The number you have dialed or 8-8-0-0-0-0 has been disconnected.
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The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
One diddley-bomb, but I best expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
One diddley-bomb!
One diddley-bomb!
One diddley-bomb!
One diddley-bomb!
Thank you.
Thank you.
And a very good evening to ride the program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
Hello.
And out in Signal Land, we have what looks like Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
And Gila.
Good evening.
And Alex.
It's a hot evening, but a good evening.
It is a hot evening for sure, but it's going to get even hotter tomorrow.
Alex, before we begin, before we go any further, I just want to step in and ask you a personal favor.
Because I know you were in Harlem a little while ago, and there's the Belgium-Sinegal game that's taking place in the World Cup.
And it's a very close, very contentious, and I have not yet seen the end of it.
And so if you could see your way to not in any way spoiling the end result of that, I would certainly appreciate it.
Perhaps some of our listeners would appreciate it as well.
It's that crazy time every four years where we just get caught up in this.
And it's been absolutely incredible seeing all the things that have been happening, really, really exciting, close contests, and a lot of upsets, which really thrilled me.
So if you can, you know, share your experience without giving away the end of the game, that would certainly be appreciated.
Although, I have to say, you know, I always read into people's body language and little nuances and things like that.
So I think the game's already...
Did you see the way he rolled his eyes?
He took a sip of water and rolled his eye.
I'm not looking at him.
No, he did.
Did you see that?
No, Kyle, I'm not looking at him, so I don't see things like that.
However, I do notice that he's at home and not still in Harlem.
And if Senegal had won, I would think he'd be in Harlem, you know, at the height of the celebrations.
But you know what?
I'm just not going to read into that.
I'm going to try not to read into that.
Alex, tell us some of the adventures you've had today.
I will take that.
But I also will say that there's another reason why I had to head back downtown.
I have to head to Brooklyn right after the show.
See, there's another reason.
See, he spoiled it right there.
He said there's another...
That means there was a reason to head down initially, which means they must have lost.
No, no, you're totally reading into this.
I mean, this is absurd.
It's what I do, Alex.
I read into things.
That's what I do.
You do read into things, yeah.
No, there's an independent reason why I had to come back down, and that was to take the L train.
You can't take the L train from 116th Street, can you?
Well, why would you want to?
No, of course not.
Yeah, it's 14th Street is the L train.
Exactly, exactly.
Yep, yeah.
So I need to take the L train out to Brooklyn shortly after the show to go see a music thing out there tonight.
They're called concerts.
Yeah, a concert.
It's not really quite a concert.
It's electronic music.
I don't think they like to call it a music thing, though.
That doesn't seem right.
I don't know, music event, concert, but anyhow, back to 116th Street.
So I was up at 116th Street over 116th Street in St. Nicholas, that area, which is Petit Senegal, little Senegal, and tons of Senegalese people out on the streets today.
The police were out there.
They had the barricades, the parade traffic, barricade things up.
They had traffic blocked off on 116th Street.
There was some media up there, not too much.
But I went to a really famous Senegalese restaurant called Baobab, which is named after a tree, I believe, in Senegal.
A famous tree or a species of tree or something like that.
It looks like it's got kind of a very wide trunk.
But it was really quite an experience.
I've always wanted to go and check out some of these restaurants up in Petit Senegal.
I've heard a lot about them.
And the food looked amazing.
But I really couldn't eat anything today because everything was packed.
So I go into this restaurant, and it's just standing room only.
And it's all Senegalese.
And, you know, at the time, here's where you're going to read it.
You're going to stop me.
I know this.
Yep.
The mood was really jubilant.
Again, again, when you texted me, when you texted, first of all, I thought you ruined the game at that point because you texted me saying you're in the middle of these celebrations.
But I got to the end of regulation, and it's going into extra time where I am.
So that's past where you texted me.
So you have no longer ruined the game in the past.
However, you have the potential to ruin the game in the future.
Okay.
Very good.
As do our listeners.
So please, I'm asking a personal favor here.
Yeah.
I'd just say it was quite an experience.
And this is what we talked about.
I don't know.
What was it, a month or so ago when the World Cup was just starting out or was about to start out?
And we said, you know, instead of going to the stadiums, go into a local neighborhood that's supporting a particular country.
And at the time, I had in my mind, oh, wouldn't it be great to go see Senegal play up in Petty, Senegal?
It would be a great excuse to head up to 116th Street.
So incredibly easy to do.
Hop on the 6th train.
You're there in literally 15 minutes.
And I never get up that way.
And I think that's a mistake because it feels like you're in a different city.
It feels like you're in a different country.
