WEBVTT

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This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers.

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I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you

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in a fag pose.

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In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in my six-fold.

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I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable.

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On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo. On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero.

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In a flash, I'll school you on burning dreamcast. You need some ISO? Let me through my hard drive rifle.

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Our exchange you could never stifle. Get a digital hug, you just caught the love bug.

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I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z.

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Your CG, it's all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely.

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You feel that rattle in your bones when I tell you we just hacked out Jones?

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And NASDAQ leaves you flat on your back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.

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Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.

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This is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers.

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Serial code, source code, ISO, RAM, SIF.

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Good evening and welcome to Binary Revolution Radio, episode number 125 for December 6, 2005.

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I'm Strom Carlson, and our special guest co-host this evening is Lance James from Secure Science Corporation.

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Say hi, Lance.

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Hi.

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So, Black Ratchet is not here tonight.

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He's busy filling out paperwork for something or other, and he can't make it.

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So, damn the paperwork, and he'll be back next week.

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But, anyway, Lance, I should introduce him before we get into the show.

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Lance, well, why don't you introduce yourself?

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You're the author of something recent.

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Yeah.

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Hi, my name's Lance.

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It's actually an acronym.

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Just kidding.

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I'm the author of Phishing Exposed.

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That's with a PH, which is basically a forensic manual for dealing with phishing.

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And it also has a lot of prediction-based events that will happen at some point.

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And already, since the release, there's been at least two events that have happened that are in the book.

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So, my background is I've been in the information security field for probably 10 years, and that means I was 17 at the time, which means, you know, you can have your own inference there.

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So, I've been kind of a hacker-type person for quite a bit, and I just, you know, do a lot of research on protocols, cryptography, reverse engineering.

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And then, recently, in 2003, I got into tracking phishers.

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Cool.

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We're going to – our show is live tonight, so if you have questions for myself or Lance tonight, you can call in.

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If you're calling from the United States, call toll-free 800-732-0442.

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Again, 800-732-0442.

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Or if you're calling from outside the U.S., country code 1-213-415-1047.

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Again, 1-213-415-1047.

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Dr. Zygman will answer your call and send you on over to us.

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So, let's get into – oh, so some housekeeping.

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Obviously, no black rights just tonight.

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And the map of our listeners that we set out last week, that's at Frapper.com, F-R-A-P-P-R.com, slash Binary Revolution Radio Listeners.

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We have 80 listeners so far on there, which is a pretty sizable number.

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And if you're listening and you haven't posted yet, go to that website, Frapper.com, slash Binary Revolution Radio Listeners, and post where you are.

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Put your pin on the map so we can see where everyone is.

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Time for some email.

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Our first email, it's an idea from Delete, and he says,

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Hey, dudes, the turducken is actually a Cajun food.

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I live in Louisiana, and I can say that these people stuff crap where it shouldn't go all the time and then eat it.

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The weird thing is that a lot of it is good.

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Time for some antacid.

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So, Lance, you're a vegetarian, right?

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Yeah, I am.

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Yeah, so no experience eating a turducken, and neither have I.

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Yeah, lots of crazy, weird food.

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I thought it was some modern thing, but I guess it makes sense that it might be a Cajun food.

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And personally, Delete, I'd stay away from using the phrase stuff crap where it shouldn't go when trying to advertise Cajun food.

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Just a thought.

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Or any kind of good food.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Because then you get this idea that it's just full of crap.

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Yeah.

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And then our next email is from, who asked us?

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It's from Linux Nightmare sent in this email, and he said,

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Do you guys know if you could send me the MP3 of the closing music from episode 124?

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That song was the shit.

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That song is called Rocked by Rape.

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It's by the Evolution Control Committee.

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And thankfully, like every single song that you will hear on BINREV Radio, it's free, totally free.

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And you can get that at httpevolution-control.com slash sounds.html.

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G.I. Joe writes,

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Hello, while you're talking to ICANN about getting .int opened up, could you put in a word for .su as well?

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Thanks.

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You know what .su is, right, Lance?

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Yeah, it's of your union.

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Yeah, of course.

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And actually, their entire zone transfer is open.

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If you do a DNS dig zone transfer, you can actually pull all of .su's domains.

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That's funny.

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Can you still sign up for .su?

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I don't know if you can sign up for them.

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I haven't really looked into signing up for them.

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But the best thing to do is maybe go to www.su and see if that works.

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Hold on, let me give it a shot.

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So, you need to try this.

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Sometimes, a lot of times, you'll find out.

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Welcome to .su.com.

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Vacation packages, hotels.

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It doesn't look like I can do it.

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Phoenix, Novosibirsk.

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Phoenix, Novosibirsk.

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Phoenix, Novosibirsk.

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Let's turn that.

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No, it doesn't look like it's freely available to do it.

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Yeah.

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There is.

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There's probably something you have to go.

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Yeah, it might be being phased out just because the Soviet Union has been for it for like 15 years now.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But it is funny because I see them being used.

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There was one, Nevesta, N-E-V-E-S-T-A dot S-P-B dot S-U, I think what it was.

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So, people are adding like subdomains to them because they own them still.

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Or S-B-P, one of these two.

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I'm trying to know.

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One of those two.

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But basically, I'm seeing a lot of, you know, dot S-U sites, but they're always, you know, subdomains because I think that the old ISP holders are just giving them subdomains.

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Anyway.

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Yeah, interesting.

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Okay, our next email is from NUI.

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He says,

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Hello, I've been assigned by my group members to gather data as to how much bandwidth is used in Internet radio streams.

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I'm kind of tired, so please excuse any sloppiness.

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I have a group presentation at school, and the assignment is,

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Someone donated $250,000.

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Yeah, $250,000, didn't put a comment there.

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To the college, and we are to do something with the money to benefit the school and community.

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We picked to do an Internet radio station, and immediately, I thought, Rant Radio and Binrev.

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I've done some research, and I've run into a problem, so I decided to ask you about how much bandwidth per day slash month with,

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I'll start with 100 listeners max at two bit rates, 24 and 96, or 128, preferably two channels.

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I found this example, but I don't understand it entirely.

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He has 96 kilohertz times 24-bit times two channels stereo equals,

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sorry, divided by one equals,

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I think by one, equals 4,608 kilobits a second,

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and 4,608 kbps divided by eight is, times 60 seconds equals,

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34,560 kilobits per minute of audio,

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34.5 megabytes.

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And he says,

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I don't understand if that is per listener or what,

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and so, if,

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and if so,

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then wouldn't you go through 50 gigs a day,

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just for one listener?

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Hold on.

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Is the above example probably before compression?

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Anyway, if you could help me in any way,

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it would be much appreciated.

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Thanks, Eric.

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By the way, you guys rock.

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Yeah, let me look at math right there.

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Yeah.

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So, while you're looking at that,

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I'll just say, you know,

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pretty much the figure is per listener,

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but bear in mind that stereo at 96 kilohertz

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is totally insane for bandwidth.

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What we do for bin rev radio is we sample with 22,000,

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yeah, 22,000 samples per second,

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mono, 24 kilobits a second.

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And the bit rate is really the defining factor,

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because no matter what your sample rate is,

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it's the bit rate that you have to worry about

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in the stream side of things.

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And when compressed,

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we stream MP3,

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and the podcast ends up being roughly the same size

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as the live show.

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So, 90 minutes of audio is typically about 15 to 17 megabytes.

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So, whenever we have a listener listening for 90 minutes,

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it's 15 to 17 megabytes for that listener over 90 minutes.

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So, that's about 240 megabytes per day per listener,

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assuming that the listeners are all sitting there

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listening constantly, 24-7.

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The bin rev radio itself typically has,

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let's see how many people are listening to it right now.

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Let me go to the website here.

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We've only got 15 listeners,

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but typically we have between 20 and 30 listeners

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listening to bin rev radio.

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It's because I came on the show.

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Beg your pardon?

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It's because I came on the show.

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Yeah, everyone hates you, Lance.

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Everyone hates you.

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But yeah, no, typically we do have between 20 and 30 listeners.

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And although, I've looked at the stream schedule,

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and it tends to be, you know,

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most of the, during the day,

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it's about two people listening, sadly.

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So, I really don't,

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if you guess like 240 megabytes a day per listener,

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imagine at least one person listening constantly,

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you could do the math there.

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But it depends also on what you want to stream.

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If you're going to stream, you know,

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just talk,

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then you can get away with doing something like

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24 kilobits a second, 22,000 hertz.

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Yeah, that's what I was about to say.

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If it's a radio show,

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and you're not doing too much music,

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you know,

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and it's not based around music,

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it's more of a talk show,

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then you can definitely have multiple,

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anything you could offer multiple bit rates

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and multiple kilohertz,

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you know,

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streaming rates.

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That's what I was thinking.

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Because it could get heavy duty.

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I mean,

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I think this algorithm is proper.

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I think he's technically accurate.

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Mm-hmm.

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So,

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because you're already saying that,

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how many,

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what did you say earlier?

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You said your show was,

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I mean,

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when you pop it into an MP3,

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how big is it?

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It's about 15 to 17 megabytes.

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Right.

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And,

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we know that they're going to stream that

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a little bit less.

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Because,

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are you,

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how are you encoding your MP3?

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It's 22,000 hertz,

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24 kbps,

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mono.

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Okay.

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So,

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yeah,

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I mean,

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you're going to save on,

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you know,

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yeah.

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And that's usually standard,

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I think,

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radio show,

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talk show,

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type anyways.

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You're not going to need,

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you know,

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I mean,

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some people probably do stereo,

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but,

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you know,

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most people listening onto it

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are not going to be concerned

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with all the high fidelity

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if it was a radio station,

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that would be a different story.

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And that's obviously,

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the people who are running radio stations

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with music

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or Yahoo music

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and people who have

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gigabit backends and stuff.

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But,

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I think his outlet rhythm

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is about right.

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But,

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he should just lower it down

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to 22 kilohertz

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or,

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or,

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he could even try 64

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and see how that works.

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You know,

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something like that.

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Or 48,

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I'm sorry,

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48 times 24

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and then see if that works out

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and has a better,

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you know.

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So,

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depending on their pipe

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is really how they're going

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to judge it

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and depending on the content

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as well,

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I would think.

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Unless,

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correct me if I'm wrong,

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you're the one running the show.

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Yeah.

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No,

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I'm not the one running

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the server.

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Oh,

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no,

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no,

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no,

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I meant like you're talking

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though,

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so,

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you know.

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Yeah.

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I'm just the pseudo guest host.

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Hey,

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your input is always appreciated.

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And everybody hates me.

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There's five less viewers today.

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Yeah.

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Well,

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I'm looking at like,

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we had 17 a second ago

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and now it's 16,

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so.

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Yeah,

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yeah,

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just because I said

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something stupid,

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see.

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Yes,

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we want you all

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to die now

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and stop listening.

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Yes,

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don't listen anymore.

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Oh,

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shoot,

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we just got 20 users.

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It's that whole

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reverse psychology thing.

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Don't think about

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pink elephant,

13:03.420 --> 13:03.800
they think about

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pink elephant.

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Here's a topic,

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T-Mobile,

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Paris Hilton attack,

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that hack that happened

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a few months ago

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or maybe six months ago,

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whatever.

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Yeah.

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Turns out it sold

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sidekicks.

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Everybody was like,

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oh my gosh,

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she's got a sidekick?

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Oh,

13:15.360 --> 13:15.880
we should get one.

13:15.940 --> 13:16.420
It was better than

13:16.420 --> 13:17.000
her endorsement

13:17.000 --> 13:17.480
on television.

13:18.100 --> 13:18.700
That's hilarious.

13:19.580 --> 13:19.880
Yeah,

13:20.040 --> 13:20.640
so it actually

13:20.640 --> 13:21.320
upped the sales.

13:21.680 --> 13:21.860
Wow.

13:21.860 --> 13:22.280
So keep hacking

13:22.280 --> 13:22.760
T-Mobile,

13:22.940 --> 13:24.140
you'll up their sales.

13:26.560 --> 13:26.960
Funny.

13:27.720 --> 13:28.580
That is funny.

13:29.840 --> 13:30.240
But yeah,

13:30.500 --> 13:31.140
again,

13:31.380 --> 13:32.020
I'm not an expert

13:32.020 --> 13:32.560
on streaming,

13:32.760 --> 13:33.400
so someone who

13:33.400 --> 13:34.260
actually lives

13:34.260 --> 13:34.660
and breathes

13:34.660 --> 13:34.940
this stuff

13:34.940 --> 13:35.300
can probably

13:35.300 --> 13:35.580
help you

13:35.580 --> 13:36.300
better than we can.

13:36.800 --> 13:37.160
Yeah,

13:37.300 --> 13:37.860
but the algorithm

13:37.860 --> 13:39.000
does look accurate.

13:39.520 --> 13:40.520
I would just lower the,

13:40.860 --> 13:41.280
if you're doing

13:41.280 --> 13:41.820
the talk show,

13:41.880 --> 13:42.200
lower it down

13:42.200 --> 13:43.120
to 22 kilohertz,

13:43.220 --> 13:43.700
you don't need

13:43.700 --> 13:44.380
a 24-bit

13:44.380 --> 13:45.020
and two channels.

13:45.180 --> 13:45.420
You can go

13:45.420 --> 13:46.100
into mono mode,

13:46.100 --> 13:46.680
so that'll

13:46.680 --> 13:47.320
exponentially

13:47.320 --> 13:48.040
drop you down

13:48.040 --> 13:48.280
a bit.

13:48.620 --> 13:48.740
Yeah,

13:48.780 --> 13:49.140
in fact,

13:49.200 --> 13:49.760
the only reason

13:49.760 --> 13:50.780
we could actually

13:50.780 --> 13:51.340
stream it

13:51.340 --> 13:52.080
at far less

13:52.080 --> 13:52.500
than what we

13:52.500 --> 13:52.820
stream it

13:52.820 --> 13:53.140
at now,

13:53.220 --> 13:53.600
we could probably

13:53.600 --> 13:54.000
stream it

13:54.000 --> 13:54.420
at like

13:54.420 --> 13:55.940
maybe 16 kilobits

13:55.940 --> 13:56.360
a second

13:56.360 --> 13:57.400
and 8,000

13:57.400 --> 13:58.300
samples a second

13:58.300 --> 13:59.240
since we are

13:59.240 --> 13:59.940
talking on the phone,

14:00.020 --> 14:00.780
but because the show

14:00.780 --> 14:01.920
does incorporate music,

14:02.800 --> 14:03.660
then we have to

14:03.660 --> 14:04.160
stream at the higher

14:04.160 --> 14:04.460
bandwidth.

14:06.240 --> 14:06.640
And if you're

14:06.640 --> 14:07.340
thinking of streaming

14:07.340 --> 14:08.580
all music all the time,

14:08.780 --> 14:10.240
better look into

14:10.240 --> 14:11.100
high volume

14:11.100 --> 14:12.540
optical carrier

14:12.540 --> 14:13.340
for your connection.

14:13.480 --> 14:13.580
Yeah,

14:13.680 --> 14:14.280
call Akamai.

14:14.280 --> 14:15.980
Akamai or

14:15.980 --> 14:16.560
AT&T or

14:16.560 --> 14:16.860
somebody.

14:17.740 --> 14:17.980
Yep.

14:18.760 --> 14:19.200
All right.

14:19.460 --> 14:19.560
So,

14:19.760 --> 14:20.720
management companies.

14:21.140 --> 14:21.520
Exactly.

14:23.620 --> 14:24.020
So,

14:24.180 --> 14:25.820
personal stories.

14:27.160 --> 14:27.700
I guess I'll

14:27.700 --> 14:28.180
start off,

14:28.280 --> 14:28.600
actually,

14:28.700 --> 14:28.780
no,

14:28.840 --> 14:29.300
what have you

14:29.300 --> 14:29.660
been doing

14:29.660 --> 14:30.040
recently,

14:30.180 --> 14:30.360
Lance?

14:30.360 --> 14:30.700
What have you

14:30.700 --> 14:31.040
been doing

14:31.040 --> 14:31.620
in the hacking

14:31.620 --> 14:32.000
world?

14:32.580 --> 14:33.240
In the hacking

14:33.240 --> 14:33.620
world?

14:33.860 --> 14:34.600
Now you've got to

14:34.600 --> 14:35.220
think about stuff

14:35.220 --> 14:35.740
that I'm allowed

14:35.740 --> 14:36.460
to talk about.

14:36.700 --> 14:37.340
Hold on.

14:37.340 --> 14:39.940
Well,

14:40.060 --> 14:40.480
recently,

14:40.760 --> 14:41.400
I guess I can

14:41.400 --> 14:41.980
kind of tell it,

14:42.040 --> 14:42.440
probably in this

14:42.440 --> 14:42.640
channel,

14:42.700 --> 14:43.040
since you only

14:43.040 --> 14:44.220
have like 80

14:44.220 --> 14:44.980
top viewers or

14:44.980 --> 14:45.380
whatever right

14:45.380 --> 14:45.600
now,

14:45.740 --> 14:46.940
our listeners.

14:50.520 --> 14:51.460
Ultimate IRCD

14:51.460 --> 14:53.040
is cracked.

14:53.560 --> 14:53.960
Yesterday,

14:54.140 --> 14:54.860
I cracked another

14:54.860 --> 14:55.520
encryption that a

14:55.520 --> 14:56.340
phisher was using

14:56.340 --> 14:57.040
to hide their

14:57.040 --> 14:58.240
blind drop.

14:59.040 --> 15:00.760
I've done some,

15:00.840 --> 15:01.080
oh,

15:01.420 --> 15:02.340
some neat stuff.

15:02.460 --> 15:02.700
Okay,

15:02.820 --> 15:02.940
well,

15:02.980 --> 15:03.500
this is like a

15:03.500 --> 15:03.980
long story,

15:04.080 --> 15:04.520
but it's okay.

15:04.620 --> 15:05.700
I'll try to get it

15:05.700 --> 15:06.000
short.

15:06.000 --> 15:07.360
I've been

15:07.360 --> 15:08.120
watching over

15:08.120 --> 15:08.860
53 phishing

15:08.860 --> 15:09.160
groups,

15:09.260 --> 15:09.660
but there's a

15:09.660 --> 15:10.140
certain phishing

15:10.140 --> 15:10.600
group that I

15:10.600 --> 15:11.180
like to watch

15:11.180 --> 15:11.520
because they're

15:11.520 --> 15:12.120
fun and very

15:12.120 --> 15:12.740
aggressive and

15:12.740 --> 15:13.260
very Russian.

15:14.700 --> 15:15.320
And they're

15:15.320 --> 15:16.340
very technical,

15:16.560 --> 15:16.880
and so I

15:16.880 --> 15:17.360
actually have

15:17.360 --> 15:18.360
kind of a

15:18.360 --> 15:19.160
deep understanding

15:19.160 --> 15:19.880
of respect for

15:19.880 --> 15:20.100
them,

15:20.680 --> 15:21.380
even though I

15:21.380 --> 15:21.880
want to see

15:21.880 --> 15:22.400
them go down.

15:23.160 --> 15:24.400
So this

15:24.400 --> 15:25.120
group is

15:25.120 --> 15:27.240
very aggressive

15:27.240 --> 15:27.760
and they send

15:27.760 --> 15:28.340
out malware.

15:28.700 --> 15:29.100
Anybody

15:29.100 --> 15:29.580
doesn't know

15:29.580 --> 15:29.800
malware,

15:29.920 --> 15:30.280
it's malicious

15:30.280 --> 15:30.700
software.

15:30.800 --> 15:31.100
It's like a

15:31.100 --> 15:31.600
virus that

15:31.600 --> 15:32.240
steals your

15:32.240 --> 15:32.740
key logs,

15:32.880 --> 15:33.480
any kind of

15:33.480 --> 15:34.120
information you

15:34.120 --> 15:34.540
send on your

15:34.540 --> 15:34.920
computer.

15:34.920 --> 15:36.240
But basically

15:36.240 --> 15:37.140
their techniques

15:37.140 --> 15:37.480
are really

15:37.480 --> 15:37.820
neat,

15:38.020 --> 15:38.360
but I've

15:38.360 --> 15:38.700
gotten to the

15:38.700 --> 15:38.960
point of

15:38.960 --> 15:41.080
identifying their

15:41.080 --> 15:41.760
attack pattern

15:41.760 --> 15:42.480
and I know

15:42.480 --> 15:42.760
when they're

15:42.760 --> 15:43.180
going to hit.

15:44.120 --> 15:44.680
And I know

15:44.680 --> 15:45.360
so well that I

15:45.360 --> 15:45.840
actually am

15:45.840 --> 15:46.340
like two days

15:46.340 --> 15:46.740
ahead of them.

15:47.200 --> 15:47.880
So the last

15:47.880 --> 15:48.400
time they set

15:48.400 --> 15:49.080
up some

15:49.080 --> 15:49.480
malware,

15:49.660 --> 15:50.160
actually before

15:50.160 --> 15:50.560
the last

15:50.560 --> 15:50.760
time,

15:50.840 --> 15:51.100
so it was

15:51.100 --> 15:51.640
one time

15:51.640 --> 15:52.300
before that,

15:53.120 --> 15:54.200
basically what

15:54.200 --> 15:54.620
I did was

15:54.620 --> 15:55.240
predict where

15:55.240 --> 15:55.580
it was going

15:55.580 --> 15:56.640
to be tested

15:56.640 --> 15:56.860
at.

15:56.920 --> 15:57.820
So I found

15:57.820 --> 15:58.300
their test

15:58.300 --> 15:59.200
sites twice

15:59.200 --> 16:00.460
and basically

16:00.460 --> 16:01.320
analyzed the

16:01.320 --> 16:02.040
malware and I

16:02.040 --> 16:02.960
basically reverse

16:02.960 --> 16:03.640
engineered it and

16:03.640 --> 16:04.140
found where

16:04.140 --> 16:04.560
they actually

16:04.560 --> 16:05.100
send all the

16:05.100 --> 16:05.760
data to and

16:05.760 --> 16:06.300
I got those

16:06.300 --> 16:06.820
shut down

16:06.820 --> 16:07.360
before they

16:07.360 --> 16:08.680
ever sent

16:08.680 --> 16:09.040
them out.

16:09.420 --> 16:09.800
So when they

16:09.800 --> 16:10.200
tried to send

16:10.200 --> 16:10.460
it out,

16:10.520 --> 16:10.720
they got

16:10.720 --> 16:11.240
confused and

16:11.240 --> 16:11.560
thought the

16:11.560 --> 16:12.020
malware was

16:12.020 --> 16:12.620
broken and

16:12.620 --> 16:13.560
probably complained

16:13.560 --> 16:14.160
to the author

16:14.160 --> 16:14.720
of the malware.

16:15.240 --> 16:15.960
So it actually

16:15.960 --> 16:16.420
delayed them

16:16.420 --> 16:16.920
about four

16:16.920 --> 16:17.260
weeks.

16:18.060 --> 16:18.700
Recently they

16:18.700 --> 16:19.260
sent out another

16:19.260 --> 16:19.740
one and I'm

16:19.740 --> 16:20.340
just basically,

16:20.640 --> 16:21.300
my hack on

16:21.300 --> 16:21.760
this one was

16:21.760 --> 16:22.340
basically I'm

16:22.340 --> 16:22.960
just stealing

16:22.960 --> 16:23.620
the data back

16:23.620 --> 16:24.160
every single

16:24.160 --> 16:24.840
hour in real

16:24.840 --> 16:25.280
time and

16:25.280 --> 16:26.160
returning it to

16:26.160 --> 16:27.140
the banks.

16:27.640 --> 16:28.420
So they're

16:28.420 --> 16:29.540
basically on

16:29.540 --> 16:29.920
an arrival.

16:30.080 --> 16:30.560
So my whole

16:30.560 --> 16:31.360
thing is fishing

16:31.360 --> 16:31.960
the fishers.

16:32.840 --> 16:33.140
Awesome.

16:33.140 --> 16:33.440
That's my

16:33.440 --> 16:33.840
hack of the

16:33.840 --> 16:34.040
week.

16:35.940 --> 16:36.200
Totally

16:36.200 --> 16:36.480
awesome.

16:36.620 --> 16:37.200
Yeah, I

16:37.200 --> 16:37.860
haven't done

16:37.860 --> 16:38.620
any major

16:38.620 --> 16:39.260
hacking this

16:39.260 --> 16:39.560
week.

16:40.420 --> 16:40.900
There's some

16:40.900 --> 16:42.020
interesting

16:42.020 --> 16:42.900
telephone stuff

16:42.900 --> 16:44.360
which I've

16:44.360 --> 16:44.720
been talking

16:44.720 --> 16:45.100
with Lucky

16:45.100 --> 16:45.840
225 and

16:45.840 --> 16:46.320
Natus and

16:46.320 --> 16:46.980
they discovered

16:46.980 --> 16:47.220
something

16:47.220 --> 16:47.800
interesting which

16:47.800 --> 16:48.720
will be published

16:48.720 --> 16:49.260
in Binary

16:49.260 --> 16:50.080
Revolution magazine

16:50.080 --> 16:50.700
so I'm not

16:50.700 --> 16:51.220
supposed to talk

16:51.220 --> 16:51.760
about it yet.

16:52.860 --> 16:53.380
Although I

16:53.380 --> 16:53.920
wrote a thing

16:53.920 --> 16:54.580
on it like six

16:54.580 --> 16:55.260
months ago and

16:55.260 --> 16:55.920
it slashed out but

16:55.920 --> 16:56.500
this one's slightly

16:56.500 --> 16:57.460
different so give

16:57.460 --> 16:58.100
Lucky his props.

16:58.220 --> 16:58.640
He's got something

16:58.640 --> 16:59.220
very cool going.

16:59.380 --> 16:59.880
I can't wait to

16:59.880 --> 17:00.200
see it.

17:00.660 --> 17:00.800
Yeah.

17:01.120 --> 17:03.480
But a

17:03.480 --> 17:04.180
highlight is

17:04.180 --> 17:05.000
everybody go

17:05.000 --> 17:05.800
ahead right now

17:05.800 --> 17:06.620
and buy T-Mobile

17:06.620 --> 17:07.240
so when it's

17:07.240 --> 17:07.780
published they're

17:07.780 --> 17:08.700
already in good

17:08.700 --> 17:09.040
standing.

17:11.500 --> 17:12.340
Yeah, I'm sure

17:12.340 --> 17:12.900
I can hint at it.

17:12.920 --> 17:13.220
I don't think

17:13.220 --> 17:13.740
Lucky will kill

17:13.740 --> 17:13.880
me.

17:14.360 --> 17:14.540
Yeah.

17:15.140 --> 17:16.900
But this past

17:16.900 --> 17:17.680
weekend I went

17:17.680 --> 17:18.200
down to San

17:18.200 --> 17:20.280
Diego and went

17:20.280 --> 17:21.720
to the book

17:21.720 --> 17:22.600
release party for

17:22.600 --> 17:23.080
a book called

17:23.080 --> 17:23.840
Fishing Exposed

17:23.840 --> 17:26.280
by someone who

17:26.280 --> 17:26.840
was it by?

17:26.880 --> 17:27.420
Oh yeah, you.

17:28.100 --> 17:29.040
Oh yeah, that

17:29.040 --> 17:29.340
guy.

17:29.340 --> 17:30.140
Yeah, the guy

17:30.140 --> 17:30.460
in the corner

17:30.460 --> 17:30.860
that everybody

17:30.860 --> 17:31.220
hates.

