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He's stopped by officers at the Channel Tunnel in Folkestone while driving a friend's Silver Bentley to Benidorm, Spain.
So he was stopped on the way out of the UK, and his name is Yaxley Lennon as well as Robinson.
So it gets a little confusing, so it gets a little confusing, but we'll try to stay with this.
Robinson refused to give officers the pin to his phone during the stop, arguing that the device contained confidential journalistic material.
Judge Sam Guzzi said he could not be sure that the police stop had been lawful.
Robinson had been detained on the schedule 7 of the terrorism act of 2000, which allows officers to question people at UK ports to determine potential links to terrorism.
When he was asked to hand over the phone's pin, Robinson replied, and this is something we should all say whenever we're asked to give up our pin.
And he said, not a chance, bruv.
It's my work.
I'm a journalist.
And bruv, incidentally, is spelled B-R-U-V, just so we have that.
His barrister, that's a word for lawyer, which Alex, I imagine you would know.
So, Alice Dare Williamson, KC, I don't know if KC is part of the lawyer name or his name.
No, it used to be.
It's actually quite interesting.
So, QC.
We don't have time for a whole big story, Alex.
Just tell us what the KC means.
It used to be that people would have QC next to their name.
Now it's changed to KC.
Can you figure out why?
Because we live in a much more relaxed time?
Yeah, because it used to be Queen's Council.
Oh, now it's the guy.
Okay.
Yeah, now it's the guy.
The guy.
They changed their national anthem, too, if you can believe that.
I didn't know that.
Can you imagine if we changed our national anthem?
Yeah, they did.
Think about it, Alex.
Can you read the story here?
His barrister, Alistair Williamson, KC, argued that the stop was politically motivated,
saying the predominant influence on P.C. Mitchell Thorogood's decision, no relation to George,
to stop him was, oh, look, it's Tommy Robinson.
That was basically his motivation for stopping him.
Williamson added, if MI5 didn't think that Mr. Lennon is a terrorist, what did P.C. Thorogood
think he was going to learn by asking him about publicly available information?
He also noted that Robinson's frequent trips to Benidorm should have lessened, not heightened
suspicion.
Police had said they became suspicious of Robinson's vague replies about his travel plans.
And folks, really, you don't have to get too specific with authorities.
You can be vague if you want to.
And that should not arouse suspicion.
They're not related to you.
They don't have any right to your personal information.
It's up to you how much you decide to share.
Judge Guzzi, you know, every name in this story is fun.
I don't know why that is.
Every time I read a story from the UK, there's so much fun with the last names.
Yaxley, Lennon, Guzzi, Thorogood.
Uh, it's just, it never stops.
Um, Judge Guzzi, uh, criticized the conduct of officers involved, saying they had no real
recollection of questions asked during the 40-minute stop, and they failed to record
clear reasons for selecting Robinson.
The stop, he said, gave the impression of an arbitrary decision based on who you are,
adding that the decision appeared to be based on a protected characteristic.
I cannot convict you, Judge Guzzi concluded.
Uh, supporters in the public gallery at Westminster Magistrates Court cheered as he was cleared
of all charges.
And, you know, I gotta say, I think we should cheer as well.
Does anybody have an objection to cheering for this?
Because, yeah, the guy's a right-wing extremist, uh, activist, whatever you want to call him,
uh, probably doesn't agree with anything we have to say, but he took the right stand there.
He stood up for, for, um, his rights as far as privacy, uh, did not give up his, the pin
for his phone.
That's something I think we all should do, regardless of our, of our opinions, political
background, whatnot.
Any, anybody disagree or agree strongly?
No, I, I tend to agree with this one.
And, and you know, from last week that I'd like to disagree when, when I think things
are disagreeable.
Well, you like to be wrong.
I do know that.
That's very funny.
Uh, but I think there's a lot of parallels here, I think, between the powers that were
at issue in the UK case and what's happening within the United States and, and in particular
at our borders, because the, the operative fact there that you listed Emmanuel was that
Tommy Robinson was about to cross the border.
And if I understand this case correctly, the power, the powers that the UK officers use
to stop Robinson and essentially detain him and search him and ask questions and various
things was something known as section seven of the terrorism act.
And that, that gives the UK, that gives UK law enforcement at the border, essentially
like border patrol, very, very broad powers akin to what happens at the U S borders where
they're kind of like fourth amendment free zones and section seven basically permits police
to even without things like any kind of prior suspicion or without a warrant to basically stop
anybody and to question them and to search them solely for border security reasons.
And so in pushing back on this, he's really pushed back on this really, really broad power.
And the judge seems to have agreed with him that even this broad, very highly discretionary
power that's granted to law enforcement has to be used in a valid, in a valid manner and,
and cannot be exercised in a way to, um, to, to really discriminate on the basis of what
we would consider to be constitutionally protected characteristics. Um, they don't have a written
constitution in the UK. So they would just have to call it like a protected characteristics or his
identity. Um, so I think it's, I think it's a great precedent. Um, even if we don't necessarily
agree with the politics of this person, of course, the politics should not really enter into it. I
don't think. Uh, but the, um, the, the, uh, important thing about this is that, um, you know,
just because, uh, you have this power, you're, you, the government has this power does not mean
that power is right. It does not mean that power is not being abused on a regular basis. And I think
this is a good indication as to how that is the case. And it's also interesting, uh, you're talking
about protecting the border. He was leaving, he was leaving the country. So I don't even know how,
uh, you, you justify that if someone's leaving the country, how are you protecting the border
by seizing his phone?
Well, that, that's a good question, but I mean, there, there's still these very, very broad powers
that are granted to law enforcement at borders. And, and of course, yeah, even though most of the
time we're thinking about borders in the sense that we want to protect things from coming in,
but also countries have an interest in protecting things from going out. Like you don't want too much
of your own national currency leaving the country without the government knowing about it. That,
that can cause problems.
Sure. But this is a, this is a phone though. What, what, what could he be exporting on a phone
that a free and democratic society would be afraid of?
Well, I guess all kinds of things like bad things could be on the phone, right? But still
like you need some kind of valid justification. That's not, it's a, it's a phone. He could send
it, you know, he doesn't have to carry it.
Well, that's true too. Yeah. I mean, you could just, you know, mail bad things. You don't have
to have them on your, on your person.
It's more like, will you submit to us? And he said no. And that was the right answer,
but okay. So I'm going to ruin the story now, uh, because you know, it's all feel good up until now,
but, uh, the, the closing lines in a video recorded before the hearing, Robinson said his legal fees
had been paid by Elon Musk. And after the verdict, he again, thanked the Tesla boss billionaire saying,
Elon Musk, I am forever grateful. If you didn't step in and fund my legal fight for this, then I'd
probably be in jail. Um, okay. Well, you know, the number of people that Elon Musk wants to send
to jail for not agreeing with him, uh, definitely, uh, uh, negates anything good that he might've
done there. But, um, yeah, that's a full disclosure. That's, that's the whole story. Uh, okay. And one
other piece I wanted to get to before we, uh, talk to our guest, um, you know, about the, um, um, the,
the cell phone bans in schools, uh, particularly here in New York, but I imagine it's going out on
throughout the, throughout the entire country. Um, schools are cracking down on, on, on cell phone
use. At least 18 states have rolled out bell to bell bans. That's what it's called the beginning
of the school day to the end of the school day. Uh, New York, uh, has been calling phones,
distraction devices, and I don't think they're incorrect. Teachers are praising the shift, saying
classes feel more focused. Teens, however, are not giving up so easily. Some are, I mean,
some are enjoying it. Some are relishing having, not being tied to their devices constantly. Uh,
but students are sidestepping bands in the most millennial inspired way possible,
turning Google docs into digital chat rooms with laptops open. It looks like they're working on
assignments. In reality, they're typing messages back and forth in real time, just like an old school
AOL chat room or an even older school IRC channel. Um, this, uh, story comes from Fox news,
by the way. So, um, uh, be prepared for whatever is coming up. Um, the parents and teachers admit
the workaround is clever. One teacher said she respects her students determination, uh, to stay
connected and even acknowledge that the phone ban has improved behavior and focus in class. Still,
she worries that turning Google docs into chat rooms could open the door to bullying or cheating.
Uh, parents are also weighing in. One parent told, um, uh, this reporter, uh, that some kids in their
district are buying Mac books. Uh, uh, so, uh, just so that they can text each other through iMessage.
Um, others, the parent added are leaning on email threads or even old school post-it notes to keep
the conversation alive. I mean, they're actually writing things down on paper and passing that.
This has gotten out of hand. They're actually passing things written, scrawled with, with,
with ink on paper and sending messages that way. I did not see that coming. Uh, okay. On TikTok,
students proudly show off their secret docs conversations. Uh, captions range from playful.
Your cell phone rule was never going to stop me. Uh, too defiant. Can't ever silence us Queens.
The creativity is earning laughs from older generations who remember the days before
smartphones, but the trend is also stirring debate. Some parents see it as a harmless way for
kids to adapt while others worry. It undermines the entire point of the ban. Um, educators are
split too amused by the ingenuity yet frustrated that students are still finding ways to drift off
tasks during lessons. Um, yeah, so, uh, the viral clips, uh, provide one thing for sure. When it comes
to tech today's teens will always find a workaround. Need I remind the people though, uh, this was a
cell phone ban. That's what it was. It was a piece of hardware that you were banning. You've banned
that. You didn't say anything about laptops. You didn't say anything about just sending messages
back and forth. Uh, if you, if you want to ban that, there are other ways to deal with it. For one
thing, you know, uh, Google messages, which a lot of people use to send, uh, uh, text messages back
and forth on their phones. There's a web, um, um, um, app for that, you know, a web, you can,
you can tie it to a webpage so that you see all the messages there. So it's like you have your phone,
you just don't have your phone, but you can still send the messages. So if you want to ban that,
there's, there are other things you will need to do. Maybe ban Google during school hours. I don't
know. There's always a technical solution, but there's always going to be a way around it. Go ahead,
Rob. Yeah, this is a really clever. And, you know, I'm, I fondly remember ways in which I used
to skirt the limits imposed upon me when, uh, when I was that age and in school. And, uh, I think
the cell phone ban is interesting because if kids are, um, escaping onto just the internet in general,
whatever apps, uh, you know, messaging, whatever, using their cell phones during class, that's maybe
worse for teachers than kids just using something like a Google doc to talk to each other.
When the kids in your class are talking to one another or the kids in your school, even are
talking to one another, maybe that's not such a terrible thing in the grand scheme of things.
Um, and, uh, you know, at least, uh, you don't have to physically mutilate a textbook to cut a
hole in the middle to hide a Walkman in anymore. Um, is that what you did? It was a very boring book.
Don't worry. Um, but, uh, you know, there, there are, there are always going to be ways around
things. And the first line of defense, I think are the school kids who are going to find cleverer
ways than any of us to deal with this stuff. Go ahead. Oh, I just think it's, it is laudable
the, the sort of, uh, ingenuity and finding, um, all the features in some of these, uh, word
processing and other tools that are offered with Google and Chromebooks or whatever machines
they're using. It is meant to be collaborative. And I think, uh, that they're communicating
is fantastic. Um, because if they're working on an assignment as well, maybe they can focus
some of that conversation, uh, or, you know, at least have a conversation and ongoing sort
of chat, uh, uh, alongside the work they're doing, but I don't think this is really like
a terrible thing. And in fact, it's good that they're understanding there's many different
modes of communicating and you can bring, um, the sort of etiquette and focus to different
modes of communication and, and, and, and bringing that around your persona and, and learning to
develop the, the kind of skills you'll need using all the different types of things that
are available, even when you're, when you're, when you have access to your cell phone, um,
they're important. So yeah, if the feature's there and they're playing around with it and,
and it's not like as the teacher was concerned about like a disruptive or damaging kind of
activity, it's probably a good thing. Cause you're still learning, like I said, etiquette and just the
way to communicate virtually with people, because that is, that is a, uh, a sort of given in today's
day and age.
Well, you know, I think we're all assuming that they're talking to people in their class. Uh,
you know, if, if you're, you know, if you have access to, um, uh, you know, to your text messaging
or whatever apps, you can be talking to anybody in the world. And I think that's probably more
distracting than talking to your fellow classmates. I would suspect people aren't probably not doing
that. And they're, they're, they're talking to people, you know, in other parts of the world
about different things.
