I
My name is Neo and I'm a hero
In a flash, I'll screw you on burning Dreamcast
You need some ISO? Let me do my hard drive rifle
Our exchange you could never stifle
In a digital hood, you just caught the love bug
I bootlegged your CD, I carved the fight between Un and Jay-Z
Your CG, it's all gonna be free
Whether we take it by force or we take it night free
You feel that rattle in your bones?
When I tell you we just hacked out Jones
And NASDAQ leaves you flat on your back
Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack
This is dedicated to the hackers and the crew
They're real phones, swords, toes, eyes, toes, rad, cip, cip
This is dedicated to the hackers
Hello! Welcome to Binary Revolution Radio, episode 179
And today's date here is December 26, 2000
Okay, we're not gonna say that
This is a kind of a, this is 179
And the supposed air date was the 26th
But due to a bit of miscommunications
And I thought Stank Dog was going to do it
And Stank Dog thought I was going to do it
We didn't actually end up doing a show for this week
So this is our makeup show
It's 179, we're gonna get this up hopefully
Before the new year
I really hope, unless I get too drunk tomorrow night
And we'll try to get all that figured out
And with us this week is Paladin
How you guys doing?
Yeah, pretty good
Is there someone else here besides me?
I looked under my seat, I don't see anybody
Yeah, how are you doing, BlackRash?
I'm doing pretty well with the fact that
We're just kind of sheepishly explaining
Why we didn't have a show this week
I'm actually curious how many
I'm actually curious how many people
Didn't notice that we didn't have a show this week
As, you know, combined with the issues
We haven't had issues updating the podcast
And I don't think the past two shows
Have actually gone out live
Due to the server issues
And that kind of messes up everything down the line
But I'm curious as to
And plus with all the holidays
I'm curious if anyone's actually downloaded the show this week
I bet everyone's like expecting this
Like they're listening to the show
And it's like, oh, it didn't air?
Oh, jeez
But I don't know
I guess we can make like predictions for the future
To prove like this is actually in the future
Saddam's dead
Yay!
Yeah, well
I'm sure there's all kinds of people going out there
Oh, you know, he was a good guy
He didn't mean to kill all those hundreds of people
That was a frame job
I don't know
Yeah, this is politics
We're getting away from that
So, how are you doing?
Fantastic
I had a wonderful holiday
Yourself?
Yeah
I did pretty good for my holiday
Yeah, because it's after Christmas
Actually, it would be after Christmas
No matter what
Even if we heard this live
Yeah, I got some nice books
I got some computer-related gizmos
I got an electronic weather station
So now I can find out what the temperature is
And what the forecast is
From the comfort of my own home
Awesome
Yeah, my parents have one of those
They're really, really interesting
It's cool
I like it
It is currently 35.4 degrees outside
Wow
With a barometric pressure of 30.30 inches
Fantastic
Yeah
I mean, you always should wear like
Cool like me
Now, does
So, yes
Does it do the satellite update thing?
With the time and all that good stuff?
It does
It's not satellite
It does it through
WWV in Colorado
I think that's where it is
Awesome
Probably syncs with
And actually
This
Well, yeah, yeah
This one actually does it
But I actually find I'm using
That my Radio Shack clock
That's supposed to do it
Only updates like
Once in a blue moon
Through the same source
Even though they're like
Two feet away
Not even two feet away
They're like
Six inches from each other
And the weather station
Picks up the signal
Actually, I'm curious
If the weather station
Picks it up
Or the remote transmitter
Picks it up
That's a good question
That could be the difference
Who knows?
Yes, enough about my weather station
I don't know
I think we already covered
The fact that
This is a pre-recorded late show
So
We'll forgive you
And hopefully
180 will be out on time
We're going to hopefully
Record that Monday
What we're going to talk about
Don't know yet
But we're going to
Talk about something
And gosh darn
It's going to be cruel
I'm sure it'll be fine
Yes
Alright, shall we
Go into email?
Absolutely
Our first email tonight
Is from
Sissy
Sisyphean
It's all you, man
I wouldn't even try to pronounce that one
Yeah, see this is the problem
People, just make it easy on me
Include a pronunciation key
With your
With your emails
I think that's actually
Sisyphean
Isn't that like someone
From like Greek mythology?
I believe it may be
I don't know
I never took
Latin or Greek mythology
Or any of those people
So
Anyway
Sisyphean writes
Please, please, please
No more episodes
On wilderness
Boy Scouts, etc
My ears are bleeding
It's so boring
I like to listen to bin rev
But for the tech
Hacking related stuff
Not the woods
Closest I ever get
To the wilderness
Is Central Park
In New York City
From Sissyphean
Well, you know
It's like everyone
Complains about having
To listen to safety lecture
Before the plane takes off
But like
As soon as the engines
Start catching fire
They start scrambling
You know
Making sure
There's heat belts buckled
And reading the little
Safety evacuation manual
Hacking isn't restricted
It's that
It's handy to know
It was some good stuff
You were actually
Part of the
The naysayers
Weren't you
Spalladin
Yes
Yes, I was
Yes
But of course
You actually
Knew all of this
Yes, the majority of it
I was in
Boy Scouts
When I was younger
So
Yes, it was all
Not new to me
Yes
I bet
Actually
Sisyphean
I'm like right now
It's like
His ears are bleeding again
Because there's two
Boy Scouts
On the show
And he's like no
I don't want to listen to it
The Scoutmaster touched me
But anyway
Yes
People just
You know
They complain about it
But hacking
Like I said
Hacking isn't restricted
It's just
It's there
Hacking is wilderness
Hacking
Hacking is hacking
Your car
I think
Like Stankdog
Caught a lot of fire
Back in
Hack TV 1
When he was talking
About modding his car
But that's car hacking
Hacking isn't just
Computer stuff
Absolutely
Totally
There's a lot of
Computer cars these days
Yeah, that is true
I actually know someone
Who hacked a computer
In their car
He made it all up
And I actually
The only problem
That I have with it
I think it ran Windows
But that was
Because he wanted
Some type of
Turn by turn
GPS software
So I really couldn't
Blame him for that
Hey, Windows
Keeps us security
Professionals
Employed
Indeed
Indeed it does
I remember when
Like NT4
Had out
And came out
And they had the
Zero administration
Toolkit
And I remember
I remember
Like going
Oh, wow
This is interesting
Let me
Should I set this up
And I'm looking at it
Going
Like, my god
This will keep us
Employed for years
And so it began
Indeed
Windows NT4
NT standard
Nice try
Who's our
Who's our next email
Our next email
Is from Bladesjester
And Sisyphean
You might want to
Skip ahead
Maybe about five
Maybe ten minutes
Depending on how long
It takes me to read this
So just
Just so you know
Black Ratchet
While listening to
Survival episodes
There are a few
Things that come to mind
The first thing
That you do
As a general rule
Is to take inventory
Which we sort of covered
Though you do not want
To improvise
Anything and everything
Survival training
101
What do we have
And what do we need
Don't use up resources
On things that you
Don't need
Or can make
Some other way
If the resource
Is something
You don't have much of
Since it is something
That may be of use
More use later
Secondly
On preparing a shelter
Forests are a mixed blessing
If you have built
A shelter to stay in
They can provide cover
And are usually
A good source
Of food and resources
However they are
Also dangerous
During storm
Because of falling limbs
During storm
Because of falling limbs
Some of which
That can easily crush you
On the poncho lean-to
The poncho is not necessary
Creating a lean-to
And then filling it
The gaps with smaller branches
And covering it
With leaves
Pine needles
And dirt
Dirt is extremely good
Insulator
Is also very effective
We're trying to be
Frugal with our resources
Because we may need
To use them