17:31.680 --> 17:31.880
Yeah.

17:32.900 --> 17:34.540
Good food, good

17:34.540 --> 17:36.440
booze, good

17:36.440 --> 17:39.680
people and fish

17:39.680 --> 17:39.960
center people.

17:39.960 --> 17:40.580
It was a good

17:40.580 --> 17:40.860
turnout.

17:41.500 --> 17:42.120
Yeah, it was a

17:42.120 --> 17:42.580
great party.

17:43.340 --> 17:44.520
Yeah, my mother-in-law

17:44.520 --> 17:45.160
actually is the one

17:45.160 --> 17:45.820
who set that all

17:45.820 --> 17:46.040
up.

17:47.820 --> 17:49.360
I prefer to Porsche

17:49.360 --> 17:50.140
but they gave me a

17:50.140 --> 17:50.900
party instead.

17:51.880 --> 17:52.220
No, I'm just

17:52.220 --> 17:52.380
kidding.

17:54.020 --> 17:54.680
Yeah, so it

17:54.680 --> 17:55.760
turned out nice.

17:55.900 --> 17:56.660
I was glad to see

17:56.660 --> 17:57.200
you there actually.

17:57.320 --> 17:57.960
It was kind of, I

17:57.960 --> 17:58.460
guess you got a

17:58.460 --> 17:59.320
last minute invite.

17:59.760 --> 18:00.380
Yeah, I got

18:00.380 --> 18:01.460
invited on the

18:01.460 --> 18:02.120
night before.

18:04.020 --> 18:04.720
What happened?

18:06.140 --> 18:06.540
Josh.

18:06.700 --> 18:07.240
Yeah, Josh

18:07.240 --> 18:08.260
messaged me while

18:08.260 --> 18:09.420
I was at LA 2600 on

18:09.420 --> 18:10.120
Friday night at

18:10.120 --> 18:10.920
like 10 p.m.

18:10.920 --> 18:11.860
and said, drop

18:11.860 --> 18:12.400
what you're doing

18:12.400 --> 18:13.100
and come on down

18:13.100 --> 18:13.340
here.

18:13.420 --> 18:14.000
There's a book

18:14.000 --> 18:14.640
release party.

18:15.740 --> 18:16.060
Yeah.

18:16.340 --> 18:16.700
Sweet.

18:16.820 --> 18:17.620
So I ran back

18:17.620 --> 18:18.280
here, grabbed my

18:18.280 --> 18:21.440
suit and drove

18:21.440 --> 18:22.160
down there late

18:22.160 --> 18:23.040
at night saving

18:23.040 --> 18:25.300
off narcolepsy.

18:25.300 --> 18:27.100
Yeah, no.

18:27.220 --> 18:27.700
Oh, you know

18:27.700 --> 18:27.960
what?

18:28.140 --> 18:29.880
It's funny that you

18:29.880 --> 18:30.560
say narcolepsy

18:30.560 --> 18:31.420
because, or not

18:31.420 --> 18:32.260
narcolepsy but

18:32.260 --> 18:33.000
something to do

18:33.000 --> 18:33.400
with sleep.

18:35.260 --> 18:36.140
That night though,

18:36.340 --> 18:37.640
I had a Murphy's

18:37.640 --> 18:38.360
Law but here's the

18:38.360 --> 18:38.920
funniest thing is

18:38.920 --> 18:39.900
like all of my

18:39.900 --> 18:40.640
developers showed

18:40.640 --> 18:41.440
up for the party

18:41.440 --> 18:42.920
at my company and

18:42.920 --> 18:43.520
they came from all

18:43.520 --> 18:45.360
over Seattle, Canada,

18:45.860 --> 18:46.480
New York and

18:46.480 --> 18:48.120
stuff and Riverside.

18:49.260 --> 18:49.580
And it's funny

18:49.580 --> 18:50.000
because I hadn't

18:50.000 --> 18:51.000
seen one of the

18:51.000 --> 18:51.560
guys from Seattle,

18:51.680 --> 18:52.920
Tony, for eight

18:52.920 --> 18:53.580
years and we were

18:53.580 --> 18:54.380
kind of like, you

18:54.380 --> 18:55.300
know, we used to be

18:55.300 --> 18:56.160
hackers in the day

18:56.160 --> 18:56.800
and it was crazy.

18:57.660 --> 18:59.220
And what happened

18:59.220 --> 19:00.460
is like, when I

19:00.460 --> 19:00.900
used to hang out

19:00.900 --> 19:01.500
with him, it was

19:01.500 --> 19:02.020
just the same.

19:02.100 --> 19:02.560
We'd always be

19:02.560 --> 19:03.160
pretty much living

19:03.160 --> 19:03.820
on sleep depth

19:03.820 --> 19:04.280
because we were

19:04.280 --> 19:04.800
such, you know,

19:04.860 --> 19:05.500
hacker types.

19:05.620 --> 19:06.220
We'd stay up late

19:06.220 --> 19:06.980
hours and then

19:06.980 --> 19:08.280
just crash, you

19:08.280 --> 19:08.420
know.

19:09.320 --> 19:10.620
And it's funny

19:10.620 --> 19:10.980
because when he

19:10.980 --> 19:11.980
came, just Murphy's

19:11.980 --> 19:12.780
Law just hit in

19:12.780 --> 19:13.520
my, you know, I

19:13.520 --> 19:14.300
got to my hotel.

19:14.400 --> 19:14.720
They all stayed

19:14.720 --> 19:15.420
at the same hotel

19:15.420 --> 19:16.660
and stuff and

19:16.660 --> 19:17.300
basically what

19:17.300 --> 19:19.300
happened was I

19:19.300 --> 19:19.860
went back and

19:19.860 --> 19:20.280
said, okay, I

19:20.280 --> 19:20.800
got to get home,

19:20.880 --> 19:21.260
you know, two

19:21.260 --> 19:21.600
o'clock in the

19:21.600 --> 19:22.040
morning or three

19:22.040 --> 19:22.400
o'clock in the

19:22.400 --> 19:23.220
morning and I

19:23.220 --> 19:23.760
go to the parking

19:23.760 --> 19:25.060
lot and when I

19:25.060 --> 19:25.820
even didn't have

19:25.820 --> 19:26.740
my Visa card, my

19:26.740 --> 19:27.400
wife had my

19:27.400 --> 19:27.960
wallet and I'm

19:27.960 --> 19:28.540
like, oh, great,

19:28.640 --> 19:29.300
you know, and so

19:29.300 --> 19:30.600
Tom was nice enough

19:30.600 --> 19:31.060
to owe me his

19:31.060 --> 19:31.380
Visa card.

19:31.480 --> 19:31.960
I head back there

19:31.960 --> 19:32.900
and my car, his

19:32.900 --> 19:33.540
lights were on

19:33.540 --> 19:34.140
all night and my

19:34.140 --> 19:35.000
car's battery was

19:35.000 --> 19:36.140
dead and pretty

19:36.140 --> 19:37.320
much even though I

19:37.320 --> 19:38.460
got a, you know,

19:38.520 --> 19:39.160
like someone to do

19:39.160 --> 19:40.080
a, you know, the,

19:40.180 --> 19:40.740
you know, the,

19:40.880 --> 19:41.240
what do they call

19:41.240 --> 19:42.040
it, the bumper, the

19:42.040 --> 19:43.580
jumper cables, you

19:43.580 --> 19:44.100
know, it didn't

19:44.100 --> 19:44.400
charge.

19:44.460 --> 19:45.400
It was totally dead.

19:45.540 --> 19:45.880
One of those

19:45.880 --> 19:46.340
things where it was

19:46.340 --> 19:46.740
just one of those

19:46.740 --> 19:47.300
nights so I was

19:47.300 --> 19:47.740
screwed because I

19:47.740 --> 19:48.140
had to buy a

19:48.140 --> 19:48.340
battery.

19:48.840 --> 19:49.540
So I went back to

19:49.540 --> 19:50.140
the hotel with

19:50.140 --> 19:50.800
them and we stayed

19:50.800 --> 19:51.740
up and got two

19:51.740 --> 19:52.280
hours of sleep

19:52.280 --> 19:52.780
and, you know,

19:52.780 --> 19:53.460
went to breakfast

19:53.460 --> 19:54.060
to have to drop

19:54.060 --> 19:54.480
off one of the

19:54.480 --> 19:54.800
guys at the

19:54.800 --> 19:55.260
airport and

19:55.260 --> 19:56.140
install a battery.

19:56.580 --> 19:56.960
We bought a

19:56.960 --> 19:58.180
bunch of, I

19:58.180 --> 19:58.460
don't know if

19:58.460 --> 19:58.900
anybody knows

19:58.900 --> 19:59.640
the ball drink,

19:59.760 --> 20:00.620
B-A-W-L-S.

20:01.180 --> 20:01.820
Of course, a ton

20:01.820 --> 20:03.200
of sleep deprivation

20:03.200 --> 20:03.880
jokes on that

20:03.880 --> 20:04.100
drink.

20:05.560 --> 20:06.180
But, you know,

20:06.220 --> 20:06.820
it's funny because

20:06.820 --> 20:07.440
it just happened to

20:07.440 --> 20:07.900
me that, you

20:07.900 --> 20:08.980
know, that party

20:08.980 --> 20:09.840
was like completely

20:09.840 --> 20:10.660
never ended and it

20:10.660 --> 20:11.200
was on accident

20:11.200 --> 20:11.800
the whole time.

20:13.400 --> 20:14.200
So anyway, it

20:14.200 --> 20:14.740
was just funny.

20:15.100 --> 20:15.460
That's hilarious.

20:16.700 --> 20:17.420
Yeah, so that

20:17.420 --> 20:18.120
was an interesting

20:18.120 --> 20:18.980
night for me because

20:18.980 --> 20:19.900
it was more than

20:19.900 --> 20:21.740
I was ready for.

20:22.060 --> 20:22.800
But it was a fun

20:22.800 --> 20:23.000
party.

20:23.120 --> 20:23.640
Thanks for coming,

20:23.880 --> 20:24.060
Strom.

20:24.120 --> 20:24.780
I really appreciated

20:24.780 --> 20:25.260
seeing you there.

20:25.500 --> 20:26.100
Oh, hey, thanks for

20:26.100 --> 20:26.300
inviting me.

20:26.300 --> 20:26.800
Had I had your

20:26.800 --> 20:27.540
email address earlier,

20:27.600 --> 20:27.960
you would have been

20:27.960 --> 20:28.820
invited a lot earlier.

20:29.120 --> 20:29.480
Oh, cool.

20:29.560 --> 20:30.340
Well, now you've got

20:30.340 --> 20:30.520
it.

20:31.700 --> 20:32.720
So, yes, I do now.

20:33.180 --> 20:33.800
So it's actually

20:33.800 --> 20:34.320
pretty easy.

20:35.320 --> 20:36.240
Yeah, pretty damn

20:36.240 --> 20:36.460
easy.

20:36.940 --> 20:37.260
The cool thing...

20:37.260 --> 20:37.880
I think I'll go

20:37.880 --> 20:38.480
announce it for all

20:38.480 --> 20:38.840
the spammers

20:38.840 --> 20:39.200
listening.

20:39.440 --> 20:39.800
Just kidding.

20:40.040 --> 20:40.460
Yeah, yeah.

20:41.300 --> 20:42.020
Well, it's on my

20:42.020 --> 20:42.680
website, so you

20:42.680 --> 20:43.620
just want to just

20:43.620 --> 20:44.700
go to StromCarlson.com

20:44.700 --> 20:45.500
and spam me from

20:45.500 --> 20:45.660
there.

20:46.560 --> 20:47.160
No, the cool thing

20:47.160 --> 20:47.900
about the party was

20:47.900 --> 20:48.580
that the whole

20:48.580 --> 20:49.560
thing was fish

20:49.560 --> 20:49.880
themed.

20:50.880 --> 20:51.920
Oh, yeah, and you

20:51.920 --> 20:52.540
got your own beta

20:52.540 --> 20:52.860
fish.

20:53.080 --> 20:54.240
Yeah, yeah, I got

20:54.240 --> 20:55.980
one of the center

20:55.980 --> 20:56.500
pieces on the

20:56.500 --> 20:57.720
tables were betas

20:57.720 --> 20:58.180
and little fish

20:58.180 --> 20:58.400
bowls.

20:59.520 --> 21:00.640
So I've got one,

21:00.800 --> 21:01.280
and now he's

21:01.280 --> 21:01.720
sitting on my

21:01.720 --> 21:02.040
desk.

21:02.980 --> 21:03.840
And he is the

21:03.840 --> 21:04.480
official fish of

21:04.480 --> 21:05.180
Fishing Exposed,

21:05.260 --> 21:05.560
I think.

21:06.700 --> 21:07.700
Yeah, yeah, he's

21:07.700 --> 21:08.080
official.

21:08.380 --> 21:09.040
I mean, he's...

21:09.040 --> 21:09.660
It was so funny

21:09.660 --> 21:11.240
because, like I was

21:11.240 --> 21:11.940
saying earlier, my

21:11.940 --> 21:12.640
mother-in-law came

21:12.640 --> 21:13.100
up with the whole

21:13.100 --> 21:13.920
idea of that and

21:13.920 --> 21:14.200
everything.

21:14.420 --> 21:14.880
And my mom

21:14.880 --> 21:15.660
actually came up

21:15.660 --> 21:16.080
with it, and she

21:16.080 --> 21:16.840
wasn't there, but

21:16.840 --> 21:17.400
she came up with

21:17.400 --> 21:17.840
the bookmark.

21:17.900 --> 21:20.560
And it's funny.

21:20.640 --> 21:21.000
Did you get a

21:21.000 --> 21:21.320
bookmark?

21:21.580 --> 21:22.140
You know, I

21:22.140 --> 21:22.900
grabbed a bookmark,

21:22.960 --> 21:23.740
and I can't find it

21:23.740 --> 21:24.380
in my book, so I

21:24.380 --> 21:25.220
think it must have

21:25.220 --> 21:25.620
dropped out.

21:25.960 --> 21:26.660
Anybody who ever

21:26.660 --> 21:27.280
writes a book and

21:27.280 --> 21:27.740
you ever do a

21:27.740 --> 21:28.480
promotional party

21:28.480 --> 21:29.280
about your book or

21:29.280 --> 21:30.400
just a release party,

21:30.900 --> 21:31.800
take your book and

21:31.800 --> 21:32.740
put all the stuff on

21:32.740 --> 21:33.600
a bookmark because

21:33.600 --> 21:34.500
it's a great gift

21:34.500 --> 21:35.820
for when you get

21:35.820 --> 21:36.540
someone's book.

21:37.500 --> 21:38.280
And it's just a

21:38.280 --> 21:38.900
great promotional

21:38.900 --> 21:39.260
tool.

21:39.620 --> 21:40.240
So all those

21:40.240 --> 21:40.840
hackers out there

21:40.840 --> 21:41.800
are just writing a

21:41.800 --> 21:42.500
book or working on

21:42.500 --> 21:42.800
a book.

21:44.020 --> 21:44.940
So the idea to your

21:44.940 --> 21:45.720
publishers, well, if

21:45.720 --> 21:47.000
they ever put together

21:47.000 --> 21:47.660
something or things

21:47.660 --> 21:48.260
like that or hand

21:48.260 --> 21:49.460
out bookmarks because

21:49.460 --> 21:49.860
they're a great

21:49.860 --> 21:50.580
marketing tool and

21:50.580 --> 21:52.060
it's not like they're

21:52.060 --> 21:52.800
huge, so you don't

21:52.800 --> 21:53.260
have to carry them

21:53.260 --> 21:54.880
around everywhere and

21:54.880 --> 21:55.460
you just kind of have

21:55.460 --> 21:56.140
them in your books.

21:56.520 --> 21:57.020
Yeah, totally.

21:57.020 --> 21:59.100
So, but it was neat

21:59.100 --> 22:00.060
because my mom works

22:00.060 --> 22:01.260
at a bookstore, so

22:01.260 --> 22:02.220
she's used to book

22:02.220 --> 22:03.200
signings, so she

22:03.200 --> 22:04.260
came up and said,

22:04.340 --> 22:05.180
here's something that's

22:05.180 --> 22:05.520
popular.

22:06.460 --> 22:08.500
So, anyways, it is a

22:08.500 --> 22:08.840
neat party.

22:08.980 --> 22:10.100
I enjoyed it and I

22:10.100 --> 22:10.960
hope you enjoyed it and

22:10.960 --> 22:12.200
I think most people

22:12.200 --> 22:12.420
did.

22:13.940 --> 22:14.500
Oh, yeah.

22:14.800 --> 22:15.560
And, of course, I got

22:15.560 --> 22:16.640
my own autographed by

22:16.640 --> 22:17.500
the author copy of

22:17.500 --> 22:18.340
Fishing Exposed.

22:19.140 --> 22:20.200
Yeah, what did I say

22:20.200 --> 22:20.780
about you, Ken?

22:21.120 --> 22:22.060
You wrote, hi,

22:22.160 --> 22:22.800
Strom, keep the

22:22.800 --> 22:24.040
freak in you, Lance.

22:24.040 --> 22:28.060
So, yeah, I thought

22:28.060 --> 22:28.560
that was neat.

22:29.060 --> 22:29.820
That was pretty cute.

22:30.780 --> 22:33.080
So, yeah, I signed my

22:33.080 --> 22:34.120
own copy for me and I

22:34.120 --> 22:34.960
said, just kidding.

22:37.160 --> 22:38.100
No, hi, Lance.

22:38.100 --> 22:38.840
To myself, but

22:38.840 --> 22:39.160
the way that

22:39.160 --> 22:40.060
really often die.

22:41.200 --> 22:42.060
Everybody else hates

22:42.060 --> 22:42.900
you, but as long as

22:42.900 --> 22:43.760
you like yourself, you're

22:43.760 --> 22:43.980
okay.

22:44.860 --> 22:45.540
To myself with

22:45.540 --> 22:46.400
admiration, love, and

22:46.400 --> 22:46.980
kisses, Lance.

22:49.500 --> 22:49.900
Exactly.

22:49.900 --> 22:52.260
So, yeah, so I wrote

22:52.260 --> 22:52.900
this book.

22:52.900 --> 22:54.560
It's 50 pages shorter

22:54.560 --> 22:55.280
than I wanted, but

22:55.280 --> 22:56.480
that's the publisher's

22:56.480 --> 22:56.700
fault.

22:57.460 --> 22:59.080
Well, including the,

22:59.100 --> 22:59.980
well, not including the

22:59.980 --> 23:02.680
index, the book is, at

23:02.680 --> 23:03.800
the end of chapter 7,

23:03.860 --> 23:04.840
380 pages.

23:05.400 --> 23:06.180
Yeah, it's supposed to

23:06.180 --> 23:07.260
be like 450, really.

23:07.480 --> 23:08.280
So, they're lying to you

23:08.280 --> 23:08.840
when it says it on

23:08.840 --> 23:09.140
Amazon.

23:09.600 --> 23:10.740
But buy it anyways,

23:10.780 --> 23:11.380
it's still worth it.

23:11.900 --> 23:12.080
Yeah.

23:12.800 --> 23:13.920
So, anyway, I guess

23:13.920 --> 23:14.740
let's go into the meat

23:14.740 --> 23:15.280
of our show.

23:15.380 --> 23:16.540
And, by the way, for

23:16.540 --> 23:17.660
those of you listening to

23:17.660 --> 23:18.780
us live, we are live

23:18.780 --> 23:19.120
tonight.

23:19.560 --> 23:20.080
And if you have

23:20.080 --> 23:21.160
questions for myself

23:21.160 --> 23:22.000
or Lance, you can

23:22.000 --> 23:22.460
call us.

23:22.460 --> 23:23.000
I'll announce the

23:23.000 --> 23:23.480
numbers again.

23:24.140 --> 23:24.940
From the United

23:24.940 --> 23:26.260
States, call toll-free

23:26.260 --> 23:29.200
800-732-0442.

23:29.700 --> 23:32.980
Again, 800-732-0442.

23:33.920 --> 23:34.380
Or, if you're

23:34.380 --> 23:34.800
calling from...

23:34.800 --> 23:35.400
I have to call myself.

23:35.740 --> 23:35.920
Sorry.

23:35.960 --> 23:36.180
I'm sorry?

23:36.920 --> 23:37.560
I said, if you don't

23:37.560 --> 23:38.440
call, I'll call myself.

23:39.400 --> 23:39.800
Right.

23:40.260 --> 23:41.020
And if you're calling

23:41.020 --> 23:42.280
from outside the U.S.,

23:42.280 --> 23:43.140
dial country code

23:43.140 --> 23:47.200
1-213-415-1047.

23:47.200 --> 23:48.420
Again, country code

23:48.420 --> 23:52.800
1-213-415-1047.

23:53.520 --> 23:53.800
Yes.

23:53.860 --> 23:54.220
International

23:54.220 --> 23:55.280
callers must pay.

23:55.800 --> 23:56.100
Yes.

23:56.520 --> 23:57.480
Sadly, there's no way.

23:57.720 --> 23:58.760
We tried to get the

23:58.760 --> 23:59.500
toll-free number to at

23:59.500 --> 24:00.400
least work from Canada,

24:00.540 --> 24:01.280
but it doesn't seem to

24:01.280 --> 24:01.820
want to work that way.

24:01.820 --> 24:02.080
Well, you could do the

24:02.080 --> 24:02.960
whole free world dial-up

24:02.960 --> 24:03.680
thing where you can hook

24:03.680 --> 24:04.420
up all the different

24:04.420 --> 24:05.040
international...

24:05.040 --> 24:05.460
We could.

24:05.540 --> 24:05.900
We could.

24:05.960 --> 24:06.500
But, I mean, it's just

24:06.500 --> 24:07.680
more reliable to do it

24:07.680 --> 24:08.740
over a real phone number.

24:08.980 --> 24:09.660
Yeah, I know.

24:10.200 --> 24:11.300
And since the majority

24:11.300 --> 24:12.660
of our listeners look

24:12.660 --> 24:13.540
basic, you know, based

24:13.540 --> 24:15.020
on the map, are in the

24:15.020 --> 24:16.080
U.S., the 800 number

24:16.080 --> 24:17.000
works just fine for the

24:17.000 --> 24:17.360
most part.

24:17.480 --> 24:18.600
Yeah, I mean, too, we

24:18.600 --> 24:19.180
have to provide

24:19.180 --> 24:20.100
translators for all the

24:20.100 --> 24:21.120
international callers.

24:21.180 --> 24:21.980
I mean, you can imagine

24:21.980 --> 24:22.680
the headaches we would

24:22.680 --> 24:23.060
get anyway.

24:23.140 --> 24:23.840
So it's better that they

24:23.840 --> 24:24.720
pay because they pay

24:24.720 --> 24:25.420
to speak English.

24:25.560 --> 24:26.440
And poor Zygman, you

24:26.440 --> 24:26.540
know.

24:26.740 --> 24:28.220
Zygman would just die

24:28.220 --> 24:30.020
under the whole, under

24:30.020 --> 24:30.980
the stress of trying to

24:30.980 --> 24:31.780
translate everything.

24:32.640 --> 24:33.300
Yeah, I know.

24:33.420 --> 24:33.780
It'd be fun.

24:34.060 --> 24:35.280
It reminds me of when I

24:35.280 --> 24:36.460
worked at a large

24:36.460 --> 24:37.240
ticketing company that

24:37.240 --> 24:38.220
was doing the Olympics,

24:38.680 --> 24:39.520
the 2004 Olympics.

24:40.220 --> 24:41.000
And I had to call

24:41.000 --> 24:44.420
Athens, Greece, every

24:44.420 --> 24:45.880
time something went

24:45.880 --> 24:46.280
wrong.

24:46.680 --> 24:47.740
And the international

24:47.740 --> 24:48.720
staffing thing, you

24:48.720 --> 24:49.700
know, it's like they

24:49.700 --> 24:50.920
have people from every

24:50.920 --> 24:51.780
country staffing the

24:51.780 --> 24:52.220
call center.

24:52.840 --> 24:53.600
So you get all these

24:53.600 --> 24:54.620
people who speak English

24:54.620 --> 24:55.440
badly, but a different

24:55.440 --> 24:56.560
variety of bad English

24:56.560 --> 24:57.160
every time.

24:58.580 --> 24:59.900
And that was just a

24:59.900 --> 25:00.160
trip.

25:00.940 --> 25:01.580
Yeah, I can imagine.

25:02.880 --> 25:04.140
Yeah, I wouldn't want

25:04.140 --> 25:04.260
to.

25:05.380 --> 25:06.180
You know what it's

25:06.180 --> 25:07.300
worse for me is I get

25:07.300 --> 25:09.080
these Texans, and that's

25:09.080 --> 25:09.720
bad enough for me.

25:10.040 --> 25:10.700
I mean, Texans have

25:10.700 --> 25:11.160
their own little

25:11.160 --> 25:11.800
language, I guess.

25:11.960 --> 25:12.580
You know, hello?

25:12.940 --> 25:13.180
Hello?

25:13.540 --> 25:13.760
Hello?

25:13.840 --> 25:14.000
Hello?

25:15.000 --> 25:15.920
Well, no, I was

25:15.920 --> 25:16.340
watching.

25:16.480 --> 25:17.280
I'm looking for a

25:17.280 --> 25:17.640
secure.

25:17.880 --> 25:18.700
It's almost like I

25:18.700 --> 25:19.340
can't even do it.

25:19.340 --> 25:21.780
Well, I was watching

25:21.780 --> 25:24.360
this little video from

25:24.360 --> 25:26.720
the SVC-AT&T merger, and

25:26.720 --> 25:27.500
there was some guy

25:27.500 --> 25:28.300
talking, and it turns

25:28.300 --> 25:29.280
out it's Ed Whitaker

25:29.280 --> 25:30.200
who's the chairman of

25:30.200 --> 25:30.860
the company.

25:31.520 --> 25:32.840
And I'm like, that's

25:32.840 --> 25:33.160
him?

25:33.300 --> 25:34.480
Because his voice, it

25:34.480 --> 25:36.120
starts off, from the

25:36.120 --> 25:37.340
moment human speech

25:37.340 --> 25:38.640
first traveled across a

25:38.640 --> 25:40.260
wire in 1876.

25:40.660 --> 25:42.180
I'm like, my God,

25:42.380 --> 25:42.960
what a hell of a

25:42.960 --> 25:43.220
draw.

25:43.560 --> 25:44.940
No wonder he doesn't

25:44.940 --> 25:45.560
do any of the

25:45.560 --> 25:47.520
spokesperson stuff for

25:47.520 --> 25:47.740
the company.

25:47.740 --> 25:48.400
You know what I get,

25:48.540 --> 25:48.660
though?

25:48.920 --> 25:49.160
What?

25:49.180 --> 25:49.660
It's funny.

25:50.260 --> 25:51.080
I still get these

25:51.080 --> 25:51.380
today.

25:51.940 --> 25:53.200
Last August, or maybe

25:53.200 --> 25:54.200
September of last

25:54.200 --> 25:55.800
year, I sent out an

25:55.800 --> 25:56.600
advisory about

25:56.600 --> 25:58.380
callwave.com, which

25:58.380 --> 26:03.240
is like, if you have

26:03.240 --> 26:04.900
a modem still, it

26:04.900 --> 26:05.900
tells you someone's

26:05.900 --> 26:06.580
trying to call you

26:06.580 --> 26:06.880
in.

