would think
is a good
idea to
reveal.
But with a
skilled reporter
just basically
chipping away
at some of
the things
that this
guy is saying
and depending
on his own
arrogance
to come back
and clarify
certain remarks,
I think
a lot is
here,
a lot is
revealed and
I hope we
study this,
I hope we
look at what
is actually
being said.
What do you
guys think?
I could jump
in there and
say I think a
lot of what
he was talking
about on the
record there
with respect to
the appointments
clause and
the lack of
legal authority
for Doge to
do anything
except be an
advisory body
was really
right on and
it could be
something that
if the right
lawyers were
smart enough to
latch on to
this conversation
could actually
help to
augment some
of the ongoing
lawsuits that
allege that
Doge has been
unlawfully
bypassing
constitutional
safeguards and
the Trump
administration has
been engaging
in massive
amounts of
executive overreach
and this is
quite literally
from the horse's
mouth.
So I think
that the
implications of
that particular
talk could be
felt much, I
think, for
quite a long
time.
I think that
there could be
tremors coming
from that talk
for quite a
while because
there was a lot
of rather
important information
I think that
came out.
Rob?
Yeah, I also
think it's an
important conversation
to have had
because even
if you don't
agree with the
things this
person is
saying, it
is very
important to
know what
he's saying
because what
he's saying
is what
they're thinking
behind the
scenes of
the thing
that perhaps
is worth
fighting against,
is worth
pointing out
how ridiculous
the fact of
it is.
Information is
light, information
is power, and
information, even
from somebody
who's talking a
load of crap, can
be very, very
helpful and
useful in making
things better.
Yeah, and
you know, it's
true what they
say, that
sunlight is the
best disinfectant,
so having the
opportunity, and
it appears that
this guy was so
excited to have
the opportunity to
just spell this
line of just
utter hogwash.
I am sorry, but
if you don't, like,
if you're going to
say with your whole
chest, oh yeah, he's
a whistleblower, it
helps to know what
a whistleblower is.
Yeah, Elon Musk is
a whistleblower, that
resonated, that was
something.
I just, I almost
didn't hear what
came after it, because
I was so taken
aback by that.
If you're going to
say something like
that with your
whole chest, know
what you're saying.
I think that this
is a lot of the
reality television
ification of so much
of our culture, and
now it has gotten
to the highest
offices in the
land, but also if
you're in a
position and you
don't know who
you're reporting
to, you were
probably not a
great employee,
claims of
transparency aside.
Or the
organization was
not a great
organization.
I think that's a
lot more likely
there.
Kyle, you were
tasked with asking
questions that came
in from the
internet, so you
actually got to
face off directly
with a former
Doge person, and
probably a present
Doge person, too,
from the way he was
speaking.
What did that feel
like?
Did you feel like
you were coming up
to the face of
darkness or something?
Just, I mean,
wow.
That's a very good
question.
It was a new
position, new task
that I had taken
on, and I will
say there were a
lot of questions
that we didn't
get to, that we
wanted to get to,
and when I was
looking to my
left at the
microphone, there
were like 10
people lined up.
It just seemed like
a huge amount of
interest in doing
people doing their
own clarification
and follow-up
questions, but it
was very odd.
I want to actually
hear a bit, or I'll
definitely go back
and watch more of
the beginning part of
that, because I
hadn't heard some
of those other
insights that the
interviewer had
drawn out of the
speaker.
So, for me, it
was just, it was
very weird to have
this person give
me a one-word
answer for
something.
It felt like a
cop-out or something,
and they seemed a
little bit jaded
and were really
taking a long time
to not really give
much granular
insight, and so we
didn't really get the
answers we wanted.
I think everybody
was left a little bit
unsatisfied in one
way or another with
what was said, but
there were things
between the lines, I
think, that a lot of
people noticed.
And, yeah, to
just, yeah, some
of it, it just
wasn't, I was left
unsatisfied with some
of the answers that I
got, at least to the
questions that I was
fielding from our
virtual attendees, but
we wanted to take
some time and try to
get to it, and there
was just, it, I
think, was said
afterwards, this could
have been a much
longer talk, we
should have maybe
accommodated, had we
more time, we
probably would have
had even more
interesting findings
in it, but it's
what we could do, we
did our part to
learn more about
this person's
experience, and I'm
really proud of
people taking it
on and coming up
with insight to
try to have this
person think about
a little bit more
about their role,
but it was quite
telling.
Well, I was very
impressed with the
audience just
listening.
in fact, he even
thanked them for
listening, but I
think it speaks
more to just how
people are willing
to hear something
that might be really
horrible sounding to
them, but at least
let it be said so
that there is
something to
counter, something
to debate, and I
think that's what
happened here.
I wish it could have
gone for longer, I
really do.
There was no way
to know just how
talkative this guy
would be.
Turned out he was
quite talkative, but I
think what was said
in the time that was
allocated certainly is
significant, and I
think it'll evoke a lot
more questions.
Yeah, I hope people do
ask some more questions,
and just as we uncover
more about this agency
or non-agency, I don't
even think we got a good
answer on that, but it
would be nice.
It felt like the
appearance was going
to be revealing, but
no one really heard a
lot of contrition.
There were a lot of
excuses.
I heard no contrition
whatsoever.
Yeah.
I really, I mean, I
didn't listen to the
whole thing closely, but
I really didn't hear
any.
Alex, any other
thoughts on this?
And also, I wanted to
ask you about Harper
Reid, too.
Yeah, I mean, I
sadly, I didn't catch
the entirety of the
doge talk.
I caught the tail end
of it.
So, you know, a lot
of this has been news
that's filtered back to
me after the conference,
and I didn't catch the
entirety of it because I
was engrossed in
conversation with so
many other attendees.
Kind of almost every
time I would enter a
room or exit a room,
there was somebody there
that was interesting
and with whom I
wanted to carry on a
conversation.
So that was why I
didn't see the entirety
of it.
But, yeah, I think this
one's going to reverberate
for a while.
I think that there's
going to be coverage
about it.
I think this one was
going to be, I think,
a really important
talk and probably one
of the talks that
we'll look back on in
10 years at Hope 26,
I think, at that point,
and say, wow, that was
pretty incredible.
How do we pull this
off?
I mean, quite frankly,
I think there's a lot
about Hope that we
look back at later on
and say, oh, my God,
how do we pull that
off?
I think this is going
to be one of those
for sure.
And you want me to
talk a little bit
about Harper Reid?
Well, in less than a
minute, yes.
And then Rob has some
closing remarks.
Go ahead.
I mean, this is a guy
who was the CTO of the
Obama campaign in 2012,
and he came and gave us
like an incredibly
inspirational talk
about, you know,
what he did and where
he was and what he's
up to.
And, you know,
this is a guy who's
like very squarely part
of the hacker culture.
It just mystifies me
that we didn't have him
on sooner.
Put it that way.
Over to you, Rob.
And I just want to give
a shout to the listeners
who showed up at the
Off the Hook AMA.
It's always great to get
the opportunity to chat
with you in real life,
hang out a bit.
And thank you all for
listening and supporting
us.
As always.
Yes, definitely.
It means so much to
actually have faces to,
you know, to connect to
as well.
So it's always great to
see people.
It's always great to
converse and share
experiences and answer
questions and just,
you know, enjoy each
other's company.
We're going to continue
talking on Channel 2600
on YouTube.
That happens at eight
o'clock, just a couple
of minutes from now.
And we will be back
next week.
I believe next week
we're doing a call-in
show on WBAI.
Someone correct me if
I'm wrong.
OK, we're set for that.
So that means there's
no overtime next week,
but there's an overtime
this week.
Again, eight o'clock
on Channel 2600
on YouTube.
We'll be back next
Wednesday, 7 p.m.
on WBAI for that
aforementioned call-in
show.
Until then, stay tuned
to what's going on
because, boy, it's
interesting and it's
relevant and you have
more power than you
think.
Above all, you're not
alone.
WBAI is here.
And please make sure we
stay here by supporting
Peace and Justice Radio.
Good night.
All right.
And welcome everybody to Off the Hook Overtime here on YouTube.
I'm here in YouTube land, I think, and Kyle, you made it as well?
Yeah, I'm finally my way.
All right.
Everybody, Rob, Gila, Alex, you're all in YouTube land?
Yeah, we do. We exist.
Okay, cool. And are we actually on YouTube?
I believe so. We're still, I think, waiting out the delay a little bit.
I have to ask because sometimes we do an entire show and none of it made it out to.
And we wonder why we got no calls.
Yeah, yeah.
Are we broadcasting? Because I'm not hearing any noise come from YouTube.
I'm not hearing any noise come from YouTube, but I, well, my computer's muted,
but we're getting word from the chat that things are working, so...
What does that mean? Are they lying to us? Are we, like, disconnected somehow?
Oh, no, there we are. Okay.
No, that was on my end.
All right.
I had my volume down on my browser.
Oh, you need the volume up, Rob. You have to have the volume up. That's important.
Jeez, technical, you know, these tiny details.
So, we just have a couple more minutes. I know, Alex, you have to run because you're in Sicily.
Yeah, I'm going to hang out for, you know, five, ten minutes and then...