For something else later
And there is a lot
Better uses for cloth
If you have options
For materials
You can make your shelter
Out of
After drinking water
Boiling it will kill
The microbes
Boiling receptacles
Can be made from
Anything ranging from
Large leaves
To leather sacks
To wooden poles
Which aren't horribly
Hard to make
If you can't boil the water
Try to find some water
That animals are drinking
Extra points for finding
Suitable water
That's being filtered
Through a sandstone
Because it's a very good
Natural filter
If you can't find
Animal tracks around the water
And the water is clear
And flowing
As in not stagnant
Check to see whether
Or not there are many
Insect larvae in the water
Many types of larvae
Are a good indicator
Of whether or not
The water is polluted
Since they do not
Tolerate pollution well
Food is a little trickier
Most things that deer
Andy said bears
Eat
Generally
Are generally
Fairly safe to consume
Though there are
Always exceptions
Acorns may be eaten
However
Before you do
They really need to have
The toxins removed
By shelling them
Placing them in a cloth bag
Of some sort
And put the sack
In the running water
For a few days
Around ponds
Or other still
Or slowly flowing
Potties of water
Dig up the cattail
With the tubes
On the roots
That can be eaten
Like potatoes
Or grounded
As a substance
Like flour
I actually remember that
From some book
Two of the things
That you generally
Want to avoid eating
If they are only
Food available
Are trout and rabbits
And it is actually
Possible to starve
To death on them
However
If other foods
Such as tubers
And acorns
And other forms
Of meat
Are available
Then the trout
And rabbits
Are fair game
No pun intended
I could go on for a while
But I don't like to ramble
This is what I get for
Among other things
Growing up around
An ex-marine area
Which a lot of wilderness
Is available
Several hundred acres
Of which was owed
By my family
So I actually have a place
I could run off to
If the mood struck me
Regards
Bladesjester
Wow
I actually don't think
I don't think
I stumbled through that
Pretty much
That's a pretty good reading
Yeah
So
Since you're a boy scout
What do you think
Of that email
Oh wow
That was very informative
Yeah
He can definitely
Hold his own
In the wilderness
That's for sure
Yeah definitely
I do remember
The roots thing
And I think
I remember that
From wilderness survival
Or camping
Or something
I remember hearing
That
That they were edible
Although I never
Actually heard
The flower thing
And as for
The improvised
Anything and everything
I mean
I really don't expect
Us to go
We're Irish
And you know
Say oh man
We have a bunch
Of matches
Let's go make
A bomb out of it
And I
Yeah
We were kind of
Hoping that common
Sense would prevail
But
That's a very good
Statement
Because you know
There's people
Like Sisyphus
Or Sisyphus
Who just don't know
And they don't get
Into the wilderness
So if they crash
Out there
And they weren't
Paying attention
During the two
Wilderness survival
Episodes
They might try
To do that
No we're not
Making fun of you
Sisyphus
Or Sisyphus
Oh god
Why do they have
Hard to pronounce
Names
Sisyphus
Yeah
That is definitely
An enigma
Yeah
We're not making
Fun of you
We're just
You were
Actually I think
You were the only
Person that emailed
In that did not
That said that
The episode sucked
I got
I did get some
Like fairly good
Reviews
But I also got
Some fairly
Some sort of
Negative reviews
Along the same
Tales
Along the same
Lines of
Oh I think
It's not related
To hacking
But
Oh
Whatever
Our last email
Is from
Another hard
Pronounced name
I'm going to
Guess it
Aridium
You guys have
A very informative
Show that keeps
Me listening
Throughout the
Whole segment
I look forward
To you
Your show
Every chance
I get to
Listen to it
I've been in
The military
For almost four
Years and this
Is my second
Tour over in
Iraq
I know of at
Least two or
Three dozen
More of my
Fellow soldiers
Who are very
Active listeners
Of your show
On behalf of
Them and myself
We would like
To say thanks
And keep up
The good work
Regards
Aridium
Wow
This
I read this
Email today
And we're
You know
This isn't
26
Just saying
That again
And
This made
My head spin
This was like
No kidding
Like I was like
Wow there's
Actually like
People in Iraq
Listening to our
Show
This kind of
Like really
Made like
People like
Wow
I want to
Send out to
This is
I want to
Do some
Preemptive
Shouts
Here
Shout
Staridium
And shout
Shout out to
Any of our
Service personnel
Out there
Who may be
Listening in
You know
Iraq
Afghanistan
Or anyone
Overseas
You know
Keeping the
Country safe
Absolutely
Keeping your
Ass on the line
Man
I'm behind
110%
Thank you
Very much
For my
Freedom
I appreciate
All your
Hard work
Totally
Completely
And totally
And I'm
Sure
This is
I
I've
Radio
Show
Person
Got
Got an
Email
Like this
He'd be
Like
Oh
Baby
Killer
Or
Something
But
We're
Not like
That here
They're
Cool
They're
Getting their
Ass shot
Out there
So
Or hopefully
Shot at
But not
Shot
But uh
You know
Thanks a lot
Just really
Thanks a lot
Absolutely
I actually
Emailed him
And maybe
We can get
Another response
From him
On the show
Or
If actually
If anyone
Else
Listening
From the
Show
And who
Is
Want to
Send us
Email
It's
Radio
Bien
Rev.com
And I
Would
Actually be
Or
You can
Email me
Directly
If you
Don't
Want to
Talk
Get
Listed
On the
Show
It's
BlackRatchet
Of
BlackRatchet
Dot org
And I'd
Be very
Interested
In talking
To you
Thank you
Very much
Yeah
And hope
You guys
Are having
A happy
New year
And a good
Holiday
As good
As you
Can have
Being in
The asshole
Of the
Planet
Because I
Know
It's
Really
Bad
Over there
Hey
Cradle
Humanity
Man
There's
I don't
Know
Yeah
Totally
Stay
Safe
So
Personal
Hackey
Stories
What
Have
You
Been
Working
On
Lately
Trying to
Think of
Some
Things I
Can
Talk
About
Without
Giving
Too
Much
Away
Don't
Want to
Drop
In
The
Docks
Yeah
I'm
A little
Worried
About
Dropping
The
Docks
Nothing
Vacation
Yeah
Technically
Everyone's
Kind of
So
Yeah
It's
Christmas
So
No
One's
Really
Been
Working
On
Anything
Actually
I'm
Not
Sure
If
I
Actually
Talked
About
This
On
The
Show
A
Couple
Of
Weeks
Ago
I
Decided
To
Break
Out
This
Old
Computer
And
I
Stalled
Windows
XP
And
I
Now
Have
A
Malware
Analysis
Station
That
I
Actually
Haven't
Used
Yet
Nice
Yeah
It
Was
Actually
Pretty
Cool
And
It
Was
Pretty
Funny
Because
My
Sister
In
Law
Decided
To
Come
Over
To
My
House
And
She
Without
Me
Knowing
And
They
Wanted
To
Use
My
Computer
Because
I
Had
A
Camera
On
It
Now
Both
My
Computers
Have
A
Camera
Both
The
Analysis
Station
And
The
My
Work
Station
I
Get
A
Phone
Call
From
My
Wife
Saying
Oh
You
Know
She
Came
Over
And
She
Used
Your
Computer
To
You
Know
Use
Your
Camera
To
Talk
To
Someone
You
Know
Who's
Far
Away
She
Lives
Overse
And
I
Was
Like
Oh
Okay
And
I
Was
Like
Wait
How
She
Got
My
Computer
It
Has
A
Password
On
It
And
I
To
Her
Later
And
She
Says
How
Did
You
Get
On
My
Computer
Oh
I
Just
Hit
The
Key
And
It
Fired
Right
Up
Oh
Well
That's
Weird
And
Yeah
And
This
Little
Dog
Kept
Barking
At
Me
I'm
Like
What
Are
You
Talking
About
And
Then
I
Realized
Wait
A minute
I
Have
Winpooch
Which
Is
I
Think
It's
Like
Winpooch
Free
If
I
Remember
Correctly
It's
A
It's
Sort of
Like
An
Active
Scanner
To
Make
Sure
You
Like
Oh
This
Program
Is
Trying
To
Make
Registry
Changes
Or
Trying
To
Do
Certain
Things
To
Your
Computer
And
She
Tried
To
Install
Windows
Live
Messenger
And
I
Guess
She
Finally
Made
It
So
That
It
Went
On
Wow
Like
I
Had
All
This
Crap
Installed
On
My
Computer
Wow
Oh
All
Right
Yeah
It
Well
I
Actually
See
The
Plus
About
This
Is
Now
I
Have
It
With
I
Actually
Made
A
Copy
Of
A
Disc
Copy
Of
It
With
Part
Image
Which
Is
An
Open
Source
Ghost
Clone
Symantec
Ghost
Or
Whatever
They
Call
It
Now
Whoever
Owns
The
Damn
Program
I
Still
Call
It
Norton
Ghost
Because
That's
Just
Me
Because
That's
What
I
Grew
Up
On
But
I
Hope
I
Hope
I
Were
I
Think
It's
Actually
On
Source
Forged
So
It
Might
Be
Win
Pooch
Sf
Dot
Net
But
I
Think
If
You
Google
Win
Pooch
It's
Like
The
First
Link
That
Pop
So
Let's
Go
Double
Check
That
Right
Now
Yes
Win
Pooch
Yeah
I
Was
Right
Win
Pooch
Free
Dot
Fr
And
Actually
I
Believe
It's
Written
In
France
Which
Explains
But I think it's also on SourceForge and a few other places.
