This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers
I see in binary, I speak source code
Step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you in a fag pose
In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho
Cause I'm riding the net in my six-fold
I was a dick with my 56
Now with my cable, I'm able to get that stable
On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo
On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero
In a flash, I'll screw you on burning dream packs
You need some ISO? Let me through my hard drive rifle
Our exchange you could never stifle
And a digital hug, you just caught the love bug
I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z
Your CG, it's all gonna be free
Whether we take it by force or we take it nicely
You feel that rattle in your bones when I tell you we just hacked out Jones
And NASDAQ, leave your fight on your back
Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack
This is dedicated to the hackers and the criminals
Serial code, source code, ISO, RAM, SIP, SIS
This is dedicated to the hackers and the crack
Welcome ladies and gentlemen, I am your big fat obnoxious host Stankdawg
And I am on the phone with our good friend Voodoo Hal as the co-host today
Say hello to the people Voodoo Hal
How's up guys in my very creative way
And we are coming to you, originally aired on February 24th, 2004
Hmm, that's kind of an interesting
02242004
That's, hmm, only three numbers in that stream
Anyway, we are going to
We only had a couple emails this time
But they were good ones
So, as usual
I guess I start off every show and say we're gonna jump into the email
So, this time we're gonna, let's see
We jump into the email, we dive into the email
Let's, um, I don't know
Fart into the email
What else can we do?
I don't know what else to do to the email
I guess let's, uh, wade into the email
There we go, that's a good one
Um, and our first email is from SubZero
Our good friend
Uh, and he says, quote
Uh, actually he's following up
First of all, I'll set this up
He's following up on our talk about port knocking
A couple of episodes ago
He says, I was talking to one of my friends
About the port knocking
That you were talking about on the show
And he brought up some interesting points
We talked about OSI standards
With it, there is never a guarantee
That packets will get there
And if they do, in the right order
If this were implemented
A person would have to continue to send packets
In sequence until they arrive
In the correct sequence
If you are dealing with this on a small
Or business internal network
It would almost be overkill
It could cause a worldwide priority of packets
In which a user could start sucking up
A lot of bandwidth
Am I totally off?
Or are these ideas reasonable?
Uh, yes, they're definitely reasonable
And something that we talked about before
Um, but to get a more authoritative answer
I went straight to the source
I went to a great source
Martin K.
From portknocking.org
The site we mentioned before
And I posed this question to him
And he was gracious enough
To give us a response
And his response is
That this question isn't a new one
But it's a very, very valid one
I don't know if I have an answer though
One of the limitations of port knocking
In its current incarnation
Include the packet order problem
In networks where the latency can be anticipated
It's probably good enough to send the packet
Spaced apart further than the latency time
That makes sense, I guess
Unfortunately, good enough
Isn't good enough for a production environment
In which port knocking is used
And relied upon
A number of potential extensions
Include packaging the knock
In packet as data payload
This is something implemented by doorman
Although this drastically changes the approach
No more knocking on ports
Data is still sent across a closed port
You have to delve deeper into the firewall
To extract the packet payload
Thus harder
But the packet order problem
Is mitigated
Thus easier
Best regards, Martin
So Martin K.
Thank you very much
And he's probably laughing
Because I'm calling him Martin K.
And he knows why
But yeah, that makes very good sense
It's a perfectly valid question
And personally
I didn't think about this
In terms of a production environment
I just thought of it as a neat idea
And something to put around
As kind of a game
A little secret
You know
To add this
Kind of a backdoor
Underground way
To access your own things
Your own stuff
Hook friends up
To be able to access your systems
Without, you know
Really going to a
Thinking it all the way through
To a production environment
If you actually wanted to implement this
As some form of security
There's a lot of other problems
In addition to this one
Mentioned here
And the workaround he talked about
To me
Isn't even port knocking anymore
I mean
Am I
Would you consider that port knocking
When you actually put the payload
Put it into a
The data into a separate payload packet
Not really
Not at that point
I don't think that's really
What I was thinking
Of port knocking at that point
That becomes
I don't know
Some other type of authentication
It's not really
I don't really know
It just
Kind of takes it
Into a different direction
In my eyes
The idea of port knocking
And that problem
Yes that is
Naturally associated with it
However
I don't know
That I would ever
Implement this
In a production environment
And I would be interested
And maybe Martin
Can follow up
And let me know this
If he listens
If there are any places
That he's aware of
And we don't have to name names
Of course
But are there places
That are implementing
Port knocking
As a production environment
Type of authentication
Or type of access
If there are any
Production environments
Businesses
Schools
Etc. etc.
That are actually using this
I had assumed
That it probably would not be
A. Because it's a fairly new
Recently popular
I should say
I don't know how new
But recently popular
Phenomenon
So that reason
As well as the fact
That to put anything
In a production environment
You really do your research
To make sure it's safe
And secure
Dependable
Reliable
And all of that
And I don't know
That it's been around
Long enough
To determine those things
Unless it's a Microsoft product
Well
Yeah
That's
Coming up later in the show
So
Thank you
Thank you to Sub-Zero
And to Martin
For that email
And response
I
I really
I think he said it
Really well
I think he
I think he explained it
Very well
I got another email
From Pixel Fiend
And I
You know what
It's kind of funny
I knew he was going to email
Because
He admits that
He's a Mac junkie
He's a Mac evangelist
I think is what he said
Jokingly of course
And he says
That he loved the Mac talk
Last episode
And he actually had a
Follow up on a comment
That Logan 5
Made
He says
Referring to Logan 5
He did mention
That mounted servers
Do not appear
On the desktop
By default
They don't
For some reason
That can be changed
Through the
Finder preferences
That can be changed
Through the
Finder preferences
Excuse me
Finder menu
Preferences
General tab
There's a checkbox
For showing mounted servers
On the desktop
Also
OSX does come
With cron built in
