This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers.
I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my toes, I'll post a million jpegs of you
and a fag pwned, in your digital stance getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in
my six-fold, I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable,
on the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo, on the digital highway, my name is Neo and
I'm a hero, in a flash, I'll screw you on burning dreamcast, you need some ISO, let me through
my hard drive rifle, our exchange you could never stifle, in a digital hug, you just caught
the love bug, I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z, your CG, it's
all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely, you feel that rattling
your phones, when I tell you we just hacked out Jones, and NASDAQ leaves you flat on your
back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.
This is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers, serial codes, source codes, ISOs, RANs, SIFs,
SIFs, this is dedicated to the hackers and the crackers.
Hello everybody and welcome to Binary Revolution motherfucking radio bitches, I am StagDog back in
the hizzy for episode 162, coming to you September 5th, 2006. And yes, this is going to be a very
interesting episode this week. Buddy Droops must have got caught up somewhere, I think he went through
some like space time, vorpal continuation, Star Trek something or other, and didn't release an episode
last week. So I'm stepping in here and the last episode that was done had a little bit of follow
up that needed to be done with our co-host once again tonight, Verbal, who's on the phone right
now. Verbal, say hello to the people. Hey, what's going on? And we are going to bring in another,
another co-host tonight, Noe Lani, who was also on that episode, and kind of finish up on the topic
they started on there. So we will have a warm welcome for them, of course. And also in the
housekeeping section here, I guess I should mention that since we did miss an episode last week,
and when I say we, I mean Buddy Droops, I'm going to be taking the show back over for a little while,
try to get us caught back up on some things so Droops can take care of some personal stuff he's
got to deal with. So tune in for some cool shows coming up. I've already been planning them,
actually. The way this season was going to work, and is going to work, is that each of us, whoever
that us ends up being, is going to take the show for, say, a couple months, or a month at a time,
maybe two, however long we have, and kind of hand it off between all of us. That way everybody gets
kind of a breath of fresh air, different hosts, different style of doing the show, different topics
as well. Kind of rotate a lot of different things in there so it's not stale, bland, boring, stank dog
every week, because I think we all know how pretty bad that can be at times.
Seriously.
But, all I can promise you is that I will not be doing any live shows. I'm just saying. I'm just saying.
So, what I think what I'm going to do right now is I'm going to try to pull off a doubleheader next
week, and no, that's nothing sexual. We're going to try to do two episodes back-to-back.
First time ever, Binary Revolution Radio, Tuesday, September 12th, a week from today.
We're going to do back-to-back episodes. So, tune in Tuesday and get three hours of Binary
Revolution goodness. Is that a word? Goodness?
No. Well, it is now.
Definitely not.
Well, you're going to get two, three hours of something. I don't know if it's goodness,
badness, whatever. But, actually, maybe our email will give us a clue to that coming up later on.
But, anyway, actually, because two weeks have passed, I have quite a bit of housekeeping to do.
So, bear with me a little bit verbal. I know I'm running my mouth as usual, but I want to announce
to everybody that Bell's Mind is back up and running. So, make sure you check out bellsmind.net.
And the number for that is country code 1. That would be UNO for our Spanish-speaking listeners.
And the area code of 712. Number is 432-9020. Now, for a non-retarded version of that, it's
1-712-432-9020. And you can get your Binary Revolution radio fix over the phone, as well
as some other shows. So, I know some people will be at work or will be out on the road
or whatever. They'll listen to it on their cell phone. I've heard people say they listen
to it on their cell while driving around for business or driving across the country, which
is cool. So, we've got that back up and running. And more importantly than that, the coolest
thing that we've all kind of been missing out on are the conferences. So, the conferences
are back up and running. I was actually checking a few of those out earlier today. So, we have
our official conference back up for Binary Revolution radio. And we could use a little
help. It's pretty much the same engine that's always been on there. Same code that's been
running. But we are in the process of making some changes. So, if you guys can call in and
just do some testing. Make sure everything's working. Let us know if you get any errors. Let
us know if you get any bugs or if there's anything you want added to it. But for the
most part, it seems to be running okay. So, we want to do a little bit of stress test,
see how to make sure it can handle a larger number of people. And we have some other things
in the works. So, keep your eyes and ears out for some more announcements as they become
available. So, now we're going to get on with the show. See, I didn't spend too awful long
on housekeeping. And I'm going to skip the show and tell segment. I know how
much you love it, Verbal. Don't cry. I'm going to skip the show and tell segment this
week. I'm going to go to the original recipe formula the way I used to do it back in the
day because of a particular reason. Because we have an email to open up the show with that
Verbal was so excited to get. And I thought that that would be a nice way to start off the
show. So, let's start off the show with a good old-fashioned email.
Thanks, Stank. Well, actually, I just want to apologize for the sound quality and also the
time delay in getting the show out the last couple of weeks. Now, like, so what had happened
was last week, I had to go to my moon base because, like, something was messed up there.
I don't know, something about Canon's not working. So, what happened was I was there and we had to,
like, bounce the signal off a couple satellites. And the sound quality just kind of went down the
tubes from that. You know how that happens if you, like, bounce things off of, like, orbital
or whatever. I don't know. But basically, I'm back and we will be doing this show regularly and
the sound quality will hopefully be better. So far, so good. This is my first email that I ever got
for doing Bid and Rev Radio. And it's pretty nice. So, I will read it and share it with everyone.
It reads, in my honest opinion, Bid and Rev Radio sucks. You claim to talk all about the hacking scene,
but never talk about it. If hacking is fucking with your phone and setting up an asterisk server,
spelled A-S-T-R-I-X, I'm in the wrong scene. I mean, damn, over 150 episodes and you guys barely
touch on the subject of code breaking. All you guys talk about is news that can be found on FlashDot.
Maybe this might offend you, a host, or others, but prove me wrong. Talk about something technical.
So, explain how to break a database. Explain how to find the offset with your exploit code.
If you aren't going to talk about code breaking or exploitation, then please stop mentioning
the hacking scene. On a personal level, I bet you, Verbal, couldn't hack your way out of a paper bag.
All in all, you suck at the online. That is from an anonymous show listener.
His name is actually Samuel Manhattan, which doesn't really sound like a real name,
but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Well, first of all, Samuel, thanks for the feedback
and thanks for taking the time to listen to the show. Now, first of all, I've only been hosting
the show for two episodes. Keep in mind, it's a radio show and, you know, it's not a class about
hacking, so it's not our responsibility to teach you about SQL injections and buffer overflows.
But we've done those. For the record, I think I'll be hosting the show in the near future
and, you know, I'm going to try to put more technical content in it, but if you have any
more ideas for topics, please let me know. And keep in mind, though, this is a radio show,
so it's only voice, so anything too complicated requiring a visual aid is not going to happen.
Well, here's the thing, is this person obviously has not listened to a lot of the episodes of
the show because we have talked about SQL injection. I mean, I'm a database programmer
for a living. I mean, I can, I've done topics like that. We've done several code-based topics,
but you're absolutely right. They don't, they don't really translate well over voice only.
So sometimes it's hard to talk about those topics. We don't shy away from them, though.
We still have done several episodes. Gosh, I know just several jumped to mind that I've done
with knot theory. We've had acidists on the show that's talked, we've done some, a lot of coding
topics. We've had decius on the show. We've had just all kinds of people. We've had, you know,
one of the things that, that I really think that makes the show different and that sets us apart
and that we've always tried to do is that we do try to stay technical. You know, we, we always try
to avoid politics as much as possible and stay on technical topics as best we can. But again,
some of it doesn't translate well, but certainly it's there. Now there may have been like a run.
You might've gotten caught in a run where there were a few episodes in a row about asterisk or
something like that or whatever. But I think if you listen to the entire series,
or if you were at the fifth hope or sixth hope, seventh, how many hopes are they up to now?
Which hope did they have this year? I think it's the sixth. Well, I handed out at that episode of hope,
we did the first episode of season four and I handed out a kind of a, I called it the best of
binary revolution radio, but the subtitle says, well, the best we could do anyway. Um, and I picked
out a DVD set coming out with all the big radio episodes. We might have something forward to that.
We might have something. Thanks for putting me on the spot and making me commit, but, uh, we might be
coming out with something, but I mean, it's all freely downloadable from the website and, you know,
I suck up the bandwidth costs for all that. So feel free to hit the site and download every episode
that you want. And we have, the show notes have kind of fallen behind. I'm still waiting for some
volunteers of people who want to do show notes, but, um, show notes have fallen behind, but there's always
a title of every episode, a list of the, the co-hosts that are on that episode. So you can always go back
and find the ones that interest you and, and single out and find those specific, um, episodes and,
and maybe there'll be more to your liking. Um, I really don't know what else to say to that. I
mean, this is very obvious to me that that person has not listened to very many episodes. They've
probably listened to it for the last, I don't know, week, two weeks, maybe a couple months,
and they just haven't heard the entire body of work that we've put out there. But guess what?
