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We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
One diddley-bomb for the best, it's back the worst.
I hope that's understood.
One diddley-bomb!
One diddley-bomb!
One diddley-bomb!
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is off the hook.
Emanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
Hi, I'm here.
Out in Signal Land, we have Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
We have Gila.
Hello.
And we have Alex.
You do? Hello.
In the middle of all the mayhem as usual.
Okay.
Absolutely.
I just cannot believe it.
Is he getting away?
I don't know.
I don't know.
It's always around him.
Yeah, so it's been extremely busy for us.
In addition to doing radio, we're putting out magazines, organizing conferences, and having meetings, and just having adventures, and in Alex's case, running from the law.
And it's been a busy week in the country as well.
We're going to talk about that a little bit.
But we're also going to open up phone lines today for WBAI.
It's going to be one of our special call-in segments for the radio station.
And that means we're not doing overtime tonight, so the show is only on from 7 to 8 here on 99.5 FM.
And as long as we're talking about radio, let's remind everybody to pledge to the radio station because that is how we're able to communicate.
That's how we're able to share information and just do this thing we do.
And we're just one hour in a week on WBAI.
This radio station has so many different programs, so many diverse viewpoints, and just ways of getting messages out, ways of exposing people to new ideas, new music, new perspectives.
So who would like to give out the information as to how people can support the radio station?
You can support the radio station by going to buddy.wbai.org and throwing in with what you can contribute.
If you want to become a BAI buddy, that gives you the ability to set up a recurring donation that will automatically happen.
Just like your Patreons and other ongoing donations of things that you like to support, that sort of thing is very meaningful to us.
And it gives us something that, in the world of non-commercial, community-sponsored broadcasting like this, is really rare, which is a dependable income.
If you don't want to set up a recurring donation, that is cool.
You can donate whatever you want at buddy.wbai.org.
You can also do so over the phone with the BAI pledge phone number 833-WBAI-NYC.
That's 833-922-4692.
And just tell them that you're making your donation.
Tell them that your favorite show is off the hook.
So that means a lot to us here.
It shows the station that our listeners care about our program and our station and our airwaves.
So do that, 833-WBAI-NYC or buddy.wbai.org.
Since 1960, this radio station has been on the air as a non-commercial radio station serving the needs of the people of New York City and beyond.
And before that, it was a commercial radio station at 99.5 FM because we're right in the middle of the commercial dial.
Most non-commercial stations are below 92.
There are some exceptions, and we're a great big one.
We're right smack in the middle.
But I defy anybody to name a radio station in New York City, where there are a lot of radio stations, one that has been around as long as we have with basically the same format.
And our format is no real format.
It's basically free form.
It's basically free speech.
It's whatever comes to mind.
It's diverse.
It's variety.
But it's something that is very, very needed and very popular amongst, you know, it might not show in Arbitron ratings.
But as far as something that you remember, you're not going to remember a radio show that you heard on a top 40 station in 10 years.
But you will remember a radio show that you heard on WBAI in 50 years, I'll bet.
And that's why we ask you to support the station, because, you know, in addition to that, we don't have commercials to dull your senses and to basically keep you from thinking about anything important.
We're always talking about important things, controversial things.
And sure, sometimes it's annoying.
Sometimes you don't want to hear about it.
Well, you know, there's all kinds of buttons you can press to do something else if you're not in the mood to hear the particular topic of the hour.
But for many of us, that's the only opportunity to talk about it, you know, because everybody else is just busy selling soap or playing crappy music.
And we like to think that we're doing something a little bit more significant.
And people know about this radio station all around the world.
All around the world, people know about WBAI.
And I know this because, you know, every now and then we have some turmoil.
You know what's going on in the country?
You guys pay attention to this at all?
Washington, D.C., where they do governing and people running for things.
Yeah, there's a bit of a lot of people yelling, getting angry now.
That's happening.
That happens here, too, sometimes.
Sometimes people come in with different ideas and they kind of, you know, shove people out of the way.
Sometimes physically they shove people out of the way.
But usually it's just basically preempting programs or changing schedules.
And it doesn't go over well.
And there's conflict.
And sometimes there's even protests in the street.
So we're familiar with the conflict, you know, and the turmoil and the controversy and democracy and all of that.
It's part of running a place like WBAI.
It's part of the Pacifica network.
And we have to occasionally stand up and voice our opinions.
And, in fact, I believe there's an election this month in the Pacifica realm.
So if you're a listener or a volunteer, a staff member, you get to participate in that.
And that's something that, I'll tell you, you know, the top 40 stations don't give you is that kind of governance.
So, yeah, a lot going on on WBAI.
A lot of reasons to support the place.
And I hope people do.
It's a lot of work to be able to put this together and cooperate with so many different vantages and opinions and directions that the station can go in any given week or any given election cycle, as you're indicating.
