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Israelis Lost The Lebanon Massacre?
Hersh points out that the current situation is much like that
during the conflict in Afghanistan in the 1980's – which gave rise
to al Qaeda – with the same people involved in both the US and Saudi
Arabia and the "same pattern" of the US using jihadists that the
Saudis assure us they can control.
When asked why the administration would be acting in a way that
appears to run counter to US interests, Hersh says that, since the
Israelis lost to them last summer, "the fear of Hezbollah in
Washington, particularly in the White House, is acute."
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Bush Backs Sunni Fatah al-Islam
As a result, Hersh implies, the Bush administration is no longer
acting rationally in its policy. "We're in the business of
supporting the Sunnis anywhere we can against the Shia. ... "We're
in the business of creating ... sectarian violence." And he
describes the scheme of funding Fatah al-Islam as "a covert program
we joined in with the Saudis as part of a bigger, broader program of
doing everything we could to stop the spread of the Shia world, and
it just simply -- it bit us in the rear."
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RUSH TRANSCRIPT
HALA GORANI: Well, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh
reported back in March that in order to defeate Hezbollah, the Lebanese
government supported a Sunni militant group, the same ones they're
fighting today. Seymour joins us live from
Washington. Thanks for being with us. What is the source of the
financing according to your reporting on these groups, such as Fatah
al-Islam in these camps of Nahr el Bared, for instance? Where are
they getting the money and where are they getting the arms?
SEYMOUR HERSH: The key player is the Saudis.
What I was writing about was sort of a private
agreement that was made between the White House, we're talking about
Richard -- Dick -- Cheney and Elliott Abrams, one of the key aides in
the White House, with Bandar. And the idea was to get support,
covert support from the Saudis, to support various hard-line jihadists,
Sunni groups, particularly in Lebanon, who would be seen in case of an
actual confrontation with Hezbollah -- the Shia group in the southern
Lebanon -- would be seen as an asset, as simple as
that.
GORANI: The Senora government, in order to counter the influence of
Hezbollah in Lebanon would be covertly according to your reporting
funding groups like Fatah al-Islam that they're having issues with right
now?
HERSH: Unintended consequences once again, yes.
GORANI: And so if Saudi Arabia and the Senora government are doing this,
whether it's unintended or not, therefore it has the United States must
have something to say about it or not?
HERSH: Well, the United States was deeply involved. This was a covert
operation that Bandar ran with us. Don't forget, if you remember, you
know, we got into the war in Afghanistan with supporting Osama bin
Laden, the mujahadin back in the late 1980s with Bandar and with people
like Elliott Abrams around, the idea being that the Saudis promised us
they could control -- they could control the jihadists so we spent a lot
of money and time, the United States in the late 1980s using and
supporting the jihadists to help us beat the Russians in Afghanistan and
they turned on us. And we have the same pattern, not as if there's any
lessons learned. It's the same pattern, using the Saudis again to
support jihadists, Saudis assuring us they can control these various
group, the groups like the one that is in contact right now in Tripoli
with the government.
GORANI: Sure, but the mujahadin in the '80s was one era. Why would it be
in the best interest of the United States of America right now to
indirectly even if it is indirect empower these jihadi movements that
are extremists that fight to the death in these Palestinian camps?
Doesn't it go against the interests not only of the Senora government
but also of America and Lebanon now?
HERSH: The enemy of our enemy is our friend, much as the jihadist groups
in Lebanon were also there to go after Nasrullah. Hezbollah, if you
remember, last year defeated Israel, whether the Israelis want to
acknowledge it, so you have in Hezbollah, a major threat to the
American -- look, the American role is very
simple. Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state, has been very
articulate about it.
We're in the business now of supporting the Sunnis anywhere we can
against the Shia, against the Shia in Iran, against the Shia in Lebanon,
that is Nasrullah. Civil war. We're in a business of creating in some
places, Lebanon in particular, a sectarian violence.
GORANI: The Bush administration, of course, officials would disagree
with that, so would the Senora government, openly pointing the finger at
Syria, saying this is an offshoot of a Syrian group, Fatah al-Islam is,
where else would it get its arms from if not Syria.
HERSH: You have to answer this question. If that's true, Syria which is
close -- and criticized greatly by the Bush administration for being
very close -- to Hezbollah would also be supporting groups, Salafist
groups -- the logic breaks down. What it is simply is a covert
program we joined in with the Saudis as part of a bigger broader program
of doing everything we could to stop the spread of the Shia,
the Shia world, and it bit us in the rear, as it's happened before.
GORANI: Sure, but if it doesn't make any sense for the Syrians to
support them, why would it make any sense for the U.S. to indirectly, of
course, to support, according to your reporting, by giving a billion
dollars in aid, part of it military, to the Senora government -- and if
that is dispensed in a way that that government and the U.S. is not
controlling extremist groups, then indirectly the United States,
according to the article you wrote, would be supporting them. So why
would it be in their best interest and what should it do according to
the people you've spoken to?
HERSH: You're assuming logic by the United States government. That's
okay. We'll forget that one right now. Basically it's very simple. These
groups are seeing -- when I was in Beirut doing interviews, I talked to
officials who acknowledged the reason they were tolerating the radical
jihadist groups was because they were seen as a protection against
Hezbollah. The fear of Hezbollah in Washington, particularly in
the White House, is acute. They just simply believe that Hassan
Nasrallah is intent on waging war in America.
Whether it's true or not is another question. There is a supreme
overwhelming fear of Hezbollah and we do not want Hezbollah to play an
active role in the government in Lebanon and that's been our policy,
basically, which is support the Senora government, despite its weakness
against the coalition. Not only Senora but Mr. Ahun, former military
leader of Lebanon. There in a coalition that we absolutely abhor.
GORANI: All right, Seymour Hersh of "The New Yorker" magazine, thanks
for joining us there and hopefully we'll be able to speak a little bit
in a few months' time when those developments take shape in Lebanon and
we know more. Thanks very much.
HERSH: glad to talk to you.
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