Microsoft has released a warning of an aggressive virus which is affecting a large number of PC users.
Microsoft has stated that the virus will attack Windows XP, Windows 2000, Windows Server, and NT4 operating systems.
Users who have not previously applied the security patch MS03-026 are at risk.
This is not a hardware issue with your computer.
The resolution to the problem can be found at www.microsoft.com slash security slash incident slash blast.asp.
Due to this virus, our hold times are averaging 25 to 30 minutes.
Again, if you are experiencing the effects of this virus, your best resolution is to go to www.microsoft.com slash security slash incident slash blast.asp.
This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers.
To the hackers and the crackers.
I see in binary, I speak source code.
Step on my toes, I'll post a million game pegs of you in a fag pose.
In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho.
Cause I'm riding the net in my six foe.
I was a dick with my 56.
Now with my cable, I'm able to get that stable.
On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo.
On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero.
In a flash, I'll screw you on burning dream caps.
You need some ISOs?
Let me do my hard drive rifle.
Our exchange you could never stifle.
In a digital hug, you just caught the love bug.
I bootlegged your CD.
I caused the fight between Un and Jay-Z.
To CG, it's all gonna be free.
Whether we take it by force or we take it nicely.
You feel that rattle in your bones?
When I tell you we just hacked out Jones.
And NASDAQ, leave you flat on your back.
Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.
This is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers.
Serial codes, source codes, ISOs, RAMs, SIPs, SISs.
Dedicated to the hackers and the crackers.
All right, ladies and gentlemen, I am StankDawg.
And you just got done listening to a little customer support call
that I made to Toshiba about my laptop, which I mentioned last week is DOA.
So when I first called, that's the message that you get.
I guess they're getting a lot of calls for the good old blaster virus
that we talked about and it's still going around.
So I played that in the opening.
And you might have also noticed in the opening
that we didn't have mute's theme music this week.
Hmm.
Well, we didn't play mute's music.
Well, then we also didn't play dual parallels music.
So I guess I'm going to be flying solo today.
So you're going to have to put up with my voice alone for the next hour
unless I can come up with...
Oh, wait a minute.
My phone is on.
Is somebody on the line?
I think there might be.
And who is the mystery guest?
Sign in, please.
Mystery guest is not theory this week.
Not theory in the house.
In the house.
Mute's tagline.
We're stealing it for everything.
Well, welcome to the show.
And I'm sure a lot of the listeners know you from the forums.
Yes, good to be here.
Been trying to get you on here for a while
and we just haven't been able to get the timing worked out.
So I'm glad to have you on.
I've got a lot of stuff to talk about.
Um, but before we do...
Actually, I'm going to jump into a couple emails I got from last week,
if that's alright with you.
Yeah, go for it.
Um, I got...
And this is...
You know what?
I'm going to read this email.
And frankly, I don't necessarily have an answer to this
because mute's more the ham guy, the radio guy.
Um, but I got an email from Total Blackout.
And it says...
Uh, let's see.
If the idea that you guys had about making something that would block
or jam the signal of the RFID tag, 13.56,
this again was something we talked about last week,
or whatever that was works would be awesome.
But I have a question about this.
I hope you can help me figure it out.
Well, I probably can't, but let's see what we can do.
If for...
Let's see.
If for made...
Hmm, not sure of the English here.
Uh, if you made a device that is portable,
like something you can hold in your hand
or put in your car or whatever to jam the signal,
wouldn't that device all...
Wouldn't that device fall under the FCC's Part 15 rule,
which in turn would make it illegal to, quote,
cause harmful interference?
So I hope I didn't mangle that up too.
I was stumbling over the words there.
I got it formatted funny on here.
But basically, I guess what he's saying is,
are we causing harmful interference?
And again, frankly, I don't know the answer.
I wish I did.
You know who...
Jaga would know this for sure.
If he's listening, email me back,
or we'll see if we can get an answer to this.
I know you probably can next week.
Give us an answer.
I think I might have a little bit of insight into this.
Please, by all means.
Part 15 rule says that all devices that fall under Part 15 must accept harmful interference,
or must accept interference that is caused by any other device.
But I think they mean by any other licensed device aside from Part 15.
So a Part 15 device has to accept interference, but can't cause harmful interference to anything else.
If you cause interference unintentionally, then you can probably get away with it.
But if you have a box to block RFIDs, I think you'd have a hard time saying that it's not harmful interference.
I could be wrong.
I'm not totally sure about that.
I haven't really got a chance.
Yeah, we'll definitely check with Mute next week and see what he has to say.
But that sounds very reasonable.
I guess, though, it's kind of...
Well, I don't know.
Is it difficult?
I was going to say maybe it's kind of difficult to judge intent.
I mean, isn't it a little ironic or a little strange?
Do I not have...
By doing what we suggested last week...
And let me back up and refresh the listeners who didn't hear this discussion last week.
I'll kind of summarize.
We talked about creating a device, a small, low-power device that could...
A person could carry around with them to jam RFID sweepers or RFID listeners so that you couldn't be tracked so easily.
Obviously, theoretically, all this is just, you know, what if and could it work that way?
So, I guess they're telling me that by making that device and sending out disruptor signals or more overpowering signals or blocking signals at that frequency that that is causing harmful interference.
I don't really like the idea of that because that's also, at the same time, telling me I don't have the right to take action to protect my privacy.
True. Very true.
I don't really like the sound of that.
I mean, I understand that that's the rule, and there's probably very good...
I'm sure there... I know there's very good reason for it.
But at the same time, it does cross into a privacy aspect.
I'm not sure how to feel about that, frankly.
I just kind of put myself on the spot there.
In theory, I guess if you could create another device on the same frequency that actually had, like, a useful purpose or something like that, maybe some two-way radio or something, you could argue that, yeah, it interferes with RFID, but it's not causing harmful interference because it has a valid purpose.
Yeah, it's very difficult to prove intent.
So, I mean, even if I made the device, I could say that it was, you know, I intended it to...
Hell, I could play crazy and say I intended to block aliens from reading my mind.
I mean, how are they going to judge my intent, you know?
Yeah.
Hmm.
That's interesting.
That is an interesting thing to think about.
Technically, by the letter of the law, you may be right.
Total blackout.
You may be right with that.
But, like everything else, how would you prove it?
How would they prove that in court?
How would they catch you or bust you on something like that?
And, honestly, how and when and where could they catch you?
I mean, nobody's going to realize what the hell you're doing in the first place unless you go back and they happen to recognize you from going into the same Walmart over and over.
Every time Stank Dog walks in the building, all of a sudden the RFIT gags get fucked up and nobody can check out.
Yeah, they might associate it with through repetition, but...
