From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 06:20:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26467; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:15:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:15:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000201091517.007994c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:15:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt - varying conductivity In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000131233040.006d2220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8a91g.0.KT6.Igkbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: This is consistent with an *increase* in the thermal conductivity of the cell walls that occurred sometime between the beginning and end of this experiment. I must point out that this change . . . does not mitigate the anomalous cell temperature behavior noted in my earlier comments (see URL given above). On the contrary, because it would impose a gradual declining trend on all cell temperatures . . . Well, it seems to me that if it can increase, it can also decrease. The graphs prove that conductivity does fluctuate. I suppose that a thin layer of gunk over both surfaces of the jacket would be enough to make a 300 - 400 mW change in conductivity. I wonder if it could be mold or some other microorganism? Tinsley and others reported trouble with mold and fungus growth in the cooling water. He cleaned the hoses periodically with bleach. Anyway, we'll see when Ed gets a chance to clean up the cell and recalibrate. Here are a couple more comments about the Fleischmann-Pons cell in regard to this problem: 1. Thermal conductivity is dominated by the vacuum gap. Changes in the glass hardly affect the overall numbers. 2. Virtually all of the heat escapes from an area under the water line, at the bottom of the cell. Most of the damage to the cell wall occurs at and above the water line, where changing water levels and splashes from bubbles leave concentrated or dry lithium salts on the wall. With a plain glass cell, or an unsilvered Dewar, you can measure changes in thermal conductivity caused by this. With the F-P cell this area is well insulated and nothing changes when it is damaged. Yesterday I mentioned that F&P did test their model to make sure the numbers they plugged in for the conductivity of glass, vacuum, and the plug were correct. Their method was simplicity itself. They predicted the electrolyte would reach a certain temperature during calibration, and it did. They predicted it would change as the water level changed, and it did. Essentially, they were doing first-principle isoperibolic calorimetry. Most people depend upon calibrations to discover after the fact what the cell constant is. F&P successfully modeled and predicted the cell constant in advance. As Chanute said of the Wrights, they have a low tolerance for guesswork. (I think it was Chanute. I wish all my books were on the hard disk so I could look it up!) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 06:41:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA02442; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:40:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:40:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000201093935.007a0100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:39:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt - varying conductivity In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000201091517.007994c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000131233040.006d2220 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JHfmH.0.1c.81lbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Well, it seems to me that if it can increase, it can also decrease. The >graphs prove that conductivity does fluctuate. I suppose that a thin layer >of gunk over both surfaces of the jacket would be enough to make a 300 - >400 mW change in conductivity. Then again, as Scott Little is probably thinking, a change introduced by something like this would probably be gradual, and stable for 14 hours. In other words, the gunk would build up to a certain level and stay there, so the cell temperature would track the flow heat removal over the period shown in Scott's graphs, although it would be different than it was a week earlier. I guess this data is more indicative of rapidly changing conditions within the cell. It can't be a mixing problem, because there is a stirrer. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 07:18:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA14971; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:16:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:16:10 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:12:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: The Consequences of Fascism Resent-Message-ID: <"HRl0K3.0.mf3.wYlbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PRESS RELEASE - PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY The crash of the Kenya Airways Airbus A310 with a huge loss of life (171 out of 179 died) and now the crash of Alaska Airlines off the Los Angeles coast (no survivors have been found so far - links to full stories below) exemplifies once again that the streamlined fuselage aircraft which have been imposed upon the travelling public for the past 70 years is not restricted to the Boeing Company. The perpetuation of this fundamentally flawed aircraft design in all models built and now in larger versions of the Boeing 747 as well as the new Airbus A3XX is an insult to the intelligence of the flying public and constitutes willful disregard for human life. Why does the establishment prevent the Burnelli Company from producing its greatly superior and well-proven crash-worthy lifting-body aircraft? For more information on Burnelli see: http://www.aircrash.org Please voice your opinions to your representatives, write letters to the editor and talk about this outrage with your friends, acquaintances and relatives - forward far & wide, post to usenet - be creative! This waste of lives is nothing short of criminal. For information on the Kenya Airways crash: Kenya Airways Airbus A-310-300 crashes shortly after take-off from Abidjan (Ivory Coast) http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/africa/01/31/kenya.airways.crash.01/index.html For information on the Alaska Airlines crash: Alaska Airlines jet crashes into Pacific Ocean north of Los Angeles. http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/alaska.airlines.crash.01/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is the Survival of plane-crash victims called "miraculous"? Is there an alternative to miracles? ----- www.aircrash.org. ----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 07:21:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16881; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:19:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:19:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000131233040.006d2220 mail.eden.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:16:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt - varying conductivity Resent-Message-ID: <"HTwWP3.0.h74.Pclbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ed, > >Thanks for your rational comments about the varying thermal conductivity of >the cell walls. I accept this as a possible explanation for the observed >cell temperature behavior. However, it is perhaps not the most likely >explanation for reasons I have outlined in a short discussion at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/Ptcalib.html > >In the end, we can't know the real story behind this issue because we >simply do not have the necessary data. I will therefore look at other >portions of your experiment now. > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 ***{Hypothesis: (1) A gradual buildup of insulating bubbles occurred on the thermisters during the period when total power was rising, and the buildup gradually decreased during the period when the total power was falling. (Note: the solubility of most gases declines as temperature increases, and increases as temperature declines.) As a consequence, the internal temperature of the cell was underreported during the rising phase, and the readings played catch-up during the declining phase. Result: since the decline in total power during the declining phase was a mere 2.6%, the temperature readings were level to slightly rising during the declining phase. (2) During the period when total power was rising, the strength of the thermal above the cathode increased, opposing the downdraft caused by the rotating stir-bar, and thus reducing the efficiency of mixing within the cell. Result: an increased tendency toward thermal stratification within the cell: the proportion of total heat in the upper part of the cell increased, thereby increasing the proper weighting of the upper temperature probe. During the period when total power was declining, the strength of the thermal above the cathode decreased, thereby reducing the opposition to the downdraft caused by the rotating stir-bar, and increasing the efficiency of mixing. Result: the proper weightings of the three temperature probes moved back toward equality. The effect: when power was rising, the upper temperature probe became progressively underweighted, and the temperature rise was under reported; when power began to fall, the readings played catch-up, and the heat that had been underreported during the early phase began to be registered. (Note: some might expect this effect to be trivial, given the small change in total power, but it is worth noting that transitions from turbulent to laimnar flow tend to be sudden, not gradual, and if such a transition threshold were crossed during the phase of declining total power, the effect could be substantial.) Bottom line: we have two factors that tended to shift the reporting of cell heat from the phase of rising total power into the phase of declining total power. While we lack the data to precisely quantify those factors, analysis of these conditions makes it quite clear that they were present, and hence I think we should not be too disturbed about the failure of the cell temperature readings to track total power produced in the cell. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 07:39:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24414; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:37:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:37:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000131233040.006d2220 mail.eden.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:34:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt - varying conductivity Resent-Message-ID: <"uocsp.0.Lz5.6tlbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Ed, >> >>Thanks for your rational comments about the varying thermal conductivity of >>the cell walls. I accept this as a possible explanation for the observed >>cell temperature behavior. However, it is perhaps not the most likely >>explanation for reasons I have outlined in a short discussion at: >> >>http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/Ptcalib.html >> >>In the end, we can't know the real story behind this issue because we >>simply do not have the necessary data. I will therefore look at other >>portions of your experiment now. >> >> >>Scott R. Little EarthTech International >> 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 >> Austin Texas USA 78759 >> 512-342-2185 > >***{Hypothesis: > >(1) A gradual buildup of insulating bubbles occurred on the thermisters >during the period when total power was rising, and the buildup gradually >decreased during the period when the total power was falling. (Note: the >solubility of most gases declines as temperature increases, and increases >as temperature declines.) As a consequence, the internal temperature of the >cell was underreported during the rising phase, and the readings played >catch-up during the declining phase. Result: since the decline in total >power during the declining phase was a mere 2.6%, the temperature readings >were level to slightly rising during the declining phase. > >(2) During the period when total power was rising, the strength of the >thermal above the cathode increased, opposing the downdraft caused by the >rotating stir-bar, and thus reducing the efficiency of mixing within the >cell. Result: an increased tendency toward thermal stratification within >the cell: the proportion of total heat in the upper part of the cell >increased, thereby increasing the proper weighting of the upper temperature >probe. During the period when total power was declining, the strength of >the thermal above the cathode decreased, thereby reducing the opposition to >the downdraft caused by the rotating stir-bar, and increasing the >efficiency of mixing. Result: the proper weightings of the three >temperature probes moved back toward equality. The effect: when power was >rising, the upper temperature probe became progressively underweighted, and >the temperature rise was under reported; when power began to fall, the >readings played catch-up, and the heat that had been underreported during >the early phase began to be registered. ***{When this post popped up on my server, I read it again, and noticed that there is a problem with my analysis of this second factor. Suppose that you have a cell with 10 thermisters, arranged at equal intervals from top to bottom. Under conditions of perfect mixing, 1/10th of the heat in the cell will be present in each of the 10 horizontal layers in which the thermisters are positioned. All will give the same readings, and the average will be the same as the individual readings. But if mixing ceases, and all of the heat segregates itself into the top layer (impossible, but assumed for the sake of argument), then equal weightings will still be correct: the upper reading will be ten times as high, the lower readings will be zero, and the average will still be correct. Thus this second part of my hypothesis appears to be off base, and I hereby withdraw it from consideration. Nevertheless, the first factor seems sufficient, of itself, to obviate the need to explain the lack of correlation between Ed's cell temperatures and total power produced in his cell. --MJ}*** (Note: some might expect this >effect to be trivial, given the small change in total power, but it is >worth noting that transitions from turbulent to laimnar flow tend to be >sudden, not gradual, and if such a transition threshold were crossed during >the phase of declining total power, the effect could be substantial.) > >Bottom line: we have two factors that tended to shift the reporting of cell >heat from the phase of rising total power into the phase of declining total >power. While we lack the data to precisely quantify those factors, analysis >of these conditions makes it quite clear that they were present, and hence >I think we should not be too disturbed about the failure of the cell >temperature readings to track total power produced in the cell. > >--Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 08:46:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11458; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:44:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:44:48 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <30.a9e1fd.25c866df aol.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:42:07 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"SNP5_2.0.yo2._rmbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been having a problem with reactor tube wall contamination by W vapor boiling off the cathode and condensing on the quartz tube walls. This conductive coating interferes with the glow discharge, especially at low power inputs. I think I have the problem solved by fitting alumina sleeves around the electrodes. I tried out the sleeving idea using Alpha Aesar stock number 31705. Worked very well if the electrode tips were recessed about 2mm inside the sleeve ends. I had only ordered one of the alumina tubes, 100mm length, to see if they would work as they cost 13 bucks each. I now have four more on order and should arrive tomorrow. As soon as I get the electrodes fitted I will begin calibration runs with H2 gas. The new constant power HV power supply is a joy to use BTW, just set the power and all I have to do is monitor is the fill pressure and record temperature. As always all raw data will be posted here. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 10:18:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12031; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:13:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:13:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000401120910.01e339b0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:09:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XgVJ83.0.px2.u8obu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:58 PM 1/31/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote a lot of speculative comments about my analysis of Ed's data including: >***{Based on your comments, when input power was 8.74 watts, excess power >was .5 watts, so total power was 9.24 watts; and when input power was 8.90 >watts, excess power was .1 watts, so total power was 9.0 watts. Thus we >have a percentage decline of a mere [.24/9.24](100) = 2.6%. I would expect >a temperature signal that small to be lost in the noise-- If you discount this decline because it is only a 2.6% change, you should give equal consideration to Ed's EP signal, which peaks at only 3% of the input power. >On the other hand, it is hard to imagine how the excess power reading >could be off by much, since it would be based on temperature differences >between the inlet and outlet of the cooling jacket, rather than on >temperature measurements in the chaotic and unstable environment within the >cell itself. It's not so hard when you actually look at the data. Go back to the plot I presented in http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/48-64.html The fluctuations (i.e. noise) in the delta-T trace are not that much smaller than the fluctuations in the cell temperature traces. > Furthermore, because of the finite thermal resistance between the cell >contents and the cooling water, the changes in cell temperature must be >larger than the changes in cooling water temperature. > >***{No. Virtually all of the heat from the inner cell should be picked up >by the water flowing through the outer jacket, even if thermal >stratification in the cell or some other factor causes the changes there to >be undermeasured. This statement is true... >Thus we cannot conclude that changes in the cell >temperature must be larger than changes in the cooling water temperature. OK, It is theoretically possible for the isoperibolic delta-T to be smaller than the flow delta-T but, with glass cell walls, I don't think it is likely. I believe that Ed's calibration equations (flow and isoperibolic) support my position in this case. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 10:25:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16912; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:23:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:23:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3897250C.2563EC08 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 11:25:21 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BsPjr2.0.A84.iIobu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: For Ed Storms: have you done multiple runs in which you switched back and > forth between an active cathode and an inactive one, and logged the > tendency of the excess power to track the active one? Do you have any pairs > of active and passive cathodes which have remained so with consistency over > a large number of runs and, if so, how many? The calorimeter used for the recent Pt study is relatively new. Hence, I have not seen other active samples using it. However, I have many studies of inactive samples, as you might expect. As for changing the samples and seeing changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using inert Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition and flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. 0.0704 W/deg-flow 0.0725 0.0712 0.0721 0.0709 0.0712 On the other hand, values for the isoperibolic constant varied widely in addition to showing nonlinear behavior. I suspect the layer which is on the jacket wall changes depending on the temperature it sees. My other calorimeter does not show this behavior, although it is not as efficient in its heat capture as this one. When I have finished the present run in the other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. A Seebeck calorimeter is on order and will be used to examine the active Pt when it arrives. Hopefully, the sample will turn on again. > > ***{Based on your comments, when input power was 8.74 watts, excess power > was .5 watts, so total power was 9.24 watts; and when input power was 8.90 > watts, excess power was .1 watts, so total power was 9.0 watts. Thus we > have a percentage decline of a mere [.24/9.24](100) = 2.6%. I would expect > a temperature signal that small to be lost in the noise--e.g., caused by > variations in the quality of mixing, registration delays at thermocouples, > sampling intervals, errors in weighting of thermistor readings, etc. > Because of such factors, the average of the three thermistor readings would > either not track the excess power signal, or else would not track it very > well. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine how the excess power reading > could be off by much, since it would be based on temperature differences > between the inlet and outlet of the cooling jacket, rather than on > temperature measurements in the chaotic and unstable environment within the > cell itself. Bottom line: I am inclined to consider the temperature > readings from within the cell to be a distraction. If we cannot find some > solid basis for questioning flow rate or the delta-T across the water > jacket, I think we are going to have to accept these results. --MJ}*** I agree. Unfortunately, the calorimeter used for this study has a problem with the isoperibolic mode. The other calorimeter, although not as good as a flow calorimeter, shows better behavior as an isoperibolic calorimeter. Like people, they each have their individual quarks. > > ***{No. Virtually all of the heat from the inner cell should be picked up > by the water flowing through the outer jacket, even if thermal > stratification in the cell or some other factor causes the changes there to > be undermeasured. Thus we cannot conclude that changes in the cell > temperature must be larger than changes in the cooling water temperature. > --MJ}*** In general, the flow-type has a sensitivity of 0.4°/watt while the isoperibolic-type has a sensitivity of 0.7°/watt. However, the temperature gradients in the cell, in spite of stirring, give the isoperibolic mode more scatter and instability than the flow mode. When the instability of the thermal conductivity is added to the problem, the data at low power has no meaning. This is why I have ignored apparent EP in my isoperibolic calorimeters when the values were below 1 watt. On the other hand values of 2 watts and up, which I have reported, seem to be real. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 11:19:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01339; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:14:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:14:40 -0800 Message-ID: <389730F6.903DE23C ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:16:13 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <3.0.1.32.20000401120910.01e339b0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3J_Xf3.0.jK.V2pbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 11:58 PM 1/31/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote a lot of speculative > comments about my analysis of Ed's data including: > > >***{Based on your comments, when input power was 8.74 watts, excess power > >was .5 watts, so total power was 9.24 watts; and when input power was 8.90 > >watts, excess power was .1 watts, so total power was 9.0 watts. Thus we > >have a percentage decline of a mere [.24/9.24](100) = 2.6%. I would expect > >a temperature signal that small to be lost in the noise-- > > If you discount this decline because it is only a 2.6% change, you should > give equal consideration to Ed's EP signal, which peaks at only 3% of the > input power. The point Mitchell is making is that temperatures within the cell are affected by many more factors than are temperatures in the cooling water. These additional factors make the 2.6% change within the cell have much less meaning than the 3% change in the cooling water. > > >On the other hand, it is hard to imagine how the excess power reading > >could be off by much, since it would be based on temperature differences > >between the inlet and outlet of the cooling jacket, rather than on > >temperature measurements in the chaotic and unstable environment within the > >cell itself. > > It's not so hard when you actually look at the data. Go back to the plot I > presented in http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/48-64.html The > fluctuations (i.e. noise) in the delta-T trace are not that much smaller > than the fluctuations in the cell temperature traces. If you plot the apparent average temperature within the cell during the calibration runs and take the difference between the lease squares equation and each data point, the standard deviation is +-0.1° which is equivalent to +- 0.15 watts. This is the short term scatter, a value which should allow the 0.7 watts to be visible. However, this behavior is based on the applied energy being dissipated within the electrolyte as Joule heating as well as producing heat at the electrodes from the chemical reactions. What would happen if a small amount of additional energy were released only at the cathode? Would it have the same effect on the average temperature as does the applied power? Perhaps not. In any case, this question will not be answered until I can either repair the one calorimeter or reproduce the effect in another calorimeter. > Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 11:48:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13032; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:43:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:43:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3897250C.2563EC08 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:40:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"qkiYj.0.XB3.rTpbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >For Ed Storms: have you done multiple runs in which you switched back and > >> forth between an active cathode and an inactive one, and logged the >> tendency of the excess power to track the active one? Do you have any pairs >> of active and passive cathodes which have remained so with consistency over >> a large number of runs and, if so, how many? > >The calorimeter used for the recent Pt study is relatively new. Hence, I have >not seen other active samples using it. However, I have many studies of >inactive samples, as you might expect. ***{There are, I think, two types of error that could cause a false "over unity" result: (1) Random error. This is the case where chance fluctuations just happen, by pure chance, to generate some apparent "over unity" results. To refute this possibility, pair your active cathode with an inactive cathode of the same dimensions and do a run first with one, then with the other, until you have done, say, 30 runs with each. (If you think the inactive cathode might become active due to a surface effect, then scrub it, or dip it in acid, etc., between runs to ensure that it remains inactive.) If, after doing such a series of runs, you score "over unity" 30 times with the active cathode, and score *not* over unity 30 times with the inactive one, then it will become utterly implausible to argue that the pattern is due to chance ("random error"). The reason: if you get OU numbers half of the time (30 out of 30 with the active cathode, 0 out of 30 with the inactive one), and if an OU result is assumed to be just a chance coincidence of random noise within your calorimeter, then the probability of an OU result would be .5 on any given run, and hence the chance probability of getting 30 in a row with the active cathode would be (.5)^30 = 9.3x10^-10--i.e., about one in ten billion. Thus the way to refute the random error hypothesis is to simply repeat your experiment with a paired control, over and over again. On the other hand, as things presently stand, I see no way for you to discount the random error hypothesis. (2) Systematic error. This occurs when an error has the intelligence to follow your active cathode for 30 runs, while avoiding the inactive one. While such errors are possible, they differ from the random error hypothesis in a crucial respect: the person who suggests it must come up with a plausible rationale explaining how the error could track the active cathode with such unerring accuracy. In my view, there is only one "systematic error" hypothesis that might explain your result: the active cathode may be simply a cathode which, due to the configuration of impurities on its surface, generates a spike pattern that fools your power meter, resulting in an undermeasurement of input power to your cell. To deal with that possibility, you would need to follow electronics Guru Don Lancaster's advice: " I would use modern signal processing to accurately measure the power. Taking, say, 15,000 or more identical 12-bit or higher simultaneous voltage and current line locked samples per second, digitially multiplying them together, THEN averaging and summing and scaling. I'd also watch the waveforms for funny duty cycles, sparking, and stuff that would foul up the works. Either a PIC or a PC can now easily handle accurate power measurement. Tasks that were ridiculously expensive or complex (and definitely misunderstood) a year ago. Maxim has a superb new chip for this." Have you taken any precautions along these lines? For example, how many simultaneous samples of current and voltage does your meter take per second? What algorithm does it use to compute power? Do you use a scope to watch your waveforms? If not, then I see no way at present to discount the systematic error hypothesis. --Mitchell Jones}*** On the other hand, as long as you have only done a few runs that show "over unity" numbers, --MJ}*** As for changing the samples and seeing >changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using inert >Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition and >flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > >0.0704 W/deg-flow >0.0725 >0.0712 >0.0721 >0.0709 >0.0712 > >On the other hand, values for the isoperibolic constant varied widely in >addition to showing nonlinear behavior. I suspect the layer which is on the >jacket wall changes depending on the temperature it sees. ***{Agreed. As I mentioned in another post, as temperature rises in a liquid, the solubility of dissolved gases decreases, giving rise to a tendency for bubbles to form on solid objects which are in contact with the liquid. When such bubbles form on thermisters, cylinder walls, etc., they are obviously going to alter the temperature readings, the thermal conductivity of vessel walls, etc., with net effects that are going to be very difficult to predict. --MJ}*** My other >calorimeter does not show this behavior, although it is not as efficient in >its heat capture as this one. When I have finished the present run in the >other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. ***{I would advise against using this cathode under different conditions in a different cell: you may deactivate it. Instead, you should use it to do repeated runs in the same calorimeter, at the same settings, in order to build up a data base which you can use to discount the random error hypothesis. If you can demonstrate that it performs consistently over a large number of runs, while interspersed runs with seemingly identical cathodes that have been deliberately deactivated consistently fail, then you will have made a giant step toward proving your case. --MJ}*** [snip] > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 12:05:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22999; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:03:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:03:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000201150248.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 15:02:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <389730F6.903DE23C ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000401120910.01e339b0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"d_cUh2.0.Fd5.4mpbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >The point Mitchell is making is that temperatures within the cell are affected >by many more factors than are temperatures in the cooling water. Yes. And Martin was saying the temperatures within the cell are affected *by interactions with cooling water,* especially the thermal gradients. That may be one of the other factors. >The other calorimeter, although not as good as a >flow calorimeter, shows better behavior as an isoperibolic calorimeter. Like >people, they each have their individual quarks. Not to mention electrons, atoms and molecules. And quirks! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 12:38:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01621; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:34:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:34:07 -0800 Message-ID: <38974398.48ED20B8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:35:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kayaW1.0.FP.-Cqbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > (1) Random error. This is the case where chance fluctuations just happen, > by pure chance, to generate some apparent "over unity" results. To refute > this possibility, pair your active cathode with an inactive cathode of the > same dimensions and do a run first with one, then with the other, until you > have done, say, 30 runs with each. (If you think the inactive cathode might > become active due to a surface effect, then scrub it, or dip it in acid, > etc., between runs to ensure that it remains inactive.) If, after doing > such a series of runs, you score "over unity" 30 times with the active > cathode, and score *not* over unity 30 times with the inactive one, then it > will become utterly implausible to argue that the pattern is due to chance > ("random error"). The reason: if you get OU numbers half of the time (30 > out of 30 with the active cathode, 0 out of 30 with the inactive one), and > if an OU result is assumed to be just a chance coincidence of random noise > within your calorimeter, then the probability of an OU result would be .5 > on any given run, and hence the chance probability of getting 30 in a row > with the active cathode would be (.5)^30 = 9.3x10^-10--i.e., about one in > ten billion. Thus the way to refute the random error hypothesis is to > simply repeat your experiment with a paired control, over and over again. Two problems exist with this approach. First, a run takes several hundred hours to duplicate the behavior being proposed. The kind of study you are proposing would take many months just to prove to you that one sample made a little excess energy. Meanwhile, my equipment could not be used to search for ways to duplicate and magnify the effect. The second problem is your definition of random error. Excess power is based on a combination of many measurements each of which contains random fluctuations. You are proposing that these random fluctuations combine to produce a mega fluctuation which happens to result in apparent excess energy when I place the sample in the cell and happens to gradually cancel to zero when I apply 1.5 A to the sample. And the pattern repeats itself after I turn off the current for awhile. If this is your assertion, I would invite you to the local Casino where we can retire rich. > > On the other hand, as things presently stand, I see no way for you to > discount the random error hypothesis. > > (2) Systematic error. This occurs when an error has the intelligence to > follow your active cathode for 30 runs, while avoiding the inactive one. > While such errors are possible, they differ from the random error > hypothesis in a crucial respect: the person who suggests it must come up > with a plausible rationale explaining how the error could track the active > cathode with such unerring accuracy. In my view, there is only one > "systematic error" hypothesis that might explain your result: the active > cathode may be simply a cathode which, due to the configuration of > impurities on its surface, generates a spike pattern that fools your power > meter, resulting in an undermeasurement of input power to your cell. To > deal with that possibility, you would need to follow electronics Guru Don > Lancaster's advice: > > Have you taken any precautions along these lines? For example, how many > simultaneous samples of current and voltage does your meter take per > second? What algorithm does it use to compute power? Do you use a scope to > watch your waveforms? If not, then I see no way at present to discount the > systematic error hypothesis. Each data point is based on an average of 15000 data points of each of the 12 variables being recorded. I have examined many materials of different sizes and treatments and the effect seems to be related to the ability to achieve a critical deuterium activity on the surface and not on any electrical problem. Again, I would ask you why such an error in voltage measurement would change only after the current was increased to 1.5 A? Not only change, but change slowly and smoothly. > As for changing the samples and seeing > >changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using inert > >Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition and > >flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > > > >0.0704 W/deg-flow > >0.0725 > >0.0712 > >0.0721 > >0.0709 > >0.0712 > > > >On the other hand, values for the isoperibolic constant varied widely in > >addition to showing nonlinear behavior. I suspect the layer which is on the > >jacket wall changes depending on the temperature it sees. > > ***{Agreed. As I mentioned in another post, as temperature rises in a > liquid, the solubility of dissolved gases decreases, giving rise to a > tendency for bubbles to form on solid objects which are in contact with the > liquid. When such bubbles form on thermisters, cylinder walls, etc., they > are obviously going to alter the temperature readings, the thermal > conductivity of vessel walls, etc., with net effects that are going to be > very difficult to predict. --MJ}*** No bubbles form on the surfaces because of the stirring action. Even my other unstirred cell does not show this effect. In any case, this would not apply to the water flowing through the jacket. On the other hand, when air inadvertently entered the cooling water stream, changes in calibration were observed because some of the air remained behind as a trapped bubble at the top of the jacket. The presence of such trapped bubbles is checked for each time the sample is changed. None were found in this run. > Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 14:32:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10694; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:29:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:29:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 16:25:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QqGiu.0.yc2.Cvrbu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, Would you please provide a complete description of the temperature regulation system for your water inlet temperature? I'm mainly curious to see how you did it. It does seem to work pretty well. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 21:41:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16843; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:37:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:37:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38974398.48ED20B8 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:34:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"rsm6d1.0.374.PAybu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> (1) Random error. This is the case where chance fluctuations just happen, >> by pure chance, to generate some apparent "over unity" results. To refute >> this possibility, pair your active cathode with an inactive cathode of the >> same dimensions and do a run first with one, then with the other, until you >> have done, say, 30 runs with each. (If you think the inactive cathode might >> become active due to a surface effect, then scrub it, or dip it in acid, >> etc., between runs to ensure that it remains inactive.) If, after doing >> such a series of runs, you score "over unity" 30 times with the active >> cathode, and score *not* over unity 30 times with the inactive one, then it >> will become utterly implausible to argue that the pattern is due to chance >> ("random error"). The reason: if you get OU numbers half of the time (30 >> out of 30 with the active cathode, 0 out of 30 with the inactive one), and >> if an OU result is assumed to be just a chance coincidence of random noise >> within your calorimeter, then the probability of an OU result would be .5 >> on any given run, and hence the chance probability of getting 30 in a row >> with the active cathode would be (.5)^30 = 9.3x10^-10--i.e., about one in >> ten billion. Thus the way to refute the random error hypothesis is to >> simply repeat your experiment with a paired control, over and over again. > >Two problems exist with this approach. First, a run takes several hundred >hours >to duplicate the behavior being proposed. The kind of study you are proposing >would take many months just to prove to you that one sample made a little >excess >energy. ***{No. I do not suggest that you do a series of 400-plus hour runs like the one we have been discussing, but that you do a series of runs in which you get unambiguous excess power as quickly as you can with the active cathode, and then shut down, replace it with the inactive cathode, and try to get excess power from it. The idea is to repeat such a process until you build up enough paired trials so that you can discount the random error hypothesis. For example, if it takes an average of 10 hours per run to get excess heat out of the active cathode, then it would take 60 times 10 equals 600 hours to do 30 paired runs, which would reduce the probability of a random error explanation down to about 1 in 10 billion. Or, if you would be satisfied with a one in a million probability, you could do 20 paired runs. Or, if you believe one in a thousand odds would constitute adequate proof, you could do 10 paired runs. My point, in short, is not to commit you to some specific number of trials, but to suggest an approach that will enable you to disprove the random error hypothesis. --MJ}*** Meanwhile, my equipment could not be used to search for ways to duplicate >and magnify the effect. ***{If you prove your claims, I suspect that you will be able to obtain funding from private sources, and perhaps even from the government. --MJ}*** The second problem is your definition of random error. >Excess power is based on a combination of many measurements each of which >contains >random fluctuations. You are proposing that these random fluctuations >combine to >produce a mega fluctuation which happens to result in apparent excess >energy when >I place the sample in the cell and happens to gradually cancel to zero when I >apply 1.5 A to the sample. And the pattern repeats itself after I turn >off the >current for awhile. If this is your assertion, I would invite you to the >local >Casino where we can retire rich. ***{No, Ed. What I am saying is that when you have done a small number of runs, quirky explanations are plausible, whereas when you have done large numbers of runs pairing an active cathode with a control, they are not. For example, suppose that you have only done one run. In that case, I can propose that a sporadic electrical failure afflicts the input thermister in your cooling jacket, and produced the increase in the delta-T which led you to think you were observing excess heat. However, if you did 30 runs with the active cathode and 30 with the inactive one, that explanation becomes absurd, because it would then require intelligence on the part of the thermister: it would have to know whether the active or the inactive cathode was in the cell, in order to decide when to fail and when not to fail. --MJ}*** > >> >> On the other hand, as things presently stand, I see no way for you to >> discount the random error hypothesis. >> >> (2) Systematic error. This occurs when an error has the intelligence to >> follow your active cathode for 30 runs, while avoiding the inactive one. >> While such errors are possible, they differ from the random error >> hypothesis in a crucial respect: the person who suggests it must come up >> with a plausible rationale explaining how the error could track the active >> cathode with such unerring accuracy. In my view, there is only one >> "systematic error" hypothesis that might explain your result: the active >> cathode may be simply a cathode which, due to the configuration of >> impurities on its surface, generates a spike pattern that fools your power >> meter, resulting in an undermeasurement of input power to your cell. To >> deal with that possibility, you would need to follow electronics Guru Don >> Lancaster's advice: > >> >> Have you taken any precautions along these lines? For example, how many >> simultaneous samples of current and voltage does your meter take per >> second? What algorithm does it use to compute power? Do you use a scope to >> watch your waveforms? If not, then I see no way at present to discount the >> systematic error hypothesis. > >Each data point is based on an average of 15000 data points of each of the 12 >variables being recorded. ***{I believe you are talking about the measurement of output power here. My inquiry concerned the way you meter your input power. --MJ}*** I have examined many materials of different sizes and >treatments and the effect seems to be related to the ability to achieve a >critical >deuterium activity on the surface and not on any electrical problem. ***{The surface characteristics of the cathode would determine its tendency to produce current spikes under given electrolysis conditions. Hence any time you think you have detected a dependence of "excess heat" on specific electrolysis conditions, there is a possibility that what you are really detecting is a tendency of the cathode to generate current spikes under those conditions. The only way you could rationally decide in favor of the "excess heat" explanation would be to measure your input power so very carefully that you were sure you weren't dealing with "sparking, funny duty cycles," etc--as Don Lancaster said. --MJ}*** Again, I >would ask you why such an error in voltage measurement would change only >after the >current was increased to 1.5 A? Not only change, but change slowly and >smoothly. ***{Actually, the spikes could be current spikes or voltage spikes. The fact that you are running in constant current mode would not preclude current spikes, if the spikes were faster than the current control circuit in your power supply could compensate for. As for why an error in power measurement would drop off disappear at a current setting of 1.5 amps, a possible cause would be that such a current setting is higher than the "sweet spot" at which spikes are most likely to slip through your meter without being measured. As to why the drop off is gradual rather than sudden, my guess would be that the higher current began to remove something from the surface of the cathode which had contributed to the spiking, resulting in a gradual trailing off of the spike frequency. Your belief, of course, is that 1.5 amps is higher than the sweet spot at which your cathode produces "excess heat. However, the only way to be sure the latter explanation is correct rather than the former is to get serious about your input power measurements. To do that, you would need a sophisticated power measuring setup of the sort described in the Don Lancaster quote that I sent you. Without such safeguards, there would be no way for you to know whether you had undermeasured your input power and falsely concluded that you were "over unity." That's why I asked you explicitly what you had done to deal with such problems. And, since you did not answer, I assume the answer is that you, like most OU researchers, have merely purchased off-the-shelf power meters and have assumed that they can be trusted. Unfortunately, when spikes are present, they can't. --MJ}*** > >> As for changing the samples and seeing >> >changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained >>using inert >> >Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data >>acquisition and >> >flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. >> > >> >0.0704 W/deg-flow >> >0.0725 >> >0.0712 >> >0.0721 >> >0.0709 >> >0.0712 >> > >> >On the other hand, values for the isoperibolic constant varied widely in >> >addition to showing nonlinear behavior. I suspect the layer which is >>on the >> >jacket wall changes depending on the temperature it sees. >> >> ***{Agreed. As I mentioned in another post, as temperature rises in a >> liquid, the solubility of dissolved gases decreases, giving rise to a >> tendency for bubbles to form on solid objects which are in contact with the >> liquid. When such bubbles form on thermisters, cylinder walls, etc., they >> are obviously going to alter the temperature readings, the thermal >> conductivity of vessel walls, etc., with net effects that are going to be >> very difficult to predict. --MJ}*** > >No bubbles form on the surfaces because of the stirring action. Even my other >unstirred cell does not show this effect. ***{Bubble formation generally requires a large increase in temperature. I assume, therefore, that the temperature increase of the electrolyte inside the cell, as compared to its temperature before the run, is small. --MJ}*** In any case, this would not apply to the >water flowing through the jacket. ***{Since your delta-T was a bit over 5 deg C across the cell, I wouldn't expect any bubbles to form in the cooling jacket. --MJ}*** On the other hand, when air inadvertently >entered the cooling water stream, changes in calibration were observed because >some of the air remained behind as a trapped bubble at the top of the >jacket. The >presence of such trapped bubbles is checked for each time the sample is >changed. >None were found in this run. ***{If there was no bubble formation, then how do you account for the failure of the inside temperatures to track total power? I recall you mentioned changes in the thermal conductivity of the cell wall, but have no idea *how* you think such changes might come about. (I thought I had two specific factors that would lead to non-correlation between the cell temperature and total power, but then I shot down one of them, and now you seem to have shot down the other. Thus Scott's argument is suddenly looking more plausible to me.) --MJ}*** > >> > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 05:07:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA13890; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 05:06:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 05:06:26 -0800 Message-ID: <38982C07.33392242 powerup.com.au> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:07:19 +1000 From: David Hancock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Consequences of Fascism References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J2Mdx.0.yO3.Il2cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > Why does the establishment prevent the Burnelli Company from producing > its greatly superior and well-proven crash-worthy lifting-body aircraft? Follow the money trail - that almost infallibly shows the real action. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 06:55:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA12634; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:54:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:54:23 -0800 Message-ID: <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:56:04 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control References: <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZMfKj1.0.453.TK4cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I use a Neslab RTE-111 to pump a steady stream of water around a loop. A small amount of water is pulled from this stream at a location near the cell. This water then goes through the cell and through the constant flow pump. The output of the pump is weighed on a balance. When the container on the balance fills, it siphons into a holding container before slowly dripping into the constant temperature bath. This keeps the bath temperature from being changed by a sudden influx of warm water. However, this does not work perfectly so that the cooling water is frequently dumped directly into the bath to avoid some scatter in the values. A FMI RHSY1CKC is used as the constant flow pump, a device which gives excellent service for a very low price. Ed Scott Little wrote: > Ed, > > Would you please provide a complete description of the temperature > regulation system for your water inlet temperature? I'm mainly curious to > see how you did it. It does seem to work pretty well. > > Thanks > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 07:00:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA17521; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:58:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:58:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38982C07.33392242 powerup.com.au> References: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:03:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Consequences of Fascism Resent-Message-ID: <"WoEuE2.0.cH4.XO4cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> Why does the establishment prevent the Burnelli Company from producing >> its greatly superior and well-proven crash-worthy lifting-body aircraft? ***{I don't know where you got the above, but I didn't write it. --MJ}*** > >Follow the money trail - that almost infallibly shows the real action. > >David ***{Money is a goal sought after by people who pursue diverse objectives, and is certainly one of the motivations here. However, the key fact which leads to these sorts of outcomes is simple: opportunity. The problem is that the American political system permits the making of new law. Rather than set up fixed rules at the beginning, based on the principles of natural justice, and simply live under those rules, we have a legislative body--Congress--which passes thousands of new laws per year, and a bureaucracy which passes tens of thousands of regulations to administer those laws. The result is that no one's rights are safe, and vast opportunity exists for politically connected insiders to maneuver behind the scenes, to obtain laws and/or regulations which will protect them from competition. The inevitable outcome, with the passage of sufficient time, is fascism: an economic environment in which all mature industries are dominated by cartels of politically connected insiders, who employ political means to protect their positions, thereby forcing inferior products on a public which is denied alternatives. It is only under such a system that a company such as Burnelli's could be prevented from simply manufacturing its aircraft and selling them to the public. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 07:23:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29895; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:21:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:21:26 -0800 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:26:23 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Flyback 100 mA Plasma Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <20000131022254562.AAA259 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Xp67G3.0.1J7.sj4cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: About shooting pictures of flyback... I cannot read or see them. If you tell me an EASY URL, I will try to borrow time on a machine to look at these. 100 mA at what voltage in the plasma? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 07:55:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09103; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:52:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:52:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:52:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zLg2p.0.4E2.LB5cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little asked: > Ed, > > Would you please provide a complete description of the temperature > regulation system for your water inlet temperature? . . . and Ed responded: >I use a Neslab RTE-111 to pump a steady stream of water around a loop. A >small amount of water is pulled from this stream at a location near the >cell. See?!? See, Scott? What did I tell you! Professional lab equipment wins the day. Ed gave me a shopping list for this calorimeter, and he says that baby costs $2,290. You do great stuff with cheap, clever instruments, but you cannot beat a two-grand Neslab gadget. That was my point the other day, which I think you took amiss and got all huffy about. In the end, you have to spend the bucks, or you end up spending too much time reinventing what the Neslab people already know. As Ed says, we are using shovels and we need bulldozers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 07:59:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11298; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:57:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:57:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000202095811.010cd16c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:58:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Jf9tZ.0.Rm2.sF5cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:56 AM 2/2/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >I use a Neslab RTE-111 to pump a steady stream of water around a loop. A >small amount of water is pulled from this stream at a location near the >cell. Are these lines and the loop insulated from contact with room air? >This water then goes through the cell and through the constant flow >pump. The pump is located after the cell and draws the water thru the cell? >The output of the pump is weighed on a balance. When the container on >the balance fills, it siphons into a holding container before slowly dripping >into the constant temperature bath. This keeps the bath temperature from >being changed by a sudden influx of warm water. However, this does not work >perfectly so that the cooling water is frequently dumped directly into the >bath to avoid some scatter in the values. I can't understand the last sentence above. Try saying it in other words, please. >A FMI RHSY1CKC is used as the >constant flow pump, a device which gives excellent service for a very low >price. I suggest you go to 60 ml/min. That would only halve your delta-T's, which you presently measure with surplus precision (i.e. +/-0.005C out of ~5C...or 0.1% relative). I have found repeatedly that the best flow calorimeter performance (i.e. stability and immunity to ambient variations) comes from using the highest flow rate that still provides a delta-T that can be measured with the desired precision. If I were measuring a 20 watt signal, I would lean towards a flow rate of around 150 ml/min...which would produce a ~2 degree C delta-T, which I can easily measure with a precision of +/-0.004C, which is 0.2% relative...plenty good enough. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 08:25:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02052; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:22:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:22:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:22:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pV6rH3.0.zV.bc5cu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:52 AM 2/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>I use a Neslab RTE-111 to pump a steady stream of water around a loop. A >>small amount of water is pulled from this stream at a location near the >>cell. > >See?!? See, Scott? What did I tell you! Professional lab equipment wins the >day. Why do you say it wins? An examination of Ed's data reveals that his inlet temperature is not nearly as stable as mine typically is: http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run2/run2.html http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html As you can see from these plots, I typically achieve +/- 0.01C stability. There are occasional excursions outside this range but the Tin nevers wanders as much as 0.1C away from the setpoint. Ed also claims +/- 0.01C stability in Table 1 of his report but you can clearly see +/- 0.1C variations in the actual data. See, for example the variations in JACKET IN during the current sweep that runs from line 1665 to 1744 (sweep #5) in the spreadsheet. BTW, a related incident occurred at a well-known lab that I am not at liberty to identify. I visited them and demonstrated my calorimeter. They then built their own system, ignored my advice on the inlet temperature control, and purchased an expensive off-the-shelf bath from Cole-Parmer. They finally admitted months later that they had to add much additional control of their own devising to approach the stability I was getting with my "homemade" system. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 08:39:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26857; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:33:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:33:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38985CA7.2BEA8D0F ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:34:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oMEdw.0.TZ6.Mn5cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > ***{No. I do not suggest that you do a series of 400-plus hour runs like > the one we have been discussing, but that you do a series of runs in which > you get unambiguous excess power as quickly as you can with the active > cathode, and then shut down, replace it with the inactive cathode, and try > to get excess power from it. The idea is to repeat such a process until you > build up enough paired trials so that you can discount the random error > hypothesis. For example, if it takes an average of 10 hours per run to get > excess heat out of the active cathode, then it would take 60 times 10 > equals 600 hours to do 30 paired runs, which would reduce the probability > of a random error explanation down to about 1 in 10 billion. Or, if you > would be satisfied with a one in a million probability, you could do 20 > paired runs. Or, if you believe one in a thousand odds would constitute > adequate proof, you could do 10 paired runs. My point, in short, is not to > commit you to some specific number of trials, but to suggest an approach > that will enable you to disprove the random error hypothesis. --MJ}*** Just as a matter of fact, it takes 17 hrs to make a current sweep and another 5 hours to stabilize the sample when it is first placed in the cell. In addition, you have to assume the sample would respond well to being repeatedly loaded, deloaded and exposed to air. This being said, I do not understand the point of such a procedure. Are you suggesting that the simple process of putting a sample into the calorimeter will introduce a random change which on some occasions will make apparent EP and on some occasions will not? Why then do I not get excess heat more often using other samples? I have placed at least a dozen samples of various kinds in this calorimeter and none except this one showed any EP. In addition, this sample was placed in the calorimeter proceeding the run I described and it made excess at that time. It seems to me that I have already done the experiment you require. Clearly, the onset of EP is not random. > > Meanwhile, my equipment could not be used to search for ways to duplicate > >and magnify the effect. > > ***{If you prove your claims, I suspect that you will be able to obtain > funding from private sources, and perhaps even from the government. --MJ}*** If I prove my claims this is true. However, would doing the kind of experiment you propose do the job? After all, hundreds of successful experiments have been reported involving a wide range of behaviors and this has had no effect. In fact, private money is being applied to the field by people who can see the reality in the vast amount of data already available. > > The second problem is your definition of random error. > >Excess power is based on a combination of many measurements each of which > >contains > >random fluctuations. You are proposing that these random fluctuations > >combine to > >produce a mega fluctuation which happens to result in apparent excess > >energy when > >I place the sample in the cell and happens to gradually cancel to zero when I > >apply 1.5 A to the sample. And the pattern repeats itself after I turn > >off the > >current for awhile. If this is your assertion, I would invite you to the > >local > >Casino where we can retire rich. > > ***{No, Ed. What I am saying is that when you have done a small number of > runs, quirky explanations are plausible, whereas when you have done large > numbers of runs pairing an active cathode with a control, they are not. For > example, suppose that you have only done one run. In that case, I can > propose that a sporadic electrical failure afflicts the input thermister in > your cooling jacket, and produced the increase in the delta-T which led you > to think you were observing excess heat. However, if you did 30 runs with > the active cathode and 30 with the inactive one, that explanation becomes > absurd, because it would then require intelligence on the part of the > thermister: it would have to know whether the active or the inactive > cathode was in the cell, in order to decide when to fail and when not to > fail. --MJ}*** If I had only seen a spike in apparent EP, I would agree and I would ignore such an effect for the reasons you state. However, I have seen EP being produced for days and I can turn it off and on. In addition, it exists over a wide range of applied power. This is not a single observation. In addition, past experience with the calorimeter shows that it does not produce this effect very often, hence it is not a random event. > >> > >> Have you taken any precautions along these lines? For example, how many > >> simultaneous samples of current and voltage does your meter take per > >> second? What algorithm does it use to compute power? Do you use a scope to > >> watch your waveforms? If not, then I see no way at present to discount the > >> systematic error hypothesis. > > > >Each data point is based on an average of 15000 data points of each of the 12 > >variables being recorded. > > ***{I believe you are talking about the measurement of output power here. > My inquiry concerned the way you meter your input power. --MJ}*** A constant current power supply is attached to the cathode and anode. The voltage between the anode and cathode is measured at the cell boundary and current is measured by the voltage drop across a resistor. Where would you propose I measure input power? > > > I have examined many materials of different sizes and > >treatments and the effect seems to be related to the ability to achieve a > >critical > >deuterium activity on the surface and not on any electrical problem. > > ***{The surface characteristics of the cathode would determine its tendency > to produce current spikes under given electrolysis conditions. Hence any > time you think you have detected a dependence of "excess heat" on specific > electrolysis conditions, there is a possibility that what you are really > detecting is a tendency of the cathode to generate current spikes under > those conditions. The only way you could rationally decide in favor of the > "excess heat" explanation would be to measure your input power so very > carefully that you were sure you weren't dealing with "sparking, funny duty > cycles," etc--as Don Lancaster said. --MJ}*** I have never seen significant current or voltage spikes when running electrolytic cells. While the voltage fluctuates because of bubble action, these changes are small. Other than your imagination, do you have any experience or experimental observation to support this idea? > Again, I > >would ask you why such an error in voltage measurement would change only > >after the > >current was increased to 1.5 A? Not only change, but change slowly and > >smoothly. > > ***{Actually, the spikes could be current spikes or voltage spikes. The > fact that you are running in constant current mode would not preclude > current spikes, if the spikes were faster than the current control circuit > in your power supply could compensate for. As for why an error in power > measurement would drop off disappear at a current setting of 1.5 amps, a > possible cause would be that such a current setting is higher than the > "sweet spot" at which spikes are most likely to slip through your meter > without being measured. As to why the drop off is gradual rather than > sudden, my guess would be that the higher current began to remove something > from the surface of the cathode which had contributed to the spiking, > resulting in a gradual trailing off of the spike frequency. Your belief, of > course, is that 1.5 amps is higher than the sweet spot at which your > cathode produces "excess heat. However, the only way to be sure the latter > explanation is correct rather than the former is to get serious about your > input power measurements. To do that, you would need a sophisticated power > measuring setup of the sort described in the Don Lancaster quote that I > sent you. Without such safeguards, there would be no way for you to know > whether you had undermeasured your input power and falsely concluded that > you were "over unity." That's why I asked you explicitly what you had done > to deal with such problems. And, since you did not answer, I assume the > answer is that you, like most OU researchers, have merely purchased > off-the-shelf power meters and have assumed that they can be trusted. > Unfortunately, when spikes are present, they can't. --MJ}*** So you are saying that small changes in the cathode surface, changes that are sensitive to a critical current, can produce a form of spikes in the voltage which not only are missed by the DA systems but which change in a smooth and regular way. In addition, this special condition which exists on the surface is very rare. When it does exist, it can produce errors which look like many watts of EP. Because of this imagined possibility, you want me to purchase expensive equipment and undertake a study of voltage fluctuations. Of course, if I fail to observe such fluctuations, the blame can always be attributed to the limitations of the equipment used, much like the problem Scott is having. If you were doing this kind of work, would you go this route? > > ***{If there was no bubble formation, then how do you account for the > failure of the inside temperatures to track total power? I recall you > mentioned changes in the thermal conductivity of the cell wall, but have no > idea *how* you think such changes might come about. (I thought I had two > specific factors that would lead to non-correlation between the cell > temperature and total power, but then I shot down one of them, and now you > seem to have shot down the other. Thus Scott's argument is suddenly looking > more plausible to me.) --MJ}*** Here are some reasons you require. The inside temperature fails to track small changes in power is because the heat produced by such power generated solely at the cathode is not communicated effectively to the temperature sensors by the stirring action. This is because the cathode is surrounded by the anode structure which hinders free circulation. The thermal conductivity of the cell wall is being influenced by a layer which is clearly visible on the jacket-side surface. This layer, I propose, can change due to bacteria action or simple chemical reaction with the water. Until steps are taken to remove this layer or use a different calorimeter, all this is only speculation. The fact that it is possible to imagine all kinds of processes does not mean they actually occur and it does not mean that the basic data are wrong. The final judgment must rest on the patterns observed in the experimental data. For the proposed processes to be real, they must be consistent with all of the experimental observations, not just one. You can not pick and choose as a way to reject the data any more than I should pick and choose in an effort to support the claims. The entire package of explanations needs to be internally consistent with the data. You are a long way from such consistency. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 08:52:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02681; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:50:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:50:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 11:50:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oUNmx.0.of.Y16cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Why do you say it wins? An examination of Ed's data reveals that his inlet >temperature is not nearly as stable as mine typically is: Okay, Scott, let me put it this way. Suppose you had 2 grand to throw at the cooler problem, and 16 grand for your thermocouple array and base unit (the HP gadget), and $5,000 for the pump, and so on, and so forth. Could you or could you not increase the precision of your instruments by, say, three orders of magnitude without breaking a sweat? And if you could do that, will you grant that other people could build an instrument at least as good as yours in a short time, without worrying much about the details, merely by throwing money at the problem? Yes, after they throw money at the problem, and ignore some of the nifty engineering details you have tackled, they would not end up with an elegant and perfectly designed calorimeter. But they would free up months or years of effort which they could devote to other aspects of this research, such as testing and developing cathode materials. If the CF nut is ever cracked, it will be becomes someone improves the cathode material, not because he improves the state of the art in calorimeters. In my opinion, what you are doing cannot lead to a solution to the CF problem, and it is unlikely to lead to a successful replication by you in your lab, because you are concentrating mainly on the instruments instead of the cathodes. You have to! You have no choice. You don't have thousands and thousands to spend on instruments. That is my point. Take it or leave it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 08:52:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05472; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000401120910.01e339b0 mail.eden.com> References: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:41:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"Ce04R.0.3L1.ny5cu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > >>On the other hand, it is hard to imagine how the excess power reading >>could be off by much, since it would be based on temperature differences >>between the inlet and outlet of the cooling jacket, rather than on >>temperature measurements in the chaotic and unstable environment within the >>cell itself. > >It's not so hard when you actually look at the data. Go back to the plot I >presented in http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/48-64.html The >fluctuations (i.e. noise) in the delta-T trace are not that much smaller >than the fluctuations in the cell temperature traces. ***{My confidence in the instability of the cell temperature measurements has been shaken, because I managed to shoot down my mixing theory, and Ed Storms shot down my bubble theory. Result: I now would expect the temperatures inside the cell to track the sum of measured input power and measured excess power better than they seem to do, assuming that the measured input power and measured excess power are real. Unfortunately, over the interval which you considered, input power rises from 8.74 watts to 8.9 watts, while the sum of input power and excess power *falls* from 9.24 to 9.0 watts. Clearly, if both of these measures are accurate, the cell temperatures will track the sum--which means: they must fall over the interval you considered. Since, in fact, they rose slightly, we have a problem. Since none of us have found a factor that could cause an erroneous rise in the measured cell temperatures, the focus should now shift to Ed's measurements of input power and excess power. To substantiate his input power measurement, Ed should use a scope to look for spikes, funny duty cycles, etc., and employ state of the art metering, as per Don Lancaster's suggestion. As for the excess power measurement, it is merely output power minus input power. Since output power is measured by a simple and straightforward protocol, I don't see much hope of finding an error there. Thus if we cannot find a flaw in the measurement of cell temperature, it would appear that Ed's input power measurements are too low. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 08:55:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04032; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:53:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:53:39 -0800 Message-ID: <38986173.8CAA720D ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:55:27 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control References: <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202095811.010cd16c@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"clZCI.0.p-.I46cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 07:56 AM 2/2/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > >I use a Neslab RTE-111 to pump a steady stream of water around a loop. A > >small amount of water is pulled from this stream at a location near the > >cell. > > Are these lines and the loop insulated from contact with room air? Yes, they are well insulated > > > >This water then goes through the cell and through the constant flow > >pump. > > The pump is located after the cell and draws the water thru the cell? Yes > > >The output of the pump is weighed on a balance. When the container on > >the balance fills, it siphons into a holding container before slowly dripping > >into the constant temperature bath. This keeps the bath temperature from > >being changed by a sudden influx of warm water. However, this does not work > >perfectly so that the cooling water is frequently dumped directly into the > >bath to avoid some scatter in the values. > > I can't understand the last sentence above. Try saying it in other words, > please. When the 600 ml of water on the balance is suddenly dumped into the CT bath, the temperature of the bath from which the cooling water is pumped suddenly changes slightly. This causes a sudden change in the Jacket inlet temperature which produces a spike on the power reading. This effect is reduced by putting the water into a reservoir from which it leaks slowly into the bath. However, even this is not perfect so that the water is directed into the bath from the pump rather than to the beaker on the scales. Although the flow rate can not be monitored, it is so stable that significant error is not introduced. > > > >A FMI RHSY1CKC is used as the > >constant flow pump, a device which gives excellent service for a very low > >price. > > I suggest you go to 60 ml/min. That would only halve your delta-T's, which > you presently measure with surplus precision (i.e. +/-0.005C out of > ~5C...or 0.1% relative). I have found repeatedly that the best flow > calorimeter performance (i.e. stability and immunity to ambient variations) > comes from using the highest flow rate that still provides a delta-T that > can be measured with the desired precision. If I were measuring a 20 watt > signal, I would lean towards a flow rate of around 150 ml/min...which > would produce a ~2 degree C delta-T, which I can easily measure with a > precision of +/-0.004C, which is 0.2% relative...plenty good enough. Thanks for the suggestion. I have found no changes between 22 and 45 g/min. The high flow rate has the disadvantage that the beaker fills more rapidly, hence more data is lost during the siphoning operation. In addition, 150 g/min is above the limit of the pump. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 09:08:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08950; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:05:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:05:23 -0800 Message-ID: <38986439.F444814F ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:07:17 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control References: <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S6ZNc.0.mB2.IF6cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 10:52 AM 2/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > >>I use a Neslab RTE-111 to pump a steady stream of water around a loop. A > >>small amount of water is pulled from this stream at a location near the > >>cell. > > > >See?!? See, Scott? What did I tell you! Professional lab equipment wins the > >day. > > Why do you say it wins? An examination of Ed's data reveals that his inlet > temperature is not nearly as stable as mine typically is: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html > http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run2/run2.html > http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html > > As you can see from these plots, I typically achieve +/- 0.01C stability. > There are occasional excursions outside this range but the Tin nevers > wanders as much as 0.1C away from the setpoint. The bath temperature is +/- 0.01° but the inlet temperature to the cell also is affected by the temperature within the dewar. Because this temperature changes in proportion to power being dumped into the cell, the inlet temperature to the jacket changes. Because this change is gradual and reaches steady-state, it does not affect the accuracy or scatter of the measurements. It is this variation Scott refers to in my data. The advantage of using an off the self item is in not having to spend time duplicating what has been done previously. This only requires money rather than time. If a person has more time than money, the other route also makes sense. Unfortunately, many things still have to be made in house in this field. I would rather spend my time constructing things I can not buy. Ed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 09:08:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10743; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:07:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:07:48 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: The Consequences of Fascism Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:18:36 -0500 Message-ID: <20000202171836875.AAA172 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"SD56U.0.fd2.YH6cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >>> Why does the establishment prevent the Burnelli Company from producing >>> its greatly superior and well-proven crash-worthy lifting-body aircraft? > >***{I don't know where you got the above, but I didn't write it. --MJ}*** Hey Mitch, I compared the above statement with your post of 2-1-2000, and it seems to match pixel for pixel. Did you send that post? Is it different from what you did send? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 09:55:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30659; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:53:23 -0800 Message-ID: <38986F72.1CE4B0C7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:55:13 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I1SC2.0.yU7.Iy6cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > [snip] > > > Clearly, if both of these measures are accurate, the > cell temperatures will track the sum--which means: they must fall over the > interval you considered. Since, in fact, they rose slightly, we have a > problem. Since none of us have found a factor that could cause an erroneous > rise in the measured cell temperatures, the focus should now shift to Ed's > measurements of input power and excess power. To substantiate his input > power measurement, Ed should use a scope to look for spikes, funny duty > cycles, etc., and employ state of the art metering, as per Don Lancaster's > suggestion. As for the excess power measurement, it is merely output power > minus input power. Since output power is measured by a simple and > straightforward protocol, I don't see much hope of finding an error there. > Thus if we cannot find a flaw in the measurement of cell temperature, it > would appear that Ed's input power measurements are too low. I have suggested plausible reasons for the problem with the internal temperature measurement. However, any explanation needs to acknowledge that an error in applied power would affect the flow calorimeter and the isoperibolic calorimeter equally. Therefore, this can not be the explanation for not seeing a change in internal temperature. Also, it is not logical to say that just because an error in cell temperature can not be found, the explanation must be an error in power. Many more variables then these are potential problems. Mitchell has created a logical circle. The internal temperature does not track the flow temperature. A satisfactory explanation to explain the behavior of the internal temperature can not be found. Therefore, the result based on the flow must be wrong. The flow contains so few variables which can be attacked that only an error in applied power can be imagined. However, such an error would also affect the isoperibolic calorimeter equally. So why is the isoperibolic calorimeter not seeing this error in applied power? When the apparent EP goes away, presumably because the spikes go away, why does the isoperibolic calorimeter not also show a decrease in EP? Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 09:57:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32084; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:55:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:55:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000202115620.01d34d54 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 11:56:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA32054 Resent-Message-ID: <"hCFKW1.0.9r7.Y-6cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:50 AM 2/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Okay, Scott, let me put it this way. Suppose you had 2 grand to throw at >the cooler problem, and 16 grand for your thermocouple array and base unit >(the HP gadget), and $5,000 for the pump, and so on, and so forth. Could >you or could you not increase the precision of your instruments by, say, >three orders of magnitude without breaking a sweat? I doubt it. The problems I observe in my calorimeters are not due to inlet temperature instabilities, or temperature measurement inaccuracies, or flow rate instabilities. Instead they mainly involve issues like mysterious variations in the heat recovery efficiency, problems with input power measurements due to electrical noise, influences of ambient temperature variations that somehow make it through my calorimeter's enclosure, etc. Ed wrote: >The bath temperature is +/- 0.01° but the inlet temperature to the cell also is >affected by the temperature within the dewar. Because this temperature changes >in proportion to power being dumped into the cell, the inlet temperature to the >jacket changes. >From this explanation, I would naively expect to see the JACKET IN temperature varying directly with input power. However, from your data, I see that it varies inversely with input power (see, for example, the variation in JACKET IN during current sweep #5, line 1665-1744). What's going on? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 10:45:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18441; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:41:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:41:41 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Flyback 100 mA Plasma Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:52:31 -0500 Message-ID: <20000202185231000.AAA263 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"s0UUD1.0.3W4.af7cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer writes: > > About shooting pictures of flyback... I cannot read or see them. > If you tell me an EASY URL, I will try to borrow time on a machine >to look at these. > > 100 mA at what voltage in the plasma? Hi John, Jean-Luis's main site URL is: http://go.to/jlnlabs/ and it is very well worth reading. From there you can navigate to the site where you can see the plasma discharge test results at: http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm You can also navigate from there to related pages that show the circuit diagragm as well as the close-up construction photos. In all, it is an excellent presentation, including a sound file of the panel, if you have a sound card, and videos of the model craft actually flying, if you have the appropriate video drivers. I would try and print out all everything I could so that you could study it at home, if possible. As far I as I have been able to determine, the input is 30V DC and 1.58A, it goes into a 555 controlled driver circuit, into an automobile ingnition coil, and into the plasma panel which is measured at approx. 2kV/div and 100mA/div. The freq. is approx. 5.8 kHz. The peaks are just under 5kV. What is confusing to me is the AC/DC aspect of the scope photos, and the wave characteristics. I can see your description of a slow rise, fast collapse of the voltage on one of the photos, but on the rest, it appears to be quite symmetrically sinusoidal. I have some online references that I am planning to look at here shortly for better explanations, and if you know of any others, I'd like to know about them too. Sometimes I have to read several people's explanations before the sum total actually makes any sense to me, and I don't want to fool with this kind of voltage without an excellent working knowledge of what to expect. Thanks, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 11:32:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15123; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:29:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:29:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <389885F8.577A9664 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 12:31:25 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control References: <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202115620.01d34d54@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"doaWy3.0.8i3.PM8cu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Ed wrote: > > >The bath temperature is +/- 0.01° but the inlet temperature to the cell > also is > >affected by the temperature within the dewar. Because this temperature > changes > >in proportion to power being dumped into the cell, the inlet temperature > to the > >jacket changes. > > >From this explanation, I would naively expect to see the JACKET IN > temperature varying directly with input power. However, from your data, I > see that it varies inversely with input power (see, for example, the > variation in JACKET IN during current sweep #5, line 1665-1744). What's > going on? I see what you mean. I need to measure the temperature of the bath to see if introduction of the heated water from the jacket is causing the set point to shift. I will get back to you. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 11:54:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18170; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:51:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:51:08 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38985CA7.2BEA8D0F ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:47:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"ecKXE1.0.iR4.eg8cu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> > >> >> ***{No. I do not suggest that you do a series of 400-plus hour runs like >> the one we have been discussing, but that you do a series of runs in which >> you get unambiguous excess power as quickly as you can with the active >> cathode, and then shut down, replace it with the inactive cathode, and try >> to get excess power from it. The idea is to repeat such a process until you >> build up enough paired trials so that you can discount the random error >> hypothesis. For example, if it takes an average of 10 hours per run to get >> excess heat out of the active cathode, then it would take 60 times 10 >> equals 600 hours to do 30 paired runs, which would reduce the probability >> of a random error explanation down to about 1 in 10 billion. Or, if you >> would be satisfied with a one in a million probability, you could do 20 >> paired runs. Or, if you believe one in a thousand odds would constitute >> adequate proof, you could do 10 paired runs. My point, in short, is not to >> commit you to some specific number of trials, but to suggest an approach >> that will enable you to disprove the random error hypothesis. --MJ}*** > >Just as a matter of fact, it takes 17 hrs to make a current sweep and >another 5 >hours to stabilize the sample when it is first placed in the cell. In >addition, >you have to assume the sample would respond well to being repeatedly loaded, >deloaded and exposed to air. ***{Could you provide some elaboration concerning what you mean by a "current sweep" and "stabilizing the sample"? The more detail the better. (The devil is in the details, as they say.) --MJ}*** > >This being said, I do not understand the point of such a procedure. Are you >suggesting that the simple process of putting a sample into the >calorimeter will >introduce a random change which on some occasions will make apparent EP and on >some occasions will not? Why then do I not get excess heat more often >using other >samples? I have placed at least a dozen samples of various kinds in this >calorimeter and none except this one showed any EP. In addition, this >sample was >placed in the calorimeter proceeding the run I described and it made excess at >that time. It seems to me that I have already done the experiment you >require. >Clearly, the onset of EP is not random. ***{In your judgment that is so, but can you demonstrate it by means of a calculation? That is the goal of my suggestion: if you do paired runs in which you match an active cathode with an inactive control, and you observe that the excess heat always follows the control, and you do enough runs of that type, then you will be in a position to flatly prove, via a mathematical calculation, that such variations cannot reasonably be attributed to chance. I am aware that putting yourself in a position to provide such a mathematical proof will require a lot of work, but so long as the number of runs you have done remains low, it will remain possible that your results are due to chance. --MJ}*** > >> >> Meanwhile, my equipment could not be used to search for ways to duplicate >> >and magnify the effect. >> >> ***{If you prove your claims, I suspect that you will be able to obtain >> funding from private sources, and perhaps even from the government. --MJ}*** > >If I prove my claims this is true. However, would doing the kind of >experiment >you propose do the job? After all, hundreds of successful experiments have >been >reported involving a wide range of behaviors and this has had no effect. ***{You would have to complete the proof. Discounting random error is only half of the game. The other side would involve discounting systematic error, and, as I said, the only type of systematic error which seems capable of explaining all of the electrochemical cell results would be the undermeasurement of input power. Thus you would need to address that question in a very serious way, to complete your demonstration that the CF effect is real. --MJ}*** In fact, >private money is being applied to the field by people who can see the >reality in >the vast amount of data already available. > >> >> The second problem is your definition of random error. >> >Excess power is based on a combination of many measurements each of which >> >contains >> >random fluctuations. You are proposing that these random fluctuations >> >combine to >> >produce a mega fluctuation which happens to result in apparent excess >> >energy when >> >I place the sample in the cell and happens to gradually cancel to zero >>when I >> >apply 1.5 A to the sample. And the pattern repeats itself after I turn >> >off the >> >current for awhile. If this is your assertion, I would invite you to the >> >local >> >Casino where we can retire rich. >> >> ***{No, Ed. What I am saying is that when you have done a small number of >> runs, quirky explanations are plausible, whereas when you have done large >> numbers of runs pairing an active cathode with a control, they are not. For >> example, suppose that you have only done one run. In that case, I can >> propose that a sporadic electrical failure afflicts the input thermister in >> your cooling jacket, and produced the increase in the delta-T which led you >> to think you were observing excess heat. However, if you did 30 runs with >> the active cathode and 30 with the inactive one, that explanation becomes >> absurd, because it would then require intelligence on the part of the >> thermister: it would have to know whether the active or the inactive >> cathode was in the cell, in order to decide when to fail and when not to >> fail. --MJ}*** > >If I had only seen a spike in apparent EP, I would agree and I would >ignore such >an effect for the reasons you state. However, I have seen EP being >produced for >days and I can turn it off and on. In addition, it exists over a wide >range of >applied power. This is not a single observation. In addition, past >experience >with the calorimeter shows that it does not produce this effect very >often, hence >it is not a random event. ***{Perhaps you are correct in your assessment of the situation, but you must distinguish between the type of information that is necessary to convince you, and the type which is required to convince reasonable outsiders. To convince a reasonable outsider, you must structure your runs in such a way that you can do numerical calculations which prove the results are not due to chance. That's why I suggested repeated paired runs, each involving an active cathode and a control: such a protocol lends itself to probability calculations which any educated person can understand, and thus is capable of generating compelling proof. As your experiments are structured at present, I see no way that you can prove the effect is real. --MJ}*** > >> >> >> >> Have you taken any precautions along these lines? For example, how many >> >> simultaneous samples of current and voltage does your meter take per >> >> second? What algorithm does it use to compute power? Do you use a >>scope to >> >> watch your waveforms? If not, then I see no way at present to >>discount the >> >> systematic error hypothesis. >> > >> >Each data point is based on an average of 15000 data points of each of >>the 12 >> >variables being recorded. >> >> ***{I believe you are talking about the measurement of output power here. >> My inquiry concerned the way you meter your input power. --MJ}*** > >A constant current power supply is attached to the cathode and anode. The >voltage >between the anode and cathode is measured at the cell boundary and current is >measured by the voltage drop across a resistor. Where would you propose I >measure >input power? ***{I'm sure the locations that you are presently using are fine. The problem is not with the locations, but with the degree to which your methodology leaves you vulnerable to brief current spikes. The problem is that even though you are operating in constant current mode, it is possible for current spikes to occur that are too brief for the current control circuit in your power supply to compensate. And, due to the inertial dampening that is necessary to make an ammeter display readable, such spikes will not alter the reading which they display. Thus if you have your power supply set at 1 amp, and your ammeter reads 1 amp, and such a transient flashes by, it will not affect the meter, which will still register 1 amp. Moreover, the frequency of such spikes can rise to fairly high levels without affecting the displayed value, depending on the internal workings of the particular ammeter. Why is this so? Because you are using a DC scale setting to measure what, in effect, is an alternating current. That means you are operating the ammeter outside of its intended specs, and the frequent result of such operation is an undermeasurement of input current. Result: when you multiply that undermeasured current value by the various voltage readings which you also measured, the result is an average which is too low, and an input power calculation that is too low. That's why Don Lancaster recommended taking 15,000 simultaneous measurements of current and voltage per second, digitally multiplying them together, and then averaging, summing, and scaling, using either a PIC or a PC. When you take 15,000 samples a second, the current spikes will have to be very brief indeed, in order to be missed. However, since even that is possible, he also recommends monitoring the waveforms with a fast scope, to be sure very fast spikes, oddball duty cycles, etc., are not screwing things up. --MJ}*** > >> >> >> I have examined many materials of different sizes and >> >treatments and the effect seems to be related to the ability to achieve a >> >critical >> >deuterium activity on the surface and not on any electrical problem. >> >> ***{The surface characteristics of the cathode would determine its tendency >> to produce current spikes under given electrolysis conditions. Hence any >> time you think you have detected a dependence of "excess heat" on specific >> electrolysis conditions, there is a possibility that what you are really >> detecting is a tendency of the cathode to generate current spikes under >> those conditions. The only way you could rationally decide in favor of the >> "excess heat" explanation would be to measure your input power so very >> carefully that you were sure you weren't dealing with "sparking, funny duty >> cycles," etc--as Don Lancaster said. --MJ}*** > >I have never seen significant current or voltage spikes when running >electrolytic >cells. ***{Your current spikes were "not seen" by what means? By eyeballing an ammeter set to a DC scale? For the reasons given above, that won't work. You need a fast scope to answer such questions. Do you have one? Precisely what instruments are you using to measure current and voltage, and by what instruments and procedures do you calculate input power? --MJ}*** While the voltage fluctuates because of bubble action, these changes are >small. Other than your imagination, do you have any experience or >experimental >observation to support this idea? ***{Ed, if current spikes are occurring at the cathode-electrolyte interface, they have the potential to muck up your input power measurements, and give rise to a false calculation of an "over unity" result. That is obvious. Whether they are actually present is something you can only determine by putting a fast scope on your cell and watching the waveform. Have you actually done that? If so, then unless the current trace is rock solid, you are going to need to take thousands of simultaneous current and voltage samples per second and actually compute the effects of the current variation on the power, via a PIC or PC, before you can know that your 3% excess is real. --MJ}*** > >> Again, I >> >would ask you why such an error in voltage measurement would change only >> >after the >> >current was increased to 1.5 A? Not only change, but change slowly and >> >smoothly. >> >> ***{Actually, the spikes could be current spikes or voltage spikes. The >> fact that you are running in constant current mode would not preclude >> current spikes, if the spikes were faster than the current control circuit >> in your power supply could compensate for. As for why an error in power >> measurement would drop off disappear at a current setting of 1.5 amps, a >> possible cause would be that such a current setting is higher than the >> "sweet spot" at which spikes are most likely to slip through your meter >> without being measured. As to why the drop off is gradual rather than >> sudden, my guess would be that the higher current began to remove something >> from the surface of the cathode which had contributed to the spiking, >> resulting in a gradual trailing off of the spike frequency. Your belief, of >> course, is that 1.5 amps is higher than the sweet spot at which your >> cathode produces "excess heat. However, the only way to be sure the latter >> explanation is correct rather than the former is to get serious about your >> input power measurements. To do that, you would need a sophisticated power >> measuring setup of the sort described in the Don Lancaster quote that I >> sent you. Without such safeguards, there would be no way for you to know >> whether you had undermeasured your input power and falsely concluded that >> you were "over unity." That's why I asked you explicitly what you had done >> to deal with such problems. And, since you did not answer, I assume the >> answer is that you, like most OU researchers, have merely purchased >> off-the-shelf power meters and have assumed that they can be trusted. >> Unfortunately, when spikes are present, they can't. --MJ}*** > >So you are saying that small changes in the cathode surface, changes that are >sensitive to a critical current, can produce a form of spikes in the >voltage which >not only are missed by the DA systems but which change in a smooth and regular >way. In addition, this special condition which exists on the surface is very >rare. When it does exist, it can produce errors which look like many watts of >EP. Because of this imagined possibility, you want me to purchase expensive >equipment and undertake a study of voltage fluctuations. ***{One "imagined possibility" is that a special condition of the cathode, in the appropriate electrochemical environment, gives rise to "excess heat." Another imagined possibility is that a special condition of the cathode, given vulnerable measuring instruments and the appropriate electrochemical environment, gives rise to spikes which cause an undermeasurement of input power. The first imagined possibility flies in the face of much that is currently known about physics. The second is totally mundane, and flies in the face of no physics at all. Moreover, the second possibility explains the replication difficulties which CF proponents have experienced, since it would require them to not merely reproduce the cell conditions of the prior "excess heat" experiment, but also to use the same instruments to measure input power, in order to successfully replicate the effect. Hence I consider it eminently reasonable that, if you want to demonstrate the former possibility, you should perform the steps that are necessary to discount the latter one. --MJ}*** Of course, if I fail to >observe such fluctuations, the blame can always be attributed to the >limitations >of the equipment used, much like the problem Scott is having. If you were >doing >this kind of work, would you go this route? ***{Of course I would, if I were attempting to assemble evidence that would convince reasonable people--including myself--that the CF effect is real. After all, how can you possibly distinguish between the two above listed hypotheses, if you do not purchase the equipment you need in order to do so? --MJ}*** > >> >> ***{If there was no bubble formation, then how do you account for the >> failure of the inside temperatures to track total power? I recall you >> mentioned changes in the thermal conductivity of the cell wall, but have no >> idea *how* you think such changes might come about. (I thought I had two >> specific factors that would lead to non-correlation between the cell >> temperature and total power, but then I shot down one of them, and now you >> seem to have shot down the other. Thus Scott's argument is suddenly looking >> more plausible to me.) --MJ}*** > >Here are some reasons you require. > >The inside temperature fails to track small changes in power is because >the heat >produced by such power generated solely at the cathode is not communicated >effectively to the temperature sensors by the stirring action. This is >because >the cathode is surrounded by the anode structure which hinders free >circulation. ***{If cell temperature failed to track small changes in power over intervals of a few seconds or minutes, the above explanation would be reasonable, because there would be a brief delay while heat that had been absorbed into the anode was communicated to the surrounding solution. However, since the interval studied by Scott was 16 hours, I should think that would provide plenty of time for the heat to pass from cathode to anode and, thence, into the surrounding electrolyte. There is simply *no way* total power can decline for close to 16 hours while cell temperature rises, as a result of the effect that you propose. --MJ}*** > >The thermal conductivity of the cell wall is being influenced by a layer >which is >clearly visible on the jacket-side surface. This layer, I propose, can >change due >to bacteria action or simple chemical reaction with the water. Until >steps are >taken to remove this layer or use a different calorimeter, all this is only >speculation. ***{Is this layer evenly distributed over the outer cell surface, or does it appear thicker near the cold water inlet and thinner near the hot water inlet? If the latter, then it will be thicker over the inlet thermister than over the outlet thermister, and could give rise to a false reading of excess heat. --MJ}*** > >The fact that it is possible to imagine all kinds of processes does not >mean they >actually occur and it does not mean that the basic data are wrong. The final >judgment must rest on the patterns observed in the experimental data. For the >proposed processes to be real, they must be consistent with all of the >experimental observations, not just one. You can not pick and choose as a >way to >reject the data any more than I should pick and choose in an effort to >support the >claims. The entire package of explanations needs to be internally >consistent with >the data. You are a long way from such consistency. ***{Um, I think this hypothesis (i.e., that a special condition of the cathode, given vulnerable instrumentation and the appropriate electrochemical environment, gives rise to spikes which cause an undermeasurement of input power) applies to *all* of the claimed OU electrochemical results. Further, with minor tweaking it also applies to the rotating drum OU results (e.g., the Griggs "Hydrosonic Pump"). Indeed, it applies to all of the CF related experiments that attempt to measure electrical input power (rather than some presumably correlated parameter such as excess helium), as far as I am aware. That's pretty consistent, if you ask me. --MJ}*** > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 12:27:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27522; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:25:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:25:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000202152431.007a5920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 15:24:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000202115620.01d34d54 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JaKNN.0.uj6.9B9cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >>Okay, Scott, let me put it this way. Suppose you had 2 grand to throw at >>the cooler problem, and 16 grand for your thermocouple array and base unit >>(the HP gadget), and $5,000 for the pump, and so on, and so forth. Could >>you or could you not increase the precision of your instruments by, say, >>three orders of magnitude without breaking a sweat? > >I doubt it. The problems I observe in my calorimeters are not due to inlet >temperature instabilities, or temperature measurement inaccuracies, or flow >rate instabilities. Instead they mainly involve issues like mysterious >variations in the heat recovery efficiency, problems with input power >measurements due to electrical noise, influences of ambient temperature >variations that somehow make it through my calorimeter's enclosure, etc. OKAY! Now we are getting somewhere. I wasn't finished with my imaginary shopping spree. Suppose Santa also brings you a $25,000 input power meter, a dozen specially made cells with uniform thickness wall, a $10,000 constant temperature enclosure, and heck -- while we are at it -- a $250,000 HVAC system in a $5 million laboratory building that keeps ambient air very clean and holds air temperature to within 0.1 deg C. How 'bout it? Would that be enough to shoot your troubles? If not, feel free to add to the list. Keep adding stuff until you look like SRI, or a clean room at a large corporation, or Los Alamos. Don't say it can't be done! Actually, it may be that you toss out this imaginary $500,000 pile of stuff, bring in one Thermonetics Calvet calorimeter and a few other things, and achieve nearly as much accuracy and precision, for a mere $15,000. That's what Ben Bush said, after working with the SRI calorimeter, which he calls "the great white elephant." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 12:41:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01660; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:39:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:39:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:36:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control Resent-Message-ID: <"JlaTK.0.qP.dN9cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott Little wrote: > >>Why do you say it wins? An examination of Ed's data reveals that his inlet >>temperature is not nearly as stable as mine typically is: > >Okay, Scott, let me put it this way. Suppose you had 2 grand to throw at >the cooler problem, and 16 grand for your thermocouple array and base unit >(the HP gadget), and $5,000 for the pump, and so on, and so forth. Could >you or could you not increase the precision of your instruments by, say, >three orders of magnitude without breaking a sweat? ***{Scott has sufficient understanding of the problem so that he could probably do that, but that doesn't mean others, with less understanding, could get equal value for the same amount of money. Having money is only part of the solution. The other and more important part is having the brains to know where to spend the money you have. --MJ}*** And if you could do >that, will you grant that other people could build an instrument at least >as good as yours in a short time, without worrying much about the details, >merely by throwing money at the problem? ***{Problems are solved with brains, not money. The fact that Scott might be able to do something tells you nothing about whether someone else could do it. For example, I remember an expensive study, funded by a $200,000 government grant about 20 years ago, which reached an obviously false conclusion that was immediately and flatly refuted by means of a simple home experiment which cost less than $100. Thus your notion that money can be substituted for brains is simply false. Even if you have money, you have to also have the good sense to recognize who has brains and who doesn't, if you do not want to throw your money away. The point is simple: you can substitute brains for money, but you can't substitute money for brains. --MJ}*** > >Yes, after they throw money at the problem, and ignore some of the nifty >engineering details you have tackled, they would not end up with an elegant >and perfectly designed calorimeter. But they would free up months or years >of effort which they could devote to other aspects of this research, such >as testing and developing cathode materials. If the CF nut is ever cracked, >it will be becomes someone improves the cathode material, not because he >improves the state of the art in calorimeters. In my opinion, what you are >doing cannot lead to a solution to the CF problem, and it is unlikely to >lead to a successful replication by you in your lab, because you are >concentrating mainly on the instruments instead of the cathodes. You have >to! You have no choice. You don't have thousands and thousands to spend on >instruments. ***{Somebody needs to focus on the instruments, if this issue is to be settled one way or the other, because the major competing hypothesis is that current spikes are causing an undermeasurement of input power in all of these supposedly OU electrochemical cells. I find it rather ironic that the only guy who is doing these experiments with a focus on the instruments is Scott Little, and he is also the only persistent player in this field who has never gotten an OU result! That suggests to me that it is precisely their indifference to and ignorance of the way their instruments work, which is the necessary precondition which enables CF researchers to get OU results. --MJ}*** > >That is my point. Take it or leave it. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 12:54:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07936; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:51:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:51:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:47:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: More Unneeded Airplane Fatalities Resent-Message-ID: <"iY1-8.0.qx1.tY9cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ***{I just received this e-mail from aircrash wilkes.com. --MJ}*** Ten More People Die in ground collision between airliner & military transport. This just in from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_628000/628186.stm Reports from Iran say 10 people were killed in a collision between two planes on the ground at the main airport in Tehran. Civil aviation chief Behzad Mazaheri told AFP news agency that 10 Iranian soldiers had been burned alive when their transport crashed into an airliner after a technical failure on take-off. The official Iranian news agency said an Iran Air passenger plane had been taxiing towards a aircraft hangar when it hit a military cargo plane speeding for take-off. Both aircraft caught fire and it took several hours to put out the flames. Such accidents should not yield these kinds of death tolls. See http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/mchnx41a.htm for an excellent article on how one can substantially increase the survivability of aircraft. See also the comment made by: GEORGE H. TRYON, III, Secretary of the National Fire Protection Association, in the Quarterly of the National Fire Protection Association (Vol 40, No. 4) of April 1947 on page 264 states: "Moving the landing gear inboard and strengthening the fuselage to absorb the shock of landing would eliminate applying stress to the fuel tank supporting structure. This revision of the commonplace has been accomplished in the Burnelli "lifting body" design. Another feature of this latter type aircraft is the shifting of fuel tanks so that they are not in direct line with the power plants and their exhaust outlets." (you can find this quote and more by experts in their fields at: http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/experts.htm) Of course, while it isn't specified in the article about the Iranian accident, it's easy to imagine that the source of ignition for the fire was one or more engines - located below or in line with the fuel tanks. If you had the opportunity to buy a car whose fuel tank was located above the engine - would you buy it, would you ride in it? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is the Survival of plane-crash victims called "miraculous"? Is there an alternative to miracles? ----- www.aircrash.org. ----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 13:14:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15352; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:12:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:12:37 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000202151256.01d37818 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 15:12:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000202152431.007a5920 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000202115620.01d34d54 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"guMyS1.0.nl3.4t9cu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:24 PM 2/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Suppose Santa also brings you a $25,000 input power meter.... >Keep adding stuff until you look like SRI, or a clean room at a >large corporation, or Los Alamos. Sure that would help...but it doesn't eliminate the fact that you still have to make your own heat exchanger, your own water temp measuring stations (yes, you can buy the probes but you've got to dip them in the water right or you don't get the right answer), etc. I still maintain that most of the potential for error in this kind of calorimetry lies in the necessarily homemade parts of the system. >Actually, it may be that you toss out this imaginary $500,000 pile of >stuff, bring in one Thermonetics Calvet calorimeter and a few other things, >and achieve nearly as much accuracy and precision, for a mere $15,000. We had one of those units here for over a year (on lease). It was at least as error-prone as the calorimeters I've designed and built myself. Because of a relatively low delta-T across the walls, it required an extraordinarily stable outside temperature to produce stable results at low power levels. We could ALWAYS see room temperature variations mirrored in its output. We had a great deal of trouble eliminating electrical noise from its millivolt output signal. Also, it failed rather miserably on a heat location sensitivity test, which was surprising because a Seebeck envelope is supposed to excel in that category. I am pretty sure that something was wrong with one of the 6 panels in the particular unit we had but Poppendieck never confirmed/admitted it. The message here is that owners of Seebeck envelope calorimeters should deliberately test the heat location sensitivity of their system, rather than assuming that it is perfect. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 13:25:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19081; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:23:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:23:31 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Flyback 100 mA Plasma Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:34:10 -0500 Message-ID: <20000202213410515.AAA276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"M8iCc1.0.-f4.I1Acu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Schnurer writes: > > About shooting pictures of flyback... I cannot read or see them. > If you tell me an EASY URL, I will try to borrow time on a machine >to look at these. > > 100 mA at what voltage in the plasma? Hi John, Jean-Luis's main site URL is: http://go.to/jlnlabs/ and it is very well worth reading. From there you can navigate to the site where you can see the plasma discharge test results at: http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm You can also navigate from there to related pages that show the circuit diagragm as well as the close-up construction photos. In all, it is an excellent presentation, including a sound file of the panel, if you have a sound card, and videos of the model craft actually flying, if you have the appropriate video drivers. I would try and print out all everything I could so that you could study it at home, if possible. As far I as I have been able to determine, the input is 30V DC and 1.58A, it goes into a 555 controlled driver circuit, into an automobile ingnition coil, and into the plasma panel which is measured at approx. 2kV/div and 100mA/div. The freq. is approx. 5.8 kHz. The peaks are just under 5kV. What is confusing to me is the AC/DC aspect of the scope photos, and the wave characteristics. I can see your description of a slow rise, fast collapse of the voltage on one of the photos, but on the rest, it appears to be quite symmetrically sinusoidal. I have some online references that I am planning to look at here shortly for better explanations, and if you know of any others, I'd like to know about them too. Sometimes I have to read several people's explanations before the sum total actually makes any sense to me, and I don't want to fool with this kind of voltage without an excellent working knowledge of what to expect. Thanks, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 13:52:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28671; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:51:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:51:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000202164001.007a84e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:40:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000202151256.01d37818 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000202152431.007a5920 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202115620.01d34d54 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ToNBL.0.u_6.HRAcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Sure that would help...but it doesn't eliminate the fact that you still >have to make your own heat exchanger, your own water temp measuring >stations (yes, you can buy the probes but you've got to dip them in the >water right or you don't get the right answer), etc. I still maintain that >most of the potential for error in this kind of calorimetry lies in the >necessarily homemade parts of the system. Well, Scott, as long as I am spending imaginary money, I will throw in a $30,000 fee paid to a consulting engineering firm to design and install the calorimeter. That's about how much Hydrodynamics paid, I think. Or, if our imaginary researcher is John Bockris and he has the right friends, he can have the best calorimetry expert in Texas drop by and give his system the once-over. I am strong believer in letting other people do their jobs. Mizuno, for example, buys his cells ready-made from the Santsuri Company, a precision parts manufacturer. Unfortunately the guy who owns and runs the company, Mr. Mori, is in his 70s and he may retire soon. Mizuno says there is no one left in Japan who knows how to make machines and objects from scratch. Everyone thinks machines grow on the Internet, by magic. My point is, again, this is conventional physics. Other people have mastered it long ago. With enough money their tools and their expertise can be bought. In order to do cold fusion you must go beyond what they know and tackle the problems which have *not* been mastered, especially cathode materials. >We had one of those units here for over a year (on lease). It was at least >as error-prone as the calorimeters I've designed and built myself. Because >of a relatively low delta-T across the walls, it required an >extraordinarily stable outside temperature to produce stable results at low >power levels. So I have heard. That's why I said $15,000, which includes a top notch water bath. I hope that does the trick. > We could ALWAYS see room temperature variations mirrored in >its output. We had a great deal of trouble eliminating electrical noise >from its millivolt output signal. That's not good! >Also, it failed rather miserably on a heat location sensitivity test, which >was surprising because a Seebeck envelope is supposed to excel in that >category. What is the point of that? Who cares? And how can you tell if all of the TCs are hooked together nose to tail? I thought the entire box generated one signal. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 13:56:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30091; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:55:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:55:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:54:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nvpPk1.0._L7.2VAcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: I find it rather ironic that >the only guy who is doing these experiments with a focus on the instruments >is Scott Little, and he is also the only persistent player in this field >who has never gotten an OU result! Ironic?!? That's not ironic, it's preposterous. Go to any ICCF conference and you will meet 300 people who are focused on instruments. Read Martin Fleischmann's papers! Read anything from SRI, or any Japanese paper on CF, except perhaps Mizuno's. Three-fourths of every paper seems to be about calibration. When these people lecture, many of them never get past that stage. They are still lovingly describing their instruments when time runs out, and we never hear whether the cathode produced heat. Have a look at the $75 million beam they use for CF experiments at Osaka U. They spend a lot of time monkeying with that instrument! Your horizon appears somewhat limited. You appear to think that everyone who does CF posts here, on Vortex. That suggests to me that it is precisely >their indifference to and ignorance of the way their instruments work, >which is the necessary precondition which enables CF researchers to get OU >results. This suggests to me that you are totally, 100% ignorant of 99.9% of the CF literature. Maybe 99.999%. I have said many nasty things about mainstream CF scientists, but the idea that they are "indifferent" about the way their instruments work never crossed my mind. That's like accusing teenagers of being indifferent about sex. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 16:44:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13024; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:42:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:42:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:37:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control Resent-Message-ID: <"xuvyC2.0.GB3.exCcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >I find it rather ironic that >>the only guy who is doing these experiments with a focus on the instruments >>is Scott Little, and he is also the only persistent player in this field >>who has never gotten an OU result! > >Ironic?!? That's not ironic, it's preposterous. Go to any ICCF conference >and you will meet 300 people who are focused on instruments. ***{You said it, not I. Here are your exact words, to Scott, taken from the material which you snipped, and to which I was merely responding: "In my opinion, what you are doing cannot lead to a solution to the CF problem, and it is unlikely to lead to a successful replication by you in your lab, because you are concentrating mainly on the instruments instead of the cathodes." Since you evidently cannot remember contextual remarks that you have snipped, even when they were statements made by you, I would suggest that in the future you snip less before writing a reply. --Mitchell Jones}*** Read Martin >Fleischmann's papers! Read anything from SRI, or any Japanese paper on CF, >except perhaps Mizuno's. Three-fourths of every paper seems to be about >calibration. When these people lecture, many of them never get past that >stage. They are still lovingly describing their instruments when time runs >out, and we never hear whether the cathode produced heat. Have a look at >the $75 million beam they use for CF experiments at Osaka U. They spend a >lot of time monkeying with that instrument! > >Your horizon appears somewhat limited. You appear to think that everyone >who does CF posts here, on Vortex. ***{My horizon is not so limited that I cannot remember what I myself have said, just moments before. --MJ}*** > > > That suggests to me that it is precisely >>their indifference to and ignorance of the way their instruments work, >>which is the necessary precondition which enables CF researchers to get OU >>results. > >This suggests to me that you are totally, 100% ignorant of 99.9% of the CF >literature. Maybe 99.999%. I have said many nasty things about mainstream >CF scientists, but the idea that they are "indifferent" about the way their >instruments work never crossed my mind. That's like accusing teenagers of >being indifferent about sex. ***{Given the context of the ongoing discussion in this group, and the voluminous comments I posted on this very subject earlier today, it should not be necessary for me to explain what I meant by the above. However, being an obliging sort, I'm going to do so anyway. When I said, above, that indifference to and ignorance of the way their instruments work may be the necessary precondition which enables CF researchers to get OU results, I was referring to the instruments which are used to measure input power. The point is that I have seen no detailed discussion, in any of the studies I have read, of the possibility that spikes in the current flow might lead to undermeasurement of input power, and no indication that any measures were taken by the experimenters to deal with that possibility. Instead, I see in the typical case no acknowledgment that there might even be a problem in this area. The focus is on calorimetric techniques, mass spec results, neutron fluxes, etc., but never on input power measurements. The power metering instruments are treated as black boxes of no importance, as if they possessed the simplicity and sure-footed reliability of a mercury thermometer or a Prony brake dynamometer. In fact, you behave that way yourself. You seem to think you need merely note that an experimenter has used black boxes from more than one manufacturer, brush your hands together, and move on to the next objection. Well, it won't work. Power measurements are notoriously difficult in situations where high frequency current spikes may be present, and until CF researchers in general wake up to the fact that they need to address these questions, no educated and reasonable person will be convinced by their results. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 20:18:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17113; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:16:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:16:55 -0800 Message-ID: <38990177.36893372 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 21:18:33 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"drYPP2.0.JB4.s4Gcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >> > >> ***{No. I do not suggest that you do a series of 400-plus hour runs like > >> the one we have been discussing, but that you do a series of runs in which > >> you get unambiguous excess power as quickly as you can with the active > >> cathode, and then shut down, replace it with the inactive cathode, and try > >> to get excess power from it. The idea is to repeat such a process until you > >> build up enough paired trials so that you can discount the random error > >> hypothesis. For example, if it takes an average of 10 hours per run to get > >> excess heat out of the active cathode, then it would take 60 times 10 > >> equals 600 hours to do 30 paired runs, which would reduce the probability > >> of a random error explanation down to about 1 in 10 billion. Or, if you > >> would be satisfied with a one in a million probability, you could do 20 > >> paired runs. Or, if you believe one in a thousand odds would constitute > >> adequate proof, you could do 10 paired runs. My point, in short, is not to > >> commit you to some specific number of trials, but to suggest an approach > >> that will enable you to disprove the random error hypothesis. --MJ}*** > > > >Just as a matter of fact, it takes 17 hrs to make a current sweep and > >another 5 > >hours to stabilize the sample when it is first placed in the cell. In > >addition, > >you have to assume the sample would respond well to being repeatedly loaded, > >deloaded and exposed to air. > > ***{Could you provide some elaboration concerning what you mean by a > "current sweep" and "stabilizing the sample"? The more detail the better. > (The devil is in the details, as they say.) --MJ}*** The current is stepped up and than down to give 16 data sets. At each current, the cell is allowed to equilibrate and 5 data points are taken. These are the points which are plotted on the graphs and labeled current sweep. This procedure is used during calibration as well as when EP is being explored. After the sample is loaded into the calorimeter, the instrument must achieve thermal equilibrium and the sample loaded with D. I like to take at least 5 hours for this process. > >This being said, I do not understand the point of such a procedure. Are you > >suggesting that the simple process of putting a sample into the > >calorimeter will > >introduce a random change which on some occasions will make apparent EP and on > >some occasions will not? Why then do I not get excess heat more often > >using other > >samples? I have placed at least a dozen samples of various kinds in this > >calorimeter and none except this one showed any EP. In addition, this > >sample was > >placed in the calorimeter proceeding the run I described and it made excess at > >that time. It seems to me that I have already done the experiment you > >require. > >Clearly, the onset of EP is not random. > > ***{In your judgment that is so, but can you demonstrate it by means of a > calculation? That is the goal of my suggestion: if you do paired runs in > which you match an active cathode with an inactive control, and you observe > that the excess heat always follows the control, and you do enough runs of > that type, then you will be in a position to flatly prove, via a > mathematical calculation, that such variations cannot reasonably be > attributed to chance. I am aware that putting yourself in a position to > provide such a mathematical proof will require a lot of work, but so long > as the number of runs you have done remains low, it will remain possible > that your results are due to chance. --MJ}*** You are asking me to apply an arbitrary mathematical form to define the random nature of the data. If the process is random, then each time I load any sample, I should have a chance of seeing EP. However, I have loaded "any sample" many times and have not seen the effect except with this sample. Does this not represent a test of a random process? To be more exact, preceding the active run which I described, I had been studying a dead sample. At the end of the run, I took this sample out and loaded what I thought was dead platinum to make a calibration. However, the dead Pt showed evidence for EP based on an earlier calibration. I then took this sample out and loaded a clean, new piece of Pt. This calibration agreed with the previous one. The active sample was again placed in the cell and the published run was done. At the end of this run the active sample was removed and a dead Pt was again placed in the cell. It agreed with the previous calibrations. Now you claim that these several substitutions of the kind you suggest still allow a random argument to be made. Meanwhile you choose to completely ignore all of the exchanges between dead samples which show no EP. I find this approach arbitrary and designed to provide a strawman to reject the claims. > > >> Meanwhile, my equipment could not be used to search for ways to duplicate > >> >and magnify the effect. > >> > >> ***{If you prove your claims, I suspect that you will be able to obtain > >> funding from private sources, and perhaps even from the government. --MJ}*** > > > >If I prove my claims this is true. However, would doing the kind of > >experiment > >you propose do the job? After all, hundreds of successful experiments have > >been > >reported involving a wide range of behaviors and this has had no effect. > > ***{You would have to complete the proof. Discounting random error is only > half of the game. The other side would involve discounting systematic > error, and, as I said, the only type of systematic error which seems > capable of explaining all of the electrochemical cell results would be the > undermeasurement of input power. Thus you would need to address that > question in a very serious way, to complete your demonstration that the CF > effect is real. --MJ}*** I agree with you, all types of error need to be examined. However, the suggested errors need to be plausible and consistent with behavior. For example, you could suggest an error based on RF energy leaking out of the cell because of oscillations created within the thin film on the electrode surfaces. This would also explain the results but you would have to imagine a very strange process, not completely unlike your proposed generation of spikes by special films. Both of these processes require a very implausible structure and behavior. > > > ***{Perhaps you are correct in your assessment of the situation, but you > must distinguish between the type of information that is necessary to > convince you, and the type which is required to convince reasonable > outsiders. To convince a reasonable outsider, you must structure your runs > in such a way that you can do numerical calculations which prove the > results are not due to chance. That's why I suggested repeated paired runs, > each involving an active cathode and a control: such a protocol lends > itself to probability calculations which any educated person can > understand, and thus is capable of generating compelling proof. As your > experiments are structured at present, I see no way that you can prove the > effect is real. --MJ}*** But if I do this, you will continue to claim that on occasions when the effect is seen, spikes occur in the voltage. Consequently, while I have gone to great trouble to show that the effect is nonrandom, you will still claim it is not anomalous, being caused by missed power. So what is the point? On the other hand, I can never "prove" to you that power has not been missed as I note below. Consequently, this discussion seems pointless. > >> >> > >> >> Have you taken any precautions along these lines? For example, how many > >> >> simultaneous samples of current and voltage does your meter take per > >> >> second? What algorithm does it use to compute power? Do you use a > >>scope to > >> >> watch your waveforms? If not, then I see no way at present to > >>discount the > >> >> systematic error hypothesis. > >> > > >> >Each data point is based on an average of 15000 data points of each of > >>the 12 > >> >variables being recorded. > >> > >> ***{I believe you are talking about the measurement of output power here. > >> My inquiry concerned the way you meter your input power. --MJ}*** > > > >A constant current power supply is attached to the cathode and anode. The > >voltage > >between the anode and cathode is measured at the cell boundary and current is > >measured by the voltage drop across a resistor. Where would you propose I > >measure > >input power? > > ***{I'm sure the locations that you are presently using are fine. The > problem is not with the locations, but with the degree to which your > methodology leaves you vulnerable to brief current spikes. The problem is > that even though you are operating in constant current mode, it is possible > for current spikes to occur that are too brief for the current control > circuit in your power supply to compensate. And, due to the inertial > dampening that is necessary to make an ammeter display readable, such > spikes will not alter the reading which they display. Thus if you have your > power supply set at 1 amp, and your ammeter reads 1 amp, and such a > transient flashes by, it will not affect the meter, which will still > register 1 amp. Moreover, the frequency of such spikes can rise to fairly > high levels without affecting the displayed value, depending on the > internal workings of the particular ammeter. Why is this so? Because you > are using a DC scale setting to measure what, in effect, is an alternating > current. That means you are operating the ammeter outside of its intended > specs, and the frequent result of such operation is an undermeasurement of > input current. Result: when you multiply that undermeasured current value > by the various voltage readings which you also measured, the result is an > average which is too low, and an input power calculation that is too low. > That's why Don Lancaster recommended taking 15,000 simultaneous > measurements of current and voltage per second, digitally multiplying them > together, and then averaging, summing, and scaling, using either a PIC or a > PC. When you take 15,000 samples a second, the current spikes will have to > be very brief indeed, in order to be missed. However, since even that is > possible, he also recommends monitoring the waveforms with a fast scope, to > be sure very fast spikes, oddball duty cycles, etc., are not screwing > things up. --MJ}*** First of all, I am not using an ammeter. The DA system is sensitive from DC to about 100 k/c and the data are take at about 1100 points/sec. More details follow below. > > >> I have examined many materials of different sizes and > >> >treatments and the effect seems to be related to the ability to achieve a > >> >critical > >> >deuterium activity on the surface and not on any electrical problem. > >> > >> ***{The surface characteristics of the cathode would determine its tendency > >> to produce current spikes under given electrolysis conditions. Hence any > >> time you think you have detected a dependence of "excess heat" on specific > >> electrolysis conditions, there is a possibility that what you are really > >> detecting is a tendency of the cathode to generate current spikes under > >> those conditions. The only way you could rationally decide in favor of the > >> "excess heat" explanation would be to measure your input power so very > >> carefully that you were sure you weren't dealing with "sparking, funny duty > >> cycles," etc--as Don Lancaster said. --MJ}*** > > > >I have never seen significant current or voltage spikes when running > >electrolytic > >cells. > > ***{Your current spikes were "not seen" by what means? By eyeballing an > ammeter set to a DC scale? For the reasons given above, that won't work. > You need a fast scope to answer such questions. Do you have one? Precisely > what instruments are you using to measure current and voltage, and by what > instruments and procedures do you calculate input power? --MJ}*** Give me a break. I'm not so stupid to use a ammeter for the reasons you state. While at LANL, we did look at the voltage with a fast scope and could see no evidence for voltage or current spikes of any significant magnitude. As I told you previously, the maximum hash on the voltage was about 50 mV. In addition, the current and voltage are stable to a few mA and mV. Your proposed spikes would have to be very uniform in their behavior yet slowly go away when conditions changed. This, I hope you will admit, is a very odd behavior to occur in a very inhomogeneous film subjected to nonuniform bubble action. The voltage signals are measured using a National Instruments NB-MIO-16 DA board attached to a AMUX multiplexer. A MacIIfx running LabView is used to take the data. All data are taken under computer control. > > >> Again, I > >> >would ask you why such an error in voltage measurement would change only > >> >after the > >> >current was increased to 1.5 A? Not only change, but change slowly and > >> >smoothly. > >> > >> ***{Actually, the spikes could be current spikes or voltage spikes. The > >> fact that you are running in constant current mode would not preclude > >> current spikes, if the spikes were faster than the current control circuit > >> in your power supply could compensate for. As for why an error in power > >> measurement would drop off disappear at a current setting of 1.5 amps, a > >> possible cause would be that such a current setting is higher than the > >> "sweet spot" at which spikes are most likely to slip through your meter > >> without being measured. As to why the drop off is gradual rather than > >> sudden, my guess would be that the higher current began to remove something > >> from the surface of the cathode which had contributed to the spiking, > >> resulting in a gradual trailing off of the spike frequency. Your belief, of > >> course, is that 1.5 amps is higher than the sweet spot at which your > >> cathode produces "excess heat. However, the only way to be sure the latter > >> explanation is correct rather than the former is to get serious about your > >> input power measurements. To do that, you would need a sophisticated power > >> measuring setup of the sort described in the Don Lancaster quote that I > >> sent you. Without such safeguards, there would be no way for you to know > >> whether you had undermeasured your input power and falsely concluded that > >> you were "over unity." That's why I asked you explicitly what you had done > >> to deal with such problems. And, since you did not answer, I assume the > >> answer is that you, like most OU researchers, have merely purchased > >> off-the-shelf power meters and have assumed that they can be trusted. > >> Unfortunately, when spikes are present, they can't. --MJ}*** > > > >So you are saying that small changes in the cathode surface, changes that are > >sensitive to a critical current, can produce a form of spikes in the > >voltage which > >not only are missed by the DA systems but which change in a smooth and regular > >way. In addition, this special condition which exists on the surface is very > >rare. When it does exist, it can produce errors which look like many watts of > >EP. Because of this imagined possibility, you want me to purchase expensive > >equipment and undertake a study of voltage fluctuations. > > ***{One "imagined possibility" is that a special condition of the cathode, > in the appropriate electrochemical environment, gives rise to "excess > heat." Another imagined possibility is that a special condition of the > cathode, given vulnerable measuring instruments and the appropriate > electrochemical environment, gives rise to spikes which cause an > undermeasurement of input power. The first imagined possibility flies in > the face of much that is currently known about physics. The second is > totally mundane, and flies in the face of no physics at all. Moreover, the > second possibility explains the replication difficulties which CF > proponents have experienced, since it would require them to not merely > reproduce the cell conditions of the prior "excess heat" experiment, but > also to use the same instruments to measure input power, in order to > successfully replicate the effect. Hence I consider it eminently reasonable > that, if you want to demonstrate the former possibility, you should perform > the steps that are necessary to discount the latter one. --MJ}*** First of all, the claimed anomalous heat does not fly in the face of what is known about physics. The effect in this case might be anomalous, hence important, for reason other than there being a nuclear reaction. On the other hand, if the energy has a nuclear origin, many explanations have been proposed which are completely consistent with physics as we presently know it. Your statement is only true if you choose to reject a growing body of theory and insist the effect has to follow models which were obtained from plasma studies. Why not open your mind to the possibility that the effect can be explained without violating anything you hold dear and see what happens? I have a scope and at some point I will examine the voltage. However, I have no illusions that such an examination will satisfy you. You will want to know the detailed characteristics of the scope and will propose that the spikes are too short for me to see regardless of the speed I quote. > > > Of course, if I fail to > >observe such fluctuations, the blame can always be attributed to the > >limitations > >of the equipment used, much like the problem Scott is having. If you were > >doing > >this kind of work, would you go this route? > > ***{Of course I would, if I were attempting to assemble evidence that would > convince reasonable people--including myself--that the CF effect is real. > After all, how can you possibly distinguish between the two above listed > hypotheses, if you do not purchase the equipment you need in order to do > so? --MJ}*** People doing experiments of any kind look for trouble only when the suggested effects look to reasonable people to be likely and important. Otherwise, a person would never make any progress. Clever people can always imagine many explanations for any observation. The issue here is not to shoot down your particular favorite explanation, but to find material which will produce the effect on demand. That is my goal. If I am successful, not only will your explanation be shot down, but we can start to discover what is actually causing the anomalous heat. > >> ***{If there was no bubble formation, then how do you account for the > >> failure of the inside temperatures to track total power? I recall you > >> mentioned changes in the thermal conductivity of the cell wall, but have no > >> idea *how* you think such changes might come about. (I thought I had two > >> specific factors that would lead to non-correlation between the cell > >> temperature and total power, but then I shot down one of them, and now you > >> seem to have shot down the other. Thus Scott's argument is suddenly looking > >> more plausible to me.) --MJ}*** > > ***{If cell temperature failed to track small changes in power over > intervals of a few seconds or minutes, the above explanation would be > reasonable, because there would be a brief delay while heat that had been > absorbed into the anode was communicated to the surrounding solution. > However, since the interval studied by Scott was 16 hours, I should think > that would provide plenty of time for the heat to pass from cathode to > anode and, thence, into the surrounding electrolyte. There is simply *no > way* total power can decline for close to 16 hours while cell temperature > rises, as a result of the effect that you propose. --MJ}*** You misunderstand the process. The heat generated at the cathode not only heats the solution but also leaves the solution through the wall. The internal thermistor samples only a small proportion of a thermally inhomogeneous fluid. If the heat being produced at the cathode misses the top and bottom thermistor on its way to the wall, time is not an important variable. The cell could operate forever and the heat would still fail to register on the internal detectors. However, because it has passed through the wall, it will register in the cooling water. I can easily image a column of heated water rising out of the anode-cathode structure, moving along the top surface and down along the wall. The top detector would not see the temperature of this water until it had lost some energy to the wall. The bottom detector would see a lower temperature as is observed. Depending on the flow pattern, more or less energy could be missed. The stirrer would complicate the flow patterns at the bottom detector. I might add, that the stirrer has no effect on either the flow-type or the isoperibolic-type calibration constants. Apparently, convection dominates as the main carrier of energy at the stirring rates used. > > > > > >The thermal conductivity of the cell wall is being influenced by a layer > >which is > >clearly visible on the jacket-side surface. This layer, I propose, can > >change due > >to bacteria action or simple chemical reaction with the water. Until > >steps are > >taken to remove this layer or use a different calorimeter, all this is only > >speculation. > > ***{Is this layer evenly distributed over the outer cell surface, or does > it appear thicker near the cold water inlet and thinner near the hot water > inlet? If the latter, then it will be thicker over the inlet thermister > than over the outlet thermister, and could give rise to a false reading of > excess heat. --MJ}*** The layer appears uniform. The thermistors are well immersed in the fluid and are glass covered. In addition, loss up the very fine wires would be small, hence any thermal gradient would also be small. In any case, these effects would also occur during calibration and cancel out. You need to find an effect which can change when the sample is subjected to certain conditions. > > > >The fact that it is possible to imagine all kinds of processes does not > >mean they > >actually occur and it does not mean that the basic data are wrong. The final > >judgment must rest on the patterns observed in the experimental data. For the > >proposed processes to be real, they must be consistent with all of the > >experimental observations, not just one. You can not pick and choose as a > >way to > >reject the data any more than I should pick and choose in an effort to > >support the > >claims. The entire package of explanations needs to be internally > >consistent with > >the data. You are a long way from such consistency. > > ***{Um, I think this hypothesis (i.e., that a special condition of the > cathode, given vulnerable instrumentation and the appropriate > electrochemical environment, gives rise to spikes which cause an > undermeasurement of input power) applies to *all* of the claimed OU > electrochemical results. Further, with minor tweaking it also applies to > the rotating drum OU results (e.g., the Griggs "Hydrosonic Pump"). Indeed, > it applies to all of the CF related experiments that attempt to measure > electrical input power (rather than some presumably correlated parameter > such as excess helium), as far as I am aware. That's pretty consistent, if > you ask me. --MJ}*** So you propose that spikes generated by unique samples of palladium and other metals produce error in all measurements even though many different types of DA systems were used. In addition, you would propose that EP levels as high as 50 watts in the case of the P-F effect and as high as kilowatts in the case of the Griggs effect are all caused by the same unique spikes in the power reading. Of course, you have a problem to explain the heat after death reported by P-F when no current was applied, but I expect you will find another explanation of this. Frankly, Mitchell, I disappointed. You appear to be fixed on this explanation at the exclusion of common sense. In addition, you have not explained why I do not see this effect in the isoperibolic data which shares the applied power and any misreading thereof. While missing some energy because of temperature gradients is plausible, I do not see how the technique could miss seeing a change in the applied energy. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 21:32:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04279; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:31:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:31:35 -0800 Message-ID: <20000203053133.24613.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:31:33 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"jKDcd1.0.l21.sAHcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote [snip] > However, I have many studies of > inactive samples, as you might expect. As for changing the samples and > seeing > changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using > inert > Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition > and > flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > > 0.0704 W/deg-flow > 0.0725 > 0.0712 > 0.0721 > 0.0709 > 0.0712 [snip] > When I have finished the present run in the > other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. > A > Seebeck calorimeter is on order and will be used to examine the active Pt > when > it arrives. Hopefully, the sample will turn on again. Ed, I think it is unwise to rely on calibration by electrolysis alone. I always included a resistor, suitably waterproofed by shrink wrap, immersed in my electrolyte to check my calorimeter (water flow type). My biggest source of drift and error was slow variations of the external temperature---mine was not nearly as stable as yours. Anyway, I don't think this would create an apparent excess heat result that would correlate with applied electrical power, as your signal does. I DID have a problem once, when noise from a noisy power supply got picked up by my thermocouple amplifiers. In this case, the tipoff was TOO CLOSE a correlation between EP and input power! Another source false calorimeter reading in my case was insufficient mixing of the water before the exit temperature measurement point. Once I identified the problem, I learned how to do good mixing in a short length of exit tube. Overall, my experience with water flow calorimetry was good. I would use it again, if I do new experiments. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 21:58:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA09259; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:50:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:50:26 -0800 Message-ID: <20000203055024.16174.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:50:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"_lIFu2.0.WG2.YSHcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > See?!? See, Scott? What did I tell you! Professional lab equipment wins the > day. Ed gave me a shopping list for this calorimeter, and he says that baby > costs $2,290. You do great stuff with cheap, clever instruments, but you > cannot beat a two-grand Neslab gadget. That was my point the other day, > which I think you took amiss and got all huffy about. Jed, I think you should lay off Scott on this point. I would rather buy a calorimeter from him than a professional one. Oh, yes. My problem of noise from a power supply that got into my thermocouple circuits and gave false excess power readings...that was a very expensive power supply from a big name manufacturer of electronic equipment. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 05:23:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA10557; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 05:22:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 05:22:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:21:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YUaYa1.0.ta2.H4Ocu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >>Ironic?!? That's not ironic, it's preposterous. Go to any ICCF conference >>and you will meet 300 people who are focused on instruments. > >***{You said it, not I. Here are your exact words, to Scott, taken from the >material which you snipped, and to which I was merely responding: > >"In my opinion, what you are doing cannot lead to a solution to the CF >problem, and it is unlikely to >lead to a successful replication by you in your lab, because you are >concentrating mainly on the instruments instead of the cathodes." > >Since you evidently cannot remember contextual remarks that you have >snipped, even when they were statements made by you, I would suggest that >in the future you snip less before writing a reply. Hey, I didn't say I approve of it. I am saying many CF scientists focus on the instruments instead of the real problem, which is materials. The NHE spent five years staring at their instruments instead of learning how to do the experiment. However, all this concern about instruments means there is no possibility that all positive CF experiments are caused by power spikes or some other artifact. >When I said, above, that indifference to and ignorance of the way their >instruments work may be the necessary precondition which enables CF >researchers to get OU results, I was referring to the instruments which are >used to measure input power. The point is that I have seen no detailed >discussion, in any of the studies I have read, of the possibility that >spikes in the current flow might lead to undermeasurement of input power . . . That's out of the question. CF works with zero input in gas loaded systems and heat after death. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 06:16:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23110; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:15:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:15:22 -0800 Message-ID: <38998DDE.F0B49E98 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:17:06 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <20000203053133.24613.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TDQnr.0.0f5.wrOcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael, I trust you read the paper I placed on the Web and notice that I also calibrated using a heater. In my case, the resistor is exposed Pt wire which makes excellent thermal contact. As I demonstrated, no significant difference is found between these two methods. My calorimeter is contained in a constant temperature box so I have no trouble with this problem. As for flow mixing, I compared flow rates of 22 g/min and 45 g/min and found no difference. This indicates that good mixing is achieved. Thanks for your comments, Ed Michael Schaffer wrote: > Ed Storms wrote > [snip] > > However, I have many studies of > > inactive samples, as you might expect. As for changing the samples and > > seeing > > changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using > > inert > > Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition > > and > > flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > > > > 0.0704 W/deg-flow > > 0.0725 > > 0.0712 > > 0.0721 > > 0.0709 > > 0.0712 > [snip] > > When I have finished the present run in the > > other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. > > A > > Seebeck calorimeter is on order and will be used to examine the active Pt > > when > > it arrives. Hopefully, the sample will turn on again. > > Ed, I think it is unwise to rely on calibration by electrolysis alone. I > always included a resistor, suitably waterproofed by shrink wrap, immersed in > my electrolyte to check my calorimeter (water flow type). > > My biggest source of drift and error was slow variations of the external > temperature---mine was not nearly as stable as yours. Anyway, I don't think > this would create an apparent excess heat result that would correlate with > applied electrical power, as your signal does. I DID have a problem once, > when noise from a noisy power supply got picked up by my thermocouple > amplifiers. In this case, the tipoff was TOO CLOSE a correlation between EP > and input power! > > Another source false calorimeter reading in my case was insufficient mixing > of the water before the exit temperature measurement point. Once I identified > the problem, I learned how to do good mixing in a short length of exit tube. > > Overall, my experience with water flow calorimetry was good. I would use it > again, if I do new experiments. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 06:24:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25999; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:23:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:23:18 -0800 Message-ID: <38998FBA.565461B4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:25:02 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"soxTh1.0.9M6.MzOcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, I propose to address your "spikes" idea by placing capacitors on the voltage and current measuring circuits. This would much reduce the amplitude of any spike, indeed the narrower the spike the greater the attenuation. This way I do not have to address the expected suggestion that very narrow spikes might be missed by a scope. Do you agree that this approach would solve the problem you suggest? Ed Edmund Storms wrote: > > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > >> > > >> > > >> ***{Actually, the spikes could be current spikes or voltage spikes. The > > >> fact that you are running in constant current mode would not preclude > > >> current spikes, if the spikes were faster than the current control circuit > > >> in your power supply could compensate for. As for why an error in power > > >> measurement would drop off disappear at a current setting of 1.5 amps, a > > >> possible cause would be that such a current setting is higher than the > > >> "sweet spot" at which spikes are most likely to slip through your meter > > >> without being measured. As to why the drop off is gradual rather than > > >> sudden, my guess would be that the higher current began to remove something > > >> from the surface of the cathode which had contributed to the spiking, > > >> resulting in a gradual trailing off of the spike frequency. Your belief, of > > >> course, is that 1.5 amps is higher than the sweet spot at which your > > >> cathode produces "excess heat. However, the only way to be sure the latter > > >> explanation is correct rather than the former is to get serious about your > > >> input power measurements. To do that, you would need a sophisticated power > > >> measuring setup of the sort described in the Don Lancaster quote that I > > >> sent you. Without such safeguards, there would be no way for you to know > > >> whether you had undermeasured your input power and falsely concluded that > > >> you were "over unity." That's why I asked you explicitly what you had done > > >> to deal with such problems. And, since you did not answer, I assume the > > >> answer is that you, like most OU researchers, have merely purchased > > >> off-the-shelf power meters and have assumed that they can be trusted. > > >> Unfortunately, when spikes are present, they can't. --MJ}*** > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 06:27:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27418; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:26:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:26:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203092555.0079c400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:25:55 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <38998DDE.F0B49E98 ix.netcom.com> References: <20000203053133.24613.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TUMMU1.0.Gi6.N0Pcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >As for flow mixing, I compared flow rates of 22 g/min and 45 >g/min and found no difference. This indicates that good mixing is achieved. On the outlet side, the flow goes from the spacious envelope and squeezes into the tube. The speed of the flow changes. That should mix it, with the Venturi effect. