[00:10.790 --> 00:14.290]  The number you have reached is not in service.
[00:14.670 --> 00:16.230]  This is a recording.
[00:17.450 --> 00:20.910]  One-one-one-one-one.
[02:11.510 --> 02:13.530]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:13.590 --> 02:15.130]  The program is off the hook.
[02:15.510 --> 02:17.510]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:17.930 --> 02:19.330]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:19.610 --> 02:20.150]  Hi.
[02:20.570 --> 02:21.770]  Away from the microphone.
[02:22.050 --> 02:23.810]  Out in Signal Land, we have Gila.
[02:24.210 --> 02:24.870]  Good evening.
[02:25.150 --> 02:26.550]  And we have Alex.
[02:27.530 --> 02:28.290]  You do.
[02:28.510 --> 02:28.830]  Good evening.
[02:29.350 --> 02:37.250]  Well, we have no overturn tonight because we are just too damn busy preparing for major events.
[02:37.250 --> 02:40.970]  And our organization of a whole lot of people and things like that.
[02:41.890 --> 02:42.870]  Not your problem.
[02:42.890 --> 02:43.690]  It's our problem.
[02:43.850 --> 02:45.390]  We're going to figure it all out.
[02:46.030 --> 02:47.350]  But boy, are we busy.
[02:47.690 --> 02:48.650]  It's simply incredible.
[02:49.810 --> 02:52.590]  And we have, you know, a few stories to talk about.
[02:53.690 --> 02:58.310]  I really, really, really, really, really don't want to talk about this guy anymore.
[02:58.330 --> 03:00.930]  He just seems to inject himself into every damn story.
[03:00.990 --> 03:01.990]  He's ruined the World Cup.
[03:02.150 --> 03:06.170]  And now apparently .gov websites are also on the list.
[03:06.170 --> 03:09.150]  Great story in Ars Technica.
[03:09.390 --> 03:18.930]  I just would like to recommend people read the story entitled Trump's Plan to Redesign Every .gov Website Leads to AI Designed Horrors.
[03:19.730 --> 03:20.710]  Oh, boy.
[03:21.330 --> 03:24.010]  It's as bad as you think it could possibly be.
[03:24.150 --> 03:25.110]  Maybe even worse.
[03:25.170 --> 03:26.770]  I'm just going to read the opening part.
[03:26.870 --> 03:29.990]  Maybe we can discuss a little bit, but not a whole lot.
[03:29.990 --> 03:38.190]  But Trump's plan to fill the digital potholes and use AI to quickly redesign every government website isn't going very well.
[03:38.370 --> 03:40.130]  I don't know if anybody is surprised by that.
[03:40.650 --> 03:45.670]  Now, last August, he created the National Design Studio, or NDS.
[03:46.270 --> 03:47.890]  Created it by executive order.
[03:47.890 --> 03:52.250]  A temporary doge-like entity that answers only to the president.
[03:53.970 --> 03:58.590]  NDS was tasked with creating new standards to update the U.S.
[03:58.830 --> 04:03.350]  web design system, which we all know as USWDS.
[04:03.770 --> 04:04.350]  That's a thing.
[04:04.470 --> 04:05.250]  That really exists.
[04:05.650 --> 04:12.370]  The plan was to overhaul 27,000 .gov websites in just three years.
[04:12.370 --> 04:23.590]  At the end of this so-called America by design initiative, the government's design language would supposedly be more usable and beautiful.
[04:24.490 --> 04:26.970]  That is how they described it.
[04:27.530 --> 04:48.510]  However, however, that monumental task assigned to a small team under a short time frame was seemingly made harder by Doge's deep cuts to agencies previously responsible for improving government websites, including dismantling the 18F technology unit and restructuring the U.S.
[04:48.650 --> 04:50.370]  digital service into Doge.
[04:50.590 --> 04:56.190]  Those teams knew exactly how hard it can be to get every government agency to adopt new web standards.
[04:56.490 --> 05:01.090]  They had spent years trying to push agencies to update their sites to comply with the U.S.
[05:01.150 --> 05:08.170]  WDS standards, yet only 30% of government websites used them as of mid-2023.
[05:08.170 --> 05:09.890]  That's according to NextGov.
[05:09.890 --> 05:11.270]  Notably, the U.S.
[05:11.350 --> 05:25.410]  WDS team, which was created in 2015 to ensure government websites were accessible and mobile-friendly, that team was reduced to one full-time employee after Trump took office.
[05:25.910 --> 05:27.850]  One person is doing all this.
[05:28.510 --> 05:38.270]  Most people agree that updating government websites is a worthwhile and necessary endeavor, but about a year into NDS's existence, the team hasn't accomplished much.
[05:38.390 --> 05:40.210]  You know, the team is one person.
[05:40.390 --> 05:42.130]  Let's not put too much pressure on them.
[05:42.790 --> 05:44.850]  Or maybe we just shouldn't have them.
[05:45.410 --> 05:50.810]  Its biggest accomplishment has been modernizing the federal retirement system.
[05:50.930 --> 05:57.710]  However, former government workers have accused the Trump administration of claiming false victories and overstated credit.
[05:58.170 --> 05:59.590]  Well, that's a new thing.
[06:00.250 --> 06:04.630]  Noting that the project was underway before NDS was created.
[06:04.870 --> 06:06.110]  Before, after, time.
[06:06.230 --> 06:09.730]  You know, people really get hung up on the most trivial of things.
[06:10.330 --> 06:16.470]  The group's other output has been meager, with few launches and substantial backlash from design experts.
[06:17.210 --> 06:19.850]  Yeah, you don't want the backlash from the design experts.
[06:20.030 --> 06:20.710]  I've learned that.
[06:21.350 --> 06:30.090]  They argue the team relies too heavily on AI, has failed to test sites for compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act.
[06:30.310 --> 06:38.750]  As scrutiny of NDS has intensified, most agencies are now resisting connecting with the team about adopting new web standards.
[06:39.130 --> 06:42.890]  There are a bunch of interesting websites listed here.
[06:42.890 --> 06:52.230]  And, Alex, I think of you whenever I see a weird .gov site, because they're all over this Ars Technica article.
[06:52.870 --> 06:54.270]  There's live.gov.
[06:54.270 --> 06:56.070]  There's onlyfarms.gov.
[06:56.230 --> 06:58.910]  There's aliens.gov, which we discussed a few weeks ago.
[06:59.330 --> 07:00.790]  There's why.gov.
[07:00.930 --> 07:01.930]  Okay, wait, I have to ask.
[07:02.550 --> 07:04.990]  What is why.gov?
[07:05.150 --> 07:11.970]  I mean, I ask that question every day, but I'm curious what it means, what they do on that site.
[07:12.410 --> 07:14.090]  Maybe one of us can check it out.
[07:14.430 --> 07:15.410]  It's not going to be me.
[07:16.030 --> 07:16.530]  Alex, go ahead.
[07:18.490 --> 07:19.830]  Well, why.gov?
[07:20.350 --> 07:21.890]  What the hell is this?
[07:21.970 --> 07:23.350]  This is some kind of strange thing.
[07:23.550 --> 07:25.310]  Oh, is this...
[07:25.310 --> 07:26.270]  Are you on it now?
[07:26.390 --> 07:27.250]  Oh, my God.
[07:27.250 --> 07:29.150]  You don't even want to know what why.gov is.
[07:29.170 --> 07:30.350]  You did this from your house?
[07:30.630 --> 07:31.770]  You did this from your house?
[07:32.130 --> 07:34.770]  Alex, where are your brains and your ass?
[07:34.950 --> 07:35.410]  Come on.
[07:37.410 --> 07:38.650]  This is so bad.
[07:38.790 --> 07:40.070]  Don't connect from your house.
[07:40.090 --> 07:41.830]  For God's sake, that's rule number one.
[07:42.530 --> 07:45.830]  I'm using a VPN that goes right through your home router, Emmanuel.
[07:46.110 --> 07:47.010]  So, I'm all good.
[07:47.210 --> 07:48.150]  We're all going down.
[07:49.110 --> 07:50.190]  Now, this...
[07:50.190 --> 07:51.830]  Why.gov is pretty horrifying.
[07:51.830 --> 07:55.250]  It's all like horror stories about illegal aliens and things.
[07:55.570 --> 07:58.370]  And literally, I had no idea that that existed.
[07:59.090 --> 07:59.610]  But...
[07:59.610 --> 08:01.170]  Okay, explain to me the why.
[08:03.950 --> 08:06.930]  I guess it's, you know, all these people that are...
[08:06.930 --> 08:11.170]  It's stories of victims, of crimes associated with illegal aliens.
[08:11.290 --> 08:13.290]  And my guess is that that's the why.
[08:13.490 --> 08:14.270]  Why did this happen?
[08:14.770 --> 08:15.090]  I don't know.
[08:15.170 --> 08:17.070]  Gila, you look like you have some insight into the query.
[08:17.450 --> 08:19.870]  Unfortunately, I've been reading very quickly.
[08:19.950 --> 08:22.450]  Please put illegal aliens in air quotes when you say it.
[08:22.550 --> 08:24.030]  Because that's their term.