Yeah, but the FCC guys aren't going to be waiting in the bushes for you.
No, exactly.
Exactly.
Hmm.
No, that's a very interesting point.
That was a good email.
I did get another email from...
Well, I guess we'll leave it anonymous.
We won't give out a...
It was signed with a real name, which I'm not going to read.
But this, I thought, was a pretty good question.
It takes me back to the old school a little bit.
He says,
Do hackers use anything else besides a regular modem, a war dialing program, to dial up hack, like special equipment?
Okay, I'm trying...
Again, I'm formatting pretty bad here.
Let me start over because I'm chopping up this email.
Do hackers use anything else besides a regular modem, a war dialing program, to dial up hack, like special equipment?
How do hackers get their modem to connect to the target modem?
Well, we used to have...
First of all, war dialing I haven't done in years.
Years.
And funny that, if anything, the guys in the Freaks and Geeks forum, the guys and girls in the Freaks and Geeks forum, might know more about this than I do because that has become a more useful tool for the freaks to try to find their different magic numbers that they like to play with.
The extenders and stuff like that.
But back in the day, you know what, just totally off the top of my head, the movie War Games comes to mind.
There was a war dialing scene in War Games.
It's basically a piece of software that you put on your computer and it goes...
Yes, it requires a regular, plain old modem.
Now back, I remember we used to have an old 300-bar modem that you put the handset, the old-fashioned round handsets in.
Yeah, very nice.
Yep.
Oh, I wish I had one of those just to hang on the wall, just to look at because, man, that was really one of the most, one of the first things that I thought, you know, that really reminds me of hacking when I first started getting into it, was using that.
And it was so cool, I wish I had one now just to look at, just as a... I do not have one. I'm looking around the room now, I do not have one.
I think I have one.
I think I do have one.
Oh.
If I can find it, I'll take some pictures of it for you.
Oh yeah, we'll put those up.
That's definitely a throwback to the old school.
Alright.
But basically, no matter what kind of modem you use, you are going to basically put in a sequence of numbers and it's going to just start dialing them, thus the term war dialing.
So you can start with, I'll make up, what's, I don't know, what's Miami area code, 305 area code, and start with, you know, 001, 002, 003, et cetera.
You pick an A&I and you start going through it from number one and dialing them up.
Obviously, if a person answers, that's of little or no interest to a hacker.
If something else answers, whether it be a fax machine, another computer, again, an extender or some type of phone equipment, which is why the freaks are more into it now than the hackers, depending on what answers it and depending on what software you use, again, unfortunately, I can't recommend any now because I haven't used them in years, but it will mark down what answered, whether it was a fax machine, whether it was a computer.
And you can go back to that number later and follow up on it and see what it was.
It was a great way to find underground BBSs, find a lot of hacking sites that were run by somebody out of their basement.
They just had their modem set to incoming calls and you could log on and go through the doors and all that kind of good stuff.
Unfortunately, that's gone the way of the dinosaur.
Those are, for the most part, extinct.
Everybody that was running those has moved to the web and moved to the internet and moved to forums, etc., etc., so they're very few and far between anymore, which is the reason why hackers really don't get into it too much anymore.
Yes, we still do, and yes, there are still things out there that will pick up, but they're very specific into what you're dialing in and what you can do for it.
As far as software and how would you, what do you do once you get a number, which I think is what he was alluding to in his question, well, that all depends on what answered.
Obviously, if a fax machine picks up, you know, you can do whatever, you can spam the fax machine, you can take it down, you can do whatever you want to do with it.
It's very passe, very, you know, there's not much to that.
That's kind of boring to me.
But, like I said, if you found a BBS, if you found, gosh, anything answering on the other end, you would have to feel out what it is.
You'd open up Kermit, open up some type of terminal application, and throw some commands at this thing.
Dial that number directly, of course, now that you have the number from war dialing.
Dial into it and see what it prompts you with.
Back then, you could identify what kind of system it was based on the way it would prompt you for your username and password, if there was one.
And sometimes, if it was something you'd never seen before, you'd just kind of have to throw commands at it, play around with it, see what it does, see if it comes up with a menu system.
It's very similar to Telnet emulation today, so to speak.
You can't just, and maybe you can back me up on this one.
Telnet is not Telnet.
I have this argument with Unix people a lot.
Telnet is not plain old Telnet.
I've had somebody tell me that before.
Telnet is Telnet.
Well, no, it's not really.
There's different emulation that you need when you Telnet into different systems.
And people who are limited only to Unix, you know you're using a VT100 connection that, you know, it's nothing fancy.
It's just a command line, and it's pretty straightforward because it's nothing but scrolling.
Well, if you Telnet into an AS400 system, for example, you have to have a certain type of emulation.
They don't throw back scrolling text.
They throw up menus.
They throw up screens to you.
And you have to be able to interpret those screens or it's going to come through all garbled.
And that's where emulation comes in.
If you want to Telnet to an AS400 system, you use 5250 emulation.
If you want to Telnet to some mainframe systems, you use 3270 emulation.
And there's just lists and lists and lists of them.
Yeah, there's VT100, VT102, VT220, VT52, ANSI.
There's just too many to even list.
Yeah, exactly.
And it all depends on what's answering on the other side.
What are they emulating?
What do you need to emulate to them on the other side on the server?
And the reason I bring this up is because it's very similar to what it used to be with warding.
How do you know, once you get a number from warding, how do you know what software to use?
How do you know how to access it?
How do you know how to hack it?
How do you know how to whatever?
You have to wing it and figure out exactly what it's doing.
Yeah, sometimes you'll disconnect and it'll just spit back garbage.
And you have to change the stop bits and the parity and all that other stuff.
Exactly. 8N1.
Yep, or 7E1 or 7E1.
8N1.
Everybody locked into 8N1.
Except if you found something really weird, sometimes you'll see like 7S3 or something or 7S2.
There's some crazy stuff out there if you keep looking.
Right.
And you know, like, well, I know everybody hates to mention this, but the movie hackers,
they hacked into this television thing with the robotic arm and stuff like that.
I'm sure that was some very customized thing.
They Hollywooded it up.
Somebody just dials a number and all of a sudden they're controlling robot arms.
No, it doesn't quite work like that.
You have to do a lot of figuring out of what's on the other end and how to access it.
And, of course, the security involved.
And it's a big mess.
Not as simple as Hollywood would make it out sometimes.
But I think that answers your question.
You have to figure out what the server, and when you're dialing something else up, that is the server on the other end that you're connecting to.
You have to figure out what that target is running.
For example, AOL gives you dial up numbers, local access numbers.
You dial, and any ISP does.
I use AOL as an example because they suck.
But AOL gives you a dial up number and you dial it up.