And I was only literally, you know, 110 blocks away, or not even actually, but 90-something blocks away from where I was in kind of the West Village, Chelsea area to begin with.
So, you know, I think we don't take advantage of these really diverse and interesting neighborhoods like we should during the year.
I don't think it should take the World Cup game where Senegal is playing Belgium in order to get us up there.
I think this was a great experience.
I really enjoyed it.
Everybody was extremely friendly.
And like I said, it was just about all Senegalese people in the restaurant.
I think there were maybe two or three non-Senegalese people in there, of whom, rather, I was one.
And it was extraordinary.
It was really neat.
But also, the thing that was really kind of cool about it, too, Emmanuel, was to see Senegal, you know, which is this country that was dominated by Europe, playing against a European power and holding its own.
And, of course, Belgium was not responsible for the occupation of Senegal.
That was France.
If Belgium was playing DRC, I think that would be a different story.
But it's this face-off, this clash of cultures, the rich against the poor.
There's a lot of, I think, loaded meaning in these games and history that comes out as well.
And I think that's particularly cool to watch in your own city.
Yeah, and, you know, when you mentioned that you felt like you were in a different country, there are people who would hear a statement like that and wince and say, oh, my God, that's horrible.
And in actuality, it's wonderful.
It's one of the most magical things that we have going for us here in this country.
It's what many people want to take away.
They see that as a threat.
But what you so eloquently said just now illustrates how much of an incredible gift that is to be able to take a train and be in another nation pretty much, but also feel completely welcome.
And I bet the people there treated you like royalty.
I've done this many times.
And, you know, the World Cup has really got nothing to do with sports.
All right.
So let's just put that aside right now.
This is about cultural exchange.
This is about seeing people embrace not only their team, but the place they are at the moment.
I mean, think of the Scottish fans coming to Boston and how enamored that city became of them.
The Norwegians with their rowing everywhere.
I was talking to somebody who was at a Met game, and they took over Citi Field and were doing their rowing thing in the stadium.
Nobody was paying attention to the Mets, but, you know, it was a fun time for everybody.
And there are just so many other nations that are being represented from everywhere, from Africa, from South America, from Asia.
And they're winning.
They're beating some of the—I mean, Germany is out.
Netherlands are out.
England, oh, my God.
I'm not going to say any more about that.
But if you haven't seen that game today, go watch that game.
That's something else.
There have been so many exciting matches, and you just see the emotion on people's faces.
But you also see camaraderie.
And I think that's something that doesn't always go with the game.
And here in this country, I'm very proud to see it happening, where fans, you know, they represent different teams, different countries,
but yet they still can be next to each other and friendly.
It doesn't always happen with the game of football.
So this is an incredible opportunity for us to exchange all kinds of cultural, unique attributes,
and just make lifelong friends and learn something about the game, too,
because this game is so much bigger than anything we play in this country.
And it's just an incredible thing to see so many people following it.
We're talking billions of people following this while it's happening right now.
It'll be over in a month.
So, you know, we can say, oh, it's just another sporting event.
It's so much more than that.
Please give it a chance and learn a few things about the history and just the individuality of many of the people involved.
You know, I wish I could see a game in person, but this is cool, too, just going to a place.
I've been to German places, Serbian places, Spanish places, French, all kinds of outlets in New York City that you can go to when a game is playing involving one of those teams.
And it's really a lot of fun, as Alex had today.
You will have fun as well if you take the time and just experience that.
Yeah, I would encourage people to do this.
It really is.
It's one of the gems of this nation, of this country, to be able to go into these various neighborhoods and these places.
And for all intents and purposes, all the restaurants were Senegalese.
The smells were Senegalese.
It was so hard not to hang around and have Senegalese food over there, of which I think there are so many amazing restaurants.
If you just walk up and down 116th Street from east to west, you'll feel like you're in Senegal without the jet lag, without the back cramps from sitting in an economy seat for the 11-hour flight or whatever the hell it is.
It's a great experience.
I definitely recommend it.
And I'll be back up there again soon.
For the next game.
Oh, boy.
You just gave it away.
That means they must have won.
Oh, boy.
You can read into it however you want.
And the thing is, you know, the games get spoiled in the weirdest places.
My phone, for instance, I just glance at my phone and all of a sudden there's a news bulletin telling me who won.
You know, I just catch it out of the corner of my eye.
There was one time years ago where I was filling up my car at a gas station.
And, you know, those stupid news update things, they had the score there and it got ruined at a gas station.
So, yeah, you have to either watch the things as they're happening or just be very careful who you talk to.
Okay, speaking of being careful who you talk to, tonight you as a BAI listener can talk to us here at Off The Hook because we are doing our special, unique call-in program.
