This is dedicated to all the hackers and the crackers, to the hackers and the crackers.
I see in binary, I speak source code, step on my tools, I'll post a million jpegs if you're in a fag tone.
In your digital stance, getting firewalled ho, cause I'm riding the net in my sixfold.
I was a dick with my 56, now with my cable I'm able to get that stable.
On the out, my name is Ace and I'm a Leo. On the digital highway, my name is Neo and I'm a Nero.
In a flash, I'll screw you on burning Dreamcast. You need some ISO? Let me through my hard drive rifle.
Our exchange, you could never stifle. In a digital hug, you just caught the love bug.
I bootlegged your CD, I caused a fight between Un and Jay-Z.
Your CG, it's all gonna be free, whether we take it by force or we take it nicely.
You feel that rattle in your bones? When I tell you we just hacked out Jones.
And NASDAQ, leave your file on your back, cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.
Cause I am he who loves to hack and crack.
This is dedicated to the hackers and the criminals.
Serial codes, source codes, axoles, rams, sips, sips.
This is dedicated to the hackers and the criminals.
Hello and welcome to Binary Revolution Radio, episode 193.
We're coming to you today on May 8, 2007.
And, you know, 193, that's really close to 200.
It's a big 200.
And it's supposed to be a special episode from what I understand,
but nobody tells me anything about it.
Just a little old face man here.
And we just lost half our audience when they figured out it was me.
So, we haven't had an episode in, I think, two weeks.
Something like that.
So, you don't have your radio crew today.
You have Face Man as the host.
I know I've gone up a lot since I was last here.
We have Zal91 over here.
Say hi.
Hey everyone.
Damn cat, wasn't even hungry.
Anubis, our engineer, is recording.
Oh, did you start without me?
Great, okay, fantastic.
Yeah, we started without you.
Oh, great.
So, that's Drake.
And we have a female co-host here.
Say hi, female co-host.
Tell us your name.
Hi, female co-host.
Oh, this is Noelle.
So, we have Noelle over there.
Today's episode, or tonight, or this evening, or...
You know what, it's been four weeks.
I don't even think it matters anymore.
We have day, evening, night, afternoon.
Whenever you're listening.
So, don't tune out now.
You won't be disappointed.
Yes, you will.
Uh-oh.
Just go.
Okay, so.
As Noelle is not in the rest of the episode,
she is going to give us her personal hacking story,
and then we're going to switch to the pre-recorded episode,
where the other three of us give our personal hacking story,
and cover email and the main topic.
So, uh...
Noelle, what have you been doing in the hacking world?
Recently bought a Roomba slash Gooba combo,
which, I don't know, they're annoying.
It's annoying.
Yeah, not worth it.
I mean, you have to charge it and blah.
And my mom is kind of crazy,
and she always tries to figure out ways to keep me off the computer,
but little does she know, I have lots and lots of friends
to supply me with spare parts.
Like, she took away the power cord,
and most recently the monitor cord,
but for a short while she, uh...
She tried to delete my user on Windows,
so that I couldn't get on.
And for a while, she...
I was really careful.
Like, of course, I just went under the administrator.
But for a while, I was really careful.
So are you not supposed to be on the computer?
Oh, no.
No.
Not at all?
Not bad.
Not at all.
I'm not sure why.
It's kind of crazy.
And then one day she was, uh...
I was just like,
Mom, I need to get online for something.
And she was like,
Just get on.
Like, what are you talking about?
And she's like,
Just go on like you always do.
Like, I have no idea what you're talking about.
So you're also a liar.
Huh?
Is that it?
You're also a liar, then.
Is that it?
Dot, dot, dot.
No.
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
Okay.
Straight up.
All right.
Well, personally, I think the Roomba would be cool.
Is that what it is, Roomba, or is it Rumba?
I think it's Roomba.
It is cool.
I mean, the technology and stuff is cool.
Yeah.
But once you actually have it in your living room while you're trying to listen to music
or do something else,
it's quieter than a vacuum cleaner.
And I guess it's more convenient.
But, I don't know.
It follows you around.
It does follow you around.
Oh, that's cute.
Put a little, like, suit on it in sense of pet.
A little dog suit.
No, my mom refers to it as he, like it is our pet.
It's like, oh, look at him go.
I'm like, mom, it is a robot.
It is a robot.
No gender.
What you need is a Segway.
Just ride that around.
Put a little broom on the Segway, like right on motors.
Just Segway back and forth.
That would be cool.
That would be awesome.
No, but the rimbo rapes chair legs and scatters papers.
Well, so does Face Man, but we let him clean.
Yes, but we're not bringing that up with our many, many listeners.
Okay, fine, fine.
Some of which are government officials.
Oh, jeez.
Okay.
Well, sounds cool.
And now we give you our recorded little piece of whatever it is that we have.
So you should stop listening about now and jump to the end.
Now, I've got to ask you, what are you guys drinking?
I am drinking Orangina, which my grandmother sent from England.
So it's English.
Yes.
Well, I have a pound of chocolate, water, and everybody's favorite, sweet tea.
I'll tell you what, I got more emails on the sweet tea thing from when I was on here,
last time I was on here.
About the sweet tea than anything else.
Sweet tea is so manly, so, you know.
I got more email about the sweet tea than I did about the fact that it was a wilderness survival episode.
Don't tune out now.
This is going to be good.
We're going to throw in some urban survival in there, too.
No, it won't.
It's going to be terrible leave.
Well, does anybody have any housekeeping?
I don't know.
What has happened in the last three weeks that needs housekeeping?
Well, we haven't had episodes.
I think we covered that.
Yes, yes, we did.
Let's move right into personal hacking stories, then.
Okay.
Well, I just recently got a new computer running Windows Vista that I'm going to get to play with for a little while.
It is a HP Media Center, but the mouse does not work.
It's wireless.
It has a leet touchscreen.
Yes, it has a leet touchscreen, and I got to throw the show notes all together with a touchscreen.
And I had to edit the crap out of them, so they worked.
Yeah.
Plus, my keyboard is wireless, and it's dying.
But it's really a cool computer.
It's been fun to play with Vista.
The voice recognition is not as high as I'd probably like it to, but it's about as good as I can expect.
Well, did you train it?
Yes, I trained it.
Well, did you get a headset mic, or just a low-laying mic that's on there?
It has a built-in array mic.
Oh, that should be fine, then.
HP did a good job on this computer.
Maybe it filters out noobs, and it just didn't like you.
You know, it might, because everybody else doesn't have a problem with it at all.
I like the voice recognition in Vista.
I think it's actually very nice.
Have you done the thing with the mouse grid, where it makes the mouse grid, and you can click around?
Yeah, the mouse grid is a lot of fun.
Oh, it's so much fun.
I didn't try it out before I upgraded to XP from Vista.
I should have.
I would have another excuse to hate it.
I can't really say that XP is an upgrade.
I can't really say that it's a downgrade, either.
It's different.
It's just not the same.
Yeah, it's just not the same.
So, I'm going to be doing some video editing on this.
I have to edit two three-day seminars.
So, that's six days of full video, and they recorded the whole thing.
What are you planning on using for that?
For that, I'm not really sure yet.
I will probably wind up using Windows Movie Maker.
Can I recommend Adobe Premiere or Sony Vegas?
Sony Vegas is all right.
I've used it.
I'm not a fan of it, but I like Adobe Premiere.
Hack 5 uses Sony Vegas.
Yeah.
Well, I'll have to check that out.
Maybe they'll buy that for me.
That's why they use Sony Vegas, is because it's so inexpensive comparatively.
Yeah, but I get to have this leaked computer in my room for the next month and get to do all this stuff with it.
Until they get the credit card bill and rebuild it back, huh?
Actually, while I have the camcorder, I might do like a thing of Hack TV.
Don't hold me to that, though.
I'm going to hold you to it now.
No, don't hold me to that.
You can't hold me to doing a Hack TV.
Send hate mail if he doesn't do it.
Faceman at awesome.com.
Send it all there.
What you can hold it to is that I am going to be purchasing my own camcorder sometime within the next three months.
I've been doing that, playing with Vista.
I've been playing with Free Spire, which is free.
How about that?
Yeah, well, what it is, is there's Linspire, and then there's Free Spire, and Linspire is not free, and Free Spire is free.
And they're both Linux.
