This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers.
I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you
in a fat tone.
In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in my six foe.
I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable.
On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo. On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a hero.
In a flash, I'll screw you on burning dreamcasts. You need some ISO? Let me through my hard drive rifle.
Our exchange you could never stifle. In a digital hug, you just caught the love bug.
I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z.
To CG, it's all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely.
You feel that rattle in your bones when I tell you we just hacked out Jones?
And NASDAQ leaves you flat on your back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.
Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.
This is dedicated to the hackers and the criminals.
Serial code, source code, ISO, RAM, SIP, SIP.
Welcome everyone to Binary Revolution Radio.
This is episode 159 and this is the DEF CON wrap-up.
It sings how DEF CON was this past weekend.
And that's kind of a tradition on the Binary Revolution Radio.
And today we have a co-host who's been on the show before, Mr. Low-Tech Mystic.
And he is our engineer for the night, because I don't know how to work these computer machines.
And he and I did not go to DEF CON.
So we found the guy that did, and he's the third host of the show, Mr. Verbal.
Say hello.
Hi, Jess.
How's it going?
This is the fourth season of Binary Revolution Radio.
And we're kind of switching things up this season, because no one has time to, per se, record the show every week.
So be prepared to listen to me ramble on and on and on, trying to stall for time.
But anyway, I didn't get to go to DEF CON this year.
And Mr. Low-Tech and I are starting up a little business, and we don't exactly have paychecks.
So to be financially stable enough to get his ass over there this year, he's going to talk about stuff for us today.
And Mr. Verbal, you've been to DEF CON before, right?
Yes.
I was there for the past three years when he was at the Alexis.
And I went last year.
Go ahead.
Oh, yeah.
So as I was saying, this year they moved it to the Riviera, and it's definitely a bigger venue.
And they actually definitely had more people come.
This year I think there was about 6,000 to 7,000 people who showed up.
And they actually ran out of the badges for this year, and they had to start giving people badges for the last year,
like crappy little pieces of cardboard they printed, you know, like whatever they can steal off from.
I don't know.
But it was crazy.
There was people everywhere.
That is awesome.
So I imagine there were some hijinks of people forging badges, right?
I actually didn't see too many of that.
Actually, so let me talk about the badges a little bit.
If you know or saw someone who went, then you'll know that their badge this year has a little circuit on it.
And there are two LEDs who are the eyes for a smiley face.
And on the back there's a button, and if you press it, they would light up.
And then if you press it again and again, there were several different styles of blinking that were involved.
And a lot of people ended up hacking that, and that ended up being a contest.
It was pretty cool.
So I think one guy made his into a blowtorch.
So if you, like, pressed it, then, like, flames would come out.
And some other people did some other very neat things with it, too.
That is awesome.
So you're going to put your badge up on eBay and see if you can sell it to somebody?
No, no, I don't think so.
I'll probably get, like, five bucks for it.
But, no, I actually got into a habit, as with most people, I assume,
of keeping my badges, you know, just as a souvenir.
I think Mr. Low-Tech has a collection of them hanging from the ceiling fans in his room.
Yeah, like, you always see people who go to the cons who, like, wear all the badges they had.
And, you know, their neck has, like, 12 of them.
And, like, they're wearing, like, a shirt from DEF CON 1.
So, you know, I guess it has sentimental value for some people.
We went to Birmingham a few weeks ago.
Or not Birmingham, Huntsville, Alabama.
To visit the people over at Digium.
And in Mark Spencer's house, he has his collection of badges.
And, like, I thought I had a lot.
But this guy doesn't just, you know, he's not going to the little hacker cons.
He's going to the professional hoity-toity cons.
And he has the largest collection of badges I've ever seen.
It's massive.
Does he have a separate room for them?
No, but he doesn't have a separate room for them.
But his house is decorated like a nerd would truly decorate a house.
There's a big clock made of motherboards.
And it's really cool.
So, my wife would make me have a separate room for all my computer stuff as she's done.
But that's another story.
Well, I went to DEF CON last year.
And we had to wait up in the sun and the heat, you know, 30, 40 minutes to go and see and talk.
And that was one of the things they were trying to fix with moving to the Riviera.
How are the lines this year?
Well, actually, so, the lines were pretty good overall.
But in the beginning, so, okay, so it starts at about 10.
And on the first day on Friday, I went down there and I was going to get a badge tonight.
I got there late the night before I was there.
And so, there's a corridor where all the rooms are for the talks.
And then at the end of that corridor is the start of, like, the capture-the-flag area and the registration area and the vendor area.
And that corridor, I got there about 10.30.
And that place was seriously a clusterfuck.
And I was like, oh, my God, it's going to end up being last year all over again, except slightly air-conditioned.
But as it turns out, they had told the fire department or the fire marshals that the cons started at 10.
And they had misheard them and thought 12 or something like that.
So, instead of coming at 9, they came at 11.
So, they had to push the cons back two hours.
And then everyone was just kind of, like, wedged in, like, the main corridor.
People trying to get in and, like, to get their badges and people trying to come out.
Because, like, you know, half the people knew what was going on and half of them didn't.
So, aside from that, though, there are definitely no lines like the one you had to wait for in the tent.
Like, remember that?
It was, like, the third track.
Like, and they barely had AC and you had to wait outside.
There was none of that.
Everything was indoors and it was much, much nicer.
You know, there were actually rooms, like, hang out in the halls and you didn't have to always be moving.
And, actually, this is the first year that I stayed at the hotel where the car was happening.
And, you know, if you're going or thinking about going, definitely try to get a room at the hotel.
It is much easier.
Because the last couple of years, I stayed at, like, the Sahara, which is all the way.
I stayed at the Sahara last year.
Right, right, right.
And, as you know, it's all the way at the other side of the strip.
And I was like, oh, I'll just take the monorail.
It can't be that bad.
Now, granted, you don't have to walk that much.
But, like, you don't want to be outside in Vegas and August at all.
So, you know, if you stay there, then you can just stay inside for the whole day.
And then if you go out at night, it's much better.
Yeah.
Now, how were the rooms there?
I remember last episode they were talking about the rooms at Hotel Pennsylvania.
How were the rooms at this one?
Oh, it's actually not bad.
I mean, the rooms are definitely better than, like, the Sahara.
And it's actually pretty cheap, too.
So, I registered decently early.
And on Friday, the room was, like, you know, like $80.
And then Saturday, no, I'm sorry.
Thursday, the room was, like, $85.
And then Saturday, the room was, like, $92.
So, I mean, you know, it's comparable to any other place that's on the Strip.
Did you go to the BinRev meetup?
Actually, I did not.
So, Upside Down was there, and he went, and he said it was pretty cool.
Like, they just went to the food court because I think we were going to go to the buffet.
I'm not sure what happened to that.
But he said, you know, like, most of the BinRev people came, and they were just kind of, like, sitting in their own, like, tables because it was, like, a food court.
And Stank was trying to, like, go around and, like, get people talking and stuff.
But overall, it was pretty good, I think, is what he said.
And I actually had some other friends there from, like, you know, from real life, and I ended up having dinner with them instead.
But, yeah, I mean, I heard it.
What's real life?
Huh?
What's real life?
Did you see any titties?