[08:24.310 --> 08:25.450]  It's a dehumanizing term.
[08:25.450 --> 08:26.510]  And I really don't like it.
[08:27.250 --> 08:31.030]  Why.gov redirects to whitehouse.gov slash why.
[08:31.970 --> 08:35.930]  With the tagline being, this is our why.
[08:36.670 --> 08:39.690]  And it's talking about...
[08:39.690 --> 08:46.970]  It's not just talking about what they call illegal aliens.
[08:47.070 --> 08:51.310]  But it also talks about people who have died from fentanyl and other synthetic opioids.
[08:51.870 --> 08:54.490]  Which is legitimately terrible.
[08:54.490 --> 08:55.970]  And it's all these...
[08:55.970 --> 08:59.610]  It's a lot of pictures of people holding pictures of their dead children.
[08:59.850 --> 09:00.590]  Which is just awful.
[09:00.790 --> 09:02.770]  And it's stories of people's dead children.
[09:02.950 --> 09:03.770]  Which is just awful.
[09:04.050 --> 09:05.570]  What the hell is wrong with these people?
[09:05.570 --> 09:06.390]  What are they doing?
[09:06.950 --> 09:08.490]  I still don't understand the why.
[09:08.690 --> 09:09.570]  I really don't.
[09:10.210 --> 09:13.090]  I think people are suggesting that...
[09:14.230 --> 09:19.490]  The current occupant of the White House is going to stop the flood of synthetic opioids.
[09:19.490 --> 09:25.870]  And the why they're supporting this man is because of his tough-on-crime perspective.
[09:25.870 --> 09:27.070]  If I had to guess.
[09:28.390 --> 09:28.870]  Okay.
[09:29.010 --> 09:31.170]  And I hope you heard the air quotes around everything I just said.
[09:31.170 --> 09:32.770]  I heard a lot of air quotes, yes.
[09:33.930 --> 09:37.010]  Well, maybe I could suggest another .gov site.
[09:37.010 --> 09:38.090]  Merrychristmas.gov.
[09:38.210 --> 09:39.390]  Yeah, that's one too.
[09:40.070 --> 09:43.290]  It includes one page for each of the 12 days of Christmas.
[09:43.290 --> 09:45.010]  An apparent vanity project.
[09:45.670 --> 09:50.650]  Rather than a government resource, the site is also a celebration of NDS Designs.
[09:50.930 --> 10:00.530]  And culminates on Christmas with a page praising the group for building sites reflecting a belief that thoughtful design can strengthen democracy and improve civic life.
[10:00.930 --> 10:01.510]  My God.
[10:01.590 --> 10:02.810]  I feel like I'm in North Korea.
[10:02.850 --> 10:03.590]  I really do.
[10:03.590 --> 10:06.090]  And I've been to North Korea, so I know what that feels like.
[10:06.550 --> 10:08.250]  Just the singing praise.
[10:08.250 --> 10:11.770]  And I expect megaphones to be installed on the street corners soon.
[10:12.350 --> 10:13.390]  Yeah, where are they?
[10:14.070 --> 10:15.330]  They're hard to get, trust me.
[10:19.220 --> 10:38.960]  Well, look, to go back to this issue with respect to the NDS or the National Design Studio and this idiotic notion of trying to downsize human beings, at the same time improve efficiency through redesigning all of the .gov websites.
[10:39.140 --> 10:44.040]  I mean, this is premised on so many incredibly idiotic assumptions, I have to say.
[10:44.420 --> 10:57.780]  I mean, if you think about, you know, just about every .gov website, everything that turns up into the .gov zone file, we've talked about that, there's kind of weird things that we find and interesting things that we find going away from the .gov zone file,
[10:57.900 --> 11:14.300]  but they're all wired into law, into budgets, into casework, into actual human lives, and trying to auto-redesign websites across the government, across agencies, across departments.
[11:14.780 --> 11:23.600]  You know, it's like trying to hot-swap an electrical system in a hospital when surgery is in progress.
[11:23.980 --> 11:28.500]  I mean, these are like living, breathing sites that actually do things with people.
[11:28.700 --> 11:32.980]  A lot of them have interconnected portals that go to databases, that go to systems that...
[11:32.980 --> 11:38.520]  I can't imagine how many things are going to break if you try to do this at scale.
[11:38.520 --> 11:40.780]  And it'll break one after another, after another.
[11:40.960 --> 11:54.820]  To do this in the manner that they are proposing, to just have AI go through and redesign all these sites, it's operating under this incredibly idiotic assumption that all of these pages, they're just landing pages.
[11:55.100 --> 11:56.640]  They just have text and things on them.
[11:56.960 --> 12:06.540]  No, they're all interconnected in some way or another, especially if they provide or are associated with any kind of essential services that people rely on.
[12:06.580 --> 12:10.180]  I think this is really idiotic, really dangerous thing for Trump to do.
[12:12.340 --> 12:14.540]  If I could just jump in for a quick second.
[12:14.700 --> 12:18.340]  The thing I find fascinating about NDS is who's there.
[12:20.040 --> 12:24.700]  Everybody who failed out of DOGE went to NDS for the most part.
[12:27.260 --> 12:28.880]  Big Balls, was that his name?
[12:29.540 --> 12:30.440]  Yeah, Big Balls.
[12:30.540 --> 12:31.280]  What's he up to?
[12:31.760 --> 12:32.980]  He's working for NDS.
[12:33.860 --> 12:35.900]  Wait, is he the full-time staffer?
[12:36.220 --> 12:37.360]  No, no, no, no, no.
[12:37.600 --> 12:40.480]  I think there's one full-time staffer at USWDS.
[12:40.480 --> 12:42.040]  I think they shrunk it down to that.
[12:42.160 --> 12:48.060]  But basically, everybody who failed out of DOGE is in NDS now.
[12:48.280 --> 12:54.740]  I was reading further in this Ars Technica article, everything's AI, nothing is ADA compliant.
[12:54.740 --> 13:02.740]  And they're trying to get, if you want to go to vote.gov to check where your polling site would be, they're trying to direct that through login.gov.
[13:03.020 --> 13:07.600]  And they'll check you against the Homeland Security database before they give you the location of your polling place.
[13:07.680 --> 13:09.740]  See, this is what they are trying to do.
[13:09.800 --> 13:12.540]  And this is what everybody listening should be really concerned about.
[13:12.560 --> 13:15.480]  When they say, you know, voter ID, it's so simple.
[13:15.720 --> 13:19.640]  They want to track you, they want to collect your identity.
[13:20.100 --> 13:24.880]  All these things that are completely unconstitutional, as far as running elections.
[13:25.020 --> 13:26.280]  Elections are run by the states.
[13:26.440 --> 13:27.600]  The states decide this.
[13:28.520 --> 13:37.160]  Now, to federalize all that and to create massive databases and keep track of everybody, that is very, very dangerous.
[13:37.480 --> 13:38.360]  And they don't tell you that.
[13:38.480 --> 13:42.780]  They don't tell you that it's not a simple thing of simply flashing your driver's license.
[13:42.920 --> 13:44.960]  No, you have to get enhanced ID.
[13:45.120 --> 13:47.020]  You have to get your birth certificate.
[13:47.320 --> 13:48.300]  Good luck tracking that down.
[13:48.400 --> 13:50.600]  I know a lot of people don't know where theirs are.
[13:51.020 --> 13:52.980]  And it's designed.
[13:52.980 --> 13:58.860]  It is designed to keep people from voting, to narrow it down as much as possible.
[13:58.920 --> 14:00.040]  You have a married name.
[14:00.380 --> 14:01.560]  That's going to be a challenge.
[14:01.560 --> 14:04.180]  And a lot of people just won't take the time.
[14:04.340 --> 14:05.200]  You don't have a passport.
[14:05.300 --> 14:06.100]  A lot of people don't.
[14:06.300 --> 14:08.260]  You're not going to get one just to go vote.
[14:09.300 --> 14:10.220]  It's expensive.
[14:10.280 --> 14:11.320]  It's inconvenient.
[14:12.060 --> 14:18.320]  And it is intrusive, because they will be keeping a database throughout the entire country.
[14:18.560 --> 14:20.360]  And we all need to be fighting this.
[14:20.480 --> 14:22.800]  We all need to realize how dangerous this actually is.
[14:24.440 --> 14:25.060]  Don't wait.
[14:25.180 --> 14:25.620]  There's more.
[14:25.800 --> 14:26.760]  I'm sure there is.
[14:27.020 --> 14:27.780]  Oh, there is.
[14:27.840 --> 14:28.640]  This is my new favorite.
[14:29.460 --> 14:38.020]  So a lot of the stuff that's in this Ars Technica article came from a Guardian article that published a few days ago, or a few days previous to this article.
[14:40.600 --> 14:56.500]  Guardian's reporting also confirmed that four federal sites built by NDS, ndstudio.gov, trumprx.gov, realfood.gov, and trumpaccounts.gov, run, quote, commercial visitor tracking software that's, quote, configured to evade the privacy tools many web users install.
[14:56.740 --> 14:59.500]  And that should tell you everything you need to know about their motivations.