That's a question
That I actually
Brought up on the show
But like Logan 5
Said
There's no GUI
Front end
In the OS
Sure
Joe Blow
Won't know
How to use it
But cron
Works just great
And I have my doubts
As to whether
Joe Blow
Could use it
With a GUI
Either
Which is also
Probably true
So thank you
Thank you very much
For your Mac ideas
And comments
Pixel Fiend
We always welcome
Hearing from you
And for the listeners
There's a couple more
Mac tips
And some ideas
Of where this stuff
Is at
And how you can
Tweak it
And customize it
A little bit
So that's a
Very good thing
Now I know
You're not a Mac guy
But you know
You have some
Mac experience
What did
Have you had time
To listen to the
OSX episode yet
Somewhat yeah
And did you have
Anything to add
Or was there
Anything in there
That you thought
Was left out
Not really no
How much
Have you used
What is it
Not Jaguar
But Panther
Oh yeah
I've actually
I've owned
Probably seven
Or eight Macs now
And I mean
I'm slowly becoming
More of a Mac user
I have
Had an 800 megahertz
iBook as well
And the only thing
That I wanted to stress
I think you asked
Is it worth it
In terms of
You know
Going from Jaguar
Spending the money
On Panther
And it's definitely
Definitely worth it
They've
Why so
The whole project
Speed wise
Tremendously
It's night and day
At least for me
So it's not
You asked
What the slowest
Machine it would run on
I had it running on
You know
A 400 megahertz
Old tangerine
iMac
And it ran
Quite well
So the jump
From
From Jaguar
To Panther
Is not like
Just another
Service pack
Release
There is actually
Some meat
And something
Substantial
In there
To upgrade
Definitely
Performance wise
I mean
For me
It was night and day
Also
He kind of touched
On expose
A little bit
Expose is
You know
One of the
Coolest things
I've ever seen
And what
Explain
What is that
Exactly
Expose
Was the
Function he was
Talking about
On how
You can
Hit one button
Or one gesture
Depending on
How you've got it
Set up
To minimize
Not necessarily
Minimize all
Your windows
But size
Them all
As they
Size them
All
As you select
The one you
Want
And it will
Resize the
Full screen
And it's
One of the
Coolest things
And it
Doesn't really
At least for me
It wasn't
Apparently obvious
For a while
Until I started
Needing
Doing a lot of
Things that required
A lot of windows
Because normally
I don't
Normally I have
My term
And like
One other thing
Open
Possibly an
AIM client
Or an
iChat client
And I'm done
I mean
I'm happy with
The term
I'm good to go
Right
Well
At home
I'm like that
But at work
That would come
In really handy
Because I leave
A lot of
Different windows
Open
I use a lot
Of different
Type of editors
Several
SSH sessions
And telnet
Sessions
Of different
Different types
Of telnet
Sessions
That I don't
Want to close
Out
So that
Could be
Really handy
To me
But I'm
Not a
Mac guy
Freely admit
That and that's
Why I've been
Trying lately
To get one
Of those
What do they
Call it
Is it just
Called an
IMAX
See my
Terminology
I just want
One of the
IMAX
With the
Colors
That they
Had on the
Commercials
Years ago
I figure
Those are
About to be
Cheap by now
Yeah the
Color ones
Are just
IMAX
Like I bought
My 400
Megahertz
IMAX
For like
225
So they're
Not bad
At all
Yeah if I can
Get one for
A couple hundred
Bucks to play
With and get
Used to it
See if I like
It because I've
Heard great
Things about the
iBook
In theory
From looking at
Them and watching
People use them
And hearing
It sounds like
It's a great
Great machine
But I don't
Want to sink
That much
Into it
Until I get
Used to it
And understand
And see if I
Like it first
Yeah see I
Spent you know
A couple hundred
Bucks and bought
Two old
Power Macs
And two
Even older
Power Macs
Before the
G3s
But the two
G3s I bought
You know they
Were only two
33s
But just
The experience
Alone from that
Made me you know
Want to buy more
So we bought
The iMac
And then we
Bought the iBook
And just recently
Sold the iBook
So I can buy
A PowerBook
Well speaking
Of Mac
This is actually
A good segue
Into talking
About the
Distributed.net
Team
This is a
Housekeeping
I bring it up
Every once in a
While once every
Month or two
And it's very
Fitting to follow
Up on Pixel
Fiend's email
Because Pixel
Fiend is putting
Up mad mad
Numbers on the
Distributed
He's only been
On there for
Eight nine days
Less than two
Weeks a little
Over a week
And he's jumped
Halfway up the
List already
So those
Macs dude
Are crunching
Crunching
Some keys
Now why is it
That the Mac
Is crunching
Keys so much
Faster
Than an Intel
I mean I've
Got P4s
Running on it
You know
I don't have
You know
I guess a
64 bit processor
Might help some
But a P4
You would think
Would be
Competitive
But from what
I see
It's getting
It's ass
Handed to it
By these
These G4s
Well first
Of all
A 64 bit
Processor
Probably won't
Help you
Unless they
Decided to
Rewrite it
Using
Doing some
Creative things
But the
Reason on a
Mac can
Just easily
Blow away
An Intel
Box
Is because
The Intel
Box doesn't
Have what's
Called a
Rotation
Instruction
The Macs
Have you know
A lot of
Things added
To the
Architecture
That help
It in
Number
Crunching
Period
Same with
A lot of
Different risk
Based architectures
Which a
Mac is risk
It's a
PPC form
And basically
What that
Means is
When Intel
Has to do
These rotations
On the
Numbers
It's taking
You know
Five or
Six
And these
Are
The
Fiddle number
Here is
Arbitrary for
Me
I don't
Know how
Many
Instructions
It would
Take to
Do this
But what
You're
Looking at
Is
Hardware
Based
Rotation
Which would
Take one
Or two
Cycles
Maybe
More
I don't
Know
I would
Say one
Or two
Compared
To six
Or seven
Instructions
That have
To emulate
These rotations
Which that
Alone is a
Tremendous
Difference
Hmm
So but
Max also
Has this
Brilliant thing
Called Altevec
Which you
Guys can look
Up on
Google
It's really
Hard to
Explain
On a
Short amount
Of time
But it's
Basically
I'm sorry
What
Is a
Way of
Creating
Concurrent
Processing
On data
Without
Actually having
Multiple
Processes
It's
Absolutely
Brilliant
And I'm
Sorry
What was
That called
Again
It's called
Altevec
A
L
T
I
V
E
C
Basically
It's
128
Bit
Call it
A buffer
In this
Case
And that
I don't
Know if
Any of
You guys
Ever worked
On
Clustering
Type
Things
You
Have
Different
Types
Of
Data
And
Instructions
You
Have
Multiple
Data
Multiple
Instructions
Or
Multiple
Instructions
Multiple
Data
Or
That's
The
Same
Thing
But
This
Is
Basically
Multiple
Instruction
Or
Single
Instruction
Multiple
Data
Which
Means
It
Can
As
Long
As
You
Can
Line
Up
The
Data
You
Want
To
Work
With
In
A
Single
Memory
Space
It
Can
Do
The
Same
Instructions
On
The
Same
On
This
Array
And
It
Is
120
So
You
Can
Get
16
Bytes
Into
This
Array
So
If
You
Have
A
16
Byte
Or
16
Character
Array
That
You
Wanting
To
Do
Manipulations
On
Using
The
Alphavac
Engine
You
Can
Do
The
Manipulations
On
That
Single
Array
At
The
Exact
Same
Time
And
That
Is
The
Best
Case
Scenario
Obviously
You
Could
Do
It
On
32
Bit
And
Pieces
Which
In
That
Case
There
Were
Before
You
Could
Do
It
On
The
Same
Time
So
That
Is
One
Thing
That
Makes
Alphazek
Extremely
Fast
And
Makes
The
G4
Work
Really
Well
Yeah
Obviously
Because
It's
Just
Blowing
Up
But
Also
The
Team
In