You know, the thing you do when you wake up to when you come home.
Good deal.
Well, enough of this idle chit-chat.
How were the talks?
Oh, yeah.
So, actually, there were a bunch of good talks.
And, like, you know, I would look at the schedule, and I would say, like, okay, you know, make a mental list of the talks I want to go to.
And there were usually only about three or four that I was, like, really interested in.
But this year, the quality of talks is definitely much higher.
Actually, I should probably highlight some of the ones I went to.
So, okay, so on Friday, I'm just going to go through it.
On Friday, at the first talk, the Atlas, who was actually the leader of the winning team, the captain of the winning team for Capture the Flag talk,
on how he got into packing, and, you know, like, the stuff that he did when he first, you know, wanted to, like, look at how Alexis works and, like, look at exploits and stuff.
And, you know, he was basically going through the tools he developed and, like, pitfalls that he had and, like, what techniques he used to start exploiting software and just kind of get into it.
So, definitely, that was good.
And then the one after that, I actually stayed in that room for a while, was a talk called Remote Pair Programming and Test-Driven Development Using Open Source.
That, I actually just stayed in there because it was just right after, and I was, like, checking my email or something.
But that ended up being a really good talk, and it was about, you know, using Open Source software such as, like, BNC and, you know, just, like, Skype or whatever they had to do pair programming.
And, like, I guess that's part of the extreme programming and paradigm, you know, and how they would make really good software with two people who were, you know, not physically at the same location.
And, you know, in addition to that, he just kind of landed on about how to write good code.
So, if, you know, you're interested in coding and kind of, like, adopting some new methodologies, maybe, you know, you're not doing things exactly, you know, the best way.
So, I definitely think, like, going through that talk, you know, will be a good thing for you.
And the other one, actually, is this panel they had.
It was called Internet Ward.
And what it was is they had a panel of, I think, about six people.
And there were four feds, Dan Kaminsky, which is who does the Black Ops talk.
And this other guy, Gotti, and I can't pronounce his last name.
He's this big Russian guy.
And they were talking about, like, how people like the Russian mob and, like, other organized crime people would use the Internet and use technologies such as botnets, phishing, spamming, and all that stuff to make money and, like, basically to steal your money.
And, like, what the government was doing to prevent that.
I mean, that was also very good and very interesting because normally you don't really get a chance to, you know, see all this stuff because it's not in the news or maybe, you know, you don't follow, like, the mainstream computer security news or whatever.
You know, it's nice to just kind of have that presented to you and say, okay, this is what's going on in the world today.
I went and saw Lance James and Lucky 225 talk about fishing at Shmook Island.
I actually didn't go to that one.
But it was very interesting.
You're right with, you know, what's going on behind the scenes, things that we don't see every day.
Like, right.
You know, like, they told you, but, like, they couldn't really give you any specifics, like, the number, the numbers of, like, you know, people doing such and such or, like, you know, how many botnets are there and, like, how big they are.
But, you know, like, you get the idea of what's going on in the world, you know, on a very large scale for people who are not just using, you know, these cool hacker things to, like, play around.
And, like, actually using them for committing organized time and all that stuff.
Yeah.
Totally awesome stuff.
Yeah.
So, I mean, like, I was saying.
We're reverting to the 80s.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, like I was saying, there's just so many, like, much, much better talks on, like, things.
But I mean, things that I personally am more interested in anyway.
But, uh, so there's also Strom's talk.
Strom actually did two talks at DEF CON this year.
One he had was about hacking the FedEx Kinko cards.
They're actually, like, for those who don't know, the Kinko card is actually a smart card.
And, you know, he found, he basically reverse engineered it and he found out what information
is stored on the card and how you can manipulate that and, you know, change, for example, the
dollar value or, like, the kind of card is their special cards, like, you know, an employee
card or whatever, and how you can mess with it.
And that was very interesting.
Um, and, you know, just basically, uh, I lost my place, but that's okay.
And I think, actually, that was it for that day.
I don't know, uh, Drew, do you have anything you wanted to add or any reactions to what I
said?
I don't know, I'm just, uh, it's, it's different when you're doing the show, because
you'll, you'll start talking, and I'm just listening to you like I'm listening to you
on my iPod.
Oh.
And I'm not even thinking about stuff to ask you.
I'm just enjoying listening to the show.
Okay, all right, so I'll just keep talking, because I didn't know if I was, like, um,
monotonous.
I'm a really bad radio host.
I know, you're, you're, you're, you're the show today, buddy.
You just keep talking.
All right.
All right, I'm just going to keep going, then.
Fuck you guys.
Um, that's the motto.
All right, so I'm going to, if you're not sufficiently bored, I'm just going to highlight
a couple other talks, and then we can talk about some other stuff.
Um, so every year, Dan Kaminsky, um, I hope I'm pronouncing the last name right, but, uh,
he does this talk called Black Off, and it's basically, you know, he's a security researcher,
and each year he presents cool shit that he does, um, you know, on his own.
Like, he used to work for Avaya, and he's worked for Cisco and all that stuff, and now
he does, um, Doc's power research, and he's doing some really cool stuff.
Like, for example, last year, if you were there, actually, so you were there, Drew, so did you
remember Dan Kaminsky's talk?
I didn't actually attend that talk.
I wish I had.
Okay.
Yeah, last year, he did the whole thing with DNS, and basically just, like, all the cool
shit you can do with DNS, and export it, and abuse it, just to do some really nice stuff.
And this year, he had kind of, um, a more, a wider variety of topics that he talked about,
and, uh, so I'm just going to go through some of them.
And, um, the main thing he started off with is kind of, like, looking at the state of
SSL usage today, because, like, SSL and TLS is kind of, like, the de facto standard for,
you know, the, um, internet e-commerce sites and, like, all of that stuff.
You know, if you, if you want a, quote, quote, secure connection, then, like, that's what
you use.
So he just kind of, like, pointed out the, the various flaws in, um, the deployment of
SSL, and kind of, like, how you can, you know, exploit certain things that people would
do, and maybe they didn't set it up right, or just kind of, um, you know, basic, uh,
vulnerabilities that are actually in the protocol itself.
Um, so if you want to look at the slides, you know, because I'm not going to repeat this
talk and go into it, but that was really cool.
And, uh, he actually spent the rest of the talk on, uh, something that I don't, personally
don't have too much experience with, but it was, like, um, reverse engineering, um, text
dumps and, like, binaries and stuff, and how he can use certain analysis protocols and,
like, programs and techniques, um, that traditionally hasn't been used for this kind of stuff, but
how he applied it and kind of found out some very interesting things he can do with it.
So one of the things he did is that, um, he would, like, compare a program, like, against
itself and, like, compare it with other programs, and he would make this 2D graph where, like,
two programs or, like, a program with itself is similar, then it would make, like, a dot
on the graph.
So you end up, you know, so you basically just throw these two binary files or, you
know, the one binary file into this program, and you get a graph, and you would see these
little, like, clusters of things that were interesting.
So you would see, like, you know, for example, a diagonal line would be, like, if two programs
were exactly the same, and, you know, if, like, there would be, like, boxes of dots and,
like, different shapes of dots, which that would mean, like, okay, this section of the
program is self-contained, or, like, if, you know, one section of the program would refer
to another one a lot, and then you can tell all these cool things.