This is season four. I don't know what episode we're up to already, but I mean, we must be doing
something right that we're still around this long. So, or something really wrong and we just ignore
everybody. Whatever. Whatever works. I have a question. Shoot. What does you suck at the
online mean? I don't know what that means. I don't know, but I like it. It's got a ring
to it. I'm going to start saying that now. You suck at the online. I mean, I think it's
like, I think it's like, I think it's like you on the soundboard. Yeah. I think that's
like you fail at the interweb or something. I'm not sure. You fail at the interweb. You suck
at online. At the online. The online. Wasn't there a, was it, was it a congressman or something
recently with the whole tubes thing where he was saying that he sent, he sent an, he
sent an internet. The internet is not a dumb truck. It is a series of tubes. Well, not
even that. The one line that said, where he said I, his secretary sent out an internet and
it didn't get back till five days later or something like that. What? Yeah. An email? Is
that what she meant? That was the stupidest. That guy is awesome. Those are the people
running our country, ladies and gentlemen. Had a little round of applause. Wonderful, wonderfully
intelligent people. All right. Well, let's do a couple other emails here. It's been a
couple of weeks, so I've, unfortunately I do have some backed up and I want to get out
of the way here. Uh, let's see. I'll do a couple of them real quick. Um, first one is from
Iman rogue who says, hi, something happened to the last two episodes of binary revolution.
It sounds like it's being recorded through a bad satellite connection. Upload errors.
Keep, keep up the good work. And going right along with that is a message from Oxquan, our
friend across the pond there, who says, hello, BinRev. I'm sorry to report that the sound
quality in episodes 160 and 161 is horrible. What has happened? Codec you've used is making
it sound like a garbage, making it sound like garbage and the file size isn't smaller thanks
to it. So can you please distribute it with better audio quality? Cheers.
Moonbase. Moonbase. Yes. You referred to that earlier. That's completely a verbal's fault.
But no, actually, um, 159 admittedly sucked. It totally sucked monkey balls. There's nothing
we can say about that, but, um, I guess, uh, Droops didn't have time to get his equipment
set up properly. So, um, we had to kind of scramble for that one apparently and that came
out the way it did and life goes on. Pretty bad 159. No debating that. Now, I did listen
to 160 and 161, though, and they weren't, um, they were certainly listenable. I didn't
think they were, like, bad exactly. They just weren't, um, the cleanest they could possibly
be and that's probably going to take a little time to do some sound checks and tweaking and
stuff like that. But keep in mind, too, that everybody has their own different way of
recording the show. Um, like, Verbal and I were kind of joking earlier because I'm going
back to my old school way with the microphone and the speakerphone. Very simple. Um, but
I like it because I get good sound quality because it's directly in front of me and I'm
getting the best, highest VoIP quality setting I can get coming through my phone. I can't
do anything about Verbal's voice. That's the way he was born. So I can't improve that
any.
Uh, if you listened to the last show, someone wrote in and said my voice was sexy, so I
think it's okay.
Actually, I did, I did hear that. You guys, you guys, uh...
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
You hooking up now or what?
You know it.
Did you say, are you guys, like, internet boyfriends?
Yeah, I think it's actually Ratchet, but, you know, whatever.
Well, he has to hide it behind a different name because he doesn't want people to know
it's him, but you just outed him. Good job.
Exactly.
Even though he did just get married a few months ago, but, yeah, that's irrelevant.
That's exactly why. Come on. Jesus Christ.
Oh, and, you know, the other thing, too, is, well, first of all, doing it with a microphone,
I guess it's a better sound quality, but I usually can only get one person on, maybe two
if I'm able to three-way another person in, but sound quality starts degrading and stuff
like that. But the way Black Ratchet and Strom started doing the show with the VoIP, you know,
going a little bit more new school with it. You're going to have variations in the quality
as they do the different compression algorithms and stuff like that, which they gave a great
presentation at DEF CON. Not this most recent one, but the one before that was 13. Is that
right?
Yes, that is correct.
The one that I spoke at was 13. 14 was the one just a month ago, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so they gave a great presentation there where they demoed and showed a bunch of the
compression algorithms and stuff, which was really cool. So it's going to take a little
time to kind of debug and iron that out, and I think that's what Buddy Droops is going
through. But the benefit is that you're going to have a whole lot more hosts on there.
You're running it off of an asterisk box, Mr. Manhattan, Mr. Manhattan. So you get a lot
more flexibility. So, and the ability to do live shows. Verbal, can I get an amen?
What?
I need to insert like some crickets chirping at that point.
All right, crickets chirping.
Well, and honestly...
Don't make me laugh. Okay, so the other thing, and I've said this on the show before
too, because this comes up once in a while, I like the fact that we have a different sound.
We've never, ever purported to be anything more than some hackers making do with the equipment
they got, working things out software-wise, hardware-wise. That's what hackers do. One of
the many things, along with asterisk and... What else did he say?
True turntables and a microphone?
Yeah, that's what it was. Something like that. And it's not all about code... He wants
us to do code... And never mind, forget that guy. But yeah, we're not in this giant building
in New York City, where we have the soundproof studio, and all the fancy microphones, and
the little swinging from the ceiling, and all this racks of equipment, and we don't have
a monthly beg-a-thon for you to buy us new equipment, so we sound the same. We are...
We do. I probably have to start talking like this, you know what I'm saying?
Well, well, WNBC.
Actually, we might be picked up by NPR next month, but I'm not sure. I have to talk to those
guys. But we'll be coming right after some show about rice, I think.
Well, you know what? I'm still going to say fuck. So NPR's going to have to have their
finger on the edit button.
It worked for Howard Stern.
I love NPR as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pull back or hold back on anything
just for any terrestrial radio of any kind. But, yeah, I should send Howard a letter and
see if I can get on the Howard Stern channel.
You should. XM Radio.
Wouldn't that be awesome? Serious. Serious. Not XM. Serious.
Oh, serious. Yeah. Straight to your brain.
Yeah. So, yeah, we're not doing the beg-a-thons every freaking month, begging you for money
for equipment and rent and all that kind of good stuff. So, yeah, you take what you get.
We do try to make good quality. Occasionally, there's going to be mistakes. Again, 159 was
one of those mistakes. 160 and 161, to me, I thought they were perfectly listenable. They
may not have been what we're used to, but I thought they were perfectly listenable. And
again, it gives it that feel of being a hacking show. It's an underground thing that we're
doing however we have to. I mean, you know, what if we're doing, sometimes we can do a
show from cell phones where you get even less quality, especially in the United States, but
that's a whole other rant. And we'll get not theory on for that rant because I know how
much he loves that topic. But anyway, let's stop beating that topic to death. Let's do a
couple more emails because these are kind of long, but I'm going to read them as quickly
as possible and move on with life. Okay. Next email comes from Bel Narlo. Does that sound
right?
Yes, I think that's how you say it.
Bel Narlo. I'm going to say it with an accent. It sounds Italian. Bel Narlo.
Bel Narlo. Hiya all. Just wanted to reply to Stank's question regarding how we see how
the revolution is going. I figured as a new addition to the whole scene, I might have something
useful to say. Anyways, I only recently stumbled onto BinRev and Phonomicon and Hacker Voice.
I live in the UK. We have a lot of listeners in the UK, by the way. So within the last year,
I figured out that A, hacking isn't bad. B, I am in fact a hacker. And C, there is a great
community out there with loads of people willing to help. I'm actually going to interrupt the email
a little bit here just to add a little bit to each one of those. A, hacking isn't bad necessarily.
I think anybody would be naive to say that there aren't some people out there doing bad things
in the name of hacking because that's how hacking gets the bad name. But real hacking isn't bad.
That's absolutely true. B, I am in fact a hacker. I think a lot of people would be surprised that
they are able to say that. And C, a great community out there with loads of people willing to help.
Actually, we're going to touch on that on our closing comments, something along those lines.