People, for some reason, go to bed at eight o'clock at night there, so you're going to have to do that.
But tell us any other thoughts you have on Hope that you want to discuss,
maybe using the language of your choice or whatever.
Yeah, I guess I can use, you know, the set of dirty words.
But none of those dirty words come to mind in the context of Hope.
I don't know. Maybe motherfucker does.
I don't see how, Alex.
I realize just for the fact that you were able to do that because we're on the Internet.
But I don't see how that's appropriate to the weekend that we just had.
Well, yeah, there's no denying that, but aren't there other words you could use to also express that?
It was fucking fun.
You have children, you know, you're a lawyer.
You're in Sicily.
There are so many things that show you're better than that.
That's true, I guess, yeah.
But thankfully, they're all sleeping.
Yeah, my entire family is sleeping here,
so they'll have to go back and listen to the broadcast to see exactly how vulgar I was.
I think this was a special hope in many ways.
And I feel like I say that every time,
but this was the first one that comes on the heels of a Hope conference happening last year.
And now the difference is that, you know, a decision has been made from on high, presumably,
that this is going to be an annual thing.
And I think people are excited about that.
One of the things that I did as an emcee,
often, you know, before introducing a speaker and trying to warm up the room,
would be to ask people to raise their hand if this was their first Hope conference.
And it was extraordinary to me to see that usually around 40% to 50% of the room
before one of the major talks that I was introducing had happened were brand new Hope attendees.
So that means, you know, I think we're doing something right here.
And as much as we were concerned about not being able to get the word out,
the word has gotten out.
I think the word of mouth is particularly strong with respect to Hope.
And I think a lot of the words that people use when talking about Hope is the sense of community
and how it feels so much different from any of the other conferences that are out there
that focus on cybersecurity or technology.
I mean, this is not something that's vendor-driven, right?
There's vendors that hang out there, and they're all people working on cool projects
like Calix or NYC Mesh or something like that.
You know, these aren't people who are trying to scan your badge to get your information
so that they can send you some follow-up marketing material.
You know, these are people with whom you want to, you know, have a coffee,
talk a bit about what their projects are about.
And when you pass through the vendor area, you know, you see some really cool wares,
you see some cool T-shirts, you meet some cool people,
and you don't feel like you're harangued, and you don't feel like you're the target
of some kind of massive sales pitch.
So I think that, to me, I think is something that we have to maintain.
And in that maintenance, I think we're going to keep a sense of community
that keeps Hope completely different.
Well, I do have to speak to a little bit of that because there is one factor.
Obviously, a number of people weren't able to come because of travel issues,
because of the fear of coming to this country, which is, the fear is not absurd.
The fact that people are afraid is what's absurd and makes me super angry
because people should be able to, you know, to travel where they please
and not have to fear being detained just because we have psychos running things.
But that aside, yes, a very positive atmosphere.
So many people came up to me and said this was the best one yet.
The sobering reality is we need more people to come to these things.
If we don't have more people coming to these things, we can't do these things.
We really needed a couple of hundred more people to be there for this to be a slam dunk
where, of course, we're going to do it again.
I hope we can.
I hope we're able to make it work.
I can't say 100% for sure we will be able to do that.
We'll find out soon enough.
But it's a shame that attendance went down.
We knew attendance was down, but it's a shame that so many people,
especially in this country, weren't able to make it for one reason or another
because, as you've pointed out, those talks were great.
Those talks were incredible.
Controversial, riveting, and the environment, the campus is just such a perfect location
for what we do.
So much space to move around, a lot going on in the neighborhood as well.
So people who are hesitant, I understand hesitancy is something new, but we're hackers.
That's what we're supposed to be doing is trying new things.
So it definitely was a good event.
I would much rather we fall short with attendance and have a great event than have a mediocre
event that's crowded.
I would much rather that.
It's just a question of, well, we have to figure out how to make this work and continue doing
this because I think we've got something really good here.
I think there are just, you know, one thing that did not lag at all were the speaker submissions,
were the workshop submissions, people who wanted to present things.
That was enthusiastic as hell.
And that tells me that there are a lot of people out there that care.
And we also had more people virtually than we did before.
So that's good as well.
But we also want to have more people to talk to, you know, in person and the, you know,
listen to the people who came and hear their feedback and listen to what they say, good
or bad.
And let's, let's, let's make this thing grow.
If we're able to do this every year and this, as you mentioned, was the first time we
ever did it the year after doing it, you know, the previous year, we never did that
before.
Sometimes it would be three years, sometimes it'd be two years, but every year something
was always out of our reach.
Well, we've, we've gotten it refined to the point where with the ease of, of St. John's
and the, the skills that we've, we've picked up over the decades, we feel we're able to
do this and, um, not kill ourselves doing it and get more people involved.
That's the other thing to get more volunteers, more people to take on certain roles.
Uh, because you know, uh, the, the horrible situation that Greg is going through right
now, even with that, he was there on online, on the phone to answer questions, uh, to, um,
contact people and, um, you know, it, it, it just breaks my heart that, uh, he wasn't able
to be there in person and that he's going through this hell right now.
Um, but, um, I'm optimistic.
I feel like there is a good future for hope, but we have to really work together to make
that happen.
I, I could not agree more.
And you know how I like to disagree with you, but the, um, I, I, I do think, uh, you
know, just there was something missing from hope and it was Greg this year.
And, um, you know, and I'm so pleased to hear that he was part of the closing ceremony.
That's, that's pretty amazing.
I'm going to have to watch that.
I don't, I'm not sure if it's up on YouTube yet, but, um, when it is, I think we should
all give that a listen.
Took us about 20 minutes to figure out how to get the laptop plugged in.
But once we did that, it's every year, every year, it's something, some connector that we
don't have, it's, it's, it's look, not everybody knows everything.
Well, part of it, um, I want to see more of the things we enjoyed seeing and that Alex
pointed out as, um, that are emblematic of hope.
I want to see more projects.
I got, I got motivated just by seeing other people's projects to figure out what I'm, what
other things I'm doing when I'm not helping with, uh, pre-planning and, and coordinating
and stuff.
And that invigoration, that's, that's a great thing to take away and get, get going.
What are you doing?
What are your projects?
Do what you do best, but do it better.
Do it now and get active, get, um, help with what you're doing.
Get people excited about what you're doing.
What, um, if you want to start like a local club or, or collaborate with people on something
that maybe you do need help on, but other expertise coming in could really make it, uh, a standout
and important thing that is covered at an event.
Maybe the, the next time hope comes around.
Um, but that, um, craziness with things like AV or little, little details like that, we want
to like tighten up and have all of those things be as, um, as, uh, high a production value as
possible, certainly, but that is, um, that is kind of a, uh, a symptom of needing more,
uh, leadership in some of those roles, more expertise.
We want to be able to bring people in, get, um, more help on a lot of that things, a lot
of that stuff, uh, because things, uh, like that fall by the wayside when people aren't
trained up and we don't have someone, um, say that, that is, um, focusing just solely
on the pacing of, of, um, that really just, it's like five minutes between talks.
So that, that's actually really hard, uh, as far as production goes and we want to do
the best job we can.
And, um, when people are stretched thin and, um, as cool and wonderful as everything was,
I really feel, um, a lot of kind of not like, let's say nervous excitement.
I'm excited for what's possible and, and I know, um, we'll do our best to, to, uh, regroup
and, and come back just as strong and, and have something interesting in the future.
And I really hope everybody, um, that is interested can be on board and, and contribute to that
discussion going forward.
Uh, but I feel like we're in a little bit of a transitional period where this is, um,
something that, you know, there are a lot of questions and, and things that we're working
on, uh, and a lot of different dynamics are changing and that, that goes on, that doesn't
go on in a vacuum.
Like hope feels that.
And a lot of people's lives that are being effective, a lot of people have things going
on that, um, energy that people have to expend elsewhere.
It, you know, hope is one of the first things that goes, you know, that's what happens with
volunteer organizations.
So all I'm saying is, um, as, as happy as we are, we want to make sure that we're doing
everything we can to sustain ourselves, to keep interest and excitement up.
And if you can contribute, do some cool stuff, do some cool hacking and, uh, share about it
because we'll do our best to cover, uh, what you are doing if it isn't necessarily directly
volunteering, but we're open to all of it and we want to see more of it.
That's how I felt.
Yeah.
And I'm, I'll make one final comment here about hope.
And I, and I think a difference about this year and then I'll sign off and head back to
bed, uh, you guys.
But, um, Kyle mentioned that this issue of really having five minutes between speakers
and then getting them up on stage and how that was very difficult to do from a logistical
standpoint, uh, if there were any hiccups there for some of the talks, that part was
probably partly my fault and I'm seeing some of these talks because we had so many extraordinary
questions coming in, not just from people on the floor, but from the virtual attendees.
And I think we should focus on that for a second.
The virtual attendees were pretty awesome this year.
And in emceeing, I had to be inside the matrix chat rooms for each one of these individual
speaker sessions.
And I was amazed at the, uh, at, at the incisive questions that were coming from a lot of the
virtual attendees that I then had the privilege of going up to the microphone and relaying over
to the speakers themselves.