26:07.940 --> 26:08.720
And so I did this

26:08.720 --> 26:09.640
exploit where basically

26:09.640 --> 26:10.380
you could terminate

26:10.380 --> 26:12.220
any caller, or not

26:12.220 --> 26:12.840
terminate any caller,

26:12.960 --> 26:13.620
terminate any

26:13.620 --> 26:14.580
subscriber to their

26:14.580 --> 26:14.960
system.

26:15.240 --> 26:15.820
You could actually

26:15.820 --> 26:16.980
shut their accounts

26:16.980 --> 26:17.220
off.

26:17.220 --> 26:18.920
If you knew you

26:18.920 --> 26:19.520
called up a call

26:19.520 --> 26:20.100
wave person, you

26:20.100 --> 26:20.900
could actually do

26:20.900 --> 26:21.540
some real evil.

26:22.220 --> 26:22.980
But the whole point

26:22.980 --> 26:24.160
is that I put an

26:24.160 --> 26:24.600
advisory.

26:24.840 --> 26:25.460
And so somehow in

26:25.460 --> 26:26.300
Google, people will

26:26.300 --> 26:27.360
sort secure signs of

26:27.360 --> 26:28.120
callwave, and they're

26:28.120 --> 26:29.160
trying to call callwave.

26:29.480 --> 26:30.100
I get these people

26:30.100 --> 26:31.100
from Kentucky, and

26:31.100 --> 26:32.280
just totally southern,

26:32.680 --> 26:33.540
older people.

26:34.920 --> 26:35.620
And it's like,

26:35.680 --> 26:36.460
hello, is this

26:36.460 --> 26:37.560
callwave?

26:38.540 --> 26:39.720
No, let me get the

26:39.720 --> 26:40.260
number for you.

26:40.280 --> 26:41.300
There's no number on

26:41.300 --> 26:41.820
their site.

26:41.900 --> 26:42.560
I know they're that

26:42.560 --> 26:43.600
type of company, man.

26:43.600 --> 26:44.320
Let me get it for

26:44.320 --> 26:44.500
you.

26:44.500 --> 26:47.360
So it's just funny

26:47.360 --> 26:48.040
because it's like

26:48.040 --> 26:49.220
totally different.

26:49.420 --> 26:50.180
And so we'll try to

26:50.180 --> 26:51.180
translate that type of

26:51.180 --> 26:51.840
talk as well.

26:54.040 --> 26:54.880
Maybe I'm dissing

26:54.880 --> 26:55.120
everybody.

26:55.240 --> 26:55.740
I don't mean to be.

26:55.800 --> 26:56.320
I'm just jessing

26:56.320 --> 26:56.500
that.

26:57.740 --> 26:59.100
So we appreciate all

26:59.100 --> 26:59.840
Americans of all

26:59.840 --> 27:00.600
sorts.

27:01.920 --> 27:02.440
All right.

27:02.640 --> 27:04.120
So we're going to

27:04.120 --> 27:04.680
put our foot in our

27:04.680 --> 27:05.580
mouth and go to a new

27:05.580 --> 27:05.880
subject.

27:06.580 --> 27:06.900
Okay.

27:07.900 --> 27:08.740
Let's see.

27:08.860 --> 27:09.040
We do.

27:09.200 --> 27:09.320
Okay.

27:10.680 --> 27:11.620
We have a call on

27:11.620 --> 27:12.420
hold, but I think we're

27:12.420 --> 27:13.440
going to get into the

27:13.440 --> 27:14.100
meat of the question.

27:14.860 --> 27:15.740
So let's do this.

27:16.060 --> 27:17.140
Let's start off with

27:17.140 --> 27:18.840
tell us about fishing.

27:18.980 --> 27:19.620
Introduce fishing.

27:19.800 --> 27:20.240
What is fishing?

27:20.420 --> 27:21.480
For all that don't

27:21.480 --> 27:22.100
know, which I would be

27:22.100 --> 27:23.100
really surprised if you

27:23.100 --> 27:24.500
don't on this thing, but

27:24.500 --> 27:25.180
there is a chance.

27:25.260 --> 27:26.200
So we'll just do that

27:26.200 --> 27:28.820
you don't know thing.

27:29.520 --> 27:30.360
And if you don't know,

27:30.400 --> 27:31.100
I'm glad that you're

27:31.100 --> 27:32.100
learning today because

27:32.100 --> 27:33.000
the people that get

27:33.000 --> 27:33.920
gypped don't know.

27:33.920 --> 27:35.860
So basically, fishing

27:35.860 --> 27:37.780
is, I'm going to use

27:37.780 --> 27:38.760
a very broad perspective

27:38.760 --> 27:39.360
of it, but it is

27:39.360 --> 27:40.120
basically social

27:40.120 --> 27:41.560
engineering in the

27:41.560 --> 27:42.940
form of email and

27:42.940 --> 27:44.060
messaging, mainly in

27:44.060 --> 27:45.960
email today, where it

27:45.960 --> 27:47.260
basically tries to trick

27:47.260 --> 27:49.880
people into signing up

27:49.880 --> 27:52.220
for the bank account

27:52.220 --> 27:53.620
that really isn't the

27:53.620 --> 27:54.000
bank.

27:54.700 --> 27:55.300
So what that would

27:55.300 --> 27:56.020
mean is you would get

27:56.020 --> 27:56.960
an email that says,

27:57.060 --> 27:58.300
Dear Citibank user,

27:59.740 --> 28:00.640
there's a problem with

28:00.640 --> 28:01.300
your account.

28:01.300 --> 28:04.620
You need to fill this

28:04.620 --> 28:06.460
information out and

28:06.460 --> 28:07.200
update your account

28:07.200 --> 28:08.240
information immediately.

28:09.160 --> 28:10.800
Click here to sign in

28:10.800 --> 28:12.280
and fill out the

28:12.280 --> 28:12.720
information.

28:13.020 --> 28:13.820
And so what it is, is

28:13.820 --> 28:14.600
when you click on that

28:14.600 --> 28:15.500
link, it looks like it's

28:15.500 --> 28:16.260
a Citibank in your

28:16.260 --> 28:17.040
email, but underneath

28:17.040 --> 28:18.440
that is what they call

28:18.440 --> 28:19.540
an HREF tag, which

28:19.540 --> 28:20.460
basically means where it

28:20.460 --> 28:21.940
really goes to is some

28:21.940 --> 28:24.160
other sites, usually off

28:24.160 --> 28:25.100
of Citibank, unless

28:25.100 --> 28:26.080
Citibank's got a problem

28:26.080 --> 28:27.180
with their website, but

28:27.180 --> 28:28.180
usually off of Citibank,

28:28.240 --> 28:28.880
it'll be some other

28:28.880 --> 28:30.340
site somewhere in the

28:30.340 --> 28:31.320
United States and an

28:31.320 --> 28:32.320
ISP sitting somewhere

28:32.320 --> 28:33.160
that basically looks

28:33.160 --> 28:34.600
like Citibank, but it

28:34.600 --> 28:35.500
really isn't Citibank.

28:35.600 --> 28:36.200
And a lot of people

28:36.200 --> 28:36.860
who are not in the

28:36.860 --> 28:37.780
know will fall for it

28:37.780 --> 28:39.160
and log into it, and

28:39.160 --> 28:39.820
they'll go, thank you

28:39.820 --> 28:40.820
for updating your

28:40.820 --> 28:41.680
security settings, or

28:41.680 --> 28:42.440
it'll pass you back to

28:42.440 --> 28:43.140
the bank, or things

28:43.140 --> 28:43.520
like that.

28:43.620 --> 28:44.140
And so what will

28:44.140 --> 28:45.480
happen is, little

28:45.480 --> 28:46.200
they know, they've

28:46.200 --> 28:46.680
gotten all their

28:46.680 --> 28:47.520
credentials stolen.

28:48.740 --> 28:49.980
And it's funny because

28:49.980 --> 28:50.960
phishing goes back to

28:50.960 --> 28:51.780
the old school days.

28:51.940 --> 28:52.960
So it's like as more

28:52.960 --> 28:54.760
advanced we get, the

28:54.760 --> 28:55.920
attacks go back to the

28:55.920 --> 28:56.380
fundamentals.

28:57.160 --> 28:58.440
So that's kind of

28:58.440 --> 28:59.200
what phishing is in the

28:59.200 --> 29:00.560
long run, and most

29:00.560 --> 29:01.460
people will see an

29:01.460 --> 29:02.980
eBay or an Amazon or a

29:02.980 --> 29:04.580
Citibank or a PayPal

29:04.580 --> 29:05.640
email in their thing

29:05.640 --> 29:06.460
that's definitely, you

29:06.460 --> 29:07.440
know, I don't have an

29:07.440 --> 29:09.520
eBay account, or I

29:09.520 --> 29:10.360
definitely don't have a

29:10.360 --> 29:11.540
LaSalle Bank or a

29:11.540 --> 29:13.460
South Trust Bank

29:13.460 --> 29:14.600
account, or some

29:14.600 --> 29:15.440
credit union out of

29:15.440 --> 29:15.560
there.

29:16.680 --> 29:17.520
And if you guys have

29:17.520 --> 29:18.240
seen that, then you

29:18.240 --> 29:19.020
definitely have seen a

29:19.020 --> 29:19.600
phishing email.

29:20.560 --> 29:23.520
And so what I do from

29:23.520 --> 29:24.400
that perspective is I

29:24.400 --> 29:25.680
actually categorize those

29:25.680 --> 29:26.460
phishing emails and

29:26.460 --> 29:27.320
categorize them in

29:27.320 --> 29:28.420
groups and, you know,

29:28.420 --> 29:29.400
start like saying, hey,

29:29.420 --> 29:30.100
this is this phishing

29:30.100 --> 29:30.780
group, this is this

29:30.780 --> 29:31.220
phishing group.

29:31.360 --> 29:32.000
And, you know, they

29:32.000 --> 29:32.500
all have different

29:32.500 --> 29:33.420
distinct patterns because

29:33.420 --> 29:34.980
they're serial behavior.

29:36.720 --> 29:37.820
Yeah, like I noticed

29:37.820 --> 29:40.180
the introductory part of

29:40.180 --> 29:41.560
your book, there's an

29:41.560 --> 29:42.480
example where you start

29:42.480 --> 29:43.940
filtering these spam

29:43.940 --> 29:45.120
emails, these phishing

29:45.120 --> 29:45.740
emails that you've

29:45.740 --> 29:47.560
received, and you start

29:47.560 --> 29:48.720
narrowing it down by

29:48.720 --> 29:51.660
like, you narrow it

29:51.660 --> 29:53.360
down, and like, so

29:53.360 --> 29:54.480
let's see, what was the

29:54.480 --> 29:54.780
example?

29:54.860 --> 29:55.780
Let me pull it up here.

29:55.780 --> 29:57.540
Capital Letter Hash

29:57.540 --> 29:58.220
Busters on the

29:58.220 --> 29:58.700
subject line.

29:58.720 --> 29:59.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

29:59.200 --> 29:59.480
that's right.

29:59.540 --> 30:00.400
So it's like, first you

30:00.400 --> 30:02.640
narrow it down to all the

30:02.640 --> 30:03.500
spam, yeah, with Capital

30:03.500 --> 30:04.260
Letter Hash Busters on

30:04.260 --> 30:05.200
the subject line, and

30:05.200 --> 30:07.920
then you narrow it down to

30:07.920 --> 30:09.020
all the spam messages with

30:09.020 --> 30:09.720
that Capital Letter

30:09.720 --> 30:11.200
Subject Hash Buster, and

30:11.200 --> 30:11.860
then it's time zone of

30:11.860 --> 30:12.960
negative 1,700, which

30:12.960 --> 30:13.720
doesn't even exist.

30:14.420 --> 30:14.780
Right.

30:15.000 --> 30:16.780
And then you can see

30:16.780 --> 30:17.640
this pattern that they

30:17.640 --> 30:18.780
all seem to come from

30:18.780 --> 30:20.100
like someone drumming

30:20.100 --> 30:20.860
their fingers on the

30:20.860 --> 30:21.840
keyboard and typing some

30:21.840 --> 30:23.160
numbers at Yahoo.com.

30:23.920 --> 30:24.240
Yep.

30:24.240 --> 30:26.300
And so basically, from

30:26.300 --> 30:27.120
that drumming, you can

30:27.120 --> 30:28.240
see inside to out, out

30:28.240 --> 30:28.620
to in.

30:28.860 --> 30:29.900
Also, the certain type of

30:29.900 --> 30:30.420
software that we

30:30.420 --> 30:31.740
identified actually had it

30:31.740 --> 30:32.560
where you have to press

30:32.560 --> 30:34.940
the mouse to the submit

30:34.940 --> 30:36.380
key or the send mail key

30:36.380 --> 30:37.060
rather than just hitting

30:37.060 --> 30:38.540
enter, so, and it was on

30:38.540 --> 30:39.440
the right side, and you

30:39.440 --> 30:40.300
can see, like, if someone

30:40.300 --> 30:42.080
types in ASDF or something

30:42.080 --> 30:42.740
like, you know, totally

30:42.740 --> 30:43.620
like that, you can tell

30:43.620 --> 30:44.500
where their hand is on

30:44.500 --> 30:45.000
the mouse.

30:45.440 --> 30:46.340
So there's certain, you

30:46.340 --> 30:47.980
know, positions, and we

30:47.980 --> 30:49.180
wrote some software a while

30:49.180 --> 30:50.300
back that does, like, you

30:50.300 --> 30:52.420
know, metrics based off of,

30:52.420 --> 30:53.420
like, outside to in, and

30:53.420 --> 30:55.040
so it does 75% chance this

30:55.040 --> 30:56.000
person is left-handed or

30:56.000 --> 30:56.640
right, you know, those

30:56.640 --> 30:57.100
kind of things.

30:57.820 --> 30:58.840
So this is what we call

30:58.840 --> 30:59.820
keyboard profiling.

31:00.500 --> 31:01.260
And so we'll see it, like,

31:01.280 --> 31:02.040
we'll see it on IRC

31:02.040 --> 31:02.620
channels where someone

31:02.620 --> 31:03.760
will get upset, too, and

31:03.760 --> 31:04.760
they'll just, like, you

31:04.760 --> 31:05.680
know, dish their hand off

31:05.680 --> 31:06.260
the keyboard, and we'll

31:06.260 --> 31:07.000
measure the sample.

31:07.340 --> 31:08.120
Of course, the bigger the

31:08.120 --> 31:09.520
sample, the better chances

31:09.520 --> 31:10.940
we have, you know.

31:10.980 --> 31:11.980
But, yeah, that was it.

31:12.360 --> 31:13.280
That's, you know, what we

31:13.280 --> 31:14.320
do is basically take

31:14.320 --> 31:15.820
traits, start with the bulk

31:15.820 --> 31:17.160
mailing traits, and then

31:17.160 --> 31:17.980
move them to, also, with

31:17.980 --> 31:18.680
fishing, you can start

31:18.680 --> 31:19.520
looking at the website

31:19.520 --> 31:21.160
traits, certain kind of

31:21.160 --> 31:22.240
code, do they mirror it,

31:22.260 --> 31:23.060
do they refer all the

31:23.060 --> 31:23.880
images, or do they

31:23.880 --> 31:24.680
actually mirror all the

31:24.680 --> 31:25.680
images, or do they do a

31:25.680 --> 31:26.300
mixture of both?

31:26.540 --> 31:27.440
Do they have a dot-dot

31:27.440 --> 31:28.560
flash, you ever see that,

31:28.600 --> 31:29.520
or you see a dot-dot-dot

31:29.520 --> 31:31.180
flash in a phishing email

31:31.180 --> 31:31.940
when you actually go to

31:31.940 --> 31:33.260
the site, so that you can

31:33.260 --> 31:33.980
tell that they probably

31:33.980 --> 31:34.680
hacked in and they're

31:34.680 --> 31:36.060
hiding the actual site.

31:37.400 --> 31:38.200
We also group it and

31:38.200 --> 31:39.260
categorize the type of

31:39.260 --> 31:40.880
attack points, right?

31:41.220 --> 31:42.040
So if you're scanning

31:42.040 --> 31:43.160
a machine, there's, like,

31:43.180 --> 31:44.000
a certain group out there

31:44.000 --> 31:44.900
that'll look for all

31:44.900 --> 31:46.140
cPanel, which is the

31:46.140 --> 31:47.480
ISP in a box, you know,

31:47.520 --> 31:48.760
which is basically a, you

31:48.760 --> 31:49.640
know, cPanel basically

31:49.640 --> 31:50.620
sets it up so you don't

31:50.620 --> 31:51.220
have to think about

31:51.220 --> 31:52.220
your ISP, it's a

31:52.220 --> 31:53.160
management engine for

31:53.160 --> 31:54.640
your customers, and you

31:54.640 --> 31:55.520
just send them a login

31:55.520 --> 31:56.240
and they can start

31:56.240 --> 31:57.740
managing their accounts.

31:58.440 --> 31:59.120
And so, like, we'll see

31:59.120 --> 31:59.600
a lot of those

31:59.600 --> 32:00.460
vulnerabilities and we'll

32:00.460 --> 32:01.300
categorize that.

32:01.440 --> 32:01.960
So we, you know,

32:02.240 --> 32:03.020
basically we'll go,

32:03.140 --> 32:03.820
okay, this group has

32:03.820 --> 32:04.660
sent this type of email,

32:04.800 --> 32:05.340
okay, we already know

32:05.340 --> 32:06.100
what group that is, are

32:06.100 --> 32:06.840
they following the same

32:06.840 --> 32:07.200
traits?

32:07.320 --> 32:08.260
Oh, yes, they are, so

32:08.260 --> 32:09.060
let's put them in phishing

32:09.060 --> 32:09.960
group number two or

32:09.960 --> 32:10.860
phishing group number 20,

32:10.940 --> 32:11.660
which is a city image

32:11.660 --> 32:11.840
group.

32:12.240 --> 32:13.220
One you've probably seen

32:13.220 --> 32:14.400
very often is the city

32:14.400 --> 32:15.500
group type emails, and

32:15.500 --> 32:16.140
what it is, it's an

32:16.140 --> 32:17.640
entire image of the

32:17.640 --> 32:19.460
city group logo and all

32:19.460 --> 32:20.740
the wording inside an

32:20.740 --> 32:22.080
actual image, and the

32:22.080 --> 32:23.180
click is actually the

32:23.180 --> 32:24.620
image's hreft.

32:25.040 --> 32:25.520
Have you ever seen

32:25.520 --> 32:25.880
that before?

32:27.260 --> 32:27.780
I don't know if you

32:27.780 --> 32:28.460
even look at phishing.

32:28.960 --> 32:29.960
Yeah, I've looked at

32:29.960 --> 32:30.700
that, and I think I've

32:30.700 --> 32:31.180
seen it.

32:31.900 --> 32:32.360
Right, and that would

32:32.360 --> 32:33.040
be phishing group number

32:33.040 --> 32:34.560
20, what we call a city

32:34.560 --> 32:34.860
image.

32:35.180 --> 32:35.800
If you look in their

32:35.800 --> 32:36.540
headers, they'll have an

32:36.540 --> 32:38.380
FCC colon, which is a

32:38.380 --> 32:39.460
file card and copy as

32:39.460 --> 32:40.080
well, so their bulk

32:40.080 --> 32:40.780
mailing tool has the

32:40.780 --> 32:41.240
specifics.

32:41.760 --> 32:42.180
There's all these

32:42.180 --> 32:42.900
little things, so we

32:42.900 --> 32:44.020
basically can categorize

32:44.020 --> 32:45.080
them, and we've also

32:45.080 --> 32:46.320
traced back them to being

32:46.320 --> 32:47.620
involved in spam for the

32:47.620 --> 32:48.920
last two plus years, or

32:48.920 --> 32:50.120
that, because a lot

32:50.120 --> 32:50.780
of spammers went

32:50.780 --> 32:51.740
phishing, so they came

32:51.740 --> 32:52.740
from spamming to going

32:52.740 --> 32:54.980
to phish, because of

32:54.980 --> 32:56.100
course, in the end run,

32:56.180 --> 32:56.960
what's the goal here?

32:57.720 --> 32:59.120
Yeah, the end run is to

32:59.120 --> 33:01.600
get your information.

33:02.260 --> 33:03.380
Yeah, well, the end run

33:03.380 --> 33:03.980
is not to get your

33:03.980 --> 33:04.320
information.

33:04.620 --> 33:05.620
What does information

33:05.620 --> 33:06.040
get you?

33:06.360 --> 33:06.680
Money.

33:07.080 --> 33:07.240
Yeah.

33:07.380 --> 33:07.520
Yeah.

33:07.980 --> 33:09.640
So, I mean, yes, the

33:09.640 --> 33:10.840
attack point, the vector

33:10.840 --> 33:12.320
that you're looking at, the

33:12.320 --> 33:14.080
threat is that you've got

33:14.080 --> 33:14.520
to protect your

33:14.520 --> 33:15.960
information, but spamming

33:15.960 --> 33:17.440
even was about money, and

33:17.440 --> 33:18.200
that's already a shady

33:18.200 --> 33:19.300
business, and they had

33:19.300 --> 33:20.240
hackers that they hired

33:20.240 --> 33:21.440
to basically steal

33:21.440 --> 33:23.520
mailing lists or harvest

33:23.520 --> 33:24.620
them, and so black hat

33:24.620 --> 33:25.320
techniques were always

33:25.320 --> 33:25.920
used there, too.

33:26.140 --> 33:26.560
Yeah, I remember

33:26.560 --> 33:27.900
actually, I worked at a

33:27.900 --> 33:28.880
company one time, and

33:28.880 --> 33:30.620
they got this amazing

33:30.620 --> 33:32.000
idea up their ass to

33:32.000 --> 33:34.160
spam people to get more

33:34.160 --> 33:34.580
customers.

33:34.740 --> 33:35.440
They said, this is a bad

33:35.440 --> 33:36.420
idea, this is a dumb

33:36.420 --> 33:37.480
idea, don't do it, don't

33:37.480 --> 33:38.980
do it, but they

33:38.980 --> 33:40.860
eventually pressed ahead

33:40.860 --> 33:41.960
with it anyway, and I

33:41.960 --> 33:42.920
was kind of reluctantly

33:42.920 --> 33:44.120
ended up writing screen

33:44.120 --> 33:46.700
scrapers to go filter

33:46.700 --> 33:47.800
through web pages and

33:47.800 --> 33:48.980
grab email addresses

33:48.980 --> 33:49.800
from mailing lists and

33:49.800 --> 33:49.940
whatnot.

33:50.160 --> 33:51.120
Actually, chapter three,

33:51.520 --> 33:53.320
I think it's chapter three,

33:54.300 --> 33:55.560
in there I even show how

33:55.560 --> 33:57.100
people put in those no

33:57.100 --> 33:59.800
spam things, and I do a

33:59.800 --> 34:01.940
regex command line piped

34:01.940 --> 34:03.600
into wget, and basically,

34:03.960 --> 34:04.800
or something, I can't

34:04.800 --> 34:05.780
remember what I did there,

34:06.240 --> 34:07.860
I think it was, yeah, I

34:07.860 --> 34:10.320
was piping into wget, and

34:10.320 --> 34:11.100
then I did a regex

34:11.100 --> 34:11.900
command, and I basically

34:11.900 --> 34:13.140
sorted it all out, and

34:13.140 --> 34:13.900
then basically what would

34:13.900 --> 34:14.800
happen is you'd have an

34:14.800 --> 34:16.560
emailing list, right, just

34:16.560 --> 34:17.240
off of using your

34:17.240 --> 34:17.880
command line tools.

34:17.960 --> 34:18.640
Now, imagine all the

34:18.640 --> 34:19.420
tools out there that

34:19.420 --> 34:20.620
are, you know, heavily

34:20.620 --> 34:22.220
thought out, you know,

34:22.460 --> 34:23.040
there's a lot of

34:23.040 --> 34:24.020
harvesting tools out

34:24.020 --> 34:24.200
there.

34:24.280 --> 34:24.920
Oh, yeah, here it is,

34:24.960 --> 34:25.420
wget.

34:25.880 --> 34:26.520
Oh, yeah, definitely.

34:26.720 --> 34:27.720
Chapter three, page

34:27.720 --> 34:28.980
117, it's crazy.

34:29.660 --> 34:30.460
Yeah, in fact.

34:30.460 --> 34:31.640
Basically, I just took

34:31.640 --> 34:33.400
the seclist.org, you

34:33.400 --> 34:34.180
know, the security

34:34.180 --> 34:34.940
lists out there that,

34:35.080 --> 34:35.580
like, you know, bug

34:35.580 --> 34:36.900
track and all that, and

34:36.900 --> 34:38.100
it even bypasses the no

34:38.100 --> 34:39.680
spam, you know, little

34:39.680 --> 34:40.500
stuff that they put in

34:40.500 --> 34:41.040
there and some of that

34:41.040 --> 34:41.900
stuff, and then

34:41.900 --> 34:43.080
basically just make a

34:43.080 --> 34:44.440
sorted mailing list,

34:44.440 --> 34:45.560
and I think we

34:45.560 --> 34:46.340
gained, like, I

34:46.340 --> 34:46.920
don't know how many,

34:47.500 --> 34:48.940
we got 174 names just

34:48.940 --> 34:50.120
on one initial pass.

34:50.380 --> 34:50.660
Wow.

34:50.780 --> 34:51.380
That were unique.

34:51.700 --> 34:52.860
So, you know, and

34:52.860 --> 34:53.400
they're looking for,

34:53.520 --> 34:55.020
obviously, between 100,000

34:55.020 --> 34:56.460
and a million per mailing

34:56.460 --> 34:56.720
list.

34:56.840 --> 34:57.720
Now, the bigger groups

34:57.720 --> 34:59.220
use less, smaller mailing

34:59.220 --> 35:00.400
lists per shot.

35:00.640 --> 35:00.820
Right.

35:00.820 --> 35:01.760
They regionalize them as

35:01.760 --> 35:01.940
well.

35:02.360 --> 35:03.920
Now, speaking of the

35:03.920 --> 35:05.340
whole money thing, we

35:05.340 --> 35:06.380
have Ionix on the

35:06.380 --> 35:06.620
line.

35:07.720 --> 35:08.380
Who is it?

35:08.460 --> 35:08.600
Sorry?

35:08.920 --> 35:09.320
Ionix.

35:09.920 --> 35:10.280
Ionix.

35:10.520 --> 35:11.260
You there, Ionix?

35:11.260 --> 35:13.920
Yes, I'm here.

35:14.160 --> 35:14.660
All right, cool.

35:14.740 --> 35:15.560
You had a question about

35:15.560 --> 35:16.460
money, didn't you?

35:17.140 --> 35:18.320
I did have a couple of

35:18.320 --> 35:18.700
questions.

35:18.840 --> 35:20.080
The first one was, how

35:20.080 --> 35:21.320
lucrative is fishing?

35:22.240 --> 35:23.240
I'm assuming it has to be

35:23.240 --> 35:24.380
at least fairly lucrative,

35:24.500 --> 35:24.880
but I would say.

35:24.880 --> 35:25.940
Oh, it's very, it's

35:25.940 --> 35:26.100
very.

35:26.420 --> 35:27.400
And here's what we're

35:27.400 --> 35:27.940
going to tell you the

35:27.940 --> 35:28.340
truth about.

