WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:07.000 This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers. 00:07.000 --> 00:09.000 To the hackers and the crackers. 00:09.000 --> 00:12.000 I see in binary, I speak source code. 00:12.000 --> 00:16.000 Step on my toes, I'll post a million game pegs of you in a fag pose. 00:16.000 --> 00:19.000 In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho. 00:19.000 --> 00:21.000 Cause I'm riding the net in my six foe. 00:21.000 --> 00:23.000 I was a dick with my 56. 00:23.000 --> 00:26.000 Now with my cable, I'm able to get that stable. 00:26.000 --> 00:28.000 On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo. 00:28.000 --> 00:32.000 On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero. 00:32.000 --> 00:35.000 In a flash, I'll screw you on burning Dreamcasts. 00:35.000 --> 00:38.000 You need some ISO? Let me through my hard drive rifle. 00:38.000 --> 00:40.000 Our exchange you could never stifle. 00:40.000 --> 00:43.000 In a digital hug, you just caught the love bug. 00:43.000 --> 00:47.000 I bootlegged your CD. I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z. 00:47.000 --> 00:49.000 Cause CG, it's all gonna be free. 00:49.000 --> 00:52.000 Whether we take it by force or we take it nicely. 00:52.000 --> 00:54.000 You feel that rattle in your bones? 00:54.000 --> 00:56.000 When I tell you we just hacked out Jones? 00:56.000 --> 00:58.000 And NASDAQ leaves you flat on your back. 00:58.000 --> 01:00.000 Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack. 01:00.000 --> 01:03.000 Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack. 01:03.000 --> 01:06.000 This is dedicated to the hackers and the criminals. 01:06.000 --> 01:11.000 Serial codes, source codes, ISOs, RANs, SIFs, SIFs. 01:11.000 --> 01:14.000 This is dedicated to the hackers and the criminals. 01:15.000 --> 01:19.000 Hello everyone and welcome to Binary Revolution Radio. 01:19.000 --> 01:22.000 Episode number 59. 01:22.000 --> 01:25.000 I don't know why I said that last so loud. 01:25.000 --> 01:26.000 There's really no significance. 01:26.000 --> 01:27.000 It's just another show. 01:27.000 --> 01:28.000 Episode 59. 01:28.000 --> 01:33.000 Coming to you on the 24th of August, 2004. 01:33.000 --> 01:37.000 And we are, you know what? 01:37.000 --> 01:41.000 We're on a run, in my opinion, of really, really good shows. 01:41.000 --> 01:43.000 They're all good shows, I like to think. 01:43.000 --> 01:48.000 But I think these last few shows have been really good because I've learned a lot from them. 01:48.000 --> 01:53.000 I've been picking up and doing a lot of research and learning things and learning from the co-hosts. 01:53.000 --> 01:55.000 And tonight is going to be no exception. 01:55.000 --> 02:00.000 A co-host on the show tonight is going to be none other than Jason Scott himself. 02:00.000 --> 02:01.000 Welcome to the show, my friend. 02:01.000 --> 02:02.000 Hello. 02:02.000 --> 02:03.000 Hello, listeners. 02:03.000 --> 02:07.000 And, boy, we did a lot of catching up after Hope. 02:07.000 --> 02:09.000 We had a lot of good topics we talked about. 02:09.000 --> 02:18.000 And some of them that you and I both have in common as far as interest level is going to be what our main topic is later on tonight. 02:18.000 --> 02:21.000 Specifically, well, a couple topics really. 02:21.000 --> 02:24.000 Audio, audio format compression and things like that. 02:24.000 --> 02:29.000 As well as archiving and storage and maintenance, et cetera, et cetera. 02:29.000 --> 02:31.000 Anything related to that. 02:31.000 --> 02:35.000 So, obviously, you have a lot of experience with that as well as I do. 02:35.000 --> 02:36.000 As well as I. 02:36.000 --> 02:38.000 Gosh, that was horrible grammar. 02:38.000 --> 02:39.000 As well as myself. 02:39.000 --> 02:41.000 I don't know what I'm saying there. 02:41.000 --> 02:43.000 So, anyway, that's going to be our main topic later on. 02:43.000 --> 02:49.000 But before we do, we are going to stick with our format and start off with the housekeeping. 02:49.000 --> 02:53.000 I'm going to do one thing off the top of the show because I haven't done this in a long time. 02:53.000 --> 02:56.000 And that's Pimp, the distributed.net team. 02:56.000 --> 03:00.000 On the front page, I might bump it to the top of the front page by the time this airs. 03:00.000 --> 03:04.000 We have a DDP team on distributed.net. 03:04.000 --> 03:16.000 This is a client that you download to your computer and it uses your spare CPU time, your idle CPU time, to crunch away doing some, well, basically some password cracking, some encryption cracking I should say. 03:16.000 --> 03:22.000 And testing the standards, see how powerful encryption is and how powerful computers and as they get more and more powerful. 03:22.000 --> 03:30.000 Like right now, the Macs, those G5s, those G4s, G5s are just incredible at crunching these numbers for encryption cracking. 03:30.000 --> 03:40.000 So, it's kind of testing them, see where they all fall into place and see if encryption standards are still outpacing raw distributed power. 03:40.000 --> 03:44.000 So, it's a cool project and we do have an official DDP team set up. 03:44.000 --> 03:47.000 So, you can check out the front page at binrev.com. 03:47.000 --> 03:53.000 Kind of towards the bottom, like I said, I'll try to put it up to the top so people can link to that if they want to get involved. 03:53.000 --> 04:00.000 If you've got a box laying around or a few boxes like most hackers do, throw this on there, use some of that idle CPU time and just kind of watch the stats. 04:00.000 --> 04:03.000 Because I'm a statistics nut, as the regular listeners know. 04:03.000 --> 04:07.000 Kind of an archivist myself, I think we have that kinship. 04:07.000 --> 04:11.000 And, let's jump into some e-mail. 04:11.000 --> 04:15.000 Now, let's see, let's do the theme music here. 04:15.000 --> 04:40.000 And, one thing I want to mention in e-mail, we got quite a few e-mails on this subject. 04:40.000 --> 04:52.000 And, I can't go through all of them individually, but we had several e-mails from some of our listeners in Canada who confirmed, last week we talked about the Canadian blank media levy. 04:52.000 --> 05:06.860 I don't know what the exact term of it is, quite honestly, but there's a levy they charge on blank media trying to, in an attempt to disrupt piracy or slow it down by charging you extra money for blank CDs and blank CD burners, DVD burners, etc., etc. 05:06.860 --> 05:08.820 I think the technical term is protection racket. 05:08.820 --> 05:10.820 Well, yeah, I think that's... 05:10.820 --> 05:14.240 It's not a protection racket, or maybe the ISO got together and just called it extortion. 05:14.580 --> 05:15.860 Yeah, they call it a levy. 05:15.960 --> 05:19.000 Down here, we call it busting someone's shins with a crowbar. 05:19.160 --> 05:19.820 Is that... 05:19.820 --> 05:24.300 Yeah, it's called, if you want to stay in business, give someone who doesn't know your business some money. 05:24.580 --> 05:24.980 Exactly. 05:25.420 --> 05:31.840 If they have their own business that you're no good at, and you don't want to learn what their business is. 05:31.840 --> 05:47.680 Well, luckily, it sounds like several people confirmed that, really, the large chains are honoring it, but it looks like most of the mom-and-pop stores, and that was our question, or somebody had mentioned that they didn't get charged at several of the smaller places, the mom-and-pop, that's their way they compete is on price. 05:47.680 --> 05:51.680 They can't compete with those big chains somehow, so they said that quite a few. 05:51.780 --> 05:54.920 It's very common that you can go and get them without having to pay that levy. 05:55.420 --> 05:57.060 So, that's kind of a cool thing to know. 05:57.120 --> 05:57.760 I guess it's good. 05:57.940 --> 06:00.800 So, thank you to several people, like I said, who emailed us about that. 06:00.880 --> 06:02.220 Moth, Gluco, a lot of people. 06:02.220 --> 06:15.220 Now, onto some specific emails, these also are going to kind of, I picked all these emails because they do somewhat tie into the direction we're going with the rest of the show. 06:15.860 --> 06:19.500 So, the first email was from someone who gave their real name. 06:19.580 --> 06:23.000 I don't know if they care or don't care, but play it safe, we're not going to give it. 06:23.080 --> 06:26.600 Their real name was withheld by me, who says, 06:26.600 --> 06:32.720 StankDog, I have put together a website that links to comp and tech shows that stream online. 06:33.440 --> 06:36.600 I recently became aware of your show and would like to add it to my site. 06:37.180 --> 06:42.100 I usually use a logo from the show's website to serve as the link on my archives page. 06:42.400 --> 06:44.760 Would it be okay to lift a logo from your site? 06:45.400 --> 06:52.320 Also, I was hoping that you could provide a brief description of your show so that I may also include that info. 06:53.360 --> 06:55.480 And he gives me the link, which we'll throw up in the show notes. 06:56.600 --> 07:04.920 So, we get this every once in a while, but there's no harm in reaffirming this because I want to point out, I'm going to kind of segue into some more emails with this. 07:05.240 --> 07:10.280 But first of all, absolutely, we want everybody, if you want to listen to the show, that's what it's about. 07:10.340 --> 07:11.240 I put it out there to listen. 07:12.000 --> 07:13.380 You know, that's why I make the show. 07:13.740 --> 07:19.080 We put the show out there so that people can learn, learn along with us so that I can learn and learn along with the co-host, etc. 07:19.660 --> 07:21.980 So, absolutely, totally cool. 07:22.080 --> 07:23.580 Take anything from the site you want. 07:23.660 --> 07:24.300 Take the graphics. 07:24.300 --> 07:27.460 Just, you know, keep in mind we have a Creative Commons license. 07:28.140 --> 07:34.260 And all that Creative Commons license for us means is if you're going to use the stuff, just make sure you give us a link back. 07:34.320 --> 07:34.780 Give us credit. 07:34.900 --> 07:35.700 Don't chop it up. 07:35.780 --> 07:36.300 That kind of stuff. 07:36.360 --> 07:37.160 Leave it as it is. 07:37.440 --> 07:38.040 Give us credit. 07:38.480 --> 07:38.940 Distribute it. 07:39.020 --> 07:41.200 Don't charge money for it because we are not charging money. 07:41.680 --> 07:42.640 It's a community thing. 07:42.700 --> 07:43.620 We want people to learn. 07:44.240 --> 07:46.560 That's basically all our Creative Commons license says. 07:46.560 --> 07:47.480 So, feel free. 07:48.140 --> 07:51.260 We have link boxes out there already on the front page. 07:51.320 --> 07:53.860 If you scroll down a little bit, you'll find some link boxes by Logan5. 07:54.080 --> 07:57.060 Wonderful, wonderful work that you can use. 07:57.220 --> 08:00.580 Or, hey, lift some of the other graphics from the site. 08:00.660 --> 08:02.140 Take the BinRev logo at the top. 08:02.260 --> 08:03.620 Take something from the forums. 08:03.720 --> 08:04.680 Take something from the gallery. 08:04.800 --> 08:05.200 Absolutely. 08:05.480 --> 08:07.400 By all means, I'm completely open to that. 08:09.180 --> 08:13.300 The description of the show, quite honestly, I didn't realize this. 08:13.520 --> 08:18.800 But when he brought it to my attention, I don't have a description of the show up. 08:19.040 --> 08:21.040 I never realized that before. 08:22.160 --> 08:26.140 Well, what happens is your first show serves as your introduction to what the show is going to be like. 08:26.580 --> 08:28.920 And next thing you know, you turn around and you've got 59 shows. 08:29.100 --> 08:31.360 Yeah, I'm kind of a little disappointed in that. 08:31.360 --> 08:35.980 So, I will put up a description just because it's missing. 08:36.320 --> 08:37.660 You know, there's an obvious void there. 08:38.460 --> 08:41.060 So, I'll write up something, just a little sentence or two. 08:42.500 --> 08:48.720 I guess it feels kind of corny, but I'll do it so that, yeah, for new listeners who don't know exactly what it is. 08:48.720 --> 08:50.480 I even went to RantRadio.com. 08:50.560 --> 08:54.420 I thought I had given them a paragraph or something when we first started the show. 08:54.700 --> 08:58.380 But, you know, the description is changing the world one hack at a time. 08:58.940 --> 08:59.940 You know, this is a hacking show. 08:59.940 --> 09:02.520 We just talk about what hacking is and different things like that. 09:02.800 --> 09:05.180 So, I'm going to try to type up a couple sentences. 09:05.540 --> 09:08.100 But, and please, tell me what you think of this. 09:08.220 --> 09:10.940 On one hand, it's like, yeah, I want to put that up. 09:11.120 --> 09:12.740 You know, I'll type something up and put it up there. 09:12.800 --> 09:19.120 But at the same time, I feel like I'm, I mean, who, is it, I don't even know how to put it into words. 09:19.120 --> 09:23.380 I don't want, I feel awkward writing the description of my own show. 09:23.540 --> 09:26.220 You know, it feels like, I don't know, it feels kind of awkward. 09:26.440 --> 09:34.320 It almost seems like someone else, you know, let this person who wants to put it on his site, maybe he should write the description based on what he's heard. 09:34.860 --> 09:38.400 You know, maybe it's, maybe it's up to someone else to write a description of what the show is about. 09:38.400 --> 09:47.800 You know, write a, write a couple sentences or a description because what I think of it and what it actually is may be two way completely different things. 09:48.100 --> 09:54.000 Well, just, just write out your description of what you think it is and then go back and edit out all the stuff about being incredible in bed and you'll be all set. 09:54.440 --> 09:54.760 Oh. 09:55.560 --> 09:58.940 Not that, no, they got to find that out one at a time, all the groupies. 09:59.140 --> 10:01.840 But, no, not that out and you won't feel too bad about it. 10:01.900 --> 10:05.800 And get rid of the whole part about being able to bend steel with your hands and you'll be all fine. 10:05.800 --> 10:07.420 Oh, crap, where's my eraser? 10:08.680 --> 10:10.560 Doggone it, that's what I get for writing in pen. 10:12.380 --> 10:13.240 Oh, let's see. 10:13.340 --> 10:15.120 So, yeah, I'll whip something up and put it up there. 10:15.420 --> 10:23.820 But, hey, feel free to, you know what, and the other thing is, feel free to write, if you know what, if you think the show sucks, and I know there are people out there who think that, 10:24.360 --> 10:28.040 put out, you can put up a thing that says, this is the worst show on the entire interweb. 10:28.600 --> 10:32.980 You know, go ahead and put that up if that's what you, you know what, I'm cool with that. 10:32.980 --> 10:40.480 But, bottom line is, yes, I'll try to write something up for you, feel free to use any graphics, feel free to share this with anybody you want as long as you don't charge for it. 10:40.900 --> 10:45.920 Use graphics, I'm totally cool with that, I'm glad that, you know, you're interested and maybe someone else will be. 10:46.020 --> 10:53.260 So, all joking aside, yes, by all means, do whatever, whatever you want to do with it, you know, within that Creative Commons license. 10:53.440 --> 10:54.460 So, very cool with that. 10:54.460 --> 10:58.820 Second email tonight is from Thought Criminal. 11:00.380 --> 11:05.720 Who says, Stank, please excuse the crude nature of the question, but what the hell? 11:06.140 --> 11:08.160 Mag cards? Databases? Mimetics? 11:08.720 --> 11:14.180 Is it just me, or did Binary Revolution Radio just take a huge evolutionary leap in content quality? 11:14.940 --> 11:18.620 See, when I started reading this, I was like, who is, what the hell is this guy getting ready to yell at me about? 11:18.620 --> 11:24.420 But, he kind of twisted it on me there, and you know what, I kind of agree with the content. 11:24.540 --> 11:29.240 You know, I've learned a lot from these specific ones, these guests we've had on, Acidus and Decius and some of these guys. 11:30.220 --> 11:31.080 Great, great stuff. 