And there was just a great and very healthy amount of participation from the virtual attendees.
I hope that we carry on that aspect of the conference, especially in this fraught world
where travel to the United States may be more and more difficult over the next couple of
years.
And the virtual attendees, I think really added a layer to the conference that we hadn't really
seen since the 2020 hope when the entirety of the conference was virtual.
So I think we owe them a round of applause or some kind of kudos or accolades rather.
And, um, uh, you know, for bringing what they brought to the conference in a very different
way this year.
So good for them.
Uh, I I'd like to add to that.
I heard a lot about, um, the hope 2020 event in some of people's experience.
And I, I want everyone to understand that was all another transformational point for us because
we, um, really had to embrace different technologies, things that we tools that we weren't really
necessarily used to.
And we've, uh, to some degree or another integrated them pretty well as something that is, uh,
used and now sort of expected at our event.
Are you talking about the pandemic hitting in 2020 when we had a conference schedule?
Yes, I'm talking about hope, the hope 2020 event, uh, itself, not necessarily hope or that
year in general.
So all of those tools we have, uh, taken to trying to reuse, to, um, expand the use, or
at least get better at, um, reintegrating them, uh, each year.
And, uh, and hopefully again, with trying to do event annual events, we'll, um, get into
a really good, uh, workflow as far as, um, going back and resetting things and starting,
uh, a new and yeah, I mean, we've had to do that with some of our organizational stuff
and, and that's hard enough with people rebuilding teams and stuff like that, but definitely infrastructure
that we adopted from then, um, has stayed with us.
And I think it does, it does, um, enhance the experience overall, especially for those
that want to participate, but they, for one reason or another, cannot make it.
And by having those systems there in this circumstance, as unfortunate as it is, uh, but we, we knew
that it was sort of, um, kind of inconsiderate to be asking people in some certain situations
to try to travel so that having that option really, um, at least made it something that
was accessible for people that really shouldn't, uh, take the risk to be, uh, in person.
So I'm really glad for those things being there.
And that's part of building more and having, uh, more, more, um, expertise on the backend
or in the operational side of, uh, planning and producing an event like this.
So, um, we, we need to bring in more people that understand those systems so that they work
as well as, uh, possible.
Go ahead, Alex.
Yeah.
I, I just want to say, uh, to, to you both and to everybody who was associated with hope,
I think congratulations on really what was a great conference, another, I think wildly
successful one.
And, um, and, and I see people in the chat already saying that they're planning on, on
attending hope 17 next year.
So I think, um, I think we've inspired a lot of people and I think changed a lot of lives
and we have to focus on that and also take on board all the criticisms about how we can
do this better next year.
So I'm looking forward to that and with that, I'm going to sign off and go back to bed.
So congrats to you all.
This was such a great deal of fun.
I would say, uh, uh, of, uh, amazing fucking amount of fun to use another one of the dirty
words.
Can't it's the same one.
You keep using the same dirty word, at least use a different one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh boy.
You don't know any others, do you?
Um, well, I, I know all seven, you know what?
You're in Sicily.
That's a great place to learn more.
That's right.
You got it.
All right.
So, um, well, enjoy Sicily, a place I have never been and would like to go one day.
You know, I, I highly, highly recommend it.
I've been here many times and still have family here too.
So, um, I will, uh, hopefully see you guys in person again before you know it, but I'm
going to sign off and go to bed and, um, and I'll let you guys take some phone calls.
So congrats.
See you all soon.
And thank you, Alex.
Thank you for everything, everything you did at Hope.
And, uh, we will see you again soon.
Only a pleasure.
Talk to you all soon.
Bye.
So, um, that leaves us with, uh, Rob, Gila, me and Kyle and, uh, all the listeners.
And we're going to open up the phone lines.
Uh, the phone number, um, is 802-321-4.
It's been a while.
So, uh, I wasn't here last week, so I, I, I, I wiped my memory.
802-321-4-225.
Do I got that right?
That's correct.
Okay.
802-321-HACK is our phone number.
And the phone line is active now.
So, wow.
Literally two seconds after it becomes activated, it rings.
That's amazing.
Um, do we have a, uh, a call?
Okay.
It's ringing in a weird way.
That's, uh, that's something.
Okay.
And, you know, uh, I have to point out, um, just as a, a caution to people, uh, that it's
raining, uh, and we have a Verizon, uh, a copper line, uh, and those two things together
sometimes result in horrible sounds and hums and buzzes and people not being able to understand
each other, cross lines, confusion, hostility, anger.
So just be prepared for all of that, um, because it's raining.
Uh, and I'm sorry.
All right.
Let's see who we have.
Uh, look, that's what I'm talking about.
You see, you know, maybe you want to touch something, Kyle, and make that hum go away
if that's possible on our end.
Um, all right.
Well, caller, are you there?
Is anybody...
I still hear the hum.
Yeah, that's a hum there.
All right.
Uh, it's a humdinger, one might say.
Uh, but that this could be because of the rain or it could be because of, uh, well, we can
hear you.
We can hear you.
And it's possible that the recording is not picking up the hum.
So why don't you tell us what's on your mind?
Well, there's also an echo.
So I was being echoed before I got, uh, patched into the show.
Wait, is that a stick?
No, I don't hear an echo anymore.
I hear that.
But I was still plugging everything in.
And I don't hear a hum anymore.
So why don't, why don't we get to the, uh, to the heart of the matter here?
So what's, what's on your mind?
Well, first of all, my ID, this is Lou Ichu from our nation's capital, Washington, D.C.
Yes.
Now under, under federal control, I understand.
Oh, yeah.
It's, I see the, I see the helicopters, the government-owned helicopters from my, uh, backyard,
actually.
I see the police, the tops perusing downtown.
But you, you actually...
Yeah, you actually have National Guardsmen now as your police.
Is that how it's working now?
I believe so.
I'm not sure.
I was busy, uh, watching Hope, uh, to, and I kind of forgot, I don't understand the situation
exactly.
But I see them.
They're aimless.
They're looking for crime that isn't there.
They're just forced to be out there.
I don't think they're trained to be cops.
I mean, I, I, I've never been a National Guardsman, but I don't think it's the same training
as what policemen get.
And now they're policemen.
Okay.
Uh, so what, what, what else is on your mind?
I really think you should put more than one song as the, uh, uh, hold music between talks
on the stream, because it really gets annoying when you hear the same song.
Well, uh, the, the idea is to get you out of the room.
Okay.
And if it annoys you, then it's, it's serving that purpose because, you know, people have
to go to different rooms and you got to, you know, clear out space and, and things like
that.
But yeah, you know, we've done it before.
We've had different, different pieces.
Uh, but, uh, this time we had the same piece.
So we'll, we'll try something different next time.
Oh yeah.
If you want any people to leave the room, why don't you just play the brown note on loop?
Yeah.
You know, people file suit when you do that.
Um, it's been tried.
It's, we don't want to attack our audience.
We just want to prod them a little bit.
Well, then put different music for just for the stream so that people, the people watching
online don't have to suffer.
Well, you know, you could do something else, make a sandwich or, you know, go to the bathroom
or something.
That's kind of the idea as well to get you moving around a little bit.
Right.
Anything else?
Is that, is that all you got out of this weekend?
Uh, money.
Uh, let's see.
It wasn't, it wasn't normal.
There are lots of different, uh, different talks that are fascinating.
Uh, like the, let's see.
I'm just following up.
Um, oh yeah.
One I was, I thought was pretty interesting, but hasn't, uh, been mentioned here on the previous
show, uh, was the one about, uh, computational methods to make karaoke harder.
That was pretty interesting.
I, I missed, uh, most of that one, uh, because the hold music was playing over the speaker.
Somebody forgot to patch him in.
Yeah, we, we're aware of that problem and we're trying to get that rectified, uh, re-recorded
so that, uh, but that's the only talk that happened to, so we're happy that it didn't
happen to more.
But yeah, this is a perfect, it's a perfect example we're talking about when we say we
need more help because we were so short staffed that, that didn't get found for, I think,
13 minutes.
Well, hopefully it goes up on the YouTube promptly so I can listen back and see what this guy
was able to do because I don't, like I said, I only tuned in towards the tail end and it
was pretty interesting.
Like, he was able to take text from various sources on the internet and come up with a
combination, uh, combination of phrases that could fit, uh, certain types of songs.
And I believe it also worked, uh, in different languages, including Commander M, which is
pretty interesting.
Wow.
See, I didn't see that talk, but, uh, it's, I've, I've heard reports of it and it sounds
fascinating.
Right.
I've, I, I, I tried to come up with alternate lyrics for some well-known songs myself, so
that was, I thought that was a pretty, uh, interesting for one to me then since I was, I mean, that's
what I, essentially what I was trying to do with my human brain.
Ha ha.
Uh, what else?
Um, well, again, the whole music, gotta change it.
It really is annoying.
I did, um, I was the one, I did, uh, broadcast Hope XV last year on analog TV.
I just had my, I was lucky enough to get my modulator and I just, uh, hooked it up to
a cheap RF, Chinese RF amp and, uh, with a, should I mention, well, yes, I did use,
the proper notch filter to make sure not, uh, not putting any garbage out there on the
air, but it was fun.
