[00:25.070 --> 00:29.750]  The time is just about 7pm.
[00:29.750 --> 00:35.650]  You're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM here in New York.
[00:35.810 --> 00:39.790]  And it's time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[00:46.940 --> 00:48.940]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:49.400 --> 00:51.480]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:52.380 --> 00:54.460]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:55.060 --> 00:56.960]  Now I can't make a call.
[00:57.640 --> 00:59.820]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:02.620 --> 01:05.260]  Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[01:05.780 --> 01:07.780]  I hope that's understood.
[01:07.980 --> 01:08.760]  Bum-diddly-bum!
[01:52.940 --> 01:54.720]  A very good evening to you.
[01:55.280 --> 01:57.820]  Program is Off the Hook.
[01:59.140 --> 01:59.660]  Rob T.
[01:59.780 --> 02:00.600]  Firefly here with you.
[02:00.800 --> 02:02.480]  I am joined by Gila.
[02:02.740 --> 02:03.220]  You are.
[02:03.320 --> 02:03.660]  Good evening.
[02:04.420 --> 02:08.580]  And we have some very special guests out in Signal Land tonight.
[02:09.000 --> 02:11.600]  First of all, we got Alex, who's usually here.
[02:12.460 --> 02:13.040]  Yes, yeah.
[02:13.220 --> 02:14.700]  Oh, I'm not one of the special ones, Rob?
[02:14.860 --> 02:15.280]  No, no, no.
[02:15.320 --> 02:16.340]  You're one of the regular ones.
[02:17.040 --> 02:17.980]  I'm more excited.
[02:18.380 --> 02:18.760]  You shut up.
[02:18.800 --> 02:19.840]  I want to talk to these other folks.
[02:19.840 --> 02:24.460]  Well, I was deliberately cast out of a special category when you realized it was still here.
[02:24.580 --> 02:25.400]  I appreciate that.
[02:25.680 --> 02:26.000]  Absolutely.
[02:26.360 --> 02:27.540]  You got to make you guys feel loved.
[02:27.740 --> 02:28.240]  I get it.
[02:28.780 --> 02:30.000]  This is how we do it.
[02:30.040 --> 02:30.860]  On to the special people.
[02:31.040 --> 02:31.560]  You got it.
[02:31.720 --> 02:31.820]  Yep.
[02:32.600 --> 02:36.880]  Also out there in Signal Land, we have got Efret Sternberg.
[02:40.820 --> 02:41.640]  Have we got you?
[02:44.440 --> 02:46.560]  We have got you on mute, Efret Sternberg.
[02:48.270 --> 02:49.340]  Now I'm here.
[02:49.520 --> 02:50.100]  Now you're here.
[02:50.460 --> 02:51.220]  Welcome to here.
[02:53.140 --> 02:55.060]  We have got Lambda Calculus.
[02:57.240 --> 02:58.520]  Ahoy, my chooms.
[02:59.220 --> 03:01.200]  And we have Kusanagi with us.
[03:02.180 --> 03:03.040]  Hello, hello.
[03:03.900 --> 03:04.900]  Hello, everyone.
[03:05.140 --> 03:13.000]  And the reason I brought you all here today is because we've got a bit of a special event that I think folks might want to talk about coming up.
[03:13.000 --> 03:19.020]  And you folks are all involved with this in various ways and at various angles.
[03:20.640 --> 03:22.420]  And we're excited about this.
[03:23.120 --> 03:24.440]  Gil and I are also involved.
[03:24.620 --> 03:24.940]  Yes.
[03:25.180 --> 03:26.840]  And we have some special stuff going on.
[03:28.180 --> 03:30.560]  First of all, what's happening this weekend?
[03:32.800 --> 03:34.620]  Um, the heat's supposed to break?
[03:34.820 --> 03:36.880]  The heat is supposed to break this weekend.
[03:37.200 --> 03:38.120]  Um, what else?
[03:39.840 --> 03:41.420]  What else is happening this weekend?
[03:42.140 --> 03:42.620]  Hmm.
[03:44.100 --> 03:44.380]  Hmm.
[03:44.500 --> 03:45.480]  Why is everyone else muted?
[03:48.570 --> 03:52.290]  Well, I believe that we might have a seance to summon Nikola Tesla.
[03:53.250 --> 03:54.010]  Nikola Tesla.
[03:54.250 --> 03:54.410]  Yes.
[03:54.550 --> 03:57.610]  He lived at the New Yorker Hotel in Midtown Manhattan.
[03:58.290 --> 04:05.410]  And, uh, that is also, um, coincidentally the site of the Hackers on Planet Earth conference this very weekend.
[04:05.950 --> 04:13.610]  Um, the one that, uh, if you don't have your ticket already, you're kind of out of luck because, uh, they, they have, they're out, they're sold out.
[04:13.610 --> 04:14.410]  That means there's no more.
[04:15.150 --> 04:19.350]  And the, uh, virtual tickets as well, I believe, were ended today.
[04:19.710 --> 04:26.230]  And, you know, so, so, uh, so those of us who are, who are committed to it, uh, are, you know, fully committed.
[04:26.590 --> 04:34.390]  Um, and we'll, we'll get to talk about that in, um, a little bit, but I wanted to start with a couple of things that are going on in the news.
[04:34.650 --> 04:43.470]  Um, first of all, I, I would really like to, uh, give an extra special welcome out there to everyone listening to us on Delta Airlines Wi-Fi.
[04:44.270 --> 04:49.710]  Um, because that is, uh, as I hear, just, you know, a wonderful place where nothing, uh, ever happens.
[04:50.150 --> 05:04.870]  Um, except when a Delta flight was, uh, quote, and this is, um, on an, this is on an air travel, uh, sort of blog called, uh, View from the Wing, um, where they, they were at a Delta flight hit by hackers after DEF CON Las Vegas.
[05:05.150 --> 05:07.370]  Uh, crew says they jammed the in-flight Wi-Fi.
[05:08.370 --> 05:20.370]  And, uh, what appears to have happened is a bunch of people coming home from that other hacker conference, um, which happened this past weekend, um, decided to have some fun on the airplane with the, uh, with the Wi-Fi.
[05:20.370 --> 05:25.390]  They, uh, they sent out a de-off attack, which, uh, basically knocked everyone off the real Wi-Fi.
[05:25.530 --> 05:32.130]  Then they put up another, um, uh, hotspot that was named Delta to get them to connect to that one instead.
[05:32.130 --> 05:43.230]  And, uh, uh, it's unclear what they were planning on doing with this or why they did this, um, if it was for the lulz or they were, uh, doing something, um, more evil than that.
[05:43.690 --> 05:55.050]  But, um, of course, now that they've done that, that's, that's the word on everyone's lips in the news, in everywhere, uh, Fox News has, uh, has an interesting article about it, as you might imagine.
[05:55.050 --> 06:05.250]  Um, but, uh, you know, there, there's been a lot of discourse about this in, um, the sort of hacker, uh, sphere online, um, with some folks saying, oh, it was just an armless prank.
[06:05.370 --> 06:10.690]  Some folks saying, what kind of idiots would do this on a plane and, uh, shake up, uh, an airline crew?
[06:10.950 --> 06:12.630]  Um, what do you folks out there think?
[06:13.210 --> 06:23.050]  Well, hang on, because I fly Delta more often than not because Delta flies direct to a city where we have family.
[06:23.050 --> 06:23.510]  Mm-hmm.
[06:23.650 --> 06:25.930]  So, we fly Delta, not infrequently.
[06:26.310 --> 06:26.530]  Mm-hmm.
[06:26.610 --> 06:27.110]  Which is fine.
[06:27.270 --> 06:32.370]  And we're used to the spiel where they're like, Delta is on a journey to bring fast and free Wi-Fi to our entire fleet.
[06:32.510 --> 06:40.230]  But unfortunately, the junky regional jet you're on right now isn't part of that plan yet, so it sucks to be you.
[06:40.450 --> 06:41.690]  Please pay us for Wi-Fi.
[06:41.970 --> 06:42.170]  Mm-hmm.
[06:42.990 --> 06:49.990]  And people who don't hear that spiel are probably, you know, used to just hopping on the Wi-Fi.
[06:49.990 --> 06:57.070]  And I did read somewhere where someone pointed out that this isn't just so people can work on graphs and check Facebook.
[06:57.370 --> 06:57.610]  Mm-hmm.
[06:57.730 --> 07:02.110]  But, you know, they alter the flight plan on the Wi-Fi.
[07:03.630 --> 07:17.670]  And you and I were having a discussion about this because maybe it's naivete on my part, but I don't understand the appeal of doing this sort of thing.