It's Linux for the noobs, pretty much.
Yeah, it's pretty easy.
And for me, I need that.
I mean, I'm a phone freak.
I don't do this whole computer machine.
You should try Ubuntu.
It's nice.
The new version is 7.10 beta.
It's nice.
7.04?
Well, that's the beta.
The release will be 7.10.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I have that on my other machine, and I don't really like it.
Just go with Debian.
And I think 4.0 Stable came out today.
Oh, did it?
Ooh.
Well, I'll tell you what.
Since I was on the show last, I still have not been able to get Debian working.
Well, you know, Ubuntu is based off Debian.
Yeah, well, now I'm running Free Spire, so.
You should run Gen 2 and be leet.
Or Source.
But I'm not leet.
I'm leet at the phones.
This whole computer machine thing.
The computer machine?
Yeah, it's a computer machine.
You suck at the online?
No, I don't suck at the online.
Just the computer machine.
You should learn how to use bullet points, though.
Make my life easier.
Well, I can't do bullet points with a keyboard that's dying and a touch screen.
And you can't do bullet points with a Mac.
I mean, come on.
Drake, that's what we have you here for.
To add bullet points to our show notes.
Yeah, that's basically it.
So, I think that is my personal hacking story.
Oh, yeah, I was going to tell the Walmart story.
Basically, I got owned by Walmart the other night.
Yes.
It was kind of Walmart owning me and self-ownage all at the same time.
We were on Bell's Mind, pound 666, pimp-pimp.
No, it's not pound.
It should be a pimp-pimp of everything.
Okay, so it's room 666 that we're generally in.
So, stop in there and say, hey.
That was my .net homepage.
Yeah, it's right there.
So, one of the guys in there had never gotten on the Walmart PA.
And for some reason we were talking about it.
God forbid that, because I hate Walmart.
And I really don't like talking about them either.
But with all of their fabulous low prices and one-stop shopping, how can anyone not love Walmart?
Yeah.
So, we called them up and, well, excuse me, I called them up.
And I was going to show this guy how to get on the Walmart.
Show them how to get on the Walmart PA.
We had to call them five stores before that and get the damn extension number, too.
It was four.
Four stores.
A bit of social engineering there.
Yeah, a little bit of social engineering.
We had to call them and get the extension to get on the PA.
Because as much as Ponyboy does a wonderful job on Project Walmart Freedom, the stores in...
California.
Yeah, what city was it?
It was San Diego.
San Diego.
The Walmarts in San Diego do not use the same extensions as mentioned on Project Walmart Freedom, as we soon discovered.
We social engineered them out of that.
And so, we called another one and got transferred to pound 96.
Well, as I was doing this...
Well, we didn't get transferred to pound 96.
Yeah, yeah.
I got transferred to pound 96.
But see, on the conference, if you press pound, it drops you from the room.
If you press nine from the main menu, the coder comes on and reads off your caller ID.
Well, lo and behold, I didn't block my caller ID that night.
So, over the Walmart PA goes my caller ID.
So, I barely caught it in time to cut off the last three digits of my phone number.
So, if you were lucky enough to be in a San Diego Walmart that happened to be one that I called, theoretically, I mean, if I could get in trouble for it or anything, I didn't really do it.
It was Drake, and I'm just telling the story.
I live in San Diego, too, so you're just screwing me over, aren't you?
Yep.
No, it was Savant.
Savant did it.
Yeah, Savant did it.
Savant did it.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, so my caller ID got broadcast all over the Walmart PA.
I have later learned ways to not have the DTMF do anything.
We then successfully owned them three nights later.
So, anyways, Bell's Mind has kind of been getting up and going recently a little bit more now that Bell's Mind is actually back up.
Props to Not Theory, by the way.
Oh, my God, yes.
It's fantastic.
Yeah, we all love Not Theory.
I heart Not Theory.
Lesson three, Not Theory.
I was about to say that.
So, thanks to Not Theory and the wonderful lady at Walmart.
She was nice, too.
Yes, she was nice.
I have successfully been owned by Walmart.
Mm-hmm.
So, that's my Walmart story.
I think my frame arrives tomorrow from Germany for my, uh, I'm putting a laptop in a picture frame, another one, right?
And I ordered a frame from Germany, so it's Germany.
So, you can have, like, a dynamic font site?
Okay.
Well, see, my goal is to have the laptop in the picture frame so I can have different pictures of Zhao every 15 minutes or so.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Come on, get somebody prettier than that.
I'm sure Straum or Stank Dog will send you pictures.
Have a slideshow?
My chair just broke underneath me.
This is bad.
All right, well, do you guys have personal hacking stories?
Uh, I think photoshopping for a bunch of people.
That's pretty much it.
If you need any graphic work done for free, just contact me somehow.
Of course, we have to pay in other ways, but just not money.
Yeah, Straum still is me.
That was starting as a mafia.
Screw this stupid chair.
I'm doing the show on my knees.
That's what she said.
While you're down there, can you bow down to my greatness?
You know, speaking of bowing down, we are recording the show on Sunday, Easter Sunday.
So, this is our Easter special.
And there goes Straum.
He just turned the show off when we mentioned religion.
Yeah, well, there's like 6,000 listeners after a month or something.
So, I think we're good if we lose one person.
So, for everybody out there, he is risen.
Do you guys not know the response to that?
No, I don't.
I'm not a religious person.
Yeah, everybody knows the response to that.
Well, besides you guys.
Okay, do you want to explain it to us then?
Okay, I say he is risen, and you say he is risen indeed.
But that sounds dumb.
Yeah, really.
Well.
Are you aware that sounds dumb?
Because it does.
No, I hadn't really thought about it.
Well, you should...
Okay, go up to a random person on the street and try that and see how it works out and get back to me.
It worked fine this afternoon.
Okay, not today.
It's Easter.
I mean, in general.
Well, you only do it on Easter.
Well, I'm not going to.
I'm going to do it tomorrow.
Well, I'll tell you what.
Easter's...
Three weeks from now, remind me.
I got a pound of chocolate sitting next to me.
It's 2,300 calories.
Really?
Mm-hmm.
This...
I'm sure that's what I'm drinking right now.
Orange units and the healthy...
It's 12% juice.
What else is it?
Uh...
High fructose corn syrup.
Orange pulp.
Natural flavor.
This is such bad radio.
Well, and 40 milligrams of carbs.
Or, sodium.
What else?
Did we get an email?
So, we'll move into email now.
Real.
Send in in in red.
Real.
Send in in in red.
Real.
At sendred.com.
No.
No one sent this email.
I just opened it, and my computer shut down, so...
so I think that means
they're sending it.
Your computer shut down?
Yeah.
Because, like,
a Mac.
Actually, I was in Windows,
so...
Well, you have Kevin Rose
on SpeedDoll, right?
Yeah, I'll just call him
and go fix my Mac.
He's such an asshat.
I hate him so much.
I'll just come to sleep
with my mom.
Well, that concludes
email, then.
Wasn't that exciting?
Yeah.
All right, so we're going
to go into
our specific show topic,
which is...
Wilderness Survival Part 3.
Yep.
So, what we're going
to talk about today
is nuclear, biological,
and chemical
while in the woods
with no preparation
to protect yourself
against it.
And I think this should
take up a full episode,
so...
Well, I hope so.
Well, there's just one thing
you need to remember.
If a nuke goes off,
hide under your desk.
Under the desk.
Oh, yeah.
And hide underneath the desk.
Duck and cover.
I have that video.
That video is so funny.
But for the record,
hiding under your desk
does absolutely nothing.
When Jimmy hears the bang,
he's not afraid.
He knows what to do.
He ducks and covers.
And you see this huge blast,
and he's all fine and stuff.
And he doesn't integrate.
Oh, no.
Jimmy's fine underneath the desk,
but the XP on top is gone.
No, our show is not really
about wilderness survival.
Today we're talking about
NCFI,
the National Computer Forensics Institute.
But what is that?
Well,
it's somewhat like
a hacker college, almost.
It's by the government.
Okay, good.
That's exactly where I want to be.
Mm-hmm.
And...
But not for the government.
It's evil.
There's a couple of press releases.
Don't look like helicopters
behind kids.
There's a couple of press releases
I want to give everybody.
So you can pause the show
and go to these press releases.
The first one
is on the Homeland Security page,
or their site.