Yeah, it could be either case, but, uh, the tools are meant to be collaborative. So if,
if it's there and an assignment is, is a part of that, that very application, it, it's probably
the people, their classmates, they're already talking to about the work and, uh, having side
conversations is just like any other, um, classroom dynamic that a, that a teacher would have to deal
with. Uh, and like you pointed out, it's just the, the phones, the individual computers themselves
that are a distraction, uh, that take them away from the kinds of tools they're using in the
curriculum. You know, I think one solution would be not to have personal computers to use classroom
computers and, uh, you know, not allow students to log in with their personal information on those
school computers, which also serves as a privacy lesson. Uh, of course, you know, they'd have to
get all the equipment and that's money and education is not exactly a priority in our country, but you
know, it's, it's, it's the thought Alex, go ahead. Yeah. I mean, I'm all for, uh, technology in the
classroom. I think that we should just be giving kids, uh, access to a terminal session, give them,
uh, the VI editor and let them, you know, just, just go to town. That's, uh, that's sort of my
thinking. Teach every kid VI. I am for that. I am totally for that. That's right. See if they can
get out of VI, then, you know, they're, they're smarter than most, but the, uh, but, but more to
the point here though, I think this is interesting though, right? Cause I think Kyle hits it really
right on the head because it, it's about collaboration and all these tools are made
for collaboration. And if there's any method of collaborating in some way or another, it can be
used for communications and kids are going to figure that out. And it kind of reminds me of what, um,
it's almost like an operational security practice that was fairly popular. I don't know, I would say
like six, seven, maybe eight years ago for people traveling and countries that were somewhat
hostile, perhaps like China or something like that. You wanted to, to send a message to somebody
without actually transmitting an email. And what you would do is like log into the same Gmail account,
create a draft message, save it in drafts, and then just log out. And then the person on the other
end who wanted to receive that particular message would log in to that same account, read the draft,
and then delete the draft so that there was no email transmission that could be picked up by some
hostile foreign intelligence service or, or foreign actors. And in fact, that's, I don't know if you
remember, this is exactly what, um, general Petraeus did in that scandal back in like 2012, when he was
sending sensitive messages to a woman, um, and trying to avoid email transmission and detection. And he would
basically log into an account, type a message, log out, and then somebody else, this, this woman,
Paula, something or another would log in, review the message, delete it. But, uh, somehow that was
found out in a forensic examination of his machine. Somehow. Yes. Alice, if I could also just request,
uh, when you're, when you're talking about things, try to avoid the phrase six, seven, because you know,
you just caused a whole big stir here. We're talking about kids and we're talking about bypassing
things. That's just a phrase to avoid. And I know I said it just now too, but, uh, please,
everybody just calm down and, uh, go ahead. I do like the, the, uh, anecdote that Alex is pointing
out though. It reminds me of some of the, the voicemail system stories from way back in the,
the nineties and eighties, uh, where you have these systems that are used in unusual ways,
people leaving messages on systems, BBS is the same, same thing, multi-user systems. Uh,
it'd be interesting if everybody, uh, in the classroom maintains the, an account on a multi-user
system that, that they, I mean, I'm sure they do this in computer lab and stuff like that. So like
it is the, um, the, the way to create an understanding of, of your, your persona online or
your persona on these different systems. And, um, when you're, when you're collaborating,
when you're on those systems with other people, you want to use the ways that the different ways
you can communicate. And I'd like the idea of having a class where, where kids are challenged
to get around the various restrictions and bands. And you know, that's, that's a learning process
as well. That's a way to test your, your, uh, technical skill and to teach others. So, uh,
that's something to, uh, to consider for educators. If you're a kid out there who has, uh, broken through
the system or figured out a way to get around, uh, restrictions, or if you once were a kid who did
something like that in the past, please write to us, tell us your methods. And we'd like to share
them on the air. OTH at 2600.com OTH at 2600.com. Now, uh, moving forward, uh, a few weeks ago,
I was bitching and moaning about my Nest thermometer, um, not working anymore or about
to stop working because Google decided that it's, uh, it was too old and they, um, uh, they wanted
me to buy a new one and they just basically bricked it, made it so that I couldn't use it except
as a dumb thermostat that I have to walk up to and turn with my hand, uh, which believe me,
uh, cost a lot less than what I bought in the past from a different company. It wasn't even Google
when, uh, you know, when I initially made that purchase. Now there are many people who claim
that, um, uh, technology, um, wears out after a certain amount of time and that I shouldn't expect
something to last forever. And I don't expect things to last forever. I expect things to break.
And when they break, you know, either you fix them or you throw them out. Um, this wasn't broken.
This was bricked. This was artificially, um, uh, deactivated by a massive company that got bored
maintaining the product that they bought from a different company. And I just don't think that
should be my problem or anyone else's problem. And so, you know, I was, um, lamenting my fate and,
uh, that of everybody else who, uh, uh, you know, was stupid enough to buy these things in the past,
you know, having taken in by the convenience factor and the coolness factor of the whole
thing. Uh, and, um, hoping that somebody would come up with a way, somebody in the hacker community
or, or just anywhere in the tech community will come up with a way to, uh, uh, continue using the
devices and, um, take Google out of the equation. And it appears that someone has done that or was well
on the way to doing that. We, um, have joining us tonight, uh, Cody Casimba, and please forgive me if
I'm pronouncing your name wrong, uh, who is, um, with the no longer evil thermostat, uh, project,
which I just love the name of, uh, Cody, are you there? Hey, thanks for having me on. Thanks
for joining us. Um, can you tell us something about this, this, uh, project and is it something
that, that people will easily be able to use if they have one of these devices? Yeah. So, uh,
currently at the moment, gen two thermostats, like you mentioned, they were bricked by Google
essentially, uh, at the moment, if you go to no longer evil.com, uh, and follow the GitHub readme,
anybody should be able to flash their thermostat to essentially reactivate it back onto a remote
network, uh, which at the moment is my server, no longer evil. However, I have open sourced it. So
anybody can self-host it themselves. Wow. Okay. So you're saying it works right now. You, you,
how would you, how would you go about doing that? Let's say somebody listening to us right now has
one of the old thermometers. What do they have to do to connect it to your server?
So at the moment you just have to plug it into a Mac OS or a Linux machine through USB,
uh, download the repo that I, I set up, run a shell script. Well, a couple of commands,
uh, it flashes, it reboots. You'll see the logo that I set up. And then you just go through the
regular, uh, linking that nest has where you get an, you get an entry code. You go to no longer evil.com,
sign up, enter the entry code, and it links to your account and you're ready to use it.
And does it have all the same features that nest had?
So, so far you can change your temperature up and down. You can do a range heating, cooling, fan,
auto away. Uh, you could view your schedule. We are still implementing the ability to modify your
schedule to see history. So there's a couple of things that we're still adding. Uh, somebody in the
community actually did add home assistant integration into it. Uh, they're going to be
submitting a PR for that here soon. So you'll be able to add it to home assistant. Uh, but for all
the features, it should be rolling out within the next week or two.
That is incredible. Can you tell us something about how this project developed?
Yeah. So originally it came from, uh, Fulu, which is by Louis Rossman on YouTube. Uh, he's a big
advocate advocate for right to repair and they had put out a bounty for, it started at about $10,000.
Uh, and at the time of the bounty closing, I think it was around 14,700, uh, which is a mix of
10,000 from them and then public donations as well. Uh, that kind of, you know, lit a fire under me and
decided to check it out. And, uh, I, when I first started the project, I researched to see what I could
find. And luckily about, uh, 11 years ago, somebody had actually rooted the device. So I believe it
was exploit tears came out with it. Uh, but they discovered a way to root the device to flash
whatever firmware you want. And then once you root the device, I mean, that's game over, right? You can
do whatever you want. That's true. That's true. Wow. Uh, so what has the reaction been since you
started doing this? Uh, it's been great. Um, a couple of people have posted in the GitHub about,
uh, the lack of open source because originally I had done it in maybe three days and I just put the
website up. It's just as a prototype, just to show people, Hey, don't throw your device away.
There is something that can at least help. And then my plan was to open source it, but
I was trying to clean up the repo, et cetera. So some, some people were complaining about that.
However, it is open source to a hundred percent at the moment. Uh, but for the most part,
everybody has been very excited about it. There's been news stories that have come out about it. Uh,
it's been great. The community has reacted really well. Now, has there been much news coverage,
much media attention? Yes. Somebody posted on hacker news on packet day. Um, I believe nine to five,
Google Android authority, uh, a couple other places as well. We need to get it in the mainstream. We
need to get it on, you know, ABC news and stuff like that. Cause what I want to see is I want to
see, you know, average everyday people who are not in the tech community in any sense are able to do
this easily and realize, Hey, I don't need Google to do this. You know, I just need somebody clever
who can put something together and make it available. Yeah. So, um, kind of a, uh, interesting
aspect of it too, while I was reverse engineering the API to set it up was the privacy concern of it,
which is that Google in order to brick the gen one and gen two thermostats, uh, they did it a lazy way
by just in the get parameter, uh, they send model. If your model is display 2.8, then they brick it.
They don't send you the URLs for the device to communicate. If you send it display 3.7,
all of a sudden it works just the same, which is a gen three thermostat. So the API is the exact same
between gen three. I don't know about gen four, but I'm assuming gen two and gen one, they all use
the same API. Google is just saying, Hey, we don't want you guys on our network anymore, but they are
still collecting the logs. They did leave the URL in there to still have your devices and the logs to
them. So everything from bar, uh, log, so messages, you know, system messages, messages about the client
that tell if the temperature was changed, if you're present in the house, all those are still being
uploaded to Google. Wow. Now, are you saying that if I were somehow able to change the version number
of my nest device, I could fool them into turning it back on? Correct. I tested, I tested that on a gen two
thermostat by just simply having it change to act as a gen three. And it worked a hundred percent.
I was able to add it to the nest app, to the Google home app and use it just as if I, uh, as if it
wasn't kicked off the network. So they are perfectly capable of doing this. They're just choosing not to.
Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I don't know the reason why that they're necessarily kicking them
off. However, it's not the API. They're not phasing that out. It works just the same from gen three
as gen two and gen one. So I'm also assuming that gen three will probably be phased out here soon
too. I think the reason is, uh, I go back to an old New Yorker cartoon where somebody is basically
bringing a TV set into a repairman and the repairman says you fix it by buying a new one. That's what
Google wants you to do. Buy a new one, buy it again and again. Wow. That is simply incredible
though. Uh, and, and, uh, hats off to you for doing this. Uh, have you gotten any kind of
negative feedback? Has Google said anything? No, surprisingly, I haven't heard anything from
Google on the hacker news post. There was somebody that worked in the original nest that did say that
they were glad that the project existed. So it seems for the most part, I haven't gotten a DMCA.
However, I will say though, that one of the things that Fulu, the reason for the bounty
is that by modifying your own nest. So doing what I just did to flash the device, anybody can do that
legally through the DMCA, through whatever, uh, laws there are. However, by me telling you how to
do it, that is illegal. I'm actually breaking the law and I can go to prison for it, including a fine
up to $500,000. Good. So that was the point of the bounty and what this, the, the bounty was trying
to expose. So it's legal for you to flash it, to do this fix, but it's illegal for me to tell you.
Wow. Okay. Well, we'll have to go back and erase that part of the show. Kyle, you had a question?
Um, yeah, in publishing this and talking about the project itself, and it's sort of empowering
people to do it themselves as you're pointing to is probably a better route as far as you're covered,
but what do you envision, um, long-term or how would you like it to scale and what kinds of help
are you looking for? Or do you have most of the things covered? Do you just sort of encourage people
to take this up as a project? Um, or do you envision being able to, uh, add more people
to the server that you use for demonstration purposes?
So at the moment we've had about a thousand people on the no longer evil website sign up.