[07:17.830 --> 07:20.170]  I don't understand why you'd want to do that.
[07:20.170 --> 07:34.490]  And maybe that means that I don't belong on this particular program, but I fail to understand why you would want to do this to people.
[07:35.050 --> 07:41.170]  Why, you know, your scientists were so concerned about whether they could, they didn't stop to think whether they should.
[07:41.470 --> 07:43.890]  Just because you can doesn't mean you have to.
[07:45.330 --> 07:49.310]  So, I'm never going to try to mess with the in-flight Wi-Fi.
[07:51.430 --> 07:52.070]  All right.
[07:53.050 --> 07:54.630]  Anyone else have thoughts on this?
[07:55.250 --> 08:00.150]  I mean, I heard that this was the new origin story for Zero Cool, for the hackers reboot.
[08:01.270 --> 08:01.750]  Absolutely.
[08:02.110 --> 08:04.010]  I mean, Monday was Zero Cool Day.
[08:04.690 --> 08:05.150]  It was.
[08:05.410 --> 08:06.370]  It just so happens.
[08:07.130 --> 08:15.630]  You know, Zero Cool Day, of course, observing the solemn occasion where young Zero Cool crashed 1,507 systems in one day.
[08:15.750 --> 08:16.590]  Biggest crash in history.
[08:17.030 --> 08:18.850]  Front page of New York Times, August 10th, 1988.
[08:22.970 --> 08:24.230]  That's from a movie.
[08:24.550 --> 08:25.510]  A movie from Hollywood.
[08:25.510 --> 08:32.970]  That would sound like a really cool reboot, but I also think that it's like, I don't fly Delta very often.
[08:32.970 --> 08:37.190]  I usually fly United because they're a little bit cheaper and they tend to have direct flights to Vegas.
[08:37.190 --> 08:49.150]  But, I mean, usually, like, things like that make me feel like whoever did this was also probably, like, baby's first DEF CON, probably very fresh-faced kids.
[08:49.150 --> 08:51.890]  They probably thought that they were going to be really cool and cocky.
[08:52.050 --> 08:56.050]  Let's do this big, cool hack source because, you know, lead cred status.
[08:56.290 --> 09:11.950]  And they don't realize, kid, you don't want to really aim that high or even that high at all because you're going to get yourself into a lot of trouble with a lot of guys in black suits that are especially going to be waiting right there at the plane when it lands and they're going to say,
[09:12.310 --> 09:13.530]  all right, come with us, kids.
[09:14.350 --> 09:20.030]  And you're going to be seeing the back rooms of those airports and you're going to be like, yeah, nobody gets to see these, now do they?
[09:20.690 --> 09:26.550]  Yeah, I don't think it's your standard sort of, let's, you know, be afraid of making the feds angry.
[09:26.770 --> 09:28.490]  It's an airline.
[09:28.690 --> 09:29.390]  It's an aircraft.
[09:29.390 --> 09:39.210]  There have been some folks online speculating that this could actually affect the safety of the flight itself, which is definitely not something you want to do when you're up in an airplane.
[09:41.110 --> 09:43.350]  And yeah, so Alex, what do you think?
[09:44.450 --> 10:00.690]  Well, I can understand the allure of running a de-auth attack on a plane Wi-Fi network on the way home from a hacker conference after not sleeping and being out and learning about all kinds of interesting things in, in Vegas on the way home to, to wherever,
[10:00.690 --> 10:07.810]  but also you have to remember these de-auth attacks are so incredibly easy to run.
[10:08.450 --> 10:13.310]  My guess is that this person probably ran it from a flipper zero, right?
[10:13.330 --> 10:19.430]  You can, you basically can install firmware that has de-auth attacks programmed right into it.
[10:19.570 --> 10:26.310]  You select the network, you execute the de-auth attack, and then everything on that network de-authenticates.
[10:26.670 --> 10:30.370]  I don't think it actually affects everything on the network, though.
[10:30.490 --> 10:39.910]  I think it's, I don't think it affects devices that are connected to 5G, but I don't know if somebody will correct me or something, I'm sure if I'm wrong on that.
[10:40.310 --> 10:53.190]  But anyway, incredibly easy to run, and then you create your own fake hotspot, and maybe they were going to do this as a joke, or maybe they were really going to try to man in the middle people, but it just seemed to me like it's obvious on the way back from a hacker conference,
[10:53.350 --> 11:00.210]  the intention behind this was some kind of tomfoolery, as opposed to actual malice.
[11:00.870 --> 11:06.110]  So I hope that they're treated with that type of intention in mind.
[11:06.390 --> 11:10.910]  I hope so as well, because it does just sound like a bunch of kids being silly on the plane.
[11:11.890 --> 11:19.030]  It remains to be seen, and I'm sure any other evidence to the contrary will be put out there as we keep an eye on this story.
[11:20.370 --> 11:25.090]  Let's talk a little bit about hackers and, you know, learning things and making a nuisance of yourself.
[11:26.290 --> 11:38.770]  Lambda, first of all, I wanted to ask you about the talk you're giving, which we cannot say the entire title of on the radio, because it contains one of those words that could mean big trouble for us here in the broadcast industry.
[11:38.770 --> 11:42.130]  But we can call it how we can all rewild the internet.
[11:42.870 --> 11:49.410]  And can you tell us in family friendly terms, the basic main idea of what you're going to be talking about?
[11:50.570 --> 11:52.130]  Yes, I can absolutely do that.
[11:52.290 --> 11:53.530]  And I will do a family friendly.
[11:54.790 --> 12:01.610]  So I did give a version of this talk at DEF CON to warm up the audience and also for the people who can't really make it to hope.
[12:01.990 --> 12:07.190]  So I gave it at the hacker's town community village at DEF CON.
[12:07.710 --> 12:09.490]  It seemed to go over very, very well.
[12:09.590 --> 12:10.810]  Everybody seemed to love the energy.
[12:12.050 --> 12:16.530]  The talk is basically going to be talking about how the internet came to be.
[12:16.650 --> 12:29.190]  So it's going to be a little part historic talk, like the building of the internet, some of the early services we used to use, and some of the fun times we used to have on the internet as kids, because I'm pretty sure that we had all the fun things like web rings and portals,
[12:29.230 --> 12:30.810]  and you make your own little fan sites.
[12:31.010 --> 12:46.890]  You had the early social media where it was just like guys with a ton of money who came by and said, no, we are going to, we're going to turn everything into paid services and subscriptions and AI models and algorithms.
[12:46.890 --> 13:01.610]  And we're going to just make people angry and depressed and upset and just pump you full of constantly bad news, bad news, bad news, propaganda, bad news, and then some, and just make each other go at each other's throats, which is not what we really want to have.
[13:01.610 --> 13:08.650]  It affects children, it affects adults, it's just generally a terrible mess, and I don't really like to see it.
[13:09.070 --> 13:24.190]  And we should, as hackers, start considering that for the next generation of hackers, whether our kids, other people's kids, family members, whoever, that they don't get left behind with an internet full of garbage.
[13:24.710 --> 13:32.830]  That they have a fun internet, they have a good internet, no spying, no surveillance, no AI, no tech bros, none of that stuff.
[13:33.190 --> 13:48.230]  So, I'm going to be giving a few brief pointers about tools that you can use to get away from big tech, get away from that AI, get away from big social media, and start cultivating the web again to a way where it was like when we were, when we were teenagers,
[13:48.650 --> 13:50.790]  when it was fun and it was nice to use.
[13:51.510 --> 14:02.910]  So, tools that could be like, not Google, but maybe like another web service, instead of using Chrome, another web browser, instead of Facebook or Instagram, use the Fediverse.
[14:03.750 --> 14:05.390]  Those will be things I'll be covering.
[14:05.790 --> 14:17.010]  And of course, we can't go without talking about Valid at this talk, because Valid I feel will be an extremely integral part of rebuilding the web.
[14:17.690 --> 14:18.250]  Absolutely.
[14:18.450 --> 14:25.130]  Valid is something that we some time ago had some of the crew from there talking on this program about.
[14:25.470 --> 14:32.690]  For those unfamiliar, could you give us the short version of what Valid is and does and can do?
[14:33.450 --> 14:33.830]  Okay.
[14:34.090 --> 14:42.330]  So, I guess to put it as succinct as possible, Valid is a node-based network that was designed by the Cult of the Dead Cow.
[14:42.830 --> 14:45.810]  And I'm sure all of us in Hackerland all know who they are.