But it's a fun program.
If you're, you know, you basically, if you want to monitor what the hell is going on in your computer in the background, install this.
And it will tell you every little thing that goes on.
Wow, it looks pretty decent.
How long have you been using it?
I haven't actually really been actively using it for a while, but I've known about it for about a few years, I think.
Oh, wow.
And, yeah, it's a fun program to play with.
If you, you know, for malware analysis, like, it basically says, okay, you just executed this program.
Okay, this program wants to try to make a change to the registry.
Do you want to let us do this?
Yes.
Okay, well, let's try to go out to this website.
Do you want to let us do this?
Okay.
And it, like, basically prompts you through every step it's going.
It's kind of creepy how much you can get down there.
Huh.
Actually, what's even more creepy about it is that because you can find out what's going on,
that means other processes can do it at the same time and relay that back to their mothership.
Woo!
Yes, very true.
Very true.
You know what?
I had a friend of mine give me a website.
I had found a program that I thought was malicious.
I was just surfing around, and I must have picked something up off of a web page.
It's called the Norman Sandbox.
I don't know if you've ever talked about this on the show before or not.
Norman or Truman?
Norman Sandbox.
It's at http, sandbox.norman.no.
And what this site allows you to do is to upload a file, and they will analyze it for you and tell you exactly what it does.
And if they have, like, a...
Oh, yes, I've heard of this.
I actually don't think we've mentioned this on the show before, though.
Oh, okay.
Excellent.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if, uh, I didn't remember if anybody had spoken about it or not.
I have listened to every single episode of BinRev, but there's probably two or three that I may have missed.
Well, it's also, I mean, if we mentioned it, like, you know, four...
We mentioned it about 20 episodes ago.
That's half a year, so a lot of people don't remember that kind of stuff.
Like, I mean, I can't even remember if I talked about my malware analysis box, like, within the past couple of weeks.
Because I'm 26 and I have Alzheimer's, but anyway...
So is this malware analysis box, is this thing completely infested, or...?
Actually, well, besides Windows Live Messenger, it doesn't have anything installed on it right now.
But the idea is the fact that, essentially, it's like a...
Because a lot of, like, new malware, I think we kind of discussed this lightly on the Maloween special,
can actually detect whether or not it's running in a VMware session,
and if it detects that, it doesn't execute.
Right.
So people can't reverse engineer it.
So the idea behind it is you run it on a throwaway box,
and then you just reformat it after every time it gets infected.
Wow.
And actually, what I was talking about was Truman, which is...
I think we've talked about it before.
And it's a bootable CD that automates a lot of the install process.
And it was a pretty good...
It's a pretty nice bootable CD for Linux-based distros.
Automates a lot of the reinstall and analysis box.
And if you run it...
You can actually run it on two separate computers and have it...
So one of the computers is the sacrificial lamb,
and you only have it connected up to the computer running the Truman CD.
And the Truman CD emulates basically the entire Internet.
Wow.
So you can bring up, like, bankofamerica.com,
and it'll sort of put up a faux Bank of America site.
Wow.
And that's what the analysis...
And that's what the piece of malware is looking for.
So it was pretty cool.
I haven't had enough time to play with it, but it seems very interesting.
It was definitely...
And I think it was, like, only made by one guy, which is doubly impressive.
Yeah.
I'll have to check that out.
It sounds like a lot of fun.
Yeah.
All right.
Do we want to segue into our main show topic?
Sure.
Sounds good to me.
All right.
Well, our main show topic...
What is our main show topic tonight?
We'll let you take it, because...
Corporate...
Exactly.
Another one of these people who email us in saying,
I want to talk about this, and I have some credentials to do it.
And we're like, all right, type up some notes.
Corporate FNS.
So, yes, you too.
You too can be on BINREV Radio.
Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to your forum.
This really is a really friendly forum.
I've pretty much been here since day one, downloading episodes, and it's always been friendly.
It's always been informative.
Well, sometimes we're not friendly, but only the noobs.
We don't like noobs.
No, we welcome the noobs.
Absolutely.
The noobs are our friends.
Everyone was a noob at one time.
Everyone.
Exactly.
That is my motto in life, whenever someone starts talking.
Oh, the noobs are here.
Dude, you were a noob too once.
Welcome the noobs into our family.
That's right.
Absolutely.
Well, I'm going to...
All right.
So, what are you talking about?
Let's actually start with corporate epigenance.
For the two people that have been living in the cave for the past 10 or so years, what is corporate espionage?
We're just going to gloss over that for...
Well, espionage, and this is directly from Wikipedia.
It's the practice of obtaining information about an organization or society that is considered secret or confidential
without the permission of the holder of the information.
That's pretty much in a nutshell, but corporate espionage, it's primarily, you know, every company that is profitable in this,
it does well in this world, in corporate America or even, you know, corporate, global corporate doings,
it's because that they can do something better that the competition can't,
whether it's making hairspray or shoes or cars or hard drives or whatever, you name it, pharmaceuticals.
So, you know, corporate espionage can pretty much be anything now,
especially with databases, you know, being worth so much money because they're used for nefarious purposes
like identity theft and, you know, the list is pretty much never-ending these days.
Mm-hmm.
It's, you know, it can be anything from, you know, I mean, people say, when I, I've known that this is going to be important
for corporations to address for a long time.
And six or seven years ago when I would tell people, hey, you know, you should have someone come in
and do a sweep of your offices for bugs once a year.
You should have an outside organization come in and audit your internal IT systems once a year.