So I'll hold off on that. But yes, there is a great community out there. But you really have to dig
through a lot of shit to find it sometimes. There is also a part of this community that's not as
supportive as I would like it to be. So that's where Binary Revolution kind of stands out and
separates itself from a lot of that negativity. So we are glad that you found us and you're welcome
to participate and stick around. So anyway, let me jump back to his email here. And he goes on to say,
As I said, I needed to learn first that in fact I was a hacker or for that matter what the definition
of a hacker is. I too was brainwashed by the media. From several of the hacker media streams and the
BinRev radio stream, I figured out there was a community out there for me. I decided to join the
BinRev forums and visit the IRC channel once in a while. I was welcomed immediately and made to feel
at home. See people, this is why we try to tell people in IRC, even though it's IRC, you can't be a dick to
people. You know, this is an impression that you give off of BinRev and what we're about and what
I'm about. And I don't want to reflect poorly on the revolution by having a couple assholes in there.
And same thing with the forums. That's why people get banned. I'm sorry. Life, that's how it goes,
you know. Anyway, he goes on to say, I keep interrupting his email here. He says, I still haven't
given back to the hacker community as I feel that even though I've been a Unix admin for years,
I am, quote, subpar, unquote. I still reply to posts on the various hacker forums on the subjects
I feel comfortable with, but that is about it. I have, however, been inspired to give back to the
user community at large. As such, I've started with a friend, a podcast aimed at the users. And I'm
constantly contemplating subjects for TWAT radio, but haven't found one yet. So basically, I want to say
the community you guys helped to build, welcome me in, and has inspired me to, in turn, pass on my
knowledge in the areas I feel confident in. Keep up the great show, and I'm sure I and people like
me will invest more in the community that has given us so much already. Thanks loads.
Thank you very much for that email, Bernardo. I think you hit it right on the head. The point of
the revolution is that if we each share our knowledge and what we're good at, and I've said
many times we're not all good at everything. Some would say that I'm not good at anything. Whatever
works for you. But by sharing what we do know and what knowledge we do have, that's what makes the
community grow, and that's exactly what the revolution is. We started with a very small core group of
people with FinRev, and it grew as we shared, and it grew as we shared and learned from others, and it
grew to the point where now everybody's sharing and everybody's helping everybody, and that is what the
binary revolution is all about, and you've got it completely. Verbal, you feel me on this or what?
No, I completely agree with you. I mean, whatever you just said. No, but seriously, though, like you said, I'm glad you found us, and if you don't have a subject for TWAT Radio or if you want to participate and don't know what's the best way to go about it, just go in RSC, find me or anyone else in the DPP, and then ask us what there is to do. We always have things going on.
So, you know, just ask, and I will give you something to do.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And actually, on the topic of IRC, quickly, because he did mention it in here, if you do, any listeners out there, first of all, you're welcome to come to the IRC network. We have a very active channel. There's always 40 to 50 people in there at any given time, and easily half of them are chatting. I mean, there's always people idling that come and go, but there's easily, you know, a lot of half the room chatting.
Chatting about something or other, or having emo day, or whatever fun we feel like having.
Don't like fun of emo kids, you ass.
Oh, man. Just because you come in and somebody, you know, people might treat you like a dick, or they might be rude to you, or they might be mean. Keep in mind that it is IRC. We are not, and never have been, and never will. We're not going to try to impose a bunch of rules in IRC. IRC is what it is. It's the wild west of the internet. It's the way we've described it, and I think that's an apt description.
So, we're not going to completely control anything, or make a bunch of rules. With the forum, we do. That's a little bit different. But with the IRC, we're pretty much going to let people go until they cross certain lines of dropping docs, or illegal activities of some kind, attacking the server or our users. That's when we'll cross a different line.
But for the most part, take everything with a grain of salt, and understand that only the channel operators, only those people at the top, are the people that are really going to speak for BinRev, or speak for the channel in any way.
So, if you ever have any problems with other people, that's the ones you would need to contact. Those are the ones that you can trust, and that will treat you with respect in the channel.
So, keep that in mind, that don't let one jerk, or one asshole in the channel ruin your experience.
And just one other thing.
So, I am one of the IRC Ops, and if you have a problem, just come to me, and I will deal with it.
I mean, definitely, there are ass fucks in the channel, but I'm not, you know, we're not in the business of banning, or kicking people, or talking people, or recommending them for not being nice to you.
That's right.
You're going to have to deal with it.
But if something, you know, that you feel is, you know, messed up is happening, just send me an email, or whatever, and I will deal with it.
Absolutely right. Deal with it as best we can, anyway.
And you've always got ignore. You've always got slash ignore.
So, we can help you learn how to use the slash ignore function, too.
All right.
And the only other thing in this email I wanted to kind of mention, too, was that his point that he, you know, he discovered or realized that he is, in fact, a hacker.
And I really, honestly, and truly believe that some people are hackers, and they don't even know it.
They don't recognize it.
I know it sounds kind of probably different than the definition of hacker traditionally, of a complete computer expert or a complete, I don't know, outside subversive, try to break the computer, try to push the boundaries.
Yes, that's all true, and it's all accurate.
But I think anybody that thinks outside of the lines, anybody that's not limited to the way that they think about things or the way they view things, anybody who doesn't accept no for an answer, to me, that is the hacker mindset.
So, I think a lot of people have it.
They may not be, quote, computer hackers, or they may not be traditional hackers, or they may not be active in the hacking community.
But if you've got that way of thinking, I would argue, and I would argue pretty heavily, that you have what it takes to be a hacker.
You have the makings of a hacker, and could easily become an active member of the hacking community.
I've seen and met people that had no idea and no clue and no interest in hacking until I've sat and talked to them and taught them about what hacking is and is not.
And I've given speeches to kids.
I've given speeches to businesses and stuff like that where I explain those things, what it is and what it is not, why we do things and why this stuff happens.
And, you know, of course, mention the media definition and how inaccurate it is and things like that.
And people actually suddenly have their eyes open and they realize, you know what, I think outside of the box sometimes.
I try to think of ways to do things differently.
That, you know, doesn't make me a bad person.
It doesn't make me an evil hacker.
A lot of people have that mentality, and it's not a bad thing.
So, grasping, what I'm trying to say is feel your inner hacker.
Feel your inner hacking soul.
All right, enough with the hippie crap.
One more.
I mean, so for me, like, I'm actually personally, I'm, like, really afraid of the word hacker.
Not afraid, but, like, I just don't like to use it because I don't know what it means.
I mean, it's like fuck or douchebag.
Like, what does that mean?
You know, like, I call people those things all the time.
Well, when a man and a woman...
So, I just try not to even use that word, and, like, I mean, to me, it doesn't mean anything.
I mean, there are so many definitions, and, like, people, like, fighting over it.
It's just retarded.
That's my opinion, anyway.
Well, the word fuck verbal is when a man and a woman love each other very, very...
You know what?
We'll do that offline.
We'll take that after the show.
With the bee penis and the butterfly vagina.
The birds and the bees.
Yeah, we'll do all that.
Oh, the bird vagina.
I'm sorry.
Douchebag, you're on your own for that one.
I'm not helping with that one.
I'm not touching that.
I've got such a rude joke I'm holding back about a particular person in IRC, but I'm not going to go there.
I'm going to go on to our next email instead.
Our next email comes from Sid, C-I-D, who says,
Droops and Stank.
Okay, this is not for you, Verbal.
You can't listen to this.
Dark.
Droops and Stank.
I just listened to episode 160, and it really hit me in the balls.
Sorry about that.
I mean, it's not like I've been in the forums or IRC bitching and stuff, but on that same note, I haven't really done anything to actually help the revolution, and that sucks.
It sucks because I really believe in this binary revolution, and I've gotten so much from this community over the years.
I feel like a sponge.
I've been soaking up knowledge and info and culture and entertainment from you guys right from the start almost.
RFA, BinRev, HackTV, Infonomicon, TWAT, all of it.
I soak this shit up.
You guys have been a constant source of information and inspiration to me for a long time, and I feel like I haven't given back anything of real substance.
So, sure, I've turned a few people on to the show.
This is a little tough to read, which I'll explain in just a second.
I've turned a few people on to the show, but as Dool used to say, I haven't, quote, put up or shut up.
And Ep 160 really reiterated that point to me.
I do have a lot of ideas, whether good or bad, and I can feel this fire within me, but I've never really let that fire out like I should.
I have, and I have worked on some small projects, but again, I haven't given back enough for what I've received from this community.
And I'm going to do what I can to change that.
You've got a very good thing here, and I don't want to just take it for granted.
I'll stop my rant now, but I wanted to tell you thanks for everything.
And sorry about the split mail and weird formatting.
I'm on an old phone on the road.
Later.
Sid, thank you very, very much for this email.
And again, the cool, first of all, the very cool part of this message, it was four separate emails that I got.
Each one short and had dot, dot, dot, or has continued.
I combined them all together because he sent this from his cell phone.
So first of all, that was really cool to get a message like that.