35:28.800 --> 35:29.660
Okay, the groups that

35:29.660 --> 35:30.420
are involved in fishing,

35:30.560 --> 35:31.320
let's talk about the

35:31.320 --> 35:32.420
really organized ones,

35:32.500 --> 35:33.820
like professionals, and

35:33.820 --> 35:35.040
let's not talk about the

35:35.040 --> 35:36.240
ones that are disorganized

35:36.240 --> 35:37.900
in Romania and kind of,

35:37.960 --> 35:39.200
you know, make a daytime job

35:39.200 --> 35:39.860
of it or whatever.

35:39.860 --> 35:41.120
Those guys probably make

35:41.120 --> 35:42.860
$10,000 to $15,000 a month.

35:43.200 --> 35:44.500
Now, the lucrative, you

35:44.500 --> 35:46.000
know, that's okay, but in

35:46.000 --> 35:47.360
Russia, the organized

35:47.360 --> 35:48.640
groups, the larger groups

35:48.640 --> 35:49.480
that are filled with like

35:49.480 --> 35:50.640
13 plus, you know,

35:50.660 --> 35:51.860
individuals, just in

35:51.860 --> 35:52.080
fishing.

35:52.500 --> 35:53.480
Now, we're talking just

35:53.480 --> 35:54.860
the scams, and this

35:54.860 --> 35:56.700
includes malware, too, and

35:56.700 --> 35:57.620
money moving and all the

35:57.620 --> 35:58.360
different phases of it.

35:58.760 --> 36:00.100
They're averaging out an

36:00.100 --> 36:01.900
individual person in that

36:01.900 --> 36:03.660
group making $300,000 a

36:03.660 --> 36:03.880
month.

36:04.900 --> 36:05.380
Wow.

36:05.420 --> 36:06.140
So that's an individual

36:06.140 --> 36:06.700
person.

36:06.980 --> 36:07.540
So they're making

36:07.540 --> 36:08.260
millions a month.

36:08.260 --> 36:09.560
Now, the worst part

36:09.560 --> 36:10.580
about this is that these

36:10.580 --> 36:11.760
guys are not just into

36:11.760 --> 36:12.460
fishing, though.

36:13.000 --> 36:14.400
The entire racketeering of

36:14.400 --> 36:15.180
them, they're involved in

36:15.180 --> 36:15.760
child porn.

36:16.040 --> 36:17.520
They're involved in Russian

36:17.520 --> 36:18.240
bride sales.

36:18.380 --> 36:19.640
They're involved in lead

36:19.640 --> 36:21.780
stealing, hacking, of

36:21.780 --> 36:22.500
course, for money.

36:22.660 --> 36:23.480
They're involved in like

36:23.480 --> 36:25.860
spam, of course, malware,

36:26.020 --> 36:26.780
and malicious software.

36:27.440 --> 36:28.760
Like, for instance, I was

36:28.760 --> 36:29.700
one of the co-authors of

36:29.700 --> 36:30.440
Who Wrote So Big?

36:31.160 --> 36:32.640
And if you go on Google, and

36:32.640 --> 36:33.640
we wrote it anonymously at

36:33.640 --> 36:34.440
the time, but I'm not too

36:34.440 --> 36:35.060
worried about them now.

36:35.720 --> 36:36.740
But that's Kevin, who

36:36.740 --> 36:37.300
wrote So Big?

36:37.380 --> 36:38.160
And there's a whole paper.

36:38.580 --> 36:39.680
And we identified the

36:39.680 --> 36:42.080
author of So Big by name.

36:43.120 --> 36:44.040
And that guy made a little

36:44.040 --> 36:45.120
good living until we wrote

36:45.120 --> 36:45.700
that paper.

36:46.800 --> 36:48.500
So, you know, but the

36:48.500 --> 36:49.940
spamming industry alone is a

36:49.940 --> 36:50.680
multi-million dollar

36:50.680 --> 36:51.120
industry.

36:51.880 --> 36:52.020
Okay?

36:52.740 --> 36:53.620
The selling of

36:53.620 --> 36:55.360
information, I mean, look at

36:55.360 --> 36:55.820
Napster.

36:55.900 --> 36:56.880
Why did Napster get bought

36:56.880 --> 36:57.100
up?

36:57.140 --> 36:57.600
Because of their

36:57.600 --> 36:58.840
demographics, not because of

36:58.840 --> 36:59.360
their activity.

36:59.360 --> 37:00.560
They had how many

37:00.560 --> 37:00.980
users?

37:01.720 --> 37:01.800
Yeah.

37:01.800 --> 37:03.060
So, it's the sale of

37:03.060 --> 37:03.360
information.

37:03.480 --> 37:04.880
They have actually kiosks in

37:04.880 --> 37:06.340
Russia that they sell.

37:06.420 --> 37:07.240
Here's a hard drive with all

37:07.240 --> 37:08.020
these people's information.

37:09.060 --> 37:09.240
You know?

37:09.340 --> 37:09.620
Wow.

37:09.720 --> 37:11.400
And so, it's big money.

37:11.640 --> 37:12.820
I mean, look at just lead

37:12.820 --> 37:13.540
companies alone.

37:14.100 --> 37:15.380
They make, you know, average

37:15.380 --> 37:16.660
of, you know, good lead

37:16.660 --> 37:17.680
companies can make an average

37:17.680 --> 37:18.840
of a few million a month

37:18.840 --> 37:20.040
just selling leads to loan

37:20.040 --> 37:20.880
officers fairly.

37:21.400 --> 37:22.240
So, what if you're doing it

37:22.240 --> 37:22.840
illegitimately?

37:23.380 --> 37:24.140
You know, and you're

37:24.140 --> 37:25.560
stealing money, plus you're

37:25.560 --> 37:26.580
selling the information back

37:26.580 --> 37:27.980
to spammers or possibly lead

37:27.980 --> 37:28.400
companies.

37:28.400 --> 37:29.900
So, you have multiple

37:29.900 --> 37:31.120
venues to sell that

37:31.120 --> 37:32.260
information and resell that

37:32.260 --> 37:33.320
information and resell that

37:33.320 --> 37:33.760
information.

37:34.360 --> 37:35.240
Imagine how much information

37:35.240 --> 37:35.820
they have on you.

37:35.940 --> 37:37.160
Plus, these guys do credit

37:37.160 --> 37:37.420
checks.

37:37.500 --> 37:38.260
They know how much money

37:38.260 --> 37:38.780
you have.

37:39.100 --> 37:40.080
So, they know if you own a

37:40.080 --> 37:40.380
house.

37:40.660 --> 37:41.920
They know, you know, what

37:41.920 --> 37:42.680
you're paying on your house.

37:42.880 --> 37:43.660
And they know if you have

37:43.660 --> 37:44.840
some TD Waterhouse account

37:44.840 --> 37:46.600
somewhere and say, oh, this

37:46.600 --> 37:47.360
guy's got bigger money.

37:47.460 --> 37:48.620
Let's go after him personally

37:48.620 --> 37:49.480
and, like, do a bigger

37:49.480 --> 37:49.820
scam.

37:50.380 --> 37:50.620
You know?

37:50.680 --> 37:51.820
That's why I never get

37:51.820 --> 37:52.440
those emails.

37:55.080 --> 37:56.180
That's why I never get

37:56.180 --> 37:56.760
those emails.

37:56.760 --> 37:58.160
Protect yourself from

37:58.160 --> 37:59.040
saying, get broke.

38:00.480 --> 38:00.900
Yeah, yeah.

38:00.980 --> 38:02.140
My protection is the fact

38:02.140 --> 38:03.300
that I'm so far in debt

38:03.300 --> 38:04.580
that no...

38:04.580 --> 38:05.200
Yeah, yeah.

38:05.420 --> 38:06.420
You know, that's a good

38:06.420 --> 38:07.280
protection, honestly.

38:07.480 --> 38:07.640
You know?

38:07.900 --> 38:08.660
They're probably not going

38:08.660 --> 38:09.640
to steal a penny off of you.

38:09.640 --> 38:11.500
You know, but, yeah, there's a

38:11.500 --> 38:12.540
lot of money to be made.

38:12.780 --> 38:13.840
And the organized crimes have

38:13.840 --> 38:14.360
it on tap.

38:15.000 --> 38:16.120
And, you know, even the

38:16.120 --> 38:16.880
smaller players, they're

38:16.880 --> 38:18.420
making about, you know, some

38:18.420 --> 38:19.140
of them are claiming about

38:19.140 --> 38:20.280
$100,000 a month.

38:20.920 --> 38:21.180
You know?

38:21.300 --> 38:22.400
So, I mean, they're claiming,

38:22.520 --> 38:22.600
though.

38:22.600 --> 38:23.540
This is out of their mouth.

38:23.980 --> 38:25.560
So, they could be, you know,

38:25.620 --> 38:26.940
boosting their numbers just to

38:26.940 --> 38:27.380
look cool.

38:27.940 --> 38:28.860
But I know that they're at

38:28.860 --> 38:29.680
least making...

38:29.680 --> 38:29.980
Or they could be, like,

38:29.980 --> 38:30.760
downplaying them.

38:31.180 --> 38:32.120
Yeah, the money laundering,

38:32.240 --> 38:34.000
though, per shipment, though, is

38:34.000 --> 38:35.200
average about four grand.

38:35.300 --> 38:35.940
So, if you're doing the

38:35.940 --> 38:36.800
money laundering, where you're,

38:36.880 --> 38:37.960
like, selling stolen goods,

38:38.600 --> 38:40.300
the per shipment space of that

38:40.300 --> 38:41.060
is about four grand.

38:41.140 --> 38:42.140
And that's in a week, usually.

38:42.200 --> 38:43.140
The guy will do it within a

38:43.140 --> 38:43.300
week.

38:43.400 --> 38:44.540
Maybe if they're real

38:44.540 --> 38:45.260
aggressive, they'll do it

38:45.260 --> 38:46.200
three times in a week.

38:46.600 --> 38:47.560
So, if you do it four times

38:47.560 --> 38:48.880
three, that's 12 right there.

38:49.360 --> 38:49.560
Right?

38:49.760 --> 38:50.500
So, think of that.

38:50.560 --> 38:51.300
You're at least going to be

38:51.300 --> 38:52.140
making, if you're doing

38:52.140 --> 38:53.280
shipments of four grand,

38:53.400 --> 38:54.540
three times a week, 12 grand,

38:54.840 --> 38:56.160
12 grand, 12 grand, 12 grand.

38:56.320 --> 38:56.740
What is that?

38:56.840 --> 38:57.420
10, 20, 30, 40?

38:57.600 --> 38:58.760
That's at least $50,000,

38:58.760 --> 38:59.380
$60,000.

39:00.300 --> 39:01.320
So, I mean, they have

39:01.320 --> 39:02.740
multiple people doing that.

39:02.740 --> 39:04.000
Three times as much as I do

39:04.000 --> 39:04.460
in a year.

39:05.100 --> 39:05.400
Sorry?

39:06.040 --> 39:07.200
I was just saying they make

39:07.200 --> 39:08.300
about three times as much

39:08.300 --> 39:09.740
in a month as I do in a year.

39:10.140 --> 39:10.420
Yeah.

39:10.540 --> 39:11.900
They're making a lot of money.

39:11.980 --> 39:12.520
They're moving money.

39:12.620 --> 39:13.180
And the more aggressive

39:13.180 --> 39:13.880
groups are going to be

39:13.880 --> 39:14.600
faster at it.

39:14.640 --> 39:15.560
Plus, if you're organized

39:15.560 --> 39:16.380
more careful and you don't

39:16.380 --> 39:17.200
get busted, you're going to

39:17.200 --> 39:18.220
be in business a long time.

39:18.720 --> 39:19.960
The worst part is that now

39:19.960 --> 39:21.040
we also have malware.

39:22.020 --> 39:22.900
And which, actually, even

39:22.900 --> 39:23.860
when phishing started, there

39:23.860 --> 39:24.340
was malware.

39:24.480 --> 39:25.860
2003 is technically when

39:25.860 --> 39:26.980
officially phishing started.

39:27.300 --> 39:28.280
And so, malware was actually

39:28.280 --> 39:28.680
up in.

39:28.840 --> 39:30.780
Burbu was logging all these

39:30.780 --> 39:31.600
keystrokes from people.

39:31.600 --> 39:33.020
And it was quite clandestine.

39:33.080 --> 39:33.740
No one knew about it.

39:33.760 --> 39:34.800
I actually had a copy of

39:34.800 --> 39:35.780
Burbu that was nine months

39:35.780 --> 39:37.540
old that the antivirus

39:37.540 --> 39:38.260
vendors didn't pick up.

39:38.540 --> 39:39.540
And that was pulling in

39:39.540 --> 39:41.340
gigs and gigs and gigs

39:41.340 --> 39:42.720
and gigs of people's data.

39:43.480 --> 39:44.680
We're talking like, I mean,

39:44.760 --> 39:46.200
I have the hard drives.

39:46.500 --> 39:48.660
And so, I've got at least

39:48.660 --> 39:50.120
like from one or two weeks,

39:50.180 --> 39:52.500
it was like 13 gigs, you

39:52.500 --> 39:53.480
know, off of people.

39:53.600 --> 39:54.460
And some of the data was

39:54.460 --> 39:56.280
still available, but they had

39:56.280 --> 39:57.560
scripts that they set up and

39:57.560 --> 39:58.840
would target certain banks.

39:59.060 --> 39:59.900
And, you know, basically,

40:00.120 --> 40:01.080
those were the productive

40:01.080 --> 40:01.360
banks.

40:01.360 --> 40:02.720
And so, I really believe it

40:02.720 --> 40:03.480
when they're making, you

40:03.480 --> 40:05.100
know, $300,000 per individual.

40:05.280 --> 40:06.740
I don't doubt it, you

40:06.740 --> 40:06.920
know.

40:07.480 --> 40:09.880
So, it's a pretty big game.

40:10.200 --> 40:11.400
But don't start it, you

40:11.400 --> 40:11.500
know.

40:12.340 --> 40:12.960
No, no, no.

40:13.020 --> 40:13.440
I wasn't.

40:13.860 --> 40:14.780
No, I'm just being funny.

40:15.380 --> 40:16.560
So, in fact, we all

40:16.560 --> 40:17.560
feel like we're in the

40:17.560 --> 40:18.400
wrong business, but.

40:18.840 --> 40:19.200
Yeah.

40:19.780 --> 40:20.140
Yeah.

40:20.200 --> 40:21.280
But, yeah, it's a big

40:21.280 --> 40:21.760
money game.

40:22.560 --> 40:22.880
Wow.

40:23.280 --> 40:23.880
Well, you pretty much

40:23.880 --> 40:24.020
answered the question.

40:24.020 --> 40:24.740
Supposedly, did you read

40:24.740 --> 40:25.400
that article, Rob?

40:25.400 --> 40:26.060
Did you read the article

40:26.060 --> 40:27.460
that's saying that cybercrime

40:27.460 --> 40:29.280
has surpassed drug crime

40:29.280 --> 40:30.140
now in money?

40:30.140 --> 40:30.780
Yes, I have.

40:30.780 --> 40:32.820
I thought that was

40:32.820 --> 40:33.300
interesting.

40:33.780 --> 40:33.940
Yeah.

40:34.060 --> 40:35.040
Although, I don't know

40:35.040 --> 40:36.200
what kind of drug dealers

40:36.200 --> 40:38.600
and cybercrime people are

40:38.600 --> 40:39.620
sort of submitting their

40:39.620 --> 40:40.260
tax forms.

40:40.400 --> 40:40.840
You know what I'm saying?

40:41.240 --> 40:41.840
Yeah, I know.

40:42.280 --> 40:44.180
Well, they're doing, it's

40:44.180 --> 40:45.120
interesting how they came up

40:45.120 --> 40:45.620
with their numbers.

40:45.980 --> 40:46.760
I don't really buy the

40:46.760 --> 40:47.560
numbers because they're

40:47.560 --> 40:49.020
also sliding piracy in

40:49.020 --> 40:49.240
that.

40:49.920 --> 40:50.940
And, no offense, I don't

40:50.940 --> 40:52.160
really look at piracy as a

40:52.160 --> 40:53.060
severe cybercrime.

40:53.060 --> 40:54.340
I mean, my level of

40:54.340 --> 40:55.020
Oh, they submitted it in

40:55.020 --> 40:55.900
on cybercrime.

40:56.020 --> 40:56.780
I was wondering if they

40:56.780 --> 40:57.760
were sliding in on the

40:57.760 --> 40:58.420
drug side.

40:59.500 --> 41:00.440
You know, I was

41:00.440 --> 41:01.420
going to sell the drugs

41:01.420 --> 41:02.300
and, like, watch the

41:02.300 --> 41:03.220
Matrix, you know?

41:03.420 --> 41:05.680
Yeah, cocaine, pot, and

41:05.680 --> 41:08.460
some Mariah Carey albums.

41:09.340 --> 41:09.600
Yeah.

41:09.660 --> 41:10.380
Yeah, well, you know,

41:10.480 --> 41:11.320
yeah, like, oh, you

41:11.320 --> 41:11.900
said it was right.

41:12.060 --> 41:12.880
Does that count?

41:13.880 --> 41:14.160
So.

41:14.160 --> 41:16.800
So they were sliding

41:16.800 --> 41:17.940
that into cybercrime.

41:18.480 --> 41:19.440
Yeah, I think there was

41:19.440 --> 41:20.160
a lot of things there.

41:20.280 --> 41:21.200
I think, I don't think

41:21.200 --> 41:21.980
that the article had

41:21.980 --> 41:22.700
enough substantial

41:22.700 --> 41:24.000
statistics to really make

41:24.000 --> 41:25.080
me feel like that's

41:25.080 --> 41:25.820
completely, entirely

41:25.820 --> 41:26.580
accurate, so.

41:26.900 --> 41:27.260
Yeah.

41:28.060 --> 41:29.000
We're getting up there.

41:29.740 --> 41:30.920
I distrust statistics

41:30.920 --> 41:32.080
to begin with, but that

41:32.080 --> 41:33.340
one, the only thing that

41:33.340 --> 41:34.440
I did have to say when I

41:34.440 --> 41:35.260
finished reading that

41:35.260 --> 41:36.720
article was, uh, drug

41:36.720 --> 41:37.740
dealers of the world,

41:38.680 --> 41:39.640
step up, man.

41:40.120 --> 41:40.940
I mean, you guys are

41:40.940 --> 41:41.400
slacking.

41:42.020 --> 41:42.340
Yeah.

41:42.340 --> 41:44.960
Get on IM and start

41:44.960 --> 41:45.680
dealing, you know,

41:45.860 --> 41:46.460
instant messaging

41:46.460 --> 41:47.420
everybody and telling

41:47.420 --> 41:47.880
them, hey, do you

41:47.880 --> 41:48.340
want some weed?

41:48.780 --> 41:48.920
No.

41:49.340 --> 41:50.220
Just start selling

41:50.220 --> 41:51.280
your asses off, because

41:51.280 --> 41:52.020
you guys are getting

41:52.020 --> 41:52.800
beat, man.

41:52.960 --> 41:53.300
I know.

41:53.300 --> 41:54.240
You've got a bunch of

41:54.240 --> 41:55.600
computer nerds are

41:55.600 --> 41:57.160
beating the drug dealers.

41:57.400 --> 41:57.800
Like, that's what

41:57.800 --> 41:59.340
happened on the streets,

41:59.420 --> 42:00.100
they'd get shot.

42:00.320 --> 42:02.100
We're going to see the

42:02.100 --> 42:03.200
fishers and the drug

42:03.200 --> 42:04.240
dealers start combining

42:04.240 --> 42:05.340
forces soon, and we'll

42:05.340 --> 42:07.100
get an email from your

42:07.100 --> 42:08.140
local drug store has

42:08.140 --> 42:09.060
your weed for pickup.

42:09.840 --> 42:10.680
Well, if we're talking

42:10.680 --> 42:11.680
about the Russians, then

42:11.680 --> 42:12.560
they probably already

42:12.560 --> 42:13.020
have.

42:13.580 --> 42:13.900
Probably.

42:14.160 --> 42:15.540
Well, I know the

42:15.540 --> 42:16.380
idea, though, is just

42:16.380 --> 42:16.860
to see, you know, what

42:16.860 --> 42:17.680
this is going to produce,

42:17.760 --> 42:18.420
is that you made a

42:18.420 --> 42:19.280
really good point there.

42:19.800 --> 42:20.960
Maybe intertwining a

42:20.960 --> 42:21.920
drug dealing and cyber

42:21.920 --> 42:22.720
crime together.

42:23.000 --> 42:23.900
Like, hey, we could use

42:23.900 --> 42:25.100
your IT infrastructure to

42:25.100 --> 42:25.800
help us sell.

42:26.740 --> 42:27.020
You know?

42:27.640 --> 42:28.980
So, I'm sure that at

42:28.980 --> 42:30.100
some point, well, if not

42:30.100 --> 42:31.860
it's already being, is

42:31.860 --> 42:32.820
going to be there.

42:34.500 --> 42:35.620
But, because, I mean,

42:35.640 --> 42:36.380
we're finding, like, a

42:36.380 --> 42:37.340
lot of American fishers

42:37.340 --> 42:38.400
are meth freaks.

42:38.520 --> 42:39.200
They're, like, totally

42:39.200 --> 42:40.400
doing it to pay off their

42:40.400 --> 42:41.000
meth at it.

42:41.680 --> 42:42.240
You know, so...

42:42.240 --> 42:43.940
Yeah, that's why I got

42:43.940 --> 42:44.980
robbed at gunpoint once,

42:45.060 --> 42:46.240
so the guy could pay off

42:46.240 --> 42:46.740
his meth habit.

42:47.060 --> 42:48.620
Yeah, wow, sorry to

42:48.620 --> 42:49.000
hear that.

42:49.780 --> 42:50.700
Okay, all I got in my

42:50.700 --> 42:52.020
wallet was, like, $2 and

42:52.020 --> 42:52.980
credit cards were all

42:52.980 --> 42:54.020
canceled before he got

42:54.020 --> 42:54.560
away.

42:54.560 --> 42:55.220
Well, you're lucky he

42:55.220 --> 42:56.140
wasn't completely, like,

42:56.180 --> 42:57.120
freaked out, because, like,

42:57.120 --> 42:57.740
some of those guys are

42:57.740 --> 42:58.480
very unpredictable.

42:59.160 --> 42:59.900
Very twitchy.

43:00.560 --> 43:01.360
Yeah, very twitchy.

43:01.440 --> 43:02.460
I mean, I got, like, one

43:02.460 --> 43:03.340
time I had a weird story

43:03.340 --> 43:04.300
where this guy came up to

43:04.300 --> 43:05.000
my car and was like,

43:05.020 --> 43:06.280
I'll kill you, man!

43:06.280 --> 43:07.620
And I'm like, I don't

43:07.620 --> 43:08.380
know who you are or what

43:08.380 --> 43:09.660
your deal is, but, you

43:09.660 --> 43:10.820
know, like, he was on,

43:10.900 --> 43:11.700
like, some moped or

43:11.700 --> 43:12.000
something.

43:12.120 --> 43:12.740
It was a really weird

43:12.740 --> 43:14.360
movie, but fully strung

43:14.360 --> 43:15.740
out, you know, like, oh,

43:15.800 --> 43:16.020
wow.

43:16.280 --> 43:17.060
Moped checking.

43:18.060 --> 43:18.240
Yeah.

43:18.240 --> 43:19.020
Yeah, no, that was

43:19.020 --> 43:20.700
weird, but, yeah, so

43:20.700 --> 43:22.420
there's a lot of different

43:22.420 --> 43:23.320
motivations for people

43:23.320 --> 43:24.520
getting involved in it, and

43:24.520 --> 43:26.820
so to the point of, you

43:26.820 --> 43:27.800
know, but, yeah, the top

43:27.800 --> 43:28.720
fishers are making some

43:28.720 --> 43:30.680
soothed cash, because, you

43:30.680 --> 43:31.220
know, you've got to look

43:31.220 --> 43:31.700
at it this way.

43:31.700 --> 43:32.800
Russia, culturally, right

43:32.800 --> 43:34.520
now, is, you know, they're

43:34.520 --> 43:35.800
saying that tax evasion is

43:35.800 --> 43:36.860
kind of a sport over there,

43:37.040 --> 43:39.520
so, you know, so it's, you

43:39.520 --> 43:39.960
know, it's a different

43:39.960 --> 43:41.100
economy, and the politics

43:41.100 --> 43:42.480
behind it is, it kind of

43:42.480 --> 43:43.240
makes sense, and I don't

43:43.240 --> 43:44.280
mean to diss America, but

43:44.280 --> 43:45.760
in a way, from their

43:45.760 --> 43:46.940
perspective alone, they

43:46.940 --> 43:47.760
kind of look at it like

43:47.760 --> 43:49.340
F you America, because you

43:49.340 --> 43:50.420
put us in this position, you

43:50.420 --> 43:51.500
said, oh, democracy, and

43:51.500 --> 43:52.360
then we said, oh, let's go,

43:52.440 --> 43:54.080
guys, you know, and so

43:54.080 --> 43:55.440
from their perspective, it's,

43:55.560 --> 43:56.320
you know, become a corrupt

43:56.320 --> 43:57.200
country, because they're

43:57.200 --> 43:58.360
stuck in bread lines, and

43:58.360 --> 43:59.000
they've got to make money,

44:00.000 --> 44:01.680
so that's, you know,

44:01.700 --> 44:02.500
you know, kind of

44:02.500 --> 44:03.840
probably, culturally, that's

44:03.840 --> 44:04.780
how they look at us right

44:04.780 --> 44:06.220
now, so, it doesn't mean I

44:06.220 --> 44:07.240
agree with it, but it's how

44:07.240 --> 44:08.380
they're looking at us right

44:08.380 --> 44:08.580
now.

44:09.540 --> 44:10.620
So, yeah, well, thanks,

44:10.700 --> 44:11.560
Ionic, for calling in.

44:12.260 --> 44:12.660
Thank you.

44:12.680 --> 44:12.900
No problem.

44:13.040 --> 44:13.760
Thank you for having me.

44:14.160 --> 44:15.320
You're very welcome, and if

44:15.320 --> 44:16.160
anyone else wants to call in,

44:16.200 --> 44:17.080
again, the number toll-free,

44:17.180 --> 44:19.640
800-732-0442, from within

44:19.640 --> 44:21.600
the U.S., and from outside

44:21.600 --> 44:26.860
the U.S., country code 1-213-415-1047.

44:29.040 --> 44:29.760
Thank you, Ionic.

44:29.840 --> 44:30.200
See you later.

44:30.200 --> 44:30.260
See you later.

44:32.020 --> 44:32.800
Okay, he's gone.

44:33.440 --> 44:34.080
No dial-toon?

44:35.080 --> 44:36.340
You do that in your show,

44:36.420 --> 44:37.000
have a dial-toon.

44:37.160 --> 44:38.240
Yeah, well, I just pick up my

44:38.240 --> 44:39.300
speakerphone here, and then

44:39.300 --> 44:40.060
there's our dial-toon.

44:40.400 --> 44:40.900
There we go.

44:41.620 --> 44:42.760
He's been hung up on.

44:43.220 --> 44:43.500
Yeah.

44:44.560 --> 44:47.260
So, yeah, so freaking is

44:47.260 --> 44:47.680
lucrative.