Uh, so it's essentially a drop in replacement for anybody that is non-technical. However,
the long-term goal, I would like to see people just simply self-hosted. We have most of the
functionality. People are, uh, adding to it to add integrations for more than just,
uh, home assistant, hopefully home kit matter, et cetera. Um, but, uh, long-term though,
I would like to see gen three, that device get on here because they're going to phase that out soon
and whatever other devices that there are. And, um, a followup quick, um, in general,
like what kinds of equipment would you, um, suggest people or what, what kind of stuff would
you suggest they think about as far as implementing in this or how in their house, like what kinds of
hardware or, um, how are there separate devices that run home assistant that other people have
had success with as far as integrating, uh, uh, a home hosting of this service?
So in order to run home assistant, if you want to have like a smart home, I think is your question
is you would just simply run a home assistant on your local network, which is through Docker,
for instance, like a Docker container. And then this device would be able to communicate with that
as well as all your other smart home devices. Uh, and my recommendation also is to put it in some
sort of VLAN where it doesn't talk to the outside world. You have everything ideally locally, hence the
self-hosted portion of it. So not only do you de-Google it, you also make sure that it's only in your
home network. Yeah. I know surprisingly a little about home assistant. I'm embarrassed by that,
but it seems to me like home assistant is the answer to a lot of the problems that we face right
now with a lot of our, our data just being given away to these big companies that don't care about
it. Uh, and we feel like we have no control. It seems like home assistant is exactly what can give
you that control. Do I have that right? Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Um, that essentially
handles all the home automation and it's all within your local area network. You can access it
remotely through like their cloud system if you want to, but it's local and you control the data.
Wow. You know, I, and I see a tremendous opportunity for people, uh, who want to help
others install that in their homes. Uh, people who don't want to be giving everything away to Google
or to Amazon, uh, just basically, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll put this, you know, closed system in your
house and you'll have complete control over. And if you want, you'll go to the cloud. Uh, but that,
that's a much healthier way of, of dealing with this. Rob, you had a question. Go ahead.
Yeah. Um, Cody, thanks for joining us. Uh, first of all, I just want to give you kudos. I'm looking
at your project on GitHub here and the, uh, picture of what comes up on the device's boot
screen. Once you've, uh, reflashed the firmware, um, where your device's display will then say
Nest now made with a hundred percent less evil. That makes me so happy. Um, but, uh, so in addition
to this, uh, you mentioned future generations of Nest thermostats that you're interested in getting
working with this, um, in the bigger picture of like internet of things, crap, that's out there.
Um, what besides thermostats do you think, uh, you would be interested in seeing similarly, uh, opened
up?
So this originated from the Fulu bounty. That's kind of what made me actually look into it.
Um, however, I'm open to, uh, anything. I just recently actually on my own network, uh, we had just
recently gotten a dog feeder that had a video camera and in Unify, which is a ubiquity product
for networking gear. I specifically disallow countries, one of those being China. And then
when I did that, all of a sudden my dog feeder no longer works. Right. And I had noticed that
it's sending to a server in China and, uh, stuff like that. I, I definitely want to take a look at,
I think that would be awesome to, uh, to make some sort of ecosystem to open these up.
Your dog feeder? China's interested in data from your dog feeder?
Yeah. Specifically it has a, it has a webcam with a live feed that you can watch and you can
two-way talk through a microphone webcam. So kind of creepy that it's going out to some
random address in China. And by blocking that, it prevents the device from working.
Wow. That's, if that doesn't show you how bad things are right now, I don't think anything can.
Um, um, Alex, go ahead.
Yeah. Cody, thanks for joining us. I wanted to go back to some of the, the legal implications
that you mentioned earlier. Uh, I'm guessing that you were talking about probably section
1201 of the DMCA that contains the anti-circumvention provisions. Is that right?
That's correct.
Yeah. So, and that's a tricky one too. I mean, obviously 2600 magazine and a manual is no stranger
to legal implications of violating the digital millennium copyright act. Given the, uh, the
events of 25 years ago when, um, the MPAA sued 2600.
Let's not talk about that anymore.
Let's not, let's not talk about that. Yeah. We could go on for hours and hours about that
particular case, but that one, this is an interesting case, right? Because section 1201 generally prohibits
bypassing technical protection measures. Right. And, and I guess technically you did that,
right? Uh, perhaps, but there's usually only criminal consequences as I understand it. If
the offense is has to be both willful and commercial in nature, like you're making money from it.
And I don't think in my, this is my opinion. I'm not your lawyer. I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your
lawyer. Right. But my opinion would be that given the open source nature of this, it's not commercial
in nature. So I would hope to think that, um, you'd be okay. Let's hope.
Yeah. I'm not, I'm not well versed in the law specifically to talk about, you know, what,
what, what is or isn't, uh, I'm just going off of base, based off of Fulu, their documentation,
what they had said, as well as, uh, Lewis Rossman. Um, and, uh, I, I definitely think that it should
be, you should be able to, to repair your device. And if what I am doing, if whether it's legal or
not, I definitely believe that you should be able to do it. This should be something that
in my opinion, Google should have done. If they decide that they want to end of life, a device,
they should at least allow you to open up that device to do whatever you want with the device that
you purchase. Yeah. I was just going to ask, is this something that you'd like to see, uh,
widely implemented as a part of the life cycle of various IOT products? Because the, the landscape
has changed a lot since the, the inception of, uh, these thermostats or, or something like home
assistance. And now everyone is really surrounded by whether they like it or not, these, these types
of, uh, uh, computer systems and microcomputers and controllers. So it seems to me that that is, uh,
is absolutely something that I think, um, we're asking for, uh, from a consumer standpoint that you
really shouldn't have to transgress any laws. It should be a part of the end of life. Uh, whatever,
um, whatever you had to do, uh, with, uh, reverse engineering, the API, for instance, or any of that
kind of work should have been something that was presented for people that were still interested
in using the, uh, the device as it was, as it was intended. Um, in other words, you shouldn't have
to like sort of rig up something or, or, um, or, or hack it per se to get it to work as it was
originally designed. A hundred percent. And the crazy thing too, was that in the nest subreddit,
uh, people were talking about just simply throwing these devices away. And oftentimes
these devices, whether it be a nest thermostat or a phone are more powerful than the computers we,
at least I had growing up. So it's crazy to see this device that is perfectly functional,
uh, just getting thrown away by people, uh, just because Google decides to stop support when there
was no, in my opinion, no reason for them to. And in fact, there are protocols that they've developed
that they can make it open to work with other devices too, to prevent this from happening.
Yeah. I think you speak to something that's, that's near and dear to all of us. Um, you know,
I, I have a, an old Samsung galaxy that, um, I, I retired, but I didn't throw it away. I didn't
return it to the company. I kept it. It still does things. The apps still work on it. It's like,
I have another phone. It just doesn't, you know, make phone calls or do other things. Uh,
we never throw out computers unless they are completely unusable because there's always
something you can get them to do. That's useful. And I think a lot of this holds true for so many
forms of technology. Uh, and, and we just take that for granted and, and just buy new ones every
year and throw the other ones out. It's terrible for the environment. It's terrible for our, our,
our pocketbooks. Uh, it's just, um, it's, it's not healthy.
I had one more question for Cody about the, um, apprehension people might have, uh, flashing
something or trying to modify something, uh, that they hadn't really thought they could do that on.
I mean, we really want to make this approachable for people that aren't ordinarily, uh, attuned to
modifying things. Is there any risk or is there things you, uh, tips or pointers you would have for
people so that they feel confident about doing stuff like this?
Yeah. So kind of to go against that, I will say there is a possibility you can break your device.
I haven't had a single report. We've had a ton of people that have flashed the thermostat, but
I cannot say that a hundred percent, there's nothing that can go wrong, right? Anytime that you modify
a device, there's something that can go wrong. With that said, we haven't had a single person that's
had any issues. Their devices haven't been bricked. Uh, I personally soft bricked a couple just
playing around with it and I've actually gotten it recovered. So I don't, I haven't seen a single
device that's been a hundred percent into a fail state. Uh, however, for most people, it's pretty
simple. We've had people that have been windows users all their lives that don't know how to use
a command prompt that we were able to walk through how to download Ubuntu on a USB stick and,
and flash it. Uh, but the process is pretty straightforward. You plug a USB cable into the
thermostat and then into your device, uh, run a couple of commands. And I actually did, uh, create a,
a, a GUI, uh, through Electron. So somebody would just be able to download the binary, run it if you're
comfortable downloading that pre-compiled binary. But of course you can see the source, uh, and that
would actually walk you through the process of flashing it automates that you don't have to touch a
single, single terminal. Has anyone considered making a video that will show people step-by-step?
Yeah, that's on the horizon. I'm, I'm planning once I've, uh, finished this a little bit more where I've
polished off the edges and created documentation, I'd love to do a tutorial or some sort of video that
shows people how to do it, especially for non-technical folks. My original prototype, the no longer
evil website, uh, while tech folks are a little hesitant to use somebody else's server, which I a hundred
percent agree with. It was more so just to get the non-technical folks, the thermostat to be
unbricked, ready to use something that they could just go to a website and it works just like Google
did. The technical folks can go the self-hosted route, um, if they want to be a little bit more
complex and set it up themselves. And they can go to your site and then self-host it down the road.
Yeah, correct. Yeah. So if you, if you use the hosted version, you could always, uh, flash it and
go to the self-hosted route at any time or vice versa. Amazing. Uh, we're speaking with, uh,
Cody Kosiemba. I'm pronouncing that right, correct? Yeah. Kosiemba, but yeah, pretty much.
Okay. And, uh, from no, no, uh, longer evil.com, um, are you working on other projects as well?
So I'm the founder of Hack House. We do mobile apps. I primarily been in, in mobile apps, uh, for the
past 10 years now. Um, however, I'm always working on stuff. Um, a couple months ago it was a flipper
zero, but my mind was blown when lucky 225 first showed me, showed me a nice spoofing and he called
me as eight, six, seven, five, three Oh nine. So I've been in security ever since or phone stuff
or whatever you want to call it. I've dabbled through everything. Wow. Well, that's a good connection to
have for sure. Uh, that's, uh, it's something incredible. Can you think of any other, um, uh,
similar devices to the nest where people could benefit from this way of thinking from this way
of taking control of the technology? I mean, I'm sure there are, there are hundreds, if not more.
Yeah. Uh, Fulu actually has multiple bounties one for Xbox, for instance, uh, to be able to just swap
out, I believe the CD or DVD drive currently, if your Xbox DVD drive, uh, breaks, you can't replace
it because they actually hard code a serial, uh, that makes sure it matches. So that's another
bounty. I believe that's at $30,000 right now. If anybody wants to take a crack at that. Uh,
but there's a couple others too. I believe there's an LG, a smart fridge, multiple products that in
some way have been bricked by the manufacturer or in some way harm consumers by doing ads or whatever
you want to call it. Uh, something that just isn't, isn't right. And there, they put bounties out,
uh, to prevent that, which is awesome. Have you reached out to the electronic frontier foundation?
Because I I'm pretty sure they would be very strongly supportive of this.
I have not. I just, uh, submitted my assessment to Fulu for the bounty and then just did a Reddit
post. And then from there it spread like wildfire, uh, news articles picked it up, but I haven't been
in contact with anybody. Well, with this kind of growing movement, at some point, one of the
companies is going to get angry and do something unreasonable. And, uh, that will be the time where
we stand up for our rights and, uh, you know, take technology back so that we have control over it
as we always should have done. Uh, Rob, you had a question. We only have a couple minutes left. Go
ahead. Yeah. I wonder if, uh, really quickly, you might explain, uh, Fulu and the bounties for
people who might not be familiar with any of this. Yeah. So Fulu is, uh, backed by Lewis Rossman,
who's a YouTuber, who is a very big advocate on, uh, right to repair a very, very big advocate.
He's the one that's leading it. He's the one that's actually putting, uh, his money up as
well as I believe somebody else, uh, to pay for those bounties. So every bounty starts
at $10,000 and then whoever donates money to it, they actually match that up to a total
amount of, uh, I believe $30,000. Uh, but they, they have bounties where anybody can submit
their hack or exploit or whatever you want to call it, uh, to make the product work again,
functionally, instead of how the manufacturer pricked it. And it's, it's a, it's an awesome project.
It's, it's a great, the work that Lewis Rossman is doing, especially, I believe they're doing
some, uh, some advocating around flock cameras where they're actually going to specific city
councils, uh, and advocating to essentially remove the privacy invasion with those. So.