I think that was a first for BinRev, or at least for me on BinRev.
So that alone makes this a cool email.
But there was something specific that I wanted to point out in this email, and that is that you mentioned that all you have done is turn a few people on to the show.
Well, that's a good thing.
That is a very good thing.
We've never been the type of people to go out and promote our stuff outside of the BinRev community.
We really haven't.
Now, we've been accused of doing a lot of cross-promoting within our own projects and sites.
You know, we'll come on the radio show and probably repeat probably too many times some of our projects.
But we're trying to get people interested in them and getting people aware of the projects.
But we've never really gone outside of the BinRev community and posted on other forums or other sites too much.
We let the site live and die on its own merits, and we let it get Googled and people will search.
And if we've got the information that's valid and floats to the top of Google or whatever your search engine of choice is,
we figure that that's the best testament to the site and the content of the site.
So we've never really wanted to go out there.
So we do hope now that if people do like the show, that they'll go out and spread it on their own.
If they're motivated enough to do that, if they want to give back and help us promote the show and promote,
again, I say the word promote as though this is some sort of business or something,
but trust me, I'm losing every bit of money I put into this business.
We're not making any money, so all this is free.
I pay for the bandwidth, which is fine.
So go out there and spread the word.
I'm totally okay with that.
If anything, I want more people to learn.
I don't mind paying if it will help this community grow.
I will come out of pocket with my own hard-earned cash.
Okay, sometimes not as hard as other times earned, but anyway.
I'll come out of my pocket with cash if it will help this community grow in a positive way
and get more people involved in a positive way in producing things.
So I'm totally for that.
And if someone feels either motivated enough or they just want to contribute or they want to help out,
that's one of the things that you can do.
Again, we don't do it ourselves, but anyone who goes out and spreads the good words about our projects
and the things that we're doing, Lord knows that there's plenty of people that go out there
and spread the bad things.
You know, people always want to complain and talk and bitch loudly,
but when it's something they enjoy and they like, they do it quietly.
So, yeah, I see all the things out there that people post and they'll go out and cuss us
and send an email to Verbal about how much he sucks and he's only done two episodes of the show.
Hey, that email was quality.
It's better than yours.
Come on.
Yeah, so you know what?
So seriously, thank you for at least spreading the word about it.
And, you know, you contribute what you can, however you can.
If that's going out and promoting the show and bringing someone in, you've helped the community.
You really have.
If you go out and bring five people in or even two people or one person back
who registers and learns from the site, you've helped the community grow.
Sometimes, I guess to put it short in a way that I tried to explain to someone else before in IRC,
sometimes you can help the community by just shutting the fuck up.
Don't bitch and complain.
Just go out and either support it or don't support it.
And if you support it, go out there, spread the good words, and people will come and enjoy it.
And sometimes that's the best thing that you can do to support the community.
So if you like it, great.
If you don't like it, great too.
All right, so that's enough email verbal.
We've got some topics to talk about, right?
We're, let's see, a third into the show, I would guess here.
So let's do some main show topics, shall we?
Yes, that's a good idea.
All right, well, let's do, first of all, since you and Noelani started a segment last episode,
not last week, but last episode, why don't we get her on the line?
Is that cool with you and continue on with that?
Yeah, definitely, she's ready.
A little Geek Love Radio action here.
Okay, so hold on here.
I'm going to, let's see.
I know how I'm going to do this.
I'm not going to stop recording.
I'm going to go, and I'm going to do, let's see, take a little feedback.
How about that?
Okay, can you hear me?
All right, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to dial and flash her in and then put you back.
So you're off of speakerphone right now.
So hang on just a second, and I'm going to keep talking so that you guys don't get dead air.
And I am going to flash over to another line.
I am going to dial the super secret magic number here to Noelani.
And no, you cannot have it.
It is totally private.
And I am going to get her on the phone.
And it's ringing right now.
So this is what's called stalling.
I could have edited it out, but you know what?
Once again, we're a hacking show, so we're just going to kind of keep going with it.
And Noelani, are you on the line?
Okay, hang on here.
We're not stopping to do this.
We're doing this on the air, live, to add to the little, you know, the excitement factor.
So hang on.
Let me flash Verbal back on.
Hopefully.
Cross your fingers.
And Verbal, you should be back.
And we have Noelani.
Okay, so hold on.
I'm going to put you both back on speakerphone.
And some nasty little feedback.
But okay, are we all back on the show together?
Verbal, are you there?
Check, check.
All right.
Noelani, are you there?
Hello.
Oh, I am so fucking elite.
I have mastered.
That is hot.
I have mastered the art of three-way calling.
That's all it takes, I guess.
In your face, Sean.
In your face.
And I didn't need asterisks to do it.
Cool.
Okay, okay, so I tell you what, I'm going to shut up for a little bit.
I'm going to have my sweet iced tea.
I'm going to shut up and I'm going to let you guys continue on with the show.
Okay.
All right.
Are we ready?
Whatever.
We're recording.
We have not stopped recording the entire time.
Okay, let's do it.
All right.
Okay.
What do you want me to say?
What?
Nothing.
I'm going to talk.
Stop saying stop.
All right.
Well, now we have Noelani joining us.
If you remember the last episode, we started talking about, you know,
how kind of what a girl is looking for and a geek guy or how, you know,
you would approach someone in a certain situation and, you know,
engage in a conversation and, you know, hopefully get a date out of it.
Now, for you guys, I went to the Apple store.
Right.
You know, the thing is most of the people who listen to this show probably
are not too comfortable with the club or bar scene, you know, or whatever.
So we try to find some other avenues where they can meet people who share
some common interest they have.
And how many of you guys out there went to the Apple store after listening to
the last episode?
And if it works or whatever, you know, send us an email and loves to know about it.
So this week we have Noelani back and we're going to talk more, a little bit more about
that and continue with, you know, topics along the same line.
So welcome back, Noelani.
Hey, what's up, guys?
Thank you so much.
So actually, before we really begin, I have a question for you.
So last time you were saying, okay, you want to go to the Apple store and, you know,
if someone's, you know, looking at, like, say, a copy of Final Cut Pro,
then a way you can engage them is by kind of, you know, not feigning,
but saying you have a mutual interest and then go from there.
But recently I was in a grocery store.
Now, I've heard from, you know, from whatever before that the supermarket is a pretty good way to pick up girls.
But I saw this girl that was, like, really cute, and she seemed to be, like, looking at me
and, like, giving me the vibe, but I had no way to kind of go and talk to her, you know?
So it's, like, I'm not going to say, hey, so, uh, are you eating food?
Right.
So why don't you help me out and tell me what I should do in that situation?
Well, what aisle were you in?
I was actually...
I didn't say a word.
I held back a very, very funny joke.
I didn't say a word.
I was in the spices aisle with, like, the pepper and all that other stuff,
and she, I think she was getting salt or something innocuous.
So I guess, like, one of the things you could do is you could act like you're buying salt
and accidentally drop a jar of salt on her.
What is she, a snail?
Okay.
Okay, hold on.
Let's modify.
Let's say I don't approach her in the salt aisle.
Let's say I, you know, passionately stalk her a little bit,
and where would be the ideal place to engage in some conversation?
You know, I think the ideal place would probably be in, like, the produce section
because you can act, like, totally clueless when you're trying to pick out produce,
and you can say, you know, I really need some help.
I'm not sure what kind of mangoes to get.
Should I get the hard mangoes or the soft mangoes?
Go with the soft.
Okay.
Hard mangoes or soft mangoes?
I will write that down.
Verbatim.
But those are onions.
I don't care.
Answer my question.
Okay.
So next time I will definitely try that.
So pretend, like, I don't know what I'm doing, which is true, and then ask them for help.
Okay.
Now, let's kind of get into more of the mechanics of kind of not picking someone up,
but, you know, like, that whole area of, like, the pre-dates,
working up to actually asking them out.
Like, I hear so many things about, like, proper way for, like, eye contact
and, like, how to act, body language and, like, something about touching them.
And, you know, not in, like, a weirdo way, but, like, do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, I know what you're saying.
All right.
So tell me how I should act.
So I know how you shouldn't act.
Okay.
We have a friend that does this really intense staring game.
Okay.
And I think, like, the intense staring is probably not a good thing to do
because when a guy intensely stares at me, I get really creeped out and...
Damn it.
No staring.
...and act like I'm on the phone.
Like, intense staring, like, I'm totally undressing you with my eyes staring.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, so...
You know the difference, right?
Instead of, like...
Well, no, I mean, maybe not.
Do you have a guideline for, like, time?