[14:46.910 --> 14:56.770]  So, Cult of the Dead Cow, alongside a few others of us at Hackerstown, we are creating this node-based network where you build a node, you build a network.
[14:56.890 --> 15:03.590]  It is people-powered, it is by the people and for the people, and it is fully private, it is fully end-to-end encrypted.
[15:03.950 --> 15:06.570]  It can be used for a multitude of purposes.
[15:07.050 --> 15:11.230]  I mean, it's written in CNRust, so nice and high-level, modern protocols.
[15:11.990 --> 15:17.170]  There are tools like file sharing, MUD, what else?
[15:17.570 --> 15:18.770]  End-to-end encrypted chats.
[15:19.150 --> 15:21.290]  There's tons of tools that are in the works.
[15:21.390 --> 15:23.250]  It's really getting somewhere.
[15:23.350 --> 15:28.550]  And I feel that at DEF CON as well, Valid made a massive impact.
[15:28.750 --> 15:31.290]  It's not so much a little splash, but a sploosh.
[15:32.290 --> 15:47.510]  And we really got the attention of a lot of visitors to Hackerstown community, both with our badges, which were small embedded machines that are fully working Valid nodes, to just telling people about how to build nodes and how to build their own network,
[15:47.970 --> 15:54.990]  and how to write tools for it, and how to just really make this community come together and really mesh.
[15:56.730 --> 15:58.110]  It's amazing stuff.
[15:58.110 --> 16:00.490]  And the potential for it to keep growing is amazing.
[16:00.590 --> 16:05.730]  Just watching it grow over the past... I forget how many years it's been since it was unveiled.
[16:06.710 --> 16:07.810]  Oh, it's been three years.
[16:08.050 --> 16:08.470]  Three years.
[16:08.750 --> 16:09.290]  Wow.
[16:09.570 --> 16:14.670]  And, yeah, I think we're all excited to see what comes out of that in the future.
[16:15.010 --> 16:23.410]  And so what led you to settle on this as a subject to speak about at Hope?
[16:24.530 --> 16:29.270]  I mean, like anything else, I'm just angry about the state of the Internet right now.
[16:29.450 --> 16:38.810]  I'm just very angry about the state of billionaires controlling what is our network and our web and just ripping it away from us and just destroying it.
[16:39.770 --> 16:42.530]  Like, I'm not a father and I don't have kids.
[16:42.730 --> 16:45.270]  But it's like, if I did, I don't want to leave this Internet for them.
[16:45.450 --> 16:46.990]  I want them to have a good Internet.
[16:47.210 --> 16:48.450]  I want them to have good tech.
[16:48.450 --> 16:59.570]  I want for the people out there who are growing up in this world now to see what the Internet was like when we were there in the beginning and really get to experience that.
[16:59.870 --> 17:03.850]  I don't want them to be left with, you know, whatever these guys are saying.
[17:05.210 --> 17:16.630]  You know, it's funny because this also kind of meshes with something else I've seen going on where there is increasing interest in retro technology, in doing things the older way.
[17:16.630 --> 17:22.910]  People are, you know, being interested in like a flip phone that's not, you know, a full, you know, touch screen computer again.
[17:23.390 --> 17:27.870]  People are interested in older computers, older machineries, seeing how things used to work.
[17:27.930 --> 17:43.510]  And I think part of that has to do with the utter bubble and mess of things like computer component prices for those who were interested in building the hottest, latest stuff, you know, prices, shortages, everything else.
[17:44.410 --> 18:00.610]  But also in just a way that recognizes that a lot of what we're seeing now is a lot of noise, a lot of noise, and not a lot of the content or community that some of us have taken a great deal away from as we've used the net in our, you know, in our lives.
[18:00.610 --> 18:01.510]  Yeah.
[18:01.770 --> 18:17.070]  I mean, I can't begin to tell you how salty I am about the fact that I can't even buy a solid state drive for one of my laptops to upgrade it because what was $109 just a year ago has now practically quadrupled in price.
[18:17.070 --> 18:17.710]  Mm-hmm.
[18:18.590 --> 18:18.910]  Yeah.
[18:19.350 --> 18:27.030]  The price of RAM has been steadily coming down over the past 20 years, but the past one year or so has undone that.
[18:27.350 --> 18:36.430]  I've seen multiple articles about this floating around where we have just given up all the ground we've gained in terms of memory prices and storage prices and things like that.
[18:36.610 --> 18:39.250]  So we'll keep an eye on where this all goes.
[18:39.470 --> 18:41.190]  I'm definitely excited about your talk.
[18:41.190 --> 18:44.430]  Um, I want to move on to, um, Effie.
[18:44.770 --> 18:58.330]  Effie, uh, you have what I, what I think is a very interesting talk, a very, uh, sort of unusual talk for the space, but, um, it's, uh, it really bears going into, uh, could you tell us a little bit about, um, what your background is and, uh, what you're speaking about?
[18:59.690 --> 19:00.050]  Sure.
[19:00.270 --> 19:02.370]  So I'm Effie or Bellis.
[19:02.570 --> 19:05.510]  Uh, I share a last name with another regular on your show.
[19:05.510 --> 19:13.030]  Um, and, uh, he's my husband and, um, and I am going to be talking about, um, well, first of all, my background.
[19:13.630 --> 19:15.250]  Um, I'm a former prosecutor.
[19:15.250 --> 19:18.670]  I was a prosecutor for over a decade and I worked with special victims.
[19:18.670 --> 19:22.670]  So I worked with, uh, domestic violence and I also work with child abuse and sex crimes.
[19:23.470 --> 19:32.330]  And, um, I really started working with, you know, victims of domestic violence or survivors, as we call them, um, at the age of 15.
[19:32.330 --> 19:35.030]  So I've been working with survivors since then.
[19:35.230 --> 19:38.210]  So, uh, basically over two decades, but I don't want to age myself.
[19:38.430 --> 20:01.250]  Um, and, um, well, what's, what's so, um, um, you know, not amazing, but incredible about the shift in the dynamics of, of survivors and these relationships is that when I started practicing law and when I started working with survivors, it was a statistic of one in four women and about one in 10 men would be,
[20:01.250 --> 20:05.350]  uh, would be victims of, of intimate partner violence or sexual abuse.
[20:05.990 --> 20:09.550]  That statistic has gone up to one to two and one to six respectively.
[20:09.970 --> 20:13.910]  And that changes a lot when you get into LGBTQIA plus community.
[20:14.510 --> 20:18.050]  And also I'm not taking into account like certain ethnic enclaves.
[20:18.590 --> 20:36.070]  And I think that what happens is with the, you know, um, with the increased usage of technology, um, what, you know, it is much easier to accomplish these things and to become stuck in these cycles of violence and also harder to get away and harder to get out.
[20:36.070 --> 20:44.510]  So, you know, a crime that really has not gotten a lot of attention, but is, you know, growing with all this technology is stalking.
[20:44.610 --> 20:46.050]  It's something that's really not talked about.
[20:46.250 --> 20:51.570]  Um, and it's something that's become more and more dangerous, um, for, for people in these types of relationships.
[20:52.030 --> 21:09.710]  Um, and so I thought it would be interesting to give, um, to, to, to moderate, I should say, my role in this, in this talk is going to be that of a moderator, um, uh, to moderate a discussion with, um, an old colleague, two old colleagues, one from the Brooklyn DA's office,
[21:09.730 --> 21:17.470]  where I started my career, who now is the bureau chief of the, um, the technology and litigation bureau at the, at the Brooklyn DA's office.
[21:17.750 --> 21:26.750]  And another colleague of mine from the Bronx DA's office, um, who works in a CSAM child, uh, sexual abuse material and human trafficking.
[21:27.530 --> 21:39.410]  And kind of talk a lot about, you know, um, um, our experiences with prosecuting technology, how technology plays a role in our prosecutions and how it plays a role in the dynamics of these relationships.
[21:40.310 --> 21:45.730]  Um, and recently I became a member of the board of directors for the New York state coalition against domestic violence.
[21:45.730 --> 21:53.370]  And so, you know, my, my role there is going to be, again, focusing on technology, focusing on the ever changing dynamics of these relationships.
[21:54.050 --> 22:00.150]  And, um, and, you know, overseeing a lot of the domestic violence organizations or all of them in New York state.
[22:00.590 --> 22:02.210]  Uh, so that's what my talk is going to be.
[22:02.310 --> 22:11.370]  It's going to be a lot of war stories and a lot of discussion about technology, um, within, you know, a question and answer, uh, segment, which I think will be really great.
[22:11.370 --> 22:17.510]  And to kind of wrap it up, how people in this community can help, you know, help and how, and how they are helping.