And what that means is that we give you a phone number, which is not the usual WBAI phone number.
It's a different phone number.
Yeah, it's the same number we always give out.
But right now it's not connected.
So, if you think you're ahead of the game and you're calling right now, you're winding up in the no-man's land.
When somebody gives out the phone number, and anybody can raise their hand and do that,
that is when the phone will become active, when they say the last digit and when this computer starts working.
Okay, so who would like to give out the phone number?
I'll do it.
Gila, okay.
Okay.
Go ahead whenever you're ready.
So, our telephone number is 802-321-4225.
And for the astute among us, that does spell out HACK.
That's 802-321-HACK.
Or if you'd like to call us toll-free, you can reach us at 833-755-2600.
Either HACK or 2600.
Either way is how you can get us.
I have a question.
Hi, I'm Kyle.
Kyle.
Yeah, I was wondering, is there anything specific that I have to talk about?
Or what is the subject matter for calls tonight?
Well, you're the engineer, so you don't have to talk about anything.
But callers?
No, whatever is on your mind.
Anything hacker-related, technology-related.
We did spend some time talking about the World Cup,
only because it's so damn big and huge and encompassing all around the world,
and we can't ignore it.
You can talk about the heat wave that's about to strike all of us.
You can talk about climate change, which is the reason why we're having heat waves like this.
Please don't give away the game if you can.
I'd appreciate that just as a personal favor.
But that's pretty much it.
I don't think there's any restrictions.
And please try to keep your call fairly short so other people have a chance to also call in.
Also, it's a telecommunications and hacking show.
It is.
It is, in case you don't know that.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
Yes, Emmanuel.
Okay, Rebel, hold on.
We distinctly asked you last week, on the overtime, don't call the on-air show,
because there are people who only can call the on-air show because they don't listen to overtime.
You call every week.
So we're going to skip this.
Don't call back.
If you do, you're going to get suspended.
I hate suspending people, but I will do it.
802-321-4225.
What do you do?
What do you do with someone who just keeps doing that?
I mean, are we sure this wasn't a deepfake Rebel?
It could have been.
That's why I'm nice.
And we're going to monitor it now.
That's why you're nice?
Yeah, I could have banned him on the spot, but I didn't.
Oh, I see.
I just thought you meant you'd be nicer to a deepfake version of Rebel than to Rebel himself.
Right.
That was a good test, though.
So it sounds like everything's working flawlessly.
Yeah.
Well, I don't have a flawlessly, but it's working.
802-321-4225, which spells...
...the word hack.
And if you're a listener to WBAI, please give us a call.
Tell us what's on your mind technology-wise.
If you have any thoughts about, I don't know, the world or technology, artificial intelligence.
There are so many things that we could be talking about.
We do this once a month where we take phone calls from the radio listeners.
We want to hear what's on your mind.
Yeah.
All right.
Interesting things out on the landscape, hardware, got problems with something, you noticed.
We have a call now.
We do have a call now.
I hear the phone ringing.
And good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
I have a quick question regarding this new Robles car in England and London, a wave that uses this so-called embodied AI, much cheaper to answer an AV L4-level-like wave.
And it's supposed to be a breakthrough.
Do you have any information that could explain how this so-called AI embodied technology where it uses, I believe, it doesn't use LIDAR, but it does use, I believe, cameras?
Wow.
Does anyone know?
Has anyone heard of this?
No.
I mean...
A-Y...
Getting a lot of blank stares here.
People, use your voices.
They started operation in London about two days ago, W-A-Y-Z-E.
Okay.
So I'm just confused because Waymo had this complicated LIDAR, you know, cameras and radar and a lot of, you know, testing, driving.
And they send information to other countries to have individuals who are paid almost nothing to annotize, you know, all kind of street signs, fire hydrants and so forth.
And then this company comes out of, I don't know, I've never heard of it before, and it's supposed to be better, cheaper, fast, you know, more effective, whatever, L4.
And it's kind of staring out of people in London, especially the black, you know, traditional, which are not much left over.
So I'm just wondering, it looks like a kind of a doomsday type of technology advancement that truly is better than Waymo.
And actually, it's very, very cheap and inexpensive to access any EV.
Well, I think Rob knows something about this.
Go ahead, Rob.
Yeah, so WAVE, which is spelled W-A-Y-V-E, as the caller said, is they began operations in England after going through rounds of hype and everything toward the beginning of this year.
And all the news about them seems to be PR stuff.
There doesn't really appear to be much discussion of substance going on at this point.
So I think the stage we're at is wait and see what happens, wait and see what people actually have to say about these things, who experience it.