Like, I know that's kind of hard, but if not time, then kind of some guide to help.
You know, if I, you know, it's like I don't know what I'm doing.
Wait a minute.
So I don't know when is too much.
Wait a minute.
I think I know what you're saying here.
There's a difference between when you give them that...
When you look her up and down, I think that's where you're crossing a different line.
Or where you lick your teeth or something weird in the whole process, you know?
Yeah, licking the teeth is not a good idea.
Yeah.
But, you know, I mean, a few seconds...
I mean, even just the...
The flirting that I've experienced, the stuff that's been really successful with me, has
been, like, you know, a split-second look and then, like, when I feel someone's looking
at me, I kind of look at them and they, like, eye contact for a split-second and then look
away and start doing something else, you know?
And it's something that happens around, like, over the course of a few minutes.
Okay.
And then, you know, it's not an intense stare for ten seconds and whoever looks away first,
then you will show them pure domination.
It's like the blinking game.
No, it's not a contest.
That's the first thing.
And then...
So, okay, so how do I know...
Okay, so let's say I'm sitting somewhere or standing somewhere and I'm, like, looking
around, seeing, you know, who is, you know, interested or interesting.
How do I know if someone is interested?
Let's say I'm looking at them and, you know, like, I look at them and they're not...
like, cringing.
There's no grimaces.
But, you know, how do I know whether I should take it to the next step and actually go and
talk to them about something?
I think what I've seen with most girls and just for myself is kind of a, you know, a stare
back and forth type game.
And I try to play it off like I'm talking to my friends and, you know, smiling and then
I'll look over and smile at them, kind of, and then go back and talk to my friends again
and go from there.
And then if a guy...
It's like a club scene, which I hate club scenes, but if it's like a club scene, the
guy will, after five or ten minutes, come up and say, hey, you want to dance or can I
buy you a drink?
And I'll say, sorry, I'm married.
But hopefully, you know...
Well, I can probably try that at the Apple store.
I'll have to play something on the, on the test iPod though.
But okay, definitely we'll try that.
Okay.
So what about the other aspects?
Like, let's say I'm actually talking to them now.
You know, like, what, what are we talking about besides salt and, and hard or soft mangoes?
And like, how, how do I act?
Because I mean, like, let's, you know, let's, let's say for the sake of argument that I'm
not naturally comfortable talking to women.
And I don't, you know, you know, as far of a stretch as that may be, let's, let's, for
the sake of this segment, imagine that we're true.
All right.
Which is not true.
Verbal is like the woman master.
All right.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not true.
Okay.
All right.
You're the man master.
What do you want?
All right.
So I think, um, one of the things you have to do is just pretend like you're talking to
one of your friends, because if you are so focused that this is a really hot girl, then
you're going to really stumble over your words and be really nervous.
And the, the natural flow of conversation is just not going to work.
There's going to be pauses and stuff because you're thinking so hard because she's so immensely
hot.
But, so I think, you know, just keeping with the, she's a friend, I don't have to worry
about things, anything, there's nothing riding on this so that the flow of conversation is
more natural.
That would definitely be a good point.
Laughing at her jokes, if she makes any, is a good thing.
Okay.
Well, if they're not funny.
Yeah.
Well, if it's not funny, then you use your cool acting skills and you laugh anyway.
All right.
Checking acting skills and ugly friends.
Okay.
Um, okay.
So if anyone wants to practice with me, I guess you can send me an email.
Um, that will work.
Okay.
So what's with this touching?
There's a word for it.
It's like, you know, some, some, something.
Yeah.
I can't remember.
It's like, I've heard it called like flirting touching.
It's like very delicate touches and it's okay.
Let me, tell me the secret of that.
Cause I don't know what's going on with that touching thing.
I think, on a very special episode of Binary Revolution Radio, we distinguish between good
touch and bad touch.
Hey, I'm taking notes.
This is important stuff.
What's a woman talking?
So I think one of the things is, um, it really has to be timed right.
And one of the things that I do when I'm talking is I do tend to touch people when I talk and
I try to time it with like, you know, a compliment and my touching is probably going to be different
than a flirting touch, but you can add on to the whole touching thing.
So say we're talking and we're discussing something and you say, you know, you wrote this awesome program and I say,
oh, that's fantastic.
And I put my hand on you.
Can you tell me more about it?
Now, if I was flirting with you, I would like continue my hand to like go down the arm a little and then release.
So it's not just a solid touch.
It's a lingering touch.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
That is so hot.
Oh, sorry.
Um, no.
So are you saying that guys should do that also?
Yeah, I think that it really, there's a fine line of when to touch and when not to touch.
And I think if the girl is giggling and laughing at your jokes and whatnot,
and you've had more of a conversation like this is, you've done the pickup and you're like on your first date type thing.
Okay.
I think you are allowed to linger touch.
But if you're in the Apple store, just picking up on her, talking about Final Cut Pro, I don't think the linger touch would be as good.
Okay.
First date, linger touch.
Got it.
Are there any other types of touching I should be aware of?
Well, I mean...
Besides the obvious.
There's the whole like, should you kiss on the first date?
Should you go to home, have a home run on the first date?
I really think it depends on the woman.
You mean have sex, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Gotcha.
Go ahead.
Equal sex.
Okay.
I think it really depends on the woman and how she responds to the linger touch.
If she like cringes when you touch her, you're probably not going to make it to home base on the first date.
All right.
This sports analogy thing has got to go.
Okay.
Home plate, not home base.
Okay.
If your program compiles, that's sex.
Module completed.
Okay.
Now, how do you know if someone you asked on a date knows...
I mean, like, how do you know if they're up for, like, not a one-night stand, but, like, for having sexual relations on the first date?
Or if, you know, it's just kind of a goodnight kiss type of situation?
Just from the touching?
I...
It could be just...
I send a lot of messages out with my touching.
Okay.
But, you know, I'm married, so I'm allowed to do that with my husband.
Oh, with your husband.
Okay.
With my husband.
Gotcha.
But I think it really depends, like, how she kisses.
Because if it's, like, hey, I'm going to kiss you on the cheek, then you're probably not going to be having sex.
No program compiling there.
Okay, okay, okay.
What?
Okay, okay.
How about if after the date or whatever the planned event, I say, okay, where are we going next?
And then she can either say your place, which is pretty obvious what's going to happen, or my place, right?
Yeah.
Now, when she says my place, does that mean my place, or dot, dot, dot, or just my place, period?
It really depends on how she says my place, and if it's followed by, like, she's grabbing her crotch, or it's, you know, my place.
I mean...
My place and then vomit, or...
I think for me, if I'm inviting someone, if I'm specifically inviting someone to my place, I want to do something.
I don't know if it's sexual, but, like, going all the way, but I want to make out with some depth, I guess.
Because, I mean, if you're just going to drop her off, and, you know, you'll kind of know, like, at the door.
If she's like, yeah, let's go to my house, and then she's like, all right, see you later, and gives you a kiss on the cheek, then you know that that's what's going to happen.
Yeah.
So, it's kind of, you kind of, like, got to read what she's saying, and how she's saying it, if she's touching you.
There's all these factors that come into play.
I mean, there's no specific...
Algorithm?
Yes.
There's no specific algorithm.
That sounds hard.
I think we've said on the show before that female of the species is unhackable.
The only thing in the world that's unhackable.
I don't know.
My husband's going to be down pat.
Okay, okay.
Okay, I've, on this subject, I have one last question.
Because I've been debating about this, just people, and if someone asks you to come up for a nightcap, does that mean they want to have sex with you?
Because I'm saying yes, and some girls argue that's a no, and I disagree with them.
I would have to say it depends on the girl.
For me, if I'm saying, hey, let's go out for a nightcap, it's a booty call.
All right.
But, you know, somebody else might be saying, let's go out for a nightcap because I need you to buy me alcohol because I'm depressed.
I'm sorry, was there a difference there?
Okay.
All right, let's change the subject for a little bit.
The final thing I want to cover tonight is about online dating.
Now, as you know, there are all these sites coming up.
I mean, they're already up, like MySpace, OkCupid, and, you know, whatever else is available, Match.com, blah, blah, blah.
Like, is that a good place to meet people and, like, to find them?
Because to me that seems a lot easier, you know?
They're all there with pictures and profiles, and you can just browse through them while you're, like, watching TV.
Does that actually work?
You're all, no, no, no, no, no.
No?
No.
No, no, I think for certain people it definitely does work.
I think that if I were to get into the dating scene again because my husband died some horrible death, that I would definitely not do the club scene.
I would not go out and try to find people at coffee shops.
I would do the Match.com thing because I don't have time to sit there and do small talk.