It was fun trying to keep that up, uh, during the hottest days of the summer.
I can't tell you, uh, the various failures that have occurred, but I chose not to do it this
year because, well, well, first of all, it's only a watt, a watt and a half.
I don't even have a watt meter to know how much I'm putting out.
But second, again, it's analog.
I have no way to see, um, if people are actually benefiting from this, you know?
I've talked about this before, you know.
Well, you can't even, you wouldn't be able to tell if anybody was watching if it was digital
as well.
I mean, you know, it's, it's over the air.
Well, oh, uh, the, the architecture of TCP IP, you know, you send me, uh, I'm internet
in general, I believe you send me your, if you're looking at it, that gets locked, right?
You can, you send the server request for the, uh, data and you get it back.
So that request can be logged.
Therefore, you can know how many people are interacting.
Not if, not if they're watching over the air, not if they're, they're picking up a digital
signal.
I assume that's what you're referring to.
Oh, right.
I was talking about internet.
Okay.
But wait, you, uh, when you broadcast analog, uh, you're not doing that over the internet,
right?
Well, hope was, well, hope was being broadcast over the internet.
So I took the stream, the video stream from the internet and just rebroadcast it over analog
TV.
Hey, I have no way to know if anybody actually saw it.
That's the thing though.
Usually what the pirates do is that they'll give you a phone number, some way to, uh, reach
out.
And from there they can see how many people, uh, gauge what kind of interest, uh, is espoused
in the community.
Well, I mean, someone would have to have an analog TV, uh, without a digital converter and
just happen to be tuning to the frequency that you're broadcasting on.
Now here's the thing, all digital ATSC TVs are mandated by the government to also, uh,
be able to tune to NTSC, the analog standard.
So any digital TV that is capable of receiving digital signals also must receive NTSC, the
analog signal.
Okay.
Has that ever been done?
I've done it on an old Samsung TV.
I plugged my modulator, RF modulator into the TV and it told me instead of the, it told me
the signals analog, it was able to, I believe it was able to show me the signal strength
and such like that.
But it did show up, so I had no problems there.
Um, and I also tried it on a newer Samsung TV, one that you, one of the ones that you could
probably go to the store and get and it still, uh, allows, uh, and it knows how to decode
NTSC.
So it's not going away anytime soon.
The point is I didn't put any sort of feedback mechanism.
I didn't, uh, have time to try and figure out how to overlay graphics on the screen to
say, call this number and stuff like that.
Right.
It was very, it was very difficult for me and I also didn't, uh, have a lot of the equipment
and that's part of the reason I didn't, uh, attempt to do it.
Uh, again, I mean, I don't have access to the roof, so the antenna is just in the backyard,
so that's also hampering signal, uh, reception.
Well, it was a worthy effort the first time and at least you can say you did it.
Hey, hey, yeah, maybe I'll try it again in the future.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, maybe, I mean, I'll go, I'll, I'll, I'll be at home, you know, whenever I feel the
time is right, whenever I'm able to, I mean, it is a big commitment being from D.C.
You gotta invest all kinds of time, effort, money just to go, to get down to another city
for three days and watch this thing.
You just gotta get on a train.
That's all you gotta do.
In Amtrak, yeah, I'll be taking Amtrak for sure.
I'm pretty sure that's the, I think that's probably one of the cheapest ways to move
around in this country anyway, so.
Uh-huh, and fastest, too.
So hopefully we'll see you at a future hope and you can give a workshop on what you did
and maybe get other people to do it, too.
Yeah, um, okay, and about Rebel, who might, hopefully there's a, hopefully somebody gets
in before me, but.
Rebel was there, by the way, I, I, I greeted him a couple of times, but never actually had a
conversation with him.
I saw, I, I, I was listening to Hackers Got Talent by Jason Scott.
I always love the Jason Scott.
Oh, Jason Scott.
We didn't mention him.
Yeah, he is incredible.
Right, right, right.
I was, I always, uh, check out the Hackers Got Talent, um, for previous years as well.
They're always, it's always been interesting since its inception, but this is the second
time Rebel has presented his talent, the Hackers Got Talent.
Wow.
In this particular case, it was a phone song he made up when he was, I think he was born
this way, with the phones.
Well, I, I, I think I've heard this song before, too, because I remember this conversation where,
uh, Rebel presented something from his past, from his distant past.
And then there's the, and then there's these two other guys who did the Free Software song
by Richard Stallman.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Well, I'll have to look at this.
It sounds fascinating.
Join us now and free the software.
Hackers, hackers, you'll be free.
All right.
Okay, I think that's all I have to add.
Thank you, guys.
Well, I'm sorry I missed it, and thank you for, thank you for being a part of it, and
we'll talk to you next time.
All right, see you.
Take care.
And Rob, you have something.
Yeah, um, Hackers Got Talent was fantastic, as, uh, as always.
Gillette and I had the great pleasure of being asked to be judges there, um, by Kusanagi,
who, uh, we had on last week's program.
And Jason Scott, uh, you know, emceed and, uh, and wrangled the whole thing, and it was
a joy.
Yeah, Rebel, Rebel sang a song, uh, a lot of, a couple of people juggled, um, people made
noises, people did all sorts of things.
Someone did martial arts.
I was out, uh, actually, I was over at the Emerald Pub, um, you know, just meeting people.
I, you know, I, I, I had a beer or two, but I, I went over there, um, we, we brought
the 2600 van and, and, and talked to some of the frack people who were giving out frack
magazines.
They were awesome.
They were amazing.
They made the whole thing so much fun.
Uh, but at some point, I looked at my phone to see how Hackers Got Talent was doing, and
I saw somebody juggling.
I said, boy, this is the epitome of talent right there.
Someone juggling on my phone.
And, and it just, it was, it was awesome.
There was a really lovely moment, actually.
Um, someone had signed up at actually hadn't even signed up, came at the last minute and
volunteered and said, I would like to juggle.
Does anybody have anything I can juggle?
And someone else who had signed up to juggle and had juggling balls in their backpack, just
threw them up at the stage.
So, of course, I mean, didn't throw the, walked up to the stage and handed them off to the
juggler, but the fact that, you know, everybody's willing to share and cooperate and it was,
it was a really lovely community moment.
Yeah.
We had two jugglers with one, uh, set of balls between them and the, uh, the joy of that
too is, oh, no, people, oh, no, no, no, no, but they weren't struggling at the same
time, right?
They were juggling separately.
No, no, but, uh, but yeah.
And the fact that somebody who had signed up to juggle, um, enabled somebody to come up
and compete directly with them, um, is just, uh, in keeping with the spirit of the whole
thing, it was a lot of fun.
It was, uh, it was, it was, it was a highlight.
Um, yes.
And if you haven't, if you didn't see it live when you have the opportunity, we encourage
you absolutely to do so and, um, check out our winner and congratulations to the winner
of hackers got talent who reproduced noises.
He makes for his children.
Yes.
A very, a very nice man called Theodore.
Okay.
Well, that's a weird description, but it sounds fascinating nonetheless.
And, uh, uh, uh, yeah, the videos will be out, uh, you know, some production needs to
be done on them, obviously smooth out the rough edges.
Uh, and we have to recover still, you know, I'm still confused as to when I'm supposed
to be asleep and when I'm supposed to be awake.
It's, it's, it's, uh, you know, I love these weekends, but boy, they take a toll.
Um, Emmanuel, I do have a question though.
Do the live streams, um, the live streams are still extant, right?
On YouTube.
I believe so.
I believe.
So if somebody wanted to, they could pull up the Marilac live stream from Saturday and
just scan right through the first 12 hours.
They'd have to find the actual URL, but yes, I believe it's still there.
Just, just search for Marilac or hope or something like that and you'll get it, but you'll get it.
You'll get a much more, um, um, uh, polished version, uh, that, that won't have, like I
said, rough edges around it.
Uh, and that takes a little bit of time to, uh, to put together, but, uh, we're working
on it.
We're excited.
Um, also wanted to say hello, 40 minutes in to the 50 ish people who are with us right
now on YouTube.
Um, and especially wanted to, first of all, um, shout out our friend, Tim in Connecticut
who announced that he pre-purchased the flash drive at the 2600 store because no one can
physically be at all the talks at the same time.
Very true.
So he's already excited to get caught up.
Um, TL Jordan who got to their first workshop and got their technician's license in a workshop
at Hope.
Awesome.
Congrats.
Very exciting.
Um, and yeah, attendees, people talking about it.
Um, the weather in New York this weekend was a little sticky, a little humid, not as bad
as Las Vegas.
Um, so it was, it was, it was good on Friday and Saturday, but Sunday it started to get oppressive,
but that's, you know, again, motivation to move.
Um, we also got stuck in a rainstorm, um, which is great fun.
I was carrying a small bag, which would not fit an umbrella.
Um, whereas, you know, the person I carried to work today had two umbrellas in it.
The, I have a Mary Poppins bag.
What can I say?
Well, I think you've said enough, but, um, let's, um, go to the phone call who's been
waiting patiently.
We have a phone call.
Okay.
Let's see who's here.
Good evening.
You're on overtime.
Go ahead.
Yes.