You have AOL client software, which is an emulation, so to speak, which is an interface with AOL.
So it traverses that network and it throws up all the commands back and forth and does all the interpreting to give you all those wonderful spam, pop-up, and child pornography rooms that everyone loves so much.
So that software is customized for that AOL connection.
If you didn't have AOL and you dialed into that, who knows what you'd be faced with.
You'd probably get a bunch of gibberish, a bunch of weird things.
Maybe there's some backdoor access that you can get in with VT100.
You're faced with a different login.
Could be different things like that.
But generally, they're looking for one type of login and you just have to figure it out or know what it is.
Footprint where you're looking for and see if you can figure out what it is.
Yeah, and the stuff that I've seen that has fancy terminal emulation usually spits back like some type of challenge.
It gives you some strength and then your client has to respond with some strength back, otherwise it just hangs up on you.
So it knows that you're using the right client software.
Exactly.
So that's the mailbag this week.
That was actually very interesting.
It took me back down memory lane there with the old coupler modem.
That was good stuff.
Gosh, we went from 3 to 12 and what just an incredible jump that was back then.
And now I'm at 1.5 megabits per second.
What an amazing, amazing leap.
You know what's even more amazing is that 1.5 megabits is still slow.
Yeah, well that's true.
That's true.
Some sites more than others too.
And you know what, we'll save that for another time.
A lot of people don't realize too that, well I guess they realize but they don't analytically think it out.
A lot of times when you go someplace and you're thinking how slow it is, how slow it is, pop open a command window, go to a command line and do a traceroute on it.
Because you may be getting a full on pipe to your ISP and that site may be full up on their ISP but somewhere in the middle you're getting dropped or you got congestion or something like that.
So, just a little bonus for you, I don't know what that had to do with anything, it just popped into my head.
Alright sir.
You know, speaking of packets and passing the stuff along, I know you have been doing some research on packet 8.
Which for the listeners who have been listening to RFA, I know we spoke about this a lot, we talk about this a lot.
And that was Vonage, which is a voice over IP way of communicating and packet 8 is a similar setup.
Right.
And I know you went through it recently and you posted on the forums, but why don't you just tell us some general stuff about that and how you like it, some general how does it work.
And we don't have to go into deep analysis, but basically what do you think of it so far?
Well, like you said, it's pretty much like Vonage and for those who don't have Vonage, it's just a little bit cheaper and you plug this box into your network, you plug your phone in, you pick up the phone and you get a dial tone and you can just dial out wherever you want.
And it's unlimited, sound quality is pretty good, although definitely not as good as a regular phone as we found out tonight.
But I did a little bit of packets missing on the box and it turns out that packet 8 is not very concerned about security whatsoever.
Hmm, no encryption?
No, not even close.
Not even close?
The data is passed back, not even in a binary format, it's passed back and forth as text.
If you guys want to do a little bit of homework, look up SIP and I think it's SDP, which is Session Initiation Protocol and Session Description Protocol.
And they're both text based protocols for voice over IP applications.
And you can get a lot of good information out of it.
And if you're clever with the packet smiffer, you can probably find a way to do a lot of things they don't want you to do.
So I guess I'll probably just leave it at that and you guys will probably see an article about it sometime soon.
Hmm, hopefully that sounds very interesting to me.
Now how do you differentiate the packets, since this is already on your local network,
how do you differentiate the sound or the, I don't know what the proper terminology, normal network traffic from the voice over IP traffic?
Oh, the voice over IP traffic, first of all, it's all UDP.
It has a control channel on port 5060.
And then you just watch port 5060 UDP traffic and you'll see these messages that say,
OK, open an audio channel on port 8002 for your outgoing audio.
Open another audio channel on port 16000 or whatever for your incoming audio and stuff like that.
I had no idea it was on UDP.
So did you have to punch open a couple of holes in your firewall to get that coming in and out?
Now see, that's the amazing thing.
That's what makes no sense to me.
Everybody I know that has it, that has a firewall, it just magically works.
I've read a couple of articles about it and everybody online who's done a review of it,
they say, I have no idea how it works, but it does.
It just gets out to the network on port 5060.
And even on their web page, they, you know, toot their own horns and they say, you know,
you don't have to poke a hole into anything.
Wow.
So it just works out of the box.
I have no idea how.
If anybody knows, email me, let me know, because I'm really curious.
Yeah, that sounds very interesting.
I'd be curious to hear that myself.
It seems like, well, I mean, you know what?
That's a good thing for, you know, reaching the masses and to get this out for people to use.
From a business standpoint, it's great that it's that simple.
But, yes, you know, someone who's concerned about security, you know,
I want to know how and why is it opening that port on my firewall.
Now, the way I look at it, we're telling everybody we're vulnerable on port 5060.
Somebody wants to come through, that's now an open port if you know somebody's using Packet 8 or Vonage.
I wonder if Vonage is a similar setup.
Did you do any research on that when you're comparing the two?
I did a little bit of research on it and it looks like the Vonage stuff may be a little more secure because the hardware is made by Cisco.
And I trust Cisco, I guess, a little bit more than Packet 8 because Packet 8 makes their own hardware.
They do. That's also interesting to know.
Yeah, I don't know.
But I think still, you know, they still use the same SIP protocols.
There's still a lot of stuff you can sniff.
And the box has a built-in web server in it that they don't tell you about that has not even an option to put a password into it.
So if it's not behind a firewall, you're definitely screwed.
So that's, I assume, some sort of configuration from internal that you can access internally?
Yeah, there's a couple of options that they don't even tell you that you can, you know, that exist in the first place.
So you can poke around with that and do some stuff, but you've got to be a little careful,
otherwise your box will just magically stop working, as I found out.
Have you had any opportunity or need to use their support?
No, actually not yet.
The thing has just worked so well, you know, so far I haven't bothered to call them for anything.
I asked them one question through email about the caller ID bug,
and it seems like everybody's found the same caller ID bug that I have,
which is that the caller ID number, instead of just being, you know, NPA, NXX,
and the last four digits, it actually has a one before it.
So your caller ID box is going to get all of those digits except for the very last one.
So you're missing the last digit on somebody's incoming caller ID, which is kind of a drag,
but again, if you packet sniff it, you can just get it right out of the packet.
But they're working on a fix, and other than that, I've had no problems with it.
All right, so sounds good.
We can't really judge their support yet since we haven't had the need to access it,
but for the most part, you're happy with it.
Yeah, it's very good.
Do you regret, do you think maybe you should have gone with Vonage,
or are you happy with Packet 8?
You know, I've heard actually that some bad things about Vonage,
some problems with Echo and stuff like this,
and they're, I think, $15 or $16 a month more expensive for the same service,
so I'm going to stick with Packet 8 and pack away at it.