Wow. Well, that's, that's, uh, simply incredible. Uh, we've been speaking with, uh, Cody Casemba
from no longer evil.com. Cody, you're welcome to join us on overtime, which follows this show
on YouTube, uh, if you want to continue the conversation further. Um, but we certainly want
to hear more from you in the future as to what you're up to and, uh, and, and help spread that
to our listeners, our readers, attendees, et cetera. Uh, because what you're doing is, um, is so
important and so inspirational. I imagine thousands of people will be waking up to this and saying,
wow, I can actually do this. I can actually keep control of, uh, of, of the tech that I, I put my,
my heart and soul into. I do have a couple of fires at work to take care of. I've essentially
been pulling all nighters for the past week to try to get this project pushed out, especially the
self hosting portion. So I do have to kind of tend to those, but I do appreciate, uh, uh, the offer
and I very much thank you guys for having me on and especially for talking about this. It's, you know,
shows like this that actually bring light to the issue that hopefully push Google and other
manufacturers to not brick devices like this. Well, thank you so much for joining us and for
what you're doing and you can count on me making my currently bricked, uh, nest, uh,
thermometer, uh, live again. I look forward to it. Thank you guys. All right. Take care, Cody. Uh,
we will be, uh, joining everybody on YouTube channel 2600 at eight o'clock. You can, uh, uh, phone us,
uh, share your ideas and listen to us, uh, gab a little bit more. Uh, but what's really important
is to support WBAI, please give whatever you can afford to WBAI, particularly, uh, BAI buddy
payments where you pay a certain amount every month and it adds up to a bigger amount throughout
the year. Buddy.wbai.org is how you can find out all about that and keep listening to 99.5 FM
throughout the day, throughout the week, and, um, be inspired to hear all kinds of developments of
social, political, and technological issues. We will see you next week. You can write to us
OTH at 2600.com. I believe next week we have our call-in show here on WBAI. So tune in for that
and join us at YouTube on channel 2600. Until then, good night. See you later.
Good evening.


And welcome everybody to Off the Hook Overtime here on YouTube.
This is Kyle and I mean, uh, no, excuse me.
Can we do that again?
Sorry.
And welcome everybody to YouTube on Overtime.
Damn it.
Overtime on YouTube.
My head, where am I?
This is Emmanuel.
That's Kyle.
Hi.
And, um, out there in Signal Land, we have Rob, Gila, and Alex.
Yes.
Yes.
Hello.
All right.
Are we on YouTube?
We are on YouTube.
Damn.
I think our volume is slightly low on YouTube.
Yeah.
Compared to how it usually is.
Yeah.
What the hell is going on?
Is nobody there?
There's not nobody there.
There's close to nobody.
Nobody's the next stop after this.
We'll pick up a few.
Um, it just.
Magically.
Jumped up a lot.
Um, and yes.
Welcome to the 21 folks we have with us right now.
What's up?
21 people.
This is what it's all come down to is 21 people.
All right.
Fine.
No problem.
No problem.
Uh, as long as, uh, all of those people call, of course, we don't have the phone lines
turned on yet.
So don't do that now.
And, uh, maybe the phone number is different too.
Yes, it is possible.
Is it though?
We are coming to you live.
Through your entertainment system.
Live and unedited.
And I like to give people the chance to speak amongst themselves while I set up the telephone.
Okay.
Oh.
Lots to talk about.
We can, um, talk about something you're interested in.
We'll hand out that phone number.
Take those calls soon.
Um, and yeah, a lot of files, a lot of data analysis going on.
Um, and yeah, so take a break from that chat with us.
We can talk about what we were talking about on the show.
I really think that thing of like different devices, there's so many, like it's exponential.
The, the affordability of integrating all these things into stuff you use all the time.
You're kind of surrounded by it, whether you like it or not.
And some things are designed to, um, be hacked on and some are not at all, but can be.
And it's kind of up to the consumer for us to figure it out.
So it's fascinating.
That was a really cool conversation.
Um, totally very, very cool project, uh, over on, over on GitHub, uh, no longer evil dash
thermostat under Cody Kosiemba's, uh, GitHub.
Um, the story we were talking about earlier about that guy, Tommy Robinson, who was cleared
of charges for not, uh, giving up his phone pin to the police.
Yeah.
Did he kill somebody or something?
What's he been up to in the week since?
Well, just, uh, just in general, um, I think he really embodies the.
Old chestnut of human rights are only important if you're willing to grant them to humans,
um, that you think are raging jerks.
Um, reading his own Wikipedia article, just every, every line of it makes me like him less.
Um, the guy is a, is a fascist, uh, dipshit here.
I didn't suggest you do that.
You know, I, I basically tried to steer you away from him.
The more you read, the more you're going to dislike him.
And then you're going to say, you know what, maybe we should do this.
And then, you know, before you know it, uh, you, you, you're buying into even worse things.
No, no, no.
But, but even though he's a fascist dipshit and exactly the sort of person that you could
picture, um, Elon Musk wanting to, uh, throw some money at, um, it's still important that,
uh, he is not, uh, he is not, uh, put away for this particular thing for not giving his
phone up to the police.
I think that, that, uh, particular right to privacy is one which, uh, which, you know,
is a human right and which people should have even, even this, even this jackass can be
right about one thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The thing is, you know, if, um, uh, if you, if somebody is up to no good, you can always
get them on what they're up to no good about.
You don't have to get them by cheating and by saying, oh, I need to have access to all
of your info so I can find the things you're doing wrong.
Cause that hurts everybody.
And, you know, we, we, we see that all the time used against us, you know, i.e. law abiding,
uh, fairly left of center people.
Um, and, uh, it's, it, it's not fair then it's not fair here.
If there is truly something, uh, that is, um, uh, you know, a crime, uh, then do the investigating
like, like, uh, you know, police and detectives have always done and find the crime, but you don't
find it by, by having fishing expeditions.
Yeah.
And, uh, he, this guy is in and out of, uh, um, all sorts of, uh, prison sentences and,
uh, legal battles and stuff over crap that he's doing that does deserve, um, you know,
the slaps that he's getting.
So, you know, there's, there's plenty to, to, there's plenty to throw at him without, uh,
without invading a right to privacy that we should all have.
Um, I also would like to just say something about Google and not necessarily getting stuff.
Um, we're on YouTube.
We have the live chat and YouTube will occasionally hold a comment if it seems questionable.
And sometimes it's because of swear words and sometimes, uh, Tim in Connecticut, I do believe
we owe you a bit of an apology because Google held your comment for a second.
He said, and I quote visions of punching wires into a 66 block.
Wow.
What kind of violence is that?
That's not the kind of speech that we, we embrace here.
Come on, do better for God's sake, poor wires.
That reminds me of some chores I have to do.
What, what did, what did Google say?
It said, it held it for me to review.
Okay.
As moderator, as moderator to make sure that it wasn't overly objectionable.
Well, however, sorry, what were you going to take out?
I was just going to say ease up YouTube.
Like stop being so aggressive.
I think Tim is the one being aggressive here.
He's punching wires.
Super good.
He started it.
Yeah.
What'd the wires do?
But I would also like to note that the response to what Tim said once it got through was our
pal Lou Richu, who said, jack into the twisted pair and that didn't get held.
Wow.
Well, the level of discourse is as usual high.
So I'm looking forward to the phone calls.
I like it.
Which it's still not turned on yet.
We have to do some more crimping.
It's filthy.
Am I allowed to say that?
It's, um, it'll be done soon.
Yeah.
It's, uh, to reinvent.
Um, and actually, as long as we're on the topic, uh, did want to thank our pal Lou Richu for
sending us a new song that, um, we're sampled in, which is pretty awesome.
So thank you for that.
Um, we do.
And if you give me the go ahead, uh, Lou, I can drop the link in the chat so everybody can hear it.
Um, why don't you drop it in here so that we can hear it?
Um, cause we're not on the chat.
Well, we, we can't broadcast it, but, uh, Lou Ray too, did email it to the show.
So if you've got the show's email up on a computer that can, uh, that is patched into the board, you can pull it up.
Oh, so you're passing it on to me now.
Okay.
All right.
You've got that.
You've got the hardware there and it's only about a minute and a half long, but, uh, it's, it's charming.
I don't think, I think you're just challenging Raju to play it himself somehow.
So if we don't do it, we're going to be schooled.
So I think that basically.
I've got to get it.
I've got to get it.
It's going to involve all kinds of different TCP IP connections and, uh, um, protocols.
And I'll, you know what?
I'll do it.
I'll do it.
You guys can hear talking amongst yourselves and.
We certainly will.
Yeah.
You all can't see a manual, like fiercely unplugging and plugging things in like chief O'Brien
on deep space nine.
It's, it's fascinating.
I believe that Rob has the power.
He's just being modest.
Honestly, I would have to, I would have to plan for this power in advance, but, uh, we have
not so humble.
So humble, Rob.
Why do we have two factor authentication on our own server?
It's fine.
I'm in the same room.
It's fine.
Don't worry about that.
Is that like when you're trying to log into something on your cell phone and then your
phone, you have to get a text on the phone that you're using to log into the site?
Yes.
Like, you know, two factor authentication is great, but every so often it seems a little,
a little beyond.
A little bit.
God damn it.
That's a, that's a crosswalk.
That is definitely a crosswalk.
I'm sorry.
I am so sick of being told I'm wrong by, by robots.
I know.
We're trying to prove I'm not a robot, you know, God damn it.
I am not a robot.
If you fail crosswalk, they may give you bus.
Bus is easier.
Or, you know, traffic lights.
I failed crosswalk yesterday and they gave me bus.
Cause I think I was over-saking crosswalk.
Well, the thing is, it's like if, if, if, if there's part of a crosswalk in one of the
frames, I say there's crosswalks in the, but apparently that's wrong.
You can only do it for the ones where it's taking up the full frame, you know, same thing
with bicycles.
Yeah.
And my question about the crosswalks one has always been, are they just talking about like
zebra crossings or do you talk about like a curb cut on the sidewalk?
That's the way into the crosswalk.
Um, Lou Rachel says, I was thinking about playing it over the phone, but haven't built
an audio interface for landlines yet.
Yeah.
All right.
That's clear.
That's going to take.
This is flack.
Can I even play flack?
That's going to take time.
Can we play flack on the hardware we have here?
Do I have to like install something?
Try VLC or whatever you're using.
You can play flack or you can click the link that Lou Rachel gave us to play it in the,
in the web browser.
With firewall, we're firewall to hell and back, but you know what?
I'll, I'll keep working.
I could keep talking amongst yourselves.
I do love some, uh, lossless audio codecs, especially free ones.
Um, we can talk about another email we got, uh, we got to the show, which, uh, comes from
HR 2600.com, which I didn't know we had an HR, but it says, good day colleague.
As already stated, the salary upwards review benefits and allowances will be effective as
soon as the month comes to an end.
The HR department does 2600 have an HR department has already finalized the salary structure and
it is to be dispersed.
Please revert to attach document to see the details.
Are you actually reading spam?
You're reading spam.
Wait, this isn't actually from finance at 2600.com.
Oh my God.
Regarding the, the, I guess, salary increase you're going to give us volunteers here.
Uh, I was going to say we're getting a raise.
Wow.
Okay.
I'm, I, I, I had my hopes all kinds of up and now, now I'm just, uh, but feeling a bit
foolish actually.
Well, keep your hopes up, Rob.
Always just stay optimistic.
It really is.
It's a, your best feature.
Yeah.
I, I, I hope this isn't going to affect my next performance review.
No, no.
Of the many HR, I think we'll be fine.
We'll be, you'll, you'll be fine.
Um, but that is terrific.
What, what other news is it, uh, worth, uh, discussing?
Alex, did you have anything, uh, that, that you were thinking of?
Uh, would you like to continue to elaborate on, from the, the earlier conversation?
Oh, I think we should take phone calls.
I think we should, uh, I'm ready.
It's, yeah, I think, I think we should get it started.
I mean, uh, I, uh, I'm tired of hearing myself talk, right?