I don't have time, you know, it's like I'm too old.
To play games.
Let's just get it over and done with, all right?
This person meets all my requirements intellectually, socially, you know, romantically.
All right, let's send them an email and go from there.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
It's really non-pressure.
Wait a minute.
I've got to step in here for a second.
Hold on.
Doesn't that take all the beauty and the romance out of the whole process when you're basically going down a checklist?
Okay, she looks like this and she's into this.
Oh, but she's not a non-smoker, but she likes to do – come on.
Doesn't that take away the magic or something?
You know what?
I think the magic really doesn't always happen.
All that stuff that happens in movies doesn't happen.
There's no fireworks?
There's still fireworks.
If you meet a person on Match.com, you meet in person, there's still going to be fireworks.
You just overpass all that first junk.
I mean, I have to say one of the best things about being married is I don't have to go through all that crap of dating.
It's so hard to date sometimes.
Okay, so you would recommend people going to –
I would recommend it.
But it's definitely for a different type of person.
You know, some people want to do the whole mystery firework thing.
And you know what?
That's cool.
And I know there's still a lot of people out there who want to do that.
But some people just don't have time to do that.
They're busy working and doing volunteer stuff and just doing a lot of stuff.
And this is a great alternative for them to meet people and not even –
Okay.
You know, just people that –
One last thing.
All right.
Now, the art of the first message, how – like, you find someone and you message them.
Like, I know what all the bad messages are, you know?
All right, you tell me.
Like, do you want to do it, et cetera, et cetera?
But how do you, you know, send them a message that is going to lead to something?
I think being, like, as a woman, I would want, if I was on one of these sites,
the guy to actually read through my profile and take some time and effort to, like,
see the type of things that I like.
So, if I have on there, you know, I really dig volunteer work or nonprofit work,
then I would hope that he would take the time and say, you know,
I see here that you do a nonprofit work.
That's really great.
You know, we need more people like you or something of the sort.
Tell me about your nonprofit work.
You know, you looked very interesting in your profile.
I want to know more about you, X, Y, and Z, that kind of stuff.
Not – you have a nice rack, you know?
That's, like, three or four emails down the line.
Okay, read, email, and chain – okay, got it, got it.
Now, verbally, are you going to keep us up to date on the show?
Thank you for coming on again.
Well, we need to stop here, though.
If anybody has any questions or anything like that that they want to send to me,
they can do it by sending it to noelani at spy.net.
And that is N-O-E-L-A-N-I at spy.net.
All right.
Well, thanks for coming on.
I'm sure we'll have you on again.
As always, it is lovely to have you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for being on the show.
Thank you for having me.
And I will talk to you guys soon.
Okay.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
All right.
And let's zip very quickly.
Verbal, you there?
Yes.
Okay.
Let's zip very quickly into some technical topics on this episode of the show,
especially since you got hate mail about not having technical stuff.
Hey, whatever.
Fuck that guy.
You had a topic that you did want to talk about on the show tonight in addition to that, correct?
I do.
Well, so I mean, okay, this has always been a thing of mine, but I have a question.
And I'm wondering, you know, I'm, so recently I've been emailing a lot with, say, you and the other people in the bin rev community.
And no one uses encryption.
Like, I mean, I know it's not, like, super top secret stuff, but do you use encryption for any of the emails you send from a day-to-day basis?
Well, yes and no.
I guess no, if you say the emails I send on a day-to-day basis, no.
But it depends on what the content of the email is.
I have a PGP key, but I don't bother really sharing it and putting it out there a lot and using it unless there's something I really, really, really feel like I need to encrypt because I don't want it to be seen by prying eyes.
And quite frankly, that's very rare that I have something like that because if I do, I have other ways of communicating that.
Quite frankly, I'm still a fan of the good old-fashioned phone call or meet face-to-face with somebody.
That way there is no interception of anything, at least face-to-face.
You can't intercept the phone call.
Well, I corrected myself, but face-to-face anyway.
It's very difficult to, unless you're over somewhere with a boom microphone zooming in on a face-to-face meeting of some kind.
And you know what? Usually, even then, it's not that big a deal.
Or if I've got to send a password or something like that, I'll usually make it temporary, and I'll tell the other person, you change it immediately.
I mean, okay, so this is my thing.
Well, and I'm sorry. One other thing, though, Verbal, to keep in mind, too, is that whenever possible, I'm connected on my end through a VPN or I log in through an SSH connection or something like that.
So that from my end, all of my traffic is encrypted.
So if you come from an unprotected location, that's your problem.
Okay, okay.
Right?
See, my thing is this.
I'm not saying you can do something questionable, but if at some point you get subpoenaed for your key and you don't give it, you know,
and like 99% of your email is unencrypted and, you know, you don't give your key for that last remaining percent of your email, that's going to look bad on you, you know?
Well, that's a good point.
The thing is I am always kind of of the opinion that you should always practice security regardless, you know, of what it is that you're doing just to kind of get in the habit.
And also, you know, like at DEF CON, there was a talk on the plausible deniability toolkit that people were giving.
And, you know, they're saying, like, okay, if you have a process for doing something, say, wiping your hard drive, don't fucking do it when the guys with shotguns are banging on your door, you know?
Then afterwards, you just look guilty, you know?
Like, if you want to set that up, do it every single week so then you can say, well, I wipe my hard drive every single week, so, I mean, it's nothing new.
So, then, like, they can't do anything to you, and it's the same thing with encryption.
And, you know, a lot of people have this mentality that's like, well, I'm not doing anything important, so, you know, I don't need to encrypt my emails or I don't need to, you know, secure my host.
I'll just run Windows 2000 with no patches or whatever, you know?
Well, and, you know, maybe you don't care if your box gets taken over, but, you know, your box is probably in some botnet or, like, just being taken over by someone to download porn or, like, to host whatever the fuck, right?
Well, I can always use more porn.
Well, it's, I mean, hey, it could be, it could be midget porn or, like, pyro-bestiality, necro-bestiality, like, flaming dead cats and stuff.
You don't want to see that shit.
That is so hot.
Literally.
Well, maybe for you, but I'm saying I don't want to see that shit, and I'm just saying you should always practice security by default because, I mean, I, I mean, that's just a rant.
No, you're, you're, you're very, you're absolutely right.
I mean, you have a very good point.
It's like, for, it's not only, and not only encryption, like, you know, the whole plausible deniability thing is exactly what you described.
Like, for example, I do wipe my hard drive every week.
It's scheduled to run every Sunday night.
I have, you know, all that we've talked about in the show before that gets wiped out, all my free space, and, you know, some privacy aspects.
So I do have that aspect in place.
I could probably be a little bit better on my email about that.
I should probably do that on everything.
But I think I've also, we've talked on the show about, we've had a couple shows about encryption the entire show, and one of the things that I mentioned, and I think keeps a lot of people away from it, and maybe you've got some suggestions here,
is the fact that it's still not easy for your everyday person to use.
I mean, if I could do it in such a way where inside of Thunderbird, or inside of even Outlook, or whatever your email client of choice is, if there was a simple checkbox that said, encrypt this with my key,
and I just have never found a good, easy-to-use plugin that makes it near invisible to use, I just haven't found it yet.
I'm sure there probably is one, I just haven't found it.
I would love somebody to tell me that.
Well, okay, so two things, right?
First of all, two things.
First of all, I'm not talking about, you know, regular people.
I'm talking about people listening to this show, and you should know how to use it.
And the second thing is, don't be lazy, because if you're lazy, you're just going to get fucked in the ass later.
And no one wants that.
I mean, just suck it up and do it, make it part of your routine, then you won't think it's hard.
I think that's easier said than done.
I haven't seen...
It is!
I mean, it's not supposed to be easy.
Like, you have to protect your own privacy, you know?
If it was easy, it would just be the way.
Well, you haven't sent encrypted...
And then everyone would do it.
You haven't sent those encrypted emails to me either, by the way.
What?
That's because I don't have any keys.
Secondly...
Secondly, okay.
Secondly, what about...
What about...
No, I'm...
A serious question.
I mean, what if...
I mean, the time that it takes to do that, you have to make a decision.
Something else is going to get sacrificed.
And, you know, I mean, it's easy to say that.
And I understand what you're saying.
Your point is very well taken, don't get me wrong.
But if we had to encrypt every email that you and I have sent in the past week, for example,
the show wouldn't have gotten done tonight, quite frankly.
It simply would not have gotten done.
That's just a fact.
I just...
I know that.
So there comes a point...
Frankly, I'm only speaking of myself personally.
Other people, if they want to make their own excuses, I'm only making my own bullshit excuse.
But...