I don't think it's on the index page anymore.
And it's tinyurl.com
3, 4,
Papa,
Lima,
Kilo,
Bravo.
And the second one,
well,
let me give a little
back story first.
The facility they're putting in,
they're putting it in
in Hoover, Alabama,
which is...
That's right next door
to me, almost.
So,
there was also
a press release
on the Hoover, Alabama
website,
and that can be found
at tinyurl.com
3,
Delta,
Kilo,
Echo,
Delta,
Lima.
Okay,
so,
everybody's read that now.
What we want to talk about
is the
government's official goals
and ideas
for this program.
First,
we kind of have to tell you
what it is.
That could help you.
Yeah,
for those of you
that didn't read it,
or maybe don't have
access to the computer now,
you burn the show
to your MP3 player,
which,
why would you want us
on your MP3 player
is beyond...
They burn the show
to the MP3 player?
Okay,
terminology,
great.
I told you,
I suck at the
computer machine thingy.
I'm holding my iPod
above the lighter right now.
The overall goal of it
is to train
law enforcement officers
and the Department of Justice
and judges
and everything
the way computers work
because right now,
I hate to pop your bubble,
but
they're not exactly
the brightest bulbs
in the bucket.
Whoa,
whoa,
whoa.
The internet is not
a series of tubes?
No,
I'm afraid to tell you
it's really dump trucks.
Oh,
okay.
Oh,
okay.
Yeah,
Ted Stevens got that wrong.
It's dump trucks.
I'm sorry.
And that is my
official opinion on it.
It is dump trucks.
I agree.
I mean,
Black Ratchet
has stated on
previous episodes
that,
you know,
the tubes
is a good analogy,
but
to tell you the truth,
I think dump trucks are,
but,
uh,
I think a good analogy
would be maybe a web.
Book off the interweb.
The web,
the web fits
for the worldwide web,
but
the worldwide web
is what sucks
about the internet,
and
I've said that before.
Without the worldwide web,
the internet would be awesome.
You know,
we should all just
move back to dial-up.
Everything will be fine.
Oh,
well,
for real.
28 bod.
One bod.
We have digressed
so far.
So,
back on topic.
The overall goal
of this
is to be a school
for law enforcement,
Department of Justice,
district attorney,
and judges,
local law enforcement,
to train them
on the ways
of the tube.
Dump trucks.
Or dump trucks.
I think we made that point.
It's dump trucks.
So,
they need to understand
the way it works,
and most of them
do not now.
And there's also
going to be
what they call
a smart courtroom
there.
And so,
maybe,
the way I'm saying it,
is if you commit
a federal computer crime,
you will come right back
to my neck of the woods.
To Alabama,
where the nexus
of all technology
in the United States is.
Yes,
and actually,
I think that's
at the bottom
of the article here.
The state of Alabama
will be synonymous
with the cutting edge
of all high-technology-based
law enforcement
and crime prevention.
The nation,
as well as the world,
will look to Alabama first
to educate and train
the next generation
of world-class
high-technology
computer forensic professionals.
You hear that, y'all?
So, it's just before
or after the apocalypse happens.
You heard it here first, folks.
Alabama is synonymous
with cutting-edge
high-technology.
You mean it wasn't already?
Well, I mean,
we have Huntsville.
Well, I mean,
you guys have, like,
what, five, six computers now?
So, you're rocking it.
Yeah, and with this new HP,
I got that seven.
Oh, wow.
I have a Mac,
so that almost counts
as a full computer, right?
So, yeah.
I want to cover
kind of what this will
supposedly accomplish.
and their basic idea
is to educate
these people
that should know
what they're talking about
and really don't.
I don't know how many times
I have to say that.
They really don't.
And I'm probably
going to go on a rant
on that in a little bit.
But the idea is
that they need to know
what's going on
and this should be able
to put a stop
to certain crimes.
And they have the list here
of the crimes
they want to stop.
That being
hacking,
theft,
email threat,
complex or organized
identity theft,
white color crime,
theft of telecommunication service,
theft of trademark
and copyrighted material.
The list goes on.
We're going to touch
on that in a little bit
because it is
it's something that
you'll see in a minute.
Well, hacking is wrong.
It should be illegal.
Yeah.
Supposedly.
But we'll touch
on that in a minute
in my rant.
And hopefully
this will remove
the ignorance
that is currently
about computers
from the Department
of Justice.
No one will.
It won't be like
this guy
Hacksword
Mike Gibson
He stole my internet
sentence in his death.
Oh my gosh,
barbecue hacks.
And some of the fear
of what people have
of hackers.
And we've said
it on the show
before.
Hackers are not bad.
I think the first
yeah, the first episode
of BinRev Radio
was stank on a rant
about how
hacking is not bad.
I think you were
preaching to the choir.
Yeah, I'm preaching
to the choir here
so I'm going to move on.
I just want to touch on
kind of who is involved
here.
I have a small list.
We have the SS,
Secret Service,
DHS, Department
of Homeland Security,
FBI, Federal Bureau
of Investigation,
DOJ, Department
of Justice,
LEO, local law
enforcement officers,
DA, Department
District Attorney,
NSA, National
Security Agency,
OMG, Oh My Gosh,
BBQ, Barbecue,
TLA, Three Letter
Agency,
oh no wait.
Who added those
to the show notes?
That was me.
Quick side note,
what do you guys
think of Google Docs?
I've never used it
before, but...
I like it.
I like Google Docs.
I'm using it right now.
It's Google Docs.
It's awesome,
except it doesn't
work in Safari.
No, okay,
your match just
restarted halfway
through the show.
I think maybe it's
locally a problem.
We'll leave Google Docs
out of the show.
We'll pimp it at the end.
Oh, that's fine.
Go ahead and add it
to the end of the show
note.
Because we can do that
because it's all
leet and
collaborative.
I'm going to read
some of the major
points in this.
Just kind of go through,
read off the titles
of the different
sections on the
major press release,
which is on the
Hoover website.
The press release on
the Department of
Homeland Security
website, it wasn't
very long.
It was a paragraph
or two.
So I'm going to read
off just the titles
here and just kind
of what they're about.
They have the
overall introduction
just kind of telling
you what's going on,
when the building's
being put in,
where they're starting.
They're talking about
a ceremony they're
doing.
Then they have
the problem,
which is, of course,
hackers and theft
and money being
stolen.
Then they have a
quick solution,
which actually is
not a solution.
What is their
solution?
Their solution
is to teach
people.
Knowledge and
power.
Let's see.
The academic-based
programs teach the
theory of computer
digital evidence.
The theory?
The theory.
They're not going to
teach them how to
actually do it.
They're just going to
teach them the
theory.
So, like, this is a
computer and it holds
information?
Yeah, probably.
Well, actually, it
looks like they're
going to have some
of the brightest minds
that are involved
with law enforcement
and computers in
there.
So, you know, they
might have something
in there that's
moderately good.
They have projections
and goals for the
National Computer
Forensics Institute,
which really just
kind of says, hey,
we're going to
protect Mama and
her kids from
computer crime.
Which is good.
We need that.
Yeah, I mean,
really, you wouldn't
want to be killed
by some hacker
through your
computer.
What was that,
a National Enquirer
or Weekly World
News thing?
Hackers can make
your computer explode
by modifying the
molecular structure
of it.
I can do that.
You can't do that?
Oh, you're on a
Mac.
It's not compatible.
No, like, the Mac
has the alpha button
on my keyboard that
does it.
Do you have the
Pwn button?
Picture of Kevin
Rose, like,
shaking his finger?
All you have to do
is remotely reset
the refresh rate to
20,000 times every
half second.
You're good to go.
I'm on LCD.
I'm fine.
Yeah, you're fine.
But little Mama
and her kids.
Actually, I'm not.
I have seven monitors
pointed at me right
now, so I'm toast.
The whole block
would go up and
fly.
Fried from all
directions.
And for the record,
none of us can
actually blow up a
computer.
Except Zal91.
Yeah, but he has
the Kevin Rose
button.
Zal has napalm
built into his
computer.
No, not napalm.
Thermite.
Napalm would do
the trick, too.
I almost bought a
thermite drive one
time.
Yeah.
It was so expensive.
Oh, my God.
It was like $2,000.
Yeah, but if
somebody's
a three-meter
agency is
busted on your
door, and then
you press a
button, and
they see fire,
what are they
going to do?