I enjoyed hope as always.
Hi rebel.
How are you?
You know, I, I, I, I wasn't very social because I was moving very fast, but it sounds, it
looked like you were busy.
Of course.
Yeah.
You, you looked like you were having a lot of fun.
You had an entourage with you too.
Well, you know, and they couldn't cut.
They wanted to come, but it was too expensive and it was just, well, wait, I met them at the
conference.
What do you mean?
They wanted to come.
They were at the conference.
No, they were, they were, no, this was before the conference on Friday, that Friday afternoon
or this, was it Thursday night or?
Well, Friday was the conference.
So it must've been Thursday.
Okay.
So they, they actually didn't enter the conference.
They were, uh, just escorting you.
Well, they don't pay $250.
Well, they could have paid $225 if they got it in advance.
That's still too much.
It's not.
I mean, it's, it's what it costs.
I mean, look at any conference.
That's, that's what they charge.
Because, you know, you got to pay a lot of bills.
Um, I enjoyed Hackers Got Talent and, you know, I, I didn't just enjoy, you know, I didn't
really know what to do with Hackers, but I just, you know, so, you know, people are acting
silly and...
Are there two people talking at once?
Sounds like there's two people talking at once.
Okay.
Well, we'll get to you in a second.
No, I'm totally...
We'll get to who in a second.
Yeah, there were people...
I need to know what I'm signing up for here, Rebel.
You can't just, like, spring surprises on me.
You know I don't like that.
Um, yeah, I didn't, I mean, I didn't really want to...
I mean, you know how I sometimes make a, you know...
I just don't like a fit for myself, but...
Oh, Rebel, I would never say that, and you shouldn't say that either.
No, I mean, you know how...
I mean, people were acting the way they, you know...
If people were acting silly, I didn't feel bad about being silly.
And then I got applauded.
I mean, I really, I...
You know, people were happy with it.
They were applauding.
They were, you know...
Silly people are what make the world what it is, okay?
You know, Winston Churchill, extremely silly person, but he got a lot done.
Right.
And I, and I...
But no, it wasn't for the prizes.
You know, I wasn't, you know, I didn't make second play, but, you know, okay, it was just
everyone having fun.
Mm-hmm.
That's true.
And I, I hope you did have fun as well.
It looked like you were having a blast.
Yeah, I was, and I was very, and I mean, I walked into talks that were kind of interesting,
and I just, you know, didn't plan on going to them, and I just, you know, like the, the
hacking, the wireless networks, they're very interesting.
And, you know, some of the talks go a little fast, and they're a little, you know, you
know, they get fast-paced, and you kind of got to get a grasp on, you know what I mean?
Like, they talk technical, and...
Sure.
Yeah, everyone's at a different level, and you kind of have to, you have to adjust every
time you walk into a room, because it might be, you know, faster than your pace, slower
than your pace.
And the same thing goes for workshops as well.
All right, and in the network, where there's some questions there, and they were telling
you how things work, and, you know, it's, you know, it's interesting.
Wow.
Okay, and any, any closing remarks before we move on to other calls?
No.
All right, well, let's take a next listen.
Well, good evening.
You're on off the hook over time.
Yeah, that's not how it works, Rebel, but it's, it's great to hear, hear your voice,
and also, I'm thrilled that you had a good time.
And, uh...
No, I'm pretending you're next listen to a phone call.
Yes, well, you don't need a phone to pretend that.
Um, and we'll, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll talk to you certainly before the next, uh, conference,
and hopefully we will see you at the next conference.
We'll pat you in next time.
I'm sorry, Kyle, you were not up.
Go ahead, say it again.
Yeah, but we'll pat you in next time, Rebel, when, when we have the phone lines, uh, worked
on.
We're actually, uh, a technician's on the way right now.
Is that what they said?
Yeah.
You believe that?
Well, the window is, like, between now and, uh...
In June.
Yeah, I don't think, uh, we're gonna see Verizon anytime soon.
Uh, 802-3214-225 is our telephone number.
If you are at Hope, we'd like to hear from you because, uh, we have something in common
because we were all at Hope.
And it's good when people have something in common and can talk on the telephone about
that.
Gila has something to contribute.
Go ahead, Gila.
Yes.
So, uh, Lou Ray Chu has a question that they forgot to ask on the phone, but is very kindly
asking it in the chat and not calling us back.
Thank you very much.
Um, the question is, is Hope still gonna have a unique name for every year, or are they
all gonna be called Hope underscore the number?
Well, okay, first of all, it's the first time we did that, so to assume that we're gonna
just keep that a format is, uh, well, it's presumptuous, for one thing.
You know, when we had H2K, uh, then we did H2K2, uh, because nobody saw that coming.
Everyone thought the next one was gonna be H2K4, but of course, the next one was the
fifth Hope, so, so, no, we never do what's expected of us, uh, but we are always open
to suggestion and, um, ideas, and, you know, uh, there's only so many words, so please help
us come up with other ideas for, for, for Hopes.
Uh, the 17th one, what's that gonna be called?
I don't know.
I don't know.
It's, it's gonna be in 2026, presumably.
Uh, so we'll, we'll have to see.
Um, but please, put your thinking caps on now, and, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll come up
with something together.
This is a perfect example of how we need more people to help us, because you can't have the
same people figuring it all out every time.
It's gotta, um, it's, it's gotta move.
It's gotta change.
And we have a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on overtime.
Go ahead.
Uh, yes, hi.
I just wanted to ask a quick question.
Um, is there a way, uh, to see, like, a whole discussions online?
Is there a way to see it now?
Like, is it on your website or anything like that?
It's not on our website.
I, I understand it's somewhere out there on the internet.
You're talking about the Hope Conference, right?
Yeah, like the conference.
You don't, you don't upload it on your website after the conference?
Uh, we don't, but we will.
I mean, it'll, it'll be on this channel.
It'll be on YouTube, uh, uh, in, in, uh, a bit.
Uh, we're doing all the, uh, editing and, and, uh, you know, um, uh, getting the titles
right and things like that.
But there is a rough cut out there.
I just don't have the address handy.
Uh, but if you search for it, you'll probably find it.
Just search for St. John's Hope 2025 and it should come right up.
Oh, okay.
I'll do that.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you.
That was my question.
Thank you.
Take care.
Uh, yeah, it's always good to be able to, uh, uh, to, uh, see these things, uh, in, in
the future.
And of course we have all of the conferences from, from the first one.
Um, in fact, we, we, we actually had that at this conference.
We had a whole bunch of flash drives, uh, that people could buy, uh, from the first
Hope in 1994 up until last year's Hope.
And you, we could even, um, uh, pre-register for the next one when it comes out and it'll,
it'll be, it'll be mailed to you.
Yes, Rob.
So for folks looking for the rough cuts of the Hope Talks, um, you can find them on
YouTube.
If you go to the channel of the internet society, who are the, uh, team that, uh, collaborates
with us to get things recorded and posted and everything.
So, um, if you go to their channel, which is iSocLive, that's I-S-O-C-Live on YouTube,
um, they have, uh, an area there called Past Live Streams and you can see the long videos
that are each day's talks in each, uh, in each, uh, room.
So like eight hours, nine hours, 10 hour long talks, a couple of 12 hour long ones, uh, videos
that you will have to scan around and find the talks you want.
Um, you can go to hope.net to see the schedule and maybe figure it out.
Uh, where in the video you want to be.
But, um, so those are the rough cuts.
It's, yeah, it's rough.
It's not easy to, to maneuver.
Uh, but if that's what you need now, that's how to get it.
And by the way, uh, iSocLive is not exactly the same as internet society.
And I don't even know how to explain that, but it's, um, uh, it gets very complex on all
levels.
Uh, so we're trying to make it simple.
We're trying to make it digestible and, uh, we will, we always do.
Uh, so Kyle, do we have another phone call?
Uh, you were doing a bunch of wiring just now.
Can you just, uh, test the dial tone?
Well, you have the phone.
Yeah, look at that.
Sounds good.
Is that okay?
Can you hit a three?
Yeah, it sounds good.
That sounds good.
Yeah, I'm working on it.
We're going to get this, uh...
No, I think you're fine.
The wiring of dialed has not been recognized.
Wait, it's a three.
What do you mean it hasn't been recognized?
What's wrong with her?
What's, uh, that's, uh, that's the phone lady.
She, of course, you should recognize a three.
What'd you hit this time?
That was another three?
No, it was a two.
A two.
She might recognize a two, not a three.
The number you have dialed has not been recognized.
What's wrong?
She's in the wrong position.
I mean, anybody else should be doing this.
All right, 802-321-4225 is our phone number.
If you've been at Hope, please give us a call and, um, tell us your experiences.
Should I try the other, uh, hybrid?
No, I think it's fine, Kyle.
I don't think...
I'm having fun experimenting.
Well, yeah, but, you know, the hum is not bad.
It's, uh...
It's just, I have a little more free time now, so...
Yes, that's true.
We all have some free time.
I've been meaning to get to the phones here.
Like, we want to do a little, uh, maintenance, do a little, uh, you know, rehab, a little...
Well, there's always these things that you've neglected when, uh, preparing for a conference like this.