So this is, you know, like, he just kind of started doing that, and kind of just brought
that out and saying, like, okay, so what we need now is kind of, like, a way to, you
know, figure out what these things mean.
Like, okay, what exactly does having, you know, like, a rectangle here mean, or, like,
what exactly does having, like, a line that, like, does, like, little bumps here mean, or
whatever.
So just kind of, like, a new way to do that that I think could actually go similar, you
know, so that was really cool.
And so there, okay, so I won't spend the whole time talking about talks, but there
is another...
No, no, no, no, I'm really interested in the talks, actually, because I missed them.
Okay.
So, okay, I'll just go through a couple more.
There was one that Stank and I went to about covert channels in IPv6 and ICNPv6, and he
basically, I mean, it wasn't, like, technically too interesting, but the application was pretty
cool.
He kind of just, like, kind of took the IPv6 header and the ICNPv6 header to see where
you can hide data, you know, and still have routers looking at it or whatever analysis
tool people would be using, you know, to still think it was a legitimate packet that
was being sent on the v6 network.
So, you know, he showed, like, examples and code and, like, where he would put the data
and stuff, and, you know, it's nice to see someone doing a, you know, research and, like,
thinking about applications of v6 before it has been, you know, globally deployed.
So that was really interesting, too.
And I think, actually, Stank started dozing off on that one.
I'm not sure.
You'll have to ask him about that.
But the last one I'm going to talk about is a talk by Gaudi Evron.
It's his last name.
I'm not a member.
But it's called DNS Abuse, Infrastructure, and Gain.
Now, the name was kind of ambiguous, and I thought it was going to be a talk kind of
like the one that Dan did last year about, like, using DNS itself to make it do cool things.
But as it turns out, it was a talk about botnet and what, you know, like, you know,
how she just did that kind of arguing with DNS to kind of enable the use of botnet.
Because, you know, like, so for those of you who don't know, botnet is basically a ton
of, like, millions and, you know, millions of owned machines.
And, you know, you have to control them.
So there are these, like, command centers.
Now, these command centers, you have to kind of get to them, right, from where you are.
I mean, whether you're using Tor or whatever, but you still need to address them.
So most people now are using DNS for that.
And, you know, he was showing how they would abuse DNS to basically not get caught and not
get their botnet shut down.
So he went through examples like how, you know, they would use many different command centers
and have the DNS entry expire, like, in some ridiculous amount of time, like 10 minutes or
like one minute.
Then, like, the command center would just kind of move, you know, every, like, one minute
so it would be really hard to track.
Because, you know, by the time you mobilize your, like, response team and you take down
that machine, they would be gone and using some other, you know, command center.
And, like, all this stuff that people were doing to keep their botnet.
So, I mean, that was very interesting in the perspective of, you know, someone who's kind
of, like, you know, maybe thinking about, like, doing some of that.
And I think that's all the talks I'm going to talk about.
Because on Sunday, I didn't actually go to any talks.
I just ended up hanging out and, like, sitting around with Spank and, like, this and upside
down and all of them.
And not very and just, like, chilling because I was really tired from the night before.
That's one of my favorite parts about the con is the social aspect of, you know, putting
a name to a face.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Like, I met so many people there that I've been, you know, talking to online for so long.
And it's just good to kind of have that chance, like, engage in, like, a real physical conversation
with them, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Like, yeah, like, I mean, like, I think Spank has said this before and everyone always
says this, but, you know, one observation that I have going to the con is that you always
see people, like, I don't know what they're doing.
And maybe it's, like, really important, but they just sit at, you know, some table the
whole weekend looking at their laptops.
And that doesn't make any sense to me because, like, I paid all this money to go here.
And, you know, I should probably go do something else that I wouldn't be doing if I hadn't
been in my room.
But I guess to each his own way if you want to pay the $100 they get in just to sit at a table
and type and pay for overpriced food and $2.50 bottles of Coke or whatever.
No, cans of Coke, excuse me.
In Vegas, $2.50 for a can of Coke?
Well, in the con, I mean, you can get cheaper Coke outside.
But, like, you know, I'm talking about, like, in the area where they have food next, like,
the vendors, like, the hangout area with all the tables and, like, they do some of the
competitions there.
A can of Coke is $2.50, which is just ridiculous.
But I ran into that last year.
Yeah, I mean, they do that every year because it's, like, you know, I mean, like, they do
it because they can.
And then that's pretty much how a lot of businesses operate.
But, like, Ziggy and Logos and Lunar Street, I think, was the one.
Some of us were just hanging out, and we were doing something, and I said, well, I'll go
get Cokes for everybody.
And it was, like, $20.
I was, like, you know, for some canned Coke.
It's like, shit, I should have just brought my own Coke.
Seriously, yeah, like, when you go there on Thursday night, you see all these people coming
with, like, you know, their own stuff and water and, like, food and, you know, and drinks
or whatever, like, I mean, it definitely makes sense if you draw, you know, bring your own
stuff because shit there is really expensive.
Yeah, last year we brought some Gatorade, the powder, and just bottles of water because
any place will give you water, you know, just out of the sink, and then just pour some Gatorade
in it, and you've got to drink.
Yeah, seriously.
But, um, I think it was Pupster.
Oh, go ahead.
I was just going to say, like, they have more competitions this year, too, I think.
But the competitions were definitely much better.
Like, they had new stuff, like Amateur Capture the Flag, and they had this new game called
the Mystery Box, which is, like, I think, I mean, I actually didn't see most of it, but
I just heard about it at the award ceremony, but it's a new game.
I think it's mainly lockpicking, and, like, basically you have these boxes, and you have
to try to get into them by either picking the lock or doing some other type of, you know,
whatever.
And, um, everyone seemed to love it.
And, like, from the description, I didn't know, like, you know, like, it didn't sound that cool
to me.
But when they talked about it at the award ceremonies, everyone was going nuts.
So anyone listening actually knew, know the actual rules, please tell me, because I would
love to, like, know what was going on.
So it was a physical box, not, like, a computer.
It was just some box.
Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry.
It was an actual, like, three-dimensional box.
Well, I guess a computer is three-dimensional also.
But, yeah, it's not a computer, you know, a box to put whatever, and yet to physically
break into it, like, by, you know, picking the lock, like I said, or whatever else they
had to do.
But everyone seemed to love that.
So, you know, they always have new stuff coming.
And, um, actually, um, if you were there for, like, the previous years, um, they had
the, um, robot wars.
And I don't think too many people, um, participated.
But this year, they had way more people participate.
And, you know, it was much better.
Like, the game was to have a robot autonomously shoot targets.
Like, you know, so you would just kind of press start and let the robot go.
And it would have to shoot down, like, 30 targets.
It would have to shoot airsoft, wouldn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, um, each target had, you know, some sort of, like, identifier that, like, the camera
and your robot can track.
And you had to, like, write software or do whatever.
To, you know, have it automatically track and shoot those targets.
And most of the robots did, like, fairly well.
And, you know, it's not easy to make a robot, like, automatically track and shoot stuff.
But, yeah, I mean, there were a lot of really, really interesting things happening there.
And, you know, it was just too much, actually.
I mean, to be honest, it was too much.