And, uh, I want to hear other people talk like Alex, uh, can I remind you that I'm currently
doing the second bit of homework here in getting the FLAC file to be transferred over to the servers
that are in the studio so that it can be played and enjoyed by the listening public.
So I have not yet gotten to installing the phone line that enables you to hear other people's
voices.
So please let's, let's listen to your voice for a while or, or, or another delightful voice
in the studio and I will finish as soon as I'm humanly capable.
A complicated process.
You know, you would have never made it as a voice go.
Here, here's one for you, Alex.
It was, uh, this is a story from 404 media.
Uh, our, uh, pal Jason Kobler posted this today that, uh, a judge rules that FLAC surveillance
images are public records that can be requested by anyone.
Um, our, our guest Cody just, uh, mentioned FLAC, uh, cameras, um, right at the end of our
radio hour and, uh, FLAC cameras, which are license plate scanning cameras.
Um, a judge in Washington has just ruled, has just ruled that police images taken by these
things are public records and you can request them as, you know, you would any other public
record.
And, uh, the article writes, uh, the article reads, the decision highlights the sheer volume
of the technology fueled surveillance state in the United States and shows that at least
in some cases, police cannot withhold the data collected by its surveillance systems.
Um, judge Elizabeth needs, needs, uh, judge Elizabeth ruled that the FLAC images created
by the FLAC, uh, generated by the FLAC cameras located in Stanwood and Cedro-Wooley, Washington
are public records under the Washington state public records act.
They are not exempt from disclosure and an agency does not have to possess a record for
that record to be subject to the public records act.
Uh, did you, did you have a, did you happen to see this go by Alex?
I didn't, I didn't, but that's, that's pretty fascinating.
I mean, it's, it's, it's an interesting case because it's, um, obviously there's far reaching
implications here.
If all of that data can be obtained through a state-based freedom of information law, most
states will have the, the, um, the equivalent of the federal FOIL law, which is the freedom
of information act in New York, we have FOIL, the freedom of information law, but very oftentimes
when you try to use it, agencies from which you're asking for data will, will throw up
some kind of exception or some kind of rule that, you know, causes them to not actually
have to disclose anything.
So for license plate readers like this, I mean, it would be really kind of interesting to make
these types of requests for specific license plates that, about which, you know, I don't
know, maybe they relate to celebrities or politicians or, or something like that, but if they're public
records and they can be obtained through these state-based laws, um, I also see it as like
somewhat dangerous too, because they could allow people to track you in a sense, like if you
get a timestamp associated with a particular license plate, it would be very easy to recreate
how somebody, um, you know, how somebody was traveling at any particular period of time.
So, and as much as I think it's great for, from a transparency perspective, it could also
have privacy implications from a personal standpoint as well.
Yeah.
Sorry, go ahead.
So I found something else, um, a story from yesterday from the Denverite blog where, um, someone,
when an officer in the Denver area used flock to sort of backtrack, he's like, this woman stole
a package, went, accused her, accused her publicly. She had tracking data from her own car that said she
was nowhere near the area at the time and didn't commit this theft that they accused her of.
And it's also the AI of it all makes me nervous in the same way, like the Doritos bag situation.
Yeah. Um, the judge in this case in Washington, whose name is Elizabeth Nijewski, I want to say
it's N-E-I-D-Z-W-S-K-I. Um, a bit of her decision, conclusions of law. Uh, one, the flock images
generated by the flock cameras located in Stanwood and Sedra-Wooley are public records under the
Washington State Public Records Act. Two, the flock camera images generated by the flock cameras
located in the cities of, uh, yada yada are not exempt from disclosure under, uh, RCW 425624.
The flock, uh, uh, an agency does not have to possess a record for that record to be subject
to the Public Records Act. Um, which is a bit that I find very confusing. Um, and this, uh,
finishes up flock camera images are created and used to further a governmental purpose.
The flock images created by the cameras located in Stanwood and Sedra-Wooley were paid for by Stanwood
and Sedra-Wooley and were generated for the benefit of Stanwood and Sedra-Wooley.
What kind of cameras are these?
These are automated license plate reader cameras. Um,
The word you were saying before camera is what?
Uh, flock camera.
What's a flock? How do you spell that?
Like a flock of birds.
Like a flock of birds. F-L-O-C-K.
Is that, is that a company or is that a type of camera?
That's the company.
Wow. Okay. Not to be confused with flack, the audio file that I've been working with.
That's correct. But wait, can we add another layer to this? Uh, Tim in Connecticut has chimed
in in the chat to let us know that cities around the country are beginning to shut down their flock
cameras, um, shut down or suspended and found a story from elsewhere in Washington state. Um,
Redmond's city council voted unanimously Monday to turn off its automated license plate reader cameras
after learning that U S border patrol improperly accessed Auburn's flock system last month.
I swear to God, I have never heard the phrase flock camera before tonight. And yet all everybody's
talking about it as if it was, uh, the main subject that we've always been discussing,
just like no one ever mentioned home assistant before this week in our, I think one person wrote
into us and said home assistant once on off the hook, no one's ever mentioned it. And you know,
we don't know enough about it because of that. And I, I was pointing out that it's evolved,
like the market for all of that stuff has evolved. So it's, it's, uh, it's interesting that it,
it came up, but it was emergent at the time. And, uh, now we're looking back.
But not only that, we've been, we've been clamoring for something just like that
and it just happens and we're not talking about that. So yeah, you know, we definitely need our
listeners to help guide us and push us. If it wasn't for Cody tonight, I I'm sure there's a lot
more we wouldn't have known. Well, we, we, we've talked about license plate readers and in various
forms, but they're, they're not, um, sort of standardized or commonly understood. And now
it's sort of, it's, uh, mature technology that, that there are many different probably brands and
schemes for setting them up. So here we are, uh, referring to it by like a name, license plate
readers. Um, you know, I, I really want to have an app for license plate readers that, uh, you know,
basically, uh, for the interest of privacy, they don't actually record, uh, individual license
plates. They only record police license plates because they're different. They look different.
And that way, you know, what cop is where, when they pass by and you know, it's, it's,
it's useful information for everybody, including the cops. Sometimes they lose track and it would
be a nice exercise to just kind of weed out all the license plates and just have, you know,
because authorities hate it when you do it to them, they love doing it to us, but when you do it to
them, they freak out. And I, I, I just enjoy making that happen.
That, that had occurred to me in the, in the previous conversation about this, that basically
if that stuff is available as a public record, is it not, um, putting emergency vehicles and other
emergency services that would be captured by those recordings out there as well, or at least
making them available. Um, and they could be used in the way you're talking about with, um,
uh, various tools and, and, uh, things to analyze the information.
I, I, I believe the phrase is used often by the Trump administration. In fact, that nobody is above
the law. And I think that's, that's commendable, uh, for them to say that because it, it, it
demonstrates an understanding of our nature of justice, you know, and, and, uh, everybody being
equal. And I wish we could all, uh, uh, embrace that a bit more and, um, hopefully we can,
we can follow in their footsteps. That's the nicest thing I'm going to say tonight. Yeah.
Um, so thank you to Tim in Connecticut who suggests that you can Google flock cameras
being shut down stories from all over the country about cities starting with block and
backing out. Um, Evanston, Illinois canceled their contract in August and flock, uh, pushed
back. Um, lots to learn someone, a, a, b, b, s, b, 7, m, m. Uh, don't know if that means
anything, but social security number. That's what you read. So something weird has happened
on YouTube in the last few weeks. And instead of having like user names, it has user IDs now.
Um, so for example, instead of mine saying my name, it says my user, my Google username,
which is pretty similar. Um, but.
But isn't that the same thing on YouTube? The, uh, the, uh, Google username is the same
as the YouTube username.
No. So it used to say my first name and my last name, and now it says at Gilchava, which
is my user ID. Weird. So I wonder if a, a, b, b, s, I'm sorry, dash s, b, 7, m, m, uh,
has an easier to read username, but regardless, they said every Home Depot has a flock camera,
but also isn't Home Depot, like basically letting ice raid their parking lots. So, you know.
But, um, an interesting twist to this, the, going back to the 404 story, the reason this,
uh, ruling came up is because, um, a request is made, a public records request, uh, by someone
called Jose Rodriguez, who back in April, um, requested all of the images taken by the city's
flock cameras between the hours of 5 and 6 p.m. on March 30th. Um, he later narrowed this
request only to ask for images taken by a single camera in a half hour period. And his reason
for doing this was to see if they would release them, um, in hopes that if they were public
records, it would raise awareness to all the communities that use the flock cameras that
they may be public record and could be used by stalkers or burglars or other people with
bad intentions. So dude was proving a point and the point has well and truly been proven.
I know in, uh, at least this was the case in the UK, you could request, uh, camera footage
for a particular camera for a particular time to see if you showed up on it and to use that
footage in case you wanted to document your trip across London or something like that.
It was a really cool, um, uh, policy. I don't know if it still, uh, exists, but I'd like
to see something like that here if it doesn't exist.
Yeah. There, there were, there was some activist project, uh, which, uh, would stage little,
uh, vignettes in front of security cameras and then request the footage in order to
make videos, um, just as, as a performance piece. And that, that was really interesting.
Uh, surveillance theater or something like that. Yeah.
Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I'm forgetting something, but, uh,
I've just been doing so much tonight.
Uh, you were going to mention that we are really excited for new first time callers.
We're really excited for new first time callers. Yeah. This week. This week. Okay. Yeah. I'm
excited. So if you haven't called before, please call, uh, others are welcome to call as well.
Oh, I haven't set up the phone yet. Okay. Oh, and you were going to play something.
Oh, that's right. Yeah. No, I finished that a while ago. I just, I was listening to you
guys and it just was really captivating. Uh, so yeah, I have, uh, I have this flack file
here with, uh, someone want to, uh, uh, uh, intro it or, or just, uh, describe it or
something. This was, uh, this is, this, this is a, this is a, uh, single sent to us by
our, uh, our probably right you. And, uh, with the subject line, Buffalo, Buffalo,
Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, which is something we were talking
about on a recent episode. You said it wrong. You said it wrong. No, you did. Yeah. All
look. All right. Well, we can go over that later, but, um, okay. So, uh, here it is.
Right. I don't know. I'm like the, I don't like the, I don't like the, I don't like the one that I've
got the red black community. Oh, okay. All right. Uh, uh, uh. Um, okay. All right.
不要. Um. Fayette. Uh, uh, why would there be, uh, why be a, um, вcamden?ele. Um,χ,
right. I don't know. I'm like, um, like the, I don't like the yellow outside. Um, like I
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Oh, oh, oh, oh.
Wow.
Wow.
That was, Kyle, you can dance to anything.
That's really.
Thank you.
That's really good.
Really incredible.
What else do you want?
What else do you want?
Wow.
Thank you.
That was, that was delightful.
Thank you, Luray James.
Absolutely was.
And we have put the link in the chat if you want to download it from SoundCloud your own
self.
That's right.
Yes.
And we appreciate people sending us music.
OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
So feel free to do that.
I'm going to open up the phone lines if that's okay with everybody.
I've waited long enough and I think it's about time.
Yes, please.
Go for it.
You guys are just gabbing up a storm.
I didn't want to, you know.
All right.
It's a phone number.
It's not going to work until I say the last digit.
So, you know, if you're dialing now, you're not, you're not gaining anything.
It's country code one.
The area code is 802.
The exchange is 321.
And the extension is 4225.
And is something funny, Gila, that phone number that you think is, wow, that was fast.
The phone number in and of itself is not funny, no.
But the way you announced it, Emmanuel, was very entertaining.
That's what phone numbers are.
I was simply defining every element of the telephone.
And a great foundation.
Thanks, you.
And, yeah, be glad there weren't more numbers because there could be.
All right.
So, we have a phone call.
We don't.
I heard the phone ring.
I think that that phone call had cold feet.
Okay.
All right.
That's understandable.
It was a shy attempt.
Well, we're, you know, we're not an easy audience.
That's for sure.
Which is why we tend to be the hosts.
But 802-321-4225 is our telephone number.
And I guess we'll just wait for a call to come in.
Please.
Please tell us what's on your mind.
As I said, new callers, welcome.
If you've never called before.
We're a radio show that is streaming on a streaming service.
And we're going to talk to you.
So.
Well, hopefully talk to this person.