They would sit there and laugh at me, like, you know, who would want to come in here and break into our servers?
You know, well, we only do A or we only do B or no one's interested in hairspray or no one's interested in,
you know, I don't know, paper, you know, insert thing that you can get at Walmart here.
You know, pretty much anything that you see on the shelf at Walmart can be a target for corporate espionage
because not only product design is stuff, but pricing.
You know, if you can undercut your competition these days by two or three cents,
you're going to get the business because companies are very, very price conscious these days.
So how much people pay for different things is very important.
That's interesting.
So, all right, since we're talking about, like, you know, people who come in and, you know,
sweep or try to break into our systems or sweep for bugs or audit the IT logs,
I mean, that's sort of like secure, that's all InfoSec, right?
Right, yep, absolutely, yep.
Yeah, and what's the type of corporate espionage you're seeing now is, well, for example, the HP debacle.
For those of you that aren't familiar with the HP debacle,
there was one of the board members on the board of directors was leaking information to the press.
And the board of directors, the CEO, was it the CEO?
I believe it was the CEO.
Yeah, she said, you know what?
I think it was the CEO and the general counsel that decided to go, not see on everybody.
This is a bunch of BS, and we want to find out who's doing it.
So they used a term called pre-texting, where you gather information about phone calls and who you call,
and, you know, all that information that, you know, can be used.
I mean, even dumpster diving, you can't, you cannot imagine how much information you can gain about a company by dumpster diving.
And if you're in other companies that's in, you know, a fierce competition, automotive companies are extremely competitive.
Products like plasma TVs, electronics are extremely competitive.
For example, have you ever noticed how Honda's little robot, what's it called, the Ameo or whatever?
Yeah, I think it was like the Asimov.
Asimov.
And then there's another one.
Yeah, well, did you ever notice how those things are, you never see them by themselves.
There's always six or seven guys that are just standing around very, very close.
Honda has a lot of very cutting-edge technology in one of those robots.
And the worst thing to happen to one of those robots is to have somebody walk away with one.
You can't put a price on innovation.
You really can't.
Or even with the Asimov, you can have the robot walk off by itself, which is even doubly bad.
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
GM learned this a few years ago.
So they were going to beat everyone to the punch, and they were going to start making cars in China under a GM nameplate
and bringing them back to the U.S. to sell them.
And they were the first company to do this.
So they started sending over all the CAD data, and they went through about six or seven different Chinese suppliers.
And these Chinese suppliers decided, hey, you know what?
We've got enough of the information here.
We can build our own assembly line.
And that's exactly what they did.
And they released a car.
Cherry Automotive released a car that looked just like GMs about a year before.
And you know why?
Because they didn't have to do any of the design.
All they had to do was manufacture from the CAD drawing.
And it went in front of a judge, and the judge says, nope, these are two completely different vehicles.
And, yeah, if you just search on Google for GM cherry debacle, you'll see what I'm talking about.
It's their identity.
So just out of curiosity, was the judge American or was the judge Chinese?
No, the judge was Chinese.
Yeah.
There's no introduction to property law in China.
So you think that if you release it in China, you know, you have to be ready for it to be copied as soon as you release it.
And that's primarily what people are looking for.
They're looking for things that are in, like, research and development or, you know, mergers these days.
I mean, not to interrupt you, but going back to this, going back to, like, not we're trying to knock on Chinese here,
but there was – I was reading – I was actually on the radio yesterday or the day before on the business section.
They were talking about this company in – who makes, like, diamond cutting tools.
Oh, okay.
And they're at their trade show, and they're like, oh, you know, we're pumping all this stuff out.
We're cool.
We're awesome.
Buy our stuff.
And they're walking along, and all of a sudden they see this Chinese booth, and they're like, this is the same exact thing.
Yeah.
They're like, oh, you know – oh, buy our stuff.
I'm like, actually, I shouldn't say that.
This is bad.
And they're like, it's the same exact thing.
But the amusing part was they saw this, called their legal department up, and the legal department flew out,
made sure it was the same thing, went to the – whatever they were doing.
I think it was the U.S. courts or federal courts.
And, you know, presented their case and got an injunction for it, and they served them papers right on the trade show floor,
which I thought was just, like, a great move.
Wow.
And they had to, like, shut their booth down for the rest of the show.
Wow.
Yeah, you know, you're going to find out that there's really nothing you can do.
It's really a losing battle.
So, once you release something into commerce, it's going to be copied so rapidly, it's ridiculous.
And that's –
And when you're talking –
A perfect example is, you know how they have those magnetic, those yellow ribbons that were on the back of the cars?
I don't know.
Oh, the things that are everywhere?
Yeah, they're everywhere.
Well, the guy that makes those, he just started doing those in his garage.
He was selling, like, I don't know, something ridiculous, like $25,000 a week or something.
Well, the market's been completely saturated by Chinese makers of those things that can make them for a penny a piece,
and they look identical.
And, you know, there's no way for him to combat that because it's just – it's the market's saturated, really.
Well, there's two sides to that coin.
I mean, it's very sad that this guy's going out of business, but at the same point, the capitalist side of me goes, well, tough shit.
Yeah, absolutely.
In the same respect, you have, you know, like corporations like pharmaceutical companies.
Pharmaceutical companies probably take corporate espionage a lot more seriously than most just because of the reason of the formulation.
They spend so much money to get a pill to a point where it actually works, Viagra, for example.
I mean, can you imagine if, you know, it takes them 10 years to develop the formula for that pill,
and somebody can just hack into a computer, burn all the information onto a CD, and walk out with it.
And, you know, they've spent literally billions and billions of dollars to develop it.
The same thing happens is happening in your company today.
If you have contractors working for you or, you know, I don't care what business you're in, Hairspray, for example.
Hairspray is a $200 billion a year business, and everybody is looking for, you know, the better, faster, cheaper way to make a bottle of Hairspray.
And there's nothing to keep an employee from, you know, hiring a guy.
He comes in, he drops the whole hard drive of his computer and all of your information onto a disc, and walks out, and you never see him again.
You know, corporations are starting to look at ways that they can track and limit how much information you can see and look up and everything else.
And as recent as two or three years ago, I was working for a, in a healthcare contract for about a year.
And I had access to all the major health insurance companies' databases.
And I could go in there and type in Smith, and it would pull up hundreds of thousands of records.
And I said, you know, this just isn't, this isn't right.
This isn't the way that this should be designed.
It should be limited by several factors.
And so I tried to contact him and, you know, tell the, I don't know, database administrator or whoever, what was wrong with it
and what kind of limitations they should put into place.
And he said, yeah, you know what, I told my bosses the same thing, but we just don't have budget for it.
So, you know, in corporate America, you have to be able to quantify spending money to protect these things.
And let's face it, your business these days is IT, whether you want to face it or not.
All your customer information is on computers, all of your, everything you do, all your e-mails on computers.
I mean, I can think of no business in the world that doesn't e-mail, doesn't play at least a small part in it.
I'm trying to think of an example just to, like, be funny, but honestly, I really can't.
I'm guessing, like, you know, the person shoveling shit in Louisiana, like, really doesn't need e-mail, but, I mean, they could.
They could.
Who knows?
You'd be surprised.
That guy now is putting that in plastic bags, and he's selling it as fertilizer, gourmet fertilizer.
JoeBob at Shitshoveler.com.
Absolutely.
Yep.
He's got his own website because it's, you know, $0.99 or $1.99 a month now for a website.
So, yeah, he's got his own website.
I really wonder if Shitshoveler.com is something.
I bet it is.