And it is really important and unique because I would say, by comparison, a lot of those entities that are conglomerates or other companies just consolidate and take back or sort of relieve people of power instead of asking them periodically,
what do you think about the governance of this particular organization?
So that is it's a little bit of an effort we make.
But it's part of why we're allowed to, you know, persist and and talk about things that we do in the mix of all the other different types of programming.
And that community effort, the work that people put in by donating or coming to meetings or, you know, taking an interest in station or local politics or, you know, community efforts or even, you know, fun events and and ways to get the word out, take care of people and, you know, share what's going on.
And that's all that's all that's all possible because of people participating and putting in a little bit effort for something that's different.
And that's it.
Like, that's the the beauty of it is that we can be unique.
We can direct ourselves in that freeform style and we come up with just fascinating levels of support and staying power in the city as a flagship of the Pacific Pacifica network and people with constantly changing attitudes about what it takes to put this together.
But I think we always end up with something that that really makes it a lasting effort.
And it's sometimes there's pain, but it's it's worthwhile.
And we want you to be a part of that.
Go ahead, Rob.
One thing I always like to remind folks of when we're talking about this station and how unique it is, is the fact of its beginning was so insane and it would never happen again in a million years.
You know, a commercial radio station goes off the air and there are five identical and uninteresting entities willing to step in and just do the more of the same thing.
The the station was a gift from a wealthy person who had a radio station that he was just fooling around with as sort of a hobby, a little vanity project.
And he just gave it to the Pacifica network in 1960.
That would not happen again.
Nobody with that level of disposable income is that nice anymore, it seems.
And there is if if if the AI disappeared off the dial, nothing like this would ever happen again.
Nothing with this family of amazing people behind the mics, behind the scenes who have been keeping the station going for 66 years now.
But also the amazing listeners who have been the only thing that has kept this station running for all those years.
Yeah, I'd like to say that I disagree.
I think there are still nice people out there, even people with lots of money that can do good things.
I think maybe there's a little confusion as to what constitutes good things these days because it doesn't happen that often.
But, you know, the WBAI was donated to Pacifica because this wealthy wealthy guy whose name we really should remember.
It's it's Louis Schweitzer.
Schweitzer. Thank you.
He was out west listening to a Pacifica station that had already been on the air.
In fact, Pacifica has been on the air since 1949.
And that was Lou Hill's legacy.
We can go into detail about all that.
But Pacifica stations were on since then.
And he had heard one of them and he was so impressed that he said, hey, I have a radio station.
I'm going to donate this radio station to Pacifica and they'll have a station in New York City.
And it took quite a bit of convincing when he was calling them to tell them this.
And it took several phone calls.
But eventually he got through and they believed him.
And here we are now here at WBAI, where we have been since 1988 doing Off the Hook in one form or another.
Nobody has ever come up to us and said, you can't do that.
You can't talk about that.
You cannot discuss this topic.
You know, they've had questions, certainly, mostly because they're curious.
They want to know some of the things that we're talking about.
And we talk about some very, very controversial things.
We've we've talked about people who are being imprisoned and trying to get them out and not breaking out.
But, you know, trying to get sentences reduced and things like that.
We're talking about security holes and all kinds of corporate negligence.
And we give out particulars, very specific information.
And it pisses a lot of people off who are very powerful.
There was there was one instance where we were talking about somebody who was imprisoned and we were organizing demonstrations to call attention to the injustices.
And the station got a call.
I'm not sure if it's from the FBI or from the Secret Service, but basically they wanted it to stop.
And the station absolutely refused to do that.
And that was the end of it.
That is how it's supposed to work.
That is how media, journalism, integrity, it all comes together.
You might have seen in the news over the last few days, our friends over at CBS, they're not doing so well.
In fact, a lot of media outlets aren't doing so well recently because we have seen how quickly it can all crumble if you simply cave in to the bullies.
And, you know, I've always known that people are prone to do that.
You can't expect everybody to be able to just stand up to to intimidating tactics.
But you do kind of expect the institutions that you grew up with to have you back.
And what has happened at CBS, especially with with 60 Minutes, it's it's awful.
It's absolutely awful.
But what happened over the past couple of days with a longtime reporter known as Scott Paley, basically standing up to them in a meeting and saying that this is murder.
You are murdering 60 Minutes by putting these people in charge who are simply interested in getting in good with the Trump regime.
And basically, you know, to hell with journalism.
It doesn't matter anymore to say all of that loudly and publicly at a meeting that it later became even more public.
That takes courage.
That's the kind of courage we need more of.
And that's the kind of courage we have had too little of over the past couple of years.
You know, we've seen one network after another just cave in.
We've seen Steve Colbert kicked off the air.
We've seen all kinds of examples of newspapers, basically not running stories that might displease the emperor.
You know, it's things that we never thought we would see.
And it's incredible how quickly that has happened.
Well, it takes somebody like Scott Paley to stand up and inspire people to do more.