44:48.480 --> 44:49.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

44:49.820 --> 44:51.240
Fishing is definitely...

44:51.240 --> 44:51.980
It's not about freaking.

44:51.980 --> 44:54.060
Yeah, you know what?

44:54.080 --> 44:54.760
I was about to say about

44:54.760 --> 44:55.600
freaking, because I just caught

44:55.600 --> 44:56.060
you on the word.

44:56.060 --> 44:58.560
It's lucrative there, too.

44:58.860 --> 44:59.840
There's a lot of fishers

44:59.840 --> 45:01.080
using freaking to actually

45:01.080 --> 45:01.640
get by.

45:02.500 --> 45:03.760
There'll be a soundbite that'll

45:03.760 --> 45:04.700
come back to haunt me.

45:05.660 --> 45:07.340
Yeah, no, but no, it's true.

45:07.440 --> 45:08.320
I mean, if you can spoof

45:08.320 --> 45:09.380
caller ID, you can do a lot of

45:09.380 --> 45:11.060
damage to scamming people.

45:11.220 --> 45:12.280
So, I mean, obviously, that's a

45:12.280 --> 45:12.720
big thing.

45:12.880 --> 45:13.920
Phone phishing, I guess,

45:14.280 --> 45:16.020
which is in Chapter 6, you know.

45:16.440 --> 45:18.480
So I go into detail on, you know,

45:18.540 --> 45:19.720
all the phone problems with

45:19.720 --> 45:20.000
phishing.

45:20.320 --> 45:21.420
So I think let's get into the

45:21.420 --> 45:22.600
evolution of phishing, which is

45:22.600 --> 45:23.560
what you really wanted to talk

45:23.560 --> 45:23.820
about.

45:25.160 --> 45:27.100
Yeah, yeah, a little bit.

45:28.060 --> 45:29.940
Well, here's my big issue right

45:29.940 --> 45:31.100
now, and I'm going to just rant

45:31.100 --> 45:32.060
for a sec, if you don't mind,

45:32.140 --> 45:32.340
Strom.

45:33.500 --> 45:33.800
Go ahead.

45:34.440 --> 45:35.160
Okay, cool.

45:35.280 --> 45:36.080
I just want to make sure I don't

45:36.080 --> 45:37.520
ruin your radio show or anything

45:37.520 --> 45:37.920
going on.

45:38.180 --> 45:39.660
No, I think this radio show

45:39.660 --> 45:41.640
historically has been nothing

45:41.640 --> 45:44.000
but rants, so you're on

45:44.000 --> 45:44.660
safe ground.

45:44.760 --> 45:46.120
Well, my rant is this.

45:46.120 --> 45:48.120
Most people in the game of

45:48.120 --> 45:50.220
anti-phishing, fuck you.

45:50.480 --> 45:51.160
You don't know what you're

45:51.160 --> 45:51.820
talking about.

45:52.560 --> 45:53.300
That's my rant.

45:53.900 --> 45:56.680
So, here's my problem, and I'm

45:56.680 --> 45:57.500
going to diss this out

45:57.500 --> 45:58.180
personally.

45:58.560 --> 45:59.780
It's my chance to say this, but

45:59.780 --> 46:00.900
basically, anti-phishing

46:00.900 --> 46:01.840
working group and all those

46:01.840 --> 46:03.080
types of people out there are

46:03.080 --> 46:04.780
all vendors, and all they're

46:04.780 --> 46:05.860
doing is trying to make money

46:05.860 --> 46:07.020
off people's, like, not

46:07.020 --> 46:08.020
understanding the problem.

46:08.640 --> 46:09.880
And I have a big problem with

46:09.880 --> 46:11.300
that because, you know, I

46:11.300 --> 46:12.920
technically am a vendor, but I

46:12.920 --> 46:15.140
do not sell them what I call

46:15.140 --> 46:15.660
snake oil.

46:15.660 --> 46:16.880
I do not, you know, and I don't

46:16.880 --> 46:17.940
go around selling them.

46:18.120 --> 46:19.060
I'm actually more of a good

46:19.060 --> 46:20.200
Samaritan more than anything.

46:20.980 --> 46:22.820
So, they can come to us when

46:22.820 --> 46:23.720
they need stuff, and that's

46:23.720 --> 46:24.800
usually how we do things.

46:24.980 --> 46:26.380
But, the whole point is, is

46:26.380 --> 46:27.720
that from a true security

46:27.720 --> 46:29.520
standpoint, and BinRev is all

46:29.520 --> 46:30.660
about supporting, you know, the

46:30.660 --> 46:32.740
hackers and the freakers and the

46:32.740 --> 46:33.440
crackers out there.

46:33.460 --> 46:34.480
And the reason why is because

46:34.480 --> 46:35.660
they are the cornerstone to

46:35.660 --> 46:38.480
keeping our technology in, you

46:38.480 --> 46:39.820
know, in check, you know.

46:40.160 --> 46:41.680
So, from my perspective, I take

46:41.680 --> 46:42.960
the same stance when I dealt

46:42.960 --> 46:44.480
with phishing is that these

46:44.480 --> 46:45.540
people, these vendors out there

46:45.540 --> 46:46.720
go, oh, look, we've got this

46:46.720 --> 46:48.380
cool technology called PassMark,

46:48.500 --> 46:49.040
SiteKey.

46:49.160 --> 46:49.960
Let's give it to Bank of

46:49.960 --> 46:50.340
America.

46:51.000 --> 46:52.100
And what that is, is basically

46:52.100 --> 46:53.660
it's a two-way, two-factor

46:53.660 --> 46:55.060
authentication, also known as

46:55.060 --> 46:55.680
market speak.

46:57.220 --> 46:58.460
And what that does is shows you

46:58.460 --> 46:59.720
a picture of, like, something,

46:59.860 --> 47:00.720
and you choose these pictures

47:00.720 --> 47:01.760
and stuff.

47:01.820 --> 47:02.760
The worst part is, if anybody

47:02.760 --> 47:03.660
knows anything about two-factor

47:03.660 --> 47:04.600
authentication, you're not

47:04.600 --> 47:05.460
supposed to do it in-band,

47:05.520 --> 47:06.280
you're not supposed to set it

47:06.280 --> 47:07.320
up in-band, and you don't go

47:07.320 --> 47:09.000
releasing a press release on it

47:09.000 --> 47:09.920
and saying, hey, phishers,

47:09.920 --> 47:11.340
guess what, we just installed.

47:12.780 --> 47:13.000
You know?

47:13.460 --> 47:15.540
Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

47:15.700 --> 47:16.020
Exactly.

47:16.220 --> 47:17.520
So, my point is to say, yeah,

47:17.580 --> 47:18.740
then I see the next email come

47:18.740 --> 47:18.900
out.

47:20.080 --> 47:22.380
Dear phished user, we're putting

47:22.380 --> 47:23.760
in our new SiteKey system.

47:23.860 --> 47:25.400
Please sign up now to, you know,

47:25.520 --> 47:27.040
sign up for your SiteKey, you

47:27.040 --> 47:27.200
know.

47:27.460 --> 47:28.500
And they sign up, and it turns

47:28.500 --> 47:29.760
out that the phishers are sending

47:29.760 --> 47:30.800
them their SiteKey and doing

47:30.800 --> 47:31.920
that in the middle of attacks on

47:31.920 --> 47:32.300
this stuff.

47:32.660 --> 47:33.580
Plus, I hate to say that,

47:33.640 --> 47:34.960
PassMark Security's product does

47:34.960 --> 47:35.900
not stop phishing.

47:36.400 --> 47:38.180
It does not even address malware,

47:38.180 --> 47:39.160
and I hate to say it, the

47:39.160 --> 47:40.660
evolution of phishing will be

47:40.660 --> 47:40.980
malware.

47:41.320 --> 47:42.300
People are sitting there saying,

47:42.560 --> 47:43.560
oh, you know, anybody notice

47:43.560 --> 47:44.700
that the phishing has gone down?

47:44.940 --> 47:46.160
Or they'll say, oh, yeah, the

47:46.160 --> 47:47.280
takedowns are really lowering

47:47.280 --> 47:48.020
those phishing numbers.

47:48.180 --> 47:49.340
Well, here's the news to you.

47:49.500 --> 47:51.240
Taking down things is a bad

47:51.240 --> 47:51.880
thing right now.

47:51.920 --> 47:52.460
You know why?

47:53.580 --> 47:55.660
Because the majority of phishing

47:55.660 --> 47:57.000
spoof sites, you know, the

47:57.000 --> 47:58.300
malicious sites, are hosted in

47:58.300 --> 47:58.980
the United States.

47:59.380 --> 48:00.880
That is to our advantage right

48:00.880 --> 48:01.140
now.

48:01.380 --> 48:01.740
Why?

48:02.000 --> 48:03.580
Because ISPs are your friends.

48:04.000 --> 48:05.080
And there's this nice little law

48:05.080 --> 48:07.960
called Title 18 of USC

48:07.960 --> 48:09.540
1030 that allows you, with the

48:09.540 --> 48:10.620
Terms of Service, to defend

48:10.620 --> 48:11.800
yourself and your network.

48:12.520 --> 48:13.920
And so the ISPs can take some

48:13.920 --> 48:15.640
action that don't require the

48:15.640 --> 48:17.080
FBI or, you know, having to

48:17.080 --> 48:18.180
wait on the bureaucracy of the

48:18.180 --> 48:19.420
government to actually take some

48:19.420 --> 48:19.660
action.

48:20.200 --> 48:21.240
So what's happening is people

48:21.240 --> 48:22.040
are going, oh, I want to take

48:22.040 --> 48:22.980
this down and, like, you know,

48:22.980 --> 48:24.360
get these sites down in, you

48:24.360 --> 48:25.740
know, 15 minutes or 30 minutes.

48:26.560 --> 48:27.720
One, phishings are moving

48:27.720 --> 48:28.820
anyway, so they're not really

48:28.820 --> 48:30.160
going to take your problem as a

48:30.160 --> 48:30.340
threat.

48:30.460 --> 48:31.580
Two, guess what I saw today?

48:32.260 --> 48:33.620
A Roadrunner account that

48:33.620 --> 48:35.140
actually was compromised in using

48:35.140 --> 48:35.620
their site.

48:35.700 --> 48:37.040
How do you take down a modem user?

48:37.040 --> 48:38.640
Do you cut off the Internet?

48:39.300 --> 48:40.360
How do you get a hold of Time

48:40.360 --> 48:41.100
Warner to do it?

48:42.080 --> 48:42.260
You know?

48:42.500 --> 48:44.200
Or what happens when it's five

48:44.200 --> 48:45.260
different modem users from

48:45.260 --> 48:46.460
different things and they

48:46.460 --> 48:47.800
basically start distributing the

48:47.800 --> 48:48.580
actual information?

48:48.860 --> 48:50.660
Or they just move to Korea or

48:50.660 --> 48:51.840
China and countries that don't

48:51.840 --> 48:52.820
want to talk to you or even

48:52.820 --> 48:54.060
help you, right?

48:54.240 --> 48:55.600
Whereas if you didn't take down

48:55.600 --> 48:58.280
and you actually said, hey, why

48:58.280 --> 48:59.580
don't we monitor this and, like,

48:59.620 --> 49:00.520
build something where we can

49:00.520 --> 49:01.840
kind of, like, sever them off into

49:01.840 --> 49:03.240
this corner and we can get more

49:03.240 --> 49:04.840
intelligence on them, you know,

49:04.840 --> 49:05.860
and understand what they're

49:05.860 --> 49:07.560
doing and do the data recovery

49:07.560 --> 49:08.280
and find out what they're

49:08.280 --> 49:08.540
stealing.

49:08.780 --> 49:09.660
Because if you can find out what

49:09.660 --> 49:10.620
they're stealing, you just give it

49:10.620 --> 49:11.740
to the bank that they stole it

49:11.740 --> 49:13.160
from and the bank can handle

49:13.160 --> 49:14.340
actually doing the actual

49:14.340 --> 49:15.320
mitigation of risk.

49:15.900 --> 49:16.940
So instead of sitting there going,

49:17.000 --> 49:18.180
take downs, because they're still

49:18.180 --> 49:18.980
going to get those numbers and

49:18.980 --> 49:20.120
everybody's still black boxed in

49:20.120 --> 49:22.000
what they stole, you know, put

49:22.000 --> 49:23.380
monitoring systems in place or

49:23.380 --> 49:25.220
snort alert files that say, hey,

49:25.280 --> 49:26.360
this looks like a phishing site,

49:26.560 --> 49:27.520
let's keep an eye on it.

49:27.760 --> 49:28.880
Instead of sitting there going, oh,

49:28.940 --> 49:29.980
gosh, we don't want the users to

49:29.980 --> 49:30.340
log in.

49:30.340 --> 49:32.540
And education is one step in the

49:32.540 --> 49:34.440
defense in depth, you know, model

49:34.440 --> 49:34.680
here.

49:34.780 --> 49:36.200
And education, the people that are

49:36.200 --> 49:37.260
getting phish or grandma and

49:37.260 --> 49:38.360
grandpa, they're never going to

49:38.360 --> 49:38.800
hear about it.

49:38.820 --> 49:39.520
And guess what they're running?

49:39.580 --> 49:40.180
Windows 98.

49:40.660 --> 49:42.020
So they don't have Service Pack 2.

49:42.080 --> 49:43.100
They don't have any information

49:43.100 --> 49:43.680
connecting them.

49:43.680 --> 49:44.840
And the malware is going to hurt

49:44.840 --> 49:46.020
them more, you know.

49:46.140 --> 49:48.080
So my rant on this is that, you

49:48.080 --> 49:50.240
know, vendors need to be careful

49:50.240 --> 49:51.200
what they're buying because

49:51.200 --> 49:52.560
there's keyboards out there.

49:52.780 --> 49:55.520
Like, virtual keyboard is another

49:55.520 --> 49:56.660
thing that they've sold out to

49:56.660 --> 49:57.140
these companies.

49:57.300 --> 49:59.360
Citibank, I gave a, Strom, do

49:59.360 --> 49:59.800
you have the link?

50:00.220 --> 50:02.720
Yeah, it's a, let me actually

50:02.720 --> 50:03.740
tiny URL it here.

50:04.460 --> 50:04.720
Okay.

50:06.580 --> 50:07.820
So go ahead about virtual

50:07.820 --> 50:08.000
keyboard.

50:08.000 --> 50:09.400
Yeah, so basically Citibank in

50:09.400 --> 50:11.980
India has engaged in the virtual

50:11.980 --> 50:12.360
keyboard.

50:12.500 --> 50:13.520
What that is is basically

50:13.520 --> 50:14.940
everybody is talking on the news

50:14.940 --> 50:16.800
about key logging, which means

50:16.800 --> 50:18.380
it's logging your keystrokes.

50:18.700 --> 50:19.840
Now, the problem is, is that if

50:19.840 --> 50:21.680
any vendor actually took the time

50:21.680 --> 50:23.040
to analyze all the malware that

50:23.040 --> 50:24.500
actually was involved by phishers,

50:24.980 --> 50:26.880
and this malware would be Burbu,

50:27.160 --> 50:29.660
Mick Glider, Snapper, Hackstore,

50:29.800 --> 50:31.780
PWS Bank, or, you know, things

50:31.780 --> 50:32.720
that are actually, like, designed

50:32.720 --> 50:34.740
to steal your data off your

50:34.740 --> 50:36.980
bank, they don't use keyboard

50:36.980 --> 50:37.380
logging.

50:37.800 --> 50:38.880
They don't actually log the

50:38.880 --> 50:40.260
buffers in your keyboard because

50:40.260 --> 50:40.980
it's unscalable.

50:41.100 --> 50:42.180
Imagine having to try to keep

50:42.180 --> 50:42.780
track of that.

50:42.880 --> 50:43.860
Have you ever put a key logging

50:43.860 --> 50:45.060
hardware device on something and

50:45.060 --> 50:46.080
looking through a notepad and

50:46.080 --> 50:47.100
saying, wow, what a mess?

50:47.560 --> 50:48.780
I can certainly imagine.

50:48.900 --> 50:50.340
That tiny URL, by the way, is

50:50.340 --> 50:55.080
tinyurl.com slash B as in boy, M-M-U-W.

50:56.540 --> 50:56.900
Okay.

50:57.060 --> 50:58.320
And so that's the Citibank's, like,

50:58.380 --> 50:58.880
virtual keyboard.

50:59.280 --> 51:00.820
If anybody actually uses, like,

51:00.880 --> 51:03.000
tamper data or live HTTP headers,

51:03.360 --> 51:04.800
go ahead and, like, fake log into

51:04.800 --> 51:05.040
that.

51:05.140 --> 51:06.180
Like, don't really log into it and

51:06.180 --> 51:07.160
just, like, set up something fake.

51:07.160 --> 51:07.840
And hit submit.

51:08.740 --> 51:11.360
And you'll see the actual HTTP headers

51:11.360 --> 51:12.260
that get sent.

51:12.380 --> 51:14.180
It's a post content that gets sent

51:14.180 --> 51:15.380
to the server.

51:15.820 --> 51:17.100
Well, when you get hit with malware,

51:17.240 --> 51:18.660
it doesn't actually do keyboard

51:18.660 --> 51:19.000
logging.

51:19.140 --> 51:20.000
It actually does what's called

51:20.000 --> 51:20.660
form grabbing.

51:20.980 --> 51:22.540
It logs your posts and your get

51:22.540 --> 51:23.660
sent, you know, submissions.

51:24.420 --> 51:26.140
So when you send submit, it doesn't

51:26.140 --> 51:27.020
matter if you have a virtual

51:27.020 --> 51:28.340
keyboard because it's not looking

51:28.340 --> 51:28.860
at the keyboard.

51:29.000 --> 51:30.280
It's looking at your browser.

51:30.880 --> 51:32.240
And it's actually logging in via

51:32.240 --> 51:33.560
a browser helper object.

51:33.960 --> 51:34.940
And so it'll hook into your

51:34.940 --> 51:36.180
browser and, you know, basically

51:36.180 --> 51:38.780
you can see the malware send

51:38.780 --> 51:40.560
your data off, actually, if you

51:40.560 --> 51:42.260
had, like, headers on, on your

51:42.260 --> 51:43.840
IE, if you were infected.

51:44.260 --> 51:45.700
So, like, it actually takes that

51:45.700 --> 51:47.320
and so it bypasses any of the,

51:47.320 --> 51:48.680
you know, keyboard, you know,

51:48.680 --> 51:49.660
strokes or anything like that.

51:49.680 --> 51:50.520
It has nothing to do with it

51:50.520 --> 51:51.740
because it's more scalable just

51:51.740 --> 51:52.860
to say, hey, look, here's the

51:52.860 --> 51:53.060
URL.

51:53.200 --> 51:54.760
It's hdbbankofamerica.com or

51:54.760 --> 51:57.100
citibank.com slash, you know,

51:57.140 --> 51:58.660
here's the information and then

51:58.660 --> 51:59.880
here's the content in their post.

52:00.320 --> 52:01.420
And their content will show their

52:01.420 --> 52:03.620
password and their login, you

52:03.620 --> 52:05.120
know, plus their cookies sometimes

52:05.120 --> 52:05.840
depending on what they're

52:05.840 --> 52:06.120
gathering.

52:06.540 --> 52:07.400
But the whole point is that

52:07.400 --> 52:08.920
virtual keyboards do not work.

52:09.120 --> 52:10.240
So don't let some vendor, like,

52:10.340 --> 52:12.280
you know, sell you this because

52:12.280 --> 52:13.120
it's crap.

52:13.200 --> 52:13.920
It's crap software.

52:15.580 --> 52:16.660
You know, so my biggest issue

52:16.660 --> 52:18.820
there is that another rant is

52:18.820 --> 52:20.140
that vendors need to start,

52:20.280 --> 52:21.340
you know, the banks, the

52:21.340 --> 52:22.300
institutions need to start

52:22.300 --> 52:23.480
taking more responsibility.

52:24.120 --> 52:26.000
Image versus reality.

52:26.460 --> 52:27.700
The banks don't really care about

52:27.700 --> 52:28.580
you, I'm sorry to tell you.

52:29.220 --> 52:30.020
Did you have something to say,

52:30.100 --> 52:30.520
Strom, I thought?

52:30.540 --> 52:31.360
Yeah, well, I was going to say,

52:31.420 --> 52:32.200
well, if this doesn't work,

52:32.260 --> 52:32.840
what does work?

52:32.900 --> 52:33.480
But I'm sure you're going to

52:33.480 --> 52:34.560
get into that in a short way.

52:34.560 --> 52:35.100
Oh, yeah.

52:35.340 --> 52:36.540
Well, I don't want to pump my

52:36.540 --> 52:37.900
technology, but I do want to pump

52:37.900 --> 52:39.080
like some common sense into

52:39.080 --> 52:39.360
people.

52:39.700 --> 52:40.820
You know, like we did build some

52:40.820 --> 52:42.660
technology that actually, you

52:42.660 --> 52:44.520
know, can see someone mirroring

52:44.520 --> 52:44.940
your site.

52:45.060 --> 52:46.240
We can see when they actually

52:46.240 --> 52:47.400
like start testing your site.

52:47.460 --> 52:48.760
So we see the fish way in advance

52:48.760 --> 52:49.640
and it sits on the bank.

52:49.640 --> 52:52.300
But all we did was actually study

52:52.300 --> 52:52.920
how fishing works.

52:53.000 --> 52:54.180
All I'm saying to the sellers of

52:54.180 --> 52:55.360
the world that sell people in our

52:55.360 --> 52:56.640
fishing, stop doing it for money

52:56.640 --> 52:58.240
and do it for actually solving the

52:58.240 --> 52:59.340
problem because really no one's

52:59.340 --> 53:00.160
going to solve the problem for

53:00.160 --> 53:00.500
tomorrow.

53:00.600 --> 53:01.440
They're going to just solve it for

53:01.440 --> 53:03.060
this second, you know.

53:03.300 --> 53:04.340
And they go, oh, look, two-factor

53:04.340 --> 53:04.740
authentication.

53:04.900 --> 53:06.140
By the time they install that, a

53:06.140 --> 53:07.240
bank takes about a year and a half

53:07.240 --> 53:09.240
to get anything installed, okay.

53:09.560 --> 53:10.860
By the time they install that, we're

53:10.860 --> 53:12.160
moved on and the fishers have

53:12.160 --> 53:13.220
to, you know.

53:13.980 --> 53:16.260
So it's like you have to be a

53:16.260 --> 53:17.000
little bit more realistic.

53:17.160 --> 53:18.600
What's going to work in the long

53:18.600 --> 53:18.780
run?

53:18.880 --> 53:20.220
Find the weaknesses in how

53:20.220 --> 53:22.000
fishing works, okay.

53:22.160 --> 53:23.600
Look at the methodology that they

53:23.600 --> 53:25.020
use and say, hey, what's obvious

53:25.020 --> 53:26.080
in all of these things?

53:26.460 --> 53:27.900
And then start building that off of

53:27.900 --> 53:29.220
those weaknesses so that you force

53:29.220 --> 53:30.960
them into a corner of making it

53:30.960 --> 53:31.840
more difficult to evolve.

53:31.940 --> 53:33.460
Because the name of the game is

53:33.460 --> 53:34.540
numbers when it comes to fishing.

53:34.780 --> 53:35.920
There is no absolute security.

53:36.020 --> 53:36.820
There's no silver bullet.

53:37.420 --> 53:38.300
So what's going to happen is

53:38.300 --> 53:39.240
basically you've got to play the

53:39.240 --> 53:40.640
numbers game, just like in spam.

53:40.740 --> 53:41.920
So what you do is make fishing

53:41.920 --> 53:42.400
difficult.

53:42.400 --> 53:44.140
If you really make it difficult,

53:44.320 --> 53:45.680
you throw away all the kitties that

53:45.680 --> 53:46.700
are doing it and picking it up

53:46.700 --> 53:48.480
just in Romania, you know.

53:48.640 --> 53:49.960
And then what happens then is you

53:49.960 --> 53:51.720
basically, you know, have a few

53:51.720 --> 53:52.920
people that you can focus on and

53:52.920 --> 53:53.920
then go after and go for

53:53.920 --> 53:54.480
apprehension.

53:54.740 --> 53:55.800
Right now, everybody's like, oh,

53:55.840 --> 53:57.000
gosh, I'm overwhelmed with all

53:57.000 --> 53:57.480
this fishing.

53:57.960 --> 53:59.020
Well, that's because you guys are

53:59.020 --> 54:01.020
making it easy for them, you know.

54:01.280 --> 54:02.800
So you've got to know how to

54:02.800 --> 54:03.600
actually, like, you know.

54:04.340 --> 54:05.400
Anybody who wants to, like,

54:05.440 --> 54:06.480
interest in learning more, just,

54:06.540 --> 54:09.560
you know, email me offline, you

54:09.560 --> 54:11.180
know, info at securescience.net.

54:11.180 --> 54:12.120
And, you know, I can go into

54:12.120 --> 54:13.240
detail about, you know, more

54:13.240 --> 54:14.160
common sense, especially if you're

54:14.160 --> 54:14.940
an ISP listening.

54:15.520 --> 54:17.400
You know, we've got a free service,

54:17.520 --> 54:18.580
you know, counter phishing your

54:18.580 --> 54:20.040
ISP, you know, so that you can

54:20.040 --> 54:22.820
basically, you know, have some

54:22.820 --> 54:24.200
things stepped in so that you can

54:24.200 --> 54:25.820
see if a fisher's about to set up

54:25.820 --> 54:26.620
shop and things like that.

54:26.700 --> 54:28.640
So, you know, you know, but I'm not

54:28.640 --> 54:29.860
here to promote our stuff.

54:29.860 --> 54:31.220
I mean, most of the stuff we do for

54:31.220 --> 54:32.300
ISPs is free anyways.

54:33.060 --> 54:36.000
So, but, you know, the image

54:36.000 --> 54:37.740
versus reality problem I'm having

54:37.740 --> 54:39.500
is that basically what's happening

54:39.500 --> 54:40.680
is these banks and these

54:40.680 --> 54:41.820
institutions are more concerned

54:41.820 --> 54:44.120
with their image of what people

54:44.120 --> 54:44.980
will think because they don't want

54:44.980 --> 54:46.220
to lose their customers rather than

54:46.220 --> 54:47.440
the reality that the customers are

54:47.440 --> 54:48.580
still getting owned but they don't

54:48.580 --> 54:49.020
see it.

54:49.780 --> 54:50.940
You see, the fishers, you know,

54:50.980 --> 54:52.040
the numbers are looking like they

54:52.040 --> 54:53.440
go down because the fishers are

54:53.440 --> 54:54.880
evolving to more clandestine

54:54.880 --> 54:55.400
techniques.

54:56.220 --> 54:57.620
So what's happening is malware and

54:57.620 --> 54:58.140
things like that.

54:58.140 --> 54:59.420
You know, the Windows 98 users have

54:59.420 --> 55:00.760
no clue that it's been infected for

55:00.760 --> 55:02.500
ages and that they're sending off

55:02.500 --> 55:02.820
data.