General
Is
Blowing
Up
And
We
Got
39
Members
And
I
Kind
Of
Thought
We
Hit
A
Peak
Hit
A
Point
Where
We
Were
Just
Couple
Weeks
And
We're
Still
Climbing
In
The
Rankings
Man
We're
Still
Moving
Up
We're
Up
To
39
People
And
Everybody
Putting
In
I
Keep
Saying
It
Everybody
Put
In
A
Little
Bit
And
It
Adds
Up
And
It
Really
Is
This
Is
A
Long
Term
Project
So
It
Doesn't
Matter
If
You
Put
Up
Big
Numbers
Every
Day
Or
One
Day
Of
Course
It
Helps
Obviously
But
Putting
Up
A
Few
Numbers
Every
Day
Or
Every
Other
Day
Or
Even
Once
A
Week
You
Know
Even
Just
Whenever
They
Get
Done
Let
It
Upload
The
Only
Thing
Is
Make
Sure
You
Go
There
In
The
Forums
We
Have
A
Distributed
.net
Forum
That
Explains
How
To
Get
This
Client
And
Everything
Set
Up
And
I
Know
Most
People
Can
Do
That
On
Their
Own
But
There
Are
Two
Projects
Two
Main
Projects
That
Are
Open
And
One
Of
Them
Is
The
RC5
Project
And
That
Is
The
One
That
We
Are
Taking
Part
In
There
Is
Also
An
OGR
Project
Which
Is
Cool
That
Fine
And
Dandy
And
Everything
But
Any
By
Default
They
Are
Both
Turned
On
And
What
It
Will
Do
Is
Run
Through
The
RC5
Keys
That
It
Needs
Cracked
Then
It
Will
Run
Through
Some
OGR
Keys
So
You
Need
To
Disable
That
So
That
What
Happens
Is
Once
It
Finishes
All
It
RC5
It
Will
Grab
More
If
You
Don't
Disable
That
By
Default
It
Is
Working
On
Two
Projects
And
When
It
Finishes
One
It
Starts
On
A
Whole
Different
Project
And
It
May
Take
It
A
Week
To
Crunch
On
And
Make
Sure
You
Got
It
Not
Only
Running
But
Running
Efficiently
So
That's
All
For
That
And
I
Won't
Bug
Anybody
About
That
For
A
Couple
More
Weeks
Now
We're
Going
To
Move
Into
The
Show
And
Tell
Portion
Of
The
Show
As
I
Like
To
Call
It
Even
Though
I
Can't
Show
Anything
To
The
Listeners
I
Can
Tell
Them
What
We've
Been
Working
On
Recently
And
I
Was
Out
Of
Town
This
Weekend
As
Voodoo
How
Knows
Because
He
Heard
All
The
Background
Noise
From
Where
I
Was
And
While
I
Was
Out
I
Was
Just
Basically
Doing
Some
Retail
Hacking
Which
Is
I
Don't
Know
It's
Almost
Subconscious
Now
I
Just
Do
It
Everywhere
I
Go
Anyway
I
Posted
Something
In
The
Forms
That
I
Was
At
The
UPS
Office
And
They
Had
Some
Systems
There
Didn't
Have
A
Whole
Lot
Of
Time
To
Play
With
Them
But
I
Played
With
Them
Just
To
See
What
They
Were
Just
Curiosity
Factor
To
See
What
They're
Running
And
What
They're
Doing
I
Was
Up
In
Orlando
Florida
For
The
Weekend
And
In
The
Hotel
Room
There
I
Guess
It's
Not
Really
Retail
Hacking
I
Guess
It's
A
Hotel
But
I
Guess
It
Kind
Of
I
Don't
Know
If
It
Classifies
Or
Not
But
Anyway
Did
A
Little
Some
Checking
Out
Some
Information
In
The
Hotel
Room
Wrote
Down
Some
Numbers
And
Some
Information
I
Don't
Quite
Want
To
Reveal
Yet
And
Probably
Even
For
Hackers
It's
Probably
Boring
But
Some
Research
I
Want
To
Do
Some
Follow
Up
Stuff
On
Basically
The
Hotels
On
Demand
System
So
I
Going
To
Do
A
Research
On
That
I
Just
Today
As A
Matter
Of
Fact
Got
In
An
Order
I
Had
Put
In
With
Black
Listed
411
Magazine
Which
I
Think
We've
Talked
About
On
The
Show
Before
But
If
Not
Here
We
Go
Black
Listed
411
Was
A
Hacker
Magazine
That
Came
Out
I
Don't
Know
When
They
Officially
Started
But
I
Remember
Seeing
Them
Around
95
96
Somewhere
In
That
Range
And
At
That
Point
They
Were
Let's
See
Actually
I
Look
At
One
I
Have
Right
Now
It's
January
95
Volume
2
Issue
1
So
I
Guess
There
Was
A
Volume
1
One
Year
Earlier
So
I
Guess
They
Must
Have
Started
94
Possibly
93
I
Don't
Know
What
Their
Numbering
Scheme
Is
But
Anyway
This
Was
A
Magazine
It's
The
Same
Format
It's
2600
In
Binary
Revolution
I
Think
The
Same
Company
I
Put
That
Out
But
I
Don't
Think
It
Lasted
Very
Long
And
Actually
Blacklisted
I
Think
Didn't
Last
Too
Awful
Long
See
The
Last
Issue
That
I
Can
Figure
Out
Was
98
And
Then
They
Disappeared
From
Bookshelves
Do
You
Have
Any
Information
To
The
Contrary
No
I
Have
Actually
Never
Even
Heard
Of
Them
Oh
Really
Yeah
They
Were
Similar
Format
To
2600
All
From
What
I
Remember
They
Were
All
Black
And
White
Covers
And
All
Black
And
White
Interior
When
Thud
The
Hackers
Underground
Digest
Which
I
Think
Was
Made
By
Them
That
I
Remember
Having
Color
Covers
But
At
Least
The
I
Think
I
Have
Two
Of
Those
Two
Issues
Of
That
And
I
Remember
That
Had
Color
Covers
But
I
Think
Blacklisted
I
Don't
Think
They
Ever
Started
With
Color
Until
Apparently
Recently
They
Have
Come
Back
Out
And
You
Know
What
Forgive
Me
I
Did
Not
Write
Down
The
URL
But
I
Think
It's
Blacklisted
Mag
Dot
Net
But
I
Wouldn't
Square
By
That
I'll
Post
In
The
Show
Notes
The
Site
To
Blacklisted
They
Are
Another
Hacking
Zine
And
Apparently
They're
Coming
Back
Around
Coming
I
Don't
If
I
Should
Say
Back
In
Business
But
They're
Releasing
Hacking
Magazines
Again
So
I
Ordered
Some
Of
The
Back
Issues
That
I
Was
Missing
And
Got
Them
Pretty
Quickly
I
Didn't
Get
The
Current
Issue
They
Said
They
Were
Out
Of
Them
Right
Now
Temporarily
And
They're
Having
More
Printed
So
I
Don't
Know
What
Their
Current
Issues
Their
Second
Incarnation
If
They're
Any
Good
Or
What
The
Content
Is
Like
But
If
And
When
I
Get
It
I
Will
Read
It
And
Review
It
And
Talk
About
It
On
The
Show
And
If
Any
Of
The
Listeners
Have
It
Or
Wanted
To
Make
Comments
About
It
By
All
Means
Email
Us
Radio
At
Binrev
Dot
Com
In
Case
You
Don't
Know
It
By
Now
This
Is
Blacklisted
411
Right
It's
Blacklisted
411
Magazine
The
URL
Is
www.blacklisted411.net
Dot
Okay
Blacklisted411.net
And
You
They've
Done
This
Before
Again
They've
Like I
Said
They
Were
Out
Before
They
Were
Carried
In
I
Don't
Know
Which
Chains
But
They
Were
Carried
In
Major
Bookstore
Chains
I
Remember
Seeing
It
Next
To
2600
Magazines
So
They
Have
The
Connections
And
They
Are
Out
There
So
You
Might
Be
Able
To
Find
Those
In
Your
Local
Bookstore
In
The
Magazine
Section
So
Keep
An
Eye
Out
For
It
But
If
Not
I
Think
You
Can
Order
Online
As
Well
I'm
Not
Sure
So
I
Just
Got
Those
Today
And
I
Don't
Know
I'm
Actually
Kind
Of
Curious
I'm
Going
To
Go
Back
And
Read
These
From
95
96
And
See
What
Kind
Of
Information
Is
In
There
It's
Probably
Outdated
But
You
Never
Know
You
May
Find
Something
In
There
That's
If
Nothing
Else
Nostalgic
If
Nothing
Else
So
That's
What
I'm
Going
To
Be
Doing
Over
The
Next
Few
Days
And
I
Guess
That's
It
For
Me
Nothing
Super
Duper
Exciting
Like
You
Know
Setting
Up
A
Counter
Strike
Server
Nice
Segway
There
You
Go
Yep
That's
Basically
What
I'm
That's
Pretty
Much
All
I've
Done
Oh
No
It's
Not
Exciting
Okay
Yeah
Whatever
We're
Setting
Up
A
Dedicated
Counter
Strike
Server
As
Some
You
Saw
On
The
For
Right
Now
It's
Hosted
On
A
Wapping
Duel
333
But
Soon
We'll
Be
On
Duel
733
And
Also
Been
Working
On
The
DDP
Hack
Radio
Server
Hopefully
We'll
Have
That
Done
Soon
And
Going
To
Thanks
Exacting
Specifications
Exacting
Because
Damn
I
Couldn't
Get
That
Stupid
Plug
In
I
Shouldn't
Say
Plug
In
Whatever
You
Know
What
Whatever
Not
Even
Worth
Talking
Into
All
I'm
Saying
Is
Shoutcast
Sucks
Yes
I
Know
Shoutcast
Worked
It
Wasn't
Shoutcast
Sucks
But
I'm
Still
Saying
Shoutcast
Sucks
I'm
Not
Impressed
I
I'm
I가
I'm
Pretty bad. He's pretty good. Somebody else was there and he's not a forum member that I know of. I can't remember his name off the top of my head. If somebody wants to email me that name, I'll post as a second place person. I think he said he was friends with somebody.