So, I'm actually...
That's exactly what I'm...
I'm playing catch-up now, so...
That's what I'm talking about.
By the time I catch up, it'll be ready for the next conference, and it just goes on and on and on.
Ah, so, uh, 802-321-4225.
We'll give it a few more minutes, and if we don't get more calls, we will sign off for the night and go back to sleep, because we're still catching up.
We certainly are.
Um, okay, so we did have a couple of suggestions of names for the 2017 conference...
Excuse me, for the 17th conference, not the 2017 conference.
Okay, all right.
Um, Tim in Connecticut suggests Hope 17, The Happening.
And I hope I don't get arrested for what I'm about to say, but our friend Fun Fox suggests Hope 17, Stella Miner.
Wow, okay.
You know, I just, I, I just reads them.
I, I don't make some up, I just reads them.
That implies, that implies we're a minor conference, though, you know?
We're not a minor, we're a major conference.
It also implies that some creepy person out there now has a countdown to Hope 18.
Um, which is just...
Ick.
Sort of creepy person.
Speaking of names, did anybody hear the new name for MSNBC?
Yes.
Uh, well, I had an article here, and now it's, I think, Kyle, you took my article, didn't you?
Uh, it's called MSNBC, and I forget what it stands for, but it's the stupidest thing ever.
Uh, news something in events.
Can you say it, man?
I, I had that article.
Did you take my article?
Oh, I can go get it, yeah.
Why would you take my article?
I'm not taking it.
All right, well, please bring it back, because that has what MSNBC now, which is their new
name, stands for, which I think is the dumbest thing ever, and if they have this much trouble
coming up with a name for a news network, uh, we've hit it out of the park with almost
all the hopes.
Thank you very much.
All right, so.
Yeah, it stands for, it stands for, hold on, I found it.
I found it.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
My source for news, opinion, and the world.
Dumbest name ever.
I mean, they obviously use that just to fill it out, but come on, you could do better than
that.
You really could.
I think you could do better.
Did you see the new logo, by the way?
Did they make a logo already?
They did.
Yeah, I see that.
It looks like a kind of half a flag.
What is that supposed to be?
I don't understand that.
I think it's half a flag.
And they have, they have little sections, my source, news, opinion, world.
So, okay, right away, what's the difference between news and world?
Okay, world news and what?
Regular news isn't world news.
What's my source?
What's that supposed to be?
Opinion I get.
That's the only one that makes sense.
You won't have the peacock.
No more peacock.
Okay, you know, there's worse things, but get a different bird, you know?
Look, we criticize Fox a lot, but they're good at getting their name out there.
You notice how every Fox affiliate has Fox in the name?
It's not the same for NBC stations, ABC, CBS.
They don't do that.
I think it's better to have individual identity, but the Fox stations quietly have been inserting
Fox in front of every channel number in the country.
And that way, you know where Fox is.
It's scary, but it's effective.
And I don't know.
I'm not saying emulate that.
I'm saying that's a contrast to coming up with weird words just to spell out an acronym.
I think lots of local affiliates do that, though.
Yeah, name one that's not Fox.
NBC4, ABC7.
They don't call themselves that, though.
They don't call themselves that.
They talk about it that way.
But the other thing is, I think that, especially in other media markets like here, you don't
have to give the call letters because it's all ABC, NBC, whatever.
CBS, thank you.
But at the same time, you know, when I was growing up and Fox became a thing and one of
the channels, like Channel 42, got repurposed from I don't even know what it was and became
the local Fox affiliate, they needed to, like, tell us it was that and not some bizarre thing
up there.
Which you don't remember because they didn't put their name in front of it like Fox does.
So, yeah, that's my point.
Right, but I think in other cities, certainly, that are not NBC, excuse me, are not New York
and L.A., the call letters for each station.
So, like, in Omaha, it was, you know, Channel 6, WWT, NBC, Omaha.
Okay, yeah.
Well, those were O and O, owned and operated stations.
There used to be a limit of five throughout the country.
And New York had WCBS, WABC, WNBC, and L.A. had KCBS, KABC, KMBC.
Interesting fact, KCBS radio is in San Francisco, but KCBS TV is in Los Angeles.
That's true.
See, that's a fun fact.
I'm filled with fun broadcasting facts.
We know this.
Also, I'm going to go ahead and preemptively say that I'm sure you have thoughts about the redistricting going on in California and Texas,
but we're not going to address them right now.
Then why did you bring it up?
Because it was a question in the chat.
Oh, oh, I thought you were bringing it up.
Okay.
I don't look at the chat, so I don't know.
My brain doesn't work.
I know.
That's why I do this.
I'm the chat relay.
It is the craziest thing what they're doing in Texas.
I just cannot believe it.
And, of course, you have to respond to it.
Why is everybody always criticized when Democrats respond to something crazy the Republicans do?
It's like, well, don't be like them.
Well, if you're not like them, you lose, you know, because they get away with it and you don't, and then you lose.
So, yeah, I guess it's war now.
That's the short version.
All right, listener, I hope that answers your question.
Can we check the dial tone?
No, we're going to check the dial tone again.
This is so exciting.
Go ahead.
Well, you made it further away by a lot.
Well, it's a different hybrid.
Well, it's not a good one.
It's very far away.
Very low.
And I hear an off-the-hook tone coming from somewhere else.
The telephone keeps ringing.
All right, we don't need that now.
I'm sorry.
It's Pavlovian by this point.
You know what else bothers me, as long as we're on the subject of identity?
Obviously, baseball teams, have you noticed that you are now required to know what the
logo of every team means?
They don't tell you the city anymore.
They just give you the logo, and you're supposed to know who's playing whom based on that.
You know, you just see like a C.
I saw a C the other day.
What does that mean?
Is that Chicago?
Is that Cincinnati?
Is that Cleveland?
How do you know that?
How do you know?
Who told you that?
It's programmed into your mind what their logos look like, and I have not agreed.
It's a Cincinnati Reds.
It's a big Reds C.
It's not Chicago.
And there's two Chicagos, too.
Right, and the reason it couldn't be a C for Chicago is because there are two teams in
Chicago.
So you know what the Cubs looks like.
Well, okay, there's two teams in New York, and they both have NY, and I get confused sometimes
and forget which one is which.
Yeah, I said it.
I can't tell the Mets from the Yankees sometimes.
Are you colorblind?
No, it's just I don't know their logo.
I don't memorize their logos.
Look, they should be grateful I memorized their nickname, all right?
Why do I have to...
Why can't they just put the name of the city like they used to?
And it's football as well.
It's hockey.
It's every sport.
Even if you master baseball, you have to...
Okay, I've never put those words together before.
Wow.
Okay, but even...
Can we do another dial tone test?
Oh, look.
Kyle is just quietly testing the dial tone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Here's the dial tone.
It's still far away.
You want me to make it not far away?
I want it to be close like it was.
Didn't we just get a phone call?
Oh, my gosh.
And now we don't have a phone call.
Now we have the opening of our show.
We can sing again.
Even if you conquer baseball, then you still have other sports where you have to memorize their logos.
And they probably want you to do that with corporations as well.
You know, I prefer words.
I've learned letters and words and sentences and things like that.
Let's use those.
That's it.
I'm done.
My suggestion for baseball teams is that they, like, find a more interesting game to play.
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
Baseball is a fascinating game to play.
It's one man versus another man.
Sometimes one woman versus another woman.
But usually it's softball for some reason.
And it's, you know, yeah, it takes a long time.
And they're ruining it by making it faster.
But it's a whole lot more interesting than football, where they just do the same thing over and over and over again.
Somehow fill stadiums.
And somehow that lasts three hours and nobody complains.
So don't even get me started on that.
And if I understood cricket, I would be defending it, too.
I keep trying and it doesn't work.
You got to know what a crumpet is to understand cricket.
No, you don't.
And I'll tell you how I learned about cricket.
How did you learn about cricket?
All right.
Don't laugh.
But there was a Google Doodle for the Cricket World Cup.
And you get to be a cricket standing there with a cricket bat.
And you hit the ball with the spin.
This is my favorite Google Doodle ever in history.
I keep a link to it just in case I ever want to go play cricket and blow off some stadiums.
But none of that indicates that you understand cricket.
Well, if you hit the ball far enough and you get to run back and forth and it goes boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.
And then all the snails in the stands cheer.
Yeah, that's true.
You go back and forth.
I don't know.
There's so much going on.
And why is the score 463 to 1?
Why is that?
No, that much I can't tell.
Yeah, you see, that's the question I always have.
I never get an answer.
But do we have a phone call?
Yeah, I think so.
Okay, good evening.
You're on overtime.
Go ahead.
Oh, hi.
I'm constructive criticism.
You have to do a little better.
The program tonight was horrific, especially the overtime.
I sort of switched off the self-congratulatory.
I don't want to use words that you've been objecting to in spirit.
The round was, you know, it pleases you guys.
It was a good conference, and we understand that, meaning the listeners.
The really interesting part of the show was the Doge interview, and I wish you'd played
it again in overtime, or something of that caliber.
And, you know, again, I am a regular caller, and I mean this in the best possible way.
Spur yourself better.