Well, as much
of a cash-money
millionaire as I
am, I don't
have $2,000 to
literally waste like
that.
Haven't you ever
read the
anarchist cookbook?
Yes, but I
didn't think that
you could actually
make thermite.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, you can.
Yeah.
Not that I know
about this.
I might have a
friend.
in a metal container.
I might have a
friend who might have
made thermite from
the recipe in the
anarchist cookbook.
Bob.
Oh, I mean
Bob, Bob.
Yeah, Bob, Bob.
We all know
Bob, right?
I think Bob is
savant, but...
I think Bob is
savant, too, yes.
I think Bob called
Walmart and got
owned.
Well, I might have a
friend who might just
know that the recipe in
the anarchist cookbook for
thermite works.
I don't mind not.
You never know.
Of course, BinRev Radio
supports no illegal
explosives as such.
I do, though, but not
BinRev Radio.
Yes, I condone
explosives.
They're quite fine if
you do it safely.
Yes, safely as in
with a license.
I can quote my
sig.
Stank dog and the
GDP do not condone
what I say, and if
it's illegal, neither
do I.
All right, so I'm
going to finish here.
They have a joint
effort just kind of
overlaying that it
won't just be Secret
Service or just
Department of Homeland
Security.
They just kind of go
through a quick list of
the different people
involved.
Then the next one is
the building and just
kind of who's building
the building, what
specific agencies will
have access to the
building, when they're
building it.
They don't mention where
they're building it.
They do mention when it
should be done, which
is January 1, 2008,
which I believe is just
the first phase.
They kind of overlay
what it has in it,
which is six
classrooms and an
actual working
computer forensic
lab.
Why would they need
that?
Say it with me now.
Computers in Alabama.
As well as a smart
courtroom, among other
things.
You know what that
means?
The toilets will have
a 56K modem.
They're set to begin
construction mid-April
to the first of May.
Now, I've been driving
around looking for this
place, and I have no
idea where they're going
to build it.
They've got other type of
criminal activity
include, and that's the
list of all the different
stuff they want to
defend against, and that
takes up a full page of
my screen.
They've got their
training schedule on
here, and it looks like
they're going to have
approximately 900 to
1,500 students per year
with 48 calendar weeks of
training each year,
utilizing state-of-the-art
facility with smart
courtrooms.
Do you want to explain
what a smart courtroom
is?
I don't know.
That's all they call it,
is a smart courtroom.
We're going to attempt,
now we're recording this
on Sunday, the Hoover
City Hall and Hoover
Public Safety Building
was closed on Friday when
I tried to call them for
Easter, and they will not
be open again until
Monday.
So I'm going to try and
call them on Monday, see
if I can get a hold of
somebody, do a quick phone
interview, and then see if
we can append it to the
end of the episode.
Don't hold me to that,
and I'll only do it if
it's a really decent
phone call.
What were we talking
about?
Crap.
I believe you were just
finishing off with
something with smart
courtrooms.
All right, I am so
leet, I just fixed my
chair.
Could we continue on,
please?
I'd hate to bring down
the quality of Bin
Rev Radio.
Okay.
I'm going to read their
actual casework example
here.
A school system's
computer network
security is compromised.
The names, date of
birth, and social
security numbers of
young students are
stolen.
Merchants of stolen
identities know that
each of the unblemished
credit identities of
young males can be worth
tens of thousands of
dollars overseas.
identities are easily
sold over the internet.
Sexual offenders and
predators use their
computers to store and
collect images of
children being sexually
exploited as well as to
develop relationships with
other individuals who
share similar interests.
There is a growing
segment of the population
who develop relationships
with vulnerable children in
order to meet for the
purpose of sexual
contact.
Contact.
Recently, thousands of
our nation's veterans have
had their identities
compromised by an
employee carelessly
handling information.
At this time, experts can
only speculate as to the
extent of the potential
criminal activity that
could ensue should this
information fall into the
wrong hands.
I mean, while all of
that is possible and
probably very easy to
do, they don't need to
tell people that.
People seem to lose data
all the time now.
I know.
It's all over the news.
About once a week, someone
left a laptop somewhere.
Why would you carry a
database on a laptop to
begin with?
I think it's some three-letter
organization.
I don't know.
I read somewhere it got
400 laptops stolen.
It was the veteran
hospital place, people.
And their laptop got
stolen.
You know, if I was
carrying that kind of
information on a laptop
and I wouldn't, but if I
did, I would at least
just take the drive out
and put it in my back
pocket or something.
Because someone would
have to target the hard
drive, but they're
probably just going to
look for the laptop just
to put the laptop on
eBay.
Yeah, and the idea is
they probably didn't even
know what they got.
Yeah.
At least full disk
encryption.
I mean, it's not that
hard.
Yeah.
I mean, that's fine.
I am not against this
school that is, that's a
great thing that they can
do, they can teach these
people that.
But this, this section of
the press release, the
whole, the whole thing is
tinted with the fear
tactics that they're using.
And, I mean, everybody
knows that their names and
date of birth and social
security numbers can be
compromised.
And they're, they're using
kids and they're calling
them, they're innocent and
they can't protect
themselves.
Well, you know what?
Well, hackers are up.
I mean, I wouldn't do
that, but they use these
fear tactics and they,
they say, hey, your kids,
they can be taken and
then they, they, they
jump right in from their
credit identities to being
the kid to have sexual
contact with some adult
that impersonated a kid.
I mean, we all know that's
bad and most people know,
hey, don't give out your
name and stuff on the
internet.
Or your phone number on a
PA system.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
But, I mean, everybody
knows not to do that.
I mean, we teach kids in
schools not to do that
now.
But.
They should be more
concerned about places like
MySpace where these kids
put their entire, you know,
this is the route I take to
school and I'm by myself.
I think, what is it,
Facebook?
Like, it has a, on your
default profile page, it
displays your phone number
and I think your address and
stuff automatically.
Yeah.
And you have to have a
school to get a Facebook,
right?
Yeah.
I mean, a school system's
computer network security is
compromised.
Well, I can go ahead and
guarantee you that 90%, and I'm
pulling that out of my butt,
90% of all school system
computer networks is
compromised already.
I know for a fact my
friend Bob's school network
is.
I know for a fact.
That's mine.
I know for a fact that all
of the networks in my area
I can get on, no problem.
Yeah.
Well, my friend Bob's school
doesn't even have encryption
on their Wi-Fi.
Let me tell you about my
friend Bob's school.
My friend Bob's school, the
password to log into the
computers is your full name
followed by your birth
day as the password.
Yeah.
And they say a school
system's computer security
could be compromised.
Could be.
They are.
All right?
This is not an example.
This is, well, yes, it is
an example.
But it's fear tactics that
don't need to be used.
I mean, honestly, this is
true.
It could be done.
Let me play devil's
advocate.
Okay, if I went up to a
parent and said, like,
hey, I can get
information about you.
I can find out all of the
phone calls you've made in
the last, you know, six
months.
They'll go, well, I don't
care if you know who I'm
calling.
But if I said, I can find
out exactly who your child
is calling for the entire
last six months and
everywhere they've been and
everywhere they're going,
the parent might get
concerned then.
Yeah.
And I mean, I hear all
these people, I think this
has probably been talked
about before on here, but
the people that say, hey,
I don't care if my
security on my computer gets
compromised, I'll just
Yeah, who wants to read my
email?
No one cares about my
email.
Yeah.
I mean, that's not the way
it works.
The information can be
gathered.
Everybody go listen to the
things that 2600 did about
privacy is dead.
They did it.
Oh, my God.
Yes.
The privacy is dead thing.
I've been listening to that
and it really is.
If somebody wants
something, they can get
it.
Well, it's not just one
piece of information.
You want to combine what
they buy with where they
go with who they call with
all these things.
So you get all these
little pieces of
information, but it's the
big map you want to look
at.
They don't need to have
this in there.
I mean, they're trying to
scare people so that
they'll support this project.
That's all the media does.
Every headline is either a
scare tactic or a human
story about something.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not saying that this
isn't something that
shouldn't be supported, but
they don't need to use
these fear tactics.
And I think Department
of Homeland Security got
that.
They didn't add that to
their press release.
This is all Hoover City,
City of Hoover that's
doing this.
And I'm going to read
another quote from their
article here.