How many people were on totally playing at any given time?
I think at most at once we had eight or so. I at least had some horrific technical problems. It's funny. I felt like I was whining the whole time. The guys at Data Machine were nice enough to host us. Completely appreciative to those guys. We had to move the server because the ping times were a little bit low.
Obviously, they have other things going on. I completely understand and want to say thanks to those guys. We moved it and I decided to host it here. From the start, I just knew things were going bad because my machine in the middle of the game, I would stop rendering polygons completely and just render the interface. I was completely blind. Then all of a sudden, my machine would just restart a couple minutes later.
No biggie. That one happened once or twice, but no big deal. What really sucked is in the middle of a round, my monitor starts going fuzzy and I hear this loud pop. All of a sudden, my monitor is gone.
Oh, not cool.
I was plagued with technical problems the whole time, which doesn't mean that's why I sucked, but it's a good reason, I suppose. Thanks, everybody, for showing up for that. Hopefully, we can do that more often.
Well, see, and that was just kind of an impromptu thing. You and I talked about it on the phone one day and thought it might be a neat thing. Like I said, I was out of town, unfortunately, and I couldn't play, but hopefully, I'll get on next time and hand out some whoop ass.
But, yeah, watch. I talk shit and then I'll get my ass handed to me. Oh, man, I just used more bad words in the last three seconds than I have in the last three months.
Man, how did that happen? That wasn't cool. Oh, man. I blew it. Oh, well, I guess we must continue.
We're talking about Counter-Strike and see where we're staying good.
Oh, man, dude, while I'm playing Counter-Strike, and I think I've said this on the show before, I used to play years back when I first found it.
I completely got addicted to it, and then I finally just had too many other things going on, mostly with the site and getting projects that I'm working on.
So I finally fell into this pattern. We have kind of a LAN club at the university, and we meet every Friday evening after work and play for a few hours every Friday,
and I kind of have been doing that pattern for a few months. So I don't play regularly. I'm not a total gaming, you know, go out and play every day, every night when I get home.
I know there's people out there that just completely own the game, and some of the guys at the LAN party are like that.
I mean, they just completely own everybody, headshots all the time. It's completely in a closed environment, so there's no hacks, there's no cheats, there's no whatever you want to call them.
I hate it when people call them hacks. They're cheats, damn it. There's no cheats installed. These people are just that good.
And I still, even though it's how many years old, I still love playing this game. It's a great game.
And now that I see there's interest out there, Voodoo Hal and I have been talking about how can we set this up regularly.
You know, can we, we gotta, what about a bandwidth analysis?
We gotta decide if we've got the bandwidth between us somewhere that we can leave this up 24-7.
Anyway, we won't go into the details here on the show, but a possibility of leaving that up and maintaining some statistics and some stuff like that is a fun diversion.
It's not really a hacking project, but a fun project.
Which I think would be cool. I would use it.
And, maybe I actually, actually teach Voodoo Hal how to play.
Ha ha ha ha.
Ha ha ha.
Oh, well, is there anything else you wanted to bring up?
I don't know, I think that's it.
Besides, uh, calculus and, and all the high math and super science and nanotechnology and whatever the hell else you're working on.
Yeah, the pain in my ass, no, we'll leave that alone. I might start cussing myself.
Ha ha ha ha.
Yeah, I know that song.
Uh, well, I guess our main topic this week has to be, has to be Microsoft's source code being leaked to the internet.
It has to be. I mean, how can we not address this topic?
Right.
Um, I guess the, I don't know, it's just so easy.
You know, I don't even know how to, it's, it's, it's already, it's already known.
Most of the listeners know.
Um, I guess probably it'd be easy if I just read some of this verbatim from the stories here and maybe chime in if you, are you still there?
Are you there?
I think Voodoo Howl just dropped off on us.
Ha ha ha ha.
Okay, well, apparently his cell phone just took a crap, but we're going to keep right on rolling with the Microsoft source code.
This beep is me hanging up on Voodoo Howl, and hopefully he'll call back in a second if he can get to another phone.
Um, but, as I mentioned earlier, Microsoft source code has been leaked to the internet, and I'm just going to read some of this verbatim to you.
Again, most people have seen and heard of this, but, in an effort to protect its, and this is from InfoWorld, which is a trade magazine.
In an effort to protect its intellectual property, ha ha, as if Microsoft had intellectual property.
Now, I won't go there, that's too easy.
Microsoft Corporation is warning internet users not to download the Windows source code that appeared online last week.
They're warning us, not asking us, they're warning us.
Microsoft is sending warnings to users who search for the source code on peer-to-peer file-swapping services
and is mailing legal warnings to those who have already downloaded the secret programming code.
The secret programming code, oh, that's great.
It sounds like a movie plot.
Tom Pilla, a spokesman for the Redmond, Washington-based software manufacturer, said Wednesday.
Pilla would not say which peer-to-peer services Microsoft is targeting or how the company is delivering the alerts
on the services it doesn't own.
These alerts serve to inform users who initiate a search looking for Windows source code
that it is illegal to view, download, and share the code, he said.
Now, I'm going to interrupt the story for a moment and say I, just for the sake of journalism,
went out and checked some peer-to-peer services that I was aware of.
And I tried to see if I would get some warnings and pop-up windows.
I wanted to see how they were delivering them for the sake of science and study.
And I didn't see anything.
I didn't hear anything.
I don't know which ones they're using or how they're tracking or finding these people or anything like that.
But I didn't see anything up front.
Now, maybe I'll get something in the mail in a few days.
I know some other people in forums said they got cease and desist letters.
I don't know how they got busted or who, you know, how people got found out or discovered.
But, you know, I have a famous saying about a horse that I'm not going to repeat on here,
but you can't put the source code back in the horse.
That's all I'm saying.
So it's out there now, and they can send all the letters they want.
Even Microsoft doesn't realize and understand that once it's out, it's out.
It's done.
It's out there.
So you can send all the letters you want, but you're never going to get it back.
So, anyway.
Anyway, and, frankly, a little bit of the searching I did is I found a lot.
I found the file out there a lot.
I did not download any of them.
I found it out there a lot looking, and what I found interesting was that there were a lot of file names available,
and they seemed to be, frankly, framed.
I don't know if that's a good word.
They seemed to be intentionally spelled in certain ways.
They seemed to have intentional rewording or a few, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have the feeling
that Microsoft has sent agents out there to seed a bunch of false downloads, a bunch of false items.
I saw several, several files out there ranging from 60 megs up to 800 megs,
and I don't even know how big the real file is, and, no, no, you don't have to email me and tell me how big it is
or send it to me or anything like that.
I'm not interested, but, obviously, there's one file size.
It's one known leak, so there can't be that many different variations and different zip file sizes,
at least not such a wide disparity.
A few bytes, one compression algorithm, a little bit different than another.
So, what I'm saying is they've seeded a bunch of false ones,
and I do suspect that it's probably Microsoft trying to control it.
Similar tactics that the MPAA took with their pirated movies.
They'll go out there and seed false movies, movies under different names,
public domain movies under a real movie's name, stuff like that.
A tactic that they're popular for using, and they actually have firms that they hire out to do that for them.
So, I am saying that that's probably Microsoft doing it,
but, obviously, I'm not pointing fingers or making accusations,
because I don't want Microsoft coming after me.
But, let's see.
It goes on to say,
Microsoft has also sent out hundreds of letters to people,
which I just mentioned, who have already downloaded the source code, Pilla said.