I think also, like I said, because their hardware is homebrew,
that there's going to be a lot more hacking opportunities for it than the Cisco APA 186 that Vonage uses.
So I wonder if the Packet 8 manufacturers, or for lack of a better term,
I wonder if they produce hardware for any other devices besides their own.
I don't know.
That's a good question.
They probably do.
They're a fairly big company.
So if you want to look and see if they do anything else, search for 8x8 Networks.
That's a company that owns Packet 8.
They're the manufacturers of the hardware.
So who knows?
They do.
Good deal.
Yeah, I'm hoping that these do take off.
Now, like you said, we did try it earlier and give it a little test run,
and it wasn't quite, from my standpoint anyway,
I think you were a little bit softer on the Packet 8 device.
The voice did not come through quite as loud, and I think we voxed a little bit.
I think we were voxing each other out on occasion.
So, I mean, like with any other device, since it is voice over IP and packets switching,
the potential for lost packets is there.
Yeah.
Yeah, the packets are pretty small, though.
So even if you lose a couple packets here and there,
the error concealment hardware that's in there does a pretty good job of covering it up.
But yeah, it's definitely not the quality of a regular phone,
but, you know, it's good enough, and it's $20 a month unlimited, so I can't complain.
No, yeah, you can't beat that with a bat.
I just hope they start doing the three-way calling, so.
Yeah.
You know, actually, that's not going to help me now that I think about it,
because I almost said the F word.
See, I'm getting so much better at catching myself.
My freaking phone company, Bell South, will not let me have DSL without having basic phone service.
So even if I wanted to get rid of my phone service and go over to this,
unless they're going to offer DSL along with this, you know, as a feature,
I would still have to pay the stupid phone company to keep my DSL and a basic phone line,
and then buy the Vonage or Package 8 on top of it?
Nah, see, that's too much for me.
Yeah.
Until they can, you know, make an all-in-one, which, unfortunately, is very unrealistic.
But Verizon has the same problem in New York.
You know, you can't get away from getting phone service if you have DSL.
Yeah.
The cheapest phone service you can get is probably still going to cost you like 15 or 20 bucks a month.
Yeah.
With no service.
Absolutely.
And I would switch to a cable modem if they offered it.
And my crappy cable company, as I spoke of many times, doesn't offer cable modem.
So I don't really have much of a choice.
But I've got to say, my DSL works pretty fast.
I'm happy with it.
Just don't like the fact that I'm raped into the same, you know, I have no choice in the matter.
Yeah, I would switch to a cable modem, too, for, you know, it's probably a little bit faster around here.
But the only thing about my DSL provider is they give me 13 static IPs for free.
So I can't really beat that.
Wow.
Very cool.
Yeah, usually, I know from mine, they charge you for each one.
Yeah.
They'll charge you if you want one extra.
And then if you want, I think they start doing them in groups of five after that, charging you for a group of five.
So, yeah, that, in and of itself, that's a nice little bonus.
But, see, the thing about the cable modem, and Dual and I have talked about this, they vary greatly from installation to installation.
A friend of mine has cable modem, and it's horrible.
He still has to hook into a phone line for uploads, which is only 28.8.
I mean, that's just disgusting.
It's download only, you know.
So, you know, that's not going to work for me.
That's not acceptable.
So, I don't know.
Now, I know, in between all this hacking and playing with Packet 8, you did take a little bit of a break, didn't you?
Yeah, somewhat.
You headed out west, west, west.
I wanted to go myself, but you know how that goes.
Real life kicks you in the nuts sometimes.
Yep.
But you did make it to DEF CON in Las Vegas, right?
Yep.
I went out to DEF CON, stayed there for four days, met up with Epiphany, Johnny Lightning, and some other kid who I can't remember, which I feel really bad about.
But then I got to meet up with the other people.
You know, I met Cheshire Catalyst, and got to hang out and watch Hacker Jeopardy up in the front row there.
So, it was a pretty good time.
Yes, sir.
The only real problem I had with the show was that the talks filled up so quickly.
And even if you were in a talk and you wanted to see the next talk, they would empty out the whole room before they, you know, would start up the next talk.
So, you would miss the talk even if you were there, you know, hours beforehand.
You couldn't just stay in your seat?
No, you couldn't stay in the seat.
They would not let the next talk start until they kicked everybody out.
Oh, that's lame.
Yeah, that was really terrible.
That's very lame.
You know, I went to H2K2 and didn't have that problem with any talk.
Like, even if it was very full, you could always stand in the back.
But, apparently, the fire marshal in Vegas doesn't like people packed in like that.
So, there was nothing we could do.
Hmm.
But, hopefully, H2K4, or whatever they call it this year, is going to...
If they have it, yeah.
Well, no.
According to Cheshire Catalyst, they're going to have it.
It's not going to be called H2K4, but they're definitely going to have it.
Oh, well, that's news to me, because I had never heard a confirmation on whether they were going to do it.
So, that's very good news.
Yeah, I asked him point blank, and he said they're going to do it.
And, I think it's also the 20th anniversary of 2600 next year, isn't it?
Hmm.
Started 1984.
1984.
So, yes.
I guess that sounds about right.
So, maybe they'll be doing something special for it.
I don't know what the exact month and all that kind of stuff is.
But, yeah.
1984.
Hmm.
Well, I'm definitely going to try to make it to that.
Yeah, I'll be there.
It's only, you know, 20 miles from here.
20 miles from here, so.
Oh, yeah.
You're...
We're going to...
We'll all crash at your place.
How's that?
Oh, Jesus.
No.
Yeah.
Actually, I've already talked to Epiphany.
Epiphany and Johnny Lightning, for those of you who don't know, are in the...
have the McDonald's Wireless article in 2600.
A good friend of mine, Epiphany, and I've already talked to him about possibly hooking
up showing me around New York because, as I've mentioned before, I've never been there.
So, I definitely want to go up there and check it out and see all the things you see
on television.
To me, a person like me, and I guess this sounds kind of corny, but New York is like
a...
I don't know, not a Mecca, but it's like...
You've got to go to New York once in your life, you know?
Yeah, definitely.
There's a lot of stuff to see here.
I definitely am looking forward to that.
And riding the subway.
I wouldn't be looking forward to that.
Yeah.
As long as nobody pisses on me or rolls over me with a skateboard or, you know...
I don't want to get into a fight my first night in New York and get kicked out of the
whole fucking conference or something.
They can piss on me and do all that type of stuff.
As long as they don't push me on the tracks, I'm fine.
Yeah, I don't want to get caught in any gang fights or bum fights or anything like that.
Yeah, stay out of the South Bronx, you'll probably be okay.
