From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 06:39:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA04009 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:38:51 -0800 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA03950 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:38:38 -0800 Received: from holodeck.cc.vt.edu (holodeck.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.28]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA06516 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:38:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512011438.JAA06516@quackerjack.cc.vt.edu> Received: from as2511-1.sl006.cns.vt.edu by holodeck.cc.vt.edu with SMTP (8.6.12/16.2) id JAA13539; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:38:03 -0500 X-Sender: raedward@mail.vt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 10:02:24 +0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: raedward@vt.edu (Rance Edwards) Subject: fnrg: Hi! Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Everyone, I'm new to the list, and would like to introduce myself. My name is Rance Edwards, and I'm a freshman in Computer Engineering at Virginia Tech. I've always been interested in 'Cutting Edge' type technology, especially the kind the average person could build and experiment with. As I have read a few of the notes posted to the list so far, I've noted that they are fairly technically above me. But I'm going to hang in there and try to absorb what I can. Don't be surprised, though, if I pop in with a basic question! :) In fact I've got one now, what is bifilar coil? I look forward to talking with everyone here! Take it easy, Rance Edwards raedward@vt.edu From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 01:50:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA16889 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:30:39 -0800 Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA16810 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:30:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199512011930.LAA16810@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 13:11:56 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Scalar energy debate (long!) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:38 AM 11/30/95 EST, you wrote: >If the majority of scientists have missed scalar theory for as long as has >been the case, is'nt it a bit much to expect that if a person has some >understanding of scalar technology that they automatically should be able >to explain it to almost anyone? I believe I can explain clearly anything I claim to understand, certainly not verbally on the fly, but in writing no problem. What follows immediately below is the sort of thing that basically is at the heart of my objection with the whole scalar thing: ========================================================= >>Tufts/CfA/MIT Cosmology Seminar, at Harvard: >> >> Dr. Andrew Heckler >> Fermilab >> >> Tuesday, October 31, 1995 >> 2:30 pm, Jefferson 461 >> Harvard Physics Department >> *** Note Room Change! This week only. *** >> >> "Nonperturbative Effects on Bubble Nucleation" >> >>Abstract: A nonperturbative correction to the thermal nucleation rate >>of critical bubbles in a first-order phase transition is estimated. >>Using a simple model of a SCALAR field in a double-well potential, we >>obtain a corrected potential which incorporates the free-energy density >>available from large-amplitude fluctuations, which is not included in >>the usual perturbative calculation. As an application of our method, we >>show how these corrections can both qualitatively and quantitatively >>explain anomalously high nucleation rates observed in 2-d numerical >>simulations. [emphasis on "SCALAR" added by me] ================================================== Notice "numerical simulations", i.e. mathematics. The same sort of mathematics that led Steven Hawking into being convinced that the universe is going to stop expanding, and at that point, TIME will then run in reverse, with everyone coming back to life, walking backwards, and going back into their mothers wombs. Would that it were true. But one of his students proved him wrong. Just goes to show how these supposed icons of wisdom are just blowing smoke much of the time, not knowing what they are talking about. We are too easily fooled by a lot of abstract words strung together to mimic sophistication, but most students know what gets the 'A'. There are too many wannabe Maxwell's, who don't realize that he based his math on the real world, instead of trying to work it the other way around. >Now I could post pages and pages of theory and equations and crud, "crud" is a good word for most of the stuff I've seen on scalarism. >or I could teach a few people how to build this or that, but not everyone has >the skills and knowlage to build electronics projects, and fewer still will >grasp all the implications of the devices actions. Some will "get it", >while others will not. Again, that's just the way it is. This is a good point you are making, among others, that there is no substitute for hands on experience in understanding something. But how does one build for something that (until your device perhaps) there is no means of measuring or detecting. Try getting some details out of Beardon on how to build something. Last time I paid any attention to his ramblings he was claiming that the information on how to build some particular thing was on page such-and-such of blah-blah book. An associate checked it out and found no such thing there. So I double-checked it afterward and found exactly that -- no such thing where Beardon said. This is not the only complaint I have heard that Beardon's references do not check out. One would think that the high priest of the church of scalar would know his scriptures a little better, or maybe he doesn't care, and figures most people are too lazy to follow up. So go out and build a device for phase conjugation. Don't forget to throw some transverse longitudinal waves into the mix. >From my understanding of it, a drinking glass sitting on a table is generating scalar energy, because there is a downward force on the table, and an equivalent reverse force by the material in the table itself, 180 degrees out of phase, but no movement, just tension. That means that a nine volt battery has scalar energy. Last time I checked it was called voltage. There is a force trying to push electrons, and an equally strong force resisting their movement (air). Connect up a wire and poof goes your scalar energy. If a scalar wave is the result of two waves 180 degrees out of phase, then I can generate those easily from an ordinary stereo by reversing the wires on one channel, setting it to mono, and piping a frequency in. Here is another example of how ridiculous this thing gets: http://blanche.polytechnique.fr/lactamme/Mosaic/images/PARADOXE.11.D/display .html That's a scalar image set, for those of you who are into it. Scalar schmalar. Somebody comes up with a few buzzwords, and everybody eagerly jumps on the bandwagon. And yet, a large number of the terms tossed around are not clearly defined, and that just leaves everyone wondering what it's all about. > Real understanding is not easy to come by in any field, including >conventional electromagnetics and scalar theory. "Theory". Right you are. And that is all it should be perceived as. >It's unreasonable to expect that almost anyone could grasp quantum >mechanics, why should scalar theory be somehow different? The ones who claim to understand quantum mechanics are just groping in the dark, making it up as they go along. That's science, and that's okay, but it winds up being glorified. My search on the word "scalar" also came up with this: http://www.ibg.uu.se/elektromagnum/physics/Bearden/ There is a link there saying: " Bearden Gives Up On Phase Conjugation" Now we're going to have a bunch of people running around claiming that Tesla Coils are Scalar Wave Generators, and then likely find out that somebody misplaced a digit in some equation, and the whole thing was just a big mistake after all like Steven Hawking's backwards time. It is tempting to explain Zero-Point this way: Zero -- the sum total of all of their reasonings Point -- the shape of the top of their heads ...but that wouldn't be too polite would it now, and would far under-evaluate your considerate answering of the questions posed, and would under-value your time in doing so. I salute you for tackling the questions, much appreciated. [More...] >"What are scalar fields and waves?" Scalars descrive situations where two >or more forces oppose each other, and apparently cancel themselves out, >violating the old idea that energy cannot be created or destroyed. >"What are the terms and how are they defined?" Sadly, there is no one set >of terms or definitions in use. Current electromagnetic theory has flaws >in it's basic definitions of terms, so we must use the existing terms from >electromagnetic theory very carefully, and question the accepted defintions >where experimetnal evidence shows weak spots in current understandings. >"Are they in all media or a special medium?" It appears that scalars can >be constructed from electromagnetic waves, mechanical forces, and perhaps >several other forms. The nature of teh original waves specifies the medium, >except for electromagnetic waves, where current theory holds there is no >medium, but this is debated to a degree still. > >"How are they propogated?" Again this is a function of the meduim. >Scalars appear to have several modes of propogation not yet well >understood. > >"What is the speed of propogation?" For scalar waves generated by >electromagnetic destructive interferance, the speed of propogation is >controlled by the degree fo cancellation. A pure scalar signal can indeed >travel in excess of the speed of light. > >"How do they differ from EM? Are they connected to EM or totaly seperate?" >They differ from EM waves in that EM waves are in fact a pair of scalars. >EM theory is a special case of scalar theory as Bearden has stated. They >are interchangable as shown in E.T. Whittakers papers cited by Bearden. > >"What is the mechanisim by which they transfer energy" Trick question, >what definition of energy are you using? I'll address this question by >refering to the answer above, EM waves are a special case of scalar theory. > Scalars are exchanged between systems, there is absorption for every >emission, the standard concepts of transmission and reception are not >easily seperated. > >"Is there a simple physical or mechanical analogy?" Yes, but only to a >limited degree. Imagine that we are each holding one end of a rope under >light tension. >If I move my end up and down quickly, a wave will ptopogate down that line >towards you. Lets cal this an electromagnetic wave propogating at c. Now, >instead of moving my und verticaly, i pull sharply on it. You now feel a >tug nearly as soon as I yank on the line. This is a scalar, it's tension >on the meduim itself, it propogates, but is not a normal "wave" at all. >This model explains the meains fo tranverse and longitudinal waves well >enough. What you described is simply a transverse and then a longitudinal wave, but I still don't see any scalar component per se. [I think you are saying that the longitudinal wave will travel faster than the speed of light, since the transverse wave represents light. Oh?] >"Are there any simple experimetns demonstrating them?" Yes, but "simple" >is a relitive term. There are practical experiments which demonstrate them, > as well as published work from main-stream physists that prove some of >these effects, suhc as the Aharnov-Bohm effect as an example. Please elaborate on that, because it otherwise means nothing to me. Sounds pretty impressive, hope that wasn't its purpose. >"And the biggy...How are thay related to free energy?" That's a bit >envolved, but I will go so far as to again point out that current physics >has issues in it's definitions and terminology, especially the lack of a >true definiton of energy. The old trueisim that energy is the ability to >do work is not suffieient. What keeps electrons circling their nucli? The >ability to do work? Hmmm. Well, again, I do appreciate that you took the time to answer some questions. We certainly agree that there are things that are not understood, and that to understand them, we need to look at things in an entirely different way. And perhaps scalars can open a few doors in that direction. Unfortunately most of the answers on scalar energy these days seem to be rather difficult to nail down. Debate is often a very important function in clarifying things. In a way, I am playing the devil's advocate. I hope your scalar energy is a reality, and that the originators and later researchers of it, such as yourself, have simply been hindered by far too little information to be able to shine a light directly onto it. *Somebody* has to do the exploring. It was said that static forces have been almost entirely ignored by our science, focusing instead on movement. Some consider that a missing element in the math, that would lead to a working set of unified field equations, and possibly create an understanding of gravity and so on, etc. But the church of scalar seems to have an awful lot of hype to it, present company exempted of course. I am guarding carefully against being wisked away into blind faith, and so I would like to see that hype converted to understanding. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 00:22:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA18070 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:21:07 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA18061 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:21:04 -0800 Received: from t18.dialup.peg.apc.org (t18.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.146]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id TAA28191 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:20:39 +1000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:20:39 +1000 Message-Id: <199512010920.TAA28191@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Several people agreed that a good laywer would need to be contacted on the >release of information and intellectual property rights. Quite some time >> >I'd probably do better to keep the material circulating "underground". > >Any other options? > > From: Jim Francis - author and publisher - Australia Simple answer - Get a couple of hundred copies of your manual printed as is and offer for sale at fairly high price. Make sure it has your copyright details in the front and register it with your national library. They will give you an ISBN number (or what ever is equivalent in your country). Then you are positively identified as the author....you get some interim money out of it .......and others on this list who are interested can gain access. Make sense? I've done this several times! The "paperback" version can wait till later. Good luck From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 04:04:06 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA28099 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:03:59 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA28051 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:03:50 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-56.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-56.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.56]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA25973 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:01:29 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512011201.XAA25973@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:04:33 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Magnifying Transmitter. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 29 Nov 95 at 21:23, Bert Pool, Leslie Pool wrote: [snip] > Bob, I have a question. Exactly what type of scalar detectors were used? I > have never seen a demonstration that shows the existance of a scalar field > from a mobius coil, a Hooper coil, a cadeuceus coil, a bifilar coil, or even > a Tesla coil. I can demonstrate the existance of an electrostatic field, > magnetic field, electromagnetic emission, photon emission, radio wave, light > wave, light particle even, but never has anyone shown me proof that scalar > fields, as being discussed here even exist! How do I create and MEASURE a > scalar field from, say, a simple bifilar coil which produces no measurable > magnetic field when connected to a battery? I've been told that the two > opposing fields produced by the two coil windings cancel, but then again > I've also been taught that cancellation or negation of energy is impossible, > and that the energy is instead converted to a scalar potential. I want to > wind a simple bifilar coil, power it up, and measure this scalar component. > If it exists, it can be measured. So how is the measurement done? How about > a simple workshop demo that will convince me that scalar potential is real? > > Bert I would like to add an observation here if I may. If a bifilar coil succeeds in suppressing any magnetic field, then I would expect it to behave as a normal resistance (i.e. have no inductance). If no energy is transferred by scalar field, then I would expect such a coil to have a resistance equal to that of the same piece of wire when not wound into the coil. Should the wire, on the other hand when wound as a coil, demonstrate some deviation from Ohm's law, then I would think it likely that some of the power supplied by the current was not being converted in to heat. (I.e. that it is a true scalar device). This behaviour, may however only be apparent when an alternating (or at least changing) current is passed through the coil. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 06:29:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA00706 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:29:20 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA00677 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:29:16 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA00172; Fri, 1 Dec 95 09:18:38 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 1 Dec 95 9:28:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 9:21:42 EST Message-Id: <4F06+pxkjkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: ...no subject... X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard Wayne Hall wrote: "In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently become longitudnal scalar transmission?" Actually, in an electromagnetic wave, the electric and magnetic waves are at 90 degrees to each other, so that maximum magnetic field point coincides with minimum electrical field intensity. Think of the current and the voltage relationships, magnetic flux is directly proportional to the current flow alone. Look at the zero crossing of the E field, and note that maximum current happens at minimum "pressure", does this seem at all odd? If so, your close to the heart of the matter. Maximum flow at minimum pressure? Is this how we teach the "voltage is pressure" model, because it's got a real problem at the zero crossing of the E field. Yet this is still how we teach our engineers and technicians. It's laughable. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 08:28:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA08698 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:24:47 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA08532; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:24:08 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA22116; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:21:39 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:21:38 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com cc: vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: EM waves In-Reply-To: <199512010155.RAA13286@ix8.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in > phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this > case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? > Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently > become longitudnal scalar transmission? This has always bugged me too. In mecanical waves, the potential energy and kinetic energy are out of phase, and the energy flux is continuous, not chopped up into half-wave segments. Why does EM not act the same? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 23:54:13 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA10603 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:30:22 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA10249 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:29:20 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA22763; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:29:18 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:29:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. In-Reply-To: <4F06+uOTjkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > Several people agreed that a good laywer would need to be contacted on the > release of information and intellectual property rights. Quite some time > ago, I did pose this question, and after detailing the nature of the > material and it's applications, I was advised that it would be "quite > unwise" to release the material. I agree that it would be unwise to put the whole document on WWW. But there MUST be some legal provision for publishing parts of copyrighted works. Otherwise the very mention of the title of a work would lose you the rights to the title. So there must be a dividing line which, when crossed, constitutes release to public domain. How about this: put a project article on WWW AS AN ADVERTIZEMENT FOR THE COMPLETE PRODUCT. I constantly see "sample" segments of books as part of ads, so it cannot be that these segments become public domain. Maybe you need a lawyer who UNDERSTANDS internet publication. One with no experience would, instead of admitting ignorance and recommending someone else, would tend to advise extreme caution when it might not be needed. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 01:28:02 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA22886 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:23:46 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA22760 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:23:28 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA04355; Fri, 1 Dec 95 13:12:43 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 1 Dec 95 13:23:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 12:43:50 EST Message-Id: <4F06+KvnjkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: patents and copyrights, the hard cold facts. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Thanks to everyone who responded so far. I think I should pass along a bit of advice I payed good money for. A patent is usless unless you are activly envolved in commercial production and distribution of the material covered by the patent. You cannot patent something and wait for someone to come along and voilate your patent and claim damages. This is known as enforcement. Unless you are envolved in a commercial activity with the patented material, you have no protection. Violation of the patent has caused you no damages, so you cannot claim any. Use it or loose it. If you think you may wait for someone to come along and sue them for infringement of a patent you have sitting on a shelve, you've got a suprise comming. You will loose in court, and have to pay the legal fees for the violators to boot. Now a copyright will only protect you from someone using your printed material, not the idea itself as such. It MAY help prove your ownership of the intellectual property, but you must then prove that the other party did not originate the idea independantly. This is not easy to do, you would have to make them admit "yes, I read such and such, and then acted on that material". Quite unlikley to happen, as their lawyers will tell them that the burden of proof is on you, and not them. They are presumed to be innocent of any wrongdoing untill you prove otherwise. Even if you suceeded in this, your still not home free, you would be asked "why did you not secure a patent?" to which you would truthfully answer "Because I was not envolved in any enforcement action at the time to validate any such patent", and by saying this, you have just stated your dammages are zero. Again, you loose. So the copyright only protects teh work, not the ideas within, another can always make a minor modification and file a patent application, and freely enguage in commercial enforcment of that patent. Once again, your out in the cold without so much as a thankyou for your work, There is an option however, it's called a trade secret. To implement this, you just keep your mouth shut, and your ideas stay a bit safer than patented material is. There is a "hacker ethic" which states that information should be free, and freely shared. This is notion does not account for the idea that a person who invents something deserves to benifit from his work. Defenders of this idea state that if you are the originator of the idea that thoses who wish to apply that idea commercially will envolve you fairly in that commercial venture. Sadly, this is quite nieve, as this just does not happen in the real world. To have people come to you for comercial applications demands that you hold trade secrets. Only then do you retain the value of the work, but no one knows you have it, so they dont come to you. Err, it looks like we are loosing once again. So, we have only one recourse here, to keep trade secrets, and use your personal technology for "self improvment". You might share it with trusted associates, as only by this will others benifit from your work. Unfortunately, ideas do not do well in isolation, but thrive in the company of others. This sad state of affiars has keep important technology "underground" for far too long. We must find a new way to move beyond this self impossed exile if new technologies are going to get to those who truely need them. As peresons interested in new sciences, we need to cooperate in new ways to move past this situation which forces us to keep our cards close to the vest, for the good of all. Anyone willing to start a new paradigm here? Is'nt that why we are interested in these subjects in the first place? The time for action is now. We need new ideas that acknowlage the rights of an inventor to benifit from their work, as an incentive to produce new and better works, yet we need to protect that same intellectual propety. Patents dont quite do the job, copyrights also fall short. The hacker ethic is a nice ideal, but it just does not work in todays reality. Lets form another option. I've already given away one design freely. I'd like to share others as well. What can we all do together to change the current situation and promote better exchange of new ideas and technology? Maybe some form of "affidavit" or "contract" could be formed that allows sharing of ideas without the loss of intellectual property rights. The legal costs fo construct such a instrument would be astronomical, and it might not work anyway. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 10:41:01 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA29837 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:40:26 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA29611 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:39:56 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA04650; Fri, 1 Dec 95 13:29:18 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 1 Dec 95 13:39:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 13:24:40 EST Message-Id: <4F06+cVojkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: EM waves. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There apears to be some confusion over the relationship of electric and magnetic fields in an electromagnetic wave. We need to clear this up so as to not spread more confusion. Another poster added: "This has always bugged me too. In mecanical waves, the potential energy and kinetic energy are out of phase, and the energy flux is continuous, not chopped up into half-wave segments. Why does EM not act the same?" They are the same, thigns get different in sum-zero situations where we apparently see the energy disappear by destructive interferance. After rechecking, I find that indeed the electric and magnetic fields are not in phase, but 90 degrees our of phase to each other. Maximum electric intensity with minimum magnetic intensity, and maximum magnetic intensity with minimum electric intensity. The "energy" of the wave oscillates between the electric and magnetic fields, and at no time are both of these zero at the same time as some have thought. Again, it's off that maximum "flow" (current) happends under minimum "pressure" (voltage). Does anyone else see the apparent contridictions here? This is resolved by thinking of the electromagnetic wave as a pair of scalar functions as pointed out by Whittaker papers. T.E. Bearden was right in this respect. EM is only a special case of scalar theory. In the message on this subject below, I mistyped Richard Walls name, it's not Hall. Sorry about that. ------------- Original Text From "Robert A. Shannon" , on 12/1/95 9:21 AM: To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Richard Wayne Hall wrote: "In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently become longitudnal scalar transmission?" Actually, in an electromagnetic wave, the electric and magnetic waves are at 90 degrees to each other, so that maximum magnetic field point coincides with minimum electrical field intensity. Think of the current and the voltage relationships, magnetic flux is directly proportional to the current flow alone. Look at the zero crossing of the E field, and note that maximum current happens at minimum "pressure", does this seem at all odd? If so, your close to the heart of the matter. Maximum flow at minimum pressure? Is this how we teach the "voltage is pressure" model, because it's got a real problem at the zero crossing of the E field. Yet this is still how we teach our engineers and technicians. It's laughable. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 01:06:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA05525 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:54:29 -0800 Received: from l2.conline.com (root@l2.conline.com [204.96.7.69]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA05339 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:54:02 -0800 Received: from server.IADFW.NET (dal1-28.conline.com [204.96.7.124]) by l2.conline.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18777 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:54:45 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:54:45 -0600 Message-Id: <199512011854.MAA18777@l2.conline.com> X-Sender: fearl@l2.conline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Svartalf Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:23 PM 30.11.95 EST, you wrote: >Electronic publishing being a grey area, I am forced to either release >nothing, or assume that anything I do release is no longer my (or our) >intellectual property. Ther are still designs which are my sole >intellectual property that I could choose to forfit, but apparently I could >no longer put thoses into a copyrighted work, as they were already in the >public domain. That depends on the nature of the post in question. You can claim individual copyrights for each item (section?) of the book that you publish electronically or otherwise. (By the way, you can copyright _anything_ published by claiming "Copyright 19xx, All Rights Reserved" somewhere in the article in question. It's not registered at that point in time- so it'd be harder to defend yourself, but if you proceed to register it and mail a hardcopy of the article to yourself, you can make your life easier if the need to defend yourself arises.) This applies to printed, audio, video, or any other electronic media. >Catch 22. Give it out now, and drop it from the manuscript. Each device >builds on the earlier devices, so ths would destroy the flow of the work >totaly. Unacceptable! Look into what I just suggested. It's the loophole in the system I think you're loking for. And it'll fit the bill- it allows you to publish portions right away for the works you WANT to release and it allows you to protect the whole thing when it's done. >I'll have to give this some detailed though, and consult with others on >this end before I make any choice on the matter. I'm interested in what you have as a final opus. But, I would like to get a few teasers right now! ;-> >A patent itself offers no useful protection, as I am not envolved in >commercial applications of the devices in question, and could not afford >enforcment of the patents anyway if I were. A copyright would do a bit >better in this situation, that was the most helpful suggestion I could buy >on this subject. Indeed. >I'm being oppressed by archaic rules, and made into the suppressor of the >technology, or forfit my the intellectual property rights to the work.! >No acceptable option presents itself that I can see. There must be some >alternitive available. There is and it's in the archaic system you're supposedly running into a wall on. (Leave it to a software hack to think up of a solution! ;-> >Partial release of copyrighted material can destroy the copyright >protection, as it becomes your responsbility to prove that any boundries >between what was and was not released were known to the other party, and >this is expensive. I'd loose this in court, so there would be no >protection what so ever. Only if you don't copyright the partial release. Copyright each portion as you publish it. This should protect the whole as you finish it up. >I'd probably do better to keep the material circulating "underground". > >Any other options? Look into what I just suggested- I think it'll really fit the bill. Frank C. Earl Earl Consulting Services From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 23:23:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06838 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:57:52 -0800 Received: from l2.conline.com (root@l2.conline.com [204.96.7.69]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA06789 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:57:43 -0800 Received: from server.IADFW.NET (dal1-28.conline.com [204.96.7.124]) by l2.conline.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18964 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:58:27 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:58:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199512011858.MAA18964@l2.conline.com> X-Sender: fearl@l2.conline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Svartalf Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:23 PM 30.11.95 EST, you wrote: >Partial release of copyrighted material can destroy the copyright >protection, as it becomes your responsbility to prove that any boundries >between what was and was not released were known to the other party, and >this is expensive. I'd loose this in court, so there would be no >protection what so ever. By the by, not to sound paranoid but, you have little protection anyway. Often times, it's not a matter of who violated who- but who has the best lawyers. There is little protection of intellectual rights in this day and age for those with enough personal power to take them from you. Frank Earl Earl Consulting Services- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 00:10:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA11857 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:14:31 -0800 Received: from l2.conline.com (root@l2.conline.com [204.96.7.69]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA11722 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:14:11 -0800 Received: from server.IADFW.NET (dal1-27.conline.com [204.96.7.123]) by l2.conline.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA19468 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:14:45 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:14:45 -0600 Message-Id: <199512011914.NAA19468@l2.conline.com> X-Sender: fearl@l2.conline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Svartalf Subject: Re: fnrg: More construction projects? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:59 PM 30.11.95 -0800, you wrote: >I am from Canada, nor am I a Lawyer, and am unsure of American Law, but it >seems to me that you could e-publish your plans that are coded with an >encryption key, along with a text file explaining that this file is: >for independent verification purposes only, >that a confidentiality agreement is automatically in force once the file is >decrypted, >and that unauthorized distribution is not permissible, >and that a payment of $10,000 is agreed to for any breach of this contract. >Any resulting patent, copyright or commercialization rights belong to so and >so.. >That this agreement is under the laws of the state of ..., and that if >any clause is declared invalid the remainder of the clauses and the spirit >of the invalid clause be maintained with full force. > >and that the decryption key is something of the effect that > >"I acknowledge, without reservation or recourse, that the information >contained within the file scalarblueprint.txt, dated 95/11/29 12:00 is the >intellectual property of so and so, and my use of said information is >limited under an lectronically executed confidentiality agreement, such that >I waive all rights and claims said device or information." which has to be >executed from the DOS prompt. > >If this approach seems promising to both your objective of having the material >reviewed, retaining proprietary status yet allowing a select few have >limited access to the material, I will volunteer to help with the wording of >the protection files and system, and will check out the concept with the Law >librarian at UBC. This suggestion does have merit- in fact this is the way a LOT of buisnesses operate in this day and age (I distinctly remember signing was it a 1 or 2 page fine print document to test MS's Win95 as a Developer Beta a few years back.). It'll fly in the US as of the current rulings regarding such. In fact this has even MORE teeth in it than any normal NDA does. In order to USE the contents of the encrypted file, you NEED to read the NDA and "agree" to it. I LIKE this! ;-> Frank Earl Earl Consulting Services- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 23:34:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA01684 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:09:51 -0800 Received: from l2.conline.com (root@l2.conline.com [204.96.7.69]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA01318 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:08:29 -0800 Received: from server.IADFW.NET (dal2-2.conline.com [204.96.7.87]) by l2.conline.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA21283 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:08:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:08:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199512012008.OAA21283@l2.conline.com> X-Sender: fearl@l2.conline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Svartalf Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: EM waves. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:24 PM 01.12.95 EST, you wrote: >Does anyone else see the apparent contridictions here? This is resolved by >thinking of the electromagnetic wave as a pair of scalar functions as >pointed out by Whittaker papers. T.E. Bearden was right in this respect. >EM is only a special case of scalar theory. I keep seeing references to Whittaker's works in all of the Scalar/Free Energy works. Unfortunately, I have run into a stone wall as to obtaining a copy (Of some form or another.) Anybody out there that can help connect me to these works? I'm slowly accumulating a body of the work for myself and several of my like-minded friends in the Dallas area. Any help in this would be _greatly_ appreciated. Frank Earl Earl Consulting Services- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 23:23:14 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA11378 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:55:53 -0800 Received: from picard.msoe.edu (picard.msoe.edu [155.92.10.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA11264 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:55:35 -0800 Received: from warp.msoe.edu ([155.92.15.1]) by obrien.msoe.edu (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Fri, 01 Dec 1995 15:55:17 EST Received: from WARP/MAILQUEUE by warp.msoe.edu (Mercury 1.21); 1 Dec 95 15:54:57 GMT+6 Received: from MAILQUEUE by WARP (Mercury 1.21); 1 Dec 95 15:54:42 GMT+6 From: "Bane" Organization: Milwaukee School of Engineering To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:54:33 CST6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: fnrg: Tesla Toys.... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-ID: <607B4A7540@warp.msoe.edu> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hey dose anyone have some simple to follow and _SAFE_ (sane) directions on making a tesla coil... ian ian gieser . /_\ ...still leagle in one state....insanity... From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 14:58:13 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA13783 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:55:13 -0800 Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13640 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:54:49 -0800 Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tLeKZ-001VyxC; Fri, 1 Dec 95 16:53 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: Re: EM Waves To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:53:23 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <4F06+cVojkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> from "Robert A. Shannon" at Dec 1, 95 01:24:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 502 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Robert Shannon writes: > After rechecking, I find that indeed the electric and magnetic fields are > not in phase, but 90 degrees our of phase to each other. Maximum electric > intensity with minimum magnetic intensity, and maximum magnetic intensity > with minimum electric intensity. Maybe this should be checked again. My understanding is that in a transverse EM wave the electric and magnetic fields are orthogonal, 90 degrees apart in space, but in time they are in-phase. Robert Stirniman From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 19:21:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA24619 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:19:44 -0800 Received: from ix12.ix.netcom.com (ix12.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA24590 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:19:39 -0800 Received: from by ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA18088; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:19:52 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:19:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199512020319.TAA18088@ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: fnrg: Re: More Construction Projects To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >In message <199511302216.QAA21192@fastlane.net>, Bert Pool writes: >>If this stuff works, and is useable, I doubt if the powers-that-be would >>allow a public patent to be issued anyway. If you doubt that statement, > >Very true. > >Here is something people on this list should keep in mind: Patent >Secrey Law. Basically, if you apply for a patent, and the details of >the invention are not publically known, they can prevent it from ever >being published! Read the statues and/or consult a lawyer. > >See 35 USC Chapter 17 (35 USC 181-188) > >It's on the web at: > >http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/35/ch17.html > >Be careful. > > 12/1/95 Yes, it's true. However, I believe the U.S. has patent reciprocity laws with Canada and Mexico. A way around this is to concurrently file patents in these contries. There is little the U.S. can do to impose secrecy and supress your patent granted in a foreign country that reciprocates with U.S. patent law. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 19:52:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA05807 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:52:23 -0800 Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com (ix11.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA05784 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:52:18 -0800 Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA12817; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:49:40 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 19:49:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199512020349.TAA12817@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: More Construction Projects To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >You wrote: >> >>In message <199511302216.QAA21192@fastlane.net>, Bert Pool writes: >>>If this stuff works, and is useable, I doubt if the powers-that-be >would >>>allow a public patent to be issued anyway. If you doubt that >statement, >> >>Very true. >> >>Here is something people on this list should keep in mind: Patent >>Secrey Law. Basically, if you apply for a patent, and the details of >>the invention are not publically known, they can prevent it from ever >>being published! Read the statues and/or consult a lawyer. >> >>See 35 USC Chapter 17 (35 USC 181-188) >> >>It's on the web at: >> >>http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/35/ch17.html >> >>Be careful. >> >> > >12/1/95 > >Yes, it's true. However, I believe the U.S. has patent reciprocity >laws with Canada and Mexico. A way around this is to concurrently file >patents in these contries. There is little the U.S. can do to impose >secrecy and supress your patent granted in a foreign country that >reciprocates with U.S. patent law. > >RWW > 12/1/95 Also, be aware that granting a patent only confers an offensive right to the holder of the patent. If you believe there is patent infringment and you notify the PTO to enforce your patent you will be greeted with stoney indifference. It's up to you to affirmatively defend your patent. How's this done? You pay big $$$ to guess who (the lawyers are the only winners here) to file a Federal law suit. Can you imagine suing IBM or GE. In these conflicts David rarely prevails over Goliath. RWW RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 01:07:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA19174 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 01:06:58 -0800 Received: from JIMI.CS.UNLV.EDU (jimi.CS.UNLV.EDU [131.216.22.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA19081 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 01:06:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199512020906.BAA19081@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from lil-ed.CS.UNLV.EDU by JIMI.CS.UNLV.EDU id aa07194; 2 Dec 95 1:02 PST To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Whittaker papers on WWW! In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Dec 1995 14:08:47 CST." <199512012008.OAA21283@l2.conline.com> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 01:02:55 -0800 From: Frank T Lofaro Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In message <199512012008.OAA21283@l2.conline.com>, Svartalf writes: >I keep seeing references to Whittaker's works in all of the Scalar/Free >Energy works. Unfortunately, I have run into a stone wall as to obtaining a >copy (Of some form or another.) Anybody out there that can help connect me >to these works? I'm slowly accumulating a body of the work for myself and >several of my like-minded friends in the Dallas area. Any help in this >would be _greatly_ appreciated. >Frank Earl >Earl Consulting Services- > You can get a copy off the World Wide Web from my home page at: http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/ And follow the links for Strange and Unknown, then Alternative Science. Or use these URLs for the files themselves (if these don't work, just follow the links above) http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1903.troff.eqn.gz http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1904.troff.eqn.gz I've got other interesting stuff on my homepage. I hack it a lot (WWW stuff, etc), so if it breaks temporarily, just try again a bit later. To format these into text do something like the following: zcat 1903.troff.eqn.gz | geqn -Tascii | groff -Tascii > 1903.txt Or for postscript: zcat 1903.troff.eqn.gz | geqn -Tps | groff -Tps > 1903.ps (same for the 1904 file). I find these files quite hard to understand, but I hope they help someone. Anyone have any clarification? I got them from http://hoffman.rstnu.bcm.tmc.edu/~wje/free_energy/ (the actual documents are on a FTP server only to be used during off-peak times). I didn't mirror the postscript version they had, since they were broken for me when I tried them. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 02:22:21 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA02769 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 02:20:35 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA02746 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 02:20:30 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-9.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-9.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.9]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA25809 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:18:07 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512021018.VAA25809@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:21:07 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30 Nov 95 at 13:23, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > Several people agreed that a good laywer would need to be contacted on the > release of information and intellectual property rights. Quite some time > ago, I did pose this question, and after detailing the nature of the > material and it's applications, I was advised that it would be "quite > unwise" to release the material. > > Electronic publishing being a grey area, I am forced to either release > nothing, or assume that anything I do release is no longer my (or our) > intellectual property. Ther are still designs which are my sole > intellectual property that I could choose to forfit, but apparently I could > no longer put thoses into a copyrighted work, as they were already in the > public domain. > > Catch 22. Give it out now, and drop it from the manuscript. Each device > builds on the earlier devices, so ths would destroy the flow of the work > totaly. Unacceptable! > > I'll have to give this some detailed though, and consult with others on > this end before I make any choice on the matter. > > A patent itself offers no useful protection, as I am not envolved in > commercial applications of the devices in question, and could not afford > enforcment of the patents anyway if I were. A copyright would do a bit > better in this situation, that was the most helpful suggestion I could buy > on this subject. > > I'm being oppressed by archaic rules, and made into the suppressor of the > technology, or forfit my the intellectual property rights to the work.! > No acceptable option presents itself that I can see. There must be some > alternitive available. > > Partial release of copyrighted material can destroy the copyright > protection, as it becomes your responsbility to prove that any boundries > between what was and was not released were known to the other party, and > this is expensive. I'd loose this in court, so there would be no > protection what so ever. > > I'd probably do better to keep the material circulating "underground". > > Any other options? > > Robert, To the best of my knowledge, copyright is obtained simply by putting the phrase "copyright " and the date, at the top of any document published (provided of course that the document in question is not plagiarized by you :). However I would have thought that you would have been more interested in patent protection. As I understand it, copyright would protect the written document, but not prevent anyone from manufacturing and selling the devices (just from selling published copies of the document). Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 02:22:25 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA02763 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 02:20:33 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA02745 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 02:20:29 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-9.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-9.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.9]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA25818 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:18:14 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512021018.VAA25818@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:21:07 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: EM waves Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On 30 Nov 95 at 17:55, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > 11/30/95 > > In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in > phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this > case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? > Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently > become longitudnal scalar transmission? > > RWW > > On his web page at : http://www.best.com/~lockyer Thomas Lockyer offers an explanation to this question, thus I must confess to not properly understanding it. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 02:22:21 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA02744 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 02:20:28 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA02731 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 02:20:24 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-9.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-9.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.9]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA25814 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:18:11 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512021018.VAA25814@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:21:07 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Hello Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30 Nov 95 at 17:26, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] > soldered, in experimenter's small quantities or rolls. In the alternative, has > anyone had any success soldering to or conductively gluing wire leads to > aluminum foil in a nice non-lossy connection? This may turn out to be "lossy" rather than "non-lossy", and I haven't tried it, but how about using a paper-clip for the connection to the aluminum foil? A wire can be soldered onto the paper-clip first. > > I'm looking forward to participating here. My usual hangout is Compuserve in > the Encounters forum. > > Thanks and aloha, > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > 76216.2421@compuserve.com > > Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 07:18:57 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA17303 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:18:49 -0800 Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA17292 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:18:45 -0800 Received: from fw56.fastlane.net (fw56.fastlane.net [204.251.17.156]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA25316 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:15:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199512021615.KAA25316@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 09:18:07 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bob Shannon wrote: >Maybe you need a lawyer who UNDERSTANDS internet publication. One with >no experience would, instead of admitting ignorance and recommending >someone else, would tend to advise extreme caution when it might not be >needed. >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > There is an incredible amount of argument on Internet copyright law right now. Journalists with the New York Times and other similar newpaper and magazine publications are turning to the Internet as an alternative to the "old guard" methods of being published. These "big boys" in the publication business have in turn started requiring freelance journalists to sign over ALL their rights to any written material that the journalist has written for the major company, to the big company in "perpetuity", i.e., forever-and-ever. Some see this as a first step for these big companies to accumulate or archive large amounts of written material that they may later want to database or compile into books, etc. to be made available, for a fee of course, on Internet. The original writers get nothing for this additional use of their works. Other contraversy covers exactly what R. Shannon is agonizing over here; he has something that he wants to share with some of us, but is afraid (and rightly so, I believe), in putting out on the net parts of his work and risking losing whatever rights he may have to the authorship of that material. There _are_ no copyright experts on Internet copyright law at the moment. Lots of people are going to have to end up in court forcing judges to make specific rulings on all of this stuff. Then the rules will have been defined, and attourneys can then strut about proclaiming they are "experts" in this area. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 06:45:14 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA12254 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:43:53 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA12243 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:43:47 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA20827 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:34:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id IAA04084; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:43:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:43:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512021443.IAA04084@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: EM waves. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I keep seeing references to Whittaker's works in all of the Scalar/Free >Energy works. Unfortunately, I have run into a stone wall as to obtaining a >copy (Of some form or another.) Anybody out there that can help connect me >to these works? I'm slowly accumulating a body of the work for myself and >several of my like-minded friends in the Dallas area. Any help in this >would be _greatly_ appreciated. > >Frank Earl >Earl Consulting Services- I have wanted to read these too, but haven't gone looking. I will do so soon here at the University of Illinois library (one of the largest in the world) and let you all know if I come up with them. Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 07:55:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA22584 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:55:06 -0800 Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA22569 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:55:01 -0800 Received: from fw56.fastlane.net (fw56.fastlane.net [204.251.17.156]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA27155 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:52:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199512021652.KAA27155@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 09:54:23 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: Re: fnrg: Tesla Toys.... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >hey dose anyone have some simple to follow and _SAFE_ (sane) >directions on making a tesla coil... > >ian > >ian gieser > . >/_\ > >...still leagle in one state....insanity... > If you want a standard Tesla coil with about 150,000 volt output, see the July, 1965 issue of Popular Electronics. If you have a lot of experience with building electronic projects, you might want to build the SOLID STATE Tesla coil shown in September 1991 Radio Electronics. But be aware that the ferrite cores used in this project can be hard to obtain, and might have to be substituted. Richard Hull with the Tesla Coil Builders of Richmond VA has somewhere around 40+ 2 hour videos documenting their Tesla coil building projects, including the Nemesis Coil, which put out 13 to 14 foot long sparks. TCBOR, 7103 Hermitage Rd. Richmond, VA 23228. Tesla Coil Builders Association, 3 Amy Lane, Queensbury NY 12804, has a newletter with interesting Tesla related stuff, back issues worth having. International Tesla Society, PO Box 5636 Colorado Springs CO 80931 has interesting magazine, and hosts a big Tesla Symposium every couple of years. The have a good book store with Tesla related info available, but the organization is not geared to helping individual builders. I found that there are a LOT of tesla coil builders scattered around the country, and some are likely near you. I suggest you seek them out; knowing a good coil builder gives you access to an invaluable source of skill, information and hard-to-find parts! Good luck, and keep one hand behind you. bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 10:50:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA29149 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:50:01 -0800 Received: from odo.msoe.edu (root@odo.msoe.edu [155.92.10.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA29132 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:49:54 -0800 Received: by odo.msoe.edu; id AA07993; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:49:47 -0600 Received: from WARP/MAILQUEUE by warp.msoe.edu (Mercury 1.21); 2 Dec 95 12:49:47 GMT+6 Received: from MAILQUEUE by WARP (Mercury 1.21); 2 Dec 95 12:49:39 GMT+6 From: "Bane" Organization: Milwaukee School of Engineering To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:49:29 CST6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: fnrg: Hello Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-Id: <111A796B69@warp.msoe.edu> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On 30 Nov 95 at 17:26, Rick Monteverde wrote: >[snip] >> soldered, in experimenter's small quantities or rolls. In the >> alternative, has anyone had any success soldering to or >> conductively gluing wire leads to aluminum foil in a nice >> non-lossy connection? > >This may turn out to be "lossy" rather than "non-lossy", and I >haven't tried it, but how about using a paper-clip for the >connection to the aluminum foil? A wire can be soldered onto the >paper-clip first. i have gotten this tacktic to work in limited success. i found that if you used some sand paper or steel wool and scoured it lightly so as to remove any outer residue the results do improve. -ian geiser ian gieser . /_\ ...still leagle in one state....insanity... From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 14:13:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA20804 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:13:42 -0800 Received: from hugin.oden.se (root@hugin.oden.se [193.45.240.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA20772 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 14:13:36 -0800 Received: from dialup7-hugin.oden.se by hugin.oden.se with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0tM096-000BBfC; Sat, 2 Dec 95 23:11 MET Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 23:11 MET X-Sender: connyo@hugin.oden.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: connyo@oden.se (Conny Ohstrom) Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: While seeing that the whole internet is turning into a free market of ideas, programs and other information, I see that the patents are still where they have been for centries. In the hands of the bureacry. Why not take the step into shareware with schematics and drawings? Much cheaper than trying to patent it, and impossibile to stop "due to government issues". And if it is good, then the share- ware sheme would curtenly give more money than if a multibilion- company buying up the patent just to put in the drawer. And when the information is free, then there could start a multi-threaded further development, so that it could be even better! From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 15:18:57 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04815 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:16:24 -0800 Received: from ix8.ix.netcom.com (ix8.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA04805 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:16:21 -0800 Received: from by ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id PAA26823; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:15:00 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:15:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199512022315.PAA26823@ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: fnrg: I'm back from VR World To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Everybody; I am now back from VR World. The show was somewhat of a success. We got the OK to continue work on our Virtual Reality project. We got an extension on our loans of the DEC XL5120 (32 MB RAM, Pentium 120, Matrox Impression Plus Video Board) and the Intergraph TD-4 (64 MB RAM, dual Pentium 90's, 24 MB VRAM on the GLZ Video Board). We got an evaluation copy of Sense8's World Up; finally, OpenGl hardware acceleration! I find that my mail has kind of backed up (75+ messages). I will answer messages as soon as possible; please bear with me. Dennis From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 15:30:40 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA08500 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:30:39 -0800 Received: from fun.direct.ca (root@fun.direct.ca [199.60.229.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA08485 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:30:36 -0800 Received: from Klaus (van-as-05c02.direct.ca [204.174.249.34]) by fun.direct.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA08933 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:24:46 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:24:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199512022324.PAA08933@fun.direct.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: fun.direct.ca: Host van-as-05c02.direct.ca claimed to be Klaus X-Sender: kbreslau@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Klaus Breslauer Subject: fnrg: Re: (Protection for) More construction projects? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:14 PM 12/1/95 -0600, you wrote: >At 08:59 PM 30.11.95 -0800, you wrote: >>I am from Canada, nor am I a Lawyer, and am unsure of American Law, but it >>seems to me that you could e-publish your plans that are coded with an >>encryption key, along with a text file explaining that this file is: >>for independent verification purposes only, >>that a confidentiality agreement is automatically in force once the file is >>decrypted, >>and that unauthorized distribution is not permissible, >>and that a payment of $10,000 is agreed to for any breach of this contract. >>Any resulting patent, copyright or commercialization rights belong to so and >>so.. >>That this agreement is under the laws of the state of ..., and that if >>any clause is declared invalid the remainder of the clauses and the spirit >>of the invalid clause be maintained with full force. >> >>and that the decryption key is something of the effect that >> >>"I acknowledge, without reservation or recourse, that the information >>contained within the file scalarblueprint.txt, dated 95/11/29 12:00 is the >>intellectual property of so and so, and my use of said information is >>limited under an lectronically executed confidentiality agreement, such that >>I waive all rights and claims said device or information." which has to be >>executed from the DOS prompt. >> >>If this approach seems promising to both your objective of having the material >>reviewed, retaining proprietary status yet allowing a select few have >>limited access to the material, I will volunteer to help with the wording of >>the protection files and system, and will check out the concept with the Law >>librarian at UBC. > >This suggestion does have merit- in fact this is the way a LOT of buisnesses >operate in this day and age (I distinctly remember signing was it a 1 or 2 >page fine print document to test MS's Win95 as a Developer Beta a few years >back.). >It'll fly in the US as of the current rulings regarding such. > >In fact this has even MORE teeth in it than any normal NDA does. In order >to USE the contents of the encrypted file, you NEED to read the NDA and >"agree" to it. I LIKE this! ;-> > >Frank Earl >Earl Consulting Services- > I have already used this method in Canada, in dealings with the Government of British Columbia, Ministry of Forests. They have contracted me to determine various methodologies, but not a specific instance of such. So when I ship them a report, the information is public domain, but when I ship them a program that UTILIZES the information, it is PKZIP encrypted with a keyword like "The information is the property of Breslauer Industrial Design, and with decryption you explicitly agree to the terms of the contract, as stated in ABCD.txt" Not that the government officials are keen on this, but they don't have a choice. I encrypt for my protection of commercialization potential. The Ministry has access to the results, the methodology to the get the results, but not the specific program that gets the results. I do not want or hope to be the first to have to test it in court, but the people I deal with appreciate that what I present them with is consistent and based on several strongly supported legal documents brought together in a new way. As for going through lawyers, yes, very important yes, spend more money on lawyers, yes, protect your ass, yes, bankrupt yourself making the lawyers expert on electronic publishing wealthy, yes go on ahead. A lawyer, asked for advice if this project requires more legal protection, will never answer, "Further legal protection on this matter is a poor investment, considering the global nature of intellectual piracy, and that with the scant resources you have available, maybe your best protection would like in superior production, or pricing advantages or technological leadership." I would say that in our western justice system, justice is just another purchaseable commodity, jsut Ask OJ. As you can tell, I do not believe the legal profession is generally acting on the best interests of society at large. As a rule, I have found most of them to be parasites, the law librarian I know is an exception, an ideal lawyer. He is a communist who does not believe in money. Whether or not you agree with his politics, this person is for the little guy against large corporations. Klaus Breslauer Breslauer Industrial Design From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 15:31:12 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA08670 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:31:10 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA08653 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:31:08 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id SAA18988 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:31:01 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512022331.SAA18988@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: fnrg: huh? To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com (Wierd) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:31:00 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm so sory, but if any body can update me on what we have been talking about, it would be great. My server blanked out on this list for about 1 week. Thanks, Andrew -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 15:32:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA09103 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:32:52 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA09096 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:32:49 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id SAA19031 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:32:44 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512022332.SAA19031@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: fnrg: static To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com (Wierd) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:32:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, I made the simple and cheep static detecter. Now would anybody tell me any good ideas to do with it. Also dose anybody know how to get around the 'memery' effect? Andrew -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 18:39:44 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA26462 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:39:27 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26429 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:39:22 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id SAA24580; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:39:16 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:39:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Skunk Works Digest V5 #526 (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:12:31 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Choate To: Experimental Instrumentation Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #526 (fwd) Forwarded message: From=20gaia.ucs.orst.edu!skunk-works-digest Wed Nov 29 05:12 EST 1995 remot= e from attatl Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:06:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199511290806.AAA21654@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> From: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #526 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Sender: skunk-works-digest-owner@gaia.ucs.orst.edu Precedence: bulk = =20 Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 29 November 1995 Volume 05 : Number 5= 26 In this issue: Mac(h)rihanish Swedish pulse detonation wave engines Re: Swedish pulse detonation wave engines Hypersonic speed evades shooting down ! Re: Hypersonic speed -MOSTLY- evades shooting down ! See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - - - - - - - - -----------------------------------------------------------= ----------- From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:29:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mac(h)rihanish I am not sure how and where those "F-117As and SR-71As at Machrihanish"=20 rumors originate from, but I wonder how a "Mach 3+ radar trace near Scotlan= d"=20 can be any indication for the deployment of the aircraft at this air field.= =20 Did the aircraft start from Machrihanish and then accelerate to Mach 3+, or= =20 was it just in that vincinity that a radar blip was sighted flying by, or h= ow=20 else was the connection made? Having only second and third-hand information does not help, either. Here are some excerpts from an article by Paul Jackson, titled "Shedding so= me=20 light on the Aurora", which was printed in the "United States Air Force=20 Yearbook 1993", published by the RAF Benevolent Fund Enterprises Publishing= =20 Unit in 1993. Talking about F-117s at Machrihanish (spelled Macrihanish throughout the=20 article): "As well as the shape and designation of the aircraft, there were false lea= ds=20 concerning its haunts: it was either lurking at remote or seldom-visited=20 bases such as Macrihanish and Wethersfield or taunting aircraft enthusiasts= =20 by operating under their very noses from Mildenhall and Alconbury. Now, a= =20 decent interval after these stories emerged, and with the F-117 acknowledge= d=20 by the authorities and even appearing at air shows, there is not one shred = of=20 evidence to corroborate them." And later talking about Aurora at Machrihanish: "Observers began to speculate that the Aurora's test programme involved rou= nd- the-World flights, departing California, refuelling near Tahiti, landing at= =20 Macrihanish and later completing the sortie with a return to Lockheed's=20 Palmdale base. The last-mentioned is a curious choice as it is a far from= =20 secure airfield with regard to the public's view over the fence. The=20 Macrihanish connection appears to stem from a report of a Mach 3 aircraft= =20 leaving the base in November 1991 and being tracked by radar. A witness nea= r=20 the base heard 'an extremely loud jet noise' at about the same time.=20 Much nonsense has been written about 'remote RAF Macrihanish'. Whilst the= =20 base seldom is visited by aircraft enthusiasts, it has a regular air servic= e=20 from Glasgow; is frequented by RAF and NATO visitors; is bounded on two sid= es=20 by public roads and on a third by the sea; and the end of its runway points= =20 straight at, and is just two miles from the town of Campbeltown. Given that= =20 the Aurora can shake houses 16 miles from Edwards AFB, its effect on the=20 hapless citizens of Campbeltown should extend to the awakening of those six= =20 feet below the kirk. Instead, one man heard a noise. There seems to be litt= le=20 point in hiding the Aurora in the middle of the Nevada desert if it then=20 flies over the town square of the largest settlement (population 5,900) in= =20 the Western Isles at 500ft on long finals to Macrihanish." Sometimes a rumor is just a rumor. :) - - - - - - - - - -- Andreas - - - - - - - - - --- = =20 - - - - - - - - --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 =20 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars= / - - - - - - - - - --- = =20 - - - - - - - - --- - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Urban_Fredriksson@icl.se (Urban Fredriksson) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 18:30:44 MET Subject: Swedish pulse detonation wave engines FOA, the Swedish defence research establishemen, is developing pulse detonation wave (PDW) engines. Unlike older pulse jet engines, it doesn't have any moving parts. Studies has been underway since 1993, the first test rig was run in the spring of 1994 and was publicly shown during a conference in the USA (the first PDW engine publicly shown). Several types of fuels are to be tested: Acetylene, hydrogen, ethane and others. One goal is to be able to use a laser to initiate the detonation, so it can start without any previous combustion sequence. A laser can be focused very precisely, which is good not only to avoid combustion, but also to start the detonation sequence in different places, and thus use the different forces to guide the vehicle. One of the first possible applications is in missiles, as the PDW engine is very compact and gives good thrust levels. Other applications are UAVs and cheap expendable decoys. A PDW engine may cost only 20% of what a jet engine with the same thrust costs. FOA is mainly concerned with operating frequencies of 25-200 Hz, which is enough for anything from zero speed to Mach 3-4. About 700 Hz would enable speeds of up to Mach 15-20. The pressure is not very high, 20 - 30 bar, but the detonation wave is fast, 2500 m/s. It is possible not only to use internal thrust chambers, where the detonation wave is started from the rear of the chamber by the ignition circuit, but also external detonation waves, as the air/fuel mixture wouldn't spread out sideways due to the slipstream effect. This is where a laser comes in handy, as it can start the detonation to the rear of the engine in a predetermined spot. The PDW can be made small enough to fit into anti-aircraft projectiles. [Ny Teknik 46:1995] - - - - - - - - - --=20 Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se http://www.ki.icl.se/urf/ - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: sschaper@mo.net (Steve Schaper) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:20:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Swedish pulse detonation wave engines How would this compare in cost efficiency to rocket engines for boosters? A shuttle with say, 800 hz PDWs might be interesting. - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: celestine@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Stockton) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 21:57 GMT Subject: Hypersonic speed evades shooting down ! Brett Davidson > says on 28th November, Little bit of the old US U-2 thinking here Brett and look what happened=20 to Gary Powers.I appreciate the U-2 was subsonic however your same=20 philosophy was applied but with this time with regard to altitude. A laser beam or particle beam will have no problem with hypersonic speeds! Grahame Stockton celestine@compulink.co.uk - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:27:44 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Hypersonic speed -MOSTLY- evades shooting down ! Sorry, this is a bit longish, but I hope that I'm being clear. On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Michael Stockton wrote: > Brett Davidson > says on 28th November, >=20 > even if it was tracked and a fast enough missile launched,> >=20 > Little bit of the old US U-2 thinking here Brett and look what happened= =20 > to Gary Powers.I appreciate the U-2 was subsonic however your same=20 > philosophy was applied but with this time with regard to altitude. The U-2 was known to be vulnerable in 1960- "Oxcart" was well under way then. Altitude presents the problem of range, but very high speed presents a much more complicated challenge. The "virtual immunity" (I did overstate the case somewhat, but I didn't say "absolute immunity" :-7 ) of high speed has more to do with basic distance, time and geometry than simply being too fast to outrun. High speed manoeuvres entail great distances- as a result very small changes of course can require a great deal of cross-range capability that is not generally considered practical for very high speed and altitude missiles. The scales involved are not mere exaggerations of existing scales- they are in effect an entirely different regime. The Soviet pilot who defected in a MiG-25, Viktor Belyenko, commented that SR-71s were virtually impossible to intercept because of this: side-on, they passed in and out of range too quickly to acquire, track and fire; fro= m behind, it was impossible to accelerate up to a matching speed and still be= in range- and in the unlikely event of being forewarned and approaching head-on, the closing speeds were to great for the missiles to react to cross-range manoeuvres: in short, there were windows of opportunity to a priveleged manned, (compared to a missile) agile high speed and altitude platform, but they opened and closed far too quickly to be exploited. By the late 1970s, SA-10 and SA-12 surface to air missiles posed a threat to SR-71s on the level of MiG-25s, but were also subject to the same limitations. Staying on the edge of Soviet airspace and using SAR appears to have worked as far as they were concerned. In any case, after the Powers incident, direct manned overflights were ceased (I think) as a matter of policy as well as tactics and oblique observational methods were used. It is not impossible to shoot down a very fast vehicle; it is however, extremely difficult. > A laser beam or particle beam will have no problem with hypersonic speeds= ! Indeed, but nobody has any systems deployed, or is likely to for quite some time. No practical laser or particle beam weapon has been demonstrated- th= e SDI demonstrations were so rigged as to be virtual frauds and the BMDO proposal to put lasers on 747s is limited by the economics and logistics of keeping them permanently in the air. They would be fine for theatre warfare with defined, temporary states of alert, but a permanent state of alert would be impossible. That is the only laser defense system likely to appear soon, and it is about ten years away at best. The Russian= s might have the technical ability, but they hardly have the financial capability.=20 Obviously no advantage is absolute or permanent, but designers have to deal with possible solutions to likely problems. *If* "Aurora" exists, it would enjoy significant advantages *now* and continue to do so for some tim= e. Regards, --Brett - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #526 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:48:33 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Laser power requirements On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Michael Stockton wrote: >=20 > Surely a direct feed to a nuclear power station would be the answer in=20 > practical terms. The technology is there but as to whether in this day=20 > and age now it is likely to ever be taken to that limit I doubt. Look up Edward Teller and his X-ray laser proposals! Not power stations- bombs! Unbuilt, though. Most high power laser designs rely on internal combustion of the lasing medium rather than external power- but see below. >=20 > (BTW > A few years ago down here in Cornwall England we used to get an enormous= =20 > electric ~draw~ from an unknown to the public source in this country=20 > rural area. The size of the power draw was large and the question as to= =20 > its reason large but answers were very small!! There were and still are= =20 > quite a few ~odd ~ establishments down in this area. This draw was=20 > usually at night but whether that would have changed in war times I don't= =20 > know. ) >=20 My copy of Ben Rich's book is at home, but I seem to remember that in part of it he said that they did the wind tunnel tests for the A-12 at night; both for security and the high power requirements, general power useage being lower at night. Could be wind tunnel tests of high speed missiles. Free-Electron-Lasers use powerful electromagnets to tune the output frequency by affecting the oscillation of electrons in the lasing medium (I think). They would require significant electrical power. Laboratory FEL prototypes? Who knows? The uninformative official explanation makes ones ears prick up- but is it "the dog that didn't bark" or just British official reticence? - - - - - - - - --Brett > I wonder what sort of megawatt would be needed to supply a ground laser= =20 > of sufficient power to bring down a missile or aircraft? >=20 > Grahame Stockton > celestine@compulink.co.uk >=20 - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:35:24 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Hypersonic speed -MOSTLY- evades shooting down ! On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Steve Schaper wrote: > I was under the impression that weapons-grade lasers worked by explosivel= y > vaporizing a small amount of target surface, and pulsing at a rate design= ed > to let the plasma cloud dissipate for the next burst to get through. The > result is an explosive process that tears the target apart. Probably?possibly that too. The relatively early research I remember relied on sudden thermal expansion sending a kinetic shock through the relatively flimsy shell of a missile... a more sophisticated "phaser" (sic!- "phased array laser") was proposed using multiple collimated beams with phased pulses that reinforced the kinetic shock oscillations by resonance a la Tacoma bridge... can't cite any sources, however. This does seem more likey to me because of the lower energy requirements than would be the case for vaporisation of material. I don't have any idea what the current approach is. - - - - - - - - --Brett - - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: megazone@world.std.com (MegaZone) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:01:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Just Jokin' Once upon a time John Kelleher shaped the electrons to say... >Virtually all known ships can submerge. The issues lie more in whether it >can, under its own power, resurface. ROTFLMAO! Thank you, I *really* needed that.... BTW, what's the latest on the AF-117X naval proposal? Still in limbo, or dead? - - - - - - - - -MZ - - - - - - - - -- megazone@world.std.com 510-527-0944 MegaZone's Waste Of Time Moderator: anime fanfic archive, ftp.std.com /archives/anime-fan-works;=20 rec.arts.anime.stories - Maintainer: Ani Difranco Mailing List - Mail to majordomo@world.std.com with 'subscribe ani-difranco' in the body. - - - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #530 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: =09unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 22:48:56 EST Subject: Satellites and the SR For those of you that wish to attempt to predict where and when the chinese satellite will re-enter, here is the note that the author of the tracking program STSplus, Dave Ransom has to say. '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 01 DEC 95 A recent Aviation Week & Space Technology article mentioned that a Chinese spy satellite was expected to re-enter early next year. I've had a number of queries for TLEs and, thanks to help from TS Kelso and Phil Clark, we've got 'em! See file FSW-1.TLE! The correct NORAD Number is 22870, International Designation 1993 063H. TS Kelso has advised me that he is adding the same file to his Internet site at ftp://archive.afit.af.mil/pub/space and it will be updated automatically! ***** here are the 2-line elements ********** JIANBING-93 P/L(1) =20 1 22870U 93063H 95335.24898568 .00304666 82639-5 20323-3 0 3248 2 22870 56.4566 96.6266 0604138 229.7187 124.9507 14.94537215 2456 - - - - - - - -------------------------------------------------------------= ------------ IMHO: What makes this topic remotely related to the skunk-works list, is according to the Air Force, the SR-71 was retired because satellites can provide the same coverage as the Blackbird, without it coming out of the AF budget each year. (a very loose translation on my part) As you can see, if you take these TLE's and plug them into a tracking program, you can predict the times that this Chinese spy sat will be over= =20 your area, therefore you hide what you don,t want to be seen and take a break. As an example, here are the next 2 days for "break time" (overflight= s) for my area ( Louisville Ky) by this Sat.=20 If you have a resource that can overfly a "target" without bring predictabl= e such as the SR, you gain the advantage. KEEP EM FLYING My .02=9B John Szalay jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com - - - - - - - ---- STSORBIT PLUS Data Output to STSPLUS.LOG, Data =3D 19=20 =20 Location: Louisville, KY Prepared: Friday, 01 Dec 1995 22:22:32 =20 Satellite Name: JIANBING-93 P/L Catalog Number: 22870 93063H =20 TLE Filename: FSW-1.TLE =20 -----------AOS----------- --MAX VISIBILITY-- ------LOS------ # EST Date & Time Azm EST Time Alt Azm EST Time Azm Duration = V 1 02 DEC 95 02:42:32 184.0 02:50:30 26 118.7 02:58:54 54.5 0:16:22 = =20 2 02 DEC 95 04:21:14 227.9 04:30:18 73 314.5 04:39:30 42.4 0:18:16 = =20 3 02 DEC 95 06:02:59 267.2 06:11:28 24 332.8 06:19:34 39.7 0:16:35 = * 4 02 DEC 95 07:46:19 300.5 07:53:41 13 353.7 08:00:22 48.9 0:14:03 = =20 5 02 DEC 95 09:28:39 318.2 09:36:05 16 15.8 09:42:21 76.4 0:13:42 = =20 6 02 DEC 95 11:09:26 319.3 11:17:37 45 38.4 11:23:43 119.2 0:14:17 = =20 7 02 DEC 95 12:50:18 306.9 12:57:13 24 242.5 13:02:29 173.3 0:12:11 = =20 8 03 DEC 95 01:12:01 137.4 01:16:20 4 107.5 01:20:48 78.0 0:08:47 = =20 9 03 DEC 95 02:46:36 195.5 02:54:59 38 122.4 03:03:52 50.4 0:17:16 = =20 10 03 DEC 95 04:26:05 237.9 04:35:06 53 319.3 04:44:09 41.0 0:18:04 = =20 11 03 DEC 95 06:08:22 276.4 06:16:32 20 337.8 06:24:17 40.7 0:15:55 = * 12 03 DEC 95 07:51:36 306.5 07:58:52 13 359.2 08:05:24 54.2 0:13:48 = =20 13 03 DEC 95 09:33:24 319.7 09:41:07 20 21.5 09:47:26 86.1 0:14:02 = =20 14 03 DEC 95 11:14:00 317.6 11:22:14 70 43.7 11:28:17 131.3 0:14:17 = =20 15 03 DEC 95 12:55:12 300.9 13:01:15 14 247.2 13:06:06 189.1 0:10:54 = =20 =1A - - - - - - ------------------------------ From: etech@deltanet.com (Eric Chevalier) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 23:23:39 PST Subject: Re: Mac(h)rihanish This isn't very skunky, so I'll try to keep it brief :) I'd never heard of Mac(h)rihanish until a recent spate of messages in this = list. But a few days ago, after seeing the messages, I was surprised to se= e the name pop up in the closing credits of the movie "White Nights" (Mikha= il Baryshnikov and Gregory Hines, portraying dancers trying to escape of th= e Sovuet Union). I think it was used to portray a Soviet military base in = Siberia. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D etech@deltanet.com Eric Chevalier Compu$erve: 76010,2463 etech@netcom.com --------------------- Prodigy: GCXJ11A http://www.deltanet.com/users/etech =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #531 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: =09unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). - - - - - ------------------------------ From: celestine@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Stockton) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 12:48 GMT Subject: Re Stripped out speedy F15 Michael writes=20 < Really stripped machine. All weapons systems removed, radar taken out, etc... They even stipped the paint off (saving a whopping 7 pounds - but that=20 just goes to show you what an extent they went to save weight!)> Was there ever any suggestion that the Russians did a similar thing when=20 they finally ~got ~ an U-2 with Gary on board. The US did seem to be a bit surprised to get caught out...The Soviets=20 could easily have done the same thing by using a stripped out machine=20 with one missile OR was it brought down by a SAM...one of those big heavy= =20 long range brutes.(I was very very into those sorts of interests/things=20 at that time)Was was the Soviet front line interceptor at that time=20 surely not Mig 23's Grahame celestine@compulink.co.uk - - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #532 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). - - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #533 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: =09unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). - - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #534 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). - - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #535 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: =09unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #536 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #537 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: =09unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM= " is the issue number). From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 19:48:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA13824 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:47:37 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA13799 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:47:32 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id TAA28877; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:47:32 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:47:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: EM Waves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Robert Stirniman wrote: > Robert Shannon writes: > > After rechecking, I find that indeed the electric and magnetic fields are > > not in phase, but 90 degrees our of phase to each other. Maximum electric > > intensity with minimum magnetic intensity, and maximum magnetic intensity > > with minimum electric intensity. > > Maybe this should be checked again. My understanding is that in a > transverse EM wave the electric and magnetic fields are orthogonal, > 90 degrees apart in space, but in time they are in-phase. Yes, empty space is supposed to be the same as a transmission line, and to any AC generator connected to its end, a long transmission line looks like a resistor. So, if you have a billion-mile twisted pair, and you connect an AC generator to it, you have voltage and current wave in phase, just as if the transmission line was a resistor (where the two waves are only at one point, yet even so are in-phase.) Or might it be true that the phase of E versus M is zero in long (or in properly terminated) transmission lines, while it is 90deg when it has lept off the antenna and is propagating in space? But still there then is the question, why in transmission lines is an AC signal (in other words a wave) made up of halfwave "chunks" of energy with nulls between them, while sound waves in waveguides are made up of continuous energy in the form of quadrature potential and kinetic waves? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 20:09:35 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA20648 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:09:16 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA20583 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:09:07 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id UAA00838; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:08:37 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:08:35 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: patents and copyrights, the hard cold facts. In-Reply-To: <4F06+KvnjkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > So, we have only one recourse here, to keep trade secrets, and use your > personal technology for "self improvment". You might share it with trusted > associates, as only by this will others benifit from your work. > Unfortunately, ideas do not do well in isolation, but thrive in the company > of others. Or go the ancient and (honorable?) route of academia and research publications, where you have a benefactor supporting you so you can then give your ideas away for "free." > This sad state of affiars has keep important technology "underground" for > far too long. We must find a new way to move beyond this self impossed > exile if new technologies are going to get to those who truely need them. I wonder if a "black market" in free energy devices, alternative healing, etc., might be the way to go. Word of mouth and listserve advertizing, mail order purchases, etc. This though is more oriented towards fending off government secrecy orders and sudden visits by the FDA's vitamin-pill storm troopers. One alternative paradigm is the corporation, where the inventors are all employees (or owners?) of the company, their intellectual property is released within the corporation and controlled by the verbiage of their employment contracts, everyone benefits, and progress is rapid because of open communication and synergy. ANd anyone leaving the corp. cannot prevent the corp. from continuing to use their discoveries. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 20:22:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA24747 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:22:08 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA24737 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:22:06 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id UAA01866; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:22:06 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:22:06 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: EM waves In-Reply-To: <199512021018.VAA25818@tornado.netspace.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30 Nov 95 at 17:55, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in > phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this > case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? > Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently > become longitudnal scalar transmission? One thing I recall from intro physics and EM waves: the change in E causes the change in M. Or more conventionally, the M field is the second derivative of the E field. So, rather than E causing M and vise versa, maybe we should look at this as if both are connected to a third wave which *IS* 90deg out of phase with both of them. So, what is the third wave? What field is the *first* derivative of either E or M field? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 20:33:19 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA27865 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:33:17 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA27845 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:33:13 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id UAA02596; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:33:13 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:33:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Troy Reed? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just noticed reedh@indirect.com on the 'who' list. Is this Troy Reed, the inventor of the Reed electric vehicle? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 19:54:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA15665 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:54:16 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA15649 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:54:13 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA01028; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:52:55 -0500 Date: 02 Dec 95 22:51:03 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Aluminum foil connection Message-ID: <951203035102_76216.2421_HHB39-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Nov 30, 1995 I wrote: < In the alternative, has < anyone had any success soldering to or conductively gluing wire leads to < aluminum foil in a nice non-lossy connection? And on Dec 2, 1995 Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >This may turn out to be "lossy" rather than "non-lossy", and I >haven't tried it, but how about using a paper-clip for the connection >to the aluminum foil? A wire can be soldered onto the paper-clip >first. And on Dec 2 1995 Bane wrote: >i have gotten this tacktic to work in limited success. i found that >if you used some sand paper or steel wool and scoured it lightly so >as to remove any outer residue the results do improve. Thanks for these suggestions. I suppose a tight crimp using a bit of tin or copper sheetmetal, or even a paperclip would work ok, maybe even gathering a bundle of several foil edges together and crimping them with one such clip. Of course the reasons for avoiding mechanical connections are that besides pointy ion loss areas, they might tend to arc unless a very good tight bond is achieved. A real soldered joint would eliminate any arcing between the wire and the foil right in such connections, and tends to be smooth if you're careful. Smoothness is actually the big deal, because charge carriers run along the surface, and might tend to take a shortcut across the hard little undercuts that are unavoidable in any mechanical bond. This project is only a BB effect static 'dc' capacitor, so some things that might bother a sizeable cap for rf work are probably of no concern to me here since charge-discharge cycles are few and hopefully not so sudden. I don't want to add too much weight if I can help it though, that's one of the reasons I don't just use heavier and more easily available (but expensive) copper sheetmetal. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 20:21:21 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA24565 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:21:20 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA24403 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:20:55 -0800 Received: from t46.dialup.peg.apc.org (t46.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.174]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id PAA22339 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:20:21 +1000 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:20:21 +1000 Message-Id: <199512030520.PAA22339@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Aluminum foil connection Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Nov 30, 1995 I wrote: > >< In the alternative, has >< anyone had any success soldering to or conductively gluing wire leads to >< aluminum foil in a nice non-lossy connection? > >And on Dec 2, 1995 Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>This may turn out to be "lossy" rather than "non-lossy", and I heetmetal. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > Rick, Way back in my electronics days we could buy aluminium solder. I can't recall ever using it but I remember it created quite a bit of interest in the electronic world when it was marketed. Maybe it's still available? Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 04:52:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA21811 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 04:51:41 -0800 Received: from ix3.ix.netcom.com ([199.182.120.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA21797 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 04:51:38 -0800 Received: from by ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id EAA21208; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 04:49:42 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 04:49:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199512031249.EAA21208@ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: vtx: Electron clusters To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi Bill; Yes I did test the market at a few craft shows. Little kids seem to like them. Most adults find Concentric Tori interesting also. Would anyone like to have a Concentric Tori? Actually the infringement letter came from an inquiry about a message I posted here. I have responded to his letter with my patent number: Des. 352,971. If anyone is going to give us a hard time with infringement litigation, please let us know. I'm in the midst of designing automated manufacturing equipment. I'll stop if there's going to be problems. Dennis & Veredith You wrote: > >On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, dennis lee wrote: > >> Some one has sent me a letter about patent infringement. I'm going to have to sort this >> out before I can continue this thread. > >..meaning that you've been selling the device? > >....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 08:31:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA22850 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:31:14 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA22843 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:31:11 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA24670; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:31:11 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:31:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: vtx: Electron clusters In-Reply-To: <199512031249.EAA21208@ix3.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, dennis lee wrote: > Yes I did test the market at a few craft shows. Little kids seem to > like them. Most adults find Concentric Tori interesting also. Would anyone > like to have a Concentric Tori? Interesting! What do they look like again? I missed the earlier discussion. > Actually the infringement letter came from > an inquiry about a message I posted here. I have responded to his letter > with my patent number: Des. 352,971. If anyone is going to give us a hard > time with infringement litigation, please let us know. I'm in the midst of > designing automated manufacturing equipment. I'll stop if there's going to > be problems. One thing I recently heard from a discussion on patents: claims of infringement won't stand in court if the complaining party doesn't claim damages, and there are no damages to be claimed if the complaining party is not ALSO making and selling their patented product. This impacts the typical "ego patent," where someone has a great idea, patents it, lets the patent sit on the shelf and sells no products, then threatens litigation when someone else independantly discovers the same idea. Apparantly the purpose of patents is NOT to guarantee ownership of an idea. They are intended to allow YOU to protect YOUR BUSINESS against someone else who discovers the same idea and then competes with you. If you cannot afford the legal costs of protecting yourself, then the patent is useless. If you have no business to protect, the patent is useless. This is very different than the way I THOUGHT patents worked. But it sounds very sensible. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 08:33:23 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA23283 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:33:21 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA23268 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:33:18 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA24853; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:33:18 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:33:18 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: FREENRG-LIST messages from November Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've collected all the November messages and put them on the freenrg-list web page. So, if you missed something, you can go back and read the old messages. The file is 1.2 megs! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 09:39:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA08496 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:39:00 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08474 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:38:56 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id MAA10014 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:38:50 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512031738.MAA10014@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: fnrg: Reality warping coil. (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:38:49 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded message: > From panderso@sleepy.ebtech.net Sun Dec 3 01:16:55 1995 > Message-Id: <199512030621.BAA23446@sleepy.ebtech.net> > Comments: Authenticated sender is > From: "Paul Anderson" > To: Multiple.recipients.of.a.fake.listserv@sleepy.ebtech.net > Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:10:38 +0000 > Subject: Reality warping coil. > Reply-to: panderso@ebtech.net > Priority: normal > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) > > I recently stumbled onto plans for a spacetime warping coil. I > personally can't help but be skeptic. Could someone check it out, at > http://zeta.cs.adfa.oz.au/KeelyNet/Gravity/gravity3.asc > and tell me what they think? Is it worth trying to construct such a > device, if it does not work, would the coil left over make a > reasonable Tesla coil? TTYL! > Paul V. Anderson > panderso@ebtech.net > http://www2.ebtech.net/~panderso > PING - Packet Internet Groper > -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 09:43:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA09728 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:43:44 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA09709 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:43:40 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id MAA10117 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:43:33 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512031743.MAA10117@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: fnrg: forcefields To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com (Wierd) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:43:32 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I may or may not have posted this last week, but here it is again. I'm intrested in any info on forcefields. How they work, and how to make one. When I say forcefields, I do not think of he kind in StarTrek. I think of more of a field that repells al types of matter. Dose any body know about some thing like this? I relly relly want to make one. I will use it for many purpuses. Andrew -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 10:03:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA14785 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:03:55 -0800 Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com (ix11.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14761 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:03:50 -0800 Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id KAA27400; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:01:14 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:01:14 -0800 Message-Id: <199512031801.KAA27400@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: vtx: Electron clusters (legal issues) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Bailey wrote: > >One thing I recently heard from a discussion on patents: claims of >infringement won't stand in court if the complaining party doesn't claim >damages, and there are no damages to be claimed if the complaining party >is not ALSO making and selling their patented product. This impacts the >typical "ego patent," where someone has a great idea, patents it, lets the >patent sit on the shelf and sells no products, then threatens litigation >when someone else independantly discovers the same idea. Apparantly the >purpose of patents is NOT to guarantee ownership of an idea. They are >intended to allow YOU to protect YOUR BUSINESS against someone else who >discovers the same idea and then competes with you. If you cannot afford >the legal costs of protecting yourself, then the patent is useless. If >you have no business to protect, the patent is useless. > >This is very different than the way I THOUGHT patents worked. But it >sounds very sensible. 12/3/95 Actually, Bill this is only partially correct. The law is not very sensible or logical. Generally, a patent confers a 17 year monopoly for the idea for the benefit of the patent holder. A patent infringement suit may be for a tort, an injunction or both. Basically, the plantiff must prove 1. the tort (wrong doing) 2. his/her damages and 3. causation (the connection between the tort and damages). If the court agrees with the plantiff then a monetary judgement may ensue. If no damages are proven, the court may still enforce the patent by issuing an injunction against the infringer ordering that all infringment cease. Usually, there is no monetary award if an injunction is issued. I'll give you one guess at which one plantiff attorneys prefer to persue. Hint: $$$. SO, there is some legal remedy for the patent holder even though there may be no monetary award for damages. Actually, the PTO and law consider a patent to be personal propery of the holder which may be sold, traded, etc. They could care less if and when the holder ever produces, manufactures or sells the idea. A patent holder may take ten years to start manufacture and sale of the idea. He/she should still have legal remedy in the interim. I'm sure everyone has heard of instances where a large company is threatened by a new invention and buys the patent right, only to supress production of the product. You can bet they will enforce their patent rights even though they are not producing and selling the idea. As an aside, certain basic phenomenon cannot be patented. Examples are "transistor action" and nuclear devices. If scalar theory proves to be a real phenomenon how will it be classified? SO, it seems to me that Mr. Shannon should make some hard an fast decisions about how he wishes to protect his intellectual property, what ever it may be. In the mean time, there have been multiple, multiple posts by well meaning nonlegal lists participants which have taken up a lot of everyones time regarding these legal issues. SO, Mr. Shannon, please get some trusted professional assistance and get on with it. Then if you wish to share some of your scalar ideas with the list, we would be delighted. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 10:02:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA14342 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:02:06 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14329 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:02:04 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA04380; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:02:01 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:02:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 06:41:19 GMT From: Bufo Calvin To: billb@eskimo.com Subject: Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Bufo Calvin, P.O. Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet e-mail: BUFO.CALVIN@AWAITER.COM Phone (voice, fax, and recorded messages): 510-432-8102 TAP (THE ADDRESS PROJECT) NEARU (National Events by Area Registry of the Unexplained) Bufos WEIRD WORLD (e-zine and paper newsletter) ALL RIGHTS RESERVED December 2, 1995 SO, THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE RV PARKING AT THE PENTAGON! The U.S. Government (well, at least the C.I.A..: they're still supposed to be working for us, right?) has confirmed the employment of psychics (AKA "Remote Viewers") to test their ability to provide information. The project, referred to in recent reports as "Stargate" has been active at the CIA and DIA for at least 20 years (although the CIA claims to have dumped it as unpromising in 1974...just like they say their involvement with UFOs ended in 1953). The general public is finding out about it now because two people have done an assessment of the program to help Congress decide whether or not to keep funding it (one thought it had produced no worthwhile results, the other thought it was useful in combination with other more traditional sources). Of course, it wasn't =that= expensive: about $20,000,000.00 so far. Gee, according to my calculations, they could have been on the phone to the Psychic Hot-line at $3.99 a minute for 12 hours a day every day for that much money. Oh, well, I'm sure they had a money-back guarantee. Anyway, I said the general public is just finding out, because the UFO buffs have known for years. For instance, in Howard Blum's OUT THERE (1990), he describes a secret demonstration of Remote Viewing (he calls it Project Aquarius). UFO MAGAZINE reported on the subject in its May/June issue of 1993. Part of their coverage was about Ed Dames, who ran PSI Tech, a company made up of mostly ex-intelligence guys who did Remote Viewing for private companies. There have been many reference in the UFO literature. The UFO folks generally do't give much coverage to psychic stuff. However, it was alleged that the Remote Viewers were viewing UFOs! In Blum's book, it was an accident. A "scanner" trying to locate a submarine draws a sketch of a domed flying saucer. Dames claims to have been remotely viewing an American orbiting platform when a craft flew by, "coming in over our shoulders". They followed it to New Mexico (psychically at first: Dames later moved PSI Tech there physically as well). There they "saw" an underground base with hybrid aliens and...well, it gets pretty involved. By the way, the idea of using psychics in warfare goes back at least to Charles Fort (an early twentieth century "dataholic" who really created the whole field of writing about weird stuff). I'll quote a brief passage from WILD TALENTS, in which Fort is referring to the theory that poltergeist phenomena are caused by adolescent girls: "...witchcraft would make war too terrible. Really, the Christian thing to do would be to develop the uses of the new magic, so that in the future a war could not even be contemplated. Later: a squad of poltergeist girls--and they pick a fleet out of the sea, or out of the sky... ...Command to the poltergeist girls to concentrate--and under their chairs they stick their wads of chewing gum. A regiment bursts into flames, and the soldiers are torches. Horses snort smoke from the combustion of their entrails. Reinforcements are smashed under cliffs that are teleported from the Rocky Mountains. The snatch of Niagara Falls--it pours upon the battlefield. The little poltergeist girls reach for their wads of chewing gum. PLUG FOR ME Bufo's WEIRD WORLD is reviewed in the current (#58) issue of FACTSHEET 5. If you're not familiar with it, it is the authoritative source for information on "zines" of all types. You can probably find it in a large bookstore, or it can be ordered from FACTSHEET FIVE SUBSCRIPTIONS ($6 for a single issue), P.O. Box 170099, San Francisco, CA 94117-0099. Tell 'em Bufo sent you. PLUG FOR SOMEBODY ELSE One of the hardest working (and most informative) guys out there is Ben S. Roesch, who specializes in cryptozoology (the study of scientically unrecognized species or behaviours...typically, bigfoot and such, but can be much more). I'll let him speak for himself: There is a cryptozoology SIG(special interest group) that I've set up on the National Capital Freenet, in Ottawa Canada. This freenet can reached by telnet at: 134.117.1.25 or by gopher(search for the Freenet in one of the gopher searchers, preferably the one owned by the University of Minnesota). When connected to the freenet, login as guest, and then type "go crypt- zoo"(without qoutes) at any Your Choice==>. Comments, suggestions or critiscisms should be directed to me at bz050@freenet.carleton.ca. MEDIA ALERT EXTREMELY WEIRD, an NBC network program dealing with my kind of stuff (Spontaneous Human Combustion, sea monsters, etc) will air Sunday, 12/3/95 at 7:00 p.m.. Okay, so they didn't have me on this time, but I'll certainly watch it. This is Bufo saying, If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:22:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA05351 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:22:24 -0800 Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA05315 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:22:16 -0800 Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 18:24:28 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <12570@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: ...no subject... X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 18 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why do you find it odd that the E and M vectors are in quadrature? Consider the case of a voltage, fed through a resistance and applied as a step function across an inductor. At t=0 the voltage across the inductor will be V_source, whilst the current throught the inductor will be zero. As the current through the inductor increases at di/dt = V/L, then the voltage will fall, giving V=0 at t=infinity (assuming a perfect inductor) The current will now be limited by the resistor, so that i = i_max when V=0. A similar argument applies to the signal across a capacitor. Although the propagation of an EM wave is more complex than this trivial example, the reason for i=0 at V=V_max, and V=0 at i=i_max follows a similar line of reasoning. Don't forget, the propagation of an EM wave depends a lot on those strange concepts, the permeability and permetivity of free space. (Whatever free space might be) -- Chris Morriss From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:22:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA05405 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:22:31 -0800 Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA05335 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:22:19 -0800 Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 18:41:53 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <12571@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Tesla Toys.... X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 6 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The British electronics magazine, 'Electronics World' had a serious constructional article on Tesla coils in the March 1995 edition. I believe that the mag is readily available in the US, so perhaps a local library may have a copy. -- Chris Morriss From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:00:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA29369 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:00:19 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA29356 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:00:16 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA09107; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:58:58 -0500 Date: 03 Dec 95 13:58:01 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Aluminum foil connection Message-ID: <951203185800_76216.2421_HHB36-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Dec 2 1995 Jim Francis wrote: > Rick, >Way back in my electronics days we could buy aluminium solder. I can't >recall ever using it but I remember it created quite a bit of interest in >the electronic world when it was marketed. Maybe it's still available? >Jim Thanks Jim. I had some "aluminum solder" a few years ago, and tried to use it on various aluminum objects with no success. Of course this was probably due to cold metal because of the tendency of thicker aluminum objects to flow heat away from the soldering area. I can't remember trying it on foil though, where the heat flow problem would be minimal. Can't find it in the hardware or electronic stores here, but I'm still looking. I did find in the Mouser Electronics catalog a silver loaded 2-part epoxy that's supposedly very conductive and is sold for electronic connections, as well as a silver pen for drawing conductive traces which can be soldered over. I'd like to be able to use aluminum foil for it's cost and convenience, and just nail down a good solution to a non-mechanical smooth-filling wire contact method. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:41:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA10444 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:41:33 -0800 Received: from picard.msoe.edu (picard.msoe.edu [155.92.10.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10399 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:41:26 -0800 Received: from warp.msoe.edu ([155.92.15.1]) by obrien.msoe.edu (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Sun, 03 Dec 1995 13:41:12 EST Received: from WARP/MAILQUEUE by warp.msoe.edu (Mercury 1.21); 3 Dec 95 13:41:08 GMT+6 Received: from MAILQUEUE by WARP (Mercury 1.21); 3 Dec 95 13:40:54 GMT+6 From: "Bane" Organization: Milwaukee School of Engineering To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:40:52 CST6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: fnrg: Reality warping coil. (fwd) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-ID: <29F5E0291A@warp.msoe.edu> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: i ran across it a while ago... it looked like one messed up device. adn if you unplugged it fast enough the entire apperatus could dubble as a bomb.... personally i think it is a interesting concept but i dont have the guts to try it... -ian geiser ian gieser . /_\ Your lack of passion is unforgiveable. Now I will be forced to beat you. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:44:50 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA11263 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:44:49 -0800 Received: from odo.msoe.edu (root@odo.msoe.edu [155.92.10.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA11239 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:44:43 -0800 Received: by odo.msoe.edu; id AA19491; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:44:23 -0600 Received: from WARP/MAILQUEUE by warp.msoe.edu (Mercury 1.21); 3 Dec 95 13:44:29 GMT+6 Received: from MAILQUEUE by WARP (Mercury 1.21); 3 Dec 95 13:44:12 GMT+6 From: "Bane" Organization: Milwaukee School of Engineering To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:44:10 CST6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: fnrg: Bufo's WEIRD WORLD (fwd) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-Id: <2A03F054AC@warp.msoe.edu> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: where did this come fromadn can i get on their mailing list??? ian gieser . /_\ Your lack of passion is unforgiveable. Now I will be forced to beat you. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 11:55:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA13985 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:55:27 -0800 Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com (ix11.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA13958 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:55:21 -0800 Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id LAA14805; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:52:46 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:52:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199512031952.LAA14805@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: EM waves To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > > > On 30 Nov 95 at 17:55, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > > > In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in > > phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this > > case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? > > Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently > > become longitudnal scalar transmission? > >One thing I recall from intro physics and EM waves: the change in E causes >the change in M. Or more conventionally, the M field is the second >derivative of the E field. So, rather than E causing M and vise versa, >maybe we should look at this as if both are connected to a third wave >which *IS* 90deg out of phase with both of them. > >So, what is the third wave? What field is the *first* derivative of >either E or M field? > 12/3/95 Right on Bill. Excellent observations. Energy cannot cease to exist at certain points and then suddenly be recreated de noveau at other points. There is probably a smooth energy continuum and (1.) we've either ignored or havn't discovered it, or (2.) our senses are not evolved allowing us to observe this phenomenon. This leads to the postulation that Maxwell's equations may still be incomplete. After all, they are only mathmatical models we use to explain real phenomena. By the way, the nice sinusodal curves drawn to represent EM wave components represent field strength vectors. >So, what is the third wave? Let's persue the first explaination above. Look at your right hand. Remember the right hand rule for electromagnetic force fields. Yes, there are three orthogonal fields -- electric, magnetic and force. Remember, the force provided or exerted on a conducting conductor moving through a magnetic field in a generator or motor? Have we ignored Force all along? All this is too simple or is it? Can we set up an experiment to dynamically measure these relationships? Perhaps drive a body(s) with variable synchronised E and M fields while measuring force imparted on the body. Then can we derive an equation(s) that relates F to E and M fields in experimentally measured data? How can we visualize these three orthogonal fields? Time usually occupies the x axis when we represent an EM wave statically (y and z axes represent the E and M fields). I suggest that F be placed on the x axis and time intervals be represented dynamically by frames in a cine loop. I envision the F field buldging in an out in some type of sinusoidal oscillation synchronized (but not necessarily in phase) with the E and M oscillations. More on the second explanation later. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 12:09:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA18227 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:09:17 -0800 Received: from ix.ix.netcom.com (ix.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA18213 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:09:14 -0800 Received: from by ix.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id MAA09917; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:07:45 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:07:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199512032007.MAA09917@ix.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Aluminum foil connection To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >On Dec 2 1995 Jim Francis wrote: > > > Rick, > >Way back in my electronics days we could buy aluminium solder. I can't > >recall ever using it but I remember it created quite a bit of interest in > >the electronic world when it was marketed. Maybe it's still available? > >Jim > >Thanks Jim. I had some "aluminum solder" a few years ago, and tried to use it >on various aluminum objects with no success. Of course this was probably due to >cold metal because of the tendency of thicker aluminum objects to flow heat >away from the soldering area. I can't remember trying it on foil though, where >the heat flow problem would be minimal. Can't find it in the hardware or >electronic stores here, but I'm still looking. I did find in the Mouser >Electronics catalog a silver loaded 2-part epoxy that's supposedly very >conductive and is sold for electronic connections, as well as a silver pen for >drawing conductive traces which can be soldered over. I'd like to be able to >use aluminum foil for it's cost and convenience, and just nail down a good >solution to a non-mechanical smooth-filling wire contact method. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > 12/3/95 LDM MYSTIC welding rods are advertised as a low-temp alloy for joins, repairs and welds with aluminum, pot metal, brass and stainless steel. See OminModels catalog 800-342-6464 fx 217-398-7731. Add caught my eye. Havn't tried them. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 12:19:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21398 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:19:54 -0800 Received: from ns2.indirect.com (root@ns2.indirect.com [165.247.1.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21356 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:19:46 -0800 Received: from indirect (s6.phxslip4.indirect.com [165.247.24.6]) by ns2.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA04714 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:19:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:19:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199512032019.NAA04714@ns2.indirect.com> X-Sender: xaq@mail.indirect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: xaq@indirect.com (Zach Radding) Subject: fnrg: BIEFELD-BROWN Has anyone made it work? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have been reading this group for about three weeks, and have heared a number of people talking about the B-B effect and associated devices. It sounds like some of you have built these devices. Do they work? Has anyone built a two foot round disk shaped capacitor, and had it fly around the room? I am real interested in the subject, and have read every link I can find on the subject, but I have not found anyone claiming to have built one of these things in the past 40 years except Brown himself. Zach Radding P.S. To the people I was talking to about the cutting laser last week. I tryed cutting thin copper plating (the kind that you find on un-eched circuit boards), and the laser didn't even scratch it. The problem is that the laser is only 25 watts, and metals have a very hight melting point (unlike 1/4 inch plastic that it cuts like butter). I still don't know about the mylar. I will be getting a laser for my self in the next month or two, but it is the same 25 watts. I am also looking into getting a plasma cutter, that would cut metal without any problem. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 12:35:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26300 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:35:24 -0800 Received: from ix3.ix.netcom.com (ix3.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA26253 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:35:17 -0800 Received: from by ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id MAA16885; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:33:20 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:33:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199512032033.MAA16885@ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: EM waves. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 12/3/95 In my original EM waves post I wrote and stand by: >"In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in >phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this >case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? >Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently >become longitudnal scalar transmission?" > ... Mr. Shannon, Please cite your source that you rechecked that lead you to conclude in your following post: >After rechecking, I find that indeed the electric and magnetic fields are >not in phase, but 90 degrees our of phase to each other. Maximum electric >intensity with minimum magnetic intensity, and maximum magnetic intensity >with minimum electric intensity. > >The "energy" of the wave oscillates between the electric and magnetic >fields, and at no time are both of these zero at the same time as some have >thought. Again, it's off that maximum "flow" (current) happends under >minimum "pressure" (voltage). > .. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 00:45:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA29637 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:45:11 -0800 Received: from legend (legend.txdirect.net [204.57.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA29627 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:45:07 -0800 From: todd@legend.txdirect.net Received: from todd.txdirect.net (dynm01-040.txdirect.net) by legend (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA01350; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:39:20 -0600 Message-Id: <9512040839.AA01350@legend> X-Sender: todd@mail.txdirect.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 14:43:56 -0700 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: A few questions Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was welding today, and when flipping on the welder(AC) it makes a thump. What causes this thump, it only does it if it's been off for more than about 5 seconds. If you turn it off and right back on it doesn't do it. Is this because there is still power built up in the transformer and it takes less power to get it back up to 220vAC? Can a AC transformer be used with DC. I wouldn't think that it would be wound any differently for AC. I was looking at a microwave earlier, what is the use of the capacitor? I was trying to figure out how it's wired up, there is 3 coils in the transformer:1. large coil in 2. small coil out 3. large coil single wire out. The large coil single wire out goes directly to the capacitor. The small coil, having only one flat layer of about 20 wounds of normal coated wire, has both ends connecting to the microwave tube. And one wire connecting the capacitor to the tube. Now if I have this right that would mean there is a low voltage on the tube when the powers on, and high voltage after the capacitor charges and ?automaticly? dischages. Is this right? This wouldn't make a very steady rate of cooking. But then again that's pretty normal for a microwave. Someone a while back was talking about the 2.45GHz that a microwave produces. I'm wondering, is the Hz all decided in the microwave "tube"? Would it be possible to change this or make it variable? Would there be some other way to change it, like before it ever gets to the "tube". When refering to inducing of a certain Hz on a device, would this mean that it has to be AC. Thats if Hz refers to the cycles of alternating the current. What would I use to affect the cycles. And what about a device to produce a pulse of 0.5 a cycle or DC, that would also be able to shorten this to the equalivent of 2.45GHz. The capacitor in this microwave said 2000VAC 0.85yf. Is it really possible to store AC? How does one normally go about discharging a capacitor. Do you just short it out or is there a safer way? Thanks for any help. Todd From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 14:27:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02994 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:27:19 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA02968 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:27:14 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA10882; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:17:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA06379; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:26:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:26:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512032226.QAA06379@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Reality warping coil. (fwd) Cc: neotech@world.std.com, panderso@ebtech.net Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Forwarded message: >> From panderso@sleepy.ebtech.net Sun Dec 3 01:16:55 1995 >> Message-Id: <199512030621.BAA23446@sleepy.ebtech.net> >> Comments: Authenticated sender is >> From: "Paul Anderson" >> To: Multiple.recipients.of.a.fake.listserv@sleepy.ebtech.net >> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:10:38 +0000 >> Subject: Reality warping coil. >> Reply-to: panderso@ebtech.net >> Priority: normal >> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) >> >> I recently stumbled onto plans for a spacetime warping coil. I >> personally can't help but be skeptic. Could someone check it out, at >> http://zeta.cs.adfa.oz.au/KeelyNet/Gravity/gravity3.asc >> and tell me what they think? Is it worth trying to construct such a >> device, if it does not work, would the coil left over make a >> reasonable Tesla coil? TTYL! >> Paul V. Anderson >> panderso@ebtech.net >> http://www2.ebtech.net/~panderso >> PING - Packet Internet Groper >> Hi, This article is actually the thing that got me interested in free energy, scalar waves, etc in the first place! Someone made an attempt to post it on a ham radio BBS a couple years ago but the text got partially jumbled. But it led me on a search that ended up here! Thanks Bill Beaty for having it on your "weird science" homepage! Has anyone out there built and tried this thing yet? I have many of the parts, and it looks like the coil form is the only thing that will be difficult. I'm going to ask my friendly neighborhood plastics expert about it this week. Zack w9sz@prairienet.org P.S. I think the coil would work very well as a Tesla coil, but the ratio of windings would probably have to be changed. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 14:55:09 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA12068 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:54:46 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA12011 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:54:36 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA12402; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:45:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA14817; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:54:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:54:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512032254.QAA14817@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Whittaker papers on WWW! Cc: ftlofaro@lil-ed.cs.unlv.edu Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >In message <199512012008.OAA21283@l2.conline.com>, Svartalf writes: >>I keep seeing references to Whittaker's works in all of the Scalar/Free >>Energy works. Unfortunately, I have run into a stone wall as to obtaining a >>copy (Of some form or another.) Anybody out there that can help connect me >>to these works? I'm slowly accumulating a body of the work for myself and >>several of my like-minded friends in the Dallas area. Any help in this >>would be _greatly_ appreciated. >>Frank Earl >>Earl Consulting Services- >> > >You can get a copy off the World Wide Web from my home page at: > >http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/ > >And follow the links for Strange and Unknown, then Alternative Science. > >Or use these URLs for the files themselves (if these don't work, just >follow the links above) > >http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1903.troff.eqn.gz >http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1904.troff.eqn.gz > Hi, I haven't tried decoding these yet. What ftp site did they come from? What is the source of the 1903 paper? Its title and publication? I found the 1904 paper in the U of Ill. library. It's "On An Expression Of The Electromagnetic Field Due To Electrons By Means Of Two Scalar Potential Functions" by E. T. Whittaker, PROCEEDINGS OF THE LONDON MATHEMATICAL SOCIETY Series 2 Vol. 1, 1904, pgs. 367-372. I have a copy of it now. I also found some other interesting books by Mr. Whittaker: A HISTORY OF THE THEORIES OF AETHER AND ELECTRICITY, Vol. 1 and 2, Thomas Nelson and Sons, Ltd, Edinburgh 1951; and A TREATISE ON THE ANALYTICAL DYNAMICS OF PARTICLES AND RIGID BODIES, Cambridge University Press 1904. Just what I need for long cold winter nights! Zack Widup w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:56:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA20888 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:55:36 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA20855 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:55:31 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA20845 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:46:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA19656; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:55:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:55:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512040055.SAA19656@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Whittaker papers on WWW! Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >At these URLs on the Whittaker papers: > >>http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1903.troff.eqn.gz >>http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1904.troff.eqn.gz > > >All I got were Klingon characters. Does anybody know what the encoding is for >these files? Thanks. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > I was just able to get them via anonymous ftp at: hoffman.rstnu.bcm.tmc.edu Directory "cd pub/free_energy/noring/Whittaker" then "get 1903.troff.eqn.Z" "get 1904.troff.eqn.Z" These can be uncompressed with the normal ".Z" uncompression. Have fun! There's lots of other stuff at this site on free energy. It will take a while to get it but it looks great! Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:42:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA16659 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:42:46 -0800 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA16623 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:42:39 -0800 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA25786; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:41:16 -0500 Date: 03 Dec 95 19:39:29 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: BIEFELD-BROWN... Message-ID: <951204003929_76216.2421_HHB31-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Dec 3, Zach Radding wrote: >... >I am real interested in the subject, and have read every >link I can find on the subject, but I have not found anyone claiming to have >built one of these things in the past 40 years except Brown himself. * * * Dec 3 Zach - I think people have seen it. I've seen a reference to a demo at one of the Tesla Society meetings where they installed a unit said to exhibit electrogravitic principles at their museum. The device was built by Larry Deavanport of Amarillo, TX. There's a picture of it in the "After Hours" pamphlet for tesla Society members. Doesn't show much or give particulars, but it looks like a horizontal or possibly pivoted torsion balance with "things" on the end. I also received a reference to a report from a test sponsored by the USAF in '88 which showed some positive results from an experiment using unequal sized electrodes. They reported a force opposite that of the expected ionic wind, and opposite that reported by TTB for a vacuum (towards the positive pole). As to the force working apparently in reverse, I saw somewhere in TTB's writings, one of the patents I think, where the force was described as occuring usually but not *always* towards the "+" pole, and sometimes towards the "-" side. Makes sense since if a stacked lamination of cap plates shows the force at a level greater than a single pair of plates the same size, it must be running in "reverse" through about half the dielectrics in the stack. I've also got the video taken from film in 1959 at Bahanson labs showing some of those unequal electrode devices which look like nested metal screen umbrellas. One sequence shows one levitating and nearly "flying around the room". Of course, that's TTB himself doing the work. I'd like to see the BB force where I really knew I was seening that and not something electrostatic or ionic. I'm getting close to setup time, so I want do a good job of isolating it. I just joined the Tesla Society, and it's a pretty good source of books and materials. Tom Valone has a number of things on BB experiments and reports, and is the source of the TTB video. Tom's company is: Integrity Research Institute 1377 K Street, Suite 204 Washington, DC 20005 (202) 452-7674 (800) 259-7674 I'll be posting my progress here as well as on the Encounters forum on Compuserve. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:42:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA16664 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:42:47 -0800 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA16622 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:42:39 -0800 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA25790; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:41:17 -0500 Date: 03 Dec 95 19:39:33 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Whittaker papers on WWW! Message-ID: <951204003932_76216.2421_HHB31-3@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At these URLs on the Whittaker papers: >http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1903.troff.eqn.gz >http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1904.troff.eqn.gz All I got were Klingon characters. Does anybody know what the encoding is for these files? Thanks. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 21:57:12 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA23011 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:56:56 -0800 Received: from JIMI.CS.UNLV.EDU (jimi.CS.UNLV.EDU [131.216.22.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA22979 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:56:47 -0800 Message-Id: <199512040556.VAA22979@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from lil-ed.CS.UNLV.EDU by JIMI.CS.UNLV.EDU id aa17175; 3 Dec 95 21:50 PST To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Whittaker papers on WWW! In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Dec 1995 19:39:33 EST." <951204003932_76216.2421_HHB31-3@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 21:49:58 -0800 From: Frank T Lofaro Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In message <951204003932_76216.2421_HHB31-3@CompuServe.COM>, Rick Monteverde writes: >At these URLs on the Whittaker papers: > >>http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1903.troff.eqn.gz >>http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/1904.troff.eqn.gz > >All I got were Klingon characters. Does anybody know what the encoding is for >these files? Thanks. Gzipped eqn troff. Yeah pretty complicated, but that's how file formats are these days. And automatic content handling has a long way to go (plus the (NCSA HTTPd) web server would have to stop claiming they are text files!) Encoding the files is the only way to keep them from eating up too much space and making sure they are portable and have all the original content. Anyway, I have a link to complete instructions for downloading and converting the files on my Alternative Science page at: http://www.unlv.edu/~ftlofaro/strange/alt-sci/ It mentions the FTP site where I got them from. The FTP site doesn't have instructions on converting the files, though (the files on the FTP site are encoded also). From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:38:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA14830 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:37:44 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA14767 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:37:33 -0800 Received: from t46.dialup.peg.apc.org (t46.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.174]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id LAA23326 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:37:04 +1000 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:37:04 +1000 Message-Id: <199512040137.LAA23326@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Aluminum foil connection Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Dec 2 1995 Jim Francis wrote: > > > Rick, > >Way back in my electronics days we could buy aluminium solder. I can't > >recall ever using it but I remember it created quite a bit of interest in > >the electronic world when it was marketed. Maybe it's still available? > >Jim > >Thanks Jim. I had some "aluminum solder" a few years ago, and tried to use it >on various aluminum objects with no success. Of course this was probably > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > Rick, there also is a cold solder which runs onto matal like glue. There might be one for aluminium Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 12:27:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA14808 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:35:59 -0800 Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14642 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:35:33 -0800 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id NAA26834 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:31:15 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA818112140 Mon, 04 Dec 95 13:22:20 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 13:22:20 From: "reim" Encoding: 1414 Text Message-Id: <9511048181.AA818112140@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re: fnrg: More on EM waves. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Maybe I have missed something here or I was sleeping that day in college but I don't recall that a magnetic field is a composite wave. If so then what are the fields that make up this composite or tell me where I can read more about this bob reim reim@advantor.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: fnrg: More on EM waves. Author: magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list at ~Internet Date: 12/4/95 10:53 AM Bill Beaty wrote" "One thing I recall from intro physics and EM waves: the change in E causes the change in M. Or more conventionally, the M field is the second derivative of the E field. So, rather than E causing M and vise versa, maybe we should look at this as if both are connected to a third wave which *IS* 90deg out of phase with both of them. So, what is the third wave? What field is the *first* derivative of either E or M field?" It's not that simple, the magnetic field itself in not a fundemental field, but is a composite wave. As of Aharnov-Bohm, the A field is quite real and proven, so we can no longer treat the magnetic field as a fundemental field, as has been done in the past. Also, remember a transmission line only approximates a purly resistive circuit, it still has distributed inductance and capacitance. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 05:40:40 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA10123 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:39:59 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA10103 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:39:55 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA21859; Mon, 4 Dec 95 08:29:20 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Mon, 4 Dec 95 8:39:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 8:34:21 EST Message-Id: <4F06+RXjkkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: EM waves. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Indeed this should be checked again, current and voltage "are" in phase in a purely resistive circuit, but as space itself has electrical properties, any electromagnetic system wuth physical extent cannot be purly resistive. A EM wave in free space does not behave as a purely resistive circuit. All AC circuits have a power factor, and a degree of phase error between voltage and current. ALso, neither the electric or magnetic fields can be restricted to a single plane as is shown in the classical diagram refered to. The waves are seperated spatio-temporaly, not just spatialy. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 14:24:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA11035 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:22:33 -0800 Received: from procyon.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (procyon.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [134.87.115.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA10718 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:21:50 -0800 Received: from pmcmac.pmc-sierra.bc.ca by procyon.pmc-sierra.bc.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA052785625; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:20:25 -0800 Message-Id: Date: 4 Dec 1995 14:26:34 U From: "carr" Subject: fnrg: Re: fnrg- Patents and copyr To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.2 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Reply to: RE>>fnrg: Patents and copyrights. I have a small beef with section 3. Patents are possible after "public release" only if the patent application is filed within 1 year of the "public release". This means the a company with a patentable idea may communicate the idea to someone as long as a non-disclosure agreement has been signed. Because of the non-disclosure agreement, the patent is not deemed to be publicly disclosed. The timer only starts if someone, who is not under a non-disclosure agreement, is told the secret. Now, I am not a lawyer, but I just filed two patents in the last three months for my company and in each case, the lawyers have made it very clear about this detail. (This rule applies in both Canada and the U.S.). Larrie. --- 3. Patents are not possible once you have communicated the essence of the concept to anyone except a close family member, partner, employee, or advisor. Certainly any invention posted on the internet, even if not much is disclosed about it, IS NO LONGER PATENTABLE. The essence of the patent concept is to encourage inventors to communicate about their ideas by permitting them to register the idea. But, to establish that it is their idea, the idea could not be communicated before it was registered. If you can prove that an idea was communicated before the patent application was made, you can kill the patent, at any time, even retroactively. Unfortunately the system no longer works very well in today's economic system and it has been perverted by big corporations who can afford to churn patent applications by the dozens. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 07:05:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA00296 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:05:32 -0800 Received: from ix6.ix.netcom.com (ix6.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA00278 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:05:27 -0800 Received: from by ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id HAA29477; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:04:03 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:04:03 -0800 Message-Id: <199512041504.HAA29477@ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: EM waves. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >Indeed this should be checked again, current and voltage "are" in phase in >a purely resistive circuit, but as space itself has electrical properties, >any electromagnetic system wuth physical extent cannot be purly resistive. > Would you care to share what the electrical properties of space are that cause this E-M phase shifting in a wave, appearantly supply energy to the EM wave and keep it moving at c? RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 12:54:23 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06100 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:53:54 -0800 Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA06055 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:53:46 -0800 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id PAA07516 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:30:54 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA818119382 Mon, 04 Dec 95 15:23:02 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 15:23:02 From: "reim" Encoding: 1862 Text Message-Id: <9511048181.AA818119382@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re[2]: fnrg: ...no subject... Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have to agree, I don't have a problem with it either, it's just how it works. When I was in engineering school I don't recall my professors teaching us the water pressure relationship to current flow. Logically it may not make any sense except with a deeper understanding of the subject matter. After all would logic tell you that the faster you move the slower your time reference is. bob reim reim@advantor.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: fnrg: ...no subject... Author: magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list at ~Internet Date: 12/4/95 3:02 PM >Actually, in an electromagnetic wave, the electric and magnetic waves are >at 90 degrees to each other, so that maximum magnetic field point coincides >with minimum electrical field intensity. > >Think of the current and the voltage relationships, magnetic flux is >directly proportional to the current flow alone. > >Look at the zero crossing of the E field, and note that maximum current >happens at minimum "pressure", does this seem at all odd? If so, your >close to the heart of the matter. Maximum flow at minimum pressure? Is >this how we teach the "voltage is pressure" model, because it's got a real >problem at the zero crossing of the E field. > I don't see what the problem is. This is the same situation as in a simple LC ocillator. When the cap has discharged into the coil E is at 0 and M is at it's maximum. When M is at 0 the cap is charged to it's max. E and M are 90 degrees out of phase since the current and voltage are related through derivatives - not directly proportional. Whenever current is at a maximum, "pressure" will be at a minimum in the ocillator and in the propagating EM wave. -IB Browning From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 07:58:45 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA15702 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:58:23 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA15659 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:58:16 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA24091; Mon, 4 Dec 95 10:47:39 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Mon, 4 Dec 95 10:57:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 10:53:41 EST Message-Id: <4F06+3alkkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: More on EM waves. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty wrote" "One thing I recall from intro physics and EM waves: the change in E causes the change in M. Or more conventionally, the M field is the second derivative of the E field. So, rather than E causing M and vise versa, maybe we should look at this as if both are connected to a third wave which *IS* 90deg out of phase with both of them. So, what is the third wave? What field is the *first* derivative of either E or M field?" It's not that simple, the magnetic field itself in not a fundemental field, but is a composite wave. As of Aharnov-Bohm, the A field is quite real and proven, so we can no longer treat the magnetic field as a fundemental field, as has been done in the past. Also, remember a transmission line only approximates a purly resistive circuit, it still has distributed inductance and capacitance. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 10:12:25 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA03136 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:09:57 -0800 Received: from bob.indirect.com (root@bob.indirect.com [165.247.1.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA03031 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:09:33 -0800 Received: from 165.247.24.179 (s179.phxslip4.indirect.com [165.247.24.179]) by bob.indirect.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA28535 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:08:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:08:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199512041808.LAA28535@bob.indirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Reed Huish Subject: Re: fnrg: Troy Reed? To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: >I just noticed reedh@indirect.com on the 'who' list. Is this Troy Reed, >the inventor of the Reed electric vehicle? > No such luck Bill. I am a entrepreneur funding a few different new energy projects. Don't worry, I'll let you know when I have something. I'm not going to create any smoke until I can feel the fire. - Reed Huish. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 15:36:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA10078 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:36:02 -0800 Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA09983 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:35:44 -0800 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id SAA26214 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:21:06 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA818129707 Mon, 04 Dec 95 18:15:07 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 18:15:07 From: "reim" Encoding: 4293 Text Message-Id: <9511048181.AA818129707@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re[2]: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I and other people in this group have been working on the anti gravity concept ie. T.T. Brown work. What do you know about this topic since you said you know of people working in this field. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Author: magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list at ~Internet Date: 12/4/95 5:45 PM let me offer a few observations about the posts I have been reading about copyrights and patents. 1. Lawyers are in the business of creating work for themselves. Avoid lawyers. Use informed common sense. 2. Lawyers DO NOT OFFER SOUND TECHNICAL OR BUSINESS ADVICE. They offer only legal advice, and in the confused legal environment which late 20th century liberalism has incalcated, all legal advice is confused. That is to say, for the most part, legal principles have become lost in a swamp of relativism. Hence, lawyers will tell you that practically anything is ill-advised. You can't live like that! 2. The posts on this listserv have not accurately grasped the nature of patents and copyrights. Patents are very dangerous, true, but they are enforceable, no matter what, IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO ENFORCE THEM. There is no relativism involved. You don't have to have made the patent concept into a commercial product. You can collect a reasonable royalty, not matter what. BUT, you have to ACTIVELY ENFORCE them by using the courts, which does mean lawyers. The legal system is inclined to lean in the favor of inventors, BUT THE BURDON OF PROOF in on the inventor trying to do the enforcement. It may take you five or more years to win the arguement. 3. Patents are not possible once you have communicated the essence of the concept to anyone except a close family member, partner, employee, or advisor. Certainly any invention posted on the internet, even if not much is disclosed about it, IS NO LONGER PATENTABLE. The essence of the patent concept is to encourage inventors to communicate about their ideas by permitting them to register the idea. But, to establish that it is their idea, the idea could not be communicated before it was registered. If you can prove that an idea was communicated before the patent application was made, you can kill the patent, at any time, even retroactively. Unfortunately the system no longer works very well in today's economic system and it has been perverted by big corporations who can afford to churn patent applications by the dozens. 4. Copyright has a distinct advantage in enforcement, especially vis a vis the internet. By definition it is interstate and international. Thus you can get the feds involved. The software people have made copyright violation a criminal offense. You can call the FBI if you have your copyright infringed. People who violate copyright usually have a lot of violations in their closet, it is a mental attitude, a habit of practice. Having the FBI come calling is really gonna upset a copyright violater. 5. The best bet of all is to develop a proof of concept which you know you can sell to a specific target of a small number of big corporations. With a proof of concept, you can go directly to the corporation, and without telling them a damn thing about how it works, get them to the table for money. This will only work if you have a clear economic advantage and a clearly demonstrable proof of concept, the workings of which are not obvious and you can more or less conceal. I know people in the cold fusion and anti-grav fields who are going to use this strategy within the next 24 months. Once the BIG international corporation has signed on, they will do all of the patenting for you. The only trick you need to make this work is a progressive performance contract with the corporation. If they bury it, they lose their rights. Oh, also make sure that you co-own any patent improvements they make on top of your patents. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 11:02:51 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA25246 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:02:09 -0800 Received: from WVLINK.MPL.COM (WVLINK.MPL.COM [198.77.4.68]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA25167 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:01:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:01:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199512041901.LAA25167@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from SLIP3.MPL.COM by WVLINK.MPL.COM (MX V4.0 VAX) with SMTP; Sat, 02 Dec 1995 12:05:43 EST X-Sender: browning_ib@198.77.4.68 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: browning_ib@wvlink.mpl.com (IB Browning) Subject: Re: fnrg: ...no subject... Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Actually, in an electromagnetic wave, the electric and magnetic waves are >at 90 degrees to each other, so that maximum magnetic field point coincides >with minimum electrical field intensity. > >Think of the current and the voltage relationships, magnetic flux is >directly proportional to the current flow alone. > >Look at the zero crossing of the E field, and note that maximum current >happens at minimum "pressure", does this seem at all odd? If so, your >close to the heart of the matter. Maximum flow at minimum pressure? Is >this how we teach the "voltage is pressure" model, because it's got a real >problem at the zero crossing of the E field. > I don't see what the problem is. This is the same situation as in a simple LC ocillator. When the cap has discharged into the coil E is at 0 and M is at it's maximum. When M is at 0 the cap is charged to it's max. E and M are 90 degrees out of phase since the current and voltage are related through derivatives - not directly proportional. Whenever current is at a maximum, "pressure" will be at a minimum in the ocillator and in the propagating EM wave. -IB Browning From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 12:33:55 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA28341 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:33:37 -0800 Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA28182 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:33:12 -0800 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 19:10:15 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <12650@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: A few questions X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 13 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One of the windings on the transformer will be for the heater of the magnetron. They have a central electron emitting heater just like any other hot-cathode vacuum tube. I don't think that you can get tunable magnetrons, though I may be wrong. The magnetron has a number of resonant cavities and they would all have to have their dimensions changed together. Looking at the path that the electrons take in passing from the heater to the anode cavities makes me wonder if a (very small) amount of tuning might be possible by altering the magnetic field. It would only be a tiny variation though if it was possible at all. -- Chris Morriss From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 13:48:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA23477 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:38:59 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA23271 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:38:25 -0800 Received: from s1c0p3.aa.net (s1c0p3.aa.net [204.157.220.167]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA06765 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:37:16 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:37:16 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512042137.NAA06765@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: mwm@aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: let me offer a few observations about the posts I have been reading about copyrights and patents. 1. Lawyers are in the business of creating work for themselves. Avoid lawyers. Use informed common sense. 2. Lawyers DO NOT OFFER SOUND TECHNICAL OR BUSINESS ADVICE. They offer only legal advice, and in the confused legal environment which late 20th century liberalism has incalcated, all legal advice is confused. That is to say, for the most part, legal principles have become lost in a swamp of relativism. Hence, lawyers will tell you that practically anything is ill-advised. You can't live like that! 2. The posts on this listserv have not accurately grasped the nature of patents and copyrights. Patents are very dangerous, true, but they are enforceable, no matter what, IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO ENFORCE THEM. There is no relativism involved. You don't have to have made the patent concept into a commercial product. You can collect a reasonable royalty, not matter what. BUT, you have to ACTIVELY ENFORCE them by using the courts, which does mean lawyers. The legal system is inclined to lean in the favor of inventors, BUT THE BURDON OF PROOF in on the inventor trying to do the enforcement. It may take you five or more years to win the arguement. 3. Patents are not possible once you have communicated the essence of the concept to anyone except a close family member, partner, employee, or advisor. Certainly any invention posted on the internet, even if not much is disclosed about it, IS NO LONGER PATENTABLE. The essence of the patent concept is to encourage inventors to communicate about their ideas by permitting them to register the idea. But, to establish that it is their idea, the idea could not be communicated before it was registered. If you can prove that an idea was communicated before the patent application was made, you can kill the patent, at any time, even retroactively. Unfortunately the system no longer works very well in today's economic system and it has been perverted by big corporations who can afford to churn patent applications by the dozens. 4. Copyright has a distinct advantage in enforcement, especially vis a vis the internet. By definition it is interstate and international. Thus you can get the feds involved. The software people have made copyright violation a criminal offense. You can call the FBI if you have your copyright infringed. People who violate copyright usually have a lot of violations in their closet, it is a mental attitude, a habit of practice. Having the FBI come calling is really gonna upset a copyright violater. 5. The best bet of all is to develop a proof of concept which you know you can sell to a specific target of a small number of big corporations. With a proof of concept, you can go directly to the corporation, and without telling them a damn thing about how it works, get them to the table for money. This will only work if you have a clear economic advantage and a clearly demonstrable proof of concept, the workings of which are not obvious and you can more or less conceal. I know people in the cold fusion and anti-grav fields who are going to use this strategy within the next 24 months. Once the BIG international corporation has signed on, they will do all of the patenting for you. The only trick you need to make this work is a progressive performance contract with the corporation. If they bury it, they lose their rights. Oh, also make sure that you co-own any patent improvements they make on top of your patents. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 15:45:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA13606 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:45:05 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA13533 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:44:53 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA02890; Mon, 4 Dec 95 18:33:56 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Mon, 4 Dec 95 18:44:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 17:09:26 EST Message-Id: <4F06+K4rkkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Scalar debate, round 2. (long) X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In debating the validity of scalar theory, Gary Hawkins makes several more points in his post I must address: Gary Hawkins wrote : "But how does one build for something that (untill your device perhaps) there is no way of measuring or detecting?" While I will not defend Mr. Bearden, or his referances, there are descriptions of scalar detectors in his works. You may not have found them, or recognised them as such, but they are in fact there. For example, the DeFaretto scalar detector design. An associate of yours may have checked some referances, and not found whatever was being looked for, but none the less, the material (detector designs) does exist. I will say that Mr. Bearden does make some things less than clear though. There is far more emperical evidence for scalars than against, the weight of emperical evidence must be taken into account. Ther are ways to detect the presence of scalar signals, that fact that you have not found this material does not imply that it does not exist however. "From my understanding of it, a drinking glass sitting on a table is generating scalar energy, because there is a downward force on the table, and an equivalent force by the material in the table itself, 180 degrees out of phase, but no movement, just tension" Your understanding is deeply flawed here. Indeed the glass exerts a force on the table, and the tabel on the glass, but there is an exchange of particles between the two objects, so the potential is realized. This is standard quantum electrodynamics. It is a static condition, with fully realized forces altering the paths of moving particles with mass, this is why the glass does not fall through the table. There is more than enough room in atomic matter for it to do so. "That means a nine volt battery has scalar energy. Last time I checked it was called voltage. There is a force trying to push electrons, and an equally strong force trying to resist their movement (air). Connect up a wire and poof goes your scalar energy." This is not quite correct. Between the two terminals of the batter an electrostatic gradiant exists. While this is closely realted to a scalar situation, it does not describe a true scalar. First, the force acting to move the electrons is their mutual repulsion, by the law of like chages repelling. No "force" per se resists this movement, but their movement is impeaded by the high resistance between the terminals. Some leakage current does however flow. Even of this leakage current were totaly stopped, we still would not have a scalar, as the virtual particle flux of the vaccum causes the electrons to move chaoticaly, so there is mass in motion. What we do have is a potential differance, measured as a vector voltage. We do not have two equal forces in opposition. You have shown nothing that disproves scalar theory here. If you connect a wire, indeed the potential differance "goes poof", as that potential is realized as a current flow. This still has noting to do with a scalar however. "If a scalar wave is the result of two waves 180 degrees out of phase, then I can generate those easily from an ordinary stereo by reversing the wires on one channel, setting it to mono, and piping a frequancy in." Almost, you still must sum these two vectors in opposition. If you were to connect the outputs of the stereo, you would simply pop the final output transistors. Again, it's not quite that simple, but you are closer this time. You are missing the device which sums these vectors to zero. "Scalar schmalar" Your failure to grasp the theory here does not impune the theory, but it does serve to cause those who do to wonder if they should bother to try to help your level of understanding. "The one who claim to understand quantum mechanics are just groping in the dark, making it up as they go along" This is totaly absurd. Quantum electrodynamics is the most tested and proven "theory" in history, and has been proven accurate to parts per trillion. Yet you dismiss this by whim alone, for your lack of understanding of the theory must imply that the theory has no merrit. By what right can you dismiss the devices proven to work in accord to that same theory, like thoses transistors in the stereo? Or Light emitting diodes, quantum well devices, and thousands of other modern electronic componets? Or non-linear optical componetns, accurate predictions of physical processes, etc? Your lack of understanding does not justify such dogma, unless you have any evidence against quantum theory that is. Got any evidence for this possition, or is it only dogma? The hard cold facts are that these devices not only operate, but support the theories you attempt to dismiss by your whim alone. Emperical evidence proves the situation to be quite different in reality. In relation to the scalar component of transvers vs. longitudinal waves, the scalar component is in fact the tension of the medium itself. Notice how this scalar tension propogates along the medium? What, a scalar wave? Oh no, that just cannot be, for I just do not understand! I refered to the Aharnov-Bohm effect as evidence, but rather than persue this yourself, you become one of those "too lazy" to check the referances. For the benifit of all, I'll describe the experiment. A small permanent magnet was coated in a superconductor, totally sheilding the magnetic field, with no leakage what so ever. An electron wave passing through the space that would have been effected by that magnets field is shifted in phase. In this case, the scalar magnetic potential, or A field, is altering the phase of the electron wave function. This A field cannot be sheilded. While not a scalar wave, it is a form of scalar potential, and has real effects. If that magnet were modulated, we would get a modulation of the external A field that is detectable. This is the magnetic case of the Aharnov-Bohm effect, and it proves that the magnetic field is not fundemental. It proves that the "A field" is not just a mathimatical construct in Maxwells equations as had been thought for years, but has physical effects. There is also an electrostatic version as well, also well proven. The purpose of my refering to this effect was not to impress, but to educate. It did neither sadly, it just consumed breath and bandwidth. So, while you may try to dismiss quantum theory in a whim, you cannot dismiss the quite real evidence supporting these theories, nor can you sway opinions based on reasond evaluation of emperical evidence. If your going to debunk on this level, why not take ot to sci.skeptic? I think it's out of place on this forum. Rational discussion on the other hand is invited. Indeed the term "zero point" takes on new levels of meaning here. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 15:33:39 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA09055 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:33:30 -0800 Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA09013 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:33:23 -0800 Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01668 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:39:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:39:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199512042339.SAA01668@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: Phase relation in free space Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings : There seems to be much confusion here regarding the phase relation of B & E in a free space TEM wave. A travelling wave in a transmission line ( such as coax cable or parallel plate ) has both electric and magnetic fields in phase. The field patterns are orthagonal but the actual waves are in phase. When you terminate a cable in a resistor of the cables charactersitic impedence, what you are doing is providing a nonreflective load to the cable, insuring the in phase condition of E & B. If the load is mismatched, a reflection arises travelling back down the line. The resulting summation of forward and reverse waves creates a phase shift. Suffice it to say, free space can be modelled as a collection of parallel plate transmission lines ( see for example Krauss on Electromagnetics section 10-3 ). But hey, I cut my teeth making transmission line circuits, and I can tell you from experience that if you take a CT2 and Voltage probe and put them at the same place on the line you will see an in phase condition, if the wave is travelling in only one direction. Perhaps the confusion is coming from Maxwells statement regarding the time rate of change of the E field being related to the spacial rate of change of the H field ( sorry, ascii just would not do justice to the equation, and I'm too lazy to try ). Another confusion may arise experimentally, when you are in the near field of a radiator. Because the radiator is large with respect to the wavelength, the volume of space about 2 wavelengths or so around the radiator will show interference effects ( ie E & B out of phase ). I am aware that quantum optics people refer to this as the storage field, but then everyone has their own pet terminology. To the gentleman who commented on the hydrodynamic analogy, you got the right idea there. RF engineering is just like plumbing. In fact, for a great mind expander, try H. Olsons book called Dynamical Analogies. He compares electrical, acoustical, and mechanical systems, and really primes the idea pump. This book will give you that gut level intuition about the functioning of AC circuits, by giving you conceptual models which can be directly experienced. Be Seeing you, K. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 16:04:59 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA20176 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:03:19 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA20072 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:02:59 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA03103; Mon, 4 Dec 95 18:51:33 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Mon, 4 Dec 95 19:01:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 18:44:27 EST Message-Id: <4F06+PTskkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: And yet more on EM waves! X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard Wayne Wall wrote: >In my original EM waves post I wrote and stand by: > >"In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are >_in phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. For referances, check any referance on EM theory you may have on hand, only in a purley resistive CIRCUIT are voltage and current in phase. Any inductance or capacitance will produce a phase differance. As free space has permiability and retentivity to magnetic and electric fields, and system with physical extent will have a phase shift. The purly resistve situation is theoretical only. It does not describe an EM wave propogating through free space, with it's known and measured electrical properties. While a well terminated transmission line might represent a resistive load, macroscopicaly only, to it's source of current, this load is never purly reisitive in practice. Nor is this the case along any component of the transmission line. As a referance, I consulted "Radar Circuit Analisis" a text produced by the US Air Force, no ISBN, no copyright. Air Force Manual AF-52B. An older, but excellent referance for practical applications of theory, not a theoretical textbook. Remember the old rules "voltage leads current and current leads voltage" for inductors and capacitors? You must perfrom vector operations on the impeadances of a composite system (having impeadances other than pure resistance) which all physical systems are. This however only describes circuit operation, I assume the discussion at hand refers to EM waves in free space. Or this, we need a good referacnce on antenna theory. I can provide this was well, I reccomend any of hte ARRL handbooks on the subject. Look at a dipole antenna, and describe the current and voltage relationships there. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 01:28:24 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA09701 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:28:18 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA09689 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:28:14 -0800 Message-Id: <199512050928.BAA09689@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 03:03:17 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Magnetron Tuning Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >the anode cavities makes me wonder if a (very small) amount of tuning >might be possible by altering the magnetic field. It would only be a tiny >variation though if it was possible at all. As in a Tesla Coil, detuned away from its natural resonance between primary and secondary, the output (energy) delivered to the environment will be diminished further and further as the optimum frequency in the magnetron is deviated from, if a way to alter it can be found. I've heard the oven space itself is tuned with the magnetron. Wonder what effect a large amount of food in that chamber has on the tuning situation. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA *** Give someone a little power, and watch them abuse it to the best of their ability. Sheesh, cynical or what. *** From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 02:10:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA15583 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:10:46 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA15570 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:10:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199512051010.CAA15570@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 03:46:09 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: High Voltage Effects Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >home-workshop experimenter to get a look at, but the difficulty seems to be in >isolating the effect from ionic wind and simple electrostatic propulsive >effects. Skeptics claim that those forces are all it ever was, but a few >reports indicate that they may be wrong. > >I want to know first hand. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > A note on an ion wind device I tested. Plans were sold out of the back of Popular Science in the early eighties. It was called the NIPD II, and was comprised of two rings of aluminum, one a little smaller than the other, and was supposed to be able to lift its own weight. It did not, but... Interestingly, they claimed that if you reverse the polarity of the dc high voltage applied that it would go down instead of up. Instead, it always goes toward the smaller ring, whatever the polarity, but with differing amounts of force. The key element appears to be the surface area of the two rings, along with their simple gridwork on each one. This is something that I do not yet fully understand. But it seems it could relate loosely to this simple experiment: Many of you on this list appear to have high voltage power supplies. If you use a dc supply, and connect its output to: 1. A wire 2. A metal plate ...where the wire is oriented perpendicular to the plate, and the two are separated by an air gap that is just greater than would allow an arc, you'll notice that reversing the polarity will require adjusting the gap. That is, with negative to the wire, the breakdown gap is quite a bit different than with positive to the wire. The sound of discharge is also quite different, and if you look at it in the dark, it looks quite a bit different also. It is similar to the effect of a "valve", that is, a vacuum tube rectifier. They are constructed with a wire in the center, surrounded by a cylinder as the other conductor. Electrons easily flow from the wire in the center, but not in toward the wire from the cylinder. So, applying ac, flow is primarily in one direction, creating pulsed dc. (The effect is accentuated by a heater in the center). And yet it was rather well filtered (smoothed) dc that I was applying to those rings, not ac, so the ion wind in only one direction no matter what the polarity baffles me a bit, with no time to try to nail it down better. Hopefully I'll have a photo scanned for all of you to look at soon. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA *** Give someone a little power, and watch them abuse it to the best of their ability. Sheesh, cynical or what. *** From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 02:29:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA18359 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:29:49 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA18348 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:29:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199512051029.CAA18348@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 04:05:24 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Oops Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just want to point out that the silly tagline I had on my signiture file about power was not intended to relate to anything on this group, or anyone of its people. It was regarding some co-workers. Nonsequitur. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 18:01:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA02090 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:01:09 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA02051 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:01:03 -0800 Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s3c1p3.aa.net [204.157.220.143]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA20575 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:56:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:56:55 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512050156.RAA20575@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: mwm@aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: fnrg: tre Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Ok, this may be wierd, but please listen. > >I have been on this list for about 3 weeks, but i'm having a little of a >hard time understanding stuff on it. that is because this listserv has some very sophisticated, highly educated people communicating about subjects which are indeed quite beyond the hobby and even beyond the conventional professional levels; they are sharing engineering ideas about how to evaluate some theoretical concepts or experiments; this is leading edge stuff; if no one is responding to you it is because they are busy with their experiments and haven't noticed you yet. I'm very intrested in tesla and his >work. I would like to build some of his stuff, but I don't know how. >Also there is one other problem, I want the project(s) that I do to be >not *TOO* dangers. no such thing. This may sound wimpy, but I enjoy my life. Will some >one please tell me the steps I should go take to make a tesla coil that >will not end my life? don't build one I know you can make coils that are so high voltage >and so low curent, that they will not hurt you. Tesla coils are relatively low current until shorted out by a human being coming just a little too close (you don't even have to touch it). Then for an instant, until you are fried or your heart is permanently shut down, they can be quite high current. >1) How do I start? get ahold of Extraordinary Science Magazine - lot's of printed information for the hobbyist about Tesla's technology - including how to order how to do it books. it may or may not be very easy to find in your locale. keep digging. if you really can't find it I will look up their email address and send it to you so that you can order one direct. >2) How much money will I need? (I'm poor.) a lot or a little, depending upon how you go at it. >3) Will I kill my self if I do one thing wrong? you definitely could kill yourself if you do the wrong thing >4) Do I realy want to be doing this? beats me. what turns you on? >5) How do I end? where ever it leads you at the moment. if you reaaly want hands on with high high voltage and/or basic plasma fields, Tesla is a good start. experimental science is extremely dangerous unless you are very certain about what you are doing with what. it simply needs experience and a few burned fingers to get you to that point. it sounds to me that you should experiment first with basic low voltage electrical circuits, via kits and breadboards, so that you get the familiarty you need with circuits and their energies. then try a simple Tesla circuit from plans you can get at Extraordinary Science. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 16:50:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA06684 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:49:18 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA06484 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:48:35 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id TAA07370 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:45:56 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512050045.TAA07370@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: fnrg: Please split up the free_energy list ! To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:45:55 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199512050000.BAA26377@ns.bbtt.com> from "harti@bbtt.com" at Dec 5, 95 01:00:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes make a new group! I'm not intrested in patents. -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 17:15:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA15955 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:15:32 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA15890 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:15:20 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id UAA08789 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:15:03 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512050115.UAA08789@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: fnrg: tre To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com (Wierd) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:15:00 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ok, this may be wierd, but please listen. I have been on this list for about 3 weeks, but i'm having a little of a hard time understanding stuff on it. I'm very intrested in tesla and his work. I would like to build some of his stuff, but I don't know how. Also there is one other problem, I want the project(s) that I do to be not *TOO* dangers. This may sound wimpy, but I enjoy my life. Will some one please tell me the steps I should go take to make a tesla coil that will not end my life? I know you can make coils that are so high voltage and so low curent, that they will not hurt you. Will someone please take the time to answer my humble questions? 1) How do I start? 2) How much money will I need? (I'm poor.) 3) Will I kill my self if I do one thing wrong? 4) Do I realy want to be doing this? 5) How do I end? If you would spend the time to answer this, I would be very happy. Andrew Cantino-- -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu Mon Dec 4 17:19:08 1995 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA17189 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:19:06 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id UAA09027 for bilb@eskimo.com; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:18:59 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512050118.UAA09027@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: page To: bilb@eskimo.com (William Beaty) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:18:58 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "William Beaty" at Nov 21, 95 03:03:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Status: RO X-Status: Ok, I found the link to my page in your account, thanks. Also, I want to say that this is great what you are doing for me! Thank you. Andrew -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 20:56:55 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA29194 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:54:03 -0800 Received: from ix2.ix.netcom.com (ix2.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA29160 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:53:58 -0800 Received: from by ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id UAA14020; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:53:03 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:53:03 -0800 Message-Id: <199512050453.UAA14020@ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: And yet more on EM waves! To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 12/4/95 Mr. Robert Shannon has been caught in, ah how shall we phrase it, an intellectual slight of hand in his description of EM waves. However, his posts survive for those interested in their review. In my original EM waves post I wrote on 11/30/95 I wrote: "In EM transverse transmission both the electric & magnetic wave are _in phase_, so there are points where both vanish together. But in this case, where is the energy stored for the wave to keep propagating? Could it appear in a hyperspatial demension OR perhaps transiently become longitudnal scalar transmission?" This observation clearly implies that not only are E and M in phase, but their zero crossing points are together. Shortly thereafter Mr. Shannon weighed in: "Actually, in an electromagnetic wave, the electric and magnetic waves are at 90 degrees to each other, so that maximum magnetic field point coincides with minimum electrical field intensity. Think of the current and the voltage relationships, magnetic flux is directly proportional to the current flow alone. Look at the zero crossing of the E field, and note that maximum current happens at minimum "pressure", does this seem at all odd? If so, your close to the heart of the matter. Maximum flow at minimum pressure? Is this how we teach the "voltage is pressure" model, because it's got a real problem at the zero crossing of the E field." Yes, he claims E an M are 90 degees to each other so, max M field COINCIDES with min E field intensity. He points out that at zero crossing of E field there is maximum current at minimun "pressure". I must answer his question in the affirmative - - Yes, it is odd because it's wrong. E and M are in phase and have zero crossing points togerther. Look at any first year physics text and you will see E and M have zero crossing points together and are in phase. On a roll, Mr. Shannon goes on to post: "After rechecking, I find that indeed the electric and magnetic fields are not in phase, but 90 degrees our of phase to each other. Maximum electric intensity with minimum magnetic intensity, and maximum magnetic intensity with minimum electric intensity. The "energy" of the wave oscillates between the electric and magnetic fields, and at no time are both of these zero at the same time as some have thought. Again, it's off that maximum "flow" (current) happends under minimum "pressure" (voltage)." Yes, indeed folks he RECHECKED it again and not to his surprise found that electric and magnetic fields are NOT in phase, but NINTY DEGREES out of phase to each other. **Yup, 90 degrees out of phase.** And, at NO TIME are both of these zero at the same time as some of US have thought. Then there is some explanation that the Energy of the wave oscillates back and forth between the E and M fields. Then when asked to cite his sources, Mr. Shannon realizes something is terribly wrong with his "90 degree out of phase" proclaimations. But, he's pontificating to a bunch of, know nothing, dumb asses and so why not slide one by? Besides he's snowing everyone with his "I'm the king of Scalars" routine and he has his credibility to protect. So, he reposted: "Indeed this should be checked again, current and voltage "are" in phase in a purely resistive circuit, but as space itself has electrical properties, any electromagnetic system wuth physical extent cannot be purly resistive. A EM wave in free space does not behave as a purely resistive circuit. All AC circuits have a power factor, and a degree of phase error between voltage and current. ALso, neither the electric or magnetic fields can be restricted to a single plane as is shown in the classical diagram refered to. The waves are seperated spatio-temporaly, not just spatialy." Catch the change? Now, he starts to qualify. Yea, current and voltage "are" in phase BUT only in a resistive circuit. He adds ad valorem factors such as electrical properties of space, etc. You know, it's now the outside factors that determine how an EM wave is propagated. No where now does he even mention E and M being 90 degrees out of phase. By the way, if they were really 90 degrees out of phase wouldn't they be either * totally * inductive or * totally * capacitive. We all make errors and mistakes, but the best policy is not to persist and compound them. I could review the merits of intellectual and philosophical honesty, credibility, Maxwell's equations, graphing ,etc., but I don't see the use. Please go back and follow this thread if you want to trace Mr. Shannon's clever slick Willy manipulation of this topic. Thanks, RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 18:02:03 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA02358 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:01:56 -0800 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA02297 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:01:45 -0800 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA13571; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:00:03 -0500 Date: 04 Dec 95 20:55:51 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Hello Message-ID: <951205015551_76216.2421_HHB65-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Malcolm - You wrote: >I've built a number of devices like this including Marx impulse >generators. What is the Biefeld-Brown (sp?) effect?" The Biefeld-Brown (spelling is correct) effect is described generally as the anomolous tendency of high voltage flat capacitors to display movement towards (usually) the positive pole. Effects are most often seen at potentials above 50kv. Thomas Townsend Brown held a few patents on devices using it. It's very controversial and is part of the subject of "electrogravitics", as some say that the BB effect is actually polar gravity peeking out from behind a high electrical gradient within a dielectric. Claims are that the mass of the dielectric is a factor in the magnitude of the effect as well as the capacitance and the gradient intensity. Should be fairly easy for the home-workshop experimenter to get a look at, but the difficulty seems to be in isolating the effect from ionic wind and simple electrostatic propulsive effects. Skeptics claim that those forces are all it ever was, but a few reports indicate that they may be wrong. I want to know first hand. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 22:33:06 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA29605 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:32:47 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA29512 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:32:31 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id WAA15563; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:32:27 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:32:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: UFO picture source? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 22:15:50 -700 From: sam smith To: billb@eskimo.com Roughly five or ten years ago, Larry King Live featured a special show on the subject of UFOs. During the show, LK dis- played a photograph which had been sent back from a Soviet Mars Probe which had been lost under more-than-suspicious circum- stances. The photo was crystal clear, with a Soviet telemetry signal strip along one edge, and showed a cylindrical spaceship "docked" endwise behind Phobos, so that Phobos occulted the entire vehicle from Earth viewpoint. The spaceship was (if I remember correctly) some 45 kilometers long X 8 kilometers in diameter. It was white, with various patchworks of black & grey, and looked very business-like. The Soviet probe was destroyed moments after sending back that photo. As it was destroyed, it was sending a second photo, which was received only half-completed. It showed a "ray" from the spaceship rather like a laser beam, which had red-washed the entire photo. End of transmission, end of Probe. This photo was characterized as the number one item for discussion on the agenda of a US/Soviet summit meeting either then just-held or just-scheduled. I havn't had much luck tracking down my tape of that show, or the original air-date to request a transcript. I've never seen any other reference to this extraordinary photo. Perhaps you have access to better research resources, or could pass this reference on to someone who can unearth a tape, a transcript, or some other copy or reference to the photo. It's very impressive. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 22:38:06 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA01033 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:37:59 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA01003 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:37:53 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id WAA15923; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:37:52 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:37:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: The mechanism of MagnetoGravitics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------- forwarded message ----------- From: pstowe@ix.netcom.com (Paul Stowe) Newsgroups: alt.alien.research Subject: The mechanism of MagnetoGravitics Date: 25 Oct 1995 20:14:10 GMT Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <46m5qi$ihp@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> MagnetoGravitics (MG) It has been known for a long period of time that rotating masses create magnetic fields (See the Blackett Effect). This effect is observed even in materials that are normally not magnetic (such as ceramics [as is evidenced by the spin induced magnetism seen in high rev, high temperature turbines]). Indeed, in Maxwell's definition of magnetism, this property is defined as a resultant effect of spin moment J. The question therefore is, how does a magnetic field evolve from just rotating a mass? Consider this analogy, we will envision a sphere rigidly mounted on a vertical shaft such that the shaft "spears" the central axis of the sphere up to its center. The material of the sphere consists of a rigid loosely spun fiber, such that a fluid may pass (under pressure) through the sphere. The central shaft is hollow, and is connected to a vacuum pump. When turned on, the vacuum pump draws air from the outside of the sphere into the central region by evacuating this region and exhausting this air elsewhere. When the pump is turned on, a pressure gradient will be generated symmetrically around the sphere. In all basic respects, this pressure gradient will mimic the properties of a gravitational field (thus we will call this, flow induced pseudo-gravity [FIPG]). We note that the pressure gradient is directed radially (inward towards the center) at this point. So what will happen to this inward flow if we spin our sphere? We find that by rotating the sphere, we have introduced rotational drag component in the inward flow of air (in General Relativity this drag effect is present in all rotational systems and is called reference frame dragging, or the Thirring/Lense Effect). Whereas for the case of the non-rotating FIPG the iso-pressure lines are radially symmetrical, for the rotational case these lines it takes on the classic shape of the mapped magnetic lines of force. We also note that the curl (pattern of rotation) is opposite at each pole, again consistent with magnetism. For the above discussion, the magnitude of each component (radial inward flow, verses, rotational flow) is strictly based on the induced pressure gradient, and the rate of rotation. We can clearly see that if we spin up (or down) our sphere at a very high rate, the inward flow will be temporarily diverted (swept up) into the rotationally induced motion due to viscous sweep on the boundary layers of the sphere. During this period, the interior region of the sphere will see a reduced inward flow in air and as a result the FIPG is reduced during this period. This is phenomena of magneto-gravitics. So does this discussion match any experimental evidence, consider the recent experiments carried out by E. Podkletnov, R. Nieminen,, and A.D. Levit (1992 to 1995). In these, the weight of several sample specimens was observed to demonstrate a reduction of 0.05 percent in the presence of a super-conducting disk (r = 72.5 mm, t = 6 mm) of high-Te material refrigerated by liquid helium and was levitating over a solenoid due to the Meissner effect. This reduction was increased to 0.3 percent by rotating the disk by use of lateral alternating magnetic fields. In another experiment, the configuration consisted of a super-conducting disk ring encased in a stainless steel cryostat filled with liquid helium, and sample specimens of different compositions placed at distance of 25 to 1000 mm from the cryostat. With the ring rotating at 5000 rpm, the measured weight loss was 0.3 to 0.5 percent. This effect was "increased" to 1.9 to 2.1 percent during the reduction of speed of the disk, induced by changing the current in the solenoid. It was noted by G. Modanese (MPI- PhT/95-44) that the effect appeared linked to induced gradients: "Moreover, the experimental results show, as mentioned, that there is no shielding when the disk is not levitating, but is placed over a fixed support, and that the effect IS STRONGER in the presence of rotation and when the rotation speed is decreased. We take these as indications that the shielding depends on THE GRADIENTS of the condensate, rather than on its absolute strength." A friend and colleague mentioned to me that this effect was also noted during the "pulsed" discharge of the capacitors into the magnetic coils of the Theta-Pinch Fusion reactor experiments conducted a Los Alamos in the 1970's. He stated that it was noted that the entire assembly would appear to "jump" in response to the pulsed high intensity magnetic fields induced in the toriodal assembly. He further stated that this was associated with an anomalous reduction in weight of the toroidal assembly during firings. If you find these posting of interest please let me know. Paul Stowe From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 16:04:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA19886 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:02:33 -0800 Received: from ns.bbtt.com (ns.bbtt.com [194.77.35.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA19657; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:01:53 -0800 From: harti@bbtt.com Received: from localhost (harti.bbtt.com [194.77.35.75]) by ns.bbtt.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA26377; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:00:12 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:00:12 +0100 Message-Id: <199512050000.BAA26377@ns.bbtt.com> X-Sender: harti@bbtt.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Please split up the free_energy list ! Cc: billb@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I have a proposal: Wouldn=B4t it be good to split the free energy list into separate subgroups= ? Due to the amount of emails reaching me every day, I just can=B4t keep up= with the imnportant onces. I personally don=B4t care about, if a patent can be issued or not. I think this topic could easily be discussed on a different subtopic list. What do you think ? I think in this free energy list we should concentrate on real free energy effects like Testatika, Griggs, Schaeffer=B4s Second Law violation, VTA, cold fusion and= so on, but not talking about how to register a patent ! What do you think. Let me know ! Regards, Stefan. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 11:02:57 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01654 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:02:32 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01558 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:02:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199512051902.LAA01558@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 12:43:08 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: High Voltage Effects Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks very much for that message. >Gary, could you explain the orientation of the aluminum rings in the plans for >that device? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI A friend is buying a scanner. I should be able to provide a picture of the ring device real soon, and that will be worth a thousand words or so. Also, I'll put the original drawings there if... If someone knows where the NIPD II came from, and might want to caution me about copyright, please do by private email at least. Thanks. Gary --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 11:03:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01663 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:02:37 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01604 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:02:23 -0800 Message-Id: <199512051902.LAA01604@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 12:43:13 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >post mentions that the E and M components vanish together meaning they >cross zero together. The question is, since both are field strength >vectors and vanish together, where has the energy been displaced? I What happens to the magnetic field in an inductor if the current is so strong that it explodes the wire, causing a sudden disconnect, such as in capacitive discharge? Someone I know who is extremely knowledgable about electronics has asked it a time or two. I suppose it just dissipates, but maybe something unusual. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 21:23:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA08365 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:23:37 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA08270 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:23:18 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA11611; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:22:00 -0500 Date: 05 Dec 95 00:20:44 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Aluminum foil connection Message-ID: <951205052043_76216.2421_HHB57-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RE: Soldering to aluminum foil for foil capacitors... Alan - You wrote: >Secondly, I've read about, but not tried, applying a drop of oil, >and scraping the surface, and soldering through the oil to prevent >oxidization. Hey, that tip of yours about soldering through oil was a good one, thanks! I tried it through some sulphury cutting oil with regular electronics solder and it kind of worked, but the solder didn't want to lay out flat at the edges, sort of beaded up as if cold, although I thought I let the area get rather hot. But it occured to me to try Liquid Wrench which is good 'n smelly and sort of caustic, and that really does work well. That's amazing. I just drop on a little bit (it's flammable) and get the area completely heated so the solder runs out nice and flat. After I get the puddle going I lay on the copper stranded wire with the fibers splayed out in a flat fan, and apply the gun tip over that as I add more solder. Makes a beautiful smooth edged bulge up and over the wire. Oh, and I got a little kit of real "aluminum solder" from an appliance repair shop for $13.00. It came with some fancy poisonous cadmium flux and a short coil of some very stiff structural aluminum solder for joining or repairing aluminum pipe or tube. It worked pretty well too, and I'm sure I'll use it someday if I need to solder some aluminum pipes. Thanks again Alan, and others who offered suggestions. Problem solved. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 22:41:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA01881 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:40:56 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA01858 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:40:52 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA00059 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:31:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id AAA28448; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:40:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:40:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512050640.AAA28448@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Scalar debate, round 2. (long) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Gary Hawkins wrote : > >>"But how does one build for something that (untill your device perhaps) >>there is no way of measuring or detecting?" > >While I will not defend Mr. Bearden, or his referances, there are >descriptions of scalar detectors in his works. You may not have found them, >or recognised them as such, but they are in fact there. For example, the >DeFaretto scalar detector design. An associate of yours may have checked >some referances, and not found whatever was being looked for, but none the >less, the material (detector designs) does exist. I will say that Mr. >Bearden does make some things less than clear though. > Mr. Bearden is pretty cryptic in some of his materials. I believe he stated in one paper that he was doing it intentionally, so that the average guy wouldn't be able to build destructive weapons using the technology he mentioned; I guess only the destructive geniuses would be able to do that! However, in "STAR WARS NOW! The Bohm-Aharonov Effect..." he did get a little more specific. He said a scalar wave could be produced by phase-locking 2 or more ordinary E-M waves 180 degrees apart at the same frequency (or over a very narrow bandwidth.) He also mentioned a scalar detector ... a superconducting magnet of 40,000 to 80,000 Gauss in a Faraday shield (to keep ordinary E-M out) with a wire nearby to act as a probe. The idea is the magnet has a field intense enough to curve spacetime enough to produce a transverse component of the longitudinal scalar wave, which is detected by the wire. As an additional note about the E-M wave discussion, the book CAUSALITY, ELECTROMAGNETIC INDUCTION AND GRAVITATION by Oleg D. Jefimenko has some interesting points. He states that an electric field does not cause a magnetic field, nor does a magnetic field cause an electric field; the two are both produced together by something else (read the book to find out what the something else is! <:-)> Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 00:09:21 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA23376 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:09:14 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA23369 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:09:11 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id AAA23553; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:09:11 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:09:10 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Flames on the EM band. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I see that it's time to update the rules for freenrg-list. Right now the only word on flamewars is this: > Rules: > > 1. Debunkery and believer/skeptic flamewars are frowned upon. Let's just > say that freenrg-list is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (having > maybe a bit of rational skepticism,) and let the skeptics leave in > disgust. To this I'm going to add: 2. "Flames" are not allowed here. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. If you feel you must trade insults with someone, be they blatant or subtle, please do it via private email. If you feel you've been insulted, don't just whip off a nasty response, instead complain to the group or to the moderator. Or better still, point out the problem to the originator, since the low-bandwidth character of email makes unintentional insults and other miscommunication fairly common. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 06:19:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA29417 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 06:19:28 -0800 Received: from unix1.utm.edu (unix1.utm.edu [192.239.144.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA29380 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 06:19:20 -0800 Received: by unix1.utm.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30692; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:19:24 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:14:15 -600 (CST) From: Mark Mansfield Subject: Re: fnrg: Please split up the free_energy list ! To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512050000.BAA26377@ns.bbtt.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 5 Dec 1995 harti@bbtt.com wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I have a proposal: >=20 > Wouldn=B4t it be good to split the free energy list into separate subgro= ups ? >=20 > Due to the amount of emails reaching me every day, I just can=B4t keep up= with > the imnportant > onces. > I personally don=B4t care about, if a patent can be issued or not. I thin= k > this topic could easily > be discussed on a different subtopic list. What do you think ? >=20 > I think in this free energy list we should concentrate on real free energ= y > effects like > Testatika, Griggs, Schaeffer=B4s Second Law violation, VTA, cold fusion a= nd so > on, but not > talking about how to register a patent ! >=20 >=20 > What do you think. Let me know ! >=20 > Regards, Stefan. >=20 >=20 Hello Stefan, Your comment to move the patent discussion to somewhere else is IMHO out of line here. Anyone who is working on F/E devices should know what is available to them if/when they get ready to release their device. This is a very hot subject at most all of the conferences which deal with this subject matter. If you had a design for a F/E device, what would be your first step in protecting that device from being taken away from you? This is some valuable information to anyone who is drawn to the Free Energy field, not just a idle conservation. Regards, Mark From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 05:36:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA18703 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 05:36:38 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA18678 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 05:36:29 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA08474; Tue, 5 Dec 95 08:25:58 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 5 Dec 95 8:36:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 8:33:50 EST Message-Id: <4F06+yc2lkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Tesla coil construction book. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those who have asked for a good referance on Tesla coil construction, I highly reccomend: "Modern Resonance Transformer Design", this is available from several distributor in this general subject area. I have found it to be one of the best on the subject. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 05:52:40 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA22480 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 05:52:38 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA22460 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 05:52:34 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA08659; Tue, 5 Dec 95 08:42:03 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 5 Dec 95 8:52:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 8:45:10 EST Message-Id: <4F06+an2lkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A There have been ongoing discussions of both scalar and electromagnetic waves. Both of these discussions are currently envolved in matters that will be addressed in this post. Both the phase angle of current and voltage as well as some evidence for "unusual electromagnetic phenomena" are included. On the subject of EM waves, we must be careful to make sure we know if we are discusing free waves in space or in a circuit I'll take all my referances from one "good book". Referance: The Radio Amateur's Handbook, 44th edition 1967. The standard manual of amateur radio communication. Published by the American Radio Relay League. On page 32 we find: "when an alternating voltage is applied to a resistance, the current flows in step with the current. In other words, the voltage and current are in phase. This is true at any frequeny if the resistance is "pure" - that is, is free from the reactive effects discussed in the next section. Practically, it is difficult to obtain a purely resistive circuit at radio frequencies, because the reactive effects become more pronounced as the frequency is increased. In a purely resistive circuit, or for purely resistive parts of circuits, Ohm's law is just as valid for A.C. of any frequency as it is for D.C." On reading page 33, We recall that in an inductor, the current lags the applied voltage by 90 degrees, and that in a capacitor, the current leads the voltage by 90 degrees. If we apply an AC voltage to a circuit with both inductance and capacitance, we must now introduce the concept of reactive power. On page 35 we find: For a series circuit, "...the voltage drop in the inductor is larger than the voltage applied to the circuit. This might seem to bean impossible condition, but it is not. The explanation is that while energy is being stored in the inductors magnetic field, energy is being returned from the capacitors electric field, and vice versa. This stored energy is responsible for the fact that the voltage across the reactances in series can be larger than the voltage applied to them. In a resistance the flow of current causes heating and power loss equal to (I^2)R. The power in a reactance is equal to (I^2)X, but this is not a "loss"; it is simply power that is transfered back and forth between the field and the circuit but not used up in heating anything. To distinguish this "nondissipated" power from the power which isactually consumed, the reactive power is called the volt-ampere-reactive, or var, instead of the watt. Reactive power is sometimes called "wattless"` power." Ohm's law cannot be applied as in DC circuits. No heat is produced by reactive power, therefore it is not resistive in nature. As the capacitor can be isolated from the inductor, sheilded to it's field, it is therefore not electromagnetic either. Since it produced no heat is the non ideal components, this should not be too hard to beleive, there is evidence for this after all. The power factor of a circuit shows the difference in normal and reactive power levels. This can reach very high levels in practice, over 60% in a realistic situation shown on page 37. It may be driver much higher still. We need to point out that a non sinusoidal wave is applied to a reactance, all bets are off as far as the current to voltage phase and reactive power levels. This is why high risetime RF spikes, as produced by Tesla coils for example, are so effective in esoteric applications. Now, if we wish to think of EM waves in a transmission line, we must remember that in practice, a source never meets a purely resistive load, and there is a standing wave ratio present. In driving a dipole or complex antenna, we will find a SWR from about 1.5 : 1 down to about 1.1 : 1 at best. Any modulations will cause alterations of the reactive power levels in the antenna system or transmission line. While an infinte transmission line appears like a pure resistance, there are no infinite transmission lines. We must decide if we are discussing practice or theory here. Practical transmission lines only approach pure resistance. If a real transmission line is shorted, current and voltage are 90 degrees out again. If open, guess what, 90 degrees out the other way, just like we find in inductive and capacitive reactances. Only a perfect match keeps voltage and current in phase. Quite difficult in practice. In a dipole antenna, there is a mismatch at the antenna to space interface. The current and voltage on an antenna at resonance or a even harmonic never has the voltage and current in phase. This tells us something about the free space wave system as well. There are many excellent diagrams that show this throughout the chapter on antenna theory. More over, it can be seen to be the case empericaly. If the original intent of the statement is that voltage and current are always in phase, as it appeared to be, then I must still disagree. If we are discussing theory only, then I might agree. If we are discussing practical situations, then I must disagree. It is not clear if we are discussing a circuit or free space waves, nor if we are discussing theory only or practical applications. For these reasons, I strongly prefer to restrict this sort of discussion to specific, and real conditions, so that there is always the impartial judge of experimental evidence, and no possibility of confusion about the situation being discussed. "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 08:23:57 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA05961 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:23:27 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA05806 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:23:08 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id IAA01739; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:22:58 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:22:57 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. In-Reply-To: <4F06+an2lkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: ... > While an infinte transmission line appears like a pure resistance, there > are > no infinite transmission lines. We must decide if we are discussing > practice > or theory here. Practical transmission lines only approach pure > resistance. ... What if I say it this way: On an ideal transmission line the e and b fields (and the v and the i) are in phase, they are not at 90deg phase. In a real-world transmission line with the proper resistive termination and very low SWR, the e and b fields are near zero phase. When an EM wave propagates in a perfect vacuum, the propagating e and b fields are in phase. In certain materials with "complex index of refraction," the phase between the e and b fields will not be zero. In any kind of oscillator containing L and C components, the phase of voltage and current is close to 90deg. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 09:58:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA07970 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:56:42 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA07840 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:56:18 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA12908; Tue, 5 Dec 95 12:32:56 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 5 Dec 95 12:43:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 12:29:28 EST Message-Id: <4F06+s36lkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fwd: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar wave s. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To better understand the free space wave system, we need to look at the phase relationships in the antenna system that "launched" the waves in the first place. If the current and voltage are in phase, you need to explain the mechanisim by which the wave propogates beyond the null point. In practice, this is not what happens. Antenna theory is often thought of as a black art, and is not my strong point. I'm not trying to claim superior knowlage here, but the current and voltage phase angles in a dipole are not in phase. A simple dipole has a 90 degree relationship. Complex antenna systems are usually made from dipole elements. It's best to refer back to a good referance here. We still need to be quite specific as to just what the conditions are. Are we discussing a wave propogating in free space or in a circuit? There are differances. The free space situation is described by antenna theory. If we collectivly choose a specific real world case, I will bring that case to the attention of an expert in antenna theory, and post his opinions on that situation. For transmission lines, even at low frequancies (60 hz) there is the need for power factor correction capacitors to correct for reactive effects. The transmission line is a collection of inductve and capacitive reactances, each with differing phase relationships. Other than that, i do accept the description below, for transmission lines near a perfect match only. In a near perfect match situation, we do not have standing waves in appreciable quantities, so we cannot measure the phase angles emperically without altering the matching. This is quite different than a free space wave system though. My apologies to everyone about the flames. I should have made the specifics of the discussion clear first. I should not have responed in kind as I did. ------------- Original Text From William Beaty , on 12/5/95 8:22 AM: To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: ... > While an infinte transmission line appears like a pure resistance, there > are > no infinite transmission lines. We must decide if we are discussing > practice > or theory here. Practical transmission lines only approach pure > resistance. ... What if I say it this way: On an ideal transmission line the e and b fields (and the v and the i) are in phase, they are not at 90deg phase. In a real-world transmission line with the proper resistive termination and very low SWR, the e and b fields are near zero phase. When an EM wave propagates in a perfect vacuum, the propagating e and b fields are in phase. In certain materials with "complex index of refraction," the phase between the e and b fields will not be zero. In any kind of oscillator containing L and C components, the phase of voltage and current is close to 90deg. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........, ............................ William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 10:19:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA15783 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:19:30 -0800 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15724 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:19:22 -0800 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA00348; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:17:58 -0500 Date: 05 Dec 95 13:16:46 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: High Voltage Effects Message-ID: <951205181645_76216.2421_HHB68-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gary - On 12/5 you wrote in reference to ionic forces between two ring-shaped electrodes of different size: >The key element appears to be the surface area of the two rings, >along with their simple gridwork on each one. This agrees with a brief from a report I've just seen recently on some experiments commissioned by the USAF on the Biefeld-Brown effect in the 80's. The report stated that experiments were run using electrodes of unequal size, and that a "residual force" was measured that could not be accounted for by ionic or electrostatic forces. The force was said to be in the direction _opposite_ that of the ionic wind for that setup, and that it was also in the direction opposite that reported by T. T. Brown, which would have been in that case towards the negative pole. Brown's force is usually reported to be towards the positive pole, but I can remember some discussion in connection with some of his patent papers that it is sometimes observed to point either way, which would certainly make sense in the case of laminated capacitors with their alternating polarity plates showing a net force across the device. I have a copy of the video Tom Valone sells which shows some of Brown's work at Bahanson labs in the late 50's. There's no sound or explanation on the tape as it's just footage pulled from home movies taken at the lab, but in quite a few scenes they seem to be working on a gizmo that looks like a pair of umbrellas on a common axis, like a small umbrella canopy opened just under the larger one. Other scenes show them going over chalk board diagrams of these things, but I haven't freeze framed and cleaned up any images for examination. One segment that's interesting is a shot of one of these umbrella devices with fine wires attached with noticable slack in them. The device is seen wobbling and levitating. Could have been ionic, but I don't know if it was in a vacuum chamber or not. I'm assuming here that ions in a vacuum environment from such a device wouldn't generate the thrust necessary to provide that much lift, but in air there would be from available moisture and other particles. Some scenes did appear to be showing some sort of chamber. I wish I had the details. Gary, could you explain the orientation of the aluminum rings in the plans for that device? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 10:46:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25186 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:45:15 -0800 Received: from ix2.ix.netcom.com (ix2.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA25068 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:44:47 -0800 Received: from by ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id KAA25167; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:41:43 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:41:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199512051841.KAA25167@ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 11/5/95 Mr. Shannon, Thank you for your clarifications. The AARL Handbook is a respected reference. Thank you for the review of AC and DC circuitry, various reactances and power relationships, etc. This may be a bit below the level of this group, but a good review never hurts. When we take a basic EM wave we have to start some where. My original post mentions that the E and M components vanish together meaning they cross zero together. The question is, since both are field strength vectors and vanish together, where has the energy been displaced? I think everyone appreciates Maxwell's E and B equations (B and E have identical wave form equations) and the fact that E and B are transverse waves perpendicular to the the direction of propagation and are in phase. Very simple question, just a plain EM wave propagating straight ahead, where is the energy at the zero crossing nodes? Your original posts indicate that E and M are 90 degrees out of phase. This is incorrect for a basic wave. A 90 degree phase shift would indicate pure inductance, would it not? Just as you point out that in the real world examples pure resistance is hard to come by, pure inductance as indicated by a 90 degree phase shift is impossible. Perhaps you might give some thought to your early posts. Any one may hang any outside influence or add reactive elements to circuits as we continuously do all the time. However, the thrust of the basic question is where does the energy of an EM wave go at zero crossing of E and M waves? RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 11:45:52 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17863 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:45:12 -0800 Received: from odo.msoe.edu (root@odo.msoe.edu [155.92.10.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17772 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:44:49 -0800 Received: by odo.msoe.edu; id AA02429; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:43:34 -0600 Received: from WARP/MAILQUEUE by warp.msoe.edu (Mercury 1.21); 5 Dec 95 13:43:22 GMT+6 Received: from MAILQUEUE by WARP (Mercury 1.21); 5 Dec 95 13:43:08 GMT+6 From: "Bane" Organization: Milwaukee School of Engineering To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:43:07 CST6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: fnrg: Please split up the free_energy list ! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-Id: <5A00CC1CA0@warp.msoe.edu> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: harti@bbtt.com > Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 01:00:12 +0100 > To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > Subject: fnrg: Please split up the free_energy list ! > Cc: billb@eskimo.com > Reply-to: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > Hi, > > I have a proposal: > > Wouldn=B4t it be good to split the free energy list into separate subgr= oups ? > > Due to the amount of emails reaching me every day, I just can=B4t keep u= p with > the imnportant > onces. > I personally don=B4t care about, if a patent can be issued or not. I thi= nk > this topic could easily > be discussed on a different subtopic list. What do you think ? > > I think in this free energy list we should concentrate on real free ener= gy > effects like > Testatika, Griggs, Schaeffer=B4s Second Law violation, VTA, cold fusion = and so > on, but not > talking about how to register a patent ! > > > What do you think. Let me know ! > > Regards, Stefan. > > I do agree i find some of this pattent stuff kind of noisy... i am more interested on the reserch end... how can i design somthing patentable if i don't fully understand it yet?? -ian geiser ian gieser . /_\ Your lack of passion is unforgiveable. Now I will be forced to beat you. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 12:04:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA24292 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:03:21 -0800 Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA24169 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:02:53 -0800 Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tN3XZ-001W34C; Tue, 5 Dec 95 14:00 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: Works of Dr Peter Graneau To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:00:37 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5046 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Peter Graneau has conducted experiments which he claims provide a demonstration of departure from classical electrodynamics at high currents levels. A force is found to exist in a direction longitudinal to current flow. Graneau ran a variety of types of experiments with a metal rod conductor immersed in a conductive fluid (mercury, or saline solution). With high amperage passing through the solution the metal rod is found to move in a longitudinal direction. There is no known explanation in conventional EM theory. This force may be similar to the force (v X B) that William Hooper finds in a noninductive coil. Or Graneau's longitudinal force may be a coupling between the electromagnetic and inertial/gravitational fields, which is predicted by some 5-D unified EM/gravitational theories -- predicted to result from a divergence of the electric current vector field. Graneau's experiments should be relatively easy to duplicate. I can find no record that any has ever done so. Graneau has also discovered apparently anomalous forces and effects in high energy electromechanical devices such as rail guns and induction motors. Books and articles by Peter Graneau: AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Ampere-Neumann electrodynamics of metals / Peter Graneau. PUBL.: Nonantuma, MA. : Hadronic Press, FORMAT: ix, 311 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. DATE: 1985 SUBJECT Metals--Electric properties--History. Free electron theory of metals--History. Electrodynamics--History. Electric conductors--History. ISBN: 0911767371 : AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Ampere force calculation for filament fusion experiments. In: Physics letters. a MAR 22 1993 v 174 n 5/6 Page 421 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Comment on "The motionally induced back-EMF in railguns". In: Physics letters: [part A] DEC 02 1991 v 160 n 5 Page 490 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): The Difference between Newtonian and Relativistic Forces. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1993 v 6 n 5 Page 491 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Electrodynamic momentum measurements. In: Journal of physics d: applied physics. DEC 01 1988 v 21 n 12 Page 1826 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Far-action versus contact action. In: Speculations in science and technology. 1990 v 13 n 3 Page 191 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Inertia's Riddle. Summary: Inertia has been misunderstood ever since the time of Galileo says Dr. Graneau. In: Electronics world + wireless world. JAN 01 1990 v 96 n 1647 Page 60 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Longitudinal forces in Ampere's wire-arc experiment. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 08 1989 v 137 n 3 Page 87 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Thompson, D.S. Morrill, S.L. TITLE(s): The motionally induced back-emf in railguns. In: Physics letters: [part A] APR 30 1990 v 145 n 8/9 Page 396 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Nonlocal Action in the Induction Motor. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1991 v 4 n 5 Page 499 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Graneau, N. TITLE(s): The role of Ampere forces in nuclear fusion. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 04 1992 v 165 n 1 Page 1 AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Underground power transmission : the science, technology, and economics of high voltage cables / Peter Graneau. PUBL.: New York : Wiley, FORMAT: x, 515 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. DATE: 1979 SUBJECT: Electric cables Electric power transmission Electric lines--Underground ISBN: 0471057576 ================================================================== From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:24:17 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA29843 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:20:04 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA29604 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:19:29 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id PAA11391 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:19:22 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512052019.PAA11391@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: fnrg: Re: Reality warping coil. (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:19:21 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded message: > From panderso@sleepy.ebtech.net Tue Dec 5 15:13:58 1995 > Message-Id: <199512052016.PAA21450@sleepy.ebtech.net> > Comments: Authenticated sender is > From: "Paul Anderson" > To: Multiple.recipients.of.a.fake.listserv@sleepy.ebtech.net > Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:07:45 +0000 > Subject: Re: Reality warping coil. > Reply-to: panderso@ebtech.net > Priority: normal > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) > > > > >I recently stumbled onto plans for a spacetime warping coil. I > >personally can't help but be skeptic. Could someone check it out, at > >http://zeta.cs.adfa.oz.au/KeelyNet/Gravity/gravity3.asc > >and tell me what they think? Is it worth trying to construct such a > >device, if it does not work, would the coil left over make a > >reasonable Tesla coil? TTYL! > > I had glanced at the file sometime ago but never really got too involved > with it, until the other day. First off, the patents of Thomas Townsend > Brown cited : > 1,974,483 Electrostatic Motor > 3,187,206 Electrokinetic Apparatus > > of which the author of the file supposedly based his research on (as I look > at it he based his research more on the Electrokinetic Apparatus and it > itself is very vague and I have my reservations concerning it) are extremly > abstract. The text file itself is VERY vague, not much on theory (atleast > in physics). The schematics in the file are weird and hard to understand if > you don't have a firm electronic understanding and a few hours to figure > them out. Now my opinions aside... > > Supposing this apparatus (Resonant Gravity Field Coil) does produces the > suggested results, it still doesn't say exactly what results it produces. > Haveing a M.S.Physics/B.S.Chemistry I have done a great deal of reading and > research on both general and special relativity involving space-time. I > remember reading a few (of the 30 or 40) books on space-time that suggested > different types of space-time within the continuem. I beleive one of the > texts was called "Flat and Curved Space-Times" but I am not absolutly positive. > In the books I remember something about types of space-time, 4 main types if > I'm correct: > > (i) Flat Space-Time (Normal) > (ii) Sphereical Space-Time (Planet or Stellar) > (iii) Parabolic Space-Time (Sing. or BH) > (iv) Hyperbolic Space-Time (rotating BH) > > I don't remember much about it (trying to find the book so I can refresh my > memory on it), but I do believe they said that there were 3 manipulations types: > > FUTURE TRAVEL (i) pushing manipulation > PRESENT TRAVEL (FTL) (ii) distorting manipulation > PAST TRAVEL (iii) pulling manipulation > > or something to that extent, if I find the book I will verify it later, with > my luck I probably have it all wrong. Anyway if the apparatus in the text > file does operate and produces the so-called RESONANT GRAVITY FIELD, what > type of manipulation is it. This is a very important piece of information > to know before initiating the appratus. > > I can't say whether this apparatus will work or not (I have the inclination, > funds and possibly the means to do this experiment but with my current > research at NASA I don't have the time). I did however check out the cites > to the "Aharanov-Brown Effect" and the "Biefield-Brown Effect" in the text > file with a book I have (called "Gauge Fields, Knots and Gravity" by John > Baez and Javier P. Muniain)and at a glace they coincided. There is a > possiblilty that an extremely HV HF Telsa Coil (basically all the apparatus > is) could produce the suggested effects, but I myself have never been brave > enough to attempt starting a induction coil of the specifications in the > text file. Who knows... > > One last thing I want to add, Einstein's theories of General and Special > Relativities are theories that only he himself will ever know completely. > What he pictured in his brilliant mind could never be put into words or onto > paper (he himself said). Einstein was a scientist not a artist, so > unfortunatly I don't believe we will ever have the whole picture as he had it... > > I lied one more last thing, as for the apparatus being a reasonable Tesla > Coil, I would say (I'm not expert mind you) yes, but if your going to > operate the apparatus I would suggest BEING EXTREMLY CAREFUL, who knows what > to expect from that thing, after all most science is found from mistake. > Unfortunatly I don't believe you'll live to learn from a mistake with the > apparatus above. > > Well enough for now... > > Tim Chandler > NASA-GSFC > tchand@slip.net > > Paul V. Anderson > panderso@ebtech.net > http://www2.ebtech.net/~panderso > PING - Packet Internet Groper > -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:19:15 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA05197 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:34:12 -0800 Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA05131 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:34:01 -0800 Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA27685 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:40:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:40:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199512052040.PAA27685@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: Zero Crossing Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings : Thanks for reposting the original question Mr. Hall, it seemed to get lost in the shuffle. I'll take a crack at it then... Why should there have to be energy at the zero crossing? Lets consider a case where this question might be applied. Several years ago, I designed a time domain reflectometry test bed to measure various properties of electrical components. As you may be aware, this involves the launching of a pulse through a transmission line at the component in question, and looking at the reflections. Much like a radar, but contained in the cable. Anyway, I used a somewhat nonstandard technique, inasmuch as I used pulses that were much shorter than the physical length of the cable. Consider this pulse as the first half cycle of your travelling wave in space. Of course, we know that the dielectric properties of space preclude a true half cycle pulse ( no net charge transfer ). But I think you see my point. There's no energy ahead of the pulse, or behind it. The energy is in the pulse ( IE where E & B are nonzero ). Following a positive pulse with a negative one creates the first cycle of travelling wave. Again, why should the zero crossing contain energy. More specifically, if .5LI^2 = 0 and .5CV^2 = 0, where else is the energy going to be? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't really understand the intent of the question. Is there some new theory which predicts energy at this point? Perhaps someone else can pick up the thread here. But, thanks again for bringing the focus back. K. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 00:28:37 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA02571 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:28:26 -0800 Received: from legend (legend.txdirect.net [204.57.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA02541 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:28:16 -0800 From: todd@legend.txdirect.net Received: from todd.txdirect.net (dynm01-043.txdirect.net) by legend (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA26025; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 02:22:26 -0600 Message-Id: <9512060822.AA26025@legend> X-Sender: todd@mail.txdirect.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:26:54 -0700 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Reality warping coil. (fwd) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm not sure where I read more about the device, but there was someone who wrote about it's effects. Which if I remember right included things like spontanious mass generation and anti-gravity. It also talked about someone working on one that did get the power cut off causing the person to get "sick" for about a week after it happen. Now I may have read this here or in some file from KeelyNet. I'll look for it when I have time. My question is what part did this device play in the Philadephia experiment? And this device came from T.T. Brown. Also just why would it have to be so big? I will agree that the wiring diagram is some what confusing. Todd From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:07:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA11182 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:06:48 -0800 Received: from ix13.ix.netcom.com (ix13.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA11120 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:06:37 -0800 Received: from by ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id OAA29630; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:04:03 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:04:03 -0800 Message-Id: <199512052204.OAA29630@ix13.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Magnifying Transmitter. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Whom It May Concern; I believe the original question was if the Magnifying Transmitter is indeed a free energy device? The patent wrapper states that the capacitor symbol in the primary, represents one of two types of generators (?). I think the patent would be more clear if two figures with two types of generators were drawn. The figure with just a capacitor drawn in place is somewhat misleading. Was it Tesla's intention to tune the Magnifying Transmitter to the point of replacing the generator in the primary with a capacitor? Can the xmitter be tuned to a terrestrial resonance (be it scalar or electromagnetic) such that a high voltage will form at the top in its' apparent power source-less configuration? I remember seeing a Tesla quote in a previous freenrg message that suggested a scalar energy could be trapped in the primary indefinitely; if this happened what would it's effect be? Dennis From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:46:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA24009 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:46:12 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA23972 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:46:06 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA19010; Tue, 5 Dec 95 17:35:30 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 5 Dec 95 17:45:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 17:29:22 EST Message-Id: <4F06+0TAlkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mr. Wall, You say that my referances may be a bit below the level of this group, but a good review never hurts. Indeed. Apparently my review faild to show several facts. Your original post refered to the coincident zero crossings of E and B fields, and you appear to accept that a pure resistive system is not possible, yet you again ask if "these vectors vanish together, where has the energy been displaced?" I fail to understand how you would accept that "pure" resistance is impractical, but that the zero crossings are still coincident. You further state that the concept of a phase difference is false in the case of a wave in propogation, but do not address any specifics of the situation you are discussing. Assuming a free space wave, the zero crossings are not coincident. You made referance in an eariler post that no referances had been given for my possition, yet you are in disagreement with the referances I have provided, but have given no referances to support your possition here. Do you have any such referances to cite? Apparently your question may not quite so simple after all. You further state that "A 90 degree pahse shift would indicate pure inductance, would it not?" It would not, it might represent "pure" inductance or capacitance depending on the pase between current leading or laging the voltage, not simply inductance alone. While I did make the point that a "pure" resistance is impractical, this is not the case for lumped inductance and capacitance, as superconductivity is quite real and proven. lossless reactive resonant circuits do exist, and are not prohibited by nature as purely resistive systems apparently are. For more common situations, I refer to my referance to shorted and open finite transmission lines, which present capacitive or inductive loads while real world "best matches" are not purely resistive. I specificaly made mention of this in my most recent post. This is a quite intesting dicotomy I do not claim to be able to explain, but it is emperical fact none the less. The thrust of your basic question becomes lost here. Assuming you are discussing free space waves, please provide any referances that show current and voltage being in phase. If you are refering to a specific real world situation, this should be made clear. If persueing Maxwells equations, I strongly reccomend you look into the work of Aharnov and Bohm on the so called Aharnov-bohm effect, which demonstrates that "A" is not a simple constant as has been assumed, but is an engineerable field with real effects. The magnetic field is not primary in nature. this forces to to reconcider the applications of the equations, especially where the term "A" has been dropped as having no physical significance. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:53:15 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA26000 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:53:13 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25970 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:53:09 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA19109; Tue, 5 Dec 95 17:42:34 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 5 Dec 95 17:52:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 17:45:58 EST Message-Id: <4F06+aiAlkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Sudden disconnect effects. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gary Hawkins asked: "What happens to the magnetic field in an inductor if the current is so strong that it explodes the wire, causing a sudden disconnect, such as in a capacitive discharge?" If the wire breaks for any reason, the field will collapse and induce a current in any nearby conductors, such as that of the now broken inductor. A large arc will form over the break, and release energy from the field. At least some of the energy that is. I cannot rule out other effects as well, but I am not aware of any special or exotic processes envolved here. The inductive kickback would be quite impressive if the field were intense enough to Zeemanize the conductor. A nuke level EMP would result at least. Definately a "dont try this at home" item. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 20:57:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA24509 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:19:57 -0800 Received: from blob.best.net (blob.best.net [204.156.128.88]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA23974 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:18:11 -0800 Received: from [205.149.162.154] (bailey.vip.best.com [205.149.162.154]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA02385; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:13:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:13:37 -0800 X-Sender: bailey@best.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: PGB@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey) Subject: Re[2]: fnrg: Patents and copyrights. Cc: mwm@aa.net Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > I and other people in this group have been working on the anti gravity > concept ie. T.T. Brown work. What do you know about this topic since > you said you know of people working in this field. > You should never apply for a US Patent when involved with advanced technology, unless you want to have a lot of problems in your life. Refer to: www.padrak.com/ine/ Instead - try a trade secret, or another country. Regards. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 21:23:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA24614 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:20:14 -0800 Received: from blob.best.net (blob.best.net [204.156.128.88]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA24024 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:18:24 -0800 Received: from [205.149.162.154] (bailey.vip.best.com [205.149.162.154]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA02433; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:13:43 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:13:43 -0800 X-Sender: bailey@best.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: PGB@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey) Subject: Re: fnrg: T.T. Brown FAQ Cc: atech@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I will bet Stan has all but 1 of those note books. What company? Thanks. So is the Dennis Lee that made friends with the Ventura County Sherrif? I am being serious. I would love that Dennmis to be on email! Let me know. >You wrote: > >> The definitive works would be Brown's hand written lab note >>books, of which there where at least six. Any one know where to get >>all six? > >Stan Deyo has them. His email is standeyo@iinet.net.au > >He also mentioned a company in the States that sells them. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 17:12:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA14708 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:12:38 -0800 Received: from blob.best.net (blob.best.net [204.156.128.88]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA14638 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:12:27 -0800 Received: from [205.149.162.154] (bailey.vip.best.com [205.149.162.154]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA03283 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:12:20 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:12:20 -0800 X-Sender: bailey@best.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: PGB@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey) Subject: fnrg: www.padrak.com/ine/ - Do - See Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Everybody look at this site. The Instutute for New Energy. Send me any good text articles to post. I need assistance in understanding how to best transfer pictures and photos and slides and videotape into *.GIF or *.JPG files for the www - while saving disk space. Thanks. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 18:24:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA10342 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:24:16 -0800 Received: from ix6.ix.netcom.com (ix6.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA10279 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:24:06 -0800 Received: from by ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id SAA26811; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:22:30 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:22:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199512060222.SAA26811@ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 12/5/95 Mr. Shannon: In the spirit of intellectual discourse that Mr. Baily suggests, I make the following observations. Even though they are solely intended for the purposes of debate, please don't take them personally. You wrote: > >Mr. Wall, > >You say that my referances may be a bit below the level of this group, >but a good review never hurts. Indeed. Apparently my review faild to >show several facts. Yes, I agree you are correct in your assessment that you failed to show several facts. However, you are in control of the facts you wish to publish. You must assume responsibility for your own facts or lack thereof. > >Your original post refered to the coincident zero crossings of E and B >fields, and you appear to accept that a pure resistive system is not >possible, yet you again ask if "these vectors vanish together, where >has the energy been displaced?" >I fail to understand how you would accept that "pure" resistance is >impractical, but that the zero crossings are still coincident. You >further state that the concept of a phase difference is false in the >case of a wave in propogation, but do not address any specifics of the >situation you are discussing. > Never have I said that I "accept that a pure resistive system is not possible" or " I accept that "pure" resistance is impractical". My post this morning stated: "Your original posts indicate that E and M are 90 degrees out of phase. This is incorrect for a basic wave. A 90 degree phase shift would indicate pure inductance, would it not? Just as you point out that in the real world examples pure resistance is hard to come by, pure inductance as indicated by a 90 degree phase shift is impossible. Perhaps you might give some thought to your early posts." I am contrasting YOUR assertion about pure resistance with that of a pure inductance at YOUR 90 degree phase shift. Please report the facts only, not what they appear to you. No where in any of my posts have I made this assertion. Please read them all. Again , I protest the deliberate twisting of the facts involved. The shift here appears to be more than 90 degrees. Just a little humor. > >Assuming a free space wave, the zero crossings are not coincident. >You made referance in an eariler post that no referances had been >given for my possition, yet you are in disagreement with the >referances I have provided, but have given no referances to support >your possition here. Do you have any such referances to cite? > Another faulty assumption on your part. If you make the statement - you support it. That's the way it usually works. I say again ARRL is a respected reference. But the other references you provided are a little obscure to say the least. I can't seem locate them. Please see your post: "As a referance, I consulted "Radar Circuit Analisis" a text produced by the US Air Force, no ISBN, no copyright. Air Force Manual AF-52B. An older, but excellent referance for practical applications of theory, not a theoretical textbook." > >Apparently your question may not quite so simple after all. You >further state that "A 90 degree pahse shift would indicate pure >inductance, would it not?" It would not, it might represent "pure" >inductance or capacitance depending on the pase between current >leading or laging the voltage, not simply inductance alone. > Just abridging it a little to make it a little shorter and easier. Oh, did you catch my post yesterday? If not, here it is again: .. By the way, if they were really 90 degrees out of phase wouldn't they be either * totally * inductive or * totally * capacitive. .. >While I did make the point that a "pure" resistance is impractical, >this is not the case for lumped inductance and capacitance, as >superconductivity is quite real and proven. lossless reactive >resonant circuits do exist, and are not prohibited by nature as purely >resistive systems apparently are. For more common situations, I refer >to my referance to shorted and open finite transmission lines, which >present capacitive or inductive loads while real world "best matches" >are not purely resistive. I specificaly made mention of this in my >most recent post. This is a quite intesting dicotomy I do not claim >to be able to explain, but it is emperical fact none the less. Yes, You again clearly make the point that a "pure" resistance is impractical. It's your point. You speak of "pure" inductance or capacitance above, but now slide effortlessly into "lumped" inductance or capacitance. Nice transition. > >The thrust of your basic question becomes lost here. Assuming you are >discussing free space waves, please provide any referances that show >current and voltage being in phase. If you are refering to a specific real world situation, this should be made clear. > Other faulty assumptions on your behalf. I'm quite clear in my last post about the thrust and nature of my question. I cannot stop others from trying to redefine it. >If persueing Maxwells equations, I strongly reccomend you look into >the work of Aharnov and Bohm on the so called Aharnov-bohm effect, >which demonstrates that "A" is not a simple constant as has been >assumed, but is an engineerable field with real effects. The magnetic >field is not primary in nature. this forces to to reconcider the >applications of the equations, especially where the term "A" has been >dropped as having no physical significance. > We appreciate your recent post on the AB effect. Maxwell's equations have been around along time and I'm a little reticent to declare them a myth. Maybe, someone will rewrite them for us. Perhaps put a little fudge factor in here or there to explain his most recent theory. I'm very serious about this last suggestion. I apologize to the list if I offend anyone for it is not intentional. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:14:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA01449 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:30:44 -0800 Received: from ix5.ix.netcom.com (ix5.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA01284 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:30:11 -0800 Received: from by ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA09154; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:28:45 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:28:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199512060328.TAA09154@ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@IX.NETCOM.COM (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > > >>post mentions that the E and M components vanish together meaning they >>cross zero together. The question is, since both are field strength >>vectors and vanish together, where has the energy been displaced? I > >What happens to the magnetic field in an inductor if the current is >so strong that it explodes the wire, causing a sudden disconnect, >such as in capacitive discharge? Someone I know who is >extremely knowledgable about electronics has asked it a time or two. >I suppose it just dissipates, but maybe something unusual. > >Gary Hawkins 12/5/95 Gary, There's a good article in ESJ a few issues ago on exploding wires. Also, I think Peter Graneau has done work on them. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:16:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA03923 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:38:25 -0800 Received: from ix7.ix.netcom.com (ix7.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA03542 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:37:22 -0800 Received: from by ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA17838; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:35:54 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:35:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199512060335.TAA17838@ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Sudden disconnect effects. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >Gary Hawkins asked: > >"What happens to the magnetic field in an inductor if the current is so >strong that it explodes the wire, causing a sudden disconnect, such as in a >capacitive discharge?" > >If the wire breaks for any reason, the field will collapse and induce a >current in any nearby conductors, such as that of the now broken inductor. >A large arc will form over the break, and release energy from the field. > >At least some of the energy that is. I cannot rule out other effects as >well, but I am not aware of any special or exotic processes envolved here. >The inductive kickback would be quite impressive if the field were intense >enough to Zeemanize the conductor. A nuke level EMP would result at least. > >Definately a "dont try this at home" item. > 12/5/95 Where then? In the office so we can nuke the employees? RWW Yup. Another joke. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 21:56:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19693 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:54:59 -0800 Received: from Rt66.com (mack.rt66.com [198.59.162.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA19584 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:54:44 -0800 Received: from [198.59.162.47] (pma27.rt66.com) by Rt66.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13265; Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:49:53 MST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:55:42 -0600 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: richard@rt66.com (Richard Austin) Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >When we take a basic EM wave we have to start some where. My original >post mentions that the E and M components vanish together meaning they >cross zero together. The question is, since both are field strength >vectors and vanish together, where has the energy been displaced? I >think everyone appreciates Maxwell's E and B equations (B and E have >identical wave form equations) and the fact that E and B are transverse >waves perpendicular to the the direction of propagation and are in >phase. Very simple question, just a plain EM wave propagating straight >ahead, where is the energy at the zero crossing nodes? Think about where the energy is in a tidal wave when it crosses the midline of the transverse. Even multiple tidal waves crossing each other. No problem. The energy hasn't gone away. Richard Austin -- email: richard@rt66.com -- radio: KG7SU WEB site: http://www.rt66.com/~richard/ ------------------------------------------------------- Institute for Planetary Renewal "Creating a Better World Through Healing & Design" Sing, Dance, Laugh, and Play... Have You Had Your Quota Today? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:03:39 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA22767 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:03:31 -0800 Received: from Rt66.com (mack.rt66.com [198.59.162.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA22727 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:03:25 -0800 Received: from [198.59.162.47] (pma27.rt66.com) by Rt66.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13876; Tue, 5 Dec 95 22:58:47 MST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:04:36 -0600 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: richard@rt66.com (Richard Austin) Subject: Re: fnrg: www.padrak.com/ine/ - Do - See Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Everybody look at this site. > >The Instutute for New Energy. > >Send me any good text articles to post. > >I need assistance in understanding how to best transfer pictures and photos >and slides and videotape into *.GIF or *.JPG files for the www - while >saving disk space. > >Thanks. Pictures & photos -- scan with scanner, edit in Photoshop or other editor. Save in favorite file format, Gif for 256 colors, jpeg for 24 bit color and compressed. Use jpeg for photos, gifs for graphics. Slides -- scan with a slide scanner or if your regular scanner has transparency adapter and high enough resolution (600 dpi should be more than adequate for decent sized screen pics). Edit as before. Video -- Grab frames with a frame grabber board in your computer. Edit as before. Richard Austin -- email: richard@rt66.com -- radio: KG7SU WEB site: http://www.rt66.com/~richard/ ------------------------------------------------------- Institute for Planetary Renewal "Creating a Better World Through Healing & Design" Sing, Dance, Laugh, and Play... Have You Had Your Quota Today? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 09:32:43 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA10359 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:32:29 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA10285 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:32:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199512061732.JAA10285@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 10:50:54 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] >So, what is happening as this cloud of electrons sloshes back and forth >along this resonant half-wave antenna? First, any time a current >flows, a magnetic field is generated that wraps around the conductor. >If the current is alternating, the field is alternating and the further >away we are from the conductor, the longer it takes us to notice the >change. This passing change in the magnetic force is the M wave. More >esoteric to visualize, the greater the current, the faster the electron >cloud is moving. And the faster the cloud is moving, the more rapidly >is the resultant electrical lines of force changing. And it is the >changing of the resulting lines of electrical force that is responsible >for the E wave. Looking closely at this, we see that at the point of >maximum current (and consequently, maximum M wave,) we are also having >the maximum change in the lines of the resultant electrical force from >the electron cloud (and consequently, maximum E wave.) In free space, >the vector representation of these waves are at right angles to each >other and inextricably in absolute phase with each other. > >Hopefully, this has shed a little light on the phenomena of the E-M >wave. Any criticism or corrections would be most welcomed... >-- >Bye... Ted.. >Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... > > > Bingo! Now *there* is an explanation of the kind I find useful. Was anyone getting anything out of that other stuff? Not me. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 03:47:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA06149 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:47:12 -0800 Received: from ix6.ix.netcom.com (ix6.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA06136 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:47:10 -0800 Received: from by ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id DAA12081; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:45:44 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:45:44 -0800 Message-Id: <199512061145.DAA12081@ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: drted@ix.netcom.com (Ted Viens) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mr. Shannon Wrote: > >Mr. Wall, > >You say that my referances may be a bit below the level of this group, but >a good review never hurts. Indeed. Apparently my review faild to show >several facts. > >Your original post refered to the coincident zero crossings of E and B >fields, and you appear to accept that a pure resistive system is not >possible, yet you again ask if "these vectors vanish together, where has >the energy been displaced?" > >I fail to understand how you would accept that "pure" resistance is >impractical, but that the zero crossings are still coincident. You further >state that the concept of a phase difference is false in the case of a wave >in propogation, but do not address any specifics of the situation you are >discussing. > >Assuming a free space wave, the zero crossings are not coincident. You >made referance in an eariler post that no referances had been given for my >possition, yet you are in disagreement with the referances I have provided, >but have given no referances to support your possition here. Do you have >any such referances to cite? > >Apparently your question may not quite so simple after all. You further >state that "A 90 degree pahse shift would indicate pure inductance, would >it not?" It would not, it might represent "pure" inductance or capacitance >depending on the pase between current leading or laging the voltage, not >simply inductance alone. > >While I did make the point that a "pure" resistance is impractical, this is >not the case for lumped inductance and capacitance, as superconductivity is >quite real and proven. lossless reactive resonant circuits do exist, and >are not prohibited by nature as purely resistive systems apparently are. >For more common situations, I refer to my referance to shorted and open >finite transmission lines, which present capacitive or inductive loads >while real world "best matches" are not purely resistive. I specificaly >made mention of this in my most recent post. This is a quite intesting >dicotomy I do not claim to be able to explain, but it is emperical fact >none the less. > >The thrust of your basic question becomes lost here. Assuming you are >discussing free space waves, please provide any referances that show >current and voltage being in phase. If you are refering to a specific real >world situation, this should be made clear. > >If persueing Maxwells equations, I strongly reccomend you look into the >work of Aharnov and Bohm on the so called Aharnov-bohm effect, which >demonstrates that "A" is not a simple constant as has been assumed, but is >an engineerable field with real effects. The magnetic field is not primary >in nature. this forces to to reconcider the applications of the equations, >especially where the term "A" has been dropped as having no physical >significance. > > Mr. Shannon may use whatever eloguent prose he prefers and make reference to sources however rustic or contemporary, still it does not save him from being, inexplicably, completely wrong. Please forgive me. I do not start so boldly to bait flame or disparage Mr. Shannon. I more wish to express the grave concern I have that in the week that this thread has run, first, no one has quickly replied with a concise explanation of the general characteristics and causes of the free space E-M wave, and, second, that many young students on this list may suffer setbacks if their early studies in these phenomena are so radically misled. The core of the problems in these errant explanations is mainly one of crossed metaphors. The boundaries of the phenomena of the transmission line, the antenna, and the free space E-M wave are fogged and forgotten. Studies of the physics of the transmission line are missapplied to the antenna and studies of the antenna are missapplied to the E-M wave. Where to begin? Since the root of this thread is the characteristics of the E-M wave, I will focus on the relationship of the antenna to the free space wave. Let us first look at the antenna. To reduce complexity, we will use a wire antenna of a resonant half wavelength length. Somewhere on this antenna, a mediocre transmission line is delivering energy at the resonant frequency. At the feedpoint a measurable sloshing of electrons (current) is being pushed and pulled onto and off of the antenna by a measurable oomph (voltage.) On the antenna itself, a sloshing of electons is measured along the wire and it is in phase with and reinforced by the sloshing from the transmission line. At the ends of the antenna wire, there is no place for the sloshing electrons to go and no place for them to come from so itsy bitsy current meters would measure virtualy no current. These would be current nodes or nulls. At the center of the wire, there would be bunches of electrons trying to slosh from one end of the wire to the other. This would be the place where one would measure the current peak or maxima. Now, as the electrons were madly sloshing to one end of the wire, there would come a point where the available energy in the cloud could push no more electrons in that direction. For a moment the sloshing would stop and the current would be nothing. Not so coincidently, at that moment there would be, along the antenna, the greatest electron separation. This from the end where the electrons were sloshing from to the end where the electrons were sloshing to. Charge separation is also a measure of the oomph or voltage from one point to another. Itsy bitsy voltage meters referenced to the earth would show that the voltage swings were greatest near the ends of the resonant half wave antenna and virtually nothing at the center. >From the study of current and voltage in the resonant half wave antenna, it becomes clear that the current and voltage -in the antenna- are physically and in time 90 degrees out of phase. Now, since somewhere at the other end of the transmission line somebodies transmitter is making the silver disk on their power meter spin, and neither the transmitter nor the antenna appear to be storing a dangerously explosive amount of energy, this energy must be going somewhere. And this is where we cross the boundary from antenna to E-M wave. And this is where the flaws in this thread have been generated. The first problem is in understanding the genesis of the E-M wave. It is ONLY the action of the sloshing electron cloud that generates the E-M wave. This can be shown by substituting the conductive antenna with a non inductive resistor and flat capacitor plates separated by a dielectric. The same energy delivered from the transmission line would generate the same voltages at the ends of our dielectric antenna yet no E-M wave would be detected at a far field test site. And conversely, different diameter wires could be substituted for the original antenna wire, each adjusted for the same current maxima. The far field test site would measure the same radiated E-M signal yet the voltage maxmima would vary with the diameter of the antenna. So, what is happening as this cloud of electrons sloshes back and forth along this resonant half-wave antenna? First, any time a current flows, a magnetic field is generated that wraps around the conductor. If the current is alternating, the field is alternating and the further away we are from the conductor, the longer it takes us to notice the change. This passing change in the magnetic force is the M wave. More esoteric to visualize, the greater the current, the faster the electron cloud is moving. And the faster the cloud is moving, the more rapidly is the resultant electrical lines of force changing. And it is the changing of the resulting lines of electrical force that is responsible for the E wave. Looking closely at this, we see that at the point of maximum current (and consequently, maximum M wave,) we are also having the maximum change in the lines of the resultant electrical force from the electron cloud (and consequently, maximum E wave.) In free space, the vector representation of these waves are at right angles to each other and inextricably in absolute phase with each other. Hopefully, this has shed a little light on the phenomena of the E-M wave. Any criticism or corrections would be most welcomed... -- Bye... Ted.. Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 19:47:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA12456 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:47:20 -0800 Received: from legend (legend.txdirect.net [204.57.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA12390 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:47:08 -0800 From: todd@legend.txdirect.net Received: from todd.txdirect.net (dynm01-054.txdirect.net) by legend (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA07447; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:41:17 -0600 Message-Id: <9512070341.AA07447@legend> X-Sender: todd@mail.txdirect.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 09:45:43 -0700 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Tin Foil... Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Finally heard back from AllFoil. No lick they said that the only way I would be able to get it is to special order it. Which means that I would have to by a bulk amount, like 10 tons. They have access to all foils like stainless, copper, and aluminum. But then again 10 tons would might make a 30 foot gravity capacitor. Whos for forcing the earth out of orbit. My high carbon india ink samples came in. With on coat I get about 1Kohms. Thats on tissue paper. I'm still looking for the ideal paper, but the tissue paper is only 1 mil thick. I'm still working on the application of the ink as well. Did everybody give up hope on this cap or what? Todd From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:04:19 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA26444 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:17:06 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26397 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:16:57 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA02522; Wed, 6 Dec 95 13:06:20 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Wed, 6 Dec 95 13:16:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 12:43:07 EST Message-Id: <4F06+gMRlkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: I'm willing to be wrong here, but... X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ted Viens gives a good description of the phase angles between current and voltage being at 90 degrees in an antenna in his post, and then proceeds to state that the emitted wave has these fields in phase by interoducing the concept of a free electron cloud in which the antenna is embedded. We should note that a receiving antenna has the same phase relationship as in the transmitting antenna. He also points out that the context of the thread had not made the specifics clear as to if we had been discussing transmission lines, circuits, or free space waves. I agree here, and tired to clear exactly this aspect of the discussion up, to no avail. Ted points out in his post that he wishes that no students be misled or suffer setbacks be reading the discussion. I cannot see how this is relavent in a "free energy" list, as conventional wisdom does not permit free energy. Members of this liast server are here because we suspect that conventional wisdom may not know all it claims to. if you are a student, you should not accept anything you read on this list for the same reasons. While Ted correctly describes the phase condition in the antenna, his description of the free space wave is dependant on this free electron cloud concept. I would like to clarify this possition by asking if this free electron cloud is beleived to exist in a vaccum, where electromagnetic waves appear to operate just as they do in normal conditions? Can we describe the launching of an EM wave with an in phase condition from an antenna with a 90 degrees phase difference without the free electron cloud? EM waves will propogate without such a free electron cloud, will they not? Do these EM waves have mass? If not, how do they transmit force accross a vaccum? And what happend to F=MA? T.E. Bearden adresses exactly this in some of his earlier works, which are in my opinion his best. His later material is quite a different matter altogether. In this forum, we should be forwarding our personal views and theories, not protecting the minds of students who might "suffer setbacks" from reading material presented here. We are not here to promote the standard views, nor to protect unsuspecting students. Why defend the classical model on a free energy list when classical teachings tell us free energy is impossible? Also, I'm still looking for anyone other than myself to produce referances on this subject rather than simply stating their beleifs. Please do provide these referances. I'd rather learn something than not, and am uninterested in dogma in any form, pro or against my possition. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 11:46:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA13417 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:43:58 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA13348 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:43:49 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA09913; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:42:16 -0500 Date: 06 Dec 95 14:40:34 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: clarification on EM... Message-ID: <951206194034_76216.2421_HHB88-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gary - You wrote: >>> "Was anyone getting anything out of that other stuff? Not me. Me neither. That was a good explanation. I would like a little more clarification on a few points though, and they go back to the original question in this thread. You're out in the far field, and you look at one of those crossing nodes where E & B are in phase and are zero. You see no energy there, simply because the antenna didn't bother to send any to that point in time and space, if I've taken this correctly. Ok so far, but I get caught a little bit on the word "propagate", which seems to imply based on the word's definition and use in these discussions that properties of space has something to do with the EM wave's propagation. That is, that space and not just antennas propagate EM waves. I don't think that's true, but that's where I'm a bit confused. If a singe sharp EM pulse is sent through space, and you look at the pulse hours or years later far from it's source, has it splintered up into many smaller waves? Water surface waves do that, and mass, gravity, and elasticity are involved. A single sharp pulse isn't tolerated well in such a medium, and the vibrations set up by the wave's passage through a point tend to be continually re-propagated in a sense by the now in-motion mass particles of the medium which tend to stay in motion. The reactance of free space seems to imply that there are analogous properties in space as a "medium" as well, but are there, and do they show up by causing similar effects on EM waves? Does this differ in transmission lines? And in all of this, where are the longitudinal or "scalar" waves? Like the familiar transverse components, are they just ghosts without real existence until some effects of detection are recorded and the "health of the cat" is determined? Are our problems in showing them just one of not having a proper detection system that can isolate them from amongst the E & B components which tend to overwhelm any electrical/magnetic detection equipment with their effects? And if all the energy input to the antenna which leaves it can be accounted for by the EM field, is the scalar energy "sneaking" into the antenna and "slipping past" detection in the EM field in equal amounts? How did it sneak into the generator driving the oscillator feeding the antenna, if the mechanical energy of the generator is known? Then again if the E & B components _are_ manifestations of the scalar energy... Sorry to plug the bandwidth with so many questions, but I hope these reflect the thoughts and questions of at least a few other list members. Ted or anyone, can you help with any of these? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From eskimo.com!freenrg-list-owner Wed Dec 6 22:20:46 1995 remote from apollo.is.co.za Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by apollo.is.co.za (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4tmp8) id WAA19398; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:20:41 +0200 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA13417 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:43:58 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA13348 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:43:49 -0800 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA09913; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:42:16 -0500 Date: 06 Dec 95 14:40:34 EST From: Rick Monteverde To: Subject: fnrg: clarification on EM... Message-ID: <951206194034_76216.2421_HHB88-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: apollo.is.co.za!eskimo.com!owner-freenrg-list Precedence: bulk Reply-To: apollo.is.co.za!eskimo.com!freenrg-list Status: RO X-Status: Gary - You wrote: >>> "Was anyone getting anything out of that other stuff? Not me. Me neither. That was a good explanation. I would like a little more clarification on a few points though, and they go back to the original question in this thread. You're out in the far field, and you look at one of those crossing nodes where E & B are in phase and are zero. You see no energy there, simply because the antenna didn't bother to send any to that point in time and space, if I've taken this correctly. Ok so far, but I get caught a little bit on the word "propagate", which seems to imply based on the word's definition and use in these discussions that properties of space has something to do with the EM wave's propagation. That is, that space and not just antennas propagate EM waves. I don't think that's true, but that's where I'm a bit confused. If a singe sharp EM pulse is sent through space, and you look at the pulse hours or years later far from it's source, has it splintered up into many smaller waves? Water surface waves do that, and mass, gravity, and elasticity are involved. A single sharp pulse isn't tolerated well in such a medium, and the vibrations set up by the wave's passage through a point tend to be continually re-propagated in a sense by the now in-motion mass particles of the medium which tend to stay in motion. The reactance of free space seems to imply that there are analogous properties in space as a "medium" as well, but are there, and do they show up by causing similar effects on EM waves? Does this differ in transmission lines? And in all of this, where are the longitudinal or "scalar" waves? Like the familiar transverse components, are they just ghosts without real existence until some effects of detection are recorded and the "health of the cat" is determined? Are our problems in showing them just one of not having a proper detection system that can isolate them from amongst the E & B components which tend to overwhelm any electrical/magnetic detection equipment with their effects? And if all the energy input to the antenna which leaves it can be accounted for by the EM field, is the scalar energy "sneaking" into the antenna and "slipping past" detection in the EM field in equal amounts? How did it sneak into the generator driving the oscillator feeding the antenna, if the mechanical energy of the generator is known? Then again if the E & B components _are_ manifestations of the scalar energy... Sorry to plug the bandwidth with so many questions, but I hope these reflect the thoughts and questions of at least a few other list members. Ted or anyone, can you help with any of these? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 12:17:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26972 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:15 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA26943 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:10 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA00432; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:15:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:15:44 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. In-Reply-To: <199512061145.DAA12081@ix6.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Ted Viens wrote: > > The core of the problems in these errant explanations is mainly one of > crossed metaphors. The boundaries of the phenomena of the transmission > line, the antenna, and the free space E-M wave are fogged and > forgotten. Studies of the physics of the transmission line are > missapplied to the antenna and studies of the antenna are missapplied > to the E-M wave. Where to begin? Since the root of this thread is the > characteristics of the E-M wave, I will focus on the relationship of > the antenna to the free space wave. If antenna theory should not be applied to EM wave propagation, then let us not apply it there. > > Let us first look at the antenna. To reduce complexity, we will use a > wire antenna of a resonant half wavelength length. Somewhere on this (Lots of antenna theory deleted) > maximum current (and consequently, maximum M wave,) we are also having > the maximum change in the lines of the resultant electrical force from > the electron cloud (and consequently, maximum E wave.) In free space, > the vector representation of these waves are at right angles to each > other and inextricably in absolute phase with each other. I believe you have reached an incorrect conclusion. All of the discussion to date has been from the top down, conceptually; arguments based on transmission lines and antennae. My approach is from the bottom up; arguing from Maxwell's equations. Jumping right in, we have curl B =(e0) -dE/dt. Let me take a uniform oscillating E field along x axis such that E = . Now dE/dt = <-E0 omega sin (omega t), 0, 0>, which is clearly 90 degrees out of phase from E, and is proportional to curl B. Since we assume that space is free here, the only B field will be dur to this curl, and B will be proportional to curl B. Also the fields are assumed to be uniform, so the 90 degree phase shift refers only to time and not spatial phase, therefore the B is in (temporal) phase with the curl B. E and B fields are 90 degrees out of phase in EM waves in free space. > > Hopefully, this has shed a little light on the phenomena of the E-M > wave. Any criticism or corrections would be most welcomed... > -- > Bye... Ted.. > Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... > > Charles From eskimo.com!freenrg-list-owner Wed Dec 6 23:18:42 1995 remote from apollo.is.co.za Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by apollo.is.co.za (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4tmp8) id XAA20740; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:18:37 +0200 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26972 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:15 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA26943 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:10 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA00432; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:15:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:15:44 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. In-Reply-To: <199512061145.DAA12081@ix6.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: apollo.is.co.za!eskimo.com!owner-freenrg-list Precedence: bulk Reply-To: apollo.is.co.za!eskimo.com!freenrg-list Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Ted Viens wrote: > > The core of the problems in these errant explanations is mainly one of > crossed metaphors. The boundaries of the phenomena of the transmission > line, the antenna, and the free space E-M wave are fogged and > forgotten. Studies of the physics of the transmission line are > missapplied to the antenna and studies of the antenna are missapplied > to the E-M wave. Where to begin? Since the root of this thread is the > characteristics of the E-M wave, I will focus on the relationship of > the antenna to the free space wave. If antenna theory should not be applied to EM wave propagation, then let us not apply it there. > > Let us first look at the antenna. To reduce complexity, we will use a > wire antenna of a resonant half wavelength length. Somewhere on this (Lots of antenna theory deleted) > maximum current (and consequently, maximum M wave,) we are also having > the maximum change in the lines of the resultant electrical force from > the electron cloud (and consequently, maximum E wave.) In free space, > the vector representation of these waves are at right angles to each > other and inextricably in absolute phase with each other. I believe you have reached an incorrect conclusion. All of the discussion to date has been from the top down, conceptually; arguments based on transmission lines and antennae. My approach is from the bottom up; arguing from Maxwell's equations. Jumping right in, we have curl B =(e0) -dE/dt. Let me take a uniform oscillating E field along x axis such that E = . Now dE/dt = <-E0 omega sin (omega t), 0, 0>, which is clearly 90 degrees out of phase from E, and is proportional to curl B. Since we assume that space is free here, the only B field will be dur to this curl, and B will be proportional to curl B. Also the fields are assumed to be uniform, so the 90 degree phase shift refers only to time and not spatial phase, therefore the B is in (temporal) phase with the curl B. E and B fields are 90 degrees out of phase in EM waves in free space. > > Hopefully, this has shed a little light on the phenomena of the E-M > wave. Any criticism or corrections would be most welcomed... > -- > Bye... Ted.. > Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... > > Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:04:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA25194 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:46:10 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA24894 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:45:21 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA06949; Wed, 6 Dec 95 17:34:33 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Wed, 6 Dec 95 17:44:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 17:00:06 EST Message-Id: <4F06+a7VlkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Since we assume that space is free here, the only B field will be dur to >this curl, and B will be proportional to curl B. Also the fields are >assumed to be uniform, so the 90 degree phase shift refers only to time >and not spatial phase, therefore the B is in (temporal) phase with the >curl B. > > E and B fields are 90 degrees out of phase in EM waves in free space. Ok, I buy this, as it is in agreement with practice as I understand it. I still have not seen any referances cited to support the in phase condition. I also must point out that EM wave propogation is not dependant on the presence of a free electron cloud. Reading Ted Viens post would suggest otherwise. >If a singe sharp EM pulse is sent through space, and you look at the pulse >hours or years later far from it's source, has it splintered up into many >smaller waves?" No, but the wave will have spread out due to quantum effects, even a pulse from a laser is divergent to a degree. This can be thought of as being due to internal repulsion of like charges within the wave itself, but I have read referances that this effect is present within single quanta. The phenomena at work here is the superpossition of quantum states. >The reactance of free space seems to imply that there are analogous properties >in space as a "medium" as well, but are there, and do they show up by causing >similar effects on EM waves? Does this differ in transmission lines? Indeed these properties have been measured as the permeability of free space, and it's dielectric constant. Space has well defined and easily measured electrical properties. >And in all of this, where are the longitudinal or "scalar" waves? Like the >familiar transverse components, are they just ghosts without real existence >until some effects of detection are recorded and the "health of the cat" is >determined? >And if all the energy input to the antenna which leaves it can be accounted >for by the EM field, is the scalar energy "sneaking" into the antenna >and "slipping past" detection in the EM field in equal amounts? How did it >sneak into the generator driving the oscillator feeding the antenna, if the >mechanical energy of the generator is known? Then again if the E & B components >_are_ manifestations of the scalar energy... As far as scalar waves, in a pure EM system, you might choose to think there are no scalar components present at all, or model the EM wave system as a pair of scalars as per Whittaker. EM and scalar waves and potentials are to a degree interchangable. On the subject of the "energy" being accounted for, I must point out that you cannot simply say a scalar has a given energy. Energy is not defined in physics, stating that it is the ability to do work is not a definition. I refer again to reactive power, it does no "work", so is it not energy stored in the system? "Potential" and "energy" are not such simple concepts as many like to think. Circular logic is not a definition. Scalars are potentials. Differances in potentials yeild vectors. Realization of the potential differences may be "energy". Potentials have been proven to be quite real, and have real effects. As this list server's intent (as explained to me by it's originator)is a focus on practical hands on experimentation, I would like to suggest we forward physical experiments to resolve these issues, theoretical debate does have it's merits despite some opinions to the contrary, but emperical evidence goes much further for the same bandwidth. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 14:40:59 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA21321 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:36:09 -0800 Received: from WVLINK.MPL.COM (WVLINK.MPL.COM [198.77.4.68]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA20939 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:35:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:35:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199512062235.OAA20939@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from SLIP7.MPL.COM by WVLINK.MPL.COM (MX V4.0 VAX) with SMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 1995 17:34:29 EST X-Sender: browning_ib@198.77.4.68 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: browning_ib@wvlink.mpl.com (IB Browning) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I believe you have reached an incorrect conclusion. All of the discussion >to date has been from the top down, conceptually; arguments based on >transmission lines and antennae. My approach is from the bottom up; >arguing from Maxwell's equations. > >Jumping right in, we have curl B =(e0) -dE/dt. > ... > >E and B fields are 90 degrees out of phase in EM waves in free space. > This is also the way I learned it gang! (Plus its nicely graspable intuitively, which is usually worth something) Maybe if we just take a vote we can achieve democratic science at any rate. -IB From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:03:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA16751 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:46:28 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA16388 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:45:38 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id SAA07632 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:45:27 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512062345.SAA07632@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: fnrg: re: forcefield To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com (Wierd) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:45:26 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ok, I want a forcefield that will repell *ALL* matter. Magnetic and nonmagnetic. Any ideas? Andrew -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:04:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA20077 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:55:06 -0800 Received: from ix6.ix.netcom.com (ix6.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA19960 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:54:50 -0800 Received: from by ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id PAA17060; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:53:23 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:53:23 -0800 Message-Id: <199512062353.PAA17060@ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: And yet more on EM waves! To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 12/6/95 Dear Mr. Shannon, Thank you for another vituperative post. Again, I will defend myself and respond to your attacks in a professional and courteous manner trying to with hold any personal criticism. >Speaking of twisting facts, you have twisted your own words, you claim >your post read: >"By the way, if they were really 90 degrees out of phase >wouldn't they be either * totally * inductive or * totally * .>capacitive." >But this is not what was distributed to the list server. As posted >you only referred to the pahse shift as being inductive, not >capacitive. Talk about ethics! Whos been caught now? What a faux pas! Boy, that was easy nailing Wall. Heh. Heh. Hmmm ... Look at this: Message: 116 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: And yet more on EM waves! Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:53:03 -0800 12/4/95 snip ... Catch the change? Now, he starts to qualify. Yea, current and voltage "are" in phase BUT only in a resistive circuit. He adds ad valorem factors such as electrical properties of space, etc. You know, it's now the outside factors that determine how an EM wave is propagated. No where now does he even mention E and M being 90 degrees out of phase. By the way, if they were really 90 degrees out of phase wouldn't they be either * totally * inductive or * totally * capacitive snip ... RWW Mr. Shannon, Your post made a big deal that I only mentioned pure inductance and that there might also be pure capacitance. I posted that I was abridging it to inductance to make it easier and simpler. I made it clear that I was aware of capacitance and had posted it as such. Again, see above. I try to construct my posts clearly, tightly and logically. If you care to read them, do so slowly and carefully. Now, you claim I have twisted my own words. And, you have also injected ethics. I stand by my posts in direct opposition to your claims. You cannot deny my posts exist. I let you and those who read this truth determine "ethics" and "whose caught now." snip . . . >You repeatedly fail to see the implications of the material presented, >and claim that the review is below the level of people on the list >server while it is apparently above your own level of understanding. >Others on the list server have read the references and have altered >their possition to match the facts as presented. Wonderful, let them step forward and explain how they have altered their position to match the facts as presented. That's the beauty of this list and free speech. I encourage one and all to step up to plate and verify Mr. Shannon's claim that they have altered their position. >Yuo have faild to present any referances of you own to support you >contention that free space waves act as the impractical pure resistive >situation, while I have produced common referances that descirbe the >90 degree phase shift for free space waves, as in the ARRL handbook, >and the excellent text mentioned here. Again, you are attempting to redefine my original observation and question. Please refer to previous post regarding EM waves. I cannot stop you or any from redefining . The assertions are all yours therefore you must support your contentions. That's just how it works. >There is no need to rewrite Maxwell's equations, but if you check the >reference in this post, you will find that "corrections" are needed to >the modern accepted form in the conditions discussed. This may not be >true for the original format of Maxwell's work. >We do not use the original equations Maxwell originated generally, but >I have heard that these corrections are not needed for the originals. >I cannot say if this is or is not the case for the original format. This is the only worthy part of your post in my opinion. Just as I suspected, you freely admit Maxwell' s equations as written need some type of fudge factor ( err . . I'll use the term "correction", it's more p.c.). Wow! this is the stuff that will win you the Nobel. Please let us know of the new and revised Maxwell Equations. I'm serious! >As there appears to be little support for your possition on the list >server, and yu have done nothing to prove your contention or disprove >teh referances cited, I suggest that this thread be dropped. snip . . . >Care for another go around on this subject? As to support, please read the posts the past few days. By the way this is not a poll. " ...I suggest that this thread be dropped." ... " Care for another go around on this subject?" Schizophrenic thought process? Heh. Heh. >"Never argue with a pig, you both get dirty, and the pig likes it". This is an ad hominem argument. However, I decline to reply in kind. On second glance, it's humorous. Thanks for the little joke Mr. Shannon, it proves you are developing a little sense of humor. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 17:30:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA25209 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:30:29 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA25146 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:30:15 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id RAA07540; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:29:42 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:29:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: failed message, forwarded Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 05:50:47 -0500 > To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com > From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) > Subject: Help on a specific Tesla coil > > I'm building the Tesla coil featured in the September 1991 Radio > Electronics. Some of you may remember this coil as the one wound on a > polyethylene paint container? It uses a solid state driver circuit. > Anyway, I've been unable to obtain the specified ferrite transformer cores > and bobbins recommended by the author, and have been making substitutions > (and therein lies the problem). > > Question: have any of you on this list built this coil, or ones similar? > I'd like to tap your experiences and expertise on the subject, please. > > Bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 17:34:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA26444 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:34:14 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA26365 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:33:58 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id RAA08024; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:33:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:33:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Bufo Calvin's WeirdWorld list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Bufo's WEIRD WORLD covers the gamut of unexplained events. It is known for its sense of humour and critical thinking approach. Typically, a page or two (never more than 150 lines at a time) is sent out once or twice a week. To subscribe, e-mail BUFO.CALVIN@AWAITER.COM." From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 20:36:02 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA28375 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:35:59 -0800 Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA28359 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:35:56 -0800 Received: from fw118.fastlane.net (fw118.fastlane.net [206.42.189.18]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA02416 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:32:36 -0600 Message-Id: <199512070532.XAA02416@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 22:35:24 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: Re: fnrg: Tin Foil... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Finally heard back from AllFoil. No lick they said that the only way I would >be able to get it is to special order it. Which means that I would have to >by a bulk amount, like 10 tons. They have access to all foils like >stainless, copper, and aluminum. But then again 10 tons would might make a >30 foot gravity capacitor. Whos for forcing the earth out of orbit. >My high carbon india ink samples came in. With on coat I get about 1Kohms. >Thats on tissue paper. I'm still looking for the ideal paper, but the tissue >paper is only 1 mil thick. I'm still working on the application of the ink >as well. >Did everybody give up hope on this cap or what? > >Todd > You might try "onion" paper. This is a very thin paper, used to be used for tracing. I believe it will be no more than 1 mil thick. Bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 20:38:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA29177 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:38:24 -0800 Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA29076 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:38:09 -0800 Received: from fw118.fastlane.net (fw118.fastlane.net [206.42.189.18]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA02552 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:34:41 -0600 Message-Id: <199512070534.XAA02552@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 22:37:35 -0500 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm building the Tesla coil featured in the September 1991 Radio Electronics. Some of you may remember this coil as the one wound on a polyethylene paint container? It uses a solid state driver circuit. Anyway, I've been unable to obtain the specified ferrite transformer cores and bobbins recommended by the author, and have been making substitutions (and therein lies the problem). Question: have any of you on this list built this coil, or ones similar? I'd like to tap your experiences and expertise on the subject, please. Bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 21:35:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA18044 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:35:05 -0800 Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA18011 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:34:59 -0800 Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13163 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:11:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:11:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199512070411.XAA13163@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: ARGHHHHHH Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wow: I tried to address the issue of phase in an intelligent way, but this seems to fall on deaf ears. Others seem to be having the same problem. So I'm going to end this once and for all. !Everyone! should have a copy of Halliday and Resnicks "Fundamentals of Physics". We got these texts as freshman, every student pursuing a science major has run across it. It's been the standard textbook since the sixties. Now, check out section 38-2, called Generating an Electromagnetic Wave. Several diagrams show the field patterns around a simple dipole. I can't type these diagrams in: I STRONGLY recommend you actually look at this book. But the last sentence of the section says it well... "Note that the Electric field E and the Magnetic field B are perpendicular to each other and to the direction of propagation" Now, look at section 38-3, Travelling waves and Maxwells equations. I quote directly from the book... "Next we will analyse the sinusoidal wave that passes and observer at point P in Fig 38-4.( this is the figure which shows the field patterns about the dipole ). We will show that this wave is consistant with Maxwells equations and prove that these equations predict that such an electromagnetic wave travels with a speed C." "The lines of E are choosen to be parallel to the y axis and those of B to the z axis. The values of B and E for this wave depend only on x and t. We postulate that they are given by E = E_peak * sin (kx - wt) B = B_peak * sin (kx - wt) Note that E and B are in phase, that is, at any point through which the wave is moving they reach their maximum values at the same time" end quote. These are the basic equations for the field pattern in the far field, around a radiating dipole. In the near field, you will have reactive energy storage ( IE phase shift ). This is due to the physical length of the antenna, and the velocity of the travelling electromagnetic wave. Interference produces this phase shift. But please, I've actually made near and far field vector impedence measurements, of a real dipole, and honest to god, the scope wasn't lying when it displayed an in phase condition. K. PS if the bit about the "we postulate" bothers you, read further. They do derive these equations. They also do a good job of explaining how this comes about when dE/dx = -dB/dt. Just read it. Then post. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 23:11:49 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA14502 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:25:17 -0800 Received: from ns.bbtt.com (ns.bbtt.com [194.77.35.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA14078 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:24:05 -0800 From: harti@bbtt.com Received: from localhost (harti.bbtt.com [194.77.35.75]) by ns.bbtt.com (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA02868 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 03:23:35 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 03:23:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199512070223.DAA02868@ns.bbtt.com> X-Sender: harti@bbtt.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: How much energy from dphi/dt ? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I am still wondering how much energy could be extracted by a changing magnetical flux field. That is : dphi/dt phi here stands for the magnetical flux. Normally in the text books this is calculated from the 1st law of energy conversation, but I think this might be wrong. So, if I build a system where I will capture the changed magnetic flux, e.g.= =20 with a moving permanent magnet, so that Lenz=B4s Law can=B4t be working,= then=20 the only thing to enhance is dphi/dt to capture huge amounts of energy via a coil. Can somebody please comment ? Please let me know your thoughts. Regards, Stefan. -- Hartmann Multimedia Service _Buy our Internet MPEG CD-ROM ! Visit the WEB_ Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann _site below !_ Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany Tel: ++ 49 30 344 23 66 FAX: ++ 49 30 344 92 79 email: harti@ddd.snafu.de harti@bbtt.com Web site: http://www.bbtt.com/harti/harti.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 04:23:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA18099 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:21 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA18076 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:14 -0800 Received: from dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.3]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA09021 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:19:49 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512071219.XAA09021@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:23:22 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 6 Dec 95 at 17:00, Robert A. Shannon wrote: [snip] > On the subject of the "energy" being accounted for, I must point out that > you cannot simply say a scalar has a given energy. Energy is not defined > in physics, stating that it is the ability to do work is not a definition. > I refer again to reactive power, it does no "work", so is it not energy > stored in the system? "Potential" and "energy" are not such simple > concepts as many like to think. Circular logic is not a definition. [snip] There is only one form of energy in the universe. It consists of the kinetic energy (energy of movement) of electromagnetic field lines. Careful analysis of all other forms will reveal that they consist of the above mentioned. This includes mass, gravity, and nuclear energy. This will all become clear in this current decade. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 04:23:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA18059 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:05 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA18052 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 04:22:00 -0800 Received: from dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-3.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.3]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA09007 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:19:44 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512071219.XAA09007@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:23:22 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 6 Dec 95 at 18:45, Andrew Cantino wrote: > Ok, I want a forcefield that will repell *ALL* matter. Magnetic and > nonmagnetic. Any ideas? > Andrew -- A 100 foot thick concrete wall. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 06:33:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA16104 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:33:09 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA16030 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:32:58 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA24036 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:23:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id IAA25368; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:32:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:32:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512071432.IAA25368@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >There is only one form of energy in the universe. It consists of the >kinetic energy (energy of movement) of electromagnetic field lines. >Careful analysis of all other forms will reveal that they consist of >the above mentioned. This includes mass, gravity, and nuclear energy. >This will all become clear in this current decade. >Robin van Spaandonk What is an electromagnetic field? What is an electromagnetic field line? How do you define them? Zack From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 06:59:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA23173 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:59:06 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA23124 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:58:58 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA28434 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:49:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id IAA02251; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:58:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:58:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512071458.IAA02251@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Devices Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Guys, I'd like to see some things here about experiments with real devices and the results of them. Whast have you built? What did it do? Here's some I've been interested in but haven't had the time yet to completely build and try (one of these days) ... Moray's device Kromrey generator Bedini's device "N" machine Swiss-ML converter Hendershot's device Brandt-Tesla switch Joe Newman's machine Perrigo's device The Hubbard transformer Gray's motor Searl's "Levity discs" The Stromerzeuger Variable-Reluctance transformers Any others? Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 08:54:03 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA01954 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:52:22 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01930 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:52:18 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA20696; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:50:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:50:54 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. In-Reply-To: <199512071219.XAA09021@tornado.netspace.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > There is only one form of energy in the universe. It consists of the > kinetic energy (energy of movement) of electromagnetic field lines. > Careful analysis of all other forms will reveal that they consist of > the above mentioned. This includes mass, gravity, and nuclear energy. > This will all become clear in this current decade. > Robin van Spaandonk Does this include the energy of the chargeless neutrino, or potential energies against the gravitational, strong nuclear, or weak fields? > > Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, > Learns all his life, > And leaves knowing nothing. > Robin Feb. 1995 > Charles chope@escape.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 09:03:03 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA05617 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:02:52 -0800 Received: from borg.mindspring.com (root@borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA05569 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:02:43 -0800 Received: from mob.mindspring.com [168.121.53.182] by borg.mindspring.com with SMTP id MAA17069 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:02:27 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:05:09 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: mob@mindspring.com (Michael O'Bannon) Subject: Re: fnrg: Tin Foil... Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 9:45 AM 12/6/95, todd@legend.txdirect.net wrote: >My high carbon india ink samples came in. With on coat I get about 1Kohms. >Thats on tissue paper. I'm still looking for the ideal paper, but the tissue >paper is only 1 mil thick. I'm still working on the application of the ink >as well. Todd, I'll bet that the dialectric qualities are going to be important for this application. I don't know how much voltage you intend to impose, but tissue paper doesn't sound like a good choice if the voltage is high. Thicknes is not the only issue. Some of the engineers on the list might wnat to comment on dialectric qualities. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D. Corporate Psychologist 42 Lenox Pointe Atlanta, GA 30324 404-237-3883 mob@mindspring.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 09:15:24 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA10053 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:14:59 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA09983 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:14:45 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA25597; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:12:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:12:57 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: ARGHHHHHH In-Reply-To: <199512070411.XAA13163@cnct.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Keith Nagel wrote: > > !Everyone! should have a copy of Halliday and Resnicks "Fundamentals of > Physics". We got these texts as freshman, every student pursuing a science > major has run across it. It's been the standard textbook since the sixties. > > Now, check out section 38-2, called Generating an Electromagnetic Wave. > Several diagrams show the field patterns around a simple dipole. I can't > type these diagrams in: I STRONGLY recommend you actually look at this book. > But the last sentence of the section says it well... > > "Note that the Electric field E and the Magnetic field B are perpendicular > to each other and to the direction of propagation" This is a statement about orientation in space (spatial phase) and not about which is peaking when (temporal phase). In my post I tried to dismiss the issue of spatial phase (It is 90 degrees!) and focus on temporal phase, because that's what I thought Tinsley's original query was about, and it is certainly linked to the nagging question that arises here whenever it is asserted that the E and B are in (temporal) phase. That question is: "If the E and B diminish to zero simultaneously, then nothing exists at all and what is left to propagate after that time?" It sounds like a good question to me. > > Now, look at section 38-3, Travelling waves and Maxwells equations. I quote > directly from the book... > > "Next we will analyse the sinusoidal wave that passes and observer at point > P in Fig 38-4.( this is the figure which shows the field patterns about the > dipole ). We will show that this wave is consistant with Maxwells equations > and prove that these equations predict that such an electromagnetic wave > travels with a speed C." > > "The lines of E are choosen to be parallel to the y axis and those of B to > the z axis. The values of B and E for this wave depend only on x and t. We > postulate that they are given by > > E = E_peak * sin (kx - wt) > > B = B_peak * sin (kx - wt) > > Note that E and B are in phase, that is, at any point through which the wave > is moving they reach their maximum values at the same time" > > end quote. > It will be a few days before I can reach my copy of Halliday, and when I do, I will post the results of my dialogue with it. In the meantime, two things are called for: 1) What is your response to the question above? Since you have put the E and B fields in phase, why do they propagate past the first common vanishing point? 2) What is the flaw in my derivation straight from Maxwell's Equations? The weakest link might be my assertion that curl B is in phase with B. With Stokes' law it is seen that B is proportional to curl B, and so therefore must be in phase. > > K. Charles Hope chope@escape.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 09:37:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA17825 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:36:47 -0800 Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA17726 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:36:29 -0800 Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id MAA07253 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:36:15 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512071736.MAA07253@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: fnrg: Tin Foil... To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:36:14 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Michael O'Bannon" at Dec 7, 95 12:05:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > At 9:45 AM 12/6/95, todd@legend.txdirect.net wrote: > > >My high carbon india ink samples came in. With on coat I get about 1Kohms. > >Thats on tissue paper. I'm still looking for the ideal paper, but the tissue > >paper is only 1 mil thick. I'm still working on the application of the ink > >as well. > > Todd, > I'll bet that the dialectric qualities are going to be important for this > application. I don't know how much voltage you intend to impose, but > tissue paper doesn't sound like a good choice if the voltage is high. > Thicknes is not the only issue. Some of the engineers on the list might > wnat to comment on dialectric qualities. > > Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D. > Corporate Psychologist > 42 Lenox Pointe > Atlanta, GA 30324 > > 404-237-3883 > > mob@mindspring.com > > > What are you making? -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 13:58:51 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA25997 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:57:59 -0800 Received: from ddi.digital.net (ddi.digital.net [198.69.104.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA25810 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:57:31 -0800 Received: from [198.69.104.101] (pm2_1.digital.net [198.69.104.101]) by ddi.digital.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00532 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:54:45 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:54:53 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: tilleyrw@digital.net (Robert Tilley) Subject: fnrg: Magnet Devices Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does anyone have any commentary on the magnetic motor of Petrus Pergrinus, as it exists on the Keelynet BBS? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, | | and why. Then do it." -- Lazarus Long | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Robert Tilley * tilleyrw@digital.net * "Once upon a time..." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | *** --- *** --- http://ddi.digital.net/~tilleyrw --- *** --- *** | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 13:58:19 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA25799 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:57:28 -0800 Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA25726 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:57:16 -0800 Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tNoJC-001VzKC; Thu, 7 Dec 95 15:56 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: Re: fnrg: How much energy from dphi/dt ? To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:56:53 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199512070223.DAA02868@ns.bbtt.com> from "harti@bbtt.com" at Dec 7, 95 03:23:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 723 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stefan Hartman writes: > I am still wondering how much energy could be extracted by a > changing magnetical flux field. > > So, if I build a system where I will capture the changed magnetic flux, > with a moving permanent magnet, so that Lenz's Law can't be working, > the only thing to enhance is dphi/dt to capture huge amounts of energy via a > coil. > Can somebody please comment ? Lenz's law is always working and is the law. Whether the source of the changing B field is a changing current or moving magnet does not matter. The induced current is always in the direction to cancel the field which generates it. You can induce enough current to cancel it, and no more. Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 01:00:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA25394 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:37:09 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA25328 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:36:59 -0800 Received: from t3.dialup.peg.apc.org (t3.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.131]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id HAA25725 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:36:32 +1000 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:36:32 +1000 Message-Id: <199512072136.HAA25725@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Devices Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > >Hey Guys, > >I'd like to see some things here about experiments with real devices and >the results of them. Whast have you built? What did it do? > >Here's some I've been interested in but haven't had the time yet to Searl's "Levity discs" >The Stromerzeuger >Variable-Reluctance transformers > >Any others? > >Zack >w9sz@prairienet.org Yes... apart from Tesla coils which I used to build when I owned an electronics research lab there's one other device that fascinates me. It stores the mental energy of a "human gaze" (sort of focussed mind-power) and converts it into mechanical energy. There are apparently 2 Czechoslovakian patents on this device in favour of one Robert Pavlita. I saw a video clip if this device here in Australia some years ago and have been trying (half-heartedly) to track it down ever since. Anyone got any info?? Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:58:50 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA13243 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:54:09 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA13002 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:53:22 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA03800; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:53:15 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:53:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Bounced message storm. Again. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bounced messages are coming in from UUCP apollo.is.aat.za again, so I'm hand-forwarding the freenrg-list email until I clear it up. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:58:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14131 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:23 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA13591 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:54:59 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA03917; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:54:54 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:54:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: Longitudinal EM Force To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:50:40 -0600 (CST) Hi all. Some of this information (about Peter Graneau) was posted here earlier this week. A number of related theories and other reference information has been added. -- Robert Stirniman ------------------------------------------------------------------ A Longitudinal EM Force May Exist Due to Current Flow Dr Peter Graneau has conducted experiments which he claims provide a demonstration of departure from classical electrodynamics at high currents levels. A force is found to exist in a direction longitudinal to current flow. Graneau ran a variety of types of experiments with a metal rod conductor immersed in a conductive fluid (mercury, or saline solution). With high amperage passing through the solution the metal rod is found to move in a longitudinal direction. There is no known explanation in conventional EM theory. This force may be similar to the force (v X B) that William Hooper finds in a noninductive coil. Or Graneau's longitudinal force may be a coupling between the electromagnetic and inertial/gravitational fields, which is predicted by some 5-D unified EM/gravitational theories -- predicted to result from a divergence of the electric current vector field. Graneau's experiments should be relatively easy to duplicate. I can find no record that anyone has ever done so. Graneau has also discovered apparently anomalous forces and effects in high energy electromechanical devices such as rail guns and induction motors. In a possibly related development, Rex Schlicher of Albuquerque NM, a former Air Force officer, has been awarded a patent for a device which he claims converts unipolar current pulses into a propulsive force which is longitudinal to the directiion of current flow. Schlicher presented a paper about this device at the 31st annual AIAA Joint Propulsion conference. Schlicher's invention uses a coaxial transmission line structure, at the end of which, the return current diverges into three separate current loops. The device also incorporates copper prisms internal to the coax structure, which are insulated from the transmission line, and provide an eddy current reflection via magnetic induction. In his paper to the AIAA, he describes his device as follows: A method is presented for generating mechanical spacecraft propulsion from unsymmetrical magnetic induction fields. It is based on an unsymmetrical three-dimensional loop antenna structure driven by a repetitively-pulsed high-current power supply. Antenna geometry is optimized for generating propulsive thrust rather than radiating electromagnetic energy. A magnetic field density gradient imbalances the magneto-mechanical forces that result from the interations of the internal magnetic induction field with the current in the conductors of the antenna structure. Also related may be the work of E.G. Cullwick. In his book "Electromagnetism and Relativity", published in 1957, he was one of the first to provide an analysis of the probable coupling between EM and inertial fields. Cullwick realized that Maxwell's equations and most existing theories of electrodynamics assume that the mass of an electron is zero. At Maxwell's time this was a reasonable assumption. But it is well known today that electrons have mass, and therefore an inertial momemtum is always associated with an electric current. Cullwick suggested in his analysis that coupling terms between EM and inertia may be very small, but would likely appear sometime in the future as we go to higher current densities. And he was one of the first scientists to predict some of the odd effects which can now seen with superconductors. Cullwick was also one of the first to identify and attempt an analysis of the relativistic paradoxes and unusual effects which occur in a rotating EM field. His work still stands today as one of the only existing efforts to consider the problem of a rotating EM field. >From Richard Feynman's Lectures on Physics we learn that there is intrinsic field energy and momentum density associated with a static electro-magnetic field configuration. When there is a change in the magnetic field, this field energy and momentum can be directly converted into kinetic energy and mechanical momentum. Feynman illustrates this with an electromagnetic carousel paradox. In this paradox, a dielectric disk (which is embedded with small charged spheres along its circumference) rotates without any apparent "counter" torque in the system. Before this rotation occurs, the dielectric disk is immersed in a static magnetic field. The subsequent rotation occurs as a consequence to reducing the previously static magnetic field to zero. The angular momentum and rotational kinetic energy comes directly from the initial static magnetic field. In my opinion, there may be something important underlying all this -- along the lines of unification of the EM and gravitational fields. The kind of experiments identified above are relatively inexpensive to conduct. Yet, no one seems to be working on things like this. Why do most physicists nowadays seem to be either engaged in prohibitively expensive experiments, or in writing enormously complicated theories, which may or may not have any practical value? What became of the small lab and the entrepeneurially oriented experimenter? Historicaly, these have always provided the foundation of new scientific knowledge. Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) ====================================================================== Books and articles by Peter Graneau: AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Ampere-Neumann electrodynamics of metals/Peter Graneau. PUBL.: Nonantuma, MA. : Hadronic Press, FORMAT: ix, 311 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. DATE: 1985 SUBJECT Metals--Electric properties--History. Free electron theory of metals--History. Electrodynamics--History. Electric conductors--History. ISBN: 0911767371 AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter TITLE: Electromagnetic Jet Propulsion in the Direction of Current Flow In: Nature June 18, 1982 No 295 Page 311 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Ampere force calculation for filament fusion experiments. In: Physics letters. a MAR 22 1993 v 174 n 5/6 Page 421 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Comment on "The motionally induced back-EMF in railguns". In: Physics letters: [part A] DEC 02 1991 v 160 n 5 Page 490 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): The Difference between Newtonian and Relativistic Forces. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1993 v 6 n 5 Page 491 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Electrodynamic momentum measurements. In: Journal of physics d: applied physics. DEC 01 1988 v 21 n 12 Page 1826 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Far-action versus contact action. In: Speculations in science and technology. 1990 v 13 n 3 Page 191 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Inertia's Riddle. Summary: Inertia has been misunderstood ever since the time of Galileo says Dr. Graneau. In: Electronics world + wireless world. JAN 01 1990 v 96 n 1647 Page 60 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Longitudinal forces in Ampere's wire-arc experiment. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 08 1989 v 137 n 3 Page 87 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Thompson, D.S. Morrill, S.L. TITLE(s): The motionally induced back-emf in railguns. In: Physics letters: [part A] APR 30 1990 v 145 n 8/9 Page 396 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Nonlocal Action in the Induction Motor. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1991 v 4 n 5 Page 499 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Graneau, N. TITLE(s): The role of Ampere forces in nuclear fusion. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 04 1992 v 165 n 1 Page 1 AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Underground power transmission : the science, technology, and economics of high voltage cables / Peter Graneau. PUBL.: New York : Wiley, FORMAT: x, 515 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. DATE: 1979 SUBJECT: Electric cables Electric power transmission Electric lines--Underground ISBN: 0471057576 Other References: "Electric Propulsion Study", by Dr Dennis Cravens of SAIC Corp, prepared for the Astronautics Laboratory at Edwards Air Force Base, August 1990, Report No AL-TR-89-040 "Mechanical Propulsion From Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" by: R.L. Schlicher A.W. Biggs W.J. Tedeschi 31st AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference and Exhibit, July 10-12 1995 "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" by Richard Feynman, R.B. Leighton, and M. Sands, Volume II p 17-6 "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System and Method", R.L. Schlicher Nineteenth Power Modulation Symposium of the IEEE, 1990 Page 139 "Classical Electrodynamics" by C.D. Jackson, 2nd Edition, John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1975 "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" Richard Feynman, R.B. Leighton, and M. Sands, Volume II p 27-9 US Patent #5142861, "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System", R.L. Schlicher et al. 1992 AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: Electromagnetism and relativity : with particular reference to moving media and electromagnetic induction / by E. G. Cullwick. EDITION 2d ed. PUBL.: New York : J. Wiley, DATE: 1959 (2nd Edition) SUBJECT: Electromagnetic theory, Relativity (Physics) AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: The fundamentals of electro-magnetism by E.G. Cullwick. EDITION 3rd ed. PUBL.: London, Cambridge U.P., DATE: 1966 (3rd Edition) SUBJECT: Electromagnetism AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: The fundamentals of electro-magnetism; a restatement for engineering students and others of physical and theoretical principles in accordance with modern scientific thought, by E. Geoffrey Cullwick ... With an appendix and numerous examples on the recently adopted M.K.S. system of practical units ... PUBL.: New York, The Macmillan company; Cambridge, Eng., The University press, DATE: 1939 SUBJECT: Electromagnetism ============================================================================ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:58:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14208 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:37 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14088 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:14 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA04032; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:12 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: devices. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 16:45:51 EST From: "Robert A. Shannon" Subject: Re: devices. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com I have worked on some of the devices mentioned in the original post. Here are my understandings and observations of each: The Kromrey Converter: These devices can exhibit interesting operation, but a much more sophisticated timing system is needed than is described in the published materials on these devices. The batteries take quite a pounding though, and fail quickly. Care needs to be taked as there is a huge amount of hydrogen produced. Gell cells do not survive long in this application. Kromrey Converters will run self powered for far longer than can be easily explained, but it's quite difficult to rule out shock excitation of the battery electrolyte. The quick depletion of the battery might support this hypothisis. Due to the high frequancy components accross the battery while in operation, measurments are difficult, and the power factor is unsteady, making it quite hard to analize the exact performance of the system. Over unity operation may be present, but is hard to prove. Special cells add cost faster than they add useable life to the system. No gain there so far. In any case, the Kromrey converter does not produce "free energy", as the cost of batteries is quite high, and you must begin with a charged battery to start the device initialy. The environmental impact of battery manufacture and disposal appear to rule this design out from any large scale applications. I lost interest in tis design some years ago due to these factors, and due to the fact that operating a Kromrey converter apparently produces an imballance in the virtual particle flux near the device, as it is electrically unballanced operation. This might easilt be addressed, but the battery issues are more complex. Interesting, but a dead end in my opinion. The Brandt-Tesla switch: The Brandt-Tesla switch suffers the same problems, it does not produce "free energy", but it does produce cheap energy. In a electrostatically ballenced configurration (4 cell, as opposed to the simpler two unequal cell configuration) it does appear to go over unity for short times, but again, the cells take a pounding and quickly fail. Shock excitation of the electrolyte is difficult to disprove, so sadly this device, and any device dependant on rechargable batteries would appear to be a dead end. Again, a much more sophisticated timing devices is needed, each battery should be monitored by a microcontroller that controlls adaptive timing for the switches. The batteries will soon reach unequal electrical conditions. Shutting down and physically moving the cells around, like rotating tires, helps to a degree, but not enough. Teh high frequancy components accross the batteries make data collection difficult for the microcontroller, and extensive filtering is needed. This filtering effects teh microcontrollers response time to the state of the batteries, and lowers the useful life of the cells as the charging cycle cannot be as accurately controlled. The important lesson from this device is that in the ballanced configuration, the virtual particle imballence is greatly reduced or absent. This imballance can be detected by a high grade electrometer inside a Faraday cage, or by a Gradiometer. "N" Machines: N machines have not proven over unity operation. The Sunburst device appeared to go over unity, but once power factors and careful measurments were taken into account, over unity operation was not proven. There may be unknown factors in it's operation though, but still not proven to be over unity. There is a varient of the N machine that does not produce power, but MAY have an apparent loss of weight while in operation. This variation closes the path of magnetic flux through the disk, but not radialy. Equal but opposite currents are induced in a pattern around the disk. My personal experience with N machines is largely limited to this varient. This device may have nore to do with Searl's device than the N machines, or fall somewhere in between. Over all, N machines appear to still have unresolved issues in their operation, and may well hold some promise. Some work done on N machine varients in India reported over unity operation some time ago, but little further has been published on these so caled "Space Power Generators". I give these an "undecided" rating. The Grey motor: While I have no experience with this device, Grey's motor has apparently been shown not to be over unity recently. I think the papers on this can be found in the INE proceedings. Anyone have these referances? Any others? Yes, there is a non linear magnetic device with no moving parts, and on energy input what so ever that does produce an output. While the output power level is quite small, it is enough to power very simple tunnel diode transmitters and such small loads. While not practical for any reasonable applications, the power output ratio is infinite, and no input power is needed at all. The mass of the device is quite high, and the cost of production cannot justify the tiny output power levels, but ti does show that some "unknown" (by conventional physics) energy source is present. The power output is DC, and with no power input, and no moving parts in a magnetic field, errors in measurement are next to impossible. Power output levels are in the millivolt range, but these devices can be connected in series or parallel. This device does however make an excellent proof of concept prototype that shows that what appears to be a closed system can produce a power output, however small. This device has a apparently good theory of operation based on the "hypothetical" existance of scalar background radiation exchange between neucleons in atomic matter. Those who refute scalar theory will not doubt dismiss this device off hand. I am not aware of any other possible source for the power output, or it;s long term variations that appear to match known cycles. (lunar and other) So there may be some hope. Some theories suggest that over unity operation envolves the alteration of the world lines of virtual particles onto paths parallel to our own world line. By this action, the energy of these particles may be used in the operation of the device or system. The virtual particle would be no different from any "real" particle except that it's world line had been orthagonal to ours, and therefor only detectable while the world lines crossed. By altering the world line of these particles, these theories hold that we are effecting systems existing along differnt time lines from out own. If this is the case, use of such technology on a large scale, or even a small scale, might be unwise. Such theories are quite hard to prove, or to disprove. The non-linear magnetic device may side step this issue all together, but it's power output levels and cost render it impractical for real world applications other than proof of concept demonstrations. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:58:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14439 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:57:14 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14344 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:58 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA04070; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:56:56 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:08:22 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: mob@MindSpring.COM (Michael O'Bannon) Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield At 6:45 PM 12/6/95, Andrew Cantino wrote: >Ok, I want a forcefield that will repell *ALL* matter. Magnetic and >nonmagnetic. Any ideas? > Andrew -- So do I, Andrew. Regards, Michael O'Bannon From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:02:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA16079 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:02:01 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15978 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:01:42 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA04303; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:00:41 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:00:40 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Prozac Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:34:14 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: Prozac Mr. Hope : In answer to your first question, I didn't put E & B in phase in a travelling wave, God did. If you have any critical commentary in this regard, please address it to the correct office. Seriously, I think a better way to look at this would be, why should you expect the wave to travel if E is 90 degrees out of phase with B. This condition occurs in a standing wave, where two travelling waves are mixing as they propagate in opposite directions ( say, like what you might see if you bounced a wave off of a flat surface and it reflected back at you. ). The resulting wave is oscillating in time, but remains stationary in space. Go down to your local pond or stream ( or tub ) and watch what happens as periodic waves strike a flat rock and reflect... thats a standing wave. If you make a cavity ( like your tub ) and drive it at a frequency whose wavelength matches the tub size, you'll see resonance, a standing wave which builds on itself. The energy isn't going anywhere ( reactive power, Mr Shannon ), so what you see is the 90 degree phase shift. As regards your second question, it will be answered by reading the appropriate passage in the reference I gave. But if you are impatient like me, here's a suggestion. Take the E & B equations I posted, and take the partial derivative of E with respect to x, and B with respect to t. I get.... @E/@x = k*E_peak*cos(k*x-w*t) @B/@t = -w*B_peak*cos(k*x-w*t) now substitute in @E/@x = - @B/@t, cancel terms, and meditate on the physical significance of w/k. I'll give you a hint, the CGS system really helps here by giving actual dimensions to things like ohms... SI system kind of bites in this regard. Then, try it with your equations ie E = sin(theta) B = cos(theta). Interesting, eh? Anyway, I still don't understand why this is confusing... Maybe it would help if you explained the rational behind propagation with phase shift? Many people seem to accept this as a given, but I just don't get it. All of my lab experience with the phase shifted condition has been with standing waves, not travelling ones. Be Seeing You, K. Todays pet peeve : What's an M wave. Magnetic? really now... lets stick with B & H. And, todays hint : Making capacitors out of carbon loaded ink is making really, really, really low Q capacitors. Is this desirable? What's a gravity capacitor? Something that stores gravity :) But if you really have to use this, buy activated charcoal from the aquarium supply store. Grind it up, and load your ink! Might get it down to a few ohms per square. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:02:38 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA16216 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:02:22 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA16144 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:02:08 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA04368; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:01:31 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:01:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Tin Foil... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 20:37:13 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: clipper@iglou.com (S.G.) Subject: Re: fnrg: Tin Foil... >Finally heard back from AllFoil. No lick they said that the only way I would >be able to get it is to special order it. Which means that I would have to >by a bulk amount, like 10 tons. They have access to all foils like >stainless, copper, and aluminum. But then again 10 tons would might make a >30 foot gravity capacitor. Whos for forcing the earth out of orbit. >My high carbon india ink samples came in. With on coat I get about 1Kohms. >Thats on tissue paper. I'm still looking for the ideal paper, but the tissue >paper is only 1 mil thick. I'm still working on the application of the ink >as well. >Did everybody give up hope on this cap or what? > >Todd > > > No Todd I'm still gathering materials, unfortunatly Chistmas is coming up and the wife has access to the ol' bank account so it may be a bit before purchase to much. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:03:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA16581 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:03:20 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA16496 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:03:05 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA04449; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:02:46 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:02:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Tin Foil Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: KGSurfer@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:13:45 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tin Foil >Finally heard back from AllFoil. No lick they said that the only way I would >be able to get it is to special order it. Which means that I would have to >by a bulk amount, like 10 tons. They have access to all foils like >stainless, copper, and aluminum. But then again 10 tons would might make a >30 foot gravity capacitor. Whos for forcing the earth out of orbit. >My high carbon india ink samples came in. With on coat I get about 1Kohms. >Thats on tissue paper. I'm still looking for the ideal paper, but the tissue >paper is only 1 mil thick. I'm still working on the application of the ink >as well. >Did everybody give up hope on this cap or what? > >Todd I haven't given up yet! I've been doing some figuring and have got some ideas. I know that you can get tin foil from Hagenow Labs for $1.95 per 3 foot strip. Now I'm assuming this is 3 square feet, I'll have to call and find out. I cut up some pieces of aluminum foil and wax paper to to get an idea of how many layers it will take to make a 7 inch stack. I came up with 920 layers of tin foil and twice as many layers of waxed paper. Now if you can cut out 9 layers in each square foot then in would take about 102 square feet total to get my 920 layers. This would cost me only $70 to purchase. Currently I'm trying to make a single piece pattern out of plexiglass for the tin foil layers. I could stack about 20 layers of tin foil together and using an exacto knife cut the pattern out. This may take a little time but I could always hire some kid for $5/hr to do the work for me. Total cost around $100. If anybody see's an error in my thinking please let me know! K. Seuferer From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:05:43 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA17340 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:05:28 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA17283 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:05:17 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA04642; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:05:02 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: ARGHHHHHH Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "chris kleynhans" Organization: Alcatel Altech Telecoms To: Charles Hope , freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 09:18:10 +2 > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:12:57 -0500 (EST) > From: Charles Hope > To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: fnrg: ARGHHHHHH On Thursday 7 Dec 1995 Charles Hope replies to Keith Nagel: > > > On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Keith Nagel wrote: > > > > !Everyone! should have a copy of Halliday and Resnicks "Fundamentals of > > Physics". We got these texts as freshman, every student pursuing a science > > major has run across it. It's been the standard textbook since the sixties. > > > > Now, check out section 38-2, called Generating an Electromagnetic Wave. > > Several diagrams show the field patterns around a simple dipole. I can't > > type these diagrams in: I STRONGLY recommend you actually look at this book. > > But the last sentence of the section says it well... > > > > "Note that the Electric field E and the Magnetic field B are perpendicular > > to each other and to the direction of propagation" > > This is a statement about orientation in space (spatial phase) and not > about which is peaking when (temporal phase). In my post I tried to > dismiss the issue of spatial phase (It is 90 degrees!) and focus on > temporal phase, because that's what I thought Tinsley's original query was > about, and it is certainly linked to the nagging question that arises here > whenever it is asserted that the E and B are in (temporal) phase. That > question is: "If the E and B diminish to zero simultaneously, then > nothing exists at all and what is left to propagate after that time?" It > sounds like a good question to me. > > > > > Now, look at section 38-3, Travelling waves and Maxwells equations. I quote > > directly from the book... > > > > "Next we will analyse the sinusoidal wave that passes and observer at point > > P in Fig 38-4.