And I really, really hope this is the beginning of massive pushback and just kind of a reckoning that if you agree to do what they want you to do, it never ends.
You will not be free from their grip.
They will keep coming back and they will keep wanting more.
And eventually, eventually you will displease them to the point where you become the enemy.
Look at all the Republican politicians that said one critical thing about Trump and now they're out.
You know, they are primary to oblivion.
It doesn't do you any good to play ball.
Now, take the ball and throw it in the right direction.
But do not play ball.
So, I don't know.
You guys have any thoughts on the situation at CBS and what we can learn from that and maybe some inspiration.
And we are going to take phone calls, too.
And I can talk about this the whole hour.
I would love to hear what BAI listeners feel about this as well.
Because I think, you know, all of us have grown up on 60 Minutes in one form or another.
Whether or not we watch the program, we're aware of the program.
I know, Kyle, you have watched that program pretty much all your life.
Absolutely.
That and I think Conan was on before or after when I was starting to learn about, like, social studies and U.S. history.
And then, of course, you have this news magazine.
And after a while, I got into production and photography and things like that.
And I always admired and felt like the, well, the photography and composition and stuff is phenomenal on that program.
And there's really, really talented people behind the camera and the kind, you know, especially under the conditions to get a lot of the stories that they do.
It's something I've always looked up to in the work I do and, you know, any kind of recordings, you know, whether it be audio or other.
But beyond that, it just has been a mainstay.
And to lose it, it just feels like that tide going out before a tsunami or I don't know.
I don't know what the proper analogy is, but it just, it really hits home when you have media alternatives that you can at least, yeah, maybe there's this, the opinions aren't something you agree with or they're wrong patently.
That's been, you know, with the self-production and publishing, it's much easier for people with wrong attitudes or, you know, lies to flourish in this environment.
But at least with alternatives, you don't have to toe the line with this kind of control from the government, which is really anathema.
It's so foreign, so bizarre to us.
Anyway, I could go on and on.
It's really tragic.
And I'm, you know, a critic, but also, you know, I hate to see what they're trying to do, which is really, to me, just erase generations of norms to create the conditions or condition people to accept their rule indefinitely.
And I don't know, I mean, it is, what else does it look like?
Alex, Dan Gila.
I mean, I've got a lot of fond memories of 60 Minutes.
Some of my fondest memories of 60 Minutes, you, you might recall, Emmanuel.
I mean, I don't know if you remember, way back, I'm sure you do, way back when, maybe 1994, perhaps, when Mike Wallace from 60 Minutes came to a 2600 meeting and interviewed you.
Oh, no, you know what?
I plum forgot that Mike Wallace came to one of our meetings.
Of course I remember that.
Look, Alex, do you know, I basically was involved when Kevin Mitnick was in prison.
And we were, we were doing, working with 60 Minutes to do a story about that.
I called CBS, I called the number for 60 Minutes.
And Mike Wallace picked up the phone.
He picked up the damn phone.
I could not believe it, but it was, you know, he was so gracious and so humble.
Like, yeah, here I am.
I'm in my car on a cell phone.
I'm talking to Mike Wallace.
I just called him directly without even knowing I was doing that.
And then, yeah, he came to the meeting and I was on 60 Minutes once.
I think I was in the closing credits, actually, which is kind of weird.
I used to, I wish I still had the VHS tape of that.
I was, I was, he also interviewed me, but they didn't, they didn't use any of my copy during the, the, the actual airing.
I can teach you about soundbites.
I bet you could.
It's media, you got to work on your media, it's media training.
My media training is definitely lacking over there.
Well, I think I was 15 at the time.
So it was, it was probably a little bit different, but in any event, you know, so we've got these, these great memories here.
And now you've got this guy 37 years at CBS, right?
And, and supposedly the trigger was either his insubordination or his refusal to inject falsehoods into, into stories.
And we don't know which is which to be honest, right?
Because this whole thing is so tribalized.
This whole thing for some reason lands on the spectrum of left versus right.
And I, I think it's, it's, it's very, very sad when we don't see the forest for the trees here,
which is that oligarchs are playing poker with basically some of the most treasured media entities and, and most historical news people that we have in this country.
And that's just absolutely wrong.
It's bad government.
It's bad for the first amendment.
It's bad for the people.
It's why we have places like WBAI.
It's why they need to be continually supported.
But it's an, it's an absolutely horrendous situation when we have something like 60 minutes being used as a bargaining chip to curry favor with the president,
because there's a merger about to happen.
It's, it's important.
And, you know, I, it's really something that I worry about that people will simply dismiss CBS as one of the big networks and that, you know, we're not really losing anything.
It's, they're all the same.
They're not all the same.
And, and, and there are instances of pushback that they were involved in, that they're all involved in.
And we have to support that.
It might not be the way we do things.
It might not be on our level.
I think we do a much better job as far as attacking the actual issues.