I was walking around and, like, there were, like, three things going on.
And one, like, in my field of vision all the time.
And I was trying to, like, you know, see what was going on.
And it just ended up being too much.
I definitely burned out by Sunday.
Yeah, there's definitely, you're just walking around and you'll go into a room and there's
all this going on.
And you'll go somewhere else and there's all this going on.
And then throughout the hotel there's all this stuff going on.
You can't possibly see everything.
No, no, definitely not.
But I did try.
And that didn't work out too well.
Because on the last day I was just like, oh, man, I'm so tired.
Dude, I don't even care.
I'm just going to sit here.
Yeah.
But, no, I mean, for someone with a little more stamina than me, there's definitely enough to see.
Good deal.
So, did y'all do cool things?
Yeah, definitely.
So, previous year they had the black and white ball.
And this year they kind of broke it up.
And on Friday night it was the black ball.
And on Saturday night it was the white ball.
And also, so they had these at the penthouse, which is really cool.
So, but they also had, like, private parties.
Well, not really private, but, like, parties that, like, specific groups threw.
And, like, some of them you need an invite, but some of them you didn't.
So, there's definitely more than, like, just one thing going on.
And they had, like, some really good DJs and people, you know, spinning and stuff.
And, actually, I've never heard them before.
I mean, I've heard of them.
But they had the mini bosses play.
And everyone was really excited about that.
But I've never actually heard them.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
No, I don't.
It's some band.
And it's supposed to be really good.
And, like, I've heard of them.
And, like, they're, you know, like, they're real.
And they had them play on Saturday, I think.
And, you know, like, it was a good turn.
And, like, I went up there.
But one thing I have to warn you is that for a lot of those parties, you have to be 21.
There was, like, there was this big, like, deal.
Because I guess the Metro went there.
Like, I didn't actually see any cops.
But they were saying, like, the Metro was there undercover.
And they were, like, busting people for being underage and drinking.
So, like, they got really uptight about it later.
And they made you show your ID, like, every time you pass certain checkpoints.
So, if you're not 21, you know, either don't go or have some way where you can prove that you are actually over 21.
Now, I'm not saying get a fake ID.
I'm just saying that's what happens.
And if you want to go to parties, just make sure, you know, you're 21 if you're not already somehow.
Or if you're under 21, you can always go, like, to the arcade or something at the casino, right?
Yeah, I guess so.
That's a good idea.
I mean, yes, yes, Drew, you are right.
You can always go to the arcade.
The arcade.
Or you can always go to the 3x10.
Have your mom pick you up.
Exactly.
Maybe you can go, like, a parent.
You show with your mom.
And then your mom says, it's okay, you know, like, at the movies.
That would work.
So, if you guys are under 21, try to bring your mom.
I'm sure they'll let you in.
Yes.
That'll always work.
Because nothing makes you cooler than bringing your mom to the party.
Hey, you don't know my mom.
That's right.
You don't know my mom.
What happens in Vegas State in Vegas.
That's right.
Or you can hire a prostitute who's over 21 and pretend to have that be your mom.
That would also work.
That would be awesome.
That would.
And, you know, once you get in there, you don't have to tell people she's your mom.
You can just be like, yeah, this is my girlfriend.
What?
This is my prostitute.
But, again, you have to get, like, the $500 together.
I mean, supposedly, $500.
I don't actually know how much it is.
But, you know, I'm just throwing a number out there.
That was something that amazed us.
Like, they're in the phone book.
You know, for companionship.
It's very interesting there in Vegas.
I think it's what they call it.
A date.
Yeah.
A date.
Oh, good deal.
Okay.
Finram is in no way advocating the use of prostitutes.
So, let's just get that out there.
Look, let's just go over the top and give a tip for the people that are under 21 trying to get some liquor on.
Okay?
Let's just do that and be done with this whole subject.
Okay?
Okay.
I'll go first.
Okay.
Go to a restaurant that has a bar and is popular.
So, like, on Fridays, you have to wait.
Go straight into the bar with a friend that's over 21 and get them to order a drink.
They will be ID'd at the bar.
They will get their drink.
Then say, oh, we're going to sit at a table.
Go sit at your table.
The underage person takes the drink and sets it in front of them.
So, they've already, you know, when the waitress comes around, she thinks they've already been ID'd because they've got a beer.
And then the over 21 guy says, hey, you know, I changed my mind.
I want a beer, too.
They get ID'd again.
And you both have a beer.
You just blew my mind.
That is the most intricate plan I've ever heard.
Okay.
It works every time.
Or at least it used to, like, eight years ago.
All right.
Here's my advice.
Next year at DEF CON, come find me.
I will buy you alcohol.
Unless you're under 15.
I will not buy you alcohol if you're under 15.
But any other age, I will hook you up.
Yeah.
That's my tip.
That's much simpler than whatever you just said.
I kind of zoned out after two seconds.
Good deal.
Mr. Lotec, you have any advice for anybody?
No.
I'm going to stand on the legal side of this conversation.
See, technically, this is social engineering.
This is something that, like, if I owned a restaurant, I'd want to hear.
So, I could say, hey, maybe when someone orders a drink, ID them again.
You know?
Yeah.
Don't be lazy.
Or if you're a policeman, just follow a verbal around.
Okay.
Anyway.
Okay.
Let's move on.
So, the quality of talks at DEF CON this year, were they up to normal?
I noticed a lot of people were doing, you know, multiple talks.
Yeah.
I did notice that, too.
I'm not sure what the deal with that is.
But the quality of talks was definitely higher.
Well, let me say this.
The topics and kind of technical level of the talks,
were better than previous years.
But then again, you know, like, some people are just naturally, like,
better at speaking than others.
So, like, if, you know, someone who happens to do a talk,
but if they're kind of, like, boring or whatever,
then that talk wouldn't be as good, obviously.
But, like, kind of the topics that they would talk about was, you know,
much better than previous years.
And I don't know why that's happening.
But, I mean, it's definitely a good thing.
You know, for whatever reason, kind of, like, the right –
we're getting the, you know, right number of right people doing talks.
And, you know, I definitely hope to see that trend continue.
All right, we're at 37 minutes.
Good deal.
All right.
Wait, what?
We've gotten 37 minutes of the show done.
Okay.
Well, you're going to take out some stuff, right?
Like, me talking right now, you're not going to have that on the show, right?
Oh, no, no.
We're going to talk out – we're going to take out where I called Losak by his real name.
Okay.
All right, so I'm just saying, like, we probably have less than 37 minutes of actual time.
Okay.
Yeah, there's probably, like, 15 minutes.
Penis, penis, penis, penis.
How long is the show supposed to be anyway?
Well, a little over an hour.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, that's what I was shooting for, like, an hour.
So, I don't know, like, we can – I guess – I don't know.
Is there anybody else we can call, or is it all, uh, Mr. –
Let me see if anyone's online.
Because Upside Down was there, and he can pen for documentary he's doing.
Hell, yeah, get him.
Did he check out this, uh, mystery box?
I'm interested in this, uh, fucking mystery box.
That motherfucker sounds cool.
I don't think he did.
Okay.
Uh, he is not answering.
Should I call him?
Oh, wait, he's here.
Uh, hey, come on the radio show.