Alright, good deal.
I'll go to Central Park, but I'll make sure I go in the daytime.
Yeah, that might be a good call too.
So, DEFCON, thumbs up, thumbs down.
Or do you not remember because you were drunk in the pool?
Uh, see, that's the thing.
Epiphany brought that up and we talked about it and apparently the guy drunk in the pool
was somebody else.
Oh.
No, I was drunk the night before, very much so during Hacker Jeopardy.
But...
Isn't that pretty much part of DEFCON?
I mean, DEFCON has a reputation...
Let's clear this up on the air now.
DEFCON has the reputation of being less of a hacker learning and conferences and presentations
and more of a big party.
Um...
Is that true?
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely at night it turns into a big party.
I mean...
And not that there's anything wrong with that, but let's just, you know, compare it to H2K2
or the HOPE conferences or whatever.
Um, I would imagine that...
First of all, I would imagine it's an older crowd in general at DEFCON.
Is that correct assumption?
It's kind of a mixed bag.
There's a lot of people there who are much older and there's a lot of people who are really,
really young.
I mean, like 13 years old.
Wow.
I'm a young, but I'm an old guy.
So...
Join the club.
Yep.
But yeah, at H2K2, I didn't see any girls jumping out of the hot tub topless.
Oh, man!
Well, screw that.
I'm not going.
Yeah, well, at DEFCON, you definitely see some of that.
So you might, uh, you might want to hook up, uh...
Ooh!
Some of them.
Gotta go get me some of those Las Vegas strippers.
Mm-hmm.
Jump in the hot tub.
Do a Girls Gone...
Do a Hacker Girls Gone Wild video.
Oh, they actually had a video.
Funny you mention that.
I think it's called Haxor, but it has three X's in it.
And it's about...
It's some ridiculous $40 DVD that, uh...
Basically, it's got girls doing, like, packet sniffing and mapping and all this other kind
of stuff, naked.
What?
Are you kidding me?
Where to God?
I saw it there.
They had the girls there autographing the thing.
And they were selling them for $40 bucks?
$40 DVD.
Son of Beach!
Don't worry, it'll be on Kazaa soon.
Son of Beach!
Somebody hooked that up, man!
I am not...
40 bucks?!
Yeah.
Good Lord!
But I'm sure somebody's already, uh...
Somebody's already ripped it and put it up somewhere, so...
Yeah, I have to keep my eyes.
H-A-X-X-X-O-R, right?
I think that's what it's called.
I only get to see it really quickly, but...
Hmm, I might have to get a preview of that, because we don't condone piracy or anything,
but I would like to borrow that from someone.
I actually know somebody who has it, so he's gonna let me borrow it.
We'll pull a, uh...
What is that thing?
Netflix?
We'll pull a Netflix.
You can mail it to me.
I'll check it out.
See what I think of it.
If I like it, I'll order it.
Yeah, right.
40 bucks?
Right.
I can get a lot of porn for 40 bucks.
Yeah, exactly.
Now, somehow we always end up on porn on this show.
God, we are so low, bro.
It's porn, man.
It always pleases the listeners.
Oh, and I have to say something about shit and a horse on every episode.
Otherwise, I can't get through the episode.
Um, we have...
You know what?
Let's jump...
I'm gonna jump to the McDonald's Wireless, since we did talk about Epiphany and Johnny Lightning's
article.
Um, I saw that they're opening some new locations for McDonald's Wireless.
Um, it was originally just in like five or six New York locations, but now it says they're
opening in Chicago, San Francisco, and Canada.
Canada, eh?
Hey.
So, um, I was poking around their site.
I was just, you know, kinda keeping myself up to date, see if they're ever gonna come anywhere
near me, and being the nosy ass I am, I started digging through their site, and they're wide
open to directory transversal in some circumstances.
Um, and others, they default to whatever the previous page you were looking at, which is
interesting, but basically, um, dug through some of their files, and nothing fancy, but
their cascading style sheets, their CSS, um, the Shockwave files, the Shockwave animations
that they used on a lot of those things.
I could just see the files and download them individually if I wanted to.
Nothing fancy, not a whole lot of damage I can do, but I did think how funny it would
be that these SWF, the Shockwave, um, animations, how funny it would be if I put on like the goat
sex picture or some disgusting thing and uploaded it back up to McDonaldsWireless.com so that
everybody could, uh, enjoy that.
Oh, yeah.
But I didn't try anything, and I, hopefully they've got security to stop that.
I didn't, I didn't try.
I didn't test it to see.
I assumed they would.
I was just browsing, like I said.
But I thought that might be kind of funny if we were to upload or, or just give them
this god-awful color scheme like purple and yellow and orange and green polka dots and
just a real fucked up, look like, it'll look like Ronald McDonald had sex with Marilyn
Manson.
It'd be this just fucked up color scheme and, uh, we could do all kinds of sexual positions
with Grimace and Mayor McCheese and could have been, could have been good stuff.
Jesus, you've thought a lot about that.
Yeah.
Actually, I just made it up on the spur of the moment.
I'm, I'm pretty good at directing porn movies.
I just, you know, I just want to throw that out there for everyone.
And there's porn coming soon.
Yeah, I missed, I missed my calling in life.
Um, and speaking of, well, no, okay, we won't go there.
Um, another thing that I did this week was, well, first of all, yeah, I guess this is kind
of speaking of porn since the majority of spam is porn.
Well, I don't know about the majority, but a lot of it.
Um, we've been kind of watching lately and commenting on how the spam has been going and
how the filtering has been going is getting better, getting worse.
Um, I noticed a new trick that's been going on lately in Hotmail.
Um, the filters, I guess, are very reliant or dependent on English words, English dictionary,
actual strings that it can look for.
So, I'm noticing what a lot of these spammers are doing, and this is not necessarily new.
Um, they used to put in, like, um, I'll make up an example on top of my head, um, Viagra.
That's one I see a lot.
Viagra ads.
If you seize the word Viagra in your email, it knows that it's more than likely spam and
it will filter it out.
So, a long time ago, what they started doing was putting in V dot A dot A, you know, and
they put a period in between.
People reading it will still see the word, of course.
You know, we can see the letters.
We don't care if there's a period there.
We're not a machine.
We can, we can adapt.
We can see what it's showing us.
A machine, earlier, early the filters would probably get fooled by that.
So, they become more sophisticated, obviously, and the spammers are starting to, um, change
it even more so.
So, it's not just periods.
They're using a lot of special characters.
They're using a lot of, I've, I've seen a lot of elite speak, to be honest with you.
I've seen a lot of elite speak on, uh, in the, in the strings trying to, and not only
trying, some of it does get through, so it must be working.