11:31.780 --> 11:33.320 But, I'm sorry, I interrupted his email here. 11:34.080 --> 11:38.060 I've been listening for a while and the show is great, yada, yada, yada, smoke up your ass, old news. 11:38.060 --> 11:45.880 Never have I thought more during three episodes, and never have I gotten nine hours of listening out of them, because I listened over and over. 11:46.340 --> 11:50.940 I love learning, and my mind has been expanded for three weeks straight, so thanks a ton, and keep it up. 11:52.140 --> 11:53.720 Thank you, by the way, you don't have to thank me. 11:54.580 --> 12:02.600 Ironically, I was dreaming about hacking around with a mag stripe equipment last year, but gave up due to no good documentation. 12:02.800 --> 12:05.040 One of Acidus' laments on the show. 12:05.040 --> 12:08.180 By the way, what are your plans for the show? 12:08.300 --> 12:09.800 Do you know how long it will last? 12:10.140 --> 12:12.420 Have you ever thought about a career in radio beyond BinRev? 12:12.960 --> 12:15.640 I don't know what everyone else thinks, but you've definitely got the knack. 12:16.060 --> 12:21.180 My only reservation would be not being able to hear you rant and curse where curses are due. 12:21.740 --> 12:29.700 In conclusion, please stop being so good, or you'll have to go clear channel, make 700K a year, and move to Tahiti, where hacking surely isn't as enjoyable. 12:30.500 --> 12:35.020 You should probably point out to the listeners that the part where you say the show is great, yada, yada, yada, smoke up your ass, 12:35.040 --> 12:39.440 up your ass, old news, is actually what he wrote, and not your opinion. 12:40.240 --> 12:44.580 Well, yeah, I was reading his, literally, that's what he typed in there. 12:45.060 --> 12:49.960 And lest you think I read this to blow smoke up my own ass or something, no. 12:50.260 --> 12:52.920 There's actually kind of a point here I wanted to make. 12:53.780 --> 12:58.040 I probably should have edited out some of that stuff, but it just got down to the 700K a year part. 12:58.120 --> 13:03.140 But I wanted to point out, I know he's saying this is a joke, and I appreciate it. 13:03.140 --> 13:03.940 Uh-oh, I got a tone there. 13:03.960 --> 13:04.640 Is the FBI on? 13:05.280 --> 13:07.080 If they're on, they're having a great old time. 13:07.280 --> 13:07.600 Right. 13:07.600 --> 13:12.920 No, I know he's kind of joking, and I do appreciate the kind words, and I didn't read it because of that. 13:13.000 --> 13:16.100 I read it because of this thing about the future of the show. 13:16.660 --> 13:18.860 Okay, so first of all, thank you for the words. 13:18.960 --> 13:22.000 I'm not reading it because I like hearing somebody say good things. 13:22.020 --> 13:22.800 That's not it at all. 13:24.700 --> 13:28.520 I do agree, first of all, like I said, the past few episodes have been great, 13:28.640 --> 13:30.260 and hopefully we will continue in that direction. 13:30.260 --> 13:34.000 This show is definitely no exception, with the great Jason Scott on. 13:34.680 --> 13:36.780 See, that's blowing smoke right there. 13:37.400 --> 13:39.080 That's how you do it. 13:40.160 --> 13:42.980 But as far as the plans for the show, and this is why I read these emails, 13:44.020 --> 13:49.080 the plans for the show is I'm going to do this as long as I can, as long as I enjoy it, 13:49.320 --> 13:53.320 and most importantly, as long as other people are enjoying it and learning from it. 13:53.400 --> 13:55.760 That's my goal with this show. 13:55.760 --> 14:00.620 And Jason and I have talked about this at Hope and offline and other, you know, 14:01.220 --> 14:07.160 my goal for this is not, I know, we're not going to go into a tangent on this 14:07.160 --> 14:11.960 because we've already beat this horse dead, but I don't look at this as a historic thing. 14:12.100 --> 14:14.320 I don't, you know, if it gets archived, that's great. 14:14.400 --> 14:17.100 If somebody listens to it a few years from now, a few months from now, that's great. 14:17.340 --> 14:21.100 I'm doing it week by week because I enjoy it, because I'm learning from it, 14:21.100 --> 14:23.300 and I hope that other people are learning along with it. 14:23.300 --> 14:30.660 But as far as, like, my plans for the future and my, you know, what's the future of the show 14:30.660 --> 14:35.480 and a career in radio beyond BinRev, quite honestly, that's just not going to happen. 14:36.020 --> 14:38.540 It's just not. That's not what I'm in this for. 14:38.960 --> 14:43.540 I don't, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't turn down 700 grand if somebody wanted to throw it my way. 14:43.960 --> 14:47.260 But let's be real. I'm not going to be on Clear Channel. 14:48.080 --> 14:52.240 Because I, well, first of all, I think I've disrespected Clear Channel on quite a few occasions on the show, 14:52.240 --> 14:54.220 and I will continue to do so. 14:55.720 --> 14:57.860 And I won't even get into the monopoly that they are. 14:58.800 --> 15:03.660 And also, I don't think you're going to get 700K out of Clear Channel unless you're running Clear Channel. 15:03.900 --> 15:05.980 Yeah, yeah, absolutely right, absolutely. 15:06.300 --> 15:10.800 But, you know, and I'm going to segue into the next email before I go too far into this, 15:10.880 --> 15:14.320 but, yeah, I'm all about week by week. 15:14.320 --> 15:17.820 I know that sounds kind of cliche, you know, like the football player. 15:17.900 --> 15:21.040 Oh, we're just, we're just playing game by game trying to make the playoffs. 15:21.180 --> 15:27.020 No, I'm just going week by week and learning as I go along and trying to come up with something interesting to me each week. 15:27.140 --> 15:29.220 And if other people find it interesting, that's great. 15:29.820 --> 15:33.700 If people listen to this months down the road or a year down the road, that's icing on the cake too. 15:33.740 --> 15:35.240 That's all, that's all wonderful. 15:35.240 --> 15:41.820 But, you know what, if people stop listening to it or I get to the point where I physically can't do it, 15:41.840 --> 15:44.200 I don't have time, I have job, family, and things like that. 15:44.240 --> 15:53.100 We've said on the show many times that real life always takes precedence over your online life or your virtual life or whatever you want to call it. 15:53.500 --> 15:58.960 So as long as I can keep doing this and keep enjoying it, which I don't see, I don't see it stopping anytime soon. 15:59.000 --> 16:00.180 I'm having a blast. 16:00.720 --> 16:02.320 I'm having a great time doing this show. 16:02.320 --> 16:05.540 So as far as the future of it, I'm just going to keep doing this. 16:05.660 --> 16:08.980 Hey, we get through season two, season three, whatever, as far as we can get. 16:09.200 --> 16:10.020 That's really all. 16:10.140 --> 16:13.940 I'm not that ambitious, not that ambitious at all as far as long term. 16:15.920 --> 16:21.980 And again, information to me, there's so much information. 16:22.160 --> 16:24.420 And again, we have this kinship in common. 16:24.560 --> 16:25.440 We're both archivists. 16:25.660 --> 16:27.340 There's so much to learn. 16:27.940 --> 16:31.540 There's so much information out there that it's wonderful. 16:31.540 --> 16:34.700 Never a shortage of content for the show. 16:34.880 --> 16:36.500 There's not a lack of guests. 16:36.600 --> 16:37.880 There's always great people. 16:38.000 --> 16:39.720 There's always intelligent people to get on the show. 16:40.220 --> 16:44.420 And as long as there's always information out there, there's always something to talk about. 16:44.520 --> 16:47.040 There's always something new to find out, new things being discovered. 16:47.440 --> 16:48.820 Knowledge is limitless. 16:48.820 --> 16:56.580 And if the show can be limitless, if the show can keep growing as long as I keep gaining knowledge, that's how the show – that's the future of the show. 16:57.280 --> 16:58.920 Yeah, never pretend that you know it all. 16:59.040 --> 17:02.080 Never pretend to reach the end of your learning curve. 17:02.600 --> 17:03.820 Well, I knew it all yesterday. 17:04.080 --> 17:05.100 Well, that's the thing. 17:05.160 --> 17:06.100 But I forgot a couple things. 17:06.100 --> 17:07.780 I just woke up and then somebody schools you. 17:08.180 --> 17:10.600 Well, I just forgot some of it while I slept. 17:10.860 --> 17:11.100 Right. 17:11.260 --> 17:13.680 At the end of the next day, I'm usually caught back up again. 17:13.880 --> 17:14.160 Right. 17:14.500 --> 17:15.360 Now, all the new stuff. 17:15.600 --> 17:17.600 Yeah, and plus some stuff people haven't figured out yet. 17:17.980 --> 17:18.740 That's what people don't know. 17:18.800 --> 17:22.200 The universe has an RSS feed, and that's why you've got to stick your head on and you're all set. 17:22.940 --> 17:23.240 Yeah. 17:23.440 --> 17:25.860 How many of this is it gets 400,000 updates a day? 17:25.920 --> 17:27.140 But other than that, yeah, it's great. 17:27.500 --> 17:28.780 Exactly, exactly. 17:29.500 --> 17:32.700 No, so anyway, that's basically – that's the future of the show. 17:32.980 --> 17:37.640 As long as it's fun and as long as there's content, which is – there's always content, we're going to keep doing it. 17:37.760 --> 17:41.620 So the career in radio, no, that's not my goal. 17:41.760 --> 17:42.860 I'm a programmer. 17:43.400 --> 17:46.800 You know, I'm a computer programmer for a living, my paycheck that is to say. 17:47.380 --> 17:48.120 I'm a hacker. 17:48.440 --> 17:49.560 That's what my interest is. 17:50.100 --> 17:55.000 Being on this show and doing it is just to share with people, and hopefully they're also learning along with me. 17:55.100 --> 17:56.260 That's really what the show is about. 17:56.260 --> 18:00.140 So as far as a profession, that's – yeah, that's not going to happen. 18:00.440 --> 18:03.260 And if it did, it wouldn't be a Clear Channel thing, like Jason said. 18:03.860 --> 18:12.340 So anyway, I'm going to transition this into the next email because there's another reason, another pretty obvious reason why I'm not going to be on Clear Channel. 18:12.440 --> 18:14.240 And this next letter kind of explains that. 18:14.300 --> 18:24.000 This letter is from, again, someone who sent in from their real name making an offer to me, a very generous offer and idea. 18:24.000 --> 18:30.420 I'm not reading the name only because I'm not sure if he wants it, and I always err on the side of caution. 18:30.420 --> 18:32.420 But he says, 18:32.420 --> 18:35.060 I am having trouble listening to your hack radio stream. 18:35.140 --> 18:37.620 It is buffering like there is no tomorrow. 18:38.500 --> 18:39.460 A little creative editing. 18:39.880 --> 18:44.440 I was also wondering if you might be interested in being on a real live radio station. 18:44.920 --> 18:51.640 I am working with a community radio station here in – and I'm not going to mention the city or the call letters, just in case. 18:51.640 --> 18:59.260 We are a low-power FM station, but we cover our county and then some, and the signal is pretty stable for about 10 to 20 miles. 18:59.640 --> 19:09.560 We could run archives of your show, or, depending on what time you are on live, we could rerun it – excuse me, we could run it undelayed and totally live by picking up the stream and rebroadcasting it. 19:09.980 --> 19:11.700 Let us know what you think about this idea. 19:11.820 --> 19:12.720 BinRev is a cool show. 19:12.780 --> 19:18.380 We like to put it out there for the college students and old hippie freakers – I love that term – that live around here. 19:18.380 --> 19:27.200 The only thing we would need to do is edit any curse words out of the show before we air it, or we would have to ask you not to use expletives on the program. 19:27.580 --> 19:31.880 You seem to do a lot better at keeping things clean in your show than, say, other shows. 19:32.380 --> 19:41.780 We wanted to run other shows very badly, but by the time we found out about them, they had quit the show, and they cursed so much that it would be way too much work to clean them up. 19:42.420 --> 19:45.500 Anyway, get back to me if you wish to collaborate with us. 19:45.500 --> 19:48.440 Now, a little creative editing, by the way. 19:50.860 --> 19:51.540 Let's be honest. 19:51.620 --> 19:55.300 This is the real reason why I'm not going to be on – what do they say? 19:55.320 --> 19:56.820 A real live radio station. 19:57.980 --> 19:58.700 First of all, no. 19:59.660 --> 20:03.940 I don't want this – I'm going to reply to this, but it's definitely not personal against this person. 20:04.040 --> 20:07.280 I appreciate this offer, and I'm not a tag, but I'm going to explain why. 20:07.280 --> 20:14.220 Because I've had a couple other people make similar offers that they work at radio stations, college stations, et cetera, I've had offers from. 20:14.880 --> 20:21.800 And my answer to all of them is, same as to the person earlier who wanted to put it up on his website and link to us. 20:22.380 --> 20:22.820 Absolutely. 20:23.420 --> 20:24.820 I'm completely for that. 20:24.980 --> 20:25.840 Share the knowledge. 20:25.980 --> 20:27.540 Keep knowledge free, as Rex always said. 20:27.540 --> 20:35.100 Get the knowledge out there, and if people find it interesting and you think the old hippie freaks and college students will like it, that's great. 20:35.440 --> 20:36.840 I love old hippie freaks. 20:36.940 --> 20:38.060 I love college students. 20:38.200 --> 20:40.520 That's great if they're going to find it interesting. 20:42.320 --> 20:43.340 And you know what? 20:44.280 --> 20:46.300 Yes, other shows may have language, but you know what? 20:46.320 --> 20:47.680 I have my language issues too. 20:48.240 --> 20:49.440 I'm just as bad as anyone. 20:49.580 --> 20:51.940 I'm definitely not any better than any others as far as that goes. 20:51.940 --> 20:53.060 But you know what? 20:55.860 --> 20:56.420 Sometimes... 20:56.420 --> 20:57.940 All right, Jason, you can attest to this. 20:57.980 --> 21:00.140 You've seen my show novels, my show notes. 21:00.420 --> 21:00.780 Right. 21:00.860 --> 21:05.340 I do have a note at the top that says, cut back on the foul language. 21:06.180 --> 21:06.560 Uh-huh. 21:06.960 --> 21:14.300 Every single week I put that in there, and that's only because, personally, I want to try to keep it under control. 21:14.500 --> 21:19.020 It's not because I'm trying to be on real live radio or on some other station. 21:19.020 --> 21:24.520 And that's the beauty of internet radio to me, is that I do have true freedom of speech. 21:24.840 --> 21:30.440 All I'm trying to do with the comment on there, and what I try to do with the show each week, and I'm glad you noticed that. 21:30.540 --> 21:32.200 I wish I was better, quite frankly. 21:32.280 --> 21:33.240 I slipped more than I should. 21:33.720 --> 21:36.900 But I don't want to use gratuitous profanity. 21:37.760 --> 21:42.800 You know, and gratuitous meaning pretty much every adjective being the F word. 21:43.520 --> 21:47.660 You know, oh, well, I went to the freaking store to buy a freaking Coke, and I had a freaking change, 21:47.660 --> 21:49.080 and the guy gave me a freaking attitude. 21:49.620 --> 21:53.540 That, to me, it doesn't really, you know, that, to me, is kind of a crutch. 21:53.620 --> 21:56.660 I don't really want to use pointless use of bad language. 21:56.780 --> 21:57.760 So, don't get me wrong. 21:57.800 --> 22:00.260 I'm not using internet radio so I can get away with saying bad words. 22:00.300 --> 22:01.080 It's not that at all. 22:01.080 --> 22:13.640 But, I do, however, want to be able to use the F word, or any other word, if I really strongly feel like it's going to get my point across. 22:14.160 --> 22:20.520 And, you know, Jason, I don't know if you, you feel free to disagree if you, you know, disagree with this, of course. 22:20.520 --> 22:30.460 But, I do find that there are occasions when I absolutely want, need, and I think it's more effective to drop the F bomb, or any language. 22:30.840 --> 22:33.840 I believe, truly, I believe in free speech. 22:34.580 --> 22:39.660 And when I say free speech, I don't mean the FCC can tell me what seven words I can and can't say, et cetera, et cetera. 22:39.900 --> 22:42.300 The internet, to me, is true free speech. 22:43.460 --> 22:49.160 I can come on here, and again, I'm not trying to just get away with using a bad language, you know, because it's cool and because it's fun. 22:49.160 --> 23:06.960 But, if I get pissed off at some company, or if I think there's a law or something, and again, try to stay away from politics, but if there's something that really, I think, needs to be emphasized, oh, I think the regular listeners know that I will raise my voice, I will drop some bad language, and absolutely go off. 23:07.000 --> 23:16.300 If something is that wrong, or that important, I will absolutely not hesitate to use whatever language necessary to get that point across. 