[22:18.730 --> 22:19.690]  Go ahead, Alex.
[22:20.650 --> 22:23.750]  What I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna poke holes in it.
[22:24.130 --> 22:29.750]  We're not, you know, this isn't an argument here, you know, um, your name does begin with E though.
[22:29.930 --> 22:33.070]  So it is, it is difficult not to want to just argue with you immediately.
[22:33.490 --> 22:40.050]  So, um, in any event, uh, you, you mentioned stalking though, my lovely wife.
[22:40.050 --> 22:44.610]  What about things like, uh, unlawful surveillance and, and things like that?
[22:45.030 --> 22:50.510]  I mean, I remember when we first met, you were working on some crazy unlawful surveillance cases.
[22:50.810 --> 22:52.650]  I mean, what, what about that now?
[22:53.690 --> 23:02.370]  Yeah, I mean, you're going to hear when you, when you, when you talk to, uh, the, the two women I'm going to be presenting with, um, Sarah and Sarah, one with age, one without.
[23:02.370 --> 23:09.790]  Um, uh, you're going to learn a lot and hear a lot of stories about people who, uh, we, we talk a lot about these tiles.
[23:09.990 --> 23:22.070]  We talk a lot about these Apple, um, uh, Apple tags, air tags and, and how, and how you can control them from afar and how you can change the labels of them.
[23:22.070 --> 23:31.350]  Um, so, um, I, you know, without giving too much away, there was a case that came up, uh, recently in Brooklyn about somebody who had a tile and somebody and hit it on somebody.
[23:31.470 --> 23:33.290]  And it came up as AirPods.
[23:33.630 --> 23:43.350]  So she constantly thought she was just connecting to AirPods, but really she was just reconnecting to this, um, tag that was, you know, following every movement.
[23:43.350 --> 23:50.590]  And every time she was in the DA's office for, you know, trial practice, she started getting phone calls from this person.
[23:50.770 --> 23:55.090]  And so, you know, when I started as a prosecutor in Brooklyn, when I met Alex, that's correct.
[23:55.210 --> 24:08.470]  I was working on a, on a felony, um, which included on law surveillance where, or, or, or, um, you know, as we refer to him as a defendant, put hidden cameras all over somebody's apartment and was just.
[24:09.850 --> 24:13.010]  surveying her constantly, every single movement she made.
[24:13.510 --> 24:17.010]  And, you know, back then it wasn't stalking, it was unlawful surveillance.
[24:17.010 --> 24:23.710]  But I think now there's an argument to be made that a lot of these unlawful surveillances need to be put under the umbrella of stalking.
[24:23.830 --> 24:26.790]  Because I think, you know, it's, it's interchangeable at this point.
[24:27.850 --> 24:37.430]  And it seems, uh, it seems relevant to the hacker community, not only because those of us who, um, aren't doing terrible things need to know how terrible things are done in order to defend against them.
[24:37.430 --> 24:42.970]  Um, in our own lives and, uh, in, in the lives of those, uh, who's, who are in our lives.
[24:43.630 --> 24:49.150]  But, um, this is also something that, uh, maybe does not get enough talking about out in the open sphere like this.
[24:49.310 --> 24:53.070]  And, uh, I think it's, it's very important to bring that, uh, to, to events like hope.
[24:53.930 --> 24:54.710]  Yeah, I think so.
[24:54.810 --> 25:04.650]  And I, you know, and, and, you know, additionally, I had a thought and I think I, I possibly, um, just lost it, but I think it had something to do with what you said.
[25:04.650 --> 25:09.110]  So I will, um, um, this is what happens as I get older and I forget things.
[25:09.590 --> 25:11.090]  Um, but I did have a question.
[25:12.390 --> 25:29.810]  But no, to echo that, I was talking to my office mate this morning and I was talking about tonight and who we had on the panel with us and the talks that people were going to be giving and telling her about this particular talk, what's coming up, what it all implies.
[25:29.810 --> 25:32.870]  And she said, I hadn't thought about any of this.
[25:33.390 --> 25:37.950]  This talk is so incredibly important.
[25:37.950 --> 25:50.030]  And while it may not necessarily seem like the first top of mind thing you'd see at a hacker conference, I'm really glad is not the word because I wish we didn't have to have these conversations.
[25:50.250 --> 25:58.630]  But the fact that this is coming to this community, I think is really important and really significant.
[25:59.510 --> 26:02.390]  And thank you for bringing this Effie.
[26:02.710 --> 26:03.050]  Thank you.
[26:03.290 --> 26:09.050]  And also like, you know, a lot of people who are, I think this is what I was meant to say before in this bolt bureau, um, in Brooklyn.
[26:09.170 --> 26:22.050]  And I think there's comparable ones in DA's offices of, you know, not only in New York, but across the country that a lot of hackers are involved in these because you need people who have this hands-on experience and know what to look for and how to look for it and,
[26:22.190 --> 26:27.070]  and how to, um, get rid of it, you know, and how to warn against it.
[26:27.070 --> 26:31.610]  So I think it could be, um, great opportunities to, to contribute.
[26:32.330 --> 26:36.030]  Uh, Effie, uh, have you, have you attended Hope before or will this be your first?
[26:36.670 --> 26:37.730]  Of course I have.
[26:38.710 --> 26:41.470]  Um, I've attended Hope with our children.
[26:41.470 --> 26:42.710]  I've attended Hope pregnant.
[26:43.010 --> 26:47.610]  Um, and with, uh, our, our, our young one when he was a baby, I've, I've gone to almost every Hope.
[26:47.770 --> 26:48.650]  I've really enjoyed it.
[26:49.130 --> 26:56.910]  Um, I have not learned how to, how to, um, you know, the lock picking, but our oldest, uh, definitely has and has his own kit.
[26:56.910 --> 26:58.170]  I absolutely love Hope.
[26:59.050 --> 27:00.450]  I'm, I'm still no good at the lock picking.
[27:00.610 --> 27:03.610]  I've tried it at every con over decades and decades.
[27:03.610 --> 27:08.950]  And that's one skill that I'm completely failing at picking up still in any usable way, but I've got a cool set of picks.
[27:09.350 --> 27:09.490]  Yeah.
[27:09.830 --> 27:10.510]  Don't feel bad.
[27:10.730 --> 27:13.550]  I, I kind of like very hit or miss with block picking as well.
[27:13.610 --> 27:14.570]  It's like, sometimes I get it.
[27:14.670 --> 27:15.470]  Sometimes I don't.
[27:15.590 --> 27:17.470]  It's like, it's real luck of the draw with me.
[27:18.970 --> 27:19.510]  It is.
[27:19.570 --> 27:20.630]  It is a popular hobby though.
[27:20.810 --> 27:29.470]  And in our scene, um, Kusanagi, you, you are here and you have also been just, um, uh, butt kicking Hope mainstay for many, many years.
[27:29.790 --> 27:34.030]  Um, you can be seen a lot at the info desk and helping to wrangle things.
[27:34.410 --> 27:40.250]  And, uh, there's another event that, uh, that you're involved with that, um, Gil and I will be, uh, wrangling.
[27:40.570 --> 27:46.770]  And, uh, but can you talk a little bit about, uh, your, your involvement at Hope and just the sorts of things that we can see you doing this time around?
[27:47.310 --> 27:47.710]  Sure.
[27:47.950 --> 27:49.950]  Um, I'm still going to be changed to the info desk.
[27:49.950 --> 27:54.730]  Um, unfortunately, my contract doesn't allow me to go much further than that.
[27:55.010 --> 27:59.430]  Um, but the past several years, I've been, uh, helping to organize the conference.
[27:59.910 --> 28:02.970]  Um, I'm also now the main volunteer coordinator.
[28:03.230 --> 28:07.490]  So if you're volunteering for the conference, I have been the person you've been talking to.
[28:07.630 --> 28:08.970]  This is the first time you're hearing my voice.
[28:08.970 --> 28:11.230]  I'm a lot squeakier in person, I promise.
[28:11.850 --> 28:26.810]  Um, so, um, just as a quick shout out, if you are still interested in volunteering, uh, you can go to HTTPS, uh, uh, volunteers with an S dot hope dot net and sign up for an account and sign up for your ships.
[28:27.170 --> 28:28.670]  Um, it's pretty easy.
[28:28.670 --> 28:32.010]  If you have any issues, you can email me up until tomorrow.
[28:32.250 --> 28:37.590]  But after that, it's going to get a little hectic, uh, because I am juggling a lot of stuff.