We're not cutting this out.
No, I don't.
Okay.
But I have some other filler.
We have the Hacker Media site finally ready, and I was going to talk, like, ten minutes on it, so.
Okay.
And then we were going to beatbox.
All right.
We could just find, like, uh, like a Grateful Dead track that's, like, 20 minutes long and play that at the end.
Okay.
He's up.
He's going to call at some point.
All right.
Sweet.
What else are we talking about?
We did the talks.
We did the content.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
We should talk about some, like, I don't know.
So.
I have some questions for you specifically, if that's cool.
Yeah.
I mean, it doesn't have to be about that fun.
Ask me anything.
Bring it.
Well, uh, what kind of hacker projects are you working on right now?
Oh, this is a personal interview.
All right.
Um, right now, uh, we're doing, actually, this is a good time to pimp Hack Exchange.
Um, okay.
Right now, I'm working on something with a bunch of people from Binrev called hackerexchange.com.
Originally, um, well, it still is, is a Logos' baby.
And I think he kind of got caught up in some stuff, so I offered to take it over.
Um, but what it is, is, I know I'm going to get a lot of shit from this, but what it is,
is a cross between MySpace and SourceForge.
There, I've said it.
Awesome.
It's kind of like a social networking site, like, kind of geared towards, uh, hackers
and other, like, you know, geeks of whatever kind, like phone freaks or whatever.
It's kind of a place for them to find other people to work on projects for and just, you
know, kind of do whatever it is that people do on social networking sites.
And, uh, you know, a couple people have signed on, but we can always use more people.
Um, it, right now, it's kind of on hold for me personally.
Because I'm working on some other stuff, but I'm definitely, you know, it's definitely
in my mind, and I'm going to do it.
But I just need to find the time.
So, if anyone wants to help, that would be awesome.
Um, another, I mean, some other, okay, so obviously I have, uh, nine to five.
Well, it's more like ten, eleven to six.
But, uh, you know, I have a job during the day, so, you know, I'm doing that.
And I'm actually also doing a startup, and I can't really talk about it, but it's going
to be about, like, um, application programming for phones.
So, we're just going to write some applications, try to make some money, I guess.
What, what else am I working on?
Um, so, so in addition to all the stuff I said before, um, wait, I can't actually, oh, hold
on, stop, time out.
I, I can't talk about what other stuff I'm working on.
It's kind of, uh, not legal.
No, no, it's legal, but it's kind of, like, sketchy, you know?
Okay, never mind.
So...
Are you selling drugs on Craigslist?
What?
Are you selling drugs on Craigslist?
Yes, on Craigslist and MySpace.
Oh, so there's...
Oh, let's hang on.
Okay, so we're also doing a, um, okay, it's what some people want to call the real
duck droppers, quote, quote, but, um, Kyle and I are actually just starting a,
uh, repository of kind of e-books and, and other things that people might have.
And the interesting part, I mean, the, the, the part that, you know, we want to work on
is kind of like a textual search.
So if you have all these text documents and whatever on a website, then, then you, you
don't really know what's in there.
And that's, you know, that's one of the good things about, like, Google Books and other
services like that.
So what we want to do is write a textual search on it.
And, you know, it'll give us, like, a chance to play with web, web crawlers and all that
junk.
So that's something else I'm working on.
And, um, I think that's all I'm working on that I can...
And we're also joined by, uh, Mr. Upside Down.
And, uh, say hi.
Hello.
And he also went to DEFCON.
So now we have, uh, an equal ratio of goers and non-goers.
And, uh, so, Mr. Upside Down, you want to talk about DEFCON for a second?
Do you need me to ask you questions?
What was that?
Do you want to just talk on your own or do you want me to ask you questions?
Oh, um, I don't know what questions I guess would be good.
I don't know.
Did you see any titties?
Did I see what?
Any titties?
Any breasts?
Um, only ones belonging to men?
No females.
Ooh.
Yeah.
Well, you might as well just hang up now.
Oh.
Okay.
Hold on.
Let me go in for one second about this.
This is...
I know people are going to call me an asshole.
But, so this weekend I was at DEFCON and two weekends ago I was at Comic-Con.
And in this month I've seen more male breasts than I ever want to see again in my life.
I don't know what I'm, you know, I don't know what I'm saying or, like, if I want people to do something about it.
I'm just making the observation.
And, you know, that's kind of a negative point for me for these conferences.
So hopefully next year when I go there will be less male titties.
That's all I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying.
It's like Mitch.
So what talks did you go to, Sadab?
I was actually running around doing a documentary a good amount of the time.
So I really just went to Strong's to record that.
And that was pretty much it.
I didn't go to very many talks at all.
I mean, I sat in on those repairing hard drives, I guess, or rebuilding them.
And then that was it.
And then I was just running around recording people.
You're working on a documentary?
Well, yeah.
I was making a documentary about DEFCON itself.
So, yeah.
Well, why don't you talk for a minute about that?
Well, wait.
What should I talk about about that?
Does it document, like, all DEFCONs or just this one?
Or have you ever made a documentary before?
I helped film a documentary before this.
And then this is the only one that I've actually set out to do myself and do all the editing and everything.
But it was just covering DEFCON just to show what it is.
And, I mean, I interviewed Stank Dog.
I interviewed Verbal.
I interviewed – we interviewed people that were doing Capture the Flag.
What else?
We interviewed, like, a bunch of people.
But – oh, yeah.
I interviewed Dark Tangent, too.
And so we got a lot of interviews down.
But it was kind of a bitch recording it there because you can't really record any groups of people or anything.
You can't have anyone walk in the background.
When you're recording, they'll kick you out.
So, yeah.
We were just running around trying to – I was trying to run around to finish that up.
Upside down.
I actually – I mean, I saw people with cameras, like, just filming.
Like, I don't know if that's, like, the official DEFCON video or what.
Because there are definitely people filming all sorts of shit.
Like, there has to be some way around it.
Because, like, it doesn't make any sense that you can't, like, have those people in your shot.
You know?
Yeah.
Because, like, I mean – oh, go ahead.
No, because I was just saying, I mean, you know, there have been, like, documentaries and other, like, videos of, like, real things and, like, people.
And, like, crowds of people.
And I'm sure they didn't get – so I don't know what the deal is.
But, you know, we should really look into how we can get around that for next year or, like, if we choose to do another video.
Yeah.
Well, what happened is when I was – they sent me the press guidelines when they told me I could do the documentary.
Like, DEFCON itself, like, the press people sent me the press guidelines.
And in it said you can't film groups of people.
And then when I picked up my badge, they told me don't film groups of people, don't film any feds, don't film any hackers.
You know, like, they'll be in the background and they don't want to be.
And this whole mess.
And then I ran into Zink also.
It was one of the goons.
And he said that I guess they had to chase some guy down because he wanted to capture the flag and try to take a panning shot of the entire arena.
And they had to chase him down to get the tape back.
And it was a whole mess, so.
Now, is it just the people's faces that you can't have?
Or, like, even if you have some guy's elbows, that's no good.
I think you can get elbows and stuff.
It's just so they're not recognizable.
Yeah, okay, I mean, like, maybe, okay, because I was thinking, like, maybe if, you know, like, those rooms are pretty dark anyway.