55:03.260 --> 55:04.100
And I mean, like, I'm literally

55:04.100 --> 55:05.660
looking at a file right now that

55:05.660 --> 55:07.260
I'm grabbing and I'm actually, you

55:07.260 --> 55:08.140
know, like I told you about that

55:08.140 --> 55:09.680
hack earlier and the personal hacks

55:09.680 --> 55:11.260
and I'm, you know, getting this

55:11.260 --> 55:13.560
data live and the average per day

55:13.560 --> 55:15.120
is about 10 megabytes of stolen

55:15.120 --> 55:16.780
data, you know.

55:16.960 --> 55:18.160
So these people are getting their

55:18.160 --> 55:21.140
data stolen like a horde of 10

55:21.140 --> 55:22.940
megs at a time, you know.

55:23.460 --> 55:25.920
And so, and, you know, it's still

55:25.920 --> 55:27.100
working and the numbers are still

55:27.100 --> 55:28.660
keeping up and these malwares last

55:28.660 --> 55:29.860
like two to four weeks with

55:29.860 --> 55:32.360
undetectable, you know.

55:32.440 --> 55:34.540
And so, from our perspective, you

55:34.540 --> 55:35.540
know, just because you don't see

55:35.540 --> 55:37.860
phishing hitting your site doesn't

55:37.860 --> 55:39.320
mean that you're not getting owned

55:39.320 --> 55:40.380
and that's also, you've got to

55:40.380 --> 55:41.600
remember all the stuff they stole in

55:41.600 --> 55:43.180
2004, you don't know about.

55:43.920 --> 55:45.240
You know, I do.

55:45.420 --> 55:47.120
I actually have a site with 400 gigs

55:47.120 --> 55:48.280
of stolen data on it.

55:49.280 --> 55:50.340
So it's free.

55:50.440 --> 55:51.520
So any bank that's out there

55:51.520 --> 55:52.720
possibly listening, you know,

55:52.720 --> 55:54.600
you know, come and, again, send us

55:54.600 --> 55:56.740
info at Secure Science and say,

55:56.800 --> 55:57.720
hey, you know, I want to find out

55:57.720 --> 55:59.420
if our customer's data has been

55:59.420 --> 56:01.380
stolen and we'll send you a PGP

56:01.380 --> 56:03.660
file and set you up to go so that

56:03.660 --> 56:04.580
you can help, you know, your

56:04.580 --> 56:06.020
customers mitigate the risk.

56:06.380 --> 56:07.220
In three months' time, we're

56:07.220 --> 56:08.280
actually, we've invested in some

56:08.280 --> 56:08.840
stuff that's neat.

56:09.280 --> 56:10.160
What we're going to do is an

56:10.160 --> 56:12.460
identity theft system, basically

56:12.460 --> 56:13.580
all the data that we have, we're

56:13.580 --> 56:14.360
going to start giving it to the

56:14.360 --> 56:14.680
customers.

56:14.800 --> 56:15.360
Now, we're not going to give them

56:15.360 --> 56:15.980
the sensitive data.

56:16.040 --> 56:17.040
We're going to give them the

56:17.040 --> 56:19.000
numbers to call to the banks that

56:19.000 --> 56:20.060
they've been compromised from.

56:20.060 --> 56:21.080
So if they've been compromised

56:21.080 --> 56:22.400
like Wells Fargo, it'll say

56:22.400 --> 56:23.900
Wells Fargo and their 1-800

56:23.900 --> 56:25.080
number for their hotline.

56:25.360 --> 56:26.560
What this will do is push the

56:26.560 --> 56:27.920
banks into, you know, it'll

56:27.920 --> 56:29.220
basically provide pressure on

56:29.220 --> 56:30.320
the banks from the customers

56:30.320 --> 56:32.020
because now the secret's out,

56:32.800 --> 56:33.140
you know.

56:33.380 --> 56:34.260
The banks aren't doing their

56:34.260 --> 56:35.480
job, you know.

56:35.580 --> 56:37.320
So basically, you know, so

56:37.320 --> 56:38.460
that's where I'm coming from

56:38.460 --> 56:38.660
there.

56:38.780 --> 56:40.160
And so instead of taking this

56:40.160 --> 56:41.620
image of we're not getting

56:41.620 --> 56:43.040
phished, start applying and

56:43.040 --> 56:43.820
learning about malware.

56:44.000 --> 56:45.220
Learn how to analyze malware.

56:45.400 --> 56:46.200
You know, we're doing training

56:46.200 --> 56:47.500
sessions, if I can promote

56:47.500 --> 56:48.120
myself a little bit.

56:48.120 --> 56:49.400
We do do training sessions on

56:49.400 --> 56:50.960
actually malware analysis and

56:50.960 --> 56:52.100
how to look at this stuff and

56:52.100 --> 56:53.240
actually how to do shortcut

56:53.240 --> 56:53.760
tools.

56:54.460 --> 56:55.340
Also, I'll be speaking at

56:55.340 --> 56:55.740
Shmookon.

56:55.800 --> 56:56.840
There's a free talk for you,

56:57.240 --> 56:58.100
you know, other than

56:58.100 --> 56:58.640
registration.

56:58.840 --> 57:00.300
Go there and I'm showing a

57:00.300 --> 57:01.400
lot of shortcuts to actually

57:01.400 --> 57:02.560
how to look at phishing

57:02.560 --> 57:03.960
malware and recover the data.

57:04.380 --> 57:04.700
Yeah, definitely.

57:04.960 --> 57:05.880
Although an attack that

57:05.880 --> 57:07.180
occurs to me, you know,

57:07.200 --> 57:08.120
based on what you just said

57:08.120 --> 57:08.860
is, you know, send an

57:08.860 --> 57:10.200
email, we believe your data

57:10.200 --> 57:10.800
has been compromised.

57:11.020 --> 57:11.900
Please call the bank at

57:11.900 --> 57:12.940
800 number and they call

57:12.940 --> 57:13.780
it and it sounds like

57:13.780 --> 57:14.840
Wells Fargo, but in reality

57:14.840 --> 57:15.460
it's just something you've

57:15.460 --> 57:16.660
set up on an asterisk box.

57:17.260 --> 57:17.580
Right.

57:17.580 --> 57:18.780
Now, the whole thing

57:18.780 --> 57:19.940
about that is what we are

57:19.940 --> 57:20.940
going to do is we have

57:20.940 --> 57:22.120
daylight fraud prevention in

57:22.120 --> 57:22.300
there.

57:22.680 --> 57:24.000
So, if you're not at the

57:24.000 --> 57:25.000
site, we're going to, you

57:25.000 --> 57:25.640
know, provide, you know,

57:25.660 --> 57:26.280
we're going to provide as

57:26.280 --> 57:26.940
much education.

57:27.100 --> 57:28.920
Plus, I mean, the problem

57:28.920 --> 57:30.160
with this is that that's one

57:30.160 --> 57:30.700
of the reasons why we

57:30.700 --> 57:31.480
didn't put the information

57:31.480 --> 57:32.420
online to these people

57:32.420 --> 57:33.100
because, I mean, it's a

57:33.100 --> 57:34.780
Fisher's gold mine, you

57:34.780 --> 57:34.960
know.

57:35.160 --> 57:36.040
But what we're going to do is

57:36.040 --> 57:38.060
out of band SMS messaging

57:38.060 --> 57:39.140
and, of course, there's SMS

57:39.140 --> 57:40.220
spoofing out there, but we're

57:40.220 --> 57:41.180
going to basically have it

57:41.180 --> 57:43.000
more of an extendable system

57:43.000 --> 57:43.740
so that they don't

57:43.740 --> 57:45.320
necessarily run into the

57:45.320 --> 57:45.560
email.

57:45.560 --> 57:46.200
Because we're going to

57:46.200 --> 57:47.360
say, we will not email you

57:47.360 --> 57:47.940
this information.

57:48.080 --> 57:49.140
We will not email you this

57:49.140 --> 57:49.560
at all.

57:51.160 --> 57:52.300
You know, so that basically

57:52.300 --> 57:54.040
they are going to, you

57:54.040 --> 57:55.280
know, we're going to have to

57:55.280 --> 57:56.700
provide some information to

57:56.700 --> 57:57.040
these people.

57:57.120 --> 57:57.760
But the people going to

57:57.760 --> 57:58.580
this site are already going

57:58.580 --> 57:59.420
to be interested in finding

57:59.420 --> 58:00.400
out if their identity is

58:00.400 --> 58:00.620
stolen.

58:00.740 --> 58:01.520
So they're going to be eager

58:01.520 --> 58:02.400
to learn how to take

58:02.400 --> 58:03.100
certain precautions.

58:03.580 --> 58:04.260
So there's going to be a

58:04.260 --> 58:05.300
lot of education on the

58:05.300 --> 58:05.540
site.

58:05.960 --> 58:07.040
So if they're already there,

58:07.140 --> 58:08.600
then obviously, thank God

58:08.600 --> 58:09.240
you're there because then

58:09.240 --> 58:10.320
you're looking at education,

58:10.480 --> 58:11.140
learning how to be more

58:11.140 --> 58:12.320
careful with your data, and

58:12.320 --> 58:12.840
you're going to find out

58:12.840 --> 58:13.700
if you've got any stuff

58:13.700 --> 58:14.020
stolen.

58:14.020 --> 58:15.080
Another thing that we're

58:15.080 --> 58:15.900
doing, though, with that

58:15.900 --> 58:17.620
program is eventually we're

58:17.620 --> 58:18.360
going to work with, like,

58:18.420 --> 58:20.000
other, you know, institutions

58:20.000 --> 58:21.300
and plug an API in there.

58:21.340 --> 58:22.480
So if a user logs in, it

58:22.480 --> 58:23.420
lets the institution know

58:23.420 --> 58:24.540
right away that we've seen

58:24.540 --> 58:25.220
some data in our

58:25.220 --> 58:27.500
intelligence, you know, get

58:27.500 --> 58:28.500
compromised with their stuff

58:28.500 --> 58:29.320
so that the bank can be

58:29.320 --> 58:30.600
responsible and say, oh, in

58:30.600 --> 58:31.640
real time we let you know

58:31.640 --> 58:33.320
and we basically will work

58:33.320 --> 58:34.140
with you and then we can

58:34.140 --> 58:35.180
have an ActiveX thing that

58:35.180 --> 58:36.380
will rid the malware off your

58:36.380 --> 58:36.760
system.

58:37.300 --> 58:38.520
So from the bank, though.

58:38.820 --> 58:39.600
And, I mean, there's

58:39.600 --> 58:40.700
phishing and still social

58:40.700 --> 58:41.080
engineering.

58:41.080 --> 58:42.260
There are so many ways to

58:42.260 --> 58:43.760
get someone to fool them.

58:43.920 --> 58:44.540
But it's an old-school

58:44.540 --> 58:44.880
scam.

58:44.980 --> 58:46.140
You could do it via fax.

58:46.280 --> 58:47.360
You could do it via home

58:47.360 --> 58:47.780
mail.

58:47.960 --> 58:49.260
I mean, that's unfortunate

58:49.260 --> 58:50.020
about that part.

58:50.220 --> 58:52.380
But at least you'll have some

58:52.380 --> 58:53.540
more technical knowledge of

58:53.540 --> 58:55.040
how to be online safer in that

58:55.040 --> 58:55.320
sense.

58:55.740 --> 58:56.580
I mean, I don't want to

58:56.580 --> 58:57.700
discourage anybody from using

58:57.700 --> 58:58.500
online banking.

58:58.860 --> 59:00.400
But, you know, a lot of it is

59:00.400 --> 59:01.280
just having common sense.

59:01.400 --> 59:02.980
If you feel any inkling that

59:02.980 --> 59:04.200
anything is suspicious, then

59:04.200 --> 59:05.900
call your bank the number you

59:05.900 --> 59:06.680
have on the back of your

59:06.680 --> 59:07.160
credit card.

59:07.960 --> 59:08.180
You know?

59:08.760 --> 59:11.020
And so that's one of the

59:11.020 --> 59:11.760
things I would promote.

59:11.940 --> 59:12.640
It's like, you know, just

59:12.640 --> 59:13.760
take the common sense

59:13.760 --> 59:15.060
precautions and trust your

59:15.060 --> 59:15.400
instincts.

59:15.500 --> 59:17.100
If you don't trust it, don't

59:17.100 --> 59:17.980
follow through.

59:18.060 --> 59:18.860
Don't click on that link.

59:20.240 --> 59:21.980
But speaking of image versus

59:21.980 --> 59:23.480
reality, also another problem

59:23.480 --> 59:24.580
we have with those image

59:24.580 --> 59:25.020
people.

59:25.180 --> 59:25.400
T.D.

59:25.460 --> 59:26.300
Waterhouse doesn't get

59:26.300 --> 59:27.200
phished yet, I guess.

59:28.540 --> 59:29.540
I mean, they do.

59:30.220 --> 59:31.480
But with mail, we're not

59:31.480 --> 59:32.820
actually like a phishing

59:32.820 --> 59:33.140
email.

59:33.140 --> 59:36.200
You know, there's a few

59:36.200 --> 59:37.440
little TV companies that

59:37.440 --> 59:38.700
have been, like their bank

59:38.700 --> 59:39.040
and everything.

59:39.720 --> 59:40.880
But they're an investor

59:40.880 --> 59:41.980
house and such like that.

59:42.060 --> 59:43.280
And so I put up a link,

59:43.340 --> 59:44.100
which you can probably put a

59:44.100 --> 59:45.240
tiny URL to as well.

59:45.300 --> 59:46.380
Yeah, I just tiny URL'd it.

59:46.560 --> 59:48.560
It's tinyurl.com slash,

59:49.240 --> 59:51.560
as in Apple, L as in Lion,

59:51.860 --> 59:53.520
V, V as in Volkswagen,

59:53.660 --> 59:55.040
Volkswagen, O.

59:58.240 --> 59:58.600
That's it.

59:58.620 --> 59:59.680
A-L-V-V-O.

59:59.760 --> 01:00:00.980
Or if you want to type in

01:00:00.980 --> 01:00:02.360
the full thing, it's

01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:04.320
ip.securescience.net

01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:05.600
slash exploits

01:00:05.600 --> 01:00:07.880
slash td.html.

01:00:08.520 --> 01:00:09.320
Yeah, as in T.D.

01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:09.660
Waterhouse.

01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:10.980
And what that does is you

01:00:10.980 --> 01:00:11.780
click on that link and it

01:00:11.780 --> 01:00:12.420
shows you that we're

01:00:12.420 --> 01:00:13.480
actually using the real

01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:16.040
www.tdwaterhouse.com

01:00:16.040 --> 01:00:16.420
site.

01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:18.340
That's 404ing.

01:00:19.380 --> 01:00:19.900
Is it?

01:00:20.180 --> 01:00:20.540
Yes.

01:00:22.620 --> 01:00:23.180
Hold on.

01:00:24.120 --> 01:00:24.440
T.D.

01:00:24.580 --> 01:00:25.140
Waterhouse did?

01:00:25.300 --> 01:00:26.020
Okay, hold on one second.

01:00:26.300 --> 01:00:27.180
Well, it says not found.

01:00:27.260 --> 01:00:28.020
URL exploits

01:00:28.020 --> 01:00:29.620
td.html is not found on the

01:00:29.620 --> 01:00:29.840
server.

01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:31.420
That's weird because I

01:00:31.420 --> 01:00:31.960
just went there.

01:00:41.200 --> 01:00:42.140
Oh, I'm sorry.

01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:43.000
I sent you the wrong

01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:43.500
link, my butt.

01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:44.180
Okay.

01:00:45.340 --> 01:00:46.380
tdwaterhouse.html.

01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:46.840
Okay.

01:00:47.640 --> 01:00:48.040
Okay.

01:00:48.340 --> 01:00:48.740
My bad.

01:00:49.180 --> 01:00:50.740
Well, let me

01:00:50.740 --> 01:00:52.000
tiny URL that for our

01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:52.280
listeners.

01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:55.840
And that's

01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:56.660
T as in David,

01:00:56.820 --> 01:00:57.580
three, six.

01:00:57.820 --> 01:00:58.500
T as in Tom,

01:00:58.600 --> 01:00:59.120
the number two.

01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:00.240
Yeah.

01:01:00.500 --> 01:01:02.340
So it's tdwaterhouse.html

01:01:02.340 --> 01:01:03.200
after the exploits.

01:01:03.780 --> 01:01:04.680
And if you log into that,

01:01:04.780 --> 01:01:05.640
basically what will happen

01:01:05.640 --> 01:01:08.020
is it's a setup where if you

01:01:08.020 --> 01:01:09.160
type in any credentials,

01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:10.980
it's, you know, the domain

01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:13.400
actually says www.tdwaterhouse.com.

01:01:13.460 --> 01:01:14.140
That's because we're there,

01:01:14.180 --> 01:01:15.360
but we're using a cross-site.

01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:17.180
Well, we're doing HTML injection

01:01:17.180 --> 01:01:18.720
that enabled cross-site scripting.

01:01:18.780 --> 01:01:20.060
So we're actually like took over

01:01:20.060 --> 01:01:20.800
the entire site.

01:01:20.860 --> 01:01:21.720
So the bottom frame is

01:01:21.720 --> 01:01:22.480
secretly ours.

01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:24.240
And so if you hit log in,

01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:24.660
it'll say,

01:01:24.740 --> 01:01:25.500
thanks for your passwords.

01:01:25.600 --> 01:01:26.240
They taste great.

01:01:26.420 --> 01:01:27.600
And then the next page will take you

01:01:27.600 --> 01:01:28.840
to our secure science site

01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:29.620
underneath of that,

01:01:29.700 --> 01:01:31.200
showing that that could have

01:01:31.200 --> 01:01:32.280
been a fisher doing that.

01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:34.100
And I told them six months ago

01:01:34.100 --> 01:01:35.260
that this was occurring

01:01:35.260 --> 01:01:37.040
and they still have not fixed it.

01:01:37.120 --> 01:01:37.720
And it's, you know,

01:01:37.820 --> 01:01:38.920
featured in my book on how to

01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:39.980
actually set up the attack.

01:01:40.980 --> 01:01:42.020
Yeah, so let's see.

01:01:42.100 --> 01:01:42.860
It uses the,

01:01:42.860 --> 01:01:45.460
the top is actually

01:01:45.460 --> 01:01:47.620
the bottom frame.

01:01:48.260 --> 01:01:48.400
Yeah.

01:01:48.540 --> 01:01:49.480
And we could, I mean,

01:01:49.500 --> 01:01:50.060
if you want to,

01:01:50.100 --> 01:01:50.780
I can get real technical

01:01:50.780 --> 01:01:52.100
and we can do a JavaScript

01:01:52.100 --> 01:01:53.720
that would take over both frames

01:01:53.720 --> 01:01:55.320
using the parent frame DOM API.

01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:56.120
I'm looking at it.

01:01:56.120 --> 01:01:56.920
I don't see anywhere

01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:59.000
that says secure science.

01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:00.600
Yeah, it's pushed all the way

01:02:00.600 --> 01:02:01.160
to the end.

01:02:01.520 --> 01:02:02.440
So you'd have to highlight

01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:03.260
the entire URL.

01:02:04.940 --> 01:02:05.660
Oh, okay.

01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:06.040
So.

01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:07.200
Yeah, you see how it's

01:02:07.200 --> 01:02:07.960
all the way over there?

01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:10.660
Um, I'm not seeing it.

01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:11.760
Okay.

01:02:12.100 --> 01:02:12.460
Um.

01:02:12.540 --> 01:02:13.060
Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:02:13.120 --> 01:02:13.540
There it is.

01:02:13.560 --> 01:02:13.920
There it is.

01:02:13.940 --> 01:02:14.320
There it is.

01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:15.800
IP.securescience.net.

01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:16.700
Yep.

01:02:17.520 --> 01:02:18.020
So, yeah.

01:02:18.300 --> 01:02:19.560
So basically on my site

01:02:19.560 --> 01:02:20.220
underneath and then

01:02:20.220 --> 01:02:20.800
if you log in,

01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:21.420
it's just those,

01:02:21.500 --> 01:02:22.300
uh, JavaScript popped in.

01:02:22.500 --> 01:02:23.360
Now you can take over

01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:24.160
the entire site,

01:02:24.240 --> 01:02:24.620
which you can do

01:02:24.620 --> 01:02:25.660
some real damage to.

01:02:26.080 --> 01:02:26.920
Uh, in my book,

01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:27.640
I actually show how

01:02:27.640 --> 01:02:29.020
to break their SSL as well.

01:02:29.020 --> 01:02:29.840
So you can actually,

01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:31.060
like, end up compromising

01:02:31.060 --> 01:02:32.600
SSL where you won't

01:02:32.600 --> 01:02:33.000
get a warning.

01:02:33.100 --> 01:02:34.080
You'll have a full block

01:02:34.080 --> 01:02:34.840
up, um,

01:02:35.020 --> 01:02:35.920
lock down at the bottom

01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:36.580
that says, you know,

01:02:36.660 --> 01:02:37.940
webbroker.tdwaterhouse.com

01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:39.600
The top domain says that.

01:02:40.040 --> 01:02:40.940
It's HTTPS.

01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:41.680
Everything's perfect.

01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:42.540
Just as how people

01:02:42.540 --> 01:02:43.120
are taught to,

01:02:43.540 --> 01:02:43.720
you know,

01:02:43.740 --> 01:02:44.520
the basic information

01:02:44.520 --> 01:02:45.120
that's taught to make

01:02:45.120 --> 01:02:46.040
sure your SSL cert

01:02:46.040 --> 01:02:46.580
is, you know,

01:02:46.620 --> 01:02:47.000
accurate.

01:02:47.380 --> 01:02:48.600
You can view the SSL cert

01:02:48.600 --> 01:02:49.680
or say, you know,

01:02:49.720 --> 01:02:50.720
you're at VeriSign

01:02:50.720 --> 01:02:52.940
tdwaterhouse.com

01:02:52.940 --> 01:02:54.580
But secretly underneath,

01:02:54.660 --> 01:02:55.700
it's my SSL cert

01:02:55.700 --> 01:02:56.760
embedded in there

01:02:56.760 --> 01:02:57.460
that's actually doing

01:02:57.460 --> 01:02:58.460
the encryption and decryption

01:02:58.460 --> 01:02:59.120
because I've taken over

01:02:59.120 --> 01:02:59.600
the frames.

01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:01.400
So it's, it's,

01:03:01.540 --> 01:03:02.300
you don't need the secret

01:03:02.300 --> 01:03:03.320
key to break SSL.

01:03:03.540 --> 01:03:04.560
News to some people,

01:03:04.640 --> 01:03:05.140
but, you know.

01:03:06.260 --> 01:03:06.820
Yeah, and I turned

01:03:06.820 --> 01:03:07.740
a lot again that says,

01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:08.560
thanks, your password

01:03:08.560 --> 01:03:09.420
tastes great

01:03:09.420 --> 01:03:09.900
and it takes me

01:03:09.900 --> 01:03:10.780
to your page.

01:03:11.460 --> 01:03:12.080
Yeah, it does.

01:03:12.180 --> 01:03:13.140
So, and it shows you

01:03:13.140 --> 01:03:13.920
which frame I'm in.

01:03:14.140 --> 01:03:16.340
So, but yeah,

01:03:16.460 --> 01:03:17.480
so, so, you know,

01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:18.160
those are the things

01:03:18.160 --> 01:03:19.180
that I'm concerned with

01:03:19.180 --> 01:03:19.880
is like, you know,

01:03:19.940 --> 01:03:20.820
the evolution of it

01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:21.880
is they are getting smarter.

01:03:22.680 --> 01:03:23.480
Recently when this book

01:03:23.480 --> 01:03:24.020
got published,

01:03:24.160 --> 01:03:24.580
the IRS,

01:03:24.780 --> 01:03:25.480
I don't know if some people

01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:26.540
saw it in Yahoo News

01:03:26.540 --> 01:03:27.060
and Google News

01:03:27.060 --> 01:03:29.260
that IRS got phished.

01:03:29.940 --> 01:03:30.720
And what they used

01:03:30.720 --> 01:03:32.300
was govbenefits.gov's

01:03:32.300 --> 01:03:32.740
website.

01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:33.840
And they did a redirect

01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:34.460
attack.

01:03:34.460 --> 01:03:35.600
So what happened

01:03:35.600 --> 01:03:36.580
was it had an URL

01:03:36.580 --> 01:03:37.140
where you could put

01:03:37.140 --> 01:03:38.640
any arbitrary URL to it.

01:03:39.060 --> 01:03:40.000
And so they basically

01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:40.940
sent it to their phishing

01:03:40.940 --> 01:03:41.940
site, but in their email

01:03:41.940 --> 01:03:42.620
it actually was

01:03:42.620 --> 01:03:43.700
to a .gov site.

01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:44.440
So you'd go to the

01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:45.520
gov site and then

01:03:45.520 --> 01:03:46.180
take them to the

01:03:46.180 --> 01:03:46.640
news site.

01:03:47.100 --> 01:03:47.680
Now there are better

01:03:47.680 --> 01:03:48.640
attacks, like Gmail

01:03:48.640 --> 01:03:49.640
has one and Yahoo

01:03:49.640 --> 01:03:50.340
both have one,

01:03:50.720 --> 01:03:51.680
where if you're not

01:03:51.680 --> 01:03:52.240
logged in,

01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:52.780
what you can do

01:03:52.780 --> 01:03:54.020
is set up a redirect,

01:03:54.300 --> 01:03:55.380
a bypasser filters,

01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:57.300
and basically you can

01:03:57.300 --> 01:03:57.860
redirect people.

01:03:57.860 --> 01:03:58.760
So once you log in

01:03:58.760 --> 01:03:59.560
and then it takes you

01:03:59.560 --> 01:04:00.400
to a phishing site,

01:04:01.600 --> 01:04:02.460
so you could actually

01:04:02.460 --> 01:04:03.060
set it up where it

01:04:03.060 --> 01:04:03.700
just says, you know,

01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:04.400
you log in the first

01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:04.880
time and then it

01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:05.580
shows an error page

01:04:05.580 --> 01:04:06.240
saying, can you log in

01:04:06.240 --> 01:04:06.800
again, you didn't

01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:07.520
enter your password

01:04:07.520 --> 01:04:07.820
right.

01:04:08.820 --> 01:04:09.780
And then that second

01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:10.800
time the attacker

01:04:10.800 --> 01:04:11.380
would steal your

01:04:11.380 --> 01:04:11.940
Gmail account,

01:04:12.020 --> 01:04:12.540
things like that,

01:04:12.580 --> 01:04:13.480
and then just pass you

01:04:13.480 --> 01:04:14.140
right back to Gmail

01:04:14.140 --> 01:04:14.440
again.

01:04:15.680 --> 01:04:16.320
And then you would

01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:16.960
be logged in looking

01:04:16.960 --> 01:04:17.400
at your mail.

01:04:17.680 --> 01:04:18.560
So you would never

01:04:18.560 --> 01:04:19.280
know you left the

01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:20.400
site because you kind

01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:20.880
of didn't.

01:04:22.360 --> 01:04:23.180
So it's kind of

01:04:23.180 --> 01:04:23.500
interesting.

01:04:23.740 --> 01:04:24.720
So that's what I

01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:25.720
call vendors lending a

01:04:25.720 --> 01:04:26.520
hand or institutions

01:04:26.520 --> 01:04:27.360
lending a hand to

01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:27.680
phishers.

01:04:28.420 --> 01:04:29.360
In my book I

01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:29.980
highlight how you

01:04:29.980 --> 01:04:30.660
can do an Amazon

01:04:30.660 --> 01:04:31.980
site without ever

01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:33.100
having a spoof site

01:04:33.100 --> 01:04:33.540
altogether.