But this is how the mainstream finds out what's going on.
And if you just write that off and say it, it, none of it matters, you know, it's, it's like writing off an election and not voting because they're all the same.
And look at what you get.
So, uh, you know, when something like this happens, everybody involved in journalism, in broadcasting, in freedom, we all need to stand up.
And we might not agree on everything.
We might not even share the same values on many things, but we can't just let this go unremarked.
I mean, you know, you're talking about corporate takeovers, you know, the Warner brothers is next and, and, and this will be CNN next year.
Probably, you know, you'll have nothing but Fox news networks on the air and, and, and nothing, nothing else to counter that in the mainstream.
BAI will probably survive only because they don't know about us or they don't care about us or they think we're insignificant.
Okay.
Let them think that.
But, um, media is important.
Uh, and, and, and freedom and media is, is so important.
Gila, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Um, so I was thinking when I was certainly, when I was a kid, um, the sounds of CBS owned Sunday, you woke up to the trumpets on Sunday morning and dinner time ticked with 60 minutes.
Um, and I remember being on family vacation and seeing on the front page of the paper in whatever city we were in that Harry Reasoner had died and our family went into mourning because Harry Reasoner, like my parents were very hardcore 60 minutes watchers.
And the thing that bothers me the most about all of this, um, is that Barry Weiss, who decided she was in charge of journalism, who is not a journalist and was never a journalist, um, who said today, I'm only interested in working in a newsroom that is built on trusted mutual respect.
Homegirl never worked in a newsroom, she's an opinion writer, she has no idea what the news is about.
And it is common, it is of a piece, I think, with this whole idea that you don't need experience or knowledge to do stuff, you can just do it.
And her being put in charge of this large journalistic enterprise with no idea what she's doing or talking about, and I will say on a personal level, I've been in communities where people thought she was wonderful and she was amazing.
I am glad that people are beginning to see who and what she actually is.
You can't decide that a professor who gave you a bad grade in college is an anti-Semite because they gave you a bad grade.
She has been trading on this kind of stuff for years.
She is a ghoul, and I hope she gets run out of CBS on a rail.
Well said, well said, and that's, uh, I have not heard that said in other places nearly enough.
Uh, Rob, go ahead, and then we're going to open up the phones.
Yeah, the only thing I'd kind of, uh, I'm not sure I completely agree with is that Barry Weiss is being incompetent.
I think she, there's a good chance she's doing exactly what, uh, she was put there to do, which is help Trump and the powers that be build the mainstream media that they want to have.
Right, because she doesn't know how to be a journalist.
She's an opinion.
She's not there to be a journalist.
She's not there to run a good newsroom.
She's not there to, you know, keep the flagship CBS, uh, you know, news entity, 60 Minutes, as respected and wonderful as it has been in the past.
She is there to do a very different job, I believe, and that job, she's, she's, uh, doing it with flying colors, I think, right now.
And that's pretty much what Scott Pele said, uh, and, um, uh, you know, I think we're, we're all in agreement here that, uh, these people were not brought in to make CBS or 60 Minutes or anything like that, uh, a better place or a bastion of journalism.
Let me ask you about the phone number.
We can keep talking, and hopefully, uh, people can join the conversation.
Uh, it's 802-321-4225, a special phone number, 802-321-4225.
Call that number, and you'll reach us here at Off the Hook.
Go ahead, Alex.
Yeah, one thing to note here, I think, is that if we want to air both sides of the controversy here, which I don't think we really have to, but I would like to know more specifics about what Scott Pele is alleging here.
I mean, I don't know why he hasn't come out with more specifics since this whole thing went down, but I think, I think it would be nice to know more about what specific stories falsehoods were supposedly attempted to be injected into that.
I think that would be really good for the public.
Well, it's been, it's been a day, so I'm sure it'll come out, but, you know, there's been plenty of specifics that have already, uh, been shared as far as stories that have been killed and, uh, uh, you know, the entire senior staff being fired.
But that is a really timely thing, like, the longer we have to sit and wonder, uh, the longer, uh, it can be papered over or sort of misdirected in some way, right?
Is that kind of what you're getting at?
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And, and I also think that, you know, we can't lose sight of the fact here that it's the timing here, right?
You know, this is a billionaire buying a newsroom right before he needs a favor from the government.
I mean, this is crazy.
This is somebody literally cashing in a chip to slide across the table here.
I mean, if you, you stack up enough of these chips in, in one billionaire and one oligarch's hands, and you wake up to what the preppers call the T.O.
Waki, the end of the world as we know it, right?
In terms of freedom of speech, in terms of media ownership, and, and it's not on account of some kind of crazy nuclear event or media or something like that.
It's because of corporate mergers.
These are the types of things that are ruining the world time and time again.
And, and it's not just that we're resistant to change here.
I mean, we're just resistant to the fact that we need more than one voice in the media.