[14:59.780 --> 15:00.520]  Really should.
[15:00.860 --> 15:03.600]  You know, we've been tracking things like this for years, decades.
[15:04.180 --> 15:09.120]  And we always try to let our listeners know when something is dangerous, when something is violating your privacy.
[15:09.760 --> 15:11.980]  This government is doing that.
[15:12.140 --> 15:15.140]  They don't care if it violates the law.
[15:15.320 --> 15:18.360]  They don't care if it's technically clumsy.
[15:19.220 --> 15:28.240]  They just want to profit and to violate privacy and just benefit themselves, tear the country apart.
[15:28.480 --> 15:29.160]  Doesn't matter.
[15:30.040 --> 15:30.540]  All right.
[15:30.580 --> 15:33.000]  I said I didn't want to talk about him very much, and I don't.
[15:33.080 --> 15:35.020]  But there is one more thing I just want to mention.
[15:35.160 --> 15:36.760]  And Alex, I think you'll appreciate this.
[15:36.960 --> 15:40.420]  A federal judge today ordered that the writer E.
[15:40.540 --> 15:52.800]  Jean Carroll should promptly receive a $5 million jury award days after the Supreme Court rejected an appeal by Trump, and despite his last-minute attempt to get the justices to reconsider.
[15:52.940 --> 15:59.020]  I didn't know if the Supreme Court ruled on something you could appeal to the same people.
[15:59.020 --> 16:00.360]  I didn't realize that.
[16:00.540 --> 16:04.600]  But of course, Trump gets whatever he wants, so he got them to reconsider.
[16:04.740 --> 16:05.960]  I don't know if they reconsidered yet.
[16:06.340 --> 16:14.100]  But the two-page order issued today was from a Judge Lewis Kaplan of Manhattan federal courts.
[16:14.480 --> 16:30.240]  He cited the Supreme Court's June 29th order denying Trump's request that the justices review the matter, and that cleared the way for the funds which Trump had deposited with the court to be released to Ms. Carroll, which is the very, very least that can be done at this stage.
[16:30.320 --> 16:34.980]  But the thing that makes this story interesting and relevant is the name of the judge, Judge Lewis A.
[16:35.100 --> 16:39.080]  Kaplan, who was my judge during the DECSS trial of 2000.
[16:39.720 --> 16:44.220]  Fond memories of that hot courtroom.
[16:45.460 --> 16:47.440]  It was July, I believe, of 2000.
[16:48.260 --> 16:52.600]  Ultimately losing the case, being glared at by Judge Kaplan quite a bit.
[16:53.380 --> 16:57.240]  But, hey, this clears everything, I think.
[16:57.360 --> 16:59.100]  Just, he's doing the right thing here.
[16:59.560 --> 17:00.540]  Any thoughts, Alex?
[17:01.500 --> 17:09.880]  Yeah, Judge Kaplan, again, I mean, he's had quite a few cases before him that were really momentous, I think.
[17:10.600 --> 17:13.620]  And remember, you didn't just lose before Judge Kaplan.
[17:13.820 --> 17:16.760]  You also lost in the Second Circuit as well.
[17:17.240 --> 17:18.920]  Oh, you didn't need to bring that up, but sure.
[17:19.060 --> 17:21.140]  Okay, yeah, I lost in two different courts.
[17:21.320 --> 17:21.580]  All right.
[17:21.920 --> 17:24.720]  And I probably would have lost in the Supreme Court had it gone to there.
[17:24.940 --> 17:28.960]  So, I could have gotten a hat trick, but we didn't decide to do that.
[17:29.440 --> 17:29.760]  Maybe.
[17:29.820 --> 17:29.820]  Maybe.
[17:29.880 --> 17:32.740]  But the caption of the case was Universal Studios v.
[17:33.060 --> 17:36.240]  Ramirez, I believe, even though it's known as the 2600.
[17:36.360 --> 17:41.200]  That was the poor guy who was initially indicted or charged.
[17:41.500 --> 17:43.640]  And then the federal government said, hey, wait a minute.
[17:43.660 --> 17:44.800]  We've got hackers here.
[17:45.160 --> 17:49.520]  Let's go with them instead, because that'll certainly get the public on our side.
[17:49.640 --> 17:50.360]  And they were right.
[17:50.680 --> 17:52.180]  That's kind of how you do it.
[17:52.320 --> 17:53.960]  But the name was never changed.
[17:54.220 --> 17:55.360]  And that's okay with me.
[17:55.720 --> 17:57.720]  So it's someone else's name on that case.
[17:58.240 --> 18:00.780]  But yeah, we did lose the case.
[18:00.960 --> 18:03.240]  And it was the wrong decision.
[18:03.460 --> 18:05.760]  But, you know, technology marches on.
[18:05.920 --> 18:09.720]  People have figured out a way to get around these ridiculous rulings.
[18:10.580 --> 18:17.900]  Well, I think if the case was brought today, it might have worked a different result, ultimately, right?
[18:17.900 --> 18:20.140]  Well, people wouldn't know what a DVD is, for one thing.
[18:20.960 --> 18:21.600]  Yeah, that's right.
[18:21.680 --> 18:24.380]  It might have been just a totally moot issue at this point.
[18:24.440 --> 18:29.740]  But let's just say it was about encryption and it was about code and whether or not code could be free speech.
[18:29.860 --> 18:40.700]  I mean, this case is still cited to this day, known as the 2600 DCSS case, you know, about the proposition as to whether or not code, source code can be equated with speech.
[18:41.160 --> 18:44.800]  So, you know, I think maybe it was just a bit of ahead of ahead of its time.
[18:44.980 --> 18:50.680]  It was 26 years ago, which, you know, was a totally different world at that point.
[18:50.680 --> 19:00.600]  But, you know, the fact that Lewis Kaplan is still on the bench, still cranky, still issuing orders, and I think he's doing what he's supposed to be doing, which is... Isn't every judge cranky, though?
[19:01.600 --> 19:03.320]  You know, most of them are.
[19:03.540 --> 19:08.000]  I have found some that should be crankier than they are, as well.
[19:08.120 --> 19:18.140]  Like, there's one judge in the Southern District of New York that I think just tolerates far too much gamesmanship from various people and should get angry.
[19:18.240 --> 19:20.940]  And some judges get angry, you know, at the top of a hat.
[19:21.540 --> 19:25.600]  But, you know, judges have to really, they have to call it like they see it, right?
[19:25.700 --> 19:28.100]  And I think Lewis Kaplan is calling it like he sees it.
[19:28.240 --> 19:32.700]  I mean, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and you get to call it out for what it is.
[19:32.820 --> 19:36.940]  And so, you know, Lewis Kaplan, I think, you know, we have to applaud him in some ways.
[19:37.140 --> 19:46.380]  He's doing a good job, being a good federal judge, being objective and doing what he's supposed to do, which is be the bulwark of this republic, pushing back against tyranny.
[19:46.380 --> 19:47.660]  All right.
[19:47.880 --> 19:54.800]  And that concludes our critique of current rulers of our current regime.
[19:55.020 --> 20:01.060]  But it brings us to another theme of the program tonight, which is old technology.
[20:01.380 --> 20:09.600]  A great article in the Times today, entitled Facts and Telegram, New York's Archaic Requirements Get an AI Overhaul.
[20:09.600 --> 20:11.840]  Well, let's read the beginning of it.
[20:11.980 --> 20:26.980]  Should a serious boiler accident occur on one of New York's last steam trains, state law requires operators to notify the Department of Transportation as promptly as possible, but only by phone or telegram.
[20:27.920 --> 20:28.560]  Yes.
[20:28.880 --> 20:30.780]  Can you even send a telegram anymore?
[20:31.000 --> 20:31.780]  I'd like to try.
[20:32.500 --> 20:39.660]  Organizations looking to amend their charitable bingo licenses must remember to print out three copies of their application to the Gaming Commission.
[20:39.860 --> 20:44.760]  Those hoping to appeal Department of Conservation findings on wetlands will need six.
[20:45.060 --> 20:54.740]  And despite the widespread access to email, there are more than 350 instances where the law requires documents to be transmitted via fax or the United States Postal Service.
[20:54.840 --> 20:58.620]  I didn't know that was archaic, but I guess it's becoming that way.
[20:58.720 --> 21:00.520]  And we'll have some examples of that coming up, too.
[21:01.120 --> 21:09.340]  Now, these are just a few of the outdated and burdensome requirements that have been flagged in a new artificial intelligence project ordered up by Governor Hochul.
[21:09.520 --> 21:28.300]  The effort is called Regulatory Reset, and it'll deploy AI to comb through roughly 18 million words of codified statute to find references to fees, signature or notary requirements, fax, mail, telegraph, and other outdated technologies, as well as task forces,
[21:28.480 --> 21:29.960]  councils, and mandatory reports.
[21:30.240 --> 21:36.520]  We have laws on the books that require a special permit for a woman to work later hours, said Ms. Hochul.
[21:37.480 --> 21:39.620]  It's New York Times, and that's how they refer to the governor.
[21:39.980 --> 21:41.820]  No wonder people get so frustrated.
