Count Zero
Member of the Cult of the Dead Cow
February 5 -- 
Count Zero, as he prefers to be
called, is a co-founder of l0pht and member of the Cult of the Dead
Cow, two long-standing hacker groups.
Count Zero says he began as a "classic" hacker in his teenage years,
but has given up breaking into protected computers in favor of
"studying the complex exchange of ideas on the Internet" and hackers'
"role in it all." He is a strong proponent of "hacktivism" -- using
computers and hacking as a tool for social change.
Count Zero is 31 years old, lives in Boston, and works in the "real
world" in the health care field. He also works at a major university
conducting research in computer-supported cooperative work.
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Moderator at 3:00pm ET
Hello, everyone. We're just waiting for Count Zero to chime in and say
hello, and then we'll get started. If you haven't posted your
question, go right ahead!
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Count Zero at 3:01pm ET
ahoy...
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Count Zero at 3:01pm ET
I'm ready when you are.
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Moderator at 3:02pm ET
Hi, there. Thanks for taking the time to chat with us, and please
extend our thanks to the cDc for helping us with our story. First
question coming right up....
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open-Bin from poly.edu at 3:02pm ET
Most hackers do "this" for the fun of it, most do it for the
challenge, most do it to test system security and finally most do it
to be Known. Which motivated you..?
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Count Zero at 3:03pm ET
I was motivated by curiosity and challenge. Being "known" had nothing
to do with it. I was always interested in how the innards of things
worked (mechanical and electrical). Hacking was just a way of
expressing that curiosity.
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oldHACK from [199.234.170.24], at 3:04pm ET
Are the new breed in it for the "edge," or just bored? In college I
learned Assembly Code and others on AT's, and it's still a buzz to not
be fazed when "cracking the case" or fixing Windows hangups.
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Count Zero at 3:07pm ET
Well, I think the "old breed" of hackers sometimes forget what it was
like to be a "young breed." I think younger hackers are doing it for
all the same reasons that us "old school" hackers did it...sometimes
we were just bored, sometimes it was curiosity, and sometimes it was
even a bit malicious...like knocking over mailboxes, etc.
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nikki from [208.236.166.77], at 3:07pm ET
How do you study to be a hacker?
Where do you start?
What kind of programing is helpful to know?
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Count Zero at 3:11pm ET
You don't study to be a hacker...you read BOOKS and MANUALS
first...heh. I would go thru weird technical manuals just for the
sheer enjoyment of learning how something worked. Also, meeting OTHER
hackers was key in my life. I learned much from older hackers, both
technical things and even philosophical things... That's why I started
writing things and trying to organize other hackers into "clubs"..to
get people talking to each other and the free flow of ideas going. As
for programming, that's totally arbitrary. But Java is
everywhere....and when in Rome... :)
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Quicksilver from [206.154.192.3], at 3:12pm ET
Where's the line between hacking and cracking? What should we do about
people's legitimate rights to use the web v. the ability to abuse it?
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Count Zero at 3:15pm ET
When I was a kid and learning about computers, you HAD to "crack" a
bit to explore the Net (cracking= explicitly breaking into computers
where you don't belong!). There were no commercial ISPs or ways you
could set up your OWN system, and if you weren't in college there was
no legit way to get an account or an email address. But THESE days, I
think most hackers are actually setting up their own servers, their
own networks...there's no real reason to break the law to explore. And
as for legitimate rights to use the web, I think EVERYONE has a right
to say whatever they want. Freedom of expression is very important to
hackers. Anything that seriously stifles that is wrong.
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Capt. Hemp from mindspring.net at 3:16pm ET
How do you feel about the fact that Back Orifice is being used pretty
much exclusively for malicious intent by script kiddies that couldn't
hack their way out of a wet paper bag?
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Count Zero at 3:19pm ET
Back Orifice is a powerful tool, and yes, it can be easily used for
malicious intent. But that's true of ANY powerful tool...software,
hardware, machines..... and it doesn't mean BO should not have been
released. Should all knives be outlawed because they're used to commit
crimes?