Computers and digital
technology is used in all
manner of crimes against
persons as well as
property.
It is also one of the
leading mechanisms used
to further terrorist acts.
How much computer use
do you think was involved
with hijacking an airplane?
Microsoft Flight Simulator?
Well, you know...
No, no, no.
These guys were trained.
They knew how to fly.
I thought they just
SSH'd into the plane.
But I mean...
Alright.
Terrorist part out.
Crimes against persons
as well as property.
What kind of crimes
could I commit
against property?
Well, I could change
who owns the car
that you drive.
Other than that,
I can't think of anything.
I mean, I guess I could
probably change
who owns your house.
But that would take
a little bit of work.
Well, did you just say
that with a computer
you can't commit crime?
No, no, no, no.
I said...
I mean, there's
plenty of crimes
you can do with a computer.
But there's not
nearly as many
as they're saying
that they're insinuating
that there is.
You can do more crime
in the RL
than on the computer.
Yeah.
By far.
This is true.
Yeah, and they're saying
it's one of the
leading mechanisms.
I don't think it is.
I mean, hey,
these guys do statistics.
All right, let me read
another example here.
The monetary losses
from computer-related crimes
now exceeds
the money involved
in the illegal
drug trade worldwide.
I have a question.
Do you honestly think
that the U.S. government
knows how much
illegal drug trade
is going on worldwide?
No way.
It's not
what they're involved.
There's no way
that they could know
all of what's going on.
And the monetary losses
from computer-related crimes
just because
Okay, I'm going to be
exaggerated.
Yeah, just because
a bank spends
$50,000
to see
if their system
is still secure
every time
they get a ping.
Well, who was that guy
that was using
the LexisNexis account
at the New York Times
and they tried to charge him
for like
hundreds of thousands
of dollars worth
of LexisNexis searches
but they had an unlimited account?
Did you hear about that?
No, I didn't.
Oh my God.
That was like two years ago, though.
All right.
Here's the
Here's my favorite
right here.
Criminal networks
can reach around the world
and cause harm
and pain.
And pain?
And pain.
No one is safe
from their reaches.
Oh no, dude.
Use the pain button.
It's right next to F12.
No one is safe
from their reaches.
Our children,
our identity,
and all that is important
are vulnerable
to the computer-savvy criminal.
All he needs
is access.
And the computer
is an open door
into our homes
and our business.
It is also an open window
into the bedroom
of our children.
So like an IRC,
instead of typing
slash me,
you type in like
slash you
and then pain
and it works?
I guess.
Pseudo start pain.
Hey, you can't type that.
This is ironic
that they would use
it is also an open window
into the bedroom
of our children.
If you have windows
on your computer,
it's an open window.
User.
The feature.
The feature, yeah.
It's a usability enhancement.
Yeah, but I mean,
how can
how can criminal networks
reach around the world
and cause harm
and pain?
Okay, well,
I have an example, actually.
There was one guy
who, um,
he worked at some kind
of sewage refinery
or processing plant,
something like that,
and he got laid off
for some reason.
There was some kind
of thing going on there
and when he left,
he took one of the
interface radios
that controls the pumps
and he dumped like
50,000 gallons
of raw sewage
into the environment.
Could he have done that
from the other side
of the world?
Well, maybe.
He had to, I guess.
But the point is,
I guess you can kind
of cause harm.
I guess it depends
on what your definition
of hurt,
physically or,
Yeah.
I mean,
it can hurt your back
I guess that could be
emotional.
I mean,
well,
the quote is,
at this time,
no standardized
certifications exist
to establish one
as a recognized expert
in the field
of computer forensics.
One can simply
purchase a software package
and learn the program
and then hold
oneself out
as an expert
in the area.
With virtually
no training,
and experience,
an individual
could discredit
years of work
and research
in the area
of computer forensics
as well as
negatively affect
existing legal
casework.
Wait,
did they say
there are no
certifications
you can get
in computer forensics?
No standardized
certifications.
Oh, I see.
No standardized.
So that's
their way of saying
anybody can call
themselves an expert
but nobody
can stop
these hackers
from coming
and killing
your kids.
It aggravates me
a lot.
Bob goes here.
It's not so.
Bob, yeah,
Bob's fourth.
All right.
In rant,
partially,
I'm going to go
through the different
crimes they want
to stop
with this
wonderful system.
And I really,
despite what I'm
saying here,
I just have a problem
with the press release
and what they're
trying to do
to sell this over.
I really do think
this is an excellent
program
that they're going
to try here.
I have a perfect
thing to sum it up.
The people in charge
of the
hooveralabama.gov
website
suck.
They really do.
They're not
lead hacksawers.
It's the mayor
who is
Mayor Patelos,
I believe.
It's the mayor
and his homeboys.
Oh, come on.
You don't think
these guys
actually made
these decisions
on their own.
They sit around
and go,
what would look
good?
I know,
let's stop
computer crime.
How can we
do that?
And then they
shoot it around
for an hour or two
and come out
with this plan.
Well, they didn't
come up with it.
Who came up
with it?
Secret Service
and Homeland
Security
in a joint effort
came up with it.
Even better.
And then
our wonderful
Senator
something or other
who
he's our
wonderful
Senator
something or other
he pitched
it to them
to bring it
to Alabama.
Yeah.
And some
of the crimes
they want to
stop are
hacking
as they
define it
as
unlawful
access
destruction
of
or
unauthorized
entry
into
and use
of
computer
systems.
Now see,
that's way
too vague.
Yeah.
Because
a lot of
people could
go to jail
just for that
that
haven't done
anything.
I think
I'm doing
that right
now probably.
I mean,
if they want
to make
that the
law,
by all
means,
they can
make that
the law,
but
yeah.
Well,
computer
systems
is so
vague that
they can
apply computer
systems to
anything.
Everything
has a
computer
nowadays.
Yeah,
everything
has a
computer
system
now.
And if
it's
hacking,
they'll
throw you
in federal
prison.
So you
break into
a car,
well,
you just
circumvented
the alarm
system.
That's a
computer.
That's
hacking and
Grand Theft
Auto.
Yeah.
Mind you,
of course,
that we
are not
legal
professionals
of any
sort.
All right,
so some of
their other
crimes,
theft,
interception,
manipulation,
destruction,
or unauthorized
disclosure of
data stored
within computers.
Well,
theft,
I can say
that I've
never done
that.
Can you
steal data?
Yes.
How so?
It's data.
Yeah,
but if I
take a file
from you,
you still
have that
file,
and I
still have
that file.
That's a
whole other
topic.
That's one
of the
lower ones
here.
Destruction,
I've never
done that.
Unauthorized
disclosure of
data stored
within computers,
I've disclosed
it to people
that owned
the computer
and told
them that
their computer
was vulnerable
and wide
open.
Yeah,
you shouldn't
plug that
Windows 95
machine directly
into the
cable modem.
Yeah.
But on
that case,
I knew
the person
whose
computer
it was,
and it
wasn't a
problem.
I wasn't
worried about
getting sued
or anything.
So there's
just so
many different
things on
here.
They have
complex or
organized
identity
theft where
technology is
used to
harvest data
or produce
counterfeit
documents.
Okay,
I can see
where producing
counterfeit
documents would
be bad.
Identity
theft, I can
understand that
too.
I mean,
that would
fall under
the Secret
Service
Jurisdiction,
especially if
it involved
money.
They got
white-collar
crime, such
as internet
automated
teller machines,
credit card
debt, just
white-collar
crime.
Okay, that's
fine.
I mean, I
don't have a
problem with
stopping people
that rip off
automated teller
machines.
I mean, there's
multiple ways to
do that.
We're not going
to go into
that.
Debted
telecommunication
services, I
can understand
that.
I mean, they
have a right
to money.
I mean, they're
just trying to
make money
here.
Debt of
trademark and
copyrighted
material or
other intellectual
property through
computer, digital,
network intrusions,
or other, I
get this,
sophisticated
means.
See, this
could be solved
if we just had
more DRM.
Commercial
software piracy.
I can
understand that
too.
Some people,
a lot of
people, put
hard work into
their programs.
Entire
companies are
formed around
it.
Right.
I mean, I
can fully
understand that
one.
High-tech cargo
theft.
Okay, so
this one, theft
and resale of
computer components
and other high
technology products
produced by the
high technology
industry.
