From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 06:24:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08920; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 06:21:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 06:21:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000101082218.006dfd84 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 08:22:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991231115827.0079d330 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19991231090919.006dbe18 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991231115827.0079d330 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"l04yd.0.IB2.brWRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:20 PM 12/31/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: Robin wrote: >>Is it possible that the primarily horizontal motion of the fluid produced by >>a magnetic stirrer doesn't sufficiently prevent thermal stratification? >***{I haven't seen a lot of magnetic stirrers, but the ones I have seen, >including the one in the Magnum 350 pump, operate like squirrel cage >blowers: the blades rotate in the horizontal plane, hurling fluid out >horizontally, but the fluid that is hurled outward horizontally is replaced >by fluid that is sucked down vertically into the center of the impeller. >Thus thermal stratification would seem to be unlikely in a cell that had >this type of stirrer sitting on the bottom. --MJ}*** The standard chem lab magnetic stirrer (which I use) consists of a featureless oblong Teflon encapsulated magnet that is placed in the bottom of the vessel to be stirred. The vessel is then positioned above the stirrer drive which is commonly just a magnet attached to a motor. In my case the stir bar is actually a rod with spherically rounded ends. It's 2.5 cm long and about .7 cm in diameter. This type of stirrer sounds like it might just allow horizontal stratification but, even at modest speeds (I used 9 revs/sec), it appears to create a very thorough homogenizing effect throughout the cell. I base this opinion upon the appearance of the cell before and after the stirrer is energized while electrolysis is underway in the cell. Without the stirrer, the thick stream of hydrogen bubbles from the cathode rises straight up in a column to the surface of the electrolyte. When you turn on the stirrer, you immediately see these bubbles drawn down towards the spinning stir bar and, within a second or two, the entire cell becomes uniformly opaque with the apparently well-distributed bubbles. BTW, recall that my observed cooling rates were only slightly different without the stirrer. (e.g. ~28 watts with and ~25 watts without). Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 08:43:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06577; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:41:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:41:36 -0800 Message-ID: <386E5937.1E3F bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 11:44:55 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lkl6w3.0.cc1.0vYRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I haven't followed this thread too closely; but, there was a recent TV program which discussed pollen evidence. Seems that pollen was found on the shroud which placed it in Israel around 1 CE. Also, new evidence showed that certain bacteria have an affinity for linen and could have distorted the C14 dating. The show was on TLC this week. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 10:46:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16362; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:45:56 -0800 Message-ID: <12D3A20A.65F0 ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 1980 10:44:26 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <386E5937.1E3F@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sMcox1.0.a_3.ZjaRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > I haven't followed this thread too closely; but, there was a recent TV > program which discussed pollen evidence. Seems that pollen was found on > the shroud which placed it in Israel around 1 CE. Of course, this is impossible. Bringing up such irrelevant alleged facts can only mean that you are a Nazi Holocaust Revisionist. The known history of the shroud since the 14th century, the approximate date determined by the 1988 Carbon - 14 tests as when the flax for the shroud was harvested, does not include it's location in Israel at any time. So we must throw this result out along with the mountain of other evidence compiled over the last 100 years, that the shroud is actually what it appears to be (a photographic negative of Jesus Christ's crucified body). Sorry. > > Also, new evidence showed that certain bacteria have an affinity for > linen and could have distorted the C14 dating. Yes, this would set the date back maybe 300 years or so, posssibly, so let's go on another futile dead end goose chase, by making this strawman assertion that the Masonic/Templar/Snake Brotherhood interests can easily demolish. Of course, I'm being facetious, Terry. I'm working up a comprehensive response to Jones, who says he has lost interest in this subject, and suggests we "agree to disagree", again. That appears to be the characteristic cue from him that discussion of the given topic should cease, because if Jones doesn't want to talk about it, no one else should bring it up, either. So don't post anything further about the Shroud in favor of it's authenticity like you just did, as doing that might earn you the title of Nazi Holocaust Revisionist, somehow. Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 10:48:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17896; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:47:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:47:57 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <386E5937.1E3F bellsouth.net> References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:40:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process Resent-Message-ID: <"6eeeQ3.0.NN4.SlaRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I haven't followed this thread too closely; but, there was a recent TV >program which discussed pollen evidence. Seems that pollen was found on >the shroud which placed it in Israel around 1 CE. ***{Shock of shocks: over the centuries the shroud has been handled by hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Many of them were anthropologists who were comparing the linen to that used, for example, to wrap mummies. It would be absurd to suppose that they all washed their hands to avoid transferring pollen back and forth. Hence it would be a surprise if pollen from the 1st century could *not* be found on it. --MJ}*** > >Also, new evidence showed that certain bacteria have an affinity for >linen and could have distorted the C14 dating. ***{This is the "bioplastic coating* theory, to which I responded the other day: "For those with a morbid interest in this topic, another attack on the radiocarbon dating procedure merits mention: it has been alleged by a Dr. Leoncio Garza-Valdes that bacteria, for some unknown reason, slowly deposit a "bioplastic coating" on linen fibers. Thus with the passage of the centuries, there would have been an accumulation of "bioplastic" material around the fibers of the shroud. Since the carbon in that material would be of more recent origin that that of the shroud material itself, when the fibers were tested they would show more C14 than expected, and thus would date to a later time. [Op. cit., pg. 223-231.] Unfortunately (1) it is difficult to imagine why bacteria would do such a thing, and (2) even if you assume they did, the numbers don't work: the C14 in the bioplastic coating would have accumulated over the entire 2000 year span, and would average out to a date of about 1015 AD, while the C14 in the fibers themselves would date to roughly 30 AD. Result: it would be impossible to produce the measured date of 1325 AD." Anyway, this is my last comment on this topic. I'll let those of you who are still interested battle this out among yourselves. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >The show was on TLC this week. > >Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 12:50:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20134; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:48:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:48:59 -0800 Message-ID: <12D3BE7D.15C1 ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 1980 12:45:50 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AamH23.0.Ww4.xWcRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > > In any event the weights of the selected samples just don't add > > up. Here are the points to be refuted, and if you can, please do > > so and put the entire issue to rest: > > > > .. the Holy Shroud sample. It > > is in two pieces. The large piece weighs 40 mg; the small piece > > 14 mg. Damon and Donahue are going to keep the small piece secret, > > and place the big piece in the tube marked "A3 " after having > > previously taken from this tube n=B0 3 the sample officially > > labeled < > the British Museum, associated with a mummy of Cleopatra dating > > from the beginning of the 2nd century AD, originating from Thebes > > (EA 6707).>> In reality: Linen from the Beck collection of the > > Victoria and Albert Museum (14th-15th century, weight: 53.7 mg), > > which is going to take its place in the tube marked "A1". > > Unfortunately for the hoaxers, this nocturnal transformation from > > 40 mg to 50 and even 53 mg is inexplicable... > > ***{Turin microanalyst Giovanni Rigi performed the actual cutting of the > shroud. He removed a five-sided piece that was roughly 8 cm by 1.2 cm, Let's remember this figure, 8cm by 1.2cm > which was roughly twice the amount needed to meet the lab's sample size > requirements, Sample "size" is one thing, weight is quite another. Anyway I take it you mean weight. This would mean that the three labs should have gotten "roughly" twice the weight of shroud samples that they actually recieved. What happened to the remainder? > and he photographed the piece that he removed. With what kind of camera? If wasn't a polaroid who was in charge of developing this photo? What was the chain of custody of this camera/film? All unknown, right? This is why no peer reviewed journal would have published such a sloppily documented "experiment". > He then cut > off what he intended to be a 50 mg sample for each of the three labs, but > guessed wrong with the first sample cut, and only obtained 40 mg. He then > cut two more samples, making them enough larger to hit the 50 mg target. > Finally, he cut one more thin section, intended to bring the 40 mg sample > up to the 50 mg minimum. This final piece turned out to weigh about 14 mg. > Thus the 40 mg and 14 mg samples went into the vial that was handed to the > representative of the Arizona lab, and the 50 mg pieces went to Oxford and > Zurich. As soon as the various lab representatives got home, they > photographed their samples. Again, this adds up to only 154 mg for all three labs, when approximately twice this weight was cut from the shroud. Why not give the labs ALL of what had been cut, to beef up the certainty that the sample size was more than sufficient? What happened with the remainder? If there is a remainder, in whose custody is THAT, and how did it get there? > This was done because the radiocarbon dating > technique would destroy them. Here is what happened to those photos: > > (1) Arizona: the 40 mg piece was photographed, but only a small portion of > that photo turned out to be legible. Why didn't they use a polaroid? In the labs I've worked in, this is a standard piece of equipment. That way, if a picture doesn't turn out, you don't have to wait for a long development process to know about it before proceeding with your proposed tests. Apparently, then the Arizona lab didn't have a polaroid, but relied on a time consuming development process, and didn't wait for the development process to complete before plowing on ahead with their plans. Very unprofessional. > (2) The sample that went to Zurich was photographed from the back side of > the cloth, and thus did not show the distinctive herringbone weave. [There > were two sides, so the likelihood that the technician would select the > "wrong" side was 50%, assuming that he lacked the ability to foresee the > controversy that arose later.] So now we have some technician to blame for screwing things up there, when s/he most likely was just following a procedure written up by the "scientists". When I was a technician, that's what I was supposed to do (follow instructions). My other job was to ghost write procedures for engineers from Saudi Arabia who were "Literally Challenged" in the department of writing coherent english sentences, let alone experimental step by step instructions. I would write the procedure, they would get the credit. They were such nice friendly bosses however, I never complained, I got my own cubie just like they had to write this stuff. > > (3) The Oxford sample was photographed from the front, and did show the > distinctive herringbone weave. In addition, by a lucky coincidence, this > piece had a distinctive wrinkle across the weave, which permitted it to be > matched *exactly* back to the original 8 cm by 1.2 cm piece from which the > samples were cut. According to the "Nature" report, the original shroud sample was NOT 8 cm long, but 7*1 cm. This 7*1 cm sample was therefore substituted for the shroud PRIOR to being photographed by the Oxford lab. > > The arguments cited by you, above, rely on the fact that the Arizona sample > was in two pieces, and that the photo did not turn out, and on that basis > allege a conspiracy. Sorry, the conspiracy alleged began somewhere AFTER the sample taking at the shroud site, but before the distribution of the sub samples to the three labs, the argument rests on the diminishing weight and dimensions of the large sample cut from the shroud, and the increased weight of the subsample reported to have been recieved by Arizona. According to their original story: "On their return to Tucson in April 1988, Damon and he [Donohue] cut the Shroud sample into four fragments, weighing respectively: 13.86, 12.39, 14.27 and 11.83 mg. Total: **52.36 mg.** Donohue later had to turn around an admit that they were the ones who had received the small 14 mg piece, along with the 40 mg piece that Wilson claims was already cut by Riggi. So here we have a process that appears to show matter showing up out of nowhere, in violation of your "Continuity Principle", Mitchell. > Unfortunately for the authors of those arguments, the > Oxford sample was in one piece, the photo *did* turn out, and, even better, > it matches back perfectly to the photo of the strip from which it was cut. No, it matched the Shroud substitute, not the Shroud. > Since the date obtained at Oxford showed excellent agreement with the dates > obtained by Arizona and by Zurich, the explanation which best fits the > facts is the one given by those who actually cut the samples: the Arizona > sample was in two pieces because, until a piece had been cut out and > weighed, nobody knew what size piece would weigh the agreed-to 50 mg. Thus > the first piece cut was too small. > Then the Arizona researchers were either lying when they stated that they cut up a 50 mg sample arriving in one piece, or when they had to acknowledge, under pressure, that they recieved a sample in two pieces! Which is it? "Oxford, having stated that their Shroud sample was all of one piece, Wolfli turned to Jull of Arizona and said: <>, Jull answered! [1] > See how simple that was? Yeah, Mitchell, it is certainly easy to see that you did not bother to read any of Bonnet-Eymard's complaint, but instead try to spew the official garbage Wilson promoted, perhaps out of his fellowship with Tite. COERCION certainly could not be a factor there, could it? > > Of course, if you want to toss out the Arizona and Zurich samples, go > ahead. The Oxford sample can be matched back perfectly to the shroud, by > photographic evidence, and it dated to the 14 century, just like the other > two samples. No, the Oxford sample CANNOT be traced to the Shroud, for the reasons shown that the weights and sizes of the pieces do not match the weights and sizes taken from the shroud, and can only be matched with themselves. > > For the details, and the photos, see *The Blood and the Shroud*, by Ian > Wilson, pg.185-189.] Until you come up with a coherent statement by Wilson addressing the specifics of the complaint, the chances of me buying this book are as about as good as the chances I will buy a copy of "The Dogs of Capitalism". > > --MJ}*** > > > > > ...To think that we reconstituted the whole of this crime six > > years ago, published it and everyone learned of it. Yet nowhere > > has there been heard an echo of this, in any book or article, > > journal or review. = > > > > (and) > > > > In our Appeal to the "twenty-one" co-authors of the report on the > > carbon 14 dating of the Holy Shroud, published in the CRC n=B0 260 > > (January 1990, p. 23-26) [3], we put two questions. The first > > concerned < > substituted>>: < > precise, and your answer will be decisive. Either your report is > > erroneous: the sample n=B0 1 you dated did not come from a strip > > of 70 x 10 mm, and you must draw attention to the error. Or else > > your report is correct, in which case the 70 x 10 mm strip > > analyzed by you did not belong to the Holy Shroud, -- you were > > certainly the victim of a sample substitution, and your report > > wrongfully concludes that < > mediaeval>> > > > >(Bruno Bonnet-Eymard) > > ***{These arguments remind me of the "reasoning" employed by self-styled > "Holocaust revisionists" in an attempt to prove that the Holocaust never > happened. Balderdash. This is your last resort, huh? Now Bonnet-Eymard is the equivalent of a Nazi Holocaust Revisionist. Only you would make this kind of comparison, instead of adressing the argument. One does not have to pore over pages and pages of documents in order to find some insignificant error in the procedures described, the lies and cover stories jump out at you and stare you in the face. Of course, if one has his eyes closed and refuses to open them, nothing can be done about that. > What they do, in essence, is analyze each piece of Holocaust > evidence until they find some discrepancy, however small, and then toss the > evidence out in its entirety. If, for example, a survivor of Treblinka > gives thousands of pages of detailed testimony concerning what went on > there, they will search through that testimony until they find an error, > and then toss out *everything* the man said. Right, as The Man said, "there are none so blind as he who will not see". It is perfectly apparent why you have lost interest in this subject, if you don't have the upper hand in an argument, it's not an interesting argument. Fine, enjoy your state of blissful ignorance. Bye! Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 13:48:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19738; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <12D3C757.5A72 ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 1980 13:23:36 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Netscape 3.0 Y2k bug noted! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C-Oxe.0.Jq4.yHdRu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, vorts! Gee, it looks like I'll get to be one of the first to report a Y2K software glitch on Vortex! Netscape 3.0 when set to sort messages by date, now puts all messages recieved and sent after 12/31/99 to the very beginning of the stack, instead of tacking it to the end, at the bottom! Not too big an inconvenience I guess, but at least it proves that there is something to the y2k thing, no? Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 14:29:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12624; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:28:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:28:09 -0800 Message-ID: <386E7AC7.D95 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 14:08:08 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"arRrt1.0.A53.vzdRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi vorts, It looks like Netscape is resetting my windows/dos date back to 1984 when I email a message, actually. If this theory is correct, then this message will arrive at vortex with the Jan 04 1984 date stamp. Intersting... Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 14:44:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29188; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:42:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:42:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000b01bf54a9$7fcfe340$4445ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <12D3BE7D.15C1@ca-ois.com> Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:41:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fnh2r3.0.x77.LBeRu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim, I make no attempt to follow the convolutions of an argument that Mitchell Jones gets involved in, this case about the radiocarbon dating. In the end, I'm not even sure which side of the fence you are on. If you want a well-researched and carefully reasoned discussion of the DeMolay-Shroud scenario, I refer you once again to "The Second Messiah". It contains discussions of one Dr. Mills, who has studied the Shroud, with details of chemical processes that could have created the image as seen and whose characteristics fit the scenario developed. You will find this discussion ca. pages 160 in the book. There is also a careful accounting for details in the image and a rationale for the tortures of DeMolay which could have produced them. The fabric of the this reconstruction goes far beyond the quibbles over details of the carbon dating or pollen arguments. There is also a reconstruction of a "great secret" of freemasonry, ca. p. 218 "...freemasonry has come form a source that was ancient even to the first Jews...at the heart of this teaching is a love of truth and a natural tolerance that embraces all monotheistic religions as being parts of God's own greater truth...the strange reality if that the teachings of the Essenes in general, and Jesus in particular, dies away after the first crucifixion, leading to the...Dark Ages...following the second crucifixion (of DeMolay) these teachings spread back out into the world and there was a renaissance...The arrival of the Roman Catholic Church heralded the age of unreason, and the arrival of Freemasonry was the driving force that reawakened the world to the rights of the scientist and the social democrat...Neither is it a coincidence that the Essene words that repeatedly run through the Dead Sea Scrolls are truth, righteousness, judgement, knowledge and wisdom...the words used by Dimitri Mitrinovic, that 'Masonry has been the expression of Christianity for the last 2000 years' have been shown to be entirely accurate." The Knights Templar are a vital part of the Masonic story, but it is inaccurate to say that Masons trace their origin to the Knights Templar. The truth is much more complex than that. If you ask an ordinary lidge member about all this stuff, you are apt to get a blank stare, for I suspect few have ever dug into the roots and history of Freemasonry, any more than an ordinary churchgoer is a theologian or biblical scholar. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Ostrowski To: Sent: Friday, January 04, 1980 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > In any event the weights of the selected samples just don't add > > > up. Here are the points to be refuted, and if you can, please do > > > so and put the entire issue to rest: > > > > > > .. the Holy Shroud sample. It > > > is in two pieces. The large piece weighs 40 mg; the small piece > > > 14 mg. Damon and Donahue are going to keep the small piece secret, > > > and place the big piece in the tube marked "A3 " after having > > > previously taken from this tube n=B0 3 the sample officially > > > labeled < > > the British Museum, associated with a mummy of Cleopatra dating > > > from the beginning of the 2nd century AD, originating from Thebes > > > (EA 6707).>> In reality: Linen from the Beck collection of the > > > Victoria and Albert Museum (14th-15th century, weight: 53.7 mg), > > > which is going to take its place in the tube marked "A1". > > > Unfortunately for the hoaxers, this nocturnal transformation from > > > 40 mg to 50 and even 53 mg is inexplicable... > > > > ***{Turin microanalyst Giovanni Rigi performed the actual cutting of the > > shroud. He removed a five-sided piece that was roughly 8 cm by 1.2 cm, > > Let's remember this figure, 8cm by 1.2cm > > > which was roughly twice the amount needed to meet the lab's sample size > > requirements, > > Sample "size" is one thing, weight is quite another. Anyway I take it > you mean weight. > > This would mean that the three labs should have gotten "roughly" twice > the weight of shroud samples that they actually recieved. What happened > to the remainder? > > > and he photographed the piece that he removed. > > With what kind of camera? If wasn't a polaroid who was in charge of > developing this photo? What was the chain of custody of this > camera/film? All unknown, right? This is why no peer reviewed journal > would have published such a sloppily documented "experiment". > > > He then cut > > off what he intended to be a 50 mg sample for each of the three labs, but > > guessed wrong with the first sample cut, and only obtained 40 mg. He then > > cut two more samples, making them enough larger to hit the 50 mg target. > > Finally, he cut one more thin section, intended to bring the 40 mg sample > > up to the 50 mg minimum. This final piece turned out to weigh about 14 mg. > > Thus the 40 mg and 14 mg samples went into the vial that was handed to the > > representative of the Arizona lab, and the 50 mg pieces went to Oxford and > > Zurich. As soon as the various lab representatives got home, they > > photographed their samples. > > Again, this adds up to only 154 mg for all three labs, when > approximately twice this weight was cut from the shroud. Why not give > the labs ALL of what had been cut, to beef up the certainty that the > sample size was more than sufficient? What happened with the remainder? > If there is a remainder, in whose custody is THAT, and how did it get > there? > > > This was done because the radiocarbon dating > > technique would destroy them. Here is what happened to those photos: > > > > (1) Arizona: the 40 mg piece was photographed, but only a small portion of > > that photo turned out to be legible. > > Why didn't they use a polaroid? In the labs I've worked in, this is a > standard piece of equipment. That way, if a picture doesn't turn out, > you don't have to wait for a long development process to know about it > before proceeding with your proposed tests. Apparently, then the Arizona > lab didn't have a polaroid, but relied on a time consuming development > process, and didn't wait for the development process to complete before > plowing on ahead with their plans. Very unprofessional. > > > (2) The sample that went to Zurich was photographed from the back side of > > the cloth, and thus did not show the distinctive herringbone weave. [There > > were two sides, so the likelihood that the technician would select the > > "wrong" side was 50%, assuming that he lacked the ability to foresee the > > controversy that arose later.] > > So now we have some technician to blame for screwing things up there, > when s/he most likely was just following a procedure written up by the > "scientists". When I was a technician, that's what I was supposed to do > (follow instructions). My other job was to ghost write procedures for > engineers from Saudi Arabia who were "Literally Challenged" in the > department of writing coherent english sentences, let alone experimental > step by step instructions. I would write the procedure, they would get > the credit. They were such nice friendly bosses however, I never > complained, I got my own cubie just like they had to write this stuff. > > > > > (3) The Oxford sample was photographed from the front, and did show the > > distinctive herringbone weave. In addition, by a lucky coincidence, this > > piece had a distinctive wrinkle across the weave, which permitted it to be > > matched *exactly* back to the original 8 cm by 1.2 cm piece from which the > > samples were cut. > > According to the "Nature" report, the original shroud sample was NOT 8 > cm long, but 7*1 cm. This 7*1 cm sample was therefore substituted for > the shroud PRIOR to being photographed by the Oxford lab. > > > > > The arguments cited by you, above, rely on the fact that the Arizona sample > > was in two pieces, and that the photo did not turn out, and on that basis > > allege a conspiracy. > > Sorry, the conspiracy alleged began somewhere AFTER the sample taking at > the shroud site, but before the distribution of the sub samples to the > three labs, the argument rests on the diminishing weight and dimensions > of the large sample cut from the shroud, and the increased weight of the > subsample reported to have been recieved by Arizona. > According to their original story: > > "On their return to Tucson in April 1988, Damon and he [Donohue] cut the > Shroud > sample into four fragments, weighing respectively: 13.86, 12.39, 14.27 > and 11.83 mg. Total: **52.36 mg.** > > Donohue later had to turn around an admit that they were the ones who > had received > the small 14 mg piece, along with the 40 mg piece that Wilson claims was > already cut by Riggi. So here we have a process that appears to show > matter showing up out of nowhere, in violation of your "Continuity > Principle", Mitchell. > > > > Unfortunately for the authors of those arguments, the > > Oxford sample was in one piece, the photo *did* turn out, and, even better, > > it matches back perfectly to the photo of the strip from which it was cut. > > No, it matched the Shroud substitute, not the Shroud. > > > Since the date obtained at Oxford showed excellent agreement with the dates > > obtained by Arizona and by Zurich, the explanation which best fits the > > facts is the one given by those who actually cut the samples: the Arizona > > sample was in two pieces because, until a piece had been cut out and > > weighed, nobody knew what size piece would weigh the agreed-to 50 mg. Thus > > the first piece cut was too small. > > > > Then the Arizona researchers were either lying when they stated that > they cut up a 50 mg sample arriving in one piece, or when they had to > acknowledge, under pressure, that they recieved a sample in two pieces! > Which is it? > > "Oxford, having stated that their Shroud > sample was all of one piece, Wolfli turned to Jull of > Arizona and said: < Oxford nor I who received a sample in two pieces, it must be > you? > > - Well... yes>>, Jull answered! [1] > > > > See how simple that was? > > Yeah, Mitchell, it is certainly easy to see that you did not bother to > read any of Bonnet-Eymard's complaint, but instead try to spew the > official garbage Wilson promoted, perhaps out of his fellowship with > Tite. COERCION certainly could not be a factor there, could it? > > > > > Of course, if you want to toss out the Arizona and Zurich samples, go > > ahead. The Oxford sample can be matched back perfectly to the shroud, by > > photographic evidence, and it dated to the 14 century, just like the other > > two samples. > > No, the Oxford sample CANNOT be traced to the Shroud, for the reasons > shown that the weights and sizes of the pieces do not match the weights > and sizes taken from the shroud, and can only be matched with > themselves. > > > > > For the details, and the photos, see *The Blood and the Shroud*, by Ian > > Wilson, pg.185-189.] > > Until you come up with a coherent statement by Wilson addressing the > specifics of the complaint, the chances of me buying this book are as > about as good as the chances I will buy a copy of "The Dogs of > Capitalism". > > > > > --MJ}*** > > > > > > > > ...To think that we reconstituted the whole of this crime six > > > years ago, published it and everyone learned of it. Yet nowhere > > > has there been heard an echo of this, in any book or article, > > > journal or review. = > > > > > > (and) > > > > > > In our Appeal to the "twenty-one" co-authors of the report on the > > > carbon 14 dating of the Holy Shroud, published in the CRC n=B0 260 > > > (January 1990, p. 23-26) [3], we put two questions. The first > > > concerned < > > substituted>>: < > > precise, and your answer will be decisive. Either your report is > > > erroneous: the sample n=B0 1 you dated did not come from a strip > > > of 70 x 10 mm, and you must draw attention to the error. Or else > > > your report is correct, in which case the 70 x 10 mm strip > > > analyzed by you did not belong to the Holy Shroud, -- you were > > > certainly the victim of a sample substitution, and your report > > > wrongfully concludes that < > > mediaeval>> > > > > > >(Bruno Bonnet-Eymard) > > > > ***{These arguments remind me of the "reasoning" employed by self-styled > > "Holocaust revisionists" in an attempt to prove that the Holocaust never > > happened. > > Balderdash. This is your last resort, huh? Now Bonnet-Eymard is the > equivalent of a Nazi Holocaust Revisionist. Only you would make this > kind of comparison, instead of adressing the argument. > > One does not have to pore over pages and pages of documents in order to > find some insignificant error in the procedures described, the lies and > cover stories jump out at you and stare you in the face. Of course, if > one has his eyes closed and refuses to open them, nothing can be done > about that. > > > What they do, in essence, is analyze each piece of Holocaust > > evidence until they find some discrepancy, however small, and then toss the > > evidence out in its entirety. If, for example, a survivor of Treblinka > > gives thousands of pages of detailed testimony concerning what went on > > there, they will search through that testimony until they find an error, > > and then toss out *everything* the man said. > > Right, as The Man said, "there are none so blind as he who will not > see". It is perfectly apparent why you have lost interest in this > subject, if you don't have the upper hand in an argument, it's not an > interesting argument. Fine, enjoy your state of blissful ignorance. Bye! > > Jim Ostrowski > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 15:50:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA01872; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:49:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:49:53 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <0.28a2ec6c.259fec9c aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:49:48 EST Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"XdBiS3.0.AT.WAfRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/1/00 2:29:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, jimostr ca-ois.com writes: > Subj: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! > Date: 1/1/00 2:29:16 PM Pacific Standard Time > From: jimostr ca-ois.com (Jim Ostrowski) > Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Hi vorts, > > It looks like Netscape is resetting my windows/dos date back to 1984 > when I email a message, actually. If this theory is correct, then this > message will arrive at vortex with the Jan 04 1984 date stamp. > > Intersting... > > Jim Ostrowski Nope, as can be seen above, date is correct. The path info which I snipped is OK also. Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 16:50:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21278; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:46:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:46:46 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 19:40:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20000102004008828.AAA198 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"2323Z3.0.OC5.p_fRu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >The standard chem lab magnetic stirrer (which I use) consists of a >featureless oblong Teflon encapsulated magnet that is placed in the bottom >of the vessel to be stirred. The vessel is then positioned above the >stirrer drive which is commonly just a magnet attached to a motor. In my >case the stir bar is actually a rod with spherically rounded ends. It's >2.5 cm long and about .7 cm in diameter. > >This type of stirrer sounds like it might just allow horizontal >stratification but, even at modest speeds (I used 9 revs/sec), it appears >to create a very thorough homogenizing effect throughout the cell. I base >this opinion upon the appearance of the cell before and after the stirrer >is energized while electrolysis is underway in the cell. Without the >stirrer, the thick stream of hydrogen bubbles from the cathode rises >straight up in a column to the surface of the electrolyte. When you turn >on the stirrer, you immediately see these bubbles drawn down towards the >spinning stir bar and, within a second or two, the entire cell becomes >uniformly opaque with the apparently well-distributed bubbles. > >BTW, recall that my observed cooling rates were only slightly different >without the stirrer. (e.g. ~28 watts with and ~25 watts without). Hi Scott, I don't know if this is even possible, but since there are magnets moving at ~500RPM within a conducting electrolytic medium, have you checked to see if there is a voltage generated within the cell with the cell leads unhooked from the power supply and the stirrer operating? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 16:53:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21288; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:46:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:46:47 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 19:47:04 -0500 Message-ID: <20000102004704796.AAA257 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"7RTNB2.0.YC5.q_fRu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince writes: >Nope, as can be seen above, date is correct. The path info which I snipped is >OK also. > >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas Hi Vince, Jim et. al. Below is the previous message that I got from Jim via Vortex which is not correctly time/date stamped. Everything else that I've been getting has been correctly stamped, including a later message from Jim. Maybe just a one-time, temporary glitch? Knuke -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from mx2.eskimo.com ([204.122.16.49]) by mail.lcia.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52462U2500L250S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:52:03 -0500 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19738; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <12D3C757.5A72 ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 1980 13:23:36 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Netscape 3.0 Y2k bug noted! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C-Oxe.0.Jq4.yHdRu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Gnorts, vorts! Gee, it looks like I'll get to be one of the first to report a Y2K software glitch on Vortex! Netscape 3.0 when set to sort messages by date, now puts all messages recieved and sent after 12/31/99 to the very beginning of the stack, instead of tacking it to the end, at the bottom! Not too big an inconvenience I guess, but at least it proves that there is something to the y2k thing, no? Jim Ostrowski Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 16:59:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18425; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:58:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:58:51 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Jim Ostrowski Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 16:59:18 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <386E7AC7.D95 ca-ois.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"ZTK7v1.0.mV4.ABgRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 01-Jan-00, Jim Ostrowski, wrote: >Hi vorts, >It looks like Netscape is resetting my windows/dos date back to 1984 >when I email a message, actually. If this theory is correct, then this >message will arrive at vortex with the Jan 04 1984 date stamp. >Intersting... >Jim Ostrowski Correct. That's the way that I received it, here. -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.futurehealth.org/roshi.htm http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/ http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 18:30:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07434; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:29:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:29:30 -0800 Message-ID: <386EB71A.1EC2 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 18:25:30 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <12D3BE7D.15C1@ca-ois.com> <000b01bf54a9$7fcfe340$4445ccd1@mikecarr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hlC2i2.0.4q1.AWhRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike C wrote: > > Jim, > > I make no attempt to follow the convolutions of an argument that Mitchell > Jones gets involved in, this case about the radiocarbon dating. In the end, > I'm not even sure which side of the fence you are on. You need only ask the question you think needs answering for you to know "What side of the fence" I'm "on", Mike. I need to know what is on either side of the fence. > > If you want a well-researched and carefully reasoned discussion of the > DeMolay-Shroud scenario, I refer you once again to "The Second Messiah". It > contains discussions of one Dr. Mills, who has studied the Shroud, with > details of chemical processes that could have created the image as seen and > whose characteristics fit the scenario developed. You will find this > discussion ca. pages 160 in the book. There is also a careful accounting for > details in the image and a rationale for the tortures of DeMolay which could > have produced them. If this is, so then why is there only one example of a tortured person producing a photographic negative of him/herself onto their burial garments? > > The fabric of the this reconstruction goes far beyond the quibbles over > details of the carbon dating or pollen arguments. I don't consider the allegations of carbon dating sample subtitution to be a matter of mere quibbling over irrelevant detail. It is a matter uf utmost significance if science was perverted as Bonnet-Eymard's paper suggests. > There is also a reconstruction of a "great secret" of freemasonry, ca. p. > 218 "...freemasonry has come form a source that was ancient even to the > first Jews...at the heart of this teaching is a love of truth and a natural > tolerance that embraces all monotheistic religions as being parts of God's > own greater truth...the strange reality if that the teachings of the Essenes > in general, and Jesus in particular, dies away after the first crucifixion, > leading to the...Dark Ages...following the second crucifixion (of DeMolay) The same sort of allegorical metaphorizing can be taken in a completely different direction and I would prefer to avoid an argument with you about the merits of our respective religious beliefs, Mike. Until we see with our own eyes certain mysteries revealed we are innocent if either of our interpretations are in error. I have seen neither visions of Christ nor DeMolay, so I can't say I KNOW you are wrong. My convictions are a result of carefull study, as I'm sure yours are as well. I'm glad you believe there is a God, and whatever you care to name your deity I have the utmost respect for your honoring that Name as best you know how. I'm sure you have as much pity as I do for helpless souls such as Jones who would rather have God curse them for their mean spirited cynicism, than to accept the fact of His loving existence, just so they could be proven right in their conclusion that the belief in a Creator (Architect?) God is the thorn in the side of humanity rather than it's Comforter. > these teachings spread back out into the world and there was a > renaissance...The arrival of the Roman Catholic Church heralded the age of > unreason, and the arrival of Freemasonry was the driving force that > reawakened the world to the rights of the scientist and the social > democrat. Oh please... NOT SOCIAL DEMOCRATS!! (argh...do I hafta listen to this??? Ok, let's hear it...(sigh) ;-) ..Neither is it a coincidence that the Essene words that repeatedly > run through the Dead Sea Scrolls are truth, righteousness, judgement, > knowledge and wisdom...the words used by Dimitri Mitrinovic, that 'Masonry > has been the expression of Christianity for the last 2000 years' have been > shown to be entirely accurate." Not in Jimmy Faye Bakker Swag-heart looney toon "Christianity" one sees on TV, I hope. If if I thought for one minute that's what Christianity was, I'd join your order and swear not to tell any secrets on pain of having my tonngue cut out, and then go out and Chase them Jimmy Fayes at the point of my Sacred Compass or whatever it is you guys use to stick people with. > > The Knights Templar are a vital part of the Masonic story, but it is > inaccurate to say that Masons trace their origin to the Knights Templar. The > truth is much more complex than that. If you ask an ordinary lidge member > about all this stuff, you are apt to get a blank stare, for I suspect few > have ever dug into the roots and history of Freemasonry, any more than an > ordinary churchgoer is a theologian or biblical scholar. I have no doubt that some people are better off not knowing some things than they would be if they knew them. But, like the Judge says, "Ignorance (of the `law' in thier case) is no excuse!". Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 20:01:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26868; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 19:58:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 19:58:12 -0800 Message-ID: <386ECB24.1B13522 carrollsweb.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 21:51:00 -0600 From: Rod & Mary Eastman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <386E5937.1E3F@bellsouth.net> <12D3A20A.65F0@ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zCF0N2.0.gZ6.KpiRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I believe the shroud to be genuine, not a fake, and I also believ from all thew evidence collected concerning carbon dating that the basic foundations of science is itself flawed, as is man and his hostile nature towards that which he cannot see or touch. i cannot see you, yet you exist. i have not found you to be open minded or fair, you are very biased, not to mention arrogant without cause. Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > I haven't followed this thread too closely; but, there was a recent TV > > program which discussed pollen evidence. Seems that pollen was found on > > the shroud which placed it in Israel around 1 CE. > > Of course, this is impossible. Bringing up such irrelevant alleged facts > can only mean that you are a Nazi Holocaust Revisionist. The known > history of the shroud since the 14th century, the approximate date > determined by the 1988 Carbon - 14 tests as when the flax for the shroud > was harvested, does not include it's location in Israel at any time. So > we must throw this result out along with the mountain of other evidence > compiled over the last 100 years, that the shroud is actually what it > appears to be (a photographic negative of Jesus Christ's crucified > body). Sorry. > > > > > Also, new evidence showed that certain bacteria have an affinity for > > linen and could have distorted the C14 dating. > > Yes, this would set the date back maybe 300 years or so, posssibly, so > let's go on another futile dead end goose chase, by making this strawman > assertion that the Masonic/Templar/Snake Brotherhood interests can > easily demolish. > > Of course, I'm being facetious, Terry. I'm working up a comprehensive > response to Jones, who says he has lost interest in this subject, and > suggests we "agree to disagree", again. That appears to be the > characteristic cue from him that discussion of the given topic should > cease, because if Jones doesn't want to talk about it, no one else > should bring it up, either. So don't post anything further about the > Shroud in favor of it's authenticity like you just did, as doing that > might earn you the title of Nazi Holocaust Revisionist, somehow. > > Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 21:07:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19634; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:06:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:06:39 -0800 Message-ID: <386EDC80.2708 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 21:05:04 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud Image Formation Process References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <386E5937.1E3F@bellsouth.net> <12D3A20A.65F0@ca-ois.com> <386ECB24.1B13522@carrollsweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"96y0L2.0.ho4.UpjRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rod & Mary Eastman wrote: > > I believe the shroud to be genuine, not a fake, and I also believ from all > thew evidence collected concerning carbon dating that the basic foundations of > science > is itself flawed, as is man and his hostile nature towards that which he > cannot see > or touch. i cannot see you, yet you exist. i have not found you to be open > minded > or fair, you are very biased, not to mention arrogant without cause. > Golly, Rod and Mary, I'm sorry if I offended y'all, above all things I do not want to seem arrogant, below I was just being facetious with my old friend Terry, here. If you have been following this thread and reading it carefully, you would know that I am a Christian and believe in the Shroud's authenticity too. I have been arguing with Mitchell Jones, an all out atheist about a variety of subjects, this about the Shroud of Turin being the latest in a string of debates with him going back more than a year. Sometimes, I admit I get quite hard nosed and even sarcastic when confronted with his cynical attitude, but I never dreamed this would be interpreted as being biased and "arrogant without cause". The cause is that of Christ, and again, if I offended you in the course of the defense of that Cause, I am sorry, and will try to avoid doing so in the future. You have my humblest regards. I am your servant in Christ, Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 23:32:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA31068; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:26:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:26:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <386E7AC7.D95 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:41:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! Resent-Message-ID: <"30jOG3.0.Mb7.xslRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On 01-Jan-00, Jim Ostrowski, wrote: >>Hi vorts, > >>It looks like Netscape is resetting my windows/dos date back to 1984 >>when I email a message, actually. If this theory is correct, then this >>message will arrive at vortex with the Jan 04 1984 date stamp. > >>Intersting... > >>Jim Ostrowski > >Correct. That's the way that I received it, here. ***{Interesting. The date came through correctly on my machine (a Mac), yet it came through incorrectly on Knuke's machine (I think), and Jim, whom I know to have a PC, is also having a problem. Is this a Mac-PC thing? --MJ}*** > >-- > .-. .-. > / \ .-. .-. / \ > / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ >-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- > RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / > \ / `-' `-' \ / > `-' `-' >http://www.futurehealth.org/roshi.htm >http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html >http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/ >http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 02:05:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA27906; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 02:04:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 02:04:41 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:14:43 -0500 Message-ID: <20000102101443796.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3FOKJ.0.yp6.vAoRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch wrote, writes, or may write someday soon: >***{Interesting. The date came through correctly on my machine (a Mac), yet >it came through incorrectly on Knuke's machine (I think), and Jim, whom I >know to have a PC, is also having a problem. Is this a Mac-PC thing? >--MJ}*** No, the incorrectly stamped one was just prior to the one the Chuck was talking about. I had a couple of posts like that, but everything seems to have cleared up without my doing anything. It did occur to me however, that the fix that I used on my machine makes it "Y2K operational" as opposed to fully "Y2K compliant". The documentation for the patch explained that instead of an actual BIOS patch that would permanently change a flashBIOS chip's program, a device driver is loaded by my config.sys file (yes, I'm still running DOS 6.22), and used to hook any calls to the OS date registers. This device driver doesn't hook any of the calls to the real time clock, so the patch isn't perfect, but should work for well behaved programs. I also remember reading that there were various different approaches to the Y2K patch that could be implemented on various different architectures that would behave in a similar fashion, meaning, I now think, that depending on how heavily the time and date signature is used in the routing of message packets through the internet, the internet itself would be slowed somewhat by the extra hooking and redirecting code. Hope I'm wrong about that, of course, but it would make sense. Windoze NT is used by quite a few servers, and I think it was patched. Any webmeisters out there that have the exact snore on this? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 02:51:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA01564; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 02:50:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 02:50:50 -0800 Sender: jack mail2.centurytel.net Message-ID: <386F3BE8.32CC8F5F mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 11:52:08 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! References: <386E7AC7.D95 ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"RDkXn2.0.IO.AsoRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 01-Jan-00, Jim Ostrowski, wrote: It looks like Netscape is resetting my windows/dos date back to 1984 when I email a message ... Jim Ostrowski Mitchell Jones wrote: ***{Interesting. The date came through correctly on my machine (a Mac), yet it came through incorrectly on Knuke's machine (I think), and Jim, whom I know to have a PC, is also having a problem. Is this a Mac-PC thing? --MJ}*** Hi Mitchell, Could the following from one of your recent posts have something to do with this? Jack Smith "GARY NORTH's Y2K LINKS and FORUMS The Year 2000 Problem: The Year the Earth Stands Still ... Today, in almost every published article on y2k, the journalist feels compelled to include this: "The problem exists because programmers for three decades used the last two digits of the century as substitutes for all four digits. Thus, 1967 is written 67, and 1999 is written 99. The problem will come in 2000 when unrepaired computer programs will read 00 as 1900." Actually, unrepaired IBM-clone personal computers will revert to either 1980 or 1984 ..." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 05:37:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA22153; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:33:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:33:12 -0800 Message-ID: <007101bf552e$3ac4dd20$9b441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 06:31:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"OdF41.0.3Q5.NErRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You might try this, Colin, Cut some copper tubing into 4 pieces 1.0 meter long, and insert the ends of the two pairs into blocks of "Lucite" plastic to make two "Lecher Lines". The capacitance, C = 12.07*k*eo/log D/r (farads/meter) where k ~ = 1.0, eo = 8.84E-12 farad/meter. The inductance, L = 10E-7(k*uo + 9.210*log D/r (henry/meter) Make the separation D, over the radius r ratio 10:1 to keep things simple, say 1.0 inch diameter (silver plated?)copper tubing separated 5.0 inches center-to-center. Then C ~ = 1.06E-10 Farad/Meter, and L ~ = 9.210E-7 Henry/Meter: Impedance, Z = (L/C)^1/2 ~ = 93.21 ohms Pulse velocity ~ = 1(L*C)^1/2 ~ = 1.012E8 Meter/Sec To-and-Fro Oscillation Frequency ~ = 1.012E8 Excursions/Sec (Hz) Now you charge up a capacitor to energy E = 0.5 C*V^2 and use it to put pulses on the tubes in such a way that they will be traversing the double open-ended delay lines formed by the tubes, in phase and occurring at the same points at the same time. You should see a (simulated) magnetogravity force between them, if you do it right. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 07:19:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10305; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 07:17:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 07:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000102102010.006c9a18 postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 10:20:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Beyond the picture In-Reply-To: References: <3865A949.28C4 ca-ois.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"R8o7l2.0.xW2.mlsRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I didn't start the "picture" discussion, but I hope this response to some valid concerns presented by Mr. Jones will form a satisfactory conclusion without encumbering much more Vortex space. I post rarely and concisly, hoping the readership will bear with me when I do. >>> ***{I remember a story from New York City, which came over the newswire >>> many years ago. It seems that a Christian woman was standing on the subway >>> platform with her two young children, a boy and a girl, as a train >>> approached. She had just come from church, where they had both accepted the >>> Lord, so she knew that they were saved. Result: she pushed them both off >>> the platform onto the tracks just before the train passed by. Both were >>> killed, and, when the police asked her why she did it, she explained that >>> life in Heaven was better than life on Earth, and that they would live >>> forever once there. Thus she had not murdered them; she had granted them >>> immortality. If she had waited, she said, they might have fallen into sin, >>> died without repenting, and spent eternity in the Lake of Fire. Therefore, >>> as a loving parent, she had to do what she did. --MJ}*** >> >>This sort of nutcase thinking is in no way in alignment with any >>"Christian" doctrine >>I have ever heard of. > >***{I clipped that article out and carried it around in my billfold for ten >or fifteen years, until the letters literally wore off of the thing and it >became illegible. During that time I discussed it with dozens of people, >and what I discovered in those conversations was that virtually all of them >shared her premises. That is, they agreed that the murdered children would >go to Heaven, and they agreed that, if they had not been murdered, there >was a chance that they would have fallen into sin, died without repenting, >and would have gone to Hell. Result: they were utterly unable, in any >discussion of the subject, to give any logical reason for behaving >differently than she did. Nevertheless, none of them agreed that she should >have murdered her children. They simply refused to accept the logical >implications of their own beliefs. (No surprise there: logic is seldom a >matter of concern for people who believe in "miracles.") --MJ}*** There are two points of logic that make these murders wrong: 1. These children were deprived of their opportunity to "lay up treasure in heaven"(Mat6:19). Jesus challanges us to do that. There is a saying you may have heard that goes something like this: better to be a gate keeper in Heaven than a prince in hell. That may be true, but what is also true is that it is better to be a prince in heaven than a gate keeper in heaven. Those murdered children were doomed to be gatekeepers or worse because of there mother's poor logic and poor understanding of her faith. Those children entered Heaven with practically no treasure, no rewards or honors for service to God's kingdom, i.e. no privileges. They were deprived of the opportunity to experience the full richness of a heavenly eternal existance. This is why abortion is even worse than murder! 2. The Bible says that our names were written in the Lambs Book of Life before the foundation of the earth(1Pet 1:4, Rev 13:8, Rev 17:8). God already knew if these children would accept or reject His gift of salvation through His Son Jesus, whether they would choose life or choose death. This stupid mother didn't save them from anything! It is unfortunate and pathetic that during your 15 years of searching you failed to encounter a single Christian knowledgable in this area. People often confuse the acts of laying up treasure in Heaven with the gift of salvation. One cannot earn his way into Heaven. Our sins must be paid for,but it is a high price that none of us can afford to pay. Jesus earned the right to pay them off with His death and resurrection. He has the wealth to pay off everones sin debt. If someone were to give you a check for a million bucks, that check is worth nothing unless two things happen: 1. The check writer must have the funds. 2. The check receiver must cash it. If I wrote you a check for a million bucks you would probably throw it away. You would rightfully figure that I wasn't good for it. But, Jesus has the stuff. Many people go through life with His check in their pocket, never cashing it because they don't think Jesus has the stuff, or they dont't think they are good enough to go to Heaven. They aren't good enough. Jesus makes us good enough because He has the power. Jesus has a check for everbody. Jesus has the power to rescue anyone who chooses to be rescued. God already knows, because He chooses to know, if Mitchell Jones or anyone else will respond to the rescue plan put into effect by the sacrifice of his Son Jesus (who was God in flesh). It's just that we don't know if they will. But then, that is not our business. It is my job as a Christian to tell people what I know. What they do with it is between them and God. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 08:24:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29072; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:23:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:23:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <386F3BE8.32CC8F5F mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <386E7AC7.D95 ca-ois.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:19:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! Resent-Message-ID: <"QLVSx1.0.A67.KktRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On 01-Jan-00, Jim Ostrowski, wrote: > >It looks like Netscape is resetting my windows/dos date back to 1984 >when I email a message ... > >Jim Ostrowski > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >***{Interesting. The date came through correctly >on my machine (a Mac), yet it came through incorrectly >on Knuke's machine (I think), and Jim, whom I know to have a PC, >is also having a problem. Is this a Mac-PC thing? >--MJ}*** > >Hi Mitchell, > >Could the following from one of your recent posts >have something to do with this? > >Jack Smith > >"GARY NORTH's Y2K LINKS and FORUMS > >The Year 2000 Problem: The Year the Earth Stands Still > > ... Today, in almost every published >article on y2k, the journalist feels compelled >to include this: "The problem exists because programmers >for three decades used the last two digits of the century >as substitutes for all four digits. Thus, 1967 is written >67, and 1999 is written 99. The problem will come in 2000 >when unrepaired computer programs will read 00 as 1900." > >Actually, unrepaired IBM-clone personal computers will >revert to either 1980 or 1984 ..." ***{My mail reader (Eudora Pro) is normally set to sort by date, and the window shows only the message headers which have the most recent dates, unless you deliberately scan backwards. Just out of curiosity, I looked at the oldest messages in my "in" box this morning, and found 3 messages from Jim O, all dated Jan. 4, 1980, which I had not seen before. Apparently he had a problem, and corrected it, since, as noted earlier, I did get some stuff from him dated after the rollover. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 09:00:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06259; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:59:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:59:55 -0800 Message-ID: <386FAF3F.329F bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 12:04:15 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Netscape 3.0 Y2k Bug noted! References: <386E7AC7.D95 ca-ois.com> <386F3BE8.32CC8F5F@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Zy2Ne2.0.dX1.AGuRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: > Actually, unrepaired IBM-clone personal computers will > revert to either 1980 or 1984 ..." Yeah, my old clunker here at home reverts back to 1980. I simply put a "Date" statement in the autoexecute file and enter the correct date each time I boot up. The date then tracks okay until I power down the machine. Hey! I paid $2,200 for this box in 1995 and I am damned well gonna get my money's worth. ;-) I do my real surfing at the office with a 500 MHz PII and a T1 Inet connection. At home, I turn off the "automatic image downloading" and surf on a 33.6 Kbps Modem. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 10:01:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28645; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:00:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:00:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000102130209.015a9520 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 13:02:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <007101bf552e$3ac4dd20$9b441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0oK9w1.0.V_6.q8vRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Fred, :-) For the 1 meter rods you have calculated 1.012E8 Hz = ~100 MHz. Are these separate pulses important? There will be a resonant ringing. Is it not possible to utilize a 100 MHz carrier? I am somewhat doubtful that there will arise such strong gravitational forces (85 lb. from your post of 12/28.) between the Lecher lines, only because (IMO) this should have been noticed by now from hams or antenna engineers. If a 100 Watt, 100 MHz signal were utilized, what then would be nature of the predicted force between the Lecher pairs? According to Wallace, [See: K. Brown-- <] the magnetogravity force in Wallace's setup seemed to fall off rather quickly when in space. Magnetogravity is normally considered a frame dragging effect but in your setup, [if the pulses are creating a magnetogravity field,] at that pulse frequency they may also be inducing a short range dipole electrogravity field which excludes the gravitational field of the earth. [See: R. Stirniman-- <] There could be some interesting inertial effects also. The spacing of the elements may be important. Would not closer spacing enhance the effect? and so also-- using a dielectric other than air? :-) At 06:31 AM 01/02/00 -0800, you wrote: >To-and-Fro Oscillation Frequency ~ = 1.012E8 Excursions/Sec (Hz) > >Now you charge up a capacitor to energy E = 0.5 C*V^2 and use it to put pulses on the >tubes in such a way that they will be traversing the double open-ended delay lines formed by the >tubes, in phase and occurring at the same points at the same time. > >You should see a (simulated) magnetogravity force between them, if you do it right. :-) > >Regards, Frederick No matter how it's done, I am sure the control of gravity/Inertia is but months away. Many thanks for your anomalous force and gravity ideas, Fred. I enjoy reading your imaginative use of knowledge. I wish I could understand more of what you [and the regular Vortex members] discuss though, and so I rarely post. The Internet is a truly fantastic communications media for comparing notes, ideas and proposing experiments. :-) Best, Colin Quinney PS: You may be interested in reading Vesselin Petkov's paper at: <. ABSTRACT: The equivalence of inertial and (passive) gravitational mass of a body can be naturally explained if it is assumed that both masses have the same origin - the electric self-force acting upon each non-inertial elementary charged particle of the body. The main consequences of this hypothesis are: (i) both inertial and gravitational mass are of entirely electromagnetic nature; (ii) as there is no mass, but only charges, it is these charges that represent a body's active gravitational mass, and (iii) they cause the anisotropy in the speed of electromagnetic interaction in its vicinity which turns out to be the very curvature of space-time. The proposed hypothesis makes an experimental test possible and opens up the possibility of (at least partly) controlling inertia and gravitation even if one considers the mass not to be entirely electromagnetic (as presently believed) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 10:25:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03647; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:25:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:25:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000801bf5557$0549c6a0$268e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000102130209.015a9520 inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 11:23:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"BZwyW3.0.mu.AWvRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Quinney To: Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 I goofed bigtime, Colin, C = 12.07* relative dielectric constant/log D/r (picofarads/meter). Second, L = 1.0E-7(rel permeability + 9.210 log D/r) (henry/meter) This puts the pulse velocity very close to c if the dielectric is air or vacuum, and the traverse frequency at c/2 ~ = 1.5E8 Hz. The real ACID TEST for "Antigrav Pulses/waves" is that they MUST penetrate all materials, which EM pulses cannot do, unless they are LOW (ELF) frequencies, like fractions of Hz or so. (The Feynman Challenge) However, they might "penetrate" by a stepped/stratification process, if the atoms/nuclei are susceptible to them. Regards, Frederick You wrote: > Thanks Fred, :-) > > For the 1 meter rods you have calculated 1.012E8 Hz = ~100 MHz. Are these separate pulses important? There will be a resonant ringing. Is it not possible to utilize a 100 MHz carrier? > > I am somewhat doubtful that there will arise such strong gravitational forces (85 lb. from your post of 12/28.) between the Lecher lines, only because (IMO) this should have been noticed by now from hams or antenna engineers. > > If a 100 Watt, 100 MHz signal were utilized, what then would be nature of the predicted force between the Lecher pairs? > According to Wallace, [See: K. Brown-- ] the magnetogravity force in Wallace's setup seemed to fall off rather quickly when in space. Magnetogravity is normally considered a frame dragging effect but in your setup, [if the pulses are creating a magnetogravity field,] at that pulse frequency they may also be inducing a short range dipole electrogravity field which excludes the gravitational field of the earth. [See: R. Stirniman-- ] There could be some interesting inertial effects also. > > The spacing of the elements may be important. Would not closer spacing enhance the effect? and so also-- using a dielectric other than air? :-) > > At 06:31 AM 01/02/00 -0800, you wrote: > >To-and-Fro Oscillation Frequency ~ = 1.012E8 Excursions/Sec (Hz) > > > >Now you charge up a capacitor to energy E = 0.5 C*V^2 and use it to put pulses on the > >tubes in such a way that they will be traversing the double open-ended delay lines formed by the > >tubes, in phase and occurring at the same points at the same time. > > > >You should see a (simulated) magnetogravity force between them, if you do it right. :-) > > > >Regards, Frederick > > > No matter how it's done, I am sure the control of gravity/Inertia is but months away. Many thanks for your anomalous force and gravity ideas, Fred. I enjoy reading your imaginative use of knowledge. I wish I could understand more of what you [and the regular Vortex members] discuss though, and so I rarely post. The Internet is a truly fantastic communications media for comparing notes, ideas and proposing experiments. :-) > > Best, > Colin Quinney > > PS: > You may be interested in reading Vesselin Petkov's paper at: > > . > > ABSTRACT: > The equivalence of inertial and (passive) gravitational mass of a body can > be naturally explained if it is assumed that both masses have the same > origin - the electric self-force acting upon each non-inertial elementary > charged particle of the body. The main consequences of this hypothesis are: > (i) both inertial and gravitational mass are of entirely electromagnetic > nature; (ii) as there is no mass, but only charges, it is these charges that > represent a body's active gravitational mass, and (iii) they cause the > anisotropy in the speed of electromagnetic interaction in its vicinity which > turns out to be the very curvature of space-time. The proposed hypothesis > makes an experimental test possible and opens up the possibility of (at > least partly) controlling inertia and gravitation even if one considers the > mass not to be entirely electromagnetic (as presently believed) > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 12:01:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01251; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:00:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:00:01 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01bf5564$45172ae0$268e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:58:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"nFBOr3.0.TJ.1vwRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You're a born optimist, Colin. :-) To get the 3.2E6 or 2.3E4 Pulse/Second reflected-pulse rate on the double open-ended Lecher Line to synch with the time-dilated gravity field of the quarks in a nucleus, it might have to be something like 94.00 to 13,000 meters long!. :-) Then to get the ~ 39 kg force Antigrav attraction or repulsion wrt the Earth, the 1.0 Ampere-Meter pulse current has to be developed with this Unipolar to-and-fro damped pulse "ringing" on the line. BTW, most radio amateurs wouldn't be weighing their Lecher Lines that are being used for sine waves. One might attempt a similar setup with a circularized Lecher Line which would more closely resemble the turns of a solenoid. That way you could get a better magnetogravity field, and a long Lecher Line in a more compact form. (just about right for the perimeter of your garden variety flying saucer) :-) Seeing as how magnetic fields have no problem penetrating most materials, one shouldn't have any problem with the "Feynman Challenge". Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 12:40:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17233; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:39:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:39:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000102154051.010ff650 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 15:40:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <000801bf5557$0549c6a0$268e1d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.5.32.20000102130209.015a9520 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uQwCN.0.BD4.dTxRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, At 11:23 AM 01/02/00 -0800, you wrote: >The real ACID TEST for "Antigrav Pulses/waves" is that they MUST penetrate all materials, which >EM pulses cannot do, unless they are LOW (ELF) frequencies, like fractions >of Hz or so. (The Feynman Challenge) Hamdi posted a reference to a paper about this very subject a few weeks ago here. It was interesting in that it claimed a connection between a conducting dielectric's absorption of extremely low frequency EM, and gravity. There was much engineering discussion about it on an antigravity Site on Egroup. > >However, they might "penetrate" by a stepped/stratification process, if the atoms/nuclei are >susceptible to them. > This stepping process-- on the macroscopic level, would it not appear as a linear accumulation? Here are two references where the process appeared to be additive: The mechanical two-step process of the Wallace patent itself and a paper presented at the 1980 Unconventional Energy Conference in Toronto by Zinsser. [sp?] I believe Zinsser used high frequency EM pulses. Unfortunately, I loaned out the Proceedings. Best, Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 12:47:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21154; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:46:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:46:40 -0800 Message-ID: <002801bf556a$c8cdfb60$268e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:45:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8If_91.0.SA5.laxRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW, Colin: You might consider wrapping 300 ohm twin-lead around a cardboard cylinder and pulsing it with 3.2E6 or 2.3E4 unipolar pulses/second with it terminated in it's 300 characteristic impedance. Incandescent or gas discharge light bulbs will do for high power dissipation. As you increase the pulse rate, duration, or amplitude, you will notice that the bulbs change from a red to greenish-white, just like what is reported for UFO maneuvering. :-) OTOH, you can use inductors an capacitors to make an "Artificial Line" and terminate it in a similar manner. Since it takes energy (mgh) to create the potential energy of the levitated vehicle, you can see that there is no free lunch. ~ 62 megajoules/kg to get earth escape velocity for a craft. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 14:53:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00915; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:49:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:49:49 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:59:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20000102225949906.AAA300 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"KFmuM1.0.vD.COzRu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahoy there, I've been so busy the last few weeks that I've not been able to read much of the list traffic, so if this has already been posted, please forgive me. Take a look at what this guy is up to, and see what you think. I haven't had the time to study it as well as I would like, but he is obviously getting some very cool results. http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/advprop.htm Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 18:35:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08827; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:34:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:34:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000102213553.0167f630 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 21:35:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <002801bf556a$c8cdfb60$268e1d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OkFfV2.0.q92.Ug0Su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, At 01:45 PM 01/02/00 -0800, Fred wrote: >BTW, Colin: > >You might consider wrapping 300 ohm twin-lead around a cardboard cylinder and pulsing it with >3.2E6 or 2.3E4 unipolar pulses/second with it terminated in it's 300 characteristic impedance. >Incandescent or gas discharge light bulbs will do for high power dissipation. > >As you increase the pulse rate, duration, or amplitude, you will notice that the bulbs change >from a red to greenish-white, just like what is reported for UFO maneuvering. :-) Thanks. You must have done this. Finally. . . absolute proof! ;-)) (I knew it. You are doing experiments again, when nobody is around ;-) Here's that paper by Fran De Aquino. Hamdi first mentioned it here. It details a method (well, almost..) for generating an antigravity field that predicts Ultra Low EM Frequencies for best effect. The problem with ELF of course is the wavelength of the antenna, but Jerry Bales has suggested that completely imbedding the antenna inside of an appropriate dielectric will effectively reduce the wavelength to an engineerable size. Today, my bookmarks are packed with gravity modification URL's, yet 3 years ago practically the only AG pioneers on the Internet could be counted on one hand. Because of this, I believe that gravity control will be arriving probably sooner than we realize. The problem as I see it though, is that people will just not take it seriously until something "goes up" and they see it on CNN. By then of course, the Vanguard will be filled :-) Best Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 20:23:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12589; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:22:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:22:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:21:56 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list eskimo.com Subject: brain donors needed In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991231093213.00974100 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mG_f73.0.W43.mF2Su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They want normal brains, abnormal brains, and brains from relatives. http://www.mcleanhospital.org/brainbank.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 06:48:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14946; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 06:46:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 06:46:52 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: brain donors needed Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:56:52 -0500 Message-ID: <20000103145652890.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"mjI_A.0.Sf3.SPBSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Billb writes: > >They want normal brains, abnormal brains, and brains from relatives. > > http://www.mcleanhospital.org/brainbank.html >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) Hi Bill! I've been checking the post-Y2K routing messages for errors, and noticed the following statement. (Up arrows, mine) ;) ------------------------------------------ Return-Path: Received: from mx1.eskimo.com ([204.122.16.48]) by mail.lcia.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52462U2500L250S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 23:32:23 -0500 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12589; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:22:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:22:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:21:56 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list eskimo.com Subject: brain donors needed In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991231093213.00974100 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mG_f73.0.W43.mF2Su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 07:47:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA32573; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 07:37:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 07:37:58 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: brain donors needed Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:48:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20000103154801359.AAA200 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"r-IVs.0.py7.L9CSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, This is from http://www.seattleinsider.com/ ------------------- Technology January 1, 2000 Microsoft repairs two Y2K glitches REDMOND - AP -- Microsoft has fixed one Y-2-K glitch and is working on another. The company's Y-2-K coordinator, Don Jones, says a glitch in the data feed between Microsoft and Intuit caused some customers' portfolios to appear to be worth more than they actually were. The problem cropped up around eleven last night and was fixed before midnight. Today, Microsoft engineers are working on a minor glitch in the Hotmail service. If users had e-mail in their inbox dated prior to October 1999, it showed up on their screens as having been sent in 2099. No e-mails were lost. ------------------ Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 08:19:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21606; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:18:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:18:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:17:55 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Toyota hybrid car info. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rsLEU3.0.SH5.HlCSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More detailed info about the hybrid gasoline electric Toyota automobile is available here: http://www.toyota.com/cgi-bin/top_frame.cgi?low_frame=%2fafv%2fprius%2fintro_d emo.html&data_frame= The Toyota and Honda hybrid vehicle rollouts were earlier than some industry experts were expecting. GM has responded with a demonstration of a vehicle which I consider too complex and too advanced, which will not be available for awhile, if ever. See: http://www.auto.com/2000autoshow/iwira1_20000101.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 08:19:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21590; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:18:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:18:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000103111815.00798de0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:18:15 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Intelligent Y2K roundup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wqj2t3.0.EH5.GlCSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The New York Times has an intelligent roundup of the Y2K story so far: http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/01/biztech/articles/03work.html http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/01/biztech/articles/03guru.html In "A Cassandra With No Regrets, and Besides, It Is Not Over Yet," By James Brooke, Edward Yourdon is quoted: "When we got to Indonesia, to China, all across Asia without any reports of problems -- that was surprising," . . . "By God, they did do a good job fixing things up." But Mr. Yourdon . . . warned that it was far too early to say that the world's computer-dependent societies were out of the woods. "There is going to be another opportunity for bugs Monday morning -- everyone is going to come in to their office, and turn on their PC's," the 55-year-old computer programmer said. "It is possible that bugs will manifest themselves in coming days and weeks." I think Yourdon is forgetting that the opposite is also true: the bugs manifested themselves weeks and months ago, because business transactions are often postdated. (Things like delivery and expiration dates are always in the future.) In fact Y2K problems began 30 years ago in some industries. Banks issuing 30 year mortgages in the 1970's had to deal with them. Yourdon is one of the smarter Y2K pessimists. See: www.yourdon.com I was a cautious Y2K optimist, as the record here will show. Things are going much more smoothly that I expected. It just goes to show that people can deal with problems when they choose to. I think most of the problems with CF and the energy crisis could be eliminated rapidly if we only have the will to do it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 08:45:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00996; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:43:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:43:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000103114541.00f629c0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:45:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <20000102225949906.AAA300 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"U5UU52.0.UF.77DSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke, JL Naudin's new work is most excellent indeed. Thanks for pointing this out. I am curious also about the power to weight ratio on his on-board power supply. I believe these new "plasma skin" surfaces* may evolve to the preferred aircraft propulsion for this century. Although it is primarily designed for atmospheric transport, NASA is very interested. I would imagine that exit and re-entry vehicles will also be equipped with some form of it in the future. One thing's for sure; it surely will beat using the bricks that are presently used as heat shields :-) An good overview on the efficiency of this electrohydrodynamic (EHD) transport technology* can be found here: (*)Boundary Layer Flow Control with One Atmosphere Uniform Glow Surface Discharge Plasma. Colin Quinney. At 05:59 PM 01/02/00 -0500, you wrote: >Ahoy there, > >I've been so busy the last few weeks that I've not been able to read much of >the list traffic, so if this has already been posted, please forgive me. >Take a look at what this guy is up to, and see what you think. I haven't >had the time to study it as well as I would like, but he is obviously >getting some very cool results. > >http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/advprop.htm > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 09:47:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28008; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:43:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:43:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000103124339.0079e100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 12:43:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: See the future with I.E. magazine! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Dds8l2.0.Qr6.K_DSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This morning one of our readers told us that our web page, www.infinite-energy.com says "This site last updated January 1, 1900." I just checked it again, and now it says ". . . last updated January 1, 3900." We pride ourselves on being ahead of our times. I heard the Naval Observatory web site displayed the year as "19100." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 09:50:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28208; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:48:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:48:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3870DF84.3E15 ca-ois.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:42:28 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud C-14 Characters: What's in a name? References: <19991229063115.6682.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <386E5937.1E3F@bellsouth.net> <12D3A20A.65F0@ca-ois.com> <386ECB24.1B13522@carrollsweb.com> <386EDC80.2708@ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Bd9mP3.0.gu6.S3ESu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, I'd just like to append one final thing to the Turin Shroud discussion: The names of two of the prominent characters involved in the Turin shroud sample taking, and size/ weight reporting appear to be an example of God's ironic humor: From: http://www.iea.com/~bradh/shroud/shroud_testhoax.htm "There was something even more serious. Through pushing Testore and Riggi into a corner during the weeks that followed (Oct.-Nov.1989), we ended by discovering that one of the samples sent to the laboratories was in two pieces!" Riggi-Testore!!??? I need say no more. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 11:57:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21577; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:53:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:53:48 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:53:34 -1000 Subject: Re: See the future with I.E. magazine! From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000103124339.0079e100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_VzUv3.0.-G5.BvFSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - I just checked and it has a correct date. The only bug I've encountered directly is that on Clearstation the stocks on my watch list added after 2000 don't sort correctly. What really does concern me a little bit though is the bashing that has begun - Y2K fears were all just a scam, etc. Sure. Next time we face a global threat we can all just stick our heads in the sand and say it's all just a scam. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI on 1/3/00 7:43 AM, Jed Rothwell at JedRothwell infinite-energy.com wrote: > This morning one of our readers told us that our web page, > www.infinite-energy.com says "This site last updated January 1, 1900." I > just checked it again, and now it says ". . . last updated January 1, > 3900." We pride ourselves on being ahead of our times. > > I heard the Naval Observatory web site displayed the year as "19100." > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 12:14:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32141; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:12:12 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000103151157.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 15:11:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: See the future with I.E. magazine! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000103124339.0079e100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qD4dI3.0.7s7.RAGSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >I just checked and it has a correct date. That's strange! It still says 3900 with my browser, which is Internet Explorer 5.00. I'll delete all history and saved files and try again . . . Nope. Still says it. Must be a Java program or something within Internet Explorer. >What really does concern me a little bit though is the bashing that has >begun - Y2K fears were all just a scam, etc. Sure. Next time we face a >global threat we can all just stick our heads in the sand and say it's all >just a scam. Yeah, that bothers me, too. Professionals do a conscientious job and get blamed because they succeed. You see the same thing with bridge maintenance. Carefull maintenance of bridges and overpasses can save a whopping amount of money and prevent accidents and delays. You keep the gutters clean, and you paint metal surfaces. When you let the infrastructure go to pot, in a couple of years you can push a screwdriver through a steel girder. Unfortunately, taxpayers sometimes complain about the expense, and legislatures prefer to spend money on new bridges instead! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 12:17:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01434; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:14:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:14:58 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:25:00 -0500 Message-ID: <20000103202500062.AAA106 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"wcvv93.0.IM.0DGSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Colin writes: >Knuke, > >JL Naudin's new work is most excellent indeed. Thanks for pointing this >out. I am curious also about the power to weight ratio on his on-board >power supply. I believe these new "plasma skin" surfaces* may evolve to the >preferred aircraft propulsion for this century. Although it is primarily >designed for atmospheric transport, NASA is very interested. I would >imagine that exit and re-entry vehicles will also be equipped with some >form of it in the future. One thing's for sure; it surely will beat using >the bricks that are presently used as heat shields :-) Thanks for the link. From the photos of the model without the plasma skin, the size of the onboard powersupply and the overall size of the craft suggest that one may be able to build a short-range version that could carry a person, and still fit it in the back yard. If we could crack how Mills is making his nickel hydride battery compound, I'd be building one of these things right now. I want to get out of here soooo bad. ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 13:53:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21512; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:13:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:13:36 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:12:38 -1000 Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20000103202500062.AAA106 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1Dx3g1.0.xF5._3HSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke - > Thanks for the link. From the photos of the model without the plasma skin, > the size of the onboard powersupply and the overall size of the craft > suggest that one may be able to build a short-range version that could carry > a person, and still fit it in the back yard. If we could crack how Mills is > making his nickel hydride battery compound, I'd be building one of these > things right now. I want to get out of here soooo bad. ;) I think the development of personal *quiet* and *safe/reliable* hover capable or very STOL aircraft will have an impact on our lives as great or greater than the internet. Way huge. Look at the maps of the populated areas of the world - everybody crammed in near costal bays, rivers, and other transportation hubs throughout the interior, occupying a small fraction of the landscape with huge uninhabited areas between. I mean, I like Oahu and being near the beach, but if I could commute real fast and cheap right from the front door, I could buy a pretty decent plot of land on the Big Island for as little as $5K up in the sticks on the mountainside somewhere and still access everything Honolulu has to offer any time I want. Mainlanders could live way up in the mountains or out in the boonies for cheap, and still work, shop, and play downtown. They'd need all sorts of self sufficient high tech gizmos for power, water, and waste handling too, so that fits right in with the theme of this list too. It would all have to come together at once, but the development of this kind of aircraft might provide a huge surge of demand for those other products. That Moller(sp?) multi engine ducted fan rig is a first step towards a commercial version of something like this, but the noise is HIDEOUS and is as big an impediment to the successful development of such craft as basic performance and safety. I also think that the signs are strong that there is a propulsion system capable of providing what we need being held close by the mil. Wonder when the'll cut it loose - if it exists? Terry - what do your 'contacts' say? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 13:54:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20994; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:11:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:11:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000103202500062.AAA106 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:06:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"-ufkj3.0.i75.s1HSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Colin writes: >>Knuke, >> >>JL Naudin's new work is most excellent indeed. Thanks for pointing this >>out. I am curious also about the power to weight ratio on his on-board >>power supply. I believe these new "plasma skin" surfaces* may evolve to the >>preferred aircraft propulsion for this century. Although it is primarily >>designed for atmospheric transport, NASA is very interested. I would >>imagine that exit and re-entry vehicles will also be equipped with some >>form of it in the future. One thing's for sure; it surely will beat using >>the bricks that are presently used as heat shields :-) > >Thanks for the link. From the photos of the model without the plasma skin, >the size of the onboard powersupply and the overall size of the craft >suggest that one may be able to build a short-range version that could carry >a person, and still fit it in the back yard. If we could crack how Mills is >making his nickel hydride battery compound, I'd be building one of these >things right now. I want to get out of here soooo bad. ;) ***{I don't think I would want to venture into space with nothing but battery power. We need some kind of concentrated energy source--something that delivers what CF, thus far, has only promised. With a CF reactor that actually worked, and the sort of propulsion system that Naudin is working on, the automobile of space would be within our grasp, and individuals who are sick of the fascist pesthole known as Earth could simply pack their bags and get the hell out. As soon as that happens, I'm outta here! ;-) --MJ}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 14:08:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27982; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:36:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:36:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:42:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates Resent-Message-ID: <"fXpn21.0.8r6.ePHSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:54:25 -0600, Scott Little wrote: > >>This brief study of cooling rates, >> >>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run3/cool.html >> >>shows that there is a fundamental difference between Mizuno's cooling rates >>and ours. Mizuno's data come from a recent private communication and I >>believe it is data that he has taken in his own lab recently in response to >>my queries. I will relay what he has to say about this comparison. >>Perhaps he IS using a strong fan on his cell. That's the only way I can >>make our cooling rate even approach his. >[snip] >If his lab is at a higher altitude, the pressure on his cell would be lower, >which would facilitate evaporative cooling. ***{Hokkaido University, with which Mizuno is affiliated, is in Sapporo, which is the capital city of that prefecture. According to what I have read about it (see http://www.asiams.com/hokkaido.htm), Sapporo is a city of 1.7 million. Roughly 60 percent of the area within the city limits is mountainous, and the highest point has an elevation 1488 meters. Since the average elevation within Austin, Texas (where Scott's lab is located) is 179 meters, it appears that your guess is on target: the elevation of Mizuno's lab appears to be *much* higher than that of Scott's lab. That fact, coupled with Mizuno's use of a cooling fan on his cells, probably accounts for virtually all of the difference between the two cooling curves. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 14:25:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02194; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:10:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:10:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000103170957.007a3630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:09:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: References: <20000103202500062.AAA106 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xqeUo.0.6Y.avHSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: With a CF reactor that >actually worked, and the sort of propulsion system that Naudin is working >on, the automobile of space would be within our grasp, and individuals who >are sick of the fascist pesthole known as Earth could simply pack their >bags and get the hell out. As soon as that happens, I'm outta here! ;-) And since human nature does not change, when you got wherever you are going, you would find things pretty much the way they were back home. That's what happened to Europeans who migrated to the New World: they made another hell-hole for themselves, despite the resources and opportunities. It took another kind of exploration to make a happier way of life. They had to learn to make better laws and government. They could, and did, do that back home in England. Perhaps it helped to have a tabula rasa continent. On the other hand, it took the Civil War to bring justice to the land, and the war was not part of the Purifying Wilderness Experience. Before the war, the South was worst fascistic hell-hole in all of Christian civilization for black people. Slavery was abolished in Europe decades earlier by peaceful means. The Civil War was a triumph of regimented, industrial civilization, and so was the push westward after 1840. It was mechanized, hi-tech mass movement, brought about by railroads, telegraphs, insurance companies, British capital, land grants, legislation, and large-scale organized warfare to destroy the Indians and wipe out the Buffalo herds. The romantic view of American history credits the migration and nation building to rugged individualism, but the so-called "pioneers" were more dependent upon civilization and technology (particularly railroads) than any group of people before them. They did not build log cabins, they used wood from sawmills back east shipped by rail. They ordered the necessities of life from Sears Roebuck catalogs, and shipped their crops and cows by rail back east. People living on the frontier were much more dependent on big corporations and big government than the folks back in Boston and County Cork. When you blast off for the planets and stars beyond, for the first few generations you will be beholden to the taxpayers and corporate sponsors back on Earth. Don't get me wrong. I am all in favor of space exploration and new frontiers. But the frontier you speak of is in the human heart, morality and imagination, and you could travel to the ends of universe and not escape these things. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 14:48:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14963; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:45:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000103163326.018d33dc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:33:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zioFV.0.jf3.ZQISu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:42 PM 1/3/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Hokkaido University, with which Mizuno is affiliated, is in Sapporo, >which is the capital city of that prefecture. According to what I have read >about it (see http://www.asiams.com/hokkaido.htm), Sapporo is a city of 1.7 >million. Roughly 60 percent of the area within the city limits is >mountainous, and the highest point has an elevation 1488 meters. Since the >average elevation within Austin, Texas (where Scott's lab is located) is >179 meters, it appears that your guess is on target: the elevation of >Mizuno's lab appears to be *much* higher than that of Scott's lab. That >fact, coupled with Mizuno's use of a cooling fan on his cells, probably >accounts for virtually all of the difference between the two cooling >curves. --Mitchell Jones}*** According to an old World Book Atlas I have most of the city is below 500 feet elevation. Jed, do you happen to know how high the University is? I'll go ahead and ask Mizuno via email. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 15:10:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24363; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:08:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:08:55 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: See the future with I.E. magazine! Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 10:08:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20000103124339.0079e100 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA24330 Resent-Message-ID: <"5LBpp.0.Zy5.7mISu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:53:34 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Jed - > >I just checked and it has a correct date. > >The only bug I've encountered directly is that on Clearstation the stocks on >my watch list added after 2000 don't sort correctly. > >What really does concern me a little bit though is the bashing that has >begun - Y2K fears were all just a scam, etc. Sure. Next time we face a >global threat we can all just stick our heads in the sand and say it's all >just a scam. [snip] It's nature's way of separating the wheat from the chaff. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 15:38:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32086; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:30:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:30:54 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 10:30:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA32052 Resent-Message-ID: <"CfDaN.0.Er7.i4JSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:17:55 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >available for awhile, if ever. See: > >http://www.auto.com/2000autoshow/iwira1_20000101.htm > >- Jed BAAT have already done better than this with an existing vehicle, using methods that could be incorporated into existing production lines at little cost. They don't need to use hybrids at all. They have just improved the combustion process. See http://www.baat.com/ if it's working. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 17:24:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13278; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:22:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:22:19 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 10:15:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <39b27ssm12lji3ujp652tg338va9rsane5 4ax.com> References: <20000102225949906.AAA300 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.5.32.20000103114541.00f629c0@inforamp.net> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000103114541.00f629c0 inforamp.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA13156 Resent-Message-ID: <"8YP7Y3.0.EF3.9jKSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:45:41 -0500, Colin Quinney wrote: [snip] >An good overview on the efficiency of this electrohydrodynamic (EHD) >transport technology* can be found here: > > >(*)Boundary Layer Flow Control with One Atmosphere Uniform Glow Surface >Discharge Plasma. > >Colin Quinney. [snip] Yes, but if you look carefully at this study, you will see that the effect really only makes a difference at low speeds (family sedan). At airplane speeds it is negligible (unless I'm really misreading it). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 18:22:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09554; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:17:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:17:10 -0800 Message-ID: <001e01bf5662$18f11620$30441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:15:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BF561E.E43D6660" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"gaOQr3.0.AL2.bWLSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BF561E.E43D6660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hidden frequency: When each of the infinitesmal LC units charge there should be a "pulse" associated with it. Also this may be may be why a "circling" charge (spin) in a particle doesn't see v^2/r acceleration, thus does not radiate. IOW, a particle is equivalent to a section of a circularized infinite transmission line. 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2xx6s2KALtupiQewJNH2eRv9ZcSH/d+WnC1hByU3H1Y5qUAKMAAD0FLRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRTFjRZGcLhmHJ9afRRRRRRTfLTcW2LuPU45p1FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFf/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BF561E.E43D6660-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 18:27:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13521; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:24:50 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <0.4b497e25.25a2b3eb aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:24:43 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"I4qwH2.0.BJ3.odLSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 12/30/99 12:01:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, george varisys.com writes: > On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:45:53 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > > >Additional info to my last post: > > > >The blue material is a suspension in the HCL > >solution. It is slowly precipitating out > >leaving the clear acid. > - > Hi Vince, > I would expect solid hydrino compounds to have a > higher probability of being ferromagnetic, due to the > unpaired hydrino electron spins. Test the blue > precipitate with a strong magnet. > - > Regards, > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East > Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > > I tested the material (no longer blue colored) with a high strength magnet... Not attracted to magnet. The blue color disappeared after 40 hours in the 30% HCL solution. The precipitate is now a grey/white color. I guess it wasn't Y2K compliant. Back to science...Prepared a quartz tube with a 0.5 gram slug of K metal at the bottom of the tube under the cathode.Will pump a good vacuum for about 15 hours and then make the first run at a 10 torr fill of H2 gas. Should have first numbers by tomorrow evening. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 18:50:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22558; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:48:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:48:42 -0800 Message-ID: <38718AC4.39D8 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 21:53:08 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CTWmZ2.0.NW5.9-LSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Terry - what do your 'contacts' say? Easy Rick, they say: > I also think that the signs are strong that there is a propulsion system > capable of providing what we need being held close by the mil. Wonder when > the'll cut it loose - if it exists? How 'bout living in a large box kite above Pali Gap? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 19:42:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12426; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:39:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:39:49 -0800 Message-ID: <387169C7.683D44AF carrollsweb.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 21:32:24 -0600 From: Rod & Mary Eastman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? References: <001e01bf5662$18f11620$30441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2n8yQ.0.323.4kMSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick; Hi ! I've been subscribing to this list for sometime now, and I'de like to inquire as to the basics of anti gravity you have been espousing. Please keep in mind that I am NOT even an ametuer scientist, just someone interested in the topic and tempted to experiment some. I am by trade in Electronics and Computer programming, with very little physics behind me, so any algebra you may toss my way will go to waste. My main question is, is it possible to generate a large enough voltage between two plates to defeat, or counter the effects of gravity ? Rod E. Frederick Sparber wrote: > Hidden frequency: > > When each of the infinitesmal LC units charge there should be a "pulse" associated with it. > > Also this may be may be why a "circling" charge (spin) in a particle doesn't see v^2/r > acceleration, thus does not radiate. > > IOW, a particle is equivalent to a section of a circularized infinite transmission line. > > Regards, Frederick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Name: mapi0.jpg > mapi0.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 19:53:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18060; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:51:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:51:56 -0800 Message-ID: <20000104035559.5556.qmail nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 3 Jan 00 22:55:59 EST From: Horace To: energy21 Subject: Re: Al catalysed H2O dissociation CC: freenrg-L eskimo.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA18019 Resent-Message-ID: <"KWxJm2.0.wP4.RvMSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Michael S. Johnston" wrote: > energy21 - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135 > > Hi, > I found a website on a car running on water. It's address is > http://layo.com > To make things simpler I copied the site and put it n my list. In > this page are a patent and a letter from BMW who tested the device and > found it to work. I am in the process of contacting BMW directly in > hopes of getting verification from them directly. Not that I don't > believe the gentleman who maintains this site, rather, I like to see > evidence myself. If BMW confirms the accuracy of this information then > we should DEFINITELY look at this! The concept isn't too difficult. It > involves a MIG welder. Here though you are producing an electrical arc > under water and this might bypass Faraday's laws to some extent. At any > rate it looks VERY interesting! > MJ > -------------------------------------------------------- Interesting... let the Aluminum do the work in pulling apart the water molecule instead of the electric current alone. Let's calculate the energies involved. Masses of elements and compounds involved: H = 1.00797 g/mol O = 15.9994 g/mol Al = 26.98154 g/mol H2 = 2.01594 g/mol O2 = 31.9988 g/mol H2O = 18.01534 g/mol Al2O3 = 101.96128 g/mol "Aluminum oxide" The reaction can be written as: 2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) "it is not written correctly in the article" Substituting the appropriate masses yelds the following values: 2(26.98154g[Al]) + 3(18.01534g[H2O]) --> 101.96128g[Al2O3] + 3(2.01594g[H2]) !!! 53.96308g[Al] + 54.04602g[H2O] --> 101.96128g[Al2O3] + 6.04782g[H2] !!! ..so approximately: 1kg[Aluminum] + 1kg[water] --> 1.9kg[Aluminum oxide] + 0.1kg[Hydrogen gas] ... where energy in 0.1kg[H2] is equal to energy in 0.4L[gasoline] ... if 1kg[Aluminum] == 0.4L[gasoline] then 2.5kg[Aluminum] == 1L[gasoline] and then 9.5kg[Aluminum] == 1Gallon [gasoline] ...so if Aluminum metal costs $1/kg then the gasoline would have to cost $2.5/L or $9.5/Gallon to be even. $9.5 a GALLON !!! QUOTE: "...A 900 Kilo car runs 600 Kilometer on 20 liter water and 1 Kilo aluminum..." So... since 1 liter of water weighs on earth 1kg, the remaining 19 liters of water must have not participated in the reaction ! Also the volume of the molecular hydrogen gas at standard temperature & pressure is: 1mol[H2] = 2.01594g[H2] = 22.415dm^3[H2] = 22.415 liters = 22415cc (Note: 1dm^3 = 1L = 1 Liter, and 1cm^3 = 1cc = 1mL) ...1 Liter is a little more than 1 Quart ...so 1kg of Aluminum yelds: 112.073g[H2] = 1246dm^3[H2] = 1246000cm^3[H2] QUOTE: "...A unit substantially as shown in the drawings has been used to drive a 500cc motor cycle engine. The wire 22 had a diameter of 1,6 mm and was of commercial purity (98°'~A1). The unit produced over 1000 cc of hydrogen a minute, with an aluminum wire consumption rate of 140 to 180 cm per minute..." ...Calculating the amount of Aluminum metal in the wire: Density of Aluminum metal = 2700kg/m^3 = 2.7kg/dm^3 1.6mm diameter Aluminum wire (98% purity) = 5.32g/m 140cm of the above Al wire = 7.45g[Al] 180cm of the above Al wire = 9.58g[Al] ..so: 2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) 7.45g[Al wire] + 7.46g[H20] ==> 14.08g[[Al2O3] + 0.83g[H2] "for 140cm wire" 9.58g[Al wire] + 9.59g[H20] ==> 18.10g[[Al2O3] + 1.07g[H2] "for 180cm wire" ...the volume of the Hydrogen gas at standard temp & pressure, created in the 2 above cases is: 1.07g[H2] = 9.23dm^3[H2] = 9230cm^3[H2] "for 140cm of wire" 0.83g[H2] = 11.94dm^3[H2] = 11940cm^3[H2] "for 180cm of wire" ...this means that the device described by the author is only apx. 10% efficient and in theory could produce 10 times more hydrogen gas. (or the quoted 1000cc volume of generated gas is under high pressure and takes up 1,000cc instead of 10,000cc) QUOTE: "...The rate of deposition of aluminum oxide was about 4 kilograms per 500 kilometers traveled..." ...so if 4kg of Aluminum oxide was deposited than the following amount of Hydrogen gas was generated: 2117g[Al] + 2120g[H2O] --> 4000g[Al2O3] + 237.3g[H2] ...which is equivalent to energy in 0.93L[gasoline].... WHAT AN EFFICIENT CAR - 500km on less than 1 liter equivalent of gasoline !!! ...Notice that during the 500km run, apx. 2kg of Aluminum metal would be needed to generate 4kg of Aluminum oxide, which doesn't agree with: QUOTE: "...A 900 Kilo car runs 600 Kilometer on 20 liter water and 1 Kilo aluminum..." ...at standard temperature and pressure 237.3g of hydrogen gas takes the following volume: 237.3g[H2] = 2638.5dm^3[H2] = 2638.5 liters [H2] = 2638500cc [H2] Heat (energy) of Combustion of some fuels not counting the heat of byproducts (exhaust): Molecular Hydrogen 120.0 Mj/kg Natural Gas 48.0 Mj/kg Liquified petroleum gas 46.1 Mj/kg Aviation gasoline 44.0 Mj/kg Automotive gasoline 43.8 Mj/kg Kerosine 43.3 Mj/kg Diesel 42.5 Mj/kg Some liquid fuel densities: Liquid hydrogen 0.07 g/mL = 70g/L = 14.286L/kg Automotive gasoline 0.70 g/mL = 700g/L = 1.428L/kg Diesel fuel 0.82 g/mL = 820g/L = 1.219L/kg ... so 1kg of Hydrogen gas [H2] has the same energy as: 1kg[H2] = 120Mj = 2.74kg[Gasoline] = 3.91L[Gasoline] = 2.82kg[Diesel] = 3.44L[Diesel] QUOTE: "...Conventional modifications were made to the carburetor to enable the engine to run on a mixture of hydrogen and air. The wire 22 carries a voltage of about 18000 volts with a current of about 1 amp..." ...This must be a typo. Maybe the 1amp current refers to the current in primary winding. If not than assuming 25% duty cycle and 0.5 cos(phi) power factor, the electrical energy delivered by the ignition coils would be: 18000V * 1A * 0.25 * 0.5 = 2.2kW. Enought to run my boiler !. Regards, Horace ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 20:00:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22704; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:58:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:58:51 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:58:43 -1000 Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <38718AC4.39D8 bellsouth.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2HkaY.0.bY5.w_MSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think your contacts are a bunch of smartypants. ;) on 1/3/00 7:53 PM, Terry Blanton at commengr bellsouth.net wrote: > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > >> Terry - what do your 'contacts' say? > > Easy Rick, they say: > >> I also think that the signs are strong that there is a propulsion system >> capable of providing what we need being held close by the mil. Wonder when >> the'll cut it loose - if it exists? > > How 'bout living in a large box kite above Pali Gap? > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 20:08:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA26487; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:06:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:06:49 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:16:51 -0500 Message-ID: <20000104041651140.AAC300 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"4Njn_1.0.jT6.O7NSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick writes: >I think the development of personal *quiet* and *safe/reliable* hover >capable or very STOL aircraft will have an impact on our lives as great or >greater than the internet. Way huge. I agree. All of the old patterns of civilization and city building would change. The internet has made the world a much smaller place, which in turn I think/hope, has prompted us all to become much larger inside as individuals in many ways. Just our own interaction in the Vortex Group has been enormously instructive. We've all been digesting the impact of the net simultaneously, while participating in its development. These anti-gravity vehicles, even if practical only over short distances, would help I think, relieve some of the stresses of life that accompany the overcrowding of cities in the short term, while allowing us to prepare ourselves for massive development in outer space. For myself, I don't really have any interest in living in outer space. I know that it has an enormous appeal to many people on this group, but in all the visible universe, Earth is by far the most beautiful and interesting planet to me. I hope that we can come up with ways to repair the damage that we've done to it, and learn to get along better without sacrificing the ability to live the way in which we each want to live. On most days I don't feel like we will ever do that, but I still hope for it nonetheless. When I said that I really wanted to get out of here, I meant it, but not off the planet entirely. I've lived for about a decade in places where I didn't speak the language, and I loved it. Usually, it is when I begin to understand the culture, and what people are saying to each other that I wish to move elsewhere. There are still many places that I have not been where I could live happily I think, and some of the languages are so difficult to learn that I could easily live out my natural life without running out of places to go. ;) >I also think that the signs are strong that there is a propulsion system >capable of providing what we need being held close by the mil. Wonder when >the'll cut it loose - if it exists? Terry - what do your 'contacts' say? Yes, I talked to some people in Boeing who were working on this as long as 6 years ago. I also mentioned Naudin's work to an engineer who had been contracted to Boeing the last time I visited Seattle, which was about six months ago, and he just smiled and said, "Well, he certainly has a good start!" This was when Naudin's craft was still on a tether. I talked to another couple that had seen something close up flying out around Moses Lake, where Boeing has another plant. This happened just a couple of years ago. It was at night, and the craft hovered right over them for about 5 minutes. They tried to run away from it, but it followed them. They said it was totally silent, and when they just stopped and stared back at it, it flew off. My friends are both professionals, and not given to telling tales. They quizzed me with great earnestness about plasma physics and anti-gravity, and of course, I fully explained what I knew to them in about five minutes. ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 20:11:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA26458; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:06:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:06:46 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:16:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20000104041649265.AAA300 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"EUs3x2.0.KT6.M7NSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >Don't get me wrong. I am all in favor of space exploration and new >frontiers. But the frontier you speak of is in the human heart, morality >and imagination, and you could travel to the ends of universe and not >escape these things. > >- Jed Don't panic, Jed. I'm sure that Mitch and the rest of us engineers would not dream of leaving you behind without first writing down complete instructions on how to fix your air conditioning, car, and grow your own food. Right Mitch?... Mitch?? MITCH?!!! That's weird, he was just online a few minutes ago... Oh well, like they said on the Titanic, "Last one to the lifeboats is a rotten egg!" Knuke - Just kidding, of course;) Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 22:10:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA03028; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:09:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:09:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000104001017.006cdc60 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 00:10:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: msg from Mizuno Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"96vs93.0.El.VwOSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's the latest from Mizuno. >Dear Scott > >Happy New Year >I have seen your data and I found big difference with your heat release. I >am very apologizes that I have not showed you to I am having used a fan of >15cm diameter very close to the cell about 5cm. This fan is very effective >to cool the cell. I think it is sometimes very difficult to communicate the >information each other. >My elevation of laboratory is 20m. You are concerning the boiling >temperature, but these are not so big difference to affect on the boiling >point. > >Sincerely, > >Tadahiko So, he's even lower (20 m) than I am (200 m), but neither of us is high enough to have a big effect on the boiling point or evaporation rates. The main point is that he has a little fan blasting away at the cell...that's probably the entire difference between our cooling rates. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 22:21:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA06502; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:20:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:20:11 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: msg from Mizuno Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 17:20:04 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000104001017.006cdc60 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000104001017.006cdc60 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA06473 Resent-Message-ID: <"_CgNl.0.Sb1.R4PSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 00:10:17 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Here's the latest from Mizuno. > >>Dear Scott >> >>Happy New Year >>I have seen your data and I found big difference with your heat release. I >>am very apologizes that I have not showed you to I am having used a fan of >>15cm diameter very close to the cell about 5cm. This fan is very effective >>to cool the cell. I think it is sometimes very difficult to communicate the >>information each other. >>My elevation of laboratory is 20m. You are concerning the boiling I hate to be trivial, but this sounds more like the elevation within a building (above the ground). >>temperature, but these are not so big difference to affect on the boiling >>point. >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Tadahiko > >So, he's even lower (20 m) than I am (200 m), but neither of us is high >enough to have a big effect on the boiling point or evaporation rates. The >main point is that he has a little fan blasting away at the cell...that's >probably the entire difference between our cooling rates. [snip] It would appear so. I wonder if the fan speed drops when he draws power for the electrolysis? (yes, I know Jed said that the cooling curve is taken from the beginning of the experiment). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 23:07:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA18895; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:06:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:06:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000103170957.007a3630 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20000103202500062.AAA106 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 01:00:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"bRBAw.0.8d4.wlPSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >With a CF reactor that >>actually worked, and the sort of propulsion system that Naudin is working >>on, the automobile of space would be within our grasp, and individuals who >>are sick of the fascist pesthole known as Earth could simply pack their >>bags and get the hell out. As soon as that happens, I'm outta here! ;-) > >And since human nature does not change, when you got wherever you are >going, you would find things pretty much the way they were back home. ***{Incorrect. Frontier communities, by and large, were much more open and tolerant than the communities in the heavily populated areas further east. It wasn't until the original pioneer population came to be outnumbered by ordinary folk who came in later, after the risks had been reduced, that blizzards of laws and regulations enforcing conformity began to be passed--laws banning such things as brothels, gambling, pornography, dogfighting, narcotics, carrying of weapons, practicing medicine without a license, polygamy, etc. The reason for the greater tolerance of pioneer communities is obvious: frontier life is life just beyond the reach of the mass society, and, as such, it attracts people who choose freedom with risks in preference to security with enforced conformity. --MJ}*** >That's what happened to Europeans who migrated to the New World: they made >another hell-hole for themselves, despite the resources and opportunities. >It took another kind of exploration to make a happier way of life. They had >to learn to make better laws and government. ***{No they didn't. As long as the frontier existed, freedom could be achieved by simply accepting the risks associated with living there. The principle is simple: if you live out of sight and out of mind of those who are unwilling to live and let live, then you are free. --MJ}*** [snip] the push westward after 1840 ... was mechanized, hi-tech mass movement, >brought about by railroads, telegraphs, insurance companies, British >capital, land grants, legislation, and large-scale organized warfare to >destroy the Indians and wipe out the Buffalo herds. The romantic view of >American history credits the migration and nation building to rugged >individualism, but the so-called "pioneers" were more dependent upon >civilization and technology (particularly railroads) than any group of >people before them. They did not build log cabins, they used wood from >sawmills back east shipped by rail. They ordered the necessities of life >from Sears Roebuck catalogs, and shipped their crops and cows by rail back >east. People living on the frontier were much more dependent on big >corporations and big government than the folks back in Boston and County >Cork. ***{You are mixing apples and oranges. The fact that pioneers bought and sold within the private economy did not impair their freedom. However, to the extent that the government extended its reach westward, their freedom *was* impaired, because the government, with its troops and marshals and legislatures and police, is primarily a vehicle for enforcing conformity, and only incidentally and occasionally a protector of rights. The key force that extended the reach of the government westward was the land-grant railroads, which brought the mindless conforming masses west in great multitudes, at little cost--and sometimes at no cost at all. (Settlers moving west often moved for free, because the land-grant railroads regarded free passage as a way to build up a customer base.) Once great masses of ordinary people moved into an area, government followed, because ordinary people are obsessed with enforcing their lifestyles on others, and the government is their chosen instrument. --MJ}*** When you blast off for the planets and stars beyond, for the first >few generations you will be beholden to the taxpayers and corporate >sponsors back on Earth. ***{Incorrect. The first individuals moving west--the pioneers--were not beholden to government, and the communities which they formed were the most tolerant and thoroughly laissez faire societies that have ever existed on Earth. It was only later, after the conforming masses--the settlers--were transported into their midst by government subsidized land-grant railroads, that those freedoms were taken away. That, of course, posed no problem so long as the frontier continued to exist, because the children of pioneers could simply move further west and be pioneers themselves. And, in space, the same will be true, if a technology permitting individuals to transport themselves into space is developed. For, in that case, the frontier will exist again, and individuals who seek to be free can achieve that goal by merely packing their bags and moving out of reach of would-be tyrants. The communities which they form, like those formed by pioneers in the American west, will be tolerant and thoroughly laissez faire, and will *not* be beholden to taxpayers back on Earth. --MJ}*** > >Don't get me wrong. I am all in favor of space exploration and new >frontiers. But the frontier you speak of is in the human heart, morality >and imagination, and you could travel to the ends of universe and not >escape these things. ***{No. The frontier I have in mind is very real. It exists whenever those who value freedom enough to accept risks have technology that can take them out of reach of those who would oppress them. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 23:23:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23157; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:22:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:22:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000104001017.006cdc60 mail.eden.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 01:18:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: msg from Mizuno Resent-Message-ID: <"viLj93.0.kf5.v-PSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here's the latest from Mizuno. > >>Dear Scott >> >>Happy New Year >>I have seen your data and I found big difference with your heat release. I >>am very apologizes that I have not showed you to I am having used a fan of >>15cm diameter very close to the cell about 5cm. This fan is very effective >>to cool the cell. I think it is sometimes very difficult to communicate the >>information each other. >>My elevation of laboratory is 20m. You are concerning the boiling >>temperature, but these are not so big difference to affect on the boiling >>point. >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Tadahiko > >So, he's even lower (20 m) than I am (200 m), but neither of us is high >enough to have a big effect on the boiling point or evaporation rates. The >main point is that he has a little fan blasting away at the cell...that's >probably the entire difference between our cooling rates. ***{Scott, this doesn't make sense. I find it virtually inconceivable that the altitude within Sapporo varies from 20 meters to 1488 meters! That's about the same as the variation from Houston to Denver! Are you sure Mizuno understood your question? --MJ}*** > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 00:44:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA15341; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:43:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:43:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009b01bf5698$0c1e6700$30441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <001e01bf5662$18f11620$30441d26 fjsparber> <387169C7.683D44AF@carrollsweb.com> Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 01:41:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"E4e302.0.dl3.ZARSu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod & Mary Eastman To: Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 7:32 PM Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Rod Eastman wrote: > Frederick; > > Hi ! I've been subscribing to this list for sometime now, and I'de like to inquire as to > the basics of anti gravity you have been espousing. > The theory is based on a particle model that indicates that the gravity force is due to circling charge in the electron or positron and the quarks that make up matter, q = CV = (+/-) 1.602E-19 coulombs, a constant for any particle, and that the current loops set up by the revolving (or circularly commutating charge) is relativistically time-dilated thus resulting in the weak magnetogravity forces between masses. Thus if one can generate strong counter-fields at the right pulse rate, Anitgrav and Force Fields (Shields and "Tractor Beams") would be possible. > > Please keep in mind that I am NOT even an > ametuer scientist, just someone interested in the topic and tempted > to experiment some. I am by trade in Electronics and Computer programming, with > very little physics behind me, so any algebra you may toss my way will go to waste. > My main question is, is it possible to generate a large enough voltage between two > plates to defeat, or counter the effects of gravity ? That question is addressed in the Biefield-Brown Effect and Naudin's work, but I don't think he is working against the "Aether" to get the propulsion force, but rather it's either the Earth's " Fair Weather Field" or possibly with the high fields involved, induced interaction with the "Neutrino Sea". Thus it isn't an Antigrav Effect any more than an airfoil. Regards, Frederick > > Rod E. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 01:01:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17612; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:54:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:54:58 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: "E.F. Mallove" Subject: IE Article Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:54:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA17588 Resent-Message-ID: <"3sLjk1.0.2J4.YLRSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the Editor's Introduction to the article "An Alternate Interpretation of Mass-Gain at Near Light Velocities", by Dr. Paul Brown, in IE No.s 13 & 14 in 1997, Eugene writes: This is the first of a series of three articles by Dr. Paul Brown, which we are told will lead to the explanation of the observed performance of the Brown resonant nuclear generator (U.S. patent #4835433..... Since then Dr. brown has authored three other article in IE (that I could find), all pertaining to photo-fission. So Eugene, what happened to the other two articles on the resonant nuclear generator? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 03:13:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA11766; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:11:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:11:17 -0800 Message-ID: <20000104111114.11912.qmail web118.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:11:14 -0800 (PST) From: ron kita Subject: Toyota Antigravity Cars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Xt2dv2.0.lt2.LLTSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Last year at the STAIFF 99 meeting in Albuquerque, I was contacted by phone by one of the scientist from Toyota. He related that Toyota was interested in building "flying cars". Since I am on the web page of Antigravity News, he was looking for more information. Best, Ron Kita AGN http://www.padrak.com/agn BTW: The impedance of space is 377 ohms...something to think about. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 04:47:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA25258; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:46:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:46:16 -0800 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Cedric_Mannu?= To: Subject: RE: Turin Shroud C-14 Characters: What's in a name? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:48:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01bf56fd$65cad710$01010a0a WORKGROUP.eternite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3870DF84.3E15 ca-ois.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.5600 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"1uBsg.0.VA6.OkUSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Do you happen to know UPINSKY who was in charge of examining the different scientific pieces ? Is is then wrong that the British museum blatently falsified its datation ? Is it also false that we are not able to determine the kind of matter formed from the blood on the shroud (and it is not plasma ! plasma doesn't exits in blood) ? Is it false that historically, Church was the first one to say it was a fake, even against its own clergy or fidels ? I just counsel reading the book from Upinsky before concluding in a forgery. Actually, i don't think there is proof of forgery. There is proof of an incredible phenomenae (one calls it as he wishes then) made before Church was the trash it is, before Church was Church, when there were only pilgrims (apostles) on the road to speak for Over Unity, Transmutation, Spirit making matter better.... All things we can't avoid to rediscover now, whithout being blatently tricked, abused, wronged. C. Mannu PS : Anyway datation never worked. What is time ? Is time linear. The only natural time is cyclical (course of sun for example), so time does depend on an observer but is not a consequence of its psyche, it is a physical phenomena revealed by psyche. Natural time is not a constant, this is easy to proove. And of course, in the psyche also, time is not a constant. Psyche can even feel eternity (a complementary aspect to time). There are known cases were they add results from datation so false (for example on greek potery, "same time" as the Christ) that they dated it from the drawing of the potery, and its granularity (so without C14). Anyway the whole comprehension behind isotopes and C14 is wrong. There is a petition against principles, science now knows everything is H, aging and living is life. So they don't understand how H becomes another thing, and they think there able to make datation ??? >From my Ph D in History and Archeology, i know one thing, all datation is wrong (the three last centuries don't stand for the rest). But the principle of linear time is only a theorie, what if time is only the result of different velocity. And thus prehistoric can be in the same place and time as today but at a different velocity, and then time travel is possible... And then the shroud can be actual ? -----Original Message----- From: Jim Ostrowski [mailto:jimostr ca-ois.com] Sent: lundi 3 janvier 2000 09:42 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud C-14 Characters: What's in a name? Vorts, I'd just like to append one final thing to the Turin Shroud discussion: The names of two of the prominent characters involved in the Turin shroud sample taking, and size/ weight reporting appear to be an example of God's ironic humor: From: http://www.iea.com/~bradh/shroud/shroud_testhoax.htm "There was something even more serious. Through pushing Testore and Riggi into a corner during the weeks that followed (Oct.-Nov.1989), we ended by discovering that one of the samples sent to the laboratories was in two pieces!" Riggi-Testore!!??? I need say no more. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 05:46:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA10312; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 05:44:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 05:44:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104084445.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 08:44:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000103163326.018d33dc mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA10295 Resent-Message-ID: <"ffeuz1.0.2X2.MbVSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >According to an old World Book Atlas I have most of the city is below 500 >feet elevation. Jed, do you happen to know how high the University is? >I'll go ahead and ask Mizuno via email. Well, the highest place in town is Mt. Moiwa, at 531 meters. See: http://www.infocr.co.jp/hometown/sapporo/midoko-e.html I have found just about everything else about the Univ. on their English home page, including the names of their fishery training ships. See: http://www.hokudai.ac.jp/bureau/brief/page16.htm On another page, a Dr. Kiyoshi Ochifuji of the Faculty of Engineering, Hokkaido University says he has some kind of machine -- an IDMP; a telescope or something -- on the roof of a building at Latitude: 43°03' N, Longitude: 141°20' E, Height above sea level: 40 m. Ah, I see. "IDMP stands for International Daylight Measurement Programme. It was set up in 1991, by the Commission Internationale de l'Eclairage (International Lighting Commission) based in Vienna, Austria." It looks like the unit is installed on the roof of the Engineering Dept. It is amazing what you can find on the web these days . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:05:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15925; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:00:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:00:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:00:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. In-Reply-To: <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ecw7N3.0.lu3.OqVSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >BAAT have already done better than this with an existing vehicle, using >methods that could be incorporated into existing production lines at little >cost. They don't need to use hybrids at all. They have just improved the >combustion process. I do not know what "improving the combustion process" could mean. With a conventional ICE virtually all of the fuel burns, but only ~20% of it converts to propulsion. Old fashioned engines used to spew out unburned fuel, but it does not happen now. Anyway, assuming they have somehow improved fire, they could combine their technique with a hybrid car to achieve even higher efficiency. They might approach the thermodynamic limits. Countless people have claimed they have "a new carburetor" or some mysterious gadget they attach to your gas tank which makes your car go twice as far per gallon of gas. A common technique that actually works is modify the engine and add water to fuel. Apparently this extracts more heat from the fuel and makes the ICE work as a steam engine. The exhaust gas must be cooler than usual. However, it wrecks the ICE after a few months or years. As noted here years ago, this technique was used with WWII piston aero-engines, for emergency overboost I believe. Pilots who used emergency overboost wrote that it felt as if the plane was about to shake itself to pieces. The site www.baat.com/ is not working. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:15:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23507; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:12:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:12:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000104080911.01de7de8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 08:09:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104084445.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000103163326.018d33dc mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id GAA23488 Resent-Message-ID: <"gdP1Y3.0.Bl5.H_VSu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:44 AM 1/4/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >On another page, a Dr. Kiyoshi Ochifuji of the Faculty of Engineering, >Hokkaido University says he has some kind of machine -- an IDMP; a >telescope or something -- on the roof of a building at Latitude: 43°03' N, >Longitude: 141°20' E, Height above sea level: 40 m. I asked Mizuno, "what is the elevation of your laboratory above sea level"? He responded "20 meters". Jed found a rooftop device at the same university that is 40 meters above sea level. Seems that at least some of Sapporo is quite close to sea level. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:21:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23103; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:19:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:19:24 -0800 Message-ID: <38720210.AD9DBEBD bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:22:08 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BNRqP3.0.qe5.h5WSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > I think your contacts are a bunch of smartypants. ;) Sorry, I couldn't resist. Actually, this does deserve a brief comment. If you wanna discuss this in detail, we should move it to vortexb. As you might know, Dr. Steven Greer (www.cseti.com) claims to have "contacts" who allege that LockMart is building AG craft. He says that these witnesses are willing to come forward in Congressional Hearings if they are relieved from their secrecy oaths. Recently Dr. Jack Sarfatti (www.stardrive.org) challenged Dr. Greer with Jack's own LockMart employees who openly deny such technology. Their arguments are on their respective web pages and on www.sightings.com (search the archives there). Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:40:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA31743; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:39:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:39:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104093909.0079aca0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:39:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000104080911.01de7de8 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000104084445.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000103163326.018d33dc mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FfFAw.0.vl7.KOWSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Jed found a rooftop device at the same >university that is 40 meters above sea level. Same Department, same building! You can see the view and the local topography at: http://idmp.entpe.fr/stations/jpn03/jpn03.html >Seems that at least some of >Sapporo is quite close to sea level. As a matter of fact, Prof. Akimoto has a sailboat docked at the ocean not far away. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:43:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00344; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:40:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:40:45 -0800 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Cedric_Mannu?= To: Subject: RE: Turin Shroud C-14 Characters: What's in a name? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:42:17 -0800 Message-ID: <001801bf570d$56839ac0$01010a0a WORKGROUP.eternite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3870DF84.3E15 ca-ois.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.5600 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"kKmww1.0.I5.iPWSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, I was able to read the question from the start, by looking in the archive... Well, actually you don't seem to put the question on forgery but on the C14 test. So a little complement from my first mail must be given : Upinsky who was in charge of the international commission, asked for counter expertise. British museum refused. >From the copies (filtered) of their results (?), the inconsistencies you spoke about appeared. Then, a russian team who was charged to make the test, concluded positively concerning the datation. But Vatican prefered not to put this forward and discredit Museum. Upinsky did it on the International Scientific Commission side, and was able to demonstrate 18 points prooving the identity of the shroud. One of them, really interesting, speaks of the Holy Tunic (the Christ wore it, before being recovered by the shroud), the marks correspond between the two relics. Either they were forged in the same time, either... There is a lot of good information in his book concerning the identification. C14 is not the prefered option. They mainly worked on describing the wounds, checking historical data and funeral rites. Very good work indeed. I don't know if it's translated in english, i wrote it in french. Anyway for C14 it's really not so strange, and already happened. You remember the prehistoric man in the Alps ? There are many cases when C14 in fact is falsely dated afterwards, when people has already examined seeds, clothes... Next to speak with you. I've got no problem with OU, i like Jean Louis Naudin work, Schauberger, and genius that were to his level, but i don't give A credit to radioactivity, C14, and things like this. There are many ways to understand quantic ! A good friend of mine is barded with scientific medals, and happened to work in the quantic field. Quantic helps him understand Schauberger... But he likes C14 the same i like it. It's obviously false. (put it crude). Isotopic notion is already wrong, since it goes against H, and all we found since quantic. Matter is once again one. But since some of you seems to have very good notions of the hamiltonians, and all the tralala, maybe you could put it in better terms ? As for me, i don't make much after this kind of formulation : common H = H1 He = H4 common C = H12 isotopic stable C = H14 (nature creation) unstable isotopic C = C14 (human creation) (same rays, different properties, and thus some problems). C. Mannu -----Original Message----- From: Jim Ostrowski [mailto:jimostr ca-ois.com] Sent: lundi 3 janvier 2000 09:42 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Turin Shroud C-14 Characters: What's in a name? Vorts, I'd just like to append one final thing to the Turin Shroud discussion: The names of two of the prominent characters involved in the Turin shroud sample taking, and size/ weight reporting appear to be an example of God's ironic humor: From: http://www.iea.com/~bradh/shroud/shroud_testhoax.htm "There was something even more serious. Through pushing Testore and Riggi into a corner during the weeks that followed (Oct.-Nov.1989), we ended by discovering that one of the samples sent to the laboratories was in two pieces!" Riggi-Testore!!??? I need say no more. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:49:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA02320; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:44:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:44:01 -0800 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Cedric_Mannu?= To: Subject: RE: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:45:27 -0800 Message-ID: <001901bf570d$c78b4dd0$01010a0a WORKGROUP.eternite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <38720210.AD9DBEBD bellsouth.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.5600 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"uVGFi.0.8a.mSWSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, Of course no one is building AG craft (Ag craft, what a heavy duty), they're building levitation craft :) Well, anyway, if they don't, maybe some do... C. Mannu (could not resist also, levitation is a "self" evidence, as should say some orthodox mystics, who made it by their own body, and there many a testimonial on this aspect). -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: mardi 4 janvier 2000 06:22 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Rick Monteverde wrote: > > I think your contacts are a bunch of smartypants. ;) Sorry, I couldn't resist. Actually, this does deserve a brief comment. If you wanna discuss this in detail, we should move it to vortexb. As you might know, Dr. Steven Greer (www.cseti.com) claims to have "contacts" who allege that LockMart is building AG craft. He says that these witnesses are willing to come forward in Congressional Hearings if they are relieved from their secrecy oaths. Recently Dr. Jack Sarfatti (www.stardrive.org) challenged Dr. Greer with Jack's own LockMart employees who openly deny such technology. Their arguments are on their respective web pages and on www.sightings.com (search the archives there). Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 07:56:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00918; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:53:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:53:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104084445.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000103163326.018d33dc mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991230215425.006b7340 mail.eden.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:50:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - cooling rates Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA00878 Resent-Message-ID: <"pXE_T.0.AE.zTXSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott Little wrote: > >>According to an old World Book Atlas I have most of the city is below 500 >>feet elevation. Jed, do you happen to know how high the University is? >>I'll go ahead and ask Mizuno via email. > >Well, the highest place in town is Mt. Moiwa, at 531 meters. See: > >http://www.infocr.co.jp/hometown/sapporo/midoko-e.html > > >I have found just about everything else about the Univ. on their English >home page, including the names of their fishery training ships. See: > >http://www.hokudai.ac.jp/bureau/brief/page16.htm > >On another page, a Dr. Kiyoshi Ochifuji of the Faculty of Engineering, >Hokkaido University says he has some kind of machine -- an IDMP; a >telescope or something -- on the roof of a building at Latitude: 43°03' N, >Longitude: 141°20' E, Height above sea level: 40 m. > >Ah, I see. "IDMP stands for International Daylight Measurement Programme. >It was set up in 1991, by the Commission Internationale de l'Eclairage >(International Lighting Commission) based in Vienna, Austria." It looks >like the unit is installed on the roof of the Engineering Dept. > >It is amazing what you can find on the web these days . . . ***{It is indeed. For example: "Sapporo, Japan's third largest city in area, is located on western plains of Hokkaido, the northern most island of Japan. More than 60% of the city, primarily the southwest sector is mountainous, and therefore urban activity is concentrated on the "Sapporo fan" formed by the Toyohira River, which runs through the city. Sapporo lies in the sub-frigid zone. For this reason, summers are cool and pleasant, and winters are cold and snowy. The average temprature is 10.1C (1990). Precipitation in 1990 was 1,067mm. The first snow usually comes at the end of October, but sonw does not accumrate on the road until December. Low pressure fronts from Siberia bring heavy sonw in January and February. The average temperature in January, the coldest month of 1990, was -4.9C. Natural Features of Sapporo Area:1,121.18 Km2 Dimensions: East-West 42.30 Km North-South 45.40 Km Circumference 363 Km Location: East 141.30'E. long. West 140.59'E. long. South 42.46'N. lat. North 43.11'N. lat. Highest elevation: Mt.Yoichi 1,488m." Source: http://www.asiams.com/hokkaido.htm. If all of these facts are true, then Sapporo undoubtedly exhibits the greatest variation of altitude within its city limits of any city on the planet! > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 08:44:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22197; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:37:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:37:19 -0800 Message-ID: <007101bf56d1$f6eddac0$1f627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000103111815.00798de0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Intelligent Y2K roundup Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:37:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"vGzbC1.0.jQ5.-6YSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Imagine the problem in year 9999, with 8000 years worth of software to deal with! Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 08:58:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28901; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:55:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:55:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104115502.00799790 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 11:55:02 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More thoughts about the Y2K roundup . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WEQaZ1.0.R37.pNYSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Y2K story is shaping up in an interesting way. Our high-tech society worked the way it is supposed to. The public and media perceptions of the story are fascinating. When all is said and done, I think the media did a good job describing the complexities and the fact that nobody could predict the outcome. The hysteria-mongers and the "Christian authors" of these grocery store hardback books got a well-deserved comeuppance. The way this issue got mixed up with religious millennium fears will interest sociologists. I bought a souvenir copy of the Weekly World News with wonderful lurid headlines: January 1, 2000. Is this the end? The day the earth stands still! All banks will fail! Food supplies will be depleted! The stock market will crash! Electricity will be cut off! Vehicles using computer chips will stop dead! There is an equally enlightening story here about, "Belly Button Psychic . . . Tells futures by touching tummies!" It shows "satisfied client" Christine Phrede relaxing as the psychic predicts her future by touching her forehead and navel. Those of us who are trying to champion cold fusion see ourselves as fighting against this same kind of ignorant, anti-technology, anti-science hysteria. Not in the Weekly World News, which is harmless entertainment, but in places like the APS. We are portrayed as "true believers" who believe in the malarkey peddled in these grocery store checkout-line magazines. Cold fusion does attract borderline people who believe in "free energy," freaks like Renzo Boscoli, and people who think ordinary flow calorimeters or whirling mechanical gadgets are perpetual motion machines. But the mainstream CF scientists are staid, conservative experimentalists. "We are painfully conventional," as Martin Fleischman says. Accepting cold fusion is the *conservative* stance; rejecting it requires that you rewrite the textbooks. Here are more good followup Y2K stories: Reaping Benefits from Y2K upgrades -- http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/01/03/y2k.long.term/ http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/01/04/y2k.outlook/index.html Quote from article: At greatest risk in the private sector are the accounting, inventory, invoicing, billing and other systems integral to survival -- a crazy quilt of interconnected programs often cobbled together over decades. Such "custom applications," also common in government agencies, are nothing like the control systems at power and water plants, which are typically spare, easy to maintain and fortified by built-in redundancy. I was well aware of the latter years ago, which is why I remained sanguine about the infrastructure, power, water and so on. That's why Terry Blanton, who knows a lot more than I do about these systems, remained Mr. Cool. Naturally, these software systems did require careful checking, but control software often requires patching for various other reasons, such as the installation of new equipment. If the power company engineers had not performed careful Y2K remediation over the last five years, the world would have come to a grinding halt on Friday night. By the same token, if other power company employees had not performed routine maintenance on the boilers over the last five years, the plants would have blown up and the world would have come to halt. Why did anyone ever doubt these people know how to do their jobs?!? Go to any store, factory or farm, and you will find someone doing a complex, difficult job that you could not begin to handle. Most work is harder than it looks. Our survival depends upon competent experts doing their job well. Some people find this alarming, yet it has been true since the invention of agriculture 10,000 years ago. I still expect things like insurance claims and inventory to be tangled up for months, in companies that depend upon old mainframe software. Software written in the last five years will cause no significant problems. Some diehard pessimists still claim that bad data will lurch through the networks from obsolete computers to infect modern systems, causing the old and new systems to collapse like falling dominoes. This is nonsense. I have written many programs to transfer data from one computer to another. Garbled or incomplete data, impossible dates, non-existent part numbers and the like have always been a problem. The interface programs must correct this sort of thing, or flag the records, filter them out and alert the operator. Data validation should be built into every step, since data can be corrupted at an time. In a Y2K glitch, a video rental store in Albany, NY charged a customer a $91,250 late fee because the computer thought the tape was 100 years late. With or without a date glitch, this should not have happened. The maximum number of days a tape can be missing and the maximum late fee should both be checked against a range of numbers. The program should have displayed an error message instead printing an absurd invoice. I have mixed feelings about Y2K. On one hand I'm pleased and proud that the programmers did such a fine job fixing the problem ahead of time. On the other hand, they caused it! It is like the hole the CF scientists have dug themselves into. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 09:07:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05322; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:06:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:06:08 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:02:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. Resent-Message-ID: <"Ul44G3.0.sI1.vXYSu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>BAAT have already done better than this with an existing vehicle, using >>methods that could be incorporated into existing production lines at little >>cost. They don't need to use hybrids at all. They have just improved the >>combustion process. > >I do not know what "improving the combustion process" could mean. With a >conventional ICE virtually all of the fuel burns, but only ~20% of it >converts to propulsion. ***{There are lots of ways to get more usable power per gallon of fuel. For example, about 25 years ago I played around with the idea of using exhaust manifold heat to vaporize the incoming gasoline, before it entered the cylinder. It was a way to improve the proportion of fuel burned without leaning out the mixture. The design I worked out would have yielded a huge improvement in fuel efficiency, but would have introduced risks of fires and explosions when the units, due to age or accidents, began to leak. In a free society, of course, that would have been no problem: all important technologies, in their infantcy, are dangerous. It is only after decades of use and improvements that they become safe and reliable. The avaition pioneers, for example, shouldered the risks, and many of them died, to give us what is, today, the safest form of transportation (though it could still be vastly improved by implementing the Burnelli "lifting body" design). Unfortunately, we no longer live in a free society, and nascent technologies for the most part fall dead born shortly after conception, due to impediments erected by government out of supposed "safety" concerns. That was certainly the reason I went no further with my idea: I wasn't willing to waste decades of my life struggling with brain-dead "authorities" in an attempt to bring the design to fruition. (In a free country, you would simply build a product and start selling it, making it clear that buyers used it *at their risk*. Result: those who wanted usable fuel in excess of 90% badly enough to accept the risks associated with the technology could use it; and those who were more timid could continue to do things the conventional way. But under fascism, that simple choice isn't permitted: the vendor is not allowed to escape liability by selling a product only to those who agree to assume the risks themselves. Result: the rate of technological progress is vastly less that it might have been, with massive adverse consequences in terms of human well-being and longevity.) --MJ}*** Old fashioned engines used to spew out unburned >fuel, but it does not happen now. ***{They also produced more useful power per gallon of fuel burned, because prior to the advent of government regulation, carburetors were optimized with that goal in mind. Today, by government mandate, fuel/air mixtures are excessively lean--too little fuel for the amount of air--because the goal is not to position the engine at the peak of its power curve, but to minimize pollution. Result: vast amounts of fuel are burned in "modern" engines, not to produce useful work, but merely to satisfy government emissions restrictions. --MJ}*** Anyway, assuming they have somehow >improved fire, they could combine their technique with a hybrid car to >achieve even higher efficiency. They might approach the thermodynamic limits. > >Countless people have claimed they have "a new carburetor" or some >mysterious gadget they attach to your gas tank which makes your car go >twice as far per gallon of gas. A common technique that actually works is >modify the engine and add water to fuel. Apparently this extracts more heat >from the fuel and makes the ICE work as a steam engine. The exhaust gas >must be cooler than usual. However, it wrecks the ICE after a few months or >years. As noted here years ago, this technique was used with WWII piston >aero-engines, for emergency overboost I believe. Pilots who used emergency >overboost wrote that it felt as if the plane was about to shake itself to >pieces. ***{The main impediment to improved fuel efficiency lies in the regulatory environment, not in the engineering. --MJ}*** > >The site www.baat.com/ is not working. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 10:14:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26761; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:12:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:12:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104131208.0079b4e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:12:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"P7BKS3.0.3Y6.-VZSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >(In a free >country, you would simply build a product and start selling it, making it >clear that buyers used it *at their risk*. Result: those who wanted usable >fuel in excess of 90% badly enough to accept the risks associated with the >technology could use it . . . There is a big problem with this libertarian philosophy. You can see it on any street of Atlanta, any day. Stinking old automobiles pass by, leaving great clouds of smoke. They are registered in outlying rural counties where pollution control and inspection laws are lax. They would not be allowed in Atlanta or DeKalb County. It takes only a handfull of people to make the rest of us miserable: less than 5% of the cars produce about half the pollution. When the police crack down on trucks periodically they find about a third of them have bad brakes, mechanical malfunctions, worn-out chains or improperly secured freight. The truck drivers are risking their own lives and the lives of others. Two years ago, improperly secured steel rods fell off of a truck here in Atlanta and killed the driver of a car, who was a friend of mine. On three occasions, large, dangerous objects fell on the road in front of me, including a pitch fork on Peachtree Industrial Boulevard. In the Jones scenario, he and his customers would not be the only ones at risk. They would endanger the rest of us, especially people who choose to live in cities. The problem is, there are any number of irresponsible people who would be happy to endanger other people to save a few dollars. They do it now, despite the rules. If we relax the rules, and make exceptions for people who claim they are driving "experimental" cars, every irresponsible jerk in Atlanta would claim he is driving an experimental car, hauling freight with an experimental truck, or running an experimental factory. We would soon find ourselves back in the conditions of the 1930s, when factories, automobiles, ships, docks and shipyards were deathtraps. Workers were routinely killed and mangled, including my father. People of his generation understood the need for regulations, laws, and inspections. People like Jones have no historical memory of the horrible conditions in the bad old days which prompted modern laws. Experimental automobile fuel systems often pollute too much, and they sometimes explode. Even the first generation hybrid electric vehicles engineered by Toyota produce too much pollution in some categories, because the ICE turns on and off frequently. If the risks could be confined to Jones and his customers alone I would have no objection, but a high-tech society cannot be run by 18th-century rules. I sympathize with libertarianism, but it must be tempered with pragmatism, knowledge of history, and respect for the laws and customs our ancestors left to us. They were not fools. They did not impose a frustrating web of petty red tape for no reason. We must be very careful when tampering with social institutions and laws. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 12:37:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11292; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:34:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:34:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3872597A.2E452E76 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:35:09 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Some comments about cold fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vUj8q2.0.Mm2.KbbSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To All: I would like to comment on the exchange noted below. Over the years, Dick Blue, Rich Murray and others have argued that the phenomenon called cold fusion is unreal. For many years, these arguments were rational and reasonable. Now, after over 10 years of work by hundreds of scientists in over a dozen countries, the arguments are wearing thin. Hundreds of examples of excess energy, many examples of anomalous nuclear products and several replications of a relationship between energy and helium production all should cause an open-minded person to stop and ask just what is going on here. Of course, many failed attempts to duplicate these effects have been reported. This mixture of positive and negative results produces a conflict in many minds which is resolved in two ways. Some people, such as Dick Blue, conclude that the negative results prove the claims can not be duplicated, hence are not real. This attitude is supported by no acceptable explanation for the positive results being available. On the other hand, other people accept the positive results and conclude that failure to replicate is caused by failure to truly duplicate conditions present during the positive experiments. An explanation is not considered to be important at this stage of the game. Normally, science functions by taking a mixed approach with some work being rejected for good reason and some accepted when it is well done. Unfortunately, this is not the way the game is played by many people in science these days, in this field as well as in other fields. My experience in this debate tells me that this conflict will not be resolved until all of the variables affecting positive results are understood and failures can be largely prevented. This condition is slowly being achieved, no thanks to people who try to prevent such studies because they think them a waste of time and money. Until then, such discussions with people who reject the effect out of hand, such as Dick Blue, are a waste of time. If people want to understand what is known about the phenomenon, many sources of such information are now available. Acrimonious discussion is no longer necessary. Regards, Ed Storms Rich Murray, > You wrote: > I want to praise "Infinite Energy" magazine, which in the > last issue reported that their own lab proved that the Case cell, which > got a lot of attention the last year, did not produce excess heat. I take exception to your statement. The most basic sense of logic would tell anyone that a failure to find excess heat hardly can be called proof that the Case cell does not work. Being open about research results is paramount, but is thwarted by your kind of dishonesty. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com My, my but these Cold-Fusioneers do seem to operate in a strange world in which all null results are to be ignored, and anyone who sites such negative evidence is accused of "dishonesty." I suspect what we have here is more of the ongoing confusion concerning the proper way to evaluate scientific evidence that includes apparent conflicts. Making a critical evaluation of the evidence -- all the evidence -- is paramount. Being open to false, erroneous, misleading, misinterpretted and discredited research results does not have the merit that Edward Wall appears to suggest. When an honest attempt to repeat a given experiment does not replicate the earlier result certainly that fact must be considered along with the original claim. A debate as to what is "proven" or "disproven" by either of the conflicting results is essentially off target as we must deal here with inductive logic rather than deductive logic. Edward Wall, I would suggest, needs to sharpen his skills with the former and be less concerned about the latter. If the operation of a succession of calorimetric devices by Case, Wall, or whoever were the only observations to be considered in the evaluation of cold fusion claims the carry- over of this discussion into a second decade might have some merit, but that is not the case here. Other evidence must be considered as well. Just how open are you, Mr. Wall, to that other evidence? Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 12:52:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17051; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:45:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:45:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104154501.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 15:45:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion In-Reply-To: <3872597A.2E452E76 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"w7qmJ1.0.GA4.KlbSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >To All: >I would like to comment on the exchange noted >below. Note: This exchange occurred outside of Vortex. It was conducted by Rich Murray . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 13:11:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26505; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:09:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:09:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104131208.0079b4e0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:06:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. Resent-Message-ID: <"66wth2.0.2U6.x5cSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>(In a free >>country, you would simply build a product and start selling it, making it >>clear that buyers used it *at their risk*. Result: those who wanted usable >>fuel in excess of 90% badly enough to accept the risks associated with the >>technology could use it . . . > >There is a big problem with this libertarian philosophy. You can see it on >any street of Atlanta, any day. Stinking old automobiles pass by, leaving >great clouds of smoke. They are registered in outlying rural counties where >pollution control and inspection laws are lax. They would not be allowed in >Atlanta or DeKalb County. It takes only a handfull of people to make the >rest of us miserable: less than 5% of the cars produce about half the >pollution. ***{Your misery is a creation of your belief system, not a fact of reality. When I see "stinking old automobiles pass by, leaving great clouds of smoke," it bothers me not a whit. Most of the people who drive such vehicles live near the edge of poverty, and have better things to do with their money--e.g., buy food for their children, or fix a leaky roof, or get a brake job--than throw it away cleaning up their emissions so that elitist snobs will not be offended. --MJ}*** When the police crack down on trucks periodically they find >about a third of them have bad brakes, mechanical malfunctions, worn-out >chains or improperly secured freight. ***{What would you expect them to "find"--that everything is just fine, and that their assistance is not required? When has any bureaucrat ever reached the conclusion that his "services" are not needed, and that people can get by just fine without him? Not lately, if ever. The point: you cannot believe the "findings" of persons whose incomes and feelings of self-worth require them to reach a particular conclusion. --MJ}*** The truck drivers are risking their >own lives and the lives of others. Two years ago, improperly secured steel >rods fell off of a truck here in Atlanta and killed the driver of a car, >who was a friend of mine. On three occasions, large, dangerous objects fell >on the road in front of me, including a pitch fork on Peachtree Industrial >Boulevard. ***{I am sorry your friend was killed, but every bad thing that happens in the world is *not* an excuse which justifys taking more of peoples' rights away. To argue the contrary is to argue in favor of tyranny because, as the bumper sticker says, "Shit happens." Result: if we continue taking more rights away every time a bad thing happens, eventually all of our rights will have been taken away, and we will find ourselves living under conditions of abject slavery. (In that case, what will have been the point of the Civil War, which you described in an earlier post as a "triumph"? What is the point of sacrificing hundreds of thousands of lives to free blacks from bondage, if we are thereafter to pursue policies that will not merely reimpose the yoke of servitude on their backs, but on ours as well?) The proper way to deal with safety issues is to recognize that real solutions to social problems do not take people's rights away. A real solution, in the present case, would recognize: (a) that people have a right to privacy--which means: a right to drive down the road without being stopped for "inspections;" (b) that to threaten is a crime--which means: evidence of a dangerous, threatening condition--e.g., an unstable, wildly gyrating load--constitutes probable cause for a traffic stop; (c) that actual injuries or deaths attributable to negligence are grounds for civil and/or criminal proceedings against those responsible. Beyond that, there is nothing to be done, because human rights are far, far more important than the pursuit of fantasy goals such as that of reducing accidental injuries and deaths to zero. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >In the Jones scenario, he and his customers would not be the only ones at >risk. They would endanger the rest of us, especially people who choose to >live in cities. The problem is, there are any number of irresponsible >people who would be happy to endanger other people to save a few dollars. >They do it now, despite the rules. If we relax the rules, and make >exceptions for people who claim they are driving "experimental" cars, every >irresponsible jerk in Atlanta would claim he is driving an experimental >car, hauling freight with an experimental truck, or running an experimental >factory. ***{They shouldn't have to "claim" anything. Neither you nor anyone else ever proved that top-down control enhanced safety, as compared to a system where property owners make safety-related decisions themselves. People have better things to do with their time than spend it sitting by the side of the road while some officious busybody with a badge "inspects" their vehicle or the load they are carrying to determine whether it meets his approval. If the arrangement meets the owner's approval, that means in his opinion it is good enough to transport him and his load to his destination without exposing him to injury, death, or prosecution; and, in the vast majority of cases, he is going to know a hell of a lot more about the matter than a cop. In those rare cases where he turns out to be wrong, he will pay the price in terms of his own injury or death, damage to his vehicle, or by facing civil and/or criminal prosecution. That is the way things must be done, if human rights are to be respected. --MJ}*** We would soon find ourselves back in the conditions of the 1930s, >when factories, automobiles, ships, docks and shipyards were deathtraps. ***{Pure unadulterated balderdash. --MJ}*** >Workers were routinely killed and mangled ***{More exaggeration. Accidents happened then, as now, and will continue to happen in the future. It's simply the way the world is. Fortunately, the rate of industrial accidents has been declining since the industrial revolution, as understanding of safety techniques has improved, and as muscle power has been progressively replaced by machine power. These trends are likely to continue as long as technological progress continues--which means: as long as some portion of mankind retains the freedom to innovate. --MJ}*** , including my father. People of >his generation understood the need for regulations, laws, and inspections. >People like Jones have no historical memory of the horrible conditions in >the bad old days which prompted modern laws. ***{Rubbish. You have no idea about the state of my historical knowledge, and your pejorative speculations on that subject are manifestly irrelevant to the issue we are presently discussing. However, since you bring the matter up, I cannot help but note that I regard you as not merely historically ignorant, but also as wildly biased and, as a result, virtually hysterical whenever you encounter someone who argues that the government does not "protect" us when it strips our precious rights away. Wild exaggerations, such as your statement above that in the 1930's "factories, automobiles, ships, docks and shipyards were deathtraps" are a routine part of your modus operandi. By and large, you leave me with the impression that you have never had an original thought on the subject of government--that your head is full of second-hand statist garbage that you uncritically memorized during your years of forced confinement within our "educational" system--and that you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that the puerile trash that routinely passes from your lips on the subject is your own original creation. --MJ}*** > >Experimental automobile fuel systems often pollute too much, and they >sometimes explode. Even the first generation hybrid electric vehicles >engineered by Toyota produce too much pollution in some categories, because >the ICE turns on and off frequently. > >If the risks could be confined to Jones and his customers alone I would >have no objection ***{Risks cannot be infallibly confined to innovators and their customers under any system whatsoever, because human beings make mistakes. That explicitly includes the system you advocate, in which government thugs are free to "inspect" us at will, to treat us as if we were animals, and to generally do any damn thing to us that they please. Thus the question is not how to reduce external risks to zero, but how best to deal with safety issues *in a way that respects our rights as human beings*. --MJ}*** , but a high-tech society cannot be run by 18th-century >rules. I sympathize with libertarianism, but it must be tempered with >pragmatism, knowledge of history, and respect for the laws and customs our >ancestors left to us. ***{Which ancestors? The Founding Fathers? They left us a free country. But historically ignorant "pragmatists" such as yourself showed no respect for the laws and customs they handed down to succeeding generations, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the present day advocates of liberty will show your intellectual predecessors precisely the same deference which they showed to ours--to wit: none whatsoever. --MJ}*** They were not fools. They did not impose a >frustrating web of petty red tape for no reason. We must be very careful >when tampering with social institutions and laws. ***{The generations of so called "Americans" who obediently absorbed the fascist and socialist garbage that was served up to them in government schools, and averted their eyes while human predators fastened the yoke of tyranny around their necks were worse than fools: they were, and are, purely evil. That judgment applies to them for precisely the same reason that it applies to the "good Germans" who soaked up antisemitic filth in the state schools of the Third Reich, and averted their eyes while Jewish shops were firebombed, while Jewish citizens were beaten and spat upon in the streets, and, finally, while the death trains rolled. People who are so obsessed with fitting in that they will close their minds to horror are pure subhuman filth, whatever their country of national origin, or race, or creed. Evil is, in the final analysis, an equal opportunity employer. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:49:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27361; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:47:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:47:42 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:47:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <23u47sca8er59nlh4afbpafo3h2ui5vnbq 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360@pop.mindspring.com> <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f@4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA27328 Resent-Message-ID: <"ANwq8.0.Rh6.CYdSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:00:46 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >The site www.baat.com/ is not working. If you are quick, this site now appears to be working. > >- Jed Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 15:23:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07189; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:20:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:20:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104182044.0079ae10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:20:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000104131208.0079b4e0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DpCYh2.0.Fm1.O1eSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote that the people who devised industrial health and safety laws, "were not fools. They did not impose a frustrating web of petty red tape for no reason. We must be very careful when tampering with social institutions and laws." Mitchell Jones responded with a typical hyperbole: The generations of so called "Americans" who obediently absorbed the fascist and socialist garbage that was served up to them in government schools, and averted their eyes while human predators fastened the yoke of tyranny around their necks were worse than fools: they were, and are, purely evil. Let me be specific and personal here Mitch. I'm not talking about ancestors in the abstract. My father nearly lose his arm in 1938 in a shipboard accident. He survived by a miracle, in those days before penicillin. He saw many other people crushed to death or maimed. Decades later, he worked in the U.S. Bureau of Standards, where he helped set standards, and develop tests and procedures for things like building materials and fireproofing. These standards have saved many lives and billions of dollars, and prevented incalculable heartache. Of course it wasn't only the government that accomplished this. Enlightened industry leaders, insurance companies, Underwriter's Laboratory and others made vital contributions to the reduction in industrial accidents. It has been a cooperative effort. It was one of the most magnificent accomplishments of the 20th century, along with improvements in public health. When you foam at the mouth, and rail on in perfect ignorance of this history, and call it "tyranny," and say the people who did this were "pure evil" and "predators" and Nazis and the like, you are talking about my family, my father. I think you should apologize and shut up. In the future I think you should tone it down. That kind of language is totally inappropriate here. And if you sincerely believe I am a fascist, I think you should go to hell. Specifically, you should move to Mexico City and breathe the filthy air there until you collapse from lung disease. Perhaps that will teach you the value of public health standards. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 15:26:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09401; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:24:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:24:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000104182428.0079f290 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:24:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. In-Reply-To: <23u47sca8er59nlh4afbpafo3h2ui5vnbq 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bEwaH3.0.jI2.v4eSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>The site www.baat.com/ is not working. > >If you are quick, this site now appears to be working. The page is a little confusing. It has a variety of apparently unrelated stuff on it. Since it comes and goes, could you please point out or quote the part you are referring to? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:34:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05491; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:30:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:30:33 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <0.290a376d.25a3ea7c aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:29:48 EST Subject: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA05425 Resent-Message-ID: <"x564g2.0.aL1.e2fSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, First run completed. Here are the results: Run Duration was 1 hour 15 minutes; that is, I held the fill and current parameters listed below for that time and recorded all parameters at the 1hr 15min mark. Run number 1 04JAN2000 H2 fill------10.0 Torr Tube Volts---819 Tube Amps----0.262 Tube Watts---21.45 Degrees C----261.5 Degrees/Watt-12.19 Temperature degrees C ±0.1C Volts DC ±1% Amps DC ±1% Compare this first run with the calibration runs posted on Vortex-L 11-06-99: FILL---Tc-----Tv-----Ta-----Tw----Tc/W 10.0--345.8--1564--0.0204--31.90--10.84 10.0--370.8--1835--0.0215--39.45--09.39 10.0--295.1--1076--0.0238--25.60--11.52 Degrees per watt are up from the 10.583 average to 12.19 for this first run. I question the tube voltage down from average 1491 to 819. One possibility is the electrode gap. Very small change makes for large voltage difference. At the time of the 10 Torr calibration runs I was measuring the gap with a ruler scale but now I use a vernier caliper. Another cause of the difference could be the presence of metallic K vapor in the tube. I will conduct another run tomorrow. As before, all runs are done with a new quartz tube. The electrodes are reused after polishing and cleaning. I first wash the electrodes in distilled water then soak in a 30% HCL solution for 2 hours. Wash again in distilled water. Electrodes are then polished chucked in a drill press with 600 grit wet sandpaper,wet with 100% isopropyl alcohol then washed in acetone and air dried. As always, comments and suggestions are most welcome. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:58:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14479; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:54:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:23:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2m357s8oi1aqm4e5jehjj4f21m9hu5g01q 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360@pop.mindspring.com> <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f@4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0@po p.mindspring.com> <23u47sca8er59nlh4afbpafo3h2ui5vnbq 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000104182428.0079f290@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104182428.0079f290 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA14364 Resent-Message-ID: <"dEzZ63.0.fX3.PPfSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:24:28 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>>The site www.baat.com/ is not working. >> >>If you are quick, this site now appears to be working. > >The page is a little confusing. It has a variety of apparently unrelated >stuff on it. Since it comes and goes, could you please point out or quote >the part you are referring to? > >- Jed A good starting point is http://www.baat.com/pulsecharge/default.htm . Then read the various pages pointed to under "Features" in the column on the right. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:49:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07304; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:47:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:47:02 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <0.748552d3.25a3fc87 aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:46:47 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"nhMA-.0.sn1.LAgSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 1/2/00 10:35:44 PM, Colin Quinney wrote: <> Almost isn't good enough. I think Mills is the only one who really spells out a method for achieving antigravity. See his 1999 book. What's the reaction to his ideas been among those who follow antigravity? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:59:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12745; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:55:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:55:05 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <0.34f9366c.25a3fe72 aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:54:58 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"DgwQJ1.0.273.uHgSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/4/00 4:34:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, VCockeram aol.com writes: Oops, I dropped a zero from amps. > Run number 1 04JAN2000 > H2 fill------10.0 Torr > Tube Volts---819 > Tube Amps----0.262 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Tube Watts---21.45 > Degrees C----261.5 > Degrees/Watt-12.19 Correction; Tube amps should be 0.0262 sorry for the finger check. Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 19:32:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28585; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:27:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:27:36 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104182044.0079ae10 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000104131208.0079b4e0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000104090046.007ad4d0 pop.mindspring.com> <5rb27sog9fq03053bcd9tdjoomsum3md5f 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000103111755.0079a360 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:23:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Toyota hybrid car info. Resent-Message-ID: <"cA2Ld1.0.P-6.XehSu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I wrote that the people who devised industrial health and safety laws, >"were not fools. They did not impose a frustrating web of petty red tape >for no reason. We must be very careful when tampering with social >institutions and laws." Mitchell Jones responded with a typical hyperbole: > > The generations of so called "Americans" who obediently absorbed > the fascist and socialist garbage that was served up to them in > government schools, and averted their eyes while human predators > fastened the yoke of tyranny around their necks were worse than > fools: they were, and are, purely evil. > >Let me be specific and personal here Mitch. I'm not talking about ancestors >in the abstract. My father nearly lose his arm in 1938 in a shipboard >accident. He survived by a miracle, in those days before penicillin. He saw >many other people crushed to death or maimed. Decades later, he worked in >the U.S. Bureau of Standards, where he helped set standards, and develop >tests and procedures for things like building materials and fireproofing. >These standards have saved many lives and billions of dollars, and >prevented incalculable heartache. ***{Wrong again. Government mandated standards for building materials, electrical connections, construction techniques, etc., have the opposite effect from that which their busybody proponents claim to intend, because they provide politically connected insiders, in the building trades and elsewhere, with the opportunity to obtain regulations that they can use against would be competitors. None of the "standards" which you love so much arise in a vacuum. What invariably happens is a prolonged process of interaction in which the big companies in the affected industries, by paying lobbyists, funding political junkets, passing out "consulting fees", and dozens of other tricks of the trade, bring about standards that are, in essence, written by themselves. The result is to raise entry costs in the affected industries. The established companies, with platoons of lawyers and huge research budgets, can fast track their products through the regulatory obstacle course, whereas small competitors with innovative products cannot. Lacking the financial muscle to push against the inertia of the regulatory framework for years and years, most such companies either go under in short order, or else are never started at all. Consider, for example, the plight of a would-be automotive start-up: today you can't simply work out a design and start building and selling cars from your garage workshop. Instead, you have to run a regulatory obstacle course that requires an expenditure of tens of millions of dollars before you get permission to sell your first car. Result: the automotive industry, by means of fascist "safety" and "environmental" regulations, has become a protected enclave of stagnating oligopolists, hidden behind an impenetrable maze of governmental regulations. They might as well be agencies of government, in fact. None of them would survive a decade if their industry were opened up to competition again, as it was when it began. And the same situation applies throughout our overregulated, fascistic economic system, in the building trades, in pharmaceuticals, in the aircraft industry, in steel, and on and on and on. In the building trades, in particular, it is routine practice to slap up ticky-tacky tract homes, in vast numbers, that are just barely up to "governmental standards" that, in effect, were written by the developers themselves! By such means they are enabled to palm off on members of a gullible public homes that, in a free market, would never have been built. The reason they would not have been built is simple: in a competitive industry, where barriers to entry have been removed, the dominant firm is always going to be the company that delivers the best value for the money; and no such firm would ever put up the kind of junk that we see routinely in the present U.S. housing industry. To see why that is the case, let's consider a concrete example. When Hurricane Andrew swept across Florida a few years ago, the result was a vast amount of airborne television footage that illustrated the total bankruptcy of the present fascistic system in the building trades: mile after mile of demolished ticky-tack tract homes passed across the screen, and then, as if by a miracle, there would appear a home built 75, or 100, or 125 years ago, standing untouched in a sea of devastation. This happened over and over and over again. Such homes were built *before* there were building codes, before you had to obtain a permit to build, or be inspected, etc. Result: they were built strong: with redundant cross bracing in walls, floors, roofs, and ceilings, with heavy oak doors, with functional shutters that actually closed and locked, rather than useless ornamental crap. How were such techniques possible? Simple: these were owner-built homes, and, as a consequence, they were extremely low cost. In the free market environment that existed then, the would be homeowner didn't need anyone's permission to build a house. He just worked out a plan, bought the materials, and put the damn thing up himself. Result: he was not forced to pay a contractor's costs of labor, his markup on materials, or the expenses which contractors incur bribing the right people at city hall. Result: the money saved--which would be roughly 75% of the cost of a "modern" home--was diverted into improving the quality of the product. In a free market, in short, large developers must confront the fact that most of their potential customers are in a position to simply build their own home if they don't like the quality or the price of the tract homes that are served up to them. In such an environment, vast numbers of people will have had experience building their own homes, and will be able to spot ticky-tacky crap at a glance. Result: firms that try to palm such garbage off on the public will find few takers, and will go under. Result: on the free market, the big developers have to deliver as much, or more, value for the dollar as an owner built home delivers. Result: the quality of home construction is *vastly higher* in a free market, than under fascism. --Mitchell Jones}*** Of course it wasn't only the government >that accomplished this. Enlightened industry leaders, insurance companies, >Underwriter's Laboratory and others made vital contributions to the >reduction in industrial accidents. It has been a cooperative effort. It was >one of the most magnificent accomplishments of the 20th century ***{No it wasn't. As I noted in my previous post, the rate of industrial accidents has been declining since the industrial revolution, due primarily to the fact that more and more of the work, and thus the risks, are incurred by machines rather than by men. Improvements in industrial safety, in short, are almost entirely due to technological progress. And, since technological progress is most rapid under laissez faire capitalism, it follows that industrial safety will be highest there as well. --MJ}*** , along with >improvements in public health. When you foam at the mouth, and rail on in >perfect ignorance of this history, and call it "tyranny," and say the >people who did this were "pure evil" and "predators" and Nazis and the >like, you are talking about my family, my father. I think you should >apologize and shut up. ***{All I did, Jed, was supply a description of a certain type of human being, and then note that a person with those characteristics was purely evil. I did not say that your father had those characteristics; hence I did not say that your father was, or is, evil. But now you have aroused my curiosity, so let me quote my words, as a preliminary to asking you a question. I said: "The generations of so called "Americans" who obediently absorbed the fascist and socialist garbage that was served up to them in government schools, and averted their eyes while human predators fastened the yoke of tyranny around their necks, were worse than fools: they were, and are, purely evil. That judgment applies to them for precisely the same reason that it applies to the "good Germans" who soaked up antisemitic filth in the state schools of the Third Reich, and averted their eyes while Jewish shops were firebombed, while Jewish citizens were beaten and spat upon in the streets, and, finally, while the death trains rolled. People who are so obsessed with fitting in that they will close their minds to horror are pure subhuman filth, whatever their country of national origin, or race, or creed. Evil is, in the final analysis, an equal opportunity employer." Are you saying that the above description applies to your father? If so, then he should apologize to me, and to the country, rather than I to him. --MJ}*** In the future I think you should tone it down. That >kind of language is totally inappropriate here. ***{You are the one who brought up the question of how those who condoned and supported the destruction of our freedoms ought to be characterized, Jed. You said "They were not fools. They did not impose a frustrating web of petty red tape for no reason." Your clear implication was that the advocates of tyranny who have dragged this formerly great nation down into the muck are to be applauded for their perspicacity. I have a different view of them, and I conveyed it to you in very explicit and forceful terms. If there is some element of that description which you find inappropriate, why not explain what that is, and why you object to it? --MJ}*** And if you sincerely >believe I am a fascist, I think you should go to hell. ***{In order to discuss the direction which this nation has taken over the last hundred years, it is necessary to use descriptive terminology. The most appropriate term, in my view, is "fascism." While I have applied that term to the trend which you, on various occasions, have applauded, I have deliberately *not* applied it to you. The reasons are: (a) I don't presume to be broadly familiar with your views about an issue as vast as this, and (b) my opinions about your inner mental state are irrelevant to the subject matter which we are discussing. More generally, I try to avoid pejorative speculations about the mental states of persons with whom I argue, because I find such comments to be destabilizing: if I direct pejoratives at you, then you will be tempted to direct them back at me; and if you do, I cannot complain, since I will have been the one who fired the first shot. As to whether I believe you are a fascist, well, since you bring the matter up, I do, though I will admit there is a (slim) possibility that I could be wrong. As for your advice that I should go to hell, it is duly noted and has been filed in the appropriate location. --MJ}*** Specifically, you >should move to Mexico City and breathe the filthy air there until you >collapse from lung disease. Perhaps that will teach you the value of public >health standards. ***{Since we seem to be exchanging suggestions, here's one for you: go back and look at photographs taken in English and American cities, back when the burning of coal was the preferred method of heating homes in the winter. What you will see are buildings covered with layers of soot, and, in your mind's eye, you should see that many of the people who lived in those cities had lungs to match. Nevertheless, the health related effects of burning coal were positive, not negative, because the cheapness and ready availability of coal enabled vast numbers of poor people to be warm in winter, and saved thousands of lives per year that would otherwise have been lost due to prolonged exposure to cold. Importantly, the sooty atmosphere during those times was not cured by government regulation, but by technological progress--to wit: by the advent of natural gas and electric heating systems, with their attendant reduction in airborne pollutants. And that brings me to my point: air pollution has been falling steadily as technology has advanced, from the beginning of the industrial revolution to the present, as heating systems which make progressively more efficient use of fuels have been developed. This is why pollution levels have always been inversely correlated with technological development and industrialization, and, since technological development is most rapid in nations with the least government control, that explains why pollution levels were so much higher in the nations of the former Soviet bloc than in the West. Bottom line: the cure to air pollution is technological progress, and, since technological progress is most rapid in nations that have more respect for property rights, it follows that laissez faire capitalism is the cure for air pollution. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 21:47:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25357; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:46:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:46:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000104234726.006e79cc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:47:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill In-Reply-To: <0.290a376d.25a3ea7c aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3RaDp.0.2C6.pgjSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:29 PM 1/4/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >Run number 1 04JAN2000 >H2 fill------10.0 Torr >Tube Volts---819 >Tube Amps----0.262 >Tube Watts---21.45 >Degrees C----261.5 >Degrees/Watt-12.19 Vince, please describe the present power supply arrangement and the present method of measuring voltage, current, and wattage. Thanks Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 21:48:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24824; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:46:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:46:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000104234658.006eec48 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:46:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill Cc: Verdian aol.com In-Reply-To: <0.290a376d.25a3ea7c aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JTq2j3.0.k36.cgjSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:29 PM 1/4/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >Run number 1 04JAN2000 >H2 fill------10.0 Torr >Tube Volts---819 >Tube Amps----0.262 >Tube Watts---21.45 >Degrees C----261.5 >Degrees/Watt-12.19 Vince, please describe the present power supply arrangement and the present method of measuring voltage, current, and wattage. Thanks Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 07:29:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03258; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:28:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:28:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000105102804.00798a60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 10:28:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: How to donate old computers & electronics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XJxZt1.0.qo.8CsSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many people buy new computers, modems or printers for Christmas. You can find a place to donate your old equipment in many U.S. cities, Pakistan or Sri Lanka at this web site: http://216.247.78.253/reuse/search.asp?type=r - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 10:03:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32317; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:02:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:02:23 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <53.53f24f27.25a4e127 aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:02:15 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA32295 Resent-Message-ID: <"-VcJl2.0.ru7.kSuSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/4/00 9:47:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: > >Run number 1 04JAN2000 > >H2 fill------10.0 Torr > >Tube Volts---819 > >Tube Amps----0.262 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Correction previously posted Amps are 0.0262 sorry, I dropped a zero here. > >Tube Watts---21.45 > >Degrees C----261.5 > >Degrees/Watt-12.19 > > Vince, please describe the present power supply arrangement and the present > method of measuring voltage, current, and wattage. OK Scott, here is a repost of November 6, 1999: All, I have finished calibration runs of glow discharge in a .22 inside diameter quartz tube. All runs use an electrode gap of 0.5 inch. Upper electrode is positive potential, grounded, lower electrode, negative. Both electrodes are 0.125 diameter W rods. The anode rod has a round end (.062 radius) while the cathode has a sharp 30 degree cone pointed end. I have found this arrangement is the best for a stable discharge and also keeps tube wall contamination by W vapor at a minimum. Much trial and error to get to this arrangement. The power supply is capable of supplying 3500 volts at 1 ampere of well filtered DC. The positive side of the power supply is grounded. The supply was constructed using a microwave oven transformer and a 4 diode full wave bridge rectifier. Filtering is by means of two 12 microfarad 5 kV capacitors connected in parallel. I have checked the supply with an oscilloscope for AC ripple using the 16 ballast lamps as a load and the DC output has less than 1 volt of ripple from low to high power. A bank of 16 25 watt incandescent lamps in series is used as a ballast. The lamps are in the circuit at the low potential side of the reactor tube as shown below: TUBE BALLAST PS (-)--•-----[///////]---•------(A)---------/\/\/\/\/--------(+) PS (grounded leg) |____(V)___| The ammeter is connected directly in circuit as shown while the voltmeter measures the voltage across a 100:1 divider network, not shown in this ASCII drawing. I use two ammeters in series, the Radio Shack and a Simpson 260 analog as a cross check. Additionally, a 5 microfarad capacitor is connected across the voltmeter leads at the voltmeter. This to smooth out the readings on the digital meter. The discharge is noisy at times and the capacitor helped to get stable readings on the digital meter. Both meters are Radio Shack digital auto-ranging multimeters Cat Num 22-174B. The reactor tube is completely enclosed in a 1/2 inch diameter copper pipe 3 inches long with the ends necked down to a snug fit around the 3/8 inch diameter quartz tube. This copper pipe has a K type thermocouple attached to the outside by a 8x32 screw. The copper pipe is enclosed in a steel can 2½ inches diameter and 4 inches in length, packed with fiberglass insulation. The copper pipe has a 0.25 inch hole cut where a short piece of quartz tube runs through to the outside of the steel can which is used as a viewport. The quartz tube viewport is plugged with a carbon rod plug during runs. The copper pipe is held centered in the steel can by a ceramic support at each end of the can. Tube fill pressure is monitored by a Baratron MKS 626A absolute pressure manometer. Temperature is monitored by a Fluke model 51 electronic thermometer and the K bead type thermocouple. Sorry, I don't have a mercury thermometer that will go to 1000 C. On each run with a new quartz tube I first flush the tube 5 times with H2 (fill to 1000 torr then pump down for 15 minutes) then I run at a low current glow discharge current of about 2 ~ 5 milliamps while pumping the best vacuum I can (~25 millitorr) for 3 hours. Tube voltage during this low current discharge is up at ~3,000 volts. I then fill the tube with H2 to the fill for the run and try to keep the tube current at about 20 to 25 milliamps. Higher current causes W vapor to deposit on the tube walls which screws up the discharge (conductive plating on the tube walls) while lower current gives problems with keeping the glow stable. OK, nuff said bout the setup, so here is the raw data for all 18 runs,dashes separating the columns: Fill=Torr ±1 torr Tc=tube degrees C ±0.1 C Tv=tube voltage ±1% Ta=tube amperes ±1% Tw=tube watts (Tv x Ta) Tc/W= degrees C per Watt FILL----Tc---------Tv-------Ta--------Tw------Tc/W 10.0---345.8---1564---0.0204---31.90---10.84 10.0---370.8---1835---0.0215---39.45---09.39 10.0---295.1---1076---0.0238---25.60---11.52 20.7---221.9---0759---0.0257---19.50---11.37 20.0---193.5---0766---0.0219---16.77---11.53 20.0---203.5---0750---0.0209---15.67---12.98 50.0---193.7---0625---0.0227---14.18---13.66 50.0---170.5---0588---0.0219---12.87---13.24 50.0---181.9---0615---0.0215---13.22---13.75 100.0--206.1---0740--0.0228---16.87---12.21 100.0--209.4---0734--0.0235---17.24---12.14 100.0--210.1---0689--0.0230---15.84---13.26 150.0--190.6---0716--0.0214---15.32---12.44 150.0--239.5---0788--0.0231---17.97---13.32 150.0--200.8---0801--0.0194---15.54---12.92 175.0--221.1---0909--0.0229---20.81---10.67 175.0--241.5---0834--0.0225---18.76---12.87 175.0--225.2---0844--0.0213---17.97---12.53 I now have a pretty good feeling of tube temperatures for a given power input. Of course now when I dump K in the tube it will open another can of worms, like K plating out on the tube walls and so on. I plan to load the K in the tube at the very bottom of the tube,underneath the cathode to try avoid contamination around the tip of the cathode. The lower end of the tube gets hot enough to melt and boil the K. I'll have to play around with the amount of K, just enough to get some vapor in there without too much to cause electrode and tube wall contamination. -----------------------End of 6NOV99 repost----------------------- (Which is what I have been doing since I posted this on November 6th. About 0.5 gm of K was what I ended up with) > > Thanks > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International Hope this is what you requested Scott. I may not get another run in today as I was lazy and didn't do the electrode cleaning yesterday. Tomorrow for sure though. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 10:48:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15606; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:47:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:47:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:44:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: The Nature of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"QWwwO3.0.lp3.k6vSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: "The generations of so called "Americans" who obediently absorbed the fascist and socialist garbage that was served up to them in government schools, and averted their eyes while human predators fastened the yoke of tyranny around their necks, were worse than fools: they were, and are, purely evil. That judgment applies to them for precisely the same reason that it applies to the "good Germans" who soaked up antisemitic filth in the state schools of the Third Reich, and averted their eyes while Jewish shops were firebombed, while Jewish citizens were beaten and spat upon in the streets, and, finally, while the death trains rolled. People who are so obsessed with fitting in that they will close their minds to horror are pure subhuman filth, whatever their country of national origin, or race, or creed. Evil is, in the final analysis, an equal opportunity employer." Jed objected to the above statements, and so I have decided to elaborate. Let me begin by noting that there are three ways in which children respond to the statist propaganda that is routinely served up to them in government schools: (1) A few students focus their minds on the propaganda, analyze it, formulate criticisms, research alternate viewpoints, and ultimately reject the propaganda, despite the fact that such a course of action will bring them into direct conflict with their teachers. (2) The immense majority essentially ignore the propaganda: they make little or no effort to study it or remember it, and essentially fly by the seats of their pants when tests are given. Result: their grades suffer, but they remain somewhat open to alternative views, if they should ever encounter them. Unfortunately, the mental inertia which they exhibited in school is habit forming, and in their later life will prevent most of them from becoming consistent proponents of any view. They will thus remain, as adults, what they were as children: confused, undecided, and full of conflicting impulses and ideas. (3) A few students focus their minds on the propaganda and analyze it, but deliberately avoid criticizing it or researching alternate viewpoints, because their goal is to retain the material and believe it, in order to curry favor with their teachers and, sometimes, with their parents. It is my view that persons who follow procedure (1) are moral, those who follow (2) are amoral, and those who follow (3) are immoral. Moreover, since those who follow (3) are choosing evil, they deserve to be condemned in no uncertain terms. Just as the German officials who sought to justify evil *actions* by claiming to have been "obeying orders" were rightly condemned in the aftermath of the Nuremberg trials, so too those who attempt to justify evil beliefs in the same way also deserve to be condemned. The desire to fit into a group or to curry favor with an authority figure does *not* relieve us of the obligation to judge their assertions, any more than it justifies us in obeying their orders. Nor does being a child justify such behavior. Evil is what it is, irrespective of the age, sex, race, creed, or national origin of the perpetrator. If there is an effective way to resist, we are obligated to find it and do it, and when we default on that responsibility, we are morally compromised. Period. There aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. For those of you who think that beliefs are less important than actions, I suggest you ask yourselves what would have happened, in the Third Reich, if the citizenry had primarily fallen into category (1), above. The answer is simple: the situation would have been utterly transformed, because the only reason there was no effective way to resist Hitler was that almost no one fell into category (1). What this means is that those who did not default on their responsiblity to rationally judge the assertions of authority were isolated. When they put out feelers to their fellow citizens (e.g., by mildly criticizing some of Hitler's actions), either indifference or hostility came back to them, and they were forced to withdraw into a self-protective shell and concentrate on their own survival. But if the German nation had contained large numbers of moral people--people who formed reasoned judgments about the assertions of authority and acted on those judgments--then the person who put out feelers would have received *positive* responses. Result: an organized and powerful opposition movement would have been possible, and the Nazis could have been removed from power without the necessity to devastate most of Europe and kill millions in the process. That is the key point, where opposition to tyranny is concerned: to be effective, it must take place within a population that contains large numbers of moral people. That condition was met in colonial America, and as a result, the American Revolution succeeded; but it was *not* met in Nazi Germany, and as a consequence, all of the organized attempts to resist Hitler were abject failures. Can opposition to tyranny succeed in present-day America? The answer, in my opinion, is no: most contemporary Americans fall into category (2), while those in category (3) *vastly outnumber* those in category (1). Result: America's time in the sun is over. We are, as I have often said in the past, merely a stock market crash away from the advent of a brutal authoritarianism. When that event arrives, as it inevitably must, the few voices of reason will be overwhelmed by the din from those clamoring for the government to solve the crisis which it created, and eager to give it unlimited powers to assist it in doing so. At that point the Fourth Reich will emerge, in fact if not in name, and the libertarian optimists will finally begin to see the error of their ways. What they should have done was devote their intellects to finding a technology that would restore the frontier, rather than to pointless political action within a system dominated by evil. Had they followed that route, they might have succeeded, by the sheer weight of their intellects--and they still might--but the window of opportunity is closing fast, and the darkness is rapidly gathering around us. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 11:01:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20928; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:59:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:59:48 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:59:37 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA20815 Resent-Message-ID: <"yqJCp1.0.I65.VIvSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Trouble with ASCII art. The dwg incorrectly shows negative leg ground. Should be: TUBE BALLAST PS (-)--•-----[///////]---•------(A)-----/\/\/\/\/----(+) PS(grounded leg) |____(V)___| Hope it comes out right this time. Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 11:04:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18854; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:57:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:57:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000105125421.01de928c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:54:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The Nature of Evil In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"egrx21.0.Wc4.gGvSu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:44 PM 1/5/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: Would you please remove this discussion to Vortex-b? Vortex-l is primarily for discussion of experimental results, new physics, etc. Thanks, Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 12:47:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06009; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:45:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:45:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000105140938.014a1730 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 14:09:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <0.748552d3.25a3fc87 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"k4z9l1.0.lT1.wrwSu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom, I don't know that Mills has shown by experiment any positive results yet, or if even begun. I found out just today that with Fran DeAquino, it is too soon, but some ELF/gravity experiments are being planned by an acquaintance. Correct me about Mills-- I am totally unfamiliar with his work so there may be some positive experimental responses of which I am unaware. I'd love to know that this is true. If this is Randal Mills that you are referring to here though, doesn't he have a tendency keep some things rather close to his chest? We know that there have been some successes with superconductors (Podkletnov, Schnurer) and we know that the Wallace spin-gravity patents were based on real experiments after reading the Robert Stirniman 1998 article. There have also been a few electrogravity experiments utilizing the motion of charges. These most probably require additional investigation. I personally am leaning toward this charge-motion. It may be something as simple as a change of acceleration of charge-- but will this produce an inertial field, a gravity field, or a frame dragging field? I am at the disadvantage here. My math/physics is not optimal so-- Oft times when a regular on Vortex posts something about gravity, the only thing I can do is recognize the pearls. Fred has recently posted here a few fascinating posts about electrogravity. And if I had several millions of dollars, I would just hire the whole lot of you, because I love this subject so much. Whatever works. . that's my motto. :-))) Colin Quinney At 08:46 PM 01/04/00 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 1/2/00 10:35:44 PM, Colin Quinney wrote: > ><details a method (well, almost..) for generating an antigravity field that >predicts Ultra Low EM Frequencies for best effect.>> > >Almost isn't good enough. I think Mills is the only one who really spells >out a method for achieving antigravity. See his 1999 book. > >What's the reaction to his ideas been among those who follow antigravity? > >Tom Stolper > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 13:23:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04766; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:19:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:19:18 -0800 Message-ID: <007501bf57ca$d1e32d80$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Hoverboard Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:17:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"D8_Kz.0.NA1.LLxSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The striking simliarity between the Biefield-Brown "Capacitor" and PC boards, gives one pause to wonder if pulsing the High Voltage fed to a board terminated in it's characteristic impedance Zo, would gain some lift advantage? The impedance Zo = (spacing/width)* (L/C)^1/2 ohms Pulse velocity, v = (1/L*C)^1/2, C = k*eo*area/thickness, L = ? The 1.5 millimeter thick PC boards could stand off some very high voltage,especially if the conductive facing was etched off back from the edges. The metal coating could then be covered with thick insulating plastic. In this case pulse rate, duration, and amplitude might be more efficient, as long as the board is terminated with resistors R that equal Zo, and can handle dissipating the pulses. Since the board is acting as a terminated "Stripline" transmission line, the actual frequency is the rate of recharging the infinitesmal LC elements in the board and is much greater than the pulse rate. Why get all wet surfing on water when you can strap a power-pack on your back and surf the the tree-tops, Rick? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 13:43:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11166; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:41:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:41:23 -0800 Message-ID: <005501bf57a2$1c6bab80$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:23:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tX3Ux1.0.Ok2.2gxSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PC Board "Stripline" Transmission Line? Something to try, Colin. The characteristic impedance, Z = (spacing/width)* (L/C)^1/2 ohms For a 1.0 meter square PC Board C = k*8.84E-12* Area/Thickness, don't know for sure if L = 4(pi)*1.0E-7. Velocity, v = (1/L*C)^1/2 Assuming that k = 2.2 and L = 4(pi)E-7 C = 1.95E-11 farads Z = (L/C)^1/2 = (1.257E-6/1.95E-11)^1/2 = 10.88 ohms and v = (1/L*C)^1/2 = (1/1.257E-6*1.95E-11)^1/2 = 8.03E6 meters/sec By "beefing up" the input and output edges you can apply pulses to the input edge and load the output edge with resistors (incandescent or gas discharge light bulbs) that are equal in resistance to the Characteristic impedance Z (10.88 ohms). If the board takes off into the Wild Blue Yonder when you pulse it..... :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 16:01:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31039; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:59:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:59:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:09:15 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tank Circuit Analysis In-Reply-To: <000901bf5248$943fdf00$3a441d26 fjsparber> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6TbVF2.0.da7.GhzSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The capacitor voltage will be V*Cos(wt), where w^2=1/(LC), and t is time. Hank On Wed, 29 Dec 1999, Frederick Sparber wrote: > A Tank Cicuit is named such because it can store energy and if it is > a Superconductor oscillate indefinitely. > > I couldn't find any literature to treat the following problem: > > A lossless capacitor C is charged to a voltage V before connecting to > the lossless inductance L across the capacitor. > > Since a parallel resonant tank circuit is resonant when Xc = Xl or > the energy in C = 1/2CV^2 = the energy in L = 1/2LI^2 , what is the > waveshape and magnitude of the Voltage and Current of the oscillations? > > Anyone? > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 16:09:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01722; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:06:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:06:08 -0800 Message-ID: <00a701bf57e2$1e73e380$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Tank Circuit Analysis Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:05:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"-711Q1.0.pQ.lnzSu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: hank scudder To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 3:09 PM Subject: Re: Tank Circuit Analysis Tanks Hank. :-) Regards, Frederick > The capacitor voltage will be V*Cos(wt), where w^2=1/(LC), and t is time. > Hank > > On Wed, 29 Dec 1999, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > A Tank Cicuit is named such because it can store energy and if it is > > a Superconductor oscillate indefinitely. > > > > I couldn't find any literature to treat the following problem: > > > > A lossless capacitor C is charged to a voltage V before connecting to > > the lossless inductance L across the capacitor. > > > > Since a parallel resonant tank circuit is resonant when Xc = Xl or > > the energy in C = 1/2CV^2 = the energy in L = 1/2LI^2 , what is the > > waveshape and magnitude of the Voltage and Current of the oscillations? > > > > Anyone? > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 17:03:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15232; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:00:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:00:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000105200151.00a615c0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:01:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <005501bf57a2$1c6bab80$2e441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"087gk2.0.fj3.Na-Su" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ron Kita reminds us that the impedance of space is 377 ohms, Fred. Hmmm. Since we will be pushing against space (so-to-speak :), why not try to match the Z's? How many square meters for 377 Ohms? Colin At 09:23 AM 01/05/00 -0800, Frederick wrote: >PC Board "Stripline" Transmission Line? > >Something to try, Colin. > >The characteristic impedance, Z = (spacing/width)* (L/C)^1/2 ohms > >For a 1.0 meter square PC Board C = k*8.84E-12* Area/Thickness, don't >know for sure if L = 4(pi)*1.0E-7. > >Velocity, v = (1/L*C)^1/2 > >Assuming that k = 2.2 and L = 4(pi)E-7 C = 1.95E-11 farads > >Z = (L/C)^1/2 = (1.257E-6/1.95E-11)^1/2 = 10.88 ohms > >and v = (1/L*C)^1/2 = (1/1.257E-6*1.95E-11)^1/2 = 8.03E6 meters/sec > >By "beefing up" the input and output edges you can apply pulses to the input edge >and load the output edge with resistors (incandescent or gas discharge light bulbs) that >are equal in resistance to the Characteristic impedance Z (10.88 ohms). > >If the board takes off into the Wild Blue Yonder when you pulse it..... :-) > >Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 17:06:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18621; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:02:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:02:05 -0800 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:05:34 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:04:40 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 16:58:56 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: RE: The Nature of Evil In-reply-to: To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:05:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2368ZYGRPU9YP X400-MTS-identifier: [;43508150100002/4373118 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"KcfFK3.0.nY4.Cc-Su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, >Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: Please take this off topic subject to the VORTEXB-L (B as in BS) list. I'll let God decide who is evil or not according to His definition, and not the delusions of an anarchist. I generally don't call people names, but in this case you probably don't think it is a bad name. Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 17:12:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21932; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:07:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:07:35 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:07:22 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"AVAHn3.0.VM5.Lh-Su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/5/00 12:47:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, quinney inforamp.net writes: > Correct me about Mills-- I am totally unfamiliar with his > work so there may be some positive experimental responses of which I am > unaware. I'd love to know that this is true. > Colin Quinney Colin, Go to: http://www.blacklightpower.com There is a link on the home page to experiments and validations.(many of these) Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 17:31:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA29488; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:29:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:29:21 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:40:58 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: Vortex Subject: Re: Spin question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <386953E4.9F4D6C5C gorge.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HvfCw2.0.gC7.m_-Su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The photon as a particle is tested in the photo-electric effect. Light at a given frequency hitting a surface causes electrons to be emitted if the frequency is raised so the photons energy (hv) is above the work-function of the surface. At frequencies below the threshold, no electrons are emitted, no matter how bright the light is. This explanation is what Einstein received the Nobel prize for. The electron spin is demonstrated by the splitting of a spectroscopic line into a pair of lines in the presence of a magnetic field. Look up the Zeeman effect. Hank On Tue, 28 Dec 1999, Tom Miller wrote: > John Schnurer wrote:> TO RECAP: > > > > An electron is said to spin.... > > An electron is said to orbit the nucleus > > > > Q: What primary experiments let us prove this? > > Q: What demonstrates this orbiting? > > > A seemingly simple question, about a fundamental issue. To it, I would > add: > > A photon is said to be a particle > > Q: What primary experiment(s) let us prove this? > > > IF we can look at these basic issues, without filtering the evidence > through > the prejudicial glass of what "WE ALL KNOW," maybe we can begin to allow > for > alternate concepts. > > Physics describes protons and electrons such that the description more > or > less fits the experimental evidence. What if there were other ways of > describing them, which ALSO more or less fits the available evidence. > > What if Mills isn't crazy? > > What if the guy who used to be here, and was about to write a book about > how electrons, etc. were TOROIDs? (Sorry, I can't remember his name.) > > What if it was ALL about VORTICES? > > What if the concepts of "charge" and "magnetism" could be explained by > the > topography of these two particles? (Maybe even "gravity?") > > What if? > > What I think is that no one will even attempt to answer these questions. > > I think we are more interested in Shrouds, politics, and vertical flow > calorimeters, to even start looking at anything which might not fit > "what we all know." > > > If I had any money to bet, I would bet that that is exactly what will > happen. > > Tom Miller > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 17:37:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22491; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:35:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:35:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00c101bf57ee$96b76ea0$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <3.0.5.32.20000105200151.00a615c0 inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:34:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"jFSIs2.0.BV5.m5_Su" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Quinney To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Colin wrote: > Ron Kita reminds us that the impedance of space is 377 ohms, Fred. > Hmmm. Since we will be pushing against space (so-to-speak :), why not try > to match the Z's? > > How many square meters for 377 Ohms? The Capacitance of Space (eo) 8.84E-12 farads/meter is a Length Only property. The Inductance of Space (uo) 4(pi)E-7 henry/meter is a Length Only property also. Thus (uo/eo)^1/2 = 377 ohms You're not "pushing against space" but, against the field generated by inertial mass. If you antigrav off the Earth , before long you will be antigraving off the Sun. If the vacuum had mass/energy/inertia you wouldn't see light from time zero. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Colin > > At 09:23 AM 01/05/00 -0800, Frederick wrote: > >PC Board "Stripline" Transmission Line? > > > >Something to try, Colin. > > > >The characteristic impedance, Z = (spacing/width)* (L/C)^1/2 ohms > > > >For a 1.0 meter square PC Board C = k*8.84E-12* Area/Thickness, don't > >know for sure if L = 4(pi)*1.0E-7. > > > >Velocity, v = (1/L*C)^1/2 > > > >Assuming that k = 2.2 and L = 4(pi)E-7 C = 1.95E-11 farads > > > >Z = (L/C)^1/2 = (1.257E-6/1.95E-11)^1/2 = 10.88 ohms > > > >and v = (1/L*C)^1/2 = (1/1.257E-6*1.95E-11)^1/2 = 8.03E6 meters/sec > > > >By "beefing up" the input and output edges you can apply pulses to the > input edge > >and load the output edge with resistors (incandescent or gas discharge > light bulbs) that > >are equal in resistance to the Characteristic impedance Z (10.88 ohms). > > > >If the board takes off into the Wild Blue Yonder when you pulse it..... :-) > > > >Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 19:12:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03933; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:11:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:11:25 -0800 Message-ID: <009101bf57d3$2acda760$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Pulsed Lines & Gravitons? Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:17:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"RsMj62.0.Jz.TV0Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since a line is made up of infinitesmal LC units as each unit charges and discharges with charge (+/-) q = CV the pulse formed would seem to square with the "Graviton" proposed in QED etc. With the frequencies in the the range greater that of x-ray photons they would penetrate any material and act with a force on the frequencies/pulses generated in that material. Pulsed lines should generate these? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 20:30:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10393; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:29:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:29:11 -0800 Message-ID: <38741013.3F09 ca-ois.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 19:46:27 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Nature of Evil References: <3.0.1.32.20000105125421.01de928c mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SVOnA2.0.JY2.Ne1Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 12:44 PM 1/5/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: > > Would you please remove this discussion to Vortex-b? Vortex-l is primarily > for discussion of experimental results, new physics, etc. > Your right Scott. Mitchell, my response to your usual BS is on the vb channel. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 20:31:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10755; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:29:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:29:24 -0800 Message-ID: <38741905.6BFC ca-ois.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:24:37 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Nature of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="PROP103.TXT" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="PROP103.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA10490 Resent-Message-ID: <"xWre63.0.yd2.Ye1Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: > > "The generations of so called "Americans" who obediently absorbed the > fascist and socialist garbage that was served up to them in government > schools, and averted their eyes while human predators fastened the yoke= of > tyranny around their necks, were worse than fools: they were, and are, > purely evil. Nah. Thoughtless maybe. Unobservant perhaps. Evil is when you participate with wrongdoing knowinglyand voluntarily. That means doing things that one knows are wrong, but one goes ahead and does them anyway. Some evil is so subtle that the effects are long term and hard to discern, like monetary inflation. Monetary inflation is the result of an "evil" money scam on the part of the government/banking monopoly, but most people go along with it, thinking nothing at all about it, because they are unable to discern the effect of that evil, inflation. Ever noticed how the cost of automobiles has gone into the stratospheric regions over the last couple of decades? In 1974 I bought a brand new Camaro Z28 for 4800 "dollars", now the equivalent newest version of the Z28 is in the $27,000 range. In 1974 I made about 8 bucks an hour, full time, good money for back then. If I were to work at a job similar to what I had then, I would make about $15 an hour. Obviously, had I just worked the same job all those years, I would have to work almost 3* as long just to pay off the same kind of new car. > That judgment applies to them for precisely the same reason > that it applies to the "good Germans" who soaked up antisemitic filth i= n > the state schools of the Third Reich, and averted their eyes while Jewi= sh > shops were firebombed, while Jewish citizens were beaten and spat upon = in > the streets, and, finally, while the death trains rolled. People who ar= e so > obsessed with fitting in that they will close their minds to horror are= > pure subhuman filth, whatever their country of national origin, or race= , or > creed. Evil is, in the final analysis, an equal opportunity employer." Hitler had in effect declared war on the Jews, for reasons that he thought were valid, and he had managed to convince the German people that those reasons were valid, too. Declaring war on any race or group of people is very difficult to justify, however, we had no problem making such justifications as were necessary to declare war on the Japanese, which required an overt act on their part, the attack on Pearl Harbor. As for the Jews, I suppose history will record no overt acts on their part, but that is because, in the end, the Jews won, achieving their objective which was the acquisition of what was then called Palestine, and Hitler lost, failing to achieve his objective, whatever that might have been. History is always written by the victors. What Hitler used to justify a defacto declaration of war on the Jews was perhaps more subtle, and harder to discern than an overt attack like Pearl Harbor, but it was nonetheless real and had a foundation in actual events and occurrences. Just for fun and the sake of debate, I'll outline them here. The following is snipped from the site: http://www.propaganda101.com/a.htm Introductory Note: Benjamin H. Freedman was one of the most intriguing and amazing individuals of the 20th century.Mr. Freedman, born in 1890, was a successful Jewish businessman of New York City who was at one time the principal owner of the Woodbury Soap Company. He broke with organized Jewry after the Judeo-Communist victory of 1945, and spent the remainder of his life and the great preponderance of his considerable fortune, at least 2.5 million dollars, exposing the Jewish tyranny which has enveloped the United States. Mr. Freedman knew what he was talking about because he had been an insider at the highest levels of Jewish organizations and Jewish machinations to gain power over our nation. Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, and John F. Kennedy, and many more movers and shakers of our times. This speech was given before a patriotic audience in 1961 at the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C., on behalf of Conde McGinley's patriotic newspaper of that time, Common Sense. Though in some minor ways this wide-ranging and extemporaneous speech has become dated, Mr. Freedman's essential message to us -- his warning to the West -- is more urgent than ever before. -- K.A.S. "Here in the United States, the Zionists and their co-religionists have complete control of ourgovernment. For many reasons, too many and too complex to go into here at this time, the Zionists and their co- religionists rule these United States as though they were the absolute monarchs of this country. Now you may say that is a very broad statement, but let me show you what happened while we were all asleep. "What happened? World War I broke out in the summer of 1914. There are few people here my age who remember that. Now that war was waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.Within two years Germany had won that war: not only won it nominally, but won it actually. The German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the convoys from the Atlantic Ocean. Great Britain stood there without ammunition for her soldiers, with one week's food supply -- and after that, starvation. At that time, the French army had mutinied. They had lost 600,000 of the flower of French youth in the defense of Verdun on the Somme. The Russian army was defecting, they were picking up their toys and going home, they didn't want to play war anymore, they didn't like the Czar. And the Italian army had collapsed. "Not a shot had been fired on German soil. Not one enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany. And yet, Germany was offering England peace terms. They offered England a negotiated peace on what the lawyers call a status quo ante basis. That means: "Let's call the war off, and let everything be as it was before the war started." England, in the summer of 1916 was consideringthat -- seriously. They had no choice. It was either accepting this negotiated peace that Germany was magnanimously offering them, or going on with the war and being totally defeated. "While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and -- I am going to be brief because it's a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make -- they said: "Look here. You can yet win this war. You don't have to give up. You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany. You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally." The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; wewere powerful. They told England: "We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war." In other words, they made this deal: "We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey." Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that "Great Britain, that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war. However, they did make that promise, in October of 1916. And shortly after that -- I don't know how many here remember it - - the United States, which was almost totally pro-German, entered the war as Britain's ally. "I say that the United States was almost totally pro-German because the newspapers here were controlled by Jews, the bankers were Jews, all the media of mass communications in this country were controlled by Jews; and they, the Jews, were pro-German. They were pro-German because many of them had come from Germany, and also they wanted to see Germany lick the Czar. The Jews didn't like the Czar, and they didn't want Russia to win this war. These German-Jew bankers, like Kuhn Loeb and the other big banking firms in the United States refused to finance France or England to the extent of one dollar. They stood aside and they said: "As long as France and England are tied up with Russia, not one cent!" But they poured money into Germany, they fought beside Germany against Russia, trying to lick the Czarist regime. "Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, went to England and they made this deal. At that time, everything changed, like a traffic light that changes from red to green. Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good. They were villains. They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses. They were cutting off babies' hands. They were no good. Shortly after that, Mr Wilson declared war on Germany. "The Zionists in London had sent cables to the United States, to Justice Brandeis, saying "Go to work on President Wilson. We're getting from England what we want. Now you go to work on President Wilson and get the United States into the war." That's how the United States got into the war. We had no more interest in it; we had no more right to be in it than we have to be on themoon tonight instead of in this room. There was absolutely no reason for World War I to be our war. We were railroaded into -- if I can be vulgar, we were suckered into -- that war merely so that the Zionists of the world could obtain Palestine. That is something that the people of the United States have never been told. They never knew why we went into World War I. "After we got into the war, the Zionists went to Great Britain and they said: "Well, we performed our part of the agreement. Let's have something in writing that shows that you are going to keep your bargain and give us Palestine after you win the war." They didn't know whether the war would last another year or another ten years. So they started to work out a receipt. The receipt took the form of a letter, which was worded in very cryptic language so that the world at large wouldn't know what it was all about. And that was called the Balfour Declaration. "The Balfour Declaration was merely Great Britain's promise to pay the Zionists what they had agreed upon as a consideration for getting the United States into the war. So this great Balfour Declaration, that you hear so much about, is just as phony as a three dollar bill. I don't think I could make it more emphatic than that. "That is where all the trouble started. The United States got in the war. The United States crushed Germany. You know what happened. When the war ended, and the Germans went to Paris for the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 there were 117 Jews there, as a delegation representing the Jews, headed by Bernard Baruch. I was there: I ought to know. Now what happened? The Jews at that peace conference, when they were cutting up Germany and parceling out Europe to all these nations who claimed a right to a certain part of European territory, said, "How about Palestine for us?" And they produced, for the first time to the knowledge of the Germans, this Balfour Declaration. So the Germans, for the first time realized, "Oh, so that was the game! That's why the United States came into the war." The Germans for the first time realized that they were defeated, they suffered the terrific reparations that were slapped onto them, because the Zionists wanted Palestine and were determined to get it at any cost. "That brings us to another very interesting point. When the Germans realized this, they naturally resented it. Up to that time, the Jews had never been better off in any country in the world than they had been in Germany. You had Mr. Rathenau there, who was maybe 100 times as important in industry and finance as is Bernard Baruch in this country. You had Mr. Balin, who owned the two big steamship lines, the North German Lloyd's and the Hamburg-American Lines. You had Mr. Bleichroder, who was the banker for the Hohenzollern family. You had the Warburgs in Hamburg, who were the big merchant bankers -- the biggest in the world. The Jews were doing very well in Germany. No question about that. The Germans felt: "Well, that was quite a sellout." "It was a sellout that might be compared to this hypothetical situation: Suppose the United States was at war with the Soviet Union. And we were winning. And we told the Soviet Union: "Well, let's quit. We offer you peace terms. Let's forget the whole thing." And all of a sudden Red China came into the war as an ally of the Soviet Union. And throwing them into the war brought about our defeat. A crushing defeat, with reparations the likes of which man's imagination cannot encompass. "Imagine, then, after that defeat, if we found out that it was the Chinese in this country, our Chinese citizens, who all the time we had thought were loyal citizens working with us, were selling us out to the Soviet Union and that it was through them that Red China was brought into the war against us. How would we feel, then, in the United States against Chinese? I don't think that one of themwould dare show his face on any street. There wouldn't be enough convenient lampposts to take care of them. Imagine how we would feel. "Well, that's how the Germans felt towards these Jews. They'd been so nice to them: from 1905 on, when the first Communist revolution in Russia failed, and the Jews had to scramble out of Russia, they all went to Germany. And Germany gave them refuge. And they were treated very nicely. And here they had sold Germany down the river for no reason at all other than the fact that they wanted Palestine as a so-called "Jewish commonwealth." ------end snippet. > Jed objected to the above statements, and so I have decided to elaborat= e. > Let me begin by noting that there are three ways in which children respond > to the statist propaganda that is routinely served up to them in government > schools: > > (1) A few students focus their minds on the propaganda, analyze it, > formulate criticisms, research alternate viewpoints, and ultimately reject > the propaganda, despite the fact that such a course of action will brin= g > them into direct conflict with their teachers. > > (2) The immense majority essentially ignore the propaganda: they make > little or no effort to study it or remember it, and essentially fly by the > seats of their pants when tests are given. Result: their grades suffer,= but > they remain somewhat open to alternative views, if they should ever > encounter them. Unfortunately, the mental inertia which they exhibited = in > school is habit forming, and in their later life will prevent most of them > from becoming consistent proponents of any view. They will thus remain,= as > adults, what they were as children: confused, undecided, and full of > conflicting impulses and ideas. > > (3) A few students focus their minds on the propaganda and analyze it, but > deliberately avoid criticizing it or researching alternate viewpoints, > because their goal is to retain the material and believe it, in order t= o > curry favor with their teachers and, sometimes, with their parents. > > It is my view that persons who follow procedure (1) are moral, those wh= o > follow (2) are amoral, and those who follow (3) are immoral. Moreover, > since those who follow (3) are choosing evil, they deserve to be condemned > in no uncertain terms. Mitchell for criminy sakes you prefaced ALL OF THE ABOVE with the statement that we were talking about CHILDREN! Children don't have much choice but to swallow whatever propaganda their parents and teachers believe in. So you want to condemn these kids for not thinking independently? How old were you when you finally started waking up to some of this stuff? In any event what you are advocating above is nothing less than THOUGHT CONTROL. You do not have the right to control what other people think by condemning them in "no uncertain terms". What are these certain terms of yours, anyway? Just as the German officials who sought to justify > evil *actions* by claiming to have been "obeying orders" were rightly > condemned in the aftermath of the Nuremberg trials, so too those who > attempt to justify evil beliefs in the same way also deserve to be > condemned. condemned to what? Hanging? The desire to fit into a group or to curry favor with an > authority figure does *not* relieve us of the obligation to judge their= > assertions, any more than it justifies us in obeying their orders. Nor does > being a child justify such behavior. Wrong. Evil is what it is, irrespective of > the age, No, evil is only evil when perptrated VOLUNTARILY AND KNOWINGLY. One of the greatest teachers of all time said: " ....forgive them for they know not what they do." On the other count, is is also noted that children do not participate in their educational process voluntarily. > sex, race, creed, or national origin of the perpetrator. If > there is an effective way to resist, we are obligated to find it > and do it, and when we default on that responsibility, we are > morally compromised. Damn right on there, Mitchell. Unfortunately for you, you have just shown yourself to be a hypocrite. As the resolution of our previous to last debate proved, you are unwilling to muster up enough moral resoponsibility or honor to tell a cop to his face that you are not doing anything wrong when he gives you a ticket for violation of some revenue generating traffic statute. You SAY you do not have time to face this idiot in court, because you have better things to do with your life. However, by all standards of moral culpability, the cop is right, you WERE GUILTY AS CHARGED when you just went ahead and paid your fine. You are just like that child you mention who agrees with what teacher says, no matter how stupid it seems. Pure hypocrisy. (snip) Jim Ostrowski  =1A=1A  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 20:39:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA16373; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:39:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:39:00 -0800 Message-ID: <38741B46.7263 ca-ois.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:34:14 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: sorry... References: <3.0.1.32.20000105125421.01de928c mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PjYNk.0.h_3.an1Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry, I posted my response to Mitchell's re The Nature of Evil to Vortex-l by accident. many regrets... Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 20:45:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA18735; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:44:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:44:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:48:53 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Question of Mass of Magnetic field, A Protocol to measure same In-Reply-To: <9upn6s4eudv3t25ss899cefncl4ama4g4n 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZmVV_3.0.fa4.Js1Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Do we have a consensus about the BBGB, or BLOW-BY-GRINDING-BLOW, of HOW to measure the mass of a magnetic field? I will make one suggestion: 1] A 10 lb spool of about # 20 AWG magnet wire is used. The inside of the spool is found by carving, melting or otherwise brutalizing the bobbin on which the wire is wound. 2] Two insulated stranded wire connections, properly insulated, are made and are about 30 cm long, each. 3] The pieces of a ferromagnetic core is made with iron wire chopped into suitable length. 4] A dielectric sleeve or hollow cylinder is fashioned to fit inside the spool of wire and the section of ferromagnetic iron wire are used to fill the tube and are added until the whole is snug. Now we get to shielding. 5] The first thing is to make a little frame of any kind of wood or plastic which you have and find easy to work with. NOTE: At this point you also have to choice of making the shielding container able to be opened, if you want so as to allow testing of bifilar or other coils which you want to see divorced from local fields.... OR You might want to wind this spool to be bifilar in the first place so as to be able to try several different series-parallel and-or aiding-bucking coils ..... and other neat-o ideas. 6] Back to the frame: This is made so as to allow you to put the first layer of shielding, air, and have it be, say, 4 inches deep... In other words, the frame is hollow and its outside is about 4 inches, equally, at minimum, from the outer most part of you coil. 7] Before putting the #2 layer of shielding the stranded wire is connected to some heavy sets of Litz wire. The gauge of the Litz wire is to be at least 3 or 4 wire sizes BIGGER than the coil gauge. The Litz wire leads are to be at least 5 foot each. 8] Shielding # 2 is sheet iron or steel, about 22 to 18 gauge. 9] Shielding # 3 is 2 inches air 10] Shielding # 4 is non ferromagnetic conductor, can be copper or aluminum, about 22 to 18 gauge.... can be laminated foil. 11] Shielding # 5 is 2 inches air. 12] Layers of air, steel ferromagnetic material and more air and non ferro magnetic are repeated so that you have 8 layers each of air, ferro magnetic and non ferro magnetic material. This is one layer more than the old Thordarson shielded transformers. 13] Control 14] The control is a bulk non inductive resistor a little heavier than needed to handle the predicted, measured load of the electromagnet. 15] The control resistor is placed adjacent to the coil and a separate set of leads, stranded wire then Litz wire, duplicate the magnet's leads. Anyone have a big argument so far? I will wait for the yea sayers and nay sayers,,,, then ON WITH THE TEST !!! J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 21:15:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA31244; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:14:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:14:21 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF57C1.95E0B720.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst Reply-To: "bhorst ieee.org" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: EV1 instead of hybrid (was Toyota hybrid car info) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:12:33 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 37 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"l4XPw1.0.2e7.jI2Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think a better choice than either of the hybrids is the new GM EV1 Gen II: http://www.gmev.com I picked mine up last week. It looks great, does 0-60 in 8.2 sec, and I have been getting 100-120 miles per charge with the NiMH batteries. I think it is the first practical electric car that does not make you feel like you are always running on empty. It is great for commuting, and after July 1 I will be able to drive alone in the carpool lanes. Only zero emissions vehicles will be given the carpool lane privilege, so hybrids will be excluded. -- Bob -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [SMTP:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 8:18 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Toyota hybrid car info. More detailed info about the hybrid gasoline electric Toyota automobile is available here: http://www.toyota.com/cgi-bin/top_frame.cgi?low_frame=%2fafv%2fprius%2fi ntro_d emo.html&data_frame= The Toyota and Honda hybrid vehicle rollouts were earlier than some industry experts were expecting. GM has responded with a demonstration of a vehicle which I consider too complex and too advanced, which will not be available for awhile, if ever. See: http://www.auto.com/2000autoshow/iwira1_20000101.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 21:42:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07495; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:35:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:35:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106003738.01606100 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 00:37:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TOoLH2.0.xq1.mc2Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Vince. But I see that these are links to experiments and validations of his hydrino energy experiments and hence from there over to his Grand Unification Theory. I was left with the impression from Tom that Randell Mills was soon into experimenting with gravity modification. Grand theories do not interest me unless they can cross over to experiments with gravity modification. I really am one track about this to the point where I believe that's the only purpose to a GUT :-)) If he has any planned, I surely would like to know about it. :-)) Let me quote Reinhart Engelmann, the man who wrote Mill's book review: "Let me close, as I started this review, with a quote from Jim Baggott [1]: "Science is a democratic activity. It is rare for a new theory to be adopted by the scientific community overnight. Rather scientists need a good deal of persuading before they will invest belief in a new theory ... . This process of persuasion must be backed up by hard experimental evidence, preferably from new experiments designed to test the predictions of the new theory. Only when a large cross- section of the scientific community believes in the new theory is it accepted as 'true'."" Well, I wouldn't go quite that far, but Podkletnov, Wallace, Hooper & Edwards, Brown, and many others have already lit a certain path to some small positive gravity mod experiments. I am trying to not be arrogant about this. My knowledge of math/physics is not very good, but I don't believe the experiment is second place. Mills may be partially correct about his hydrino theory in regard to his successful excess energy and anomalous light experiments. And I can certainly understand the attraction to a GUT theory that exudes beauty but I sure hope he has an experiment planned for gravity modification soon. Perhaps if I understood physics a little better, I might think differently, but I doubt it. The experiment does rule, after all :-) Best, Colin Quinney. At 08:07 PM 01/05/00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/5/00 12:47:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, >quinney inforamp.net writes: > >> Correct me about Mills-- I am totally unfamiliar with his >> work so there may be some positive experimental responses of which I am >> unaware. I'd love to know that this is true. > >> Colin Quinney > >Colin, >Go to: > > http://www.blacklightpower.com > >There is a link on the home page to experiments >and validations.(many of these) > >Regards, >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 22:00:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16109; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:59:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:59:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106010130.013ae640 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 01:01:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <00c101bf57ee$96b76ea0$2e441d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.5.32.20000105200151.00a615c0 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vUFF21.0.Yx3.3z2Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But Fred or Ron, I realize this is an analogy-- but how can we use the Z of space to our advantage? Why can't we somehow couple to it if it's got an impedance? Before I retired last year, I was a technician at a TV Network. We had to couple circuits together all the time and the impedances had to match exactly or loss of power and distortion arose. If you are going to invent an antigravity drive, don't you have to change the local characteristics of space? (and to do that probably requires a coupling of some sort :-) Gravity is a push, not a pull, (IMO) so antigravity is a misnomer. So it's anti-push, which means it must screen a pressure. And to screen a pressure, it must screen on only one side. Casimir forces are caused by imbalances of pressure. A highly charged plate, dielectric on only ONE side therefore, should display an imbalance of Casimir pressure. Colin At 06:34 PM 01/05/00 -0800, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Colin Quinney >To: >Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 5:01 PM >Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? > >Colin wrote: > > >> Ron Kita reminds us that the impedance of space is 377 ohms, Fred. >> Hmmm. Since we will be pushing against space (so-to-speak :), why not try >> to match the Z's? >> >> How many square meters for 377 Ohms? > >The Capacitance of Space (eo) 8.84E-12 farads/meter is a Length Only property. > >The Inductance of Space (uo) 4(pi)E-7 henry/meter is a Length Only property also. > >Thus (uo/eo)^1/2 = 377 ohms > >You're not "pushing against space" but, against the field generated by inertial mass. If you >antigrav off the Earth , before long you will be antigraving off the Sun. If the vacuum had >mass/energy/inertia you wouldn't see light from time zero. :-) > >Regards, Frederick >> >> Colin >> >> At 09:23 AM 01/05/00 -0800, Frederick wrote: >> >PC Board "Stripline" Transmission Line? >> > >> >Something to try, Colin. >> > >> >The characteristic impedance, Z = (spacing/width)* (L/C)^1/2 ohms >> > >> >For a 1.0 meter square PC Board C = k*8.84E-12* Area/Thickness, don't >> >know for sure if L = 4(pi)*1.0E-7. >> > >> >Velocity, v = (1/L*C)^1/2 >> > >> >Assuming that k = 2.2 and L = 4(pi)E-7 C = 1.95E-11 farads >> > >> >Z = (L/C)^1/2 = (1.257E-6/1.95E-11)^1/2 = 10.88 ohms >> > >> >and v = (1/L*C)^1/2 = (1/1.257E-6*1.95E-11)^1/2 = 8.03E6 meters/sec >> > >> >By "beefing up" the input and output edges you can apply pulses to the >> input edge >> >and load the output edge with resistors (incandescent or gas discharge >> light bulbs) that >> >are equal in resistance to the Characteristic impedance Z (10.88 ohms). >> > >> >If the board takes off into the Wild Blue Yonder when you pulse it..... :-) >> > >> >Regards, Frederick >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 22:18:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22824; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:17:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:17:21 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:17:11 -1000 Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Hoverboard From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007501bf57ca$d1e32d80$2e441d26 fjsparber> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dQ25P3.0.Ya5.nD3Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: on 1/5/00 12:17 PM, Frederick Sparber at fjsparber earthlink.net wrote: > Why get all wet surfing on water when you can strap a power-pack on your back > and surf the the tree-tops, Rick? :-) > > Regards, Frederick I used to surf the treetops, and I ended up taking one of them out with my tailbone. Couldn't poop for two weeks without crying! Now I seek a kinder gentler antigravity experiment, one in which initially at least, my mortal keister is *not* the test-mass! Thanks anyway... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 01:08:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA32033; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:06:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:06:37 -0800 Message-ID: <010101bf582d$a0c99000$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <3.0.5.32.20000105200151.00a615c0 inforamp.net> <3.0.5.32.20000106010130.013ae640@inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 02:05:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"3R2Ma2.0.Mq7.Ti5Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Quinney To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Colin wrote: > But Fred or Ron, > > I realize this is an analogy-- but how can we use the Z of space to our > advantage? Why can't we somehow couple to it if it's got an impedance? Try this on for size, Colin. Z = 377 = (uo/eo)^1/2 = Ex/Hy = volts/meter/ampere-turns/meter for an EM wave. IOW, the impedance of space reduces to volts/amperes = ohms. If you can figure out a way to push ohms around you're home free. :-) > Before I retired last year, I was a technician at a TV Network. We had to > couple circuits together all the time and the impedances had to match > exactly or loss of power and distortion arose. Exactly, and if you have any mismatch (delta Z)on a transmission line you will get reflections of a pulse put on it. Thus an open-ended xmission line will reflect the pulse all the way back to the source with time delay = 2 (1/LC)^1/2. If in the meantime the sending end is open-ended on a lossless line the pulse(energy) will reflect indefinitely. IMO this is what happens to photons that are traversing space (an infinite line) at c that hit a "discontinuity" and turn into circling or to-and-fro entities (still at c)thus particle pairs. > If you are going to invent > an antigravity drive, don't you have to change the local characteristics of > space? (and to do that probably requires a coupling of some sort :-) Use pairs of magnets, or solenoids and a battery with reversing switches, as an anology. Free in space, magnets will ALWAYS ALIGN TO ATTRACT. To Repel requires INPUT ENERGY. Antigrav Must Require Input Energy for masses to work off of one another. I know this from climbing a ladder. :-) > > Gravity is a push, not a pull, (IMO) so antigravity is a misnomer. Wrong! It's your wife pushing you up the ladder so that you can sweep the chimney as you fall down it into the pot of boiling water like the big bad wolf! Regards, Frederick > > Colin > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 02:27:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA09897; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 02:25:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 02:25:28 -0800 Message-ID: <011701bf5838$a817ad00$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:24:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"5R7Xr1.0.ZQ2.Os6Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm with you Colin, no theory is worth SQUAT if you can't come up with an experiment that will tend to support it. Even then, Nature's Laws will probably show you something that you hadn't thought of. IMO, Mills' theories leave a lot to be desired,but, his experimental results are interesting since they parallel the CF-OU-LENR experiments and results. Here's something you can try with a couple of batteries and some magnet wire. The force (attractive or repulsive) between two loops of wire of length L,carrying a current I (amperes): F = 1.0E-7 * I1*L1 * I2*L2/ spacing^2 = force in newtons where I1*L1 and I2*L2 are in ampere-meters, thus you can have large loops and small current or vice-versa mking up a Magnetic Dipole. Hang the loops from the ceiling and have at it. IOW, the "current loops" due to the circling or to-and-fro motion (Spin) of the electron or the quarks that make up a nucleus each act as a current loop, ie., a magnetic dipole that produces the magnetogravitational force where I = q*f and L is the amplitude of the Simple Harmonic motion, ie., (4.8E-11 ampere-meters). However, since the gyrations are at, or very close to c, the relativistic dilation effects reduce the force: F = 1.0E-7 * I1*L1 * I2*L2/(spacing^2*relativistic dilation factor) The relativistic dilation factor can be determined by comparing the measured gravitational forces between masses and the calculated force between quarks (~3.3E18). An anology would be if the speed of light c was 100 mph and two aircraft circling each with a beacon flashing on for one second a off for one second. With the planes going so close to c that the dilation effect was 3.3E18 each pilot would see the other's beacon come on for 3.3E18 seconds and go out for 3.3E18 seconds, about 100 billion years! However, at 0.02583 Ampere-Meters per kilogram, the Earth can exert an antigrav force of 85 pounds on a one ampere-meter current loop of proper design for force synchronization, and as you get farther from the Earth your gravitational attraction falls off as the inverse square, thus with the same energy expenditure or antigrav force, you will maintain the same acceleration. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 05:08:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30294; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:07:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:07:29 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:07:18 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au, quinney@inforamp.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Language: en X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA30274 Resent-Message-ID: <"R12uH3.0.GP7.HE9Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 04/01/00 02:23:57 Paris, Madrid, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au a écrit : > Yes, but if you look carefully at this study, you will see that the effect > really only makes a difference at low speeds (family sedan). At airplane > speeds it is negligible (unless I'm really misreading it). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > Hi Robin and Colin, Look at this below, this may interest you... -------------------- ELECTROHYDRODYNAMICALLY INDUCED AIRFLOW IN A ONE ATMOSPHERE UNIFORM GLOW DISCHARGE SURFACE PLASMA Supported in part by funding from NASA LaRC Cooperative Agreement NCC 1-223 by J. Reece Roth ( UTK Plasma Sciences Laboratory ) This paper will present the theory of three distinct mechanisms for EHD - induced flow acceleration at one atmosphere using the OAUGDP. The first of these mechanisms acts on the net charge density of the OAUGDP, and produces neutral gas flow velocities on the order of one to ten meters per second as the result of a paraelectric effect in which the plasma is accelerated in the direction of an increasing electric field gradient. This phenomenon was observed during wind tunnel tests4, in which the paraelectrically-induced gas flow was observed to have the predicted linear dependence on the applied voltage, and to be of the correct magnitude. The second mechanism is the result of the momentum transferred to the neutral gas from the mobility drift of ions and electrons in a DC electric field applied to a OAUGDP. The ion momentum transfer dominates the electron momentum transfer, and can produce neutral gas flow velocities approaching Mach 1.0 if heating and viscous effects are neglected. The third mechanism is flow induced by peristaltic EHD effects on an OAUGDP, in which a series of strip electrodes are energized by a polyphase low frequency RF power supply, in such a way that a traveling-wave electric field exists along the surface on which the electrodes are mounted. This electric field can accelerate the ions and the neutral gas to velocities of several hundred meters per second. .... snip... CONCLUSIONS 1.) We have identified and derived a zero-order (inviscid) theory for three EHD - related flow acceleration mechanisms based on the Lorentzian transfer of momentum from the ions and electrons to the neutral gas. They are: A.) Paraelectric body forces due to the net charge density in the plasma, capable of accelerating the flow to a few 10 m/s; B.) EHD plasma convection driven by DC ion mobility drift, capable of accelerating the flow to 100 m/s ; and C.) Peristaltic EHD plasma acceleration, also capable of accelerating the flow to 100m/s. 2.) Pitot tube velocity profiles of the paraelectrically induced flow over a panel covered with a OAUGDP surface plasma, measured at the NASA Langley Research Center’s 7 X 11 Low Speed Wind Tunnel, are consistent with the predictions of the paraelectric flow theory in 1A above. 3.) The EHD flow mechanism of 1B above requires high voltages on the surface of the OAUGDP panel over which the flow is being accelerated, and is thus unattractive because of potential sparking and tracking problems. 4.) The peristaltic acceleration mechanism of 1C above appears quite feasible, and is the subject of ongoing research at the UTK Plasma Sciences Laboratory. ---------------------------- I can assure you that this work really.... I am currently working on this in my lab.... 100 m/s .... is not too bad for a "low" speed airplane... Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 06:41:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04795; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 06:40:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 06:40:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106094216.01360100 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 09:42:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id GAA04766 Resent-Message-ID: <"yZCBU2.0.qA1.KbATu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Jean-Louis, I agree. In fact, I am fascinated by their research (and yours :). There seems concern about the low velocities even amongst some of the researchers, but 100 meters per second is still pretty hefty for a technology that's in it's early stages yet. One limitation is the high voltage arcing and I wonder if they will try to get around that by utilizing shorter duration pulses? With pulse durations of less than 2 ns, they may discover that they can significantly increase the voltage. A US Patent #3,464,,207 by Ernest C. Okress, dealt with this electroaerodynamic propulsion problem of the arcing in air (dielectric breakdown at 30 KV/cm) in 1969. His idea was to shorten the [multiple] pulse durations to ~ 2 nanoseconds. He claimed that this will significantly increase the 1 cm breakdown voltage in air, and when implemented would allow the thrust to increase by a significant magnitude. :-) Colin At 08:07 AM 01/06/00 EST, you wrote: >Dans un courrier daté du 04/01/00 02:23:57 Paris, Madrid, >rvanspaa bigpond.net.au a écrit : > >> Yes, but if you look carefully at this study, you will see that the effect >> really only makes a difference at low speeds (family sedan). At airplane >> speeds it is negligible (unless I'm really misreading it). >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> > >Hi Robin and Colin, > >Look at this below, this may interest you... > >-------------------- >ELECTROHYDRODYNAMICALLY INDUCED AIRFLOW IN A ONE ATMOSPHERE >UNIFORM GLOW DISCHARGE SURFACE PLASMA >Supported in part by funding from NASA LaRC Cooperative Agreement NCC 1-223 > >by J. Reece Roth ( UTK Plasma Sciences Laboratory ) > >This paper will present the theory of three distinct mechanisms for EHD - >induced flow acceleration at one atmosphere using the OAUGDP. The first of >these mechanisms acts on the net charge density of the OAUGDP, and produces >neutral gas flow velocities on the order of one to ten meters per second as >the result of a paraelectric effect in which the plasma is accelerated in the >direction of an increasing electric field gradient. This phenomenon was >observed during wind tunnel tests4, in which the paraelectrically-induced gas >flow was observed to have the predicted linear dependence on the applied >voltage, and to be of the correct magnitude. The second mechanism is the >result of the momentum transferred to the neutral gas from the mobility drift >of ions and electrons in a DC electric field applied to a OAUGDP. The ion >momentum transfer dominates the electron momentum transfer, and can produce >neutral gas flow velocities approaching Mach 1.0 if heating and viscous >effects are neglected. The third mechanism is flow induced by peristaltic EHD >effects on an OAUGDP, in which a series of strip electrodes are energized by >a polyphase low frequency RF power supply, in such a way that a >traveling-wave electric field exists along the surface on which the >electrodes are mounted. This electric field can accelerate the ions and the >neutral gas to velocities of several hundred meters per second. > >.... snip... > >CONCLUSIONS > >1.) We have identified and derived a zero-order (inviscid) theory for three >EHD - related flow acceleration mechanisms based on the Lorentzian transfer >of momentum from the ions and electrons to the neutral gas. They are: > >A.) Paraelectric body forces due to the net charge density in the plasma, >capable of accelerating the flow to a few 10 m/s; > >B.) EHD plasma convection driven by DC ion mobility drift, capable of >accelerating the flow to 100 m/s ; and > >C.) Peristaltic EHD plasma acceleration, also capable of accelerating the >flow to 100m/s. > >2.) Pitot tube velocity profiles of the paraelectrically induced flow over a >panel covered with a OAUGDP surface plasma, measured at the NASA Langley >Research Center’s 7 X 11 Low Speed Wind Tunnel, are consistent with the >predictions of the paraelectric flow theory in 1A above. > >3.) The EHD flow mechanism of 1B above requires high voltages on the surface >of the OAUGDP panel over which the flow is being accelerated, and is thus >unattractive because of potential sparking and tracking problems. > >4.) The peristaltic acceleration mechanism of 1C above appears quite >feasible, and is the subject of ongoing research at the UTK Plasma Sciences >Laboratory. >---------------------------- > >I can assure you that this work really.... I am currently working on this in >my lab.... > > 100 m/s .... is not too bad for a "low" speed airplane... > >Best Regards > >Jean-Louis Naudin >Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com >Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs >eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 08:58:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13556; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:56:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:56:28 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:08:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA13533 Resent-Message-ID: <"WI2F03.0.fJ3.xaCTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >CONCLUSIONS > >1.) We have identified and derived a zero-order (inviscid) theory for three >EHD - related flow acceleration mechanisms based on the Lorentzian transfer >of momentum from the ions and electrons to the neutral gas. They are: > >A.) Paraelectric body forces due to the net charge density in the plasma, >capable of accelerating the flow to a few 10 m/s; > >B.) EHD plasma convection driven by DC ion mobility drift, capable of >accelerating the flow to 100 m/s ; and > >C.) Peristaltic EHD plasma acceleration, also capable of accelerating the >flow to 100m/s. > >2.) Pitot tube velocity profiles of the paraelectrically induced flow over a >panel covered with a OAUGDP surface plasma, measured at the NASA Langley >Research Center’Äôs 7 X 11 Low Speed Wind Tunnel, are consistent with the >predictions of the paraelectric flow theory in 1A above. > >3.) The EHD flow mechanism of 1B above requires high voltages on the surface >of the OAUGDP panel over which the flow is being accelerated, and is thus >unattractive because of potential sparking and tracking problems. > >4.) The peristaltic acceleration mechanism of 1C above appears quite >feasible, and is the subject of ongoing research at the UTK Plasma Sciences >Laboratory. >---------------------------- > >I can assure you that this work really.... I am currently working on this in >my lab.... > > 100 m/s .... is not too bad for a "low" speed airplane... ***{The above is just theory. Has anyone tested these types of devices to determine whether they produce thrust in a vacuum? If they do, then (a) you have a space drive, and (b) your theory is wrong. --MJ}*** > >Best Regards > >Jean-Louis Naudin >Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com >Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs >eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 09:02:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15798; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:00:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:00:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00c101bf57ee$96b76ea0$2e441d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.5.32.20000105200151.00a615c0 inforamp.net> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:41:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"dl60c3.0.js3.6fCTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Colin Quinney >To: >Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 5:01 PM >Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? > >Colin wrote: > > >> Ron Kita reminds us that the impedance of space is 377 ohms, Fred. >> Hmmm. Since we will be pushing against space (so-to-speak :), why not try >> to match the Z's? >> >> How many square meters for 377 Ohms? > >The Capacitance of Space (eo) 8.84E-12 farads/meter is a Length Only property. > >The Inductance of Space (uo) 4(pi)E-7 henry/meter is a Length Only >property also. > >Thus (uo/eo)^1/2 = 377 ohms > >You're not "pushing against space" but, against the field generated by >inertial mass. If you >antigrav off the Earth , before long you will be antigraving off the Sun. >If the vacuum had >mass/energy/inertia you wouldn't see light from time zero. :-) ***{Your reasoning, presumably, is that photons would eventually slow down and stop moving, if they were moving through a resistive medium. By the same premise, subatomic particles would long since have ceased spinning, if they were spinning in a resistive medium. However, this reasoning is wrong: the "vacuum"--i.e., the aether--does, indeed, have mass, energy, and inertia; yet, despite that, photons just go on and on and on, and objects in the microcosm just keep spinning and spinning and spinning. This can be so because the speed of light is the terminal velocity of a photon in the aether; and the angular velocities of spinning objects in the microcosm are also terminal velocities. The reason: the push theory of gravity is the correct theory of gravity. That means space is filled with microparticles which LeSage called "ultramundane corpuscles", speeding about at many millions of times the speed of light. Since some of them are blocked by massive bodies, one result is a net force, gravity, which tends to push nearby masses toward one another, and another result is a force which, under specific circumstances, can accelerate a body that is *not* near another body. What circumstances? Simple: (a) the body must be capable of excluding E2 particles from its interior as it moves, much as a moving boat excludes water from its interior; and (b) it must have a velocity with respect to the aether which is in excess of a critical velocity. If both of these conditions are met, then the impact of ultramundane corpuscles will provide a net force on the object which will tend to accelerate it in the direction in which it is already moving. That acceleration will continue until the resistance of the medium itself produces a drag force that is equal to the accelerative force, resulting in a terminal velocity condition. In the case of photons, that terminal velocity is what we call the speed of light. Result: a photon just goes on and on and on, seemingly without end, because it is moving under the influence of an external force. And when conditions (a) and (b), above, are met by the parts of a spinning object, then it will rotate on and on and on and on, seemingly forever, because it is rotating at terminal velocity under the influence of an external force. If we ask how an isolated body can be accelerated by particles that are coming at it from all directions, the answer is that this can happen if a larger percentage of the particles coming from one direction strike the object than strike it from the opposite direction. In that case, there will be a net force toward the side where there are fewer hits. How can that happen? Simple: given that the object excludes E2 particles, it follows that when it moves there will be diverging streamlines of E2 on its front side, and converging streamlines on its back side. Since ultramundane corpuscles are diverted from their paths by E2 flows, it follows that those approaching the moving object from the back will be diverted toward it, and those approaching it from the front will be diverted away. Thus more will strike it from the back than from the front, producing a net force tending to accelerate it in the direction in which it is already moving. Result: once a photon is set into motion in some direction at more than the critical velocity, it rapidly accelerates up to the speed of light. The important question here, of course, is this: what is the critical velocity? Is it less than the speed of light, or equal to the speed of light? If it is less, in all or in some circumstances, then under those circumstances it will be possible to extract gravitational energy from space. If, for example, one need only accelerate a photon to c/2 in order for the net acceleration to kick in, then it will have more energy, when it reaches lightspeed, than we gave it, and, when it is absorbed by a target, it will impart more energy to that target than we gave it. Similarly, if there are spinning objects which only need to be given some fraction of their terminal velocities of rotation, in order to begin the accelerative process toward those terminal velocities, then if we can somehow stop their rotation, they will give back to us more energy than we invested in them. When the currently accepted physical paradigm is expressed in the context of my theory of physics--which, incidentally, I call *the microparticle theory*--we see that it requires that the critical velocity, in all cases, be equal to the terminal velocity, and, as a consequence, requires that the vacuum have no mass, energy, or inertia. My theory, however, does not require that. Thus my theory leaves me open to the possibility of "over unity" devices, but does not require them. Whether or not they exist is a matter that must be settled by experiment, rather than merely by the beating of gums in forums such as this. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Regards, Frederick [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 09:18:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19974; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:12:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:12:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3874CD8F.59B57661 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:14:55 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnetic Communications Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3NeW01.0.0u4.gpCTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So, Sparber, what do you think this guy is doing? http://www.dmagazine.com/magazine/bdfeature.html Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 09:20:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26652; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:11:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:11:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <018b01bf5871$4f5236c0$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000105200151.00a615c0 inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:10:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"dcHlm1.0.LW6.soCTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Jones To: Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? M Jones wrote: Snip usual Jones BULLSHIT! FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 09:55:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02050; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:40 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: rwormus lock-load.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Terry Blanton Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 10:50:43 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3874CD8F.59B57661 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"h690b.0.tV.WRDTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Media Fusion URL: http://www.mediafusionllc.net/northamerica/main/home.html If they can it the fiber-optic Co's will have some competition. Ron On 06-Jan-00, Terry Blanton wrote: TB> So, Sparber, what do you think this guy is doing? TB> TB> http://www.dmagazine.com/magazine/bdfeature.html TB> TB> Terry TB> -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 10:44:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18134; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:40:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:40:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3874E257.ACC15F31 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:43:35 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MKXL.0.GR4.q6ETu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "R. Wormus" wrote: > > Terry, > Media Fusion URL: > > http://www.mediafusionllc.net/northamerica/main/home.html > > If they can it the fiber-optic Co's will have some competition. Well, I always wondered what crazy came up with the .dll concept for Windoze. Stewart sorta made that work, eh? :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 10:51:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22100; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:50:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:50:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106135219.01067eb0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:52:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications In-Reply-To: <3874CD8F.59B57661 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Nksdq3.0.AP5.rFETu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Do we all get to vote? I vote that he's sending standard RF over the wires. Probably a form of ADSL similar to the RF on the Bell lines. That magnetic field carrier stuff is just BS :-)) IMO. Colin At 12:14 PM 01/06/00 -0500, you wrote: >So, Sparber, what do you think this guy is doing? > >http://www.dmagazine.com/magazine/bdfeature.html > >Terry > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 11:02:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24991; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:00:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:00:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3874E6DF.B81D25B3 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 14:02:55 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications References: <3.0.5.32.20000106135219.01067eb0 inforamp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ocCmG1.0.P66.vOETu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Colin Quinney wrote: > > Do we all get to vote? > > I vote that he's sending standard RF over the wires. > Probably a form of ADSL similar to the RF on the Bell lines. > That magnetic field carrier stuff is just BS :-)) IMO. I agree that it sounds like BS; but, if Stewart can transmit 19.2 Mbps over a considerable distance without regeneration, it will damned well get this engineer's attention. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 11:37:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09304; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:35:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:35:14 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3872597A.2E452E76 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:35:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"W0yVT2.0.EH2.nvETu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Over the years, Dick Blue, Rich Murray and others >have argued that the phenomenon called cold fusion >is unreal. For many years, these arguments were >rational and reasonable. Well said Ed, I can't think of any other reason for the anomolous isotopes other than cold fusion. This posting reminds me of a question that I've been meaning to ask you all. Has anyone done anyone done any experiements with hydrinos suspended in water to see if they enhanse the production of new isotopes? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 11:55:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18835; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:53:27 -0800 Message-Id: <200001061953.OAA14527 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:49:03 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4GuzC1.0.Cc4.tAFTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > M Jones wrote: > > Snip usual Jones BULLSHIT! > > FJS Quite uncalled for. Mr. Jones has the right to express his opinion, as you have. I don't agree with everything he wrote...but I also don't agree with all of your 'light lepton' theorizing. I am not trying to start a flamewar, just pointing out that Mr. Jones has as much right as you to theorize. --K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 12:06:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16343; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:00:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:00:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.108.150 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3874CD8F.59B57661 bellsouth.net> References: <3874CD8F.59B57661 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:59:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"1xtPC.0.C_3.IHFTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >So, Sparber, what do you think this guy is doing? > >http://www.dmagazine.com/magazine/bdfeature.html > >Terry I think that the claim that the magnetic field is being used as a transmission medium is sufficient reason to dismiss all of the claims of this Luke Stewart guy. The equations of electromagnetism are linear up to a fourth order effect from quantum field theory. The non-linear effects are so small that they may be measured only with the most sensitive instruments. One experiment is to measure the deflection of a laser beam by a magnetic field. Any one want to try that? Take a laser beam and your most powerful magnet and see how much you can bend the light path. The transmission of electromagnetic signals in an electric power cable will be unaffected by the presence of the magnetic field to a very high degree of precision. The only possible mechanism for any interaction is through free charged particles as in the case of plasma waves. There a charged particle, like an electron, would interact with both the magnetic field and the electromagnetic wave. The transmission of plasma waves outside of electric power lines has many problems. One is the fact that there is no plasma there and therefore no plasma waves. Also there seems to be no treatment of the problem that transmission will be interrupted twice each 60 Hz cycle when there is no magnetic field. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 12:12:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27655; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:07:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:07:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3874F62F.690DCDC9 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:08:19 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7P2mu.0.1m6.iNFTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Thomas, Thanks for the support. In addition to a range of different isotopes being found, some radioactive and some stable, we now can say with complete certainty that a quantitative relationship exists between helium-4 production and excess power. This relationship is found in the electrolytic production of energy as well as during production using finely divided palladium and deuterium gas. Such a relationship has been the main reasonable request of skeptics and it has now been demonstrated. I now wait patiently for attitudes to change. We will soon see who has an open mind and who's mind is locked in stone. As far as I know, no one has suspended hydrinos in water to produce the effect. However, a number of people believe such particles are involved in the cold fusion process. The debate involves how the electron and the deuterium (or proton) collapse to produce a virtual neutron and how this virtual particle can then produce the range of observed effects. Because several obvious problems exist in this model, it has not been widely accepted. Regards, Ed Storms thomas Malloy wrote: > >Over the years, Dick Blue, Rich Murray and others > >have argued that the phenomenon called cold fusion > >is unreal. For many years, these arguments were > >rational and reasonable. > > Well said Ed, I can't think of any other reason for the anomolous isotopes > other than cold fusion. This posting reminds me of a question that I've > been meaning to ask you all. Has anyone done anyone done any experiements > with hydrinos suspended in water to see if they enhanse the production of > new isotopes? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 12:39:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20142; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:34:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:34:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3874FC69.A833A630 gorge.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:34:49 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: spin question (fwd) References: <200001060618.WAA23347 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rtQ7O2.0.Zw4.MnFTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank wrote: > The photon as a particle is tested in the photo-electric effect. Light at > a given frequency hitting a surface causes electrons to be emitted if the > frequency is raised so the photons energy (hv) is above the work-function > of the surface. At frequencies below the threshold, no electrons are > emitted, no matter how bright the light is. This explanation is what > Einstein received the Nobel prize for. > If one takes it as an article of faith, that "space" is nothing, (ie. that everything "not a particle" has no ability to act on particles) then one would find it necessary to have a particle knock loose another particle (electron). If, on the other hand, one could imagine that what we call "space" is an actual physical FLUID, which can interact with the "particle" we call an electron, and, if one could visualize the electron as a swirl or vortex in that fluid-- then is it unreasonable to see the photoelectric effect as the reaction between a wave being propagated through the FLUID and a vortex OF that FLUID? Is it not possible that when the frequency of the wave is such that it relates harmoniously with that of the electron, that the effect might be to change the state of the electron above the work function, and thus release it? > The electron spin is demonstrated by the splitting of a spectroscopic > line into a pair of lines in the presence of a magnetic field. Look up the > Zeeman effect. > > Hank > I believe that ALL real particles have intrinsic spin. What is more, I believe that "spin" is exactly that characteristic which makes a particle a particle. Is it unreasonable that the Zeeman effect can allow a description of "electron shells" not as a little electron orbiting a nucleus in such a way that it is "everywhere" in that shell; but rather as a swirl, or vortex, which surrounds the nucleus at that specific radius? Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 12:55:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17276; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:52:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:52:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38741905.6BFC ca-ois.com> References: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:49:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Nature of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"cjmiD1.0.qD4.X2GTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: >> >> "The generations of so called "Americans" who obediently absorbed the >> fascist and socialist garbage that was served up to them in government >> schools, and averted their eyes while human predators fastened the yoke= > >of >> tyranny around their necks, were worse than fools: they were, and are, >> purely evil. > >Nah. Thoughtless maybe. Unobservant perhaps. Evil is when you >participate with wrongdoing knowinglyand voluntarily. That means doing >things that one knows are wrong, but one goes ahead and does them >anyway. ***{Therefore, since Torquemada tortured heretics until they recanted in order to save their souls from spending eternity in hell, he wasn't evil, right? He would only have been evil if he had thought that what he was doing was wrong, right? And, similarly, since Heinrich Himmler only murdered millions of Jews because he considered them to be "parasites on the body of the German people", he wasn't evil either, right? This doesn't work, Jim. An evil man is a man who employs selective thinking in order to affirm beliefs that will be pleasing to his "significant others." What is selective thinking? It is thinking which focuses on arguments that support a desired belief, while avoiding arguments which undermine that belief. Torquemada's belief system was created and maintained by means of selective thinking. Result: he was evil. And he would have been evil even if he had never found himself in a position to act on his twisted beliefs. It is merely an accident of history that he became the Grand Inquisitor, and had the opportunity to oversee the torture and murder of millions of people. The alternative to selective thinking is known as *reason*. Reason is basically *survival of the fittest in the mind*. To affirm a statement by means of reason, you simply throw everything at it but the kitchen sink and, if it remains standing, you affirm it as the truth. In reason, all statements are treated equally. That means no statement gets preferential treatment, regardless of its source. It doesn't matter whether you read it in the Bible, or heard it pass the lips of your father, or your spouse, or your boss, or Albert Einstein, or one of your teachers, or whomever. In reason, the source doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter whether, if you believe the statement, your interpersonal relationships will be enhanced. It doesn't matter whether your father will be nicer to you if you quote the Bible back to him. It doesn't matter whether your boss will give you a raise if you agree with his racist statements. It doesn't matter whether your physics teacher will give you an 'A' if you agree that fields are entities without parts. To a reasoning mind, all significant statements are to be relentlessly attacked, and those that survive are to be accepted as the truth. Any significant statement accepted on any other basis is a manifestation of evil. Period. --Mitchell Jones}*** Some evil is so subtle that the effects are long term and hard >to discern, like monetary inflation. Monetary inflation is the result of >an "evil" money scam on the part of the government/banking monopoly, but >most people go along with it, thinking nothing at all about it, because >they are unable to discern the effect of that evil, inflation. > >Ever noticed how the cost of automobiles has gone into the stratospheric >regions over the last couple of decades? In 1974 I bought a brand new >Camaro Z28 for 4800 "dollars", now the equivalent newest version of the >Z28 is in the $27,000 range. In 1974 I made about 8 bucks an hour, full >time, good money for back then. If I were to work at a job similar to >what I had then, I would make about $15 an hour. Obviously, had I just >worked the same job all those years, I would have to work almost 3* as >long just to pay off the same kind of new car. > >> That judgment applies to them for precisely the same reason >> that it applies to the "good Germans" who soaked up antisemitic filth in >> the state schools of the Third Reich, and averted their eyes while Jewish >> shops were firebombed, while Jewish citizens were beaten and spat upon in >> the streets, and, finally, while the death trains rolled. People who are >> so obsessed with fitting in that they will close their minds to horror >>are pure >> subhuman filth, whatever their country of national origin, or race or >> creed. Evil is, in the final analysis, an equal opportunity employer." > >Hitler had in effect declared war on the Jews, for reasons that he >thought were valid ***{And so, according to you, he was not evil, despite the fact that if he had ever made a serious effort to seek out contradictions to his belief system, he would have found them in massive numbers! That, by your way of thinking, doesn't matter one whit. All we have to do is cobble together some nonsensical belief system out of thin air, making no effort whatsoever to ferret out evidence or logic that would refute it, and we can then go out and rape, kill, torture, steal, impose our lifestyle on others, or do any other thing we damn well please, and we need have no worries about moral culpability! We would be pure as the driven snow, as we ran roughshod over our fellow men, so long as we were acting on some set of "beliefs," however ineptly they were acquired! Well, I don't buy it. Every lowlife scumbag, from a pickpocket to a mass murderer, has some rationale floating around inside his diseased brain, cobbled together by means of selective thinking, by which he "justifies" his misbehavior, but that fact obviously does *not* exempt him from moral condemnation. Indeed, that fact is the *basis* for condemning him, because it is the selective thinking itself--the lustful desire to curry favor with "significant others" by acquiring socially expedient beliefs, that is the cause of all the evils which men visit upon their fellow men. It precisely *because* most human beings are wedded to the notion of gathering favors by assuming protective coloration--that is, acquiring beliefs that will enable them to fit in with those who can help them--that we live in a world dominated by man's inhumanity to man. Do you think that *reasoned beliefs* are why the Serbs want to kill the Moslems, or the Chechens want to kill the Russians, or the FBI murdered 87 people at Waco, or Hitler slaughtered the Jews, or Torquemada slaughtered the heretics, or Stalin slaughtered the Kulaks? If you do, you are wrong. In each and every case, these episodes are perpetrated by brain-dead scum, acting on beliefs acquired through selective thinking, for the purpose of fitting in with their "significant others." With a little research and thought, in each and every case, they could have demolished the beliefs which were motivating them to hate and to kill, but they didn't do it. THAT'S WHY SUCH PEOPLE ARE EVIL. --MJ}*** [arguments denying the moral culpability of Adolf Hitler snipped] > >> Jed objected to the above statements, and so I have decided to elaborat= >e. >> Let me begin by noting that there are three ways in which children >respond >> to the statist propaganda that is routinely served up to them in >government >> schools: >> >> (1) A few students focus their minds on the propaganda, analyze it, >> formulate criticisms, research alternate viewpoints, and ultimately >reject >> the propaganda, despite the fact that such a course of action will brin= >g >> them into direct conflict with their teachers. >> >> (2) The immense majority essentially ignore the propaganda: they make >> little or no effort to study it or remember it, and essentially > fly by the >> seats of their pants when tests are given. Result: their grades suffer,= > >but >> they remain somewhat open to alternative views, if they should ever >> encounter them. Unfortunately, the mental inertia which they exhibited = >in >> school is habit forming, and in their later life will prevent most of >them >> from becoming consistent proponents of any view. They will thus remain,= > >as >> adults, what they were as children: confused, undecided, and full of >> conflicting impulses and ideas. >> >> (3) A few students focus their minds on the propaganda and analyze it, >but >> deliberately avoid criticizing it or researching alternate viewpoints, >> because their goal is to retain the material and believe it, in order t= >o >> curry favor with their teachers and, sometimes, with their parents. >> >> It is my view that persons who follow procedure (1) are moral, those wh= >o >> follow (2) are amoral, and those who follow (3) are immoral. Moreover, >> since those who follow (3) are choosing evil, they deserve to be >condemned >> in no uncertain terms. > >Mitchell for criminy sakes you prefaced ALL OF THE ABOVE with the >statement that we were talking about CHILDREN! Children don't have much >choice but to swallow whatever propaganda their parents and teachers >believe in. So you want to condemn these kids for not thinking >independently? How old were you when you finally started waking up to >some of this stuff? ***{All children are born to reason, Jim. They take to it like ducks to water. It is adults who, by various pressures, divert them into selective thinking. For example I, like many other children, found the notion of "God", like the notion of "Santa Claus", to be implausible from the beginning. Result: I, like many other very young children, responded by asking questions and stating arguments. I can distinctly remember standing in the kitchen of my grandfather's house when I was about three, with the kitchen table covered by a red and white "oilcloth" table cloth that was *above* my head, as I asked my grandfather the question: "If God created everything, then where did he come from?" My grandfather replied: "He always existed." I will never forget the disappointment I felt in response to that answer, because, obviously, if God could "always exist," then there was no reason to believe he existed at all. (The only reason to postulate the existence of God is to provide an explanation for the existence of the universe. But if it is possible for a thing to have always existed, then the universe could have always existed, and thus there would be no reason to postulate God to explain its existence.) That conversation was pretty much my last hope of finding a basis for believing in God, and so from that day forward, I considered myself to be an atheist (though, at that time, I didn't even know there was a word which described my lack of belief). Does that mean I openly espoused that view to all who would listen? No. I had felt afraid when I asked my grandfather the question that I did, because I had observed that it was not a subject where disagreement was welcomed, and I was very careful in my discussions of the subject until I began to approach adulthood. Nevertheless, I never deviated from the pattern of mental behavior which I exhibited vis-a-vis that issue: I treated all statements equally, regardless of their source--which means: if they concerned matters of significance, I began a systematic search for contradictions and, if one or more unresolvable contradictions were found, I rejected the statement. Nobody's assertions ever had any credibility with me, because I never believed anything merely to gain preferential treatment from an individual or a group. Nobody decides the contents of my beliefs but me, and I believe nothing save that which survives a process of relentless criticism. Thus I know for a fact that even a child can choose to reason, because I, as a child, chose to do so. And I know for a fact that, as a child, I had the opportunity a hundred times a day, every day of my life, to "improve my interpersonal relationships" by employing selective thinking to believe what others wanted me to believe, and that, as a child, I rejected that choice, a hundred times a day. So don't tell me that children do not have a choice, Jim. I know better. A child, like an adult, can choose evil, or can reject it, each and every day of his life. There is no special day when we cross a magic threshold and suddenly become morally culpable, because evil is something very specific. Evil is the employment of selective thinking in order to believe what we want to believe. When we do that, we choose evil; and when we refuse to do it, we choose the good. HOW OLD WE ARE HAS NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH IT. --MJ}*** > >In any event what you are advocating above is nothing less than THOUGHT >CONTROL. You do not have the right to control what other people think by >condemning them in "no uncertain terms". What are these certain terms of >yours, anyway? ***{To repeat: when you employ selective thinking to believe what you want to believe, you choose evil, because that's what evil is, and is all that it is. --MJ}*** > > > Just as the German officials who sought to justify >> evil *actions* by claiming to have been "obeying orders" were rightly >> condemned in the aftermath of the Nuremberg trials, so too those who >> attempt to justify evil beliefs in the same way also deserve to be >> condemned. > >condemned to what? Hanging? ***{On an interpersonal level, evidence that a person employs selective thinking to maintain socially expedient beliefs is grounds for a gradually escalating series of actions: first, you argue with the beliefs; then you note that the beliefs do not change in spite of the demolition of the arguments used to support them; then you discuss what that implies--to wit: what selective thinking is, and why it is the basis of all of man's inhumanity to man; then, if the behavior continues, you gradually break off relations with the person. In the limited context of relations that exists in a discussion group such as this, on the other hand, I think it is inappropriate to bring up such suspicions. Thus if I, for example, suspected you of selective thinking, I would never introduce such comments into a discussion, because it would be pejorative, irrelevant, and destabilizing. If, however, you introduced pejoratives into the discussion, the door would be open for me to make such comments, though I probably would still not do it, since I find it much more effective to discuss such concepts in the abstract, as we are doing now, rather than in the context of personal accusations. As for how one ought to deal with someone who does not merely acquire beliefs by means of selective thinking, but acts on those beliefs in ways that violate the rights of others, it depends on the specifics of what he has done, on whether we can prove it, etc. These are matters for courts and judges to decide. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > The desire to fit into a group or to curry favor with an >> authority figure does *not* relieve us of the obligation to judge >> their assertions, any more than it justifies us in obeying their orders. >> Nor does being a child justify such behavior. > > Wrong. ***{Nope. See above. --MJ}*** > > > Evil is what it is, irrespective of >> the age, > > No, evil is only evil when perptrated VOLUNTARILY AND KNOWINGLY. > One of the greatest teachers of all time said: > > " ....forgive them for they know not what they do." ***{Belief is not an excuse unless it is the result of a conscientiously conducted reasoning process. False beliefs that result from selective thinking are not honest mistakes, and are not exempt from moral condemnation. Himmler was acting on his beliefs, as was Torquemada, as is every other two-bit criminal who violates the rights of his fellow men. The concept you are using simply does not work. --MJ}*** > > On the other count, is is also noted that children do not > participate in their educational process voluntarily. ***{A child has a choice about whether to employ selective thinking in order to believe what his teachers want him to believe. To the extent that he chooses to do so, he chooses evil. --MJ}*** > > > sex, race, creed, or national origin of the perpetrator. If > > there is an effective way to resist, we are obligated to find it > > and do it, and when we default on that responsibility, we are > > morally compromised. > > Damn right on there, Mitchell. Unfortunately for you, you have > just shown yourself to be a hypocrite. ***{Bad manners. You should avoid introducing irrelevant pejoratives into the discussion. This isn't about my character or about your character, but about how "evil" ought to be defined. --MJ}*** As the resolution of our > previous to last debate proved, you are unwilling to muster up > enough moral resoponsibility or honor to tell a cop to his face > that you are not doing anything wrong when he gives you a ticket > for violation of some revenue generating traffic statute. You SAY > you do not have time to face this idiot in court, because you have > better things to do with your life. However, by all standards of > moral culpability, the cop is right, you WERE GUILTY AS CHARGED > when you just went ahead and paid your fine. > > You are just like that child you mention who agrees with what > teacher says, no matter how stupid it seems. Pure hypocrisy. ***{Nope. You missed the point, that's all. I said: "If there is an effective way to resist, we are obligated to find it and do it, and when we default on that responsibility, we are morally compromised." Note the presence of the word "effective" in the sentence. I don't argue with traffic cops because it isn't an effective way to resist. And I don't refuse to pay my taxes, because that isn't effective, either. Nor do I engage in the sort of courtroom obstructionism that you advocate, for the same reason. --MJ}*** > >(snip) > >Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 12:58:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19987; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:56:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:56:26 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <85.855f02ed.25a65b70 aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:56:16 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA19943 Resent-Message-ID: <"1Jz8U1.0.9u4.w5GTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Run 010600 completed today. H2 and K fill. H2 fill pressure 20 ±0.1 torr. Tc was 249.1 C ±0.1 C Tv was 649 VDC ±1% Ta was 0.0303 amp ±1% Tw (Tv X Ta) was 19.66 Tc/w was 12.67 degrees per watt. Compare the above readings to the 3 calibration runs conducted 7-24 thru 8-8-99 below: Fill---Tc-----Tv-----Ta-----Tw-----Tc/w 20.7--221.9--0759--0.0257--19.50--11.37 20.0--193.5--0766--0.0219--16.77--11.53 20.0--203.5--0750--0.0209--15.67--12.98 Not much difference with or without K it seems, but a lot of ground to cover yet. If there is an effect I'm looking for a big difference. It is important to bring the tube slowly up to power level. I start at as low a power input as possible to sustain a stable discharge and gradually increase to the wattage input target, which is the wattage that the calibration was run at. Found it not possible just to shoot for voltage or current because the tube characteristics are very different with K metal in the tube. So it takes a lot of calculator juggling to get to a wattage set point. Anyone out there know a supplier of a DC wattmeter that will use a DC volt range of 0 to 50 volts and a current range of 0 to 150 milliamps? Direct reading analog preferred. My Simpson engineering catalog only lists AC wattmeters. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:08:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24853; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:05:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:05:51 -0800 Message-ID: <38750454.D67DAE98 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:08:36 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications References: <3874CD8F.59B57661 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y09ew2.0.B46.lEGTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: > > >So, Sparber, what do you think this guy is doing? > > > >http://www.dmagazine.com/magazine/bdfeature.html > > > >Terry > > I think that the claim that the magnetic field is being used as a > transmission medium is sufficient reason to dismiss all of the claims > of this Luke Stewart guy. The equations of electromagnetism are > linear up to a fourth order effect from quantum field theory. The > non-linear effects are so small that they may be measured only with > the most sensitive instruments. One experiment is to measure the > deflection of a laser beam by a magnetic field. Any one want to try > that? Take a laser beam and your most powerful magnet and see how > much you can bend the light path. > The transmission of electromagnetic signals in an electric power > cable will be unaffected by the presence of the magnetic field to a > very high degree of precision. The only possible mechanism for any > interaction is through free charged particles as in the case of > plasma waves. There a charged particle, like an electron, would > interact with both the magnetic field and the electromagnetic wave. > The transmission of plasma waves outside of electric power lines has > many problems. One is the fact that there is no plasma there and > therefore no plasma waves. Also there seems to be no treatment of > the problem that transmission will be interrupted twice each 60 Hz > cycle when there is no magnetic field. Thanks for your comments, Larry. Your last point is especially well taken. A potential investor has asked me to look into this along with a similar claim by a wireless inventor who thinks he is going to put cell phones out of business. The wireless guy is from Alabama, by the way. :-) Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:12:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23509; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:10:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:10:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106161149.013a9940 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:11:49 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications In-Reply-To: <3874E6DF.B81D25B3 bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20000106135219.01067eb0 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WbKCD3.0.6l5.gIGTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It also certainly now has my attention (but as a potential future investor) but it still begs the question of how he can modulate a 60 HZ signal with a 30 to 300 GHZ signal. If that's what he's doing, I guess a Nobel prize is in order. See his patent US 5982276. If he has accomplished this kind of lossless bandwidth, I doubt that it's arising from his description of the process. Interesting. My bs detector is not going off about the accomplishment itself, only the explanations proffered. Colin At 02:02 PM 01/06/00 -0500, you wrote: >Colin Quinney wrote: >> >> Do we all get to vote? >> >> I vote that he's sending standard RF over the wires. >> Probably a form of ADSL similar to the RF on the Bell lines. >> That magnetic field carrier stuff is just BS :-)) IMO. > >I agree that it sounds like BS; but, if Stewart can transmit 19.2 >Mbps over a considerable distance without regeneration, it will >damned well get this engineer's attention. > >Terry > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:15:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24129; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:14:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:14:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106161625.00e0b2c0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:16:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA24111 Resent-Message-ID: <"10z2i3.0.xu5.mMGTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So far as I know, this is considered for only atmospheric propulsion. I did not realize that anyone was claiming that it will work in space, but it may eventually assist somewhat in the removal of friction-generated heat during the re-entry of space vehicles. The propulsion technique works. It's a fairly new technology and it seems to show some promise. See JN Naudin's web site. Imagine a saucer shaped vehicle 30 feet in diameter, quietly hovering over your home. Even to the initiated, this will be an impressive sight. :-) Colin Quinney At 09:08 AM 01/06/00 -0600, you wrote: >[snip] > >>CONCLUSIONS >> >>1.) We have identified and derived a zero-order (inviscid) theory for three >>EHD - related flow acceleration mechanisms based on the Lorentzian transfer >>of momentum from the ions and electrons to the neutral gas. They are: >> >>A.) Paraelectric body forces due to the net charge density in the plasma, >>capable of accelerating the flow to a few 10 m/s; >> >>B.) EHD plasma convection driven by DC ion mobility drift, capable of >>accelerating the flow to 100 m/s ; and >> >>C.) Peristaltic EHD plasma acceleration, also capable of accelerating the >>flow to 100m/s. >> >>2.) Pitot tube velocity profiles of the paraelectrically induced flow over a >>panel covered with a OAUGDP surface plasma, measured at the NASA Langley >>Research Center’Äôs 7 X 11 Low Speed Wind Tunnel, are consistent with the >>predictions of the paraelectric flow theory in 1A above. >> >>3.) The EHD flow mechanism of 1B above requires high voltages on the surface >>of the OAUGDP panel over which the flow is being accelerated, and is thus >>unattractive because of potential sparking and tracking problems. >> >>4.) The peristaltic acceleration mechanism of 1C above appears quite >>feasible, and is the subject of ongoing research at the UTK Plasma Sciences >>Laboratory. >>---------------------------- >> >>I can assure you that this work really.... I am currently working on this in >>my lab.... >> >> 100 m/s .... is not too bad for a "low" speed airplane... > >***{The above is just theory. Has anyone tested these types of devices to >determine whether they produce thrust in a vacuum? If they do, then (a) you >have a space drive, and (b) your theory is wrong. --MJ}*** > >> >>Best Regards >> >>Jean-Louis Naudin >>Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com >>Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs >>eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:17:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29234; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:15:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:15:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000106161510.0079a100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:15:10 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BZGON2.0.i87.bNGTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I received a message from the middle of an ongoing, off-line discussion conducted by Kirk Shanahan. I have not been following the story, but anyway, I went to the trouble to compose a rather involved response, and I thought might be of general interest, so here's a copy. I apologize to people on Shanahan's mailing list who already got a copy. I came in late in this conversation, but anyway I think kirk.shanahan srs.gov wrote: >So, on mtelec.gif, please note the jump to the maximum CF peak height that >occurs at about 584 hours. Now here comes the theory. If _any_ event was >occurring here that produced heat at the electrode, what should the >electrode temperature do? That is an interesting question, which I just happened to discuss with Melvin Miles yesterday. Ed Storms has written about it too. Scott Little proposed two answers: >TB: Isn't it obvious? The nuclear processes underway in the cathode must >emit only phonons which propagate losslessly through the electrolyte to the >walls of the cell . . . >Normal Scientist: Your observation clearly proves that the electrode was >NOT the source of the observed heat . . . I have never heard the TB one before, and #2 is incorrect. I believe these are some of the conventional explanations: 1. The temperature probe on the cathode is not sensitive enough, and not as sensitive as the others in the cell or flow. The cathode grows only a little warmer than it would normally be from electrolysis joule heating. (I have no idea how sensitive the probe was in the example Shanahan is discussing.) 2. CF heat in a cathode occurs in tiny, localized hot spots. We know it does because it sometimes causes damage in microscopic spots. In some cases, heat evolution is so rapid and so concentrated that it does not have time to spread out across the metal, even though it moves at the speed of sound, and these local areas of metal vaporize and erupt from within. Such localized damage cannot be caused by chemical reactions, by the way, because they propagate to slowly and the heat would "leak away" from the reaction, uniformly raising the temperature of a much larger area. This evidence has often been seen after the cold fusion reaction, but up until now it has been difficult to observe hot spots in situ during an experiment. However, Miles told me about an exciting development. S. Szpak has recently used an infrared detector to watch the cathode surface, and he has seen temperature elevations as large as 1 or 2 degrees C in places which were later identified as hot spots. This is difficult because even a thin layer of electrolyte water will blurt out the signal. Miles & I do not know how Szpak did it. Perhaps he employs a thin layer of electrolyte in an unusually shaped container. Or he may be using a membrane cathode, with one side exposed to the electrolyte and one to the sensor. I have heard of the latter approach working in experiments in Japan, although it interferes with loading. 3. With some calorimeters, when hot spots develop, the rest of the cathode may actually grow *colder* than, say, a null Pt cathode, a non-working Pd cathode, or the same Pd cathode before heat evolution began. Some calorimeters automatically reduce input to keep the total energy level constant, so excess heat triggers a reduction in power. This is usually done by reducing power to an auxiliary heater, but I have heard of people reducing electrolysis power. Anyway, there is a reason for everything! A counterintuitive result usually has a prosaic explanation. Miles just called again while I was typing this. Here are few more details about the experiment discussed above. Szpak is working with Cu cathodes, with palladium plated out onto the Cu in situ as the experiment begins. The plating solution is a mixture of PdCl2 and LiCl made slightly acid with HCl. This creates jagged "cauliflower" structures of Pd on the Cu with enormous surface area. Miles did not mention how long Szpak's cathodes last. He and Szpak will be writing a paper about this. Miles replicated excess heat with this method at the NHE lab in three out of three experiments, in runs lasting 8 or 9 days. Storms says that this type of cathode does not last long, because the Pd flakes off. He thought it might only last a few hours, but Miles says that although some of the Pd flaked off and precipitated to the bottom of the cell, most of it was intact after 9 days of electrolysis and 8 days of CF excess heat generation. (The excess heat begins in the first day or two.) He would have run longer but they needed the equipment for another experiment. NOTE: If you try this experiment, please vent the cell carefully because it sometimes evolves clorine gas at the anode. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:19:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31930; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:18:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:18:14 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <56.56efc824.25a6608f aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:18:07 EST Subject: Re: The Nature of Evil To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"unx3w2.0.qo7.MQGTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 12:55:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net writes: > Subj: Re: The Nature of Evil > Date: 1/6/00 12:55:26 PM Pacific Standard Time > From: mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) > Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: > >> "The generations of so called "Americans" who...... blah...blah....blah...... <<<>>> Mitchell can you please move this balony to Vortex-B? You did post that you were "sorry" but now why do you continue here on "L"? Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:21:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32096; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:18:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:18:23 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:18:08 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"SR6IT2.0.Hr7.UQGTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 11:54:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, stk sunherald.infi.net writes: > > M Jones wrote: > > > > Snip usual Jones BULLSHIT! > > > > FJS > > Quite uncalled for. Mr. Jones has the right to express his opinion, as you > have. I don't agree with everything he wrote...but I also don't agree with > all of your 'light lepton' theorizing. I am not trying to start a flamewar, > just pointing out that Mr. Jones has as much right as you to theorize. > > --K. > Mr. Jones absolutly has a right to express his opinion....but this listserver is for scientific discussions, experiments and the like. He was asked politly last week to take the discussion to the Vortex-B listserver, he agreed, then posted another "opinion" here, apoligized for that, saying he would go to Vort-B, then again continues to post here on L. I don't blame Fred for getting bent out of shape what after two posts to the wrong group and now we are up to yet another. Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:54:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13892; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:51:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:51:23 -0800 Message-ID: <007e01bf5891$0a1c6b00$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <85.855f02ed.25a65b70 aol.com> Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:57:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"g5NVz2.0.zO3.QvGTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, You wrote: >Not much difference with or without K it seems, >but a lot of ground to cover yet. If there is >an effect I'm looking for a big difference. - Actually you have already found a considerable difference if you correct for the T ^4 dependence of radiated power as a function of absolute temperature. I suggest that instead of trying to hold the input power constant you attempt to hold the Tc constant to give equal output power. This would avoid having to compensate the Tc/w readings for the very large nonlinear changes caused by Tc changes. - >Anyone out there know a supplier of a DC wattmeter that will use a DC volt >range of 0 to 50 volts and a current range of 0 to 150 milliamps? Direct >reading analog preferred. My Simpson engineering catalog only lists AC >wattmeters. - I purchased a used Valhalla 2101 Digital Power Analyzer recently. It covers the range you asked for and works for DC as well as arbitrary waveforms within the 50 kHz bandwidth constraint. I purchased it from Cliff Chapman at US Instrument Services for $331. At the time he still had one unit left to sell. You can call Cliff at (800) 870-0787. They also have a web site: www.us-instrument.com - Regards, George - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 14:22:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26551; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:20:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:20:55 -0800 Message-ID: <019b01bf5875$078a8640$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3874CD8F.59B57661 bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:36:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"irZFj.0.nU6.7LHTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Blanton To: Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: Magnetic Communications Biomass heap Blanton wrote: :-) > So, Sparber, what do you think this guy is doing? > > http://www.dmagazine.com/magazine/bdfeature.html Looks good to me, Terry. As long as it doesn't interfere with the mil's use of the cross country Xmission lines for ELF communications/antennas. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 14:36:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31801; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:34:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:34:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106162257.00fa3550 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:22:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <011701bf5838$a817ad00$2e441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5GgAl3.0.pm7.PXHTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick, I'm beginning to understand but it makes me shudder because I've taken years to decide that gravity is an FTL pushing force. {Mechanique Celeste.} :-)) To suddenly do a "180" on this requires that I pass though an Orwellian double think. Is it possible that both ideas have merit? (Maybe a push-pull circuit? :-) I can see that an open coaxial cable, (un-terminated on each end) will reflect it's signal back and forth like a damped wave, and if it has zero loss, the signal would persist like a permanent standing wave. I can't yet envision though how this analogy translates into a "pull".. gravity of attraction. The term "magnetogravitational force" is giving me some concern also. I was not aware that this was a linear force. I thought gravitomagnetism [or magnetogravity] was a sort of Torsion field, and 'electrogravity' was the term used for the actual gravity force. And what about aberration? If the apparatus is linking with an inertial mass field a light year distant, will there not be a light speed delay? How do these (light speed) antigravity photon's know where the moving craft will be when they reflect back? (We aren't talking about time reflections also, are we?) None of these questions though, are as important as the experiment. Have you been working on this, Fred? :-) Colin. > >IOW, the "current loops" due to the circling or to-and-fro motion (Spin) of the electron or the >quarks that make up a nucleus each act as a current loop, ie., a magnetic dipole that produces >the magnetogravitational force where I = q*f and L is the amplitude of the Simple Harmonic >motion, ie., (4.8E-11 ampere-meters). > >However, since the gyrations are at, or very close to c, the relativistic dilation effects >reduce the force: F = 1.0E-7 * I1*L1 * I2*L2/(spacing^2*relativistic dilation factor) > >The relativistic dilation factor can be determined by comparing the measured gravitational >forces between masses and the calculated force between quarks (~3.3E18). > <> >However, at 0.02583 Ampere-Meters per kilogram, the Earth can exert an antigrav force >of 85 pounds on a one ampere-meter current loop of proper design for force synchronization, >and as you get farther from the Earth your gravitational attraction falls off as the inverse >square, thus with the same energy expenditure or antigrav force, you will maintain the same >acceleration. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 14:46:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04093; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:44:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:44:19 -0800 Message-Id: <200001062244.RAA06953 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:39:57 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jeBr62.0.n_.2hHTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Mr. Jones absolutly has a right to express his opinion....but this listserver > is for scientific discussions, experiments and the like. Read the post Frederick responded to carefully. It is *scientific* in nature. Not political, etc. > > I don't blame Fred for getting bent out of shape what after two posts to the > wrong group and now we are up to yet another. I wasn't aware that discussions of the velocity of light, structure of space, and possible roads to antigravitational propulsion were not welcome here. They were the nature of Mr. Jones' post to which Frederick replied. They are on topic here. --Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 15:22:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19531; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:21:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:21:07 -0800 Message-ID: <021201bf58a4$fc0db1e0$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <200001062244.RAA06953 fh105.infi.net> Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:20:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"yRSmx3.0.ym4.XDITu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Kyle R. Mcallister To: Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Okay, Okay, I was a bit harsh and out of line, with M Jones, but he has a way of pushing his own agenda in a disconcerting manner. I find that when I disagree with someone, "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt." Don't you see? :-) Regards, Frederick > > Mr. Jones absolutly has a right to express his opinion....but this > listserver > > is for scientific discussions, experiments and the like. > > Read the post Frederick responded to carefully. It is *scientific* in > nature. Not political, etc. > > > > I don't blame Fred for getting bent out of shape what after two posts to > the > > wrong group and now we are up to yet another. > > I wasn't aware that discussions of the velocity of light, structure of > space, and possible roads to antigravitational propulsion were not welcome > here. They were the nature of Mr. Jones' post to which Frederick replied. > They are on topic here. > > --Kyle R. Mcallister > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 16:01:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02312; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:00:12 -0800 Message-ID: <021d01bf58aa$703d1880$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000106162257.00fa3550 inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:58:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"AvLUc1.0.xZ.BoITu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Quinney To: Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Colin wrote: > Frederick, > > I'm beginning to understand but it makes me shudder because I've taken years to decide that gravity is an FTL pushing force. {Mechanique Celeste.} :-)) If you look at each infinitesmal LC increment of space the Zo = (L/C)^1/2 is still 377 ohms, but, the "commutation rate" ie., the time to charge and discharge each LC increment can give an apparent FTL result. Case in point; the spin of an electron, mvr = hbar, based on the 2.81E-15 meter "classical radius" of the electron gives a velocity v = 137 times c. Yet the frequency of the electron is 1.23E20 Hz based on f = E/h or the Compton Wavelength h/mc = 2(pi)r = 2.427E-12 meters, thus a frequency of 137*1.23E20 Hz. Then a time dilation of 2.0E21 for the electron would give a "Synch" frequency of 8.42 Hz which is right on top of the Schumann resonance frequency. For the quarks with a dilation of ~3.3E18 the "Synch" frequency would be ~ 438.52 Megahertz. That would shut down the ignition system of a spark ignition engine, wouldn't it? :-) > > To suddenly do a "180" on this requires that I pass though an Orwellian double think. Is it possible that both ideas have merit? (Maybe a push-pull circuit? :-) I've done a few 180s in my lifetime. > > I can see that an open coaxial cable, (un-terminated on each end) will reflect it's signal back and forth like a damped wave, and if it has zero loss, the signal would persist like a permanent standing wave. I can't yet envision though how this analogy translates into a "pull".. gravity of attraction. Have you ever tried to to a five minute mile in your kitchen? I'll bet you can if you run in a circle. So can a photon that was traveling at c and was turned into Two particles essentially trapped in a section of line or a "Tank Circuit". Now it has Spin and can act as a turn of a solenoid, ie., a current loop that creates a magnetogravitational dipole. > > The term "magnetogravitational force" is giving me some concern also. I was not aware that this was a linear force. I thought gravitomagnetism [or magnetogravity] was a sort of Torsion field, and 'electrogravity' was the term used for the actual gravity force. Suit yourself. > > None of these questions though, are as important as the experiment. Have you been working on this, Fred? :-) I only do thought experiments, ~ 50 years of lab work was enough. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Colin. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 16:25:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11201; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:23:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:23:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <56.56efc824.25a6608f aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:10:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Nature of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"kmqT_2.0.uk2.y7JTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In a message dated 1/6/00 12:55:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net >writes: >> Subj: Re: The Nature of Evil >> Date: 1/6/00 12:55:26 PM Pacific Standard Time >> From: mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) >> Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com >> To: vortex-l eskimo.com >> >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> Yesterday I posted a message containing the following: >> >> "The generations of so called "Americans" who...... >blah...blah....blah...... > ><<<>>> > > >Mitchell can you please move this balony to Vortex-B? You did >post that you were "sorry" but now why do you continue here on "L"? > >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas ***{Several points: (1) I thought it was on B. Jim said he was going to post his reply on B, and I assumed he had done so, and simply responded to his comments in my normal way. It was only later that I read his message indicating that he goofed and sent his reply to vortex-l after all. (2) Jim is the one who said he was sorry, not I. While I plan to move any further comments to vortex b, I do not regret in the slightest the fact that some of this material has already appeared on vortex-l, for a simple reason: vortex-l is flooded with material that is technically "off topic" every day, and nobody complains. Thus complaints directed at this particular thread are a blantant instance of applying a double standard, the reasons for which are obvious. (3) The correct spelling is "baloney" not "balony." --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 16:32:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14871; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:31:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:31:02 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:27:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"tY9IE3.0.He3.5FJTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In a message dated 1/6/00 11:54:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, >stk sunherald.infi.net writes: > >> > M Jones wrote: >> > >> > Snip usual Jones BULLSHIT! >> > >> > FJS >> >> Quite uncalled for. Mr. Jones has the right to express his opinion, as you >> have. I don't agree with everything he wrote...but I also don't agree with >> all of your 'light lepton' theorizing. I am not trying to start a flamewar, >> just pointing out that Mr. Jones has as much right as you to theorize. >> >> --K. >> >Mr. Jones absolutly has a right to express his opinion....but this listserver >is for scientific discussions, experiments and the like. He was asked politly >last week to take the discussion to the Vortex-B listserver, he agreed, then >posted another "opinion" here, apoligized for that, saying he would go to >Vort-B, then again continues to post here on L. ***{As noted in another post, you are confusing me with Jim Ostrowski. Also, do you have some sort of problem with the letter "e"? First, you sent out "balony" instead of "baloney", and now you send out "absolutly" and "politly". (Maybe it's time for you to shell out the big bucks and get a new keyboard! :-) --MJ}*** > >I don't blame Fred for getting bent out of shape what after two posts to the >wrong group and now we are up to yet another. ***{If Fred was bent out of shape about the goings on in a different thread, he should have posted his profanity there. --MJ}*** > >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 16:53:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23503; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:52:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:52:01 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <74.74943b12.25a692a8 aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:51:52 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"qn08-1.0.8l5.nYJTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 1:54:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, george varisys.com writes: > Hi Vince, > You wrote: > >Not much difference with or without K it seems, ..... > - > Actually you have already found a considerable difference if > you correct for the T ^4 dependence of radiated power as > a function of absolute temperature. I suggest that instead of > trying to hold the input power constant you attempt to hold the > Tc constant to give equal output power. This would be very tough to do as the thermal response of the setup is quite slow. For instance, if I change power input from say 15 watts to 25 watts it takes ~ 1 minute for a change to _start_ to take place and more than ~20 minutes for the temperature reading to stabilize at the higher temperature. Slow response because the quartz tube is enclosed in a copper capsule which is again enclosed in an insulation packed steel can. The thermocouple is attached to the copper capsule. I can't see a way to easily control temperature with this thermal delay but I will give it a try. Thanks George. > - > >Anyone out there know a supplier of a DC wattmeter that will use a DC volt > >range of 0 to 50 volts and a current range of 0 to 150 milliamps? Direct > >reading analog preferred. My Simpson engineering catalog only lists AC > >wattmeters. > - > I purchased a used Valhalla 2101 Digital Power Analyzer recently. > It covers the range you asked for and works for DC as well as > arbitrary waveforms within the 50 kHz bandwidth constraint. > I purchased it from Cliff Chapman at US Instrument Services for $331. > At the time he still had one unit left to sell. > You can call Cliff at (800) 870-0787. > They also have a web site: www.us-instrument.com Will this unit provide a continuous 'Watts' display? Like if it is displaying say 30 watts and I lower the power supply variac will it track the supply and display it real time ? > Regards, > George > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 18:41:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29219; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:38:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:38:55 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:38:47 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"-pVtg2.0.P87.-6LTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/5/00 4:47:33 PM, colin quinney wrote: <> Right. Mills himself recently said that his ideas about antigravity still awaited experimentation. See Erik Baard's long article in THE VILLAGE VOICE, Dec. 22-28, 1999. <> Last I looked, Mills' thousand-page 1999 book was available direct from BlackLight Power for $85, or within 24 hours from Amazon.com for $100, or as a special order in three to five weeks from Barnes & Noble for $75. There's a ton of stuff on the website , but I don't recall seeing antigravity there. Does any other Vortexian? <> Boy, people sure do have trouble with Mills' first name. It's Randell, not Randal. And Mills is more open than anyone else. He provides the fullest specs for an antigravity device that I know of. Mills is a lot more open than Podkletnov in my opinion. <> Mills' work is the pearl, but it's often obscured by the dust and sand (and sometimes mud) that's thrown at it. <> It's too bad that NASA and the USAF don't have the same attitude. And if they can only spare one million, then it's too bad that they won't hire Mills. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 19:36:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15327; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:34:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:34:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:36:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4su3m.0.Pl3.AxLTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Randell Mills' proposed antigravity machine: "The craft Mills imagines would be made of hydrino compounds and powered by hydrino engines and batteries. There would be pods containing intersecting helium and electron beams under a negatively charged plate. The electrons in the beam would be deformed in such a way that they would oppose gravity and push up against that electric field of the negative plate, Mills theorizes. Anything attached to the plate would also experience lift." Can anyone please explain this? Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 20:17:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA28131; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:15:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:15:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:15:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7UadY.0.Tt6.8XMTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:36 PM 1/6/00 -0500, Colin Quinney wrote: >"The craft Mills imagines would be made of hydrino compounds and powered by >hydrino engines and batteries. There would be pods containing intersecting >helium and electron beams under a negatively charged plate. The electrons >in the beam would be deformed in such a way that they would oppose gravity >and push up against that electric field of the negative plate, Mills >theorizes. Anything attached to the plate would also experience lift." > >Can anyone please explain this? I can only speculate that Mills is planning to use the classical EM prediction that a charged dipole will self-accelerate and thus, if oriented correctly, act against gravity. This oddity has been explored by Boyer, Griffiths and Owen, and Cornish who have published papers on the subject. Frankly, I don't believe their result because self-acceleration would violate conservation of energy. Unfortunately, I'm not presently capable of thoroughly dissecting their analyses to look for improper assumptions, errors, etc. that could have led to the self-acceleration result. When I try to interest my mathematically-oriented colleagues in this problem, they aren't very enthusiastic because they are already numbed by similar inconsistencies in classical EM theory...and in QM theory (i.e. mass renormalization). Sometimes in physics, if you really probe into the underlying details of something you find out that we don't understand it at all. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 21:13:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13596; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:10:23 -0800 Message-ID: <20000107051022.9362.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:10:22 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Question of Mass of Magnetic field, A Protocol to measure same To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"xCmJr3.0.MK3._KNTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Do we have a consensus about the BBGB, or BLOW-BY-GRINDING-BLOW, > of HOW to measure the mass of a magnetic field? > > I will make one suggestion: > > > 1] A 10 lb spool of about # 20 AWG magnet wire is used. The > inside of the spool is found by carving, melting or otherwise brutalizing > the bobbin on which the wire is wound. [snip] Before BBGB, let's make a simple estimate. The relation between energy (W) of any kind and rest mass (m) is mc^2 = W. If you manage to store W = 1 kj in your coil (which might be possible), the expected mass increase is 10^-14 kg. Will you be able to measure this? ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 21:17:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15777; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:14:43 -0800 Message-ID: <20000107051441.11455.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:14:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"y4IR13.0.Ms3.2PNTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: > Actually you have already found a considerable difference if > you correct for the T ^4 dependence of radiated power as > a function of absolute temperature. Remember: Vince has thermal insulation around the Cu tube where he measures T. Therefore, there is no free radiation. Furthermore, Vince has calibrated his temperature reading vs heating power, and this calibration includes everything,... at least within the limits of the rather poor reproducibility (for a calorimeter) among the calibration runs. He is looking for a big effect. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 22:25:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04618; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:24:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:24:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:21:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"wuTUf2.0.281.hQOTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:36 PM 1/6/00 -0500, Colin Quinney wrote: > >>"The craft Mills imagines would be made of hydrino compounds and powered by >>hydrino engines and batteries. There would be pods containing intersecting >>helium and electron beams under a negatively charged plate. The electrons >>in the beam would be deformed in such a way that they would oppose gravity >>and push up against that electric field of the negative plate, Mills >>theorizes. Anything attached to the plate would also experience lift." >> >>Can anyone please explain this? > >I can only speculate that Mills is planning to use the classical EM >prediction that a charged dipole will self-accelerate and thus, if oriented >correctly, act against gravity. This oddity has been explored by Boyer, >Griffiths and Owen, and Cornish who have published papers on the subject. >Frankly, I don't believe their result because self-acceleration would >violate conservation of energy. ***{In principle, within classical theory, this is not necessary. Just as there is no violation of conservation of energy when a propeller moves an airplane one way by moving air the other way, so there would be no violation if a properly configured electric field moved a spacecraft one way by pushing aether the other way. All that is required is that the aether exist in the classical sense of the term--i.e., in the form of a particulate medium that pervades all of space--and that a properly configured electric field of sufficient intensity be capable of producing a directed flow of aether. In that case, the device that pushed the aether one way would, in strict accordance with Newton's law of reaction, move the other way. And, since such an aether would pervade all of space, such a method of propulsion would work throughout the universe, rather than merely in the atmosphere. That's why I am intensely interested in knowing whether anyone has done an experiment such as Naudin's in a vacuum. --MJ}*** [snip] > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 22:26:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04594; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:24:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:24:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000106161625.00e0b2c0 inforamp.net> References: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:52:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"S1fKu2.0.i71.fQOTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >So far as I know, this is considered for only atmospheric propulsion. ***{That may well be so. However, there are aspects of classical theory which hint tantalizingly that effects of this sort might work in a vacuum. Just as a propeller moves an aircraft one way by moving air the other way, so an appropriatly configured electric field might move a spacecraft one way by moving aether the other way. I therefore find myself wondering if anyone has tested for this effect in a vacuum. Surely there is not such a paucity of research in this area that no one has an answer to this! --MJ}*** I did >not realize that anyone was claiming that it will work in space, but it may >eventually assist somewhat in the removal of friction-generated heat during >the re-entry of space vehicles. The propulsion technique works. It's a >fairly new technology and it seems to show some promise. See JN Naudin's >web site. Imagine a saucer shaped vehicle 30 feet in diameter, quietly >hovering over your home. Even to the initiated, this will be an impressive >sight. :-) > >Colin Quinney [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 23:02:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA16496; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:01:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:01:57 -0800 Message-ID: <01CCCCC7.2BC96980 istf-1-5.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: The Nature of Evil Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:01:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01CCCCC7.2BC96980" Resent-Message-ID: <"a6523.0.g14.azOTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01CCCCC7.2BC96980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit civility index < 1 cumulative S/N ratio < 0.1 author ==> permanent trash filter Regretfully, Dan Quickert -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Jones Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 4:10 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Nature of Evil ***{Several points: (1) I thought it was on B. Jim said he was going to post his reply on B, and I assumed he had done so, (2) Jim is the one who said he was sorry, not I. 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Furthermore, Vince has calibrated=20 his > temperature reading vs heating power, and this calibration includes > everything,... at least within the limits of the rather poor=20 reproducibility =20 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My emphasis; vince > (for a calorimeter) among the calibration runs. He is looking for a big=20 > effect. > =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Michael J. Schaffer >=20 Yes Michael, getting the numbers to line up in the setup I have is quite difficult. I'm playing one armed paperhanger trying to keep at least one of the parameters constant. I am constantly juggling fill pressure and power input... And to get power input I have to be constantly punching=20 V x I in a calculator while getting the readings from two digital meters.=20 That is why I'm looking for a direct reading wattmeter, analog type=20 preferred.=20 Or... per the suggestion by George Holz, go for a temperature=20 constant... hmm, I wonder if I could cobble up a temperature controller that= =20 could vary the AC input to the power supply (it draws about 2 amperes from the mains at the power levels I am using) (5 amps at full power) by=20 use of some unknown to me, solid state AC controller, or... a servo motor attached to the variac shaft? ( Shades of Rube Goldberg ! )=20 Thermal response would not be a problem. Could use a thermocouple mounted against the tube for fast response. Building a servo controller though....not sure if I could, hell of a job. Any of those around? A unit that will continuously vary 120 VAC=20 mains voltage in response to a thermocouple input.=20 Have to be a thermocouple though as the temperature could get up to 800=BA C and a thermistor wouldn't hack it. =20 The high speed laser printers ( 22 MPH web speed) I worked on at IBM used thermistor control of the fuser roll ('bout 425=BA F) but=20 controlled it by triacs in an on-off mode, =20 That wont work for me. It would kill the power supply. Suggestions? Ideas? Regards, Vince Cockeram Suffering from cockpit overload in a chilly garage in... Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 :) --part1_61.618e7ff8.25a6f4c4_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:17:15 -0500 Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:17:03 -0500 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15777; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:14:43 -0800 Message-ID: <20000107051441.11455.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:14:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"y4IR13.0.Ms3.2PNTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Holz wrote: > Actually you have already found a considerable difference if > you correct for the T ^4 dependence of radiated power as > a function of absolute temperature. Remember: Vince has thermal insulation around the Cu tube where he measures T. Therefore, there is no free radiation. Furthermore, Vince has calibrated his temperature reading vs heating power, and this calibration includes everything,... at least within the limits of the rather poor reproducibility (for a calorimeter) among the calibration runs. He is looking for a big effect. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com --part1_61.618e7ff8.25a6f4c4_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 23:52:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA28746; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:50:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:50:35 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <4a.4a66498d.25a6f4c2 aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 02:50:26 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"YFj8N.0.417.AhPTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 7:36:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, quinney inforamp.net writes: > "The craft Mills imagines would be made of hydrino compounds and powered by > hydrino engines and batteries. There would be pods containing intersecting > helium and electron beams under a negatively charged plate. The electrons > in the beam would be deformed in such a way that they would oppose gravity > and push up against that electric field of the negative plate, Mills > theorizes. Anything attached to the plate would also experience lift." > > Can anyone please explain this? > > Colin Quinney Colin, did this come from his book? It wasn't mentioned (except a passing reference) in the VV article. Regards, Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 03:28:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA07074; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 03:27:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 03:27:24 -0800 Message-ID: <027901bf590a$784b2980$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:25:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"fxbH6.0.Pk1.SsSTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Number Crunching for the Electron: Energy, E = 8.19E-14 Joule Mass = 9.1E-31 Kg Capacitance of Space, eo = 8.84E-12 Farads/Meter Inductance of Space, uo = 4(pi)E-7 Henry/Meter Alpha = 0.00729729 Compton Wavelength = h/mc = 2.427E-12 Meters Charge, q = (+/-) 1.602E-19 Coulombs = CV = It Classical Radius = 2.81E-15 Meters Capacitance, C = 2.427E-12 * 8.84E-12 * 0.00729729 = 1.5656E-25 Farads Inductance, L = 2.427E-12* 4(pi)E-7 * 0.00729729 = 2.226E-20 Henrys Frequency, f = (1/L*C)^1/2 = 1.69E22 Hz Period, t = 1/f = 5.917E-23 seconds Displacement Current, I = (+/-) q*f = 2.713E3 Amperes Potential, V = (E/(0.5*C)^1/2 = 1.022E6 volts Characteristic Impedance, Zo = (L/C)^1/2 = 377 ohms Spin, hbar = m*137*c*r Conclusion: The smallest-lossless LC increment for any particle (a stationary wave in space) is 1/137th or Alpha times the Compton Wavelength. Spin is the circular (cw or ccw) current flow of the Tank Circuit. The sign (+/-) of the charge q is a conjugate phase relationship. But I don't know why. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 05:51:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02092; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 05:50:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 05:50:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000107085005.007a66e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 08:50:05 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EVZ712.0.cW.JyUTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: 3. With some calorimeters, when hot spots develop, the rest of the cathode may actually grow *colder* than, say, a null Pt cathode, a non-working Pd cathode McKubre wrote me a short note saying this explanation "or something very close to it" is correct, and they proved this quantitatively. So, I got it right! I must have picked this up in the EPRI book. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 06:56:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22885; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 06:53:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 06:53:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000107085017.01df6e9c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 08:50:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill In-Reply-To: <61.618e7ff8.25a6f4c4 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8dQuX.0.Vb5.ktVTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:50 AM 1/7/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >That is why I'm looking for a direct reading wattmeter, analog type >preferred. I looked for a DC watt xducer...none found. I recently acquired a Clarke-Hess Model 256 wattmeter (digital display) for $225 from a used equipment dealer. It's similar to the Valhalla that George mentioned. >Or... per the suggestion by George Holz, go for a temperature >constant... hmm, I wonder if I could cobble up a temperature controller that >could vary the AC input to the power supply (it draws about 2 amperes from >the mains at the power levels I am using) (5 amps at full power) by >use of some unknown to me, solid state AC controller, or... a servo >motor attached to the variac shaft? ( Shades of Rube Goldberg ! ) Ahh! Please take a look at the one I built. It's the 5th picture on this page: http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report.html It worked great but I had a computer algorithm operating the motor. >Building a servo controller though....not sure if I could, hell of a job. >Any of those around? A unit that will continuously vary 120 VAC >mains voltage in response to a thermocouple input. Setting up an old PC to control things is not all that hard, Vince. What kind of meter are you using to read your TC's now? Does it have an analog output? If so, that could go directly into a data acq. card in the PC. I've seen them for as little as $250 (http://store.yahoo.com/webtronics/genpurdatacb.html). You can control the motor with the RS-232 handshake lines on the COM port as I did. OK, it's not all that easy...but I'll help you if you want to get into it. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 07:15:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30224; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:13:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:13:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000107091018.01df1620 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 09:10:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000107085005.007a66e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CQA272.0.AO7.iAWTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:50 AM 1/7/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I wrote: > > 3. With some calorimeters, when hot spots develop, the rest of > the cathode may actually grow *colder* than, say, a null Pt > cathode, a non-working Pd cathode > >McKubre wrote me a short note saying this explanation "or something very >close to it" is correct, and they proved this quantitatively. So, I got it >right! I must have picked this up in the EPRI book. Despite McKubre's support of your hypothesis, I still don't buy it. In order for the exiting calorimeter water to become measurably hotter than the inlet water, there has to be an object inside the cell that is hotter than the exiting water. Otherwise heat would not flow from this object to the calorimeter water. Inside the cell, things are stirred relatively well by electrolysis bubbles if not a mechanical stirrer. If something in there is producing sufficient heat to make the exit water detectably hotter then I expect a temperature probe placed ANYWHERE inside the cell to register a detectable temperature RISE when the object starts generating this heat. I believe they used Pt RTDs throughout for temperature sensors so your other hypothesis about the Telec sensor not being sensitive enough cannot be correct either. If a Pt RTD can see the increase in Tout temperature, then a similar sensor can surely see the larger increase in cell temperature that must necessarily precede the Tout increase. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 08:00:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15564; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:59:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:59:34 -0800 Message-ID: <38760DA8.CC3BC264 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 09:00:45 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes References: <3.0.1.32.20000107091018.01df1620 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"A9NrI3.0.2p3.crWTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 08:50 AM 1/7/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >I wrote: > > > > 3. With some calorimeters, when hot spots develop, the rest of > > the cathode may actually grow *colder* than, say, a null Pt > > cathode, a non-working Pd cathode > > > >McKubre wrote me a short note saying this explanation "or something very > >close to it" is correct, and they proved this quantitatively. So, I got it > >right! I must have picked this up in the EPRI book. > > Despite McKubre's support of your hypothesis, I still don't buy it. In > order for the exiting calorimeter water to become measurably hotter than > the inlet water, there has to be an object inside the cell that is hotter > than the exiting water. Otherwise heat would not flow from this object to > the calorimeter water. Inside the cell, things are stirred relatively well > by electrolysis bubbles if not a mechanical stirrer. If something in there > is producing sufficient heat to make the exit water detectably hotter then > I expect a temperature probe placed ANYWHERE inside the cell to register a > detectable temperature RISE when the object starts generating this heat. > > I believe they used Pt RTDs throughout for temperature sensors so your > other hypothesis about the Telec sensor not being sensitive enough cannot > be correct either. If a Pt RTD can see the increase in Tout temperature, > then a similar sensor can surely see the larger increase in cell > temperature that must necessarily precede the Tout increase. As I noted in an earlier post, the temperature measured within an electrolyte is highly variable because of random convection currents. Therefore, measuring small changes in the temperature of the cathode is very difficult. When only ca 300 mW of excess is superimposed on several watts of electrolysis power, the effect is generally to small to detect regardless of expectations. On the other hand, when the excess is several watts, the effect can be clearly seen. These statements are based on experimental observation rather than on speculation. In addition, if as expected, the excess energy production is in microbursts, the time constant of the temperature detector and the surrounding water may not be sufficiently short to see the full extent of the local temperature increase, seeing instead a much lower average value. I am saying that this average can be overwhelmed by the random "noise" in the temperature at the cathode. This discussion by Kirk is rather like debating how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. A great deal of effort is directed to factors which have very little meaning and totally ignore important variables. This approach is taken because McKubre treated the important variables so well so that no room remains for them to be attacked, hence only these trivial points remain. Let's get on with talking about something important. Ed Storms > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 08:28:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26008; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:27:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:27:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000107112706.0079e9c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 11:27:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000107091018.01df1620 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000107085005.007a66e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_lq1A2.0.FM6.cFXTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I came in the middle of this discussion, so I do not quite follow what Scott Little is referring to here. He wrote: >Despite McKubre's support of your hypothesis, I still don't buy it. In >order for the exiting calorimeter water to become measurably hotter than >the inlet water, there has to be an object inside the cell that is hotter >than the exiting water. Yes, of course. The cathode is always hotter than anything else in the cell. This is true during ordinary electrolysis, when there is no excess heat. (Except, I suppose, in cells with a large compensation heater.) I thought the question here is: Does the cathode temperature go up when CF excess heat begins? The answer is no, not necessarily. That is a function of the calorimetric method and the physics of heat transfer from cathode to water. If something in there >is producing sufficient heat to make the exit water detectably hotter then >I expect a temperature probe placed ANYWHERE inside the cell to register a >detectable temperature RISE when the object starts generating this heat. No, not if there is a compensation heater or electrolysis. The SRI calorimeter is designed to keep the total energy output unchanging. As excess heat turns on, input power is reduced to compensate for it. >I believe they used Pt RTDs throughout for temperature sensors so your >other hypothesis about the Telec sensor not being sensitive enough cannot >be correct either. That was a generalization. I was not discussing any particular sensor; as I said, I did not know which cell Shanahan was talking about. Glass encased probes placed near cathodes are sometimes insensitive. >If a Pt RTD can see the increase in Tout temperature, >then a similar sensor can surely see the larger increase in cell >temperature that must necessarily precede the Tout increase. With the compensation method, the inlet, outlet and cell temperature remain the same when there is excess heat. Input power decreases. The Pt RTD sees no increase. (Actually, it sees a tiny increase and it tells the other gadgets to reduce power. It acts as a thermostat.) When CF heat turns on, the cathode may grow cooler in the spot the temperature sensor touches, while it grows hotter in other nuclear-active spots. The persistent 1 to 2 deg C temperature differences across Szpak's cathode are much larger than I would have expected. I thought they would be in the hundreds of a degree. Evidently heat generated by CF in a tiny location couples to the surrounding water and escapes even before it has time to travel through the copper. I do not understand how the physics of this work, but that is the observation. If overall electrolysis power to Szpak's cathode were to be reduced after CF turns on, the temperature on a nonactive spot would be 1 to 2 deg C cooler than it was before CF began. If the temperature probe happened to be touching that nonactive spot, it would register a temperature drop. In fact, I would expect a spot touched by or in close proximity to a temperature probe would not become nuclear-active. A probe is likely to interfere with electric fields, which may prevent loading. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 08:53:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01461; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:52:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:52:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000107115352.015ee7f0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 11:53:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <4a.4a66498d.25a6f4c2 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA01395 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZxUT-1.0.eM.lcXTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, There may be more than one Mills article (?) I went to this Village Voice article, which is over 90 paragraphs long. Use the word search "craft". It's near the bottom. :-) Here's another quote from the page, "His theory predicted in clear language two recent astronomical discoveries—one, the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, and, two, there are stars that measure as older than the expansion of the universe itself." Best, Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 08:55:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15170; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:51:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:51:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000107114735.007a0760 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 11:47:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes In-Reply-To: <38760DA8.CC3BC264 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000107091018.01df1620 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1B0P4.0.gi3.-bXTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >As I noted in an earlier post, the temperature measured within an electrolyte >is highly variable because of random convection currents. Yes, I should have thought of that too. Many probes do not actually touch the cathode surface, because that interferes with electrolysis. Even probes in contact with the surface will also be in contact with the water and with bubbles of gas which are moving around and constantly changing. It is mighty complicated. >In addition, if as expected, the excess energy production is in >microbursts, the time constant of the temperature detector and the surrounding >water may not be sufficiently short to see the full extent of the local >temperature increase . . . I think that is how most cathodes work, based on the destruction and transmutations found after the event. Szpak is apparently seeing fairly persistant spots where I presume many microbursts occuring in a small area. They persist long enough to register on the RF sensor, which is a lot longer than I would have predicted. It reminds me of a persistant lightning storm seen from space that stays in one small area of Earth longer than usual, or the Great Red Spot on Jupiter. People say that is an unchanging weather pattern, which would be contradiction of terms here on Earth! A great deal of effort is directed to factors which have >very little meaning and totally ignore important variables. This approach is >taken because McKubre treated the important variables so well so that no room >remains for them to be attacked, hence only these trivial points remain. Exactly right! Although it is sort of fun to learn about the small details, once you have a handle on the big picture. Perhaps the precise mechanism of the heat transfer from nuclear-active spots to the surroundings may hide some clue that a theoretician would find interesting. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 09:02:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06079; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:01:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:01:21 -0800 Message-ID: <02a401bf5939$1c51e400$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Texaco scores gusher - Jan. 07 , 2000 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:00:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF58F6.045BFE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"gTG7Z1.0.vU1.XlXTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF58F6.045BFE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://cnnfn.com/2000/01/07/companies/wires/texaco_wg/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF58F6.045BFE00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Texaco scores gusher - Jan. 07 , 2000.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Texaco scores gusher - Jan. 07 , 2000.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://cnnfn.com/2000/01/07/companies/wires/texaco_wg/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://cnnfn.com/2000/01/07/companies/wires/texaco_wg/ Modified=8094D5033959BF013E ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF58F6.045BFE00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 11:16:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA22878; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:14:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:14:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01CCCCC7.2BC96980 istf-1-5.ucdavis.edu> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:58:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: The Nature of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"L3_X3.0.Ob5.8iZTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >civility index < 1 >cumulative S/N ratio < 0.1 > >author ==> permanent trash filter > >Regretfully, >Dan Quickert ***{Yup. On the planet of evil--i.e., Earth--discussions of the nature of evil play to a small audience! --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 12:30:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21561; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:27:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:27:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000107142346.01df94f4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 14:23:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes Cc: Kirk.Shanahan srs.gov In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000107114735.007a0760 pop.mindspring.com> References: <38760DA8.CC3BC264 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000107091018.01df1620 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uW4lA1.0.lG5.-maTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:47 AM 1/7/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Edmund Storms wrote: > >>As I noted in an earlier post, the temperature measured within an electrolyte >>is highly variable because of random convection currents. > >Yes, I should have thought of that too. Many probes do not actually touch >the cathode surface, because that interferes with electrolysis. Even probes >in contact with the surface will also be in contact with the water and with >bubbles of gas which are moving around and constantly changing. It is >mighty complicated. Sigh!....Ed's response is so reasonable sounding....and you've managed to drape the Cloak of Complexity on it, too. The fact is that the observed electrolyte temperature in the subject experiment was quite STABLE (estimated jitter is +/- 0.03C) during the purported excess heat event. The purported 400 mW excess should have made a pronounced increase (~0.3C) in Telec even if the source of the heat was relatively poorly coupled to the Telec sensor. There is NO sign of an increase in Telec during the purported heat burst. In fact, Telec declines steadily during that period. I don't see any way to interpret this finding other than as BAD NEWS for the validity of the purported excess heat in McKubre's experiment. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 12:53:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31507; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:52:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:52:03 -0800 Message-ID: <004d01bf5951$fbb6d6b0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <74.74943b12.25a692a8 aol.com> Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:58:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"TfKR03.0.6i7.o7bTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote: > I can't > see a way to easily control temperature with this thermal delay but I > will give it a try. Thanks George. - With the long time constant, perhaps this idea is impractical. I would rather see you generate more data than spend weeks developing a servo system which might still not work due to changing temperature distribution with pressure at the tube. - Michael Schaffer wrote: >Remember: >Vince has thermal insulation around the Cu tube where he measures T. >Therefore, there is no free radiation. Furthermore, Vince has calibrated his >temperature reading vs heating power, and this calibration includes >everything,... at least within the limits of the rather poor reproducibility >(for a calorimeter) among the calibration runs. He is looking for a big effect. - Right, the cooling is a complex mixture of conduction, convection and radiation and a calibration graph of Tc vs Pin without K includes the information required to compensate for the nonlinear Tc vs power response. Vince, you should evaluate all of your with K results by plotting them on a graph with the Tc vs Pin without K calibration, as we did for your earlier runs. Based on these earlier results, the effect will probably not be more than about 1.5X the expected power output, don't miss it by expecting too much. - > > I purchased a used Valhalla 2101 Digital Power Analyzer recently. > Will this unit provide a continuous 'Watts' display? Like if it is displaying > say 30 watts and I lower the power supply variac will it track the supply > and display it real time ? - Yes, as would the Clark-Hess unit that Scott mentioned. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 13:37:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06130; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009401bf5957$e9fb98b0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <74.74943b12.25a692a8 aol.com> <004d01bf5951$fbb6d6b0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:41:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"BOusd2.0.fV1.VmbTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, One more quick point, much of the run to run variation you are experiencing may be due to ambient temperature variation. Are you recording the ambient temperature? Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 14:48:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11581; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:46:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:46:53 -0800 Message-ID: <38766D0A.CDD74B06 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 15:47:42 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes References: <38760DA8.CC3BC264 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000107091018.01df1620 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000107142346.01df94f4@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"N7KjJ1.0.tq2.SpcTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 11:47 AM 1/7/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >Edmund Storms wrote: > > > >>As I noted in an earlier post, the temperature measured within an > electrolyte > >>is highly variable because of random convection currents. > > > >Yes, I should have thought of that too. Many probes do not actually touch > >the cathode surface, because that interferes with electrolysis. Even probes > >in contact with the surface will also be in contact with the water and with > >bubbles of gas which are moving around and constantly changing. It is > >mighty complicated. > > Sigh!....Ed's response is so reasonable sounding....and you've managed to > drape the Cloak of Complexity on it, too. > > The fact is that the observed electrolyte temperature in the subject > experiment was quite STABLE (estimated jitter is +/- 0.03C) during the > purported excess heat event. The purported 400 mW excess should have made > a pronounced increase (~0.3C) in Telec even if the source of the heat was > relatively poorly coupled to the Telec sensor. > > There is NO sign of an increase in Telec during the purported heat burst. > In fact, Telec declines steadily during that period. > > I don't see any way to interpret this finding other than as BAD NEWS for > the validity of the purported excess heat in McKubre's experiment. I would like to clarify this exchange with some additional comments I have made to Scott. Maybe noise is not quite the correct word. My internal temperatures are solid in the short term but they drift over a wide range for no apparent reason. Small amounts of excess simply produce effects which are within the drift range. It apparently takes a large excess to force convection currents to favor the thermistor located just above the cathode. My point is that in theory an effect should be seen, but in the real world too much is happening (some of which we do not understand) which can overwhelm the expected effect. On the other hand, McKubre sees heating of the cooling fluid which clearly indicates energy production. To be a little more clear about my attitude, I see value in discussing such problems and issues, but I do not think they should be the basis for rejecting the reality of the phenomena. Once CF is believed to be real, all kinds of issues become important to understand its nature and to improve the accuracy of measurements. Such discussions are the normal fare of science. Unfortunately, we have not reached that level in this field, much to my frustration and impatience. Indeed, to reject the implications obtained from a large body of work using a very well designed calorimeter of demonstrated accuracy just because the internal temperature does not rise the expected amount is, to my way of thinking, a very strange way to do science. Almost every measurement in the general field of science contains aberrations which are ignored because they are assumed to be caused by error or processes which are currently not understood. If the attitude being applied in this case where a general habit, we would know nothing about nature because of all the internal bickering. Please try to keep the bigger picture in mind. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 18:02:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21142; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:32 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:01:23 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"1OrDO1.0.CA5.yffTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 2:00:48 AM, Colin Quinney wrote: <> I doubt that there's any hope for anything based on that view, which seems to me as far out of it as Renzo Boscoli's view that shining stars have a cryogenically cold core. Stuff like that is part of the dust that obscures Mills' work. NASA would be better off trying to make Mills' device, which he has specified in detail, than trying to replicate Podkletnov, who as far as I know remains secretive about key details of his process. Podkletnov experiments look cheaper though, so NASA is trying to achieve the great aim of antigravity with a budget of peanuts. Or is NASA just trying to keep the trekkies happy with a small program? (The trekkies have a lot of votes.) Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 18:02:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21601; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:50 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <86.86e74d48.25a7f479 aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:01:29 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"mvCeo1.0.6C5.5gfTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 5:54:04 PM, George Holz wrote: << Actually you have already found a considerable difference if you correct for the T ^4 dependence of radiated power as a function of absolute temperature. >> Approximately how considerable, George? Can you estimate what input power Vince would need with K to match the cell temperature (Tsubc) without K? That might help Vince deal with the thermal delay problem more easily. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 18:03:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21271; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:42 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <13.130569d3.25a7f47c aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:01:32 EST Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"6VtzK3.0.vB5.4gfTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 4:11:16 PM, Ed Storms wrote: << In addition to a range of different isotopes being found, some radioactive and some stable, ...>> Ed, what radioactive isotopes other than tritium have been found? Some references for those? (By the way, I do think that the tritium is real.) Ed continued: <> Mills doesn't talk about the electron and the deuteron (or proton) collapsing to form a virtual neutron. He doesn't like virtual particles. There are problems with the virtual neutron model, but they're not of Mills' making, since the virtual neutron model isn't his. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 18:03:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21193; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:01:37 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <24.24f36b23.25a7f475 aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:01:25 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"CgfgE2.0.2B5.1gfTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 6:27:38 AM, Fred Sparber wrote: <> Fred, what is it that you find lacking in Mills' theories? It seems to me that his theory and experiments do more than just parallel CF work, they explain it and go beyond it. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 20:09:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30267; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:07:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:07:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3876B854.A6DC67FE ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 21:08:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion References: <13.130569d3.25a7f47c aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Of8_G2.0.rO7.KWhTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/6/00 4:11:16 PM, Ed Storms wrote: > > << In addition to a range of different isotopes being > found, some radioactive and some stable, ...>> > > Ed, what radioactive isotopes other than tritium have been found? Some > references for those? (By the way, I do think that the tritium is real.) Two that come to mind and available in print are: Bush, R. and R. Eagleton, "Evidence for Electrolytically Induced Transmutation and Radioactivity Correlated with Excess Heat in Electrolytic Cells with Light Water Rubidium Salt Electrolytes", Trans. Fusion Technol. 26, #4T (1994) 344. Passell, T. O., "Charting the Way Forward in the EPRI Research Program on Deuterated Metals", Proceedings of the 5th International Conference on Cold Fusion, Monte-Carlo, Monaco April 9 - 13, 1995, IMRA Europe, Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France (1995), p. 603. > > > Ed continued: > > < effect. However, a number of people believe such particles are involved in > the cold fusion process. The debate involves how the electron and the > deuterium (or proton) collapse to produce a virtual neutron and how this > virtual particle can then produce the range of observed effects. Because > several obvious problems exist in this model, it has not been widely > accepted.>> > > Mills doesn't talk about the electron and the deuteron (or proton) collapsing > to form a virtual neutron. He doesn't like virtual particles. There are > problems with the virtual neutron model, but they're not of Mills' making, > since the virtual neutron model isn't his. True, but the issue is were the hydrino ends and the virtual neutron begins. Obviously the hydrino consists of a proton near which an electron is in close orbit. On the other hand, if the electron combines with a proton to produce a neutron, energy is required which is hard to find. A situation between these two extremes can be called a virtual neutron which might act to overcome the coulomb barrier. It is a gray area in which there is room for various theories. The interesting aspect is that each theoretician, including Mills, stakes out some part of this domain at the exclusion of all others. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 21:16:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19335; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:14:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:14:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000108001625.00e4cbe0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 00:16:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zbArF2.0.1k4.rUiTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:01 PM 01/07/00 EST, Tom Stolper wrote: > ><> > >I doubt that there's any hope for anything based on that view, which seems to >me as far out of it as Renzo Boscoli's view that shining stars have a >cryogenically cold core. Stuff like that is part of the dust that obscures >Mills' work. What? You mean that stars don't have cold cores? What about Jupiter's excess heat output then? How do you explain that? ... once again, Colin walks into the lion's den: :( "The Casimir force is a push, not a pull". This is considered an accurate statement, is it not?.. but-- the statement only derives from some current model of waves of energy pushing the two plates together. That's called pressure in my book and it's considered a standard theory for the Casimir's force. The idea of pressure for gravity however, uh-- well, no. We don't consider gravity as a "push". That is just a theory for crackpots. Right? :-) How or why is it more true intuitively, or for that matter even with any kind of mathematical modelling, to believe that tiny invisible gravitons (which have never been detected, and probably never will,) can magically reach out across vast interstellar distances and instantaneously pull two or more objects toward each other.. objects-- some of which are travelling at relativistic velocities, and without any aberration to-boot? Why YES, Colin. That is just the way it is, don't you know. And to think otherwise means that you just don't understand physics and that you must therefore be a Trekkie. (Caught out. True, and ashamedly proud of it :) Well I only took physics 101, but I think that gravitons don't exist. I have not read Mill's theory yet, either BTW. There are a multitude of theories, and I most probably would not have the qualifications in education to understand most of them.. But I can't help but wonder what Mills has to say about the graviton. > >NASA would be better off trying to make Mills' device, which he has specified >in detail, than trying to replicate Podkletnov, who as far as I know remains >secretive about key details of his process. Podkletnov experiments look >cheaper though, so NASA is trying to achieve the great aim of antigravity >with a budget of peanuts. Or is NASA just trying to keep the trekkies happy >with a small program? (The trekkies have a lot of votes.) NASA might be under the impression that private industry [Blacklight Power] is better off doing the Mills gravity experiment itself. Why would Mills gave NASA detailed plans to build the gravity experiment anyway? I can't figure that one out. Surely, if I was an investor in BLP, I'd be pretty darned nervous about them revealing their 2nd ace card to a government with a history of suppressing militarily advantageous patents. Are you at liberty to disclose any of the details? NASA could probably have helped other researchers who needed and requested their assistance than they did, and spreading the taxpayer's risk research money around is probably a good policy. Best, Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 22:14:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA07147; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:13:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:13:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf59a0$06039240$b4f16ed1 default> From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: Subject: Fw: What's New for Jan 07, 2000 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:17:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"aRe65.0.Xl1.AMjTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: What's New To: Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 1:44 PM Subject: What's New for Jan 07, 2000 > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 7 Jan 00 Washington, DC > > 1. BUDGET 2001: CLINTON WILL CALL FOR A MAJOR SCIENCE INITIATIVE. > "It's the economy, stupid" was the slogan of Clinton's campaign > staff eight years ago. Well, the economy is on a roll, and it's > clear that what's driving it are advances in science. A proposal > for a major new initiative in science will be in the President's > 2001 budget request in February. As President Clinton made clear > in his speech in December (WN 10 Dec 99), the call will be for a > "balanced" research portfolio--the unified message delivered by > scientific societies over the past three years has sunk in. And > the emphasis will be on "fundamental" research. You will recall > that in his first term Clinton stressed techology. That did not > sit well with Gingrich Republicans, and opposition to NIST's > Advanced Technology Program even led to efforts to abolish NIST > (WN 8 Sep 95). But industry R&D is up sharply in this economy, > and there is a consensus in Washington that the government should > concentrate its support on basic research. > > 2. SNAKE OIL: FDA CAVES IN TO THE SUPPLEMENT INDUSTRY--AGAIN. > The Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act of 1994, passed > in response to a massive lobbying campaign by the supplement > industry, turned the clock back a hundred years to the days of > traveling snake-oil salesmen. It exempted "natural" dietary > supplements, such as vitamins, minerals and herbs, from proof of > safety, purity or efficacy. The only legal requirement was that > dietary supplements not be promoted as preventing or treating > disease. So what is "disease"? Compliance turned into a > tightrope act. Two years ago FDA proposed a new regulation to > cover such natural conditions as morning sickness, menopause and > memory loss due to aging, within the definition. The industry > launched a new lobbying campaign. Result? The FDA dropped the > broader definition from the final rule issued this week. > > 3. POKEMON: SPOON-BENDING PSYCHIC SUES NINTENDO. The litigious > Uri Geller wants $96M for suffering he says he has endured as a > result of having been parodied as a Pokemon character. Alakazam > is described as an evil magician whose brain possesses incredible > psychic powers. He is drawn with a spoon in each hand--and the > same character is named Ungeller in Japan. It looked like more > than a coincidence. Could other Pokemon characters have also > been drawn from real life? This not being exactly the hotest > news week of the year, the WN staff decided to investigate. You > can imagine our shock when we encountered Professor Oak. He is > drawn in a white lab coat so he must be a scientist, and is > described as a kindly professor who possesses great knowledge and > has dedicated his life to study. Sound like anyone we know? > Hmmm, if the Pokemon creators had a real person in mind, the clue > must lie in the name "Oak." Oak is a tree. And where would you > go to find trees? Yes, yes the forest, but where else? The > Park! Actually, the adjective "kindly" was a dead giveway. > > THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's > and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 03:15:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA28934; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:12:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:12:31 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 22:12:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <027901bf590a$784b2980$2e441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <027901bf590a$784b2980$2e441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA28917 Resent-Message-ID: <"qvdrh.0.047.VknTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:25:43 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: Hi Frederick, [snip] >Potential, V = (E/(0.5*C)^1/2 = 1.022E6 volts Wouldn't you expect the inductance to also represent part of the total energy? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 03:31:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA01550; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:31:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:31:10 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 22:31:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <13.130569d3.25a7f47c aol.com> <3876B854.A6DC67FE@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3876B854.A6DC67FE ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA01528 Resent-Message-ID: <"7n5oz3.0.8O.z_nTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 21:08:57 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >orbit. On the other hand, if the electron combines with a proton to produce a >neutron, energy is required which is hard to find. A situation between these >two extremes can be called a virtual neutron which might act to overcome the >coulomb barrier. It is a gray area in which there is room for various >theories. The interesting aspect is that each theoretician, including Mills, >stakes out some part of this domain at the exclusion of all others. > >Ed Storms Even more interesting is the situation after a hydrino captures another electron and becomes a heavy negative particle. If sufficiently shrunken prior to capturing the extra electron, the negative particle will actually be drawn toward other nuclei, where at least the proton (deuteron) can tunnel into the nucleus, possibly taking one or both electrons with it. Now we have a situation where a neutron light nucleus has been formed (which is thus ripe for electron capture), and possibly one or even two electrons close at hand ripe for the picking (carried in as part of the hydrino-hydride), so that an electron capture reaction is triggered at the same time as the fusion reaction. Now the neutrino can make off with most of the energy! Such a scenario might help explain some of the transmutation results. (And yes Frederick and others I realise that this has been proposed before, in slightly differing guises). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 03:31:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA01168; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:30:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:30:50 -0800 Message-ID: <031601bf59d4$1dffb7a0$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <027901bf590a$784b2980$2e441d26 fjsparber> Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 04:30:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"82AEu.0.AI.f_nTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Robin wrote: > On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:25:43 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Hi Frederick, > [snip] > >Potential, V = (E/(0.5*C)^1/2 = 1.022E6 volts > > Wouldn't you expect the inductance to also represent part of the total > energy? For sure. E = 1/2*L*I^2 during that part of the cycle, or I = (E/0.5*L)^1/2, true? Regards, Frederick > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 03:40:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA03690; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:38:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:38:32 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 22:38:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <027901bf590a$784b2980$2e441d26 fjsparber> <031601bf59d4$1dffb7a0$2e441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <031601bf59d4$1dffb7a0$2e441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA03667 Resent-Message-ID: <"xVyY02.0.Zv.u6oTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 8 Jan 2000 04:30:04 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >> Wouldn't you expect the inductance to also represent part of the total >> energy? > >For sure. E = 1/2*L*I^2 during that part of the cycle, or I = (E/0.5*L)^1/2, true? Yup...it's getting late again and I completely ignored the fact that you were talking about a tank circuit, and not a DC situation :(. > >Regards, Frederick [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 08:17:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25237; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:05:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:05:35 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:01:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: The Relevance of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"JAjDh1.0.FA6.D1sTu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a response to a private e-mail alleging that discussions of evil do not belong in a science group, I said the following: "The topic most assuredly does belong on vortex b, which, as I noted, is where I thought the post which you complained about had gone. As to whether it belongs on vortex-l, well, it is less off topic than many other things that appear there on virtually a daily basis (examples available on request), because it concerns a phenomenon that has, as least arguably, had considerable impact on the receptivity of the scientific community to "over unity" claims. Much of the opposition to CF has come from people who regard the precepts of orthodox physics with virtually religious devotion, and react to doubters in much the same way as medieval Catholics reacted to heresy. Such reactions come from men who are evil in precisely the sense that I defined it in the thread which you allege to be inappropriate--to wit: they acquired their beliefs about physics by absorbing them uncritically, with the aim of currying favor with their teachers and professors. Result: they feel threatened when confronted with challenges to those ideas, because of their guilty knowledge that they never went through a rational verification process and, thus, that those ideas may be wrong. And, of course, there is another group of fanatical opponents who, in addition to the above motivation, have the desire to defend their access to grant money. They realize that CF has produced more tantalizing hints of "over unity" in its brief 11 years of existence than hot fusion has produced in 50, and that if knowledge of that state of affairs should ever penetrate the thick skulls of grant givers in Washington, they could find themselves without funds. Needless to say, that prospect gets their hackles up. Result: being habitual practitioners of selective thinking and, thus, evil to the bone, it is a simple matter for them to convince themselves that CF is based on fraud or incompetence. That is what they want to believe, and so they focus their minds on arguments which seem to support that conclusion and avoid lines of thought that do not. Result: like magic, they believe it! The resulting campaign of slander and villification is history, not speculation." --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 08:29:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30016; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:28:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:28:43 -0800 Message-ID: <010c01bf59f4$aefef520$2d9cf1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991221161146.00799210 pop.mindspring.com> <385FEFA0.A6A8997F@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Travel to Hokkaido & Italy on CF errands Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:23:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0109_01BF59FD.072C3980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"P2MVO3.0.rK7.wMsTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BF59FD.072C3980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Blanton To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Travel to Hokkaido & Italy on CF errands > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > The other day I suggested that Scott Little should travel to Sapporo, > > Hokkaido. I do think the time has come. I have heard Hokkaido is beautiful > > this time of year and the skiing is great. Most Japanese cities are > > miserable in wintertime, but the buildings in Hokkaido are built to > > withstand the cold. > > > > You can probably find cheap airfares nowadays on Internet, by I seldom > > travel so I wouldn't know where to look. I have to find one for ICCF-8, in > > Italy. Supposedly, Italy will be booked full -- the whole country! -- for > > the year 2000, and you're supposed to make a hotel reservation soon, but I > > have not. Is anyone here in touch with the ICCF-8 secretariat, and can you > > tell us anything about this? > > > > The web site appears to be expanded & improved, with a hotel reservation > > form. See: http://www.frascati.enea.it/ICCF8/ > > > > - Jed > > Caution: Italy is the least prepared of all Western European countries for Y2k. > > Fly JAL business class to Japan. I have never seen so many flight attendants > per passenger -- all beautiful! > > Terry > > ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BF59FD.072C3980 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Microsoft Outlook.lnk" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Microsoft Outlook.lnk" TAAAAAEUAgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYLAAAAIAAAAOAf4X38k74BAJiBSqs+vwEARrh+/JO+AQCQAAAA AAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALMAFAAfD+BP0CDqOmkQotgIACswMJ0ZACNDOlwAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAABHuJQAxAAAAAACEJil5EQBQcm9ncmFtIEZpbGVzAFBST0dSQX4xACgAMQAAAAAAhCbL gBAATWljcm9zb2Z0IE9mZmljZQBNSUNST1N+MQAcADEAAAAAAIQmy4AQAE9mZmljZQBPRkZJQ0UA GwAyABBlAABCIgCwIIBPdXRsb29rLmV4ZQAAAABjAAAAHAAAAAEAAAAcAAAALQAAAAAAAABiAAAA EQAAAAMAAAD0F1EYEAAAAABDOlxQcm9ncmFtIEZpbGVzXE1pY3Jvc29mdCBPZmZpY2VcT2ZmaWNl XE9VVExPT0suRVhFAAA3AC4uXC4uXFByb2dyYW0gRmlsZXNcTWljcm9zb2Z0IE9mZmljZVxPZmZp Y2VcT1VUTE9PSy5FWEUAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BF59FD.072C3980-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 09:16:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13766; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:13:54 -0800 Message-ID: <38779B87.641B bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 12:18:15 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: What's New for Jan 07, 2000 References: <000701bf59a0$06039240$b4f16ed1 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UQagu3.0.0N3.H1tTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: What's New > To: > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 1:44 PM > Subject: What's New for Jan 07, 2000 > > > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 7 Jan 00 Washington, DC > > 3. POKEMON: SPOON-BENDING PSYCHIC SUES NINTENDO. The litigious > > Uri Geller wants $96M for suffering he says he has endured as a > > result of having been parodied as a Pokemon character. Alakazam > > is described as an evil magician whose brain possesses incredible > > psychic powers. He is drawn with a spoon in each hand--and the > > same character is named Ungeller in Japan. It looked like more > > than a coincidence. Could other Pokemon characters have also > > been drawn from real life? This not being exactly the hotest > > news week of the year, the WN staff decided to investigate. You > > can imagine our shock when we encountered Professor Oak. He is > > drawn in a white lab coat so he must be a scientist, and is > > described as a kindly professor who possesses great knowledge and > > has dedicated his life to study. Sound like anyone we know? > > Hmmm, if the Pokemon creators had a real person in mind, the clue > > must lie in the name "Oak." Oak is a tree. And where would you > > go to find trees? Yes, yes the forest, but where else? The > > Park! Actually, the adjective "kindly" was a dead giveway. Actually, wasn't "Oak" the name of the scientist in "Independence Day" played by Brent Spiner? Thanks for posting these updates! They are often quite amusing. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 10:20:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA31805; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:19:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:19:13 -0800 Message-ID: <38777EA2.77D1 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 10:14:58 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m7L6S3.0.tm7.W-tTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > "The topic most assuredly does belong on vortex b, which, as I noted, is > where I thought the post which you complained about had gone. (snip) > They realize that CF has produced more tantalizing hints of > "over unity" in its brief 11 years of existence than hot fusion has > produced in 50, and that if knowledge of that state of affairs should ever > penetrate the thick skulls of grant givers in Washington, they could find > themselves without funds. Needless to say, that prospect gets their hackles > up. Result: being habitual practitioners of selective thinking and, thus, > evil to the bone, (snip) Mitchell, as I responded to you over on vortexb, and which response remains there unanswered, your assertion that people who do not think in the way you would prefer them to think, are not to be judged as "evil". People have the right, under the Federal Constitution, to think and to express their thoughts as they please. You are advocating thought control. You have the right to advocate thought control, but if you were to try to implement thought control by enforcing your notions of who was good or evil depending on whether or not they use "selective thinking", by say rounding up all the selective thinkers and putting them in concentration camps, YOU would be exhibiting "evil" behaviour. Evil is only evil when it results in detriment, damage or injury to other people or property. In order for a person to be judged as evil, s/he must perform an evil act knowingly and voluntarily. You have not shown otherwise either here or on Vortexb where YOU AGREED this discussion belongs. I responded to your nonsense there, but you have decided to inveigle your way back here being unable to raise any interest in your crap on vb. You agreed that non science subjects should be posted there, and this attempt to void that agreement by the specious reasoning that cold fusion critics are "evil", is nonsense. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 10:27:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01699; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:26:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:26:25 -0800 Message-Id: <200001081826.NAA23478 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: Fw: What's New for Jan 07, 2000 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:22:08 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BFU6g1.0.TQ.G5uTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Actually, wasn't "Oak" the name of the scientist in "Independence Day" > played by Brent Spiner? Nah, it was pronounced "Okun", not sure how it was spelled. And I knew it couldn't be Park...Park ain't kindly from what I have heard. At least not to anything that goes against preconceived theoretical notions. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 12:24:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29147; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:22:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:22:39 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <8e.8eecac9c.25a8f686 aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:22:30 EST Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"qiqw_1.0.J77.FovTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/8/00 8:17:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net writes: > n a response to a private e-mail alleging that discussions of evil do not > belong in a science group, I said the following: > > "The topic most assuredly does belong on vortex b,........... <<< BIG snippppp >>>>>> So why are you STILL posting evil to Vortex-L? Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 12:47:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03806; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:45:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:45:41 -0800 Message-ID: <038101bf5a21$995a0f20$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: The Evil of Irrelevance Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:44:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Prznz1.0.Nx.r7wTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What do you think, Vince? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 13:25:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06060; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:23:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:23:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3877AA27.51D6 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 13:20:39 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil References: <8e.8eecac9c.25a8f686 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LzSKN1.0.cU1.ZhwTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/8/00 8:17:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net > writes: > > > n a response to a private e-mail alleging that discussions of evil do not > > belong in a science group, I said the following: > > > > "The topic most assuredly does belong on vortex b,........... > <<< BIG snippppp >>>>>> > > So why are you STILL posting evil to Vortex-L? > I take it that Mr. Jones is trying to show how that the relevant subject of cold fusion is integral with the subject of good and evil. People who use "selective thinking" in order to discount the assertions of cold fusion proponents, he surmizes, are evil because the thought processes which they use to make thier arguments rely on selective thinking, which processes, he asserts, are a manifestation of "evil", and that such cold fusion detractors ARE THEREFORE THEMSELVES EVIL, as well. This argument is an absurdity. Since I am unwilling to pursue the demolition of an absurd argument any further, this is my last word on the subject. If you want Jones to shut up, too...good luck. Jim O. > Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 13:29:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06179; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:24:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:24:19 -0800 Message-ID: <038b01bf5a27$0373ac40$2e441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" Subject: Re: Antigrav101 ? Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:22:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"H0WwS.0.TW1.3iwTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A close iteration shows the time-dilated magnetogravity pulse frequency of electrons to be ~ 52.22 Hz. A two-wire flat power cord or a flat 300 ohm twin-lead fed with half-wave rectified 60 Hz pulse might show some weight reduction if the cord is wound around a vertical cardboard cylinder to form an AG "Solenoid" and terminated with a resistance equal to the line impedance. The weight change for 1.0 ampere-meters based on the total electron mass of the Earth being ~ 1/4,000th the mass of the Earth, should be: 1.0E-7*1.0* 0.02583*5.98E24/(4,000*6.38E6^2) ~ = 0.09 nt or 0.36 ounces. If you wants to tap into the Earth's Nuclei magnetogravity, you need a pulse rate of ~767 Megahertz. I Think. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 13:42:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11603; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:40:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:40:59 -0800 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:45:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Good for Michael...Re: Question of Mass of Magnetic field, A , Protocol to measure same In-Reply-To: <20000107051022.9362.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HHfi33.0.9r2.hxwTu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., and Michael, Thank Michael! It is so grand to have someone put experimental aspects into real world stuff.... The guys will neeed a bigger coil! :) J On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Michael Schaffer wrote: > > Do we have a consensus about the BBGB, or BLOW-BY-GRINDING-BLOW, > > of HOW to measure the mass of a magnetic field? > > > > I will make one suggestion: > > > > > > 1] A 10 lb spool of about # 20 AWG magnet wire is used. The > > inside of the spool is found by carving, melting or otherwise brutalizing > > the bobbin on which the wire is wound. > [snip] > > Before BBGB, let's make a simple estimate. The relation between energy (W) of > any kind and rest mass (m) is mc^2 = W. If you manage to store W = 1 kj in > your coil (which might be possible), the expected mass increase is 10^-14 kg. > Will you be able to measure this? > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 17:18:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11084; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:16:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:16:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38777EA2.77D1 ca-ois.com> References: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:10:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"Ofb1K1.0.6j2.H5-Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> >> "The topic most assuredly does belong on vortex b, which, as I noted, is >> where I thought the post which you complained about had gone. > >(snip) > >> They realize that CF has produced more tantalizing hints of >> "over unity" in its brief 11 years of existence than hot fusion has >> produced in 50, and that if knowledge of that state of affairs should ever >> penetrate the thick skulls of grant givers in Washington, they could find >> themselves without funds. Needless to say, that prospect gets their hackles >> up. Result: being habitual practitioners of selective thinking and, thus, >> evil to the bone, > >(snip) > >Mitchell, as I responded to you over on vortexb, and which response >remains there unanswered ***{You will get your response, when I have the time to work my way through your 28 page message. Believe it or not, I have things on my plate other than dealing with you. --MJ}*** , your assertion that people who do not think in >the way you would prefer them to think, are not to be judged as "evil". ***{Huh? --MJ}*** > >People have the right, under the Federal Constitution, to think and >to express their thoughts as they please. ***{Yup. --MJ}*** > >You are advocating thought control. ***{Nope. --MJ}*** You have the right to advocate >thought control, but if you were to try to implement thought control by >enforcing your notions of who was good or evil depending on whether or >not they use "selective thinking", by say rounding up all the selective >thinkers and putting them in concentration camps, YOU would be >exhibiting "evil" behaviour. ***{Yup. So would you, or anyone else. So what? What has the above got to do with this discussion? --MJ}*** Evil is only evil when it results in >detriment, damage or injury to other people or property. ***{False. John Wayne Gacy was just as evil 5 minutes before he committed his first murder as he was 5 minutes after. The act that he committed did not change his character; it merely expressed it in concrete form. --MJ}*** In order for a >person to be judged as evil, s/he must perform an evil act knowingly and >voluntarily. ***{By which, as you have explicitly stated elsewhere, you mean that he must have known that what he was doing was wrong, and yet still chose to do it anyway. However, as I have pointed out to you previously, history indicates that Torquemada believed he was saving heretics from eternal damnation, when he stretched them on the rack and tore their flesh with red-hot pincers; and history also indicates that Himmler believed he was "removing parasites from the body of the people" when he exterminated most of the Jews of Europe. Thus neither of these men believed that what they were doing was wrong, and so neither would be adjudged evil by your standards, despite the palpably obvious fact that they were among the most foul creatures to ever dwell on this blighted planet. --MJ}*** > >You have not shown otherwise either here or on Vortexb where YOU AGREED >this discussion belongs. ***{I agreed that a generalized discussion of the matter of evil which made no direct connection to anomalous science, from a narrow technical standpoint, belonged there. (I also noted that this technicality has, where the posts of others were concerned, been honored mostly in the breach.) However, in this thread I have quite deliberately applied my concept of evil to the question of why anomalous science has been so ill treated, in order to demonstrate that my concept of evil is relevant to this group. --MJ}*** I responded to your nonsense there ***{Nonsense? More bad manners, typical of you. You should ask yourself why you feel impelled to introduce pejoratives into arguments. You might learn something important about your character. --MJ}*** , but you >have decided to inveigle your way back here being unable to raise any >interest in your crap on vb. ***{Crap? There you go again. I guess you think such words lend force to weak arguments. How sad. As for my "being unable to raise any interest" in this topic on vortex b, I do believe I see a 28 page post sitting over there from some fellow, and he has even been complaining loudly that I have not yet responded to him! :-) --MJ}*** > >You agreed that non science subjects should be posted there, and this >attempt to void that agreement by the specious reasoning that cold >fusion critics are "evil", is nonsense. ***{I never claimed that *all* cold fusion critics were evil. Indeed, I am a critic myself, as often as not. The points I made at the start of this thread, concerning the motivations underlying the charges of incompetence and fraud that have been so often hurled at cold fusion researchers, were a sincere attempt to obtain feedback about the analytical approach I apply to such matters. What I wanted was to elicit criticism concerning my definition of evil, and its applicability to such situations. So far you are the only one who has made any attempt at a substantive response, even though you have also made your usual attempt to turn the discussion into a name-calling contest. To put a point on the matter, let me address some very specific questions to those of you who disagree with my approach: (1) Do you think a person who uncritically adopts the opinions of his physics teachers in order to receive a "good grade" is in some fundamental sense morally superior to the person who uncritically adopts the racism espoused by his boss in order to obtain raises and promotions? If so, why? (2) Do you believe that a person who acquired his knowledge of physics by means of an uncritical process of memorization is more likely to feel threatened by a physics heretic--e.g., by a proponent of "cold fusion"--than a person who accepted only those portions of what he was taught that he could verify? (3) Do you believe that, if the answer to (2) is yes, that explains many of the vicious attacks which have been leveled at cold fusions researchers? (4) If the answers to (2) and (3) are both yes, then am I really being so terribly unreasonable when I claim that failure to apply intense critical scrutiny to the statements of authority figures is evil? Is the mental process which leads a person to launch blatantly unfair, slanderous attacks against honest researchers not an instance of evil? And, more generally, is there a single instance of man's inhumanity to man which did not arise because the perpetrator exempted what he wanted to believe from criticism? Anybody? --MJ}*** > >Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 17:52:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27026; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:50:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:50:50 -0800 Message-ID: <387814DD.3E11 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 20:55:57 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: What's New for Jan 07, 2000 References: <200001081826.NAA23478 fh105.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CcDCG3.0.8c6.wb-Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > Actually, wasn't "Oak" the name of the scientist in "Independence Day" > > played by Brent Spiner? > > Nah, it was pronounced "Okun", not sure how it was spelled. And I knew it > couldn't be Park...Park ain't kindly from what I have heard. At least not > to anything that goes against preconceived theoretical notions. Ah! Then, by Okum's Razor, we'll assume Data is the source for now. :-) BTW, for you West Coastie's, my brother is playing in Les Miz in LA right now. He's only in the Chorus; but, he understudies Javert for some matinées. I can get ya house tickets, if available -- you still have to pay; but, they're the best seats. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 18:09:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA01765; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:08:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:08:05 -0800 Message-ID: <20000109020801.19789.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:08:01 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Fwd: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"puSnl.0.VR.4s-Tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > Or... per the suggestion by George Holz, go for a temperature > constant... hmm, I wonder if I could cobble up a temperature controller > that > could vary the AC input to the power supply (it draws about 2 amperes from > the mains at the power levels I am using) (5 amps at full power) by > use of some unknown to me, solid state AC controller, or... a servo > motor attached to the variac shaft? ( Shades of Rube Goldberg ! ) > Thermal response would not be a problem. Could use a thermocouple > mounted against the tube for fast response. > > Building a servo controller though....not sure if I could, hell of a job. > Any of those around? A unit that will continuously vary 120 VAC > mains voltage in response to a thermocouple input. > Have to be a thermocouple though as the temperature could get > up to 800º C and a thermistor wouldn't hack it. I recommend against trying to build or use a temperature controller. I have used a commercial proportional controller that compares a thermistor input signal against a set point temperature and adjusts power to a load by means of a triac. It works in some systems, but because of the lag of the temperature response after a change of heating power, the feedback can easily go unstable. The feedback overcorrects because of the lag, and so the temperature oscillates a lot. There are more sophisticated controllers, usually called PID controllers. "P" is ordinary proportional feedback. "D" is derivative feedback, which is what you would need in your system. It senses the rate of change, which is predictive of where temperature will be in the near future if the system is well behaved, and it adjusts the feedback accordingly. "I" is integral feedback. It sums the temperature error over a long time (integrates) to amplify small errors. Integral feedback can hold the average temperature more precisely, if all the main feedback is working properly and if there are no drifts in the temperature sensor itself or elsewhere in the electronics. I think you are better off to find a way to read your DC power and keep it as constant as you can. I would guess that, after the discharge tube has warmed up to its final temperature, so that K vapor pressure and gas composition have reached steady state, your RC-filtered discharge voltage is pretty steady. If so, then you might not have to calculate power, but you can get away by just adjusting the variac to hold the DC current constant. Of course, if the voltage does begin to drift a lot, then this scheme will not work. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 23:50:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA12463; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:49:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:49:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 01:50:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: relativity teaser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"L3OEk2.0.f23.ds3Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 02:07:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA28876; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 02:02:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 02:02:38 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 00:02:32 -1000 Subject: Re: relativity teaser From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d8xxg1.0.637.-o5Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott - You'd think so, huh? Velocity of light would be lower in water than air above, so I'm thinking of a sort of induced diffraction, because the water's atoms see the vertical photons passing through them at a now non-vertical angle, like raindrops on your face as you ride your motorcycle in the rain. That would kick the beam in the direction of v. But I don't know how the heck it would really work. I consider myself teased, relatively speaking. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI on 1/8/00 9:50 PM, Scott Little at little eden.com wrote: > A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly > perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally > at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? > > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 06:19:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28064; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:18:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:18:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000109091624.007cfac0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:16:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fjgLY2.0.Qs6.tY9Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:15 PM 1/6/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 10:36 PM 1/6/00 -0500, Colin Quinney wrote: >>"The craft Mills imagines would be made of hydrino compounds and powered by >>hydrino engines and batteries. There would be pods containing intersecting >>helium and electron beams under a negatively charged plate. The electrons >>in the beam would be deformed in such a way that they would oppose gravity >>and push up against that electric field of the negative plate, Mills >>theorizes. Anything attached to the plate would also experience lift." >> >>Can anyone please explain this? > >I can only speculate that Mills is planning to use the classical EM >prediction that a charged dipole will self-accelerate and thus, if oriented >correctly, act against gravity. .... >"Sometimes in physics, if you really probe into the underlying details of >something you find out that we don't understand it at all." > Scott R. Little EarthTech International Is that speculation based upon his book, or your own precise calculations or remote viewing? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 06:20:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28031; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:18:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:18:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000109091610.007d0a00 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:16:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion In-Reply-To: <3872597A.2E452E76 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MctFU.0.rr6.nY9Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:35 PM 1/4/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >To All: >I would like to comment on the exchange noted >below. > >Over the years, Dick Blue, Rich Murray and others >have argued that the phenomenon called cold fusion >is unreal. For many years, these arguments were >rational and reasonable. Now, after over 10 years >of work by hundreds of scientists in over a dozen >countries, the arguments are wearing thin. >Hundreds of examples of excess energy, many >examples of anomalous nuclear products and several >replications of a relationship between energy and >helium production all should cause an open-minded >person to stop and ask just what is going on >here. Of course, many failed attempts to >duplicate these effects have been reported. This >mixture of positive and negative results produces >a conflict in many minds which is resolved in two >ways. Some people, such as Dick Blue, conclude >that the negative results prove the claims can not >be duplicated, hence are not real. This attitude >is supported by no acceptable explanation for the >positive results being available. On the other >hand, other people accept the positive results and >conclude that failure to replicate is caused by >failure to truly duplicate conditions present >during the positive experiments. An explanation is >not considered to be important at this stage of >the game. Normally, science functions by taking a >mixed approach with some work being rejected for >good reason and some accepted when it is well >done. Unfortunately, this is not the way the game >is played by many people in science these days, in >this field as well as in other fields. The "stage of the game", that is, level of science and engineering is beyond that cited above. Organizing the observations, and including all results, appears to produce in CD/LENR systems a parallax view which may explain some of the apparent lack of reproducibility. Input power is a major variable consistent with its role in electrical engineering, power engineering, antenna theory, and mechanical engineering. "The optimum operating point (OOP) is the point of maximum product generation (watts or moles of He-4) or power gain as a function of electrical input power. OOPs are shown to be observed for several low energy nuclear systems comprised of palladium-heavy water, codepositional-heavy water, palladium-black-D2 gas, and nickel-light water plated systems. Optimal operating point behavior is important because of the insight provided. There is only a narrow locus of functional and useful operating points, and therefore OOPs show how to improve system operation and replication rates, as well as explain some of the difficulties in observing the phenomena. ... With diverse products there can be diverse and separate optimal operating point manifolds for each product. Loading can produce 'maturing' of the optimal operating point manifold. Material breakdown, which can be catastrophic, can collapse the peak." [Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999)] Hope that clarifies. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 06:21:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA29439; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:20:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:20:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000109091645.007b98f0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:16:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000107112706.0079e9c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000107091018.01df1620 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000107085005.007a66e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KlFeu1.0.vB7.Ya9Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:27 AM 1/7/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I came in the middle of this discussion, so I do not quite follow what >Scott Little is referring to here. He wrote: > >>Despite McKubre's support of your hypothesis, I still don't buy it. In >>order for the exiting calorimeter water to become measurably hotter than >>the inlet water, there has to be an object inside the cell that is hotter >>than the exiting water. > >Yes, of course. The cathode is always hotter than anything else in the >cell. This is true during ordinary electrolysis, when there is no excess >heat. This is untrue based on measurements of solution and both electrodes during various locations under, and outside, of the optimal operating point (OOP). [Swartz. M., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) Swartz. M., "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes", IECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009 (1997); with other refs at http://world.std.com/~mica/jetrefs.html ] ==================================== >Ithought the question here is: Does the cathode temperature go up when CF >excess heat begins? The answer is no, not necessarily. That is a function >of the calorimetric method and the physics of heat transfer from cathode to >water. Yes it does, and the major source of heat becomes the cathode. This is in the literature for those who read it. ==================================== >If something in there >>is producing sufficient heat to make the exit water detectably hotter then >>I expect a temperature probe placed ANYWHERE inside the cell to register a >>detectable temperature RISE when the object starts generating this heat. There are issues of causality, loss, other noise, ... ==================================== >When CF heat turns on, the cathode may grow cooler in the spot the >temperature sensor touches, while it grows hotter in other nuclear-active >spots. The persistent 1 to 2 deg C temperature differences across Szpak's >cathode are much larger than I would have expected. I thought they would be >in the hundreds of a degree. This was shown on the cover of the Cold Fusion Times and described further there [ http://world.std.com/~mica/cft61.gif ] and in his papers previously, [http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html ] sorry not updated ;-( and are correlated with very low level very low energy ionizing radiation and commensurate helium production. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 06:22:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30546; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:21:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:21:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000109091716.007d3860 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:17:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Flow calorimetry problems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991222152622.0179e138 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19991222124049.02b14e70 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991222084302.017a1154 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991222064742.007c3870 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991221224754.006ccbb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221200445.007ba790 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991221183256.006cf824 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221172155.00d24ac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991221150810.017acf68 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221144335.014c0250 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221105151.0079c830 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.19991220172309.007d2450 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.19991220162057.007ad860 pop.mindspring.com> <199912202108.OAA27693 smtp.asu.edu> <3.0.6.32.19991220011526.00879370 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991219232448.006b3da0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991219071204.007cfac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991219003353.006ca214 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991218230006.007c5100 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991218204805.006bdee8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"t5Kby1.0.CT7.Sb9Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:26 PM 12/22/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 12:40 PM 12/22/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> So here it is: >> click here: >> http://world.std.com/~mica/little8a.gif >> >> This is not a certification of your experiment OR >>any statment on the quality or results of your work, but >>an indication that there MIGHT be an OOP. >> >> [And if you diss the data, Scott, remember YOU took it. >>And if you purport the errors exceed the range, perhaps >>and then you should post them, and improve them. I look >>forward to seeing them.] > >Indeed that is the case. I have stated many times that the typical error >in my VWFC is about +/-2% relative. Also, you chose the uncorrected Pout >values for the plot. When the corrected values are used, the pattern, >insignificant as it is, disappears. I have prepared at graph which depicts >these facts at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/ms/oops.html The data which I plotted came from your Table in your URL, and used all 6 intervals which you gave. Since the data which I plotted came from YOUR Tables "ave Pout" and "avg Pin" exactly which -- or both -- of those numbers was incorrect, and please include the derivations. Thanks. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 06:59:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08198; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:57:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 06:57:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000109095334.00869700 post.queensu.ca> X-Sender: simonb post.queensu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:53:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Bart Simon Subject: Question about Alfred Coehn In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000104154501.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3872597A.2E452E76 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0lx2H.0.y_1.i7AUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi everyone, I hope nobody minds if I poke my head back in here. Its been ages, but I haven't quit lurking in Vortex and following the discussion when I can. After a brief stint working on a new project (the history of satellite communications in Indonesia and its relationship to the New Order State) I am returning to my work on the sociology of cold fusion. Right now I am working on a paper on the role of the media in the first weeks of the controversy mostly in an effort to engage, critique and extend the perspectives of some of my colleagues. I have a draft of the paper ready if any of you would be interested in reading it (just e-mail me). Anyway, one of the myths I want to dispel has to do with the relationship between Fleischmann and Pons' early work and the Paneth and Peters/Tandberg work in the 1920s. This connection was made in a letter Nature early on in the controversy and used by skeptics to undermine the credibility of the FP's claims (since Paneth and Peters eventually retracted their claims). Needless to say I have found no direct connection between Fleischmann's work and this other work and so I want to write a little about Fleischmann's cited precedent - Alfred Coehn. As I understand it Coehn's work is connected to Fleischmann's occassional discussions of the "gamma phase" of deuterated palladium and the issue of electrodiffusion. Does anybody on this list know more about Coehn's work at all? Can anybody give me any details about who this guy was and what his relative importance in the history of eletrochemistry/materials science might be? Also, can anybody think of other important 'actual' precedents for FP's work that I should talk about? Thanks for your help. cheers, Bart ===================================================== Bart Simon simonb post.queensu.ca Asst. Professor http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb Dept. of Sociology Queen's University Kingston, Ontario phone: 613-533-6000 x77152 K7L-3N6 fax: 613-533-2871 ===================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 07:43:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA19343; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 07:41:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 07:41:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3878AA41.1567F08F austininstruments.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:33:21 -0600 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5HBe22.0.9k4.amAUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly > perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally > at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? --- Since the ray of light would be normal to the surface of the water at any point on the surface of the water, I think not. I suspect that if the water were to be replaced by a sheet of glass with precisely parallel surfaces and the ray of light were to enter normal to one surface it would exit normal to the other surface but be displaced axially with respect to the point of entry due to the movement of the sheet of glass. On the other hand, if the photons in the ray of light were to be "bumped" by particles moving relative to the ray of light because of the movement of the sheet of glass I suppose they would not exit normal. On the third hand, if the sheet of glass were to remain stationary during the transition of the ray, collisions could still occur which would deflect the photons, but this would be a random process and would result in a "circle of confusion" being generated by the exiting photons. However, the photons exiting the moving sheet of glass would exhibit, perhaps, the pattern described by moving the circle of confusion along with the sheet of glass. --- John Fields Austin Instruments, Inc. El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas "I speak for the company" http://www.austininstruments.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 08:19:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25304; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:17:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:17:26 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3878C2F5.593D269D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 17:18:45 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"6HEy6.0.FB6.LIBUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott R. Little wrote: A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? Rick Monteverde wrote: You'd think so, huh? Velocity of light would be lower in water than air above, so I'm thinking of a sort of induced diffraction [refraction?], because the water's atoms see the vertical photons passing through them at a now non-vertical angle, like raindrops on your face as you ride your motorcycle in the rain. That would kick the beam in the direction of v. But I don't know how the heck it would really work. I consider myself teased, relatively speaking. Hi Scott and Rick, I can picture the situation with two rays of light. Consider the stationary situation: If this "beam" of light entered the surface of the water at an angle less than 90 deg., the ray on the "left" would reach the surface first. This ray travels a shorter distance than the ray on the "right" travels in air. When the right ray enters the water, the two rays "must be" moving parallel to each other because experiment shows that the beam is bent to the left. If the beam enters at 90 deg. to the water surface, both rays would be slowed equally and simultaneously, and the beam would not be bent. But I cannot imagine what happens to a beam consisting of only one ray of light, because, I guess, I cannot imagine a beam consisting of only one ray of light. Going back to the problem Scott proposes, and asking the question with regard to a beam consisting of two rays, the left ray and right ray enter the surface simultaneously. If the surface of the water is moving to the left, the outcome would seem to depend on whether or not the velocity of the light could be modified by the velocity of the water: c'= c + v. If so, c' would have a "left" component of velocity, wheras c only has a vertical component. I think this question has to be answered by experiment. Jack Smith PS: If I drop a stone into a tank of water moving to the left, I do know that the stone will hit the bottom of the tank to the left of where I opened my hand. One can imagine what happens if I drop a series of stones into a tank of water moving to the left. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 08:28:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27844; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:26:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:26:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3878B6FF.5EC95175 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:27:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question about Alfred Coehn References: <3872597A.2E452E76 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.3.32.20000109095334.00869700@post.queensu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FbPcw1.0.zo6.IRBUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Bert, I would be very interested in reading your paper about CF. As for Coehn, he showed that hydrogen dissolved in palladium could be moved by a current passing through a wire. This is a normal electromigration experiment which has been applied to many kinds of dissolved atoms within metals. The observation shows that dissolved hydrogen has a positive charge, similar to the behavior of other atoms which normally act as positive ions in solution. Fleischmann and the Italian school of CF have used this method to further concentrate hydrogen within wires during electrolysis. Whether the method as any merit is still an open question. It has no direct relationship to CF except as a technique to achieve a higher local deuterium content. As for the gamma phase, Preparata has proposed that deuterium in beta-PdD can reside in tetrahedral sites when the concentration is sufficiently high. Normally, octahedral sites are occupied. When this occurs, he calls the material a gamma phase. Two problems exist in this interpretation. No evidence exists in the literature to show that deuterium actually can occupy tetrahedral sites as a stable phase, and no evidence for a phase change exists within the beta phase in the composition range being explored, i.e. between PdD0.85 and 1.0. All of these issues are still only part of the rich collection of models and, as yet, have no reality. Regards, Ed Storms Bart Simon wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I hope nobody minds if I poke my head back in here. Its been ages, but I > haven't quit lurking in Vortex and following the discussion when I can. > After a brief stint working on a new project (the history of satellite > communications in Indonesia and its relationship to the New Order State) I > am returning to my work on the sociology of cold fusion. > > Right now I am working on a paper on the role of the media in the first > weeks of the controversy mostly in an effort to engage, critique and extend > the perspectives of some of my colleagues. I have a draft of the paper > ready if any of you would be interested in reading it (just e-mail me). > > Anyway, one of the myths I want to dispel has to do with the relationship > between Fleischmann and Pons' early work and the Paneth and Peters/Tandberg > work in the 1920s. This connection was made in a letter Nature early on in > the controversy and used by skeptics to undermine the credibility of the > FP's claims (since Paneth and Peters eventually retracted their claims). > Needless to say I have found no direct connection between Fleischmann's > work and this other work and so I want to write a little about > Fleischmann's cited precedent - Alfred Coehn. > > As I understand it Coehn's work is connected to Fleischmann's occassional > discussions of the "gamma phase" of deuterated palladium and the issue of > electrodiffusion. Does anybody on this list know more about Coehn's work > at all? Can anybody give me any details about who this guy was and what > his relative importance in the history of eletrochemistry/materials science > might be? Also, can anybody think of other important 'actual' precedents > for FP's work that I should talk about? > > Thanks for your help. > > cheers, > Bart > > ===================================================== > Bart Simon simonb post.queensu.ca > Asst. Professor http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb > Dept. of Sociology > Queen's University > Kingston, Ontario phone: 613-533-6000 x77152 > K7L-3N6 fax: 613-533-2871 > ===================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 09:45:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20904; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 09:44:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 09:44:01 -0800 From: BriggsRO aol.com Message-ID: <5c.5c1950d0.25aa22d5 aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:43:49 EST Subject: Re: relativity teaser To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"j5-4D.0.Y65.WZCUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/8/00 11:50:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: << A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? >> Hi Scott, It seems off hand that Michelson and Morley would say no. It would be a fun experiment. What's the answer? Bob Briggs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 09:57:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24853; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 09:55:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 09:55:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:49:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"i5KtX3.0.F46.hkCUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From a private message: >With your definition Evil might be the right thing to do. ***{Evil is not a behavior which a person performs in the external world; it is a pattern of thought which takes place in the mind. When we say that a person did an evil thing, we are saying (a) that the act was wrong (i.e., that it was not reasonable under the circumstances) and (b) that it did not arise due to a mistake, but rather due to a mental act of a very specific and definable type. In my view, evil is the process of selective thinking itself--i.e., the process of focusing on arguments that support what you want to believe while avoiding those which do not. Within the constraints of this definition, evil cannot ever "be the right thing to do," because it isn't an external manifestation of behavior per se. Consider an example. Suppose that a student has noticed that he can "earn 'A's" in all of his courses if he simply agrees with whatever his teachers say. Since he wants the A's, he therefore wants to agree with his teachers. Unfortunately, he also has noticed that if he thinks critically about their statements and researches alternate points-of-view, he will frequently find himself in disagreement with them. And if he expresses those disagreements in any way, either by explicitly arguing with his teachers, or by qualifying the comments he makes on exams, his grades suffer. Therefore, from the standpoint of "earning A's", any time spent criticizing what his teacher's say is wasted, and so he decides to deliberately avoid doing it. "In the future," he thinks to himself, "I will *not* think critical thoughts about what my teachers say, and I will *not* research alternate points of view. All it does is hurt my grades." Result: to the extent that what the teachers say to him happens to be true, he will acquire true beliefs; and to the extent that what they say is false, he will acquire false beliefs. Thus, to the extent he acts on what he has been taught, his decisions will sometimes be correct, and will sometimes be incorrect. And to the extent that those actions influence the well-being of others, they will sometimes cause inappropriate harm, and sometimes not. Therefore, we cannot say that every act committed by an evil man will be an evil act. But, then, nobody ever said that, as far as I am aware. I certainly never said it. The reason I define "evil" as "the process of avoiding lines of thought that undercut what one wants to believe" is straightforward: people who think in this way have deliberately removed the only internal safeguard which enables them to place limits on what they will do to others. Once they have done that, the only things preventing them from becoming monsters will be the accidents of time and circumstances. If, by chance, such a person falls into bad company, he will soon be saying and doing horrible things, because that will be useful in currying favor with the "significant others" with whom he finds himself associated. If, during World War I, he finds himself in the foxhole next to Adolf Hitler, he may become a Nazi; and if, during the time of the Spanish Inquisition, he finds himself in the pew next to the young Torquemada, he may one day find himself stretching heretics on the rack and burning out their eyes with red-hot irons. The point: it is only by retaining our sovereignty over our own minds, by refusing to be inert vessels into which "significant others" are free to pour their opinions, that we can safeguard ourselves against falling into patterns of wrongdoing. Of course, the world being what it is, situations vary enormously, with the result that the extent of wrongdoing by people who are evil (in my sense of the term) also varies enormously. Hence we have common sayings such as "There, but for the grace of God, go I," and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Such sayings, at root, are acknowledgements of the truth of what I am saying. One very interesting aspect of evil, so defined, is simply this: it progressively erodes, over time, the feelings of self-worth of the person who engages in it, and leaves, at the end of life, only feelings of self-loathing. Thus the person who habitually seeks material benefits by making his mind an inert vessel into which "significant others" are free to pour their opinions will find that his head fills up with a mulligan's stew of unresolved contradictions and absurdities, and that over time he will lose all sense of the intelligibility of the world and of his ability to function competently in it. Result: he becomes increasingly hostile to persons who refused to surrender their sovereignty over their own minds, because, by their behavior, they remind him that he did not have to do what he did--that his inner misery is the deserved consequence of his own actions. In *The Dogs of Capitalism* I referred to such people as "social reasoners." A very pertinent quote from that book (between the lines of asterisks) follows: ******************************************** "The social reasoner is a person who chose to surrender the creation of his personality to the thoughts, values, and judgments of others. Over a period of many years, he repeatedly chose to adopt beliefs and personality traits that he sensed were wrong, because he perceived them to be socially expedient. His fatal error lay in his failure to realize that each such act drained off a tiny portion of his self respect until, in the end, nothing remained but a feeling of self-loathing. Thus if he finally achieved the material success which he had sought, he discovered that he could not enjoy it. He discovered, instead, that he was miserable and unhappy." "While he does not understand, intellectually, what has happened to him, he nevertheless feels its emotional effects. He feels dead inside, and he feels an overpowering fear and hatred, welling up from deep within himself, whenever he encounters people who, psychologically, are alive. People who are self-assertive, people who reason and form their own opinions, people who argue, people who don't seem to care whether they fit in-he hates them all." "In other times and places, men like him, acting on feelings like his, had filled the world with bloodshed and slaughter. They did not merely hate people who were psychologically alive; they killed them. They stretched them on the rack; they burned out their eyes with red hot irons; they stripped the flesh from their still living bodies. ... " "The point is simple: the social reasoner feels a deep seated emotional need to see self-assertiveness beaten down. He hates those who had the courage to use their own minds and rely on their own judgments, and he wants to see them miserable and unhappy. Such experiences seem to justify the ease with which he allowed the castles of his own soul to be overrun. Every time he sees such persons beaten down, his inner pain is eased. Such sights suggest that, in truth, there was no other way, that his life-long policy of surrender and self-destruction was correct, that his own inner misery is, in fact, unavoidable." [*The Dogs of Capitalism*, pg. 295-296] ******************************************** Is there anyone in this group who cannot see the applicability of such reasoning as an explanation for the enormous hostility which many members of the scientific establishment have directed at CF researchers? And if each and every one of you can, in fact, see the connection, then how can anyone possibly argue that this thread is "off topic"? Could it be that the real reason some of you object to this thread is that my concept of evil hits a bit too close to home? (Nah. This is vortex, not sci.physics.fusion. We are all pure as the driven snow, right? :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 10:14:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23341; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:11:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:11:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000109131351.0169c850 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 13:13:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000109091624.007cfac0 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FV7ar2.0.Zi5.hzCUu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:16 AM 01/09/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Is that speculation based upon his book, or your own >precise calculations or remote viewing? > Remote viewing? I don't think Scott does that. You're probably thinking of Puthoff. I took a Sylva mind control course once, and they teach how to do that. It's fairly easy. How many pages of that Mills book are about gravity? I'm thinking maybe I'll have to trip down to the library :-) Colin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 11:06:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA27223; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:04:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:04:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <03f501bf5ad4$60db13c0$d6637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:04:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"PFOH-.0.Bf6.BlDUu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, you wrote: > > Is there anyone in this group who cannot see the applicability of such > reasoning as an explanation for the enormous hostility which many members > of the scientific establishment have directed at CF researchers? And if > each and every one of you can, in fact, see the connection, then how can > anyone possibly argue that this thread is "off topic"? Could it be that the > real reason some of you object to this thread is that my concept of evil > hits a bit too close to home? (Nah. This is vortex, not sci.physics.fusion. > We are all pure as the driven snow, right? :-) It seems to me that most scientists tend to place little weight on beliefs, perhaps failing to see that 'facts' are a subset of 'beliefs.' I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I cannot deny the relevance of morality to the outrages suffered by certain scientists in this field and can describe the motivation of mistreatment as evil. I think you make valid and simple points, maybe too simple. In my own too simple words, the only goodness that can occur, insofar as human behavior affects it, springs from individual minds, and the beliefs that form the foundation of those minds. Smiling politicians usually scare me. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 11:13:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17140; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:11:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:11:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:08:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: relativity teaser Resent-Message-ID: <"6EePG.0.hB4.lrDUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly >perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally >at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? ***{No. Assuming a flat surface, the effect of bending is due to the fact that when a line of photons moving parallel to one another --i.e., a wave front--is incident on the surface at an angle, they impact it at different times. Since those photons that enter the surface first move more slowly, those further down the line which have not yet entered move ahead of those that have, in proportion to the delay in their entry times. Result: the angle of the line changes, and we have refraction. If, however, the wave front is parallel to the surface, all the photons in it will enter the new medium at the same time, regardless of whether it is moving or not, and there should be no refraction. Any effect which the motion of the water has one one of them will apply simultaneously to all of them. Thus I see no way that they could cease to be parallel to the surface after they pass through it. Bottom line: while I doubt that Snell's law has been tested for this condition, I see no reason it would fail here. --MJ}*** > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 11:19:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20072; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:17:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:17:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000109131351.0169c850 inforamp.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000109091624.007cfac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:15:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"qY8BJ2.0.Xv4.XxDUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 09:16 AM 01/09/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> >> Is that speculation based upon his book, or your own >>precise calculations or remote viewing? >> > >Remote viewing? I don't think Scott does that. >You're probably thinking of Puthoff. I took a Sylva mind control course >once, and they teach how to do that. It's fairly easy. > >How many pages of that Mills book are about gravity? I'm thinking maybe >I'll have to trip down to the library :-) ***{Why not save yourself the trip and read the book by means of remote viewing? --MJ}*** > >Colin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 11:28:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28697; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:26:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:26:31 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Davis To: John Fields Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 11:25:31 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3878AA41.1567F08F austininstruments.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: relativity teaser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"OM8DZ2.0.E07.a3EUu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 09-Jan-00, John Fields, wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> >> A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly >> perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally >> at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? >--- >Since the ray of light would be normal to the surface of the >water at any point on the surface of the water, I think not. >I suspect that if the water were to be replaced by a sheet of >glass with precisely parallel surfaces and the ray of light were >to enter normal to one surface it would exit normal to the other >surface but be displaced axially with respect to the point of >entry due to the movement of the sheet of glass. >On the other hand, if the photons in the ray of light were to be >"bumped" by particles moving relative to the ray of light because >of the movement of the sheet of glass I suppose they would not >exit normal. >On the third hand, if the sheet of glass were to remain >stationary during the transition of the ray, collisions could >still occur which would deflect the photons, but this would be a >random process and would result in a "circle of confusion" being >generated by the exiting photons. >However, the photons exiting the moving sheet of glass would >exhibit, perhaps, the pattern described by moving the circle of >confusion along with the sheet of glass. >--- >John Fields Austin Instruments, Inc. >El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas >"I speak for the company" http://www.austininstruments.com I was just wondering if http://www.compu-web.com/ftl.htm is pertinent, in this discussion? -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.futurehealth.org/roshi.htm http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/ http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 12:05:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01965; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:01:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:01:43 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3878F77D.6C5A8BFD mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 21:02:53 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"XLeb23.0.dU.caEUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? Mitchell Jones writes: ***{No. Assuming a flat surface, the effect of bending is due to the fact that when a line of photons moving parallel to one another --i.e., a wave front-- ... Hi Mitchell, How is "a line of photons moving parallel to one another" "a wave front"? Perhaps Scott will clarify his question, but it appears to me that he is referring to the wave properties of light when he uses the word "ray". Mitchell Jones writes: If, however, the wave front is parallel to the surface, all the photons in it will enter the new medium at the same time, Jack writes: It's true that if I have four stones in a line and drop them into a moving tank of water at the same time, they will enter the surface at the same time. Mitchell Jones writes: Thus I see no way that they [photons] could cease to be parallel to the surface after they pass through it. Jack writes: I have four stones in a line and drop them into a moving tank of water at the same time: They will not enter the surface in the same places that they would enter if the tank were not moving, although they would still be "parallel to the surface." At any arbitray distance above the tank, the surface of the tank must move a distance delta-d in the time (delta-t) that the stones require to reach the surface, unless tine/velocity are quantized (: In addition, I don't think photons and stones can be compared to rays. I can imagine a beam of single photons, coming from a single source one after another; but I can't imagine a beam consisting of only one ray. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 14:11:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04476; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:08:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:08:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38790701.430282E8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 15:09:10 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XNwIr1.0.o51.QRGUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To all who are interested, I have been following the discussion of evil with a mixed feeling. On the one hand, I agree this is not a scientific discussion. On the other hand, the basic concept has been applied to people holding unpopular views in science. The word evil and the meaning generally given comes from religion, in particular the Christian religion. Other religions do not have this concept. For example, Buddhism calls such actions the result of unenlightened behavior, a much more useful concept. This being the case, I think a better word than “evil” might be more useful to express your disgust with certain behavior. I’m amazed at the variety of behavior and attitudes the two main participants in this discussion find disgusting. Clearly, no agreement is possible because this is a conflict in value systems which is impossible to resolve. That is why wars are fought. That is also why science avoids such subjects in its effort to resolve differences of opinion about nature. Once such discussions are defined in terms of “evil”, all hope for a resolution is lost. Therefore, for the sake of the worthwhile contributions you all can and have made to science, I suggest you keep your value system to yourselves. Ed Storms Mitchell Jones wrote: > >From a private message: > > >With your definition Evil might be the right thing to do. > > ***{Evil is not a behavior which a person performs in the external world; > it is a pattern of thought which takes place in the mind. When we say that > a person did an evil thing, we are saying (a) that the act was wrong (i.e., > that it was not reasonable under the circumstances) and (b) that it did not > arise due to a mistake, but rather due to a mental act of a very specific > and definable type. In my view, evil is the process of selective thinking > itself--i.e., the process of focusing on arguments that support what you > want to believe while avoiding those which do not. Within the constraints > of this definition, evil cannot ever "be the right thing to do," because it > isn't an external manifestation of behavior per se. > > Consider an example. Suppose that a student has noticed that he can "earn > 'A's" in all of his courses if he simply agrees with whatever his teachers > say. Since he wants the A's, he therefore wants to agree with his teachers. > Unfortunately, he also has noticed that if he thinks critically about their > statements and researches alternate points-of-view, he will frequently find > himself in disagreement with them. And if he expresses those disagreements > in any way, either by explicitly arguing with his teachers, or by > qualifying the comments he makes on exams, his grades suffer. Therefore, > from the standpoint of "earning A's", any time spent criticizing what his > teacher's say is wasted, and so he decides to deliberately avoid doing it. > "In the future," he thinks to himself, "I will *not* think critical > thoughts about what my teachers say, and I will *not* research alternate > points of view. All it does is hurt my grades." > > Result: to the extent that what the teachers say to him happens to be true, > he will acquire true beliefs; and to the extent that what they say is > false, he will acquire false beliefs. Thus, to the extent he acts on what > he has been taught, his decisions will sometimes be correct, and will > sometimes be incorrect. And to the extent that those actions influence the > well-being of others, they will sometimes cause inappropriate harm, and > sometimes not. Therefore, we cannot say that every act committed by an evil > man will be an evil act. But, then, nobody ever said that, as far as I am > aware. I certainly never said it. > > The reason I define "evil" as "the process of avoiding lines of thought > that undercut what one wants to believe" is straightforward: people who > think in this way have deliberately removed the only internal safeguard > which enables them to place limits on what they will do to others. Once > they have done that, the only things preventing them from becoming monsters > will be the accidents of time and circumstances. If, by chance, such a > person falls into bad company, he will soon be saying and doing horrible > things, because that will be useful in currying favor with the "significant > others" with whom he finds himself associated. If, during World War I, he > finds himself in the foxhole next to Adolf Hitler, he may become a Nazi; > and if, during the time of the Spanish Inquisition, he finds himself in the > pew next to the young Torquemada, he may one day find himself stretching > heretics on the rack and burning out their eyes with red-hot irons. The > point: it is only by retaining our sovereignty over our own minds, by > refusing to be inert vessels into which "significant others" are free to > pour their opinions, that we can safeguard ourselves against falling into > patterns of wrongdoing. Of course, the world being what it is, situations > vary enormously, with the result that the extent of wrongdoing by people > who are evil (in my sense of the term) also varies enormously. Hence we > have common sayings such as "There, but for the grace of God, go I," and > "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Such sayings, at root, > are acknowledgements of the truth of what I am saying. > > One very interesting aspect of evil, so defined, is simply this: it > progressively erodes, over time, the feelings of self-worth of the person > who engages in it, and leaves, at the end of life, only feelings of > self-loathing. Thus the person who habitually seeks material benefits by > making his mind an inert vessel into which "significant others" are free to > pour their opinions will find that his head fills up with a mulligan's stew > of unresolved contradictions and absurdities, and that over time he will > lose all sense of the intelligibility of the world and of his ability to > function competently in it. Result: he becomes increasingly hostile to > persons who refused to surrender their sovereignty over their own minds, > because, by their behavior, they remind him that he did not have to do what > he did--that his inner misery is the deserved consequence of his own > actions. In *The Dogs of Capitalism* I referred to such people as "social > reasoners." A very pertinent quote from that book (between the lines of > asterisks) follows: > > ******************************************** > "The social reasoner is a person who chose to surrender the creation of his > personality to the thoughts, values, and judgments of others. Over a period > of many years, he repeatedly chose to adopt beliefs and personality traits > that he sensed were wrong, because he perceived them to be socially > expedient. His fatal error lay in his failure to realize that each such act > drained off a tiny portion of his self respect until, in the end, nothing > remained but a feeling of self-loathing. Thus if he finally achieved the > material success which he had sought, he discovered that he could not enjoy > it. He discovered, instead, that he was miserable and unhappy." > > "While he does not understand, intellectually, what has happened to him, he > nevertheless feels its emotional effects. He feels dead inside, and he > feels an overpowering fear and hatred, welling up from deep within himself, > whenever he encounters people who, psychologically, are alive. People who > are self-assertive, people who reason and form their own opinions, people > who argue, people who don't seem to care whether they fit in-he hates them > all." > > "In other times and places, men like him, acting on feelings like his, had > filled the world with bloodshed and slaughter. They did not merely hate > people who were psychologically alive; they killed them. They stretched > them on the rack; they burned out their eyes with red hot irons; they > stripped the flesh from their still living bodies. ... " > > "The point is simple: the social reasoner feels a deep seated emotional > need to see self-assertiveness beaten down. He hates those who had the > courage to use their own minds and rely on their own judgments, and he > wants to see them miserable and unhappy. Such experiences seem to justify > the ease with which he allowed the castles of his own soul to be overrun. > Every time he sees such persons beaten down, his inner pain is eased. Such > sights suggest that, in truth, there was no other way, that his life-long > policy of surrender and self-destruction was correct, that his own inner > misery is, in fact, unavoidable." [*The Dogs of Capitalism*, pg. 295-296] > ******************************************** > > Is there anyone in this group who cannot see the applicability of such > reasoning as an explanation for the enormous hostility which many members > of the scientific establishment have directed at CF researchers? And if > each and every one of you can, in fact, see the connection, then how can > anyone possibly argue that this thread is "off topic"? Could it be that the > real reason some of you object to this thread is that my concept of evil > hits a bit too close to home? (Nah. This is vortex, not sci.physics.fusion. > We are all pure as the driven snow, right? :-) > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 14:49:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14494; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:48:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:48:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000109175016.013fca80 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 17:50:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000109131351.0169c850 inforamp.net> <3.0.6.32.20000109091624.007cfac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AzRir.0.OY3.n0HUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:15 PM 01/09/00 -0600, you wrote: >>Remote viewing? I don't think Scott does that. >>You're probably thinking of Puthoff. I took a Sylva mind control course >>once, and they teach how to do that. It's fairly easy. >> >>How many pages of that Mills book are about gravity? I'm thinking maybe >>I'll have to trip down to the library :-) > >***{Why not save yourself the trip and read the book by means of remote >viewing? --MJ}*** :-) Good point, (and quite humorous,) but I didn't say I was good at it, just that the technique is fairly simple. For instance, I see you sitting at a desk.. uh.. in front of a computer monitor :-) There are folks who seriously devote their lives to this sort of thing but I somehow doubt that even the best of them could read print. I think the CIA used to investigate this in the 1970's with certain people who were deemed fairly proficient at it, but what developed from that, or if it was dropped or went underground, I don't know. Puthoff's name comes to mind, but I think he was really a primary investigator of the phenomena due to his credentialed interest in new physical phenomena, and not one of the frequent fliers. I don't think much useful information develops statistically when one person is doing it but when a group is doing it, I would guess that they might confirm each other, especially when they are kept separate. The rate of success by now should probably be quite high, if the CIA has been staying with the program. :-) So what is Mills' gravity theory as you see it? Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 15:08:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19201; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:06:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:06:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3878F77D.6C5A8BFD mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:52:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: relativity teaser Resent-Message-ID: <"XYapc1.0.xh4.FIHUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott Little wrote: > >A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly >perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving >horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it >enters the water? > >Mitchell Jones writes: > >***{No. Assuming a flat surface, the effect of bending >is due to the fact that when a line of photons moving >parallel to one another --i.e., a wave front-- ... > >Hi Mitchell, > >How is "a line of photons moving parallel to one another" >"a wave front"? > >Perhaps Scott will clarify his question, but it appears to >me that he is referring to the wave properties of light when >he uses the word "ray". > >Mitchell Jones writes: > >If, however, the wave front is parallel to the surface, all >the photons in it will enter the new medium at the same time, > >Jack writes: > >It's true that if I have four stones in a line and drop them >into a moving tank of water at the same time, they will enter >the surface at the same time. > >Mitchell Jones writes: > >Thus I see no way that they [photons] could cease >to be parallel to the surface after they pass through it. > >Jack writes: > >I have four stones in a line and drop them >into a moving tank of water at the same time: They will >not enter the surface in the same places that they would enter >if the tank were not moving, although they would still be >"parallel to the surface." At any arbitray distance above the >tank, the surface of the tank must move a distance delta-d >in the time (delta-t) that the stones require to reach the >surface, unless tine/velocity are quantized (: > >In addition, I don't think photons and stones can be >compared to rays. I can imagine a beam of single photons, >coming from a single source one after another; but I can't >imagine a beam consisting of only one ray. > >Jack Smith ***{Perhaps this is a dispute about definitions. My understanding has always been that refraction does not occur unless the direction of a wavefront is altered. Since this type of experiment would not alter wavefront direction, I concluded that refraction would not occur. But since you seem to be talking about the direction taken by a succession of wavefronts (a beam), I looked the term up. Here is what I found: "Refraction -- The change in direction suffered by a wavefront as it passes obliquely from one medium to another in which its speed of propagation is altered." [*A Concise Dictionary of Physics*, Market House Books, 1990, pg. 237.] Thus, as I indicated earlier, there is no refraction in this example, which is exactly what Snell's law indicates. If, however, we are interested in the direction taken by a *beam*--i.e., a succession of wavefronts--under these conditions, that is quite another matter. Each wavefront will remain parallel to the surface after it enters the water, but it will also be displaced slightly to the right of the previous wavefront if, say, the surface of the water is moving rapidly to the left. Result: if the water is moving to the left rapidly enough, the *nonrefracted beam* will angle to the left as it passes down through the moving water (or sheet of glass), and will emerge from the bottom at a point displaced to the left of where it entered. It will, however, emerge from the bottom moving perpendicular to the water (or sheet of moving glass) just as surely as it was perpendicular to it when it entered. Note very explicitly that there is no change in the direction of any of the wavefronts, despite the fact that each successive wavefront enters the moving medium displaced a bit to the right of the previous one, due to the effects of the movement itself. Thus Snell's law is not violated by the altered direction of the beam as it passes through the moving medium, because Snell's law is not concerned with the direction of a beam, but with the direction taken by the individual wavefronts within the beam. [Snell's law states that the sine of the angle of incidence (of a wavefront) divided by the sine of the angle of refractrion (of a wavefront) is equal to a constant (which is called the index of refraction).} --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 18:03:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28510; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:34:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:34:32 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38793761.4A15D018 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 01:35:29 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"8Xlyg3.0.Oz6.OaIUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? Mitchell Jones wrote: ... If, however, we are interested in the direction taken by a *beam*--i.e., a succession of wavefronts ... Each wavefront will remain parallel to the surface after it enters the water, but it will also be displaced slightly to the right of the previous wavefront if, say, the surface of the water is moving rapidly to the left. Result: if the water is moving to the left rapidly enough, the *nonrefracted beam* will angle to the left as it passes down through the moving water (or sheet of glass), and will emerge from the bottom at a point displaced to the left of where it entered. Hi Mitchell, Does this mean that c' = v + c ? Mitchell Jones wrote: It [the beam] will, however, emerge from the bottom moving perpendicular to the water ... Jack writes: How about water moving horizontally with velocity v in a stationary transparent trough? This would be an easier experiment to do. Would this be the same situation that Scott has proposed? We should be able to measure the horizontal distance between the light source and the beam of light emerging from the bottom of the trough. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 20:01:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26458; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:58:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:58:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000109214415.007a4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 21:44:15 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Placebos in N.Y. Times Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"W0mfD2.0.DT6.9ZLUu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Today's Sunday New York Times magazine has a good article about placebos, a fascinating subject. An article on the same subject in Sci. Am. included better, more practical advice for the physician, I thought. It is common knowledge that placebos ameliorate the symptoms of disease, and in some cases they actually cure disease, as measured by objective diagnostic standards. Of course patients do get better on their own. The fact that placebos work better than nothing (no treatment, no visit to the doctor) makes it difficult to run a blind or double-blind test of a new drug. You have no standard to compare results to; everything works. A similar phenomenon became famous 1930s in a test of lighting at a GE fabrication plant. When the experts came in and adjusted lighting and gathered statistics, worker productivity and job satisfaction always improved, whether they made the lights brighter or dimmer, of fiddled with the wavelengths, or did nothing at all. The workers felt better and worked harder because they felt pleased to be the object of high-level attention. (It was *not* because they felt frighted that someone was monitoring them -- that does not help productivity for long.) We seem to have a similar "no blanks" "everything works" problem in CF nowadays. Ohmori showed that Au cells produce heat. (This has not been replicated as far as I know.) Recent preliminary evidence suggests even Pt in light water may produce heat in some circumstances. Since Pt-H is considered the most reliable "blank" cell, if this result is confirmed it will make many people uncomfortable. I will begin to wonder whether every metal electrolysis can produce CF, and if there is any such thing as a blank. You wonder why people never noticed. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 20:11:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17128; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:09:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:09:34 -0800 Message-ID: <38793E29.8FDF178F verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:04:25 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Mwbjz.0.5B4.xjLUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly > perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally > at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water? > It would bend, IMO. Seen from the frame of moving water, light should enter with an angle of arctan(v/c). as it is not normal anymore, it would bend further due indices differences. This event when mapped back to air frame, not be nullified, and the bending should be observed. if you ask exact math. I should look to the book. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 20:33:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25553; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:32:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:32:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38790701.430282E8 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:27:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA25527 Resent-Message-ID: <"fNZ8J.0.BF6.43MUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To all who are interested, > >I have been following the discussion of evil with a mixed feeling. On the one >hand, I agree this is not a scientific discussion. ***{This discussion, or at least my side of it, is an attempt to shed light on the reasons why anomalous science, including CF, evokes enormous hostility in the mainstream scientific community. It is a subject that has been discussed in this group for years--including lengthy comments by you, as a matter of fact--and it is unarguably on topic here. Whether it meets your definition of a "scientific" discussion is quite beside the point. --Mitchell Jones}*** On the other hand, the >basic concept has been applied to people holding unpopular views in science. ***{The concept I am using applies only to people who seek material benefits by permitting "significant others" to transfer opinions into their skulls. Sometimes the transferred opinions could be described as "unpopular views in science," and sometimes not. For example, there are many people whose "significant others" are religious fundamentalists, and, as a result, they often permit themselves to be programmed to believe that biological evolution is false. But there is no consistent link relating evil to the popularity or unpopularity of the views that are acquired. For example, during their undergraduate years the "significant others" of many contemporary physicists included biology professors, and, to gain A's in their classes, many permitted themselves to be programmed to believe that evolution is true. In both of these examples, from my perspective, the processes by which the beliefs were acquired were evil, because it is a fundamental abandonment of moral responsibility to permit anyone to treat your mind as an inert vessel into which he can pour any opinion that he pleases. It doesn't matter whether, in a particular case, the opinion is true or false. What does matter is that if the opinion is accepted *uncritically*, with no attempt to ferret out contradictory information, then the individual is potentially open to anything, including things that are not merely wrong, but horrific. There is literally no limit to the depths to which a person can sink, once he gets in the habit of pursuing material benefits by letting other people program his brain. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >The word evil and the meaning generally given comes from religion, in >particular the Christian religion. Other religions do not have this concept. >For example, Buddhism calls such actions the result of unenlightened behavior, >a much more useful concept. This being the case, I think a better word than >“evil” might be more useful to express your disgust with certain behavior. ***{Ed, I believe that the most appropriate term to use is "evil," but you can use any term to denote this concept that you like. What matters here is not so much what we call it as that we recognize that behavior arising from these types of motivations is real, and very widespread, and that it is the source of a major part of the hatred that has been directed against scientists who have made anomalous claims. --MJ}*** > >I’m amazed at the variety of behavior and attitudes the two main participants >in this discussion find disgusting. Clearly, no agreement is possible because >this is a conflict in value systems which is impossible to resolve. ***{If you are saying that disputes about values, by their nature, do not permit of a reasoned outcome, then I strongly disagree. In my view, some values are objective, and when an argument about values involves a person who bases his arguments on such values, it becomes possible to reach a reasoned conclusion. Nothing, of course, forces the losing party to admit that he is wrong, but that is quite a separate question from the issue of whether a reasoned conclusion can be reached. --MJ}*** That is >why wars are fought. ***(Wars are fought because most of the people on this planet are in the habit of uncritically adopting beliefs in order to fit in. People who refuse to be programmed by others do not beat the drums for war, because the destructiveness of war is easily apparent to anyone who thinks critically about it. Such people endorse war only in response to aggression, and then only as a last resort. --MJ}*** That is also why science avoids such subjects in its >effort to resolve differences of opinion about nature. ***{Science does not avoid such subjects at all, if by "avoid" you mean that discussions between scientists are objective, level headed, substantive, and motivated by a dispassionate search for the truth. In point of fact vast numbers of discussions between "scientists" involve participants who are motivated by *pure evil*, as you may verify for yourself by checking out the internet cesspool known as sci.physics.fusion, where any attempt at a reasoned discussion is derailed by people who are motivated by hatred of anyone who exhibits a willingness to question the paradigms of establishment physics. Worse, behavior in that group is representative of the reaction of the mainstream physics community to anomalous research. --MJ}*** Once such discussions >are defined in terms of "evil", all hope for a resolution is lost. ***{Not at all. It is possible to reach a reasoned conclusion by demolishing irrational arguments, even when the discussion is concerned with moral values, if one of the participants in a discussion bases his arguments on moral values. Persuading the person whose arguments have been demolished to admit that he is wrong, or even to stop beating his gums, is of course quite another matter. However, the latter problem afflicts *all* discussions, including even those which you would grant are "scientific." It is simply a fact that most arguments end with one of the participants lapsing into silence, and it is frequently the one who is correct who does that, for no better reason than that he is tired of demolishing the same tired statements over and over again. --MJ}*** >Therefore, for the sake of the worthwhile contributions you all can and have >made to science, I suggest you keep your value system to yourselves. ***{How do you keep the hatred which evil men feel for innovators out of scientific discussions, Ed? Merely saying that such behavior is motivated by value systems and that people should keep their value systems out of scientific discussions will not do it. The only way to deal with people who spew their hatred by introducing pejoratives into discussions is to develop a toolbox of techniques for dealing with them. And the only way to do that is to understand what they are, and, in particular, to understand the character flaws which motivate their misbehavior. If you do that, then you place yourself in a position to actually *enjoy* interacting with them, because it becomes child's play to slap them down. That way, you exit the arena only when you become bored, rather than because they put up such a stench that they drove you out. --MJ}*** > >Ed Storms [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 21:02:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07437; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 21:00:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 21:00:30 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: seismologists? Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:54:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA07401 Resent-Message-ID: <"juReT2.0.6q1.kTMUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, If there are any on the list, could you tell me if there is a noticeable 92 minute long term periodicity in the seismic background? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 22:08:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA01362; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:07:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:07:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 00:07:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: relativity teaser In-Reply-To: <38793E29.8FDF178F verisoft.com.tr> References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FsSWN1.0.7L.5SNUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:04 AM 1/10/00 +0200, hamdi ucar wrote: >It would bend, IMO. >Seen from the frame of moving water, light should enter with an angle of >actan(v/c). as it is not normal anymore, it would bend further due indices >differences. This event when mapped back to air frame, not be nullified, and the >bending should be observed. Good thinking, Hamdi. The light (ray, beam, stream of photons or whatever) IS indeed refracted by the water for the reason you state. From the water's frame, the incident light is aberrated just as starlight is aberrated due primarily to Earth's orbital velocity. The aberration effect is commonly observed as Rick indicated "like raindrops on your face as you ride your motorcycle in the rain." For v< In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000109175016.013fca80 inforamp.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20000109131351.0169c850 inforamp.net> <3.0.6.32.20000109091624.007cfac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 00:33:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? Resent-Message-ID: <"IIVwP1.0.Vd2.1vNUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 01:15 PM 01/09/00 -0600, you wrote: >>>Remote viewing? I don't think Scott does that. >>>You're probably thinking of Puthoff. I took a Sylva mind control course >>>once, and they teach how to do that. It's fairly easy. >>> >>>How many pages of that Mills book are about gravity? I'm thinking maybe >>>I'll have to trip down to the library :-) >> >>***{Why not save yourself the trip and read the book by means of remote >>viewing? --MJ}*** > >:-) Good point, (and quite humorous,) but I didn't say I was good at it, >just that the technique is fairly simple. For instance, I see you sitting >at a desk.. uh.. in front of a computer monitor :-) > >There are folks who seriously devote their lives to this sort of thing but >I somehow doubt that even the best of them could read print. I think the >CIA used to investigate this in the 1970's with certain people who were >deemed fairly proficient at it, but what developed from that, or if it was >dropped or went underground, I don't know. Puthoff's name comes to mind, >but I think he was really a primary investigator of the phenomena due to >his credentialed interest in new physical phenomena, and not one of the >frequent fliers. I don't think much useful information develops >statistically when one person is doing it but when a group is doing it, I >would guess that they might confirm each other, especially when they are >kept separate. The rate of success by now should probably be quite high, if >the CIA has been staying with the program. :-) ***{Many years ago, back in the 60's when I was in the military, I had an odd experience that caused me to do a lot of thinking about the subject of parapsychology. It was about 3 a.m. on a Saturday night, and while making my way back to my barrack, I decided to cut through another one that I had never been in before. (It was cold outside, so I chose to make as much of the trek back while indoors as I could.) The barracks were dormitory style rather than open bay, which means an enclosed hallway ran down the middle from one end to the other. On each side were doorways, each leading into a room where two servicemen lived. Because of the lateness of the hour, the hallway was darkened, and almost all of the doors to the rooms were closed. One door on the left was open, however, and a rectanglar swath of yellowish light from an incandescent bulb fell across the hall at that point. As I approached the door I could hear voices inside, and when I got close enough to make out words the first thing I heard was "... and I saw a mouse running along the baseboard." At that point a picture flashed into my mind of a mouse running along a baseboard, AND BEING IMPALED BY A DART. Then came the next sentence: "So I grabbed a dart out of the dartboard, threw it at the mouse, and killed him." At that point I was stunned, because I knew for a fact that the picture of the mouse being struck by the dart had flashed into my mind *before* the sentence conveying that information had been uttered. Result: I began to analyze the situation, in an attempt to decide whether it constituted proof of e.s.p. After a lot of reflection, I concluded that (a) I anticipate the next sentence in a conversation all the time; (b) my success at doing that depends on the amount of information I have available; (c) when I have a lot of information, I am highly accurate; (d) when I have very little information, I am very inaccurate, *but my accuracy is not zero*. Therefore, just by sheer luck, over the decades of ones life it is to be expected that, on occasion, one will anticipate correctly even in cases where there is virtually zero information available. Thus, in the absence of statistical information indicating that my accuracy in such situations was significantly higher than I could expect from chance, there was no reason whatever for me to conclude that I had e.s.p., despite the jarringly low probability of being able to anticipate what was about to be said in the situation just described. Bottom line: none of my personal experiences have supported any of the bizarre claims of parapsychology, and nothing I have read on the subject has convinced me either. Result: I simply don't believe any of it. --MJ}*** > >So what is Mills' gravity theory as you see it? ***{I have been considering posting something on that subject, but I probably won't get around to it for a few days. It is, without doubt, a very interesting and important topic. --MJ}*** > >Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 23:00:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16719; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:59:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:59:42 -0800 Message-ID: <20000110065940.12783.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:59:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Question about Alfred Coehn To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"z0UDI.0.554.TDOUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following references to A.Coehn are given by: H. Wipf, "Electro- and Thermotransport of Hydrogen in Metals," in "Hydrogen in Metals II," G. Alefeld and J. Volkl, eds. (Springer-Verlag: Berlin, Heidelberg, New York, 1978). A.Coehn, W.Specht, Z. Physik v.62, 1 (1930). A.Coehn, H.Jurgens, Z. Physik v.71, 179 (1931). A.Coehn, K. Sperling, Z. Physik v.83, 291 (1933). Although the Coehn references seem to be the earliest ones given, Wipf makes little reference to Coehn's work. On p. 287 he cites the three Coehn papers as examples of early experimental technique to measure the change of concentration of hydrogen in a metal brought about by an applied electric field (electromigration). On p. 293, in Table 7.1, a compendium of experimental results, Wipf again cites the Coehn papers, but he only lists the qualitative result, "positive," for the hydrogen species in Pd. The other entries in the Table for Pd are from later dates and give quantitative hydrogen and deuterium ion effective charge under various conditions. There is no other mention of Coehn's papers in this article. One would have to read the papers (in German) to see if there is any other information in them that might have inspired Fleischmann. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 04:15:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA11011; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:14:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:14:41 -0800 Message-ID: <007401bf5b6c$92f21f00$698e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 05:13:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"j036g3.0.zh2.mqSUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Using a voltage divider to measure the DC voltage in a circuit, V and a dropping resistor to measure a voltage proportional to the DC current, I, two integrating Op Amps to multiply V*I feeding a resistance summing circuit will give an output equal to power, P: P = VI = integral Vo to V I dV + integral Io to I V dI With 0 to 5 vdc for V and I, What would the Op Amp circuits feeding a summing circuit and a voltmeter look like? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 04:22:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA14172; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:21:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:21:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3879CE90.EA386BC6 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:20:32 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Evidence for a dynamic origin of charge (quant-ph/0001012) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9wNAr3.0.MT3.DxSUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0001012 Quantum Physics, abstract quant-ph/0001012 Evidence for a dynamic origin of charge Authors: W. A. Hofer The fundamental equations of particle motion lead to a modified Poisson equation including dynamic charge. This charge derives from density oscillations of a particle; it is not discrete, but continuous. Within the dynamic model of hydrogen it accounts for all features of electron proton interactions, its origin are density oscillations of the proton. We propose a new system of electromagnetic units, based on meter, kilogram, and second, bearing on these findings. The system has none of the disadvantages of traditional three-unit systems. On the basis of our theoretical model we can genuinely derive the scaling factor between electromagnetic and mechanic variables, which is equal, within a few percent, to Planck's constant h. The implications of the results in view of unifying gravity and quantum theory are discussed. It seems that the hypothetical solar gravity field, in the very low frequency range of the electromagnetic spectrum, is open to experimental detection. In my point of view, there would be no physical entity on universe which can be described free of time dimension. Maybe the meter of our understanding of physics is based to the decreasing the number of things assumed static now (i.e. gravity). Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 04:28:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA16280; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:27:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:27:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3879CFF1.3F6BBAB7 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:26:26 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Torsion List Subject: How does the electromagnetic field couple to gravity, in particular to metric, nonmetricity, torsion, and curvature? (gr-qc/0001010) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ceuys.0.E-3.Z0TUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0001010 General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract gr-qc/0001010 How does the electromagnetic field couple to gravity, in particular to metric, nonmetricity, torsion, and curvature? From: yo thp.Uni-Koeln.DE (Yuri N. Obukhov) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:50:52 GMT (33kb) Authors: Friedrich W. Hehl, Yuri N. Obukhov Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 07:28:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05583; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:27:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3879FABC.EB7CF764 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:29:04 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Placebos in N.Y. Times References: <3.0.6.32.20000109214415.007a4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BiLry.0.5N1.ofVUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > We seem to have a similar "no blanks" "everything works" problem in CF > nowadays. Ohmori showed that Au cells produce heat. (This has not been > replicated as far as I know.) Recent preliminary evidence suggests even Pt > in light water may produce heat in some circumstances. Since Pt-H is > considered the most reliable "blank" cell, if this result is confirmed it > will make many people uncomfortable. I will begin to wonder whether every > metal electrolysis can produce CF, and if there is any such thing as a > blank. You wonder why people never noticed. Pt still appears to be a good blank if it is clean. On the other hand, Pt which has acquired a layer of crud during extended electrolysis appears to be able to make excess energy. This raises the question of just what environments the anomalous nuclear reaction need. This also suggests the possibility that any material which does not form a hydride, such as Pt, Au or Cu, might become active given sufficient electrolysis. This effect might also relate to the behavior of palladium although in this case loss of hydrogen from the crud layer through the metal might make this metal less reproducible than the others. It would indeed be an irony for all of this time and effort to be wasted on palladium when other metals might be better. Skeptics should realize that if a "blank" were actually making energy while being used to zero the calorimeter, any resulting energy from a subsequent study of palladium would give a smaller excess than actually present. Regards, Ed Storms > > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 07:37:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09011; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:36:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:36:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000110093322.00dcf444 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:33:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Flow calorimetry problems In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000109091716.007d3860 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19991222152622.0179e138 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991222124049.02b14e70 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991222084302.017a1154 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991222064742.007c3870 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991221224754.006ccbb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221200445.007ba790 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991221183256.006cf824 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221172155.00d24ac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991221150810.017acf68 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221144335.014c0250 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.19991221105151.0079c830 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.19991220172309.007d2450 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.19991220162057.007ad860 pop.mindspring.com> <199912202108.OAA27693 smtp.asu.edu> <3.0.6.32.19991220011526.00879370 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991219232448.006b3da0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991219071204.007cfac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991219003353.006ca214 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.19991218230006.007c5100 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991218204805.006bdee8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"f7QVH3.0.jC2.AoVUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:17 AM 1/9/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Since the data which I plotted came from YOUR >Tables "ave Pout" and "avg Pin" exactly which >-- or both -- of those numbers was incorrect, >and please include the derivations. Thanks. That information is included in the text of the report on Run 8, located at: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run8.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 07:44:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12559; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:43:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <38790701.430282E8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:38:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"Rhd4L.0.943.LuVUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The second sentence in the paragraph that follows should have ended with the phrase "moral values that are defensible." Unfortunately, that qualifier was somehow deleted in the process of tinkering with the rest of the paragraph. > >***{Not at all. It is possible to reach a reasoned conclusion by >demolishing irrational arguments, even when the discussion is concerned >with moral values, if one of the participants in a discussion bases his >arguments on moral values. Persuading the person whose arguments have been >demolished to admit that he is wrong, or even to stop beating his gums, is >of course quite another matter. However, the latter problem afflicts *all* >discussions, including even those which you would grant are "scientific." >It is simply a fact that most arguments end with one of the participants >lapsing into silence, and it is frequently the one who is correct who does >that, for no better reason than that he is tired of demolishing the same >tired statements over and over again. --MJ}*** As to what the phrase "moral values that are defensible" means, it refers to the types of goals which reasoning beings will pursue, not to the goals which the twisted, non-reasoning, and only quasi-human inhabitants of an existential hell (e.g., Spain under the Inquisition) will pursue. Thus even if Torquemada enjoyed stretching heretics on the rack, that fact does not render "stretching another human being on the rack" a defensible moral value. And, similarly, the fact that many of the twisted inhabitants of sci.physics.fusion enjoy disrupting substantive discussions of "over unity" claims by hurling pejoratives at those who engage in them, does not mean they are pursuing defensible values, either. Bottom line: the claim that any set of values is as good as any other boils down to a claim that reason is of no use in decision making, and, thus, is clearly false. --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 08:18:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27714; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:16:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:16:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000110111619.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:16:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Bierce defines gravity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vinEg1.0.ym6.MNWUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gravitation, n. The tendency of all bodies to approach one another with a strength proportioned to the quantity of matter they contain -- the quantity of matter they contain being ascertained by the strength of their tendency to approach one another. This is a lovely and edifying illustration of how science, having made A the proof of B, makes B the proof of A. - Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary," (1906) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 08:22:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30004; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:20:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:20:08 -0800 Message-ID: <387A06E1.B6CB1D49 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:20:56 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hmEio.0.gK7.tQWUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >To all who are interested, > > > >I have been following the discussion of evil with a mixed feeling. On the one > >hand, I agree this is not a scientific discussion. > > ***{This discussion, or at least my side of it, is an attempt to shed light > on the reasons why anomalous science, including CF, evokes enormous > hostility in the mainstream scientific community. It is a subject that has > been discussed in this group for years--including lengthy comments by you, > as a matter of fact--and it is unarguably on topic here. Whether it meets > your definition of a "scientific" discussion is quite beside the point. > --Mitchell Jones}*** Mitchell, your are starting off by making my point for me. We can not even agree about my trivial point of whether this is a scientific discussion such as should be on Vortex. How can be hope to agree about what is evil. > > On the other hand, the > >basic concept has been applied to people holding unpopular views in science. > > ***{The concept I am using applies only to people who seek material > benefits by permitting "significant others" to transfer opinions into their > skulls. Sometimes the transferred opinions could be described as "unpopular > views in science," and sometimes not. For example, there are many people > whose "significant others" are religious fundamentalists, and, as a result, > they often permit themselves to be programmed to believe that biological > evolution is false. But there is no consistent link relating evil to the > popularity or unpopularity of the views that are acquired. For example, > during their undergraduate years the "significant others" of many > contemporary physicists included biology professors, and, to gain A's in > their classes, many permitted themselves to be programmed to believe that > evolution is true. In both of these examples, from my perspective, the > processes by which the beliefs were acquired were evil, because it is a > fundamental abandonment of moral responsibility to permit anyone to treat > your mind as an inert vessel into which he can pour any opinion that he > pleases. It doesn't matter whether, in a particular case, the opinion is > true or false. What does matter is that if the opinion is accepted > *uncritically*, with no attempt to ferret out contradictory information, > then the individual is potentially open to anything, including things that > are not merely wrong, but horrific. There is literally no limit to the > depths to which a person can sink, once he gets in the habit of pursuing > material benefits by letting other people program his brain. --Mitchell > Jones}*** You are calling a normal and routine process of the human condition evil. I suggest your particular emotional reaction to the process comes from your life experience. My life experience does not cause me to have such a negative reaction to this process. Granted it is a process which requires awareness, but it is not evil. To paint it this way is to cheapen the concept of evil. > > >The word evil and the meaning generally given comes from religion, in > >particular the Christian religion. Other religions do not have this concept. > >For example, Buddhism calls such actions the result of unenlightened behavior, > >a much more useful concept. This being the case, I think a better word than > >“evil” might be more useful to express your disgust with certain behavior. > > ***{Ed, I believe that the most appropriate term to use is "evil," but you > can use any term to denote this concept that you like. What matters here is > not so much what we call it as that we recognize that behavior arising from > these types of motivations is real, and very widespread, and that it is the > source of a major part of the hatred that has been directed against > scientists who have made anomalous claims. --MJ}*** The basis for rejection of new ideas by scientists has nothing to do with evil. The reaction is based on a sincere belief that the new idea is nonsense and on the belief that science needs to be protected from such cheapening influence. Greed, envy, and a wish to dominate can also play a role. None of these are evil unless all humans are evil by your definition. > > >I’m amazed at the variety of behavior and attitudes the two main participants > >in this discussion find disgusting. Clearly, no agreement is possible because > >this is a conflict in value systems which is impossible to resolve. > > ***{If you are saying that disputes about values, by their nature, do not > permit of a reasoned outcome, then I strongly disagree. In my view, some > values are objective, and when an argument about values involves a person > who bases his arguments on such values, it becomes possible to reach a > reasoned conclusion. Nothing, of course, forces the losing party to admit > that he is wrong, but that is quite a separate question from the issue of > whether a reasoned conclusion can be reached. --MJ}*** Values are based on emotion, not reason. Consequently, reason has very little effect. Values can be changed but not in a forum such as Vortex. > > That is > >why wars are fought. > > ***(Wars are fought because most of the people on this planet are in the > habit of uncritically adopting beliefs in order to fit in. People who > refuse to be programmed by others do not beat the drums for war, because > the destructiveness of war is easily apparent to anyone who thinks > critically about it. Such people endorse war only in response to > aggression, and then only as a last resort. --MJ}*** While I agree with and admire many of your insights about science, I think you are very naive on this subject. > > That is also why science avoids such subjects in its > >effort to resolve differences of opinion about nature. > > ***{Science does not avoid such subjects at all, if by "avoid" you mean > that discussions between scientists are objective, level headed, > substantive, and motivated by a dispassionate search for the truth. In > point of fact vast numbers of discussions between "scientists" involve > participants who are motivated by *pure evil*, as you may verify for > yourself by checking out the internet cesspool known as sci.physics.fusion, > where any attempt at a reasoned discussion is derailed by people who are > motivated by hatred of anyone who exhibits a willingness to question the > paradigms of establishment physics. Worse, behavior in that group is > representative of the reaction of the mainstream physics community to > anomalous research. --MJ}*** By using the word evil to describe behavior, you add a value judgment which is only in your value system. More to the point, this approach can completely hid from your understanding actually what is going on and the methods for resolving the problem. While you may feel more "perfect" in the process, you are isolating yourself from the very people you need to influence. While the motivations of scientist are frequently not "pure", you need to understand just what your motivations might be. If eliminating evil, as you define it, is one of them, I think you are going to be very frustrated and ineffective. > > Once such discussions > >are defined in terms of "evil", all hope for a resolution is lost. > > ***{Not at all. It is possible to reach a reasoned conclusion by > demolishing irrational arguments, even when the discussion is concerned > with moral values, if one of the participants in a discussion bases his > arguments on moral values. Persuading the person whose arguments have been > demolished to admit that he is wrong, or even to stop beating his gums, is > of course quite another matter. However, the latter problem afflicts *all* > discussions, including even those which you would grant are "scientific." > It is simply a fact that most arguments end with one of the participants > lapsing into silence, and it is frequently the one who is correct who does > that, for no better reason than that he is tired of demolishing the same > tired statements over and over again. --MJ}*** Have you ever demolished an irrational argument? Can you not visualize both parties thinking they are correct and lapsing into silence for the same reason? > > >Therefore, for the sake of the worthwhile contributions you all can and have > >made to science, I suggest you keep your value system to yourselves. > > ***{How do you keep the hatred which evil men feel for innovators out of > scientific discussions, Ed? Merely saying that such behavior is motivated > by value systems and that people should keep their value systems out of > scientific discussions will not do it. The only way to deal with people who > spew their hatred by introducing pejoratives into discussions is to develop > a toolbox of techniques for dealing with them. And the only way to do that > is to understand what they are, and, in particular, to understand the > character flaws which motivate their misbehavior. If you do that, then you > place yourself in a position to actually *enjoy* interacting with them, > because it becomes child's play to slap them down. That way, you exit the > arena only when you become bored, rather than because they put up such a > stench that they drove you out. --MJ}*** Talking about values, i.e. evil, is much different from discussing the facts of science. Granted, values do color how the facts are interpreted but this is a problem which can not be solved. Two people can discuss a subject and reach agreement only if their values overlap. Otherwise they will be talking at cross purpose, as you have found during some of your discussions. When this happens, a wise person goes off to find someone who will listen rather than beating against a stone wall. This is what I intend to do with this discussion. Regards, Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 08:45:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08264; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:43:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:43:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000110114539.0225bc70 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:45:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000109175016.013fca80 inforamp.net> <3.0.5.32.20000109131351.0169c850 inforamp.net> <3.0.6.32.20000109091624.007cfac0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000106221547.006f11cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.20000106223628.0136a280 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hDeur1.0.112.-mWUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:33 AM 01/10/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: < Bottom line: >none of my personal experiences have supported any of the bizarre claims of >parapsychology, and nothing I have read on the subject has convinced me >either. Result: I simply don't believe any of it. --MJ}*** Interesting. Yet from what I've read, I've come to the exact opposite conclusion, and I've also verified from life experiences that anticipatory belief often plays a powerful role. In fact, I suspect that the universe(*) tends to conspire-- through people, events, or through synchronous events, to give us whatever we mostly dwell upon. (Negatively or positively.) *=(substitute your own definition) >> >>So what is Mills' gravity theory as you see it? > >***{I have been considering posting something on that subject, but I >probably won't get around to it for a few days. It is, without doubt, a >very interesting and important topic. --MJ}*** > Yes. Without a doubt. I think that once the cold fusion devices are more commonly accepted, the funding door to other alternative energy and gravity modification experiments will be opened wider. It is my contention that in this field, we should be generous. I mean the sharing of information is especially necessary since this subject is of so much interest to certain agencies.. who really don't have the interests of our individual freedoms at heart. (and that's my belief :-) Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 09:19:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24105; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:18:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:18:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000110121256.007c9100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:12:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Bierce defines gravity In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000110111619.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"u3FbM.0.Uu5.CHXUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:16 AM 1/10/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Gravitation, n. The tendency of all bodies to approach one another with a >strength proportioned to the quantity of matter they contain -- the >quantity of matter they contain being ascertained by the strength of their >tendency to approach one another. This is a lovely and edifying >illustration of how science, having made A the proof of B, makes B the >proof of A. > >- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary," (1906) Actually, first, it is NOT a definition of gravity. Second, also, Newton's correct law of gravitation is that any two masses attract each other with a force directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the distance between their centers of mass. The devil is in the details. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 15:25:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06341; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:24:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:24:13 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <387A7877.60658C77 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:25:27 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"cms-n3.0._Y1.SecUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: ...The reason we have to tilt our telescopes away from the true location of a distant star by the aberration angle (about 20 seconds of arc) is because the Earth moves a noticeable amount during the time light is traveling down the telescope ... Hi Scott, Now you are really confusing me. I don't see hou aberration has anything to do with "the tine light is travelling down the telescope." There is an article in Infinite Energy, volume 5, issue 27, 1999, "The speed of gravity: What the experiments say" by Tom Van Flandern? (starts on p. 50) Van Flandern defines "transit delay" and "aberration": Transit Delay: ^ Sun -> (photon) -> ->Earth Star2 **************************************** * ANGLE A Earth * * Earth * * Earth * * * (start) Earth * Star1 In order for a photon emitted by the Sun to strike the Earth, the Sun must emit the photon in the direction od Star2 when the Earth is in the direction of Star1 from the Sun. The tangent of Angle A is Earth speed / photon speed . For small angles, tangent A = A in radians. Aberration: Sun (start) Star2 **************************************** Sun ~ ANGLE A * Sun ~ * Sun (photon) ~ * Sun ~ * Sun Earth * Star1 v If we consider the Earth to be at rest, the photon will appear to be emitted from the "starting" position of the sun. Quoting from Van Flandern, page 51: "Light requires about 8.3 minutes to arrive from the Sun, during which time the Sun seems to move through an angle of 20 arc seconds. The arriving sunlight shows us where the Sun was 8.3 minutes ago. The true, instantaneous position of the Sun is about 20 arc seconds east of its visible position ... In same the way, star positions are displaced from their average positions by up to 20 arc seconds, depending on the ... Earth's motion around the Sun. This well-known phenomenon is classical ABERRATION and was discovered by the astronomer Bradley in 1728." Scott Little wrote: Good thinking, Hamdi. The light (ray, beam, stream of photons or whatever ... Jack writes: It does seem to matter whether or not we are talking about particles or waves. If a stream of particles hits the surface of the water at an angle less than 90 deg., passing through the surface will not affect a particle's component of velocity parallel to the surface. If a force is exerted on the light particles as they enter the water, the vertical component of velocity could be increased. If the vertical particle speed in water is greater than in air, while the horizontal speed is the same, the beam of light would be bent to the left (toward the normal). Since this is the observed experimental result. the conclusion would be that the velocity of light is greater in water than it is in air, if light consisted of particles. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 16:36:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28517; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:34:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:34:08 -0800 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:33:22 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill In-Reply-To: <85.855f02ed.25a65b70 aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA28492 Resent-Message-ID: <"gRaEw3.0.Vz6._fdUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince If you can get an A/D converter, couple it to your PC in a similar manner that Scott Little does, and measure all your experiments automatically. There are a number of companies making A/D's for the PC. Data Transltion and Analogic come to mind. Look in a Poptronics magazine, in the back as a starter. Several companies advertise there. Good Luck Hank On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 VCockeram aol.com wrote: > All, > > Run 010600 completed today. H2 and K fill. > H2 fill pressure 20 ±0.1 torr. > Tc was 249.1 C ±0.1 C > Tv was 649 VDC ±1% > Ta was 0.0303 amp ±1% > Tw (Tv X Ta) was 19.66 > Tc/w was 12.67 degrees per watt. > > Compare the above readings to the 3 calibration runs conducted 7-24 thru > 8-8-99 below: > > Fill---Tc-----Tv-----Ta-----Tw-----Tc/w > 20.7--221.9--0759--0.0257--19.50--11.37 > 20.0--193.5--0766--0.0219--16.77--11.53 > 20.0--203.5--0750--0.0209--15.67--12.98 > > Not much difference with or without K it seems, > but a lot of ground to cover yet. If there is > an effect I'm looking for a big difference. > > It is important to bring the tube slowly up > to power level. I start at as low a power input > as possible to sustain a stable discharge and > gradually increase to the wattage input target, > which is the wattage that the calibration was > run at. > > Found it not possible just to shoot for voltage or current because the tube > characteristics are very different with K metal in the tube. > So it takes a lot of calculator juggling to get to a wattage set point. > > Anyone out there know a supplier of a DC wattmeter that will use a DC volt > range of 0 to 50 volts and a current range of 0 to 150 milliamps? Direct > reading analog preferred. My Simpson engineering catalog only lists AC > wattmeters. > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram > Las Vegas Nevada > 702-254-2122 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 16:46:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23728; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:44:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:44:13 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IE Article Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:43:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id QAA23702 Resent-Message-ID: <"o2qWe2.0.go5.RpdUu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:54:54 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] >So Eugene, what happened to the other two articles on the resonant nuclear >generator? Is this going to get a reply? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 19:06:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12976; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:05:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:05:10 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:04:52 EST Subject: H2K: Wattmeter Search To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"nyHAj.0.YA3.btfUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Many thanks to all who responded to my call for help on instrumentation for the H2K glow discharge experiment. All good responses that I looked over very carefully. The search is over but not in a way I expected. A benefactor, who has requested to remain nameless, is sending me a brand new Texmate DI-50S 5 digit smart digital meter with a DD1 dual input voltage module. The instrument is presently being calibrated by Texmate for an I input of 0 to 200 milliamps and a V input of 0 to 35 VDC. (This 0-35VDC is derived from a 100 to 1 voltage divider across the glow discharge tube.) The display panel will read actual watts DC. The meter also supplies an isolated analog output of 0 to 10 VDC into a 5 Kohm load that will be perfect for driving a motor servo or the like to control the HV power supply. The meter should arrive sometime this week. A few days to study the manual and then construct and calibrate the needed ammeter shunt and I should be able to get the drifting watt input to the experiment nailed down tight. With some help from Scott Little I also plan to construct a servo loop to control the Variac on the HV power supply. That will fully automate control of power delivered to the glow tube. Computer control and logging has been mentioned by a few of you. I will scout around for an old 486 and an A/D converter card. I can't use my existing home system as it is physically isolated from the lab area. I don't see much of a problem finding an old 486. H&R sells a A/D card and software at a reasonable price. I want to publicly express my gratitude to all members of this list who have provided me with much support in keeping this experiment up and running. Without you there never would have been an experiment at all. I am getting emotional here but this is the way I believe science should be done, small labs without the interference of big business or big government. I am truly grateful to you all. Best Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 19:15:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17953; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:13:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:13:21 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <79.79729426.25abf9c8 aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:13:12 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"_1yXn2.0.QO4.H_fUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/7/00 1:37:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, george varisys.com writes: > Vince, > One more quick point, much of the run to > run variation you are experiencing may > be due to ambient temperature variation. > Are you recording the ambient temperature? > Regards, > George Holz george varisys.com Yes I am. Regards, Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 19:15:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18656; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:14:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:14:14 -0800 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: seismologists? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"oFsCM.0.QZ4.40gUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Robin, I am not sure but will ask. An approximate 90 minute period is found in humans called the BAC, or Basic Activity and Rest Cycle. Why do you ask? On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Hi, > > If there are any on the list, could you tell me if there is a noticeable 92 > minute long term periodicity in the seismic background? > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 19:20:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21033; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:19:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:19:22 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:18:29 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"NLC6u1.0.Y85.u4gUu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/8/00 6:09:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: <> > I think you are better off to find a way to read your DC power and keep it as > constant as you can. I would guess that, after the discharge tube has warmed > up to its final temperature, so that K vapor pressure and gas composition > have reached steady state, your RC-filtered discharge voltage is pretty > steady. If so, then you might not have to calculate power, but you can get > away by just adjusting the variac to hold the DC current constant. Of course, > > if the voltage does begin to drift a lot, then this scheme will not work. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > Agreed Michael, and it looks like the power input controller is getting closer to reality. See my long post on Wattmeter Search. Much Thanks, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 19:22:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22582; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:20:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:20:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:21:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: relativity teaser In-Reply-To: <387A7877.60658C77 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZG6c52.0.hW5.26gUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:25 AM 1/11/00 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Now you are really confusing me. I don't see hou >aberration has anything to do with "the tine light is >travelling down the telescope." Look at this version of the same drawings you were making. The stationary source of light (star) is directly overhead and the telescope on Earth is passing under it. The light hitting us now has been on its way from the star for a while. We want the telescope to see light emitted by the star. Star | | | | | / / / / / / angled telescope / / --------|---|------------> Earth's orbital velocity a b When the light enters the upper end of the telescope, the eyepiece is at "a". The light travels straight down while the telescope travels to the right such that, when the light gets to the bottom of the telescope, the eyepiece is at "b" and the light goes thru the eyepiece. The telescope is inclined at the aberration angle. This is the picture that I suspect stimulated Airy to try the water-filled telescope to see if the lower lightspeed in the telescope would necessitate a greater tilt. Can you figure out why the aberration angle remained the same when the telescope was filled with water? >Scott Little wrote: > >Good thinking, Hamdi. The light (ray, beam, stream of >photons or whatever ... OK, I should have said "whatever WAVELIKE". Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 19:43:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01308; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:42:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:42:15 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <8b.8b9cec14.25ac0087 aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:41:59 EST Subject: Potassium To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"bSNj82.0.KK.MQgUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred directed me to a chemical supplier and I found this at their site. Something I did not know about the dangers of Potassium: MATERIAL OVERVIEW POTASSIUM Hazards: Dangerous fire risk; reacts with moisture to form potassium hydroxide and hydrogen. The reaction evolves much heat causing the potassium to melt and splatter. It also ignites the hydrogen. Burning potassium is difficult to extinguish; dry powdered soda ash or graphite or special mixtures of dry chemical is recommended. It can ignite spontaneously in moist air. Moderate explosion risk by chemical reaction. Potassium metal will form the peroxide and the superoxide at room temperature even when stored under mineral oil; may explode violently when handled or cut. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oxide-coated potassium should be destroyed by burning. Store in inert atmospheres, such as argon or nitrogen, or under liquids which are oxygen-free, such as toluene or kerosene, or in glass capsules which have been filled under vacuum or inert atmosphere. For more information visit the reference library at our web site: http://www.espi-metals.com That bit about "may explode violently when handled or cut. " really got my attention. And it looks like a good way to store it is under kerosene. I remember that's the way they stored sodium in my fathers lab. A lot easier to clean than mineral oil also. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 20:28:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19846; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:27:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:27:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000110232843.01644db0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:28:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: SPARC In-Reply-To: <387A7877.60658C77 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jN0ut3.0.ir4.H4hUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The information on the Aurora is at the Beginner, Intermediate, and the Advanced level. Colin Quinney Space Physics and Aeronomy Research Collaboratory. The purpose of the Space Physics and Aeronomy Research Collaboratory (SPARC) project is to design, develop, deploy, and evaluate Internet-based technology that helps space scientists work together in collaborative studies of space and upper atmospheric science. The SPARC team includes an international community of space, computer, and behavioral scientists. The Upper Atmospheric Research Collaboratory, from which SPARC has developed, focused on internet-based collaborative interactions during real-time data acquisition, usually from a single site in Greenland ( Sondre Stromfjord). Over the last few years of the UARC project, a larger number of ground-based instruments and satellites were included as well as large-scale computational models of the upper atmosphere. The SPARC project now expands from the emphasis of UARC to include a wider range of participating instruments and models corresponding to an expanded emphasis on science topics spanning the Earth's magnetosphere-ionosphere- thermosphere system. The SPARC project is funded by the National Science Foundation's Knowledge and Distributed Intelligence (KDI) program. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 21:09:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30658; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:02:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:02:03 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: seismologists? Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:01:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA30636 Resent-Message-ID: <"-tD941.0.yU7.AbhUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:19:07 -0500 (EST), John Schnurer wrote: [snip] > Why do you ask? At the time, I thought it might be possible that a small black hole was oscillating back and forth though the earth. I have however since calculated that if any such exists, then it has long come to rest in the core. If so, then it has likely "eaten out" a cavity in the solid nickel-iron of the core. Obviously the remaining solid core is self supporting, or there isn't any black-hole. Is there perhaps any seismic evidence of a cavern? > >On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> If there are any on the list, could you tell me if there is a noticeable 92 >> minute long term periodicity in the seismic background? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 21:19:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA05587; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:17:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:17:40 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:17:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154@mail.eden.com> <387A7877.60658C77@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA05542 Resent-Message-ID: <"zJk8D3.0.DN1.ophUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:21:20 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] > --------|---|------------> Earth's orbital velocity > a b Shouldn't this be Earth's motion relative to the star, and not just orbital velocity around the sun? (The solar system's speed around the galaxy is about 10 times the earth's speed around the sun). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 22:06:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA21731; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:04:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:04:46 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111000537.006f18d4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:05:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: relativity teaser In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154 mail.eden.com> <387A7877.60658C77 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"IiTUb1.0.TJ5.-ViUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:17 PM 1/11/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:21:20 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >[snip] >> --------|---|------------> Earth's orbital velocity >> a b >Shouldn't this be Earth's motion relative to the star, and not just orbital >velocity around the sun? (The solar system's speed around the galaxy is >about 10 times the earth's speed around the sun). Good point! Yes, the actual aberration angle that our view of an object suffers does depend upon our total velocity w.r.t. that object. However, Earth's orbital velocity is the only major component of that velocity that has a reasonably short periodicity (i.e. it reverses sign every 6 months). It's really the variation in aberration that we observe...not absolute aberration. Our fast galatic velocity just provides a DC offset that we typically ignore. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 22:41:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA30545; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:40:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:40:27 -0800 Message-ID: <20000111064024.13878.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:40:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Wattmeter Search To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"XRsU82.0.7T7.Q1jUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The search is over but not in a way I expected. A benefactor, who has > requested to remain nameless, is sending me a brand new Texmate DI-50S > 5 digit smart digital meter with a DD1 dual input voltage module. > The instrument is presently being calibrated by Texmate for an I input of > 0 to 200 milliamps and a V input of 0 to 35 VDC. (This 0-35VDC is derived > from a 100 to 1 voltage divider across the glow discharge tube.) > > The display panel will read actual watts DC. The meter also supplies an > isolated analog output of 0 to 10 VDC into a 5 Kohm load [snip] I don't know what voltage this meter analog output is isolated for. I urge you to change your wiring, so that your meter is at ground. Then, you won't have the possibility of high voltage coming through the meter, to either you or your equipment. HOT o---/ballast lamps/--->discharge<---/ammeter/---o GROUND ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 22:44:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA32179; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:43:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:43:10 -0800 Message-ID: <20000111064307.83786.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [132.234.250.7] From: "Colin Rickert" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Water powered lawn mower. Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:43:07 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Gf87X.0.js7.z3jUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: NOTICE Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com The prupose of this notice is to place into public domain something which I invented so that it may be patented and in order to prevent it's use from being restricted in any way. The device is an engine in which small quantitites of water are turned into steam by the use of a magnetron (as found in microwave ovens). Interested parties may wish to try this test: Place a few drops of water into a clear plastic 35mm film roll holder and put the cap on the film roll holder. Place in a microwave oven and turn the oven on. The 'pop' is the result of the water turning suddenly into steam. The engine I have invented is far more efficient than any other steam engine because the efficiency of the magnetron in turning water into steam. In fact, the water droplet 'explodes' very much like air/gasoline explodes in a conventional internal combustion engine. This engine was first tested in 1992. I am however unable to invest the required capital to produce a more sophisticated model and therefore unable to patent it. Even though I may not be able to profit from this technology, it is too good to be kept to myself and I would like to spread it around so that others may be able to use it. The following is an outline of how to construct the device and a few cautions: PARTS NEEDED: 1. Magnetron from medium power microwave oven. 2. Small 4-stroke single cylinder lawn mover engine or similar engine with 'old style' points and ignition system. 3. Automotive alternator with built-in rectifier and regulator, also a 12 volt auto battery. 4. "Trigger" mechanism from an aircraft "strobe" landing light. INSTRUCTIONS: 1. The magnetron fits into the spark plug hole. 2. The distributor points are modified so that the contact is closed when the piston is at the top dead center and this contact is used to activate the aircraft strobe mechanism. 3. The high voltage from the strobe is connected to directly fire the magnetron which in turn produces steam which moves the piston. 4. The engine turns the alternator which keeps the battery charged, which supplies the electrical power for the magnetron. CAUTION AND TIPS: WARNING!!! DANGER!!!! 1. Be careful around the magnetron. KEEP IT SHIELDED WITH METAL. IT CAN CAUSE SEVERE BURNS THAT MAY NOT BE READILY VISIBLE WHEN THEY FIRST OCCUR. 2. The 'strobe' trigger delivers a very high voltage which can jump to ground. WEAR RUBBER SOLED SHOES AND INSULATE WELL. 3. Be sure to modify the distributor points so they close at the top dead center. Timing advance depends on the power of the magnetron used and the amount of water. Try different carb jet sizes -- drill out if needed. 4. Due to variables, don't expect high engine speeds without a little experimentation due to variables. 5. Start with a fully charged battery or your alternator won't work. 6. The energy produced is in excess of the power required to run the alternator but until you get the RPM up, and the parts wrking in harmony, it may be best to use a battery charger instead of an alternator. 7. An easy way to measure net power output after you have the alternator on line is to run a few 12 volt lights from the battery. You will see that the battery stays charged even with the lights on and the motor keeps on going. 8. Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with microwaves should also work well in a converted turbine. SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 23:24:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA07739; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:22:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:22:54 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:22:45 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Wattmeter Search To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA07713 Resent-Message-ID: <"2MZHY3.0.pu1.DfjUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/10/00 10:41:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > I don't know what voltage this meter analog output is isolated for. Right. And looking over the plug in module specs for this instrument I would say less than a standard DMM. Max voltage I see is 600 AC or DC. I will of course be in the under 50 volt range but a fault in the voltage divider could cause a disaster. > I urge you to change your wiring, so that your meter is at ground. Then, you won't > have the possibility of high voltage coming through the meter, to either you > or your equipment. Present (unsafe) wiring setup: TUBE BALLAST PS (-)--•-----[///////]---•------(A)-----/\/\/\/\/----(+) PS(grounded leg) |____(V)___| > > HOT o---/ballast lamps/--->discharge<---/ammeter/---o GROUND > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > Good point Michael, it shall be done as you propose. I overlooked the hefty voltage drop across the 16 incandescent lamps. Thanks, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 00:36:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19607; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:35:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:35:12 -0800 Message-ID: <387AE8AD.7D90 ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:24:13 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Anomalous Images Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZqLUy.0.Ho4.-ikUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fellow Vortexians, Two momths ago, I invited everyone to review the evidence for "Discontinuity of Motion" (motion quantization) posted at the site: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html The response to this invititation was a mixture of incredulity, helpful suggestions, constructive criticism, and derision. I could attach names to each of these categories, however, this is unnecessary since I'm sure you all know who you are. There have been further experiments and equipment calibration. My friend Frank Stenger, Research Engineer, NASA (ret.) formerly of this list, constructed a "Super BB" gun capable of firing a projectile that will traverse it's own diametric length in less than 1/64000 second, the hypothesized "quantum moment" of the universe. No photographic tests similar to Boisvert's "quantum leap" procedure have as yet been conducted, however Frank did some "grazing tests" firing BB's at some soft aluminum at a very small angle. No evidence of any discontinuous activity was obtained from those tests, nor from firing the BB through variously spaced foils show anything anomalous or unexpected by those who believe motion is continuous. It should be noted, however, that the theory's main proponent, Gordon Smith stated prior to these test runs that our notions of how the phenomena "should" work were incorrect, and predicted that indeed, continuous tracks would be produced by these kinds of tests. Smith nonetheless is unable to think of any other experiments besides photographic ones that will produce the anomalous results or information consistent with the original thesis. Therefore what we are left with is the images, which remain unexplained. In order to rule out possible "strobing" effects of the flash unit, a Honeywell Auto/Strobonar 360, Smith had the unit calibrated and the voltage and current graphed by a technician at the British Columbia Institute of Technology, Kam Fung. I wrote the procedure for these tests, which Kam did follow quite well, however he believed an additional photosensor measurement was necessary, from which he concluded that the light output did not really track the flashtube voltage or current characteristics at all. Kam believes that the smoother output of the photosensor is a more accurate indication of how the flashtube really responds over the given intervals. I would tend to disagree with this due to the slow response time of the sensor he used (7 usec), however, either way there is no indication that the motive discontinuities evident in some of the photographs at the above mentioned site are a result of unusual or unexpected flashtube or energizing circuit behaviour. The complete BCIT report is available in html by clicking here: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/testres.html In the recently acquired light of these calibration results, one still wonders how the photos taken at the 1/2000 second settings (setup 2, http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Setup2.html#Photo Setup 2 ) and displayed at: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html and: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html were produced, were motion not discontinuous in the manner and approximate durations which Smith describes. Since I assured Smith that we Vortexians were among the most enlightened association of scientists and engineers available anywhere, I would appreciate if we treat Smith, who admits he is not a "professional" "scientist" with the respect due anyone who joined in with a new and unsusual "crackpot" theory, backed up by real experiment. I'm not asking anyone to accept Smith's ideas out of hand, be as critical as you need be, however downgrading his ideas because they do not align with our own notions of what is "impossible" because of our own "pet theories" (such as the alleged "principle" of continuity) will be vigorously challenged by me persanally, complete with my judgemental evaluations of hypocritical attitudes not in keeping with "The Spirit of Vortex". Although I do not expect Smith to participate except when additional information is requested, he will be monitoring our discussions. Thanks to those who want to be helpful. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 01:50:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA01777; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:49:35 -0800 Message-ID: <387AFB1A.6AB6 ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:42:50 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower. Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com References: <20000111064307.83786.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YRIbp1.0.cR.lolUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey! What a NEAT idea! Why didn't any of you CF Brainiacs think of this? Why didn't I think of this? THANKS, Colin! I think you've just eliminated the world's need for reliance on fossil fuels! I hope you do not become targeted for assassination. Perhaps you should think up a military use for this technology and sell it to the Gov't. You are going to be rich, I hope. Be careful. Jim Ostrowski Colin Rickert wrote: > > NOTICE > Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com > > The prupose of this notice is to place into public domain something which I > invented so that it may be patented and in order to prevent it's use from > being restricted in any way. > > The device is an engine in which small quantitites of water are turned into > steam by the use of a magnetron (as found in microwave ovens). > > Interested parties may wish to try this test: Place a few drops of water > into > a clear plastic 35mm film roll holder and put the cap on the film roll > holder. > Place in a microwave oven and turn the oven on. The 'pop' is the result of > the water turning suddenly into steam. > > The engine I have invented is far more efficient than any other steam engine > because the efficiency of the magnetron in turning water into steam. In > fact, > the water droplet 'explodes' very much like air/gasoline explodes in a > conventional internal combustion engine. > > This engine was first tested in 1992. I am however unable to invest the > required capital to produce a more sophisticated model and therefore unable > to > patent it. Even though I may not be able to profit from this technology, it > is too good to be kept to myself and I would like to spread it around so > that > others may be able to use it. > > The following is an outline of how to construct the device and a few > cautions: > > PARTS NEEDED: > > 1. Magnetron from medium power microwave oven. > > 2. Small 4-stroke single cylinder lawn mover engine or similar engine with > 'old style' points and ignition system. > > 3. Automotive alternator with built-in rectifier and regulator, also a 12 > volt auto battery. > > 4. "Trigger" mechanism from an aircraft "strobe" landing light. > > INSTRUCTIONS: > > 1. The magnetron fits into the spark plug hole. > > 2. The distributor points are modified so that the contact is closed when > the > piston is at the top dead center and this contact is used to activate the > aircraft strobe mechanism. > > 3. The high voltage from the strobe is connected to directly fire the > magnetron which in turn produces steam which moves the piston. > > 4. The engine turns the alternator which keeps the battery charged, which > supplies the electrical power for the magnetron. > > CAUTION AND TIPS: > > WARNING!!! DANGER!!!! > > 1. Be careful around the magnetron. KEEP IT SHIELDED WITH METAL. IT CAN > CAUSE > SEVERE BURNS THAT MAY NOT BE READILY VISIBLE WHEN THEY FIRST OCCUR. > > 2. The 'strobe' trigger delivers a very high voltage which can jump to > ground. > WEAR RUBBER SOLED SHOES AND INSULATE WELL. > > 3. Be sure to modify the distributor points so they close at the top dead > center. Timing advance depends on the power of the magnetron used and the > amount of water. Try different carb jet sizes -- drill out if needed. > > 4. Due to variables, don't expect high engine speeds without a little > experimentation due to variables. > > 5. Start with a fully charged battery or your alternator won't work. > > 6. The energy produced is in excess of the power required to run the > alternator but until you get the RPM up, and the parts wrking in harmony, it > may be best to use a battery charger instead of an alternator. > > 7. An easy way to measure net power output after you have the alternator on > line is to run a few 12 volt lights from the battery. You will see that the > battery stays charged even with the lights on and the motor keeps on going. > > 8. Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with > microwaves > should also work well in a converted turbine. > > SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!! > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 04:01:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA19732; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000111065731.007d5100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:57:31 -0500 To: Robin van Spaandonk , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Bierce defines gravity In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000110121256.007c9100 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000110111619.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000110121256.007c9100 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2XvQL2.0.Bq4.QjnUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:15 AM 1/11/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk corrected: >On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:12:56 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >[snip] >> Second, also, Newton's correct law of gravitation is that any two >>masses attract each other with a force directly proportional >>to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to >>the distance between their centers of mass. >> >> The devil is in the details. >Hi Mitchell, > >Shouldn't that be "inversely proportional to the *square of* the distance >between ...."? >(Seem to be lots of devils :> ). > >Regards, >Robin van Spaandonk Robin: Of course. Agreed. Thanks for the iterative correction. Best wishes. Mitchell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 06:16:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13271; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:15:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:15:34 -0800 Message-ID: <007501bf5c46$9f7b7e80$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: From the same page Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:14:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"75uLV.0.CF3.6ipUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > **Dictionary of Research Phrases** > > > > "It has long been known..." > > I didn't look up the original references. > > "A reasonable trend is evident..." > > These data are practically meaningless. > > "Of great theoretical and practical importance..." > > It is interesting to me. > > "While it has not been possible to provide definite anwers to these > questions..." > > An unsuccessful experiment, but I still hope to get it published. > > "Three of the data sets were chosen for detailed study..." > > The results of the others didn't match my conclusions. > > "Typical results are shown..." > > The best results are shown. > > "These results will be shown in a subsequent report..." > > Haven't gotten around to it. > > "The most reliable results are those obtained by Jones..." > > He was my graduate student. > > "It is believed that..." > > I think... > > "It is generally believed that..." > > A couple of other guys think so, too. > > "Much more work is needed before a complete understanding of the > phenomenon can be reached." > > I don't understand it. > > "This result is correct within an order of magnitude..." > > It is wrong. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 06:43:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20072; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:42:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:42:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111083847.01ced0bc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:38:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Wattmeter Search Cc: Verdian aol.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sKLKb.0.Xv4.A5qUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:04 PM 1/10/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >The search is over but not in a way I expected. A benefactor, who has >requested to remain nameless, is sending me a brand new Texmate DI-50S >5 digit smart digital meter with a DD1 dual input voltage module. >The instrument is presently being calibrated by Texmate for an I input of >0 to 200 milliamps and a V input of 0 to 35 VDC. (This 0-35VDC is derived >from a 100 to 1 voltage divider across the glow discharge tube.) Mike Schaeffer's right...the meter needs to be closest to ground. I looked up the DD1 input module and found that its two voltage input channels are positive-only and have a common ground. That means your circuit will have to look like this: HOT+ | | BALLAST LAMPS | ----------------------| D | | I \ DISCHARGE TUBE V / | I \ DD1(1)----| D / / E |--DD1(2) \ R / / CURRENT SENSING R \ \ | | GROUND GROUND The voltage measured by channel 2 of the DD1 will (after correction for the divider) be equal to the voltage across BOTH the discharge tube AND the current shunt. With the DD1's non-isolated positive-only input channels I believe this is your only choice. Fortunately it should be relatively easy to make the additional voltage drop across the current sensing R negligible compared to the voltage across the tube. Since you want to measure 200 mA, perhaps a 5 ohm R should be used...that would provide a 1 volt signal for 200 mA. BTW, that R should be overrated wattage-wise (your max wattage would be .2 watts) and of the "precision resistor" type in order to obtain a nice low temperature coefficient. I've got a jillion 10.00 ohm 1/4 watt precision resistors around here somewhere, I could send you 8 of them which you could connect in pairs to make four 20 ohm resistors and then connect all four of those assemblies in parallel to make a composite 5 ohm resistor with good power dissipation and temperature stability. Another issue is signal jitter. Have you looked at the voltage or current signals with a scope while the experiment is running? Are they pretty steady or is it a mess of noise? In the latter case, you'll want some RC filtering of the signals before you feed them into the DD1 (thanks to Robin for suggesting this to me). I've learned, painfully, not to use electrolytics for this purpose. Their leakage can "drag" signals down noticeably. I've got some great mylar capacitors for this purpose that you can have. Here we have to pay attention to the input impedance of the DD1 which I believe is 1 megohm. In that case, I suggest a 10k R as the series R and a .22 mfd mylar (ones I happen to have a lot of!) to ground right "after" the R. That gives you a 2.2 millisecond filtering time constant which effectively removes "fast" noise from the signal and only introduces a 0.1% error in the value measured by the DD1. >With some help from Scott Little I also plan to construct a servo loop >to control the Variac on the HV power supply. That will fully automate >control of power delivered to the glow tube. The only competent help I can provide on this is to coach you on a BASIC program to execute the servo control in the old PC you're going to get. That's how I did it. I don't have the analog electronics experience to design an electronic servo control. However, I would like very much to learn and, in fact, have some projects on the back burner that need such controls (such as an emission control circuit for the ion source for my particle accelerator). So many things to do...so little time. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 08:14:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA20300; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:12:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:12:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387AE8AD.7D90 ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:08:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous Images Resent-Message-ID: <"b03bd2.0.6z4.fPrUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > >Since I assured Smith that we Vortexians were among the most enlightened >association of scientists and engineers available anywhere, I would >appreciate if we treat Smith, who admits he is not a "professional" >"scientist" with the respect due anyone who joined in with a new and >unsusual "crackpot" theory, backed up by real experiment. I'm not asking >anyone to accept Smith's ideas out of hand, be as critical as you need >be, however downgrading his ideas because they do not align with our own >notions of what is "impossible" because of our own "pet theories" (such >as the alleged "principle" of continuity) will be vigorously challenged >by me persanally, complete with my judgemental evaluations of >hypocritical attitudes not in keeping with "The Spirit of Vortex". ***{The principle of continuity is a valid analytical perspective until someone demonstrates the contrary, and no one has done that thus far, or even come close. I therefore have as much right to argue from that perspective as others have to argue from theirs, and you can bet your bottom dollar that I will continue to do so, when I feel that it is appropriate, whether you like it or not. As for your threat to continue introducing pejoratives into discussions (e.g., by hurling charges of "hypocricy") if others employ analytical perspectives with which you disagree, I would suggest that you would do better to keep demeaning comments about your opponents' characters and the goings on in their streams of consciousness *out* of your messages, until and unless similar negative speculations have first been made about you. The purpose of this group is to discuss concepts and issues relating to anomalous science, not to conduct flame wars, and a diversity of analytic perspectives should be encouraged here. If vortexians were interested in flame wars aimed at enforcing a uniformity of analytic approach, they would simply divert their posts to some usenet cesspool such as sci.physics.fusion, and terminate their subscriptions to this group. If you prefer that sort of environment, I would advise you to do just that. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Although I do not expect Smith to participate except when additional >information is requested, he will be monitoring our discussions. > >Thanks to those who want to be helpful. > >Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 08:43:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32459; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:41:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:41:43 -0800 Message-ID: <20000111164140.24190.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.38] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bierce defines gravity Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:41:40 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"UdP2S1.0.5x7.6rrUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And it appers in Vera Rubin's work, about how galaxies gravity greatly affect each other, that mass really adds up. And in my work it is shown that all the stars in our galaxy are affecting the Sun causing it to wobble. And that wobble is driving the planets. And that the gravity of the Sun is causing the Earth to wobble and that drives the Moon. Science has it all backwards when it comes to gravity all due to Einstein's divergance from the gravity constant in favor of void space. But in fluid space models, as Bachall and Perlmutter show in "The Cosmic Triangle", gravity is King and Whirlpower Rules. We are just about to reach critical mass and the hundreth monkey is in sight. A quick note. It appears Callum Coats is going to put Whirlpower in his new movie about Schauberger. When George Wisman published news of Whirlpower in his Eagle Research News Letter the Aussies caught on and are now talking to the rapidly growing Whirlpower Team as are Dr. Evert and the Germans. Whirlpower is making its biggest splash yet. David Dennard The Gravity Paradigm http://www.whirlpower.cc "with the tiger by the tail and his finger on the cosmic trigger" :) >From: Mitchell Swartz >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: Robin van Spaandonk , vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Bierce defines gravity >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:57:31 -0500 > > > >At 10:15 AM 1/11/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk corrected: > >On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:12:56 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >[snip] > >> Second, also, Newton's correct law of gravitation is that any two > >>masses attract each other with a force directly proportional > >>to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to > >>the distance between their centers of mass. > >> > >> The devil is in the details. > > > > >Hi Mitchell, > > > >Shouldn't that be "inversely proportional to the *square of* the distance > >between ...."? > >(Seem to be lots of devils :> ). > > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > > >Robin: > > Of course. Agreed. > > Thanks for the iterative correction. > > Best wishes. > > Mitchell > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 08:51:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06325; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:49:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:49:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111104628.01cebf04 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:46:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous Images In-Reply-To: <387AE8AD.7D90 ca-ois.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vBspD1.0.gY1.ryrUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:24 AM 1/11/00 -0800, Jim Ostrowski wrote: >Fellow Vortexians, > >Two momths ago, I invited everyone to review the evidence for >"Discontinuity of Motion" (motion quantization) posted at the site: > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html > >The response to this invititation was a mixture of incredulity, helpful >suggestions, constructive criticism, and derision. I could attach names >to each of these categories, however, this is unnecessary since I'm sure >you all know who you are. I'm in there somewhere...:) Interestingly, Jim, I recently found two papers on the LANL eprint server by Gao Shan: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0001013 http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0001012 which discuss this very issue but strictly on a quantum level. Shan maintains that motion is essentially discontinous at the quantum level and that all the difficulties in accepting QM (such as Einstein had) are a result of obstinately clinging to the idea of continuous classical motion. I think he's got a good point (at least I have difficulty accepting QM!) and it's worth reading his papers (the 013 one is only 2 pages long). However, because of the relatively large size of bullets and BB's, the phenomena that you are exploring are totally classical and could NEVER be explained by quantum effects. I still think the images could be a result of some kind of ringing phenomenon in the strobe light. In order to find out for sure, you or someone is going to have to first replicate the anomalous images and then study the strobe light behavior. I doubt if you can ever reach any solid conclusions by studying the old images and the present performance of the strobe light. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 08:59:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09089; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:57:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:57:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000111064307.83786.qmail hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:53:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower. Cc: tony_1959 hotmail.com Resent-Message-ID: <"HXHCZ3.0.vD2.l3sUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >NOTICE >Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com > >The prupose of this notice is to place into public domain something which I >invented so that it may be patented and in order to prevent it's use from >being restricted in any way. > >The device is an engine in which small quantitites of water are turned into >steam by the use of a magnetron (as found in microwave ovens). > >Interested parties may wish to try this test: Place a few drops of water >into >a clear plastic 35mm film roll holder and put the cap on the film roll >holder. >Place in a microwave oven and turn the oven on. The 'pop' is the result of >the water turning suddenly into steam. > >The engine I have invented is far more efficient than any other steam engine >because the efficiency of the magnetron in turning water into steam. In >fact, >the water droplet 'explodes' very much like air/gasoline explodes in a >conventional internal combustion engine. > >This engine was first tested in 1992. I am however unable to invest the >required capital to produce a more sophisticated model and therefore unable >to >patent it. Even though I may not be able to profit from this technology, it >is too good to be kept to myself and I would like to spread it around so >that >others may be able to use it. > >The following is an outline of how to construct the device and a few >cautions: > >PARTS NEEDED: > >1. Magnetron from medium power microwave oven. > >2. Small 4-stroke single cylinder lawn mover engine or similar engine with >'old style' points and ignition system. > >3. Automotive alternator with built-in rectifier and regulator, also a 12 >volt auto battery. > >4. "Trigger" mechanism from an aircraft "strobe" landing light. > >INSTRUCTIONS: > >1. The magnetron fits into the spark plug hole. > >2. The distributor points are modified so that the contact is closed when >the >piston is at the top dead center and this contact is used to activate the >aircraft strobe mechanism. > >3. The high voltage from the strobe is connected to directly fire the >magnetron which in turn produces steam which moves the piston. > >4. The engine turns the alternator which keeps the battery charged, which >supplies the electrical power for the magnetron. > >CAUTION AND TIPS: > >WARNING!!! DANGER!!!! > >1. Be careful around the magnetron. KEEP IT SHIELDED WITH METAL. IT CAN >CAUSE >SEVERE BURNS THAT MAY NOT BE READILY VISIBLE WHEN THEY FIRST OCCUR. > >2. The 'strobe' trigger delivers a very high voltage which can jump to >ground. >WEAR RUBBER SOLED SHOES AND INSULATE WELL. > >3. Be sure to modify the distributor points so they close at the top dead >center. Timing advance depends on the power of the magnetron used and the >amount of water. Try different carb jet sizes -- drill out if needed. > >4. Due to variables, don't expect high engine speeds without a little >experimentation due to variables. > >5. Start with a fully charged battery or your alternator won't work. > >6. The energy produced is in excess of the power required to run the >alternator but until you get the RPM up, and the parts wrking in harmony, it >may be best to use a battery charger instead of an alternator. > >7. An easy way to measure net power output after you have the alternator on >line is to run a few 12 volt lights from the battery. You will see that the >battery stays charged even with the lights on and the motor keeps on going. ***{Hi Colin. Many ideas of this sort have been floating around since microwave ovens became popular, including the notion of using huge magnetrons to extract oil from shale and from tar sands. In fact, I believe I have seen speculations about building a motor along the lines proposed by you, above. The problem, however, is that you ought to run head on into the conservation laws: the energy needed to vaporize the steam must be supplied by the battery. Since the expansion of the steam produces lots of frictional losses due to turning the wheels, rotating the crankshaft, etc., only a small percentage of the energy, via the alternator, comes back into the battery. Hence the battery ought to run down. In effect, an engine such as you describe is battery powered. However, if I follow your comments, you are claiming to have actually built an engine of this sort, and are claiming that as long as you keep adding water to the fuel tank, the thing just runs forever--or, at least, until the engine wears out. For example, if you were to place a float valve in the fuel tank and connect to your city water supply, the thing would never stop, right? In other words, you are saying that when a microwave oven vaporizes tap water, it is over unity? --MJ}*** > >8. Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with >microwaves >should also work well in a converted turbine. > >SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!! ***{This idea looks wrong to me. Before any of you guys get too excited about it, I would suggest doing a simple test: buy yourself a small power company line meter (about $50 from a typical supplier), modify it to plug into your wall socket, and then plug your microwave oven into it. Measure the temperature of a glass of water, place it in your microwave, set the timer for an interval long enough to boil away most of the water, do the test, and then compare power in to power out. I sincerely hope that power out will be *much* greater than power in, but I doubt it. --MJ}*** > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 09:04:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12117; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:02:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:02:43 -0800 From: Tgsleath aol.com Message-ID: <60.60633f5b.25acbc2e aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:02:38 EST Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower. Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"Sl8-D.0.Fz2.p8sUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Colin, Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. It is very important that the public at large know about this, and that you receive at least some reward. May I suggest the following: Create your own web site promoting this concept, and exchange links with related sites. Publish what you know in book form (spiral bound is fine) and charge what you feel is appropriate. Include photos if possible. And all test results. Offer it for sale on your web site. Borderland Science may also be interested. This stuff is too good to let slip through the cracks. Trevor From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 09:34:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26947; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:33:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:33:49 -0800 Message-ID: <20000111173342.57665.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.137] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bierce defines gravity Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:33:42 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vWgc71.0.na6.ybsUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A couple of quick typing corrections, I know how much you folks hate my spelling. That's Wiseman, not Wisman. Good luck to the water lawn mower guy. I'm in the same boat giving my invention away because I can't afford to do anything about it. I have lots of inventions. If you ever hear about Whirlpower being proven and if I get some prize money or get investment and businees help look me up, I'll help! I know the most valuable invention always comes from the inventor with no money. Money kills the creative spirit for most people and just makes them greedy and wanting more, more, more. I hope I never get like than and can always help another inventor. David Dennard http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: "David Dennard" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Bierce defines gravity >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:41:40 PST > >And it appears in Vera Rubin's work, about how galaxie's gravity greatly >affect each other, that mass really adds up. And in my work it is shown >that all the stars in our galaxy are affecting the Sun causing it to >wobble. > And that wobble is driving the planets. And that the gravity of the Sun >is causing the Earth to wobble and that drives the Moon. > >Science has it all backwards when it comes to gravity all due to Einstein's >divergance from the gravity constant in favor of void space. > >But in fluid space models, as Bachall and Perlmutter show in "The Cosmic >Triangle", gravity is King and Whirlpower Rules. > >We are just about to reach critical mass and the hundreth monkey is in >sight. > >A quick note. It appears Callum Coats is going to put Whirlpower in his >new >movie about Schauberger. When George Wiseman published news of Whirlpower >in >his Eagle Research News Letter the Aussies caught on and are now talking to >the rapidly growing Whirlpower Team as are Dr. Evert and the Germans. >Whirlpower is making its biggest splash yet. > >David Dennard >The Gravity Paradigm >http://www.whirlpower.cc > >"with the tiger by the tail and his finger on the cosmic trigger" :) > > > > >>From: Mitchell Swartz >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>To: Robin van Spaandonk , vortex-l@eskimo.com >>Subject: Re: Bierce defines gravity >>Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:57:31 -0500 >> >> >> >>At 10:15 AM 1/11/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk corrected: >> >On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:12:56 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> >[snip] >> >> Second, also, Newton's correct law of gravitation is that any two >> >>masses attract each other with a force directly proportional >> >>to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to >> >>the distance between their centers of mass. >> >> >> >> The devil is in the details. >> >> >> >> >Hi Mitchell, >> > >> >Shouldn't that be "inversely proportional to the *square of* the >>distance >> >between ...."? >> >(Seem to be lots of devils :> ). >> > >> >Regards, >> >Robin van Spaandonk >> >> >>Robin: >> >> Of course. Agreed. >> >> Thanks for the iterative correction. >> >> Best wishes. >> >> Mitchell >> >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 09:37:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25530; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:31:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:31:35 -0800 From: Tgsleath aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:31:21 EST Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"eZLb71.0.qE6.sZsUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >The prupose of this notice is to place into public domain something which I >invented so that it may be patented and in order to prevent it's use from >being restricted in any way. > Here is some information provided by Bruce Perreaul in a sister news group: "If the invention has been described in a printed publication .......for more than one year, the device becomes unpatentable." Patent Law states "printed publication." This does not include the internet because "it is not a fixed media." This was clearly explained to me by a well known patent examiner, Tom Valone. This means that any invention that is put on the internet does not qualify as printed media. Anyone can take the information and apply for patent in their name. -Bruce A. Perreault It appears that anyone can obtain a patent for your device if you do not publish your work in 'fixed' form. And even if you do publish, you must still be prepared to contest any application for a patent for the following 12 months. Only after 12 months will it become unpatentable. Trevor From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 10:09:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10621; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:08:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:08:34 -0800 Message-ID: <387B70D8.3B87 ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:05:12 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous Images References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yZLhY1.0.jb2.X6tUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > > >Since I assured Smith that we Vortexians were among the most enlightened > >association of scientists and engineers available anywhere, I would > >appreciate if we treat Smith, who admits he is not a "professional" > >"scientist" with the respect due anyone who joined in with a new and > >unsusual "crackpot" theory, backed up by real experiment. I'm not asking > >anyone to accept Smith's ideas out of hand, be as critical as you need > >be, however downgrading his ideas because they do not align with our own > >notions of what is "impossible" because of our own "pet theories" (such > >as the alleged "principle" of continuity) will be vigorously challenged > >by me persanally, complete with my judgemental evaluations of > >hypocritical attitudes not in keeping with "The Spirit of Vortex". > Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{The principle of continuity is a valid analytical perspective until > someone demonstrates the contrary, and no one has done that thus far, or > even come close. It would appear to me that Smith's results refutes your "principle" of continuity, unless I do not understand that idea correctly. You have admitted in our previous discussion of that topic that the "principle of continuity" precludes anything from coming into "existence" out of "nothing", but that does not mean the same thing as precluding the notion that something can come into existence out of the "unknown". The two terms then,"nothing" and "the unknown", are two entirely different and discernable concepts, according to our resolution of that debate. Therefore if I were to argue that some hypothetical experimental results appear to show evidence that objects can come into "existence" by means of as yet "unknown" or little understood mechanism (as when an object, appearing in one location, "disappears" then at a later time, appears at a new location) this would not be in conflict with your "principle". Therefore, I don't see anything for us to debate about. Your "principle" is not relevant to the issue, because it only applies to the idea of things coming into existence out of a hypothetical "nothing" which is exclusive of the set of locations or cicumtstances defined by the word "unknown", correct? > I therefore have as much right to argue from that > perspective as others have to argue from theirs, and you can bet your > bottom dollar that I will continue to do so, when I feel that it is > appropriate, whether you like it or not. Fire away, Mitchell. You have my post, to which you have only decided to respond to the addendum of, and not to any of the substantive information I provided. Explain the photographs, if you can. > As for your threat to continue > introducing pejoratives into discussions (e.g., by hurling charges of > "hypocricy") if others employ analytical perspectives with which you > disagree, I would suggest that you would do better to keep demeaning > comments about your opponents' characters and the goings on in their > streams of consciousness *out* of your messages, Speaking of which, calling people "evil" who engage in streams of consciousness defined by you as "selective" thinking, is the antithesis of the behaviour you just described, therefore you again show yourself to be "hypocritical". If you say that I am "evil" when I engage in "selective thinking", you are hypocritical when you engage in the behaviour you have just condemned as being "evil", above. > until and unless similar > negative speculations have first been made about you. The purpose of this > group is to discuss concepts and issues relating to anomalous science, not > to conduct flame wars, and a diversity of analytic perspectives should be > encouraged here. Oh, sure. No problem. > If vortexians were interested in flame wars aimed at > enforcing a uniformity of analytic approach, they would simply divert their > posts to some usenet cesspool such as sci.physics.fusion, and terminate > their subscriptions to this group. If you prefer that sort of environment, > I would advise you to do just that. --Mitchell Jones}** I once subscribed to the usenet newsgroup alt.sci.physics.new-theories, which was probably a more amicable place than this one for me since you were not participatiing there at the time. At least there, I never had to try to refute someone's suggestion that I might be "evil" because I didn't think like they did. I beginning to think that any place you are not is where I should be. However, you being a minority of exactly one versus the whole rest of the group who have been very helpful and courteous, I think I'll stay on. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:04:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01093; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:01:37 -0800 Message-ID: <20000111190134.66834.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.131] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower. Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:01:34 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oCVBx3.0.vG.GutUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If Tony gets this. Didn't catch if he was on the list or messages are being sent? You have to figure what you give away will be stolen from all I can gather. But if you give it away long enough and you set up a site and you have links and thousands of people know about it, when somebody steals it and proves it then lots of people will know you were right. This will very likely lead to some serious interest in your work. And it is likely no one will touch it for a very long time. Hopefully you have more than one invention. At least that is my plan, not to mention years of personal documentation. When you give somthing away people see it as having no worth. Like putting a sofa on the curb with a sign saying free sofa. Likely it will just sit there. If you put a sign on it saying $100 likely someone will buy it or steal it fairly soon. Hopefully one day man will invent a way to invent so even the least of us can have a say, get published, and make a few bucks too. The way things are now it does not look likely anytime in the near future but I have vowed to try and do something about it one day if I can. Things are set up for the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer. It is an evil world. I picture a website where it is all covered and anyone can enter and place an idea. Then it goes through the gauntlet of public disclosure, research, and prior art. If it makes it then it is placed on what I all the "Pedestal of Thought" where the Scientific Method is used to figure it out. The Scientific Method is important because it is best if the inventor or theorists is not involved with proof or disproof. That is the job of "real scientists", who aren't out to prove or disprove anything, just in doing the scientific tests in an unbiased way and let the data speak for itself. Unfortunalely today we have lost sense of the scientific method; theorists propose, scientists dispose. We have theorists pretending to be scientists and scientists pretending to be theorists. This has led us to the brink of distruction as a civilization and mass pollution. But we are entering a new time and maybe things will change. I hope so and best of luck. David Dennard Theorist http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: Tgsleath aol.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower. Reply to tony_1959 hotmail.com >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:02:38 EST > >Hi Colin, > >Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. It is very important that the >public at large know about this, and that you receive at least some reward. >May I suggest the following: > >Create your own web site promoting this concept, and exchange links with >related sites. > >Publish what you know in book form (spiral bound is fine) and charge what >you >feel is appropriate. Include photos if possible. And all test results. >Offer it for sale on your web site. Borderland Science may also be >interested. > >This stuff is too good to let slip through the cracks. > >Trevor > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:48:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10976; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:44:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:44:57 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <387B9691.1F5550C1 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:46:09 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154@mail.eden.com> <387A7877.60658C77@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"_ZtM02.0.Hh2.uWuUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MINOR SUBTHREAD: Scott Little wrote: Good thinking, Hamdi. The light (ray, beam, stream of photons or whatever ... Jack Smith wrote: It does seem to matter whether or not we are talking about particles or waves ... Scott Little wrote: OK, I should have said "whatever WAVELIKE". Jack writes: Would a photon be considered a "particle" because a force could be exerted on it as it passes from one medium into another? MAJOR SUBTHREAD: Scott Little wrote: ...The reason we have to tilt our telescopes away from the true location of a distant star by the aberration angle (about 20 seconds of arc) is because the Earth moves a noticeable amount during the time light is traveling down the telescope ... Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Shouldn't this be Earth's motion relative to the star, and not just orbital velocity around the sun? Scott Little wrote: Yes, ... However, Earth's orbital velocity is the only major component of that velocity that has a reasonably short periodicity (i.e. it reverses sign every 6 months). It's really the variation in aberration that we observe...not absolute aberration. Our fast galatic velocity just provides a ?DC? offset that we typically ignore. Jack Smith wrote: I don't see how aberration has anything to do with "the tine light is travelling down the telescope." Scott Little wrote: Look at this version of the same drawings you were making. [ (modified) Star | | \ \ \ \ angled telescope <--------|---|------------ Earth's orbital velocity ] b a The stationary source of light (star) is directly overhead and the telescope on Earth is passing under it. The light hitting us now has been on its way from the star for a while. We want the telescope to see light emitted by the star. Jack Smith writes: What difference does it make how long the light from the star has been on its way? When you say "The stationary source of light (star) is directly overhead" do you mean that the star has zero aberration, that is, this is the "true" position of the star? Scott Little wrote: When the light enters the upper end of the telescope, the eyepiece is at "a". The light travels straight down while the telescope travels to the [left] such that, when the light gets to the bottom of the telescope, the eyepiece is at "b" and the light goes thru the eyepiece. The telescope is inclined at the aberration angle ... Jack Smith writes: Since the aberration is zero, the telescope would be verticle. This seems to relate to the problem Scott originally proposed: "A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it enters the water?" Mitchell Jones wrote: ... Each wavefront will remain parallel to the surface after it enters the water, but it will also be displaced slightly to the right of the previous wavefront if, say, the surface of the water is moving rapidly to the left. Result: if the water is moving to the left rapidly enough, the *nonrefracted beam* will angle to the left as it passes down through the moving water (or sheet of glass), and will emerge from the bottom at a point displaced to the left of where it entered. It [the beam] will, however, emerge from the bottom moving perpendicular to the water ... Jack writes: Are the verticle telescope and the moving tank of water essentially the same experiment? How about water moving horizontally in a stationary transparent trough? This would be an easier experiment to do. Would this be the same situation? Even though it is still not obvious to me how the "aberration" mentioned above has anything to do with "the tine light is travelling down the telescope," if the star (light source) is considered to be at the top of the telescope, there may be a "transit delay" relating to the beam of light coming down the telescope. Would not this require an exceptionally narrow beam? If such a beam could exist, there might be some secondary aberration occuring from the top of the telescope to the eyepiece. Much more plausible to me is a "wavefront" filling the telescope from one side (in 2 dimensions) to the other. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:57:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18746; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:53:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:53:42 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387B70D8.3B87 ca-ois.com> References: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:49:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous Images Resent-Message-ID: <"UL98H3.0.oa4.1fuUu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Jim Ostrowski wrote: >> >> > >> >Since I assured Smith that we Vortexians were among the most enlightened >> >association of scientists and engineers available anywhere, I would >> >appreciate if we treat Smith, who admits he is not a "professional" >> >"scientist" with the respect due anyone who joined in with a new and >> >unsusual "crackpot" theory, backed up by real experiment. I'm not asking >> >anyone to accept Smith's ideas out of hand, be as critical as you need >> >be, however downgrading his ideas because they do not align with our own >> >notions of what is "impossible" because of our own "pet theories" (such >> >as the alleged "principle" of continuity) will be vigorously challenged >> >by me persanally, complete with my judgemental evaluations of >> >hypocritical attitudes not in keeping with "The Spirit of Vortex". >> > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> ***{The principle of continuity is a valid analytical perspective until >> someone demonstrates the contrary, and no one has done that thus far, or >> even come close. > >It would appear to me that Smith's results refutes your "principle" of >continuity, unless I do not understand that idea correctly. ***{As I have pointed out repeatedly, no experimental result can demonstrate the possibility of things leaping into existence out of nothing or vanishing into nothing, because if that were possible, we would have no basis for believing that the experiment ever happened. (The information which convinced you that it happened could have simply leaped into existence out of nothing, or, what would have the same effect, your knowledge of what was wrong with the experiment could have simply vanished into nothing.) --Mitchell Jones}*** You have >admitted in our previous discussion of that topic that the "principle of >continuity" precludes anything from coming into "existence" out of >"nothing", but that does not mean the same thing as precluding the >notion that something can come into existence out of the "unknown". > >The two terms then,"nothing" and "the unknown", are two entirely >different and discernable concepts, according to our resolution of that >debate. Therefore if I were to argue that some hypothetical experimental >results appear to show evidence that objects can come into "existence" >by means of as yet "unknown" or little understood mechanism (as when an >object, appearing in one location, "disappears" then at a later time, >appears at a new location) this would not be in conflict with your >"principle". ***{Absolutely correct. If so called "quantum discontinuities" are merely apparent--i.e., if the "quantum object" merely *seems* to vanish from its position at A and reappear at B, while in fact traveling over a continuous pathway from A to B--then my principle is satisfied. But, of course, in that case the claims of "quantum mechanics" are wrong. --MJ}*** > >Therefore, I don't see anything for us to debate about. Your "principle" >is not relevant to the issue, because it only applies to the idea of >things coming into existence out of a hypothetical "nothing" which is >exclusive of the set of locations or cicumtstances defined by the word >"unknown", correct? ***{Um, not exactly. One thing *is* known: that in some form at some velocity, each and every part of the "quantum object" must travel via a continuous pathway from A to B. It is the precise nature of the path or paths, and the natures of the parts of the object, and whether they all follow the same paths, how fast they travel, etc., that is unknown. It is *not* unknown that, one way or another, everything that moves from A to B gets there by following continuous spatial pathways, because failure to do so would require that the object or one of its parts should vanish from its position at one location and reappear at another. That, as I have conclusively and repeatedly demonstrated, would violate the principle of continuity, and pull down the entire structure of human knowledge. It is wrong, and there aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. --MJ}*** > >> I therefore have as much right to argue from that >> perspective as others have to argue from theirs, and you can bet your >> bottom dollar that I will continue to do so, when I feel that it is >> appropriate, whether you like it or not. > >Fire away, Mitchell. You have my post, to which you have only decided to >respond to the addendum of, and not to any of the substantive >information I provided. Explain the photographs, if you can. ***{I have no interest in ferreting out the error which led to that silly conclusion, for two reasons: (a) as noted above, the principle of continuity is foundational to the entire structure of human knowledge, and, as such, is not subject to refutation by experiment; (b) too much is known about motion in the microcosm for there to be any possibility whatsoever that motion is discontinuous on any scale as large as a 60,000th of a second. --MJ}*** > >> As for your threat to continue >> introducing pejoratives into discussions (e.g., by hurling charges of >> "hypocricy") if others employ analytical perspectives with which you >> disagree, I would suggest that you would do better to keep demeaning >> comments about your opponents' characters and the goings on in their >> streams of consciousness *out* of your messages, > >Speaking of which, calling people "evil" who engage in streams of >consciousness defined by you as "selective" thinking, is the antithesis >of the behaviour you just described, therefore you again show yourself >to be "hypocritical". ***{In order to permit a polite discussion of the nature of evil and the application of the resulting insights to explain the mistreatment of scientific heretics, it is necessary merely that the participants refrain from initiating a conflict by applying the label of "evil" their opponents, and I have done that. --MJ}*** If you say that I am "evil" when I engage in >"selective thinking", you are hypocritical when you engage in the >behaviour you have just condemned as being "evil", above. ***{It would be if I did that, assuming that I were not responding to a pejorative hurled at me by you. However, since you have repeatedly introduced character-related pejoratives into our discussions--as you are doing right now with your assertions about hypocrisy, as a matter of fact--I could legitimately engage in a detailed dissection of your thought processes and motivations before this group, and you wouldn't have the slightest grounds for complaint. The fact that I thus far have come no closer than an occasional mild comment about "wishful thinking" is merely due to my lack of interest in your thought processes. If I decide to become much more explicit in the future, you will have not a shred of a ground to complain. Your allegations of hypocrisy are and will continue to be false, because I never claimed that I would not return fire, only that I would not fire first. --MJ}*** > >> until and unless similar >> negative speculations have first been made about you. The purpose of this >> group is to discuss concepts and issues relating to anomalous science, not >> to conduct flame wars, and a diversity of analytic perspectives should be >> encouraged here. > >Oh, sure. No problem. > >> If vortexians were interested in flame wars aimed at >> enforcing a uniformity of analytic approach, they would simply divert their >> posts to some usenet cesspool such as sci.physics.fusion, and terminate >> their subscriptions to this group. If you prefer that sort of environment, >> I would advise you to do just that. --Mitchell Jones}** > >I once subscribed to the usenet newsgroup alt.sci.physics.new-theories, >which was probably a more amicable place than this one for me since you >were not participatiing there at the time. At least there, I never had >to try to refute someone's suggestion that I might be "evil" because I >didn't think like they did. ***{I have discussed the nature of evil without initiating a discussion of the character of any specific individual in this group, including you, and the relatively mild reproofs that I have leveled at you were in response to pejoratives introduced by you. If you think my framework suggests that you are evil incarnate, that is the judgment of your mind, not a statement made by me. --MJ}*** I beginning to think that any place you are >not is where I should be. > >However, you being a minority of exactly one versus the whole rest of >the group ***{Since you obviously did not poll the entire group, how do you presume to speak for those not polled? Sounds like another instance of wishful thinking to me. :-) --MJ}*** who have been very helpful and courteous, I think I'll stay >on. ***{Shock of shocks. :-) --MJ}*** > >Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 12:03:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16437; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:00:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:00:40 -0800 Message-ID: <387B8ACA.385D ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:55:54 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: tony_1959 hotmail.com Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"p2jK12.0.l04.eluUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >8. Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with > >microwaves > >should also work well in a converted turbine. > > > >SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!! > > ***{This idea looks wrong to me. Before any of you guys get too excited > about it, I would suggest doing a simple test: buy yourself a small power > company line meter (about $50 from a typical supplier), modify it to plug > into your wall socket, and then plug your microwave oven into it. Measure > the temperature of a glass of water, place it in your microwave, set the > timer for an interval long enough to boil away most of the water, do the > test, and then compare power in to power out. I sincerely hope that power > out will be *much* greater than power in, but I doubt it. --MJ}*** > Good idea. I would add that in mw ovens, water will have a tendency to boil so rapidly after a short time that a lot of it sloshes out of the cup and ends up on the floor of the oven, where it then becomes part of the cavity wall and will not boil off very fast in that circumstance. A way around this might be to fit the top of the cup with a sponge or something that will not allow the water to slosh out, but I'm not sure if the sponge wouldn't just be blown off as well. There is evidence that water boiled by microwaves behaves somewhat differently than water boiled by coffee cup heaters and such. I've noticed the effect which occurs when you pour say sugar into a cup nearly heated to boiling via mwaves, the water will foam and occasionally exhibit "explosive" behaviour. Jim O. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 12:13:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20897; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:11:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:11:30 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:10:44 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LeTKR2.0.M65.nvuUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin The energy in a Tank circuit sloshes between the inductance and the capacitance. The current and the voltage are out of phase. The equations are E = 1/2 L I^2 = 1/2 C V^2. Hank On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:25:43 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Hi Frederick, > [snip] > >Potential, V = (E/(0.5*C)^1/2 = 1.022E6 volts > > Wouldn't you expect the inductance to also represent part of the total > energy? > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 12:50:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03206; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:47:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:47:27 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387B8ACA.385D ca-ois.com> References: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:43:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Water powered lawn mower. Resent-Message-ID: <"X_T3Y1.0.0o.URvUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> > >> >8. Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with >> >microwaves >> >should also work well in a converted turbine. >> > >> >SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!! >> >> ***{This idea looks wrong to me. Before any of you guys get too excited >> about it, I would suggest doing a simple test: buy yourself a small power >> company line meter (about $50 from a typical supplier), modify it to plug >> into your wall socket, and then plug your microwave oven into it. Measure >> the temperature of a glass of water, place it in your microwave, set the >> timer for an interval long enough to boil away most of the water, do the >> test, and then compare power in to power out. I sincerely hope that power >> out will be *much* greater than power in, but I doubt it. --MJ}*** >> > >Good idea. I would add that in mw ovens, water will have a tendency to >boil so rapidly after a short time that a lot of it sloshes out of the >cup and ends up on the floor of the oven, where it then becomes part of >the cavity wall and will not boil off very fast in that circumstance. A >way around this might be to fit the top of the cup with a sponge or >something that will not allow the water to slosh out, but I'm not sure >if the sponge wouldn't just be blown off as well. > >There is evidence that water boiled by microwaves behaves somewhat >differently than water boiled by coffee cup heaters and such. I've >noticed the effect which occurs when you pour say sugar into a cup >nearly heated to boiling via mwaves, the water will foam >and occasionally exhibit "explosive" behaviour. > >Jim O. ***{A very tall glass, filled only to the 25% level or so, coupled with a lower power setting, should solve the spattering problem, though I think I would fit a piece of impermeable plastic to the top and punch a few holes in it, just to be sure. And if, as I expect, such a setup will *not* produce "over unity" numbers, I would not give up. Instead, I would consider the possibility that something odd is happening inside the cylinder walls of the lawn mower engine--that, perhaps, CF is being induced by the reverberations of the microwaves inside the metal cavity. Thus if the boiloff in the glass container is not over unity, I would then test a glass with chunks of the types of metal contained in cylinder wall immersed in the water. And if that failed, I would pull a magnetron out of an old microwave, place it over the mouth of a metal cylinder, and boil water under *those* conditions. (Being careful to surround the apparatus with a suitable microwave absorber, of course.) It would be worthwhile to test various metals under these conditions, in order to be *very* sure that, if you declared that this doesn't work, your conclusion would be justified. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 12:51:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04563; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:50:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:50:47 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:50:30 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Wattmeter Search To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"5KXQG2.0.971.cUvUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/11/00 6:43:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: > Mike Schaeffer's right...the meter needs to be closest to ground. I looked > up the DD1 input module and found that its two voltage input channels are > positive-only and have a common ground. That means your circuit will have > to look like this: > > HOT+ > | > | > BALLAST LAMPS > | > ----------------------| > D | | > I \ DISCHARGE TUBE > V / | > I \ DD1(1)----| > D / / > E |--DD1(2) \ > R / / CURRENT SENSING R > \ \ > | | > GROUND GROUND > > The voltage measured by channel 2 of the DD1 will (after correction for the > divider) be equal to the voltage across BOTH the discharge tube AND the > current shunt. Not a problem Scott. I spoke with Martin Ibarra at Texmate this morning and he is configuring the DD-1 module with a 1 ohm precision shunt resistor for the milliamp sense. The V input side of the DD-1 will use the 0 to 35 volt output from my existing voltage divider. He is programming and calibrating the meter to account for the 100 to 1 divider network so the meter will display actual watts delivered to the glow discharge tube. > With the DD1's non-isolated positive-only input channels I > believe this is your only choice. Fortunately it should be relatively easy > to make the additional voltage drop across the current sensing R negligible > compared to the voltage across the tube. Again, no problem as the shunt resistor value is 1 ohm. > Since you want to measure 200 mA, perhaps a 5 ohm R should be used > ...that would provide a 1 volt signal for 200 mA. > BTW, that R should be overrated wattage-wise (your max wattage > would be .2 watts) and of the "precision resistor" type in order to obtain > a nice low temperature coefficient. I've got a jillion 10.00 ohm 1/4 watt > precision resistors around here somewhere, I could send you 8 of them which > you could connect in pairs to make four 20 ohm resistors and then connect > all four of those assemblies in parallel to make a composite 5 ohm resistor > with good power dissipation and temperature stability. Thanks, but I think I ( and Texmate ) have the shunt resistor problem solved. > Another issue is signal jitter. Have you looked at the voltage or current > signals with a scope while the experiment is running? Are they pretty > steady or is it a mess of noise? In the latter case, you'll want some RC > filtering of the signals before you feed them into the DD1 (thanks to Robin > for suggesting this to me). I've learned, painfully, not to use > electrolytics for this purpose. Their leakage can "drag" signals down > noticeably. I've got some great mylar capacitors for this purpose that you > can have. Here we have to pay attention to the input impedance of the DD1 > which I believe is 1 megohm. In that case, I suggest a 10k R as the series > R and a .22 mfd mylar (ones I happen to have a lot of!) to ground right > "after" the R. That gives you a 2.2 millisecond filtering time constant > which effectively removes "fast" noise from the signal and only introduces > a 0.1% error in the value measured by the DD1. Now that would be appreciated Scott. The signals _are_ a mess of noise. I have been using 5 MFD AC computer grade electrolytics for filtering but I like your idea of mylar caps. I gratefully accept your offer of the RC components. You can mail them to: Vince Cockeram 9616 Chianti Lane Las Vegas, NV 89117 > > >With some help from Scott Little I also plan to construct a servo loop > >to control the Variac on the HV power supply. That will fully automate > >control of power delivered to the glow tube. > > The only competent help I can provide on this is to coach you on a BASIC > program to execute the servo control in the old PC you're going to get. > That's how I did it. I don't have the analog electronics experience to > design an electronic servo control. However, I would like very much to > learn and, in fact, have some projects on the back burner that need such > controls (such as an emission control circuit for the ion source for my > particle accelerator). I am going to hold off on the servo loop control for the moment as John Schnurer is sending me a schematic for a solid state Variac that has a continuously variable no spike output that will handle an inductive load. Fred also has me looking at saturable magnetic reactor control of the AC input to the HV supply. He suggested using one of my spare HV transformers with the primary in series with the load and DC across the secondary winding as control. I hope there is not a smoked DC power supply in my future! > > So many things to do...so little time. > Only problem I do have at this point is having to completely redo all the neat wiring in the tube enclosure to give the correct signals to the Texmate meter...sigh... One day at a time Scott...at least I can say we are making progress. Back to the bench now. > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > Best Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 13:03:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09175; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:02:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:02:02 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:01:18 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Placebos in N.Y. Times In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000109214415.007a4eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"n4_4r1.0.CF2.9fvUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed I think you are refering to an experiment run at Western Electric in the thirties, and in Quality Control circles it is known as the "Western Electric Effect". Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 13:04:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09045; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:01:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:01:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:01:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA09016 Resent-Message-ID: <"6RFQ72.0.DD2.-evUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:10:44 -0800 (PST), hank scudder wrote: >Robin > The energy in a Tank circuit sloshes between the inductance and >the capacitance. The current and the voltage are out of phase. The >equations are E = 1/2 L I^2 = 1/2 C V^2. > >Hank Yes, I know Hank. It was getting late, and I had forgotten that Frederick was talking about an AC situation. However the possibility also exists that it isn't an AC, but rather a DC situation, in which case the energy is indeed shared between the two components, rather than sloshing back and forth. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 13:10:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12534; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:09:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:09:14 -0800 Message-ID: <00dc01bf5c80$647c4be0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:08:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"oST2e.0.m33.vlvUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: hank scudder To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Particles and Tank Circuits in the Aether Hank scudder wrote: > Robin > The energy in a Tank circuit sloshes between the inductance and > the capacitance. The current and the voltage are out of phase. The > equations are E = 1/2 L I^2 = 1/2 C V^2. That is true for "hardware tank circuits", Hank, but the Vacuum only has need of capacitance, C (8.84E-12 farad/meter) and potential V. However, the displacement current, I = C dV/dt gives it (creates) the Apparent Inductance L = 4(pi)E-7 Henry/Meter, and the charge q = CV is a constant (+/-)1.602E-19 Coulombs (invariant in any reference frame). Thus as C goes to Zero, V goes to Infinity. But, still, the Hardware Tank Circuit or a Circular Section of a Transmission line is a good model for the fundamental particles. Regards, Frederick > > Hank > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 04:25:43 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Hi Frederick, > > [snip] > > >Potential, V = (E/(0.5*C)^1/2 = 1.022E6 volts > > > > Wouldn't you expect the inductance to also represent part of the total > > energy? > > [snip] > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 13:18:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15610; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:17:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:17:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:14:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mizuno300 Run 4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4iz0N2.0.lp3.6uvUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's another attempt at doing the calorimetry in the way that M&O did it for the article in IE #27, but this time with a quartz vessel and a small fan directly on the cell as Mizuno uses. http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run4/run4.html We got our usual result on this run, suggesting that Conservation of Energy still holds in the year 2000. It is interesting to compare these results with similar results from M&O. There is no one thing that stands out as different. Their cells produce more steam than ours, consume less current than ours, and lose more heat through the walls than ours. These three factors make the difference between ~240% gain in their case and an energy balance in our case. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 13:31:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20195; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:29:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:29:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111152627.017e2264 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:26:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: relativity teaser In-Reply-To: <387B9691.1F5550C1 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154 mail.eden.com> <387A7877.60658C77 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TWfla2.0.Sx4.J3wUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:46 PM 1/11/00 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Would a photon be considered a "particle" because >a force could be exerted on it as it passes from >one medium into another? I don't know. >What difference does it make how long the light >from the star has been on its way? None. I just threw that in for completeness so you wouldn't complain that light can't travel instantly from the directly-overhead star to the Earth. >When you say >"The stationary source of light (star) is directly overhead" >do you mean that the star has zero aberration, that is, this >is the "true" position of the star? Confusing. Yes, "Directly overhead" is the true position of the star. However, because of aberration we don't see it as directly overhead but rather 20" away. >Since the aberration is zero, the telescope would be verticle. The aberration is not zero. It is the full 20" of arc created by Earth's orbital velocity. Because of this aberration, a telescope has to be inclined at an angle of 20" towards our orbital heading in order to receive the light from a star that is actually directly overhead. >This seems to relate to the problem Scott originally proposed: The velocity-induced refraction is only necessary to explain the fine details of the Airy water-filled telescope experiment. You are apparently still confused about the basic phenomenon of aberration so let's focus on that for now: Star | | | | | / / / / / / angled telescope / / --------|---|------------> Earth's orbital velocity a b When the light enters the upper end of the telescope, the eyepiece is at "a". The light travels straight down while the telescope travels to the right such that, when the light gets to the bottom of the telescope, the eyepiece is at "b" and the light goes thru the eyepiece. The telescope is inclined at the aberration angle. OK? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 13:51:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27521; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:50:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:50:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:50:07 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser In-Reply-To: <387B9691.1F5550C1 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"q1dx43.0.wj6.zMwUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott If I am traveling with the tank of water, floating on it for example, and my sextant reads ninety degrees, relative to the surface, The suns rays will travel straight down. They will hit the spot on the bottom directly under the sun. If I put on my scuba mask, and read the sextant on the bottom, it will still read ninety degrees. Hank On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > MINOR SUBTHREAD: > > Scott Little wrote: > > Good thinking, Hamdi. The light (ray, beam, stream of > photons or whatever ... > > Jack Smith wrote: > > It does seem to matter whether or not we are talking about > particles or waves ... > > Scott Little wrote: > > OK, I should have said "whatever WAVELIKE". > > Jack writes: > > Would a photon be considered a "particle" because > a force could be exerted on it as it passes from > one medium into another? > > MAJOR SUBTHREAD: > > Scott Little wrote: > > ...The reason we have to tilt our telescopes away from the > true location of a distant star by the aberration angle > (about 20 seconds of arc) is because the Earth moves > a noticeable amount during the time light is traveling > down the telescope ... > > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > Shouldn't this be Earth's motion relative to the star, > and not just orbital velocity around the sun? > > Scott Little wrote: > > Yes, ... However, Earth's orbital > velocity is the only major component of > that velocity that has a reasonably short periodicity > (i.e. it reverses sign every 6 months). > > It's really the variation in aberration that we observe...not > absolute aberration. Our fast galatic velocity just provides a ?DC? > offset that we typically ignore. > > Jack Smith wrote: > > I don't see how aberration has anything to do with > "the tine light is travelling down the telescope." > > Scott Little wrote: > > Look at this version of the same drawings you were making. > > [ (modified) Star > | > | > \ \ > \ \ angled telescope > <--------|---|------------ Earth's orbital velocity ] > b a > > The stationary source of light (star) is directly overhead > and the telescope on Earth is passing under it. > > The light hitting us now has been on its way from the > star for a while. We want the telescope to see light > emitted by the star. > > Jack Smith writes: > > What difference does it make how long the light > from the star has been on its way? When you say > "The stationary source of light (star) is directly overhead" > do you mean that the star has zero aberration, that is, this > is the "true" position of the star? > > Scott Little wrote: > > When the light enters the upper end of the telescope, the eyepiece is at > "a". The light travels straight down while the telescope travels to the > [left] such that, when the light gets to the bottom of the telescope, > the eyepiece is at "b" and the light goes thru the eyepiece. > > The telescope is inclined at the aberration angle ... > > Jack Smith writes: > > Since the aberration is zero, the telescope would be verticle. > This seems to relate to the problem Scott originally proposed: > > "A ray of light travelling vertically downwards enters (exactly > perpendicular to the surface) a tank of water that is moving > horizontally at velocity v. Does the light ray bend as it > enters the water?" > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ... Each wavefront will remain parallel > to the surface after it enters the > water, but it will also be displaced slightly to the > right of the previous wavefront if, say, the surface > of the water is moving rapidly to the left. > > Result: if the water is moving to the left rapidly enough, > the *nonrefracted beam* will angle to the left as it passes > down through the moving water (or sheet of glass), and > will emerge from the bottom at a point displaced to the > left of where it entered. > > It [the beam] will, however, emerge from > the bottom moving perpendicular to the water ... > > Jack writes: > > Are the verticle telescope and the moving tank of water > essentially the same experiment? > > How about water moving horizontally in a stationary > transparent trough? This would be an easier > experiment to do. Would this be the same situation? > > Even though it is still not obvious to me how > the "aberration" mentioned above has anything to do with > "the tine light is travelling down the telescope," > if the star (light source) is considered to be at the > top of the telescope, there may be a "transit delay" > relating to the beam of light coming down the telescope. > Would not this require an exceptionally narrow beam? > > If such a beam could exist, there might be some secondary > aberration occuring from the top of the telescope to the > eyepiece. Much more plausible to me is a "wavefront" > filling the telescope from one side (in 2 dimensions) to > the other. > > Jack Smith > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:11:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02944; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:10:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:10:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000111171029.0079e5c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:10:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, editor@infinite-energy.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Fortean Times reviews Cold Fusion: Fire from Water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5itTb.0.rj.PfwUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone told me that the latest issue of Fortean Times includes a favorable review of our videotape "Cold Fusion: Fire from Water." I have not seen it yet, but I'll bop over to a bookstore and buy one. I like the Fortean Times. They have published some great stuff. I like their advice to NASA, which is to emphasize the gee-whiz, face-on-Mars extraterrestrial stuff, because the public laps it up, and the public is paying their bills, not these stuffy academics. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:11:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02421; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:10:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:10:11 -0800 Message-ID: <387BA979.4D9D ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:06:49 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous Images References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WrUiy2.0.lb.2fwUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >> ***{The principle of continuity is a valid analytical perspective until > >> someone demonstrates the contrary, and no one has done that thus far, or > >> even come close. > > > >It would appear to me that Smith's results refutes your "principle" of > >continuity, unless I do not understand that idea correctly. > > ***{As I have pointed out repeatedly, no experimental result can > demonstrate the possibility of things leaping into existence out of nothing > or vanishing into nothing, because if that were possible, we would have no > basis for believing that the experiment ever happened. If an object were to suddenly appear by registering at one position on a photographic plate, then at a given time later register on the plate at an entirely new and differnt location, and repeated this behaviour several times, and later the object were recovered, one could reasonably infer that the experiment occurred. Whether or not the "principle of continuity" could account for this behaviour in a reasonable way, is quite another question, which you have apparently decided not to address. > (The information > which convinced you that it happened could have simply leaped into > existence out of nothing, or, what would have the same effect, your > knowledge of what was wrong with the experiment could have simply vanished > into nothing.) --Mitchell Jones}*** Which you have agreed is not the point at issue anyway, if the words "nothing" and "the unknown" are not interchangeable. > You have > >admitted in our previous discussion of that topic that the "principle of > >continuity" precludes anything from coming into "existence" out of > >"nothing", but that does not mean the same thing as precluding the > >notion that something can come into existence out of the "unknown". > > > >The two terms then,"nothing" and "the unknown", are two entirely > >different and discernable concepts, according to our resolution of that > >debate. Therefore if I were to argue that some hypothetical experimental > >results appear to show evidence that objects can come into "existence" > >by means of as yet "unknown" or little understood mechanism (as when an > >object, appearing in one location, "disappears" then at a later time, > >appears at a new location) this would not be in conflict with your > >"principle". > > ***{Absolutely correct. If so called "quantum discontinuities" are merely > apparent--i.e., if the "quantum object" merely *seems* to vanish from its > position at A and reappear at B, while in fact traveling over a continuous > pathway from A to B--then my principle is satisfied. But, of course, in > that case the claims of "quantum mechanics" are wrong. --MJ}*** I am not responsible for defending "claims" alleged to be atributable to unspecified supporters of "quantum mechanics". If you can point to the book and page number of the reference you have a problem with, do so. Otherwise, you are thrusting at shadows. > >Therefore, I don't see anything for us to debate about. Your "principle" > >is not relevant to the issue, because it only applies to the idea of > >things coming into existence out of a hypothetical "nothing" which is > >exclusive of the set of locations or cicumtstances defined by the word > >"unknown", correct? > > ***{Um, not exactly. One thing *is* known: that in some form at some > velocity, each and every part of the "quantum object" must travel via a > continuous pathway from A to B. It is the precise nature of the path or > paths, and the natures of the parts of the object, and whether they all > follow the same paths, how fast they travel, etc., that is unknown. It is > *not* unknown that, one way or another, everything that moves from A to B > gets there by following continuous spatial pathways, because failure to do > so would require that the object or one of its parts should vanish from its > position at one location and reappear at another. Which is exactly what appears to happen in the photographs. The point of re-introducing this issue was NOT to attempt to assert Smith's explanations for what is happening as dogma or as an irrefutable "principle" but rather to stimulate discussion of the "unknown" process, so we can find out how it works. If we can find that out, maybe we will learn something. If learning something does not interest you, go away and don't bother us. > That, as I have > conclusively and repeatedly demonstrated, would violate the principle of > continuity, and pull down the entire structure of human knowledge. OK. How about this, Mitchell: I'll agree that an effect event is the result of a cause event, although cause events cannot be joined together _continuously_ with effect events because they must be interrupted by a process of information transfer from the causing object to the effected object. There are no information transfer intervals possible where the process of information transfer takes time t=0. Time t=0 is not an "interval", by definition. IE: Cause events and effect events are joined together by a process of information transfer that takes a certain amount of time to complete, therefore because that is true, the duration intervals of cause events are separate and _discontinuous_ from the duration intervals of effect events, but cause and effect are connected _continuously_ in time by the information transfer interval, during which "unknown" processes can occur. Does the above idea satisfy your "principle of continuity"? > It is > wrong, and there aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. --MJ}*** > Not demonstrated. > > > >> I therefore have as much right to argue from that > >> perspective as others have to argue from theirs, and you can bet your > >> bottom dollar that I will continue to do so, when I feel that it is > >> appropriate, whether you like it or not. > > > >Fire away, Mitchell. You have my post, to which you have only decided to > >respond to the addendum of, and not to any of the substantive > >information I provided. Explain the photographs, if you can. > > ***{I have no interest in ferreting out the error Well, I AM interested in ferreting out the error, if there is one, so go away. > which led to that silly conclusion, Your offhand characterization of Smith's conclusion (as "silly) is exactly counter to Vortex's charter, wherein it is agreed we will treat all serious investigators and experimenters with respect. By violating this agreement you show your true colors, and that you are unfit to call yourself a "scientist". You are an unabashed dogamtist, exactly the kind of person you accuse others of being, to your own dishonor. > for two reasons: I do not care what your reasons are, if you are doing nothing but posting your remarks in order to create dilatory non productive bickering, you are not needed by either me or Smith. We do not ask your help. Do something else with your life. Like others in this group have decided to resign your posts to a permenent trash filter, I think this is where comments like yours above belong. Goodbye..... JO From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:13:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05212; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:13:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:13:04 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:12:17 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit In-Reply-To: <007401bf5b6c$92f21f00$698e1d26 fjsparber> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"oo7bl.0.MH1.lhwUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick You need a multiplier circuit to measure power, not a summing or integrating one. Hank On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Using a voltage divider to measure the DC voltage in a circuit, V and a dropping > resistor to measure a voltage proportional to the DC current, I, two integrating Op Amps > to multiply V*I feeding a resistance summing circuit will give an output equal to power, P: > > P = VI = integral Vo to V I dV + integral Io to I V dI > > With 0 to 5 vdc for V and I, What would the Op Amp circuits feeding a summing circuit and a > voltmeter look like? > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:17:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06224; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:14:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:14:48 -0800 Message-ID: <010401bf5c89$912ec6a0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:13:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"csNAA1.0.AX1.OjwUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 1:14 PM Subject: Mizuno300 Run 4 How do you or M&O account for the light/photon energy radiated out of the test vessel, Scott? Frederick > Here's another attempt at doing the calorimetry in the way that M&O did it > for the article in IE #27, but this time with a quartz vessel and a small > fan directly on the cell as Mizuno uses. > > http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run4/run4.html > > We got our usual result on this run, suggesting that Conservation of Energy > still holds in the year 2000. > > It is interesting to compare these results with similar results from M&O. > There is no one thing that stands out as different. Their cells produce > more steam than ours, consume less current than ours, and lose more heat > through the walls than ours. These three factors make the difference > between ~240% gain in their case and an energy balance in our case. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:20:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09013; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:19:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:19:17 -0800 Message-ID: <010c01bf5c8a$31a1e900$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:18:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ReaBL3.0.jC2.anwUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: hank scudder To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit Hank wrote: > Frederick > You need a multiplier circuit to measure power, not a summing or > integrating one. As Stated you can use Two integrators Plus a Summing Circuit to effect Multiplication, Analog computing 101. :-) Frederick > > Hank > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Using a voltage divider to measure the DC voltage in a circuit, V and a dropping > > resistor to measure a voltage proportional to the DC current, I, two integrating Op Amps > > to multiply V*I feeding a resistance summing circuit will give an output equal to power, P: > > > > P = VI = integral Vo to V I dV + integral Io to I V dI > > > > With 0 to 5 vdc for V and I, What would the Op Amp circuits feeding a summing circuit and a > > voltmeter look like? > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:55:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19078; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:48:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:48:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000111172543.00790d20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:25:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <010401bf5c89$912ec6a0$6f441d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Z4q5-2.0.xf4.vCxUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >How do you or M&O account for the light/photon energy radiated out >of the test vessel, Scott? In most experiments, they ignore this. Perhaps they should try to measure it. In the well-insulated test, the cell is pyrex glass and insulation is opaque, so I guess the insulating layer facing the glass heats up. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 15:20:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27371; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:19:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:19:00 -0800 Message-Id: <200001112225.RAA23789 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: Anomalous Images Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:21:20 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9c52c.0.Mh6.ZfxUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > because failure to do > > so would require that the object or one of its parts should vanish from its > > position at one location and reappear at another. > > Which is exactly what appears to happen in the photographs. Motion is not discontinuous to much less than at least .005x10^-6 seconds. I know this from personal experience using an analog phosphor type 100Mhz oscilloscope. The time for a trace to occur from one end of the oscilloscope to the other end is frequently far smaller than 1/70000th of a second. If there were discontinuity, it would be observed in the way the electron beam excited the phosphor screen of the oscilloscope. Nothing of this nature is found. The trace is not chopped into tiny segments on the screen every 1/70000th of a second. --Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 15:20:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27018; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:18:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:18:15 -0800 Message-Id: <200001112318.SAA09593 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: TEST -- ignore Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:13:51 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k_s6W.0.4c6.texUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Test. Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 15:26:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29640; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:24:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:24:33 -0800 Message-ID: <387BBAE7.72C0 ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:21:11 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous Images References: <3.0.1.32.20000111104628.01cebf04 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YaICM1.0._E7.mkxUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 12:24 AM 1/11/00 -0800, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > >Fellow Vortexians, > > > >Two momths ago, I invited everyone to review the evidence for > >"Discontinuity of Motion" (motion quantization) posted at the site: > > > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html > > > >The response to this invititation was a mixture of incredulity, helpful > >suggestions, constructive criticism, and derision. I could attach names > >to each of these categories, however, this is unnecessary since I'm sure > >you all know who you are. > > I'm in there somewhere...:) Yes, you are both incredulity and constructive criticism, Scott. A helpful skeptic. Interestingly, Jim, I recently found two > papers on the LANL eprint server by Gao Shan: > > http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0001013 > > http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0001012 > > which discuss this very issue but strictly on a quantum level. Shan > maintains that motion is essentially discontinous at the quantum level and > that all the difficulties in accepting QM (such as Einstein had) are a > result of obstinately clinging to the idea of continuous classical motion. > I think he's got a good point (at least I have difficulty accepting QM!) > and it's worth reading his papers (the 013 one is only 2 pages long). > Thanks, I'll check it out! > However, because of the relatively large size of bullets and BB's, the > phenomena that you are exploring are totally classical and could NEVER be > explained by quantum effects. I still think the images could be a result > of some kind of ringing phenomenon in the strobe light. Well, that was the point of having it calibrated and graphed with an oscilloscope. While there does appear to be some of this ringing behaviour in the 1/70000 second runs, none of that appears in the 1/2000 second or blinded quenching circuit sensor runs. This is why I wanted to concentrate this discussion on the photos at: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html and: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html which were taken at the 1/2000 sec settings. However, if there was ringing or strobing going on in the 1/70000 second settings, that would actually strengthen Smith's case, because then double images should have appeared if the bullet had moved through the strobing periods. In that case, then, there are 2 possibilities: either (1) the bullet did not move during the entire exposure time, (2) the bullet moved but the film was only responsive during a very tiny portion of the movement. Naturally, 2 is a non - anomalous explanation so that necessitates looking at a circumatnce where the film is demonstratedly responsive continuously. Setup 2 satisfies this requirement, however the surprize is that since strobing is not occurring, which possibility was ruled out by the calibration tests, that the motion of the small nail in fig 6 HR and fragements in fig 5 HR are moving discontinuously (Smith's theory) or that the FILM IS REGISTERING DISCONTINUOUSLY, annacountable for by any theory. > In order to find > out for sure, you or someone is going to have to first replicate the > anomalous images and then study the strobe light behavior. The flash tube (strobe is a misnomer for the functions employed in these experiments) has been studied, and the result is posted. These studies show no evidence that the flash "strobes" at the 1/2000 second intervals, and no evidence that the possible strobe effects at 1/70000 second caused detectable double images in the 1/70000 sec experiments. What other studies of the flash tube would you recommend? > I doubt if you > can ever reach any solid conclusions by studying the old images and the > present performance of the strobe light. I think we can conclude that these images are unexplained by the science of optics, photography or anything else, so if we must revert to unconventional explanations, so be it. In this state of affairs, it must be admitted that further investigations by serious research labs and personnel is warranted. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 16:04:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09832; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:03:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:03:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:02:53 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit In-Reply-To: <010c01bf5c8a$31a1e900$6f441d26 fjsparber> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"V8DGw2.0.XP2.OJyUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick The standard op-amp integrators are integrating with respect to time, not current or voltage. Hank On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: hank scudder > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 2:12 PM > Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit > > Hank wrote: > > > > Frederick > > You need a multiplier circuit to measure power, not a summing or > > integrating one. > > As Stated you can use Two integrators Plus a Summing Circuit to effect Multiplication, > > Analog computing 101. :-) > > Frederick > > > > Hank > > > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > Using a voltage divider to measure the DC voltage in a circuit, V and a dropping > > > resistor to measure a voltage proportional to the DC current, I, two integrating Op Amps > > > to multiply V*I feeding a resistance summing circuit will give an output equal to power, P: > > > > > > P = VI = integral Vo to V I dV + integral Io to I V dI > > > > > > With 0 to 5 vdc for V and I, What would the Op Amp circuits feeding a summing circuit and a > > > voltmeter look like? > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 17:25:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03536; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:23:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:23:54 -0800 Message-ID: <014f01bf5ca3$fb9a95e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:22:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"WNi6m1.0.9t.fUzUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank wrote > > It integrates wrt time > Of course, it's an analog computer circuit. :-) Looking at it as the area under an x and y sawtooth, you integrate the voltage developed across a voltage divider, and a voltage developed across series dropping resistor, V = I*R: V1 = x , V2 = y x | | /| | / | | / | |/__|________ y Then to multiply, you use two integrators: Power = x*y = integral V1o to V1' V1 dV2 + integral V2o to V2' V2 dV1 As I see it, Hank you are solving for the sum of the areas under the two x y curves to get Power (note the + sign indicating that you are adding the two areas)and you have to use a time base to do it electrically. It ain't simple, is it? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 17:51:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10932; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:50:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:50:17 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:51:38 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200001120151.SAA10455 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZBvhX1.0.fg2.PtzUu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:14 PM 1/11/00 -0600, you wrote: >Here's another attempt at doing the calorimetry in the way that M&O did it >for the article in IE #27, but this time with a quartz vessel and a small >fan directly on the cell as Mizuno uses. > >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run4/run4.html > >We got our usual result on this run, suggesting that Conservation of Energy >still holds in the year 2000. > IMHO it's time to tell your backers to pony up a ticket for you and your portable calorimeter to Japan. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 18:20:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19716; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:18:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:18:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387BA979.4D9D ca-ois.com> References: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:15:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous Images Resent-Message-ID: <"v5Qfe1.0.-p4.xH-Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> > >> >> ***{The principle of continuity is a valid analytical perspective until >> >> someone demonstrates the contrary, and no one has done that thus far, or >> >> even come close. >> > >> >It would appear to me that Smith's results refutes your "principle" of >> >continuity, unless I do not understand that idea correctly. >> >> ***{As I have pointed out repeatedly, no experimental result can >> demonstrate the possibility of things leaping into existence out of nothing >> or vanishing into nothing, because if that were possible, we would have no >> basis for believing that the experiment ever happened. > >If an object were to suddenly appear by registering at one position on a >photographic plate, then at a given time later register on the plate at >an entirely new and differnt location, and repeated this behaviour >several times, and later the object were recovered, one could reasonably >infer that the experiment occurred. Whether or not the "principle of >continuity" could account for this behaviour in a reasonable way, is >quite another question, which you have apparently decided not to >address. ***{What is there to address? Such things happen in the movies all the time. Indeed, the appearance of smooth and continuous motion created by a motion picture is an illusion, and occurs due to the finite response time of the retina to the superimposition of a new image over the old one. It would be silly to suppose, on the basis of such happenings, that the principle of continuity was invalid, and, thus, that we have no basis for believing in the existence of anything, including ourselves. --MJ}*** > >> (The information >> which convinced you that it happened could have simply leaped into >> existence out of nothing, or, what would have the same effect, your >> knowledge of what was wrong with the experiment could have simply vanished >> into nothing.) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Which you have agreed is not the point at issue anyway, if the words >"nothing" and "the unknown" are not interchangeable. > >> You have >> >admitted in our previous discussion of that topic that the "principle of >> >continuity" precludes anything from coming into "existence" out of >> >"nothing", but that does not mean the same thing as precluding the >> >notion that something can come into existence out of the "unknown". >> > >> >The two terms then,"nothing" and "the unknown", are two entirely >> >different and discernable concepts, according to our resolution of that >> >debate. Therefore if I were to argue that some hypothetical experimental >> >results appear to show evidence that objects can come into "existence" >> >by means of as yet "unknown" or little understood mechanism (as when an >> >object, appearing in one location, "disappears" then at a later time, >> >appears at a new location) this would not be in conflict with your >> >"principle". >> >> ***{Absolutely correct. If so called "quantum discontinuities" are merely >> apparent--i.e., if the "quantum object" merely *seems* to vanish from its >> position at A and reappear at B, while in fact traveling over a continuous >> pathway from A to B--then my principle is satisfied. But, of course, in >> that case the claims of "quantum mechanics" are wrong. --MJ}*** > >I am not responsible for defending "claims" alleged to be atributable to >unspecified supporters of "quantum mechanics". If you can point to the >book and page number of the reference you have a problem with, do so. >Otherwise, you are thrusting at shadows. ***{I responding to this same question months ago--from you--by doing just that. The fact that you have consigned that information to your memory hole does *not* mean I am going to post it here again. --MJ}*** > >> >Therefore, I don't see anything for us to debate about. Your "principle" >> >is not relevant to the issue, because it only applies to the idea of >> >things coming into existence out of a hypothetical "nothing" which is >> >exclusive of the set of locations or cicumtstances defined by the word >> >"unknown", correct? >> >> ***{Um, not exactly. One thing *is* known: that in some form at some >> velocity, each and every part of the "quantum object" must travel via a >> continuous pathway from A to B. It is the precise nature of the path or >> paths, and the natures of the parts of the object, and whether they all >> follow the same paths, how fast they travel, etc., that is unknown. It is >> *not* unknown that, one way or another, everything that moves from A to B >> gets there by following continuous spatial pathways, because failure to do >> so would require that the object or one of its parts should vanish from its >> position at one location and reappear at another. > >Which is exactly what appears to happen in the photographs. ***{"Appears" is the operative word. As noted above, such effects are routine in photography. The only difference here is that some aspect of the process has not yet been explained to your satisfaction. In your pursuit of that remaining piece of information, I wish you luck. For myself, I have other fish to fry. --MJ}*** The point of >re-introducing >this issue was NOT to attempt to assert Smith's explanations for what is >happening as dogma or as an irrefutable "principle" but rather to >stimulate discussion of the "unknown" process, so we can find out how it >works. > >If we can find that out, maybe we will learn something. If learning >something does not interest you, go away and don't bother us. ***{Advice better directed at yourself, since you are the one who pulled me into this, by making a pointed reference to my principle of continuity, and suggesting that it was an analytical framework which is inappropriate to this group. So here is some advice: if you don't want to hear from me, then stop jerking my chain. --MJ}*** > >> That, as I have >> conclusively and repeatedly demonstrated, would violate the principle of >> continuity, and pull down the entire structure of human knowledge. > >OK. How about this, Mitchell: I'll agree that an effect event is the >result of a cause event, although cause events cannot be joined together >_continuously_ with effect events because they must be interrupted by a >process of information transfer from the causing object to the effected >object. There are no information transfer intervals possible where the >process of information transfer takes time t=0. Time t=0 is not an >"interval", by definition. > >IE: Cause events and effect events are joined together by a process of >information transfer that takes a certain amount of time to complete, >therefore because that is true, the duration intervals of cause events >are separate and _discontinuous_ from the duration intervals of effect >events, but cause and effect are connected _continuously_ in time by the >information transfer interval, during which "unknown" processes can >occur. > >Does the above idea satisfy your "principle of continuity"? ***{No. As I have pointed out to you before, motion is not a process of information transfer. Motion takes place whether an observer is present or not, whereas information transfer requires the presence of minds (or, if you want to stretch the point, computers) to send and receive the information. Causes are conjoined to effects by the continuous motion of the particles involved, from initial positions in the "cause" entities, to later positions in the "effect" entities. All information transfer thus involves continuous motion, but all continuous motions do not involve information transfer. --MJ}*** > >> It is >> wrong, and there aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. --MJ}*** >> > >Not demonstrated. ***{Demonstrated in spades, and I'm not about to go through it all again. You have all the information you need to evaluate this situation, and whether you do so properly is your problem, not mine. --MJ}*** > >> > >> >> I therefore have as much right to argue from that >> >> perspective as others have to argue from theirs, and you can bet your >> >> bottom dollar that I will continue to do so, when I feel that it is >> >> appropriate, whether you like it or not. >> > >> >Fire away, Mitchell. You have my post, to which you have only decided to >> >respond to the addendum of, and not to any of the substantive >> >information I provided. Explain the photographs, if you can. >> >> ***{I have no interest in ferreting out the error > >Well, I AM interested in ferreting out the error, if there is one, so go >away. ***{I'll do as I damn well please. --MJ}*** > >> which led to that silly conclusion, > >Your offhand characterization of Smith's conclusion (as "silly) is >exactly counter to Vortex's charter, wherein it is agreed we will treat >all serious investigators and experimenters with respect. By violating >this agreement you show your true colors, and that you are unfit to call >yourself a "scientist". You are an unabashed dogamtist, exactly the kind >of person you accuse others of being, to your own dishonor. ***{You are so desperate to come up with an accusation to hurl at me that you stoop to something such as this? That's pathetic. To say that an idea is silly is about as mild a reproof as I can imagine. It is routine in this group to do that, and has been so for years. Looking back through old vortex posts, I found that, by the standard enunciated by you, above, the following vortex luminaries are not "serious investigators," are "dishonorable," are "unfit to call themselves scientists," and are in violation of the vortex charter: Bill Beaty, Jed Rothwell, Gene Mallove, Rick Monteverde, Remi Cornwall, Bill Briggs, David Jonsson, Ross Tessien, Ed Storms, Robert Eachus, John Berry, Jed Rothwell again, Bill Beaty again, Cheryl (no last name), Rick Monteverde again, Robert Eachus again, Collin Quinney, Jim Ostrowski, and on and on and on. Note, in particular, the last name on the list: JIM OSTROWSKI. Thus you are hoist by your own petard, again. --MJ]*** > >> for two reasons: > >I do not care what your reasons are, if you are doing nothing but >posting your remarks in order to create dilatory non productive >bickering ***{"Projection" is a term used by psychologists. Look it up. --MJ}*** , you are not needed by either me or Smith. We do not ask your >help. Do something else with your life. ***{As I indicated earlier, when you stop taking swipes at me in your posts to others, you will stop hearing from me. Unfortunately, it appears that I am always foremost in your thoughts. I doubt that you could resist the impulse to pop off about me or my opinions if your life depended on it. --MJ}*** > >Like others in this group have decided to resign your posts to a >permenent trash filter, I think this is where comments like yours above >belong. ***{We all have names in our killfiles. Unfortunately, I am not yet in yours, and so your agony continues. :-) --MJ}*** > >Goodbye..... ***{Do svedania. --MJ}*** > >JO From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 18:32:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25086; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:32:10 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:42:18 -0500 Message-ID: <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"qD-QV3.0.n76.gU-Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are three things that, off the top of my head, could be different between your runs, and M&O's. 1. The calorimetry of the exit gases. I know that we have been over this in the past, but I still think that your method of evaluating the heat energy that leaves the cell in the vapors is subcorrect. I'll never be satisfied with a derivation, sorry. 2. The rate of spin on the agitator, or better stated, the amount of agitation may be different. This would have the affect of having differing amounts of gas bubbles on the cathode, resulting, I would think, in differing amounts of arcing. As Fred has pointed out, a measurement of the amount and type of photon energy radiated would be a good idea, and possibly an indication of a differing amount of arc production. I also haven't seen anything that indicates that you've observed any arcing on the anode, but I haven't been to your site for this run, so I'll assume that you have checked, and did find any arcing on the anode. 3. The actual method of agitation itself is interesting to me. I posted a question about this a couple of weeks ago during a flamewar, and didn't see a response. Maybe the question is too stupid, but is there a possibility that the agitator may be adding or subtracting electrical energy from the energy audit depending on the spin direction, and rate of spin? This would be a fast and easy thing to check, with or without the device running. 4. Did I say three things? Sorry... The cooling rates will be dependent on the CF/M of air being applied to the surface of the cell, the cell geometry itself, and the ambient temperature of the room, but... you know all that. :) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 18:33:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24604; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:31:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:31:28 -0800 Message-ID: <387BE671.31D9 ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:26:58 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous Images References: <200001112225.RAA23789 fh105.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fzsRc.0.K06._T-Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > > because failure to do > > > so would require that the object or one of its parts should vanish from > its > > > position at one location and reappear at another. > > > > Which is exactly what appears to happen in the photographs. > > Motion is not discontinuous to much less than at least .005x10^-6 seconds. > I know this from personal experience using an analog phosphor type 100Mhz > oscilloscope. The time for a trace to occur from one end of the > oscilloscope to the other end is frequently far smaller than 1/70000th of a > second. If there were discontinuity, it would be observed in the way the > electron beam excited the phosphor screen of the oscilloscope. Nothing of > this nature is found. The trace is not chopped into tiny segments on the > screen every 1/70000th of a second. Your eye is only able to detect flickering in scope traces down to maybe 25 discontinuities per second, corresponding to the frame rate for movies, which to the eye, appear continuous. If there were discontinuities in scope traces occuring that endured for shorter times, you would not be able to observe them unless they were somehow synced with scope's trigger mechanism, and if you could figure out a way to do that, I would be interested. Besides that, it is discernable that alpha ray traces in cloud chambers exhibit evidence of discontinuous motion, however the spaces between the small globular formations occur within much shorter periods of time than 1/64000 sec, because alpha ray particles move much faster than bullets. So in order for the two recorded observations to be consistent with each other, Boisvert came up with the notion that "immobility periods" of electrons, say, are more numerous, but of lesser duration of the immobility periods of the objects that they are part of. The point of my posting however, was not to try to prove that Boisvert's theory is correct, but to get the opinions of others how the images referred to might have been formed in ways other than his theory dictates. The images at: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html and http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html appear to show that the accelerated objects pause in mid flight and "pose" at regular intervals. That's what the photos taken at prima facia appear to demonstrate. This of course is impossible according to standard (continuous) theories of physics. The problem is that the only "scientific" explanation for these images Boisvert ever obtained was that they were caused by "light effects". I told Smith perhaps we could come up with a more detailed and REASONABLE explanation. But so far, no one has offered anything. Anyway, Boisvert's theory subdivides immobility periods for objects down to the microscopic (electron) level. Obviously, if ALL motion including the motions of electrons undergoing acceleration via cathode potential, and electrons moved around in chemical reactions ceased simultaneously, that would mean that the film would not respond to light from the object during the period where the object appears immobilized. and no image at all would therefore appear. Obviously then if immobility periods included ALL motion down to the electron particle level, we would NEVER detect THAT, because our recording devices would stop recording too. Whether this explanation is correct or not, we are looking for alternative explanations that would fit the observations (photographic evidence) and still jibe with standard physics. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 18:34:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25053; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:32:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:32:07 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:42:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000112024220828.AAC84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"QB5Wv3.0.N76.cU-Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Frederick Sparber wrote: > >>How do you or M&O account for the light/photon energy radiated out >>of the test vessel, Scott? > >In most experiments, they ignore this. Perhaps they should try to measure >it. In the well-insulated test, the cell is pyrex glass and insulation is >opaque, so I guess the insulating layer facing the glass heats up. > >- Jed Anybody know hot it gets (the insulation material)? Is the insulation in actual contact with the cell? How well does the insulating material hold up under the temperatures of the operation? Did you smell anything while he was demonstrating it? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 18:47:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30654; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:45:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:45:20 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <387BF914.212B15C7 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 03:46:28 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: relativity teaser References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154 mail.eden.com> <387A7877.60658C77 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111152627.017e2264@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"0CM6f3.0.uU7._g-Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack Smith wrote: When you say "The stationary source of light (star) is directly overhead" do you mean that the star has zero aberration, that is, this is the "true" position of the star? Scott Little wrote: ... "Directly overhead" is the true position of the star. However, because of aberration we don't see it as directly overhead but rather 20" away. Hi Scott, When I asked "do ypu mean that the star has zero aberration"? that is literally what I meant. Or are you saying that it is imposssible to see a star from Earth that has zero aberration? I was under the impression that 20'' was the maximum aberration, and that other aberrations, less than [the absolute value of] 20'', including zero, were possible. If zero aberration is possible, then the "true" position of a star that is seen with zero aberration to be directly overhead is DIRECTLY OVERHEAD. Jack Smith wrote: Since the aberration is zero, the telescope would be verticle. Scott Little wrote: The aberration is not zero. Jack writes: Assuming, for the sake of the relativity teaser, that the aberration is zero, are the verticle telescope and the moving tank of water essentially the same experiment? How about water moving horizontally in a stationary transparent trough? This would be an easier experiment to do. Would this be the same situation? Even though it is still not obvious to me how the "aberration" mentioned above has anything to do with "the tine light is travelling down the telescope," if the star (light source) is considered to be at the top of the telescope, there may be a "transit delay" relating to the beam of light coming down the telescope. Would not this require an exceptionally narrow beam? If such a beam could exist, there might be some secondary aberration occuring from the top of the telescope to the eyepiece. Much more plausible to me is a "wavefront" filling the telescope from one side (in 2 dimensions) to the other. What do you think? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 19:17:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13198; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:10:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:10:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111211126.006f1c8c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:11:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: relativity teaser In-Reply-To: References: <387B9691.1F5550C1 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vwEj01.0.WD3.p2_Uu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:50 PM 1/11/00 -0800, hank scudder wrote: > If I am traveling with the tank of water, floating on it for >example, and my sextant reads ninety degrees, relative to the surface, The >suns rays will travel straight down. They will hit the spot on the bottom >directly under the sun. If I put on my scuba mask, and read the sextant on >the bottom, it will still read ninety degrees. Get out of the tank, Hank, you're muddying the water....:) In the original statement of the problem, a STATIONARY observer sees the light strike the surface of the moving water at an angle of ninety degrees. Now, get in the tank and ride along with the water. Because of aberration you now do not see the light coming in at 90 degrees anymore. That's why the light bends when it hits the moving water. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 19:38:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14325; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:35:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:35:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111213557.006efba0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:35:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: relativity teaser In-Reply-To: <387BF914.212B15C7 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000109015039.006e98b8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000110000747.006fc154 mail.eden.com> <387A7877.60658C77 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000110212120.006c1c90 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111152627.017e2264 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gDaC92.0.lV3.cP_Uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:46 AM 1/12/00 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >I was under the impression that 20'' was the maximum aberration, >and that other aberrations, less than [the absolute value of] 20'', >including zero, were possible. Depends upon which direction you are looking. If you target a star whose direction vector is orthogonal to the plane of the ecliptic, then aberration never disappears and the star appears to move in a small near-circle as we revolve around the sun. However if we look at a star that is off in a direction that lies IN the plane of the ecliptic then the aberration will vary sinusoidally from +20" to -20" with an annual period. >If zero aberration is possible, then the "true" position of a >star that is seen with zero aberration to be directly overhead >is DIRECTLY OVERHEAD. Of course. However for the Airy telescope problem, we can just forget all this complexity and focus on the simple problem of a star that is directly overhead being viewed from a uniformly moving Earth. >Assuming, for the sake of the relativity teaser, that the >aberration is zero, are the verticle telescope and the >moving tank of water essentially the same experiment? No, the moving tank of water thing just helps us understand how all observers agree on the behavior of the water-filled Airy telescope. It's really a fine point that can be ignored. The main issue is to figure out why the Airy water-filled telescope didn't require a greater tilt...however, I am beginning to suspect that you are one of those rare people who think Airy was stupid for trying his experiment because it obviously wouldn't make any difference if you fill the scope with water. I was not so fortunate and spent days researching the Airy experiment and even entertained the idea that he might not have done the experiment carefully enough...before it hit me. >How about water moving horizontally in a stationary >transparent trough? This would be an easier >experiment to do. Would this be the same situation? Yes, all that is required is that the water be moving but, please let us set this aside because it is a tiny detail. >Even though it is still not obvious to me how >the "aberration" mentioned above has anything to do with >"the tine light is travelling down the telescope," >if the star (light source) is considered to be at the >top of the telescope, there may be a "transit delay" >relating to the beam of light coming down the telescope. >Would not this require an exceptionally narrow beam? > >If such a beam could exist, there might be some secondary >aberration occuring from the top of the telescope to the >eyepiece. Much more plausible to me is a "wavefront" >filling the telescope from one side (in 2 dimensions) to >the other. What do you think? I'm completely lost here, Jack. It is sufficient to consider the telescope simply as a long narrow pipe which must be precisely aligned or the light will not make it through. You don't have to worry about whether the light is a narrow beam or wavefronts or anything like that. Just think of it as "stuff" traveling at c in perfectly straight lines from the source. If the pipe (telescope) is pointed correctly, the stuff gets through...otherwise it hits the sides of the pipe. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 19:41:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15649; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:37:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:37:51 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <387C0553.2211F908 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 04:38:43 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous Images References: <200001112225.RAA23789 fh105.infi.net> <387BE671.31D9@ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"TEMW23.0.Fq3.9S_Uu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: ... it is discernable that alpha ray traces in cloud chambers exhibit evidence of discontinuous motion, however the spaces between the small globular formations occur within much shorter periods of time than 1/64000 sec, because alpha ray particles move much faster than bullets. So in order for the two recorded observations to be consistent with each other, Boisvert came up with the notion that "immobility periods" of electrons, say, are more numerous, but of lesser duration of the immobility periods of the objects that they are part of. Hi Jim, A theory that "immobility period" depends on the size of the object that is moving should be open to experimental verification. Perhaps it could even be verified by re-examination of exisitng experimental data. On another subject, I have taken photos which produced a "smear". In other photos, where I expected a smear, there was none. These pictures were all taken at low speed. Are there some rules for this sort of thing? I would appreciate a reference. Finally, the suspended bullet special effect in "The Matrix", with tails, seem paradoxical. Did the special effects people get this right? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 20:21:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA00728; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:20:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:20:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:51:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3xM-43.0.IB.r30Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:42 PM 1/11/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >1. The calorimetry of the exit gases. I know that we have been over this >in the past, but I still think that your method of evaluating the heat >energy that leaves the cell in the vapors is subcorrect. I'll never be >satisfied with a derivation, sorry. OK, then maybe you will be satisfied that I am doing it the same way that they are doing it. They see excess heat. I don't. Therefore it can't be the way I'm treating the exit gases. >2. The rate of spin on the agitator, or better stated, the amount of >agitation may be different. Indeed. BTW, I never see any arcing at the anode. It's all at the cathode. >3. The actual method of agitation itself is interesting to me. I posted a >question about this a couple of weeks ago during a flamewar, and didn't see >a response. Maybe the question is too stupid, but is there a possibility >that the agitator may be adding or subtracting electrical energy from the >energy audit depending on the spin direction, and rate of spin? Yes, the stirring does add a little input power but it is VERY small. I couldn't see it with my water-flow calorimeter, which means it is less than a few tenths of a watt. >4. Did I say three things? Sorry... The cooling rates will be dependent >on the CF/M of air being applied to the surface of the cell, the cell >geometry itself, and the ambient temperature of the room, but... you know >all that. :) Yes, I believe that I could get up to their 99 watt cooling rate if I put a really powerful fan by the cell. Perhaps I should try that next. Thanks for the comments. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 21:33:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25983; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:32:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:32:04 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 00:42:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000112054220359.AAA183 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"xWH4O1.0.qL6.J71Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >OK, then maybe you will be satisfied that I am doing it the same way that >they are doing it. They see excess heat. I don't. Therefore it can't be >the way I'm treating the exit gases. I'll buy that. I don't have a good picture of how they are doing the calorimetry. I had heard at one point that everything was in a Dewar, then Jed said it was different, and I guess the upshot is that it changes depending on what they are looking for, which only makes sense. I've scratched my head raw a few times trying to think of ways to get the recombination beads oriented directly above and vertical to the cell in order to get at least that part inside the calorimeter, but it would take a major redesign of your set-up, and like you said "So much to do, so little time." >>2. The rate of spin on the agitator, or better stated, the amount of >>agitation may be different. > >Indeed. > > BTW, I never see any arcing at the anode. It's all at the cathode. That's good to know. I am assuming that they have never mentioned seeing this as well. >Yes, the stirring does add a little input power but it is VERY small. I >couldn't see it with my water-flow calorimeter, which means it is less than >a few tenths of a watt. I didn't figure that it could add very much, but I thought that maybe it might somehow take away from the audit. Glad to see that you checked. If something like that were possible, and found to be happening in certain situations, it would throw everybody for a loop.:) >Yes, I believe that I could get up to their 99 watt cooling rate if I put a >really powerful fan by the cell. Perhaps I should try that next. I forgot to mention also, that the amount of electrolyte left in the cell would also play a role, although I'm not sure how significant. If the amount of gas produced is significantly higher, then the amount of liquid left in the cell would naturally be lower. Since most of the heat in the cell would be contained in the liquid, a lower liquid level would lower the cooling time. Right? The significant variable now seems to be the amount of stirring, which, I'm assuming for now, plays a role in the amount of arcing and gas production. I'm thinking that you may have to play around with the stirring speed to find out. It still could be a winner for you yet, or it could be another weener. Either way, it's been fun to watch. ;) Good Luck, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 21:44:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02205; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:40:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:40:26 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:39:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id VAA02121 Resent-Message-ID: <"tOHrK2.0.NY.7F1Vu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:51:20 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >>2. The rate of spin on the agitator, or better stated, the amount of >>agitation may be different. > >Indeed. There is another point connected to this too. If their rate of spin is high enough, then the liquid will tend to rise around the walls of the cell, and drop in the middle. This will change the surface area to volume ratio (possibly considerably), and facilitate cooling. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 21:55:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04649; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:54:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:54:08 -0800 Message-ID: <005401bf5c79$21b1ec90$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <79.79729426.25abf9c8 aol.com> Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:16:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"XczcO2.0.Y81.0S1Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote: > In a message dated 1/7/00 1:37:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, > george varisys.com writes: > > > Vince, > > One more quick point, much of the run to > > run variation you are experiencing may > > be due to ambient temperature variation. > > Are you recording the ambient temperature? > > Regards, > > George Holz george varisys.com > > Yes I am. - Your previously posted data: ----------------------------------------------------------- Run 010600 completed today. H2 and K fill. H2 fill pressure 20 ±0.1 torr. Tc was 249.1 C ±0.1 C Tv was 649 VDC ±1% Ta was 0.0303 amp ±1% Tw (Tv X Ta) was 19.66 Tc/w was 12.67 degrees per watt. Compare the above readings to the 3 calibration runs conducted 7-24 thru 8-8-99 below: Fill---Tc-----Tv-----Ta-----Tw-----Tc/w 20.7--221.9--0759--0.0257--19.50--11.37 20.0--193.5--0766--0.0219--16.77--11.53 20.0--203.5--0750--0.0209--15.67--12.98 ------------------------------------------------------------- Note that the third calibration run gave a very different Tc/w than the first two runs. The intrepretation of the with K run would be clearer if you could provide the ambient temperature readings for all four runs. You are running a crude calorimeter where the reference temperature is your garage ambient. IOW the ambient temperature adds to the measured Tc and should be compensated for by Tcc = Tc - ( Ta - Tstd ) . Tcc is the corrected Tc Tstd is an average ambient temperature for all runs Ta is the ambient temperature for each run - This seems like a good approximation to me. Any comments from the thermal measurement experts? - Tom Stolper asked: >Can you estimate what input power Vince would need with K to match the cell >temperature (Tsubc) without K? That might help Vince deal with the thermal >delay problem more easily. Let's see if the Ta numbers make the results a little more consistent before putting a number on any possible overunity factor. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 22:38:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15347; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:37:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:37:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 00:33:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"iNDsY2.0.il3.n42Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here's another attempt at doing the calorimetry in the way that M&O did it >for the article in IE #27, but this time with a quartz vessel and a small >fan directly on the cell as Mizuno uses. > >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run4/run4.html > >We got our usual result on this run, suggesting that Conservation of Energy >still holds in the year 2000. > >It is interesting to compare these results with similar results from M&O. >There is no one thing that stands out as different. Their cells produce >more steam than ours, consume less current than ours, and lose more heat >through the walls than ours. These three factors make the difference >between ~240% gain in their case and an energy balance in our case. ***{Here is a hypotheses for you to consider. Assuming that Mizuno has his stirrer running when the cell is operating, the flow pattern within the cell is going to change radically when the cathode is turned off at the end of a run, leaving only the stirrer to circulate the water. When only the stirrer is running, the result will be a circulation pattern in which water is sucked down at the center of the cell, thrown outward by the rotation of the agitator at the bottom, rises up along the inside walls of the beaker, and then flows toward the center at the top before going down again. When the cathode is on and in the non-wetting phase, on the other hand, a major effect of the chaotic variations within the steam cloak will be repeated steam explosions at random locations around the cathode, when the wall of water collapses in and touches the hot cathode. That means there will be a powerful upward current produced by the rising steam at the center of the beaker, and that upward flow will tend to cancel the effect of the stirrer at the bottom. Thus there will be much less circulation in the beaker when the cell is in operation than when it is turned off, because the hot cathode tends to produce a rising current in the center, whereas the stirrer tends to produce a descending current in the center. Result: Mizuno's initial rate of cooling when the cell is turned off will be *much* higher than it will be when the cell is actually in operation, due to the lessened circulation when the cell is in operation, and he will calculate that his cell is "over unity" when it isn't. If, on the other hand, you do not turn your stirrer on until the cathode is turned off, then your cooling curve will be accurate, while Mizuno's will not, and when you run your numbers, they will show that your cell is *not* "over unity." The question is, am I correct in guessing that Mizuno runs his stirrer at all times and that you only run yours when the cell is off, or not? If I am *not* correct, and if both you and Mizuno run your stirrers at all times, then is it possible that Mizuno's stirrer exactly cancels the updraft from his cathode, whereas yours does not? If so, then when Mizuno turns off his cathode, circulation will increase hugely in his cell, producing a large jump in the cooling rate, whereas in your cell circulation will be good in both cases, and the cooling rate will not change much when you turn your cathode off. Result: once again, he will calculate a false "over unity" number, and you will not. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 23:00:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA21156; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:00:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:00:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:56:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> References: <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nOu8y1.0.LA5.rP2Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:51 PM 1/11/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 09:42 PM 1/11/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >>1. The calorimetry of the exit gases. I know that we have been over this >>in the past, but I still think that your method of evaluating the heat >>energy that leaves the cell in the vapors is subcorrect. I'll never be >>satisfied with a derivation, sorry. > >OK, then maybe you will be satisfied that I am doing it the same way that >they are doing it. They see excess heat. I don't. Therefore it can't be >the way I'm treating the exit gases. > >>2. The rate of spin on the agitator, or better stated, the amount of >>agitation may be different. > >Indeed. > > BTW, I never see any arcing at the anode. It's all at the cathode. > >>3. The actual method of agitation itself is interesting to me. I posted a >>question about this a couple of weeks ago during a flamewar, and didn't see >>a response. Maybe the question is too stupid, but is there a possibility >>that the agitator may be adding or subtracting electrical energy from the >>energy audit depending on the spin direction, and rate of spin? > >Yes, the stirring does add a little input power but it is VERY small. I >couldn't see it with my water-flow calorimeter, which means it is less than >a few tenths of a watt. > >>4. Did I say three things? Sorry... The cooling rates will be dependent >>on the CF/M of air being applied to the surface of the cell, the cell >>geometry itself, and the ambient temperature of the room, but... you know >>all that. :) > >Yes, I believe that I could get up to their 99 watt cooling rate if I put a >really powerful fan by the cell. Perhaps I should try that next. > >Thanks for the comments. > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 -- on the controls and cooling curves: Given the discussions recently, confirming what was posted over the last several years regarding the importance of full cooling curves, system response curves, controls (joule and chemical), and the precise model, did not see those curves, controls, etc. at that web URL. -- on the question of carefully finding the op. op. pt. Also was there any attempt at finding an optimal operating point by varying the input power and carefully measuring the actual output (compared to controls, joule and other material)? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 03:28:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA31886; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 03:26:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 03:26:40 -0800 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Cedric_Mannu?= To: Subject: RE: Anomalous Images Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:26:55 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf5d3b$5f80bf70$01010a0a WORKGROUP.eternite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.5600 In-Reply-To: <387AE8AD.7D90 ca-ois.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"qNtbU3.0.6o7.jJ6Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, Dicontinuity of motion implies dicontinuity of matter. I proved this in a mathematical treaty http://www.eternite.com/secret. More discontinuity of matter, implies from Jacques Ravatin's work that we have phenomenae such as "localisation", "delocalisation", apparition/disparition. Delocalisation happens when the centripete movement is strong enough to attain the levels described by Schauberger, where matter is so condensed that it physical "disappear" to higher levels of energy This condensation/expansion phenomenae, at hearth in any process of creation/destruction, can easily be understood from the Berkeley's statement. They're statment was speaking for energy when i would probably prefer the term Aether, but it said all matter is energy in a given form (static) all waves phenomena like light ... is energy in another form (dynamic) Thus universe is made of the same thing in two aspects. We can also know now that all matter derives from H chemically. Discontinuity of space, time, matter and energy is Reality. Continuousness is an effect of psyche, linked to conscious state. We make duration where nature is always life and death in the same time, thus discontinuous. Next to speak with you C. Mannu PS : i encourage you to see the mathematical treaty to see how true and strong it is. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Ostrowski [mailto:jimostr ca-ois.com] Sent: mardi 11 janvier 2000 00:24 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Anomalous Images Fellow Vortexians, Two momths ago, I invited everyone to review the evidence for "Discontinuity of Motion" (motion quantization) posted at the site: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html The response to this invititation was a mixture of incredulity, helpful suggestions, constructive criticism, and derision. I could attach names to each of these categories, however, this is unnecessary since I'm sure you all know who you are. There have been further experiments and equipment calibration. My friend Frank Stenger, Research Engineer, NASA (ret.) formerly of this list, constructed a "Super BB" gun capable of firing a projectile that will traverse it's own diametric length in less than 1/64000 second, the hypothesized "quantum moment" of the universe. No photographic tests similar to Boisvert's "quantum leap" procedure have as yet been conducted, however Frank did some "grazing tests" firing BB's at some soft aluminum at a very small angle. No evidence of any discontinuous activity was obtained from those tests, nor from firing the BB through variously spaced foils show anything anomalous or unexpected by those who believe motion is continuous. It should be noted, however, that the theory's main proponent, Gordon Smith stated prior to these test runs that our notions of how the phenomena "should" work were incorrect, and predicted that indeed, continuous tracks would be produced by these kinds of tests. Smith nonetheless is unable to think of any other experiments besides photographic ones that will produce the anomalous results or information consistent with the original thesis. Therefore what we are left with is the images, which remain unexplained. In order to rule out possible "strobing" effects of the flash unit, a Honeywell Auto/Strobonar 360, Smith had the unit calibrated and the voltage and current graphed by a technician at the British Columbia Institute of Technology, Kam Fung. I wrote the procedure for these tests, which Kam did follow quite well, however he believed an additional photosensor measurement was necessary, from which he concluded that the light output did not really track the flashtube voltage or current characteristics at all. Kam believes that the smoother output of the photosensor is a more accurate indication of how the flashtube really responds over the given intervals. I would tend to disagree with this due to the slow response time of the sensor he used (7 usec), however, either way there is no indication that the motive discontinuities evident in some of the photographs at the above mentioned site are a result of unusual or unexpected flashtube or energizing circuit behaviour. The complete BCIT report is available in html by clicking here: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/testres.html In the recently acquired light of these calibration results, one still wonders how the photos taken at the 1/2000 second settings (setup 2, http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Setup2.html#Photo Setup 2 ) and displayed at: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html and: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html were produced, were motion not discontinuous in the manner and approximate durations which Smith describes. Since I assured Smith that we Vortexians were among the most enlightened association of scientists and engineers available anywhere, I would appreciate if we treat Smith, who admits he is not a "professional" "scientist" with the respect due anyone who joined in with a new and unsusual "crackpot" theory, backed up by real experiment. I'm not asking anyone to accept Smith's ideas out of hand, be as critical as you need be, however downgrading his ideas because they do not align with our own notions of what is "impossible" because of our own "pet theories" (such as the alleged "principle" of continuity) will be vigorously challenged by me persanally, complete with my judgemental evaluations of hypocritical attitudes not in keeping with "The Spirit of Vortex". Although I do not expect Smith to participate except when additional information is requested, he will be monitoring our discussions. Thanks to those who want to be helpful. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:25:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07046; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000112080235.0108b670 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:02:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill In-Reply-To: <005401bf5c79$21b1ec90$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <79.79729426.25abf9c8 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8r8661.0.-j1.dw8Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:16 PM 1/11/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >IOW the >ambient temperature adds to the measured Tc and should >be compensated for by Tcc = Tc - ( Ta - Tstd ) . >Tcc is the corrected Tc >Tstd is an average ambient temperature for all runs >Ta is the ambient temperature for each run >- >This seems like a good approximation to me. >Any comments from the thermal measurement experts? Does "stubborn" count?... Yes, I agree that the ambient temp should be included, either as you indicate above or by simply making the calibration in terms of the delta-T between Tc and Troom. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:25:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07032; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000112080001.00732f60 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:00:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Tcw2A1.0.jj1.cw8Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:39 PM 1/12/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >There is another point connected to this too. If their rate of spin is high >enough, then the liquid will tend to rise around the walls of the cell, and >drop in the middle. This will change the surface area to volume ratio >(possibly considerably), and facilitate cooling. I worried about the effect of the electrolyte level until I realized that, during operation, the head space above the electrolyte is full of steam that is continuously condensing on the walls of the vessel. That effectively heats those walls and makes the vessel "look" like its nearly full of electrolyte, which is the condition when we perform the cooling curves. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:25:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07083; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:10:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jHOJw2.0.bk1.gw8Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:33 AM 1/12/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >When only the stirrer is running, the result will be a >circulation pattern in which water is sucked down at the center of the >cell... That is indeed what I observe. >repeated steam explosions...means there will be a powerful upward >current produced by the rising steam at the center of the beaker... As far as I can tell, my stirrer completely overcomes the rising effect of the bubbles and the steam. When I turn on the stirrer, the running cell changes promptly to a uniform opaque white appearance. >The question is, am I correct in guessing that Mizuno runs his stirrer at >all times and that you only run yours when the cell is off, or not? I run mine all the time. I am assuming that he does as well. >is it possible that Mizuno's stirrer exactly cancels the >updraft from his cathode, whereas yours does not? Yes. >Result: once again, he will >calculate a false "over unity" number, and you will not. A decent hypothesis, MJ, tempered only by the fact that my cooling curve didn't change by more than 10% relative when I added the stirrer. In view of the fact that it took 3 or 4 email exchanges with my cooling curve data being 4x times lower than his to learn that he has a fan located 5 cm from the cell blowing directly on it, I have little hope that I can glean a useful picture of his stirring action. If I end up visiting his lab, however, that will be on my list of things to check out. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:25:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07145; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000112081800.01dfb9a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:18:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"okUs61.0.Wl1.lw8Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:56 AM 1/12/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Given the discussions recently, confirming what was >posted over the last several years regarding the importance >of full cooling curves, system response curves, controls >(joule and chemical), and the precise model, did not >see those curves, controls, etc. at that web URL. Recall that this style of calorimetry is based upon two major heat paths: (1) heat of vaporization, and (2) heat loss thru the walls. The measurement part of the run is limited to the period when the cell is boiling. A full cooling curve is not required to determine the heat loss rate for the boiling cell. The single heat-loss value required is determined by observing the initial slope of the cooling curve. I didn't include the raw data or the curve in the web report because it wasn't very interesting. There are no "controls" in the usual sense for this style of calorimetry. The heat loss thru vaporization is determined by weighing the cell before and after the run and calculating the heat required to evaporate that much water. >Also was there any attempt at finding an optimal operating >point by varying the input power and carefully measuring >the actual output (compared to controls, joule and other >material)? No, I am still trying to replicate the work of Mizuno and Ohmori. After I see some sign of excess heat using operating conditions that mimic theirs as closely as possible, I will begin optimizing the phenomenon. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:26:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07175; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:24:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000112082104.0108ce04 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:21:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <010401bf5c89$912ec6a0$6f441d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oe6Qq2.0.ul1.mw8Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:13 PM 1/11/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >How do you or M&O account for the light/photon energy radiated out >of the test vessel, Scott? The light's pretty dim, Fred. Even if it was as bright as a 100 watt light bulb (it is orders of magnitude less), I believe that would only be about 7 watts of power leaving as light. Isn't that about the efficiency of an incandescent bulb? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:42:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21912; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:38:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:38:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000112093837.0079e7a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:38:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <20000112024220828.AAC84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ttXDG2.0.EM5.r79Vu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >Anybody know hot it gets (the insulation material)? Is the insulation in >actual contact with the cell? How well does the insulating material hold up >under the temperatures of the operation? The insulation is styrofoam. Two chunks of it close like a clamshell around the pyrex beaker. They are held together with duct tape. The chunks were cut from a large blue chunk, and then shaped by pressing a red-hot coffee can against them. (Out in the parking lot, while heating the coffee can on the inside with a blowtorch.) They do not seem damaged or changed by the heat of the glow discharge. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:56:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21527; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:54:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:54:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:43:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <200001120151.SAA10455 smtp.asu.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mqf5e.0.HG5.SM9Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: >IMHO it's time to tell your backers to pony up a ticket for you and your >portable calorimeter to Japan. I agree. If you plan ahead you can find remarkably cheap fares. Scott missed the all-time low fare. On Dec. 31 one airline was offering New York - Tokyo round-trip tickets for $200! Nobody wanted to fly during the Y2K cutover. I heard that everyone who boarded was upgraded to First Class. I was never in a tizzy over Y2K but I admit, I would have hesitated to fly that night. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 07:03:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26322; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:02:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:02:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000112095223.007a3e40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:52:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dTUS-1.0.7R6.9U9Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >>The question is, am I correct in guessing that Mizuno runs his stirrer at >>all times and that you only run yours when the cell is off, or not? > >I run mine all the time. I am assuming that he does as well. He does. You can see that on the video, Scott. (You can hear it.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 07:25:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08236; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:23:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:23:54 -0800 Message-ID: <01bb01bf5d19$53d692c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:22:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZVep.0.202.9o9Vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 6:10 AM Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Scott wrote: > > The radiated energy is "orders of magnitude" below the input.... > At ~ 2,000 K as seen in the photo the T4 radiation for light that is not absorbed by the electrolyte or vessel is about 90 watts/cm^2. This is not a "100 watt light bulb" with a fraction of a cm^2 radiating area. Regards, Frederick > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 08:55:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07449; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:53:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:53:10 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bb01bf5d19$53d692c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:50:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"__zpl2.0.Jq1.s5BVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Scott Little >To: ; >Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 6:10 AM >Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 > >Scott wrote: > >> >> The radiated energy is "orders of magnitude" below the input.... >> >At ~ 2,000 K as seen in the photo the T4 radiation for light that is not >absorbed by the electrolyte or vessel is about 90 watts/cm^2. This >is not a "100 watt light bulb" with a fraction of a cm^2 radiating area. > >Regards, Frederick ***{That's an interesting point. The glowing region of Scott's cathode is *vastly larger* than the glowing region in the filament of a 100 watt light bulb--perhaps hundreds or even thousands of times as great. If, therefore, each cm^2 of surface area on Scott's cathode is putting out as much light as a 100 watt light bulb, and Scott's cathode has 100 times the glowing region of a 100 watt bulb, then it would be emitting 10,000 watts! To make the matter worse, Scott's cathode is not pulling 100 watts, but 124 watts! Of course, lots of that would take the form of heat, but by Wien's law the frequency of maximum intensity is directly proportional to the absolute temperature of the emitter, so it seems very plausible to me that the vast majority of the emissions from Scott's cathode are *not* infrared, but at visible frequencies or higher. If so, then he could be missing a significant portion of his energy output by simply assuming that the energy carried away in the form of visible light is negligible. --MJ}*** > > >> >> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) >> >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 08:59:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10225; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:57:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:57:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000112115743.0079b530 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:57:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01bf5d19$53d692c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3-7Cu1.0.gV2.CABVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >If, therefore, >each cm^2 of surface area on Scott's cathode is putting out as much light >as a 100 watt light bulb, and Scott's cathode has 100 times the glowing >region of a 100 watt bulb, then it would be emitting 10,000 watts! It can't be. It would be blinding. You could not even look in the direction of the cell. It would look a little like the CF cell in the last scene of the movie "The Saint," which vastly amused Mizuno when he saw it on the plane coming back from Moscow. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 09:05:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12591; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:03:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:03:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01bf5d19$53d692c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:00:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"bVZuw1.0.f43.pFBVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >***{That's an interesting point. The glowing region of Scott's cathode is >*vastly larger* than the glowing region in the filament of a 100 watt light >bulb--perhaps hundreds or even thousands of times as great. If, therefore, >each cm^2 of surface area on Scott's cathode is putting out as much light >as a 100 watt light bulb, and Scott's cathode has 100 times the glowing >region of a 100 watt bulb, then it would be emitting 10,000 watts! To make >the matter worse, Scott's cathode is not pulling 100 watts, but 124 watts! >Of course, lots of that would take the form of heat, but by Wien's law the >frequency of maximum intensity is directly proportional to the absolute >temperature of the emitter, so it seems very plausible to me that the vast >majority of the emissions from Scott's cathode are *not* infrared, but at >visible frequencies or higher. If so, then he could be missing a >significant portion of his energy output by simply assuming that the energy >carried away in the form of visible light is negligible. --MJ}*** ***{As an addendum to the above, here is a crude test to determine whether there may be a problem in this area. Do a run at night with all the lights out, and see how well lighted the room is from the cell alone. Then, after the run is done, place a 100 watt light bulb at the same location as the cell, and see how well it lights the room. If the room is brighter when illuminated by the cell than it is when illuminated by the 100 watt light bulb, then I think you have a problem. --MJ}*** > >> >> >>> >>> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >>> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >>> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) >>> >>> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 09:19:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17785; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:17:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:17:12 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000112115743.0079b530 pop.mindspring.com> References: <01bb01bf5d19$53d692c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:11:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"it1_j2.0.mL4.MSBVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>If, therefore, >>each cm^2 of surface area on Scott's cathode is putting out as much light >>as a 100 watt light bulb, and Scott's cathode has 100 times the glowing >>region of a 100 watt bulb, then it would be emitting 10,000 watts! > >It can't be. It would be blinding. You could not even look in the direction >of the cell. ***{Of course not. That was just hyperbole--i.e., deliberate exaggeration to make a point. But the point was very serious: we don't need to miss much output power here in order to put Scott wildly over unity, because he is almost exactly at unity already. If, for example, his cell is putting out 124 watts at visible frequencies or higher, then his C.O.P. is 2.0, and Mizuno's OU result is confirmed. Moreover, it seems entirely conceivable to me that differences between Scott's configuration and Mizuno's could cause most of Scott's emissions to go out at higher frequencies. All it would take would be a higher cathode temperature. Bottom line: I'm sorry I distracted you with the hyperbole, Jed. I intended to emphasize the point, not to cause it to not be noticed! ;-) --MJ}*** It would look a little like the CF cell in the last scene of >the movie "The Saint," which vastly amused Mizuno when he saw it on the >plane coming back from Moscow. ***{Yup. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 10:36:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14629; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:34:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:34:06 -0800 Message-ID: <387CC851.455C ca-ois.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:30:41 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous Images References: <200001112225.RAA23789 fh105.infi.net> <387BE671.31D9@ca-ois.com> <387C0553.2211F908@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rgYSp1.0.Va3.TaCVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > A theory that "immobility period" depends on the size of the > object that is moving should be open to experimental verification. I agree, more experiments like these should be performed. If you can think of any other kinds of experiments pertinent to this issue, we would be interested in hearing about it. > Perhaps it could even be verified by re-examination of exisitng > experimental data. Boisvert spent several decades of his life experimenting with this phenomena, and Smith assures me that there is a large archive of documentation that is not posted on the website. Whether or not re-examining this other evidence will reveal anything beyond what has been posted, is an open question. > > On another subject, I have taken photos which produced a "smear". > In other photos, where I expected a smear, there was none. These > pictures were all taken at low speed. Are there some rules for > this sort of thing? I don't know. I've talked to professional photographers who are unable to explain Boisvert's results in terms of continuity, but most professional photographers are not really scientific investigators, because their procedures usually amount to intentionally trying to produce a pre determined result, rather than to follow and analyze the unexpected result in a systematic way. The anomalous results are usually relegated to the wastebasket. If I were you I would follow up, systematically, on anything unusual you find in your photographic efforts. > I would appreciate a reference. I suppose there are photography books and magazines out there that might be helpful in getting a handle on the "science" of photography, such as articles explaining how to match shutter speeds with light levels, and I plan to research this subject myself when I have some time. I will post anything interesting I find to the list. > Finally, the suspended bullet special effect in "The Matrix", with > tails, seem paradoxical. Did the special effects people get > this right? If there ARE discontinuities of motion, it would seem to follow that there could be different phases of material existence that we are unable to see or detect under ordinary circumstances, as the movie suggests. If the 1/64000 sec figure has a basis in reality as these experiments indicate, then experimenting with oscillations in the 64khz range might be fruitful, who knows? As far as did they get the bullets "right" in the movie, the size of the tails would indicate very fast bullets if they were supposed to be an indication of the spacing of 1/64000 second immobility periods. It is however doubtfull that the film producers got any of their ideas from Boisvert. It would be interesting to know where they did get those ideas from, though. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 10:37:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14920; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:34:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:34:22 -0800 Message-ID: <01af01bf5d13$7e8d1440$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112082104.0108ce04@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:41:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"9RgLK1.0.te3.kaCVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 6:21 AM Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Scott wrote: > At 03:13 PM 1/11/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >How do you or M&O account for the light/photon energy radiated out > >of the test vessel, Scott? > > The light's pretty dim, Fred. Even if it was as bright as a 100 watt light > bulb (it is orders of magnitude less), I believe that would only be about 7 > watts of power leaving as light. Isn't that about the efficiency of an > incandescent bulb? I guess that the best way to find out is to cover the outside of the beaker with aluminum foil, or silver it so that it acts somewatt like a dewar. Frederick > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 10:42:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18506; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:41:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:41:26 -0800 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:40:39 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Op Amp Power Meter Circuit In-Reply-To: <014f01bf5ca3$fb9a95e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FMqU_2.0.4X4.LhCVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick There are simple cheap analog multipliers avaiable. I don't have a manual here at school, but look in an Analog Devices or Linear Systems catalog, or on their web pages. Hank On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Hank wrote > > > > It integrates wrt time > > > > Of course, it's an analog computer circuit. :-) > > Looking at it as the area under an x and y sawtooth, you integrate the voltage > developed across a voltage divider, and a voltage developed across series > dropping resistor, V = I*R: > > V1 = x , V2 = y > > x > | > | /| > | / | > | / | > |/__|________ y > > Then to multiply, you use two integrators: > > Power = x*y = integral V1o to V1' V1 dV2 + integral V2o to V2' V2 dV1 > > As I see it, Hank you are solving for the sum of the areas under the two x y curves > to get Power (note the + sign indicating that you are adding the two areas)and you have to > use a time base to do it electrically. > > It ain't simple, is it? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 11:02:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25117; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:58:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:58:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387A06E1.B6CB1D49 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:53:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA25078 Resent-Message-ID: <"_Z5Zk1.0.L86.7xCVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >To all who are interested, >> > >> >I have been following the discussion of evil with a mixed feeling. On >>the one >> >hand, I agree this is not a scientific discussion. >> >> ***{This discussion, or at least my side of it, is an attempt to shed light >> on the reasons why anomalous science, including CF, evokes enormous >> hostility in the mainstream scientific community. It is a subject that has >> been discussed in this group for years--including lengthy comments by you, >> as a matter of fact--and it is unarguably on topic here. Whether it meets >> your definition of a "scientific" discussion is quite beside the point. >> --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Mitchell, your are starting off by making my point for me. We can not >even agree >about my trivial point of whether this is a scientific discussion such as >should >be on Vortex. ***{Thus far you have simply asserted that the present discussion does not belong on vortex, and have ignored the fact that in the past you have talked on at length here about precisely the same subject, albeit from your perspective rather than from mine. Therefore, in the absence of any explanation from you, I can only conclude that you believe your perspective is fit to be heard here, while mine is not. If that is in fact your position, then I am amazed that you are surprised we cannot agree. --MJ}*** > How can be hope to agree about what is evil? ***{Amazing insights flow out of substantive arguments, and, if they are permitted to go on long enough for the truth to out, they can produce major alterations in the views of the participants. While there are no guarantees that this will happen, it is certainly a strong enough prospect to justify hope. --MJ}*** > >> >> On the other hand, the >> >basic concept has been applied to people holding unpopular views in >>science. >> >> ***{The concept I am using applies only to people who seek material >> benefits by permitting "significant others" to transfer opinions into their >> skulls. Sometimes the transferred opinions could be described as "unpopular >> views in science," and sometimes not. For example, there are many people >> whose "significant others" are religious fundamentalists, and, as a result, >> they often permit themselves to be programmed to believe that biological >> evolution is false. But there is no consistent link relating evil to the >> popularity or unpopularity of the views that are acquired. For example, >> during their undergraduate years the "significant others" of many >> contemporary physicists included biology professors, and, to gain A's in >> their classes, many permitted themselves to be programmed to believe that >> evolution is true. In both of these examples, from my perspective, the >> processes by which the beliefs were acquired were evil, because it is a >> fundamental abandonment of moral responsibility to permit anyone to treat >> your mind as an inert vessel into which he can pour any opinion that he >> pleases. It doesn't matter whether, in a particular case, the opinion is >> true or false. What does matter is that if the opinion is accepted >> *uncritically*, with no attempt to ferret out contradictory information, >> then the individual is potentially open to anything, including things that >> are not merely wrong, but horrific. There is literally no limit to the >> depths to which a person can sink, once he gets in the habit of pursuing >> material benefits by letting other people program his brain. --Mitchell >> Jones}*** > >You are calling a normal and routine process of the human condition evil. ***{Very true. I should note, however, that "normal and routine" does not equate to "good." It was, for example, "normal and routine" in Nazi Germany to hate Jews; and human sacrifices were "normal and routine" in the domain of the Aztecs, prior to the Spanish conquest. --MJ}*** I >suggest your particular emotional reaction to the process comes from your life >experience. ***{My life's experiences merely provided me with food for thought. It was only after an analytical process that stretched out over a span of decades that I finally decided that this particular "normal and routine" aspect of the human condition is, in fact, the distilled essence of evil--i.e., that it is the cause of *all* of man's inhumanity to man. --MJ}*** My life experience does not cause me to have such a negative reaction >to this process. Granted it is a process which requires awareness ***{The problem is that things which we do repeatedly become habitual, and once things are habitual, they take place automatically, without the need to be monitored consciously. As a result, it is very dangerous for a person to employ selective thinking. If you avoid lines of thought that conflict with the opinions of "significant others" in order to obtain material benefits, the process will become habitual, and you will quickly *lose* the awareness which you say is required. It will become, for you, a normal pattern of thought. And that is, unfortunately, the state of mind of most of the people on this planet. You can observed the consequences in terms of oppression, bloodshed, and slaughter by simply picking up a newspaper, or turning on the nightly news. --MJ}*** . , but it is not >evil. To paint it this way is to cheapen the concept of evil. ***{Incorrect. If you spend enough time thinking about the topic, you will discover that the "normal and routine" tendency of human beings to employ selective thinking to believe what they want to believe is the cause of all the unnecessary sufferings that men inflict on their fellow men. From that insight it follows immediately that if selective thinking were to cease, man's inhumanity to man would also cease. People do horrible things to one another for one reason only: because they are acting on incorrect precepts which they adopted to fit in with "significant others" and, thus, made no effort to falsify. Since evil, from the perspective of reason, is that force in the world which causes man's inhumanity to man, it follows that the practice of selective thinking--i.e., of avoiding arguments that undercut what "significant others" want you to believe--is the distilled essence of evil. --MJ}*** > >> >> >The word evil and the meaning generally given comes from religion, in >> >particular the Christian religion. Other religions do not have this >>concept. >> >For example, Buddhism calls such actions the result of unenlightened >>behavior, >> >a much more useful concept. This being the case, I think a better word >>than >> >“evil” might be more useful to express your disgust with certain behavior. >> >> ***{Ed, I believe that the most appropriate term to use is "evil," but you >> can use any term to denote this concept that you like. What matters here is >> not so much what we call it as that we recognize that behavior arising from >> these types of motivations is real, and very widespread, and that it is the >> source of a major part of the hatred that has been directed against >> scientists who have made anomalous claims. --MJ}*** > >The basis for rejection of new ideas by scientists has nothing to do with >evil. >The reaction is based on a sincere belief that the new idea is nonsense >and on the >belief that science needs to be protected from such cheapening influence. ***{That's what they say, but their words are belied by their behavior. A person who sincerely believes that someone with a new idea has succumbed to nonsense does not sabotage every attempt at substantive dialogue by introducing irrelevant pejoratives into the discussion. Instead, if he lacks the time or interest to pursue the topic, he politely absents himself from the interaction; and if he does *not* absent himself, then he makes a polite attempt to understand the person's reasoning, to check out references cited by him, etc., so that any error which may be present can be identified. --MJ}*** Greed, >envy, and a wish to dominate can also play a role. ***{It is only a person motivated by hatred for those who had the courage to think for themselves ["envy," by your way of thinking], who responds to unorthodox opinions by introducing irrelevant pejoratives into the discussion [the "wish to dominate," by your way of thinking], and who refuses to familiarize himself with the actual facts and logic which impel the other person to believe as he does ["selective thinking," by my framework]. Thus, examined superficially, two aspects of the phenomenon would seem better explained your way than my way. However, I contend that the emotional states employed in your analysis are derivative consequences of an underlying cause--to wit: selective thinking. For example, a desire for material benefits is not greed unless it is inordinate--i.e., unless it prompts a person to sacrifice values that are more important, in order to obtain those benefits. Thus bank robbers are motivated by greed, because they sacrifice their ability to live at peace with society for a life on the run. And men who spend 80 hours a week fighting their way up the corporate ladder are greedy, because they sacrifice their family life. And so on. In each and every such case, powerful arguments exist indicating that the behavior is excessive and inappropriate, and, when the behavior persists in spite of those arguments, it is the result of selective thinking--i.e., because the person avoided lines of thought that undercut what he wanted to believe. Hence the cause of greed is selective thinking. Envy, also cited by you, is a feeling of hostility directed at the earned achievements of others. It arises because the person avoids thinking about evidence that achievements were earned, and focuses exclusively on arguments which suggest that they were *not* earned. As such, it is the result of selective thinking. The wish to dominate, also used as an explanatory vehicle by you, is a form of greed. It prompts a person to sacrifice values that are more important, such as love, friendship, loyalty, etc., in order to obtain various short-term material benefits associated with having one's way with others. Such sacrifices are made because the person who seeks to dominate focuses only on the benefits of his behavior, and avoids thinking about the costs. Hence, again, we are talking about the effects of selective thinking. Bottom line: all of the explanatory concepts employed in your analysis, when examined, are seen to arise out of selective thinking. Thus the more fundamental, and hence correct, analysis is the one based on use of the concept of selective thinking. --Mitchell Jones}*** None of these are evil unless >all humans are evil by your definition. ***{Selective thinking is not universal. It can be avoided by a person who understands its nature and is willing to give up the "benefits" that accrue from it. Unfortunately, it is a taboo subject, because selective thinkers apply selective thinking to avoid thinking about the subject of selective thinking. Most people feel guilty when it is discussed and want the person who is talking about it to shut up, because they have a peripheral awareness that they do it and that it is wrong. Thus it is tremendously important for those who do understand the concept to discuss it openly: things lurking in peripheral awareness can be brought into focal awareness by merely putting a description of them into words, and, when this topic is openly discussed, the character-related benefits to the participants tend to be very large, and immediate. [Note: to see the importance of putting things into words, consider Fred Sparber's recent argument that photon emissions may be carrying a significant proportion of the energy away from the Mizuno cell. I had held that possibility in my peripheral awareness for a very long time, but I had never pulled it into central awareness by putting it into words, and I'll bet that many others in this group were in the same situation. Once Fred applied words to the nagging notion that most of us had, it moved into focal awareness, and it became possible to deal with it, and to assess its importance, if any. While the outcome of that process is still to be determined, the importance of applying words to it is unarguable: when you name a thing and begin to talk about it, knowledge begins to accumulate. If the idea is important, only then can you ascertain that fact, and begin to benefit from it.] --MJ}*** > >> >> >I’m amazed at the variety of behavior and attitudes the two main >>participants >> >in this discussion find disgusting. Clearly, no agreement is possible >>because >> >this is a conflict in value systems which is impossible to resolve. >> >> ***{If you are saying that disputes about values, by their nature, do not >> permit of a reasoned outcome, then I strongly disagree. In my view, some >> values are objective, and when an argument about values involves a person >> who bases his arguments on such values, it becomes possible to reach a >> reasoned conclusion. Nothing, of course, forces the losing party to admit >> that he is wrong, but that is quite a separate question from the issue of >> whether a reasoned conclusion can be reached. --MJ}*** > >Values are based on emotion, not reason. Consequently, reason has very little >effect. Values can be changed but not in a forum such as Vortex. ***{Emotions are the habituated results of the thinking a person has done or has failed to do. (For example, an ordinary person would be horrified at seeing someone's chest cut open with a scalpel, but after the study and experiences associated with surgical training, those emotions go away.) Hence the fact that values are linked to emotions does not mean they cannot be based on reason. But in order for that to happen, the first thing a person must do is understand the nature of selective thinking, and decide to eliminate it from his mental activities. --MJ}*** > >> >> That is >> >why wars are fought. >> >> ***(Wars are fought because most of the people on this planet are in the >> habit of uncritically adopting beliefs in order to fit in. People who >> refuse to be programmed by others do not beat the drums for war, because >> the destructiveness of war is easily apparent to anyone who thinks >> critically about it. Such people endorse war only in response to >> aggression, and then only as a last resort. --MJ}*** > >While I agree with and admire many of your insights about science, I think >you are >very naive on this subject. ***{Surely you can see the importance of selective thinking in the mental processes of those who beat the drums for war! If a man is concerned about human suffering and loss of life, he can advocate war for trivial goals only if he refuses to think in concrete terms about the the events that take place on the battlefield. And if a man is not concerned with human suffering and loss of life, it can only be because of some deeper personality disorder that, itself, will ultimately be traceable back to selective thinking. (For example, the CEO of a munitions company, if motivated by greed, might beat the drums for war. But, as we have seen, greed is a byproduct of selective thinking.) --MJ}*** > >> >> That is also why science avoids such subjects in its >> >effort to resolve differences of opinion about nature. >> >> ***{Science does not avoid such subjects at all, if by "avoid" you mean >> that discussions between scientists are objective, level headed, >> substantive, and motivated by a dispassionate search for the truth. In >> point of fact vast numbers of discussions between "scientists" involve >> participants who are motivated by *pure evil*, as you may verify for >> yourself by checking out the internet cesspool known as sci.physics.fusion, >> where any attempt at a reasoned discussion is derailed by people who are >> motivated by hatred of anyone who exhibits a willingness to question the >> paradigms of establishment physics. Worse, behavior in that group is >> representative of the reaction of the mainstream physics community to >> anomalous research. --MJ}*** > >By using the word evil to describe behavior, you add a value judgment which is >only in your value system. ***{I should think the appropriate question here would be whether the value judgment is based on the evidence. If, in fact, selective thinking is the force which causes all of man's inhumanity to man, then how could anyone argue that it is *not* the distilled essence of evil? --MJ}*** More to the point, this approach can completely hide >from your understanding actually what is going on and the methods for >resolving >the problem. ***{As can yours, if you are wrong. Thus we need to decide which approach is correct, do we not? --MJ}*** While you may feel more "perfect" in the process ***{We all become better persons as we are more successful at eliminating selective thinking from our mental repertoires. A better program for the improvement of a person's self-image does not exist. --MJ}*** , you are isolating >yourself from the very people you need to influence. ***{Being rejected by persons who are determined to not hear what I have to say on this subject is a price I am willing to pay. What kind of person would I be if I made no attempt to assist people in recognizing the damage they are doing to themselves, and to mankind in general, when they reject the truth in order to curry favor with people who can provide them with material benefits? --MJ}*** While the motivations of >scientist are frequently not "pure", you need to understand just what your >motivations might be. If eliminating evil, as you define it, is one of >them, I >think you are going to be very frustrated and ineffective. ***{Oddly, that is not the case. I do not feel responsible for the consequences of decisions made by others. If I see a man standing under a safe that is suspended from a frayed rope, I will point out the risk to him; but if he stubbornly insists on standing there, it will not bother me in the least when the safe finally falls. I try to exert a positive influence when I can, but I also accept that others are free agents who, ultimately, are responsible for their own actions. --MJ}*** > >> >> Once such discussions >> >are defined in terms of "evil", all hope for a resolution is lost. >> >> ***{Not at all. It is possible to reach a reasoned conclusion by >> demolishing irrational arguments, even when the discussion is concerned >> with moral values, if one of the participants in a discussion bases his >> arguments on moral values. Persuading the person whose arguments have been >> demolished to admit that he is wrong, or even to stop beating his gums, is >> of course quite another matter. However, the latter problem afflicts *all* >> discussions, including even those which you would grant are "scientific." >> It is simply a fact that most arguments end with one of the participants >> lapsing into silence, and it is frequently the one who is correct who does >> that, for no better reason than that he is tired of demolishing the same >> tired statements over and over again. --MJ}*** > >Have you ever demolished an irrational argument? ***{And actually had that fact be admitted by the other party? Sure. Many times. There are more good people in the world than you imagine. --MJ}*** Can you not visualize both >parties thinking they are correct and lapsing into silence for the same >reason? ***{Sure. Selective thinkers tend to eventually persuade themselves that they were right, by the simple expedient of forgetting the arguments which were used to demolish their positions. (This is the "memory hole" phenomenon. :-) At the time the argument is actually going on, however, they usually reveal that they are aware of their difficulties by introducing irrelevant pejoratives into the discussion. That behavior is like a leper's bell: it tells you (a) that you are dealing with a selective thinker, and (b) that he is very aware, at that moment, that his position is in ruins. --MJ}*** > >> >> >Therefore, for the sake of the worthwhile contributions you all can and >>have >> >made to science, I suggest you keep your value system to yourselves. >> >> ***{How do you keep the hatred which evil men feel for innovators out of >> scientific discussions, Ed? Merely saying that such behavior is motivated >> by value systems and that people should keep their value systems out of >> scientific discussions will not do it. The only way to deal with people who >> spew their hatred by introducing pejoratives into discussions is to develop >> a toolbox of techniques for dealing with them. And the only way to do that >> is to understand what they are, and, in particular, to understand the >> character flaws which motivate their misbehavior. If you do that, then you >> place yourself in a position to actually *enjoy* interacting with them, >> because it becomes child's play to slap them down. That way, you exit the >> arena only when you become bored, rather than because they put up such a >> stench that they drove you out. --MJ}*** > >Talking about values, i.e. evil, is much different from discussing the >facts of >science. Granted, values do color how the facts are interpreted but this is a >problem which can not be solved. Two people can discuss a subject and reach >agreement only if their values overlap. Otherwise they will be talking at >cross >purpose, as you have found during some of your discussions. When this >happens, a >wise person goes off to find someone who will listen rather than beating >against a >stone wall. ***{True, but a man does not become wise by cutting and running while insights are continuing to flow from a discussion, even if the opponent is exhibiting stubbornness, or has become somewhat unpleasant. --MJ}*** This is what I intend to do with this discussion. ***{That's your call, not mine. --MJ}*** > >Regards, >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 11:24:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03939; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:22:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:22:34 -0800 Message-ID: <387CD3A1.4C8F ca-ois.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:18:57 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous Images References: <000701bf5d3b$5f80bf70$01010a0a WORKGROUP.eternite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a-Q-U.0.Tz.vHDVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cedric_Mannu wrote: > > Hi all, > > Dicontinuity of motion implies dicontinuity of matter. > > I proved this in a mathematical treaty > > http://www.eternite.com/secret. > Hi Cedric. Welcome to Vortex! I think you will find here that mathematics by itself proves very little to anyone participating on this forum. It's experimental results that count. Even when you have the experimental evidence for something, some people will not even acknowledge THAT. However, if you can think of a way to show what you have "proved" mathematically in the form of an actual experimental demonstration, I'm sure most of us would be interested. But I would tend to agree with you that discontnuity of motion implies discontinuity of matter, in the sense that matter may "oscillate" in and out of "existence" as best we can define "existence" at this time. The uncertainty "principle" (Heisenberg) would indicate that perhaps our definitions of "existence" are not clarified sufficiently in order to make everyone understand what we are talking about when we use the word.. Some people have even told me that they believe only things which are "apparent" actually exist in a material sense, therefore radio "waves" and magnetic fields cannot exist "really". That doesn't make sense to me but when it is convenient people use the same argument to deny the "existence" of God. Where are the "particles" that make up a magnetic field, for example? I don't think science will ever find any kind of particle that would adequately account for or explain a magnetic field, because that would imply a "flow" of these particles in the same physical sense as a flow of water between north and south poles, and if that were true, we could put a turbine in there and drain the energy from magnets. The explanation of magnetism will have to come from elsewhere than continuous "particle" theory. One way is to visualize it is possibly timeflow displacements between poles. If matter were to be immobilized mometarily it might therefore "push" against the current of time represented as "flowing" between poles. Perhaps such timeflows could be altered or manpulated by varying magnetic field strengths in regions of the alleged discontinuity of motion frequency proposed by Boisvert. Who knows? Perhaps what is needed is a "New Physics" independent of the mantras of dogmatists. That is why most of us are here. For the others, just keep repeating the following Mantra: The "principle of continuity - OMMMM "....over and over. Jim Ostrowski > More discontinuity of matter, implies from Jacques Ravatin's work > that we have phenomenae such as "localisation", "delocalisation", > > apparition/disparition. > > Delocalisation happens when the centripete movement is strong enough > to attain the levels described by Schauberger, where matter is so condensed > that it physical "disappear" to higher levels of energy > > This condensation/expansion phenomenae, at hearth in any process of > creation/destruction, can easily be understood from the Berkeley's > statement. > > They're statment was speaking for energy when i would probably prefer the > term Aether, but it said > all matter is energy in a given form (static) > all waves phenomena like light ... is energy in another form (dynamic) > > Thus universe is made of the same thing in two aspects. > > We can also know now that all matter derives from H chemically. > > Discontinuity of space, time, matter and energy is Reality. > Continuousness is an effect of psyche, linked to conscious state. > > We make duration where nature is always life and death in the same time, > thus discontinuous. > > Next to speak with you > > C. Mannu > > PS : i encourage you to see the mathematical treaty to see how true and > strong it is. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Ostrowski [mailto:jimostr ca-ois.com] > Sent: mardi 11 janvier 2000 00:24 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Anomalous Images > > Fellow Vortexians, > > Two momths ago, I invited everyone to review the evidence for > "Discontinuity of Motion" (motion quantization) posted at the site: > > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html > > The response to this invititation was a mixture of incredulity, helpful > suggestions, constructive criticism, and derision. I could attach names > to each of these categories, however, this is unnecessary since I'm sure > you all know who you are. > > There have been further experiments and equipment calibration. > > My friend Frank Stenger, Research Engineer, NASA (ret.) formerly of > this list, constructed a "Super BB" gun capable of firing a projectile > that will traverse it's own diametric length in less than 1/64000 > second, the hypothesized "quantum moment" of the universe. No > photographic tests similar to Boisvert's "quantum leap" procedure have > as yet been conducted, however Frank did some "grazing tests" firing > BB's at some soft aluminum at a very small angle. No evidence of any > discontinuous activity was obtained from those tests, nor from firing > the BB through variously spaced foils show anything anomalous or > unexpected by those who believe motion is continuous. It should be > noted, however, that the theory's main proponent, Gordon Smith stated > prior to these test runs that our notions of how the phenomena "should" > work were incorrect, and predicted that indeed, continuous tracks would > be produced by these kinds of tests. > > Smith nonetheless is unable to think of any other experiments besides > photographic ones that will produce the anomalous results or information > consistent with the original thesis. Therefore what we are left with is > the images, which remain unexplained. > > In order to rule out possible "strobing" effects of the flash unit, a > Honeywell Auto/Strobonar 360, Smith had the unit calibrated and the > voltage and current graphed by a technician at the British Columbia > Institute of Technology, Kam Fung. I wrote the procedure for these > tests, which Kam did follow quite well, however he believed an > additional photosensor measurement was necessary, from which he > concluded that the light output did not really track the flashtube > voltage or current characteristics at all. > Kam believes that the smoother output of the photosensor is a more > accurate indication > of how the flashtube really responds over the given intervals. I would > tend to disagree with this due to the slow response time of the sensor > he used (7 usec), however, either way there is no indication that the > motive discontinuities evident in some of the photographs at the above > mentioned site are a result of unusual or unexpected flashtube or > energizing circuit behaviour. > > The complete BCIT report is available in html by clicking here: > > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/testres.html > > In the recently acquired light of these calibration results, one still > wonders how the photos taken at the 1/2000 second settings (setup 2, > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Setup2.html#Photo Setup 2 ) and displayed > at: > > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html > > and: > > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html > > were produced, were motion not discontinuous in the manner and > approximate durations which Smith describes. > > Since I assured Smith that we Vortexians were among the most enlightened > association of scientists and engineers available anywhere, I would > appreciate if we treat Smith, who admits he is not a "professional" > "scientist" with the respect due anyone who joined in with a new and > unsusual "crackpot" theory, backed up by real experiment. I'm not asking > anyone to accept Smith's ideas out of hand, be as critical as you need > be, however downgrading his ideas because they do not align with our own > notions of what is "impossible" because of our own "pet theories" (such > as the alleged "principle" of continuity) will be vigorously challenged > by me persanally, complete with my judgemental evaluations of > hypocritical attitudes not in keeping with "The Spirit of Vortex". > > Although I do not expect Smith to participate except when additional > information is requested, he will be monitoring our discussions. > > Thanks to those who want to be helpful. > > Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 13:25:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07155; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:22:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:22:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387CF0D0.2304C9DC ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:23:53 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PtaQE2.0.el1.L2FVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK Mitchell, you wish is define evil as "selective thinking". A Christian might define it as going against the will of God, or the United States might be considered evil by some Moslems. But you choose "selective thinking", so lets go with that definition . Unfortunately, it has been my experience that everyone, including you and I, use selective thinking. The only difference is what we select to think about or what we select to emphasize as being important. We can make this selection based on facts and rational argument, we can chose to believe our peers, or we can be guided solely by self interest, to cite a few examples. You choose to believe only the first method is "good" and the others are "evil". Unfortunately, "facts" are not always true and rational argument ignores the other ways for judging reality including intuition and spiritual guidance. I'm afraid the situation is much too complex for such a simple definition of evil to be of much value. On the other hand, I agree with you that people can be blinded by habits of thinking and that their selections can be very destructive. I think you will agree with me that changes in habits of thinking are very difficult to change and a change is not likely to occur based on a discussion such as ours. People motivated to change their habit of thinking go to great lengths and endure much suffering to accomplish such a goal. Therefore, our discussion can only be a statement of our personal beliefs which will have no effect on anyone else including each other. In this context, the discussion should not be part of Vortex. We are not attempting to solve a problem of science, i.e. the world around us, but are addressing a personal reality. While you are correct in saying I have made statements about skeptics and their personal reality, these comments are in the context of a scientific reality, not in an effort to change their personal reality, i.e. their habit of thinking. .If scientific views are based mainly on a habit of thinking, only death will change what is believed, which is why new ideas only flourish in the next generation. This being the case, if you want to continue this discussion , I suggest it be done privately. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 13:51:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20249; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:48:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:48:52 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:48:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2etp7s07ulhu4uig6jgj5lpgev6uhlbbqn 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84@mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112080001.00732f60@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000112080001.00732f60 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA20219 Resent-Message-ID: <"gjYeQ1.0.Jy4.3RFVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:00:01 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 04:39 PM 1/12/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>There is another point connected to this too. If their rate of spin is high >>enough, then the liquid will tend to rise around the walls of the cell, and >>drop in the middle. This will change the surface area to volume ratio >>(possibly considerably), and facilitate cooling. > >I worried about the effect of the electrolyte level until I realized that, >during operation, the head space above the electrolyte is full of steam >that is continuously condensing on the walls of the vessel. That >effectively heats those walls and makes the vessel "look" like its nearly >full of electrolyte, which is the condition when we perform the cooling >curves. [snip] Silly question: Doesn't the steam at the top condense at a boiling temp. and hence lose heat faster than the electrolyte itself (which from run 8, doesn't appear to top 80 ºC)? I presume you have taken this into account. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 14:33:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16268; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:31:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:31:42 -0800 (PST) MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:30:59 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:15:11 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:29:05 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil In-reply-to: To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:31:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2361ZYGYP1NFM X400-MTS-identifier: [;95037121100002/4391354 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"EphqM2.0.0-3.C3GVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, Yes, occasional short term "Off Topic" discussions do occur on this list. They quickly die off, and usually start in relation to a specific related scientific interest. Your "Off Topic" subjects don't quickly die off, or are related to some scientific discussion. You actually only have one topic, that you keep bringing up under different headings. Or you have infected someone else's legitement topic with you own ongoing topic. The current reincarnation of this on-going topic is this "Evil" theme. By the rules of this list, and to use your terminology, YOU are a source of Evil. While others may get involved in "Off Topic" discussions to a lesser level of Evil, you use this as an excuse to perpetuate a greater level of Evil upon us. Or to paraphrase your own statement: > the "normal and routine" tendency of YOU to employ selective thinking > to believe what YOU want to believe is the cause of this unnecessary > suffering that YOU inflict on YOUR fellow list members. Ever since I joined this list many people have attempted to get you to lay off the politics. At one point a separate list was created for "Off Topic" discussions, primarily I think because of YOU. BUT YOU CAN'T SEEM TO TAKE A HINT!!! Are you dense? Or are you on a pseudo religious MISSION to convert us heathens to your paranoid way of thinking? While at the same time you ridicule anyone who you perceive to be trying to "force" their way of thinking on you. Let anyone even mention GOD, and you go into a frothing lather of contempt & ridicule. Yet you go on & on & on about your own sacred dogma. Does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? How many people have left this list in disgust? How many other lists are you corrupting? How many world saving discoveries have gone unfound because someone didn't see the piece of information they needed to get that great idea, because they left a list because of you? How much damage have you done to the world? Get a life, get some help, or just get lost! I'm probably going to regret sending this, but you have an absolute talent for pissing people off. Maybe I should just go home and do something more agreeable then having to wade through your 'delete before reading' invective, like cleaning my cats litter box. ;^) Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 14:48:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09006; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:46:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:46:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000112164250.01cfc570 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:42:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01bf5d19$53d692c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA08928 Resent-Message-ID: <"w0-OO1.0.XC2.9HGVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:00 AM 1/12/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{As an addendum to the above, here is a crude test to determine whether >there may be a problem in this area. Do a run at night with all the lights >out, and see how well lighted the room is from the cell alone. Then, after >the run is done, place a 100 watt light bulb at the same location as the >cell, and see how well it lights the room. I have already done this with the lights on. The cell is very comfortable to view. The light is not too bright at all...in fact you have to be looking at the cell in order to notice that it is emitting light. I frequently use a 100 watt lamp on the bench as a dummy load for testing power meters. I find such a source painfully bright and cannot look directly at it. I'm guessing that the cell produces maybe 100 times less light than a 100 watt bulb. At 08:48 AM 1/13/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Silly question: Doesn't the steam at the top condense at a boiling temp. and >hence lose heat faster than the electrolyte itself (which from run 8, >doesn't appear to top 80 ºC)? I presume you have taken this into account. I guess so, but I'm a little confused. Run 8 was performed with the cell in our water-flow calorimeter where all the heat is collected because the water-flow heat exchanger surrounds the cell, etc. etc. However, the present discussion centers around a different style of calorimetry in which the electrolyte IS boiling and we are concerned with estimating the rate of heat loss thru the walls of the cell. Jed, Regarding the idea of visiting Mizuno, you must have a pretty good idea what I'd be up against. First, it would be a wonderful event if my calorimeter confirmed Mizuno's excess heat readings...no question about that. But let's consider what would happen if it didn't, that is if M's cell showed a 1.00 power balance in my calorimeter. Let's further assume that I had also demonstrated to M that my calorimeter reads zero when it's suppposed to and reads a 1.00 power balance on a calibration resistor cell. Let's further assume that we had already tried several cathodes and that none of them showed excess heat in my calorimeter. We could even further assume that M had subsequently taken one or two of these cathodes and tried them in his setup and they still showed excess heat there. How do you think M would react to that? At that point, I guess it would be up to me to pinpoint the source of his error(s). Otherwise we could go on forever suspecting that some bizarre influence of my calorimeter was somehow supressing the positive effect that he sees with his calorimetry. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 16:45:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08715; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:42:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:42:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387CF0D0.2304C9DC ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:48:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"lqJyF2.0.482.A-HVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >OK Mitchell, you wish is define evil as "selective thinking". A Christian >might >define it as going against the will of God, or the United States might be >considered evil by some Moslems. But you choose "selective thinking", so >lets go >with that definition . Unfortunately, it has been my experience that >everyone, >including you and I, use selective thinking. ***{Remembering, of course, that by selective thinking I mean the selective use of criticism--that is, the practice of exempting that which we want to believe from criticism. --MJ}*** The only difference is what we >select to think about or what we select to emphasize as being important. ***{No, the difference is how we think about the "truths" that we regard as important. In my view, we must relentlessly seek to falsify any "truths" which we regard as important, and give our allegiance only to those which survive. In the common view, on the other hand, we must exempt from criticism any "truths" which we regard as important, in order to *ensure* their survival. The former approach is what, traditionally, has been known as *reason*. The latter approach is what I term *selective thinking*. --MJ}*** We can >make this selection based on facts and rational argument ***{That is, we can choose the good. --MJ}*** , we can chose to believe >our peers ***{Believing your peers is fine, if you do so after making a serious effort to falsify their statements. It is only if you exempt their statements from criticism in an attempt to fit in, that I object to the process. --MJ}*** , or we can be guided solely by self interest ***{Self-interest is fine, is one pursues it in accordance with principles that one has made a serious effort to falsify, and failed. If one pursues it according to principles that one has exempted from criticism, however, then I object to it. In other words, rational self-interest is fine and dandy. Irrational self-interest is quite another matter. --MJ}*** , to cite a few examples. >You choose to believe only the first method is "good" and the others are >"evil". ***{No. As noted above, the distinctions you are making are incorrect. In fact, I don't even object to religion, if a man arrives at his religious beliefs at the end of a serious and sustained effort to falsify each and every religious "truth" that he deems important. (Oddly, I've known a few people who did that. Their belief systems, however, did not match up with anything which common people would define as religion. One of these people, in fact, became quite exasperated with me after a lengthy argument, and stated quite bluntly: "Mitch, you are mistaken in thinking that you are an atheist. You are, by far, the most religious person I have ever known." While I strongly disagree with that assertion, I note it here for a very simple reason: it illustrates the immense gulf between the thinking of people who are *serious* about their religious/philosophical beliefs, and those who regard them as merely things which one says in order to fit in. If there is such a thing as a true religion, in short, you will not find it except at the end of a sustained search, spread over the decades of your life, and guided by the light of reason alone. If you seek it by uncritically adopting the beliefs of "Holy Men" in order to fit in with some group, your reward at the end will not be the opportunity to look upon the face of God, but rather to look upon the face of Evil.) --MJ}*** >Unfortunately, "facts" are not always true and rational argument ignores >the other >ways for judging reality including intuition ***{"Intuition" is just a reference to the judgments we make in situations where calculation is not possible. In such situations, we are guided by a feeling about what is correct and what is incorrect. The source of that feeling is our subconscious minds, where are stored memories of every similar decision we have made in our lives, and all the thinking we have done about them. Result: if we have avoided selective thinking, and have applied reason to such decision making, our intuitive judgments will be in accordance with that past history of rational thought, and will be highly accurate. On the other hand, if the memories we have stored in our subconscious involve decisions made on whim, or to please "significant others," rather than decisions based on reason, then our intuitive judgments will be just as irrational as those past judgments, and just as inaccurate. --MJ}*** and spiritual guidance. ***{I don't object to "spiritual guidance" of the sort obtained by talking to a rabbi or a minister, provided that a serious effort to falsify the advice is made before acting upon it. --MJ}*** I'm afraid >the situation is much too complex for such a simple definition of evil to >be of >much value. ***{It is, indeed, complex. As I said, it took me decades of thought to arrive at the simple truth that the employment of selective criticism is the distilled essence of evil, and I don't expect to convince anyone of the validity of that conclusion in the brief time we have available to us here. My comments on this topic are intended as food for thought, nothing more. What you will make of these ideas is up to you. --MJ}*** > >On the other hand, I agree with you that people can be blinded by habits of >thinking and that their selections can be very destructive. I think you will >agree with me that changes in habits of thinking are very difficult and >a change is not likely to occur based on a discussion such as ours. ***{Ed, I don't know you well enough to say whether it is likely or not. It all depends on what you do with these ideas after we stop talking about them. If you never think about them again, then you will forget every word I have said to you, and all of these insights will simply vanish into a "memory hole." But I don't know whether you will do that or not. The only way for me to determine that would be to wait six months or a year, and bring the subject up again. If, when I do that, I discover that you have no memory of this discussion whatsoever, then I will have my answer. --MJ}*** People >motivated to change their habit of thinking go to great lengths and endure >much >suffering to accomplish such a goal. Therefore, our discussion can only be a >statement of our personal beliefs which will have no effect on anyone else >including each other. ***{Ed, in six months I will remember this conversation and everything I have learned from it, and so I can guarantee that I will be affected by it. I choose to be affected by everything I learn. Whether that will also be true of you I have no way of knowing. --MJ}*** In this context, the discussion should not be part of >Vortex. We are not attempting to solve a problem of science, i.e. the world >around us, but are addressing a personal reality. ***{I disagree. Were this concept of evil to become generally accepted, *all* of the self-inflicted problems of mankind, including those of science, would be permanently solved. Hence the import of this discussion is not limited to any "personal reality" at all. --MJ}*** While you are correct in saying >I have made statements about skeptics and their personal reality, these >comments >are in the context of a scientific reality, not in an effort to change their >personal reality, i.e. their habit of thinking. If scientific views are based >mainly on a habit of thinking, only death will change what is believed, >which is >why new ideas only flourish in the next generation. ***{While this is true of most scientists, it is *not* true of all. Even some old dogs can learn new tricks, as you and I both demonstrate every day. I would suggest, therefore, that you are more deeply pessimistic about the human condition that I (who woulda thought it!), and that your greater pessimism is unwarranted. (Think, Ed! How could it *possibly* be correct to be more pessimistic than me? :-) --MJ}*** This being the case, if you >want to continue this discussion , I suggest it be done privately. ***{If you choose to respond privately, then so will I. My preference, however, is to do this publicly. After all, you never know who might jump in, and what insights might result, if you hide your light under a bushel. --MJ}*** > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 18:20:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10863; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:19:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:19:17 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:29:31 -0500 Message-ID: <20000113022931484.AAA80 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"J9Ot03.0.ff2.aOJVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >How do you think M would react to that? > >At that point, I guess it would be up to me to pinpoint the source of his >error(s). Otherwise we could go on forever suspecting that some bizarre >influence of my calorimeter was somehow supressing the positive effect that >he sees with his calorimetry. This is being quite considerate of Mizuno's personal feelings Scott, and characteristicly nice of you, but I'm sure that Mizuno would react to a null test as a scientist. In other words, he would try and pinpoint the differences between the calorimeters, and determine which was "more accurate". While you have done a remarkable job in replicating his work despite all the frustrations, there are still some areas that we know are possible causes for the differences in findings that are not bizarre or out of the ordinary in any way. They are just mundane, everyday engineering details that can be worked out over long distance if the right techniques are employed. As for taking the trip, I would like encourage the idea that it would be better for everyone in the long run to better use the technologies available to us to communicate better. Perhaps petitioning the school's administrators by both you and Dr. Mizuno to assign more computer science students to the task of setting up and facilitating the exchange of visual and sound data would be a better course of action. In the short run, this would be less expensive than a flight and accommodations, plus it would establish a long-term relationship of higher quality communications between your two science efforts and the rest of the world in general. Computer science students need this kind of real world, hands-on kind of experience anyway, so I would think that, properly presented, the school's administration would likely be positive to the idea. Students trained to solve these kinds of problems effectively will be of the greatest asset to the engineering communities of the future. I think that probably the most important aspect of your experimentation over the last years has not dealt with Cold Fusion so much as it has been the free education of all who have chosen to participate in whatever ways that they have. Your documentation of your experiments both in text and with photographs provide an excellent model to the educational world that is quite commendable, and yet still has the potential to evolve into an even more effective way to do science and education. I don't know how much of the nuts and bolts of the web publishing you are actually doing yourself, but even your own backers might see the sense in providing you with some additional help or training in this area. The evolution of the internet has been so rapid that even the IT departments of the most well heeled organizations are having difficulties keeping up, but I know that continuing to push the envelope in this regard will be to the benefit of us all. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 18:27:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13755; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:25:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:25:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000113102308.00963950 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:23:08 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Nature reports effect on atomic clocks of 1999 eclipse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZPkw43.0.kM3.gUJVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nature 16 December 1999 (Vol 402, p 749) contains a short report on some relative measurements between atomic clocks during the 1999 eclipse. A null result, but this is the way science should be done - the complete data set is made available on the web in case someone wants to process it in a different manner! Isn't it about time we heard from Nasa about their compilation of results from the Allais tests? Something I was not awake to before which I have since realised is why Allais considered the 24 or 25 hour period effect in his results so significant. That is because any gravitational effect produced by the sun (24hr) or moon (~25hr) such as earth tides, tilts etc, will vary at twice this rate and the double frequency effect should vastly dominate over any orbital or spin fundamental frequencies. This is not the case in his data - the 24-25 hour effect greatly dominate any 12-12.5 hour effect. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 18:55:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23216; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:54:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:54:05 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:04:22 -0500 Message-ID: <20000113030422906.AAA44 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"VuZFy3.0.gg5.DvJVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{If you choose to respond privately, then so will I. My preference, >however, is to do this publicly. After all, you never know who might jump >in, and what insights might result, if you hide your light under a bushel. >--MJ}*** While I haven't participated in this at all, I have been following it with great interest. Almost everyone in this group has crawled right up my nose at one time or another, and Mitch is no exception, but what I have learned has been invaluable. Whether you continue doing it here, in private or on VortexB, I encourage you to keep thinking and discussing. While the world desperately needs a better source of energy, I think that it needs even more to be able to openly express and exchange views in a mature, honest and rational manner, even if the views are disturbing or unpopular, without having to fear undue condemnation, threats or outright dismissal. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 19:05:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA27239; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:03:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:03:32 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:03:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01bb01bf5d19$53d692c0$6f441d26@fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081006.01df7eec@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.200001121642 50.01cfc570 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000112164250.01cfc570 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA27214 Resent-Message-ID: <"9pvJF.0.Xf6.32KVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:42:50 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >>Silly question: Well I got that bit right. >>Doesn't the steam at the top condense at a boiling temp. and >>hence lose heat faster than the electrolyte itself (which from run 8, >>doesn't appear to top 80 ºC)? I presume you have taken this into account. > >I guess so, but I'm a little confused. Run 8 was performed with the cell >in our water-flow calorimeter where all the heat is collected because the >water-flow heat exchanger surrounds the cell, etc. etc. However, the >present discussion centers around a different style of calorimetry in which >the electrolyte IS boiling and we are concerned with estimating the rate of >heat loss thru the walls of the cell. Sorry, question withdrawn. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 19:43:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08013; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:41:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:41:55 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Nature reports effect on atomic clocks of 1999 eclipse Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:52:12 -0500 Message-ID: <20000113035212171.AAA199 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ty6hN2.0.7z1.3cKVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: jwinter writes: >Something I was not awake to before which I have since realised is why >Allais considered the 24 or 25 hour period effect in his results so >significant. That is because any gravitational effect produced by the >sun (24hr) or moon (~25hr) such as earth tides, tilts etc, will vary at >twice this rate and the double frequency effect should vastly dominate >over any orbital or spin fundamental frequencies. This is not the case >in his data - the 24-25 hour effect greatly dominate any 12-12.5 hour >effect. I didn't realize this was even an issue. Any sailor can tell you that there are two high tides in a day - one is always a bit higher. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 20:02:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19626; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:00:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:00:27 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:57:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil Resent-Message-ID: <"eBPlS.0.Oo4.OtKVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell, > >Yes, occasional short term "Off Topic" discussions do occur on this list. > >They quickly die off, and usually start in relation to a specific >related scientific interest. > >Your "Off Topic" subjects don't quickly die off, or are related to some >scientific discussion. You actually only have one topic, that you keep >bringing up under different headings. Or you have infected someone else's >legitement topic with you own ongoing topic. > >The current reincarnation of this on-going topic is this "Evil" theme. ***{On vortex-l, we discuss issues related to anomalous science. That means we discuss results that do not seem to fit the generally accepted scientific paradigm, and the generalized context in which those results arise. That generalized context very specifically includes discussions of the hostility with which investigators of anomalous results have been confronted by members of the orthodox scientific community. Because of the nature of these results and of the reactions which they evoke, diverse analytical perspectives have been encouraged in this group, and many members have commented, both on the results and on the generalized context in which they occur, based on analytical perspectives that differ from the one espoused by mainstream science. Jim Ostrowski's attempt to analyze the "Shroud of Turin" from his particular religious perspective is an example. Nobody complained about his perspective, because diverse perspectives are allowed here. And, obviously, he was *on topic*, because if the image on the shroud were the actual image of Jesus Christ, placed there by some bizarre contact process, that would be about as anomalous as anything ever gets. By the same token, my attempt to explain the treatment handed out to scientific heretics in terms of my concept of evil is on topic here, because anomalous science and scientific heresy go hand in hand, and my analytical perspective, while different from the norm, is as acceptable here as anyone else's. There are no limits in this group, concerning the perspective from which a topic is analyzed, because, obviously, if a scientific result really *is* anomalous, it is of necessity going to require an unorthodox perspective for its explanation. --MJ}*** > >By the rules of this list, and to use your terminology, YOU are a source of >Evil. While others may get involved in "Off Topic" discussions to a lesser >level of Evil, you use this as an excuse to perpetuate a greater level of >Evil upon us. ***{Rubbish. You just don't like my perspective, that's all. Why not at least be honest enough to say what you really mean? --MJ }*** > >Or to paraphrase your own statement: > >> the "normal and routine" tendency of YOU to employ selective thinking >> to believe what YOU want to believe is the cause of this unnecessary >> suffering that YOU inflict on YOUR fellow list members. ***{Who appointed you to speak for others? If you are "suffering" as a result of reading my messages, then don't read them. See how simple that was? But, of course, that doesn't satisfy you, now does it? And why not? The answer, obviously, is that you can't stand the thought that *others* might be reading my comments. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Ever since I joined this list many people have attempted to get you to lay >off the politics. At one point a separate list was created for "Off Topic" >discussions, primarily I think because of YOU. > >BUT YOU CAN'T SEEM TO TAKE A HINT!!! > >Are you dense? ***{If I think a message relates directly to anomalous science, I post it on vortex-l. If I think that connection is tenuous or absent, I post it to vortexb-l. But I am easy to work with: if a respondent to one of my posts places his reply on vortexb-l, or sends it via private e-mail, then I divert my reply to vortexb-l, or to private e-mail, as the case may be. Thus when Jim O. took the generalized "Evil" thread to vortexb-l, I followed. But since I had something to say directly about the motivations of those who persecute scienfific heretics, I posted those comments on vortex-l. Since then, the latter thread has continued on vortex-l for one reason only: because all of those who responded to it placed their replies on vortex-l. While two of those respondents (you and Ed Storms) have alleged that the thread was off topic, neither of you have diverted your responses to vortexb-l, despite the fact that both of you apparently believe it should go there. Nevertheless, despite the fact that you are responding on vortex-l to posts made on vortex-l, here you are, ranting and raving at me for doing exactly the same thing! In response to your asking me if I am dense, therefore, here is my answer: no, but you are apparently stupid as a post, because if you were not, you would have enough sense to not have a fit about my doing what you are also doing! Bottom line: if you, or anyone else, wants to take this thread to vortexb-l, all you have to do is post your reply there. --MJ}*** Or are you on a pseudo religious MISSION to convert us >heathens to your paranoid way of thinking? ***{Nope. If you will check the old posts, you will discover that I focus on the subject of religion only if the topic is introduced by someone else. For example, when I made my comments about the religious nut who shoved her children in front of a subway train, it was in response to a tale posted by a fellow who was trying to prove that Jesus Christ appeared and comforted a little girl while her atheistic parents were murdering one another. Why did I do that? Simple: I have just as much right to analyze events from a rationalist perspective as others have to analyze them from an irrationalist perspective. While I realize that irrationalists are used to being free to spout their drivel without opposition, I personally don't give a hoot in hell what they are used to. --MJ}*** While at the same time you >ridicule anyone who you perceive to be trying to "force" their way of >thinking on you. Let anyone even mention GOD, and you go into a frothing >lather of contempt & ridicule. ***{Horse manure. I do nothing of the sort. Even when pejoratives are introduced into a discussion by others, thereby justifying me in returning fire, I am careful to always show more restraint than the person who fired the first shot. --MJ}*** Yet you go on & on & on about your own >sacred dogma. Does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? ***{That's a laugh, coming from a man who has a fit when another person does what he does! --MJ}*** > >How many people have left this list in disgust? ***{If irrationalists leave this list because they can't handle the diversity of perspectives, I'll not lose any sleep over it. --MJ}*** How many other lists are >you corrupting? ***{None, including this one--unlike you. --MJ}*** How many world saving discoveries have gone unfound >because someone didn't see the piece of information they needed to get that >great idea, because they left a list because of you? ***{If you will run the numbers, you will find that most great inventors are rationalists, not irrationalists. Thomas Edison, for example, was an out-and-out atheist. --MJ}*** How much damage have >you done to the world? ***{None. I am just a guy who says things that evil men don't like to hear. --MJ}*** > >Get a life, get some help, or just get lost! ***{I think you can guess the bodily orifice into which you may insert that advice. --MJ}*** > >I'm probably going to regret sending this, but you have an absolute talent >for pissing people off. ***{Unreasonable people are irritated by behavior that is reasonable, while reasonable people are irritated by behavior that is unreasonable. Since your first impulse is guaranteed to be wrong, I'll give you two guesses as to which category applies to you. --MJ}*** > >Maybe I should just go home and do something more agreeable then having to >wade through your 'delete before reading' invective, like cleaning my cats >litter box. ;^) ***{I can live with that. --MJ}*** > >Bill >webriggs concentric.net >briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 20:11:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24789; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:10:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:10:28 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Santilli Commercializes Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:20:44 -0500 Message-ID: <20000113042044843.AAA224 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"4D_IM1.0.F36.q0LVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, I just got this from their webmaster. Check it out. http://home1.gte.net/ibr/ Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 20:48:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA01477; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:47:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:47:30 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Anomalous Images Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:57:46 -0500 Message-ID: <20000113045746234.AAA232 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"xN9bL3.0.xM.XZLVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle writes: >Motion is not discontinuous to much less than at least .005x10^-6 seconds. >I know this from personal experience using an analog phosphor type 100Mhz >oscilloscope. The time for a trace to occur from one end of the >oscilloscope to the other end is frequently far smaller than 1/70000th of a >second. If there were discontinuity, it would be observed in the way the >electron beam excited the phosphor screen of the oscilloscope. Nothing of >this nature is found. The trace is not chopped into tiny segments on the >screen every 1/70000th of a second. > >--Kyle R. Mcallister This is a good observation, and notabley it occurs in a rarified, nondisturbed atmosphere. Perhaps what it happening to recording of the bullets can be explained by a change in the index of refraction of the air due to the formation of shock waves. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 21:11:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07954; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:10:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:10:32 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Anomalous Images Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:20:50 -0500 Message-ID: <20000113052050093.AAA276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"eqf-c2.0.By1.7vLVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >This is a good observation, and notabley it occurs in a rarified, >nondisturbed atmosphere. Perhaps what it happening to recording of the >bullets can be explained by a change in the index of refraction of the air >due to the formation of shock waves. A possible approach to testing this is to do the experiment again using Schlieren Photography as well. This might show the pressure effects on the air during the alleged lapses of being. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 22:27:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04237; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:24:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:24:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009201bf5d97$159cb6a0$9e8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "IronEagle" Cc: Subject: Re: Wood-Fired Photovoltaic-Thermoelectric Co-Gen System Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:22:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"d-Onv1.0.221.B-MVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The long duration runs of the Pioneer and Voyager Space Probes, gives a good indication of the durability of the ~12% efficiency of Thermoelectric Power converters. The recent DoE news on a ~ 42% conversion effiency of Photovoltaic Power Converters backed by Thermoelectrics, holds promise for using a small blower to burn wood or other biomass to produce electrical power, hot water, and space heat, off a compact system. All you need is a quartz tube burner section running at about 1500 deg Kelvin, some low pressure plumbing and a wood or manure pile. (and a shovel) :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 22:43:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA25082; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:42:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:42:27 -0800 Message-ID: <387D72EF.7B18 ca-ois.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:38:39 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v-KSr3.0.q76.IFNVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >Mitchell, > > > >Yes, occasional short term "Off Topic" discussions do occur on this list. > > > >They quickly die off, and usually start in relation to a specific > >related scientific interest. > > > >Your "Off Topic" subjects don't quickly die off, or are related to some > >scientific discussion. You actually only have one topic, that you keep > >bringing up under different headings. Or you have infected someone else's > >legitement topic with you own ongoing topic. > > > >The current reincarnation of this on-going topic is this "Evil" theme. > > ***{On vortex-l, we discuss issues related to anomalous science. That means > we discuss results that do not seem to fit the generally accepted > scientific paradigm, and the generalized context in which those results > arise. That generalized context very specifically includes discussions of > the hostility with which investigators of anomalous results have been > confronted by members of the orthodox scientific community. Because of the > nature of these results and of the reactions which they evoke, diverse > analytical perspectives have been encouraged in this group, and many > members have commented, both on the results and on the generalized context > in which they occur, based on analytical perspectives that differ from the > one espoused by mainstream science. Jim Ostrowski's attempt to analyze the > "Shroud of Turin" from his particular religious perspective is an example. > Nobody complained about his perspective, because diverse perspectives are > allowed here. Incorrect, I did get one complaint, which I think was resolved after my rejoinder, - a minor and barely significant detail. And, obviously, he was *on topic*, because if the image on > the shroud were the actual image of Jesus Christ, placed there by some > bizarre contact process, that would be about as anomalous as anything ever > gets. By the same token, my attempt to explain the treatment handed out to > scientific heretics in terms of my concept of evil is on topic here, > because anomalous science and scientific heresy go hand in hand, and my > analytical perspective, while different from the norm, is as acceptable > here as anyone else's. There are no limits in this group, concerning the > perspective from which a topic is analyzed, because, obviously, if a > scientific result really *is* anomalous, it is of necessity going to > require an unorthodox perspective for its explanation. --MJ}*** Right on, Mitchell. From your unorthodox analytical perpective, rooted in what you call "The Principle of Continuity" Please explain the photographic images at: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html and: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html If you would rather not, because from your analytical perspective, Gordon Smith's ideas are "silly", then you opt to retain your perspective in the face of evidence that it may be a delusional one. How sad for you. > > > >By the rules of this list, and to use your terminology, YOU are a source of > >Evil. While others may get involved in "Off Topic" discussions to a lesser > >level of Evil, you use this as an excuse to perpetuate a greater level of > >Evil upon us. > > ***{Rubbish. You just don't like my perspective, that's all. Why not at > least be honest enough to say what you really mean? --MJ }*** Even if neither of us LIKE your perspective, I think Bill and I would respect it a lot more were you willing to put it to any kind of rational test. Since you can't or won't, then don't blame us if we conclude that it isn't worthy of much respect. Speaking for myself, I can't very well LIKE something I can't respect. > > > >Or to paraphrase your own statement: > > > >> the "normal and routine" tendency of YOU to employ selective thinking > >> to believe what YOU want to believe is the cause of this unnecessary > >> suffering that YOU inflict on YOUR fellow list members. > > ***{Who appointed you to speak for others? I'll second.- JO >If you are "suffering" as a > result of reading my messages, then don't read them. See how simple that > was? When I see someone suffering, I try to help them. If that means coming down on the perpetrator of such suffering in a LOUD PUBLIC WAY- so be it. I think Bill thought I was suffering so he wanted to help me out. I appreciate it, Bill. > > But, of course, that doesn't satisfy you, now does it? And why not? The > answer, obviously, is that you can't stand the thought that *others* might > be reading my comments. Mitchell reads thoughts. (!) .... For an advocate of thought control, this is an indispensable ability. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > >Ever since I joined this list many people have attempted to get you to lay > >off the politics. At one point a separate list was created for "Off Topic" > >discussions, primarily I think because of YOU. > > > >BUT YOU CAN'T SEEM TO TAKE A HINT!!! > > > >Are you dense? > > ***{If I think a message relates directly to anomalous science, I post it > on vortex-l. If I think that connection is tenuous or absent, I post it to > vortexb-l. But I am easy to work with: if a respondent to one of my posts > places his reply on vortexb-l, or sends it via private e-mail, then I > divert my reply to vortexb-l, or to private e-mail, as the case may be. > Thus when Jim O. took the generalized "Evil" thread to vortexb-l, I > followed. But since I had something to say directly about the motivations > of those who persecute scienfific heretics, I posted those comments on > vortex-l. Since then, the latter thread has continued on vortex-l for one > reason only: because all of those who responded to it placed their replies > on vortex-l. While two of those respondents (you and Ed Storms) have > alleged that the thread was off topic, neither of you have diverted your > responses to vortexb-l, despite the fact that both of you apparently > believe it should go there. Nevertheless, despite the fact that you are > responding on vortex-l to posts made on vortex-l, here you are, ranting and > raving at me for doing exactly the same thing! In response to your asking > me if I am dense, therefore, here is my answer: no, but you are apparently > stupid as a post, because if you were not, you would have enough sense to > not have a fit about my doing what you are also doing! Bottom line: if you, > or anyone else, wants to take this thread to vortexb-l, all you have to do > is post your reply there. --MJ}*** Whether or not the topic was relevant to vortex-L was the debated issue, therefore moving it to vortexb prior to giving it a fair chance was just Bill being considerate of your possibly reasonable interests in having it here. It's still not resolved in your favor, Mitchell, but perhaps not in ours, either. What relevance does "evil" have to any of the current science topics being discussed on Vortex-L? > > Or are you on a pseudo religious MISSION to convert us > >heathens to your paranoid way of thinking? > > ***{Nope. If you will check the old posts, you will discover that I focus > on the subject of religion only if the topic is introduced by someone else. > For example, when I made my comments about the religious nut who shoved her > children in front of a subway train, it was in response to a tale posted by > a fellow who was trying to prove that Jesus Christ appeared and comforted a > little girl while her atheistic parents were murdering one another. Why did > I do that? Simple: I have just as much right to analyze events from a > rationalist perspective as others have to analyze them from an > irrationalist perspective. While I realize that irrationalists are used to > being free to spout their drivel without opposition, I personally don't > give a hoot in hell what they are used to. --MJ}*** That discussion eventually led to the Shroud of Turin thread, which you dropped out of when it became focused on science facts. Some good came of your decisions, I suppose. > > While at the same time you > >ridicule anyone who you perceive to be trying to "force" their way of > >thinking on you. Let anyone even mention GOD, and you go into a frothing > >lather of contempt & ridicule. > > ***{Horse manure. I do nothing of the sort. Even when pejoratives are > introduced into a discussion by others, thereby justifying me in returning > fire, I am careful to always show more restraint than the person who fired > the first shot. --MJ}*** Hypocrite. (bang!) Restrain that. > > Yet you go on & on & on about your own > >sacred dogma. Does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? > > ***{That's a laugh, coming from a man who has a fit when another person > does what he does! --MJ}*** Yeah, I remember doing exactly doing what I accused you of doing when I demanded that you stop badgering me to give you free information out my latest book "Cows Can Fly", which would have otherwise cost you $19.95. > > > >How many people have left this list in disgust? > > ***{If irrationalists leave this list because they can't handle the > diversity of perspectives, I'll not lose any sleep over it. --MJ}*** Sleep well. > > How many other lists are > >you corrupting? > > ***{None, including this one--unlike you. --MJ}*** > > How many world saving discoveries have gone unfound > >because someone didn't see the piece of information they needed to get that > >great idea, because they left a list because of you? > > ***{If you will run the numbers, you will find that most great inventors > are rationalists, not irrationalists. Thomas Edison, for example, was an > out-and-out atheist. --MJ}*** Atheists = rationalists Theists = irrationalists. Interesting equations. What was Tesla, anybody know? I heard he believed a Machine was God or something like that. > > How much damage have > >you done to the world? > > ***{None. I am just a guy who says things that evil men don't like to hear. > --MJ}*** > I can't decide whether I'm good or evil. Oh, yes Evil, I have thought selectively and not confessed. Mitchell, do I confess my selective thinking to you or your inquisitor, Torqemada? > > > >Get a life, get some help, or just get lost! > > ***{I think you can guess the bodily orifice into which you may insert that > advice. --MJ}*** Yes and I can see we are heading for the cesspool. I'll stay out of this one thanks. > > > >I'm probably going to regret sending this, but you have an absolute talent > >for pissing people off. > > ***{Unreasonable people are irritated by behavior that is reasonable, while > reasonable people are irritated by behavior that is unreasonable. Since > your first impulse is guaranteed to be wrong, I'll give you two guesses as > to which category applies to you. --MJ}*** I only need one guess to figure out who you think is reasonable and who you think is unreasonable. > >Maybe I should just go home and do something more agreeable then having to > >wade through your 'delete before reading' invective, like cleaning my cats > >litter box. ;^) Hey what kinda cat you got? I have a long hair tortoise shell female named "Snoopy", 15 yrs old. She faced off with a rattler once, she was lucky I saved her little life with my shotgun. > > ***{I can live with that. --MJ}*** Got any pets, Mitchell? Dogs, right? Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 00:44:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA28959; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:43:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:43:39 -0800 Message-ID: <387D8F61.28D5 ca-ois.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:40:01 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Relevance of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cH9Rm1.0.M47.w0PVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I said: Whether or not the topic was relevant to vortex-L was the debated issue, therefore moving it to vortexb prior to giving it a fair chance was just Bill being considerate of your possibly reasonable interests in having it here. I meant: Whether or not the topic was relevant to vortex-L was the debated issue, therefore NOT moving it to vortexb prior to giving it a fair chance was just Bill being considerate of your possibly reasonable interests in having it here. JO From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 06:03:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30205; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 06:00:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 06:00:57 -0800 Message-ID: <00a301bf5dd6$e69a0020$9e8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:00:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF5D93.CFD9DB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8ieWB3.0.sN7.OgTVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF5D93.CFD9DB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps some reflective aluminum paint on the outside of the beaker? http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/courseware/vrml/bb/BBintro.html Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF5D93.CFD9DB00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Blackbody Radiation.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Blackbody Radiation.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/courseware/vrml/bb/BBintro.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/courseware/vrml/bb/BBintro.html Modified=A0475E92D65DBF01CA ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF5D93.CFD9DB00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 06:42:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08805; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 06:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 06:40:06 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:39:57 +0100 (MET) From: David Jonsson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Help build physics reference on web In-Reply-To: <386EB71A.1EC2 ca-ois.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MHBUg3.0.V92.6FUVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eric Wesstein has done a great contribution to put information in physics on the net, see http://www.treasure-troves.com/physics/ There are areas that are under construction and anyone could contribute, see http://www.treasure-troves.com/physics/blank-entries.html I suppose there is a lot of qualification on this list who could contribute. Areas under construction are among others: Sagnac Interferometer (highly controversial. Equivalent (at least almost) to optical gyroscope which is a commercial product.) Casimir forces and effects, closely related to ZPE. Maybe Puthoff or someone should settle this are before some ordinary quantum physcisits does. Meissner effect. Someone who does this area should include a reference to Podkletnov. More superconductivity areas are listed. All contributions are reviewed which is very good. David David Jonsson US Fax +1 (305) 946-7851 Stockholm Phone +46-706-339487 E-mail David Bahnhof.se Sweden http://www.bahnhof.se/~david Postgiro 499 40 54-7 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 07:06:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20823; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:05:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:05:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000113090133.00dd40dc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:01:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: relevance in general Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lnEDU1.0.H55.ccUVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My ideal for Vortex-l: I would like to see Vortexans behave more like members of the audience at a scientific conference. Before you stand up and take the microphone (i.e. post a message), consider whether your question or opinion will be of interest to most of the audience. If not, then stay seated (don't post). Further, refrain from bringing up subjective topics such as the human motivations behind unfair evaluations of new science, etc. The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the science itself. For the duration of the meeting we're all going to try to give fair evaluations and discussion of every scientific idea presented. While we're in the meeting it will be functionally advantageous to pretend that scientific bigotry doesn't exist. Our goal is to shut up the bigots forever by producing real scientific advances. Folks that want to talk politics or human nature should excuse themselves into the hall and discuss those matters outside the meeting room. Finally, please recognize that many of the members of this cybermeeting are working scientists with active projects of their own. When somebody takes the floor, they better have something subtantial to say. It should not be unusual for a whole day go by with only 3 or 4 messages on Vortex. On such days, more progress will be made at each participating laboratory. If it turns out that most of the talk is insubstantial, the working scientists will eventually leave the meeting so they can get their work done in peace. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 07:17:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25031; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:15:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:15:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000113091132.01df61c4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:11:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <20000113022931484.AAA80 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8Wyb73.0.y66.xlUVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:29 PM 1/12/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >Perhaps petitioning the school's >administrators by both you and Dr. Mizuno to assign more computer science >students to the task of setting up and facilitating the exchange of visual >and sound data would be a better course of action. This would be really great but I get the impression from Jed that the school would rather not make M's research high profile, at least not now. >Computer science students need this kind of real world, hands-on kind of >experience anyway, so I would think that, properly presented, the school's >administration would likely be positive to the idea. Basically, this is a great idea. With some expert help, labs could put their computerized experiments online so everybody could watch as the experiment progresses. >Your documentation of your experiments both in text and with >photographs provide an excellent model to the educational world that is >quite commendable, and yet still has the potential to evolve into an even >more effective way to do science and education. Thank you very much. >I don't know how much of the nuts and bolts of the web publishing you are >actually doing yourself... every bit of it. >but even your own backers might see the sense in >providing you with some additional help or training in this area. I'm on a dial-up connection to the Internet right now. If I had a permanent connection, I could at least set up a web cam and maybe even have live experimental data. Thanks again, Knuke. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 07:52:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08147; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:51:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 07:51:06 -0800 Message-ID: <002c01bf5ddd$f9488be0$92637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000113090133.00dd40dc mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: relevance in general Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:50:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"4iW0B3.0.D_1.gHVVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Further, refrain from bringing up subjective topics such as the human > motivations behind unfair evaluations of new science, etc. The purpose of > this meeting is to discuss the science itself. For the duration of the > meeting we're all going to try to give fair evaluations and discussion of > every scientific idea presented. While we're in the meeting it will be > functionally advantageous to pretend that scientific bigotry doesn't exist. > Our goal is to shut up the bigots forever by producing real scientific > advances. I certainly endorse the last sentence. However, no kind of thinking is indefinately isolated from the rest of thinking, and we have to have some tolerance for minor ranting. Even scientists have senses of humor and emotional reactions to events like horse manure being stuffed in one's mailbox. The list does have a basic purpose, and it should be respected and not used as a soap box by anyone. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 08:20:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04253; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:18:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:18:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000113090133.00dd40dc mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:14:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: relevance in general Resent-Message-ID: <"e_L1K2.0.L21.DhVVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >My ideal for Vortex-l: > >I would like to see Vortexans behave more like members of the audience at a >scientific conference. Before you stand up and take the microphone (i.e. >post a message), consider whether your question or opinion will be of >interest to most of the audience. If not, then stay seated (don't post). ***{Audiences self-select. That means if the posts are limited to, say, abstruse mathematical calculations, then everybody will drop out except those who are interested in wading through the math. And if the posts are limited to comments about specific experimental results, a similar winnowing process will take place. As it stands right now, however, vortex projects an image of diversity, and, despite the carping of a few people who "suffer" when perspectives other than their own are discussed, I'll lay long odds that the audience is large, diverse in terms of opinions, interests, and knowledge, and that it is also, by and large, highly tolerent of dissent. In my opinion, that is exactly the kind of mix we need, if we are going to ever get to the bottom of this "excess energy" stuff. --MJ}*** > >Further, refrain from bringing up subjective topics such as the human >motivations behind unfair evaluations of new science, etc. The purpose of >this meeting is to discuss the science itself. ***{The science in question is *anomalous*--which means: it doesn't seem to be explicable within the generally accepted paradigm. That means, in all likelihood, that we are going to need creative input from outside the mainstream, if we are to get a handle on it. To maximize our chances, we need a large and intellectually diverse audience, not a small, inbred group of narrowly focused people which may not contain anyone with the required analytical tools to solve this conundrum. --MJ}*** For the duration of the >meeting we're all going to try to give fair evaluations and discussion of >every scientific idea presented. While we're in the meeting it will be >functionally advantageous to pretend that scientific bigotry doesn't exist. > Our goal is to shut up the bigots forever by producing real scientific >advances. > >Folks that want to talk politics or human nature should excuse themselves >into the hall and discuss those matters outside the meeting room. ***{Discussion of what motivates those who abuse scientific heretics is, itself, motivating: the more clear it becomes that most of the criticism of this field arises due to unseemly motives, the larger the number of reasoning people who will become interested in it. And the larger the group of people who are applying reason to these problems, the sooner we will reach the critical mass that is necessary to solve them. Thus complementarity exists between discussions of the unseemly motives of those who abuse "new energy" researchers, and the goal of "shutting up the critics forever by producing real scientific advances." Moreover, many other discussions of related matters have the same effect. For example, recognition of the implications of this research is intensely motivating. Many people who see their rights being taken away by the emerging globalist dictatorship are thoroughly frustrated by the failure of efforts to "work within the system," and are seeking approaches which will enable them to achieve freedom on their own. Many of these people are exceptionally bright, scientifically knowledgeable, and highly creative. Thus to the extent that it becomes clear that the success of this research will restore the frontier, and, thus, permit such people to be free by simply living out of sight and out of mind of those unwilling to live and let live, an even larger audience will be attracted to this area of research. In my view, this is all to the good. We need a large and diverse mass of people pushing against these obstacles, in order to overcome them. Hence any policy that discourages the interest of reasoning minds or reduces diversity is a prescription for failure. --MJ}*** > >Finally, please recognize that many of the members of this cybermeeting are >working scientists with active projects of their own. When somebody takes >the floor, they better have something subtantial to say. It should not be >unusual for a whole day go by with only 3 or 4 messages on Vortex. ***{That would be a disaster. Virtually the entire audience that is presently focused here would simply go away, if this group offered nothing more than 3 or 4 posts a day commenting on technical points about ongoing experiments. As things presently stand, we have the diversity we need so that you can get feedback from an unpaid technical staff, to assist you in your scientific projects, and at the same time others, who are less technically up to speed than you, can get their more mundane questions answered. Result: with the passage of time, more and more people will feel competent enough, and motivated enough, to begin experimenting themselves. And every time that happens, we move one step closer to the goal of having enough minds focused on these problems to permit them to be solved. I would suggest, therefore, that you need to simply narrow your focus a bit. You don't have to read every thread. If you aren't interested in the political implications of this research or in the underlying motivations of those who oppose it, then simply refrain from reading threads that focus on such matters. You can get what you need out of this group without preventing others from getting what they need, and without killing off the attractive force that is broadening interest in new energy research. --MJ}*** On such >days, more progress will be made at each participating laboratory. If it >turns out that most of the talk is insubstantial, the working scientists >will eventually leave the meeting so they can get their work done in peace. ***{I think most working scientists, including a very knowledgeable, conscientious, and productive fellow by the name of Scott Little, are smart enough to focus on the threads that interest them, and skip over those that do not. --MJ}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 08:29:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24960; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:26:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:26:17 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <387B70D8.3B87 ca-ois.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:26:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: quantum jump Resent-Message-ID: <"RI_-52.0.w56.foVVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MItchel Jones wrote; >***{I have no interest in ferreting out the error which led to that silly >conclusion, for two reasons: (a) as noted above, the principle of >continuity is foundational to the entire structure of human knowledge, and, >as such, is not subject to refutation by experiment; This sounds to me like "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up." This is just what I would expect from an athiest. The whole idea behind a God created universe is the belief that physical objects can spring into existance. This is possible because God is outside of this universe. My favorite explanation for the spontaneous appearance or disapperances is the hyperdimentional model, which says that physical objects can vanish from one dimention by changing their vibrational rate. However I will be the first to admit that I don't understand that explanation nor do I understand where God came from. I would like to thank the person who posted the page with Mr. Boisvert's theory on it. The one one photograph that showed the washer before and after it was struck by the bullet was very interesting. I would say that his theory is worth further study. Thomas Malloy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 08:30:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05725; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:28:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:28:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <387E0999.20A1434D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:21:29 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"kcTaI3.0.NP1.4rVVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: IMHO it's time to tell your backers to pony up a ticket for you [Scott] and your portable calorimeter to Japan. Jed Rothwell wrote: I agree ... Hi Scott, I have been following your Mizuno replication effort closely and have been fascinated by the ambiguities present even with well-intentioned, open cooperation. (Contrast with the BLP secrecy.) Because of the opem exchange of this effort, it may be a turning point in CF research: If you do not verify Mizuno's results, CF research could be discredited. In the past, you have mentioned that you have access to resources for CF research. At this critical time, a very worthwhile expenditure of some of these resources would be to pay Mizuno to come to your lab with his equipment and assistants so that you can work shoulder-to-shoulder. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 08:47:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01090; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:46:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:46:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:46:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <387E0999.20A1434D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hCP7Q1.0.yG.e5WVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Because of the open exchange of this effort, it >may be a turning point in CF research: If you do not verify >Mizuno's results, CF research could be discredited. With all due respect, there has been plenty of cooperation in CF research, and Scott Little is not an important player in this field. He is not an electrochemist, he has no prior experience in this kind of research, and as far as I know he has never published a peer-reviewed paper in chemistry or electrochemistry. Nothing he can do will detract from the work of people like Mizuno, Ohmori, Zhao, Kitaichi or Enyo. The turning point in CF came in 1990 with the publication of excess heat replications and tritium evidence by McKubre, Storms, Bockris, Will, Mizuno, Srinivasan and many others. That proved beyond any doubt that CF is real. It proved it once and for all times. CF is a fact of nature, and nothing that any human can say or do will ever discredit or undo that fact. Even if the skeptics succeed in burying the field, and all is forgotten 50 years from now, it will always remain an immutable fact of nature that nuclear reactions can occur in metal lattices. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 09:06:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12205; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:04:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:04:52 -0800 Message-ID: <004201bf5df0$98f090e0$9b441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000113090133.00dd40dc mail.eden.com> <002c01bf5ddd$f9488be0$92637dc7@computer> Subject: Re: relevance in general Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:03:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"R5w9o2.0.Z-2.qMWVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Wall To: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 7:50 AM Subject: Re: relevance in general Ed Wall wrote: > However, no kind of thinking is > indefinately isolated from the rest of thinking, and we have to have some > tolerance for minor ranting. > Even scientists have senses of humor and > emotional reactions to events like horse manure being stuffed in one's > mailbox. Gee Ed, are you saying that the U.S. Postal Service is going back to using the Pony Express? Regards, Frederick > > Edward Wall > New Energy Research Laboratory > Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 > (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 > ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 09:17:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16376; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:15:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:15:06 -0800 Message-ID: <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com><3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:13:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8vMGc2.0.o_3.QWWVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Jed wrote: > > With all due respect, there has been plenty of cooperation in CF research, > and Scott Little is not an important player in this field. He is not an > electrochemist, he has no prior experience in this kind of research, and as > far as I know he has never published a peer-reviewed paper in chemistry or > electrochemistry. > Hold the phone, Jed, go to www.eden.com/~little/new.htm and look at the track record. Regards, Frederick > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 10:09:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04911; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:07:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:07:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000113130707.007c4ca0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:07:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000113091132.01df61c4 mail.eden.com> References: <20000113022931484.AAA80 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ozUzt.0.eC1.OHXVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: Jed, Regarding the idea of visiting Mizuno, you must have a pretty good idea what I'd be up against. Mainly the language barrier. Plus he has 30 years more experience with electrochemistry and he studied under Enyo and Bockris, who is a slave driver, so he knows lots more about what is happening on the surface of a cathode then you can imagine. First, it would be a wonderful event if my calorimeter confirmed Mizuno's excess heat readings...no question about that. Well, it would be very pleasing for him and for me, and wonderful for you. I am more thrilled to hear that Zhao replicated. But let's consider what would happen if it didn't, that is if M's cell showed a 1.00 power balance in my calorimeter. Let's further assume that I had also demonstrated to M that my calorimeter reads zero when it's supposed to and reads a 1.00 power balance on a calibration resistor cell. Let's further assume that we had already tried several cathodes and that none of them showed excess heat in my calorimeter. I do not see much point to thinking about such a long chain of hypothetical speculation. Let's not worry about unlikely events unless they happen. I trust the two of you have enough technical savvy to avoid this kind of conundrum, which is usually caused by sloppiness. Someone overlooks something obvious for a few days, like a screwy thermocouple. Eventually you find the problem and things get back to normal. It can take a few days, maybe a week. A couple of weeks ago, Ed Storms with having some problems with his dual calorimeter. He is a talented and fast worker, yet it took him several days to figure out that contamination in the flow was causing spurious numbers in the isoperibolic mode (the inner calorimeter). Frankly, these dual mode calorimeters seem a little too complicated to me. Twice as many things to go wrong. We could even further assume that M had subsequently taken one or two of these cathodes and tried them in his setup and they still showed excess heat there. How do you think M would react to that? He would take it in stride, I'm sure. He is a kind of person who devotes eight months to building one calorimeter. He would find the source of the discrepancy eventually, if anyone can. At that point, I guess it would be up to me to pinpoint the source of his error(s). What makes you so sure it would be his error? That's presumptuous of you. Your calorimeter is lot more complicated than his, so I would look at yours first. Furthermore, don't kid yourself about this: you know wa-a-a-y less about calorimetry that Mizuno, Ohmori and Zhao know. They have written textbooks about that kind of thing. Some of the papers by Mizuno and his graduate students are so far over my head I cannot tell you what they're about. I realize you know more chemistry that I do, but I have seen your papers & presentations and the level of calorimetry and electrochemistry you understand, and I am quite sure that if you could magically overcome the language barrier and take a two-year MS course in electrochemistry at Hokkaido University under Mizuno, you would learn so much your head would spin. Of course I admit it is possible Mizuno and his colleagues at Hokkaido and the K.R.I. have made three different kinds of errors, using three different types of calorimeter (isoperibolic, heat release and flow). I will not be fully convinced this effect is real until they have been replicated independently by different labs. But I think it is unlikely that an amateur from outside of their academic field of expertise could march into their labs and find a simple, obvious error in the calorimetry. (I suppose it would have to be a simple, obvious error, or else it would not cause such large artifacts.) There are many boobs and fools in academic science, but generally, when it comes to doing the workaday tasks of their profession, they get it right. Take Richard Blue, a retired physicist from a national lab. He knows zip about cold fusion, he will not read the papers, and when he speculates about them he makes silly mistakes such as confusing power and energy. Yet, he was a working professional scientist. Based on my experience with other professionals, including stupid ones, I expect he performed the ordinary tasks in his own field of nuclear physics correctly. If he had screwed up, I suppose he would've irradiated someone and he would've been fired. (I do not know if his job brought him near a reactor, but anyway, something would have gone haywire.) I would be surprised if an amateur could catch Blue making a silly mistake in his own lab, doing the things he was trained to do. It is only when he steps outside of his field of expertise and begins pontificating about subjects he has not studied that he makes obvious mistakes. I used to administer tests in computer programming for job interviews. The questions were straight out of elementary textbooks -- easy-peasy. I met many full-time programmers who seemed so dumb, and so ignorant of the textbook fundamentals, you would not think they could code their way out of a paper bag, yet I know they managed to do their jobs. People like that caused the Y2K problem. But when it came to the workaday tasks they did to keep their jobs, they were remarkably competent. Otherwise we could go on forever suspecting that some bizarre influence of my calorimeter was somehow suppressing the positive effect that he sees with his calorimetry. It need not be particularly bizarre, or unusual. As I have often said, the calorimeter plays an active role in the experiment. It is known to exert influence on the outcome, sometimes for prosaic reasons, such as suppressing positive feedback from temperature increases. Anyway, as I said there is no point speculating about unlikely future events. Knuke suggested: Perhaps petitioning the school's administrators by both you and Dr. Mizuno to assign more computer science students to the task of setting up and facilitating the exchange of visual and sound data would be a better course of action. This would be a piece of cake on Mizuno's end. The Hokkaido campus was recently wired with a new high-speed network and fast Internet connections. However, I'm not impressed with the quality of Internet video connections I have seen, even at high speed. I think we have exhausted long distance diagnostics. Probably, the only way to get to the bottom of this discrepancy in results would be for Little to visit Mizuno, or vice versa. In truth, even that step may fail. You might spend a frustrating week there and still not get to the bottom of the problem. But it's worth a shot. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 10:15:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08975; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:13:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> References: <387E0999.20A1434D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:10:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"3WdLD1.0.9C2.ZNXVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Taylor J. Smith wrote: > >>Because of the open exchange of this effort, it >>may be a turning point in CF research: If you do not verify >>Mizuno's results, CF research could be discredited. > >With all due respect, there has been plenty of cooperation in CF research, >and Scott Little is not an important player in this field. He is not an >electrochemist, he has no prior experience in this kind of research, and as >far as I know he has never published a peer-reviewed paper in chemistry or >electrochemistry. Nothing he can do will detract from the work of people >like Mizuno, Ohmori, Zhao, Kitaichi or Enyo ***{In my view, a non-replication by an intelligent, knowledgeable, dedicated experimenter who displays his work openly on the web and seeks feedback from anyone who might have insight, would be *very* important. If Scott fails despite persistent efforts to elicit from you, Mizuno, Ohmori, and everyone else on the planet, information that can help him replicate Mizuno's results, then I think reasonable observers will take that outcome very seriously. My view of this situation, for example, is this: I want to narrow my focus to the area that is most likely to result in success. To that end, if Scott stays the course and does everything that any of us can reasonably expect and perhaps a little more, and fails, then I will turn my attention to areas of "over unity" research that look more promising. None of us have unlimited resources, Jed. Everybody works within a limited budget, with respect to both money and time, and so we must adjust our priorities as new facts emerge. --MJ}*** > >The turning point in CF came in 1990 with the publication of excess heat >replications and tritium evidence by McKubre, Storms, Bockris, Will, >Mizuno, Srinivasan and many others. That proved beyond any doubt that CF is >real. It proved it once and for all times. CF is a fact of nature, and >nothing that any human can say or do will ever discredit or undo that fact. >Even if the skeptics succeed in burying the field, and all is forgotten 50 >years from now, it will always remain an immutable fact of nature that >nuclear reactions can occur in metal lattices. ***{Nobody on this planet wants that to be true more than I do, but all I see thus far are tantalizing hints, not proof. In the specific case of Mizuno, I continue to suspect that he is undermeasuring power-in due to the presence of unmetered spikes, and nothing that I have seen thus far has addressed that issue in any definitive way. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 10:58:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30038; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:56:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:56:37 -0800 Message-ID: <387E1EAB.17C ca-ois.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:51:23 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Continuity vs. Discontinuity -was Re: The Relevance of Evil] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"QDlzI3.0.hK7.Z_XVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Message-ID: <387E1E45.D7B ca-ois.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:49:41 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l eskimo.com Subject: Continuity vs. Discontinuity -was Re: The Relevance of Evil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > >Right on, Mitchell. From your unorthodox analytical perpective, rooted > >in what you call "The Principle of Continuity" Please explain the > >photographic images at: > > > > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html > > > > and: > > > > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html > Mitchell Jones wrote: > As for your repeated demands for an experimental test of the > principle of continuity, the very idea is absurd: you can't use an > experiment to prove that the experiment itself may not have ever happened! > The only question is: why can't you get that through your thick skull? The point of the experiment was to find out if motion is discontinuous. The photographs resulting from the experiments show objects disappearing from one location and re-appearing in another one. Does your principle deny the possibility that the objects can actually "dissapear" into some unknown or little understood state of being (such as say "hyperspace") because it equates THAT state of being with the concept of "nothing"? Does "nothing" mean the same thing as the "state of non existence"? It is not alleged that the objects cease to exist by the theory used to explain the observed behaviour, anyway. This is because the spaces represented by the "Boisvert Gaps" do not take any time to traverse, according to the author's explanation. Therefore, there is no time available for the object to "NOT exist". Whether an "infinite velocity" implied by the explanation is "impossible", seems to be outside the scope of your principle. If you wanted to take issue with the idea that "infinite" velocities are possible, I could understand that, in fact Stenger already brought that up. We spent a good deal of time resolving that issue, and it is a very interesting and valid objection, on it's face. However, you seem to be saying the experimenter's explanation of the phenomna violates your principle, but that is simply false, as explained above, if one takes the word "nothing" used in this principle to mean the same thing as "the state of non existence". A "state" of being (or NOT being) must "endure" for a time T > 0 in order to be called a "state or "status". Therefore, from this reasoning, your principle does not apply. You however, appear to think that it does. How so? Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 11:22:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06633; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:21:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:21:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <387B70D8.3B87 ca-ois.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:17:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: quantum jump Resent-Message-ID: <"b8cWE3.0.Zd1.VMYVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >MItchel Jones wrote; > >>***{I have no interest in ferreting out the error which led to that silly >>conclusion, for two reasons: (a) as noted above, the principle of >>continuity is foundational to the entire structure of human knowledge, and, >>as such, is not subject to refutation by experiment; > > This sounds to me like "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is >made up." This is just what I would expect from an athiest. ***{The epistemological validity of scientific knowledge depends on principles that exist prior to and independently of science, such as the principle of induction and the principle of continuity (which is necessary to validate induction). Because such principles are part of the support structure of science, their validity is presupposed by all scientific endeavors, such as the practice of conducting experiments. No one, for example, would be interested in doing an experiment, if they did not expect that things would continue to behave as they have behaved in the past (induction). After all, what would be the point? If Mizuno got "over unity" results today by means an experiment, that would tell you nothing about what would happen if he did the same thing tomorrow. Therefore, since the significance of an experiment rests on the validity of the principle that things will continue to behave as they behaved in the past, it follows that there is no experiment whatsoever that could ever hope to verify that principle. You could run a thousand experiments, getting the same result every time, and that would still not prove, or even render it likely, that you would get that result if you did it again. In fact, the principle that things will behave as they have behaved in the past is a deductive consequence of the validity of the principle of continuity: it is only in a universe where no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing, that we can be sure the principle of induction holds. Therefore, since the principle of continuity is foundational to the principle on which science itself rests, no conceivable experiment could ever verify it or falsify it. To see why, in a very direct way, simply ask yourself how you could even know that the experiment took place at all, if the principle of continuity were false. Even if you were standing in the room watching the experiment, you couldn't know it was happening: for all you knew, the sensations you thought were coming from the experiment might just be leaping into existence out of nothing. Or, alternatively, your knowledge that the experiment was flawed might simply have vanished into nothing. --MJ}*** >behind a God created universe is the belief that physical objects can >spring into existance. This is possible because God is outside of this >universe. ***{The principle of continuity refutes any conception of "God" that gives him the power to create objects out of nothing or cause them to vanish into nothing. Since that's central to the concept of "God" with a capital G, it is crystal clear that such a being does not exist and never did exist. --MJ}*** > > My favorite explanation for the spontaneous appearance or >disapperances is the hyperdimentional model, which says that physical >objects can vanish from one dimention by changing their vibrational rate. >However I will be the first to admit that I don't understand that >explanation nor do I understand where God came from. ***{I do. He came out of the imaginations of primitive men, who employed such ideas in an attempt to explain natural phenomena, and to create mythic horrors (e.g., Hell) which they could use to control others. --MJ}*** > > I would like to thank the person who posted the page with Mr. >Boisvert's theory on it. The one one photograph that showed the washer >before and after it was struck by the bullet was very interesting. I would >say that his theory is worth further study. > > >Thomas Malloy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 12:18:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26635; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:15:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:15:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:15:14 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gQP-N.0.-V6.h9ZVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Hold the phone, Jed, go to www.eden.com/~little/new.htm and look at the >track record. Yes, I have seen it. Very impressive; much better than I myself can do. Now then, why don't *you* go have a look at the graduate theses written by people coming out of John Bockris's lab. Have a close look at the kind of electrochemistry they do, and the level of physics and chemistry they must master, and the intensity of their workload. Think about how Mizuno spent two years working day and night to sort out the precise physical mechanisms of ion absorption in metal surfaces, trying to determine whether chlorine is adsorbed or absorbed in iron during the first phases of pitting corrosion. That task is much harder than anything Scott Little has attempted, as far as I know. There is a world of difference between a talented, part-time amateur and a professional who has been put through the wringer for years by Bockris. Read the CF papers by Bockris, Minevski & Hodko and tell me if you think Scott Little would be capable of doing that work or writing those papers. Mizuno does not strike me as being a genius, or even being particularly brilliant. He is clever, stubborn, and he has guts. But anyone who can survive Bockris' lab without flunking out knows *far* more about chemistry, electrochemistry, and physics than Scott Little does. Getting an advanced degree does not make you smart, but it sure does make you knowledgeable! Naturally, if Scott put himself through a couple years with Bockris, he would know this stuff too. (Unfortunately, Bockris retired a few years ago, so this option is not open to Scott.) Scott is smart and he has a strong science background, so if he would be willing to knock himself out for a couple of years, he could survive it. He could probably become a medical doctor too, which is about as arduous. He could, but he hasn't done it yet, so he does not yet have the skills to challenge the real difficulties of CF. Long years of training do pay off. There is no substitute for experience. Competent professionals who have done a job for decades know how to do things easily in ways that would never occur to other people, even smart people. Farmers and construction workers manipulate heavy machinery and cope with dangers such as high winds on exposed steel girders fifty stories up. They think nothing of doing things which would kill an untrained person. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 12:42:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04829; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:38:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:38:22 -0800 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:37:47 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:19:58 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:16:29 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Continuity vs. Discontinuity In-reply-to: <387E1EAB.17C ca-ois.com> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:37:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2366ZYGZMBFZZ X400-MTS-identifier: [;74735131100002/4394471 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"6dreD.0.NB1.-UZVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim, Perhaps the universe is really just someone's pixel array, with variable pixel density depending on the characteristics of the object. Each object is allocated a certain number of pixels for it to operate in an observably continuous fashion. And we (or the collection of pixels that define us) are generally in synch with our surrounding objects so we can't perceive a transition. Much as we are viewing the motion of the characters on the screen in front of us, it is really a collection of dots on the screen with changing color within a fixed density array, refreshed at 60Hz or 70Hz depending on your monitor. We merely perceive it as continuous due to the limitations of our sensory & cognitive equipment. If however sudden dramatic changes occur, instead of allocating more pixels to an object, the UOS (Universal Operating System) just stretches the distance between pixels. Or to paraphrase Einstein, the faster it goes, the bigger it gets. Then it would be left up to our POS (Perceptual Operating System) to fill in the blanks. Again due to our limitations it just "appears" to be continuous. It is the purpose of the UOS to provide as nearly continuous appearing perception of the universe as possible to give it a sense of order. Perhaps this version or generation of the UOS has it's limitations. We are starting to be able to see between the cracks with our instrumentation, of this generated order. Because of that perhaps we are due for an upgrade pretty soon, maybe the director of this generated order has a beta version in testing in another universe. I'm sure that the upgrade to this second version is going to be rather traumatic to some people's world view, so perhaps the general order director has provided us with a promotional handbook. Maybe it was entitled "Before I Bring Latest Edition", or the abbreviated title of "Bible". You may want to read the section on the upgrade to version 2, or the "Second Coming". As written by the General Order Director, usually referred to as simply GOD. PS. Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;^) PPS. Maybe that's how it works anyways, think about it. Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com >The point of the experiment was to find out if motion is discontinuous. >The photographs resulting from the experiments show objects disappearing >from one location and re-appearing in another one. Does your principle >deny the possibility that the objects can actually "dissapear" into some >unknown or little understood state of being (such as say "hyperspace") >because it equates THAT state of being with the concept of "nothing"? >Does "nothing" mean the same thing as the "state of non existence"? >It is not alleged that the objects cease to exist by the theory used to >explain the observed behaviour, anyway. This is because the spaces >represented by the "Boisvert Gaps" do not take any time to traverse, >according to the author's explanation. Therefore, there is no time >available for the object to "NOT exist". Whether an "infinite velocity" >implied by the explanation is "impossible", seems to be outside the >scope of your principle. >If you wanted to take issue with the idea that "infinite" velocities are >possible, I could understand that, in fact Stenger already brought that >up. We spent a good deal of time resolving that issue, and it is a very >interesting and valid objection, on it's face. >However, you seem to be saying the experimenter's explanation of the >phenomna violates your principle, but that is simply false, as explained >above, if one takes the word "nothing" used in this principle to mean >the same thing as "the state of non existence". A "state" of being (or >NOT being) must "endure" for a time T > 0 in order to be called a >"state or "status". Therefore, from this reasoning, your principle does >not apply. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 13:06:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13099; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:00:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:00:23 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:01:13 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200001132101.OAA11683 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"wdVBe3.0.bC3.dpZVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:15 PM 1/13/00 -0500, you wrote: >Frederick Sparber wrote: > >>Hold the phone, Jed, go to www.eden.com/~little/new.htm and look at the >>track record. >There is a world of difference between a >talented, part-time amateur and a professional who has been put through the >wringer for years by Bockris. Read the CF papers by Bockris, Minevski & >Hodko and tell me if you think Scott Little would be capable of doing that >work or writing those papers. > >- Jed Come on Jed. That's a red herring and you know it. Nobody is claiming Scott has the training of Bokris or Mizuno. Nobody can be an expert in everything. If Mizuno and Scott get together, something interesting and informative is bound to happen. One of them is doing the experiment "wrong" or one of them is doing the calorimetry "wrong". And if they were in the same place working together for a while, I bet they could figure out which it is. Either way, learning the outcome would be one of the most interesting things ever to come out of this list IMNSHO. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 13:06:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14870; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:03:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:03:29 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:03:50 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: quantum jump In-reply-to: X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200001132103.OAA20081 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <387B70D8.3B87@ca-ois.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"LYcwt1.0.Ge3.XsZVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:17 PM 1/13/00 -0600, you wrote: >>MItchel Jones wrote; >***{The principle of continuity refutes any conception of "God" that gives >him the power to create objects out of nothing or cause them to vanish into >nothing. Since that's central to the concept of "God" with a capital G, it >is crystal clear that such a being does not exist and never did exist. >--MJ}*** Is that a God given "principle of continuity" you've got there Mitch? --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 14:07:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12422; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:02:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:02:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> References: <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:06:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"xEcUj2.0.h13.djaVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Frederick Sparber wrote: > >>Hold the phone, Jed, go to www.eden.com/~little/new.htm and look at the >>track record. > >Yes, I have seen it. Very impressive; much better than I myself can do. Now >then, why don't *you* go have a look at the graduate theses written by >people coming out of John Bockris's lab. Have a close look at the kind of >electrochemistry they do, and the level of physics and chemistry they must >master, and the intensity of their workload. Think about how Mizuno spent >two years working day and night to sort out the precise physical mechanisms >of ion absorption in metal surfaces, trying to determine whether chlorine >is adsorbed or absorbed in iron during the first phases of pitting >corrosion. That task is much harder than anything Scott Little has >attempted, as far as I know. There is a world of difference between a >talented, part-time amateur and a professional who has been put through the >wringer for years by Bockris. Read the CF papers by Bockris, Minevski & >Hodko and tell me if you think Scott Little would be capable of doing that >work or writing those papers. ***{Jed, your pejorative opinions about Scott Little's state of knowledge are irrelevant to the issue before us, and do not become relevant merely because you toss him a complement now and then. The fact of the matter is that thus far neither you, nor I, nor Mizuno, nor Ohmori, nor any of the various participants in this group have succeeded in identifying anything that Scott may be doing wrong. This is a fact, despite the presence of people on this list with heavy credentials in all the relevant fields. You cannot overcome the implications of that state of affairs by an attack on Scott's credentials. It is simply a fact that many creative, intelligent, and highly competent individuals cannot abide the sort of feudal tenure which you seem to think is a prerequisite for the acquisition of competence in a field, and so they are mostly self-taught. If Scott has chosen that road, his results must still be taken seriously, and dealt with substantively, and you do your cause no good when you suggest otherwise. (By your reasoning, I might add, the Wright brothers never flew, Thomas Edison never invented a damn thing, and Edwin Land failed utterly to advance the state of knowledge in the area of instant photography.) --MJ}*** > >Mizuno does not strike me as being a genius, or even being particularly >brilliant. He is clever, stubborn, and he has guts. But anyone who can >survive Bockris' lab without flunking out knows *far* more about chemistry, >electrochemistry, and physics than Scott Little does. ***{You do not have a thought probe planted in the brain of anyone who "survived Bockris' lab," including Mizuno, and you do not have one in Scott Little's brain, either. Therefore you have no way of knowing whether he, or Mizuno, have a better grasp of what is going on in this specific experiment. The only way to determine that will be for you, or Mizuno, or someone, to figure out what Scott is doing wrong--or, alternatively, for Scott to figure out what Mizuno is doing wrong. Until one of you succeeds in doing that, all of this talk about credentials is just empty blather, signifying nothing. --MJ}*** Getting an advanced >degree does not make you smart, but it sure does make you knowledgeable! >Naturally, if Scott put himself through a couple years with Bockris, he >would know this stuff too. (Unfortunately, Bockris retired a few years ago, >so this option is not open to Scott.) Scott is smart and he has a strong >science background, so if he would be willing to knock himself out for a >couple of years, he could survive it. He could probably become a medical >doctor too, which is about as arduous. He could, but he hasn't done it yet, >so he does not yet have the skills to challenge the real difficulties of CF. > >Long years of training do pay off. There is no substitute for experience. >Competent professionals who have done a job for decades know how to do >things easily in ways that would never occur to other people, even smart >people. Farmers and construction workers manipulate heavy machinery and >cope with dangers such as high winds on exposed steel girders fifty stories >up. They think nothing of doing things which would kill an untrained person. ***{All of which tells us *exactly diddley squat* about what Scott is doing wrong, or what Mizuno is doing wrong. Like it or not, when the dust settles, someone is going to have to do that, in order for one assessment of this experiment to prevail here rather than the other. If that doesn't happen, then we are all placed in the position of simply waiting to see how history unfolds. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 14:08:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05901; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:06:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:06:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:05:59 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VhwEp3.0.7S1.jnaVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed I feel Scott's major contribution here is the duplication of other peoples work in an engineeringly robust manner. So far, he has not found any system which can be duplicated in this manner, but the benefits are in the process of creating reliable calorimeter systems, the testing of these ideas in an open manner for all to see. Maybe some traditional scientists could learn something about accurate reproducible testing from him posts and web page. Hank On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > >Because of the open exchange of this effort, it > >may be a turning point in CF research: If you do not verify > >Mizuno's results, CF research could be discredited. > > With all due respect, there has been plenty of cooperation in CF research, > and Scott Little is not an important player in this field. He is not an > electrochemist, he has no prior experience in this kind of research, and as > far as I know he has never published a peer-reviewed paper in chemistry or > electrochemistry. Nothing he can do will detract from the work of people > like Mizuno, Ohmori, Zhao, Kitaichi or Enyo. > > The turning point in CF came in 1990 with the publication of excess heat > replications and tritium evidence by McKubre, Storms, Bockris, Will, > Mizuno, Srinivasan and many others. That proved beyond any doubt that CF is > real. It proved it once and for all times. CF is a fact of nature, and > nothing that any human can say or do will ever discredit or undo that fact. > Even if the skeptics succeed in burying the field, and all is forgotten 50 > years from now, it will always remain an immutable fact of nature that > nuclear reactions can occur in metal lattices. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 15:04:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25136; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:02:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:02:29 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:01:47 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: quantum jump In-Reply-To: <200001132103.OAA20081 smtp.asu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"38EBw3.0.g86.5cbVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In studying Solid State Physics, I have come to realize that most of our thinking in this Vortex-L group about using quantum mechanics needs some upgrading. In real material, the atomic theory and quantum mechanics are used in a continuous manner, not discretely. The charge density is the most useful way of thinking about materials, not thinking about electrons as little worlds traveling about in discrete separate orbits as in a solar system. The group I am working in here at CSUN is doing ab-initio calculations (so are lots of other places around the world), using quantum theory and Schroedingers equation to compute material properties from the atom up. We have a fantastic SGI computer system, 20 parallel processors, and can handle up to about 1000 atoms at a time in the calculations. I am just a first year graduate student here, but I have seen the results others are getting and it is quite impressive. One can start with the chemical elements of a material, such as AlNi alloy, for example, and from first principles, with relatively few approximations and no empirical parameters, can compute the material properties within a few percent. The point I am trying to make here is that materials are continuous, but quite bumpy, at the atomic level. The electrons exist as clouds of charge, with varying densities, as you roam around crystal structures of materials. The material properties come from things like the curvature of the electron densities causing electrostatic force fields which hold the atoms together. The nuclei are periodically spaced through the materials, essentially at discrete points, but they have a very small width, and the electrons, especially the valence electrons, exist as a "continuous electron gas" everywhere in material. Life is continuous, not discrete. Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 15:07:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27360; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:05:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:05:10 -0800 Message-ID: <387E5850.3CB7 ca-ois.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:57:20 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: quantum jump References: <387B70D8.3B87 ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dDQFJ1.0.Eh6.bebVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >MItchel Jones wrote; > > > >>***{I have no interest in ferreting out the error which led to that silly > >>conclusion, for two reasons: (a) as noted above, the principle of > >>continuity is foundational to the entire structure of human knowledge, and, > >>as such, is not subject to refutation by experiment; > > > > This sounds to me like "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is > >made up." This is just what I would expect from an athiest. > > ***{The epistemological validity of scientific knowledge depends on > principles that exist prior to and independently of science, such as the > principle of induction and the principle of continuity (which is necessary > to validate induction). Because such principles are part of the support > structure of science, their validity is presupposed by all scientific > endeavors, such as the practice of conducting experiments. No one, for > example, would be interested in doing an experiment, if they did not expect > that things would continue to behave as they have behaved in the past > (induction). After all, what would be the point? If Mizuno got "over unity" > results today by means an experiment, that would tell you nothing about > what would happen if he did the same thing tomorrow. Therefore, since the > significance of an experiment rests on the validity of the principle that > things will continue to behave as they behaved in the past, it follows that > there is no experiment whatsoever that could ever hope to verify that > principle. You could run a thousand experiments, getting the same result > every time, and that would still not prove, or even render it likely, that > you would get that result if you did it again. In fact, the principle that > things will behave as they have behaved in the past is a deductive > consequence of the validity of the principle of continuity: it is only in a > universe where no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish > into nothing, that we can be sure the principle of induction holds. > Therefore, since the principle of continuity is foundational to the > principle on which science itself rests, no conceivable experiment could > ever verify it or falsify it. To see why, in a very direct way, simply ask > yourself how you could even know that the experiment took place at all, if > the principle of continuity were false. Even if you were standing in the > room watching the experiment, you couldn't know it was happening: for all > you knew, the sensations you thought were coming from the experiment might > just be leaping into existence out of nothing. Or, alternatively, your > knowledge that the experiment was flawed might simply have vanished into > nothing. --MJ}*** I see nothing wrong with this explanation of the principle of continuity. Taken this way, all it is saying is that when cue ball A impinges on 8 ball B at the same angle 8 ball B will drop into hole C every time. This amounts to nothing more than a BIG "SO WHAT?" Why do we need to take up so much time discussing this in relation to the experimental result, which you refuse to discuss (other than to call it "silly") if you are NOT using this principle as an argument that supposedly invalidates the results of the experiment? I believe the reason is that you enjoy inserting dilatory, diverting, inconsequential, long winded verbosity into every discussion being conducted by people you wish to annoy, namely theists such as myself who do not agree with your conclusion that God doesn't exist, which assertion you construe that your "principle of continuity" PROVES! You therefore provide distraction from issues at hand to the issues you wish to press, namely that you think God doesn't exist, because you want to talk about that and not about the experiments. Fine. I understand now ALL ABOUT this principle of continuity and why it is an issue for you. Unfortunatley, that issue is off topic for Vortex-l and my next post about "God", if I decide to discuss "God", will be posted on VB. Notwithstanding that, I will finish my response to this missive, right here. >behind a God created universe is the belief that physical objects can > >spring into existance. This is possible because God is outside of this > >universe. > > ***{The principle of continuity refutes any conception of "God" that gives > him the power to create objects out of nothing or cause them to vanish into > nothing. If a 10 megaton nuke was set off 2 feet away from your house, it would vanish into "nothing". God, perhaps, if He was inclined, could thereafter put your house's constituent parts back together from wherever or whatever "nothing" is and thereby create something from "nothing". You have been playing a semantics game all along which is dependent on one's definition of a single word - "nothing". If a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat, a child might conclude that the magician created the rabbit out of "nothing". When a theist concludes that God can create things out of "nothing", this does not mean he thinks God is a mere "magician" performing "tricks". It means that he believes God is the Creator of all the Universe, he designed, built and gave it Order. What was the universe before God gave it order? It was "nothing", because it did not have order or any intelligence associated with it's constituent mass, or any order or intelligence associated with it's constituent energy. Where once there was disorder, Order was created by God's action resulting from His intelligence. Thus "something" (order) was created from "nothing" (disorder). Now can we get back to "anomalous" science? What is "anomalous" science anyway? (snip) Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 15:24:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00635; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:18:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:18:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:17:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WEHxs3.0.o9.gqbVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >The fact of the matter is >that thus far neither you, nor I, nor Mizuno, nor Ohmori, nor any of the >various participants in this group have succeeded in identifying anything >that Scott may be doing wrong. There is no way any of us could do that! That's ridiculous. Mizuno and Ohmori do electrochemistry, not ESP or remote viewing. They cannot tell what is happening in a laboratory halfway around the world which they have not visited. It might take months of careful analysis with SEM and other gadgets to pin down the problem. It often does. That is why Mizuno's lab is so crammed with equipment you barely fit in the door. He has well over $100,000 worth of equipment in there. Do you think it is decoration? How do you think people do electrochemistry anyway -- by gabbing on Internet? >***{You do not have a thought probe planted in the brain of anyone who >"survived Bockris' lab," including Mizuno . . . Yes, I do. I attended a two seminar at that lab and I listened to many hours of presentations by the grad students present and past (including Mizuno), and then I read all of their papers -- carefully. I have a reasonable grasp what they do and how much they know. Do you? , and you do not have one in Scott >Little's brain, either. Therefore you have no way of knowing whether he, or >Mizuno, have a better grasp of what is going on in this specific >experiment. You must be joking. I sat with those people for three hours while they discussed what is probably going on in this specific experiment, on the atomic level, in more detail than I could begin to tell you. Mind you, they may be wrong, but they sure do have some specific ideas. >***{All of which tells us *exactly diddley squat* about what Scott is doing >wrong, or what Mizuno is doing wrong. Like it or not, when the dust >settles, someone is going to have to do that, in order for one assessment >of this experiment to prevail here rather than the other. Mizuno has already been replicated by a professional full time electrochemist at KRI, one of Japan's preeminant electrochemical labs. You can't beat that for credibility. By any standard, his assessment wins so far. If 4 or 5 other labs of that caliber -- with that kind of credibility -- replicate Mizuno, Scott Little's problems will have zero significance, out to five decimal places. Let's get real here. Places like Mitsubishi and the KRI have about a million times more credibility than EarthTech, International, with all due respect. They have a million times more money too, which is probably why they can replicate. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 15:55:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09189; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:53:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:53:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000113175955.0079f130 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:59:55 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <200001132101.OAA11683 smtp.asu.edu> References: <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yUSVO1.0.LF2.ULcVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: >Come on Jed. That's a red herring and you know it. Nobody is claiming Scott >has the training of Bokris or Mizuno. Nobody can be an expert in >everything. Quite right! In fact, I expect Scott knows more about process control and thermostat software than Mizuno does. (He knows a lot more about it than I do!) The problem is that this particular experiment requires knowledge of electrochemistry. The extent of this knowledge is difficult for me to describe because, frankly, when I listened to Mizuno, Ohmori, Akimoto and the grad students brainstorm about it, the coversation quickly went over my head. > If >Mizuno and Scott get together, something interesting and informative is bound >to happen. Probably yes. I look forward to the outcome. One of them is doing the experiment "wrong" or one of them is doing >the calorimetry "wrong". Well, sort of, but not necessarily. The materials are most likely the problem, and it can be extremely tricky to track down exactly what the problem is. For example, when you expose gold to air for less than a minute, the surface can become contaminated and its properties at a catalyst change radically. (Gold as a catalyst has not practical use as far as I know, but I read about some people who were working on this problem for a long time, as pure research.) In other words, it might work in one lab and not another, because of handling and contamination. This is quite a common problem in ordinary surface catalysis applications. (Conventional stuff other than CF, I mean.) Sometimes experts spend months tearing their hair out looking for the source of these problems. I met one who did that under trying circumstances during WWII. We can hope that Scott will at least have the opportunity to observe the CF effect, just as he did when he visited Ed Storms. That's always fun, anyway, even if you cannot bring home the skills to replicate. > And if they were in the same place working together >for a while, I bet they could figure out which it is. I hope so. I am fairly optimistic about that, but Scott may want to budget a week. I hate to be discouraging but Scott should be mentally prepared for the worst case. It might stop working for a month or two just as he shows up. Again, people who do conventional electrolysis and surface catalysis applications live with that. I am told it happens at factories sometimes, millions of dollars are lost, and nobody knows why for weeks. It is a tough business! Chemistry is not an exact science. Mike Carrell likes to tell the story about when they changed to cows diets, the Kodak film production line went pieces. Something about gelatin, as I recall. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 16:50:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03770; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:48:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:48:41 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:48:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com><3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570@pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA03709 Resent-Message-ID: <"Yd0tP2.0.lw.e9dVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:13:56 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >Hold the phone, Jed, go to www.eden.com/~little/new.htm and look at the >track record. Scott, from the photo of run 4, I noticed that you have a lid (or cap) on the cell, while in the diagram in IE ("For the fourth run in this series we again emulated the calorimetry employed by Ohmori and Mizuno described in "Nuclear Transmutation reaction Caused by Light Water Electrolysis on Tungsten Cathode Under Incandescent Conditions", Infinite Energy #27, p. 34.") - there is just a support bridge on top of the cell. This appears to imply that O&M. are using an open cell, and you are using a closed cell (or nearly closed). This could lead to a large difference in evaporation. (Or is my ignorance showing again?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 17:05:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07592; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:01:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:01:13 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:11:31 -0500 Message-ID: <20000114011131562.AAA278 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"Zd9vW2.0.Xs1.OLdVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Didn't mean to start another flame throwing contest here, but I guess that is just part of the unique and wonderful synergy of The Vortex Group. I would suggest further, that in addition to putting a $99 computer camera in each respective lab to bring it out of the stone age, asking Mizuno what his rate of spin is on the stirring device that he uses might be a good idea. Knuke - that was my Kodak story, btw... Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 17:35:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25630; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:33:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:33:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114093033.008c0100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:30:33 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Nature reports effect on atomic clocks of 1999 eclipse In-Reply-To: <20000113035212171.AAA199 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_t3vJ1.0.IG6.PpdVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke wrote: > jwinter writes: > >>... any gravitational effect produced by the >>sun (24hr) or moon (~25hr) such as earth tides, tilts etc, will vary at >>twice this rate and the double frequency effect should vastly dominate >>over any orbital or spin fundamental frequencies. This is not the case >>in his data - the 24-25 hour effect greatly dominate any 12-12.5 hour >>effect. > >I didn't realize this was even an issue. Any sailor can tell you that >there are two high tides in a day - one is always a bit higher. Some places only have one tide, and the fact that one is usually higher indicates a 25 hour effect is present. Also the experiment happened to be done on land and so the sea tides are not really of significance except as an illustration of what might also happen to the land. One could guess that the sudden cooling and heating effect of the earths surface as the moon's shadow slowly passes by could produce some tilt of the earth's surface and possibly be an explanation of the transient eclipse effect observed by Allais. But the 24 & 25 hour components in his data were much more of an issue for him - see page 7 of his paper. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 17:46:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23735; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:43:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:43:16 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:43:02 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Testing with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA23682 Resent-Message-ID: <"O3J7p.0.no5.pydVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/11/00 9:55:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, george varisys.com writes: > Previously posted data from Vince: > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Run 010600 completed today. H2 and K fill. > H2 fill pressure 20 ±0.1 torr. > Tc was 249.1 C ±0.1 C > Tv was 649 VDC ±1% > Ta was 0.0303 amp ±1% > Tw (Tv X Ta) was 19.66 > Tc/w was 12.67 degrees per watt. > > Compare the above readings to the 3 calibration runs conducted 7-24 thru > 8-8-99 below: > > Fill---Tc-----Tv-----Ta-----Tw-----Tc/w > 20.7--221.9--0759--0.0257--19.50--11.37 > 20.0--193.5--0766--0.0219--16.77--11.53 > 20.0--203.5--0750--0.0209--15.67--12.98 > ------------------------------------------------------------- George responds: > Note that the third calibration run gave a very different Tc/w > than the first two runs. The intrepretation of the with K run > would be clearer if you could provide the ambient temperature > readings for all four runs. You are running a crude calorimeter > where the reference temperature is your garage ambient. IOW the > ambient temperature adds to the measured Tc and should > be compensated for by Tcc = Tc - ( Ta - Tstd ) . > Tcc is the corrected Tc > Tstd is an average ambient temperature for all runs > Ta is the ambient temperature for each run > - > This seems like a good approximation to me. > Any comments from the thermal measurement experts? And Scott Little also replied: > Does "stubborn" count?... Yes, I agree that the ambient temp should be > included, either as you indicate above or by simply making the calibration > in terms of the delta-T between Tc and Troom. Agreed Scott, stubborn definitely does count. > - > Tom Stolper asked: > >Can you estimate what input power Vince would need with K to match the cell > >temperature (Tsubc) without K? That might help Vince deal with the thermal > >delay problem more easily. > Let's see if the Ta numbers make the results a little more consistent before > putting a number on any possible overunity factor. > - > Regards, > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East > Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > With the (hopefully) power input stability the Texmate meter and controls will provide, I am considering starting from scratch and rerunning all the calibration runs of the glow discharge without K. If I can construct a servo control where I can set a power input level and have it hold that input it will greatly simplify this experiment. This was the biggest problem I had, trying to juggle the power input levels to hold them steady, not an easy task when it involved getting readings from two digital meters, multiplying the readings ( V x I ) and then adjusting the power variac. John S. is sending me a schematic for a solid state Variac that I will construct and interface to the Texmate meter. This will allow me to set an X watts input and all I will have to watch is tube fill pressure and record temperature readings. What say you to the idea of rerunning the no K calibration runs? I personally want to as I am uncomfortable with the power input as it was done, too sloppy and too many possibilities of introducing errors. I want this experiment to be as complete as possible. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 19:48:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05427; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:38:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:38:38 -0800 Message-ID: <387E987D.1B01 ca-ois.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:31:10 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: quantum jump References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M5ZBi1.0.eK1.-efVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hank scudder wrote: (snip) We have a fantastic SGI computer system, 20 parallel processors, > and can handle up to about 1000 atoms at a time in the calculations. I am > just a first year graduate student here, but I have seen the results > others are getting and it is quite impressive. One can start with the > chemical elements of a material, such as AlNi alloy, for example, and from > first principles, with relatively few approximations and no empirical > parameters, can compute the material properties within a few percent. > It would seem to me then, with all of that firepower at your disposal there at CSUN, explaining the anomalous characteristics of the images at http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html and http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html should be a matter of a few minutes work. When you have a few minutes, on your break or whenever else it is convenient, would you mind looking into it, Hank? This fellow Smith has been complaining that mainstream science has been giving him the runaround on the issue alleged, and I told him that we Vortexians would surely be able to explain these results quite adequately, using the principles of standard physics, or, should these principles fail to provide an explanation, we would be the first to admit that he may be correct. Now is that being fair or what? > Life is continuous, not discrete. No doubts at all, except on Smith's part. Now all we have to do to prove that is to explain the above photographs in continuous terms, which I'm sure should be no problem for a really smart scientist such as yourself, who has the required technology at his disposal to do so. Thanks in advance! ;^) Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 20:46:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12251; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:43:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:43:41 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <387E5850.3CB7 ca-ois.com> References: <387B70D8.3B87 ca-ois.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:45:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: quantum jump Resent-Message-ID: <"y0551.0.L_2.ybgVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> >MItchel Jones wrote; >> > >> >>***{I have no interest in ferreting out the error which led to that silly >> >>conclusion, for two reasons: (a) as noted above, the principle of >> >>continuity is foundational to the entire structure of human knowledge, >>and, >> >>as such, is not subject to refutation by experiment; >> > >> > This sounds to me like "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is >> >made up." This is just what I would expect from an athiest. >> >> ***{The epistemological validity of scientific knowledge depends on >> principles that exist prior to and independently of science, such as the >> principle of induction and the principle of continuity (which is necessary >> to validate induction). Because such principles are part of the support >> structure of science, their validity is presupposed by all scientific >> endeavors, such as the practice of conducting experiments. No one, for >> example, would be interested in doing an experiment, if they did not expect >> that things would continue to behave as they have behaved in the past >> (induction). After all, what would be the point? If Mizuno got "over unity" >> results today by means an experiment, that would tell you nothing about >> what would happen if he did the same thing tomorrow. Therefore, since the >> significance of an experiment rests on the validity of the principle that >> things will continue to behave as they behaved in the past, it follows that >> there is no experiment whatsoever that could ever hope to verify that >> principle. You could run a thousand experiments, getting the same result >> every time, and that would still not prove, or even render it likely, that >> you would get that result if you did it again. In fact, the principle that >> things will behave as they have behaved in the past is a deductive >> consequence of the validity of the principle of continuity: it is only in a >> universe where no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish >> into nothing, that we can be sure the principle of induction holds. >> Therefore, since the principle of continuity is foundational to the >> principle on which science itself rests, no conceivable experiment could >> ever verify it or falsify it. To see why, in a very direct way, simply ask >> yourself how you could even know that the experiment took place at all, if >> the principle of continuity were false. Even if you were standing in the >> room watching the experiment, you couldn't know it was happening: for all >> you knew, the sensations you thought were coming from the experiment might >> just be leaping into existence out of nothing. Or, alternatively, your >> knowledge that the experiment was flawed might simply have vanished into >> nothing. --MJ}*** > >I see nothing wrong with this explanation of the principle of >continuity. Taken this way, all it is saying is that when cue ball A >impinges on 8 ball B at the same angle >8 ball B will drop into hole C every time. This amounts to nothing more >than a BIG "SO WHAT?" > >Why do we need to take up so much time discussing this in relation to >the experimental result, which you refuse to discuss (other than to call >it "silly") if you are NOT using this principle as an argument that >supposedly invalidates the results of the experiment? ***{OK, one more time. The experiment to which you refer does *not* provide evidence that the principle of continuity is invalid, because *no experiment can do that*. The principle of continuity lies at the foundation of the structure of human knowledge. Without it, man can know nothing, whether about science or anything else. Therefore the experiment to which you refer raises one question, and one question only: what is the nature of the physical process which caused the image on the photo to be sharp, given the *unarguable fact* that the motion of the bullet was continuous? That is the only question to be answered here. The question of whether the motion of the bullet was continuous is not an issue for a rational mind, because all motion is necessarily continuous. Therefore I'm not saying the principle of continuity "invalidates the result of the experiment." The experiment is what it is. But the principle of continuity does invalidate *your interpretation* of the result of the experiment, because you have repeatedly alleged that the experiment supports the conclusion that motion is discontinuous. It doesn't. No experiment can disprove any of the principles upon which experimental science is based. --MJ}*** > >I believe the reason is that you enjoy inserting dilatory, diverting, >inconsequential, long winded verbosity into every discussion being >conducted by people you wish to annoy, namely theists such as myself who >do not agree with your conclusion that God doesn't exist, which >assertion you construe that your "principle of continuity" PROVES! ***{And I believe that you consider my comments to be "dilatory, diverting, inconsequential, long winded verbosity" *because you do not want to comprehend what I am saying*. Why not? Simple: your significant others would reject you if you were to comprehend what I am saying, because that would not merely compel you to reject "quantum mechanics," but "God" as well. That, in my opinion, is the source of your ongoning hostility. You do not regard what I am saying as an argument in support of an abstract principle, but as an argument that you should adopt beliefs that would destroy important interpersonal relationships. Thus you take it very personally. --MJ}*** > >You therefore provide distraction from issues at hand to the issues you >wish to press, namely that you think God doesn't exist, because you want >to talk about that and not about the experiments. ***{Wrong. I have no interest whatsoever in the issue of whether "God" exists, and virtually never comment about it unless someone else brings it up. If you don't want to discuss it with me, you have a simple way to avoid doing so: simply stop referring to the subject when you respond to something I said. --MJ}*** > >Fine. I understand now ALL ABOUT this principle of continuity and why it >is an issue for you. ***{For the record, I settled the issue of whether God exists on other grounds, long before I entered elementary school. I didn't enunciate the principle that I later came to call the "principle of continuity" until decades later, long after I lost all interest in the supposed "issue" of whether "God" exists. (In my view, if something that intrinsically silly qualifies as an "issue," then the existence of Santa Claus would qualify as well.) You, and a number of others in this group, are the ones eaten up by religion, not I. And you, not I, are the ones who keep bringing the subject up. My interest in the principle of continuity has been almost entirely confined to its applications to formal philosophy and to physics, and it is those aspects that I prefer to discuss here. --MJ}*** Unfortunatley, that issue is off topic for Vortex-l >and my next post about "God", if I decide to discuss "God", will be >posted on VB. Notwithstanding that, I will finish my response to this >missive, right here. > >>behind a God created universe is the belief that physical objects can >> >spring into existance. This is possible because God is outside of this >> >universe. >> >> ***{The principle of continuity refutes any conception of "God" that gives >> him the power to create objects out of nothing or cause them to vanish into >> nothing. > >If a 10 megaton nuke was set off 2 feet away from your house, it would >vanish into "nothing". ***{If you really believe that, why are you posting to a physics group? No competent physicist on this planet would agree that the house would be reduced to nothing. It would, in fact, be reduced to atoms, ions, and energy, none of which qualify as nothing. But, of course, you are perfectly aware that such a statement is incorrect. That's why you put "nothing" in quotes. --MJ}*** > >God, perhaps, if He was inclined, could thereafter put your house's >constituent parts back together from wherever or whatever "nothing" is >and thereby create something from "nothing". ***{"Constituent parts" sounds suspiciously like "something" to me! :-) --MJ}*** > >You have been playing a semantics game all along which is dependent on >one's definition of a single word - "nothing". ***{You are the one who is playing around with the clear meaning of a word, not I. --MJ}*** If a magician pulls a >rabbit out of a hat, a child might conclude that the magician created >the rabbit out of "nothing". ***{A child might, but an adult would not. Yet many adults do, in fact, believe that God created the universe out of nothing, and virtually to a man they would disagree with your novel claim that he, in fact, created it out of pre-existing "constituent parts." --MJ}*** > >When a theist concludes that God can create things out of "nothing", >this does not mean he thinks God is a mere "magician" performing >"tricks". ***{Very true. Real theists believe that God created the universe out of nothing. It is only fake theists who claim that God "created" the universe by the sleight-of-hand manipulation of pre-existing parts, like a stage magician. --MJ}*** It means that he believes God is the Creator of all the >Universe, he designed, built and gave it Order. ***{Not all. You say he put the thing together out of preexisting parts. (Was it a kit? Did it come with instructions? Is it available by mail order? :-) --MJ}*** What was the universe >before God gave it order? It was "nothing", because it did not have >order or any intelligence associated with it's constituent mass, or any >order or intelligence associated with it's constituent energy. Where >once there was disorder, Order was created by God's action resulting >from His intelligence. Thus "something" (order) was created from >"nothing" (disorder). ***{All you have done, above, is to illustrate the truth of Dewey's dictum: "It is far easier to be religious by definition, than to be religious by conviction." Nevertheless, I say "Bravo!" You have at least demonstrated that you have some understanding of the principle of continuity. If you did not understand the danger that it poses, you would not have attempted the above artifice, in hopes of escaping from its coils. --MJ}*** > >Now can we get back to "anomalous" science? ***{Why ask me? I'm not the one who keeps injecting religion into these discussions. As soon as you and a few others stop arguing everything from a religious perspective, that will be that. I have no interest in the subject at all, though I *will* respond to people who dress up their scientific opinions in religious garb in hopes of exempting them from criticism. --MJ}*** What is "anomalous" science >anyway? ***{It's a term that has become popular of late, to describe experimental results that do not seem explicable in terms of the manistream scientific paradigm. It applies to lots of stuff: CF, the Newman motor, experiments showing FTL motion, recent Foucault pendulum experiments conducted during eclipses, the Biefield-Brown effect, etc. --MJ}*** > >(snip) > >Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 21:27:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26607; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:23:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:23:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000113232424.006d2e74 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:24:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"u3vOC2.0.eV6.TBhVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:48 AM 1/14/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Scott,...you have a lid (or cap) on the cell, while in...Ohmori and Mizuno... >there is just a support bridge on top of the cell. This appears to >imply that O&M. are using an open cell, and you are using a closed cell (or >nearly closed). This could lead to a large difference in evaporation. Indeed. I asked M about this and he said that he placed a similar cap on his cell and that, without it, the heat loss rates were much higher. I believe the cell depicted in the article is one of O's cells (he works separately from M) and it may well have been open at the top as shown. That could be where the 99 watt cooling rate is coming from. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 06:42:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19563; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:41:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:41:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114094058.007c98a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:40:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Other Hokkaido U. glow discharge papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Tb3jJ3.0.an4.7MpVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I mentioned the "other equipment" in Mizuno's lab and the conversations that swirled around me (around and over my head) about advanced electrochemistry and the precise sequence of chemical and nuclear events occuring on the cathode and anode surface. I should be a little more specific about this. Most of this consists of before-and-after material studies, but there are also in-situ examinations of the reaction. I listed a paper and abstract in my I.E. report about this. Here it is again: Kazuhisa Azumi, Masahiro Seo, and Tadahiko Mizuno, "Light Emission Spectroscopy from Metal Electrodes during Electrolysis," Graduate School of Engineering, Hokkaido University Abstract Light emission from the metal electrodes cathodically polarized at cell voltages up to 250 V was investigated in various aqueous electrolyte solutions. The light emission was observed when the temperature of electrodes exceeded the boiling temperature of the electrolyte due to the intense cathodic polarization a thin vapor layer was formed at the metal / electrolyte interface in which a high electric field ionized vapor molecules to generate the plasma state. The light emission was caused by a glow discharge at relatively low cell voltages and by a spark discharge at high cell voltages. The spectra of the emitted light were assigned to the constituents of the electrolyte solution, electrode material and gaseous hydrogen evolved at the electrode. There was also a paper by Sengupta about this: Susanta K. Sengupta, Rajesliwar Singk, and Askok K. Srivastava Department of Chemistry, Faculty of Science, Banaras Hindu University, Varanasi-221 005, India, "A Study on the Origin of Nonfaradaic Behavior of Anodic Contact Glow Discharge Electrolysis - The Relationship Between Power Dissipated in Glow Discharges and Nonfaradaic Yields," J. Electrochem. Soc., Vol. 145, No. 7, July 1998 I think the instruments and techniques in the in-situ studies interfere with calorimetry, so they do not try to measure the energy balance. The content of these reports is over my head, but it is clear that in order to tame the W glow-discharge CF reaction, you have to deal with it on this level. Years ago, I said that the detailed chemistry at the cathode surface is probably the key to understanding the CF nuclear reaction. Someone replied 'that's silly, a chemical reaction cannot cause a nuclear reaction,' and research into the conventional chemical reactions is not likely to reveal how the Coulumb barrier is pushed aside (or negated, or whatever happens to it). That may be so, but we must recreate the precise chemical conditions that give rise to the nuclear-active "special state of matter." A chemical explosion cannot usually trigger a nuclear event either, but it can in a fission bomb. Much of the research in the Manhattan project was devoted to conventional chemical explosive chemistry and precise electronic timing to trigger the explosions. Increased understanding of conventional, long-established chemistry was the key to triggering a nuclear reaction. Regarding the role of the calorimeter in the glow discharge CF reaction which I mentioned to Scott Little, there is some evidence that subtle changes in the electrolyte temperature and conditions and have amplified effect on the cathode glow discharge reaction. I do not know the details. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 06:47:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21616; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:46:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114094604.0079baa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:46:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Other Hokkaido U. glow discharge papers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000114094058.007c98a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ecYRQ2.0.cH5.xQpVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Regarding the role of the calorimeter in the glow discharge CF reaction >which I mentioned to Scott Little, there is some evidence that subtle >changes in the electrolyte temperature and conditions and have amplified >effect on the cathode glow discharge reaction. That's supposed to say: electrolyte temperature and conditions at the anode amplify the effect at the cathode. There have also been before-and-after studies of the electrolyte, which may also play an important role. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 07:35:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07730; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:32:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:32:24 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:32:20 EST Subject: The B-2 "Spirit" and the Biefeld-Brown effect... To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA07707 Resent-Message-ID: <"eAHci2.0.iu1.86qVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear all, For those who are interested in the Electrogravitics technologies applied to advanced propulsion, I recommend you strongly to read the excellent article from Bill Gunston in the "AIR Intenational" Vol 58 - January 2000 ( 770306563103 ) £2.95, Canadian $8.50 This article " Military Power " is about : "Engines for military aircraft have to meet a set of criteria different from those of commercial jets and turboprops. There are also far more variations, as Bill Gunston OBE FRAeS explains"... "..... It appeared that the gravity field could not only propel aircraft to supersonic speed with propulsive efficiency greater than 1 but could also lift them independtly of the atmosphere..." " ( a coloured picture ) Plan view of the B-2 illustrating the positively-charged ionised air of the aircraft and the negatively-charged air in the jet exhaust. Cowling on either side of the cockpit feed large amount of air to the flame-jet high voltage generators enclosed withing the B2's body..." (Mike Badrocket/ AIR International ) You must read this article, if you are interested in the Electrogravitics technologies... You may also visit my web site about the ARDA Project for some experimental testing results and proof of concept devices on the Biefeld-Brown effect at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/advprop.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 07:43:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11689; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:40:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:40:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200001132103.OAA20081 smtp.asu.edu> References: <387B70D8.3B87@ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:33:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: quantum jump Resent-Message-ID: <"LJHoY2.0.Vs2.GDqVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 01:17 PM 1/13/00 -0600, you wrote: >>>MItchel Jones wrote; > >>***{The principle of continuity refutes any conception of "God" that gives >>him the power to create objects out of nothing or cause them to vanish into >>nothing. Since that's central to the concept of "God" with a capital G, it >>is crystal clear that such a being does not exist and never did exist. > > >>--MJ}*** > >Is that a God given "principle of continuity" you've got there Mitch? > >--Lynn ***{Are you asking what it is based upon? If so, then you must have missed the previous discussions of this topic, which have been extensive. Principles that lie at the base of the structure of human knowledge obviously cannot be the deductive consequences of principles that are still more basic. (If they could, they wouldn't be fundamental, now would they? :-) Nevertheless, that does not mean they are unverifiable, because we can assume that they are false, and note the consequences. As I have pointed out before, if we assume that the principle of continuity is false, the result is the collapse of the entire structure of human knowledge. We discover that, in that case, we lose all grounds for believing in the existence of the external world, and our bodies, and our minds, and the self. How so? Simple. The principle of continuity states that no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing. If it is false, then (a) we have no basis for believing that sensations have sources, and (b) we have no basis for believing that large chunks of our memories have not simply disappeared into nothing. If sensations need not have sources, then the sensations that convince us of the existence of the external world, our bodies, our memories, our subconscious minds, our emotions, etc., may simply be leaping into existence out of nothing. And if chunks of our memories may simply vanish into nothing (as opposed to the normal process of moving into the subconscious), then any conclusion we reach by a process of reasoning is without basis, because the information that refuted it may have simply vanished from our memory plate. (Do you think you proved the Pythagorean theorem? How can you believe that, if you have no basis for believing that your memories are intact? Maybe you refuted it instead, and that information then vanished from your mind!) Note that if the principle of continuity is invalid, we do not merely lose reason: we lose everything. If a person thinks he believes something based on "faith," for example, he may have believed the opposite based on reason a moment before, and that belief may have simply vanished. The point: if the principle of continuity is false, then we lose all basis for believing in anything whatsoever, including our own existence. Thus the principle of continuity must be true not because it is based on something more fundamental, but because the alternative to its being true is an absurdity so massive that it is laughable. A note for those who are interested in formal epistemology: the most potent, and most fundamental, kind of proof thus turns out to be an indirect proof based on what is known as reductio ad absurdum. It is the only type of proof that can used to verify principles that lie at the foundation of human knowledge. By means of such proofs we discover that, contrary to the assertions of irrationalist philosophers, reason rests upon foundations of steel. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 08:09:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24620; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:08:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:08:00 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:05:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The B-2 "Spirit" and the Biefeld-Brown effect... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA24480 Resent-Message-ID: <"k253m2.0.c06.VdqVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Dear all, > >For those who are interested in the Electrogravitics technologies applied to >advanced propulsion, I recommend you strongly to read the excellent article >from Bill Gunston in the "AIR Intenational" Vol 58 - January 2000 ( >770306563103 ) £2.95, Canadian $8.50 > >This article " Military Power " is about : >"Engines for military aircraft have to meet a set of criteria different from >those of commercial jets and turboprops. There are also far more variations, >as Bill Gunston OBE FRAeS explains"... > >"..... It appeared that the gravity field could not only propel aircraft to >supersonic speed with propulsive efficiency greater than 1 but could also >lift them independently of the atmosphere..." ***{Yes. I thought so. That's why I raised the point the other day. Thanks, Jean. The reference is appreciated. By the way: it isn't a "gravity field", despite the claim in the article. It is an aether drive. The electric field is configured in such a way as to push the aether one way, thereby pushing the aircraft the other. That's why a demonstration of this effect in a vacuum will constitute final, smoking gun proof that the aether exists. (Note: The aether is a particulate medium having mass and energy that pervades all of space. If the medium were not particulate, you couldn't push part of it without pushing all of it; and if it didn't have mass and energy, no reaction force would be exerted on the device that did the pushing.) I therefore encourage you, in the strongest possible terms, to conduct such an experiment. It would be a historic demonstration, with vastly greater ultimate significance than the Michelson-Morley experiment. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >" ( a coloured picture ) Plan view of the B-2 illustrating the >positively-charged ionised air of the aircraft and the negatively-charged air >in the jet exhaust. Cowling on either side of the cockpit feed large amount >of air to the flame-jet high voltage generators enclosed withing the B2's >body..." (Mike Badrocket/ AIR International ) > >You must read this article, if you are interested in the Electrogravitics >technologies... > >You may also visit my web site about the ARDA Project for some experimental >testing results and proof of concept devices on the Biefeld-Brown effect at : > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/advprop.htm > >Best Regards > >Jean-Louis Naudin >Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com >Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs >eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 08:23:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31379; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:21:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:21:12 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000114101730.01cfd4ec mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:17:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Other Hokkaido U. glow discharge papers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000114094604.0079baa0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000114094058.007c98a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pPF3f2.0.Dg7.tpqVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:46 AM 1/14/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>Regarding the role of the calorimeter in the glow discharge CF reaction >>which I mentioned to Scott Little, there is some evidence that subtle >>changes in the electrolyte temperature and conditions and have amplified >>effect on the cathode glow discharge reaction. > >That's supposed to say: electrolyte temperature and conditions at the anode >amplify the effect at the cathode. Yes, that's why I deliberately adjusted the thermal coupling in my water-flow calorimeter to allow the cell temperature to range up into the mid-90's. That was also a significant influence on my recent decision to emulate Ohmori's calorimetry, where the run is conducted with the electrolyte boiling. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 08:39:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06170; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:36:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:36:55 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <387F5EFE.49CFD7E3 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:38:06 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: quantum jump References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"w1QCl3.0.KW1.c2rVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hank scudder wrote: In studying Solid State Physics, I have come to realize that most of our thinking in this Vortex-L group about using quantum mechanics needs some upgrading. In real material, the atomic theory and quantum mechanics are used in a continuous manner, not discretely ... The group I am working in here at CSUN is doing ab-initio calculations (so are lots of other places around the world), using quantum theory and Schroedinger's equation to compute material properties from the atom up ... Life is continuous, not discrete. Hi Hank, I admire the success of the equations of quantum mechanics, but we should not lose sight of the fact that they are DESIGN equations. They can be used to predict what mixture will give an alloy of certain properties over the range of the data. They can be used to suggest further experiments. In themselves, they do not prove that matter (or anything else) is continuous or discrete. (See Horace Heffner's initial analysis of a system of quantized physics. I wish he would derive E = mc^2 using this approach.) As far a material science is concerned, it is often practical to work with convenient fictions. In some chemistry lab courses, a little lip service is given to electrons, protons, and neutrons. Then they are ignored in the process of calculating the quantities of reagents to be used for certain reactions. It is convenient to pretend that the atoms and ions of the chemical elements are actually "not cuttable". I have heard that Ernst Mach developed a practical system of chemistry without even referring to atoms. Quantum mechanics really gets interesting when we consider the fate of Schroedinger's cat. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 08:52:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21904; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:49:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:49:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:49:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ivesians vs Einsteinians Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XlfNv2.0.5M5.oErVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, Bit busy but I will try to contribute. I'm more concerned with guaging people's reaction to this subject than adding to the thread. I don't like Relativity but it explains things. It appears to be logically inconsistent according to Ivesians. What physical process do Ivesian's ascribe to time dilation and mass gain? Einstein doesn't tell me physically why, but provides 'an answer' that is just so, so to speak. For instance, there was a chap in I.E. who wrote a short paper called 'Alternative explaination for mass gain' and ascribed it to e.m. field effects. I could relate to that. I have similar problems with quantum mechanic's 'just so' type answers but that's another time, another thread. Sorry if I go quiet. It'll be work load or igronance. Happy New Year, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 09:00:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15116; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:59:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:59:12 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:54:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"14Ew-1.0.6i3.VNrVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/32999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>The fact of the matter is >>that thus far neither you, nor I, nor Mizuno, nor Ohmori, nor any of the >>various participants in this group have succeeded in identifying anything >>that Scott may be doing wrong. > >There is no way any of us could do that! That's ridiculous. Mizuno and >Ohmori do electrochemistry, not ESP or remote viewing. They cannot tell >what is happening in a laboratory halfway around the world which they have >not visited. ***{Scott has photos and descriptions of his setup posted on the web. Any technically knowledgeable person can easily comprehend what he is doing. Moreover, Scott is very open and willing to respond to questions and to criticisms. He has been interacting with Mizuno via mail and via e-mail for months. Mizuno has sent him cathodes which worked in Mizuno's lab. They didn't work in Scott's lab. And Scott has prepared cathodes in his lab, where they did not work, and then sent them to Mizuno, where they *did* work. Thus both groups know with a high degree of accuracy what the other is doing, and they are on the same page with regard to the specifics of the experimental design. The strong possibility exists, therefore, that the differences in outcomes are *not* due to the experimental design, but to something external--some difference somewhere else in the lab. What might that be? One possible answer, as I have suggested in this group for months, is that the difference in outcomes is due to differences in the instruments being used to measure input power. Mizuno, by dint of dogged persistence over a span of years, may have unknowingly created a configuration of instruments that, by virtue of what is probably a complex process of wave addition, produces spikes that are timed to fall into the non-sampling intervals of his power meters. While I would not suggest that Scott ought to give up--this is far too important for that--I do think that the longer this impasse continues, the greater the likelihood that some sort of instrument-based anomaly lies at the root of it. The logical next step, as has been suggested by several others, is for Scott to pack his bags and head out to Sapporo. If I were him, I would be prepared to spend as much time there as it takes to get to the bottom of this, assuming Mizuno is agreeable to that. And he will need a translator, so I think a fellow by the name of Jed Rothwell should accompany him. (If you run across anyone by that name, please pass on my suggestion. :-) --MJ}*** It might take months of careful analysis with SEM and other >gadgets to pin down the problem. It often does. That is why Mizuno's lab is >so crammed with equipment you barely fit in the door. He has well over >$100,000 worth of equipment in there. Do you think it is decoration? How do >you think people do electrochemistry anyway -- by gabbing on Internet? ***{The more equipment Mizuno has crammed into his lab, the more complex the electrical environment becomes, and the greater the likelihood that something about that environment is responsible for the observed effect. I therefore think Scott should take his entire experiment--cathode, beaker, anode, electrolyte, connecting wires, etc.--with him to Sapporo, and let Mizuno connect it to his instruments without changing a thing. That way, if Mizuno gets an "over unity" number, Scott will know from the outset that the problem does not lie in contamination, surface chemistry, the beaker materials, the lead wires, etc. That will narrow the focus to the electrical environment. And if Mizuno does *not* get an over unity number from Scott's setup, but does get one when he removes Scott's cathode, puts it through his cleaning process, and uses it in one of his own cells, then Scott will know from the outset that his cell is fouled up in some way. --MJ}*** > > >>***{You do not have a thought probe planted in the brain of anyone who >>"survived Bockris' lab," including Mizuno . . . > >Yes, I do. I attended a two seminar at that lab and I listened to many >hours of presentations by the grad students present and past (including >Mizuno), and then I read all of their papers -- carefully. I have a >reasonable grasp what they do and how much they know. ***{You have repeatedly claimed that their discussions of what they are doing are "over your head." That being the case, you have no basis for concluding that they are not spouting nonsense much of the time. While I am not saying that is the case, I am saying you would not be able to tell if it were. Therefore you should consider the possibility that you can follow what Scott says because Scott knows what he is talking about, and that you cannot follow Mizuno because he is spouting nonsense much of the time. --MJ}*** Do you? ***{I have no idea where they fall on the continuum between "knowledgeable scientists" and "idiots", and if much of what they say is "over your head," then neither do you. That is why this matter cannot be decided by focusing on irrelevant speculations about stream of consciousness events in the minds of the participants. Like it or not, the experimental results themselves, and the reasoning which best explains those results, are all that counts here. That's why your incessant attempts to focus on Scott's and Mizuno's credentials are both off topic and destabilizing. To his credit, Scott has thus far ignored your recent comments in this area, and because of that it might still be possible for the two of you to travel to Sapporo together without coming to blows. To ensure that continues, I suggest that you drop this line of discussion now. --MJ}*** [continued destabilizing and irrelevant comments snipped] > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 09:35:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26982; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:31:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:31:46 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200001132103.OAA20081 smtp.asu.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:21:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: quantum jump Resent-Message-ID: <"dfgX52.0.Sb6.0srVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > In studying Solid State Physics, I have come to realize that most >of our thinking in this Vortex-L group about using quantum mechanics needs >some upgrading. In real material, the atomic theory and quantum mechanics >are used in a continuous manner, not discretely. ***{As I have pointed out many times in the past, there are no "equations of quantum mechanics." Mathematical constructs that have been deliberately fitted to experimental data points cannot be claimed by the proponents of any theoretical paradigm, whether it is the discontinuous paradigm of "quantum mechanics" or the continuous paradigm of classical mechanics. The equations do not give a hoot in hell what school you adhere to. If you plug in the same numbers and do the same manipulations, you will get the same answers. Thus the fact that the proponents of "quantum mechanics" are in the habit of claiming exclusive sovereignty over every equation that has been fitted to experimental data over the past 80 years does not mean that, in fact, they have any basis for their claims. And the fact that there are literally thousands of classes labeled "quantum mechanics" in university curricula around the world which deal with nothing but experimentally fitted mathematical constructs and their manipulation does not mean that those courses have anything whatsoever to do with quantum mechanics. --MJ}*** The charge density is the >most useful way of thinking about materials, not thinking about electrons >as little worlds traveling about in discrete separate orbits as in a >solar system. ***{For calculations involving large numbers of atoms, one need not worry about the specific pathways taken by individual electrons or about the structure of the electron, but one should not lose sight of the fact--and it most assuredly is a fact--that electrons have specific structures and follow specific, continuous pathways around the nucleus. All this stuff about the electron spending significant amounts of time in the center of the nucleus, for example, is exactly as true, for exactly the same reasons, as it would be true to say that the Earth spends significant amounts of time inside the Sun. Both statements arise from a statistical perspective based on such a vast time scale that, within it, the details of structure and pathway become unimportant. (On a scale of tens of billions of years, the Sun will become a red giant and swallow up the Earth.) --MJ}*** The group I am working in here at CSUN is doing ab-initio >calculations (so are lots of other places around the world), using quantum >theory and Schroedingers equation to compute material properties from the >atom up. We have a fantastic SGI computer system, 20 parallel processors, >and can handle up to about 1000 atoms at a time in the calculations. I am >just a first year graduate student here, but I have seen the results >others are getting and it is quite impressive. One can start with the >chemical elements of a material, such as AlNi alloy, for example, and from >first principles, with relatively few approximations and no empirical >parameters, can compute the material properties within a few percent. > > The point I am trying to make here is that materials are >continuous, but quite bumpy, at the atomic level. The electrons exist as >clouds of charge, with varying densities, as you roam around crystal >structures of materials. The material properties come from things like >the curvature of the electron densities causing electrostatic force >fields which hold the atoms together. The nuclei are periodically spaced >through the materials, essentially at discrete points, but they have a >very small width, and the electrons, especially the valence electrons, >exist as a "continuous electron gas" everywhere in material. > >Life is continuous, not discrete. ***{Yup. And your recognition of that state of affairs makes you a practitioner of classical mechanics, not quantum mechanics. Congratulations! --MJ}*** > >Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 09:50:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02730; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:48:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:48:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000114094604.0079baa0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000114094058.007c98a0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:45:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Other Hokkaido U. glow discharge papers Resent-Message-ID: <"bfZpd1.0.ag.t5sVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I wrote: > >>Regarding the role of the calorimeter in the glow discharge CF reaction >>which I mentioned to Scott Little, there is some evidence that subtle >>changes in the electrolyte temperature and conditions and have amplified >>effect on the cathode glow discharge reaction. > >That's supposed to say: electrolyte temperature and conditions at the anode >amplify the effect at the cathode. > >There have also been before-and-after studies of the electrolyte, which may >also play an important role. ***{Excellent points. That's why Scott needs to take his entire cell--beaker, anode, cathode, stirrer, lid, electrolyte, connecting wires, etc., with him when THE TWO OF YOU go to Sapporo TOGETHER. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 10:34:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19237; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:31:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:31:27 -0800 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:33:03 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Can anyone top a BAF of 43? X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200001141832.LAA11585 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Rcd4H1.0.Ri4._jsVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BAF stands for "Blowhard Amplification Factor". I posted the following 1 line question to {***Mitchell Schwartz***}: "Is that a God given "principle of continuity" you've got there Mitch?" Being unable to recognize the tongue-in-cheek nature of my question, he gave a response containing 43 lines, for a BAF (output / input) of 43, which I hereby claim as the record. Anyone care to challenge my claim? (Sorry vorts, I couldn't resist. I'll try to restrain myself next time). --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 10:42:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23149; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:40:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:40:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114134008.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:40:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OcyTx2.0.df5.UssVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones is telling us that the science of electrochemistry does not exist. There are whole libraries full of books describing the atomic & molecular mechanisms of hydrogen recombination on cathode surfaces, overpotential and thousands of other details, there are dozens of textbooks, professional publications, and papers available on Internet, but since he has never heard of this stuff, none of it matters. He writes: >***{Scott has photos and descriptions of his setup posted on the web. Any >technically knowledgeable person can easily comprehend what he is doing. This is pure nonsense. Little has not attempted to measure a single one of the critical details or parameters in the electrochemistry, such as OCV, absorbtion, loading or overpotential. There is no instrumentation in the cell! We have no idea what chemical species evolve in his cell, in what sequence, and what the final products are. (Electrochemical reactions products often change, and they can fluctuate during a reaction, and the speed of the reaction will change too -- the "rate determining factors" -- depending on complex parameters such as voltage, geometry, temperature, etc.) Essentially, we are blind to what is happening on the electrode surface in Texas. There are HUNDREDS of unanswered questions about the work in Texas, and not a single page of data to answer them. In contrast, there are hundreds of pages of raw data in Hokkaido covering the some of the areas I have listed. For an example of has been learned, see the Sengupta paper. (The Hokkaido electrochem. papers have not been translated.) Scott Little has Bockris' textbooks, which he has been studying them on his own, so I am sure he knows what I am talking about here, and I am sure he agrees that he has not begun to tackle the electrochemical aspects of this experiment. He, Mizuno and I were hoping a replication would work "blind," without monitoring the critical parameters. Unfortunately that is not the case, but he made a darn good try. >Moreover, Scott is very open and willing to respond to questions and to >criticisms. He has been interacting with Mizuno via mail and via e-mail for >months. Mizuno has sent him cathodes which worked in Mizuno's lab. They >didn't work in Scott's lab. A common circumstance in electrochemistry and surface catalysis. This is disappointing but it should not surprise anyone. And Scott has prepared cathodes in his lab, >where they did not work, and then sent them to Mizuno, where they *did* >work. Thus both groups know with a high degree of accuracy what the other >is doing . . . Completely incorrect. Scott Little does not have the instruments or the background to achieve significant depth of understanding. He is working blind. He knows that. >***{The more equipment Mizuno has crammed into his lab, the more complex >the electrical environment becomes . . . Yo! Earth to Mitch! The instruments are not all turned on at one time. Why should they be? You cannot run a SEM or quadrupole mass spec while you are busy doing electrochemistry. More to the point, how could they be?!? The fuses would blow. Nobody ever turns on every single analytical instrument, pump, vacuum pump, oscilloscope, mass spec, ultrasonic cleaner, and infrared gadget in a lab at one time. That would be like going into your kitchen and turning on the microwave, the oven, and every electrical appliance in the room for no reason. We are talking about a research laboratory here, not a re-enactment of "The Cat in the Hat." That way, if >Mizuno gets an "over unity" number, Scott will know from the outset that >the problem does not lie in contamination, surface chemistry, the beaker >materials, the lead wires, etc. All problems in this field -- and in all conventional related fields of electrochem and catalysis -- always lie in contamination, surface chemistry, beaker materials, lead wires, etc. These things are always an issue, front and center. >***{You have repeatedly claimed that their discussions of what they are >doing are "over your head." That being the case, you have no basis for >concluding that they are not spouting nonsense much of the time. I did not miss every word and every experiment, for crying out loud. Listen Mitch: I have written several detailed reviews of CF experiments in I.E., and I wrote a description of the TAMU seminar too. Read it, and judge for yourself whether I understood anything. And while you are at it, do your homework, read some electrochem, and stop talking about what *I* know and *I* say. I am not the issue here. The issue is how electrochem experiments are done, and how they have been done for the past 150 years. You apparently have no idea what kinds tools and procedures are used. For example, you do not appreciate the depth or range of conventional knowledge about processes like absorption, the subject of Mizuno's TAMU post-doc paper, and the critical importance of absorption. Ditto film formation, H2 or D2 recombination, and a dozen other subject. I have a 50 page paper by Enyo about absorbtion written in the 1970s, and there are hundreds of others. Needless to say, absorption is a vital issue in CF, and very difficult to control. If you do not measure and characterize absorption (and desorption, and the resulting loading), and you do not know how deep it goes, or how even it is. When you cannot pin down this kind of issue you do not know what is happening to the cathode and you cannot reproduce the electrochemistry. If you want to have some inking of what I am talking about, read: John O'M. Bockris, D. Hodko, and Z. Minevski (Texas A&M U.), "The Mechanism of Deuterium Evolution on Palladium: Relation to Heat Bursts Provoked by Fluxing Deuterium Across the Interface," The Science of Cold Fusion, Proceedings of the II Annual Conference on Cold Fusion, Como, Italy, June 29-July 4, 1991, pp 337-362 John O'M. Bockris, D. Hodko, Z. Minevski (Dept. of Chem., Texas A&M), "Fugacity of Hydrogen Isotopes in Metals: Degradation, Cracking and Cold Fusion," Proc. of Electrochem. Soc., 1992, pp 92-5 (Proc. Symp. Hydrogen Storage Materials, Batteries, Electrochemistry, 1991), pp 258-268 J.O'M. Bockris, R. Sundaresan (on leave from Bhabha Atomic Research Center, India), D. Letts and Z.S. Minevski (Dept. of Chemistry, Texas A&M Univ., Texas), "Triggering and Structural Changes in Cold Fusion Electrodes," presented at ICCF4 For a comprehensive introduction to the subject, go to Amazon.com and buy Reddy & Bockris, "Modern Electrochemistry: Ionics," for $95. Or pick up Comton and Hamnett, "Comprehensive Chemical Kinetics: New Techniques for the Study of Electrodes and Their Reactions," for a mere $421. Here is the table of contents. Item 1 happens to the technique they are using at Hokkaido: 1. In-situ infrared studies of the electrode-electrolyte interface (P.A. Christensen, A. Hamnett). 2. Raman spectroscopic studies of species in situ at electrode surfaces (R.E. Hester). 3. The use of ex-situ UHV techniques to study electrode surfaces (R. Parsons). 4. New hydrodynamic methods (W.J. Albery, C.C. Jones, A.R. Mount). 5. Microelectrodes(J. Robinson). 6. The use of channel electrodes in the investigation of interfacial reaction mechanisms (P.R. Unwin, R.G. Compton). 7. In-situ electrochemical ESR (A.M. Waller, R.G. Compton). 8. Photocurrent spectroscopy (L.M. Peter). 9. Electroreflectance at semiconductors (A. Hamnett, R.L. Lane, P.R. Trevellick, S. Dennison). 10. Ellipsometry (R. Greef). 11. A computing strategy for the on-line accumulation and processing of electrochemical data (J.A. Harrison). Index. Are you some kind of instant expert in these subjects? Is Scott Little?!? I hadn't heard. Here is a related paper on the Internet. This happens to be similar to another experiment underway in Mizuno's lab, unrelated to CF. Why don't you read this and tell us all about it? Enlighten us with astounding instant expertise in electrochem and corrosion! Here: http://iti.acns.nwu.edu/pubs/tr14.html#abstract "Application of Electrochemical Impedance Spectroscopy, Color Visible Imaging, and Infrared Imaging For Non-Destructive Evaluation of Anti-Corrosion Coatings," by John M. Fildes, Ph.D., Penny Chen, M.S., and Xuedong Zhan, Ph.D., BIRL Industrial Research Laboratory, Northwestern University Does that look like a piece of cake? Do you think you or Scott Little could write that paper? I am sure *he* doesn't think so! (Fildes et al, like most other researchers in conventional electrochem, are ultimately trying to *prevent* absorption and loading. In CF they try to achieve the opposite condition: high loading, or maximum accelerated corrosion. To observe the effects of corrosion, Mizuno and others learned long ago how to accelerate corrosion processes, to make damage occur in weeks instead of years. That was the subject of his graduate thesis.) While I am >not saying that is the case, I am saying you would not be able to tell if >it were. Therefore you should consider the possibility that you can follow >what Scott says because Scott knows what he is talking about, and that you >cannot follow Mizuno because he is spouting nonsense much of the time. You mean Ohmori, Mizuno, Akimoto, Azumi, Seo, Enyo and Zhang are spouting nonsense. You seem to forget that Mizuno is not the only author of these papers. And you also mean that I have been studying this subject for five years, and attending conferences, and writing reviews, and translating papers, and I have spent a couple of weeks in some of the world's best electrochem labs, but I do not the slightest idea what the people there were doing. I know nothing at all about the procedures or tools, and the kinds of problems they have encountered over the last 150 years with contamination, reaction rates and all the rest of it. That seems implausible. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 11:12:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10732; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:11:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:11:05 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200001141832.LAA11585 smtp.asu.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:08:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Can anyone top a BAF of 43? Resent-Message-ID: <"yH2Yk1.0.Kd2.1JtVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >BAF stands for "Blowhard Amplification Factor". > >I posted the following 1 line question to {***Mitchell Schwartz***}: ***{The last name is Jones, not Swartz. You need to do something about that memory hole, old gal! (Or old guy, or whatever you are.) --MJ}*** > >"Is that a God given "principle of continuity" you've got there Mitch?" > >Being unable to recognize the tongue-in-cheek nature of my question ***{Incorrect. I recognized full well that the question was probably intended as sarcasm, but I chose to make a more charitable interpretation, for the simple and sufficient reason that it has been several months since I explained the basis of the principle of continuity. In the interim, there have doubtlessly been a number of new people who have signed onto this group, and also a number of others who have forgotten what was posted before. Thus a brief review of the concept seemed in order. --MJ}*** , he >gave a response containing 43 lines, for a BAF (output / input) of 43, >which I hereby claim as the record. ***{If you don't like my style of writing, why not simply skip over my posts? Could it be that you are just another hound dog sitting on a sharp rock and howling because it hurts? --MJ}*** Anyone care to challenge my claim? > >(Sorry vorts, I couldn't resist. I'll try to restrain myself next time). ***{But you will fail. In the end, irrationalists always give in to their inappropriate emotions. That's why they elect liars, criminals, and imbeciles to public office, and it's why we live on a planet that's soaked in blood. --MJ}*** > >--Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 11:12:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02403; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:11:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:11:43 -0800 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:11:35 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Can anyone top a BAF of 43? In-reply-to: <200001141832.LAA11585 smtp.asu.edu> X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200001141911.MAA21771 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4SO0x3.0.Tb.lJtVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:33 AM 1/14/00 -0700, you wrote: >I posted the following 1 line question to {***Mitchell Schwartz***}: > My APOLOGIES!! That's {***Mitchell Jones***}. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 11:41:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15786; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:40:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:40:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114143956.0079e100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:39:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Other Hokkaido U. glow discharge papers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000114094604.0079baa0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000114094058.007c98a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qIoHW1.0.as3.UktVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Excellent points. That's why Scott needs to take his entire >cell--beaker, anode, cathode, stirrer, lid, electrolyte, connecting wires, >etc., with him when THE TWO OF YOU go to Sapporo TOGETHER. --MJ}*** Oh, I don't think that's necessary. There are plenty of people there who speak good English. I think one of Mizuno's seniors grew up partly in the U.S. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 11:48:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19265; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:47:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:47:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000114134346.01d004a4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:43:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000114134008.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DrmQV2.0.xi4.1rtVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:40 PM 1/14/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Little has not attempted to measure a single one of >the critical details or parameters in the electrochemistry, such as OCV, >absorbtion, loading or overpotential. There is no instrumentation in the >cell! That's because I am trying to replicate Mizuno's experiment. >We have no idea what chemical species evolve in his cell, in what >sequence, and what the final products are. That's not exactly correct. See the analyses I made in Run 6 of the 2nd series: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html I have also made a cursory comparison of the x-ray spectra of the W cathode before and after the experiment. I see no sign of the plethora of elements that Mizuno sees on his used cathodes. However, he is using electron excitation (in a SEM) and I am using secondary x-ray excitation (our x-ray tube excited spectrometer). This could make a big difference in the sensitivity to surface layers, making his analysis more sensitive to surface layers. I haven't had time to check that possibility out thoroughly. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 12:01:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24752; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:59:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:59:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114145906.0079a160 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:59:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000114134346.01d004a4 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000114134008.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MgFPY.0.d26.S0uVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >>We have no idea what chemical species evolve in his cell, in what >>sequence, and what the final products are. > >That's not exactly correct. See the analyses I made in Run 6 of the 2nd >series . . . Right, yes. I should have acknowledged that. Given enough time, instruments and practice (and more training, probably -- you can't learn it all from the textbook) I am sure sure you could handle this stuff, but you have not done so yet. That's my point. Mizuno has not done W-CF in depth yet either. It takes years. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 12:10:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28804; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:09:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:09:17 -0800 Message-ID: <387F818B.577B ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:05:31 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: quantum jump References: <387B70D8.3B87 ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EaksU2.0.-17.i9uVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > Taken this way, all it [the principle of continuity] is saying is that when cue ball > >A impinges on 8 ball B at the same angle > >8 ball B will drop into hole C every time. This amounts to nothing more > >than a BIG "SO WHAT?" > > > >Why do we need to take up so much time discussing this in relation to > >the experimental result, which you refuse to discuss (other than to call > >it "silly") if you are NOT using this principle as an argument that > >supposedly invalidates the results of the experiment? Mitchell Jones wrote: (snip) > the principle of continuity does invalidate > *your interpretation* of the result of the experiment, because you have > repeatedly alleged that the experiment supports the conclusion that motion > is discontinuous. It doesn't. At this point, the "interpretation of the result" , mine, yours, Smith's or any else's who is interested in this has not been settled on. The "interpretation" then is unresolved, and that is why I bring it to the attention of this forum. When I first brought it up two months ago, there were no documented studies of the flash unit used in the experiment. However, the recent studies of the flashtube behaviour have shown that the unit is not "strobing" the objects being photographed. Therefore one must conclude that something else is the cause of the observed "gaps" (discontinuities) between succesive recorded positions of the accelerated objects. These discontinuities have been named "Boisvert Gaps" in honor of the person who discovered them, Wilfrid Boisvert.. It has not been determined whether the Boisvert gaps represent a time period T>0 between adjacent recorded object positions. Smith's "interpretation" (theory) is that they do not, that the object remains motionless for the entire duration of time represented by the gap space (d/v). If that "interpretation" is correct, then logically, motion IS discontinuous because the word "motion" means a change of position for the given object, and if the object is standing still for a given period of time, it is NOT in motion, in other words therefore the MOTION DISCONTINUES. If THAT "interpretation" is correct, then the motion of the object must logically be described as DISCONTINUOUS. Even if it were determined that for part of the time represented by the Boisvert gap the object's motion "continued" in some way that the film was not able to record, for the REMAINDER OF THE TIME then, the object was NOT in motion, therefore the motion must still be characterized as DISCONTINUOUS. Quo Erat Demonstratum. > No experiment can disprove any of the > principles upon which experimental science is based. --MJ}*** And no principle can be called a principle if it is defeated by experiment. If you "interpret" your principle to mean that motion must be continuous in all cases even when something is standing still, that is "argumentum ad absurdum". A short addendum about creating things out of "nothing". The Bible does not say that God created the Universe (the Heavens) out of a vacuum where there was no matter or energy. that is not what is meant by "nothing". When you create something, the something you create did not exist before you created it. Therefore, SOMETHING (the thing one creates) DOES NOT EXIST before the act of CREATION, so before the act of creation, the SOMETHING was "nothing", "Nothing" being defined as the opposite or antonym of SOMETHING. Humans, the Bible relates, were "formed" out of "clay" , a mixture of organic and inorganic material, I guess. Clay is "something" and if you are looking for a way to resolve your semantic dilemma, I will agree that God may have created the universe out of "clay". The Bible does not say. I never alleged that it might have been the "vacuum" you call "nothing". The vacuum isn't "nothing" anyway, if one can get energy out of it. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 13:02:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13491; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:59:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:59:48 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000114134008.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:54:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"0QyY43.0.jI3.3vuVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones is telling us that the science of electrochemistry does not >exist. ***{Nope. I'm saying that a man who admits that he does not understand much of what another man says is not in a position to judge whether that other person is spouting nonsense or pearls of wisdom. I would add that, by and large, people who know what the hell they are talking about are able to adjust their presentations to the requirements of the listener, while those who seek to hide their ineptitude in a fog cannot. Thus it is an open question whether your Japanese friends have a better understanding of this experiment than Scott, despite what you say. The only way the question will ever get settled one way or the other will be by reasoning that focuses on the substantive details of the experiment and the instrumentation, rather than on the mental attributes of the experimenters. --MJ}*** There are whole libraries full of books describing the atomic & >molecular mechanisms of hydrogen recombination on cathode surfaces, >overpotential and thousands of other details, there are dozens of >textbooks, professional publications, and papers available on Internet, but >since he has never heard of this stuff, none of it matters. ***{Nope. I know for a fact that most of it doesn't matter. That's because the failure of Scott to replicate, when finally explained, will draw upon a tiny subset of the total number of concepts that are discussed in those "libraries full of books," and the only way you or I will ever figure out which, is by focusing on the substantive details of these two experiments, rather than on ill-informed opinions about the contents of the experimenters' skulls. --MJ}*** He writes: > >>***{Scott has photos and descriptions of his setup posted on the web. Any >>technically knowledgeable person can easily comprehend what he is doing. > >This is pure nonsense. Little has not attempted to measure a single one of >the critical details or parameters in the electrochemistry, such as OCV, >absorbtion, loading or overpotential. There is no instrumentation in the >cell! ***{Yup. As I said, maybe Mizuno's result is an artifact produced by his instrumentation. Has he ever gotten an "over unity" result when running with a bare-bones setup like the one employed by Scott? --MJ}*** We have no idea what chemical species evolve in his cell, in what >sequence, and what the final products are. (Electrochemical reactions >products often change, and they can fluctuate during a reaction, and the >speed of the reaction will change too -- the "rate determining factors" -- >depending on complex parameters such as voltage, geometry, temperature, >etc.) Essentially, we are blind to what is happening on the electrode >surface in Texas. There are HUNDREDS of unanswered questions about the work >in Texas, and not a single page of data to answer them. In contrast, there >are hundreds of pages of raw data in Hokkaido covering the some of the >areas I have listed. ***{Yup. The strength of Scott's design is its simplicity. By removing the potential corrupting influences of 10,000 instruments, he is able to test for one thing only: whether the cell is producing more energy than it is using. --MJ}*** For an example of has been learned, see the Sengupta >paper. (The Hokkaido electrochem. papers have not been translated.) > >Scott Little has Bockris' textbooks, which he has been studying them on his >own, so I am sure he knows what I am talking about here, and I am sure he >agrees that he has not begun to tackle the electrochemical aspects of this >experiment. He, Mizuno and I were hoping a replication would work "blind," >without monitoring the critical parameters. Unfortunately that is not the >case, but he made a darn good try. ***{If you can't get the effect unless you stuff the cell full of irrelevant probes, there is no effect. --MJ}*** > > >>Moreover, Scott is very open and willing to respond to questions and to >>criticisms. He has been interacting with Mizuno via mail and via e-mail for >>months. Mizuno has sent him cathodes which worked in Mizuno's lab. They >>didn't work in Scott's lab. > >A common circumstance in electrochemistry and surface catalysis. This is >disappointing but it should not surprise anyone. ***{I repeat: if you can't get this effect unless a superabundance of irrelevant instruments are in place in the cell, then there is no effect. The only purpose of measuring surface chemistry and various other variables, is to figure out how to make the bare-bones setup work. After that has been done, you should be able to remove the redundant instrumentation and still see the effect. Therefore, to repeat: has Mizuno ever seen this effect in a bare-bones setup such as Scott's, where redundant instruments are not attached to the cell? --MJ}*** > > > And Scott has prepared cathodes in his lab, >>where they did not work, and then sent them to Mizuno, where they *did* >>work. Thus both groups know with a high degree of accuracy what the other >>is doing . . . > >Completely incorrect. Scott Little does not have the instruments or the >background to achieve significant depth of understanding. He is working >blind. He knows that. ***{I repeat: the only purpose in measuring a multitude of variables is to determine how to make the bare bones setup work. If, as you imply, Mizuno has made those measurements, then he should be able to give Scott precise instructions regarding power settings, placement of temperature probes, type of beaker to use, characteristics of the cathode and the anode, electrolyte molarity, etc., and, if Scott does a run in accordance with those instructions, then he ought to see the effect. If he doesn't, then the implication is that Mizuno doesn't know how to achieve it either--which means: there may not be an effect. --MJ}*** > > > >>***{The more equipment Mizuno has crammed into his lab, the more complex >>the electrical environment becomes . . . > >Yo! Earth to Mitch! The instruments are not all turned on at one time. ***{I didn't say they were. Nevertheless, to repeat: can Mizuno get the effect when using a bare-bones setup such as Scott's? If he can, then he should be able to tell Scott how to do it. And if he can't, then there is no reason to believe the effect is real. --MJ}*** Why >should they be? You cannot run a SEM or quadrupole mass spec while you are >busy doing electrochemistry. More to the point, how could they be?!? The >fuses would blow. Nobody ever turns on every single analytical instrument, >pump, vacuum pump, oscilloscope, mass spec, ultrasonic cleaner, and >infrared gadget in a lab at one time. That would be like going into your >kitchen and turning on the microwave, the oven, and every electrical >appliance in the room for no reason. We are talking about a research >laboratory here, not a re-enactment of "The Cat in the Hat." ***{Irrelevant. If Mizuno cannot get the effect in a bare-bones setup, there is no reason to believe that there *is* an effect. --MJ}*** > > >That way, if >>Mizuno gets an "over unity" number, Scott will know from the outset that >>the problem does not lie in contamination, surface chemistry, the beaker >>materials, the lead wires, etc. > >All problems in this field -- and in all conventional related fields of >electrochem and catalysis -- always lie in contamination, surface >chemistry, beaker materials, lead wires, etc. These things are always an >issue, front and center. ***{That only explains failure to replicate if the effect is real. But if Mizuno can get it with a bare bones setup, then he ought to be able to tell Scott how to do the same thing. Yet he can't. That raises the possibility in my mind that Mizuno can't get the effect himself, in a bare bones setup. If he can't, there is no reason to believe the effect is real. --MJ}*** > > >>***{You have repeatedly claimed that their discussions of what they are >>doing are "over your head." That being the case, you have no basis for >>concluding that they are not spouting nonsense much of the time. > >I did not miss every word and every experiment, for crying out loud. Listen >Mitch: I have written several detailed reviews of CF experiments in I.E., >and I wrote a description of the TAMU seminar too. Read it, and judge for >yourself whether I understood anything. And while you are at it, do your >homework, read some electrochem, and stop talking about what *I* know and >*I* say. I am not the issue here. ***{You opened the door to speculations about the contents of your skull when you began speculating about the contents of Scott's and Mizuno's skulls. In any case, this is all irrelevant to the substantive issue, which is whether Mizuno's "over unity" result is real or the result of error. Like it or not, that question cannot be answered by speculation about the contents of anyone's skull. --MJ}*** The issue is how electrochem experiments >are done, and how they have been done for the past 150 years. You >apparently have no idea what kinds tools and procedures are used. For >example, you do not appreciate the depth or range of conventional knowledge >about processes like absorption, the subject of Mizuno's TAMU post-doc >paper, and the critical importance of absorption. ***{How would you know? If your statements about Mizuno are based on the same kind of wishful thinking as your statements about me, then the prospects of there being a real effect here are very dim indeed. --MJ}*** [continued, seemingly endless, totally irrelevant speculations about mental contents snipped] > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 13:06:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16500; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:04:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:04:42 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:14:40 -0500 Message-ID: <20000114211440781.AAA260 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"2E5fR2.0.k14.fzuVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Two things come to mind in this discussion. First of all, if neither Scott nor Mizuno have been able to determine thus far the differences in their protocols, then there is an additional parameter/s about the Mizuno protocol that is explaining the excess heat. The stirring of the electrolyte is something that may be important here for one or more reasons. If the reaction is caused because the stirring in the Mizuno cell is less than Scott's, then perhaps it is because there are periods of time whereby portions of the cathode are dry for a longer time. This may result in longer and more powerful arcs, as well as a hotter spot on the cathode prior to the arcing. On the other hand, if the stirring is more vigorous in the Mizuno cell, this may result in a colder cathode temperature, and open up the possiblity of a thermally driven cavitation bubble collapse mechanism similar to what Russ George has so adequately documented. Fred Sparber has suggested measuring and analyzing the light output of the two cells to look for differences, and I have suggested finding out what the spin rate of the stirring mechanism is for the Mizuno cell. The actual volume and shape of the stirring pellet would be factors in the hydrodynamics as well, and should match the one in Scott's cell. This is what I would consider to be a gross difference in the protocol, if they are indeed different. As much of a difference, say, as putting a cap on the cell or not putting a cap on the cell. In other words, it is, in my opinion, too early for the necessity of an actual visit. As for the differences in the examination of the cell surfaces for the observation of deformations, etc., I note that the deformations recorded by Ohmori are approximately 10 um in diameter, and 15 um in length. If Scott's methods cannot reach that resolution then he should have the examinations performed elsewhere. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 13:16:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23680; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:14:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:14:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114161406.0079e300 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:14:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000114134008.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"81oPu3.0.on5.07vVu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Yup. As I said, maybe Mizuno's result is an artifact produced by his >instrumentation. Has he ever gotten an "over unity" result when running >with a bare-bones setup like the one employed by Scott? --MJ}*** Yes, he & Ohmori have run with a power meter and mercury thermometers alone, as described in the I.E. article, and as I said here many times. You should know that. You should have read the article or reviewed the messages here. I should have to spoon feed you every single detail. Honestly, you are as bad as Dick Blue: forever pontificating about experiments you know nothing about. Forever demanding to be spoon fed information which is already available. Forever asking the same questions and forgetting the answers. I'll bet you have not read a single peer-reviewed formal paper on CF! It is a stupid waste of time trying to communicate with people like you. I wouldn't even bother doing it, except that it is good practice writing for the lowest common denominator of people who know zip about electrochem and basic laboratory technique. Fortunately, I can turn the filters off and on easily with this program, so on they go. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 13:18:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22771; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:16:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:16:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114161628.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:16:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <20000114211440781.AAA260 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rOGgg.0.jZ5.09vVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >Two things come to mind in this discussion. First of all, if neither Scott >nor Mizuno have been able to determine thus far the differences in their >protocols, then there is an additional parameter/s about the Mizuno protocol >that is explaining the excess heat. Probably lots of parameters. The stirring of the electrolyte is >something that may be important here for one or more reasons. I doubt it. That has not been a factor in other CF experiments, as far as I know. I'll grant we do not know for sure this *is* CF. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 13:35:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28238; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:32:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:32:48 -0800 Message-ID: <387EE8C2.E975354E ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 01:13:39 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 14, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oq6H91.0.3v6._NvVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's New wrote: > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 14 Jan 00 Washington, DC > > 1. CLIMATE WARS: IN CASE YOU HADN'T NOTICED, IT'S GETTING WARMER. > A report released yesterday by the National Research Council > concludes that a global surface warming trend is "undoubtedly > real," and it's accelerating. The panel was specifically charged > with reconciling trends of surface temperatures with those in the > lower to mid-troposphere. Global warming skeptics used to crow > over results from satellite and balloon observations showing a > slight cooling of the upper atmosphere (WN 1 May 98), but recent > corrections have turned that into a slight warming. Although the > troposphere has warmed less, the panel bluntly states that: "The > disparity in no way invalidates the conclusion that the surface > temperature has been rising." The report does not attempt to > explain the reasons for the warming. CBS broke an embargo on the > release of the report, which had the effect of muting coverage. > > 2. NIF REVIEW: "NO ONE GETS A PASSING GRADE ON MANAGEMENT." The > National Ignition Facility is now projected to overrun its $1.2B > budget by $400M, and to miss its scheduled 2003 completion date > by two years. A DOE Task Force, headed by John McTague, former > Ford VP and White House science advisor, issued an interim report > this week slamming the DOE Office of Defense Programs, Lawrence > Livermore labs, and the University of California. No one knew > who was responsible for what. But the panel cautions against too > much monkeying around with the lab culture (WN 24 Dec 99): "There > a real danger that in addressing this issue, duplicative and > paralyzing oversight mechanisms may be introduced." > > 3. STAR WARS: PENTAGON PLAYS DOWN "SUCCESSFUL" TEST. Even as the > Pentagon prepares for a critical test of its ballistic missile > defense next week, it is backing away from the claims made for an > earlier test, according to a story in today's New York Times. The > hit-to-kill vehicle had the wrong star map and was wandering lost > when its IR sensors picked up a bright object. It turned out not > to be the warhead, but a decoy in the vicinity of the fainter > warhead. Without the decoy serving as a beacon, critics argue, > the kill vehicle would never have found the warhead. Next week's > test may be critical to President Clinton's decision on > deployment, which was promised for this summer (WN 26 Nov 99). > > 4. MIR: YET ANOTHER BAILOUT PLAN FOR THE DIEHARD SPACECRAFT? Who > would invest in a wobbly space station that leaks?, WN asked last > June (WN 4 Jun 99). A "British billionaire" had convinced the > Russians that he could round up investors willing to put up $100M > each to get a piece of the action. It was a scam. Then it was a > group of US entrepreneurs proposing to use a 7-kilometer tether > to boost Mir (WN 22 Oct 99). That died too. This week, a press > report said "Golden Apple" was ready to put up $20M to rescue the > abandoned craft. It turned out to be an offshore investment firm > named Gold & Apel. I'm trying to reach them about this bridge. > > THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's > and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 14:22:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19306; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:21:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:21:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000114161406.0079e300 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000114134008.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113181751.0079b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113151514.007a1920 pop.mindspring.com> <004e01bf5df2$05722a20$9b441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.1.32.20000111151433.017e102c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112094347.007a0ac0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000113114617.0079b570 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:18:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Rp6_M2.0.aj4.F5wVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{Yup. As I said, maybe Mizuno's result is an artifact produced by his >>instrumentation. Has he ever gotten an "over unity" result when running >>with a bare-bones setup like the one employed by Scott? --MJ}*** > >Yes, he & Ohmori have run with a power meter and mercury thermometers >alone, as described in the I.E. article, and as I said here many times. You >should know that. You should have read the article or reviewed the messages >here. ***{I have, and I have also read, and written an extensive review of, the earlier "boiled lightning article." In addition, I have read all of the messages that have appeared on that subject in this group, plus lots of material from other sources. None of those messages or other material answers the question that I asked--to wit: has Mizuno done run like Scott's, with nothing running in the electrical environment other than the bare minimum that is required to produce the "over unity" effect? The article in IE #27 does not mention two devices in the electrical environment that were present, and were on: the cooling fan, and the stirrer. Thus it is quite reasonable to suppose that there may have been others. In addition, the article mentions an REM neutron counter that was also present and in use at the time of the run, which I do not believe Scott is using. Thus the article gives no indication whatsoever regarding whether Mizuno has actually done a run himself using Scott's configuration, with no associated redundant instrumentation. I find it entirely plausible that an experimenter who sincerely believes that his "over unity" result is real might suggest that others run a simplified version of his own design, expecting that it would produce the same effect. Hence I asked the question very explicitly, to see if you knew the answer. And, since you refer me to an article that I have already read and which does not address the issue, I find myself even more suspicious that Mizuno has not really done a run using Scott's configuration. --MJ}*** I should have to spoon feed you every single detail. Honestly, you >are as bad as Dick Blue: forever pontificating about experiments you know >nothing about. Forever demanding to be spoon fed information which is >already available. Forever asking the same questions and forgetting the >answers. I'll bet you have not read a single peer-reviewed formal paper on >CF! It is a stupid waste of time trying to communicate with people like >you. I wouldn't even bother doing it, except that it is good practice >writing for the lowest common denominator of people who know zip about >electrochem and basic laboratory technique. ***{More pejorative speculations about the contents of other people's heads. No surprise there, since you obviously haven't a snowball's chance in hell of defending your position on the merits. --MJ}*** > >Fortunately, I can turn the filters off and on easily with this program, so >on they go. ***{You can run, but you can't hide. :-) --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 14:47:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28311; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:45:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:45:20 -0800 Message-ID: <005601bf5ee1$f52999a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000114161628.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:51:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"j3Uu51.0.Hw6.0SwVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here are some thoughts about the Mizuno style experiments. If the cathode is more or less continuously disintergrating, how could initial cathode surface conditions make much difference? Perhaps we should be paying more attention to parameters of the solution such as impurities, pH, ORP, and possible nanometer sized suspended particles which are present in some water supplies. We really don't know if this experiment is metal lattice style CF or K catalyzed plasma/solution Mills style hydrino overunity. What is the source and treatment of Mizuno's water? Could he send enough water and chemicals to Scott for a couple of experiments? Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 14:58:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31652; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:55:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:55:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114175524.0079be20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:55:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <005601bf5ee1$f52999a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000114161628.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eKtaf.0.Uk7.wbwVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: >Here are some thoughts about the Mizuno style experiments. >If the cathode is more or less continuously disintergrating, >how could initial cathode surface conditions make much difference? Well, the initial conditions are bound to change, for sure. CF usually causes rapid wear and tear. John Dash had a Ti cathode disintegrate too. I think it is more a case of conditions arising while electrolysis occurs. I think these extreme conditions cause CF and disintegration at the same time. The conditions arise and then fade away after electrolysis turns on, which is why heat after death asymptotically fades. That's speculation, obviously. When making a practical energy device, it might be tough to avoid premature destruction of the metal lattice. That will probably be the limiting factor for the device lifetime. Certainly not the fuel capacity. >What is the source and treatment of Mizuno's water? >Could he send enough water and chemicals to Scott >for a couple of experiments? Maybe, but a lot can happen when you leave things in bottles. Mizuno and other electrochemists I have watch prepare the electrolyte and do the final cleaning of the cathode just before they start the test. The water for electrolyte and to wash the hardware comes out of a purifying machine. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 15:04:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02772; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:02:52 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000114180220.0079be70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:02:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000114175524.0079be20 pop.mindspring.com> References: <005601bf5ee1$f52999a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <3.0.6.32.20000114161628.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"45OoP3.0.9h.SiwVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >time. The conditions arise and then fade away after electrolysis turns on, >which is why heat after death asymptotically fades. Meant "off." Electrolysis turns off, the conditions fade. With the glow discharge I do not think anyone has seen measurable heat after death. There may not be any. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 18:41:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11500; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:39:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:39:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005601bf5ee1$f52999a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000114161628.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:35:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"aQZ903.0.cp2.otzVu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here are some thoughts about the Mizuno style experiments. >If the cathode is more or less continuously disintergrating, >how could initial cathode surface conditions make much difference? >Perhaps we should be paying more attention to parameters >of the solution such as impurities, pH, ORP, and possible >nanometer sized suspended particles which are present >in some water supplies. We really don't know if this >experiment is metal lattice style CF or K catalyzed >plasma/solution Mills style hydrino overunity. >What is the source and treatment of Mizuno's water? >Could he send enough water and chemicals to Scott >for a couple of experiments? ***{Or, even better, send the whole cell: beaker, lid, anode and cathode, lead wires, electrolyte, and the stirrer--*after* Mizuno tests the thing and declares that it is "over unity," of course! (And, just in case the mixed electrolyte might deteriorate in transit, send some unmixed, pre-weighed components along as well, so Scott could just dump a bag of crystals in a bag of water, pour it in the beaker, and start running. The best plan, of course, is the one mentioned earlier: Scott packs up his cell, lid, anode and cathode, stirrer, etc., and heads to Sapporo. Once there, Mizuno can do a run, and, if it isn't "over unity," they can change things out one at a time. Remove Scott's stirrer, and substitute Mizuno's stirrer. Then remove Scott's electrolyte, and substitute Mizuno's electrolyte. Then remove Scott's beaker, and substitute Mizuno's beaker. Etc. Eventually, and rather quickly, I'll bet, they would unravel this conundrum. --MJ}*** >Regards, >George Holz george varisys.com >Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East >Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 08:22:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31366; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:20:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:20:10 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:30:32 -0500 Message-ID: <20000115163032500.AAA276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"0v17u1.0.0g7.wu9Wu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, I recall someone saying recently on Vortex that they were purchasing or planning to purchase an EV1 from GM. If you haven't already ordered it, you might want to do so quickly. I read a couple of days ago in the local paper that GM had stopped producing the electric car because it competed with the hybrid vehicle line that they were offering. GM says says that they still have some EV1 models in stock, so it is still possible to get one. It may even gain collector value over the years, who knows. When I first read about this, I passed it off as just another example of a large corporation acting in its own self interests, but then I remembered the business about California passing legislation disallowing any auto manufacturer access to the Californian market if they didn't allow what I thought was a "zero pollution" alternative vehicle. Have the hybrids managed to fit this description either legally or in reality, or did I misinterpret the Californian legislation. Anybody have better details? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 09:34:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21640; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:33:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:33:44 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01bf5f7e$8bbe5d50$484984a9 music> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000114161628.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000114175524.0079be20@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:32:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"I10lC.0.2I5.uzAWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Maybe, but a lot can happen when you leave things in bottles. Mizuno and > other electrochemists I have watch prepare the electrolyte and do the final > cleaning of the cathode just before they start the test. The water for > electrolyte and to wash the hardware comes out of a purifying machine. - It is certainly true that storing or shipping the electrolyte could cause changes, but I still feel that the starting water source may be important. The success of other labs close to Mizuno which probably share the same water supply is suggestive, as is Scott's complete failure to replicate. What does Mizuno's water purifying machine actually do to clean the water? Perhaps Mitchell Jones suggestion for Scott to send some of his equipment and supplies to Mizuno for testing would be productive. Since cathodes have been shared without changing results, sharing the water and chemicals seems like a possible next logical step. - George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 10:53:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16387; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:51:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:51:58 -0800 Message-ID: <002301bf5f91$e253c2a0$d4451d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 and OOP Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:50:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"KSjOn.0.v_3.D7CWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz's, Optimum Operating Point (OOP) seems to apply here. The "OU"results from using a 200 watt immersion heater with ~ 3.0 watts/cm^2 (the ou coffee cup heater) experiments only lasted about Two Minutes or so, indicating that there is a time-temperature "Window" for the OU effects to occur. IOW, blasting the the thing for long periods is a waste of energy and time. One might consider a "Pulse" form of applying power, thus making a Pulsed Optimum Operating Point (POOP). Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 11:31:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29658; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:30:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:30:01 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 and OOP Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 14:40:22 -0500 Message-ID: <20000115194022375.AAA259 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"sjTgl2.0.KF7.ugCWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >One might consider a "Pulse" form of applying power, thus making a >Pulsed Optimum Operating Point (POOP). > >Regards, Frederick Could we somehow engineer a fan into this, too? ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 11:36:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31442; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:34:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:34:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3880C9DD.4C64 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:26:21 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Continuity vs. Discontinuity -] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"fVfKe2.0.8h7.9lCWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Message-ID: <3880C819.22FB ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:18:50 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Continuity vs. Discontinuity - References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >> As for your repeated demands for an experimental test of the > >> principle of continuity, the very idea is absurd: you can't use an > >> experiment to prove that the experiment itself may not have ever happened! > >> The only question is: why can't you get that through your thick skull? "Jim Ostrowski" wrote: > > > >The point of the experiment was to find out if motion is discontinuous. > >The photographs resulting from the experiments show objects disappearing > >from one location and re-appearing in another one. Does your principle > >deny the possibility that the objects can actually "dissapear" into some > >unknown or little understood state of being (such as say "hyperspace") > >because it equates THAT state of being with the concept of "nothing"? Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{Either the entity, or its parts, *must* track continuously through > three dimensional space. If, by "hyperspace," you refer to some condition > such as shrinkage of the object, so that it merely *seems* to disappear, > then, no, that is not prohibited. But if you mean that the tracks do not > merely seem to end, but that they actually *do* end, that is utterly > impossible. "Jim Ostrowski" writes: If the small nail of http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html , and the pellets of http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html were NOT standing still momentarily and "posing" for the camera, then that could only mean one of three things, I think: 1. The flash used to illuminate the objects was intermittant and discontinuous. (this would be "anomalous" discontinuous behaviour of the flash). 2. The film used to record the light coming from the objects was responding discontinuously. (that would be anomalous, discontininuous behaviour of the chemical processes in the film). 3. The objects themselves "posed" (became immobilized) mid flight. (anomalous, discontinuous motion of the objects). Possibility 1 has been eliminated, leaving us with 2 and 3, unless there is some other possibility that no one has thought of, yet. Except, perhaps, your idea below: > Likewise, things can seem to appear out of nothing, as when > something that was microscopically small expands and becomes visible, but > things cannot actually appear out of nothing. Of all the science fiction concepts I have ever seen in the movies, shrinking large objects to microscopic size or doing the reverse seems the "most" impossible. For something like that to occurr, actual atoms and molecules would have proportionally shrink, or grow, both in size and density, and thereby violate the principle of conservation of mass and energy. The principle of conservation of mass and energy is widely accepted. The principle of continuity, on the other hand only seems to have gained acceptance in YOUR mind, because violating this principle would collapse the "whole" "structure of human knowledge". I say that the "structure" of human knowledge is NOT a "whole" thing, it is as frail, incomplete, and tenuous a thing as can possibly be properly called a "structure", to start with. Observed "anomalies" of any kind can upset it, because your principle assumes that knowledge is somehow complete and can "stand up" to explain everything that is observed, assured by the "knowledge" that one's sensory mechanisms are recording things accurately. Obviously this is demonstratedly not so in lots of different cases, especially where complicated chemical reactions involved in consciousness is concerned, one drop of LSD can totally obliterate someone's "structure of knowledge" or, what I like to call one's "reality map". If the "structure of human knowledge" had complete integrity (which it doesn't) one could readily could explain the observed phenomena of ghosts, poltergiests, ufo's, clairvoyance, and intermittant "over unity" Cold Fusion experiment results. Whether "ghosts" or "alien encounters" for example are merely "visions" appearing in the witness's mind (hallucinations) or are actual things that appear in our "reality" out of some unknown and unseen "alteraate" reality is not yet deterimined. But very certainly, whatever the explanation , the apparitions "collapse" the so-called "structure of knowledge" for the humans that such apparitions occur to. > Therefore if by "hyperspace" you do not mean some difficult to observe > realm in three dimensional space, but a realm outside of three dimensional > space, that is prohibited. The reason is that such a possibility would > demolish the entire structure of human knowledge. If, for example, you > think you see your right hand, you may be mistaken: the sensations which > you think are coming from the world may, in fact, begin in your brain > itself, where they are entering from a parallel universe. We may well be mistaken about such things, and were it not for the fact that most ordinary observations such as you describe are integrated and self consistent MOST OF THE TIME, we could certainly doubt EVERYTHING, including the idea that you, Mitchell are not merely an electro - mechanical function of my computer, which MIGHT have the ability to converse with me in ascii. I remember Arthur Clarke's definition of intelligence where he said if one was communicating with a computer program, and in doing so one could not determine if the responses came from a machine or another human being, then if it actually were a machine, that machine was displaying "intelligent and conscious" behaviour. I even experimented around with such programming myself, using the psychiatric technique called "active listening" to select responses to ascii sentences typed into the input functions of the program. It would take parts of the input, which the program divided into subject, predicate and verb, and randomly feed back either a question or statement containing an element of the input sentence. Now if one was limited to just 3 or 4 go arounds or sentence exchanges with the computer, one could have easily assumed that there was another human being at the "other end". After a while though, one detects what is going on. But the point is that given enough time and a complex enough program, indeed, you would have no way of knowing whether or not you were just talking to my computer, and NOT ME, really. In fact, given what I've just told you about my computer programming experience, that very thing could be going on right now, couldn't it, as far as your "structure" of human knowledge is concerned? And if you found out at some later time that the lines you are reading at this very moment were produced by a computer program, what would THAT do to your "structure"? Your structure would be "collapsed", wouldn't it? All along you maybe thought that I was a real human being, sitting at my little desk responding to your messages, arguing with you in my machine like, inflexible way, not getting your point, hurling perjoratives at you, all because that's the way somebody "programmed" the machine you are corresponding with.... Think about it, and try to AVOID the collapse of your "human" knowledge. I highly reccomend that you rent the movie "The Matrix". It makes my point perfectly clear. Of course, accepting reccomendations programmed into computers would mean that you are being "programmed" too. So maybe you _shouldn't_ see that movie. Bye for now. "Jim Ostrowski" 1010 Netscape: send 1020 Netscape: close 1030 Netscape: exit 1040 Windows: MSDOS prompt C:\ command.com CD\ programs chain: logoff Terminate jimostr.exe done From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 17:09:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10114; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:07:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:07:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000115190836.006ff2dc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:08:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <001b01bf5f7e$8bbe5d50$484984a9 music> References: <3.0.6.32.20000114161628.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000114175524.0079be20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"15vc_.0.vT2.SdHWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:32 PM 1/15/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >Since cathodes have been shared without >changing results, sharing the water and chemicals seems like a possible >next logical step. Good point, George. I think I will attempt to engage Mizuno in such an exchange program immediately. I can't go over there right away anyway so we might as well use the present time wisely. I have also been thinking that I would send them one of my Fluke 87 DVM's, which measures the average cell current correctly* and get them to compare its readings to the current meter(s) they are using. I also agree with your point about the initial surface condition of the cathode. The deliberate scratches, for example, are probably gone within the first 5 minutes, and the runs are usually either 15 minutes or 30 minutes long. I do not recall seeing any tendency in their results for the excess heat to occur mainly at the start of the run. Jed? *Actually, I am assuming that the reading is correct because it matches the value obtained by the Clarke-Hess power analyzer and, when multiplied by the cell voltage, the resulting electrical power matches closely with the heat output of the cell as measured by my calorimeter. Of course, it still could be wrong. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 19:11:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14462; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:08:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:08:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000115220441.007fc390 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:04:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000112081800.01dfb9a0 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aIQ-B3.0.uX3.6PJWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:18 AM 1/12/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 01:56 AM 1/12/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> Given the discussions recently, confirming what was >>posted over the last several years regarding the importance >>of full cooling curves, system response curves, controls >>(joule and chemical), and the precise model, did not >>see those curves, controls, etc. at that web URL. > >Recall that this style of calorimetry is based upon two major heat paths: >(1) heat of vaporization, and (2) heat loss thru the walls. The >measurement part of the run is limited to the period when the cell is >boiling. A full cooling curve is not required to determine the heat loss >rate for the boiling cell. The single heat-loss value required is >determined by observing the initial slope of the cooling curve. I didn't >include the raw data or the curve in the web report because it wasn't very >interesting. Good job in what you have done. Here are some further comments. A cooling curve + controls are required to fully and completely evaluate any system, and this includes full measurement of its system response - to see if one's model and calibrations are correct. If you were serious, it would seem that you would measure them, as the system impulse (or step) function response is fundamental. The cooling curves and controls are also very interesting since they determine if one's calorimeter and expt are useful, as well as revealing exactly to what degree the calorimeter has merit in that setup. =================================================== >There are no "controls" in the usual sense for this style of calorimetry. >The heat loss thru vaporization is determined by weighing the cell before >and after the run and calculating the heat required to evaporate that much >water. This may be insufficient since it is becoming increasingly possible that your model may not be correct or include all modes of heat and mass transfer and/or calibration at all appropriate times. =================================================== >>Also was there any attempt at finding an optimal operating >>point by varying the input power and carefully measuring >>the actual output (compared to controls, joule and other >>material)? > >No, I am still trying to replicate the work of Mizuno and Ohmori. After I >see some sign of excess heat using operating conditions that mimic theirs >as closely as possible, I will begin optimizing the phenomenon. As we have shown you may be unlikely to find the conditions of excess heat unless you look carefully and closely, and after you measure your noise levels quantitatively over time. The failure rate of these systems is especially high for those who poise their systems blindly in the operating-phase-space of their system. Since you champion "proving" LENR/CF as "wrong", perhaps your method seems reasonable to you since it does have the highest likelihood to fail. However, it is recommended again that you make some measurements at different input electrical powers, and systematically examine that variable (and some of the others) and at the lowest heat loss [Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999)]. =================================================== It is again suggested that one does basic controls, clear calorimetric models, with close attention to ystem responses, cooling curves, noise, heat and mass transfer, degree of heat loss, and optimal operating point (including note that the peak may be one-sided in some systems such as you may be using). Given that you have been uninterested in the past and continue to be uninterested as you state above, Scott, no further effort will be made to convince you. However, serious scientists and engineers of LENR/CF should take note and consider to incorporate the above in their more serious and methodical experiments. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 19:14:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15720; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:12:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:12:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000115220819.007fd4c0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:08:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 and OOP In-Reply-To: <002301bf5f91$e253c2a0$d4451d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CrTJj.0.Yr3.7SJWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:50 AM 1/15/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Mitchell Swartz's, Optimum Operating Point (OOP) seems to apply here. > >The "OU"results from using a 200 watt immersion heater with ~ 3.0 watts/cm^2 >(the ou coffee cup heater) experiments only lasted about Two Minutes or so, indicating >that there is a time-temperature "Window" for the OU effects to occur. > >IOW, blasting the the thing for long periods is a waste of energy and time. > >One might consider a "Pulse" form of applying power, thus making a >Pulsed Optimum Operating Point (POOP). > >Regards, Frederick First, IMO it is doubtful the immersion heater involves cold fusion, and there is no evidence it involves excess heat unless calibrations and cooling curves, noise measurements, etc. are done. Second, furthermore, without the use of a multiring calorimetric system to demonstrate excess energy as well as excess power over a short time, it is more likely purported timeWindow-Sparber-POOP is an artifact which will be revealed in more careful measurements. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 21:02:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17443; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:59:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:59:54 -0800 From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <38815129.7426 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:03:37 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Dr. Julian Schwinger included under "Geniuses, Crackpots and a Grand Unified Theory" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oftHO1.0.OG4.A1LWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan 14, 2000 Vortex, I thought someone would pick up on a New York Times article that appeared January 4, 2000 in the Science section. I was in no condition to post it then. The entire article can be accessed at the NY Times website with an extended search under Julian Schwinger. The article by James Glanz, presumably on the staff, writes of Physicists who become known to the public conciousness. They attract far out theories by contributors who are equally far out. And each of the scientists have files for these "nut" cases. Then Ganz goes on to write: "Wild theorizing is not limited to people with no science background, said Dr. Benjamin Bederson, a physicist at New York University. "Saddest of crackpot theories," said Dr.ederson, "come from superannuated, formerly fine scientists who late in their careers get bored doing bread-and-butter stuff" A classic example, he said, was the renowned physicist Dr. Julian Schwinger, who in old age believed he had found a scientific explanation for cold fusion, a scheme for producing energy that was soon shown to have no basis in reality." The original article that appeared in the paper, I thought, did not distinguish the late Julian schwinger as having a doctorate. And both copies give no mention of him being a Nobel Laureate. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 22:04:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA28696; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:02:40 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Dr. Julian Schwinger included under "Geniuses, Crackpots and a Grand Unified Theory" Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:13:04 -0500 Message-ID: <20000116061304000.AAA278 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3uXLF.0.I07.0yLWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Aki! Dr. Schwinger was pretty far ahead of the game with cavitation, too. It's not right for idiots like Glanz to drag his name through the mud like that. The same has happened to Bockris as well. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 23:42:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA18738; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:40:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:40:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000116014151.006fbb94 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:41:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000115220441.007fc390 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000112081800.01dfb9a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"v00mo3.0.ha4.0ONWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:04 PM 1/15/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Given that you have been uninterested in the past and continue to be >uninterested as you state above, Scott, no further effort will >be made to convince you. Hallelujah! Your mercy will long be remembered. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 01:16:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA29488; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:15:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:15:05 -0800 Message-ID: <005001bf600a$76139ec0$d4451d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 OOP Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 02:13:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0xOr41.0.gC7.PmOWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: [Snip rhetoric regarding "no ou" from immersion heaters in an aqueous electrolyte] One must appreciate the physics of the solid-liquid-vapor interface of a heated metal surface. In the cold condition, the electrical double layer (Stern-Guoy) allows alignment of the ions in the water to be attracted to the metal surface,setting up an electrical potential. When the metal of the immersion heater is heated to a temperature such that the double layer is disrupted, (about 4 watts/cm^2) oscillatory effects set in causing the formation and collapse of nanobubbles and setting up sound. If the power input is maintained at the same rate a layer of steam "insulates" the metal surface from the liquid bulk, and the double layer is lost. If the input power is "pulsed" by applying power of several seconds duration, then cutting the power long enough for the double layer to re-form you have created a situation that embraces the effects of F&P cell, Ceti Beads, Griggs Pump, M&O experiments, and other ou effects due to electrokinetic/surface effects etc. IOW, keeping the power input constant is a waste of energy, and the OOP-ou "window" is lost. One might do as well, or better, by pouring hot sand or tungsten powders into a carefully measured quantity of electrolyte and doing the calorimetry with a thermometer. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 04:42:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA18961; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 04:41:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 04:41:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000116073807.007eee80 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 07:38:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000116014151.006fbb94 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000115220441.007fc390 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081800.01dfb9a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0j3qy3.0.7e4.8oRWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:04 PM 1/15/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: "It is again suggested that one does basic controls, clear calorimetric models, with close attention to ystem responses, cooling curves, noise, heat and mass transfer, degree of heat loss, and optimal operating point (including note that the peak may be one-sided in some systems such as you may be using). Given that you have been uninterested in the past and continue to be uninterested as you state above, Scott, no further effort will be made to convince you. However, serious scientists and engineers of LENR/CF should take note and consider to incorporate the above in their more serious and methodical experiments." At 01:41 AM 1/16/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Hallelujah! Your mercy will long be remembered. > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 Nice troll, Scott. So will your systematic attempts at avoiding good experimental set-ups, drive conditions (1-3), appropriate null conditions (4), appropriate flow conditions (1,5,6), noise measurments (7), and other relevant controls (8-10) which together come close to having the appearance of bordering on applied pseudoscience. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz ========================================================= 1) Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low nergy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) 2) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox "Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) 3) Swartz, M, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 (1998) 4) Swartz, M., Verner, G., "The Importance of Controlling Zero-Input Electrical Power Offset", Journal of New Energy, 3, 1, 14-19 (1998) 5) Swartz, M, "Improved Calculations Involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221 (1996) 6) Swartz, M, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996) 7) Swartz, M, "Noise Measurement in cold fusion systems, Journal of New Energy, 2, 2, 56-61 (1997) 8) Swartz. M., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) 9) Swartz, M., "Relative Impact of Thermal Stratification of the Air Surrounding a Calorimeter", Journal of New Energy, 2, 219-221 (1996) 10) Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 05:03:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA22074; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 05:02:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 05:02:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000116075907.007c1d70 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 07:59:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 OOP In-Reply-To: <005001bf600a$76139ec0$d4451d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"iT3Qh.0.qO5.36SWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:13 AM 1/16/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: "First, IMO it is doubtful the immersion heater involves cold fusion, and there is no evidence it involves excess heat unless calibrations and cooling curves, noise measurements, etc. are done. Second, furthermore, without the use of a multiring calorimetric system to demonstrate excess energy as well as excess power over a short time, it is more likely purported timeWindow-Sparber-POOP is an artifact which will be revealed in more careful measurements." Frederick Sparber wrote: >One must appreciate the physics of the solid-liquid-vapor interface of a heated metal surface. >In the cold condition, the electrical double layer (Stern-Guoy) allows alignment of >the ions in the water to be attracted to the metal surface,setting up an electrical potential. Not quite. The water moleculars are part of giant stereoconstellation and are involved in very high energetic bonds. But there is partial alignment generally of the structures and the proton-dipole bridges. There is a paper about to be submitted on this if time permits, but you are referred to papers by A. von Hippel et alia circa 1967-1970. ============================================== >When the metal of the immersion heater is heated to a temperature such that the double layer >is disrupted, (about 4 watts/cm^2) oscillatory effects set in causing the formation and collapse >of nanobubbles and setting up sound. It is more complicated, but the sounds (acoustic phonons in Pd/D2O) systems have been followed including through LENR/CF reactions. [Swartz, M., "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997)] In fact there are several sounds which exist "naturally" and can be induced [Swartz, M., "Possible Deuterium Production From Light Water Excess Enthalpy Experiments using Nickel Cathodes", Journal of New Energy, 3, 68-80 (1996)]. ============================================== >If the power input is maintained at the same rate a >layer of steam "insulates" the metal surface from the liquid bulk, and the double layer is lost. > >If the input power is "pulsed" by applying power of several seconds duration, then >cutting the power long enough for the double layer to re-form you have created a situation >that embraces the effects of F&P cell, Ceti Beads, Griggs Pump, M&O experiments, and other ou >effects due to electrokinetic/surface effects etc. What do you mean by "embraces"? They are a diverse set of experiments and for some, F&P for example. Your less than relevant matters, but otherwise very important citations, do not discuss the physics which dominates IF the loading is sufficient (1-4) AND the material does not catastrophically degrade (too quickly, but impt for feedback)(5-6). 1) Swartz. M., "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion Technology, 32, 126-130 (1997) 2) Swartz, M., "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (1994) 3) Swartz. M., "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations" "Cold Fusion Source Book", International Symposium On Cold Fusion And Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox, Minsk, Belarus (1994) 4) Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992) 5) Swartz, M., "Hydrogen Redistribution By Catastrophic Desorption In Select Transition Metals", Journal of New Energy, 1, 4, 26-33 (1997) 6) Swartz. M., "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion" Vol. 4. "Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research (1994) ============================================== >IOW, keeping the power input constant is a waste of energy, and the OOP-ou "window" is lost. What do you mean by "OOP-ou "window"? Stated but unproven. ============================================== >One might do as well, or better, by pouring hot sand or tungsten powders into >a carefully measured quantity of electrolyte and doing the calorimetry with a thermometer. > >Regards, Frederick You have many ideas, Fred. No doubt many are good, and we should all have the wisdom to know which are which ;-)X It would be better if you either clearly state your ideas, define some of the terms, etc. when asked, or follow them through with actual data and those controls and measurements of system response, noise, etc.. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 06:00:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA31676; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 05:59:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 05:59:34 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <3d.53e578.25b328c0 aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 08:59:28 EST Subject: Build yourself your OAUGDP device. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"kflHA1.0.nk7.5xSWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, I am glad to present you a short tutorial for building yourself a Glow Discharge Plasma panel. With this basic and simple device, you will be able to explore and discover yourself the world of the One Atmosphere Glow Discharge Plasma ( so called OAUGDP ). When your OAUGDP panel will be energized by its special power supply, it will be covered by a glow and cold plasma skin on all its surface .This panel is not able to generate some thrusting effects, but you will be able to explore some OAUGDP properties like the air drag reduction effect and to test the EM cloacking effect. You will find all pictures and diagrams in my web site at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp.htm Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 08:27:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01946; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 08:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 08:25:20 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 OOP Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:35:40 -0500 Message-ID: <20000116163540609.AAA284 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"4nF2d2.0.KU.l3VWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred and Mitch write: >> >>If the input power is "pulsed" by applying power of several seconds >duration, then >>cutting the power long enough for the double layer to re-form you have >created a situation >>that embraces the effects of F&P cell, Ceti Beads, Griggs Pump, M&O >experiments, and other ou >>effects due to electrokinetic/surface effects etc. > > What do you mean by "embraces"? I think what he is saying, Mitch, is that the XS heat reported by the above researchers, and the surface deformations reported by these researchers, as well as the entire group of surface corrosion researchers, may be due in part to a cavitation bubble collapse mechanism. The surface deformations certainly have the same appearance, although getting everyone to agree on the calorimetry has been the sticking point for everyone. The methods of producing the reaction would differ somewhat, but the end result would be the same. The pulsing of the power would have a similar, and perhaps, more controllable result than that of stirring the electrolyte. Either way, or even if both methods were used in combination (stirring the POOP, as it were), I would think that the elongation in time of the "lump" in the data that you are seeking would be a very difficult (but not impossible) engineering task to maintain. I actually have some very low-cost cell designs that I've been thinking about trying at some point. > They are a diverse set of experiments and for some, F&P for example. >Your less than relevant matters, but otherwise very important citations, >do not discuss the physics which dominates IF the loading is sufficient >(1-4) AND the material does not catastrophically degrade >(too quickly, but impt for feedback)(5-6). You may well be correct on both points (proper loading and minimizing degradation), but the designs that I have in mind would allow for the degradation to occur without it being too much of a problem. > You have many ideas, Fred. No doubt many are good, and we >should all have the wisdom to know which are which ;-)X Fred has enough good ideas to keep a lab of about 20 people working full time, and I think that they would also have a lot of fun. > It would be better if you either clearly state your ideas, >define some of the terms, etc. when asked, or follow them >through with actual data and those controls and measurements >of system response, noise, etc.. > > Best wishes. > > Mitchell Swartz Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 09:04:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11743; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:01:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:01:30 -0800 From: BriggsRO aol.com Message-ID: <40.7652e4.25b35360 aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:01:20 EST Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"bxxiT2.0.Pt2.fbVWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/14/00 6:41:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net writes: << Scott packs up his cell, lid, anode and cathode, stirrer, etc., and heads to Sapporo. Once there, Mizuno can do a run, and, if it isn't "over unity," they can change things out one at a time. Remove Scott's stirrer, and substitute Mizuno's stirrer. Then remove Scott's electrolyte, and substitute Mizuno's electrolyte. Then remove Scott's beaker, and substitute Mizuno's beaker. Etc. Eventually, and rather quickly, I'll bet, they would unravel this conundrum. --MJ}*** >> That's certainly the way I would go about it, but then, I'm not an electrochemist, I'm just an engineer. Bob Briggs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 09:23:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20213; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:21:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:21:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000116014151.006fbb94 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000115220441.007fc390 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081800.01dfb9a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:17:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"gmOyN.0.lx4.AuVWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In his original writeup for Run 4, Scott Little said: "The cell boiled for 1350 seconds (22.5 minutes) at a steady voltage of 161.4 volts and an average current of 0.768 amps. The average electrical energy power was 123.96 watts and the total electrical input energy was 167,342 joules." Question: how did you pick 161.5 volts? It seems reasonable to me that some voltage settings would be more likely, given the particulars of your setup, to produce excess heat than others. Why not explore various voltages in the vicinity of 161.5, all in the same run? You could put a light meter next to the cell, for example, and systematically vary the voltage, looking for the setting that would maximize the visible frequency output. Or you could monitor UV or IR output and go through the same sort of procedure. (Or, even better, use all three.) That strikes me as a far more efficient method of searching for the proper voltage setting than merely picking a number and investing an entire run on that setting, as you have apparently done. --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 10:23:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10003; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:21:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:21:32 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3d.53e578.25b328c0 aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:18:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Build yourself your OAUGDP device. Resent-Message-ID: <"KMHel1.0.CS2.imWWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Dear All, > >I am glad to present you a short tutorial for building yourself a Glow >Discharge Plasma panel. With this basic and simple device, you will be able >to explore and discover yourself the world of the One Atmosphere Glow >Discharge Plasma ( so called OAUGDP ). When your OAUGDP panel will be >energized by its special power supply, it will be covered by a glow and cold >plasma skin on all its surface .This panel is not able to generate some >thrusting effects, but you will be able to explore some OAUGDP properties >like the air drag reduction effect and to test the EM cloacking effect. > >You will find all pictures and diagrams in my web site at : > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp.htm ***{Excellent work Jean-Louis, as usual. Thanks a lot! --MJ}*** > >Best Regards, > >Jean-Louis Naudin >Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com >Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs >eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 10:25:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10762; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:23:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:23:30 -0800 Message-ID: <383467042.948046826223.JavaMail.root web35.pub01> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 13:20:26 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman), vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.235 Resent-Message-ID: <"uMjs81.0.4e2.XoWWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just spoke to GM EV1 and they claim the rumor is false. It may result from the way they build these cars in runs of 2,500. Someone could conclude when they finished a run that this means the vehicle is discontinued. ------Original Message------ From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: January 15, 2000 4:30:32 PM GMT Subject: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Gnorts, I recall someone saying recently on Vortex that they were purchasing or planning to purchase an EV1 from GM. If you haven't already ordered it, you might want to do so quickly. I read a couple of days ago in the local paper that GM had stopped producing the electric car because it competed with the hybrid vehicle line that they were offering. GM says says that they still have some EV1 models in stock, so it is still possible to get one. It may even gain collector value over the years, who knows. When I first read about this, I passed it off as just another example of a large corporation acting in its own self interests, but then I remembered the business about California passing legislation disallowing any auto manufacturer access to the Californian market if they didn't allow what I thought was a "zero pollution" alternative vehicle. Have the hybrids managed to fit this description either legally or in reality, or did I misinterpret the Californian legislation. Anybody have better details? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm Mark Goldes ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 12:06:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15822; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:04:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:04:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000116140520.00705e80 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:05:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000116014151.006fbb94 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000115220441.007fc390 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081800.01dfb9a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9mtBB.0.8t3.3HYWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:17 AM 1/16/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >Question: how did you pick 161.5 volts? It's a higher voltage than I was able to attain in the 1st and 2nd series with the 150 VDC supply and it's lower than the 200+ voltages that I have shown cause rapid disintegration of the cathode lead insulation. However, most importantly, it's the same (nominally) voltage used by O&M in the experiments I'm presently trying to replicate. > It seems reasonable to me that some >voltage settings would be more likely, given the particulars of your setup, >to produce excess heat than others. Why not explore various voltages in the >vicinity of 161.5, all in the same run? I've done some of that kind of thing in the earlier series but, you're right, it should be done again. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 12:16:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21505; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:15:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:15:14 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:25:35 -0500 Message-ID: <20000116202535562.AAA159 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"bOaZT2.0.xF5.IRYWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark wrote: >I just spoke to GM EV1 and they claim the rumor is false. It may result >from the way they build these cars in runs of 2,500. Someone could conclude >when they finished a run that this means the vehicle is discontinued. Thanks Mark for checking. I dug out that article and re-read it. There is some ambiguity, and my own choice of words was not so careful, either. Below is the complete article as printed in the Thursday, January 13, 2000 Daily Commercial of Leesburg, FL. It's only a few sentences long. -------------------------------- GM Pulls Plug on Electric Car Detroit - General Motors Corp. has stopped production of its sleek EV1 electric car, citing waning interest from its customers. GM vice-chairman Harry J. Pearce said Tuesday that GM was shifting its attention from all-electric cars to vehicles powered by hybrid fuel-electric systems and fuel cells, which use hydrogen to create electricity. Pearce said the company had a sufficient supply of the EV1s on hand, and said while GM could build more, there was "no particular need". -------------------------------- Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 12:21:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25389; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:19:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:19:58 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:30:22 -0500 Message-ID: <20000116203022234.AAA224 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"BcAW-3.0.cC6.kVYWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >Question: how did you pick 161.5 volts? It seems reasonable to me that some >voltage settings would be more likely, given the particulars of your setup, >to produce excess heat than others. Why not explore various voltages in the >vicinity of 161.5, all in the same run? You could put a light meter next to >the cell, for example, and systematically vary the voltage, looking for the >setting that would maximize the visible frequency output. Or you could >monitor UV or IR output and go through the same sort of procedure. (Or, >even better, use all three.) That strikes me as a far more efficient method >of searching for the proper voltage setting than merely picking a number >and investing an entire run on that setting, as you have apparently done. > >--Mitchell Jones That's a good idea, Mitch, and something along the line of what I was going to suggest for the stirring speed as well. Adjust the speed up and down over the course of a single run. A light meter would be great, but even using the calorimeter would be fine, as it seems to be fairly robust at measuring the changes in the parameters. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 12:25:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26882; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:24:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:24:12 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Build yourself your OAUGDP device. Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:34:36 -0500 Message-ID: <20000116203436265.AAA233 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"OZYmS3.0.yZ6.hZYWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{Excellent work Jean-Louis, as usual. Thanks a lot! --MJ}*** Agreed, and there is a lot of great stuff available to read at the IPEG site as well. http://plasma.ee.utk.edu/ Thank you Jean-Louis, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 12:45:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00670; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:43:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:43:01 -0800 Message-ID: <38822B99.476 ca-ois.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:35:37 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: vortexb-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Continuity vs. Discontinuity - References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XF5pJ3.0.EA.KrYWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > >And if you found out at some later time that the lines you are reading > >at this very moment were produced by a computer program, what would THAT > >do to your "structure"? Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{As previously noted, doubts concerning the sources of some sensations > do not prevent one from having reason based beliefs concerning the sources > of others. Doubts about whether sensations have sources, however, do. > --MJ}*** There is no doubt that sensations have sources. I have never said that sensations might not have sources, or that such sensations could come into existence out of nothing. You are the one who extrapolates from this, however, that the behaviour we've recorded on the photograph at http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html, for example, cannot represent that which it appears to, which is: that the motion of the steel pellets discontinues momentarily and then resumes. As I see it, you would have three possible options for the interpretation of this experimental result, which are: 1. The pellets are moving discontinuously, which you say is impossible by drawing inference from your principle. 2. The pellets are being strobed by the flash unit, which would be anomalous, discontinuous behavior of the flash, hopefully not impossible by reason of your principle. 3. The chemicals in the film recording the traverse of the pellets reacted discontinuously, which would be anomalous, discontinuous behaviour of the film (whether or not this is impossible by reason of your principle I do not know). As to your idea that the pellets may be alternatlely condensing into solidity out of invisible gas and then evaporating into gas again at nearly evenly spaced intervals of several microseconds, I say that's a very interesting idea, but it is not supported by the general circumstances of the experiments. I do not understand how that if we agree that sensations must have sources, THAT has anything to do with making interpretation 1, that the pellets are moving discontinuously, impossible. I don't think it is implied by this interpretation that the recorded changes in position of the pellets in Fig5hr resulted from the pellets appearing out of "nothing" and then disappearing again into "nothing". It merely reperesents (1) the observation of a "duty cycle" of the mechanical physics of motion itself, or (2) the possible operation of a "duty cycle" of the film recording the position changes. You have repeatedly argued that ordinary motion resulting from action/reaction does not involve information transfer, because human or computer intelligence need not be involved. But since sensations, we have agreed, must have sources, there must be a transfer of information from source to sensation, regardless of whether the "sensor" is a brain, a cpu or some other kind of test mass that is capable of "reacting" in response to the behaviour of a source mass. To illustrate this, it can be observed that when cue ball A impinges on 8 ball B at angle C it drops into hole D. Changing angle C will result in 8 ball B missing hole D. One could therefore play a game of "20 questions" with a billiards expert based on whether 8 ball B drops into the hole, or misses it. One might arbitrarily assign the meaning "yes" to when the 8 ball drops into the hole, and "no" when it misses the hole. In either case there is information transfer from the source mass A to the sensor mass B. This information transfer process must necessarily entail a time delay allowing for the decelleration of cue ball A and the acceleration of 8 ball B. Neither acceleration nor decelleration can occur instantaneously, and the duration of "crack" heard when striking one billiard ball with another probably represents the approximate duration of this information transfer process. There is some point within this duration where, if the cue ball approaches the 8 ball dead on center, the cue ball becomes motionless (stops), and the 8 ball _begins_ it's motion. Prior to the stopping of the 8 ball, Newton's laws on this subject would seem to require that the 8 ball REMAIN MOTIONLESS during the cue ball's decelleration phase, in order to absorb the amount of energy required to "stop" the cue ball. It is just this action - reaction information transfer process that needs to be observed and analyzed, and that is what this research is primarily concerned with. High speed photography is a vital tool in this kind of effort. Newton's 1st law of motion: A body at rest will remain at rest and a body in motion will continue in motion in a straight line at constant velocity IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY INTERACTION with the rest of the universe. Now, once the 8 ball is moving there are necessarily interactions or information exchanges occuring with the rest of the universe, using the same logic as above, while it is on it's way to the hole. These interactions include the exchange of information about the impingement of numerous air molecules surronding the ball at all times (air friction). Where at one time the algebraic summation of the motion of these air molecules equals zero, if it is assumed the air is not moving relative to the reference frame of the pool table (no "wind") then this information must be transferred to the ball somehow in a similar way as when the cue ball struck the 8 ball, that is, DURING THE TIME that a single air molecule is accelerated out of the way, an exhange of information is occurring between the 8 ball and the air molecule. If that is true, then it can be further inferred that motion does not continue during this information transfer period. The proof of this assertion is in the experimental result, the photographs, which have not been refuted or explained away in any other comprehensible terms. I propose that, in principle, no exchange or transfer of information can occur in time t=0 ("instantaneously"). All information transfer requires the passage of time. It is this passage of time that is represented by the immobility period of the pellets in http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html, and the small nail of http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html . By application of newtons law, above, it is inferred that motion _continues_ UNLESS the motion is interfered with by the rest of the universe, in which case, there must be a discontinuance of the motion from what it was previous to such interference. If Newton's law is correct then, that would mean that there is no possible chance for motion to be continuous AT ANY TIME. This follows because there are no imaginable circumstances where the universe does not interact with an object in motion. (snip) > The odds > are that things are exactly as the evidence suggests: that when we die, we > rot, and that's it. --MJ}*** Now that's what I call a "dismal" philosphy, Mitchell. You are welcome to it and to all the boring, depressing implications that such a view entails. According to another movie, William Wallace (1270 - 1305) thought that the spirit of his dead, mercilessly executed wife was watching him all the time. She appeared to him once in a lucid dream. The vengeance he enacted upon the tyrants of his day was a direct result of the courage he displayed, supported by that belief. I propose that, perhaps during the times represented by the gaps between recorded positions of the objects , the duty cycle of the universe mechanism alternates to another state of existence, or being, whatever you want to call it. What this state of existence is like, I do not know, and have not seen, except perhaps, in dreams. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 15:50:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21155; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:47:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:47:18 -0800 Message-ID: <38825736.7E19 ca-ois.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:41:42 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4C26756B2EB1" Resent-Message-ID: <"W-tLE3.0.TA5.5YbWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4C26756B2EB1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vorts- Attached is a recent magnification and contrast enhancement of fig6hr, showing detail of the "wispy trail". Comments are welcome. note that magnetism may be prominent in this phenomena (the Large nail was magnetized). 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MUEwDQpDQU5BREEuDQoNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWluZHdvcmtzaG9wLmNvbQ0KDQpUaGlzIGNv bW1lbnQgd2lsbCBub3QgYXBwZWFyIGluIGZpbGVzIGNyZWF0ZWQgd2l0aCBhIHJlZ2lzdGVy ZWQgdmVyc2lvbi4AAA== --------------4C26756B2EB1-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 15:54:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24889; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:52:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:52:37 -0800 Message-ID: <00a201bf6085$0bd9c040$d4451d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Pair Production and OU Effects on a Hot Metal Surface Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:50:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"KdoxS3.0.p46.4dbWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The autoionization of water (H+/H3O+ , OH-) allows Protons/Deuterons to migrate to a metal surface where the electrons bound in the metal can form a temporary "bond". Heating the metal to ~ 467 deg K (~195 deg C)can cause it to emit photons with a wavelength peak of ~ 6.2 microns or with a spread of ~0.2 ev to 0.4 ev(according to Wien's Displacement Law). The photons can interact with the Protons/Deuterons and the electron from the OH- ion and form a Quasineutron, or in the case of a Deuteron form a Quasidineutron, concurrently releasing energy (EUV or Soft X-Ray). Apparently the K+ or CO3= or HCO3- ions play a catalytic role in this. I would think that an F&P type, electrolysis cell with a heated cathode, or putting a negative potential on the sheath of an immersion heater could speed things up enormously. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 17:33:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20436; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:31:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:31:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000116203022234.AAA224 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:28:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"3IzFT3.0.D_4.N3dWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitch writes: >>Question: how did you pick 161.5 volts? It seems reasonable to me that some >>voltage settings would be more likely, given the particulars of your setup, >>to produce excess heat than others. Why not explore various voltages in the >>vicinity of 161.5, all in the same run? You could put a light meter next to >>the cell, for example, and systematically vary the voltage, looking for the >>setting that would maximize the visible frequency output. Or you could >>monitor UV or IR output and go through the same sort of procedure. (Or, >>even better, use all three.) That strikes me as a far more efficient method >>of searching for the proper voltage setting than merely picking a number >>and investing an entire run on that setting, as you have apparently done. >> >>--Mitchell Jones > >That's a good idea, Mitch, and something along the line of what I was going >to suggest for the stirring speed as well. Adjust the speed up and down >over the course of a single run. A light meter would be great, but even >using the calorimeter would be fine, as it seems to be fairly robust at >measuring the changes in the parameters. ***{Yes, another good thing to do. Also, since Mizuno noted in one of his e-mails to Scott that the excess heat kicks in when the cell starts putting out lots of RF, that would also be an important parameter to measure, perhaps with a device as simple as a transistor radio. He could search through the band before cranking up the cell, and jot down the frequencies at which there is static, then go thorugh it again with the cell on, to see if new static appears at some other point in the band. If it does, he could park on that frequency and begin to vary the voltage, to see if he could bring about a large increase in the static at that frequency, and if he can, he could then place the cell on that voltage setting for the rest of the run, and see if the resulting numbers were over unity. Another thought: if static appears on multiple frequencies when the cell is on, buy multiple transistor radios, and park one on each of those frequencies. (Transistor radios are dirt cheap nowadays.) --MJ}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 17:43:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25404; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:41:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:41:53 -0800 Message-ID: <384716033.948073305402.JavaMail.root web36.pub01> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:41:45 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman), vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.214 Resent-Message-ID: <"DmUdU.0.GB6.VDdWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke, Thanks for posting the article. GM overestimated market demand for the EV1 by a wide margin before they started building the car. They decided to build 2,500 at a time, with a maximum capacity of 7,500 per year at the start. Leases have been way below estimates. The vehicles are not and have never been for sale. I believe they still have more than 1,500 cars in storage. Even with the new model featuring NiMH batteries, probably retrofit to stored cars originally designed for lead-acid batteries, they would not need to build more for some years in the future. This could, of course, suddenly change if an unconventional generator based on LENR, or any of the other systems discussed on this board, becomes available and proves practical from both a technical and cost viewpoint. Since substantial redesign might well be required such a development might instead be known as the EV2 or even 3. Needless to say, this is another type of hybrid and would likely carry some entirely new designation to maximize the market impact. ------Original Message------ From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: January 16, 2000 8:25:35 PM GMT Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Mark wrote: >I just spoke to GM EV1 and they claim the rumor is false. It may result >from the way they build these cars in runs of 2,500. Someone could conclude >when they finished a run that this means the vehicle is discontinued. Thanks Mark for checking. I dug out that article and re-read it. There is some ambiguity, and my own choice of words was not so careful, either. Below is the complete article as printed in the Thursday, January 13, 2000 Daily Commercial of Leesburg, FL. It's only a few sentences long. -------------------------------- GM Pulls Plug on Electric Car Detroit - General Motors Corp. has stopped production of its sleek EV1 electric car, citing waning interest from its customers. GM vice-chairman Harry J. Pearce said Tuesday that GM was shifting its attention from all-electric cars to vehicles powered by hybrid fuel-electric systems and fuel cells, which use hydrogen to create electricity. Pearce said the company had a sufficient supply of the EV1s on hand, and said while GM could build more, there was "no particular need". -------------------------------- Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 17:46:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03053; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:43:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:43:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3882733E.1C4B suite224.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:41:18 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr References: <38825736.7E19 ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IQPGa.0.cl.DFdWu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > Vorts- > > Attached is a recent magnification and contrast enhancement of fig6hr, > showing detail of the "wispy trail". Comments are welcome. note that > magnetism may be prominent in this phenomena (the Large nail was > magnetized). Nice enlargement, Jim. Here are my SPECULATIONS: 1. The initial image of the up-side-down "target" nail is very bright and probably indicates that the nail remained in place for a fairly long time after the strobe trigger and before impact by the bullet. 2. From the streaking visible at the top of the shot, I assume the bullet passed above and just behind the point of the nail. I say behind because it looks to me like the point of the nail is rotating toward the observer, and the head away from the observer - clockwise from the gun. The initial bright image played no part in this estimate of the rotation. 3. It looks to me like the curved "wisp" trail from the initial head position to the top of the first remote image was made by the nail head "region" of the nail as it rotated end-over-end to the top of the first remote image. 4. Notice that the nail in the first remote image appears to be bent by the impact of the bullet - and for this to be consistant with my rotation speculation, I have to stick by my first estimate that the bullet hit a glancing blow just behind the initial image - at first, bending the nail point toward the observer. By the first remote image, the nail had rotated 180 degrees, so the head is at the top and the point is bent away from the camera. 5. By the second remote image, the nail has rotated another 180 degrees and the "elbow" of the bend now points away from the camera. OK, one problem I have with this theory is that it almost looks like the nail has a velocity component AWAY from the camera. But, you would think if my upper-rear impact theory is correct, then that velocity component would be TOWARD the camera. Any insights here?? And, Jim, this is what I meant by a shot post mortum being valuable - had we been there, we might have been able to tell where the nail went following the impact - maybe from a mark it might have made on the surroundings. Now, I don't think Jim agrees with me, but I claim that a shiny metal cylinder tumbling end over end, and illuminated by a narrow beam, has a very high maximum light reflection to a specific spot (the camera) OVER A RATHER NARROW ANGLE OF ROTATION. I believe that it is this effect that produces the periodic images of the nail. I attached a shiny steel cylinder to a shaft and rotated it in a dark room, illuminated by a spot light and this effect was very obvious. It may be that the combination of the film characteristics and the development process may tend to "clip" out the low-level portion of the "disk-of-rotation" of the nail and leave only the rather distinct images we observe in Boisvert's photo. Now, I may have the rotational dynamics screwed up a bit, but to me the probable rotation of the nail is a GIVEN. The very fact that the nail images appear to be roughly parallel supports my theory - it's the strobe and the camera geometry that determines the image position and thats why the nail images are parallel Any comments? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 19:38:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31618; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:36:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:36:44 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:47:02 -0500 Message-ID: <20000117034702578.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3QRAp1.0.yj7.BveWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mark, et. al. Thanks for the comeback, Mark. To be quite honest, I have to admit a personal bias against GM for their labor and business practices, and especially those regarding their offering of an alternatively fueled vehicle. As the perfect example, I didn't even know that they had an EV1 until someone posted it just within the last week or so. I've not seen any magazine ads, Internet ads, TV ads or any other kind of promotional material for the thing, so it is no surprise to me that there has been no demand. Instead, I've only seen ads for gas powered vehicles, mainly SUVs, luxury cars, and minivans, and I keep reading statements like "America likes really great, big cars", and "we see no particular need" for producing an electric vehicle. We all know that positive advertising creates demand, no advertising or even at times negative advertising, doesn't. Leasing a car as opposed to buying just doesn't appeal to everyone either, and if that was the only way the EV1 was offered, then GM (purposely?) limited their market further in this way, as well. I suppose also that they priced it well beyond its actual value, but I don't know what the price was, so I probably shouldn't say. This is only a guess based on GM's past performance history of selling junk, foot dragging, and profit taking. I've seen conversions of regular cars, and one light duty pick-up truck to electric power in working demos that only cost $3000 to convert. These cars had steel bodies, etc. and all the other normal stuff that cars have. They were normal cars. What this tells me is that a roadworthy, light-weight, aerodynamically shaped vehicle built out of composites could be mass produced for around the same price or less, as a golf cart. Base sticker prices for personal transportation could be well under $5,000, again. We would then have an affordable, mid-range (150-200 miles) commuter vehicle that would not make noise or pollute the planet. People could rent gas powered cars or take mass transit (trains, buses, and planes) for longer trips, and save themselves about $15,000 per vehicle purchase. The option of renting EVs would be available as well in most urban areas. Since electric cars are less prone to fail mechanically, the EV owners would retain a great deal of the value of the vehicle for a longer period of time, as well. No tune-ups, or oil changes, etc., either. If GM had approached the electric car market with the right attitude, they could have made a bundle by now, and contributed a great deal to the good health of everyone as well. It is really too bad that their management has their collective head stuck in the19th century. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 19:39:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31668; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:36:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:36:56 -0800 Message-ID: <38828CA9.6AF5 ca-ois.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:29:45 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr References: <38825736.7E19 ca-ois.com> <3882733E.1C4B@suite224.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4F1528D95B40" Resent-Message-ID: <"Zo1cl1.0.jk7.OveWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4F1528D95B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > > Vorts- > > > > Attached is a recent magnification and contrast enhancement of fig6hr, > > showing detail of the "wispy trail". Comments are welcome. note that > > magnetism may be prominent in this phenomena (the Large nail was > > magnetized). > > Nice enlargement, Jim. Thanks. Gif Construction Set. > > Here are my SPECULATIONS: > > 1. The initial image of the up-side-down "target" nail is very bright > and probably indicates that the nail remained in place for a > fairly long time after the strobe trigger and before impact by > the bullet. Not to be nit picky, but both you and Scott refer to the operation of the flash unit as "strobe". Not so, according to BCIT, particularly at this flash duration, 1/2000 sec. But yes, obviously the small main sat bathed in the light from the flash for a time previous to it's being impacted by the bullet. The camera shutter was open at all times during the traverse. > 2. From the streaking visible at the top of the shot, I assume the > bullet passed above and just behind the point of the nail. > I say behind because it looks to me like the point of the nail > is rotating toward the observer, and the head away from the > observer - clockwise from the gun. The initial bright image > played no part in this estimate of the rotation. > 3. It looks to me like the curved "wisp" trail from the initial head > position to the top of the first remote image was made by the > nail head "region" of the nail as it rotated end-over-end to > the top of the first remote image. > 4. Notice that the nail in the first remote image appears to be bent > by the impact of the bullet - and for this to be consistant with > my rotation speculation, I have to stick by my first estimate > that the bullet hit a glancing blow just behind the initial > image - at first, bending the nail point toward the observer. > By the first remote image, the nail had rotated 180 degrees, so > the head is at the top and the point is bent away from the > camera. > 5. By the second remote image, the nail has rotated another 180 degrees > and the "elbow" of the bend now points away from the camera. > > OK, one problem I have with this theory is that it almost looks like > the nail has a velocity component AWAY from the camera. But, you would > think if my upper-rear impact theory is correct, then that velocity > component would be TOWARD the camera. Any insights here?? It would seem to me that off the cuff, the general motion is towards the right, down and inward toward the camera. I don't see how you obtain motion away from the camera, unless you figure the second remote image is smaller than the first one, but this effect may be due to the rotation of the nail being "caught" at an instant that the nail is leaning a bit inward by the time it gets to position 3 (the second remote image). I wanted to call attention to the "wispy trail" because I detect a very faint wisp of this trail at the BOTTOM of the second remote image, corresponding to the nail TIP. If you can follow my reduced resolution image and the numbering thereon, attached below, it appears to me that at point (1 ->), where the trail starts, note that it passes a few mm OVERHEAD OF THE FIRST REMOTE IMAGE, curves downward and seems to deflect off the middle of the second remote image (2 ->), curves to the left (3->) and ends up on the OPPOSITE end of the nail from where it started, the tip, (4->) instead of the head! This wispy trail is not following the feature of the nail head! It is following the trail of the magnetic field line that goes from north to south poles. If that's true, our friend Larry of Philadelphia Experiment fame would be very interested, I think, because here we seem to have direct evidence of magnetism influencing the behaviour of light, somehow. But, never mind that, we know old Larry is "obsessed", don't we? We better not say anything to him about THIS! > And, Jim, this is what I meant by a shot post mortum being valuable - > had we been there, we might have been able to tell where the nail went > following the impact - maybe from a mark it might have made on the > surroundings. > > Now, I don't think Jim agrees with me, but I claim that a shiny metal > cylinder tumbling end over end, and illuminated by a narrow beam, has > a very high maximum light reflection to a specific spot (the camera) > OVER A RATHER NARROW ANGLE OF ROTATION. I believe that it is this > effect that produces the periodic images of the nail. Errr...no. > I attached a shiny steel cylinder to a shaft and rotated it in a dark > room, illuminated by a spot light and this effect was very obvious. > It may be that the combination of the film characteristics and the > development process may tend to "clip" out the low-level portion of the > "disk-of-rotation" of the nail and leave only the rather distinct images > we observe in Boisvert's photo. Well, for one thing what kind of spotlight are you using? Could IT be strobing? Photos taken of spinning propellers in presumably constant sunlight exhibit little blurring in the middle, where the propeller shaft is, and lots out towards the end of the propeller blades. Therefore I would expect, given that our flash isn't strobing, a similar effect to occur when viewing the nail, we should not be able to make out either extreme end of the small nail in any of the successive remote images. > Now, I may have the rotational dynamics screwed up a bit, but to me the > probable rotation of the nail is a GIVEN. Yes. The very fact that the nail > images appear to be roughly parallel supports my theory - it's the > strobe and the camera geometry that determines the image position and > thats why the nail images are parallel Nah. The camera and "strobe" (flash) geometry do not have a preferred orientation up, down right or left in the experimental setup. Jim --------------4F1528D95B40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="6HRENH2.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="6HRENH2.GIF" R0lGODlhngCOALMAAAAAAAAAqwCrAACrq6sAAKsAq6tXAKurq1dXVwAA/wD/AAD///8AAP8A ////AP///ywAAAAAngCOAAAE//AdOY+9OOvNu/9gKGrUaJ5oqq5sayEZ/MkhfSB4Dut8fvs2 lwf32xWJveKxJ7M1L0ZMcLjRLZnYrO8llCq14LB4TH7tzuT0dlpj395mtXxOr9utIhoamL7e /2F+gGNDg4aHiIlWNg+NJYKKkZKTSReOl1CUdFeQmpqWl41xnnZwLHpcfKQ8oKEUq7Cxf62u mbKHR6OAnXcYrpi8t8LCtL+2w8jJxaHHyc6yy8y6z9Se0cDV2bAWv9ja35PXjtPgsgAAOeiR 4q/lwufw8fCJ3N2iwe6R8vvzhvX25KyV40cQlz1R+d4R5DfonzF8CRMt3IdAXa+D7SLCmlgx XsMJAP8h0rF4iCQ6i+fSzVvZcaJLj71AdoOYMmWPkxVbLsyZ06Y6m4BqnnxJ1CNQNTIfMiHJ Y2g/HURxsNSJc2jHlktHSi1KEWaZgwGhMt3qlas8qjvPMuzqUqzZlWMDgQVjFctatkXRwn37 Vi9XqmIc1qKrk2fdwhTJ8l3MuPFenGCS1hJksqrRfi/9Ok67uXNPLZKl2W3qk6PTzqhTmyXL M0toTKO9StX8VKXq27h3gn59L3ZtzT1l5x5O/DeekFlOk9atWOjp4tCjQgaNXIvTpZef3o3O fTX1mWGba39+9mb389KPJqkehqF407TRy2/tOmSwtvG3y98/1TXvjNbhx9j/e/xFF8h/IpEx YIHzRcZbeEiMxOCEHEXGHitSYJgGhRwaxwSCuSS4YYcTBgZihiOaRmKHctkn4mxXEbhiiS2C 94YaVsW13IzoEWKfhLIlx2OPgf2YlUpQ6SXGkNz5OJeQts3mXntMEkdffRcmCSNM5OmIWJXD OalUVixxWRB2fOUHZpBYjtnUZ86hRB6aa4YppjFCdlnamTLGWedqHlaSpVvxoWUXjzvmZiJY lPkFmKHmrUgmbib+J0Fsal4XF6BtOZbOoZ55uYVgzIDKqZd9QbdkY4SQ4GaifwWaZqcDBshq q76AZ6p3V9pGIpWLleHqq76m2Wuf/NFVK65wAGRr/1/PzpgnrwdCcU14t24KZoyZlsfsD6T2 Fu1f0/6Zah+jgDgutbCaSy6zVji7LrvFuvtutbaoS+etkdp7L76sDJqaht36q95u0zy4hLF+ khSHwXlV2oy+BScGaRPIQhzohzH4IG/FU3pri8b4fYsGghnf67AZJGcm8TEP1stvJUWwCDJz L+cyk8wzx1szg9zy/K+DKKKcMr0wtAP0WKgJ23HSbtrp8QNCq3rTzd7im2G4lx5t7NQ/FFju stWWQMPOXn8Nddhi70s20RvIayARCGHtmdtvY5Frrmg3uXbat+3q6bFbjMN3qYAH+7eaDjTu gGqCb0a4DIZD/YtbqoLEdv9Rjw8cYeJDUz6O5a5gXtziZnXe9Od26zfWP4eHUnXgCNTNeOOe E3GE1fHew3XXmQ1cN+e06zH74BgaHnPGrXs0PFGqr6778ZILOg7aza/2/EuO54538b1jtHl3 tXedvdr9nh7+k/PZvln0US1iupXrHwQ6q+6/T60u5x2HUSPn44rm7icP1cHPPSjaD9j+9wD5 DDCAnTtgeZ4GtMLZDz0DVI3jJPiUBNLIgpfrXwZxw0GgZEha5TNGjxxBwAJukE+6+5mkUhjC JiFkOBKkGfVSg7u2WMpvN+wfhsbXne7t5IcGAkkLoYUHIp7HiBM8SJOUGMD4jcqJjilhPKB4 lmb/1fB02/PbFZdYQJd0j4NRmEnmwqgqE7LsNhJ8ITzQ6MVfrJFqZITWCeHIFTqK4447DFwM SMg5OopOhVaqQB7TxA0sZrF6dbSjndgoQkVW8RxajN+NpKgo1CVLJouEHCPsccl5WLKUeQEl KqunuwtSKmkynA8oh7QegHRyZAWaJaKQ8LtG3PKNuQwiCtMoxUs6YZVF0aWkbvQG8VUxhvM7 jzJ/daMd/I92uPwkC3kUIkv5UpSZoNAIqRkiBkIum8G81DJTcUhO3g1jyEymMDlUu1SwwxGS s0k4S9TIePblFbGzh+f2CbRGSqtu98Tn6h7GzxdIy5IJ/SYr29UjgtIT66LeHN07KVpJRwYz AwwEHvKiSSQpHBSkDPRoxDhKvmNKCoC9RJyKKsRSMULhoCUIqUg5g7NASu0MOI0oJRUXSp5O iaTplIBOAehPO/W0qW+RSUZhU1S/9RRRU8VTVZukmyqRbqmxrJIccZjEpVIVqgsZK0G4GD/i ASCTrMrqYLbKFy2qta3Qw2QizTo6ur4ljj1866zyKtgwyRVxaE1rYCcCV+6tla3n5KvtEptW wjJmsWvdq2TDWqDGvg+z+/AsIyVrvgndlayg3aJm+RpWysqnsaL9J2k527I14YC0pc1ObZlE Q7O2dre5iQAAAA== --------------4F1528D95B40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 20:19:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12343; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:16:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:16:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pair Production and OU Effects on a Hot Metal Surface Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:16:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9q558so233b6d7rnh1j1s4e47gvv1r4j1j 4ax.com> References: <00a201bf6085$0bd9c040$d4451d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <00a201bf6085$0bd9c040$d4451d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA12303 Resent-Message-ID: <"D-N912.0.k03.jUfWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:50:58 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >putting a negative >potential on the sheath of an immersion heater could speed things up enormously. Well Frederick, since you already have the immersion heater, and a couple of flashlight batteries, you should be able to try this in about 5 mins? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 20:24:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15052; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:22:23 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:22:17 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000116203022234.AAA224 mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA15030 Resent-Message-ID: <"35ztF.0.6h3.-ZfWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:28:10 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >***{Yes, another good thing to do. Also, since Mizuno noted in one of his >e-mails to Scott that the excess heat kicks in when the cell starts putting >out lots of RF, that would also be an important parameter to measure, [snip] Alarm bell! RF output is indicative of sparking and current spikes. Just the sort of electrical noise that might throw a meter off? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 20:38:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19796; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:35:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:35:58 -0800 Message-Id: <200001170435.XAA06811 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:31:25 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g6Wnh2.0.Ar4.jmfWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I wanted to call attention to the "wispy trail" because I detect a very > faint wisp of this trail at the BOTTOM of the second remote image, > corresponding to the nail TIP. If you can follow my reduced resolution > image and the numbering thereon, attached below, it appears to me that > at point (1 ->), where the trail starts, note that it passes a few mm > OVERHEAD OF THE FIRST REMOTE IMAGE, curves downward and seems to deflect > off the middle of the second remote image (2 ->), curves to the left > (3->) and ends up on the OPPOSITE end of the nail from where it started, > the tip, (4->) instead of the head! Jim, looking at where the 'wispy trail' begins, it starts at the head of the nail when the point is up. I think it would correspond well to the ring around the nail head, as this is a highly reflective point. The nail is struck, and rotates, so that the head is now pointing up. The trail then curves over the head in the second image, and then curves downward, over the head of the nail which is now facing point UP. The nail cannot be flipped over, and just stop spinning in space after one flip...that would violate many things, including conservation of momentum. Look at the elbow bend in the nail in the second and third images...the bend is in opposition in the two images. This agrees well with the nail spinning end over end, first point up, then down, then up again. The 'wispy trail' is an effect caused by the nail head. And you will note, it is quite continuous. > Well, for one thing what kind of spotlight are you using? Could IT be > strobing? > Photos taken of spinning propellers in presumably constant sunlight > exhibit little blurring in the middle, where the propeller shaft is, and > lots out towards the end of the propeller blades. Therefore I would > expect, given that our flash isn't strobing, a similar effect to occur > when viewing the nail, we should not be able to make out either extreme > end of the small nail in any of the successive remote images. Look at the image closer. The ends, both point and head or the nail, are quite blurred. In the third image, the part at the top that looks like a head is the blurred tip of the nail. It looks cone shaped because the nail is obviously rotating both end over end, and around its axis. This, when blurred by continuous motion, would make this shape quite readily. Opinion: this image is in no way anomalous. --Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 20:40:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21421; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:38:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:38:45 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF6061.85444000.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst Reply-To: "bhorst ieee.org" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 (not) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:37:33 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 97 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"zoDJq.0.dE5.KpfWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have had my EV1 for a couple of weeks now, and would like to respond to a couple of the messages in this thread. The EV1 club email list has had an intense discussion about the incorrect news story about GM pulling the plug. Here is the official response from GM: Subject: [EV1-CLUB] A message from Ken Stewart Date sent: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:10:12 -0800 January 12, 2000 We've become aware of some articles and radio broadcasts recently that imply that "GM has pulled the plug on Electric Vehicles". I want to assure you that that is not true. As we talked at the December 5 birthday celebration in southern California, GM remains committed to electric vehicles and to the electric drivetrain systems the EV1 has helped us develop for other concepts. We have not made any changes in our policies or plans that would warrant any new news, and we have not given up on the program as these stories imply. The basis of the stories were apparently from comments made by Vice Chairman Harry Pearce at the North American International Auto Show this week when he said that the company had sufficient supply of EV1s on hand and said while GM could build more, there was "no particular need." I had hoped that the articles would have included a context reminding readers that we currently have a sufficient supply of vehicles already produced as compared to current demand. Unlike more conventional vehicles, our EV1 production has always been built in batches or blocks of about 500 cars. We built Block #1 in 1996 for the 1997 model year. We built Block #2 in 1998 and 1999. While we continue to market the Gen I and Gen II vehicles, GM made a decision to utilize the space in the EV1 assembly plant for other production uses. We have maintained all of the equipment and tooling for the EV1 -- none of it has been destroyed. The EV1 assembly line requires a relatively small amount of floor space and is designed with a freedom from many of the traditional complexities of high volume lines. For example, none of the assembly operations require trenches to be provided in the floor for under-vehicle access. Thus, we can reconstruct the production line should there be sufficient demand for additional EV1's. Further evidence of GM's commitment to electric vehicles is evident in the introduction of the Triax concept vehicles where Gen III electric drivetrain components would be used for a ZEV as well as a hybrid electric vehicle. In summary, there is no change in our plans that warrants a "story". We continue to work on all aspects of the marketing plan to grow the owner base and generate more customer enthusiasm. Ken Stewart Brand Manager Advanced Technology Vehicles _____________________________ As for some other messages trashing GM, I would agree only that GM could be doing much more to market the EV1. But they have done a huge public service by working out some very tough engineering problems for all-electric EVs, or any car using electric motors. If the NiMH car had come out first, people would not have dimissed all-electric vehicles so quickly. I rarely drop below half charge in a day of driving, and would much rather take the 10 seconds to plug it in at night than go to a gas station once a week. This is the first time since I was a teenager that I actually look for excuses to get in the car and drive somewhere. Its accelleration can completely blow away almost any ICE sports cars on the market. (0-180 in first gear, if there was not an electronic governer to limit top speed to 80) By the way, if any of you want to check out the EV1 club web page, it is at http://ev1-club.power.net/. At that site, you can also subscribe to the mail list. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 21:05:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08817; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:03:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:03:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3882A289.3325 suite224.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:03:05 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr References: <38825736.7E19 ca-ois.com> <3882733E.1C4B@suite224.net> <38828CA9.6AF5@ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AQ4iS3.0.c92.MAgWu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > It would seem to me that off the cuff, the general motion is towards the > right, down and inward toward the camera. I don't see how you obtain > motion away from the camera, unless you figure the second remote image > is smaller than the first one That was about it, Jim - I didn't check the full size photo again - does that show more of the trajectory? , but this effect may be due to the > rotation of the nail being "caught" at an instant that the nail is > leaning a bit inward by the time it gets to position 3 (the second > remote image). Well, if it's moving toward the camera, then this removes my problem with the impact location - good! Jim again: > This wispy trail is not following the feature of the nail head! It is > following the trail of the magnetic field line that goes from north to > south poles. Now it's my turn to say I can't see it, Jim! I never saw a magnetic line leave a pole, cross the centerline to the left, and then cross again to the right. I don't see it as following a magnetic line. Jim again: > Well, for one thing what kind of spotlight are you using? Could IT be > strobing? No, it's just a 60 Hz light bulb - and I know they do "pulse" somewhat as they burn. But, this was not strobing - in fact, the effect became clearer at 3 or 4 revs per second because my eye had more time to form an image at the "bright angle". > Photos taken of spinning propellers in presumably constant sunlight > exhibit little blurring in the middle, where the propeller shaft is, and > lots out towards the end of the propeller blades. Therefore I would > expect, given that our flash isn't strobing, a similar effect to occur > when viewing the nail, we should not be able to make out either extreme > end of the small nail in any of the successive remote images. That figures, but I must say that I can't make out a good image of the ends of the nail in any of the remote images. It's a toss-up for me. > > > Now, I may have the rotational dynamics screwed up a bit, but to me the > > probable rotation of the nail is a GIVEN. > > Yes. > > The very fact that the nail > > images appear to be roughly parallel supports my theory - it's the > > strobe and the camera geometry that determines the image position and > > thats why the nail images are parallel > > Nah. The camera and "strobe" (flash) geometry do not have a preferred > orientation up, down right or left in the experimental setup. They certainly do, Jim! They are FIXED during the test. That is what I meant. From their fixed position, the camera sees the remote images when the "bright spot image" is roughly in the same angular position. Still squinting, Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 21:10:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA00817; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:08:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:08:06 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:18:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20000117051828375.AAA73 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"1XNSv3.0.hC.rEgWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, I just went to the SEVA site at http://saccityweb.com/seva/ which led me to the SMUD site http://www.smud.org/evs/ which directed me to the GM site at http://www.gmev.com/ It's no wonder GM didn't sell any. They are not for sale... under any circumstances. Check out the pricing info page. It is without a doubt the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. First of all, they are only made available at certain, select dealerships in Arizona and California - nowhere else. Secondly, the price is OUTRAGEOUS - $33,000 - $49,000, depending on the battery pack. Third, the range for the lead acid models is only 45 miles. Fourth the charging stations are 220V instead of the more readily available 110V. You have to pay extra to have a charger installed. Fifth, and this is probably the real incentive killer, if you drive them over 36,000 miles in a year, you have to pay GM a 0.50 cent mileage charge!! What a complete, and utter joke! David Letterman's staff couldn't have written a better leasing policy. Take a look at the models that SEVA have converted. Mileage for the ones that I saw reportedly ran at 70mph for between 90 and 150 miles per charge. You can buy a used frame/body for about $500, convert it for $3000 (parts and labor), and it's yours to keep forever. My dad picked up a 1986 Toyota van down here in Florida last year with a fully functioning engine that was in excellent shape for $500. If I converted it, I would have plenty of room available for the additional batteries that would be necessary to get me 200 miles down the road or even farther. GM simply has no intention of ever going electric. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 22:26:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22174; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:24:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:24:47 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF6070.5784FC40.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst Reply-To: "bhorst ieee.org" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:23:39 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 74 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"xyc9z.0.KQ5.lMhWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In response to Michael Huffman's comments: It's no wonder GM didn't sell any. They are not for sale... under any circumstances. Check out the pricing info page. It is without a doubt the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. First of all, they are only made available at certain, select dealerships in Arizona and California - nowhere else. That is true, but not a problem in my case. I really view it as an extended beta test. Secondly, the price is OUTRAGEOUS - $33,000 - $49,000, depending on the battery pack. But that does not include the tax credits. I got $9000 in credits. Still pricey, but so are alot of sports cars. You also have not included the present value of the fuel savings which can be half to 1/3 the cost of an ICE (electric car dialect for Internal Combustion Engine vehicle). Third, the range for the lead acid models is only 45 miles. That sounds like old information on 1st generation lead-acid batteries. The NiMH batteries seem to get between 100 and 120 until it goes into low power mode, then maybe 10 more. Fourth the charging stations are 220V instead of the more readily available 110V. To get any reasonable charge in an hour or two, or a full charge in 6, you need 220. By this reasoning, no one would ever buy an electric dryer. With a range of 100 miles you rarely need public chargers at all. You have to pay extra to have a charger installed. Yes. But a small cost compared to the car. Fifth, and this is probably the real incentive killer, if you drive them over 36,000 miles in a year, you have to pay GM a 0.50 cent mileage charge!! Actually, the 36,000 is over the 3 year lease, not per year. But I generally never exceed 12000 miles/year in a car, so this did not bother me at all. This is still primarily a commuter car and will usually be a second car in a family. What a complete, and utter joke! David Letterman's staff couldn't have written a better leasing policy. Take a look at the models that SEVA have converted. Mileage for the ones that I saw reportedly ran at 70mph for between 90 and 150 miles per charge. For people that have the time to do a conversion, it would make an interesting project. But conversions have nowhere near the refinement of the EV1. And there is no way a converted car will have higher energy efficiency -- 150 miles and 70 mph are possible, but not at the same time. Maybe you have to see the EV1 to appreciate it. It even has decent trunk space instead of a trunk full of batteries. GM simply has no intention of ever going electric. The rumor is that with volumes still low, GM is losing quite a bit of money on each car. They will probably have to lose alot more money before volumes are high enough to get them in the black. So they really have little incentive to promote the car right now. The one thing that might change the equation is the new carpool law that goes into effect in July. When you sit for an hour a day in bumper to bumper traffic while the carpool lane is nearly empty, that $500 a month doesn't look so bad. If you saved an hour a day, 20 days a month, if your time is worth $25 an hour, that pays for the whole lease. And that does not take into account all the money you would be paying for gas and maintenance of an ICE. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 22:32:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24924; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:31:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:31:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3882B63D.24C4 ca-ois.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:27:09 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr References: <38825736.7E19 ca-ois.com> <3882733E.1C4B@suite224.net> <38828CA9.6AF5@ca-ois.com> <3882A289.3325@suite224.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Fv_Sz.0.M56.BThWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Golly, people!! Nobody sees anything anomalous about this picture? http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html Do your own enhancements or whatever, but to me, the idea that only the nail head leaves a continuous trail as it spins around, and NOT the whole rest of the nail in this shot, means that the whole lot of you are just not interested enough to do any serious thinking about this. Fine, I think vortex is just become a stale old smoke filled room populated by stodgy clubhousers who are only happy when the "status quo" can carry the day. For criminy sakes that wispy trail is running loops around each image. That's NOT what anybody calls "anomalous"? If the shutter was open the whole time nothing of what I see makes ANY sense in continuous terms. The bullet is blurred into indistinguishability, moving too FAST to be stopped at 1/2000 sec, but not the nail which is more or less distinct but only intermittantly, and the supposed nail head alleged to be the cause of the wispy trail, and A PART OF THE DISTINGUISHABLE NAIL, well that's obviously in a category all by itself! Three distinct different things going on in one photo and everyone thinks this is just OK. Normal. What planet am I on? I want outta here! I'm going to find some place that is not dominated by a ranting atheist. Alt.sci.physics.new-theories was a lot more open minded than this place, I can tell you that much. I can't believe this... See ya! Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 23:34:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA05172; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:31:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:31:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000116203022234.AAA224 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:08:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"utAAn2.0.kG1.lLiWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:28:10 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>***{Yes, another good thing to do. Also, since Mizuno noted in one of his >>e-mails to Scott that the excess heat kicks in when the cell starts putting >>out lots of RF, that would also be an important parameter to measure, >[snip] >Alarm bell! RF output is indicative of sparking and current spikes. Just the >sort of electrical noise that might throw a meter off? ***{I know. I pointed that out a week or so ago, in another post which you apparently missed. However, there is also a possibility that the effect is real and that the RF correlates with it. Thus Scott needs to discount that possibility before focusing too closely on the possibility of metering problems. He should eliminate the OU possibility first, by treating it seriously. --MJ}*** > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 00:13:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA16485; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:12:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:12:53 -0800 Message-ID: <003501bf60ca$eeb89e00$4b8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <00a201bf6085$0bd9c040$d4451d26 fjsparber> <9q558so233b6d7rnh1j1s4e47gvv1r4j1j@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Pair Production and OU Effects on a Hot Metal Surface Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:12:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"e5gv02.0.V14.4yiWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Pair Production and OU Effects on a Hot Metal Surface Robin wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:50:58 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >putting a negative > >potential on the sheath of an immersion heater could speed things up enormously. > Well Frederick, since you already have the immersion heater, and a couple of > flashlight batteries, you should be able to try this in about 5 mins? I don't got any flashlight batteries, and I burnt out the immersion heater that I had, but if the concentration of positive ions near the heater sheath is high enough, you will get high field emission of electrons (same as the effect with molten metal cathodes)from it without using the batteries. Go figure. :-) Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 00:18:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA18146; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:17:31 -0800 Message-ID: <003a01bf60cb$960375e0$4b8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Biomass "value-added" Products Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:16:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6088.80C55CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"g6RnT3.0.OR4.R0jWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6088.80C55CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About time. http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/01/14/clinton.biotechnology.ap/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6088.80C55CE0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN - Clinton to request funding increase for 'bioenergy' product research - January 14, 2000.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN - Clinton to request funding increase for 'bioenergy' product research - January 14, 2000.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/01/14/clinton.biotechnology.ap/index.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/01/14/clinton.biotechnology.ap/index.html Modified=00CA645CCB60BF0175 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6088.80C55CE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 00:56:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25152; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:55:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:55:28 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF6085.91198970 istf-1-86.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:55:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF6085.91198970" Resent-Message-ID: <"0N-PP2.0.w86._ZjWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF6085.91198970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Ostrowski wrote: >Nobody sees anything anomalous about this picture? [snip] >means that the whole lot of you are just not interested enough to >do any serious thinking about this. [snip] >What planet am I on? I want outta here!=20 {snip] Jim, a couple of suggestions... First, do an experiment: Take a nail, a nice new bright one. Maybe bend it like the one in the = photograph, but you don't need to. Then shine a light on it, a nice bright light, something like a small = spot light; but a normal bare incandescent light bulb will do. Do this = in a darkened room with no other light source. Make the light's angle on = the nail similar to that in the photograph. Now rotate the nail, similar to the path of the nail in the picture. Do = it slowly. Look at it. Observe the changes in reflection of the light. You will notice that the head always has a bright spot; that's due to = its curvature and the angle of the incident light. You will also notice that the body of the nail becomes bright, dims, and = then becomes bright again - with every 180 degrees of turn. Just like in = the picture. No high-speed action required. You may also notice that the = point of the nail displays a different pattern - does your nail have = several flat sides that make up the point? Does that make another wispy = trail, but maybe not as continuous as that of the head? Second suggestion: Relax. Don't get into head-to-head sub-flamewars about philosophy - and = ignore those who do if you can - they distract from the real reasons why = we're here. Instead, do what you suggest - "some serious thinking about = this". Try to think more about the simple mechanics of the experiments = and phenomena that you observe. Simple mechanics can result in = complex-looking phenomena. Most of us on this list are looking for the unusual, just like you. But = we first try to apply a good background in what we already know about = science to see if there's really anything unusual going on. 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Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:10:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:10:26 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF6087.A9E0D9C0 istf-1-86.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:10:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF6087.A9E0D9C0" Resent-Message-ID: <"cv0y1.0.PC7.2ojWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF6087.A9E0D9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oops... cut off the tail of my last post; the last paragraph should = read: Most of us on this list are looking for the unusual, just like you. But = we first try to apply a good background in what we already know about = science to see if there's really anything unusual going on. If simple = standard science can reasonably account for a phenomenon, it's highly = unlikely that there's anything more to it. 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YOU can use this to put a thin oxide layer on Pd or Ni that is going to serve as a Cathode as in the F&P cell. This is in line with what Edmund Storms suggests as being necessary for OU/CF effects at the cathode surface. The MxOy coating can lower the work function so that the H+ or heavier K+ ions can extract electrons from the heated cathode. Do this make sense to your Antipodal Dendrites? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 02:07:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA07803; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 02:05:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 02:05:59 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pair Production and OU Effects on a Hot Metal Surface Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:05:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <005e01bf60d7$f7c9dce0$4b8e1d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <005e01bf60d7$f7c9dce0$4b8e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA07785 Resent-Message-ID: <"mjDyt.0.rv1.7ckWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 02:45:17 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >This is in line with what Edmund Storms suggests as being necessary for OU/CF effects at the >cathode surface. The MxOy coating can lower the work function so that the H+ or heavier K+ ions >can extract electrons from the heated cathode. > >Do this make sense to your Antipodal Dendrites? :-) The process does, but personally I don't think oxides are the key to success (now just watch everyone prove me wrong all at once :). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 02:38:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA11704; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 02:37:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 02:37:28 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 05:47:47 -0500 Message-ID: <20000117104747968.AAA255 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"a9TQS.0.os2.e3lWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob writes: >In response to Michael Huffman's comments: > >It's no wonder GM didn't sell any. They are not for sale... under any >circumstances. Check out the pricing info page. It is without a doubt the >most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. First of all, they are only made >available at certain, select dealerships in Arizona and California - >nowhere >else. > >That is true, but not a problem in my case. I really view it as an >extended beta test. Well Bob, that's a very Zen attitude for you to have, but the fact remains that GM just may well have sold a few more of these if indeed they were for sale, and they were available to the other 48 states in the Union, not to mention the rest of the places that GM sells their products - i.e. the rest of the entire world. A reasonable price would have helped, too. >Secondly, the price is OUTRAGEOUS - $33,000 - $49,000, depending on >the battery pack. > >But that does not include the tax credits. I got $9000 in credits. Still >pricey, but so are alot of sports cars. You also have not included the >present value of the fuel savings which can be half to 1/3 the cost of an >ICE (electric car dialect for Internal Combustion Engine vehicle). Well, the tax credits are an interesting issue, since you've brought that up. I didn't realize they were part of the package. I see from the rest of your post that you've rented "the full boat" in car dealer parlance, including the NiMH battery pack, so the car that you are renting has a nominal value of just under $50,000 excluding FOB, sales tax etc.. You get 9 grand in tax credits over the course of the lease, so you pay $500 per month rental for 36 months, and GM nominally loses the rest for a net Federal tax deduction for them of around $37,000 per vehicle rented. That's a better deal for GM than some of their defense projects - not all of course, but certainly some. You are also correct about the fuel savings which would apply to any electrical vehicle, and also correct about the deal for you. You actually end up paying only $3000 per year in rent for a commuter vehicle after your tax credits kick in. I guess the US taxpayer picks up all of the rest, or is your tax credit a state thing? Either way, that really is outstanding... >Third, the range for the lead acid models is only 45 >miles. > >That sounds like old information on 1st generation lead-acid batteries. > The NiMH batteries seem to get between 100 and 120 until it goes into low >power mode, then maybe 10 more. That's the information that is on their webpage for what is currently available with the bottom of the line PbA models. >Fourth the charging stations are 220V instead of the more readily >available 110V. > >To get any reasonable charge in an hour or two, or a full charge in 6, you >need 220. By this reasoning, no one would ever buy an electric dryer. > With a range of 100 miles you rarely need public chargers at all. I see from your e-mail address that you are a member of the IEEE, so I take it you know a little about electricity. You probably also know that the output voltage of the charger would match the working voltage of the vehicle's battery pack, which would probably be roughly the same as the voltage of the motor. In other words, the input voltage to the charger would be irrelevant. Most residential electric dryers come in both 110 and 220 models. The total wattage would necessarily need to be high enough, though if you were wanting to quick charge, but I would think that 4 or 5kw would be enough. What is the total input wattage on yours? >You have to pay extra to have a charger installed. > >Yes. But a small cost compared to the car. I've seen EVs made by other manufacturers that come with a small, onboard, 110 battery charger. I'm just supposing here, but I'm assuming that they are intelligent enough to be set to the maximum amperage that the supplying source would allow. In other words, you could plug it in anywhere, check the breaker amperage on that line, and set the charger for the appropriate level. If you were not sure what the max amperage was, and couldn't check, you could just set it for 10 amps or something like that. > Fifth, > and this is probably the real incentive killer, if you drive them over >36,000 miles in a year, you have to pay GM a 0.50 cent mileage charge!! > > Actually, the 36,000 is over the 3 year lease, not per year. But I >generally never exceed 12000 miles/year in a car, so this did not bother me >at all. This is still primarily a commuter car and will usually be a >second car in a family. Well then, that's 3 times worse than I thought. I read that wrong, entirely. That entire concept adds another whole new dimension to the already weird economics of this, especially since you are renting as opposed to buying. On the one hand, if you drive it less than the 36,000 miles, you are paying rent for something that you are not using. On the other, if you go over the amount, you either have to pay the 50 cents per mile, or park it and continue to pay the rent. It's just too screwy for me. >For people that have the time to do a conversion, it would make an >interesting project. But conversions have nowhere near the refinement of >the EV1. And there is no way a converted car will have higher energy >efficiency -- 150 miles and 70 mph are possible, but not at the same time. > Maybe you have to see the EV1 to appreciate it. It even has decent trunk >space instead of a trunk full of batteries. The EV1 car is lightweight, and aerodynamic - more so than most others, but not all others. You are also correct about the batteries in the trunk. Both of the conversion cars that I saw had the trunkspace full of batteries. The owners made the choice of using PbA batteries for economic reasons, which took up a lot more room. The pick-up that I saw had approximately 1/4th of the truck bed taken up with batteries. This Toyota van that I'm thinking of doing has a bunch of room underneath it that would be available for batteries, though. I wouldn't have to sacrifice any of the passenger or cargo area at all. I also would be keeping the van after the $3000 upgrade, as opposed to renting it, and I wouldn't be allowing GM to rip off the US treasury to the tune of $37,000. >GM simply has no intention of ever going electric. > >The rumor is that with volumes still low, GM is losing quite a bit of >money on each car. They will probably have to lose alot more money before >volumes are high enough to get them in the black. So they really have >little incentive to promote the car right now. The one thing that might >change the equation is the new carpool law that goes into effect in July. > When you sit for an hour a day in bumper to bumper traffic while the >carpool lane is nearly empty, that $500 a month doesn't look so bad. If >you saved an hour a day, 20 days a month, if your time is worth $25 an >hour, that pays for the whole lease. And that does not take into account >all the money you would be paying for gas and maintenance of an ICE. > >-- Bob Using your $25 an hour figure, by the time you figure in your tax credits, the State is actually paying you $250 a month to drive to work in the fast lane, and if this actually did catch on, GM wouldn't have to pay another dime in taxes for the rest of eternity. Am I getting this right, or is the absurdity of this making me a bit wobblier than normal? Was this a "by invitation only" type of promotion, by any chance? I've never heard of such a thing in my life. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 03:25:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA17971; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 03:24:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 03:24:36 -0800 Message-ID: <007e01bf60e5$b8488180$4b8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Pair Production and OU Effects on a Hot Metal Surface Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 04:23:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"MgzoP3.0.hO4.qllWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While you got your motor running, Robin: Lead Peroxide, PbO2 (same as used in Lead Acid Batteries) plated on the F&P Pd or Ni Cathodes, might prove interesting if the Quasinetron/Quasidineutron forms and Fissions the Lead. I'm not too savvy on how to form the PbO2 on the Pd or Ni, Lead,or other metalsand how hot you could make a cartridge heater/cathode with these coatings on it. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 06:30:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18671; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 06:29:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 06:29:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000117104747968.AAA255 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:27:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Resent-Message-ID: <"YjpKc.0.dZ4.WToWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Bob writes: > >>In response to Michael Huffman's comments: >> >>It's no wonder GM didn't sell any. They are not for sale... under any >>circumstances. Check out the pricing info page. It is without a doubt the >>most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. First of all, they are only made >>available at certain, select dealerships in Arizona and California - >>nowhere >>else. >> >>That is true, but not a problem in my case. I really view it as an >>extended beta test. > >Well Bob, that's a very Zen attitude for you to have, but the fact remains >that GM just may well have sold a few more of these if indeed they were for >sale, and they were available to the other 48 states in the Union, not to >mention the rest of the places that GM sells their products - i.e. the rest >of the entire world. A reasonable price would have helped, too. > >>Secondly, the price is OUTRAGEOUS - $33,000 - $49,000, depending on >>the battery pack. >> >>But that does not include the tax credits. I got $9000 in credits. Still >>pricey, but so are alot of sports cars. You also have not included the >>present value of the fuel savings which can be half to 1/3 the cost of an >>ICE (electric car dialect for Internal Combustion Engine vehicle). > >Well, the tax credits are an interesting issue, since you've brought that >up. I didn't realize they were part of the package. I see from the rest of >your post that you've rented "the full boat" in car dealer parlance, >including the NiMH battery pack, so the car that you are renting has a >nominal value of just under $50,000 excluding FOB, sales tax etc.. You get >9 grand in tax credits over the course of the lease, so you pay $500 per >month rental for 36 months, and GM nominally loses the rest for a net >Federal tax deduction for them of around $37,000 per vehicle rented. That's >a better deal for GM than some of their defense projects - not all of >course, but certainly some. You are also correct about the fuel savings >which would apply to any electrical vehicle, and also correct about the deal >for you. You actually end up paying only $3000 per year in rent for a >commuter vehicle after your tax credits kick in. I guess the US taxpayer >picks up all of the rest, or is your tax credit a state thing? Either way, >that really is outstanding... > >>Third, the range for the lead acid models is only 45 >>miles. >> >>That sounds like old information on 1st generation lead-acid batteries. >> The NiMH batteries seem to get between 100 and 120 until it goes into low >>power mode, then maybe 10 more. > >That's the information that is on their webpage for what is currently >available with the bottom of the line PbA models. > >>Fourth the charging stations are 220V instead of the more readily >>available 110V. >> >>To get any reasonable charge in an hour or two, or a full charge in 6, you >>need 220. By this reasoning, no one would ever buy an electric dryer. >> With a range of 100 miles you rarely need public chargers at all. > >I see from your e-mail address that you are a member of the IEEE, so I take >it you know a little about electricity. You probably also know that the >output voltage of the charger would match the working voltage of the >vehicle's battery pack, which would probably be roughly the same as the >voltage of the motor. In other words, the input voltage to the charger >would be irrelevant. Most residential electric dryers come in both 110 and >220 models. The total wattage would necessarily need to be high enough, >though if you were wanting to quick charge, but I would think that 4 or 5kw >would be enough. What is the total input wattage on yours? > >>You have to pay extra to have a charger installed. >> >>Yes. But a small cost compared to the car. > >I've seen EVs made by other manufacturers that come with a small, onboard, >110 battery charger. I'm just supposing here, but I'm assuming that they >are intelligent enough to be set to the maximum amperage that the supplying >source would allow. In other words, you could plug it in anywhere, check >the breaker amperage on that line, and set the charger for the appropriate >level. If you were not sure what the max amperage was, and couldn't check, >you could just set it for 10 amps or something like that. > >> Fifth, >> and this is probably the real incentive killer, if you drive them over >>36,000 miles in a year, you have to pay GM a 0.50 cent mileage charge!! >> >> Actually, the 36,000 is over the 3 year lease, not per year. But I >>generally never exceed 12000 miles/year in a car, so this did not bother me >>at all. This is still primarily a commuter car and will usually be a >>second car in a family. > >Well then, that's 3 times worse than I thought. I read that wrong, >entirely. That entire concept adds another whole new dimension to the >already weird economics of this, especially since you are renting as opposed >to buying. On the one hand, if you drive it less than the 36,000 miles, you >are paying rent for something that you are not using. On the other, if you >go over the amount, you either have to pay the 50 cents per mile, or park it >and continue to pay the rent. It's just too screwy for me. > >>For people that have the time to do a conversion, it would make an >>interesting project. But conversions have nowhere near the refinement of >>the EV1. And there is no way a converted car will have higher energy >>efficiency -- 150 miles and 70 mph are possible, but not at the same time. >> Maybe you have to see the EV1 to appreciate it. It even has decent trunk >>space instead of a trunk full of batteries. > >The EV1 car is lightweight, and aerodynamic - more so than most others, but >not all others. You are also correct about the batteries in the trunk. >Both of the conversion cars that I saw had the trunkspace full of batteries. >The owners made the choice of using PbA batteries for economic reasons, >which took up a lot more room. The pick-up that I saw had approximately >1/4th of the truck bed taken up with batteries. This Toyota van that I'm >thinking of doing has a bunch of room underneath it that would be available >for batteries, though. I wouldn't have to sacrifice any of the passenger or >cargo area at all. I also would be keeping the van after the $3000 upgrade, >as opposed to renting it, and I wouldn't be allowing GM to rip off the US >treasury to the tune of $37,000. > >>GM simply has no intention of ever going electric. >> >>The rumor is that with volumes still low, GM is losing quite a bit of >>money on each car. They will probably have to lose alot more money before >>volumes are high enough to get them in the black. So they really have >>little incentive to promote the car right now. The one thing that might >>change the equation is the new carpool law that goes into effect in July. >> When you sit for an hour a day in bumper to bumper traffic while the >>carpool lane is nearly empty, that $500 a month doesn't look so bad. If >>you saved an hour a day, 20 days a month, if your time is worth $25 an >>hour, that pays for the whole lease. And that does not take into account >>all the money you would be paying for gas and maintenance of an ICE. >> >>-- Bob > >Using your $25 an hour figure, by the time you figure in your tax credits, >the State is actually paying you $250 a month to drive to work in the fast >lane, and if this actually did catch on, GM wouldn't have to pay another >dime in taxes for the rest of eternity. Am I getting this right, or is the >absurdity of this making me a bit wobblier than normal? Was this a "by >invitation only" type of promotion, by any chance? I've never heard of such >a thing in my life. ***{It's the way fascism works, Knuke. The big companies spend millions interacting with their regulators, via paid lobbyists, gifts, paid junkets to expensive resorts for "conferences", "consulting" fees, etc. They play golf together, patronize the same whores, attend the same parties, and on and on. In effect, *they* write the regulations which are applied to their industries. There is no way the "public" can oppose this, because the public has a short attention span: they are focused on an industry only during the brief interval following some spate of adverse publicity. During that interval, contributions are high to so called "public interest" lobbies who focus on that issue, and pressure is exerted--e.g., to get a big company's hand out of the taxpayer's pocket--but in the long run, on average, the big companies dominate the regulatory game because their focus is constant and intense, while that of "public interest" groups is fickle and ever varying. Thus, over the long haul, the big companies are able to write the regulations their way. Result: they use them to stifle competition, and to fleece the taxpayer. The only way to stop it is to do away with all regulation of business--that is: to implement capitalism. Under capitalism, the big companies in each industry are regulated by their competition: by the threats posed by the little companies in their own industries, and by big companies in *other* industries, which will enter new markets if profits there get high enough. Unfortunately, it takes years of study and thought to comprehend the inner workings of fascism. The regulatory structure, which is supposedly there to "protect the public," seems appealing to the average person, and, since average people dominate decision making under one man-one vote, they always screw themselves (and the rest of us) by supporting fascism in preference to capitalism. The result is a constant proliferation of regulations and laws, as duly elected liars, crooks, and imbeciles "protect us" by stripping our rights away, thereby making the situation worse and worse, until, finally, the public supports candidates who will impose a dictatorship, and the system collapses entirely. --MJ}*** > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 07:01:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27874; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:00:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:00:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000117100032.007a55d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:00:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 Run 4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000116014151.006fbb94 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000115220441.007fc390 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000112081800.01dfb9a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000112015644.007ccbb0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.20000111215120.006feb38 mail.eden.com> <20000112024218578.AAA84 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0DUpd3.0.Sp6.dwoWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz asks: What does Mizuno's water purifying machine actually do to clean the water? Electrolysis! No kidding. It is an American made Millipore Milli-Q "Labo" purifier. You can probably learn about it at www.millipore.com. The anode is another likely source of contamination. Scott Little writes: The deliberate scratches, for example, are probably gone within the first 5 minutes, and the runs are usually either 15 minutes or 30 minutes long. I do not recall seeing any tendency in their results for the excess heat to occur mainly at the start of the run. Jed? I agree. The heat correlates with power density and temperature. The scratches probably do go away, but perhaps they help trigger the reaction first by exposing more metal surface. It's a bit like leaving an air gap between kindling when you start a fire. Robin van Spaandonk writes: Alarm bell! RF output is indicative of sparking and current spikes. Just the sort of electrical noise that might throw a meter off? Not a problem. They use two meters with different specifications, and they agree to within less than 1%. Noise might affect a meter, but it cannot affect two meters exactly the same way. Also, the onset of extreme RF does not change the meter readings measurably. It does affect the thermocouples, which are right in the cell. That does not matter because the only two temperature points that matter are from before power is turned on and after it is turned off. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 09:19:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15499; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:17:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:17:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:14:02 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200001171714.MAA09861 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications Resent-Message-ID: <"3n1eQ.0.5o3.3xqWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I tracked down the patent recently issued for the Media Fusion Co., plan to communicate over power lines. The patent is a more high-level document, and simply calls out using maser techniques to inject their data. It speaks of the population inversion from the maser action, going into no more detail of their plans. However, there is no particular atomic population to invert, unless the air around the powerlines? But, I've basically no knowledge of maser techniques. In any case, my BS-meter is pegged! http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05982276__ Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 10:01:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32069; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:59:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:59:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000117115522.017f5f98 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:55:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Magnetic Communications In-Reply-To: <200001171714.MAA09861 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gcI6C.0.oq7.WXrWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:14 PM 1/17/00 -0500, Jim Uban wrote: > >I tracked down the patent recently issued for >the Media Fusion Co., plan to communicate over >power lines. The patent is a more high-level >document, and simply calls out using maser >techniques to inject their data. It speaks >of the population inversion from the maser >action, going into no more detail of their >plans. However, there is no particular >atomic population to invert... exactly! What could they be talking about? >In any case, my BS-meter is pegged! Mine, too. It looks like another technoscam. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 10:30:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12564; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:28:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:28:08 -0800 Message-Id: <200001171828.NAA03821 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:23:46 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wWw5T.0.E43.uyrWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Do your own enhancements or whatever, but to me, the idea that only the > nail head leaves a continuous trail as it spins around, and NOT the > whole rest of the nail in this shot, > means that the whole lot of you are just not interested enough to do any > serious thinking about this. Jim, we looked at the image, and came to the conclusion that it was not anomalous. Read Dan Quickert's post. That is an experiment, albeit a simple one. It provides an explanation based on how light reflects off the nail. I'm sorry, but I refuse to see something anomalous where there is nothing anomalous. > For criminy sakes that wispy trail is running loops around each image. > That's NOT what anybody calls "anomalous"? No. I call is reflection from the side of the nail head. > stopped at 1/2000 sec, but not the nail which is more or less distinct > but only intermittantly, and the supposed nail head alleged to be the > cause of the wispy trail, and A PART OF THE DISTINGUISHABLE NAIL, The nail is not clearly defined! Look at it again. The edges are blurred, just as in the propeller example you yourself gave. This is a continuous effect, not discontinuous. The wispy trail is the only part of the nail visible in some parts of the image due to lighting. > I'm going to find some place that is not dominated by a ranting atheist. > Alt.sci.physics.new-theories was a lot more open minded than this place, > I can tell you that much. We aren't dominated by a 'ranting atheist', Jim. We've got a good collection of people here who do what science is all about: experiments. Dan just did one, and it provided an explanation for your photograph. John Schnurer does them. There are too many on this list who do them to name. Even I do them. And when I find something unusual, the first thing I ask myself is: "What did I do wrong?" If I find a mundane explanation for it that fits better than something anomalous, I use it. That's what it is all about: finding out what does and does not happen under a given condition. Don't get so bent out of shape. --Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 10:40:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16420; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:37:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:37:56 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:48:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20000117184814406.AAA240 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"a0QFl1.0.O04.46sWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh No...... Mitch writes: >***{It's the way fascism works, Knuke. (snip Mitch's mini-treatise on how companies work to enslave people.) The only way to stop it is to do >away with all regulation of business--that is: to implement capitalism. (keep Mitch's solution above, and give my brief non-solution below.) I happen to agree with much of what you have said about how some companies have and continue to operate, but I disagree with your solution because it just doesn't work all the time, either. I've visited, lived and worked in 25 different countries, and seen various different social, religious and economic systems in action. None of them worked well all the time. I am also not going to argue the point with you because a) I am a bigger hardhead than everyone else on this list combined, even with ***you*** included. b) I would inadvertantly offend just about everyone on this list in the course of the debate, and I don't want that. c) I am on the list to learn more about Science, and to share what little I know about it. d) And this is perhaps the worst of it, but I really don't have a coherent, alternative solution to offer you, and I have seriously given this subject years of thought and effort. If I ever do come up with something that is satisfying to me personally as a solution, I will definitely look you up, because next to myself, you are as tortured an individual as I have ever encountered. Till then, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 11:04:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24937; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:02:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:02:24 -0800 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:01:51 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 In-Reply-To: <20000115163032500.AAA276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kxZQB2.0.Z56.0TsWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke The EV1 is still on sale and will be so for a while according to reports on the Electric Vehicle newsgroup. GM shut down its production line, but have about 500 of them available at this time I read. They will reopen the line if they have enough sales, they say. I drove the EV1 for a weekend, and it is a very nice car, but I was able to buy a Tropica for less money, and I still own it after three years, unlike the EV1 which you can only lease. Hank On Sat, 15 Jan 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > Gnorts, > > I recall someone saying recently on Vortex that they were purchasing or > planning to purchase an EV1 from GM. If you haven't already ordered it, you > might want to do so quickly. I read a couple of days ago in the local paper > that GM had stopped producing the electric car because it competed with the > hybrid vehicle line that they were offering. GM says says that they still > have some EV1 models in stock, so it is still possible to get one. It may > even gain collector value over the years, who knows. > > When I first read about this, I passed it off as just another example of a > large corporation acting in its own self interests, but then I remembered > the business about California passing legislation disallowing any auto > manufacturer access to the Californian market if they didn't allow what I > thought was a "zero pollution" alternative vehicle. Have the hybrids > managed to fit this description either legally or in reality, or did I > misinterpret the Californian legislation. Anybody have better details? > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 11:19:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30785; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:17:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:17:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000117141711.0079e9c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:17:11 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 In-Reply-To: <20000117184814406.AAA240 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZMOqZ2.0.rW7.KhsWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >I've visited, lived and worked in >25 different countries, and seen various different social, religious and >economic systems in action. None of them worked well all the time. Arguments like this begin to sound like the Garrison Keillor standard: "all of the children are above average." What can it mean to assert that all social & economic systems, in all nations, "do not work" or that they are all unsatisfactory? I suppose it means they do not meet some ideal standard, or that the speaker can think of improvements. It does not necessarily mean that the speaker could actually implement his pet solutions, or that his ideas would work better than the present ones. I myself distrust ideal solution sets because, as Voltaire put it, "the best is the enemy of the good." Any programmer can test an application for a few weeks and then write a long list of design faults, weaknesses, and clumsy and aesthetically unpleasing aspects of it. An automotive engineer can test drive a car and give you a list of the compromises & problems in the design. That does not mean the programmer or engineer could actually do a better job; it simply means that people can imagine more than they can accomplish. That's good, but it is old news. Anyway, getting back the topic of this thread, the GM EV1 was never a practical, economically viable product. There was never any possibility it could be sold at a profit, or that a significant fraction of the buyers could afford it, or anything like it. It was overengineered and too ambitious. In other words, it was the "best" which is the enemy of "good enough." The same goes for the GM and Ford hybrid electric vehicles, which are being rushed to roll-out in a panic, in response to Toyota and Honda. The Japanese hybrid vehicles are practical, cheap enough, and good enough. They could be manufactured and sold at a profit in huge numbers, and they would cut pollution radically and reduce fuel consumption enough to end most U.S. oil imports. The U.S. automaker's designs are a useless tour de force. U.S. gasoline prices would have to increase many times over before consumers and automakers get serious about fuel economy and pollution. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 12:16:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16791; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:14:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:14:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000117141106.017faf18 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:11:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mizuno300 - RF signals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ns_Hv.0.F64.jWtWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Today, I ran my incandescent W cell with an AM radio nearby. The radio provides a very sensitive indication (via a strong noise signal) of the glow discharge process. In fact, the radio starts making lots of noise at around 70 volts before you can see any light coming from the cell (in a room with normal daytime lighting). The radio signal also changes significantly when the discharge transitions from "sparkly" mode (lower voltages), where the cathode is more-or-less cold and covered with dancing white sparks, to "incandescent" mode (higher voltages), where the cathode glows orange-hot and has fewer dancing sparks over its surface. In incandescent mode, you can hear a rumbling sound in the radio signal apparently caused by the erratically expanding/collapsing gas sheath around the cathode. This behavior is also apparent in the current traces which show the cell current actually going off and on at few-millisecond intervals (see the last trace at http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html). I varied the cell voltage around (140-180 volts) while in incandescent mode and did not observe any significant changes in the sound of the RF signals. There is no apparent peak of RF activity in this range. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 13:11:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01164; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:10:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:10:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3882B63D.24C4 ca-ois.com> References: <38825736.7E19 ca-ois.com> <3882733E.1C4B@suite224.net> <38828CA9.6AF5 ca-ois.com> <3882A289.3325@suite224.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:07:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The "wispy trail" in Fig6hr Resent-Message-ID: <"9iS82.0.5I.hKuWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Golly, people!! > >Nobody sees anything anomalous about this picture? > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html > >Do your own enhancements or whatever, but to me, the idea that only the >nail head leaves a continuous trail as it spins around, and NOT the >whole rest of the nail in this shot, >means that the whole lot of you are just not interested enough to do any >serious thinking about this. Fine, I think vortex is just become a stale >old smoke filled room populated by stodgy clubhousers who are only happy >when the "status quo" can carry the day. > >For criminy sakes that wispy trail is running loops around each image. >That's NOT what anybody calls "anomalous"? If the shutter was open the >whole time nothing of what I see makes ANY sense in continuous terms. >The bullet is blurred into indistinguishability, moving too FAST to be >stopped at 1/2000 sec, but not the nail which is more or less distinct >but only intermittantly, and the supposed nail head alleged to be the >cause of the wispy trail, and A PART OF THE DISTINGUISHABLE NAIL, well >that's obviously in a category all by itself! Three distinct different >things going on in one photo and everyone thinks this is just OK. >Normal. > >What planet am I on? I want outta here! > >I'm going to find some place that is not dominated by a ranting atheist. >Alt.sci.physics.new-theories was a lot more open minded than this place, >I can tell you that much. > >I can't believe this... ***{Intellectual dominance is based on intimidation, not reason. Those who seek intellectual dominance have a very specific and easily recognizable modus operandi: they seek to buttress weak arguments by attacking the character, intelligence, knowledge, etc., of their opponents. In a nut shell, they introduce irrelevant pejoratives into discussions. The idea, apparently, is that if they can silence their opponents, they can *appear* to be right even when, in fact, they are wrong. I think it is crystal clear which of us employs such techniques and which does not. --MJ}*** > >See ya! > >Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 14:18:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21895; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:15:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:15:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000117141106.017faf18 mail.eden.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:11:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - RF signals Resent-Message-ID: <"FMNMV.0.1M5.SIvWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Today, I ran my incandescent W cell with an AM radio nearby. The radio >provides a very sensitive indication (via a strong noise signal) of the >glow discharge process. In fact, the radio starts making lots of noise at >around 70 volts before you can see any light coming from the cell (in a >room with normal daytime lighting). > >The radio signal also changes significantly when the discharge transitions >from "sparkly" mode (lower voltages), where the cathode is more-or-less >cold and covered with dancing white sparks, to "incandescent" mode (higher >voltages), where the cathode glows orange-hot and has fewer dancing sparks >over its surface. > >In incandescent mode, you can hear a rumbling sound in the radio signal >apparently caused by the erratically expanding/collapsing gas sheath around >the cathode. This behavior is also apparent in the current traces which >show the cell current actually going off and on at few-millisecond >intervals (see the last trace at >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html). > >I varied the cell voltage around (140-180 volts) while in incandescent mode >and did not observe any significant changes in the sound of the RF signals. > There is no apparent peak of RF activity in this range. ***{Did you turn your volume down so that the sound of the static is just barely discernible, and then search through the band with the cell in incandescent mode? If there are peaks in the amplitude of the static at specific frequencies, that should enable you to find them. And if there are no such peaks, then try a CB radio, a short wave radio, etc. There simply has to be a peak somewhere in the RF band! (If there isn't, this system is different from any that I've ever heard of, and different from anything I can imagine.) If you find a peak, but it doesn't change as you vary the voltage, then that isn't the peak you are looking for. Move on to another peak. Eventually, you will find an amplitude peak that varies as you vary the voltage. That's what you are looking for. Once you find such a peak, then leave the radio on that frequency and vary the voltage in an attempt to maximize the amplitude of the AM signal, and, when you have found the voltage that does so, do a full calorimetric run at that voltage. To assist you in monitoring the peak, run the radio speaker circuit to channel 1 of your scope. (The voltage trace is too repetitious to monitor anyway.) If the search for a frequency at which there is a voltage correlated amplitude peak fails, then maybe there is a voltage correlated frequency peak. That is, perhaps the frequency of the radio emissions is proportional to the intensity of the CF effect. To test that possibility, look for the voltage setting that maximizes the frequency, and, if you find it, do a calorimetric run at that voltage setting. Good luck! --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 16:26:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04499; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:25:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:25:13 -0800 Message-ID: <384376185.948152856152.JavaMail.root web33.pub01> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:47:36 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: "bhorst ieee.org" , "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 (not) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.163 Resent-Message-ID: <"RphPi3.0.D61.fBxWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob, Appreciate your post. Glad you are enjoying your EV1. Deciding to produce 500 instead of 2,500 at a time (the original announced plan) was wise since leases totalled less than 500 for the first year. GM admitted spending $10 million to win the first solar race across Australia just for the advertising value. They admit committing the better part of $1 billion to their electric vehicle R&D. I suspect they view the whole EV1 project as part of that R&D effort, as they are well aware the market cannot support production of an electric vehicle by a major manufacturing firm, considering the overhead. Toyota admitted their hybrid originally cost twice the retail price. They simply absorbed the difference, and as the car proved popular and production is sharply rising they apparently feel they can eventually pass breakeven and make a profit. Hybrids are demonstrating much more market appeal than straight electrics. Fuel cells are clearly another major push. Ballard has had more than $1 billion invested by Ford and Daimler-Chrysler (before the merger) alone. Within the decade we should see some interesting new configurations. Still lots of difficuly engineering problems with every approach, but competition (and stricter regulation such as we have in California) is producing progress. ------Original Message------ From: Bob Horst To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Sent: January 17, 2000 4:37:33 AM GMT Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 (not) I have had my EV1 for a couple of weeks now, and would like to respond to a couple of the messages in this thread. The EV1 club email list has had an intense discussion about the incorrect news story about GM pulling the plug. Here is the official response from GM: Subject: [EV1-CLUB] A message from Ken Stewart Date sent: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:10:12 -0800 January 12, 2000 We've become aware of some articles and radio broadcasts recently that imply that "GM has pulled the plug on Electric Vehicles". I want to assure you that that is not true. As we talked at the December 5 birthday celebration in southern California, GM remains committed to electric vehicles and to the electric drivetrain systems the EV1 has helped us develop for other concepts. We have not made any changes in our policies or plans that would warrant any new news, and we have not given up on the program as these stories imply. The basis of the stories were apparently from comments made by Vice Chairman Harry Pearce at the North American International Auto Show this week when he said that the company had sufficient supply of EV1s on hand and said while GM could build more, there was "no particular need." I had hoped that the articles would have included a context reminding readers that we currently have a sufficient supply of vehicles already produced as compared to current demand. Unlike more conventional vehicles, our EV1 production has always been built in batches or blocks of about 500 cars. We built Block #1 in 1996 for the 1997 model year. We built Block #2 in 1998 and 1999. While we continue to market the Gen I and Gen II vehicles, GM made a decision to utilize the space in the EV1 assembly plant for other production uses. We have maintained all of the equipment and tooling for the EV1 -- none of it has been destroyed. The EV1 assembly line requires a relatively small amount of floor space and is designed with a freedom from many of the traditional complexities of high volume lines. For example, none of the assembly operations require trenches to be provided in the floor for under-vehicle access. Thus, we can reconstruct the production line should there be sufficient demand for additional EV1's. Further evidence of GM's commitment to electric vehicles is evident in the introduction of the Triax concept vehicles where Gen III electric drivetrain components would be used for a ZEV as well as a hybrid electric vehicle. In summary, there is no change in our plans that warrants a "story". We continue to work on all aspects of the marketing plan to grow the owner base and generate more customer enthusiasm. Ken Stewart Brand Manager Advanced Technology Vehicles _____________________________ As for some other messages trashing GM, I would agree only that GM could be doing much more to market the EV1. But they have done a huge public service by working out some very tough engineering problems for all-electric EVs, or any car using electric motors. If the NiMH car had come out first, people would not have dimissed all-electric vehicles so quickly. I rarely drop below half charge in a day of driving, and would much rather take the 10 seconds to plug it in at night than go to a gas station once a week. This is the first time since I was a teenager that I actually look for excuses to get in the car and drive somewhere. Its accelleration can completely blow away almost any ICE sports cars on the market. (0-180 in first gear, if there was not an electronic governer to limit top speed to 80) By the way, if any of you want to check out the EV1 club web page, it is at http://ev1-club.power.net/. At that site, you can also subscribe to the mail list. -- Bob Horst Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 16:31:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07804; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3883DEEE.543D bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:33:02 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - RF signals References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m9WmC.0.pv1.qGxWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > If you find a peak, but it doesn't change as you vary the voltage, then > that isn't the peak you are looking for. Move on to another peak. > Eventually, you will find an amplitude peak that varies as you vary the > voltage. That's what you are looking for. > > Once you find such a peak, then leave the radio on that frequency and vary > the voltage in an attempt to maximize the amplitude of the AM signal, and, > when you have found the voltage that does so, do a full calorimetric run at > that voltage. To assist you in monitoring the peak, run the radio speaker > circuit to channel 1 of your scope. (The voltage trace is too repetitious > to monitor anyway.) > > If the search for a frequency at which there is a voltage correlated > amplitude peak fails, then maybe there is a voltage correlated frequency > peak. That is, perhaps the frequency of the radio emissions is proportional > to the intensity of the CF effect. To test that possibility, look for the > voltage setting that maximizes the frequency, and, if you find it, do a > calorimetric run at that voltage setting. Or borrow a spectrum analyzer and characterize the RF signature. Hmmm, I wonder if RF bursts occur sonoluminescence and F&P dissociation cells? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 17:05:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24676; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:04:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:04:10 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:15:45 -0500 Message-ID: <20000117231545234.AAA176 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"wbRyb3.0.O16.9mxWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank writes: >Knuke > The EV1 is still on sale and will be so for a while according to >reports on the Electric Vehicle newsgroup. GM shut down its production >line, but have about 500 of them available at this time I read. They will >reopen the line if they have enough sales, they say. I drove the EV1 for a >weekend, and it is a very nice car, but I was able to buy a Tropica for >less money, and I still own it after three years, unlike the EV1 which you >can only lease. > >Hank Yeah, I've managed to get a bit more up-to-date on these issues just in the last day or so. It seems that the California Legislature may have granted an extension to their proposed deadline to the alternative fuel vehicle initiative, as well. I read a poorly written rant about it being shoved back to 2003. I also took the opportunity to check out some of the EVs being manufactured by other companies. There are a lot more of them being offered now than I knew about just six months ago, so things have advanced rather quickly. It just illustrates how quickly and easily one can get into the car manufacturing business these days if one has the right strategy. GM could easily throw its weight into the ring tomorrow, and take over the market if it chose to do so, but it evidently doesn't want to do that right now. When you think about it, a similar thing could happen to the auto industry that happened to the computer industry. Microsoft held back on innovating, choosing instead to buy up the small companies that it thought were headed in the right direction. Now they are facing the AOL mega-conglomerate. If a hungry electric motor manufacturer, say from the Czech Republic, for example, said "Sure, we can make a 120V 60hp DC electric motor for $35. How many do you want?", and a similarly disposed fiberglass company in another country said that they could make a $100 body, if you order 100 of them, etc.. Linus Torvalds or one of his buddies might donate the plans for a fairly sophisticated charging/speed-controller/auxillary system just for kicks. Or, you could do something like a design contest for both the electronics, and the body on the GNU public license principle, and give the winners free cars. If you held the contest annually, you'd have all the innovation you could handle. Enough for a fleet of different styles. The Opera browser company did this for their browser design, and it was fairly successful. WinAmp did the same with their skin idea. You just design a basic frame specification, and let the slackers with the 3D modeling programs do their thing on the body. You'd see some great stuff on the road in no time. Conceivably, a start-up could be assembling EVs here, and be rolling them out the door in 6 months for 5 or 6 grand, retail plus tax and delivery, if the company owner didn't want to become a multi-billionaire swine overnight. They are just not that hard to do if you forego some of the gingerbread until a later date. They could be as simple as glorified golf carts, and no more than that to begin with. Somebody already owning or working in a golf cart or go-cart manufacturing company would be an ideal candidate for the job, or possibly somebody in partnership with a snowboard maker or something like that who knew composts. Sell them on the Internet like Amazon.com does books, and you'd have a very small overhead copylefted, no patent, EV company. The kicker of course, would be a CF powered car. Or flying car. :) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 17:28:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01799; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:27:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:27:02 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - RF signals Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:37:27 -0500 Message-ID: <20000118013727875.AAA281 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"__hd22.0.1S.b5yWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry writes: >Hmmm, I wonder if RF bursts occur sonoluminescence and F&P dissociation >cells? > >Terry Bill Beaty wondered the same thing while viewing my device many years ago now. We didn't really explore it adequately at the time, and the type of calorimetry that I was doing, kept me too busy to roam the dial of a radio. I have thought more about it though, and am planning to do a bit more experimentation in the next day or so. I'll let you know if I find anything interesting. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:00:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13198; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:59:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:59:10 -0800 Message-ID: <385702492.948160746415.JavaMail.root web36.pub01> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:59:06 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman), vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.163 Resent-Message-ID: <"skoOW.0.8E3.jZyWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Knuke, GM is a complex firm with some innovative divisions and people and some that are not. Their EV program is part of Saturn which is made up of the best of the former. The ad budget for EV1 is enormous. Look at the web page Bob referenced and you will get some idea of the ads. Full page in papers here in California and local editions of the NY Times and Wall St Journal as well as many national magazines. Conversions are still done by many people. They fall far short of performance of the EV1 with very few exceptions. Composites are extremely costly. Efforts are under way by several firms to find ways to make them more cheaply. There were more than 20 electric car makers in the U.S. following the 1973 oil crunch. None have survived making passenger vehicles. Ford recently established a division to sell electric bikes and the "Th1nk" electric car, etc. The latter, in my opinion, is dangerous on U.S. streets and highways. Having lost five friends in car wrecks I'm underwhelmed by small, light vehicles. I used to drive such, but after the fifth friend died I decided safety was much more important than it seemed when I was younger. We built a Windmobile in 1975. It was a composite wind electric hybrid that made the cover of Popular Science in November of 1976. Later prototypes, constructed by the son of the inventor, featured solar cells on the arched wing sail that was shaped something like a McDonalds sign between the two rear wheels of this three wheeler. A large variation by a team from Hawaii (sponsored by a shampoo company) gave the GM team a bit of a fright in the first solar race across Australia. It did 82mph in the speed trials powered by wind alone. Unfortunately, the wind died the day the race began and GM cruised to an easy victory. We were never able to find sufficient capital to put Windmobiles into production. Perhaps someday... ------Original Message------ From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: January 17, 2000 3:47:02 AM GMT Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Hi Mark, et. al. Thanks for the comeback, Mark. To be quite honest, I have to admit a personal bias against GM for their labor and business practices, and especially those regarding their offering of an alternatively fueled vehicle. As the perfect example, I didn't even know that they had an EV1 until someone posted it just within the last week or so. I've not seen any magazine ads, Internet ads, TV ads or any other kind of promotional material for the thing, so it is no surprise to me that there has been no demand. Instead, I've only seen ads for gas powered vehicles, mainly SUVs, luxury cars, and minivans, and I keep reading statements like "America likes really great, big cars", and "we see no particular need" for producing an electric vehicle. We all know that positive advertising creates demand, no advertising or even at times negative advertising, doesn't. Leasing a car as opposed to buying just doesn't appeal to everyone either, and if that was the only way the EV1 was offered, then GM (purposely?) limited their market further in this way, as well. I suppose also that they priced it well beyond its actual value, but I don't know what the price was, so I probably shouldn't say. This is only a guess based on GM's past performance history of selling junk, foot dragging, and profit taking. I've seen conversions of regular cars, and one light duty pick-up truck to electric power in working demos that only cost $3000 to convert. These cars had steel bodies, etc. and all the other normal stuff that cars have. They were normal cars. What this tells me is that a roadworthy, light-weight, aerodynamically shaped vehicle built out of composites could be mass produced for around the same price or less, as a golf cart. Base sticker prices for personal transportation could be well under $5,000, again. We would then have an affordable, mid-range (150-200 miles) commuter vehicle that would not make noise or pollute the planet. People could rent gas powered cars or take mass transit (trains, buses, and planes) for longer trips, and save themselves about $15,000 per vehicle purchase. The option of renting EVs would be available as well in most urban areas. Since electric cars are less prone to fail mechanically, the EV owners would retain a great deal of the value of the vehicle for a longer period of time, as well. No tune-ups, or oil changes, etc., either. If GM had approached the electric car market with the right attitude, they could have made a bundle by now, and contributed a great deal to the good health of everyone as well. It is really too bad that their management has their collective head stuck in the19th century. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:09:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16813; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:08:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:08:18 -0800 Message-ID: <380646406.948161287555.JavaMail.root web39.pub01> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:08:07 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman), vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 - not Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.163 Resent-Message-ID: <"o8LA_2.0.d64.IiyWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke, I forgot there is one company making electric cars Solaria ? They seem to be doing a fairly good job but their market, the last I heard, has been steadily shrinking. ZAP is selling an open frame golf cart like "neighborhood" EV that seems even more dangerous to me than the Th1nk by Ford. A few other firms like U.S. Electricar and Zebra Motors are no longer making passenger vehicles. Smaller companies come and go every few years. Many have tried what you suggest only find themselves bankrupt. ------Original Message------ From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: January 17, 2000 11:15:45 PM GMT Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Hank writes: >Knuke > The EV1 is still on sale and will be so for a while according to >reports on the Electric Vehicle newsgroup. GM shut down its production >line, but have about 500 of them available at this time I read. They will >reopen the line if they have enough sales, they say. I drove the EV1 for a >weekend, and it is a very nice car, but I was able to buy a Tropica for >less money, and I still own it after three years, unlike the EV1 which you >can only lease. > >Hank Yeah, I've managed to get a bit more up-to-date on these issues just in the last day or so. It seems that the California Legislature may have granted an extension to their proposed deadline to the alternative fuel vehicle initiative, as well. I read a poorly written rant about it being shoved back to 2003. I also took the opportunity to check out some of the EVs being manufactured by other companies. There are a lot more of them being offered now than I knew about just six months ago, so things have advanced rather quickly. It just illustrates how quickly and easily one can get into the car manufacturing business these days if one has the right strategy. GM could easily throw its weight into the ring tomorrow, and take over the market if it chose to do so, but it evidently doesn't want to do that right now. When you think about it, a similar thing could happen to the auto industry that happened to the computer industry. Microsoft held back on innovating, choosing instead to buy up the small companies that it thought were headed in the right direction. Now they are facing the AOL mega-conglomerate. If a hungry electric motor manufacturer, say from the Czech Republic, for example, said "Sure, we can make a 120V 60hp DC electric motor for $35. How many do you want?", and a similarly disposed fiberglass company in another country said that they could make a $100 body, if you order 100 of them, etc.. Linus Torvalds or one of his buddies might donate the plans for a fairly sophisticated charging/speed-controller/auxillary system just for kicks. Or, you could do something like a design contest for both the electronics, and the body on the GNU public license principle, and give the winners free cars. If you held the contest annually, you'd have all the innovation you could handle. Enough for a fleet of different styles. The Opera browser company did this for their browser design, and it was fairly successful. WinAmp did the same with their skin idea. You just design a basic frame specification, and let the slackers with the 3D modeling programs do their thing on the body. You'd see some great stuff on the road in no time. Conceivably, a start-up could be assembling EVs here, and be rolling them out the door in 6 months for 5 or 6 grand, retail plus tax and delivery, if the company owner didn't want to become a multi-billionaire swine overnight. They are just not that hard to do if you forego some of the gingerbread until a later date. They could be as simple as glorified golf carts, and no more than that to begin with. Somebody already owning or working in a golf cart or go-cart manufacturing company would be an ideal candidate for the job, or possibly somebody in partnership with a snowboard maker or something like that who knew composts. Sell them on the Internet like Amazon.com does books, and you'd have a very small overhead copylefted, no patent, EV company. The kicker of course, would be a CF powered car. Or flying car. :) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:46:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30603; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:45:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:45:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000117231545234.AAA176 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:42:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Resent-Message-ID: <"I6qya1.0.5U7.kEzWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hank writes: >>Knuke >> The EV1 is still on sale and will be so for a while according to >>reports on the Electric Vehicle newsgroup. GM shut down its production >>line, but have about 500 of them available at this time I read. They will >>reopen the line if they have enough sales, they say. I drove the EV1 for a >>weekend, and it is a very nice car, but I was able to buy a Tropica for >>less money, and I still own it after three years, unlike the EV1 which you >>can only lease. >> >>Hank > >Yeah, I've managed to get a bit more up-to-date on these issues just in the >last day or so. It seems that the California Legislature may have granted >an extension to their proposed deadline to the alternative fuel vehicle >initiative, as well. I read a poorly written rant about it being shoved >back to 2003. I also took the opportunity to check out some of the EVs >being manufactured by other companies. There are a lot more of them being >offered now than I knew about just six months ago, so things have advanced >rather quickly. It just illustrates how quickly and easily one can get into >the car manufacturing business these days if one has the right strategy. ***{An electric would get a free pass on emissions requirements, but you would still need a multi-million dollar test track, and you would have to smoke more millions doing crash testing, brake testing, rollover testing, testing of steering and stability, and on and on. Beyond that, the big companies have tens of thousands of patents, covering virtually every aspect of vehicle design, including electrics. You would be guaranteed to infringe hundreds of them, and wind up in expensive litigation, unless you employed platoons of patent lawyers and dozens of engineers, working together, to figure out a way to keep you out of trouble. Bottom line: Nobody has a chance in the modern auto industry but the established big players. There are simply too many legal and regulatory requirements that must be met before you can sell your first car. --MJ}*** [snip] > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 19:01:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03965; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:59:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:59:08 -0800 Message-ID: <38840260.2C7 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:04:16 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - RF signals References: <20000118013727875.AAA281 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q-Kmn.0.tz.yRzWu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: > > Terry writes: > >Hmmm, I wonder if RF bursts occur sonoluminescence and F&P dissociation > >cells? > > > >Terry > > Bill Beaty wondered the same thing while viewing my device many years ago > now. We didn't really explore it adequately at the time, and the type of > calorimetry that I was doing, kept me too busy to roam the dial of a radio. > I have thought more about it though, and am planning to do a bit more > experimentation in the next day or so. I'll let you know if I find anything > interesting. Yours was a cavitation device, wasn't it? Written up in one of the single digit issues of IE? If you use a DC motor, you'll have to shield the motor, of course, since the commutator would be a RF source. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 20:41:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06101; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:40:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:40:05 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - RF signals Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:50:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20000118045030453.AAA263 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"uLY8X2.0.BV1.bw-Wu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry writes: >Yours was a cavitation device, wasn't it? Written up in one of the >single digit issues of IE? Yes, it is a cavitation device, and yes in IE Vol#1, Issue #1. You can also read about it at the website listed below in the signature. >If you use a DC motor, you'll have to shield the motor, of course, since >the commutator would be a RF source. > >Terry Yes, that is a problem. I have both an AC and a DC model, but the DC is getting shipped off soon (should have done that last week, actually), and I shot the heck out of the rotor on the AC powered device. I have some other rotors that might cavitate at least enough to check for RF on that AC model, and they are pretty easy to swap out. I can play with it a bit more, I suppose. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 20:47:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09102; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:46:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:46:23 -0800 From: BriggsRO aol.com Message-ID: <8.32196d.25b54a1b aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:46:19 EST Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - RF signals To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"ggn_32.0.6E2.V0_Wu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/17/00 12:16:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: << Varied the cell voltage around (140-180 volts) while in incandescent mode and did not observe any significant changes in the sound of the RF signals. There is no apparent peak of FR activity in this range. >> Hi Scott, The radio is a good indicator of rf but since it no doubt has an automatic gain control, doesn't tell you much about amplitude over a fairly wide range of rf input energy. Regards, Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 01:14:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28873; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:13:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:13:15 -0800 Message-ID: <005d01bf619c$86619dc0$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: The Brain for President! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 02:12:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6159.6F1CB840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"VmCDg2.0.337.fw2Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6159.6F1CB840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://wbanimation.warnerbros.com/poll/cmp/brain02.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6159.6F1CB840 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Brain for President.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Brain for President.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://wbanimation.warnerbros.com/poll/cmp/brain02.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://wbanimation.warnerbros.com/poll/cmp/brain02.htm Modified=C012DC649C61BF01CF ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6159.6F1CB840-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 01:18:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA30043; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:17:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:17:21 -0800 Message-ID: <005e01bf619d$172f5180$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Vortex during the Full Moon? Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 02:15:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6159.F3892BE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"_OHjg2.0.KL7.U-2Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6159.F3892BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.uwm.edu/~flyhigh/quote.html ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6159.F3892BE0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="quote.html.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="quote.html.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.uwm.edu/~flyhigh/quote.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.uwm.edu/~flyhigh/quote.html Modified=80D884D19C61BF016A ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6159.F3892BE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 05:49:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA04828; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:48:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:48:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000118084805.007a04d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:48:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 In-Reply-To: References: <20000117231545234.AAA176 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bt8yp1.0.IB1.ky6Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{An electric would get a free pass on emissions requirements, but you >would still need a multi-million dollar test track, and you would have to >smoke more millions doing crash testing, brake testing, rollover testing, >testing of steering and stability, and on and on. Nope. All of the U.S. electric car startup companies that I know of use a standard auto chassis from large companies. They replace the engines and leave all other equipment such as steering column, seat belts and lights in place. They sell the engines on the used equipment market. A few years back one of them was negotiating to buy thousands of GM Metro cars without engines. Since these cars have already passed all safety testing, there is no problem selling them. Only the modified portions of the car (the new engine, and regenerative brakes where applicable) have to pass new safety inspections. This illustrates one of the advantages of incremental improvements to technology. It makes it much easier and cheaper to maintain the cars and buy spare parts, too. I do not think there would be much advantage to designing an electric or hybrid car from the ground up, including the chassis, steering column, etc. You might save a little fuel, but I expect 95% of the savings will come from the motor design, because body designs are already optimized. Mark Goldes mentioned the safety issue. The latest gasoline-electric hybrids have the same safety features and the same weight as the standard gasoline model sedans. There is no need to build ultra-light bodies or use exotic, possibly weak materials. They do not have to haul around a ton of batteries. You can have your 80 mpg fuel economy and a reasonable safety margin too. All else being equal, large, heavy autos are inherently safer than light models, but things like air bags and crumple zones can help even up the difference. A light, compact, 4-passenger 2000 model car is far safer than a heavy 1965 model car. The light car will be destroyed in an accident, but the passengers will walk away from it, frightened but without broken bones or serious injuries. I have seen that happen twice. An SUV is heavy, but difficult to drive and difficult to see out of. The safety margin may actually be lower for SUVs than regular passenger cars, according to some recent studies. I have not had much experience driving them, but I have driven a variety of vans and other large vehicles that are hard to steer and that blow around in the wind and skid on water. I would *much* rather drive something like a mid-size Volvo in difficult conditions. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 07:27:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00385; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:24:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:24:09 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <387E1EAB.17C ca-ois.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:24:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Anomolous Images and The universe according to Dewey Larson Resent-Message-ID: <"ZEnSR3.0.v5.PM8Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The late Otto Schmitt had a friend named Frank Meyer. Frank spent the first half of his career in industrial design and the second teaching physics in the State University of Wisconsin system. Otto and Frank where like the sun and moon, you don't notice how bright the moon is until the sun is gone. Frank is an exponent of Reciprocal System, which was set out in a series of books by Dewey Larson. he the former editor of the Reciprocal Society the URL of their website is http://www.randomc.com/~rs . According to Frank, a Reciprocal Universe has two components a physical and a cosmic, in the physical sector, motion is measured as space divided by time and the top speed is that of light, in the cosmic sector time is divided by space and the slowest speed is that of light. What really intrigues me about this is Frank's assertion that the universe is like the skin of a balloon which is expanding at the speed of light. There is a verse in the bible which talks about the sky rolling up like a scroll, I have always wondered what kind of a strange universe it would be if that were possible. What got me started reading about Larson's work was when I asked Frank about hyperdimentional physics and he suggested that I read Larson's last book, Beyond Einstein. I was in the Twin Cities over the weekend and I called Frank up to see if he had received the email I sent him with the URL for the Boisevert website. Unfortunatley Frank's email program crashed. He agreed however that according to the Reciprocal System space, time, electromagnetism and matter are all quantized phenomena. I am amazed that Larson and Boisevert never heard of each other. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 07:27:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01792; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:26:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:26:49 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:27:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: toward a GUT of physics Resent-Message-ID: <"mGkKZ2.0.sR.vO8Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I came across a link to a site selling the book Finding God in Physics, Einstein's Missing Relative by Roy Masters. It is http://www.fhu.com/findgod_book.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 08:00:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18664; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:59:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:59:23 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:09:45 -0500 Message-ID: <20000118160945281.AAA187 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"GksLB1.0.TZ4.Qt8Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >This illustrates one of the advantages of incremental improvements to >technology. It makes it much easier and cheaper to maintain the cars and >buy spare parts, too. I wrote an earlier post about this that would have scorched the phosphers off of some screens, and decided not to post it, but it ran somewhat along these lines of thinking. GM could easily have offered an electric model of nearly all their consumer vehicles. So could all of the other major auto companies. That is what a conversion is all about, and why it is so easy and cheap to do. The billion dollar development program baloney is just that. The tax fraud lease agreement is just that. The phoney targeted advertising is just that. Instead of simply putting electrical motors in their vehicles, like everyone else seems to be able to do, GM paid off lobbyists and congresspeople, shuffled money around, and did the same old tax dodge, defense contracting and oil company dance that it has been doing for the last 70 years. They should be brought to task for the harm that these actions have caused. They also have been engaged full time in the discrediting of the Cold Fusion and any other technologies that threatens their tax dodge, oil company, defense contracting revenues. GM is a producer of death, and you pay for it in your taxes, on the sticker prices for your transportation, and at the pump. You pay for it with the blood of young men and women who are ordered to kill for the oil fields. Any conciliatory comments about GM is simply a denial and support of GM's deathgrip on you and your future. These _are_ the simple facts, my friends. GM could have an entire fleet of EVs available, globally - by lunchtime. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 08:46:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06614; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:45:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:45:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38822B99.476 ca-ois.com> References: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:41:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Continuity vs. Discontinuity - Resent-Message-ID: <"-a-5D.0.Gd1.TY9Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Jim Ostrowski wrote: > >> >And if you found out at some later time that the lines you are reading >> >at this very moment were produced by a computer program, what would THAT >> >do to your "structure"? > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> ***{As previously noted, doubts concerning the sources of some sensations >> do not prevent one from having reason based beliefs concerning the sources >> of others. Doubts about whether sensations have sources, however, do. >> --MJ}*** > >There is no doubt that sensations have sources. I have never said that >sensations might not have sources, or that such sensations could come >into existence out of nothing. You are the one who extrapolates from >this, however, that the behaviour we've recorded on the photograph at >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html, for example, cannot >represent that which it appears to, which is: that the motion of the >steel pellets discontinues momentarily and then resumes. > >As I see it, you would have three possible options for the >interpretation of this experimental result, which are: > >1. The pellets are moving discontinuously, which you say is impossible >by drawing inference from your principle. > >2. The pellets are being strobed by the flash unit, which would be >anomalous, discontinuous behavior of the flash, hopefully not impossible >by reason of your principle. > >3. The chemicals in the film recording the traverse of the pellets >reacted discontinuously, which would be anomalous, discontinuous >behaviour of the film (whether or not this is impossible by reason of >your principle I do not know). > >As to your idea that the pellets may be alternatlely condensing into >solidity out of invisible gas and then evaporating into gas again at >nearly evenly spaced intervals of >several microseconds ***{My idea? I never said any such thing, and you know it. Moreover, as I have indicated to you previously, I have no interest in discussing this particular experiment, since there is no possibility whatsoever that anything is going on here other than simple mechanics. --MJ}*** , I say that's a very interesting idea, but it is >not supported by the general circumstances of the experiments. > >I do not understand how that if we agree that sensations must have >sources, THAT has anything to do with making interpretation 1, that the >pellets are moving discontinuously, impossible. > >I don't think it is implied by this interpretation that the recorded >changes in position of the pellets in Fig5hr resulted from the pellets >appearing out of "nothing" and then disappearing again into "nothing". >It merely reperesents (1) the observation of a "duty cycle" of the >mechanical physics of motion itself, or (2) the possible operation of a >"duty cycle" of the film recording the position changes. > >You have repeatedly argued that ordinary motion resulting from >action/reaction does not involve information transfer, because human or >computer intelligence need not be involved. But since sensations, we >have agreed, must have sources, there must be a transfer of information >from source to sensation, regardless of whether the "sensor" is a brain, >a cpu or some other kind of test mass that is capable of "reacting" in >response to the behaviour of a source mass. > >To illustrate this, it can be observed that when cue ball A impinges on >8 ball B at angle C it drops into hole D. Changing angle C will result >in 8 ball B missing hole D. >One could therefore play a game of "20 questions" with a billiards >expert based on whether 8 ball B drops into the hole, or misses it. One >might arbitrarily >assign the meaning "yes" to when the 8 ball drops into the hole, and >"no" when it misses the hole. In either case there is information >transfer from the source mass A to the sensor mass B. ***{Momentum, a vector quantity, is being transferred, not information. Information is transferred only if there is an observer present, and even in that case, the physical quantity (the momentum) is not the same thing as the information. --MJ}*** > >This information transfer process ***{It's momentum transfer, not information transfer. --MJ}*** must necessarily entail a time delay >allowing for the decelleration of cue ball A and the acceleration of 8 >ball B. Neither acceleration nor decelleration can occur >instantaneously, and the duration of "crack" heard when striking one >billiard ball with another probably represents the approximate duration >of this information transfer process. There is some point within this >duration where, if the cue ball approaches the 8 ball dead on center, >the cue ball becomes motionless (stops), and the 8 ball _begins_ it's >motion. Prior to the stopping of the 8 ball, Newton's laws on this >subject would seem to require that the 8 ball REMAIN MOTIONLESS during >the cue ball's decelleration phase, in order to absorb the amount of >energy required to "stop" the cue ball. ***{That's incorrect. The momentum and energy transfers that take place in collisions are continuous, not discontinuous. A process of elastic deformation (compression) begins as soon as the cue ball touches the object ball. At that instant, the cue ball begins to slow down from its initial velocity, V, and the object ball begins to accelerate. When their speeds are equal, the state of elastic deformation will be at a maximum. At that point, the velocity of both the cue ball and the object ball will be V/2. Each will have momentum of mV/2 and kinetic energy of mV^2/8. Since total kinetic energy at that point will be mV^2/4, and the initial kinetic energy before the collision was mV^2/2, it follows that mV^2/4 will be stored as potential energy of elastic deformation at the instant when each ball has velocity of V/2. However, as the surfaces snap back toward their original, undistorted shapes, the cue ball will be slowed completely to a stop, while the object ball will be accelerated up to the velocity originally possessed by the cue ball, and will exit from the collision with momentum of mV and kinetic energy of mV^2/2. Bottom line: momentum is continuously conserved throughout the collision, while a portion of the kinetic energy is temporarily converted to potential energy, stored in the elastic deformation of the colliding surfaces, and then is given over to the object ball as the surfaces snap back to their original shapes. --MJ}*** > > It is just this action - reaction information transfer process that >needs to be observed and analyzed, and that is what this research is >primarily concerned with. >High speed photography is a vital tool in this kind of effort. > > Newton's 1st law of motion: > > A body at rest will remain at rest and a body in motion will continue >in motion in a straight line at constant velocity IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY >INTERACTION with the rest of the universe. > >Now, once the 8 ball is moving there are necessarily interactions or >information exchanges occuring with the rest of the universe, using the >same logic as above, while it is on it's way to the hole. These >interactions include the exchange of information about the impingement >of numerous air molecules surronding the ball at all times (air >friction). ***{I repeat: the physical entities are exchanging momentum and energy, not information. It is only if there is an observer that information is transferred, and even in that case, information about a momentum (or energy) exchange is not the same as the momentum (or energy) exchange itself. --MJ}*** > > Where at one time the algebraic summation of the motion of these air >molecules equals zero, if it is assumed the air is not moving relative >to the reference frame of the pool table (no "wind") then this >information must be transferred to the ball somehow in a similar way as >when the cue ball struck the 8 ball, that is, DURING THE TIME that a >single air molecule is accelerated out of the way, an exhange of >information is occurring between the 8 ball and the air molecule. If >that is true, then it can be further inferred that motion does not >continue during this information transfer period. ***{Same fallacy as examined earlier: just as the exchanges of momentum and energy during the collisions of billiard balls are continuous, so too the exchanges between billiard balls and air molecules are continuous. Moreover, this continues to apply at the "quantum mechanical" level, despite the fact that we are unable to observe that state of affairs due to the limitations of the instruments available to us. --MJ}*** > >The proof of this assertion is in the experimental result, the >photographs, which have not been refuted or explained away in any other >comprehensible terms. ***{There is massive information concerning the continuity of motion over intervals *vastly* smaller than 1/70,000th of a second. Thus I have no idea why you continue to waste your time trying to explain this particular situation. The world is full of mechanical complexities that, despite the difficulties which they pose for analysis, are not the slightest bit anomalous. This is just one of them. --MJ}*** > >I propose that, in principle, no exchange or transfer of information can >occur in time t=0 ("instantaneously"). All information transfer requires >the passage of time. It is this passage of time that is represented by >the immobility period of the pellets in >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig5HR.html, and the small nail of >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Fig6HR.html . > >By application of newtons law, above, it is inferred that motion >_continues_ UNLESS the motion is interfered with by the rest of the >universe, in which case, there must be a discontinuance of the motion >from what it was previous to such interference. ***{Incorrect for the reasons given above. --MJ}*** > >If Newton's law is correct then, that would mean that there is no >possible chance for motion to be continuous AT ANY TIME. This follows >because there are no imaginable circumstances where the universe does >not interact with an object in motion. ***{Think again. --MJ}*** > >(snip) > >> The odds >> are that things are exactly as the evidence suggests: that when we die, we >> rot, and that's it. --MJ}*** > >Now that's what I call a "dismal" philosphy, Mitchell. You are welcome >to it and to all the boring, depressing implications that such a view >entails. ***{I try to bring my beliefs into accord with the facts, not with what I want to believe. That way, my hopes for a continuation of my existence beyond my normal life span are real hopes, not false hopes. The best of those hopes, by the way, is cryonics: the freezing of one's body after death, until such time as medical advances make it possible to restore one to life and cure whatever ailed you at the time of death. Those who immerse themselves in fantasy concerning a supposed "life after death" miss out on the real prospects that exist for a continuation of their actual lives. --MJ}*** > >According to another movie, William Wallace (1270 - 1305) thought that >the spirit of >his dead, mercilessly executed wife was watching him all the time. She >appeared to him once in a lucid dream. The vengeance he enacted upon the >tyrants of his day was a direct result of the courage he displayed, >supported by that belief. ***{That was a great movie, no argument there. However, the fact that a man with his back against the wall and no hope for a decent life is justified in violently striking back at his oppressors does not mean that revolution would be a proper course of action in present-day America. I have already explained to you in great detail why I think violence against the present American government, however, oppressive it may be, is *not* justified, and I have no interest in cycling back through that topic again. --MJ}*** > >I propose that, perhaps during the times represented by the gaps between >recorded positions of the objects , the duty cycle of the universe >mechanism alternates to another state of existence, or being, whatever >you want to call it. What this state of >existence is like, I do not know, and have not seen, except perhaps, in >dreams. ***{As noted earlier, energy and momentum transfers during collisions are continuous. Think about it. --MJ}*** > >Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 08:46:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06553; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:45:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:45:12 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000118084805.007a04d0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20000117231545234.AAA176 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:04:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Resent-Message-ID: <"Cl6-k1.0.Jc1.OY9Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{An electric would get a free pass on emissions requirements, but you >>would still need a multi-million dollar test track, and you would have to >>smoke more millions doing crash testing, brake testing, rollover testing, >>testing of steering and stability, and on and on. > >Nope. All of the U.S. electric car startup companies that I know of use a >standard auto chassis from large companies. ***{Irrelevant. Obviously, if you buy most or all of your parts from established manufacturers, you are essentially a subsidiary of the large manufacturer. As long as they can keep you locked into a tight relationship where you are dependent upon them, and in which they extract most of your profits, you are not really an independent company. If you tick them off, they can punish you at any time--e.g., by changing their chassis design so that it no longer accomodates your engine, thereby forcing you to retool. And if you doubt that these sorts of techniques are routinely used to control small manufacturers, check out *The Language of Dissent*, by former federal trade commissioner Lowell Mason. As he pointed out, the small manufacturer can, of course, fight the large manufacturer in court, by pressing charges of restraint of trade, etc., but such suits take years to prosecute, and millions of dollars, and offer meager prospects of victory. The small manufacturer simply isn't in a position to follow that route, so, as a practical matter, they have no choice but to kowtow to the big companies. --MJ}*** They replace the engines and >leave all other equipment such as steering column, seat belts and lights in >place. They sell the engines on the used equipment market. A few years back >one of them was negotiating to buy thousands of GM Metro cars without >engines. Since these cars have already passed all safety testing, there is >no problem selling them. Only the modified portions of the car (the new >engine, and regenerative brakes where applicable) have to pass new safety >inspections. > >This illustrates one of the advantages of incremental improvements to >technology. It makes it much easier and cheaper to maintain the cars and >buy spare parts, too. ***{Yup. And it also illustrates why there is no competition in the American auto industry. As I said, and as you confirmed, the present regulatory and legal environment *absolutely precludes* the success of any small, independent startup manufacturers. --MJ}*** > >I do not think there would be much advantage to designing an electric or >hybrid car from the ground up, including the chassis, steering column, etc. >You might save a little fuel, but I expect 95% of the savings will come >from the motor design, because body designs are already optimized. ***{The savings that matter are the savings to the consumer that result when an industry is competitive. If anybody could simply start building automobiles in his garage, and could sell them to the public on a caveat emptor basis, there would be thousands of companies involved in the market, and as a result auto prices would be vastly lower, and the quality delivered to those who bought from reputable manufacturers would be much higher. Overall safety would improve, even though some people who bought poorly engineered vehicles from marginal companies would take very large safety related risks. Likewise, overall emissions quality would improve, for those who bought efficient designs from quality firms, despite the high emissions put off by the inefficient designs of marginal firms. --MJ}*** > >Mark Goldes mentioned the safety issue. The latest gasoline-electric >hybrids have the same safety features and the same weight as the standard >gasoline model sedans. There is no need to build ultra-light bodies or use >exotic, possibly weak materials. ***{Progress is based on innovation. People should be free to act on their ideas and to take risks, without being strangled in red tape. You should think of those who voluntarily assume such risks as test pilots. Sure, some of the aviation pioneers were maimed and killed while flying unsafe designs, but the result of their efforts was that the world found safer designs, and, today, as a consequence of those early injuries and deaths, thousands of lives are saved each year. (And still more could be saved if designs that are even better were not enmired in red tape.) What this means is that the slowing of progress is a far, far greater threat to public safety than the unsafe designs of the marginal companies that are permitted to exist under capitalism. --MJ}*** They do not have to haul around a ton of >batteries. You can have your 80 mpg fuel economy and a reasonable safety >margin too. All else being equal, large, heavy autos are inherently safer >than light models, but things like air bags and crumple zones can help even >up the difference. ***{Air bags are a threat to public safety. They cause accidents. I have personally known a number of people who were in highway rollover accidents that would not have happened, if airbags had not been installed in their vehicles. One fellow was driving at night and hit a deer. The air bag deployed, blowing his hands away from the steering wheel and striking his face with enough force to burn his skin and partially detach one retina. Result: his brand new car went flying into a ditch, rolled over, and was totaled, sending him to the ICU. Another guy, due to a moment of inattention, hit a pothole, with the same result. Statistically, of course, each episode went into the books as one more life saved by an air bag. --MJ}*** A light, compact, 4-passenger 2000 model car is far >safer than a heavy 1965 model car. The light car will be destroyed in an >accident, but the passengers will walk away from it, frightened but without >broken bones or serious injuries. I have seen that happen twice. ***{And I have seen the opposite. What matters here is not the nonrepresentative samples selected by an individual's personal experience, but the facts and the logic supported by those facts. What you need to decide is whether it is safer to be enclosed in 3500 lbs of steel, carrying non-volatile leaded gas, or in 1800 lbs of plastic an aluminum, carrying highly volatile unleaded gas, if you are in a collision. --MJ}*** An SUV is >heavy, but difficult to drive and difficult to see out of. The safety >margin may actually be lower for SUVs than regular passenger cars, >according to some recent studies. ***{The government almost invariably "finds" that its past policies have been justified. Since those policies have forced millions of economically disadvantaged people to drive insubstantial and *obviously* unsafe vehicles, it is no surprise that they would concoct excuses and place the blame on those who have continued to purchase larger, safer, and more useful vehicles. What counts, again, is the facts and the logic supported by those facts, not the biased conclusions of studies funded by bureaucrats interested in covering their asses. --MJ}*** I have not had much experience driving >them, but I have driven a variety of vans and other large vehicles that are >hard to steer and that blow around in the wind and skid on water. I would >*much* rather drive something like a mid-size Volvo in difficult conditions. ***{In a free country, we would all be free to act on our own visions of what is right for us. I would drive my Chevy Cheyenne 3/4 ton pickup, and you could drive your Volvo, and if we should happen to find ourselves in a head-on collision, the man with the better judgment would be the one who walked away. --MJ}*** > >- Jed ***{By the way, I notice that I'm not in your killfile, despite your assertion that you were going to put me there! I guess my stuff is just too fascinating to resist! :-) --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 09:24:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23209; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:23:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:23:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000118160945281.AAA187 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:18:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Resent-Message-ID: <"FxHL72.0.Wg5.l6AXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jed writes: >>This illustrates one of the advantages of incremental improvements to >>technology. It makes it much easier and cheaper to maintain the cars and >>buy spare parts, too. > >I wrote an earlier post about this that would have scorched the phosphers >off of some screens, and decided not to post it, but it ran somewhat along >these lines of thinking. GM could easily have offered an electric model of >nearly all their consumer vehicles. So could all of the other major auto >companies. That is what a conversion is all about, and why it is so easy >and cheap to do. > >The billion dollar development program baloney is just that. The tax fraud >lease agreement is just that. The phoney targeted advertising is just that. >Instead of simply putting electrical motors in their vehicles, like everyone >else seems to be able to do, GM paid off lobbyists and congresspeople, >shuffled money around, and did the same old tax dodge, defense contracting >and oil company dance that it has been doing for the last 70 years. They >should be brought to task for the harm that these actions have caused. > >They also have been engaged full time in the discrediting of the Cold Fusion >and any other technologies that threatens their tax dodge, oil company, >defense contracting revenues. GM is a producer of death, and you pay for it >in your taxes, on the sticker prices for your transportation, and at the >pump. You pay for it with the blood of young men and women who are ordered >to kill for the oil fields. Any conciliatory comments about GM is simply a >denial and support of GM's deathgrip on you and your future. These _are_ >the simple facts, my friends. > >GM could have an entire fleet of EVs available, globally - by lunchtime. > >Knuke ***{Hi, Knuke. How do you suppose it is possible that I, a radical objectivist and libertarian, am in agreement with much of what you, an obvious radical of the old left, say about the behavior of large corporations? Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? :-) Here is the way to bring GM to task: implement total, cold turkey, economic deregulation. Do that, and GM will be lucky to last a decade. Similarly, if you want to put the Mafia out of business, simply legalize narcotics, prostitution, gambling, dogfighting, etc. In 20 years, the average life expectancy on this planet will be over a hundred, and we will have colonies on the Moon, Mars, and beyond. On the other hand, if we continue down our present path, we will eventually come face to face with economic collapse, and, to "solve" those problems, a brutal authoritarianism that will make Nazi Germany look mild by comparison. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 09:40:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28991; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:39:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:39:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.108.150 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:39:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: About Lynn Kurtz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"aeiS31.0.v47.6LAXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones Posted: > >***{The last name is Jones, not Swartz. You need to do something about that >memory hole, old gal! (Or old guy, or whatever you are.) --MJ}*** Here Mitchell is expressing some question about the gender of Lynn Kurtz and is suggesting that she is old. The problem is that no man anyone here knows has Lynn for a first name but she has stipulated that she be referred to in the masculine gender. My guess is that she is a woman and getting there in age at about 54. She is a mathematics professor at Arizona State University and has been there about 32 years. Her main interest here on Vortex seems to be making fun of the cf true believers which seems a little strange for an old (or getting there) mathematics professor. I always read her posts because I think that it is good to make fun of the cf believers. I like to see a bit of reality making its way into the fantasy world of cf. For my part I look upon the cf stuff as an amusing diversion into fantasy land which I mostly ignore while I am looking for any useful information about vortices. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 10:27:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA13589; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:26:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:26:25 -0800 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:28:19 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: About Lynn Kurtz In-reply-to: X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200001181827.LAA27491 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Resent-Message-ID: <"YY_Ey1.0.yJ3.D1BXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh wow! My very own subject line. This group is getting short on material. At 12:39 PM 1/18/00 -0500, you wrote: >Here Mitchell is expressing some question about the gender of Lynn >Kurtz and is suggesting that she is old. The problem is that no man >anyone here knows has Lynn for a first name but she has stipulated >that she be referred to in the masculine gender. My guess is that >she is a woman and getting there in age at about 54. She is a >mathematics professor at Arizona State University and has been there >about 32 years. My students refer to me either as Mr. or Dr. Kurtz, both of which are correct, if that helps you refine your guess. >Her main interest here on Vortex seems to be making >fun of the cf true believers which seems a little strange for an old >(or getting there) mathematics professor. It does? >I always read her posts... Thank you Ms. Wharton. :-) --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 11:33:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03754; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:30:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:30:39 -0800 Message-ID: <00c801bf61f2$c779ee60$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "IronEagle" Subject: Fw: Z-CHIP EXPOSED! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:29:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BF61AF.B55857A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"s8FrS3.0.aw.UzBXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BF61AF.B55857A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING! > > http://server142.smartbotpro.net/zchip/ > ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BF61AF.B55857A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Z-CHIP EXPOSED!.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Z-CHIP EXPOSED!.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://server142.smartbotpro.net/zchip/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://server142.smartbotpro.net/zchip/ Modified=E0CB12F8CB61BF01A1 ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BF61AF.B55857A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 13:04:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03640; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:02:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:02:55 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:13:21 -0500 Message-ID: <20000118211321343.AAA201 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"G-hm01.0.lu.-JDXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{Hi, Knuke. How do you suppose it is possible that I, a radical >objectivist and libertarian, am in agreement with much of what you, an >obvious radical of the old left, say about the behavior of large >corporations? Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? :-) Yes, it does actually, in many ways, but it is fairly easy to explain. You profit from it financially. You rightly perceive the reality that a large number of people are dissatisfied by the obvious excesses, abuses and moral turpitude of poorly regulated capitalism, and so you blame it on the regulators that have been bought by the capitalists. You write a book about it, and you recommend total, complete freedom which of course, will result in even more excesses. While this is ocurring, you become the darling of all large corporate funding agencies and weirdo freedom advocates (the wealthy) because this is just exactly the kind of business environment that they dream about. You also are profiting from book sales, and using the money to build and outfit a spaceship. Once that is completed, you will do a lap around the planet shaking your head in disdain, flush the toilet over Washington DC, set the controls for the stars, and yell "SOOO LOOOONG, SUCKAAAAS!!" It's a clever idea, I don't blame you in the least, and I would expect no less from you. :) Bon Voyage! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 13:39:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15161; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:35:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:35:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000118163517.007a18a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:35:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000118084805.007a04d0 pop.mindspring.com> <20000117231545234.AAA176 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"moyvv3.0.mi3.roDXu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >American auto industry. As I said, and as you confirmed, the present >regulatory and legal environment *absolutely precludes* the success of any >small, independent startup manufacturers. --MJ}*** Actually, the EV manufacturers were growing like gangbusters last time I checked. They will probably be knocked out by the Japanese hybrids though. Anyway this statement is absurd. It like looking at IBM versus Microsoft in 1980 and saying "the small software startups don't stand a chance!" (Many people did say that.) If there is a demand for advanced cars, and a small company that developed an outstanding hybrid or CF car, it would grow so fast and so big that in 20 years it could *buy* GM, just as Microsoft could now buy IBM, if they were stupid enough. It remains to be seen whether there is, in fact, a demand. It it looking good so far -- suprisingly good. Industry gab sheets report that Toyota is swamped with inquires for the Prius hybid. An inquiry is not an order, but that is a good sign. The cars are selling like hotcakes in Japan. I suppose that is why GM and Ford are in the panic mode to roll out their hybrids. >>You might save a little fuel, but I expect 95% of the savings will come >>from the motor design, because body designs are already optimized. > >***{The savings that matter are the savings to the consumer that result >when an industry is competitive. I meant energy or fuel savings. Hybrid cars always cost more. ICEs are cheap. If anybody could simply start building >automobiles in his garage, and could sell them to the public on a caveat >emptor basis, there would be thousands of companies involved in the market . . . And thousands of people would be blown up, mangled and fried. I know three far-out inventor type people who monkeyed with their cars in "experiments," and who managed to burn two houses, one garage, and an 8-year-old child. This is kind of like suggesting that 1 million Atlanta drivers should carry Molotov cocktails in their trunks just for the heck of it. Fortunately, the insurance companies would never allow this kind of insanity. >***{Air bags are a threat to public safety. They cause accidents. Yeah, sure. And vitamin C causes scurvy, fresh vegetables are bad for you, and night air gives you tuberculosis. >An SUV is >>heavy, but difficult to drive and difficult to see out of. The safety >>margin may actually be lower for SUVs than regular passenger cars, >>according to some recent studies. > >***{The government almost invariably "finds" that its past policies have >been justified. Well, these were insurance company studies, which is why insurance rates are going up for SUVs. Nothing to do with Uncle Sam. The gov't is not the institution concerned about people's health. >***{In a free country, we would all be free to act on our own visions of >what is right for us. I would drive my Chevy Cheyenne 3/4 ton pickup, and >you could drive your Volvo, and if we should happen to find ourselves in a >head-on collision, the man with the better judgment would be the one who >walked away. --MJ}*** Been there. Done that. I wacked into a concrete wall, which has a lot more mass than a truck. I walked away. The Volvo needed a lot of front end work, but I was fine. Hardly noticed it. >***{By the way, I notice that I'm not in your killfile, despite your >assertion that you were going to put me there! I guess my stuff is just too >fascinating to resist! :-) --MJ}*** I can turn it on and off in a flash. It doesn't seem fair to quote you and then ignore your responses. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 14:08:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28785; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:07:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:07:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3884E4BA.34CFBED5 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:10:02 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Z-CHIP EXPOSED! References: <00c801bf61f2$c779ee60$a6441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mh0TQ1.0.d17.DGEXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING! > > > > http://server142.smartbotpro.net/zchip/ LOL! *All* cards were removed from the original pile. Cute. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 14:45:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07186; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:43:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:43:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3884E8BD.D53E3A47 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:27:09 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Brain for President! References: <005d01bf619c$86619dc0$a6441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GlKyi1.0.Cm1.VoEXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > http://wbanimation.warnerbros.com/poll/cmp/brain02.htm > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Name: The Brain for President.url > The Brain for President.url Type: Internet Shortcut (application/x-unknown-content-type-InternetShortcut) > Encoding: 7bit Hey, Fred, Did you hear that they have selected a name for the new presidental abode in NY state? "Disgraceland." Runners up included: "Perjurers' Palace", "HillBilly Villa", "The House of Bill's Repute", "Drawers Downs", "Cheatem Estates", "Castle of Contempt", "Sin Simeon", "The Knee Pad", "The White Trash House", "The Blight House", "The Panderosa", "Liars' Lair" and "Bill & Hill's Bribe & Breakfast". Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 20:49:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA26453; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:48:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:48:29 -0800 Message-ID: <011f01bf6240$b515d880$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Lead Acid Storage Battery for CF-OU Tests? Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:46:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"qGd6D1.0.FT6.T8KXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since the Positive Plates contain Lead Peroxide (PbO2) and the Negative Plates are Lead Antimony Alloy, wouldn't a 12 volt car battery (or such)that has NOT been filled with H2SO4, if filled with a H2O-K2CO3 Electrolyte with the + plates of the battery made the - cathode plates with 12 to 15 volts DC applied act somewhat like a F&P cell? That way one might get the Lead and/or Antimony to Fission too? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 23:32:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA32132; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:31:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:31:26 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <98.ab63a1.25b6c245 aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 02:31:17 EST Subject: (Update) Hear the Glow Discharge Plasma sound.... To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"x9fGO.0.-r7.DXMXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, You may hear the Glow Discharge Plasma sound in action at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp2.htm This has been recorded in open air with a simple audio recorder..... Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 00:22:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA06612; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:22:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:22:03 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (Update) Hear the Glow Discharge Plasma sound.... Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:21:55 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <98.ab63a1.25b6c245 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <98.ab63a1.25b6c245 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA06582 Resent-Message-ID: <"I9F2p3.0.9d1.hGNXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 02:31:17 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >Dear All, > >You may hear the Glow Discharge Plasma sound in action at : > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp2.htm > >This has been recorded in open air with a simple audio recorder..... Hi JL, Isn't this the frequency of your high voltage current? (the plasma acts as a load speaker). If you could modulate the HV with an audio signal, you should hear it too. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 01:40:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA20722; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:38:23 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:38:17 EST Subject: Re: (Update) Hear the Glow Discharge Plasma sound.... To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"N7ArA3.0.i35.FOOXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Hi JL, > > Isn't this the frequency of your high voltage current? (the plasma acts as a > load speaker). If you could modulate the HV with an audio signal, you should > hear it too. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Hi Robin, Yes of course, this is the frequency of the High Voltage current ( the exact frequency currently measured is 5.7 kHz ). The GDP panel act as a kind of plasma loudspeaker... Ps: I have just updated the electronic diagram in my web page at ( http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp2.htm ), because I have noticed some drawing errors about the ignition coil connection, so the diagram posted is now the current working setup. Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 07:46:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02435; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:45:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000118163517.007a18a0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000118084805.007a04d0 pop.mindspring.com> <20000117231545234.AAA176 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:42:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Resent-Message-ID: <"6KKmh.0.yb.2mTXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>American auto industry. As I said, and as you confirmed, the present >>regulatory and legal environment *absolutely precludes* the success of any >>small, independent startup manufacturers. --MJ}*** > >Actually, the EV manufacturers were growing like gangbusters last time I >checked. They will probably be knocked out by the Japanese hybrids though. > >Anyway this statement is absurd. It like looking at IBM versus Microsoft in >1980 and saying "the small software startups don't stand a chance!" ***{Nope. The microcomputer industry has only existed for about 20 years, and has not yet become strangled in red tape. Hence it remains highly competitive, and independent startups still have fairly low entry costs. However, with every year that goes by, more laws and regulations are passed telling people in the industry what they can and cannot do. The effect, with the passage of time, will be the same as for the automotive industry: a cartel of high cost producers will emerge, protected from competition by a legal and regulatory labyrinth, and run by politically connected insiders. --MJ}*** (Many >people did say that.) If there is a demand for advanced cars, and a small >company that developed an outstanding hybrid or CF car, it would grow so >fast and so big that in 20 years it could *buy* GM, just as Microsoft could >now buy IBM, if they were stupid enough. ***{Now *that's* absurd. The "outstanding hybrid" would be built of parts manufactured by the big auto companies, and hence the small company that built it would be totally at their mercy, for reasons noted earlier (and which you made no attempt to dispute). As soon as it proved that there was a market for such vehicles, the big players would begin offering their own versions, and you can bet that their internal subsidiaries would get better prices for parts than the external company! Result: the small outsider would go bust or be forced to sell out in short order, after it proved that the market was real. As for a CF car, well, if CF were real (not proven), and a small company tried to market an automobile based on a working CF power plant, the big players would make them an offer they couldn't refuse: sell out to big companies run by politically connected insiders, or else begin a voyage of discovery through the regulatory obstacle course. If you think CF has faced irrational objections up to now, coming from opponents who believe it isn't real, wait until you see the hurdles that are set in front of it when the major players become convinced that it *is* real! Such a power plant would immediately be dubbed a "nuclear device," and the entire insane campaign that, for decades, obstructed the development of nuclear power, would simply get rolling all over again. Result: the small company would eventually be forced to either sell out to the bigs, or go under. Under fascism, big firms in "mature" industries deal with small intruders according to a simple maxim: "buy 'em or break 'em." --MJ}*** > >It remains to be seen whether there is, in fact, a demand. It it looking >good so far -- suprisingly good. Industry gab sheets report that Toyota is >swamped with inquires for the Prius hybid. An inquiry is not an order, but >that is a good sign. The cars are selling like hotcakes in Japan. I suppose >that is why GM and Ford are in the panic mode to roll out their hybrids. ***{Toyota is a gigantic company, as are Ford and GM. If electrics become popular, the market will be dominated by such firms. That's what I have been saying from the beginning. Here is a quote from my first post on this topic: "Nobody has a chance in the modern auto industry but the established big players. There are simply too many legal and regulatory requirements that must be met before you can sell your first car." --MJ}*** > > >>>You might save a little fuel, but I expect 95% of the savings will come >>>from the motor design, because body designs are already optimized. >> >>***{The savings that matter are the savings to the consumer that result >>when an industry is competitive. > >I meant energy or fuel savings. Hybrid cars always cost more. ICEs are cheap. ***{Deregulation would vastly reduce the prices of automobiles while improving their quality. That aspect is *at least* as important as fuel consumption. Moreover, the fuel savings claimed by the proponents of regulation are not real, because in an unregulated automobile industry, competition would speed up the pace of innovation. Result: engine efficiency would improve at a faster pace, and fuel consumption would decline. If the U.S. automobile industrty had never been regulated, the odds are good that fuel consumption would be far lower than it is now, and vehicle emissions would be much lower as well. It is fallacious to assume that the rate of progress in a regulated industry is the same as it would be if the industry were not regulated. --MJ}*** > > > If anybody could simply start building >>automobiles in his garage, and could sell them to the public on a caveat >>emptor basis, there would be thousands of companies involved in the >market . . . > >And thousands of people would be blown up, mangled and fried. I know three >far-out inventor type people who monkeyed with their cars in "experiments," >and who managed to burn two houses, one garage, and an 8-year-old child. ***{I explained that such accidents are the price of progress, and argued that increasing the rate of progress would save lives in the net. In response, you have snipped out the reasoning without comment and repeated the same assertions a second time. From that, I can only assume you have no answer to the reasoning. --MJ}*** >This is kind of like suggesting that 1 million Atlanta drivers should carry >Molotov cocktails in their trunks just for the heck of it. Fortunately, the >insurance companies would never allow this kind of insanity. ***{Here's a tip, Jed: insinuating that your opponent is insane is *not* an effective way to argue. Think about it. --MJ}*** > >>***{Air bags are a threat to public safety. They cause accidents. > >Yeah, sure. And vitamin C causes scurvy, fresh vegetables are bad for you, >and night air gives you tuberculosis. ***{Once again you ignore detailed reasoning, this time responding with sarcasm. --MJ}*** >> >>An SUV is >>>heavy, but difficult to drive and difficult to see out of. The safety >>>margin may actually be lower for SUVs than regular passenger cars, >>>according to some recent studies. >> >>***{The government almost invariably "finds" that its past policies have >>been justified. > >Well, these were insurance company studies, which is why insurance rates >are going up for SUVs. ***{Insurance rates are going up for SUV's because collisions with SUV's in which the driver of the SUV is at fault result in larger settlements. This occurs because most of the damage in a collision between a compact and an SUV is inflicted on the compact. The insurance companies, ever eager for an excuse to go before state insurance boards and ask for higher rates, thus have a ready made and "politically correct" excuse for doing so. Unfortunately for you, that state of affairs does not imply that SUV's are less safe than regular passenger automobiles, but the opposite. --MJ}*** Nothing to do with Uncle Sam. The gov't is not the >institution concerned about people's health. ***{If you want to argue for the obviously false conclusion that SUV's are less safe *for their occupants* than regular cars, you are going to have to state detailed reasoning. Merely citing "some recent studies" ain't gonna cut it. --MJ}*** > > >>***{In a free country, we would all be free to act on our own visions of >>what is right for us. I would drive my Chevy Cheyenne 3/4 ton pickup, and >>you could drive your Volvo, and if we should happen to find ourselves in a >>head-on collision, the man with the better judgment would be the one who >>walked away. --MJ}*** > >Been there. Done that. I wacked into a concrete wall, which has a lot more >mass than a truck. ***{The mass only counts because it is a factor in a kinetic energy calculation, and the kinetic energy of a wall is zero because its velocity is zero. Thus even if the wall was reinforced concrete, all of the kinetic energy was supplied by your car. In your collision, which was probably at around 15 mph judging from your description, the kinetic energy of your vehicle was used to deform parts in the front end of your car. In a head on collision with a truck at highway speeds, the total kinetic energy that is involved will be *much* larger for two reasons: (1) because it is directly proportional to the square of the velocity, and (2) because the much larger kinetic energy supplied by the truck will be involved. Result: blotto for your silly volvo, and blotto for you. --MJ}*** I walked away. The Volvo needed a lot of front end work, >but I was fine. Hardly noticed it. ***{You either forgot to add a smiley at the end, or else you are laboring under a dangerous misconception. Here's a flash for you: if you do a head on collision with a Chevy Cheyenne at highway speeds, the odds are very high that you will exit the scene in a body bag. We are talking about a working truck here, designed to carry heavy loads, and constructed out of reinforced steel rather than fiberglass, plastic, and aluminum. Thus the crushing and bending of parts that is needed to absorb the kinetic energy of the collision is going to be supplied mostly by your Volvo. Result: it will be crushed like a beer can, with you inside. Too much kinetic energy is going to be involved for there to be any other outcome. --MJ}*** > > >>***{By the way, I notice that I'm not in your killfile, despite your >>assertion that you were going to put me there! I guess my stuff is just too >>fascinating to resist! :-) --MJ}*** > >I can turn it on and off in a flash. It doesn't seem fair to quote you and >then ignore your responses. ***{That's pretty much what you did here, as far as I can see. You mostly just snipped out my reasoning, and either repeated your original assertions, waxed sarcastic, or insinuated that I am insane for believing as I do. Moreover, your statement that you were placing me in a killfile occurred in a completely different thread, where we were discussing the electrical environment inside Mizuno's lab, and you did, in fact, ignore my response there as well. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 08:12:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13655; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:11:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:11:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000118211321343.AAA201 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:07:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Resent-Message-ID: <"UBQVF.0.HL3.09UXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitch writes: >>***{Hi, Knuke. How do you suppose it is possible that I, a radical >>objectivist and libertarian, am in agreement with much of what you, an >>obvious radical of the old left, say about the behavior of large >>corporations? Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? :-) > >Yes, it does actually, in many ways, but it is fairly easy to explain. You >profit from it financially. You rightly perceive the reality that a large >number of people are dissatisfied by the obvious excesses, abuses and moral >turpitude of poorly regulated capitalism, and so you blame it on the >regulators that have been bought by the capitalists. You write a book about >it, and you recommend total, complete freedom which of course, will result >in even more excesses. While this is ocurring, you become the darling of >all large corporate funding agencies and weirdo freedom advocates (the >wealthy) because this is just exactly the kind of business environment that >they dream about. ***{Actually, "large corporate funding agencies" support fascism, because its regulatory structure protects them from competition. They give their money to the Sierra Club and similar supporters of trendy causes, and they would be as horrified at the prospect of capitalism as the Mafia would be. (Legalization of narcotics, gambling, prostitution, etc., would put the Mafia out of business.) They would be far more likely to give money to you than to me. --MJ}*** You also are profiting from book sales ***{Not really. I have three books out: *The Dogs of Capitalism*, *The Leuchter Report: A Dissection*, and *The Coming Counterrevolution in Art*. None of them are being advertised, and as a consequence they sell very slowly, in response to word-of-mouth recommendations. (I know: failure to advertise is a major business no-no. Unfortunately, despite your suspicions, I have never really cared very much about money. Since writing is fun, I do it a lot. Since marketing is not fun, I neglect it.) --MJ}*** and using the >money to build and outfit a spaceship. Once that is completed, you will do >a lap around the planet shaking your head in disdain, flush the toilet over >Washington DC, set the controls for the stars, and yell "SOOO LOOOONG, >SUCKAAAAS!!" ***{If I ever get in a position to do that, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will. For the present, however, it is merely a fantasy. --MJ}*** > >It's a clever idea, I don't blame you in the least, and I would expect no >less from you. :) > >Bon Voyage! >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 10:12:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00959; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:09:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:06:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mizuno300 - Run5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-Q6Qb3.0.kE.jtVXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I finally succeeded in matching the voltage, current, and cooling rate reported by M&O in the IE#27 article. The result was surprising...but only because I wasn't anticipating it. The difference between our experiments is now in sharper focus but still undecided between two distinct possibilities. Read all about it at: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run5/run5.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 10:22:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05294; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:20:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:20:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000119132017.0079c100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:20:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TAnxe3.0.dI1.y1WXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >I finally succeeded in matching the voltage, current, and cooling rate >reported by M&O in the IE#27 article . . . O&M, strictly speaking. Mostly O. >Read all about it at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run5/run5.html I can't read it. The pictures blot out the text with Microsoft Internet Explorer version 5.00.2915.6307IC. (Just think: I may be the only person in the world with this particular version!) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 10:59:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17900; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:54:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:54:37 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000119125035.018fab28 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:50:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000119132017.0079c100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"M60wJ3.0.YN4.jXWXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:20 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I can't read it. The pictures blot out the text with Microsoft Internet >Explorer version 5.00.2915.6307IC. (Just think: I may be the only person in >the world with this particular version!) Damn! I'm using version 5.00.2314.1003 and it works perfectly. Can you read this one: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run4/run4.html It was created with the same web editor....hmmm! there is ONE difference. I tried to make it nicer looking by padding the images with horizontal space. Here's a version without the spaces: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run5/run5nosp.html Does that read properly? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 11:07:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA22951; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:05:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:05:49 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:06:58 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 References: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="miz5.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="miz5.txt" Resent-Message-ID: <"PzEZR2.0.Wc5.CiWXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Netscape 3 also has a problem with images overlapping text. Text of what Scott has posted at http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run5/run5.html RUN 5 3rd Series of Incandescent W Experiments (300 volt power supply) 19JAN00 For this run we continued our efforts to match the parameters of Mizuno & Ohmori described in "Nuclear Transmutation reaction Caused by Light Water Electrolysis on Tungsten Cathode Under Incandescent Conditions", Infinite Energy #27, p. 34. To reduce the current consumed by our cell, we decreased the size of the rectangular W cathode from 5 mm x 10 mm to 3.3 mm x 5.4 mm. To increase the rate of heat loss through the walls of the cell, we positioned a powerful fan 5 cm from the cell as shown in the photo to the left. Also visible in this photo is an old Hallicrafters S-38 short-wave radio used to monitor RF energy emitted by the cell. With the new fan, the cooling rate was considerably higher than before. Following Mizuno and Ohmori, we filled the cell nearly full of electrolyte, raised it to the boiling point, and recorded the natural cooling curve with the new fan operating. The cooling curve thus obtained is shown on the right. We obtained the approximate initial slope of this cooling curve by taking the first 5 points in the exponential decline and fitting a straight line to them. The slope of this line, denoted by the variable "mm" in the Mathcad worksheet to the left, combined with the heat capacity of the cell, yields the cooling rate in watts. With the new fan, the cooling rate was about 102 watts, which compares well with the 99 watt cooling rate reported by Mizuno & Ohmori in the above referenced article. For reference, here is the record of Tcell (yellow dots) and Pin (green) for Run 4, which used a smaller fan and the original cathode size. The plot duration is only 1 hour. The beginning of the run, while Pin is varying erratically is the warm-up phase. The actual run is the latter part where Tcell is constant at ~98°C (the electrolyte is boiling) and Pin is more or less constant at about 125 watts (Pin's vertical scale is 50 watts/div). In Run 4 the cooling rate was about 68 watts so the input power of 125 watts was more than sufficient to keep the cell boiling. Run 4 used a 5 x 10 mm cathode and the average cell current was 0.77 amperes compared to 0.48 amperes for Mizuno & Ohmori's run (the first entry in the table on p. 35 in the above referenced article). We succeeded in reducing the current in Run 5 to about 0.45 amps, very close to the Mizuno and Ohmori value. This reduction in current caused a corresponding reduction in Pin...to about 75 watts, again very close to the input power reported by Mizuno & Ohmori. The reduction in input power combined with the increase in cooling rate provided by the new fan caused Run 5 to fail in a naively unexpected way. We heated the cell nearly to the boiling point with the fan off to minimize evaporative losses. When we simultaneously increased the voltage to ~160 and started the fan, the cell did not boil as it did in Run 4. Instead it cooled off, as depicted in the plot to the right. It didn't take long to figure out why...the input power was 75 watts and the cooling rate was initially 100 watts. Because the cell did not boil during Run 5, the calorimetry strategy was spoiled and we were not able to obtain a power balance. However, this run brings the differences between our efforts and those of Mizuno and Ohmori into sharp focus. Look at these comparisons: Parameter description O&M value EarthTech value Run 5 electrical input power 76 watts 75 watts heat lost thru walls of cell 99 watts 102 watts heat lost via steam 74 watts did not boil cell voltage 160 volts 160.6 volts average cell current 0.48 amperes 0.45 amperes Unfortunately, there are still two possible explanations for the glaring discrepancy between our results: 1. Mizuno & Ohmori's cell has a significant additional source of heat inside it. 2. Mizuno & Ohmori are significantly undermeasuring the electrical input power to their cell. Next, we will endeavor to determine which of these two possibilities is correct. little eden.com Hi Scott, Out of curiosity, does "heat lost via steam" include "heat lost via water vapor" in general? Did your Run 5 have the same tank surface to volume ratio as the corresponding Mizuno run? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 11:13:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25350; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:09:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:09:32 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000119125035.018fab28 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000119132017.0079c100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:06:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fjj441.0.0C6.ilWXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 01:20 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>I can't read it. The pictures blot out the text with Microsoft Internet >>Explorer version 5.00.2915.6307IC. (Just think: I may be the only person in >>the world with this particular version!) > >Damn! I'm using version 5.00.2314.1003 and it works perfectly. ***{Your original version was read just fine by my system. I think Jed's browser is the problem. --MJ}*** [snip] > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 11:13:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26408; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:11:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:11:17 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF626D.F0D17780 istf-1-34.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:11:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF626D.F0D60B60" Resent-Message-ID: <"-a31R3.0.YS6.KnWXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF626D.F0D60B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott,=20 I seem to remember there were differences in your stirring methods vs. = Mizuno's: type of stirrer or rate of stirring - what were those = differences? [I know this has been mentioned in the past, but I don't have good = access to the archives right now (slow connection).] Dan Quickert ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF626D.F0D60B60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiATAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAqAEAAAEAAAARAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAADAHE6AAAAAB4A9l8BAAAAFAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AAgH3XwEAAABFAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1v LmNvbQBTTVRQAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AAAAAAwD9XwEAAAADAP9fAAAAAAIB9g8BAAAA BAAAAAAAAAK4VgEEgAEAFQAAAFJFOiBNaXp1bm8zMDAgLSBSdW41AN0FAQWAAwAOAAAA0AcBABMA CwALAB0AAwAhAQEggAMADgAAANAHAQATAAsAAgAkAAMAHwEBCYABACEAAABDRkU5OEE3RjkyQ0VE MzExOTk3MkMyMDQ2MDAwMDAwMAADBwEDkAYAtAQAACIAAAALAAIAAQAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAA AAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAcK2N/bBivwEeAHAAAQAAABUAAABSRTogTWl6 dW5vMzAwIC0gUnVuNQAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABv2Kw/Yx/iunQzpIR05lywgRgAAAAAAAeAB4M AQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFwAAAGRlcXVpY2tlcnRAdWNkYXZpcy5lZHUAAAMABhAN 951GAwAHEOgAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABTQ09UVCxJU0VFTVRPUkVNRU1CRVJUSEVSRVdFUkVESUZG RVJFTkNFU0lOWU9VUlNUSVJSSU5HTUVUSE9EU1ZTTUlaVU5PUzpUWVBFT0ZTVElSUkVST1JSQVRF T0ZTVElSUklOAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAgQEAAH0BAADwAQAATFpGdf0xmg93AAoBAwH3IAKkA+MCAGOC aArAc2V0MCAHE4cCgwBQDvZwcnEyD/YmfQqACMggOwlvMjVmNQKACoF1YwBQCwNjAwBBC2BuZzEw MzNvC6YGAAWgAkAsCuMKgEkCIA+wZW0gdG8gXwlwB4AG0ASQF5BoBJBlVCB3GIJkBpBmGIFuZmMH kQuAIHkIYRdAdOxpcgUQFXAgB4AYYARwEQQgdnMuBdBpenUgbm8nczoXkHlwORigb2YaRBgxBbFy YfZ0HHgaoi0YsA+ABUAYw1cbAQ+wGQo/FtRbFzBr7xvgB+AYYAQAIA+ABCAYIPcJ8BrRAjBpAiAJ gBnCGGHOIAqwGlAWsGJ1BUAXMFpkAiAnBUAPgHYYoGf6bwRwIADQGZEEIBehIvI7CsAPcGkkcAQg BRBnaHMFQCECKHMJAAfgBaBuxSKAYyJSKS5dFtQW1IJEA5FRdWljawSQ/nQoNRUQAUARQBaAJ6EQ hCwxNhbUEgEAK/AAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAHgBCEAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAMAgBD/////QAAH MOCznL+vYr8BQAAIMOCznL+vYr8BCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAGA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAADz FQAAHgADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAFAAAAOC4wNAAAAAADAASACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAG gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAAeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAA AAAAAB4ACIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEA AAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AADY5Q== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF626D.F0D60B60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 11:25:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30857; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:24:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:24:24 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <83.c6323a.25b7695b aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:24:11 EST Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"XLqF53.0._X7.ezWXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/19/00 10:22:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run5/run5.html > > I can't read it. The pictures blot out the text with Microsoft Internet > Explorer version 5.00.2915.6307IC. (Just think: I may be the only person in > the world with this particular version!) > > - Jed > Yeah, I've had that problem too on various websites but not Scott's. Aol built in browser seem to mostly work ok. When I have a problem I start up Netscape 4.0 which never has had a problem...ever! I did install MS Explorer once but deleted it after about 20 minutes. Hated it. Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 11:37:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02067; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:35:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:35:07 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:45:35 -0500 Message-ID: <20000119194535984.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"M3D3L.0.DW.h7XXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >Damn! I'm using version 5.00.2314.1003 and it works perfectly. Can you >read this one: This is hilarious :) Have you had a chance to adjust/tune the stirring speed? Differences in stirring rates will affect the boiling rate of even resistance heating configurations. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 11:54:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08138; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:52:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:52:21 -0800 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:51:18 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 In-Reply-To: <385702492.948160746415.JavaMail.root web36.pub01> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qFPYw2.0.4_1.qNXXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark What wind generator did you use? What were its specs? Hank Proud owner of a Tropica electric sports car. 72v, two 11HP DC motors Range 40 miles, top speed 62 mph On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Mark Goldes wrote: > Hi Knuke, > > GM is a complex firm with some innovative divisions and people and some that > are not. Their EV program is part of Saturn which is made up of the best of > the former. > > The ad budget for EV1 is enormous. Look at the web page Bob referenced and > you will get some idea of the ads. Full page in papers here in California > and local editions of the NY Times and Wall St Journal as well as many > national magazines. > > Conversions are still done by many people. They fall far short of > performance of the EV1 with very few exceptions. Composites are extremely > costly. Efforts are under way by several firms to find ways to make them > more cheaply. > > There were more than 20 electric car makers in the U.S. following the 1973 > oil crunch. None have survived making passenger vehicles. Ford recently > established a division to sell electric bikes and the "Th1nk" electric car, > etc. The latter, in my opinion, is dangerous on U.S. streets and highways. > Having lost five friends in car wrecks I'm underwhelmed by small, light > vehicles. I used to drive such, but after the fifth friend died I decided > safety was much more important than it seemed when I was younger. > > We built a Windmobile in 1975. It was a composite wind electric hybrid that > made the cover of Popular Science in November of 1976. Later prototypes, > constructed by the son of the inventor, featured solar cells on the arched > wing sail that was shaped something like a McDonalds sign between the two > rear wheels of this three wheeler. A large variation by a team from Hawaii > (sponsored by a shampoo company) gave the GM team a bit of a fright in the > first solar race across Australia. It did 82mph in the speed trials powered > by wind alone. Unfortunately, the wind died the day the race began and GM > cruised to an easy victory. We were never able to find sufficient capital > to put Windmobiles into production. Perhaps someday... > > > > > ------Original Message------ > From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: January 17, 2000 3:47:02 AM GMT > Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 > > > Hi Mark, et. al. > > Thanks for the comeback, Mark. To be quite honest, I have to admit a > personal bias against GM for their labor and business practices, and > especially those regarding their offering of an alternatively fueled > vehicle. As the perfect example, I didn't even know that they had an EV1 > until someone posted it just within the last week or so. I've not seen any > magazine ads, Internet ads, TV ads or any other kind of promotional material > for the thing, so it is no surprise to me that there has been no demand. > > Instead, I've only seen ads for gas powered vehicles, mainly SUVs, luxury > cars, and minivans, and I keep reading statements like "America likes really > great, big cars", and "we see no particular need" for producing an electric > vehicle. We all know that positive advertising creates demand, no > advertising or even at times negative advertising, doesn't. > > Leasing a car as opposed to buying just doesn't appeal to everyone either, > and if that was the only way the EV1 was offered, then GM (purposely?) > limited their market further in this way, as well. I suppose also that they > priced it well beyond its actual value, but I don't know what the price was, > so I probably shouldn't say. This is only a guess based on GM's past > performance history of selling junk, foot dragging, and profit taking. > > I've seen conversions of regular cars, and one light duty pick-up truck to > electric power in working demos that only cost $3000 to convert. These cars > had steel bodies, etc. and all the other normal stuff that cars have. They > were normal cars. What this tells me is that a roadworthy, light-weight, > aerodynamically shaped vehicle built out of composites could be mass > produced for around the same price or less, as a golf cart. > > Base sticker prices for personal transportation could be well under $5,000, > again. We would then have an affordable, mid-range (150-200 miles) commuter > vehicle that would not make noise or pollute the planet. People could rent > gas powered cars or take mass transit (trains, buses, and planes) for longer > trips, and save themselves about $15,000 per vehicle purchase. The option > of renting EVs would be available as well in most urban areas. Since > electric cars are less prone to fail mechanically, the EV owners would > retain a great deal of the value of the vehicle for a longer period of time, > as well. No tune-ups, or oil changes, etc., either. > > If GM had approached the electric car market with the right attitude, they > could have made a bundle by now, and contributed a great deal to the good > health of everyone as well. It is really too bad that their management has > their collective head stuck in the19th century. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > ______________________________________________ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 11:56:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29435; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:53:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:53:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:57:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RF Test In-Reply-To: <8.32196d.25b54a1b aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UyE0u.0.qB7.TOXXu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y Dear Folks, A 'not-too-bad' test can be made... for RF from AM !! only !!! transistor radio. Radio Shack has a model called "FlavoRadio" usually under 10 dollars, often on sale.... This is a good RFI, or Radio Frequency Interference 'hash' detector. John On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 BriggsRO aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/17/00 12:16:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com > writes: > > << Varied the cell voltage around (140-180 volts) while in incandescent mode > and did not observe any significant changes in the sound of the RF signals. > There is no apparent peak of FR activity in this range. > >> > Hi Scott, > > The radio is a good indicator of rf but since it no doubt has an automatic > gain control, doesn't tell you much about amplitude over a fairly wide range > of rf input energy. > > Regards, > > Bob > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 12:16:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19705; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:14:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:14:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:09:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"qLYpA2.0.lp4.niXXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I finally succeeded in matching the voltage, current, and cooling rate >reported by M&O in the IE#27 article. The result was surprising...but only >because I wasn't anticipating it. The difference between our experiments >is now in sharper focus but still undecided between two distinct >possibilities. > >Read all about it at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run5/run5.html ***{In your writeup you said: "We heated the cell nearly to the boiling point with the fan off to minimize evaporative losses. When we simultaneously increased the voltage to ~160 and started the fan, the cell did not boil as it did in Run 4. Instead it cooled off, as depicted in the plot to the right. It didn't take long to figure out why...the input power was 75 watts and the cooling rate was initially 100 watts." I would try putting the cell at 160 volts and letting it begin to boil before turning on the fan. That's going to produce some steam emissions at a lower cooling rate, of course, but if the cathode goes OU, the brief interval between initiation of boiling and flipping on the fan will negligibly impact the numbers. At another point, you said: "To reduce the current consumed by our cell, we decreased the size of the rectangular W cathode from 5 mm x 10 mm to 3.3 mm x 5.4 mm." In the article by Ohmori and Mizuno [IE #27, pg. 34] they say that their cathode had an area of .5 cm^2, which yields a square about 7 mm on a side. Thus you are very close to their cathode configuration now. But what about their anode configuration? Theirs was #80 platinum mesh, 1 cm by 7 cm. If that is what you are using, then about the only variable left for you to play with would be the speed of the stirrer and the background count. Slowing the stirrer down would be the indicated way to go, I think, since you want to bring the cell to a boil. If that doesn't work, then I think it is time for you to try sticking a C-60, or similar, radioactive source next to the cell, as I suggested several months ago. (It can't hurt! :-) By the way: did you pick up anything on the short wave band? --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 12:16:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20511; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:15:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:15:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000119151430.0079e540 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:14:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <83.c6323a.25b7695b aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NGqp8.0.4w4.4jXXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote: >I did install MS Explorer once but deleted it after about 20 minutes. Hated >it. Gee, you should have used Version 5.00.2915.6307IC. It's a dilly! A real vintage release. Y' gotta love anything over 5.00.291. Now 5.00.1x was a dog. It crashed every time I tried to download Japanese with an ADSL connection. But that's predictable, isn't it? I mean, you can't expect software to work with just any old hardware. You have to get this version soon or whattayaknow we'll be up to release 6 and you will miss your chance! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 12:17:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20125; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:15:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:15:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000119150826.0079a690 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:08:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000119125035.018fab28 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000119132017.0079c100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GJjlU.0.5w4.4jXXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Damn! I'm using version 5.00.2314.1003 and it works perfectly. Can you >read this one: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run4/run4.html Yeah, that's fine. >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run5/run5nosp.html A little overlapping. I tried changing the text size to "small" and that helped, but there is still a problem. It works when I change "encoding" from Western European (Windows) to Japanese EUC. Why did you write in Japanese? That musta been a lotta extra work. It displays fine. Japanese auto-detect does not work. (Note: most English alpha characters display as alphas in Japanese encoding. The French and German stuff with accent marks sometimes comes out as amusing and meaningless characters. Americans and Japanese are insular when it comes to foreign typographic symbols.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 12:26:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26312; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:24:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:24:57 -0800 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:29:55 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Lynn Kurtz Subject: And all be nice About Lynn Kurtz[[ And NAMES and People are much intweresting without being hurtful.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"f8X5o2.0.2R6.PsXXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, Can't we all be nice... AND: This matter will help me to try to not make assumptions ...especially based on the spelling of names. AND: ... on the matter of names.. I know a few poeple whose names get me all bollixed up, or ABU Morgan Gary ... a nice gal who I keep wanting to call Gary Does anyone have any other names with not usual end result? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:39:00 -0500 From: Larry Wharton Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: About Lynn Kurtz Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:39:19 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Mitchell Jones Posted: > >***{The last name is Jones, not Swartz. You need to do something about that >memory hole, old gal! (Or old guy, or whatever you are.) --MJ}*** Here Mitchell is expressing some question about the gender of Lynn Kurtz and is suggesting that she is old. The problem is that no man anyone here knows has Lynn for a first name but she has stipulated that she be referred to in the masculine gender. My guess is that she is a woman and getting there in age at about 54. She is a mathematics professor at Arizona State University and has been there about 32 years. Her main interest here on Vortex seems to be making fun of the cf true believers which seems a little strange for an old (or getting there) mathematics professor. I always read her posts because I think that it is good to make fun of the cf believers. I like to see a bit of reality making its way into the fantasy world of cf. For my part I look upon the cf stuff as an amusing diversion into fantasy land which I mostly ignore while I am looking for any useful information about vortices. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 12:44:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02841; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:41:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:41:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:36:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"DT7vW2.0.Ji.96YXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >At another point, you said: > >"To reduce the current consumed by our cell, we decreased >the size of the rectangular W cathode from 5 mm x 10 mm >to 3.3 mm x 5.4 mm." > >In the article by Ohmori and Mizuno [IE #27, pg. 34] they say that their >cathode had an area of .5 cm^2, which yields a square about 7 mm on a side. >Thus you are very close to their cathode configuration now. ***{I just re-read this message, and noticed that when I typed in the above sentence, I was looking at your original numbers (5 mm x 10 mm), rather than at the current numbers (3.3 mm x 5.4 mm). Thus your present cathode area is 17.82 mm^2, whereas Mizuno's was 50 mm^2, so you are *not* close to his configuration. Thus I think you need to reduce the current consumed by your cell in some other way. Why not reduce the molarity of the electrolyte? That should work. --MJ}*** [snip] > >--Mitchell Jones}*** > >> >> >> >> >>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 12:45:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05569; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:44:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:44:16 -0800 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:43:53 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Found On Road Dead (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA05509 Resent-Message-ID: <"58WYY3.0.xM1.W8YXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A cross post from the EV list. Hank ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 18 Jan 2000 17:26:29 -0800 (added by MTA sj-mailproxy03.mytalk.com) From: cowtown myTalk.com Reply-To: ev listproc.sjsu.edu To: ev listproc.sjsu.edu Subject: Found On Road Dead Well, here I am, 1 week into Ranger EV ownership, and I now have run the NiMH pack *dead*! One thing I've learned is the analog distance guage is not quite accurate, but then, I had to take it off charge early, so it's mostly my fault. That mileage meter has a yellow area near the end - that's when the "gaspump with an electric plug" lights up - and a red mark below that, which puts it into power limit. The yellow light came on nearly 10mi *before* I got to work at the beginning of the grade that crosses those coastal hills before the S.F.Bay-area. I left work with "power limit" lit up in red, tried to keep it to 50mph, then couldn't get it over 40...etc, etc. I was off the freeway and creeping at 10mph before it went totally dead - auxillary battery kept the warning lights going, but no brake/steering boosts. I'll definitely have to get the 100mi service plan w/ AAA - they only cover 5mi of towing, but my engrossing discussion of EVs dissuaded the driver from adding for the 3-4mi more that it took to get to a charger. Luckily, not nearly Waylandesque enough to impress anyone... *** Free voicemail and email, by phone or Web! Free phone calls too! Get it today at http://www.myTalk.com *** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 13:42:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13881; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:39:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:39:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:34:04 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200001192134.QAA05833 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"m2vaq1.0.hO3.oxYXu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If we're going to look for -any- possible difference, which may be the CF 'trigger', then perhaps something offbeat like the type (spectrums) of illumination in the labs, both ambient (windows), background (overheads) and that directed right on the experiment, along with the material type of the cell enclosure, per transmitting the various wavelengths. Maybe CF is photo-sensitive? Given lack of theory, (most) anything is possible. Or, to extend per Mitchell J_, background radiation spectrums and counts between the two lab settings. Or, background vibratory (ultrasound?) sources, or dampening thereof, including background seismic activity, or building machinery sources. Or, even, background air content/contamination. Or, etc, into the unknown ('torsion' sources?)... ;-) Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 13:57:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05096; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:54:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:54:41 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: And all be nice About Lynn Kurtz[[ And NAMES and People are much intweresting without being hurtful.... Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:05:06 -0500 Message-ID: <20000119220506453.AAA270 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"OVEMB2.0.YF1.XAZXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John writes: > Does anyone have any other names with not usual end result? I knew two people in Germany, both Americans. One was named Colonel Oberst, and the other Melvin Fick. When Colonel Oberst would introduce himself, the bi-linguals would cross their eyes. When Melvin would introduce himself, people would drop things on the floor and shoot hot coffee through their noses. I knew another guy with a funny name story, but it would take to long to write. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 14:28:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17302; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:27:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:27:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:23:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3vV5w1.0.GE4.IfZXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:06 PM 1/19/00 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Out of curiosity, does "heat lost via steam" include >"heat lost via water vapor" in general? Yes, it's determined by weighing the cell before and after and calculating the heat required to evaporate that much water. >Did your Run 5 have the same tank surface to volume >ratio as the corresponding Mizuno run? Approximately. Our cell diameters are both in the 50-60 mm range. At 11:11 AM 1/19/00 -0800, Dan Quickert wrote: >Scott, >I seem to remember there were differences in your stirring methods vs. Mizuno's: type of stirrer or rate of stirring - what were those differences? >[I know this has been mentioned in the past, but I don't have good access to the archives right now (slow connection).] Dan, once I used a mechanical stirrer but all subsequent runs have been with a magnetically driven stirrer as Mizuno uses. Mine rotates at about 9-10 Hz, which is sufficient to visually homogenize the bubbles in the cell. I have not asked him about his stirrer speed yet. At 02:45 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >Have you had a chance to adjust/tune the stirring >speed? Differences in stirring rates will affect the boiling rate of even >resistance heating configurations. No adjustments yet. However, I did match their cooling rate and the "stirring factor" was certainly a part of that cooling rate. At 02:36 PM 1/19/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{I just re-read this message, and noticed that when I typed in the above >sentence, I was looking at your original numbers (5 mm x 10 mm), rather >than at the current numbers (3.3 mm x 5.4 mm). Thus your present cathode >area is 17.82 mm^2, whereas Mizuno's was 50 mm^2, so you are *not* close to >his configuration. Thus I think you need to reduce the current consumed by >your cell in some other way. Why not reduce the molarity of the >electrolyte? That should work. --MJ}*** At Mizuno's suggestion, I have already tried 1/4 the usual concentration (i.e. 0.05M) and it made no significant difference. This is not too surprising since the cell impedance (about 200 ohms) is dominated by the gas sheath around the cathode...not the conductivity of the electrolyte. >By the way: did you pick up anything on the short wave band? Not much! I was surprised by the lack of noise from this run. I need to get both radios set up side-by-side for comparison. Maybe, as Briggs said, my newer radio has an automatic gain control which made the weak noise signal relatively loud. I doubt if the Hallicrafters has automatic anything...it has only 6 tubes ("valves" if you're British) in it. BTW, I really don't expect to find any voltage-dependent peaks in the RF signal amongst other bands of RF that don't show such peaks. This is a simple experiment with very little in the way of potential resonant structures that could create such complex behavior. To first order it is a spark-gap transmitter and, as such, it's RF signal will be broadband and everywhere consistently proportional. If you disagree, please provide some hypothesis for the peak structure you suggested that I search for. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 14:40:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20634; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:39:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:39:10 -0800 Message-ID: <005901bf62ce$f9c97de0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Additions at BLP website Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:46:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"C-1QG2.0.K25.EqZXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following additions have been made at the BLP website: http://www.blacklightpower.com/experiments.html 1. Temporal Behavior of Light-Emission in the Visible Spectral Range from the Ti-KCO3-H-Cell 2. Electrical and Optical Characteristics of Hydrino Plasma - 7. Detail on Technology and Representative Technical Support New (Partial Listing) - I have not read all of item 7 yet, but I found item 2 to be short and quite interesting. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 14:52:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25605; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:48:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:48:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:43:38 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200001192243.RAA28158 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jv1PQ.0.nF6.8zZXu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since I'm getting carried away with possible ideas for differences between the two labs, here's a more down to earth one. Perhaps the quality of the power supply makes some difference in CF operation? This would be in the PS's instantaneous response to changes in conductivity, and its ability to source current more or less quickly. Presumably, faster is better. >From this point of view, 160V is not always 160V, in quality. Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 14:52:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25115; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:50:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:50:08 -0800 Message-ID: <382360989.948319998699.JavaMail.root web36.pub01> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:13:18 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: hank scudder , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Windmobiles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.165 Resent-Message-ID: <"59Qrw3.0.L86.V-ZXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank, The windmobiles used a wing sail bent in the shape of an arch between the two rear wheels. There was no conventional wind generator involved. The prototype vehicle would cruise at 4.3 times the speed of a crosswind if the wind speed was 9mph or more. The sail was 8 feet high and the rear wheels were 8 feet apart. Later models by the inventor's son were a bit shorter and narrower. These later models had sails covered with solar cells. ------Original Message------ From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: January 19, 2000 7:51:18 PM GMT Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Mark What wind generator did you use? What were its specs? Hank Proud owner of a Tropica electric sports car. 72v, two 11HP DC motors Range 40 miles, top speed 62 mph On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Mark Goldes wrote: > Hi Knuke, > > GM is a complex firm with some innovative divisions and people and some that > are not. Their EV program is part of Saturn which is made up of the best of > the former. > > The ad budget for EV1 is enormous. Look at the web page Bob referenced and > you will get some idea of the ads. Full page in papers here in California > and local editions of the NY Times and Wall St Journal as well as many > national magazines. > > Conversions are still done by many people. They fall far short of > performance of the EV1 with very few exceptions. Composites are extremely > costly. Efforts are under way by several firms to find ways to make them > more cheaply. > > There were more than 20 electric car makers in the U.S. following the 1973 > oil crunch. None have survived making passenger vehicles. Ford recently > established a division to sell electric bikes and the "Th1nk" electric car, > etc. The latter, in my opinion, is dangerous on U.S. streets and highways. > Having lost five friends in car wrecks I'm underwhelmed by small, light > vehicles. I used to drive such, but after the fifth friend died I decided > safety was much more important than it seemed when I was younger. > > We built a Windmobile in 1975. It was a composite wind electric hybrid that > made the cover of Popular Science in November of 1976. Later prototypes, > constructed by the son of the inventor, featured solar cells on the arched > wing sail that was shaped something like a McDonalds sign between the two > rear wheels of this three wheeler. A large variation by a team from Hawaii > (sponsored by a shampoo company) gave the GM team a bit of a fright in the > first solar race across Australia. It did 82mph in the speed trials powered > by wind alone. Unfortunately, the wind died the day the race began and GM > cruised to an easy victory. We were never able to find sufficient capital > to put Windmobiles into production. Perhaps someday... > > > > > ------Original Message------ > From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: January 17, 2000 3:47:02 AM GMT > Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 > > > Hi Mark, et. al. > > Thanks for the comeback, Mark. To be quite honest, I have to admit a > personal bias against GM for their labor and business practices, and > especially those regarding their offering of an alternatively fueled > vehicle. As the perfect example, I didn't even know that they had an EV1 > until someone posted it just within the last week or so. I've not seen any > magazine ads, Internet ads, TV ads or any other kind of promotional material > for the thing, so it is no surprise to me that there has been no demand. > > Instead, I've only seen ads for gas powered vehicles, mainly SUVs, luxury > cars, and minivans, and I keep reading statements like "America likes really > great, big cars", and "we see no particular need" for producing an electric > vehicle. We all know that positive advertising creates demand, no > advertising or even at times negative advertising, doesn't. > > Leasing a car as opposed to buying just doesn't appeal to everyone either, > and if that was the only way the EV1 was offered, then GM (purposely?) > limited their market further in this way, as well. I suppose also that they > priced it well beyond its actual value, but I don't know what the price was, > so I probably shouldn't say. This is only a guess based on GM's past > performance history of selling junk, foot dragging, and profit taking. > > I've seen conversions of regular cars, and one light duty pick-up truck to > electric power in working demos that only cost $3000 to convert. These cars > had steel bodies, etc. and all the other normal stuff that cars have. They > were normal cars. What this tells me is that a roadworthy, light-weight, > aerodynamically shaped vehicle built out of composites could be mass > produced for around the same price or less, as a golf cart. > > Base sticker prices for personal transportation could be well under $5,000, > again. We would then have an affordable, mid-range (150-200 miles) commuter > vehicle that would not make noise or pollute the planet. People could rent > gas powered cars or take mass transit (trains, buses, and planes) for longer > trips, and save themselves about $15,000 per vehicle purchase. The option > of renting EVs would be available as well in most urban areas. Since > electric cars are less prone to fail mechanically, the EV owners would > retain a great deal of the value of the vehicle for a longer period of time, > as well. No tune-ups, or oil changes, etc., either. > > If GM had approached the electric car market with the right attitude, they > could have made a bundle by now, and contributed a great deal to the good > health of everyone as well. It is really too bad that their management has > their collective head stuck in the19th century. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > ______________________________________________ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 > > Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 15:07:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31369; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:06:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:06:21 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF628E.C4A88600 istf-1-34.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mizuno300 - Run5 (stirring) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:06:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF628E.C4A88600" Resent-Message-ID: <"Mih823.0.yf7.iDaXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF628E.C4A88600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott wrote: > Dan, once I used a mechanical stirrer but all subsequent runs have > been with a magnetically driven stirrer as Mizuno uses. Mine rotates > at about 9-10 Hz, which is sufficient to visually homogenize the > bubbles in the cell. I have not asked him about his stirrer speed = yet. The reason I was asking is that those magnetic stirrers must create some = sort of field. I forget if the stirrer piece that goes inside the = reaction vessel is a magnet?... anyway they come in different sizes, and = I would think that they would therefore have different mag field effects = - especially if it is a magnet; the speed obviously would add to any = such effect. Dan Quickert ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF628E.C4A88600 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih8XAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAqAEAAAEAAAARAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAADAHE6AAAAAB4A9l8BAAAAFAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AAgH3XwEAAABFAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1v LmNvbQBTTVRQAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AAAAAAwD9XwEAAAADAP9fAAAAAAIB9g8BAAAA BAAAAAAAAAK4VgEEgAEAIAAAAFJFOiBNaXp1bm8zMDAgLSBSdW41IChzdGlycmluZykAwAkBBYAD AA4AAADQBwEAEwAPAAYAHAADAB8BASCAAwAOAAAA0AcBABMADgA7ACwAAwBjAQEJgAEAIQAAADIz RUE4QTdGOTJDRUQzMTE5OTcyQzIwNDYwMDAwMDAwAOcGAQOQBgDMBQAAIgAAAAsAAgABAAAACwAj AAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQAQnvnQ0WK/AR4AcAABAAAA IAAAAFJFOiBNaXp1bm8zMDAgLSBSdW41IChzdGlycmluZykAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb9i0dD1f4rq JM6SEdOZcsIEYAAAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABcAAABkZXF1aWNrZXJ0 QHVjZGF2aXMuZWR1AAADAAYQSHYV1wMABxAbAgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAU0NPVFRXUk9URTpEQU4s T05DRUlVU0VEQU1FQ0hBTklDQUxTVElSUkVSQlVUQUxMU1VCU0VRVUVOVFJVTlNIQVZFQkVFTldJ VEhBTUFHTkVUSUNBTExZRFJJVkVOU1RJUlJFUgAAAAACAQkQAQAAAJECAACNAgAAcwMAAExaRnWN jSvddwAKAQMB9yACpAPjAgBjgmgKwHNldDAgBxNNAoB9CoAIyCA7CW8yzDU1AoAKgXVjAFALAwZj AEELYG5nMTAznjMLpgYABaACQCB3A2B4dGU6CqIKhBNiD+A+JCBEAHAsIAIgY2UQIEkgdQ+wZCBh LiAHgA9xAwBjB0Agc5h0aXIJcAXAYnUFQNMHQBhxdWIPsHEKUAIwmCBydQYxD4B2ZRWUjRaQYgnh FSBpdGgXshhhZ24PwBhCbHkgXmQFEBqwA6AYlmEEIE0UaXoaUG8XYnMuIO8d8RxAGjAU8GEVYA9A GuVPH2AXsAbgGSE5LRQAIORIehbgd2gYQBvQBABfGYEBIBhACJAaEXQeUHaVBAB1HJNoA3BvZwnw /x4QFzAbwBrIGaACYAeRC4B9I+IgFyAZYB6xF1AakiCzHkAZMXNrF5EhUG0gRWchUCGxGKVzcAng F6B57Q/ALhWYCoBUJWEJcB3QuwIgF0F3HdEmsQuAZyGS9xvAICEbwG8PsBwHGIYEIP5tF3AFQAUA KiAVYBiAA3BnLfIAIBbwZiAiACWgZPcesBdQAhByI4AFQAaQJUOdGJZwCJAXISuDZ28k8+8AkAEA JUMqEWMYoCpRGrDPBBAloCGSG/Y/LjRAF7D8bnkqoBzAI/EcwAWgLjH1JSFkBpBmBJAaAgCQI8D+ cxbgAHAXoCqBCGAvECPh/QuAayt2NRE3NjYBL3EXMG8mIzXIHBEu1CABEQWQdP0EIC07EChxIiAc ky/hG7DNM3o7MAQog29iIrAIYOZzHLE3NGFkN3EeUDSBfxmBIXE7JCkJE2QVoxaxIPxRdRhAJtAA IBZCCqAVQhcysBWUEHEARCAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAHgBCEAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAMAgBD/ ////QAAHMADAH+DQYr8BQAAIMADAH+DQYr8BCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAA AAADAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA AFKFAADzFQAAHgADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAFAAAAOC4wNAAAAAADAASA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAA AAAAAwAGgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAAeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAAYhQAAAAAAAB4ACIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAmACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA OIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AADROw== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF628E.C4A88600-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 15:25:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06824; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:24:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:24:07 -0800 Message-ID: <388647A1.206D suite224.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:24:17 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Electric Vehicle OU? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZTUe-3.0.Tg1.NUaXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Hank, and Vorts: With all these EVs running around, I have to ask if you know of anyone who tried to check out my ram-air-turbine(windmill)-in-front-of-a-car idea? To refresh the concept - some years ago I did a quick study of the posibility of reducing the NET drag on a car by running an efficient air turbine in front of the grill region of a car, and directing the output power from the turbine either to the car drivetrain or to some useful load (air conditioning?) on board the car. This would only make sense for a "utility" class vehicle with a rather high Cd (drag coef.). The mental argument went like this: For a car with a relatively high drag coefficient, could an efficient air turbine, running about at the stagnation point in front of the car, extract more energy from the ram air than was added to the NET road-load of the car + turbine? Obviously, the car has to supply the power to push the turbine shaft through the ambient air. But, the air stream following the turbine may cause enough less drag on the car to make up for this turbine "push" power. With an electric car, the testing could be easy IF the road load traction power could be metered with good accuracy. If a two-bladed air turbine could be used, then a crude test setup might be this: 1. Assume an efficient two-bladed air turbine with generator could be mounted in front of the grill of an electric car. Set this up so that the prop can be locked in a horizontal position across the front of the nose - between the headlights. This could be the "null" or base condition for the test. A crude lock might just be a pin with lanyard attached so the pin could be pulled from the passenger compartment. 2. At first, just load the generator with a resistor instrumented for current and voltage to measure load power. We would also need good instruments on the traction battery buss to measure power to the road load. 3. Pick a calm day and make highway runs with the turbine locked and unlocked - metering all required powers. 4. If the turbine output power exceeds the added road load - effective OU!!! Of course, you would not want to increase the frontal area of the car, and, because of the low, wide fronts on most cars, we may need more than one turbine across the frontal area of the car nose (not for a first test, however!) If you think this sounds like running an electric fan on a sail boat to provide thrust on the sail, I'll understand! :-) But, think about the drag coefficient of many cars, pickups, SUVs, etc. and give the idea time to sink in. When your kid sticks a hand out of your car window, think of the power a small wind turbine could generate at the same location. Then, think how much more you need to push on the accelerator to compensate for the added road load. Hey, this could be a chance for some real "free energy"!! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 16:34:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29626; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:33:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:33:19 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:33:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000119132017.0079c100@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000119125035.018fab28@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000119125035.018fab28 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA29518 Resent-Message-ID: <"E-7l62.0.hE7.DVbXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Distance between cathode and the surface of the fluid will affect the pressure at the cathode (as will barometric pressure), and thus also the thickness of the steam layer. This in turn will affect the breakdown voltage. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 16:35:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29536; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:33:10 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:33:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <388647A1.206D suite224.net> In-Reply-To: <388647A1.206D suite224.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA29508 Resent-Message-ID: <"L_d643.0.QD7.6VbXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:24:17 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] >The mental argument went like this: For a car with a relatively high >drag coefficient, could an efficient air turbine, running about at the >stagnation point in front of the car, extract more energy from the ram >air than was added to the NET road-load of the car + turbine? [snip] A less complicated approach (and probably more efficient) would be to add some fairing to the vehicle to decrease wind resistance. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 16:39:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03170; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:37:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:37:39 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:47:56 -0500 Message-ID: <20000120004756281.AAA44 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"s3Cx.0.Rn.HZbXu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank, You're right, some car and truck bodies are aerodynamically unsound to say the least, and you might as well get something back in terms of energy. A turbine might not be a bad idea. Another thing that I was puzzling over was air conditioning. If you converted a regular car or truck to electric, you would almost have to take out the air conditioner or else provide a separate motor just to drive the condensor. That would put a real drain on the batteries and add additional hardware. I was wondering if a lightweight Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube might be workable for some types of road conditions. Both of our ideas would require some minimal speed before they would be usable, but for some types of driving, they might the perfect electron saver. You might even put the turbine on the output of the hot air portion of a Ranque-Hilsch device. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 17:30:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08279; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:24:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:24:14 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:34:26 -0500 Message-ID: <20000120013426750.AAA228 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"YtSzB.0.B12.xEcXu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >At 02:45 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >>Have you had a chance to adjust/tune the stirring >>speed? Differences in stirring rates will affect the boiling rate of even >>resistance heating configurations. > >No adjustments yet. However, I did match their cooling rate and the >"stirring factor" was certainly a part of that cooling rate. With all the various small differences between the cell volumes, cathode sizes, electrolyte amounts, molarities, and on and on, matching any one variable, such as the cooling rate is not that significant. Just putting a bigger fan on it was the major key for that variable, anyway. What would be more significant, I would think, would be the pressure and temperature conditions at the cathode during the run, and stirring would play a major role. Without the exact same equipment as M&O, pinning down all these variables could take a long time. You are getting closer, though. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:00:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28839; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:59:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:59:42 -0800 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Windmobiles (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ez1E-1.0.S27.DmcXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Try this idea on for size though. Hank ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:13:18 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: hank scudder , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Windmobiles Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:50:08 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Hank, The windmobiles used a wing sail bent in the shape of an arch between the two rear wheels. There was no conventional wind generator involved. The prototype vehicle would cruise at 4.3 times the speed of a crosswind if the wind speed was 9mph or more. The sail was 8 feet high and the rear wheels were 8 feet apart. Later models by the inventor's son were a bit shorter and narrower. These later models had sails covered with solar cells. ------Original Message------ From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: January 19, 2000 7:51:18 PM GMT Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Mark What wind generator did you use? What were its specs? Hank Proud owner of a Tropica electric sports car. 72v, two 11HP DC motors Range 40 miles, top speed 62 mph On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Mark Goldes wrote: > Hi Knuke, > > GM is a complex firm with some innovative divisions and people and some that > are not. Their EV program is part of Saturn which is made up of the best of > the former. > > The ad budget for EV1 is enormous. Look at the web page Bob referenced and > you will get some idea of the ads. Full page in papers here in California > and local editions of the NY Times and Wall St Journal as well as many > national magazines. > > Conversions are still done by many people. They fall far short of > performance of the EV1 with very few exceptions. Composites are extremely > costly. Efforts are under way by several firms to find ways to make them > more cheaply. > > There were more than 20 electric car makers in the U.S. following the 1973 > oil crunch. None have survived making passenger vehicles. Ford recently > established a division to sell electric bikes and the "Th1nk" electric car, > etc. The latter, in my opinion, is dangerous on U.S. streets and highways. > Having lost five friends in car wrecks I'm underwhelmed by small, light > vehicles. I used to drive such, but after the fifth friend died I decided > safety was much more important than it seemed when I was younger. > > We built a Windmobile in 1975. It was a composite wind electric hybrid that > made the cover of Popular Science in November of 1976. Later prototypes, > constructed by the son of the inventor, featured solar cells on the arched > wing sail that was shaped something like a McDonalds sign between the two > rear wheels of this three wheeler. A large variation by a team from Hawaii > (sponsored by a shampoo company) gave the GM team a bit of a fright in the > first solar race across Australia. It did 82mph in the speed trials powered > by wind alone. Unfortunately, the wind died the day the race began and GM > cruised to an easy victory. We were never able to find sufficient capital > to put Windmobiles into production. Perhaps someday... > > > > > ------Original Message------ > From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: January 17, 2000 3:47:02 AM GMT > Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 > > > Hi Mark, et. al. > > Thanks for the comeback, Mark. To be quite honest, I have to admit a > personal bias against GM for their labor and business practices, and > especially those regarding their offering of an alternatively fueled > vehicle. As the perfect example, I didn't even know that they had an EV1 > until someone posted it just within the last week or so. I've not seen any > magazine ads, Internet ads, TV ads or any other kind of promotional material > for the thing, so it is no surprise to me that there has been no demand. > > Instead, I've only seen ads for gas powered vehicles, mainly SUVs, luxury > cars, and minivans, and I keep reading statements like "America likes really > great, big cars", and "we see no particular need" for producing an electric > vehicle. We all know that positive advertising creates demand, no > advertising or even at times negative advertising, doesn't. > > Leasing a car as opposed to buying just doesn't appeal to everyone either, > and if that was the only way the EV1 was offered, then GM (purposely?) > limited their market further in this way, as well. I suppose also that they > priced it well beyond its actual value, but I don't know what the price was, > so I probably shouldn't say. This is only a guess based on GM's past > performance history of selling junk, foot dragging, and profit taking. > > I've seen conversions of regular cars, and one light duty pick-up truck to > electric power in working demos that only cost $3000 to convert. These cars > had steel bodies, etc. and all the other normal stuff that cars have. They > were normal cars. What this tells me is that a roadworthy, light-weight, > aerodynamically shaped vehicle built out of composites could be mass > produced for around the same price or less, as a golf cart. > > Base sticker prices for personal transportation could be well under $5,000, > again. We would then have an affordable, mid-range (150-200 miles) commuter > vehicle that would not make noise or pollute the planet. People could rent > gas powered cars or take mass transit (trains, buses, and planes) for longer > trips, and save themselves about $15,000 per vehicle purchase. The option > of renting EVs would be available as well in most urban areas. Since > electric cars are less prone to fail mechanically, the EV owners would > retain a great deal of the value of the vehicle for a longer period of time, > as well. No tune-ups, or oil changes, etc., either. > > If GM had approached the electric car market with the right attitude, they > could have made a bundle by now, and contributed a great deal to the good > health of everyone as well. It is really too bad that their management has > their collective head stuck in the19th century. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > ______________________________________________ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 > > Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:28:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07355; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:26:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:26:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:55:34 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? In-Reply-To: <388647A1.206D suite224.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"NGQ6y1.0.qo1.L9dXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank As far as I know, this has never been tried, and it sounds quite elaborate and expensive. Hank On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > Hey Hank, and Vorts: > > With all these EVs running around, I have to ask if you know of anyone > who tried to check out my ram-air-turbine(windmill)-in-front-of-a-car > idea? > To refresh the concept - some years ago I did a quick study of the > posibility of reducing the NET drag on a car by running an efficient > air turbine in front of the grill region of a car, and directing the > output power from the turbine either to the car drivetrain or to some > useful load (air conditioning?) on board the car. > This would only make sense for a "utility" class vehicle with a rather > high Cd (drag coef.). > The mental argument went like this: For a car with a relatively high > drag coefficient, could an efficient air turbine, running about at the > stagnation point in front of the car, extract more energy from the ram > air than was added to the NET road-load of the car + turbine? > Obviously, the car has to supply the power to push the turbine shaft > through the ambient air. But, the air stream following the turbine > may cause enough less drag on the car to make up for this turbine > "push" power. > With an electric car, the testing could be easy IF the road load > traction power could be metered with good accuracy. > If a two-bladed air turbine could be used, then a crude test setup might > be this: > 1. Assume an efficient two-bladed air turbine with generator could be > mounted in front of the grill of an electric car. Set this up so that > the prop can be locked in a horizontal position across the front of the > nose - between the headlights. This could be the "null" or base > condition for the test. A crude lock might just be a pin with lanyard > attached so the pin could be pulled from the passenger compartment. > 2. At first, just load the generator with a resistor instrumented for > current and voltage to measure load power. We would also need good > instruments on the traction battery buss to measure power to the road > load. > 3. Pick a calm day and make highway runs with the turbine locked and > unlocked - metering all required powers. > 4. If the turbine output power exceeds the added road load - effective > OU!!! > Of course, you would not want to increase the frontal area of the > car, and, because of the low, wide fronts on most cars, we may need > more than one turbine across the frontal area of the car nose (not for > a first test, however!) > > If you think this sounds like running an electric fan on a sail boat to > provide thrust on the sail, I'll understand! :-) > > But, think about the drag coefficient of many cars, pickups, SUVs, etc. > and give the idea time to sink in. When your kid sticks a hand out of > your car window, think of the power a small wind turbine could generate > at the same location. Then, think how much more you need to push on > the accelerator to compensate for the added road load. > > Hey, this could be a chance for some real "free energy"!! > > Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:49:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13875; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:49:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:49:14 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <38.11b1ed9.25b7d191 aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:48:49 EST Subject: Near-Death Experience (Computer Variety) To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"hc14P.0.TO3.fUdXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For anyone who may have sent me an email or posted a message on Vortex-L addressed my way during the last ten days: my computer went into a coma on January 9 and had to go to Apple's repair center in Rochester, NY, for surgery. The hard drive was saved, so I still have my data, but it'll probably be a few days before I dig out from under the backlog caused by not having a modern computer. It's amazing how dependent one gets on these things. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:49:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14002; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:49:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:49:23 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <93.8c4a08.25b7d196 aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:48:54 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"zVkFh.0.dO3.fUdXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/00 11:36:00 PM, Colin Quinney asked for a fuller explanation of Mills' antigravity device than was given by Baard in his VILLAGE VOICE article. There's an eighteen-page section on antigravity in Mills' 1999 book. Earlier in the book, there's a long development of his model of the electron, which is the basis for his hypothesized antigravity effect. In a message dated 1/7/00 12:17:03 AM, Scott Little wrote, re a paragraph about Mills' antigravity device from Baard's story in THE VILLAGE VOICE: << I can only speculate that Mills is planning to use the classical EM prediction that a charged dipole will self-accelerate and thus, if oriented correctly, act against gravity.>> That isn't it at all. Mills' ideas about antigravity are quite different and highly original. Scott, you can afford to buy lots of good equipment, so you could afford to buy his 1999 book, but evidently you haven't thought it worthwhile to do so. Scott concluded: <> I think that Mills would agree with you on this point. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:49:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13781; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:49:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:49:04 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <40.90ef53.25b7d199 aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:48:57 EST Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"353oR1.0.BN3.VUdXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/7/00 12:00:49 PM, Ed Storms wrote: << A great deal of effort is directed to factors which have very little meaning and totally ignore important variables.>> I couldn't agree more. <> If McKubre treated the important variables so well, then why wasn't he able to reproduce the results that he reported in 1994? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:59:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18402; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:58:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:58:37 -0800 Message-ID: <388672C9.40C9 suite224.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:28:25 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmobiles (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tx5im3.0.SV4.SddXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hank wrote: > > Frank > Try this idea on for size though. (snip) > The windmobiles used a wing sail bent in the shape of an arch between the > two rear wheels. There was no conventional wind generator involved. (snip) Gee, Hank, I get all tingly thinking of you EV guys tacking back and forth across 8 lanes of busy freeway traffic trying to keep the jib from lufting (is that right?). This would have to insite "road rage" to the level of a mass uprising! :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:59:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18360; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:58:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:58:34 -0800 Message-ID: <38866906.485A suite224.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:46:46 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? References: <20000120004756281.AAA44 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nScE93.0.nU4.OddXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: > (snip) Another thing that I was puzzling over was > air conditioning. If you converted a regular car or truck to electric, you > would almost have to take out the air conditioner or else provide a separate > motor just to drive the condensor. That would put a real drain on the > batteries and add additional hardware. I was wondering if a lightweight > Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube might be workable for some types of road > conditions. Both of our ideas would require some minimal speed before they > would be usable, but for some types of driving, they might the perfect > electron saver. Indeed, Knuke, such systems would probably be used on a duty cycle similar to a cruise control - limited to freeway cruise conditions. Air conditioning seems like a natural for ram-air-powered devices - it's when the air conditioning load is a maximum (at higher cruise speeds) that such devices would be outputing usable power. Fitting such devices to a given vehicle "mission profile" would be a real challenge. Also, for an air turbine, it may require some form of deployment to place it a foot or two in front of a vehicle to give the rotor slipstream a semi-normal flow path. For now, I would be fascinated to know if even a crude, say 1 kilowatt, unit would give a net gain at 60 mph. (I see from my old notes that I have a number of 2.73 HP per square foot of ram air cross-section at 70 mph.) Maybe Hank could educate up on how they get air conditioning in the new EVs? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:59:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18346; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:58:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:58:32 -0800 Message-ID: <388664A8.2327 suite224.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:28:08 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? References: <388647A1.206D suite224.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PYH7o3.0.aU4.NddXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > A less complicated approach (and probably more efficient) would be to add > some fairing to the vehicle to decrease wind resistance. Well, I agree, Robin - but extreme fairing tends not to live well with many desired vehicle shapes. A blunt rear end is a real killer for drag. But yes, if the Cd drops below maybe 2.0 or so, my grand "pedestrian meat grinder" would lose viability. Frank Stenger > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 20:12:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10460; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:10:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:10:43 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <59.5c4f30.25b7e4a0 aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:10:08 EST Subject: Re: Additions at BLP website To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"tPBdk3.0.HZ2.3heXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/19/00 2:40:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, george varisys.com writes: > The following additions have been made at the BLP website: > http://www.blacklightpower.com/experiments.html > > 1. Temporal Behavior of Light-Emission in the Visible Spectral Range from > the > Ti-KCO3-H-Cell > 2. Electrical and Optical Characteristics of Hydrino Plasma > - > 7. Detail on Technology and Representative Technical Support > New (Partial Listing) > - > I have not read all of item 7 yet, but I found item 2 to be short > and quite interesting. > Regards, > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East > Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > Heh... the power supply setup he is using is pretty much the same as I am, minus the filter capacitors. At least I know I'm on the right track. On the subject of power supplys, almost done construction of a power control for the high voltage supply. Using a Texmate smart meter that integrates V x I and supplies an analog output that controls via negative feedback a Watlow solid state power controller. I will be able to set a power input to the glow tube and the meter and controller will hold it steady. The Watlow controller arrived today and mounting, wiring are almost complete. Another day or so to calibrate and I will start H2 fill glow calibration runs. BTW Scott, the Texmate meter does not care what the polarity is on the Texmate DD-1 module. Auto polarity. Verified by inputting a test input from a small bench low voltage power supply driving a 2 kohm load. The meter correctly displayed the correct wattage at either positive or negative ground. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 20:43:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA20585; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:41:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:41:33 -0800 Message-ID: <38869250.AB0E4E7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:43:00 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes References: <40.90ef53.25b7d199 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ep2wQ3.0.X15.z7fXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/7/00 12:00:49 PM, Ed Storms wrote: > > << A great deal of effort is directed to factors which have > very little meaning and totally ignore important variables.>> > > I couldn't agree more. > > < well so that no room remains for them to be attacked, hence only these > trivial points remain.>> > > If McKubre treated the important variables so well, then why wasn't he able > to reproduce the results that he reported in 1994? The main problem with P-F effect is the nature of the material being used as the cathode. McKubre simply ran out of "good" material and could not find any more. This was party because changes were made in the way palladium is manufactured and partly because Johnson-Matthey, the main supplier, is unwilling to manufacture and sell small amounts of known active material. Various laboratories attempted to make active material with mixed success. Unfortunately, such efforts require special equipment and money which is currently not available to the field. It has been demonstrated over and over again that certain batches of palladium have a very high success rate and other batches, the majority, are completely dead. We now know why this is the case, but getting "good" material is still a problem. Ed Storms > > > Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 20:56:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25524; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:54:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000119235248.007ae640 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:52:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes In-Reply-To: <38869250.AB0E4E7 ix.netcom.com> References: <40.90ef53.25b7d199 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TkRIu1.0.jE6.-JfXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Various laboratories attempted to make active material with mixed success. >Unfortunately, such efforts require special equipment and money which is >currently not available to the field. It has been demonstrated over and over >again that certain batches of palladium have a very high success rate and >other batches, the majority, are completely dead. We now know why this is the >case, but getting "good" material is still a problem. There are three separate and distinct problems here: 1. Knowing that materials are the issue. 2. Knowing how to identify the good materials. 3. Knowing how to MAKE the good materials. Many researchers in CF never got past step 1. Others tried to devise ways to circumvent the issue, and make lousy Pd material work. Storms himself made the most progress in step 2: identifying good material. But he does not own a precious metals manufacturing plant, and he does not have a $100 million budget, so he is no position to go to step 3. Storms, Cravens, Fleischmann and others have shown how to make modest improvements to materials, by polishing for example, but the core processes of making up the alloy from scratch would require a huge investment of materials and expertise, far greater than all of the money spent on CF in the U.S. since 1980. In the past few days I have learned more about the Johnson Matthey "Type A" palladium with Fleischmann recommends. There is a paragraph about it in the ICCF-7 proc., and Fleischmann gave me some additional information. I will post that on tomorrow or Friday. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 23:43:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29408; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:40:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:40:17 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 02:50:46 -0500 Message-ID: <20000120075046515.AAA262 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"PfweQ2.0.QB7.XlhXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank writes: >Fitting such devices to a given vehicle "mission profile" would be >a real challenge. Also, for an air turbine, it may require some form >of deployment to place it a foot or two in front of a vehicle to give >the rotor slipstream a semi-normal flow path. Not a problem if you ran a low profile airduct under the vehicle to the stern. The turbine could sit where the fuel tank was, and the ductwork could be as large as say, 1" x nearly the width of the vehicle inside the tires. The exhaust would then just flow out the rear unhindered, and the modification would not be visible at all. >For now, I would be fascinated to know if even a crude, say 1 kilowatt, >unit would give a net gain at 60 mph. (I see from my old notes that >I have a number of 2.73 HP per square foot of ram air cross-section at >70 mph.) One thing about the Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube idea, at 70mph, many people might not need airconditioning, but the motor certainly could use it. An electric motor's efficiency drops like a rock when it heats up under a long term load, and this would keep it a lot cooler. The net gain there might be worth the effort. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 00:12:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA03738; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:11:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:11:05 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 03:21:33 -0500 Message-ID: <20000120082133921.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"07p4m.0.Gw.OCiXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Another crazy idea, make the turbine an acrylic Tesla turbine, with Wimhurst HV static collectors on the rim. Then put a Jean-Luis style horizontal blade on the front of the car as a Glow Plasma Fairing. It would not only keep the bugs off of the windscreen, it would zap'em silly as you zoomed along. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 01:14:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA17044; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:13:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:13:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000120040825.009076e0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 04:08:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cathode temperatures / Plated-out Pd - Cu cathodes In-Reply-To: <38869250.AB0E4E7 ix.netcom.com> References: <40.90ef53.25b7d199 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AAMgl.0.EA4.t6jXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:43 PM 1/19/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >The main problem with P-F effect is the nature of the material being used as >the cathode. McKubre simply ran out of "good" material and could not find any >more. This was party because changes were made in the way palladium is >manufactured and partly because Johnson-Matthey, the main supplier, is >unwilling to manufacture and sell small amounts of known active material. >Various laboratories attempted to make active material with mixed success. >Unfortunately, such efforts require special equipment and money which is >currently not available to the field. It has been demonstrated over and over >again that certain batches of palladium have a very high success rate and >other batches, the majority, are completely dead. We now know why this is the >case, but getting "good" material is still a problem. > >Ed Storms Although the above is correct, it is only one of requirements for success, and is often made the excuse for ignoring the other "sine qua non"s. They include material science (1), but also loading (2), and optimal operating point behavior (3) as, perhaps, the most important. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz ====================================================== 1)cf. Swartz, M, "Review of ICCF-7", Fusion Technology, (1/2000) Swartz. M.., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) Swartz, M., "Hydrogen Redistribution By Catastrophic Desorption In Select Transition Metals", Journal of New Energy, 1, 4, 26-33 (1997) Swartz. M., "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion" Vol. 4. "Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research (1994) 2) "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997)) Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300; Swartz, M., 1994, "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode" Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77). "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion Technology, 32. 126-130 (1997) 3) Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox "Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) Swartz. M., 1997, "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74; Swartz, M, 1998, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", "Proceedings of ICCF-7"; Swartz, M, 1998, Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance Using pi-Notch System Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions of the American Nuclear Association, Nashville, Tenn 1998 Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 84-85; Swartz. M., 1997, "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes". IECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009; Swartz. M., 1998). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 04:08:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07453; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 04:04:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 04:04:04 -0800 Message-ID: <022a01bf6346$b92910c0$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: 300Mizuno Run X, Scott vs Mizuno Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 05:03:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"JpcFI.0.Eq1.pclXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Volt-Ampere curve of an electrical discharge represents the product of volts times amperes = Power and positive OU results. Thus if you do not have the the barometric pressure, hydrostatic head, electrode materials, size, and spacing, electrolyte chemistry, atmospheric CO2 absorption, and so on, pinned down, you could slave away until the cows come home, without any fruitful results in replication. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 04:33:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA15051; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 04:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 04:32:36 -0800 Message-ID: <023b01bf634a$b0c39280$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Volt-Ampere Curve Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 05:30:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF6307.76C1DA80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"k6pJC3.0.5h3.a1mXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com 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oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooorLEurLnNujf8CH+NI13qanBsx+HNH27UB/y4/oaa2oaj2sT/3wxqNt VvkOGtQPqrCmnWbsdbdPyNJ/bdwePKQfTNH9sz/88wKQa1MDyufwpf7bl/uCnf23L/zzFIddkHSF fxNOGvN3tx+D/wD1qd/b3/Tt/wCP/wD1qUa8ve3P4NS/24n/ADwf86T+3k/54N/31R/bqdrdv++q P7dX/n3b/vqmnXfSLH15oGuf9Mx+VL/bg/uCnDXE/wCeZpf7cj/55n86f/blt/zzm/If40n9uW39 yb/vkf407+27X+7L/wB8j/Gj+2rT/pp/3zS/21af9NP++aP7atP+mn/fNJ/bVp6Sf980ja1bbTtE mfpiozq8ZzhmHp0/wqeHUvMwFikf1IGT/Kp1uic5t5hzx8tL9qH/ADwn/wC+KBdKesc64/6ZE5/I GhryFQC3mqM94m5/Sm/2jbf32/79t/hQNQticBz+KMP6Ufb4Mj5u/PB4/SrVFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFMMUZOTGpPuKTyIv+eSf98ijyIf+eSf98ij7PD/zxj/75FJ9mg/54R/9 8Ck+y2//ADwi/wC+BR9lt/8AnhF/3wKPstv/AM8Iv++BR9ktv+feL/vgUfZLf/n3i/74FH2S2/59 4v8AvgUfZLf/AJ94v++BSG0t8f8AHvF/3wKbJa24Xi3i/wC+BUUltANuII+v9wU4Wtvj/URf98Cn La2/H7iL/vgU/wCx23/PtD/3wKPsdt/z7Q/98Cj7Hbf8+8P/AHwKX7Jbf8+8X/fAo+y246QRf98C l+zQf88Y/wDvkUfZoP8AnjH/AN8inpGifcRVz6DFOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oor/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF6307.76C1DA80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 06:39:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA09987; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:38:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000120093151.007d9980 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:31:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: 300Mizuno Run X, Scott vs Mizuno In-Reply-To: <022a01bf6346$b92910c0$a6441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TYJlZ2.0.zR2.VtnXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:03 AM 1/20/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >The Volt-Ampere curve of an electrical discharge represents the product of volts times amperes = >Power and positive OU results. > >Thus if you do not have the the barometric pressure, hydrostatic head,>electrode materials, size, and spacing, electrolyte chemistry, atmospheric CO2 absorption, and>so on, pinned down, you could slave away until the cows come home, without any fruitful results >in replication. :-) > >Regards, Frederick No matter how difficult the replication, one CAN do good science none-the-less, and contribute to moving the field ahead. Mitchell Swartz =============================================== References, URLs, and some background on cold fusion are available on the internet at http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html and http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 08:14:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09679; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:13:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:13:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000120111246.0079c360 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:12:46 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The "Type A" palladium saga Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dVghy2.0.9N2.MGpXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For many years Martin Fleischman has been recommending a particular type of palladium made by Johnson Matthey for cold fusion experiments. He has been saying this to anyone who will listen, but very few people do. He handed out several of these ideal cathodes to experienced researchers, and as far as he knows in every case the samples produced excess heat. The material is called "Type A" palladium. It was developed decades ago for use in hydrogen diffusion tubes: filters that allow hydrogen to pass while holding back other gasses. This alloy was designed to have great structural integrity under high loading. It lasts for years, withstanding cracking and deformation that would quickly destroy other alloys and allow other gasses to seep through the filters. This robustness happens to be the quality we need for cold fusion. The main reason cold fusion is difficult to reproduce is because when bulk palladium loads with deuterium, it cracks, bends, distorts and it will not load above a certain level, usually ~60%, I think. Below 85 to 90% loading bulk palladium never produces excess heat. A sample of palladium chosen at random from most suppliers will *never* reach this level of loading. You could perform thousands of tests for cold fusion with ordinary palladium, with perfect confidence that you will never see measurable excess heat. That is essentially what the NHE did: they performed the wrong experiment hundreds of times in succession, using materials which everyone knows cannot work. This is like trying to make a 27-story building out of doughnuts. It seems likely to me that most of the reproducibility problems with bulk palladium CF would have been solved years ago if people had only listened to Martin Fleischman's advice. Alas, in my experience, people seldom listen to advice or follow directions. Fleischman sometimes compounds the problem by speaking in a cryptic, convoluted style and by using complex mathematical equations that few other people can understand. He sometimes takes a long time to respond to inquiries; he answered one of my questions two years after I asked. However, in this case he has made himself quite clear on many occasions. For example, he wrote: . . . We note that whereas "blank experiments" are always entirely normal (e.g. See Figs 1-5) it is frequently impossible to find *any* measurement cycle for the Pd-D2O system which shows such normal behaviour. Of course, in the absence of adequate "blank experiments" such abnormalities have been attributed to malfunctions of the calorimetry, e.g. see (10). [Ikegami et al.] However, the correct functioning of "blank experiments" shows that the abnormalities must be due to fluctuating sources of excess enthalpy. The statements made in this paragraph are naturally subject to the restriction that a "satisfactory electrode material" be used i.e. a material intrinsically capable of producing excess enthalpy generation and which maintains its structural integrity throughout the experiment. Most of our own investigations have been carried out with a material which we have described as Johnson Matthey Material Type A. This material is prepared by melting under a blanket gas of cracked ammonia (or else its synthetic equivalent) the concentrations of five key classes of impurities being controlled. Electrodes are then produced by a succession of steps of square rolling, round rolling and, finally, drawing with appropriate annealing steps in the production cycle. [Proc. ICCF-7, p. 121] Fleischman recently gave the some additional information. The ammonia atmosphere leaves hydrogen in the palladium which controls recrystallization. Unfortunately, this material is very difficult to acquire and there is practically none left in the world, because Johnson Matthey stopped making it several years ago. Palladium for diffusion tubes is now made using a different process in which the palladium is melted under argon. Material made with the newer technique might also work satisfactorily in cold fusion experiments, but Fleischman never had an opportunity to test it so he does not know. There should be plenty of the new material available, so perhaps someone should buy a sample and try it. Johnson Matthey has offered to make more of the older style Type A for use in cold fusion experiments. They will charge ~$20,000 per ingot, which is a reasonable price. Fortunately, the precise methodology for making the older material is well-documented and an expert who helped fabricate previous batches has offered to supervise production. So, if anyone out there has deep pockets and once a batch of the ideal material to perform bulk palladium cold fusion experiments, we can arrange it. I do not know any cold fusion research scientists or institutions who can afford $20,000 worth of material, but perhaps several people could get together and pool their resources. The above description of Type A is not comprehensive. We know little about the material. We cannot begin to explain why it resists distortion and allows high loading. The experts in Johnson Matthey probably know, but they are not talking. When Ed Storms read this description, he immediately thought of a number of important questions about fabrication techniques: "What is the crucible made of in which it is melted? Pick-up of crucible material can not be avoided. How is oxygen removed? Is calcium boride used, which is the usual method? What is the boron content?" Unfortunately, such details are trade secrets which Johnson Matthey will not reveal. Fleischman does not know the answers. Anyone who has a sample can quickly find out what elements are present in the alloy, in what proportions. But questions such as "How is the oxygen removed?" may not be as easy to ascertain. The trade secrets are not what is in the metal, but how it got there and why it stays. I asked Fleischman how confident he is that this material is effective, and how much batch-to-batch variability he observed. He said that since 1980 he has used samples from eight or nine batches. Only one batch failed to work, and was returned for credit. In general, any material from Johnson Matthey works better than palladium from other sources. The most dramatic proof of this can be seen in M. Miles, "Anomalous Effects in Deuterated Systems." See especially Table 10, p. 42, summarizing the effectiveness of palladium from various different sources. The success ratio with Johnson Matthey material was 17 out of 28 (17/28) compared to 2/5, 0/19, and 2/35 with other sources. Only the alloys fabricated in-house by the NRL worked better, with a 7/8 success ratio. Miles tested two samples of Type A palladium supplied to him by Fleischman and Pons. Both produced excess heat at much higher power density than samples from other suppliers (3 - 14 W/cm^3 compared to 0.3 - 2.1 W/cm^3). Fleischman reported success with pure palladium, as well as silver and cerium alloys. So did Miles, and he also had good results with boron alloys. The NRL in Washington reported no heat with samples from the same batches Miles tested, but their calorimeter was an order of magnitude less sensitive than his (with 200 mW precision compared to 20 mW), so even if their samples had produced the same level of heat Miles observed, they could not have detected it. In their Final Report, the NHE claimed that they used "the type of palladium recommended by Fleischman and Pons" in a series of experiments in the final stage of the project, after all else had failed. This is incorrect. They did not have any of the Type A palladium. Perhaps they used some other Johnson Matthey material instead. They have refused to reveal the batch number or say when or where they acquired the material, but as far as Fleischman knows, there was no Type A material available at that time. When the NHE program began, Fleischman supplied them with three Type A cathodes. Two of them produced excess heat, and one failed because of a prosaic problem with the equipment. The NHE disagrees with Fleischman's conclusion. Based on their nonstandard method of evaluating calorimetric data, they say all three samples failed to produce heat. They refuse to release detailed data which would allow others to analyze the results using standard methods. Fleischman, McKubre and Miles have criticized their methodology, in which a single calibration pulse made a few days after the experiment begins, when low-level excess heat is probably already present. (See the Fleischmann quote above, and M. Miles, "Report on Calorimetric Studies at the NHE Laboratory in Sapporo, Japan.") The question is: At this late date does anyone care about bulk palladium electrochemical cold fusion? Does anyone still want to try it? Even with the proper materials, this is still a very difficult experiment. Fleischman and McKubre agree that if techniques can be used, they should be. McKubre said, "the world is fascinated by electrochemistry, except electrochemists. If they can find another way of doing the job they will always choose the other way." Fleischman believes that the qualities of the palladium material are not be as important with electrodiffusion, which pushes deuterons through the bulk of material rather in through the surface. "Solid-state works better than interface chemistry." (Other people may not find the Italian electrodiffusion results as convincing as he does.) McKubre has successfully replicated the Case experiments using gas loading into commercial catalysts made of palladium on carbon. Researchers may feel that this kind of technique is more promising than bulk palladium, and there is no point to revisiting obsolete, 10-year-old experiments. We may no longer need Type A palladium. We can hardly afford it, anyway. I once asked Fleischman how he learned about Type A palladium. He said: "It is very simple. When we began this work I went to Johnson Matthey, I told them what I needed, and they recommended this material." As I said, he has a baroque imagination and he often goes about doing things in indirect, complex ways, but in this case he used the direct approach. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 08:19:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12281; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:18:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:18:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000120111744.0079faa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:17:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000120111246.0079c360 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"O4zJi1.0.l_2.0LpXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >So, if anyone out there has >deep pockets and once a batch of the ideal material to perform bulk >palladium cold fusion experiments, we can arrange it. That should be: WANTS a batch. $!#% voice input!!! The offer is serious. I'll kick in $5,000 for a batch, not that I personally have any use for the stuff. Many arrangements must be made and I have no idea how long it would take. Obviously we would require a lot more information before handing over the moola. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 08:27:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15845; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:25:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:25:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> References: <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:22:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"GYnXS2.0.Vt3.DSpXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > >At 02:36 PM 1/19/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>***{I just re-read this message, and noticed that when I typed in the above >>sentence, I was looking at your original numbers (5 mm x 10 mm), rather >>than at the current numbers (3.3 mm x 5.4 mm). Thus your present cathode >>area is 17.82 mm^2, whereas Mizuno's was 50 mm^2, so you are *not* close to >>his configuration. Thus I think you need to reduce the current consumed by >>your cell in some other way. Why not reduce the molarity of the >>electrolyte? That should work. --MJ}*** > >At Mizuno's suggestion, I have already tried 1/4 the usual concentration >(i.e. 0.05M) and it made no significant difference. This is not too >surprising since the cell impedance (about 200 ohms) is dominated by the >gas sheath around the cathode...not the conductivity of the electrolyte. ***{Good point. The fact that when you match the cathode configuration, the cooling curve, and the voltage setting, you pull a lot more current, suggests one of two possibilities: (1) that Mizuno is undermeasuring his current and, thus, his input power; or (2) that CF is occuring in his cathode and the increased heat is expanding the steam cloak, thereby increasing its resistance and reducing the current flow. The only way to choose between these interpretations is to find an error in Mizuno's power measurement, or else for you to obtain excess heat yourself. --MJ}*** > >>By the way: did you pick up anything on the short wave band? > >Not much! I was surprised by the lack of noise from this run. I need to >get both radios set up side-by-side for comparison. Maybe, as Briggs said, >my newer radio has an automatic gain control which made the weak noise >signal relatively loud. I doubt if the Hallicrafters has automatic >anything...it has only 6 tubes ("valves" if you're British) in it. > >BTW, I really don't expect to find any voltage-dependent peaks in the RF >signal amongst other bands of RF that don't show such peaks. This is a >simple experiment with very little in the way of potential resonant >structures that could create such complex behavior. To first order it is a >spark-gap transmitter and, as such, it's RF signal will be broadband and >everywhere consistently proportional. If you disagree, please provide some >hypothesis for the peak structure you suggested that I search for. ***{Resonance is an exaggeration of the vibration of a system that results when it is acted on by a cyclical force that has a period equal to the natural period of the undamped system. (Simple example: your child sits in a swing and you give the swing a push whenever it reaches the limit of its arc. Result: it swings in ever wider arcs.) Since there doesn't appear to be a cyclical force acting in your cell, I would think that resonance is probably not important there. Nevertheless, as I see it this system has a natural frequency that is, in part, voltage dependent. To see why, suppose that you are working with a cathode in the shape of a tiny sphere--call it a "point cathode"--and assume that the lead wire is covered with an insulating material such as teflon. As you ramp up the voltage at the beginning of the run, current will rise and the point cathode will heat up until the electrolyte in contact with its surface vaporizes and a steam cloak forms around it. At that point, since the steam cloak acts as an insulator, current flow will temporarily cease, and the point cathode will begin to cool. However, once the steam cloak has formed, it will be maintained by arcs. Since the steam in the cloak is of low density and, hence, very buoyant, it begins to rise toward the surface as soon as it is formed. Result: the liquid electrolyte presses in toward the point cathode and, as the steam cloak becomes thinner and thinner, its breakdown voltage falls toward the potential difference from cathode to electrolyte. When the breakdown voltage falls below the potential difference across the cloak, ionization of the steam occurs, forming a conductive pathway, and the result is an arc. The arc is like a tiny lightning bolt at that location, jumping from the cathode to the electrolyte wall. When it hits the wall, it produces a steam explosion, which widens the steam cloak at that point, thereby temporarily raising the breakdown voltage above the potential difference once again, and shutting down the arc at that location. But, of course, the steam quickly rises again, the liquid electrolyte presses in toward the cathode again, and the process is repeated, over and over and over. If we suppose that we raise the voltage above the minimal level necessary to maintain the steam cloak, the effect is to increase the thickness of the steam cloak, because the breakdown voltage will have to fall less in order to equal the potential difference. Thus the higher the voltage, the thicker the steam cloak. But as the thickness of the steam cloak increases, the surface area of the wall of liquid electrolyte increases, and the number of regions that must be pushed back by arcs increases. Hence the frequency of arcing at a point cathode is directly proportional to the applied voltage. If we suppose that we push the point cathode further beneath the surface, the effect is to raise the pressure and shrink the steam cloak, thereby reversing the above effect, and lowering the arc frequency. Thus arc frequency at a point cathode appears to be directly proportional to the applied voltage, and inversely proportional to the depth beneath the surface. And, since each arc produces an RF emission and a current spike, it also appears that the frequency of RF emissions and current spikes from a point cathode will be directly proportional to voltage and inversely proportional to the depth of the cathode beneath the surface. If we apply the above reasoning to an extended cathode--i.e., one that consists of large numbers of point cathodes distributed in some spatial array--we see that those points that are deeper beneath the surface will emit at frequencies that are porportional to the area of the cathode at that depth, inversely proportional to the depth, and directly proportional to the voltage. Thus things get complicated, but, overall, we see that the frequencies of arcs, RF emissions, and current spikes are directly proportional to the voltage and area of the cathode, and inversely proportional to its average depth beneath the surface--that is: f = kVA/d. How do we explain Mizuno's results? Simple: either, as he varies the voltage and hence the spike frequency of his cell, he settles in on a frequency that drops the spikes neatly into the nonsampling intervals of his power meters, or else he settles in on a frequency that triggers the putative CF reaction. If the former, then we merely have to assume that the meters he is using all have about the same sampling frequency. Given the prevailing tendency to herd behavior, I can easily imagine that most power meters, internally, are pretty much the same, and so I find this assumption to be highly plausible. On the other hand, if we assume that some specific arc frequency is necessary to trigger the CF reaction, then I haven't a clue as to why that should be the case. Thus it seems likely to me that Mizuno has tuned his cell to a frequency that causes significant numbers of current spikes to fall into the nonsampling intervals of his meters and that, as a consequence, he is undermeasuring his input current, hence power. As for the claimed replications, I would explain them the same way: they are likely using power meters with the same or similar sampling frequencies and intervals, and thus have fallen victim to the same sort of tuned-in artifact as Mizuno. Therefore, here is a suggestion: see if you can deliberately tune the spike frequency to your meter's sampling frequency. You are running at 162 volts, and you can go as high as 300, right? So start running with cathodes of larger area, closer to the surface, and at higher voltages, and see if you can produce a spike frequency that will fool your meter. If you do, I predict that it will look *exactly* as if your input power suddenly dropped off, allowing your cell to go "over unity!" --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 08:50:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24352; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:49:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:49:21 -0800 Message-ID: <026b01bf636e$8ffae480$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000120093151.007d9980 world.std.com> Subject: Re: 300Mizuno Run X, Scott vs Mizuno Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:48:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"sV3R61.0.Qy5.GopXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Swartz To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 6:31 AM Subject: Re: 300Mizuno Run X, Scott vs Mizuno Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > At 05:03 AM 1/20/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >The Volt-Ampere curve of an electrical discharge represents > the product of volts times amperes = > >Power and positive OU results. > > > >Thus if you do not have the the barometric pressure, hydrostatic > head,>electrode materials, size, and spacing, electrolyte chemistry, > atmospheric CO2 absorption, and>so on, pinned down, you could slave > away until the cows come home, without any fruitful results > >in replication. :-) > > > >Regards, Frederick > > > > No matter how difficult the replication, one > CAN do good science none-the-less, and contribute > to moving the field ahead. Certainly. The cows will follow the field (as you move it ahead)on their way home. :-) How much ahead for a good milk cow these days,anyhow? Dern, I just knew that when Frank Stenger posted..... Regards, Frederick > > Mitchell Swartz > > > =============================================== > > References, URLs, and some background on > cold fusion are available on the internet at > http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html and > http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/ > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 10:00:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17780; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:57:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:57:35 -0800 Message-ID: <381493598.948391049774.