23:16.300 --> 23:25.300 So, if I start using it, like, in every sentence, or something like that, then it's less important, and it becomes, you know, just throwing it around with no use whatsoever. 23:25.300 --> 23:42.620 But, I do want the option to use it and be able to exercise my real freedom of speech, which is something that makes internet radio, underground radio, hacking radio, whatever you want to refer to it, the only true form of free radio, free speech. 23:42.620 --> 23:55.700 Although, the government might, you know, they're always trying to get their hands in and limit that as well, but that's really the reason I'm not going to be on mainstream radio, you know, is because I'm not going to compromise my free speech. 23:55.800 --> 23:57.820 I'm not going to cut back something I want to say. 23:58.440 --> 24:00.020 I just will not do it. 24:00.420 --> 24:01.800 I'm not trying to do this for a living. 24:02.400 --> 24:02.900 I'm not. 24:02.980 --> 24:03.880 I don't have bias. 24:04.020 --> 24:05.640 I don't have advertising to sell. 24:05.900 --> 24:07.580 I have no reason to pull my punches. 24:07.580 --> 24:11.960 I don't have to worry about that kind of things, and that's the beauty of this. 24:12.040 --> 24:18.400 That's why I love this show and being able to have freedom of speech and say what I want. 24:19.280 --> 24:27.840 So, again, I don't know if you agree or disagree with that, or would you, in your honest opinion, and I guess I will put you on the spot, 24:27.840 --> 24:37.340 I don't mean to, but do you think that this show specifically and other underground internet shows 24:37.340 --> 24:44.100 would be better served if I did eliminate profanity, if we purposely edit, like I went back and edited out all the bad words? 24:44.560 --> 24:45.680 It depends on what you're doing it for. 24:46.140 --> 24:52.920 You know, language is a tool, like any other tool, and its purpose is to express ideas, and you can go wrong in both directions. 24:53.460 --> 24:58.220 You know, it's one thing to tell someone that they possess an excessive amount of loquaciousness, 24:58.420 --> 25:00.520 and it's another thing to tell them that they talk too much. 25:01.220 --> 25:07.340 If you push yourself towards using huge words because you just decide to use huge words and it makes you feel good, 25:07.720 --> 25:09.940 after a while you'll lose the communication. 25:10.120 --> 25:15.840 People don't want to listen to you anymore because you don't make any sense and they have to run to a thesaurus every time they hear you. 25:16.180 --> 25:17.540 Same way with profanity. 25:18.060 --> 25:19.040 Profanity is a tool. 25:19.240 --> 25:21.480 Profanity is an emotional reaction. 25:21.480 --> 25:27.640 It's a way to kind of express, in one way, it's an expression of an emotional outburst. 25:28.200 --> 25:33.600 It is a way to say, you know, this idea in mine is so big that it shocks me and it will shock you. 25:35.020 --> 25:38.480 That happens, and that's something that people do naturally. 25:38.760 --> 25:42.340 I mean, you know, take cockpit recordings when something goes wrong. 25:42.460 --> 25:44.160 You don't hear them quietly chatting. 25:44.160 --> 25:51.500 And when you have people who are faced with something that annoys them or has hurt them or bothers them, yeah, profanity comes in. 25:51.880 --> 26:00.420 The problem occurs when you have somebody using profanity as both the adjective and the noun represent a bunch of other things. 26:00.960 --> 26:05.580 Then you're just sitting there living in, you know, I mean, you can barely understand what's being said. 26:05.580 --> 26:13.200 And at the end of the day, that's as dreary as somebody speaking with the most, you know, high academic tone of voice. 26:13.540 --> 26:14.580 It's just as tiring. 26:15.400 --> 26:21.580 Personally, I think that what you have there is you have an edge, a border of your language. 26:21.700 --> 26:22.520 It goes in all directions. 26:22.640 --> 26:23.980 You'll talk about this, talk about this. 26:24.280 --> 26:29.600 You have a limitation against politics simply because personally it doesn't interest you, 26:29.600 --> 26:35.040 not because somebody who's your producer or your company said, now, lay off the politics this election year. 26:35.120 --> 26:36.000 We don't want to get in trouble. 26:36.720 --> 26:38.020 You just say, I just don't feel like that. 26:38.240 --> 26:39.620 That's not where my show should be. 26:39.680 --> 26:42.580 So you've made that choice as opposed to it being made for you. 26:42.860 --> 26:44.580 Same thing with profanity. 26:44.900 --> 26:50.100 You know, in your manner of speaking, in your manner of running the show, 26:50.720 --> 26:56.680 you hear a bunch of profanity, a stream of profanity to describe something that doesn't even require that, 26:57.040 --> 26:58.540 and it just sounds poor to you. 26:58.540 --> 27:03.280 So in the same way you're not going to record this show at, you know, 8 kilohertz, 27:03.500 --> 27:08.280 you're not going to go ahead and record this show laden with a bunch of useless profanity. 27:08.400 --> 27:10.920 So, you know, I understand why people do it. 27:11.060 --> 27:12.260 I understand how they express it. 27:12.300 --> 27:15.780 For some people that's how they express things, but I can also see, you know. 27:15.920 --> 27:20.740 Well, I think that's just a fantastic parallel using, you know, 27:20.800 --> 27:24.760 when you said people using these long words and just over, you know, 27:24.880 --> 27:26.080 because I've met people like that. 27:26.080 --> 27:31.180 They think if they use a bunch of long words and these extra strange vocabulary that they're somehow impressing you. 27:31.460 --> 27:32.380 No, you're boring me. 27:33.120 --> 27:33.300 Right. 27:33.300 --> 27:34.180 Okay, I got it. 27:34.200 --> 27:35.980 So you learned a couple extra vocabulary words. 27:36.060 --> 27:36.500 Good for you. 27:36.600 --> 27:37.280 I can read, too. 27:37.340 --> 27:37.840 No problem. 27:38.440 --> 27:40.660 You know, gratuitous use of those is no different. 27:40.740 --> 27:43.300 That's a great comparison to, well, to vulgarity. 27:44.120 --> 27:47.300 Overuse of anything like that becomes detracting instead of... 27:47.300 --> 27:52.900 Yeah, I mean, you will hear radio show hosts who want to express these things. 27:53.140 --> 27:57.680 They have to bend over backwards and provide, even though they want to use an expletive, they can't. 27:57.920 --> 28:04.900 And in some ways it's entertaining, but it's entertaining only in how much they have to do these poor seal tricks to be able to keep their jobs. 28:05.600 --> 28:07.080 And, you know, what they're allowed to say. 28:07.160 --> 28:08.040 And you can even sense it. 28:08.080 --> 28:09.980 You can sense them trying to work their way around it. 28:10.300 --> 28:12.180 And you know that's not what they want to live like. 28:12.220 --> 28:16.920 In fact, when you see them off the air talking at, like, events where they're not on the air, 28:16.920 --> 28:20.160 they curse as much as I expect they would. 28:20.680 --> 28:21.600 It's just they can't do it. 28:21.800 --> 28:25.800 You know, they have this suit they have to put on, and you don't want to put the suit on when you go to work. 28:26.240 --> 28:27.380 Yeah, and you know what? 28:27.900 --> 28:34.640 Again, that's, to me, the beauty of Internet Radio and the beauty of doing this show is nobody's going to tell me what I can and can't say. 28:34.880 --> 28:35.100 Right. 28:35.500 --> 28:37.580 Well, you know, in a way, the listeners do. 28:38.300 --> 28:39.500 You know, the listeners do. 28:39.500 --> 28:43.640 I try to cut back on some of my language because I know that there are certain audience members that, 28:44.340 --> 28:46.140 A, it's inappropriate for me to speak that way, 28:47.000 --> 28:52.300 and, B, it's unprofessional and it does detract from some points if I overuse of it. 28:52.300 --> 29:03.000 But at the same time, I am absolutely going to use it when I feel it's appropriate or when I feel just so overcome with something that it slips or it accidentally happens. 29:03.080 --> 29:05.380 I'm not going to hold back, and that's great. 29:05.620 --> 29:06.400 Limitless radio. 29:06.560 --> 29:12.260 That's what Internet, and that's why there's this huge boom in Internet radio right now, not just hacking radio. 29:12.780 --> 29:20.780 You know, and I guess I should give a little quick shout-out to Slip Mode again for giving his great speech at the Hope Conference in New York about hacking radio. 29:20.780 --> 29:21.980 It's not just hacking radio. 29:22.060 --> 29:25.340 There's lots of online radio shows in the past two to three years. 29:25.440 --> 29:29.180 There's tons of it online, lots of talk shows that are popping up. 29:29.240 --> 29:31.440 It's because we don't have limits. 29:31.520 --> 29:40.600 This is an emerging new medium that lets people get their message out without all the bias that exists in public media. 29:41.140 --> 29:43.260 You know, we've – anyway, that's a dead horse. 29:43.360 --> 29:47.280 Let me wrap up the email here by saying, first of all, again, I apologize. 29:47.280 --> 29:49.740 The person who wrote this in, I'm answering the question. 29:49.860 --> 29:51.280 I'm not in any way attacking you. 29:51.360 --> 29:52.500 I appreciate your offer. 29:52.740 --> 29:56.760 So please don't misunderstand that I'm mad or attacking. 29:57.040 --> 29:58.360 Don't tell me what I can and can't say. 29:58.420 --> 29:59.100 That's not it at all. 29:59.180 --> 30:08.220 I just want people to understand the reason why I'm not going to be on most FM stations or real live radio stations, you say. 30:08.220 --> 30:13.560 Okay, first of all, you have my permission to put it on the air, and I'll even go a step further. 30:13.900 --> 30:23.220 You absolutely have my permission to bleep out some of my more – my bigger outbursts. 30:23.860 --> 30:26.220 You have permission to bleep out any bad language I made. 30:26.300 --> 30:29.680 I absolutely give you full permission to do that because I'm not naive. 30:29.860 --> 30:33.220 I do understand that to get it on the radio, they're not going to let me do that. 30:33.220 --> 30:40.440 So bleeping it, I give you full permission to do that, not a problem whatsoever if you think the show is still going to be effective and good without those. 30:41.200 --> 30:44.480 And I like to think, again, I try not to use them gratuitously. 30:44.600 --> 30:47.300 I try not to just throw them around during the normal portions of the show. 30:47.480 --> 30:58.100 But when I do get on one of those rants because we're talking about how much I hate AOL or how much I can't stand real media or some of these other companies or products, et cetera, 30:58.100 --> 31:05.220 if you feel that it's still going to be worth listening to when you start bleeping out some of that stuff, you absolutely have my permission to do it. 31:06.060 --> 31:10.240 Contact me again, and I'll give you all the information you need if you want to pick up the live stream. 31:11.080 --> 31:14.960 I'll send you MP3 files that you can stream a day late or something like that. 31:15.460 --> 31:16.680 Not a problem, absolutely. 31:16.900 --> 31:20.560 I actually – I thank you for having that interest and being willing to do that. 31:20.560 --> 31:27.000 So that's really the message for this – to wrap up the email on that kind of message. 31:27.760 --> 31:32.240 I'm doing this show – I don't know if this is pompous for me to say this. 31:32.780 --> 31:34.880 I'm doing this show the way I want to do the show. 31:36.260 --> 31:39.820 And because it's on the Internet, I have the freedom to make that decision. 31:40.980 --> 31:46.920 Just to add to that, one of the things that I encounter a lot with my different projects, especially my documentary project, 31:46.920 --> 31:51.780 which I guess we'll touch on later, is people naturally say to me, well, you're working on this documentary, 31:52.320 --> 31:53.780 so when is it going to be on PBS? 31:54.500 --> 31:56.340 Or when is it going to be on the Discovery Channel? 31:56.580 --> 32:01.840 And I often say to them, you know, that's not the logical end of a project like this. 32:02.220 --> 32:06.020 One of the things that – you know, you take it as the compliment it is, 32:06.260 --> 32:12.740 which is people experience media that's gotten into their homes and into their lives and their cars, 32:12.740 --> 32:19.400 and they think of that as the stage, and they think that anybody who's gotten on that stage is now a success. 32:19.960 --> 32:22.760 If you're not on that stage, you're not a success. 32:22.980 --> 32:29.640 If you're not playing at Carnegie Hall and you're playing at a local, you know, pub, you're not a success. 32:30.180 --> 32:31.120 You're just somebody. 32:31.120 --> 32:35.780 And it's natural for people who hear these shows, and especially when they really like them, 32:35.820 --> 32:40.240 to go, okay, so when do you get your reward, your logical end? 32:40.240 --> 32:43.060 When do you end up on, you know, Clear Channel? 32:43.200 --> 32:45.280 When can I tune in my local radio station? 32:45.360 --> 32:47.440 And there you are because you're so great, I want that. 32:47.600 --> 32:51.260 And it's tough to explain to people that it's not set up like a flagpole. 32:51.460 --> 32:53.680 It's not we're down here at the bottom of the flagpole, 32:54.000 --> 32:57.760 and the longer you go up towards the top of the flagpole where the networks are, 32:58.280 --> 33:02.880 that that's the nicest view and the greatest time and when you'll be the happiest person. 33:03.200 --> 33:05.440 It's more like this huge disk. 33:06.140 --> 33:09.600 And maybe once it was like a flagpole, but now it's a disk. 33:09.600 --> 33:11.580 The networks are on one side of the disk. 33:11.920 --> 33:14.680 They're invariant parts to each other so that there's some variation. 33:14.860 --> 33:19.460 But there's this whole other way of existing and expressing yourself and getting it out to everyone 33:19.460 --> 33:26.240 that, you know, simply gets rid of that need to have to be on that one stage. 33:26.420 --> 33:29.300 And you can be on any other part of the disk and happy with yourself. 33:29.460 --> 33:30.340 You don't need there. 33:30.780 --> 33:33.940 So you're running Binary Revolution. 33:34.400 --> 33:35.120 You are happy. 33:35.120 --> 33:38.640 You don't spend every day saying, man, when am I going to make it? 33:39.320 --> 33:40.640 When does the fun begin? 33:41.440 --> 33:41.800 Oh, yeah. 33:41.940 --> 33:42.540 I mean, jeez. 33:42.980 --> 33:44.960 I'm already – the fun's going on, man. 33:44.980 --> 33:47.480 The fun is – see, the reward is the show. 33:47.940 --> 33:48.920 That's all I need. 33:49.000 --> 33:50.400 That's all I – that's it. 33:50.800 --> 33:54.760 Yeah, at the end of the day, if someone who makes the show, that's where your happiness is. 33:54.760 --> 33:59.740 And if the thing goes up on the Internet and next thing you know, it's playing in a cable 33:59.740 --> 34:02.980 channel somewhere in another country and a million people are seeing it, great. 34:03.200 --> 34:03.720 That's great. 34:04.040 --> 34:06.160 But you don't sit there going, oh, where's that cable channel? 34:06.440 --> 34:06.740 Yeah. 34:06.960 --> 34:10.760 You don't check your time, your watch going, man, where's the check? 34:11.100 --> 34:12.860 I was going to say, where's my royalties? 34:13.060 --> 34:13.300 Yeah. 34:13.680 --> 34:14.680 Time to sue somebody. 34:15.500 --> 34:15.700 Yeah. 34:15.800 --> 34:18.420 I mean, I find out all the time about stuff I've done being somewhere. 34:18.680 --> 34:20.940 And it's like, oh, that's, you know, great. 34:21.040 --> 34:21.720 That's cool, yeah. 34:21.720 --> 34:25.100 You don't go like, oh, finally, now's the payoff. 34:25.720 --> 34:28.980 Well, yeah, my reaction is like, wow, somebody else found that interesting? 34:30.000 --> 34:31.780 No, that's the way you've got to take it. 34:31.960 --> 34:32.840 And it's natural. 