Does that mean
that if you
sell...
Isn't that
already illegal?
Isn't that
just like stealing
stuff and then
selling it?
That's called
stealing stuff.
No, this is
theft and resale
of computer...
Okay, that's
just theft.
So if I
sell something
that means
I'm hacking?
Yes.
Yeah, I'm
such an uber
hacker, I
broke through
a window and
stole a
computer.
Fear!
I hacked
the candy
bar out
of the
store.
Yeah, and
it's only
hacking because
the candy
bar has
an RFID
in it.
I'm going
to skip
a couple.
Crimes
involving
pornography,
especially
images of
children involved
in sexual
activity.
Okay,
without
stopping
that.
I don't
think a
kid knows
what they're
doing there.
Do they,
Zal?
Yeah,
Zal, how's
your porno
going?
You're the
one making
movies like
Windows Movie
Maker on
your touchscreen
computer.
I like
to touch
things.
Touch
screen,
doesn't
have to
use
his hands.
I can
fully
understand
that.
And you
know what?
If anybody
is listening
from the
NCFI,
if you want
me to come
help,
I would
be more
than happy
to help,
even if
you're just
doing that.
I mean,
most of
these other
things I
wouldn't do,
I wouldn't
come and
help you
just for
that.
But just
for the
underage
pornography,
I would
come and
help you
for that.
Not that I
would actually
look at it
or anything.
I'm just...
I want to
stop it.
I want to
come,
I want to
investigate,
I want to
burn into
a CD,
I want to
solve this
problem.
I'm going
to skip
the rest
because I
want to
skip the
rest there.
And you
know,
I'm just
wondering
what the
Joe Six
back down
the street
is thinking
about all
of this,
if he read
this.
He's thinking...
I think he
would skip
over and go
to the article
about Paris Hilton.
Yeah,
I mean,
probably,
except that's
not on the
Hoover,
Alabama
webpage.
I mean,
I guess if he
was on
Slashdot or
something.
But we
digress.
I'm
wondering,
is this a
false sense
of security?
Are these
guys going
to do a
good job
at this?
It all
depends on
what they
teach them,
what perspective
they come at
to teach
to these
students that
come in.
Where are
they going
to get
the teachers?
Well,
it's going
to start
off by being
staffed with,
I think it
should be
down here
at the
bottom.
Staffed
with,
like,
six
Secret Service
Agents.
I'm not
seeing it.
I don't
think it
actually says.
I'm just
going to go
with six
Secret Service
Agents.
Okay.
And that's
the Secret
Services.
That's what
the Secret
Services
is providing.
It might
be more,
it might
be less.
I don't.
Now,
I know
it's not
less than
thick.
They might
have actually
changed the
article here
from the
first time
I read it
because I'm
not seeing
it.
But, I
mean, hey,
they have the
experts on
here.
Well, supposed
experts, because
there's no
standard for
certification.
So, I mean,
they could be
calling themselves
experts and not
really be
experts.
I'm wondering
how might this
affect us
as hackers?
If they do
teach it from
a standard of,
hey, hackers
are bad, which
I really don't
think they are
because of the
way Homeland
Security has
put out this
press release.
I really don't
think they are.
And I think
we're going to
be fine.
But, I mean,
what do you
guys think?
I mean, how
do you think
this will affect
us if they
go, if law
enforcement actually
knows what
they're doing?
I think it
could help.
If they
execute it
right, not
I'm also
wondering what
the probability
of this working
at all is.
I mean,
something like
this has never
been done before.
If they get it
wrong, then
they could screw
up 1,500
people every
54 weeks,
I think it
was.
It's a 54-week
class.
48 calendar
weeks, so
they can screw
up 1,500
mines every
48 weeks.
That's pretty
efficient.
It's not
bad.
I can only
average about
4 or 5.
Yeah, I mean,
I've never
screwed up more
than 6 mines.
In a week?
Total.
I mean,
total, wow.
But, I mean,
I'd give them a
50-50 chance.
What do you
guys think?
I'm going to
reserve judgment.
Reserve judgment?
Okay.
I'll give
us the same
zero judgment.
I'll have to
see how it
turns out.
Okay.
Well, the
other thing
I'm thinking
is how we
might be
able to
help.
You know,
maybe they
need informants
out here for
stopping child
pornography.
I mean,
if they want
to help,
they can
contact me
and I will
help them.
I'm sure
they can get
my number,
no problem.
Faceman will
give you all
the child
pornographers
he knows
about.
Hundreds.
Which is
none.
Full contacts,
pictures.
Actually,
I take that
back because
I saw one
on MySpace
today.
But I
digress.
Just one?
I don't
like to look
at my space.
I don't like
to be on
MySpace,
so.
Oh,
it's my
homepage.
Oh,
damn.
Alright,
so,
when I call
these guys,
I'm going
to ask
how we
might be
able to
help,
so maybe
you might
hear an
answer
appended to
the end
of this
episode.
You might
not.
And I
would also
help.
Yeah.
By making
signatures for
everyone.
I'm sure
that there's
a lot of
people in
BinRev and
different places
that would
help because
they could
ask Enigma,
he'd get
right on it
and solve
all your
problems.
Yes.
Enigma
will take
care of
you.
I
heard
Enigma.
This show
is brought
to you by
Google Documents.
Watch out,
okay.
Yeah,
Google Documents,
we use that
for our show
notes here,
and it seems
to work
pretty well.
You skipped
over the
announcements.
Yes,
I have an
announcement to
make.
Kevin Rose
is in fact
awesome.
Okay.
He's so
weird.
Well,
shouts.
I've got
to give
shouts to
Strom and
Barbecue.
I'm going
to go ahead
and since
we spent
most of
the time
talking about
computer
security,
computer
crime,
and
computer
forensics,
there's a
podcast,
and I hate
that word,
but that's
what they
use,
called
CyberSpeak
that goes
into detail
about
computer
forensics,
computer
crime,
and computer
security.
So I'd
recommend that
to anyone
who is
interested in
learning more
learning about
the process
is done,
those kind
of things.
Okay.
Do you have
a link or
anything?
You can find
them on
Google.
Just type
in CyberSpeaker.
I think
they're in
the iTunes
store thing,
and they
have an
RSS feed,
so you can
use any
client you
want besides
iTunes,
as with
most RSS
feed shows.
Okay.
Well,
my shouts
go out
to Royal
Enigma
and Not
Theory.
Oh,
definitely Not
Theory.
In fact,
we're on
his PBS
channel.
I get
shouts
to Not
Theory,
yes.
Yeah,
Not Theory.
Yeah.
So shouts
to Royal
Enigma
and Not
Theory,
and I
want to
give shouts
to the
country of
Israel,
and I
want to
express
my desire
that if
anybody
from
Israel,
mainly
the Mossad
or anybody,
wants me
to work
for them,
help them
out or
anything like
that,
I'm your
man.
It kind
but mainly
I'll work
for Israel
and the
NCFI
this week.
Our side
of the
week is
google.com
because I
didn't come
up with
one,
so our
side of
the week
is google.com.
Any feedback
for the
show,
this episode
or any
other shows,
if you
want to
call us
noobs
or yell
at me
for turning
the whole
show into
a rant
episode,
you can
email us
at
radio
at
binrev.com
and
we don't
have any
complaints,
you can
email your
complaints
to
enigma
for making
us do
the spur
of the
moment
show.
And if
you want
to yell
at anybody
just yell
at Savant.
Why do you
not like
Savant?
I like
Savant.
I like
Savant.
I'll give
a shout
to Savant.
Yeah,
shout
to Savant.
Alright.
So,
any feedback
whatsoever,
if you want
to say the
show was
awesome,
if you want
to say it
sucked,
if you want
to say,
hey,
don't ever
let these
guys on
BinRev Radio
again,
or anything,
send it to
radio at
binrev.com.
We do not
have any
closing music
yet,
but I
will tell
you what,
it will be
the best
closing music
you've ever
heard.
What do you
want me to
put in?
I don't
know,
we'll call
him something.
That clip
of me reading
Kevin Ridd's
Wikipedia article.
And once
again,
we'll see
everybody
same hack
time,
same hack
channel.
Okay,
well that
concludes the
show,
but Face
Man did
in fact,
it did that
interview,
so we're
going to go
ahead and
play that
now.
How are
you involved
in this
project?