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:57:29 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: "Francis J. Stenger" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmobiles (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.149 Resent-Message-ID: <"q93z83.0.iL4.EoqXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, Windmobile sails were solid like an aircraft wing. The vehicle could not tack. It easily exceeded the old 55mph speed limit under wind power alone on freeways many time. The first one was built in Michigan and the concern we had was passing under bridges where the wind would stop. The State of Michigan gave permission to use any unopened freeway for tests before it went out in traffic. Turned out not to be a problem. ABC television used it as a filler on news programs for more than three years. We figured if we had owned that film we could have put the vehicle into production on the residuals (film royalties). When it first appeared it was the cover story for a few magazines in addition to Popular Science and photos appeared in numerous publications around the world. Mark ------Original Message------ From: "Francis J. Stenger" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: January 20, 2000 2:28:25 AM GMT Subject: Re: Windmobiles (fwd) hank wrote: > > Frank > Try this idea on for size though. (snip) > The windmobiles used a wing sail bent in the shape of an arch between the > two rear wheels. There was no conventional wind generator involved. (snip) Gee, Hank, I get all tingly thinking of you EV guys tacking back and forth across 8 lanes of busy freeway traffic trying to keep the jib from lufting (is that right?). This would have to insite "road rage" to the level of a mass uprising! :-) Frank Stenger ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 10:39:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01441; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:37:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:37:51 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Windmobiles (fwd) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:48:17 -0500 Message-ID: <20000120184817500.AAA255 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"eIHXl3.0.MM.-NrXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank writes: >Gee, Hank, I get all tingly thinking of you EV guys tacking back and >forth across 8 lanes of busy freeway traffic trying to keep the jib >from lufting (is that right?). Ahoy There! Just for your future information, it's "luffing". Landlubbers... Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 11:45:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23203; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:43:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:43:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000120144251.0079b470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:42:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Windmobiles (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000120184817500.AAA255 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XNb7i1.0.Tg5.NLsXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank writes: >Gee, Hank, I get all tingly thinking of you EV guys tacking back and >forth across 8 lanes of busy freeway traffic trying to keep the jib >from lufting (is that right?). ROFL. As they say in New England, Ey-ya, that'd be something to see. Here at the PDK Airport (Georgia's second busiest) we sometimes see light airplanes and helicopters landing or crashing on the surrounding highways and golf courses, and my friend's driveway in one case. I guess it happens a couple times a year. It is quite an experience for the people on I-85 to look up and see an airplane landing in their midst during rush hour. (Not really funny though -- someone usually ends up dead.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 12:42:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10803; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:39:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:39:40 -0800 Message-ID: <02a601bf638e$b75d15a0$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Bockris' Photolysis Cell ca 1984 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:37:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF634B.7E67EBA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"MLwC31.0.ee2.BAtXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 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13:00:14 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? In-Reply-To: <38866906.485A suite224.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"93sBV2.0.MI4.rTtXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I had a professor at Berkeley who had a homemade Ranque-Hilsh airconditioner on the side of his car, running into his rear window. He was an interesting duck, drove all over the Southwest every weekend. My electric is airconditioned, it has no top. Not good in the rain. A lot of people on the ev-list have a heater, airconditioner, or both. A small room airconditioner works in a car, needs either a dc motor, or an inverter. Some people take them apart, and reinstall the pieces. The motor in a small AC is about 1/2 horse, 400 Watts or so, and takes about 10% off of their range. Hank On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > Michael T Huffman wrote: > > > (snip) > > Another thing that I was puzzling over was > > air conditioning. If you converted a regular car or truck to electric, you > > would almost have to take out the air conditioner or else provide a separate > > motor just to drive the condensor. That would put a real drain on the > > batteries and add additional hardware. I was wondering if a lightweight > > Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube might be workable for some types of road > > conditions. Both of our ideas would require some minimal speed before they > > would be usable, but for some types of driving, they might the perfect > > electron saver. > > Indeed, Knuke, such systems would probably be used on a duty cycle > similar to a cruise control - limited to freeway cruise conditions. > Air conditioning seems like a natural for ram-air-powered devices - > it's when the air conditioning load is a maximum (at higher cruise > speeds) that such devices would be outputing usable power. > Fitting such devices to a given vehicle "mission profile" would be > a real challenge. Also, for an air turbine, it may require some form > of deployment to place it a foot or two in front of a vehicle to give > the rotor slipstream a semi-normal flow path. > > For now, I would be fascinated to know if even a crude, say 1 kilowatt, > unit would give a net gain at 60 mph. (I see from my old notes that > I have a number of 2.73 HP per square foot of ram air cross-section at > 70 mph.) > > Maybe Hank could educate up on how they get air conditioning in the new > EVs? > > Frank Stenger > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 13:26:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26142; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:25:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:25:02 -0800 Message-ID: <02c001bf6395$1543b920$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:23:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FWdTV3.0.GO6.jqtXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: hank scudder To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Wouldn't a horse and buggy do just as well, Hank? :-) Frederick > I had a professor at Berkeley who had a homemade Ranque-Hilsh > airconditioner on the side of his car, running into his rear window. He > was an interesting duck, drove all over the Southwest every weekend. My > electric is airconditioned, it has no top. Not good in the rain. A lot of > people on the ev-list have a heater, airconditioner, or both. A small room > airconditioner works in a car, needs either a dc motor, or an inverter. > Some people take them apart, and reinstall the pieces. The motor in a > small AC is about 1/2 horse, 400 Watts or so, and takes about 10% off of > their range. > > Hank > > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > > Michael T Huffman wrote: > > > > > (snip) > > > > Another thing that I was puzzling over was > > > air conditioning. If you converted a regular car or truck to electric, you > > > would almost have to take out the air conditioner or else provide a separate > > > motor just to drive the condensor. That would put a real drain on the > > > batteries and add additional hardware. I was wondering if a lightweight > > > Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube might be workable for some types of road > > > conditions. Both of our ideas would require some minimal speed before they > > > would be usable, but for some types of driving, they might the perfect > > > electron saver. > > > > Indeed, Knuke, such systems would probably be used on a duty cycle > > similar to a cruise control - limited to freeway cruise conditions. > > Air conditioning seems like a natural for ram-air-powered devices - > > it's when the air conditioning load is a maximum (at higher cruise > > speeds) that such devices would be outputing usable power. > > Fitting such devices to a given vehicle "mission profile" would be > > a real challenge. Also, for an air turbine, it may require some form > > of deployment to place it a foot or two in front of a vehicle to give > > the rotor slipstream a semi-normal flow path. > > > > For now, I would be fascinated to know if even a crude, say 1 kilowatt, > > unit would give a net gain at 60 mph. (I see from my old notes that > > I have a number of 2.73 HP per square foot of ram air cross-section at > > 70 mph.) > > > > Maybe Hank could educate up on how they get air conditioning in the new > > EVs? > > > > Frank Stenger > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 13:46:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02413; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:44:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:44:55 -0800 Message-ID: <38877C95.597A suite224.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:22:29 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmobiles (fwd) References: <20000120184817500.AAA255 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BeQYp.0.Yb.M7uXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: > > Ahoy There! > > Just for your future information, it's "luffing". Landlubbers... Thanks, Knuke - you can't expect too much from a lowly crew member (circa 1960)! :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 13:46:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02470; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:44:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:44:58 -0800 Message-ID: <38877FAC.1177 suite224.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:35:40 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hmnQp1.0.Tc.P7uXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hank scudder wrote: > A small room > airconditioner works in a car, needs either a dc motor, or an inverter. > Some people take them apart, and reinstall the pieces. The motor in a > small AC is about 1/2 horse, 400 Watts or so, and takes about 10% off of > their range. Hey, that's interesting input, Hank! Thanks. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 13:46:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02435; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:44:56 -0800 Message-ID: <38877E27.6B47 suite224.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:29:11 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmobiles (fwd) References: <3.0.6.32.20000120144251.0079b470 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"adfUi.0.ub.N7uXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > It is quite an experience for the people on I-85 to > look up and see an airplane landing in their midst during rush hour. > > (Not really funny though -- someone usually ends up dead.) Yes, back in the '60s we were having dinner in our house near the Cleveland airport when a twin-engine Piper crashed in a tenis court a couple of blocks away. It was fatal and it messes up the digestion! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 13:46:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02496; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:45:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:45:00 -0800 Message-ID: <388781DA.8D2 suite224.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:44:58 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? References: <02c001bf6395$1543b920$a6441d26@fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TczB6.0.oc.R7uXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Wouldn't a horse and buggy do just as well, Hank? :-) What are ya, Fred - some kind of a Luddite or something? Goldarned Southwesterner sitting there in his sunshine while I'm up to my belt buckle in lake effect snow off Lake Erie....%#$ &!@#@! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 14:05:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11655; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:04:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:04:50 -0800 Message-ID: <02d801bf639a$a6187f80$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <02c001bf6395$1543b920$a6441d26@fjsparber> <388781DA.8D2@suite224.net> Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:03:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"7axjE1.0.1s2.2QuXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Frank (The Crank) Stenger wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Wouldn't a horse and buggy do just as well, Hank? :-) > > What are ya, Fred - some kind of a Luddite or something? Goldarned > Southwesterner sitting there in his sunshine while I'm up to my > belt buckle in lake effect snow off Lake Erie....%#$ &!@#@! I figure instead of turning all of that corn into ethanol, it would be cheaper to acquire a steed, and use the byproducts for raing hotbet tomatos. As an engineer-turned-farmer (out standing in his field) you would appreciate that. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 14:09:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12822; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:07:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:07:49 -0800 Message-ID: <02ee01bf639b$11254880$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:06:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"O8hZ63.0.F83.rSuXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:03 PM Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Francis J. Stenger > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? > > Frank (The Crank) Stenger wrote: > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > Wouldn't a horse and buggy do just as well, Hank? :-) > > > > What are ya, Fred - some kind of a Luddite or something? Goldarned > > Southwesterner sitting there in his sunshine while I'm up to my > > belt buckle in lake effect snow off Lake Erie....%#$ &!@#@! > > I figure instead of turning all of that corn into ethanol, it would be cheaper > to acquire a steed, and use the byproducts for raing hotbet tomatos. > > As an engineer-turned-farmer (out standing in his field) you would appreciate that. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > Frank Stenger > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:22:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11510; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:20:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:20:46 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: From the Funny Pages Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:31:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20000121013108359.AAA248 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"kPKYb2.0.bp2.jHxXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, http://toons.net/cur.asp Get it quick! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:54:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22285; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:36 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:51:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4edf8ssiqt8ilkhdo33me79ktu0qjiviet 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000120111246.0079c360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000120111744.0079faa0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000120111744.0079faa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA22177 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hnh-l1.0.zR5.ckxXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:17:44 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >The offer is serious. I'll kick in $5,000 for a batch, not that I >personally have any use for the stuff. Many arrangements must be made and I >have no idea how long it would take. Obviously we would require a lot more >information before handing over the moola. [snip] Perhaps JM would be prepared to buy back the cathodes when the experiments were done, and most of the original investment could be refunded? That way the money would be more along the lines of a loan, rather than a donation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 18:18:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30946; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:16:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:16:31 -0800 Message-ID: <031701bf63bd$c53ad840$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: The 1999 Darwin Awards Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:11:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"i1ZFe2.0.SZ7.-5yXu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >...And you thing you've done some dumb things!!! Not for the > weak-stomached!! > > > > >The 1999 Darwin Awards. > > >For those sheltered few of you who are not fully aware of the Darwin > > Awards; > > >these awards are given annually (and posthumously) to those individuals > who > > >did the most for the human gene pool by removing themselves from it. > > > > > >GRAVITY KILLS > > >A 22-year-old Reston, Va., man was found dead after he tried to > use.'occy' > > >straps (the stretchy little ropes with hooks on each end) to bungee jump > > off > > >a 70-foot railroad trestle, police said. Fairfax County, Va., police said > > >Eric A. Barcia, a fast-food worker, taped a bunch of these straps > together, > > >wrapped an end around one foot, anchored the other end to the trestle at > > >Lake Accotink Park, jumped... and hit the pavement. Warren Carmichael, a > > >police spokesman, said investigators think Barcia was alone because his > car > > >was found nearby. "The length of the cord that he had assembled was > greater > > >than the distance between the trestle and the ground," Carmichael said. > > >Police say the apparent cause of death was "major trauma." An autopsy was > > >scheduled for later in the week. > > > > > >LAUNCHED ON THE FOURTH OF JULY > > >Three young men in Oklahoma were enjoying the upcoming Fourth of July > > >holiday and apparently wanted to test fire some fireworks. Their only > real > > >problem was that their launch pad and seating arrangements were atop a > > >several-hundred-thousand-gallon fuel distillation storage tank. Oddly > > >enough, some fumes were ignited, producing a fireball seen for miles. > They > > >were launched several hundred feet into the air and were found dead 250 > > >yards from their respective seats. > > > > > >DON'T ASK GOD TO PROVE HIMSELF, HE JUST MIGHT > > >A lawyer and two buddies were fishing on Caddo Lake in Texas when a > > >lightning storm hit the lake. Most of the other boats immediately headed > > for > > >the shore, but not our friend the lawyer. Alone on the rear of his > aluminum > > >bass boat with his buddies, this individual stood up, spread his arms > wide > > >(crucifixion style) and shouted: "HERE I AM LORD, LET ME HAVE IT!" > Needless > > >to say, God delivered. The other two passengers on the boat survived the > > >lightning strike with minor burns. > > > > > >CATCH! > > >A man in Alabama died from rattlesnake bites. "Big deal" you may say, but > > >there's a twist here that makes him a candidate. It seems he and a friend > > >were playing catch with a rattlesnake. You can guess what happened from > > >here. The friend (a future Darwin Awards candidate).was hospitalized. > > > > > >GIMME A LIGHT! > > >In a west Texas town, employees in a medium-sized warehouse noticed the > > >smell of gas. Sensibly, management evacuated the building, extinguishing > > all > > >potential sources of ignition-lights, power, etc. After the building had > > >been evacuated, two technicians from the gas.company were dispatched. > Upon > > >entering the building, they found they had difficulty navigating in the > > >dark. To their frustration, none of the lights worked. Witnesses later > > >described the vision of one of the technicians reaching into his pocket > and > > >retrieving an object that resembled a lighter. Upon operation of the > > >lighter-like object, the gas in the warehouse exploded,sending pieces of > it > > >up to three miles away. Nothing was found of the technicians, but the > > >lighter was virtually untouched by the explosion. The technician that was > > >suspected of causing the explosion had never been thought of as "bright" > by > > >his peers. > > > > > >THEY SAY THOSE THINGS WILL KILL YOU > > >Not much was given to me on this unlucky fellow, but he qualifies > > >nonetheless. You see, there was a gentleman from South Korea who was > killed > > >by his cell phone... more or less. He was doing the usual walking and > > >talking when he walked into a tree and managed to somehow break his neck. > > >Keep that in mind the next time you decide to drive and dial at the same > > >time. > > > > > >AND THE 1999 DARWIN AWARD WINNER IS...THOMPSON, MANITOBA, CANADA > > >Telephone relay company night watchman Edward Baker, 31, was killed early > > >Christmas morning by excessive microwave radiation exposure. He was > > >apparently attempting to keep warm next to a telecommunications feed. > Baker > > >had been suspended on a safety violation once last year, according to > > >Northern Manitoba Signal Relay spokesperson Tanya Cooke. She noted that > > >Baker's earlier infraction was for defeating a safety shutoff switch and > > >entering a restricted maintenance catwalk in order to stand in front of > the > > >microwave dish. He had told coworkers that it was the only way he could > > stay > > >warm during his twelve-hour shift at the station, where winter > temperatures > > >often dip to forty below zero Fahrenheit (which also is forty below zero > > >Celsius). Microwaves can heat water molecules within human tissue in the > > >same way that they heat food in microwave ovens. For his Christmas shift, > > >Baker reportedly brought a twelve pack of beer and a plastic lawn chair, > > >which he positioned directly in line with the strongest microwave beam. > > >Baker had not been told about a tenfold boost in microwave power planned > > >that night to handle the anticipated increase in holiday long-distance > > >calling traffic. Baker's body was discovered by the daytime watchman, > John > > >Burns, who was greeted by an odor he mistook for a Christmas roast he > > >thought Baker must have prepared as a surprise. Burns also reported to > NMSR > > >company officials that Baker's unfinished beers had exploded. > > > > > >HONORABLE MENTION (He did not succeed in dying, but made a strong effort) > > >A Vermont native, Ronald Demuth, found himself in a difficult position > > >yesterday. While touring the Eagle's Rock African Safari (a zoo) with a > > >group of thespians from St. Petersburg, Russia, Mr. Demuth went overboard > > to > > >show them one of America's many marvels. He demonstrated the > effectiveness > > >of Crazy Glue... the hard way. Apparently, Mr. Demuth wanted to > demonstrate > > >just how good the adhesive was, so he put about 3 ounces of the adhesive > in > > >the palms of his hands, and jokingly placed them on the buttocks of a > > >passing rhino. The rhino, a resident of the zoo for the thirteen years, > was > > >not startled initially, as it has been part of the petting exhibit since > > its > > >arrival as a baby. However, once it became aware of its being > involuntarily > > >stuck to Mr. Demuth, it began to panic and ran around the petting area > > >wildly making Mr. Demuth an unintended passenger. "Sally [the rhino] > hasn't > > >been feeling well lately. She had been very constipated. We had just > given > > >her a laxative and some depressants to relax her bowels, when Mr.Demuth > > >played his juvenile prank," said James Douglass, caretaker. During > Sally's > > >tirade two fences were destroyed, a shed wall was gored, and a number of > > >small animals escaped. Also, during the stampede, three pygmy goats and > > >oneduck were stomped to death. As for Demuth, it took a team of medics > and > > >zoo caretakers to remove his hands from her buttocks. First, the animal > had > > >to be captured and calmed down. However, during this process the > laxatives > > >began to take hold and Mr. Demuth was repeatedly showered with over 30 > > >gallons of rhino diarrhea. "It was tricky. We had to calm her down, while > > at > > >the same time shield.our faces from being pelted with rhino dung. I guess > > >you could say that Mr. Demuth was into it up to his neck. Once she was > > under > > >control, we had three people with shovels working to keep an air passage > > >open for Mr. Demuth. We were able to tranquilize her and apply a solvent > to > > >remove his hands from her rear," said Douglass. I don't think he'll be > > >playing with Crazy Glue for a while." Meanwhile, the Russians, while > > >obviously amused, also were impressed with the power of the adhesive. > "I'm > > >going to buy some for my children, but of course they can't take it to > the > > >zoo," commented Vladimir Zolnikov, leader of the troupe. > > > > > >ADDENDUM -- (Not herself a Darwin Award candidate, but of note in our > list > > >of stupid and morbid events) > > > > > >CLEANER POLISHES OFF PATIENTS > > >"For several months, our nurses have been baffled to find a patient dead > in > > >the same bed every Friday morning" a spokeswoman for the Pelonomi > Hospital > > >(Free State, South Africa) told reporters. "There was no apparent cause > for > > >any of the deaths, and extensive checks on the air conditioning system, > and > > >a search for possible bacterial infection, failed to reveal any clues." > > >"However, further inquiries have now revealed the cause of these > deaths... > > >It seems that every Friday morning a cleaning lady would enter the ward, > > >remove the plug that powered the patient's life support system, plug her > > >floor polisher into the vacant socket, then go about her business." "When > > >she had finished her chores, she would plug the life support machine back > > in > > >and leave, unaware that the patient was now dead. She could not, after > all, > > >hear the screams and eventual death rattle over the whirring of her > > >polisher..." "We are sorry, and have sent a strong letter to the cleaner > in > > >question. Further, the Free State Health and Welfare Department is > > arranging > > >for an electrician to fit an extra socket so there should be no > repetition > > >of this incident. The inquiry is now closed." (Interview taken from the > > Cape > > >Times newspaper). > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 20:41:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13598; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:39:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:39:52 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <6a.2ddb2c.25b93d0e aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:39:42 EST Subject: Re: Antigrav-101 ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"XDvCf2.0.HK3.MC-Xu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 01/08/2000 12:16:06 AM, Colin Quinney wrote: << What? You mean that stars don't have cold cores? What about Jupiter's excess heat output then? How do you explain that?>> Jupiter is a giant gas ball, mostly hydrogen, and Mills suspects that hydrino production may be going on there, with concommitant heat release. <> I'm afraid so, as a general rule. But Mills does make one exception. His pseudoelectrons could be said to feel gravity as a push. Of course, that just helps mainstream physicists brand him a crackpot. <> Mills doesn't think that gravitons exist either. << I have not read Mill's theory yet, either BTW.>> It seems to me that Mills' theory is a must-read for anyone interested in antigravity. Last I looked, his 1999 book was available either direct from BLP for $80 + $12 shipping and handling, or within 24 hours from Amazon.com for $100, or as a special order (three to five weeks) from Barnes & Noble for $75. <> Because antigravity is an old dream of his and NASA could make it happen. Besides, he's already given the crucial ideas in his book, available to anyone. And during the effort to actually build a device, Mills might pick up some improvement patents. <> According to Baard's story in THE VILLAGE VOICE, some of BLP's directors WERE nervous about the possibility that the government might put some of BLP's work behind a veil of security classification. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 21:31:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08356; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:30:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:30:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:15:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"y8AKL1.0.R22.Qx-Xu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:22 AM 1/20/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >...But, of course, the steam quickly rises >again, the liquid electrolyte presses in toward the cathode again, and the >process is repeated, over and over and over. I can see evidence of that process happening in the current trace. The frequency (it's not very regular) is in the low audio range (~200 Hz) and is actually audible as a "rumbling" from the cell. The RF signal is presumably generated by the fast rise time of these current spikes and therefore consists of a series of broadband "pops" that make a "static" sound on the radio. >Therefore, here is a suggestion: see if you can deliberately tune the spike >frequency to your meter's sampling frequency. I can't seem to fool either the Fluke 87 or the Clarke-Hess. I've used them throughout my experimentation over a wide range of voltages and cell conditions and observed good agreement with my calorimetry. However, I will endeavor to try a number of meters, mostly cheaper ones, to see if I can find a meter that is fooled by this type of signal. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 21:33:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08330; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:30:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:30:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000120232300.0070e9c4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:23:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000120111246.0079c360 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Txcrh.0.222.Nx-Xu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:12 AM 1/20/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >called "Type A" palladium. It was developed decades ago for use in hydrogen >diffusion tubes: filters that allow hydrogen to pass while holding back >other gasses. This alloy was designed to have great structural integrity >under high loading. It lasts for years, withstanding cracking and >deformation that would quickly destroy other alloys and allow other gasses >to seep through the filters. This robustness happens to be the quality we >need for cold fusion. An alloy commonly used in commercial hydrogen purifiers is about 75%Pd/25%Ag and was developed decades ago to prevent the cracking that inevitably occurred with pure Pd. This information was supplied to me by Robert Buxbaum, President of REB Research (www.rebresearch.com) who make hydrogen purifiers. Robert buys this alloy all the time from somebody (maybe Englehard) in the form of tubing. Could this be what J&M call Type A palladium!? Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 07:54:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29326; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:51:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:51:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:48:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"q2-Nk3.0.8A7.E28Yu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:22 AM 1/20/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>...But, of course, the steam quickly rises >>again, the liquid electrolyte presses in toward the cathode again, and the >>process is repeated, over and over and over. > >I can see evidence of that process happening in the current trace. The >frequency (it's not very regular) is in the low audio range (~200 Hz) and >is actually audible as a "rumbling" from the cell. ***{Now *that* is useful information! If you go back to a cathode that is 50 mm^2, like Mizuno's, that should put the frequency to about (50/18)(200) = 556 cps. As I recall, a state of the art meter of recent vintage samples at about 15,000 cps, which is about 27 times faster, and should not be fooled by such a signal. Assuming that my rough formula for computing the cell frequency is correct, boosting your voltage isn't going to get you to 15,000 cps. For example, a boost to 300 volts would give a frequency of (300/162)(556) = 1030 cps--nowhere near good enough. Therefore, the only shot I see at fooling your meter would be to run with the cathode just beneath the surface of the water. If, for example, you were 10 cm below the surface when the frequency was 200 cps, then .37 cm should give you 15000 cps. With such a configuration, of course, the electrolyte level would drop pretty quickly below your cathode, but it might be worth a shot. If you had to, you could set up a siphon connected to a larger external container of electrolyte, preheated to near boiling with an immersion heater. As electrolyte boiled away in the cell, the siphon would pull in more from the external reservoir, maintaining the level. --MJ}*** The RF signal is >presumably generated by the fast rise time of these current spikes and >therefore consists of a series of broadband "pops" that make a "static" >sound on the radio. > >>Therefore, here is a suggestion: see if you can deliberately tune the spike >>frequency to your meter's sampling frequency. > >I can't seem to fool either the Fluke 87 or the Clarke-Hess. I've used >them throughout my experimentation over a wide range of voltages and cell >conditions and observed good agreement with my calorimetry. However, I >will endeavor to try a number of meters, mostly cheaper ones, to see if I >can find a meter that is fooled by this type of signal. ***{If you can obtain a meter like Mizuno is using, that would be ideal. --MJ}*** > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 07:57:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31714; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:55:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:55:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121105509.0079d320 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:55:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000120232300.0070e9c4 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000120111246.0079c360 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cDR07.0.Sl7.y58Yu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >An alloy commonly used in commercial hydrogen purifiers is about >75%Pd/25%Ag and was developed decades ago to prevent the cracking that >inevitably occurred with pure Pd. . . . >Could this be what J&M call Type A palladium!? I don't know. Mike McKubre says that "Type A" is pure Pd: "It is not an alloy and has (to my knowledge) no Ag addition. The tricks are in the melting and subsequent metallurgical treatments." I posted everything I know about "Type A." Martin said he would gather some information and fax me more, but he has not done it yet. We are talking to some other people at J.M. about the newer material which is melted under argon. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 08:05:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04895; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:04:44 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:32:59 -0500 Message-ID: <20000121153259640.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"_MeBf2.0.OC1.RE8Yu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank writes: >I had a professor at Berkeley who had a homemade Ranque-Hilsh >airconditioner on the side of his car, running into his rear window. He >was an interesting duck, drove all over the Southwest every weekend. My >electric is airconditioned, it has no top. Not good in the rain. A lot of >people on the ev-list have a heater, airconditioner, or both. A small room >airconditioner works in a car, needs either a dc motor, or an inverter. >Some people take them apart, and reinstall the pieces. The motor in a >small AC is about 1/2 horse, 400 Watts or so, and takes about 10% off of >their range. > >Hank I was guessing that the AC might take around 1/3hp, so I wasn't too far off. On conversion vehicles, especially ones that aren't designed very well aerodynamically, you have a great deal of blunt "face" area, much of which could be used as an intake for a ram air device like a vortex tube or a turbine. On some vehicles that area could equal as much as 8 sq.ft. Ductwork is light in weight, a plastic vortex tube would be lightweight, and even a turbine could be lightweight if made of the proper materials. The only heavy thing would be a normal DC generator, and if you went with a HV static generator instead, that could possibly be lighter in weight and useful in other ways. I think it is worth some more headscratching at the very least. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 09:39:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07576; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:36:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:36:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121123629.0079d2b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:36:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: EV World: GM EV1 not cancelled Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CsI0z2.0.Is1.ta9Yu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: EV World on-line magazine says GM does *not* plan to cancel production of its EV1 electric car. GM says the Jan. 1 AP story was incorrect. See: http://www.evworld.com/main.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 11:25:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11340; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:23:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:23:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:23:21 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000120232300.0070e9c4 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JALAy1.0.6n2.z8BYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just to second Scott, the 75% Pd, 25%Ag alloy has much more stable mechanical properties then pure Pd. After several charging - discharging cycles with Hydrogen, pure Pd warps very badly in all of its dimensions. Makes it useless as a Hydrogen leak or purifier. Hank On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Scott Little wrote: > At 11:12 AM 1/20/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > >called "Type A" palladium. It was developed decades ago for use in hydrogen > >diffusion tubes: filters that allow hydrogen to pass while holding back > >other gasses. This alloy was designed to have great structural integrity > >under high loading. It lasts for years, withstanding cracking and > >deformation that would quickly destroy other alloys and allow other gasses > >to seep through the filters. This robustness happens to be the quality we > >need for cold fusion. > > An alloy commonly used in commercial hydrogen purifiers is about > 75%Pd/25%Ag and was developed decades ago to prevent the cracking that > inevitably occurred with pure Pd. This information was supplied to me by > Robert Buxbaum, President of REB Research (www.rebresearch.com) who make > hydrogen purifiers. Robert buys this alloy all the time from somebody > (maybe Englehard) in the form of tubing. > > Could this be what J&M call Type A palladium!? > > > > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 11:30:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13008; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:27:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:27:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121142716.0079e630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:27:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Hybrid cars selling briskly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"naQI23.0.6B3.kCBYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It looks like there is a healthy demand for hybrid automobiles: March, 1998 -- Sales of the Prius in Japan have been so brisk since the cars introduction in December, 1997, that Toyota has asked its dealerships to temporarily stop taking orders. The company can't build the cars fast enough to meet demand. Toyota originally planned to build 1000 cars a month, but it ramping up production to 2,000 a month by mid-summer. - EV World on-line magazine, "Driving Prius -- A Brush With The Future" - JR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 11:35:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15797; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:34:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:34:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121143331.007a3160 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:33:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? In-Reply-To: <20000121153259640.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8Yz072.0.Zs3.eIBYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >I was guessing that the AC might take around 1/3hp, so I wasn't too far off. The Toyota Prius hybrid has a specially designed "two layered" efficient AC system. It is driven by the power plant, like a conventional auto AC. A hybrid will always have rotary power to spare -- something is always spinning -- unlike a pure electric-EV, in which the motor stops rotating when the car halts. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 11:58:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25156; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:57:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:57:26 -0800 Message-Id: <4.1.20000121115055.00abab40 pop3.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:51:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ross Tessien Subject: When is Italy CF conference? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000121143331.007a3160 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20000121153259640.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lFTWG.0.-86.ceBYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I forgot where the web page is for the Italy CF conference. Anyone have the page and or the dates of the conference? thanks, rt From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 12:26:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02514; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:24:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:24:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:19:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Russ George Cell Resent-Message-ID: <"OcvLG1.0.Cd.s1CYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Steve Lajoie just posted on sci.physics.fusion that the Russ George experiment has now been repeated 30 times, and that in each case excess helium appeared in the experimental cell and not in the control cell. Since the chance probability of a leak or contamination appearing in the experimental cell on a given trial, at most, is 1/2, the probability of that happening due to chance would be no more than (1/2)^30 = 9.3x10^-10, or 9.3 chances in 10 billion. If Steve's statement is true, therefore, the Russ George cell becomes smoking gun proof of the reality of cold fusion! If that is the case, then the credibility of all of CF reports, including those from Mizuno, are greatly enhanced. Unfortunately, Steve's post did not indicate where he obtained his information, and I see nothing specific about this *very important* point on Russ George's Saturna Technologies home page. All he says on the subject is "This work has now been successfully reproduced many times at SRI International, as reported in meetings of the American Chemical Society in Oct. 99 in Ontario, California, and the Italian Physical Society meeting in Oct. 99 in Asti, Italy." Needless to say, the above claim by Russ George is much less significant than the claim being made by Steve Lajoie. Does anyone out there have any additional information on this topic? --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 12:29:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25152; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:26:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:26:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3888C145.EF609E5E ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:27:52 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: When is Italy CF conference? References: <20000121153259640.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <4.1.20000121115055.00abab40@pop3.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dmh-J3.0.X86.o3CYu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Check: www.frascati.enea.it/iccf8 Ed Ross Tessien wrote: > I forgot where the web page is for the Italy CF conference. Anyone have > the page and or the dates of the conference? > > thanks, rt From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 12:29:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04881; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:28:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:28:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121152731.007c8630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:27:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: When is Italy CF conference? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000121115055.00abab40 pop3.oro.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000121143331.007a3160 pop.mindspring.com> <20000121153259640.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NAkTD.0.AC1.G5CYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: >I forgot where the web page is for the Italy CF conference. www.frascati.enea.it/iccf8/ . . . but it isn't working today. - JR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 12:59:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16794; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:57:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:57:45 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:08:10 -0500 Message-ID: <20000121210810750.AAA229 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"fHifj1.0.K64.8XCYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >The Toyota Prius hybrid has a specially designed "two layered" efficient AC >system. It is driven by the power plant, like a conventional auto AC. A >hybrid will always have rotary power to spare -- something is always >spinning -- unlike a pure electric-EV, in which the motor stops rotating >when the car halts. > >- Jed That is always a tough engineering call to make. I have a 1/3 hp DC motor here that weighs in around 10 pounds, and ideally, if it was a separate unit from whatever power plant, the motor would cycle on and off only when the AC compressor was in use. There are much lighter and efficient DC motors available for of course, a much higher price, but I imagine the Toyota folks found it cheaper, and perhaps even lighter to drive the compressor with the main plants. I'd like to see how they did it. I don't think anyone could beat the vortex tube, however, for lightness and cost-effectiveness. I wish that were used in more applications. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 13:22:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26902; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:20:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:20:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121162008.007cc470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:20:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: When is Italy CF conference? In-Reply-To: <3888C145.EF609E5E ix.netcom.com> References: <20000121153259640.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <4.1.20000121115055.00abab40 pop3.oro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XItEj1.0.Da6.bsCYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have recieved a HUGE amount of material about the NHE from various sources. I just got a 15 page confidential report from Melvin Miles, and Martin F. sent me 12 pages (which I forwarded to you, I think). Plus McKubre and Mizuno have a lot to say about it, and I am expecting comments from the project director, Asami. My head is spinning from all this stuff. I have never had so much detailed, topical, original source information to work with. To be honest, I have not begun to whittle it all down, and I am not sure how long to make it. Perhaps this should be two articles, crossing two issues? For now, I will concentrate on an introduction to the Miles paper, putting it in the NHE context. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 13:39:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31990; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:38:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:38:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121163735.007a13f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:37:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: When is Italy CF . . . . OOOPS! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000121162008.007cc470 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3888C145.EF609E5E ix.netcom.com> <20000121153259640.AAA280 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <4.1.20000121115055.00abab40 pop3.oro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Xi62w.0.fp7.v6DYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >I have recieved a HUGE amount of material about the NHE from various >sources. I just got a 15 page confidential report from Melvin Miles, and >Martin F. sent me 12 pages (which I forwarded to you, I think). OOOPS!!! Oops! MISDIRECTED e-mail. I did not mean to send that message to Vortex. Sorry folks. The report from Miles is not *that* confidential, just kind of informal, shall we say. He has some unfriendly things to say about people like Elliot Kennel and some of the NHE management. We will summarize it all in the upcoming issue of I.E. I have part of the official final NHE report, which I am translating. We will publish the conclusions from the Final Report alongside Miles' summary of the same experiments. They reach diametrically opposite conclusions. It should be an interesting issue. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 13:44:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02643; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:42:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:42:08 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:41:33 -1000 Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0-sXK1.0.Cf.iADYu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm a little confused about something - does J&M completely refuse to make type A at *any* cost, or was the $20K number for a type A ingot which would be supplied now at that price? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 13:53:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04876; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:52:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:52:54 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:52:44 -1000 Subject: OT: Plug Power fuel cells (stock price) From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jOPBf1.0.2C1.rKDYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts - I posted here about Plug Power on 12/1/99 and the price was under $26.00. Now it's over $107. (Avoid my stock picks generally though, they tend to tank, especially if I put real money in them. Can you tell I don't actually own any PLUG? I know for a fact that other, wiser, vorts do own it and have done well.) Hybrid cars are selling well, according to posts here. Apparently people do like alternate energy products, even if they're not the off-the-grid-for-cheap cold fusion home energy units or whatever. There's Big Money to be made. That's a good thing, because it will drive research in the field towards the development of viable products. I like the prospects, I just wish CF people wouild stop screwing around, get funded and get going. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 14:34:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18471; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:33:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:33:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121173307.007a1d30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:33:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Tn7T32.0.XW4._wDYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >I'm a little confused about something - does J&M completely refuse to make >type A at *any* cost, or was the $20K number for a type A ingot which would >be supplied now at that price? They do not refuse. The product is obsolete -- they no longer make it. They have offered to crank up the production line for us and make one "ingot" according to the old formula. They told Martin Fleischmann they would do that if he can come up with the $20,000. He told me, and I am looking around for people who can use it. We can form a purchasers consortium. J.M. does not care how many people participate, as long as they get a check for 20 grand. I do not know if anyone is still interested in bulk-Pd CF studies. The new formula might work just as well. Martin said he simply does not know; he never had a chance to test it. "A chance" would mean many trials and years of study. It takes him that long to reach a conclusion. He is very wary of changing materials or conditions, as are all electrochemists I know. I do not know how much an "ingot" is, but anyway, it would not be an actual ingot lump, but a mix of rods, foils (plates), wires and whatnot, according to our specifications. That is another issue we would have to work out. Processing it into different shapes might cost extra. F&P always used rods. It is possible that the machines used to make foils might screw up the works and wreck the material. Unlikely but possible. Martin is very concerned about the dies used to make wires and rods. This is not the exact, final price. Apparently the price changes from day to day. It is kind of like ordering lobster at a resturant. The price of Pd has gone up sharply recently because of increased demand in automobile catalysis and instability in Russia, according to Martin. I know nothing about precious metal pricing or "ingots," but I am told $20,000 would be quite reasonable. You can return used or unused metal to be remelted, but you do not get as much back as you paid. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 14:53:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25456; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:52:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:52:42 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:52:33 -1000 Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000121173307.007a1d30 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D1Yiu3.0.gD6.vCEYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - Thanks for the info. That's kind of what I thought, but wasn't sure that it was actually only $20,000 or so that seems to be blocking further decent multiple Fleischmann cell reproductions, assuming other things in place - labs redy to run tests, calorimeters, etc. That and bad brains keeps it from happening, I suppose. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI on 1/21/00 12:33 PM, Jed Rothwell at JedRothwell infinite-energy.com wrote: > Rick Monteverde wrote: > >> I'm a little confused about something - does J&M completely refuse to make >> type A at *any* cost, or was the $20K number for a type A ingot which would >> be supplied now at that price? > > They do not refuse. The product is obsolete -- they no longer make it. They > have offered to crank up the production line for us and make one "ingot" > according to the old formula. They told Martin Fleischmann they would do > that if he can come up with the $20,000. He told me, and I am looking > around for people who can use it. We can form a purchasers consortium. J.M. > does not care how many people participate, as long as they get a check for > 20 grand. I do not know if anyone is still interested in bulk-Pd CF studies. > > The new formula might work just as well. Martin said he simply does not > know; he never had a chance to test it. "A chance" would mean many trials > and years of study. It takes him that long to reach a conclusion. He is > very wary of changing materials or conditions, as are all electrochemists I > know. > > I do not know how much an "ingot" is, but anyway, it would not be an actual > ingot lump, but a mix of rods, foils (plates), wires and whatnot, according > to our specifications. That is another issue we would have to work out. > Processing it into different shapes might cost extra. F&P always used rods. > It is possible that the machines used to make foils might screw up the > works and wreck the material. Unlikely but possible. Martin is very > concerned about the dies used to make wires and rods. > > This is not the exact, final price. Apparently the price changes from day > to day. It is kind of like ordering lobster at a resturant. The price of Pd > has gone up sharply recently because of increased demand in automobile > catalysis and instability in Russia, according to Martin. I know nothing > about precious metal pricing or "ingots," but I am told $20,000 would be > quite reasonable. You can return used or unused metal to be remelted, but > you do not get as much back as you paid. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 15:10:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA30881; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:08:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:08:58 -0800 From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <3888E736.199ABE06 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:09:42 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 21, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4pSbt2.0.RY7.ASEYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's New wrote: > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 21 Jan 00 Washington, DC > > FLASH!! PRESIDENT CLINTON ANNOUNCES MAJOR SCIENCE INITIATIVE. > Even as this reaches you, the President is at Cal Tech outlining > his plans for science. His message should warm the hearts of all > scientists: "Science and technology have become the engine of > economic growth," and is "allowing us to live longer, happier > lives." Citing the interdependence of science, he wants major > increases in all areas. The budget he will submit to Congress > includes a $2.8B increase in the 21st Century Research Fund. But > perhaps the most important part of his speech was to acknowledge > that: "We have not done a good job of helping American to > understand why the enormous investments we are making in science > are so important...It is our responsibility to help open the world > of science to our citizens, to help them understand the great > questions that science is seeking to answer, to help them see how > those answers will directly affect their lives." > > 1. ROBERT R. WILSON: PHYSICS AND BEAUTY WERE INSEPARABLE. He is > dead at 85. Architect, sculptor, scientist, his character is to > be found in the inspiring environment he created at Fermilab. > During 1969 hearings, Senator Pastore asked him to explain how the > research would be important to national defense. "It has nothing > to do with defending our country," Wilson replied, "except to make > it worth defending." In 1985, as APS President, he led the > Society in resisting government efforts to restrain the unfettered > exchange of unclassified scientific information. In an editorial > in Physics Today, he described as "pernicious" the concern that > resisting government pressure could jeopardize funding: "there is > a collective responsibility to be supportive of individuals who > stand firm and censorious when they do not." > > 2. STAR WARS: WELL, IT'S TIME FOR A LITTLE SPIN CONTROL. This > week's test was the one that proponents declared in advance was > critical to President Clinton's deployment decision. It missed. > But it was working perfectly, a spokesperson said--until the last > 6 seconds. Uh, that's about when the IR sensors turn on. At a > closing speed of perhaps 10km/sec, that's a long time. The next > test is scheduled for late spring, but I wouldn't count on it. > > 3. ARGONNE: RICHARDSON WANTS A WOMAN OR MINORITY TO HEAD LAB. > Argonne National Laboratory has been without a permanent director > since the resignation of Dean Eastman in 1998 (WN 15 May 1998). > According to Science and Government Report, Secretary Richardson > has rejected white male candidates proposed by the University of > Chicago, which operates ANL, and made it clear that he expects to > see a woman in the job. One prominent female physicist has > already turned the job down. The University's 5-year contract has > been extended 90 days to find a suitable candidate. WN is sure > that supermodel Christie Brinkley isn't on the short list - > despite her interest in DOE lab operations (WN 19 Nov 99). > > THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and > are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 15:14:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32237; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:11:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:11:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000121181105.0079b250 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:11:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000121173307.007a1d30 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NaKGQ.0.ct7.fUEYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Thanks for the info. That's kind of what I thought, but wasn't sure that it >was actually only $20,000 or so that seems to be blocking further decent >multiple Fleischmann cell reproductions, assuming other things in place . . . Yes, that is the sad part. And difficult to believe. But Fleischmann does believe that is the main reason others were never able to reproduce excess heat with bulk-Pd electrochem. He has been trying to round up the money for two years, with no luck so far. Mind you, he doesn't work on this every day, but he talked about it when we met a couple of years ago, and when I brought it up again recently he said he has made no progress, but the offer from J.M. is still open. He has not been pursuing this vigorously partly because he feels that the quality of the Pd material is not as important as it once was. He thinks the newer techniques work with any grade of Pd. He finds the electromigration experiments in Italy are particularly promising. I cannot judge these experiments yet -- I am studying them some more. The calorimetry looks dicy. It is a funny thing. People accuse Martin of keeping secrets and not revealing his techniques, and not helping replications, and bla, bla, bla. >From where I stand that's a bunch of balony! Okay, maybe he is wrong about this or that. Maybe, despite his claims, positive feedback (self-heating) is not critical. But you can't accuse him of hiding that technique! He talks about it at every opportunity. He has been saying very clearly and explicitly what *he thinks* this is needed and this is how he does it, and he has been talking about this material for years. At ICCF-4, I think it was, he said, "You look at the studies -- the results from Miles and others. I was handing out cathodes and urging people to try them. When they used the cathodes from Uncle Martin -- it worked! The cathodes from other people -- it failed!" I looked at the studies and by golly, he was right. Ever since then I have been trying to persuade people to follow his advice, but heck, if people will not listen to *him* they sure won't listen to me! After a while he ran out of cathodes to hand out, and that's where we stand now. Or sit. As in: dead in the water. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 15:14:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32180; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:11:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:11:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:11:16 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c@mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA32108 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZpOVY1.0.gs7.XUEYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:48:52 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >fooled by such a signal. Assuming that my rough formula for computing the >cell frequency is correct, boosting your voltage isn't going to get you to >15,000 cps. For example, a boost to 300 volts would give a frequency of >(300/162)(556) = 1030 cps--nowhere near good enough. Therefore, the only >shot I see at fooling your meter would be to run with the cathode just >beneath the surface of the water. If, for example, you were 10 cm below the >surface when the frequency was 200 cps, then .37 cm should give you 15000 >cps. With such a configuration, of course, the electrolyte level would drop [snip] I think you the pressure resulting from the depth of water should be taken as a correction to the atmospheric pressure, and as such will be relatively small (i.e. not such a large factor). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 15:19:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03115; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:18:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:18:42 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:18:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20000120111246.0079c360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000120232300.0070e9c4@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000120232300.0070e9c4 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA03074 Resent-Message-ID: <"OpiTc1.0.am.HbEYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:23:00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >An alloy commonly used in commercial hydrogen purifiers is about >75%Pd/25%Ag and was developed decades ago to prevent the cracking that >inevitably occurred with pure Pd. This information was supplied to me by >Robert Buxbaum, President of REB Research (www.rebresearch.com) who make >hydrogen purifiers. Robert buys this alloy all the time from somebody >(maybe Englehard) in the form of tubing. > >Could this be what J&M call Type A palladium!? [snip] It might be worth trying even if it isn't. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 16:59:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03130; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:57:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:57:06 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:57:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20000121173307.007a1d30 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000121181105.0079b250@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000121181105.0079b250 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA03099 Resent-Message-ID: <"Sv_yP.0.km.Y1GYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:11:05 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >now. Or sit. As in: dead in the water. > >- Jed Are there any of these cathodes still around, but not in use? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 16:59:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02630; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:56:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:56:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:01:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Meter Types... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"U8cSW2.0.0f.f0GYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, If possible, a good analog meter is always nice as a back up and there are a couple of types that are very good as far as discarding artifact... some types use thermal effects to measure the signal. JHS On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >At 10:22 AM 1/20/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >>...But, of course, the steam quickly rises > >>again, the liquid electrolyte presses in toward the cathode again, and the > >>process is repeated, over and over and over. > > > >I can see evidence of that process happening in the current trace. The > >frequency (it's not very regular) is in the low audio range (~200 Hz) and > >is actually audible as a "rumbling" from the cell. > > ***{Now *that* is useful information! If you go back to a cathode that is > 50 mm^2, like Mizuno's, that should put the frequency to about (50/18)(200) > = 556 cps. As I recall, a state of the art meter of recent vintage samples > at about 15,000 cps, which is about 27 times faster, and should not be > fooled by such a signal. Assuming that my rough formula for computing the > cell frequency is correct, boosting your voltage isn't going to get you to > 15,000 cps. For example, a boost to 300 volts would give a frequency of > (300/162)(556) = 1030 cps--nowhere near good enough. Therefore, the only > shot I see at fooling your meter would be to run with the cathode just > beneath the surface of the water. If, for example, you were 10 cm below the > surface when the frequency was 200 cps, then .37 cm should give you 15000 > cps. With such a configuration, of course, the electrolyte level would drop > pretty quickly below your cathode, but it might be worth a shot. If you had > to, you could set up a siphon connected to a larger external container of > electrolyte, preheated to near boiling with an immersion heater. As > electrolyte boiled away in the cell, the siphon would pull in more from the > external reservoir, maintaining the level. --MJ}*** > > The RF signal is > >presumably generated by the fast rise time of these current spikes and > >therefore consists of a series of broadband "pops" that make a "static" > >sound on the radio. > > > >>Therefore, here is a suggestion: see if you can deliberately tune the spike > >>frequency to your meter's sampling frequency. > > > >I can't seem to fool either the Fluke 87 or the Clarke-Hess. I've used > >them throughout my experimentation over a wide range of voltages and cell > >conditions and observed good agreement with my calorimetry. However, I > >will endeavor to try a number of meters, mostly cheaper ones, to see if I > >can find a meter that is fooled by this type of signal. > > ***{If you can obtain a meter like Mizuno is using, that would be ideal. > --MJ}*** > > > > > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > > Austin Texas USA 78759 > > 512-342-2185 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 17:28:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15290; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:27:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:27:11 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:32:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Buy?: Ant-101 Mills Book In-Reply-To: <93.8c4a08.25b7d196 aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZgK401.0.qk3.kTGYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, What address to buy Milss' book, please, Thankyy, John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 17:49:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21735; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:47:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:47:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IE Article Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:47:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA21714 Resent-Message-ID: <"PTHlg3.0.TJ5.mmGYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:43:29 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:54:54 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >[snip] >>So Eugene, what happened to the other two articles on the resonant nuclear >>generator? >Is this going to get a reply? Apparently not. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 18:58:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA12450; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:56:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:56:50 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <3f.371a5.25ba764f aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:56:15 EST Subject: Re: Fw: The 1999 Darwin Awards To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"4gbzO.0.P23.onHYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, Not for the weak-stomached indeed. I liked the award a year or two ago to the fellow out west who strapped some JATO units to his VW and crashed into a cliff several hundred feet above road level. Have you got a website URL for the Darwin awards? I wonder if the people who make the awards give any sources for these bizarre stories. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 19:50:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30142; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:49:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:49:44 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Fw: The 1999 Darwin Awards Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:00:15 -0500 Message-ID: <20000122040015890.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ojCnt.0.uM7.OZIYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.darwinawards.com/ >Have you got a website URL for the Darwin awards? I wonder if the people who >make the awards give any sources for these bizarre stories. > >Tom Stolper Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 20:11:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04008; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:08:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:08:30 -0800 Message-ID: <03bd01bf6496$98451740$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3f.371a5.25ba764f aol.com> Subject: Re: Fw: The 1999 Darwin Awards Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:06:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"U1zfR.0.Y-.yqIYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Fw: The 1999 Darwin Awards Tom Stolper wrote: > Fred, > > Not for the weak-stomached indeed. I liked the award a year or two ago to > the fellow out west who strapped some JATO units to his VW and crashed into a > cliff several hundred feet above road level. > > Have you got a website URL for the Darwin awards? I wonder if the people who > make the awards give any sources for these bizarre stories. Afraid I can't help you there, Tom. The item was forwarded to me. BTW, you might want to apply for a job in a circus act where you get shot out of a cannon. I applied awhile back, but they said I wasn't the right caliber. Best, Frederick > > Tom Stolper > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 21:30:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA29157; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:27:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:27:56 -0800 Message-ID: <20000122052746.24432.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:27:46 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"n3m3E3.0.Q77.S_JYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I could get interested in buying some JM Pd-A. > I do not know how much an "ingot" is, but anyway, it would not be an actual > ingot lump, but a mix of rods, foils (plates), wires and whatnot, according > to our specifications. That is another issue we would have to work out. > Processing it into different shapes might cost extra. F&P always used rods. I was going to ask in what form does the material come? I am not prepared to melt, cast, forge, draw, temper, anneal, etc. Besides, NHE did lots of that and didn't get far. If I am going to spend my own money, then I want mine as rods made the same way Pons and Fleischman had them. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 21:42:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA32644; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:34:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:34:10 -0800 Message-ID: <20000122053356.21656.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:33:56 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Meter Types... To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"haquU3.0.xz7.G5KYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > If possible, a good analog meter is always nice as a back up and > there are a couple of types that are very good as far as discarding > artifact... Analog meters are useful only if they are high quality and you can compare them with a known good meter. I fell into the "cheap analog meter trap" when I started out in cold fusion experiments. False economy. I discovered that they were not very linear, and some of them were over 5% in error in some parts of their ranges. They were usually not within the manufacturers' specifications. I got much better accuracy consistently with relatively cheap digital meters. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 22:48:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA13826; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:38:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:38:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000122003145.007177d8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:31:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xk9Gx.0.yN3.f1LYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:48 AM 1/21/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Now *that* is useful information! If you go back to a cathode that is >50 mm^2, like Mizuno's, that should put the frequency to about (50/18)(200) >= 556 cps. Bigger usually means slower. ...Therefore, the only >shot I see at fooling your meter would be to run with the cathode just >beneath the surface of the water. The cell tends to explode when you run it like that because the electrical discharges can reach the surface and ignite the H2 and O2 mixture in the head space! That has happened to us 4 times before and, fortunately, the cell has been inside the thick insulated enclosure every time. Now that I'm running it out in the open, I am nervous about the electrolyte level. I'm probably NOT going to try it with the cathode just below the surface. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 22:48:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16552; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:45:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:45:14 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:45:05 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000120082133921.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Resent-Message-ID: <"tQNAi2.0.Y24.v7LYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke wrote > >Another crazy idea, make the turbine an acrylic Tesla turbine, Michael, This post touched a nerve because I spent some money on investigating the design and as far as I have been able to determine the boundry layer turbine is a dud. Have any of you Vortexians ever seen a working model with an efficiency of over 35%? Thomas Malloy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 05:14:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03684; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 05:11:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 05:11:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 07:07:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"wiq5F.0.Qv.2oQYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:48:52 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>fooled by such a signal. Assuming that my rough formula for computing the >>cell frequency is correct, boosting your voltage isn't going to get you to >>15,000 cps. For example, a boost to 300 volts would give a frequency of >>(300/162)(556) = 1030 cps--nowhere near good enough. Therefore, the only >>shot I see at fooling your meter would be to run with the cathode just >>beneath the surface of the water. If, for example, you were 10 cm below the >>surface when the frequency was 200 cps, then .37 cm should give you 15000 >>cps. With such a configuration, of course, the electrolyte level would drop >[snip] >I think you the pressure resulting from the depth of water should be taken >as a correction to the atmospheric pressure, and as such will be relatively >small (i.e. not such a large factor). ***{You are correct: it would be total pressure--weight per unit area of the atmosphere plus weight per unit area of the water--that acts to compress the steam cloak. With atmospheric pressure at 1036 gm/cc, and the weight of the water adding a mere 1 gm/cm^2 per cm of depth, going from a depth of 10 cm to a depth of .37 cm will not have a significant effect on the frequency. Thus it appears that Scott would have to evacuate his cell with a vacuum pump to get the frequency to 15,000 cps--which means: it ain't gonna happen. Since you have shot down plan A, how do we get Scott's frequency up to 15,000 cps? Another attempt to boost the frequency of the arcs--plan B, if you will--would be to lower the resistivity of the steam cloak by adding metallic impurities to the electrolyte. The average thickness of the cloak has to be great enough so that its breakdown voltage exceeds the potential difference across it. Hence the lower its resistivity, the thicker it must be to achieve a given breakdown voltage. The less resistive the steam in the cloak, the more arcing it will support, and the larger the current flow. And, if the arcing reaches the sampling frequency of Scott's meters--I'm guessing 15,000 cps--most of the current flow may cease to be measured, producing a sudden drop in metered current, and giving rise to bogus "over unity" numbers. But how do we decide what metals to add? Since the metallic ions are going to be plated onto the cathode when an arc occurs, probably right in the center of the crater blasted out by the arc, perhaps we should use soluble salts of Fe, Ni, and Cr. Those metals, after all, were found by EDX spectroscopy in the center of one of the craters on a Mizuno cathode. He thinks they came from transmutations, but if the CF effect is not real, they came from impurities. Hence they tell us what kind of metallic salts to use to reduce resistivity across the steam cloak. [Note: he also sometimes found Fe, Ca, and Ti plated out in the centers of craters, so those metals might be worth a try as well.] So there you have it: plan B. Fire when ready, Gridley! :-) By the way, the revised frequency formula would seem to be f = kVA/rP, where k is a constant of proportionality, V is voltage, A is cathode area, r is the restivity of the steam cloak, and P is the average pressure on the cathode. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 05:30:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA08626; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 05:28:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 05:28:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000122003145.007177d8 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 07:25:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"q9tBd2.0.d62.L2RYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 09:48 AM 1/21/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{Now *that* is useful information! If you go back to a cathode that is >>50 mm^2, like Mizuno's, that should put the frequency to about (50/18)(200) >>= 556 cps. > >Bigger usually means slower. ***{In this case, the larger cathode means a larger steam cloak, which in turn means a greater surface area of electrolyte wall that must be held back by arcs, and hence more arcs will be required to hold it back. [Explanation: As an area of the electrolyte wall presses in toward the cathode, the thickness of the cloak is reduced, and, the less the thickness, the less the breakdown voltage across the cloak at that point. When the breakdown voltage falls below the potential difference (162 volts, in your present setup), that region of electrolyte is going to get zapped by an arc. The arc will vaporize the intruding electrolyte, thickening the cloak in that region. Hence the larger the area of the outer surface of the cloak, the larger the number of arcs that will be required to maintain it. Hence the higher the frequency of the cell.] --MJ}*** > >...Therefore, the only >>shot I see at fooling your meter would be to run with the cathode just >>beneath the surface of the water. > >The cell tends to explode when you run it like that because the electrical >discharges can reach the surface and ignite the H2 and O2 mixture in the >head space! That has happened to us 4 times before and, fortunately, the >cell has been inside the thick insulated enclosure every time. Now that >I'm running it out in the open, I am nervous about the electrolyte level. >I'm probably NOT going to try it with the cathode just below the surface. ***{Robin shot the suggestion down, so I withdraw it. I had failed to focus on the fact that most of the pressure is contributed by the atmosphere and, thus, moving the cathode closer to the surface will have a negligible tendency to expand the steam cloak. However, I succeeded in coming up with another way to expand the steam cloak: add soluble metallic salts of Fe, Ni, and Cr (or Fe, Ti, and Ca) to the electrolyte. See my response to Robin for the details. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 06:12:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18668; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:11:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:11:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000122091005.00797310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:10:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000121181105.0079b250 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000121173307.007a1d30 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000121181105.0079b250 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"15_ZJ1.0.XZ4.QgRYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Are there any of these cathodes still around, but not in use? Fleischmann and I do not know of any. Michael Schaffer wrote: >I was going to ask in what form does the material come? I am not prepared to >melt, cast, forge, draw, temper, anneal, etc. Besides, NHE did lots of that >and didn't get far. If I am going to spend my own money, then I want mine as >rods made the same way Pons and Fleischman had them. I think that would be a wise choice. However, you can have your cake and eat it too. Apparently there would be enough material to include some foils too. Ed Storms and others think that is a better geometry, with more surface area. The NHE did indeed do lots, but they made some fundamental mistakes, according to Bob Huggins and Ed Storms. Huggins said they made the wrong kind of material, with large grains, and Storms said they did not evaluate it properly or keep the surface clean. Nevertheless, when Bush cleaned up and tested a sample of NHE Pd in his ultra-sensitive Calvet calorimeter, he did see small but significant excess heat. The NHE calorimeters & formulas would not have detected it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 08:19:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14009; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:18:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:18:34 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:29:06 -0500 Message-ID: <20000122162906781.AAA241 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"NH9Ud1.0.pQ3.QXTYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >The cell tends to explode when you run it like that because the electrical >discharges can reach the surface and ignite the H2 and O2 mixture in the >head space! That has happened to us 4 times before and, fortunately, the >cell has been inside the thick insulated enclosure every time. Now that >I'm running it out in the open, I am nervous about the electrolyte level. >I'm probably NOT going to try it with the cathode just below the surface. If you are worried about this, and you probably should be, you should construct a blast deflector, and do as much work as possible from behind that. Buy a 3' x 4' Polycarbonate, maybe 1/2" thick, sheet, and it shouldn't be too expensive. Weld a bracket onto a fitting and screw it into an adjustable microphone stand. You can find these for peanuts in the music section of a local classifieds, sometimes under $20. Sandbag the bottom of the mic stand for added stability. A stand-up drill press might work for a stand as well. Maybe even tilt the Polycarbonate sheet back 30 degrees or so to deflect a blast up and away from you. That should be standard lab equipment for this type of endeavor. An alternative for this experiment would be a piece of large diameter Polycarbonate pipe around the whole gizmo. That wouldn't be as cheap as a sheet, but you would have more viewing access angles. Getting the fan in there would require over 12" in diameter, but it could, and should be done. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 09:02:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26251; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:01:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:01:27 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6coj8s832oadhp25psqa43jog3em91jges 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c@mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.200001202315 42.00700a1c mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA26223 Resent-Message-ID: <"DpPDy3.0.3Q6.b9UYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 07:07:41 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >Since you have shot down plan A, how do we get Scott's frequency up to >15,000 cps? Since it is apparent that Scott would only be able to do this with considerable effort, it seems likely that O&M are also only producing low frequency. So just send Scott's meter to Japan, or ask O&M to try the same brand and model (borrow one locally?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 10:24:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16484; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:23:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:23:02 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:33:33 -0500 Message-ID: <20000122183333890.AAA233 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"eQ2wB3.0.U14.6MVYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, One of the things that I've been wondering about, is the quantity of EM that plasmas are supposed to be able to absorb. According to Jean Luis, it is one of the features of plasma skins that it is used by military aircraft for radar cloaking. If there is a difference in the EM emission between any of the components, say for example the stirring motors, of Scott's and Mizuno's configurations, then this may be the reason for the differences in results, as well. If Scott's stirring motor is like a small clip-on fan motor (AC with no brushes), and Mizuno's is like an ACDC type with brushes, then the extra EM might be getting drawn into the plasma of the cathode. How much, or if this is even a possibility, would the questions. I don't know if this has been brought up before, so if it has, just say so and I'll look through the archives. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 14:40:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25487; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:38:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:38:30 -0800 Message-ID: <004701bf6529$57640360$1c637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: Subject: Re: IE Article Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:37:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"bT2ZM2.0.4E6.c5ZYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, Sorry for the tardy reply. I asked Gene about this. He rarely has time to read Vortex very much. At present, Paul Brown owes us replies to several of our inquiries. We would like to do some testing on one of his nuclear batteries. I think that articles are contingent on communication with Paul getting back to normal. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 8:47 PM Subject: Re: IE Article > On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:43:29 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:54:54 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >[snip] > >>So Eugene, what happened to the other two articles on the resonant nuclear > >>generator? > >Is this going to get a reply? > > Apparently not. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 14:47:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29529; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:46:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:46:03 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IE Article Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:45:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1nck8sck7t8i9nfo37q7i1vkfv8ht5vb15 4ax.com> References: <004701bf6529$57640360$1c637dc7@computer> In-Reply-To: <004701bf6529$57640360$1c637dc7 computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA29504 Resent-Message-ID: <"HwF3U1.0.JD7.hCZYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:37:07 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: >Robin, > >Sorry for the tardy reply. > >I asked Gene about this. He rarely has time to read Vortex very much. > >At present, Paul Brown owes us replies to several of our inquiries. We >would like to do some testing on one of his nuclear batteries. I think that >articles are contingent on communication with Paul getting back to normal. [snip] Thanks for the reply nevertheless Ed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 16:58:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00809; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 16:57:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 16:57:54 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 20:08:26 -0500 Message-ID: <20000123010826921.AAA224 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"YZ4A72.0.ZC.H8bYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom writes: >Michael, This post touched a nerve because I spent some money on >investigating the design and as far as I have been able to determine the >boundry layer turbine is a dud. Have any of you Vortexians ever seen a >working model with an efficiency of over 35%? > >Thomas Malloy Hi Tom, I can sympathize with the loss of money part, but that is a part of the investigative process that can be lessened by better communications in forums like this one. I haven't personally seen any Tesla Turbines, but I have run across some links of diehards that show some working prototypes that claim to be pretty efficient. Some of the photos that I've seen show some ones that look to be quite professionally done, as well. I'd have to go back and see exactly what they were claiming for efficiency rates, measurement techniques, etc., but I will do all of that eventually. I usually run across stuff like this when I'm researching something else, and I haven't been organized well enough to bookmark all of the pages that I've found. Simple net searches can turn up a lot, but I've found some really good stuff buried so well that it will never show up on the search engines unless the page creator does a better job of indexing. I have so many ideas and topics that I read up on that my bookmark list is getting to be around 4000 bookmarks. Managing them is a chore that I don't do often enough, either. I will make an effort to create a pigeonhole for the T. Turbine. I already have some info on the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube on my website, and would welcome more. If anyone does have a collection of links dealing with either subject, I'd sure appreciate them. As for the project that you were involved with, it might have been a good idea if it had been developed in a public forum like this one so that more people could have given their input. We may have been able to help (granted, opinions may vary on that point:). You might also consider posting the stuff that you do have on a website for the sake of future developers. There may be some good info in there despite the "not so hot" results that you experienced. Something to consider anyway. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 19:41:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10921; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:37:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:37:34 -0800 Message-ID: <20000123033730.26494.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:37:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"48msL3.0.Zg2.-TdYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This post touched a nerve because I spent some money on > investigating the design and as far as I have been able to determine the > boundry layer turbine is a dud. Have any of you Vortexians ever seen a > working model with an efficiency of over 35%? The Tesla turbine has simple design. However, Tesla (boundary layer) turbines are inherently inefficient. They rely on viscous drag in order to convert the momentum of the nozzle stream into torque. Unfortunatley, viscosity inherently dissipates energy. Even if there are no parasitic losses, the boundary layer process dissipates 50% of the available energy. Bladed turbines and compressors are designed to minimize viscous loss. They convert the fluid momentum into torque at high speed with little energy dissipation. Blade design is complicated. Blade (rotor and stator) design is highly optimized by computer these days. High compressor and turbine efficiency is of overarching importance in gas turbines, where a large amount of power is drawn from the turbine to drive the compressor and is then recovered again by the turbine (high recirculating power). Inefficiency in the compression-expansion process decreases the overall efficiency of the power unit by an even larger amount. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 19:42:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12802; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:41:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:41:18 -0800 Message-ID: <20000123034115.11546.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:41:15 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ts5a12.0.u73.UXdYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed R. wrote: > ....The NHE did indeed do lots, but they made some fundamental > mistakes, according to Bob Huggins and Ed Storms. Huggins said they made > the wrong kind of material, with large grains, and Storms said they did not > evaluate it properly or keep the surface clean. I want to avoid having to learn how to do the metallurgy to avoid large grains and whatever else (we are not even sure) can go wrong. A metallurgy research program is way beyond my means. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 20:00:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19805; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:56:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:56:56 -0800 Message-ID: <20000123035653.28006.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:56:53 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"NkDPU2.0.Nr4.8mdYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >One of the things that I've been wondering about, is the quantity of EM that >plasmas are supposed to be able to absorb. According to Jean Luis, it is >one of the features of plasma skins that it is used by military aircraft for >radar cloaking. [snip] As your friendly plasma physicist, I'd like to set a few things straight. Plasmas typically absorb EM strongly only at a few resonant frequencies. They TRANSMIT high frequency EM with low loss. Of course, if the plasma is thick enough, it will eventually absorb the EM wave anyway, since the transmission is not completely loss free. Plasmas REFLECT low frequency EM. (Here, "high" and "low" frequency is relative to the plasma properties, not to any particular absolute frequency.) I think this belief that plasmas are used to reduce radar reflectivity of "stealth" aircraft is just a myth. I don't see how one can make a plasma highly absorbing over the full range of radar bands. Aircraft stealth is a combination of solid absorber materials and shaping the surfaces to minimize radar cross sections in the first instance. Reflecting plasmas have been used in the lab as microwave antenna components. One advantage is that the plasma, because its mass and therefore inertia are low, can be moved in very short times to point beams rapidly from one angle to another. I do not know if the results have been good enough to lead to actual applications. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 20:47:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04284; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 20:44:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 20:44:01 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:54:34 -0500 Message-ID: <20000123045434156.AAA239 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"cEfZ72.0.n21.HSeYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Schaffer writes: >The Tesla turbine has simple design. However, Tesla (boundary layer) turbines >are inherently inefficient. They rely on viscous drag in order to convert the >momentum of the nozzle stream into torque. Hi Mike, I would figure that the boundary layer idea was not the most efficient, but I was thinking more along the lines of a bladed Telsa Turbine. I've seen old patent drawings of this. This would sort of be similar to a Jacuzzi style pump rotor, only used as a turbine, instead. I think this might be more efficient. I also was thinking not so much in terms of using the rotor to drive a DC generator, but using the spinning dialectric disk in the same fashion as a Van der Graaf HV generator. This might be even more interesting and useful if the HV were directed into a Jean Luis style wind fairing. Consider this, a ramjet scoop at the bottom front of a vehicle (like the grill section) is ducted to a Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube. Part of the cold air output going to the drive motor to cool it, and the rest to the passenger compartment as needed with closable vents. Part of the hot air ducted to the passenger compartment as needed with closable vents, and the rest going into the turbine. There is a great deal more volume of hot air, I believe. The turbine is made of acrylic with static electrical collectors on the rim, and the HV directed to a fairing at the front of the vehicle. The hot air exhaust is ported out the rear. Without having to drive a regular generator's mechanical load, the turbine could conceivably reach fairly high RPMs, even at relatively low traveling speeds. Normally, all the air hitting the front end has to be pummeled against, and overpowered anyway. This just might be a novel way to use it better. A guy called me the other day or so, and said he was building EV's from the ground up for $5,000 and selling them for $10,000. I asked him how he made it through the regulatory hassles, and he said it was no problem -"just get rid of one of the wheels, and it classifies as a motorcycle!" I've practically got one completely designed in my head already. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 22:48:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00982; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:45:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:45:53 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:45:15 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Wattmeter Search To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"k0KGV1.0.GF.XEgYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have completed construction of what amounts to a constant wattage HV power supply. A Texmate model D50S digital smart meter with a DD-1 input module performs the I x V calculations, displays watts and sends an analog signal to a Watlow DC-1P phase angle power controller, which controls the AC input to the HV transformer. http://www.texmate.com/ and http://www.watlow.com/products/control/power/dinamite.html A Bournes 10 turn pot connected in the signal line between the Texmate meter and the Watlow controller in a negative feedback loop allows precise setting of power delivered to the primary winding of the HV transformer. There were a few minor problems with electrical noise (mostly from the SCR's in the Watlow) on the feedback lines from the glow discharge tube, but I solved them with the addition of capacitors, RC networks and a Corcom EMI filter. This last installed between the Watlow controller and the HV transformer primary. All control lines were thoroughly checked for electrical noise with a dual channel 300 MHz scope with the glow discharge running. I have run several tests at various fill pressures with the new power control and am quite satisfied that it holds power input to the glow discharge tube perfectly. It indicates and holds input power to plus or minus 1 watt. At the suggestion of Watlow I will install special electronic fuses on the input and output sides of the power controller to protect the controller's SCR's against any stray high voltage spikes, so formal calibrations will have to wait until next week. I did hang a scope on these lines and saw nice waveforms with just a tiny 5 volt spike at SCR turn on but I want to be sure nothing nasty can get through. It's a real joy to be able to crank the controller pot up to a 20 watt setting and watch it hold the setting as the glow tube characteristics change with temperature rise. I should now to get some good numbers for the 18 to 20 calibration runs I will conduct at a set power input. A note of thanks for the superb customer service provided by Watlow and especially Texmate. Martin Ibarra went the "extra mile" for me adding special programming and hardware to the DD-1 input module to correctly indicate power input with my 100 to 1 voltage divider. Also had a very pleasant chat with their Chief Engineer Ramdas Menon. I mentioned this group to him and while I on the phone with him he logged in to it. Told him if he wants to subscribe a friendly donation of 10 bucks a year would be appreciated by Mr. Bill. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 23:01:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA03785; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:55:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:55:59 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <67.e6b146.25bbfff8 aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:55:52 EST Subject: Good reference for AC and DC circuits To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"XeigH3.0.3x._NgYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For the younger Vortexians (and guys like me who have forgotten) here is a site with good references and examples of AC and DC circuits. http://www.sweethaven.com/acee/forms/toc01.htm#10 Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 08:29:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09846; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:28:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:28:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000123045434156.AAA239 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:24:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Resent-Message-ID: <"ZsWGO2.0.hP2.2noYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mike Schaffer writes: >>The Tesla turbine has simple design. However, Tesla (boundary layer) turbines >>are inherently inefficient. They rely on viscous drag in order to convert the >>momentum of the nozzle stream into torque. > >Hi Mike, > >I would figure that the boundary layer idea was not the most efficient, but >I was thinking more along the lines of a bladed Telsa Turbine. I've seen >old patent drawings of this. This would sort of be similar to a Jacuzzi >style pump rotor, only used as a turbine, instead. I think this might be >more efficient. I also was thinking not so much in terms of using the rotor >to drive a DC generator, but using the spinning dialectric disk in the same >fashion as a Van der Graaf HV generator. This might be even more >interesting and useful if the HV were directed into a Jean Luis style wind >fairing. > >Consider this, a ramjet scoop at the bottom front of a vehicle (like the >grill section) is ducted to a Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube. Part of the cold >air output going to the drive motor to cool it, and the rest to the >passenger compartment as needed with closable vents. Part of the hot air >ducted to the passenger compartment as needed with closable vents, and the >rest going into the turbine. There is a great deal more volume of hot air, >I believe. The turbine is made of acrylic with static electrical collectors >on the rim, and the HV directed to a fairing at the front of the vehicle. >The hot air exhaust is ported out the rear. Without having to drive a >regular generator's mechanical load, the turbine could conceivably reach >fairly high RPMs, even at relatively low traveling speeds. > >Normally, all the air hitting the front end has to be pummeled against, and >overpowered anyway. This just might be a novel way to use it better. > >A guy called me the other day or so, and said he was building EV's from the >ground up for $5,000 and selling them for $10,000. I asked him how he made >it through the regulatory hassles, and he said it was no problem -"just get >rid of one of the wheels, and it classifies as a motorcycle!" ***{That's an interesting idea: build a giant tricycle! Here's another: how about 5 wheels, or perhaps 6? Would that avoid the "automobile" classification? I'll bet it would, because I remember a company a few years ago that built a 6 wheeled segmented crawler--Coot Corp., if I recall correctly--and their vehicle was definitely bare bones. No air bags, seat belts, etc., and yet they definitely sold to the public. I actually test drove the thing, and heard their sales pitch. --MJ}*** I've >practically got one completely designed in my head already. > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 08:29:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09819; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:28:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:28:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6coj8s832oadhp25psqa43jog3em91jges 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:22:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"m-75N2.0.LP2._moYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 07:07:41 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>Since you have shot down plan A, how do we get Scott's frequency up to >>15,000 cps? >Since it is apparent that Scott would only be able to do this with >considerable effort ***{As I mentioned, Mizuno and Ohmori claim to have found Fe, Ni, and Cr in some of the microcraters on the surfaces of their used cathodes. [See IE#27, pg. 37.] Since metallic ions in solution would probably enhance the conductivity of the cloak, leading to its expansion and, as a consequence, to an increase in the frequency of the emissions, it is *not* clear to me that much effort would be required to get Scott's frequency a lot higher. The addition of soluble salts of these metals--particularly the iron, since it was present in *all* of the microcraters--would not be difficult, and might work. Granted, it also might not work. Scott has pointed out that changing the molarity of the K2CO3 did little to change the current, because the resistance of the steam cloak was more important than the conductivity of the solution. Since more potassium ions would be present in the cloak if the molarity of the solution were higher, and since raising the molarity made little difference in the current, that might be true of iron as well. On the other hand, it might not. I think it should be tested. --MJ}*** , it seems likely that O&M are also only producing low >frequency. ***{This is also not clear, for the reason given above. Does anybody have experience in this area? How might one go about increasing the conductivity of steam? Anybody? It seems to me that if there are impurities that would have such an effect, then O&M could be putting out a much higher frequency than Scott, and, if so, they could be using, and fooling, state-of-the-art meters. Moreover, if such impurities exist, then if Scott adds them to his own electrolyte, he will be able to fool his own meters. Granted, this is just a wooly speculation on my part, but until we somehow explain the difference between Scott's results and those of O&M, such hypotheses are in order. --MJ}*** So just send Scott's meter to Japan, or ask O&M to try the same >brand and model (borrow one locally?) ***{Or, as I suggested yesterday, Scott could simply do a run using the same kind of meter as Mizuno. --MJ}*** > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 08:46:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15302; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:43:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:43:54 -0800 Message-ID: <047201bf65c9$45f9e4a0$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Thermophotovoltaic (TPV) Car Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:42:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6586.2F9E74C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"nkLLV3.0.0l3.A_oYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6586.2F9E74C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should run good on about any fuel, including Horse Puckey. :-) http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/index.htm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6586.2F9E74C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Vehicle Research Institute at Western Washington University.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Vehicle Research Institute at Western Washington University.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/index.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/index.htm Modified=A0219ABEC865BF0106 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6586.2F9E74C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 08:47:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16284; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:46:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:46:47 -0800 Message-ID: <047301bf65c9$ac6204c0$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: TPV Photos Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:45:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6586.9709FB20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"87rhr.0.J-3.s1pYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6586.9709FB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/tpv_photos.htm ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6586.9709FB20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="TPV Photos.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TPV Photos.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/tpv_photos.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/tpv_photos.htm Modified=00782176C965BF01FD ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF6586.9709FB20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 09:11:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24360; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:09:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:09:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001601bf65c4$9b85dd20$5fb47ed8 mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:09:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2MJeK1.0.Vy5.aNpYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael, Do you know of ways to tap the plasma created to power electric loads? Like, One Atmosphere Uniform Glow Discharge Plasma (OAUGDP), from Jean-Louis' http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp3.htm or the UTK, at http://plasma.ee.utk.edu/? Regards, Michael Randall >As your friendly plasma physicist, I'd like to set a few things straight. >Plasmas typically absorb EM strongly only at a few resonant frequencies. They >TRANSMIT high frequency EM with low loss. Of course, if the plasma is thick >enough, it will eventually absorb the EM wave anyway, since the transmission From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 12:00:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16942; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:59:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:59:11 -0800 Message-ID: <003701bf65dc$3ef1aea0$a0637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <20000123035653.28006.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Plasmas, was: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:53:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Dob_i.0.a84.FsrYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Reflecting plasmas have been used in the lab as microwave antenna components. > One advantage is that the plasma, because its mass and therefore inertia are > low, can be moved in very short times to point beams rapidly from one angle > to another. I do not know if the results have been good enough to lead to > actual applications. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer FAA radars used to have a component called a T/R tube (transmit/receive) that would alternately connect the receiver or transmitter to the antenna for primary (1+ megawatt pulse) radar. The tubes worked well enough to isolate the very sensitive receiver from the transmitted pulse, then immediately redirect the replies from targets into the receiver. A T/R tube failure would be very bad news for the receiver. I do not recall exactly what kind of waveguide magic replaced the T/R tube. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 12:00:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17015; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:59:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:59:15 -0800 Message-ID: <003801bf65dc$3ffcb600$a0637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <20000123034115.11546.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:58:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Sv43L3.0.m94.IsrYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Schaffer To: Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2000 10:41 PM Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga > Jed R. wrote: > > > ....The NHE did indeed do lots, but they made some fundamental > > mistakes, according to Bob Huggins and Ed Storms. Huggins said they made > > the wrong kind of material, with large grains, and Storms said they did not > > evaluate it properly or keep the surface clean. > > I want to avoid having to learn how to do the metallurgy to avoid large > grains and whatever else (we are not even sure) can go wrong. A metallurgy > research program is way beyond my means. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > A little metallurgy might go a long way. We are gearing up for replication on the work that Professor John Dash at Portland State U. is doing. He shock loads titanium cathodes, and reportedly is getting fairly consistent, if small results, correlated with the amount of shock loading. Shock loading is induced by means of cold rolling. Dash is using a Calvet. Read about it in IE #29. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 13:04:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00453; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:03:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:03:19 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:13:51 -0500 Message-ID: <20000123211351640.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"GZXsb2.0.x6.NosYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{That's an interesting idea: build a giant tricycle! Here's another: how >about 5 wheels, or perhaps 6? Would that avoid the "automobile" >classification? I'll bet it would, because I remember a company a few years >ago that built a 6 wheeled segmented crawler--Coot Corp., if I recall >correctly--and their vehicle was definitely bare bones. No air bags, seat >belts, etc., and yet they definitely sold to the public. I actually test >drove the thing, and heard their sales pitch. --MJ}*** Well, friends of mine used to dress up in tinfoil, and try to register as aliens every year... My grandfather even tried to trade-in his old car for a new one, throwing my grandmother into the deal as well, who happened to be in the old car at the time. I'm just envisioning an old woman 17 years from now trying to register or trade-in her Old Coot. "A Real Classic!" "Yes of course madam, aren't they all?" Yes, a tryke would not lend itself well to regulation, and the governments are still just afraid enough of the nutcases that ride motorcycles that I don't think they would risk starting a revolution with someone like Sonny Barger as the Field Marshall. There would be a million bikers on the steps of the White House within 36 hours if some idiot lawyer tried to introduce anything resembling a motorcycle regulation. The bikers wouldn't be passing out leaflets, or singing Silent Night... As any biker could tell you, an electric model tryke would not require1 billion dollars in phoney development funding either, and the acceleration alone would be enough to put that rock and roll grin in their buggy teeth. Pretty much any thinking person with a paper route, access to a bike boneyard, and shop could build one. It's starting to look more like my kind of project everyday! A really cheap and easy version would be a simple motor swap out with an old motorcycle, and a pile of batteries in a sidecar. I would think you could do the whole thing for less than a grand if you were a good scrounger. Safer, more expensive and sophisticated versions could be designed online, manufactured professionally and made available to the public for a reasonable price, if like I said before, the manufacturer didn't want to be a total swine. Knuke - The Near-Future Classic Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 13:17:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04239; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:15:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:15:23 -0800 Message-ID: <04cc01bf65ef$2ebd24c0$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "IronEagle" , Subject: Re: "Midnight Sun" Stove & TPV Electrical Generator Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:13:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF65AC.0BD12760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"_Fqkh.0.921.gzsYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF65AC.0BD12760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cogeneration at it's best, Sam. I need to check out their stock situation. :-) http://www.jxcrystals.com/profile.htm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF65AC.0BD12760 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Company Profile.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Company Profile.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.jxcrystals.com/profile.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.jxcrystals.com/profile.htm Modified=60B0F796EE65BF01B0 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF65AC.0BD12760-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 13:43:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09396; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:38:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:38:37 -0800 Message-ID: <04f101bf65f2$6ac13080$a6441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "IronEagle" , Subject: Re: "Midnight Sun" TPV and OU/CF Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:36:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"SB4pR1.0.kI2.TJtYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The 25,000 Btu/hr "Midnight Sun" propane-fired stove powers a 100 watt Thermophotovoltaic power generator. At about $2,850 each (US) that's not too bad for charging up a battery pack and heating water while you are warming your buns, on a cold winter night. Now if you could get Les Cases' heater or other OU/CF devices to replace the fossil fuel heat source. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 15:59:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15222; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:58:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:58:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000123211351640.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:53:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Resent-Message-ID: <"U5pZU1.0.ij3.TMvYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitch writes: >>***{That's an interesting idea: build a giant tricycle! Here's another: how >>about 5 wheels, or perhaps 6? Would that avoid the "automobile" >>classification? I'll bet it would, because I remember a company a few years >>ago that built a 6 wheeled segmented crawler--Coot Corp., if I recall >>correctly--and their vehicle was definitely bare bones. No air bags, seat >>belts, etc., and yet they definitely sold to the public. I actually test >>drove the thing, and heard their sales pitch. --MJ}*** > >Well, friends of mine used to dress up in tinfoil, and try to register as >aliens every year... My grandfather even tried to trade-in his old car for >a new one, throwing my grandmother into the deal as well, who happened to be >in the old car at the time. I'm just envisioning an old woman 17 years from >now trying to register or trade-in her Old Coot. "A Real Classic!" "Yes of >course madam, aren't they all?" > >Yes, a tryke would not lend itself well to regulation, and the governments >are still just afraid enough of the nutcases that ride motorcycles that I >don't think they would risk starting a revolution with someone like Sonny >Barger as the Field Marshall. There would be a million bikers on the steps >of the White House within 36 hours if some idiot lawyer tried to introduce >anything resembling a motorcycle regulation. The bikers wouldn't be passing >out leaflets, or singing Silent Night... As any biker could tell you, an >electric model tryke would not require1 billion dollars in phoney >development funding either, and the acceleration alone would be enough to >put that rock and roll grin in their buggy teeth. Pretty much any thinking >person with a paper route, access to a bike boneyard, and shop could build >one. It's starting to look more like my kind of project everyday! > >A really cheap and easy version would be a simple motor swap out with an old >motorcycle, and a pile of batteries in a sidecar. I would think you could >do the whole thing for less than a grand if you were a good scrounger. >Safer, more expensive and sophisticated versions could be designed online, >manufactured professionally and made available to the public for a >reasonable price, if like I said before, the manufacturer didn't want to be >a total swine. ***{The problem with a three-wheeled design with one wheel in front, of course, is that they do not corner well. (They tend to roll over on fast corners.) However, a proper three-wheeled design with 2 wheels in front and one in back can corner better than 4 wheels. Why not borrow a front-wheel drive design from a standard auto, widen the front a bit, shorten the length, and put a single wheel in the center at the back? That ought to work. Also, the segmented crawler idea has a lot of potential. Coot messed it up by looking at it primarily as an off-road, rough-terrain vehicle, and, I believe, went bust. But a segmented crawler with 6, 8, or 10 wheels has a lot of potential as an on-road passenger vehicle, and you could dedicate the first segment to the engine and driver, the second to the batteries, and segments 3, 4, 5, etc., to cassengers and cargo. It is an idea with a lot of intriguing possibilities. (Incorporate as Millipede, Inc. :-) --MJ}*** > >Knuke - The Near-Future Classic >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 17:01:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31224; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:58:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:58:31 -0800 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:58:15 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <6coj8s832oadhp25psqa43jog3em91jges 4ax.com> <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: David Moon's theories Resent-Message-ID: <"jhMND.0.kd7.sEwYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was talking to David Moon this afternoon. He published an article in I E volume 28 reguarding his theories about the mechanisms behind cold fusion. He is looking for feedback on it. I told him that I would post this on Vortex and see what kind of responses I get. David is also looking for an experiementer to build his nucelovoltaic cell. See New Energy News Vol. 6 #9 May '99 p. 8-9 Thomas Malloy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 17:13:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01741; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:09:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:09:51 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:09:00 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c@mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.200001202315 42.00700a1c mail.eden.com> <6coj8s832oadhp25psqa43jog3em91jges@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA01720 Resent-Message-ID: <"iDrLo.0.6R.TPwYu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:22:21 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >So just send Scott's meter to Japan, or ask O&M to try the same >>brand and model (borrow one locally?) > >***{Or, as I suggested yesterday, Scott could simply do a run using the >same kind of meter as Mizuno. --MJ}*** If your speculation that M. has "tuned" his setup to "match" his meter is correct, then it would seem easier to detune a tuned setup, than to tune an untuned one. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 17:17:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05651; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:15:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:15:44 -0800 Message-ID: <388BA04C.2A3C suite224.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:43:56 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner mtaonline.net Subject: ZPE?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Qtq4M.0.9O1._UwYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, Vorts, I've been out of circulation for some time, but in case this is not old news, try: http://www.newscientist.co.uk/features/features.jsp?id=ns222237 Frank Stenger (By way of my friend, Larry Adams) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 17:54:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18870; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:52:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:52:28 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:51:43 EST Subject: Re: Fw: The 1999 Darwin Awards To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"ICVKN.0.mc4.S1xYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 01/21/2000 10:50:55 PM, Michael Huffman wrote: << http://www.darwinawards.com/ >> Thanks for the URL. I might have guessed that was it but didn't. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 18:27:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02622; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:25:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:25:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:25:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list eskimo.com Subject: Taking orders: Stong's AMATEUR SCIENTIST Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"odH3_2.0.de.dWxYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The SAS is now taking advanced orders for the soon-to-be-published CDROM of the entire 70 year run of Scientific American's THE AMATEUR SCIENTIST column. They hope to have it out mid year. The price will go up (it's $50USD at present) Go to their website: http://www.tinkersguild.com/sciStore.html http://www.tinkersguild.com/ Buy a stack of them for next X-mas? ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 18:32:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05678; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:30:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:30:58 -0800 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:35:53 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: TR Radar In-Reply-To: <003701bf65dc$3ef1aea0$a0637dc7 computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xRB_p3.0.XO1.XbxYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y T-R tubes and other diplexers as they are sometimes called can be tubesm solid state and spark gap type... the latter operate and a part of a tuned feed line and spark gap and shorted stub or section... very clever stuff. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 20:22:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15014; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:21:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:21:16 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF65DF.12991D40.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst Reply-To: "bhorst ieee.org" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:18:53 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 67 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"JaH_y2.0.Ug3.yCzYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Replying to Michael Huffman's comments: I was out of town last week, so my reply is a little late: Well, the tax credits are an interesting issue, since you've brought that up. I didn't realize they were part of the package. I see from the rest of your post that you've rented "the full boat" in car dealer parlance, including the NiMH battery pack, so the car that you are renting has a nominal value of just under $50,000 excluding FOB, sales tax etc.. You get 9 grand in tax credits over the course of the lease, so you pay $500 per month rental for 36 months, and GM nominally loses the rest for a net Federal tax deduction for them of around $37,000 per vehicle rented. That's a better deal for GM than some of their defense projects - not all of course, but certainly some. You are also correct about the fuel savings which would apply to any electrical vehicle, and also correct about the deal for you. You actually end up paying only $3000 per year in rent for a commuter vehicle after your tax credits kick in. I guess the US taxpayer picks up all of the rest, or is your tax credit a state thing? Either way, that really is outstanding... I did not exactly follow your reasoning. The tax credit was 5K state and 4K federal, or vice versa. It comes off the top to reduce efffective cost of the car being leased, and this reduces the payments. The reduced payments are about $500/mo. >To get any reasonable charge in an hour or two, or a full charge in 6, you >need 220. By this reasoning, no one would ever buy an electric dryer. > With a range of 100 miles you rarely need public chargers at all. I see from your e-mail address that you are a member of the IEEE, so I take it you know a little about electricity. You probably also know that the output voltage of the charger would match the working voltage of the vehicle's battery pack, which would probably be roughly the same as the voltage of the motor. In other words, the input voltage to the charger would be irrelevant. Most residential electric dryers come in both 110 and 220 models. The total wattage would necessarily need to be high enough, though if you were wanting to quick charge, but I would think that 4 or 5kw would be enough. What is the total input wattage on yours? The charging system requires AC service of 220V at 40A. They put new wiring in conduit directly from the box to my garage. It is not practical for a single phase to deliver the power required (you cannot do 110V at 80A). The battery pack holds 26 kwh of energy. It charges in about 6 hours, so the charger must deliver around 4 kw to the batteries. The difference between 4 kw and (220V x 40 A = 8.8kw) must be a combination of margin, energy conversion efficiency loss, and extra power that is delivered to cool the batteries during charging. I understand that the power required for battery cooling is quite significant. There is no 110 charger available for the NiMH cars (as there was for the first gen cars), because sometimes just the power load for cooling exceeds what can be delivered through 110. The AC input to the charger is not directly related to the working voltage of the battery pack (which is 343 volts, by the way). The charger is inductively coupled to the car by placing a paddle in the front. The paddle forms the primary of a transformer, and the secondary coil is in the car. In order to inductively couple, it is obviously AC that is being fed to the car, not DC. There must be a rectifier in the car to convert back to DC to charge the batteries. The motor is an AC induction motor, so the car also has an inverter to convert DC to AC . The inverter delivers from DC-20KHz, depending on speed. The induction motor give very good low end torque, and is brushless to avoid reliability problems. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 20:23:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13156; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:18:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:18:03 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:28:35 -0500 Message-ID: <20000124042835343.AAA232 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"7cj-U.0.QD3.w9zYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{The problem with a three-wheeled design with one wheel in front, of >course, is that they do not corner well. (They tend to roll over on fast >corners.) However, a proper three-wheeled design with 2 wheels in front and >one in back can corner better than 4 wheels. Why not borrow a front-wheel >drive design from a standard auto, widen the front a bit, shorten the >length, and put a single wheel in the center at the back? You're absolutely right about the "betterness" of a front two-wheel design, if you are going to design one from the ground up. Subaru used to make a front wheel drive that might be adaptable, but it would be easier in the long run I think, just to make your own frame. The rack and pinion steering, suspension, wheels and brakes might be good things to rob off of other cars though, just because they would be expensive to fabricate properly yourself. Stick them onto a T-frame and put a big, fat tire on the back. For the sake of simplicity, and to balance the weight load, I would put a 120V DC motor/generator directly coupled to the back wheel along with a drum brake, and just use the standard disk brakes on the front wheels. By making it 120V motor, you would eliminate the need for a transformer on the onboard charger, and you could charge it off of any outlet in the US, just with rectified AC. The rear motor/generator would also serve to charge the batteries when you let up on the pedal, and without any fancy electronics. It might be a bit of a jerky ride though, so I might have to think about that idea some more. Maybe a solenoid activated coupler from the motor to the wheel would allow it to freewheel, and a two stage break pedal would allow you to kick in the generator on the first stage to slow it down, and second stage would activate the breaks for fast stops. For batteries, I'd put ten large, deep-cycle 12V marine batteries in the front, and I am still deciding whether or not to include space for another passenger or any cargo. That area would be directly behind the driver in any event, and would require extending the length a bit if I went for comfy seating. It would depend on the range that I wanted, I suppose. The body would be designed around that basic structure. If you kept the body profile low enough that you could just climb into the driver's compartment, a rollbar and body cage could be put in just like in the Formula 5000 cars for crash protection, and the body could be made very light. A removable bubble top would protect you from the rain, and still give you a perfect 360 degree view. I worked one summer in a place that made prefabricated, swimming pool body parts, so I know how to make a thin plastic shell for the body that would look great, and fiberglass the back of it. I could experiment with resin and dried bamboo instead of fiberglass, too. It might be lighter and stronger. It's all pretty easy, low-tech stuff really, that anybody could do in a garage. Once the basic commuting vehicle was built, I could experiment with where to put the stereo, the ram air Vortex tube, HV electrostatic generator, plasma fairing, plasma thrusters, nuclear power supply, and eventually, of course... the wings. ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 21:14:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA01276; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:11:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:11:41 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000119162346.017fac1c mail.eden.com> <38861962.226ED52B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.1.32.20000119120610.010a1220 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000120231542.00700a1c mail.eden.com> <6coj8s832oadhp25psqa43jog3em91jges 4ax.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:22:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"aEkW.0.rJ.CyzYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:22:21 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>So just send Scott's meter to Japan, or ask O&M to try the same >>>brand and model (borrow one locally?) >> >>***{Or, as I suggested yesterday, Scott could simply do a run using the >>same kind of meter as Mizuno. --MJ}*** >If your speculation that M. has "tuned" his setup to "match" his meter is >correct, then it would seem easier to detune a tuned setup, than to tune an >untuned one. ***{I think Scott wants to verify or falsify this thing himself, rather than expect Mizuno to do it. Mizuno, after all, is firmly committed to the position that his stuff works. He even has a book out on it. While he may be a paragon of objectivity, eager to shoot himself down in flames, I wouldn't bet the farm on it, and I doubt that Scott would, either. Thus my guess is that Scott would be far more inclined to buy or borrow a Mizuno-type meter and try to tune his cell to it, than to send his Clarke-Hess to Mizuno and see if Mizuno would call a foul on himself. Besides, shipping costs to Japan for Scott's meter would probably be steep, and the danger of getting the thing trashed in transit would be not inconsiderable. Scott could, of course, suggest that Mizuno buy or borrow a Clarke-Hess and put one of his cells on it, but why would Mizuno do that? He is already convinced that he is OU, and is merely trying to figure out how to get Scott to replicate. I doubt that he entertains serious doubts about his interpretation of his results. Since it is Scott who has the doubts, it is incumbent on Scott, not Mizuno, to verify or falsify those doubts. --MJ}*** > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 21:18:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA03167; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:15:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:15:31 -0800 Message-ID: <20000124051529.29079.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:15:29 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Plasmas, was: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"OfZXG.0.Pn.p_zYu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > FAA radars used to have a component called a T/R tube (transmit/receive) > that would alternately connect the receiver or transmitter to the antenna > for primary (1+ megawatt pulse) radar. The tubes worked well enough to > isolate the very sensitive receiver from the transmitted pulse, then > immediately redirect the replies from targets into the receiver. A T/R > tube failure would be very bad news for the receiver. I was going to mention the T/R tube as an example of plasma used to reflect microwave, but I thought it was too specialized to serve much educational purpose. > I do not recall exactly what kind of waveguide magic replaced the T/R tube. I don't know, either. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 21:38:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08599; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:34:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:34:40 -0800 Message-ID: <20000124053435.10544.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:34:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"sdz9n3.0.C62.lH-Yu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: mrand wrote: > > Do you know of ways to tap the plasma created to power electric loads? > Like, One Atmosphere Uniform Glow Discharge Plasma (OAUGDP), from > Jean-Louis' http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp3.htm or the UTK, at > http://plasma.ee.utk.edu/? To start, these plasmas all require a power input to make and sustain them. Any power you get out by directly converting something from the plasma into electricity will be less. The simplest way is to place two electrodes in contact with the plasma. If the plasma is hotter at one of the electrode locations, you get a thermoelectric current between the electrodes. Like solid state thermoelectric convertors, the efficiency is low, because power flows out of the plasma faster by other processes to the cold environment than by electrical energy to the electrodes. Can you be more specific about what you want? ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 22:05:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA17997; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:04:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:04:04 -0800 Message-ID: <021a01bf6630$be3e98e0$5fb47ed8 mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:02:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pWVUg3.0.3P4.Jj-Yu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thermoelectric convertors, the efficiency is low, because power flows out of >the plasma faster by other processes to the cold environment than by >electrical energy to the electrodes. >Can you be more specific about what you want? Ok. At Jean-Louis' http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp3.htm , see the scope pictures at the bottom, the output scope pictures are indicating 4.65kV ac 114ma (phase angle accounted for) to the glow panel that is emitting cold plasma. The input is 30Vdc 1.58A. If these numbers are correct, how can you tap this apparent ou energy? Would the thermoelecteric converter work for a cold plasma? Is there a more efficient method of energy conversion? Regards, Michael Randall >===== >Michael J. Schaffer > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 07:19:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20725; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:17:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:17:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <021a01bf6630$be3e98e0$5fb47ed8 mrand> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:14:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"NEb_r.0.l35.Eq6Zu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>thermoelectric convertors, the efficiency is low, because power flows out >of >>the plasma faster by other processes to the cold environment than by >>electrical energy to the electrodes. > > >>Can you be more specific about what you want? > > >Ok. At Jean-Louis' http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp3.htm , see >the scope pictures at the bottom, the output scope pictures are indicating >4.65kV ac 114ma (phase angle accounted for) to the glow panel that is >emitting cold plasma. The input is 30Vdc 1.58A. If these numbers are >correct, how can you tap this apparent ou energy? Would the thermoelecteric >converter work for a cold plasma? Is there a more efficient method of >energy conversion? ***{Instead of multiplying Jean-Louis' numbers together and declaring that his glow panel is "over unity", I think we wait for him to make such a claim. He has the details, and knows what his numbers mean. We do not. --MJ}*** > > >Regards, Michael Randall > >>===== >>Michael J. Schaffer >> >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >>http://im.yahoo.com >> >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 07:29:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24142; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:26:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:26:52 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: GM Pulls Plug on EV1 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:37:19 -0500 Message-ID: <20000124153719203.AAA269 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"H4Vj_2.0.5v5.yy6Zu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob responds: On the tax credit issue: >I did not exactly follow your reasoning. The tax credit was 5K state and >4K federal, or vice versa. It comes off the top to reduce efffective cost >of the car being leased, and this reduces the payments. The reduced >payments are about $500/mo. OK, I'm still not exactly clear on the Bistromathics of this myself. The way you made it sound, the tax credits were separate from the actual rental plan. Like they would apply to your income tax or something. I'm still not sure what your payments include either, like insurance and plates, etc.. In any case, the numbers still don't add up by a long shot. An arbitrarily priced $50,000 car is rented to you for 36 months at $500 a month. If you take the tax credits off the top, that is still nominally a $41,000 car, and you only give them a total of $18,000 over the three year period. GM doesn't seem to lease any used ones, so I guess they eat them after you give them back. Whether or not you get the tax credit, GM gets it, or you split it, the result is the same. A huge per unit paper loss for GM that comes out of everybody else's pockets in lost tax revenues and reduced social services for a car that you end up not even owning. I also just read that you have to be a homeowner to qualify for the lease. That kind of restriction is unheard of in auto leasing agreements. On the power/charging issues: >The charging system requires AC service of 220V at 40A. They put new >wiring in conduit directly from the box to my garage. It is not practical >for a single phase to deliver the power required (you cannot do 110V at >80A). The battery pack holds 26 kwh of energy. It charges in about 6 >hours, so the charger must deliver around 4 kw to the batteries. The >difference between 4 kw and (220V x 40 A = 8.8kw) must be a combination of >margin, energy conversion efficiency loss, and extra power that is >delivered to cool the batteries during charging. I understand that the >power required for battery cooling is quite significant. There is no 110 >charger available for the NiMH cars (as there was for the first gen cars), >because sometimes just the power load for cooling exceeds what can be >delivered through 110. This is interesting. I don't know that much about the NiMH battery performance characteristics, so the heating thing is new to me. I would suppose that it would also be a problem with a rapid discharge as well, although with adequate venting, it may not be necessary to actually refrigerate them. See my posts on the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube ideas. With normal PbA batteries, there is also the problem of water loss during rapid charge/discharge cycles, but there are special caps that you can get that recombine the H2 and O2 before they exit the battery, and it mitigates the water loss completely. They are a bit pricey, but would be worth getting if you don't like messing with the fluid levels all the time. They might just pay for themselves in just reduced clothing costs, as I don't seem to be able to even look at a battery without getting acid on my clothes. >The AC input to the charger is not directly related to the working voltage >of the battery pack (which is 343 volts, by the way). The charger is >inductively coupled to the car by placing a paddle in the front. The paddle >forms the primary of a transformer, and the secondary coil is in the car. There is one of your losses, and it would be unnecessary if the working voltages were matched. You could just use a regular $5, 220 plug like any other application. I suppose that officially GM is worried about people frying themselves while plugging in their cars, but that danger is the same for everything. > In order to inductively couple, it is obviously AC that is being fed to >the car, not DC. There must be a rectifier in the car to convert back to DC >to charge the batteries. There is another loss, but there is no getting around that one if you use AC to charge. The motor is an AC induction motor, so the car >also has an inverter to convert DC to AC . This is another, that is unnecessary if you use a DC motor/generator. See my proposed design in my previous post. The inverter delivers from >DC-20KHz, depending on speed. The induction motor give very good low end >torque, and is brushless to avoid reliability problems. There are DC brushless motors, although brushes are not that big of a reliability issue. Anybody can change a set of brushes. > -- Bob I fail to see any intelligence in this design, and certainly not a billion dollars worth, but intelligence was never really a part of the equation. My guess is that the billion dollars in development money all came from the taxpayers in the first place, and went directly to the GM owned, subsidiary weapons manufacturers, just like all the fuel cell development money recently did, and most other taxpayer supplied technology development funds. Then our government takes another 3 billion dollars of taxpayer money, and pays GM owned subsidiaries for Apache attack helicopters, HumVs and other assorted GM subsidiary built weapons hardware to give to the Columbian military to kill the few remaining Indians who are not cooperating with the plan to take and pollute their lands, and force them all to work for US manufacturing companies like GM for slave wages. These US weapons give-aways are done all over the world for the same purpose, and they are paid for by you and me. The huge profits from this are mainly shared by the company executives and the majority shareholders. The rest is paid out to key people for their cooperation and their knowing silence. Meanwhile, 30 million people go hungry and without proper housing, education, and medical treatment in this country, and if you have the nerve to peacefully protest this "state of affairs" you risk being taken to a US military base, stripped naked, tied to a chair and beaten. Yes, I've been continuing to read about what really happened in Seattle during the WTO protest. That is what the New World Order is all about. I will never buy a GM product, I will never own their stock, and I will never work for them. Enjoy your trunkspace, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 07:32:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24049; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:26:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:26:30 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:37:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20000124153701609.AAA244 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"FOCuT2.0.gt5.by6Zu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{Instead of multiplying Jean-Louis' numbers together and declaring that >his glow panel is "over unity", I think we wait for him to make such a >claim. He has the details, and knows what his numbers mean. We do not. >--MJ}*** Besides, I thought it was HV pulsed DC, not AC. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 11:11:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09976; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:09:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:09:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000124140747.007a6920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:07:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <20000123034115.11546.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"356EP.0.oR2.bDAZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: >I want to avoid having to learn how to do the metallurgy to avoid large >grains and whatever else (we are not even sure) can go wrong. A metallurgy >research program is way beyond my means. I sympathize with that! However, as Ed Wall said, a little metallurgy goes a long way -- with advice from an expert. For example, Huggins said that small grains are desirable, and he modified a Pd cathode himself to make it more amorphous (small-grained). He did it with a hammer, the same a blacksmith does: wham, wham! (Except I do not think he heated it up first!) That's how you make metal harder. If you want "Type A" from J.M., Martin F. can assist, and I'll sign on too. Ed Storms thinks this may not be worth the effort. He might be able to recommend some other materials closer at hand. And, as Ed Wall says, we are getting some Ti samples from John Dash. If it works for us the way it works for Dash, we will tell the readers here first thing! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 11:24:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13858; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:17:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:17:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000124141621.007a0d00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:16:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Atlanta in a tizzy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EWc8g1.0.PO3.dLAZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Atlanta is in a state of emergency because it rained. Honestly, the least little bit of bad weather and this place collapses! We get these ice storms, pine tree branches snap off, and boom, half the city is without power. Electricity is out for miles around, 300,000 customers are without power, including me, both at my office and at home. I am sick this. Last time it took them four days to fix it, and this time every house on the block has the wires torn out. So I was first in line at Home Depot on Sunday, and I bought a 3 KW emergency generator for $400. I'll probably use it one week per year. The only drawback is that it make a racket. 3 KW is a lot of power! With these compact flourescent light and a couple of space heaters we are snug as a bug in a rug. I wish I could fire up the gas furnace with it (blower and control electronics). The hot water heater works fine. I wish I had a gas cogenerator. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 11:49:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28387; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:47:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:47:32 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:46:39 -1000 Subject: Re: Atlanta in a tizzy From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000124141621.007a0d00 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EJQxS3.0.Tx6.JnAZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm sorry you're having a hard time, but I love hearing this. Go PLUG Power! (up another 50% or so today) ;) on 1/24/00 9:16 AM, Jed Rothwell at JedRothwell infinite-energy.com wrote: > Atlanta is in a state of emergency because it rained. Honestly, the least > little bit of bad weather and this place collapses! We get these ice > storms, pine tree branches snap off, and boom, half the city is without > power. Electricity is out for miles around, 300,000 customers are without > power, including me, both at my office and at home. I am sick this. Last > time it took them four days to fix it, and this time every house on the > block has the wires torn out. So I was first in line at Home Depot on > Sunday, and I bought a 3 KW emergency generator for $400. I'll probably use > it one week per year. The only drawback is that it make a racket. > > 3 KW is a lot of power! With these compact flourescent light and a couple > of space heaters we are snug as a bug in a rug. I wish I could fire up the > gas furnace with it (blower and control electronics). The hot water heater > works fine. I wish I had a gas cogenerator. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 13:24:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01459; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:17:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:17:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000124151321.0190bf20 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:13:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000124140747.007a6920 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20000123034115.11546.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XN-4v3.0.TM.p5CZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:07 PM 1/24/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >For example, Huggins said that >small grains are desirable, and he modified a Pd cathode himself to make it >more amorphous (small-grained). He did it with a hammer, the same a >blacksmith does: wham, wham! (Except I do not think he heated it up first!) >That's how you make metal harder. I talked with Huggins (and Crouch-Baker) at the 1st CF conference in Santa Fe NM (May 1989). He did heat the Pd first. In fact, he arc-melted it on a water-cooled Cu hearth in an Ar atmosphere. He thought the arc-melting got rid of some impurities. After the bead solidified, he hammered it into a "coin shape" and attached a Au lead wire (I think it was Au). Upon our return from that conference we made some Pd cathodes using a nominally identical process. No luck. I've still got the arc-melting apparatus we devised. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 14:33:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04306; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:29:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:29:02 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:34:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Who is Paul Brown? IE Article In-Reply-To: <1nck8sck7t8i9nfo37q7i1vkfv8ht5vb15 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yE_9E3.0.A31.k8DZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reference to the note below, please, Q: Who is Paul Brown? Q: What questions has he been asked? Please and Thank you, John On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:37:07 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: > > >Robin, > > > >Sorry for the tardy reply. > > > >I asked Gene about this. He rarely has time to read Vortex very much. > > > >At present, Paul Brown owes us replies to several of our inquiries. We > >would like to do some testing on one of his nuclear batteries. I think that > >articles are contingent on communication with Paul getting back to normal. > [snip] > Thanks for the reply nevertheless Ed. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 15:25:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28092; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:22:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:22:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:17:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mizuno300 - current meters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0NJWP3.0.ns6.QwDZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Today, I tried a quick test of three meters we've got around here. I just got the cell (full-sized cathode again) running in incandescent mode and set the voltage at 160 and then observed the 3 meters, which were all in series with the cell. Fluke 87 (using averaging mode) 0.77 amps Micronta 22-182 (mental averaging) 0.77 amps Micronta 22-210 (D'Arsenval) 0.81 amps The first Micronta (Radio Shack) is a digital meter. The reading was jumping around from about .74 to .82 amps. I was probably influenced by the Fluke sitting right next to it but the Micronta's average was surely no less than 0.76 nor more than 0.78. The 2nd Micronta is an older D'Arsenval movement meter that has only a 0-10 amp scale for high currents. Thus the reading above was less than 10% of scale which could easily explain its difference from the other two. The needle was quite steady. To explain O&M's results, I'm looking for a meter that reads down around 0.48 amps under these circumstances. Obviously, I've got to keep looking. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 15:29:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA30022; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:25:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:25:14 -0800 Message-ID: <388CDFB2.5DCBCC1E ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:26:46 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Type A" palladium saga References: <20000123034115.11546.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.1.32.20000124151321.0190bf20@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n0tG12.0.0L7.QzDZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually Scott, Bob Huggins arc melted an old crucible which had been used previously for studies involving lithium salts. The arc melting was done to get rid of the lithium. We tried this purification method on a Pd-Li alloy we made at LANL and found that removal of all lithium was impossible. Consequently, we figured this remaining Li made Huggin's samples active. Unfortunately, subsequent studies of Pd-Li alloys produced no active samples. Apparently, more than just having Li present is required. Ed Storms Scott Little wrote: > At 02:07 PM 1/24/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > >For example, Huggins said that > >small grains are desirable, and he modified a Pd cathode himself to make it > >more amorphous (small-grained). He did it with a hammer, the same a > >blacksmith does: wham, wham! (Except I do not think he heated it up first!) > >That's how you make metal harder. > > I talked with Huggins (and Crouch-Baker) at the 1st CF conference in Santa > Fe NM (May 1989). He did heat the Pd first. In fact, he arc-melted it on > a water-cooled Cu hearth in an Ar atmosphere. He thought the arc-melting > got rid of some impurities. After the bead solidified, he hammered it into > a "coin shape" and attached a Au lead wire (I think it was Au). > > Upon our return from that conference we made some Pd cathodes using a > nominally identical process. No luck. I've still got the arc-melting > apparatus we devised. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 15:53:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06210; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:46:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:46:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000124184003.008029b0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:40:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jde8x1.0.yW1.ZHEZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:17 PM 1/24/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >To explain O&M's results, I'm looking for a meter that reads down around >0.48 amps under these circumstances. Obviously, I've got to keep looking. It would neither explain O&M's results, nor your failure to reproduce their results. Perhaps, given the roles of optimum operating point and flow-calorimetric heat transfer in these systems, it might show that you spend much time researching fog, rather than measuring, and reporting on, substance. ;-)X Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 16:11:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16345; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:08:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:08:08 -0800 Message-ID: <00a701bf66c8$306549e0$ed637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: Subject: Re: Who is Paul Brown? IE Article Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:07:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Imv6t2.0.I_3.dbEZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, Dr. Paul Brown is a nuclear physicist who started Nuclear Solutions, LLC. to develop and market, among other things, a means to remediate radioactive waste. This company was bought by International Fission Fuels, Inc. I think the website can answer any questions better than I can: http://www.nucsol.com/ Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John Schnurer To: Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 5:34 PM Subject: Who is Paul Brown? IE Article > > > In reference to the note below, please, > > Q: Who is Paul Brown? > > Q: What questions has he been asked? > > > Please and Thank you, > > John > > On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:37:07 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: > > > > >Robin, > > > > > >Sorry for the tardy reply. > > > > > >I asked Gene about this. He rarely has time to read Vortex very much. > > > > > >At present, Paul Brown owes us replies to several of our inquiries. We > > >would like to do some testing on one of his nuclear batteries. I think that > > >articles are contingent on communication with Paul getting back to normal. > > [snip] > > Thanks for the reply nevertheless Ed. > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 16:42:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27088; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:39:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:39:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:34:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Resent-Message-ID: <"itQB21.0.xc6.R3FZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Today, I tried a quick test of three meters we've got around here. > >I just got the cell (full-sized cathode again) running in incandescent mode >and set the voltage at 160 and then observed the 3 meters, which were all >in series with the cell. > >Fluke 87 (using averaging mode) 0.77 amps >Micronta 22-182 (mental averaging) 0.77 amps >Micronta 22-210 (D'Arsenval) 0.81 amps > >The first Micronta (Radio Shack) is a digital meter. The reading was >jumping around from about .74 to .82 amps. I was probably influenced by >the Fluke sitting right next to it but the Micronta's average was surely no >less than 0.76 nor more than 0.78. > >The 2nd Micronta is an older D'Arsenval movement meter that has only a 0-10 >amp scale for high currents. Thus the reading above was less than 10% of >scale which could easily explain its difference from the other two. The >needle was quite steady. > >To explain O&M's results, I'm looking for a meter that reads down around >0.48 amps under these circumstances. Obviously, I've got to keep looking. ***{As I see it, the under measurement of input power theory is sinking slowly in the west. (Whose theory was that? :-) The reason: it is hard to find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. Neither voltage nor pressure seem to be viable candidates, and I would be surprised if there were an electrolyte impurity that would substantially increase the conductivity of the steam cloak. Since you have done runs that matched the area of Mizuno's cathode, about all I see is to do such a run using a meter like Mizuno's. If that fails, then what? Vary the rpm of the stirrer, I guess, and see if there is a speed that concels out the cathode updraft, thereby generating an excessively rapid cooling rate when the cathode is switched off. But that looks like a bit of a stretch. Thus the cause of Mizuno's numbers, whether error or OU, is looking rather hard to nail down. If you find yourself fighting an urge to roll around on the floor and chew on the carpet, I sympathize. :-) --MJ}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 17:32:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA16491; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:30:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:30:54 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:30:34 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000123211351640.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Resent-Message-ID: <"TSySk.0.b14.EpFZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Mitch writes: >>>***{That's an interesting idea: build a giant tricycle! Here's another: how > Thie exchange between Knuke and Mitch reminds me of the Public TV show on Buckminister Fuller. Has anyone seen a picture of the "car" he built? It had three wheels, two in front and one in back along with great aerodynamics. I liked the factory built round house that he designed too. One nice thing about Buckminister Fuller's designs, they are pubic domain. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 17:52:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24216; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:49:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:49:53 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:49:35 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MfOdB3.0.6w5.-4GZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Meters vary on their readings depending on waveforms. Most are calibrated to read the same on pure DC and Sinewaves (AC mode). On other waveforms the buyer must beware (caveat emptor?). Some more expensive meters read true rms up to a given frequency. Most common Voltmeters are peak reading voltmeters, (calibrated to rms on sinewaves), average reading voltmeters (full or half wave wave rectified calibrated to rms sinewaves also.) You need to determine just what the voltmeters are responding to, and what their frequency response is. Regards Hank On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Scott Little wrote: > Today, I tried a quick test of three meters we've got around here. > > I just got the cell (full-sized cathode again) running in incandescent mode > and set the voltage at 160 and then observed the 3 meters, which were all > in series with the cell. > > Fluke 87 (using averaging mode) 0.77 amps > Micronta 22-182 (mental averaging) 0.77 amps > Micronta 22-210 (D'Arsenval) 0.81 amps > > The first Micronta (Radio Shack) is a digital meter. The reading was > jumping around from about .74 to .82 amps. I was probably influenced by > the Fluke sitting right next to it but the Micronta's average was surely no > less than 0.76 nor more than 0.78. > > The 2nd Micronta is an older D'Arsenval movement meter that has only a 0-10 > amp scale for high currents. Thus the reading above was less than 10% of > scale which could easily explain its difference from the other two. The > needle was quite steady. > > To explain O&M's results, I'm looking for a meter that reads down around > 0.48 amps under these circumstances. Obviously, I've got to keep looking. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 18:00:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27571; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:55:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:55:03 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:54:51 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9Kz2D3.0.dk6.r9GZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell (Jones) The sampling of the voltmeters are done after they are filtered to a very low bandwidth, in general. The data is integrated in the filter before the sampling occurs. Unless you use a very poor homemade system, you could not fall in between the samples. Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 18:02:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA30246; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:58:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:58:42 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:58:00 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Wattmeter Search To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"zs75A.0.WO7.HDGZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 01/23/2000 1:48:47 AM, VCockeram aol.com wrote: <> Congratulations. That sounds like a big step forward. <> That sounds like another step forward, even to someone who doesn't know what an SCR is. <> That sounds like a good precaution, even to someone who doesn't know what an SCR is. What is it? <> After all the work you've put into this experiment, it must be satisfying indeed to watch that performance. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 19:13:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15578; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:10:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:10:52 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle OU? Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:21:12 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125032112406.AAA274 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3ZhNL1.0.Ip3.wGHZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom writes: >Thie exchange between Knuke and Mitch reminds me of the Public TV show on >Buckminister Fuller. Has anyone seen a picture of the "car" he built? It >had three wheels, two in front and one in back along with great >aerodynamics. I liked the factory built round house that he designed too. >One nice thing about Buckminister Fuller's designs, they are pubic domain. I haven't seen any photos of the car, but I have seen some variations on the house. Back in the mid 70's the Fort Wayne Art College built fairly big one, but I haven't been back there in so many years that I don't know if it is still there. I've run across some websites that are dedicated to his work, I'll have to look a little deeper to see if there are any car photos. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 19:55:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11247; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:53:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:53:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:50:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Mizuno's Excess Heat Explained? Resent-Message-ID: <"fN4Ty.0.bl2.9vHZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, consider this: what if the magnetic field of Mizuno's stirrer is the source of his excess heat? Clearly, if the teflon coated bar magnet inside the beaker is of exactly the same strength as the one mounted on the shaft of the stirrer motor, then the flux lines exiting the north pole of one magnet will curve quickly over and link up with those emerging from the south pole of the other, with the result that there will be no external magnetic field in the solution that is capable of affecting the cathode. That is the proper way to design a magnetic stirrer. But if Mizuno has several different stirrers, and if he is in the habit of using the stir bar from one with the motor of another, then a condition could easily arise where one of the two bar magnets is much stronger than the other. In that case, there will be many lines of flux left over when all of those from the smaller of the two magnets have been linked to corresponding lines in the larger magnet. Result: those left over lines of flux will emerge from the north pole of the larger magnet, pass through the surrounding space, and link up with lines from the south pole of the larger magnet. In the process, many of them will pass through the cathode. As they do so, they will be oriented horizontally. Since the magnet which sources those lines of flux rotates, the flux lines will also rotate. Since the cathode is in the center of the cell, they will rotate about the center of the cathode. Result: (1) One end of a rotating flux line will push electrons in the cathode up, and the other end will push them down. Thus there will be an alternating current situation induced in the cathode, in which current flows up on the left side of the cathode and down on the right, then down on the left side and up on the right, then up on the left side and down on the right, etc. The effect of the flowing current will, naturally, be to generate heat in the cathode. (2)There will be a tendency for any magnetic particles (e.g., of iron) that lie along the axis of rotation of the stir bar to rotate with it. Thus if there are impurities in the tungsten cathode that are magnetic, then those atoms will rotate with the magnetic field, producing heat. That will produce hot spots in the tungsten, and, when those spots are near the surface, shards of metal will be spat out, leaving microcraters that have magnetic materials--e.g., iron--near their centers. This is exactly as observed by Mizuno. By this theory, the "over unity" portion of the heat comes from the action of the stirrer motor. To test for this effect, simply remove the stir bar from inside the beaker, disconnect the electric connections to the cathode and anode, and run the stirrer motor. Without the oppositely oriented bar magnet in the bottom of the beaker to quench the magnetic field, the field lines from the bar magnet mounted on the stirrer motor will reach up into the beaker, and heat the cathode. You should be able to measure the amount of such heating by your standard techniques. What do you think? --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 20:05:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15606; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:04:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:04:18 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno's Excess Heat Explained? Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:03:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <318q8s0br82r39n8kafpf06m4dcootdjb5 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA15570 Resent-Message-ID: <"JfbEn3.0.mp3.13IZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:50:01 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >What do you think? I think the total power delivered to stirrer motors is probably on the order of 20W, and as such could not explain the excess, even if all of it ended up in the cathode. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 20:09:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17551; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:07:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:07:48 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Trivial stirrer possibility Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:07:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA17481 Resent-Message-ID: <"bcPPP1.0.5I4.I6IZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some magnetic stirrers come with built in hot plates. I'm almost ashamed to suggest this, but is it possible that M's hot plate gets turned on with his stirrer? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 20:22:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22785; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:20:16 -0800 Message-ID: <009101bf66eb$6b7d8880$31b67ed8 mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:19:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JWaNS1.0.xZ5._HIZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good point. Please disregard my comment "apparent ou" and replace with "interesting scope pictures." No, as the scope pictures also indicate, the circuit is HV AC. Regards, Michael >Mitch writes: >>***{Instead of multiplying Jean-Louis' numbers together and declaring that >>his glow panel is "over unity", I think we wait for him to make such a >>claim. He has the details, and knows what his numbers mean. We do not. >>--MJ}*** > >Besides, I thought it was HV pulsed DC, not AC. > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 21:49:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16462; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:45:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:45:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <318q8s0br82r39n8kafpf06m4dcootdjb5 4ax.com> References: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:41:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno's Excess Heat Explained? Resent-Message-ID: <"pm1AX2.0.214.nXJZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:50:01 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>What do you think? >I think the total power delivered to stirrer motors is probably on the order >of 20W, and as such could not explain the excess, even if all of it ended up >in the cathode. ***{There are many models of stirrer available, at various wattages. The first one I looked at is a lab quality variable speed stirrer on pg. 1051 of my Sargent-Welch catalog. It pulls 50 watts when used with the correct stir bar, but who knows what it pulls when used with a different--and perhaps heavier and more strongly magnetic--stir bar? And who knows what Mizuno is using? (Not me! :-) Thus I think this is a possibility worth considering. --MJ}*** > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 23:13:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA08540; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:12:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:12:47 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <1c.75bc8b.25bea6c7 aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 02:12:07 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Wattmeter Search To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"NYJ_b1.0.M52.kpKZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/24/00 6:01:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, Tstolper aol.com writes: > In a message dated 01/23/2000 1:48:47 AM, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > < power supply.>> > > Congratulations. That sounds like a big step forward. Could not have done it without the help received here on Vortex. > < SCR's in the Watlow) on the feedback lines from the glow discharge tube, but > I solved them with the addition of capacitors, RC networks and a Corcom EMI > filter.>> > That sounds like another step forward, even to someone who doesn't know what > an SCR is. My try at an explanation below...read on... > > < input and output sides of the power controller to protect .... > That sounds like a good precaution, even to someone who doesn't know what an > SCR is. What is it? An SCR (Silicon Controlled Rectifier) is a diode device with a control gate. The diode will not conduct until it sees a pulse on the gate line while the diode is forward biased. The diode stays in conduction until it is reverse biased, then it will not conduct until the gate is given another turn on pulse while it is forward biased. So basically, it is a diode that wont conduct either forward or reverse until the control gate is pulsed while it is forward biased. For voltage control the gate is pulsed at some time during the positive half of the AC cycle. If pulsed at the start of the positive cycle it conducts the entire positive cycle only and shuts off until the gate is again pulsed and the diode is again forward biased. A timing circuit is used to delay the turn on pulse to the gate at some time after the AC cycle goes positive. If the delay is 90 degrees you get approximately 50% voltage. Another SCR is used to do the same thing for the negative half of the AC cycle. Together they provide an AC voltage that is only part of the 60 Hz sine wave. Output waveform looks roughly like this: --|\--|/--|\--|/--- and so on The turn on of the diode is fast, about 0.1 milliseconds rise time and tends to overshoot the peak value of the sine wave. This is what produces the RF noise. Early model lamp dimmers were very noisy and produced all kinds of racket into the power lines. Some cheapo models still do! By careful selection and the trial and error method (by me with the help of Scott Little and Fred Sparber with RC time constants) I was able to get the noise down to a level where it didn't affect the feedback lines to the Texmate meter. I was looking at an 80 volt overshoot above the peak value of the 120 VAC 60 Hz sine wave at first but now have that down to around 5 volts. Also used as a crowbar in DC power supplies. If an overvoltage condition is detected in a power supply the error circuits pulse the SCR and it slams a short across the supply output tripping the input circuit breaker. They are very fast acting and are widely used in computer power supplies. An SCR that will crowbar a 2000 ampere 1.25 volt mainframe power supply has to be seen to be believed...and they do work, I have seen them in action. (Mainframes circa 1966-1999) Another neat circuit to cobble up for about 5 bucks is a sound modulated incandescent lamp controller. All you need a small audio transformer, a 10k pot,a 1N50 diode and a small 5 amp SCR. Input audio to the transformer, 1/2 wave rectify the output and feed the gate of the SCR. It will flash an incandescent lamp to the music. Add a 10K pot on the audio input to set the triggering level. All at Radio Shack. > > < setting and watch it hold .... > > After all the work you've put into this experiment, it must be satisfying > indeed to watch that performance. It is indeed Tom. Now I can set the power input level and even take a head call and be assured that when I return it's still locked in. I ran a test tonight at a 20 torr H2 fill and the power was steady as a rock all through the 1.5 hour run. I use a new tube for each run because it gets plated with W from the electrodes and changes the tube characteristics so much it's hard to keep the glow stable. But tonight just for grins, I tried reusing the tube just to see if it were possible. The tube was at room temperature and filled to 800 torr at start. I pumped down to 20 torr over 20 minutes or so then slowly increased power from a 1 watt start up to the previous 20 watts. I was gratified to see the temperature stabilize within 1.5 C of the first run! Amazing what this controller will do. I will let the same tube sit overnight and try the same thing in the morning. If IT shows a similar result then I will know for sure that I now have a decently workable experiment without the cockpit overload I have been struggling with. > > Tom Stolper > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 01:20:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA26237; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:19:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:19:38 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:30:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125093014171.AAA268 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"MryAK.0.pP6.ggMZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Good point. Please disregard my comment "apparent ou" and replace with >"interesting scope pictures." No, as the scope pictures also indicate, the >circuit is HV AC. >Regards, Michael They are indeed interesting, but one of us is still confused about the circuit. If the photos that you are referring to are at the address below, then perhaps you are confusing the sound wave photos with the scope photos. The scope photos show HV pulsed DC, unless I'm mistaken. http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp3.htm I hope I'm not, because I thought I was understanding this for once. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 08:07:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23232; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:04:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:04:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000125110057.007aadd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:00:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dqbF42.0.wg5.RcSZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >it is hard to >find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune >his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. The cathode area changes during the experiment. Usually about half the cathode breaks off. The edges wear off first, leaving a rounded, battered foil -- sort of circular or oblong. I think the least amount of damage is where the lead wire is attached to the cathode. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 08:18:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28167; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:16:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:16:00 -0800 Message-ID: <004701bf674f$631103c0$ca637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000125110057.007aadd0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:15:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"d6XOO2.0.1u6._mSZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems that if the cathode area is changing so much and the apparent excess energy effect remains present during the deterioration, then the current density at the cathode is not a critical factor. Ed Wall ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >it is hard to > >find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune > >his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. > > The cathode area changes during the experiment. Usually about half the > cathode breaks off. The edges wear off first, leaving a rounded, battered > foil -- sort of circular or oblong. I think the least amount of damage is > where the lead wire is attached to the cathode. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 10:54:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02835; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:32:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:32:24 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125110057.007aadd0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:28:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Resent-Message-ID: <"rL9oW.0.Di.smUZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>it is hard to >>find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune >>his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. > >The cathode area changes during the experiment. Usually about half the >cathode breaks off. The edges wear off first, leaving a rounded, battered >foil -- sort of circular or oblong. I think the least amount of damage is >where the lead wire is attached to the cathode. ***{Good point. It seems very clear that a substantial change in the area of the cathode would bring about a substantial change in the frequency of the associated current spikes. Thus if Mizuno continues to get OU numbers both before and after such an event, I would take that as a refutation of the tuned artifact theory. Do you know for a fact that Mizuno gets OU numbers both before and after a large chunk of the cathode breaks off? --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-digest-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 11:04:28 2000 Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07510 for billb eskimo.com; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:04:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:04:23 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 10:32:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02835; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:32:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:32:24 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125110057.007aadd0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000124171755.0190fb64 mail.eden.com> Old-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:28:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Resent-Message-ID: <"rL9oW.0.Di.smUZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: Already on the subscriber list X-Diagnostic: X-Envelope-To: vortex-digest Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>it is hard to >>find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune >>his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. > >The cathode area changes during the experiment. Usually about half the >cathode breaks off. The edges wear off first, leaving a rounded, battered >foil -- sort of circular or oblong. I think the least amount of damage is >where the lead wire is attached to the cathode. ***{Good point. It seems very clear that a substantial change in the area of the cathode would bring about a substantial change in the frequency of the associated current spikes. Thus if Mizuno continues to get OU numbers both before and after such an event, I would take that as a refutation of the tuned artifact theory. Do you know for a fact that Mizuno gets OU numbers both before and after a large chunk of the cathode breaks off? --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 12:01:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17247; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:56:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:56:35 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: H2K: SCR's (was Wattmeter Search) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:07:07 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125200707484.AAA250 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"mWNve.0.0D4.m_VZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, I fried a couple of SCR's (at $75 a pop) building a speed controller for my DC motor device before I finally found someone that supplied a MOSFET controller in my needed VI range. The cost was just a bit higher, but there was no noise, and much smoother performance in general over the SCR's. Just for future reference. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 13:45:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10080; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:35:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:35:13 -0800 (PST) MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:34:36 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:24:44 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:25:37 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Who is Paul Brown? IE Article In-reply-to: To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:34:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2382ZYHLNOAW3 X400-MTS-identifier: [;63436152100002/4422266 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"EPfAF.0.MT2.BSXZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John, Have you gotten on the internet yet? Just in case you haven't: A recent "Wired" article. TOXIC WASTE Nuking Nukes The US Department of Energy predicts that we'll spend $150 billion to dispose of radioactive leftovers generated during four decades of Cold War weapons production. Paul Brown, a physics PhD from Boise, Idaho, says he can do it for less than a quarter of that price - without burying hazardous waste. How? Give the nukes a taste of their own medicine: Blast them with radiation. If this sounds simple, it is. Beam an element with a stream of alpha particles and it turns into another element. This happens routinely in laboratory "atom smashers," where, for example, beryllium is commonly converted into carbon, with heat as a by-product. Brown showed that when nuclear waste is showered with gamma rays, it's transformed into compounds that become safe within a few months, rather than thousands of years. "It's textbook radiochemistry," he says. But after searching the annals of atomic literature, he couldn't find anyone who had proposed the idea. Bob Park of the American Institute of Physics, who routinely debunks fringe science, says Brown's scheme is not far-fetched. John Schiffer, senior scientist and an experimental nuclear physicist at Argonne National Laboratories, confirms that gamma radiation "could convert long-lived radioactive isotopes into shorter-lived ones." The approach is not without its challenges, however. Schiffer complains that gamma rays would result in an enormous amount of excess heat. Adds Gary Doolen, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratories, "It's also very expensive to generate high-energy gamma rays." But Brown has thought about all this already. He says the excess heat could generate electricity - more than enough to run the whole operation. The inventor adds that a typical neutron-beam research project costs $1.3 billion, while he hopes to build an entire plant for just $5 million. With a patent for his idea pending, Brown formed Nuclear Solutions, a company that will soon run tests at the University of Illinois or MIT. And, since the Department of Energy already has spent $2.5 billion on "innovative waste-cleanup technologies," he's negotiating with the agency to give him his meager millions to build a pilot plant. "Some waste products have half-lives of 24,000 years," says Brown. "There's no such thing as a steel drum you can bury that will remain safe for that length of time." Processing nuclear waste with gamma rays would be a miracle tool for regulatory agencies doing radioactive cleanup. Brown's ultimate vision is of nuclear-power stations that neutralize their waste as soon as it's created. "I'm not an antinuke activist," he says. "I'm a realist. Obviously, we need a method to remediate nuclear waste - and ours really works." - Charles Platt Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 14:21:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08998; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:12:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:12:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:06:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Resent-Message-ID: <"D3S9U2.0.UC2.4_XZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell (Jones) > The sampling of the voltmeters are done after they are filtered to a >very low bandwidth, in general. The data is integrated in the filter >before the sampling occurs. Unless you use a very poor homemade system, >you could not fall in between the samples. ***{I am far from an expert on power meters or filters, but you raise an interesting point. As I understand it, a low-pass filter deletes all frequencies above the cutoff frequency. Hence meters that use them are guaranteed to miss spikes that occur at a rate above the cutoff frequency, right? If so, then it would seem that this approach does not solve the problem: it merely converts it into a slightly different form. A meter that samples the raw input is susceptible to artifacts that happen to be tuned to the sampling frequency or its harmonics; and a meter that samples after the input has gone through a low pass filter simply ignores spikes that occur above the cutoff frequency. If this reasoning is correct, then I don't see how you can say that one type of meter is better or worse than the other: both are vulnerable to spikes; they are simply vulnerable in different ways. So what am I missing? :-) --MJ}*** > >Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 14:53:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26979; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:51:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:51:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000125175050.007a86b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:50:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Portable generator performance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bp7fR3.0.Jb6.fZYZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This 3 KW portable emergency generator or mine goes through gasoline like nobody's business. This must be the most expensive electricity on earth. It does not seem to pollute so much, I am happy to report. It says on the machine that it meets the California standards for small machinery. It does not make a lot of smoke or smell. It takes a 6 HP motor to generate "3000 continuous watts, 3750 surge watts." 6 HP = 4.5 KW. I'll bet the motor is only 15% efficient, so we are tossing out maybe ~27 KW of hot air to bring 3 KW into the house. A dumb way to heat things, but good for light, microwave ovens, the computer, etc. When I get a chance, I am going to figure out the energy balance based on kilograms of gasoline consumed. As I recall the energy content of gasoline is ~42 MJ/kg. The specifications say, "4 gallon tank provides 11.5 hours of run time at 1/2 load and 7.2 hours of run time at full load." I think that is an exaggeration, or else I am running the thing about full load. I do not think it is lasting 7.2 hours, but I have not been keeping careful track of it, I admit. (We do not run it continously, and we do not wait for it to run empty before filling it.) You can see a picture of the machine on the web at: http://www.devap.com/generators.htm Press "select a generator" and enter model CDGT3010. There is nothing like a city-wide power failure to bring home the importance of energy and the potential importance of cold fusion! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 14:59:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28318; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:55:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:55:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000125175505.007a6580 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:55:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yE-gg2.0.Ow6.gdYZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [This may be the second copy of this message.] Mitchell Jones wrote: >it is hard to >find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune >his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. The cathode area changes during the experiment. Usually about half the cathode breaks off. The edges wear off first, leaving a rounded, battered foil -- sort of circular or oblong. I think the least amount of damage is where the lead wire is attached to the cathode. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 15:04:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24227; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:01:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:01:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388E2C07.B1673227 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:04:39 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Portable generator performance References: <3.0.6.32.20000125175050.007a86b0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"19AsR1.0.Rw5.NjYZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > This 3 KW portable emergency generator or mine goes through gasoline like > nobody's business. This must be the most expensive electricity on earth. It > does not seem to pollute so much, I am happy to report. It says on the > machine that it meets the California standards for small machinery. It does > not make a lot of smoke or smell. > > It takes a 6 HP motor to generate "3000 continuous watts, 3750 surge > watts." 6 HP = 4.5 KW. I'll bet the motor is only 15% efficient, so we are > tossing out maybe ~27 KW of hot air to bring 3 KW into the house. A dumb > way to heat things, but good for light, microwave ovens, the computer, etc. > > When I get a chance, I am going to figure out the energy balance based on > kilograms of gasoline consumed. As I recall the energy content of gasoline > is ~42 MJ/kg. The specifications say, "4 gallon tank provides 11.5 hours of > run time at 1/2 load and 7.2 hours of run time at full load." I think that > is an exaggeration, or else I am running the thing about full load. I do > not think it is lasting 7.2 hours, but I have not been keeping careful > track of it, I admit. (We do not run it continously, and we do not wait for > it to run empty before filling it.) > > You can see a picture of the machine on the web at: > > http://www.devap.com/generators.htm > > Press "select a generator" and enter model CDGT3010. > > There is nothing like a city-wide power failure to bring home the > importance of energy and the potential importance of cold fusion! If you ever have a reason to buy another, consider the brand Onan. They cost more but are worth it in terms of efficiency and longevity. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 15:19:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27164; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:16:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:16:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000125181622.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:16:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Portable generator performance In-Reply-To: <388E2C07.B1673227 bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000125175050.007a86b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1GJBd2.0.Me6.exYZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >If you ever have a reason to buy another, consider the brand >Onan. They cost more but are worth it in terms of efficiency and >longevity. For my application I think price is the only issue. I hate noisy inefficient machines, but why spend extra money on a machine I only need maybe four days per year. (The fewer the better!) Longevity is hardly an issue because I intend to drain the tank and put it in mothballs most of the time. The machine did not come with a manual (they are sending me one), but apparently there are recommendations for mothballing it. You are supposed to put some kind of preservative or cleaning fluid in the gas tank, and you are supposed to run it periodically -- once a year I guess -- because there is a magnet which might become demagnitized otherwise. It runs pretty rough at times, and it conked out twice. I think it likes regular gas better than hi-test. Hi-test was all they had yesterday. There were no gas stations open for miles around Chamblee. It is best to read the instructions before cranking up one of these things. It saves a lot of time and trial and error, and maybe keeps you from blowing up yourself. Unfortunately I have no manual, but there are cute pictures which you can decode with effort: press this, push that, wait five minutes . . . Don't fill it with gas while it is running. Don't spill gas on the hot exhaust pipe. (Good thinking!) It would be a lot easier if they would communicate in langage instead of pictures, but manufacturers nowadays want to sell to English, Spanish, French and other speakers and they do not want to change faceplates. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 15:27:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28824; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:25:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:25:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:29:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Lead on Cathode..Re: Mizuno300 - current meters In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125110057.007aadd0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mZe_D2.0.E27.Q3ZZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If there is a lead on the cathode... does it get 'attacked' in the operation of the experiemnt? What is the lead made of...? On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >it is hard to > >find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune > >his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. > > The cathode area changes during the experiment. Usually about half the > cathode breaks off. The edges wear off first, leaving a rounded, battered > foil -- sort of circular or oblong. I think the least amount of damage is > where the lead wire is attached to the cathode. > > - Jed > i From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 15:54:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22333; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:50:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:50:52 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:55:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000124140747.007a6920 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZL50H2.0.dS5.RRZZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The process described below, striking the work with a hammer is sometimes called "Work Hardening" . I AM ASTOUNDED !!!! That ANYONE would think of such a terribler thing.... It is hard enough to get a job in the first place, much less making the work harder!!! Terbl Terbl Terbl On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > >I want to avoid having to learn how to do the metallurgy to avoid large > >grains and whatever else (we are not even sure) can go wrong. A metallurgy > >research program is way beyond my means. > > I sympathize with that! However, as Ed Wall said, a little metallurgy goes > a long way -- with advice from an expert. For example, Huggins said that > small grains are desirable, and he modified a Pd cathode himself to make it > more amorphous (small-grained). He did it with a hammer, the same a > blacksmith does: wham, wham! (Except I do not think he heated it up first!) > That's how you make metal harder. > > If you want "Type A" from J.M., Martin F. can assist, and I'll sign on too. > Ed Storms thinks this may not be worth the effort. He might be able to > recommend some other materials closer at hand. And, as Ed Wall says, we are > getting some Ti samples from John Dash. If it works for us the way it works > for Dash, we will tell the readers here first thing! > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 18:01:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA16358; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:56:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:56:30 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125175505.007a6580 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:10:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Resent-Message-ID: <"iYOK93.0.J_3.9HbZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >[This may be the second copy of this message.] > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>it is hard to >>find a variable, other than cathode area, that would permit Mizuno to tune >>his cell to his meter's sampling frequency. > >The cathode area changes during the experiment. Usually about half the >cathode breaks off. The edges wear off first, leaving a rounded, battered >foil -- sort of circular or oblong. I think the least amount of damage is >where the lead wire is attached to the cathode. ***{I responded to this hours ago, the first time I received it. If you did not receive that response, let me know, and I will send you a copy via private e-mail. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 19:24:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10874; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:21:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:21:10 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf67ac$81ff6ee0$bb56ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:54:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"B501m3.0.pf2.bWcZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Mitchell (Jones) > > The sampling of the voltmeters are done after they are filtered to a > >very low bandwidth, in general. The data is integrated in the filter > >before the sampling occurs. Unless you use a very poor homemade system, > >you could not fall in between the samples. > > ***{I am far from an expert on power meters or filters, but you raise an > interesting point. As I understand it, a low-pass filter deletes all > frequencies above the cutoff frequency. This is a misunderstanding of what goes on in a low pass filter, and the nature of "spikes". I haven't been following this discussion very closely, so I may be a bit off the thread. If the question is bursts of high frequency AC power superimposed on a DC current through the cell, then a low pass filter will attenuate it by bypassing the high frequency energy to ground, away from the measuring instrument. If the question is DC spikes superimposed on a DC average, then a low pass filter will integrate the energy in the pulse. The high frequency AC components that would be seen in a Fourier analysis of that pulse are absorbed, but the DC energy is not, it is spread out in time and will be seen by a suitable measuring instrument. Thus a debate on missing the energy in 'DC' spikes by a sampling process is answered by a low pass filter. The caveat here is that averaging a unidirectional pulse does not represent its energy capacity for producing heat. For this it is necessary to calculate the RMS value of the pulse, for which one must know accurately the waveshape. Instruments which perform RMS measurements generally have limitations in the shape (peak/average) factor and bandwidth. There are instruments which address this problem. Some are made by Clarke-Hess, another is a handheld digital oscilloscope, THS720P, made by Tektronix. This will simultaneously sample a voltage and current at 500 MHz with an effective bandwidth of 100 MHz. The sample values I*V are multiplied and summed on the fly. One sweep acquires 2500 points and the instantaneous power for each sample period. The sum is the average power over the period. Hence meters that use them are > guaranteed to miss spikes that occur at a rate above the cutoff frequency, > right? If so, then it would seem that this approach does not solve the > problem: it merely converts it into a slightly different form. A meter that > samples the raw input is susceptible to artifacts that happen to be tuned > to the sampling frequency or its harmonics; and a meter that samples after > the input has gone through a low pass filter simply ignores spikes that > occur above the cutoff frequency. If this reasoning is correct, then I > don't see how you can say that one type of meter is better or worse than > the other: both are vulnerable to spikes; they are simply vulnerable in > different ways. So what am I missing? :-) --MJ}*** See above. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 19:36:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16142; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:33:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:33:48 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <7c.e5fba4.25bfc4f5 aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:33:09 EST Subject: Sutton Book on Cold Fusion To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA16095 Resent-Message-ID: <"089Id2.0.5y3.RicZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few months ago, somebody mentioned a book by Anthony Sutton, called COLD FUSION: SECRET ENERGY REVOLUTION, from FTIR Publications in Sacramento, CA. It wasn't listed at the time either at bn.com (the Barnes & Noble site) or at Amazon.com, but when I looked today, here's what they had on it: Barnes & Nobel had the following info: <> Amazon.com gave Ron Black as a co-author and the following info: <> Has anyone seen this book? Is it really only forty pages long? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 19:40:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16089; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:33:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:33:43 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:33:04 EST Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"BEtOk.0.Ex3.NicZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 01/07/2000 11:09:26 PM, Ed Storms wrote, in reply to my question, "Ed, what radioactive isotopes other than tritium have been found? Some references for those? (By the way, I do think that the tritium is real.)": <> Well, Ed, I have looked at the first reference now (Bush & Eagleton). They wrote that their supposed strontium isotope would be highly significant if independently confirmed. As fas as I know, it never was. It looks like another dead end to me. Judging by what's happened over the last five years, all allegedly radioactive isotopes other than tritium have also been dead ends, which may be a principal reason that the EPRI Research Program on Deuterated Metals didn't make any headway. Bush's Ni/H2O cell (the one that he showed Huizenga) was an open highway, but Bush seems to have chosen not to go any further down it, and not to publish exactly how he got as far as he did. In the INFINITE ENERGY material about that cell, for example, the electrolyte wasn't given, nor was there ever any followup on how Bush improved the performance of the cell. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 21:33:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26598; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:31:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:31:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000125233240.00710ad4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:32:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Lead on Cathode..Re: Mizuno300 - current meters In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000125110057.007aadd0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QfWV12.0.TV6.qQeZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:29 PM 1/25/00 -0500, John Schnurer wrote: > > If there is a lead on the cathode... does it get 'attacked' in the >operation of the experiemnt? Not normally. The W lead wire is encased in thick teflon heat shrink tubing. For very high power runs, I have to augment the teflon with a ceramic outer covering to get it to hold up. Pictures and discussion of these issues can be found at: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run1.html and http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run2/run2.html > > What is the lead made of...? Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 06:24:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07427; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:20:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:20:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126092023.007d85c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:20:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000124140747.007a6920 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mZqyv2.0.yp1.2BmZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > The process described below, striking the work with a hammer is >sometimes called "Work Hardening" . > > I AM ASTOUNDED !!!! > That ANYONE would think of such a terribler thing.... > It is hard enough to get a job in the first place, much less >making the work harder!!! Oh yeah? Well if it is so hard to get that kind of work, why are there so many people named "Smith"? Seems to me it must of been the most common job around, even more than "Farmer" or "English" (presumably given to English teachers). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 06:33:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10620; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:27:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:27:40 -0800 Message-ID: <030601bf6808$bd680080$369cf1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: Subject: plasma discharge reaction Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:22:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0303_01BF6811.1979AB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"svrb1.0.mb2.SHmZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0303_01BF6811.1979AB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Peter van Noorden pjvannrd knmg.nl to mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com Wednesday,26 January Subject: glow discharge reaction. To the members of the vortexgroup Since half a year I am doing experiments with radioactive = thalliumchloride in a so called plasma discharge system. The purpose of these experiments is to see if the T 1/2 of radioactive = elements can be influenced by the plasma discharge reaction. I use radioactive thallium because it is chemically allied to potassium = and because it is easy available to me ( I work on a nuclear medicine = department) The kathode is a W rod ( 4mm diameter) and the anode a platinum sheet( = 10 cm2)=20 Electrolyte:0.5 M K2Co3 in pure H2O. The voltage can be changed between 0 and 300 volts and the Amperage = between 0-17A. Activity is counted in a NaI welldetector. Here follows a discription of one of the many experiments. I start with 25 MBq Tl201-Cl in 1 liter 0.5M K2CO3.( kathode 0 MBq) Then I electrolyse during 15 hours with a current of 4 A ( low voltage) = and of course the electrode becomes active ( 10.56MBq decaycorrected) The electolyte is of course less active ( nearly 14.5Bq) The active kathode is then subjected to the plasmadischarge reaction = during 1 minute ( 250 volts 2 Ampere). The activity of the kathode was measured: 0.29 MBq( less than 3 percent = of the original activity) The activity of the electrolyte decreased from nearly 14.5MBq to 7.2MBq. First it looks as if radioactivity has been remediated in a efficient = manner but=20 when I looked closer there was some tungsten?debris on the bottom of the = reaction vessel which was very radioactive. It contained nearly all the activity that was first thought to be = remediated. The exact amount of activity in the debris is not easy to measure = because the low energy radiation of the radioactive thallium is = partially absorbed by the debris particles but it looks as if no = radioactivity has been remediated. These results could mean that K+ and perhaps also H+ ,which normally = concentrate on a kathode , are very quickly removed from it during the = glow -dischargereaction. If there is excess heat production then the energyproducing reaction = does not seem to take place on the kathodesurface ( because the anions = are removed very quickly from it in less than a minute). More likely it = will take place in the plasma surrounding the kathode. Could it be that the the light water plasma discharge reactions are = "hydrino" forming reactions according to the theory of R. Mills? Greetings P.J van Noorden ------=_NextPart_000_0303_01BF6811.1979AB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Peter van Noorden    pjvannrd@knmg.nl
to mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com=
Wednesday,26 January
Subject: glow discharge reaction.
 
 
To the members of the vortexgroup
Since half a year I am doing experiments with = radioactive=20 thalliumchloride in a so called plasma discharge system.
The purpose of these experiments is to see if the T = 1/2 of=20 radioactive elements can be influenced by the plasma discharge=20 reaction.
I use radioactive thallium because it is chemically = allied to=20 potassium and because it is easy available to me ( I work on a nuclear = medicine=20 department)
The kathode is a W rod ( 4mm diameter) and the anode = a=20 platinum sheet( 10 cm2)
Electrolyte:0.5 M K2Co3 in pure H2O.
The voltage can be changed between 0 and 300 = volts and the Amperage between 0-17A.
Activity is counted in a NaI = welldetector.
Here follows a discription of one of the many=20 experiments.
I start with 25 MBq Tl201-Cl in 1 liter 0.5M K2CO3.( = kathode 0=20 MBq)
Then I electrolyse during 15 hours with a current of = 4=20 A ( low voltage) and of course the electrode becomes active ( = 10.56MBq=20 decaycorrected)
The electolyte is of course less active ( nearly=20 14.5Bq)
The active kathode is then subjected to the = plasmadischarge=20 reaction during 1 minute ( 250 volts 2 Ampere).
The activity of the kathode was measured: 0.29 MBq( = less than=20 3 percent of the original activity)
The activity of the electrolyte decreased from=20 nearly 14.5MBq to 7.2MBq.
First it looks as if radioactivity has been = remediated in=20 a efficient manner but
when I looked closer there was some tungsten?debris = on the=20 bottom of the reaction vessel which was very radioactive.
It contained nearly all the activity that was first = thought to=20 be remediated.
The exact amount of activity in the debris is not = easy to=20 measure because the low energy radiation of the radioactive thallium is=20 partially absorbed by the debris particles but it looks as if no=20 radioactivity has been remediated.
These results could mean that K+ and perhaps = also H+=20 ,which normally concentrate on a kathode , are very quickly  = removed from=20 it during the glow -dischargereaction.
If there is excess heat production then the=20 energyproducing reaction does not seem to take place on the = kathodesurface (=20 because the anions are removed very quickly from it in less than a = minute). More=20 likely it will take place in the plasma surrounding the = kathode.
Could it be that the the light water plasma = discharge=20 reactions are "hydrino" forming reactions according to the theory of R.=20 Mills?