( this is the figure which shows the field patterns about the > > dipole ). We will show that this wave is consistant with Maxwells equations > > and prove that these equations predict that such an electromagnetic wave > > travels with a speed C." > > > > "The lines of E are choosen to be parallel to the y axis and those of B to > > the z axis. The values of B and E for this wave depend only on x and t. We > > postulate that they are given by > > > > E = E_peak * sin (kx - wt) > > > > B = B_peak * sin (kx - wt) > > > > Note that E and B are in phase, that is, at any point through which the wave > > is moving they reach their maximum values at the same time" > > > > end quote. > > > > It will be a few days before I can reach my copy of Halliday, and when I > do, I will post the results of my dialogue with it. In the meantime, two > things are called for: > > 1) What is your response to the question above? Since you have put the E > and B fields in phase, why do they propagate past the first common > vanishing point? > > 2) What is the flaw in my derivation straight from Maxwell's Equations? > The weakest link might be my assertion that curl B is in phase with B. > With Stokes' law it is seen that B is proportional to curl B, and so > therefore must be in phase. > > > > > K. > > Charles Hope > chope@escape.com > I am just writing on my gut feel as I haven't had time to go back to the books and maths. The propagation of a wave is dependant on the constant exchange of energy between two states such as kinetic energy transforming to potential energy and vice versa. On can call the point of maximum potential energy such as when a pendulum reach its top before the downswing, an invisible point in the wave as no movement is visible at that stage. But the potential is there and it would turn it into movement again. At the point of maximum kinetic energy minimum amplitude would occur but that doesn't imply the pendulum won't make up to the other side. A sound wave can be described as propagation of air density. It doesn't have two components (such as E and M). But it does propagate past its zero crosover points. The answer of propagation lies in the wave equation itself which entails propagation due to changes in time and changes in space. I also don't have that with me right now so I can't analyse it properly. Any wave thus consist of an original disturbance in time and space and those are the only factors that cause propagation. Sinisoidal equations such as the above one quoted are solution to the wave equation. Now for an interesting question: What happens when you polarise a light wave in one plane? Are the E & M still perpendicular? They must be. Do they lie perpendicular and flat in their own planes and do they continue in that plane ad infinitum or do they circle in the x y plane as they propagate into z? Best Regards Chris Kleynhans From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:13:37 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA19537 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:12:01 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA19310 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:11:09 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA04834; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:08:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:08:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Plasma Cutter Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: todd@legend.txdirect.net Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 13:40:53 -0700 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Plasma Cutter I've been looking at these things lately. I don't understand it. They are very exspensive for what's there. If you don't know what they are there what I would call a cheap alternative to a laser cutting system. They supposely use a high freqency arc to produce the heat and uses compressed air that blows the metal away. I was reading the material on one that says that the output is 110Vdc. How is freqency produced with DC? I know this may be a dumb question, but this is confusing me. Now it was explained to me by the salesman that the high freqency arc is necesary for it to be able to blow air threw the center of the arc. I thought about calling the company and asking more, but if I had to guess I would say that the freqency setting is a secret. I've only seen one used once and remember a small arc about 1/8". The input was 220Vac. Does anyone know how this thing works, I know this has nothing to do with Free-Energy, but it can cut thin metal like that used in the Gravity Capacitor. But like the laser problem it most likely will weld multiple sheets of foil together. If the thickness isn't really going to be a problem then I don't see why it can't be used to cut 8 mil plates like I originally started to use. Todd From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:14:06 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA19799 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:12:47 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA19632 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:12:11 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA04873; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:08:53 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:08:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Devices Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:50:41 -600 (CST) From: Mark Mansfield Subject: Re: fnrg: Devices To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Jim Francis wrote: > > > > > >Hey Guys, > > > >I'd like to see some things here about experiments with real devices and > >the results of them. Whast have you built? What did it do? > > > >Here's some I've been interested in but haven't had the time yet to > Searl's "Levity discs" > >The Stromerzeuger > >Variable-Reluctance transformers > > > >Any others? > > > >Zack > >w9sz@prairienet.org > > Yes... apart from Tesla coils which I used to build when I owned an > electronics research lab there's one other device that fascinates me. It > stores the mental energy of a "human gaze" (sort of focussed mind-power) and > converts it into mechanical energy. There are apparently 2 Czechoslovakian > patents on this device in favour of one Robert Pavlita. I saw a video clip > if this device here in Australia some years ago and have been trying > (half-heartedly) to track it down ever since. > Anyone got any info?? > Jim > Hello Jim, The device you are talking about, are there copies of the patents that can be had? I'm interested in this as well. You talk about the "human gaze", is this the one where you have a mirror that reflects your image behind you in a darken, indirectly lighted black wall? This is quite interesting and might be possible with a "infinity mirror". Are you familiar with the infinity mirror? Mark From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:14:35 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA20029 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:13:33 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA19878 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:12:51 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA04927; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:09:33 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:09:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Devices Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 15:50:19 +0200 From: Stephan.Clerc@psi.ch (STEPHAN H.-R. CLERC) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Devices In order to enlarge Zack's list: Keely motor Strader machine From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 16:59:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA20803 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:16:03 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA20529 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:15:20 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA05201; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:13:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:13:40 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Tin foil Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I think the source of foil Gary H. found may be real. I'm going down there saturday to see if it's actually tin. They say its 6" wide and about .001" thick or less. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:00:39 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA16365 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:59:20 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA16334 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:59:13 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA20275; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:59:12 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:59:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:08:22 -0500 mob@MindSpring.COM (Michael O'Bannon) > At 6:45 PM 12/6/95, Andrew Cantino wrote: > > >Ok, I want a forcefield that will repell *ALL* matter. Magnetic and > >nonmagnetic. Any ideas? > > Andrew -- > > So do I, Andrew. But nobody knows how to do this. If it's possible at all, then the key is hidden in undiscovered areas of physics. Which I suspect are huge, and are all around us unseen. Conventional researchers have many advantages, but a major disadvantage is the belief that 99.9% of physics is discovered, that the unknowns only exist in exotic places (like high energy particle physics) and that anything unconventional or "weird" is obviously wrong and deserves ridicule. And so, the hobbyists and amateurs have a big chance to explore areas where conventional researchers dare not go. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:02:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA17282 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:02:26 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA17268 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:02:22 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA20459; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:02:20 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:02:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: VTA Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 03:23:56 +1100 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Nicholas Goviadinov Subject: VTA I would like to build the sweet VTA device, does anyone know how to do this? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:05:35 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA18173 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:05:32 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA18160 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:05:29 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA20618; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:05:28 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:05:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: More security for users Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>> who freenrg-list **** List 'freenrg-list' is an anonymous list. **** The 'who' command is not allowed for this list. I've added an upgrade command to the list configuration, so the "who" command is no longer allowed. Several people have wanted to subscribe anonymously to the list. Now this is possible, at least as long as they only lurk and do not send messages. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:13:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA20203 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:13:30 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA20173 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:13:24 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21033; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:13:23 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:13:23 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: re: "fnrg Prozac" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 16:49:43 EST From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: re: "fnrg Prozac" >Anyway, I still don't understand why this is confusing... Maybe it would >help if you explained the rational behind propagation with phase shift? Many >people seem to accept this as a given, but I just don't get it. All of my >lab experience with the phase shifted condition has been with standing >waves, not travelling ones. Please explain why phase correction capcitors are used in AC power distrubution systems, and AC loads have power factors, and why power factor correction devices are in common use. Standing waves do not imply that power is not being transfered, power transfer and standing waves are not mutualy exculusive situations as is suggested. In any real system delivering power to a load, some standing waves are present. The current in a capacitor or inductor is traveling, but does not have current and voltage in phase. Also reactive power is present in systems with energy delivered to a load, not just in standing waves. The rational behind propogation with phase shift has been described here already, what has not been described is how a wave would propogate in the in phase condition, the very question that originally started this thread. Claims have been made that the in phase condition has been demonstrated experimentally. I would like to understand the conditions and equipment used to verify this, specificaly the transducers used to measure the current and voltage in the free space wave. Can this be provided so that it may be reproduced? I think the new subject heading used for this thread is objectionable, we have already been warned by the list owner about this sort of thing. List servers like this are to promote useful discourse on these subjects, not to say God did it. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:15:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA20745 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:15:30 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA20709 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:15:25 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21155; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:15:24 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:15:23 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:23:40 +1000 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Devices >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:50:41 -600 (CST) >From: Mark Mansfield > >On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Jim Francis wrote: >> > >> > >> >Hey Guys, >> > >> >I'd like to see some things here about experiments with real devices and >> >the results of them. Whast have you built? What did it do? >> > >> >Here's some I've been interested in but haven't had the time yet to >> Searl's "Levity discs" >> >The Stromerzeuger >> >Variable-Reluctance transformers >> > >> >Any others? >> > >> >Zack >> >w9sz@prairienet.org >> >> Yes... apart from Tesla coils which I used to build when I owned an >> electronics research lab there's one other device that fascinates me. It >> stores the mental energy of a "human gaze" (sort of focussed mind-power) and >> converts it into mechanical energy. There are apparently 2 Czechoslovakian >> patents on this device in favour of one Robert Pavlita. I saw a video clip >> if this device here in Australia some years ago and have been trying >> (half-heartedly) to track it down ever since. >> Anyone got any info?? >> Jim >> > >Hello Jim, >The device you are talking about, are there copies of the patents that can >be had? I'm interested in this as well. You talk about the "human gaze", >is this the one where you have a mirror that reflects your image behind you >in a darken, indirectly lighted black wall? This is quite interesting and >might be possible with a "infinity mirror". Are you familiar with the >infinity mirror? > >Mark Hi Mark, No....this device appears to store mental energy and release it in a different form. The Czech Govt. sponsored its development followed by the Russians. It appears to indicate the existance of a totally new form of energy that is demonstratable with Kirlian photography. The only complete reference I have ever found on this subject is in a very highly regarded book called PSYCHIC DISCOVERIES BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder....published by ABACUS (Sphere Books Ltd.) 1973. This book raised a lot of eyebrows when first released due to the personal credibility of the authors and their extraordinary ability to make personal contact with leading iron-curtain scientists. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:17:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21396 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:17:45 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21353 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:17:40 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21261; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:17:38 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:17:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:55:45 -0800 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: PGB@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey) Subject: New Energy News TOC (Oct, Nov, Dec) From: www.padrak.com/ine/ New Energy News Table of Contents: The Monthly Publication of The Institute for New Energy CONTENTS FOR OCTOBER 1995: Vol. 3, No. 5 UNIV. OF ILLINOIS & SETI COLD FUSION DEMO .....1 SPECIAL CATHODE MATERIAL ......................2 FUSION BRIEFINGS ..............................2 Cold Fusion Is A Live Issue ................2 Advanced Concepts Report (EPRI Report) .....3 Hot Fusion Chauvinism - History Note .......4 SPACE ENERGY ..................................5 Gravitational Wave Correspondences .........5 Measuring Gravity ..........................5 Atoms In Waves .............................5 Corrections To Experiments on Potapov Device ...........5 SOLID STATE SPACE ENERGY DEVICES ..............6 Get The Vacuum And Help ....................6 Braided Coil Trickle Current ...............7 MRA Revisited ..............................9 ELECTRIC VEHICLES ............................11 EV's Proven To Be Twice As Efficient ......11 Nickel Metal Hydride Pilot Plant ..........11 MISCELLANEOUS ................................11 Refuting Modern Physics ...................11 Uncle Sam, Polluter .......................12 Room Temperature Superconductivity? .......13 Efficient Solar Panel .....................13 2nd Law Partially Indefinite ..............13 EDITORIAL ....................................15 LETTERS ......................................15 Flores - Letter from Geneva, Switzerland ..15 Neiper - Letter from the German Association of Vacuum Field Energy ...........16 Pangman - Letter from Ed Pangman ..........16 Rotegard - Rotegard Writes Washington .....18 Rothwell - Letter and Review from Jed Rothwell 19 Watson - Letter from Mike Watson 19 COMMERCIAL COLUMN ............................22 Companies .................................22 Information Sources .......................23 MEETINGS .....................................23 Natural Philosophy Alliance and the Amer. Assoc. for the Advancement of Science, June 2-6, 1996 .........................23 CONTENTS FOR NOVEMBER 1995: Vol. 3, No. 6 MORE MOTOR NEWS: 317% EFFICIENCY! ............1 APPROVAL VOTE FOR THE BYLAWS OF THE INE .......2 ON FREE-ENERGY DEVELOPMENTS, THE IANS AND THE INE .......................3 LEST WE FORGET! DID YOU KNOW ... .............4 FUSION BRIEFINGS ..............................5 The 102 Factor and Room Temperature Superconductivity ......5 Pons-Fleischmann Patent: ENECO Receives Notice of Intent of Patent Grant from European Patent Office ..................6 Triode Cold Fusion Cell ....................6 England's Nuclear Sun is Waning ............7 New Cold Fusion Patents ....................8 SPACE ENERGY ..................................8 Adams-Cathie Theory = New Magnets ..........8 Either and Einstein: A Review .............9 Super-Thick, Super Fluid Ether ............10 SOLID-STATE SPACE-ENERGY DEVICES .............11 MRA Measurement Verification ..............11 ROTATING SPACE-ENERGY MACHINES ...............12 Takahashi Announcement ....................12 Test on dePalma N-Machine .................12 Note on Swiss M-L Converter ...............13 ELECTRIC VEHICLES ............................14 Miners and Diesel Dust ....................14 New Battery Developments ..................14 Unleaded Poison? ..........................15 California Impact EV Test .................16 Electric transportation Mandate ...........16 MISCELLANEOUS ................................17 Indian Government Abandons Fossil Fuel Project ....................17 News From Keelynet ........................17 Energy Problems Looming? ..................17 EDITORIAL ....................................19 Meeting the One-Watt Challenge: The Patterson Power Cell ...............19 Other New Energy Devices ...............20 Two Major Energy Sources ...............20 Energy for Developing Countries: A Vacation Experience ..................21 LETTERS ......................................22 Dr. Peter Gluck, Romania ..................22 Emil Alexandrescu, Romania ................22 COMMERCIAL COLUMN ............................23 Companies .................................23 Information Services ......................23 Also Included: (1) Proposed INE Bylaws (5pp) and (2) INE Members Approval/Revisions Voting Form CONTENTS FOR DECEMBER 1995: Vol. 3, No. 7 INE BYLAWS APPROVED 1 AUSTRALIAN GROUP SEEKS INE AFFILIATION 1 REPLACE THE POLLUTING AUTOMOBILE (EDITORIAL) 1 FUSION BRIEFINGS 4 Washington D.C. Cold Fusion Lecture 4 The Developing Patterson Power Cell (TM) 4 Russian Geologic Cold Fusion 5 SPACE ENERGY 5 Patents 5 Energy From A Cold-Cathode Discharge: A 30 Year Saga 6 Gravity and Ether Theory 7 Awakening in Germany 10 SOLID-STATE SPACE-ENERGY DEVICES 10 Rodin Coil Design 10 ROTATING SPACE-ENERGY DEVICES 12 The Takahashi Magnets and Motor 12 Morphing the Electrostatic Generator 12 Electrostatic Force Flow 13 Electrokinetic Rotor Experiment 13 MISCELLANEOUS 13 INE World Wide Web (WWW) Site 13 U.S. Is Energy Revolution Dropout? 14 For Your Information: Over Unity is Recognized in Conventional Science 15 Water Electrolysis with Unique Features 16 Book: Angles Don't Play This HARRP: Advances in Tesla Technology (The military's High- frequency Active Auroral Research Program) 18 FTL (Faster Than Light) Drive - Fantasy or Reality 19 LETTERS 19 Letter from Dr. Collis, Italy 19 Letter from Canada (C. Warren Hunt) 20 Letter from Dr. Filimonov, Russia 20 Letter from Lee Trippett 21 COMMERCIAL COLUMN 23 Companies 23 Information Services ......................23 New Energy News is available for: $35.00 per year for individuals in the US; $60.00 per year for corporations, libraries, and universities in the US; and Add $15.00 per year for First Class Mailing anywhere in the world. Single issues are also available by specific request. New Energy News Institute for New Energy P.O. Box 58639 Salt Lake City, UT 84158-8639 TEL 801-583-6232 FAX 801-583-2963 Email ine@padrak.com WWW www.padrak.com/ine/ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:18:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21660 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:18:25 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21619 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:18:18 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21306; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:18:14 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:18:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: I'm willing to be wrong here, but... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:52:51 -0800 From: drted@ix.netcom.com (Ted Viens) Subject: Re: fnrg: I'm willing to be wrong here, but... To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Robert Shannon wrote: > >Ted Viens gives a good description of the phase angles between current and >voltage being at 90 degrees in an antenna in his post, and then proceeds to >state that the emitted wave has these fields in phase by interoducing the >concept of a free electron cloud in which the antenna is embedded. We >should note that a receiving antenna has the same phase relationship as in >the transmitting antenna. > >He also points out that the context of the thread had not made the >specifics clear as to if we had been discussing transmission lines, >circuits, or free space waves. I agree here, and tired to clear exactly >this aspect of the discussion up, to no avail. > >Ted points out in his post that he wishes that no students be misled or >suffer setbacks be reading the discussion. > >I cannot see how this is relavent in a "free energy" list, as conventional >wisdom does not permit free energy. Members of this liast server are here >because we suspect that conventional wisdom may not know all it claims to. >if you are a student, you should not accept anything you read on this list >for the same reasons. > >While Ted correctly describes the phase condition in the antenna, his >description of the free space wave is dependant on this free electron cloud >concept. > >I would like to clarify this possition by asking if this free electron >cloud is beleived to exist in a vaccum, where electromagnetic waves appear >to operate just as they do in normal conditions? Can we describe the >launching of an EM wave with an in phase condition from an antenna with a >90 degrees phase difference without the free electron cloud? EM waves will >propogate without such a free electron cloud, will they not? > >Do these EM waves have mass? If not, how do they transmit force accross a >vaccum? And what happend to F=MA? T.E. Bearden adresses exactly this in >some of his earlier works, which are in my opinion his best. His later >material is quite a different matter altogether. > >In this forum, we should be forwarding our personal views and theories, not >protecting the minds of students who might "suffer setbacks" from reading >material presented here. We are not here to promote the standard views, >nor to protect unsuspecting students. Why defend the classical model on a >free energy list when classical teachings tell us free energy is >impossible? > >Also, I'm still looking for anyone other than myself to produce referances >on this subject rather than simply stating their beleifs. Please do >provide these referances. I'd rather learn something than not, and am >uninterested in dogma in any form, pro or against my possition. > > > > > Something is seriously wrong here. This whole reply is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what I had written. And I am at a loss as to how my words generated this misunderstanding. In NO manner did I mention or imply a "free electron cloud" in "free space." I ONLY spoke of the sloshing of the free electrons within the physical conductor that is the antenna. It is the sloshing (oscillation) of the electrons WITHIN the antenna that generate the E-M wave. Once the E-M wave is created it is sustained without the need for charged particles. Now, I won't pretend to understand the more esoteric why's and wherefore's of what is an E-M wave really, really, really or what medium or lack of medium sustains it. I am only asserting that the E component and the B (M) component in a Hertzian wave are IN phase and orthogonal to each other. I humbly supported my position with a prosaic explanation that summed up what I learned from class studies and casual reading of varied sources over the past 30 plus years. Surely I cannot be alone in noting the ironic contradiction in both demanding references and decrying dogma. Dogma is the perverse, selective, cloudy crystallization of "accepted" references. Someday soon Over-Unity and Free-Energy devices will become a commonly accepted part of our ordinary lives. Soon after, prosaic, roughly correct explanations of how they work will pass from ordinary person to ordinary person. Physics is the study of observable phenomena. Rigorous mathematics is only a TOOL that allows us to explore, investigate, and share what we are studying. E-M waves are E-M waves. They were E-M waves before Maxwell derived his equations and they will continue to be E-M waves long after these equations are irreducibly confirmed or corrected. Any observable phenomena can be described uniquely at some simplified level using only the 1500 words of the VOA special english. Any researcher who is working on a problem and is unable to summarize it without resorting to complex mathematics or esoteric symbols is in serious trouble. Any poineer hot on the trail of a study that will revolutionize current dogma is in trouble if he cannot summarize the errant interpretation, the faults that lead to the misunderstanding, and, most importantly, the eureka realizations that lead to this remarkable knowledge. Ah, but back to the issue at hand. How can I participate in any provocative discussion to expand the boundaries of our knowledge when I cannot understand how the counterpoints to my earlier arguments were in any way derived from these arguments? I say, gentlemen, what we have here is a failure to communicate... -- Bye... Ted.. Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:19:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21854 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:19:05 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21813 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:18:58 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21356; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:18:57 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:18:55 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Devices Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Devices To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:24:18 -0600 (CST) > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 15:50:19 +0200 > From: Stephan.Clerc@psi.ch (STEPHAN H.-R. CLERC) > > In order to enlarge Zack's list: > Keely motor > Strader machine This is a great idea, a summary list of anonmalous devices and inventions. I have some things to add to the list also. How about a brief paragraph describing what the thing is or does, or patent numbers, etc. Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:19:50 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA22137 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:19:46 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA22107 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:19:42 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21389; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:19:39 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:19:38 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Tin Foil Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: 08 Dec 95 20:24:20 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> Subject: Tin Foil... >Finally heard back from AllFoil. No lick they said that the only way I would >be able to get it is to special order it. Which means that I would have to >by a bulk amount, like 10 tons. Why can't aluminum be used here? I saw the file on the cap with the hollow center - it did say tinfoil and not aluminum. Is there supposed to be something intrinsically good about tin in this application besides the difficulty of soldering to aluminum foil? If soldering is all it is, try one of the solutions I've found with the help of others here - solder under Liquid Wrench, or use aluminum solder and the special flux. It works. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:20:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA22427 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:20:37 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA22403 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:20:33 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21462; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:20:31 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:20:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 22:51:48 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil At 10:37 PM 12/6/95 -0500, you wrote: > > I'm building the Tesla coil featured in the September 1991 Radio > Electronics. Some of you may remember this coil as the one wound on a > polyethylene paint container? It uses a solid state driver circuit. > Anyway, I've been unable to obtain the specified ferrite transformer cores > and bobbins recommended by the author, and have been making substitutions > (and therein lies the problem). > > Question: have any of you on this list built this coil, or ones similar? > I'd like to tap your experiences and expertise on the subject, please. > > Bert > > > > > Tesla built some of his coils on a set of vertical struts, keeping capacitive effects to a minimum, and air is a lot better at healing itself if there is a discharge where there shouldn't be, than PE or plastic or whatever. Note that if you make every other groove deeper, in a strut to wind the secondary on, then looking down on it from the top, the wires will make an 'X' pattern between struts, and that is supposed to reduce the capacitance between windings or something. I don't think you'll find that in any books. It comes from someone who is simply an excellent observer, and knew what he was seeing in the old pictures, with his knowledge from building several coils. Haven't seen the article you're talking about, sorry, can't help there. Also haven't seen a solid state coil that could really deliver much in the way of impressive effects. Let me know if it promises a quiet discharge of a couple inches or more. Not hearing the spark gap would be a plus, and hopefully then you can tinker around with the tuning. If it takes a control input from a signal generator (sine wave) and lets you alter that (triangle wave?) to see what happens to the output, that would be interesting. Gary --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:21:17 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA22624 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:21:14 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA22570 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:21:07 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21495; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:21:06 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 23:22:52 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force >of experiments with a metal rod conductor immersed in a conductive >fluid (mercury, or saline solution). With high amperage passing >through the solution the metal rod is found to move in a longitudinal >direction. Maybe an oversimplification, but is this not simply along the lines of magnetic welding, where a couple of parts to be welded together are placed next to each other, and a massive current sent through them. The current forces the two together while the welding takes place by that same current. The two parts are drawn together. The metal rod of Graneau would be in the position of one of those parts, since its conductivity is likely higher (or am I wrong here) than the saline solution or mercury. Certainly it is DC that he is using, and he didn't say which direction the metal rod moves. If what I am saying is correct, it would move either direction from center. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:22:03 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA22876 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:22:01 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA22812 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:21:50 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21536; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:21:49 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:21:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 22:04:35 -0800 From: drted@ix.netcom.com (Ted Viens) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com IB wrote: > > >>I believe you have reached an incorrect conclusion. All of the discussion >>to date has been from the top down, conceptually; arguments based on >>transmission lines and antennae. My approach is from the bottom up; >>arguing from Maxwell's equations. >> >>Jumping right in, we have curl B =(e0) -dE/dt. >> >... >> >>E and B fields are 90 degrees out of phase in EM waves in free space. >> > >This is also the way I learned it gang! (Plus its nicely graspable >intuitively, which is usually worth something) Maybe if we just take a vote >we can achieve democratic science at any rate. > >-IB > > Humans are such strange creatures. Forgive my failure to respond with more rigorous mathematical wanderings. I have always been too lazy to pursue my mathematical studies and I deleted my copy of mathCAD to make more room on my hard drive. Half a lifetime ago, I sat in my freshman EE courses and spent several days in class pursuing the mathematical treatment of the creation of E-M waves by the actions of moving charges in a conductor. For some reason, foggy to me now, the rigorous study derived the electric field and the magnetic field being in phase and orthogonal to each other. Something radical must have happened in the realms of mathematics and physics in the past twenty so years. Are these faults within the stars or within ourselves? I must fault both of these replies for their failure to lay a foundation for both the terms and the underlying phenomena in the formula they offer. Do these formula apply only to free space? Are any of these formula presuming a nearby conductor? Even further, forgive my pursuing another prosaic defense of the accepted model of an E-M wave in free space. E-M waves are an observable phenomena not a conceptual derivation of abstact mathematics. As with any phenomena, they have both coarse and esoteric characteristics. Selective techniques have been known for nearly as long as the waves have been known to study either their E component or their M component. These are the most rudimentary characterstics of the E-M wave. What mistakes have decades of researchers made in their testing techniques, their data, and the mathematical studies of their data that has permitted them to perpetuate such a fundamental error in their description of the phase of the E and M components? How can so many sources of knowledge be so basically wrong? This phase relationship has never been the fiat of some heavenly ordained council of scientific wizards. It has been the observed phenomena of a small army of often unkown researchers often bringing some original technique to their studies. Where are the eureka moments of the fortunate scientist whose unique repeatable experimental approach has blown the covers off of this prevailing "mistaken description?" I have no personal concern with the phase relationship of the E and M components of an E-M wave. If anyone could demonstrate the devices and techniques used by any researcher in measuring a 90 degree phase difference between the E and M components, I would be happy to study them. I would even have a casual interest in the demonstration of where, in the traditional mathematical derivation of the E-M wave, a 90 degree mistake was made. But PLEASE don't flood me with complex and convulted mathematical derivations. I have neither the talent nor the time to comfirm the appropriateness or correctness of these studies. I can certainly understand a description of practical experiment where a scientist would point out a measurement dipping where we would expect it to peak. And I could also follow a casual symbolic explanation of why this is so and has never been realized before... -- Bye... Ted.. Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:22:40 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA23041 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:22:35 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA23013 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:22:31 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21581; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:22:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:22:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Prozac Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 23:59:05 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Prozac >And, todays hint : Making capacitors out of carbon loaded ink is making >really, really, really low Q capacitors. Is this desirable? What's a gravity >capacitor? Something that stores gravity :) But if you really have to use >this, buy activated charcoal from the aquarium supply store. Grind it up, >and load your ink! Might get it down to a few ohms per square. > Today's clarification on somebody's today's hint: What is "Q", for those who don't know? Well, some will tell you it's very hard to explain. Everything has a resonant frequency, including an electrical circuit. Q is simply how well something *rings* at that frequency. A bell that rings longer than another one has a higher "Q", so to speak. Resistance lowers the Q of a circuit. Carbon has a pretty doggone high resistance. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:23:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA23385 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:23:26 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA23285 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:23:12 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21628; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:23:08 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:23:08 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: frng: Put the music on hold a second please... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Sat, 09 Dec 1995 00:24:41 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: frng: Put the music on hold a second please... >As this list server's intent (as explained to me by it's originator) is a >focus on practical hands on experimentation, I would like to suggest we >forward physical experiments to resolve these issues. Theoretical debate >does have its merits despite some opinions to the contrary, but emperical >evidence goes much further for the same bandwidth. Ditto that. Perfectly said. --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:24:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA23962 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:24:51 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA23888 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:24:39 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21669; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:24:14 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:24:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: biefeld-brown-effect- I tried the experiment (no luck). Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FORWARDED FROM NEWSGROUP From: ghobson@xmission.com Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Subject: Re: biefeld-brown-effect- I tried the experiment (no luck). Date: Sat, 09 Dec 95 01:16:52 GMT Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900) Lines: 47 Message-ID: <4aao24$1s5e_001@slc18.xmission.com> References: <4a1ug7$e18@hera.hrz.th-zwickau.de> <818277517snz@oroboros.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slc18.xmission.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 >> Does anyone know facts on a so called biefeld (or bielfeld?)-brown-effect? >> Are there any books, articles etc.? >> I believe it is about gravity... >> I would enjoy answers. >> Thanks >> >This is the (supposed) effect where a charged parallel plate capacitor >exhibits a thrust in the direction of the positive plate. The effect >is only apparent at potentials in excess of 100kV. It is part of the >(psuedo?) science of electro-gravitics. For information to anyone interested I tried an experiment several years ago. I hung a 3 foot diameter acrylite disk with aluminum foil taped to it by its edge from the ceiling by lite monfilament fishing line, and charged it to 120 kvdc using a very large oil-filled dental xray transformer, rectified by a very large kenotron tube. The charging lead wires were very fine 36 awg copper wire, and I went to considerable effort to eliminate any air motion in the room, including wearing a mask for my breathing. Deflections were measured by a pendulum reference (it was on about 8 feet of line, and by a light beam reflected off a tiny mirror taped to one side. When energized the hole thing cracked and produced a lot of ozone and corona, and it obviously had small forces acting on it to slowly rotate it on the line, but it soon became clear that the corona discharge from the edges of the foil and the electrostatic forces from small assymetries in the tiny lead wires were the only things doing the moving. I sealed the edges of the foil with corona dope and got the lead wires as straight as possible, and the motions went way down in amplitude (they were weak to start with. I was pretty disappointed, and tried quite a number of variations over a week or so before I took it all apart and went onto other things. If there *is* any effect, it must take a *hell* of a lot of voltage to produce any usable effect! I vote no on that one. -- ===================================+================================== Eaton/Cutler-Hammer Corp. Industrial Optoelectronics 720 80th St. SW voice: 1-800-426-9184 Everett, WA 98203-6299 fax: 1-206-347-0544 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:25:21 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA24081 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:25:12 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA23983 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:24:56 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21729; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:24:49 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:24:49 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:26:12 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. On 7 Dec 95 at 8:32, Zack Widup wrote: > > > > > >There is only one form of energy in the universe. It consists of the > >kinetic energy (energy of movement) of electromagnetic field lines. > >Careful analysis of all other forms will reveal that they consist of > >the above mentioned. This includes mass, gravity, and nuclear energy. > >This will all become clear in this current decade. > >Robin van Spaandonk > > What is an electromagnetic field? What is an electromagnetic field line? > How do you define them? > > Zack When everything is reduced to a single form, you either accept that it exists or you don't. Demanding that it be reduced to an even simpler form is meaningless. Your question above, can be translated as "prove existance". This is impossible, because the whole notion of "proof" is based upon reduction of the complex to the simple. And I'm afraid a single form is as simple as it gets. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:26:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA24443 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:26:11 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA24421 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:26:05 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21816; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:26:02 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:26:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:26:12 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. On 7 Dec 95 at 11:50, Charles Hope wrote: [snip] > > There is only one form of energy in the universe. It consists of the > > kinetic energy (energy of movement) of electromagnetic field lines. > > Careful analysis of all other forms will reveal that they consist of > > the above mentioned. This includes mass, gravity, and nuclear energy. > > This will all become clear in this current decade. > > Robin van Spaandonk > > Does this include the energy of the chargeless neutrino, or potential > energies against the gravitational, strong nuclear, or weak fields? > Yes, on all counts. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:27:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA24855 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:27:36 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA24838 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:27:33 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21901; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:27:31 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:27:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Bane" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 13:06:24 CST6 Subject: Re: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil I was also unable to find all of the parts... recently i ran acrros a simler design that used a solid state oscilator and a colour television flyback coil... i have gotten most of it built although i still have not had the time to test it out. i recently got an inverter form INFORMATION UNLIMITED. (yes they are still arround and their prices aren't that bad.) It has an output of aobut 10KV... the current is pretty low so it is about the same as a cattle prod. I am able to get a small jacobs ladder effect with it. If i can get a plazma flow at least a centimeter long I will start doing some magnetic field experiments on it. _________________________________________ | . | | /_\ | | | | I am the plastic, I am the end. | | I am the ego you cannot defend. | |________________________________________| From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:28:24 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA25139 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:28:22 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA25122 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:28:18 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA21939; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:28:17 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:28:16 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Bane" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 13:11:23 CST6 Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield i have an idea but no real information... Remember Tesla's last invention. Dubbed the Machine to End all War, or the Tesla Howtzer. I guess it set up a shell of ionized particals that could shild shockwaves, projectiles and even nuclear fallout. I read it in an artical some years ago and you know you deatils get with time. If you have heard anything about this artical and can get your hands on it please share.... -ian geiser _________________________________________ | . | | /_\ | | | | I am the plastic, I am the end. | | I am the ego you cannot defend. | |________________________________________| From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:32:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26616 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:32:39 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA26598 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:32:36 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA22812; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:32:34 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:32:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: No mailstorm... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Looks like aat.eng.co.za isn't auto-spamming the list. And I think the problem MAY be solved, since a new security feature on majordomo prevents non-subscribers from sending messages here. If majordomo does decide that the returned messages are from .za and not from the original senders, then the problem is solved. For now the manual forwarding and "moderate" hold is off again, and all messages will be distrubuted to the list subscribers immediately. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:35:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27679 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:35:52 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA27641 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:35:45 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA23300; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:35:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:35:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: John Bedini: box-size Tesla-type converter schematics anyone? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Forwarded message, reply to connyo@oden.se *** Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:38:29 -0600 From: Conny Ohstrom To: bilb@eskimo.com Subject: John Bedini: box-size Tesla-type converter schematics anyone? While reading a exelent book called: "Dr. NIEPER's Revolution in Technology Medicine and Society" ISBN 3-925188-07-X. (M.I.T. Management Interessengemeinschaft f=FCr Tachyonen-Feld-Energie GmbH. Friedrich-R=FCder-Strasse 1, 2900 Oldenburg, Germany) I say in one of the articles in the book that, one Mr John Bedini attended the Tesla Centennial Symposium in Colorado Springs, CO, on August 11, 1984. There he talked about a free energy generator, that he instead of trying to get it patened, he put it into hands of the public. 26 persons have been succesfully been duplicated his machine. Then he talked about an inexpensive, cigarr-box size Tesla-type converter which he had recently built. Bedini presented the schematic diagram showing how to build the solid-state device, and then released copies of the schematic diagram. Now I wonder if any of you Tesla-fans have this schematic? Stored in your computer? Send me? please! From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:40:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA29490 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:40:52 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA29448 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:40:44 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA23745; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 15:39:09 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 15:39:08 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: Free Energy Discussion List Subject: fnrg: Biefeld_Brown results yet? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As I recall, there was more than one on this list actively gearing up for Biefeld-Brown research? I am anxious to hear about the state of things! Any news? Charles Hope From Skronk@gnn.com Sat Dec 9 17:55:21 1995 Received: from mail-e1b.gnn.com (mail-e1b.gnn.com [204.148.101.57]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA29833 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:55:20 -0800 Received: from www-22-246.gnn.com. (www-22-246.gnn.com [205.188.22.246]) by mail-e1b.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA29751 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:54:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512100154.UAA29751@mail-e1b.gnn.com> X-Mailer: GNNmessenger 1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 Dec 1995 20:53:45 From: Paul Lamb To: bilb@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield Status: RO X-Status: Perhaps something designed to recognize a universal component of matter, such as protons, quarks, perhaps even spin or parity patterns. Just a thought. Skronk@aol.com (Paul Lamb) >X-State: 3 >X-Total-length: 2268 >Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com > [204.122.16.4]) by mail-e1a.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP > id PAA24573 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 15:25:57 > -0500 (EST) >Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com > (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA16365 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, > 9 Dec 1995 11:59:20 -0800 >Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) > by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA16334 > for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 > 11:59:13 -0800 >Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA20275; Sat, 9 Dec > 1995 11:59:12 -0800 >X-UIDL: 818560088.002 >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:59:11 -0800 (PST) >From: William Beaty >To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com >Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield >In-Reply-To: > >Message-ID: > >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Sender: owner-freenrg-list@eskimo.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > > >> Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:08:22 -0500 mob@MindSpring.COM > (Michael O'Bannon) >> At 6:45 PM 12/6/95, Andrew Cantino wrote: >> >> >Ok, I want a forcefield that will repell *ALL* matter. > Magnetic and >> >nonmagnetic. Any ideas? >> > Andrew -- >> >> So do I, Andrew. > >But nobody knows how to do this. If it's possible at all, > then the key is >hidden in undiscovered areas of physics. Which I suspect > are huge, and >are all around us unseen. Conventional researchers have > many advantages, >but a major disadvantage is the belief that 99.9% of physics > is >discovered, that the unknowns only exist in exotic places > (like high >energy particle physics) and that anything unconventional or > "weird" is >obviously wrong and deserves ridicule. And so, the > hobbyists and amateurs >have a big chance to explore areas where conventional > researchers dare not >go. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ > uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 > cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer > http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE > HOBBYIST web page > > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:57:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA04155 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:57:34 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA04142 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:57:30 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA24841; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:57:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 12:57:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Devices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) > Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Devices > To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:24:18 -0600 (CST) > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 15:50:19 +0200 > > From: Stephan.Clerc@psi.ch (STEPHAN H.-R. CLERC) > > > > In order to enlarge Zack's list: > > Keely motor > > Strader machine > > > This is a great idea, a summary list of anonmalous devices and > inventions. I have some things to add to the list also. > How about a brief paragraph describing what the thing is or > does, or patent numbers, etc. I've seen this happen before. Let's call it "spontaneous generation of FAQ." What's really being discussed here is the creation of a "Frequently Asked Questions" file for overunity inventions. Great idea! Once it get's going we can put it on the list webpage and distribute it as needed when new users ask what the heck we're all discussing. I'll stick all our contributions together in a file and periodically put it on the web page. Give me a couple of minutes and I'll put the current list there at http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/devlist.html .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 13:40:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16422 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 13:40:13 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA16357 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 13:40:05 -0800 Received: from t7.dialup.peg.apc.org (t12.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.140]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id IAA01997 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 08:39:36 +1000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 08:39:36 +1000 Message-Id: <199512092239.IAA01997@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: fnrg: Re: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:23:40 +1000 >To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com >From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) >Subject: Re: fnrg: Devices > >>Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:50:41 -600 (CST) >>From: Mark Mansfield >> >>On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Jim Francis wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> >Hey Guys, >>> > >>> >I'd like to see some things here about experiments with real devices and >>> >the results of them. Whast have you built? What did it do? >>> > >>> >Here's some I've been interested in but haven't had the time yet to >>> Searl's "Levity discs" >>> >The Stromerzeuger >>> >Variable-Reluctance transformers >>> > >>> >Any others? >>> > >>> >Zack >>> >w9sz@prairienet.org >>> >>> Yes... apart from Tesla coils which I used to build when I owned an >>> electronics research lab there's one other device that fascinates me. It >>> stores the mental energy of a "human gaze" (sort of focussed mind-power) and >>> converts it into mechanical energy. There are apparently 2 Czechoslovakian >>> patents on this device in favour of one Robert Pavlita. I saw a video clip >>> if this device here in Australia some years ago and have been trying >>> (half-heartedly) to track it down ever since. >>> Anyone got any info?? >>> Jim >>> >> >>Hello Jim, >>The device you are talking about, are there copies of the patents that can >>be had? I'm interested in this as well. You talk about the "human gaze", >>is this the one where you have a mirror that reflects your image behind you >>in a darken, indirectly lighted black wall? This is quite interesting and >>might be possible with a "infinity mirror". Are you familiar with the >>infinity mirror? >> >>Mark Mark, I've just been put onto NEW SCIENCE RESEARCH REPORTS - a British crowd who appear to have collected literally hundreds of current and obscure scientific (also mystical)reference works. They have a whole screed of articles on psychotronics, tesla, time-distortion units, etc. In fact I've just printed out their list of products which all have only a 1 or 2 line descriptions and there are 19 pages of these!! I'm impressed. Think some of the people on this list might be fascinated ..... address is http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/reports/ Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 14:31:03 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02612 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:30:49 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA02581 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:30:43 -0800 Received: from t7.dialup.peg.apc.org (t12.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.140]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id JAA07574 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 09:30:13 +1000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 09:30:13 +1000 Message-Id: <199512092330.JAA07574@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Dat>>>> > >>>> >Here's some I've been interested in but haven't had the time yet to >>>> Searl's "Levity discs" >>>> >The Stromerzeuger >>>> >Variable-Reluctance transformers >>>> > >>>> >Any others? >>> >>>Hello Jim, >>>The device you are talking about, are there copies of the patents that can >>>be had? I'm interested in this as well. You talk about the "human gaze", >>>is this the one where you have a mirror that reflects your image behind you >>>in a darken, indirectly lighted black wall? This is quite interesting and >>>might be possible with a "infinity mirror". Are you familiar with the >>>infinity mirror? >>> >>>Mark There are a batch of reports put out by the Australian Lateral thinking Newsletter called "Natures Anomalies". One of the shortest is about an experiment in time by a top Russian Physicist. It's about one and a half A4 pages long. If its of any real interest to members of this group I've got quite a few of them, but they're a bit long for general posting. here's a copy of this "time" one: Dr. Nikolai Kozyrev and his 'time' machine Older readers may recall the stir created in the scientific world by the Soviet Union's most renowned astrophysicist, Dr. N. Kozyrev when he announced that there was volcanic activity on the moon in the crater named Alphonsus. The scientific community was very sceptical but eventually Nasa confirmed his findings. His reputation was made. So when this very same scientist came up with a startling new theory of time, the scientific community sat up straight. After many years of research he concluded that time was a form of energy ! Some 17 years earlier he had wondered how telepathic thoughts could be transferred from one person to another instantaneously. He was curious as to what sort of energy could be involved. So his brilliant mind enabled him to conceive a rather fantastic instrument based around a gyroscope, a torsion balance and an asymmetrical pendulum. The resultant "device" enabled him to measure this strange new energy, which turned out to be time !!! He found that time is "thinner" near the cause of an event and "thicker" near the effect of the event. One of his experiments involved stretching an elastic band mechanically by a machine. His device deflected to point toward the "effect" end of the elastic. It indicated that there had been an increase in density of time! Organic "events" give particularly good results - the burning of sugar is a favourite experiment he uses when demonstrating to other members of the scientific community. He shielded his experiment against all known forces and electromagnetic fields and found this new effect still occurred, regardless. And the interesting point is that the effect acts upon the measuring instrument at a distance. The gyroscope pendulum is affected without any conventional known force acting upon it. He further found that the quality of his thoughts affected the experiment. When he filled his thinking with the emotion of poetry the equipment measured more of a change than when he thought of mathematical equations. From this it is reasonable to conclude that thoughts may change the density of time. After all these years of research he concludes that it is likely that telepathy changes the "density of time". Time would be "thin" near the sender and "thicker" around the receiver. And as time appears instantaneously everywhere this could account for the reason telepathy is also instantaneous. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT TIME IS MODULATED BY THOUGHT, IN THE SAME WAY THAT A RADIO CARRIER WAVE IS MODULATED BY THE RADIO PROGRAMME THE STATION IS SUPERIMPOSING ON IT !!! What he was actually looking at was a psychokinetic effect. The flexing of an elastic band caused his instruments to react at a distance. He also found that he obtained much more pronounced effects when the weather was cold and stable and the landscape was covered with snow. He further suspected that time has a pattern of flow and a rate of flow. As the rate of time flow thru a substance varies, weight is lost. He feels this could be the answer to the scientific dilemma of levitation! Various psychokinetic experts such as Uri Geller have been tested under laboratory conditions in this respect and have measurably reduced the weight of light objects by thought-power alone. While all this might sound like fairy-tale material, the US scientific community have taken it seriously. The research continues.............!! NOTHING IS WHAT IT SEEMS !! From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 17:42:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA26571 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:42:23 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA26563 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:42:20 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA22304 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:32:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA24718; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:42:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:42:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512100142.TAA24718@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >> What is an electromagnetic field? What is an electromagnetic field line? >> How do you define them? >> >> Zack >When everything is reduced to a single form, you either accept that >it exists or you don't. Demanding that it be reduced to an even simpler >form is meaningless. Your question above, can be translated as "prove >existance". This is impossible, because the whole notion of "proof" >is based upon reduction of the complex to the simple. And I'm afraid >a single form is as simple as it gets. >Robin van Spaandonk All I wanted was a definition. Everything can be defined, and if you can't define it, then you don't know what it is. Zack From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 17:54:43 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA29696 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:54:41 -0800 Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA29676 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:54:38 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA22860 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:45:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA26943; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:54:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:54:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512100154.TAA26943@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: re: forcefield Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > >i have an idea but no real information... > >Remember Tesla's last invention. Dubbed the Machine to End all War, >or the Tesla Howtzer. I guess it set up a shell of ionized particals >that could shild shockwaves, projectiles and even nuclear fallout. I >read it in an artical some years ago and you know you deatils get >with time. If you have heard anything about this artical and can get >your hands on it please share.... > >-ian geiser > Hi Ian et al, Tom Bearden wrote a good deal about this in several of his papers. E.g. "The Solution To Tesla's Secrets and The Soviet Tesla Weapons", "STAR WARS NOW! The Bohm-Aharonov Effect..." and others. A different viewpoint was also presented by him in THE EXCALIBUR BRIEFING. I found that after reading THE MANY-WORLDS INTERPRETATION OF QUANTUM MECHANICS by Hugh Everitt III, I understood better what Bearden was trying to say in THE EXCALIBUR BRIEFING. The explanation makes sense; however, given that none of us have seen working devices of the type he describes, I'd have to assume the Soviets spent many man-hours of very secret research and many rubles to pull it off if it did exist in Saryshagan or wherever! Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 20:08:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA02339 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:08:26 -0800 Received: from ix3.ix.netcom.com (ix3.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA02327 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:08:23 -0800 Received: from by ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id UAA23166; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:05:59 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:05:59 -0800 Message-Id: <199512100405.UAA23166@ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Biefeld_Brown... To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: . . . >After this was discussed the two experimenters engaged in this >research on this list stopped updating us. Clearly they were silenced >by the Majestic-12. I'm sure they're lying in ditches somewhere. > . . . 12/9/95 What does this paragraph mean? RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 21:08:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA16619 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:08:01 -0800 Received: from ix9.ix.netcom.com (ix9.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.9]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA16594 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:07:57 -0800 Received: from by ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA04445; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:06:36 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:06:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199512100506.VAA04445@ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: EM waves - Third Component? To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 12/8/95 Hello All, I posed the question, prior to the EM wave phase digression, that since the E and M field vectors cross zero at the same time where does the wave energy go at zero crossing. As obscure as it may be, I intuitively feel that the energy (1.) may be transferred into another physical form or field that has been ignored or hasn't been discovered, (2.) it is transferred into another dimension that we aren't able to sense or (3.) it is related (dare I say it, Mr. Shannon) to a scalar field. Mr. Bailey also noted that the wave seems to be propagated in half wave chunks as opposed to smooth energy transitions in other systems. His example was the smooth transfer of kinetic and potential energy in mechanical systems. Mr. Bailey also postulated another 1st derivative of the EM wave and questioned what it might be. I answered in my post of 12/3/95. Taking a cue from the right hand rule of electromotive force in motor and generator action, I proposed that E and M may be related to Force. I proposed that F be placed orthogonally a t 90 degrees to E and M and vibrate longitudnally. I also proposed a way of graphically representing EM&F in a dynamic cine loop. I DID NOT define force, present a mathematical relationship of EM&F or propose experiment al proof. But, invite others to do so. Neither have I addressed # 2. or # 3. above. There are others far more advanced in these areas so please feel free. The following is a repost: 12/3/95 Right on Bill. Excellent observations. Energy cannot cease to exist at certain points and then suddenly be recreated de noveau at other points. There is probably a smooth energy continuum and (1.) we've either ignored or havn't discovered it, or (2.) our senses are not evolved allowing us to observe this phenomenon. This leads to the postulation that Maxwell's equations may still be incomplete. After all, they are only mathmatical models we use to explain real phenomena. By the way, the nice sinusodal curves drawn to represent EM wave components represent field strength vectors. >So, what is the third wave? Let's persue the first explaination above. Look at your right hand. Remember the right hand rule for electromagnetic force fields. Yes, there are three orthogonal fields -- electric, magnetic and force. Remember, the force provided or exerted on a conducting conductor moving through a magnetic field in a generator or motor? Have we ignored Force all along? All this is too simple or is it? Can we set up an experiment to dynamically measure these relationships? Perhaps drive a body(s) with variable synchronised E and M fields while measuring force imparted on the body. Then can we derive an equation(s) that relates F to E and M fields in experimentally measured data? How can we visualize these three orthogonal fields? Time usually occupies the x axis when we represent an EM wave statically (y and z axes represent the E and M fields). I suggest that F be placed on the x axis and time intervals be represented dynamically by frames in a cine loop. I envision the F field buldging in an out in some type of sinusoidal oscillation synchronized (but not necessarily in phase) with the E and M oscillations. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 18:13:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA04649 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 18:13:08 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA04629 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 18:13:05 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA23375; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:11:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:11:35 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Biefeld_Brown... In-Reply-To: <951209230113_76216.2421_HHB40-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 9 Dec 1995, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Charles - > > >"As I recall, there was more than one on this list actively gearing up for > >Biefeld-Brown research? I am anxious to hear about the state of things! > >Any news?" > > I'm pretty close to getting my HV generator finished. Should produce well up > from 100kv. I haven't begun any capacitor construction yet, but I will as soon > as I complete the generator. I have a few ideas to try out that may be > different than the usual experiments. I want to get something running with a > high k dielectric if I can, and explore other ways of magnifying any possible > effects. I'm think the effects do exist, opinion based on a personal survey of > some published and some unpublished verbal information I have recieved. I'll > post as I progress. I'm not sure if you were here when we were discussing simple ways to determine whether or not the Biefeld-Brown effect was due to ion wind or not. We decided that the best way to do that would be to shield each capacitor plate in some sort of casing, thus trapping the ions in and preventing ion wind flow between the plates. Puthoff and company tried this years ago and they got negative results: with the capacitor plates so shielded the effect disappeared. After this was discussed the two experimenters engaged in this research on this list stopped updating us. Clearly they were silenced by the Majestic-12. I'm sure they're lying in ditches somewhere. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > Charles Hope From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 11:53:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA21024 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:53:14 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA20989 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:53:08 -0800 Message-Id: <199512101953.LAA20989@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 13:19:46 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Perl Programmer out there? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty's site, and the KeelyNet, among others, are so vast that we could use a web page search form that would take a keyword and return a clickable list of the files containing that word. Does anyone know Perl or Unix well enough to put one together, or know where to find one? I have one that is close but needs to be modified in case someone would like to take a shot at it. Please email me directly about it. Gary ghawk@eskimo.com --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 13:07:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA10750 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 13:07:22 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA10734 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 13:07:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199512102107.NAA10734@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:34:38 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force in Welding? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >... the current flow is parallel/longitudinal with the >force, then it is something entirely different, and it might be the >same longitudinal force that Graneau has described. That's the one. If you were to try to pull apart two wires with a lot of current going through them, at a high enough voltage to keep flow occuring once a gap is established, you would find (once settled into your new digs on the other side of the vail :) that there was a force trying to pull the two wire ends together. >Do you have any more information about this effect? Not. But I don't think it has to be DC, come to think of it, for the effect to be seen. I think 60 cycles is relatively slow enough, so you can probably see it with a neon sign transformer. Hope that's right. Gary --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 23:10:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA14866 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 23:10:05 -0800 Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA14844 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 23:10:01 -0800 Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA29730 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 02:16:37 -0500 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 02:16:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199512100716.CAA29730@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: Poynting Vector Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings: Mr Wall writes : "I answered in my post of 12/3/95. Taking a cue from the right hand rule of electromotive force in motor and generator action, I proposed that E and M may be related to Force. I proposed that F be placed orthogonally a t 90 degrees to E and M and vibrate longitudnally. I also proposed a way of graphically representing EM&F in a dynamic cine loop. I DID NOT define force, present a mathematical relationship of EM&F or propose experiment al proof. But, invite others to do so. Neither have I addressed # 2. or # 3. above. There are others far more advanced in these areas so please feel free." Interestingly enough, someone may have beaten you to the punch. John Henry Poynting ( 1852-1914 ) conceived of just such a vector, obtained by taking the cross product of the E & B field vectors, which you will see referred to as S. The poynting vector is orthagonal to E & B ( due to the cross product ) and has the dimension of power ( much like multiplying current and voltage... ). I mention this because of your comment concerning where energy goes at the zero crossing. Well, considering that there is no electric or magnetic field present, the power flowing at that point is zero ( magnitude of S = 0 ). Energy is stored in these fields: where there is no field there is no energy. I suppose that by some massaging of the Lorentz force law you could come up with a force vector, but I doubt you could get it to be non-zero at the zero crossing. Actually, you've hit on an interesting point here, in that I have seen many theories regarding the relation between electromagnetic fields and forces on charged particles ( see for example the work of Dr. Peter Graneau, or E. Whittakers book on the history of the aether theories ). The standard physics dogma recognizes the Lorentz law, but it's easy to create very counterintuitive situations applying this law. Graneau claims that at high current densities a longitudinal force is created, which is predicted by the Ampere-Newman force laws. But believe me, right around the turn of the century it seems everyone and his brother had a theory. This stuff gets really convoluted, best read Graneau's book and Whittakers... Well, enough for today. K. PS : To Mr. Viens - yes, I appreciate the irony. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 23:14:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA15707 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 23:14:05 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA15687 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 23:14:01 -0800 Received: from t26.dialup.peg.apc.org (t26.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.154]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id SAA08858 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 18:13:37 +1000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 18:13:37 +1000 Message-Id: <199512100813.SAA08858@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Psychic meters Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> (half-heartedly) to track it down ever since. >>>> Anyone got any info?? >>>> Jim > > >Someone I know has a meter from a surplus sale, that reacts >when almost anyone looks at it for awhile. No power. No joke. >It was made for an entirely different purpose. And I had a home- >made voltage meter of the plug-in type that I left on all the time, >because it did some funny things sometimes. The most consistant >little problem it had, is that whenever I was in a state of duress, >like trying to find a box of rivets or an allen wrench or whatever, >that I *knew* was there (you know the routine), this meter would >start to react, and if it was a really bad day it would peg out for >brief moments. Unfortunately, later, during a move, it passed away. > >Gary Hawkins >--------------------------------------------------- >Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today >http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA > Gary, the Russians discovered that most PK effects are caused while the brain is predominantly producing THETA activity. Strangely enough the brain also produces large doses of theta when annoyed, frustrated or supressing rage. You've probably noticed when you've been playing a slot machine for a while and it hasn't paid...you decide in total disgust to give it one last spin before walking away. You "let go" your PK field round the machine and it cheerfully pays out. There is also considerable evidence to indicate that a local PK field builds around the machine and can "linger' for several minutes after you depart. If a slot is paying me well then "backs off" I walk away to let my field dissipate then return after some minutes. It usually fires again. Similarly if a high intensity PK player is having a great run on his machine then his field can overlap the machines on either side and often these pay out well too, which is why you quite often see several machines side by side going off together. If this subject is of interest grab a copy of MARGINS OF REALITY by Jahn and Dunne from Princeton University. They use quantum physics to postulate how and why the mind can affect random-number-generator micro-chips. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 02:36:45 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA16403 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 02:36:22 -0800 Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA16389 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 02:36:19 -0800 Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA28920; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 05:35:01 -0500 Date: 10 Dec 95 05:33:48 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Biefeld_Brown... Message-ID: <951210103348_76216.2421_HHB23-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles - You wrote: >I'm not sure if you were here when we were discussing simple ways to >determine whether or not the Biefeld-Brown effect was due to ion wind or >not. We decided that the best way to do that would be to shield each >capacitor plate in some sort of casing, thus trapping the ions in and >preventing ion wind flow between the plates. Puthoff and company tried >this years ago and they got negative results: with the capacitor plates so >shielded the effect disappeared. >After this was discussed the two experimenters engaged in this >research on this list stopped updating us. Clearly they were silenced by >the Majestic-12. I'm sure they're lying in ditches somewhere. No, was not here. Insulating the plates sounds like a good idea, not just for dousing wind effects but to be able to keep a stable charge and cut down on power drain. I had heard of some French experiments that were done in vacuum chambers years ago that reported success, and lately in the US there is yet another report of work commissioned by the USAF that show some positive results from a carefully prepared vacuum chamber intended to cancel both electrostatic and ionic effects. The brief I read on this described a residual force on some assymetrical electrodes in direction opposite to both ionic wind and the direction reported by TTB. I've got video of TTB working with assymetrical electrodes, and in it he appears to be having some success. It would stand to reason that BB could set up in either direction (as TTB also reported) if it is capable of netting out across a laminated cap, right? There are negative reports and there are positive reports. I'd like to see for myself on my own benchtop. I've got a few ideas that I think might have hold the possibility of not only isolating the effect if there is one, but also of amplifying it. Should be fun setting up and trying, anyway. I will keep the list here posted on the results I achieve, positive or negative. The nature of your comments regarding others who have investigated reports of this phenomena while posting to this list is duly noted. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 11:30:02 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14507 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:29:03 -0800 Received: from ix3.ix.netcom.com (ix3.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14478 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:28:56 -0800 Received: from by ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id LAA19586; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:26:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:26:29 -0800 Message-Id: <199512101926.LAA19586@ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Magnetron Tuning To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >>the anode cavities makes me wonder if a (very small) amount of tuning >>might be possible by altering the magnetic field. It would only be a tiny >>variation though if it was possible at all. > > >As in a Tesla Coil, detuned away from its natural resonance between >primary and secondary, the output (energy) delivered to the environment will >be diminished further and further as the optimum frequency in the >magnetron is deviated from, if a way to alter it can be found. > >I've heard the oven space itself is tuned with the magnetron. Wonder what >effect a large amount of food in that chamber has on the tuning situation. > >Gary Hawkins . . . . 12/10/95 The following is a repost of private email of a couple of weeks ago. Also, I am waiting on a catalog from Lamda Tehnologies of Raleigh N.C. They build tunable microwave generators. Message: 3 To: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) From: somlo@zeta.org.au (Peter Somlo) Subject: Re: Microwave Resonance Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:23:59 +1100 > >Thank you for your reply. I have a few more questions, if I may. > >Can a common microwave at 2.45 GHz be focused similar to a laser. Is >the microwave in phase and coherent similar to a maser. If incoherent >and out of phase can it be put into phase and cohered? Can it be used >as a carrier wave and modulated. pulsed? > >Gad! Seems as if I need your course. > >Thanks, > >RWW > >If you may wish to reply by Email > >rwall@ix.netcom.com > Hello! JUst a few quick answers: 1. The wavelength of the `cooking frequency' is about 12 cm, so to focus it, you need an antenna several wavewlength large (i.e. a microwave dish), so inside the oven this is not possible. Anyway cooking is done by multiple re-reflections of the oven wall passing through the food-item many times.. 2. Coherency: Being a single frequency, you'd think the microwave signal is coherent, but if the power supply is only roughly smoothed (regarding the AC component of the mains), the magnetron sniffs out and restarts 120 times a second (in the US with a 60 Hz mains freq.), so the magnetron IS pulsed in that sense, so the signal is not phase coherent. 3. In principle, you could pulse modulate the magnetron (a la radar) and send messages, but please don't tinker with your oven, they can be potentially lethal (1 kW is a sizeable microwave energy...) Cheers, Peter ------------- Dr Peter I Somlo FIEEE | M1: "Every coin has 3 sides - at least" Microwave Consultant | M2: "The wind ain't gonna blow from where it tel/fax: 61-2-451-2478 | ought'a, it'l blow from where it can" http://www.zeta.org.au/~soml Thanks, RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 12:19:44 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27187 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 12:19:07 -0800 Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27148 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 12:19:02 -0800 Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tOsD4-001W0nC; Sun, 10 Dec 95 14:18 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force in Welding? To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:18:57 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1397 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gary Hawkins writes about the Longitudinal EM Force/Graneau Effect: > Maybe an oversimplification, but is this not simply along the lines > of magnetic welding, where a couple of parts to be welded together > are placed next to each other, and a massive current sent through them. > The current forces the two together while the welding takes place > by that same current. > The two parts are drawn together. The metal rod of Graneau would > be in the position of one of those parts, since its conductivity is likely > higher (or am I wrong here) than the saline solution or mercury. > Certainly it is DC that he is using, and he didn't say which direction > the metal rod moves. If what I am saying is correct, it would move > either direction from center. > Gary Hawkins Hi Gary. I'm not familiar with resistance welding processes. But it seems to me that if the current is perpendicular to the force which pushes the two parts together -- it is Ampere's and Biot-Savart's Laws at work. But, if the current flow is parallel/longitudinal with the force, then it is something entirely different, and it might be the same longitudinal force that Graneau has described. Do you have any more information about this effect? Does the resistance welding industry have a name for it, or do you know of any articles written about it? Thanks. Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 13:33:06 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA17785 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 13:33:03 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA17763 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 13:32:59 -0800 From: KGSurfer@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA01301 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:31:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:31:41 -0500 Message-ID: <951210163139_69153651@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Mineshaft bobs Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I read an article on the web that I would like to find again >(lost my bookmarks). The article described an experiment >where plum bobs were lowered down two mineshafts, >two mineshafts that were connected by a horizontal passage >at the bottom of them, and it was assumed that the bobs would >be closer to each other than their suspension point on the surface, >but instead they hung further apart. >I'd like to find that article again in case any of you have seen it. >Gary Hawkins http://www.ibg.uu.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/unclass/index.html There are two files that contain the entire story. They are called Center1.asc and Center2.asc K. Seuferer From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 13:21:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA26954 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:18:57 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA26836 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:18:36 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA28811; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:17:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:17:54 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:50:25 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: clarification on EM waves, etc. On 9 Dec 95 at 19:42, Zack Widup wrote: [snip] > All I wanted was a definition. Everything can be defined, and if you > can't define it, then you don't know what it is. > > Zack Zack, When you get right down to it, no one knows what anything is. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 13:21:23 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA27364 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:20:08 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA27262 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:19:48 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA28958; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:19:00 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:18:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: UFO picture source? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sun, 10 Dec 95 23:06 CST To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Robert Sciog Subject: Re: fnrg: UFO picture source? At 10:32 PM 12/4/95 -0800, you wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 22:15:50 -700 >From: sam smith >To: billb@eskimo.com > >Roughly five or ten years ago, Larry King Live featured a >special show on the subject of UFOs. During the show, LK dis- >played a photograph which had been sent back from a Soviet Mars >Probe which had been lost under more-than-suspicious circum- >stances. The photo was crystal clear, with a Soviet telemetry >signal strip along one edge, and showed a cylindrical spaceship >"docked" endwise behind Phobos, so that Phobos occulted the >entire vehicle from Earth viewpoint. The spaceship was (if I >remember correctly) some 45 kilometers long X 8 kilometers >in diameter. It was white, with various patchworks of black & >grey, and looked very business-like. > The Soviet probe was destroyed moments after sending back >that photo. As it was destroyed, it was sending a second photo, >which was received only half-completed. It showed a "ray" from >the spaceship rather like a laser beam, which had red-washed the >entire photo. End of transmission, end of Probe. > This photo was characterized as the number one item for >discussion on the agenda of a US/Soviet summit meeting either >then just-held or just-scheduled. > I havn't had much luck tracking down my tape of that show, >or the original air-date to request a transcript. I've never seen >any other reference to this extraordinary photo. > Perhaps you have access to better research resources, or >could pass this reference on to someone who can unearth a tape, >a transcript, or some other copy or reference to the photo. > It's very impressive. > > There is a book out by Richard Hoagland called the Monuments of Mars. In this book Mr. Hoagland Explains about the strange formations on mars (The Face and The Cydonia "city" complex.) In the End of the newest revision of thsi book he mentions these photos. I have the book at work, i'll bring it home tomorrow and let you know if there is any sources in it. Also there is adocument about this on the hangout.rutgers.edu ufo, etc.... ftp site. I do not remember the name of it but i think it has the word russia or russian in the title and could be in the UFO or uncatagorized directories. Bob Sciog Bob Sciog sciog@mcs.net From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 13:24:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28682 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:23:25 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA28594 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:23:12 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA29568; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:22:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:22:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:12:06 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: kgo@phantom.com (Kevin G. O'Neill) Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force >>> COPY/SNIP >>> ...regarding: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: Longitudinal EM Force To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:50:40 -0600 (CST) Hi all. Some of this information (about Peter Graneau) was posted here earlier this week. A number of related theories and other reference information has been added. -- Robert Stirniman "...Cullwick was also one of the first to identify and attempt an analysis of the relativistic paradoxes and unusual effects which occur in a rotating EM field. His work still stands today as one of the only existing efforts to consider the problem of a rotating EM field. >>> COPY/SNIP >>> The "relativistic paradoxes and unusual effects..." have occured even to me, an ordinary layman. If an EM field is somehow rotated extremely fast, shouldn't all matter be repelled from its center? -kgo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mail message from: Kevin O'Neill, President Image Axis, Inc. 38 West 21st Street, NYC, NY 10010 (212) 989-5000 (fax=x1669) or kgo@phantom.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 13:25:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA29181 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:24:38 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA29101 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:24:27 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA29680; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:23:20 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:23:19 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 11:42:27 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: Re: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil >Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 22:51:48 +0800 >To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com >From: Gary Hawkins >Subject: Re: fnrg: Balky Tesla coil > >At 10:37 PM 12/6/95 -0500, you wrote: >> >> I'm building the Tesla coil featured in the September 1991 Radio >> Electronics. Some of you may remember this coil as the one wound on a >> polyethylene paint container? It uses a solid state driver circuit. >> Anyway, I've been unable to obtain the specified ferrite transformer cores >> and bobbins recommended by the author, and have been making substitutions >> (and therein lies the problem). >> >> Question: have any of you on this list built this coil, or ones similar? >> I'd like to tap your experiences and expertise on the subject, please. >> >> Bert >> >> >> >> >> >Tesla built some of his coils on a set of vertical struts, keeping >capacitive effects to a minimum, and air is a lot better at healing >itself if there is a discharge where there shouldn't be, than PE or >plastic or whatever. > >Note that if you make every other groove deeper, in a strut to wind >the secondary on, then looking down on it from the top, the wires will >make an 'X' pattern between struts, and that is supposed to reduce the >capacitance between windings or something. > >I don't think you'll find that in any books. It comes from someone who >is simply an excellent observer, and knew what he was seeing in the >old pictures, with his knowledge from building several coils. > >Haven't seen the article you're talking about, sorry, can't help there. >Also haven't seen a solid state coil that could really deliver much in >the way of impressive effects. Let me know if it promises a quiet >discharge of a couple inches or more. Not hearing the spark gap would >be a plus, and hopefully then you can tinker around with the tuning. >If it takes a control input from a signal generator (sine wave) and >lets you alter that (triangle wave?) to see what happens to the output, that >would be interesting. > >Gary >--------------------------------------------------- >Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today >http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA > > I haven't seen any references to "every other" winding being in a slightly deeper groove, but it might reduce the distributed capacitance of the windings. Thanks for passing this observation on to me. As to solid state coils, this coil is supposed to put out 7 inch sparks, and I have a copy of an article directly from the author for a larger version which is supposed to put out 15 inch sparks _very_ respectable for a solid state coil. I'm winding different versions of the coupling transformers using a variety of ferrite forms, so I'm bound to find out what works and what does not. Bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 13:26:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA29654 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:25:56 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA29550 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:25:37 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id NAA29830; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:24:46 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:24:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: What is Q? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 13:44:20 EST From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: What is Q? >What is "Q", for those who don't know? > >Well, some will tell you it's very hard to explain. > >Everything has a resonant frequency, including an electrical circuit. >Q is simply how well something *rings* at that frequency. A bell >that rings longer than another one has a higher "Q", so to speak.> > >Resistance lowers the Q of a circuit. > >Carbon has a pretty doggone high resistance. In simple terms, Q is the sharpness of the resonance curve in a system. The higher the Q, the sharper the resonance curve, or the higher the rejection of off resonant frequency signals will be. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 14:19:55 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA20640 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:19:52 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA20620 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:19:47 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA23557; Mon, 11 Dec 95 17:08:33 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Mon, 11 Dec 95 17:18:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 17:13:48 EST Message-Id: <4F06+Qo8nkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >The "relativistic paradoxes and unusual effects..." have occured even to >me, an ordinary layman. If an EM field is somehow rotated extremely fast, >shouldn't all matter be repelled from its center? -kgo. How fast do you want it rotated? It's fairly simple to construct a system to produce rotating EM waves at whatever rotational velocity you wish by feeding a pair of broadside dipole arrays with quatrature phased waves. It is quite simple to construct a system that would have a rotational velocity of C within the uniform field area. It might also be fairly easy to do this with a Hemholtz coil arangement as well, but the broadside array will be much easier to do at easily engineerable frequencies. How big an area do you want to enclose with this rotating field, will two meters do? Check out the "Traversable Low Energy Wormholes" thread from Neotech which deals with exactly this subject. The really interesting paradoxes come about when the rotational frequency is high enough so that the rotational velocity exceeds C within the uniform field area of the arrays or within the hemholtz coils. Say, just what is a red shifted magnetic field anyway? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 14:49:49 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA01602 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:49:33 -0800 Received: from willgate1.Pennet.net (willgate1.pennet.net [204.183.192.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA01538 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:49:23 -0800 Received: from jshaffer by willgate1.Pennet.net with SMTP (8.6.9/25-eef) id WAA27275; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:41:16 GMT Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:41:16 GMT Message-Id: <199512112241.WAA27275@willgate1.Pennet.net> From: Jim Shaffer To: Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert A. Shannon writes: > How fast do you want it rotated? It's fairly simple to construct a system > to produce rotating EM waves at whatever rotational velocity you wish by > feeding a pair of broadside dipole arrays with quatrature phased waves. Quite interesting. The design of the jumpgates in "Babylon 5" has bothered me since the very first episode, and now I know why! > How big an area do you want to enclose with this rotating field, will two > meters do? Check out the "Traversable Low Energy Wormholes" thread from > Neotech which deals with exactly this subject. Could you post some highlights from it? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 17:23:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA25119 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:23:31 -0800 Received: from mail.iglou.com (relay.iglou.com [192.107.41.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA25022 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:23:16 -0800 Received: from dp2-007.ppp.iglou.com by mail.iglou.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0tPJKE-0003CFC; Mon, 11 Dec 95 20:16 EST Message-Id: X-Sender: clipper@iglou.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:22:16 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: clipper@iglou.com (S.G.) Subject: fnrg: A bit of unproven info on the electric rocket. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I talked to a man visiting Kentucky from Alaska (Why did he come here right....) The man's name is Chuck he is 75 years old and claims to have worked with the german scientist Dr. Van Braun or Goddard on the original space program rocket that worked. He has been in the aerospace research thing for quiet a while. When he explained his area of past work experiance I thought I'd ask him about this little cap that everyone including myself is in the process of building. Chuck said he'd encountered a device somewhat like this one that was used to hurl soft iron projectals at a very high rate of speed, and to be carefull of debre in the center of the device when discharging the device. Can there be any truth to this statement? I have no idea. The guy could have been pulling my leg. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 15:04:15 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA07073 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:04:12 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA07026 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:04:05 -0800 Received: from t7.dialup.peg.apc.org (t7.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.135]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id KAA28676 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:03:22 +1000 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:03:22 +1000 Message-Id: <199512120003.KAA28676@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: What is Q? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >--- FORWARDED --- > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 13:44:20 EST >From: "Robert A. Shannon" >To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com >Subject: What is Q? > >>What is "Q", for those who don't know? >> >>Well, some will tell you it's very hard to explain. >> >>Everything has a resonant frequency, including an electrical circuit. >>Q is simply how well something *rings* at that frequency. A bell >>that rings longer than another one has a higher "Q", so to speak.> >> >>Resistance lowers the Q of a circuit. >> >>Carbon has a pretty doggone high resistance. > >In simple terms, Q is the sharpness of the resonance curve in a system. >The higher the Q, the sharper the resonance curve, or the higher the >rejection of off resonant frequency signals will be. > We were taught in our electronics classes that "Q" is the magnification factor a specific tuned circuit applies to a specific frequency. The tuned circuit tends to "short-circuit" all other frequencies to ground but accentuates the particular one it is "resonant" to. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 07:16:49 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA01756 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 07:16:33 -0800 Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA01737 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 07:16:30 -0800 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id JAA05640 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:59:41 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA818790749 Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:52:29 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:52:29 From: "reim" Encoding: 1558 Text Message-Id: <9511128187.AA818790749@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re: fnrg: What is Q? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Q is defined , as in band pass filters, as center frequency divided by the 3 db bandwidth. The narrow the bandwidth the sharper the filter and the higher the Q which can lead to instability in a circuit i.e.. it can oscillate. This is because the larger Q gets the poles closer to the imaginary axis. This causes the second term in a second order polynomial to go to 0. When this happens the denominator is in the form of (s'2 + Fo'2 ) and the inverse Laplase of this form is a sin wave. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: fnrg: What is Q? Author: magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list at ~Internet Date: 12/11/95 5:03 PM --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 13:44:20 EST From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: What is Q? >What is "Q", for those who don't know? > >Well, some will tell you it's very hard to explain. > >Everything has a resonant frequency, including an electrical circuit. >Q is simply how well something *rings* at that frequency. A bell >that rings longer than another one has a higher "Q", so to speak.> > >Resistance lowers the Q of a circuit. > >Carbon has a pretty doggone high resistance. In simple terms, Q is the sharpness of the resonance curve in a system. The higher the Q, the sharper the resonance curve, or the higher the rejection of off resonant frequency signals will be. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 04:59:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA01904 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:57:43 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA01899 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:57:41 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id EAA27784; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:57:41 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:57:40 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Ion Wind Experiment Picture. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 23:31:48 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Ion Wind Experiment Picture. For those of you on this list, I've placed a picture of the so-called "NIPD 2" model that I tested. It's at: http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/freenrg/nipd2.html Gary Hawkins [By the way, just can't resist this observation: There might be one hundred of you or so on this list. If I wanted to share the results of some work, with one hundred or so fellow researchers spread all over the world, normally I would have to go print 100 of the photographs, address 100 envelopes, pay the postage to who knows how many different countries, costing I would guess by the time it was all said and done somewhere in the neighborhood of $8 per mailing including everything ($800 for those of you who aren't next to your calculators :^) There is a look at the power of this medium. This scan was about 4 bucks, and although I don't expect everyone to be looking at the thing, I sure am glad I didn't have to go through all of that.] --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA *The Internet is going to be a channel on TV, with a wireless mouse built in to the remote control* From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 04:59:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA02003 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:58:30 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA01989 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:58:26 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id EAA27869; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:58:25 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:58:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Magnetron Tuning Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:35:23 -0600 (CST) From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Magnetron Tuning > >You wrote: >> >>>the anode cavities makes me wonder if a (very small) amount of tuning >>>might be possible by altering the magnetic field. It would only be a >tiny >>>variation though if it was possible at all. >> There was an article in a ham radio magazine, COMMUNICATIONS QUARTERLY, withing the last couple years, involving phase-locking a microwave oven magnetron and modulating it. I believe he injected about 20 watts of phase-locked RF in a pump-oscillator configuration to do this. I forget over what range he was able to vary the frequency. I'll dig out the article. But he was using the tube in a special cavity he designed and taking the power out to a dish antenna. Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 04:59:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA02150 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:59:26 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA02144 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:59:24 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id EAA27972; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:59:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:59:22 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Status of MRA? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Status of MRA? Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 00:38:03 -0800 From: Frank T Lofaro What is the current status of the MRA? I haven't seen anything new about it on the Web page for a while. Is it something that it might be worthwhile to build? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 05:18:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA05440 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:18:27 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA05414 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:18:23 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA00313; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:18:21 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:18:21 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Electric Rocket Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I checked out the roll of metal foil at Pacific Iron. Aluminum! Rats! I also had a brief conversation with someone who says they've heard about results from the "Electric Rocket" paper. He says that the effect occurs upon charging. This sounds like it has something to do with an impulse of current. If so, this explains the warning against aluminum, since the oxide coating would considerably slow down the charging and reduce the peak current. And this implies that the India-ink version might not work because of the increased resistance of the material. He also mentions that the effect should be detectable with just a few layers, and warns that the plate-segments will fly sideways out of the device, so the clamping bolts are necessary. Gotta try this! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 05:24:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA06406 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:24:44 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA06396 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:24:41 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA01200; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:24:41 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:24:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 23:05:19 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Deacon To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, Gary Hawkins wrote: > I read an article on the web that I would like to find again > (lost my bookmarks). The article described an experiment > where plum bobs were lowered down two mineshafts, > two mineshafts that were connected by a horizontal passage > at the bottom of them, and it was assumed that the bobs would > be closer to each other than their suspension point on the surface, > but instead they hung further apart. > > I'd like to find that article again in case any of you have seen it. > > Gary Hawkins > --------------------------------------------------- > Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today > http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA > > (word processor parameters LM=8, RM=75, TM=2, BM=2) Taken from KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 Sponsored by Vangard Sciences PO BOX 1031 Mesquite, TX 75150 There are ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS on duplicating, publishing or distributing the files on KeelyNet except where noted! February 15, 1992 WRIGHT1.ASC -------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter Wright is a very good friend of ours here at KeelyNet and we have finally gotten around to getting some of his papers typed up. Walter has been actively researching the PUSH gravity concept and has developed some astounding physical models to prove his point. When we first heard of him and his claims, we had some trouble believing. But after seeing his videos we changed our minds. Walter was kind enough to allow me to visit his home and workshop where I was further stimulated to get his work out to the public to the best of the ability of KeelyNet. Surprisingly enough, the more advanced researchers tend to support the PUSH gravity concept, particularly the Tachyon field theories of Nieper. One of the first arguments against Push Gravity is that if true, we would all be pushed off the planet, however, Walter only claims the PUSH concept to be valid in regard to CELESTIAL BODIES. We also ask you to keep in mind that Walter NEVER claimed that gravity is magnetic in nature. He finds that magnetic fields exhibit the push/pull characteristics which most closely emulate the effects of the pushing energy known as gravity. At the outset, we give you Walters address, since he is most interested in hearing from people interested in the PUSH GRAVITY theory. Walter also has published a book "Gravity is a Push" which you can buy through the mail for $12 postpaid. If you do write to Walter, please tell him you found out about his work through KeelyNet, we would appreciate it. THANKS....Jerry, Ron and Chuck... W. C. Wright 732 Ohio Street Fairfield, CA 94533 -------------------------------------------------------------------- The following text was written by Walter Wright in the early 1980's. A few thoughts by the author in passing... I believe when you read my theory with an "OPEN MIND" that you will see through it readily. When you try to present this subject to the right people it is almost an impossibility. They are more interested in "WHO YOU ARE" rather than what do you have to offer. To me this is "SICK". Page 1 That man that is a mechanic is never supposed to have any good ideas about baking and a baker isn't supposed to be able to offer any good advice to a mechanic. I believe all of us here on earth have at least one good idea to offer SOCIETY and I believe that this idea should be checked out by the experts to the fullest. I would appreciate a letter from you to me to let me know just what your opinion on this theory is. I am well aware of the fact, that when you have something new to offer in an old subject, that you are asking for your head to be chopped off. I am not afraid of the ax. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I made world news in March, 1979, when UPI wrote the following under a large caption of "MAN'S THEORY OF GRAVITY IS 'PUSHING' AND NOT 'PULLING'." FAIRFIELD (UPI) -- A retired railroad signalman and self-taught physicist says Sir Isaac Newton drew the wrong conclusion when the apple of destiny plopped on his head almost 300 years ago. Walter Wright, 60, says he isn't arguing that gravity doesn't exist, only that it works in reverse from the way Newton thought - by "pushing" objects apart rather than "pulling" them together. "Gravity isn't a pulling force," Wright says. "If bodies in space were attracted to one another, they'd always be colliding. But that doesn't happen." (Walter calls this the bunch-of-grapes theory since if Gravity truly attracted, then all masses would clump together into one giant cluster of grapes.) Wright's basic idea -- which he says is borne out by his experiments and calculations -- is that gravity doesn't emanate from the earth's core, it comes from the sun. He argues that the sun, because it is a huge mass in a constant state of combustion, emits forces which push or "squeeze" objects toward the earth -- like Newton's apple. If the 40-year veteran of Southern Pacific railroad yards is correct, of course, his ideas would put him in a class with Copernicus, Darwin and Einstein. And after all, Einstein was only a postal clerk when he wrote his General Theory of Relativity. Wright's gray-shingled home in this small Northern California town overflows with black boxes housing small magnets that spin, twist and roll and, he says, demonstrate the illogic of Newton's ideas. He uses galaxies passing through each other in deep space as an illustration of his ideas. The stars usually don't collide because they REPEL or PUSH EACH OTHER APART, he said. Wright's views are understandably unpopular with some physicists, although he says one mathematician who attended a demonstration of his theories told him his ideas were just as valid as most accepted theories of physics. Page 2 "Other scientists tell me they don't believe me, but they can't disprove my theories," Wright said. Physics Professor Eugene D. Commins at the University of California, who knew Einstein personally, called the notion of push-gravity "totally false. I say that without qualification." He said where Newtonian physics doesn't explain gravitational forces, Einstein's General Relativity theory does. Wright is unfazed, particularly since his novel ideas have made him a sort of guru to what he calls his "following" of teenage science students, sci-fi fans and even some physical scientists he calls "unbrainwashed" by Newtonian physics. He said the New York-based Carlton Press plans to publish his book, "Gravity is a Push," in the next two months. In the book, Wright claims, he succeeds where Einstein failed - in developing a unified field theory. -------------------------------------------------------------------- On September 10, 1979, I presented my physical models on Channel 13, KOVR, for a full hour on a program called "Morning Scene" and here is a letter I received from Chet Casselman who hosted the program : Dear Walter, I just want to know how pleased we were with your performance on "Morning Scene" the other day. It was an excellent presentation of a number of simple demonstrations of some pretty complicated theories. I have to say your theories were not only 'interesting', but made VERY GOOD SENSE, TOO. We got some very intriguing questions on the air after your exhibits, I thought, and you handled the questions quite well. As a matter of fact, we're still getting phone inquiries from viewers who want to know how to get in touch with you or where they can find a copy of your book "Gravity Is a Push". Maybe we can get you back for another visit one day. Thanks again for a very stimulating program. Chet Casselman -------------------------------------------------------------------- From the World Book Encyclopedia copyrighted in 1938: "The sun pulls the earth with 175 times the force that the moon does." In order for physicists to account for the Newton Theory that says the moon pulls the earth with twice the force that the sun does, here is their explanation in the Americana Encyclopedia, page 613 in Volume 27 under "TIDES" that was copyrighted in 1965. "A slight modification to Newton's law occurs in the mathematics of this problem." If you change the pull of the sun from 175 times greater than the pull of the moon mathematically, to end up saying the pull of the sun is only HALF as much as the moon and call that a "slight modification," then I believe you can sell gas to the Arabs for 5 bucks a gallon. Page 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------- At Calumet, Michigan, in 1901 they took two piano wires 4,250 feet long plumb bobs attached and dropped them down two mine shafts 4,250 feet apart. They expected the pull of gravity, which is supposed to be in the center of the earth, to pull these two plumb bobs closer together. Much to their surprise they found out the wires at the bottom WERE FURTHER APART than they were at the top. This led them to believe that: "Maybe there is no such thing as MASS ATTRACTION." The above science subjects provides me with more evidence to be even a bigger "NON-BELIEVER" in the Newtonian Gravity theory. April 27, 1979...Washington (UPI) -- "UNIVERSE WILL EXPAND FOREVER."...New evidence supports the idea the universe will continue to EXPAND FOREVER and escape contraction to a BIG CRUNCH billions of years from now," said Dr. Giaconni of the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. That kind of puts a damper on Newton's PULL THEORY. From a book called "PSYCO-CYBERNETICS" by Maltz, M.D., F.I.C.S. "Any breakthrough in science is likely to come from OUTSIDE the system. Experts are the most familiar with the developed knowledge INSIDE THE PRESCRIBED BOUNDARIES of a given science. Any new knowledge must usually come from the OUTSIDE...not by experts but by what someone has defined as an INPERT." Pasteur was NOT an M.D. The Wright Brothers were NOT aeronautical engineers, but BICYCLE MECHANICS. Einstein, properly speaking, was NOT a physicist but a mathematician. Yet his findings in mathematics completely turned upside down all the pet theories in physics. So perhaps I am in the process of "TURNING THE GRAVITY UPSIDE DOWN". I'm also an INPERT. Time will tell. -------------------------------------------------------------------- We are now venturing into OUTER SPACE, so let us look at the results between Wright and the so called "EXPERTS". #1 - National Geographic - June, 1975, page 868: Mercury possesses something else quite unexpected..a magnetic field, though only one percent of earth's. The 'formula' I wrote prior to this space probe said Mercury had a magnetic field that was one percent of earth's. This is covered in Chapter 10 of my book. I wasn't surprised. #2 - From a book called "JUPITER THE LARGEST PLANET" by Asimov on page 198: "The moon lacks a magnetic field". Here is a small portion of a letter sent to me by a professor from the University of Alaska dated January 12th, 1977: "Until the lunar landings, the moon was thought NOT to have a magnetic field." Page 4 Prior to the lunar landing I said the moon HAD a magnetic field. This is covered in Chapter 1 of my book. The professor ended up his letter saying the electronic expert (that is me) has no business in basic science and my theory was "FULL OF HOLES". Did you know that the Nobel Prize in PHYSICS for 1978 was given to two Americans who proved their outer space point by use of the ELECTRON THEORY? #3 - Channel 9 (KQED), San Francisco - March 5, 1979: Scientists were surprised to find out from Voyager 1 that the magnetic field around Jupiter is SO ENORMOUS and this magnetic field EXTENDS WAY OUT FROM JUPITER. My magnetic forumla (same as #1) told me Jupiter's magnetic field WAS MUCH, MUCH STRONGER than Earth's. Once again the SO-CALLED EXPERTS were SURPRISED but I WASN'T. #4 - The experts were surprised to find Venus and Mars are made from different "stuff" than earth. I wasn't and I cover this subject in Chapter 5 in my book. #5 - The following is from "THIS WORLD" - March 11, 1979, page 29: "Einstein devoted considerable energy to showing that probability was not the answer to HOW matter was constructed. Time has shown him in the main to have BEEN WRONG. He also made a great attempt in later life to construct his unified field theory that would unite ELECTRO-MAGNETISM, GRAVITY, SPACE and TIME under one set of equations. He wasn't successful." I have copyrighted two of these equations I feel Einstein was looking for but failed to write. One is a formula for the SPEED of our planets in their orbits AROUND our sun. The other formula is for the DISTANCE that our planets are FROM THE SUN. There are many other subjects about which the experts were surprised, bewildered, amazed, etc... BUT I WASN'T... -------------------------------------------------------------------- In the UPI article Professor Commins said PUSH-GRAVITY is totally false. On July 17, 1979, I wrote to Professor Commins and challenged him to bring his "PULL models" and PROVE ME WRONG at a showing I would be putting on at the Fairfield Moose Lodge on August 6, 1979. At this showing I gave evidence with my models to support my theory that our tides are caused by a "magnetic push factor" between our earth and our sun. Professor Commins FAILED TO ACCEPT my challenge. The Fairfield Moose Lodge sent me a very complimentary letter dated August 17, 1979 expressing BELIEF IN MY THEORY. My plans for the future are to contact many of the nationally televised programs such as the Phil Donahue Show, Tom Snyder program, etc...and hopefully will get a guest shot. Once again, time will tell. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Page 5 (This was written over 10 years ago and STILL Walter has not been invited for national exposure nor have his theories made the national spotlight IN ANY FORM. Hopefully someone reading this and other papers relating to Wright's research and theories will arrange to get him the national coverage and recognition which his theories merit. Walter is now 73 years of age and in excellent health, it would be a crowning achievement to his life work that his theories get public and scientific recognition during his lifetime. He has spent thousands of dollars of his own money researching and promoting his PUSH gravity work. Every public challenge he has issued has been ignored by established scientists educated in the retarded concept of Newtonian Physics. For those of us who recognize a pioneer in the field, Walter is one who is far ahead of the pack of formally educated scientists. The ramifications of his work to free energy, anti-gravity and space travel are astounding. Note that there ARE NO MODELS TO DEMONSTRATE PULL GRAVITY yet Walter has dozens of WORKING MODELS TO DEMONSTRATE THE VALIDITY OF PUSH GRAVITY.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have comments or other information relating to such topics as this paper covers, please upload to KeelyNet or send to the Vangard Sciences address as listed on the first page. Thank you for your consideration, interest and support. Jerry W. Decker.........Ron Barker...........Chuck Henderson Vangard Sciences/KeelyNet -------------------------------------------------------------------- If we can be of service, you may contact Jerry at (214) 324-8741 or Ron at (214) 242-9346 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Page 6 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 08:18:09 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20703 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:17:58 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20622 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:17:43 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA03518; Tue, 12 Dec 95 11:06:35 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 12 Dec 95 11:17:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 10:52:14 EST Message-Id: <4F06+iIOnkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >>How big an area do you want to enclose with this rotating field, will two meters >>do? Check out the "Traversable Low Energy Wormholes" thread from Neotech >>which deals with exactly this subject. >Could you post some highlights from it? The following message was originally sent out on Neotech in response to some references to some terms being common to several descriptions of alleged experiments dealing with technology based on yet to be accepted theories. The intent was to show that these phrases may be realted to specific phenomena, not to endorse the validity of any of the alleged experiments. _____Original message_____ Several people have commented on the fact that several "key phrases" keep poping up in relationship to several different areas or subjects. Referanced to rotating fields, powerful magnetic pulsed fields, and 90 degree phase shifts are common in many apparently different areas. Some of these common threads may cast some light on the subjects envolved when assembled in the right manner. For example, Preston Nicholes (sp?) describes a device known as a Delta T antenna in the Montauk series of books. While Prestons story may or may not be beleivable, we would have to keep in mind that if any part of his story is true, then he would be the least reliable witness to what may or may not have transpired at Montauk. The Delta T antenna as described has a pyrmidal structure, but lets just take two square loops, placed at 90 degrees to each other, and feed these two loops with an RF signal, also with a 90 degree phase shift, we will produce a rotating magnetic field within the loops. (these loops share a common center point, and each loop is in a plane 90 degrees from the other) The speed of rotation of this magnetic field is a direct function of the frequancy of the applied RF signal. At the center of the antenna, the rotational velocity is zero, but as you move out from the center, and rotational velocity increases. At some distance from center would reach the speed of light, dependant of the frequancy used. One could imagine that the rotational velocity of this rotating magnetic field could reach the speed of light within the antenna structure itself if a way could be found to make the antenna much larger than a normaly resonant antenna would be for that same frequancy. At several hundred megahertz, a two meter per side square loop would have a rotational velocity well in excess of the speed of light within the antenna structure itself. If the antenna elements were pulsed with phased pulses, and had multiple standing waves, the total "reactive"power within the antenna structure would be very high even at moderate levels of input power. How high could the reacitve power levels get? What effect would there be at the boundry where the rotational velocity reached, and then exceeded the speed of light. How could the magnetic field even propogate to the center of the antenna structure if it would have to move faster than light to reach that space? If hemholtz coils were used instead of loops, the magnetic field strength would be uniform inside the structure, how could the field strenght be uniform if there is not sufficient time for the field to propogate through the space inside the structure itself? Maybe this would create a huge electrostatic charge at the boundry, might glow green or something cool, like a plasma ball without the ball? This thought experiment raises several possible paradoxes, which might not be all that supprising really! Could such an effect actually generate a wormhole like phenomena, at energy levels far below that of neutron stars and such? As the causal mechanisim, the magentic field, is in roation, would this describe a traversable worm hole as has been postulated in relationship to rotating black holes? If it did, where would it lead? Lets see, a surplus transmitter, a large antenna structure, some phase shifters and wire here and there, maybe a good dose of duct tape, and poof, a black hole in you own back yard! Great! I'll bet you can buy the plans from Extraordinay Sciance or some place like that! Anyone got any insight as to what really might happen if this were possible? I'll take two please! ; - ) Anybody ever hard of Ham radio operators antenna masts disappearing under unusual circumstances? Now maybe that project Rainbow thingy did this with the degaussing coils on the ships hull, and now we have a set of moderately lame movies? Some say UFO's appear to spin before takeoff, maybe that's not just an airsickness test after all? Nahhh, could'nt be. Could it? Kids, please dont try this at home, just in case. _____End of original Message_____ Maybe the free-nrg list people are just the sort to actually try this at home? Any serious ideas on just what will take place as the Vr=C boundry moved into the uniform field area as the frequency is raised? Just what are the paradoxes implied by such a rotating field as predicted by conventional theory? I've put this problem to three different physists, and received three distinct answers, two of which tried to describe a "red shifted" magnetic field, but could not say just what such a field would represent in practice. The third opinion was that moderate levels of radiation would be produced at the boundry. None claimed that it would be imposible to conduct this experiment in practice, and one strongly reccomended doing just that. Any takers on this? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 10:07:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27439 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:07:18 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA27355 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:07:02 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA27901; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:05:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:05:12 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force In-Reply-To: <4F06+Qo8nkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > >The "relativistic paradoxes and unusual effects..." have occured even to > >me, an ordinary layman. If an EM field is somehow rotated extremely fast, > >shouldn't all matter be repelled from its center? -kgo. > > It is quite simple to construct a system that would have a rotational > velocity of C within the uniform field area. It might also be fairly easy What is with this? How can anything rotate at c, when rotational speeds are given in rotations/time, and c is a unit of linear distance/time? Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 12:21:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA14261 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:20:59 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA14238 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:20:55 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA14947; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:20:51 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:20:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Rotating fields In-Reply-To: <4F06+iIOnkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: ... > Maybe the free-nrg list people are just the sort to actually try this at > home? Any serious ideas on just what will take place as the Vr=C boundry > moved into the uniform field area as the frequency is raised? > > Just what are the paradoxes implied by such a rotating field as predicted > by conventional theory? Here's a boring possibility: as the fields tried to exceed the speed of light, the device would start transmitting EM waves rather than just acting like a pair of coils. My gut-level understanding of ANY antenna involves the collapsing of the b (or e) field trying to exceed the speed of light, becoming disconnected from the rest of the fields around the antenna, and flying off as a circular loop of flux (which is one way to describe an EM wave.) When you slowly turn off an electromagnet, the field seems to collapse back into the coil. If you turn the current off fast enough, part of the field tears loose and flys away. This begins to happen when the coil size divided by the turnoff time gets close to the speed of light. Or by a more familiar description: when the wavelength of the signal is about the same size of the antenna, the antenna will act like an antenna rather than like a non-transmitting capacitor or coil. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 20:49:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA07849 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 20:49:09 -0800 Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA07816 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 20:49:03 -0800 Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA12354 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:55:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:55:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199512130455.XAA12354@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: Rotating fields Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Well, Mr. Shannon brings up an interesting topic... Indeed, it is experimentally possible to generate such a field. I experimented with an arrangement of four monopoles, phased in 90 degree increments. The resulting field looked like a spiral, the phasing determining the sense of rotation. The driving signal was in the 1-10 watt range, around 300Mhz. Well, I didn't teleport to Hoboken. I did learn something about phased array antennas however. My feeling about the circuit described by Mr. Shannon ( which by the way sounds better for amateur study than the one I described ) and my own circuits are as follows. There is quite a difference between phase and group velocity. Group velocity is the speed at which real power is transfered. Phase velocity is simply the relation between wavelength and frequency, regardless of how one measures the wavelength ( yeah, I know, a crude definition, but quite relevant here ). It is quite possible to achieve any wavelength to frequency relation, by intefering plane waves. Also, depending on the direction you are measuring wavelength, you will see a different ratio. The C limit comes into play for group, not phase velocity. A good example of phase velocity is those new christmas lights you see, which seem to chase around the tree. If you increase the frequency, the speed of any one point of light seems to increase. But what are you measuring? Seems to me the same thing is happening here. The energy is travelling out from the center of the coils, not circulating around them. The moderator of this listserver proposes an interesting theory; that the loops will radiate when the rotational "velocity" exceeds c. If you are correct, best rush to the patent office. You will have invented a way to increase the radiation resistance of small dipoles, an !extremely! marketable idea. Best check this out though :) Well, I would encourage everyone to try this, it's simple enough and maybe something more interesting happens at high energy densities. K. Today Hint: I'm amazed at the number of posts based on my mention of the letter Q. Well, everyone had a good point to make here, but basically Q is just a frequency sensitive measure of the lossiness of a capacitor or inductor. for example, in a series resonant circuit, Q = 1/(2*PI*frequency*capacitance*resistance). For the inductor, Q = (2*PI*frequency*inductance)/resistance. Now that I have a better idea of the application ( If I gather correctly, to provide a surface for emitting ions ) I think a carbon suspension would be fine. In fact, if you have ever taken a TV apart ( and who here hasn't ? ) you may have noticed that horrible black shit all over the back of the picture tube. This is a carbon loaded spray to help distribute charge. It is available from GC electronics, comes in a spray can, and is quite conductive. If there is enough interest, I will dig out the address. They make all kinds of nifty stuff. But, better yet, head down to your local TV repair shop and ask them for some. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 15:24:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA25279 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:23:43 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA25160 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:23:13 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-27.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-27.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.27]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA13812 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:20:22 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512122320.KAA13812@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:24:40 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 11 Dec 95 at 22:41, Jim Shaffer wrote: [snip] > > How big an area do you want to enclose with this rotating field, will two > > meters do? Check out the "Traversable Low Energy Wormholes" thread from > > Neotech which deals with exactly this subject. > > Could you post some highlights from it? Or at least the web address? Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 01:30:51 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA00697 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:28:13 -0800 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA00684 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:28:10 -0800 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA13928; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 04:26:51 -0500 Date: 13 Dec 95 04:23:03 EST From: "Sean a. Moran" <103274.2257@compuserve.com> To: freenrg-list Subject: fnrg: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Message-ID: <951213092303_103274.2257_IHH29-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: Sean a. Moran, 103274,2257 TO: Listserver, INTERNET:majordomo@eskimo.com DATE: 12/16/95 10:32 PM RE: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Hello all. The names Sean M. well I finally found a place where I can talk about Tesla and such without getting funny looks. I'm brand new to the list and can see that this is the place where I can finally get some help on my expariaments. I've built a Tesla coil and could use some help on get some good arks of the thing. So far I've been able to light a floresent tube wireless but have only gotten very small sparks from the tirode to a screw driver. Some hints on what i'm doing wrong would be greatly appricated. thanks Sean From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 06:52:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA13759 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 06:52:45 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13741 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 06:52:41 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA17651; Wed, 13 Dec 95 09:41:35 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Wed, 13 Dec 95 9:52:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 9:27:53 EST Message-Id: <4F06+d9inkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A "Here's a boring possibility: as the fields tried to exceed the speed of light, the device would start transmitting EM waves rather than just acting like a pair of coils." Let me clear this up a bit, the two coils are acting as antenne already, producing the rotating field by vector sumnation of the radiated quatrature phased EM waves. The loops would be operating as the driven elements of a cubical antenne, not as coils as such. If prefer, substitute the two loop antenne with a pair of crossed dipoles at 90 degrees, this will also produce the rotating field, but the center will be occupied by the dipoles rather than be open as with loop antenne of by using sets of broadside arrays. Note that this is not the same as the rotational speed reaching c inside the "uniform field" area, as described in the original post. It's simple a tool to understsand the generation of the rotating field and the relationship between applied frequency and the resultant roational speed. Rather than loop elements, in practice you might use a phased array of dipole elements that produces a constant phase plane wave, not unlike a pair of hemholtz coils produced a uniform field within the coil sets. Four of these "broadside arrays" would from the four sides of a cube, inside of which you could induce the fast rotating fields from the radiated EM waves. In all cases, the driven elements are lauching EM waves a c. Only the vector sum of the two (of four) quatrature fields is in rotation, which leads us back the the question of what happens as the rotational velocity of the sum of these EM fields reaches c within the field generator, and there is not sufficient time for the fields to propogate accross the Vr=c boundry? This is the point where two different physists have tried to lead me dowm the garden path of "red shifted magnetic fields". I'm not sure I'm ready to buy that concept just yet. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 09:00:14 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25156 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:00:08 -0800 Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.wellfleet.com [192.32.253.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA25128 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:00:02 -0800 Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com (pobox.wellfleet.com) by lobster.wellfleet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12201; Wed, 13 Dec 95 11:57:44 EST Received: from tahiti.engeast by pobox.BayNetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22108; Wed, 13 Dec 95 11:58:42 EST Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 11:58:42 EST From: juban@baynetworks.com (Jim Uban) Message-Id: <9512131658.AA22108@pobox.BayNetworks.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A "This is the point where two different physists have tried to lead me dowm the garden path of "red shifted magnetic fields". I'm not sure I'm ready to buy that concept just yet." [Robert Shannon] >From what I've been able to determine, the actual speed of interaction of electric or magnetic fields has never been measured. This as opposed to electromagnetic waves, propagating at c as an independent disturbance of the 'vacuum'. I've seen arguments for instantaneous action-at-a-distance as the interaction mode for the fields. [For instance, Phipps' "Heretical Verities"]. If this is the case, then whether or not a rotating field exceeded light speed would be a moot point. Analogous to this is the speed of interaction of the gravity field (as opposed to gravity waves, presumed to travel at speed c). I've seen from 2 sources (but have never verified this myself) that the equations used by Nasa for spacecraft guidance use the actual position of the Sun as its gravity source point, rather than the light-speed retarded position (9 minutes or so for us here on Earth) of the Sun. So, they are treating gravity as an instantaneous action-at-a-distance force, with obviously good results! I actually plan to put together a field speed measurement experiment. Haven't done much on it yet. Maybe the rotating field would make a good source. I need to track down methods of fast response detection of either of the 2 fields, so they can be resolved in time over a reasonable distance. Probably use a digital time-base running to 2 detection points and compare the difference. Any ideas I cheerfully accept! Jim U. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:11:25 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA21028 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:11:02 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA20936 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:10:48 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA02581; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:08:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:08:52 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. In-Reply-To: <9512131658.AA22108@pobox.BayNetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Jim Uban wrote: > > >From what I've been able to determine, the actual speed of interaction > of electric or magnetic fields has never been measured. This as opposed > > ........ > > Analogous to this is the speed of interaction of the gravity field (as > opposed to gravity waves, presumed to travel at speed c). I've seen > from 2 sources (but have never verified this myself) that the equations > used by Nasa for spacecraft guidance use the actual position of the > Sun as its gravity source point, rather than the light-speed retarded > position (9 minutes or so for us here on Earth) of the Sun. So, they > are treating gravity as an instantaneous action-at-a-distance force, > with obviously good results! > If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it. > Jim U. > Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:39:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01477 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:39:22 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01420 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:39:13 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA09453; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:39:10 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:39:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. In-Reply-To: <4F06+d9inkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > "Here's a boring possibility: as the fields tried to exceed the speed of > light, the device would start transmitting EM waves rather than just > acting like a pair of coils." > > Let me clear this up a bit, the two coils are acting as antenne already, > producing the rotating field by vector sumnation of the radiated quatrature > phased EM waves. The loops would be operating as the driven elements of a > cubical antenne, not as coils as such. Our definition of "antenna" may differ. I'm calling it a "coil" if all it does is create a local magnetic field. If it's capable of emitting significant EM power, then it's an "antenna." The difference between a simple coil and a loop antenna is not in the wires, it is in the ratio of size to wavelength. If a 12-inch loop is powered at 60hz, it's a coil and does not radiate any significant EM waves. An identical coil a mile away will pick up a vanishingly-small 60hz signal. If the exact same coil is driven by a 500MHZ signal, then, since 500MHZ is about 2ft wavelength, the coil becomes a significant radiator of EM waves. An identical coil a mile away will pick up significant wattage. This is the difference between a transformer and a radio transmitter and receiver. In a transformer with widely-spaced coils, the field lines don't move fast, and when the current falls through zero, the field lines collapse into the coil rather than flying outward as radiated waves. I'm also saying that a pair of crossed coils will start behaving differently when the driving frequency is so high that the field lines near them try to exceed the speed of light. At low frequencies the coils create a rotating magnetic field. At high frequencies they send out radio waves having a rotating field vector (circularly polarized waves, in other words.) WITHIN the volume of the coils the fields still rotate, at least until the frequency is raised so high that the coils are many wavelengths across. At these frequencies the fields in the center of the crossed coils would be of complex shape, maybe some kind of contracting spiral. (Which is interesting, because at very high frequencies there would be a "hot spot" at the exact center of the crossed coils.) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:52:51 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06282 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:52:40 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA06205 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:52:27 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA25927; Wed, 13 Dec 95 13:41:14 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Wed, 13 Dec 95 13:47:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 13:44:27 EST Message-Id: <4F06+9wlnkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it." Maybe not. What about the apparent faster than light, or action at a distance effects seen with quantum paired particles? The spin of the second particle cannot be proven to have happened bvefore the event took place with the first particle in the pair, can it? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:45:14 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA03374 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:45:00 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA03311; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:44:49 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA10080; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:44:43 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:44:43 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Jim Uban cc: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: VTA In-Reply-To: <9512131658.AA22108@pobox.BayNetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Jim Uban Jim, you've messed with Sparky Sweet's VTA, right? I once heard that Sweet would heat the magnets to 120F before pulsing them, and also would apply the pulse under automatic control only at the zero-crossing of the AC wave. Is this well known? Or might this be another "secret" to VTA construction? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:47:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA04125 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:46:59 -0800 Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA03967 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:46:35 -0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by utdallas.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA13637; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:46:17 -0600 Received: from infoserv.utdallas.edu by utdallas.edu (Brelay v6.01) with BLIMP; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:46:17 CST Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:46:16 -0600 (CST) From: Chuck Knight To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Charles Hope wrote: > If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, > the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it. > > > Jim U. This has always confused me...why, if something travels faster than light, does it necessarily follow that it involves time travel? For example...light from the sun takes appx 9 minutes to reach the earth. ( if memory serves) If one went faster than light, the trip could last 8 minutes instead of 9... Where does time travel factor in? -- Chuck Knight From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:51:59 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA05953 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:51:51 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA05903 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:51:42 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA10730; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:51:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:51:32 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: FAQs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: cc: "Emilio T. da Silva Jr." On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Emilio T. da Silva Jr. wrote: > > Please,where may I find free-energy FAQs? The barely-started and under-construction version is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Take a look everyone, and post any additions or changes to freenrg-list. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:14:37 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14890 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:14:27 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14857 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:14:18 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA13000; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:14:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:14:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields In-Reply-To: <199512130455.XAA12354@cnct.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Keith Nagel wrote: ... > The moderator of > this listserver proposes an interesting theory; that the loops will radiate > when the rotational "velocity" exceeds c. If you are correct, best rush to > the patent office. You will have invented a way to increase the radiation > resistance of small dipoles, an !extremely! marketable idea. Best check > this out though :) But what I've invented is an explanation of the difference between a dipole antenna and pair of wires. Or the difference between a loop antenna and an electromagnet. The secret to making a pair of wires become an antenna is to increase the driving frequency until the wavelength is such that the wires in the antenna are 1/4 wavelength long! ;) A 1/4-wave dipole is already using the secret. I should qualify all I've written with the admission that I've come up with my views by attempting to explain the operation of antennas to people by appealing to visual metaphors. I'm fairly certain they do apply, but not 100% certain. On similar topic: anyone ever heard of the "CFA antenna" flap in the UK? CFA is for "crossed-field antenna." There were a bunch of articles and letters to the editor in EWW, "Electronics and Wireless World," the British engineering mag. The CFA-believers though they had discovered a way to make 1-foot antennas which were efficient at 100-meter wavelengths. The key to the CFA was to create the e- and b-fields separately: feed both a coil-loop and a pair of capacitor-spheres with separate high-current and high-voltage signals respectively, orient them 90deg to produce a broadside wave, shift the phases with L/C networks to form the proper EM wave (90? zero? ), and then obtain a powerful EM emission from a tiny antenna. There was a great quantity of argument and name-calling over this, all done in slow-motion over many months of letters in the letters-to-the-editor column. Then it just died away. Either the pro-CFA side couldn't prove that it worked, or nobody believed the proof they did find. (Note: EWW has occasional "weird science" articles even though it is a conventional engineering magazine. Besides the CFA stuff, I recall seeing reports of experiments with pulses in coax cable which implied violation of lightspeed, and their letters-to-editor column has constant arguments about ether theories, the nature of gravity, etc. Anyone here have access to EWW back issues?) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:16:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA15395 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:15:56 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15311 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:15:43 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA13129; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:15:26 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:15:22 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: fearl@l2.conline.com To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:19:45 +0000 Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs [Interesting KeelyNet Article snipped] Well, I have one nagging question about "push" gravity... If it's coming from the Sun, as it is proposed and it's pushing us down on the Earth, then where is the other push coming from on the dark side of the Earth- when it's night? The stuff forwarded to me at this point does not reconcile this anomaly in the theory in question. Something just doesn't common-sensically jive with what I have just read. Frank Earl Earl Consulting Services- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:17:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA15900 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:17:20 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA15833 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:17:06 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA13232; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:16:40 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:16:40 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Electric Rocket Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: fearl@l2.conline.com To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:26:07 +0000 Subject: Re: fnrg: Electric Rocket > I checked out the roll of metal foil at Pacific Iron. Aluminum! Rats! Dagnabit! I was hoping... :-) > I also had a brief conversation with someone who says they've heard about > results from the "Electric Rocket" paper. He says that the effect occurs > upon charging. This sounds like it has something to do with an impulse of > current. If so, this explains the warning against aluminum, since the > oxide coating would considerably slow down the charging and reduce the > peak current. And this implies that the India-ink version might not work > because of the increased resistance of the material. He also mentions > that the effect should be detectable with just a few layers, and warns > that the plate-segments will fly sideways out of the device, so the > clamping bolts are necessary. Gotta try this! I'm making a note of it. Since it SEEMS to be on charging, could it be attributed ot piezo effects? Also, why couldn't copper or brass work? It's got relatively good conductivity, doesn't oxidize in the manner aluminum would and can be conformal coated to prevent oxidation effects. (Hm... Would a conformal coating compound act as a good dialectric for this? I wonder... :-) Frank Earl Earl Consulting Services- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:18:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA16254 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:18:15 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA16163 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:17:59 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA13307; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:17:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:17:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: fearl@l2.conline.com To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:13:46 +0000 Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force > What is with this? How can anything rotate at c, when rotational speeds > are given in rotations/time, and c is a unit of linear distance/time? If you'll note, there's a physical, linear distance that a point on a disk travels while it's rotating. This point is going round and round the axis of the disk at a linear velocity X which is proportional to the angular velocity Y as given. If you rotate something fast enough, you get a linear velocity that approaches "c". Frank Earl Earl Consulting Services- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:19:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA16714 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:19:33 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA16598 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:19:10 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA13360; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:18:37 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:18:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Looking for . . . Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:21:46 -0500 From: John Bell Subject: Looking for . . . Hi. Does anyone know where I can find a high-speed (9000+ RPM) squirrel cage that's relatively small? I'd like to find something with about a 4" output, but anything that's not too large would probably work. Many thanks. -- ________________________________________________________________________ | | |John Bell The total intelligence in | | the world is constant; the | |jbell@greatoz.sdi.agate.net population is growing. | |trio.ume.maine.edu/~ubrmsc/johnbell.html --Murphy | |________________________________________________________________________| From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:52:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA28825 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:51:41 -0800 Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.wellfleet.com [192.32.253.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA28700 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:51:22 -0800 Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com (pobox.wellfleet.com) by lobster.wellfleet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18183; Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:48:38 EST Received: from tahiti.engeast by pobox.BayNetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29561; Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:49:36 EST Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:49:36 EST From: juban@baynetworks.com (Jim Uban) Message-Id: <9512131949.AA29561@pobox.BayNetworks.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it. [Charles Hope] My take on this (in the context of what I said) is that if electric and magnetic fields (as distinguished from EM radiation) operate in an instantaneous action-at-a-distance means, then they do not actually travel as a signal and thus do not fall under the perview of special relativity (SR) and it's limitations. After all, SR is derived from the movement of light appearing at a constant velocity. From that, the structure of spacetime is deduced. And it is thus extended to movement of all material objects in that spacetime. But, movement is the key word here. Spacetime could be multiply connected at all points, allowing for action at a distance. In fact, instantaneous would probably be a requirement here. Jim U. From juban@BayNetworks.com Wed Dec 13 11:56:15 1995 Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.wellfleet.com [192.32.253.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00659 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:56:12 -0800 Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com (pobox.wellfleet.com) by lobster.wellfleet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18286; Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:53:29 EST Received: from tahiti.engeast by pobox.BayNetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29848; Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:54:27 EST Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:54:27 EST From: juban@BayNetworks.com (Jim Uban) Message-Id: <9512131954.AA29848@pobox.BayNetworks.com> To: bilb@eskimo.com Subject: Re: VTA Status: RO X-Status: Bill, I don't think the lawsuit stuff is an issue now, as Sparky Sweet passed away only just recently. I didn't keep a copy of what I wrote, you are welcome to forward it to the group. I'm not so interested in it showing up somewhere like alt.sci.physics.new-theories, however. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:06:23 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA04274 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:06:10 -0800 Received: from piltdown.phantom.com (piltdown.phantom.com [198.67.3.23]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA04180 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:05:54 -0800 Received: from [204.183.52.80] ([204.183.52.80]) by piltdown.phantom.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA15613 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:05:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:05:43 -0500 X-Sender: kgo@mailhost.phantom.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: kgo@phantom.com (Kevin G. O'Neill) Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Charles Hope wrote: > >> If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, >> the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it. >> >> > Jim U. > >This has always confused me...why, if something travels faster than >light, does it necessarily follow that it involves time travel? > >For example...light from the sun takes appx 9 minutes to reach the earth. >( if memory serves) If one went faster than light, the trip could last 8 >minutes instead of 9... Where does time travel factor in? > > -- Chuck Knight I agree. Infinity times the speed of like merely sends my messages infinately closer to instantaneously. Never actually instantly. And, never earlier... -Kevin O'Neill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mail message from: Kevin O'Neill, President Image Axis, Inc. 38 West 21st Street, NYC, NY 10010 (212) 989-5000 (fax=x1669) or kgo@phantom.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:17:45 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA08261 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:17:20 -0800 Received: from piltdown.phantom.com (piltdown.phantom.com [198.67.3.23]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA08192 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:17:08 -0800 Received: from [204.183.52.80] ([204.183.52.80]) by piltdown.phantom.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA18483 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:16:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:16:57 -0500 X-Sender: kgo@mailhost.phantom.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: kgo@phantom.com (Kevin G. O'Neill) Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Charles Hope wrote: > >> If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, >> the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it. >> >> > Jim U. > >This has always confused me...why, if something travels faster than >light, does it necessarily follow that it involves time travel? > >For example...light from the sun takes appx 9 minutes to reach the earth. >( if memory serves) If one went faster than light, the trip could last 8 >minutes instead of 9... Where does time travel factor in? > > -- Chuck Knight I agree. Infinity times the speed of light merely sends my messages infinately closer to instantaneously. Never actually instantly. And, never earlier... -Kevin O'Neill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mail message from: Kevin O'Neill, President Image Axis, Inc. 38 West 21st Street, NYC, NY 10010 (212) 989-5000 (fax=x1669) or kgo@phantom.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 16:32:13 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA24594 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:00:00 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA24287 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:59:10 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA28762; Wed, 13 Dec 95 15:47:49 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Wed, 13 Dec 95 15:58:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 15:32:55 EST Message-Id: <4F06+rVnnkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Our definition of "antenna" may differ. I'm calling it a "coil" if all it does is create a local magnetic field. If it's capable of emitting significant EM power, then it's an "antenna." The difference between a simple coil and a loop antenna is not in the wires, it is in the ratio of size to wavelength." Then these are antenne in all cases, the change in applied frequency needed to bring the Vr=c boundry within the field gerneration system need not be more than a few megahertz, again, replace the antenne with a phased array of dipoles and you can do the same thing. In fact, assume that we power the device up at a frequency which will place the Vr=c boundry inside the uniform field area of the field radiators, and do not change the frequency settings, but bring the power levels up slowly instead. Even if we call it a coil, the field in in motion, and it's radiating EM waves to produce the vector sum rotating field, we cant get to the rotating field untill the field generation system interfers the emitted phase plane waves first. The description of it being a coil is confusing here, i intend that the loops are much like the driven elements of a cubical quad, not as a coil. "I'm also saying that a pair of crossed coils will start behaving differently when the driving frequency is so high that the field lines near them try to exceed the speed of light." Exactly, there have been referances made to "paradoxes" in this condition that propted me to bring this subject up, as we may produce these conditions fairly easily. Just what "paradoxes" or other effects are predicted though? "At low frequencies the coils create a rotating magnetic field. At high frequencies they send out radio waves having a rotating field vector (circularly polarized waves, in other words.)" We will take the frequency as being fixed, and of a frequency that would bring the Vr=c boundry within the radiator array. We may set the radiator array to what ever size is needed by use of broadside arrays producing constant phase plane waves. to make the physical emitters large enough so that the roational velocity is c inside the emitter structure, we may simply add more dipole elements to the broadside arrays. In all cases, the antenne, loops, or coils are emitting EM waves, not magnetic fields alone, and it is the vector sum of these radiated fields that is in rotation. What we get is a standing circular wave, as opposed to a circularly polarized EM wave propogating in the Z axis. As it's trapped inside the emitting array, it could only propogate outside the Vr=c boundry by superluminal propogation. This is where the "red shifted" magnetic fields are supposed to pop up. Indeed the center would be quite a hot spot! Try to calculate the energy density with only ten watts P.E.P. from each of the four broadside arrays on the faces of a cube. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:12:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA29142 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:12:07 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA29036 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:11:52 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA29328; Wed, 13 Dec 95 16:00:23 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Wed, 13 Dec 95 16:11:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 15:58:46 EST Message-Id: <4F06+4unnkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fwd: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This could only make sense if empty space generated the push, and atomic matter absorbed this push. We would cling to the surface of the earth like crud in a drain screen. The center of the earth would be gravity free, as the "flow" of push would be equal from all directions. Gravity would only be a difference in this "pressure" accross an object. With the push resulting from space itself, Hubble expansion takes on a new meaning, gravitational shadows still work, and the plumb-bob's may also be explained. After all, why would the sun generate this push, and not the Earth? Often papers from Keelynet are quite interesting, but some assembly may be required after an objective reading. Mixing and matching different parts of several different papers can be real fun though, kind of like playing Mr. Potato Head. I read the "gravity is a push from empty space" theory somewhere, it's not mine. ------------- Original Text From William Beaty , on 12/13/95 11:15 AM: To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com --- FORWARDED --- From: fearl@l2.conline.com To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:19:45 +0000 Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs [Interesting KeelyNet Article snipped] Well, I have one nagging question about "push" gravity... If it's coming from the Sun, as it is proposed and it's pushing us down on the Earth, then where is the other push coming from on the dark side of the Earth- when it's night? The stuff forwarded to me at this point does not reconcile this anomaly in the theory in question. Something just doesn't common-sensically jive with what I have just read. Frank Earl Earl Consulting Services- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 14:39:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02019 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:39:38 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA01987 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:39:33 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA05056; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:37:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:37:36 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Chuck Knight wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Charles Hope wrote: > > > If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, > > the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it. > > > > > Jim U. > > This has always confused me...why, if something travels faster than > light, does it necessarily follow that it involves time travel? > > For example...light from the sun takes appx 9 minutes to reach the earth. > ( if memory serves) If one went faster than light, the trip could last 8 > minutes instead of 9... Where does time travel factor in? You are confused because your notions of distance and time are based on the experiences you've enjoyed up until now, all of them at very very slow speeds. If you could move faster, or were much larger, you'd understand exactly why I said what I did. Since you're slow and small like me, however, you'll have to do roughly what I did, and track down a book that explains Minkowski spacetime diagrams. I have found them the simplest and most intuitional way to understand why moving objects shrink, their time slows down, the passage of time stops for travellers at c, and reverses for those faster than c. But like most experiences, it is richer with the mathematical treatment than without. Dover publishes a book of the classic relativity papers, incuding The Paper by Minkowski himself. It is small, blue, and cheap. I believe it is called _The Principle of Relativity_, and features Einsteins face on the cover. > > -- Chuck Knight > Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 14:44:35 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA03621 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:44:12 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA03558 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:44:00 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA05979; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:41:11 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:41:11 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. In-Reply-To: <4F06+9wlnkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > "If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, > the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it." > > Maybe not. What about the apparent faster than light, or action at a > distance effects seen with quantum paired particles? The spin of the > second particle cannot be proven to have happened bvefore the event took > place with the first particle in the pair, can it? > I'm not sure I believe in them. Is logical consistency a requirement for existence, for you? Violation of causality is hard to chew. In this case, it really means time travel. Can I send my grandfather a message from the future, convincing him to join the priesthood and avoid having my mother? Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 15:02:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA10183 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:01:40 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA10097 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:01:24 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA10638; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:59:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:59:03 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, William Beaty wrote: > --- FORWARDED --- > From: fearl@l2.conline.com > To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:13:46 +0000 > Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force > > > What is with this? How can anything rotate at c, when rotational speeds > > are given in rotations/time, and c is a unit of linear distance/time? > > If you'll note, there's a physical, linear distance that a point on > a disk travels while it's rotating. This point is going round and > round the axis of the disk at a linear velocity X which is > proportional to the angular velocity Y as given. If you rotate > something fast enough, you get a linear velocity that approaches "c". I have a wheel in my backyard, and it spins at 5 miles per hour. Do you think you know anything about my wheel? > > > Frank Earl > Earl Consulting Services- > > Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 00:26:13 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA06816 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:25:58 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA06802 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:25:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199512140825.AAA06802@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:28:28 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:09 AM 12/14/95 -0500, you wrote: >>One other thing - the broadband RF output tends to block out TV reception >>for hundreds of metres around you, so please be considerate of your >>neighbours (unless of couse their TV is too loud).Have fun...... >>Jim >> > > Just wondering, I'm starting to put together a coil myself but i don't have >a lot of space. Do i need to worry very much about grounding/power spikes >induced voltage, frying my computer, ect. if i opperate a coil ? Does >anyone have a guideline for a 'safe' distance ? >(this is going to be for a small/first time coil) > >Thanks, >Chris >+--------------------------------------------------------+ >|Chris Cudahy | B.SC. CS/Math - getting there| >|ccudahy@calumet.yorku.ca | Swim Bike Run Colapse | >|http://www-home.calumet.yorku.ca/ccudahy/www/home.htm | >---------------------------------------------------------+ > > > Always somewhat open to question, but I can say this much: I put an electronic video camera inside a metal box with a hole for the lens on top of a Tesla Coil in operation that put out a ten foot discharge (on a battery powered platform that slowly rotated) and there was no damage to any of the electronics. I think one of the most important elements is the input choke, or high frequency spikes find their way back to your supply line. Once there, they can arc across gaps, and once that gap is ionized, there is a lot of amperage to follow it, and you can wind up blowing out substations and so forth, not so good. [FYI - Input choke on a Tesla Coil: An air core coil of fine magnet wire of many turns, it allows 60 Hz thru to the coil, but stops high frequency from getting back to the line.] Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA *The Internet is going to be a channel on TV, with a wireless mouse built into the remote control* From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 20:47:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09803 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:47:38 -0800 Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA09737 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:47:28 -0800 Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tQ5Ze-001VzMC; Wed, 13 Dec 95 22:47 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: More About Longitudinal EM Force To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 22:47:18 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2850 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FORWARDED MESSAGE To: robert@wwa.com Organization: Vladimir V. Onoochin, Private Account Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 01:01:55 +0300 (MSK) From: "Vladimir V. Onoochin" Subject: Longitudinal EM Force Dear Robert, One person from England resent me your message on the longitudinal EM forces. I would like to say that my friends in St.Petersburg are very interested in this problem. They are trying to develop new electrodynamics including such longitudinal EM forces. Moreover, some years ago certain experiments had been performed to prove the existence of that forces. Because that forces cannot be detected by the magnet they aren't magnetic ones. However, they aren't of purely electrical nature so cannot be described by the basic formulae, i.e. of Lorentz, for the force in the electrodynamics: F = q(E + [v x B]) My friends claim that their concept contradict to Einstein theory so they are in a certain disagreement with physical establishment. However, the results of the experiments are real facts and must be considered as crucial arguments in favour of one or another theory. The experiments on detecting the LEM forces had been performed in Tomsk (in Siberia) by Dr Nikolaev. Unfortunately, I have to have a trip for one month. However, when I return to St.Pete I will send you information where that experiments have been described. Also I will try to know his e-address. Because we analysed one experiment at electrodynamical seminar of Physical Society of St.Pete I would like to describe it shortly. Let's assume the plane capacitor and a loop with current between the plates of the capacitor. Besides, the plane of the loop is parallel to the plates of that one. When the loop moves uniformly along the X axis perpendicular to the plates of the capacitor it acts on each plates with some force if the plates are charged. However, according to classical electrodynamics the plates cannot act on the loop. Because the process of motion is stationary Nikolaev assumed that third Newtonian law must be fulfilled, therefore, the plates must act on the loop too. He measured the force acting on the loop with current. Of course, such a force can be caused by induction or another reason. However, Nikolaev claimed that he detected the force. I will be in St.Pete until Friday and then in Moscow for a week on e-address [panchuk@a33.msk.su] so if you have questions on the experiment I answer you. Of course, if I could. I try to prove that the real physical quantities, even in classical electrodynamics, are the potentials but not the fields. If it is so Lorentz formulae don't describe completely the forces of electrodynamics and there is a possibility for the LEM forces to exist. Sorry for my not perfect English. With warm regards, Vladimir ====================================================== From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:30:17 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24215 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:30:15 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA24181 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:30:10 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id XAA19317; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:30:08 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:30:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: VTA (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 14:19:43 EST From: Jim Uban To: bilb@eskimo.com Subject: Re: VTA Hi Bill, Yes, I've followed the VTA fairly closely. At the 1994 NEN conference in Denver, a couple fellows (Mike Watson and Don Watson, unrelated) both presented new info about this. Don in particular claimed to have replicated Sweet's results. I talked with him at length and got his whole formula. To date, I've not tried to replicate it, but hope to not too far away in time. Your comment about heating the magnets is a new one for me, and maybe could be useful. Don W came to the conclusion that Sparky was trying to 'loosen up' the magnetic domains and create a 'magnetic bubble' in macroscopic size. Don said that Sparky said "finally someone has figured it out" about Don's approach. The idea is to use flat ferrite magnets, perhaps 4x6x1/2" with the magnetic face being the two flat surfaces - the whole magnet has only one set of poles on these faces. Also, there is a ongoing feeling that only Barium Ferrites (BaFe) rather than Strontium Ferrites (SrFe) would work. No one has tried the latter. Don would find BaFe magnets at surplus houses - they have almost infinite resistance as measured with two meter probes at any points on the surface, whereas SrFe mags has <5Megohms or so. Don demonstrated this to me. So, the technique is to break down the magnetism till the magnet is almost unmagnetized, and ends up having two sets of poles, such that about a 3/4" ring around the face is one direction, and the interior is the other direction. Both are weak. With magnetic paper (shows mag fields), the boundary between the two fields is apparent as a 1/4" ring, which Don called the magnetic bubble. The bubble should be quite fluid, such that bringing a small magnet near it shifts it locally one direction or the other. To get the magnets 'conditioned' in this way, Don W used a coil on a form around the periphery of the faces, pulsed from caps charged at 400V (I forget the energy requirements, it's in my notes). A pulse is sent through the coil, then turn over the magnet, and do it again, and flip it again, and so on; also give the magnet a tilt (maybe 15 degrees) on each axis on both sides, as the pulse is applied, to get the pulse field applied more thoroughly. Do this till the magnet has weakened, and the bubble shows up. At this point the bubble is not fluid. To get there, make a capacitor from two copper plates a little bigger than the magnet surfaces and put the magnet between them. Charge to about 10KV (? might have been a little less) for about an hour. Now the bubble is fluid. The final step, to condition the frequency, is to use the demag coil again, [I'm actually getting a little fuzzy here, and need to consult my notes] and I think set up both magnets (2 are used and conditioned, with the input&output coils between them) in their final configuration with input&output coils. Actually, I think a bigger width coil like the demag coil is used here that covers both magnets peripheries. The magnets are about 2" apart, face to face. Now, run 60Hz through the input coil, and at every peak (only one in the period, hi or lo), pulse the outer coil with a certain amount of energy (again my notes contain the value). This is done several times, and now one is good to go. Any defects in the magnet in the area of the bubble will impair operation. Anyway, Don W was going to work with Walter Rosenthal, who worked with Sweet's actual VTA, later that year ('94) to do verification. I plan to call Walter and see what the results were, some time. The other fellow, Mike Watson, is from England and Sparky was willing to give him more information. Mike just published a letter in New Energy News about this that put a bit of a damp blanket on the whole VTA, indicating that it looked like Sparky himself didn't know how to reproduce the effect, and got lucky on a set of magnets he got from surplus once. If you want more details, I can dig them out for you. Jim U. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:41:01 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA26734 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:40:58 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA26711 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:40:55 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id XAA20864; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:40:53 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Faster than light reverses time?! I do not think so. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Faster than light reverses time?! I do not think so. Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 22:52:24 -0800 From: Frank T Lofaro In message , Charles Hope w rites: >Since you're slow and small like me, however, you'll have to do roughly >what I did, and track down a book that explains Minkowski spacetime >diagrams. I have found them the simplest and most intuitional way to >understand why moving objects shrink, their time slows down, the passage >of time stops for travellers at c, and reverses for those faster than c. >But like most experiences, it is richer with the mathematical treatment >than without. Well, first of all, relativity isn't totally a settled question. The experimental evidence is somewhat limited. Anyone care to do Michelson-Morley, etc while travelling 0.99c relative to Earth, or to the local gravitational field, etc? Also Petr Beckmann has an alternative theory and so does http://www.webcom.com/~saa/. Anyone have any easy (and cheap!) ways to test any of that stuff out? In any event, even via conventional relativity, time doesn't reverse, it becomes imaginary! 2 t= sqrt(1-v ) where v is in terms of c Actually, that formula is derived from something like this: 2 2 t + v = 1 where t is the speed of time. So for sublight, t can just as well be pointing backwards (!) (so Tom Bearden's discussions of negative time do work here) and for above light speed, t is either imaginary (+I or -I)! Would that be another dimension at right angles to all the usual spatial and temporal ones? Also, if there exists imaginary spatial or time dimensions one could go faster than light easily. 2 2 2 2 x + y + z + t = 1 Try plugging imaginary numbers for the 3 spatial and the 1 temporal velocity there. Or plug in values over 1. Note how negative numbers work "normally". God only knows what might happen if you do get imaginary space or time. Hyperspatial/hypertemporal effects may be possible. You might be able to use it for free energy or other cool effects, but there could be some unpleasant effects too (that would be a very uncharted realm of discovery). Giving spacetime a positive/negative curvature is strange enough, a complex curvature is unreal. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:42:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA27059 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:42:18 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA27047 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:42:15 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id XAA20994; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:42:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:42:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Non-linearity, scalar effects, and possible device improvement Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Non-linearity, scalar effects, and possible device improvement Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:12:16 -0800 From: Frank T Lofaro Scalar waves seem to be a hot topic here, but I don't quite understand them (the Whittaker papers are confusing, Bearden is vague, etc). I do know about quaternions (and the fact they are in Maxwell's theory). Adding 2 quaternions with vector partss which are the opposite of each other gives zero. Only multiplication or something non-linear will give one a scalar part where none was before. (As a related aside, note how non-linearity is important in radio "detector" diodes and superheterodyne circuits for the frequency extraction, subtraction or addition) If I am not all confused about the above, perhaps a more certain/effective way of generating scalars could be found. By deliberately mixing 2 EM waves in a non-linear medium one could get scalars (and they wouldn't have to be 180 out of phase? or what?) So instead of winding a 2 winding coil, with 2 windings opposed, how about adding a 3rd winding, send DC through it, and partially saturate the core. How hard is that to do? Or changing the polaity of the 3rd coil on some entirely different frequency to what one is drivng the 2 other coils with to get other effects Or running all 3 at different frequencies, using one or more coils to drive the core into the nonlinear region. I know conventionally saturatable core transformers exist (not used anything like suggested above as far as I know), so I wonder if it isn't too hard to get a core which could be saturated without too much difficulty. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:47:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA28405 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:47:02 -0800 Received: from ix13.ix.netcom.com (ix13.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA28395 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:46:59 -0800 Received: from by ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA07034; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:44:21 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:44:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199512140744.XAA07034@ix13.ix.netcom.com> From: drted@ix.netcom.com (Ted Viens) Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >--- FORWARDED --- >From: fearl@l2.conline.com >To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:13:46 +0000 >Subject: Re: fnrg: Longitudinal EM Force > >> What is with this? How can anything rotate at c, when rotational speeds >> are given in rotations/time, and c is a unit of linear distance/time? > >If you'll note, there's a physical, linear distance that a point on >a disk travels while it's rotating. This point is going round and >round the axis of the disk at a linear velocity X which is >proportional to the angular velocity Y as given. If you rotate >something fast enough, you get a linear velocity that approaches "c". > > >Frank Earl >Earl Consulting Services- > > Earl, this is all fine and good, but we seem to be forgeting one small point... We are talking about VECTORS, symbols, there are no THINGS there. Vectors, mathematical representations that represent only a value and direction. Under everyday, here on my desk, conditions electrons travel in conductors at a very low portion of c, yet a voltage pulse travels at nearly c. Now if we were to twist and twirl the conductor into a really weird shape, apply a very large voltage pulse to the end and tape little pipe cleaner arrows measured in standard system units indicating the pulse vector at a series of points of the pulse passing along the wire, we would certainly have a great looking science project. Now, if we were to plot the displacement of the tip of these pipecleaner vector arrows with respect to time, we could certainly at some places, under some conditions, measure a displacement velocity of these tips that was faster than the speed of light. Yet, within the degree of certainty of our common system, nothing transrelativistic is happening. Only symbols went bonkers and travelled faster than the speed of light. -- Bye... Ted.. Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 15:41:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA25268 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:40:58 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA25211 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:40:46 -0800 Received: from t44.dialup.peg.apc.org (t44.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.172]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id KAA14204 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:39:56 +1000 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:39:56 +1000 Message-Id: <199512140039.KAA14204@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > >From: Sean a. Moran, 103274,2257 >TO: Listserver, INTERNET:majordomo@eskimo.com >DATE: 12/16/95 10:32 PM > >RE: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} > >Hello all. The names Sean M. well I finally found a place where I can talk about >Tesla and such without getting funny looks. I'm brand new to the list and can >see that this is the place where I can finally get some help on my expariaments. >I've built a Tesla coil and could use some help on get some good arks of the >thing. So far I've been able to light a floresent tube wireless but have only >gotten very small sparks from the tirode to a screw driver. Some hints on what >i'm doing wrong would be greatly appricated. > thanks Sean Sean, I've built a few of these things. Sounds like the circuit neads to be "tuned" to resonance. The easiest way I found to do this is to adjust the number of turns on the primary coil. The way we did this was to put "taps' on the coil like the old radio XTAL-SETS used to have on them. The idea is to then connect an alligator clip to the wire which would normally connect to the top of the coil and sequentially "tap" it into the primary coil starting at the top and working down. In effect, you are changing the number of turns on the coil. This alters the frequency at which the primary resonates so that when you finally get primary and secondary in tune the sparks really jump. Another thing we tried was a variation of the spark gap. This is usually a fixed gap but we had considerable success with using a "jacobs ladder" in which the gap consists of 2 vertical wires,say, half inch apart at the bottom and 1 inch apart at the top. The spark fires at the bottom and slowly travels to the top. The most important thing about a Tesla coil is to try and avoid connecting your body into the circuit while it is running. Do not approach within 6 feet of a functioning Tesla coil unless you have your hands firmly fixed in your pockets, or you have a SPECIFIC experiment in hand such as lighting a flourescent tube. The voltages, even from a small one, can be lethal depending on how Murphy's Law decides to treat you that day. One other thing - the broadband RF output tends to block out TV reception for hundreds of metres around you, so please be considerate of your neighbours (unless of couse their TV is too loud).Have fun...... Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 19:36:55 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA16631 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:36:28 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA16527 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:36:12 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-39.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-39.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.39]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA17399 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:33:38 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512140333.OAA17399@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:37:35 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 13 Dec 95 at 14:49, Jim Uban wrote: > > "If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, > the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it. > [Charles Hope] > > My take on this (in the context of what I said) is that if electric > and magnetic fields (as distinguished from EM radiation) operate in > an instantaneous action-at-a-distance means, then they do not actually So can you give an example of "action-at-a-distance"? [snip] Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 19:36:55 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA16639 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:36:31 -0800 Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA16540 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:36:14 -0800 Received: from dialup-a1-39.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-39.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.39]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA17393 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:33:35 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199512140333.OAA17393@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:37:36 +0900 Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 13 Dec 95 at 11:14, William Beaty wrote: [snip] > arguments about ether theories, the nature of gravity, etc. Anyone here > have access to EWW back issues?) [snip] I believe that my local University library keeps them. If you want something in particlar, give me a reference, and I can try to find it. Robin van Spaandonk Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. Robin Feb. 1995 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:10:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA19368 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:09:50 -0800 Received: from comoro.yorku.ca (lSzWdWJf9bI1p5W54XNBt555pT/D+TTK@comoro.yorku.ca [130.63.236.55]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA19345 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:09:45 -0800 Received: from CALUMET.YORKU.CA (asimov.calumet.yorku.ca [130.63.231.100]) by comoro.yorku.ca (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id CAA09031 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:09:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:09:41 -0500 Received: from ASIMOV-CALUMET/MERCURYMAIL by CALUMET.YORKU.CA (Mercury 1.21); 14 Dec 95 02:09:42 -500 Received: from MERCURYMAIL by ASIMOV-CALUMET (Mercury 1.21); 14 Dec 95 02:09:36 -500 Received: from calres202D.calumet.yorku.ca by CALUMET.YORKU.CA (Mercury 1.21); 14 Dec 95 02:09:30 -500 X-Sender: ccudahy@130.63.231.100 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: ccudahy@calumet.yorku.ca (Chris Cudahy) Subject: Re: fnrg: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Message-ID: <1C653BF0723@CALUMET.YORKU.CA> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >One other thing - the broadband RF output tends to block out TV reception >for hundreds of metres around you, so please be considerate of your >neighbours (unless of couse their TV is too loud).Have fun...... >Jim > Just wondering, I'm starting to put together a coil myself but i don't have a lot of space. Do i need to worry very much about grounding/power spikes induced voltage, frying my computer, ect. if i opperate a coil ? Does anyone have a guideline for a 'safe' distance ? (this is going to be for a small/first time coil) Thanks, Chris +--------------------------------------------------------+ |Chris Cudahy | B.SC. CS/Math - getting there| |ccudahy@calumet.yorku.ca | Swim Bike Run Colapse | |http://www-home.calumet.yorku.ca/ccudahy/www/home.htm | ---------------------------------------------------------+ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 00:41:49 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09671 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:41:47 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA09643 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:41:32 -0800 Received: from t17.dialup.peg.apc.org (t17.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.145]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id TAA22898 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:41:06 +1000 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:41:06 +1000 Message-Id: <199512140941.TAA22898@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>One other thing - the broadband RF output tends to block out TV reception >>for hundreds of metres around you, so please be considerate of your >>neighbours (unless of couse their TV is too loud).Have fun...... >>Jim >> > > Just wondering, I'm starting to put together a coil myself but i don't have >a lot of space. Do i need to worry very much about grounding/power spikes >induced voltage, frying my computer, ect. if i opperate a coil ? Does >anyone have a guideline for a 'safe' distance ? >(this is going to be for a small/first time coil) > >Thanks, >Chris Chris, there's one cardinal rule here. If your computer is ANYWHERE near your tesla the electrostatic discharge could "blow' the C-MOS chip in your computer. This chip is running constantly with its own micro-battery. Make sure the metal case of your computer is earthed to act as some sort of RF shield and make sure your computer is switched off at the mains. (leave the power plug in to retain your earth). Personally I would not run a tesla within 100ft of any equipment containing C-MOS or equivalent FET technology. I spent a lot of time in my electronics lab sorting out side-effects of our 2Mv tesla and this was 20 years ago when electronics weren't so sensitive. These days the micro-small chips can even be affected by intense human theta brain activity much to the surprise of a couple of F111 pilots who had to contend with micro-chip fly-by-wire technology and simultaneous mental trauma. If you're interested in just what can be done with mind/chip interaction check out http://www.flinet.com/~dmw/alcgroup.html Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:28:50 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA11012 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kaos.deepcove.com (kaos.deepcove.com [206.12.208.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10816 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepcove.com by Kaos.deepcove.com; Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:47 PST Received: by deepcove.com id A4267wk Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:53:28 From: greg.birdsall@deepcove.com Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <9512141053.A4267wk@deepcove.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:53:28 Subject: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the possibility of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would happen is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our dimension. One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 02:59:42 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA29219 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:17 -0800 Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA29191 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:12 -0800 Received: from s3c0p4.aa.net (s3c0p4.aa.net [204.157.220.136]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA31292 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:59:05 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512141059.CAA31292@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: mwm@aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: fnrg: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >>---------- Forwarded Message ---------- >> >>From: Sean a. Moran, 103274,2257 >>TO: Listserver, INTERNET:majordomo@eskimo.com >>DATE: 12/16/95 10:32 PM >> >>RE: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} >> >>Hello all. The names Sean M. well I finally found a place where I can talk >about >>Tesla and such without getting funny looks. I'm brand new to the list and can >>see that this is the place where I can finally get some help on my >expariaments. >>I've built a Tesla coil and could use some help on get some good arks of the >>thing. So far I've been able to light a floresent tube wireless but have only >>gotten very small sparks from the tirode to a screw driver. Some hints on what >>i'm doing wrong would be greatly appricated. >> thanks Sean > > >Sean, I've built a few of these things. Sounds like the circuit neads to be >"tuned" to resonance. The easiest way I found to do this is to adjust the >number of turns on the primary coil. The way we did this was to put "taps' >on the coil like the old radio XTAL-SETS used to have on them. The idea is >to then connect an alligator clip to the wire which would normally connect >to the top of the coil and sequentially "tap" it into the primary coil >starting at the top and working down. In effect, you are changing the number >of turns on the coil. This alters the frequency at which the primary >resonates so that when you finally get primary and secondary in tune the >sparks really jump. >Another thing we tried was a variation of the spark gap. This is usually a >fixed gap but we had considerable success with using a "jacobs ladder" in >which the gap consists of 2 vertical wires,say, half inch apart at the >bottom and 1 inch apart at the top. The spark fires at the bottom and slowly >travels to the top. >The most important thing about a Tesla coil is to try and avoid connecting >your body into the circuit while it is running. Do not approach within 6 >feet of a functioning Tesla coil unless you have your hands firmly fixed in >your pockets, or you have a SPECIFIC experiment in hand such as lighting a >flourescent tube. The voltages, even from a small one, can be lethal >depending on how Murphy's Law decides to treat you that day. >One other thing - the broadband RF output tends to block out TV reception >for hundreds of metres around you, so please be considerate of your >neighbours (unless of couse their TV is too loud).Have fun...... >Jim > > Here is a tip for tuning your coil if you have a free standing verticle one: I built a primary which hangs from the overhead on nylon fly, allowing me to raise and lower the secondary, through a pully from a very great distance, which is wound around a plastic sewer pipe with about 2" of extra diameter (larger than the primary), such that: | | | | | |Secondary | | | | || ||Primary || || | | This requires very precise verticle alignments and balancing which a bit of fidgeting will sort out. It helps to put little spacers inside the primary tube, a plastic with low friction. It works very well in allowing you to observe the "nodes" of min and max - permitting you to adjust the plasma discharge to any desired length. I can tune it so well, I get saturation with plasma sheets running the full length of the coil on the outside of a plastic pipe in which the secondary is encased. Don't run it that way, though, because you will get too much current flow heat and possibly burn out the turns of the secondary. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:28:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA10809 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kaos.deepcove.com (kaos.deepcove.com [206.12.208.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10645 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepcove.com by Kaos.deepcove.com; Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:48 PST Received: by deepcove.com id A4269wk Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:32:03 From: greg.birdsall@deepcove.com Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <9512141132.A4269wk@deepcove.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:32:03 Subject: fnrg: RE: FNRG: COPY OF: FI To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re the use of tesla coils around computers etc. Be very careful. My friend fired a medium size one up in an apartment building and fried adjacent comnputers, digital clocks etc. I fired one up in a large film studio and there were sparks jumping out of an outlet over 100 ft from the coil. I would suggest working with tesla coils in environments which have no electronic equipment. sincerely, Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:28:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA10671 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kaos.deepcove.com (kaos.deepcove.com [206.12.208.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10579 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepcove.com by Kaos.deepcove.com; Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:48 PST Received: by deepcove.com id A4272wk Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:32:07 From: greg.birdsall@deepcove.com Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <9512141132.A4272wk@deepcove.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:32:07 Subject: fnrg: RE: FNRG: COPY OF: FI To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The imput choke is a good idea as long as the RF energy from the coil can't somehow get past it. The two situations I cited of damage to equipment were at high power levels and with no input filtering. A small coil is no big problem anyway. greg.birdsall@deepcove.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 04:23:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA10593 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 04:21:43 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA10570 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 04:21:34 -0800 Received: from t17.dialup.peg.apc.org (t7.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.135]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id XAA07848 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:21:07 +1000 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:21:07 +1000 Message-Id: <199512141321.XAA07848@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>> >>>---------- Forwarded Message ---------- >>> >>>From: Sean a. Moran, 103274,2257 >>>TO: Listserver, INTERNET:majordomo@eskimo.com >>>DATE: 12/16/95 10:32 PM >>> >>>RE: Copy of: First time builder {Tesla coil} >>> >>>Hello all. The names Sean M. well I finally found a place where I can talk >>about >>>Tesla and such without getting funny looks. I'm brand new to the list a>discharge to any desired length. I can tune it so well, I get saturation >with plasma sheets running the full length of the coil on the outside of a >plastic pipe in which the secondary is encased. Don't run it that way, >though, because you will get too much current flow heat and possibly burn >out the turns of the secondary. >____________________________________ >MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >Michael Mandeville, publisher How is your capacitor built. Depending on construction you might be able to change its capacitance. You either have to alter the capacitor or the inductance to change the resonant frequency. By altering the height of the primary by pulleys etc. you are changing the COUPLING between the 2 coils. I've found that once you get everything in resonance you can experiment with this coupling and type of spark gap to produce even greater effects. The capacitor on my tesla was made of vertically standing glass plates with alfoil on one side of each plate. The closer the plates ...the higher the capacitance....the lower the resonant frequency. I had the advantage of having elaborate inductance meters and other test gear and I was able to calculate the resonance of each coil. It saved a lot of initial time and experimenting but in the final analysis the coupling and the spark gap produced the final results I wanted. Once you get these monster things up and running you start to enjoy the smell of ozone and they make a perfect insect terminator! Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:06:38 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA16175 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:05:21 -0800 Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.wellfleet.com [192.32.253.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA16146 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:05:15 -0800 Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com (pobox.wellfleet.com) by lobster.wellfleet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05361; Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:02:56 EST Received: from rvator.engeast by pobox.BayNetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03613; Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:03:54 EST Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:03:54 EST From: juban@baynetworks.com (Jim Uban) Message-Id: <9512141503.AA03613@pobox.BayNetworks.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "So can you give an example of "action-at-a-distance"?" [Robin van Spaandonk] Well, Newton's original conception of gravity was action-at- a-distance. This means two gravitating bodies simply 'know' about each other and feel the effect without the mediation of any carrier of the information. Field physics gives the mediation to the field, which is really a more mechanical description of the operation of non-contact forces: the field provides a way for the force to get from here to there, which our minds would prefer. Action-at-a-distance is more akin to quantum effects, particularly as in Bohm's formulation of QM where all points are instantaneously connected. So, in this way, Newton may be coming full circle and his methods more appropriate for today's physics than the mechanical field concepts. As an example, I stated that Nasa uses this model in their spacecraft navigation equations (so I've been told). They treat gravitating bodies as having instantaneous effect on the spacecraft, rather than time-retarded as would be expected with a field interaction mechanism. Jim U. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:41:21 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA27368 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:41:13 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA27279 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:40:59 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA15805; Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:29:43 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:40:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:16:34 EST Message-Id: <4F06+Gz1okA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > "If any sort of interaction could transmit information faster than light, > the receiver would receive the information before the sender had sent it." > > Maybe not. What about the apparent faster than light, or action at a > distance effects seen with quantum paired particles? The spin of the > second particle cannot be proven to have happened bvefore the event took > place with the first particle in the pair, can it? > > >I'm not sure I believe in them. Is logical consistency a requirement for >existence, for you? Violation of causality is hard to chew. In this case, >it really means time travel. Can I send my grandfather a message from the >future, convincing him to join the priesthood and avoid having my mother? > >Charles Excellent point, however, they empericaly do exist, and so I will beleive in them untill some other (better) explaination for the physical results comes along. Is logical consistency a requirement for existance? Yes, but can we assume we currently know enough to say these observed effects cannot have a logical explaination yet? I'm not willing to assume that we do. People do construct actuall experiments that show this phenomena, and they apparently work as predicted. Quantum tunneling is much the same, as it does not easily fit into our concepts of reality, but it is real none the less. The universe apparently does not need to conform to our current ideas of what is logical, it's up to our logic to conform with reality, not the other way around. I see no reason to dismiss phenomena thaat does not fit our day to day view of reality, such as wave-particle duality. We must accept that this is the way it is, untill such time that a better model is avaialble. On the issus of causality, we may advoid this if space is non-locally interconnected. We might be seeing some evidence for higher dimensionality of the particles duality. Duality is making great inroads into string theory these days. Where it might lead is anyones guess right now. There's always Everett-Wheeler waiting in the wings to rescue us from paradoxes. It's not been disproven, and might one day be proven to be valid. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 08:01:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA03829 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:01:39 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03813 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:01:35 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA16726; Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:50:24 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Thu, 14 Dec 95 11:01:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:45:24 EST Message-Id: <4F06+IO2okA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Non-linearity, scalar effects, and possible device impro X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >So instead of winding a 2 winding coil, with 2 windings opposed, how >about adding a 3rd winding, send DC through it, and partially saturate >the core. How hard is that to do? Or changing the polaity of the 3rd >coil on some entirely different frequency to what one is drivng the 2 >other coils with to get other effects Or running all 3 at different >frequencies, using one or more coils to drive the core into the >nonlinear region. > >I know conventionally saturatable core transformers exist (not used >anything like suggested above as far as I know), so I wonder if it >isn't too hard to get a core which could be saturated without too much >difficulty. This has been done, any old junk TV has a "pin-cushion" transoformer that is a saturable reactor. If you look closly at a text on magnetic amplifiers, you will also find non-polarized saturable reactors have opposed coils. You can also apply an AC signal to the control windings, and induce equal but oposite currents in each secondary winding without the back EMF flux from effecting the other coil. This assmes the secondaries are perfectly matched. The three legged cores from TV's work well for building custom devices. In my limited experiance with these devices, you can generate a "current" in a wire that is "scalar", but cannot directly generate free space waves in this manner. What works and what appears not to work are not always as clear in this technology as we wish. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 13:14:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA27660 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:14:04 -0800 Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA27587 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:13:51 -0800 Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tQKyH-001VvRC; Thu, 14 Dec 95 15:13 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: Rotating Fields To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:13:45 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5520 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ernest Cullwick was one of the first people, back in 1957, to notice that there is an unusual problem in trying analyze a rotating EM wave. There hasn't been much formal work done on this subject since Cullwick's book (at least not that we know about). But, it's evident from the the discussion in this forum over the last few days, that the mysterious properties of the circulating EM wave have not gone completely un-noticed. Here's a few more things about it. -- Robert Stirniman ===================================================================== First some correspondence I received about two months ago: Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:01:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Jim McClune To: Robert Stirniman Subject: Circulating EM Waves If you work out the metric for EM waves circulating in a cavity you get some strange results. There is a preliminary discussion of this effect in the article by Houshang Ardavan, 'Gravitational Waves from Electromagnetic Waves' in the book "Classical General Relativity," edited by W.B. Bonner, I.N. Islam and M.A.H. MacCollum (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1984). It is something I have seen done. At the point in an annular cavity where the phase velocity goes from less than c to greater than c, a term shows up in the derived metric of the system that looks like a source term. On the other hand you have assumed that the metric is source free in the EM region of the cavity. So you get a solution which contradicts the hypothesis that went into building the solution. You get something which is possibly unphysical. Now Einstein's equation and the associated geometry is pretty tricky and it is easy to get unphysical solutions. The final arbitors of whether a solution is satisfactory or not is physical reasonability and self consistancy (these are almost the same thing). The cavity problem seems very physically reasonable initially, but ends with a self-consistancy problem which appears to be unphysical. Also, Cauchy's theorem does not apply to this case since it becomes a mixed type problem (elliptic and hyperbolic PDEs), so the Hawking singularity theorems don't a priori apply. It is something very interesting, but to publish it with out being scoffed at would take a lot of work and possibly inventing some new math. -- Jim McClune, University of Missouri ================================================================== Next some comments by Dr Dennis Cravens in a report titled "Electric Propulsion Study", done for the Astronautics Laboratory at Edwards AFB. August 1990. Dennis Cravens was formerly with SAIC Corp, and is now working with CETI in development of cold fusion. Anyway, here's some things he says in the electric propulsion report about the "peculiarities" of a rotating magnet: ROTATION OF MAGNETS - There is a continuing debate in physics as to the reality of the magnetic field. The prime question is whether the axial magnetic field of a bar magnet rotates with the magnet or is stationary. The Faraday homopolar generator dates back to the 1830s. DePalma, Tewari, and others have attempted to utilize the Faraday generator to produce more power than needed to run it. Most objective reviews of the work have, however, failed to see such effects. It is doubtful that these claims will be independently validated and even more doubtful that they will lead directly to a propulsive system. However, the work on homopolar generators as high current devices is reasonable and may be useful for ground uses. The angular momentum complications seem to rule the system out for any practical space applications. SEARL EFFECT - The Searl Effect is a separate issue from homopolar generator above. Searl has claimed to produce disk levitation by rapidly rotating magnets. There have been claims of anti-gravity, high electric fields, perpetual motion, inertial loss, and gas ionization. All these claims come from Searl or those supportive of his work and no outside witnesses are available. Searl has not supplied any technical data or specifics of the operation in any easily referenced source. It is not recommended that his work be experimentally followed by the USAF. It is worth noting however, that a rotating magnet does have some definite theorectical peculiarities. Through the years there have been many interesting developments concerning the Faraday Homopolar generator. DePalma has claimed to get more energy out than is supplied to the the generator. None of the claims seem to withstand careful examination and no machine has ever been made self driving. The underlying reason that such claims continue to surface is that rotating magnetic fields are extremely difficult to handle within existing theories. This is because for a rotating frame there is a distance (removed from the axis) which is travelling at velocities greater than c. Although the distance is not withing any real physical object, it's existence within the mathematical development greatly complicates any calculations. References: DePalma B.E., "Electro-Mechanical Device for the Amplification of Electrical Power", The New Age Science Magazine, No 7, 1980 Tewari P., "Generation of Electrical Power from Absolute Vacuum by High Speed Rotation of Conducting Magnetic Cylinder", Tech. Rep. Dept. of Atomic Energy, Bombay India, 1985 Searl, J.R.R., British provisional patent specification #57578, 1970 =================================================================== From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 15:13:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA11452 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:13:39 -0800 Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA11399 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:13:30 -0800 Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01521 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 18:20:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 18:20:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199512142320.SAA01521@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: Yes Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "If you want more details, I can dig them out for you. Jim U." Please do, I'm sure everyone here would appreciate this. Also, concerning Mike Watsons letter to NEN. He mentions the free space resonant frequency as being around 47Mhz, given by 1/(2*PI*sqrt(epsilon*mu)). Please explain how you can take a velocity ( in this case C ), multiply by a dimensionless number, and come up with a frequency? What's up with this? K. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 20:35:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA00487 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:35:33 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA00442 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:35:26 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA13588; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:33:31 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:33:30 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating fields. In-Reply-To: <4F06+Gz1okA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > > Excellent point, however, they empericaly do exist, and so I will beleive > in them untill some other (better) explaination for the physical results > comes along. Is logical consistency a requirement for existance? Yes, but > can we assume we currently know enough to say these observed effects cannot > have a logical explaination yet? I'm not willing to assume that we do. > > People do construct actuall experiments that show this phenomena, and they > apparently work as predicted. Quantum tunneling is much the same, as it > does not easily fit into our concepts of reality, but it is real none the > less. > > The universe apparently does not need to conform to our current ideas of > what is logical, it's up to our logic to conform with reality, not the > other way around. I don't know enough on this topic to be able to shed real wisdom, but there comes a time, even though I like bizarre theories, that one should wonder about the interpretation of experiments. Experiments that appear to imply time-reversal and acausality indicate to me that some thought is due. I can't accept anything that is logically inconsistent. I'm willing to accept some nonstandard logics, however. Is there an experimental result that really shows that space is nonsimply connected? Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 12:38:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA22921 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:37:41 -0800 Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA22847 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:37:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199512152037.MAA22847@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:39:05 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:03 PM 12/15/95 EST, you wrote: >"It was my understanding that according to the standard model, there is no >such thing as a rotating B field, as the B field is understood to remain >stationary while the magnet spins in the homopolar generator." In the Philadelphia Experiment, I believe that there were three or four conical shaped Tesla Coils on board the ship, all peaking slightly out of phase, so it would have had an effect something like a coin having been spun on its edge on a table top, as it rocks part way toward its rest condition, a spiraling effect, possibly along the lines of what is being discussed here. Gary --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 21:10:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA10111 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:10:23 -0800 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA10079 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:10:17 -0800 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA24761; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:08:52 -0500 Date: 15 Dec 95 00:06:01 EST From: "Sean a. Moran" <103274.2257@compuserve.com> To: freenrg-list Subject: fnrg: thanks Jim Message-ID: <951215050601_103274.2257_IHH100-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim Thanks for the info and the coil hints. I figure it's just that I need to make a bigger cap. I really appricate it. nice to know that there are diffrent ways to line it up. I just need a few more days to get it to resonate. Than I can take it to school and get some credit on it. Oh did I mention that I was 17. just thought that I would tell the group. But I can converse with the best of them. I am learning so much here it Great! thanks agian. Sean. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 21:37:50 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA17481 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:37:30 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA17445 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:37:24 -0800 Received: from t21.dialup.peg.apc.org (t21.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.149]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id QAA24640 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:36:55 +1000 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:36:55 +1000 Message-Id: <199512150636.QAA24640@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: thanks Jim Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Jim > Thanks for the info and the coil hints. I figure it's just that I need to >make a bigger cap. I really appricate it. nice to know that there are diffrent No...I think your capacitor is large enough >ways to line it up. I just need a few more days to get it to resonate. Than I >can take it to school and get some credit on it. Oh did I mention that I was 17. >just thought that I would tell the group. But I can converse with the best of >them. I am learning so much here it Great! > thanks agian. > Sean. > OK Sean, Good luck with the project ...but.....PLEASE....don't let any kids near it when it is switched on...and even after you've switched it off ...treat it as potentially live until any potential stored charges dissipate!!!! Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 21:08:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA06311 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:07:52 -0800 Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA06178 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:07:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199512160507.VAA06178@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:07:40 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Hubbard Article Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: THE POST-INTELLIGENCER Seattle, Washington, Thursday, July 29, 1920 ************************************************ Hubbard Coil Runs Boat On Portage Bay Ten Knots An Hour; Auto Test Next _______ Seattle Boy Inventor Makes Good His Claims of Last December When He Announced Discovery to P.I. _____________________________________ HUBBARD'S CLAIMS If young Hubbard's claims are correct regarding the newest coil he has perfected, and which propelled a boat yesterday, these are a few of the things the coil would do without cost other than the initial outlay of $90: Drive a large touring car at normal speed. Illuminate a moderate-sized office building. Furnish current for lighting, cooking, and heating for a large residence Heat seven two room apartments. ___________________ Alfred M. Hubbard, Seattle boy inventor of a device which for want of a better name he terms an atmospheric power generator, yesterday made good his prediction that he would drive a motorboat with the apparatus as a source of power. An eighteen foot boat, propelled by a thirty-five-horse power electric motor, which obtained its current from the Hubbard coil, was driven about Portage Bay on Lake Union. Among those who witnessed the demonstration was a well-known local capitalist, the inventor's father,William H. Hubbard, and a Post Intelligencer reporter. The boat traveled at a speed of between eight and ten knots--silently, except for the whirring of a chain belt which connected the motor with the propeller shaft. When the chain belt was removed, the motor ran free at a speed estimated at 3,500 revolutions [the rest of this line is unreadable R.L.R.] No Hidden Wires Found. To guard against the possibility of ordinary storage batteries concealed about the boat as a power source, instead of the Hubbard coil, both electric motor and coil were lifted free from their blocks, but no hidden wiring was revealed. The coil used as a power unit was eleven inches in diameter and fourteen inches in length. According to Hubbard, tests of the coil show a current of 280 amperes and 125 volts, which, he pointed out was equivalent to approximately forty-five horse power, or sufficient to drive an automobile. The current is pulsating. The electric motor was approximately twelve inches in diameter eighteen inches in length. It had been reconstructed in order to be used with the Hubbard coil. After his ride in the strange powered craft the capitalist declared that he was frankly puzzled, but that he desired an electrical engineer in his employ to make an examination of the coil before he felt free to discuss it. Since last December, when the Post-Intelligencer first made public the claims of the youthful inventor, he has been more or less in retirement, perfecting his coil. He took up his residence in Everett where, with the assistance of Everett backers he worked on his device. A local capitalist agreed to witness a demonstration of the coil to determine its practicability as a power source. The motorboat was fitted with blocks on which to rest the motor and the propeller shaft geared for a chained belt. When the motor was first tried out after its installation in the boat it ran backwards. So involved are the connections between the motor and the coil that fully a half-hour's experimentation was necessary before the motor shaft revolved in the right direction. That the capitalist was frankly skeptical of the device was plain when he,with two other passengers, boarded the boat at the Seattle Yacht Club wharf. All the machinery that was visible was the coil and the motor, the latter plainly geared to the propeller shaft. The boat shoved off, Hubbard threw the switch, and instantly the boat began to pick up speed. It circled about the bay and returned to the wharf, with never a slackening of speed. The wires connecting coil and motor had begun to heat under the excessive current, and, fearing that some part of the coil might give way under the extra heavy strain put on it, Hubbard declined to permit the motor to be run continuously for any length of time. It was tried out later several times, after brief periods which allowed the wires to cool, and its power apparently showed no diminution. No instruments were used to test its wattage. The capitalist admitted that the demonstration intrigued his interest, but that he would wait for his expert's opinion before discussing it. Following the demonstration, the young inventor declared that within a few days he expected to drive an automobile with the coil as a power unit. The Coil used yesterday had been built especially for the demonstration, and is nearly twice the size of the coil Hubbard used in his demonstration last winter. The large coil cost approximately $90 to construct. The inventor says that so far as he has been able to learn its life as a power unit is indefinite. He declared that a coil large enough to drive an airplane would be no more than three times the size of the coil used yesterday, and that a machine thus equipped could fly around the world without stopping, so far as the power supply is concerned. While the device has been patented, the claims for it are so broad that Hubbard says he does not feel safe in making public his secret. In general, he says, it is made up of a group of eight electro-magnets, each with primary and secondary windings of copper wire, which are arranged around a large steel core. The core likewise has a single winding. A coil thus constructed, he says, is lifeless until given an initial impulse. This is done by connecting the ends of its windings for a fraction of a second to an ordinary[two words unreadable R.L.R.] -ing circuit, he says. The manner of this momentary charging, however, constitutes the principal secret of the device, according to the inventor, who says that while machinists have built a number of coils for him under his direction, they have been unable to "start" them. In the event the power of the coil should diminish, it can be rejuvenated in less than a second, Hubbard says. ______________________________________ Photo captions 1-- Arrangement of Hubbard coil and motor in boat. The motor is nearest the bow. 2-- Alfred M. Hubbard, inventor of the coil used as a power unit. 3--The boat under way, driven by a motor which obtained its power from the Hubbard coil. _______________ Photos by Walter P. Miller, Post-Intelligencer Staff Photographer. --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 06:35:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA20585 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 06:32:14 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA20576 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 06:32:10 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA10471; Fri, 15 Dec 95 09:21:00 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 15 Dec 95 9:31:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 9:24:48 EST Message-Id: <4F06+kIMokA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: RE: Rotating waves. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "The underlying reason that such claims continue to surface is that rotating magnetic fields are extremely difficult to handle within existing theories. This is because for a rotating frame there is a distance (removed from the axis) which is travelling at velocities greater than c. Although the distance is not withing any real physical object, it's existence within the mathematical development greatly complicates any calculations." Not within any real object eh? Well, the space inside the sets of paired boradside arrays might not be "real", but it is physically there, and finite, with measurable parameters. Just what actually happens is the specific situation described cannot as I understand it be predicted by current theory, is this so? Thanks for the excellent post on the subject, it's food for thought to say the least! From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 09:25:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA13968 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:25:43 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA13925 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:25:34 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA17516; Fri, 15 Dec 95 12:14:13 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 15 Dec 95 12:24:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 11:02:42 EST Message-Id: <4F06+WkNokA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Is space non-simply connected? X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Is there an experimental result that really shows that space is nonsimply connected?" There may be, it's one interpretation of several experiments, probably starting off with the good old two slit experiment, where the interference patters change if one slit is covered, even though particles or photons only enter the sevice one at a time. This lead to the sum of histories theory, where the "particle" actually goes through all possible paths, and we only see the sum of all possible histories. More bizzare are reports of optical interferometers that exhibit quantum pair coupling, where effecting one side of the interferometer will change the interference pattern on the other side of a beam splitter by this quantum pairing alone. I think this rather complex system was described in Sci-Am some short time ago, but I'm not completely sure about that. It was discussed at great length over the newsgroups at the time. Also, the good old tunnel diode'd operation shows a form of particle "transfer" that might also show non-local of non-simply connected phenomena, as does the Aharnov-Bohm effect, in both the electrostatic and magnetostatic cases. I'd much prefer that space were non-simply connected, as this gives us a way out of some otherwise paradoxical observations of real systems. While not "proven", I feel it is highly suggested in several different types of phenomena. It also might make the concept of virtual particles easier to accept, these are often though to have no real "existance" even though they have quite real and measureable effects. These virtual particles may be nothing more than "missing mass" moving through non-locally connected space, giving them an apparent lack of temporal stability, but no release of energy as they "disappear". They probably do not "disappear" as such, as they might now be that virtual particle that just showed up somewhere else witout needing any energy for it's "creation". We might infer from such a model that it's pure potentials alone that "effect" non local connections through space. Quantum effects might not be quite so "statistical" in their nature, but no less unpredicatable, as you cannot measure the potential without collapsing the quantum wave function of that potential. If potentials are just polarizations in the virtual particle flux of the vaccum, this can all fit into place, in that these potentials are in a way, actually ploarizations of prefered non-local spatial connections along which the "virtual" particles move. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 11:34:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00672 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:34:02 -0800 Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00629 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:33:55 -0800 Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA25896; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:31:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:31:57 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Robert Stirniman wrote: > > Next some comments by Dr Dennis Cravens in a report titled > "Electric Propulsion Study", done for the Astronautics Laboratory > at Edwards AFB. August 1990. Dennis Cravens was formerly with > SAIC Corp, and is now working with CETI in development of cold > fusion. Anyway, here's some things he says in the electric propulsion > report about the "peculiarities" of a rotating magnet: Does this mean that you finally were able to get your hands on that report, the table of contents of which you posted weeks ago? > > Through the years there have been many interesting developments > concerning the Faraday Homopolar generator. DePalma has claimed > to get more energy out than is supplied to the the generator. > None of the claims seem to withstand careful examination and no > machine has ever been made self driving. The underlying reason > that such claims continue to surface is that rotating magnetic > fields are extremely difficult to handle within existing theories. > This is because for a rotating frame there is a distance (removed > from the axis) which is travelling at velocities greater than > c. Although the distance is not withing any real physical object, > it's existence within the mathematical development greatly > complicates any calculations. It was my understanding that according to the standard model, there is no such thing as a rotating B field, as the B field is understood to remain stationary while the magnet spins in the homopolar generator. Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 12:12:25 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA13902 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:12:18 -0800 Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13875 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:12:13 -0800 Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA05105; Fri, 15 Dec 95 15:01:05 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 15 Dec 95 15:11:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 15:03:54 EST Message-Id: <4F06+eGRokA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "It was my understanding that according to the standard model, there is no such thing as a rotating B field, as the B field is understood to remain stationary while the magnet spins in the homopolar generator." This is where Hoopers VxB may come into play. Some have pointed out that the low frequencies used by Hooper may have passed through the sheilding used, Hoopers work should be redone with higher frequencies for a definitive answer. While the field of a magnet might be thought to remain stationary, this is not the case for a magnetic field resulting from the vector summnation of radiated waves. So either way, we can construct the situation described. Just how one would go about studying the results is another issue, just what should one look for in this situation? What equipment or tests should be mandatory if we were to implement this condition physically? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 12:17:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA15552 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:17:27 -0800 Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA15507 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:17:19 -0800 Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA23001; Fri, 15 Dec 95 15:16:49 EST Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 15:16:49 EST Message-Id: <9512152016.AA23001@clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: fwd: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Dec. 13, Robert Shannon wrote: >This could only make sense if empty space generated the push, and atomic >matter absorbed this push. We would cling to the surface of the earth like >crud in a drain screen. The center of the earth would be gravity free, as >the "flow" of push would be equal from all directions. > >Gravity would only be a difference in this "pressure" accross an object. > >With the push resulting from space itself, Hubble expansion takes on a new >meaning, gravitational shadows still work, and the plumb-bob's may also be >explained. (deletions) I just read the Keelynet references to this. Did this really happen? Did both the French and American Geodetic Surveys confirm this phenomenon? I really find it hard to believe that this experimental result could have simply been ignored for so long. It occurs to me however that the results of these experiments would be rather consistent with gravity in the way that Sakharov and more recently Harold Puthoff have been looking at it (ie. as a consequence of the ZPF "pressure"). Do you think Puthoff knows about these experiments? Is he or Scott Little following this discussion on this listserver? (I think Scott was here for a while). Bizarre!! regards Gary From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 18:23:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA20407 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:23:45 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA20389 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:23:42 -0800 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id SAA04033; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:23:41 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:23:40 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Compass anomaly? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded from private correspondence ---------- Subject: anomalies detected 2-3Dec95 To Byron Weber and ALL Did anyone besides Byron (especially pilots) notice any strange phenomena that occurred on the evenings of 2-3Dec95, anywhere on the US West Coast? Byron noticed a short-term, but notable, increase in static electricity near Tonopah, NV. In addition, according to Art Bell on his radio show, several pilots west of the Mississippi noticed unusual magnetic deviations on their compasses, especially in the Portland, OR area -- where compasses were off by >10 degrees, apparently only for a few hours. Both of these phenomena,(and possibly some other side-effects), if they really happened, may be related to HAARP, the High- Frequency Auroral Research Program. It's supposed to be doing some ionospheric testing -- described as "Wierd Science" in the AvWeek article on p. 11 of the 26Sep94 AWST. I've reason to believe that some calibration tests were done 2-3 Dec95, using a receiving antenna field in the CA/NV area, which would be an end-point for the straight line through Portland, OR to the HAARP antenna field in Central Alaska. The magnetic effects noticed in Portland may have been similar to the effects during SEVERE geomagnetic storms as a result of solar outbursts of energy. Schulk From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 16:22:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA13562 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:22:25 -0800 Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA13518 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:22:16 -0800 Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA14373; Fri, 15 Dec 95 19:17:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:17:54 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: fnrg: Ion Engine To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Everyone. I am new to this group. Allow me to introduce myself; My name is Wolfgang Starchild, I am an aeronautical scientist interested in non-conventional methods of propulsion [i.e. Biefield-Brown, T.T. Brown, Searle] I decided to join this group in hopes of expanding my knowledge and lending a hand where possible. I recently read a book by T.B. Pawlicki entitled "How to build a flying saucer" and the book briefly mentioned an engine which uses ions to create thrust or, an Ion Engine. I have done much research on this topic and was wondering if anyone might have more information on the subject. Any information would be greatly appreiceated! Thanks In Advance Wolf Skyward Aerospace Company Box 29062 - 125 Carlton Street St. Catharines, ON L2R-7P9 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 20:18:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA22558 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:18:13 -0800 Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA22509 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:18:02 -0800 Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tQo49-001VyLC; Fri, 15 Dec 95 22:17 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 22:17:45 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Charles Hope" at Dec 15, 95 02:31:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 921 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > > > Next some comments by Dr Dennis Cravens in a report titled > > "Electric Propulsion Study", done for the Astronautics Laboratory > > at Edwards AFB. August 1990. Dennis Cravens was formerly with > > SAIC Corp, and is now working with CETI in development of cold > > fusion. Anyway, here's some things he says in the electric propulsion > > report about the "peculiarities" of a rotating magnet: > > Does this mean that you finally were able to get your hands on that > report, the table of contents of which you posted weeks ago? Yes. I have a copy of this report and another related report, furnished by Dr Frank Mead of Edwards AFB. These were extra copies, that he had on hand. These are publicly available reports. I am getting information about how to obtain them and will post in a few days -- and also will post reviews of the info in these two reports. Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 17:18:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA02232 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:18:35 -0800 Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA02113 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:18:15 -0800 Received: from t18.dialup.peg.apc.org (t18.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.146]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id MAA01340 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:17:31 +1000 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:17:31 +1000 Message-Id: <199512160217.MAA01340@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Hello Everyone. I am new to this group. Allow me to introduce >myself; My name is Wolfgang Starchild, I am an aeronautical scientist subject. > > Any information would be greatly appreiceated! > >Thanks In Advance >Wolf > >Skyward Aerospace Company > Robert Jahn from Princeton University (Engineering Lab) wrote a manual about electronic space propulsion. Have forgotten the name of it but you might already be aware of it. Supposed to be quite an authorative textbook. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 21:30:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA20849 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA20831 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:29:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512170529.VAA20831@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:44:30 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Re: Ion Experiment Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This message might not have gone through before: In keeping my promise to place a photograph of an ion-type Biefield-Brown sort of device that I did some work with, on the web, it is now at: http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/nipd/nipd2.html The size of the larger ring was a result of starting with a 3' piece of tubing, wrapped into a circle. A larger surface area might increase its vertical force by much more than the extra weight. Gary Hawkins --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 08:46:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA06460 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 08:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA06436 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 08:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA19206; Sat, 16 Dec 95 11:40:11 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:40:11 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512160217.MAA01340@peg.apc.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Jim Francis wrote: > Robert Jahn from Princeton University (Engineering Lab) wrote a manual about > electronic space propulsion. Have forgotten the name of it but you might > already be aware of it. Supposed to be quite an authorative textbook. Hmmm, I may have already gotten that one was it by chance "Industrial Atomic Energy"? Thanks for the help Wolf wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 11:33:52 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA22086 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from comoro.yorku.ca (comoro.yorku.ca [130.63.236.55]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22048 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from CALUMET.YORKU.CA (asimov.calumet.yorku.ca [130.63.231.100]) by comoro.yorku.ca (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA30530 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:32:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:32:55 -0500 Received: from ASIMOV-CALUMET/MERCURYMAIL by CALUMET.YORKU.CA (Mercury 1.21); 16 Dec 95 14:32:57 -500 Received: from MERCURYMAIL by ASIMOV-CALUMET (Mercury 1.21); 16 Dec 95 14:32:37 -500 Received: from calres202D.calumet.yorku.ca by CALUMET.YORKU.CA (Mercury 1.21); 16 Dec 95 14:32:30 -500 X-Sender: ccudahy@130.63.231.100 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: ccudahy@calumet.yorku.ca (Chris Cudahy) Subject: fnrg: Thanks for the info Message-ID: <202B7F268D0@CALUMET.YORKU.CA> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to the people who sent me the suggestions on safe opperating distances between tesla coils and exectronics. I accidently deleted the mail before i could reply, so i can't thank you personally! Chris +--------------------------------------------------------+ |Chris Cudahy | B.SC. CS/Math - getting there| |ccudahy@calumet.yorku.ca | Swim Bike Run Colapse | |http://www-home.calumet.yorku.ca/ccudahy/www/home.htm | ---------------------------------------------------------+ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:40:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA10108 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA10086 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tR371-001VvRC; Sat, 16 Dec 95 14:21 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: Electric Propulsion Reports To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:21:43 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have obtained copies of two reports about electric propulsion, that were prepared for the USAF. "Electric Propulsion Study", By Dennis L. Cravens of SAIC Corp, Prepared for the (former) Astronautics Laboratory, Air Force Space Technology Center, at Edwards AFB. August 1990. This number is at the top of the cover page: AL-TR-89-040 "Twenty First Century Propulsion Concept", by R.L. Talley of Veritay Technology Inc, East Amherst NY. Prepared for the Phillips Laboratory, Air Force Systems Command, Propulsion Directorate, Edwards AFB. May 1991. This number is at the top of the cover page: PL-TR-91-3009 These two reports were sent to me as a courtesy by Dr Frank Mead of Edwards AFB, and were extra copies which he happened to have on hand. Additional copies can be obtained from the "Defense Technical Information Center" (DTIC). DTIC Cameron Station Alexandria VA 22304 Phone: 800-225-3842 I've called this number a few times. It's real, and you can purchase reports from there. They have an overly elaborate electronic answering system, and I've never yet been able to reach a human being. So, I don't know the prices or details. DTIC may also may have other reports of interest. Good luck finding them. In my opinion, the first report (Electric Propulsion Study) contains a fairly thorough overview of useful background information relating to unification of the electromagnetic and gravitational fields (I will post a detailed review of the contents). Depending on the cost, this report is probably well worth purchasing by anyone with an active interest in this area. However, if you're expecting to find revelations, you might be disappointed -- afterall, it is unclassified. In my opinion, the second report (Twenty First Century Propulsion Concept) is not worth purchasing. The report presents findings of a test of the Biefield-Brown effect -- with negative results. The experimenter spent a lot of time and resources determining how to detect and measure an anomalous effect, and writing about how to set-up a torsion balance instrument system in a vacuum. But he made relatively little effort in trying to find actual anomalous effects. He was apparently inexperienced in working with high voltage, and could not get the system to withstand a voltage level greater than 19 Kv. And, he used a variety of ball-and-disk capacitor/dielectric configurations, which seem to me to be far from optimum. Furthermore, the experiment was conducted using a nearly flat DC power source, rather than a pulsed DC waveform. No anomalous effects were found in the normal conduct of the experiment. However, at the very end of the report there are a few pages of comments about an anomalous effect that was noticed once the system started to breakdown (above 19 Kv). A propulsive torque was generated which increased with the rate of breakdown frequency (pulses per second of audible arcing noise). The author of course suggests further research. I don't know if any was done. BTW, both of these reports use the spelling Biefield-Brown. Other people sometimes spell this Biefeld-Brown. Does anyone know for sure which is right? Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 13:34:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA24342 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA24325 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id QAA13738 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:34:38 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512162134.QAA13738@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:34:37 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Wolfgang Starchild" at Dec 15, 95 07:17:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, I'm very intrested in new, cheep, and reliable propulsion systems. I would like any info. on this too. Andrew Cantino ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 20:33:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA06082 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA06021 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id UAA13971; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:31:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:31:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Yet another o/u device Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A new Keelynet file on Weird Science page, under Construction Projects, under COLD FISSION. _______ Antenna==> \ / \ / ____________________________| | | | | | | _____________ | ___|___ | | | | | | | | Prime | | |_____| | | Source | | | | | |___________| | | | | | + plus | | | | ------------------*----------------| | |<==Radiant | ______|______ | | Energy | | | | | Tube | | Tube |__________ | | | | Ionizer | | |_____| | |___________| | | | | | | |_____| | | | | | __________________| | | | | | |__________|____ | | ___|___ 250KV pulse | ___ | | _____ | / | | | ___ |____|/|____| | _ | /| | | ACin \ | / | |------ | -----------/ | Variable | / \ / \ _____________________| Capacitor | __ / \ __| greater / / | (+) \ / (-) turns * * <== few turns coil | \ / coil ==>\ \_________________________________| | bridge rect. / |---------------------\ <=== Transformer ACin ______________________________________________________________________________ | File Name : COLDFISS.ASC | Online Date : 12/15/95 | | Contributed by : Bruce Perrault | Dir Category : ENERGY | | From : KeelyNet BBS | DataLine : (214) 324-3501 | | KeelyNet * PO BOX 870716 * Mesquite, Texas * USA * 75187 | | A FREE Alternative Sciences BBS sponsored by Vanguard Sciences | | InterNet email keelynet@ix.netcom.com (Jerry Decker) | | Files also available at Bill Beaty's http://www.eskimo.com/~billb | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| The following file is the most fascinating information that has come out in dozens of years with respect to some of Henry Morays' experiments with the production of electrical energy using cold cathode chemical reactions... .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 20:58:12 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA12283 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA12254 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:57:59 -0800 (PST) From: KGSurfer@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA08130 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:56:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:56:40 -0500 Message-ID: <951216235639_92419751@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Ion Engine Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wolfgang Starchild wrote: >I recently read a book by T.B. Pawlicki entitled "How to build a >flying saucer" and the book briefly mentioned an engine which uses ions >to create thrust or, an Ion Engine. I have done much research on this >topic and was wondering if anyone might have more information on the subject. The company Information Unlimited sells a kit for $100 called the Gravity Generator. It's basically a high voltage power supply and miniature mock space ship which is built with wire mesh. Once powered up, the thrust from the ions being emitted causes it to float. The plans for this are also available for $15. Information Unlimited P.O. Box 716 Amherst, NH 03031-0716 (603) 673-4730 K. Seuferer From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 05:19:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA29571 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 05:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from acad.suffolk.edu (acad.suffolk.edu [192.80.92.251]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA29542 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 05:17:55 -0800 (PST) From: lee02016@acad.suffolk.edu Received: by acad.suffolk.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46015; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:17:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:15:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Well, I have one nagging question about "push" gravity... > The 'push' would be coming from all the other matter in the universe. It's pretty evenly distributed, so that the net effect is an evenly distributed gravity field. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 10:19:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA24183 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24131 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tRNfg-001VvRC; Sun, 17 Dec 95 12:18 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 12:18:52 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "lee02016@acad.suffolk.edu" at Dec 17, 95 08:15:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Well, I have one nagging question about "push" gravity... > > The 'push' would be coming from all the other matter in the universe. > It's pretty evenly distributed, so that the net effect is an evenly > distributed gravity field. The hypothesized "push" results from a differential pressure, due to partial absorption of background radiation by matter. In effect, we are in the earth's "shadow", and are hence pushed in one direction, toward the earth, to a greater extent than the push away from the earth. There are more than a few theories that predict that gravity can be shielded. In fact some theories, modern and non-modern, suggest gravity itself results from a differential shielding effect, with the apparent force of gravity caused by a push or pressure due to shielding by bodies of matter from the background radiation of free space. Some of these theories do a fairly thorough job of providing a detailed model of how things work -- including just about everything. Some of the better written of these appear to be no more or less experimentally provable than General Relativity. One of their main drawbacks might be that they weren't created by Einstein. Still, some of them are written by notable and respected physicists such as Sakharov and Puthoff -- and there are a raft of others with similar proposals and ideas. There is also experimental evidence that gravity can be shielded. There are of course, the inventions of Henry Wallace, a scientist at General Electric, who received patents in the early 1970's for devices which demonstrate the capability of shielding and control of a gravitational field. Although, Wallace's work is possibly of earth shaking importance, any further efforts or independent verification and tests of his discoveries are mysteriously absent from the scientific record. Some folks, my self surely included, believe that our military black project community has clamped a lid on the whole thing. But let's leave the Wallace story for now, and look at a more recent experimental finding. If anyone would like more information about the Wallace inventions, please send an email request to: robert@wwa.com In a very recent vein. Here's some information about a startling experiment that was reported in early 1995, which found that a gravitational shielding effect can be attained by spinning a mass of superconductor material. There is also a separate article which provides a theoretical analysis of how this might be possible. =============================================================== From: R.Bursill@sheffield.ac.uk (R Bursill) Subject: Hi Tc SC and gravitational shielding Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 03:14:41 GMT Is anyone familiar with the experiments of Podkletnov et al on weak gravitational shielding from a Meissner levitating, rotating disk of high-Tc superconducting material? The paper is: E. Podkletnov and R. Nieminen, Physica C 203 (1992) 441. E. Podkletnov and A. D. Levit have another paper now, a Tampere University of Technology report, January 1995 (Finland), the experiment having being repeated (I assume no one believed it the first time?). In the 1st experiment a 5 g sample of silicon dioxide was found to loose around 0.05 % of its weight when placed at a distance of 15 mm from the SC disk. The SC disk had diameter 145 mm and thickness 6 mm. Under rotation of the disk the effect increased up to 0.3 %. In the 2nd experiment samples of different composition and weight (10-50 g) were placed at distances of 25 mm to 1.5 m from the disk. The mass loss went as high as around 2 %. I found out about this through a theoretical preprint by Giovanni Modanese, a Von Humboldt Fellow from the Max Plank institute. The preprint no. is MPI-PhT/95-44, May 1995. A colleage got it from hep-th@babbage.sissa.it, paper 9505094. Modanese thinks that it is something to do with the bose condensate from the SC interacting with the gravitational field. He uses some non-perturbative quantum theory on the Regge lattice to attempt to understand the effect. Must be a little bit like explaining cold fusion with the standard tools - couldn't be done. We all know what happened to cold fusion but at the time a professor from my department said in a public lecture that the product of the believability and the potential importance if true was of order 1. -- Robert Bursill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: Theoretical analysis of a reported weak gravitational shielding effect Author: G. Modanese (Max-Planck-Institut, Munich) Report-no: MPI-PhT/95-44 May 1995 Under special conditions (Meissner-effect levitation and rapid rotation) a disk of high-Tc superconducting material has recently been found to produce a weak shielding of the gravitational field. We show that this phenomenon has no explanation in the standard gravity theories, except possibly in the non-perturbative quantum theory on the Regge lattice. More data, and independent repetitions of the experiment are however necessary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The above article, in it's entirety, can be found in electronic format, at the Los Alamos National Lab Physics E-Print Archive: http://xxx.lanl.gov/ Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 11:37:38 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA15776 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 11:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA15745 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 11:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA17579; Sun, 17 Dec 95 14:33:24 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:33:23 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Ion Engine To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <951216235639_92419751@mail06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 1995 KGSurfer@aol.com wrote: > The company Information Unlimited sells a kit for $100 called the Gravity > Generator. It's basically a high voltage power supply and miniature mock > space ship which is built with wire mesh. Once powered up, the thrust from > the ions being emitted causes it to float. The plans for this are also > available for $15. > > Information Unlimited > P.O. Box 716 > Amherst, NH 03031-0716 > (603) 673-4730 > > K. Seuferer > That is just great. Thanks for the info! SKyward Aerospace Company (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 15:29:58 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA16681 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (root@clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA16661 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA17554; Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:29:38 EST Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:29:38 EST Message-Id: <9512172329.AA17554@clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs Cc: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) wrote: > >The hypothesized "push" results from a differential pressure, >due to partial absorption of background radiation by matter. >In effect, we are in the earth's "shadow", and are hence pushed >in one direction, toward the earth, to a greater extent than >the push away from the earth. > >There are more than a few theories that predict that gravity >can be shielded. In fact some theories, modern and non-modern, >suggest gravity itself results from a differential shielding effect, >with the apparent force of gravity caused by a push or pressure due >to shielding by bodies of matter from the background radiation of >free space. Some of these theories do a fairly thorough job of >providing a detailed model of how things work -- including just >about everything. Some of the better written of these appear to >be no more or less experimentally provable than General Relativity. >One of their main drawbacks might be that they weren't created by >Einstein. Still, some of them are written by notable and respected >physicists such as Sakharov and Puthoff -- and there are a raft of >others with similar proposals and ideas. I agree, that if this story is true, this experimental evidence fits right in line with what Puthoff and Sakharov have been saying. I wonder if Harold Puthoff knows about these French and American tests? However, more importantly, has anyone done some initial verification of the story? For example, the article from the Milwaukee Sentinel could be verified if you have access to their archives. Has anyone got a copy of the actual article? If this story is true, this experiment should be performed again, if for no other reason than having a current reference. It's simple enough that a group of high school students could do it, providing they found a willing mining company :-) This really is too important to ignore. (snip) > But let's leave >the Wallace story for now, and look at a more recent experimental >finding. If anyone would like more information about the Wallace >inventions, please send an email request to: robert@wwa.com I would like to see this information. I know a few people in the Mines and Minerals branch of the Department who would be interested too, and might be able to help in finding a suitable hole up here in Canada to conduct similar tests. regards Gary From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 15:45:23 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA20399 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA20364 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tRSlM-001VzMC; Sun, 17 Dec 95 17:45 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: Wallace Information To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 17:45:00 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9512172329.AA17554@clark.dgim.doc.ca> from "Gary Steckly" at Dec 17, 95 06:29:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Wallace Patents and Politics of Science Henry Wallace was an engineer at General Electric about 25 years ago, and developed some incredible inventions relating to the underlying physics of the gravitational field. Few people have heard of him or his work. US Patent #3626605 -- "Method and Apparatus for Generating a Secondary Gravitational Force Field" Awarded to Henry Wm Wallace of Ardmore PA Dec 14, 1971 US Patent #3626606 -- "Method and Apparatus for Generating a Dynamic Force Field" Awarded to Henry Wm Wallace of Ardmore PA Dec 14, 1971 US Patent #3823570 -- "Heat Pump" (based on technology similar to the above two inventions) Awarded to Henry Wm Wallace of Freeport NY July 16, 1973 Wallace discovered that a force field, similar or related to the gravitational field, results from the interaction of relatively moving masses. He built machines which demonstrated that this field could be generated by spinning masses of elemental material having an odd number of nucleons -- i.e. a nucleus having a multiple half-integral value of h-bar, the quantum of angular momentum. Wallace used bismuth or copper material for his rotating bodies and "kinnemassic" field concentrators. Aside from the immense benefits to humanity which could result from a better understanding of the physical nature of gravity, and other fundamental forces, Wallace's inventions could have enormous practical value in countering gravity or converting gravitational force fields into energy for doing useful work. So, why has no one heard of him? One might think that the discoverer of important knowledge such as this would be heralded as a great scientist and nominated for dynamite prizes. Could it be that his invention does not work? Anyone can get the patents. Study them -- Wallace -- General Electric -- detailed descriptions of operations -- measurements of effects -- drawings and models -- it is authentic. If you're handy you can even build it yourself. It does work. So what is going on? One explanation I've heard is that Wallace ran up against the politics of science, as dictated in the late 1960's by the power-block at Princeton, who were primarily interested in promoting the ideas of their main man, Einstein, and the gravitation-is-geometry paradigm. Maybe there is some truth to this story. Nowadays, there seems to be a piss-pot full of theoretical physicists working on abstract geometrical theories and other absurdly difficult mental masturbations, while no one seems to have made any effort to provide a theoretical explanation of the physics of a nuts-and-bolts invention which could have enormous practical value. Maybe we can blame it on the Princeton folks, but I'm more inclined to believe that our defense industry black project community has confiscated and suppressed knowledge of Wallace's discoveries. All done of course under the most honorable and sacred banner of national security. Well, it's been 25 years. We ought to be real secure by now. Isn't it way past time for some trickle down benefits to real people? Wallace's inventions offer the potential of improving the quality of life for everyone. Throughout history, political suppression and hoarding of scientific knowledge has inevitably resulted in a retardation of human advancement. It continues today. When will we ever learn? Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) More About the Wallace Patents -- Anti-Gravity Technology An article about the Wallace patents appeared in the British magazine "New Scientist" in February 1980. This was written nearly ten years after Wallace was awarded his patents. Here's a paragraph from the article. "Although the Wallace patents were initially ignored as cranky, observers believe that his invention is now under serious but secret investigation by the military authorities in the US. The military may now regret that the patents have already been granted and so are available for anyone to read." I know -- it's a tease. And the rest of the article is the same way. It provides barely enough information to jab your psyche a little, and not nearly enough to get you off your comfortable ass. And who knows who the anonymous party of "observers" are, who believe that a secret investigation is underway by the military -- or whether these observers even exist at all. None the less, the New Scientist has a fairly well established track record for accurate identification of new science trends and issues. And, while the editors of this British journal may be prone to enjoyment of gossip and innuendo, it generally turns out be grounded in truth. One thing they got right for sure: The patents are available for anyone to read. Get them. Study them. No doubt, Wallace got many things wrong about the physical theory of his invention. But, he did discover something very important. It does work. Stay tuned. Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) Michael Edelman (mje@pookie.pass.wayne.edu) writes about the Wallace patents on antigravity technology: : Oh yes indeed. I built one, turned it on, and the damn thing floated : away....haven't been able to get the next one to work... That's remarkable Michael. But this is no joke. Although Wallace wasn't able to do anything immediately dramatic, he did build a device that demonstrated a fundamentally new physical effect -- and he measured it and demonstrated it conclusively in multiple ways. It has long been postulated that a "kinetic" gravitational force exists, in conjunction with the well know static gravitational force. For many years scientists and experimenters have theorized that a "kinetic" gravitational force might exist between relatively moving masses -- analogous to the magnetic force that exists between relatively moving charges. A force between relatively moving masses, is predicted by some solutions of GR, and has also been predicted by theorists through numerous analogies between the electromagnetic and gravitational fields. (both have r-squared law, force required to accelerate mass and force required to accelerate charge, kinetic energy proportional to MV^2 and magnetic energy proportional to QV^2, etc). People have tried to measure this force for years, without success. The "kinemassic" force is very small and difficult to find. What Wallace did was invent a way to demonstrate it, measure it, and most importantly put it to use. Wallace discovered how to concentrate the flux of the "kinenmassic" field, by using material having unpaired angular momentum in the nucleus -- analogous to how magnetic flux is more easily generated and concentrated by ferromagnetic material, which has unpaired electron (charge) spin. Wallace built a machine which causes the axis of spin of the unpaired angular momemtum in the nucleus to align itself with the macroscopic spin of the material -- resulting in a much stronger, and measurable kinemassic field. He also clearly documented the existence of the field with multiple methods of measurement. It's quite a piece of work. You can get the patents. But you won't find much else anywhere about it, because the military has it tucked away. One of the things you can do with it is use a time varying "kinemassic" field to control/generate a gravitational field, and to shield a static gravitational field -- analogous to a use of a time varying magnetic field to generate or control an electric field. One of the emobidments of Wallace's invention uses this effect to create a zero gravity chamber -- possibly similar to the zero gravity chamber that NASA is "rumored" to operate in the Houston area. Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) Intrinsic and Extrinsic Angular Momentum There is an important relationship between intrinsic and extrinsic angular momemtum, microscopic and macroscopic angular momentum, and quantum and classical level angular momentum. A body which is spinning within a larger macroscopic body which is also spinning will tend to align the axis of its angular momentum with the spin axis of the larger body. For example, a gyroscope located on the earth, unless it is in a frictionless gimbal, with always try to precess due to the rotation of the earth into alignment with the earth's polar axis, at which point it will no longer precess due to earth rotation. Another example. A cylinder of magnetic material spinning around its longitudinal axis will develop a magnetic field proportional to is angular velocity (Barnett Effect), because the angular momemtum of the electrons in the material will attempt to precess and come into alignment with the macroscopic axis of the spinning cylinder, which also brings into alignment the magnetic moment of the electrons, some of which have unpaired spins (ferromagnetic), resulting in generation of a macroscopic magnetic field. Similarly, it is know that a static magnetic field itself contains angular momentum -- and spinning the source of the static field, whether a magnet or DC current loop, will result in a corresponding increase or decrease in the field strength. Another example is the inventions of Henry Wallace, which were discovered and patented about 25 years ago, when he worked at General Electric. Wallace found that an unusual thing happens when you spin elemental material which has a nucleus containing an odd number of nucleons, i.e. having an "un-paired" value of angular momentum, resulting in a nucleus with a multiple integer of a one- half value of the quantum h-bar. The spin of the nucleus will begin to line up with the macroscopic spin axis, and will create a force field related to gravity -- which Wallace called the "kinemassic" field. If you haven't heard of Wallace or his unusual discovery, it might be because information about it has been classified by the military. Maybe I've missed it, but I've looked seriously, and there seems to be no information in undergraduate or graduate level physics reference books which mentions the relationship between macroscopic and microscopic angular momentum -- much less provides any analysis or explanation linking quantum angular momentum to macroscopic angular momentum. Why not? How does quantum angular momentum become organized from a microscopic to a macroscopic level? Has anyone ever published any work about this? I can't find any. Robert Stirniman ============================================================= Here's an interesting reply I received to the above questions. Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 From: James Youlton To: Robert Stirniman Re: Angular Momentum and the Barnett Effect On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, Robert Stirniman wrote: > Maybe I've missed it, but I've looked seriously, and there seems > to be no information in undergraduate or graduate level physics > reference books which mentions the relationship between > macroscopic and microscopic angular momentum -- much less > provides any analysis or explanation linking quantum angular > momentum to macroscopic angular momentum. You're catching on. The subject of compound angular momentum, or internal and external angular momentum, or intrinsic and extrinsic angular momentum has been a repressed subject for about 2 and half decades. Add to that list, spherical pendulums, Coriolis effect, except as applied to balistics and meteorology as used by the US military, and Shafer's pendulum, that neat little device used as the artifical horizon of aircraft. > How does quantum angular momentum become organized from a > microscopic to a macroscopic level? Has anyone ever published > any work about this? I can't find any. There isn't any that I know of, though back in the late fifties, there was a fellow named Edward Condon at the University of Colorado who was fairly proficient on the subject. So much so that he wrote the rotational dynamics section, called noninertial dynamics at the time, of the reference "The Handbook of Physics" which he also co-edited (Chapter 5). I don't recall offhand who the publisher was (Harcourt/Brace?), though it was endorsed by the American Institute of Physics. Later, when Mr Condon was the head of the USAF project 'Blue Book', he labored to suppress his own work when the directive was handed down from the Navy's Turtle Island project. James Youlton ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: Edward Condon was not involved with project Blue Book, but was involved in a different study of UFOs for the USAF which resulted in termination of the Blue Book project. Condon's first known involvement with study of UFOs was in 1943, when he was engaged by the military to assess the FooFighter phenomena. After the nationwide wave of UFO sightings in 1966, Condon was appointed head of a new committee to study the problem, The Committee for Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects. Condon proceeded immediately to ridicule and debunk the idea of UFOs, even before the committee had it's first meeting to begin it's "scientific" investigation. There are many files of information now circulating which document Edward Condon's sad turn from the scientific pursuit of truth to the dark side of politics. But, that's another story. Here's an excerpt about the Condon committee which comes from the research report about UFOs prepared by Major Brummet and Captain Zuick in May 1974 for the USAF Air Command and Staff College. By September 1947, the United States Air Force (USAF) had become sufficiently interested in the growing number of UFO reports by reputable, respected citizens to estab- lish "Project Sign", later named "Project Grudge", and finally renamed "Project Blue Book", the Air Force program for investigation of UFOs. Project Blue Book remained in effect for over twenty-two years and investigated re- ports of 12,618 sightings. Unexplained sightings ranged between the official Project Blue Book report of 6 per cent to UFOlogist estimates of 54 per cent. Despite the wide variance in unexplained sightings, Secretary of the Air Force, Dr. Robert Seamans, announced the termination of Project Blue Book on December 17, 1969. The decision to discontinue UFO investigations was based on an eval- uation of a report prepared by the University of Colorado entitled, "Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Ob- jects," more commonly referred to as the "Condon Report"; a review of the Condon Report by the National Academy of Sciences; past UFO studies; and two decades of Air Force experience investigating UFO reports. (6:141)" .... Project Blue Book was terminated on December 17, 1969, by Secretary of the Air Force, Robert C. Seamans, Jr. The decision to discontinue UFO investigations was based on a report prepared by the University of Colorado (Condon Report), a review of that report by the National Academy of Sciences, past UFO studies, and Air Force experience in investigating UFO reports.(21:297) Sec- retary Robert Seamans Jr., stated that the program "no longer can be justified either on the ground of national security or in the interest of science.(15:76) Many experts disagree with the conclusion of the 1500 page, $539,000 independent Condon Study that took over two years to complete. The Condon Study concluded that : Nothing has come from the study of UFOs in the past 21 years that has added to scientific knowledge. Careful consideration of the record as it is available to us leads us to conclude that further extensive study of UFOs probably cannot be justified in the expectation that sci- ence will be advanced thereby.(1:2) One of the major critics of the Condon Study was an amateur UFO organization, The National Investigators Committee for Aerial Phenomena (NICAP). As indicated by the Condon Report , NICAP in the past has spent much effort in attacking Air Force UFO policies and attempting to influence Congress. NICAP warned members of the Colorado Project to beware less the Condon Project turn out to have been "hired to whitewash the Air Force." (End of excerpt from USAF research report) ================================================================= Well there you have it. Has the military really been engaged in suppression of fundamental new science knowledge for almost 50 years now, or is it just another one of those wild and crazy conspiracy rumors? Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) Andrew Parle (parlea@stanilite.com.au) writes regarding the Wallace inventions: >However, if that is not the case, then perhaps you should consider >the possibility that it does not work. This would then be sufficient >explanation for no-one ever hearing of Wallace or his inventions. Yes, what you say would seem to be a most rational explanation, maybe even the most rational explanation. That is -- the reason no one has ever heard of Wallace, is simply because his inventions don't work. And surely an invention like this discovered by a scientist at a renowned company such as General Electric, which was awarded two patents, and has enormous possible practical value and unestimable consequences in physical theory and experiment (we are talking about gravity control) -- would have been tested and evaluated by at least one or more independent research organizations. Guess what -- either it was never tested, or it was tested and the results were classified. There is NO published information about evaluation of the performance or non- performance of Wallace's invention. So what looks more rational -- was it never even tested, or did we just never get to see the results. And why have we never seen the results? What is more likely -- because it didn't work, or because it did? >So unless you can produce a working model, I guess the obvious >answer is: just another inventor who thought he had made a >discovery but in fact had made a mistake. Wallace has already produced a working device, and you refuse to even look at. Why would I expect that you would bother to look at one that I might produce? If we were able to look at any kind of test results for Wallace's device. That would be helpful. But the thing is -- there aren't any tests to look at, at least not in the public domain. Most peculiar. Anyhow, if you prefer to entirely discard the idea that the invention might actually work, with no serious consideration whatsoever to the possibility that it's been suppressed. OK by me. It's refreshing to see someone these days with so much faith in our defense and national security agencies. And hey, don't worry about them UFOs either. You know, that's all a bunch of nonsense too, right? For anyone interested in new-physics and gravity control, I suggest you start by studying the patents. Wallace's invention does work. Stay tuned. More forthcoming. Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) Where to Get Copies of Wallace Patents Patents awarded to Henry Wm Wallace for "anti-gravity" technology: US Patent #3626605 -- "Method and Apparauts for Generating a Secondary Gravitational Force Field" Awarded to Henry Wm Wallace of Ardmore PA Dec 14, 1971 US Patent #3626606 -- "Method and Apparatus for Generating a Dynamic Force Field" Awarded to Henry Wm Wallace of Ardmore PA Dec 14, 1971 US Patent #3823570 -- "Heat Pump" (based on technology similar to the above two inventions) Awarded to Henry Wm Wallace of Freeport NY July 16, 1973 The original full text description and all drawings from every US patent ever issued, is available on microfiche at patent depository libraries throughout the country. It cost about 10 cents per page to make paper copies. You have to go there. If you don't take the kids, you might enjoy it. Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) ================================================================= PATENT AND TRADEMARK DEPOSITORY LIBRARIES ______________________________________________________________ Patent and Trademark Depository Library Program United States Patent and Trademark Office Crystal Plaza 3, Room 2C04 Washington, D.C. 20231 Phone: 703-308-3924. _________________________________________________________________ Reference Collection of U.S. Patents Available for Public Use in Patent Depository Libraries The following libraries, designated as Patent and Trademark Depository Libraries (PTDLs) receive current issues of U.S. Patents and maintain collections of earlier-issued patents as well as trademarks published for opposition. The scope of these collections varies from library to library, ranging from patents of only recent years to all or most of the patents issued since 1790 and trademarks published since 1872. These patent and trademark collections, which are organized in number sequence, are available for use by the public free of charge. Each of the PTDLs, in addition, offers supplemental reference publications of the U.S. Patent Classification System, including the Manual of Classification, Index to the U.S. Patent Classification and Classification Definitions, and provides technical staff assistance in using such publications in gaining effective access to information contained in patents and trademarks. CASSIS (Classification and Search Support Information System) and other CD-ROM products for searching patent and trademark information are available at all PTDLs. Facilities for making paper copies of patents and trademarks from either microfilm or paper collections are generally provided for a fee. Since there are variations in the scope of patent collections among the PTDLs and in their hours of service to the public, anyone contemplating use of the patents at a particular library is urged to contact that library, in advance, about its collection and hours in order to avert possible inconvenience. State Name of Library Telephone Alabama Auburn: Auburn University Libraries (205) 844-1747 Birmingham: Birmingham Public Library (205) 226-3680 Alaska Anchorage: Z.J. 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Hill Library, North Carolina State University (919) 515-3280 North Dakota Grand Forks: Chester Fritz Library, University of North Dakota (701) 777-4888 Ohio Cincinnati: Cincinnati and Hamilton County, Public Library of (513) 369-6936 Cleveland: Cleveland Public Library (216) 623-2870 Columbus: Ohio State University Libraries (614) 292-6175 Toledo: Toledo/Lucas County Public Library (419) 259-5212 Oklahoma Stillwater: Oklahoma State University Library (405) 744-7086 Oregon Salem: Oregon State Library (503) 378-4239 Pennsylvania Philadelphia: The Free Library of (215) 686-5331 Pittsburgh: Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh (412) 622-3138 University Park: Pattee Library, Pennsylvania State University (814) 865-4861 Puerto Rico Puerto Rico Mayaguez: General Library University of Puerto Rico Not Yet Operational Rhode Island Providence: Providence Public Library (401) 455-8027 South Carolina Clemson: Clemson University Libraries Not yet operational South Dakota Rapid City : Devereaux Library, South Dakota School of Mines and Technology (605) 394-6822 Tennessee Memphis: Memphis and Shelby County Public Library and Information Center (901) 725-8877 Nashville: Stevenson Science Library, Vanderbilt University (615) 322-2775 Texas Austin: McKinney Engineering Library, University of Texas at Austin (512) 495-4500 College Station: Sterling C. Evans Library, Texas A&M University (409) 845-2551 Dallas: Dallas Public Library (214) 670-1468 Houston: The Fondren Library, Rice University (713) 527-8101 X 2587 Utah Salt Lake City: Marriott Library, University of Utah (801) 581-8394 Virginia Richmond: James Branch Cabell Library, Virginia Commonwealth University Library (804) 367-1104 Washington Seattle: Engineering Library, University of Washington (206) 543-0740 West Virginia Morgantown: Evansdale Library, West Virginia University (304) 293-4510 Wisconsin Madison: Kurt F. Wendt Engineering Library, University of Wisconsin-Madison (608) 262-6845 Milwaukee: Milwaukee Public Library (414) 278-3247 Wyoming Wyoming Casper: Natrona County Public Library (307) 237-4935 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 14:51:12 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA07300 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA07270 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from t25.dialup.peg.apc.org (t25.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.153]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id JAA05411 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:50:26 +1000 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:50:26 +1000 Message-Id: <199512172350.JAA05411@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Jim Francis wrote: > >> Robert Jahn from Princeton University (Engineering Lab) wrote a manual about >> electronic space propulsion. Have forgotten the name of it but you might >> already be aware of it. Supposed to be quite an authorative textbook. > >Hmmm, I may have already gotten that one was it by chance "Industrial >Atomic Energy"? > >Thanks for the help > >Wolf Just dug out that reference Wolf ........The book is PHYSICS OF ELECTRIC PROPULSION... by Robert C. Jahn.....a profesor of Aerospace Sciense at Princeton University and a former consultant for NASA where his main interest was space propulsion. He is currently involved with the PEAR lab at the Engineering Dept. of Princeton. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 12:01:49 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA29471 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA29023 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:58:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512181958.LAA29023@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:58:11 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:08 AM 12/18/95 EST, you wrote: >"In the Philadelphia Experiment, I believe that there were >three or four conical shaped Tesla Coils on board the ship, all >peaking slightly out of phase, so it would have had an effect >something like a coin having been spun on its edge on a table top, >as it rocks part way toward its rest condition, a spiraling >effect, possibly along the lines of what is being discussed here." > >Interesting, where did you find the reference to conical Tesla coils being >used? > >Conical coils, or "beehive" coils were a subject if interest to Tesla, as >they have Verry broad resonance, yet high Q factor. Conical and flatr >spiral coils often have interesting sets of resonances. > [snip] > >Who can say how it was really implemented, if it indeed really happened. > > The reference was from Al Bielek (maybe not the most believable source) on the Art Bell show about a year ago. The tapes (two shows maybe) could be obtained by calling the Chancellor Broadcasting Sytem that produces Art's shows, at : 1-503-664-8829 [in Central Point, OR] Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA Pet Peave O' The Day: **Ladies, you've made modern courtship like a job application. Try meeting a guy half way, you'll both have a lot more fun.** From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 19:58:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA23120 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA23074 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from t1.dialup.peg.apc.org (t1.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.129]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id OAA03483 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:57:55 +1000 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:57:55 +1000 Message-Id: <199512180457.OAA03483@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Jim Francis wrote: > >> Robert Jahn from Princeton University (Engineering Lab) wrote a manual about >> electronic space propulsion. Have forgotten the name of it but you might >> already be aware of it. Supposed to be quite an authorative textbook. > >Hmmm, I may have already gotten that one was it by chance "Industrial >Atomic Energy"? > >Thanks for the help > >Wolf Just dug out that reference Wolf ........The book is PHYSICS OF ELECTRIC PROPULSION... by Robert C. Jahn.....a profesor of Aerospace Sciense at Princeton University and a former consultant for NASA where his main interest was space propulsion. He is currently involved with the PEAR lab at the Engineering Dept. of Princeton. Jim (My SP went down on Sun morn as I was sending this message - don't know whether it actaully went or not.) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 06:12:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA16073 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 06:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA16059 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 06:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id IAA01695 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:58:22 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA819305569 Mon, 18 Dec 95 08:52:49 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 08:52:49 From: "reim" Encoding: 1841 Text Message-Id: <9511188193.AA819305569@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Wolf, This is bob reim. I have also been doing research on T.T. Brown. I have built a 90 KV pulse power supply and I just pick up a 125 KV x-ray power supply. For quite a while now I have been, without results, trying to make some saucer shaped caps out of barium titinate power. This power is difficult to have it keep its shape during the drying process before firing. I might have to make a mold in order to keep it together. What kind of research have you done in ion propulsion and at what potentials. There are several people in this group that is doing work in this field. bob reim reim@advantor.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: fnrg: Ion Engine Author: magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list at ~Internet Date: 12/15/95 7:55 PM Hello Everyone. I am new to this group. Allow me to introduce myself; My name is Wolfgang Starchild, I am an aeronautical scientist interested in non-conventional methods of propulsion [i.e. Biefield-Brown, T.T. Brown, Searle] I decided to join this group in hopes of expanding my knowledge and lending a hand where possible. I recently read a book by T.B. Pawlicki entitled "How to build a flying saucer" and the book briefly mentioned an engine which uses ions to create thrust or, an Ion Engine. I have done much research on this topic and was wondering if anyone might have more information on the subject. Any information would be greatly appreiceated! Thanks In Advance Wolf Skyward Aerospace Company Box 29062 - 125 Carlton Street St. Catharines, ON L2R-7P9 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 06:21:40 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA18595 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 06:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA18589 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 06:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA20612; Mon, 18 Dec 95 09:08:51 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Mon, 18 Dec 95 9:20:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 9:08:34 EST Message-Id: <4F06+WLLpkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "In the Philadelphia Experiment, I believe that there were three or four conical shaped Tesla Coils on board the ship, all peaking slightly out of phase, so it would have had an effect something like a coin having been spun on its edge on a table top, as it rocks part way toward its rest condition, a spiraling effect, possibly along the lines of what is being discussed here." Interesting, where did you find the reference to conical Tesla coils being used? Conical coils, or "beehive" coils were a subject if interest to Tesla, as they have Verry broad resonance, yet high Q factor. Conical and flatr spiral coils often have interesting sets of resonances. An array of such coils would not produce a rotating constant phase plane wave as has been discussed however, the field would be highly non-uniform, and could therefore might cause differential acceleration of objects within the field. This would be bad, and might describe some of the reported effects of the experiment. It was my understanding that the ships degaussing system (coil sets and homopolar high current generators) were modified to generate the rotating field with additional equipment. The degaussing coils themselves were modified in some way to allow the use of special coil drive electronics. Who can say how it was really implemented, if it indeed really happened. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 09:00:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA00264 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00235 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA19177; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:58:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:58:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs In-Reply-To: <9512172329.AA17554@clark.dgim.doc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) wrote: > > > > >The hypothesized "push" results from a differential pressure, > >due to partial absorption of background radiation by matter. > >In effect, we are in the earth's "shadow", and are hence pushed > >in one direction, toward the earth, to a greater extent than > >the push away from the earth. So a gravity sheild might act like a massive object. Anything above the shield would be pushed downwards by the ZPE flux coming from above, and things below the shield would become lighter. If gravity is caused by ZPE, then black holes might not act as General Relativity predicts. Also, anyone who succeeds in generating a perfect gravity shield will also have created an artificial black-hole-type mass. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 09:06:59 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA02217 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02190 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA19773; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:05:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:05:18 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: from Keelynet Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Message 1713 DATE/TIME: 12/17/95 08:36 From=20 : DAVE CAHOON To : ALL Subject: FlexAble Folder : A, "Public Mail" // // Electrical power conserver relay controler. v1.0 12-95 MILKZPE1.C // // Circuit to demonstrate OVER UNITY on L1 as compared with L2. // // =DA=C4=C4=C4L1=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C2=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C2=C4=C4RS4=C4=C4=C4L2= =C4=C4=BF RS1-4 Relay Contact // =B3 =B3 =B3 =B3 C1-3 4700uf Cap 35v // =B3 =B3 =B3 =B3 L1-2 12v Light bulb // =B3 C2 =B3 =B3 // =B3 =B3 =B3 =C0=C4=C4=C4=C4 + // =B3 =DA=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=B4 =B3 // =B3 =B3 =B3 =B3 // C1 RS1 RS2 RS3 24 volt // =B3 =B3 =B3 =B3 1 amp // =B3 =B3 =C3=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=D9 // =B3 =B3 =B3 // =B3 =B3 C3 =DA=C4=C4=C4=C4 - // =B3 =B3 =B3 =B3 // =B3 =B3 =B3 =B3 RadioShack Cat# // =C0=C4=C4=C4=C4=C1=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C1=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4= =C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=D9 RS1-4 275-232 // C1-3 272-1022 // L1-2 272-1154 // // Relay coils are energized by computer power, // so this low voltage Circuit shows the effect better. // At startup, run program first then connect 24v power. // Both lights should glow the same at First, then L1 // will OUtshine L2 after an inital chargeup interval. // // The same energy is passed through L1 more then once. // #include // C program to controle relays. #include #include // #define RELAY_PORT 0x322 // O port on my a/d card. // #define S1 0x10 #define S2 0x20 #define S3 0x40 #define S4 0x80 // void relay(int sw) { outportb(RELAY_PORT, sw^0xF0); } void main(void) { int charge_time =3D 2; // milliseconds clrscr(); printf("Power Conserver Relay Controler\n"); printf("\n"); printf("Charge Time %d ms.\n",charge_time); do { relay(S1+S3); // C1 charge C2-C3 through load delay(charge_time); relay(S2); // C2-C3 charge back to C1 through load delay(charge_time); relay(S4); // top off charge on C1 through load delay(charge_time); // }while(!kbhit()); if (!getch()) getch(); relay(0); // turn off all relays and exit } =20 ---------------------------------------- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 09:07:52 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA02492 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02470 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA19828; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:06:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:06:19 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Apollo story Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 09 Nov 95 14:12:00 PST From: Mike J. Hatfield To: GenerallyWeird Subject: Bet he was over the moon... Don't know the originator - but talk about gettin' lucky...!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When Apollo Mission Astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon, he not only gave his famous "One Small Step for Man, One Giant Leap for Mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks - usual com traffic between him, the other astronauts and Mission Control. Before he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark "Good luck, Mr. Gorsky." Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning some rival Soviet Cosmonaut; however, upon checking, there was no Gorsky in either the Russian nor American space programs. Over the years, many people have questioned him as to what the "Good luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, FL, while answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26 year old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the question. When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his brother in the backyard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr and Mrs. Gorksy. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs. Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!" Enjoy! Mike mjh@langley.softwright.co.uk From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 09:08:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA02744 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02657 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA19889; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:06:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:06:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Bufo Ad Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's something appropriate as an xmas gift. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 04:21:50 GMT From: Bufo Calvin To: billb@eskimo.com Subject: Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Bufo Calvin, P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 INTERNET: B.CALVIN@GENIE.GEIS.COM or BUFO.CALVIN@AWAITER.COM (510) 432-8102 (voice, fax, and recorded messages) TAP (THE ADDRESS PROJECT) NEARU (NATIONAL EVENTS BY AREA REGISTRY OF THE UNEXPLAINED) BUFO'S WEIRD WORLD ALL RIGHTS RESERVED November 10, 1995 HAPPY HOW-WEIRD-DAYS! Yeah, I know, a lot of you don't even want to think about gift-giving until after Thanksgiving, but I know some of you are probably already done. I mean, think about it, if you're a turkey, you don't have that much time left to get to the mall! So first, the shameless self-promotion: are you looking for the perfect gift for your cyber-challenged friends? Why not get them a subscription to the =paper= (you remember paper, right?) version of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD? It's basically the same stuff you get over the Internet, with a little extra material. Five issues (probably about a year's worth, although it might be a bit more) is only $20.00. I'll be honest with you, it costs me so much money to do the paper one that I've had to let several subscriptions lapse, and that means I don't have as many sources to bring =you= weird stuff as I used to have. So be selfish! Buy your friend (or your library) Bufo's WEIRD WORLD! I also haven't mentioned TAP or NEARU in here for awhile. TAP is a listing of contact info (addresses, phone numbers, e-mails, websites) for public people or groups who have been or are involved with this stuff. This monster keeps growing as I add new info. It's available on paper or in ASCII on disc (although I'd have to get more printed if I actually sold one ;} ). Either version is $20.00. NEARU is a research service (I keep getting encouraged to turn it into a book, and may some day). Could be a good cheap present, for a stocking stuffer or office exchange. For $5.00, I'll put together a list of weird published happenings for any county in the U.S. (sorry, readers from other countries...I'm concentrating on the States). If I'm stumped, you get your five dollars back, but that's never happened so far. I typically come up with a page or more. Turn-around time on that can run as long as two weeks. FOR ANY OF THE ABOVE, MAKE CHECKS PAYABLE TO BUFO'S WEIRD WORLD. As to weird gifts put out by other people, the choices are so vast I don't quite know how to limit it. I'm tempted to just stay with cybersources, but then I'd have to leave out two of my favorites...so I won't. ARCTURUS BOOKS INC.: this is a =great= monthly catalogue of books, magazines, and videos, focussing on UFOs, but covering monsters, etc. They'll send you one current catalogue and one backlist just for asking. It's known not only for its amazing depth, but for the acerbic (rotten, mean and nasty) reviews. They still aren't on-line, but you can snail mail them at 1443 S.E. Port St. Lucie Blvd, Port St. Lucie, FL 34952. Phone is 407-398-0796, fax 407-337-1701. STRANGE BOOKS (and STRANGE MAGAZINE) is sort of the classy alternative to ARCTURUS. It also carries a variety of anomalistics books, but tries to be selective. It can be reached on-line at STRANGE@CAIS.COM. I should mention that I am a Contributing Editor for the mag, but I get no benefit from you buying books there. EDWARD R. HAMILTON, BOOKSELLER: is a general interest catalogue which always has some real anomalistics finds. I've always been impressed by the service, and the prices are quite good (the books are generally what is called remainders, although some are new). It can have some real rarities, as well as well-known ones. The address is simply: EDWARD R. HAMILTON, Bookseller, Falls Village, CT 06031-5000. GREENLEAF PUBLICATIONS: A specialty publisher and distributor. They have had a version of the alien autopsy video, and it is run by authors Marc Davenport and Leah Haley. It can be reached on-line at LEAHMARC@IX.NETCOM.COM. I believe you can get a catalogue for free. WFMU CATALOG OF CURIOSITIES: Not really anomalistics, but they sent me a free catalogue, and it had some cool stuff. For instance, you can get an import CD version of HIGHLY ILLOGICAL, the rare '60s album by Leonard Nimoy. Contact them at INFO@WFMU.ORG (send a blank message: make the subject "catalog") Here are a few other publishers and such that you can reach on-line. They offer subscriptions to their own publications, and I can recommend them all: THE EXCLUDED MIDDLE (a magazine dedicated to the non-extraterrestrial form of ufology, and known for great interviews): EXCLMID@AOL.COM; THE ANOMALIST (a classy periodical, each one the equivalent of a good book, but by an eclectic group of authors): 74750.2500@COMPUSERVE.COM; OPUS (a non-profit corporation that is neutral about the paranormal...does a quarterly newsletter ((I'm on the editorial staff))): OPUS@AWAITER.COM; EXOTIC ZOOLOGY (a serious look at new species): MATTWRITER@AOL.COM; FORTEAN TIMES (considered definitely one of the best, this mag is from England): BOBR@FORTEANA.WIN-UK.NET; There are some others I would definitely recommend (THE INFO JOURNAL and ELSEWHEN) but I need them to let me know it is okay to give their electronic addresses. ####PLEASE, IF YOU CONTACT ANY OF THESE FOLKS, TELL THEM BUFO SENT YOU!!!### Thank you. This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 09:19:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA06397 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA06321 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA20752; Mon, 18 Dec 95 12:13:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:13:51 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Cc: freenet!magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list In-Reply-To: <9511188193.AA819305569@irout.advantor.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, reim wrote: > > Hi Wolf, This is bob reim. I have also been doing research on T.T. > Brown. I have built a 90 KV pulse power supply and I just pick up a > 125 KV x-ray power supply. For quite a while now I have been, without > results, trying to make some saucer shaped caps out of barium titinate > power. This power is difficult to have it keep its shape during the > drying process before firing. I might have to make a mold in order to > keep it together. What kind of research have you done in ion > propulsion and at what potentials. There are several people in this > group that is doing work in this field. > > bob reim reim@advantor.com Season's Greetins Bob! I've done mostly theoretical work with ionic propulsion for vaious applications. Most of the work deals with mass flow statistics. However, with this new loop, it should possibly progress into the prototype stage in the near future. If you'd like to know more, leave me a private E-mail... Wolf Skyward Aerospace Box 29062 - 125 Carlton Street St. Catharines, ON L2R-7P9 Canada From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 18:44:24 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA20212 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:58:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from transfer.stratus.com (transfer.stratus.com [134.111.1.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA20108 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:58:38 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie_Hodgson@vos.stratus.com Received: from vos.stratus.com (vos.stratus.com [134.111.80.206]) by transfer.stratus.com (8.7.1/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA12097 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:58:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512182058.PAA12097@transfer.stratus.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 15:50 EST To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: RE: fnrg: Hubbard Article Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This sound very much like Sweet's Device. Also, if it is patented, why aren't the plans available?? You can't get a patent if you don'r provide enough info for someone to build it. Charlie Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 0:23 EST From: smtp_mail_admin@vos.stratus.com To: Charlie_Hodgson@vos.stratus.com Subject: fnrg: Hubbard Article To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins THE POST-INTELLIGENCER Seattle, Washington, Thursday, July 29, 1920 ************************************************ Hubbard Coil Runs Boat On Portage Bay Ten Knots An Hour; Auto Test Next _______ Seattle Boy Inventor Makes Good His Claims of Last December When He Announced Discovery to P.I. _____________________________________ HUBBARD'S CLAIMS If young Hubbard's claims are correct regarding the newest coil he has perfected, and which propelled a boat yesterday, these are a few of the things the coil would do without cost other than the initial outlay of $90: Drive a large touring car at normal speed. Illuminate a moderate-sized office building. Furnish current for lighting, cooking, and heating for a large residence Heat seven two room apartments. ___________________ Alfred M. Hubbard, Seattle boy inventor of a device which for want of a better name he terms an atmospheric power generator, yesterday made good his prediction that he would drive a motorboat with the apparatus as a source of power. An eighteen foot boat, propelled by a thirty-five-horse power electric motor, which obtained its current from the Hubbard coil, was driven about Portage Bay on Lake Union. Among those who witnessed the demonstration was a well-known local capitalist, the inventor's father,William H. Hubbard, and a Post Intelligencer reporter. The boat traveled at a speed of between eight and ten knots--silently, except for the whirring of a chain belt which connected the motor with the propeller shaft. When the chain belt was removed, the motor ran free at a speed estimated at 3,500 revolutions [the rest of this line is unreadable R.L.R.] No Hidden Wires Found. To guard against the possibility of ordinary storage batteries concealed about the boat as a power source, instead of the Hubbard coil, both electric motor and coil were lifted free from their blocks, but no hidden wiring was revealed. The coil used as a power unit was eleven inches in diameter and fourteen inches in length. According to Hubbard, tests of the coil show a current of 280 amperes and 125 volts, which, he pointed out was equivalent to approximately forty-five horse power, or sufficient to drive an automobile. The current is pulsating. The electric motor was approximately twelve inches in diameter eighteen inches in length. It had been reconstructed in order to be used with the Hubbard coil. After his ride in the strange powered craft the capitalist declared that he was frankly puzzled, but that he desired an electrical engineer in his employ to make an examination of the coil before he felt free to discuss it. Since last December, when the Post-Intelligencer first made public the claims of the youthful inventor, he has been more or less in retirement, perfecting his coil. He took up his residence in Everett where, with the assistance of Everett backers he worked on his device. A local capitalist agreed to witness a demonstration of the coil to determine its practicability as a power source. The motorboat was fitted with blocks on which to rest the motor and the propeller shaft geared for a chained belt. When the motor was first tried out after its installation in the boat it ran backwards. So involved are the connections between the motor and the coil that fully a half-hour's experimentation was necessary before the motor shaft revolved in the right direction. That the capitalist was frankly skeptical of the device was plain when he,with two other passengers, boarded the boat at the Seattle Yacht Club wharf. All the machinery that was visible was the coil and the motor, the latter plainly geared to the propeller shaft. The boat shoved off, Hubbard threw the switch, and instantly the boat began to pick up speed. It circled about the bay and returned to the wharf, with never a slackening of speed. The wires connecting coil and motor had begun to heat under the excessive current, and, fearing that some part of the coil might give way under the extra heavy strain put on it, Hubbard declined to permit the motor to be run continuously for any length of time. It was tried out later several times, after brief periods which allowed the wires to cool, and its power apparently showed no diminution. No instruments were used to test its wattage. The capitalist admitted that the demonstration intrigued his interest, but that he would wait for his expert's opinion before discussing it. Following the demonstration, the young inventor declared that within a few days he expected to drive an automobile with the coil as a power unit. The Coil used yesterday had been built especially for the demonstration, and is nearly twice the size of the coil Hubbard used in his demonstration last winter. The large coil cost approximately $90 to construct. The inventor says that so far as he has been able to learn its life as a power unit is indefinite. He declared that a coil large enough to drive an airplane would be no more than three times the size of the coil used yesterday, and that a machine thus equipped could fly around the world without stopping, so far as the power supply is concerned. While the device has been patented, the claims for it are so broad that Hubbard says he does not feel safe in making public his secret. In general, he says, it is made up of a group of eight electro-magnets, each with primary and secondary windings of copper wire, which are arranged around a large steel core. The core likewise has a single winding. A coil thus constructed, he says, is lifeless until given an initial impulse. This is done by connecting the ends of its windings for a fraction of a second to an ordinary[two words unreadable R.L.R.] -ing circuit, he says. The manner of this momentary charging, however, constitutes the principal secret of the device, according to the inventor, who says that while machinists have built a number of coils for him under his direction, they have been unable to "start" them. In the event the power of the coil should diminish, it can be rejuvenated in less than a second, Hubbard says. ______________________________________ Photo captions 1-- Arrangement of Hubbard coil and motor in boat. The motor is nearest the bow. 2-- Alfred M. Hubbard, inventor of the coil used as a power unit. 3--The boat under way, driven by a motor which obtained its power from the Hubbard coil. _______________ Photos by Walter P. Miller, Post-Intelligencer Staff Photographer. --------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA ---------------------------------smtp envelope-------------------------------- Received: from transfer.stratus.com by vos.stratus.com id 33001217389950;Sat, 16 Dec 95 0:23 EST Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by transfer.stratus.com (8.7.1/8.6.11) with SMTP id AAA26636 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA06311 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:07:52 -0800 Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA06178 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:07:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199512160507.VAA06178@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:07:40 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Hubbard Article Sender: owner-freenrg-list@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 20:18:23 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA13827 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA13800 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA15001; Mon, 18 Dec 95 23:14:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:14:09 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Andrew Cantino Wow, a fascinating concept, however, if the fieild were localized, would it not give a very low altitude unless it relied on aerodynamic principles, therfore the localized thrust would act like a VTOL (verticle take off and landing). So you'd have more a plane than a car, unless you mean a hover-car. Field harmonics however aren't my field... And about that cheap propulsion... Here's the cheapest, good prouplsion you can get... and even make yourself... Want your car to run on water? Sure why not! If you build an electrolosys machine, which splits hydrogen and oxygen into it's two respective atomic components, you get a tank (if you had the machine divert it into a tank) full of oxygen, and one twice as full of hydrogen. Then you super cool the tanks with ssay... liquid nitrogen tubing, to bring them down to about 200 below. So now you have a tank full of liquid oxygen, and one full of liquid hydrogen. If you pump that oxygen and hydrogen into a combustion chamber at a fairly fast speed, and add a spark, BOOM! you have an incredible explosion. in a combustion chamber such an explosion is channelled outwards and becomes a jet exhaust. Or you could use the exhause to power turbines to turn wheels, or into a form of reciprocating engine. You could make an electrolosys machine for really cheap, and use BBQ tanks for storage... Actually, I've ran this experement sevral times and gotten incredible results. Hope I was some help Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 16:10:51 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA08984 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA08969 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from t9.dialup.peg.apc.org (t9.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.137]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id KAA02628 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:57:27 +1000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:57:27 +1000 Message-Id: <199512190057.KAA02628@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >"In the Philadelphia Experiment, I believe that there were >three or four conical shaped Tesla Coils on board the ship, all >peaking slightly out of phase, so it would have had an effect >something like a coin having been spun on its edge on a table top, >as it rocks part way toward its rest condition, a spiraling Interesting thing about the conical shape. In all the experiments I did with teslas years ago I found that if the primary had a "conical" shape there was less chance of "arcing" between primary and secondary. For example if the diameter of the bottom of my primary was 12 inches then I would make the diameter of the top around 16 inches. Sort of a "slanting" shaped primary. As the voltage on the secondary increases dramatically even 6-8 inches from the bottom there is sometimes sufficient potential to arc to the primary. You'll notice this in photos of the larger tesla coils - the primary is usually slanted out at the top. In the later stages I started to experiment with the concept of having a small tesla drive a larger tesla. I seemed to recall that I ended up using a rotating spark gap in the primary to get the necessary "pulse" effect to drive the second tesla. The most complete constructional manual I have seen on teslas is: TESLA COIL SECRETS, by R.A. Ford from LINDSAY PUBICATIONS. This covers coil construction up to 5 million volts and other things like rotating spark gaps. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:23:24 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA20570 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA20508 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:22:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512191822.KAA20508@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:28:18 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Wallace Information Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:45 PM 12/19/95 -0600, you wrote: >>Oops. Sorry folks. I didn't mean to dump all this Wallace stuff >>here again. Thought I was sending this email. >>Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) >> > >Well, Robert, being a newcomer, I hadn't seen this before, so I for one >appreciate your boo-boo! > >Thanks for the mistake. > >Bert > > > My sentiments exactly Bert. Thanks Robert, glad it came through. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 22:12:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA02415 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA02396 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from t58.dialup.peg.apc.org (t58.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.186]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id RAA15699 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:11:01 +1000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:11:01 +1000 Message-Id: <199512190711.RAA15699@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >So now you have a tank full of liquid oxygen, and one full of liquid >hydrogen. If you pump that oxygen and hydrogen into a combustion chamber >at a fairly fast speed, and add a spark, BOOM! you have an incredible >explosion. in a combustion chamber such an explosion is channelled >outwards and becomes a jet exhaust. Or you could use the exhause to power >turbines to turn wheels, or into a form of reciprocating engine. > >You could make an electrolosys machine for really cheap, and use BBQ >tanks for storage... Actually, I've ran this experement sevral times and >gotten incredible results. > >Hope I was some help >Wolf Wolf...sounds interesting.....but why bother to go to the trouble to store the fuel at ultra-low temperatures? Why not feed the hydrogen and oxygen straight into the motor? About 20 years a go an inventor in Nelson, New Zealand came up with a water powered car which actually worked. I saw it. His concept was bought by the "Club of Rome" for, I think, $2m. Trouble was, their cheque bounced and he couldn't afford to fight them. Made big headlines in NZ at the time then suddenly there was no news at all!!!!! It's always puzzled me. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 06:21:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA13313 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13307 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id JAA15095 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:18:45 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA819393144 Tue, 19 Dec 95 09:12:24 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 09:12:24 From: "reim" Encoding: 2413 Text Message-Id: <9511198193.AA819393144@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Are you sure about this. liquid nitrogen boils at -195.8 C where liquid hydrogen boils at -252.7 C. How would you convert hydrogen to a liquid using nitrogen. Also if I recall from chemistry it takes more energy to breakdown water by electrolosys than you recover once its is recombined, not to mention the energy needed for the refrigeration equipment to keep it in liquid form. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) Author: magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list at ~Internet Date: 12/18/95 11:53 PM To: Andrew Cantino Wow, a fascinating concept, however, if the fieild were localized, would it not give a very low altitude unless it relied on aerodynamic principles, therfore the localized thrust would act like a VTOL (verticle take off and landing). So you'd have more a plane than a car, unless you mean a hover-car. Field harmonics however aren't my field... And about that cheap propulsion... Here's the cheapest, good prouplsion you can get... and even make yourself... Want your car to run on water? Sure why not! If you build an electrolosys machine, which splits hydrogen and oxygen into it's two respective atomic components, you get a tank (if you had the machine divert it into a tank) full of oxygen, and one twice as full of hydrogen. Then you super cool the tanks with ssay... liquid nitrogen tubing, to bring them down to about 200 below. So now you have a tank full of liquid oxygen, and one full of liquid hydrogen. If you pump that oxygen and hydrogen into a combustion chamber at a fairly fast speed, and add a spark, BOOM! you have an incredible explosion. in a combustion chamber such an explosion is channelled outwards and becomes a jet exhaust. Or you could use the exhause to power turbines to turn wheels, or into a form of reciprocating engine. You could make an electrolosys machine for really cheap, and use BBQ tanks for storage... Actually, I've ran this experement sevral times and gotten incredible results. Hope I was some help Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 05:53:14 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA10368 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA10360 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id FAA23113; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:52:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 05:52:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: scalar antenna? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was reading Bearden's article and had some thoughts. Bearden says that our views on EM are distorted because we use metal conductors which have electron flow but not proton flow. In wires, the current is composed of negative charge flow. But in electrolytes, the current is made up of interpenetrating flows of negative and POSITIVE ions. So, what would happen if a loop antenna was constructed from an electrolyte-filled hose? Would this antenna with free positive and negative charged particles inside start picking up signals which a standard metal antenna would not? Or have I just re-invented Howodnak's capacitor-based scalar detector circuit? Even more interesting: if this fluid/hose/coil antenna was used to broadcast significant RF power, would the positive ion currents cause any phenomena which would not arise if a metal wire coil was used? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 06:34:43 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA14861 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA14843 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA16836 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:25:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id IAA08279; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:34:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:34:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512191434.IAA08279@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: scalar antenna? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I was reading Bearden's article and had some thoughts. Bearden says that >our views on EM are distorted because we use metal conductors which have >electron flow but not proton flow. > >In wires, the current is composed of negative charge flow. But in >electrolytes, the current is made up of interpenetrating flows of negative >and POSITIVE ions. So, what would happen if a loop antenna was >constructed from an electrolyte-filled hose? Would this antenna with free >positive and negative charged particles inside start picking up signals >which a standard metal antenna would not? Or have I just re-invented >Howodnak's capacitor-based scalar detector circuit? > >Even more interesting: if this fluid/hose/coil antenna was used to >broadcast significant RF power, would the positive ion currents cause any >phenomena which would not arise if a metal wire coil was used? > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page Hi Bill et al, When I first started reading your post the first thought which crept into my mind was Hodowanec's detector. The hose idea would be worth a try to see what happens, too! The underground systems of James Harris Rogers in the early part of the century also supposedly generated & detected scalar waves. There has been some more recent experimentation by radio amateurs with this underground antenna idea. I have yet to play with it. One of these days... but not while we have 4 inches of snow on the ground! :-) Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 07:28:52 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA22038 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA22018 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id KAA14785 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:28:26 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512191528.KAA14785@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:28:24 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9511198193.AA819393144@irout.advantor.com> from "reim" at Dec 19, 95 09:12:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, thats it. It is like a hover car, but can fly higher. The sound waves do not need to bunce of anything. The sound its self cause a high pressure zone UNDER the craft. This gives it lift. +------------------------------+ | | | Sound wave creater | +------------------------------+ | | | | | | <----Sound is emited *********************** High pressure ---> ********************* **************************** *********** Andrew Cantino ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:29:39 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA21608 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA21597 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA20897; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:27:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:27:12 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. In-Reply-To: <199512051841.KAA25167@ix2.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > When we take a basic EM wave we have to start some where. My original > post mentions that the E and M components vanish together meaning they > cross zero together. The question is, since both are field strength > vectors and vanish together, where has the energy been displaced? I > think everyone appreciates Maxwell's E and B equations (B and E have > identical wave form equations) and the fact that E and B are transverse > waves perpendicular to the the direction of propagation and are in > phase. Very simple question, just a plain EM wave propagating straight > ahead, where is the energy at the zero crossing nodes? For whatever it's worth, and I'm not sure that anyone is still interested, sitting in a pizza shop a few days ago it came to me where I had gone wrong in my understanding of Maxwell's Equations, and why curl B = E dot really does imply that the E and B are IN phase, not at 90 degrees. If anyone cares, I will reveal the proof. The question still remains "where does the energy go when they reach zero strength simultaneously?" I refer to Halliday and Resnick (3rd edition), Electromagnetic Fields by Wangsness (2nd ed), Feynman Lectures, and Principles of Electrodynamics by Schwartz. Only this last book comes close to giving a satisfactory answer to the question. But it does so in terms of retarded potentials, which is a totally different way of seeing things, and I give myself about 2 weeks to come to true understanding of this. At which time I'll explain it to anyone that is still interested. Charles From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:35:51 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA22574 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA22545 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA28090; Tue, 19 Dec 95 13:31:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:31:44 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: Chuck Knight Cc: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Chuck Knight wrote: > Gee, this sounds almost like Luke Skywalker's car in Star Wars. I wonder > if George Lucas knew about TTBrown et al? That;s where I got the idea from :-) And you never know... > Two questions...One, where does the power for the electrolysis come > from? I mean, are you generating it at a central site, and then running > the car off the liquid gases, or are you doing it "on the fly?" Well, in theory, say there were a large spread of H2O2 cars, then the electrolosys would be preformed by plugging in a large DC power supply at a say a lake bed, and then pipe it around to a filling station, like you buy propane I would guess... (hey this was just a theroy :-) ) > Two, why must it be compressed into liquid form? Gaseous hydrogen and > oxygen will combine with a rather nice explosion, too...and no cryogenic > storage problems exist. Well, according to the NASA data charts, when you compress the gasses into a liquid, you can easily atchive a higher thrust ratio, and gasses take up a hell of alot of room, if you had a dual tank on a car, they'd have to be huge! Compressing the gasses, then passing them through a pre-burner would expand them... and you could simply carry more... > I'm playing around with electrolysis right now...I know electrons will > tend to migrate to sharp points/edges, so that will be the point of > highest production. I also know that gases clinging to the electrodes > will reduce efficiency and gas production... Any other hints to share? > > -- Chuck Knight You could possibly counteract the inefficiency by adding more voltage, or having a (however corny this sound) form of vibrator type device on it to "shake" the gas bubbles off them. Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:42:06 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA23549 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA23523 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA28897; Tue, 19 Dec 95 13:38:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:38:00 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Cc: jfrancis@peg.apc.org In-Reply-To: <199512190711.RAA15699@peg.apc.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Jim Francis wrote: > Wolf...sounds interesting.....but why bother to go to the trouble to store > the fuel at ultra-low temperatures? Why not feed the hydrogen and oxygen > straight into the motor? Well, you'd store the oxygen and hydrogen at near absoloute zero so that you can store more of it on board the car. Hydrogen is generally a `big' gas, requiring a whole lot of gas for a small period of time. the H2O2 reaction is quick and requires alot of gas to do so. What a possibility would be is to pump the liquid out of the tank, and send it to a set of pre-burners to expand it. > About 20 years a go an inventor in Nelson, New Zealand came up with a water > powered car which actually worked. I saw it. His concept was bought by the > "Club of Rome" for, I think, $2m. Trouble was, their cheque bounced and he > couldn't afford to fight them. Made big headlines in NZ at the time then > suddenly there was no news at all!!!!! It's always puzzled me. > > Jim > Well, a car that would run on water, would probbably have a form of electrolosys onboard.. probbably would not compress and cryogenate the gasses, so it would need alot of water. Probbably, with a little work, any standard car engine could be converted... just think... next time someone says "car's don't run on water you know"... you could laugh and say "mine does" ahahaha Wolf Skyward Aerospace Specializing in sales, service and graphic design (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 09:49:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA14733 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA14679 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dal47.fastlane.net (dal47.fastlane.net [204.251.16.147]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA25999 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:45:38 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:45:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199512191845.MAA25999@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: Re: fnrg: Wallace Information X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Oops. Sorry folks. I didn't mean to dump all this Wallace stuff >here again. Thought I was sending this email. >Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) Well, Robert, being a newcomer to this listserve, I for one have not seen this info before, so thanks for your mistake! Bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 10:53:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA25283 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25270 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA09727 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:52:37 -0500 Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list id AA00125; Tue, 19 Dec 95 13:48:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:48:39 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Cc: freenet!magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net In-Reply-To: <9511198193.AA819393144@irout.advantor.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, reim wrote: > > Are you sure about this. liquid nitrogen boils at -195.8 C where > liquid hydrogen boils at -252.7 C. How would you convert hydrogen to > a liquid using nitrogen. Also if I recall from chemistry it takes > more energy to breakdown water by electrolosys than you recover once > its is recombined, not to mention the energy needed for the > refrigeration equipment to keep it in liquid form. > > I had only used liquid nitrogen as an example, however you could take say a BBQ tank, and wrap some hoses around it (maybe copper) and then build a box around the hoses and tank, filling the box with a form of insullation (aluminized mylar, that expandie stuff in a can, fiberglass, whatever) then at a continual cycle run the liquid nitrogen through it, and cool the tank down, as the gas enters the tank it would slowly turn to liquid... On a car, you could keep the tanks cold by form of superinsulation (possibly an aluminized mylar/neoprene combination like in the space suits) and use a step up transformer/inverter to turn 12volts into 120AC. Plus (like on a jet engine) you could have some of the H2O2 turn a special turbine which would charge the batteries on the car. Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:17:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA29485 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA29471 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:17:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA05637; Tue, 19 Dec 95 14:04:59 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 19 Dec 95 14:16:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 14:11:07 EST Message-Id: <4F06+9tkpkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Only this last book comes close to giving a satisfactory answer to the question. But it does so in terms of retarded potentials, which is a totally different way of seeing things, and I give myself about 2 weeks to come to true understanding of this. At which time I'll explain it to anyone that is still interested." Yes, I'm interested, I'd rather understand it than not, and the degree of confusion on this subject shows that it's probalby not been taught very well. I asked how we might verify this, and was told (by a retired physist) that you cannot, as you can only make measurments in the near field area of a receiving antenna, and never in "free space". It kinda made some sense too. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:43:40 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA04397 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA04318 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:42:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA06364; Tue, 19 Dec 95 14:30:50 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 19 Dec 95 14:42:31 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 14:20:06 EST Message-Id: <4F06+a,lpkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A "On a car, you could keep the tanks cold by form of superinsulation (possibly an aluminized mylar/neoprene combination like in the space suits) and use a step up transformer/inverter to turn 12volts into 120AC. Plus (like on a jet engine) you could have some of the H2O2 turn a special turbine which would charge the batteries on the car." This is absurd! If you electrolize the water to produce the gas, you pay in energy. If you cool the gases down, you pay in energy again. Only once you preheat and ignite the fuel (H2 and 0, not 02) will you get energy out, and still not as much as it took to split up the water in the first place, mush less the cooling and storage energy costs. So we'll burn more gas to produce the power we loose making and/or storing the gas? "Your mileage may vary." If you put a generator on the engine, you loose yet more power. Hydrogen might be used to drive cars, but you'd pump the hydrogen into the car in a cryogenic state, and not produce it on board. We need an external solar powered electrolisis and cryogenics plant to feed these cars properly. So we'll burn more gas to produce the power we loose making the gas? Any why carry all the oxygen around anyway, it's available anywhere I drive. Cant we use atmospheric oxygen to preheat and burn the cryogenic hydrogen? This would save some weight and space I think. For "advanced" aircraft where weight and fuel volume is critical, hydrogen has proven to be far less preferable to cryogenic methane and more exotic fuels, would pure hydrogen compare to these fuels? Even thses high altitude aircraft are still air breathers, and do not carry a seperate oxidizer other than those oxygen contributers in the fuel itself. I think the collision damage potential will keep cryogenic hydrogen out of cars for quite some time. It's probably safer and easier to go solar electric. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:28:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA01644 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from corp.tig.com (corp.tig.com [198.178.129.31]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01626 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from danny@localhost) by corp.tig.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA00219; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:27:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:27:38 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Schmitt Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > So now you have a tank full of liquid oxygen, and one full of liquid > hydrogen. If you pump that oxygen and hydrogen into a combustion chamber > at a fairly fast speed, and add a spark, BOOM! you have an incredible > explosion. in a combustion chamber such an explosion is channelled > outwards and becomes a jet exhaust. Or you could use the exhause to power > turbines to turn wheels, or into a form of reciprocating engine. And the exhaust is water vapour, which is about as non-polluting as yer gonna get. My only question is, how much power will it take to perform the seperation, and would it be any more efficient than just running an electric motor off of the same power source? l8z, -Danny "Every jumbled pile of person has a | Daniel Schmitt thinking part that wonders what the | part that isn't thinking isn't | A1200/10megs RAM/'030 Soon! thinking of." --TMBG | AMIGA - Back for the future! From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:46:45 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA05074 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from corp.tig.com (corp.tig.com [198.178.129.31]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA04923 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from danny@localhost) by corp.tig.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA00354; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:45:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:45:31 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Schmitt Subject: fnrg: Radiometers To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I have been reading all the posts about ion propulsion, etc, and it reminded me of the little radiometer sitting here on my window sill. I was under the impression that it was simply driven by the air turbulence created by the hot and cold plates. For some reason I never really gave it a second thought. Recently, however, someone told me that the thing works in a vacuum, which I suppose makes sense judging from the way that it is sealed. If it does work in a vacuum, then there is obviosly something a little bit more interesting going on. Ion wind, maybe? Could someone shed some light on the subject? Of course, if I had saved the little pamphlet that comes with the thing.... :) But i was young an foolish then. (I'm old an foolish now). l8z, -Danny "Every jumbled pile of person has a | Daniel Schmitt thinking part that wonders what the | part that isn't thinking isn't | A1200/10megs RAM/'030 Soon! thinking of." --TMBG | AMIGA - Back for the future! From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 12:19:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA10393 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA10306 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA07260; Tue, 19 Dec 95 15:06:42 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Tue, 19 Dec 95 15:18:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 15:16:51 EST Message-Id: <4F06+nqlpkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Radiometers X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Radiometers work by the few air molecules in the partial vaccum within the radiometer gaining more kenitic energy from the dark sides of the plates than they do from the light sides, and so an imballence of forces exist as the recoil from the collisions on the dark sides is greater than that on the light sides. If you let room pressure inside, they stop working due to air resistance, and if you completely evacuate them, they stop owrking as ther are no molecules in there to bounce off the plates and generate the recoil imballence that causes the plates to rotate. The exact degree of vaccum is a bit critical for a good radiometer. I never understood them very well untill I read the side of the box mine came in, only then did I begin to wonder just how I had though they operated before reading the box. I clearly had not a clue, as I also though there was a hard vaccum in there. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:57:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA16469 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA16259 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:55:16 -0800 (PST) From: KGSurfer@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA05180 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:51:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:51:44 -0500 Message-ID: <951219185141_76113992@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Propulsion (fwd) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A For those of you discussing electrolysis, I suggest you check a file called MEYER.TXT on the KeeleyNet. He apparently has already patented his new form of electrolysis and has been running his car on hydroden and oxygen for the last several years. The schematics on this thing are available - has anybody else built this? Here is a small excerpt from the file: Eye-witness accounts suggest that US inventor Stanley Meyer has developed an electric cell which will split ordinary tap water into hydrogen and oxygen with far less energy than that required by a normal electrolytic cell. Where normal water electrolysis requires the passage of current measured in amps, Meyer's cell achieves the same effect in milliamps. Furthermore ordinary tap water requires the addition of an electrolyte such as sulphuric acid to aid current conduction; Meyer's cell functions at greatest efficiency with pure water. According to the witnesses, the most startling aspect of the Meyer cell was that it remained cold, even after hours of gas production. Meyer's experiments, which he seems to be able to perform to order, have earned him a series of US patents granted under Section 101. The granting of a patent under this section is dependent on a successful demonstration of the invention to a Patent Review Board. Meyer's cell seems to have many of the attributes of an electrolytic cell except that it functions at high voltage, low current rather than the other way around. Construction is unremarkable. The electrodes - referred to as "excitors" by Meyer- are made from parallel plates of stainless steel formed in either flat or concentric topography. Gas production seems to vary as the inverse of the distance between them; the patents suggest a spacing of 1.5mm produces satisfactory results. If anybody has a problem getting this file, I would be glad to send it to them or upload the whole thing to the freenrg-list K. Seuferer From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:58:14 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA16838 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA16767 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA24721 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:48:05 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA26614; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:57:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:57:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512192357.RAA26614@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Magnetron Tuning Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >You wrote: > >>There was an article in a ham radio magazine, COMMUNICATIONS >QUARTERLY, >>withing the last couple years, involving phase-locking a microwave >oven >>magnetron and modulating it. >> >>I believe he injected about 20 watts of phase-locked RF in a >>pump-oscillator configuration to do this. >> >>I forget over what range he was able to vary the frequency. I'll dig >out >>the article. But he was using the tube in a special cavity he designed > >>and taking the power out to a dish antenna. >> >>Zack >>w9sz@prairienet.org > >11/18/95 > >Zack, > >Any luck in digging out that article? > >Thanks, > >RWW Hi RWW! Yes, I found it ... it was in a magazine called COMMUNICATIONS QUARTERLY for Winter 1991. He uses a Toshiba 2M172A magnetron in the 13-cm band (2304 MHz). About 10-20 watts of crystal-controlled power is injected using a circulator to phase-lock it. He gets about 750 watts out. He's been using it for EME (Earth-Moon-Earth, or moonbounce) communication on that band. This is not something I'd be building in the near future, but his design is interesting! Zack From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 00:19:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA23444 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA23405 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:17:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512200817.AAA23405@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:16:40 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:17 AM 12/20/95 +1000, you wrote: >> >>Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the possibility >>of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would happen >>is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our dimension. >>One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. >>This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. >>Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com >> > >There have been some interesting developments in the field of projected >thought. Remote Viewing is one aspect of this. One of the worlds leading >remote viewers (an ex-US military intelligence officer)wrote a fascinating >book about it. Its....MIND TREK by Joseph McGoneagle. He has managed to >place his mind inside an atomic device at the point of detonation. He was >featured on US television recently (also here in Australia) demonstrating >how it works. Princeton University, the Monroe Institute and Stanford >Research Institute (SRI) are all involved in it. Apparently anyone can be >trained to do it. I have personally had considerable success with it. It's >quite uncanny. > >Jim > > > Art Bell conducted a remote viewing experiment with his listeners last night. He placed an object on his ham radio set in the room, and pictured it vividly in his mind while looking at it, and asked his listeners to call in and try to tell him what it was. One person came very close. Another one hit it to a degree of perfection, having faxed him a drawing of it. It was a large clear marble that someone had created for him, with his image inside it, sitting on a metal stand. The fax was a drawing of exactly that. Other people called describing other objects in their house instead of the one targeted. Bad aim. [Art Bell can be heard on some 200 radio stations around the U.S., and outside the U.S. also, from 11 pm to 4 am Pacific time. He also has a special program on Sunday evening at 7 pm called "Dreamland" to cover the more farout subjects.] Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 00:37:49 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA26004 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA25987 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:37:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512200837.AAA25987@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:36:55 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey there! Ho! Whoa partner... At 09:53 PM 12/19/95 -0500, you wrote: > Let's see, first you can't have a low-voltage splitting process. It's relative I suppose, but it only takes about one and a half volts to break up water. >However, you do NEED DC voltage, do NOT use AC voltage or it'll fry you... AC works too, just not as well. I think you mean don't just hook up wires from a wall outlet. But if you use a stepdown transformer or variac, AC will also split water, just not as efficiently as DC. >and voilla! you have one tube of O2 and one tube of H2. You can turn them >upright because they're heavier than air and the gas won't escape. Heaven help us. H2 will run out of the test tube if you hold it upright. It's lighter than air. > Just don't spark them... And miss the fun? Holding the H2 test tube upside down, light a match and hold it near. It produces a nifty popping sound, and is better than a scary movie to frighten the gespleebers out of everybody. There's no substitute for real experience. Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 17:43:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA02793 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA02784 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA29624; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:41:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:41:23 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4F06+a,lpkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > I think the collision damage potential will keep cryogenic hydrogen out of > cars for quite some time. It's probably safer and easier to go solar > electric. I recall a recent post on sci.energy where someone calculated the energy derived from expanding liquid nitrogen. Pound for pound, it was a good fraction of the energy derived from burning gasoline. Just what we need, tanks of liquid nitrogen bailing down the highway at 55mph (except Montana, where it will be 130mph) So, the amount of energy needed to liquify the gases could be partially extracted when the gases were burned, especially if a great huge heat sink was used to add environmental heat. And kids would dare each other to lick the frosty tailpipe in the summer! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 17:49:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA03974 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA03951 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA00359; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:48:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:48:43 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Radiometers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Danny Schmitt wrote: > > I have been reading all the posts about ion propulsion, etc, and it > reminded me of the little radiometer sitting here on my window sill. I > was under the impression that it was simply driven by the air turbulence > created by the hot and cold plates. I went through this controversy long ago. Radiometers are often wrongly thought to be run by light pressure. But they will only run in a partial vacuum, and stop moving if placed in a really "hard" vacuum. There is a paper from early this century which points out that the true explanation involves lateral motion of gases along the painted surfaces, with unbalanced motion leading to thrusting forces when the two colors of paint are at different temperatures. I don't quite visualize this, it might mean that there are sheet-jets of gas being launched from the edges of the little diamonds. Put your radiometer in a refridgerator and it will run backwards for a short while. Or heat it up with a nearby spotlight, then when you turn off the light it will run backwards. Or, when it is at room temperature and has stopped, hold it so it "sees" a cold winter scene out a large window, and it will run backwards slowly. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 17:56:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA05163 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA05143 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA00880; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:55:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:55:56 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Propulsion (fwd) In-Reply-To: <951219185141_76113992@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995 KGSurfer@aol.com wrote: > For those of you discussing electrolysis, I suggest you check a file called > MEYER.TXT on the KeeleyNet. He apparently has already patented his new form > of electrolysis and has been running his car on hydroden and oxygen for the > last several years. The schematics on this thing are available - has anybody > else built this? I think that file is linked through my Free Energy Devices file at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/fnrg.html I've heard reports of people trying to replicate Meyer's device from his patent, and having the devices not work. As if Meyer kept some secrets. Which I think is foolish. Can't anyone who rediscovers his real technique go and patent it?! And if Meyer had told all and maybe sold kits, he'd be incredibly famous now. Sounds like he has the "inventors disease", the one where greed, secrecy, and paranoia destroy any chance of getting the invention out into the world. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 17:44:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA03221 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA03173 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:43:55 -0800 (PST) From: KGSurfer@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA02406 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:42:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:42:35 -0500 Message-ID: <951219204146_94865843@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Propulsion (fwd) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >For those of you discussing electrolysis, I suggest you check a file called >MEYER.TXT on the KeeleyNet. He apparently has already patented his new form >of electrolysis and has been running his car on hydroden and oxygen for the >last several years. The schematics on this thing are available - has anybody >else built this? Sorry! I didn't actually find the schematics on the KeelyNet. All the schematics and information for this are at: ftp://hoffman.rstnu.bcm.tmc.edu cd pub/free_energy/meyer K. Seuferer From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 18:44:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA12427 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA12408 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by utdallas.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id UAA18267; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:43:49 -0600 Received: from infoserv.utdallas.edu by utdallas.edu (Brelay v6.01) with BLIMP; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:43:48 CST Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:43:47 -0600 (CST) From: Chuck Knight To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Propulsion (fwd) In-Reply-To: <951219204146_94865843@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995 KGSurfer@aol.com wrote: > >For those of you discussing electrolysis, I suggest you check a file called > >MEYER.TXT on the KeeleyNet. He apparently has already patented his new form > > Sorry! I didn't actually find the schematics on the KeelyNet. All the > schematics and information for this are at: > > ftp://hoffman.rstnu.bcm.tmc.edu > cd pub/free_energy/meyer It's also available on KEELYNET, as the filename MEYER3.ZIP. This zip includes the text files, diagrams, and schematics. -- Chuck Knight From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:29:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA18739 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA18734 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by utdallas.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id VAA19380; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:28:53 -0600 Received: from infoserv.utdallas.edu by utdallas.edu (Brelay v6.01) with BLIMP; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:28:53 CST Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:28:52 -0600 (CST) From: Chuck Knight To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Wolfgang Starchild wrote: > On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Andrew Cantino wrote: > > > Yes, thats it. It is like a hover car, but can fly higher. The sound > > waves do not need to bunce of anything. The sound its self cause a high > > pressure zone UNDER the craft. This gives it lift. Check out the technology that is used in the Canon EOS camera system, for their USM lenses. An ultrasound emitter causes micro-ripples in a ring, which causes rotary motion. Very similar to the application discussed here...at least in theory. > Well Andrew, I'm not sure that a high pressure system alone would be > capable of pushing against nothing and getting lift. I do understand how > you mean, but aeronautcally speaking, if you push against nothing, you > get nothing but "wasted" push I belive... (try pushing the celing while > sitting on the floor. if you're not connected, you hand goes up, but > nothing happens) You would in fact need the ground for the high pressure > system top push at... However it is a fascinating concept. What type of > emmitter would you use? > > It has alot of possibilities, i.e. no more helicopters, automobiles, > VTOL's on aircraft, just think, a large pallate of supplies could sit and > float, it wouldn't need too much to push it... Yes, and you needn't lift it very far. So long as it's floating, it's floating. Oh Star Trek...we're catching up to you! -- Chuck Knight From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 18:58:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA14546 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA14520 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA18028; Tue, 19 Dec 95 21:53:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:53:36 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. To: Jerome Dewhurst Cc: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Jerome Dewhurst wrote: > Hi Wolfgang, > > I am particularly interested in making one of these coils that can split > water into hydrogen and oxygen on low voltages. > Well, the process is simple, yet complex to explain. Let's see, first you can't have a low-voltage splitting process. However, you do NEED DC voltage, do NOT use AC voltage or it'll fry you... Anyways, you take a DC power supply (Fairly easy to obtain, or make even, just need an AC/DC inverter and a large step-up-diode/capaitor board) and then take the positive and negative, attach conductive poles to them. WHen you do this, immurse the poles sso that they are hung over the edge of a beaker, then pointing upward, like so: | DC supply |--|-| | <- Conduictive Pole | |------| | | | | | | | |--- | |--------------- <-- Beaker I know that is a *really* sloppy drawing, but if you look in any high-school science textbook you'll find a better pictorial. Ok, so now you have a DC power supply, and two electrodes, side by side with about a 1 inch (3cm) space between them, you now pour water into the beaker. If you want the process to go really fast, pour 1 part sulfuric acid to 3 parts water. The sulfuric acid acts as a catalyst. Now, put some test tubes over the conductive poles (make a liuttlle wire holder so they don't touch the bottom of the conducive poles, but do cover them). Then turn on the juice. When the poles start to bubble you'll be seeing the electrolosys in action! Then take the tubes, when they're full (you'll see them full because the water will be pushed out) and voilla! you have one tube of O2 and one tube of H2. You can turn them upright because they're heavier than air and the gas won't escape. Just don't spark them... That's the labratory way to do it... Hope I was of help Wolf > _________________________________ > > Any emails from slim, sexy women > who want a good time, appreciated > _________________________________ I Need a tag line like that :-) [but I think the wife would mind] Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:16:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA17194 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA17174 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA20182; Tue, 19 Dec 95 22:12:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:12:28 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512191528.KAA14785@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Andrew Cantino wrote: > Yes, thats it. It is like a hover car, but can fly higher. The sound > waves do not need to bunce of anything. The sound its self cause a high > pressure zone UNDER the craft. This gives it lift. Well Andrew, I'm not sure that a high pressure system alone would be capable of pushing against nothing and getting lift. I do understand how you mean, but aeronautcally speaking, if you push against nothing, you get nothing but "wasted" push I belive... (try pushing the celing while sitting on the floor. if you're not connected, you hand goes up, but nothing happens) You would in fact need the ground for the high pressure system top push at... However it is a fascinating concept. What type of emmitter would you use? It has alot of possibilities, i.e. no more helicopters, automobiles, VTOL's on aircraft, just think, a large pallate of supplies could sit and float, it wouldn't need too much to push it... Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:20:52 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA17746 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA17718 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA20670; Tue, 19 Dec 95 22:16:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:16:38 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <9512141053.A4267wk@deepcove.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 14 Dec 1995 greg.birdsall@deepcove.com wrote: > > Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the possibility > of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would happen > is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our dimension. > One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. > This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. > Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com > Hmmm, that's interesting, however isn't this where your Star Trek physics coulld come in handy? You would have to create a localized field distortion around the vessel, via emmitters placed on the hull which would lliteraly "slip" the ship into an alternate dimension if you wil, using einstines theory that if you remove time, A becomes B, therefore destination A is also destination B. Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:26:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA18458 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA18410 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA21191; Tue, 19 Dec 95 22:22:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:22:12 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Danny Schmitt wrote: > And the exhaust is water vapour, which is about as non-polluting as yer > gonna get. My only question is, how much power will it take to > perform the seperation, and would it be any more efficient than just > running an electric motor off of the same power source? > You have a very good point Danny, however, you must remember the size of an electric DC motor that coud produce 100 horespower. It would take literally kilowatts of power to run per hour. So by converting an old reciprocatiung engine to a H2O2 engine, you keep the horespower. In regards to power; splitting the molecules, andthen keeping them cool would at first be an expensive thought, however think of how much would be saved in oil, ecological damage (less oil needed in the tankers), and mining expenses, far outweight the costs in electricity. However if a true H2O2 car were developed by say GM, mass prodiced, and the stations mass produced, the cost would inevetably come down due to mass production. Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:38:11 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA19989 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA19947 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA22821; Tue, 19 Dec 95 22:33:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:33:57 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4F06+a,lpkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > This is absurd! If you electrolize the water to produce the gas, you pay > in energy. If you cool the gases down, you pay in energy again. Only once > you preheat and ignite the fuel (H2 and 0, not 02) will you get energy out, > and still not as much as it took to split up the water in the first place, > mush less the cooling and storage energy costs. > You are right that it would take much energy to break down the water, however, install a solar panel or two and you have FREE energy... now compare those so called "absurd costs" to that of the reciprocating gasoline engine... We have to mine the oil We have to pay people to mine it We then have to ship the oil to a refinery, which we have to pay for then we have to pay to have it refined into gasoline, and have additives added Then we have to pay trucks to ship it from the plant to the gas station Then we put it in a car which only gets approximatly 20% drive from the 100% of feul spent on producing that drive... Now THAT'S inefficient, where an H2O2 plant would cost nothing to run, parts will never break down (being mostly solid state, repair occasionaly), and then one truck with two tanks leave, no environmenta damage possible unless the truck EXPLODES... > So we'll burn more gas to produce the power we loose making and/or storing > the gas? "Your mileage may vary." > How much energy do we loose producing gasoline from crude oil? > If you put a generator on the engine, you loose yet more power. Hydrogen > might be used to drive cars, but you'd pump the hydrogen into the car in a > cryogenic state, and not produce it on board. We need an external solar > powered electrolisis and cryogenics plant to feed these cars properly. Well, at least it woudn't damage the environment now would it? > Any why carry all the oxygen around anyway, it's available anywhere I > drive. It is possible to take air from the atmosphere to foster the hydrogen combustion, however oxygen is pure... air is not. the air may have additives in it which would decrease efficency > For "advanced" aircraft where weight and fuel volume is critical, hydrogen > has proven to be far less preferable to cryogenic methane and more exotic > fuels, would pure hydrogen compare to these fuels? Even thses high altitude > aircraft are still air breathers, and do not carry a seperate oxidizer > other than those oxygen contributers in the fuel itself. Jet engines, however extremly efficent, are still air polouters, and jet engines have no poloutant reduction system like cars do. THey infact polloute more, but the kerosene derivatives they use (JP 1 thru 5) are dirty feuls. Methane is also a dirty feul, but has a very high flashpoint therefore it can be heated much better without explosion on say the Darkstar or the SR-71 Blackbird > I think the collision damage potential will keep cryogenic hydrogen out of > cars for quite some time. It's probably safer and easier to go solar > electric. You have the same collision potential with say one of those chevy trucks that explode if they're hit in the side... plus the storage tanks would have to have so much insullation that they would absorb the brunt of the impact. Wolfgang Starchild Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:41:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA20430 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA20420 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA23151; Tue, 19 Dec 95 22:37:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:37:23 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Chuck Knight wrote: > actually, I was considering using a rotating electrode which would create > a shearing effect in the boundary layer...this should carry the gases off > of the electrodes and into the collection "tubes." I see no reason that > something like a Tesla turbine could not be used...closely spaced discs, > each oppositely charged...huge surface area...and rotating which would > force the gas from the electrodes and into a storage area. Seems like it > should work, in theory. Well, you shoud stay away from anything complex. A rotating electode would just make the bubbles dizzy :-) it wouldn't knock them off. Or it would start to actually cause a form of centrifical force and throw the water everywhere, if you used a sulfuric acid catalyst you'd be in trouble (honey, sorry for the acid burns in the wall) I would use something that vibrates, shakes, or something, a rotational device may not work. However, to rotate, I would use something like a small electric motor with abelt (a hobby motor about 1in in diameter) and connect it to a controllable voltage sourceso you can control it. To build a controllable voltage box, all you do is buy a dual electrical box from the store, and a dimmer switch and a socket. connect the incomming power, positive to the socket, and negative to the dimmer switch and then the socket. then plug it in. this device works GREAT for keeping track of the heat of your solder gun. I couldn't ive without mine. > Say...do you know how to build a high voltage, low amperage power > supply? I know I can use a transformer to step up or down the > voltage...but I'm just starting in electronics, and don't even know how > to build an oscillator yet. > > -- Chuck Knight Well, an oscillator is simple. i belive, you take a metal tube, and wrap about 200 feet of thin copper wire around it... simple (i think that's how you make one)... a suggestion, join the Electronics Book Club, get like 5 books for a buck, including the basic course in electronics... it's a good club to join... Now, for your power supply... Lets see, you'll need a transformer from radio scrap, to turn your AC volts to DC volts. then on the board, you need a long series of capacitors and diodes. Every time you cross a diode by a capacitor you trpple the voltage. you can make a massive power supply this way. Then plug it into your dimmer box and you can have from 10 to 10,000 volts or MORE depending on how many capacitors and diodes you use. The plans are fairly common for capacitor step-ups, you can get them at the library for like a stun gun or something... Basically they look like this: - - - - - - - - Positive /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ - - - - - - - - - - - - Negative The -'s are capacitors and the / and \'s are diodes... make sure you check this with another source to get the polarity right... Anyways, after you have your transformer hooked to the step up string, that's it... Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:51:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA21869 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21805 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA24106; Tue, 19 Dec 95 22:45:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: Chuck Knight Cc: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Chuck Knight wrote: > Well, I meant an enclosed turbine-like device. But, you're right, that's > way too complicated. Back in the photo lab, we would just "tap" the > developing tank on the sink, to dislodge the bubbles...something similar > should work with an electrolysis cell. Well, tapping works great... and it's easy too :-) but if you want to walk away... the novelty of watching molecules spit soon wears off ahha > huh? Isn't that just an inductor, at that point? I'm taling about > something to output a square/triangle wave...I could probably do it with > a 555 timer, but I've never done it before. You're probbably right... I was just taking a guess... I don't use them so I have no idea what they are... I do however have an article on building them 555 timer and all... I'll have to get it for you ASAP > > I've seen something like this before...it looks simple enough. > It is pretty simple... you can build wicked stun guns with them... oops, better not give any mad scientists out there any ideas :-) The nice thing is, if you hit yourself with the terminalls, it usualy won't kill becuase you loose most of your amperage when your upgrade the voltage... this is very useful in such applications as electrolosys. > Too simple...I tend to make things more complicated than they need to > be. But, I think a lot of people have that problem. Take a look at the > US government! hehe Well, You just have to look at things in 10 D rather than just 3 D... Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:09:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA18837 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA18792 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from t14.dialup.peg.apc.org (t14.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.142]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id LAA21598 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:08:13 +1000 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:08:13 +1000 Message-Id: <199512200108.LAA21598@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: COPY OF: FI Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Re the use of tesla coils around computers etc. Be very careful. My friend >fired a medium size one up in an apartment building and fried adjacent >comnputers, digital clocks etc. I fired one up in a large film studio and >there were sparks jumping out of an outlet over 100 ft from the coil. >I would suggest working with tesla coils in environments which have no >electronic equipment. sincerely, Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com > Too true!!! The best place to use one is in the countryside. I had the New Zealand authorities come down on me like a ton of bricks....I was destroying TV reception in the local area and people couldn't watch Peyton Place properly. And the machine was only a 2Mv unit...not particularly large. Best thing to do is to wrap all your small valuable electronics (like mobile phones, etc) together in a alfoil package and earth this. This will shield them to some degree. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:18:59 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA20360 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA20295 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:18:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from t14.dialup.peg.apc.org (t14.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.142]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id LAA24207 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:17:38 +1000 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:17:38 +1000 Message-Id: <199512200117.LAA24207@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the possibility >of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would happen >is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our dimension. >One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. >This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. >Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com > There have been some interesting developments in the field of projected thought. Remote Viewing is one aspect of this. One of the worlds leading remote viewers (an ex-US military intelligence officer)wrote a fascinating book about it. Its....MIND TREK by Joseph McGoneagle. He has managed to place his mind inside an atomic device at the point of detonation. He was featured on US television recently (also here in Australia) demonstrating how it works. Princeton University, the Monroe Institute and Stanford Research Institute (SRI) are all involved in it. Apparently anyone can be trained to do it. I have personally had considerable success with it. It's quite uncanny. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:26:21 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA18408 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bogo.co.uk (root@mail.bogo.co.uk [193.112.164.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA18380 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.bogo.co.uk (darc.bogo.co.uk [194.193.88.133]) by mail.bogo.co.uk (8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA00844 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 03:25:44 GMT Message-ID: <30D7833D.96@mail.bogo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 03:30:05 +0000 From: "Guile D'Arc" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b2 (Windows; I; 32bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy ListServe Subject: fnrg: frnrg: Re: Questions on resonance (Meyer) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am new to this field so please excuse my lack of knowledge... In the Meyer device he uses resonance to break the covalent bonds in the H20 molecules. 1) Why does he polarize the molecule? Would it not be enough to resonate the bonds? 2) Does the "rule of thirds" apply in his resonating effect? 3) Is this effect really one that displays over-unity? Or is it a more efficient way to break the bonds? (Genuine question not intended to be sceptical) Thanks for your time, Guile D'Arc darc@mail.bogo.co.uk From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:14:15 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA26720 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA26664 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:08:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512202008.MAA26664@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:07:23 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >valves from burning away (oxy/hydrogen torches are the hottest welding >source I know of, excepting plasma torches). > > > > I believe it is around 6000 degrees fahrenheit that hydrogen-oxygen welding can achieve normally. Just out of interest, for those who aren't aware of it yet, note that hydrogen and oxygen straight from water in the correct ratio can boil tungsten, which requires over 10,000 degrees fahrenheit, and no one seems to know why it can do that. See: http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o.html Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 21:35:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA05179 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from corp.tig.com (corp.tig.com [198.178.129.31]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA05169 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from danny@localhost) by corp.tig.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id AAA03155; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:34:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:34:58 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Schmitt Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > You have a very good point Danny, however, you must remember the size of > an electric DC motor that coud produce 100 horespower. It would take > literally kilowatts of power to run per hour. So by converting an old > reciprocatiung engine to a H2O2 engine, you keep the horespower. So then, the problem is really one of storage. It might be easier to store your energy as seperated oxygen and hydrogen than in a battery. Maybe this system could be used in conjunction with a solar panel, as an alternative to the DC motor & storage cell approach. > In regards to power; splitting the molecules, andthen keeping them cool > would at first be an expensive thought, however think of how much would > be saved in oil, ecological damage (less oil needed in the tankers), and > mining expenses, far outweight the costs in electricity. However if a > true H2O2 car were developed by say GM, mass prodiced, and the stations > mass produced, the cost would inevetably come down due to mass production. Oh yeah! Anything's better than the current system! Infernal combustion engines! :) l8z, -Danny "Every jumbled pile of person has a | Daniel Schmitt thinking part that wonders what the | part that isn't thinking isn't | A1200/10megs RAM/'030 Soon! thinking of." --TMBG | AMIGA - Back for the future! From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 21:48:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA07056 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from corp.tig.com (corp.tig.com [198.178.129.31]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA07042 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from danny@localhost) by corp.tig.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id AAA03210; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:48:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:48:00 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Schmitt Subject: Re: fnrg: Radiometers To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > I went through this controversy long ago. Radiometers are often wrongly > thought to be run by light pressure. But they will only run in a partial > vacuum, and stop moving if placed in a really "hard" vacuum. There is a > paper from early this century which points out that the true explanation > involves lateral motion of gases along the painted surfaces, with > unbalanced motion leading to thrusting forces when the two colors of > paint are at different temperatures. I don't quite visualize this, it > might mean that there are sheet-jets of gas being launched from the edges > of the little diamonds. Makes sense. I thought I remembered it being something fairly simple. Thanks for clarifying that! > Put your radiometer in a refridgerator and it will run backwards for a > short while. Or heat it up with a nearby spotlight, then when you turn > off the light it will run backwards. Or, when it is at room temperature > and has stopped, hold it so it "sees" a cold winter scene out a large > window, and it will run backwards slowly. I'll have to play around with it. l8z, -Danny From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 06:01:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA23164 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA23150 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id IAA01495 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:48:22 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA819477721 Wed, 20 Dec 95 08:42:01 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 08:42:01 From: "reim" Encoding: 373 Text Message-Id: <9511208194.AA819477721@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: fnrg: EEM and IC Master online Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: EEM and the IC Master will now be on line. The WEB page is at http://eemonline.com Its there now but it is still under construction. It officially will not be open until January so all you can do now it look at it. I don't know what they will allow you to search or if they might require a fee but it doesn't sound like it. bob reim reim@advantor.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 06:18:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA25405 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA25395 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id JAA02982 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:08:31 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA819478923 Wed, 20 Dec 95 09:02:03 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 09:02:03 From: "reim" Encoding: 1258 Text Message-Id: <9511208194.AA819478923@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What do you mean the gasses won't escape because there are heavier than air. The gasses will mix with the air and also since when is hydrogen heavier than air. reim@advantor.com you wrote: Now, put some test tubes over the conductive poles (make a liuttlle wire holder so they don't touch the bottom of the conducive poles, but do cover them). Then turn on the juice. When the poles start to bubble you'll be seeing the electrolosys in action! Then take the tubes, when they're full (you'll see them full because the water will be pushed out) and voilla! you have one tube of O2 and one tube of H2. You can turn them upright because they're heavier than air and the gas won't escape. Just don't spark them... That's the labratory way to do it... Hope I was of help Wolf > _________________________________ > > Any emails from slim, sexy women > who want a good time, appreciated > _________________________________ I Need a tag line like that :-) [but I think the wife would mind] Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 02:41:11 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA06218 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 02:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA06195 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 02:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from t34.dialup.peg.apc.org (t34.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.162]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id VAA16214 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:37:31 +1000 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:37:31 +1000 Message-Id: <199512201137.VAA16214@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >>There have been some interesting developments in the field of projected >>thought. Remote Viewing is one aspect of this. One of the worlds leading >>remote viewers (an ex-US military intelligence officer)wrote a fascinating >>book about it. Its....MIND TREK by Joseph McGoneagle. He has managed to >>place his mind inside an atomic device at the point of detonation. He was >>featured on US television recently (also here in Australia) demonstrating >>how it works. Princeton University, the Monroe Institute and Stanford >>Research Institute (SRI) are all involved in it. Apparently anyone can be >>trained to do it. I have personally had considerable success with it. It's >>quite uncanny. >> >>Jim >> >Art Bell conducted a remote viewing experiment with his listeners last night. >He placed an object on his ham radio set in the room, and pictured it vividly >in his mind while looking at it, and asked his listeners to call in and try to >tell him what it was. > >One person came very close. Another one hit it to a degree of perfection, >having faxed him a drawing of it. It was a large clear marble that someone >had created for him, with his image inside it, sitting on a metal stand. The >fax was a drawing of exactly that. > >Other people called describing other objects in their house instead of the >one targeted. Bad aim. > >[Art Bell can be heard on some 200 radio stations around the U.S., and outside >the U.S. also, from 11 pm to 4 am Pacific time. He also has a special program >on Sunday evening at 7 pm called "Dreamland" to cover the more farout subjects.] > >Gary Hawkins > Thanks Gary...yes ....I've heard of Art Bell but we can't get him easily out here in Australia. It's taken me 12 months of constant practice to even get some degree of accuracy in Remote Viewing. I'm going to the Monroe Institute in the States early next year to clarify the process. My impression is that virtually anyone can learn it ...its inherent in all of us as a remnant of a past ancestoral survival ability. De-Jevu and daydreaming are the only left-overs of this natural ability we have in our hi-tech age. Both of these are anomalies...they serve no useful purpose whatsoever. Oddly enough like most other people I'd never heard of it until about 2 years ago...then I thought I was being "put on". And the interesting thing is that the first time I tried it..it worked brilliantly. This "novice effect" is common in beginners. I actually RVed a bank of slot machines in a Macau Casino (outside Hong Kong) and clearly saw a crowd of people around me. I also saw the curved shape of the machines..the 4 concrete pillars outside...the glass showcases in the entrance hall...the trees outside...and the view of the harbour and the bridge from the front steps. There were also a lot of other small details which I won't bore you with. The only problem....I was viewing this from my bedroom in Australia....I had never been to Hong Kong but was going there a week later. I won't even start to describe my feelings when I got there and found virtually everything as RVed. I recall going somewhat white and shaking slightly. And yes .......I won $6000 on a small jackpot. The crown gathered around! There are other incidents like this.....I RVed a specific shop in Hong Kong which sold alpha/theta machines. I found the shop ok but was interested to note that my "pictures" were mirror imaged. The mind-machine was on a shelf on the right of the entrance doorway...not the left. The result of that particular experience was that I tracked down the manufacturer and acquired the Australian agency for the machine. As the editor of a national business newsletter in Oz I find it all quite unbelievable but am quite happy to use the technique for business and personal advantage. I actually wrote an instructional report about RVing and sent it out to my subscriber list...with some trepidition. The response from my "sane" hardheaded clients was startling....they all wanted to know more about it. It's a strange world ....nothing is what it seems! Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 05:43:19 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA21159 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 05:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bogo.co.uk (root@mail.bogo.co.uk [193.112.164.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA21144 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 05:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.bogo.co.uk (darc.bogo.co.uk [194.193.88.133]) by mail.bogo.co.uk (8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA07951 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:42:37 GMT Message-ID: <30D8132A.1E16@mail.bogo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:44:10 +0000 From: "Guile D'Arc" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b2 (Windows; I; 32bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Free Energy ListServe Subject: fnrg: RE: Corrections to previous Mssg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Please excuse the error from question 2 last night (I was up late ;) ) It should have read as follows : 2) Does the "rule of nines" apply in his resonating effect? Thanks once more, Guile D'Arc darc@mail.bogo.co.uk From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 07:51:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA10299 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ddi.digital.net (ddi.digital.net [198.69.104.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA10239 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.69.104.94] (pm7_26.digital.net [198.69.104.94]) by ddi.digital.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03765 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:47:02 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:47:30 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: tilleyrw@digital.net (Robert Tilley) Subject: fnrg: How is H2O2 used? Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> You have a very good point Danny, however, you must remember the size of >> an electric DC motor that coud produce 100 horespower. It would take >> literally kilowatts of power to run per hour. So by converting an old >> reciprocatiung engine to a H2O2 engine, you keep the horespower. How would an engine fueled by H2O2 work? I understand how H2O would be eletrolyzed into H2 and O2 (2H2O --> 2H2 + O2) but how does H2O2 work? Through a similar process? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, | | and why. Then do it." -- Lazarus Long | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Robert Tilley * tilleyrw@digital.net * "Once upon a time..." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | *** --- *** --- http://ddi.digital.net/~tilleyrw --- *** --- *** | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:25:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA25110 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA24997 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dal36.fastlane.net (dal36.fastlane.net [204.251.16.136]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA03049 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:05:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199512201805.MAA03049@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:06:09 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: fnrg: Solid state coils revisited X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I found a reference on Bill's page to a solid state Tesla coil design which is supposed to be in the Oct '88 Hands-on Electronics, Vol 5 #10. I visited the downtown library here in Dallas, and they do not have this periodical. If any of you on this listserv have this mag., I'd be most appreciative if you'd contact me. I'm having very little luck working with Duane Byland's coil design, and I am looking for a good alternative design. I'm looking for a solid state coil design with a maximum discharge of about 3 inches into free air. Thanks - Bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:56:01 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA25048 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA24908 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA03050; Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:04:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:04:17 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512200837.AAA25987@mail.eskimo.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Gary Hawkins wrote: > Hey there! Ho! Whoa partner... > > At 09:53 PM 12/19/95 -0500, you wrote: > > It's relative I suppose, but it only takes about one and a half volts > to break up water. Yes, this is correct, however here people are looking at this process on a non-labratory setting. If you used only a hundred volts, the process would be so slow that it would take forever to get enough gas to fill a tank, especially if you're going to be cryogenating the liquid > AC works too, just not as well. I think you mean don't just hook up wires > from a wall outlet. But if you use a stepdown transformer or variac, AC > will also split water, just not as efficiently as DC. Hey, gimie a break... I read it in a high-school textbook :-) > Heaven help us. H2 will run out of the test tube if you hold it upright. It's > lighter than air. Really? In all the tests I've ran with splitting the molecules, i've never had it escape (unless the ventalation system was on in the lab) > And miss the fun? Holding the H2 test tube upside down, light a match and > hold it near. It produces a nifty popping sound, and is better than a > scary movie to frighten the gespleebers out of everybody. I have done that in a labratory setting, it is a neat hollow popping sound simmillar to a flute blowing at high pitch... but if you are producing it in large quantities, the test tube would be replaced by a hose to a tank probbably... > There's no substitute for real experience. How true... Like driving a car, if you read al the books, it's still different than really driving... P.S. I worked splitting molecules in a commercial ssetting for three years with Skyward, their setup used about 500kv and a huge vat to split molecules for use in the aerospace industry Skyward Aerospace Specializing in sales, service and graphic design (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:34:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA26029 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA25823 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA03889; Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:10:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:10:28 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <9511208194.AA819478923@irout.advantor.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, reim wrote: > > What do you mean the gasses won't escape because there are heavier > than air. The gasses will mix with the air and also since when is > hydrogen heavier than air. > > reim@advantor.com You're right... What was I thinking... Although the last time I preformed that in a small lab setting I did infact not have it escape... That was my mistake, PUBLIC APOLOGY... However, I did recive a letter from someone who mentioned that there was no need to carry oxygen in a hydrogen powered car, after thinking about it for a while, even though the combustion rate would not be as high, it would work... In that case, converting a reciprocating engine to a hydrogen engine would be fairly easy.. Although I am by no means a mechanic, I would assume you would probbably maybe just pump hydrogen where the old gasoling used to go... That's just a guess... If that were possible, the people who are interested in making hydrogen cars have a lot less work to do then they thought! P.S. on a semi-related topic, a guy called Bruce McBurney has an invention called a super-carborator, which allows you to get 100 miles per gallon with no exhaust. I beilive he has a web page. his company is called HiMac research.. http://www.inett.com/himac I've spoken to him voice, and my wife's company is publishing his book called "How to get 100 miles to the gallon of gasoline"... his invention seems promising Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:27:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA26638 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA26498 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA04226; Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:12:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:12:37 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: How is H2O2 used? To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Robert Tilley wrote: > How would an engine fueled by H2O2 work? I understand how H2O would be > eletrolyzed into H2 and O2 (2H2O --> 2H2 + O2) but how does H2O2 work? > Through a similar process? Really I don't know why they call it H2O2 because I guess Oxygen is just O. However in most of the technical manuals for Hydrogen/Oxygen engines, they are called H2O2 engines... there is probbably no scientific menaing behind it... Probbably someone here would know more about that... Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:58:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA27960 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA27854 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:25:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tSSGG-001W0mC; Wed, 20 Dec 95 11:25 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: "It Runs on Water" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:25:02 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi folks. Here's some messages from one of the internet newsgroups, regarding a TV show called "It Runs on Water". The show aired recently in the UK and was all about free energy. The idea of zero point energy was prominently featured. Can you imagine actually seeing this subject discussed on TV? Next thing you know, some people might get the new fangled idea that they no longer have to pay outrageous utility bills. Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) ===================================================================== From: nrouse@surface.fisons.co.uk (Nick Rouse) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: "it runs on water" TV program Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:22:51 UNDEFINED Organization: Fisons The TV program in which Tom Droge appeared and which he mentioned in this newsgroup earlier was broadcast on Channel 4 of British television on Sunday 17th Dec under the title "It runs on water" as part of its Equinox series. After a preamble by Arther C Clarkethe program was largely divided into three. The first part was about Griggs and his heat pumps with a sort of reconstuction of Tom Droge's visit to his factory in Rome Georgia, although it didn't say it was a reconstruction. Tom came to the conclusion that they were not conducting rigourous science and Griggs replied that he didn't claim to be a scientist. There were shots of the pumps and a pile of varied rotors. There were some shots of an installation in a fire department with someone from the department saying that they had measured the performance with certified instruments and were sure that it gave over 100% efficiency. There was then a short historical bit saying that such claims were not new and mentioned Tesla's explosive surge in a giant Tesla coil and his belief in a universal sea of energy. There was also mention of a Russian worker who's name I have not remembered who could light up a string of light bulbs by using a high frequency pulsed supply who's mean power he claimed was much less than that required to light the bulbs. The second main section was about Meyer (is that how spell it?) and his 'cracking' of water with a pulsed current at greater than 100% efficiency. Much was made of his secrecy and his claims that NASA and other government departments were investigating his work but were not prepared to admit it. He claimed to have been offered a billion dollars to abandon his work. They showed a car with an engine powered by the hydrogen from his cracker but did not show it working or even say if it had ever worked. The third part was about Patterson and Craven's work on electrolytic cells. They mentioned output powers of up to 10's of times input powers so presumably that part of the progam was made before the recent demo's. Tom Droge mentioned the 'angle' of scientists against engineers. I did not think it was so much about scientists and engineers as about established scientits and inventors who did not think and express themselves in the way that scientists are used to. Mention was also made of the fear of many scientists of being tainted with 'quackey' by even considering such claims. I did not find it that unreasonable a view of the very substantial but not impossible barrier that unconventional claims have. The most bizzare 'angle' however was not mentioning cold fusion. Neither the words nor any hint of a possible nuclear mechanism was mentioned. Nor was there any mention of P & F or any of the other investigators of electolysis techniques. Only zero point energy was mentioned as a possible explanation and the supposed key to this was the use of high frequency high amplitude pulses. There was even the statement that electolysis first began to show real gains in efficiency when pulsed currents were used. Perhaps the program makers felt that they would be allowed to make and show the program if they mentioned the forbidden words cold fusion. It certainly gave a very odd view of the work for anybody who has been following this newsgroup. But at least I have learned how to pronounce Tom Droge's name. Nick Rouse From: "Alan M. Dunsmuir" Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: It Runs on Water Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 05:53:16 +0100 Organization: Home The TV programme went out in the UK (Channel 4) yesterday evening, and turned out to be a 60-minute commercial for anti-science, chaired and clearly moderated by an academic with an unpronouncable name (Czck?) who rpesumably is better known to the US-based members of the NewsGroup than to me. It starred, in more or less equal parts, Messrs Meyers, Griggs and Patterson/Craven and featured Tom Droege in a cameo role as a representative of the blundering, blinckered 'scientific establishment' (the bad guys) who hadn't known what to look for when he visited Rome and who failed to realise why the 'inventors' (the good guys) needed to keep hidden what they were doing. (Why this secrecy needed to be maintained whilst they simultaneously had been filing patents left, right and centre was left unexplained.) The three sections were linked by the repeated chanting of the mantra 'zero point energy' - which itself was presented as a universally-accepted valid energy source, the only remaining problem in tapping it being the practical one of how it could be 'got out' - and the phrase 'cold fusion' was totally absent from the script. If that is what the proponents really think, stories about their various scams and fantasies have no place on this NewsGroup, whose charter makes it exclusively for discussions about cold fusion, which in turn suggests that it is just about time to wind it up, since nobody, other than Jed, seems to be wanting to talk about that any more. -- Alan M. Dunsmuir [@ his wits end] (Can't even quote poetry right) From: malcolm@pigsty.demon.co.uk (Malcolm McMahon) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Re: It Runs on Water Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:52:35 GMT On Mon, 18 Dec 1995 05:53:16 +0100, "Alan M. Dunsmuir" wrote: >If that is what the proponents really think, stories about their various >scams and fantasies have no place on this NewsGroup, whose charter makes it >exclusively for discussions about cold fusion, which in turn suggests that >it is just about time to wind it up, since nobody, other than Jed, seems to >be wanting to talk about that any more. > I think the truth is that these inventors simply _don't care_ what the source of the excess energy they are measuring is. These people don't think like scientists (If they did they'd probably never have tried these things). So if you say it might be Cold fusion they'll shrug and say "OK, if you like." and the same for zero point energy. They are happy to get along without a theory. They just try a change in one direction, a change somewhere else and see what gives better figures. This seems to be the only thing that makes the recent "Cold Fusion" new. The people who stumbled across the effect for once _were_ scientists and therefore couldn't begin to believe their readings until they had a theory within the parameters of current physical thinking. It _had_ to be fusion because they could think if nothing else that might explain their results. AFAIK there's no actual positive evidence. It's a Holmesian thing. When you have eliminated the impossible what you have left, however improbable, must be the truth. ---------------------------------+---------------------------------- I was born weird: This terrible | Like Pavlov's dogs we are trained compulsion to behave normally is | to salivate at the sound of the the result of childhood trauma. | liberty bell. ---------------------------------+---------------------------------- Malcolm From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 09:46:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA01363 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA00939 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:42:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA07567; Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:39:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:39:02 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: fnrg: Hydrogen and Oxygen Splitting To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Cc: bmcburne@freenet.npiec.on.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I would like to tell everyone, That Hydrogen Oxygen splitting is not my field, I have done some work with it, however the stuff I know may not be correct. I admit that some of the information (hydrogen heviar than air, etc) was incorrect. At any rate, I recived a letter from someone (I forget who) sstating that it may not be neccary to include Oxygen in the Hydrogen powered car. After doing some thinking, he is probbably right. Being as this car would not be functioning in a vacume, it would be sutablle to just use hydrogen to power the car, and use air instead of oxygen. The combustion ratio would not be as high, however it would be compensated for by the money saved to have two seprate cooling tanks, and of course the labour to produce it. If we were to ssay (in theory) attempt to convert a reciprocating engine to use hydrogen instead of gas, it would probbably be somewhat easier. Although I am not a mechanic, and I have no idea about the way a car engine works, it might be as simple as putting a new tank with the cooling unit, and preheater, then piping the hydrogen through what used to be the feul line... you probbably wouldn't even need a feul filter because the hydrogen would be relivily pure... Hmmm, anyone care to elaborate? (Bruce, You're a mechanic, what do you think?) Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 09:52:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA02233 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from compumedia.com (galadriel.compumedia.com [199.242.25.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02214 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp219.compumedia.com by compumedia.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #7) id m0tSSch-0007RkC; Wed, 20 Dec 95 09:48 PST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 09:48 PST X-Sender: skot@compumedia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker) Subject: fnrg: Re: Mineshaft bobs Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've just skimmed through the thread concerning the mineshaft bobs. I heard the story a year ago and thought about it and an idea came to me that could explain ( and I think does ) how the result of the experiment can happen with normal gravity ( as it's commomly understood ). Consider one shaft and one bob. With the bob support in the center of a symmetrical shaft that goes straight down, according to conventional thinking the bob would stay centered and point toward the center of the earth. Okay, now dig a second shaft. As this is done, a few hundred tons of earth are removed. The gravitational attraction ( normal ) between the rope/bob and the earth removed is no longer there. So the earth that is still there on the other side of the original shaft will pull the bob in that direction. I had done some calculation and the g force necessary to pull a mile long bob two inches to the side was something like .000001 g's. I don't know how to calculate the g force from the earth removed but I think that it is in the ballpark. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 09:52:53 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA02307 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02271 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:51:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by utdallas.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) id LAA14023; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:50:55 -0600 Received: from infoserv.utdallas.edu by utdallas.edu (Brelay v6.01) with BLIMP; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:50:55 CST Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:50:54 -0600 (CST) From: Chuck Knight To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Wolfgang Starchild wrote: > > If you put a generator on the engine, you loose yet more power. Hydrogen > > might be used to drive cars, but you'd pump the hydrogen into the car in a > > cryogenic state, and not produce it on board. We need an external solar > > powered electrolisis and cryogenics plant to feed these cars properly. > > Well, at least it woudn't damage the environment now would it? Well, storage of the hydrogen *is* one of the major problems with its implementation. People have considered cryogenic storage, but it has its problems. "highway hindenburg" is a nickname that comes to mind. Metal hydrides solve *that* problem, but require heating to release the hydrogen stored within them. > > Any why carry all the oxygen around anyway, it's available anywhere I > > drive. > > It is possible to take air from the atmosphere to foster the hydrogen > combustion, however oxygen is pure... air is not. the air may have > additives in it which would decrease efficency Hydrogen is combustible in ratios from 4% to 74% in air (well, those ratios are at least relaively close to correct) and the energy thus released could drive a car. Down side, air has a large amount of nitrogen in it...you end up with noxious nitrogen compounds burning this stuff. A pure oxygen source will allow you to burn it into water...and only the residues from the lubricants in the oils will produce anything unpleasant...but *VERY* little of them. > > I think the collision damage potential will keep cryogenic hydrogen out of > > cars for quite some time. It's probably safer and easier to go solar > > electric. > > You have the same collision potential with say one of those chevy trucks > that explode if they're hit in the side... plus the storage tanks would > have to have so much insullation that they would absorb the brunt of the > impact. Plus, hydrogen is lighter than air. If released, and ignited, the flame will lift away from the car, and above the people. Trivia: Most of the burns from the Hindenburg disaster were from burning diesel oil Anyway, the cryogenic tanks are so heavily insulated and stong that there is probably less chance of damaging them in a collision. But, regardless, this is one of the reasons why "hydrogen on demand" from electrolysis is so attractive...water is a very nice way to store hydrogen. -- Chuck Knight From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 16:46:49 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA17063 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA16945 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dal32.fastlane.net (dal32.fastlane.net [204.251.16.132]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA26439 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:13:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199512202013.OAA26439@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:14:57 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Mineshaft bobs X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I've just skimmed through the thread concerning the mineshaft bobs. >I heard the story a year ago and thought about it and an idea came >to me that could explain ( and I think does ) how the result of the >experiment can happen with normal gravity ( as it's commomly >understood ). > >Consider one shaft and one bob. > >With the bob support in the center of a symmetrical shaft that goes >straight down, according to conventional thinking the bob would stay >centered and point toward the center of the earth. > >Okay, now dig a second shaft. As this is done, a few hundred tons of >earth are removed. The gravitational attraction ( normal ) between >the rope/bob and the earth removed is no longer there. So the earth >that is still there on the other side of the original shaft will pull >the bob in that direction. > >I had done some calculation and the g force necessary to pull a mile >long bob two inches to the side was something like .000001 g's. > >I don't know how to calculate the g force from the earth removed but >I think that it is in the ballpark. > I don't have the original article on the plumb bobs before me, but as I recall the two mine shafts were approximately the same distance apart as they were deep. Assuming the shafts were one mile deep and one mile apart, wouldn't the millions or hundreds of millions of tons of rock between the two shafts make the miserly few hundred tons of missing rock appear to be completely insignificant? I don't think the plumb bobs are going to detect the missing rock in the far shaft because of the gigantic intervening mass of rock 1 mile thick between them. It would be like trying to detect whether or not a friend was pushing against the far side of the Empire State building...sure it's theoretically possible, but the amount of push versus the amount of mass makes the amount of movement immeasurable. (and guys, I don't need a lecture on interferometry, here! :) ) From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 11:25:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA18163 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA18149 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dal32.fastlane.net (dal32.fastlane.net [204.251.16.132]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA27759 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:20:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199512202020.OAA27759@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:21:20 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Wolfgang Starchild wrote: > >> > If you put a generator on the engine, you loose yet more power. Hydrogen >> > might be used to drive cars, but you'd pump the hydrogen into the car in a >> > cryogenic state, and not produce it on board. We need an external solar >> > powered electrolisis and cryogenics plant to feed these cars properly. >> >> Well, at least it woudn't damage the environment now would it? > >Well, storage of the hydrogen *is* one of the major problems with its >implementation. People have considered cryogenic storage, but it has its >problems. "highway hindenburg" is a nickname that comes to mind. Metal >hydrides solve *that* problem, but require heating to release the >hydrogen stored within them. > >> > Any why carry all the oxygen around anyway, it's available anywhere I >> > drive. >> >> It is possible to take air from the atmosphere to foster the hydrogen >> combustion, however oxygen is pure... air is not. the air may have >> additives in it which would decrease efficency > >Hydrogen is combustible in ratios from 4% to 74% in air (well, those >ratios are at least relaively close to correct) and the energy thus >released could drive a car. Down side, air has a large amount of >nitrogen in it...you end up with noxious nitrogen compounds burning this >stuff. > >A pure oxygen source will allow you to burn it into water...and only the >residues from the lubricants in the oils will produce anything >unpleasant...but *VERY* little of them. > >> > I think the collision damage potential will keep cryogenic hydrogen out of >> > cars for quite some time. It's probably safer and easier to go solar >> > electric. >> >> You have the same collision potential with say one of those chevy trucks >> that explode if they're hit in the side... plus the storage tanks would >> have to have so much insullation that they would absorb the brunt of the >> impact. > >Plus, hydrogen is lighter than air. If released, and ignited, the flame >will lift away from the car, and above the people. Trivia: Most of the >burns from the Hindenburg disaster were from burning diesel oil > >Anyway, the cryogenic tanks are so heavily insulated and stong that there >is probably less chance of damaging them in a collision. But, >regardless, this is one of the reasons why "hydrogen on demand" from >electrolysis is so attractive...water is a very nice way to store hydrogen. > > -- Chuck Knight One other problem in using hydrogen as fuel in standard reciprocating engines is "hydrogen enbrittlment" of the metal of the cylinder walls, valves and pistons. The metals combine with the hydrogen at the high temperatures of combustion, and become almost as brittle as glass; not a good thing in an engine where the fuel is exploding in the cylinders several hundred times a minute! This can be controlled by careful metering of the gas/oxygen ration, but it's still a major problem. Also, hydrogen burns at phenomenally high temperatures, it would be very difficult to keep the valves from burning away (oxy/hydrogen torches are the hottest welding source I know of, excepting plasma torches). From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 04:20:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA10831 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 04:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kaos.deepcove.com (kaos.deepcove.com [206.12.208.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA10746 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 04:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepcove.com by Kaos.deepcove.com; Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:14 PST Received: by deepcove.com id A5988wk Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:11:38 From: greg.birdsall@deepcove.com Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <9512201911.A5988wk@deepcove.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:11:38 Subject: fnrg: thought speed To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well it looks like there is some interest and experience with thought as a medium of communication at a distance. This started out in response to how a scalar field (whatever that is) propagates and what happens when a rotating magnetic field exceeds the speed of light. Clearly there is still a lot to be discovered and understood. Perhaps thought travels over a medium, as yet not understood scientifically, something like scalar field. A psychic friend of mine years ago while in a trance described to me how his brain produced very low level high frequency signals (in the megaherz range) which acted as a sort of carrier for his ESP abilities. Perhaps thought effects a scalar field through some medium. Who knows. Just a few ideas. greg.birdsall@deepcove.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 04:20:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA10751 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 04:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kaos.deepcove.com (kaos.deepcove.com [206.12.208.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA10744 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 04:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepcove.com by Kaos.deepcove.com; Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:19 PST Received: by deepcove.com id A5996wk Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:16:02 From: greg.birdsall@deepcove.com Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <9512201916.A5996wk@deepcove.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:16:02 Subject: fnrg: RE: FNRG: PROPULSION To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: By the way there is a prototype bus running around Vancouver that runs on hydrogen-air fuel cells. greg.birdsall@deepcove.com From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 12:16:12 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA27751 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from piltdown.phantom.com (piltdown.phantom.com [198.67.3.23]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27737 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.183.52.80] ([204.183.52.80]) by piltdown.phantom.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA20483 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:15:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:15:13 -0500 X-Sender: kgo@mailhost.phantom.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: kgo@phantom.com (Kevin G. O'Neill) Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the possibility >of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would happen >is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our dimension. >One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. >This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. >Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com EXCELLENT, GREG. This has ACTUALLY happened to me. Simultaneous(it appeared) shared knowledge of specific events over substantial distance. I never have figured out how to verify any of it "scientifically," but it was true for me and a friend so we suspect it must be true for all people (and perhaps all life forms?). Sig: Kevin O'Neill/Image Axis,Inc/NY,NY/kgo@phantom.com/212.989.5000 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 13:13:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA07893 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ddi.digital.net (ddi.digital.net [198.69.104.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA07872 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.69.104.154] (pm4_22.digital.net [198.69.104.154]) by ddi.digital.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA19813 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:09:31 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:10:02 -0500 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: tilleyrw@digital.net (Robert Tilley) Subject: Re: fnrg: Hydrogen and Oxygen Splitting Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On this subject, there is a file on the Keelynet BBS that speaks of something similar. The gist of the file is that you insert a water bottle before the air intake of an engine. The bottle has an opening at the top and the outlet is on the side of the top (at the edge). A pipe extends from the top opening almost to the bottom of the bottle. This way, air is sucked through the top opening, down the pipe and though the water, then out the side. The passage through the water is supposed to "enrich" the air with small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen. Another version is to put metal plates inside the bottle, connect them to the car's battery, and have them electrolyze the water. I don't know what this would add to a car's performance in terms of fuel efficiency. Any comments on what I've spoken of here? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, | | and why. Then do it." -- Lazarus Long | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Robert Tilley * tilleyrw@digital.net * "Once upon a time..." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | *** --- *** --- http://ddi.digital.net/~tilleyrw --- *** --- *** | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 13:55:02 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA15145 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA15100 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA11833; Wed, 20 Dec 95 16:50:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:50:12 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512202020.OAA27759@fastlane.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Bert Pool wrote: > One other problem in using hydrogen as fuel in standard reciprocating > engines is "hydrogen enbrittlment" of the metal of the cylinder walls, > valves and pistons. The metals combine with the hydrogen at the high > temperatures of combustion, and become almost as brittle as glass; not a > good thing in an engine where the fuel is exploding in the cylinders several > hundred times a minute! This can be controlled by careful metering of the > gas/oxygen ration, but it's still a major problem. Also, hydrogen burns at > phenomenally high temperatures, it would be very difficult to keep the > valves from burning away (oxy/hydrogen torches are the hottest welding > source I know of, excepting plasma torches). Hmmm, You're right. There would probbably be no possible way to convert an existing engine. A full new engine block would be needed of higher-temprature ssteel, costing higher monies :-) Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 13:38:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA12288 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA12261 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from t2.dialup.peg.apc.org (t2.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.130]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id IAA13962 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:37:39 +1000 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:37:39 +1000 Message-Id: <199512202237.IAA13962@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the possibility >>of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would happen >>is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our dimension. >>One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. >>This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. >>Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com > >EXCELLENT, GREG. This has ACTUALLY happened to me. Simultaneous(it >appeared) shared knowledge of specific events over substantial distance. I >never have figured out how to verify any of it "scientifically," but it was >true for me and a friend so we suspect it must be true for all people (and >perhaps all life forms?). > >Sig: Kevin O'Neill/Image Axis,Inc/NY,NY/kgo@phantom.com/212.989.5000 > Kevin...you might like to take a look at the concept of Subjective Communication and Rupert Sheldrakes Morphogentic Field. Shared communication concepts are explained in both these disclipines. The best overall coverage on Sub Comm is in a book : Silva Mastery of the 90's by Tag Powell from Top-of-the-Mountain publications Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 14:16:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA18652 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA18625 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from t2.dialup.peg.apc.org (t2.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.130]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id JAA22801 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:14:44 +1000 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:14:44 +1000 Message-Id: <199512202314.JAA22801@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: RE: FNRG: ROTATING FI Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >>Sig: Kevin O'Neill/Image Axis,Inc/NY,NY/kgo@phantom.com/212.989.5000 >> > > Kevin...you might like to take a look at the concept of Subjective >Communication and Rupert Sheldrakes Morphogentic Field. Shared communication >concepts are explained in both these disclipines. >The best overall coverage on Sub Comm is in a book : Silva Mastery of the >90's by Tag Powell from Top-of-the-Mountain publications > >Jim > Kevin...to save you time I can Em you a full report on Sub Comm. But your email address is unclear to me.. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 19:08:11 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA07868 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.hp.com (relay.hp.com [15.255.152.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA07850 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ptcmtl.montreal.hp.com (ptcmtl07.montreal.hp.com) by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA271645160; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:06:01 -0800 Received: by ptcmtl.montreal.hp.com (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA091094970; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:02:50 -0500 From: "Behdad Forghani" Message-Id: <9512202202.ZM9107@ptcmtl07.montreal.hp.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:02:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: Gary Hawkins "Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd)" (Dec 20, 12:07pm) References: <199512202008.MAA26664@mail.eskimo.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Dec 20, 12:07pm, Gary Hawkins wrote: > I believe it is around 6000 degrees fahrenheit that hydrogen-oxygen > welding can achieve normally. Just out of interest, for those who > aren't aware of it yet, note that hydrogen and oxygen straight from > water in the correct ratio can boil tungsten, which requires over > 10,000 degrees fahrenheit, and no one seems to know why it can > do that. See: > > http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o.html > > Gary Hawkins Could this be cold (well, warm) fusion? Is 6000 degrees farenheit and some catalastic mechanism make hydrogen atoms to fuse? After all, there are a lot of hydrogen atoms around a hydrogen welding setup. BTW, this is my first post. I guess an introduction is in order. I am an electronics engineer working as software engineer at Hewlett Packard. Regards, Behdad Forghani -- Behdad Forghani -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Protocol Test Centre (Hewlett-Packard) e-mail: | 3333 Place Cavendish, Suite 501 phone # : 514-856-6706 | St-Laurent, Quebec fax # : 514-856-6659 | H4M 2X6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________ / \ \ ' / / \ \ /| / / \ ' | \ / \ | Made of 100% .______.\ / ' | / recycled electrons \ | \' .'_______|/ \ /`. | / \ / \ | \ \ / /\ | \ \ / / `| \ \ / / /| \ / \___/___________ / |__________\__/ \ |/ | / \ |\ | / \_____________| \ |__________/ \| From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 19:45:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA13994 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (root@clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA13983 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA21322; Wed, 20 Dec 95 22:45:16 EST Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 22:45:16 EST Message-Id: <9512210345.AA21322@clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Mineshaft bobs X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Becker said: >I've just skimmed through the thread concerning the mineshaft bobs. >I heard the story a year ago and thought about it and an idea came >to me that could explain ( and I think does ) how the result of the >experiment can happen with normal gravity ( as it's commomly >understood ). > >Consider one shaft and one bob. > >With the bob support in the center of a symmetrical shaft that goes >straight down, according to conventional thinking the bob would stay >centered and point toward the center of the earth. > >Okay, now dig a second shaft. As this is done, a few hundred tons of >earth are removed. The gravitational attraction ( normal ) between >the rope/bob and the earth removed is no longer there. So the earth >that is still there on the other side of the original shaft will pull >the bob in that direction. > >I had done some calculation and the g force necessary to pull a mile >long bob two inches to the side was something like .000001 g's. > >I don't know how to calculate the g force from the earth removed but >I think that it is in the ballpark. > I understand what you are saying, and that possible explanation occurred to me as well. However, if you read the text of the accounts of the experiment, I believe the 2 shaft experiment was performed only after the effect was first noted in a single shaft (or at least that's the way I read it). The effect was first noted in a single shaft, although they don't say what the divergence was measured to be. I think it would be interesting to do this experiment again today, perhaps using synthetic pendulum supporting cables like nylon or kevlar (something non-ferrous and strong enough so hold a small pendulum at great distances). You could likely do the test in a single shaft, maybe even support 2 much smaller pendulums from a common point. However, does anyone have some hard proof (copy of the alleged article that appeared in the Milwaukee Sentinel) that this experiment was performed? I would want to see that before running off and talking to the people at Inco about renting one of their mineshafts for a day ;-) I sent a letter of to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (those 2 papers merged in '95) to see if they could verify the story. I'll let know what they say. regards Gary From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 19:46:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA14124 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA14097 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA16977 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:52:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:52:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199512210352.WAA16977@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: More hot air. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some thoughts.... 1) Well, traffic seems to be increasing on this listserver. 2) The turf, as it were, is being chewed. 3) Ok, some answers then. H2O2 is called so for the simple reason that light elements are not stable in the monoatomic form. Hence, the diatomic O2. Burning H2O2 in an engine is perfectly feasable; it's been done for years. The trick is to take some of the exhaust water vapor and mix it into the gas stream as it enters the cylinder. This cools the flame, which otherwise destroys the cylinder and generates NOx. And it's usually just hydrogen gas and air, nobody would bother with pure oxygen. But really, burning the gas is like pissing into the wind, you're using the same mindset that brought us the incredibly inefficient infernal combustion engine. 4) A fuel cell is a device which simply combines hydrogen and oxygen gas, creating current. For those who care to do and not talk, stick two stainless steel electrodes in a beaker of lye ( maybe 10% ) and pass current from electrode to electrode. The potential drop across the electrodes will be roughly 2 volts, 1.23 volts being the 100% efficiency point. Now, disconnect the current supply, and hey, there's still a potential there. Now, short the electrodes through a resistor ( say 100 ohms ) and watch the potential slowly decrease. That's from the gases recombining at the electrodes. This is a crude fuel cell. To learn more about this exciting subject, please read J Bockris on electrochemistry, a prolific author with enormous presense in the field. 5) By the way, metal hydride technology is problematic for hydrogen storage, best thing now is activated carbon. 6) Wolf writes "Yes, this is correct, however here people are looking at this process on a non-labratory setting. If you used only a hundred volts, the process would be so slow that it would take forever to get enough gas to fill a tank, especially if you're going to be cryogenating the liquid" What are you talking about? 7) There is a direct relation between the amount of charge passed and the gas produced. AC, transferring zero net charge, is next to useless. Why? well, would it suprise you that the capacity of a pair of 1 cm^2 plates in lye amounts to several microfarads? Even at 60 cycles, this is a lot of capacity to charge before the potential exceeds 1.23 volts. 8) The reason that H2O2 flame can vaporise tungsten is that the flame contains both monoatomic oxygen and hydrogen, created briefly by the combustion process. These atoms are tremendously reactive, combining chemically with the tungsten and aiding vaporization. The flame temperature itself is not that hot ( of course that's relative ). Well, enough of that then... K. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 19:56:45 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA15733 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnct.com (root@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA15706 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from @cnct.com (knagel@cnct.com [165.254.118.51]) by cnct.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA18361 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:03:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:03:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199512210403.XAA18361@cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel@cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: knagel@cnct.com (Keith Nagel) Subject: fnrg: More phase stuff Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I swore I would not post on this again, but... C. Hope writes "The question still remains "where does the energy go when they reach zero strength simultaneously?" I refer to Halliday and Resnick (3rd edition), Electromagnetic Fields by Wangsness (2nd ed), Feynman Lectures, and Principles of Electrodynamics by Schwartz. Only this last book comes close to giving a satisfactory answer to the question. But it does so in terms of retarded potentials, which is a totally different way of seeing things, and I give myself about 2 weeks to come to true understanding of this." Look at the poynting vector, which is the cross product of E & B. Note it has a zero value at the zero crossing. Consider that the energy, equally divided between the magnetic and electric fields, is also zero ( for example, magnetic energy is 1/2 * mu * B^2, which is zero if B is zero ). What's so mysterious about this? K. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 17:49:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA24478 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA24454 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from t43.dialup.peg.apc.org (t43.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.171]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id MAA12361 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:48:30 +1000 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:48:30 +1000 Message-Id: <199512210248.MAA12361@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Hey, gimie a break... I read it in a high-school textbook :-) > >> Heaven help us. H2 will run out of the test tube if you hold it upright. It's >> lighter than air. > >Really? In all the tests I've ran with splitting the molecules, i've >never had it escape (unless the ventalation system was on in the lab) > >> And miss the fun? Holding the H2 test tube upside down, light a match and >> hold it near. It produces a nifty popping sound, and is better than a >> scary movie to frighten the gespleebers out of everybody. > >I have done that in a labratory setting, it is a neat hollow popping >sound simmillar to a flute blowing at high pitch... but if you are >producing it in large quantities, the test tube would be replaced by a >hose to a tank probbably... I uses to "pop" hydrogen in the science classes at school. It sort of produces the neat well-kown sound of two amoeba's mating..... From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 00:52:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA25716 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA25700 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:51:45 -0800 (PST) From: KGSurfer@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA09846 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 03:50:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 03:50:24 -0500 Message-ID: <951220234717_95978014@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Questions on resonance (Meyer) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I am new to this field so please excuse my lack of knowledge... >In the Meyer device he uses resonance to break the covalent bonds >in the H20 molecules. >1) Why does he polarize the molecule? > Would it not be enough to resonate the bonds? >2) Does the "rule of thirds" apply in his resonating effect? >3) Is this effect really one that displays over-unity? > Or is it a more efficient way to break the bonds? > (Genuine question not intended to be sceptical) My question is what frequency is he using to break the H-O bonds? Would it be the same frequency that a microwave uses to excite the H-O bonds in food? By the way, I don't understand how he could have a patent on this thing if all the facts aren't laid out on the table. Anybody got some answers? K. Seuferer From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 10:21:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA01058 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA01045 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id NAA03081 for magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:18:48 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by irout.advantor.com id AA819580354 Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:12:34 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:12:34 From: "reim" Encoding: 2690 Text Message-Id: <9511218195.AA819580354@irout.advantor.com> To: eskimo.com!freenrg-list@magicnet.magicnet.net Subject: Re[4]: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Bill for the extra comments on the safety issues of this experiment. I had to think twice before I sent it because it is a dangerous experiment. Only experience and competent people should try this reaction. But then again this experiment is no more dangerous than playing with a telsa coil or a 125 KV power supply. bob reim ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. Author: magicnet.magicnet.net!eskimo.com!freenrg-list at ~Internet Date: 12/21/95 12:12 PM And for those who don't get the point: The following experiment is extremely dangerous, and should only be attempted by experienced professionals. It is offered here for information only. If you experiment with bottles of lye and hydrogen, you do so entirely at your own risk. It would take an entire training course to communicate the skills needed to perform this experiment safely. If you get lye in your eyes you will probably cause permanent blindness. If you light a flame (or even a spark) near the hydrogen, you can explode the bottle and create a spray of glass and lye. A small exploding hydrogen balloon can burst your eardrums. There are even several ways you can kill yourself with the following experiment. On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, reim wrote: > for those who are interested in making hydrogen easy and fast try this. > back when I was in college I used to blow up balloons with hydrogen > and then light it with a match ( a match on a stick that is ) . > > Put Lye ( you can get it at a grocery store ) in a glass bottle ( about > 2 table spoons ) and pour some water in with it to get a slurry. At this > point the bottle will start to get hot. Then put SMALL strips of aluminum] > foil in the bottle and you will get instant hydrogen . CAUTION : This > reaction is fast and creates a LOT OF HEAT. You can get a explosion. When > I used to do this I would put the bottle in ice water to keep it cool and > prevent the bottle from breaking. Then I would put a small balloon over the > top of the bottle and the pressure would blow up the balloon in about > 30 seconds ( depending on how much aluminum you put in it ) Try this if > you like but be careful. > ....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 07:54:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA05737 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA05713 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA10773; Thu, 21 Dec 95 10:49:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:49:33 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Hydrogen and Oxygen Splitting (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's a message I thought all who are interested in hydrogen engines might benifit from. It was originally a personal message... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:22:19 From: Paul Lamb To: wstarchi@freenet Subject: Re: fnrg: Hydrogen and Oxygen Splitting You wrote: >and then piping the hydrogen through what used to be the fuel line... The existing fuel line could be used, but a few more controls would be needed. First, you would need a pressure regulator to insure a constant supply of fuel (constant pressure, constant volume for a given engine rotational speed). You would also need a device for mixing fuel and air (or oxygen) in specific proportions. Gasoline carburetors will not do, although fuel injectors might, provided they were calibrated for the specific gravity of the hydrogen. The BTU content of hydrogen is nowhere near as high as other fuels, which is why it never really caught a lot of interest during the 1970's when alternative fuels were seriously being explored with major funding and research for the first time. It would also be necessary to install a modified exhaust system. The nature of the beast with internal combustion engines is their high rotational speed. With the cylinders being charged with air/fuel mixture, igniting, and evacuating so rapidly, most fuels do not have time to completely burn. When the exhaust valve opens, the remaining fuel/air leaves with an explosive "pop". This is why mufflers/sound supressors are needed. Now, the exhaust of H2O2 being water, an expensive non-corroding material is needed. I would hazard to guess stainless steel. I would attempt to utilize heat rather than merely dumping it to ambient, so I would make use of an economizer to preheat the fuel. That is, unless no preheating is desired. The efficiency of these types of engines relies heavily on the density of the combustible mixture. It is essential to remember that the engine does not run on hydrogen. It runs on air or oxygen. The fuel is used to heat the air and make it expand. So, the upshot of all this is, that in order to increase the power of the engine, you would need to increase the amount of air/fuel going into the cylinder during each charging stroke. Colder air/fuel is more dense, therefore colder is better, at least in terms of increasing power, which is what you want to do when running a fuel with alow BTU content. Just some random thoughts, please comment if anything comes to mind. Catch Y'all later. Skronk (Paul Lamb) ---If the human brain were so simple we could understand it, we ourselves would be so simple that we couldn't--Lyall Watson >X-State: 3 >X-Total-length: 2650 >Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com > [204.122.16.4]) by mail-e1b.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with > ESMTP id NAA10803 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 > 13:13:12 -0500 (EST) >Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com > (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA01363 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, > 20 Dec 1995 09:45:43 -0800 (PST) >Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca > [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP > id JAA00939 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 > 09:42:58 -0800 (PST) >Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca > (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) > for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA07567; Wed, 20 Dec 95 > 12:39:02 -0500 >X-UIDL: 819495824.024 >Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:39:02 -0500 (EST) >From: Wolfgang Starchild >Subject: fnrg: Hydrogen and Oxygen Splitting >To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com >Cc: bmcburne@freenet.npiec.on.ca >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Sender: owner-freenrg-list@eskimo.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > >I would like to tell everyone, That Hydrogen Oxygen > splitting is not my >field, I have done some work with it, however the stuff I > know may not be >correct. I admit that some of the information (hydrogen > heviar than air, >etc) was incorrect. > > At any rate, I recived a letter from someone (I forget who) >sstating that it may not be neccary to include Oxygen in the > Hydrogen >powered car. After doing some thinking, he is probbably > right. Being as >this car would not be functioning in a vacume, it would be > sutablle to >just use hydrogen to power the car, and use air instead of > oxygen. The >combustion ratio would not be as high, however it would be > compensated >for by the money saved to have two seprate cooling tanks, > and of course >the labour to produce it. > > If we were to ssay (in theory) attempt to convert a > reciprocating >engine to use hydrogen instead of gas, it would probbably be > somewhat >easier. Although I am not a mechanic, and I have no idea > about the way a >car engine works, it might be as simple as putting a new > tank with the >cooling unit, and preheater, then piping the hydrogen > through what used >to be the feul line... you probbably wouldn't even need a > feul filter >because the hydrogen would be relivily pure... > >Hmmm, anyone care to elaborate? > >(Bruce, You're a mechanic, what do you think?) > > >Skyward Aerospace >(905)685-8726 Extension #1 >wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca > >"There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" > > > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 13:03:01 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA06615 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA06533 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA11327; Thu, 21 Dec 95 10:54:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:54:16 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: fnrg: Re: Hydrogen and Oxygen Splitting (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's a copy of the message I recived from Bruce McBurney, a licenced mechanic in Ontario Canada regarding the H2O2 engine... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:15:47 -0500 (EST) From: Bruce McBurney To: Wolfgang Starchild Cc: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogen and Oxygen Splitting The problems as I see them With hydrogen engines is that they have not developed a system to slit the water molecule efficiently enough. The electricity required would be better charged into a battery than produce Hydrogen there are too many losses in the interneal combustion engine. Also if tomorrow some how only 30% of our cars went to Hydrogen or electric there would not be enough power in our hydro system to recharge them .Any ways my system does not cracks water for to produce hydrogen but cracks gasoline and water into methane and methanol yeilding about 5 times further distance with practically no pollution . My system works at about 7 pounds pressure not the thousands required for nat gas or hydrogen. Check out my stuff at http://www.inett.com/himac it has the answers, got to go, E ya later Bruce From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:13:37 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA08935 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA08896 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA17923; Thu, 21 Dec 95 11:00:16 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Thu, 21 Dec 95 11:11:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 10:59:20 EST Message-Id: <4F06+MFMqkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Radiometers X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bill Beaty wrote" "There is a paper from early this century which points out that the true explanation involves lateral motion of gases along the painted surfaces, with unbalanced motion leading to thrusting forces when the two colors of paint are at different temperatures. I don't quite visualize this, it might mean that there are sheet-jets of gas being launched from the edges of the little diamonds." In the partial vaccum, molecules of air bounce around randomly due to browninan motion. Molecules hitting darker and therefore warmer sides of the painted surfaces pick up more thermal energy from the warmer surface than the lighter colored sides. AS the added heat energy causes the molecules ro rebound off the surface faster than they so on the cooler surfaces, there is an equal and opposite force pushing on the darker and warmer sides. The motion vectors of the molecules is not important, and there are no "jet-sheets" moving parallel to the surfaces as the radiometer begins to turn when first exposed to light and heat. The motion is generates by the difference between the kenetic energy of the collisions of air molecules cause by the added heat energy on the darker side. As to radiometers running backwards, I've never seen a radiometer do this, but I rarely put mine in the fridge. I'll try it though, my wifes knows I'm nuts now, so I have nothing to loose here. I've just got to see one run backwards, as I cannot easily see how this is possible in terms of the theory of operation. Any clues out there? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:31:02 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA12090 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12053 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA18418; Thu, 21 Dec 95 11:17:57 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Thu, 21 Dec 95 11:29:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 11:12:19 EST Message-Id: <4F06+XRMqkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Rotating fields and such. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the possibility >>of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would happen >>is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our dimension. >>One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. >>This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. >>Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com > >EXCELLENT, GREG. This has ACTUALLY happened to me. Simultaneous(it >appeared) shared knowledge of specific events over substantial distance. I >never have figured out how to verify any of it "scientifically," but it was >true for me and a friend so we suspect it must be true for all people (and >perhaps all life forms?). Oooh, your getting warm there! You might want yo look into referances to the "spiral scan" of EEG waves as described by Dr. Flanagan, i beleive it's discussed in the FLAN files on KeelyNet. Also, you will want to look at some of the results refered to by Dan Winters in his book, I think the original material was done by the Heart Math Institute, as well as similar work done at the Monroe Institute. The basis of this work is that specific states of mind in humans are reflected by changes in the harmonic contents of environmental and bioelectric fields neasured in nature near the subject of the study. This phenomena has everything to do with remote viewing, and much more as well. "Perhaps thought travels over a medium, as yet not understood scientifically, something like scalar field." "Perhaps thought effects a scalar field through some medium. Who knows." Ok, were hot now! Scince people have apparently had psychic impressions of events you to come, and/or have received such impressions while electromagneticaly sheilded, and apparently perceived these impressions of events and objects inside sheilded containers such as a safe, then this is currently the best technological approach we can take on this subject. As to thought effecting fields, I refer readers to the construction plans for the Electrostatic Gradiometer project on Bill's web site. I included specific descriptions of this exact phenomena being measured technologically. This is the other half of the "frequency following effect" of the human brain as used in neural entrainment devices. Anyone care to complete the circle and see where the rotating field come into play in this? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:31:59 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA12214 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA12194 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA29979; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:30:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:30:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. In-Reply-To: <9511218195.AA819566542@irout.advantor.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And for those who don't get the point: The following experiment is extremely dangerous, and should only be attempted by experienced professionals. It is offered here for information only. If you experiment with bottles of lye and hydrogen, you do so entirely at your own risk. It would take an entire training course to communicate the skills needed to perform this experiment safely. If you get lye in your eyes you will probably cause permanent blindness. If you light a flame (or even a spark) near the hydrogen, you can explode the bottle and create a spray of glass and lye. A small exploding hydrogen balloon can burst your eardrums. There are even several ways you can kill yourself with the following experiment. On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, reim wrote: > for those who are interested in making hydrogen easy and fast try this. > back when I was in college I used to blow up balloons with hydrogen > and then light it with a match ( a match on a stick that is ) . > > Put Lye ( you can get it at a grocery store ) in a glass bottle ( about > 2 table spoons ) and pour some water in with it to get a slurry. At this > point the bottle will start to get hot. Then put SMALL strips of aluminum] > foil in the bottle and you will get instant hydrogen . CAUTION : This > reaction is fast and creates a LOT OF HEAT. You can get a explosion. When > I used to do this I would put the bottle in ice water to keep it cool and > prevent the bottle from breaking. Then I would put a small balloon over the > top of the bottle and the pressure would blow up the balloon in about > 30 seconds ( depending on how much aluminum you put in it ) Try this if > you like but be careful. > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:47:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA14672 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA14664 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:46:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA02309; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:46:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:46:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Radiometers In-Reply-To: <4F06+MFMqkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Robert A. Shannon wrote: > The motion vectors of the molecules is not important, and there are no > "jet-sheets" moving parallel to the surfaces as the radiometer begins to > turn when first exposed to light and heat. The motion is generates by the > difference between the kenetic energy of the collisions of air molecules > cause by the added heat energy on the darker side. If I recall corectly, this paper was referring to the fact that the radiometer still turns at a much higher pressure than it should. At high presures the molecules rebound from the heated surfaces, but then they immediately rebound from the other molecules and tend to cause heated gas rather than thrusting jets. If the pressure is so high that the mean free path of a molecule is much smaller than the size of the paddles, then the molecules will end up bouncing around the surface and will not form the action/reaction molecular beams that are required before there can be thrust. Of course at REALLY low pressures the mean free path would be long, the hot surface would emit molecular beams, and the paddles WOULD be driven as you say. > I've just got to see one run backwards, as I cannot easily see how this > is possible in terms of the theory of operation. Any clues out there? It has to be because the black side absorbs radiation better than the white side. This means that it emits radiation better also, so when the heated paddles are placed in the fridge, the black sides cool faster, leaving the white sides hot. More: I've heard it claimed that the IR absorbtion spectra of various paints are about the same, regardless of their perceived colors. Metal is a terrible IR absorber, while white paint usually absorbs well, like black paint is thought to. So, if you want your house to stay cool, don't paint it white, paint it silver! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 10:31:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA02792 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA02759 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id NAA09899 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:30:32 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512211830.NAA09899@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:30:31 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199512191528.KAA14785@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> from "Andrew Cantino" at Dec 19, 95 10:28:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Yes, thats it. It is like a hover car, but can fly higher. The sound > waves do not need to bunce of anything. The sound its self cause a high > pressure zone UNDER the craft. This gives it lift. > > +------------------------------+ > | | > | Sound wave creater | > +------------------------------+ > | | | | | | <----Sound is emited > *********************** > High pressure ---> ********************* > **************************** > *********** > > > > Andrew Cantino > ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu > > What do you think of this? -- ((( ((( (O,O) (O,O) (-) (-) ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- I I I Andrew Cantino I I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I I I ---------------------------------- My home page is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html My other home page is at: http://www.geopages.com/Athens/1910 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 13:38:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA03057 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from compumedia.com (galadriel.compumedia.com [199.242.25.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA03048 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp211.compumedia.com by compumedia.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #7) id m0tSsei-0007MxC; Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:36 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:36 PST X-Sender: skot@compumedia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker) Subject: fnrg: Re: Mineshaft bobs Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Scott Becker said: > >>I've just skimmed through the thread concerning the mineshaft bobs. >>I heard the story a year ago and thought about it and an idea came >>to me that could explain ( and I think does ) how the result of the >>experiment can happen with normal gravity ( as it's commomly >>understood ). >> >>Consider one shaft and one bob. >> >>With the bob support in the center of a symmetrical shaft that goes >>straight down, according to conventional thinking the bob would stay >>centered and point toward the center of the earth. >> >>Okay, now dig a second shaft. As this is done, a few hundred tons of >>earth are removed. The gravitational attraction ( normal ) between >>the rope/bob and the earth removed is no longer there. So the earth >>that is still there on the other side of the original shaft will pull >>the bob in that direction. >> >>I had done some calculation and the g force necessary to pull a mile >>long bob two inches to the side was something like .000001 g's. >> >>I don't know how to calculate the g force from the earth removed but >>I think that it is in the ballpark. >Gary said > > >I understand what you are saying, and that possible explanation occurred to >me as well. >However, if you read the text of the accounts of the experiment, I believe >the 2 shaft experiment was performed only after the effect was first noted >in a single shaft (or at least that's the way I read it). The effect was >first noted in a single shaft, although they don't say what the divergence >was measured to be. > My above explanation would also hold true in a single mine shaft as well: when a bob support was held 6 inches from the wall of a 6 foot shaft and then moved 5 feet toward the other side the bob would move an inch or so more than 5 feet. This is why I stated: >> With the bob support in the CENTER of a SYMMETRICAL shaft... >Bert Pool said: >I don't have the original article on the plumb bobs before me, but as I >recall the two mine shafts were approximately the same distance apart as >they were deep. Assuming the shafts were one mile deep and one mile apart, >wouldn't the millions or hundreds of millions of tons of rock between the >two shafts make the miserly few hundred tons of missing rock appear to be >completely insignificant? .... As I recall the story the the shafts were 1 mile deep and 12 feet apart. And this was the basis for my thoughts. If they were a mile deep and a mile apart the tape measure needed to measure the distance change would be amazing. And the temperature differance alone between the surface and a mile down would more than account for the two inch change. Scott Becker From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 14:30:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA11772 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from compumedia.com (galadriel.compumedia.com [199.242.25.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA11764 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp210.compumedia.com by compumedia.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #7) id m0tStTG-0007MKC; Thu, 21 Dec 95 14:28 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 14:28 PST X-Sender: skot@compumedia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker) Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I heard about a successful hydrogen run engine. They put in 10 times more water than they did hydrogen. This made it run smoothly by both absorbing the heat into steam ( controlling temperature ) and solved the main problem of the extremely high burn rate ( the almost instantly made steam expanded gently ). I don't know if he was aware of any embrittlement problem. One other point: pure oxygen can not be used in a normal design - remember "OXYGEN do not use oil" Scott Becker From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 15:19:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA19865 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA19854 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA08073; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:18:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:18:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Welcome new users! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I see that quite a number of people have subscribed to FREENRG-LIST in the last few days. Welcome! When you s ubscribe, you receive a "greeting" message. Remember to save it permanently since it contains the unsu bscribe instructions. I s ubscribed to so many lists myself that I had to start a "lists" mailbox in my email program just for the greeting messages. The group now numbers 200. Be careful about staying on-topic, because with this many users it becomes easy to start hundreds of separate message threads which choke everyone's mailboxes with offtopic discussions. The overall topic is hobbyist-level experimentation in unconventional physics, specifically free energy and electrogravity, but wandering into "scalar" physics, paranormal effects, unexplained anomalies, etc. Since it's easy to talk forever about the theoretical side of things without actually DOING any real-world investigation, this list is aimed more towards experimentation than theory. People interested in unconventional theories can discuss them on the NEOTECH list. See my Weird Science page, under Interesting Discussion Groups/listserves, for info on NEOTECH. To the non-adults here, be aware that we often discuss dangerous experiments without referring to the necessary safety precautions. Indeed, unknown devices carry with them unpredictable dangers. Anyone who tries to reproduce anything discussed on this list does so entirely at their own risk. Ridicule of "crazy" ideas is banned. Flames and trading of insults is banned. If you wouldn't say it to someone in person, then suppress the urge, or use private email and don't post it here. Watch out for the "Well He Started It" phenomena, where one person misinterprets another's words as an insult and then replies in kind. We must maintain an atmosphere which doesn't descend below the level of respectful debate. FREENRG-LIST FREENRG-LIST FREENRG-LIST FREENRG-LIST FREENRG-LIST FREENRG-LIST ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-LIST VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 15:22:25 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA20417 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20369 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA08340; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:21:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:21:54 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Radiometers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: mudskipper@lead.compulink.co.uk To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 18:24:54 +0000 Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Radiometers > Bill Beaty wrote" > > "There is a paper from early this century which points out that > the true explanation involves lateral motion of gases along the > painted surfaces, with unbalanced motion leading to thrusting > forces when the two colors of paint are at different temperatures. > I don't quite visualize this, it might mean that there are sheet-jets > of gas being launched from the edges of the little diamonds." > > In the partial vaccum, molecules of air bounce around randomly due to > browninan motion. Molecules hitting darker and therefore warmer sides > of the painted surfaces pick up more thermal energy from the warmer > surface than the lighter colored sides. AS the added heat energy causes > the molecules ro rebound off the surface faster than they so on the > cooler surfaces, there is an equal and opposite force pushing on the > darker and warmer sides. Is there really a problem with the radiative explanation. Why should the two sides of the vanes transfer heat differently to particles on contact? Tony Tony From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 15:40:28 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA23313 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA23299 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA09815; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:40:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:40:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Brown's Gas Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With all the discussion of H2 and O2, I'm suprised no one has started talking about "Brown's Gas," the 2:1 combination of H2 and O2 which is supposed to have special properties. An old physics teaching demo involves placing a tin can full of live steam upside down onto a water surface. The condensation of the steam happens instantly, as if the steam thought the water was a good vacuum. And so the can is crushed instantly. What happens if a perfect mixture of h2 and o2 was ignited in a tank? If the metal walls of the tank were at room temperature to start, the resulting steam would vanish at hight speed into water on the tank surface, and leave behind a fairly good vacuum. This effect might even interfere with the explosion. One of Brown's claims is that when a *perfect* 2:1 mixture of H2 and O2 is ignited, it doesn't explode. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-LIST VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 05:23:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA15952 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 05:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA15930 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 05:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from t29.dialup.peg.apc.org (t29.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.157]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id AAA07201 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:20:47 +1000 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:20:47 +1000 Message-Id: <199512211420.AAA07201@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: thought speed Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Well it looks like there is some interest and experience with thought as a >medium of communication at a distance. This started out in response to how a >scalar field (whatever that is) propagates and what happens when a rotating >magnetic field exceeds the speed of light. Clearly there is still a lot to be >discovered and understood. Perhaps thought travels over a medium, as yet not >understood scientifically, something like scalar field. >A psychic friend of mine years ago while in a trance described to me how his >brain produced very low level high frequency signals (in the megaherz range) >which acted as a sort of carrier for his ESP abilities. Perhaps thought effects >a scalar field through some medium. Who knows. Just a few ideas. >greg.birdsall@deepcove.com I've not heard of the brain producing high frequencies in the MHz range ..it tends to produce pulses in the 1-40 cycle range. But there is something very strange about the alpha-theta lower frequencies of 4-13cps. This freq. range seems to "plug in" to a thought field external to our cranium enclosed brain. There has been some Russian experimentation which indicates that FOCUSSED thought may change the density of TIME locally. That is....it stresses time.....and as time appears everywhere simultaneously this could account for the apparent instantaneous transfer of thought. Transmission of thoughts between people appears to happen in alpha or theta, which might indicate that our conscious, reasoning beta left brain may be incapable of communicating at this level. Cleve Backsters discovery of a primary communication between plants and humans also indicate that the thought transferrence takes place usually only when genuine emotion was involved. Emotion is also a right brain activity. The Russians have found that psychokinetic effects happen at a dominant right-brain frequency of around 4 cycles per second. These effects have also been observed by using Kirlian photography. Emotion....or sometimes simulated emotion.......appear to be the common denominator in a lot of observed anomalous mind-power effects and it is because this emotion is not replicable on demand that conventional science cannot develop a reliable protocol to study it. There is a lot of knowledge here that we don't have....but now that Quantum Physics is taking an interest...some clues might be forthcoming J.F. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 00:17:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA00419 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA00409 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:17:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512220817.AAA00409@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:22:12 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Clarification on H2O2 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >mufflers/sound supressors are needed. Now, the exhaust of H2O2 Clarifying, the "H2O2" being discussed here is not to be confused with H2O2 as Hydrogen Peroxide -- the liquid where an extra oxygen atom is attached to a water molecule. It is instead a mixture of gasses, where pairs of hydrogen atoms as a gas are comingled with pairs of oxygen atoms also in a gaseous state. This is simply for anyone reading who is not real familiar with both of these. Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 00:26:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA00945 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA00932 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:26:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512220826.AAA00932@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:31:10 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Re: New Zealand Hydrogen Rotary Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those who haven't seen it, this is an article on my set of web pages that is the most visited of my pages, and might be of interest here: ============================================ Rotary Hydrogen Engine -- Direct from New Zealand. A clean-burning rotary hydrogen engine is being worked on by a group in New Zealand. Here's a statement from the principle member of the team, Wolf Brinsbury: STEAM ENGINE WITHOUT A BOILER As hydrogen is much hotter than our present fuels, we are looking to turn this into an advantage rather than a problem (as it has been considered in ordinary internal combustion engines, causing an overheating of valves). What we propose with our rotary engine is to use this higher temperature of the hydrogen as a catalyst or trigger. We use water injection along with a small amount of hydrogen. On igniting, the heat turns the water vapor into high pressure steam on each power stroke. We are not looking at power being derived from the hydrogen. It will be from the steam with the hydrogen as the internal heat source. This being the reverse of the present steam engine, where a large body of water is heated externally. We use a small body of water internally. To turn water into steam requires a temperature of 800 degrees F. Water per volume expands 1700 times, exerting tremendous force. This force is elastic, not like the hammer blows of the internal combustion engine. The diesel engine obtains its heat from high compression of the air reaching temperatures of 1000 degrees or more. This though, creates back pressure which is power loss on the up stroke. With hydrogen and water we eliminate this. I cannot use the term "stroke" as we have no piston, a round rotor revolves in a circle in one direction. Our first aim is to move into the marine field. We are looking to get away from the burning of fossil fuels and the pollution of this planet. The oil companies are naturally limited in their lifespan. If you would like to contact this group, you can write to the following address. Please realize that merely curious inquiries will consume time, and cannot be guaranteed a response. The need is for serious investors to become involved to speed up the development of this important work: Wolf Brinsbury 15 Gibson Place Howick, Auckland NEW ZEALAND ---> Please note: You MUST WRITE TO THEM DIRECTLY by snailmail. I am in Seattle. Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 00:46:12 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA02543 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA02529 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:46:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512220846.AAA02529@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:50:59 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Radiometers and Heat Pumps Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >browninan motion. Molecules hitting darker and therefore warmer sides >of the painted surfaces pick up more thermal energy from the warmer >surface than the lighter colored sides. > The motion is generates by the >difference between the kenetic energy of the collisions of air molecules >cause by the added heat energy on the darker side. It is this kinetic energy in the movement of air molecules which is absorbed by heat pumps, leading many to pursue the possibility of a heat pump being able to run an electrical generator, which runs the heat pump, all fed by the summation of energy of molecules being slowed down as their heat is absorbed, that is, some of their kinetic energy is transferred to the slower moving molecules in the cooler pipe. It is claimed that heat pumps can deliver 11 times the energy required to run them (btu's delivered), but converting that to electricity is the problem. The energy comes from the kinetic energy of a zillion microscopic 'bowling balls' (if you will) hitting a surface, sometimes at speeds around 100 miles an hour, over microscopic distances of course. Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 01:33:20 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA05486 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 01:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA05479 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 01:33:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512220933.BAA05479@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 01:38:26 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Re[2]: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stressing that these cautions are to be taken very seriously. I have a scar on my knee from a lye burn, and am lucky to be alive with the explosion that occured, as the thousands of pieces of flying shrapnel could only have missed going right through me by providence, IMHO, in a hyrogen experiment. Gary Hawkins At 08:30 AM 12/21/95 -0800, you wrote: > >And for those who don't get the point: > >The following experiment is extremely dangerous, and should only be >attempted by experienced professionals. It is offered here for >information only. If you experiment with bottles of lye and hydrogen, you >do so entirely at your own risk. It would take an entire training course >to communicate the skills needed to perform this experiment safely. If you >get lye in your eyes you will probably cause permanent blindness. If you >light a flame (or even a spark) near the hydrogen, you can explode the >bottle and create a spray of glass and lye. A small exploding hydrogen >balloon can burst your eardrums. There are even several ways you can kill >yourself with the following experiment. > >On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, reim wrote: > >> for those who are interested in making hydrogen easy and fast try this. >> back when I was in college I used to blow up balloons with hydrogen >> and then light it with a match ( a match on a stick that is ) . >> >> Put Lye ( you can get it at a grocery store ) in a glass bottle ( about >> 2 table spoons ) and pour some water in with it to get a slurry. At this >> point the bottle will start to get hot. Then put SMALL strips of aluminum] >> foil in the bottle and you will get instant hydrogen . CAUTION : This >> reaction is fast and creates a LOT OF HEAT. You can get a explosion. When >> I used to do this I would put the bottle in ice water to keep it cool and >> prevent the bottle from breaking. Then I would put a small balloon over the >> top of the bottle and the pressure would blow up the balloon in about >> 30 seconds ( depending on how much aluminum you put in it ) Try this if >> you like but be careful. >> > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 14:36:39 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA12878 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA12827 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from t14.dialup.peg.apc.org (t14.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.142]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id JAA16502 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:35:26 +1000 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:35:26 +1000 Message-Id: <199512212335.JAA16502@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Rotating fields and such. Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>Perhaps a different way of thinking is necessary to understand the >possibility >>>of faster than light travel by fields or whatever. Perhaps what would >happen >>>is that instantaneous manifestation would happen throughout our >dimension. >>>One possible example, perhaps unscientific by some minds, is thought. >>>This is an area where metaphysics and physics meet. >>>Greg.birdsall@deepcove.com >> >>EXCELLENT, GREG. This has ACTUALLY happened to me. Simultaneous(it >>appeared) shared knowledge of specific events over substantial distance. >I >>never have figured out how to verify any of it "scientifically," but it >was >>true for me and a friend so we suspect it must be true for all people >(and >>perhaps all life forms?). > >Oooh, your getting warm there! > >You might want yo look into referances to the "spiral scan" of EEG waves as >described by Dr. Flanagan, i beleive it's discussed in the FLAN files on >KeelyNet. Also, you will want to look at some of the results refered to by >Dan Winters in his book, I think the original material was done by the >Heart Math Institute, as well as similar work done at the Monroe Institute. > >The basis of this work is that specific states of mind in humans are >reflected by changes in the harmonic contents of environmental and >bioelectric fields neasured in nature near the subject of the study. > >This phenomena has everything to do with remote viewing, and much more as >well. > >"Perhaps thought travels over a medium, as yet not understood >scientifically, something like scalar field." "Perhaps thought effects a >scalar field through some medium. Who knows." > >Ok, were hot now! > >Scince people have apparently had psychic impressions of events you to come, >and/or have received such impressions while electromagneticaly sheilded, >and >apparently perceived these impressions of events and objects inside >sheilded >containers such as a safe, then this is currently the best technological >approach we can take on this subject. > >As to thought effecting fields, I refer readers to the construction plans >for the Electrostatic Gradiometer project on Bill's web site. I included >specific descriptions of this exact phenomena being measured >technologically. > >This is the other half of the "frequency following effect" of the human >brain >as used in neural entrainment devices. Anyone care to complete the circle >and >see where the rotating field come into play in this? There are some interesting theories out on this by Joseph McGoneagle from the Monroe Institute. He was the guy who "stood up" on U.S Tv recently to defend government funding of Stanford Research with regard to psychic research. The RVers were the guys who 100% accurately indentified the crash site of that downed US military plane which threw the govt. into such a panic. They actually gave the exact co-ordinates of the site ....a satellite picture confirmed it. McGoneagle appears to be able to "throw" his mind anywhere....both in real time and otherwise. His RVing of Mars a couple of million years ago makes for fascinating reading. He also put his mind inside the core of the first atomic test explosion....etc. His book MIND TREK covers all this. But his theories of how it all works are even more interesting. The Aboriginals in Australia are really good at RVing.....probably because they never lost the ability. The theory is that it used to be a natural human survival mechanism but it wasn't until Stanford Research took it up on a scientific basis and developed a procedural protocol that the Quantum world could actually get a handle on it. All I can say now is that I now couldn't effectively run my business without it (and 3 years ago I thought it was faries-in-the-garden stuff). It enables us to look ahead and see a LIKELY outcome of various decisions. Because our Aboriginals have been using it for millenia us Aussies have been bought up with a natural belief that it happens. Most of this mind-power stuff requires this "belief system" which is why sceptics don't have much success. But now that the Quantum people are showing an interest (including Stephen Hawking) the rest of the scientific world are starting to sit up and say....."wots this then". New knowledge (or re-discovery of old) takes a bit of assimilating.....it was only a couple of hundred years ago that everyone "knew" the earth was flat!! Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 21:32:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA12788 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA12780 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p5.aa.net (s3c1p5.aa.net [204.157.220.145]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA04590 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:31:04 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512220531.VAA04590@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:30:22 +0800 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: fnrg: Brown's Gas Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:40 PM 12/21/95 -0800, you wrote: > > >With all the discussion of H2 and O2, I'm suprised no one has started >talking about "Brown's Gas," the 2:1 combination of H2 and O2 which is >supposed to have special properties. > >An old physics teaching demo involves placing a tin can full of live >steam upside down onto a water surface. The condensation of the steam >happens instantly, as if the steam thought the water was a good vacuum. >And so the can is crushed instantly. > >What happens if a perfect mixture of h2 and o2 was ignited in a tank? If >the metal walls of the tank were at room temperature to start, the >resulting steam would vanish at hight speed into water on the tank >surface, and leave behind a fairly good vacuum. This effect might even >interfere with the explosion. One of Brown's claims is that when a >*perfect* 2:1 mixture of H2 and O2 is ignited, it doesn't explode. > > > >vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv >freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list freenrg-list >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd >Moderator: FREENRG-LIST VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L >http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 > > Bill, as you yourself really know, the "NET VACUUM" is not a claim. It is a reproducible fact. I have experienced it many times. I have never experienced an explosion, although I do know of people having experienced an unfortunate explosion while using Brown's Gas generators or hobbyist-made rigs which use the same princples as the BG generator. Fascinating stuff, but you gotta run a little scared using the stuff to make sure that everything is really running EXACTLY like it is supposed to. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 13:09:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA19281 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA19268 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id NAA17502; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:09:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Orrey software? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dan Davidson is looking for a planetarium/orrey program which is NOT earth-centered. Anyone familiar with something he could use? ..............................freenrg-list................................ William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-LIST VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 13:16:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA20310 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA20241 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id NAA18307; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:15:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:15:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: fnrg Resonance Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 07:20:49 +0200 From: Ivor Johansson To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg Resonance Please excuse my lack of knowledge... I have recently joined the list. Reading all the mail of late on resonance, I have been bugged by a though. The concepts applied in a microwave oven to break the H2O bonds to produce heat are very interesting. Would it not be possible to use this in reverse. By this I mean, what is the possibility of tuning into the resonance of say something that is frozen. Does it not make sense to try create a "micro-type-of-fridge"? I have seen a program on TV where a Japanese guy uses resonance to clean washing without any soap powder. Think of all the possibilities. No more use of ozone depleting equipment used in freezing. If this is possible and cheaper than the average fridge to run, I would be the first to get rid of the old fashioned fridge which IMHO has been around far too long. Ivor Johansson ijohanss@ctcc.gov.za Saving the plant and living the experience of life is what it is all about. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 17:08:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA22003 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 17:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA21993 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 17:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p1.aa.net (s3c2p1.aa.net [204.157.220.149]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09141 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 17:07:51 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199512230107.RAA09141@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 05:07:10 +0800 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: fnrg: fnrg Resonance Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Please excuse my lack of knowledge... > >I have recently joined the list. Reading all the mail of late on >resonance, I have been bugged by a though. The concepts >applied in a microwave oven to break the H2O bonds to >produce heat are very interesting. Would it not be possible >to use this in reverse. > >By this I mean, what is the possibility of tuning into the >resonance of say something that is frozen. Does it not make >sense to try create a "micro-type-of-fridge"? I have seen a >program on TV where a Japanese guy uses resonance to >clean washing without any soap powder. > >Think of all the possibilities. No more use of ozone >depleting equipment used in freezing. If this is possible and >cheaper than the average fridge to run, I would be the first to >get rid of the old fashioned fridge which IMHO has been >around far too long. > >Ivor Johansson >ijohanss@ctcc.gov.za >Saving the plant and living the experience of life is what it is >all about. > > > ignorance is certainly excusable since all of us are ignorant of most things. in regard to resonance, it is a state for the maximum transfer and manifestation of energy. energy in the em sense increases heat... just won't work for refri\geration but, there is a solid state cooling cycle using the peltier effect, i believe it is spelled do a check on the net search engines for it. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 10:23:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA22345 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 10:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sound.demon.co.uk (sound.demon.co.uk [158.152.9.124]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA22273 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 10:22:18 -0800 (PST) Path: sv.span.com!swassell From: swassell@sv.span.com (Stephen Wassell) Subject: Re: Re[2]: fnrg: Re: Splitting Water. References: ** unknown ** To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-ID: <819781906snx@sv.span.com> X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.41 $ X-Poster: RAID@span.com, Sound & Vision Internet BBS [+44] (0)181-288-8444 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 22:11:46 GMT Organization: Sound & Vision BBS +44 (0)1812 888 444 Lines: 18 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In article ** unknown ** you write: >Stressing that these cautions are to be taken very seriously. >I have a scar on my knee from a lye burn, and am lucky to >be alive with the explosion that occured, as the thousands >of pieces of flying shrapnel could only have missed going >right through me by providence, IMHO, in a hyrogen experiment. For us non-Americans, what exactly *is* Lye? Some mineral acid I guess... One interesting source of hydrogen is central heating - the gas that builds up in radiators explodes very satisfyingly. :) I suppose it's the Fe/Cu joins electrolysing. -__-_--_._--_-__-.._--_-__-.-__-_--_..._--_-__-.-__-_--_..-__-_--_._--_-__- _____ __ __ / ____)\ \ / / Stephen Wassell \____ \ \ \/\/ / Internet: swassell@sv.span.com QMCnet: WASSEL.S (_____/ \_/\_/ See my home page! - http://www.geopages.com/Tokyo/1204/ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 22:08:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA09823 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA09798 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id WAA08555; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:06:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:06:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: "William V. Adams" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:24:30 +0800 Subject: Robert Adams I am looking for more information/reviews on the Adams Pulsed Electric Motor Generator which was reported on in Nexus Mag. in the April-May issue. If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate them. Is there a FAQ/??? on the avaiable FTP sites for diagrams and/or schematics for Permanent Magnet Motors? Thank You In Advance For Your Help!! ========================================================= ~<:-?) feather in my cap/w tounge hanging out hacking linux William V. Adams email: wvadams@soar.com 31810 N. Mill Rd. ph: 509-276-7830 Deer Park, WA. 99006-9318 U.S.A. ========================================================== From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 18:26:16 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA01045 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01035 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA17394; Fri, 22 Dec 95 21:22:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:22:03 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: fnrg: H2/O2 Cars To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With regards to a recent debate which has in question the fact that one might use air in the atmosphere which contains nitrogen and oxygen instead of pure oxygen, I give the following for your consideration... In the January 1996 issue of Discover Magazine, page 80. "NITROGEN POISONING By burning fossil feuls and using fertilizers, humans introduce more than 300 million tons of nitrogen compounds a year into the biosphere. Besids contributing to acid rain and ozone destruction, nitrogen fallout also overfertilizes some soils - endangering native grasses in American and Canadian praries and turning Dutch healths into shrub lands." As pointed out in an earlier message, If we were to use hydrogen and air as feul, we would probbably just be doing the same if not worse polloution then now. Burning hydrogen and air produces Nitric Oxide, *not* water. However, I'm convinced some of the bright minds in the loop probbably already know this, and are working on prototypes right now, if not already driving them. Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 23:38:10 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA10225 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 23:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix10.ix.netcom.com (ix10.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA10220 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 23:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA06377; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 23:35:42 -0800 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 23:35:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199512250735.XAA06377@ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: More security for users To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi Bill; Is there a reason to be this paranoid? Dennis You wrote: > > >>>>> who freenrg-list > >**** List 'freenrg-list' is an anonymous list. >**** The 'who' command is not allowed for this list. > >I've added an upgrade command to the list configuration, so the "who" >command is no longer allowed. Several people have wanted to subscribe >anonymously to the list. Now this is possible, at least as long as they >only lurk and do not send messages. > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 04:11:30 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA19486 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 04:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bukula.enternet.com.au (bukula.enternet.com.au [203.63.18.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA19480 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 04:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from e2a116.enternet.com.au (e2a116.ade.enternet.com.au [203.63.43.116]) by bukula.enternet.com.au with SMTP id XAA01590 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for ); Mon, 25 Dec 1995 23:11:01 +1100 Message-ID: <30DEA324.6AA5@mail.enternet.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 22:42:04 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: BMS Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b3 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > --- FORWARDED --- > > From: "William V. Adams" > To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com > Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:24:30 +0800 > Subject: Robert Adams > > I am looking for more information/reviews on the Adams Pulsed > Electric Motor Generator which was reported on in Nexus Mag. in the > April-May issue. If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate > them. > Is there a FAQ/??? on the avaiable FTP sites for diagrams and/or > schematics for Permanent Magnet Motors? > Thank You In Advance For Your Help!! > ========================================================= > ~<:-?) > feather in my cap/w tounge hanging out hacking linux > William V. Adams email: wvadams@soar.com > 31810 N. Mill Rd. ph: 509-276-7830 > Deer Park, WA. 99006-9318 U.S.A. > ==========================================================Re request for info Adams Motor...... Have construction manual and other details......Adams reports over unity power generation as back EmF recharging nicad pwr source.......have NOT been able to duplicate results!!!!!!.........Have over 20 years experience as Electronics Engineer/Designer........Have however several strange results in switch mode PSU design which suggests we don't fully understand ferro-magnetics...........What's your interest????????/ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 15:51:01 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA22175 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA22169 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA17295; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:50:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:50:39 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: merry Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Out beyond Pluto may be a massive object. This mass, which here we name "X", disrupts the Oort cloud and launches periodic storms of comets whose impacts may have caused mass extinctions in earth's history. -- Merry "X" mass -- .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 15:58:39 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA22590 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:58:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA22583 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA18105; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:58:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:58:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: More security for users In-Reply-To: <199512250735.XAA06377@ix10.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 24 Dec 1995, dennis lee wrote: > >**** List 'freenrg-list' is an anonymous list. > >**** The 'who' command is not allowed for this list. > > > >I've added an upgrade command to the list configuration, so the "who" > >command is no longer allowed. Several people have wanted to subscribe > >anonymously to the list. Now this is possible, at least as long as they > >only lurk and do not send messages. > > Hi Bill; > > Is there a reason to be this paranoid? Some people like their privacy, others have sensitive jobs. Anonymous subscription is a normal part of other listservers, but majordomo doesn't have it except in the form of "who"-disabling. I decided that privacy was more important than world-executable "who." As always, the FREENRG-LIST website has a users list. Anyone who wants to be on it can send me a blurb and I'll install it. Try to make it similar to the ones already there. ..............................freenrg-list................................ William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-LIST VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 12:42:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA06717 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA06685 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:42:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512262042.MAA06685@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:46:47 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Lye Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:11 PM 12/23/95 GMT, you wrote: > >For us non-Americans, what exactly *is* Lye? > Lye is Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH), the strongest base known. It was used commonly in very dilute form in soaps in the past, so you might have heard of "lye soap". It is currently available in some grocery stores in 100% concentration in a product called "Red Devil Lye" (looks a lot like table salt) for clearing clogged drains, so it is right next to another product called "Draino". When lye makes contact with skin, in strong concentrations, it slowly creates a stinging sensation and begins to soak to deeper levels. It's major damage is a delayed effect, as it reacts with cells, eventually leaving a deep wound, much like a third degree burn. Unlike sulphuric acid for example, it does not harm cloth. Here's more: >http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/don/dt/dt3201.html >sodium hydroxide > >A white, translucent, highly deliquescent, extremely caustic alkali (NaOH), prepared mainly by the electrolysis of sodium chloride. It is >used in the manufacture of paper pulps, and can also be used for the rapid degradation of hair and other epidermal structures of hides >and skins. it is seldom if ever used for this purpose in practical tannages, however, as it dissolves the hair (which is commercially >valuable) and can severely damage the collagen of a skin unless very carefully controlled. Also called "caustic soda." (144 , 306 ) > >Search all CoOL documents >CoOL Welcome Page >This page last changed: July 03, 1994 > Also more info at: http://tysoe.smcm.edu/QuantInfo/MSDS/SodiumHydroxide.txt The above gives the official Material Safety Data Sheet for NaOH From: http://www.chem.umr.edu/Organic/Experiments/1310x73x2.html "Interesting note: sodium hydroxide is used to "dehorn" calves." Misc: Here's a nifty chemistry course (?) on the web: http://wings.buffalo.edu/academic/department/chem/chemweb/stoich09.html#finish Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 01:58:31 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA26473 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 01:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.magnet.at (root@mail.magnet.at [193.80.248.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA26464 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 01:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from magnet.at by mail.magnet.at with UUCP id AA24192 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com); Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:30:40 +0100 From: ro.scheucher@magnet.at (Roman Scheucher) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: KeelyNet and others Date: 26 Dec 1995 09:51:03 GMT Message-Id: <203751390.15624888@magnet.at> Organization: magnet Online Service Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does anybody know where I can get the latest KeelyNet-files ? The files located at "nucleus.ibg.uu.se" are at least 1 year old and so I am not at the last stand in FE-development because this is the only address I know with good FE-stuff. It would be nice if someone could send me adresses about FE and anti-gravity by the use of capacitors. I need also Tesla-coil-related stuff (TESLABLD.EXE). Has anybody of you practice with the COILBAK-Circuit which is located at the adress above in /pub/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/energy ? ro.scheucher@magnet.at --- OffRoad 1.9k unregistered From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 14:05:01 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA16357 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 14:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA16307 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 14:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id OAA19205; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 14:04:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 14:04:27 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Hudson's monoatomic metals Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I had some thoughts about the "disappearing powder" effect Hudson discovered when working with monoatomic metal powder. The effect might be entirely conventional, and similar to the optics of almost-invisible Aerogels. --- FORWARDED FROM PRIVATE EMAIL --- > Your comment on "white? gold" is quite astute. The term, as used by hudson, > refers to a general group of transition elements primarily rhodium, > iridium, palladium, ozmium, and platinum. Some of these turn out a > silver grey and some turn out white, gold turns out as a white milky > suspension in water. Hmmm. This about the milky suspension is disturbing, because when single atoms of a substance are mixed with water, this is called DISSOLVING, and the water may become colored, but it will remain totally transparent. If the water is milky, then there must be atomic clusters in there which are about as large (or larger) than a wavelength of light. Single atoms are about 100 times smaller than light wavelength, so the atomic clusters must be huge. If the gold was monoatomic, I would expect it to totally vanish when mixed with water. I wonder what the the difference in health effects are between a suspension of atomic clusters, and a solution of dissolved (and therefore monoatomic) metal. Have you heard of Pat Flanagan's work with molecule-sized clusters of MINERALS (not metals.) He traced the long lifespans of a Russian (Yugoslav?) village to the water they were using, and this glacier water contained molecule-sized clusters of various mineral substances. Flanagan figured out how to create this artificially, and is now selling it as a lifespan-extension powder which is mixed with water in order to duplicate the effects of the original, no longer available glacier water. I think the product is called "crystal water." It never occurred to me that there was a connection between this and Hudson's work. > When you say nearly-mono, I'm curious how you would know. What test would > you envision using. To be truely monoatomic, the substance would vanish when mixed in water. If it made the water distinctly milky, then it's clusters, not atoms. Of course it may be possible that the powder starts out as monoatomic, and it gets compressed into chunks when it is forced into the water. Hudson's original discovery about heating would be a good one. The powder vanishes when heated? In hindsight this might be expected of a pile of individual atoms! The heat vibrations would smooth out the pile and let air escape, and the pile would start to act like a transparent liquid. But a very strange liquid, with huge gaps between the atoms. And so, it would optically look like an "aerogel," it would look like an ice cube does when underwater, barely there at all. It would be very slightly bluish. If you scooped a bit out of the "invisible" pile, it would cool and reappear on your spoon. > Was this black substance from personal experience? >From messing with copper electroplating, I noticed that if the current is turned up high the plated surface comes out rough, and if it is too high, it doesn't plate at all, it just produces fast-growing globs of black jelly. Years later while studying fractals/chaos, I figured out that this is explainable because electroplating is a class of crystal growth, and crystal growth is nonlinear and dominated by chaotic dynamics at higher growth rates. When a crystal grows slowly, the atoms have a chance to stick and break loose over and over, so any parts of the growing crystal will tend to be polished down by this process, so the crystal will grow flat facets. But if a crystal is made to grow fast, any atom that sticks to the solid surface will stay there for good. This produces a fascinating effect: the growing flat surface becomes unstable, because any parts that stick out will collect more atoms than the flat surface, and so dendritic "trees" of material start growing like mad. This is how growing frost or snowflakes differ from growing ice cubes. This is also what causes the difference in shape between lightning and a glow-discharge. The copper dendrites can be very small, maybe like rows of single atoms. The branches of the trees tend to touch together, so the growing crystal acts like a mass of tangled brambles. If you put two copper wires in a cup of copper chloride or copper sulphide (or is it sulphate?) solution, then connect them to a power supply, the negative terminal will collect metallic copper. If you set the voltage too high you will see some black stuff form on the negative wire. If you set the voltage high enough, you can SEE this glob of black stuff increasing in size! It will grow and take over the whole cup! If you pull that wire out of the solution, the black stuff remains behind. The black stuff is pure copper, but composed of incredibly tiny tangled branches. I don't know how close these branches are to monoatomic size. Aha! This reminds me of something. Have you ever heard of "platinum black?" This is something similar to the above effects with copper. When platinum is used as a catalyst, the surface area is important, so a rough platinum plate works better than a polished one. But it is possible to create dendritic platinum through accelerated growth, and this surface is BLACK. If you want to make a simple fuel cell, dip some extremely clean nickel metal into platinum chloride. It will become coated with dendritic platinum, and will work far better as a catalytic electrode than would a solid platinum plate. Since this tiny-dendrite platinum is black, I wonder why Hudson's monoatomic platinum isn't? The copper and the platinum are black because the web of dendrites forms an incredibly rough surface, and these metals are slightly absorbtive of light (meaning they are not perfect 100% reflectors.) Carbon is not inherently black (look at diamonds!), it's only black when it takes an incredible fine sponge-like form. In platinum-black, light hits the tangled branches, it goes down between them and bounces over and over, being absorbed a bit on each bounce. Little light returns. Have you ever seen the science trick where you make a stack of old-style razor blades, and the side of the stack with the sharp edges appears black? Even though the steel is silver, when the light gets down between the blades it bounces back and forth so many times that it is totally absorbed. Aha again! I just remembered an incident where a friend accidentallly made one of these fractal-network globs in air using Zinc, and the glob WASN'T black. I'm wrong about the black. It's only black when the fractal branches are spaced out the same or larger than the wavelength of light. If the branches are smaller than lightwaves, then the substance will appear transparent. IT WILL APPEAR SKY BLUE! The atmosphere is blue because individual N2 molecules still scatter light a tiny bit, even though they are much smaller than the lightwaves. So, a mass of monoatomic material should look like a nearly-invisible icecube, and if a bright beam of light is sent through it, from the side the material should look slightly blue and not milky, and from the front, its silouette against the light source should look slightly reddish. I bet this happens when monoatomic metal powder is heated. When cool, Hudson's powder must fall together in nonuniform bunches, and start scattering light like a normal powder. I guess it works like this: Powdered metal is silver when the powder grains are far larger than the wavelength of visible light. Example: aluminum powder. VERY finely powdered metal, where the grains may be approaching the size of lightwaves, is black like soot (and for the same reasons.) Example: platinum black, black-electroplated copper VERY VERY VERY finely powdered metal should be transparent and bluish (maybe only when heated?) Example: Hudson's monoatomics, zinc aerogel. On the zinc mentioned above. It is possible to create fractal network structures which are much smaller than wavelengths of light, and these networks are transparent. Jello is such a network, it is a tangled branching web of gelatin protein-balls lined up in rows. When one of these networks is made in air instead of under water, it is called an "aerogel." A friend accidentally generated a zinc aerogel when welding a galvanized electrical box. The box had holes in the back, and after welding, the box had these clumps of blue-white feathery substance. Now zinc is strange, it's evaporation temperature is very low, so if you heat it with a welding torch it tends to generate clouds of zinc vapor rather than simply melting. What probably happened is that the welding was causing superheated zinc vapor which blew into the holes in the box. It cooled VERY rapidly and tried to form zinc-soot. But instead of plating out as solid zinc metal, it cooled so fast that it formed a fractal network. And rather than forming a black-soot type substance, the cooling was so rapid and the growth was so fast that the growing dendritic branches were smaller than the wavelength of light. And so the zinc-soot was feather-light, and transparent rather than black!. Be warned that zinc vapor is poisonous, so if you try this experiment, you do so at your own risk. Oh dear, you seem to have set me off. Hope your mailbox doesn't reject large messages. On Hudson's powders. I'm skeptical about health effects because the power of belief can work miracles, and anything advertized as a miracle cure will REALLY BE a miracle cure, but the cure will be in the mind, not in the substance itself. Conventional medicine pooh-poohs this and calls it Placebo Effect. Yet the placebo effect unleashes all the power hidden in the mind. If modern science CARED about the placebo effect, it would be harnessed into solving all the world's problems, and not just the medical ones. Anyway, if this is the situation, how can Hudson have ever sorted out the effects of his powder from the powerful effects of unfettered belief? You can't just give the monoatomic-platinum water to someone and see what happens, because the effects will be strongly biased, if not entirely created, by the person's mind. You have to do double-blind testing. Are you already aware of how this goes? Make two batches, one with monoatomic powder, one with something else. Give the two batches to someone else who doesn't know which is which. Have this person give samples to people (in bottles with number codes, so YOU know which is which, even if no one else does,) and this person won't know which ones are real, so he/she can't accidentally give away the secret to the end users. THEN see what effects the users report. I've been thinking about the chemistry of Hudson's powders. From a conventional standpoint, the biochemistry is not normal. To get metals into water, you usually dissolve a metal salt. But a metal salt (say platinum chloride) contains positively-charged metal ions. When the salt dissolves, each metal atom goes off into the water monoatomically. However, because it has a positive static charge, it attracts a shell of water atoms around itself which all point their oxygen atoms towards the metal atom. And outside of this shell is another shell of oriented water atoms, and outside of this one another. In electrochemistry this is called the HELMHOLTZ LAYER after its discoverer, and is commonly harnessed in those one-farad "supercapacitors." So, a charged metal atom in water is not just a metal atom, it is a charged object surrounded by polarized shells of water atoms. Metals do not dissolve in water, at least at nowhere near the rate that metal salts do. If you put a piece of platinum into water, it won't dissolve away in a few minutes. But the few atoms of platinum that DO get into the water will not be charged. They will be neutral atoms, and they will not become surrounded by multiple shells of polarized water molecules. Now suppose that the human body requires UNCHARGED metal atoms in some parts of its chemistry. Suppose the shells of polarized water around a charged atom will interfere with some chemical process in the cells, so the cells can't easily use the charged atoms. If this is the case, then it doesn't matter how much of a certain metal is dissolved in your body fluids, if all the atoms each carry a positive charge, then these atoms cannot be used by the possible chemical process. However, if there are metal deposits in a stream, then metal clusters and atoms will be in the water, and drinking the water will give your body the possibly- needed uncharged metal atoms. If someone figured out a way to CREATE monoatomic metal-filled water, then that water would act as a nutrient. But only if uncharged-metal-requiring chemical reactions do exist. Hudson's powders are a bit scarey, because anything new tends to be seen as having health applications. Alternative medicine long ago was promoting baths in radium-containing springs, and selling radioactive medicine, not knowing that there were dangers involved. At what point do Hudson's powders become poisonous? How much of the population has some kind of allergy to it, but won't find out until it's too late? What if the powder has immediate health benefits, but longtime use is harmful? (Lots of substances are like this. Think about conventional drugs!) And finally, if monoatomic metals mostly involve the harnessing of the "placebo effect" and the convincing of people to unleash their mental powers, then it's far better to give them a substance that's familiar and longtime known to be totally safe. Fooling yourself and others into fixing their own problems is a valid route to the solution of problems, as long as the "fooling" doesn't itself involve something dangerous, like unexpected slow poisoning effects, or armed FDA swat teams holding your family at gunpoint! ;) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 04:14:35 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA18998 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 04:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from execpc.com (mailgate.execpc.com [204.29.202.21]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA18993 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 04:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.execpc.com (bpaddock@earth.execpc.com [204.29.202.50]) by execpc.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with ESMTP id GAA22770 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 06:13:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from bpaddock@localhost) by earth.execpc.com (8.7.3/8.7) id GAA09985; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 06:13:42 -0600 (CST) From: bpaddock@execpc.com (Bob Paddock) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Mineshaft bobs Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:52:46 -0500 Message-ID: References: <9512172329.AA17554@clark.dgim.doc.ca> In-Reply-To: <9512172329.AA17554@clark.dgim.doc.ca> Lines: 41 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In article <9512172329.AA17554@clark.dgim.doc.ca>, you wrote: > robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) wrote: > >If this story is true, this experiment should be performed again, if for no >other reason than having a current reference. It's simple enough that a >group of high school students could do it, providing they found a willing >mining company :-) This really is too important to ignore. >(snip) > > >I would like to see this information. I know a few people in the Mines and >Minerals branch of the Department who would be interested too, and might be >able to help in finding a suitable hole up here in Canada to conduct similar >tests. > As part of my job I get to spend lots of time in coal mines, mostly in the east coast so far. But there is probably not many mines in the world that some one in my organization has not been to at some time or other. As far as "let high school students do it". It won't happen. You couldn't even get them on the mine site property for insurance and liability reasons. I have trouble getting in to the mine, and they *ASKED* me to come! Mine shafts are will NOT give "laboratory conditions" to to duplicate experiments involving any type of precision. Humidity, and air flow (ventilation) are just two factors that immediately come to mine. It's really fun standing (?) in front of one of the ventilation fans (These fans are larger that a lot of two story houses) this time of the year.. 30 knot wind with a wind chill of -30'C UNDERGROUND.....fun stuff. There are some multi-purpose mines in Canada (Salt & Gold ect) that are quite deep. One of my former colleagues was up there, at the surface it was -20F. At the level he was working at it was 80'F (Closer to the center of the Earth the hotter it gets, real world stuff here no 'theory'). So if try for a nice warm one that you can drive the equipment into. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 18:03:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA08328 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA08319 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA29788; Tue, 26 Dec 95 20:59:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:59:16 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: fnrg: Searle Disks To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've recently been reading about the Searle disk from the Anti-Gravity Handbook by D. Childress. It mentions that when a Searle disk is charged enough, the protons and other atomic structure collapse and put the disk and whatever's attached to it into a quantum field which allows an enertialless environment which also can make point A point B, and remove the time between [Einstiens theory] Before I make an order and have alot of money spent on getting ther parts for ssuch a gadget, does it infact do what it's supposed to do? Will it propel what's attached to it upwards? Can it realy make an enveloping quantum field? THanks to those who can help! Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 19:04:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA13477 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA13462 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id WAA01502 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 22:04:13 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512270304.WAA01502@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 22:04:12 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Wolfgang Starchild" at Dec 26, 95 08:59:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tell me too! Andrew -- ((( ((( //// || (O,O) (O,O) O-O--= (-) (-) ( ^ _/\_ ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- /\~-\/ \ I I /|`/ _ \_ \ I Andrew Cantino I / | : U_/ / I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I \(__:__ \_/ I I =@===== ---------------------------------- | | My home pages are at: / | | http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/andrew.html / /| | http://www.geopages.com/Athens/1910 | | | | |__| |__| /#_) |#\ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 20:21:35 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA20751 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from wanda.pond.com (wanda.phl.pond.com [198.69.82.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA20741 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacific-12.vf.pond.com by wanda.pond.com (8.6.12/gw.1.0) id XAA13692; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:23:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:23:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199512270423.XAA13692@wanda.pond.com> X-Sender: toolman@mail.pond.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: "William P. Taylor" Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Wolf, if you come ascross any information on Searle disk I would be most interested. Please email. At 08:59 pm 12/26/95 -0500, you wrote: > >I've recently been reading about the Searle disk from the Anti-Gravity >Handbook by D. Childress. > >It mentions that when a Searle disk is charged enough, the protons and >other atomic structure collapse and put the disk and whatever's attached >to it into a quantum field which allows an enertialless environment >which also can make point A point B, and remove the time between >[Einstiens theory] > >Before I make an order and have alot of money spent on getting ther parts >for ssuch a gadget, does it infact do what it's supposed to do? Will it >propel what's attached to it upwards? Can it realy make an enveloping >quantum field? > >THanks to those who can help! > >Wolf > >Skyward Aerospace >(905)685-8726 Extension #1 >wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca > >"There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" > > > > ------------------------------------- William P. Taylor From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 03:03:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA17559 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 03:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA17554 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 03:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA15321; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 05:59:45 -0500 Date: 27 Dec 95 05:58:10 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Searle Disks Message-ID: <951227105810_76216.2421_HHB39-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wolf - You wrote: >Before I make an order and have alot of money spent on getting ther parts >for ssuch a gadget, does it infact do what it's supposed to do? Will it >propel what's attached to it upwards? Can it realy make an enveloping >quantum field? I've never heard of anyone being able to reproduce Searle's alleged success at building levitating disks. I don't know that it can't be done either, but people will tell you that. But then ask them if *they've* tried it. Experimenting is the thing. If you can afford the expensive materials required, why not try it? I'm setting up to try for Biefeld-Brown, another legendary result with a very spotty duplication history, to put it mildly. At least the materials are cheap. Good luck to both of us. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 04:29:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA21527 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 04:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix8.ix.netcom.com (ix8.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA21521 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 04:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id EAA25802; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 04:28:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 04:28:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199512271228.EAA25802@ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Biefeld_Brown... To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rick; Could it be that the Biefeld-Brown effect is a tuned phenomenon? I have test asymetrical electrode pairs under vacuum. My original plan was to see how electric and magnetic fields combined to produce a gravity field via the plasma. What I got from a number of different electrode pairs (wire - sphere, cone - wire, cone - sphere, etc.) was spinning disks, spheres, and cones of plasma. There were certain settings where the spinning plasma took up most of the space between the electrodes; in a non-tuned state the plasma would collapse into very tiny blobs spinning on the electrodes themselves. Are there any opinions on what this means? Dennis & V You wrote: > >Charles - > >You wrote: > >>I'm not sure if you were here when we were discussing simple ways to >>determine whether or not the Biefeld-Brown effect was due to ion wind or >>not. We decided that the best way to do that would be to shield each >>capacitor plate in some sort of casing, thus trapping the ions in and >>preventing ion wind flow between the plates. Puthoff and company tried >>this years ago and they got negative results: with the capacitor plates so >>shielded the effect disappeared. > >>After this was discussed the two experimenters engaged in this >>research on this list stopped updating us. Clearly they were silenced by >>the Majestic-12. I'm sure they're lying in ditches somewhere. > >No, was not here. Insulating the plates sounds like a good idea, not just for >dousing wind effects but to be able to keep a stable charge and cut down on >power drain. > >I had heard of some French experiments that were done in vacuum chambers years >ago that reported success, and lately in the US there is yet another report of >work commissioned by the USAF that show some positive results from a carefully >prepared vacuum chamber intended to cancel both electrostatic and ionic >effects. The brief I read on this described a residual force on some >assymetrical electrodes in direction opposite to both ionic wind and the >direction reported by TTB. I've got video of TTB working with assymetrical >electrodes, and in it he appears to be having some success. It would stand >to reason that BB could set up in either direction (as TTB also reported) if it >is capable of netting out across a laminated cap, right? > >There are negative reports and there are positive reports. I'd like to see for >myself on my own benchtop. I've got a few ideas that I think might have hold >the possibility of not only isolating the effect if there is one, but also of >amplifying it. Should be fun setting up and trying, anyway. I will keep the >list here posted on the results I achieve, positive or negative. > >The nature of your comments regarding others who have investigated reports of >this phenomena while posting to this list is duly noted. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 08:45:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA12168 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 08:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from wanda.pond.com (wanda.phl.pond.com [198.69.82.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12157 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 08:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from arctic-12.vf.pond.com by wanda.pond.com (8.6.12/gw.1.0) id LAA02906; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 11:47:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 11:47:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199512271647.LAA02906@wanda.pond.com> X-Sender: toolman@mail.pond.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: "William P. Taylor" Subject: fnrg: Reversing a Magnet Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Has anyone tried to turn off a permament magnet by using sound waves? AS I understand Keely tried something like this and he was successful. Has anyone tried to duplicate his expirement? ------------------------------------- William P. Taylor From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 09:05:05 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA14200 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA14187 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA10041; Wed, 27 Dec 95 12:01:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 12:01:09 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <951227105810_76216.2421_HHB39-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Dec 1995, Rick Monteverde wrote: > I've never heard of anyone being able to reproduce Searle's alleged success at > building levitating disks. I don't know that it can't be done either, but > people will tell you that. But then ask them if *they've* tried it. > > Experimenting is the thing. If you can afford the expensive materials required, > why not try it? I'm setting up to try for Biefeld-Brown, another legendary > result with a very spotty duplication history, to put it mildly. At least the > materials are cheap. > Well, my company could easily afford the materials, I'd just have to place the order. However, I find that alot of these "free energy" discs and so on are alot of crock... Not to say NONE of them work, but most of them seem to have these great big huge promises by these inventors and yet they don't work... REally wierd... However, if you're interested in quantum theories, then read Anti-Gravity handbook... I've also done some experementing with Brown discs, such as, getting a nice round peice of glass, and having two metal (Same size as glass) circles attached to it (probbably with glue), then Energized them for about 1 hour, nothing happened. My next step is to use a higher power supply of about 100kV or so, and just leave it on overnight in the lab... Wolf > Good luck to both of us. We're going to need it! > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > P.S. how's the weather there? Here's it about -10C (about 15F?) Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 10:55:52 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA27480 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA27458 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA26087; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:54:07 -0500 Date: 27 Dec 95 13:52:53 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Biefeld_Brown... Message-ID: <951227185252_76216.2421_HHB23-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dennis & V - You wrote: ------------------------------------------- >Could it be that the Biefeld-Brown effect is a tuned phenomenon? >I have test asymetrical electrode pairs under vacuum. My original >plan was to see how electric and magnetic fields combined to >produce a gravity field via the plasma. What I got from a number of >different electrode pairs (wire - sphere, cone - wire, cone - sphere, >etc.) was spinning disks, spheres, and cones of plasma. There were >certain settings where the spinning plasma took up most of the >space between the electrodes; in a non-tuned state the plasma would >collapse into very tiny blobs spinning on the electrodes themselves. >Are there any opinions on what this means? ------------------------------------------- >From some of the things I've heard, some sort of tuning with a pulsed DC current could be involved. But one thing that a pulsed current might do is set up eddy currents in materials and plasmas which in turn create magnetic fields that might hide or confuse any underlying 'gravitational' force, in addition to the problems of ionic thrust and electrostatic effects. I'm planning on eliminating those effects as much as possible to try to see if there's anything being masked behind them. Could you tell me more about the conditions in your experiments? The spinning disks, spheres and cones of plasma remind me of Tesla's "rotating brushes". Was your vacuum chamber surrounded by a grounded shield for stray external fields? What was the voltage level? Pulsating DC? Frequency? From the fact of the presence of plasmas I gather that the vacuum was not a hard vacuum. Thanks for bringing this up again. As I said in my other message, I missed the reports here by others doing related work, and haven't yet seen the descriptions of Puthoff's experiments, so I'm very interested in reading your comments. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 14:10:56 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA21561 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA21552 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA00780; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:09:26 -0500 Date: 27 Dec 95 17:06:48 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Searle Disks Message-ID: <951227220647_76216.2421_HHB52-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wolf - You wrote: >"I've also done some experementing with Brown discs, such as, getting a >nice round peice of glass, and having two metal (Same size as glass) >circles attached to it (probbably with glue), then Energized them for >about 1 hour, nothing happened. My next step is to use a higher power >supply of about 100kV or so, and just leave it on overnight in the lab..." The idea of Biefeld-Brown as I understand it is that something happens to the conditions of space-time within the volume of the capacitor, thus affecting either gravity or the response of the capacitor's mass to gravity (its inertia). If such an effect exists, shouldn't it extend, if only slightly, to the space beyond or between the plates? After all, if it is a "field" of some sort... Have you considered checking for such fields near the plates using plumb bobs of various materials? These types of experiments were done in 1916-17 by Francis Nipher, and similar ones by Piggott. The environment surrounding bobs hanging in a glass or similar tube or container could be shielded and/or evacuated, or oil filled. Or the bobs themselves could be grounded (via conductive suspension wires, or conductive fluid like salt water) or tested ungrounded, all towards defeating the usual interferences and isolating what really is or isn't happening. You could sight the supporting threads of the bobs against background reference lines for changes, and easily swap different bobs, materials, surrounding environments, grounding and shielding conditions etc., or make comparative observations with numerous bobs tested simultaneously, all without messing with the capacitor at all. The success in maintaining electrical neutrality in various environments could be checked with electroscope-style foil pairs in the bob containers, and could include bobs consisting of or having such foil or plate sets attached to them. IMO this would be much easier than trying to sight an awkward, highly charged device spewing ions and trying to repel itself from the walls or whatever. I'm not even going to attempt that, but rather I'll clamp the capacitor to the bench and test some bobs kept as close to electrically neutral as I can keep them, in positions very near to or between capacitors using various methods above. If there is a change in either gravity or the symmetrical nature of inertia within masses, bobs should show that within a few millimeters or so of the source of such a field. Free swinging pendulums could have their period measured with the capacitor(s) charged and then again while discharged, or even during charging or discharging (I've heard of this pendulum experiment, with reported positive results). Lots of options. The beauty of this method is in the confidence you could have in apparent positive results. If a row of bobs having different mass, composition, electrical, and magnetic characteristics, were all observed to be simultaneously displaced by the *same amount*, well - you've either just tilted their background reference frame, or.... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 15:12:59 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA00712 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA00690 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA23361; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:12:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:12:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks In-Reply-To: <199512270423.XAA13692@wanda.pond.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, William P. Taylor wrote: > Wolf, if you come ascross any information on Searle disk I would be most > interested. > Please email. I think there's a bit of info on Weird Science, in the list of free enrgy device with Keelynet Mirror links, http://www.eskimo.com/~bill/freenrg/fnrg.html. ALso, I just added a link to a Searle webpage. It's on weird science in the OTHER WEBSITES, VARIOUS WEIRD SCIENCE PAGES subpage. Also, the International Tesla Society had an entire issue of Extraordinary Science about Searl. I think they sell back issues. As far as I know, no one but Serle has made his device work. There's some info on Keelynet BBS about a guy who built a variation on Serle's turbine which was supposed to have spun by itself with increasing speed, levitated, glowed, struck the ground with lightning bolts, and flown off into the sky. This is on the actual BBS at 214-324-3501, not on the internet archive. ..............................freenrg-list................................ William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-LIST VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 14:48:18 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA26207 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA26179 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from t11.dialup.peg.apc.org (t11.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.139]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id JAA16838 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 09:47:29 +1000 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 09:47:29 +1000 Message-Id: <199512272347.JAA16838@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick What about the idea of using a lighweight gyroscope instead of bobs? A gravitational change might cause an angular deflection of the gyro. Even a simple spinning toy "top" might work here. The Russian astrophysicist Kozyrev used a gyroscopically based asymmetrical pendulum tied somehow into a torsion balance to measure time/space events, apparently with considerable success. Food for thought... Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 00:02:07 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA02348 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix2.ix.netcom.com (ix2.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA02323 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id AAA26108; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:01:16 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:01:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199512280801.AAA26108@ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Non-linearity, scalar effects, and possible To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robert; Your mention of a scalar current in a wire brings to mind a quote of Tesla's concerning his magnifying transmitter. He stated that a scalar current can be kept in the primary indefinitly. Do you have any comments on this statement? Dennis Lee You wrote: >In my limited experiance with these devices, you can generate a "current" >in a wire that is "scalar", but cannot directly generate free space waves >in this manner. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 00:55:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA08307 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA08298 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id AAA29033; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:55:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: grav cap Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 00:56:54 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA08413 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA08403 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id AAA29303; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:56:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:56:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Peregrin magnetic motor sources needed. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Wed, 27 Dec 95 23:51 CST To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Robert Sciog Subject: Peregrin magnetic motor sources needed. In the KEELYNET files there is an article about the first magnet motor. It was invented by Pietrus Peregrinus. The article reads : " Peregrinus also is believed to have invented the first magnet motor, consisting of 17 magnets, and three wheels connected to three gears. The simplicity of the design belies the inventor's understanding of both the mechanical and magnetic principles involved. This design was translated into English in 1954, and built. After it was proven to work, it was disassembled and destroyed. However, the English translations are still available at the New York City Public Library. Enjoy!" -- Does anybody have a source for a copy of this translation, A Book or document name. Our local library is slightly lacking. Bob Sciog sciog@mcs.net From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:25:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA11510 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ra.cs.ohiou.edu (ac817@ra.cs.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA11488 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ac817@localhost) by ra.cs.ohiou.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id LAA18279 for freenrg-list@eskimo.com; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:24:16 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Cantino Message-Id: <199512281624.LAA18279@ra.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: fnrg: Non-linearity, scalar effects, and possible To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:24:14 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199512280801.AAA26108@ix2.ix.netcom.com> from "dennis lee" at Dec 28, 95 00:01:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Could someone please tell me what the hell scaler radiation is? -- ((( ((( //// || (O,O) (O,O) O-O--= (-) (-) ( ^ _/\_ ----oOOo-----oOOo---oOOo---oOOo--- /\~-\/ \ I I /|`/ _ \_ \ I Andrew Cantino I / | : U_/ / I ac817@seorf.ohiou.edu I \(__:__ \_/ I I =@===== ---------------------------------- | | My home page is at this address: / | | http://www.geopages.com/Athens/1910 / /| | | | | | |__| |__| /#_) |#\ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:34:12 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA12873 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12852 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA20956; Thu, 28 Dec 95 11:29:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:29:39 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <951227220647_76216.2421_HHB52-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Dec 1995, Rick Monteverde wrote: > The idea of Biefeld-Brown as I understand it is that something happens to the > conditions of space-time within the volume of the capacitor, thus affecting > either gravity or the response of the capacitor's mass to gravity (its > inertia). If such an effect exists, shouldn't it extend, if only slightly, to > the space beyond or between the plates? After all, if it is a "field" of some > sort... > Rick > Honolulu, HI > That is some great information. Thanks very much... Could you tell me more about these bobs? I have read something about them in the threads.. but didn't pay much attention... Thanks Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 11:05:25 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA04656 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.64]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA04627 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id af12738; 28 Dec 95 19:03 GMT Received: from altek.demon.co.uk ([158.152.51.175]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa26843; 28 Dec 95 19:02 GMT Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:25:13 GMT From: Lee Allen Message-Id: <4470@hello.co.uk> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Zero Point Energy & Plasma X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 40 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A recent TV program here in the UK (17th Dec 1995 'Equinox') featured (amongst other interesting items) a piece about a plasma discharge that provided an overunity output under certain conditions. It was said that such results need not conflict with energy conservation laws and might be explained in terms of interactions with the Zero Point Energy field. In a paper published by the Russian News agency, Novoski dated around 1980 it is claimed that Prof Alexander Chernetski was able to create a "self generating discharge". Dr Harold Puthoff (Institute for Advanced Studies, Texas) went to Moscow in 1991 and witnessed a demonstration. He was interviewed on the program. He said... "I went to see his device - it was a very dramatic demonstration. I was impressed. I went home (my first night in Moscow) and didn't sleep very much trying to figure out how this thing could be working, whether it was a trick, what principles could truly be involved" Prof. Chernetski was invited to the USA in order to continue his work but died in 1992. It was stated that nobody has since taken up his research. Due to the enormous scientific and economic benefits such a system would bring I assume that someone somewhere must have tried to duplicate Chernetski's results. I also assume (as there are no headlines in the world's press) nobody has been successful. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried to duplicate Chernetski's work with what result. Can anyone provide any quantitative info or technical references about Chernetski's work? Ideally I would like circuits, voltages, frequencies etc. Anecdotal information about plasma induced energy anomalies would also be interesting. Comments anyone? -- Lee Allen Lee2@hello.co.uk From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 11:03:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA04298 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lead.compulink.co.uk (lead.compulink.co.uk [194.153.0.20]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA04269 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mudskipper.compulink.co.uk (mudskipper.compulink.co.uk [194.153.4.40]) by lead.compulink.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA27696 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:01:49 GMT Message-Id: <199512281901.TAA27696@lead.compulink.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tony Martin" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:06:39 +0000 Subject: Re: fnrg: Non-linearity, scalar effects, and possible Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Your mention of a scalar current in a wire brings to mind a > quote of Tesla's > concerning his magnifying transmitter. He stated that a scalar > current can be kept in the primary indefinitly. Do you have any > comments on this statement? I'm finding the term 'scalar current' confusing as it seems self contradictory. Could anybody elaborate? Tony From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 13:06:15 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA19546 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA19527 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA19401; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:04:31 -0500 Date: 28 Dec 95 16:03:10 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Searle Disks Message-ID: <951228210310_76216.2421_HHB64-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim - You wrote: >What about the idea of using a lighweight gyroscope instead of bobs? A >gravitational change might cause an angular deflection of the gyro. Even a >simple spinning toy "top" might work here. >The Russian astrophysicist Kozyrev used a gyroscopically based asymmetrical >pendulum tied somehow into a torsion balance to measure time/space events, >apparently with considerable success. >Food for thought... That might work too. I think the apparatus testing the field probably has to be very close in to the plates of the capacitor, within a few millimeters to a centimeter if possible. From what I can gather from the Brown patents and other descriptions, it's the steepness of the gradient that makes the difference. So space outside the plates, while perhaps still within a powerful field, might not represent a steep gradient like the one between two oppositely charged plates. For instance, a pendulum might be tested swinging parallel to and between the plates. However, maybe a small high-speed gyro might be able to fit in close enough to show unbalanced motion or effects. Thanks for the idea, Jim. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 13:06:09 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA19544 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:05:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA19528 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA19405; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:04:32 -0500 Date: 28 Dec 95 16:03:13 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Searle Disks Message-ID: <951228210313_76216.2421_HHB64-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wolf - You wrote: > Could you tell me more about these bobs? Simple idea. Small beads, spheres, or chunks of matter of various composition with very fine thread attached. Make them yourself from common available materials. Could be hung inside a long (3' or longer) glass, metal, or other such tube. Observation is made by sighting either the thread near the bob against a background, or some projection or edge on the mass against some similar background. Lead, glass, iron, and copper would be good candidates for the bobs, as each have different electrical, magnetic, and mass density characteristics which might help isolate out electrostatic, magnetic, and ionic effects. Bobs could be hung with fine wire for electrical connection (for grounding, mostly) if needed, and suspended within oil or other fluids, or sealed in their container with dry inert gasses or vacuum, partial or hard. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:24:22 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA29948 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix2.ix.netcom.com ([199.182.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA29909 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id OAA27775; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:21:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:21:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199512282221.OAA27775@ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Gary; Conical Tesla coils? The Berlitz book on the Philidelphia Experiment made mention of huge degaussing coils. What did the Tesla coils do? Dennis Lee You wrote: > >At 03:03 PM 12/15/95 EST, you wrote: >>"It was my understanding that according to the standard model, there is no >>such thing as a rotating B field, as the B field is understood to remain >>stationary while the magnet spins in the homopolar generator." > > >In the Philadelphia Experiment, I believe that there were >three or four conical shaped Tesla Coils on board the ship, all >peaking slightly out of phase, so it would have had an effect >something like a coin having been spun on its edge on a table top, >as it rocks part way toward its rest condition, a spiraling >effect, possibly along the lines of what is being discussed here. > >Gary >--------------------------------------------------- >Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today >http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA > > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:32:29 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA01288 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix12.ix.netcom.com (ix12.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA01277 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id OAA29203; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:32:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:32:11 -0800 Message-Id: <199512282232.OAA29203@ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Ion Engine To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Wolfgang; There's an interesting analysis on the Biefeld - Brown effect in "Tapping The Zero Point Energy" by Moray B. King. Paraclete Publishing P.O.Box 859 Provo, UT 84603. This is highly recommended reading, eh? Dennis Lee You wrote: > > > Hello Everyone. I am new to this group. Allow me to introduce >myself; My name is Wolfgang Starchild, I am an aeronautical scientist >interested in non-conventional methods of propulsion [i.e. >Biefield-Brown, T.T. Brown, Searle] I decided to join this group in hopes >of expanding my knowledge and lending a hand where possible. > > I recently read a book by T.B. Pawlicki entitled "How to build a >flying saucer" and the book briefly mentioned an engine which uses ions >to create thrust or, an Ion Engine. I have done much research on this >topic and was wondering if anyone might have more information on the subject. > > Any information would be greatly appreiceated! > >Thanks In Advance >Wolf > >Skyward Aerospace Company >Box 29062 - 125 Carlton Street >St. Catharines, ON L2R-7P9 >wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca > >"There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" > > > > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 13:49:11 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA25283 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA25265 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:49:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from t8.dialup.peg.apc.org (t8.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.136]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id IAA23747 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:48:31 +1000 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:48:31 +1000 Message-Id: <199512282248.IAA23747@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Jim - > >You wrote: > >>What about the idea of using a lighweight gyroscope instead of bobs? A >>gravitational change might cause an angular deflection of the gyro. Even a >>simple spinning toy "top" might work here. >>The Russian astrophysicist Kozyrev used a gyroscopically based asymmetrical >>pendulum tied somehow into a torsion balance to measure time/space events, >>apparently with considerable success. > >>Food for thought... > >That might work too. I think the apparatus testing the field probably has to be >very close in to the plates of the capacitor, within a few millimeters to a >centimeter if possible. From what I can gather from the Brown patents and other >descriptions, it's the steepness of the gradient that makes the difference. So >space outside the plates, while perhaps still within a powerful field, might >not represent a steep gradient like the one between two oppositely charged >plates. For instance, a pendulum might be tested swinging parallel to and >between the plates. However, maybe a small high-speed gyro might be able to fit >in close enough to show unbalanced motion or effects. > >Thanks for the idea, Jim. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > Rick...I've got a better idea. How about fitting your capacitor experiment INSIDE a purpose-built gyro. You could build 2 versions ...one of ferrous material and the other non-ferrous. (Non-magnetic like alumuminium?) Sort of a hollow gyro...should be easy to construct. Commercial aircraft gyros have advanced electronics which detect even the most microscopic shift in axial direction. If this sort of arrangement can't detect localised gravitational anomalies then I doubt whether there is much that will. At least it might prove for once and for all whether the original results are replicable. Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:28:57 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA00816 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA00788 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from t8.dialup.peg.apc.org (t8.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.136]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id IAA25038 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:59:10 +1000 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:59:10 +1000 Message-Id: <199512282259.IAA25038@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick...a further idea re that capacitor enclosed gyro - The whole thing could be made "portable" so that it could be operated in a vertical plane instead of just a horizontal one. It may be that the desired effects would be noticed if the vertical assembly were orientated north/south etc. Just a thought... Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 16:03:47 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA13578 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA13565 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA15114 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:54:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from w9sz@localhost) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA20591; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:03:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:03:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512290003.SAA20591@firefly.prairienet.org> From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Electrostatic motors Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Have any of you built any of the motors from the delightful book ELECTROSTATIC MOTORS by Oleg Jefimenko? They look like they would be a lot of fun, and most could be built with a few pieces of hobby brass and plexiglass. Zack w9sz@prairienet.org From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 03:50:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA12277 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 20:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA12236 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 20:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id UAA17096; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 20:13:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 20:13:34 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: fnrg: Electrostatic motors In-Reply-To: <199512290003.SAA20591@firefly.prairienet.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Zack Widup wrote: > Have any of you built any of the motors from the delightful book > ELECTROSTATIC MOTORS by Oleg Jefimenko? They look like they would be a > lot of fun, and most could be built with a few pieces of hobby brass and > plexiglass. Check out http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/emot1.html The "pop bottle" motor doesn't even use brass or plexi! I've managed to run it from the charge imbalance on the face of a TV screen. ..............................freenrg-list................................ William Beaty bilb@eskimo.com EE/Programmer/exhibit-designer/science-nerd Moderator: FREENRG-LIST VORTEX-L TAOSHUM-L WEBHEAD-L http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com voice:206-781-3320 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 03:32:27 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA07766 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA07732 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA14641; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:08:59 -0500 Date: 28 Dec 95 22:06:43 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: Searle Disks Message-ID: <951229030643_76216.2421_HHB103-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim - Good ideas. There are quite a few anomalies reported for gyros, magnets, etc., while spinning them within various fields, or in some cases, just plain spinning them. I hope to see something in my experiments. Got to get that generator running! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 00:20:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA28002 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix12.ix.netcom.com ([199.182.120.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA27996 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA27257; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:25:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:25:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199512290625.WAA27257@ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Rotating Fields. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry Folks; I should read ahead a bit before responding to old messages! Dennis Lee You wrote: >The reference was from Al Bielek (maybe not the most believable source) >on the Art Bell show about a year ago. The tapes (two shows maybe) could >be obtained by calling the Chancellor Broadcasting Sytem that produces Art's >shows, at : >1-503-664-8829 [in Central Point, OR] From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 03:42:00 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA16427 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from acad.suffolk.edu (acad.suffolk.edu [192.80.92.251]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA16406 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:28:19 -0800 (PST) From: lee02016@acad.suffolk.edu Received: by acad.suffolk.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34812; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:27:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:26:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512282248.IAA23747@peg.apc.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Sort of a hollow gyro...should be easy to construct. Commercial aircraft > gyros have advanced electronics which detect even the most microscopic shift > in axial direction. > If this sort of arrangement can't detect Where does one get these aircraft gyros for a reasonable price? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 20:12:25 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA29249 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 20:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA29235 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 20:12:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512300412.UAA29235@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 20:20:05 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: Strain Guages Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I'd strongly reccomend that you concider mounting a set of weights on posts >with strain guages on the posts to measure any change in deflection caused Does anyone know where to find inexpensive strain guages? ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 07:48:34 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA29086 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 07:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.npiec.on.ca (freenet.npiec.on.ca [205.211.3.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA29068 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 07:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by freenet.npiec.on.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for freenrg-list@eskimo.com id AA27904; Fri, 29 Dec 95 10:44:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:44:35 -0500 (EST) From: Wolfgang Starchild Subject: Re: fnrg: Electrostatic motors To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199512290003.SAA20591@firefly.prairienet.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Zack Widup wrote: > > > Have any of you built any of the motors from the delightful book > ELECTROSTATIC MOTORS by Oleg Jefimenko? They look like they would be a > lot of fun, and most could be built with a few pieces of hobby brass and > plexiglass. > > Zack > w9sz@prairienet.org > Hey Zack; Where did you get the book? Wolf Skyward Aerospace (905)685-8726 Extension #1 wstarchi@freenet.npiec.on.ca "There's Only Two Seasons In Canada, Winter... And July" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:06:32 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA16969 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fastlane.net (fastlane.net [204.251.16.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA16950 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dal41.fastlane.net (dal41.fastlane.net [204.251.16.141]) by fastlane.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA26274 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:01:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:01:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199512291901.NAA26274@fastlane.net> X-Sender: nikki@mail.fastlane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: nikki@fastlane.net (Bert Pool) Subject: fnrg: Gigantic pulse capacitors X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A You know you've wanted to blow up some wire or shrink some quarters or make a water cannon just like Bill and his friends did! Now's your chance. A friend of mine has just unexpectedly changed jobs,and is selling some of his high voltage treasure to make ends meet. He has 40 large pulse discharge capacitors for sale. Specs: Made by Sangamo 3,300 joule capacity (1.75 ufd?) at 60,000 volts d.c. Weight, 250 pounds, size: 28 inches tall by 14 by 10 inches These caps came from a linear particle accelerator. The output electrode on these puppies is huge, about 2.5 inches in diameter, and is made large so it can supply a lot of current very fast! If you need caps for exploding water, exploding wire, shrinking coins, big lasers, Marxx generators, etc., then these may be the super deal that you've been looking for. As Bill B. has amply warned in his Web Page articles, caps like these are not for the inexperienced: you can literally explode an arm or leg or maybe even your torso if you accidently get across these things when they are charged. Exploding your legs, arms or torso is usually fatal, so _great_ caution is advised. Cost? Only $200 each! My guess is that these caps cost 5 to 10 times that new. The buyer, of course, gets to pay freight costs. You can reach me at nikki@fastlane.net or leave a message at (817) 367-3462. Bert From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:24:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA13201 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA13180 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA04033; Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:22:09 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:22:22 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:21:19 EST Message-Id: <4F06+Dj3tkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Non-Linearity, Scalar Effects, and possible... X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "concerning his magnifying transmitter. He stated that a scalar current can be kept in the primary indefinitly. Do you have any comments on this statement?" Tesla stated that the system (Mag. Xmitter.) would "act as an immense pendulum" storing the energy input through the primary indefinitly. My understanding of this is that as long as power flows through the primary circuit, the total potential of the scalar produced would increase without limit. As the maximum of EM potential is limited by the breakdown resistance of the physical structure, Tesla was speculating that the free potential alone would not have any such restriction. A potential already extends to infinity by definition, so it has no theoretical maximum total potential limit. "I'm finding the term 'scalar current' confusing as it seems self contradictory. Could anybody elaborate?" The term is misleading. A scalar current is a macroscopic quantum wave, and will appear to "flow" through a conventional conductor by quantum vaccum polarization in the free electron cloud of a conductor, and also through the bound electrons of a electron rich insulator as well. Indeed you can propogate these "currents" through the E and B fields of an EM carrier wave as well. Temprature distrubution in a solid object is a scalar function at each point, but "waves" of heat may also propogate through an object. This does not change the fact that temprature itself is a scalar, not a vector measurment. Now is a "wave" of temprature propogating through that solid object a vector, or a scalar function? The wave must be a vector, yet the function of which the wave is, is still scalar. Can we call this a "scalar wave"? Not really, but I am not aware of a better term for the electromagnetic condition described by a so called scalar wave. The name really goes back to Whittakers papers and the math behind them, so the name has stuck. Scalar electromagnetics only extends classical electromagnetics, it does not replace it. Classical EM phenomena are a subset of scalar electromagnetic phenomena. I hope this temprature model will help conceptualize the issue a bit more clearly. It does only just hint at the issue of scalar vs. vector duality, but it's sometimes a valuble model to express the concepts. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:47:14 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA16459 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:45:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nectech.com (root@milkyway.nectech.com [128.191.16.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA16422 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs010.NECTECH.COM by nectech.com with SMTP (5.65/29-nectech) id AA04735; Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:44:38 -0500 Received: by cs010.NECTECH.COM; Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:45:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:23:39 EST Message-Id: <4F06+Pl3tkA@cs010.NECTECH.COM> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Robert A. Shannon" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: Re: Searle Disks. X-Incognito-Sn: 320 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=2.00 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Where does one get these aircraft gyros for a reasonable price?" At you local avaionics shop, try the yellow pages. "The idea is to construct a purpose-built gyro AROUND the capacitor plate. An aircraft gyro is a small compact electronic unit unsuited to this." There are a range of aircraft gyros out there. At the low end of the scale, there are the vaccum driven directional gyro, the vaccum driven gyro horizon, and the electricly driven turn coordinator. Of these, I suspect that only the vaccum driven gyrop horizon would be useful. I imagine that one could disassemble the gyro in a make shift clean room, and design some capacitve sensor to place in the instrument. Only a few inces of vaccum are needed to drive this type of gyro, but compressed air could also be substituted. These gyros cast about $500 new. I happen to have exactly such a gyro in working condition removed from my plane during an upgrade. I suspect that you could use an optical sensor right through the front glass plate rather than disassemble the unit for modification. If anyone wishes to try this, let me know. These gyros will not operate through all physical movements, as the gyro will precess, there are limits here. Electricaly driven gyro horizons start off at the $1000 mark and go up from there. Probably not an option, and even these need to be "caged" during airobatic manuvers. Autopilot gyros are next, these are already instrumented electrically, but not with high resolution sensors, so these probalby would not do. Laser ring gyros are probably ideal, but very expensive, even for the new solid state laser based units. I'd strongly reccomend that you concider mounting a set of weights on posts with strain guages on the posts to measure any change in deflection caused by gravitational anomaly. This is by far the cheapest way to go, and as sensitive as needed for the job at hand. With two posts at right angles, you could probably get all three axis instrumented with only two strain guages. I remember a 3-d mouse at the MIT AI lab that used two strain guages to infer the possition of the users finger on the surface of a ball that used this trick if I recall correctly. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:05:36 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA10413 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA10402 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from t12.dialup.peg.apc.org (t12.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.140]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id IAA26722 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 08:02:01 +1000 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 08:02:01 +1000 Message-Id: <199512292202.IAA26722@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >> Sort of a hollow gyro...should be easy to construct. Commercial aircraft >> gyros have advanced electronics which detect even the most microscopic >shift > in axial direction. > If this sort of arrangement can't detect > >Where does one get these aircraft gyros for a reasonable price? The idea is to construct a purpose-built gyro AROUND the capacitor plate. An aircraft gyro is a small compact electronic unit unsuited to this. My point here (which I should have made clearer) is that if you make a gyro with some of the electronics attached that airline gyros use...then you should be able to detect even the smallest gravity anomaly. These aircraft models work reliably even under the most violent of pyhsical movements so if you were able to adopt some of their technology you could experiment with your capacitor device in a portable mode as suggested earlier. Don't know where you'd get an aircraft gyro but you'll probably find a few unguarded Jumbos round your local airport in the middle of the night!!!! Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 13:20:13 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA12589 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA12570 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from t12.dialup.peg.apc.org (t12.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.140]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id IAA27989 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 08:17:58 +1000 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 08:17:58 +1000 Message-Id: <199512292217.IAA27989@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Searle Disks Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Jim - > >Good ideas. > >There are quite a few anomalies reported for gyros, magnets, etc., while >spinning them within various fields, or in some cases, just plain spinning >them. I hope to see something in my experiments. Got to get that generator >running! > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > Good luck Rick! But I can't help feeling that the angular direction of your experiment is the critical thing. There have been various experiments thru the ages which were not replicable.....and this may be that the axis of the experimental device was not specified. That is...the original may have been facing East/West and the replication North/South. Intuition (which is what I do for a living) tells me that geographic alignment is critical. There were some interesting experiments here in Australia in this regard with solar cells. More power was generated when they were aligned in one specific direction and they worked even better when MOVING at velocity. In the same manner that scientists discovered that their thoughts tended to affect experiments in sub-atomic particle experiments....it may be that there is an additional factor in gravitational experiments ...maybe alignment and velocity? Jim From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 21:44:33 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA08675 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix10.ix.netcom.com ([199.182.120.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA08667 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA23156; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:42:32 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:42:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199512300542.VAA23156@ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill; I agree, but to make innovation really available to society; the idea must be legally protected and marketed. The rights of those who are capable of this level of work should be preserved or they may give up; in which case we all lose. At any rate, I still have some Concentric Tori left. They are still being hand made so I have to charge $20.00 for materials, manufacturing, packaging and shipping costs. Since you're kind of running the show, Bill, I could send you a Concentric Tori (signed by the artist - me ,you never know) at no charge for an evaluation. The challenge of Concentric Tori is visualizing the principal which causes the smaller toroid to concentrically center in the larger toroid. All who come in contact with Concentric Tori are under the obligation to allow others to discover this toroidal centering mechanism for themselves; at least until I complete my study of the effectiveness of Virtual Reality in the analysis of complex structures. Any and all comments on analogous physics phenomenon of Concentric Tori's properties will be welcomed. I will compile this data for a newsletter or webpage. Dennis Lee You wrote: >Sounds like he has the "inventors disease", the one where greed, secrecy, and >paranoia destroy any chance of getting the invention out into the world. From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 21:56:48 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA09839 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com ([199.182.120.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA09830 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA06041; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:53:36 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:53:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199512300553.VAA06041@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: frnrg: Re: Questions on resonance (Meyer) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Guile; I believe that if you vibrate the water molecules at its' ion acoustic resonance frequency, zero point energy will be orthorotated into our dimension. You will thus have more hydrogen and oxygen gas than the amount of imput energy would normally have produced. Dennis Lee You wrote: > >I am new to this field so please excuse my lack of knowledge... > >In the Meyer device he uses resonance to break the covalent bonds >in the H20 molecules. > >1) Why does he polarize the molecule? > Would it not be enough to resonate the bonds? > >2) Does the "rule of thirds" apply in his resonating effect? > >3) Is this effect really one that displays over-unity? > Or is it a more efficient way to break the bonds? > (Genuine question not intended to be sceptical) > > > > Thanks for your time, > Guile D'Arc > darc@mail.bogo.co.uk > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 21:07:46 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA05288 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from comoro.yorku.ca (comoro.yorku.ca [130.63.236.55]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA05274 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from CALUMET.YORKU.CA (asimov.calumet.yorku.ca [130.63.231.100]) by comoro.yorku.ca (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA04787 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 00:07:28 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 00:07:28 -0500 Received: from ASIMOV-CALUMET/MERCURYMAIL by CALUMET.YORKU.CA (Mercury 1.21); 30 Dec 95 00:07:29 -500 Received: from MERCURYMAIL by ASIMOV-CALUMET (Mercury 1.21); 30 Dec 95 00:07:29 -500 Received: from calres202D.calumet.yorku.ca by CALUMET.YORKU.CA (Mercury 1.21); 30 Dec 95 00:07:22 -500 X-Sender: ccudahy@130.63.231.100 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: ccudahy@calumet.yorku.ca (Chris Cudahy) Subject: fnrg: Spark gaps In tesla coils Message-ID: <34457FA7EB2@CALUMET.YORKU.CA> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does anyone know a good place to find info on spark gaps ? I've found lots of stuff on coils, caps., ect - noone says anything about spark gaps. What's the difference between a regular, 2 metal balls spark gap, and a rotary spark gap (and how does that work ?) THanks, Chris (Chris is happy cuz he found a 10kv neon x-former cheap :) +--------------------------------------------------------+ |Chris Cudahy | B.SC. CS/Math - getting there| |ccudahy@calumet.yorku.ca | Swim Bike Run Colapse | |http://www-home.calumet.yorku.ca/ccudahy/www/home.htm | ---------------------------------------------------------+ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 22:41:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA13714 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 22:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA13705 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 22:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from t26.dialup.peg.apc.org (t26.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.154]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.7 ) with SMTP id RAA00914 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 17:40:17 +1000 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 17:40:17 +1000 Message-Id: <199512300740.RAA00914@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: jfrancis@pop.peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: jfrancis@peg.apc.org (Jim Francis) Subject: Re: fnrg: Spark gaps In tesla coils Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Does anyone know a good place to find info on >spark gaps ? I've found lots of stuff on coils, >caps., ect - noone says anything about spark >gaps. What's the difference between a regular, >2 metal balls spark gap, and a rotary spark >gap (and how does that work ?) > >THanks, >Chris Try the little book TESLA COIL SECRETS by R. A. Ford. There's a chapter devoted to rotary (and other) spark gaps. Available from Lindsay Publications Ltd. PO Box 12. Bradley, IL.60915-0012 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 12:09:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA08024 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sashimi.wwa.com (root@sashimi.wwa.com [198.49.174.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA08010 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:07:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by sashimi.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tW7ZB-001W2NC; Sat, 30 Dec 95 14:07 CST Message-Id: From: robert@wwa.com (Robert Stirniman ) Subject: fnrg: More re Rotating EM Fields To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:07:45 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's an interesting news brief from Infinite Energy magazine, July/Aug 1995, Dr Eugene Mallove - editor. (603)-228-4516 A bombshell paper has just been published in the American Journal of Physics, Vol 63 No 8, August 1995, pages 694-705, "Maxwell's Equations in a Rotating Medium: Is There a Problem?" by Gerald N. Pellegrini and Arthur R. Swift (the latter of the Dept of Physics and Astronomy, University of Massachusetts, Amherst MA)" The paper is a direct challenge to Special Relativity. It proves one of two things about a classic 1913 experiment of Wilson and Wilson that was used to verify the prediction of relativity that "a moving magnetic dipole develops an electric dipole moment.' The conclusion of the paper is that Special Relativity does NOT agree with this experiment -- and no one has ever challenged the quality of the experiment. Peregrinni told Infinite Energy that he thinks that all of relativity as well as Maxwell's equations as descriptors of EM radiation are now called into question. Copyright 1995 Infinite Energy. All rights reserved. /* This file is transmitted under the "Fair Use" rulings regarding the 1976 Copyright Act for NON-profit academic and general information purposes. */ From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 14:21:51 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA22184 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (bilb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA22174 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id OAA18446; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:20:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:20:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: (fwd) Mystery waves Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A From: paulc@esslink.com Newsgroups: sci.physics.electromag Subject: Mystery waves Date: 29 Dec 1995 15:26:01 GMT Hello I have built a sensing coil and Amplifier system for monitoring the Earth's magnetic field. It is very sensitive, I can see the movement of an average speaker magnet moved by hand about 20' away from the sense coil. I have coil mounted outdoors about 200' from any metal obects or powerlines(it is very sensitive to any ferris metal moving in the vicinity of the coil, I assume this is distuburbing the field.) My question is I am seeing flucuations in the field that appear to be roughly sinewave in shape. These waves vary in amplitude and have a period of about 1 to 2 minutes each. They also appear to come in groups of 6 to 8 then decrease in amplitude and reappear at full strenght again. The waves are not always sinewave and the period changes from time to time. Awhile back I built a siesmometer that detected similar wave groups but had aperiod of about 6 seconds HELP any answers Thanks Paulc -- .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 20:30:15 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA23242 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.122.16.4 (ghawk@tia1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.40]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA23226 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:30:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601010430.UAA23226@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:37:26 +0800 To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: fnrg: resistors Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard, Did you receive the resistors I sent. Gary Hawkins ------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 16:10:41 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA29413 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 16:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.64]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA29399 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 16:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ab24369; 1 Jan 96 0:10 GMT Received: from abwillms.demon.co.uk ([158.152.70.175]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa09465; 1 Jan 96 0:09 GMT Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:39:06 From: "Alaric B. Williams" Message-Id: <1351@abwillms.demon.co.uk> To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Subject: fnrg: antigrav: FeHg X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d Lines: 18 Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've heard that mercury in iron containers can exhibit reactionless propulsion. And, presumably, at no energy cost. ? Anybody know anything about this? It sounds like it's been twisted in the telling a bit, but you never know! -- Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young In a world of magnets and miracles Our thoughts strayed constantly and without boundary The ringing of the division bell had begun Alaric B. Williams - alaric@abwillms.demon.co.uk Alaric the Antigrav - freenrg@abwillms.demon.co.uk From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 15:17:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA23662 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com (ix11.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA23656 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id PAA15023; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:02:57 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:02:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199512312302.PAA15023@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Magnetron Tuning To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: . . . > >Hi RWW! > Yes, I found it ... it was in a magazine called COMMUNICATIONS >QUARTERLY for Winter 1991. He uses a Toshiba 2M172A magnetron in the 13-cm >band (2304 MHz). About 10-20 watts of crystal-controlled power is >injected using a circulator to phase-lock it. He gets about 750 watts >out. He's been using it for EME (Earth-Moon-Earth, or moonbounce) >communication on that band. > This is not something I'd be building in the near future, but his >design is interesting! > >Zack > > 12/31/95 Zack, Sounds like something I would like to take a shot at. Any chance on getting a copy of the full article? If so, please send the article and copying and mailing expense. Many Thanks, Richard Wall 2690 S. R. 13 Switzerland, Florida 32259 From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 15:10:08 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA22896 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:09:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix12.ix.netcom.com (ix12.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA22880 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id PAA07844; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:09:59 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:09:59 -0800 Message-Id: <199512312309.PAA07844@ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall@ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Clarification on EM and Scalar waves. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > > > >On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > >> When we take a basic EM wave we have to start some where. My original >> post mentions that the E and M components vanish together meaning they >> cross zero together. The question is, since both are field strength >> vectors and vanish together, where has the energy been displaced? I >> think everyone appreciates Maxwell's E and B equations (B and E have >> identical wave form equations) and the fact that E and B are transverse >> waves perpendicular to the the direction of propagation and are in >> phase. Very simple question, just a plain EM wave propagating straight >> ahead, where is the energy at the zero crossing nodes? > >For whatever it's worth, and I'm not sure that anyone is still >interested, sitting in a pizza shop a few days ago it came to me where I >had gone wrong in my understanding of Maxwell's Equations, and why curl B >= E dot really does imply that the E and B are IN phase, not at 90 degrees. > >If anyone cares, I will reveal the proof. > >The question still remains "where does the energy go when they reach zero >strength simultaneously?" I refer to Halliday and Resnick (3rd edition), >Electromagnetic Fields by Wangsness (2nd ed), Feynman Lectures, and >Principles of Electrodynamics by Schwartz. Only this last book comes >close to giving a satisfactory answer to the question. But it does so in >terms of retarded potentials, which is a totally different way of seeing >things, and I give myself about 2 weeks to come to true understanding of >this. > >At which time I'll explain it to anyone that is still interested. > > >Charles > 12/31/95 Charles, I originally posted the query and I am most interested in your explanations. RWW From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 17:44:55 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA07992 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix7.ix.netcom.com (ix7.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA07978 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id RAA03134; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:43:17 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:43:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199601010143.RAA03134@ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: Rotating fields and such. To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robert; There is a picture of Tesla at the beginning of the '84 IEEE Tesla Centennial Symposium. The accompanying letter explains that the photo is the only one that Tesla wishes to have preserved. Tesla stated that the objects in the picture have a meaning which he at present cannot explain. The photo is one of Tesla seated on a chair reading a book. On the wall behind him is what looks like a pancake Tesla coil. The only thing I can conclude from the picture is that the coil on the wall is somehow helping Tesla read the book. BTW. Does anyone know if James or Kenneth Corum have email addresses? Dennis Lee You wrote: >This is the other half of the "frequency following effect" of the human >brain as used in neural entrainment devices. Anyone care to complete the circle >and see where the rotating field come into play in this? From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 21:50:43 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA00206 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix.ix.netcom.com (ix.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA00197 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA29392; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:49:07 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:49:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199601010549.VAA29392@ix.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Propulsion (fwd) To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Scott; What happens if you use oxygen with oil? Dennis Lee You wrote: >One other point: pure oxygen can not be used in a normal design - > remember "OXYGEN do not use oil" From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 19:06:09 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA15407 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 19:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA15391 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 19:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA25025; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:04:41 -0500 Date: 31 Dec 95 22:03:06 EST From: Rick Monteverde <76216.2421@compuserve.com> To: Subject: fnrg: antigrav: FeHg Message-ID: <960101030305_76216.2421_HHB41-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Alaric - You wrote: >I've heard that mercury in iron containers can exhibit >reactionless propulsion. >And, presumably, at no energy cost. > >? > >Anybody know anything about this? >It sounds like it's been twisted in the >telling a bit, but you never know! Sounds like one of the ancient vedic recipe for generating "siddiley", an antigravitic force or "vortex". Heat the mercury in an iron box, and something besides a lot of very poisonous vapor is supposed to happen. Unfortunately, the details of the machinery were supposed to have been handed down verbally to successive generations of engineers, and when the chain was broken, all we were left with is this simplified description, from which something has apparently been lost in translation anyway. Keith Thompson's "Alien Identities" is my current reference on this, although I've seen the story referred to in many sources over the years. Good luck, and if you ever try this, hold your breath or you'll find out why the phrase "mad as a hatter" was coined. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 22:37:57 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA03562 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix13.ix.netcom.com (ix13.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA03546 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id WAA03903; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:34:49 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:34:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199601010634.WAA03903@ix13.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: fnrg Resonance To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Michael; I've read somewhere that scalar waves can be used to extract energy (or heat) out of a volume. Dennis Lee You wrote: >>By this I mean, what is the possibility of tuning into the >>resonance of say something that is frozen. Does it not make >>sense to try create a "micro-type-of-fridge"? >in regard to resonance, it is a state for the maximum transfer and >manifestation of energy. >energy in the em sense increases heat... > >just won't work for refri\geration > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 23:06:26 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA05575 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix11.ix.netcom.com (ix11.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA05564 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA17963; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:03:53 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:03:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199601010703.XAA17963@ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: Re: To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg; I believe that at least one O/U battery recharging design pulses the electrolyte at its' ion acoustic resonant frequency. This causes zero point energy to ortho-rotate into our dimension. This system used electrolytic batteries. Another way to create a self organizing interaction with the zero point energy is to abruptly buck opposing magnetic fields. Dennis Lee You wrote: >for info Adams Motor...... Have construction manual and other >details......Adams reports over unity power generation as back EmF >recharging nicad pwr source.......have NOT been able to duplicate >results!!!!!!.........Have over 20 years experience as Electronics >Engineer/Designer........Have however several strange results in switch >mode PSU design which suggests we don't fully understand >ferro-magnetics...........What's your interest????????/ > From freenrg-list-owner@eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 23:14:04 1995 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA06057 for freenrg-list-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix4.ix.netcom.com (ix4.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA06052 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id XAA01594; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:12:32 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:12:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199601010712.XAA01594@ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: atech@ix.netcom.com (dennis lee ) Subject: Re: fnrg: merry To: freenrg-list@eskimo.com Sender: owner-freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill; You'd think that we'd have enough nuclear weapons to blast just about anything into smithereens. All we need are, to get some people to look out for the comets, and figure out a delivery system. I just saw a show about this. There are more people behind a Macdonald's counter than are looking for comets. Dennis Lee You wrote: >Out beyond Pluto may be a massive object. This mass, which here we name >"X", disrupts the Oort cloud and launches periodic storms of comets >whose impacts may have caused mass extinctions in earth's history.