I'll answer this call now.
Okay.
And we will say good evening.
You are on Off the Hook Overtime.
Go ahead, please.
Yes, Emmanuel.
It's Rebel.
Rebel always is the first call because the rest of you all just aren't fast enough.
And you need to work on that.
I'm just now getting.
Because he continues talking even when I talk.
That's the thing.
So he's still gone.
Setting up my computer.
I know you were talking about like things like right to repair and like getting around
certain things.
You listen.
You actually listen to the show?
Oh, my goodness.
I'm moved.
I really am.
I really am.
I'd like to mention about, before I talk about what I want to talk about, about Windows.
I can know like.
You mean you don't want to talk about this?
You don't want to talk about what you're talking about right now?
Okay.
Well, it relates to what we're talking about.
Okay.
You have.
So like when you buy a PC now, it automatically comes in something that's not a Mac with Windows
11.
And I bought a PC.
I have.
Last year, I got a desktop PC from HP.
And, and I had a laptop from Isus and the Windows 11 works perfectly fine on the laptop.
But when I was on the desktop, it just, it wasn't working efficiently.
I mean, it was, you know, it was working slowly.
It would lag.
It would, you know, when it would play audio, it would like have static.
So when I switched to Linux and I put Linux Mint on it, got rid of Windows 11.
It's working perfectly now.
I hear good things about Linux Mint.
I hear that you can also emulate many of the programs that would run on 11 or 10 without
too much of, of the difficulty.
So I think you made the right choice.
It wasn't working.
Right.
And also, I'd like to mention that a lot of people are taking old terminals, like old
things from, you're talking about taking old technology and making them work and not
throwing them out.
People are taking old stuff and putting them and like making them work.
Like if you have an old terminal from the 80s and the late 80s, early 90s, you could just
take it and put, if you know what to do and hook it up, right?
You can, with special cables and, you know, set it up in a certain way.
You can make a terminal from the 80s or 90s work if the terminal is actually working.
You know, you can make anything from the 80s or 90s work if you're committed to it.
Yeah.
Anything from the 90s.
You can.
It's not that dramatic a statement.
You can even make civility work.
You can.
It's tough, but you can.
It's currently, currently bricked.
Yeah, now what, um, what, um, I just also like to mention, I was at the, um, uh, Hackensack
bus terminal, but, uh, there are co-carts there, or there used to be Bell Atlantic, New
Jersey, Bell phones.
Um, I didn't notice that when I dialed zero, I just get out like a, uh, uh, a general operator,
like a local, like, um, I guess one, I think it's, um, oh, uh, that new thing, that 1-800
call it a WiMAX operator.
But if I dial star zero, I get like a Verizon operator, a local operator, but for some reason
I get these, you know, those, uh, KP2 and MS tones, uh, the MS, what is it called?
KP and MS2 or something.
Okay.
The loud beeps, the loud blue box tones that go, deeek, doot, you get those for some strange
reason.
You're getting blue box tones?
Not blue box tones, it's those, the ones for coin return and coin collect.
Oh, okay.
You're talking about for, uh, what, what pay funds used to send to return a quarter.
I know the tones you're talking about.
But it's, the return, where the operator returns a coin, a collection coin, that's tone that
gets sent down to that, deeek, the loud tone.
Yeah, it's on the, on the AX system.
Um, I, I don't know what that specific tone is called, but where are you hearing that?
I'm hearing this in the, uh, uh, you know, Hackensack bus depot at a co-cot, I guess it's
a co-cot, I mean, it's not...
Well, a co-cot would never need to use those tones, because that's not how they work.
Well, that's the thing, I think it, maybe it's like a regular payphone line or something,
and they put a co-cot in it or something, I don't know.
Or it could be they just, they just added it to a recording to make it sound more like
a payphone.
I don't know, but when I asked the operator to dial a number, they don't dial, I mean,
they play, you know, the 958 from like the 90s, and that says 2, 7, 9, 3, but I asked
him to dial...
You were giving out the old BAI phone number, did you hear that?
He was giving out the old BAI phone number.
Alex, you did the same thing a few weeks ago.
Wow.
It says, I just asked her, can you dial this number?
It plays that, it plays that recording saying the number that I asked to dial.
So, that 890s old analog recording, I don't know why.
I'm going to record that, I'm going to, when the time I go there, I'm going to actually
record it, I mean, I don't know how I'm going to do it, I'm just going to like, you know,
record a video, but like, just the audio part and kind of play you that.
Yeah, I talked to a long distance company earlier that doesn't understand long distance.
AT&T, when I dialed...
I'm telling a story.
I was telling a story.
So, basically, I called a long distance company, because there was a problem with one of our
long distance accounts, and they told me to dial 1-700-555-4141.
That's the old number that you would call to find out what your long distance company was.
I don't know if that number still works.
I haven't called that number in decades, but they seem to think it works, and when I called
it, you know, I got, this call can't be completed, it has dialed.
So, they're telling people to call numbers that don't work anymore.
And, yeah, so I wound up having to speak to about four different representatives, just
to get to the point of, yeah, it's not working.
Please fix it.
This is your job.
When I asked you, they said they're AT&T, but they can't do anything.
Like, you know, did they have a vacation, a call, a call, a person, a person, or, you
know, I asked for, I said, can I place an overseas call?
They said, oh, I just do domestic calls.
Wow.
Well, you have to have special, the specialities, you know?
So, maybe next week I'll have a recording that, you know, maybe I can play you.
All right.
I look forward to that, but thank you for the call this week.
By the way, when, during the political season, I, um, you get texts from political things
like political ads, but they're different phone numbers, like, you know, you get texts, but
then you block the number, and then you get another text from another number.
We're going to go around the room, everyone's going to try to sign off with Rebel, and whoever
is successful, uh, gets the prize.
I tried and I failed just now.
You're cutting in, I can't hear you.
Yeah, see, that's what he'll say to me.
But, Kyle, you're next, and you can't just hang up on it, you have the receiver in your
hand, I see that look in your face.
Uh, but try to just, you know, say, say good night and have it go well.
Oh, good night, Rebel.
Thanks for your call.
And, uh, we'll talk to you soon.
Okay, Kyle, I couldn't hear Emmanuel, but okay, bye.
Yeah.
He has to hang up.
He has to hang up.
A lot of people are making old terminals, like old people, you're talking about making
old technology and making them work.
How are we hearing him again?
Did I leave?
Is he calling a different phone?
He's got YouTube on, and that's the delay.
We're that far delayed?
That's a while.
That's a long time.
Hang on.
He's still there, Kyle.
I think you might have failed.
I don't know why you're delayed, but...
Yeah, you see, he's still there.
But, uh, you know, didn't...
Okay, so Rob, now it's your turn.
Rebel, it's been good speaking with you, but, uh, we're gonna move on.
Have a good night.
Okay.
Okay.
See you next week.
He's still there.
Oh, he hung up.
Rob, you win.
Wow.
Hell yeah.
You're the champion.
You're the, you're the, you're the overtime bouncer.
That was a good conversation.
That's, that's your role now.
Okay, so, call line's open.
Next call.
802-321-4225.
You can comment about something, uh, we just spoke about.
You can elaborate on that, or on something we talked about earlier on the radio, or
earlier, some of the stories that we brought up, right, to repair stuff, um, anything, everything.
Stuff you have hacked, that you would like to hack, that got hacked, uh, and, uh, or your
story.
Maybe, maybe you have an interesting pathway to the world of telecommunications, or computers,
or technology in some way, and you want to share what that journey's been like, you could
call us, you could share here, and, uh, yeah, we'll listen and ask you questions.
And while you're at it, uh, you might want to go, uh, support WBAI, our radio home, and
keep it going, uh, go to buddy.wbai.org to figure out how you can do that, um, any amount
you want to give.
If you want to give a one-time donation or a recurring donation, which, uh, means a great
deal to us, buddy.wbai.org, be part of what keeps us being able to do this whole thing
at all.
Because I, I think, I, I think, uh, I speak for everyone when I say, if we didn't have
the WBAI show, we definitely wouldn't be doing the YouTube show.
You can't have an after show if there's no show to after.
That's very true.
That is true.
Yeah, this is a really cool way to interact, so I won't slow that up.
One more ring, and we'll answer this call.
And good evening, you're on Off the Hook Overtime.
Go ahead.
Hi, gang, Tim in Connecticut.
How you doing?
Tim, I hope you've, um, uh, calmed down a bit with that violent rhetoric of, uh, what
you were saying before.
Well, you said connecting the phone, and I just brought the images of, you know, punching
it down into a 66 block to get it going.
Uh, you know, you don't have to repeat the, the ugly language, but, uh, it's, uh, you know,
I'm sorry.
You were using a connecting tool.
I, I'm enabling, I'm enabling, I know that, and, uh, I will do better myself.
So what's, what, what, what's new up there in Connecticut?
Oh, nothing much, just a little colder, that's all.
Yeah, cold.
We didn't get any snow.
Cold is good.
We had a, we had a snow flurry yesterday.
I've never been scared of a snow flurry before, but this was a mean one.
And, uh, it's, uh, it bodes well for the winter.
It was like a mini squall.
Yeah, but you know where you live, you know, so.
Yeah, you're geared up.
No matter what.
The only question is when.
Everybody's kind of geared up for it.
Well, it didn't happen the last couple of years, that's for sure.
Not much, anyway.
But I hear, tonight you might be able to see the Northern Lights, I hear, so, uh, keep your eyes open.
Right, yeah.
I did want to make a mention about, uh, thermostats, since I had a programmable Honeywell thermostat
that would lose its configuration, or it would suck batteries dry, it'd just go crazy.
And eventually I just pulled it down off the wall and put on one of the old Mercury turn it to make it get hot.
Uh-huh.
And I've been just happy with that thing.
Yeah, but you know, if you find yourself away from home, and you say, hey, you know what,
I don't want to be heating my house when I'm not there, uh, you'd have to come home to do that.
Whereas.
Well, I turn it down before I leave.
Yeah, but if you forget, if you forget to do that, you know.
And my punishment is that I forgot.
And that you have to pay a huge amount, and that you're, you're burning fossil fuels, and a lot of, you know,
we all wind up paying the price.
That's a good way to burn it in your memory.
You know, a speeding ticket will tell you to take your foot off the accelerator.
Uh-huh.
That's true, too.
That's true, too.
But, you know.
But if they shut down all the cameras, because they're just starting speed cameras up here in Connecticut.
Uh-huh.
And I don't know if my detecting device in my vehicle will see those yet.
Well, Waze usually tells you where they are.
Yeah, I haven't had a problem, haven't needed to have a problem.
I need to just sort of drive through that town at the speed limit and see what happens.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I got to say that having a lot more cameras on the roadways has really led, I think, to a certain rebelling with the way people destroy their license plates.
I don't know if you've noticed that yet, but...
That's not just cameras.
That's tolls as well.
Yeah, and in general...
Absolutely on tolls.
I didn't notice that as much years ago, and it's the norm now.
It's not like there's a couple people doing it.
There's a lot of people doing it.
Just basically removing the reflective surfaces from the plate, grinding off the paint, damaging it, putting things over it to obscure parts of the lettering or changing the coloring of the text that's on it.
I noticed a guy in New York investigating that.
He found that a lot of cops were doing that.
Yeah, in the city, too.
Yeah, in, like, parking and other situations.
Totally.
But it's like, you know, the more you're recording and capturing that information, the more people are going to try to take steps to make that a little bit harder.
Because they're aware that that recording and that kind of stuff's taking place.
And there's also the sort of stoplight cameras.
I've noticed there's effects to that.
And, you know, just having them to solve one thing might lead to unforeseen consequences.
So here we are with less legible license plates that might need to be noted in other circumstances.
And people are basically feeling an environment of permissiveness around destroying the legibility of them because their privacy is so invaded otherwise with all this sort of surveillance.
So I don't know.
What happens if that becomes a pull-overable offense, having a license plate that's not readable?
You know, okay, so the cop's going to pull you over.
Won't be able to read your license plate, but he will be able to read your license if you have one.
And there's all kinds of ramifications for that.
But so I think, you know, the more it's enforced.
If you cannot read your license plate, they can pull you over.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, you know, if you're doing this, you know, to get out of any kind of responsibility, well, that's not responsible behavior by its own definition.