So if you had, like, you know, some sort of just, like, sweep shot and, like, blur out whoever you can actually make out a face with.
I guess they can't take that chance and have people having their own cameras.
Well, that's interesting because you can walk around with a film camera.
Yeah, right?
A still camera and just take all the pictures you want and put them up on Flickr.
Yeah.
Well, but I think the point is that if you have a camcorder and, you know, you, like, go and say, here, I'm doing documentary.
And you have, like, a press pass and everything that they assume it's going to go somewhere, like, public and not in, like, a private collection.
So there's probably something, like, wrong with that if you, like, air it on TV or, like, release it to the public or something.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, when are you releasing this documentary?
I have to start editing.
So I'm hopefully – I'm hoping to edit and finish it by, like, before September.
So hopefully I'll have it out before September sometime.
And are you releasing this as a DVD or as a web download or –
I'm going to put it online.
I'm going to – I think, like, I might be submitting it to current.tv where people can vote on it and it goes up.
And then if it actually makes it to the top, it airs on TV.
They basically buy the rights from me, though.
So I'm going to spread it online before I do that.
Well, I know this guy that runs his Hacker Media website.
And you can definitely have it put up on that.
Yeah, I mean, you can spread it everywhere.
You probably shouldn't have said that before actually doing it.
And it's going to be released under, like, a Creative Commons share a like kind of deal?
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess so.
I mean, until the – until the place buys the rights from me if I submit it to them.
And then, I don't know.
Well, maybe you know more about this than I do.
But as an example, which is one of the rare examples of this, like Jason Scott's documentary about the BBSs.
Like, he sells that.
And it's also released under Creative Commons because he owns all the rights to it and he can do it at once.
But he also is putting all the footage up on archive.org that he's shot.
Like, let's say this current TV buys the rights of it from you.
Is that buying the rights of, like, all the video you shot or just how you edited that video together?
So, could you release all your raw video and the installation of it?
I'm not sure about that.
That actually sounds like that might work.
Because they're buying the video that I edited and they're piecing it together.
So, I mean, they're taking it and then just doing whatever they're doing to it with adding credits and everything.
But I think I could probably release the raw footage, yeah.
You should ask Jason Scott.
Jason Scott, if you're listening, call us.
We need to talk.
You know what's actually really funny is I was drunk on Saturday night, I think.
And I see this guy with a Segway.
And so, I asked him if I could write it.
And I started writing that around and around.
Then I got off, asked him again if I could write it.
And I'm having fun because I'm drunk and this thing's just moving me around.
I get off again and I look at him.
I'm like, you look really familiar.
And he goes, oh, I'm Jason Scott of Texas.com.
And it's just really funny.
I took a picture with him and everything.
Did he have a really crazy shirt on?
No, I had a picture with him.
He's just a regular black shirt, I think.
Okay.
He's usually a lot more noticeable with his crazy shirt.
Well, good deal, man.
You're making a documentary on DEF CON and you're putting it up for everyone to watch.
Yep.
Good deal.
I got to get around to editing that.
So, now, when I went, they gave me a CD of all the talks that people had given, you know, their presentations.
Yeah.
And it didn't have everything on it, but it had a bunch of them.
They gave those out this year, I assume.
Oh, what was that?
Sorry.
Yeah.
Oh, I did give it out this year.
Yeah.
They gave them out.
Yeah.
I haven't taken a look at it yet, but, yeah, they passed those out, so.
I was actually looking for Dan Kaminsky's talk, the Black Ops talk.
I could not find it.
I don't know where it is.
It might be on his website or something, but on the CD, it's organized by last name of
the speaker, and his name is definitely not on here.
So, I think there might be some materials missing.
Like, if someone didn't, you know, put his slides up in time before they made the CD, then
it might not be.
But most of the slides from the talk should be here.
So, we'll definitely put that up for anyone, you know, who were interested in some of the
talks that either I mentioned, or if they just, like, looked at the schedule and wanted
to check some stuff out, they can download it.
Yeah.
And we'll have a link to that in the show notes, hopefully.
And as soon as we have a place for it, I'll put a link on the InfoNomicon.org site to wherever
that is so people can find it.
Actually, if I can interrupt and segue for a little bit, I have something I noticed, I
guess, between two years ago and, you know, these past two years.
And, upside down, you said you went to Descon, like, on 2000 or something?
It was Descon 10.
I think it was 2002.
Okay.
So, maybe you can back me up.
But, so up until two years ago, I think the girl-to-guy ratio was, like, probably 99.5, you
know, well, that's not a ratio.
So, let's just go around 99 to 1.
In the last two years, there have definitely been more women at Descon.
And I don't know if that's just me or if you're actually noticing that, too.
Yeah.
I think I noticed that also.
But, the thing is that I actually said this right when I got there, and it slowly came
through as I was going along.
But, or at least I thought it was.
It was about, like, 70.
And then, for the other 25%, like, I don't know.
It seemed like that to me, at least.
Well, what I was talking, what I was talking about is that it's just nice to see more women
getting into technology.
Right, right.
My mind's going in a different direction.
So, somebody's horny and somebody's not.
There are more women, like, presenting at Descon and at Black Hat also, you know, from what
I've seen.
And I guess, you know, I'm just saying I hope that continues.
It's just because, you know, I think we, for some reason, there's always been, like, kind
of an imaginary block or, like, a stigma with, you know, with women and getting into technology.
And so, I'm just saying it's good to see that kind of breaking down.
And the next thing that we have to work on is getting girls on camera because they were
very shy about it.
Yes.
Okay.
I'm calling out all the girls who went to Descon.
We asked about three to four or maybe even more girls to be on camera to be interviewed
because we wanted a female's perspective.
And none of them would do it.
Everyone said they were camera shy.
What is up with that?
Like, yeah, I mean, guys, I think, were supposed to be more camera shy or at least the geeky
ones.
And I don't know what's going on, but next year, I expect to at least interview two women
who are, you know, at Descon doing whatever.
That's definitely a good goal.
If you need me to, I'll dress up like a girl.
Droops, next year, you're going to go to Vegas and you're going to bring Mrs. Droops and
we're going to interview her.
So, you can tell her that now.
Awesome.
I will start prepping her for that.
Yeah, I don't know how much conversation we had to have to get her to help me with the
Phenomenon TV that one time.
Really?
Tell her, tell her she's an icon in the community.
She's like, you know, like a myth, an alleged Droops' wife.
Everyone was asking where Droops' wife was.
That's awesome.
It is.
I mean, I was so, I'm so sad to have to tell them that you guys weren't there.
It just blows my heart.
Oh, Lordy.
My wife's the icon.
You should be proud.
Come on.
What are you thinking?
I'm very excited about it.
I try to bring it up in every conversation that I have.
Perhaps you've met my wife.
She was the hottest girl there, you know.
You know how I do.
That's how I roll.
Well, hey, Mr. Lote, do you think we have enough time-wise?
On time, we're running at, uh, right around 45, uh, 45 to 15 minutes.
Okay.
We might need some more stuff.
Yeah, I think we need to keep talking for a little while.
Did, uh, was there any e-mail for this show?
Are you going to miss with e-mail?
I don't, I don't know.
I haven't gotten in touch with Black Ratchet enough to get the e-mail.