You know, we need, we need alternate viewpoints and we need our listeners to call in.
Yeah.
Where are our listeners?
802-321-4225.
It's a different phone number.
I know it's not the usual BAI phone number.
It's a Vermont area code.
We're not actually in Vermont.
It's all virtual.
8-0-2-3-2-1-4-2-2-5.
We'd love to hear your opinions on this as BAI listeners.
That's extremely important to us.
Now, Gila, you mentioned Harry Reasoner.
Yes.
Somebody on CBS.
I'd like everybody to try and remember somebody who read the news on other networks.
Who wants to do NBC?
Wasn't David Brinkley on it?
Not you.
You did one already.
Just this call.
Dan Rather.
Dan Rather, CBS.
Who has CBS?
I don't know.
Oh, my God.
And Walter Cronkite with CBS.
Yeah, okay, you know CBS.
That's pretty obvious.
So, okay, who is...
Rachel Maddow.
David Brinkley.
All right, David.
Thank you, but it's you again.
Don't you see nobody else seems to know anything?
This is so sad.
Okay.
John Chancellor, NBC, Garrick Utley.
Does nobody remember these people?
Garrick Utley was on the Today Show.
Okay, good for him.
ABC, somebody mentioned Ted Koppel, but there was also...
Sam Donaldson, Peter Jennings.
Howard K. Smith, who was also...
I thought you were going to say Howard Cosell.
He was also on the TV show V, in case anybody cares about that.
PBS, anyone want to do PBS?
McNeil-Lair NewsHour?
Yeah, they had first names.
John and not John.
Robert McNeil.
Darn it.
What a ridiculous name.
And Jim Lair.
Okay, you know, I'm not sure what I'm proving here, just that I can remember.
We have a call.
We have a phone call, and good evening.
You're on Off the Hook on WBAI.
Hey, how's everything?
Everything is...
Well, it's kind of messed up, but...
I was just making sure you had to...
So, here's my description of Barry Weiss and her sense of entitlement from her own background.
She is a Holocaust-denying American princess.
How do you like that?
Well, I don't like that, but that's pretty descriptive.
There you go.
I'm not saying it's something that you like.
That's the way I look at her.
Look, you know, you watch this stuff, and if you're older, like you said, it's amazing,
but I have an idea, too.
So, you know, if ABC really wants to give it to that guy Carr at the FCC, they should poach
all these people and give them editorial independence and let them go at it on ABC and call it something
else.
How's that for an idea?
Absolutely, yeah.
Don't be shut down by this or, you know, just disappear.
Turn up and start and keep doing...
Yeah.
May I ask, where are you calling from?
Scott Pelley is beloved.
People, who do you think people are going to believe?
I saw Scott Pelley's statement about how the meeting went.
Who do you think they're going to believe?
I'm not going to believe Barry Weiss for a second.
I totally agree with what was said.
She's not a journalist.
Not only is she an opinion, I mean, she's a spoiled brat from Pittsburgh, and, you know,
when she went to Columbia, I guess she didn't, you know, she couldn't get enough attention.
And, uh, it's, it's just...
No, you're, you're...
It's wrong.
Yeah, no.
You're right.
I think the reputation is, is really at stake.
And I will, will 60 Minutes survive this?
That's kind of the question I know you were asking too, E.
Thank you for stating that so eloquently.
Can we ask where you're calling from?
Sure, Pearl River.
Where's that?
That's a jersey?
That is, that is, uh, exit 5 off the Palisades Park.
Okay, well, I got the state right.
Okay, thank you for your call.
Let me help you with this.
Wait, wait, I'll tell you this.
Yeah.
Outside of New York City, it is the largest St. Patrick's Day parade in New York State
takes place in Pearl River, New York.
Wait, Pearl River's in New York?
Okay.
I got the state wrong, then.
Okay, well, thanks, uh, thanks for that, uh, geography lesson, and, um, uh, thanks for
your opinions.
And, uh, our phone number remains, 802-3214-225.
What does this have to do with the usual topic of our show?
Because somebody's going to ask us that.
You want to take that one, Alex?
Well, yeah.
I mean, look, this is a vulnerability in the system.
This is some kind of capture of the media through a merger, through corporate acquisitions,
right?
This is an attack on the First Amendment.
This is an attack on the system.
And it's also, I think, illustrative of the fact that it is a problem of centralization.
The more decentralized the media is, the harder it is to control.
And I consider WBAI to be one of those decentralized nodes of the media itself.
We are not beholden to advertisers.
We're not beholden to shareholders.
We're beholden only to the people that are listening to this program right now, the people
that support the program with their own funds to keep us on the air.
Those are the only people to whom we have to answer.
And if, and that makes us a highly decentralized media organization.
There's no capturing WBAI, unlike CBS, ABC, et cetera, who all have these corporate overlords.
They all have to answer at one point or another to shareholders, to a CEO, to advertisers.