 
Greetings
P.J van Noorden
------=_NextPart_000_0303_01BF6811.1979AB00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 06:36:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13200; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:34:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:34:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126093406.007ab100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:34:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Miles wins Truffle Award Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3VRzH2.0.8E3.tNmZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am not sure of the significance of this, but I just received a photograph from Linda Miles to accompany the upcoming article by Dr. Melvin Miles. The photo shows Dr. Miles holding an award in the form of a gift wrapped box, and the caption says: "The Truffle Award presented to Mel Miles at the Asti Workshop in Italy in October 1999. (Yes, that is a real truffle!) Dr. Miles was the first American to receive this award." I gather the award has something to do with cold fusion, but then, what doesn't? Whatever it is I am sure we are all gratified on Mel's behalf. We need all the awards we can get in this business. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 06:56:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21979; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:52:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:52:20 -0800 Message-ID: <002901bf680c$de419740$e0637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:51:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"dbg9f1.0.LN5.aemZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper wrote: > > Well, Ed [Storms], I have looked at the first reference now (Bush & Eagleton). They > wrote that their supposed strontium isotope would be highly significant if > independently confirmed. As fas as I know, it never was. It looks like > another dead end to me. Has anyone even tried? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 07:09:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27543; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:06:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:06:21 -0800 Message-ID: <388F0DC7.6276207C ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:07:55 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some comments about cold fusion References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"L98GC1.0.Hk6.jrmZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest a difference exists between whether data are real and whether data can be duplicated. Some observations, such as creation of short-lived radioactivity when none existed before, are so unlikely to be caused by error or a prosaic process that they need to be given great weight in spite of the acknowledged difficulty in their duplication. Such provisional acceptance should stimulate a renewed search for a duplication rather than rejection because none is easily found. As a practical matter, few people who have had success making excess energy have been equipped to measure radioactivity and did not look for it. Therefore, we really do not know how reproducible this effect might be. However, search for nonradioactive reaction products is underway in several laboratories and successful results are occasionally published. As for the studies by Bush, this work was funded by private sources which has not continued. In addition, Eagleton has retired in poor health and Bush has personal interests outside of CF, as we all have. Without financial support, the small studies sooner or later stop no matter how much success they have experienced in the past. Success in this field does not focus the resources needed for more success. Ed Storms Tstolper aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/07/2000 11:09:26 PM, Ed Storms wrote, in reply to my > question, "Ed, what radioactive isotopes other than tritium have been found? > Some references for those? (By the way, I do think that the tritium is > real.)": > > < > Bush, R. and R. Eagleton, "Evidence for Electrolytically Induced Transmutation > and Radioactivity Correlated with Excess Heat in Electrolytic Cells with Light > Water Rubidium Salt Electrolytes", Trans. Fusion Technol. 26, #4T (1994) 344. > > Passell, T. O., "Charting the Way Forward in the EPRI Research Program on > Deuterated Metals", Proceedings of the 5th International Conference on Cold > Fusion, Monte-Carlo, Monaco April 9 - 13, 1995, IMRA Europe, Sophia Antipolis > Cedex, France (1995), p. 603.>> > > Well, Ed, I have looked at the first reference now (Bush & Eagleton). They > wrote that their supposed strontium isotope would be highly significant if > independently confirmed. As fas as I know, it never was. It looks like > another dead end to me. > > Judging by what's happened over the last five years, all allegedly > radioactive isotopes other than tritium have also been dead ends, which may > be a principal reason that the EPRI Research Program on Deuterated Metals > didn't make any headway. > > Bush's Ni/H2O cell (the one that he showed Huizenga) was an open highway, but > Bush seems to have chosen not to go any further down it, and not to publish > exactly how he got as far as he did. In the INFINITE ENERGY material about > that cell, for example, the electrolyte wasn't given, nor was there ever any > followup on how Bush improved the performance of the cell. > > Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 07:32:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04620; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:27:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:27:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <030601bf6808$bd680080$369cf1c3 vannoorden> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:24:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"P6Ped.0.181.P9nZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Peter van Noorden pjvannrd knmg.nl to mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com Wednesday,26 January Subject: glow discharge reaction. To the members of the vortexgroup Since half a year I am doing experiments with radioactive thalliumchloride in a so called plasma discharge system. The purpose of these experiments is to see if the T 1/2 of radioactive elements can be influenced by the plasma discharge reaction. I use radioactive thallium because it is chemically allied to potassium and because it is easy available to me ( I work on a nuclear medicine department) The kathode is a W rod ( 4mm diameter) and the anode a platinum sheet( 10 cm2) Electrolyte: 0.5 M K2Co3 in pure H2O. The voltage can be changed between 0 and 300 volts and the Amperage between 0-17A. Activity is counted in a NaI welldetector. Here follows a discription of one of the many experiments. I start with 25 MBq Tl201-Cl in 1 liter 0.5M K2CO3. (kathode 0 MBq) Then I electrolyse during 15 hours with a current of 4 A ( low voltage) and of course the electrode becomes active ( 10.56MBq decay corrected) The electolyte is of course less active (nearly 14.5Bq) The active kathode is then subjected to the plasma discharge reaction during 1 minute (250 volts 2 Ampere). The activity of the kathode was measured: 0.29 MBq( less than 3 percent of the original activity) The activity of the electrolyte decreased from nearly 14.5MBq to 7.2MBq. First it looks as if radioactivity has been remediated in a efficient manner but when I looked closer there was some tungsten?debris on the bottom of the reaction vessel which was very radioactive. It contained nearly all the activity that was first thought to be remediated. The exact amount of activity in the debris is not easy to measure because the low energy radiation of the radioactive thallium is partially absorbed by the debris particles but it looks as if no radioactivity has been remediated. These results could mean that K+ and perhaps also H+ ,which normally concentrate on a kathode , are very quickly removed from it during the glow -discharge reaction. If there is excess heat production then the energy producing reaction does not seem to take place on the kathode surface (because the anions are removed very quickly from it in less than a minute). More likely it will take place in the plasma surrounding the kathode. Could it be that the the light water plasma discharge reactions are "hydrino" forming reactions according to the theory of R. Mills? ***{Before speculating on that, you first need to do some calorimetry in order to verify that excess heat is present. As Scott Little and others have demonstrated, it is far from easy to get excess heat out of these types of cells. As for your speculation itself, it is hard to believe that any sort of efficient hydrogen loading could take place under these sorts of violent conditions, where the surface of the cathode is being rapidly eroded away, though there may be some residual loading in the tungsten granules that accumulate on the bottom of the beaker. If a CF reaction is occurring, that would be a worthwhile place to look. One could hypothesize that the CF reaction is what erodes the cathode surface, of course, but that seems to have been refuted: cathode erosion seems to occur whether the run is "over unity" or not. --Mitchell Jones}*** Greetings P.J van Noorden From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 07:36:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07346; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:32:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:32:15 -0800 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:31:52 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:20:41 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:27:30 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000126092023.007d85c0 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:31:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2394ZYHMF1B98 X400-MTS-identifier: [;25130162100002/4424241 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"Odfj5.0.io1._DnZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Hey we got this RV sales place out our way, guys name is Tom Raper. I wonder what his family did? >Oh yeah? Well if it is so hard to get that kind of work, why are there so >many people named "Smith"? Seems to me it must of been the most common job >around, even more than "Farmer" or "English" (presumably given to English >teachers). >- Jed Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 07:53:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16036; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:50:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:50:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126105012.007aa790 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:50:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Portable generator performance In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125175050.007a86b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wUiH03.0.Jw3.DVnZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, I was not fair to the DeVilbiss Air Power Company. It seems this electric generator does live up to the specifications. I topped the four gallon tank off just after 10:00 last night, and attached two 1500 watt space heaters to it, a full 3000 watt load. It ran until around 5:30 this morning, ~7.2 hours. Gasoline yields 43.8 MJ/kg according to an Internet source; estimates range from 42 to 44 MJ. Four gallons of gasoline weighs 12 kg, yielding 526 MJ. The motor generates 6 HP of torque, which equals 4.5 kW. The generator outputs 3 kW, or exactly two-thirds of the motor power -- a suspiciously round number. 7.2 hours of operations at 3 kW = 21.6 kWh = 78 MJ. So, 15% of the original thermal energy is delivered as electricity. Actually, that isn't bad for a small ICE. The installed base of large-scale industrial power generators is roughly 36% efficient ("Utility Current Technologies"), and the latest, best models are roughly 42% efficient, according to EPRI. In a DOE/EPRI flowchart Conventional Utility Current Technologies are represented as follows: Fossil fuels averaged 3.4 (Thermal process 0.36 -- 36% efficient) AC electrical grid 1.2 (Transmission 0.92) AC electricity delivered 1.1 (Motor drive 0.90) Factory power 1.0 - Hydrogen Program Plan, US DoE, NREL, p. A-12 The CDGT3010 emergency power generator output would be expressed as a process that converts 6.7 units of energy to 1.0 units delivered AC electricity: Gasoline 6.7 (Thermal process 0.22) Mechanical power 1.5 (Generator 0.66) Delivered electricity 1.0 You see why centralized electric power generation has its advantages, despite the fact that has left me in the dark for three, going on four days. Regular gasoline costs about $1.10 per gallon around here, so this 21.6 kWh cost me 20.4 cents per kWh, which is 4 or 5 times more than the power company charges. You get a visceral sense of energy use when you turn on your microwave oven and you hear the noise of the generator outside adjust for the new load. I wonder how the thing handles the transition so smoothly. It must have a capacitor or something. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 08:20:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27780; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:18:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:18:32 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Portable generator performance Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: <20000126162910578.AAA246 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"GMGPp.0.-n6.NvnZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >You see why centralized electric power generation has its advantages, >despite the fact that has left me in the dark for three, going on four days. > >Regular gasoline costs about $1.10 per gallon around here, so this 21.6 kWh >cost me 20.4 cents per kWh, which is 4 or 5 times more than the power >company charges. > >You get a visceral sense of energy use when you turn on your microwave oven >and you hear the noise of the generator outside adjust for the new load. I >wonder how the thing handles the transition so smoothly. It must have a >capacitor or something. > >- Jed Nice work on the calcs, Jed. As for the smoothness of the load change, the microwave has the capacitor in it to get it started, and the generator would have a voltage regulator. The engine would have a mechanical fuel regulator that dumps more fuel into the engine as the load increased to maintain the engine speed. Look at the brightness of the coils in the heaters, and they will noticably dim for a second or less when you start the microwave, which is around 700 - 900 watts normally. The heaters don't have any capacitors on them. Any incandescent bulbs will do the same. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 08:28:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31924; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:27:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:27:11 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:37:47 -0500 Message-ID: <20000126163747046.AAA262 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"FbNrs2.0.go7.U1oZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill writes: >Hey we got this RV sales place out our way, guys name is Tom Raper. > >I wonder what his family did? For that matter, what would a well of roth be? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 08:55:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09065; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:48:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:48:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126114805.0079a100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:48:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: <20000126163747046.AAA262 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4onc3.0.ZD2.WLoZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >For that matter, what would a well of roth be? Red, red-brown color. Middle English roth = modern Eng. red. cf. place name Rothwell, a town south east of Leeds in West Yorkshire, England, pop. 20,000. Listed in the Doomsday Book (1086). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 09:10:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16117; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:07:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:07:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126120204.007e1a00 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:02:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: thought for the day Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TTsB33.0.gx3.ddoZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "I am busy just now again on electromagnetism, and think I have got hold of a good thing, but can't say. It may be a weed instead of a fish that, after all my labor, I may at last pull up." Michael Faraday From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 09:27:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23261; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:24:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:24:46 -0800 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:24:25 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:13:02 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:22:26 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000126114805.0079a100 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:24:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2387ZYHMHQ8VG X400-MTS-identifier: [;52422162100002/4424644 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"UBuzi2.0.Ah5.RtoZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Ok, I'll bite, what is the "Doomsday Book (1086)"? >Listed in the Doomsday Book (1086) Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 09:45:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30833; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:40:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:40:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:36:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction In-Reply-To: <030601bf6808$bd680080$369cf1c3 vannoorden> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"c67fQ2.0.fX7.d6pZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:22 PM 1/26/00 +0100, Peter van Noorden wrote: Since half a year I am doing experiments with radioactive thalliumchloride in a so called plasma discharge system.... Looks like good work, Peter. I, too, have observed the W debris in the bottom of the cell. In fact, I took a microphotograph of it which you can see at: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html It appears that the electrical discharges actually melt small areas of the W surface and small blobs of W metal are thus removed. In your case, the deposited Tl would likely be incorporated into these molten blobs, forming an alloy possibly. You mentioned a low energy radiation, what is the energy of the radiation you are monitoring? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 10:24:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10845; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:21:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:21:16 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:31:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20000126183154218.AAA257 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"cZlTE2.0.Nf2.SipZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >Red, red-brown color. Middle English roth = modern Eng. red. cf. place name >Rothwell, a town south east of Leeds in West Yorkshire, England, pop. >20,000. Listed in the Doomsday Book (1086). > >- Jed That's interesting. In addition, both the words, roth and well, are derivative from the German, rot and quell, or red and well in modern English. A red or reddish brown color in the local well water may have been from a high iron oxide content, and hence the name. You seem to be well read on this. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 10:32:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15314; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:30:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:30:37 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126133006.007db4d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:30:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Work hardening The "Type A" palladium saga In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000126114805.0079a100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"29kk31.0.Al3.DrpZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Briggs asks: >Ok, I'll bite, what is the "Doomsday Book (1086)"? The first comprehensive European census after the fall of the Roman Empire. It was commissioned by William the Conqueror ("King Conq" to his friends) in 1086 to find out how much property and how many taxpayers he bagged in 1066. No European or U.S. survey as detailed was made until the 19th century, but I'll bet the Chinese had them in 2000 BC. The Domesday Book, in two volumes ("Greatest Hits" and "More of . . ."), is kept at the Public Record Office in Chancery Lane, London, where it is on view to the public, but it is not yet available on Internet as far as I know, perhaps in order to protect the taxpayer's privacy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 11:39:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10416; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:37:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:37:30 -0800 Message-ID: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:31:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"E3dOU.0.aY2.vpqZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 6:36 PM Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction > At 03:22 PM 1/26/00 +0100, Peter van Noorden wrote: > > Scott Little wrote: > > You mentioned a low energy radiation, what is the energy of the radiation> you are monitoring? > Scott, >>The low energy radiation is coming from the radioactive thallium 201 which I introduced into the cell. The main energy lies around 84 KeV. Peter van Noorden pjvannrd knmg.nl From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:04:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17578; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:57:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:57:00 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:55:31 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125175050.007a86b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Portable generator performance Resent-Message-ID: <"Dd7GV.0.ZI4.B6rZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I visited the website of the group at the college in western Washington that built the car that runs on the midnight sun fuel cell. I chuckled at it's efficiency, 7%. I suppose that the efficiency of 15% is about right. The motor is probably operating at 20% and another 5% is lost in the generator. However Jed's portable generator is probably operating at a similar efficiency when it is supplying less than a full load. When I hook up a generator, I always tell customers that generating your own electricity is a great way to appreciate what a bargin purchasing it from the utility is. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:27:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29657; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:25:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:25:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000126142148.01e214e0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:21:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction In-Reply-To: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> References: <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dpw_v1.0.GF7.9XrZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:31 PM 1/26/00 +0100, Peter van Noorden wrote: >The low energy radiation is coming from the radioactive thallium 201 which >I introduced into the cell. >The main energy lies around 84 KeV. For photons of this energy travelling thru W, I find a mass absorption coefficient of approximately 7 cm^2/gm. The W swarf particles I have observed are about 10 microns in diameter. Consider a particle of Tl "hiding" in the center of a W blob 10 microns in diameter. The 84 keV radiation has to come out thru 5 microns of W metal. Since the density is 19.3 gm/cm^2, the resulting attenuation is given by: exp(-mu*rho*t) where mu is 7 cm^2/gm, rho is 19.3 gm/cm^3, and t is 5 microns, which is 5E-4 cm. The result is 0.935...or only a 6 or 7% attenuation in the 84 keV radiation intensity. This is a very rough estimate. For a uniform "alloy" of W and Tl, I think we would see less overall attenuation of the 84 keV radiation, provided the W particles were 10 micron or less in size. Does this fit at all with your observations? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:35:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01640; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:33:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:33:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> References: <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:27:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"_Dgwb2.0.TP.nerZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Scott Little >To: ; >Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 6:36 PM >Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction > > >> At 03:22 PM 1/26/00 +0100, Peter van Noorden wrote: >> >> Scott Little wrote: >> >> You mentioned a low energy radiation, what is the energy of the radiation> >you are monitoring? >> >Scott, >>>The low energy radiation is coming from the radioactive thallium 201 which >I introduced into the cell. >The main energy lies around 84 KeV. ***{By my calculation, it ought to be much higher: 81Tl201 --> 80Hg201 200.97075 = 200.9703 + Q, and so Q = .0004489 amu = .42 MeV What am I missing? --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Peter van Noorden >pjvannrd knmg.nl From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:45:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06333; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:43:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:43:33 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:48:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: plasma COOL STUFF In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000126142148.01e214e0 mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"s4hze1.0.tY1.qnrZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: COOL STUFF See flag, below: On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Scott Little wrote: > At 08:31 PM 1/26/00 +0100, Peter van Noorden wrote: > > >The low energy radiation is coming from the radioactive thallium 201 which > >I introduced into the cell. > >The main energy lies around 84 KeV. > > > For photons of this energy travelling thru W, I find a mass absorption > coefficient of approximately 7 cm^2/gm. The W swarf particles I have Swarf! > observed are about 10 microns in diameter. Consider a particle of Tl > "hiding" in the center of a W blob 10 microns in diameter. The 84 keV > radiation has to come out thru 5 microns of W metal. Since the density is > 19.3 gm/cm^2, the resulting attenuation is given by: > > exp(-mu*rho*t) > > where mu is 7 cm^2/gm, rho is 19.3 gm/cm^3, and t is 5 microns, which is > 5E-4 cm. The result is 0.935...or only a 6 or 7% attenuation in the 84 keV > radiation intensity. > > This is a very rough estimate. For a uniform "alloy" of W and Tl, I think > we would see less overall attenuation of the 84 keV radiation, provided the > W particles were 10 micron or less in size. > > Does this fit at all with your observations? > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 13:03:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14082; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:01:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:01:31 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:01:21 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GN5QX1.0.mR3.d2sZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch The charge carried by the hi-frequency spikes is stored in the capacitors of the filter, and then measured by the meter. Nothing is lost here. Hank On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Mitchell (Jones) > > The sampling of the voltmeters are done after they are filtered to a > >very low bandwidth, in general. The data is integrated in the filter > >before the sampling occurs. Unless you use a very poor homemade system, > >you could not fall in between the samples. > > ***{I am far from an expert on power meters or filters, but you raise an > interesting point. As I understand it, a low-pass filter deletes all > frequencies above the cutoff frequency. Hence meters that use them are > guaranteed to miss spikes that occur at a rate above the cutoff frequency, > right? If so, then it would seem that this approach does not solve the > problem: it merely converts it into a slightly different form. A meter that > samples the raw input is susceptible to artifacts that happen to be tuned > to the sampling frequency or its harmonics; and a meter that samples after > the input has gone through a low pass filter simply ignores spikes that > occur above the cutoff frequency. If this reasoning is correct, then I > don't see how you can say that one type of meter is better or worse than > the other: both are vulnerable to spikes; they are simply vulnerable in > different ways. So what am I missing? :-) --MJ}*** > > > > >Hank > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 13:07:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16634; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:05:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:05:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Portable generator performance In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000125175050.007a86b0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Vp_P82.0.j34.A6sZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Most people I have heard about report that cheap MG sets have a very short life. It will be interesting to here your experiences. Try and keep a record of time of use, oil and gas consumption . Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 14:07:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08620; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:04:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:04:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:00:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction In-Reply-To: References: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ta_Us.0.c62.ozsZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:27 PM 1/26/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{By my calculation, it ought to be much higher: >81Tl201 --> 80Hg201 >200.97075 = 200.9703 + Q, and so Q = .0004489 amu = .42 MeV You got that about right. My reference gives Q=.488 MeV for this electron-capture decay. But you cannot expect all of that energy to come out as a single photon. My reference (Table of Isotopes, 7th edition) shows a decay scheme that involves the emission of gammas at various energies (in keV): 167.4 135.34 32.19 1.58 Also you can expect Hg K x-rays every time, which are mostly ~71 keV. Frankly, I do not know how energy is conserved in such a decay. Peter, where does the 84 keV come from? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 14:25:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15923; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:21:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:21:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126171957.007dc100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:19:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Portable generator performance In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000125175050.007a86b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zZNwz.0.iu3.oDtZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank Scudder wrote: > Most people I have heard about report that cheap MG sets have a >very short life. It will be interesting to here your experiences. Try and >keep a record of time of use, oil and gas consumption . Actually, despite the low price, this looks like reasonably quality machinery to me. It compares favorably to some belching, backfiring chainsaws I have been around, which scared the pants off me. It has a Tecumseh engine, which seems to be a popular type. It will be difficult for me to judge wear and tear and life because I only plan to use the thing a few days per year -- and not at all if I can help it. I could run a stress test but the neighbors would complain. Right now there are no neighbors. The whole of Atlanta has decamped for somewhere else. It is eerie, like a science-fiction movie. Every hotel was filled by 9:30 AM Sunday. The economics & design parameters of a machine intended for occasional use are different from those of a machine you plan to use frequently. I would not want this noisy machine for an RV, which is the market Onan addresses with a nice looking product. (Terry Blanton's recommendation: http://www.onanrv.com/index.htm) Sometimes, cheaper is better. You could build an automobile engine with the kinds of gears and bearings used in a $500,000 windmill generator, and the car would last a hundred years, like a Rolls-Royce. But who needs a car that would last that long? Safety and road standards and the changing needs of passengers make a 30-year-old automobile obsolete. People who design machines have to balance quality and economics, and the trade-off is different for different applications. An occasional-use computer printer can be as slow as you like, as long as it is reliable and cheap. The price was $440, by the way, not $400. Cheaper than three nights at a hotel! We're using this with a small, 800 W Japanese electric "kotatsu." That is a table with a heater underneath, a blanket extending around the sides, and the tabletop placed over the blanket. This is the traditional way to keep warm in Japan, along with hot baths and hot sake. It is incredibly efficient. In an old-fashioned country house, a kotatsu is a half-mat (3' x 3') hole in the floor with a charcoal heater below and a table on top. It is the only comfortable place in the house, which features paper walls and frozen toothpaste in the bathroom, as my mother noted on a visit to Japan. It is pretty darned uncomfortable in January. The reason we did not abandon our house this week, while all around us the weaklings & wusses fled for hotels and waited two hours to be served at restaurants, is because we are used to this. We are tough! And we are not as young as we used to be, so we sprang for a generator and to hell with indoor camping and the macho routine. (He says with a cold coming on.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 14:35:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23955; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:34:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:34:06 -0800 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:33:49 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:21:56 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:17:04 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Portable generator performance In-reply-to: To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:33:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2395ZYHMP3CXK X400-MTS-identifier: [;94337162100002/4426041 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"8rkkQ3.0.Bs5.SPtZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, This summer I will be installing a generator system in a shed linked to my house. It is a water cooled 7.5KW diesel generator. It is overkill for my own needs in my current house, but I wanted a diesel for other reasons as well. In a few years I hope to have a house built out in the country, so I sized it for that. Also I wanted to play around with biodiesel fuel production. Diesel engine generators cost about twice as much as gasoline powered. But, they are a lot more fuel efficient, you can get non-road use diesel fuel at about half the price of gasoline, and they last forever. All things considered this is the long term cheaper way to go. Also being water cooled adds another potential level of fuel efficiency. When you consider that about a third of the energy in the fuel is lost as heat in the exhaust, and another third is lost as engine heat, just to get a final third out as mechanical energy. Then out of that final third you lose a bunch more converting it to electricity, about one sixth. Now during the winter some of that lost heat energy can be recovered. The easiest way is to install a set of bypass valves so that you can re-route the water coolant lines from your outside generator, to an inside radiator. This will triple your fuel efficiency, one sixth plus one third equals one half or 50%. If you really want to squeeze some more efficiency out of it you could rig a combination muffler-heat exchanger to use most of the other third of wasted heat. But then you would also have to build in a CO & CO2 monitoring system to automatically dump it outside in case of a leak. Or you could just have it kill the generator until you can manually bypass the heat exchanger. Even during the summer when you don't want to take advantage of the waste heat the diesel is still much more cost efficient to operate, other than the original cost. The diesel is almost twice as efficient as a gasoline genset. Then when you can get non road use fuel at about half price you end up with electricity at one fourth the cost of a gasoline powered genset. Then if your reeeeally stingy, you could go down to the local burger joint and beg or buy their used french fry oil. Process it with a little lye and alcohol to make biodiesel fuel for about 5 to 10 cents per gallon. http://www.veggievan.org/ Then in a few years when the GEET people get their act together, who knows how cheap it will be to generate electricity. Then 10 to 20 years down the line fuel cell systems ought to be cheap enough to be practical. Of course if you CF & OU guys can get your act together I wouldn't have to mess around with fuel based systems. You could also look into converting your gasoline powered genset to use natural gas. It will run cheaper, cleaner and last longer. Plus you don't have to keep filling the gas tank. You do lose a little on the maximum power output. These people have conversion kits. http://www.uscarb.qpg.com/ Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 14:38:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04423; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:31:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:31:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000126173032.007d5dc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:30:32 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Georgia Power persecuting me?!? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"73Koo1.0.-41.oMtZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My wife reports that our street was swarming with power company trucks. They fixed every house but ours, and then before she realized what was happening they pulled out, leaving us stranded in the cold. Do you suppose they have it in for me because someone high up in Georgia Power is trying to prevent cold fusion research!?! It's a conspiracy! Wow! Either that or they left for coffee and fast food, and they will be back to fix our house later on. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 15:03:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02991; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:59:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:59:40 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:58:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA02897 Resent-Message-ID: <"O0chH3.0.ek.SntZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:00:40 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >out as a single photon. My reference (Table of Isotopes, 7th edition) >shows a decay scheme that involves the emission of gammas at various >energies (in keV): > >167.4 Interestingly, this is almost exactly 2 x 84 keV. >135.34 >32.19 >1.58 > >Also you can expect Hg K x-rays every time, which are mostly ~71 keV. >Frankly, I do not know how energy is conserved in such a decay. [snip] Isn't that why neutrinos were "invented"? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 15:29:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09074; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:26:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:26:37 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Georgia Power persecuting me?!? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:24:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20000126173032.007d5dc0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000126173032.007d5dc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id PAA09001 Resent-Message-ID: <"P1Reg2.0.XD2.gAuZu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:30:32 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >My wife reports that our street was swarming with power company trucks. >They fixed every house but ours, and then before she realized what was >happening they pulled out, leaving us stranded in the cold. Do you suppose >they have it in for me because someone high up in Georgia Power is trying >to prevent cold fusion research!?! It's a conspiracy! Wow! > >Either that or they left for coffee and fast food, and they will be back to >fix our house later on. > >- Jed What could possibly have gone wrong that required each house be visited? The only thing I can think of is that everyone else was absent, so the power company had to visit each house to turn off the mains supply at each residence before restoring power on the mains. Otherwise they run the risk that appliances etc. will start up in homes where nobody is home, when power is restored. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 18:15:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18367; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:13:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:13:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c mail.eden.com> References: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:50:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"MDVR5.0.rU4.CdwZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 02:27 PM 1/26/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{By my calculation, it ought to be much higher: >>81Tl201 --> 80Hg201 >>200.97075 = 200.9703 + Q, and so Q = .0004489 amu = .42 MeV > >You got that about right. My reference gives Q=.488 MeV for this >electron-capture decay. But you cannot expect all of that energy to come >out as a single photon. My reference (Table of Isotopes, 7th edition) >shows a decay scheme that involves the emission of gammas at various >energies (in keV): > >167.4 >135.34 >32.19 >1.58 > >Also you can expect Hg K x-rays every time, which are mostly ~71 keV. ***{Logically, that would be Tl K x-rays, since the nucleus is Tl until the K-shell electron is captured, and the x-ray is emitted as a prelude to that happening. --MJ}*** >Frankly, I do not know how energy is conserved in such a decay. ***{Are you talking about the K-capture? Unless 71 keV is less than the energy difference between the K-shell and the surface of the nucleus, I don't see the problem. Are you worried about the .7875 MeV mass difference between a proton and a neutron? Let's see, the electron has a rest mass of .512 MeV, so .277 MeV is still needed. I would assume that is potential energy given up by the electron after it penetrates the nucleus, as it approaches the proton of its choice. --MJ}*** > >Peter, where does the 84 keV come from? > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 18:15:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18395; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:13:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:13:41 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:08:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Portable generator performance Resent-Message-ID: <"FMbBu3.0.qU4.CdwZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >If you really want to squeeze some more efficiency out of it you could rig >a combination muffler-heat exchanger to use most of the other third of >wasted heat. But then you would also have to build in a CO & CO2 >monitoring system to automatically dump it outside in case of a leak. ***{The CO2 is non-toxic, and thus poses a problem only if your house is airtight, which is unlikely. And diesel engines, practically speaking, do not produce CO: the burn is virtually 100% complete due to the vastly highter compression ratios and consequent uniform ignition temperatures throughout the cylinder. The CO output is so low, in fact, that diesels are certified by the Bureau of Mines as safe to use underground--e.g., in coal mines. Thus your muffler-heat exchanger idea is perfectly safe, with or without a CO monitoring system. --MJ}*** Or >you could just have it kill the generator until you can manually bypass the >heat exchanger. > >Even during the summer when you don't want to take advantage of the waste >heat the diesel is still much more cost efficient to operate, other than >the original cost. ***{You could rig a heat exchanger to run a water heater. That would be useful 12 months a year. --MJ}*** The diesel is almost twice as efficient as a gasoline >genset. Then when you can get non road use fuel at about half price you >end up with electricity at one fourth the cost of a gasoline powered >genset. > >Then if your reeeeally stingy, you could go down to the local burger joint >and beg or buy their used french fry oil. Process it with a little lye and >alcohol to make biodiesel fuel for about 5 to 10 cents per gallon. > > http://www.veggievan.org/ > >Then in a few years when the GEET people get their act together, who knows >how cheap it will be to generate electricity. Then 10 to 20 years down the >line fuel cell systems ought to be cheap enough to be practical. Of course >if you CF & OU guys can get your act together I wouldn't have to mess >around with fuel based systems. > >You could also look into converting your gasoline powered genset to use >natural gas. It will run cheaper, cleaner and last longer. Plus you don't >have to keep filling the gas tank. You do lose a little on the maximum >power output. > >These people have conversion kits. > > http://www.uscarb.qpg.com/ > >Bill >webriggs concentric.net >briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 18:38:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29024; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:36:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:36:31 -0800 From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <388FB043.2496 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:41:07 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: storms2 ix.netcom.com Subject: c/fAR Energy Development Institute? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"N8-0m1.0.N57.lywZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 26, 2000 Vortex, For quite a while now, Nova Resources Group, Inc. has been running full page ads in Infinite Energy for their products. More recently, it has used its ad page to announcie an enterprise "c/FAR Energy Development Institute" in which MvKubre, Passell, and Storms are introduced as Institute Founders. All three are prominent in the cold fusion scene. And particulary, Dr. Edmund Storms has been an active participant in this Vortex discussion group. I was wondering if Dr. Storms could elaborate for Vortex some details of the Institute effort so that we would be more impelled to send in the funds to get the detailed instructions promised. When I saw the first ad, I called NRG and was told the details were not yet ready. I notice the latest ad space has been halved by NRG. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 19:20:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18987; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:16:39 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Portable generator performance Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:05:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20000127030549468.AAA232 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"kEKot3.0.be4.MYxZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, I just noticed this feature at USA Today. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wenerg1.htm The energy index predicts actual short term energy consumption, and compares it to the average consumption in the same timeframe of other years. It looks like the Mississipi delta region will have the energy utility services much more severely stressed in the next few days compared to the rest of the nation. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 21:14:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30069; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:11:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:11:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000126231306.007148c0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:13:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c mail.eden.com> <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5VwqK3.0.lL7.PEzZu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:50 PM 1/26/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>Also you can expect Hg K x-rays every time, which are mostly ~71 keV. > >***{Logically, that would be Tl K x-rays, since the nucleus is Tl until the >K-shell electron is captured, and the x-ray is emitted as a prelude to that >happening. --MJ}*** Electron capture does create a vacancy in the original atom's K electron shell but the atom changes into the decay product before the vacancy can be filled from the outer shells. Thus the emitted x-rays are always those of the decay product atom, not the original atom. For example, Fe-55 emits Mn x-rays and Cd-109 emits Ag x-rays. These are popular radioisotope x-ray sources used in portable XRF analyzers. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 23:34:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10148; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:32:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:32:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01BF6855.9F7FE090 istf-1-72.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Off Topic RE: Portable generator performance Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:32:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF6855.9F7FE090" Resent-Message-ID: <"8Pf_52.0.OU2.3I_Zu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF6855.9F7FE090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't help it... Fred Sparber seems to be dozing, so I'll ask: is that Onan generator self-exciting? (their web page headline declares: (Onan, the quiet one" ;-) Dan Quickert ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF6855.9F7FE090 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiIHAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAqAEAAAEAAAARAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAADAHE6AAAAAB4A9l8BAAAAFAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AAgH3XwEAAABFAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1v LmNvbQBTTVRQAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AAAAAAwD9XwEAAAADAP9fAAAAAAIB9g8BAAAA BAAAAAAAAAK4VgEEgAEALQAAAE9mZiBUb3BpYyBSRTogUG9ydGFibGUgZ2VuZXJhdG9yIHBlcmZv cm1hbmNlAB0QAQWAAwAOAAAA0AcBABoAFwAgAB0AAwBJAQEggAMADgAAANAHAQAaABcAAQAUAAMA IQEBCYABACEAAABDMjQ5ODcxRDg2RDREMzExOTk3Qzk0REFBMzAwMDAwMAD3BgEDkAYAXAQAACIA AAALAAIAAQAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAcFaf qphovwEeAHAAAQAAAC0AAABPZmYgVG9waWMgUkU6IFBvcnRhYmxlIGdlbmVyYXRvciBwZXJmb3Jt YW5jZQAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABv2iYqpodh0nH1IYR05l8lNqjAAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABT TVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFwAAAGRlcXVpY2tlcnRAdWNkYXZpcy5lZHUAAAMABhDWeHpQAwAHEI4A AAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABJQ0FOVEhFTFBJVEZSRURTUEFSQkVSU0VFTVNUT0JFRE9aSU5HLFNPSUxM QVNLOklTVEhBVE9OQU5HRU5FUkFUT1JTRUxGLUVYQ0lUSU5HPyhUSEVJUldFQlBBR0VIRUFETElO AAAAAAIBCRABAAAAFgEAABIBAABZAQAATFpGdQH5ytB3AAoBAwH3IAKkA+MCAGOCaArAc2V0MCAH E00CgH0KgAjIIDsJbzLMNTUCgAqBdWMAUAsDBmMAQQtgbmcxMDNCMwumIEkgYwBwJwEFQGhlbHAg aXRyLhXAIEYJcQYACrFiJQSQIA+wZW0EIHRvQiAWkCBkb3oLgGdGLBbAF0BJJ2wDIGH4c2s6CqIK hAqABAAXINMPgAVAT24DkWcJ8ASQBxngBbEPsGxmLWV4VmMVoBfBPxjaKBnAZcJpBcB3ZWIgCrAa YPEVQWFkbAuAF3EFkAtg4QlwczogKBoSF/AcsTggcXUIkAVAAiBlIqkRQC0pGNpEA5FRH5C0Y2sE kHQY1BBxACKAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAHgBCEAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAMAgBD/////QAAHMEDd sFCUaL8BQAAIMEDdsFCUaL8BCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAGACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAADzFQAA HgADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAFAAAAOC4wNAAAAAADAASACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAGgAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAAeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAA AB4ACIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAAB AAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAADAA00/TcAAG7L ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF6855.9F7FE090-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 06:07:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA11222; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:05:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:05:49 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38905F15.25BDE69D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:07:01 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction References: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"0hWf4.0.Bl2.y25au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: ***{By my calculation, it ought to be much higher: 81Tl201 --> 80Hg201 200.97075 = 200.9703 + Q, and so Q = .0004489 amu = .42 MeV Scott Little wrote; You got that about right. My reference gives Q=.488 MeV for this electron-capture decay. But you cannot expect all of that energy to come out as a single photon. My reference (Table of Isotopes, 7th edition) shows a decay scheme that involves the emission of gammas at various energies (in keV): 167.4 135.34 32.19 1.58 Also you can expect Hg K x-rays every time, which are mostly ~71 keV. Mitchell Jones wrote: ***{Logically, that would be Tl K x-rays, since the nucleus is Tl until the K-shell electron is captured, and the x-ray is emitted as a prelude to that happening. --MJ}*** Scott Little wrote; Frankly, I do not know how energy is conserved in such a decay. Mitchell Jones wrote: ***{Are you talking about the K-capture? Unless 71 keV is less than the energy difference between the K-shell and the surface of the nucleus, I don't see the problem. Are you worried about the .7875 MeV mass difference between a proton and a neutron? Let's see, the electron has a rest mass of .512 MeV, so .277 MeV is still needed. I would assume that is potential energy given up by the electron after it penetrates the nucleus, as it approaches the proton of its choice. --MJ}*** Scott Little wrote; Electron capture does create a vacancy in the original atom's K electron shell but the atom changes into the decay product before the vacancy can be filled from the outer shells. Thus the emitted x-rays are always those of the decay product atom, not the original atom. For example, Fe-55 emits Mn x-rays and Cd-109 emits Ag x-rays. These are popular radioisotope x-ray sources used in portable XRF analyzers. Scott Little wrote: My reference (Table of Isotopes, 7th edition) shows a decay scheme that involves the emission of gammas at various energies (in keV): 167.4 Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Interestingly, this is almost exactly 2 x 84 keV. Scott Little wrote: 135.34 32.19 1.58 Also you can expect Hg K x-rays every time, which are mostly ~71 keV. FRANKLY, I DO NOT KNOW HOW ENERGY IS CONSERVED IN SUCH A DECAY. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Isn't that why neutrinos were "invented"? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Hi Robin, Are neutrinos the bottom line here? Or are you deviously suggesting that Scott doesn't get OU in his Mizuno runs because the excess heat is being carried away by more energetic neutrinos than Mizuno makes? Personally, I prefer the X-rays. Is this a possible safety hazard? Jack Smith PS Maybe I made a mistake (shocker). Was it Crichton who wrote "The Andromeda Strain", and Hoyle's contribution to the genre was "The Black Cloud"? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:08:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03095; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:07:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:07:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000127100709.0079d370 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:07:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Awl torqued up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vn0L33.0.Fm.qy5au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Regarding my discussion of the emergency generator, Scott Little cautioned me to keep my units straight: >The phrase "HP of torque" is nonsensical. The motor generates 6 HP . . . I knew that. (Really, I did.) That was colloquial "south-speak" in which eve'thang gets torqued up. Ah've been dealing with a lot of southern electricians, Home Depot and auto-parts guys this past week. Musta' rubbed off a little. - Jed (who really does talk that way when he has a mind to) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:32:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13619; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:31:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:31:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000127103046.007cd870 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:30:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Georgia Power persecuting me?!? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000126173032.007d5dc0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000126173032.007d5dc0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_bMls3.0.jK3.1J6au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >What could possibly have gone wrong that required each house be visited? Just about every house had the line yanked out by falling tree branches! That's what pine trees do. Atlanta has more pine trees than any other major city, and the old neighborhoods have above-ground power, telephone and cable TV. In the newer 'burbs the lines are buried. Our whole street was festooned with fallen power and phones lines, decorated with orange, yellow and white plastic tape and garbage bags fluttering in the wind. You tie plastic to the line so that cars do not run into them. The guy on the garbage truck carries a long pole with a fork on the end to push them out of the way. People around here are used to power outages and fallen lines, which tells you something about the reliability of our energy infrastructure, doesn't it? Imagine what this is costing! It turns out our house was damaged, so we had to call an electrician, who is just finishing up. Now the power company says they do not know when they can make a return visit to turn on the power. It reminds me of the Flanders and Swan song "The Gas Man Cometh." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:36:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15793; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:35:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:35:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000127093140.01d23c44 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:31:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mizuno300 - Ken Shoulders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9kVT4.0.hs3.BN6au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Shoulders visited us on Tuesday (the 25th) to see our Incandescent W experiment and try out some of his pet ideas. A good time was had by all, many interesteing possibilities were discussed and tried...but no excess heat was observed. Read all about it at: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run6/run6.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:53:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22701; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:51:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:51:43 -0800 Message-ID: <389069EB.12368D33 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:53:21 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: c/fAR Energy Development Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D_daT2.0.YY5.Ec6au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for the interest. I would be happy to provide more details. Everybody in the CF field recognizes the need for interested people to duplicate the claims. At the present time this is very difficult because active material is not readily available and the equipment to measure energy production is expensive and complex. Other products from the reaction are even harder and more expensive for lay scientists to study. Chip Ransford has designed a very well engineered calorimeter which can be run by any high school student. He proposes to use this device not only as the basis for a duplication but also as a means to study the effect. He proposes to connect these devices through the internet such that many people in many different locations could contribute to the understanding, using what might be described as a virtual laboratory. While the concept is very imaginative and might work someday, it does have its practical problems which are now being worked out. The hope is that excitement (money) could be generated for the process, which then could be used to advance an understanding of the CF effect. In addition, the process would be an excellent teaching tool for students. For this concept to work, a source of reasonably active material must be found. A search in underway in several laboratories. Unfortunately, this is a slow process with the funding level available. Eventually a suitable source will be found and the virtual laboratory concept might take off, if not in this field perhaps in another. Regards, Ed Storms aki ix.netcom.com wrote: > January 26, 2000 > > Vortex, > > For quite a while now, Nova Resources Group, Inc. has been running full > page ads in Infinite Energy for their products. More recently, it has > used its ad page to announce an enterprise "c/FAR Energy Development > Institute" in which MvKubre, Passell, and Storms are introduced as > Institute Founders. All three are prominent in the cold fusion scene. > And particulary, Dr. Edmund Storms has been an active participant in > this Vortex discussion group. > > I was wondering if Dr. Storms could elaborate for Vortex some details of > the Institute effort so that we would be more impelled to send in the > funds to get the detailed instructions promised. When I saw the first > ad, I called NRG and was told the details were not yet ready. > > I notice the latest ad space has been halved by NRG. > > -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 08:03:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26743; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:02:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:02:03 -0800 Message-ID: <06c601bf68df$d5c02b80$d501010a clubelite.com> From: "Ben" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000126173032.007d5dc0 pop.mindspring.com><3.0.6.32.20000126173032.007d5dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000127103046.007cd870@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Georgia Power persecuting me?!? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:01:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"FXQnT3.0.MX6.vl6au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, I'm in Atlanta too, near Dunwoody, lost power for 3 days and nights and still have a big fat pine tree on my roof waiting to be removed :) .....was strange Sunday morning .... was so quiet around here except for all the crackling, snapping branches and trees falling around here for hours sounding like fireworks at New Years. Scary not knowing whether the next would squash me :) Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Georgia Power persecuting me?!? > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >What could possibly have gone wrong that required each house be visited? > > Just about every house had the line yanked out by falling tree branches! > That's what pine trees do. Atlanta has more pine trees than any other major > city, and the old neighborhoods have above-ground power, telephone and > cable TV. In the newer 'burbs the lines are buried. Our whole street was > festooned with fallen power and phones lines, decorated with orange, yellow > and white plastic tape and garbage bags fluttering in the wind. You tie > plastic to the line so that cars do not run into them. The guy on the > garbage truck carries a long pole with a fork on the end to push them out > of the way. People around here are used to power outages and fallen lines, > which tells you something about the reliability of our energy > infrastructure, doesn't it? Imagine what this is costing! > > It turns out our house was damaged, so we had to call an electrician, who > is just finishing up. Now the power company says they do not know when they > can make a return visit to turn on the power. It reminds me of the Flanders > and Swan song "The Gas Man Cometh." > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 08:40:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07345; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:37:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:37:48 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Energy Index Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:48:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000127164820812.AAA264 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"FmxRD3.0.Uo1.PH7au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Gnorts, > >I just noticed this feature at USA Today. > >http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wenerg1.htm While reading more about how this energy index is configured, I came upon these excellent links. If you are in the energy business, these look like they would be "must reads". http://www.ftenergyusa.com/gasdaily/default.asp http://www.ftenergyusa.com/mwdaily/default.asp Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 11:33:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23986; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:30:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:30:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000126231306.007148c0 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c mail.eden.com> <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:26:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"1miBE.0.es5.Rp9au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 07:50 PM 1/26/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>>Also you can expect Hg K x-rays every time, which are mostly ~71 keV. >> >>***{Logically, that would be Tl K x-rays, since the nucleus is Tl until the >>K-shell electron is captured, and the x-ray is emitted as a prelude to that >>happening. --MJ}*** > >Electron capture does create a vacancy in the original atom's K electron >shell but the atom changes into the decay product before the vacancy can be >filled from the outer shells. Thus the emitted x-rays are always those of >the decay product atom, not the original atom. For example, Fe-55 emits Mn >x-rays and Cd-109 emits Ag x-rays. These are popular radioisotope x-ray >sources used in portable XRF analyzers. ***{I was thinking in terms of the emissions, if any, that would be required to balance the books when the K-electron entered the nucleus, rather than in terms of the emissions that would be required to fill the vacancy it left in the K-shell. I even asked you explicitly what you were talking about, as follows: "Are you talking about the K-capture? Unless 71 keV is less than the energy difference between the K-shell and the surface of the nucleus, I don't see the problem." Thus I wasn't focused on the potential energy that an electron surrenders when it drops from a higher orbit into the K-shell, but on that surrendered *in the K-capture itself*--i.e., when the electron drops from the K-shell down into the nucleus. That energy would have to go somewhere, and, if emitted as a photon, would often produce an x-ray. In the usual case, of course, most of that energy is needed to incorporate the K-shell electron into the nucleus, and is not emitted. However, that which is left over, if any, will be emitted as one or more photons, and until those emissions have taken place, the transmutation from Z to Z - 1 will not be complete. Hence if such an emission falls in the x-ray band, it will be emitted from the Z nucleus (or, if we stretch the point, from a transitional state), rather than from the Z - 1 nucleus. --MJ}*** > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:33:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02165; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:31:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:31:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000127152741.01e22cac mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:27:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000126231306.007148c0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c mail.eden.com> <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WoibN.0.lX.yaBau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:26 PM 1/27/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >In the usual case, of course, most of >that energy is needed to incorporate the K-shell electron into the nucleus, >and is not emitted. However, that which is left over, if any, will be >emitted as one or more photons, and until those emissions have taken place, >the transmutation from Z to Z - 1 will not be complete. This is not the usual view. The Z-1 nucleus is formed immediately upon absorption of the captured electron. The excess energy manifests itself as an excited state of the Z-1 nucleus. The excited Z-1 nucleus then decays to its ground state via the emission of a gamma ray, and that's how the excess energy finally leaves the reaction. Note: the distinction between an x-ray and a gamma ray is one of origin alone. Gamma rays are photons emitted by nuclear transitions. X-rays are photons emitted by electronic transitions. Gamma rays CAN be much higher in energy than x-rays but they are not necessarily so. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:34:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02285; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:32:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:32:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:32:06 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Portable generator performance In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000126171957.007dc100 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ihVwY.0.dZ.PbBau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed My concern about the generator's life is due to my daughter's experience in 1998. They live in upstate NY, near the St. Lawrence river, and had a low cost Home Depot generator. When they were hit by the paralyzing ice storm, their generator lasted three days. The armature burned out. They were without power for several weeks, and had to move in with a neighbor who still had a coal stove. They had a very tough few weeks. The temperature was down to 0 to -10F after the ice-storm. Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:48:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07794; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:43:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:43:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000127164253.007cf100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:42:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Portable generator performance In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000126171957.007dc100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EDJpN.0.cv1.ylBau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank scudder wrote: > My concern about the generator's life is due to my daughter's >experience in 1998. They live in upstate NY, near the St. Lawrence river, >and had a low cost Home Depot generator. When they were hit by the >paralyzing ice storm, their generator lasted three days. The armature >burned out. Three days?!? That must be a new record. Mine upchucked a bunch of filthy oil this morning. I added some clean oil and it is working like a champ again. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 16:21:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26274; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:19:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:19:11 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:18:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5vn19s893n5p3h80hmkac1moj81m0hfbtl 4ax.com> References: <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c@mail.eden.com> <38905F15.25BDE69 D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> In-Reply-To: <38905F15.25BDE69D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA26181 Resent-Message-ID: <"KcseD3.0.SQ6._1Eau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:07:01 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: [snip] >Hi Robin, > >Are neutrinos the bottom line here? I think so. > >Or are you deviously suggesting that Scott doesn't get OU in his >Mizuno runs because the excess heat is being carried away by more >energetic neutrinos than Mizuno makes? No, you are suggesting this ;). > >Personally, I prefer the X-rays. Is this a possible safety hazard? X or gamma rays yes, neutrinos no. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 16:28:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29703; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:27:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:27:18 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Ken Shoulders Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:26:42 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000127093140.01d23c44 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000127093140.01d23c44 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA29662 Resent-Message-ID: <"LM4gA3.0.-F7.c9Eau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:31:40 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Shoulders visited us on Tuesday (the 25th) to see our Incandescent W >experiment and try out some of his pet ideas. A good time was had by all, >many interesteing possibilities were discussed and tried...but no excess >heat was observed. Read all about it at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run6/run6.html [snip] Scott, is either your setup of O&M's setups earthed (actual real "rod in the ground" earth)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 18:09:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02205; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:05:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:05:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000127152741.01e22cac mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000126231306.007148c0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000126160040.01e2621c mail.eden.com> <001501bf6834$052bae00$239cf1c3 vannoorden> <3.0.1.32.20000126113647.00dc4258 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:02:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: plasma discharge reaction Resent-Message-ID: <"3A5mu1.0.JY.-bFau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 01:26 PM 1/27/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>In the usual case, of course, most of >>that energy is needed to incorporate the K-shell electron into the nucleus, >>and is not emitted. However, that which is left over, if any, will be >>emitted as one or more photons, and until those emissions have taken place, >>the transmutation from Z to Z - 1 will not be complete. > >This is not the usual view. ***{When have I ever held the usual view? :-) --MJ}*** The Z-1 nucleus is formed immediately upon >absorption of the captured electron. ***{As long as the nucleus is in an excited state, there is no basis to conclude that the captured electron has been absorbed into one of the protons, transforming it into a neutron. The electron can be in the nucleus without being inside one of the nucleons, and so long as it isn't, Z is unchanged. While some labeling convention must be applied to excited nuclei so that we can look them up in isotope tables, the accepted practice of assuming that captured electrons have been enveloped into one of the nucleons is illogical: until the excess energy exits the nucleus via a photon, it must be carried by particles in the nucleus itself, and the most logical particle to do that is the electron which carried it into the nucleus in the first place. And if that electron still carries it, then there is simply *no way* it can be inside a nucleon. To say otherwise would be as unreasonable as to say that the Earth could occupy Mercury's orbit without giving up any of its present energy prior to doing so. --MJ}*** The excess energy manifests itself as >an excited state of the Z-1 nucleus. The excited Z-1 nucleus then decays >to its ground state via the emission of a gamma ray, and that's how the >excess energy finally leaves the reaction. ***{That is the conventional view, and if we want to find what we are looking for in isotope tables, we must be aware of it. However, a more logical convention would be to classify a nucleus that has been excited as the result of electron capture under the same Z as the nucleus that captured the electron. --MJ}*** > >Note: the distinction between an x-ray and a gamma ray is one of origin >alone. Gamma rays are photons emitted by nuclear transitions. X-rays are >photons emitted by electronic transitions. Gamma rays CAN be much higher >in energy than x-rays but they are not necessarily so. ***{This is still a convention only in nuclear physics, but, even there, it is often honored in the breach. Elsewhere in physics, gammas and x-rays are classified by wavelength at least as often, and probably more often, than by origin. For example, in *Nuclear Radiation Physics*, by Lapp and Andrews, we read (pg. 100): "Historically, gamma rays emitted by natural radioelements provided the physicist with a much higher energy radiation than he could produce in the early X-ray tubes. Thus the treatment and, indeed, the terminology used for X and gamma rays have often been such that X rays were considered as the longer wave-length radiation. Consequently, most textbooks on the subject have distinguished between X and gamma rays on the basis of energy considerations." I own dozens of textbooks on various aspects of physics, and more often than not, particularly outside the specific area of nuclear physics, gamma rays are discussed and defined in terms of wavelength, though in some instances the contradictory claim is also made that all gamma rays originate in nuclei. In my view, these latter claims, when made by physicists who define gamma and x-rays in terms of wavelength, arise out of simple ignorance: they are not aware that the wavelength classification they are using forces some photons from non-nuclear sources to be labeled as gammas. In any case, the convention of distinguishing x-rays from gamma rays on the basis of origin is illogical: we can easily measure the wavelength of a photon; but we cannot easily measure its origin. Since the convention has always been illogical, it has become progressively weakened over time, as successive generations of physics students have remembered the logical relationship, and forgotten the illogical one, and the result is that the usage is now so inconsistent that each person is free to make his own choice about how to define these terms. For myself, as usual, I come down on the side of logic: I prefer to distinguish between gamma and x-rays on the basis of wavelength, rather than on the basis of origin, and that is always the distinction I have in mind when I use those terms. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 18:21:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04920; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:13:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000127201504.00714adc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:15:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000127093140.01d23c44 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000127093140.01d23c44 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qYANM.0.jC1.YjFau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:26 AM 1/28/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Scott, is either your setup of O&M's setups earthed (actual real "rod in the >ground" earth)? I don't know about theirs but mine has varied from time to time. For Run 6 just reported, everything was floating (the DC power supply has an isolated output and the Clarke-Hess power analyzer has isolated input channels). On many if not most of the earlier runs, the negative side of the DC supply is tied to the electrical mains safety ground, which runs through the building wiring to the main electrical panel and then to a Cu-jacketed rod driven into the ground. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 18:50:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16145; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:49:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:49:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:46:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - current meters Resent-Message-ID: <"FQqrm.0.7y3.nEGau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitch > The charge carried by the hi-frequency spikes is stored in the >capacitors of the filter, and then measured by the meter. Nothing is lost >here. ***{Why not? All capacitors are frequency sensitive. As frequency increases, the capacitor's opposition to a flow of current across its plates decreases. Result: no matter what capacitors you use in a filter, spikes that occur at rates above the critical frequencies of those capacitors are going to be shorted to ground, and will *not* be metered. --MJ}*** > >Hank ***{As a matter of related interest, here (between the lines of asterisks) is an excerpt from an exchange I had with electronics guru Don Lancaster on this subject awhile back: ****************************** Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > ***{Mechanical capacitors, I guess. I take it, then, that you agree with > Fred's suggestion about using capacitors between the meters and the load > in the electrochemical cell experiment? If so, what would be your specific > approach to that design? What types and sizes of capacitors would you > recommend for an electrochemical cell setup that was pulling .3 amps at > 168 volts and showing an apparent COP of 1.5? Rather than fancy caps, I would use modern signal processing to accurately measure the power. Taking, say, 15,000 or more identical 12-bit or higher simultaneous voltage and current line locked samples per second, digitially multiplying them together, THEN averaging and summing and scaling. I'd also watch the waveforms for funny duty cycles, sparking, and stuff that would foul up the works. Either a PIC or a PC can now easily handle accurate power measurement. Tasks that were ridiculously expensive or complex (and definitely misunderstood) a year ago. Maxim has a superb new chip for this. -- Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com ****************************** Based on his comments, above and elsewhere, Don did not think capacitors were capable of solving this particular problem. Worse, he recommended watching the waveforms as a backup procedure, because "funny duty cycles," "sparking," etc., could still "foul up the works" even if state of the art signal processing was used to measure the power. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 18:51:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16127; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:49:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:49:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000126171957.007dc100 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:21:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Portable generator performance Resent-Message-ID: <"atLU.0.ux3.mEGau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jed > My concern about the generator's life is due to my daughter's >experience in 1998. They live in upstate NY, near the St. Lawrence river, >and had a low cost Home Depot generator. When they were hit by the >paralyzing ice storm, their generator lasted three days. The armature >burned out. They were without power for several weeks, and had to move in >with a neighbor who still had a coal stove. They had a very tough few >weeks. The temperature was down to 0 to -10F after the ice-storm. > >Hank ***{A diesel generator is the right way to go, despite the higher initial cost. A diesel from a reputable manufacturer is a work horse. It will keep chugging away for years. Inexpensive gasoline powered generators, on the other hand, are almost invariably junk. You are lucky if they last a month in continuous usage, and as an added bonus they put out lots of deadly carbon monoxide. Hell, the fuel is even perishable: gasoline becomes unusable when stored for more than about 6 months. Diesel, on the other hand, does not deteriorate measurably for many years. When you add up the pluses and minuses, the diesel wins hands down. It is the only way to go, if you have time to think and do research before you make your purchase. (If your power is already out before you recognize the problem, on the other hand, you are pretty much stuck with whatever you can put your hands on.) --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 21:19:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA03335; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:13:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:13:47 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Ken Shoulders Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:13:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000127093140.01d23c44 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000127093140.01d23c44@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000127201504.00714adc@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000127201504.00714adc mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA03316 Resent-Message-ID: <"9kfFx3.0.1q.BMIau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:15:04 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >I don't know about theirs but mine has varied from time to time. For Run 6 >just reported, everything was floating (the DC power supply has an isolated >output and the Clarke-Hess power analyzer has isolated input channels). On >many if not most of the earlier runs, the negative side of the DC supply is >tied to the electrical mains safety ground, which runs through the building >wiring to the main electrical panel and then to a Cu-jacketed rod driven >into the ground. I take it this means that in earlier runs, the cathode was directly connected to the ground? If so, then you might consider preparing a cathode by first running it as a ground connected cathode with a mild current (couple of mA) for a week or maybe two. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 22:02:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA19828; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:01:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:01:10 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:00:58 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <389069EB.12368D33 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: new Rife technology patent Resent-Message-ID: <"nmRyU.0.dr4.a2Jau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been following the career of Dr. James Bare, DC for some time. Last spring he was awarded a USP # 5 908 441. It is an improvement on Royal Rife's technology. When a combination of radio, Khz frequencied are combined with audio frequencies and fed into a living system they have the interesting ability do cause certain cells to burst. Which cells burst is frequency dependent. The system can be tuned to burst the desired cells. Dr. Bare's patent covers the use of a gas tube as an antenna to discharge this energy into. The patent mentions the combination of the radio frequencies with the audio frequencies through the process of superhetrodyning to produce a new waves some of which are scalar. The wave generator used to power this machine produces square waves. The site at http://www.rt66.com~rifetech has a discussion of the use of these waves in bursting cancer and disease cells and has links to the patent and suppliers of the amplifiers and plasma tubes required to construct such a machine. I'm writing to see if any of you vortexians are interested in discussing what is happening in that tube. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 00:29:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17643; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:27:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:27:40 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new Rife technology patent Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:27:00 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <389069EB.12368D33 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA17622 Resent-Message-ID: <"tgQGf1.0.bJ4.uBLau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:00:58 -0600, thomas Malloy wrote: [snip] >I'm writing to see if any of you vortexians are interested in discussing >what is happening in that tube. > Hi Thomas, If you haven't already read "Lost Science" by Gerry Vassilatos, then I suggest you do so. There are various chapters on the work of different people from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, all of which appears to share a common underlying theme. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 06:48:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18732; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:47:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:47:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <389069EB.12368D33 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:27:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: new Rife technology patent Resent-Message-ID: <"wiUTC3.0.Wa4.QmQau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I've been following the career of Dr. James Bare, DC for some time. > > Last spring he was awarded a USP # 5 908 441. It is an improvement on >Royal Rife's technology. When a combination of radio, Khz frequencied are >combined with audio frequencies and fed into a living system they have the >interesting ability do cause certain cells to burst. ***{Are you saying that RF and audio are required for the effect--i.e., that when one or the other is used alone, there is no effect? In other words, the RF and the audio act together? If so, what is the theory of the interaction? --MJ}*** Which cells burst is >frequency dependent. The system can be tuned to burst the desired cells. >Dr. Bare's patent covers the use of a gas tube as an antenna to discharge >this energy into. The patent mentions the combination of the radio >frequencies with the audio frequencies through the process of >superhetrodyning to produce a new waves some of which are scalar. The wave >generator used to power this machine produces square waves. > >The site at http://www.rt66.com~rifetech has a discussion of the use of >these waves in bursting cancer and disease cells and has links to the >patent and suppliers of the amplifiers and plasma tubes required to >construct such a machine. > >I'm writing to see if any of you vortexians are interested in discussing >what is happening in that tube. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 07:27:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31804; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:25:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:25:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:27:38 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Anomalous heat from Pt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wSmR6.0.sm7.5KRau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, I would like to invite the resident skeptics and curious to view the results of a successful cold fusion experiment, in particular a study of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect. A brief paper in MS-Word 6.0 describing the work can be found at > http://www.amasci.com/weird/Pt_en_pr.rtf If you can not view this, another source will be available soon or you can request a copy in a format you can view. To give you a little background, I have been studying the P-F effect for about 10 years starting at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. During that time I have seen anomalous energy production from Pd-D2O cells having values over a range up to 7.5 watts. Recently, I have constructed several flow-type calorimeters having much better sensitivity and stability than the isoperibolic type I was using. Consequently, I can detect and believe lower excess power levels, values I would have ignored before. Recently, several samples produced anomalous power and will be described in detail at ICCF-8. I hope this rare success will stir up some interest and suggestions. Please feel free to give it your best shot. Regards, Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:06:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15930; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:05:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:05:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000128110441.007d47c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:04:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RkyxC1.0.fu3.suRau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The paper in at: http://www.amasci.com/weird/Pt_en_pr.rtf Can now be displayed with a web browser at: http://www.mindspring.com/~jedrothwell/Pt-energy.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:18:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA20756; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:17:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:17:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3891C16D.F4ABEAF4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:18:59 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1qm4y1.0.A45.D4Sau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > Dear All, > > I would like to invite the resident skeptics and curious to view > the results > of a successful cold fusion experiment, in particular a study of > the > Pons-Fleischmann Effect. A brief paper in MS-Word 6.0 describing > the work can > be found at > > http://www.amasci.com/weird/Pt_en_pr.rtf > > or at > > http://www.mindspring.com/~jedrothwell/Pt-energy.htm > Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:24:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22801; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:22:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:22:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000128112215.007d3e90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:22:15 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Namo Wb editor recommended Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K394I.0.6a5.H9Sau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little recommended this HTML and web page tool: Namo Wb Editor (www.namo.com) It's available as a 7 meg download for a 20 day evaluation, then you have to pay $79. It is made by a Korean company; you download from Korea. The English documentation is a little bit strange and sparce, but the program is simple, direct and fast. It's good old-fashioned software. Thanks, Scott! I used it to upload Ed's paper, after reformatting it in HTML with WordPerfect. Let me know if the pictures are too big or too small. I may play around with this and add a "click to enlarge picture" button. Then again, maybe I should get back to work. A person could play with stuff for the rest of his life. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 09:18:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08844; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:12:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:12:50 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: rwormus lock-load.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: thomas Malloy Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:08:21 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Re: new Rife technology patent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA08820 Resent-Message-ID: <"lor6e3.0.6A2.IuSau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas & Vorts, I too have followed and am interested in Bares work. I have built a couple of similar devices to experiment with and am now in communication with two other engineers who are actively running instrumented experiments trying to isolate the "Rife" effect. Th ere are hundreds of other people using "Bare Devices" to treat themselves for "anything imaginable" and making unverifiable claims as to results. The effect as claimed by Bare is much like CF in that it seems to be real but not especially reproducible. All medical claims are anecdotal as far as I know and the designs of the early Rife machines have been lost: the available records are poor and kept by a John Crane who was a tinkerer with little or no education in the physical sciences. Bare has not shown to my satisfaction that his effects are really as frequency dependent as he claims. That said, I have had some intriguing results in some of my experiments with euglena exposed to a RF pulse modulated Ar plasma tube and I am convinced that there are biological effects (interactions) with these low power pulse modulated plasmas. Character izing these effects so they are readily reproducible is a problem and as far as I know there is no verifiable evidence "scalar" radiation. I would welcome a discussion of potential biological effects of these plasmas and their potential causes. I am set up to run experiments but do not have a RF spectrum analyzer and isolating the cause of observed effects is difficult as RF is a pain to wor k with as it gets into everything. Also, the biological specimens vary from batch to batch. If we get a discussion going I will invite the other instrumented experimenters to join vortex. Ron W. On 27-Jan-00, thomas Malloy wrote: tM> I've been following the career of Dr. James Bare, DC for some time. tM> tM> Last spring he was awarded a USP # 5 908 441. It is an improvement on tM> Royal Rife's technology. When a combination of radio, Khz frequencied are tM> combined with audio frequencies and fed into a living system they have the tM> interesting ability do cause certain cells to burst. Which cells burst is tM> frequency dependent. The system can be tuned to burst the desired cells. tM> Dr. Bare's patent covers the use of a gas tube as an antenna to discharge tM> this energy into. The patent mentions the combination of the radio tM> frequencies with the audio frequencies through the process of tM> superhetrodyning to produce a new waves some of which are scalar. The wave tM> generator used to power this machine produces square waves. tM> tM> The site at http://www.rt66.com~rifetech has a discussion of the use of tM> these waves in bursting cancer and disease cells and has links to the tM> patent and suppliers of the amplifiers and plasma tubes required to tM> construct such a machine. tM> tM> I'm writing to see if any of you vortexians are interested in discussing tM> what is happening in that tube. tM> tM> tM> -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 09:20:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10904; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:18:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000128111440.01e33d34 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:14:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8Zbco2.0.5g2.rzSau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:27 AM 1/28/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Recently, several >samples produced anomalous power and will be described in detail at ICCF-8. I >hope this rare success will stir up some interest and suggestions. Please >feel free to give it your best shot. Excellent report, Ed. Your protocol essentially proves that something pertaining to the condition of the cathode is causing the excess power (EP) signals. I am curious about the temporal behavior of the EP signal. As I understand the data you present, the maximum EP was obtained at the max current of 3A, yet you never ran the cell at that current level for any great length of time. You did, however, run the cell at 1.5A for extended periods and during those periods the EP always declined noticeably. Presumably if you operated the cell at 3A for an extended period, the EP would also decline noticeably...perhaps even more rapidly than observed at 1.5A....? I gather that each of the data points in your current sweep is the average of 5 values taken 4 minutes apart. When you were at 3A, where the EP was maximum, can you see the declining of the EP in those 5 values? Would you please provide a plot of the 3 electrolyte temperature sensors vs time with the EP trace superimposed thereon? I would like to see whether the EP signal is reflected in the electrolyte temperatures. Also, what flow rate did you use during the 450 hr run depicted in Fig 4? Finally, in your discussion of the differences in sensitivity observed between electrolytic power and joule power on the isoperibolic calibration you left out what I thought would be the major cause for the difference: the fact that, with electrolytic power, a significant fraction of the electrical input power gets dissipated in the recombiner, which is not in good thermal contact with the electrolyte. Do you think this is not very significant? I am "warming up" my low-power calorimeter for a possible replication of this experiment. Do you think it will be easy to replicate the Pt surface conditions that cause this EP effect? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 11:23:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20691; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:22:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:22:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3891ECB9.B007BDA6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:23:42 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <3.0.1.32.20000128111440.01e33d34 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4cDQr2.0.D35.VnUau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 08:27 AM 1/28/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >Recently, several > >samples produced anomalous power and will be described in detail at > ICCF-8. I > >hope this rare success will stir up some interest and suggestions. Please > >feel free to give it your best shot. > > Excellent report, Ed. Your protocol essentially proves that something > pertaining to the condition of the cathode is causing the excess power (EP) > signals. > > I am curious about the temporal behavior of the EP signal. As I understand > the data you present, the maximum EP was obtained at the max current of 3A, > yet you never ran the cell at that current level for any great length of > time. You did, however, run the cell at 1.5A for extended periods and > during those periods the EP always declined noticeably. Presumably if you > operated the cell at 3A for an extended period, the EP would also decline > noticeably...perhaps even more rapidly than observed at 1.5A....? During current sweeps, the current would have been above 1.5 A for about 6 hrs. I agree that the effect should be faster at higher current. At the end of the run, when a series of sweeps were made, the last one, not shown on the figure, showed a reduction in EP as if the accumulated time at high current finally had an effect. > > I gather that each of the data points in your current sweep is the average > of 5 values taken 4 minutes apart. When you were at 3A, where the EP was > maximum, can you see the declining of the EP in those 5 values? No, each of the 5 data points is plotted, not the average. There is no clear change in EP over the 17 min used to take the 5 data points. > > Would you please provide a plot of the 3 electrolyte temperature sensors vs > time with the EP trace superimposed thereon? I would like to see whether > the EP signal is reflected in the electrolyte temperatures. It will take me a little while to extract this data which I will make available, Meanwhile I can tell you that no EP is indicated using the isoperibolic mode because of significant drift of the calibration constant. This drift, I think, is caused by an unstable, visible coating which is on the inner wall of the jacket. > Also, what flow rate did you use during the 450 hr run depicted in Fig 4? 31.66 g/min of distilled water > > Finally, in your discussion of the differences in sensitivity observed > between electrolytic power and joule power on the isoperibolic calibration > you left out what I thought would be the major cause for the difference: > the fact that, with electrolytic power, a significant fraction of the > electrical input power gets dissipated in the recombiner, which is not in > good thermal contact with the electrolyte. Do you think this is not very > significant? This effect occurs but the fact that no change was seen in the flow calibration indicates that preferential loss of heat from the recombiner through the lid is not important. The effect on the isoperibolic calorimeter, I find, is very sensitive to the heater location with respect to the temperature probes. Therefore, I conclude that local temperature gradients are more important that preferential loss from the recombiner. > > I am "warming up" my low-power calorimeter for a possible replication of > this experiment. Do you think it will be easy to replicate the Pt surface > conditions that cause this EP effect? So far, I have not duplicated the conditions. I'm hoping this environment is less sensitive to substrate material than is a Pd substrate. We shall see. In any case, the active layer is very thin and contains very little deuterium although the activity approaches values seen using Pd. The active layer is also delicate as indicated by the 1.5 A effect. However, exposure to air does not kill the effect. Dash claims to see EP activity in Pt after being electrolyzed in D2O+H2SO4. This suggests that various conditions seem to work. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 12:00:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01715; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:56:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:56:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000128145600.007a45d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:56:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3891ECB9.B007BDA6 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000128111440.01e33d34 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kB2yr.0.cQ.uHVau" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since cold fusion began, people have said that platinum with light water is the ideal control. Supposedly it never produces excess heat. Recently, however, Dash et al. and Storms have observed significant excess heat from this system. I think people have assumed that noble metals like platinum and gold do not absorb significant amounts of hydrogen, so they cannot produce the cold fusion effect. However, excess heat in Au-H systems were reported by Ohmori and Enyo years ago, and now we seen signs of heat with Pt-H. Some people may consider these positive results an embarrassment. Some may even wish to ignore or cover them up, on the assumption they must be a mistake. In Infinite Energy issue 29, page 25 I expressed the hope that cold fusion scientists would begin to use the Web more extensively to speed up the accurate, timely transmission of data and scientific papers. I'm pleased to see Ed Storms doing so. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 12:26:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05976; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:23:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:23:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3891FB26.65D13283 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:25:18 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <3.0.1.32.20000128111440.01e33d34 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000128145600.007a45d0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xwML71.0.HT1.GhVau" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed raises an interesting point. The field has gone through several evolutionary steps. First P-F proposed that the process took place throughout the palladium lattice. Next, it became clear that the process occurred within a thin surface region, but still within the palladium lattice. Now, the possibility exists that the anomalous process takes place within an impurity layer which forms on the metal surface. If this is the case, the physical properties of palladium, which were found to influence the effect, did so because these properties allowed deuterium to leak out of the surface region into the Pd metal. Such a leak is not possible when the substrate is gold or platinum because these metals do not diffuse significant hydrogen. Prof. Dash also sees EP using titanium for which, although it does form a hydride, successful samples show no significant diffusion. If the nuclear process does take place in the surface layer or at the layer-substrate interface, many attempted explanations need to be reexamined and attempts to duplicate the effect need to try materials other than palladium. The plot thickens. Ed Storms Jed Rothwell wrote: > Since cold fusion began, people have said that platinum with light water is > the ideal control. Supposedly it never produces excess heat. Recently, > however, Dash et al. and Storms have observed significant excess heat from > this system. I think people have assumed that noble metals like platinum > and gold do not absorb significant amounts of hydrogen, so they cannot > produce the cold fusion effect. However, excess heat in Au-H systems were > reported by Ohmori and Enyo years ago, and now we seen signs of heat with > Pt-H. Some people may consider these positive results an embarrassment. > Some may even wish to ignore or cover them up, on the assumption they must > be a mistake. > > In Infinite Energy issue 29, page 25 I expressed the hope that cold fusion > scientists would begin to use the Web more extensively to speed up the > accurate, timely transmission of data and scientific papers. I'm pleased to > see Ed Storms doing so. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 12:54:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17476; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:52:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:52:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000128155209.007aae80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:52:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3891FB26.65D13283 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000128111440.01e33d34 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000128145600.007a45d0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"v2Kb21.0.uG4.J6Wau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I reformatted slightly and converted graphic formats per Scott Little's suggestion. The page can also be reached at: jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy.htm . . . if you don't like typing tildes. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 13:53:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05286; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:51:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:51:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000128165130.0079a5f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:51:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mizuno photos on Web Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LtFZG.0.WI1.wzWau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since I went to the trouble to learn how to use MindSpring's Web space, I thought I should practice when I preach and post a few of these electronic photographs from Mizuno's lab. See: http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Mizuno-photos.htm Note the damage to the used tungsten cathode. MindSpring's Web space is easier to deal with than CompuServe, but the default tools they recommend are horrendous. The program Scott Little recommended is much better. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 15:28:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06930; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:26:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:26:46 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:31:45 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Specific Methodology and aparatus . Rife technology patent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UX0pL.0.0i1.qMYau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to know about specific details of such work. Are electrodes used to make galvanic or ohmic contact with living organsim? Specifically, how does the methodology operate? On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >I've been following the career of Dr. James Bare, DC for some time. > > > > Last spring he was awarded a USP # 5 908 441. It is an improvement on > >Royal Rife's technology. When a combination of radio, Khz frequencied are > >combined with audio frequencies and fed into a living system they have the > >interesting ability do cause certain cells to burst. > > ***{Are you saying that RF and audio are required for the effect--i.e., > that when one or the other is used alone, there is no effect? In other > words, the RF and the audio act together? If so, what is the theory of the > interaction? --MJ}*** > > Which cells burst is > >frequency dependent. The system can be tuned to burst the desired cells. > >Dr. Bare's patent covers the use of a gas tube as an antenna to discharge > >this energy into. The patent mentions the combination of the radio > >frequencies with the audio frequencies through the process of > >superhetrodyning to produce a new waves some of which are scalar. The wave > >generator used to power this machine produces square waves. > > > >The site at http://www.rt66.com~rifetech has a discussion of the use of > >these waves in bursting cancer and disease cells and has links to the > >patent and suppliers of the amplifiers and plasma tubes required to > >construct such a machine. > > > >I'm writing to see if any of you vortexians are interested in discussing > >what is happening in that tube. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 16:18:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18724; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:17:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:17:22 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:16:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> References: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA18705 Resent-Message-ID: <"IKeQF1.0.Ua4.H6Zau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:27:38 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Dear All, > >I would like to invite the resident skeptics and curious to view the results >of a successful cold fusion experiment, in particular a study of the >Pons-Fleischmann Effect. A brief paper in MS-Word 6.0 describing the work can >be found at > >> http://www.amasci.com/weird/Pt_en_pr.rtf On a whim, I divided the excess power in fig. 5 by the current, to obtain a voltage of 0.27 volt. This is also the difference between the low voltage at which water begins to split with absorption of heat from the environment (1.21 volt), and the voltage at which it will split with no heat exchange with the environment (1.48 volt). Is this correlation coincidental, or perhaps related? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 19:52:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19960; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:49:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:49:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:50:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> References: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ax1qh3.0.ht4.YDcau" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed, Continuing to look at your data, I note with some concern that your excess heat signal is only 3% of the input power. Not only is this in my "calorimetry red zone" (<10% relative)...it is at the lower end of it! Obviously, your calorimeter is achieving the necessary precision to work in this range. What I'm afraid of are subtle systematic errors. Your protocol would seem to eliminate the possibility of a systematic error but to just accept that assumption would be naive. Earlier, I requested a plot of electrolyte temperatures. Now I'd rather have a look at every bit of data that you have. Can you put the recorded data into a simple text file where each line represents an "observation" and all the measured parameters are in separate columns? Such a file would be easily importable into a spreadsheet and then I (and any other interested party) could generate any desired plot. Thanks, Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 20:57:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23206; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:55:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:55:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:53:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> References: <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Vxn6N.0.Wg5.eAdau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Continuing to look at your data, I note with some concern that your excess >heat signal is only 3% of the input power. Not only is this in my >"calorimetry red zone" (<10% relative)...it is at the lower end of it! McKubre said something similar, but I disagree -- partly. Input power does add to background noise of course, but it is no more a problem than noise from bath temperature fluctuations, or the compensation heater, or from various other sources. It should not be treated as a special case. If the calibration proves this source of noise is under control, then so be it. The real issue is the sensitivity of the calorimeter; the S/N ratio. In Ed's case, the signal is many times larger than the minimum limits of detection, so the fact that most of this "N" comes from input power is of no special significance. You might as well say that room temperature is way above absolute zero, which makes it an extreme form of noise. In other words, you might say: "this temperature rise is only 1 degree, or 0.5% of 290 deg K. It is tiny little increment!" Yeah, so it is, but our thermometers work well in the 270 - 370 deg K range, despite the noise, and a 1 deg K change is a big jump. A 300 mW change in Ed's calorimeter is big, even if it happens to be sitting on top of a 27 watt mountain. To take an extreme, imaginary case, suppose input power was 1,000 watts but the calorimeter happened to good at reading power between 995 and 1005 watts, to the nearest 20 mW. 20 mW sensitivity over a range of 10 watts is not unheard of. The fact that this narrow range happens to be in a hot, rather noisy environment would be noteworthy but not astounding. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 21:16:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28603; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:15:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:15:10 -0800 Message-ID: <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:16:47 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nRYpd2.0.l-6.UTdau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Ed, > > Continuing to look at your data, I note with some concern that your excess > heat signal is only 3% of the input power. Not only is this in my > "calorimetry red zone" (<10% relative)...it is at the lower end of it! > > Obviously, your calorimeter is achieving the necessary precision to work in > this range. What I'm afraid of are subtle systematic errors. Your > protocol would seem to eliminate the possibility of a systematic error but > to just accept that assumption would be naive. I would agree, if the excess had a random behavior or if the two calibrations differed by the magnitude of the excess. If this were the case, I would be concerned as well and would not have presented the data. However, the random variation as well as agreement between separate calibrations are much smaller than EP. In addition, the EP values show a consistent pattern with respect to the effect of applied high current. In addition, many hours of use gives me confidence in the stability of the calorimeter. The proof is in the behavior not in some arbitrary limit. It's just a damned good calorimeter. > > > Earlier, I requested a plot of electrolyte temperatures. Now I'd rather > have a look at every bit of data that you have. Can you put the recorded > data into a simple text file where each line represents an "observation" > and all the measured parameters are in separate columns? Such a file would > be easily importable into a spreadsheet and then I (and any other > interested party) could generate any desired plot. I can down load this to Jed but the file is quite long consisting of 2600 data points with a size of about 980 kB. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 21:24:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30196; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:18:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:18:08 -0800 Message-ID: <38927871.DB48FA3D ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:19:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E_eoJ.0.kN7.FWdau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:27:38 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >Dear All, > > > >I would like to invite the resident skeptics and curious to view the results > >of a successful cold fusion experiment, in particular a study of the > >Pons-Fleischmann Effect. A brief paper in MS-Word 6.0 describing the work can > >be found at > > > >> http://www.amasci.com/weird/Pt_en_pr.rtf > On a whim, I divided the excess power in fig. 5 by the current, to obtain a > voltage of 0.27 volt. This is also the difference between the low voltage at > which water begins to split with absorption of heat from the environment > (1.21 volt), and the voltage at which it will split with no heat exchange > with the environment (1.48 volt). Is this correlation coincidental, or > perhaps related? The fluid is D2O which has neutral potential of 1.54 V. I think the value you obtain has no meaning. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 06:52:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08638; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:51:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:51:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000129085309.00715b84 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:53:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> References: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fCOaz1.0.u62.Cwlau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:16 PM 1/28/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >I would agree, if the excess had a random behavior or if the two calibrations >differed by the magnitude of the excess. If this were the case, I would be >concerned as well and would not have presented the data. However, the random >variation as well as agreement between separate calibrations are much smaller >than EP. In addition, the EP values show a consistent pattern with respect to >the effect of applied high current. In addition, many hours of use gives me >confidence in the stability of the calorimeter. The proof is in the behavior >not in some arbitrary limit. It's just a damned good calorimeter. I agree with all your points but they do not amount to proof that systematic errors are not behind your positive results. >I can down load this to Jed but the file is quite long consisting of 2600 data >points with a size of about 980 kB. That's not bad. Please do so ASAP. Ed, you are going to make history with this move. The first person to post positive excess heat results from a cold fusion experiment on Vortex AND supply all the data behind the results AND discuss the particulars of the experiment openly. Congratulations! Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 07:11:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16004; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:10:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:10:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000129091203.0070d79c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:12:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X1WoU1.0.rv3.uBmau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:53 PM 1/28/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >McKubre said something similar, but I disagree -- partly. Input power does >add to background noise of course, but it is no more a problem than noise >from bath temperature fluctuations, or the compensation heater, or from >various other sources. It should not be treated as a special case. Jed, I agree that it is possible for your scenario to be the case. In fact, before I had built and operated some 10 different calorimeter designs, I would have been willing to bet that you were right. However, the painful experience of personally staring at small systematic errors, which usually happen to run around a few percent of the total input power, has humbled me considerably. You might be right. I might be right. We have a great opportunity here, with Ed's cooperation, to examine ALL the data behind his wonderful-looking results. When you get the file, just FTP it to your public_html directory on mindspring.com and post the address of it. It'll be something like http://www.mindspring.com/~jedrothwell/rawdata.dat NOTE: don't name the file something.txt. If you do, the browser will just display it on the screen, making saving it to disk perhaps a little clumsy. It will be cleaner if you name the file something.dat. That will cause the browser to open the Save This File to Disk dialog...which is what we want to do. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 08:57:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15075; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:56:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:56:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129115450.0079d6d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:54:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> References: <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"c9Iv63.0.Ph3.1lnau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I can down load this to Jed but the file is quite long consisting of 2600 data >points with a size of about 980 kB. No problem! I have another 9 MB left, even after loading those pictures without bothering to trim them or shrink them. (I'll bet that annoyed some of viewers here. I am spoiled by my fast ADSL connection.) I'll have to think about how to format the data. I can upload two or three versions, in ASCII, spreadsheet native format, or whatever. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:12:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22765; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:11:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:11:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129115907.0079b520 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:59:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3Lwnp1.0.dZ5.wynau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >A 300 mW change in Ed's calorimeter is big, >even if it happens to be sitting on top of a 27 watt mountain. What I am saying is that the absolute power is more important than the percent of input. It is much easier to measure the difference between 27.0 and 27.3 watts than it is to measure the difference between 0.010 and 0.030 watts, even though the latter would be 300% excess. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:26:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26246; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:24:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:24:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129122243.007af630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:22:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000129091203.0070d79c mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AMNxb3.0.0Q6.B9oau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Jed, I agree that it is possible for your scenario to be the case. In >fact, before I had built and operated some 10 different calorimeter >designs, I would have been willing to bet that you were right. Well, either I am or I am not. This isn't rocket science, after all. However, >the painful experience of personally staring at small systematic errors, >which usually happen to run around a few percent of the total input power, >has humbled me considerably. Humble is good, but I hope the experience has not robbed you of common sense. Ed Storms is working with $15,000 of top-notch, off-the-shelf equipment, and he is measuring the difference between 27.0 and 27.3 watts. Any trained scientist with the proper equipment could do that. Any one of them could have done it 120 years ago. I think you loose sight of the fact that people like Storms, Fleischmann, Mizuno and Bockris use expensive, off-the-shelf equipment, whereas you are battling to make this work with homemade, shoestring equipment. They bulldoze away problems that you are struggling with. You are trying to reinvent the wheel; they drive Porsches. The feedback thermostat controlled you told Ed Wall about was remarkably good -- very clever. But the thermostat in Mizuno's $5,000 cooler is way better. You cannot compete with engineers at the instrument companies, who have decades of experience, big development laboratories, thousands of installed customers, and carte blanche funds to build the fanciest instrument with the best parts money can buy. If the purpose of this research was to invent cheap, clever, homemade calorimeters, you would be vying for first place, but that goal is irrelevant to cold fusion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:45:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31567; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:44:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:44:28 -0800 Message-ID: <20000129174416.18601.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:44:16 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Mizuno photos on Web To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"T66FK.0.ti7.tRoau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good photos. I especially like the ratty anode mesh---real lab science. Only the lower 25% to 30% of the anode contributes appreciable current to the electrolyte, if this is the actual geometry during the run. However, the important consideration, if one wants a plasma discharge at the cathode but not at the anode, is that the active anode area be many times larger than the cathode area. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:00:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05651; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:59:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:59:32 -0800 Message-ID: <20000129175928.11244.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:59:28 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"RxMGu1.0.8O1.3goau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: mrand wrote: > Ok. At Jean-Louis' http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp3.htm , see > the scope pictures at the bottom, the output scope pictures are indicating > 4.65kV ac 114ma (phase angle accounted for) to the glow panel that is > emitting cold plasma. The input is 30Vdc 1.58A. If these numbers are > correct, how can you tap this apparent ou energy? [snip] I looked again at the the page. My observations: 1. The nearly 180 deg phase difference between V and I indicates, if Naudin's sketch and photo correctly illustrate the connections used, and if he used the same signal polarity on both channels of his oscilloscope, says that power was flowing FROM his stepup transformer TO the plasma generator. Power was NOT comming from the plasma. 2. He used the voltage across a 10 ohm resistor to measure current. Oscilloscopes respond to voltage, so he must divide the current signal by 10 ohm to get current. I think Naudin forgot to divide by 10. If you divide his current by 10, then his AC power is a lower than his DC input power. Even though the digital scope trace labels the current axis as "100 mA/div", oscilloscopes do not do this on their own. Naudin had to input the correct conversion factor at some point. I suspect he erred on the entry. 3. Naudin is using an AC capacitive plasma generator. (The same principle operates in the "plasma spheres" one can buy at Radio Shack, novelty stores, etc. It is also used in some plasma sources, usually at much higher frequency.) Anyway, I see no way that Naudin's small plasma generator has enough capacitance to draw anywhere close to 100 mA at his frequency. This reinforces my guess that he erred on the conversion factor. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:08:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08507; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:02:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:02:27 -0800 (PST) From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: rwormus lock-load.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: John Schnurer Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:57:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Re: Specific Methodology and aparatus . Rife technology patent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id KAA08401 Resent-Message-ID: <"imYdh3.0.i42.kioau" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 28-Jan-00, John Schnurer wrote: JS> JS> JS> JS> I would like to know about specific details of such work. There is some history at: http://www.navi.net/~rsc/ look at Rife Researsh section. Also see: http://rife.org Related technology: http://www.papimi.gr/index.htm JS> JS> Are electrodes used to make galvanic or ohmic contact with living JS> organsim? Not in the Bares device. Specimens are exposed to the plasma at a meter or two distance. JS> JS> Specifically, how does the methodology operate? There is no good explanation at this time. Rifes original theory was one of mechanical resonance freqs. Rife did not use audio modulated RF but hetrodyned RF at freqs in the mid Khz range. Have fun, Ron W. JS> JS> JS> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: JS> JS>>> I've been following the career of Dr. James Bare, DC for some time. JS>>> JS>>> Last spring he was awarded a USP # 5 908 441. It is an improvement on JS>>> Royal Rife's technology. When a combination of radio, Khz frequencied are JS>>> combined with audio frequencies and fed into a living system they have the JS>>> interesting ability do cause certain cells to burst. JS>> JS>> ***{Are you saying that RF and audio are required for the effect--i.e., JS>> that when one or the other is used alone, there is no effect? In other JS>> words, the RF and the audio act together? If so, what is the theory of the JS>> interaction? --MJ}*** JS>> JS>> Which cells burst is JS>>> frequency dependent. The system can be tuned to burst the desired cells. JS>>> Dr. Bare's patent covers the use of a gas tube as an antenna to discharge JS>>> this energy into. The patent mentions the combination of the radio JS>>> frequencies with the audio frequencies through the process of JS>>> superhetrodyning to produce a new waves some of which are scalar. The wave JS>>> generator used to power this machine produces square waves. JS>>> JS>>> The site at http://www.rt66.com~rifetech has a discussion of the use of JS>>> these waves in bursting cancer and disease cells and has links to the JS>>> patent and suppliers of the amplifiers and plasma tubes required to JS>>> construct such a machine. JS>>> JS>>> I'm writing to see if any of you vortexians are interested in discussing JS>>> what is happening in that tube. JS>> JS> -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:12:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10049; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:10:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:10:55 -0800 Message-ID: <20000129181052.20664.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:10:52 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"7wcO62.0.tS2.kqoau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very nice work, Ed, and a very surprising result. It looks to me like you have a great calorimeter, now, better than mine was. However, with only a 3% excess heat, like Scott Little I worry about systematic errors. As you know, these are the hardest ones to identify and quantify. You have only 97% heat recovery, which you must correct for when you interpret your data. Do you understand where the 3% goes and if the 3% fraction is stable? I hope you can repeat the Pt effect. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:35:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17901; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:34:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:34:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129133232.007b5ba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:32:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno photos on Web In-Reply-To: <20000129174416.18601.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Jr43m2.0.dN4.fApau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: >Good photos. I especially like the ratty anode mesh---real lab science. Yeah. When I went to take the picture Mizuno said, "That beat up old thing is an embarrassment! You are going to show it to everyone?!?" That Pt mesh costs a ton of money, many thousands, and despite apparences he does keep it clean, etching it overnight in aqua regia and washing it in purified water before use. Still, it's a mess. Aqua regia will eventually dissolve Pt completely, but it takes a while. >Only the lower 25% to 30% of the anode contributes appreciable current to the >electrolyte, if this is the actual geometry during the run. Yup. It is still much larger than the anode though, which is the purpose (as you note.) The anode does protrude out the bottom like that. I thought he would draw it into the cylinder, but that might melt the Pt, and you could not spot the cathode easily through the peephole in the blue Styrofoam insulation. However, the >important consideration, if one wants a plasma discharge at the cathode but >not at the anode, is that the active anode area be many times larger than the >cathode area. Yeah, that's what Mizuno said. Maybe I should put some more pictures up on Monday. Maybe Scott Little can suggest some. I'll post the complete list of titles. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:42:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21493; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:41:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:41:24 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:41:14 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.20000129085309.00715b84 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200001291842.LAA02409 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C@ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"w7V2Y3.0.kF5.KHpau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:53 AM 1/29/00 -0600, you wrote: >Ed, you are going to make history with this move. The first person to post >positive excess heat results from a cold fusion experiment on Vortex AND >supply all the data behind the results AND discuss the particulars of the >experiment openly. > >Congratulations! > I would add that if you (Ed) want input from believers and skeptics alike, how about posting this stuff to the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup too? --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:49:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24345; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:48:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:48:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3893366A.27FE5881 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:50:23 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <20000129181052.20664.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_dhtp1.0.By5.DOpau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > Very nice work, Ed, and a very surprising result. Thanks. Normally, with a poorer calorimeter I would have ignored such a result. Indeed, I did about two years ago when a Pt calibration sample seemed to make similar excess in an isoperibolic calorimeter. After all, how can Pt become active when it can't even absorb deuterium? But months of use and steady elimination of errors has given me enough confidence in this calorimeter to make the results public. If anyone can find an explanation besides CF, I would be most interested. > > > It looks to me like you have a great calorimeter, now, better than mine was. > However, with only a 3% excess heat, like Scott Little I worry about > systematic errors. As you know, these are the hardest ones to identify and > quantify. You have only 97% heat recovery, which you must correct for when > you interpret your data. Do you understand where the 3% goes and if the 3% > fraction is stable? I agree, systematic errors are a pain in the butt. However, it is hard for me to understand why simply turning up the current would cause an error which would eliminate the apparent excess and then have the excess return simply by turning off the current, and have this happen both times it was tried. Can you explain this behavior? The 3% is lost through the lid of the dewar which surrounds the cell. Because this loss is into a constant temperature environment, I would expect it to be rather stable. The fact that the loss was constant between the start and end of the experiment, based on two platinum calibrations, is a good indication of a constant value. In addition, repeated calibrations over a three month period showed a very constant loss value. However, a small but expected zero drift is apparent in the data, but this is too small to raise serious questions. > I hope you can repeat the Pt effect. So do I. I'm trying to. I might add that a Pt sample with 1.2 micron of Pd also produced excess power earlier but at about the 0.18 W level. Use of an aluminum impurity in the electrolyte caused the excess to increase just like McKubre observed with his samples. Although I believe this behavior is real, the value is too small to make a good case. The "bare" Pt sample I described is much better. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 11:00:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28687; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:59:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:59:38 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <001501bf6a82$99c54bc0$0101a8c0 john> From: "John Logajan" To: References: <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C@ix.netcom.com><3891B567.84A0DB7C@ix.netcom.com><3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324@mail.eden.com> <200001291842.LAA02409@smtp.asu.edu> Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:59:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"_-YR_3.0.207.QYpau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > how about posting this stuff to the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup too? I'm sorry but those regulars are too much into ad hominem to make the effort worthwhile. I mean, I'm as skeptical as anybody about CF, but their 24/7 advocacy of the ad hominem attack just ruins the place for any intelligent discussion. The vortex is archived, let them read it there if they are interested. Vortex forum has a no ad hominem rule -- a much better atmosphere for the give and take of scientific controversy -- let the ego forum over on SPF stay there. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com -- 651-633-8918 - - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - I don't endorse any commercial messages that may appear below. - __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 12:19:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA23659; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:15:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:15:50 -0800 From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <38934B99.5DA2 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:20:41 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 28, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rgSrj3.0.bn5.sfqau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's New wrote: > > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 28 Jan 00 Washington, DC > > 1. THE STATE OF SCIENCE: A SUCCESS STORY FOR A JOINT EFFORT. > "To accelerate the march of discovery across all disciplines of > science and technology, my budget includes an unprecedented $3 > billion increase in the 21st Century Research Fund, the largest > increase in civilian research in a decade." It came toward the > end of the longest State-of-the-Union speech in history, and went > unremarked upon by the media, but the President's call reflected > three years of intense lobbying by scientists. Three years ago, > President Clinton's budget request marked five straight years of > decline in science investment. On 4 Mar 97, representatives of > 23 scientific, mathematical and engineering societies met with > reporters to call for an across-the-board increase in research > (WN 7 Mar 97). They stressed the interconnectedness of modern > science. APS President D. Allan Bromley predicted that economic > growth would pay for the increase. That message has gotten > through to the White House. Now we must convince Congress. > > 2. THE STATE OF THE WORLD: MAKING EARTH A SAFER PLANET. In his > initiative-laden speech, President Clinton stressed the need to > continue reducing nuclear arsenals and help Russia safeguard its > remaining weapons and materials. He called for development of a > missile defense, while preserving the ABM treaty, and pleaded for > a constructive dialogue on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. He > "put to rest" the notion that you can't expand the economy while > protecting the environment and declared global warming to be the > greatest environmental challenge of the new century. > > 3. SPY HYSTERIA: DOE PREPARING TO ANNOUNCE COLOR-CODED BADGES. > A DOE spokesperson said the new policy is "not ready to be > released to the public." According to our information, the new > badge rules will go into effect at all DOE labs, not just the > weapons labs, and are to be worn by all employees. The color > will not signify level of security clearance, but whether the > person is a citizen. Their country of origin will be displayed > prominently on the grounds that people should know who they're > dealing with. Perhaps employees could also wear religious icons. > > 4. TRAINING PSYCHICS: IT'S HARD TO SEE WHERE THIS IS HEADED. > According to the New York Times this morning, New York City's > Human Resources Administration has been recruiting and training > welfare recipients to work as telephone psychics. The minimum > starting salary is $10 per hour plus bonuses, and you can work at > home. Had the HRA looked further ahead, however, it would have > seen that there's not much of a future for telephone psychics. > They are suffering rapid technological displacement by Internet > psychics. Unfortunately, they never seem to see it coming. > > 5. MARS: EARTHLINGS REPORT A MYSTERIOUS MARTIAN SIGNAL. Could > this be the vanished Mars Polar Lander trying to call home? > > THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's > and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 12:32:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16634; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:30:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:30:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000129143121.00715e98 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:31:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000129122243.007af630 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000129091203.0070d79c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WzbNB1.0.q34.Qtqau" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:22 PM 1/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Humble is good, but I hope the experience has not robbed you of common >sense. >You are trying to >reinvent the wheel; they drive Porsches. You're real good at spreading the BS on so thick that it seems to cover everything, Jed. If there was a company making calorimeter SYSTEMS like we're using, I would agree with you wholeheartedly...and I would be using one. However, all of us in this game are forced to do the SYSTEM engineering on these calorimeters ourselves. I'm using nearly as many off-the-shelf components as the next guy. For example, I'm using an expensive power analyzer to measure the input power, a computer equipped with 16-bit 16 channel data acquisition card to measure and record the data, a FMI constant-displacement pump to create the flow, etc. etc. ALL of us in this game have necessarily built our own calorimeter enclosures, our own water temperature probes, and our own heat exchangers. THAT's where the biggest potential for systematic errors lies. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 13:23:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03220; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:22:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:22:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129162228.007d1c70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:22:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000129143121.00715e98 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000129122243.007af630 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000129091203.0070d79c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aDZJO2.0.Eo.oerau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >You're real good at spreading the BS on so thick that it seems to cover >everything, Jed. Nonsense. You need to get out more, and look at what other people in this field have accomplished. If there was a company making calorimeter SYSTEMS like >we're using, I would agree with you wholeheartedly...and I would be using >one. However, all of us in this game are forced to do the SYSTEM >engineering on these calorimeters ourselves. Actually, Thermonetics does make a calorimeter system, and many engineering firms will design one for you. There may be others available off the shelf. Calorimetry is common in industrial and medical applications. In any case, my point is that the people at places like SRI, EPRI, Technova, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Tokyo Inst. of Technology, Osaka U., and Los Alamos know MUCH more about engineering calorimeter systems than you do. (And MUCH, MUCH more than I do, for that matter.) For you to compare your skills to them, and to imagine that you are on a level playing field is absurd. I'm using nearly as many >off-the-shelf components as the next guy. No, you are not. I have seen photos of your equipment and of the equipment in these other places, and I assure you, they are buying tens of thousands in ready-made equipment while you are putting stuff together by yourself. Ed Storms gave me a price list of the components in his calorimeter. Mizuno got his equipment from the NHE. For example, I'm using an >expensive power analyzer to measure the input power, a computer equipped >with 16-bit 16 channel data acquisition card to measure and record the >data, a FMI constant-displacement pump to create the flow, etc. etc. Okay, so your input power is well measured, but I am sure your flowmeter does not hold a candle to the ones devised by SRI and by Ed Storms. (Unless you have improved the flow meter since I last looked at your setup.) And I am sure your constant temperature environment is nowhere near as good as the clean room at Mitsubishi, the SRI lab, or the commercial "incubator" enclosure Mizuno uses. All of the major parameters at the big labs can be measured 1, 2 and even 3 orders of magnitude better than you can -- because they have thrown money at the problems, not because they all are much better at engineering than you are. Although some of them are far better than you. Don't kid yourself about that! Fleischmann and Miles wrote the book on electrochemistry calorimetry. Fleischmann's instructions at the NHE are 500 pages long. Bockris brought in the top expert in Texas to design his calorimeter. Furthermore, people like Fleischmann are not a impressed by the dual mode calorimeter design, which I believe you are using. They say it is too complex and trouble prone. He wrote: "Of course, what might happen if we enclose an isoperibolic calorimeter inside a flow calorimeter is anybody's guess. All that one can say for certain is that the performance of the isoperibolic calorimeter must be degraded. This seems to me to be a singularly pointless experiment." ALL >of us in this game have necessarily built our own calorimeter enclosures, >our own water temperature probes, and our own heat exchangers. That is totally incorrect. Only Ed Storms builds some of his own stuff, but mostly he buys it. The temperature probes and data interface at the big labs I have seen come from HP and they cost $16,000. They are good to 0.001 deg C across a wide temperature range, with incredible stability over time. You *cannot* build anything that good on your own. >THAT's >where the biggest potential for systematic errors lies. Yes, and these errors are beaten back a couple orders of magnitude at the big name labs. Not in Mizuno's lab, obviously. He is not concerned about calorimetry accuracy. Maybe he should be. Your contributions to this field have been welcome, and you know much more about control electronics than I do, but if you think for one minute that you are in the same class as McKubre, Storms or Fleischmann in the calorimetry business, you are extremely presumptuous, and you do not understand what they have accomplished, or what kind of instruments they use. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 13:26:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05312; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:25:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:25:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129162519.007a06f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:25:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <200001291842.LAA02409 smtp.asu.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.20000129085309.00715b84 mail.eden.com> <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vqsBc3.0.wI1.Qhrau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: >I would add that if you (Ed) want input from believers and skeptics alike, >how about posting this stuff to the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup too? I do not see any point to that, but if you feel like doing it go ahead. I will leave the Storms paper on my web page indefinitely, since it takes up little space. You can refer people to the paper and the archives of this discussion group. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 13:27:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05817; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:26:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:26:08 -0800 Message-ID: <38935B4F.60D6CF0F ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:27:49 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C@ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <200001291842.LAA02409@smtp.asu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"s0Aac2.0.nQ1.lhrau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn, I would be happy to post the information anywhere it is allowed. How would I go about getting it on sci.physics fusion? Ed Lynn Kurtz wrote: > At 08:53 AM 1/29/00 -0600, you wrote: > > >Ed, you are going to make history with this move. The first person to post > >positive excess heat results from a cold fusion experiment on Vortex AND > >supply all the data behind the results AND discuss the particulars of the > >experiment openly. > > > >Congratulations! > > > > I would add that if you (Ed) want input from believers and skeptics alike, > how about posting this stuff to the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup too? > > --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 13:58:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12261; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:56:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:56:50 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:07:27 -0500 Message-ID: <20000129220727656.AAA248 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"hUDiA3.0.R_2.Y8sau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael S. writes: >2. He used the voltage across a 10 ohm resistor to measure current. >Oscilloscopes respond to voltage, so he must divide the current signal by 10 >ohm to get current. I think Naudin forgot to divide by 10. If you divide his >current by 10, then his AC power is a lower than his DC input power. Even >though the digital scope trace labels the current axis as "100 mA/div", >oscilloscopes do not do this on their own. Naudin had to input the correct >conversion factor at some point. I suspect he erred on the entry. > >3. Naudin is using an AC capacitive plasma generator. (The same principle >operates in the "plasma spheres" one can buy at Radio Shack, novelty stores, >etc. It is also used in some plasma sources, usually at much higher >frequency.) Anyway, I see no way that Naudin's small plasma generator has >enough capacitance to draw anywhere close to 100 mA at his frequency. This >reinforces my guess that he erred on the conversion factor. > > >===== >Michael J. Schaffer This is where I am evidently getting confused, I guess. The DC input power is fed, I'm supposing, as a series of high speed, square wave pulses into the step-up transformer. The output from the transformer, in my mind, should still be DC. While the voltage may look like AC because it is sinusoidal, it is still a positive voltage throughout the wavelength of the pulse. The photos even indicate that the voltage is measured as VDC, and the value of the voltage throughout the waveform never falls below zero. I'm also supposing that the waveform is sinusoidal, as opposed to square waved, after the transformer because of the rise and fall time that occurs in the transformer as the voltage inductively rises and collapses through the core. Is this use of the term AC in this case merely a conventionally used misnomer, or is my entire understanding of AC wrong? I don't have a good picture of what the theory is behind flyback transformers, and this may be the trouble. Thanks for the help. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:08:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15624; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:07:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:07:16 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:17:57 -0500 Message-ID: <20000129221757312.AAA257 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"GOPnX1.0.2q3.KIsau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Lynn, > >I would be happy to post the information anywhere it is allowed. How would I >go about getting it on sci.physics fusion? > >Ed It's a bit like sticking your head in a grinder, Ed. It might be better if someone who is on sci.physics.fusion could relay some of the more intelligent responses to the Vortex group. It's your head, of course, so do what you like. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:24:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22386; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:22:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:22:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129172151.0079c580 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:21:51 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Storms data on Web page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3UQ5C.0.gT5.SWsau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I uploaded the spreadsheet data from Ed Storms into my home page, in two formats: 1. In the original .zip file as received. The format is Excel 5.0 file for the Mac. 2. In ASCII delimited with commas. I do not have Excel. When I opened it with Microsoft Works, it converted imperfectly, reporting 61 errors because cells were "too complex" and for other reasons. Quattro Pro seemed to do a better job. It changed the names of variables, inserting an underline. The file names are Active-Pt.zip and Active-Pt-quattro-pro.txt. As for how to download them . . . I suppose you could do it the old fashioned way, with FTP starting at my Web page top page: http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com You select them from the list. Or you can select: http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Active-Pt.zip . . . and your browser should automatically go into download mode. When you select: http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Active-Pt-quattro-pro.txt . . . the whole kit and caboodle displays on the screen, where you can cut and paste it if you like. The Web page seems rather busy today. I tried converting the spreadsheet to HTML, because I can. It looks nice but the file is 1.3 MB, and it's only 0.2 MB in ASCII. I could upload it in HTML or some other format if people want it. I expect someone out there is better at converting and formatting Excel files for display. You could e-mail me an HTML or ASCII version to upload. I have not examined this data and I do now know what it means. My only comment is that Column A appears to be Minutes Elapsed from start of experiment, in minutes and decimal fractions of minutes. It isn't Time of Day in any of the Julian date schemes I know or, or that Quattro Pro and Microsoft Works know of. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:36:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27305; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:35:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:35:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129173434.007a02e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:34:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000129115907.0079b520 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X7BA_1.0.Yg6.Lisau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >It is much easier to measure the difference between 27.0 >and 27.3 watts than it is to measure the difference between 0.010 and 0.030 >watts . . . I should acknowledge that both tasks are tricky, and Ed has done a great job. Anything under a half watt is difficult to measure. When you get down below a tenth watt things really get dicy, because background noise from bubbles becomes significant and you get problems with with heat leaking out of unexpected places in unexpected ways. Actually, if the overall input power is 5 or 10 watts, it can be a little easier. In other words, distinguishing 5.00 from 5.02 can be easier than 0.01 from 0.03, according to Miles and others. That's why I say the absolute power level of the excess heat can be more of a problem than the total input power level. It is a slight oversimplification to declare everything below 3% "very difficult." Measuring the difference between 100 W and 102 W is easier than it sounds, even though this is only a 2% difference. Of course, all else being equal, lower input and higher i/o ratio do make things easier. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:50:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07274; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:49:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:49:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129174908.007a11f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:49:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms data on Web page In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000129172151.0079c580 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"SlSW01.0.Un1.-vsau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On second thought, I might as well upload the whole HTML file. Someone might find it easier to read. It only takes a minute with this ADSL connection. The Web page space is filling up rapidly! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:53:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10946; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:51:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:51:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129175102.007a2a00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:51:02 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mizuno visit list of photos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"USzh43.0.gg2.pxsau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: List of electronic photographs I could upload a few more . . . Not much space. April 9, 1999, Jed's Y2K bug July 1 -- July 7 Vacation photos. Why not? Taken in Yamaguchi prefecture, Oshima island, Kuka township. The time stamps are 14 hours off on the vacation photos. The photos taken in Sapporo have the correct date and time stamp. July 1 Image 1 -- 4 Retaining wall and drainage system for terraced fields. The sign in figure 1 explains that construction on this wall system began sometime between 1333 and 1390 and ended around the year 1600. Image 10 -- 12 This shows an interesting phenomenon. There is a stream in the mountain which has been lined with concrete formed in steps for a couple hundred meters. Somehow, the steps cause the water to come in bursts. A physicist cousin of mine stopped and stared at this for a good half an hour. (It doesn't take much to amuse a physicist.) July 5 Image 5 A rooftop water heater seen from behind. Image 7 -- 14 An abandoned house in the neighborhood, next to a new road (image 15). Some owners have moved down to the valley, but most have died in their children have left for the cities. Rural districts in Japan suffer from severe, long-term social and economic decline. There are no jobs, so the younger generation has moved to the cities. Terraced agriculture calls for immense amounts of dangerous labor and it cannot compete with imported food from the U.S., Australia and South America. Some of the terraces are hundreds of years old, but when they are abandoned, they crumble in a generation. July 12 -- 14. Hokkaido National University, Sapporo, department of engineering July 12 Image 4 Jed's equipment on Katagiri's desk. Katagiri is a fourth your engineering student who is doing the mass spectroscopy with Mizuno's quadrupole spectrometer. Image 5 -- 8 Flow calorimeter cell Image 9 -- 10 Neutron detector, on loan from Eichi Yamaguchi of NTT. It is placed on top of the incubator. Image 11 -- 14 Pump and cooler. Cooler is remaindered from the NHE. Image 23 Joule heater. It is rather dirty so it is never left in place during a glow discharge experiment. Image 24 Tungsten cathodes with lead wires attached. Image 26 Platinum mesh electrode partly sprung open to reveal cathode. In this case the cathode was in the middle of the anode mesh, but other cases Mizuno and Ohmori both cavalierly shoved the cathode well below the anode, "to avoid a short circuit." Obviously they are not very concerned about geometry! Most unusual for electrochemists. Image 29 The plastic plug to the flow calorimeter cell. Image 30 The 1-liter cell for the bomb calorimeter. "Vidrex.P" is a trade name for Pyrex. The vessel weighs exactly 500 grams. It is encased in blue Styrofoam, as shown in a later photograph. The white object on the bottom is the stirrer. The murky gunk is some chemical of unknown etiology formed during glow discharge, which Mizuno put aside carefully and will later investigate. Image 31 Right: the 1-liter bomb calorimeter cell. Left: an electrochemically closed, clean cell used to look for transmutation products. The white tube on the top right acts as an emergency relief valve in case the recombiner fails. It is weak and it pops off under pressure. Image 33 The closed, clean cell with the top off turned upside down to reveal the anode and cathode. The cathode is palladium. The anode is a platinum mesh which extends out of the water, so that the exposed portion acts as a recombiner. The design of this cell is simple but ingenious. Image 36 -- 37 Left: Mizuno's assistant Tomako Kawasaki. Right: Mizuno, preparing electrolyte. Unfortunately, I was not able to make a video of the electrolyte preparation process. As it turns out, I may not have made a video of anything. Image 43 Looking into the cooler. This instrument is amazingly stable. Image 49 -- 52 The hallway outside Mizuno's lab. Like most Japanese universities and many corporations the laboratory and the surroundings are filthy, not air conditioned, and filled with piles of debris, including ashtrays and charcoal cookers used for outdoor picnics (image 52). I think it is impossible to established or maintain real cleanliness in this kind of environment. Contamination is a certainty, although by heroic efforts Mizuno and Ohmori appear to have reduced it to remarkable levels by using getter cathodes and other techniques. Their mass spectrometers shown low levels of contamination, and after many weeks of electrolysis the gold cathodes were amazingly clean. I thought they had not been used yet! Image 54 The data collection computer display just after a bomb calorimeter run is completed. The heat decay curve after the run should taken into account for maximum accuracy. Actually, it does not change significantly from one run to the next, but Mizuno measures in every time anyway. Image 57 The bomb calorimeter mounted in the incubator, with a mercury thermometer on the right. Image 58 The shunt behind the power supplies. Image 59 An ancient analog ammeter used to double check the power supplies and data collection equipment. Image 61 The bomb calorimeter cell wrapped in a blue Styrofoam box and placed on the Yamato magnetic stirrer. Note the peep hole near the bottom of the blue Styrofoam. Image 63 Bomb calorimeter and lunch. Image 64 -- 68 Views around the room, which serves as office, laboratory, library and storage space for three people: Mizuno, Kawasaki, and Katagiri. It is roughly four meters by six meters in floor space (~220 square feet). The ceiling over the sink used to leak in rainwater, but that has been fixed. Image 69 Close-up of the tungsten cathodes in the bomb calorimeter before electrolysis. The edges are still square. After electrolysis they will be worn down. Image 73 Power being turned up to 150 volts. Image 74 The blue Styrofoam leftover from making the bomb calorimeter. It is left the hallway under to signs that say "danger, fire prohibited" and "danger explosives" Image 75 -- 76 Another experiment, unrelated to cold fusion, tucked into a corner of the lab. This has something to do with corrosion, Mizuno's original field of expertise. Image 80 -- 88 Interesting information about isotopic appear samples offered by chemical company in Japan. The material originates at Oak Ridge and it is frightfully expensive. Pd-104 costs $66 per milligram. Sn-115 costs $1700 per mg. Image 89 -- 92 Mizuno's quadrupole spectrometer, next to Katagiri's desk. I mean it is literally Mizuno's; he bought it. The Japanese government cannot spare $20,000. Image 92 -- 93 Tungsten cathode after electrolysis. It has been worn down. Image 96 -- 97 Kawasaki and Katagiri. Image 98 -- 99 The Japanese government cannot afford to repair the concrete either, and the stairs are rusted and tilted to one side. Image 101 One of the many engineering department parking lots. This has not changed in 20 years. There are thousands of bicycles on campus. By the end of his freshman year, a Japanese college student should know how to ride a bicycle while lighting a cigarette and talking on a cell phone -- with a girlfriend riding side saddle on the back. The only problem I ever had doing that was when her umbrella became tangled in the back wheel. July 13 Image 1 -- 2 The pond next to the engineering department. Image 3 -- 7 The high-pressure cell, which is still under construction. Image 8 The bomb calorimeter cell with the Styrofoam partly open. Image 13 The quadrupole mass spectrometer. Image 16 -- 18 The pen recorder data from Mizuno's heat after death event in April 1991. Image 19 -- 24 The anode and cathode use in experiments on July 12, somewhat worse for wear. July 14 Image 2 Ohmori's materials. Top: broken, clean Pyrex glass, used to score cathode surface. Middle: cathode and lead wire. Bottom: beat up quartz glass cell. See Ohmori paper figure 1. The indentations toward the bottom (right side of picture) were made at the factory. They help hold the anode in place. Image 3 Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tomako Kawasaki Image 5 An abandoned experiment in Ohmori's laboratory. Nobody seems to know what this is about. Image 6 Ohmori's workbench. He has been pushed out of his regular lab into the backroom of this abandoned experiment, ostensibly because the cold fusion experiment might cause some danger to students, but actually because it is an embarrassment to the University. Image 7 Calibration heater power supplies. Image 8 Glow discharge power supplies. Image 11 Ohmori's cell partially assembled with no electrolyte. Image 14 Ohmori's pen recorder. He has no computer and at this stage no electronics for the cell at all so even the pen recorder cannot be used. All data collection is manual with alcohol thermometer and a stopwatch -- a mechanical wound stopwatch at that. Image 15 Ohmori's ammeter manufactured in 1960, Yokogawa Electric Works, Ltd. Image 18 -- 19 More shots of the abandoned experiment, which must have cost far more than the university has ever invested in cold fusion. Image 20 -- 25 Jed's hotel room etc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 15:29:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09885; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:28:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:28:11 -0800 Message-ID: <389377EA.8A9AEEA3 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:29:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms data on Web page References: <3.0.6.32.20000129172151.0079c580 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XSDQI1.0.NQ2.BUtau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I uploaded the spreadsheet data from Ed Storms into my home page, in two > formats: > > 1. In the original .zip file as received. The format is Excel 5.0 file for > the Mac. > > 2. In ASCII delimited with commas. I do not have Excel. When I opened it > with Microsoft Works, it converted imperfectly, reporting 61 errors because > cells were "too complex" and for other reasons. Quattro Pro seemed to do a > better job. It changed the names of variables, inserting an underline. > > The file names are Active-Pt.zip and Active-Pt-quattro-pro.txt. As for how > to download them . . . I suppose you could do it the old fashioned way, > with FTP starting at my Web page top page: > > http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com > > You select them from the list. Or you can select: > > http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Active-Pt.zip > > . . . and your browser should automatically go into download mode. When you > select: > > http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Active-Pt-quattro-pro.txt > > . . . the whole kit and caboodle displays on the screen, where you can cut > and paste it if you like. > > The Web page seems rather busy today. > > I tried converting the spreadsheet to HTML, because I can. It looks nice > but the file is 1.3 MB, and it's only 0.2 MB in ASCII. I could upload it in > HTML or some other format if people want it. I expect someone out there is > better at converting and formatting Excel files for display. You could > e-mail me an HTML or ASCII version to upload. > > I have not examined this data and I do now know what it means. My only > comment is that Column A appears to be Minutes Elapsed from start of > experiment, in minutes and decimal fractions of minutes. It isn't Time of > Day in any of the Julian date schemes I know or, or that Quattro Pro and > Microsoft Works know of. > > - Jed Column A is minutes from the start of each set and column B is the total running time from the start of the experiment. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 15:48:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16525; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:46:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:46:55 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF6A6F.BC896BE0.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst Reply-To: "bhorst ieee.org" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Anomalous heat from Pt Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:44:31 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 35 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"CK_P_2.0.424.jltau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In looking at Figure 5 of Ed's paper, it struck me that the excess power vs current could be fitted with a parabolic nearly as well as a line. In particular, if the parabolic has the form P = I*I*R, where R is about .1 ohm, nearly all predicted points are bracketed by some of the actual measurements. The paper does not give details of exactly how the input voltage and current were measured. If the voltage was measured directly across the cell (instead of where the wires enter the calorimeter where the voltage would be a bit higher) there would be an additional small resistance heater unaccounted for. All it would take is .1 ohm, which could come from a few inches of small guage wire or a connector. Ed, could you give us more information on how the cell voltage was measured? -- Bob Horst -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [SMTP:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 7:28 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Anomalous heat from Pt Dear All, I would like to invite the resident skeptics and curious to view the results of a successful cold fusion experiment, in particular a study of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect. A brief paper in MS-Word 6.0 describing the work can be found at > http://www.amasci.com/weird/Pt_en_pr.rtf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:38:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28630; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:37:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:37:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000129122243.007af630 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000129091203.0070d79c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:34:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"ipzXO2.0.B_6.JNvau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott Little wrote: > >>Jed, I agree that it is possible for your scenario to be the case. In >>fact, before I had built and operated some 10 different calorimeter >>designs, I would have been willing to bet that you were right. > >Well, either I am or I am not. This isn't rocket science, after all. > > > However, >>the painful experience of personally staring at small systematic errors, >>which usually happen to run around a few percent of the total input power, >>has humbled me considerably. > >Humble is good, but I hope the experience has not robbed you of common >sense. Ed Storms is working with $15,000 of top-notch, off-the-shelf >equipment, and he is measuring the difference between 27.0 and 27.3 watts. >Any trained scientist with the proper equipment could do that. Any one of >them could have done it 120 years ago. > >I think you loose sight of the fact that people like Storms, Fleischmann, >Mizuno and Bockris use expensive, off-the-shelf equipment, whereas you are >battling to make this work with homemade, shoestring equipment. They >bulldoze away problems that you are struggling with. You are trying to >reinvent the wheel; they drive Porsches. The feedback thermostat controlled >you told Ed Wall about was remarkably good -- very clever. But the >thermostat in Mizuno's $5,000 cooler is way better. You cannot compete with >engineers at the instrument companies, who have decades of experience, big >development laboratories, thousands of installed customers, and carte >blanche funds to build the fanciest instrument with the best parts money >can buy. > >If the purpose of this research was to invent cheap, clever, homemade >calorimeters, you would be vying for first place, but that goal is >irrelevant to cold fusion. ***{It isn't irrelevant at all. As I have tried to point out to you before, without success, the more electronic gear you cram into a lab, the more complex the electrical environment becomes, and the possibilities for exotic feedback to generate seemingly anomalous effects increase exponentially. By keeping what he is doing simple and close to first principles, Scott has an excellent chance of doing better work than people with fancier equipment. Many of history's greatest breakthroughs came from labs run by people without PhD's who were operating on shoestring budgets, and many crackpot theories enunciated by PhD's have been shot down by such people. That's why, ultimately, this debate is going to be settled by focusing on the facts and on the logic which flows from those facts, rather than on credentials, training, research budget, or the price tags that were originally on the equipment. Frankly, I wish you would stop bringing up this kind of stuff. It is manifestly irrelevant to the issues before us. Like it or not, you are going to have to disprove Scott's facts or his logic, if you are going to prevent reasonable members of this group from taking his results seriously. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:55:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20968; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:54:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:54:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129205234.0079b310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:52:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The economics of el-cheapo machines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GnjC63.0.L75.Ddvau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't like to belabor the point, but these gasoline generators work better than people here realize. A fellow who lives up the street has been using one for 10 or 20 years. His daughter's life depends upon it. She requires some kind of medical treatment a couple of times a day with a machine. (Something like dialysis, I guess.) When the power goes out for more than a few hours, he cranks up this beat-up old gasoline generator. It always works. If we were out in the countryside it would make sense for him to buy a larger, more reliable one, but we are in the city two miles from the hospital center. In an emergency the police could bring her to the hospital or the fire station where they have generators. Someone suggested that a diesel engine would be better, and a gas one will only last two months running continuously. I see two problems with this: 1. It is hard to buy diesel fuel around here. I know; I used to have a diesel automobile. It would even harder when most of the gas stations are closed during a power failure. I had to drive quite a way to find regular gas last week after the power failed. I would not keep large amounts of fuel around anyway. I'll buy it when the snow is coming on, and burn it in the car later on if the power does not fail. Again, that's a rational choice for an urban dweller a block away from two gas stations. 2. I am pretty sure these machines run longer than two months because the warrantee lasts longer than that. If the thing fails, I'll bet Home Depot would swap it out no questions asked. Finally, suppose for the sake of argument it does only last 60 days. I expect to use it no more than three days per year. So it would last 20 years, like the one up the street, and cost me $22 per year. That's a trivial price to pay for insurance against the cold and dark. Why pay twice as much, when all you need is bare bones insurance? I am nattering on about this because I think it is an interesting look at different consumer strategies in different situations (city versus country), and the opening up of the energy market. People buy cheap, light-use equipment for good reasons. Rational economic needs are satisfied. The companies are not ripping off customers. Machines should not always be built to the highest standards for a long service life. When the machine is intended for occasional use, or when the technology is rapidly evolving it makes sense to trade off quality for a low cost. With computers & printers nowadays, I think most people find it better to buy a cheap model for less than $1,500, and to upgrade every two or three years. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:13:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14703; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:11:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:11:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200001291842.LAA02409 smtp.asu.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.20000129085309.00715b84 mail.eden.com> <389277BC.2DA2ED77 ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C@ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:51:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"QwQpC.0.bb3.ktvau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 08:53 AM 1/29/00 -0600, you wrote: > >>Ed, you are going to make history with this move. The first person to post >>positive excess heat results from a cold fusion experiment on Vortex AND >>supply all the data behind the results AND discuss the particulars of the >>experiment openly. >> >>Congratulations! >> > >I would add that if you (Ed) want input from believers and skeptics alike, >how about posting this stuff to the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup too? > >--Lynn ***{Lynn, there are lots of skeptics here, if by "skeptics" you refer to people who will not hesitate to poke holes in "over unity" claims. The difference, I think, between this group and spf is that most of the people here have the good sense to realize that the proper goal of argumentation is to find the truth, not to make oneself look good. Thus the debates that occur here tend to focus on substantive matters, and not on personalities. For that reason I think Ed Storms, whom I perceive as a sensitive soul, will be far more comfortable discussing this matter here than on spf. Indeed, I think he would be aghast at the behavior in that group, if he were ever to have the bad luck to get drawn into a discussion there. That is not to say that important insights are not available on spf, of course. Unfortunately, you have to have a hide as thick as a rhino's in order to obtain those benefits. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:27:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23508; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:19:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:19:33 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno visit list of photos Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:30:16 -0500 Message-ID: <20000130023016609.AAA114 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"GVWaz2.0.Al5.r-vau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >List of electronic photographs > >I could upload a few more . . . Not much space. Did you actually upload them? I don't see them on your webpage. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:28:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25053; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:19:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:19:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3893CB61.1F3E bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:25:53 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The economics of el-cheapo machines References: <3.0.6.32.20000129205234.0079b310 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t1F6k2.0.J76.C_vau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I don't like to belabor the point, but these gasoline generators work > better than people here realize. A fellow who lives up the street has been > using one for 10 or 20 years. His daughter's life depends upon it. Then he should have at least two, regardless of how reliable they are. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:38:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA20007; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:17:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:17:04 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: The economics of el-cheapo machines Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:27:45 -0500 Message-ID: <20000130022745953.AAA268 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"BReMX3.0.Uu4.Vyvau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gotta agree on all points. I checked out some prices for a 4kw diesel, and some of them were around $4,000. You could buy eight of your little gas burners for that price, and power your entire block. The warranty was for 12 months or 2000 hrs. runtime (less than three months), whichever comes first, meaning by the time you need your first oil change, your warranty is up. Unlike Mitch's assertion that they are cleaner and more reliable, I can tell you from experience that they are neither. They could be more clean and reliable with the constant attention of a trained engineer, at $25,000 per annum, but Jed is obviously not up to that. Without the constant attention they become quite quickly one of the dirtiest things on earth. While CO production may be lower, particle emissions from deisels are choking Mexico City, Santiago, Chile and other third world major cities because the people run them constantly, and can't keep up with the maintenence. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:43:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA12542; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:42:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:42:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129214029.0079a950 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:40:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000129122243.007af630 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000129091203.0070d79c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-QuPL3.0.p33.8Kwau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{It isn't irrelevant at all. As I have tried to point out to you before, >without success, the more electronic gear you cram into a lab, the more >complex the electrical environment becomes, and the possibilities for >exotic feedback to generate seemingly anomalous effects increase >exponentially. . . . Does it not occur to you, Mitch, that the people at places like Mitsubishi and Los Alamos are aware of things like this? I mean, they build atomic bombs, and manufacture and test the most advanced equipment on earth at these places. They know quite a lot about electrical noise, feedback and related issues. You might say they wrote the book about it. The instruments in the Mitsubishi CF clean room for example, run on battery power, isolated from the mains. You seem to think these these people have no idea what they are doing, and you are the only person on earth who realizes that electrical noise is a potential problem and that instruments must be tested carefully before, during and after a run. You remind me of the Y2K Chicken Littles who believed that power companies were incapable of testing their computers before the clock turned over on Dec. 31, 1999. In fact, as I pointed out last December, they set the clocks ahead to the year 2000 last April. They are NOT fools. Professionals who have doing a job all their adult lives do understand the fundamentals, they do know how to do their jobs, and they sure as hell do understand electrical noises problems. We have never had a problem in CF with expert scientists doing their jobs wrong or making dumb mistakes. It never happens. The problem has always been when scientists try to do *someone else's job*. Plasma physicists stepped outside of their narrow specialty and botched CF experiments in 1989. Mizuno and Fleischmann screwed up the nuclear measurments. The jerks at MIT had no business going near electrochem. or calorimetry, and Steve Jones at BYU held up a Pd cathode in his bare hands to show it to the television cameras in Japan. The NHE was staffed entirely by engineers, with not a single day of experience doing basic research science between them. The problems are always caused by ignorant people, not by experts doing what they have been trained to do. The successful replications have nearly all been done by teams of experts, versed in materials science, electrochem., calorimetry and other relevant fields, working in cooperation at places like Los Alamos, not in isolation. >By keeping what he is doing simple and close to first >principles, Scott has an excellent chance of doing better work than people >with fancier equipment. That is complete, 100% nonsense. I suspect you have no idea what the people with the fancy equipment have done. And yes, they do know first principles. >Many of history's greatest breakthroughs came from >labs run by people without PhD's who were operating on shoestring budgets. . . I think that's a myth. In any case, this particular breakthrough came from Martin Fleischmann, FRS, and Stan Pons, two of the world's top electrochemists, and both "painfully conventional scientists." As far as I know, the shoestring brigades have contributed nothing to cold fusion. Some professors like Dash and Cravens, working on a tight budget, have contributed, but they have PhDs and mainstream credibility. The other historical examples of so-called "fringe" people inventing things that I have examined have turned out to be cases where mainstream, rock solid people who happened to lack creditials came in and outperformed the professionals at their own game. The Wright brothers and Robert Koch are classic examples. They were as mainstream as can be, and well-educated in all relevant branches of science. >Like it or not, you are going to have to disprove Scott's facts or his >logic, if you are going to prevent reasonable members of this group from >taking his results seriously. I take his results perfectly seriously. He has demonstrated that it is much harder to replicate Mizuno than Mizuno thought it would be. If two or three other quality labs like the KRI pull it off, Little's non-replication will mean nothing. If this turns out to as difficult as Pd-D CF, you might as well expect Scott Little to perform open heart surgery by reading a Time-Life do-it-yourself book. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:50:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15091; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:49:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:49:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129214728.007a22f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:47:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno visit list of photos In-Reply-To: <20000130023016609.AAA114 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0h3Xv1.0.jh3.iQwau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >Did you actually upload them? I don't see them on your webpage. You don't? They are at: http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Mizuno-photos.htm Or you can tune into: http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com . . . and see a list of all documents and pictures: Parent Directory 28-Jan-2000 13:39 - Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:48 1.4M The biggie HTML format Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:13 247k Text format Active-Pt.zip 29-Jan-2000 17:13 363k As rec. from Storms Cell in insulation.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:43 71k Fig 1.jpg 28-Jan-2000 15:49 43k Fig 2.jpg 28-Jan-2000 15:49 33k Fig 3.jpg 28-Jan-2000 15:49 30k Fig 4.GIF 28-Jan-2000 15:49 46k Fig 5.GIF 28-Jan-2000 15:49 29k Mizuno-photos.htm 28-Jan-2000 16:43 1k Pt-energy.htm 28-Jan-2000 15:49 10k Unused cathode in ce..> 28-Jan-2000 16:44 419k pix Unused cathodes.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:44 53k pix . . . Used cathode.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:44 368k I do not have an automatic Index to carry you into an HTML page. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:59:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21660; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:57:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:57:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000129215610.0079baf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:56:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The economics of el-cheapo machines In-Reply-To: <3893CB61.1F3E bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000129205234.0079b310 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uOOqt3.0.MI5.rYwau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>A fellow who lives up the street has been >> using one for 10 or 20 years. His daughter's life depends upon it. > > > >Then he should have at least two, regardless of how reliable they are. Not really. She can go for hours without treatment, and we are close to Chamblee fire and police departments. They have chains and emergency trucks; they could always get through somehow, even in the worst snow. Besides, now he could borrow my generator -- I told him. If we were 10 miles out in the countryside and the medical condition was something like seizures which come on unexpectedly and quickly, you would be absolutely right. That would definitely call for two, high quality generators. I would get a built-in gas-fired one and a spare gasoline outside unit. The power company recently installed a built-in unit in house of a friend of mine, up in Norcross, at Peachtree Corners. She did not ask for it, they just showed up at her door and offered to put it in "to enhance reliability." I don't know why they did it. Maybe they know something we don't?!? Maybe they are doing market tests of gas co-gens. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 19:33:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00653; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:32:10 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno visit list of photos Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:42:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20000130034254562.AAA80 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"jOV3x1.0.7A.v2xau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: > Parent Directory 28-Jan-2000 13:39 - > Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:48 1.4M The biggie HTML format > Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:13 247k Text format > Active-Pt.zip 29-Jan-2000 17:13 363k As rec. from Storms > Cell in insulation.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:43 71k > Fig 1.jpg 28-Jan-2000 15:49 43k > Fig 2.jpg 28-Jan-2000 15:49 33k > Fig 3.jpg 28-Jan-2000 15:49 30k > Fig 4.GIF 28-Jan-2000 15:49 46k > Fig 5.GIF 28-Jan-2000 15:49 29k > Mizuno-photos.htm 28-Jan-2000 16:43 1k > Pt-energy.htm 28-Jan-2000 15:49 10k > Unused cathode in ce..> 28-Jan-2000 16:44 419k pix > Unused cathodes.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:44 53k pix . . . > Used cathode.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:44 368k > >I do not have an automatic Index to carry you into an HTML page. Yeah, these I got, but you posted a list of photos from the University etc. that I thought you had uploaded. I guess there isn't enough room. Let us know if you upload those though, they sound interesting too. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 21:14:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23179; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:12:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:12:48 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <002b01bf6ae0$a13fe140$0101a8c0 john> From: "John Logajan" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000129172151.0079c580 pop.mindspring.com> <389377EA.8A9AEEA3@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Storms data on Web page Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:12:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"daHsh1.0.2g5.GXyau" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re: Storms' data Just a few questions to start out. What does the RECOM column represent? What units are measured in the FLOW RATE column? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com -- 651-633-8918 - - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - I don't endorse any commercial messages that may appear below. - __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 06:16:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10023; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:16:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:16:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000130091303.007e73e0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:13:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000128145600.007a45d0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3891ECB9.B007BDA6 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128111440.01e33d34 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vznBp2.0.XS2.bU4bu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:56 PM 1/28/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Since cold fusion began, people have said that platinum with light water is >the ideal control. Supposedly it never produces excess heat. Recently, >however, Dash et al. and Storms have observed significant excess heat from >this system. Being very busy on other serious matters, including in this field, I will just note for completeness and accurace that actually, this is not the entire matter which involves controls and platinum. On the history of what might consistute controls: Palladium with light water was found to have very low level excess heat, such as noted in a followup of the PFC-Phase II study when the data was carefully reexamined - and CF reconfirmed BTW - by Dr. Philip Morrison in ~1992 in his report to MIT Pres. Vest, relevant portions of which were released. (Science and Engineering of Hydrided Metals Series, Volume 2 - "Calorimetric Complications The Examination of the Phase-II Experiment and Other Select Calorimetric Issues", Ed. M. Swartz, JET Technology Press, Wellesley Hills, MA, ISBN 1-890550-02-7 (1999), pages 70-72. [More background info at Swartz, M, "A Method To Improve Algorithms Used To Detect Steady State Excess Enthalpy", Transactions of Fusion Technology, 26, 156-159 (1994), and Swartz, M, "Some Lessons from Optical Examination of the PFC Phase-II Calormetric Curves", Vol. 2, "Proceedings: Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion", 19-1, op. cit. (1993).] That is why we recommend both chemical and joule controls, noise measurements, cooling curves, and other standards. =================================================== On the history of platinum (with contaminants, thereupon) as a possible LENR/CF site: Furthermore, platinum can have low level excess heat, probably due to "contamination" [and another reason for the need of both joule and other chemical controls] as discussed several years ago at Conf-LENR-II (Texas). The error limits reveal a wide range, larger than some other materials, with a mean at very low level values just above zero but with a range extending to below zero to negative heat "gain", as was shown at ICCF-7, too. [Also see Swartz, M., "Possible Deuterium Production From Light Water Excess Enthalpy Experiments using Nickel Cathodes", Journal of New Energy, 3, 68-80 (1996), and Swartz. M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74 (1997).] This is why we recommend both chemical and joule controls and at different times of the run, and have included analysis of several material and structural aspects in our reports. It also further shows the importance of defining materials by their optimal operating point (OOP) http://world.std.com/~mica/jetrefs.html#r&d ]. =================================================== > I think people have assumed that noble metals like platinum >and gold do not absorb significant amounts of hydrogen, so they cannot >produce the cold fusion effect. However, excess heat in Au-H systems were >reported by Ohmori and Enyo years ago, and now we seen signs of heat with >Pt-H. Some people may consider these positive results an embarrassment. >Some may even wish to ignore or cover them up, on the assumption they must >be a mistake. Actually, this is not complete or totally accurate. Also, there are many important material issues here that are sometimes misreported and/or less than well understood. Loading IS an important issue, and platinum and gold dont appear to load as does Pd, etc. There are other important differences about these materials, about which there is not time to further comment. The gold story is very important (similar to the roles of boron and aluminum; much was also covered in several issues of Cold Fusion Times). [Also, Swartz, M, "Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance Using pi-Notch System Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions of the American Nuclear Association, Nashville, Tenn Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 84-85 (1998)]. Mathematics, metallurgy, and engineering are the keys to the universe. ;-)X Hope that helps clarify. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 08:17:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08035; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:16:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:16:53 -0800 Message-ID: <38946459.C69F05B8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:18:38 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms data on Web page References: <3.0.6.32.20000129172151.0079c580 pop.mindspring.com> <389377EA.8A9AEEA3@ix.netcom.com> <002b01bf6ae0$a13fe140$0101a8c0@john> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DZKuS.0.Pz1.qF6bu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > Re: Storms' data > > Just a few questions to start out. > > What does the RECOM column represent? This is the temperature difference between the external recombiner and ambient. The gas line from the cell goes through a recombiner in which is located a thermistor on its way to the oil reservoir. This way I can determine if the internal recombiner is working. The sensitivity of the system was calibrated and energy loss at the 1 mW level can be easily seen. > > > What units are measured in the FLOW RATE column? The flow rate units are g/min of distilled water measured on a scales sensitive to +-0.01 g. Ed Storms > > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com -- 651-633-8918 - > - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - I don't endorse any commercial messages that may appear below. - > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 09:11:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25972; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:10:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:10:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000129214029.0079a950 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000129122243.007af630 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000129091203.0070d79c mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000128235313.0079aa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000128215017.006d4324 mail.eden.com> <94c49sc7rll2pdudgbnv6d7rqrr3lq0rpj 4ax.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C ix.netcom.com> <3891B567.84A0DB7C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:06:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"Bsdfw.0.kL6.m17bu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{It isn't irrelevant at all. As I have tried to point out to you before, >>without success, the more electronic gear you cram into a lab, the more >>complex the electrical environment becomes, and the possibilities for >>exotic feedback to generate seemingly anomalous effects increase >>exponentially. . . . > >Does it not occur to you, Mitch, that the people at places like Mitsubishi >and Los Alamos are aware of things like this? I mean, they build atomic >bombs, and manufacture and test the most advanced equipment on earth at >these places. They know quite a lot about electrical noise, feedback and >related issues. You might say they wrote the book about it. The instruments >in the Mitsubishi CF clean room for example, run on battery power, isolated >from the mains. > >You seem to think these these people have no idea what they are doing, and >you are the only person on earth who realizes that electrical noise is a >potential problem and that instruments must be tested carefully before, >during and after a run. ***{No, Jed. If you would respond to what I actually said rather than stuffing words into my mouth, you might learn something. The fact is that it is you, not I, who insists on speculating about what other people know or do not know, and about their credentials and the sizes of their research budgets. The point that I was making in the remarks which you snipped was that excellent work can be done by people without PhD's who are working on tight budgets with homebrew equipment, and that shoddy work can be done by people with PhD's, massive funding, and the most expensive equipment in the world. Examples to illustrate both sides of this coin are legion, and lead inexorably to one conclusion: your incessant focus on these matters is *irrelevant* to the truth-finding procedure that we are trying to engage in here. You cannot refute Scott Little's results by focusing on his credentials, or on his budget, or on the fact that he built most of his equipment himself, because scientific revolutions have been launched out of labs such as his, and you know that as well as I do. That's why you need to cease introducing these sorts of pejorative and irrelevant arguments into the discussion here, and focus on the science. --MJ}*** You remind me of the Y2K Chicken Littles who >believed that power companies were incapable of testing their computers >before the clock turned over on Dec. 31, 1999. ***{Events in your stream of consciousness--e.g., what I "remind" you of--are irrelevant here. If you want to discuss such topics, I suggest that you see a psychiatrist. --MJ}*** In fact, as I pointed out >last December, they set the clocks ahead to the year 2000 last April. They >are NOT fools. Professionals who have doing a job all their adult lives do >understand the fundamentals, they do know how to do their jobs, and they >sure as hell do understand electrical noises problems. ***{I repeat: you will refute Scott Little's results in one way and one way only--by focusing on the science. Until you succeed in finding an error in his protocol, reasonable people in this group will continue to entertain the possibility that he has failed to find excess heat in every case that he has examined because there was none to be found. It is simply a fact that errors are made everywhere, rather than merely by non-PhD's operating on tight budgets with homebrew equipment. Thus we cannot decide whether Scott made an error by focusing on such concerns. Moreover, THERE AREN'T ANY IFS, ANDS, OR BUTS ABOUT IT. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >We have never had a problem in CF with expert scientists doing their jobs >wrong or making dumb mistakes. It never happens. The problem has always >been when scientists try to do *someone else's job*. Plasma physicists >stepped outside of their narrow specialty and botched CF experiments in >1989. Mizuno and Fleischmann screwed up the nuclear measurments. The jerks >at MIT had no business going near electrochem. or calorimetry, and Steve >Jones at BYU held up a Pd cathode in his bare hands to show it to the >television cameras in Japan. The NHE was staffed entirely by engineers, >with not a single day of experience doing basic research science between >them. The problems are always caused by ignorant people, not by experts >doing what they have been trained to do. The successful replications have >nearly all been done by teams of experts, versed in materials science, >electrochem., calorimetry and other relevant fields, working in cooperation >at places like Los Alamos, not in isolation. ***{Horse manure. Experts make mistakes in their own fields every day, and most of them are honest enough to admit it. It is only amateurs such as yourself who entertain delusions about their infallibility. In any case, this is IRRELEVANT to the question of whether Scott Little made mistakes. If you think he did, then FIND THEM. If you lack the knowledge to do that, then why not have the good grace to shut up about it and leave the discussion to those who have something relevant to contribute? --MJ}*** > > >>By keeping what he is doing simple and close to first >>principles, Scott has an excellent chance of doing better work than people >>with fancier equipment. > >That is complete, 100% nonsense. I suspect you have no idea what the people >with the fancy equipment have done. And yes, they do know first principles. ***{Gad, another report about a stream of consciousness event! Here's a flash for you, Jed: I don't give a hoot in hell about what you "suspect" about my state of knowledge. Nor do I give a hoot in hell about your opinions regarding what unnamed "experts" do or do not know. Such matters are IRRELEVANT to a scientific discussion, and, in fact, bringing them up is, more often than not, the last resort of a scoundrel. --MJ}*** > > >>Many of history's greatest breakthroughs came from >>labs run by people without PhD's who were operating on shoestring budgets. >. . > >I think that's a myth. ***{Tell it to Isaac Newton, or to Leibnitz, or to Thomas Edison, or to the Wright Brothers, or to Edwin Land, or to many others too numerous to name. --MJ}*** In any case, this particular breakthrough came from >Martin Fleischmann, FRS, and Stan Pons, two of the world's top >electrochemists, and both "painfully conventional scientists." As far as I >know, the shoestring brigades have contributed nothing to cold fusion. Some >professors like Dash and Cravens, working on a tight budget, have >contributed, but they have PhDs and mainstream credibility. ***{You assume what is yet to be proven, Jed. It has not been proven that the so called "cold fusion effect" is real. That's what we are arguing about in this group--except, you, of course: you insist on talking about irrelevancies. The fact is that we do not yet know that a breakthrough has occurred. The possibility is open in the minds of reasonable people that, for example, Scott Little has done good work and Pons and Fleischmann, Mizuno, et al., have made errors. While you obviously disagree with that, you make not one whit of progress toward proving it by means of these incessant, divisive, pejorative speculations about credentials, price tags, research budgets, and homebrew equipment. --MJ}*** > >The other historical examples of so-called "fringe" people inventing things >that I have examined have turned out to be cases where mainstream, rock >solid people who happened to lack creditials came in and outperformed the >professionals at their own game. The Wright brothers and Robert Koch are >classic examples. They were as mainstream as can be, and well-educated in >all relevant branches of science. ***{I never said that non-PhD's who launch scientific or technological revolutions were not well-educated, Jed! My point from the beginning has been that the presence of a PhD on a man's resume does not tell us diddley squat about the state of his knowledge. That's why you can't refute Scott Little's results by focusing on his lack of credentials. He may have more relevant knowledge about the workings of the Mizuno type of cell than does Mizuno. (In fact, self-educated men, by and large, tend to have far deeper understanding of their chosen subject matter than do people with formal training in the same area, despite their lack of credentials.) Thus, like it or not, you will refute Scott Little's results in one way only: by finding a substantive technical error in his procedure. Until you do that, your talk about credentials and the like will have no more significance than the sound of the wind blowing. --MJ}*** > > >>Like it or not, you are going to have to disprove Scott's facts or his >>logic, if you are going to prevent reasonable members of this group from >>taking his results seriously. > >I take his results perfectly seriously. He has demonstrated that it is much >harder to replicate Mizuno than Mizuno thought it would be. ***{But Mizuno has a PhD! How could it be much harder than he thought it would be? :-) --MJ}*** If two or three >other quality labs like the KRI pull it off, Little's non-replication will >mean nothing. ***{And if they don't, it will mean everything. --MJ}*** If this turns out to as difficult as Pd-D CF, you might as >well expect Scott Little to perform open heart surgery by reading a >Time-Life do-it-yourself book. ***{Even worse, what if it turns out to be as difficult as flying by flapping your arms? :-) --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 09:11:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25932; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:10:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:10:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000130022745953.AAA268 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:51:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The economics of el-cheapo machines Resent-Message-ID: <"XbOZp3.0.3L6.i17bu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Gotta agree on all points. I checked out some prices for a 4kw diesel, and >some of them were around $4,000. You could buy eight of your little gas >burners for that price, and power your entire block. The warranty was for >12 months or 2000 hrs. runtime (less than three months), whichever comes >first, meaning by the time you need your first oil change, your warranty is >up. Unlike Mitch's assertion that they are cleaner and more reliable, I can >tell you from experience that they are neither. They could be more clean >and reliable with the constant attention of a trained engineer, at $25,000 >per annum, but Jed is obviously not up to that. Without the constant >attention they become quite quickly one of the dirtiest things on earth. ***{This is a political view, not a scientific one. You choose to regard soot--i.e., carbon particles--as "one of the dirtiest things on Earth." Objectively, however, it is just carbon. It falls to the ground in short order, where it becomes incorporated into the biosphere due to the action of microbes. Such things are not a problem because, as I have noted in the past, with continued technological progress--as happens to the extent that the economy is unregulated by government--the efficiencies of industrial processes, including the effeciencies of engines, continue to increase. Since the fuel value of unburned carbon--soot--is utilized by microbes rather than by man, it is, to man, a waste, and the effect of economic competition is to give an advantage to those companies who succeed in reducing it. That is why burning wood for home heating was supplanted by coal, and why coal was supplanted by natural gas; and it is why soot reduction will occur automatically and steadily, if the economy is free. Thus I will let the environmental zealots worry about that particular chimera, and will analyze the choice between an el cheapo piece of gasoline powered junk and a diesel engine the same way industrial corporations do it: by looking at the bottom line. And if you do it that way, the diesel wins hands down. --Mitchell Jones}*** >While CO production may be lower, particle emissions from deisels are >choking Mexico City, Santiago, Chile and other third world major cities >because the people run them constantly, and can't keep up with the >maintenence. ***{This is just silly. Engine maintenance is driven by economics. A person who owns a diesel engine will pay for periodic maintenance whenever he can save more in terms of fuel cost than he will pay for the maintenance. It's as simple as that, and it is a principle that applies just as surely in the third world as in America, and has *nothing whatsoever* to do with the problems in the third world. In point of fact, the people in Mexico City, Santiago, Rio, and other third world cities for the most part live in grinding poverty because they have never lived under capitalism and, thus, have never built up a capital base that could sustain a high standard of living. If the parasites could somehow be removed from their backs--i.e., if third world countries could somehow replace fascism with capitalism rather than with socialism--they would live better than we do in short order, and any discussion of their standards of living which does not focus on that fact misses the point entirely. --MJ}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 11:01:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28934; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:59:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:59:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000130135815.00797530 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:58:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno visit list of photos In-Reply-To: <20000130034254562.AAA80 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_IX9C.0.-37.je8bu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >Yeah, these I got, but you posted a list of photos from the University etc. >that I thought you had uploaded. I guess there isn't enough room. Let us >know if you upload those though, they sound interesting too. I posted the list in case there is something on it you want to see. Let me know and I will e-mail the picture directly to you or upload it to the web site. There is only 10 MB of room on the web site and the pictures are 300 - 400 KB. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 11:25:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02869; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:24:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:24:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000130142234.0079fe20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:22:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms data on Web page In-Reply-To: <38946459.C69F05B8 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000129172151.0079c580 pop.mindspring.com> <389377EA.8A9AEEA3 ix.netcom.com> <002b01bf6ae0$a13fe140$0101a8c0 john> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uEP7i2.0.gi.Y_8bu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >The flow rate units are g/min of distilled water measured on a scales >sensitive to +-0.01 g. To clarify: that's a weight scale, monitored by the computer. The fluid is collected in a beaker sitting on the scale, and dumped when it reaches the top by a siphon. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 12:44:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27944; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:41:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:41:53 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <57.1430cac.25c5fbe6 aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:41:10 EST Subject: Ryberg/Mills To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"XBpd42.0.Wq6.G8Abu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following post from SPF may be of some interest here: Subject: Re: Ryberg/Mills From: J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU (John Farrell) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:50:05 GMT As many of you know, I occasionally read a few Fusion Digests to see what is being discussed. Recently there has been several commentators poking fun at Mills because of the lack of observed Rydberg lines for transitions of the type n = 1 to n = 1/2 (Mills' theory predicts hydrogen atoms with n = 1, n = 1/2, n = 1/3 etc., called hydrinos). These commentators remind me of a statement by Admiral William Leahy, 1945-- "That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The [atomic] bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." The problem with Leahy's comment is that he was an expert in one area of explosives (chemical), but he knew nothing nuclear energies. The same idea applies to those bashing Mills' theory. They are experts in the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum theory; they know and they understand a great deal of experimental data. With this combination they are able to deflect new ideas and to take new hypotheses to task. (This does, of course, fulfill and important role.) For my part, I am in my 36th year teaching quantum mechanics and I believe that I have some knowledge and some capabilities in this area. My physical chemistry students observe the spectrum of hydrogen atoms and record the three lines in the visible portion of the spectrum. They do not observe the UV, far UV, or extreme UV. If they did, I can assure you that they would not observe the n = 1 to n = 1/2 line. Mills' was a brilliant college student here, GPA = 4.0 (max possible = 4.0). He has a perfect photographic memory. He finished Harvard Medical School in three years (a record) and spent his 4th year taking courses in the Elec Eng grad school of MIT. This, of course, does not mean that he is always (or even sometimes) correct, but his mother did not raise a dummy. Why, then, are transitions of the type n = 1 to n = 1/2 or n = 1/9 to n = 1/10 not observed as correctly stated by Mills' detractors. The answer is quite simple and straight forward: The n = 2, 3, 4, etc. states are radiative (unstable) states and the n = 1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/3, etc. are nonradiative states. The problem goes back to Schrodinger and Heisenberg. They assumed that the boundary condition for the solution of the Schrodinger equation was that the wave function for the electron approach zero as the distance(of the electron approached infinity. The Schrodinger equation can be solved with this boundary condition, but it gives the wrong solutions! The boundary condition should be, as correctly proposed by Mills, "For non-radiative states, the current-density function must not possess spacetime Fourier components that are synchronous with waves traveling at the speed of light." That is, a stable hydrogen atom must not radiate. We know that the hydrogen atom (n = 1) does not radiate. Hydrogen atoms in the n = 1/2, 1/3, etc. states (which arise for the Schrodinger equation when Mills' boundary condition is applied) do not radiate either. If you would like to learn more about the relationship between the theories of Bohr and Schrodinger and Mills, see http://blacklightpower.com/2theorel.pdf How then do hydrogen atoms get to n = 1/2, 1/3 etc. states? By collisions of the type (for example): H(n =1) + H(n = 1/2) = H(n = 1/3) + H+ + e- + 54.4 eV These types of collisions are the source of energy in the corona of stars (solar flares, etc.) and the source most of the energy from the sun. (This is the real reason why there is a so-called solar neutrino problem.) (BTW, this is the dark matter in the universe--hydrinos). Many lines have been observed from these types of transitions. See, for example, Labov and Bowyer, "Spectral observations of the extreme ultraviolet background," The Astrophysical Journal, 371 (1991) pp 810-819. For a rather complete list see the BlackLight Power web site. My point is this. Beware of experts when a new theory is proposed. Sometimes they are the last to recognize the beauty and wisdom of new ideas--they are too wedded and too imbedded in the old theory. I do not mean to imply that Mills' theory is correct. It, too, must be thoroughly questioned and challenged. The detractors could be a great help here if they would stand back and get into Mills' theory a bit more. Their comments, at this point, are a bit on the naive side. Best regards to all. John Farrell ******************************************************************* John J. Farrell email J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU Chemistry Department Phone 717-291-3803 Franklin & Marshall College FAX 717-291-4343 Lancaster, PA 17604 USA ******************************************************************* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 17:11:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA16040; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:10:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:10:10 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:15:11 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <20000129220727656.AAA248 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"if7g22.0.Yw3.n3Ebu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y Jean might be drawing 100 mA to the input of his plasma supply. A flyback transformer power supply charges up a coil and the collapsing magnetic field, when thew current is removed is the 'flyback' ... the collape is faster than the charging and the secondary is often many many turns, as in a television HV "Flyback" supply. On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > Michael S. writes: > >2. He used the voltage across a 10 ohm resistor to measure current. > >Oscilloscopes respond to voltage, so he must divide the current signal by 10 > >ohm to get current. I think Naudin forgot to divide by 10. If you divide his > >current by 10, then his AC power is a lower than his DC input power. Even > >though the digital scope trace labels the current axis as "100 mA/div", > >oscilloscopes do not do this on their own. Naudin had to input the correct > >conversion factor at some point. I suspect he erred on the entry. > > > >3. Naudin is using an AC capacitive plasma generator. (The same principle > >operates in the "plasma spheres" one can buy at Radio Shack, novelty stores, > >etc. It is also used in some plasma sources, usually at much higher > >frequency.) Anyway, I see no way that Naudin's small plasma generator has > >enough capacitance to draw anywhere close to 100 mA at his frequency. This > >reinforces my guess that he erred on the conversion factor. > > > > > >===== > >Michael J. Schaffer > > This is where I am evidently getting confused, I guess. The DC input power > is fed, I'm supposing, as a series of high speed, square wave pulses into > the step-up transformer. The output from the transformer, in my mind, > should still be DC. While the voltage may look like AC because it is > sinusoidal, it is still a positive voltage throughout the wavelength of the > pulse. The photos even indicate that the voltage is measured as VDC, and > the value of the voltage throughout the waveform never falls below zero. > I'm also supposing that the waveform is sinusoidal, as opposed to square > waved, after the transformer because of the rise and fall time that occurs > in the transformer as the voltage inductively rises and collapses through > the core. Is this use of the term AC in this case merely a conventionally > used misnomer, or is my entire understanding of AC wrong? I don't have a > good picture of what the theory is behind flyback transformers, and this may > be the trouble. Thanks for the help. > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 18:13:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03560; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:12:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:12:10 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:22:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20000131022254562.AAA259 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"8nlDz1.0.Yt.vzEbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John writes: > Jean might be drawing 100 mA to the input of his plasma supply. > > A flyback transformer power supply charges up a coil and the >collapsing magnetic field, when thew current is removed is the 'flyback' >... the collape is faster than the charging and the secondary is often >many many turns, as in a television HV "Flyback" supply. Thanks John, I'm still missing a few cogs on this, but from the drawing that is on the webpage, the current is measured between the secondary coil and the plasma panel. If you want, I can shoot the photos over to you. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 20:17:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA05088; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:12:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:12:23 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:11:43 EST Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"egJaL.0.PF1.ckGbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, How was the platinum cathode treated? Did I miss that crucial point in your paper on the web? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 06:19:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19682; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:17:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:17:25 -0800 Message-ID: <389599DA.25EE9D6D ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:19:08 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1JVp_3.0.Qp4.qbPbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom, The is the critical question and one for which a good answer is lacking. The platinum had been used previously for calibration and gave no excess at this time. However, during a previous run to the one published, the sample showed evidence for EP. To be certain, I substituted clean Pt and started the published run. Clearly, the Pt had accumulated a layer which allowed the sample to become active. The nature of this layer needs to be determined and repeated. The main question is, "Is such a layer present on all active materials including Pd?" "Does the substrate material matter?" Ed Storms Tstolper aol.com wrote: > Ed, > > How was the platinum cathode treated? Did I miss that crucial point in your > paper on the web? > > Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 07:32:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15887; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:30:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:30:33 -0800 Message-ID: <004201bf6c00$05c59d60$0f627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> <389599DA.25EE9D6D@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:27:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"8ACiY.0.6u3.PgQbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, IE #29 has a report on my visit to Dr. John Dash, who is using a Thermonetics Calvet calorimeter to measure excess heat from titanium cathodes. I was there for a couple of days. On the evening of the first day, I was shown how to assemble a control cell with a well-used platinum cathode. It ran all night. When I arrived in the morning, I was the first to notice that the cell was producing about 0.2W excess, which really threw me, as the Calvet was tested to +/- 0.022W accuracy. It was a very steady heat. Dash was not phased a bit. He said that it is not unusual for platinum that has been used a long time to produce excess heat, and referred to an ICCF-6 paper of his and the work of Mizuno. We replaced the cathode with a fresh platinum one and restarted the calibration run. It came in as expected, almost perfectly on the calibration line. This argues against a systematic error in Storms' flow calorimeter as an explanation of platinum cathode heat. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt > Tom, > The is the critical question and one for which a good answer is lacking. The > platinum had been used previously for calibration and gave no excess at this > time. However, during a previous run to the one published, the sample showed > evidence for EP. To be certain, I substituted clean Pt and started the > published run. Clearly, the Pt had accumulated a layer which allowed the > sample to become active. The nature of this layer needs to be determined and > repeated. The main question is, "Is such a layer present on all active > materials including Pd?" "Does the substrate material matter?" > > Ed Storms > > Tstolper aol.com wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > How was the platinum cathode treated? Did I miss that crucial point in your > > paper on the web? > > > > Tom Stolper > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 07:37:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16942; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:32:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:32:26 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <389599DA.25EE9D6D ix.netcom.com> References: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:26:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"Va5_U1.0.e84.9iQbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Tom, >This is the critical question and one for which a good answer is lacking. The >platinum had been used previously for calibration and gave no excess at that >time. However, during a previous run to the one published, the sample showed >evidence for EP. To be certain, I substituted clean Pt and started the >published run. Clearly, the Pt had accumulated a layer which allowed the >sample to become active. The nature of this layer needs to be determined and >repeated. The main question is, "Is such a layer present on all active >materials including Pd?" "Does the substrate material matter?" > >Ed Storms ***{You are using 0.5 molar LiOD in D2O with a platinum cathode, whereas Mizuno is using 0.5 molar K2CO3 in H2O with a tungsten cathode, and yet you are both claiming excess heat. You are using different cathode materials, and different dissolved materials in the electrolyte. The only isotope common to LiOD and K2CO3 is oxygen. The only isotope common to both D2O and H2O is oxygen. There is no isotopic commonality between tungsten and platinum, unless there is some impurity common to both. You theorize a surface effect--due to the accumulation of some sort of layer of material--and yet Mizuno's surface is subject to such violent conditions that it steadily erodes away, thereby suggesting that the accumulation of a surface layer is not the proper explanation. Therefore the possibilities would seem to be the following: (1) Undermeasurement of input power is taking place in one or both cases. (2) Some sort of bizarre over unity process involving oxygen is taking place. (3) Some sort of deep seated process, as opposed to a surface effect, is taking place. (4) The "over unity" numbers in the two cases are due to completely different underlying mechanisms. I would be very interested in hearing your comments about each of the above possibilities, as well as any others you think worthy of discussion. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 07:56:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24302; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:53:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:53:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131105325.0079e6e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:53:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: References: <389599DA.25EE9D6D ix.netcom.com> <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YTAZ91.0.ex5.G0Rbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >You are using 0.5 molar LiOD in D2O with a platinum cathode, whereas >Mizuno is using 0.5 molar K2CO3 in H2O with a tungsten cathode, and yet you >are both claiming excess heat . . . I believe Dash and Wall are comparing the recent experiments with Ti and Pt to electrochemical experiments with Au cathodes performed by Ohmori and Mizuno. They are not comparing this to the more recent W cathode glow discharge experiments. Glow discharge is quite different from any previous CF work. It does not shed much light on previous work, and I do not think it can be considered much of a confirmation or replication of CF. The Au experiments were closer in methodology, power levels, over-voltage and other parameters to the present studies with Ti and Pt. >(4) The "over unity" numbers in the two cases are due to completely >different underlying mechanisms. This cannot be ruled out, although it seems unlikely to me that many different, unrelated sources of energy have remained undiscovered all these years. I think it will be many years until we understand the connection between these disparate experiments, although Mizuno says that Takahashi believes his theories may tie them together, and he says the latest theories may have predictive value for the glow discharge experiment. Mizuno also says he is working with Iwamura at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, and they hope to make a joint presentation at ICCF-8. That's what prompted my comments about the Mitsubishi clean room CF lab. I do not know whether Iwamura is performing glow discharge, or continuing with the diaphram electrode transmutation studies and perhaps assisting with the analysis of elements and isotopes, but anyway, they are collaborating. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 08:51:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14862; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:48:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:48:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3895BD3B.E0ECD8C ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:50:15 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GLXnU3.0.8e3.PpRbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for your comments Mitchell. I would like to suggest that various conditions can produce environments in which anomalous energy can be made. For example, Ti-D2O+H2SO4, Ni-H2O+Li2SO4, and Pd-D2 gas are all claimed to show the strange effect. While you may not believe these claims, at least you can not use the Mizuno claims, which I suspect you also do not believe, to interpret the Pt-D2O+LiOD behavior. The conditions are vastly different so that many possible environments can be proposed to be active. This being the case, I would pick your #4 but with a qualification. I propose the mechanism is the same as far as the nuclear reaction is concerned but that the nuclear reactions are different because different nuclei are involved. For example, the Pd-D2O and the Pd-D2 gas systems clearly show helium production while evidence for transmutation has been given for the Ni-H2O+salt system. In this case, the salt within the electrolyte takes up a H to become the next higher element, i.e. K goes to Ca for example. At this point, the nuclear product is unknown in the Pt-D2O+LiOD system. As you point out, the surface layer erodes away in the Mizuno study. However, nothing prevents a dynamic process in which the layer forms as fast as it erodes away, thereby allowing a steady state to be achieved. Failure of Scott's efforts might be caused by the layer being eroded faster than it forms, thereby eliminating the active region. A balance between the two process, I suspect, would be hard to achieve under the dynamic conditions used in this method. If this is the issue, Mizuno and Scott should compare the erosion rates of their cathodes to see if Scott's are eroding too fast. Ed Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{You are using 0.5 molar LiOD in D2O with a platinum cathode, whereas > Mizuno is using 0.5 molar K2CO3 in H2O with a tungsten cathode, and yet you > are both claiming excess heat. You are using different cathode materials, > and different dissolved materials in the electrolyte. The only isotope > common to LiOD and K2CO3 is oxygen. The only isotope common to both D2O and > H2O is oxygen. There is no isotopic commonality between tungsten and > platinum, unless there is some impurity common to both. You theorize a > surface effect--due to the accumulation of some sort of layer of > material--and yet Mizuno's surface is subject to such violent conditions > that it steadily erodes away, thereby suggesting that the accumulation of a > surface layer is not the proper explanation. Therefore the possibilities > would seem to be the following: > > (1) Undermeasurement of input power is taking place in one or both cases. > > (2) Some sort of bizarre over unity process involving oxygen is taking place. > > (3) Some sort of deep seated process, as opposed to a surface effect, is > taking place. > > (4) The "over unity" numbers in the two cases are due to completely > different underlying mechanisms. > > I would be very interested in hearing your comments about each of the above > possibilities, as well as any others you think worthy of discussion. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 09:03:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21494; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:59:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:59:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:55:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QRbNl.0.gF5.2-Rbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Before I begin, let me reassure everyone on this list of my intentions and motivation. Primarily, I want to help develop cold fusion into a viable energy source. One of the first steps in this process is necessarily the replication of the excess heat effect in this laboratory. To date, I have been unsuccessful in that effort. However, because of the enormous potential of this technology, I am still trying. Finally, I do not wish to waste my time trying to replicate experimental results that are only apparently positive and are, in fact, erroneous. I have found a potential problem in Ed Storms' data. Hopefully it is not a real problem. Please join me constructively in analyzing it. http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/48-64.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 09:24:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32276; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:22:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:22:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3895C53C.765D8A47 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:24:26 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs References: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k_m1_2.0.8u7.UJSbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, you clearly point out an inconsistency which bothers me as well. However, for the temperature within the cell to reflect changes in power production, we must assume that the thermal conductivity of the wall remains constant. This calorimeter, for reasons based on past history, has an unstable coating on the glass surface within the jacket. Consequently, the thermal conductivity of the wall is not constant. You can see this by comparing the thermal conductivity of the wall before and after the run using the two Pt calibrations. This comparison does not show just when in time the change took place nor does it show whether cycles of change might have occurred. However, it does show that the thermal conductivity of the wall is not constant and, therefore, isoperibolic data are not to be trusted. None of this affects the flow calorimeter. At some point in the future I will fix this problem, but to do so will put the calorimeter out of service for several days. I do not want to take the time just now. Ed Storms What it does shScott Little wrote: > Gnorts, > > Before I begin, let me reassure everyone on this list of my intentions and > motivation. Primarily, I want to help develop cold fusion into a viable > energy source. One of the first steps in this process is necessarily the > replication of the excess heat effect in this laboratory. To date, I have > been unsuccessful in that effort. However, because of the enormous > potential of this technology, I am still trying. Finally, I do not wish to > waste my time trying to replicate experimental results that are only > apparently positive and are, in fact, erroneous. > > I have found a potential problem in Ed Storms' data. Hopefully it is not a > real problem. Please join me constructively in analyzing it. > > http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/48-64.html > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 10:02:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15509; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:59:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:59:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131125833.0079ad40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:58:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"SGTli2.0.Ao3.erSbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote (in the Web page report): There may be some combination of factors that could result in the cell temperature behavior depicted above while a genuine excess heat signal was varying within the cell. In his writeup, Ed downplays the isoperibolic data (which is essentially what I am analyzing above) by appealing to mixing problems. I agree that these effects would introduce additional errors into an isoperibolic result but I do not see how the correlation between isoperibolic and flow results could be eliminated or reversed. I do not see how it happens either, but I have seen it happen, with my own (rather crappy) flow calorimeters, during calibration when I *knew* the input power was increased. The internal liquid temperature does not always track well in a flow calorimeter when the power level changes are small. I have no clue why this is the case. I have heard that many complex factors play a role, including mixing (cited by Storms here); the efficiency of the heat removal; thermocouple performance and the non-zero intercept; and the paths by which heat escapes, out the walls instead of out the top; and something Fleischmann calls "entry effects." Since I do not understand how this works, if I were in Ed's shoes I would do what the NHE engineers did: subsume all complex factors in the "noise" and declare that the signal has to be three times larger than the worst measured combination screwy factors. I would ignore the excess heat signal until the cell temperature *and* flow both indicate a positive excess. Frankly, I am little surprised Scott has not seen this behavior in his own calorimeter. As I mentioned, Fleischmann said *he* does not not understand what is happening in the "dual mode" arrangement, but he thinks nothing good can come of it. He was discussing the dual mode calorimeter at the NHE, and Ed Storms' attempt to use his calorimeter in that mode. Actually, Fleischmann's doubts were directed more toward the flow-mode of the dual-mode calorimeter, but he did not think much of the cell temperature side either. I myself do not see how the flow could affect things differently than, say, submerging a cell in constant temperature bath, but M.F. says it will be much more complex than that. Simple question: Is the flow rate constant during this period? That would explain it! In my experience, the cause of such problems is always a surprise when it is finally discovered. I agree, and it is usually an unpleasant surprise, but on the other hand it does not necessarily overrule calibration or make flow calorimetry inoperative in principle. The danger is that it means *this particular calorimeter* is inoperable. It sure would be nice to know why the temperature do this, and I hope Ed can explain and maybe provide some examples. However, since we have seen the same kind of non-correlation of cell temperature and heat removal in the flow in reasonably well-behaved calorimeters, it may not be anything to worry about. Furthermore, during a real excess heat event, the cell temperature must rise higher than it normally is when no excess heat is present. In a pure or "ideal" isoperibolic system this is certainly true. The pure types are what Fleischmann recommends, which he calls "the well-stirred tank" and the "ideal plug flow device." In other types, when you are talking about very small changes in power level, all bets are off. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 10:11:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12599; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:06:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:06:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131130602.007d2aa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:06:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3895BD3B.E0ECD8C ix.netcom.com> References: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"e0mxU1.0.f43.nySbu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >If >this is the issue, Mizuno and Scott should compare the erosion rates of their >cathodes to see if Scott's are eroding too fast. Yeah, I think Mizuno and Scott are working on that. This is an example of the "before-and-after" studies that are needed -- and are in progress. I recall Mizuno said that the cathodes which quickly disintegrate, in a single run, do not produce excess heat. The only thing left of these is the lead wire and a nub of the original cathode. There was one like that sitting in the cell when I arrived. Mizuno said "that one's shot. They never work when they get down to that size." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 10:29:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28773; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:26:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:26:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131132552.0079d8b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:25:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000131125833.0079ad40 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9N_Kh3.0.M17.NFTbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >I myself do not see how the flow could affect things >differently than, say, submerging a cell in constant temperature bath, but >M.F. says it will be much more complex than that. He did not explain why in his letter, but I think it has something to do with a stream of moving water in a flow versus a whole body of water swirling outside a cell in a cooler. The body of water in a cooler should also be stirred, so it does swirl against the cell wall, but its temperature is quite uniform, whereas the temperature in cooling water passing through a cell is non-uniform by definition. It removes a lot of heat near the inlet, and less near the outlet, and its peformance changes as temperature and power levels change. (The cooling water is usually in a tube, but in Ed's case it is sandwiched in an outer layer of glass.) The detailed physics are quite complicated. A simple model works fine when you are measuring to the nearest watt, or even the nearest tenth-watt, but as you get down to the milliwatt level things get more and more complicated, and you have to take into account more and more complex factors. I think it breaks down completely somewhere around 10 mW. I do not think you should try to use a water-based calorimeter to measure power levels that low, although M.F. brags he can do it. Most people would do better to move on to some sort of modern, exotic, electronic gadget. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 11:24:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18754; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:21:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:21:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131142128.007d38d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:21:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000131132552.0079d8b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000131125833.0079ad40 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YKphD2.0.xa4.K3Ubu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me conclude with a note for people who have not read M.F. I wrote: >I think it has something to do >with a stream of moving water in a flow versus a whole body of water >swirling outside a cell in a cooler. The body of water in a cooler should >also be stirred, so it does swirl against the cell wall, but its >temperature is quite uniform, whereas the temperature in cooling water >passing through a cell is non-uniform by definition. With M.F.'s cell, the primary heat loss path is by radiation across a vacuum gap, at the unsilvered, bottom portion of the Dewar cell. That's simple and predictable. With an ordinary test tube submerged in a cooling bath, or a flow calorimeter, heat loss is primarily by conduction, which is messy and complicated. M.F. does not like it. Of course on the macroscopic scale they are both easy to model. I guess you could make a Dewar dual mode calorimeter. It's sorta hard to say . . . Most other people I know with isoperibolic calorimeters put the temperature sensors outside the cell, in a gap between the cell wall and an outer wall. The gap can be filled with air, fluid or maybe crumpled-up aluminum foil. M.F. recommended a similar configuration a couple of years ago, in conversation. He would put a copper envelope around the cell with the temperature probes embedded in it, with something around the copper. (I don't recall what.) He said this is how he would make a demonstration kit, if he had the money to do it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 11:47:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28189; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:43:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:43:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3895E644.3DB9151C ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:45:32 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs References: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000131132552.0079d8b0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LinOH.0.Hu6.uNUbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest we keep the present observations in context. Of course all kinds of small effects can be imagined, a talent Fleischmann has developed to a high degree. Nevertheless, the heat has to leave the cell through easily identified paths. In the case of the flow-type, most of the heat leaves with the water. This can only happen if the temperature of the water increases. Accurate and stable measurement of temperature and flow rate are the only variables. Naturally some heat leaves by other paths, a loss which must be kept constant, but its exact value does not have to be known. Worry about swirling water is a waste of time. An isoperibolic calorimeter is more complex. In addition to accurate temperature measurement in a thermally inhomogeneous fluid, the thermal conductivity of the thermal barrier must be constant. This is a lot to ask. In addition, Fleischmann and others failed to properly identify the major thermal barrier. When a vacuum dewar surrounds the cell, as was the case in the P-F design, the major thermal barrier is the lid. In this case, the real temperature across this barrier must be measured, not the temperature within the fluid. Having said this, I would admit that a single, simple indication of excess energy needs to be ignored until it is supported by consistent patterns of behavior. This has been done in the case of this Pt sample by causing the apparent excess to turn off and on. Random effects or systematic errors would not explain such a behavior pattern. In addition, the excess is maintained over a wide range of applied power when it is present and when it is absent, the same wide range shows no excess. I suggest we concentrate on trying to explain such patterns. Ed Storms Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > >I myself do not see how the flow could affect things > >differently than, say, submerging a cell in constant temperature bath, but > >M.F. says it will be much more complex than that. > > He did not explain why in his letter, but I think it has something to do > with a stream of moving water in a flow versus a whole body of water > swirling outside a cell in a cooler. The body of water in a cooler should > also be stirred, so it does swirl against the cell wall, but its > temperature is quite uniform, whereas the temperature in cooling water > passing through a cell is non-uniform by definition. It removes a lot of > heat near the inlet, and less near the outlet, and its peformance changes > as temperature and power levels change. (The cooling water is usually in a > tube, but in Ed's case it is sandwiched in an outer layer of glass.) > > The detailed physics are quite complicated. A simple model works fine when > you are measuring to the nearest watt, or even the nearest tenth-watt, but > as you get down to the milliwatt level things get more and more > complicated, and you have to take into account more and more complex > factors. I think it breaks down completely somewhere around 10 mW. I do not > think you should try to use a water-based calorimeter to measure power > levels that low, although M.F. brags he can do it. Most people would do > better to move on to some sort of modern, exotic, electronic gadget. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 13:00:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24062; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:57:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:57:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131155705.007a1820 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:57:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs In-Reply-To: <3895E644.3DB9151C ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000131132552.0079d8b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KvCYu1.0.Xt5.3TVbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I suggest we keep the present observations in context. Of course all kinds of >small effects can be imagined, a talent Fleischmann has developed to a high >degree. Nevertheless, the heat has to leave the cell through easily >identified paths. In the case of the flow-type, most of the heat leaves with >the water. This can only happen if the temperature of the water increases. >Accurate and stable measurement of temperature and flow rate are the only >variables. Naturally some heat leaves by other paths, a loss which must be >kept constant, but its exact value does not have to be known. Worry about >swirling water is a waste of time. It is not a waste of time in this case, because that was M.F.'s first take on *your* problem, Ed. Which is to say, the problem Scott Little zeroed in on: the fact that the cell temperature does not seem to track the excess heat. Of course Martin could not diagnose the situation over the telephone, but he mentioned the kinds of problems I listed, which he said applied to the similar setup at the NHE. Something has to explain it! I think the gist of all the explanations are as follows: assuming the flow calorimetry is correct, either the conductivity of the cell wall has changed (for who knows what reason), or the heat distribution inside the cell has changed (because the moving, variable temperature fluid outside introduces convection currents inside). The flow calorimetry *could be* wrong, after all. We cannot dismiss Scott's concerns. "Accurate and stable measurement of temperature and flow rate" are indeed the only variables, and at the macroscopic scale they are easy to ensure, but when power goes below a half-watt and the flow rate dips below ~20 ml/min, all kinds things begin popping up which make accurate temperature measurement difficult, more difficult, and finally impossible. Martin listed a few of these problems: "Reynold's Numbers, Poiseuille Flow, geometry . . ." I suppose these factors are not be significant in your case, or you would have seen their effects during calibration. Anyway, we'll know more after you fix the calorimeter for the next run. >When a vacuum dewar surrounds >the cell, as was the case in the P-F design, the major thermal barrier is the >lid. No, I think he shows pretty convincingly that 97% of the heat crosses the thin, non-silvered section at the bottom of the cell, in a complicated, first principle analysis, based on the "Stefan-Boltzmann coefficient and the radiant surface areas of the cell." That's a narrow gap on the bottom, in a tall test tube, and a large Kel-F plug at the top (with a gas outlet). Considerably less than 1% of the heat crosses the silvered portions of the cell, and water levels changes make no measureable difference, so heat conducted up the side to the top is not a factor. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 13:40:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06356; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:37:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:37:11 -0800 Message-ID: <004f01bf6c31$5380a3c0$259cf1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: References: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> <3895BD3B.E0ECD8C@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:22:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"hKAxn1.0.DZ1.72Wbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt > Thanks for your comments Mitchell. I would like to suggest that various > conditions can produce environments in which anomalous energy can be made. For > example, Ti-D2O+H2SO4, Ni-H2O+Li2SO4, and Pd-D2 gas are all claimed to show the > strange effect. While you may not believe these claims, at least you can not use > the Mizuno claims, which I suspect you also do not believe, to interpret the > Pt-D2O+LiOD behavior. The conditions are vastly different so that many possible > environments can be proposed to be active. This being the case, I would pick your > #4 but with a qualification. I propose the mechanism is the same as far as the > nuclear reaction is concerned but that the nuclear reactions are different because > different nuclei are involved. For example, the Pd-D2O and the Pd-D2 gas systems > clearly show helium production while evidence for transmutation has been given for > the Ni-H2O+salt system. In this case, the salt within the electrolyte takes up a > H to become the next higher element, i.e. K goes to Ca for example. At this > point, the nuclear product is unknown in the Pt-D2O+LiOD system. > > As you point out, the surface layer erodes away in the Mizuno study. However, > nothing prevents a dynamic process in which the layer forms as fast as it erodes > away, thereby allowing a steady state to be achieved. Failure of Scott's efforts > might be caused by the layer being eroded faster than it forms, thereby > eliminating the active region. A balance between the two process, I suspect, > would be hard to achieve under the dynamic conditions used in this method. If > this is the issue, Mizuno and Scott should compare the erosion rates of their > cathodes to see if Scott's are eroding too fast. > > Ed > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > ***{You are using 0.5 molar LiOD in D2O with a platinum cathode, whereas > > Mizuno is using 0.5 molar K2CO3 in H2O with a tungsten cathode, and yet you > > are both claiming excess heat. You are using different cathode materials, > > and different dissolved materials in the electrolyte. The only isotope > > common to LiOD and K2CO3 is oxygen. The only isotope common to both D2O and > > H2O is oxygen. There is no isotopic commonality between tungsten and > > platinum, unless there is some impurity common to both. You theorize a > > surface effect--due to the accumulation of some sort of layer of > > material--and yet Mizuno's surface is subject to such violent conditions > > that it steadily erodes away, thereby suggesting that the accumulation of a > > surface layer is not the proper explanation. Therefore the possibilities > > would seem to be the following: > > > > (1) Undermeasurement of input power is taking place in one or both cases. > > > > (2) Some sort of bizarre over unity process involving oxygen is taking place. > > > > (3) Some sort of deep seated process, as opposed to a surface effect, is > > taking place. > > > > (4) The "over unity" numbers in the two cases are due to completely > > different underlying mechanisms. > > > > I would be very interested in hearing your comments about each of the above > > possibilities, as well as any others you think worthy of discussion. > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > [snip] > > From Peter van Noorden ; pjvannrd knmg.nl Send monday January 31 21.40 C.E.T The Netherlands I would like to comment on the ideas formulated by Mitchell Jones and Edmund Storms. By using radioactive substances ( in this case thallium201) it is possible to detect what is going on at the kathode surface. After prolonged electrolysis with radioactive thallium ,the kathode is as expected becoming very radioactive. Now only after a very short glow discharge reaction( less than a minute!) almost all the radioactivity is removed from the kathode. Also after a prolonged glow discharge reaction no increase in activity is seen on the kathode so it seems that there is no concentration of positive ions during the glowdischarge reaction. It looks like there is a reversal of potential on the electrode surface so that it becomes more positive, thereby attracting oxygen and removing the positive ions( K+ and H+)., Oxidation of the tungsten kathode leads to forming debris on the bottom of the cell . In the debris I found all the radioactivity which was removed from the kathode. Isotope analysis of the radioactive electrolyte and the formed debris after the glow discharge reaction didn`t reveal any isotopic deviations. Also there was no significant change in the total activity before and after the experiment, but I can not exclude a very small "transmutation" of radioactive thallium to nonradioactive nuclei. My conclusion is that in my experiment during glow discharge, only negative ions are attracted toward the kathode and that If there is an excess heat reaction on the electrode surface, than oxygen would take part in it. Also it is possible that excess heat is produces in the negatively charged plasma surrounding the electrode. But the radio- thallium ( and perhaps because of the chemical relationship also the pottasium)doesn`t seem to be involved in the glow discharge reaction. Peter van Noorden From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:02:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15814; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:00:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:00:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131163030.007d03a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:30:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000131155705.007a1820 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3895E644.3DB9151C ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000131132552.0079d8b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"G83uy1.0.0t3.nNWbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >but when power goes below a half-watt and the flow rate dips >below ~20 ml/min, all kinds things begin popping up which make accurate >temperature measurement difficult, more difficult, and finally impossible . . . Let me address my own concern, for those who cannot see the spreadsheet. The flow rate is a robust, steady 31 ml/min, and the water is moving through a jacket and then into a tube, so problems with the flow rate and mixing seem unlikely. I have never heard of mixing problems at that flow rate. Also, many of the problems I mentioned occur when absolute, overall power including electrolysis input dips below 0.5 watts. They are not so bad when the overall power is high and the excess happens to be a fraction of a watt, as I mentioned yesterday. Obviously, Ed Storms is quite familiar with all these problems. As he says, we should concentrate on the flow calorimetry, which is simpler and more reliable in this case, rather than the mixed, somewhat problematical "dual" calorimetry. I am rattling off all this stuff -- mostly hearsay -- because Scott Little is concerned (rightly) and because I talked to Martin about Ed's problem a couple of weeks ago, while discussing the NHE, and it's right here in my notes, FWIW. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:42:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31319; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:39:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:39:44 -0800 Message-ID: <38960F4E.67EEEB7B ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:40:18 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storm's Pt 48-64 hrs References: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000131132552.0079d8b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000131155705.007a1820@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0KbCv.0.Cf7.lyWbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >I suggest we keep the present observations in context. Of course all > kinds of > >small effects can be imagined, a talent Fleischmann has developed to a high > >degree. Nevertheless, the heat has to leave the cell through easily > >identified paths. In the case of the flow-type, most of the heat leaves with > >the water. This can only happen if the temperature of the water increases. > >Accurate and stable measurement of temperature and flow rate are the only > >variables. Naturally some heat leaves by other paths, a loss which must be > >kept constant, but its exact value does not have to be known. Worry about > >swirling water is a waste of time. > > It is not a waste of time in this case, because that was M.F.'s first take > on *your* problem, Ed. Which is to say, the problem Scott Little zeroed in > on: the fact that the cell temperature does not seem to track the excess > heat. Of course Martin could not diagnose the situation over the telephone, > but he mentioned the kinds of problems I listed, which he said applied to > the similar setup at the NHE. Something has to explain it! I think the gist > of all the explanations are as follows: assuming the flow calorimetry is > correct, either the conductivity of the cell wall has changed (for who > knows what reason), or the heat distribution inside the cell has changed > (because the moving, variable temperature fluid outside introduces > convection currents inside). As I noted in an earlier post, the thermal conductivity of the cell wall is unstable. This is a major problem. In addition, I agree with your earlier comments about small amounts of heat being invisible when small amounts of power are applied. I also have seen this effect. However, in this case, the small amount of power is superimposed on a large power, something which should be easier to see. > > > The flow calorimetry *could be* wrong, after all. We cannot dismiss Scott's > concerns. "Accurate and stable measurement of temperature and flow rate" > are indeed the only variables, and at the macroscopic scale they are easy > to ensure, but when power goes below a half-watt and the flow rate dips > below ~20 ml/min, all kinds things begin popping up which make accurate > temperature measurement difficult, more difficult, and finally impossible. > Martin listed a few of these problems: "Reynold's Numbers, Poiseuille Flow, > geometry . . ." I suppose these factors are not be significant in your > case, or you would have seen their effects during calibration. Absolutely correct.. All of the nit picking details cancel out because the cell is calibrated under same conditions used to measure excess power. > > > Anyway, we'll know more after you fix the calorimeter for the next run. > > >When a vacuum dewar surrounds > >the cell, as was the case in the P-F design, the major thermal barrier is the > >lid. > > No, I think he shows pretty convincingly that 97% of the heat crosses the > thin, non-silvered section at the bottom of the cell, in a complicated, > first principle analysis, based on the "Stefan-Boltzmann coefficient and > the radiant surface areas of the cell." That's a narrow gap on the bottom, > in a tall test tube, and a large Kel-F plug at the top (with a gas outlet). > Considerably less than 1% of the heat crosses the silvered portions of the > cell, and water levels changes make no measureable difference, so heat > conducted up the side to the top is not a factor. I hate to be a spoil sport, but I think Martin is wrong about this. I also have a cell surrounded by an unsilvered dewar. In this case, loss through the lid including through the wires clearly is a significant heat loss. A calculation based on theory which does not take all aspects of radiation coupling, including reflectivity and wall absorption, into account does not, in my mind, carry the same weight as experimental measurements. The heat travels through the gas to the lid as well as up the wires. I would agree conduction up the sides through the glass is very small. Water level change would have no effect on conduction through the lid, so this observation does not answer the question. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 15:08:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08311; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:02:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:02:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:07:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cold Fusion: " Set of primary Questions" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000131155705.007a1820 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Sz8I31.0.l12.QIXbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To all Cold Fusion people or groups. I am going to try to ask some primary questions and also try to keep the bandwidth usage small. Q: If one of the electrodes is, say, Pd ...How thin is too thin? Q: Is 1mm thick OK? Is 1/10 mm OK? Is 1/100 mm OK? Thank you, John Reason of question, sort of: To make a standard and-or easy and inexpensive set up, imagine a substrate of ... say Carbon or Copper. Then: We plate 1 to 10 micron Pd, or other metal. Q: Is there any problem with this? Thank you, John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 15:29:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15617; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:22:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:22:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131181938.007cc9d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:19:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Partially silvered Dewar calorimetry In-Reply-To: <38960F4E.67EEEB7B ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000131105549.010cbb48 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000131132552.0079d8b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000131155705.007a1820 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"13CAL2.0.up3.caXbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: I also have >a cell surrounded by an unsilvered Dewar. I think the performance of this will be quite different from the mostly-silvered Dewar with the unsilvered window at the bottom. (It is sometimes called "half-silvered" but that term is confusing because it sounds like the mirror used in a sextant, which you can see through partially, in order to superimpose images.) Also bear in mind that the gap or envelope in Martin's Dewar is unusually small. A calculation >based on theory which does not take all aspects of radiation coupling, including >reflectivity and wall absorption, into account does not, in my mind, carry the >same weight as experimental measurements. I believe they did perform extensive experimental measurements to back up the equations. I'll look it up tomorrow. They mine a lot of data by comparing calibration pulses at different power levels. They somehow determine the heat transfer coefficient for different components. Also, radiation across a vacuum is well-understood, old physics (which is why they selected this mode) and heat transfer coefficient of glass (or Pyrex, or whatever it is) is well established by the glass makers. In other words, the heat goes from liquid through glass, across a vacuum, through another piece of glass, and the performance of glass is extremely well documented by the manufacturer, according to Martin. He plugged in their numbers, to start with. The heat travels through the gas to >the lid as well as up the wires. I would agree conduction up the sides through >the glass is very small. I thought conduction through glass up to the top is significant when you have a single layer of unsilvered glass. Maybe not, but someone told me that. Glass seems to be a pretty good thermal conductor, even though it does not conduct electricity. I mean it gets hot quickly when you pour hot liquid into it. > Water level change would have no effect on conduction >through the lid, so this observation does not answer the question. I think it does if it significantly reduces the size of vapor gap between the top of the water and the lid. This is a way to measure vapor conductivity, and cell wall conductivity with a non-silvered wall. However, this was a long, tall test tube, so I do not know how much the gap changed at the extremes. A short cell will conduct a lot of heat up to the lid, according to M.F. It is amazing what he can tell by examining the data. For example, by examining the heat loss curves, he retroactively determined that water level in the cells at the NHE was higher than it was supposed to be. Higher than recommended, I mean. They would not let him see the cell, and they would not tell him how much fluid was in it, but he sleuthed out the numbers and determined they were constantly overfilling the cells with their automatic refill gadget. According to other people who actually saw the experiment, he was right. Also, as I mentioned, that Kel-F plug they picked is a pretty good insulator. That's why they picked it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 15:36:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19544; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:33:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:33:37 -0800 Message-ID: <38961B1D.72247BEC ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:30:44 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <9b.ddfc06.25c6657f aol.com> <3895BD3B.E0ECD8C@ix.netcom.com> <004f01bf6c31$5380a3c0$259cf1c3@vannoorden> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2aeQP1.0.In4.HlXbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter van Noorden wrote: > > > > From Peter van Noorden ; pjvannrd knmg.nl > Send monday January 31 21.40 C.E.T > The Netherlands > > I would like to comment on the ideas formulated by Mitchell Jones and Edmund > Storms. > By using radioactive substances ( in this case thallium201) it is possible > to detect what is going on at the kathode surface. > After prolonged electrolysis with radioactive thallium ,the kathode is as > expected becoming very radioactive. > Now only after a very short glow discharge reaction( less than a minute!) > almost all the radioactivity is removed > from the kathode. Thallium is rather volatile so I would expect surface heating produced by the glow discharge would simply vaporize the thallium. > Also after a prolonged glow discharge reaction no increase > in activity is seen on the kathode so it seems that there is no > concentration of positive ions during the glowdischarge reaction. Positive ions can only form from atoms of thallium in the gas. If the surrounding structures or liquid are relatively cold compared to the cathode, I would expect most of the thallium to condense out and not be available to make positive ions. In addition, if the cathode were sufficiently warm, any ions which reached it would quickly vaporize as neutral atoms. Most of the potassium would also suffer this fate. > > It looks like there is a reversal of potential on the electrode surface so > that it becomes more positive, thereby attracting oxygen and removing the > positive ions( K+ and H+)., > Oxidation of the tungsten kathode leads to forming debris on the bottom of > the cell . Oxidation would certainly destroy the cathode, but so would reaction with potassium to form an intermetallic alloy. In any case, I suspect that oxygen can get to the cathode because parts of the plasma could have a reverse potential so that the cathode would look positive to local regions of the plasma. In addition H2O+ would be available to react. > > In the debris I found all the radioactivity which was removed from the > kathode. The debris is very finely divided and chemically active. Perhaps, the thallium simply reacted chemically with the debris after it left the cathode as vapor. > > Isotope analysis of the radioactive electrolyte and the formed debris after > the glow discharge reaction didn`t reveal any isotopic deviations. > Also there was no significant change in the total activity before and after > the experiment, but I can not exclude a very small "transmutation" of > radioactive thallium to nonradioactive nuclei. > My conclusion is that in my experiment during glow discharge, only negative > ions are attracted toward the kathode and that If there is an excess heat > reaction on the electrode surface, than oxygen would take part in it. I don't think your observations lead to this conclusion. While you may be correct, I suggest you need more evidence. For example, does the debris contain significant oxygen? > > Also it is possible that excess heat is produces in the negatively charged > plasma surrounding the electrode. > But the radio- thallium ( and perhaps because of the chemical relationship > also the pottasium)doesn`t seem to > be involved in the glow discharge reaction. So far, every observed example of the CF reaction and all attempted explanations require a solid structure. While nuclear reactions are known to occur in plasmas, these are not generally considered "cold fusion". But then, this is a whole new ball game and anything is possible. Regards, Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 15:49:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25845; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:47:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:47:45 -0800 Message-ID: <38961F78.E873A ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:49:21 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold Fusion: " Set of primary Questions" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T2Q9f3.0.cJ6.WyXbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > To all Cold Fusion people or groups. > > I am going to try to ask some primary questions and also try to > keep the bandwidth usage small. > > Q: If one of the electrodes is, say, Pd ...How thin is too thin? > Q: Is 1mm thick OK? Is 1/10 mm OK? Is 1/100 mm OK? This is a basic question which does not yet have a good answer. I have seen EP from electroplated layers as thin as 1.2 microns and from bulk Pd as thick as 1 mm. > > > Thank you, > > John > > Reason of question, sort of: > > To make a standard and-or easy and inexpensive set up, imagine a > substrate of ... say Carbon or Copper. > Then: We plate 1 to 10 micron Pd, or other metal. > > Q: Is there any problem with this? Plating on copper does not work very well. I have had success with Ag and Pt. I doubt carbon would work at all. The problem is finding a substrate to which the Pd will stick with sufficient strength to resist the enormous gas pressures within voids which would try to peel it off. Even when good adhesion is obtained, films still do not make EP on most occasions. But thanks for asking. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 16:02:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29908; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:00:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:00:39 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:05:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fusion, Storms and ... " Set of primary Questions" In-Reply-To: <38961F78.E873A ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Z8TV2.0.5J7.a8Ybu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo and Ed, Ed answers the first set of questions, and of course, we solicit others. NOTE: An important bit of my study of The History and Ethics of Science: Ed Storms THANKS the questioner for asking the question. This is, in my opinion, a truly wonderful thing and indicates an investigator who is not only in love with his work and his field, but is also dedicated to teaching the art. This type of exchange is vital to the advancement to science. On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > To all Cold Fusion people or groups. > > > > I am going to try to ask some primary questions and also try to > > keep the bandwidth usage small. > > > > Q: If one of the electrodes is, say, Pd ...How thin is too thin? > > Q: Is 1mm thick OK? Is 1/10 mm OK? Is 1/100 mm OK? > > This is a basic question which does not yet have a good answer. I have seen > EP from electroplated layers as thin as 1.2 microns and from bulk Pd as > thick as 1 mm. > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > John > > > > Reason of question, sort of: > > > > To make a standard and-or easy and inexpensive set up, imagine a > > substrate of ... say Carbon or Copper. > > Then: We plate 1 to 10 micron Pd, or other metal. > > > > Q: Is there any problem with this? > > Plating on copper does not work very well. I have had success with Ag and > Pt. I doubt carbon would work at all. The problem is finding a substrate to > which the Pd will stick with sufficient strength to resist the enormous gas > pressures within voids which would try to peel it off. Even when good > adhesion is obtained, films still do not make EP on most occasions. But > thanks for asking. > > Ed Storms > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 21:31:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18367; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:29:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:29:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000131233040.006d2220 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:30:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Storms' Pt - varying conductivity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NAlHr2.0.oU4.zycbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, Thanks for your rational comments about the varying thermal conductivity of the cell walls. I accept this as a possible explanation for the observed cell temperature behavior. However, it is perhaps not the most likely explanation for reasons I have outlined in a short discussion at: http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/Ptcalib.html In the end, we can't know the real story behind this issue because we simply do not have the necessary data. I will therefore look at other portions of your experiment now. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 22:04:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA26901; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:01:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:01:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:58:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"o36681.0.Ca6.IRdbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Hi Scott. In order to respond to your comments about Ed's experiment, it seemed most efficient to copy the text of your remarks and insert my comments in my usual manner, so that's what I have done. --MJ}*** **************************************** Analysis of data from Ed Storm's Pt experiment, 31JAN00. It is a rare treat to have the ability to analyze data from a cold fusion experiment showing positive results...with the full cooperation of the experimentalist. I would like to congratulate Ed Storms for making the entire data set available from his recent Pt experiment. This kind of open cooperation is likely to contribute significantly to the real breakthroughs that hopefully will come soon in this field. My purpose in examining Ed's data is to test its validity. Calorimetry is not a conceptually difficult metrology but it offers numerous opportunities for systematic errors. ***{By "systematic errors," I assume you refer to errors that will follow the experimental runs but not the control runs. Belief in that sort of "systematic error," for example, would leave you open to the possibility that if Ed switches an active Pt cathode with an inactive one 50 times, he might get a false reading of excess heat 50 times when the active cathode is present in the cell, and might never get it when the inactive one is present in the cell. By my calculation, the odds of that happening by chance would be no more than (1/2)^50 = 8.9(10^-16)--i.e., zero, for practical purposes. However, if I understand what you mean by "systematic error," it would *not* be due to chance, but to some unknown cause other than chance--and, also, other than "cold fusion." In my view (and, I assume, yours as well), it is the critic's obligation to identify the systematic error and explain how it could produce the observed pattern of results. Failure to do so leads to the default assumption that there are two possibilities: chance, and actual excess energy. In that case, if the chance probability was in the vicinity of .01 or less, we would have strong evidence for "over unity" operation. For Ed Storms: have you done multiple runs in which you switched back and forth between an active cathode and an inactive one, and logged the tendency of the excess power to track the active one? Do you have any pairs of active and passive cathodes which have remained so with consistency over a large number of runs and, if so, how many? --Mitchell Jones}*** The basic laws of physics and thermodynamics are at work in any calorimeter and we can use the predictions of these laws to check certain aspects of the calorimetric data for consistency. For example, in order for heat to flow from the cell into the calorimeter cooling water, the cell temperature must be higher than the temperature of the cooling water. Furthermore, during a real excess heat event, the cell temperature must rise higher than it normally is when no excess heat is present. ***{Not necessarily. Cell temperature will track total power consumption, not the difference between power out and power in. It is total power consumption which heats the cell, not excess power. For example, excess power could occur when both power out and power in were falling, but power in was falling faster. In that case, total power consumption would fall, and so would the temperature of the cell, despite the fact that excess power was rising. --MJ}*** Certainly the interior of a cold fusion cell is not thermally homogeneous. Fortunately Ed placed three temperature sensors inside his cell and we can expect at least one of these AND their average (appropriately weighted) to show a temperature variation that tracks the excess power (EP) signal. Ideally, we should examine data from two nearly identical periods of cell operation, with the only difference being the presence/absence of an excess heat signal. For the initial examination, I have selected the period from 48 to 64 hours, when the cell current was held at 1.5 A (between the red lines in the reproduction of Ed's Figure 4 below).. During this period the excess heat signal rose to 0.5 watts then declined to 0.1 watts. If this is genuine excess heat, the cell temperature should show some sign of direct correlation with the excess heat signal. ***{Not necessarily true, for the reasons given above. --MJ}*** Plotted below are the EP, three cell temperature sensors, and the observed delta-T in the cooling water (offset by 25 degrees to facilitate comparison with the cell temperatures). During the period depicted, the input power varied slightly, rising from about 8.74 watts to 8.90 watts. Under each of the four temperature traces is a companion trace plotted in the same color that shows how that particular trace would have looked if the input power had remained constant*. Concentrating on the companion traces, note that the delta-T trace declines steadily and significantly in the second half of this period by about 0.1C. It is this decline that is, of course, directly mirrored in the EP signal as it moves from a high of 0.5 watts down to 0.1 watts at the end of the period. This decline in delta-T apparently represents a reduction in the amount of excess heat delivered by the cell to the calorimeter cooling water. As discussed above, we should therefore see corresponding reductions in one or more of the cell temperature sensors. ***{Based on your comments, when input power was 8.74 watts, excess power was .5 watts, so total power was 9.24 watts; and when input power was 8.90 watts, excess power was .1 watts, so total power was 9.0 watts. Thus we have a percentage decline of a mere [.24/9.24](100) = 2.6%. I would expect a temperature signal that small to be lost in the noise--e.g., caused by variations in the quality of mixing, registration delays at thermocouples, sampling intervals, errors in weighting of thermistor readings, etc. Because of such factors, the average of the three thermistor readings would either not track the excess power signal, or else would not track it very well. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine how the excess power reading could be off by much, since it would be based on temperature differences between the inlet and outlet of the cooling jacket, rather than on temperature measurements in the chaotic and unstable environment within the cell itself. Bottom line: I am inclined to consider the temperature readings from within the cell to be a distraction. If we cannot find some solid basis for questioning flow rate or the delta-T across the water jacket, I think we are going to have to accept these results. --MJ}*** Furthermore, because of the finite thermal resistance between the cell contents and the cooling water, the changes in cell temperature must be larger than the changes in cooling water temperature. ***{No. Virtually all of the heat from the inner cell should be picked up by the water flowing through the outer jacket, even if thermal stratification in the cell or some other factor causes the changes there to be undermeasured. Thus we cannot conclude that changes in the cell temperature must be larger than changes in the cooling water temperature. --MJ}*** The cathode temp (red) and top temp (purple) show a slight peak at about 52 hours which is consistent with the peak in the EP trace but, as far as I can see, they do not track the decline that occurs in the 2nd half of this period. The bottom temp (cyan) doesn't track the decline either...in fact it shows a noticeable increase while the delta-T is declining. ***{A possible hypothesis here would be that the efficiency of mixing in the cell increases as total power declines, thereby reducing the underreporting of temperature. But in any case, this focus on the internal temperature sensors strikes me as irrelevant to the central issue, which is whether we can find errors that lead to undermeasurement of input power, or to an overmeasurement of the delta-T or the flow rate across the cell. If we can't, and if there have been enough repetitions to discount random error, then I think we are stuck with this result, regardless of the behavior of the thermistors inside the cell. --MJ}*** In my opinion, this behavior indicates that the observed variations in the delta-T trace (and hence the EP trace) during this period may not accurately reflect the variations in heat power being released by the cell. At the moment, I have no idea what could be causing such behavior in the delta-T trace. In my experience, the cause of such problems is always a surprise when it is finally discovered. ***{However the thermistor readings inside the cell are ultimately explained, they seem irrelevant to the question of whether there is excess heat. After all, the excess heat calculations do not make use of those readings. --MJ}*** There may be some combination of factors that could result in the cell temperature behavior depicted above while a genuine excess heat signal was varying within the cell. In his writeup, Ed downplays the isoperibolic data (which is essentially what I am analyzing above) by appealing to mixing problems. I agree that these effects would introduce additional errors into an isoperibolic result but I do not see how the correlation between isoperibolic and flow results could be eliminated or reversed. I eagerly await alternative analyses of this important issue. Scott Little little eden.com *In the case of the three cell temperatures, the companion trace data was calculated using the linear coefficient in the electrolytic power isoperibolic calibration equation (see fig. 3 in Ed's report). In the case of the delta-T, the companion trace was calculated using the same flow calibration coefficient used to calculate the EP data in Ed's spreadsheet. ****************************************