Admittedly.
Admittedly so.
But you know what?
That's what I'm saying.
Even...
You're saying to the listeners of this show, they should be better than just your normal everyday person.
And you're not talking about them.
But I'm sorry.
I really think that if you can cater something to the everyday person, then you're going to get all of us using it as well.
Right now, you're only going to get those of us who are so concerned about every little thing that we send that I just don't really think it's...
I'm just trying to explain.
I think that's why a lot of people don't do it.
Whether I'm way off base, I guess our listeners should email us to radio at binrev.com and let us know what their reasons are for not using it.
But that's the way I feel.
I don't know if that's just me or what.
Okay, you know what I'm going to do?
Okay.
Everyone who is listening right now, email me at verbal at binrev.com and tell me what male client you're using.
And I will make a list of every single male client and how to use PGP or GPG or whatever and get that integrated for you.
Because there is software out there.
You may not know what it is or you may not think it's the easiest thing to use.
But tell me what you're using and I will put up a page somewhere that will explain to you how to integrate encryption with your email client.
Verbal, that makes me want to cry.
That's so beautiful.
That's right.
I'm getting reclipped.
Get some tissues for later.
Oh, okay.
I'm better.
I think that's a really cool thing you're volunteering to do right there.
I really do.
No problem.
I better get some effing emails.
Listen, let's go back to the little conversation.
I mean, you and I met across a crowded room at DEF CON and our eyes locked and we stared at each other for a good long time until I ran and jumped into your arms.
So that whole staring thing works fine.
Uh, yes.
Okay.
Just thought I'd throw that in there.
Uh, okay.
I just thought I'd derail the topic like this.
So you've got to be able to take these kind of things that are thrown at you and still go on with the talk.
Yeah, I'm fine.
Thanks.
You're traumatized.
The events might be a little skewed.
You're traumatized.
I'll post what really happened in the show notes.
Okay.
So, Labor Day weekend.
Yeah?
Just ended.
What did you do with your extra day of fun?
I'm recording this.
Do you travel?
I'm recording this fucking show.
Well, fuck you two.
I had family.
I had family in town.
I always forget to do when I'm traveling because I don't do it too often.
But whenever you go to the airport, you have to, like, pay some fee.
And I'm doing hand quotes, but you can't see it.
You have to pay some fee to use the internet.
And personally, I think that's pretty bullshit.
But I just wanted to remind everyone, there usually is a way around that.
Now, the way it works is when you go to the airport thing, to make it easy, they let you
log in to some web thing, and you can pay them via the web thing.
And, you know, they give you an access code and blah, blah, blah, blah, and you get on
the internet.
Now, the thing is, in order to have that initial page work, your computer has to be able to
find it.
So, long story short, most of the time, when you have that, what they need to do is let
DNS through the outside world.
Like, they can block everything else, but they usually let DNS through.
And if you went to Bruce Potter's presentation about two or three years ago at DEF CON, he
talks about tunneling IP over DNS, and that is something you should definitely do.
So, you know, just have that set up so whenever you go traveling, you'll have that with you.
Now, but the one thing is, if you do that, all of your IP packets are going to be encapsulated
in DNS packets, so no one's going to know what the fuck you're talking about.
So, what you need is somewhere out in the world, you need to be running a proxy server for all
of your traffic. So, what you need is, your client needs to speak IP over DNS, and you need to have
a proxy server, probably your house or whatever, that speaks IP over DNS, and have your computer
that you're running the proxy on do all the work for you.
Okay? So, have that set up, and next time you're in the airport, you won't be stuck without internet.
Now, the thing is, I wanted to segue into this concept of tunneling. Now, when he talks about,
you know, putting an IP packet inside DNS packet, you know, that is tunneling, and you hear tunneling,
you know, associated a lot with encryption and all this stuff, mostly VPN, and that is not,
you know, that is not just what tunneling is for. Tunneling is used for everything. So,
to give you a better idea of what actually happens, you know, when they do the quote-unquote
tunneling, I'll talk about how the OS actually deals with packets that it gets in. Okay?
So, you have a network stack, right? And you may not, you know, don't worry if you don't know
what the fuck I'm talking about, but you have a network stack, and from the application or whatever
you're sending the packet, you're sending data, and you have to tell it where to go, right? So,
there are all these, like, acronyms for, like, TCP and UDP and IP and IPsec and all this junk.
So, I'm going to try to clear up some of that stuff. Now, what happens is a packet, it's logically
divided into layers, and if you've heard, like, of the OSI layer, like the seven layer,
that is what it is referring to. Now, the seven layers is just kind of like a reference implementation,
and, you know, it's kind of a way to let people talk about the same thing with a common language,
and in real life, that doesn't actually happen. Like, not every single protocol stack has a neat
seven layers on it. Usually, they have the bottom four, definitely, but, and then after that,
you know, it depends on what the application is, and, you know, pretty much anything.
Now, you have the physical layer on the bottom, right? And that's, like, the hardwire.
Right.
So, we don't really care about that. Then you have the link layer, which is, like,
the Ethernet and all this trash. And now, the third layer is where we start to care. The third
layer is the IP layer. So, that is, you know, like, the end-to-end IP addresses, like, your 32-bit,
whatever. And that does not have the ports or anything else. That is one level. So, that's
layer three. Now, in layer four, you end up with what they call the transport. Now, in the transport,
you have TCP and UDP and a bunch of other stuff, and that is the thing with all the port numbers in
it and all that junk. So, it's a different layer of abstraction. Then, after that, you'll have,
like, the data, and depending on what application you're doing, you might have other headers.
But when the packet comes in, you have a data packet, and then you kind of hack the headers
on in, like, a reverse order. So, if you have, you know, some data that you want to send,
and you're sending out, like, a normal TCP stream, you put the TCP header in front first,
and then you put the IP header, you know, in front of that, and so on and so forth. So,
if you visualize two stacks, and, you know, that's why they call it a stack. You have, you start,
you're sitting in the top. You start, and when you send the data, you know, you go down the stack,
which, you know, it goes from layer four, three, two, one, and you put it in that order as you
traverse. So, after it goes out, the packet goes out, and you have those four headers on the data
that you want to send, on the wire, it's going to have them in that order, so that when it gets to
the other side, you have, you know, you kind of decapsulate it, or get rid of the header in the
same fashion, or I guess in reverse order, which you put it in. Okay? Right. So, that is how the,
you know, the headers work, and the headers contain information for, it's like a directive.
If it's the IP layer, it tells you where to run the packet to the next top and all that junk,
and if it's, like, the transport layer, then it tells you what port to send it to,
and all that stuff. So, when an OS gets a packet, you know, in the physical layer, like,
the OS is written with these layers logically separated out. So, once you get a packet,
the first bit of code that deals with that will strip away the first header, and it'll take all
the information it needs, and then from that point on, it'll know where to send the packet,
the data packet, you know, which function to call, or what other thing to pass it to.
So, each layer has really nothing to do with the layer previous. And the way they set that up
is so you don't write fucking ugly code and have all these interdependencies between the layers.
And, now, so you have tunneling, and we talked about, you know, IP over DNS a little bit.
Now, what that does is, let's say you have a regular DNS packet, okay? You have the DNS protocol stack,
you know, which is, like, the normal, you know, physical layer, link layer, whatever you're using,
and then you have, like, IP and then UDP. Or you can have TCP, too, but we're not going to get into that.
So, after the UDP layer, then you have the actual data. So, whether you're doing, you know,
like a fucking request, reply, or whatever, you know, that's the data. Now, what you do is
you replace that data with the actual IP header that you want to send. I mean, sorry,
the IP packet that you want to send. So, when you look at that packet, right, you're going to end up
having the physical link, your first IP and UDP layer. That's for the DNS packet. And after that,
where the data is supposed to be, you have more headers, and that's what encapsulation is about.
So, what happens is, at the receiving end, like your proxy, like, after you send that packet out,
that contains your, like, HTTP request or whatever you're doing. The proxy needs to know,
at that point, after it strips the DNS, IP, and UDP header, what to do with the next, all that stuff.
Because it's expected. So, if you just run it with the regular DNS code, it's going to expect to see
a DNS data packet, you know, of whatever format, I mean, of whatever DNS protocol that you're doing.
It's expecting to see that. So, if you pass in your packet to that, it's just going to throw up,
because it doesn't know what, why there is an IP header doing, you know, in there. And it's not
even going to know it's an IP header. It's just going to be like, this is not a DNS packet. I don't
know what to do with it. So, what I was saying earlier is that you need to have a special proxy
written. So, when you run the server and you get that, quote, quote, DNS packet, your servers knows
to say, oh, this is an actual, you know, actually an IP packet that I'm going to, you know,
relage something else. So, that's why you need that. And that's how VPN works. And that
is the topic of tonight.