I understand that you put a lot into the whole conference, but, as I said, for me, this show
was terrible.
Well, okay, but you're saying you want us to play more of the whole conference, but
we talked about the whole conference too much.
The whole conference, but the interesting bit, you know, that was gold.
That was really good.
And I liked what you said, and I liked Alex's analysis.
I hope he is the lawyer who's going to listen to it carefully and find some argumentations
to use this in court.
Well, maybe he'll be there.
Also, you know, I already envision the defense that Doge and the government could have.
That is, oh, this guy doesn't even have a job title.
You know?
I can see them coming back with that.
Which he pretty much stays in his, you know, he's just an advisor to whatever.
So, you know, they have this rubber structure that basically insulates, because you're like
trying to hit the wind, you know?
You're trying to punch to the wind.
And at least that's the way they see it.
But it seems from what this guy said that that's the defense that they're going to imperniate their argument.
I think I get it.
But, again, this is more for Alex to devise an endeavor.
And, you know, he does this for a living.
So I hope he takes it on and dissect it and see something useful that can be used for it.
Well, I'll be sure to make sure that gets to him, in case, you know, in Sicily he doesn't get the message.
Yes, I know he's speaking to me.
I hope he comes back.
I'm sure he's coming back.
All right.
Thanks for your call and your feedback.
And if you have feedback to the HOPE conference, write to feedback at hope.net.
Let us know if you were there, if you were virtual, if you just were listening on the radio.
That caller was choppy.
Did you notice that?
We had audio, then it was in the distance.
Was that on his end or on our end that that was happening?
It was weird.
I guess the only way to find out is to get another phone call.
802-321-4225.
Now, speaking of sports, we didn't talk about soccer or European football or basically earth football that we don't recognize.
How do I go to the damn World Cup?
It's going to be in this country next year.
And I have no idea how to get tickets because you have to sign up for things with FIFA, you know, the global authority.
And then you buy something for the right to buy a ticket to the World Cup.
It's insane.
You have to somehow be recognized before you're even able to try and buy a ticket to a game.
I don't have all day to figure out how their system works.
I just want to buy a damn ticket to something.
You know, it doesn't even have to be the United States or, you know, any team I've ever heard of before.
I just, you know, want the experience.
But it seems almost impossible.
It really does.
And maybe it's not.
You know, I'm sure I'm making it a lot harder than it needs to be.
But if anyone out there knows how to do it, I'd like to know.
Yes.
You know, a friend of ours was asking us earlier today, coincidentally enough, if, you know, they're from out of state.
And they were asking us if we're going to go see the upcoming production of Twelfth Night at Shakespeare in the Park.
And to which I replied, you know, we'd love to.
But, you know, the process for getting tickets to that, and those are free tickets, and the process is so convoluted.
You have to be a member of something to get a chance to get something.
Or you have to stand in a line and get a chance to maybe get to the end of the line.
And, you know, you might not sit together.
And there's a whole rigmarole to go through.
And at the end of it, you may or may not get in to see the show.
I just thought you went to Central Park and showed up and got to see Shakespeare.
I had no idea you had to get tickets.
Oh, yeah.
You have to stand in line, and there's no guarantee of how many.
It's like going to get rush tickets for a show, but all of the seats are like that.
And, again, there's no guarantee about how many seats are going to be available for sale on any given day.
You have to get to Central Park at, like, what, 4.30 in the morning?
And I love everybody who's in the cast.
And, obviously, I'm a gigantic Shakespeare person.
You say 4.30 in the morning people line up for this?
I did indeed say 4.30 in the morning, yes.
What's to stop somebody from putting on another Shakespeare play on the other side of the park?
You know, for kind of an overflow.
Right.
So, well, you get Peter Dinklage and Lupita Nyong'o.
And Sandra.
Oh.
There are a lot of Shakespearean actors out there, a ton of them.
The newly renovated theater.
Emmanuel.
Yes.
There is a FAQ about signing up for tickets.
Yeah.
I read those things.
And sometimes I wind up more confused than when I began.
I just want to, look, I shouldn't need to read a file to know how to buy a ticket.
How do I buy the damn ticket?
That's all I want to know.
Who do I call?
What website do I go to?
How do I pay?
Done.
That's all I want.
You can't even do that yet.
Like, tickets aren't available for sale yet.
So it's too early.
When do they go on sale?
Well, nobody seems to know that either.
Will there be a ticket?
Woo.
Will there be an opportunity to purchase tickets directly at the stadium?
No.
Well, that's clear, at least.
What if they don't sell out?
I mean, you know, it's possible they won't sell out all the games.
Ooh.
Ooh.
Emmanuel.
You sound like Rebel now.
What?
Sorry.
I found out something that might be exciting.
Okay.
Okay.
And I do have to ask a slightly intrusive question.
It's none of your business.
I'll just get that out of the way now.
All right.
That's fine.
Do you have a Visa card?
I have all the cards.
Okay.
Well, okay.
No, wait.
Hold on a second.
I don't have Discover.
Which is fine.
They're doing a pre-sale draw for people.
I mean, obviously, they're assuming that interest is far going to outpace availability.
So this way, you can say, I would be interested in maybe purchasing a ticket if I had the opportunity to do so.
And if you have a thingy and, oh, my God.
Okay.
And I am sounding like Rebel.
This is terrible.
So if you have a Visa card, you can pre-apply for the raffle-ish between September 10th and September 19th if you have a Visa card.
Then they'll draw names at random after the application window closes on the 19th.
They'll let you know by the 30th you will then be assigned a date and time slot in October during which you can visit to buy tickets.
Oh, for God's sake.
There's not necessarily a guarantee that you'll be able to get them anyway.
It's like a crappier Sierra adventure game.
Legitimately, I think your best shot for seeing World Cup games would be to make sure you've got a good sports channel and get comfy on the couch.
Look, it doesn't happen all that often, and it certainly doesn't happen in this country all that often.
So, you know, who are all the people that get to see the games?
I should be one of them.
I think.
I mean, did you go to the Super Bowl?
No, but that's one game.
That's one game, one stadium.
This is like dozens of games throughout three countries.
No, I know.
I'm just telling you what the, if you want to enter the ticket lottery, that you may win a chance to have the opportunity to go buy tickets.
Well, you know, I saw something a few weeks ago where you could pick, if you want to pick a particular country and assume they go to the final, you can pay for the right to buy a ticket to the final game.
That they have gone through the entire tournament and gotten to, and you will have the ability to buy a ticket at that point.
But you have to pay for that.
And if they don't make it, if they don't make it to the final, you don't get your money back.
So it's basically that just taking money from people.
It's, you know, if your team doesn't make it, then you're out.
And how is that not betting on the World Cup?
I don't know.
But apparently you can bet on everything now, so.
I have heard it's legal in most places.
Yeah.
I think we're out of phone calls.
I think we're out of listeners.
We still have 46 people.
Well, we'll give it two more minutes.
8023-214-225.
See if anyone else has anything to say.
And then we'll be on our way.
But I really, you know, that's just been bugging me.
All those things have been bugging me.
It's good to get it off my chest.
Well, it's good now that you have time to be bugged by other things.
Now that the conference has been done for the year.
I've got a lot of letters to write, a lot of complaints to make.
A lot of things have been bugging me lately.
You know, you can catch up on the backlog of grievances.
You have a lot of problems with you people, and now we're all going to hear about it?
Don't think you're not getting a letter, too.
I would never.
In actuality.
Go ahead.
No, I was just going to say, Pierce Festivus is coming early this year.
But, Kyle, what were you going to say?
I was going to say, in actuality, we've got a lot of organizing and cleaning and other projects
that will finally get some attention.
We do have a call, though.
All right.
Let's take that call.
And good evening.
You're on overtime.
Go ahead.
Hi, gang.
Tim in Connecticut.
How are you doing?
It's Tim in Connecticut.
Did you have a good time at Hope?
Yes, I did.
Out of curiosity, what magical lecture or food do you guys consume to stay up and just participate
up that amount of time?
I mean, oh, there's lots of things I wanted to attend.
I just did not have the juice to do it.
Yeah, I can't explain it.
It's something that just drives you.
And you just keep going.
Right?
I mean, how would you describe it, Kyle?
That is actually a really good question, Tim.
Um, for me, I'm, I'm fasting a lot.
We do have some snacks every now and then.
I mean, I'm being very literal in my answer and I accept that, uh, you're sort of complimenting
us too, or you're absolutely complimenting us.
Um, but it really is just, uh, spend a lot of time on your feet, um, and the goal and working
towards the goal, which is really to make sure people have a good experience and to make
sure that the talks go off without a hitch that will, well, with as few hitches as possible
and that we get the information out there that we get everything captured and recorded
and that people stay safe while they're there.
And that's, that's really, it is just working towards that goal.
But, uh, we probably, um, yeah, we're probably just getting decent rests.
We are up early then and, um, and going to bed very late.
I don't know how I did that.
I woke up early.
I don't wake up early, but I was waking up early every day for this and going to sleep
late.
So yeah, it's weird.
It's an unusual combination of things we don't do and things we do normally do.