So, yeah, I would expect them to do that.
But if I have a three in my license plate and I make that into an eight to avoid tolls and things like that.
Or if you just get a license plate that's like I-1-1-I-I, you know, it's impossible for them to tell.
They would need a license plate reader to differentiate O's from Zeros and things like that.
That's an idea.
Yeah.
I just realized, I remember my first license plate number.
It was 429-GXO.
Why do I remember that?
Why do I remember that?
That was a long time ago.
And, yeah, if anyone could find me based on that.
When we moved into Connecticut, we had tolls on the Merritt Parkway and things like that.
And you had to have a front toll plate as well as your rear automobile plate.
And every year they would change colors and people would just paint the plate the current color.
Wait, every year you get a different license plate?
No, no, no.
It was a toll plate for the parkway.
What's a toll plate?
It was a plate that you could buy from the state that would allow you to, before they
had electronic tolls.
Where would you pull?
When they'd go through the booth, you just, they saw the color of your plate.
That was your toll plate.
You would go by, you didn't have to throw coins in a basket or anything like that.
Weird.
Okay.
And where would this plate be located in your car?
On the front of your car.
On the dashboard or by the license plate?
Wherever the person in the booth could see it.
Oh, interesting.
But you still had to pay the toll on top of that, right?
Well, theoretically you would pay a discounted price to get the plate from the state.
And what they found out was people, the next year, instead of getting another plate, they
would just paint it the color of the plate that was issued that year.
Weird.
One year it would be brown, next year it might be blue, it might be red, et cetera.
But isn't that an extra toll on top of the toll that you're paying?
That would be a special name.
I have no idea of buying the toll plate as you paid your tolls for that year.
Oh, I see.
Well, how do they know how many you paid for the upcoming year or did it bill you at the
end of the year?
It was one price for the plate.
So you could go through as many times as you want?
If you bought it in November, it was the same price as if you bought it in January.
Yeah, does that mean you can go through the toll as many times as you wanted through
the year?
That's correct, yes.
So what did it cost?
Oh, geez, I don't even know.
I just knew where they were, so I didn't go through them.
Wow.
Wish I had known about that system.
All right.
Well, that's my input for right now.
Let's get some new people on the line and I'll abandon this call.
Okay.
You won't have to pass me around.
All right.
No, no, we wouldn't think of it.
Have a good night.
Have a good one, gang.
Good hearing from you.
Take care.
All right.
Wow.
802-321-4225.
Only on for a few more minutes.
So if you want to give us a call, please do so.
Again, we're not on next week because we are doing a call-in show on BAI and we only do
the one hour when we do that.
The toll plate stuff reminds me of the, I remember my family used to have a sticker to
park at like beaches and parks and stuff that you needed and there would be a different
color sticker every year.
Yeah, that's a parking sticker.
I understand that.
It's just a toll going through, you know, on a road, having something you could use for
the entire year and not pay anything else.
So like, I guess you would buy this if you were going to use it enough times to make it
worth it, like the unlimited MetroCard used to be.
Wow.
All right.
Well, that's something.
I think we have another call coming in.
802-321-4225 in case this one goes south.
And good evening.
You're on off the govertime.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
I was listening to the gentleman from Connecticut.
Tim from Connecticut, yes.
Yeah, what he was talking about reminded me of something that I heard about last week
that in Connecticut, they have something they call a car tax.
Have you heard about this stuff?
A car tax?
Like the tax you pay.
No.
How does it work?
So you just, you pay this tax like every month or every year in addition to everything
else.
Like we don't have that in New York, but it's some type of a flat rate you pay for your tax
every, or your car every year.
In addition to registration and all of that, you pay a car tax.
And then what that does is they don't have as many tolls in Connecticut, like the way
they do in New Jersey and New York.
So that kind of like covers for that.
All those tolls they don't have.
They don't collect a lot of tolls, a lot of money from tolls and stuff like that.
Yeah, but I just thought it was weird.
If I drive into Connecticut, you know, from New York, I don't pay that tax and I don't
pay the tolls because they don't exist.
Yeah, exactly.
So thank you, Tim, for paying for that because apparently we don't have to do that.
I've never heard of it.
I didn't know about this.
So when...
No, it's just weird.
How do they bill you?
Is it through the Department of Motor Vehicles?
Is it through the...
Yeah, Department of Motor Vehicle.
Like the same way you got to pay your, you know, like in New York, you have to renew your
registration.
Over there, you got to, you have to renew your registration, but you also got to pay this
car tax every year.
Do you, well, you do it at the same time you do your registration or do they bill you
every month?
Exactly, yeah.
Okay.
At the same time, yeah.
All right.
You got to pay this car tax.
Well, you could sort of fool yourself into saying, well, it's part of the registration.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's just weird.
It is weird.
I just thought it was just kind of a strange way to operate.
You know, it's weird.
There are so many states that don't require inspection, and there are states like New York
that really do.
And I don't understand how that even is compatible these days.
But a lot of those states that don't require inspection, though, they're like rural states.
They're not states like with a lot of congestion.
Not all of them.
You know what I mean?
Not all of them.
Anybody have something to say here?
Go ahead, Kyle.
Oh, I just wanted to elaborate on what the caller was pointing out that, and just basically
wonder aloud if that scheme actually works, you know?
If there's less tolls and this flat rate, like does that actually serve their roadways?
Or is there a downside to it?
I don't know.
We'll have to maybe talk to some more people from Connecticut to see if that...
Maybe I prefer that.
In New Jersey?
I mean, I'm in New Jersey, and there's a toll everywhere.
There's like 100 tolls.
You drive 10 feet, there's a toll.
Yeah.
You know?
Well, they're little.
They're tiny tolls.
They're like, you know, 75 cents or something.
And yeah, they have a lot of them on like the Garden State Parkway or whatever.
Exactly.
The Turnpike.
There's a ton of them.
Yeah.
It slows people down.
So they have to slow down for that.
I imagine it takes EasyPass, too, though.
They do.
They do take EasyPass, also.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I was going to ask you guys, though.
What do you think about this, the Epstein file?
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Oh, gosh.
About what happened today?
Yeah, that's what I'm curious about.
Maybe somebody can answer this for me, is the Democrats had all this stuff, and they
waited until now to release it.
Why didn't they release it in the middle of the shutdown?
That's what I was thinking.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm glad they released it, but what the hell are they waiting for?
Come on.
If you have this, release it the day you get it.
But at the very least, release it when, you know, you are making a lie in the sand as
far as standing up for what you believe in.
That's a great way to show it.
Yeah.
And if Trump is really in those files, why didn't Biden release it himself when they
were running for election?
If there was something there, why didn't they do that?
How long have they had these files for?
I don't know who got them first.
I'd like to know more.
You know, but anyway, that's just my thoughts.
I enjoyed the show today.
Thank you.
Thanks for calling.
Take care.
Alex, it sounded like you had something to say.
It looked like you had something to say.
Well, I had a question.
I've been at a conference all day, so I didn't see any news about the Epstein files that came
out.
So can somebody explain to me what happened?
And maybe to others who aren't as...
You're familiar with the phrase smoking gun.
Yeah.
There's like, there was a dump of emails.
That's the short answer.
Well, I got to hang up the phone.
Yeah, it was some, it was, you know, a release.
Yeah.
I guess a dump is a good word for it as well.
But basically it showed Trump was complicit and that he clearly knew about what was going
on.
He spent time with one of the victims of child trafficking, ours, and was talked about by
Epstein himself and others.
Because, I mean, you know, of course, Republicans are going to try and spin this into something
not guilty in any way or innocent somehow.
And you just have to realize they will do that for anything these days.
It doesn't matter anymore.
But clearly, as human beings, if we look at this, we'll see that's not right.
It's just not right.
And I think we would say that about anybody, regardless of their political affiliations.
You know, I think that's where we draw the line and we say, you know, you're a terrible
human being.
I know because we've said that about many people on the other side of the aisle.
So I don't know, Kyle, do you know more about it than I do?
Because I only learned a little bit now.
Well, I've just observed a little bit in the last couple of hours.
And it just, it seems like it is something, I don't know what strategy there might be,
or I don't want to speculate on that really, but it's what happened as far as information
being put out and whether why or what the timing of it is.
I can only wonder.
I'm right there with anybody else that has a pretty good imagination about it.
But there are, it looks like a lot of people going through them now, as we would expect.
And this, as something that the Democrats are putting forth or that was leaked, is of
bipartisan interest.
So to whatever end, I mean, we'll see how it's spun or what people make of it and what
kind of truth is in it.
And there's just a huge court of public opinion that is going to be using tools, using searching
and trying to corroborate and correlate this stuff with other information about the time
period and what was going on and some of the victims at play and involved here and what
might be missing, you know, what else there might be that has not yet been released.
So I guess, I guess we're going with this now, as far as just trying to like explain and
get the narrative right about who these people are that are running the country now.
Yeah, Alex, I suggest if you want to see some analysis about this or learn more about this,
that you tune into a channel called MS Now, because I think they have a pretty in-depth coverage.
Um, interesting.
Yeah, I'm reading about it now.
Do you get MS Now?
No, I don't.
Oh, you should.
You should.
You definitely should.
Is it MSN?
Is it like...
MS Now.
M-S-N-O-W.
MS Now.
Yeah, I can't believe you...
I feel like it's some kind of trick or something that I'm going to be...
Yeah, what kind of trick do you think I'm playing?
It's the name of the network.
I don't know.
For God's sake.
It just feels like it, you know?
Uh-huh.
I don't trust you over there.
Yeah.
Well, that's wonderful to hear.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, you should know that by now.
On this, the day after Remembrance Day.
Yeah, that's right.
Exactly.
So, what I'm trying to research here is where, or rather from where, these emails came.
They came from Jeffrey Epstein.
Yeah, but how do they get them?
How do they get any of them?
Yeah.
So, that's...
But I'm reading here, apparently, they were subpoenas.
Part of the...
They were subpoenas attendant to the formal investigation that were served on the Epstein estate.
Yeah.
And so, some of it contradicts the recorded testimony that was made from Ghislaine Maxwell.
Only the part where they're speaking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wait, wait, what are you saying?
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there.
Well, something else really weird happened today, too, because the Republicans released
a bunch of Epstein files as well in response.
I think these are the good Epstein files, the ones that don't make Trump look bad.
But, you know, I guess everything that doesn't mention him makes him not look bad.
But the stuff that does mention him, that's what the Democrats released.
Yeah, this is going to be going on for a while.
And...
Yeah.
This seems ridiculous.
I don't understand why the...
What the timing significance of today is.
These were emails, obviously, sent before Epstein passed away in some way.
But it also explains why now, I was in an elevator earlier today at this conference, and some
woman entered the elevator, and she was talking really loudly about the Epstein, about how she
didn't believe that Epstein killed himself and all this.
And I'm wondering, like, where did this come from?
Now I understand why, that she was privy to the news that I was not privy to.
You could have just asked her.
Of course, you probably would have missed the show, but...
I just thought she was like a, you know, one of these people obsessed with Epstein, and
you know, come talking into an elevator loudly about it.
But now it's all starting to make sense.
We're all being forced to be obsessed with Epstein right now, I guess.
So, yeah.
But how does this then square with, like, you know, what was it, Pam Bondi saying there
were no Epstein files, when all of a sudden both sides...
Oh, I know this one.
Pam Bondi is a fucking liar.
How about that?
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's your opinion, of course, right?
Well, it's provable with all kinds of facts.
So, you know, set me up.
I'll be happy to do it.
Our phone line is open.
There you go.
Yeah.
Well, we have only a couple of minutes left.
So our phone line is open for those couple of minutes.
802-321-4225.
And then it's going to close up tight like a clam again for the next week.
Well, I couldn't think of anything else, Kyle.
What else am I supposed to close it up as?
The hood of a car?
What?
Get in there.
Give us a call.
802-321-4225.
Or toll free.
833-755-2600.
I believe still works.
Thanks to our pal, Lucky225, who was mentioned earlier by our guest, Cody.
He was name dropped on the show.
Wow.
It's a small world.
It really is.