We want to hear from people who live over there and experience these cars, have feelings about them, and what it's like over there and what the local response is like.
Because we need some human discussion of this.
And right now, it's all sort of press releases and cheery, like, look how much money we're getting to start up sort of stuff.
So when the caller says that they're the next big thing, we're probably hearing their words saying they're going to be the next best thing?
It does appear to be the case.
So, like, they seem convinced that they're the next big thing.
And I believe we lost the caller there.
But hopefully they're still listening on the air.
Well, as long as we're talking about it.
Go ahead.
Yeah, they appear to really, really want to be the next big thing, like so many tech startups.
And like everything in this field, it bears looking at with a critical eye.
It bears looking at with, I think, a certain amount of suspicion.
And let's see what the actual human reaction to this is.
It also appears that they have partnered with Uber in London.
I don't think you can get in a wave car yet.
But they're allowing you to potentially put your name on an interest list for it or hopefully say, please don't ever do that to mark your account in that way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they're apparently, so they were valued recently at 8.5 billion.
I don't know if it was dollars or pounds, but now they're also trying to put out a, get their employees to sell their vested shares back.
Like, this just all sounds, I don't know, a bit bizarre.
Yeah, they're holding what's called a tender offer, which is they have employees with vested options and they're allowing them to sell some of them back to them.
So, yeah, I don't know enough about the finance world to draw any conclusions from that.
But also, interestingly enough, this company is nine years old.
They're acting like nine years old.
Probably older than, isn't that older than Waymo?
Well, hmm, I don't know.
I'm going to ask this question every now and then, and then I'll stop asking it when somebody says yes.
But has anyone in this little circle here been in a driverless car?
Only parked ones.
What?
Only what?
Only parked ones, cars with no driver in them, because, like, mom went to the store to get some butter and cheese or something, and I'm waiting patiently for it.
Okay, Rob, you have a switch on your microphone, right?
Please just put that down.
And am I asking anybody else, have you ever been in a driverless car that's moving, since I have to make that distinction?
I saw a Waymo car on the street and a bunch of people circled around it.
Not the same thing.
No, but I believe the car was off and it did not matter.
I screamed and crossed the street to get away from it because I was afraid it was going to hit me.
Normally how you cross the street, but all right, fine.
I mean, you haven't walked with me in a long time, Emmanuel.
You don't know.
It's always exciting.
Let me just say, I don't think any of us have been in a driverless car, and that's good.
I like that.
I'm a little leery of, you know, it'd be interesting.
I've been on a roller coaster.
I think that's the closest thing right now.
But I don't know.
At some point, we're going to get in a car and realize there's no driver because they don't give you the option a lot of times.
Okay.
Who done?
Yeah.
Well, to that, I'd say, you know, as somebody who, you know, I'm a lawyer, but I also have programmed quite a bit.
I think it's just amazing to me to try to think about the amount of variables that are on a road that are changing at any time, especially in a street like in Manhattan.
I'm not talking about driving down the highway in Montana, you know, on a straightaway, but, you know, especially in an urban environment.
You know, there's cars coming out at you, there's things coming around, trucks and buses, there's cyclists, there's pedestrians, there's people jaywalking.
It's lots of different signs that need to be interpreted.
It's beyond mind-boggling how a program could account for all of these variables changing at so many different rates simultaneously and still keep a human being safe.
I just don't trust it.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't trust a lot of human drivers, too.
Don't get me wrong.
Of course.
But this is something that is very prone to malfunction, and we're not there yet.
I mean, you could hold up a sign telling a car that the speed limit is 75, and the car will be fooled by that.
So think about somebody with nefarious purposes doing something like that and causing all kinds of grief.
You know, the imagination boggles with the possibilities, and yeah, some of them are really, really evil, but that's the world we live in.
Okay, our phone number, 802-321-4225.
Phone lines are open.
And talking about England brings us, of course, to Peppa Pig, and this story that we got this week.
Peppa Pig, of course, is famed for her love of jumping in muddy puddles, but the company behind the hit children's TV series has created a different kind of splash with its approach to, wait for it, AI.
You knew it was going to be AI.
We've all seen Peppa Pig, right?
Has anyone not seen Peppa Pig?
Would you say seen it?
You mean like sat down and watched an episode?
Know what it's about.
Know what I'm talking about.
I know that it exists.
Okay.
I know, you know, I've never sat down and watched an episode of Peppa Pig.
No, but aren't you around kids that are watching it?
Don't you see them occasionally, and they say, hey, I'm watching Peppa Pig?
No.
It has helped.
Okay.
Anyway, yes, Alex.
Well, I'll tell you, I've been subjected to a lot of Peppa Pig over the last, you know, decade or so because I have two children.