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Robin from [207.40.245.30], at 3:20pm ET
You use the word "hacktivism". Are you implying that hacking has some
good points?
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Count Zero at 3:25pm ET
First of all, hacking is, by it's very nature, a GOOD thing. It's
about exploring and pushing the boundaries of knowledge. Hacking is
not just related to computers. Columbus was a hacker...scientists and
researchers are by their nature, hackers. "Hacktivism" is the
evolution of activism in a wired, global community. Using hacking
"techniques" to achieve activist goals. And like "real world"
activism, sometimes "hacktivism" involves breaking the
law.....spraypainting slogans on a public wall vs. altering a
website...both are the same level, in my mind. Also, what some people
call "hacktivism" is, in my mind, really "information warfare."
InfoWar is about nuking your enemy..stifling their expression...and
that's something that "hacktivism" definitely is NOT.
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KRASH2c from spencer1.wvadventures.net at 3:25pm ET
Hey Count Zero. Ya know your my hero? Yeah keep the power movin
hacktavism, yeah thats what I'm groovin. What do you think about this
whole Declaration of War on China and Iraq?
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Moderator at 3:26pm ET
For our readers' information, a group of hackers recently declared an
"infowar" on China and Iraq, threatening their computer
infrastructures. The cDc, l0pht, 2600, and others have spoken out
against the declaration.
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Count Zero at 3:28pm ET
Hackers declaring InfoWar on Iraq and China is stupid, stupid,
stupid...by taking out the telecommunications infrastructure of a
country, you're hurting the PEOPLE in that country more than anything
else..you're taking away their eyes and ears. BUT...focusing on
empowering the people in those places with the TOOLS of
hacktivism......making the WORLD know about the injustices and human
rights abuses....in other words, getting the FLOW of INFORMATION
pumpin' around the globe...UNIMPEDED and UNCENSORED.....THAT'S
hacktivism...!
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Leo from as.wcom.net at 3:29pm ET
Who is at risk of being hacked into? What can one do about it?
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Count Zero at 3:30pm ET
...and if anyone threatens the free flow of information....hackers
should use ALL their "skills" to stop that.. :)
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Count Zero at 3:34pm ET
Leo, if your computer has a wire out the back of it connecting it to
the world, then you're at risk...period. That sounds flippant, but
it's true. The only way to be 100% secure is to have a computer in an
RF-shielded bunker with a dude with a rifle at the door checking
retinal patters. What can you do about malicious hacking? Well, you
can FIRST complain to MAJOR SOFTWARE COMPANIES that tell their users
"oh, yeah, your software/operating system is secure...go for it," and
then secretly try to patch and re-patch and re-re-patch security flaws
and holes like some insane quiltwork. Make yourself AWARE of what
EXACTLY is running on your computer...and what the insecurities
are....
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Lone Paranoid from [209.191.21.78], at 3:36pm ET
Call 'em Hackers, crackers, whatever, but I've noticed a new element
of politically-driven kids in Chatrooms and websites who unleash
viruses and 'freeze' people out who don't agree with their particular
socioreligious views.
As in Abortion chats, where the young pro-life drones seem more
aggressive than ever.
This concerns me as a Net User and a Pro Choice activist, and I am
wondering how or what can be done to thwart or retaliate to these
people? I sense they are like the young ones in the article, more
destructive, less informed but just as deadly...
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Count Zero at 3:39pm ET
The best thing you can do about destructive, malicious young hackers
is to EDUCATE them. I remember a time when I was a young hacker, and
filled with confusion and free-floating anger, but also insatiable
curiosity..in other words, a typical teenager.. :) If it hadn't been
for older hacker friends who guided my skills in CREATIVE ways, I
might have turned out much different. It's like in the real world, if
you see a kid who's in a gang and doing crimes, you try to channel
their skills into something POSITIVE. Show young hackers how cool it
is to CREATE stuff...write new software....and how the FREE EXPRESSION
of ideas on the Net is the coolest thing.