And, many have responded by agreeing not to distribute the code and deleting it from their systems, he said.
Pilla would not detail how Microsoft knows who downloaded the code or who received letters.
Exactly what I just said.
We will take all appropriate legal actions to protect our intellectual property.
Today is about communicating, notifying, and explaining to users
that downloading, sharing, and viewing of the source code is illegal, Pilla said.
Well, if Pilla said so, I guess we all have to abide by that.
Microsoft said last week that incomplete portions...
By the way, this is just incomplete.
I think, again, listeners have heard this story, and I'm kind of rehashing it.
That's why I'm going quickly.
It's not complete, according to them.
It's partial source code, and that's pretty much been confirmed by people who have read it.
They agree that it's incomplete.
It's just certain parts of the source code.
And it's from NT 4.0 on Windows 2000.
They have started an internal...
See, the company, referring to Microsoft, has started an internal investigation
and called in the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation.
So the feds are in, the FBI is in here.
Pursuing those who have downloaded the code and warning Internet users not to download the code
is a, quote, natural move, unquote, from Microsoft, said Thor Lahrholm,
a senior security researcher at PIVX Solutions, LLC, in Newport Beach, California,
adding he has not downloaded the code himself.
Yeah, neither have I, in case I didn't mention that.
Microsoft has historically gone to great lengths to defend their copyright, intellectual property, and trade secrets, he said.
Companies developing products for the Windows platform should also endure that their employees do not have the leaked source code
as this could impact their operation, on their operations, and bring a significant liability to the company.
That sounds a lot like SCO and their accusations of people using their source code as part of Linux
and their threats and lawsuits.
So those aren't necessarily successful, but they are working as far as they're trying.
So that, in and of itself, is a pain to people.
So, yeah, I guess if they can identify and prove their source code somewhere, that could be a liability.
The article goes on to say here,
Although it is within Microsoft's rights to protect its intellectual property,
playing hardball with those who have downloaded it may have an adverse effect on the company's image,
says Joe Wilcox, a Jupyter Research senior analyst in Washington, D.C.
While the company arguably is the wronged party here,
Microsoft may want to carefully consider the larger public image cost of trying to protect a three-and-a-half-year-old source code, he said.
The notices run the risk of backlash at a time when Microsoft tries to rebuild a public image tarnished by the U.S. antitrust case.
Wilcox said that some people may view Microsoft's tactic as heavy-handed along the lines of the Recording Industry Association of America.
Remember that some of the source code trading occurs on the same peer-to-peer networks used for swapping music.
Well, yes, like I mentioned that earlier.
Also important to point out, this is three-and-a-half-year-old source code, as they mentioned.
I can tell you from experience that in large companies that I've worked for and I've seen firsthand,
Microsoft, the way they handle site licensing and give you basically bulk discounts,
they, as part of that site license, usually want to sunset support, that is, cancel support on older versions of the operating system.
So if your entire organization was running Windows, I don't know, Windows ME for some unbeknown reason,
and XP came out and you wanted to sign a site license with XP,
XP, usually they work into that site license that you will transfer everything over to Windows XP.
They don't want to support the old Windows ME anymore.
They want to kind of sunset that and put it out of its misery and kind of drop support for it and focus all their stuff on XP,
and they want you to do that as well.
So three-and-a-half-year-old source code, I don't know really who that affects.
Now, I know a lot of hackers are very big about using the right operating system and the right products,
the right code on the right machine.
There's nothing wrong.
There are plenty of people that run an older machine.
We talked earlier about an old iMac, 400 megahertz iMac and 300, 333s and stuff like that.
The Counter-Strike server was running on dual 333s, I believe he said, Pentium 333s.
And as long as the operating system exists, people are going to use it for their specific environments
and what their goals for that are.
Microsoft wants you to not use and look at that old stuff the way they set up their site licenses,
yet, ironically, they seem worried about three-and-a-half-year-old source code.
What I read into that, I'm reading in between the lines, and this is obviously just my opinion.
If anybody differs, of course, feel free to email me and say you're an idiot.
But I think a lot of that code still exists in Windows XP.
I think that's the bigger fear.
I think that a lot of that code, yeah, it's three-and-a-half years old,
but I think they just ported it over.
I think they just updated minor parts of it.
And if you see how it works, sure, maybe some individual strings within there, some tiny changes,
but the overall flow of logic and how modules interact on the OS level, I think, still are the same.
And I think if people see that and understand how it works,
I think that's their fear, that people are going to be able to not steal the code,
but make code very similar, duplicate it, incorporate it into different operating systems
or different projects altogether.
That's what I think their real fear is.
Now, a couple other sources I've got here along the same story.
I just picked a couple more interesting points to really analyze the whole thing.
And one question is where did it get released from?
Now, I had mentioned back on, I don't even know what episode of the show it was,
several episodes back that they were really pushing recently this phase
or this idea of releasing source code to its selected customers,
the ones it was closely allied with and sharing the code with them
so that they could co-develop and they could help develop stuff
and working more closely with the operating system and the kernel
and having a better handshake and working better with the environment.
And I said on the show then that it's an accident waiting to happen.
Somebody's going to get that code and release it.
They can be as careful and as safe as they want to.
It's going to get out.
Now, I don't know if that is the same code and that is what has happened.
And, well, I guess it has happened in a way.
I don't know if it's the same, it's not the XP code that they're sharing,
but it's some type of similar program.
Media reports point to Mainsoft, M-A-I-N-S-O-F-T,
or at least one of its PCs as the culprit.
The company, an Israeli-based research and development center,
reportedly was working on Linux ports of Microsoft software.
If that's not the ultimate irony, I don't know what is.
Working on Linux ports of Microsoft software, that's amazing.
What person who's running a free operating system, Linux,
is going to buy Microsoft products to run on said operating system?
I don't think there's a person in the world.
Well, no, there's got to be some.
There's going to be some dumb ones out there.
There's definitely some people that will do it.
I mean, if you're going to run the Microsoft, I don't know,
Office products or whatever products, you're going to do it on a Microsoft server,
just because the simple fact that you know Microsoft's got you by the short hairs on that.
Who's going to run it?
And the whole reason you're running Linux is to get away from the whole Microsoft monster.
So that's kind of strange.
And one last part of this I found was from CNN, believe it or not.
And they say, quote,
One main risk in having source code exposed to the public
is the possibility that hackers could break into computers running Windows NT or Windows 2000
and destroy or steal data.
Doom, doom, doom, doom.
Yeah, what kind of, I don't know where they just pulled this stuff out of their ass somehow.
That, yeah, I'm so sure that's what they're worried about.
It's what, you know, as a matter of fact, here, it goes on to say,
and this is what I alluded to earlier.
It says, although the company said that was unlikely,
given the relatively small portion of the code that had been circulating,
a greater risk could come from others using the code
as a base for developing software that competes with Windows.
That's the truth.
Not to worry about hackers are going to destroy this
and take over machines because we got this.
No, that's nothing.
That's not what they're worried about.
They're worried that somebody's going to take the source code
and reverse engineer it, figure out how it works,
and use it for their own basis.
That's the truth.
Let's not, you know, I don't understand why they throw.
Yes, I do understand, and I'm not going to go into that soapbox.
But they just, it annoys me, they just want to throw the scary words.
Hackers are going to steal and break into.
Why is that associated?
You know, I just, I don't get that.
So, anyway, that is the big news, and this is ongoing.
I really, I did a little looking to see if I could find information on,
you know, what peer-to-peer services they're checking
and what they're, where they're looking and how they're looking,
but I didn't see anything out there yet.
But if anybody finds anything, like I said, email us at radio.binrev.com
or post it in the forums or even contact me directly.
And I will be watching myself.
I just want to know out of curiosity because who are,
they're Microsoft, fine, but who are they to go on peer-to-peer
and monitor activities on a peer-to-peer service?