All right.
Well, then we should probably talk for, I guess, uh, whatever, 15 more minutes.
All right.
There's going to be...
Ask me anything.
Or ask Upside Down anything.
Yep.
So, Upside Down, you, uh, have done a documentary before you did the filming,
and now you're doing one.
Um, like, are you, are you a computer guy, a phone guy, or are you just interested in
the scene?
What's up with you?
Um, I'm more of a computer guy, and then recently I just kind of got into the whole film thing,
and then I haven't been really reading up on anything online, so I'm kind of just, like,
flowing with the scene and all that, but I don't know.
I need to read up on stuff, because I'm falling behind.
And we all need to read up on stuff, I think.
It doesn't matter how smart you are, there's always, uh, more stuff to learn.
Right.
Um, I'm trying to think of, uh, questions.
Uh, dumb-dee-dum, more dead air.
I'm going to have to do a lot of editing.
Sorry.
Good thing this show isn't live, huh?
Well, actually, um, if you don't mind, I have something I would like to talk about
for maybe three to five minutes.
Go for it, big guy.
Okay, um, this other project, well, it's not really a project yet, but some, an idea that
I've been throwing around with Spank is that I want to do a VINREV mentorship program, and,
I mean, the way it works is I would, um, we would have people sign up to be mentors, and
you would kind of, like, list your skill set, and, like, the time you have available to mentor
someone, and, because, you know, I see a lot of people on the channel always asking stuff,
you know, people who want to learn about this and that, and I thought it'd be a good idea,
you know, to get some of the more experienced people involved, and kind of guide the other
people to learn whatever it is they want to learn, so once we get a list of mentors and
people who are willing to devote their time to this, then we can have people start applying
and, like, signing up for stuff, and, you know, I talked to Spank, and he thought it was a
good idea, but the problem is, I guess, the execution, because you have to, you know, get
people to do it, first of all, and then once you pair them up, you have to kind of make
sure that, you know, one guy's been wasting someone else's time or vice versa, so if you
guys, you know, out there are interested in something like this or you want to be a mentor
or you want to get mentored, you know, send me an email and kind of just give me some feedback
so I know what people are thinking, because I would really like to start that up, you know,
whenever possible, and my email is verbal at gmail.com, easy enough to remember, so just
kind of give me whatever feedback, you know, if you want to tell me it's a dumb idea and
I suck or whatever, that's fine, too, but, you know, just send me some email and let me
know what you think.
I think that's a great idea.
You know, there's been talk about doing stuff like that, but, like, that would, you know,
that would be awesome to have somebody that was always there to help you with something
specific like that.
Yeah.
So when you got stuck, you didn't have to waste all your time trying to figure out an answer.
Right, because the thing is, like, if you have someone responsible for you, that's much easier
than, like, if you don't know anything, you know, like, if you have a question and you don't
really know, like, a specific person, you just kind of go on the channel, it's hit or miss,
right?
So if you kind of have someone who's like, okay, he's my responsibility, he or she, and,
you know, so you can just email and contact them directly, like, that would just make
the process so much easier and faster, I think.
You know, like, I think that maybe that's a good idea, but, you know, it's the execution
that's the problem.
Well, that would also be a really good motivational factor.
Like, I'm really bad about self-motivation.
You know, if I had my druthers, I'd just sit and watch YouTube all day.
But when I have somebody, like, depending on me or checking up on me, I can actually get
stuff done.
Right, right, right.
That's a really cool idea.
I mean, when we have enough kind of support and interest in it, I'm just going to, I mean,
you know, it definitely takes, like, no work on my part, because I'm just going to throw
up a webpage and be like, sign up, and then the only thing I have to do is match people
up and kind of, like, check in with them once in a while to see what they're doing and,
you know, to make sure, like, things are actually happening, you know, so it takes none
of my time.
We just need participation from the community, so.
Well, that's going to be a big theme of next week's show as kind of a little teaser is
participation from the community.
And while I have the three of y'all captive, I'd like to start a different conversation.
And I want to talk about the Hacker Media website for a second.
I don't know if y'all have read in the forums.
I'm trying to get a good definition of what needs to be considered Hacker Media for us
to put on the site.
And I'm trying not to be the guy that says, this is how it is, and I want to get opinions
from the community.
But the way, my personal view of the whole thing, as Hacker Media should be stuff like
BinRev and, you know, Ninja Night School or whatever shows you have, Gamer Radio, things
like that.
And the commercial stuff like Make Magazine, which is frickin' cool, and they have the coolest
shit, shouldn't be on the Hacker Media site because they're a commercial entity and they
pay for advertising and they pay for stuff like that.
And they, you know, have advertising and such like that.
And I don't want to have their ads on a site that I'm paying for that I don't have, you
know, ads on.
I don't think Hacker Media should be about making the money.
I think it should be about, you know, sharing the information.
Like Iron Geek has ads on his site.
And I'm not going to say he's not Hacker Media because he's doing it because he loves doing
it.
It's not because he's getting like a fat paycheck for it.
What are y'all, what are y'all's views on stuff like this?
So is the question what should be on the Hacker Media website?
Yeah, like Security Now has advertising in their RSS feed.
And if you haven't seen the new site, it's completely RSS driven.
So no one has to log in and upload a show.
Oh, so do you mean just like in terms of whether we should have, I mean, sorry, whether you
should have advertising or like the content of the shows that you put on Hacker Media?
Well, like let's take Ninja Night School, for example.
It's not technical content at all, but it's really interesting to, you know, like the mindset.
And Low Tech Mystic's not making money off of it.
He's doing it because he loves doing it and sharing, you know, trying to open people's
minds up.
And I think that's Hacker Media.
So, I mean, this is kind of, you know, what I think.
And it might be too broad or loose for some people.
But it's like, you know, Hacker Media, obviously, you know, the name defines what it is.
And it kind of comes back to the question, like, what do we consider to, you know, relate
to, is related to hacking?
You know, so obviously some people will be like, blah, blah.
But at the same time, you know, like, for example, if you need to go to DEF CON, you see
a lot of things that are not kind of related directly to hacking, like lockpicking.
And, you know, like, for example, what if someone wants to do a podcast on, you know, lockpicking?
Like, are you going to tell them no?
So I think that, you know, if it were me, I would kind of let, you know, all the shows
that are, like you said, in the same mindset, same hacker mindset, you know, whether it is
non-technical or not, but, you know, just have it be in there because it's the same mentality
and it's like the same group of people who do these kind of things.
And as for ads or not, like, it's cool if you can keep doing this, you know, having no
ads and all that unknown stuff.
But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, putting up a site and running it requires
time and money.
So I think that, right, so I think that if, you know, if you need to have ads to keep the
site open, then you should do it.
Like, you know, that's what I would say.
But if it's your job, it's totally different.
Right.
Like, if you have a business and that's one of the things you produce in your business
is something that's interesting to hackers, it's not really hacker media because that's
your business now.
It's not the love of it.
Like, if the Linux Link Tech Show got a sponsor and every show they opened with, you know,
we're sponsored by Jimbo's computer store, that's cool because it's still four guys in
a basement doing a show about Linux.
And it's not because they're getting paid to do it, it's because they love Linux and
they love promoting it and talking about it.