I work
for the
Alabama
District
Attorneys
Association,
and I've
been a
career prosecutor
for some
16 years,
and we,
a couple of
folks here at
the office,
developed this
concept,
and was
promoted it
through partnerships
on the
federal and
state level.
How do
you apply
for the
school as
a student,
or how
are you
selected?
Well,
it depends
on from
what area
you would
be wanting
to attend
from,
I guess.
Law
enforcement
could apply
through some
of the
courses that
will be
taught through
the Secret
Service,
and those
courses will
be offered
sometime
after the
first of the
year.
And so I
guess there
would be
really a
myriad of
ways that
you would
apply to
be able to
take the
courses.
But the
main thrust
will be for
law enforcement
keeping them
abreast and
updated with
new and
advanced concepts
and digital
evidence,
that kind of
thing.
Okay.
How are the
instructors
chosen?
The
instructors
will be,
some will
be, I
would imagine
staff,
Secret
Service agents
that already
train and
teach in
this area.
But other
will be
people that
are already
established,
I would
imagine
initially
people who
are established
within the
industry.
Proctors and
facilitators
will come in
and also
assist in
teaching some
of the
classes,
because the
classes are
going to be
different.
I mean,
we're talking,
I know your
area is
someone about
network intrusions,
but we're
talking about
computer forensics,
first responder
people,
individuals who
respond to
digital crime
scenes,
which could
be a murder
scene where
somebody has
conspired with
someone else
through email.
Some people
think about
computer technology
crime and
think only
about pornography
or they
think only
about network
intrusion or
hacking,
but it's
everything.
I mean,
drug deals
are set up
through text
messaging and
through cell
phones.
So, you
know, the
communication
age, the
digital age
involves
everything.
There's many
aspects of
our lives
that are
touched by
it.
They're also
in the
criminal world
where they
use the
same technology
that we
use.
So, it
can be
really any
particular area
that they
can delve
into.
Yes, and
I fully
understand that.
Myself, I'm
what we call a
phone freak, and
I learn about
the telephone
systems mainly.
Criminals can
definitely do
that sort of
thing.
They go into
all sorts of
technology.
There's so many
things that's
tagging, there's
so many things
that can be
done, particularly
as things move
wireless and
things move
smaller.
We just need to
keep up with
that technology.
We don't want
to wake up
one day and
being in law
enforcement or
in any branch
as a prosecutor
not being able to
understand the
technology.
So, five years
from now, we
want to be right
there with what's
happening.
One of the
things mentioned
in the press
release was a
smart courtroom.
Could you
elaborate on that?
Yes, kind of
thought process
that I had was
to create a
courtroom that
has every bit
of technology
that you could
conceivably put
into a courtroom
where the
tables and the
jury box,
everything's
interactive.
You have the
judge and the
jury and the
counsel tables
and the witness
stand are all
linked through
wireless communication
devices.
so if a witness
on the witness
stand is showing
something that's
very small,
then the jurors
would be able to
look at that
through some type
of digital means
through a computer
screen.
See it close up
instead of having
to walk around
and pass it
around.
This is for
training purposes.
This would be a
courtroom where
people could come
in from Kansas,
Nebraska,
California and
look at a
courtroom and say
that would work
or we could take
that technology
back to our
hometown and present
evidence in cases
this way.
And so,
you know,
it helps everybody.
I talked to a
newspaper today,
I gave an interview
today on this
same concept.
And it's not
necessarily that
we're seeking to
collect evidence to
say,
oh,
we're going to
convict someone.
We collect evidence
to seek justice.
And more times
than not,
what we collect
and what we do
proves someone
didn't do
something.
Yeah.
as much as
it proves that
we did.
It's only when
somebody's arrested
does it make
the paper.
You know,
when we clear
people,
you know,
or there's an
investigation that
shows,
well,
that person's not
a suspect anymore,
that's not in
the headlines.
So,
you know,
for the police
to be able to
collect evidence
to show what
really happened
is what we're
seeking to do.
You know,
I mean,
by collecting
this digital evidence,
we may give
somebody an alibi
that they would
never have been
able to prove
otherwise.
But because they
left the digital
footprint through
a GPS or
through a cell phone,
we can show
they weren't
there at the
scene of the
crime.
Or they were
there at the
scene of the
crime.
So,
you know,
that's kind
of our goal.
But I kind
of digress
from the
smart courtroom.
We just want
to be able
to train
people in
that courtroom
to be able
to put people
on the witness
stand to show
them what it's
like to be
cross-examined.
Or how do
you present
evidence that
you retrieved
from a cell phone?
How do you
display it to a
jury so we can
kind of work
through those
things in this
courtroom before
somebody goes
back to
Nebraska or
Kansas and
has to do
it's live.
Okay.
I personally
think that that
is an excellent
idea, especially
for the jury
who is normally
not trained on
technical issues.
No, you're
exactly right.
And it's just
to have this
space.
And in the
early, I guess,
concept meetings
about this
institute having
this, that was
one of the
things that I
just, as a
courtroom
prosecutor, because
that's what I
do, and I've
done it for
many years, I
understand how
difficult it is
to be able to
convey to a
jury the
idea or
thought you
have about a
particular piece
of evidence, and
this will really
help us in being
able to do
that.
You know, if
you've got some
type of, you
know, device or
equipment and you
want to put
something up on
a screen, if you
have a small
photograph or a
small piece of
evidence, if you've
got a bullet and
it matches a
shell case, well,
instead of having
someone tell them
that it matches,
you know, you
can put it on a
piece of equipment
and it will
display, you
know, on a
projector screen
for a jury, and
that's the kind of
stuff you see on
television a lot, but
you know, most
courtrooms, most
places in the
country don't have
that, and sometimes
it's resources,
sometimes it's
money, but a lot
of times it's the
fear of the
technology, and if
we can remove a
little bit of that
mystique when they
come here to train,
then maybe they'll
be able to take that
back and be able to
utilize that in that
courtroom.
And I know with
fear of technology,
one of the things that
I've realized in the
hacking scene is
that people fear
what they don't
understand.
Oh, yeah.
I believe, to me,
information is power,
and the more
information people
have, the more
empowered they are
to make decisions,
and so being able
to, you know,
that's what we're
talking about here,
is being able to
collect information
in investigations or
in whatever situation
it is, maybe there's
an identity theft or
whatever there is,
for the people
responsible for
making a case or
doing what's right,
for them to have
as much information
as they can so
they can make
the right decision
to charge somebody
or not charge
somebody, to go
for a jury to
make the right
decision, an
employer, you
know, so don't
leave any stone
unturned, and this
just gives us a
tool to turn them
over.
Can you tell us a
little bit about
the class curriculum?
Right now, we're
looking at probably
a first responder
type course
initially that
would have, you
know, we know
what to do when
we go in and
see, you know, a
dead body or
a bank's been
robbed, but if
you walk in and
you've got somebody
that's been using
a computer to
counterfeit the
stocks and bonds,
you know, or you've
got somebody who's
been running a
child pornography
website, what do
you do?
Do they turn the
machine off?
Do they unplug
it?
Do they search
it there?
Do you need a
search warrant for
the computer and
the house?
You know, what I
do as a police
officer in rural
Kansas, what do I
do?
How do I handle
that scene?
And we'll teach
that.
So it sounds like
you might actually
be making some of
the laws as you
learn about this.
Yeah, I mean,
there's, I mean,
the police officers,
you know, we can't
collect any digital
evidence either
through a computer
hard drive or
from an email or
from a cell phone
unless we do it
the same way we
collect blood and
fingerprints.
It's got to, or
not fingerprints,
but blood or any
other physical
evidence we collect
now.
It's got to be a
search warrant,
consent, or some
other constitutionally
recognized means.
Yes.
So this is not
Big Brother, we're
not looking at
people's emails,
you know, we're
not listening to
phone calls.
You know, we get
those devices through
the way we get
things now.
Okay.
But what do we do
when we get there?
And we want to make
sure that police
officers understand
what their rights
are in collecting
evidence.
They don't leave
anything behind that
they're entitled to
get, but they don't
go beyond what
they're entitled to
get either.
First responder
courses of somebody
at a digital crime
scene, or any
crime scene that
involves digital
evidence.
Yes.