01:04:34.520 --> 01:04:35.780
So there's a lot of

01:04:35.780 --> 01:04:36.400
different problems

01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:37.260
with a lot of

01:04:37.260 --> 01:04:37.720
different vendors.

01:04:37.860 --> 01:04:38.420
And about 30

01:04:38.420 --> 01:04:39.100
different banks I've

01:04:39.100 --> 01:04:39.760
counted have the

01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:40.460
similar problems.

01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:43.780
So you just got to

01:04:43.780 --> 01:04:44.560
be very careful and

01:04:44.560 --> 01:04:45.120
the vendors need to

01:04:45.120 --> 01:04:45.740
take responsibility.

01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:46.380
There's things that

01:04:46.380 --> 01:04:46.920
they can do to

01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:47.720
detect phishing and

01:04:47.720 --> 01:04:49.900
prevent phishing and

01:04:49.900 --> 01:04:51.000
definitely not lend

01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:52.340
a hand to phishers.

01:04:54.060 --> 01:04:56.440
So I think my rant's

01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:56.660
over.

01:04:56.660 --> 01:04:58.160
Why don't you

01:04:58.160 --> 01:04:59.140
explain how cross-site

01:04:59.140 --> 01:04:59.820
scripting works?

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:00.540
Because I saw a

01:05:00.540 --> 01:05:01.320
presentation on this

01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:01.840
tour con.

01:05:01.900 --> 01:05:02.260
It was very

01:05:02.260 --> 01:05:02.580
interesting.

01:05:02.780 --> 01:05:03.300
But I think a lot

01:05:03.300 --> 01:05:03.440
of people...

01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:03.880
Oh, you saw

01:05:03.880 --> 01:05:04.540
Brian's little

01:05:04.540 --> 01:05:05.040
thing, yeah.

01:05:06.040 --> 01:05:06.300
Yeah.

01:05:07.100 --> 01:05:07.960
Yeah, cross-site

01:05:07.960 --> 01:05:08.900
scripting is basically

01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:09.580
the concept.

01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:10.940
I don't know if you've

01:05:10.940 --> 01:05:11.660
explained SQL

01:05:11.660 --> 01:05:12.380
injection or if your

01:05:12.380 --> 01:05:13.100
listeners know how

01:05:13.100 --> 01:05:14.080
SQL injection works.

01:05:14.080 --> 01:05:14.520
Well, yeah.

01:05:14.580 --> 01:05:15.220
Let's go over

01:05:15.220 --> 01:05:15.840
basically what's

01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:16.040
equal.

01:05:17.420 --> 01:05:17.860
Yeah, it's

01:05:17.860 --> 01:05:18.580
pro-parameter

01:05:18.580 --> 01:05:19.240
manipulation.

01:05:20.420 --> 01:05:20.640
And it's a

01:05:20.640 --> 01:05:21.220
combination of

01:05:21.220 --> 01:05:21.920
where, you know,

01:05:21.940 --> 01:05:22.900
because of lack of

01:05:22.900 --> 01:05:24.120
input validation, you

01:05:24.120 --> 01:05:25.000
can put in certain

01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:26.160
things like quote,

01:05:26.700 --> 01:05:28.640
back, dick, left,

01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:29.420
right, you know,

01:05:30.160 --> 01:05:30.980
the greater and

01:05:30.980 --> 01:05:32.620
lesser signs and

01:05:32.620 --> 01:05:33.320
things like that.

01:05:33.820 --> 01:05:34.240
And so what will

01:05:34.240 --> 01:05:35.000
happen is if you take

01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:36.000
like apple.com, for

01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:36.820
example, and you go to

01:05:36.820 --> 01:05:37.540
their search engine,

01:05:38.220 --> 01:05:39.580
go ahead and type in

01:05:39.580 --> 01:05:42.520
the strikeout, which

01:05:42.520 --> 01:05:44.000
is in HTML would be

01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:46.960
less than S, greater

01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:48.420
than, and then type

01:05:48.420 --> 01:05:49.000
in test.

01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:49.960
You turn that in,

01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:50.680
you'll see that the

01:05:50.680 --> 01:05:51.680
word test reflected,

01:05:51.820 --> 01:05:52.620
but it's striked out.

01:05:53.320 --> 01:05:54.600
So what's happening is

01:05:54.600 --> 01:05:56.420
it's actually injecting

01:05:56.420 --> 01:05:57.600
your code as the

01:05:57.600 --> 01:05:58.500
query as well.

01:05:58.960 --> 01:05:59.520
And instead of

01:05:59.520 --> 01:06:00.260
actually interpreting

01:06:00.260 --> 01:06:01.380
it and converting it

01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:02.820
to like a filtered

01:06:02.820 --> 01:06:03.880
query and saying,

01:06:04.020 --> 01:06:04.420
hey, you can't do

01:06:04.420 --> 01:06:05.440
that, or it converts

01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:07.740
it to the HTML version

01:06:07.740 --> 01:06:08.660
of the HTML character

01:06:08.660 --> 01:06:09.560
code set, it's

01:06:09.580 --> 01:06:10.600
actually interprets

01:06:10.600 --> 01:06:11.400
it, your browser

01:06:11.400 --> 01:06:12.260
interprets that code

01:06:12.260 --> 01:06:12.980
and executes it.

01:06:13.900 --> 01:06:14.940
So cross-site scripting

01:06:14.940 --> 01:06:15.680
can be very dangerous

01:06:15.680 --> 01:06:16.660
because basically what

01:06:16.660 --> 01:06:17.400
will happen is the

01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:18.740
target site can be an

01:06:18.740 --> 01:06:20.800
enemy to you because a

01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:22.200
hacker or a fisher can

01:06:22.200 --> 01:06:23.140
come along and use the

01:06:23.140 --> 01:06:24.180
target site and gain

01:06:24.180 --> 01:06:25.660
misplaced trust by

01:06:25.660 --> 01:06:26.420
attacking your browser

01:06:26.420 --> 01:06:27.280
and you still think

01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:27.840
you're at the right

01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:28.580
site and it's doing

01:06:28.580 --> 01:06:29.180
the right things.

01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:29.960
Because the problem

01:06:29.960 --> 01:06:31.080
with the web itself is

01:06:31.080 --> 01:06:31.860
it's blind safe.

01:06:31.940 --> 01:06:32.480
When you go to your

01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:33.460
website, you expect it

01:06:33.460 --> 01:06:33.980
to work right.

01:06:34.240 --> 01:06:34.680
If you go to your

01:06:34.680 --> 01:06:35.440
bank, you expect them

01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:36.200
not to be compromised

01:06:36.200 --> 01:06:37.120
and that they're secure

01:06:37.120 --> 01:06:37.880
and that there's nothing

01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:38.620
wrong with their site.

01:06:38.620 --> 01:06:39.480
But you really don't

01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:39.660
know.

01:06:39.720 --> 01:06:40.640
It's like driving out

01:06:40.640 --> 01:06:41.100
every day.

01:06:41.180 --> 01:06:41.860
Every time you go out

01:06:41.860 --> 01:06:42.480
on the highway, you

01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:43.020
don't know what to

01:06:43.020 --> 01:06:43.480
expect.

01:06:44.540 --> 01:06:45.980
So it's the same thing.

01:06:46.700 --> 01:06:47.720
So in that sense,

01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:48.980
cross-site scripting and

01:06:48.980 --> 01:06:49.900
cross-user attacks, I

01:06:49.900 --> 01:06:51.080
might chapter 4 and 5

01:06:51.080 --> 01:06:52.340
get really detailed and

01:06:52.340 --> 01:06:53.980
like there's so many

01:06:53.980 --> 01:06:54.700
different layers of

01:06:54.700 --> 01:06:56.340
HTTP type of attacks.

01:06:56.500 --> 01:06:57.540
But cross-user

01:06:57.540 --> 01:06:58.460
attacks is how I group

01:06:58.460 --> 01:06:58.900
them up.

01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:00.100
What happens is

01:07:00.100 --> 01:07:00.920
basically you're using

01:07:00.920 --> 01:07:01.980
the target server to

01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:02.900
attack the browser.

01:07:02.900 --> 01:07:04.400
So the end user

01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:05.480
basically gets hurt.

01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:06.360
And at the same time,

01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:07.060
it compromises the

01:07:07.060 --> 01:07:07.880
integrity of both the

01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:09.260
target site and the

01:07:09.260 --> 01:07:09.620
browser.

01:07:10.720 --> 01:07:11.360
Does that make sense?

01:07:11.500 --> 01:07:12.200
Hopefully that was a

01:07:12.200 --> 01:07:12.920
decent description.

01:07:13.140 --> 01:07:13.800
Yeah, it makes sense.

01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:14.480
Okay.

01:07:16.180 --> 01:07:18.600
So there's a lot of

01:07:18.600 --> 01:07:19.660
different issues.

01:07:20.100 --> 01:07:20.500
I mean, there's

01:07:20.500 --> 01:07:21.740
obviously redirect attacks.

01:07:21.860 --> 01:07:22.440
I mean, there's so many

01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:23.060
different things you can

01:07:23.060 --> 01:07:23.920
do to people.

01:07:24.040 --> 01:07:25.020
But basically, it's

01:07:25.020 --> 01:07:26.180
client-side attacks.

01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:27.320
So that you're

01:07:27.320 --> 01:07:28.080
basically, you know,

01:07:28.140 --> 01:07:29.180
phishers are going to

01:07:29.180 --> 01:07:30.260
employ these techniques.

01:07:30.580 --> 01:07:31.280
They already do.

01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:32.000
So with the malware

01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:32.620
and the distribution,

01:07:32.780 --> 01:07:34.140
they basically do IE

01:07:34.140 --> 01:07:35.020
exploit code.

01:07:35.320 --> 01:07:36.520
So that basically, you

01:07:36.520 --> 01:07:37.380
know, launches something

01:07:37.380 --> 01:07:38.120
on their computer.

01:07:39.800 --> 01:07:40.080
So.

01:07:42.600 --> 01:07:43.440
Don't be too quiet,

01:07:43.540 --> 01:07:43.740
Strom.

01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:44.260
I get me.

01:07:45.420 --> 01:07:46.160
Well, I mean, no,

01:07:46.240 --> 01:07:47.200
it's very interesting.

01:07:47.380 --> 01:07:48.060
And you know so much

01:07:48.060 --> 01:07:48.800
more about this than I

01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:49.360
do that it's, you

01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:51.080
know, it's...

01:07:51.080 --> 01:07:51.920
Yeah, well.

01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:53.260
I think you do some

01:07:53.260 --> 01:07:53.940
pretty cool stuff.

01:07:54.020 --> 01:07:54.640
You just don't talk

01:07:54.640 --> 01:07:55.220
about all of it.

01:07:55.880 --> 01:07:56.120
Yeah.

01:07:56.540 --> 01:07:57.360
Well, I mean, at least

01:07:57.360 --> 01:07:58.240
not within the context of

01:07:58.240 --> 01:07:58.580
this show.

01:07:58.640 --> 01:07:59.240
There's a lot of stuff

01:07:59.240 --> 01:07:59.960
that I'd love to talk

01:07:59.960 --> 01:08:00.160
about.

01:08:00.160 --> 01:08:01.400
But, uh...

01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:02.660
Yeah, you want to

01:08:02.660 --> 01:08:03.240
keep your job.

01:08:03.340 --> 01:08:03.640
No, I'm just kidding.

01:08:05.180 --> 01:08:05.980
Yeah, my job is...

01:08:05.980 --> 01:08:08.040
I like the ROI that I

01:08:08.040 --> 01:08:08.300
live in.

01:08:08.360 --> 01:08:09.120
Risk of incarceration

01:08:09.120 --> 01:08:09.880
is a good thing.

01:08:11.880 --> 01:08:12.640
But, yeah, so

01:08:12.640 --> 01:08:13.900
basically, that's me

01:08:13.900 --> 01:08:14.400
in a spiel.

01:08:15.700 --> 01:08:17.100
I research fishing.

01:08:17.200 --> 01:08:18.080
I track over 53

01:08:18.080 --> 01:08:19.020
fishing groups, and I

01:08:19.020 --> 01:08:19.980
have fun doing it, and

01:08:19.980 --> 01:08:20.720
I do a lot of

01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:21.180
forensics.

01:08:21.400 --> 01:08:22.280
And, you know, if

01:08:22.280 --> 01:08:23.040
you're an ISP out

01:08:23.040 --> 01:08:23.900
there listening, you

01:08:23.900 --> 01:08:24.940
know, feel free to

01:08:24.940 --> 01:08:26.700
send me an email or

01:08:26.700 --> 01:08:27.700
send Strom one to

01:08:27.700 --> 01:08:28.460
say, hey, how can I

01:08:28.460 --> 01:08:28.960
get a hold of that

01:08:28.960 --> 01:08:29.200
guy?

01:08:29.200 --> 01:08:31.160
You know, and, you

01:08:31.160 --> 01:08:32.340
know, just talk to me.

01:08:32.380 --> 01:08:33.080
If you're a bank out

01:08:33.080 --> 01:08:33.860
there, definitely, you

01:08:33.860 --> 01:08:34.640
know, we need to talk

01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:35.320
too, because there's a

01:08:35.320 --> 01:08:35.980
lot of steps that you

01:08:35.980 --> 01:08:36.600
can do to help your

01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:38.540
customers and keep your

01:08:38.540 --> 01:08:39.300
image since you're

01:08:39.300 --> 01:08:40.340
worried about it, you

01:08:40.340 --> 01:08:40.520
know.

01:08:41.040 --> 01:08:41.720
But that's...

01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:42.360
I'm just going to tell

01:08:42.360 --> 01:08:42.980
it how it is.

01:08:43.540 --> 01:08:44.480
Anti-phishing toolbars

01:08:44.480 --> 01:08:45.360
don't work, so don't

01:08:45.360 --> 01:08:46.180
bother buying them.

01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:47.700
People who, you know,

01:08:47.940 --> 01:08:48.920
know what phishing is

01:08:48.920 --> 01:08:49.780
aren't the problem, and

01:08:49.780 --> 01:08:50.440
it's not going to lower

01:08:50.440 --> 01:08:51.240
any numbers because you

01:08:51.240 --> 01:08:52.180
already know what it is.

01:08:52.980 --> 01:08:53.760
All they do is

01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:54.780
basically make more

01:08:54.780 --> 01:08:55.500
money for the vendors

01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:56.340
so that they can feed it

01:08:56.340 --> 01:08:57.380
to IDS systems that

01:08:57.380 --> 01:08:58.440
also charge the IDS

01:08:58.440 --> 01:08:59.100
vendors, so they're

01:08:59.100 --> 01:09:00.260
basically just using you

01:09:00.260 --> 01:09:01.260
for intelligence and

01:09:01.260 --> 01:09:02.440
information to send to

01:09:02.440 --> 01:09:03.120
them so that they can

01:09:03.120 --> 01:09:03.980
make even more money

01:09:03.980 --> 01:09:04.620
than what you've already

01:09:04.620 --> 01:09:04.920
paid.

01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:07.420
So, you know, there's a

01:09:07.420 --> 01:09:09.260
lot of secure-by-marketing

01:09:09.260 --> 01:09:10.180
companies out there, so

01:09:10.180 --> 01:09:11.320
just be very careful any

01:09:11.320 --> 01:09:12.240
banks that buy anything.

01:09:12.740 --> 01:09:13.520
You know, we do do

01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:14.860
product evaluation, so if

01:09:14.860 --> 01:09:16.100
we, you know, you come to

01:09:16.100 --> 01:09:16.800
us and say, what do you

01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:17.640
think of these products in

01:09:17.640 --> 01:09:18.380
the anti-phishing space,

01:09:18.380 --> 01:09:18.960
we're going to be real

01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:19.960
blunt with you about it.

01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:21.260
And we're not going to,

01:09:21.460 --> 01:09:21.920
you know, we're not

01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:22.540
trying to sell you our

01:09:22.540 --> 01:09:23.440
product or say our

01:09:23.440 --> 01:09:24.000
product's better.

01:09:24.200 --> 01:09:25.020
We believe there are good

01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:27.260
products in the market, but

01:09:27.260 --> 01:09:28.120
we just want people to be

01:09:28.120 --> 01:09:29.200
very careful because those

01:09:29.200 --> 01:09:30.320
guys are fishing for money

01:09:30.320 --> 01:09:31.980
in the same way fishers are

01:09:31.980 --> 01:09:32.560
fishing for your

01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:32.960
information.

01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:35.180
So just be careful out

01:09:35.180 --> 01:09:35.400
there.

01:09:36.460 --> 01:09:37.000
Yeah, if you want to go

01:09:37.000 --> 01:09:39.900
to Lance's site, it's

01:09:39.900 --> 01:09:42.360
www.securescience.net.

01:09:43.380 --> 01:09:44.800
Yeah, com works now, too.

01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:45.620
Yeah, and .com.

01:09:45.660 --> 01:09:46.640
It's pretty bland, and

01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:47.420
we're getting a new site

01:09:47.420 --> 01:09:49.200
set up and stuff, but, you

01:09:49.200 --> 01:09:50.260
know, my book information

01:09:50.260 --> 01:09:51.280
is on the front page if

01:09:51.280 --> 01:09:52.020
you're interested in

01:09:52.020 --> 01:09:52.680
getting a copy.

01:09:52.980 --> 01:09:54.880
Yeah, Fishing Exposed by

01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:57.420
Lance James, it just came

01:09:57.420 --> 01:09:58.400
out, awesome book.

01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:02.520
The list price is $49.95,

01:10:02.700 --> 01:10:03.720
but Amazon has it for how

01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:04.700
much, like $32?

01:10:04.700 --> 01:10:06.760
$32, and BookPool, once

01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:07.720
they get back in stock, had

01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:08.540
it for $28, but they're

01:10:08.540 --> 01:10:09.120
not in stock.

01:10:09.200 --> 01:10:09.880
They sold out pretty

01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:10.220
quickly.

01:10:11.380 --> 01:10:12.360
But you can go also on

01:10:12.360 --> 01:10:12.580
eBay.

01:10:12.740 --> 01:10:13.300
I'm sure there's some

01:10:13.300 --> 01:10:14.160
different vendors out there

01:10:14.160 --> 01:10:15.120
that are selling it, so

01:10:15.120 --> 01:10:17.480
it's a neat book.

01:10:17.600 --> 01:10:18.580
I mean, from my

01:10:18.580 --> 01:10:19.640
perspective, I'm glad that I

01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:20.420
got the information out

01:10:20.420 --> 01:10:20.540
there.

01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:21.540
Books like that, more

01:10:21.540 --> 01:10:22.380
books need to be written

01:10:22.380 --> 01:10:23.500
like this, in the sense

01:10:23.500 --> 01:10:26.200
of, you know, it has its

01:10:26.200 --> 01:10:26.500
market.

01:10:26.620 --> 01:10:27.300
I didn't sit there and

01:10:27.300 --> 01:10:29.120
go, hey, this is a

01:10:29.120 --> 01:10:31.220
fishing site, this is what

01:10:31.220 --> 01:10:32.080
fishing is, because anybody

01:10:32.080 --> 01:10:32.840
who's buying this book

01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:33.580
already knows what that

01:10:33.580 --> 01:10:33.960
is, because they're

01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:34.800
dealing with it already.

01:10:35.340 --> 01:10:36.340
And the people that get

01:10:36.340 --> 01:10:37.200
victimized aren't buying

01:10:37.200 --> 01:10:37.880
the book anyways, because

01:10:37.880 --> 01:10:38.540
they don't know they were

01:10:38.540 --> 01:10:39.040
victimized.

01:10:39.500 --> 01:10:39.660
Right.

01:10:40.040 --> 01:10:41.920
This book jumps right

01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:42.520
into the meat of the

01:10:42.520 --> 01:10:42.720
matter.

01:10:43.420 --> 01:10:44.420
Yeah, law enforcement

01:10:44.420 --> 01:10:45.380
programmers, security

01:10:45.380 --> 01:10:46.520
professionals, you guys are

01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:47.200
the ones who want to buy

01:10:47.200 --> 01:10:47.700
this book.

01:10:48.400 --> 01:10:51.440
You know, it's not really,

01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:52.660
you know, for the faint at

01:10:52.660 --> 01:10:53.560
heart on technology.

01:10:53.780 --> 01:10:54.700
It's pretty heavy duty.

01:10:55.480 --> 01:10:56.460
So, and it'll give you a

01:10:56.460 --> 01:10:57.480
lot of techniques to

01:10:57.480 --> 01:10:58.600
basically keep track of

01:10:58.600 --> 01:10:59.500
fissures, and, you know,

01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:00.660
I kind of spill my beans

01:11:00.660 --> 01:11:00.960
in there.

01:11:01.540 --> 01:11:02.140
At the same time,

01:11:02.180 --> 01:11:03.000
Microsoft made a comment,

01:11:03.100 --> 01:11:03.920
they go, you do a great

01:11:03.920 --> 01:11:04.760
job of holding on to your

01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:05.700
trade secrets while still

01:11:05.700 --> 01:11:06.620
remaining detailed.

01:11:06.700 --> 01:11:08.540
I'm like, well, $50 I

01:11:08.540 --> 01:11:09.740
can, you know, I'm not

01:11:09.740 --> 01:11:10.520
going to sell myself to

01:11:10.520 --> 01:11:11.740
Microsoft for $50.

01:11:11.740 --> 01:11:15.780
You know, but, yeah, so

01:11:15.780 --> 01:11:16.760
it's a very detailed book,

01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:17.600
and I really hope that

01:11:17.600 --> 01:11:19.000
some people who are into

01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:19.820
this or want to do more

01:11:19.820 --> 01:11:21.380
research into it, check it

01:11:21.380 --> 01:11:23.440
out, and, you know, and

01:11:23.440 --> 01:11:24.440
feel free to contact me

01:11:24.440 --> 01:11:25.260
any time, and if you have

01:11:25.260 --> 01:11:26.020
any questions about the

01:11:26.020 --> 01:11:27.300
book, I think Singres,

01:11:27.380 --> 01:11:28.300
the publishing company,

01:11:28.380 --> 01:11:30.300
also has an about, a

01:11:30.300 --> 01:11:31.420
contact the author page,

01:11:31.440 --> 01:11:32.360
so you can do like a

01:11:32.360 --> 01:11:33.780
solutions worksheet and,

01:11:33.780 --> 01:11:34.660
you know, contact me

01:11:34.660 --> 01:11:35.440
through them as well.

01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:35.840
Yeah.

01:11:36.220 --> 01:11:37.400
Your email address is,

01:11:37.420 --> 01:11:37.760
do you want to give

01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:38.280
that out on the air?

01:11:38.700 --> 01:11:39.580
Well, I'll give out

01:11:39.580 --> 01:11:40.060
info at

01:11:40.060 --> 01:11:40.960
SecureScience.net, it

01:11:40.960 --> 01:11:41.460
will get to me.

01:11:41.560 --> 01:11:42.000
Yeah, info at

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:43.280
SecureScience.net, or

01:11:43.280 --> 01:11:45.480
if you, if you just

01:11:45.480 --> 01:11:46.260
email us at

01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:47.520
BinRevRadio, and it's

01:11:47.520 --> 01:11:49.200
for Lance, we will, we

01:11:49.200 --> 01:11:50.020
will gladly forward it

01:11:50.020 --> 01:11:50.260
on.

01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:52.100
I do have a top-level

01:11:52.100 --> 01:11:52.920
domain email address

01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:53.600
that I'll hand out.

01:11:53.880 --> 01:11:54.140
Oh?

01:11:54.340 --> 01:11:56.380
FL at WS, flaws.

01:11:57.260 --> 01:11:58.460
SL at WS?

01:11:59.100 --> 01:12:00.720
Yeah, yeah, FL at WS,

01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:01.300
that's Frank,

01:12:01.400 --> 01:12:02.500
Oh, flaws, flaws,

01:12:02.620 --> 01:12:03.060
that's hilarious.

01:12:03.200 --> 01:12:05.340
Yeah, at WS, so it'll

01:12:05.340 --> 01:12:07.400
get to me as well, so.

01:12:07.580 --> 01:12:08.080
That's awesome.

01:12:08.680 --> 01:12:08.920
Yeah.

01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:10.020
If your client

01:12:10.020 --> 01:12:10.800
supports it, it's

01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:11.760
technically, you know,

01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:12.520
not working in a lot

01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:13.220
of clients, which is

01:12:13.220 --> 01:12:14.060
technically a violation

01:12:14.060 --> 01:12:15.460
of RFCs, but whatever.

01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:18.820
Anyways, but yeah, so,

01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:19.900
yeah, feel free to email

01:12:19.900 --> 01:12:20.400
me if you have any

01:12:20.400 --> 01:12:21.720
questions, or, you

01:12:21.720 --> 01:12:22.860
know, or email Strom,

01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:24.580
or, you know, just go

01:12:24.580 --> 01:12:25.740
grab the book and email

01:12:25.740 --> 01:12:26.780
Singres or whatever.

01:12:26.900 --> 01:12:27.780
I think there's a sample

01:12:27.780 --> 01:12:28.740
chapter on Singres'

01:12:28.900 --> 01:12:30.660
site, the chapter one, so,

01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:31.200
you know, it doesn't

01:12:31.200 --> 01:12:31.960
hurt to go check it out

01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:32.740
before buying the book.

01:12:32.800 --> 01:12:33.580
I always like the try

01:12:33.580 --> 01:12:34.440
before you buy as well.

01:12:34.740 --> 01:12:35.600
And if you're really

01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:36.260
into the whole try

01:12:36.260 --> 01:12:36.980
before you buy thing,

01:12:36.980 --> 01:12:38.480
there's always the age-old

01:12:38.480 --> 01:12:39.420
option of going to

01:12:39.420 --> 01:12:41.160
Amazon, or sorry, going

01:12:41.160 --> 01:12:42.420
to Barnes & Noble, and

01:12:42.420 --> 01:12:43.280
just taking the book and

01:12:43.280 --> 01:12:44.900
sitting in the aisle and

01:12:44.900 --> 01:12:45.720
reading the whole thing.

01:12:46.760 --> 01:12:47.880
Yeah, and then supporting

01:12:47.880 --> 01:12:49.080
the author and buying it

01:12:49.080 --> 01:12:49.440
anyway.

01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:50.520
Yeah, buy it anyway.

01:12:51.580 --> 01:12:52.360
No, but yeah.

01:12:52.700 --> 01:12:54.280
No, but either way, I hope

01:12:54.280 --> 01:12:55.220
people enjoy the book, and I

01:12:55.220 --> 01:12:56.640
thank you, Strom, for having

01:12:56.640 --> 01:12:58.080
me on the show regarding the

01:12:58.080 --> 01:12:58.200
book.

01:12:58.460 --> 01:13:00.220
Hey, I thank you very much

01:13:00.220 --> 01:13:00.920
for coming on the show.

01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:01.840
This makes it really

01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:03.620
interesting, and it's been a

01:13:03.620 --> 01:13:04.520
very interesting technical

01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:04.860
show.

01:13:06.300 --> 01:13:07.680
Yeah, well, you know.

01:13:08.480 --> 01:13:09.840
Yeah, I mean, if people

01:13:09.840 --> 01:13:10.700
need me to slow down, they

01:13:10.700 --> 01:13:11.440
can call in and say, hey,

01:13:11.480 --> 01:13:12.040
man, slow down.