Um, but it reminds me of, if you've ever been to, um, some forums or, I don't know,
I can't think of a site.
Oh, like if you go to look up somebody's, um, registration information, um, a lot of
spammers will go to those sites and try to harvest email addresses of people who have
registered websites and stuff like that.
Well, to prevent that, they put up a little randomly created JPEG or GIF or whatever of
a string of numbers or letters, and it makes you type them in to confirm that you are a
human being reading what you see on the screen and interpreting it.
It will twist the numbers up, it'll do them in different colors, so that a spam bot will
not be able to interpret what it sees on there because the differentiation is too much for
it to handle.
But the human eye can read it and decipher what it really says.
So that's kind of what's going on with these emails.
I get something that says V, comma, I, hyphen, uh, tilde, A, you know, they throw in a bunch
of random characters in there so that it throws off the filtering.
Because, and if anybody wants to read, uh, God, how long ago was it that I wrote the
EliteSpeak article?
At the very beginning of that, I mentioned that that's one of the reasons EliteSpeak
came about, was to get around filters that were trying to keep out hacking topics.
So, we realized that it was an adaptive language.
As long as you keep changing it, you can keep fooling those filters almost indefinitely.
And that's what's going on here with these spammers.
All they've got to do is keep twisting it up because every time you add one of these things
to your filter dictionary, for lack of a better term, and they're not that simple that they're
just a dictionary, don't get me wrong.
But the more you try to stop it, the more they can adapt and make these polymorphic spam messages
and spam headers, I guess I should say, subject lines that will get by.
So, I've noticed in the past two weeks, I would say, a huge rise in stuff like that.
Do you have a problem with spam with your main email address?
You know, I've been, a lot of people have asked me this because they always complain about spam
and I hate saying this because I know one of these days it's going to jinx me.
But I had an email account a while back that I would get about 300 to 350 spams a day.
It was ridiculous.
So, I changed my email address and I actually did sign up a couple places with it.
And now I get about one spam probably every three or four days.
That's it.
Man.
You know, on my work account, I get probably a hundred a day.
Yeah.
A hundred.
Now, majority of those, I have a plug-in that will filter most of that out.
Not all of it, but most of it.
So, that helps.
But, yeah, I get just a phenomenal amount.
And, obviously, on my Hotmail account.
I mean, today on my Hotmail account, I probably got, oh, I would estimate 15 to 20 each day on my Hotmail account.
And out of that 15 or 20, 10 are probably, whoops, what was that?
10 were probably filtered out.
So, you know, they're still coming.
They're still not getting all filtered.
But, you know, we went into this ad infinitum on a previous episode, so we won't harp on that too much.
Let's talk about a project that you've been working on for a while that I finally got around to testing here in the last few weeks.
And this is something we've been working on for quite a while.
We started it a long time ago.
We're just now bringing it up on the air.
And that is the Freak Toys, which is something that, basically, you wrote.
We talked about it, and we worked out some ideas for it.
But, basically, this was your baby.
You wrote this.
And why don't you tell, briefly, again, we can't go into too much detail on it,
but why don't you just explain what it is and what technology it's based on, et cetera?
Sure.
Yeah, I got the idea one day that I wanted to start writing for my phone.
I realized it had J2ME, so I figured I'd give it a shot.
And I was really interested in starting a pay phone database.
And I was always, you know, I'd always get pay phone numbers.
I'd always write them down, and I'd always lose them.
So I decided to first write an application where I could just enter a pay phone number, submit it,
have it go to my computer at home, and sit in a MySQL database.
But, of course, like any project, it exploded, and I was like, oh, I need to add this, I need to add that.
And it just got out of hand, and now it does reverse phone lookups.
It does...
That's my personal favorite.
Yeah, it does NPA lookups, NPA NXX lookups, and it'll actually, there's a new feature just added in the last version of it
that will tell you what the meaning of an ANII, which is the identification information or something like that,
the two digits in front of your number when you call an ANI number.
Usually it'll say, you know, 00, and then your phone number.
Those two numbers, you enter them into this program, and it'll tell you 00 means that you have a POTS line,
or 70 means it's a pay phone line, or 27 means it's a smart phone or something like that.
So, basically, it's a bunch of information that I got from telecodata.us and a bunch of other sites.
Put them all together, put them on the phone, added in a little bit of network access so it can hit my machine at home for data that wouldn't fit on the phone,
like the NPA NXX lookups, and now I got a nice little toy to walk around and do some freaking with.
Yeah, very, very cool. I've been using it quite a bit.
And yeah, like you said, one of the first problems I had was the size of it.
You know, getting it on the phone, I had to delete a lot of stuff to get it to fit on my Motorola T720i.
Now, this can be used by anybody whose phone supports J2ME. Is that a true statement?
Right, yeah. J2ME, I used the first standard, CLDC 1.0 and MIDP 1.0, which are the very baseline J2ME standards.
So, this will actually, even if you have a BlackBerry or you have some other type of cell phone that I've never even seen before,
color display black and white, it should all work, no problem.
Cool, very cool. Now, this is still a work in progress. It's working. It is absolutely working, no doubt about that.
I've seen that myself. But we do, we're still trying to add a couple more features.
Are we still going to try to go forward with some of those, or do we want to call this a beta or an alpha, or...?
I'll definitely, I'll call this a beta for now, because it's got enough functionality to be usable.
I agree.
A couple extra features that I want to add, but...
Well, we'll save those for a surprise for later upgrades.
But what we'll do is we'll put this on the show notes, Hack and Slash will put this on,
and we'll put a link to it for people who want to download it and check it out.
That's good.
And...
What, now...
First of all, I don't know, I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but did you go out, you mentioned payphones.
I actually got a couple more numbers for Project Walmart Freedom than I need to send to Duel.
Did you get...
Were you able to get any payphone numbers for Project Walmart Freedom, or...?
No, I don't even know where there is a Walmart around me.
Oh, you've got to be kidding me.
There's Walmarts everywhere.
No, we have Super K or one of these other stupid things, but no Walmart.
No Walmart.
Oh, man.
Super K sucks.
Yeah, tell me about it.
Super K is the suck.
Yeah, seriously.
First.
Yeah, they...
Most of those...
Man, Kmart was in bad trouble, man.
Kmart closed so many stores and just...
Oh, man.
That's...
Boy, that's very strange.
I really have never heard of anybody who didn't have a Walmart somewhere.
I mean, I'm sure there's one fairly nearby, but there's none convenient to you is what you're saying.
There's none that I would drive by and notice, but who knows, maybe this Super K turned into a Walmart or something.
Ah, who knows.
But, hey, you're not missing out on anything, trust me.
I'm not too worried about it.
But, yeah, Project Walmart Freedom, I know, is ongoing projects.