[28:37.590 --> 28:39.690]  Um, I work at the info desk.
[28:39.910 --> 28:43.650]  So what I do is I answer everybody's questions.
[28:43.830 --> 28:45.250]  I manage to know things.
[28:45.850 --> 28:50.730]  Um, our slogan at the info desk is if anyone knows stuff about stuff, it's info desk.
[28:51.130 --> 28:57.150]  Um, and not only do I handle questions in person, I handle email questions, um, and matrix.
[28:57.250 --> 29:02.110]  And if people have me in a group chat and they ping me, I get them there too.
[29:02.510 --> 29:09.230]  Um, so I'm in all the places, all the times, uh, managing the different, uh, volunteer roles for the conference.
[29:10.430 --> 29:14.230]  Um, yeah, that's pretty much what I do right now.
[29:14.810 --> 29:22.650]  Um, and I work alongside the operations, uh, the security team to help make sure that they're stationed.
[29:23.010 --> 29:31.590]  Um, yeah, that's, that's, it doesn't sound like a lot, but it does at the same time when I say it out loud, or it doesn't feel like a lot.
[29:31.590 --> 29:34.610]  But when I say it out loud, it's like, Oh geez, that's why I have so many gray hairs.
[29:35.190 --> 29:36.790]  Um, yeah.
[29:36.910 --> 29:38.470]  And when, when did you start doing this stuff?
[29:38.630 --> 29:40.150]  It, it, it feels like it's been forever.
[29:40.450 --> 29:42.750]  I'm sure it feels like forever to you, but yeah.
[29:43.010 --> 29:46.930]  Um, it's actually my 10th year, uh, being a volunteer and hope attendee.
[29:47.310 --> 29:54.610]  Um, I've volunteered every hope I've attended and I became a lead for it's actually on my resume.
[29:54.970 --> 30:04.130]  I became lead for info desk in 22 and then started managing the volunteer stuff really, um, in 24.
[30:04.890 --> 30:07.670]  So this is my third year, uh, volunteer coordinator.
[30:08.930 --> 30:09.410]  Excellent.
[30:09.630 --> 30:12.810]  And, uh, so what, what are you, what are your feelings about the new space?
[30:12.890 --> 30:14.210]  Have you been in to see the space or?
[30:14.450 --> 30:15.170]  Yes, I have.
[30:15.310 --> 30:16.890]  It, it is so pretty.
[30:17.430 --> 30:18.630]  It's so nice.
[30:18.890 --> 30:23.070]  Uh, we got to, um, me and the team got to do a walk around.
[30:23.070 --> 30:30.390]  I believe it was in May and we got to see, uh, the grand ballroom, which is where hackers got talent is going to be hosted this year.
[30:30.850 --> 30:34.090]  Um, the crystal ballroom, which is also very lovely.
[30:34.410 --> 30:37.710]  Um, the workshop rooms, uh, which are also nice.
[30:37.850 --> 30:38.670]  They're just a little smaller.
[30:39.190 --> 30:42.290]  Um, but overall, I think it's a great space.
[30:42.290 --> 30:48.310]  It's nothing like, it's not as big as pen, but there's like kind of like a mystique and an aura to it.
[30:48.370 --> 30:52.850]  You know, it's very like hand wavy, but I got good vibes.
[30:52.850 --> 30:59.370]  When I was in there and I was like, all right, yeah, I could, I could see things going really, really well here and I'm excited for it.
[30:59.930 --> 31:00.330]  That looks good.
[31:01.090 --> 31:07.530]  You know, when, when we were there, uh, and I got to, to wander around for a bit to see the grand ballroom.
[31:07.530 --> 31:10.590]  Um, I can't remember, I think it's the grand ballroom, right?
[31:10.810 --> 31:20.270]  It's there's, there's, there's room that has this, this very kind of ornate, massive sculpture on that, that kind of takes up one of the walls.
[31:20.410 --> 31:21.530]  It's, it's sculpt.
[31:21.650 --> 31:31.430]  It's kind of part sculpture, part mosaic painting, very interesting and kind of new wavy type of looking, but odd.
[31:31.610 --> 31:31.730]  Right.
[31:32.110 --> 31:44.550]  And there's a history to that, that is really kind of fascinating over and above what went on there historically at the New Yorker hotel, obviously with Nikola Tesla having lived and died there.
[31:44.730 --> 31:47.010]  There's some other really interesting history there.
[31:47.010 --> 31:55.090]  And I'm hoping that some of our listeners or attendees will look up the origin of that particular sculpture painting type thing.
[31:55.250 --> 31:55.950]  It's kind of fascinating.
[31:55.950 --> 32:04.230]  I don't want to give it away, but there's some kind of weird, spooky type, uh, curious history of that hotel.
[32:05.010 --> 32:05.210]  Yeah.
[32:06.190 --> 32:07.170]  There, there absolutely is.
[32:07.250 --> 32:08.670]  That's probably why I like it so much.
[32:08.790 --> 32:11.970]  Cause I like the spooky kind of things, but I mean, it's on brand.
[32:12.070 --> 32:13.030]  That's gonna be very fun.
[32:13.870 --> 32:14.110]  Yeah.
[32:14.770 --> 32:15.210]  Yeah.
[32:15.210 --> 32:28.610]  It's, it's something also, I think, uh, those of us who enjoyed Hotel Pennsylvania liked the, uh, you know, sort of ratty, spooky aspects of it, but, uh, you know, that place is no more, but this is right around the corner and it, uh, it promises to be a lot of fun.
[32:29.190 --> 32:29.370]  Yeah.
[32:29.690 --> 32:36.510]  I'm less concerned about washing the New Yorker off me than I was about washing the hotel painting off me.
[32:36.610 --> 32:37.330]  Oh yeah.
[32:37.950 --> 32:39.390]  Cause it's like Hotel Pennsylvania.
[32:39.690 --> 32:43.690]  I still remember, like, you don't know what those marks and stains are on the walls and the rug.
[32:43.690 --> 32:47.650]  You're like, uh, yeah, I'm going to have to go home and really do my laundry.
[32:48.490 --> 32:50.430]  You walk around with one of those UV lights.
[32:50.590 --> 32:51.350]  Why is this blue?
[32:51.870 --> 32:52.790]  What does blue mean?
[32:53.670 --> 32:53.990]  Yep.
[32:54.590 --> 32:54.750]  Yeah.
[32:54.990 --> 32:55.370]  Trust me.
[32:55.490 --> 32:58.290]  And I carry one of those UV lights to every hotel I ever go to.
[32:59.730 --> 33:01.070]  Well, we expect a full report.
[33:01.210 --> 33:09.090]  Uh, when, when you get to this one, but now Hotel Penn was, was in retrospect, we can say kind of a dump, but it was our dump and it was historically significant dump.
[33:09.190 --> 33:10.270]  And I still, I still miss it.
[33:10.270 --> 33:11.690]  I do too.
[33:11.970 --> 33:14.630]  But it feels nice that we're actually coming back to a hotel again.
[33:14.970 --> 33:15.090]  Yeah.
[33:15.190 --> 33:16.610]  A hotel with some history behind it.
[33:16.790 --> 33:18.110]  Some, some interesting history.
[33:18.670 --> 33:18.870]  Yeah.
[33:19.850 --> 33:26.750]  Um, so, uh, Kusanagi, you are also involved with, uh, as we mentioned, the Hackers Got Talent event.
[33:27.210 --> 33:27.650]  Yes.
[33:27.970 --> 33:38.430]  We, we spoke a little bit about this in previous weeks on this program, but, uh, would, would you, how would you describe Hackers Got Talent, which is also in its 10th year this, uh, this, this year.
[33:38.630 --> 33:40.130]  It's a very special year.
[33:40.490 --> 33:45.430]  Um, and I've actually been a part of it for all of its, uh, this entire time.
[33:45.550 --> 33:48.970]  So I have a hundred percent attendance rating, unlike other people.
[33:49.510 --> 33:59.270]  Um, I, I always joke like on stage, I'm being dragged into it, but honestly, it's the one of the most fun things that we get to do.
[33:59.590 --> 34:02.530]  Um, it's actually one of the most popular events of all of hope.
[34:03.010 --> 34:04.670]  Um, and I'm really proud of that.
[34:04.890 --> 34:18.590]  Like, um, we, it's, you know, finally the one thing I get to do where I can kick back and relax and have other people, you know, figuratively, but literally as well dance for me, you know, get to enjoy that.
[34:19.130 --> 34:19.530]  Absolutely.
[34:19.570 --> 34:26.030]  It is happening, uh, 10 PM on Saturday and in, in the crystal ballroom, which, uh, which sounds cool.