Right.
That would be considered hacker media.
Right.
Like, for you, like, you know, I know that you're doing it because you love it and you
want to kind of put something out for the community.
So I think that, you know, if you needed to put ads on hacker media for whatever reason,
you know, I personally think it'd be okay.
I mean, I think all of your listeners, you know, to all the hacker media shows would
understand, too.
And, you know, if they don't, then, like, I say, fuck it.
Do what you need to do.
Well, I'm going to try to keep ads off the site.
Right.
Because I don't want to make money off of other people's work.
Right, right.
But if I had the show, like, if I brought back Imponomicon Radio and had ads on that
site, that would be okay because that's paying for the site.
Right.
Okay.
What about you, upside down?
I agree with everything that Verbo just said and that you said.
And I totally understand what you're saying about the whole, if they go mainstream in their
business, like, that's just, you know, it kind of just moves away from the scene if you
think about it.
I mean, I don't know.
Because just like you were saying, people are doing it because they love doing it, not
because they're getting paid to do it.
But, yeah, I totally agree with that.
I mean, that's how I think it should be.
I mean, everything you guys just said was totally on.
Well, as soon as the stinky dog sets up the DNS port, which you went to bed before you
did it tonight because he was sleepy from DEFCON, and the new Hacker Media site will be up.
Mr. Yel Sab actually did all the work.
I mean, I've just been really busy and slow, and I apologize to everyone for not having
the new stuff up.
But if you want to see it right now, you can go to binrev.com slash the little squiggly
H-media, and you can see the new site.
It's really freaking slick.
And hopefully everyone will be good in their RSS feeds and not screw with it, because it's
completely driven off of that.
So you always have the latest information.
And there's no more comments on the website, maybe.
And we're trying to direct all that to the binrev forums, where we have a whole bunch more
people and a captive audience kind of to discuss the shows.
And if anybody wants to be on Hacker Media, just contact me.
It's droops at Gmail for right now.
We're going to set up one for the admin at Hacker Media.
But tell me, and we'll put it up there.
And you don't have to be technical content.
You just have to be something that's hackery.
I don't know.
Is that a real word?
I think you made up a new word.
Sweet.
And I think that's probably going to be a show for right now.
Is that good, Mr. Low Tech?
Yeah.
We're there on time.
Anybody want to make any shouts?
You should change the Hacker Media slogan to All Things Hackery.
I will do that tonight.
All right.
Yeah, shouts.
I just want to give a shout to Tom and Tio, because if I don't, they'll probably kill me.
And Tom also wanted me to say that he's starting a campaign for a donation fund, you know, for him to go to DEF CON next year, because he lives in Norway.
And it takes him, like, you know, like $3 million and, like, 10 days to come to Las Vegas from there.
And a steamship.
Yeah.
Actually, he's going to have to take a spaceship to the new moon base and then get, you know, the transit from there to California.
I was at the moon base last month.
It's really nice.
They finished up the construction.
Really?
Do they see the floor?
Oh, the floors, the exquisite, and the ceilings.
I've got pictures.
I'll email them to you.
Do they have the carbonation in the Coke machines right?
It's getting there.
Put some on the site.
I would love to see it.
Yeah, I'm scheduled to go up, like, six months, I tell.
Good times.
What's interesting about the moon base, or the whatever, is that it's actually completely wrong on Apple computers.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
Wait, what?
What's wrong on Apple computers?
No, no, I love an Apple computer.
What are you talking about?
I'm so confused.
You just have to listen to the show and figure it out.
How about you, upside down?
Shouts?
Yes.
Okay.
I'd like to give a shout to MC Router from Leap Geek Beat for letting me use their music in the documentary.
Which I'll be doing soon.
And just everyone who helped and allowed me to film them.
So, that's pretty much it.
Awesome.
What about you, Mr. Low Tech?
Oh, I just want to give a shout out to Bitbiter and all my buddies that I met last night down at the moon base.
You know, rocking times.
Sweet.
I want to say a special thank you to Mr. Yeltsav for doing a kick-ass job on the Hacker Media site.
I can't say it enough.
It's awesome.
And if you peruse the HTML code and the PHP and whatever, he wrote all that by hand.
Like, I just edited it in just a tiny little fraction.
But, like, he is hardcore.
It's awesome.
And if you look in it, you'll find a reference to another website that's going to be announced next week.
That we're currently working on, kind of a sister site for Hacker Media.
And I want to say thank you to Mr. Petrillo for doing TWAT Radio for so long and making sure it was up every day.
And to Mr. Enigma, I hope you can do as good of a job as he did.
And for taking over on TWAT.
On the show.
I really appreciate it.
We're kind of in a bind.
And you all both came to the rescue and did a wonderful job on the show.
No problem.
Good deal.
Yes.
You're going to be on every week from now on.
Don't worry.
Nice.
I'll be looking forward to that.
Just no live shows.
It actually took us three hours to record this.
Oh, wow.
I hope you did.
No.
Anyway, well, I think that's a good night from all of us here at Binary Revolution Radio.
And why don't you two do the closing?
Okay.
We'll see you again next time.
Same hack time.
Same hack channel.
And our closing music tonight is the Spin Doctors singing Little Miss Can't Be Wrong.
And I know you're saying, oh, no, that's not independent media or whatever.
But it's actually up on archive.org.
It's recorded from a live show.
And there's lots of really good stuff you can find on archive.org.
And that's not available.
We'll be right back.
So, we'll be right back.
So what?
Been a whole lot easier since the bitch left town
I've been a whole lot happier but I miss a night
Don't be upstairs, only time to show it
I'm walking in the back door and I'm throwing down
I've been out of my head
She's a whole lot happier but I miss a night
She won't run down near the streets
He won't run wow
Been a whole lot easier since the bitches left town
It's your dreams, in a whole space chaos
It's what they call you
He's looking in the one that is, at rock chase
Woo!
I'm a baby, I'm a T-H-O, feelin' y'all an engine
What do you think you've got to take the track and run around?
You just sound loud, I'm a nice adventure, but you just
don't want to bring the tune to the bonnet,
I'm a job, I'm a job, I'm a job, I'm a job, I'm a job!
You just can't ride around!
Maybe you should've been acceptor on you,
and get to the end of all the things I've am all of them!
GWEN può Soleil ROT
getting lifeless, unquote!
I can't remember how I can tell you, I can tell you, I can tell you, oh, you can tell me, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you.
I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you, oh, I can tell you.
We'll just go home to get you another one with LXT
We'll just do no
We'll be right back.
We'll see you next time.
Same hack time.
And then you say same hack time?
Okay.
Do you even listen to the show?
Yeah, dude.
I listened to it.
I haven't listened to it in a little while.
Like, maybe two weeks or something.
You all are too old.
Okay.
We'll see you again next time.
Are you doing it or am I doing it?
Wait.
Am I doing it at the beginning or are you doing the beginning?
Oh, my God.
Upside down, you start.
Okay.
We'll see you next time.
Okay, bring it back.
Bring it back.
Okay.
I'll start.
Okay.
I'm ready.
Okay.
All right.
We'll see you next.
Oh, my God.
You're wasting so much pain.
Okay.
We're going first.
I'll go first.
Okay.