[21:41.820 --> 21:43.260]  So I'm getting rid of that.
[21:44.780 --> 21:46.680]  I guess it kind of makes sense, right?
[21:46.720 --> 21:47.260]  Do you approve, Kyle?
[21:47.520 --> 21:58.600]  Yeah, I kind of like the idea of just sort of accelerating a lot of stuff that would take a really long time to draw connections and make sense of.
[21:58.780 --> 22:26.260]  So like, using what's available to increase the analytic ability of a big bureaucracy like the state of New York just seems like a fair use or a normal use that, of course, you'd hope was supervised and not something that's an audible, but no less important.
[22:26.580 --> 22:40.100]  Like, it's a great way to use the resources to make the institution and the processes of it more usable themselves as the general public interfaces with it.
[22:40.280 --> 22:40.600]  Mm-hmm.
[22:40.860 --> 22:41.480]  Yeah.
[22:41.720 --> 22:53.140]  And, you know, there are lots of examples here of things that are just outdated, whether it's the way people are referred to or the technology.
[22:53.420 --> 23:00.740]  I mean, they focus on the absurdity of maintaining a fax machine in 2026.
[23:01.340 --> 23:02.680]  I take exception to that.
[23:02.840 --> 23:03.900]  I happen to have a fax machine.
[23:04.040 --> 23:04.800]  It's plugged in.
[23:05.620 --> 23:07.820]  Nothing really comes across, but it's there.
[23:08.000 --> 23:09.420]  It's there if you need it.
[23:09.480 --> 23:13.560]  What I'm impressed by is that fax technology hasn't really changed at all.
[23:13.840 --> 23:17.840]  I mean, I'm sure people are sending color faxes, but I don't get any of those.
[23:17.980 --> 23:20.240]  Mine look the same as they did in the 1980s.
[23:21.420 --> 23:25.440]  I don't have thermal paper anymore, but yeah, some of this technology.
[23:27.340 --> 23:28.280]  But the telephone?
[23:28.560 --> 23:32.520]  Is the telephone considered outdated technology to most of us?
[23:32.620 --> 23:34.080]  I know it is to many.
[23:34.340 --> 23:38.120]  Many people don't have landlines, and they think it's antiquated technology.
[23:38.460 --> 23:44.620]  But there's another article in the Times called Eight Ways to Create a Light Tech Summer for Your Kids.
[23:45.260 --> 23:46.280]  And guess what?
[23:46.440 --> 23:55.440]  People are embracing the old technology and realizing that this is a way to reclaim some of your time.
[23:55.960 --> 23:58.440]  They have all of these examples.
[23:58.640 --> 24:01.240]  They have the original portable communicator.
[24:01.900 --> 24:13.180]  It's a Midland T10 X-Talker, a pair of tiny, lightweight radios that perform almost as well as sets that cost five times more and maybe even more amusing for kids.
[24:13.400 --> 24:20.440]  Yeah, it's a walkie-talkie, and this is what they are recommending for kids to get through the summer.
[24:20.580 --> 24:22.740]  There's the Tin Can.
[24:24.040 --> 24:34.440]  This plug-in corded phone is screen-free and designed to let kids communicate with family and friends without a smart device.
[24:34.620 --> 24:35.280]  Demand is high.
[24:35.460 --> 24:37.500]  Current orders won't ship until July.
[24:38.220 --> 24:39.240]  It's a telephone.
[24:39.480 --> 24:45.300]  It's a damn landline, but they're treating it like it's something brand new, and people are getting really, really excited about that.
[24:45.460 --> 24:46.540]  The Tin Can.
[24:46.540 --> 24:48.340]  They actually have a name for it.
[24:48.880 --> 24:50.200]  And it's not telephone.
[24:51.100 --> 24:55.380]  It's got a long, curly cord that connects the handset to the base.
[24:55.920 --> 24:57.560]  It's a pastel color.
[24:58.080 --> 25:01.540]  It basically is a return to that time of long, rambling conversations.
[25:03.000 --> 25:08.060]  And it's for kids because, well, we're lost, I guess.
[25:08.160 --> 25:11.000]  There's no hope for us, but there is hope for the children.
[25:11.120 --> 25:11.280]  Keela?
[25:12.000 --> 25:19.280]  If I could quote a line from the book of Ecclesiastes, which seems kind of relevant at this particular point, right?
[25:19.400 --> 25:22.280]  There is nothing new under the sun.
[25:22.500 --> 25:24.640]  Everyone thinks they've discovered something new.
[25:24.860 --> 25:31.840]  There's a camera that is marketed for kids who are at summer camp and aren't allowed to have screens.
[25:31.840 --> 25:33.960]  It is a screen-free camera.
[25:36.440 --> 25:41.340]  And shockingly enough, it looks like the camera I had when I was little.
[25:42.340 --> 25:43.200]  Oh, my goodness.
[25:43.320 --> 25:44.220]  Do I see a walkie-talkie?
[25:44.920 --> 25:48.540]  Yeah, I was just going to mention, I really like this idea.
[25:49.520 --> 25:57.060]  Things like video cameras and photography, like you're mentioning, and other ways to do things like communicate.
[25:57.560 --> 25:58.880]  They're really fun.
[25:59.700 --> 26:03.440]  And you can really let people check them out.
[26:03.560 --> 26:08.700]  They might not otherwise be exposed to it, because all they have is tablets and that kind of stuff.
[26:09.600 --> 26:12.600]  Well, I completely agree with that myself.
[26:13.240 --> 26:19.360]  We've had these little toy walkie-talkies that don't cost anything.
[26:19.540 --> 26:22.200]  They're really cheap, and you can get them at big-box stores.
[26:23.800 --> 26:30.360]  And sometimes when Kyle and I are in different vehicles, driving to various places, we communicate that way.
[26:30.520 --> 26:33.380]  And it's really... it's really efficient.
[26:36.880 --> 26:38.300]  What about CB radios?
[26:38.620 --> 26:39.860]  Oh, no, no.
[26:40.280 --> 26:42.720]  I've never been into CB radios.
[26:42.880 --> 26:44.560]  But no, a lot of people are.
[26:44.620 --> 26:45.800]  I don't know if people still talk on them.
[26:46.300 --> 26:46.780]  Alex?
[26:47.000 --> 26:47.380]  Yeah.
[26:47.660 --> 26:53.860]  Yeah, I had a CB radio in my car just to see if people were still using these things a couple of years ago.
[26:54.620 --> 26:56.500]  And I have to say, you know, people still do.
[26:56.640 --> 26:57.520]  It's mostly truckers.
[26:57.520 --> 27:01.560]  And there's this whole line of communication that happens while you're along the highways.
[27:02.060 --> 27:03.340]  The truckers still talk to each other.
[27:03.460 --> 27:04.900]  They talk about where the cops are.
[27:05.060 --> 27:09.020]  They have their own lingo for various things that they see.
[27:09.440 --> 27:13.180]  So, for instance, you know, like if there's a cop, they call them... what do they call them?
[27:13.220 --> 27:13.800]  Do you know what they call them?
[27:13.800 --> 27:15.080]  Uh, yes.
[27:15.380 --> 27:16.640]  Um, oh, wow.
[27:16.740 --> 27:17.080]  Bears.
[27:17.260 --> 27:17.760]  They call them bears.
[27:18.340 --> 27:19.700]  Yeah, or a smokey, right?
[27:20.180 --> 27:20.920]  Smokey the bear.
[27:21.120 --> 27:21.500]  Yeah, yeah.
[27:21.940 --> 27:26.040]  And then if you have a smokey roll in discos, what's a smokey roll in discos?
[27:26.360 --> 27:28.260]  Uh, I don't know.
[27:28.780 --> 27:29.680]  Go ahead, Gila.
[27:30.300 --> 27:31.920]  Is it a cop car with its lights on?
[27:32.440 --> 27:32.820]  Absolutely.
[27:32.840 --> 27:33.620]  You got it.
[27:33.680 --> 27:34.460]  I guess that makes sense.
[27:35.180 --> 27:37.820]  Yeah, that's like an active chase or something like that.
[27:37.920 --> 27:39.440]  Oh, there's a smokey roll in discos.
[27:39.820 --> 27:41.920]  Do you know what a Volkswagen bug is called?
[27:43.080 --> 27:43.440]  No.
[27:43.720 --> 27:44.400]  A roller skate.
[27:45.800 --> 27:47.060]  Oh, I can see that.
[27:47.140 --> 27:48.780]  Yeah, that makes sense.
[27:49.080 --> 27:49.660]  Yeah, yeah.
[27:49.940 --> 27:51.300]  But it is pretty cool.
[27:51.540 --> 27:55.120]  I would encourage people to check out CB radio when you're driving.
[27:55.840 --> 27:57.580]  It's a way to talk with the truckers.
[27:57.720 --> 28:00.340]  Well, how do you check out CB radio while you're driving?
[28:00.440 --> 28:01.700]  You have to get a CB radio, don't you?
[28:01.700 --> 28:02.620]  You got to get a CB radio.
[28:02.620 --> 28:05.360]  You got to get an antenna and a CB radio, install it in your car.