34:32.920 --> 34:37.660 Like I said, it's natural when you're raised up with something to think that what that, 34:37.800 --> 34:40.340 you know, that thing in your life is the end of it. 34:40.600 --> 34:46.820 And I don't dislike the networks like a lot of people here in the shows do. 34:46.940 --> 34:49.860 I don't dislike them, but I also don't treat them with the same pedestal. 34:49.860 --> 34:54.280 I don't say, you know, oh, well, they said it was X, so it's got to be X. 34:54.820 --> 34:55.440 Oh, well, yeah. 34:55.820 --> 34:56.820 I don't apply. 34:57.320 --> 34:58.520 I don't give them extra weight. 34:58.640 --> 35:00.680 But I also say, okay, well, they do their little show. 35:01.200 --> 35:05.000 You know, it's like the store down the street sells this kind of product. 35:05.080 --> 35:06.040 It doesn't mean it's the only one. 35:06.100 --> 35:07.540 It just means, oh, yeah, okay, they're selling it. 35:07.560 --> 35:07.900 That's nice. 35:08.060 --> 35:08.260 Right. 35:08.320 --> 35:10.440 Well, and this is kind of a good tangent. 35:10.540 --> 35:11.620 I'm glad you brought this up. 35:11.660 --> 35:12.800 We'll kind of freestyle this a little bit. 35:12.800 --> 35:17.480 But I don't, like, hate the networks either. 35:17.700 --> 35:19.540 I just recognize their limitations. 35:19.740 --> 35:22.060 I acknowledge them for what they are. 35:22.320 --> 35:22.440 Yeah. 35:22.520 --> 35:27.120 And that is limited in their scope and obviously biased. 35:27.580 --> 35:29.240 So I don't hate them individually. 35:29.440 --> 35:32.740 I'm the guy that Duel always makes fun of for watching American Idol. 35:32.740 --> 35:35.360 Well, you know, I watch some TV on occasion. 35:35.860 --> 35:42.420 But the thing is, you have to watch all of it together, listen to all of it in context, 35:42.700 --> 35:47.920 and form your own opinion based on all of the aspects of all of the different channels 35:47.920 --> 35:49.820 and all the different biases combined. 35:50.700 --> 35:54.040 You know, so individually, I don't put any of them up as a pedestal, 35:54.120 --> 35:55.800 and I also don't condemn any of them. 35:56.200 --> 36:02.040 I just say you have to take it all in context and balance everything that you see. 36:02.040 --> 36:03.260 Yeah, that's pretty much it. 36:03.420 --> 36:03.900 I mean, you know. 36:04.780 --> 36:10.720 So, yeah, I don't want you to think or any of the listeners think I hate some specific channel or something. 36:10.780 --> 36:14.600 I know a lot of people, I probably shouldn't even mention this, but I'm going to. 36:14.640 --> 36:15.580 I'm going to regret this. 36:15.920 --> 36:17.580 I know a lot of people hate Fox News. 36:18.540 --> 36:20.000 You know, they just despise it. 36:20.340 --> 36:25.220 To me, okay, it's another channel with their spin on things and their different viewpoints. 36:25.460 --> 36:26.160 I agree with some. 36:26.200 --> 36:28.000 I disagree with some, just like every other channel. 36:28.300 --> 36:30.940 But it gives me an alternative to offset the others. 36:30.940 --> 36:35.160 So, yeah, it's all mixing it together. 36:35.480 --> 36:36.900 And occasionally you need to know what the weather is. 36:37.520 --> 36:37.920 Well. 36:38.480 --> 36:39.580 So, there you go. 36:39.920 --> 36:42.640 Just a little flip over and there's what the weather and time is, and you're done. 36:43.000 --> 36:44.100 Well, that's what the internet's for. 36:44.300 --> 36:44.540 Yep. 36:44.720 --> 36:45.600 Weather and porn. 36:45.960 --> 36:46.140 Yep. 36:46.860 --> 36:47.500 Oh, I'm sorry. 36:47.640 --> 36:48.960 I'm sorry, an internet radio. 36:49.060 --> 36:49.480 Did I forget? 36:49.640 --> 36:50.220 Ah, crap. 36:50.600 --> 36:51.020 Too late. 36:51.660 --> 36:52.560 We'll edit that out. 36:52.800 --> 36:53.000 Yep. 36:53.340 --> 36:53.480 Yeah. 36:53.480 --> 36:58.340 And actually, we'll segue into actually our show and tell, our projects. 36:58.540 --> 37:04.620 I got one quick email just because this is going to segue into the show and tell and to our main topic tonight. 37:05.200 --> 37:07.660 And this is an email from Tech Freak who says, 37:07.660 --> 37:32.740 And again, I just told you basically this is going to be our main topic. 37:32.740 --> 37:38.400 We're going to retouch on this tonight because both of us have some experience, again, in this. 37:38.520 --> 37:45.620 But before we do that, quickly talk about our personal projects, the show and tell portion of the show, as you know we call it. 37:46.380 --> 37:54.520 And I'll go quickly first, very shortly, because in preparation for the show while doing some research, 37:54.600 --> 37:56.480 and I can't spell preparation right in my show notes. 37:57.440 --> 37:58.680 Preparation as in H. 37:58.780 --> 37:58.920 Okay. 37:58.920 --> 38:02.860 In preparation for the show, I have to say, let's see, where's my notes here? 38:02.880 --> 38:03.300 I got lost. 38:03.400 --> 38:03.540 Okay. 38:04.420 --> 38:12.880 In preparation for the show, I did a lot of research on AugVorbis because we've talked about it before on the show, 38:13.000 --> 38:17.300 and I at one point wanted to, and I have always wanted to put everything up in Aug, 38:17.340 --> 38:19.000 but I just haven't quite gotten around to it. 38:19.040 --> 38:24.700 Now, I'm kind of rededicated the more I read about it and the more I found out about the way it works and did some comparisons. 38:24.700 --> 38:31.660 On their page, they have some comparisons of their compression versus MP3 versus Windows Media versus – 38:31.660 --> 38:38.680 were you telling me that there was like 12 or more different formats of – or was it lossless compression? 38:38.840 --> 38:40.740 12 of lossless compression alone. 38:40.840 --> 38:46.480 There's probably even more of lossy compression, which we probably should hold off until we go into that part, I guess. 38:46.820 --> 38:46.920 Yeah. 38:46.920 --> 38:50.280 But anyway, point being, that's what I've been – I've been researching this week, that kind of stuff, 38:50.320 --> 38:55.080 because I'm kind of rededicated and trying to do that again and going to experiment a little bit with AugVorbis, 38:55.160 --> 39:02.680 especially now that Audacity, the software that we use to record the show, has native support for that built in in the latest version. 39:02.860 --> 39:07.300 I'm going to see how that works because I've heard that it's much, much better in this newer version. 39:07.420 --> 39:08.340 I haven't tried it yet. 39:09.000 --> 39:12.580 So that has been pretty much it, and I was doing – I was in Orlando. 39:12.580 --> 39:20.080 Some of the regular listeners know that I go to Universal Studios, and I guess as an aside, look for – a little pimp, 39:20.180 --> 39:28.720 look for an article on that exact topic in Blacklisted 411 Magazine coming soon, where I was up in Orlando for the whole weekend. 39:30.020 --> 39:33.600 And doing – theme parks are such a great place to social engineer people. 39:34.400 --> 39:41.100 These people are like standing at their post all day, bored to tears, and like – 39:41.100 --> 39:47.060 you can go to these people and just kind of be nice with them, kind of joke with them, ask them questions. 39:47.240 --> 39:50.400 They're just so raring to give you information to talk. 39:50.740 --> 39:53.300 You can find out so much cool stuff. 39:53.440 --> 39:56.560 So I did a lot of social engineering up in Orlando. 39:56.660 --> 39:58.940 That's how I got a lot of information to write the article that I wrote. 39:59.060 --> 40:02.860 I might have enough to do a follow-up, as a matter of fact, or maybe I'll just update that one. 40:02.860 --> 40:10.380 But a lot of cool information I found out about Universal Studios and the way they work and some of the things there. 40:10.660 --> 40:11.100 And you know what? 40:11.140 --> 40:15.080 Silly stuff like getting the employee discount when you buy something in the store. 40:16.480 --> 40:17.800 That's always nice and helpful. 40:20.800 --> 40:23.460 And I was – this is kind of an in-joke. 40:23.460 --> 40:29.980 I actually – the American Idol auditions are in Orlando this year, but they're next weekend, unfortunately. 40:30.820 --> 40:32.920 Well, this upcoming weekend, I should say. 40:32.960 --> 40:33.960 So I missed those. 40:34.480 --> 40:36.040 Oh, damn. 40:36.760 --> 40:37.420 I blew it. 40:38.080 --> 40:38.920 I completely – 40:38.920 --> 40:42.380 You can walk around and harass some of the contestants saying later when the guy wins, 40:42.580 --> 40:43.180 you see him? 40:43.280 --> 40:44.840 I annoyed the heck out of him in line. 40:45.140 --> 40:45.580 Exactly. 40:45.760 --> 40:50.500 I had – there were so many – I was just – I had so many ideas and so many funny things that I could do. 40:50.500 --> 40:58.700 And it's like – we were actually planning on doing this the weekend of the tryout so that we could do the Universal 40:58.700 --> 41:00.240 and still go have some fun here. 41:00.760 --> 41:04.660 We were actually – a friend and I, we were going to go up. 41:05.140 --> 41:07.740 And this is probably not funny as a story, but I'll tell it anyway. 41:07.840 --> 41:08.880 It's probably something more visual. 41:09.100 --> 41:10.480 But we were going to go up. 41:11.420 --> 41:15.260 And we were going to dress – we were going to dress in wigs with dreadlocks. 41:15.360 --> 41:16.820 And we were going to go in as Milli Vanilli. 41:16.820 --> 41:20.960 We were going to intentionally be the ones that they joke and make fun of. 41:21.280 --> 41:22.720 We were going to go in and do Milli Vanilli. 41:22.980 --> 41:28.300 But what was going to make it extra funny besides the fact that it's these two white dudes dressed up in dreadlocks 41:28.300 --> 41:29.760 and everything doing a Milli Vanilli song, 41:30.260 --> 41:34.060 the other super funny part was we were going to go in with a tape recorder in our jacket 41:34.060 --> 41:36.500 and lip sync like Milli Vanilli did 41:36.500 --> 41:39.680 and just see the reaction from the judges. 41:41.000 --> 41:43.480 But, ah, alas, it's not going to happen. 41:43.480 --> 41:46.200 That's a shame. 41:46.520 --> 41:48.540 We also – I was going to do a little culture jamming. 41:48.580 --> 41:49.280 I had this idea. 41:50.700 --> 41:55.320 And I don't know if this is – this is probably not a nice thing to do, 41:55.400 --> 41:57.040 but I'm going to say – tell this story anyway. 41:57.520 --> 41:59.140 I was going to actually go out. 41:59.840 --> 42:02.800 Because for those of you who don't know the way American Idol works, 42:03.700 --> 42:07.100 I can't believe somehow I'm talking about American Idol on a hacking radio show. 42:07.340 --> 42:08.460 But I'm going to tie this in. 42:08.460 --> 42:08.980 I promise you. 42:09.020 --> 42:10.220 This is a culture jamming thing. 42:10.920 --> 42:14.780 I was going to go there, and what happens is the people that win or that make it to the next round, 42:14.840 --> 42:18.540 they give them this little yellow sheet of paper, like the golden ticket to the next round. 42:18.920 --> 42:22.440 And they come running out of the studio, and they show it off to all the other people in line going, 42:22.520 --> 42:23.320 ha, ha, I made it. 42:23.340 --> 42:24.180 You guys just suck. 42:24.220 --> 42:24.900 You're not going to make it. 42:24.940 --> 42:27.380 That kind of – I was going to make up a fake one 42:27.380 --> 42:32.220 and walk around through the line outside of the building because the line like wraps around the block 42:32.220 --> 42:33.180 and all over the place. 42:33.660 --> 42:36.480 I was going to walk out there with a card and act like I made it 42:36.480 --> 42:40.480 and talk to people and get them to sing on camera and perform and stuff like that, 42:40.760 --> 42:42.420 acting like, oh, I've already made it. 42:42.460 --> 42:43.260 Let me give you some pointers. 42:43.340 --> 42:44.060 That kind of angle. 42:44.060 --> 42:51.940 And at the same time, take it a step further, possibly posing or insinuating that I had a hookup for them 42:51.940 --> 42:54.260 and say, and this is where the culture jamming comes in. 42:54.320 --> 42:55.980 I really think I could do this. 42:56.480 --> 42:59.340 I really am good with talking to people and convincing people. 42:59.400 --> 43:00.620 I really think I could have done this. 43:01.020 --> 43:04.920 Go to several people in line, many different points, 100 people or more, 43:04.920 --> 43:08.840 and had them audition for me with the camera and stuff there, 43:08.920 --> 43:11.480 act like, you know, because I look like I belong with the yellow ticket 43:11.480 --> 43:13.160 and the number and everything and the winner, 43:13.700 --> 43:16.100 and then kind of whisper to them, wow, you're really good. 43:16.500 --> 43:20.200 Listen, tell them when you go in there to the judges, say, Stank Dog sent me. 43:21.380 --> 43:24.560 And tell them, and they'll give you an extra consideration because they know, 43:24.640 --> 43:26.480 they liked me a lot and they know that I had an insight. 43:26.480 --> 43:29.560 I could even say I'm a producer or something like that, 43:29.580 --> 43:30.960 but I probably go with a contestant angle. 43:30.960 --> 43:37.000 And if I do that to 100 or more people and they all go into the audition room 43:37.000 --> 43:40.420 and say, hi, my name is such and such Stank Dog sent me, 43:40.920 --> 43:43.120 there's no way they can't put that on TV. 43:44.660 --> 43:46.040 The judges are going to be like, 43:46.120 --> 43:49.960 who in the hell is this Stank Dog that everybody keeps talking about? 43:50.900 --> 43:53.840 It's got to bother them if enough people go in there and say that. 43:53.920 --> 43:55.500 I really think I could pull that off. 43:55.620 --> 43:58.300 You think I could or couldn't do that? 43:58.580 --> 43:59.300 You think that's reaching? 43:59.300 --> 44:03.440 You know what the best part is with television is you never know. 44:03.920 --> 44:05.520 You never know what these people are going to pull out. 44:05.920 --> 44:12.960 And, you know, one guy, you know, when John Belushi was auditioning for Saturday Night Live, 44:13.260 --> 44:15.600 he was stuck in the line with everyone else and didn't want to be, 44:15.900 --> 44:17.500 and he just started storming back and forth. 44:17.720 --> 44:19.600 He had his samurai outfit. 44:19.880 --> 44:22.140 He auditioned by playing his samurai guy. 44:22.540 --> 44:24.860 He just stormed back and forth and back and forth 44:24.860 --> 44:27.940 and then just burst through the doors at a time he wasn't supposed to, 44:28.240 --> 44:31.080 walked up and just gave them his performance and then stormed out. 44:31.640 --> 44:33.040 And that's what got him the job. 44:33.720 --> 44:36.040 And so you can't predict what's going to happen. 44:36.320 --> 44:41.260 And somebody who's going out of his way to cause chaos in the line, 44:41.260 --> 44:44.140 I mean, they just go, that's the little extra we need. 44:44.260 --> 44:45.100 Put him on the air. 44:45.400 --> 44:46.940 Yeah, well, I don't think they'd put me on, 44:47.040 --> 44:50.600 but I think they would show the clips of, you know, like the narrator would say, 44:50.640 --> 44:53.960 or what's his name, Ryan Seacrest, the narrator, whatever, would say something like, 44:54.240 --> 44:56.420 we noticed a strange phenomenon in Orlando. 44:56.980 --> 44:59.860 Apparently, Stank Dog had sent quite a few people to the audition. 44:59.940 --> 45:01.440 They show a bunch of clips of people going, 45:01.500 --> 45:03.400 Stank Dog sent me, Stank Dog sent me, Stank Dog sent me. 45:03.600 --> 45:05.260 And then Simon or one of the judges going, 45:05.740 --> 45:08.040 who in the bloody hell is Stank Dog? 45:09.320 --> 45:10.860 I really think I could pull that off. 45:11.000 --> 45:12.840 Well, I guess it's not going to happen. 45:13.240 --> 45:14.240 I just went up last weekend. 45:14.320 --> 45:15.140 I'm not going to make it up again. 45:15.680 --> 45:18.960 If anybody wants to try that, I think if you're good enough, you can pull that off. 45:19.040 --> 45:21.440 I think somebody, if you want to steal that idea, go for it. 45:21.440 --> 45:22.460 I think you can pull that off. 45:22.700 --> 45:24.420 It only works if you say Stank Dog sent me. 45:24.420 --> 45:25.660 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 45:25.760 --> 45:26.300 That's the ticket. 45:26.460 --> 45:26.820 Yeah. 45:27.420 --> 45:28.360 Your own handle, please. 