There's all these other places where the buck stops.
And that's a vulnerable system.
Absolutely.
And just to bounce off that, we're also keenly aware that speech is an underpinning of the
World Wide Web, of the Internet, of telecommunications.
And it's also something we care deeply about in our pursuits with publishing and sharing about
the hacker and telecommunications world.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
You know, it's super important that people take a stand in any situation that affects their
lives, whether it's just your view of the world or your personal life, your finances,
justice, there are so many things that are being affected adversely today and directly
affected by the things that we're talking about.
But it all goes on without any kind of opposition if we stay silent.
And it takes somebody in a newsroom standing up saying no to start the tide turning.
Now, there's been plenty of people that have refused to back down.
We see them in the late night talk shows.
Unlikely place for heroes.
A hero can be anywhere.
If you stand up to the crap and say, we're not going to take this anymore, somebody is
going to hear that.
Somebody else is going to stand up.
Somebody else will join you.
And that is how you make change.
Yeah, elections are great, but, you know, you got to wait for them.
If you want to prevent the horrors that are happening that we see every day, if you want
to prevent ICE from snatching people off the streets, you have to be loud.
You have to be direct.
You have to make your presence known.
And that takes courage.
It's not easy.
You know, a lot of us are struggling to get by and we don't want to risk things.
And a lot of us have things to risk.
We get that.
But there are also many of us who are quite comfortable, whose words can make a difference.
And I really hope more people wake up and act with courage.
I'm hearing and thinking to myself that these are attacks on your ability to know.
It's sort of a meta aspect of speech and the kinds of things that are going on that are
going badly, shall we say.
This is about knowing all of those things and where or what could be on the horizon that
you should be aware of or where we could be organizing.
The ability to know and have that opposition, but also just know that it's not going well
for others if you're so comfortable.
These resources are integral.
Otherwise, you'll be looking at the world through a filter that really it doesn't have everyone's
best interests in mind.
Right.
And, you know, we have our own criticisms.
You know, we don't agree with 60 Minutes on everything.
Uh, we, we can mock the way they do things.
We can say this story is nonsense, but they also are revealing things at certain points.
You know, remember Trump tried to shut them down because he didn't like the way they edited
an interview.
Something that every journalist does is edit an interview.
That's, that's how journalism works.
Uh, and he wanted to shut that down.
He's coming pretty damn close to shutting it down.
So we have to support the people who are standing up against that and fighting back.
We have another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on WBAI.
Go ahead.
Hi, I'm Mark from Brooklyn.
How are you?
Hey, how you doing?
What's on your mind?
Good.
I just think that this problem goes back a long way.
I mean, I think the Fairness Doctrine, when that was repealed, where, you know, where
you had to produce both sides of the story, um, produce a sort of a, a little, slightly
more objective, you know, point of view was very useful.
And that went by the wayside.
I think Fox was kind of like a psych op when that got started and bought up by Murdoch.
And they just condensed all these, you know, vast numbers of stations all around the country.
Uh, you know, I think they're owned, everything is owned by five corporations.
It's insane.
Yeah.
I actually worked as a broadcast cameraman at CBS.
Um, Oh, wow.
Howard, Howard Stringer.
I picked him up with a, I was a cab driver and I picked him up and he gave me a break.
And, uh, I, I spent 12 years at CNN.
I helped to train a bunch of, you know, journalists there, you know, and I, you know, I, I don't
want to personally attack Scott Pelley, but there's a lot of biased journalism that's been
going on for such a long time.
And I guess maybe it's come through a head, but this has been a 30 year process.
So, well, you know, you can't, you can't really say, you can't really say that journalism
is unbiased because there's always going to be some kind of a bias.
Uh, but to say, to say that, um, uh, you know, reporters and, and networks like CBS
are, you know, far left, like the nonsense we keep hearing, uh, it's just not true.
No, I don't think that's true at all.
I mean, I think, you know, it's interesting, CBS survived on pharma money all during COVID.
I mean, all the money and the propaganda that spun there was just ridiculous.
Yeah.
I was going to point that out.
They're, they're, they're advertisers.
You know, you know, we haven't heard a word from a Russian journalist in this country in
20 years, as far as I know.
I mean, I'm exaggerating, but you know, it's just, uh, well, I mean, these are, these are
valid points.
These are critiques that we can certainly, uh, air.
Uh, but imagine if somebody was telling you not to do that, not to say this to, uh, you
know, keep quiet.
Well, you know, I were, I worked at CNN.
I had to try to get them to read the new Amsterdam news and maybe Caribbean life.
So there was some alternative viewpoint beside the New York times and the daily, the daily
news.
Yeah.
I hear you.
It was insane.
But anyway, guys, thanks for the great show.
Uh, you know, I've been listening to BAI since I got here in the eighties.
I really appreciate what you do.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
Take care.
Okay.
Good.