What's kind of interesting to me, though, about these emails, having researched it a tiny little bit now, it seems like the documents come from between 2011 and 2019.
2011 is going back pretty far.
So, it's interesting that the estate still had access to these emails.
And I'm wondering, like, you know, in what account it was.
Was it a Gmail account?
There are email addresses given out, and one is a Gmail account.
Oh, really?
Okay.
Well, there you have it.
Yeah.
And I guess that's another avenue that these investigations should consider with respect to whom to subpoena or which entities to subpoena.
Well, it was very clear that Epstein has something on Trump, and he was talking about, you know, him remaining quiet.
Yeah.
He has something about the dog that won't bark or something?
Yeah, it was a weird phrase.
Like, Trump is the dog that won't bark.
It was a Hound of the Baskervilles reference, I think.
It was, yes, except I don't know the reference exactly, what it means.
And then it said something about police chief after that, and I don't know what that was all about.
It was really, really weird.
Well, it's alleged that Epstein used blackmail routinely, so maybe that's the angle that they're...
Well, he had a lot to blackmail people about, so...
Right, but implemented it as part of his business practice.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, you have to fund it somehow, and with him, blackmail is the way he did it.
So, yeah, it's disgusting.
But that's where we are right now.
Well, what would be interesting to me, though, is...
Okay, so on one hand, you can subpoena the estate and obtain these materials from the estate.
But if the estate got them not from, like, a local copy of the messages that were on a hard drive,
and they got them from, let's say, Google, and just accessed a Gmail account and then downloaded the images...
I'm sorry, downloaded the messages, then that would mean that Google would still have access to these messages as well.
So, in order to ensure that they weren't abridged and that they're accurate and complete,
I would suggest that the committee then send another subpoena over to Google for the entire contents of that particular mailbox,
and then compare that with the release.
And that would be a way to really determine whether or not anything has been misleadingly released or was abridged in any way.
And then, separately, if the estate still has access to these particular accounts,
I would also think that the estate would also have access to certain devices, machines, computers, etc.
And the committees investigating the Epstein-related issues should also send subpoenas to the estate for those particular devices,
which could then be forensically imaged, and then the data could be released as well.
So, if the estate is cooperating with subpoenas, that's interesting and opens up, I think,
what could be a treasure trove of really important and interesting and perhaps really trenchant communications.
Well, you know, I'm almost certain that they would have thought to subpoena Google.
I mean, you know, Gmail is right there.
Any lawyer worth their salt would certainly think, yeah, let's subpoena Google.
I am curious, though, about the Epstein estate.
You know, it's been how many years.
Why would they still have old devices with, you know, data on it?
Why would they be interested in cooperating in the first place?
Well, I'll tell you why they probably still have them.
Because if they get rid of them and they know that they might be subject to legal process,
then that could be considered perhaps contempt of Congress.
If there's a formal investigation and they start destroying documents and records, that would be very bad.
What if somebody who doesn't know destroys it?
If somebody doesn't know, then that would be okay.
So, all they have to do is get somebody working for them that doesn't know anything and ask them to clean up.
Well, you can't do something through a third person that you shouldn't be able to do through yourself, right?
So, if you ask them to do that and you acknowledge that you shouldn't be asking them to do that, then you'd still be liable.
No, you don't ask them to break the law.
You ask them to clean up.
And you say, oh, my God, what did you do?
That's not what I meant.
And then you have a culpable deniability.
I've been down this road so many times.
A culpable deniability, you know, and you say, oh, my God, that wasn't the intention, but it's your fault, not mine.
And you walk.
Yeah, but maybe these, you know, devices or something like that, maybe they're being held in a lawyer's office or in some kind of escrow or something like that,
because if they're highly relevant to some kind of investigation, they should be sequestered or squared away.
Absolutely.
You know, I just hope it all comes out.
But honestly, for our people, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
This guy could have burned down an orphanage on Christmas Eve.
They will find a positive spin to it.
I know.
Yeah.
It's shocking.
It's sickening.
It's sickening.
And the Democrats go the other direction where they throw themselves under the bus before the bus is even scheduled to arrive.
You know, it's ridiculous.
You know, they had this lockdown won and they gave up.
They gave up while they were winning.
So I don't know what to say about them.
I wish there were somebody else that knew how to fight.
You know, maybe maybe a young, charismatic leader of a city.
But I don't know.
I'm just fantasizing.
All right.
Don't get me started.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
Don't get me started.
I'm not taking the bait at 9.04 p.m.
I'm over here.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But let me just ask you this question I asked on the show last night.
If there were eight Mondanis in the Senate, do you think they would have caved?
I think you know the answer.
What do you mean?
Caved to what?
Caved to what?
The Democrats caved a couple of days ago, you know?
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Oh.
Oh, I don't know.
I mean, that's a crazy hypothetical.
I think you do know.
I think you know he wouldn't.
You might not have agreed with everything he did, but he wouldn't have caved.
I don't know.
I really have no idea.
I mean, but also we have nothing to go on because there's no background, no experience, no record.
Well, you're about to get a whole lot of that.
You're about to get a whole lot of experience.
And you can condemn that.
You can condemn the experience once it happens.
But I don't think you can condemn the experience that doesn't yet happen.
But you're like making up Mondani fan fiction here.
Oh, you're making up Mondani horror shows.
I'm basically saying there's no record on which to be.
Let's sit back, get some popcorn and watch the show and see what happens.
That was my whole issue.
And, you know, just by the way, I thought about our argument about this last week.
And I think it just really boils down to the fact that we have different criteria for political candidates, you and I.
And that, you know, you're willing to go and kind of, I think, wager on somebody because of their political ideologies.
Whereas I, who, you know, have kids in school and, you know, need garbage and things to be picked up and I want my city to be run efficiently.
I can't afford to do that.
I want somebody who's a really efficient administrator that has a record of achievement and confidence.
And they're just different criteria.
And so I think the arguments that we made to each other last night or last week are like two ships passing in the night.
But, yeah, I mean, that's basically what I think it boils down to.
We have different criteria for political office.
Are you open to being surprised?
Of course I am.
And I hope I'm pleasantly surprised.
I'm used to being surprised.
I live in the city.
I ride the subway, you know, thankfully not every day because it's a damn set.
Look, I don't think you're alone in your concerns, Alex.
Yeah, of course not.
But, Alex, you know, this is a guy who ran on the city not being affordable.
So either he's going to just toss all that out the window or he's going to be completely unable to handle that.
But, you know, I just see a passion in him I haven't seen in other candidates.
I've seen slickness.
I'm a little tired of slickness.
It got us atoms.
And Cuomo, it worked for a while in New York State, but then it stopped working when his personality started to drown him and everybody else.
So I'm willing to give the new guy a try.
But, Gila, go ahead.
So I'm willing to give the new guy a try, but I do kind of want to see what he does.
So a reminder to everyone that he's not going to be mayor for another month and a half.
So let's just, you know, hold off for a second.
I did want to share something that was popped into the chat.
Can I just say one thing?
Before what he did yesterday, did you see what he did yesterday?
He skipped the Veterans Day parade to go and feed veterans in a home.
What do you think about that?
He skipped the political thing and went and did the human thing.
I think that's lovely.
Right.
Adams was at the parade.
Of course he was.
The thing I wanted to share, though, was something that was shared in the chat 20 minutes ago now from at XX-0J4CO.
We'd need to get the names back.
A report from Seattle 2600 meeting.
It was really good.
Oh, OK.
There were like six or seven people there.
We talked about self-hosting things like Billy.
Oh, no, no, no.
You just walked into it.
It said six or seven.
I'll do it again.
Oh, my God.
No, that counts.
That counts.
It does not count.
Nobody would.
It does.
The or is the key.
You don't get the newsletter.
You don't know.
We talked about self-hosting things like Jellyfin and Link Warden.
Lamented meetup charging $40 a month now.
RIP.
Kyle, stop it.
I'm sorry.
He's still doing the 6-7 thing.
Oh, my God.
Now I got to do it again.
They what now?
40 who?
Apparently, meetup is now charging $40 a month.
For what?
I don't know.
I'm just reading.
All they do is list.
They listed our meetings, and they listed them wrong, and we had to correct them, and they're
charging people for ... Okay.
You know what?
I don't want to get into this, but you should ...
Organize your subscription prices.
Yeah, but what are you subscribing?
I'm not going to get into this.
I'm not going to get into this.
This is a whole topic conversation.
Their business model, I think, is a little bit more fluid than it has been.
So, yeah, there are costs.
So, what is the tie-in to that, Gila?
I'm a little bit lost.
Something about the Seattle meetings, charge, and ...
It was about the Seattle meetings, and that was one of the things that came up last week
was because meetup is now charging significantly more on a monthly basis.
They're probably not sharing in the meetup anymore.
But why do they need that?
They have the listing that the magazine provides.
It's online.
It's reachable to the same number of people for free.
This is something to complement that.
But yeah, alternatives to that.
That sounds like a great thing to be talking to people about, what works for them, what they
would like to see.
I've seen a number of different groups move from different service providers.
There are spaces and places that have used the same software.
Oh, I know what they're doing.
They're charging to list in their listing.
Yeah, yeah.
It's to get eyeballs, right?
So, if you want to augment what's already in our publication or on the site, these are
services you can use.
But you have to be very sober about what the service is actually going to cost because
it might be more trouble than it's worth if you can find a good alternative.
Well, it probably didn't cost anything to start with.
That's how they get people.
Yeah.
First taste is free.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And so, they're kind of following that path.
Go ahead.
Yes.
No, that's what I'm saying.
So, the commenter in question said, we aren't paying $40 a month.
We don't use it.
We used to get a lot of people coming from Meetup.
Okay.
Well, you can reach the hacker community in many ways and you don't need a commercial service
to do it.
And if you find an alternative that does not cost that kind of money that maybe we haven't
mentioned or haven't thought of, or it's something that everybody knows about already, like email
or whatever, but you found a cool way to use it instead of that and it yields some results,
please tell us so we can share with other places that have meetings.
A great way to get people is to get a news story written about your meeting.
You know?
Totally.
Do something cool and get the media to show up.
You know, you're not supposed to be hiding from the media anyway.
So, you know, celebrate the meeting and tell people what you're doing and make it sound
really cool.
Like, the thing we talked about tonight with the Nest Thermometers, that kind of project,
that's the kind of thing that people are interested in and it'll inspire more people to participate.
I would say show up in general, please.
Show up for yourself, for your family, for your friends, for your community and people helping
you with projects.
Do it for your country.
Do it, yeah, for all of that.
Yeah.
Do it for the lulz.
Yeah.
Or just for fun.
Totally.
But show up, participate, shake it up, change it up.
Speaking of participation, I think we might be at the end of this evening's proceedings.
Oh, we still are?
Or we're there about.
I thought we signed off 10 minutes ago.
Yeah.
Was there any other stuff?
Any other questions or things?
I hit the button, but I just didn't hit it hard enough.
It's O-T-H at 2600.com.
That's the one.
Yes.
This is overtime.
And I got to say, overtime's over.
Yes.
No more overtime.
We're done for this week, and we won't be on next week.
We'll be doing the show next week, and we will be taking phone calls on WBAI.
And Alex, I believe you're going to be somewhere exotic next week yet again?
Yes, that's correct.
You don't have to tell us.
Yeah.
No, I will be, hopefully, in Buenos Aires next week.
That's in Argentina, for those who don't know.
It's in Argentina.
So it will be a different season, but it will be the same time.
So it's the same time zone down there.
It is.
But it's spring.
Exactly.
Okay, you're going to have to look for things.
You know, look up at the sky.
Look up at the sky.
See if the stars are different.
You should see the Southern Cross and other constellations you can't see up here.
And they don't really get snow in the winter anyway, so I'm not sure how much of a difference
it'll make, but it'll be cool.
Yeah, not over there.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's a cool city.
It'll be fun to do the show from Buenos Aires.
You have to have steak when you're in Buenos Aires.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, I think a lot of it.
With white tablecloths, they're very big on that.
Yeah, yeah.
Lots of steak and Malbec and, you know, the food is very good down there.
I haven't been to Buenos Aires in 15 years, so this will be fun.
Cool.
All right, folks.
With that, we're going to leave it, and we will see you next time.
Good night.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.