Oh, man.
Yeah, you know what?
Buy our shit.
Yeah, God only knows what's on there.
Yeah, I almost went up and, like, started typing it into my web browser, and I was like, you know, that could just be a bad thing.
I really don't want to look at that web page, especially while I'm recording right now, because that could be a bad reaction.
So, you'll start hearing me going, oh, dear Lord, oh, oh, my God, my eyes.
So, we might save that until after the show.
Yeah.
Some other things that corporate espionage or people look for is, like, source code for software.
You know, manufacturing and technical operations, target markets, prospect information, plant closures, you know, business methods, product designs, research, alliance and contract arrangements.
It's just watching where the executive of a competitor's board goes to.
You know, are they spending a lot of time in South Africa?
Why are they spending time in South Africa?
Who are they meeting with?
You know, what kind of alliances are they trying to create?
You know, all those things in today's market, you know, they can make a lot of money, a lot of money.
It's very important to know what your competition is doing.
Well, not even on the competition side.
I mean, I could really see that as being, you know, if I know that the, you know, crazy straight hairspray company is coming out with a new product,
and they're a publicly traded company as, like, an end consumer, that could be very handy for me.
You know, if I find out that they're announcing their new product about two weeks from now, I invest heavily in their stock, I could probably make a pretty penny.
I could probably go to federal pounding in the ass prison.
Yeah, absolutely.
But I'm not sure that's not legal.
Yeah.
Yeah, one of the things you see these days is the old pump and dump scam due to.
Oh, God, that's getting really pissed me off lately.
Yeah, you know what you never hear about?
You never hear about all these computers that people are trading, like Scott Trade and E-Trade and Ameritrade and all those accounts.
When those accounts get hacked, you know, you have the ability to buy stock with those accounts.
And that's right there an easy way to pump and dump a stock.
And you never hear about that.
You know, the things that these companies try to keep quiet, it's amazing.
I mean, I've been in, let's just say, situations where things have happened at a company and they don't want to bring in any outside help.
They don't want you to call the FBI.
They don't want you to call the Secret Service.
They want to keep it internal because they're afraid that, of course, it'll get into the media.
It'll be an embarrassment.
The stock price will go down.
You know, consumer confidence in the corporation will go down.
And it's amazing.
It's just, it's absolutely amazing.
They would rather just patch things up instead of fixing them properly.
Or, you know, let's just say it's a lot easier these days to get funding for an audit.
Well, I mean, there's some point to it, but it's a very tricky situation.
I'm, from the technical aspect, it's a lot of, I mean, you outlined a lot of the reasons.
I mean, from the technical aspect, technical viewpoint of it, it's very cut and dry.
It's like, okay, we've been hacked.
We need to contact the FBI, contact the upstream provider, tell these people they've been hacked because they've attacked us.
But when you start throwing in all these little, I don't know, corporate variables, it becomes an entirely different matter.
So it's a very, it's an interesting conundrum, and we see that a lot every day.
I mean, how many times, before this whole California law of, you know, you need to tell people that when their docs accidentally might get stolen or got hacked.
Oh, yeah, the Scalic Breach Act.
I mean, everyone, yep, everyone started coming out of the woodwork saying, oh, we got hacked.
Oh, yeah, we got hacked last week.
And, yep, this week, too.
And, oh, apparently our backup tapes got stolen from a FedEx truck.
And we had never heard that before.
And the only reason it's coming out of the woodwork now is because it's, they don't want to go to federal pounding or California pounding in the ass prison.
Yeah, you know, it's amazing.
All these laws came out, and there's a few other ones, too, if I can mention those real quick.
There's a law, HIPAA, which is the health care information.
Health and Privacy something action.
Can you believe that no one's ever been prosecuted under that law?
And I can.
Because no one knows what the law damn thing is.
I mean, I've run into people who get paid high amounts of money having to deal with this law because I occasionally deal with the medical profession.
And they're like, I don't know what it is.
Geez, I just try to make it secure.
I'm like, oh, that inspires me with confidence.
Yeah, you know, to be honest with you, it would be pretty easy if they just policed it a little bit or if they asked for people to submit anonymous, you know, like a tip line or something like that.
The reason they didn't do it is because it's a paper tiger.
Now, everyone, these days, the buzzword is Sarbanes-Oxley and the California Breach Act.
Well, everyone's just kind of sitting back and waiting to see if they're going to be enforced.
Let me give you an example.
Credit card fraud.
Credit card fraud costs Visa and MasterCard, American Express, and, you know, all the banking industries billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars.
I mean, it's rampant.
I mean, you can go to any website and buy 100 credit card numbers for $50.
It's just absolutely rampant.
Yeah, I think on Tracksploits at Hope 2K – Hope No. 6 or whatever they called it this year, Tracksploits, so you can download it off their – it's a presentation.
You can download it off their website.
Secure Science Corporation, they basically kept track of all the credit card numbers they got, and they did some extrapolation of some – I think it was like the FBI says the average credit card fraud cost a person, you know, $200 or something.
And they multiplied it all out, and it came out to be like, you know, some obscene number.
And I think – I'm pretty sure it was in the billions.
Right, right.
And that was just the information they got out of one company out of how many.
Right, exactly.
Yeah, well, let me tell you something.
They haven't done anything to the credit card in my wallet to, like, add a pin to it or my picture or anything like that to make that go away.
So what does that tell you?
That tells me that they're making so much money that they don't even care that they have $200 billion worth of fraud.
And they're making it easier for fraud, I mean, with the whole RFID thing.
Oh, yeah, just wave your wallet in front of this thing.
No, thank you.
Yeah, exactly.
I'll just keep it in my pocket, thanks.
Yeah.
And you can keep your RFID off my wallet.
Well, I'll tell you who should be immediately fired this year is whoever came out at Best Buy.
One of the executives opened his mouth and said that $46 million worth of gift cards don't get cashed every year and expire.
So that's 100% pure profit.
$46 million of those gift cards never even get used, and they expire within a year.
Oh, not in Massachusetts.
Those are valid for longer?
In Massachusetts, they – no, I don't think they can expire in Massachusetts according to state law.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
Yeah, there was a huge stink about it when they first started coming out that there was convenience fees and all this kind of other stuff.
And I've got to say, the legislature did jump into action.
It's like, uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh, I can't do that.
I think they can expire at some point, but it has to be at least like five years.
Oh, wow.
It must be unique for that state because I think most states are within one year.
Yeah, no, we are one of the few states that have a law like that.
Well, can you imagine that number?
I mean, why would you tell anybody that number?
That should be a closely guarded number how many of those cards don't get used because people are going to think twice about getting them for people.
You know, that's what you call a release of information that shouldn't be released.
Better kept –
Or people that do have it are going to think, oh, crap, I'm not going to let them take my damn money because that's mine.
Yeah, $46 million in L.A.
You know what?
Let me see if I can Google that up real quick because I want to give an absolute number.
Yeah, it was a sizable amount.
When I heard it, I was like, wow, God, who does that?
That's just crazy talk.
I mean, I couldn't even – when I get gifts to tickets, they're usually spent within a week.
Oh, great, toys.
Yeah.
Because that was a big list.
I mean, sometimes –
$43 million.
$43 million?
And Gizmodo, $43 million from unused gift cards fiscal year 2006.
Unbelievable.
Pure profit.
That's $43 million profit.
So you got a gift certificate this year.
Go out and spend it and screw Best Buy.
Stank will give you a kiss or something.
I guess Massachusetts, California, Washington, and Louisiana, the cards do not expire.
So, yes, you are correct, Mr. Red.