45:28.580 --> 45:31.640 Anyway, I'm sorry, that was a weird tangent to go off on. 45:31.640 --> 45:33.900 But anyway, that was my weekend. 45:34.140 --> 45:36.780 I mentioned in the forums I'd be unaccessible for the weekend. 45:36.920 --> 45:38.260 And that's really what I was doing up in Orlando. 45:38.360 --> 45:40.640 They got hit pretty rough by the hurricane, by the way. 45:40.760 --> 45:45.400 A lot of people emailed me and instant messaged me asking if I was okay through the hurricane. 45:45.740 --> 45:47.420 And luckily it missed us. 45:47.680 --> 45:48.340 It went north. 45:48.420 --> 45:49.680 It just shot right over top of me. 45:49.740 --> 45:50.640 I'm down in South Florida. 45:51.100 --> 45:55.300 But up in Orlando, there were signs down, trees across the highway in parts. 45:55.400 --> 45:56.340 Most of it had been cleaned up. 45:56.600 --> 46:00.140 But trees down all over the place, signs that were broken and shattered. 46:00.140 --> 46:02.300 The roofs, part of the roofs were torn off. 46:02.700 --> 46:04.140 I talked to some waitresses in the restaurants. 46:04.240 --> 46:05.800 They said there were still places with no power. 46:06.200 --> 46:09.100 So, yeah, I'm very lucky down here. 46:09.160 --> 46:10.100 We didn't really get anything. 46:10.260 --> 46:13.460 So thanks to everybody who sent an email or asking about how I was. 46:13.520 --> 46:15.040 I appreciate that on a personal note. 46:15.780 --> 46:17.680 Now, anyway, on to you. 46:18.000 --> 46:19.320 Gosh, how much time do we have? 46:19.420 --> 46:21.340 We still got a good half hour of time. 46:21.400 --> 46:21.960 So no problem. 46:22.240 --> 46:22.480 Okay. 46:22.480 --> 46:25.160 So now, you mentioned it earlier. 46:25.260 --> 46:30.780 Now, let's go into some more detail about it without sounding like a total pimping session of the documentary. 46:31.260 --> 46:37.980 But for those of them who don't know, for those of the listeners who do not know, what documentary specifically are you referring to? 46:38.040 --> 46:39.620 What is the documentary you're working on? 46:39.620 --> 46:41.660 Okay, I'll give you the ultra-contest version. 46:42.100 --> 46:46.320 The last three years, I've been working on a documentary about dial-up bulletin board systems. 46:46.760 --> 46:48.700 It's at bbsdocumentary.com. 46:49.040 --> 46:52.940 Basically, I run a site full of old BBS text files called textfiles.com. 46:53.440 --> 46:57.680 And at some point, I started putting up lists of old BBSs. 46:57.820 --> 46:59.420 And this got a lot of attention from people. 46:59.620 --> 47:02.040 And I suddenly realized the story hadn't been told. 47:02.040 --> 47:12.860 And that it wasn't going to be told in a way that I wanted to because as somebody who grew up through dial-up bulletin board systems as opposed to the web forums we have now, there was this whole history that occurred. 47:13.140 --> 47:14.860 And I thought, well, I'll do it. 47:15.040 --> 47:20.980 And three years later, 200 interviews, 250 hours of footage later, I'm putting this thing together. 47:21.240 --> 47:23.220 And it's going to be a three-DVD set. 47:23.340 --> 47:24.860 And it's going to be coming out this year. 47:25.060 --> 47:27.100 And it's just been an incredible amount of work. 47:27.840 --> 47:28.820 Oh, I can imagine. 47:29.100 --> 47:30.240 And it's one of these things. 47:30.240 --> 47:33.400 Because I certainly enjoyed doing it. 47:33.500 --> 47:34.680 I learned a lot of things I wouldn't have. 47:34.800 --> 47:37.200 I traveled to a lot of states I would have never set foot in before. 47:37.440 --> 47:39.620 And I met a lot of people I would have never had the chance to. 47:39.840 --> 47:41.320 So it was great. 47:41.880 --> 47:48.100 And the problem, of course, is that when you spend that much time on something, you can talk about it for hours. 47:48.260 --> 47:55.680 And I certainly don't want to do that to this audience, especially because very little of that specific part has anything to do with the main topic. 47:55.680 --> 48:07.240 But I will say that one of the things that I picked up from this was how important it was to pick up the stories from people, from people who have been through something. 48:07.400 --> 48:11.380 Because without those stories, you end up with a very dry history. 48:11.380 --> 48:22.020 And as we've discussed, you and I have variant opinions on a lot of different things, which is the way it should be, because you don't want to have Stank Dog and Stank Dog Jr. on the show. 48:22.020 --> 48:28.480 But, you know, I put a lot of weight in hacker radio, like I put it in a lot of other things. 48:28.740 --> 48:38.620 I am one of those people who actually thinks live journal is a good thing, thinks that blogs are a good thing, because in all cases they are taking snapshots of history. 48:38.740 --> 48:44.440 Now, that's a purpose and a need that a historian has and that people who study history have. 48:44.620 --> 48:46.680 But it's not something that people themselves need. 48:46.680 --> 48:52.080 In other words, it's very dumb for somebody to be doing a radio show because they want to save history. 48:52.400 --> 48:53.120 That's kind of dumb. 48:53.400 --> 49:00.980 They should be doing it because they enjoy speaking, they have subjects, they have thoughts they want to get out, and they can express it through their voice and through calling other people. 49:01.500 --> 49:02.720 They shouldn't do it for the other reasons. 49:02.880 --> 49:04.700 Now, for guys like me, it's a bonanza. 49:04.980 --> 49:11.200 It's people going out of their way to say, hi, I'm an example of somebody in 2004 who's really into computers. 49:11.540 --> 49:13.520 Here's what I sound like, and here's what's on my mind. 49:13.520 --> 49:18.040 That's of interest to me historically, and with any luck, it's of interest to the listeners. 49:18.640 --> 49:19.240 We can always hope. 49:19.560 --> 49:20.140 Yeah, hope. 49:20.580 --> 49:21.720 It's always a nice bonus. 49:21.860 --> 49:23.320 I'm still waiting for that first download. 49:23.320 --> 49:45.180 So in doing this documentary, I basically went out and spoke to 200 people, of which 30 are probably what we would think of as pioneers or heroes or whatever you want to call them, the creator of World War IV, of Phytonet BBSs, of Xmodem, of the first BBS, of the fourth BBS, of the creator of TCPIP, and so on. 49:45.260 --> 49:49.240 People who made a difference technologically or in creating things. 49:49.240 --> 49:54.280 But I also spoke to 150 people who just happened to use a BBS. 49:54.660 --> 50:05.320 Some of them were huge multi-line affairs that they ran, and some people just used them and were excited that somebody like me would be talking about them and wanted to give their talk about it. 50:05.320 --> 50:16.900 So because, to me, bulletin board systems and now forums are not composed of pioneers like, say, you know, the space program. 50:17.100 --> 50:20.440 You can go, well, here are the engineers and here are the astronauts. 50:21.080 --> 50:23.580 You know, you have the people charging forth. 50:23.700 --> 50:31.000 With BBS, it's what really made it good were just the people, people whose lives had nothing to do with computers, who ran out and bought a Commodore 64, 50:31.000 --> 50:37.300 and they called up a few bulletin board systems, and they became this whole other person and lived this whole other life online. 50:37.500 --> 50:41.260 And it was this amazing time, and they remember it, and they had so many stories to give to me. 50:41.680 --> 50:44.800 So in doing this, I got some of those stories. 50:45.040 --> 50:48.100 And so I played some footage of it at DEF CON. 50:48.480 --> 50:50.560 I'd been speaking about this on and off for a couple of years. 50:50.860 --> 50:52.620 At DEF CON, I played 16 minutes of it. 50:52.660 --> 50:55.620 The 16 minutes was pretty well received, I think. 50:55.620 --> 51:04.560 The final documentary is actually a mini-series of six documentaries, perhaps seven, which will work out to be somewhere between six and seven hours. 51:05.520 --> 51:05.880 Wow. 51:05.940 --> 51:07.260 That's why it's on DVDs. 51:07.560 --> 51:13.600 It's because the story is so vast, I wanted to make sure all the stories were covered properly. 51:13.740 --> 51:18.280 Otherwise, you end up, you know, if you do a documentary on the car, how do you get, you know, 51:18.280 --> 51:27.820 Henry Ford in with people who juice up rental cars in, you know, 2004 to rally, you know, the story couldn't fit them. 51:28.080 --> 51:30.520 You'd have to do two minutes here, two minutes there. 51:30.940 --> 51:35.260 Right, and I'm actually going to come back to that at kind of the end. 51:35.260 --> 51:40.820 I want to come back and tie that in to the end of our main topic tonight as far as how much material there is 51:40.820 --> 51:48.840 and how do you distribute such a large, well, not file, but group of files, a large amount of material, you know, 51:48.940 --> 51:56.900 and ironically, in a comparison to the BBS days when files were tiny and everything was text and nasty and all that, 51:57.320 --> 52:03.800 it's kind of a little irony there that now there's this huge documentary about this, you know, this tiny phenomenon. 52:03.800 --> 52:06.140 Well, not tiny, you know, you know what I mean. 52:06.440 --> 52:08.060 It's both tiny and huge. 52:08.180 --> 52:08.620 Exactly. 52:08.680 --> 52:09.460 Like everything else. 52:09.460 --> 52:14.600 And just, I think, I don't know if I'm crossing a line here. 52:14.640 --> 52:20.360 We'll edit this out later too, but you and I, you and I are, can I safely say we're around the same age? 52:20.520 --> 52:21.040 Are you cool? 52:21.040 --> 52:21.880 We're around the same age. 52:21.900 --> 52:22.780 Okay, are you cool with that? 52:23.080 --> 52:27.720 And therefore, I, my point being, I do have the same appreciation. 52:28.320 --> 52:30.820 I just wanted to reiterate that I grew up with that too. 52:30.820 --> 52:32.280 I had the Commodore 64. 52:32.480 --> 52:33.640 I dialed the BBSs. 52:33.700 --> 52:35.680 I know exactly what you're talking about. 52:36.300 --> 52:37.720 You know, I remember Wildcat. 52:37.720 --> 52:39.400 I remember the doors. 52:39.520 --> 52:41.780 I remember the, the, oh, the trivia game. 52:41.860 --> 52:50.400 When a 300 baud modem, a coupler that you had to put the phone down inside of and go on and play the trivia thing where you get points and compete with it. 52:50.580 --> 52:52.180 I mean, little things like that. 52:52.240 --> 52:56.540 You know, that was some of my first exposure is like a, you know, 10, 11 year old kid. 52:56.540 --> 53:03.240 And that was one of the first things, you know, that opened my eyes to realize, you know what? 53:03.380 --> 53:05.240 It's not about what's in this computer. 53:05.640 --> 53:08.500 It's about what's in the other computers and how we can interact. 53:08.600 --> 53:12.920 And, you know, now that I'm an adult, that's the beautiful thing about the internet. 53:13.020 --> 53:15.840 But, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to back off because, you know what? 53:15.840 --> 53:19.980 Okay, I'm sure the documentary is going to cover that and so much more. 53:20.560 --> 53:23.240 Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's definitely completist. 53:23.400 --> 53:24.220 I will say that. 53:24.520 --> 53:25.460 I would say so. 53:25.720 --> 53:28.140 Three DVDs you're looking at probably, most likely? 53:28.500 --> 53:29.700 Yeah, it'll be three DVDs. 53:29.720 --> 53:30.380 Or is that confirmed? 53:30.760 --> 53:31.560 Yeah, that's confirmed. 53:31.700 --> 53:32.680 It's going to be three DVDs. 53:32.720 --> 53:34.980 It's now just a matter of how much bonus material goes on it. 53:34.980 --> 53:40.020 You know, one of the things, like I said, that I point out is, okay, great, six hours. 53:40.200 --> 53:40.960 That's incredible. 53:41.180 --> 53:41.820 That's insane. 53:42.220 --> 53:43.740 I don't want to see any of it. 53:43.780 --> 53:44.580 I want to see all of it. 53:44.800 --> 53:50.860 But the thing is, is that's edited down from 247 hours of interviews that have been conducted. 53:51.080 --> 53:54.400 So there's a lot of footage that I generated over the last three years. 53:54.660 --> 54:01.440 And a lot of those interviews don't have anything to do with BPSs who are just happy to have someone visiting them at their farm. 54:01.440 --> 54:05.840 And I got to get, you know, a nice little talk about, you know, their gun ownership. 54:06.320 --> 54:11.460 But, you know, that's the nature of just throwing out the line and seeing what comes back. 54:11.520 --> 54:15.320 You get some really great, interesting characters, some interesting people. 54:15.580 --> 54:16.140 Yeah, I bet. 54:16.200 --> 54:20.620 And you know what I would like to see is some extra footage, or even in the documentary itself. 54:20.680 --> 54:26.080 I may be too late for the suggestion, but I would like to hear the stories of how you found some of these people. 54:26.540 --> 54:29.180 I think that would be cool bonus features, bonus footage. 54:29.180 --> 54:35.640 Yep, the website itself will have a photo gallery of every interview I did, because I took pictures while I interviewed people. 54:35.780 --> 54:36.240 I've seen some. 54:36.240 --> 54:41.280 I give some talk about, like, what was going on, why I went there, what it was like, and so on. 54:41.520 --> 54:43.700 So you get kind of a travelogue to go with it. 54:44.000 --> 54:45.640 So you're like, well, what's the story with that guy? 54:45.700 --> 54:47.060 And you go and you're like, oh, that's why. 54:47.160 --> 54:49.800 He did this and this, and that's why Jason wanted to talk to him. 54:49.940 --> 54:50.200 Right. 54:50.200 --> 54:55.360 So, you know, I lost a rental car at one point. 54:55.520 --> 54:57.780 I lost parts of my equipment at various points. 54:58.620 --> 55:00.940 It was a very, it was like a travel. 55:01.160 --> 55:03.340 It was like, you know, I traveled many thousands of miles. 55:03.540 --> 55:04.700 It was a great adventure. 55:05.440 --> 55:06.220 So, yeah. 55:06.580 --> 55:12.140 Now, I guess I'll be the one to jump to where we're going. 55:12.140 --> 55:14.300 Yeah, well, you know, it is a perfect segue. 55:14.440 --> 55:21.260 First of all, we are going to come back to, you made one point with the documentary as far as media, medium again. 55:21.600 --> 55:21.820 Yes. 55:21.900 --> 55:23.280 And we'll end with that. 55:23.360 --> 55:26.040 But before we go there, let's begin at the beginning. 55:26.040 --> 55:34.040 And we've already kind of mentioned it somewhat with the documentary and the irony of these old text files, these old ASCII files, which are tiny. 55:35.060 --> 55:36.040 They were pure text. 55:36.040 --> 55:42.900 Text back then, sound files weren't even, you know, there was no MP3. 55:43.120 --> 55:49.200 There was no, you know, audios, files being transmitted, or very, very rare, if at all. 55:50.600 --> 55:52.860 Not in the way that we experience it now. 55:52.900 --> 55:53.300 Right. 55:53.320 --> 55:56.180 We definitely did transfer it, but they were novelties. 55:56.840 --> 55:59.920 And by that I mean, you know, it was interesting. 56:00.060 --> 56:04.120 I have Apple II discs in which you can hear Van Halen digitized. 56:04.120 --> 56:09.740 But let me tell you, you need the words on the screen telling you that what you're listening to is Van Halen. 56:09.920 --> 56:10.320 Exactly. 56:10.920 --> 56:27.180 And it was 140K, and it took you an hour or longer to download it over a 300-baud modem to be able to listen to a 16 or basically a 10-second excerpt of perhaps Eruption by Van Halen. 56:27.180 --> 56:29.100 You know, that was what you got. 56:29.520 --> 56:34.940 And, you know, some of these programs would compose music, but that's obviously not the same thing we think of. 56:35.180 --> 56:41.400 I'm going to have to take a timeout and award you two points for the first official use of Van Halen on Binary Revolution Radio. 56:41.520 --> 56:41.880 Congratulations. 56:43.380 --> 56:43.780 Now. 56:43.780 --> 56:48.480 You know, you bring up something. 56:49.160 --> 57:00.420 You know, whenever I look at things now, this is a result of running textfiles.com and my other archival projects, is to me the most fascinating aspect of anything technical or anything is history. 