Probably a week,
long course, and
then there's
probably two,
initially two others,
one will be computer
forensics, which is,
you know, the mining
of the data, evidence
from hard drives or
whatever device,
cell phone, laptop,
whatever.
Yes.
And then there'll
be a network
intrusion courses,
and then we'll have
variations of those
courses for prosecutors,
judges, and then,
you know, some of the
corporate folks,
some of the, you know,
corporate financial,
banking, lending
institutions, that kind
of thing, that are
getting, you know,
pretty good as far as,
you know, internal,
not necessarily internal
thefts, but corporate
thefts, people, you're
breaking into systems,
that kind of thing,
financial losses,
identity theft, that
kind of thing.
There'll be, you know,
some courses designed
with those folks through
the foundation we've
created.
We want to work with,
the foundation will also
work with, hopefully,
some of the hardware
and software industry as
far as some of the,
you know, things that
they do as far as,
you know, if we need,
if we need to work up
new protocols, that kind
of stuff, there'll be
some of those things
there as well.
Okay, and my final
question is, how do
you think that hackers
might be able to help
you?
You know, I tell you,
I know I've seen and
read a lot of the
literature, I know the
conventions are in
Vegas and I haven't
been to them and I've
thought about going to
some of those things
and I guess, you
know, education in
working with law
enforcement, if your
goal is to only to
learn and get
information but not
hurt the system or the
people who own the
system, you know, if
you're looking at
something, I guess if
you've gone into a
system, if your goal
is not to hurt the
system, when I say
system, I'm talking
about a network
system.
Yes, yes, I
understand that.
Or damage or hurt,
you know, someone who's
connected to that, then
I guess, you know, your
ability to train or
educate us, I guess,
would be invaluable.
I know I had a case not
long ago where someone
had gone into a, it
was a juvenile, had
gone into a system
and, you know, one of
the things that we
wanted to learn was,
you know, how?
You know, how'd you do
it?
And, I mean, that was,
that's, you know, that
would be a big help to
law enforcement, I think,
to be able to
understand, you know,
weaknesses and that
kind of thing because
there's so many systems
that are vulnerable and
there's so many people
that are malicious in
their intent and, you
know, want to do
damage.
And I really don't
understand that.
That's one of the
things I've always, I
guess, struggled with
for years is, you
know, just vandalism,
really.
Yeah, it doesn't make
sense to me at all.
I really never, as a
kid, I didn't understand
it and I don't now, but
I know it exists.
And, you know, my
career started as a
counselor for troubled
kids and I worked with
them and I understand,
you know, there are
things that I don't
understand and I
probably never will.
If I prosecuted a
triple murder case, I
can't understand why
this person did the
brutal acts that he
did to that family.
So, you know, I kind
of quit trying to figure
things out and just
try to help the people
who have been hurt by
it, but, you know,
I've worked with
people who have had
their identities
stolen and years
later they're still
trying to unweave the
mess.
Yeah.
And so, you know,
somebody goes in and
just, you know, and
hurts or harms a
system like that.
It's hard for me to
understand the, you
know, just that
maliciousness to want
to hurt a system or
hurt people associated
with it, but, you
know, they do.
And so I guess from
you guys is when you,
who's going to find,
who's going to know
about bad seeds before
you do?
Nobody.
You're going to know
first.
And I guess any way
that you can, and I
know nobody likes to
turn folks in, that
kind of thing.
I'm not advocating
that, but.
Well, we, I
believe that we are
more than happy to
turn somebody in if
we see that they're
doing something that
is distinctly illegal.
Yeah.
Well, that's just, I
think that's the big
help is being able to
identify folks and
try to, you know,
educate that, you
know, that it's just
not, it's just not
right to damage what
someone else has
worked really hard to
create.
And, you know,
unfortunately, that's a
big part of what
happens out there.
I see it all the
time.
I get people calling
their website, they've
got a small business
and, you know, and
they can't open up,
they can't go because
somebody's going in and
changed prices, changed
order forms, you know,
and now they've had to
shut their website down
and lost them a week
and a week in a
small business can
kill yourself, can
kill your entire
industry that you've
created.
So, you know, and
there's nothing done
for no other reason
other than it was
somebody could.
Yeah.
So I guess identifying
those folks and
helping law enforcement
would be a big plus.
Thank you very much.
Sure, sure.
I hope I've answered
your questions.
Feel free to call me.
You've got my number.
Yes, I do.
And just keep in
touch.
And what's your
website again?
It is binrev.com,
B-I-N-R-E-V.
What you just heard
was an interview with
Barry Mattson, who
works for the Alabama
District Attorney's
Office, by myself,
Faceman, who works
for no one.
Except for me, of
course.
Barry cleared up a
few things that I'm
sure we got wrong
in the episode, and
I think kind of the
main thing he cleared
up was kind of the
attitude towards
hackers that we
felt was wrong, but
I think we realized
that this was
mainly just the
Hoover Press
Secretary, that
Barry's not a bad
guy.
I want to
absolutely thank
Barry for taking
the time out of
his day to do
an interview, which
took, I think it
was a 17-minute
interview, and I
definitely want to
thank him for that.
And we're going to
be in contact.
if anybody wants
to help out in
any way, if you
want to send
something that you
may know that you
think the National
Computer Forensics
Institute may find of
use, if you'll send
that to me, I'll send
that to him.
I don't want to drop
his email address on
the show because I
didn't ask him.
So if he doesn't
mind if he'll send
me an email, maybe
I'll have Enigma put
that in the show
notes.
But again, I want
to thank Barry
Mattson for taking
the time out of his
day to do that
interview.
And in the episode,
we really kind of
had, a lot of it
was spent on a rant
that this might not
work out too well.
But after talking
with Barry, I am in
the firm belief that
this is going to be
an absolutely excellent
program, and I'm
going to help out
however I can.
I definitely think
this is a good thing
for the community,
and one of the
things that we
kind of talked
about that I
realize now is
that this isn't
just about crimes
dealing with
computers.
Well, it is
dealing with
computers, but it
seems that the
National Computer
Forensics Institute
is more about the
computers involved
with normal crimes
from what we
discussed, but it
also would deal
with regular network
intrusions and the
DRM, digital rights
management, and
everything else that's
on the list in the
press release, but
that it's not just
focused towards that.
He mentioned
murder a couple of
times and the
computers in that
area, and how the
agents or the police
don't know what to
do, and I think
that's a major
problem, and this
should eliminate
some of that, and
it's an absolutely
excellent idea that
they have here.
And the other
thing I was
wondering about was
could the regular
old Joe Sixpack
down the road go
to this, and the
answer is sort of.
The school, as he
said, is available to
anybody in computer
security, but it's
mainly for local
law enforcement and
federal agencies and
law enforcement in
general, and judges
and prosecutors and
things of that nature.
So, I mean, I
believe that you
could apply for it.
We spent a little
bit of time on that,
but a majority of
our time was spent on
the smart courtroom,
sort of, and kind of
the ignorance that the
regular jury has.
And one of the things
we got and said in
the show was that it
would be, it would
be, hmm, Drake,
you're going to have
to edit this part out.
My pause here.
Oh, thanks,
Faceman, because if
you didn't say
anything, I would
have just left it
in.
In fact, I'm going
to leave it in now.
What the hell?
It would be for
training purposes and
not for an active
courtroom, which is
kind of something we
kind of assumed on
the show.
But overall, it was
an absolutely excellent
interview.
We covered all the
major topics.
He straightened out a
few things, and I've
said this before, and I
don't know why I'm
saying it again, but
one of the things that
Barry mentioned was
cons in Las Vegas,
which we, of course,
know as DEFCON, and
his interest in the
hacker mindset.
So maybe we'll be
seeing him around the
forums, DEFCON,
HOPE, maybe the
local 2600 meetings.
Barry, if you're
listening, you can
consider that your
official invitation to
come join us.
So, once again, I want
to thank him for being
such a great interviewee.
It was my first
interview.
It was my first time to
really kind of act like
the press, and I think
it was a lot of fun, and
that's what the show is
all about, learning,
having fun, and I think
we definitely had a lot
of fun on this episode.
So, thanks to everybody,
and shouts to the NCFI
and Barry Mattson.
What am I supposed to
put at the end?
Jazz music.
Jazz music, okay.
cheerNEY.
Oh-oh-oh-oh.
Oh-oh-oh.
Go
good
Thank you.