[34:26.790 --> 34:31.450]  And, uh, it is not actually, it's not in the crystal ballroom.
[34:31.570 --> 34:33.370]  Oh, the schedule says it's in the crystal ballroom.
[34:33.750 --> 34:37.130]  I believe it's going to be changed to the grand ballroom.
[34:37.250 --> 34:37.590]  Okay.
[34:37.990 --> 34:45.130]  Because in true hackers got talent, um, fashion, it's so janky that we can't even get the room right.
[34:47.010 --> 34:47.490]  Excellent.
[34:47.590 --> 34:49.930]  So I believe it's going to be in the grand ballroom.
[34:50.110 --> 34:54.150]  Uh, we'll have signs, uh, tomorrow or I'll know for sure tomorrow.
[34:54.150 --> 34:54.750]  Okay.
[34:54.750 --> 34:57.590]  Well, we'll sort it out one way or the other, but it is happening at 10.
[34:57.750 --> 34:57.830]  Yeah.
[34:57.830 --> 35:03.510]  It is happening on Saturday and it is going to be emceed by, um, the two of us.
[35:03.550 --> 35:04.170]  By the two of us.
[35:04.270 --> 35:04.490]  Yes.
[35:04.630 --> 35:04.850]  Yes.
[35:05.050 --> 35:09.010]  Um, and, uh, we, we've been judges in the past on, at the event.
[35:09.410 --> 35:21.930]  Um, we were there, Rob was a judge at the first one and I was just sitting in the front row watching and Effie, I feel like that night was the first time I met you at the first hackers got talent.
[35:22.710 --> 35:32.710]  Um, you were not in the inflatable unicorn costume, but you were with the person in the inflatable unicorn costume is, am I remembering correctly?
[35:38.190 --> 35:39.390]  That's very possible.
[35:39.390 --> 35:40.610]  You might be right about that.
[35:42.290 --> 35:42.890]  Yes.
[35:43.050 --> 35:45.750]  Inflatable unicorns were just one of the many interesting things.
[35:45.750 --> 35:58.630]  Um, but, uh, yeah, it, it is, you know, our, our, our good friend, Jason Scott has emceed the event, emceed the event in the past and he can't make it this time where we're, uh, taking the reins and it'll, it's going to be fun.
[35:59.030 --> 36:03.470]  Um, you don't have to be super good at the talent that you're displaying at hackers got talent.
[36:03.650 --> 36:07.450]  You just have to be willing to get up in front of the crowd and have some fun with it.
[36:08.110 --> 36:12.470]  And, you know, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a production worthy.
[36:12.630 --> 36:13.890]  It doesn't have to be amazing.
[36:13.890 --> 36:16.090]  It just has just come up and have some fun.
[36:16.290 --> 36:17.050]  It doesn't have to be good.
[36:17.170 --> 36:18.110]  It just has to have heart.
[36:18.290 --> 36:20.070]  It doesn't have to be hacking related though.
[36:20.190 --> 36:20.690]  It could be.
[36:20.850 --> 36:21.150]  Yeah.
[36:21.330 --> 36:27.250]  And again, I will reissue the challenge I issued on this program a couple of weeks ago, which is the talent.
[36:27.250 --> 36:38.090]  I really want to see is I want to see someone stand on the stage and have three digit numbers yelled at them and just rapid fire, identify area codes.
[36:39.550 --> 36:41.150]  That would be so much fun, right?
[36:41.390 --> 36:43.530]  This is what, this is the talent I am looking for.
[36:44.010 --> 36:47.290]  This is, you know, this useful talent in today's day and age.
[36:48.110 --> 36:49.750]  Oh, you used to live in this place.
[36:49.750 --> 36:50.010]  Yes.
[36:50.470 --> 36:50.810]  Absolutely.
[36:51.170 --> 36:52.890]  And you know who would be good at that?
[36:53.030 --> 36:53.410]  Of course.
[36:53.610 --> 36:53.710]  Yes.
[36:53.890 --> 36:54.970]  Two people come to mind.
[36:55.130 --> 36:55.270]  Yes.
[36:55.490 --> 36:55.630]  Right.
[36:55.630 --> 37:01.830]  I mean, obviously, Emmanuel, his knowledge of area codes, but they're, they're, they're the older area codes.
[37:01.950 --> 37:02.070]  Right.
[37:02.130 --> 37:06.710]  I don't know if he's with it with, you know, once they've split in Kentucky or something like that.
[37:06.770 --> 37:06.850]  Right.
[37:06.850 --> 37:10.150]  He knows the ones that have either the zero or the one in the middle.
[37:10.550 --> 37:11.590]  And those are the area, right.
[37:11.770 --> 37:14.490]  And I think those are the ones that I know best as well.
[37:14.490 --> 37:19.290]  Well, but I think rebel, if you're listening, you're calling.
[37:20.750 --> 37:21.110]  Yep.
[37:22.150 --> 37:22.390]  Yep.
[37:22.750 --> 37:22.930]  Yep.
[37:23.090 --> 37:23.190]  Yep.
[37:23.190 --> 37:23.290]  Yep.
[37:23.290 --> 37:23.470]  Yep.
[37:23.810 --> 37:24.270]  Yep.
[37:24.270 --> 37:24.370]  Absolutely.
[37:24.810 --> 37:27.190]  Speaking of rebel, I want to point out that we're not taking phone calls.
[37:27.310 --> 37:29.310]  We're not doing off the hook over time tonight after this.
[37:29.490 --> 37:30.790]  Um, we're all just too busy.
[37:31.110 --> 37:36.810]  Um, you know, putting stuff together for hope, which, uh, we, we start wrangling properly tomorrow.
[37:37.470 --> 37:41.650]  Um, so yeah, we're all, we're all getting to bed early as early as possible tonight.
[37:41.810 --> 37:41.970]  Yeah.
[37:42.250 --> 37:46.510]  But I got to say another one though, for hackers got talent because Jason Scott's not going to be there.
[37:46.770 --> 37:50.130]  Whoever comes in as a Jason Scott cosplay should win.
[37:50.130 --> 37:54.470]  Um, I mean, well, we, we, well, there's always surprises.
[37:54.530 --> 38:01.290]  There's always something going on and I may or may not have something in the works that even Rob and Gila right now don't know about.
[38:01.530 --> 38:04.630]  Um, secrets, secrets, very big secrets.
[38:05.070 --> 38:10.830]  So, and of course there are always, as always, there'll be some kind of fun prize that we'll be giving out.
[38:11.290 --> 38:13.730]  Um, they haven't really decided on that yet.
[38:13.770 --> 38:19.630]  Well, some, some prizes that will be given out are here in this room with me right now, and I'm not going to tell you what they are.
[38:19.630 --> 38:20.590]  I am not the prize.
[38:21.130 --> 38:21.570]  You're not.
[38:21.630 --> 38:22.430]  I'd just like to clarify that.
[38:22.610 --> 38:23.510]  I'm in the room with you right now.
[38:23.630 --> 38:24.230]  I am not the prize.
[38:24.310 --> 38:24.930]  You're a prize.
[38:25.050 --> 38:26.610]  You're not the prize, but, um.
[38:26.610 --> 38:27.430]  I'm not a prize either.
[38:28.530 --> 38:32.670]  It's something, it's something relevant to, uh, to our community and its interests.
[38:32.970 --> 38:35.170]  And, uh, and you know, this will be fun.
[38:35.330 --> 38:36.350]  So hackers got talent.
[38:36.490 --> 38:41.030]  If you're coming to hope, come, uh, come either watch hackers got talent, uh, show off your own.
[38:41.230 --> 38:44.330]  Um, there'll be signup sheets or you could just show up at the event.
[38:44.670 --> 38:46.030]  Um, we'll, we'll have fun.
[38:46.770 --> 38:46.910]  Yeah.
[38:46.910 --> 38:52.910]  And if you're interested, you could sign up at the info desk throughout the conference up until the show starts.
[38:52.910 --> 38:58.750]  And then if you are bitten by the spirit of bravery during the show, just stand up.
[38:58.750 --> 39:00.730]  We, yeah, absolutely.
[39:00.930 --> 39:02.190]  We love a spirit of, uh, bravery.
[39:02.970 --> 39:06.290]  Um, so yeah, this is, this is going to be, this is going to be a fun event.
[39:06.530 --> 39:13.810]  Um, so I want to ask the, uh, folks out there, uh, what, uh, what particular things are you interested in seeing at this conference?