57:00.880 --> 57:05.180 You know, to me, I'm not just listening to a hacker radio program, or I'm not just on a hacker radio program. 57:05.180 --> 57:13.420 I think of how things were going back for the past 30 years with radio programs and how people got things on the air and what they went to. 57:13.680 --> 57:24.400 And the rule I always make is the rule of firsts, which is never consider something being first to be the most important aspect of it, 57:24.460 --> 57:28.160 because at the end of the day, you're going to find out it really wasn't the first. 57:28.480 --> 57:32.320 You're always going to find something that was kind of like it that's pretty close. 57:32.320 --> 57:38.560 And now if all you're saying is we're the first and only, you've gotten rid of the one thing that makes you good. 57:38.680 --> 57:42.120 What you should be saying is we're doing our best right now. 57:42.760 --> 57:43.840 We're something new. 57:43.940 --> 57:45.180 We're doing something right now. 57:45.500 --> 57:46.420 We have what's going on. 57:46.680 --> 57:49.760 You are the best program that people are listening to right now. 57:49.940 --> 57:51.620 You know, that's the way it should be. 57:51.740 --> 57:53.400 You're working on this program and it's done. 57:53.400 --> 58:04.060 And if you say, well, we're the first one with a co-host who's, you know, also this kind of programmer, you know, it's a losing game. 58:04.100 --> 58:05.260 And you see it played all the time. 58:05.340 --> 58:07.460 You know, we're the first BBS to be like this. 58:07.540 --> 58:09.340 We're the first website where people had a counter. 58:09.840 --> 58:11.400 It's foolish. 58:11.540 --> 58:13.320 It's foolish and it's what people do. 58:13.320 --> 58:19.660 So when it comes to things like, you know, sound, sound files, radio shows. 58:20.640 --> 58:23.700 I think I was the first website to officially fuck not somebody. 58:24.420 --> 58:27.840 Do I get points and like does that go down in the annals of history? 58:28.540 --> 58:31.500 For the end of the program, I will send you a wave. 58:31.840 --> 58:32.400 Okay. 58:32.740 --> 58:36.580 This wave is being played on a computer in 1962. 58:37.460 --> 58:39.800 And it is a computer singing. 58:40.720 --> 58:50.500 And it was recorded by attaching a specialized device to one of the resistors inside of the machine such that you could hear the sound being sent in. 58:50.820 --> 58:51.820 And that's 1962. 58:52.340 --> 58:55.040 And you'll hear this and you'll say, wow, that's pretty good for 1962. 58:55.380 --> 58:56.000 How long is it? 58:56.500 --> 58:59.140 It's about, oh, about a minute. 58:59.680 --> 59:01.680 I might have to play that as our outro tonight. 59:01.680 --> 59:02.080 Yeah. 59:02.260 --> 59:04.160 It's a very interesting little piece of work. 59:04.160 --> 59:06.320 And it's back in 1962. 59:07.160 --> 59:19.120 You know, what's important in looking at how something got to be the way it is or where it is now is you say not just like, wow, MP3s are neat. 59:19.980 --> 59:22.300 But I don't want to switch to this odd thing. 59:22.560 --> 59:23.980 It's not MP3s. 59:24.340 --> 59:25.500 MP3s are the way. 59:26.000 --> 59:28.800 You have to kind of say, why are MP3s the way? 59:28.940 --> 59:29.940 Because MP3s are neat. 59:30.360 --> 59:31.820 Why did we get to that? 59:31.820 --> 59:42.180 And, you know, I can remember back in 1995, I was running a little ISP that went under, and somebody had this 5-meg file in their directory. 59:42.280 --> 59:48.480 Now, keep in mind, my whole directory was, I think, 500 megs for my users. 59:48.820 --> 59:50.400 So somebody had a 10-meg file. 59:50.400 --> 59:51.720 They were eating up that much. 59:52.300 --> 59:54.200 And I thought, what the heck is this? 59:54.240 --> 59:54.760 What's it called? 59:54.820 --> 59:56.400 And it was called Mariah Carey. 59:57.040 --> 59:59.360 And then a song titled Dot MP3. 59:59.800 --> 01:00:03.840 And I thought, no, it's 10 megs of Mariah Carey. 01:00:04.040 --> 01:00:07.620 Yeah, did you kick him off immediately just for having a Mariah Carey MP3? 01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:08.920 He was my boss. 01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:13.800 And he always had, he was one of these cutting-edge guys, always was there right at the beginning. 01:00:14.340 --> 01:00:21.360 And I was like, what the hell is with this 10-megabyte, is it pictures? 01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:23.600 Is it, you know, I just didn't know what it was. 01:00:23.660 --> 01:00:25.440 And when I went to him and he said, it's a song. 01:00:26.420 --> 01:00:27.420 Like, what do you mean, it's a song? 01:00:27.560 --> 01:00:28.760 And he said, no, it's a song. 01:00:28.780 --> 01:00:29.540 And he played it for me. 01:00:29.560 --> 01:00:33.340 And I was like, oh, that's 10 megs? 01:00:33.820 --> 01:00:34.180 Wow. 01:00:34.180 --> 01:00:35.860 And, you know, that was like one of those things. 01:00:36.100 --> 01:00:45.240 Well, you know, what happened is that MP3 is like, it's almost a story like Prometheus, 01:00:45.420 --> 01:00:49.080 the man who stole fire from the gods, which is supposedly how man got fire. 01:00:49.300 --> 01:00:50.300 Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. 01:00:50.360 --> 01:00:52.780 We don't have time for the Prometheus story. 01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:53.660 We've got maybe 20. 01:00:53.660 --> 01:00:54.460 No, no, we're going away from Prometheus. 01:00:54.460 --> 01:00:58.220 Okay, we've got a 20-minute story time, but we don't have Prometheus story time, 01:00:58.300 --> 01:00:59.480 the Iliad and the Odyssey or anything. 01:00:59.560 --> 01:01:02.800 I'll skip forward from Prometheus to about 1985, 86. 01:01:03.040 --> 01:01:03.360 Okay. 01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:08.380 The Motion Picture Engineering Group, which was one of the industry groups whose job was 01:01:08.380 --> 01:01:16.540 to put together ways to transfer sound and data, sound video as data, actually, over 01:01:16.540 --> 01:01:22.000 whatever telecommunications lines they would use, T1s or other digital media. 01:01:22.380 --> 01:01:25.940 And the way to do this, of course, is to compress it, but you want to compress it so it looks 01:01:25.940 --> 01:01:29.040 the most like the thing it used to be. 01:01:29.040 --> 01:01:36.760 And in the mid-80s, there was an engineer, an engineer whose name is now mostly forgotten, 01:01:36.940 --> 01:01:42.920 named Brandenburg, Karl-Heinz Brandenburg, who created, on the sound side, something called 01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:49.060 the psychoacoustic model, which said basically, if it sounds like it should to a human being, 01:01:49.060 --> 01:01:50.380 that's good enough. 01:01:50.780 --> 01:01:53.780 Because the machine can look at it and say, no, there's something all wrong, everything's 01:01:53.780 --> 01:01:54.700 missing, who cares? 01:01:55.060 --> 01:01:57.380 At the end of the day, we're playing this for people. 01:01:57.860 --> 01:02:04.400 And to do that, he created a compression scheme that was lossy in that it lost data. 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.260 This comes back to bite us later. 01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:08.420 But at the time, it made sense. 01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:16.980 Now you've got one-tenth of the size required than if you took, say, a 16-bit file and recorded 01:02:16.980 --> 01:02:20.680 it, you'd end up with 100 megs for a certain length. 01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:21.680 Now you'd end up with 10. 01:02:21.900 --> 01:02:22.580 It made sense. 01:02:22.660 --> 01:02:23.840 It was a 1 to 10 ratio. 01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:24.700 What a great idea. 01:02:25.080 --> 01:02:29.860 And just to interject here, since you've already dropped one definition, why don't you just, 01:02:30.520 --> 01:02:33.280 to be thorough, lossy versus lossless. 01:02:33.400 --> 01:02:34.540 Just touch on that for a second. 01:02:34.900 --> 01:02:35.280 Certainly. 01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:38.720 One of the things you want to do when you're compressing, you know, there's two ways of 01:02:38.720 --> 01:02:39.420 looking at the data. 01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:43.200 You can either take the, you want to make the data smaller, right? 01:02:43.260 --> 01:02:48.340 So one of the things you end up doing is you can either make it lossy or lossless. 01:02:48.500 --> 01:02:51.700 Now keep in mind that for a long time, there wasn't any such thing as lossy. 01:02:51.980 --> 01:02:53.180 It's the dumbest idea ever. 01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:58.000 You compress it, and when you uncompress it, there's less than when you originally had it. 01:02:58.660 --> 01:02:59.760 Who would want that? 01:03:00.100 --> 01:03:03.600 So really, it was always just lossless, what we think of as now lossless. 01:03:03.600 --> 01:03:08.880 You would compress 100 bytes down to 20, and then later you could turn it back into the 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:10.560 original 100, having lost no data. 01:03:10.940 --> 01:03:11.640 This was great. 01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:14.460 You spent less time on the phone transferring data. 01:03:14.740 --> 01:03:18.680 You spent less time and space on the computer dealing with it. 01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:22.640 There was a little bit of a hit because it took the computer processor, but it was a great 01:03:22.640 --> 01:03:22.960 idea. 01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:27.040 And this psychoacoustic model was one of the first times where they said, well, why don't 01:03:27.040 --> 01:03:31.880 we just compress it so that it looks like it should, but in fact, it's got a lot less 01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:32.700 data in it. 01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:37.240 They did this with the picture, and they did it with the sound, and it became known as 01:03:37.240 --> 01:03:42.300 MPEG-1, or at the time, MPEG, the MPEG compression. 01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:44.540 And that's what was MPEG-1. 01:03:45.020 --> 01:03:53.160 Now, they wanted to accompany the video for MPEG with any one of three different approaches 01:03:53.160 --> 01:03:55.120 to the sound. 01:03:55.840 --> 01:04:01.960 And the third one, there were three layers, each of which was intended to be able to undo 01:04:01.960 --> 01:04:03.420 the ones below it. 01:04:03.420 --> 01:04:12.680 And the third layer was the one that this gentleman created, this lossy, but still sounded kind 01:04:12.680 --> 01:04:19.120 of right, but definitely could save space, compression scheme, which was called MPEG-1, 01:04:19.340 --> 01:04:20.760 layer number three. 01:04:21.600 --> 01:04:28.200 Well, when people found this, you see, it was a number of people who were not in the industry 01:04:28.200 --> 01:04:35.500 who kind of kept tabs on it, who said, wow, this thing can transport music and really do 01:04:35.500 --> 01:04:35.940 it well. 01:04:36.460 --> 01:04:40.120 You know, that same first time, if you can harken back to the first time you ran into an 01:04:40.120 --> 01:04:45.680 MP3, where you were like, I downloaded this two-megabyte file, and it sounds like this? 01:04:46.200 --> 01:04:47.240 That was what they felt. 01:04:47.780 --> 01:04:52.860 You know, the only problem with it was that it took an enormous amount of processor to do 01:04:52.860 --> 01:04:53.020 it. 01:04:53.020 --> 01:04:58.780 In fact, back in 1988, when this group first created it, it used to take them three days 01:04:58.780 --> 01:05:02.880 for a room full of computers to compress one second. 01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:06.860 You know, that's how long ago this thing was being worked on. 01:05:08.020 --> 01:05:09.680 So they wanted money for it. 01:05:10.200 --> 01:05:13.340 So the decoder, they just let anyone have. 01:05:13.620 --> 01:05:18.060 But the encoder, the thing that would turn it into an MP3 in the first place, well, that 01:05:18.060 --> 01:05:18.660 was proprietary. 01:05:19.060 --> 01:05:19.780 That was licensed. 01:05:19.780 --> 01:05:26.440 That was meant to, that was to be used by companies who would pay a royalty. 01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:33.460 And of course, it was developed, or to remind people again, by the MPEG, MPEG, the motion 01:05:33.460 --> 01:05:35.640 pictures, does this sound familiar? 01:05:36.640 --> 01:05:36.940 Yep. 01:05:37.140 --> 01:05:42.400 This was the group of people who would then go on to work on the DVD standard, who would 01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:47.640 work on VCRs, who had worked on everything where they were going to intend these things 01:05:47.640 --> 01:05:51.960 to be used by the professional industry to provide the people. 01:05:52.300 --> 01:05:54.980 It really wasn't meant for people to be using at any given time. 01:05:55.260 --> 01:05:57.100 It wasn't going to be a consumer-level situation. 01:05:57.240 --> 01:05:59.600 It was going to be something that came from the top down. 01:06:00.020 --> 01:06:05.560 So when somebody discovers this program and starts using it and saying, look at it, it's 01:06:05.560 --> 01:06:06.980 like, it's like crack. 01:06:06.980 --> 01:06:11.740 You know, people encounter this thing that gives them the music they love, because music 01:06:11.740 --> 01:06:15.280 is so emotional, and they're going to get it in this small amount of time. 01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:20.920 All they've got to do is use the program on WAV files that they pull from some source, 01:06:21.100 --> 01:06:24.620 and they can have a smaller version that they can transfer that sounds just like the WAV file. 01:06:25.120 --> 01:06:28.880 We'll get into the techniques of WAV shortly, in a reduced size. 01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:32.720 But, you know, basically, people, you couldn't get away from this. 01:06:32.900 --> 01:06:35.800 Well, there was a slight problem of, well, it's kind of proprietary. 01:06:36.100 --> 01:06:37.700 It's kind of owned by somebody. 01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:40.820 So that didn't stop anybody. 01:06:41.220 --> 01:06:41.340 No. 01:06:41.820 --> 01:06:46.920 In the mid-'90s, people were pulling out libraries that were being used by other things. 01:06:47.020 --> 01:06:48.640 Microsoft paid for a library. 01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:51.160 There were other groups who paid for a library. 01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:53.940 And they pulled it out, and they started using it. 01:06:53.940 --> 01:07:01.960 And they were able to make it in code, quite in the face of the proprietary rules that were 01:07:01.960 --> 01:07:05.500 applied by Frauhofer and by the groups who licensed it. 01:07:05.960 --> 01:07:10.300 And they were able to turn it into, basically, a music compression machine. 01:07:10.980 --> 01:07:18.400 And this was when we start to see things like MPG-123 and other programs that are basically 01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:19.000 encoders. 01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:20.700 Now, these are tracked down. 01:07:20.820 --> 01:07:21.560 These are attacked. 01:07:21.560 --> 01:07:23.980 These are brought down by groups. 01:07:25.560 --> 01:07:29.180 Frauhofer went after people, basically going after developers. 01:07:29.480 --> 01:07:32.860 You know, we start to see things that are happening now where they went after developers and said, 01:07:33.120 --> 01:07:34.060 you can't do that. 01:07:34.260 --> 01:07:36.220 You did that by reverse engineering our stuff. 01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:39.980 And they said, no, no, no, we didn't do anything like that. 01:07:40.020 --> 01:07:44.700 And then they quietly transferred it to, you know, Tasmania or some other place out of their reach. 01:07:45.220 --> 01:07:49.600 Now, obviously, with the DMCA, reverse engineering is illegal. 