802-321-4225 is our phone number.
Good, good calls today.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
And you know, the doctrine that our caller brought up, I thought was great.
The, the fairness doctrine.
I don't know if you guys remember that this was like something from, you know, it was in,
it was in effect for many decades, but I think really repealed back in the eighties and it
had to do with scarcity really.
Right.
So for these controversial topics, the fairness doctrine, it was a policy from the FCC that
said broadcasters have to, have to provide some kind of balanced viewpoint and coverage
of any kind of controversial issue because there were so few frequencies on which to
broadcast.
I mean, think about that now in the context of the world in which we live in, when everybody
can be a broadcaster, everybody's got an opinion, everybody's got a goddamn Instagram
account or TikTok.
Hang on.
Everyone's not a broadcaster though.
A broadcaster is a unique thing.
You know, everybody can go on the internet and they called it narrowcasting when it, when
it first started, but broadcasting.
I mean, how many people right now in New York city are doing a live radio show over the
airwaves?
Yeah.
It's not very many.
Well, I agree with that.
Yeah.
And it's, it's something special, something unique.
And that is why they always go after it because they know the power that, that broadcasters have,
you know, it's, it's anonymous.
Nobody knows how many people are actually listening or who's listening.
You know, it's, it's extremely powerful.
Yeah, it is.
But I think that the doctrine itself doesn't necessarily hold up today with the, the, the
technology issue, right?
Where everybody has a voice that they can, if they want broadcast out to the world, right?
Maybe nobody's listening.
Maybe everybody's listening.
I don't necessarily know, but that's the, uh, I think that that's the issue.
Yeah.
I think what, what might, uh, bolster what you're saying, Alex, is that there are teams of, you
know, desks upon desks at a lot of the major networks and, and affiliate, like local stations
that are part of the networks that scour social media to pick up people who are bloviating,
telling their story, getting their, you know, saying their piece, getting something off their
chest or getting the word out about something.
And then they run that as through the news cycle.
So I think that that's a, an aspect of it that perhaps, yeah, they're narrow casting as
E you're right.
That, that is a, a good term because we are being specific here.
Um, and then that gets picked up by people who have access or gatekeeping on, in some ways,
uh, to those larger networks that in fact broadcast through, uh, radio and, and, uh, and other
passive ways.
But, you know, one thing that is really disturbing, uh, is, um, uh, seeing somebody like Brendan Carr,
uh, running the FCC and not understanding what the FCC is thinking that, uh, if, if he disagrees
with what is being said over the air that he can, he can shut down a station, you know,
that's, that's a military dictatorship type of, uh, governance there.
It's not what we have here.
Uh, he, um, uh, feels that he can go after Jimmy Fallon because he doesn't like the way
that he, uh, delivers his comedy.
Uh, that is not how a station loses its license.
A station loses its license by not serving the public by, uh, basically being irresponsible.
Uh, uh, not keeping records.
These are things that the FCC has for decades, uh, um, uh, managed and understood.
And now we're in a period where, uh, it's, they basically think they can control the programming
and that's never been the, the, uh, the role of the FCC.
And he does not get that.
And he continues to, um, uh, to threaten and intimidate.
And fortunately there are people who are standing up to it.
And I think ABC has finally changed where they're not just basically caving in.
They're fighting back.
They're defending the people who work for them.
And if everybody did that, everybody, uh, at, at, at newspapers and magazines and radio stations
and TV stations and networks, they all did that.
Uh, we would be in a far more secure place right now.
This kind of thing continues.
There's not going to be anything left.
And, uh, all we will have is our podcasts.
I think, and to a degree, we should look at history because there's so much precedent for,
uh, more draconian eras in media.
I'm thinking of the production codes.
I'm thinking of, um, you know, uh, uh, various, uh, points in time or during the cold war and,
and so forth where, um, people had to go underground.
They had to say things, you know, in wartime and in, in, under certain, uh, occupations and
stuff that there's just so many examples of people augmenting the way they get information
because it's so vital when, when, uh, those larger systems go away.
And I think it is really kind of foolhardy.
And at the, at the end of the day with, with a lot of these actions, because they're going
after a, a, a somewhat, uh, robust system as many as, as much as people are caving.
And, and so, and so many ways we're not seeing enough, uh, like Scott Pelley's react responding
in the moment, but, um, it, it, it still is, um, uh, resilient to that and, uh, to then
not really think that there will be alternatives no matter what you do, because people care
about their societies.
They care about information and getting the word out.
All right.
Let's take this phone call.
I believe this is rebel.
You have a few seconds here rebel, because I know you're not going to be on topic.
Not really think that there will be alternatives.
Or are you going to be playing?
Yes, go ahead.
Oh, yes.
Hold on.
Let me turn off my radio.
Yes.
I tuned in late.
I was playing basketball.
Um, yes.
Um, I guess we can't do demonstrations this week.