It's not my favorite, and I'll tell you exactly why, because the father in the family in Peppa Pig is really made out to be kind of like a bumbling idiot.
And I just don't think it's a good role model for children to see a father like that who's just an absolute moron idiot that everybody takes digs at.
Did your children make some kind of allusion to the father pig and maybe, you know, point in your direction, and that sort of set you off?
No, but, you know, these things seep in.
It's understandable.
They seep in.
They seep in.
And, you know, maybe there's just too many similarities between the Papa Pig and Peppa Pig and me that maybe it hits a little too close.
Children can be so cruel.
It's true.
It really is.
Yeah.
Nothing brings out the cruelty in children like, you know, Peppa Pig.
Yes.
Well, that's not what this is about.
This is about Hasbro, the U.S. entertainment giant that acquired the Peppa Pig brand in 2019.
Yeah, I bet you didn't know that.
They acquired Peppa Pig.
It's asking child actors on the animated series to sign over their voices.
This just sounds so evil.
Sign over their voices to artificial intelligence under new contract terms.
Industry sources said AI clauses are now frequently appearing in kids' contracts on TV and film projects, but Hasbro's embrace of the terms on Peppa Pig has become a lightning rod for concern.
Nearly 1,000 people have signed an open letter organized by the Agents of Young Performers Association, or APA, condemning AI terms on an international children's franchise.
The open letter does not name Peppa Pig, and the APA declined to identify the series, but industry sources told Deadline, which is where this story is from, that it refers to the beloved show.
The letter is also not specific about the clause in question, but theoretically, it could give Hasbro the power to clone a child's voice and then use the AI-generated audio in Peppa Pig commercial assets.
At some point in the industry, do you think something goes off in your brain that tells you you're being evil, you're doing something really awful?
I mean, when you're asking children to sign over their voices to artificial intelligence, it just seems to me like you stepped into a science fiction program at this point, and you're the evil billionaire that everybody is going to wind up fighting by the end of the episode.
Absolutely. And just a quick update to this. This new story was posted maybe a week ago on Deadline, and when it said nearly 1,000 people have signed an open letter, that open letter is now at about 1,886 signatures.
I'm one of them. Just because, you know, it's by no means my main gig, but I've done work as a voice performer and also as a media producer, and I do care about this sort of thing.
And it's really frightening because, like, historically, the entertainment industry, you know, you go far back enough and you see horribly exploitative things that were done to child performers by the industry and others.
And so much work has been done by, like, entertainment unions and similar to ensure better working conditions for child actors, better protections of the rights of child performers.
And Hasbro is waltzing right into this and saying, well, we want to clone your child's voice, and so we don't need them anymore, but their voice can continue to fuel our product.
And, you know, parents now, you know, parents of these children have to make this decision.
Is this worth signing away the rights to my child's voice? The child has no agency in this decision.
It's terrifying that this is being done.
And if I could just hop on this for a second, it's not just happening to kids.
There's a new show going to be on Netflix in the fall, and Gene Wilder's going to be on it.
And you say, but wait, Gila, Gene Wilder's dead.
No, no, no.
They have resurrected his voice with AI, and it's about Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, and Gene Wilder's going to be on the show because they recreated his voice with AI.
So it's children.
It's dead people.
It's gross.
At least in the case of someone like Gene Wilder, you would think maybe there are some errors or something that own his likeness rightfully and can make the decision to do something crappy like this with it.
But, you know.
I mean, it's his wife, but it's also not.
He had Alzheimer's.
I'm sure he was not compassed for the last few years of his life.
Right.
And couldn't have consented to this on his own merits.
But theoretically, there could be some sort of informed permission going on in a situation like this with an adult.
There's no way to do that with a kid.
What are you going to tell these kids when they grow up and, you know, have to deal with the fact that their voice is cloned, their performance is going on without them, and they just aren't needed anymore.
And maybe that's the reason why they're going after kids, because they can't really give consent, and they're easy targets.
Alex, you had something?
Yeah.
Well, I think bringing this down to more fundamental levels, whether it's Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory or Peppa Pig or Bluey or whatever the cartoon or children's material we're talking about here.
I think the issue is really more about whether we're okay with these types of people being used as training material.
And that's what it is.
You know, first, it's copyrighted books that were pirated and pushed into AI training models that's so incredibly well documented that Meta was doing this.
They were even questioning whether it was okay to be torrenting these pirated materials inside the office in some of the discovery material that came out in that lawsuit.
But today it might be Peppa Pig's voice or Gene Wilder's voice, and tomorrow, not so distant tomorrow, it's going to be an entire show generated on demand for a child based on their mood, perhaps even quietly surveilling their mood while they're watching this, figuring out what comes next in the show based on the emotive characteristics that the person is displaying.