[28:05.600 --> 28:06.540]  You know, all these things that work.
[28:06.760 --> 28:06.800]  The antenna in your car.
[28:06.980 --> 28:07.140]  Uh-huh.
[28:07.340 --> 28:07.700]  Exactly.
[28:07.940 --> 28:08.060]  Yep.
[28:08.200 --> 28:08.300]  Yeah.
[28:08.300 --> 28:08.340]  Yeah.
[28:08.900 --> 28:10.900]  And then just start talking.
[28:11.080 --> 28:12.040]  You have various channels.
[28:12.180 --> 28:16.540]  I think channel nine is still the emergency channel for CB radio, I believe.
[28:17.200 --> 28:18.460]  But it's neat to...
[28:18.460 --> 28:19.140]  There's 40 channels.
[28:19.260 --> 28:20.880]  Do people really use 40 channels?
[28:22.660 --> 28:24.080]  Not really anymore.
[28:24.080 --> 28:25.060]  I don't think so.
[28:25.160 --> 28:27.880]  There's not a lot of chatter amongst everything.
[28:28.220 --> 28:35.400]  But, you know, it is neat to be a part of these conversations that are happening all around you while you're driving.
[28:36.140 --> 28:39.160]  I would just add, you don't have to necessarily be in a car.
[28:39.680 --> 28:48.300]  Um, you could install a CB radio, like, in your tree house or on the back of, uh, your bike or something.
[28:48.300 --> 28:53.280]  You know, like, there's plenty of ways to, uh, get it configured.
[28:53.280 --> 28:56.560]  Have you ever seen anybody riding a bike on a CB radio?
[28:56.560 --> 28:57.840]  Yeah, all the time.
[28:58.240 --> 29:01.520]  I see them on their phones all the time, but a CB radio...
[29:01.520 --> 29:02.220]  It's a phone?
[29:02.920 --> 29:04.520]  That actually might be safer, though.
[29:04.620 --> 29:14.480]  They're just holding the microphone, the corded microphone, and the, and the CB radio is attached to the bike rather than holding a phone and, and, and, um, sometimes without steering at all.
[29:14.480 --> 29:17.740]  Well, maybe miniaturization has come to the CB world.
[29:17.880 --> 29:18.820]  We're just not aware of it.
[29:19.040 --> 29:22.220]  Well, you know, CB radios are not included on this list for some reason.
[29:22.400 --> 29:23.860]  They, they, they skipped over those.
[29:23.980 --> 29:27.540]  Well, that's unfortunate, because they would come with nicknames, too.
[29:27.820 --> 29:28.740]  Yeah, you know what?
[29:28.820 --> 29:33.040]  It's, um, what better way for your children to meet cold strangers over the air?
[29:33.280 --> 29:33.960]  That's, uh...
[29:33.960 --> 29:35.140]  That is actually what...
[29:35.140 --> 29:36.820]  I can't imagine why they don't want to do that.
[29:36.820 --> 29:52.020]  The handles part is actually one of the funnier parts of, of CB radio, because if you are, uh, on the roadway a lot... I mean, I remember a parts delivery person talking to me, talking to me about this, and they had their own nickname, uh, based on, like,
[29:52.060 --> 29:53.840]  the color of their car and stuff like that.
[29:53.940 --> 29:54.720]  And you know what?
[29:54.900 --> 29:57.840]  CB predates the, the modern hacker culture.
[29:58.260 --> 30:03.660]  People were using nicknames in the CB culture before hackers were using nicknames in the hacker culture.
[30:03.800 --> 30:05.520]  And I know, you know, there are exceptions to that.
[30:05.740 --> 30:06.920]  You know, hackers go way back, I know.
[30:07.160 --> 30:11.400]  But for the most part, you know, in the 1980s, that's when it, it really started to take off.
[30:11.660 --> 30:16.360]  Um, yeah, that's, that's when, uh, a lot of handles were created for the first time.
[30:16.640 --> 30:16.960]  Yeah.
[30:18.180 --> 30:21.720]  My grandparents had CB radios in their cars.
[30:21.840 --> 30:27.600]  They would drive in tandem between the city they lived in and a slightly larger city that was about an hour away.
[30:27.720 --> 30:30.940]  And they would communicate via CB radio the whole trip.
[30:31.220 --> 30:45.920]  And I remember learning about this when I was four years old, and my grandfather's CB handle was banana man, banana man, banana man, because my grandparents owned a grocery store and grandpa specialized in produce.
[30:46.080 --> 30:52.740]  So banana man, I was four years old and didn't understand the difference between a CB radio and a walkie talkie.
[30:52.880 --> 30:57.480]  So every 30 seconds, I hopped on the CB and said, banana man, what's your 20?
[30:57.700 --> 30:59.080]  Cause I just thought it sounded cool.
[30:59.800 --> 31:06.480]  And then I found out that other people were also on the same band and I got in trouble and had the microphone taken away from me.
[31:06.660 --> 31:07.880]  Well, who, how'd you get in trouble?
[31:07.960 --> 31:09.800]  You don't need a license to be on the CB.
[31:10.420 --> 31:14.340]  No, but I was told I was hugging the airwaves.
[31:14.500 --> 31:17.320]  Cause I, I thought it was just a way to talk to my grandparents in the other car.
[31:19.100 --> 31:21.800]  How powerful, how powerful was, was your rig?
[31:23.880 --> 31:24.980]  I'm using terminology.
[31:24.980 --> 31:25.440]  That's true.
[31:25.440 --> 31:28.980]  We had a really tall antenna on the car.
[31:29.160 --> 31:30.220]  I remember this distinctly.
[31:30.840 --> 31:37.080]  And yes, I was told that I was tying up the line and was not allowing other people to speak.
[31:37.280 --> 31:41.720]  That's such a parental phrase tying up the line when it's a CB radio.
[31:42.040 --> 31:42.900]  I was four years old.
[31:43.060 --> 31:43.780]  They needed me to stop talking.
[31:43.960 --> 31:48.640]  Well, hearing a four year old on a CB channel might've annoyed some people if it was incessant, I guess.
[31:49.640 --> 31:53.380]  It's a good opportunity to learn to listen as well as speak.
[31:53.700 --> 31:55.920]  And, uh, teaching that is, is important.
[31:56.080 --> 31:57.340]  And let go of the microphone button.
[31:57.500 --> 31:57.640]  Yeah.
[31:57.760 --> 31:59.400]  That's a part of the listening.
[31:59.640 --> 32:01.380]  You do it with a switch in this case.
[32:01.500 --> 32:03.000]  Uh, wow.
[32:03.100 --> 32:10.540]  Well, you know, um, unlike ham radio where you need a license, uh, it's, there's so many different kinds of radio.
[32:10.740 --> 32:20.460]  I mean, this is FM radio right now, but I've been, I've been really impressed by the number of ham, um, uh, talks that, uh, are happening next month at the conference.
[32:20.680 --> 32:24.960]  And, uh, that's the people getting involved in, in the hacker world.
[32:25.080 --> 32:29.700]  That's, uh, we've always had that, but it's, it's like tripled, quadrupled since.
[32:30.060 --> 32:30.960]  So it's really fascinating.
[32:31.000 --> 32:32.440]  And there's, there's so many different perspectives.
[32:32.540 --> 32:34.720]  It's not, it's not a boring culture.
[32:34.920 --> 32:36.340]  It's not, it's not a monolithic culture.
[32:36.500 --> 32:49.760]  It's, it's, it's filled with variety and, uh, I hope, I hope it gets to grow and, um, and, and that people appreciate it because, you know, ham, uh, is something that you can communicate around the world with, you know, um, uh, CB is a good introduction,
[32:49.760 --> 32:53.300]  but you learn so much more with the ham radio culture.
[32:53.560 --> 32:57.560]  And, um, uh, it's just great to see that interface with the hacker culture.
[32:57.720 --> 32:59.000]  What does ham stand for?
[32:59.180 --> 33:00.340]  Oh, why do you ask me that?
[33:01.560 --> 33:08.070]  None of us know, obviously that silence indicates how ignorant we are.
[33:08.370 --> 33:09.610]  High amplitude, might or what?
[33:09.950 --> 33:10.690]  I don't know.
[33:10.810 --> 33:11.810]  I'm sure Gila will look it up.
[33:13.610 --> 33:14.010]  Yeah.
[33:14.450 --> 33:14.590]  Yeah.
[33:14.790 --> 33:16.330]  I actually don't know off the top of my head.
[33:16.430 --> 33:30.310]  I don't, I don't know, but I am hopeful to acquire my ham radio license this August though, at a particular conference that's going to happen in New York, um, where ham radio license exams are, are routinely conducted.
[33:30.530 --> 33:30.870]  Uh-huh.
[33:31.310 --> 33:37.850]  Uh, this is something I've been meaning to do at this particular conference for many, many years and, uh, and haven't done it.
[33:37.930 --> 33:43.010]  But I, I think, I think I finally have the aptitude to sort out the math for my ham radio license.
[33:43.150 --> 33:46.350]  Uh, Gila, you have a look of amazement and shock on your face.