Well, verbal, actually, I think that might have to be the topic of next week.
What?
I know you've been on.
Are we out of time?
Yeah, we used quite a bit of time in the middle of the show there. So, we've got, I mean, maybe
two or three minutes left. But I think, I know you've been on the show like a couple of weeks
in a row now. But I think it might be better served if we continue this, because that's a
lot to sink in. So, as a matter of fact, maybe that's what we'll do. Maybe we'll be sneaky
and do a double-sized episode or something where we have three full hours to do the show.
That might work out really cool, too. So, for now, unfortunately, we're going to wrap
up the show with that. But I do, just to clarify, because I don't want it to be like I cut you
off there. I want to make sure the listeners understand exactly that tunneling. And maybe
let me say it back, and you correct me if I misinterpret this or say something. But to
hear it from someone else, maybe it'll make sense. It'll be a little bit more clear,
too, to hear both of us say it. Basically, and let's put it in a real-world scenario again.
Let's say you're at an airport, and you want to bypass the charge. Or, of course, we're
not condoning that or anything. But let's say you're in a place, and you want to use
tunneling to your advantage. You want to use it simply for the encryption, which is your
right to do. So, you would have to have set up a proxy server. Now, we'll use, it can
be at your home. It can be, if you have a box, a co-located box, a server out there
somewhere. And there are applications that exist, am I correct, that are already set
up to do this.
Yes. You can just download and install and run. You described how they work and what
they do, but you do not have to reinvent the wheel. So, don't be intimidated by a lot of
that, the technical discussion behind it. There's a lot of that that already exists. And
you can put that on there. And basically, what it's doing is, you're sending a request
to the greatest site in the world, binrev.com. And, of course, it's not going to go through
normally. So, what you're going to do is, you're going to wrap that up into a DNS packet
and send that to your server. Now, the way these pay system works in some of these things
is they're not going to check DNS packets, is what you were alluding to earlier, correct?
Yes.
So, it's going to slide through that.
They will let DNS packets through.
And that DNS packet, in our particular case, when what we're doing is tunneling, is that
DNS packet actually has our TCP IP packet. And I think also that TCP IP relationship gets
fuzzy a lot to a lot of people. They think that they're both the same or they go hand
in hand. And I think you did a good job of explaining the difference between layer three
and layer four. So, I think that was an important thing to note, too. So, you're sending
this, what would normally be a TCP IP. You're sending a normal request to binrev, a normal
TCP IP packet. You're wrapping it up in a DNS packet and sending it to your proxy server,
is what we're going to call it. Your server grabs it and says, oh, wait a minute. This
isn't a DNS request at all. This is actually a request for binrev.com or whatever it is you
wanted. And, of course, we're not talking one packet. We're talking about a series of all
your requests being tunneled in this exact same fashion. And it's going to pass it on
to the site. Inside of that packet also is your return address. So, it's going to send
that back to you wherever you are. It's going to have assigned you an address and it's going
to get routed back to you the same way. Is that over, is that simplified?
Right. So, between your laptop in the airport and your server at home or wherever running
the proxy, the traffic between those will look like DNS traffic. But from your proxy to wherever
else you're going, it will look like whatever packets you want to send. It will get rid of
all the stuff related to DNS. So, your proxy is the translation gateway, so to speak.
Right. Just takes that outer wrapper off, that DNS wrapper off.
Right.
Well, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, yeah, I think that's a good stopping point right there.
I'll let that sink in because I really do think a lot of people don't, I think a lot of people
under, not underestimate, they don't go into that detail when they think about how packets
are handed off. And, as our first email today mentioned, you know, this level of technical
detail is difficult to get across on the radio. So, I think this really is a good,
a good stopping point. And if anyone has any questions, you can hit the BinRev forums and
post if anything was unclear and we can follow up on it on the next episode. Or, of course,
you can email us at radio at binrev.com as we close out the show. I'll knock out our site of the
week this week. I mentioned earlier it's bellsmind.net since it's back up and running once again. So,
go check that out. And, you know, before we do shouts, we have maybe a minute here to do
an update. What about that other project you were working on, the BinRev mentoring program? Is that
still alive? Is it going well? Why don't you give us a little update?
Actually, so, last show I was bitching about no one emailing me. And I guess people are listening
because I've gotten a shitload of emails from that for people both, you know, volunteering to be
mentors and asking to be mentees. Right now, we have like 14 or 16 people that are matched up.
And, you know, more is coming and I just need to find the time to match people. So, if you haven't
been matched yet, you know, if you don't have a mentor assigned to you or a mentee, just, you know,
stay with me next couple of days. I'm going to sort out all the paperwork. But, I mean,
the people we have already paired are doing great. They have, you know, like a plan and,
and, you know, like the mentees are telling me that they're already learning a lot. So,
this is actually taking off. And we have also, you know, a website that we have put up, you know,
just kind of some static words about, you know, what this is all about and how much effort,
you know, and how much time it requires. And how to contact us. So, if you want to,
please go over to check out the site. And the URL is www.binrev.com slash projects
slash mentors dot html. That's m-e-n-t-o-r-s mentors dot html. Not mentos.
The fresh maker. That's what we should call the program, the fresh maker. The hack maker.
So, okay. So, the webpage does exist. And I'm actually looking forward to be mentored by
some people in there and some of the skills that I am not as up to par as I would like to be. Possibly
even from you, Verbal. Because, I mean, I feel like I just got a mentoring session with this last part
of the episode. And it's going to continue on to the next one. So, that's awesome.
I hope so. How about some... Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, one thing I want to mention is that you can be both a
mentor and a mentee. You know, if you have the time to devote to it, nothing prevents you from,
you know, mentoring multiple people or being mentored by multiple people. Just tell me what
you want to learn and tell me how much time you have. And I will, you know, I will match you up.
And, you know, the thing is, okay. So, for example, right now, I'm mentoring Crackton
and I'm being mentored by Savant. And it's working out great. And, you know,
so you can do both and nothing prevents that. Just the time you have.
And we did set up an email address specifically for that, for people to email if they want to be
a mentor or mentee. And it's on that webpage. But just for the listeners, it is, again,
what was that email?
That is mentorship at binrev.com.
Got it. All right. How about some quick shouts for the end of the show?
So, I'll go ahead and spew mine out real quick. Since this was kind of like a little
Geek Love Radio thing going on this week, I'm going to give some shouts to DJ Mollusk
and to Sub-Zero, our good friends over there at Geek Love Radio.
And, let's see, our newest moderator, newest member of the moderating team,
Seal, longtime friend of the show, longtime friend of the revolution.
And since you just mentioned him, and you probably will second me on this,
to Savant.
Yes. Shouts to Savant. Thank you very much. And shouts to Crackton.
And our closing music this week, oh, a shouts, of course, to, I have to make sure I say this
correctly, shouts to Noe Lani. I have to say thank you for coming on the show. That was
very entertaining. I thought that was really good.
Yeah, thanks, Noe Lani, for coming on the show.
And our closing music this week is called I Know My Rights. It's from ADD or Jeff Fall.
It's from their new mini-album, if you want to call it that, which you can download from their
website, actdead.com, A-C-T-D-E-A-D.com. Cool little track that I found, so I hope you enjoy it.
And, Verbal, thank you for being on the show, and we will have to continue this, hopefully,
next week. Same Hack Time.
Same Hack Channel.
Locked me in the dungeon, beat me with chains, smashing my brain. Toothpicks in my eyelid,
watching television. You took away everything I loved, but nothing that I needed. Bound and blinded
me, broke my nose, and threw me in the street. But I know it's gonna be okay, nothing's bad
as it seems. Gonna be alright, cause I know my rights, cause the good Lord came to me and I'd dream.
Holy hand of justice, don't let me beg for mercy. When they tie up my ankles, tie up my wrists,
don't let me scream so many lives, like this. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Hold on to me and heart, and I'm feeling real smart. Because see, I'm looking for a man like
A man like me, nothing's so difficult.
A man like me, like me in the dungeon.
Beat me with chains, smashing my brains.
Toothpicks in my eyelids, watching television.
Da-da, da-da.
I'm gonna go to heaven when I die.
Won't see you there, but that's all right.
It's easy to forget about these things.
Let me know I'm gonna be okay.
Nothing's bad as it seems.
It's gonna be all right, cause I know my rights.
Cause the good Lord is praying to me and I.
It's gonna be all right, cause I know my right.
It's gonna be all right.
We'll be right back.