And what peer-to-peer service is giving them permission or allowing them to do this?
Or, if they're not allowing them,
why aren't they doing something to stop them for illegally accessing,
you know, violating their terms of service?
Now, I believe it was Earth Station 5,
and their terms of service said that accessing this for certain intents,
of looking for certain activities.
If you're with law enforcement, stuff like that,
the act of accessing the network was a violation of their terms and service.
So, I don't know what legal standing that has,
but I thought that was an interesting comment.
So, we will, that's a story that's not going anywhere for a while,
and we'll follow up on it as we get more news.
When I say we, of course, I guess I mean me,
because Voodoo Hal apparently has not called back.
I guess his cell phone completely died,
or he dropped it in the crap, or one of the two.
Oh, I have one other good story I want to cover today,
and I call this one Java Goes to Walmart.
I get a lot of trade magazines,
and I'm a little bit behind on reading them,
so this is actually probably an older article.
It was from December, E-Week Magazine,
which is one of my trade magazines.
Well, it's actually pretty good, I have to say.
I like it.
And this one is about,
I mentioned before,
Sun's Java desktop system on a previous episode.
Actually, episode 26 I have here.
Sun is negotiating with Wally World,
that would, of course, be Walmart,
and Office Depot to include Sun's JDS,
the Java desktop system,
on a line of low-cost PCs and laptops.
Note that Walmart is expected to come out
with a line of low-cost laptops.
Now, these are two separate stories
we've talked about in the show before.
We have mentioned,
and on RFA,
that Walmart was going to be,
yeah, this is a little Project Walmart Freedom topic.
I didn't even preview.
I should have said,
this is a little Project Walmart Freedom information.
We've talked about before
that Microsoft was going to be coming out
with a line of low-cost laptops.
They still deny it,
but it's pretty much become evident,
public knowledge,
that they're doing it.
They just haven't announced it yet.
So they're going to come out
with low-cost laptops, hardware-wise.
And I guess Sun,
as I mentioned before,
they have that JDS system.
They're trying to go out
and replace Microsoft
to become a new alternative desktop operating system.
And I kind of went into a rant,
and I'm not going to go on episode 26,
so I didn't like the idea
and how it was replacing
one proprietary system with another.
I listened to episode 26
from my mini-review on JDS.
I think I talked about it
on another episode recently, too,
but go back and check out the show notes
if you want to listen more about that.
Now, one of the interesting points about this
is that Sun has predominantly been
in the higher-end business market.
They stay away from home users.
Suddenly, things have changed.
Critics are pointing out two things.
Firstly, the fact that
the supposed target audience
who would buy laptops from Walmart
would probably want Windows operating system.
You know, I don't mean to say this stereotypically,
but I guess I am.
People buying low-cost laptops
are looking for something easy to use.
They're not, you know, hardcore users.
They're your common Walmartians,
to quote our good friends,
over at RFA.
The Walmartians are looking for something
cheap and easy to use.
So they're not going to want some weird JDS.
So they want something
that's more familiar and comfortable.
Now, I can't wait to see
if they go through with this
and they have JDS,
Sun's JDS on there as the operating system.
I can't wait to see how they handle the returns
because people are going to be
returning these things.
They're not going to know how they work.
They're not going to be able to figure them out.
They're going to be returning them
to the store left and right.
And Walmart's return policy,
we know what a pain that can be sometimes.
We've talked about that in the past.
And the first time it crashes
or they screw it up,
they're not going to know how to fix it.
They're just going to have to provide tech support.
And I don't think they're ready
and have thought that all the way through yet.
That's going to be a mess.
It's going to be a lot of those
return to Walmarts
and a lot of open box items,
probably, I predict.
Or they may just refuse to return.
Well, that remains to be seen anyway.
That's stuff I'm sure they're thinking about
or I hope they're thinking about.
And they may have made a decision
that they're not going to take them.
Who knows?
I guess we'll find out
if and when the time comes.
The second fact is
what I had mentioned on episode 26,
and that is why
exchange one proprietary operating system
for another one.
I mean,
Java, when it first came out,
was great.
It was just this amazing thing
that cross-platform development,
you know,
you can develop for one platform
and it works across any platform
because you're working on Java itself,
which is portable and blah, blah.
All such a great idea
and had such potential
and now has become infamous
for being buggy
and crashing systems all the time.
It's just completely 180 degrees
from what it started out.
I mean, Java's just turned into,
well, junk.
So much so that there are companies out there,
and I, again,
I can tell you this firsthand,
there are companies
that have banned Java
from their desktops.
They will not,
they don't want their users
having Java applets
and Java runtime libraries
and stuff like that
on their desktops
because they're so buggy
and because they cause problems.
They actually ban it.
I mean, that is sad.
Do you know how to have your software banned
because it causes so many problems?
That's not the reputation you want.
Well, I hope this is who I think it is
because we are recording,
so here we go.
Sign in, please.
Man, the SILA network just took a shit.
Well, I kept right on going
and I was hoping,
I'm like,
I hope this is not somebody I'm about
because I'm not going to stop recording.
I've been going the whole time.
We've still got about
five or six minutes left.
Yes, is this Mr. Stink, dog?
Oh, yes.
I need to talk to you.
Oh, man.
Now, let me see.
I was just finishing up
actually our second topic.
I was talking about
the Java development,
Java desktop system,
excuse me.
And I was just talking about
how Java,
and actually, you know,
this is a perfect place
for you to jump in.
I was reflecting on how Java,
when it first came out,
really was such a great idea.
It was just revolutionary
to have a language
that you could develop on
that would work cross-platform.
You didn't have to worry about
not only different architectures
in general,
but different versions of,
you know,
Windows 98 versus Windows ME
versus Windows XP.
Well, that wasn't out at the time,
but you know what I mean?
Right.
It was a great idea,
and it started off fine,
but then it just got
so over-engineered
and so complex
and just downright buggy.
Um, I don't know.
I don't know.
Some of you know,
I'm a Java programmer,
or at least I like to call myself
a Java programmer.
It's my language of choice,
even though I do C++
and some other languages.
I mean, I prefer Java.
Yeah, it started out
as an embedded system originally,
you know,
so you could have
your Java coffee maker,
or what is it?
Java toaster.
Right.
That's what it was called.
And originally,
I will give it
that it is becoming
a bit more complex
than it should have been,
and a lot of people
will knock how slow it is,
but,
and we've had,
we had this little competition
in IRC,
yeah,
a 500,000 lines
of Hello World C
will beat it hands down,
but it takes a good Java programmer
to actually make,
you know,
quick applications.
There's a great article
in,
I think it's
Java Development Magazine
this month.
Hmm,
I get that.
What does that tell you?
I'm not a component for,
proponent for,
It tells me you need,
it tells me you're going
to need group therapy.
That's what it tells me.
But,
they have a great article
about how,
you know,
the threading system
between Java and,
you know,
Winston's for,
Winston's,
God,
Windows,
for instance,
is completely different,
and a lot of what people see
is Java being slow
is just poor development.
People will put,
you know,
the GUI handling code
within the main,
main computational loop,
which causes a serious problem.
You know,
if you've got something
that's waiting
and the thread
that's supposed to be handling
the GUI updating
isn't,
is sitting there waiting
on something,
the GUI doesn't get updated,
so it looks like
it's slow as nuts.
It's like,
well,
I'll just click this button
and it's,
you know,
taking me 10 seconds
to move on to something else.
So,
I don't know,
I think Java's been getting
a bad name lately,
personally.
Well,
the thing is,
I mean,
it's getting a bad name,
but I don't,
there are good
Java programmers out there.
Oh,
definitely.
I just think
Java itself
has become
so incredibly
over-engineered.
I mean,
okay,
here's an example.
I'll tell you
when I started
disliking Java.
I was writing Java
in what was then
known as Forte.