[39:14.030 --> 39:18.570]  Uh, you got anything you're already looking at on the schedule and, um, thinking you want to check out?
[39:21.150 --> 39:24.170]  Well, there, there are a couple of things that I am really looking forward to.
[39:24.230 --> 39:27.270]  I mean, like all the talks sound like they are going to be fire this year.
[39:27.870 --> 39:35.930]  And I really wish I could see a lot more of the talks, but, um, there is a panel on Saturday that I am very, very, very looking forward to.
[39:36.370 --> 39:38.310]  And I absolutely have got to be there.
[39:38.970 --> 39:39.190]  Hmm.
[39:40.490 --> 39:41.950]  And we all know who that is.
[39:42.690 --> 39:43.370]  Do tell.
[39:44.310 --> 39:48.730]  That is Rinaldi, Phantom Freak Santiago, the king of Ninex himself.
[39:48.970 --> 39:52.350]  He's going to be there discussing the 31st anniversary of Hackers.
[39:52.470 --> 39:53.670]  He's going to be with Emmanuel.
[39:54.130 --> 40:00.250]  I got to go and say hi to the guy because, um, Hackerstown has made a little gift bag for him and I got to give it to him.
[40:01.350 --> 40:11.190]  And, uh, for those unfamiliar, which is not at least half of this panel because, uh, a bunch of us are on Hackerstown, but how would you describe Hackerstown for, for the uninitiated?
[40:12.370 --> 40:20.430]  So Hackerstown is a Mastodon instance of hackers, oddballs, artists, weirdos, hacktivists, people who want to make the world better.
[40:20.590 --> 40:21.910]  We are the rest upon the gears.
[40:22.190 --> 40:23.850]  We are the KRAD.
[40:23.970 --> 40:25.150]  We are hacking the planet.
[40:25.550 --> 40:26.650]  You know, all the deal.
[40:27.210 --> 40:30.530]  Um, this was our 10th anniversary and we celebrated at a DEF CON.
[40:31.110 --> 40:35.070]  And we also have another thing in the works that we'd like to do for our 10th anniversary.
[40:35.070 --> 40:44.650]  And that is a full Hackerstown only issue of 2600 magazine with all the articles written by members of Hackerstown minus the regulars.
[40:44.790 --> 40:48.150]  Of course, you know, you still have to have the telecom operator in the mailbag.
[40:48.270 --> 40:50.950]  And of course, but everything else will be Hackerstown.
[40:51.110 --> 40:52.250]  This would be awesome.
[40:52.310 --> 40:53.950]  If it can get, uh, wrangled into place.
[40:54.290 --> 40:57.090]  And well, I have already spoken to Emmanuel about it.
[40:57.170 --> 40:58.230]  He already gave the go ahead.
[40:58.230 --> 41:05.130]  We just got to get the articles out, but you know, summer camp chaos just kind of made us say, okay, summer camp first articles later.
[41:05.430 --> 41:08.350]  It's, it's a, it's a, it's something to shoot for.
[41:08.710 --> 41:12.190]  Um, but yeah, um, Hackerstown, it's a, it's a Mastodon instance.
[41:12.590 --> 41:17.950]  And, uh, this program has our official Mastodon, uh, account on Hackerstown.
[41:17.950 --> 41:24.270]  So if you use Mastodon or anything else on the Fediverse, you can find it at, uh, off the hook at hackers.town.
[41:25.090 --> 41:28.110]  And, uh, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a fun place to be.
[41:28.470 --> 41:31.230]  And, uh, merry band of pranksters on there.
[41:31.850 --> 41:35.710]  Um, there, there's, uh, there's a lot of other interesting stuff.
[41:35.870 --> 41:41.010]  There is, um, a fella called John Huntington who works in, uh, show technology.
[41:41.490 --> 41:57.510]  And, uh, I, I think he might've been a guest on this program, uh, some time ago, but he, he, uh, he works in the specifics of a computer network for, um, things like animatronic shows, um, AV productions, um, concerts, uh, things like that.
[41:57.690 --> 41:59.390]  And the particular needs of them.
[41:59.710 --> 42:02.150]  Animatronic shows like the Rock of Fire explosion.
[42:03.490 --> 42:08.810]  Maybe not exactly like the Rock of Fire explosion, but think like your haunted houses, um, things of that sort.
[42:09.010 --> 42:10.230]  The Hall of Presidents.
[42:10.430 --> 42:14.950]  The Hall of Presidents, where, you know, Lincoln says, welcome to the Hall of Presidents.
[42:14.950 --> 42:17.870]  And, you know, there's, there's technology behind that.
[42:18.410 --> 42:24.210]  Um, one of the, one of the weird little niches of, uh, stuff that you don't always, uh, get talked about.
[42:24.710 --> 42:31.530]  Including, um, there, there is a, not, not that this is niche, but, uh, I just scrolled down the list and, uh, this caught my eye.
[42:31.650 --> 42:32.730]  Stop thinking of the children.
[42:32.910 --> 42:36.850]  Start listening to them by Evan Greer, who has spoken at Hope many times.
[42:37.290 --> 42:40.110]  And, uh, you know, interesting stuff there.
[42:40.510 --> 42:44.570]  Uh, take this job and pwn it by Lex Pendragon, or Pendragon.
[42:45.130 --> 42:45.550]  Um.
[42:47.690 --> 42:49.010]  Those were excellent talks, by the way.
[42:49.130 --> 42:49.290]  Yes.
[42:49.970 --> 42:53.150]  Um, and, uh, you know, just, uh, just a quick scroll down this.
[42:53.290 --> 42:59.410]  And if you can't make it to the conference, eventually this stuff will be, uh, put online in some form.
[43:00.050 --> 43:04.050]  Um, it always takes some time, but, uh, you know, we have channel 2600 on YouTube.
[43:04.050 --> 43:09.250]  You can see all the past conferences, the talks and the presentations that happen there.
[43:09.490 --> 43:13.490]  But, uh, so much of what happens at the conference is the conference itself.
[43:13.950 --> 43:18.370]  Um, just the people you run into, the people you talk to, the people you meet, workshops.
[43:18.930 --> 43:23.330]  Um, do, do I remember correctly that, uh, someone on this panel is getting a, is taking the ham test?
[43:25.030 --> 43:25.810]  Oh, okay.
[43:26.150 --> 43:26.390]  Yeah.
[43:26.710 --> 43:27.090]  Geez.
[43:27.330 --> 43:31.990]  You know, I, uh, I'm going to disappoint a lot of people here and say no.
[43:31.990 --> 43:34.110]  I'm glad, I'm glad you brought it up too, Rob.
[43:34.270 --> 43:36.810]  So I have an opportunity to, to kind of clear the air here.
[43:36.830 --> 43:41.210]  I'm going to, I'm not going to be able to take the ham test and pass it, uh, by Saturday.
[43:41.210 --> 43:43.290]  I just have not had the time to study.
[43:43.430 --> 43:53.070]  I underestimated the amount of material that it would take and the, the basic math skills that I've lost by practicing law over the last 20 something years.
[43:53.730 --> 43:55.710]  So I, uh, I'm sorry.
[43:56.110 --> 43:57.590]  I won't be able to take it.
[43:57.690 --> 44:02.910]  It would be an embarrassment to myself and to the ham community if I were to take it and, and fail it abysmally.
[44:03.270 --> 44:06.770]  But I do promise to take it shortly thereafter.
[44:06.870 --> 44:16.490]  It has just been an extraordinarily busy time, uh, with the family and professionally, lots of, uh, things going on for me over the last month.
[44:16.490 --> 44:20.990]  And I, I, uh, I underestimated my abilities and my time commitments.
[44:21.250 --> 44:24.830]  So I apologize to that community for disappointing you.
[44:24.930 --> 44:31.790]  And I very much appreciate everybody reaching out and welcoming me with the, you know, offers of use of their repeaters and whatnot.
[44:31.790 --> 44:34.030]  And I will be taking you up on it as soon as I pass.
[44:34.130 --> 44:35.210]  Just give me a little bit more time.
[44:36.110 --> 44:47.970]  But, uh, but Alex is going to be moderating a really incredible talk with Cindy Cohen, who was the, um, former executive director of the electronic found frontier foundation.
[44:48.110 --> 44:50.430]  And she's an incredible civil rights attorney.
[44:50.630 --> 44:54.810]  And I think that that's going to be an absolutely, um, you know, interesting discussion.
[44:55.030 --> 44:57.790]  Um, and it's all about, uh, digital surveillance.
[44:57.790 --> 45:10.350]  So if you want something that really goes, you know, um, you know, hand in hand with like a lot of the other talks that are happening at the, at the conference, like a guide to modern surveillance with, uh, was cell towers.