[33:46.470 --> 33:46.910]  What, what, what?
[33:47.230 --> 33:48.570]  I totally do.
[33:48.690 --> 34:03.850]  If I could quote Wikipedia at great length, the term ham was originally a pejorative used in professional wired telegraphy during the 19th century to mock operators with poor Morse code sending skills, as in they were ham-fisted.
[34:04.230 --> 34:04.670]  Wait a minute.
[34:04.850 --> 34:06.750]  Why would they mock those people back then?
[34:07.590 --> 34:12.790]  Oh, so if you're an amateur, you're ham-fisted, you're bad at doing the, uh, telegraph.
[34:13.070 --> 34:13.210]  Right.
[34:13.410 --> 34:14.770]  But they were the people doing it.
[34:15.330 --> 34:18.590]  But they were saying that they were the amateurs, right?
[34:18.690 --> 34:19.490]  They weren't the professionals.
[34:19.590 --> 34:21.550]  They weren't doing it correctly or doing it well.
[34:21.750 --> 34:23.590]  It was a gatekeep-y type of thing.
[34:23.590 --> 34:25.390]  That's familiar, actually.
[34:25.650 --> 34:25.710]  Wow.
[34:26.070 --> 34:26.570]  Okay.
[34:26.990 --> 34:27.290]  Okay.
[34:27.590 --> 34:34.710]  Um, the term continued to be used after the invention of radio and the subsequent proliferation of amateur experimentation with wireless telegraphy.
[34:34.890 --> 34:40.330]  Among both land-based and sea-based professional radio telegraphers, ham amateurs were considered a nuisance.
[34:40.510 --> 34:46.850]  The use of ham to mean amateurish or unskilled survives to this day in another discipline like ham actor.
[34:47.130 --> 34:51.430]  The amateur radio community subsequently reclaimed the word as a label of pride.
[34:51.710 --> 34:54.210]  And by the mid-20th century, it had lost its pejorative meaning.
[34:54.350 --> 34:54.790]  Wait a minute.
[34:54.890 --> 34:55.250]  Hold on.
[34:55.350 --> 34:57.950]  This is so much a parallel to the word hacker.
[34:58.370 --> 35:00.690]  I think that's, uh, that's the parallel.
[35:01.250 --> 35:02.050]  That's incredible.
[35:02.210 --> 35:02.850]  I had no idea.
[35:02.870 --> 35:06.070]  I had no idea that that ham was, was used in that way.
[35:06.270 --> 35:08.090]  We totally got to remind ourselves of this stuff.
[35:08.290 --> 35:12.830]  It, it, we get so, uh, caught up doing, uh, you know, everyday stuff.
[35:13.030 --> 35:14.390]  We haven't reclaimed the word yet.
[35:14.390 --> 35:18.210]  It's still being used in a bad way, but I don't know anybody who uses ham in a bad way.
[35:19.390 --> 35:21.310]  Or they call people hacks, you know?
[35:24.130 --> 35:26.250]  So I think a ham, right?
[35:26.330 --> 35:28.170]  Like an actor who's hamming it up.
[35:28.550 --> 35:32.150]  It is kind of a, it can be somewhat pejorative.
[35:32.330 --> 35:34.110]  Well, in that, in that context, yes.
[35:34.690 --> 35:43.990]  And in the same way, I think, you know, this is something that you get out there and reclaim, but ham was a pejorative over a hundred years ago.
[35:44.610 --> 35:52.030]  I think if we check back in, in 50 years, maybe hacker won't be seen as a pejorative anymore either.
[35:52.210 --> 36:00.290]  Well, maybe the ham community can help the hacker community regain its name and, and pride in that name and kick the mass media out of defining it.
[36:02.330 --> 36:08.210]  Maybe we just need to give it time, but yes, um, Kyle, it is not an acronym or an initialism.
[36:08.210 --> 36:12.250]  So now I'm wondering, is an amateur ham a ham ham?
[36:12.730 --> 36:16.650]  And do they, like, get judgmental about new hams?
[36:16.790 --> 36:29.730]  Because that's going to be something that emerges when you, you tell people about this stuff and they get into it, they get, they, you know, and of course, people who've been involved for a long time, they've kind of, uh, a lot of familiarity.
[36:30.350 --> 36:30.610]  So.
[36:31.030 --> 36:31.510]  Right.
[36:31.550 --> 36:32.690]  Like you're an aged ham.
[36:33.390 --> 36:33.870]  Right.
[36:33.870 --> 36:42.410]  Or, or if you're, you know, in a bad mood, you're, you're a salty ham, or if you're really friendly, you're like a honeyed ham.
[36:42.930 --> 36:44.410]  I think this could go places, Kyle.
[36:44.570 --> 36:45.410]  I'm really excited about this.
[36:45.470 --> 36:54.810]  You know, um, we're going to have to go places soon because, uh, we're off the air in a little bit, but I'm only up to number three of this, uh, uh, uh, I wanted to know, like tech devices for your kids.
[36:54.990 --> 36:57.110]  I realized we got a little bit sidetracked, so let's go.
[36:57.150 --> 36:58.410]  What are the other things?
[36:58.570 --> 37:00.470]  Because I mean, a lot of people, I, I've noticed this.
[37:00.610 --> 37:06.530]  They're out, um, they want to not be, uh, attached to this, like, you know.
[37:06.770 --> 37:08.670]  Well, we've got the walkie-talkie.
[37:08.770 --> 37:09.750]  We've got the telephone.
[37:10.070 --> 37:13.350]  How about a, um, nostalgic digital camera?
[37:13.510 --> 37:15.370]  It's called the Camp Snap 2.
[37:15.590 --> 37:20.590]  It's a digital screen-free camera that can take 500 shots on a single charge.
[37:21.070 --> 37:22.890]  Um, yeah, that's what I was talking about.
[37:23.030 --> 37:23.430]  No screen.
[37:23.610 --> 37:26.210]  It's inexpensive, reusable, and rechargeable.
[37:26.450 --> 37:32.410]  Uh, and, um, yeah, I don't think that you can, uh, you can see what the pictures you take right away.
[37:32.550 --> 37:35.470]  You have to go home and plug it into a computer and see it then.
[37:36.350 --> 37:36.750]  Right.
[37:36.950 --> 37:45.870]  But you also don't have to, you know, you're not limited to 24 pictures or however many rolls of film you remember to pack for your entire summer.
[37:46.050 --> 37:47.290]  Well, those days are long gone.
[37:47.450 --> 37:48.790]  I don't know anybody who does that anymore.
[37:49.010 --> 37:50.450]  I don't even know where to buy a roll of film.
[37:50.770 --> 37:52.450]  No, but I'm thinking about when I was a kid.
[37:52.610 --> 37:52.750]  Right.
[37:52.950 --> 37:58.630]  But today, if you take a picture, kids are going to expect to see the picture immediately or a video.
[37:58.990 --> 38:08.410]  And in this particular case, it looks, you know, pretty old-fashioned, but, you know, the number is higher, uh, several hundred, but you still have to, um, have to plug it into something else to see what it looks like.
[38:09.910 --> 38:10.270]  Patience.
[38:10.410 --> 38:11.110]  That's what people learn.
[38:11.510 --> 38:15.730]  Uh, another camera, the, uh, Fuji Film Instax Mini 12.
[38:15.970 --> 38:18.930]  It's a battery-powered toy-like instant camera.
[38:18.930 --> 38:25.670]  Uh, it turns on when you twist the lens, something that kids in these tests found surprisingly entertaining.
[38:26.190 --> 38:26.550]  Yeah.
[38:26.650 --> 38:28.130]  You never know what's going to entertain kids.
[38:28.230 --> 38:31.750]  And apparently twisting the lens is, um, is, is a big thing for them.
[38:32.650 --> 38:32.690]  Emmanuel?
[38:32.910 --> 38:33.010]  Yes.
[38:33.010 --> 38:34.130]  Is that the one that prints stickers?
[38:34.910 --> 38:36.230]  Uh, I, you know, I'm not sure.
[38:36.570 --> 38:40.830]  Um, maybe what, what, what's the, uh, what's the allure there?
[38:41.790 --> 38:50.250]  So it was like a Polaroid camera, but instead of like a plain old picture, it printed with sticky on the, on the back.
[38:50.330 --> 38:56.230]  So you could stick it directly into a scrapbook or a notebook or whatever.
[38:56.650 --> 38:56.810]  Yep.
[38:57.010 --> 38:58.610]  And you didn't lose them.
[38:59.650 --> 39:04.390]  I see a picture of this and it looks like it's doing just that, but they don't describe that anywhere.
[39:04.770 --> 39:09.470]  Um, but yeah, that seems like a, I mean, Polaroid cameras, they were, they were a thing.
[39:09.550 --> 39:13.230]  That was the closest thing you could get to a digital camera that showed you what the picture looked like.
[39:13.290 --> 39:17.850]  You still have to wait about 90 seconds for it to really, uh, uh, uh, develop in front of you.
[39:18.470 --> 39:22.690]  Uh, but, um, yeah, this is, um, this is something that I think would be very popular.