01:13:12.660 --> 01:13:12.860
Yeah.

01:13:12.940 --> 01:13:13.740
But I figure the people

01:13:13.740 --> 01:13:14.560
listening to the show are

01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:18.500
pretty aware of, you know,

01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:19.940
the problem at the minimum

01:13:19.940 --> 01:13:21.220
and pretty technically

01:13:21.220 --> 01:13:21.740
capable.

01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:23.780
Yeah, and if people actually

01:13:23.780 --> 01:13:25.100
have phishing questions that

01:13:25.100 --> 01:13:26.960
they send, for those of you

01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:28.200
listening, if you want to

01:13:28.200 --> 01:13:29.500
email us and ask your phishing

01:13:29.500 --> 01:13:30.680
questions, we will forward

01:13:30.680 --> 01:13:31.540
them on to Lance.

01:13:32.620 --> 01:13:33.460
You get them answered, yeah.

01:13:33.460 --> 01:13:34.580
Yeah, and answer them on

01:13:34.580 --> 01:13:35.360
the air next week.

01:13:36.020 --> 01:13:36.660
Yeah, no problem.

01:13:37.120 --> 01:13:38.340
So, cool.

01:13:38.400 --> 01:13:39.240
Well, I think we're going to

01:13:39.240 --> 01:13:40.420
start wrapping things up.

01:13:41.080 --> 01:13:41.520
Let's see.

01:13:41.960 --> 01:13:42.400
Announcements.

01:13:42.580 --> 01:13:43.260
I don't have any

01:13:43.260 --> 01:13:43.680
announcements.

01:13:44.900 --> 01:13:45.460
Let me think.

01:13:46.180 --> 01:13:47.200
Yeah, no announcements this

01:13:47.200 --> 01:13:47.380
week.

01:13:47.400 --> 01:13:48.100
I have an announcement.

01:13:48.660 --> 01:13:49.220
Announce away?

01:13:49.240 --> 01:13:50.400
I got a rabbit, and he

01:13:50.400 --> 01:13:50.920
loves me.

01:13:51.980 --> 01:13:52.760
A rabbit.

01:13:53.980 --> 01:13:54.340
Huh?

01:13:54.640 --> 01:13:55.220
A rabbit.

01:13:56.020 --> 01:13:57.140
Yeah, no, it's a little

01:13:57.140 --> 01:13:57.620
baby rabbit.

01:13:57.760 --> 01:13:58.580
He loves me, or he.

01:13:58.680 --> 01:13:59.160
I can't tell you.

01:13:59.220 --> 01:14:00.320
You can't really tell, but...

01:14:00.320 --> 01:14:02.500
Is it the deadly killer

01:14:02.500 --> 01:14:03.940
rabbit of, I forget the

01:14:03.940 --> 01:14:04.080
name.

01:14:04.080 --> 01:14:04.720
Actually, it was funny,

01:14:04.780 --> 01:14:05.540
because yesterday I was

01:14:05.540 --> 01:14:06.640
like annoying it, like

01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:07.820
somehow, I think I was just

01:14:07.820 --> 01:14:08.660
playing around, and I don't

01:14:08.660 --> 01:14:09.420
know if it was playing or

01:14:09.420 --> 01:14:10.580
not, but I got to the

01:14:10.580 --> 01:14:11.280
point where usually it's

01:14:11.280 --> 01:14:12.160
nice and soft and gentle

01:14:12.160 --> 01:14:13.180
and like sniff you out and

01:14:13.180 --> 01:14:13.340
stuff.

01:14:13.420 --> 01:14:14.040
The minute I put my

01:14:14.040 --> 01:14:14.720
finger next to it, it

01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:15.360
would do this thing where

01:14:15.360 --> 01:14:16.240
it clawed at me.

01:14:16.660 --> 01:14:17.220
I thought that was

01:14:17.220 --> 01:14:17.620
hilarious.

01:14:17.820 --> 01:14:18.700
I was like, whoa, that's

01:14:18.700 --> 01:14:19.460
cool, like you're

01:14:19.460 --> 01:14:20.140
defending yourself.

01:14:20.140 --> 01:14:21.400
But I think it was just

01:14:21.400 --> 01:14:22.160
like playing around, and

01:14:22.160 --> 01:14:22.760
it was trying to play

01:14:22.760 --> 01:14:23.100
around.

01:14:23.380 --> 01:14:23.980
You know, we may have

01:14:23.980 --> 01:14:25.500
had a misunderstanding, but

01:14:25.500 --> 01:14:27.560
you know, there's my

01:14:27.560 --> 01:14:28.360
announcement for the

01:14:28.360 --> 01:14:28.640
week.

01:14:29.220 --> 01:14:29.960
Well, behind the

01:14:29.960 --> 01:14:30.140
rabbit.

01:14:30.220 --> 01:14:30.700
There's only one

01:14:30.700 --> 01:14:31.180
announcement.

01:14:32.080 --> 01:14:32.840
It is the rabbit.

01:14:33.600 --> 01:14:33.960
Sorry.

01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:36.000
I had to do something

01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:36.460
like that.

01:14:37.060 --> 01:14:37.420
Crazy.

01:14:38.700 --> 01:14:39.080
Do you have any

01:14:39.080 --> 01:14:39.380
shouts?

01:14:40.340 --> 01:14:41.060
Shout outs.

01:14:41.580 --> 01:14:42.360
Everybody who went to

01:14:42.360 --> 01:14:43.960
my party, you guys rule.

01:14:44.820 --> 01:14:45.620
Tom, you rule.

01:14:45.920 --> 01:14:46.740
Thanks for shout out to

01:14:46.740 --> 01:14:47.660
you for bringing me on the

01:14:47.660 --> 01:14:48.340
show in the first place.

01:14:48.340 --> 01:14:51.400
Lucky225, you rule, and

01:14:51.400 --> 01:14:51.960
we're going to get you

01:14:51.960 --> 01:14:52.320
somewhere.

01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:54.800
And then Josh

01:14:54.800 --> 01:14:55.980
Bishaz, just because I

01:14:55.980 --> 01:14:57.460
like to shout out to him

01:14:57.460 --> 01:14:58.080
because I know he loves

01:14:58.080 --> 01:14:58.260
it.

01:15:00.100 --> 01:15:01.100
Let's see, who else?

01:15:01.640 --> 01:15:03.280
My wife, if I can, just

01:15:03.280 --> 01:15:03.920
because she's cool.

01:15:04.520 --> 01:15:04.680
Great.

01:15:06.680 --> 01:15:07.600
And hot, too, as you

01:15:07.600 --> 01:15:07.780
notice.

01:15:08.900 --> 01:15:09.860
Let's see, what else?

01:15:11.260 --> 01:15:13.000
Everybody just in 2600, all

01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:13.980
around the world, everybody

01:15:13.980 --> 01:15:15.160
involved in BinRev,

01:15:15.500 --> 01:15:16.880
everybody involved in the

01:15:16.880 --> 01:15:17.420
hacker scene.

01:15:17.580 --> 01:15:18.260
Just, you know, keep it

01:15:18.260 --> 01:15:19.160
real and keep doing the

01:15:19.160 --> 01:15:19.620
thing because you're

01:15:19.620 --> 01:15:20.800
keeping the technology in

01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:21.320
check and that's

01:15:21.320 --> 01:15:21.620
important.

01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:22.400
There you go.

01:15:23.200 --> 01:15:23.480
Cool.

01:15:23.980 --> 01:15:24.820
I'm going to give shout

01:15:24.820 --> 01:15:26.360
outs also to Josh for

01:15:26.360 --> 01:15:27.420
holding me up this weekend

01:15:27.420 --> 01:15:28.440
so I can go to your

01:15:28.440 --> 01:15:28.700
party.

01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:31.100
And shout to Lucky because

01:15:31.100 --> 01:15:32.320
Lucky's cool and I had

01:15:32.320 --> 01:15:34.580
to, he actually, I don't

01:15:34.580 --> 01:15:35.280
know if he's going to kill

01:15:35.280 --> 01:15:36.180
me for announcing this on

01:15:36.180 --> 01:15:36.700
the show, but he got

01:15:36.700 --> 01:15:37.780
extraordinarily drunk at

01:15:37.780 --> 01:15:38.200
your party.

01:15:38.900 --> 01:15:39.680
Oh, yeah, he did.

01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:40.840
Can I imitate him?

01:15:41.100 --> 01:15:41.600
Can I imitate him?

01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:42.220
I've got to make fun of

01:15:42.220 --> 01:15:42.420
him.

01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:44.080
Sure, go ahead, go ahead.

01:15:44.180 --> 01:15:45.600
Okay, he's hitting on this

01:15:45.600 --> 01:15:47.120
chick and she's like the

01:15:47.120 --> 01:15:48.140
catering director or

01:15:48.140 --> 01:15:48.980
whatever, she was cute,

01:15:49.100 --> 01:15:50.900
you know, but he's all,

01:15:51.200 --> 01:15:52.640
hey, do you want to be

01:15:52.640 --> 01:15:53.120
Seattle?

01:15:54.720 --> 01:15:55.460
Do you want to, she's

01:15:55.460 --> 01:15:56.040
like, ha ha.

01:15:56.860 --> 01:15:57.900
So whatever, do you want

01:15:57.900 --> 01:15:59.140
to be Seattle means Lucky.

01:15:59.400 --> 01:16:00.280
Props to you, they're still

01:16:00.280 --> 01:16:01.380
trying to keep it going.

01:16:02.160 --> 01:16:03.440
It was hilarious though.

01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:04.600
Yeah, actually we were

01:16:04.600 --> 01:16:05.700
walking back from your

01:16:05.700 --> 01:16:07.860
party to the car and,

01:16:07.940 --> 01:16:10.320
oh, he's messaging me now

01:16:10.320 --> 01:16:11.120
saying ha ha ha.

01:16:11.120 --> 01:16:13.540
Uh, he's hating us now.

01:16:13.740 --> 01:16:14.520
Yeah, we were walking

01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:14.960
back.

01:16:15.740 --> 01:16:18.960
Um, he's fearing, he says.

01:16:19.340 --> 01:16:19.740
Yeah.

01:16:20.120 --> 01:16:22.560
Yeah, he was walking

01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:22.800
back.

01:16:22.860 --> 01:16:24.140
We might have one last

01:16:24.140 --> 01:16:24.780
call in quickly.

01:16:25.280 --> 01:16:26.140
Uh, he was walking back

01:16:26.140 --> 01:16:27.720
from the car, or to the

01:16:27.720 --> 01:16:29.040
car and he's like, we're

01:16:29.040 --> 01:16:29.700
walking through the park

01:16:29.700 --> 01:16:30.660
garage, so he's parked at

01:16:30.660 --> 01:16:31.600
the mall next to where you

01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:33.720
had your party and he's

01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:34.460
like saying to all these

01:16:34.460 --> 01:16:35.520
girls and the car's open

01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:37.000
windows, I'm way out of

01:16:37.000 --> 01:16:37.800
your league.

01:16:38.140 --> 01:16:39.200
Oh, I know, I know.

01:16:39.200 --> 01:16:40.100
It was like staggering

01:16:40.100 --> 01:16:40.380
around.

01:16:40.620 --> 01:16:41.780
Nearly like knocked a fish

01:16:41.780 --> 01:16:43.240
out of Josh's hands, you

01:16:43.240 --> 01:16:45.480
know, and actually at one

01:16:45.480 --> 01:16:46.880
point I had threatened him

01:16:46.880 --> 01:16:47.620
and I said, you know,

01:16:48.320 --> 01:16:51.420
Lucky, if you, um, you

01:16:51.420 --> 01:16:53.400
know, if you don't shut up

01:16:53.400 --> 01:16:55.100
with this, I'm, you know,

01:16:55.120 --> 01:16:56.260
I'm going to hit you on

01:16:56.260 --> 01:16:56.880
the head with the book

01:16:56.880 --> 01:16:57.760
and he didn't, so I took

01:16:57.760 --> 01:16:58.860
your book and I whacked

01:16:58.860 --> 01:16:59.460
him on the head pretty

01:16:59.460 --> 01:16:59.660
hard.

01:16:59.800 --> 01:17:00.360
Didn't it have a great

01:17:00.360 --> 01:17:01.220
whopping sound though?

01:17:01.340 --> 01:17:01.940
It did.

01:17:02.040 --> 01:17:03.500
It made like this awesome

01:17:03.500 --> 01:17:04.640
whacking sound that like

01:17:04.640 --> 01:17:05.580
reverberated throughout the

01:17:05.580 --> 01:17:06.180
parking garage.

01:17:06.300 --> 01:17:07.520
It was loud as hell.

01:17:07.600 --> 01:17:08.280
It's such a great sound.

01:17:08.280 --> 01:17:09.440
My wife hit me with it.

01:17:09.520 --> 01:17:11.640
She goes, wow, you wrote a

01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:12.720
book that makes a whopping

01:17:12.720 --> 01:17:13.320
sound.

01:17:13.400 --> 01:17:14.680
I should hit myself on the

01:17:14.680 --> 01:17:15.760
head with it just to, just

01:17:15.760 --> 01:17:16.840
hear what it sounds like.

01:17:16.900 --> 01:17:17.980
So just for demonstration,

01:17:18.480 --> 01:17:20.700
that's an awesome sound and

01:17:20.700 --> 01:17:21.320
I have a headache.

01:17:22.220 --> 01:17:22.700
Yeah, I know.

01:17:22.760 --> 01:17:23.760
It's, it's, it's, it's hard

01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:25.240
to do over a radio, but you

01:17:25.240 --> 01:17:27.280
know, um, yeah, it's such a

01:17:27.280 --> 01:17:28.920
cool sound and I'm like, it's

01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:29.940
surreal to me that I actually

01:17:29.940 --> 01:17:30.840
wrote this thing because you

01:17:30.840 --> 01:17:31.840
do everything in chapters so

01:17:31.840 --> 01:17:32.700
you don't think about the time

01:17:32.700 --> 01:17:33.380
it takes or whatever.

01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:35.320
But once it's in like, you

01:17:35.320 --> 01:17:36.900
know, book form, you're just

01:17:36.900 --> 01:17:37.660
tripping on how much you

01:17:37.660 --> 01:17:38.220
actually wrote.

01:17:38.280 --> 01:17:39.340
You're like, holy crap.

01:17:39.640 --> 01:17:39.800
Yeah.

01:17:39.860 --> 01:17:40.920
How much, how long did it

01:17:40.920 --> 01:17:41.660
take you to write out of

01:17:41.660 --> 01:17:42.140
curiosity?

01:17:42.500 --> 01:17:43.640
I, well, the contract was for

01:17:43.640 --> 01:17:45.600
three months, but you know, it

01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:46.880
took like five to six because

01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:48.040
of the fact that I have a real

01:17:48.040 --> 01:17:48.420
life.

01:17:49.460 --> 01:17:49.740
Yeah.

01:17:49.940 --> 01:17:50.460
I can imagine.

01:17:50.460 --> 01:17:52.340
So, yeah, so I told them, I said,

01:17:52.380 --> 01:17:53.060
you know what, and they were a

01:17:53.060 --> 01:17:53.600
little cool about it.

01:17:53.620 --> 01:17:54.180
They didn't really care.

01:17:54.220 --> 01:17:55.060
They just do that because they

01:17:55.060 --> 01:17:56.060
want to be first to market and

01:17:56.060 --> 01:17:56.680
they still are.

01:17:56.780 --> 01:17:57.640
I mean, there's no other book

01:17:57.640 --> 01:17:58.380
like this on the market.

01:17:58.580 --> 01:17:59.920
So there's one other fishing

01:17:59.920 --> 01:18:01.020
book and I'm not going to

01:18:01.020 --> 01:18:02.100
comment, but I've heard from

01:18:02.100 --> 01:18:02.560
other people.

01:18:02.740 --> 01:18:04.340
It's, you know, it's not

01:18:04.340 --> 01:18:05.840
fearing, as Lucky would say.

01:18:05.840 --> 01:18:10.920
So, but, yeah, so, yeah.

01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:11.920
Oh, you had another call.

01:18:12.480 --> 01:18:14.380
Well, we have someone who says

01:18:14.380 --> 01:18:15.480
he's going to call in, but he

01:18:15.480 --> 01:18:16.740
hasn't even passed through the

01:18:16.740 --> 01:18:17.660
screener yet, so.

01:18:18.020 --> 01:18:19.500
Yeah, he used to IMD and said,

01:18:19.580 --> 01:18:21.720
I don't remember hitting, getting

01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:23.540
hit on the head when I was junk

01:18:23.540 --> 01:18:24.420
or anything about Seattle.

01:18:26.280 --> 01:18:27.700
Yeah, and he messaged me, I fear

01:18:27.700 --> 01:18:28.160
Seattle.

01:18:28.160 --> 01:18:32.340
I think he feared the chick he

01:18:32.340 --> 01:18:33.340
was talking to and he lost his

01:18:33.340 --> 01:18:33.620
words.

01:18:34.180 --> 01:18:34.920
Yeah, yeah.

01:18:35.480 --> 01:18:37.100
Oh, I'm going to announce that

01:18:37.100 --> 01:18:38.740
TWAT Radio is back up, if I

01:18:38.740 --> 01:18:39.580
would please announce it.

01:18:39.660 --> 01:18:42.460
So, yeah, TWAT Radio is back for

01:18:42.460 --> 01:18:43.300
all of you people who are

01:18:43.300 --> 01:18:44.340
wondering about that and

01:18:44.340 --> 01:18:47.740
randomly, yeah.

01:18:48.100 --> 01:18:48.560
So, anyway.

01:18:48.880 --> 01:18:49.700
Oh, I have an announcement.

01:18:50.020 --> 01:18:50.900
Yeah, announce away.

01:18:51.540 --> 01:18:52.940
Yeah, Google works.

01:18:53.120 --> 01:18:53.500
No, just kidding.

01:18:53.780 --> 01:18:54.960
No, my real announcement is I

01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:56.440
actually found something that's

01:18:56.440 --> 01:18:57.080
kind of scary.

01:18:57.080 --> 01:18:58.960
In IE and Netscape, you can

01:18:58.960 --> 01:19:00.280
actually, there's like a

01:19:00.280 --> 01:19:03.840
default clipboard reader.

01:19:04.420 --> 01:19:05.840
So, what happens is in IE, you

01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:07.180
can actually pull people's

01:19:07.180 --> 01:19:08.240
clipboard information, so if

01:19:08.240 --> 01:19:09.260
you ever clipboard your credit

01:19:09.260 --> 01:19:10.380
card and stuff, you might want

01:19:10.380 --> 01:19:11.140
to clear it before you get

01:19:11.140 --> 01:19:13.200
online for those IE users.

01:19:13.280 --> 01:19:14.020
Hopefully, there's not many

01:19:14.020 --> 01:19:14.800
listening to this show.

01:19:15.020 --> 01:19:16.020
Yeah, well, I'm an avid

01:19:16.020 --> 01:19:16.960
Firefox user here.

01:19:17.320 --> 01:19:18.440
Yeah, I figure most of the

01:19:18.440 --> 01:19:19.140
people listening to this show

01:19:19.140 --> 01:19:20.860
might be, but just letting you

01:19:20.860 --> 01:19:22.400
know if you, you know, were

01:19:22.400 --> 01:19:23.860
curious, if you do use Netscape,

01:19:23.940 --> 01:19:24.780
it works in Netscape as well.

01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:25.740
There's a way to turn it off,

01:19:25.740 --> 01:19:27.140
but I'm too lazy to announce

01:19:27.140 --> 01:19:29.020
that part next week on

01:19:29.020 --> 01:19:29.720
BIMREAD.

01:19:30.400 --> 01:19:31.700
Next week on, anyway, our

01:19:31.700 --> 01:19:32.600
side of the week is

01:19:32.600 --> 01:19:34.100
securescience.net.

01:19:35.360 --> 01:19:35.940
Oh, cool.

01:19:36.160 --> 01:19:39.500
Yeah, go there, learn, enjoy,

01:19:39.620 --> 01:19:41.800
and buy the book.

01:19:43.060 --> 01:19:43.380
Yeah.

01:19:43.700 --> 01:19:44.560
We're not here...

01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:45.120
If you're involved in

01:19:45.120 --> 01:19:46.560
tracking phishing, send me an

01:19:46.560 --> 01:19:47.360
email, like if you've ever

01:19:47.360 --> 01:19:48.120
gotten any stuff where you

01:19:48.120 --> 01:19:49.160
actually had some info on

01:19:49.160 --> 01:19:50.080
like phishing and stuff, and

01:19:50.080 --> 01:19:51.300
I'll put you on my super

01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:51.900
secret list.

01:19:51.900 --> 01:19:52.940
Sweet.

01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:54.680
Yeah, we're not here to

01:19:54.680 --> 01:19:55.620
pimp anything majorly

01:19:55.620 --> 01:19:57.120
commercial, but Lance...

01:19:57.120 --> 01:19:57.660
No, it's all free.

01:19:57.740 --> 01:19:58.480
All the stuff I've talked

01:19:58.480 --> 01:19:59.140
about is free.

01:19:59.660 --> 01:19:59.820
Yeah.

01:20:00.180 --> 01:20:01.560
No, but as far as the book,

01:20:01.640 --> 01:20:02.780
Lance is a cool guy, and he

01:20:02.780 --> 01:20:05.040
deserves your royalty payment,

01:20:05.180 --> 01:20:05.860
so buy the book.

01:20:06.980 --> 01:20:07.300
Yeah.

01:20:07.500 --> 01:20:08.260
It's really, you know, when

01:20:08.260 --> 01:20:08.960
you write a tech book, it

01:20:08.960 --> 01:20:09.700
ain't about the royalties.

01:20:09.820 --> 01:20:11.260
It's just about getting the

01:20:11.260 --> 01:20:12.020
information out there.

01:20:12.100 --> 01:20:13.300
So get the book just because

01:20:13.300 --> 01:20:14.320
you guys want to learn stuff,

01:20:14.400 --> 01:20:14.540
right?

01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:15.940
Yeah, get the book to learn.

01:20:16.140 --> 01:20:16.860
Get the book because

01:20:16.860 --> 01:20:17.660
learning is awesome.

01:20:18.240 --> 01:20:18.780
Yeah, and then the

01:20:18.780 --> 01:20:19.640
publishers can pay me.

01:20:19.640 --> 01:20:22.820
Yeah, as always, you can

01:20:22.820 --> 01:20:24.920
email at radio at

01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:28.760
binrev.com, and our

01:20:28.760 --> 01:20:31.320
closing music tonight is

01:20:31.320 --> 01:20:31.760
something from

01:20:31.760 --> 01:20:32.620
epitonic.com.

01:20:32.740 --> 01:20:34.460
It's called Mr. Kennedy by

01:20:34.460 --> 01:20:36.660
The Soft Boys, and it

01:20:36.660 --> 01:20:37.500
seems like a pretty cool

01:20:37.500 --> 01:20:37.860
song.

01:20:40.860 --> 01:20:41.900
Anything else you want to

01:20:41.900 --> 01:20:43.260
announce before we go?

01:20:44.500 --> 01:20:45.280
I'm pregnant.

01:20:45.500 --> 01:20:45.780
Just kidding.

01:20:45.880 --> 01:20:46.380
No, I don't know.

01:20:47.380 --> 01:20:48.540
No, everybody, thanks again

01:20:48.540 --> 01:20:48.960
for listening.

01:20:49.640 --> 01:20:50.320
Yeah, thank you for

01:20:50.320 --> 01:20:51.900
listening, and we'll see

01:20:51.900 --> 01:20:52.880
you next week.

01:20:53.880 --> 01:20:56.720
Same hack time, same hack

01:20:56.720 --> 01:20:57.320
channel.

01:20:57.320 --> 01:21:11.840
Coming into Harrisburg, never

01:21:11.840 --> 01:21:15.120
seen a body look so dense.

01:21:18.120 --> 01:21:22.600
Tell me, Mr. Kennedy, have you

01:21:22.600 --> 01:21:25.280
ever seen the clouds so dense?

01:21:29.280 --> 01:21:33.340
Come into Cleveland, riding in the

01:21:33.340 --> 01:21:35.180
van with Zeppardale.

01:21:35.240 --> 01:21:45.280
Tell me, Mr. Kennedy, have you ever seen the clouds so dense?

01:21:45.280 --> 01:21:51.220
Maybe it'll rain

01:21:51.220 --> 01:21:53.740
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:21:53.740 --> 01:21:58.160
Maybe it'll rain

01:21:58.160 --> 01:22:00.900
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:22:00.900 --> 01:22:05.780
Coming into paradise

01:22:05.780 --> 01:22:10.280
Thinking that I must have been here once

01:22:10.280 --> 01:22:15.880
Me and Mr. Kennedy

01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:21.140
Haven't seen a blade of grass in months

01:22:21.140 --> 01:22:25.960
Maybe it'll rain

01:22:25.960 --> 01:22:28.540
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:22:28.540 --> 01:22:32.960
Maybe it'll rain

01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:36.460
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:22:36.460 --> 01:22:40.180
Here she comes

01:22:40.180 --> 01:22:44.300
Here she comes again

01:22:44.300 --> 01:22:50.260
Here she comes, here she comes, here she comes, here she comes, here she comes

01:22:57.060 --> 01:22:59.540
Coming into Pittsburgh

01:22:59.540 --> 01:23:04.460
Dreaming of a thousand open shops

01:23:04.460 --> 01:23:09.740
Me and Mr. Kennedy

01:23:09.740 --> 01:23:14.440
Stretching out to catch the first few drops

01:23:14.440 --> 01:23:20.180
Tell me, Mr. Kennedy

01:23:20.180 --> 01:23:23.280
Can you make it rain?

01:23:23.680 --> 01:23:25.620
Can you make it rain tonight?

01:23:28.500 --> 01:23:30.300
Maybe it'll rain

01:23:30.300 --> 01:23:33.580
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:23:33.580 --> 01:23:37.240
Maybe it'll rain

01:23:37.240 --> 01:23:40.080
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:23:40.080 --> 01:23:44.140
Maybe it'll rain

01:23:44.140 --> 01:23:47.120
Masked on Won't totally

01:23:50.120 --> 01:23:51.320
kid

01:23:51.520 --> 01:23:54.420
Maybe it'll rain today

01:23:54.420 --> 01:23:56.160
appeared onäus

01:23:56.160 --> 01:23:57.560
My Natalie

01:23:57.560 --> 01:23:58.860
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:23:58.860 --> 01:23:59.480
Maybe it'll rain today

01:23:59.480 --> 01:24:01.180
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:24:01.180 --> 01:24:01.920
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:24:02.920 --> 01:24:05.220
Or two

01:24:07.300 --> 01:24:08.040
Could it rain tonight?

01:24:08.040 --> 01:24:09.400
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:24:09.400 --> 01:24:09.760
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:24:09.760 --> 01:24:10.740
Maybe it'll rain tonight

01:24:10.740 --> 01:24:12.640
could it burn tonight

01:24:12.640 --> 01:24:42.620
Thank you.

01:24:42.640 --> 01:25:12.620
Thank you.

01:25:12.640 --> 01:25:42.620
Thank you.

01:25:42.640 --> 01:26:12.620
Thank you.

01:26:12.640 --> 01:26:42.620
Thank you.

01:26:42.640 --> 01:27:12.620
Thank you.