Right.
Okay?
Which is now,
which was,
became NetBeans
and Java 1 Studio
and whatever the hell.
Exactly,
and that's what I'm getting at.
Back then,
even that,
it was,
as the versions went up,
it became more and more complex,
but it was still usable.
Sun got this wild hair up their ass
and decided at some point
that,
you know what,
I mean,
I don't know,
maybe you're going to disagree
with me on this,
but the intent of Java
originally came across
feeling like
this is a free alternative,
and I'm not using the word free
that they've stated that.
It felt like
liberate yourself
from only writing C,
because at the time
there was controversy
with C Sharp
and J Sharp
and stuff,
Microsoft trying to use
their proprietary languages
and stuff like that,
and Java was like
the foil to that.
Java was on the other end
going,
you don't have to
cave into Microsoft
and use their languages
and use their environments
and their libraries
and their runtime.
They were totally
the opposite feeling of that.
We are the alternative.
We can cross-platform.
We can work on any platform.
You write it once
and we can do this
and we can do...
And it had that feeling
of being for the people.
Somewhere along the way,
Sun,
and it's probably about that time
that they took over Forte
and Sun 1 came out,
which has been within,
what, a year?
A year and a half?
Right.
Maybe longer?
I don't know.
Actually,
Sun 1's even been renamed.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I see.
Well, at some point,
Sun finally...
I don't know,
but I shouldn't say finally.
Sun made the decision
that, you know what?
We shouldn't be making this
so free and public.
We should milk this
and make money off of this.
and what they have done
is the same damn thing
that Microsoft has done.
They want to make proprietary stuff
and proprietary this
and everything comes from Sun now.
They've over-engineered it to death.
Complete overkill
of all of their products now
so that it's nothing more
than a junior Microsoft.
It's one proprietary system
or the other.
Right.
And I think that's one reason
that a lot of people
have jumped off.
They've changed
from what it was
originally intended
or at least what it seemed like
was the original intent.
I don't know what Sun
originally intended, obviously.
And if someone from Sun
is listening,
by all means,
write me and defend it
because I think
you're full of it myself.
I think you guys
started up with this.
It was a great idea
and then you saw dollar signs.
And you said,
hey, you know what?
The hardware thing
isn't really...
It worked for a little while
but we've leveled off
and it's not doing as well
with the hardware
so we need to start milking this
and they've taken it back,
over-engineered it,
trying to make it something
that it shouldn't be
and I think they're
in the process of killing it.
I don't know if it's too late now.
I don't know if it's dead yet
but I think they're
shooting at it.
Well, what's funny is
Microsoft with their .NET
is exactly what,
I guess,
what you're saying
they're becoming
because their biggest competitor
was .NET
because .NET
for Microsoft
at least is supposed
to be their cross-platform,
their cross-language
architecture,
their product.
But, I mean,
I guess in a way,
yeah,
Java is becoming
exactly that.
Yeah,
and that's just...
And the other thing
that always started
to confuse me too
was,
I mean,
okay,
I understand Java
and I understand
JavaScript.
But then they started
making all these
Java beans
and then there was
some other,
what was the other
derivation called,
let's see,
there's Java server pages,
Java beans,
Java applets,
Java...
It was like there
were so many
different Java
this,
Java that
that it became
confusing
when to use
which one.
In retrospect,
you can kind of
put it together
and you can see it,
but it just,
it's like,
why do we need
all of these
different types
and flavors
and names
for the same Java?
I thought Java
was cross-platform
and it was,
you know...
Right.
Well,
I mean,
you have to consider
a lot of the things
that have been coming out
do completely
different things.
I mean,
the language itself
is the same,
which is a good thing
because,
I mean,
if you consider,
okay,
you've got an application
for developing
desktop applications,
you've got a language
for developing
Java server pages,
which is what
you were talking about.
Right.
Which all uses
the same language.
Which is a wonderful
thing from a development
standpoint because,
you know,
if you're doing,
let's say you're doing,
let's say you're working
on Linux and you're
doing desktop applications
or you're doing
web applications,
you know,
you don't have
this language
that can bridge
between them.
Like,
for instance,
you do your applications
and we'll say C++
because you're doing
desktop applications
and you're saying,
good luck,
have fun,
that's your thing.
But,
you know,
any other language
and then all of a sudden
you need another language
to do the web development
side of things
because you want
your application
to be able to link
or to update a website
or to pull information
down from a website.
All of a sudden
you're doing PHP
and then now
you're wanting
to do things like
embedded on your cell phone
or you have PDA users
that you want
to be able to access
data wirelessly
so now you've got
another language.
And so it all
kind of comes,
you know,
even that becomes
overly complex.
But with the,
at least the part
that I like about it
is,
you know,
you can write
a Java 2 ME
for your cell phone
or for a PDA
using the same language,
the same syntax,
that kind of thing.
And I don't know
if you've done
much Java development
lately,
but Java does,
Java,
Sun does offer
probably the best
documentation
for any language
I've ever seen.
If you check out
sun dot,
or java.sun.com,
they check out
the API information.
It's probably
the most concise,
easiest to read.
I don't know.
That's just me.
Well,
when they,
and that's another thing,
j2ME,
j2EE,
j2,
what,
you know,
there was,
how many different
versions of the compiler
do you need?
How many different names
for different platforms?
You know,
it became confusing.
The problem is,
is that,
for instance,
the j2SE,
which is the standard,
you know,
that,
what most people use,
or compared to that
to the j2ME,
the problem is
when you're working
with embedded things,
you don't have
as much storage
as you could possibly
hope for.
So you have to scale
down the API somewhat.
Okay,
well,
it doesn't need to do this
necessarily,
and it doesn't need
to do this.
Then,
you know,
you start having to
pull out things
you don't need,
so obviously they had
to have a different
name for it.
The j2EE
and the j2SE,
I think they're actually
trying to get rid
of those two
different distinctions.
I know in the latest,
NetBeans is what
it's called now
for,
was what Java
Sun 1 Studios
became.
I think they're,
you know,
trying to get a lot
of that out,
so you're not,
you don't have all those,
but they're still there.
Well,
you also have
another issue
with the runtime libraries
and the virtual machine
to be actually,
the virtual machine problems
with the lawsuits
and how you really
have to have
Sun's virtual machine
on your desktop now.
Right.
It sucks.
And it is slow.
We use
a Java-based application
at work
that is
horrifically slow.
And yes,
of course it's true
for any language
that it depends
on how it was programmed
and how it was written.
But I don't think
that
without seeing
the code,
of course,
I can't make
that judgment call.
But I know
on a daily basis
I see pathetically
slow running
Java applications.
Oh,
and definitely,
I mean,
I can't argue
that a lot
of what you see
is it's going
to be slow.
But a large part
of that is,
you know,
obviously that it's
an interpreted language.
But the thing is,
I don't know,
for me at least,
why Java is,
that part of it
isn't really a problem
is because,
obviously,
computers are becoming
so fast these days.
And I think this is,
you know,
I think I had this argument
before in IRC
that, you know,
people can program
assembly all day long
and they can write
their text editor
in assembly or whatever.
You know,
is it really worth
the time it takes
to develop
in language?
You know,
it may take you
ten years
to do your
damned text editor.
To save,
you know,
a whopping two cycles
or something like that.
Or even,
hell,
five cycles,
ten cycles.
It doesn't matter
when you've got
these machines
that are clocked
well over,
you know,
anything that we
could have hoped
for years ago.
So,
that to me,
I guess,
is the reason
why it's not
really that big
of an issue.
So you're comparing
it to assembly.
I think more appropriate.
Assembly to C.
You know,
you can write it
in a higher level language.
Okay,
yeah,
C is a little bit slower.
And if you're
a really good
assembly programmer,
you can,
you know,
save a couple cycles
by doing this and that.
But is it really
worth it these days?