[39:22.930 --> 39:23.670]  Uh, okay.
[39:23.730 --> 39:28.830]  So now, uh, we have what's known as the Yodo player third generation.
[39:29.290 --> 39:38.330]  It's a screen free audio player that can play music, podcasts, audio books, or even a recording you make yourself.
[39:38.930 --> 39:47.130]  I believe we're talking about a tape recorder, uh, or, uh, an iPod, uh, or, you know, MP3 player of one sort or another.
[39:47.590 --> 39:50.170]  Did, how did we lose touch with these things?
[39:50.370 --> 39:51.250]  That's so basic.
[39:51.630 --> 39:54.610]  Well, they were absorbed functionally by smartphones.
[39:55.030 --> 39:55.290]  Uh-huh.
[39:55.390 --> 39:57.150]  A, they were absorbed functionally by smartphones.
[39:57.570 --> 40:00.070]  And B, this has been kind of retrofit.
[40:00.430 --> 40:10.870]  It's digital in the same way, but it's a little closer to like a Walkman or a Discman in that you have to collect little cards and cartridges to put in it.
[40:10.870 --> 40:13.510]  It's not something where you have a library inside.
[40:13.890 --> 40:14.370]  Okay.
[40:14.590 --> 40:14.890]  All right.
[40:15.030 --> 40:23.350]  But it, it, it forces you to think about what you're adding, what, what you're listening to, you know, you're going out and getting it and, and, and, and selecting it yourself.
[40:23.730 --> 40:24.210]  Yeah.
[40:25.310 --> 40:25.790]  Okay.
[40:26.250 --> 40:27.370]  I like these things.
[40:27.570 --> 40:35.810]  The, the, they really like kind of just do the thing to allow you to focus on whatever activity they're sort of in the background.
[40:35.810 --> 40:39.130]  They don't like demand all of your focus.
[40:39.350 --> 40:54.830]  So if you're playing a game or socializing or just, um, doing something, uh, in your day that this is something you can, uh, integrate and it's not going to just, uh, be a distraction or hazard even.
[40:55.170 --> 41:03.050]  And I'm curious how people use them if they maybe modify them, um, or integrate them and adapt them.
[41:03.250 --> 41:21.250]  They seem like they're a little bit more, um, friend, like tinker friendly, like you could kind of change something about it or add something that, um, yeah, makes it work better in your situation, like a, a bigger battery or some kind of, um, uh, mount that allows you to put it in,
[41:21.890 --> 41:24.870]  uh, a vehicle that you're using to camp or something like that.
[41:24.870 --> 41:32.430]  You know, it's, it's also closer to you being able to mess with it, to take it apart and, and do something and put it back together again.
[41:32.590 --> 41:45.530]  It's a little, it's a little further from what I grew up with where you could really do that, you know, uh, take your tape recorder apart and a million pieces and put it back together again, uh, or your phone or basically any device you could do that to.
[41:45.650 --> 41:47.750]  And today we're discouraged from that.
[41:47.850 --> 41:52.730]  And we have complete ignorance as to how things work or how we might be able to, to change something.
[41:53.050 --> 41:54.650]  Um, here's another example.
[41:54.750 --> 41:57.550]  Apple, uh, of course doesn't make the iPod music players anymore.
[41:57.790 --> 42:02.850]  Uh, you can find them on eBay, uh, and, and use them to upload and play your personal library of music.
[42:03.290 --> 42:11.010]  Um, but basically, um, those who still prefer streaming music services, an alternative is the screen-free Mighty 3.
[42:11.630 --> 42:21.070]  It's a small square iPod shuffle like gadget that currently syncs with Amazon music and Spotify premium streaming subscription.
[42:21.070 --> 42:23.410]  So you can upload your child's favorite playlist.
[42:23.670 --> 42:29.890]  So this is kind of, um, uh, I guess, a cross between both worlds, the, uh, the Mighty 3.
[42:30.310 --> 42:35.970]  Then there is the literal put a record on player, the Angel's Horn H019.
[42:36.710 --> 42:41.310]  Uh, it's an affordable all-in-one record player that comes with built-in speakers.
[42:41.770 --> 42:42.290]  Yeah.
[42:42.490 --> 42:43.310]  Vinyl records.
[42:43.510 --> 42:46.430]  Imagine that people really are going for vinyl records.
[42:46.570 --> 42:50.630]  And these, these aren't the only products that there are so many ways you can do.
[42:50.810 --> 42:56.050]  You could, um, go to, uh, thrift or other places that sell used electronics.
[42:56.050 --> 42:58.710]  Like these, this equipment was so prevalent.
[42:58.850 --> 43:15.530]  A lot of it is around, um, and you could pick one up and maybe you need a couple of parts or a new, um, needle, but, uh, finding a decent record player and making a little sound system or a listening station for yourself is, is, is a lot of fun and rewarding,
[43:15.570 --> 43:21.050]  especially if you go out and buy a couple like 12 inches or some, some full albums or something.
[43:21.210 --> 43:24.290]  Well, I love the way it's described here in this New York times piece.
[43:24.570 --> 43:32.270]  Um, basically, um, flipping through a stack of records by your favorite artist, each with a set of tracks.
[43:33.330 --> 43:40.190]  So, so you get a record and each one of those has a set of tracks from the artist that is on that record.
[43:40.430 --> 43:44.130]  Who knew, uh, reading and obsessing over the liner notes.
[43:44.150 --> 43:52.510]  You can, you can actually hold it in your hands, no shuffling or auto playing or repeating unless you physically move the needle.
[43:54.230 --> 43:55.530]  That's how it works.
[43:55.810 --> 44:03.370]  Um, if you're looking for that experience, uh, that, um, that's one of their picks that, that particular, uh, record player, these things are kind of expensive though.
[44:03.390 --> 44:06.410]  I gotta say, you know, uh, just to play a record.
[44:07.030 --> 44:08.910]  That's what I was mentioning, uh, alternatives.
[44:09.170 --> 44:18.970]  There's, there's plenty of, um, really high quality used ones, or you could maybe even find someone that's trying to get rid of it, you know, cause people will throw these things out.
[44:19.130 --> 44:28.250]  They just clean out or they have a garage sale, you know, it's, it's, um, it's kind of a fun thing to, to, to, to learn about you figure out like the different elements of it.
[44:28.370 --> 44:43.030]  You could teach yourself a little bit and then you, um, you're able to play like really high fidelity stuff and that tactile nature, like is always, I think, um, something get people get really passionate about, uh, particularly with, with vinyl and albums.
[44:43.130 --> 44:49.810]  Although the, the tactileness of, uh, of, of kids today really annoys me because, you know, they know everything to tap on their phone.
[44:50.070 --> 44:52.850]  You know, I touch it and it does something I don't want it to do.
[44:53.010 --> 44:55.230]  The other day I was, Oh my God.
[44:55.390 --> 44:56.690]  Uh, what was happening the other day?
[44:56.850 --> 45:04.870]  Um, I was texting somebody, uh, replying to a text and I didn't even know about this particular button, but there's, uh, what was it?
[45:04.890 --> 45:06.830]  A microphone button on the lower left of my phone?
[45:07.010 --> 45:07.710]  Well, okay.
[45:07.910 --> 45:14.170]  It's in the keypad when you're, when you're about to use your, your Google keyboard or whatever it is, I wasn't using that.
[45:14.290 --> 45:22.770]  Well, whatever, I'm sorry, Android or whatever keyboard you use on your phone, it popped up and it, it's, it was like the placement of it.
[45:22.910 --> 45:23.950]  It was the bottom left.
[45:24.290 --> 45:24.530]  I swear.
[45:24.530 --> 45:25.530]  I never saw this before.
[45:25.630 --> 45:26.230]  I think it's new.
[45:26.350 --> 45:28.410]  I think it's always been there or they added it.
[45:28.770 --> 45:29.150]  I don't know.
[45:29.250 --> 45:30.670]  This was the first time this happened.
[45:30.790 --> 45:35.630]  I was, I was, you know, seeing somebody, you know how you can see when somebody's typing, when they're sending you a message.
[45:35.870 --> 45:43.830]  Well, this time I was seeing the person word by word, like everything they, they, they typed, I was getting it one word at a time.
[45:44.030 --> 45:47.270]  And I was like, why am I seeing what they're typing live?
[45:47.370 --> 45:48.590]  This is, this is new.
[45:49.030 --> 45:55.790]  And then I was reading what was on the, the, um, the screen and it was saying the same thing I was saying.
[45:55.910 --> 45:58.490]  So what was happening was I was dictating.
[45:59.090 --> 46:02.630]  And you know, if I had hit another button, i.e.
[46:02.730 --> 46:10.390]  send everything that I said about that particular person, not all of which was positive, would have been sent to them immediately.
[46:10.550 --> 46:15.310]  And I just wonder how many times does that happen to somebody where they just brush against the microphone button.
[46:15.530 --> 46:23.290]  All of a sudden your phone is, is, is, uh, taking everything you're saying and reporting it to the person that you're talking to without you even knowing it.
[46:23.430 --> 46:26.170]  This is what annoys me about technology today.