01:07:49.600 --> 01:07:54.420 So, yeah, even in, boy, that's, we're not going to go off on that tangent, but. 01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:54.780 Understood. 01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:59.220 But that's, people understand, this is the wild and woolly days of the mid-90s when you 01:07:59.220 --> 01:07:59.760 could do this. 01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:03.320 Reverse engineering is legal as long as it's not on a computer these days. 01:08:03.380 --> 01:08:06.700 You can still reverse engineer stuff as long as it's not a computer software package. 01:08:07.060 --> 01:08:07.380 Correct. 01:08:07.520 --> 01:08:10.640 Reverse engineering is the bread and butter of innovation in this country. 01:08:10.640 --> 01:08:12.680 But, yes, I will not go there. 01:08:12.780 --> 01:08:13.960 You go, I'm sorry, you go right ahead. 01:08:14.300 --> 01:08:15.640 So, you have this situation, right? 01:08:15.780 --> 01:08:17.940 Now you have these, these, these, these MPEGs. 01:08:18.400 --> 01:08:22.740 And people are calling them MPEGs, which is like, you know, that's why people, when you 01:08:22.740 --> 01:08:26.760 hear people refer to CD-ROM images as ISOs. 01:08:26.800 --> 01:08:29.120 I mean, ISO is the International Standards Organization. 01:08:29.380 --> 01:08:33.840 It's a group that made the standard that that happens to be one of many thousands. 01:08:34.460 --> 01:08:35.860 But lingo is lingo. 01:08:35.860 --> 01:08:37.220 So, you can't really go near there. 01:08:37.360 --> 01:08:40.900 So, how do you easily put down what people are using? 01:08:41.120 --> 01:08:45.720 Well, you just say, well, it's MPEG-1, layer 3. 01:08:45.860 --> 01:08:46.440 That's too hard. 01:08:46.580 --> 01:08:47.240 MPEG-3. 01:08:47.560 --> 01:08:48.680 M-P-3. 01:08:49.160 --> 01:08:49.560 Exactly. 01:08:49.640 --> 01:08:51.900 So, the name M-P-3 starts being used. 01:08:52.700 --> 01:08:55.060 You know, the industry never called it that. 01:08:55.680 --> 01:08:57.260 People just call them M-P-3s. 01:08:57.340 --> 01:08:58.780 We're trading M-P-3s. 01:08:58.820 --> 01:09:00.260 I've got some M-P-3s for you. 01:09:00.720 --> 01:09:05.280 And it's important to note that, you know, again, CD audio, a CD. 01:09:05.280 --> 01:09:14.180 The reason a CD holds 640 or 670, you know, megabytes is because that's how long it takes 01:09:14.180 --> 01:09:16.480 to hold an hour and something of music. 01:09:17.080 --> 01:09:23.460 You know, that's what, when you store on the CD standard, you end up with these, basically 01:09:23.460 --> 01:09:26.060 you end up with these very large files. 01:09:26.380 --> 01:09:33.000 And by compressing these down, even though they don't have all the same information, they 01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:35.080 sound about the same to a lot of people. 01:09:35.500 --> 01:09:35.720 Right. 01:09:35.820 --> 01:09:40.220 And this is probably a good segue to start into some of the more technical stuff here 01:09:40.220 --> 01:09:41.940 as we've got about maybe 10 minutes. 01:09:42.180 --> 01:09:42.580 Wow! 01:09:43.100 --> 01:09:43.500 Yeah. 01:09:44.220 --> 01:09:45.380 Some of the history is good. 01:09:45.380 --> 01:09:49.040 And I also just, one other thing I wanted to point about historically is, is just kind 01:09:49.040 --> 01:09:54.900 of the irony of the fact that this was developed by the Motion Pictures Group, and they're the 01:09:54.900 --> 01:10:02.640 ones that are so animated against suing people because their stuff is distributed, MPEGs, A-V-I's, 01:10:02.980 --> 01:10:06.260 MP3s, et cetera, out there, the RAA and the MPAA. 01:10:06.260 --> 01:10:13.820 You know, I find it quite ironic and amusing that their own creation came back to bite them 01:10:13.820 --> 01:10:15.000 in the rear end, so to speak. 01:10:15.400 --> 01:10:15.520 Right. 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:17.440 So I just want to bring that irony up. 01:10:17.540 --> 01:10:22.200 Now, you mentioned again, let's kind of transition here into some of the hardware aspects of it 01:10:22.200 --> 01:10:27.080 and some of the technical aspects of it as far as, okay, you were going off into WAV files, 01:10:27.160 --> 01:10:32.760 for example, and let's, before we even talk about that, let's do a, let's back up and talk 01:10:32.760 --> 01:10:35.080 about analog versus digital for a second if we can. 01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:35.900 Okay. 01:10:36.840 --> 01:10:40.640 Analog, well, I tell you what, maybe you, why don't you go ahead. 01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:44.960 Analog versus digital, pretty, pretty generic topic, but let's clarify that before we go 01:10:44.960 --> 01:10:48.780 into the technical details of files. 01:10:49.240 --> 01:10:49.560 Sure. 01:10:50.200 --> 01:10:55.100 When we think of things that are analog, certainly within the context of sound, it's usually 01:10:55.100 --> 01:11:01.880 some sort of physical act, and by that I mean you do something, you cause a vibration, 01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:06.300 and that vibration affects something, so for instance, when they used to make records, they 01:11:06.300 --> 01:11:10.500 would take the vibration of the sound, and that would cause a groove to make etchings 01:11:10.500 --> 01:11:15.800 in it, and then when you put a needle in those etchings, it would vibrate, so the physicality 01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:20.380 of it was such that it would cause it to make these signals, and when they got up to a tube, 01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:24.960 that tube would take the signal and then amplify it to the point that you could eventually hear 01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:26.280 it on a speaker. 01:11:26.580 --> 01:11:27.840 This is all analog. 01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:33.420 In other words, there's a lot of variants, there's a lot of, you know, it's almost a 01:11:33.420 --> 01:11:34.920 one-off thing, you go from here to there. 01:11:35.400 --> 01:11:39.920 Maybe somebody's smart and they put in, like, a little piece of metal, and where that metal 01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:45.120 is, it affects the sound that's coming through, but at the end of the day, it's basically using 01:11:45.120 --> 01:11:50.640 physical stuff, electricity and physical waves. 01:11:50.980 --> 01:11:56.180 When you have digital, you are transferring things to information, and until recently, and 01:11:56.180 --> 01:12:02.440 by that I mean the last few years, you couldn't hope to make digital information come by fast 01:12:02.440 --> 01:12:03.640 enough to make it sound as good. 01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:08.140 You couldn't hope to do that, because you have to take it so many times. 01:12:08.300 --> 01:12:12.760 In fact, that's where when people say, what about this kilohertz thing, that's how many 01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:14.280 samples per second it's taking. 01:12:14.420 --> 01:12:16.360 44,100 in a CD. 01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:17.920 44.1 kilohertz. 01:12:18.300 --> 01:12:20.160 That's how many times they're sampling the sound. 01:12:20.320 --> 01:12:20.520 Right. 01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:22.780 That is the CD standard for music. 01:12:23.100 --> 01:12:23.360 Right. 01:12:23.460 --> 01:12:23.680 Correct. 01:12:24.020 --> 01:12:30.100 When you listen to, say, an MP3 and you see the kilohertz go up or down, that's how many 01:12:30.100 --> 01:12:31.540 samples per second it's taking. 01:12:32.020 --> 01:12:38.120 And the more sound that's going on, the less clarity you can sometimes have if you knock 01:12:38.120 --> 01:12:41.500 it down, if you have a lot of information coming through, because it can't sample it 01:12:41.500 --> 01:12:42.040 fast enough. 01:12:42.480 --> 01:12:43.500 It's only able to take off. 01:12:43.740 --> 01:12:45.040 It's like looking through a screen door. 01:12:45.140 --> 01:12:46.440 It doesn't quite look the same. 01:12:46.680 --> 01:12:49.000 You can see where it all was, but you don't have enough information. 01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:54.000 Right, and if I may interject here, as far as sample rate, now let's actually apply this 01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:55.760 a little bit so that people can follow. 01:12:56.180 --> 01:13:03.360 The sample rate, as you explained, which is basically how many samples are captured per 01:13:03.360 --> 01:13:03.780 second. 01:13:04.260 --> 01:13:07.880 Sometimes called, well, that's why it's called the sample rate, but sometimes called SPS 01:13:07.880 --> 01:13:08.900 or samples per second. 01:13:09.920 --> 01:13:16.880 And common sense logic, because as you just explained, it's how many, you know, polls or 01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:22.820 how many times you check it in a matter of a second, the higher it is, common sense tells 01:13:22.820 --> 01:13:27.100 you the more samples you take in a period of a second, the better quality you're going 01:13:27.100 --> 01:13:29.240 to get, because you're going to pull it more often. 01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:29.740 Right. 01:13:29.740 --> 01:13:39.240 The standard for CD audio at the very high quality is 44,100 hertz or 44 kilohertz, 44.1 kilohertz, written 01:13:39.240 --> 01:13:46.360 different ways, but 44.1, which is what you'll most often see on, well, I guess for lack of 01:13:46.360 --> 01:13:47.800 a better word, CD rips. 01:13:48.020 --> 01:13:52.280 When you find an album that's been ripped out there, you'll most often find it at 44.1. 01:13:52.620 --> 01:13:52.860 Right. 01:13:52.860 --> 01:14:02.480 Okay, now, to apply this also to lossy compression, okay, where data is lost, what happens here 01:14:02.480 --> 01:14:10.660 is that humans cannot hear above 20,000 hertz, if I understand correctly, and honestly, this 01:14:10.660 --> 01:14:16.780 is, I've just read about this this week, so I'm kind of rough on this myself. 01:14:17.020 --> 01:14:21.300 Humans can't hear it in general, but there are always people who are hypersensitive. 01:14:21.300 --> 01:14:24.320 Women are more sensitive than men, and so on. 01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:26.480 There is some variance. 01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:27.920 Of course, yeah, of course. 01:14:28.020 --> 01:14:31.160 Generally speaking, though, above 20,000. 01:14:31.380 --> 01:14:38.500 So what that means is you want to have your sample rate to be twice as much of that, positive, 01:14:38.620 --> 01:14:41.880 negative, I believe, but plus or minus, I guess. 01:14:42.300 --> 01:14:50.540 So setting the rate at 44,100 covers that 40,000, 20,000 times two, 20,000 hertz times two, 01:14:50.540 --> 01:14:51.500 so it covers everything. 01:14:51.960 --> 01:14:53.720 So there's really not much of a need. 01:14:53.900 --> 01:14:55.260 It's debatable and it's argued. 01:14:55.400 --> 01:14:59.200 I've seen some people out there discussing it in some of the professional forums and stuff 01:14:59.200 --> 01:15:00.040 like that about that. 01:15:00.340 --> 01:15:06.720 But usually, 44,100 will cover just about anything, extreme high ranges, low ranges, etc. 01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:15.160 But, in regards to this radio show and other talk radio shows, that's a lot of overkill. 01:15:15.700 --> 01:15:22.700 That's accounting for very, very precise high range sounds, low range bass, etc., etc. 01:15:23.140 --> 01:15:28.320 A normal speaking voice, or even an abnormal speaking voice like mine, even on one of my 01:15:28.320 --> 01:15:31.340 tirades and rants and everything, does not really need all of that. 01:15:31.340 --> 01:15:38.680 So, yes, technically 44.1 would be the highest, that would be the highest quality or one of 01:15:38.680 --> 01:15:41.620 the highest quality I could put out, but it's really not necessary. 01:15:42.260 --> 01:15:47.260 For what I'm doing here, and this is the email we went to earlier where I heard 1616, what 01:15:47.260 --> 01:15:52.340 I used to put this at was 16,000 hertz or 16 kilohertz, which is what I mentioned on those 01:15:52.340 --> 01:15:52.980 earlier shows. 01:15:52.980 --> 01:16:01.380 We have switched lately, and I'm now doing 22,050 hertz, 22,050, or 22,050 is what I 01:16:01.380 --> 01:16:06.180 usually refer to it, which the only reason I even do that is because the opening theme 01:16:06.180 --> 01:16:10.600 music and the closing music, I like to give them a little bit more justice and sample more 01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:11.540 often for those. 01:16:11.980 --> 01:16:14.140 So, that's really the only reason that I made that change. 01:16:14.240 --> 01:16:19.340 So, since episode seven, I think it was, when we recorded the first how-to, we've changed 01:16:19.340 --> 01:16:22.320 a little bit and gone a little bit higher quality, but it's only for the music. 01:16:22.320 --> 01:16:28.180 But, technically, you could go as low as eight or even less because talking is one of the 01:16:28.180 --> 01:16:33.100 least precise things that you would put on MP3. 01:16:33.480 --> 01:16:33.880 Right. 01:16:34.080 --> 01:16:35.960 Okay, so that's the sample rate. 01:16:36.400 --> 01:16:40.500 In fact, parts of MP3 are meant to be optimized for the human voice. 01:16:41.020 --> 01:16:45.440 So, you actually have a case where human voices are meant to sound like normal humans as much 01:16:45.440 --> 01:16:46.720 as possible under MP3. 01:16:47.700 --> 01:16:54.360 You know, you can, you know, what we run into, the hidden monster that neither of us are talking 01:16:54.360 --> 01:16:55.520 about here is the bandwidth. 01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:59.340 That is to say, the amount of information that comes through, well, you know, you have 01:16:59.340 --> 01:16:59.840 this balance. 01:16:59.960 --> 01:17:04.800 The more information, the better it kind of sounds, but the bigger the file is. 01:17:05.100 --> 01:17:05.400 Right. 01:17:05.500 --> 01:17:07.180 And there is kind of a balance. 01:17:07.180 --> 01:17:11.780 It's, gosh, I wish we had more than another four or five minutes to talk about this, but 01:17:11.780 --> 01:17:17.140 we've got to at least touch on bit rate to go along with sample rate, you know. 01:17:17.140 --> 01:17:23.840 And the bit rate is the other number that you see, besides the 44.1, you usually see, at 01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:26.360 least I usually see 128 kilobits per second. 01:17:26.820 --> 01:17:27.120 Right. 01:17:27.280 --> 01:17:31.180 Which is very, very good for, well, that's not very, very good. 01:17:31.260 --> 01:17:34.760 That's standard generic default for music. 01:17:36.080 --> 01:17:36.880 But that is... 01:17:36.880 --> 01:17:40.340 It was standard called for what we would call 384 kilobits per second. 01:17:40.340 --> 01:17:48.580 But, you know, people discovered that 128 sounded pretty good and was much smaller. 01:17:49.060 --> 01:17:54.080 So that's kind of where 128 comes from when it comes to music, is that's what, to most 01:17:54.080 --> 01:17:55.340 people, sounds okay. 01:17:55.560 --> 01:18:01.620 Now, anybody who's an audiophile, you know, who are one of the most unhappy people on the 01:18:01.620 --> 01:18:04.240 face of the earth, they don't like it. 01:18:04.960 --> 01:18:09.160 And, you know, the thing to keep in mind, again, is if your show, and I guess we're talking 01:18:09.160 --> 01:18:14.840 about specifically within the context of radio shows, if your show is primarily voice, there 01:18:14.840 --> 01:18:20.040 are, there's, 128 is excellent. 01:18:20.380 --> 01:18:20.860 Oh, yeah. 01:18:20.940 --> 01:18:21.720 Beyond excellent. 01:18:22.120 --> 01:18:23.680 And you can get away with shorter. 01:18:23.840 --> 01:18:29.280 Now, I, as an archivist, wish that people would keep, you know, their Audacity file on 01:18:29.280 --> 01:18:29.700 a CD. 01:18:30.520 --> 01:18:35.380 I would encourage people to do that, to keep that version of their show around. 01:18:35.660 --> 01:18:38.920 But that's certainly not something you need to be transporting from your website. 