Maybe next week we'll do demonstrations.
Rebel, make it quick.
Okay.
Um, um, let's see.
Um, I'm sorry, not quick enough.
Let's move on.
802-321-4225.
Please be prepared and please try and stay on topic.
And rebel, we've talked to you about this many times.
Uh, you call in overtime.
You spend lots and lots of time on overtime with these demonstrations of phone recordings
and things like that.
Uh, we have a very limited time here on the radio station.
So 802-321-4225 is our phone number.
And, uh, let's take this phone call.
And good evening.
You're on Off the Hook on WBAI.
Hi.
Well, I was thinking that there was a fairness doctrine, but beyond that, isn't there a principle
that the airwaves belong to the people?
Yes, absolutely.
Public spectrum.
Thanks for remembering that.
Mm-hmm.
And also, they're passing through our bodies all the time.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Now, also, I know there's no cooperation for public broadcasting anymore, but what about
shows on PBS like Frontline?
Are they going to continue good journalism?
Yeah, CPB was basically, uh, the means of, of distributing the money, uh, to, uh, to the
various outlets, to the various, um, um, uh, stations and programs and things like that.
So as long as there are alternate ways of funding, whether it be, um, uh, donations or
grants or underwriting, uh, those shows will survive.
Uh, CPB served a very valuable purpose and we're the poorer for them not being around that.
I really hope, uh, that, that gets repaired when all of this is over.
But when you think about what they did, money was allocated to them.
And you always hear in the news that Congress clawed it back.
They clawed it back.
Basically, they stole the money.
It was already allocated.
And because Trump didn't like, I don't know what it was he didn't like exactly because
99% of what's on PBS and NPR is not political, but he found something he didn't like and punished
the entire network.
And, you know, the, the, the, the people who are being hurt the most are people in his
country, in, in, in the, uh, farmlands and places that aren't in the big cities because
PBS served them locally.
And now they're not there anymore with those, those local, um, um, services.
Yes.
I've even heard that.
I mean, it's not the same thing at all, but I heard that there's been, there've been
threats against the postal service, which also serves all the local places that may not
be reachable.
Otherwise.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Everything we know is in danger.
All the institutions that we, we have come to, um, um, you know, live by in our lives,
they're all under one threat or another, either because, uh, they're being used less or because
they're being seen as, as, uh, too critical of the regime.
It's really, it's a, it's, it's one hell of a lesson for a lot of people.
And it's the job of those, of those institutions to warn people that they're in danger.
And, and that's, what's being stopped.
Exactly.
They know what they're doing.
They, they know exactly what they're doing.
And we also want to thank you for your call.
We are out of time.
Unfortunately, we have to do this again because, um, uh, it's really great talking to our listeners
and talking about these important issues because boy, this, yeah, I guarantee you, we're going
to look back years from now on this particular turning point and, um, well, we'll know how
it turned out.
We'll know which direction we wound up going in.
Um, it's, it's weird every single day, every single day you open up the, uh, well, you
don't open up newspapers anymore, I guess app.
Yeah.
Apps, uh, websites, whatever.
The thing is we have to stay, um, uh, in touch.
We have to, uh, uh, not feel like we're alone because we're not.
And as long as you, uh, have WBAI listened to, you'll never be alone.
Am I, am I right?
I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, then.
You're right.
Okay.
That's going to do it for us.
You can write to us.
O-T-H at 2600.com, uh, with, uh, your comments and thoughts and, uh, tune in next week, seven
o'clock to eight o'clock here on WBAI.
Usually we're on YouTube on channel 2600 after that.
Not tonight though, because we exhausted ourselves taking all these phone calls.
So thank you everybody who called in.
We will see you on the radio.
Good night.
Oh, you tell me that your last good dollar is gone.
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And your value is a growing lean.
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But don't waste your breath calling out my name.
If you don't have nothing to say.
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And you keep on wasting your time.
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You got to spend it ain't really blind.
Now, it's a sin and a bloody shame about the way they're pushing you around.
But when you decide not to take no more, you know I'll put my money down.
Because I've seen your kind many times before.
And I'll see you many times again.
Oh, but every bad thing that's happened to you has happened to better men.
So, don't explain that you've lost your way.
That you've got no place to go.
You've got a hand and a voice and you're not alone.
Brother, that's all you need to know.
And if you're still wondering what I'm trying to say.
Let me tell you what it's all about.
Now, nobody listens to a single man when he's walking round down and out.
So, if you're looking for an answer, he's standing there by your side.
And you'll never really know how far you'll go till you join together and try.
So, you tell me that your last good dollar is gone.
And you say that your pockets are bare.
And you tell me that your clothes are tattered and torn.
And nobody seems to care.
Now, don't tell me your troubles.
No, I don't have the time to spare.
But if you want to get together and find good money, that's what I want to hear.
No, I don't have the time to spare.
No, I don't have the time to spare.