[45:10.350 --> 45:18.210]  I mean, absolutely fascinating and absolutely fascinating how many crimes can be solved through the use of cell towers and pinging and phones.
[45:18.590 --> 45:26.770]  And, and I mean, I think that that's going to be an absolutely, I think all these kind of talks, you know, it's an amazing thread.
[45:26.950 --> 45:35.850]  I think that there's a lot of exciting things for absolutely everybody coming from a prosecutorial background and investigative background that I currently work in.
[45:35.850 --> 45:39.770]  And I think that, um, a lot of these are just, um, really incredible.
[45:39.990 --> 45:47.150]  And, and not to mention, um, investigating the Epstein files is going to be a highlight.
[45:47.290 --> 45:54.230]  I think of, of this with, with Raphael Saturday, I think that it's going to be an, uh, absolutely incredible.
[45:54.870 --> 45:55.090]  Yeah.
[45:55.910 --> 46:00.750]  Not to interrupt you there, Effie, but I think the moderator of that one is supposedly brilliant too.
[46:05.590 --> 46:08.850]  Um, and not getting his, and not getting his hand license this weekend.
[46:09.050 --> 46:09.870]  So he's got a lot of free time.
[46:11.950 --> 46:14.510]  Well, I've always said that modesty was my best quality.
[46:14.950 --> 46:16.670]  So say we all, Alex, really.
[46:17.250 --> 46:18.590]  I mean, how many talks are you moderating?
[46:19.330 --> 46:19.930]  Oh my God.
[46:19.970 --> 46:20.970]  I think I'm doing three.
[46:21.190 --> 46:25.070]  I don't know how, and, and this year I, I said to myself, I'm not going to submit anything.
[46:25.470 --> 46:27.870]  I just kind of want to be an attendee and take it easy.
[46:28.490 --> 46:30.270]  And this is, this is what happens.
[46:30.430 --> 46:35.430]  My wife winds up doing a talk and I wind up moderating three talks, but, uh, you're right though, Effie.
[46:35.650 --> 46:38.310]  I think the Epstein files one is going to be amazing.
[46:38.310 --> 46:50.410]  And also because we have this special guest, Kyrie, who is literally the hacker that leaked the Epstein files to distributed denial of secrets, who's going to be joining us remotely for that.
[46:50.590 --> 46:54.510]  There's a reason why Kyrie can't obviously be there in person.
[46:54.510 --> 47:06.790]  Um, so, so that individual will be joining us on stage and talking about things like why they chose distributed denial of secrets to distribute the, uh, the Epstein files too.
[47:06.990 --> 47:13.110]  And, uh, all kinds of things like operational security, what the risks that you're taking, that's going to be fascinating.
[47:13.110 --> 47:17.570]  Also doing a blue leaks panel with them and best from distributed denial of secrets.
[47:17.570 --> 47:36.130]  Um, but, um, to go back to the Epstein files one, I mean, you mentioned Raphael Satter, Effie, he is going to tell some incredible stories of the reporting that he had that relate to the FBI and the breach of the Epstein files way before they were actually released to the public.
[47:36.270 --> 47:45.190]  Um, he also had access to the, because of an FBI fell up and it's a totally crazy story that he reported.
[47:45.570 --> 47:47.050]  So, um, yeah, it would be exciting.
[47:47.290 --> 47:48.470]  It's going to be a lot of good stuff.
[47:48.590 --> 47:49.610]  Action packed weekend ahead.
[47:50.130 --> 47:50.490]  Yeah.
[47:51.030 --> 47:55.450]  Um, and, and there's a possibility Alex will have a four legged friend with him.
[47:56.490 --> 47:56.890]  Excellent.
[47:58.270 --> 47:58.770]  That's right.
[47:59.130 --> 47:59.310]  Yep.
[47:59.970 --> 48:00.330]  That's good.
[48:00.350 --> 48:02.170]  That's, that's something I look forward to it.
[48:02.250 --> 48:03.470]  Hope is, uh, playing with your dog.
[48:04.010 --> 48:08.630]  Um, but, uh, no, this, this, uh, this promises to be interesting.
[48:09.490 --> 48:14.090]  And, uh, it is, it is an event that is what it is because of the people involved.
[48:14.090 --> 48:16.490]  And that includes the folks here on this panel.
[48:16.710 --> 48:18.210]  It includes so many more out there.
[48:18.490 --> 48:28.570]  Um, the speakers, the workshop presenters, the attendees, the people who contribute their time and expertise and, uh, and smarts to just making all this happen.
[48:28.950 --> 48:32.670]  And, uh, it is, it is really amazing to me.
[48:32.770 --> 48:39.570]  I've been, I've been going to hope, um, since my first one was 2000 and I've gone to all but one since, uh, once I had COVID.
[48:39.570 --> 48:47.250]  Um, but, uh, it is something that I've been able to watch grow as I attended it, as I got involved with it.
[48:47.430 --> 48:52.810]  And it's been an amazing experience and it, it just, it wouldn't happen like this anywhere else.
[48:53.110 --> 49:00.630]  It is, it is, uh, just such an amazing crowd to be part of and be, uh, be, be hanging around with.
[49:01.250 --> 49:04.530]  I, I feel like, yeah, like I am very stoked for this hope.
[49:04.590 --> 49:07.070]  I mean, like we, we have a new venue.
[49:07.430 --> 49:09.370]  We are away from St. John's.
[49:09.430 --> 49:16.170]  Cause I kind of felt like St. John's was a good venue, but I kind of felt like the oppression a little bit because of like the religious overview.
[49:16.810 --> 49:22.770]  And then of course, somebody got their knickers in a twist over there and we had to leave, but I'm glad that we got this new venue.
[49:23.470 --> 49:26.070]  And I'm also really happy to see hope grow as well.
[49:26.070 --> 49:28.090]  I mean, like this is my eighth hope.
[49:28.510 --> 49:30.130]  I have been going since 2008.
[49:30.510 --> 49:32.130]  Um, I only missed, what was it?
[49:33.530 --> 49:38.690]  2014 and 2020, but I've missed up, but I got eight, 12, eight, 10.
[49:39.190 --> 49:43.870]  Uh, yeah, I missed 12 and 14, 16, 18, 22, 24, 25, 26.
[49:44.730 --> 49:49.250]  And I'm just going to continue to go to hope because it's like, it's still been one of the best conferences I've ever been to.
[49:49.790 --> 49:54.710]  Like the people, the locals, just like now that we're back in New York, it's going to be great.
[49:55.610 --> 50:01.530]  And I also feel that this year, it's kind of like how DEF CON has said that their theme was agency.
[50:01.910 --> 50:04.490]  And I feel like hope is also doing that agency.
[50:05.090 --> 50:06.910]  We're concerned about what's going on.
[50:07.010 --> 50:09.050]  We're concerned about the state of the world right now.
[50:09.170 --> 50:14.490]  We're concerned about all of the surveillance and all of the fascism and everything else going on.
[50:14.730 --> 50:18.890]  And we're just looking to find a way of changing the world for the better.
[50:20.130 --> 50:20.570]  Absolutely.
[50:20.570 --> 50:23.810]  And, uh, we're going to have to leave it there.
[50:24.110 --> 50:26.650]  Um, keep up with what's going on with hope at hope.net.
[50:27.030 --> 50:31.570]  Um, send us email OTH at 2600.com.
[50:32.630 --> 50:33.710]  We love an email.
[50:33.890 --> 50:34.950]  We still read our email.
[50:35.590 --> 50:37.330]  We're very happy to get your email.
[50:38.250 --> 50:40.230]  Um, yeah.
[50:40.490 --> 50:44.570]  Keep, uh, supporting WBAI 99.5 FM.
[50:44.790 --> 51:01.630]  Go to give to WBAI.com.org or give to, or buddy.wbai.org to, uh, throw what you can in to support this radio station and this network and community radio that, uh, does not answer to commercial interests,
[51:08.090 --> 51:11.450]  whether or not you're joining us this weekend at hope.
[51:13.610 --> 51:15.010]  We wish you a very good week
[51:19.890 --> 51:22.350]  for off the hook.
[51:23.810 --> 51:24.730]  This has been Rob T.
[51:24.850 --> 51:25.190]  Firefly.
[51:26.830 --> 51:27.750]  Have a very good night.
[53:50.850 --> 53:52.210]  Who are the wolves?
[53:53.310 --> 53:55.130]  I want all of the wolves.
[53:56.010 --> 53:56.870]  Send the word.