01:18:39.160 --> 01:18:44.720 In fact, it's, as much as it might seem like hard work or extra work from your side, having 01:18:44.720 --> 01:18:49.260 multiple bit rates available for people, you know, having the really, really tiny one, 01:18:49.900 --> 01:18:53.940 you know, and then having the one that's a little bit better, and then having maybe the 01:18:53.940 --> 01:18:57.500 one that's beyond excellent for the crazy people, you know, the 128. 01:18:58.380 --> 01:19:00.700 That's, that's, if you have the space, that's great. 01:19:00.840 --> 01:19:05.600 If not, you know, somewhere in that, in that middle area, you know, getting around to 24, 01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:08.760 or, you know, I think that's a pretty good balance for a lot of people. 01:19:08.980 --> 01:19:09.180 Right. 01:19:09.280 --> 01:19:13.540 And that's actually, we have a few minutes to talk about this, because this is important, 01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:17.880 choosing this, because it is, bottom line, exactly what Jason just said. 01:19:17.940 --> 01:19:22.480 It's a payoff, and it's a personal decision you have to make of file size and quality. 01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:23.100 Yep. 01:19:23.100 --> 01:19:27.500 Okay, so you definitely want to keep that sample rate, if, ideally, you want to sample 01:19:27.500 --> 01:19:33.060 as high as you can, and you want to put the bit rate as high as you can, in an ideal world. 01:19:33.400 --> 01:19:33.580 Right. 01:19:33.620 --> 01:19:42.480 Okay, now, as an archivist, Jason's point is that you always want to keep the highest quality 01:19:42.480 --> 01:19:47.120 you can, and your original DAT file, the original file from Audacity, or whatever program you're 01:19:47.120 --> 01:19:53.700 using, you know, will keep usually a proprietary format, or it may just put out an extremely 01:19:53.700 --> 01:19:56.180 high quality WAV file, and they're enormous. 01:19:56.340 --> 01:20:03.300 One WAV file, high quality of any given episode of Binary Revolution Radio, will be around 350 01:20:03.300 --> 01:20:04.900 to 450 megabytes. 01:20:05.360 --> 01:20:05.520 Right. 01:20:05.520 --> 01:20:10.680 For one audio radio show, not an ISO of a movie, not an ISO of a game, or anything like 01:20:10.680 --> 01:20:18.940 that, 350 to 450 megabytes of audio at the absolute highest, lossless quality version 01:20:18.940 --> 01:20:19.620 of the show. 01:20:19.960 --> 01:20:20.240 Right. 01:20:20.340 --> 01:20:24.020 And then I make the decision, based on what I explained earlier, with the sample rate to 01:20:24.020 --> 01:20:28.420 make it a little bit, well, not a little bit, a whole lot smaller, because the reason I explained 01:20:28.420 --> 01:20:34.280 earlier, we can go with 22050, and on the bit rate end of things, what I go with is 24. 01:20:35.180 --> 01:20:39.240 And again, this is because I want a little bit more quality with the music, and I don't 01:20:39.240 --> 01:20:43.340 have to tell the guys that are downloading it, that you see the file size ends up being 01:20:43.340 --> 01:20:45.620 around 10 to 15 megabytes. 01:20:46.100 --> 01:20:50.540 You go with 16 and 16, which is what we used to do, the files were around 8 or 9 megabytes. 01:20:50.540 --> 01:20:56.580 I personally decided that it would be doing more justice to the artist whose music opened 01:20:56.580 --> 01:20:59.620 and closed the show to give them that extra file size. 01:20:59.700 --> 01:21:04.080 If I were to take it up to 128, it would be a 35 to 40 megabyte file. 01:21:04.280 --> 01:21:07.100 And that's just not quite manageable to download. 01:21:07.280 --> 01:21:11.180 If you have unlimited bandwidth, for whatever reason, say you have a T1 in your basement, 01:21:11.320 --> 01:21:15.320 something along those lines, and you can afford to do that, by all means, that's your decision 01:21:15.320 --> 01:21:15.860 to make. 01:21:16.260 --> 01:21:20.500 But understand the reason behind it, and the reason the files come out the size that they 01:21:20.500 --> 01:21:20.840 do. 01:21:21.360 --> 01:21:24.600 And that's the two things I really wanted to emphasize on this show. 01:21:25.040 --> 01:21:26.820 So we've got that out of the way. 01:21:27.220 --> 01:21:33.180 Now, also, we kind of have been emphasizing and talking about the history, and we're referring 01:21:33.180 --> 01:21:34.400 a lot to MP3s. 01:21:35.060 --> 01:21:41.640 These technical facts hold true for any format, any lossy format at all, what we're talking 01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:41.920 about. 01:21:42.160 --> 01:21:46.500 Not only is it the high and low ends that we're talking about dropping the human ear, most 01:21:46.500 --> 01:21:48.120 people generally can't hear that stuff. 01:21:48.380 --> 01:21:53.480 There's also other things going on, like, especially in speaking, if there's a pause in 01:21:53.480 --> 01:21:56.140 between your speaking, where there's no volume and nothing going in. 01:21:56.180 --> 01:22:00.940 Like, if I stop, just for that second right there, there's really nothing there. 01:22:01.060 --> 01:22:05.920 So the compression algorithms can be written smart enough to save all that space because 01:22:05.920 --> 01:22:06.740 nothing existed. 01:22:06.820 --> 01:22:07.960 Just kind of account for it. 01:22:08.300 --> 01:22:08.520 Right. 01:22:08.520 --> 01:22:13.980 And we will point out, so, you know, when we're talking about the history, the reason 01:22:13.980 --> 01:22:17.460 we bring this up is because, basically, MP3 is a fluke. 01:22:17.960 --> 01:22:23.040 It is a series of, you know, somebody found it, somebody stumbled upon it, got it out, 01:22:23.140 --> 01:22:26.960 it caught fire, Napster started using it, everyone started using it. 01:22:27.420 --> 01:22:28.800 It's not because it was the best. 01:22:29.180 --> 01:22:32.060 It's not because it was the best choice to have. 01:22:32.060 --> 01:22:38.160 It's because it was there where a certain group of people found it, you know, and for 01:22:38.160 --> 01:22:42.760 that reason, once people found out that digital music was such an incredible, incredible, 01:22:44.200 --> 01:22:48.920 for lack of a better word, where, you know, it was such an incredible thing that people 01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:56.840 wanted, they, a group of people, Theora, started working on Ogg and said, we're going to do 01:22:56.840 --> 01:23:01.760 this, but this time we're not going to have all that mess with encoding licensing and 01:23:02.060 --> 01:23:05.600 people charging and reverse engine, you know, we're going to do it, we're going to start 01:23:05.600 --> 01:23:09.520 from scratch, and that's a lot of work, and that's why they spent years on it, and people 01:23:09.520 --> 01:23:13.200 heard there was something called Ogg, but they were like, but my MP3 works right now, 01:23:13.240 --> 01:23:15.000 why would I want to waste my time with a new thing? 01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:21.040 And over time, they created Ogg, and they created it in a fashion that it allows itself 01:23:21.040 --> 01:23:26.240 to be basically improved over time, and people can still read it, you know, it's designed 01:23:26.240 --> 01:23:30.560 so that over time, if they improve the algorithms, your stuff doesn't stop working, it just 01:23:30.560 --> 01:23:32.840 starts playing the new better stuff easier. 01:23:33.100 --> 01:23:37.300 Yeah, it's going to take a while for Ogg to catch on, and we're going to have to use 01:23:37.300 --> 01:23:41.980 that as a segue, kind of, because my shouts tonight, we're going to be to the Ogg Vorbis 01:23:41.980 --> 01:23:42.800 development team. 01:23:43.460 --> 01:23:47.640 I mean, I am really, really going to try to set time, now that I've caught up on a lot 01:23:47.640 --> 01:23:52.340 of other things, the magazine, the TV show, yada, yada, yada, I'm finally going to try 01:23:52.340 --> 01:23:58.480 to get some time set aside to start converting and making Ogg versions, as well as the MP3 01:23:58.480 --> 01:24:02.620 version, I do realize that people out there are not going to adopt Ogg, just like you 01:24:02.620 --> 01:24:06.300 said, but I'm going to try to start putting two out there, and maybe eventually roll the 01:24:06.300 --> 01:24:11.660 MP3 off, as hopefully Ogg will become a little bit more standard, more well-known. 01:24:12.280 --> 01:24:15.200 Yeah, over time, it's the logical choice. 01:24:15.700 --> 01:24:19.700 So yeah, that is my shouts, and you know what, I would also love to try to get maybe some of 01:24:19.700 --> 01:24:23.880 the developers or somebody from the Ogg team on to give us some more detail also, and maybe 01:24:23.880 --> 01:24:28.040 correct some things we may have misspoke or weren't very clear about in our evaluation. 01:24:28.960 --> 01:24:35.320 But yeah, that's my shout-outs, is basically just to the Ogg Vorbis project team giving 01:24:35.320 --> 01:24:42.580 us an alternative and being very animated about making it freely available, you know, that 01:24:42.580 --> 01:24:47.120 there are no royalties and issues and stuff like that, giving us an alternative, open-source 01:24:47.120 --> 01:24:48.980 movement, open-free software, all that. 01:24:49.780 --> 01:24:50.980 I mean, they epitomize it. 01:24:50.980 --> 01:24:56.100 Yeah, this is like somebody seeing a big skyscraper that's charging $100 for the view at the top, 01:24:56.380 --> 01:25:00.420 and they're going, you know, they don't need to do that, and they slave for three years, 01:25:00.480 --> 01:25:05.160 for four years, building a skyscraper right next to it, going, putting all the effort 01:25:05.160 --> 01:25:09.620 in, and then when they get to the end, they could have charged $100, and they just open 01:25:09.620 --> 01:25:10.820 the door and say, come on in. 01:25:11.140 --> 01:25:11.540 Exactly. 01:25:11.780 --> 01:25:15.440 And you can never dispute that kind of single-minded focus. 01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:17.820 The world needs that. 01:25:17.820 --> 01:25:22.660 Sometimes it can be a problem, you know, sometimes people don't like to talk to people who are 01:25:22.660 --> 01:25:26.580 so focused, but I'll tell you, at the end of the day, you need people like that, and 01:25:26.580 --> 01:25:28.440 this is a good example where it pays off beautifully. 01:25:28.640 --> 01:25:33.240 You end up with a format that is free, that you could go right now and get your own version 01:25:33.240 --> 01:25:36.980 of, look at exactly how they did it, download the library, shove it in a program you're 01:25:36.980 --> 01:25:37.960 working on, and you're done. 01:25:37.960 --> 01:25:43.580 And I think that these guys have made every step, you know, every step I've seen from 01:25:43.580 --> 01:25:44.720 these guys has been a good one. 01:25:45.080 --> 01:25:47.960 I think that all it's going to take now is if people are going to go, what's that? 01:25:48.080 --> 01:25:48.360 Og? 01:25:48.480 --> 01:25:49.340 Okay, it's Og. 01:25:49.520 --> 01:25:49.940 All right. 01:25:49.980 --> 01:25:51.000 And what other shout-outs? 01:25:51.080 --> 01:25:51.620 Do you second that? 01:25:51.680 --> 01:25:52.200 What other shout-outs? 01:25:52.220 --> 01:25:55.460 You said there might be listeners in the future listening to this show on the archive. 01:25:55.800 --> 01:25:57.720 What do you have to say to the people of the future? 01:25:57.800 --> 01:25:59.020 What kind of shout-outs do you want to give them? 01:25:59.020 --> 01:26:08.120 Um, I had to say, to those people, I apologize for everything I just said, ever, and I'm 01:26:08.120 --> 01:26:10.880 really sorry about that thing I was found with in 2009. 01:26:11.180 --> 01:26:11.560 Uh-oh. 01:26:11.700 --> 01:26:11.900 Oops. 01:26:11.920 --> 01:26:14.860 I hope that it didn't color people's later perceptions of me. 01:26:15.720 --> 01:26:17.760 So that's about, you know, please don't think of me as that guy. 01:26:17.800 --> 01:26:19.620 I was really nice back here in 2004. 01:26:19.900 --> 01:26:22.040 No, seriously, your floor is yours. 01:26:22.100 --> 01:26:23.140 You got any shout-outs you want to give? 01:26:23.620 --> 01:26:27.340 Uh, shout-outs to me goes to anybody who is running a program. 01:26:27.340 --> 01:26:33.200 Uh, anybody who's doing, uh, who's taking their laptop and making a show, and especially 01:26:33.200 --> 01:26:35.200 to people who are trying to make a good show. 01:26:35.620 --> 01:26:42.160 But anyway, you know, you are part of a group of people who are what I call content generators. 01:26:42.420 --> 01:26:48.460 And in this world, people who make stuff will always be rarer than people who consume stuff. 01:26:48.780 --> 01:26:51.220 And those people are to be applauded, you know. 01:26:51.220 --> 01:26:57.280 So hurrah to you, and send me mail, jason at textfiles.com if you have a show. 01:26:57.700 --> 01:27:00.920 Send it, tell me about it, I'll archive it, I'll give you space. 01:27:01.540 --> 01:27:06.640 And we'll definitely be cooperating on some stuff in the future pertaining to DDP Hack Radio. 01:27:07.240 --> 01:27:11.840 You know, it's going to be a streaming server of several shows streaming their new episodes on DDP Hack Radio. 01:27:11.840 --> 01:27:19.340 Um, and definitely we'll, we'll work out some, some situations to share and to get things archived properly, et cetera, et cetera. 01:27:19.960 --> 01:27:25.140 Um, and if you want to email us back, feedback on this show, you can send it to radio at binrev.com. 01:27:25.700 --> 01:27:27.100 Um, article submissions. 01:27:27.280 --> 01:27:32.460 Remind everybody, you can send article submissions for episode, excuse me, issue 2.2. 01:27:32.460 --> 01:27:33.880 I'm, my media's running together. 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:35.700 2.2 of Binary Revolution Magazine. 01:27:36.320 --> 01:27:39.320 Send your articles to articles at binrev.com. 01:27:40.060 --> 01:27:44.700 Um, probably got maybe about a month, one to two months, somewhere in that range. 01:27:44.700 --> 01:27:47.300 We're going to start laying it out soon because I already have some good submissions. 01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:50.480 So the sooner you get it in, the more likely you will use it. 01:27:50.560 --> 01:27:56.360 If it comes in and we've already got a full issue, it's going to be quite a while before the, you know, six months before the next one comes out. 01:27:56.440 --> 01:27:57.640 So get it in sooner. 01:27:57.640 --> 01:28:00.800 So, because once we go to print, you know, it's going to be too late. 01:28:01.680 --> 01:28:12.680 And our closing music is going to be, well, what we'll do is we'll use what you had mentioned to me earlier, um, that old recording of the computerized, uh, Daisy song. 01:28:13.000 --> 01:28:15.480 Uh, make sure you send that to me after the show and we'll close with that. 01:28:15.780 --> 01:28:17.320 Thank you, my friend, for being on the show. 01:28:17.320 --> 01:28:23.420 Go into our closing catchphrase, such as it is, and tell everybody that we will see them next week. 01:28:23.840 --> 01:28:24.820 Same hack time. 01:28:25.100 --> 01:28:25.980 Same hack channel. 01:28:27.640 --> 01:28:57.620 Same hack time. 01:28:57.640 --> 01:28:58.840 Same hack time. 01:29:05.160 --> 01:29:07.640 Same hack time. 01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:08.120 Same hack time. 01:29:08.600 --> 01:29:08.640 Same hack time. 01:29:08.720 --> 01:29:09.640 Same hack. 01:29:09.680 --> 01:29:10.420 Same hack time. 01:29:10.640 --> 01:29:11.020 Same hack time. 01:29:11.220 --> 01:29:12.200 Same hack time. 01:29:12.460 --> 01:29:13.620 Same hack time. 01:29:13.780 --> 01:29:14.640 Same hack time. 01:29:14.880 --> 01:29:15.500 Same hack time. 01:29:17.680 --> 01:29:18.980 Same hack time. 01:29:19.240 --> 01:29:20.100 Same hack time. 01:29:20.680 --> 01:29:21.680 Same hack time. 01:29:22.600 --> 01:29:23.640 Same hack time. 01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:37.920 Daisy, Daisy, get me your answer, too. 01:29:39.140 --> 01:29:45.600 I've met a crazy old heart of love of you. 01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:49.700 It would be a stylish wherein. 01:29:49.700 --> 01:30:01.700 I've met a hard-to-carry, but you would see the last of the people that I've had to build for you.