And I think if we bring it back even deeper, we have to ask ourselves, is it okay for our children to have bonds and children do bond with characters during these shows?
Is it okay for them to bond with synthetic characters?
Are they going to be able to make human connections with synthetic characters that are completely generated either beforehand or on demand?
That's something, I think, which is really, really quite scary because I think there is something ineffable, something that can't be replicated about what humans do and the connections we have between each other.
Well, you know, Alex, I have to push back a little bit here because, you know, Bugs Bunny is not human.
And I bonded with Bugs Bunny when I was a kid.
But Bugs Bunny had a human, had a real human voice and real content and real emotion.
I don't know that.
How would I know if that was a real human or not?
Because it had to be a real human.
There wasn't a possibility of it being a fake human at the time.
You know, when Bugs Bunny said, what's up, doc?
You heard a human's voice.
It wasn't a generated.
I don't know what kind of children's shows you were subjected to, but, you know, things are starting to make sense.
Yep.
It was also a cathode ray tube.
What's that supposed to mean?
Well, it's just like, scientifically, it wasn't a human.
It was on a glass set.
Yeah, that's right.
You know, it was...
It's an image being put into your living room.
Like a painting, right?
And anthropomorphizing something that is actually itself made up of mass material.
I mean, look, Alex, if you're watching the show live, okay, maybe Mel Blanc is there, you know, reading the lines.
But if you're watching it on recording, well, then you're listening to little magnetic bits on tape.
So how is that human?
Well, you could say the same thing about any movie.
This is totally ridiculous.
That's true. You can.
And I think that's going to be something that they use as an argument.
So the only things that evoke true emotion to you, then, Emmanuel, will be going to see a play or something live?
I'm not saying I agree with this.
Yes, I'm bringing up these points because they're, you know, valid arguments, I think, and ones we should be prepared to...
Okay, so the World Cup is live, but it's not alive.
Well, right now, the World Cup is over.
At least Belgium and Senegal is, but I don't know what happens.
So to me, it's going to be real when I finally get to see it.
We have a phone call.
Oh, okay.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
Speak up, please.
I think we chase them away.
You know, sometimes when you put people on hold for 10 minutes, they lose patience.
And I'm sorry about that.
Our phone number remains 802-321-4225.
We very rarely leave a call on hold until next week.
It does happen sometimes.
We lose track like anybody does.
But we will do our best to pick you up tonight.
I got to say, with all of this, when you're talking about talent and creative pursuits being used in these models,
I have this tremendous, I think, the anxiety, the sort of concerns, I share that with a lot of people.
And I'm also kind of interested and intrigued in the possibilities.
But I really have to appreciate restraint as far as putting all of my creative works online.
And a lot of people did this.
And looking back, I'm really thanking myself to whatever detriment.
You know, maybe I don't have a portfolio.
I'm, you know, maybe more or less obscure as a result in those pursuits.
But at least I own them still to a degree insofar as I can control them now and going forward.
But I just think to myself how often I was, you know, encouraged to create content or, you know, just you get this messaging from the sorts of flashy platforms and the like that so many people laud and just give of themselves.
Just basically begin working for these platforms by churning things out and stuff like photography for me that, yeah, it's one thing to be able to share your work.
But sharing with a capital S like such that it can be recreated without your consent.
Wow.
That would not be a scenario I'd be happy with.
So I feel good about my own restraint.
Well, you know, we each are finding our way and we'd love to hear other people's experiences and philosophies about ways to deal with creativity because everyone has a different way of doing it.
But I think we're all unique and we all need to find what works for us.
Not try to be the most popular, not try to, you know, get the most likes and follows because that's that doesn't really mean anything.
It's about the quality of the contacts that you have and the work that that you create.
And we're all here experiencing the same thing.
OK, we have a phone call.
We're not going to lose this one.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Go ahead.
I have no way of doing it, but.
Please turn me down.
And we all need to find what works for us.
Yeah, I don't need to hear myself again.
Please.
OK, that didn't do us any good.
All right.
So it's 802-321-4225.
We're taking calls live on WBAI in New York City and around the world.
We have a listener letter and you can write your listener letter to OTH at 2600.com.
This listener identifies as PRD and says, I recently had a strange experience while trying to have an issue resolved with my T-Mobile prepaid plan.
I was chatting with a rep about why my account was burning minutes when I should have been using Wi-Fi calling.
Right before the agent was going to credit me for the amount of minutes consumed during the call in question, I was forwarded to a chatbot.
The chatbot told me it was operating on behalf of Ultra Mobile, which I guess now handles T-Mobile's prepaid accounts.