So, even though I've already sent in some submissions in the past, and I know he's already gathered this all together,
and I think it's in the process of being published somewhere, I'm still, every time I get the chance,
I'm going to write a couple of these numbers down, got this application in the phone that will help me do that,
or, you know, scribbling down on a piece of paper, whatever you have to do, that is still ongoing.
And, you know, I did something...
I was doing some research this week also on another topic.
You know, this has turned out to be a really good show because we haven't even gone too much into news items or stuff.
There's been so much going on this week to talk about.
I actually was doing some research on the Interzone Conference, Interzone Convention,
and I mentioned on RFA, I think it was 59, I have in my notes here,
I think it was episode 59 that I originally discussed the problem that a couple of people had at Interzone.
These two hackers, these two young men, were going to give a presentation on Blackboard,
which was, which is, I should say, a software package, which is a system that a lot of universities use.
Their particular installation was using it as like a centralized, I won't say credit card,
magnetic card, like a local ID where you could put credit, debit cards on it,
you could put using inventing machines and washing machines and things like that.
And they found that it was very, very, very insecure.
So they were going to give a presentation on this at Interzone, the last Interzone Conference,
and they were stopped, they were given court order and given a cease and desist,
they were not able to present this topic on a court order of something that wasn't proved,
just, you know, out of the blue, just, hey, you're not allowed to talk about that,
which I didn't think was cool.
And if you want to go back and listen to that, it's RFA 59.
Well, I was doing a little bit more research to see what had happened since then,
see if anything had come out of it.
Long story short, they have settled this, settled that case somewhat, kind of, sort of,
to get themselves out of trouble.
They've settled and basically agreed not to talk about Blackboard, period.
That's the agreement.
The texts have been taken down.
Obviously, you can still find them.
You know, they're out there if you want to look hard enough to find them.
And maybe I will post those up as well.
There's nothing stopping me from doing it.
I don't have anything against me to stop me from putting up public information.
So, while I was doing research on this, I went to their site and I, interestingly enough,
they posted the emails and the responses from the people at Blackboard
and from the lawyers and stuff like that.
And it's kind of interesting to read how they treat people
and how they talk about the situation and how they word things.
And they actually sent an email attachment that was a Microsoft Word document
explaining the settlement details.
So, I downloaded this from their site and I assume it's still up.
I haven't been there in about a week now.
The Microsoft Word document.
See, Microsoft Word and Microsoft products in general are so over-engineered
that it's scary, it's pathetic.
They put all these features and all these extra bonuses and stuff in there
and they're enabled by default.
That's really where a lot of their security issues come from, but I digress.
One of these things that Microsoft Word has is the ability to put, for lack of a better term,
post-it notes into your document.
So, this document, I looked and sure enough, there was a little comment.
It's an editing tool.
If you write a document with a bunch of different people,
you can start off with the base introduction version
and you pass it around and everybody can put a little post-it saying,
I think you should add this line here, I think you should change that line there.
Well, there was an interesting comment in this document from the person at Blackboard.
I don't know if I...
Would I be crossing a line to mention the name?
I mean, I guess this is public out there and the name is on the document.
It's public, I say go for it.
Go for it?
Yeah, I mean, the name is known anyway.
If you just do a little research, you'll see where it comes from.
But basically, the document has a little comment in there.
The author listed on the comment is M. Stanton.
M-S-T-A-N-T-O-N, who is basically the person that's pushing this against them from Blackboard.
And the note says, quote, and it's pointing to the first line of the text.
And basically, this is the settlement text saying, this is what we want you to do, this is what you have to do.
And there's an incriminating comment in there that says, quote,
This gets us nowhere.
We are airing our dirty laundry and this supports the notion that we've picked on two kids.
We claim a bunch of things and they deny them.
Now, this is a comment he has embedded in there.
They know damn good and well what they're doing.
They know that they're not completely in the right on this situation.
Putting a comment like there and then making the mistake of leaving it there for someone like me is definitely not cool.
Whoops.
Yeah.
Uh-oh.
I wonder if they're going to call now.
I hope I don't.
Maybe I shouldn't have put this on the air.
I hope they don't contact Rocket at Inner Zone and raise hell for me bringing this up on the air.
But, hey, they sent it.
This is part of their settlement and if they're too dumb to take it out, then, you know, that's all on them.
As a matter of fact, I don't know when the last time I did this, but I'm going to give him the fuck nut of the month award for making this stupid mistake.
M. Stanton, congratulations, my friend.
You're the fuck nut of the month.
Excellent.
So, I also, once I found that, I said it really nosing around.
Windows XP works very closely with Microsoft Office, of course, integration, the word.
There are a lot more properties on files now that you can look at.
It's not just archive, hidden, read-only, et cetera.
There's a lot more options and properties that you can have on a file.
I also reported to Rocket, which is, he's the coordinator of Inner Zone Convention.
I reported to him some information that was in there, just for the sake, and it's nothing, you know, as bad as the comment that was in there, but just the information of who the author of the document was, what time and date it was created and edited and stuff like that.
And it's labeled Exhibit D.
That's the title.
I thought that was kind of funny, like some kind of court, you know.
Exhibit D. is what that settlement paper is called.
Anyway, I reported this to him, and he mentioned, he did reply back to me, said thanks, and I mentioned to him I was going to bring it up on the air, so I'm sure he knows that we're talking about it.
But I guess the moral of the story here is don't send out information.
You know what?
Send out ASCII text.
It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Don't send out all this extra stuff.
And for God's sake, don't make comments like that.
I mean, I guess we want to get more global.
Don't do stupid shit like this in the first place.
Let the guys talk.
Secure your software and don't make a, you know, fix it yourself.
Don't blame somebody else and try to cover it.
Yeah, maybe these kids will even end up countersuing these guys and say, you know, they knew that this was all their fault from the get-go, you know.
Yeah, and that's basically what I said in the email to him.
I revealed this information.
I said, you know, I don't, it's not super secret information per se.
It's just that let's make sure, look at the date and time on this.
If they're going to claim, no, no, we didn't say that on that date.
We didn't say that until three days later.
Look at the time stamps.
Every time you send this stuff, you're time stamping, you're dating it.
Anything digital cannot be undone.
It is there for eternity.
It can be tagged.
It's dated.
It can be, it's kept for posterity forever.
You can debate and argue, you know, oh, I didn't call you at that time.
I didn't call you this, you know, I called you Saturday.
I didn't call you Sunday.
You can debate a lot of that because you don't have a lot of control over it.
The phone company, of course, in their digital equipment would have logs of everything.
But in the digital age, everything is logged.
Everything can be found and everything can be uncovered.
So anyway, go to Interzone.