[46:26.390 --> 46:31.490]  There's little tiny buttons, you know, uh, look at a DVD player or a cable TV remote.
[46:31.650 --> 46:33.090]  If people even still use those anymore.
[46:33.410 --> 46:38.750]  And you know, you just touched the wrong one and it does something completely unintended that you don't want.
[46:39.150 --> 46:43.810]  And if you're hitting a button that you want the remote to do something else doesn't respond.
[46:44.090 --> 46:45.490]  That's, that's been my experience.
[46:45.950 --> 46:46.750]  Alex, go ahead.
[46:47.510 --> 46:54.470]  I want to tell a, a funny story, a little, a music and amusing anecdote for the last couple of minutes that we have here.
[46:54.570 --> 46:58.770]  Like it's kind of about this old tech, you know, albums and records.
[46:58.950 --> 47:02.210]  Vinyl was, was pretty obsolete even back in the nineties.
[47:02.430 --> 47:07.890]  A lot of our listeners may not know that, but I remember one day I lived on Long Island coming back from the beach.
[47:08.010 --> 47:17.690]  I was surfing all day, I stopped at a garage sale and picked up a record of vinyl, a bit of vinyl by the guys who sang, come on Eileen.
[47:17.910 --> 47:19.510]  Do you know who sang, come on Eileen, by the way?
[47:19.610 --> 47:21.670]  It's kind of a, you know, Dexie's Midnight Runners.
[47:21.790 --> 47:22.430]  Everybody knows that.
[47:22.570 --> 47:23.150]  Dexie's Midnight Runners.
[47:23.290 --> 47:23.410]  Okay.
[47:23.550 --> 47:23.630]  Yeah.
[47:23.770 --> 47:25.130]  Everybody knows that in schools, Alex.
[47:25.790 --> 47:26.190]  They do.
[47:26.350 --> 47:28.950]  They really should actually, it would be a better place if they did.
[47:29.530 --> 47:34.230]  Anyhow, so I get a, I get the vinyl from Dexie's Midnight Runner and I was working at a software company.
[47:34.310 --> 47:35.010]  Runners, Runners, S.
[47:35.250 --> 47:35.970]  Runners, Runners.
[47:36.510 --> 47:37.330]  Yes, of course.
[47:37.490 --> 47:37.570]  Yep.
[47:38.290 --> 47:46.350]  Mostly used it to, to block my, my colleague's face from having to see him across the cubicle at the software company that I, that I worked at.
[47:46.410 --> 47:51.010]  And we kind of used it as an additional divider so we didn't have to look at each other's faces all day.
[47:51.430 --> 47:57.150]  But then when we had the interns come in, they were sitting in this classroom and then the classroom was this old record player.
[47:57.450 --> 47:59.330]  So we said, oh, let me see if this thing works.
[47:59.490 --> 48:02.290]  And we figured out, oh yeah, the record player works.
[48:02.430 --> 48:03.050]  It's not bad.
[48:03.150 --> 48:03.710]  It's pretty cool.
[48:03.990 --> 48:11.350]  And the Dexie's Midnight Runners, plural, album was in good condition, had Come On Eileen on it, of course, right?
[48:11.530 --> 48:20.430]  So we figured out how to put it on repeat and we made the interns listen to Come On Eileen on repeat for days at a time.
[48:20.610 --> 48:27.130]  Could you imagine how crazy this would make you if you were listening to Come On Eileen all day for the better interns?
[48:27.490 --> 48:36.610]  I just remember a story, and you can look this up, of somebody who played Hocus Pocus by Focus on repeat and his roommate killed him.
[48:37.290 --> 48:38.230]  It really happened.
[48:38.390 --> 48:38.890]  No, that's not.
[48:39.010 --> 48:39.950]  It really happened.
[48:40.890 --> 48:41.810]  That's not the song.
[48:41.950 --> 48:45.370]  You know, playing that once is beyond a lot of people's abilities to cope.
[48:46.130 --> 48:47.530]  Gila, quickly, because we only have a minute.
[48:48.190 --> 48:50.870]  Yes, I did see something that, Emmanuel, you're reminding me of.
[48:50.950 --> 48:52.530]  First of all, I'm glad you didn't call 911 again.
[48:52.650 --> 48:53.190]  That's good.
[48:53.330 --> 49:06.850]  If you're going to hit a button, make it be the audio recorder and not the calling 911 button, but I saw a meme go by a while ago about some guy who had been text-to-speech messaging his wife and then forgot to turn it off while he was practicing trombone.
[49:07.250 --> 49:13.290]  So his phone sent five messages that just said, wop, wop, wop, wop, wop, wop.
[49:13.510 --> 49:13.930]  Wow.
[49:15.010 --> 49:15.810]  That's awesome.
[49:16.170 --> 49:25.770]  Hey, our last light tech device for children from the New York Times, a Swatch Flick Flack watch, analog kids watches.
[49:26.750 --> 49:28.530]  It's a wristwatch, basically.
[49:28.730 --> 49:30.570]  And I guess people don't use those much anymore.
[49:31.110 --> 49:36.450]  Is there any form of technology that we've abandoned that we're not trying to run back to?
[49:36.570 --> 49:39.150]  Because, you know, I think there's a lesson to be learned there somewhere.
[49:39.850 --> 49:40.770]  We're out of time.
[49:41.130 --> 49:44.470]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[49:44.890 --> 49:45.890]  Please write to us.
[49:45.990 --> 49:46.950]  Again, no overtime tonight.
[49:47.230 --> 49:52.070]  We will be back next week with hopefully, hopefully we'll have some spare time.
[49:52.170 --> 49:53.210]  We can we can do this.
[49:53.710 --> 49:54.570]  Thanks for listening.
[49:55.470 --> 49:56.530]  We'll see you next week.
[49:57.090 --> 49:57.290]  Good night.
[50:31.060 --> 50:38.460]  Now, because of my duality raised on pop and bass didn't really bother me because it's all about the taste.
[50:38.700 --> 50:40.260]  I'm the final generation.
[50:40.780 --> 50:42.360]  That's how I got my style.
[50:43.080 --> 50:44.440]  Combining clothes and music.
[50:44.920 --> 50:46.140]  I turned it in a half.
[50:46.580 --> 50:49.880]  Now, because of the economy, you're living with your mom.
[50:50.480 --> 50:53.720]  It's hard to be a rebel, but you get your washing done.
[50:53.960 --> 50:55.720]  And you can skirt around a issue.
[50:55.920 --> 50:57.700]  You can rock around the clock.
[50:57.900 --> 51:01.180]  And no one will ever miss you if you put it on TikTok.
[51:01.840 --> 51:10.240]  So I finally come to realize I might not be so old and wise.
[51:16.660 --> 51:20.520]  When you're out of time, I'm out of sync.
[51:21.200 --> 51:25.320]  Forever might not be as long as you think.
[51:31.970 --> 51:35.930]  But for the innocence of youth, age seemed like a curse.
[51:36.110 --> 51:39.630]  But consider the alternatives, things it could have been much worse.
[51:39.950 --> 51:43.490]  And the journey that I set myself has been a test of faith.
[51:43.650 --> 51:47.170]  Because I've lived all seven stories, so I know there ain't no eighth.
[51:47.610 --> 51:51.150]  And everything I used to fear, I find I now embrace.
[51:51.390 --> 51:54.870]  Because of all the problems, I won't be around to face.
[51:55.470 --> 51:58.730]  Predictions of dystopia, three jobs to pay the rent.
[51:58.850 --> 52:02.370]  The threat of just a few degrees, we're talking two percent.
[52:02.790 --> 52:11.190]  So I finally come to realize I might not be so old and wise.
[52:17.510 --> 52:21.490]  When you're out of time, I'm out of sync.
[52:22.090 --> 52:26.330]  Forever might not be as long as you think.
[52:48.230 --> 52:52.070]  Yes, we're absolutely fabulous, and we won't be told.
[52:52.270 --> 52:55.710]  Because the young ain't what they used to be, but neither are the old.
[52:55.990 --> 52:59.710]  Sure, I might be on a pension, but I'm still well dressed.
[52:59.950 --> 53:03.370]  It's a modern day convention, and I'm not easily impressed.
[53:03.950 --> 53:12.350]  But I finally come to realize I might not be so old and wise.
[53:18.760 --> 53:22.510]  When you're out of time, I'm out of sync.
[53:23.110 --> 53:27.390]  Forever might not be as long as you think.
[53:48.360 --> 53:50.480]  Do you believe you?
[53:50.480 --> 53:50.480]  Yeah!
[53:50.480 --> 53:55.600]  So years, I mi southeast, who I'm out ofệu so now?
[53:55.600 --> 53:57.160]  I don't know who I am so well overloaded.
[54:13.050 --> 54:13.770]  But you also wish I did.
[54:13.770 --> 54:15.690]  And if you're mighty, maybe you, maybe you know it?
[54:15.690 --> 54:19.550]  Cause those old folks ain't what they used to be.
[54:19.730 --> 54:23.410]  Yeah, now we're OAP, yeah, you know me.
[54:23.950 --> 54:25.550]  Stemmaster, cut faster.