After it was unable to help me, I decided to have a laugh and ask it how many R's there are in the word strawberry.
And it failed miserably.
So not only is their chatbot useless and some cutout T-Mobile seems to be using to avoid accountability, but it would also seem to be missing some important guardrails.
We have an audio excerpt of this.
Let's see if we can make this work of the chatbot failing miserably to identify how many R's are in the word strawberry.
Let's listen.
Yeah, one more question.
How many R's are there in the word strawberry?
Sure thing.
The word strawberry has two R's, one after the T and one near the end.
Anything else I can help you with for your Ultra Mobile account?
No, I really don't think so.
And there's really nothing else to say.
Wow.
Okay.
Simple question and it failed miserably.
Thank you for that, PRD.
And our phone number remains 802-321-4225.
Please give us a call.
We have a few minutes left.
Well, to be fair to the chatbot there, I mean, there technically are two R's in strawberry.
There's just not two R's in total.
Maybe if the question were phrased more specifically, the chatbot would have gotten it right.
Why are you putting the onus on the person asking the question to phrase the question in a way that makes it more simple for the chatbot to say whatever it wants to say and somehow still be right?
There are three R's in strawberry.
I would have known that at six years old.
There's also one R in strawberry and two R's in strawberry.
But in total, there are three.
If you were asked to count all the R's in strawberry, that would have been a more pointed question.
If you've grown up on this planet, you know when somebody asks you a question like that, they're asking for the total number.
But these things maybe didn't grow up on this planet.
That's the whole problem.
You have to be very specific with your request to these AI systems.
Or you're going to...
This is why it's better to hire a human who knows their R's from their elbow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
802-321-4225.
Please give us a call while we have some time left.
We don't have very much time left.
So you can be one of the calls for tonight.
Go ahead.
While we're waiting for a call, I would like to make a public service announcement.
This heat dome has settled over a lot of the eastern half of the United States.
If you are in New York City and you need a cool place to go, the city is operating cooling centers all over the place.
Public libraries are all cooling centers.
If you're an older adult, there are a lot of cooling centers specifically for older adults.
And Rob is currently looking up the website for how to locate your nearest cooling center.
Even if you don't need one, please check on your neighbors.
Check on your relatives.
Check on people with young children, people with pets, whatever it is.
We have to look out for each other right now.
But, Gila, a library is always a cool place to go.
No, it's definitely an awesome place to go.
But also they are officially sitting around cooling centers.
And if you go to nyc.gov and you click into NYC 311, which is the official New York City website, you can find all kinds of helpful information on getting through the next few days without losing your cool.
Ha ha.
Okay.
Well, don't lose your cool because we're going to need that over the next couple of days.
Now, what's happening in Europe is unprecedented.
Many countries there are setting records, all-time records for temperature.
And it's, you know, we can laugh a little bit, but it's really a serious issue.
It's really scary.
A lot of people are dying.
Let's not have that happen here in New York, in the United States.
Hopefully it won't be as bad here.
And hopefully we start taking this seriously and start doing whatever we can to not make it as bad as it's getting.
Because it's getting pretty bad every year.
There seems to be another series of these phenomena.
And just because we like phones on this program, you can also dial 311 within New York City to ask somebody whether you can find a cooling center near you.
And do you know, you can dial 212 New York and you get 311 from anywhere.
You didn't know that.
That's awesome.
Look at the look on Angela's face.
Today I learned.
Yeah, yeah.
At least that used to work.
I hope it still does.
Okay, good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Go ahead.
Hello?
Yes, you're on the air.
Great.
A couple quick ones.
By the way, there are, in addition to the cooling centers, there are trailers of some sort that's set up in each borough to provide additional cooling space.
And then, you know, they're having electrolyte refreshments and things like that.
Another question I had.
Today's stunt on top of the Empire State Building.
I don't know if you heard about that.
I'm glad you mentioned that.
Tell us about it.
Well, I didn't see much of it.
I just see a bit of scattered information on mass media.
But I was wondering, previously, when the transmitters were on top of the World Trade Center, special precautions had to be taken.
People had to lower their power somewhat.
And I think even BAI had to go off the air for a little while.
I was wondering, isn't there an intense amount of radiation that would be dangerous to somebody standing right in front of the thing?
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's not a very smart thing to do.
Yeah.
Kyle?
Oftentimes, doing any kind of maintenance at a site like that, you have to be very aware of the radiation sources and that kind of energetic equipment is all around you.
What I would suspect is that as soon as they realized that there was a transgression like this, a lot of some of the most intense and energetic sources were lowered or cut in some way.