Okay, so they don't expire.
I just thought it was really – I think, like, after five years, they can start charging, like, a 10% fee per year or something, maybe.
I don't know.
Five years just rattles around in my head or something.
But who knows?
I could be talking out of my ass.
I do that a lot on this show.
So how can you fight corporate espionage?
Let's talk about a few ways to fight it.
One is background checks.
I was sitting in a boardroom with some executives, and they were telling me how they deal with a billion dollars in cash a day and stuff.
And I said, well, you know, I would really like everyone to have a background check.
And they all started laughing.
They thought I was joking.
And I said, no, actually, I'm not joking.
Everyone in this room should have a background check.
And even then, you know, they wouldn't do it because of whatever reason.
I mean, half of them had probably, you know, had stuff, you know, disorderly conducts and stuff in college that they would never want brought up again.
But who knows?
They could have had a felony also.
You know what I mean?
They'll find out what they're listening about that goat in that time in Louisiana.
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know, I went in.
The goat enjoyed it really, Foster.
The more questions I asked, the more they really couldn't give me answers.
Like, for example, they used a machine to wire money all over the world.
And I said, how many people have the information to this computer?
And the one guy says, oh, no, just me and this other guy, just me and this other guy.
And the girl walks up and says, oh, no, Jill and Kelly both have it also.
Remember that time you went golfing and we had to do that wire transfer?
So here, these two people had this information, and the one girl had left to go work someplace else.
They never even changed the username and password for the stuff.
Yeah.
So, you know, stuff like that happens all the time.
And it's just – it's only a matter of time before it comes back to bite them in the butt.
Oh, yeah.
So, I mean, it's – I don't think it's a matter of time.
I think it's very much – but it is very much Russian roulette.
I mean, there are times where – there are times where, like, that was a perfect example.
You know, CEO and the CFO are out, you know, having martinis on the golf course, doing a, you know, round of nine holes.
And we need to transfer this funds over to, you know, our private Cayman Islands offshore holding account, like, yesterday.
And we need to do this.
So, okay, we'll just do it this one time.
And it's always, you know, oh, it's that one time.
It's not a question of, you know, if the person's trustworthy, you're fine, but how do you know that?
Right.
And that goes back to what you were talking about with background checks, you know.
Does that person have a felony conviction for wire fraud?
Okay, that's a person you really don't want to be giving that password to.
Right, right.
With that Cayman Islands offshore holding fund, you're really not falling.
Right, exactly.
You just want to get rid of that one.
Exactly.
$50 million might be a little bit too much of a draw for them.
Tempting targets for them.
Exactly.
A temptation for them to resist.
Yeah, isn't it amazing?
You know, you give them $50 million and you just get a receipt back for $5 million.
Oh, where'd this $45 million go?
Oh, I don't know.
Isn't that amazing how you just...
Hold on, I've got to go to my Lexus dealership.
...wire money into an account, you know, from halfway around the world.
Oh, it's just amazing these days, the stuff you can do.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm actually...
I've never actually done that, but it always seems very interesting, the fact that I can go.
It's like, all right, let me go...
It's always cool when you hear, okay, we just wired that over to the bank in Hong Kong.
And I was like, whoa, okay, that's kind of creepy.
Yeah, it takes like three seconds to...
And you get a confirmation number.
I was like, okay, everything okay?
Everything's okay?
Was that the right amount?
Yeah, that was the right amount.
Because it's very hard to undo once you do it.
It's very difficult.
Yeah, I can imagine.
Well, there was a...
I think it was...
Was it in England?
I don't know where it was.
But maybe...
I've had to be safe, though, because I don't think this was going to happen in England.
But this person went to...
He, like, was selling his house or something, and he got, like, the check from the mortgage company,
and it was in his checking account or something.
And he went to Burger King and bought a sandwich, and the person accidentally typed in...
It was sort of, like...
It was, like, two...
It was...
He, like, added, like, a couple extra zeros toward the end, and it ended up wiping out most of his checking account.
And he didn't double-check the number.
And the problem with it was, was, like, they were going to close the next day,
and it take...
It was a complete mistake, and they understood it, so they were trying to refund everything.
But the bank wouldn't let them refund it for 24 hours.
Ouch.
For something else.
I was, like, ooh, that's just...
Yeah.
Yeah, it does have its good things and advantages and disadvantages, that's for sure.
Which is why I keep all of my money in my mattress.
Let's see here.
Let's go back to my notes real quick.
Some other things on how to fight.
Be aware, you know, be aware of what's going on in your company.
You know, if you're going to have a product...
For example, have you seen these Heelys these kids are wearing these days?
Can you imagine if you would have...
Oh, God, I can't see them.
Can you imagine if you would have released that product six months before your competitor?
I mean, it's just absolutely amazing how every kid I see now,
between the ages of six and 16 are wearing shoes with wheels on them.
It's amazing.
It drives me nuts.
And what really drives me bad is when I get going to...
I guess I'm really starting to become old when I think about this.
When I see, like, the no wheelies allowed in the store, I'm like,
yeah, damn straight, young whippersnappers.
Get those damn wheelies off my store.
Get the fuck off my lawn.
These are pretty expensive, too.
They range...
That's crazy.
You see these kids just zipping right by you with, like, out their legs moving.
It's like, oh, just...
Yeah.
Get away.
Well, it looks like they range anywhere from $95 to $58 a pair, so...
And, you know, they're probably selling 10,000 pairs a day for Pete's sake.
Oh, totally.
I'm curious if crap like this gets caught on any other place except the United States.
I wonder if this is, like, a problem in France.
Well, you know...
They're just as American schmutz.
It's just general marketing, because if they were really smart,
they would just make them ridiculously expensive.
Then all the cool kids would get them, and then all the other kids would want them.
Then if you drop the price down, like, half, then everyone else would buy them.
You know, you start at the boutique stores, and then...
And then you have to name yourself Nike.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yep.
You start at the boutique stores, and then you saturate Walmart.
Isn't that what pretty much everyone does?
I think so.
It's a good marketing strategy.
Yeah, that's how everyone does it.
All right, so be aware.
Be aware of what?
Be aware of what your employees are doing.
You know, watch their network usage.
You know, let them know, hey, listen, you know, there's competition and competitive intelligence.
Our information is our company.
You know, make sure you, you know, keep your laptops locked up.
Make sure you have hard drive encryption.
You know, make sure you have good security policies in place.
All those good security things that you should be doing.
You know, your employees need to know about social engineering.
You know, when people call up on the phone, that the information that they get, you know, people just, they have no idea what things are worth.
It's like, for example, a corporate email list.
Oh, it's worth a fortune these days.
It's just, it's worth so much money.
It's ridiculous.
For, you know, people that sell health insurance, you can, I mean, if you have a corporate email list, it's pretty much a license to print money.
Because you can sell it to spammers from one side of the world to the other.
Even just a valid email address is worth money these days.
So your, your employees should.
Yeah, those, those, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Your employees should be aware that the information that they have is worth money.
And that there are people out there that are looking to trip them up and, and gather that information.
And it can happen to anybody.
Look at Bell.
So, I mean, we're, we're talking about, like, monitoring everything and, you know, basically keeping everything into draconian measures.
I mean, how do we, how, how, where's the line drawn between, I'm sure all the hackers are going crazy now that we were talking about this before.
But where, where's the line drawn between, you know, the, the rights of the individual over the rights of the company?
I mean, I, I want to go and visit, you know, Yahoo, my, my Yahoo email account from work, which technically I don't do.
But anyway.
Well, you know, I, I mean, we're, we're, we're.