Go check it out.
Go Google for it.
A lot of information on the Blackboard presentation and the presentation itself, which I have looked at.
And I'm familiar with Blackboard.
That's why I was doing this research to begin with because I found it interesting.
And go check it out and go check the site out.
Hopefully that's another conference I'd like to get to.
H2K4, whatever it ends up being called.
But I'd like to definitely get to Interzone.
It'll be next year before they have another one.
But definitely want to check that out.
Now, we would be regressed.
We would be regrettable.
What's the word I'm looking for here?
We would regret it if.
We didn't mention.
We're running low on time.
We would regret it if we didn't mention the SoBig virus.
That's really the news of the week.
SoBig, as in a big pain in my ass is basically what the SoBig virus was.
I've gotten more fucking emails with PIF attachments.
PIF is so Windows 3.1.
Please.
Come on now.
Yeah, these people need to be educated about this type of stuff already.
I mean, how many years has this crap been going on with Microsoft products and email attachments?
Yeah, but people still click on things.
Oh, PIF file.
That sounds cool.
And it really amazes me.
Honestly, we're two intelligent people talking here.
And I think to myself, is anybody going to click on something that they don't know what it is?
And sure enough, they fucking still do.
Yeah, all the time.
Here's the information you requested.
Click here.
Blam!
They click right on it.
They've requested this information from G742-6Q3 at Hotmail.com.
Come on.
And the thing is, there's really no escape.
I figured, ah, you know, I'm using Linux and Evolution.
It's not going to bother me.
Yeah.
Well, when everybody else in your office gets hit by it and it starts messing up your network
and you can't do anything because there's so much traffic from all these viruses that get stuck on people's Windows machines, you know, you're dead too.
Yeah, and that's a very good point is even if you are immune, so to speak, to the virus, you're not necessarily immune to the effects of the virus.
Exactly.
You know, you have one Linux box in an office of 20 Microsoft boxes.
They get hit and your Linux box is just as dead now because you can't communicate.
No traffic is getting out.
So you may not have gotten hit.
You may not be vulnerable to it.
But guess what?
You're still SOL.
Microsoft is still ruining your life.
Yeah, well, I'm sure Palladium will solve all that, right?
Oh, yeah, definitely.
You, you know what, I'm not going to skip.
I was going to talk a little bit about single sign-on, but I'm going to save that because that could really get into a long conversation.
So I'm going to save that.
I am going to probably, when we're done recording, I'm going to jump on and install this stupid Sun 1 Studio.
Uh-oh.
Because you sent me the code for that, for the DDP Freak tools, and I want to look at it.
I want to go through some of the stuff on there.
So at work, I got a copy of it and installed it at work.
I brought it home.
I have not installed it at home.
I will do that in a few minutes.
But, you know, installing it at work was such a, I almost did it again, such a freaking headache.
I'm trying to control my language for the kiddies out there.
You know, I'm trying to be wholesome.
It's all for the kids.
Yeah, I'll never do it, but I'm trying.
I installed this at work.
At least I think I did.
It is such a freaking headache and getting it configured and set up and installing all the runtime lines.
And my God, this thing is the biggest piece of crap since Forte.
I hated it when it was Forte, and I hate it now.
Yeah, and it takes...
Now, what did you use to develop the Freak tools?
I used Sun One Studio, and it eats 150, 200 megabytes of RAM or something like that for my application that's, you know, 50K.
Yeah.
It's unbelievable.
And I know what you say.
I tried to use Forte once before.
They had a couple of products.
I figured, oh, I'll give it a shot.
But that stuff was garbage, too.
So, Sun One Studio looked nice, but it ended up being pretty much the same old crap.
And what you're going to love even more is that Sun One Studio 4 Update 1 is the last version of Sun One.
And do you know why?
Why is that?
Because Sun recommends that if you want a free version, that you use Forte.
Oh, for God's sake.
Oh, jeez.
There's no escape.
There is no escape.
So if our vendors just want to screw you.
Yeah.
And you know, but the bad thing that's going to come of this because basically this is their
inability to deliver.
This is their technology.
This is their product.
And they can't deliver a tool that's useful and reasonable to use to develop.
And that's, unfortunately, going to push people to J++ and C Sharp and C++.
You know, it's going to push people to the .NET architecture because, frankly, it's a better programming environment as far as ease of use anyway.
Yeah, definitely.
I'll agree with that.
You know, the editor, I use their editor a lot to look at my code and then cut and paste it out somewhere else, you know.
But it's going to push people to use this other technology and then they're going to whine and complain about Microsoft having a monopoly.
You know, I'm not even going to go into that.
Let's just, I'm going to just leave that alone.
I, we've, we've had a full show.
I think this has been a very good show.
Again, not theory.
Thank you for being on.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Shout outs.
You know, I got, let's see, 2,600 meetings coming up this week.
So let's remind everybody, if you're going, go check out your 2,600 meeting.
Do you have anybody you want to shout out to?
Yeah, I want to give shout outs to Hacksaw, 1-4-K-4, Ashiant, and the One True Pope.
Yep.
Big up, big up.
And, of course, everybody in the forums, they all know who they are.
Um, shout out to, um, Mute, who hopefully will be on next week.
Because, as everybody knows, school's starting back up.
So, you know, it's going to be a rough time for a lot of people coming up this month.
Um, as usual, you can email us, letters at binrev.com.
Um, should have that, uh, address.
Oh, I know what else I got to mention.
Big, big, fat, donkey dick shout out.
Damn it, I messed, I said a bad word.
Big, fat shout outs.
Well, maybe I shouldn't use donkey dick in a shout out.
Probably bad and good.
Big shout out, many props to Media Misfit.
Redesign of binrev.com is amazing.
Amazing.
I, I just absolutely love the look and feel of it.
We've been going back and forth in email a lot, kind of hammering it out.
He did all the work.
All his, give all the props to him.
I went in this past weekend and filled out all the rest of the code.
Um, kind of lined up a few other minor little things.
Some, um, navigation stuff.
And, as far as I know, the site is completely up and running now.
Everything has been replaced.
The ordering system, everything is new.
Show notes are up there now.
So, big, big shout outs to him for that.
I appreciate that a lot.
And, actually, maybe I need to get him on an episode one time, too.
Um, might have to work that out with him.
Um, so if you're listening, big shout outs to that.
And, um, is that it?
Any, do you have, you got your shouts?
Anybody else?
Um, tonight's closing music is going to be Mr. Royce.
Uh, so wet till you drop.
I think that's everybody.
Yeah, I think I'm good.
I think if we missed anybody, we'll get them next week.
Yep.
And, you know, next week, same hack time.
Same hack channel.
Peace out.
Thank you.