Well,
I guess,
um,
that's up for debate.
I am of the opinion
that Sun is teetering
on the brink
of blowing,
shooting themselves
in the foot.
Blowing off
their big toe.
If they,
I tell you,
well,
I mean,
you know what
bottom line is,
people want something.
They want an alternative
to Microsoft.
They want something
different to develop.
They don't want .NET,
believe it or not.
Some of them
are going to stick
with it,
but businesses
are very happy.
They don't want
all their eggs
in one basket.
Right.
There are,
I would say,
most smart managers
anyway,
know that you
need to diversify.
There are some cases
when you want things
to operate cleanly
together and handshake
with each other
perfectly fine,
but there are other
cases where you want
to distribute things.
And,
frankly,
I see an infinitely
higher amount
of people that have
sucked it up and said,
we have to go with .NET,
because Java
doesn't cut it.
So,
and that's just
from my professional
experience.
Maybe I've been
at places that are,
I don't know,
biased or have
a different feel,
but,
I have it right here
in the notes here.
At the end of this
article,
which again,
was from eWeek
magazine,
the quote comes
from this,
the end of this
article comes from
an anonymous
IT manager.
And,
it says,
quote,
if Sun had the
interests of the
customer in mind,
then the Sun desktop
would be written in C
and donated to Linux.
Sun is no better
than Microsoft.
And,
if you listen to
episode 26,
I said that,
the whole JDS,
I also mentioned
that it's coded
with Sun products,
the Sun desktop,
the Sun,
what is it,
Star Office,
the Java support
developing,
et cetera,
et cetera.
No,
I don't,
you know,
why would I replace
a proprietary Microsoft
system with a
proprietary Sun system
with,
that is Java based,
which again,
in my opinion,
is inferior to
Microsoft right now.
I think it shouldn't
be,
I think it could
have been much
better,
but I think
they've gotten,
I think the dollar
signs have blinded
them and they're
trying to create
it to be,
what used to be
touted as being
more accessible
and more universal
than the Microsoft
products is now
becoming a competitor
to the Microsoft
products instead.
And I don't think
that's what they
meant.
Or at least it
didn't seem like it
in the beginning.
But,
hey,
what do I know?
I know we're
out of time.
I know that.
I know your
phone,
what did your
phone die or
something?
No,
we have two,
you know we have
two cell phones
here from the
same company,
the exact same
phones.
We have two of
the Motorola
T720s.
Right.
Being that some
other people I
know have.
Yep.
and literally the
network just cut
out.
I had full signal
on the phones
themselves but they
weren't getting
anything,
they couldn't dial
numbers so I'm
assuming there was
a problem somewhere
up that wasn't
this site.
So I don't know,
I couldn't call
anybody.
I even tried
calling 911 for
the hell of it.
Well,
that's strange.
I don't know that
I've ever heard that
before because it
was out for...
About three months
ago,
it was probably
longer than that
now,
four or five
months ago,
some people may
remember,
I think it had a
damn near nationwide
failure.
I mean it was
pretty big.
It lasted for all
of a day or so.
Yeah,
I think it must
have been out for
I don't know,
what,
20 minutes?
15?
Yeah.
It was out for a
good while.
Yeah,
a while back they
had a pretty big
failure which was
really bizarre is
that people in the
same,
I think I remember
reading this on
flashback,
people in the
same area,
I mean,
could be standing
beside each other
and one person
could call and
three others
couldn't.
So...
Hmm.
Very strange.
We are being
watched.
Big brother is
listening.
The man trying
to bring us
down.
That's right.
They are trying
to hold you
down.
I'm being
repressed.
I'm being
repressed.
I was afraid
the feds were
about to break
down my door.
You know,
the calm
before the storm.
Anytime a hacker's
phone goes dead,
you gotta admit
there's a small
tingling in the
back of your
head that says
uh-oh.
We were
standing outside
doing something
the other day
and three cops
rolled up outside
of our front
door in the
apartment building
so I'm like,
hmm,
damn it,
I forgot to do
that remote
control purge
thing I was
wanting to do.
Exactly,
right?
Hmm.
Yeah,
I gotta work
something like
that out
myself,
I must
say.
But not
because I
have the
Microsoft
code.
I made
that clear
in the show
earlier.
Just to
throw that
out there.
Don't send
me any
cease and
desist
letters.
I never
even had a
desire to
download it.
This wasn't
one of those
things that I
really care to
see.
And it's
partial.
It's not going
to make me a
worse coder or
anything.
I just have
no desire.
It's partial
code,
first of all,
and I
mentioned also
earlier when I
saw it,
it's three
and a half
years old.
See,
the thing is,
I think a lot
of that is
incorporated in
XP.
I know a lot
of it's
incorporated in
Server 2003.
Well,
it was source
code from
2000 and
NT4.
Right.
Basically,
XP had the
subname as
NT5.1.
And if you
look,
2000 was
actually NT5.0.
So if that
tells you
anything,
obviously there's
a large part
of it in
XP.
Absolutely.
And I think
an even larger
part in
2003 server.
Yeah,
I mean,
personally,
I don't really
care to see the
source code for
Solitaire.
Yeah.
I don't know,
man.
I might figure out
a way to
hack-sore the
Solitaire.
Yeah,
I know,
man.
My Minesweeper
just doesn't go
as fast as
theirs,
so I have to
take something
from it.
You can go into
the Minesweeper
INI file and
just manually edit
that plain text
and you can
go on there and
put it in
custom champion
mode and put
one second and
put your name
in there.
I mean,
that's already
easy to do
that.
I haven't
told you my
story about my
Minesweeper game.
I'll say that
some other time.
Okay,
we'll save that
for another
episode.
Now,
as long as
we're on the
topic,
I'll go ahead
and give my
shout-outs and
my shout-outs go
to Microsoft for
joining the
open-source
revolution.
Welcome aboard.
Welcome to the
open-source
community.
Whether you're
meant to be here
or not,
whether it was
voluntary or not,
welcome aboard.
You are now
open-source.
You cannot put
the source back
in the horse.
That's my
shout-outs for
the show.
I guess I
got shout-outs
too.
I'll give
digital nutrition
shout-outs for
whipping my
ass.
Thanks.
It puts
everything in
perspective,
you asshole.
Yeah,
thanks a lot.
I guess that's
it for me.
And we are
going to close
again this week
with another
track from
Brad Sucks
who we
closed with
last week.
This time
we're going to
use a song
called I
Think I
Started a
Trend.
And I've
mentioned it
several times
before,
but one last
time,
if you want
to email us
radio at
binrev.com.
And Voodoo
Al,
thank you for
being on the
show and
then not being
on the show
and then being
back on the
show again.
Appreciate
having you.
again.
Does that
count as
two appearances?
Yeah.
And that
is going to
do it.
So we
will see
everyone next
week.
Same
hack time.
Oh,
okay.
Same.
I'll screw
it.
Later.
Washed up on
shore, I'm
getting sand in
my face.
I took it
hard and now
I'm spending
my days
from flying
around in
total comfort
and sin.
And if you
believe me,
I can do
it again.
I sold out
all my friends
and then
I took it
easy.
Everybody
said they
never would
believe me.
I paid no
attention
to the
very end.
Oh, yeah.
I think
I started
a trend.
Dead
close
horses
running
crazy
out of
gates.
Player
haters
in the
metal
learning
how to
create.
Big
belly
well, he
said he
was a
man from
L.A.
He
seemed
okay
and so
assigned
me away.
So
there
were my
friends
and then
I took
it easy.
Everybody
said they
never would
believe me.
I paid
no
attention
to the
very
end.
Oh, yeah.
I think
started
a trend.
So
that
all my
friends
and then
I took
it easy.
Everybody
said they
never would
believe me.
I paid
no
attention
to the
very
end.
Oh, yeah.
I think
I started
a trend.
go to
.
go to
the
one.
Oh, yeah.