I tend to side with the corporation in, in the aspect of if you're at work that a bandwidth is paid for by your company, the computer is paid for by your company.
You don't have any privacy at work.
Most corporations are pretty much like that.
Even if they haven't told you they're monitoring your net usage by now anyways.
And if they're not, they probably should be.
You know, it's, you really have to these days because people are such freaks.
If you don't monitor them, they're going to start setting up their own web servers and they'll sit there all day, you know, looking at porn or whatnot.
But, but porn's a valid stress release device.
It's just, but.
The internet was spending it for, right?
You're not my rights, man.
It's, it's my, it's, it's my right to watch goat porn at work.
Yeah, we get about three or four people a year.
We just have to kind of, you know, let go because they just can't stay off the porn pages.
So, how can you even do that at work?
Yeah, you'd be surprised.
You'd be very surprised.
I don't know, John.
This is the fifth, um, what's the color?
Cyan cartridge.
We've gone through the thing.
Looks like someone's printing a long thing with a lot of pink on it.
Jeez, Club, I don't know.
Just pop another one in.
Yeah.
I mean, how do you, how do you do that?
It's just, I mean, perhaps, I guess, if you don't, I mean, because, because the problem with me and what always drives me nuts, actually, is the fact that my cube that I have is open in the back and everyone can look at what I'm doing, which really pisses me off.
We won't get into that.
But, you know, surfing porn, if I accidentally click on something, like, where did I go once?
Like, back in, like, the, like, 2000 or so, I went to, like, some website, and it was a domain squatter for porn.
I was like, ah, crap, crap, because I knew that everyone could see behind me.
Right, right.
I'm like, I'm not going to that website.
Yeah.
I can even picture actually going to one.
Yeah, take a cue from the guys on, what's the, that TV show that was on, G3.
Take a cue from the guys at G3.
Never, ever, ever, ever open up a web page when you're either, A, giving a presentation, or, B, being filmed in a room with a bunch of other people.
Because, you know, you're always going to type in Google wrong, or, you know, fat finger, a URL, and nine times out of ten, it's going to pull up a porn site.
It's happened to me.
It's extremely embarrassing.
Noob.
No, anyway.
It's just, that's the nature of the bean.
Why go to websites when screenshots will suffice nicely?
No, that's my philosophy.
If I can get a screenshot in there rather than actually going to a web page, I am not even going to chance it.
Because I know what the screenshot will be.
Unless someone's hacksawed my presentation.
So, let's see.
I'm trying to think of a good way to wrap this whole thing up.
Ooh, hire hackers.
Security professionals.
Yeah.
I make a distinction between security professionals and hackers just because it always seems like when I go to things like Hope or DEF CON or SHMU CON, any of those, you know, get-togethers,
there's two groups of people.
There's security professionals who are hired for whatever reason to do security services.
And the guys that do it because it's fun.
And they live it and they eat it and they breathe it and it's all they do day and night.
There's security, security, security.
They love just breaking stuff and fixing it and finding out ways to make it secure.
And those people usually don't have, like, master's degrees or Ph.D.s.
And, you know, a lot of corporations, when they hire people to work in their organizations, I hate to say it, but they do put a precedent on education.
And, you know, most corporations want you to have a degree before they'll hire you.
Things are starting to change a little bit.
If you notice, if you just go to DICE and type in security, you'll notice a lot of the jobs say that they want a bachelor's degree or equivalent experience.
The majority of them say that because they know that, hey, if the guy's been out working his fingers to the bone and getting certs and stuff,
maybe he doesn't have a degree and that's just fine with us because we just really want him to help us make our organization secure.
So, yeah, hire hackers.
Well, I mean, yeah, it's what it is.
And, I mean, we're always talking about going out with, you know, degrees and everything.
But for some people, I think you mentioned before the show started taping, you're yourself included, correct?
Absolutely.
Yep.
Yeah, you know, some people don't have college degrees.
And I know we always kind of harp on education here and education is good.
And education is good.
And certifications sometimes are bad.
But it all depends on what the person is and who you are.
Education, I think college was explained to me very aptly my senior year in college.
Of course, they always tell you this after you've paid all the money.
But college really isn't, like, the degree really doesn't do anything.
It just opens doors for you.
And when I look at it, that's the best explanation that I've ever heard about college.
It's basically it shows that you can buckle down for four years and get a little piece of paper that says,
I, you know, have a degree in computer science.
Right.
I mean, it's not as much knowledge that you have.
It's just the fact that you did it.
Well, just recently, they just have an InfoSec master's degree.
I mean, the NSA will pay for your college.
They are looking for people to give scholarships to right now.
They need to get as many InfoSec people as possible because it's a huge and growing field.
And not only that, but there's a lot of people retiring.
A lot of people that have been in those positions for 20 years are retiring,
and they need to fill them up with fresh people with fresh skills.
Can I listen to other people's phone calls?
Absolutely.
If you, the big story is a few years ago, there was a story.
It was just like a little blurb about how you could take a Nokia cell phone
and flash it with a firmware to allow you to eavesdrop on it.
Well, now this is coming up again.
A couple weeks ago on Slashgear, there was a story about how the FBI has made that mandatory
on every cell phone released in the United States.
They can go into it remotely and turn the microphone on even when it's turned off.
Well, was that mandatory or was that just sort of a thing that happened?
I mean, I think the over-the-air programming has been around for a while.
I mean, I believe what you were talking about before wasn't Nokia.
It was the Oki, which I'm not exactly sure if that's related to Nokia at all.
But that was something where you had to hook it up to your computer and reflash it.
But now a cell phone has gotten more, you know, fancy-schmancy and it has all the bells
and whistles on it.
One of the things you could do was over-the-air programming.
And, like, with my sidekick, and no, I don't think I've ever seen my MDA do it, but I've only
had it for a while, was it would come out and say, oh, you know, we've released a software
upgrade.
Do you want to download it and install it on your phone?
And I'm sure there's a way of actually doing that without the prompt on it.
And I believe that's what the feds did for that certain case.
Wow.
And, yeah.
So, I mean, I'm sure, I don't think the feds have made it mandatory.
I think the only thing that really made it mandatory was the E911 stuff and the GPS.
But that's another story for another time.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's just, you know, something to think about.
You know, maybe you might, next time you buy a cell phone, you might want to import one
and make sure it's unlocked.
And get prepaid sends that are paid with us cash.
Well, those are cheap.
I was surprised at how cheap they are.
Prepaid sends that to the waiting cell.
I really can't wait until this market actually breaks over in the United States.
I mean, you're really starting to see the beginnings of it on eBay and everything.
But, like, you go over to Europe and there's basically just aisles and aisles of SIMs from
various carriers.
I'm like, wow, this is so cool.
Yep, absolutely.
And you just plug it in your phone and you have a new phone number.
I'm like, yes.
I want a phone number from Lichtenstein.
Yeah, it is pretty nice.
Yeah.
Well, corporate espionage is becoming so popular that they even have their own society.
And it's at www.scip.org.
And it's the Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals.
So, are these the people who are defending against corporate spies or are the corporate spies themselves?
Well, they label themselves as a global nonprofit membership organization for everyone involved
in creating and managing business knowledge, whatever that means.
Actually, I think they refer to them as kites.
And what a kite is, is the flyer will set the kite out and then if there's any trouble or the kite gets caught
or anything, he can just cut the string and let the kite go on about its way.
And it can't be traced back.
It's unlike what HP did where they had the quote-unquote private investigators, you know, do all the pretexting.
But they did hire them.