We do stay up late, uh, as a lot of hackers do, but getting up early is a little bit different,
but we, we were just, um, meeting the different milestones and, and, uh, and of course, uh, helping
with unexpected things at the same time, but definitely hydrating a lot.
Um, because it does get warm when you're working and, and volunteering and, and doing a lot
of building up and tearing down of the event.
But it's really just, um, the sort of alchemy of volunteers that come together and fill in
where we cannot.
And the people that do what they say they would do, that's an incredible thing.
A sort of alchemy of this, that when people commit, they don't overcommit, but they commit
and just do what they say they wanted to do.
And, and it turns out, uh, we accommodate, we try to like help facilitate things as much
as possible, but there are so many people that follow through and just hook up and show
up, show off their stuff or help support other people do that.
And that really helps us, uh, stay, I think somewhat, um, energized for all, uh, all the
other sort of unexpected things I mentioned, but I don't know.
I had a little bit more junk food than I normally do.
I think I ate half a donut with E that that's not something we normally eat.
No, I didn't share that donut.
That was, I had the whole thing, stuff like that.
Um, definitely there were, uh, volunteer snacks.
We, I don't know if you know, if, if people out there, um, we're not on site or they've
never volunteered before, but we have refrigerators and, and, uh, we usually have, um, uh, a basic
amount of snacks to, to, to live on.
If people can't make it to some of the food trucks or get out in the neighborhood and
explore some of the wonderful restaurants.
Oh my God.
We, we, we, we had some really good food in the, in the local neighborhood.
We, uh, sushi one night just across the street.
Uh, there's a couple of Thai places, uh, of course, Regina's pizzas is, is, you know,
if you've never been to New York before and a number of people, it's their first time in
New York.
I love hearing people say, I've never been to New York before.
This is my first time, you know, going to a pizza place like that and just, you know,
knowing what it, how to do it right.
It's just, it's just great to see that someone experiencing that for the first time.
And of course we went to Chinatown after the whole thing was over, you know, at, at night
on Sunday, Sunday night, like around 10 o'clock and the place in Queens, like, you know, not
far away was hopping.
It was, everything was open and we wound up going to this place that was like, uh, an
imitation of, um, uh, a Chinese village 150 years ago.
It was so incredibly fun.
Uh, and all these things, all these, you know, we learn more about Queens every time we go
there.
Uh, but there is just so much to do.
Uh, and that's why I want to make sure everybody gives it a chance because a lot of people write
off Queens thinking, Oh, it's not Manhattan.
So it's out in the boonies.
Oh boy.
You do not know what you're missing.
There was just so much there, but I got to say, you know, Thursday, I had no energy whatsoever.
I, you know, uh, we arrived on Wednesday and Thursday was hot and muggy and I just, I couldn't
even climb the stairs, but Friday got better.
I had a ton of energy Friday and the weekend was fine.
And, um, you know, you realize there's less time with every day ahead and, um, that gives
you, gives you more of a push.
Yeah.
For people in, in advance of the event, a lot of the work is done prior to it.
So really letting go a little bit is the test for us in a lot of ways, because we've nurtured
the whole thing, helped, um, get everyone kind of connected and information to people
that are working on different parts of, of the, the event.
And, and we have to kind of do our best to set the stage really, really quite literally,
but then you have to kind of sit back and then, and help people adjust things as you
go.
And, but otherwise just, um, watch the show with everyone else and, and, uh, and hope
for the best.
So that itself is, uh, like he said, uh, um, less work, but just, uh, seeing the result
of it and, uh, seeing it through to completeness.
So Tim, what were some of your highlights?
Oh, well, a lot of my highlights were the CIA talks.
They were extremely interesting, mainly because you see it from a different point of view that
you never see online or in the paper or anything like that.
Uh-huh.
Yes, absolutely.
You know, the, the, uh, the gentleman that was talking about the renditions and, um, capturing
high, um, quality people, VIPs, uh, that plus the, uh, the tracking of streaming, uh, films
on the internet was interesting of how it's done and what they track.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, and for this reason why I always buy the USB stick is because I can't be in every
place at once.
That's true.
That's true.
In fact, you were quoted as saying that.
Yes, and the nice thing about the USB stick, you know, it has that, uh, HTML menu on it
so you can go just like in the, uh, just like in the guide, you can go to every individual
talk off of that stick.
Right.
Yeah, we try to make things, uh, simple and, um, uh, you know, legible and literate.
You know, it's, you have to battle sometimes to do that, but we, um, we want to make something
that lasts and, and stands the test of time.
The other thing though that I like was that this time I could buy it right at the, uh,
2600 store.
Uh-huh.
Yes.
Instead of waiting till it come home and then you want it to available, you know, on the
2600 page and then buy it then.
Right, right.
You know, uh, another thing that we, we have extra shirts, extra, um, uh, Hope 16 shirts
that we are going to be putting on the store probably in, in the next day or so.
So we don't have a lot, so, um, they might go fast.
The other thing with that is, at least I know I can go to the store and get the current
t-shirt in my size.
That's true.
So I have to worry about a limited selection afterwards.
Hey Tim, uh, can we just do a little audio test now I got you on the line here?
Sure.
Okay, I'm going to pull this.
I think we lost him.
So Tim, you can't hear anything.
You just went away.
No, he's there.
He's there.
Oh, for God's sake, Kyle.
I'm wearing headphones.
You know, you just get to my ears.
He sounds much better.
I cannot hear anything, but the buzz went away.
I guess, I guess we're the buzz.
Uh, Tim, can you hear us now?
It's back.
Okay.
The buzz is back, but you know, I don't think the buzz gets recorded.
How about now?
Tim, you can't hear us.
Can you hear us now?
All right, enough, Kyle.
All right, I'm just breaking things.
Tim, you can hear us now though, right?
That is correct.
Now I can hear you.
Before, the hum would come and go, but I did not hear anybody ask me anything.
Such a pain.
All right, we're going to redo a bunch of equipment in here.
We'll definitely dedicate a little.
I'm going to stop touching.
All right, I'll stop touching.
Tim, you can still hear us, right?
I can understand the idea of, in your head, you're trying to think of what's doing it.
Uh-huh.
And it's kind of probably hard to sleep at night going, maybe it's this, maybe it's that,
especially if you have to set up multiple people in order to test it.
I still think it's the rain.
I still think that's got something to do with it.
It's just an environment.
It's possible.
Yeah.
We'll sort it.
Tim, you gave us a phone, right?
Yes, I did.
I dropped it off at the store.
That is an incredible phone.
I haven't had a chance to really look it over yet.
It's still in the van.
But 1949, I believe, is when it's from?
Uh, at least.
Actually, I think it's a little bit more than that.
The earphone piece had a part that was marked in 1940-something.
Uh-huh.
I'd have to double check it, because now the only thing I can do is look at the pictures
that I took of it.
Wow.
Where did you find this again?
I know you talked about it on the air.
Well, my neighbor was clearing out a shed, and he was going to pitch it.
What?
And I said, you know, wait a minute.
I would have somebody that would probably like that.
And I just grabbed onto it.
Was your neighbor a homesteader, a pioneer, or something?
No.
No, no, no.
Yeah, the receiver has a cover on it that says November of 55, and then the piece that
was inside of it said July 11, 1949.
And that's incredible.
It's one of these solid metal pieces.
Absolutely.
And it's just, wow.
To think that somebody might throw something like that out, it bothers me so much.
Yes, but, you know, I can understand.
A lot of people have no regard for what still works, but they can't use it.
And consequently, I have a lot of stuff in my house that all works, but I'm not using it.
Well, there is always a home to be found for these devices, these, you know, relics of
the past.
People treasure these things.
So if you have one anywhere, any listener out there, don't throw it away.
Contact us.
We'll find a home for it.
That was the point.
That's why, like I said, I could easily just throw it in the car.
Yep.
Well, we really appreciate that.
Thank you so much, Tim.
No problem.
All right.
And guys, I'm going to get off the line.
Somebody else call in?
Well, hopefully not, because we're ready to go.
It's 22 after nine.
But thank you.
Thank you again.
And we look forward to seeing you in the next one.
You bet.
I'll be there.
Take care.
Tim from Connecticut.
All right.
Well, I'm pretty wiped.
I've been wiped the last few days.
And now I'm wiped afresh.
So final words, folks.
Just thanks again to everyone who came out.
It was great hanging out.
It was great chatting with so many of you.
And yeah, I am already looking forward to next time.
And yeah, give Hope your feedback.
Anyway, positive, negative, indifferent.
Let Hope know what you thought, what was done well, what could be done better.
Yes.
Feedback at hope.net is the email address to do that.
Feedback is key.
Thank you to everyone who joined us tonight.
We will see you in two weeks for overtime.
And, you know, take good care of yourself.
Self-care is good.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And next week, we will be on WBAI 7 to 8 with a call-in show.
We ask that people who call in this show don't call in that show because we want to hear from the people who only listen to the radio.
Because there's a whole lot of them as well.
And they always have something interesting to contribute.
As Gila said, we'll be back in two weeks.
And Kyle, let me personally say good night to you as well.
Oh, good night.
What if I pull this wire?
Oh, for God's sake.
You can pull all the wires you want after we sign off.
Okay.
Good night, everyone.
Bye.