But I by no means have any kind of insight from people or personnel there.
Yeah.
When we were up on Empire, sometimes late at night, we'd be doing transmitter maintenance and we'd have to go off the air.
And if people were working on the equipment up there, all stations that broadcast from the top of that building would have to go off the air, usually overnight when people aren't listening as much.
I don't know if that happened today.
I don't know if they were directly in the path of the transmission towers.
But it certainly is a dangerous thing to do.
And that's not even taking into account the height issues.
I know.
Well, maybe they'll be followed.
Maybe they should be followed for long-term ill effects or maybe immediate ill effects.
Who knows?
But I like to follow that story.
All right.
Thank you.
I'll get over now.
Thanks.
Thanks for your call.
And our phone number remains 802-321-4225.
We have about three minutes left.
But that was an interesting story.
I don't know if you guys follow this.
Two people, a client, I think they started from the observatory on the 86th floor or maybe the 101st floor.
And they climbed up.
There's a ladder.
You can do that.
It wasn't like they scaled the side of the building.
And it's weird.
You know, I read a story that said, you know, there was an actor who did this, but he had permission.
And then there was King Kong, as if King Kong was real.
So, yeah, King Kong did it as well.
But these people, they climbed the ladder, and there's this little platform up there.
And they both got to the platform.
They had this banner.
And, Rob, you seem like the kind of person who would know what the banner said because I don't have it in front of me.
Or you're the kind of person who can get that information very quickly.
Am I right?
I can't quite tell what the banner says in the photo that I've found so far.
It's when the power of...
When the power of love beats the love of power, the world...
Well, no peace.
Well, no peace.
That's it.
Yeah, that's what it was.
And apparently they went up there to do a marriage proposal.
Yeah, well, don't...
You ruined it.
Okay, yeah.
I was going to say, when they were up there, the guy gets on his knees and proposes to the woman.
And it's just this great picture of people on top of the Empire State Building doing that.
But also, keep in mind how difficult it is to climb that ladder holding a huge banner.
They did that as well.
Now they're in custody, learning about the NYPD and all kinds of other legal issues.
And we have a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Go ahead.
Yes.
I was asking a question on Saturday to those machines, the iPhones.
And my friend asked if, you know, you could get cold-pressed olive vegetable oil from an olive.
And they gave us back the answer, no.
And so then I said, ask them if you can get cold-pressed olive, from coconut oil.
And before she could put in the question, the machine answered us back.
Now, what is that all about?
Sounds like somebody was eavesdropping or something was eavesdropping.
Yeah, right.
And there were only two people in the living room, she and I.
And it seems like those telephones or those machines that the people have, the iPhones or whatever,
those things are eavesdropping on people because I was talking to her and the machine answered.
That's really strange.
That is weird.
That is weird and not as unusual as you might think.
I'm sure we'll get all kinds of stories from listeners who have experienced similar things, maybe even people here.
All right.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for your call.
Take care.
Do we have any stories like that?
Yes, Rob?
I did.
This is unrelated, but I did want to mention that 2600 meetings are happening all over the world.
If it's safe for you to go out on Friday with the temperatures and all, check out 2600.com slash meetings to find one near you or to start one near you.
You can get to the 2600 meeting in New York City without leaving a subway car that's hopefully air-conditioned or underground passageways, which also might be air-conditioning.
And, of course, the place where the meeting is is air-conditioned as well.
So you can be completely protected from the evil environment that's out there.
And that might be true in other cities around the world as well.
So you can go to 2600.com slash meetings for a full list of meetings.
Also, you can find out how to start meetings in your own area.
And these have been going on since 1987.
And it's just basically a way for hackers to gather together and meet other people in their neck of the woods and talk about technology.
Maybe share some old equipment and go have some adventures and share a meal and just learn a little bit.
It's really pretty amazing.
Yeah, it's a great way to find out what other hackers are doing in your locale.
You could find out about clubs.
You could find out about other social gatherings and extensions.
And, you know, you never know who you'll meet or where it'll take you.
But it's a fantastic way to meet people in and about this affinity group we know of as hackers.
Well, we are just about out of time.
There is no overtime tonight because we did the calls on WBAI this evening.
However, next week we'll be back.
You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
I'm going to go back to the Senegal-Belgium game as it goes into extra time.
And thank you, Alex, for not spoiling the game for me.
And, of course, at 8 o'clock the USA is playing Bosnia, which that game is not spoiled yet because it hasn't yet begun.
But it's going to be spoiled for somebody and it's going to be a lot of fun to watch.
I encourage people to dive into it.
It's going to be awesome.
The whole thing is going to be awesome.
We will see you next week.
Have a good night.
We'll see you next week.