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syfur from dial.wxs.nl at 3:40pm ET
I always thought that a hacker
hacked into servers, not into
workstations. So what's the use
of Bo then?
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Count Zero at 3:42pm ET
Well, these days, EVERY computer is essentially a server...the power
of your desktop workstation is great enough to run what used to be
dedicated "server" functions, like shared file spaces and FTPd. With
BO, you can turn a desktop workstation into a webserver without the
user even knowing about it.
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aNvil from [158.189.2.52], at 3:43pm ET
iwirk for a infosec firm and they bill me out to clients for an unreal
amount of money to do hacking security related tasks. Did you ever
think that one could make a living (and a very comfortable one at
that) by hacking?
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Count Zero at 3:48pm ET
Years ago, I never planned on making a living hacking, and honestly
didn't expect hacking to ever be such a popular subject in the press
as it is now. I think it's pretty wild how quickly hackers have gone
from being nerdy geeks in basements to people with skills that are
extremely valuable in the "real world." In an electronic global
village, hackers are now real GUIDES...exploring the wildlife, knowing
what plants are safe to eat, and how to avoid getting snatched up by
'gators. It's cool, and it's also a really big SOCIAL
responsibility....hackers have to do the right thing...the future of
electronic free speech really depends on it.
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Lonely from proxy.aol.com at 3:49pm ET
What do you think about the stereotype being used against hackers and
stating that they are all "malicious" also, what do you think about
the situation with Kevin Mitnick?
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Count Zero at 3:53pm ET
People who stereotype all hackers as "malicious" are just afraid of
the power that hackers have in general. To oversimplify a bit, hackers
know how computers work....and you depend on computers more and more
each day....and every day the average person feels like they know LESS
and LESS about how all the computers work around them. Knee-jerk
stereotyping hackers as all "evil" is natural in this
circumstance...people are simply afraid. Sure, some hackers are
malicious....but that's just a common human trait that you'll find in
any population. As for Kevin Mitnick, I think it's a tragedy...and I
hope people don't forget about the situation as it drags on. Go to
www.2600.com for all the details if you don't know...
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biggie from [157.89.46.1], at 3:54pm ET
What is the classiest hack you know of?
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Count Zero at 3:58pm ET
I remember at a hacker convention in Las Vegas (defcon), I saw one of
those huge video screens mounted outside of one of the hotels on the
Strip. It was blasting a constant stream of mindless video
drivel...advertisements, etc. I came back later in the day, and I saw
that the whole screen was now a computer desktop, and I saw a huge
mouse pointer clicking here and there, exploring the system. I'm
pretty sure it was a hacker exploring the computer that was sending
the video, and I thought.. this is hacking...LIVE and 50 feet
tall....everyone who saw it laughed.
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Jo from [209.47.5.226], at 3:58pm ET
I've read about you (the cult of the dead cow) for some time. What, if
anything, inspired the name. Just Curious.
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Count Zero at 4:02pm ET
If I remember correctly, the founder of the group years ago was
exploring an old slaughterhouse and was inspired by the...well, dead
cows, lying everywhere. :) Someone recently wrote: "You don't go to
cDc and get a steak. You get a dead cow. It's fresh and raw and not
always pretty." Raw information..uncensored...no pretty packaging,
just the REAL STUFF. That, to me, is what the name really implies...
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Moderator at 4:03pm ET
Folks, we're going to have to wrap this up. Sorry we couldn't get to
all the questions, folks, but thanks for your participation. Count
Zero, thanks for stopping by. You can read more about hackers here on
ABCNEWS.com, and the cDc site is at http://www.cultdeadcow.com.
Thanks!
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Count Zero at 4:04pm ET
You're welcome...my pleasure..and if anyone wants to ask me stuff by
email, I'd be happy to chat...my homepage is http://www.count0.com/
... and my email is count0@cultdeadcow.com.
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