You know, if they would have been smart about it, they could have probably have gotten away with that.
The problem is that they didn't realize that a few of those people were very tech savvy and they fought back hard.
But, yeah, if you haven't heard of the HP, that's what it's referred to, debacle, go read up.
It made news.
How long ago was this?
This was in 2006.
It was about six months ago, right?
Six, six, nine months ago.
And it's just fun to see how everything played out.
And if you want to buy something, want to actually buy something, go to Amazon and pick up, what's the book called?
Hacking the Network 1, which was the first one that came out.
So how to own the box.
And I believe there are a couple – yeah, there's a couple of stories out there where it's – I mean, it's a perfect example of it.
One of the stories – it's like – if you haven't read this book, read this book.
It's a real fun book.
It's – it's – essentially it's hacker fiction, and it's – but it's like – it's kind of – it's very well-versed and based on reality.
And it's – it's a lot of what-if scenarios.
And one of them is a guy hired by a company to break into another company and basically steal the source code for this –
their brand-new application.
That's an application.
And, you know, yeah, exactly.
That's what it was.
And it's fun, and it details, like, you know, how it went about.
And it's – I mean, it shows – it demonstrates a lot of tools you can use and how something like this could happen in real life.
And it's just a fun read.
I think I picked it up, God, probably like 2003.
So, wow, it's three years now.
Wow, that's kind of creepy.
And I think I read it within, like, two or three days.
It was just – I couldn't put it down.
It was great stuff.
Geek Mafia is also another kind of fiction-packing book that's pretty good.
I love all of them.
Oh, wasn't that – yeah, I remember hearing about that on Off the Hook.
I never actually read it, though.
Yeah, it was pretty good.
It's cheap.
You can get it off Amazon for a couple bucks, I think.
You can get it for about five bucks.
But it's definitely worth a good read if you're into that kind of stuff.
Oh, wait.
It's only a buck.
Pick it up for $1.
But, yeah, how to own the network.
No, it's how to own the box, I believe.
Hold on.
I think I can – stealing the network, how to own the box.
Yes, it's on my bookshelf right now.
And stealing the network, how to own the continent is the second one,
and I believe there's a third one.
And the fourth one, I believe, is coming out real soon now, if I'm right correctly.
Yeah, I don't know what the fourth one is, but I have that on good information.
I'm forward to it.
All right.
Well, anything else?
No, that's about it.
Yeah, get into security.
We need all the security help we can get.
Good.
It's a very, very growing field.
As I was explaining to you before we started the show,
there's a lot of people that are in security, as in IT also, that, you know,
they're really not into their job.
They just kind of went that way for – as a career decision.
I don't know about you guys, but I am, like, a true geek at heart.
I can't stop fiddling with stuff.
I'm always building servers and tearing them down and doing installs
and playing around with different things, and it seems like the majority –
Please, you're talking to the guy who built up a malware analysis station.
Come on now.
Because I got bored.
Oh, I have a spare computer.
Let's go build this.
The majority of the people that are in the field really aren't – you know,
they're not like that.
They graduated from college, and they put security on their resume and got a job.
So –
Well, that's what it came down to.
I mean, when I was in college, there were two groups of people.
There were the people there who enjoyed it, and then there was people here because,
oh, I heard IT paid a lot.
That's exactly right.
Yep.
And why would I ever use a command line when I can double-click on all these pretty icons on the desktop?
Well, I've got to admit, there were a couple people who were there because, you know,
they heard IT was a good career move,
and they were relatively, you know, well-versed in everything,
and they knew what they were talking about.
So, I mean, but there were – of course, there were people that were just like,
oh, you know, I want to get a good job and pay a lot of money and not do any work
and play on the computer all day.
Well, no.
The problem with IT in general is outsourcing.
The good thing about security is companies will never outsource security because they're too paranoid, you know,
and as well they should be.
Why should you send all your corporate security functions to India or Pakistan or South Africa or, you know,
any place, Europe, to outsource them when you can't secure it?
You know, you're – I think they figured that out when they started outsourcing all these call centers to India
with these databases.
They said, you know what, we don't have any control over this information once it goes to Bangalore.
It's gone.
Well, wasn't there a company who outsourced – it was like a medical transcription service who outsourced their stuff to India
and they all of a sudden had a contract dispute with them after they sent all their data there
and it was all these medical records and all these social security numbers and they're like, oh, fine, we're keeping this now.
Pay some more money.
And I think they had to fork it over because they were just – they were sweet.
How much database information can you get on a 320-gig hard drive?
You know.
Exactly.
A million to a million.
How much database can you get on like a CD?
It's just amazing how much stuff can fit on there.
Yeah, SQL is definitely very portable.
Mm-hmm.
That's pretty much all I got, yeah.
All right.
Yeah, well, it was a cool enough episode.
I think we kind of ventured from corporate estimates a couple of times, but there was some good stuff in there.
I mean, InfoSec is just a fascinating career.
Well, not career, but I can tell where my mind is.
An interesting field in so many ways and just – it's such a varied.
I mean, we've got like malware and that's InfoSec and then we can get corporate espionage and then we, you know,
we can talk about forensics and it's just – there's so many subclassifications of it where we can just basically probably do it for another half a year
and not cover all the little tidbits and nooks and crannies of it.
Right, right.
It was definitely an interesting episode.
Well, let's see.
We actually have an announcement this week that I think Booter still wanted me to announce that he's still doing the Jenny scan.
And I think you can contact him on either IRC or the forum.
So just send him a PM or something.
And the forums are still messed up.
So we're still working on that, I believe.
I believe StankDog is currently – yeah.
I kind of – I haven't noticed him down, have you?
But apparently people have been still saying stuff about it.
And StankDog, as we're recording this, is busily pouring over the server right now.
It's sporadic, but nothing really noticeable.
No, I haven't really noticed anything.
Shouts.
I'll now send shouts out again to Iridium and all of our service people.
So thanks a lot, guys.
Absolutely.
Thanks very much.
And I'll also send shouts out to – yeah, I'll send shouts out to StankDog and Fix the Tower
and Booter for doing Jenny Scan and all the people who sent me presents.
But they don't listen to this radio show, so it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, I get presents.
It's Christmas.
Good stuff.
Shouts out to my mom and my dad.
Yeah, and my wife.
Kicking out old school and Santa.
And all of those.
Yeah.
I'm just going to ask you this randomly.
Did you actually check out the Google Earth Santa tracking service?
No, I did not.
You know which one I checked out is the one from NORAD.
I actually went to the NORAD website and watched them track Santa.
It was really cool.
Yeah, I got to say, compared to Google Earth, the NORAD one is totally lame, or at least the one that I saw from last year.
I didn't check them out this year.
But I loaded up Google Earth, and I was showing it to like two or three people, and they were all like my age, mid-20s.
And they're like, oh my God, that is so cool.
Because you have like this little icon of like Santa going across.
And I think we checked him out around like 11 a.m.
And he was somewhere in the South Pacific, and I was like, go Santa.
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah.
Do you have any shows?
I'm all set, man.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
Okay, so you should.
All right, no problem.
Our site of the week, and as Paladin brought up earlier, it's santabox.norman.no.
Awesome.
Which is, yeah, it's a fun site.
You should check it out.
Email, always, radioopenrev.com.
Send us an email.
Especially if you're in the service, because I'm quite interested in talking to you for no other reason than my own curiosity.
Closing music is from Sonic the Hedgehog 3.
It's called Walk on Water, and it's by House the Gate, available on ocremix.org.
And, as always, we will see you next week.
Stay ahead, Kyle.
We'll see you next week.