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 06:46:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA03369; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:45:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:45:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:42:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control Resent-Message-ID: <"gZD7v1.0.Zq.qHPcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>>Ironic?!? That's not ironic, it's preposterous. Go to any ICCF conference >>>and you will meet 300 people who are focused on instruments. >> >>***{You said it, not I. Here are your exact words, to Scott, taken from the >>material which you snipped, and to which I was merely responding: >> >>"In my opinion, what you are doing cannot lead to a solution to the CF >>problem, and it is unlikely to >>lead to a successful replication by you in your lab, because you are >>concentrating mainly on the instruments instead of the cathodes." >> >>Since you evidently cannot remember contextual remarks that you have >>snipped, even when they were statements made by you, I would suggest that >>in the future you snip less before writing a reply. > >Hey, I didn't say I approve of it. I am saying many CF scientists focus on >the instruments instead of the real problem, which is materials. The NHE >spent five years staring at their instruments instead of learning how to do >the experiment. However, all this concern about instruments means there is >no possibility that all positive CF experiments are caused by power spikes >or some other artifact. ***{Hey, there's a great argument! You first assert that CF scientists are focused on the materials, unlike poor, dumb Scott, who is focused on the instruments, and claim that's why he can't get the effect. Then, when I suggest that the CF effect may really be an instrument effect--caused by undermeasurement of input power due to spikes--and that as a consequence Scott's focus may be the correct one, you reverse field and begin claiming that CF scientists are focused on the instruments, and, thus, that there is no possibility whatsoever that they are undermeasuring their input power! The result of these gut wrenching changes in direction is that you manage to dismiss the issue without ever addressing it, like the CF scientists you are defending. Well, fine, I can't force you, or them, to deal with this question; but until someone with an "over unity" result does so, reasonable people are going to continue to have doubts. --MJ}*** > > >>When I said, above, that indifference to and ignorance of the way their >>instruments work may be the necessary precondition which enables CF >>researchers to get OU results, I was referring to the instruments which are >>used to measure input power. The point is that I have seen no detailed >>discussion, in any of the studies I have read, of the possibility that >>spikes in the current flow might lead to undermeasurement of input power . >. . > >That's out of the question. CF works with zero input in gas loaded systems ***{The most promising gas loaded systems (i.e., those of Case and George) measure "excess helium"--helium supposedly produced by nuclear reactions within the reaction vessel--as a basis for inferring energy production. However, insufficient numbers of runs have been done with those systems to discount the random error hypothesis. Thus the possibility remains open that the supposed "excess helium" found in those cells came from inclusions within contaminant granules, or within TIG welds in the seams of the reaction vessels. --MJ}*** >and heat after death. ***{Claims of "heat after death" are undocumented, anecdotal, and highly suspect . As you yourself said concerning Mizuno's alleged 1991 "heat after death" episode: "It is a terrible shame that Mizuno did not call in a dozen other scientists to see and feel the hot cell. I would have set up a 24-hour vigil with graduate students and video cameras to observe the cell and measure the evaporated water carefully. This is one of history's heartbreaking lost opportunities. ... Unfortunately, Mizuno decided to disconnect the cell from his recording equipment and hide it in his laboratory." The question is: what's wrong with this picture? --Mitchell Jones}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 07:11:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA14977; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:09:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:09:12 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:09:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-Tw_Q.0.sf3.OePcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:42 AM 2/3/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >Thus the possibility remains open >that the supposed "excess helium" found in those cells came from inclusions >within contaminant granules, or within TIG welds in the seams of the >reaction vessels. --MJ}*** I was surprised to see you include TIG welds as a possible source of He contamination. Are you thinking that He gas is used for shielding and thus might become entrained in the weld? FYI, He gas is rarely used in modern TIG welding. Your average TIG setup...like ours...uses Ar. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 07:11:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15251; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:10:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:10:06 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38998FBA.565461B4 ix.netcom.com> References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:06:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA15223 Resent-Message-ID: <"Z9jeP.0.5k3.CfPcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell, I propose to address your "spikes" idea by placing capacitors on the >voltage and current measuring circuits. This would much reduce the >amplitude of any >spike, indeed the narrower the spike the greater the attenuation. This >way I do not >have to address the expected suggestion that very narrow spikes might be >missed by a >scope. Do you agree that this approach would solve the problem you suggest? ***{No. All capacitors are frequency sensitive. As frequency increases, the capacitor's opposition to a flow of current across its plates decreases. Result: no matter what capacitors you use in a filter, spikes that occur at rates above the critical frequencies of those capacitors are going to be shorted to ground, and will *not* be metered. Using capacitors for this purpose was extensively examined on sci.engr more than a year ago, in a discussion involving Don Lancaster. He poo-pooed the idea, for a number of reasons. Here are some relevant posts from that discussion: ****************************** Mitchell Jones wrote: I take it, then, that you agree with > Fred's suggestion about using capacitors between the meters and the load > in the electrochemical cell experiment? If so, what would be your specific > approach to that design? What types and sizes of capacitors would you > recommend for an electrochemical cell setup that was pulling .3 amps at > 168 volts and showing an apparent COP of 1.5? Rather than fancy caps, I would use modern signal processing to accurately measure the power. Taking, say, 15,000 or more identical 12-bit or higher simultaneous voltage and current line locked samples per second, digitially multiplying them together, THEN averaging and summing and scaling. I'd also watch the waveforms for funny duty cycles, sparking, and stuff that would foul up the works. Either a PIC or a PC can now easily handle accurate power measurement. Tasks that were ridiculously expensive or complex (and definitely misunderstood) a year ago. Maxim has a superb new chip for this. -- Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com ****************************** In article <358A97D6.8A1F3EFF tinaja.com>, Don Lancaster wrote: > b.h.jarvis hw.ac.uk wrote: > > > Are you saying that the people who got it wrong did not know about power > > factor, and left out the cosí ? As simple as that? > > > > > > Forgetting the cosine is only the first blundering step in making power > measurements that are so mesmerizingly awful that they are not even wrong. > > "The cosine" assumes you are dealing with clean fundamental frequency > sinewaves. If you add harmonics, nonlinearities, energy coupling, impulses, > rf, electrochemistry, non-constant loads, time variance, and (most > especially) sparking, the problem gets infinitely more complex. > > So much so that it has been virtually impossible for casual individuals to > make ANY meaningful power measurements on real world devices. Conventional > wattmeters are totally useless for this purpose. The PIC has only recently > cured this and low cost instruments that make the needed hundreds of digital > samples per half cycle and multiply them without crippling crest factor > restrictions are now becoming cheaply available. > > The key question is how much time and effort should be devoted with new > instruments proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that obviously bad labwork is > in fact obviously bad labwork. > > Tutorials on the problems and solutions involved in accurate power > measurement appear in http://www.tinaja.com/muse01.html > > A banner advertiser here also offers an exciting new instrument. > > -- > Many thanks, > > Don Lancaster > > Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com > Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com ****************************** For more information on this topic, I suggest that you contact Don. He will probably be happy to point you toward a low cost solution to this problem. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 07:11:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15543; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:10:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:10:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203100958.0079c810 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:09:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DRd3q1.0.jo3.ffPcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Hey, there's a great argument! You first assert that CF scientists are >focused on the materials, unlike poor, dumb Scott, who is focused on the >instruments . . . Not at all. I never asserted that. They SHOULD BE focused on materials, but like poor, dumb Scott most of them spend too much time fooling with the instruments instead. That's one of the reasons progress in the field is so slow. Actually, it isn't their fault, or Scott's either. As Ed Storms and I have repeatedly pointed out, when you do not have enough money you are forced to concentrate on the instruments. It is like trying to farm with 40-year-old tractors and combines. You spend all your time hammering on the machinery. You never get around to plowing and harvesting. (A friend of mine does this for a non-living.) , and claim that's why he can't get the effect. Then, when I >suggest that the CF effect may really be an instrument effect--caused by >undermeasurement of input power due to spikes--and that as a consequence >Scott's focus may be the correct one, you reverse field and begin claiming >that CF scientists are focused on the instruments . . . It cannot possibly be due to spikes! The effect occurs when there is no input power, for crying out loud. No power = no spikes. End of story. Fini. Owari. >***{The most promising gas loaded systems (i.e., those of Case and George) >measure "excess helium"--helium supposedly produced by nuclear reactions >within the reaction vessel--as a basis for inferring energy production. They measure excess heat too! That's the whole point. As McKubre explained at the ACS and in Italy, they have greatly improved the calorimetry. Thus the possibility remains open >that the supposed "excess helium" found in those cells came from inclusions >within contaminant granules, or within TIG welds in the seams of the >reaction vessels. No, that can't be. It would show up in the blank experiments. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 07:16:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18817; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:15:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:15:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203101457.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:14:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CnH_E2.0.xb4.NkPcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >Thus the possibility remains open >that the supposed "excess helium" found in those cells came from inclusions >within contaminant granules, or within TIG welds in the seams of the >reaction vessels. The reaction vessels are machined out of a single chunk of metal, with no welds, like Mizuno's cells. I don't know where anyone got the idea they are welded . . . maybe some of the earlier ones were. Some of ones Case uses are welded. Anyway, as I said, if this was true the blank experiments would show helium too, and they don't. There are lots of blank runs, and they never show helium, so this is statistically ruled out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 08:33:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13986; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:29:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:29:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000203100958.0079c810 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:26:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control Resent-Message-ID: <"UUkEn3.0.NQ3.npQcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{Hey, there's a great argument! You first assert that CF scientists are >>focused on the materials, unlike poor, dumb Scott, who is focused on the >>instruments . . . > >Not at all. I never asserted that. They SHOULD BE focused on materials, but >like poor, dumb Scott most of them spend too much time fooling with the >instruments instead. That's one of the reasons progress in the field is so >slow. ***{Jed, you are a brilliant guy, as are many CF researchers, and I don't want to be a wet blanket. But you really need to rein in your enthusiasm and try to see the other side of the picture. In particular, you need to recognize the possibility that progress in this field is slow because the "field" is a mistake, and the effect does not exist. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, mind you, only that it *may* not. We will not know for sure until the euphoria gets tempered by a healthy dose of attention to potential problems--such as the need to discount the possibility of random error by doing large numbers of runs with paired controls, and the need to employ modern signal processing techniques, rather than off-the-shelf power meters, when measuring input power. As long as you, and others, continue to brush these perfectly reasonable criticisms aside with mere waves of the hand, this field of research will continue to be stuck in a mire which, in part, is of its own making. --MJ}*** > >Actually, it isn't their fault, or Scott's either. As Ed Storms and I have >repeatedly pointed out, when you do not have enough money you are forced to >concentrate on the instruments. It is like trying to farm with 40-year-old >tractors and combines. You spend all your time hammering on the machinery. >You never get around to plowing and harvesting. (A friend of mine does this >for a non-living.) > > >, and claim that's why he can't get the effect. Then, when I >>suggest that the CF effect may really be an instrument effect--caused by >>undermeasurement of input power due to spikes--and that as a consequence >>Scott's focus may be the correct one, you reverse field and begin claiming >>that CF scientists are focused on the instruments . . . > >It cannot possibly be due to spikes! The effect occurs when there is no >input power, for crying out loud. No power = no spikes. End of story. Fini. >Owari. ***{Asserted but not proven. You are making a leap of faith when you believe Mizuno's story. I am unwilling to make that leap. That's not to say I believe he is lying, mind you. All I am saying is that I am unwilling to base a conclusion of this importance on the uncorroborated assertions of a small number of individuals. --MJ}*** > > >>***{The most promising gas loaded systems (i.e., those of Case and George) >>measure "excess helium"--helium supposedly produced by nuclear reactions >>within the reaction vessel--as a basis for inferring energy production. > >They measure excess heat too! That's the whole point. As McKubre explained >at the ACS and in Italy, they have greatly improved the calorimetry. ***{How? By calculating the nuclear energy produced in creating the "excess helium" and comparing it to the electric power input? If so, that does not address the contamination issue at all. (If the "excess helium" is really due to contamination, then the nuclear energy emitted during its production was given off millions or billions of years ago, inside some distant star, rather than inside the reaction vessel.) And if they actually place the reaction vessel, including the heater that maintains its temperature, inside a calorimeter, that opens a whole other can of worms. In that case, to determine whether their calorimetry was correct, we would have to argue about their procedures for from 6 months to a year. Hence if that is what they are doing, citing it as evidence proves exactly diddley squat about whether the CF effect is real. --MJ}*** > > > Thus the possibility remains open >>that the supposed "excess helium" found in those cells came from inclusions >>within contaminant granules, or within TIG welds in the seams of the >>reaction vessels. > >No, that can't be. It would show up in the blank experiments. ***{Based on what has been publicly revealed, insufficient numbers of runs have been done to discount the possibility that this pattern is due to chance. If, for example, the probability is .5 that a contamination granule containing a helium inclusion will find its way into a cell, and you do one experimental run and one control run, the probability of contaminant helium in the experimental cell but not the control is .25, which is far too large to constitute proof of anything. To discount such possibilities, Case and George would either have to do large numbers of paired runs and publish the results, or else examine similarly large numbers of batches of catalyst for signs of helium contamination (and also prove that helium was not used in the welds of their reaction vessels). But they have done none of those things. Hence reasonable people are reserving judgment about their claims. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 08:41:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16279; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:34:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:34:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:31:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control Resent-Message-ID: <"oLzb52.0.F-3.0uQcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 08:42 AM 2/3/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>Thus the possibility remains open >>that the supposed "excess helium" found in those cells came from inclusions >>within contaminant granules, or within TIG welds in the seams of the >>reaction vessels. --MJ}*** > >I was surprised to see you include TIG welds as a possible source of He >contamination. Are you thinking that He gas is used for shielding and thus >might become entrained in the weld? ***{Yes. --MJ}*** FYI, He gas is rarely used in modern >TIG welding. Your average TIG setup...like ours...uses Ar. ***{Some people use helium. If you want to discuss technique with them, post the above comments on sci.engr and sci.physics.fusion. (I saw a post on spf on this subject just a week or so ago.) --MJ}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 08:45:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21298; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:44:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:44:02 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000203101457.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:40:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control Resent-Message-ID: <"bZjgt.0.hC5.H1Rcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>Thus the possibility remains open >>that the supposed "excess helium" found in those cells came from inclusions >>within contaminant granules, or within TIG welds in the seams of the >>reaction vessels. > >The reaction vessels are machined out of a single chunk of metal, with no >welds, like Mizuno's cells. ***{According to what I have read, they are made out of seamless stainless steel tubing. Based on the photos that used to be on the George website, they had standard female type screw-on pressure caps, and flat metal bottoms. Question: how do you attach a piece of flat, circular stainless steel to the bottom of a piece of stainless steel tubing without welding? --MJ}*** I don't know where anyone got the idea they are >welded . . . maybe some of the earlier ones were. Some of ones Case uses >are welded. > >Anyway, as I said, if this was true the blank experiments would show helium >too, and they don't. There are lots of blank runs, and they never show >helium, so this is statistically ruled out. ***{Good, now we are getting somewhere! All you have to do is cite a source where I can obtain the actual numbers and verify the calculations myself, and I will then consign the contamination theory to the garbage can. However, for the record, I'll not be holding my breath while I'm waiting. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 09:20:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03229; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:18:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:18:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000203111902.010d1e68 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:19:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Storm's Pt: inlet temperatures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HTZAY2.0.No.jXRcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While Ed has been trying to stay afloat in the WHF (Wild Hypothesis Flood), I have been continuing my study of Ed's spreadsheet data. Frankly, the data looks pretty good, which is not surprising considering the source. However, I have observed some odd behavior in the flow calorimeter inlet temperatures during the current sweeps. Take a look at: http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/inlet.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 09:21:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04037; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:19:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:19:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203115445.0079eba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:54:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000203100958.0079c810 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AayGH.0.u-.PYRcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >>It cannot possibly be due to spikes! The effect occurs when there is no >>input power, for crying out loud. No power = no spikes. End of story. Fini. >>Owari. > >***{Asserted but not proven. You are making a leap of faith when you >believe Mizuno's story. I am unwilling to make that leap. That's not to say >I believe he is lying, mind you. All I am saying is that I am unwilling to >base a conclusion of this importance on the uncorroborated assertions of a >small number of individuals. Say what?!? Heat after death has been reported in the peer reviewed literature by many researchers including P&F and McKubre (and Storm, I think). It was observed at CETI and in the independent tests of the CETI device at Motorola. ALL gas loading and ion beam loading CF experiments that produce heat or other nuclear effects are always in heat-after-death mode, by definition. This is not "uncorraborated assertions" or a "leap of faith" it is one of the most carefully established and important facts about the CF effect. If you are "unwilling to base a conclusion" on this kind of rock solid, widely replicated evidence, you are wasting your time reading this forum or any paper or comments about CF. What next? Are you going to assert that the loading versus excess power curves for Pd-D CF are a "leap of faith"? Good grief! How much evidence does it take to convince you of a simple fact? Question: have you ever actually *read* any of the papers describing heat-after-death, gas loading, ion beams . . . or do you get all of your information from Vortex and the s.p.f. rumor mill? >>They measure excess heat too! That's the whole point. As McKubre explained >>at the ACS and in Italy, they have greatly improved the calorimetry. > >***{How? By calculating the nuclear energy produced in creating the "excess >helium" and comparing it to the electric power input? Of course not! By temperature, calibrations, a model, etc. That's called "calorimetry." First they measure the nuclear heat, THEN they compare it to the helium. How else could they do it?!? >***{Based on what has been publicly revealed, insufficient numbers of runs . . . Publicly revealed where, by who? Were you at the ACS or Asti? I don't know how many runs would satisfy you, but I suppose an ordinary human being would find the number of runs and the correlation overwhelmingly convincing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 09:21:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04033; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:19:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:19:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203121843.0079cdc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:18:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pWeL33.0.m-.OYRcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Some people use helium. If you want to discuss technique with them, >post the above comments on sci.engr and sci.physics.fusion. (I saw a post >on spf on this subject just a week or so ago.) --MJ}*** Say, why not get the information about the SRI experiments from the National Enquirer instead? Or go fishing in a sewer? Let's go downtown and interview a gang of winos about helium contamination. They will be at least as well informed and coherent as the fruitcakes on s.p.f. Or you could try Ouija board, or one of those Magic Eight Ball things: "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later" "You May Rely On It" Get real, Mitchell! For goodness sake, get real. If you want to know about the containers at SRI, FIND OUT: READ THE LITERATURE READ ORIGINAL SOURCES WATCH THE ACS TAPE READ THE ASTI PAPER ASK MIKE MCKUBRE DIRECTLY There are so many ways to get solid facts and reliable information, why waste time? Don't flounder around. Stop speculating about non-existent welds, and reading hallucinatory ravings on s.p.f. I am looking at a picture of the SRI Case cells, and I don't see any welds. Okay? Maybe I am wrong about that. Hey, if it really matter to you, and you don't believe in control experiments, ask McKubre or call the guy who fabricated the containers. Get the facts from original sources. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 09:25:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02161; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:23:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:23:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3899B9E8.27D006AF ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:25:11 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UOFHb.0.gX.6cRcu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me explain the approach in more detail. The problem is to measure the magnitude of the spikes. This can be done by taking points very frequently, which I have done. Apparently, this approach is not satisfactory to you. The other method would involve storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where their average energy can be measured as a voltage. The spikes are equivalent to pulsed DC which have a total energy defined by their magnitude and time duration. The problem is to lengthen the time duration, so that they can be measured. This can be done by storing the energy of the spike in a capacitor across the measuring circuit. This does not act as a filter in the usual sense. Granted, the capacitor looks like a low resistance load to the spike. However, this is because the capacitor is storing the charge within the spike and in the process acquiring a small DC voltage, which can be measured. Granted, some of the energy of the spike will be lost in the resistance of the wiring so that an exact measure of spike energy could be not obtained. However, if a significant voltage increase is observed by placing such a capacitor in the circuit, evidence for important spiking would be obvious. Of course, the reverse would also be true. I have to ask, "what process would produce such voltage spikes"? This can only happen if the resistance of the electrolytic circuit suddenly changes. Small changes are caused by bubble action. However, these variations are small and of relative low frequency. How could spikes be made of intense magnitude and of such short duration to be missed by the DA circuit? A process which changes the resistance by a large amount would be needed. Some basic limitations exist. The resistance of the supply circuit is about 0.2 ohm (mainly caused by the resistance used to measure the current) and the resistance of the electrolytic cell is about 7 ohm. No action at the cathode surface can reduce the cell resistance below that of the electrolyte which, as I said, is about 7 ohm. Consequently, spikes only can be produced by the resistance suddenly increasing. At constant current, this would cause the voltage to suddenly rise. However, the power supply has a limit as to how fast this rise can be and how fast the initial value is returned when the resistance returns to normal. The rise and fall times for my power supply are about 25 microsec for 90% return to normal with a frequency response of 13 kHz. This limitation fixes the pulse width and the repetition rate. Unfortunately, for your explanation, a higher cell resistance will immediately result in lower power being deposited within the cell because of the lag between the resistance change and the response of the power supply. If the resistance stays high long enough for the power supply to respond, the higher voltage would be seen by the measuring circuit. If the resistance quickly returned to normal, before the power supply had a chance to respond and the before the DA could see a change, the effect would be a net loss from the cell, a loss which would not be reflected in the DA measurement. Consequently, the process should produce an apparent negative heat, depending on how long the resistance remained high. Does this make sense to you? Ed Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Mitchell, I propose to address your "spikes" idea by placing capacitors on the > >voltage and current measuring circuits. This would much reduce the > >amplitude of any > >spike, indeed the narrower the spike the greater the attenuation. This > >way I do not > >have to address the expected suggestion that very narrow spikes might be > >missed by a > >scope. Do you agree that this approach would solve the problem you suggest? > > ***{No. All capacitors are frequency sensitive. As frequency increases, the > capacitor's opposition to a flow of current across its plates decreases. > Result: no matter what capacitors you use in a filter, spikes that occur at > rates above the critical frequencies of those capacitors are going to be > shorted to ground, and will *not* be metered. Using capacitors for this > purpose was extensively examined on sci.engr more than a year ago, in a > discussion involving Don Lancaster. He poo-pooed the idea, for a number of > reasons. Here are some relevant posts from that discussion: > > ****************************** > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > I take it, then, that you agree with > > Fred's suggestion about using capacitors between the meters and the load > > in the electrochemical cell experiment? If so, what would be your specific > > approach to that design? What types and sizes of capacitors would you > > recommend for an electrochemical cell setup that was pulling .3 amps at > > 168 volts and showing an apparent COP of 1.5? > > Rather than fancy caps, I would use modern signal processing to accurately > measure > the power. Taking, say, 15,000 or more identical 12-bit or higher simultaneous > voltage and current line locked samples per second, digitially multiplying them > together, THEN averaging and summing and scaling. I'd also watch the > waveforms for > funny duty cycles, sparking, and stuff that would foul up the works. > > Either a PIC or a PC can now easily handle accurate power measurement. > Tasks that > were ridiculously expensive or complex (and definitely misunderstood) a > year ago. > Maxim has a superb new chip for this. > -- > Many thanks, > > Don Lancaster > > Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com > Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com > ****************************** > In article <358A97D6.8A1F3EFF tinaja.com>, Don Lancaster > wrote: > > > b.h.jarvis hw.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > Are you saying that the people who got it wrong did not know about power > > > factor, and left out the cosí ? As simple as that? > > > > > > > > > > Forgetting the cosine is only the first blundering step in making power > > measurements that are so mesmerizingly awful that they are not even wrong. > > > > "The cosine" assumes you are dealing with clean fundamental frequency > > sinewaves. If you add harmonics, nonlinearities, energy coupling, impulses, > > rf, electrochemistry, non-constant loads, time variance, and (most > > especially) sparking, the problem gets infinitely more complex. > > > > So much so that it has been virtually impossible for casual individuals to > > make ANY meaningful power measurements on real world devices. Conventional > > wattmeters are totally useless for this purpose. The PIC has only recently > > cured this and low cost instruments that make the needed hundreds of digital > > samples per half cycle and multiply them without crippling crest factor > > restrictions are now becoming cheaply available. > > > > The key question is how much time and effort should be devoted with new > > instruments proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that obviously bad labwork is > > in fact obviously bad labwork. > > > > Tutorials on the problems and solutions involved in accurate power > > measurement appear in http://www.tinaja.com/muse01.html > > > > A banner advertiser here also offers an exciting new instrument. > > > > -- > > Many thanks, > > > > Don Lancaster > > > > Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > > Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com > > Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com > ****************************** > > For more information on this topic, I suggest that you contact Don. He will > probably be happy to point you toward a low cost solution to this problem. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 09:33:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12313; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:31:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:31:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:30:55 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Letter to Hal Puthoff Resent-Message-ID: <"coNCP.0.A03.MjRcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians; I wrote the following email to Hal Puthoff. if any of you have insights into these problems, please respond. Dear Hal; Well I read your patent, 5,845,220. It's not what I was hoping for, which was a new type of wave form. Not that I'm complaining you understand, after 20+ years of reading about scalar waves. I can now point to a method of both generating and detecting them. There is a type of wave form I've been wondering about, the electrodynamic equivalent of the Raleigh wave. I was hoping that 5,845,220 might address something like that. Do you know anything about it? I want to call your attention to the GIF at http://www.svpvril.com/updates.html , three spheres rotating around a common neutral center in two and three dimentions. My 16 year old nephew Justin just moved from being a junior in high school to being a freshman at Mankato State University. He is planning on getting a EE. I told him about you and your patent and about Maxwell's book being written in quaternions. I want to get your opinion on insights that he might gain into the nature of electrodynamics by studying quaternion mathematics. Frank says that as far as he knows, quaternions have been succeeded by vector analysis. Recently someone posted this URL on Vortex-L, I want to call it to your attention in case Scott didn't mention it to you http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html . It caused quite a stir. I mentioned this to Frank, who told me that he believes that space, energy and matter are all quantized. He also believes that Time is not a dimension, it is a progression. Otto used to chuckle about Frank's inability to prove any of Reciprocitie's claims, I just wish could show him these photos. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 09:52:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20104; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:50:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:50:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3899C030.97945EA9 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:52:01 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storm's Pt: inlet temperatures References: <3.0.1.32.20000203111902.010d1e68 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DqoV5.0.2w4.E_Rcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These small changes in the input Jacket temperature are interesting and I'm still trying to find the reason. However, they do not affect measurement of EP. The actual input temperature is not important because only the delta T is used to calculate EP. As long as the input temperature has remained constant long enough for the calorimeter to reach steady-state, these small changes in input do not matter. The data given in the table are taken after steady-state has been achieved. The short term variation in the input temperature is +-0.02°, but this only produces scatter in the data, not a net change. Ed Scott Little wrote: > While Ed has been trying to stay afloat in the WHF (Wild Hypothesis Flood), > I have been continuing my study of Ed's spreadsheet data. Frankly, the > data looks pretty good, which is not surprising considering the source. > > However, I have observed some odd behavior in the flow calorimeter inlet > temperatures during the current sweeps. Take a look at: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/storms/inlet.html > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 10:26:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04512; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:23:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:23:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000203121843.0079cdc0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES Resent-Message-ID: <"HkCEr1.0.Q61.tUScu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{Some people use helium. If you want to discuss technique with them, >>post the above comments on sci.engr and sci.physics.fusion. (I saw a post >>on spf on this subject just a week or so ago.) --MJ}*** > >Say, why not get the information about the SRI experiments from the >National Enquirer instead? Or go fishing in a sewer? Let's go downtown and >interview a gang of winos about helium contamination. They will be at least >as well informed and coherent as the fruitcakes on s.p.f. Or you could try >Ouija board, or one of those Magic Eight Ball things: "Answer Unclear, Ask >Again Later" "You May Rely On It" ***{More generalized yapping, devoid of substance, and typical of you. Fortunately, I saved the posts, and so I will let them speak for themselves. The two most pertinent ones, surrounded by lines of asterisks, are included below: ******************************************** Steve Lajoie wrote: > > Scott Lurndal wrote: [snip] > > I also believe that you haven't applied occam's razor to > > your interpretation of various aforementioned results - specifically > > your contention that He4/T, which, in some experiments, > > are products of nuclear reactions, automatically imply a nuclear > > reaction has taken place. > > Okay, tell me a chemical way of making Helium-4 and > tritium out of deuterium, and then we'll discuss Occam's > razor. > > The whole point of George's He-4 experiment was that IF > it was a leak, the leak violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. > AND it mysteriously follows around ONLY experimental cells > and not the control cells. Tell me, Steve, how were the cells constructed? Physical details, materials, and construction techniques are important. Do you know what TIG welding is? For those of you who don't, TIG stands for 'Tungsten Inert Gas', and it is the method used in almost all laboratory equipment. It is commonly used because it is a very clean procedure, it produces strong, pretty welds, and compared to other welding methods it has a lower rate of defects and leaks. Not that defects don't happen - and it should be noted that this method can easily trap volumes of gas beneath the weld itself. Why is this important, Steve? Because this procedure uses inert gas. Specifically, noble gases. More specifically, argon, helium, and helium/argon mixtures. ---------------------------------------- Consider the following scenario: a single pocket of helium/argon is trapped beneath one of these welds in George's cell. Also consider that the weld has passed leak tests with flying colors. So far, no problems. We have a trapped pocket of helium, but since the container passed leak tests, it shouldn't matter, right? Well, that depends entirely on the sensitivity of your experiment. You see, helium atoms are small enough and light enough that they can diffuse through most metals - specifically stainless steel, which George's vessels are made of. The atoms do this slowly, but it does occur and it can be measured if your equipment is sensitive enough. This is what is called a 'virtual leak'. And given the slow rate of diffusion, the leak can have a lifetime of years, centuries, or longer. (It should also be noted that these kinds of leaks can occur _against_ even large pressure differentials because while the helium is free to move through the metal, other molecules might not be. Helium would flow out of the leak as long as the partial pressure of the helium is higher in the trapped gas than it is outside. This does not cause problems with thermodynamics, however. See osmotic pressure for details about similar processes.) So, at this point, we have established that 1) pockets of inert gas can be trapped in the welds of the containers, and 2) that any helium in the trapped gasses will slowly diffuse through the metal and 'leak' out. Do you agree with this? Now, lets do some numbers, using data from George's web site. The size of the vessel was 50 cc, and over the course of a month the helium level in the vessel rose from approximately 0 ppm to approximately 11 ppm. 50cc * 11 ppm He4 = 5.5e-4 cc He4. Correcting this number to 1 atmosphere yields 1.87e-3 cc He4. Next, let us assume, purely for the sake of argument, that the vessel has a single pocket of gas trapped in a weld by the welding process. Further, let us say that the volume of trapped gas is about 1 mm on a side, for a total volume of 1e-3 cc; From my own experience, this is an average sized inclusion. ----------------------------------------- The importance of the above should now be obvious - a single inclusion in an otherwise perfect weld can account for over half of the observed helium. Two such inclusions can account for all of it. And containers of this size could have anywhere from zero to several such inclusions, depending on the skill of the welder and the exact construction techniques. This is the primary reason I question the validity of the helium claims. Here is an entirely plausible source of helium that is easily capable of explaining the reported results. Also, this source of helium was not addressed (or even considered) by the experimenters. Do you believe this is a possible source of systematic error in George's helium measurements? If not, why not? -dennis towne ******************************************** Steve Lajoie wrote: > > Steve Lajoie wrote: > > > > dennis towne wrote: > [snip] > > > > Do you believe this is a possible source of systematic error in George's > > > helium measurements? If not, why not? > > I forgot to answer, but I gave the reasons for my answer. Can > you believe that? > > I don't see this as a possible source of error. > > Here is why: [snip, I addressed these in a post just a minute ago] > P.S. > > 5) The leak would have evacuated when the cell was > pumped out, not waited a few days after it was > pressurized to 3 atm. No - this is patently false. This leak would have proceeded at roughly the same rate whether the vessel was evacuated or not. And the thing that makes these kinds of leaks so annoying is that they continue to outgas even in hard vacuum for extended periods of time (and I do mean extended: anywhere from months to years/millenia, depending on exact materials and construction techniques.) Remember, we are talking about a leak that could outgas anywhere from .01% to 50% of its total volume in pure vacuum per month, dependent on construction. Evacuating the chamber does _not_ help the problem. (As a side note, since the stainless steel is pretty much permeable only to helium around room temperature, the only thing governing rate of flow is the pressure differential of the _helium_. In other words, the pressure in the trapped bubble could be 1 psi while the outside pressure could be ten thousand, and the helium could still be able to flow against the gradient. Of course, this could only happen if the partial pressure of the helium outside the bubble were less than 1 psi.) (This is very similar to osmotic pressure and osmotic processes. If this looks strange to you, you might want to check out osmosis and semi-permeable barriers in your physics references.) > > Personally, I think these problem with this virutal > leak theory are rather obvious,and I'm a bit amazed > that the virtual leak via TIG/MIG welding theory is > still being dragged out and touted as credible. Having worked with stainless steel and TIG welding for a number of years, I find it very credible. I won't say that this is what is happening, but this is certainly a valid candidate for a systematic error that can explain all the helium production numbers. -dennis towne ******************************************** Steve Lajoie wrote: > > dennis towne wrote: > > > > Steve Lajoie wrote: [snip] > > > 1) You are assuming that the device was welded by TIG or MIG. > > > > And you are assuming it was not! > > Not true. I said it MAY not have been. I am pointing out > that it is the assumption that it was, and then telling you > why it makes no difference AT ALL because even if the assumption > is ACCEPTED, the data doesn't show a leak (as explained in another > post) and if it was a leak, it follows the experiment around with > a probability that beats a billion to one. I think the data is perfectly in line with a leak, and I believe the probability you are quoting was a systematic error. I posted in more detail a few minutes ago. [snip] > It's funny how people, when confronted with a fact that blows > their argument to hell, reassure themselves by following up > with two or three true, but irrelevant facts. My points were intended for clarification, and I do not consider my argument 'blown to hell'. There is no need to be rude. > My point is, McKubre says the repeated this experiment > over thirty times, and the leak, which should occure > randomly between the control and experiment vessels, always > shows up in the experiment. Except for the three cases where the experiment failed. And we have no way of knowing which cell was used in which experiment. Suppose that all the successful runs were done with one particular cell, and all fails were done with the other cell? Wouldn't that tell you something? > > > 3) The rate of release of the inert gas would be high > > > initially, then level off as the area of trapped gas > > > reached equilibrium with the gas in the cell. What we see > > > is a curve of increasing He-4 production, thus, it is not > > > trapped gas. > > > > Helium diffuses slowly through metals, not quickly. As I said before, a > > virtual leak of this sort can last for months, years, even centuries, > > depending on metal thickness and other factors. > > It's funny how people, when confronted with a fact that blows > their argument to hell, reassure themselves by following up > with two or three true, but irrelevant facts. Actually, I don't > even know if what you say here in true. Again, there is absolutely no reason to be rude. My statement directly addresses your point above, and is perfectly valid. As for whether or not what I say is true, you will have to find external verification. I believe it is. > What's more, I don't > care, because you are ignoring the fact that this virtual > leak would follow the law of diffusion, and the graph clearly > shows it ISN'T. Thus it's IRRELEVANT because it is not a > leak. Please explain this further - what is the law of diffusion in this context? > Why are you telling me about the behavior of such leaks when > it isn't behaving like a leak should?! The very reason I posited a leak is because it describes exactly what I see in the data! A linear increase in the helium level is precisely what I would have expected to see. [snip] > > If the vessel was welded, this is a possible source of error that can > > account for all the observed helium. > > Nope. It would account for helium. It doesn't account for the > helium as it was observed. It does account for the helium as observed, eg linear increase over time. > > (Note that if it was welded at > > all, it would have been done with TIG. Mig welding of stainless steel > > is seldom if ever done for equipment of this sort.) > > Who cares. Oh, quit being an asshole. I'm trying to help here, and increase the science content of this otherwise noisy newsgroup. > > > 2) A virtual leak would give a concentration vs. time > > > grap like this: > > > > > > | *** > > > | * > > > | * > > > | * > > > | * > > > |* > > > |*_______________ > > > > This is assuming that the leak approaches equilibrium with the external > > helium concentration, > > Yep, the 2nd law. The curve HAS to look this way, with a > decreasing slope, because as the He builds up in the vessel, > more and more of it will leak "back" into the hole until > the hole and the vessel have equal levels. As I posted earlier, you are right. However, your scale is wrong. You should be looking at the very beginning of your curve, on a time frame where the slope changes less than 1% over the course of the experiment. Remember that the partial pressure of the helium in the chamber at experiment end was 11 ppm, or roughly 50 psi * 11 ppm = 5e-4 psi total. The pressure in any virtual leaks would be of the order of psi, so the build up of He in the vessel is utterly insignificant. > > or that the helium in the leak is significantly > > depleted. > > Nope. Even an inexhastable supply would level off as > the partial pressures equilized. Well yeah. What I'm saying is that the partial pressures are nowhere near being equalized. In fact, the difference doesnt even change by a significant amount over the course of the experiment. > > First, since the partial pressure of the trapped gas is of the order of > > psi, and the partial pressure in the vessel is of the order of > > millibars, it is obvious that the leak never approaches equilibrium. > > How big are these holes in the vessel are you imagining them > to be? Do you have problems with the decreasing slope? And don't > forget, for the gas to be trapped, it has to be at a temperature > near the melting point of steel, and you're talking TIG here, > really a hot arc. There is going to be much less than one > atm in the hole. I'm actually imagining a gap between two flange welds, which could contain up to milliliters of gas depending on construction. Gas bubbles typically form beneath the weld between two disjoint pieces, and can be several inches long in some cases (eg flanges and internal corner joints). Now, TIG temperatures. While the arc itself is very hot, stainless steel only has a temperature on the order of 2400 K, and the gas beneath it would be at about the same temperature. But you point is well taken - instead of 15 psi of gas beneath the weld, there should only be 15*300K/2400K or a little under two psi. This is assuming, of course, that there isn't a run under the weld for the gas to collect in. Still, 2 psi is a lot more than the 5e-4 psi observed during the course of the experiment. [snip] > > No, actually if you go look at the site, youll see that it looks more > > like a straight line with a small time offset, like this: > > > > | * > > | * > > | * > > | * > > | * > > | * > > |**_________________ > > I did an analysis of the curve with Mathcad. It's of the form > X=A+Bt+Ct^2. So you're flat out wrong. You're just seeing > the data the way you want to. I suggest that you are seeing the data as you want to. Just because mathcad is programmed to do polynomial best fit does not imply that that is what is going on. Especially given the error bars and the small number of data points. Did you try least squares fit? Do all the points on the least squares line happen to fit the error bars? I'll bet they do. And just exactly what mechanism do you propose to explain an x^2 helium curve anyway? Would you expect that from what you know about a fusion experiment? Why or why not? > It is not an offset straight > line. Besides, all you have done is falsely try and redefine > the shape of the graph. A leak would have a high intial > value. Why would a leak have a high initial value? From my understanding, it should be strictly linear over short terms such as this. Please explain. > You don't explain why that happens. Remember, it's > been replicated by Arata and repeated 30 times, so wierd > magic leak arguments aren't going to wash. > > > Given the scatter of the points on the plot, the data is obviously > > insufficiently accurate to assign any measure of curvature. > > Not according to Mathcad. I'm not even going to argue this. > Mathcad's numbers mean more to me than your skewed opinion. Then please have mathcad do a least squares approach, and show me that the points all lie outside of the error bars. [snip] > McKubre was quoted as disagreeding in this newsgroup, > pointing out the vessels were switched. Please post the details of which vessels were used in which experiments along with the correlations of which experiments failed. This would make the case for systematic error in the vessels significantly weaker. > > > 4) This experiment had been replicated and repeated > > > over thirty times, and the "leak" just happens to > > > ALWAYS follow the experimental cell. > > > > Not a problem if the experimental cell always happens to be a cell with > > inclusions, or the control always happens to be a cell without > > inclusions. > > More suppositions that fly in the face of what McKubre > told us about the experiment. Oh well, it's obvious that > you're going to assume what ever is necessary to "prove" > your point. Perhaps I don't just blindly believe what McKubre told us. More likely, I don't belive he told us the whole truth. Speaking of which, why are the papers no longer accessible? -dennis towne ******************************************** The e-mail address of the author of the above posts is Dennis Towne , in case anyone cares to discuss the subject with him. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Get real, Mitchell! For goodness sake, get real. If you want to know about >the containers at SRI, FIND OUT: > >READ THE LITERATURE >READ ORIGINAL SOURCES >WATCH THE ACS TAPE >READ THE ASTI PAPER >ASK MIKE MCKUBRE DIRECTLY > >There are so many ways to get solid facts and reliable information, why >waste time? Don't flounder around. Stop speculating about non-existent >welds, and reading hallucinatory ravings on s.p.f. ***{More contentless diversionary yapping. I asked you for a specific reference which contained the numbers alleged by you. The above non-specific rant is all I got back. What it illustrates is the reason I did not hold my breath while I was waiting. --MJ}*** > >I am looking at a picture of the SRI Case cells, and I don't see any welds. >Okay? ***{Nope. After a company such as Swagelok (the manufacturer of these cylinders) welds on the bottoms, they grind and polish to give the product a professional finish. If you doubt that the bottoms are welded on, the question you have to ask yourself is this: how did they attach circular pieces of stainless steel to the bottoms of these cylinders, if not by welding? --MJ}*** Maybe I am wrong about that. ***{You are. And your indifference to the possibility that you might be wrong is precisely the reason your conclusions cannot be trusted. --MJ}*** Hey, if it really matter to you, >and you don't believe in control experiments, ask McKubre or call the guy >who fabricated the containers. Get the facts from original sources. ***{No need. Richard Schultz, another poster on that horribly unreliable sci.physics.fusion newsgroup, has the Swagelok catalog. Here is what that catalog has to say about these containers: "Just to point out that according to my catalog, the 50 cc SS "miniature" sample cylinders are actually manufactured by Whitey (another Swagelok subsidiary); Nupro makes the valves. More to the point, the cylinders are *not* designed for vacuum work. They are described in the catalog as featuring "full penetration butt weld construction" and as being tested at 1667 psig pressure. There is no mention of vacuum leak testing, which I assume (given the nature of the rest of the catalog) implies very strongly that such testing is not done, as the cylinders are designed for high pressure use, not for vacuum." Note, in particular, the statement in the Swagelok catalog that the cylinders are of "full penetration butt weld construction." Enough said. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 10:52:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA13896; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:50:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:50:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203134921.0079fa60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:49:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000203121843.0079cdc0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"E5yTo1.0.xO3.OtScu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones quotes a bunch of people yapping about Swagelok cylinders. I have not been following this discussion, and I am not going to wade through this garbage. I don't know what they use out at SRI. Russ George told me last year that Swagelok stuff gave him nothing but trouble, and they switched over to something called "Conflat" instead. The cylindrical steel cells I have seen in Japan and the U.S. were drilled out of a solid piece of steel, and they were vacuum tested. If anyone seriously wants to know about this, and you do not find the information in the published reports, you must ask the people at SRI, or Russ George. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 10:59:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17265; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:57:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:57:12 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: JL Naudin's Work Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:07:59 -0500 Message-ID: <20000203190759765.AAA188 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"YpV2l1.0.aD4.7-Scu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahoy There, For those of you who are attempting to understand and/or possibly replicate the work of Jean-Luis Naudin, I have an URL which may be helpful. The information contained is quite comprehensive, but well condensed, and gives some excellent practical, hands-on advice for working with high voltage circuits. It also brings together and explains much of the underlying theory behind plasma physics, laser physics, nuclear phenomena, and many electrical concepts. I highly recommend spending the time to read this stuff, thoroughly. Follow all the links, too. It's a goldmine. http://www.misty.com/people/don/donflash.html Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 11:16:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24986; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:14:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:14:31 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:13:45 -1000 Subject: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FWwM73.0.J66.METcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts - >From newswires. This fuel cell tech was discussed here some time ago, and I was trying to remember the researcher, company, etc. Looks like things are going well. Hope the company gets rid of the scarlet letter "e" on their symbol. Stock is about $7.00 today. ------------------------ Manhattan Scientifics' Micro Fuel Cell Reaches 3X Energy of Lithium-Ion Cell Phone Batteries New, More Efficient Cell To Be Incorporated in Prototype Cellular Phone LOS ALAMOS, N.M.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Feb. 3, 2000--Manhattan Scientifics, Inc. (OTC BB: MHTXE) announced today a major research breakthrough: a Micro Fuel Cell(TM) test device achieved a specific energy output three times greater than standard lithium ion batteries currently used for cellular telephones. Manhattan Scientifics researchers believe their achievement of three times the energy output of lithium ion batteries is a step toward incremental increases in energy output. The research team is targeting a goal to exceed 10 times the energy output of conventional batteries. The test cell, developed at the company's Los Alamos research center, was powered by methanol and water, similar to common windshield washer fluid. In technical terms, it achieved a specific energy of 300 Watt*hours/kilogram of fuel. In theory this means that Micro Fuel Cell(TM) powered products could run three times longer on an ampule of fuel when compared with a rechargeable lithium ion battery of the same weight. Methanol powered micro fuel cells have the ultimate potential to deliver 30 times the energy of today's lithium ion batteries. According to Manhattan Scientifics' Chief Fuel Cell Scientist, Robert Hockaday, his research team recently incorporated a new efficiency innovation that provides more useful energy than the team was able to produce in previous test cells. He went on to state, ``Recently we have been focusing our efforts on new ways of improving fuel and energy efficiency. These latest results were stunning. And, based on what we've seen with these test cells I would consider these latest refinements to be one of the breakthroughs we have been seeking. The next step for the research team is to incorporate the new test cells into a working prototype cellular phone.'' Marvin Maslow, CEO of Manhattan Scientifics, said, ``This breakthrough moves us significantly closer to a commercial device. Once we select the right manufacturing and marketing partner, we could conceivably see Micro Fuel Cells for cellular telephones and other portable electronic devices in the market sometime in the year 2001. With the combination of our NovArs scientific team in Germany developing higher output fuel cells and the Hockaday engineering group in Los Alamos, we are confident that Manhattan Scientifics will retain its two niche positions in the forefront of the emerging fuel cell industry.'' On Dec. 12, 1999 the Hockaday team met a research milestone with a working prototype cellular phone running on stand-by for 24 hours with a talk time of 15 minutes. After reaching the milestone, his team began an intense effort to explore ways of increasing the power output necessary to substantially increase stand-by and talk times through more efficient and effective use of methanol. According to Hockaday this new breakthrough means, ``We have now overcome a major technical challenge in making a practical replacement for batteries.'' Manhattan Scientifics, Inc. is developing and commercializing proprietary technologies in the advancement of consumer and commercial electronics including micro fuel cell technology and holographic media for data storage and Internet-based image management. The Company is also developing nanoporous polymer filtering technologies. Manhattan Scientifics' research headquarters are located in Los Alamos, NM. Executive offices are in New York City. Copies of Manhattan Scientifics press releases, current quotes, stock charts and other information for investors may be found on the websites www.mhtx.com and http://www.hawkassociates.com. For further information contact Manhattan Scientifics CEO Marvin Maslow (212) 752-0505 or Investor Relations; Frank Hawkins (305)852-2383. Manhattan Scientifics' business address is 641 Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10022. The foregoing press release contains forward-looking statements, including statements regarding the company's expectation of its future business. These forward-looking statements are based largely on the company's expectations and are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties, certain of which are beyond the company's control. Actual results could differ materially from these forward-looking statements as a result of a variety of factors. These include but are not limited to, successfully completing the research and development with respect to the and other technologies, successfully commercializing the fuel cells and holographic storage devices for mass production, successfully protecting the company's patents, and effective significant industry competition from various entities whose capabilities far exceeds the company's. In light of these risks and uncertainties there can be no assurances that the forward-looking statements in this press release will in fact transpire or prove to be accurate. Manhattan Scientifics, Inc. Olympic Tower, 641 Fifth Avenue, Suite 36F, New York, NY 10022 Tel: (212) 752-0505 Fax: (212) 752-0077 http://www.mhtx.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 11:25:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29687; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:23:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:23:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203142254.0079b560 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:22:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1YfwZ3.0.nF7.qMTcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >The test cell, developed at the company's Los Alamos research center, was >powered by methanol and water, similar to common windshield washer fluid. That's great! That's safer than the micro-fuel cells being developed years ago, which required ampules of flamable fuel, sort of like lighters. I guess I would not mind carrying around one or two lighters, but to power a portable PC I would prefer something like windshield washer fluid, even if the energy density was lower. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:09:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16840; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:07:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:07:01 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:07:12 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <38998DDE.F0B49E98 ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0WANo1.0.F64.Z_Tcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed and others Most constant temperature boxes use what is called a type I servo, to maintain their temperature. It is basically an RC time constant, with a feedback loop. When the outside temperature is constant, or very slowly changing, it maintains a good "constant" temperature. When the outside temperature changes steadily, it ends up with a steady difference between the inside and outside temperatures, the ammount depending on the gain of the feedback loop. It also results in transient lags, when the outside temperature has a step change. The transients usually have an exponential decay back to the "constant" temperature with a time constant characteristic of your total system.. You need to be aware of this type of behavior when evaluating your system's performance. With careful dynamic calibration, you can compensate for this behavior, in effect changing it to a type II servo, which has a zero velocity lag. I don't know whether your system has this behavior, but it is something to consider. Keep up the good work. Hank On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > Michael, I trust you read the paper I placed on the Web and notice that I also > calibrated using a heater. In my case, the resistor is exposed Pt wire which > makes excellent thermal contact. As I demonstrated, no significant difference > is found between these two methods. > > My calorimeter is contained in a constant temperature box so I have no trouble > with this problem. As for flow mixing, I compared flow rates of 22 g/min and 45 > g/min and found no difference. This indicates that good mixing is achieved. > > Thanks for your comments, > Ed > > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > > Ed Storms wrote > > [snip] > > > However, I have many studies of > > > inactive samples, as you might expect. As for changing the samples and > > > seeing > > > changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using > > > inert > > > Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition > > > and > > > flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > > > > > > 0.0704 W/deg-flow > > > 0.0725 > > > 0.0712 > > > 0.0721 > > > 0.0709 > > > 0.0712 > > [snip] > > > When I have finished the present run in the > > > other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. > > > A > > > Seebeck calorimeter is on order and will be used to examine the active Pt > > > when > > > it arrives. Hopefully, the sample will turn on again. > > > > Ed, I think it is unwise to rely on calibration by electrolysis alone. I > > always included a resistor, suitably waterproofed by shrink wrap, immersed in > > my electrolyte to check my calorimeter (water flow type). > > > > My biggest source of drift and error was slow variations of the external > > temperature---mine was not nearly as stable as yours. Anyway, I don't think > > this would create an apparent excess heat result that would correlate with > > applied electrical power, as your signal does. I DID have a problem once, > > when noise from a noisy power supply got picked up by my thermocouple > > amplifiers. In this case, the tipoff was TOO CLOSE a correlation between EP > > and input power! > > > > Another source false calorimeter reading in my case was insufficient mixing > > of the water before the exit temperature measurement point. Once I identified > > the problem, I learned how to do good mixing in a short length of exit tube. > > > > Overall, my experience with water flow calorimetry was good. I would use it > > again, if I do new experiments. > > > > ===== > > Michael J. Schaffer > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:10:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17252; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:07:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:07:33 -0800 Message-Id: <812075012089D01191AA00805FBE342105549710 xch-evt-10.ca.boeing.com> From: "LaJoie, Stephen A" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:04:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"BqlMA3.0.DD4.20Ucu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:49 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES > > Mitchell Jones quotes a bunch of people yapping about Swagelok cylinders. I > have not been following this discussion, and I am not going to wade through > this garbage. I don't know what they use out at SRI. Russ George told me > last year that Swagelok stuff gave him nothing but trouble, and they > switched over to something called "Conflat" instead. > > The cylindrical steel cells I have seen in Japan and the U.S. were drilled > out of a solid piece of steel, and they were vacuum tested. > > If anyone seriously wants to know about this, and you do not find the > information in the published reports, you must ask the people at SRI, or > Russ George. > > - Jed > I'm one of the people that was "yapping" about swagelok cylinders, I guess. First, Russ George did a leak test that they keep ignoring. He brought the cylinders up to the experimental temperature (200 C) and pressure (3 atm) with deuterium in the experiment vessel and simple hydrogen in the control vessel with NO catalyst in either and held it there several days. No helium beyond .5 ppm. After this control for leaks from the hardware was done, the same was repeated with catalysts. This time, by day 5, helium appeared at about .5 ppm, and was increasing at about .25 ppm/day. By day 28, He-4 was increasing at about 1 ppm.day. Note that leaks, real or virtual, tend to decrease rate because they tend to reach equilibrium. Not this one, it increased! Note also that even at .25 ppm/day, this leak would have shown up after three days in the control cell. Nothing appeared. Leaks don't wait 5 days before starting. Leaks don't increase in rate. Leaks don't dodge controls that look for leaks. Further, the leak knows the difference between a control cell and an experimental cell. If it has a 50/50 chance of appearing in the Nupro cylinder, then there is a .5 chance of it being in George's experimental vessel, a .5 chance of NOT being in George's control. Further, it knew the difference and appeared in Case's experiment and control, too, because George was duplicating Case's work! That's a 6.25% chance. But each time George repeated it, and you'll note from his website that he repeated it "several times" (I wish he'd quit saying several and say "three" or whatever...) so the odds become even less. If you don't buy cold fusion, no way could you buy the finding of the top quark... The "leak" advocates avoid addressing these issues directly, and go on and on speculating about their intelligent leaks. It doesn't look like a leak. It doesn't appear during leak tests. It only appears in experimental cells. It doesn't matter how it was welded, this is NO leak. It is cold fusion! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:22:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24258; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:21:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:21:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3899E3B6.823B9F0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:23:44 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES References: <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AziL-1.0.ow5.FDUcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In all this discussion, I wonder why no one considers that the same cell is occasionally used for the control and for the active sample. How would the experts explain why the helium follows the sample and not the container? Are we to believe that the catalyst, which never saw helium, suddenly starts to release helium at a steady rate after it has been placed in deuterium gas but not when it is placed in hydrogen gas? If skeptics want to make a contribution, I suggest they deal with the real world and not just with their imaginations. I offer this as an example of not considering all possibilities, just as skeptics criticize believers for doing. Ed Storms Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >>***{Some people use helium. If you want to discuss technique with them, > >>post the above comments on sci.engr and sci.physics.fusion. (I saw a post > >>on spf on this subject just a week or so ago.) --MJ}*** > > > >Say, why not get the information about the SRI experiments from the > >National Enquirer instead? Or go fishing in a sewer? Let's go downtown and > >interview a gang of winos about helium contamination. They will be at least > >as well informed and coherent as the fruitcakes on s.p.f. Or you could try > >Ouija board, or one of those Magic Eight Ball things: "Answer Unclear, Ask > >Again Later" "You May Rely On It" > > ***{More generalized yapping, devoid of substance, and typical of you. > Fortunately, I saved the posts, and so I will let them speak for > themselves. The two most pertinent ones, surrounded by lines of asterisks, > are included below: > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:24:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25385; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:23:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:23:37 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:23:23 -1000 Subject: Re: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000203142254.0079b560 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oVj-c3.0.NC6.6FUcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: on 2/3/00 9:22 AM, Jed Rothwell at JedRothwell infinite-energy.com wrote: > Rick Monteverde wrote: > >> The test cell, developed at the company's Los Alamos research center, was >> powered by methanol and water, similar to common windshield washer fluid. > > That's great! That's safer than the micro-fuel cells being developed years > ago, which required ampules of flamable fuel, sort of like lighters. I > guess I would not mind carrying around one or two lighters, but to power a > portable PC I would prefer something like windshield washer fluid, even if > the energy density was lower. > > - Jed Yes, it's great that it's a non-flammable material. Might never get 'em on planes trains and automobiles otherwise. If my calcs are right, about 4 oz of fuel should give 10 hrs 3 watts. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:30:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27534; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:28:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:28:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203152659.0079e920 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:26:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000203134921.0079fa60 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000203121843.0079cdc0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000203090946.01d39670 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"c08MH3.0.4k6.fJUcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I asked McKubre what kind of cells they use at SRI. He says the first generation Case cells were off-the-shelf commercial NuPro sample bottles with a Swagelok seal and a thermowell e-beam welded at the top. Swagelok is hard to seal against H and He at high temperatures, so they changed to Conflat. Ed Wall may have some more info on this. The experiment is progressing. The cell design they are now using may be proprietary. They were a little reticent to talk about it, and I don't like to probe. You know me: I always mind my own business. If you don't believe that, ask Matsui, Asami and Kennell, a.k.a. the NHE Trio. They will do a Song and Dance about what a friendly and dependable fellow I am! Such charming people. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:36:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30739; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:34:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:34:50 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:35:00 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3899B9E8.27D006AF ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA30674 Resent-Message-ID: <"Pq2im3.0.BW7.fPUcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed All measuring systems using an Analog-to-digital (A/D) converter should be examined with an oscilloscope when first being set up. An elecrical analog filter should be placed in the input, to restrict the bandwidth, and lower the amount of electrical noise being measured. The bandwidth of the filter should not be more then half the sampling frequency of the A/D, and higher sampling frequencies are generally better for visualizing the signal in a computer. Your putting capacitors across the inputs are is an example of this type of filter. You look at the scope, and determine what the maximum frequency of the "signal" you are measuring is, and design the A/D and input filter accordingly. I am sure you have been intuitively doing this. Mitchell seems to keep missing this design point in his discussions. Hank On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > Let me explain the approach in more detail. The problem is to measure the > magnitude of the spikes. This can be done by taking points very frequently, which > I have done. Apparently, this approach is not satisfactory to you. The other > method would involve storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where their > average energy can be measured as a voltage. The spikes are equivalent to pulsed > DC which have a total energy defined by their magnitude and time duration. The > problem is to lengthen the time duration, so that they can be measured. This can > be done by storing the energy of the spike in a capacitor across the measuring > circuit. This does not act as a filter in the usual sense. Granted, the > capacitor looks like a low resistance load to the spike. However, this is because > the capacitor is storing the charge within the spike and in the process acquiring > a small DC voltage, which can be measured. Granted, some of the energy of the > spike will be lost in the resistance of the wiring so that an exact measure of > spike energy could be not obtained. However, if a significant voltage increase is > observed by placing such a capacitor in the circuit, evidence for important > spiking would be obvious. Of course, the reverse would also be true. > > I have to ask, "what process would produce such voltage spikes"? This can only > happen if the resistance of the electrolytic circuit suddenly changes. Small > changes are caused by bubble action. However, these variations are small and of > relative low frequency. How could spikes be made of intense magnitude and of such > short duration to be missed by the DA circuit? A process which changes the > resistance by a large amount would be needed. Some basic limitations exist. The > resistance of the supply circuit is about 0.2 ohm (mainly caused by the > resistance used to measure the current) and the resistance of the electrolytic > cell is about 7 ohm. No action at the cathode surface can reduce the cell > resistance below that of the electrolyte which, as I said, is about 7 ohm. > Consequently, spikes only can be produced by the resistance suddenly increasing. > At constant current, this would cause the voltage to suddenly rise. However, the > power supply has a limit as to how fast this rise can be and how fast the initial > value is returned when the resistance returns to normal. The rise and fall times > for my power supply are about 25 microsec for 90% return to normal with a > frequency response of 13 kHz. This limitation fixes the pulse width and the > repetition rate. Unfortunately, for your explanation, a higher cell resistance > will immediately result in lower power being deposited within the cell because of > the lag between the resistance change and the response of the power supply. If > the resistance stays high long enough for the power supply to respond, the higher > voltage would be seen by the measuring circuit. If the resistance quickly returned > to normal, before the power supply had a chance to respond and the before the DA > could see a change, the effect would be a net loss from the cell, a loss which > would not be reflected in the DA measurement. Consequently, the process should > produce an apparent negative heat, depending on how long the resistance remained > high. > > Does this make sense to you? > > Ed > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >Mitchell, I propose to address your "spikes" idea by placing capacitors on the > > >voltage and current measuring circuits. This would much reduce the > > >amplitude of any > > >spike, indeed the narrower the spike the greater the attenuation. This > > >way I do not > > >have to address the expected suggestion that very narrow spikes might be > > >missed by a > > >scope. Do you agree that this approach would solve the problem you suggest? > > > > ***{No. All capacitors are frequency sensitive. As frequency increases, the > > capacitor's opposition to a flow of current across its plates decreases. > > Result: no matter what capacitors you use in a filter, spikes that occur at > > rates above the critical frequencies of those capacitors are going to be > > shorted to ground, and will *not* be metered. Using capacitors for this > > purpose was extensively examined on sci.engr more than a year ago, in a > > discussion involving Don Lancaster. He poo-pooed the idea, for a number of > > reasons. Here are some relevant posts from that discussion: > > > > ****************************** > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > I take it, then, that you agree with > > > Fred's suggestion about using capacitors between the meters and the load > > > in the electrochemical cell experiment? If so, what would be your specific > > > approach to that design? What types and sizes of capacitors would you > > > recommend for an electrochemical cell setup that was pulling .3 amps at > > > 168 volts and showing an apparent COP of 1.5? > > > > Rather than fancy caps, I would use modern signal processing to accurately > > measure > > the power. Taking, say, 15,000 or more identical 12-bit or higher simultaneous > > voltage and current line locked samples per second, digitially multiplying them > > together, THEN averaging and summing and scaling. I'd also watch the > > waveforms for > > funny duty cycles, sparking, and stuff that would foul up the works. > > > > Either a PIC or a PC can now easily handle accurate power measurement. > > Tasks that > > were ridiculously expensive or complex (and definitely misunderstood) a > > year ago. > > Maxim has a superb new chip for this. > > -- > > Many thanks, > > > > Don Lancaster > > > > Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > > Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com > > Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com > > ****************************** > > In article <358A97D6.8A1F3EFF tinaja.com>, Don Lancaster > > wrote: > > > > > b.h.jarvis hw.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > > > Are you saying that the people who got it wrong did not know about power > > > > factor, and left out the cosí ? As simple as that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forgetting the cosine is only the first blundering step in making power > > > measurements that are so mesmerizingly awful that they are not even wrong. > > > > > > "The cosine" assumes you are dealing with clean fundamental frequency > > > sinewaves. If you add harmonics, nonlinearities, energy coupling, impulses, > > > rf, electrochemistry, non-constant loads, time variance, and (most > > > especially) sparking, the problem gets infinitely more complex. > > > > > > So much so that it has been virtually impossible for casual individuals to > > > make ANY meaningful power measurements on real world devices. Conventional > > > wattmeters are totally useless for this purpose. The PIC has only recently > > > cured this and low cost instruments that make the needed hundreds of digital > > > samples per half cycle and multiply them without crippling crest factor > > > restrictions are now becoming cheaply available. > > > > > > The key question is how much time and effort should be devoted with new > > > instruments proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that obviously bad labwork is > > > in fact obviously bad labwork. > > > > > > Tutorials on the problems and solutions involved in accurate power > > > measurement appear in http://www.tinaja.com/muse01.html > > > > > > A banner advertiser here also offers an exciting new instrument. > > > > > > -- > > > Many thanks, > > > > > > Don Lancaster > > > > > > Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > > > Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com > > > Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com > > ****************************** > > > > For more information on this topic, I suggest that you contact Don. He will > > probably be happy to point you toward a low cost solution to this problem. > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > [snip] > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:37:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31476; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:36:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:36:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203153546.00790df0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:35:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES In-Reply-To: <812075012089D01191AA00805FBE342105549710 xch-evt-10.ca.boe ing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Q64iK3.0.fh7.9RUcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: LaJoie, Stephen A wrote: >I'm one of the people that was "yapping" about swagelok cylinders, >I guess. > >First, Russ George did a leak test that they keep ignoring. He brought >the cylinders up to the experimental temperature (200 C) . . . A thousand pardons for calling it "yapping." I don't follow s.p.f. I had no idea of the content of this debate. I glanced through the extract that Mitch posted here, saw a few names like Richard Schultz, and pressed the delete button. Zap! Life is too short. Anyway, I made ammends by asking Mike McKubre, and he gave me the straight dope, but he can't talk about the latest stuff. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:41:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20256; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:38:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:38:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3899E778.31861C2B ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:39:49 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w9xPV.0.Ny4.oSUcu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The box I built contains a copper coil through which chilled water flows. A heater is located within the coil and a fan blows air through the assembly. A RTD detector using an Omega controller turns the heater on or off depending on the difference between the set point and the temperature. Under normal conditions, the temperaure is constant to +-0.02°. The temperature detector, which is recorded, is located at a different position than the control RTD, hence see a slightly different temperature. When power is applied to the cell, some thermal gradients are introduced by heat given off by the current sensing resistor. This produces a slight change in the detected temperature. However, because the calorimeter is completely enclosed in a vacuum dewar, small changes in the enclosure temperature have very little effect. Thanks for your comments Hank. Ed Storms hank scudder wrote: > Ed and others > Most constant temperature boxes use what is called a type I servo, > to maintain their temperature. It is basically an RC time constant, with a > feedback loop. When the outside temperature is constant, or very slowly > changing, it maintains a good "constant" temperature. When the outside > temperature changes steadily, it ends up with a steady difference between > the inside and outside temperatures, the ammount depending on the gain of > the feedback loop. It also results in transient lags, when the outside > temperature has a step change. The transients usually have an exponential > decay back to the "constant" temperature with a time constant > characteristic of your total system.. You need to be aware of this > type of behavior when evaluating your system's performance. With careful > dynamic calibration, you can compensate for this behavior, in effect > changing it to a type II servo, which has a zero velocity lag. > > I don't know whether your system has this behavior, but it is something to > consider. Keep up the good work. > > Hank > > On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Michael, I trust you read the paper I placed on the Web and notice that I also > > calibrated using a heater. In my case, the resistor is exposed Pt wire which > > makes excellent thermal contact. As I demonstrated, no significant difference > > is found between these two methods. > > > > My calorimeter is contained in a constant temperature box so I have no trouble > > with this problem. As for flow mixing, I compared flow rates of 22 g/min and 45 > > g/min and found no difference. This indicates that good mixing is achieved. > > > > Thanks for your comments, > > Ed > > > > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > > > > Ed Storms wrote > > > [snip] > > > > However, I have many studies of > > > > inactive samples, as you might expect. As for changing the samples and > > > > seeing > > > > changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using > > > > inert > > > > Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition > > > > and > > > > flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > > > > > > > > 0.0704 W/deg-flow > > > > 0.0725 > > > > 0.0712 > > > > 0.0721 > > > > 0.0709 > > > > 0.0712 > > > [snip] > > > > When I have finished the present run in the > > > > other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. > > > > A > > > > Seebeck calorimeter is on order and will be used to examine the active Pt > > > > when > > > > it arrives. Hopefully, the sample will turn on again. > > > > > > Ed, I think it is unwise to rely on calibration by electrolysis alone. I > > > always included a resistor, suitably waterproofed by shrink wrap, immersed in > > > my electrolyte to check my calorimeter (water flow type). > > > > > > My biggest source of drift and error was slow variations of the external > > > temperature---mine was not nearly as stable as yours. Anyway, I don't think > > > this would create an apparent excess heat result that would correlate with > > > applied electrical power, as your signal does. I DID have a problem once, > > > when noise from a noisy power supply got picked up by my thermocouple > > > amplifiers. In this case, the tipoff was TOO CLOSE a correlation between EP > > > and input power! > > > > > > Another source false calorimeter reading in my case was insufficient mixing > > > of the water before the exit temperature measurement point. Once I identified > > > the problem, I learned how to do good mixing in a short length of exit tube. > > > > > > Overall, my experience with water flow calorimetry was good. I would use it > > > again, if I do new experiments. > > > > > > ===== > > > Michael J. Schaffer > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 13:12:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14529; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:09:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:09:22 -0800 Message-Id: <812075012089D01191AA00805FBE342105549711 xch-evt-10.ca.boeing.com> From: "LaJoie, Stephen A" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:06:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"ZvYfu1.0.xY3.2wUcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > ---------- > From: Edmund Storms[SMTP:storms2 ix.netcom.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 12:23 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: In praise of ORIGINAL SOURCES > > In all this discussion, I wonder why no one considers that the same cell is > occasionally used for the control and for the active sample. How would the > experts explain why the helium follows the sample and not the container? > They don't, they ignore this. > Are we > to believe that the catalyst, which never saw helium, suddenly starts to release > helium at a steady rate > It wasn't a steady rate. It was an increasing rate. Analysis shows best fit was to something like y=0.29+0.094*t+0.011*t^2, where y is He-4 in ppm and t is in days. Leaks look like this: ****** *** ** * * * * Not like this: * * * * * ** > after it has been placed in deuterium gas but not when it > is placed in hydrogen gas? > The Pd on carbon catalysts was checked for helium by Arata, and there was no helium in it. > If skeptics want to make a contribution, I suggest they deal with the real world > and not just with their imaginations. > It would be nice. I no longer expect significant issues to be addressed. What is the point in arguing about TIG welds when it is obviously not a leak, real or virtual?. > I offer this as an example of not considering all possibilities, just as skeptics > criticize believers for doing. > > Ed Storms > > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > >>***{Some people use helium. If you want to discuss technique with them, > > >>post the above comments on sci.engr and sci.physics.fusion. (I saw a post > > >>on spf on this subject just a week or so ago.) --MJ}*** > > > > > >Say, why not get the information about the SRI experiments from the > > >National Enquirer instead? Or go fishing in a sewer? Let's go downtown and > > >interview a gang of winos about helium contamination. They will be at least > > >as well informed and coherent as the fruitcakes on s.p.f. Or you could try > > >Ouija board, or one of those Magic Eight Ball things: "Answer Unclear, Ask > > >Again Later" "You May Rely On It" > > > > ***{More generalized yapping, devoid of substance, and typical of you. > > Fortunately, I saved the posts, and so I will let them speak for > > themselves. The two most pertinent ones, surrounded by lines of asterisks, > > are included below: > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 13:53:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32763; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:49:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:49:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203164436.007f93e0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:44:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Storms' Pt: inlet temp control In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000203115445.0079eba0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000203100958.0079c810 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000203082148.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202165432.007a2420 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202115008.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000202102224.01d373c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000202105216.007a53b0 pop.mindspring.com> <38984581.6E8EF27F ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000401162526.01e327f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HXosn3.0.r_7.-VVcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:54 AM 2/3/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Mitchell Jones wrote: >>>>It cannot possibly be due to spikes! The effect occurs when there is no >>>input power, for crying out loud. No power = no spikes. End of story. Fini. >>>Owari. >> >>***{Asserted but not proven. You are making a leap of faith when you >>believe Mizuno's story. I am unwilling to make that leap. That's not to say >>I believe he is lying, mind you. All I am saying is that I am unwilling to >>base a conclusion of this importance on the uncorroborated assertions of a >>small number of individuals. Jed Rothwell wrote: >>Say what?!? Heat after death has been reported in the peer reviewed >literature by many researchers including P&F and McKubre (and Storm, I >think). > It was observed at CETI and in the independent tests of the CETI >device at Motorola. ALL gas loading and ion beam loading CF experiments >that produce heat or other nuclear effects are always in heat-after-death >mode, by definition. > This is not "uncorraborated assertions" or a "leap of >faith" it is one of the most carefully established and important facts >about the CF effect. >If you are "unwilling to base a conclusion" on this >kind of rock solid, widely replicated evidence, you are wasting your time >reading this forum or any paper or comments about CF. Yes, No, Not relevant, and false. Although "heat after death" (excess heat after the liquid runs dry) IS seen for Pd/D2O, it is not seen for nickel except in vertically-directed flow calorimetric systems which are not worth much anyway in terms of accuracy and sensitivity. And Mitchell Jones may be correct about the input power, but for both Ni and Pd systems, excess heat is seen when appropriate loading, OOP, material, and engineering factors considered. IMHO the majority of researchers in the field are VERY careful and do more meticulous, and better, jobs of measurement and control than some of the sophomoric attempts discussed on vortex which have improved, but have not survived a series of surmounting serious peer review. Nickel systems give modest excess heats, and not the reported "kilowatts" of the bogus low-flow vertical-directed flow calorimetric systems which create a false positive and can thereafter amplify the effect as well. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 14:25:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16796; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:23:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:23:30 -0800 Message-ID: <389A003D.C334B2B5 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:25:37 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y1X2Y3.0.G64.Y_Vcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well Hank, Mitchell is complaining that I'm measuring too little noise not too much. He claims that the cell is making spikes (noise) which is not seen by the DA system. This means that I am missing some of the power being applied to the cell, hence THINK I have excess power. My problem is to measure the signel in such a way to see all voltages, both DC as well as the supposed spikes. If I use a scope, he will claim the scope is not fast enough to see the spikes. If I measure the voltage and current every millisec (as I have done), he will claim that it the spikes occur between the measurements. How would you solve the problem? Ed Storms hank scudder wrote: > Ed > All measuring systems using an Analog-to-digital (A/D) converter > should be examined with an oscilloscope when first being set up. An > elecrical analog filter should be placed in the input, to restrict the > bandwidth, and lower the amount of electrical noise being measured. The > bandwidth of the filter should not be more then half the sampling > frequency of the A/D, and higher sampling frequencies are generally better > for visualizing the signal in a computer. Your putting capacitors across > the inputs are is an example of this type of filter. You look at the > scope, and determine what the maximum frequency of the "signal" you are > measuring is, and design the A/D and input filter accordingly. I am sure > you have been intuitively doing this. Mitchell seems to keep missing this > design point in his discussions. > > Hank > > On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Let me explain the approach in more detail. The problem is to measure the > > magnitude of the spikes. This can be done by taking points very frequently, which > > I have done. Apparently, this approach is not satisfactory to you. The other > > method would involve storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where their > > average energy can be measured as a voltage. The spikes are equivalent to pulsed > > DC which have a total energy defined by their magnitude and time duration. The > > problem is to lengthen the time duration, so that they can be measured. This can > > be done by storing the energy of the spike in a capacitor across the measuring > > circuit. This does not act as a filter in the usual sense. Granted, the > > capacitor looks like a low resistance load to the spike. However, this is because > > the capacitor is storing the charge within the spike and in the process acquiring > > a small DC voltage, which can be measured. Granted, some of the energy of the > > spike will be lost in the resistance of the wiring so that an exact measure of > > spike energy could be not obtained. However, if a significant voltage increase is > > observed by placing such a capacitor in the circuit, evidence for important > > spiking would be obvious. Of course, the reverse would also be true. > > > > I have to ask, "what process would produce such voltage spikes"? This can only > > happen if the resistance of the electrolytic circuit suddenly changes. Small > > changes are caused by bubble action. However, these variations are small and of > > relative low frequency. How could spikes be made of intense magnitude and of such > > short duration to be missed by the DA circuit? A process which changes the > > resistance by a large amount would be needed. Some basic limitations exist. The > > resistance of the supply circuit is about 0.2 ohm (mainly caused by the > > resistance used to measure the current) and the resistance of the electrolytic > > cell is about 7 ohm. No action at the cathode surface can reduce the cell > > resistance below that of the electrolyte which, as I said, is about 7 ohm. > > Consequently, spikes only can be produced by the resistance suddenly increasing. > > At constant current, this would cause the voltage to suddenly rise. However, the > > power supply has a limit as to how fast this rise can be and how fast the initial > > value is returned when the resistance returns to normal. The rise and fall times > > for my power supply are about 25 microsec for 90% return to normal with a > > frequency response of 13 kHz. This limitation fixes the pulse width and the > > repetition rate. Unfortunately, for your explanation, a higher cell resistance > > will immediately result in lower power being deposited within the cell because of > > the lag between the resistance change and the response of the power supply. If > > the resistance stays high long enough for the power supply to respond, the higher > > voltage would be seen by the measuring circuit. If the resistance quickly returned > > to normal, before the power supply had a chance to respond and the before the DA > > could see a change, the effect would be a net loss from the cell, a loss which > > would not be reflected in the DA measurement. Consequently, the process should > > produce an apparent negative heat, depending on how long the resistance remained > > high. > > > > Does this make sense to you? > > > > Ed > > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > >Mitchell, I propose to address your "spikes" idea by placing capacitors on the > > > >voltage and current measuring circuits. This would much reduce the > > > >amplitude of any > > > >spike, indeed the narrower the spike the greater the attenuation. This > > > >way I do not > > > >have to address the expected suggestion that very narrow spikes might be > > > >missed by a > > > >scope. Do you agree that this approach would solve the problem you suggest? > > > > > > ***{No. All capacitors are frequency sensitive. As frequency increases, the > > > capacitor's opposition to a flow of current across its plates decreases. > > > Result: no matter what capacitors you use in a filter, spikes that occur at > > > rates above the critical frequencies of those capacitors are going to be > > > shorted to ground, and will *not* be metered. Using capacitors for this > > > purpose was extensively examined on sci.engr more than a year ago, in a > > > discussion involving Don Lancaster. He poo-pooed the idea, for a number of > > > reasons. Here are some relevant posts from that discussion: > > > > > > ****************************** > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > > I take it, then, that you agree with > > > > Fred's suggestion about using capacitors between the meters and the load > > > > in the electrochemical cell experiment? If so, what would be your specific > > > > approach to that design? What types and sizes of capacitors would you > > > > recommend for an electrochemical cell setup that was pulling .3 amps at > > > > 168 volts and showing an apparent COP of 1.5? > > > > > > Rather than fancy caps, I would use modern signal processing to accurately > > > measure > > > the power. Taking, say, 15,000 or more identical 12-bit or higher simultaneous > > > voltage and current line locked samples per second, digitially multiplying them > > > together, THEN averaging and summing and scaling. I'd also watch the > > > waveforms for > > > funny duty cycles, sparking, and stuff that would foul up the works. > > > > > > Either a PIC or a PC can now easily handle accurate power measurement. > > > Tasks that > > > were ridiculously expensive or complex (and definitely misunderstood) a > > > year ago. > > > Maxim has a superb new chip for this. > > > -- > > > Many thanks, > > > > > > Don Lancaster > > > > > > Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > > > Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com > > > Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com > > > ****************************** > > > In article <358A97D6.8A1F3EFF tinaja.com>, Don Lancaster > > > wrote: > > > > > > > b.h.jarvis hw.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that the people who got it wrong did not know about power > > > > > factor, and left out the cosí ? As simple as that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forgetting the cosine is only the first blundering step in making power > > > > measurements that are so mesmerizingly awful that they are not even wrong. > > > > > > > > "The cosine" assumes you are dealing with clean fundamental frequency > > > > sinewaves. If you add harmonics, nonlinearities, energy coupling, impulses, > > > > rf, electrochemistry, non-constant loads, time variance, and (most > > > > especially) sparking, the problem gets infinitely more complex. > > > > > > > > So much so that it has been virtually impossible for casual individuals to > > > > make ANY meaningful power measurements on real world devices. Conventional > > > > wattmeters are totally useless for this purpose. The PIC has only recently > > > > cured this and low cost instruments that make the needed hundreds of digital > > > > samples per half cycle and multiply them without crippling crest factor > > > > restrictions are now becoming cheaply available. > > > > > > > > The key question is how much time and effort should be devoted with new > > > > instruments proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that obviously bad labwork is > > > > in fact obviously bad labwork. > > > > > > > > Tutorials on the problems and solutions involved in accurate power > > > > measurement appear in http://www.tinaja.com/muse01.html > > > > > > > > A banner advertiser here also offers an exciting new instrument. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Many thanks, > > > > > > > > Don Lancaster > > > > > > > > Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 > > > > Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com > > > > Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com > > > ****************************** > > > > > > For more information on this topic, I suggest that you contact Don. He will > > > probably be happy to point you toward a low cost solution to this problem. > > > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > > > [snip] > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 14:44:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28036; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:43:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:43:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000203173818.00802680 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:38:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <389A003D.C334B2B5 ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"C3Kt93.0.zr6.tHWcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:25 PM 2/3/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Well Hank, Mitchell is complaining that I'm measuring too little noise not too much. >He claims that the cell is making spikes (noise) which is not seen by the DA system. >This means that I am missing some of the power being applied to the cell, hence THINK I >have excess power. My problem is to measure the signel in such a way to see all >voltages, both DC as well as the supposed spikes. If I use a scope, he will claim the >scope is not fast enough to see the spikes. If I measure the voltage and current every >millisec (as I have done), he will claim that it the spikes occur between the >measurements. How would you solve the problem? > >Ed Storms > Sample at twice the highest frequency. ;-)X Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 15:16:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14893; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:14:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:14:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3899B9E8.27D006AF ix.netcom.com> References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:10:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"rtKF-1.0.Ye3.7lWcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Let me explain the approach in more detail. The problem is to measure the >magnitude of the spikes. This can be done by taking points very >frequently, which >I have done. Apparently, this approach is not satisfactory to you. ***{That is correct. Prior to the present post, your comments on this topic have been as follows: You said: "First of all, I am not using an ammeter. The DA system is sensitive from DC to about 100 k/c and the data are taken at about 1100 points/sec." My response: According to Don Lancaster, you need to take "hundreds of digital samples per half cycle" of the spiking waveform. Conservatively assuming 200 samples per half-cycle, or 400 samples per cycle, your taking of 1100 samples per second would safeguard you against spike frequencies up to about 3 Hz. That, in my view, is little better than no protection at all. You said: "While at LANL, we did look at the voltage with a fast scope and could see no evidence for voltage or current spikes of any significant magnitude. As I told you previously, the maximum hash on the voltage was about 50 mV. In addition, the current and voltage are stable to a few mA and mV." My response: Since you are no longer at LANL, I take the above comments to mean that you have not used a fast scope to examine the waveforms produced by the electrochemical cell with which you are presently working. Result: you are merely guessing if you claim that there are no significant spikes with frequencies above 3 Hz. I would also note that the magnitude which is significant is inversely proportional to the frequency of occurrence. Thus little bitty spikes of very high frequency can carry as much power as larger spikes of lower frequency. You said: "The voltage signals are measured using a National Instruments NB-MIO-16 DA board attached to a AMUX multiplexer. A MacIIfx running LabView is used to take the data. All data are taken under computer control." My response: This is excellent. It means you will be able to step up your sampling frequency and perform the kind of signal processing which Don recommends, in all likelihood, by merely purchasing new software. Did you contact him, as I suggested, and see what he had to say? --Mitchell Jones}*** The other >method would involve storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where >their >average energy can be measured as a voltage. The spikes are equivalent to >pulsed >DC which have a total energy defined by their magnitude and time duration. >The >problem is to lengthen the time duration, so that they can be measured. >This can >be done by storing the energy of the spike in a capacitor across the measuring >circuit. This does not act as a filter in the usual sense. ***{There is no way it can fail to do so, Ed. Capacitive reactance is given by Xc = 1/2pifC. By simple inspection of this formula, it is apparent that at zero frequency (DC mode) or at very low frequencies, the resistance to current flow across the plates of the capacitor is infinite or very high. (Assuming, of course, that the applied voltage is less than the breakdown voltage of the dielectric that separates the plates of the capacitor.) However, it is also clear from the formula that as the spike frequency rises, the resistance to current flow across the plates of the capacitor falls, and, as a result, that more and more of the applied current is going to be diverted to ground, and, thus, will not be metered. The only try to defeat this effect would be to use capacitors of very low capacitance, to compensate for the high frequency. Unfortunately, if you do that you lose the smoothing effect on the voltage spikes that you were trying to achieve. For these and other reasons, this apparently simple method of using capacitors to defeat spikes will not work. --MJ}*** Granted, the >capacitor looks like a low resistance load to the spike. However, this is >because >the capacitor is storing the charge within the spike and in the process >acquiring >a small DC voltage, which can be measured. Granted, some of the energy of the >spike will be lost in the resistance of the wiring so that an exact measure of >spike energy could be not obtained. ***{One problem is that at high spike frequencies the capacitor acts like a bypass filter, and diverts most of the spike energy to ground, before it can reach the meter. Another problem is that capacitors smooth voltage, not current. Hence to the extent that you are dealing with current spikes that are too fast for the current control circuit in your power supply, a capacitor would be useless anyway. (More on this below.) --MJ}*** However, if a significant voltage increase is >observed by placing such a capacitor in the circuit, evidence for important >spiking would be obvious. Of course, the reverse would also be true. > >I have to ask, "what process would produce such voltage spikes"? ***{Parallel questions would be "What process would produce excess heat?" or "What process would alter the thermal conductivity of the outer wall of the cell?" Since you are evidently perfectly comfortable with the lack of clear-cut answers to those questions, I would suggest that you ought to be equally comfortable in the absence of a clear-cut answer to the one about spikes, whether of the current or voltage variety. I can, of course, offer speculative answers to the question about spikes, just as in the past I have offered speculative answers to the questions about excess heat. For example, I would suggest that there may be a steam cloak over hot spots on your cathode, due to the presence of a resistive coating elsewhere. I would propose that those hot spots are small and that the steam cloak over them is thin enough to not be visible to the naked eye, as is the resistive coating elsewhere, and that because the current flow is concentrated in the hot spots, arcing occurs there, in much the same way that it occurs in the Mizuno cell. In that case, the current flow from cathode to electrolyte is due in part to high frequency current spikes, rather than to DC current flow, and hence is of the sort that could lead to undermeasurement of input power. Since only about 3% of the power needs to be accounted for in this way, I have no problem with this explanation from a plausibility standpoint. --Mitchell Jones}*** This can only >happen if the resistance of the electrolytic circuit suddenly changes. Small >changes are caused by bubble action. However, these variations are small >and of >relative low frequency. How could spikes be made of intense magnitude and >of such >short duration to be missed by the DA circuit? ***{As noted above, your sampling frequency would apparently render you vulnerable to large spikes that had very low frequencies--anything greater than 3 Hz, conservatively speaking. What I would expect, however, would be very small spikes of both current and voltage at very high frequencies, as I explain below. --MJ}*** A process which changes the >resistance by a large amount would be needed. ***{When a steam cloak forms over a hot spot, resistance from cathode to electrolyte becomes very large. Then, when the electrolyte wall approaches the surface close enough so that the potential difference exceeds the breakdown voltage, resistance will suddenly collapse and an arc will occur. [Note: the potential difference does not change, but the breakdown voltage becomes less and less as the steam cloak becomes thinner and thinner. Thus, eventually, the breakdown voltage is less than the potential difference, and an arc occurs. When that happens, there is a steam explosion at the point where the arc impacts the electrolyte wall, and the resulting release of steam thickens the steam cloak, so that the breakdown voltage is once again greater than the potential difference, and the cycle begins all over again.] --MJ}*** Some basic limitations exist. The >resistance of the supply circuit is about 0.2 ohm (mainly caused by the >resistance used to measure the current) and the resistance of the electrolytic >cell is about 7 ohm. No action at the cathode surface can reduce the cell >resistance below that of the electrolyte which, as I said, is about 7 ohm. ***{Once a resistive coating has formed over most of the cathode (or across most of the anode), current flow across the cell will depend on contact between the electrolyte and the electrode surface at the few remaining uncoated spots. Since all of the current must flow through those spots, they are going to heat up, and, when one of them gets hot enough that the nearby electrolyte flashes to steam, a huge jump in the resistance at that location will suddenly take place, and current flow at that location will suddenly shut down. But then, a moment later, as the liquid wall of electrolyte approaches the electrode surface again, another arc will occur, PRODUCING A CURRENT SPIKE THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE BLOCKED BY YOUR POWER SUPPLY, and which will, with utter certainty, produce a jagged AC waveform which cannot be properly dealt with by your present power metering procedures. (More on this below.) As a matter of curiosity: are your anodes and cathodes switched in and out of your cells as a pair, or individually? That is, when you switch an active cathode for an inactive one, do you switch *just* the cathode, or do you switch the anode as well? --Mitchell Jones}*** >Consequently, spikes only can be produced by the resistance suddenly >increasing. ***{No. As noted above, current spikes occur when the steam cloak over a hot spot becomes thin enough so that the potential difference exceeds the breakdown voltage. At that point an ionized pathway forms, resistance collapses, and the current spike occurs. --MJ}*** >At constant current, this would cause the voltage to suddenly rise. >However, the >power supply has a limit as to how fast this rise can be and how fast the >initial >value is returned when the resistance returns to normal. The rise and fall >times >for my power supply are about 25 microsec for 90% return to normal with a >frequency response of 13 kHz. This limitation fixes the pulse width and the >repetition rate. Unfortunately, for your explanation, a higher cell >resistance >will immediately result in lower power being deposited within the cell >because of >the lag between the resistance change and the response of the power supply. If >the resistance stays high long enough for the power supply to respond, the >higher >voltage would be seen by the measuring circuit. If the resistance quickly >returned >to normal, before the power supply had a chance to respond and the before >the DA >could see a change, the effect would be a net loss from the cell, a loss which >would not be reflected in the DA measurement. Consequently, the process >should >produce an apparent negative heat, depending on how long the resistance >remained >high. ***{At the microphysical level it is utterly impossible, even in principle, for your power supply to block the types of current spikes that I described above. The reason: as soon as the breakdown voltage is exceeded, the arc--the spike--occurs. There is no power in the universe by which your power supply can block that occurrence. All it can do is respond to it, a moment later, by creating a negative spike in the voltage, thereby causing, another moment later, a negative current spike. In short, the best your power supply can do is compensate for the spikes after they occur. And if it does so successfully, so that the resulting average current is exactly at the set point that you intend, you are still dealing with AC current and voltage, not DC, and because your PC is doing its computations based on the assumption of DC current, and thus is *not* multiplying the instantaneous voltage values by the current values as they exist at that instant, before averaging, summing, and scaling, errors are virtually guaranteed to creep in. When those errors cause you to overmeasure your input power, you merely conclude that you are dealing with a cathode which does not produce excess heat, and so you move on to the next cathode. But when the errors cause you to *undermeasure* your input power, you conclude that you are "over unity." There is a good chance, however, that it ain't so; but the only way you will ever be sure is to upgrade your system so that it will be able to accurately measure power under these conditions. As I noted above, it may be that all you will need is better software, to get your signal processing up to speed. Why not give Don Lancaster a call, and see what he recommends? --MJ}*** > >Does this make sense to you? > >Ed [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 16:48:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17562; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:46:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:46:18 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:46:33 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3899E778.31861C2B ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA17534 Resent-Message-ID: <"-Ayem.0.KI4.P5Ycu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed I understand much better what you have now. The time constant between the outside air, and your system is very large, much more then the response time of your internal regulation, and probably has no effect on your system at all. Still, sometime when the experiment is down for a while, you might experiment a little on how much external effects actually leak through. I know at home here in LA, my beer is warmer in the summer inside the refrig. :>}, but it is not a vacuum dewar by a long shot. Hank On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > The box I built contains a copper coil through which chilled water flows. A heater > is located within the coil and a fan blows air through the assembly. A RTD detector > using an Omega controller turns the heater on or off depending on the difference > between the set point and the temperature. Under normal conditions, the temperaure > is constant to +-0.02°. The temperature detector, which is recorded, is located at a > different position than the control RTD, hence see a slightly different temperature. > When power is applied to the cell, some thermal gradients are introduced by heat > given off by the current sensing resistor. This produces a slight change in the > detected temperature. However, because the calorimeter is completely enclosed in a > vacuum dewar, small changes in the enclosure temperature have very little effect. > > Thanks for your comments Hank. > > Ed Storms > > hank scudder wrote: > > > Ed and others > > Most constant temperature boxes use what is called a type I servo, > > to maintain their temperature. It is basically an RC time constant, with a > > feedback loop. When the outside temperature is constant, or very slowly > > changing, it maintains a good "constant" temperature. When the outside > > temperature changes steadily, it ends up with a steady difference between > > the inside and outside temperatures, the ammount depending on the gain of > > the feedback loop. It also results in transient lags, when the outside > > temperature has a step change. The transients usually have an exponential > > decay back to the "constant" temperature with a time constant > > characteristic of your total system.. You need to be aware of this > > type of behavior when evaluating your system's performance. With careful > > dynamic calibration, you can compensate for this behavior, in effect > > changing it to a type II servo, which has a zero velocity lag. > > > > I don't know whether your system has this behavior, but it is something to > > consider. Keep up the good work. > > > > Hank > > > > On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > > Michael, I trust you read the paper I placed on the Web and notice that I also > > > calibrated using a heater. In my case, the resistor is exposed Pt wire which > > > makes excellent thermal contact. As I demonstrated, no significant difference > > > is found between these two methods. > > > > > > My calorimeter is contained in a constant temperature box so I have no trouble > > > with this problem. As for flow mixing, I compared flow rates of 22 g/min and 45 > > > g/min and found no difference. This indicates that good mixing is achieved. > > > > > > Thanks for your comments, > > > Ed > > > > > > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > > > > > > Ed Storms wrote > > > > [snip] > > > > > However, I have many studies of > > > > > inactive samples, as you might expect. As for changing the samples and > > > > > seeing > > > > > changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using > > > > > inert > > > > > Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition > > > > > and > > > > > flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > > > > > > > > > > 0.0704 W/deg-flow > > > > > 0.0725 > > > > > 0.0712 > > > > > 0.0721 > > > > > 0.0709 > > > > > 0.0712 > > > > [snip] > > > > > When I have finished the present run in the > > > > > other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. > > > > > A > > > > > Seebeck calorimeter is on order and will be used to examine the active Pt > > > > > when > > > > > it arrives. Hopefully, the sample will turn on again. > > > > > > > > Ed, I think it is unwise to rely on calibration by electrolysis alone. I > > > > always included a resistor, suitably waterproofed by shrink wrap, immersed in > > > > my electrolyte to check my calorimeter (water flow type). > > > > > > > > My biggest source of drift and error was slow variations of the external > > > > temperature---mine was not nearly as stable as yours. Anyway, I don't think > > > > this would create an apparent excess heat result that would correlate with > > > > applied electrical power, as your signal does. I DID have a problem once, > > > > when noise from a noisy power supply got picked up by my thermocouple > > > > amplifiers. In this case, the tipoff was TOO CLOSE a correlation between EP > > > > and input power! > > > > > > > > Another source false calorimeter reading in my case was insufficient mixing > > > > of the water before the exit temperature measurement point. Once I identified > > > > the problem, I learned how to do good mixing in a short length of exit tube. > > > > > > > > Overall, my experience with water flow calorimetry was good. I would use it > > > > again, if I do new experiments. > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Michael J. Schaffer > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 17:17:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27069; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:15:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:15:30 -0800 Message-ID: <389A2883.D57EA65E ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:17:00 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iX_jz1.0.tc6.oWYcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Let me explain the approach in more detail. The problem is to measure the > >magnitude of the spikes. This can be done by taking points very > >frequently, which > >I have done. Apparently, this approach is not satisfactory to you. > > ***{That is correct. Prior to the present post, your comments on this topic > have been as follows: > > You said: "First of all, I am not using an ammeter. The DA system is > sensitive from DC to > about 100 k/c and the data are taken at about 1100 points/sec." > > My response: According to Don Lancaster, you need to take "hundreds of > digital samples per half cycle" of the spiking waveform. Conservatively > assuming 200 samples per half-cycle, or 400 samples per cycle, your taking > of 1100 samples per second would safeguard you against spike frequencies up > to about 3 Hz. That, in my view, is little better than no protection at > all. While I agree, if the spike frequency were very high, my sampling rate would not see all of the spikes, hence would miss some power. However, my rate would not miss all spikes, hence would show a scatter of values which would be apparent in the measurement. The scatter when excess power is being made is no greater than when dead Pt is studied. Surely you have to agree that some difference should be seen if spikes are occurring during EP production. > > > You said: "While at LANL, we did look at the voltage with a fast scope and > could see no > evidence for voltage or current spikes of any significant magnitude. As I told > you previously, the maximum hash on the voltage was about 50 mV. In > addition, the > current and voltage are stable to a few mA and mV." > > My response: Since you are no longer at LANL, I take the above comments to > mean that you have not used a fast scope to examine the waveforms produced > by the electrochemical cell with which you are presently working. Result: > you are merely guessing if you claim that there are no significant spikes > with frequencies above 3 Hz. I would also note that the magnitude which is > significant is inversely proportional to the frequency of occurrence. Thus > little bitty spikes of very high frequency can carry as much power as > larger spikes of lower frequency. The fact is that low voltage electrolytic cells simply do not show the effect you propose. Our studies al LANL merely showed that our cells of the present design, behave just like every electrochemist has learned to expect. You can not makeup a phenomena which does not exist. > > > You said: "The voltage signals are measured using a National Instruments > NB-MIO-16 DA board > attached to a AMUX multiplexer. A MacIIfx running LabView is used to take the > data. All data are taken under computer control." > > My response: This is excellent. It means you will be able to step up your > sampling frequency and perform the kind of signal processing which Don > recommends, in all likelihood, by merely purchasing new software. Did you > contact him, as I suggested, and see what he had to say? > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > The other > >method would involve storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where > >their > >average energy can be measured as a voltage. The spikes are equivalent to > >pulsed > >DC which have a total energy defined by their magnitude and time duration. > >The > >problem is to lengthen the time duration, so that they can be measured. > >This can > >be done by storing the energy of the spike in a capacitor across the measuring > >circuit. This does not act as a filter in the usual sense. > > ***{There is no way it can fail to do so, Ed. Capacitive reactance is given > by Xc = 1/2pifC. By simple inspection of this formula, it is apparent that > at zero frequency (DC mode) or at very low frequencies, the resistance to > current flow across the plates of the capacitor is infinite or very high. > (Assuming, of course, that the applied voltage is less than the breakdown > voltage of the dielectric that separates the plates of the capacitor.) > However, it is also clear from the formula that as the spike frequency > rises, the resistance to current flow across the plates of the capacitor > falls, and, as a result, that more and more of the applied current is going > to be diverted to ground, and, thus, will not be metered. The only try to > defeat this effect would be to use capacitors of very low capacitance, to > compensate for the high frequency. Unfortunately, if you do that you lose > the smoothing effect on the voltage spikes that you were trying to achieve. > For these and other reasons, this apparently simple method of using > capacitors to defeat spikes will not work. --MJ}*** You miss my point. If spikes are present, a capacitor would remove them. The result would be a lower measured voltage because the occasional spike which was detected by chance would no longer be present. However, if no change were seen, one could conclude that few spikes were present. > > > Granted, the > >capacitor looks like a low resistance load to the spike. However, this is > >because > >the capacitor is storing the charge within the spike and in the process > >acquiring > >a small DC voltage, which can be measured. Granted, some of the energy of the > >spike will be lost in the resistance of the wiring so that an exact measure of > >spike energy could be not obtained. > > ***{One problem is that at high spike frequencies the capacitor acts like a > bypass filter, and diverts most of the spike energy to ground, before it > can reach the meter. Another problem is that capacitors smooth voltage, not > current. Hence to the extent that you are dealing with current spikes that > are too fast for the current control circuit in your power supply, a > capacitor would be useless anyway. (More on this below.) --MJ}*** Current is measured by measuring a voltage. The same argument applies to this voltage. > > > However, if a significant voltage increase is > >observed by placing such a capacitor in the circuit, evidence for important > >spiking would be obvious. Of course, the reverse would also be true. > > > >I have to ask, "what process would produce such voltage spikes"? > > ***{Parallel questions would be "What process would produce excess heat?" > or "What process would alter the thermal conductivity of the outer wall of > the cell?" Since you are evidently perfectly comfortable with the lack of > clear-cut answers to those questions, I would suggest that you ought to be > equally comfortable in the absence of a clear-cut answer to the one about > spikes, whether of the current or voltage variety. I can see a layer on the wall. That is very clear cut. I do not know what process produces heat in my cell but I know it is present. I have reasons to believe the energy can be made by a nuclear reaction. I am aware of several very good models for explaining how this happens. That is also very clear cut. The idea of spikes being present is only an idea which has very little physical basis. While I can not prove they are not present, no direct evidence can be found in the measurements for their presence, except the excess power. > > > I can, of course, offer speculative answers to the question about spikes, > just as in the past I have offered speculative answers to the questions > about excess heat. For example, I would suggest that there may be a steam > cloak over hot spots on your cathode, due to the presence of a resistive > coating elsewhere. I would propose that those hot spots are small and that > the steam cloak over them is thin enough to not be visible to the naked > eye, as is the resistive coating elsewhere, and that because the current > flow is concentrated in the hot spots, arcing occurs there, in much the > same way that it occurs in the Mizuno cell. In that case, the current flow > from cathode to electrolyte is due in part to high frequency current > spikes, rather than to DC current flow, and hence is of the sort that could > lead to undermeasurement of input power. Since only about 3% of the power > needs to be accounted for in this way, I have no problem with this > explanation from a plausibility standpoint. Unfortunately, it is only plausible to someone who has no experience with electrochemistry and who is desperate to explain the EP. First of all, the voltage on the cell is too small to produce an arc. My power supply limits the voltage to below 10 V no matter what happens in the cell. This is not like the Mizuno cell where the voltage is very high. Second, steam formation makes a noise as any one who has done these experiments knows. My cells are completely silent. Third, the cell resistance can only rise if most of the cathode were covered by a gas layer, not just spots. I have had cathodes drop off the lead wire, thus greatly reducing the area exposed to the current. Hardly any change was produced in any of the measurements. In other words, concentrating the current does not produce local boiling or hardly any change in the cell resistance. Of course, if the current is made sufficiently high, boiling can be produced but this effect is very obvious. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > This can only > >happen if the resistance of the electrolytic circuit suddenly changes. Small > >changes are caused by bubble action. However, these variations are small > >and of > >relative low frequency. How could spikes be made of intense magnitude and > >of such > >short duration to be missed by the DA circuit? > > ***{As noted above, your sampling frequency would apparently render you > vulnerable to large spikes that had very low frequencies--anything greater > than 3 Hz, conservatively speaking. What I would expect, however, would be > very small spikes of both current and voltage at very high frequencies, as > I explain below. --MJ}*** > > A process which changes the > >resistance by a large amount would be needed. > > ***{When a steam cloak forms over a hot spot, resistance from cathode to > electrolyte becomes very large. Then, when the electrolyte wall approaches > the surface close enough so that the potential difference exceeds the > breakdown voltage, resistance will suddenly collapse and an arc will occur. > [Note: the potential difference does not change, but the breakdown voltage > becomes less and less as the steam cloak becomes thinner and thinner. Thus, > eventually, the breakdown voltage is less than the potential difference, > and an arc occurs. When that happens, there is a steam explosion at the > point where the arc impacts the electrolyte wall, and the resulting release > of steam thickens the steam cloak, so that the breakdown voltage is once > again greater than the potential difference, and the cycle begins all over > again.] --MJ}*** I monitor the cell resistance and the condition of the electrode surface. If an insulating layer formed, I would see it in the over-voltage measurement. No such films form on these electrodes. > > > Some basic limitations exist. The > >resistance of the supply circuit is about 0.2 ohm (mainly caused by the > >resistance used to measure the current) and the resistance of the electrolytic > >cell is about 7 ohm. No action at the cathode surface can reduce the cell > >resistance below that of the electrolyte which, as I said, is about 7 ohm. > > ***{Once a resistive coating has formed over most of the cathode (or across > most of the anode), current flow across the cell will depend on contact > between the electrolyte and the electrode surface at the few remaining > uncoated spots. Since all of the current must flow through those spots, > they are going to heat up, and, when one of them gets hot enough that the > nearby electrolyte flashes to steam, a huge jump in the resistance at that > location will suddenly take place, and current flow at that location will > suddenly shut down. But then, a moment later, as the liquid wall of > electrolyte approaches the electrode surface again, another arc will occur, > PRODUCING A CURRENT SPIKE THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE BLOCKED BY YOUR POWER > SUPPLY, and which will, with utter certainty, produce a jagged AC waveform > which cannot be properly dealt with by your present power metering > procedures. (More on this below.) The maximum voltage is 10 V and the electrolyte resistance is 7 ohm. Therefore, the maximum current is 1.4 A no matter what happens at the cathode. For even this high a current to occur, a total open circuit would have to exist long enough for the voltage to rise to 10 V (a time which is determined by the characteristics of the power supply) and the current spike would only last until the voltage had dropped to its previous value. As I said above, such local hot spots producing steam do not happen in cells running at the voltages used in this study. If you don't believe me, I suggest you talk to an electrochemist. > > > As a matter of curiosity: are your anodes and cathodes switched in and out > of your cells as a pair, or individually? That is, when you switch an > active cathode for an inactive one, do you switch *just* the cathode, or do > you switch the anode as well? I only change the cathode. > Mitchell, This discussion is getting nowhere. You are so sure spikes are present that you will make up the most implausible mechanisms to justify that belief. If spikes are present they have to result from a process which can be analyzed in real terms and measurements can be suggested to indicated their presence. So far, all aspects of your proposed mechanism are absent, except EP. Unless, I can see some way for the spikes to occur and have some indication of their presence other than EP, I am not going to invest a lot of time in a search, especially when, as I suspect, a failure to find them will just create another set of arguments rather than closure. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 17:34:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAB00344; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:31:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:31:13 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Letter to Hal Puthoff Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:41:40 -0500 Message-ID: <20000204014140843.AAA241 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"cnj8b3.0.I5.VlYcu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom writes: I want to call your attention to the GIF at >http://www.svpvril.com/updates.html , three spheres rotating around a >common neutral center in two and three dimentions. Hi Tom, I just tried to access this URL, and get a message saying the account has been disabled, please contact customer service to get the account restored. If you have any contact information, you might want to check and see what the problem is. As I recall, this website had some important information on it. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 18:52:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05325; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:51:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:51:30 -0800 Message-ID: <389A3F12.7330A638 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:53:20 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vNmMZ2.0.3J1.nwZcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank, My controller is designed to hold a temperature to +-0.01° which I bet your refrig can not do even on a good day. Nevertheless, I will try your suggestion one of these days. Thanks Ed hank scudder wrote: > Ed > I understand much better what you have now. The time constant > between the outside air, and your system is very large, much more then the > response time of your internal regulation, and probably has no > effect on your system at all. Still, sometime when the experiment is down > for a while, you might experiment a little on how much external effects > actually leak through. I know at home here in LA, my beer is warmer in the > summer inside the refrig. :>}, but it is not a vacuum dewar by a long > shot. > > Hank > > On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > The box I built contains a copper coil through which chilled water flows. A heater > > is located within the coil and a fan blows air through the assembly. A RTD detector > > using an Omega controller turns the heater on or off depending on the difference > > between the set point and the temperature. Under normal conditions, the temperaure > > is constant to +-0.02°. The temperature detector, which is recorded, is located at a > > different position than the control RTD, hence see a slightly different temperature. > > When power is applied to the cell, some thermal gradients are introduced by heat > > given off by the current sensing resistor. This produces a slight change in the > > detected temperature. However, because the calorimeter is completely enclosed in a > > vacuum dewar, small changes in the enclosure temperature have very little effect. > > > > Thanks for your comments Hank. > > > > Ed Storms > > > > hank scudder wrote: > > > > > Ed and others > > > Most constant temperature boxes use what is called a type I servo, > > > to maintain their temperature. It is basically an RC time constant, with a > > > feedback loop. When the outside temperature is constant, or very slowly > > > changing, it maintains a good "constant" temperature. When the outside > > > temperature changes steadily, it ends up with a steady difference between > > > the inside and outside temperatures, the ammount depending on the gain of > > > the feedback loop. It also results in transient lags, when the outside > > > temperature has a step change. The transients usually have an exponential > > > decay back to the "constant" temperature with a time constant > > > characteristic of your total system.. You need to be aware of this > > > type of behavior when evaluating your system's performance. With careful > > > dynamic calibration, you can compensate for this behavior, in effect > > > changing it to a type II servo, which has a zero velocity lag. > > > > > > I don't know whether your system has this behavior, but it is something to > > > consider. Keep up the good work. > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > > > > Michael, I trust you read the paper I placed on the Web and notice that I also > > > > calibrated using a heater. In my case, the resistor is exposed Pt wire which > > > > makes excellent thermal contact. As I demonstrated, no significant difference > > > > is found between these two methods. > > > > > > > > My calorimeter is contained in a constant temperature box so I have no trouble > > > > with this problem. As for flow mixing, I compared flow rates of 22 g/min and 45 > > > > g/min and found no difference. This indicates that good mixing is achieved. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your comments, > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ed Storms wrote > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > However, I have many studies of > > > > > > inactive samples, as you might expect. As for changing the samples and > > > > > > seeing > > > > > > changes in the calibration constant, I have listed values obtained using > > > > > > inert > > > > > > Pt during recent studies during which the conditions of data acquisition > > > > > > and > > > > > > flow rate were the same as used during the Pt study. > > > > > > > > > > > > 0.0704 W/deg-flow > > > > > > 0.0725 > > > > > > 0.0712 > > > > > > 0.0721 > > > > > > 0.0709 > > > > > > 0.0712 > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > When I have finished the present run in the > > > > > > other calorimeter I will place the active Pt in it and see if EP is made. > > > > > > A > > > > > > Seebeck calorimeter is on order and will be used to examine the active Pt > > > > > > when > > > > > > it arrives. Hopefully, the sample will turn on again. > > > > > > > > > > Ed, I think it is unwise to rely on calibration by electrolysis alone. I > > > > > always included a resistor, suitably waterproofed by shrink wrap, immersed in > > > > > my electrolyte to check my calorimeter (water flow type). > > > > > > > > > > My biggest source of drift and error was slow variations of the external > > > > > temperature---mine was not nearly as stable as yours. Anyway, I don't think > > > > > this would create an apparent excess heat result that would correlate with > > > > > applied electrical power, as your signal does. I DID have a problem once, > > > > > when noise from a noisy power supply got picked up by my thermocouple > > > > > amplifiers. In this case, the tipoff was TOO CLOSE a correlation between EP > > > > > and input power! > > > > > > > > > > Another source false calorimeter reading in my case was insufficient mixing > > > > > of the water before the exit temperature measurement point. Once I identified > > > > > the problem, I learned how to do good mixing in a short length of exit tube. > > > > > > > > > > Overall, my experience with water flow calorimetry was good. I would use it > > > > > again, if I do new experiments. > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Michael J. Schaffer > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > > > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 20:40:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06822; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:38:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:38:27 -0800 Message-ID: <20000204043823.3363.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:38:23 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"yJRUq1.0.Wg1.3Vbcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Michael, I trust you read the paper I placed on the Web and notice that I also >calibrated using a heater. In my case, the resistor is exposed Pt wire >which >makes excellent thermal contact. As I demonstrated, no significant >difference >is found between these two methods. Sorry, Ed. I'd forgotten that. This time, I have printed hard copy of your paper from Jed's site. Just to be prudent, I would think you should not use Pt exposed to electrolyte. After all, you are trying to measure excess heat from Pt in electrolyte.....Excellent thermal contact is not a requirement for the calibration resistor to do its job. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 20:42:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA08798; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:40:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:40:59 -0800 Message-ID: <20000204044056.13209.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:40:56 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"l9z992.0.I92.RXbcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > On the outlet side, the flow goes from the spacious envelope and squeezes > into the tube. The speed of the flow changes. That should mix it, with the > Venturi effect. It does not mix well, unless the flow in the tube is very turbulent. Narrow tubes suppress turbulence. Ergo, one cannot be assured that flow in the outlet side is well mixed. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 21:34:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25411; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:31:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:31:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20000204053142.12984.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:31:42 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"_GfBe.0.yC6.1Hccu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry, Knuke, I missed replying to you on this. > On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > >>Michael S. writes: [snip Schaffer stuff] >>This is where I am evidently getting confused, I guess. The DC inputpower >>is fed, I'm supposing, as a series of high speed, square wave pulses into >>the step-up transformer. The output from the transformer, in my mind, >>should still be DC. While the voltage may look like AC because it is >>sinusoidal, it is still a positive voltage throughout the wavelength of the >>pulse. No matter what the primary waveform, a transformer only passes the AC component. AC component is defined as "having a time averaged value equal to zero." >>The photos even indicate that the voltage is measured as VDC, and >>the value of the voltage throughout the waveform never falls below zero. The zero levels are not identified in Naudin's scope picture, as I remember. The label "VDC" from the oscilloscope means that it is set to respond to all components of the signal, AC and DC. If the label were "AC", it would respond to only AC, by filtering out the DC, usually by an internal coupling capacitor. >>I'm also supposing that the waveform is sinusoidal, as opposed to square >>waved, after the transformer because of the rise and fall time that occurs >>in the transformer as the voltage inductively rises and collapses through >>the core. Most transformers have frequency dependent responses. They are far from the "ideal transformer," whose voltage and current ratios are independent of frequency. It is not unusual for a real transformer to not pass high frequency components well, in which case the output wave shape is nore sinusoidal appearing than the input wave. >>Is this use of the term AC in this case merely a conventionally >>used misnomer, or is my entire understanding of AC wrong? I don't have a >>good picture of what the theory is behind flyback transformers, and this may >>be the trouble. Thanks for the help. AC does not have to be sinusoidal. In the broadest sense, it AC means that the signal has a zero time averaged value. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 22:18:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04439; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:15:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:15:05 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <3e.e038d5.25cbc85a aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 01:14:50 EST Subject: Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA04408 Resent-Message-ID: <"_RgNd2.0.B51.evccu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 04/02/00 06:35:04 Paris, Madrid, schaffermj yahoo.com a écrit : > The zero levels are not identified in Naudin's scope picture, as I remember. Hey... Have you really seen the scope pictures.... All zero levels are well identified, you will seen the channel number just in line with... Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 23:42:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23929; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:41:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:41:27 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF6EA0.405A5DB0 istf-1-8.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:41:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF6EA0.405A5DB0" Resent-Message-ID: <"WE2MQ2.0.mr5.dAecu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF6EA0.405A5DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick,=20 This company looks interesting - but... if I'm reading it right, the = information at: http://www.secinfo.com/dr4ur.63W9.htm (an SEC filing) indicates that only about 10% of their expenses are for R&D ($8,763,000 = / $835,000) - is this normal for a research/technology company that = doesn't have mature products yet? Dan Quickert -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde=20 Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:14 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news Gnorts - >From newswires. This fuel cell tech was discussed here some time ago, = and I was trying to remember the researcher, company, etc. Looks like things = are going well. Hope the company gets rid of the scarlet letter "e" on their symbol. 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> > Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 06:29:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25192; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 06:27:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 06:27:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <389A003D.C334B2B5 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:24:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"1iifp2.0.Y96.u6kcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Well Hank, Mitchell is complaining ***{I'm not complaining. I am trying to suggest ways to settle this question once and for all, so that you, and I, and others, can reach a solid conclusion about whether the effect is real. --MJ}*** that I'm measuring too little noise not too much. >He claims that the cell is making spikes (noise) which is not seen by the >DA system. ***{I'm not making a claim. I'm trying to get you to address a possibility that you seem determined to ignore. As I see it, we have a choice: either some unknown condition of the cathode is giving rise to a current waveform that differs from your assumption of constant current by enough to produce a 3% undermeasurement of input power, or else some unknown condition of the cathode is giving rise to "cold fusion." It has become crystal clear that (a) your procedure for computation of input power simply multiplies your power-supply set point value times instantaneous voltage, as determined by an inappropriately low sampling rate, thereby rendering your measurement of input power vulnerable to variations in current, and (b) you are not monitoring your voltage and current waveforms with a fast scope, and thus you do not know whether you are dealing with a varying current waveform or not. Unlike you, I see this state of affairs as a problem. --MJ}*** >This means that I am missing some of the power being applied to the cell, >hence THINK I >have excess power. My problem is to measure the signel in such a way to >see all >voltages, both DC as well as the supposed spikes. If I use a scope, he >will claim the >scope is not fast enough to see the spikes. ***{The fact is that you won't know how I will react until you make some effort to examine the waveforms which your cell is producing, which thus far you have not done. If your efforts are merely token, involving some crappy low-speed scope which obviously is not up to the task, then I might continue to have misvings about your results. However, any attempt on your part to look at the waveform will obviously be better than no effort at all. --MJ}*** If I measure the voltage and current every >millisec (as I have done), he will claim that it the spikes occur between the >measurements. ***{Here your prediction of how I will react is on firm ground, since I have already passed on to you Don Lancaster's suggestion that you should take several hundred simultaneous current and voltage samples per half cycle, when dealing with irregular waveforms. Your sampling rate of 1100 per second, directed at the voltage only, obviously is not up to that standard where the current is concerned, and would only be adequate on the voltage side for waveforms with a frequency under 3 Hz. --MJ}*** How would you solve the problem? ***{You obviously don't agree that there *is* a problem! In your opinion, an unknown condition of the cathode which results in more energy coming out of the system than is flowing into the system is perfectly plausible, whereas an unknown condition of the cathode that might give rise to a violation of your assumption of constant current is simply out of the question! Naturally, since such a possibility is utterly out of the question, actually putting a fast scope on the cell and examining the current waveform would be a waste of time and money! In response to such an attitude, what can I possibly say? --MJ}*** > >Ed Storms [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 07:34:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23897; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:31:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:31:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <389AF123.6827E604 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:32:53 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <20000204043823.3363.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_zK-z1.0.Gr5.03lcu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I beg to differ. The heater needs to make good thermal contact so that the heat does not go up the wires rather than into the electrolyte. In addition, I can use the exposed Pt as a crude reference electrode. Heat is only produce by Pt when it is electrolyzed as the cathode after being coated with a deposited layer. The heater wire is not being electrolyzed. After all, the anode is Pt, a situation which can not be avoided. Ed Michael Schaffer wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >Michael, I trust you read the paper I placed on the Web and notice that I > also > >calibrated using a heater. In my case, the resistor is exposed Pt wire > >which > >makes excellent thermal contact. As I demonstrated, no significant > >difference > >is found between these two methods. > > Sorry, Ed. I'd forgotten that. This time, I have printed hard copy of your > paper from Jed's site. > > Just to be prudent, I would think you should not use Pt exposed to > electrolyte. After all, you are trying to measure excess heat from Pt in > electrolyte.....Excellent thermal contact is not a requirement for the > calibration resistor to do its job. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 07:42:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25080; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:41:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:41:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000204104017.0079d7c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:40:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: References: <389A003D.C334B2B5 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xy9mE1.0.o76.CClcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >You obviously don't agree that there *is* a problem! In your opinion, >an unknown condition of the cathode which results in more energy coming out >of the system than is flowing into the system is perfectly plausible, >whereas an unknown condition of the cathode that might give rise to a >violation of your assumption of constant current is simply out of the >question! Naturally, since such a possibility is utterly out of the >question, actually putting a fast scope on the cell and examining the >current waveform would be a waste of time and money! In response to such an >attitude, what can I possibly say? You could say nothing, shut up, and read the literature. This hypothesis of yours, that "spikes" are producing the excess heat, has been raised time after time, by many people before you. It was first proposed in April 1989, when CF was announced, by the electrochemists themselves. Since then many people have checked for spikes using the very methods you propose -- with fast scopes -- and with other methods you have not thought of. Pons & Fleischmann did these tests, as did Storms, McKubre, Mizuno, and every other major CF researcher I know. Not once, at any time, did anyone ever see the slightest evidence that these spikes exist or could exist. Furthermore, thousands of experiments with other systems have been done in which spikes and input power measurement cannot be a factor, because there *is no input electricity,* yet excess heat and other nuclear effects are observed in these other systems. There is no test left undone, and no chance this hypothesis is correct, and no point in wasting any more time on it. Cold fusion is not caused by spikes, or recombination, or chemical energy storage. These and many other hypotheses were carefully ruled out 10 years ago. And besides, if there were spikes in this particular case, it would be readily apparent with the equipment and techniques already being used. In short, you are beating a dead horse. In fact, you are beating the desiccated bones of a dead horse. What you need is to play the soundtrack with "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" as you re-enact the first part of the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey," whacking apart old bones, pretending you are the first of our species to come up with an idea which has actually been common knowledge since the dawn of CF history. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 07:45:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26469; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:43:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:43:05 -0800 Message-ID: <389AF19B.76D4ACA7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:34:53 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <20000204044056.13209.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oH8oi.0.UT6.9Elcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One can if large changes in flow rate produce no effect, which is the case in my cell. Experiment always wins over speculation. Ed Michael Schaffer wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > On the outlet side, the flow goes from the spacious envelope and squeezes > > into the tube. The speed of the flow changes. That should mix it, with the > > Venturi effect. > > It does not mix well, unless the flow in the tube is very turbulent. Narrow > tubes suppress turbulence. Ergo, one cannot be assured that flow in the > outlet side is well mixed. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 08:10:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06398; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:09:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:09:07 -0800 Message-ID: <389AFA09.68A25D46 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:10:53 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C_dWD3.0.qZ1.Yclcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Well Hank, Mitchell is complaining > > ***{I'm not complaining. I am trying to suggest ways to settle this > question once and for all, so that you, and I, and others, can reach a > solid conclusion about whether the effect is real. --MJ}*** As you and I both know, searching for spikes and finding none will not settle the issue. You and other people will find other ways to explain the results. This is only one small step on the road to acceptance. On the other hand, if I am able to make samples which produce the effect on demand, all of your prosaic models vanish in one stroke. Consequently, I put my time where it will do the most good. If I had some indication for spikes from other measurements, as I noted earlier, I would be more than willing to check your idea. But in the absence of any plausible mechanism for producing such spikes and the cost in money and time to check with a suitable scope, I will take a different approach. Although this might seem unreasonable and arbitrary to you, since you do not have to invest any time or money, it is very reasonable in my circumstances. > > > that I'm measuring too little noise not too much. > >He claims that the cell is making spikes (noise) which is not seen by the > >DA system. > > ***{I'm not making a claim. I'm trying to get you to address a possibility > that you seem determined to ignore. As I see it, we have a choice: either > some unknown condition of the cathode is giving rise to a current waveform > that differs from your assumption of constant current by enough to produce > a 3% undermeasurement of input power, or else some unknown condition of the > cathode is giving rise to "cold fusion." It has become crystal clear that > (a) your procedure for computation of input power simply multiplies your > power-supply set point value times instantaneous voltage, as determined by > an inappropriately low sampling rate, thereby rendering your measurement of > input power vulnerable to variations in current, and (b) you are not > monitoring your voltage and current waveforms with a fast scope, and thus > you do not know whether you are dealing with a varying current waveform or > not. Unlike you, I see this state of affairs as a problem. --MJ}*** I have not ignored the problem. I have only not addressed it in the way you suggest for the reasons stated above. > > > >This means that I am missing some of the power being applied to the cell, > >hence THINK I > >have excess power. My problem is to measure the signel in such a way to > >see all > >voltages, both DC as well as the supposed spikes. If I use a scope, he > >will claim the > >scope is not fast enough to see the spikes. > > ***{The fact is that you won't know how I will react until you make some > effort to examine the waveforms which your cell is producing, which thus > far you have not done. If your efforts are merely token, involving some > crappy low-speed scope which obviously is not up to the task, then I might > continue to have misvings about your results. However, any attempt on your > part to look at the waveform will obviously be better than no effort at > all. --MJ}*** "Up to the task" is the critical statement. What, in your mind would be up to the task? How wide are these spikes? How many thousand dollars must I spend on a scope? > > If I measure the voltage and current every > >millisec (as I have done), he will claim that it the spikes occur between the > >measurements. > > ***{Here your prediction of how I will react is on firm ground, since I > have already passed on to you Don Lancaster's suggestion that you should > take several hundred simultaneous current and voltage samples per half > cycle, when dealing with irregular waveforms. Your sampling rate of 1100 > per second, directed at the voltage only, obviously is not up to that > standard where the current is concerned, and would only be adequate on the > voltage side for waveforms with a frequency under 3 Hz. --MJ}*** As I said before, I take all measurements, voltage and current, at about 1100 point/sec. The data sets for voltage and current are averaged to give the power. If I were to multiply each point to get the power, the process would take additional time and slow down the process. I can not devote the entire DA cycle to only measuring V and I. I have a number of temperatures to measure also. If I ignore the temperatures, you will argue, I suspect, that the power and the temperature were not measured at the same time, hence a drift could be interpreted as EP. Since you are not doing the study and have no experience with my DA system, I suggest you are prone to suggest solutions which are impractical. Therefore, my failure not to follow your suggestions is not my being stubborn but just trying to do the best job with the resources at hand. > > > How would you solve the problem? > > ***{You obviously don't agree that there *is* a problem! In your opinion, > an unknown condition of the cathode which results in more energy coming out > of the system than is flowing into the system is perfectly plausible, > whereas an unknown condition of the cathode that might give rise to a > violation of your assumption of constant current is simply out of the > question! Naturally, since such a possibility is utterly out of the > question, actually putting a fast scope on the cell and examining the > current waveform would be a waste of time and money! In response to such an > attitude, what can I possibly say? --MJ}*** You can say that the possibility exists for the claimed nuclear reaction being real, that some patterns of behavior have no other rational explanation, and that while you can suggests prosaic possibilities, they generally do not fit well with the experimental facts. Nevertheless, it is worth exploring such possibilities and you would help in this search by making reasonable, practical and useful suggestions while maintaining an open mind. That is what you can say. Is this too much to ask? Such an approach would make a collaboration worthwhile for both of us. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 08:13:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07326; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:11:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:11:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000204111043.007a0e80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:10:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Venturi mixing - if Dr. V. had had an English father In-Reply-To: <389AF19B.76D4ACA7 ix.netcom.com> References: <20000204044056.13209.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"B8vdB1.0.No1.ielcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > It does not mix well, unless the flow in the tube is very turbulent. Narrow > tubes suppress turbulence. Ergo, one cannot be assured that flow in the > outlet side is well mixed. Edmund Storms responded: >One can if large changes in flow rate produce no effect, which is the case in >my cell. Experiment always wins over speculation. Well, to be fair, I was speculating about *why* the experiments show good mixing, and Mike was pointing out a flaw in my speculation. I guess there is no question the mixing is complete. Mike says the tube is narrow, but from the diagram it looks fairly short, too. Venturi effect mixing occurs right where the flow goes from a wide channel to a narrow one, and speeds up. I suppose it reaches the temperature sensor a short distance away. Perhaps the narrow tube does not have time to dampen the mixing. There is a simple kind of mixer called a Venturi, which shaped like a "V." It is inserted into pipes, narrowing the flow at one point only, which is apparently enough to do the job. (I figure it's shaped like "V" for "Venturi," and if the guy had been called "Smith" instead they would make it serpentine, in his honor. But what would a Dr. Smith be doing in Italy?) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 08:34:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17274; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:32:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:32:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000204103252.01e469c4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:32:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: References: <389A003D.C334B2B5 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YQWEo3.0.lD4.Pylcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:24 AM 2/4/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >As I see it, we have a choice: either >some unknown condition of the cathode is giving rise to a current waveform >that differs from your assumption of constant current by enough to produce >a 3% undermeasurement of input power, or else some unknown condition of the >cathode is giving rise to "cold fusion." I would bet that your input power mismeasurement hypothesis is about the least likely artifactual explanation for Ed's EP signal. Ordinarly electrolysis power just doesn't present much of a measurement challenge. The main opportunities for error lie in the thermal behavior of the entire system. BTW, I haven't found anything that appears to invalidate Ed's EP signal yet. >***{Here your prediction of how I will react is on firm ground, since I >have already passed on to you Don Lancaster's suggestion that you should >take several hundred simultaneous current and voltage samples per half >cycle, when dealing with irregular waveforms. Don Lancaster's suggestion would be valid if Ed were trying to draw a faithful representation of the voltage/current waveform, as an oscilloscope does. However, since Ed only wants to know the average POWER being delivered to the cell, he can use any sampling rate he wants, provided it does not precisely synchronize with the frequency of the waveforms being measured. This important point was driven home to me recently by Dr. Donald Hess, President of Clarke-Hess, Inc. when he surprised me with the information that the Clarke-Hess 2330 Sampling Power Analyzer, which features a 400 kHz bandwidth, uses a nominal sampling rate of 2155 Hz! To guard against possible synchronizations, the CH2330 has a frequency measuring circuit that determines the primary frequency of the waveforms and adjust the actual sampling rate +/- a few hundred Hz around 2155 Hz to get away from any harmonics of the waveform. If the waveform doesn't have a distinct frequency, so much the better. There will be no chance of a detrimental synchronization. As you know, I have personally tested the CH2330 (our power analyzer) on a wide variety of waveforms and can attest to its superb performance. The Mizuno experiment produces a very erratic current waveform (see http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html). Based upon the excellent power balance observed in my calorimetric studies of the Mizuno experiment, either the 2330 measures the power in that waveform very well or it always undermeasures the input power by precisely the amount of excess heat that my Mizuno experiments are producing. In another test with a waveform constructed of 2 mS bursts of 40 Khz sine waves with the bursts spaced 16 mS apart, the 2330 measured the input power very well. see http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html This time I know it couldn't be excess heat compensating for the 2330's errors because the experiment was a simple resistor. In view of this, Mitchell, I suggest you drop the input power mismeasurement hypothesis...unless you can ferret out of Ed's data some support for it. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 09:11:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32368; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:09:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:09:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000204120834.007a0ec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 12:08:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000204103252.01e469c4 mail.eden.com> References: <389A003D.C334B2B5 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YwbZL.0.Pv7.yUmcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >This important point was driven home to me recently by Dr. Donald Hess, >President of Clarke-Hess, Inc. when he surprised me with the information >that the Clarke-Hess 2330 Sampling Power Analyzer . . . Goodness! Talk about original sources and getting it from the horse's mouth! >The Mizuno experiment produces a very erratic current waveform (see >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html). Based upon the excellent >power balance observed in my calorimetric studies of the Mizuno experiment, >either the 2330 measures the power in that waveform very well . . . Bear in mind that Mizuno himself often gets a perfect balance of input and output, with no excess. Usually this is not what he wants, but he sometimes does it deliberately, as a calibration with glow discharge. He said something like 'look what happens when I back off the voltage right about here, at this temperature. If there is any excess, it will go away.' (He does not actually see the heat balance and excess-or-no-excess until an hour later when the cell has cooled and the data has been processed. It is not real-time calorimetry, which is a shame. You have to learn to control it by intuition, by guess and by golly. You hope it is working and you find out for sure later.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 10:16:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28174; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:14:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:14:29 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:14:42 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VyseM.0.8u6.4Sncu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Look at it a different way. The overhead rate on their R&D is 900%. Even at General Electric's R&D Center it was only 350%. Hank On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Dan - > > Don't know if that's normal in general, but it might be if they're after > more financing at this point, or merger/buyout, etc. Speculative. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > on 2/3/00 9:41 PM, Dan Quickert at dequickert ucdavis.edu wrote: > > > Rick, > > > > This company looks interesting - but... if I'm reading it right, the > > information at: > > http://www.secinfo.com/dr4ur.63W9.htm (an SEC filing) > > indicates that only about 10% of their expenses are for R&D ($8,763,000 / > > $835,000) - is this normal for a research/technology company that doesn't have > > mature products yet? > > > > Dan Quickert > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 10:38:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09503; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:32:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:32:42 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <389A2883.D57EA65E ix.netcom.com> References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:26:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"1D1_k.0.gJ2.yincu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >Let me explain the approach in more detail. The problem is to measure the >> >magnitude of the spikes. This can be done by taking points very >> >frequently, which >> >I have done. Apparently, this approach is not satisfactory to you. >> >> ***{That is correct. Prior to the present post, your comments on this topic >> have been as follows: >> >> You said: "First of all, I am not using an ammeter. The DA system is >> sensitive from DC to >> about 100 k/c and the data are taken at about 1100 points/sec." >> >> My response: According to Don Lancaster, you need to take "hundreds of >> digital samples per half cycle" of the spiking waveform. Conservatively >> assuming 200 samples per half-cycle, or 400 samples per cycle, your taking >> of 1100 samples per second would safeguard you against spike frequencies up >> to about 3 Hz. That, in my view, is little better than no protection at >> all. > >While I agree, if the spike frequency were very high, my sampling rate >would not >see all of the spikes, hence would miss some power. However, my rate >would not >miss all spikes, hence would show a scatter of values which would be >apparent in >the measurement. The scatter when excess power is being made is no >greater than >when dead Pt is studied. Surely you have to agree that some difference >should be >seen if spikes are occurring during EP production. ***{No, I don't agree, but in order to explain why, I have to focus on some details concerning the situation we may be dealing with here. Therefore, please bear with me. I will explain why the scatter can be the same when these needed preliminaries are out of the way. As I explained yesterday, if arcing is occuring due to some unknown condition of the cathode, there is nothing your power supply can do to prevent current spikes. All it can do is compensate for a current spike after the fact by dropping the voltage, thereby producing a negative current spike that is hopefully of the same size as the one caused by the arc, so that the *average* value of the current stays at your set point, despite the positive and negative spikes. Note, however, that under these conditions, your assumption of constant current has been invalidated. You are no longer dealing with DC current, but with an AC current that has an average value which is held to your set point. Result: to obtain a proper computation of input power, a much faster sampling rate and more complex procedures are required. Under these conditions, you must take *simultaneous* samples of both current and voltage and multiply them together to get the power at an instant, and, since you are not dealing with sinewaves, you must produce hundreds of such power values per half-cycle and average them together, to ensure that you capture the true value of power consumption during that half cycle. After doing that, you sum the values for all of the half-cycles during the time interval, scale the result to whatever power units you are using, and display or record the value. Why do you have to do it this way? Because both the current and the voltage are varying, and in an irregular fashion. Hence you cannot assume that the power consumption in one half-cycle is the same as in another, and you most certainly cannot assume that the current is DC and use your set-point value over and over again, as you are apparently doing. Now, the reason the scatter does not have to vary is simply that *all* of your cathodes may be producing AC waveforms, and, hence, all may have the same scatter. For most of them, however, the specifics of the waveforms may be such that the input power computations either reach a correct result due to averaging out of the variations, or reach an erroneous result in which input power comes out too high rather than too low. You may be erroneously under unity sometimes and erroneously over unity at other times, and the scatter of values within runs of the two types may be the same. All my hypothesis requires is that an unknown condition of the cathode produces an undermeasurement of input power. It does not preclude the existence of similar cathode conditions that produce correct measurements or overmeasurements. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >> >> >> You said: "While at LANL, we did look at the voltage with a fast scope and >> could see no >> evidence for voltage or current spikes of any significant magnitude. As >>I told >> you previously, the maximum hash on the voltage was about 50 mV. In >> addition, the >> current and voltage are stable to a few mA and mV." >> >> My response: Since you are no longer at LANL, I take the above comments to >> mean that you have not used a fast scope to examine the waveforms produced >> by the electrochemical cell with which you are presently working. Result: >> you are merely guessing if you claim that there are no significant spikes >> with frequencies above 3 Hz. I would also note that the magnitude which is >> significant is inversely proportional to the frequency of occurrence. Thus >> little bitty spikes of very high frequency can carry as much power as >> larger spikes of lower frequency. > >The fact is that low voltage electrolytic cells simply do not show the >effect you >propose. Our studies al LANL merely showed that our cells of the present >design, >behave just like every electrochemist has learned to expect. You can not >makeup a >phenomena which does not exist. ***{To be precise, you stated that your scope results at LANL showed no *significant* current variations, not that they showed no variations at all. But with your sampling rates as low as they are, and with your calculations geared to the assumption that the current waveform is DC, how can you possibly judge whether the variations you observed were significant or not? Bottom line: I think there is a clear problem with your procedures for measuring input power. Until it has been eliminated, I don't think you can justifiably conclude that the variations you observed at LANL were insignificant. --MJ}*** > >> >> >> You said: "The voltage signals are measured using a National Instruments >> NB-MIO-16 DA board >> attached to a AMUX multiplexer. A MacIIfx running LabView is used to >>take the >> data. All data are taken under computer control." >> >> My response: This is excellent. It means you will be able to step up your >> sampling frequency and perform the kind of signal processing which Don >> recommends, in all likelihood, by merely purchasing new software. Did you >> contact him, as I suggested, and see what he had to say? >> >> --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >> The other >> >method would involve storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where >> >their >> >average energy can be measured as a voltage. The spikes are equivalent to >> >pulsed >> >DC which have a total energy defined by their magnitude and time duration. >> >The >> >problem is to lengthen the time duration, so that they can be measured. >> >This can >> >be done by storing the energy of the spike in a capacitor across the >>measuring >> >circuit. This does not act as a filter in the usual sense. >> >> ***{There is no way it can fail to do so, Ed. Capacitive reactance is given >> by Xc = 1/2pifC. By simple inspection of this formula, it is apparent that >> at zero frequency (DC mode) or at very low frequencies, the resistance to >> current flow across the plates of the capacitor is infinite or very high. >> (Assuming, of course, that the applied voltage is less than the breakdown >> voltage of the dielectric that separates the plates of the capacitor.) >> However, it is also clear from the formula that as the spike frequency >> rises, the resistance to current flow across the plates of the capacitor >> falls, and, as a result, that more and more of the applied current is going >> to be diverted to ground, and, thus, will not be metered. The only try to >> defeat this effect would be to use capacitors of very low capacitance, to >> compensate for the high frequency. Unfortunately, if you do that you lose >> the smoothing effect on the voltage spikes that you were trying to achieve. >> For these and other reasons, this apparently simple method of using >> capacitors to defeat spikes will not work. --MJ}*** > >You miss my point. If spikes are present, a capacitor would remove them. ***{Um, no, this is a new point. If you don't believe me, go back (above) and and re-read the remarks, made by you, to which I was responding. You did not speak of removing the spikes, but of "storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where their average energy can be measured as a voltage." --MJ}*** The >result would be a lower measured voltage because the occasional spike >which was >detected by chance would no longer be present. ***{Given your low sampling rate, very few would be detected by chance, and, thus, removing those few that are would probably have no discernable effect on the measurement. --MJ}*** However, if no change were seen, >one could conclude that few spikes were present. ***{Or else, as would be more reasonable, one could conclude that few had been detected by chance before the capacitor was introduced. --MJ}*** > >> >> >> Granted, the >> >capacitor looks like a low resistance load to the spike. However, this is >> >because >> >the capacitor is storing the charge within the spike and in the process >> >acquiring >> >a small DC voltage, which can be measured. Granted, some of the energy >>of the >> >spike will be lost in the resistance of the wiring so that an exact >>measure of >> >spike energy could be not obtained. >> >> ***{One problem is that at high spike frequencies the capacitor acts like a >> bypass filter, and diverts most of the spike energy to ground, before it >> can reach the meter. Another problem is that capacitors smooth voltage, not >> current. Hence to the extent that you are dealing with current spikes that >> are too fast for the current control circuit in your power supply, a >> capacitor would be useless anyway. (More on this below.) --MJ}*** > >Current is measured by measuring a voltage. The same argument applies to this >voltage. ***{No it doesn't. Voltage and current are independent variables. The classical definition of capacitance, in fact, is "that property of an electric circuit which opposes any change in the voltage across that circuit." [*Principles of Electricity*, by Eugene Key, pg. 110] The point is that placing a capacitor across the leads to your cell will stabilize the voltage, but will not stabilize the current. In fact, the presence of such a capacitor would interfere with the efforts of the power supply to control the current by varying the voltage, and might actually *increase* the magnitude of the current spikes. --MJ}*** > >> >> >> However, if a significant voltage increase is >> >observed by placing such a capacitor in the circuit, evidence for important >> >spiking would be obvious. Of course, the reverse would also be true. >> > >> >I have to ask, "what process would produce such voltage spikes"? >> >> ***{Parallel questions would be "What process would produce excess heat?" >> or "What process would alter the thermal conductivity of the outer wall of >> the cell?" Since you are evidently perfectly comfortable with the lack of >> clear-cut answers to those questions, I would suggest that you ought to be >> equally comfortable in the absence of a clear-cut answer to the one about >> spikes, whether of the current or voltage variety. > >I can see a layer on the wall. That is very clear cut. I do not know what >process produces heat in my cell but I know it is present. ***{What you know is that when you subtract power in from power out, there is a 3% excess. Whether that excess is due to an undermeasurement of input power, or to the presence of real excess heat, is something you will not know until you begin to measure your input power in a manner that is not vulnerable to variations in the current waveform. --MJ}*** I have reasons to >believe the energy can be made by a nuclear reaction. ***{You also have reasons to believe that the *appearance* of excess energy can be created by a varying current waveform, given the fact that your calculations assume that the current waveform does not vary. --MJ}*** I am aware of several very >good models for explaining how this happens. ***{You are also aware of a very good model that explains how, given your protocol for power measurement, the false impression of excess heat could be created. --MJ}*** That is also very clear cut. ***{So are the implications of a varying current waveform, given your measurement protocol. --MJ}*** The >idea of spikes being present is only an idea which has very little physical >basis. ***{If by "spikes" you refer to variations in the supposedly constant current waveform, I don't know whether you are right or not. The reason: you did not say there were no variations when you looked at the current waveform in a similar experiment at LANL. Instead, you said the observed variations were not significant. Your wording suggests to me that variations were present, and that you are employing your subjective judgment to dismiss them. Since I have no way of knowing whether your judgment in this matter is accurate, I would prefer that you begin to employ a measuring protocol that would not be vulnerable to such variations, so that I could feel some confidence that you do, in fact, have excess heat. I recognize, of course, that you will do what you prefer, rather than what I prefer. --MJ}*** While I can not prove they are not present, no direct evidence can be >found in the measurements for their presence, except the excess power. ***{And no direct evidence can be found for your excess heat, except the excess power. --MJ}*** >> >> I can, of course, offer speculative answers to the question about spikes, >> just as in the past I have offered speculative answers to the questions >> about excess heat. For example, I would suggest that there may be a steam >> cloak over hot spots on your cathode, due to the presence of a resistive >> coating elsewhere. I would propose that those hot spots are small and that >> the steam cloak over them is thin enough to not be visible to the naked >> eye, as is the resistive coating elsewhere, and that because the current >> flow is concentrated in the hot spots, arcing occurs there, in much the >> same way that it occurs in the Mizuno cell. In that case, the current flow >> from cathode to electrolyte is due in part to high frequency current >> spikes, rather than to DC current flow, and hence is of the sort that could >> lead to undermeasurement of input power. Since only about 3% of the power >> needs to be accounted for in this way, I have no problem with this >> explanation from a plausibility standpoint. > >Unfortunately, it is only plausible to someone who has no experience with >electrochemistry and who is desperate to explain the EP. ***{It is inappropriate for you to speculate about events in my stream of consciousness. For the record, I am quite sure that I want your excess heat to be real *far more* than you do, because I do not merely see vast and beneficial implications for myself personally in that case, but I also see enormously positive implications for the future evolution of the human species. Nevertheless, however much I may want your conclusion to be true, wishing will not make it so, and thus far you have not supplied proof. --MJ}*** First of all, the >voltage on the cell is too small to produce an arc. ***{False. It is too small to produce a *visible* arc. But, since I explicitly stated that the arcs I had in mind were to small to be visible, that is not a problem. --MJ}*** My power supply limits the >voltage to below 10 V no matter what happens in the cell. This is not like the >Mizuno cell where the voltage is very high. ***{Actually, this notion of a maximum of 10 volts is false. (See below.) But even if it were true, all that it would mean would be that the arcs would be much smaller, not that they will not be present at all. In fact, there will probably be thousands of them, moving about like a herd of tiny cattle on the surface of the electrode, and giving rise to parallel swings in the current waveform, despite the efforts of your power supply to hold things exactly constant. As I noted yesterday, vast numbers of tiny arcs would have the same implications with regard to power measuring errors as would small numbers of large ones. --MJ}*** Second, steam formation makes a noise >as any one who has done these experiments knows. ***{False. It depends on how rapidly the steam is being formed. I stated explicitly that the steam layer I had in mind was so thin as to be invisible on the cathode. I would expect it to be inaudible as well. (How can you object? You assume that your supposed "cold fusion" is invisible and inaudible as well!) --MJ}*** My cells are completely silent. ***{You say the cold fusion is silent. I suggest that the steam is silent. The only way to decide which possibility is real is to improve your power measuring protocol. --MJ}*** >Third, the cell resistance can only rise if most of the cathode were >covered by a >gas layer, not just spots. ***{Maybe it is. Since the supposed steam cloak is so thin as to be invisible, how can we know its distribution on the cathode? --MJ}*** I have had cathodes drop off the lead wire, thus >greatly reducing the area exposed to the current. Hardly any change was >produced >in any of the measurements. ***{So you continue to get excess heat even after the cathode falls off of the lead wire? Now *that* is a surprise! Indeed, as I think about it, it must be false. You said, after all, that when you switch an active cathode for an inactive one, the effect goes away. Therefore, when you refer to "hardly any change, include changes that are large enough to make the excess heat go away! Need I point out that, in this discussion, that is *not* a trivial change? In any case, you cannot refute my position by quibbling about the details the theory which I tossed out solely to placate you, given the massive problems in the theories which have attempted to explain how real excess heat could be occurring in these cells. The central thrust of my position is simply this: I suggest that an unknown condition of the cathode may give rise to a varying current waveform and an erroneous calculation of excess power, given a vulnerable measurement protocol such as the one you are admittedly using. You cannot discount that possibility by quibbling with one particular speculative hypothesis concerning how that might happen, any more than I can refute your theory that an unknown condition of the cathode gives rise to "cold fusion" by quibbling with a particular theory of "cold fusion." In point of fact, like it or not, the only way you can deal with the objection that I am raising is to improve your procedures for measuring input power. --Mitchell Jones}*** In other words, concentrating the current does not >produce local boiling or hardly any change in the cell resistance. Of >course, if >the current is made sufficiently high, boiling can be produced but this >effect is >very obvious. > >> >> >> --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >> This can only >> >happen if the resistance of the electrolytic circuit suddenly changes. >>Small >> >changes are caused by bubble action. However, these variations are small >> >and of >> >relative low frequency. How could spikes be made of intense magnitude and >> >of such >> >short duration to be missed by the DA circuit? >> >> ***{As noted above, your sampling frequency would apparently render you >> vulnerable to large spikes that had very low frequencies--anything greater >> than 3 Hz, conservatively speaking. What I would expect, however, would be >> very small spikes of both current and voltage at very high frequencies, as >> I explain below. --MJ}*** >> >> A process which changes the >> >resistance by a large amount would be needed. >> >> ***{When a steam cloak forms over a hot spot, resistance from cathode to >> electrolyte becomes very large. Then, when the electrolyte wall approaches >> the surface close enough so that the potential difference exceeds the >> breakdown voltage, resistance will suddenly collapse and an arc will occur. >> [Note: the potential difference does not change, but the breakdown voltage >> becomes less and less as the steam cloak becomes thinner and thinner. Thus, >> eventually, the breakdown voltage is less than the potential difference, >> and an arc occurs. When that happens, there is a steam explosion at the >> point where the arc impacts the electrolyte wall, and the resulting release >> of steam thickens the steam cloak, so that the breakdown voltage is once >> again greater than the potential difference, and the cycle begins all over >> again.] --MJ}*** > >I monitor the cell resistance and the condition of the electrode surface. ***{How? --MJ}*** If an >insulating layer formed, I would see it in the over-voltage measurement. ***{I should think it would depend on how thick the layer was, and, as a consequence, on how much effect it had. We are, after all, not talking about the Mizuno cell here. There is no implication that a thick cloak of steam forms around the cell, merely that a vastly lesser degree of the same effect occurs, with the effects reduced in rough proportion. --MJ}*** No such >films form on these electrodes. ***{Only because you are making assumptions that support your belief that the excess heat is real. You assume that the steam has to be visible. You assume it has to be audible. You assume that the loss of OU numbers when the cathode falls off is insignificant. You assume that the waveform variations which you observed at LANL were insignificant. You assume that we have to be dealing with a small number of large spikes rather than vast numbers of tiny spikes. You assume that I am a biased critic who doesn't want you to succeed. You assume that significant numbers of spikes are being detected by chance under your current measuring protocol. And on and on. --MJ}*** > >> >> >> Some basic limitations exist. The >> >resistance of the supply circuit is about 0.2 ohm (mainly caused by the >> >resistance used to measure the current) and the resistance of the >>electrolytic >> >cell is about 7 ohm. No action at the cathode surface can reduce the cell >> >resistance below that of the electrolyte which, as I said, is about 7 ohm. >> >> ***{Once a resistive coating has formed over most of the cathode (or across >> most of the anode), current flow across the cell will depend on contact >> between the electrolyte and the electrode surface at the few remaining >> uncoated spots. Since all of the current must flow through those spots, >> they are going to heat up, and, when one of them gets hot enough that the >> nearby electrolyte flashes to steam, a huge jump in the resistance at that >> location will suddenly take place, and current flow at that location will >> suddenly shut down. But then, a moment later, as the liquid wall of >> electrolyte approaches the electrode surface again, another arc will occur, >> PRODUCING A CURRENT SPIKE THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE BLOCKED BY YOUR POWER >> SUPPLY, and which will, with utter certainty, produce a jagged AC waveform >> which cannot be properly dealt with by your present power metering >> procedures. (More on this below.) > >The maximum voltage is 10 V and the electrolyte resistance is 7 ohm. >Therefore, >the maximum current is 1.4 A no matter what happens at the cathode. ***{Your power supply is in constant current mode, right? If so, and if your current set-point is 1.4 amps, then the circuitry of your power supply will vary the voltage, as necessary, to maintain current at that level. Thus by ASSUMING that the resistance across the cathode-electrolyte interface is 0 ohms, you conclude that the potential difference will be adjusted to about 10 volts by the power supply. If, however, the resistance across the cathode electrolyte interface rises momentarily to, say, 1000 ohms, then total resistance at that brief instant will be 1007 ohms, and the power supply will kick the potential difference up to about 1410 volts. While I'm not saying we are going to see small numbers of big spikes, I am saying that the same unknowns about the cathode which lead you to speculate that "cold fusion" is taking place lead me to speculate that spikes are possible. You are simply assuming that the resistance between the cathode and the electrolyte is zero, rather than demonstrating it. --MJ}*** For even this >high a current to occur, a total open circuit would have to exist long >enough for >the voltage to rise to 10 V (a time which is determined by the >characteristics of >the power supply) and the current spike would only last until the voltage had >dropped to its previous value. As I said above, such local hot spots >producing >steam do not happen in cells running at the voltages used in this study. >If you >don't believe me, I suggest you talk to an electrochemist. ***{In this post, you have supported your position by making assumptions, rather than by reasoning. I don't need to talk to an electrochemist to recognize that. But since we are exchanging advice, I suggest you discuss your present power measurement procedures with Don Lancaster. I think you will be horrified by what you discover. --MJ}*** >> >> As a matter of curiosity: are your anodes and cathodes switched in and out >> of your cells as a pair, or individually? That is, when you switch an >> active cathode for an inactive one, do you switch *just* the cathode, or do >> you switch the anode as well? > >I only change the cathode. > >> > >Mitchell, This discussion is getting nowhere. You are so sure spikes are >present ***{No. I'm not sure they are present at all, if you mean small numbers of large surges in current values. If, however, you refer to large numbers of tiny current excursions, I admit that I think they may be present, and that they will give rise to an AC current waveform of the sort that your setup is not designed to handle. However, I'm not *sure* they are present even in that form. That's why I recommend that you adopt a measuring protocol that is not vulnerable to them, and begin to monitor your waveforms with a fast scope, so that the possibility will be less worrisome. --MJ}*** >that you will make up the most implausible mechanisms to justify that >belief. If >spikes are present they have to result from a process which can be analyzed in >real terms and measurements can be suggested to indicated their presence. >So far, >all aspects of your proposed mechanism are absent, except EP. Unless, I >can see >some way for the spikes to occur and have some indication of their >presence other >than EP, I am not going to invest a lot of time in a search, especially >when, as I >suspect, a failure to find them will just create another set of arguments >rather >than closure. ***{How can you say that my theory is less plausible than yours? You claim that an unknown condition of the cathode gives rise to "cold fusion." I claim that an unknown condition of the cathode may give rise either to "cold fusion" or to a false measurement of excess heat. By what logic is your view, which discounts the second possibility on the basis of arbitrary assumptions, less plausible than mine? --MJ}*** > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 11:55:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00566; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:52:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:52:45 -0800 From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <389B2E31.C4AEA9CA ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:53:21 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 04, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FajPW3.0.k8.Buocu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's New wrote: > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 4 Feb 00 Washington, DC > > 1. MIR: RUSSIAN MOVIE MOGUL PLANS SPACE THRILLER. Famed director > Yuri Kara has started work on a sci-fi flick about a cosmonaut > who refuses to leave a doomed space station. Russia has approved > a plan for actor Vladimir Steklov to travel to Mir this spring > with two cosmonauts for filming on location. Love the concept > Yuri baby, but it's like your plan is sooo five minutes ago. > Vlady has to go. This could be bigger than Titanic--it cries out > for Leonardo. You could do an Apollo-13: Leonardo and Meryl > locked in a 50-megaton goodbye kiss--she could use the work -with > Whitney on sound track. Let's talk over a skim decaf latte. > > 2. ISS: NASA IS NOT THRILLED BY RUSSIAN PLANS TO REOCCUPY MIR. > Dan Goldin is fuming at Russia's diversion of scarce resources > while the critical Service Module is two years behind schedule > and counting. The Service Module contains crew quarters as well > as a propulsion unit to keep the International Space Station in > orbit. Under heavy pressure from Congress to devise contingency > plans in case of a Russian default, NASA is scrambling to build > an Interim Control Module. It will prevent an unscheduled return > of the initial components of the giant tinker toy, but it will > not provide crew quarters. Criticism of Russia has been muted by > the fact that some of the US components are also two years behind > schedule. Meanwhile, the Monday launch of the shuttle Endeavor > on an unrelated radar mapping mission was postponed again due to > a computer problem. Already four months behind schedule, this > latest delay was another reminder that, even if the components > were available, ISS assembly will take 43 shuttle launches. > > 3. SECRETS: UNEQUAL TREATMENT IN COMPUTER DOWNLOADING CASES? In > Senate testimony yesterday, CIA director George Tenet sought to > explain why Wen Ho Lee at Los Alamos and John Deutch at the CIA > were treated so differently. There was simply no comparison, he > explained, Deutch was guilty of sloppiness in handling classified > information, while Lee meant to do harm to the United States. > Whoa! Lee has been locked up and indicted for mishandling > classified material, not espionage. Nor is anyone asking Deutch > to show in court that he acted without evil intent. > > 4. SUMMER INTERN: THE APS WASHINGTON OFFICE NEEDS A LITTLE HELP. > We're looking for a physics major with great writing skills and a > genius IQ to spend eight to ten weeks in Washington fighting the > Philistines; the dates are negotiable. We might bend a little on > the genius thing. Write opa aps.org for details. We'll need a > resume, writing sample, and two references by e-mail. Polygraph > not required, but color-coded badges are under review. We note > that recent Washington interns became both rich and famous. > > NEXT WEEK: The President's budget request to Congress will be > released on Monday. We'll tell you what it means on Friday. > > THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's > and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 12:54:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18411; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:52:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:52:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000204145247.01d3ded4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 14:52:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: References: <389A2883.D57EA65E ix.netcom.com> <38990177.36893372 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"A46Iz3.0.bV4.-lpcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:26 PM 2/4/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >As I explained yesterday, if arcing is occuring due to some unknown >condition of the cathode, there is nothing your power supply can do to >prevent current spikes. If only you had enough experience to realize that cells like Ed's don't draw current in spikes. >Now, the reason the scatter does not have to vary is simply that *all* of >your cathodes may be producing AC waveforms.... You are blowing smoke, Mitchell. This is steady-state DC electrolysis. >Bottom line: I think there is a clear problem with your procedures >for measuring input power. Obviously you have never done any measurements on electrolysis cells. There is almost certainly NO problem with his input power measurements. >First of all, the >>voltage on the cell is too small to produce an arc. > >***{False. It is too small to produce a *visible* arc. more smoke! >Second, steam formation makes a noise >>as any one who has done these experiments knows. > >***{False. It depends on how rapidly the steam is being formed. smoke piled upon older now-stale smoke. >In any case, you cannot refute my position by quibbling about the details >the theory which I tossed out solely to placate you..... Yes, but Ed can and should begin IGNORING you immediately! I've stood by watching you jerk him around needlessly long enough. He has important work to do and NONE of the ignorance-based hypotheses you have raised are going to help him at all. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 13:49:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05293; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:45:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:45:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <389AFA09.68A25D46 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:37:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"B1qnZ.0.dI1.lXqcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >Well Hank, Mitchell is complaining >> >> ***{I'm not complaining. I am trying to suggest ways to settle this >> question once and for all, so that you, and I, and others, can reach a >> solid conclusion about whether the effect is real. --MJ}*** > >As you and I both know, searching for spikes and finding none will not >settle the >issue. You and other people will find other ways to explain the results. >This is >only one small step on the road to acceptance. On the other hand, if I am >able >to make samples which produce the effect on demand, all of your prosaic models >vanish in one stroke. ***{Absolutely correct. Thus far, however, despite thousands of man-years invested, no one has succeeded in doing that. Nevertheless, I hope with all my being that you succeed. --MJ}*** Consequently, I put my time where it will do the most >good. ***{A judgment call. You may not have enough years left in your life to accomplish that, especially if the effect is not real. It might be more effective to make very, very sure your power measurements are correct, before investing that much time and effort. It is, of course, your decision. --MJ}*** If I had some indication for spikes from other measurements, as I noted >earlier, I would be more than willing to check your idea. But in the >absence of >any plausible mechanism for producing such spikes and the cost in money >and time >to check with a suitable scope, I will take a different approach. Although >this >might seem unreasonable and arbitrary to you, since you do not have to >invest any >time or money, it is very reasonable in my circumstances. > ***{When I asked Don Lancaster about the cost of going this route, way back in July, 1998, here is what he said: ******************************************* > >Rather than fancy caps, I would use modern signal processing to accurately > >measure > >the power. Taking, say, 15,000 or more identical 12-bit or higher >simultaneous > >voltage and current line locked samples per second, digitially >multiplying them > >together, THEN averaging and summing and scaling. I'd also watch the >waveforms > >for > >funny duty cycles, sparking, and stuff that would foul up the works. > > > >Either a PIC or a PC can now easily handle accurate power measurement. Tasks > >that > >were ridiculously expensive or complex (and definitely misunderstood) a year > >ago. > >Maxim has a superb new chip for this. > > ***{Unless I miss my guess, going this route would require either hitting > the books and cobbling together a hardware project, or else laying down a > thousand bucks or more for an off-the-shelf design. And even then, as you > say, I would have to buy a fast trace scope for, say, another $2,000, and > watch the waveforms. [snip] > --Mitchell Jones}*** Hitting the books, yes. Since the difference between continuous current and a half sinewave introduces an 11% underreporting error, it does not take much in the way of lumpiness or nonlinearity to get the 4% or so new error source needed to put the measurements in serious doubt. A $29 BASIC STAMP and a $50 hamfest oscilloscope would most likely work. The capacitors would probably introduce rude surprises of their own. I do have some great scopes for sale at http://www.tinaja.com/bargts01.html -- Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com ******************************************* So there you have it. He doesn't seem to think cleaning up your power measurements would put you in the poorhouse. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >> >> that I'm measuring too little noise not too much. >> >He claims that the cell is making spikes (noise) which is not seen by the >> >DA system. >> >> ***{I'm not making a claim. I'm trying to get you to address a possibility >> that you seem determined to ignore. As I see it, we have a choice: either >> some unknown condition of the cathode is giving rise to a current waveform >> that differs from your assumption of constant current by enough to produce >> a 3% undermeasurement of input power, or else some unknown condition of the >> cathode is giving rise to "cold fusion." It has become crystal clear that >> (a) your procedure for computation of input power simply multiplies your >> power-supply set point value times instantaneous voltage, as determined by >> an inappropriately low sampling rate, thereby rendering your measurement of >> input power vulnerable to variations in current, and (b) you are not >> monitoring your voltage and current waveforms with a fast scope, and thus >> you do not know whether you are dealing with a varying current waveform or >> not. Unlike you, I see this state of affairs as a problem. --MJ}*** > >I have not ignored the problem. I have only not addressed it in the way you >suggest for the reasons stated above. > >> >> >> >This means that I am missing some of the power being applied to the cell, >> >hence THINK I >> >have excess power. My problem is to measure the signel in such a way to >> >see all >> >voltages, both DC as well as the supposed spikes. If I use a scope, he >> >will claim the >> >scope is not fast enough to see the spikes. >> >> ***{The fact is that you won't know how I will react until you make some >> effort to examine the waveforms which your cell is producing, which thus >> far you have not done. If your efforts are merely token, involving some >> crappy low-speed scope which obviously is not up to the task, then I might >> continue to have misvings about your results. However, any attempt on your >> part to look at the waveform will obviously be better than no effort at >> all. --MJ}*** > >"Up to the task" is the critical statement. What, in your mind would be >up to >the task? How wide are these spikes? How many thousand dollars must I >spend on >a scope? ***{Talk to Don. This is his bailiwick, not mine. As you can see from the quote given above, he does not seem to think accurate power measurement is very expensive nowadays, due apparently to the revolutionary advances in microchip technology, and the attendant collapsing costs. The best way to find out the details, however, is to call him. --MJ}*** > >> >> If I measure the voltage and current every >> >millisec (as I have done), he will claim that it the spikes occur >>between the >> >measurements. >> >> ***{Here your prediction of how I will react is on firm ground, since I >> have already passed on to you Don Lancaster's suggestion that you should >> take several hundred simultaneous current and voltage samples per half >> cycle, when dealing with irregular waveforms. Your sampling rate of 1100 >> per second, directed at the voltage only, obviously is not up to that >> standard where the current is concerned, and would only be adequate on the >> voltage side for waveforms with a frequency under 3 Hz. --MJ}*** > >As I said before, I take all measurements, voltage and current, at about 1100 >point/sec. The data sets for voltage and current are averaged to give the >power. If I were to multiply each point to get the power, the process would take >additional time and slow down the process. ***{When I asked Don about such a procedure, almost two years ago, here is what he said: ******************************************* What you are describing is classic E.E. Student lab blunder #01-A. Average power in general is NOT the average value of the current times the average value of the voltage. Average power is the product is the summed and scaled average of the instantaneous current times the instantaneous voltage. Especially on low duty cycle waveforms, but even on sinewaves. The definition of rms is an equivalent continuous current that gives exactly the same power dissipation. Heat balance, in fact, is one common means of accurately measuring the power of strange waveforms. See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse112.pdf for a tutorial. Or any intro circuit theory book. Such as Skilling's Electrical Engineering Circuits. -- Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com ******************************************* So there you have it. --Mitchell Jones}*** I can not devote the entire DA cycle >to only measuring V and I. I have a number of temperatures to measure >also. If >I ignore the temperatures, you will argue, I suspect, that the power and the >temperature were not measured at the same time, hence a drift could be >interpreted as EP. Since you are not doing the study and have no >experience with >my DA system, I suggest you are prone to suggest solutions which are >impractical. Therefore, my failure not to follow your suggestions is not my >being stubborn but just trying to do the best job with the resources at hand. ***{A reasonable goal, no doubt, though not easy to accomplish.:-) --MJ}*** >> >> How would you solve the problem? >> >> ***{You obviously don't agree that there *is* a problem! In your opinion, >> an unknown condition of the cathode which results in more energy coming out >> of the system than is flowing into the system is perfectly plausible, >> whereas an unknown condition of the cathode that might give rise to a >> violation of your assumption of constant current is simply out of the >> question! Naturally, since such a possibility is utterly out of the >> question, actually putting a fast scope on the cell and examining the >> current waveform would be a waste of time and money! In response to such an >> attitude, what can I possibly say? --MJ}*** > >You can say that the possibility exists for the claimed nuclear reaction being >real, that some patterns of behavior have no other rational explanation, >and that >while you can suggest prosaic possibilities, they generally do not fit >well with >the experimental facts. Nevertheless, it is worth exploring such >possibilities >and you would help in this search by making reasonable, practical and useful >suggestions while maintaining an open mind. That is what you can say. Is >this >too much to ask? Such an approach would make a collaboration worthwhile >for both >of us. ***{I will assist you in any way I can, Ed. Believe it or not, I *want* you to succeed. What you may perceive as undue skepticism on my part stems from a lifetime of experience and thought that have led me inexorably toward a very simple conclusion: reality doesn't give a hoot in hell what I, or you, or anyone, wants to believe. Like it or not, truth has one characteristic and one characteristic only: it is the opinion that stubbornly remains standing, irrespective of the seeming strength of the arguments that you hurl against it. Thus if you are right, you will prevail, and if you are wrong, you will not. It's as simple as that. --MJ}*** > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 14:05:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14378; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:03:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:03:47 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:08:45 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4U29e2.0.OW3.1pqcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, If these people are doing real work to make a viable product, then 800+ K is low. If they can get to demo stage on that then they are minding their nickles and dimes. This sort of thing is NOT cheap. If you did NOTHING else, bought no equipment, no supplies and rented no space.... then 800k MIGHT get you 8 good people ... for one year... but no paper clips or coffee either. On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Dan - > > Don't know if that's normal in general, but it might be if they're after > more financing at this point, or merger/buyout, etc. Speculative. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > on 2/3/00 9:41 PM, Dan Quickert at dequickert ucdavis.edu wrote: > > > Rick, > > > > This company looks interesting - but... if I'm reading it right, the > > information at: > > http://www.secinfo.com/dr4ur.63W9.htm (an SEC filing) > > indicates that only about 10% of their expenses are for R&D ($8,763,000 / > > $835,000) - is this normal for a research/technology company that doesn't have > > mature products yet? > > > > Dan Quickert > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 14:59:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32348; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:50:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:50:40 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <26.16e4ec9.25ccb196 aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:49:58 EST Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"B99233.0.Mv7.0Vrcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/4/00 12:54:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: <> > Yes, but Ed can and should begin IGNORING you immediately! I've stood by > watching you jerk him around needlessly long enough. He has important work > to do and NONE of the ignorance-based hypotheses you have raised are going > to help him at all. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > Yes indeed Scott! This back and forth is beginning to resemble the crap on SPF where an endless "debate" has been going on about virtual He leaks "into" a Case type cell pressurized to 50 psi or so ! I used a 300 MHz scope on an electrolysis cell about 5 years ago, cell voltage ~10 VDC, and there were NO "spikes" seen at all, just a smooth variation +- 50 millivolts as bubbles formed on the electrodes. Let the dusty bones of the dead horse rest in peace Mitchell. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 15:54:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20895; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:51:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:51:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000204145247.01d3ded4 mail.eden.com> References: <389A2883.D57EA65E ix.netcom.com> <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:48:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"XZbaL3.0.P65.rNscu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 12:26 PM 2/4/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>As I explained yesterday, if arcing is occuring due to some unknown >>condition of the cathode, there is nothing your power supply can do to >>prevent current spikes. > >If only you had enough experience to realize that cells like Ed's don't >draw current in spikes. > >>Now, the reason the scatter does not have to vary is simply that *all* of >>your cathodes may be producing AC waveforms.... > >You are blowing smoke, Mitchell. This is steady-state DC electrolysis. ***{Blowing smoke? Are you suggesting that I feel that I am caught in a logical corner, and am trying to create a diversion so no one will notice? If so, I suggest that you leave the psychiatry to the psychiatrists and address your comments to the substantive contents of my messages. Concerning the question of whether this is steady-state DC electrolysis, I would note that the "spikes" Ed and I have been discussing were not defined with respect to magnitude or frequency. Thus if you are imagining some sort of huge, low frequency phenomenon, you are missing my point. The current variations I have in mind need only be sufficient to disrupt the efforts of Ed's power supply to hold a steady DC current. If they do that, then Ed will find himself attempting to measure AC power using a protocol that is only suitable for measuring DC, and, in that case, he will find that a 3% undermeasurement is not at all surprising. Indeed, I am surprised that you, of all people, would have such faith in the ability of Ed's power supply to hold current at the set-point he selected, given that the scope pictures which you recently posted at http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html demonstrate conclusively that your own power supply fails miserably to hold voltage at the set-point which you selected. Given the undulations of your voltage about the set point, I should think you would not be surprised if Mizuno, using a power measurement protocol similar to Ed's, were to undermeasure his input power as well. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >>Bottom line: I think there is a clear problem with your procedures >>for measuring input power. > >Obviously you have never done any measurements on electrolysis cells. There >is almost certainly NO problem with his input power measurements. ***{If both Ed and Mizuno were using a Clarke-Hess, like you, that might be so. However, if Mizuno is using a power measuring protocol similar to Ed's, and if his voltage varies around his set-point as much as yours does, then I can see potential problems. --MJ}*** > >>First of all, the >>>voltage on the cell is too small to produce an arc. >> >>***{False. It is too small to produce a *visible* arc. > >more smoke! ***{Rubbish. In fact, your assertion of "more smoke!" is just smoke. You have supplied, thus far, nothing resembling an argument to back up anything you have said. Until you do so, you are just a noise in cyberspace, signifying nothing. To assist you in arguing your position, let me ask you a specific question: if you believe that all arcs must be large enough to be visible, why do you believe it? --MJ}*** > >>Second, steam formation makes a noise >>>as any one who has done these experiments knows. >> >>***{False. It depends on how rapidly the steam is being formed. > >smoke piled upon older now-stale smoke. ***{Yet another empty assertion, signifying nothing. Here is a second question for you: if you believe that all steam emission must be accompanied by audible sound, why do you believe it? --MJ}*** > >>In any case, you cannot refute my position by quibbling about the details of >>the theory which I tossed out solely to placate you..... > >Yes, but Ed can and should begin IGNORING you immediately! I've stood by >watching you jerk him around needlessly long enough. He has important work >to do and NONE of the ignorance-based hypotheses you have raised are going >to help him at all. ***{Each person in this group is free to make his decisions about such matters without advice from others, Scott, and we all do so every day. Indeed, I constantly find myself wondering why other people choose to argue about things that seem obvious to me, but, unlike you, it would never cross my mind to issue unsolicited public advice about whom they should or should not ignore. The fact that you choose to violate this rather obvious rule of etiquette suggests to me that you are *personally* disturbed by the discussion Ed and I have been having, rather than merely because you feel protective of Ed. Since you have opened the door to psychiatric speculations, here is my speculation about what is going on in your mind: my guess is that you suffer the tortures of the damned when arguing with me, because you have found that it is very difficult to defeat my reasoning, and you think that fact makes you look bad. Your primary focus, in other words, is not on what you can learn from a discussion, but on how it makes you appear in the eyes of others. Result: when you see someone else struggling to defeat my reasoning, you assume that they are suffering, and you are motivated to jump in and "save" them. The true motive, however, is not protectiveness, but an unseemly desire to end the agony which *you* feel, as you imagine yourself in their shoes. Thus you want to stop the discussion somehow, so you will not have to be tormented any longer. If that speculation hits close to home, here is some advice: stop focusing on how you look in a discussion, and start focusing on how much you can learn. Recognize that nobody can make you look bad, if you make a persistent and well-mannered attempt to state your case, even if you are eventually proven wrong. If you will cultivate that kind of attitude, the day may eventually come when you are not disturbed in the slightest, as you observe a persistent cuss such as myself, doggedly attempting to defend a position which you regard as hopeless. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 16:31:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03054; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:28:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:28:49 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:29:05 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <26.16e4ec9.25ccb196 aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iL0C-2.0.el.1xscu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Agreed, 100% also Hank PS Incidentally, to get a feeling about low duty cycle very short spikes, a scope is very tricky to use. The best way I can think of offhand is to use a signal generator to generate a fairly rapid rep rate of spikes to start with, and set up the scope to trigger reliably on them first, then connect to the device under test, turn out all the lights, pull down all the shades, and stare at the scope face for a while. If the scope has a robust trigger, you can probably change the time base to a few nanoseconds 10 to 20 say, and see if anything appears. You need lots of sheilding also, to make sure you are not just looking at a TV signal or cell-phone. On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 VCockeram aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/4/00 12:54:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com > writes: > > <> > > > Yes, but Ed can and should begin IGNORING you immediately! I've stood by > > watching you jerk him around needlessly long enough. He has important work > > to do and NONE of the ignorance-based hypotheses you have raised are going > > to help him at all. > > > > > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > > > Yes indeed Scott! This back and forth is beginning to resemble the crap > on SPF where an endless "debate" has been going on about virtual He > leaks "into" a Case type cell pressurized to 50 psi or so ! > > I used a 300 MHz scope on an electrolysis cell about 5 years ago, cell > voltage ~10 VDC, and there were NO "spikes" seen at all, just a smooth > variation +- 50 millivolts as bubbles formed on the electrodes. > > Let the dusty bones of the dead horse rest in peace Mitchell. > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram > Las Vegas Nevada > 702-254-2122 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 16:47:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07451; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:42:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:42:46 -0800 Message-ID: <389B7245.C5F498D1 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:44:09 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J53mE1.0.Gq1.68tcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, it amazes me that two people with scientific backgrounds who have been exposed to similar training can disagree so much about basic and noncontroversial aspects of nature. Is it possible that CF makes even basic agreement impossible or is it that you just like to challenge everything? Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > >While I agree, if the spike frequency were very high, my sampling rate > >would not > >see all of the spikes, hence would miss some power. However, my rate > >would not > >miss all spikes, hence would show a scatter of values which would be > >apparent in > >the measurement. The scatter when excess power is being made is no > >greater than > >when dead Pt is studied. Surely you have to agree that some difference > >should be > >seen if spikes are occurring during EP production. > > ***{No, I don't agree, but in order to explain why, I have to focus on some > details concerning the situation we may be dealing with here. Therefore, > please bear with me. I will explain why the scatter can be the same when > these needed preliminaries are out of the way. > > As I explained yesterday, if arcing is occuring due to some unknown > condition of the cathode, there is nothing your power supply can do to > prevent current spikes. All it can do is compensate for a current spike > after the fact by dropping the voltage, thereby producing a negative > current spike that is hopefully of the same size as the one caused by the > arc, so that the *average* value of the current stays at your set point, > despite the positive and negative spikes. Note, however, that under these > conditions, your assumption of constant current has been invalidated. You > are no longer dealing with DC current, but with an AC current that has an > average value which is held to your set point. Result: to obtain a proper > computation of input power, a much faster sampling rate and more complex > procedures are required. I only need to know the average power. If the current goes up and down around a set point and this fluctuation is faster than the time constant of the calorimeter, then the temperature measurements will average these fluctuations and provide an accurate relationship between applied power and temperature. Your argument, involves missing a spike which is going in one direction, in particular up in value. Consequently, I'm confused by your statement. > Under these conditions, you must take > *simultaneous* samples of both current and voltage and multiply them > together to get the power at an instant, and, since you are not dealing > with sinewaves, you must produce hundreds of such power values per > half-cycle and average them together, to ensure that you capture the true > value of power consumption during that half cycle. After doing that, you > sum the values for all of the half-cycles during the time interval, scale > the result to whatever power units you are using, and display or record the > value. Why do you have to do it this way? Because both the current and the > voltage are varying, and in an irregular fashion. Hence you cannot assume > that the power consumption in one half-cycle is the same as in another, and > you most certainly cannot assume that the current is DC and use your > set-point value over and over again, as you are apparently doing. You are saying that the voltage and current are out of phase, hence the power factor is less than unity. However, I do not see how this is possible since I have only a resistive load. > > Now, the reason the scatter does not have to vary is simply that *all* of > your cathodes may be producing AC waveforms, and, hence, all may have the > same scatter. For most of them, however, the specifics of the waveforms may > be such that the input power computations either reach a correct result due > to averaging out of the variations, or reach an erroneous result in which > input power comes out too high rather than too low. You may be erroneously > under unity sometimes and erroneously over unity at other times, and the > scatter of values within runs of the two types may be the same. All my > hypothesis requires is that an unknown condition of the cathode produces an > undermeasurement of input power. It does not preclude the existence of > similar cathode conditions that produce correct measurements or > overmeasurements. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > Of course, some scatter is present in all data from various sources. However, > if spiking is occuring and a change in the spike frequency and/or amplitude, I > should see the change in the current fluctuation. After all, you claim this > change in spiking behavior changes the amount of power I measure. That change > in power measurement must then be sensitive to the nature of the spikes. > >> > >> > >> You said: "While at LANL, we did look at the voltage with a fast scope and > >> could see no > >> evidence for voltage or current spikes of any significant magnitude. As > >>I told > >> you previously, the maximum hash on the voltage was about 50 mV. In > >> addition, the > >> current and voltage are stable to a few mA and mV." > >> > >> My response: Since you are no longer at LANL, I take the above comments to > >> mean that you have not used a fast scope to examine the waveforms produced > >> by the electrochemical cell with which you are presently working. Result: > >> you are merely guessing if you claim that there are no significant spikes > >> with frequencies above 3 Hz. I would also note that the magnitude which is > >> significant is inversely proportional to the frequency of occurrence. Thus > >> little bitty spikes of very high frequency can carry as much power as > >> larger spikes of lower frequency. > > > >The fact is that low voltage electrolytic cells simply do not show the > >effect you > >propose. Our studies al LANL merely showed that our cells of the present > >design, > >behave just like every electrochemist has learned to expect. You can not > >makeup a > >phenomena which does not exist. > > ***{To be precise, you stated that your scope results at LANL showed no > *significant* current variations, not that they showed no variations at > all. But with your sampling rates as low as they are, and with your > calculations geared to the assumption that the current waveform is DC, how > can you possibly judge whether the variations you observed were significant > or not? Bottom line: I think there is a clear problem with your procedures > for measuring input power. Until it has been eliminated, I don't think you > can justifiably conclude that the variations you observed at LANL were > insignificant. --MJ}*** Give me a break and at least acknowledge one simple reality. The hash on the voltage was less than 50 mV. This is too small to produce an effect no matter what shape the spikes might have. I sample at msec intervals. If the spikes are random, as you assume, I will be seeing a certain but unknown fraction of them. Do you at least agree about this? > > >> You said: "The voltage signals are measured using a National Instruments > >> NB-MIO-16 DA board > >> attached to a AMUX multiplexer. A MacIIfx running LabView is used to > >>take the > >> data. All data are taken under computer control." > >> > >> My response: This is excellent. It means you will be able to step up your > >> sampling frequency and perform the kind of signal processing which Don > >> recommends, in all likelihood, by merely purchasing new software. Did you > >> contact him, as I suggested, and see what he had to say? > >> > >> --Mitchell Jones}*** > >> > >> The other > >> >method would involve storing the energy of the spikes in a capacitor where > >> >their > >> >average energy can be measured as a voltage. The spikes are equivalent to > >> >pulsed > >> >DC which have a total energy defined by their magnitude and time duration. > >> >The > >> >problem is to lengthen the time duration, so that they can be measured. > >> >This can > >> >be done by storing the energy of the spike in a capacitor across the > >>measuring > >> >circuit. This does not act as a filter in the usual sense. > >> > >> ***{There is no way it can fail to do so, Ed. Capacitive reactance is given > >> by Xc = 1/2pifC. By simple inspection of this formula, it is apparent that > >> at zero frequency (DC mode) or at very low frequencies, the resistance to > >> current flow across the plates of the capacitor is infinite or very high. > >> (Assuming, of course, that the applied voltage is less than the breakdown > >> voltage of the dielectric that separates the plates of the capacitor.) > >> However, it is also clear from the formula that as the spike frequency > >> rises, the resistance to current flow across the plates of the capacitor > >> falls, and, as a result, that more and more of the applied current is going > >> to be diverted to ground, and, thus, will not be metered. The only try to > >> defeat this effect would be to use capacitors of very low capacitance, to > >> compensate for the high frequency. Unfortunately, if you do that you lose > >> the smoothing effect on the voltage spikes that you were trying to achieve. > >> For these and other reasons, this apparently simple method of using > >> capacitors to defeat spikes will not work. --MJ}*** > > > >You miss my point. If spikes are present, a capacitor would remove them. > > ***{Um, no, this is a new point. If you don't believe me, go back (above) > and and re-read the remarks, made by you, to which I was responding. You > did not speak of removing the spikes, but of "storing the energy of the > spikes in a capacitor where their average energy can be measured as a > voltage." --MJ}*** Let me clear up some confusion. The equation you quote is for an AC signal where the current alternates direction. We do not have this situation. According to your model, the pulses are all in one direction, much like what a half wave rectifier would produce. Under these conditions, the capacitor stores a charge which is related to the shape and size of the spikes. Thus, if your model is correct, the spikes will produce a DC voltage which will add to the DC already being measured by the DA. This is basic electronics which I hope we can at least agree about. On the other hand, if the spikes have both a positive and negative component, they will pass through the capacitor as you state. However, they would not add energy to the cell because they were created from the DC current and are not an AC signal being supplied from an external source. Indeed, I would want to avoid measuring them because to do so would appear to add energy. This is why capacitors are used in DA circuits to remove such distractions. > > > The > >result would be a lower measured voltage because the occasional spike > >which was > >detected by chance would no longer be present. > > ***{Given your low sampling rate, very few would be detected by chance, > and, thus, removing those few that are would probably have no discernable > effect on the measurement. --MJ}*** I do not understand why you say this. The DA circuit looks at the voltage for an interval of time, determined by the cycle time of the circuit. During that time, a spike can either be present or not. If the signal is random rather than having a set frequency, the circuit has a probability of seeing a spike which is determined partly by the average number of spikes occurring per unit time. If this number is low, many spikes will be missed but very little power will be contained in these spikes. If this number is high, then a large number will be detected and added to the applied power. Which extreme do you propose is operating in my case? > > > However, if no change were seen, > >one could conclude that few spikes were present. > > ***{Or else, as would be more reasonable, one could conclude that few had > been detected by chance before the capacitor was introduced. --MJ}*** As I said above, if many are missed by chance, then very few are present, hence the effect will be small. > > >> > >> Granted, the > >> >capacitor looks like a low resistance load to the spike. However, this is > >> >because > >> >the capacitor is storing the charge within the spike and in the process > >> >acquiring > >> >a small DC voltage, which can be measured. Granted, some of the energy > >>of the > >> >spike will be lost in the resistance of the wiring so that an exact > >>measure of > >> >spike energy could be not obtained. > >> > >> ***{One problem is that at high spike frequencies the capacitor acts like a > >> bypass filter, and diverts most of the spike energy to ground, before it > >> can reach the meter. Another problem is that capacitors smooth voltage, not > >> current. Hence to the extent that you are dealing with current spikes that > >> are too fast for the current control circuit in your power supply, a > >> capacitor would be useless anyway. (More on this below.) --MJ}*** > > > >Current is measured by measuring a voltage. The same argument applies to this > >voltage. > > ***{No it doesn't. Voltage and current are independent variables. The > classical definition of capacitance, in fact, is "that property of an > electric circuit which opposes any change in the voltage across that > circuit." [*Principles of Electricity*, by Eugene Key, pg. 110] The point > is that placing a capacitor across the leads to your cell will stabilize > the voltage, but will not stabilize the current. In fact, the presence of > such a capacitor would interfere with the efforts of the power supply to > control the current by varying the voltage, and might actually *increase* > the magnitude of the current spikes. --MJ}*** If you give this argument a little thought rather than always trying to make your case, you will discover that a capacitor across the resistor used to measure the current will actually help the power supply counteract any spikes. The capacitor will appear to a high frequency spike to have a lower resistance than the resistor, provided the spike is not unidirectional. Hence, a larger voltage will appear at the feed back circuit in the power supply. If the spike is unidirectional, its integrated charge will add to the DC voltage being measured. > > >> > >> However, if a significant voltage increase is > >> >observed by placing such a capacitor in the circuit, evidence for important > >> >spiking would be obvious. Of course, the reverse would also be true. > >> > > >> >I have to ask, "what process would produce such voltage spikes"? > >> > >> ***{Parallel questions would be "What process would produce excess heat?" > >> or "What process would alter the thermal conductivity of the outer wall of > >> the cell?" Since you are evidently perfectly comfortable with the lack of > >> clear-cut answers to those questions, I would suggest that you ought to be > >> equally comfortable in the absence of a clear-cut answer to the one about > >> spikes, whether of the current or voltage variety. > > > >I can see a layer on the wall. That is very clear cut. I do not know what > >process produces heat in my cell but I know it is present. > > ***{What you know is that when you subtract power in from power out, there > is a 3% excess. Whether that excess is due to an undermeasurement of input > power, or to the presence of real excess heat, is something you will not > know until you begin to measure your input power in a manner that is not > vulnerable to variations in the current waveform. --MJ}*** Perhaps, but I see no way I can do this and satisfy all conceivable attacks. I will just have to produce enough EP to overwhelm these objections. Of course, I have produced up to 7.5 watts before and this has had no effect on current attitudes. I find an objection s made no matter what the observation. > > The > >idea of spikes being present is only an idea which has very little physical > >basis. > > ***{If by "spikes" you refer to variations in the supposedly constant > current waveform, I don't know whether you are right or not. The reason: > you did not say there were no variations when you looked at the current > waveform in a similar experiment at LANL. Instead, you said the observed > variations were not significant. Your wording suggests to me that > variations were present, and that you are employing your subjective > judgment to dismiss them. Since I have no way of knowing whether your > judgment in this matter is accurate, I would prefer that you begin to > employ a measuring protocol that would not be vulnerable to such > variations, so that I could feel some confidence that you do, in fact, have > excess heat. I recognize, of course, that you will do what you prefer, > rather than what I prefer. --MJ}*** So, if I get a scope it needs to have a way to record the screen so that you can see it. Do I understand you correctly? > >> > >> I can, of course, offer speculative answers to the question about spikes, > >> just as in the past I have offered speculative answers to the questions > >> about excess heat. For example, I would suggest that there may be a steam > >> cloak over hot spots on your cathode, due to the presence of a resistive > >> coating elsewhere. I would propose that those hot spots are small and that > >> the steam cloak over them is thin enough to not be visible to the naked > >> eye, as is the resistive coating elsewhere, and that because the current > >> flow is concentrated in the hot spots, arcing occurs there, in much the > >> same way that it occurs in the Mizuno cell. In that case, the current flow > >> from cathode to electrolyte is due in part to high frequency current > >> spikes, rather than to DC current flow, and hence is of the sort that could > >> lead to undermeasurement of input power. Since only about 3% of the power > >> needs to be accounted for in this way, I have no problem with this > >> explanation from a plausibility standpoint. > > > >Unfortunately, it is only plausible to someone who has no experience with > >electrochemistry and who is desperate to explain the EP. > > ***{It is inappropriate for you to speculate about events in my stream of > consciousness. For the record, I am quite sure that I want your excess heat > to be real *far more* than you do, because I do not merely see vast and > beneficial implications for myself personally in that case, but I also see > enormously positive implications for the future evolution of the human > species. Nevertheless, however much I may want your conclusion to be true, > wishing will not make it so, and thus far you have not supplied proof. > --MJ}*** I'm sorry to speculate about your behavior. However, I have discussed this subject with you sufficiently to see some patterns, just as you have observed patterns in my attitude. I have discussed this subject with other people who are more willing to acknowledge that their ideas might be wrong and change their minds when I present plausible arguments. I do not find this behavior in your case. I can only assume that you really do not want CF to be real for reasons based on emotion rather than logic. As you have said before, if it is real it will destroy all we know about physics. I would think that would be a pretty good reason not to be willing to believe in spite of what you say above. > > > First of all, the > >voltage on the cell is too small to produce an arc. > > ***{False. It is too small to produce a *visible* arc. But, since I > explicitly stated that the arcs I had in mind were to small to be visible, > that is not a problem. --MJ}*** For an arc to form, the voltage gradient must exceed a value necessary to pull electrons out of energy levels within the solid. The voltage at the cathode surface is no more than 2 V referenced to the boundary layer in which the chemical reactions are occurring. Most of the voltage is lost in passing through the electrolyte. I would feel more interested in your model if you could show me examples of sparks being made at such a low voltage. Placing two metals in contact does not count because of local melting at the contact point. > > > My power supply limits the > >voltage to below 10 V no matter what happens in the cell. This is not like the > >Mizuno cell where the voltage is very high. > > ***{Actually, this notion of a maximum of 10 volts is false. (See below.) > But even if it were true, all that it would mean would be that the arcs > would be much smaller, not that they will not be present at all. In fact, > there will probably be thousands of them, moving about like a herd of tiny > cattle on the surface of the electrode, and giving rise to parallel swings > in the current waveform, despite the efforts of your power supply to hold > things exactly constant. As I noted yesterday, vast numbers of tiny arcs > would have the same implications with regard to power measuring errors as > would small numbers of large ones. --MJ}*** The notion is not false which you would know if you actually used power supplies. The power supply has a voltage clamp which is set at 10 V. No matter what happens in the cell, no more than 10V can be delivered to the load. Lets suppose this herd is present. At any moment in time, the perturbation of a dead short to the electrolyte or a complete open circuit is totally swamped out by the surface which is not experiencing this effect. Frankly, I just do not believe your model is consistent with physical processes. > > > Second, steam formation makes a noise > >as any one who has done these experiments knows. > > ***{False. It depends on how rapidly the steam is being formed. I stated > explicitly that the steam layer I had in mind was so thin as to be > invisible on the cathode. I would expect it to be inaudible as well. (How > can you object? You assume that your supposed "cold fusion" is invisible > and inaudible as well!) --MJ}*** When steam forms, it does so at active sites after excess energy has been applied to the spot. It is not an equilibrium process. So when the gas bubble starts to form, a minor explosion results as the excess energy is converted to steam. At 20°, an equilibrium steam layer is unstable and impossible to form except under nonequilibrium conditions, conditions which produce noise. I admire your ability to manufacture variations on nature, but I would like you models to at least be consistent with common experience > > ***{So you continue to get excess heat even after the cathode falls off of > the lead wire? Now *that* is a surprise! Indeed, as I think about it, it > must be false. You said, after all, that when you switch an active cathode > for an inactive one, the effect goes away. Therefore, when you refer to > "hardly any change, include changes that are large enough to make the > excess heat go away! Need I point out that, in this discussion, that is > *not* a trivial change? I did not say I get excess heat after the cathode falls off. I said that when the cathode falls off, there is very little change in the behavior of the system. I never had a sample fall off while it was making excess energy. > > ***{Only because you are making assumptions that support your belief that > the excess heat is real. You assume that the steam has to be visible. You > assume it has to be audible. Yes > You assume that the loss of OU numbers when > the cathode falls off is insignificant. No > You assume that the waveform > variations which you observed at LANL were insignificant. Yes > You assume that > we have to be dealing with a small number of large spikes rather than vast > numbers of tiny spikes. I assume that if spikes are present, they have no effect on the measurement. There can be many tiny ones whose accumulative effect is insignificant ot there can be a few big ones which fall into the category of noise. > You assume that I am a biased critic who doesn't > want you to succeed. My success in irrelevant. I believe you would have a hard time with your view of physics if CF turns out to be real. > You assume that significant numbers of spikes are > being detected by chance under your current measuring protocol. And on and If spikes are present, I will detect some of them. Our disagreement is whether I can detect enough to eliminate their effect. > > >> Some basic limitations exist. The > >> >resistance of the supply circuit is about 0.2 ohm (mainly caused by the > >> >resistance used to measure the current) and the resistance of the > >>electrolytic > >> >cell is about 7 ohm. No action at the cathode surface can reduce the cell > >> >resistance below that of the electrolyte which, as I said, is about 7 ohm. > >> > >> ***{Once a resistive coating has formed over most of the cathode (or across > >> most of the anode), current flow across the cell will depend on contact > >> between the electrolyte and the electrode surface at the few remaining > >> uncoated spots. Since all of the current must flow through those spots, > >> they are going to heat up, and, when one of them gets hot enough that the > >> nearby electrolyte flashes to steam, a huge jump in the resistance at that > >> location will suddenly take place, and current flow at that location will > >> suddenly shut down. But then, a moment later, as the liquid wall of > >> electrolyte approaches the electrode surface again, another arc will occur, > >> PRODUCING A CURRENT SPIKE THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE BLOCKED BY YOUR POWER > >> SUPPLY, and which will, with utter certainty, produce a jagged AC waveform > >> which cannot be properly dealt with by your present power metering > >> procedures. (More on this below.) > > > >The maximum voltage is 10 V and the electrolyte resistance is 7 ohm. > >Therefore, > >the maximum current is 1.4 A no matter what happens at the cathode. > > ***{Your power supply is in constant current mode, right? Yes > If so, and if > your current set-point is 1.4 amps, then the circuitry of your power supply > will vary the voltage, as necessary, to maintain current at that level. > Thus by ASSUMING that the resistance across the cathode-electrolyte > interface is 0 ohms, you conclude that the potential difference will be > adjusted to about 10 volts by the power supply. If, however, the resistance > across the cathode electrolyte interface rises momentarily to, say, 1000 > ohms, then total resistance at that brief instant will be 1007 ohms, and > the power supply will kick the potential difference up to about 1410 volts. No, as described above. > > While I'm not saying we are going to see small numbers of big spikes, I am > saying that the same unknowns about the cathode which lead you to speculate > that "cold fusion" is taking place lead me to speculate that spikes are > possible. You are simply assuming that the resistance between the cathode > and the electrolyte is zero, rather than demonstrating it. --MJ}*** The resistance between the cathode and the electrolyte is not zero. Various barrier layers exist. I am saying that no insulating film exists which could suddenly cause the current to go from zero to the set point. > > ***{How can you say that my theory is less plausible than yours? You claim > that an unknown condition of the cathode gives rise to "cold fusion." I > claim that an unknown condition of the cathode may give rise either to > "cold fusion" or to a false measurement of excess heat. By what logic is > your view, which discounts the second possibility on the basis of arbitrary > assumptions, less plausible than mine? --MJ}*** The electrical and chemical processes which occur in a cell are relatively well understood and are based on basic chemistry and electronics. Cold fusion should not enter into this discussion at all. The fact that that we do not understand CF has no relationship to whether we understand an electrolytic cell. I say only that I am making energy and it appears to come from a source which can not be rationalized based on our conventional understanding of an electrochemical cell. Just because you can propose processes which might explain the effect does not mean these processes are real. You need to show that the process is also consistent with known chemistry and physics. If you don't , then your models have no more weight than does the CF effect. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 17:01:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA12299; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:56:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:56:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000204185628.0192fd8c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:56:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000204145247.01d3ded4 mail.eden.com> <389A2883.D57EA65E ix.netcom.com> <38990177.36893372 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FQAck2.0.403.aKtcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:48 PM 2/4/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >the scope pictures >which you recently posted at >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html demonstrate conclusively >that your own power supply fails miserably to hold voltage at the set-point >which you selected. There you go again, using totally inapplicable examples to make your point. Quoting from the text accompanying those waveforms: "In our version of the Incandescent W experiment, we are using an "overhung" heavy-duty Variac and a full-wave silicon-diode bridge to produce a 0-240VDC supply. At present we have no filter capacitors in this power supply." In other words, there was absolutely no regulation in the power supply being used at that time. >my guess is that you >suffer the tortures of the damned when arguing with me, because you have >found that it is very difficult to defeat my reasoning, and you think that >fact makes you look bad. Don't kid yourself. I AM tortured by your arguments but it's more like the torture that a loud drunk delivers at a big party. To have a meaningful conversation you have to somehow get away from him....but, in this case, he's cornered the guy I want to talk to! >Recognize that nobody can make you look bad, if you make a >persistent and well-mannered attempt to state your case, even if you are >eventually proven wrong. Good advice. I usually make a conscious effort to adhere to that maxim. I guess it just pissed me off when I realized that, while I've been spending hours digging possibly important patterns out of Ed's data, you've done nothing but distract him with your senseless hypotheses. Why don't you join me in examining his data? That's the only source of genuine information about his results that we have. If there is a problem with his results, it is very likely that some evidence of the problem will show up in the data. If we can't find a problem in the data, we're just going to have to let the results stand as apparently valid. The next step will be replication of the results, first by Ed himself, then by other labs. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 18:08:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07581; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:03:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:03:35 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cathode materials Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:02:55 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA07549 Resent-Message-ID: <"Rbvb62.0.Hs1.sJucu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Primarily for Ed, Hi, have you sorted your past used good cathodes by %excess produced, then checked which other properties of these cathodes (both chemical and structural) follow the same trend? I realise you have already determined certain characteristics that are required in order to ensure that a cathode works at all. I am more interested in other properties that might enhance the effect in working cathodes. E.g. types, quantities and distribution of impurities. Grain size, and possibly variations in grain size across or through a cathode. Melting point of the metal. Specific Electrical and thermal resistance. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 20:43:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22849; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:36:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:36:03 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <35.ef3230.25cd02aa aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:35:54 EST Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"FgwW2.0.xa5.oYwcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, Congratulations on coming up with a new acronym, namely, EP for excess power. The phrase has been around for a long time, but I don't think I've seen the acronym used consistently in a thread before. After Jed objected to XSH a couple of years ago, I thought of using EH instead but went with the full phrase "excess heat". EP seems more precise in discussing experimental results, except perhaps when joule totals are involved. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 20:47:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27403; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:45:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:45:45 -0800 Message-ID: <20000205044539.10305.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:45:39 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"S4IZP2.0.4i6.uhwcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I beg to differ. The heater needs to make good thermal contact so that the >heat does not go up the wires rather than into the electrolyte. In >addition, I can use the exposed Pt as a crude reference electrode. Heat is >only produce by Pt when it is electrolyzed as the cathode after being >coated >with a deposited layer. The heater wire is not being electrolyzed. After >all, the anode is Pt, a situation which can not be avoided. I was worrying that the inevitable potential between ends of the Pt heater wire would cause some electrolysis. However, I now realize that this potential is probably too low in your case to electrolyze water, so it is a non-concern. Another worry, though. How do you make a sharply defined pair of ends inside the cell to define the geometry of your calibration? If you run the same Pt wire to the outside world, then you dissipate some energy in the cap and just outside it. If so, you don't know how much heat is dissipated inside the cell. Your comment about heat going up the wires makes me think you might a bit of a problem of this sort here. In principle, most of this heat should stay inside your dewer and eventually be collected by the water flowing in the cooling jacket. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 20:59:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30953; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:57:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:57:55 -0800 Message-ID: <20000205045752.28428.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Venturi mixing - if Dr. V. had had an English father To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"N4X8_1.0.YZ7.Jtwcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > There is a simple kind of mixer called a Venturi, which shaped like a "V." > It is inserted into pipes, narrowing the flow at one point only, which is > apparently enough to do the job. Despite the name, I think that this does not mix by a venturi effect (pressure reduction due to increased fluid speed, which by itself does little to mix in the absence of turbulence), but by turbulence. If it truly has a small hole, then the fluid exits as a small diameter jet into a larger diameter volume. This situation promotes breakup of the jet and turbulence. It does not guarentee turbulence, but it makes turbulence easier to get. In my experience, passing the fluid through a series of diaphragms, each with a fairly small hole, is the surest way to ensure that the fluid is mixed. I worked this out in air flow at large scale, where I could probe with thermometers. It is shocking to discover how long it takes a hot (or cold) substream to mix in laminar or weakly turbulent flow along a smooth tube. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 21:59:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18549; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:53:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:53:31 -0800 Message-ID: <389BBB41.C5F58D43 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:55:16 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <20000205044539.10305.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VjCPn2.0.cX4.Phxcu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Naturally some heat goes up all the wires but it is starting at the temperature of the electrolyte. However, if the heater is enclosed, the heat will start at a higher temperature because of the insulation the enclosure provides. The heater wires are 0.1 mm which attach to a short piece of 1 mm Pt where it passes through a glass seal. This 1 mm wire is fused to a copper wire to communicate to the outside world. This saves not having to buy a lot of Pt and the glass seal keeps the electrolyte away from the copper. In my case, all of the heat enters the dewar where it has a chance to enter the cooling jacket before it leaks out the lid, as you noted. This works well since I loose only about 2%. Ed Michael Schaffer wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >I beg to differ. The heater needs to make good thermal contact so that the > >heat does not go up the wires rather than into the electrolyte. In > >addition, I can use the exposed Pt as a crude reference electrode. Heat is > >only produce by Pt when it is electrolyzed as the cathode after being > >coated > >with a deposited layer. The heater wire is not being electrolyzed. After > >all, the anode is Pt, a situation which can not be avoided. > > I was worrying that the inevitable potential between ends of the Pt heater > wire would cause some electrolysis. However, I now realize that this > potential is probably too low in your case to electrolyze water, so it is a > non-concern. > > Another worry, though. How do you make a sharply defined pair of ends inside > the cell to define the geometry of your calibration? If you run the same Pt > wire to the outside world, then you dissipate some energy in the cap and just > outside it. If so, you don't know how much heat is dissipated inside the > cell. Your comment about heat going up the wires makes me think you might a > bit of a problem of this sort here. In principle, most of this heat should > stay inside your dewer and eventually be collected by the water flowing in > the cooling jacket. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 22:25:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27635; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:18:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:18:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000204185628.0192fd8c mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000204145247.01d3ded4 mail.eden.com> <389A2883.D57EA65E@ix.netcom.com> <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:14:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"RbZ_G.0.jl6.V2ycu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 05:48 PM 2/4/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>the scope pictures >>which you recently posted at >>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html demonstrate conclusively >>that your own power supply fails miserably to hold voltage at the set-point >>which you selected. > >There you go again, using totally inapplicable examples to make your point. ***{Actually, my remark about your scope pictures was made after the main argument was concluded, and was intended as an aside. (That intent was conveyed by the first word of the sentence, which you deleted.) More importantly, since you snipped the main argument without comment, I would say it is you, not I, who is using inappropriate examples to make his point. --MJ}*** >Quoting from the text accompanying those waveforms: "In our version of >>the Incandescent W experiment, we are using an "overhung" heavy-duty >>Variac and a full-wave silicon-diode bridge to produce a 0-240VDC >>supply. At present we have no filter capacitors in this power supply." > >In other words, there was absolutely no regulation in the power supply >being used at that time. ***{Your wording, above, is misleading. Note that "our version" is singular. Since the Mizuno experiment obviously is an incandescent W experiment, your statement implied that the above described power supply is the one you used in the Mizuno experiment, which, according to you, was an attempt at replication. Since you obviously cannot replicate Mizuno with an unregulated power supply, I assumed that the description was incomplete and that the supply was regulated. (By the way: the absence of filter capacitors does *not* imply that there was no regulation. Voltage regulation, for example, is possible with a zener diode, two transistors, and a few resistors, and current regulation can be accomplished by merely adding one more transistor.) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >>my guess is that you >>suffer the tortures of the damned when arguing with me, because you >>have found that it is very difficult to defeat my reasoning, and you think >>that fact makes you look bad. > >Don't kid yourself. I AM tortured by your arguments but it's more like >the torture that a loud drunk delivers at a big party. To have a meaningful >conversation you have to somehow get away from him....but, in this case, >he's cornered the guy I want to talk to! ***{A self-serving metaphor, but an inaccurate one: there is no corner; I am not drunk; and Ed, insofar as I am aware, has responded politely and forthrightly to everything you have sent his way. In any case, I have no interest in your attempts to extricate yourself from the implications of your earlier childish outburst. I try not to reveal my opinions about the psychological processes of others, because I have found that such discussions are usually pointless. The only reason I said what I said about you is that you fired the first shot. Now let's drop this juvenile exchange, OK? --MJ}*** > >>Recognize that nobody can make you look bad, if you make a >>persistent and well-mannered attempt to state your case, even if you are >>eventually proven wrong. > >Good advice. I usually make a conscious effort to adhere to that maxim. I >guess it just pissed me off when I realized that, while I've been spending >hours digging possibly important patterns out of Ed's data, you've done >nothing but distract him with your senseless hypotheses. ***{Jesus, what is this, jealousy? You would think we were dating the same girl, for Christ's sake! This is un-fucking-believable! --MJ}*** > >Why don't you join me in examining his data? ***{Look, Scott, you asked him for his experimental data points because that's what interested you, and he supplied them. I, on the other hand, have been delving into the aspect of his experiment that interests me--to wit: his power measurement protocol--and he has been supplying me with that information. If you don't want to talk about that, I don't give a flying fuck. To each his own. Now why don't you extend the same courtesy to me that I have extended to you? Is that really too much to ask? --MJ}*** That's the only source of >genuine information about his results that we have. ***{No it isn't. His power measurement protocol is just as genuine a part of his experiment as are his data points and calorimeter design. As long as he is interested in discussing it with me, I will pursue that line of investigation, and if I conclude, at the end, that his power measurements are accurate, I will feel that I have accomplished something important, whether you share that opinion or not. --MJ}*** If there is a problem >with his results, it is very likely that some evidence of the problem will >show up in the data. ***{That's *your* opinion as to where the achilles heel of his experiment may lie, and I don't object if you pursue it. What I cannot comprehend, unless I asume some sore of base motive such as jealousy or resentment, is why you object so strenuously to my attempting to pursue a different view of the matter. Surely you have been in this group long enough to have figured out that we all pursue our own interests and priorities here! --MJ}*** If we can't find a problem in the data, we're just >going to have to let the results stand as apparently valid. ***{I repeat: that's your opinion. I, on the other hand, am not yet satisfied that there is no problem with the power measurement. Note, however, that I am not demanding that you abandon your concerns and begin pursuing mine, and I am not describing your analysis as a "wild hypothesis flood" or as "senseless hypotheses!" The question is, what in the hell is the matter with you today, anyway? Is your wife making you sleep on the couch? Did your daughter turn up pregnant? Did your mistress run off with the mailman? --MJ}*** The next step >will be replication of the results, first by Ed himself, then by other labs. > > > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 05:52:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30182; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:51:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:51:11 -0800 Message-ID: <003c01bf6fe8$518db340$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Vortex-L Topics & Ante Up Time Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 06:49:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"MtZpU3.0.UN7.Fh2du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Time to Ante Up Folks. :-) Bill Beaty's Address is Below > > The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional > research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous > energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and > Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any > anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free > energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection, > and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims. Please see the rules below. > This is a public, lightly-moderated list. Interested parties are welcome > to subscribe. PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE SUBSCRIBING. There is no > charge, but donations towards expenses are accepted (see rules below for > suggested donation.) > > Admin addr: vortex-L-request eskimo.com > > Mail addr: vortex-L eskimo.com > > Webpage: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html > > Moderator: billb eskimo.com > William J. Beaty > 7040 22nd Ave NW > Seattle, WA 98117 > 206-781-3320 USA > > ************************************************************************* > Vortex-L subscription instructions: > > To subscribe, send a *blank* message to: > vortex-L-request eskimo.com > Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. No > quotes around "subscribe," of course. You will get an automatic > greeting message in response. Once subscribed, send your email to > vortex-L eskimo.com. > > Unsubscribe: > > To unsubscribe, send a blank message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com > with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line. > > Vortex-L digest mode: > > If you prefer "digest" mode messages, collections of messages up to > 40K total or every 2 days, then subscribe to the vortex-digest > instead of to vortex-L. Send a blank message to: > vortex-digest-request eskimo.com > Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. > Vortex-L forwards each received message within minutes or hours of > receipt. Vortex-digest collects messages, then sends them as single > large chunks. Vortex-L and Vortex-digest are two separate lists. It is > possible to subscribe to one or the other, or both. > > Help: > To obtain a copy of this file, send a blank email with the word > "help" in the subject line. Send it to vortex-L-request eskimo.com > > 1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider > making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses. If you > cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway. If you > would like to give more, please do! Direct your check to the > moderator, address above. Any help you can give is sincerely > appreciated. > > 2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and > namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. The tone > should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. > Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having > some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave > in disgust. But if your mind is open, hop on board! Help us test > "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away. > (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of skepticism, see ZEN AND > THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin, on WEIRD SCIENCE page.) > > 3. Small email files please. The limit is set to 40K right now, those > exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty. If you wish to > start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange > initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL > IMMEDIATELY. Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for > received email. Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John > Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing. > FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 06:02:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00695; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 06:01:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 06:01:33 -0800 Message-ID: <004101bf6fe9$c4bc4880$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: CF/OU or a Thermoelectric "Heat Pump" Effect? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:00:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6FA6.A8B742E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"-X05z2.0.iA.zq2du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6FA6.A8B742E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cooling-electronics.com/Resources/EC_Articles/SEP96/sep96_04.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6FA6.A8B742E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Electronics Cooling an introduction to thermoelectric coolers.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Electronics Cooling an introduction to thermoelectric coolers.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cooling-electronics.com/Resources/EC_Articles/SEP96/sep96_04.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cooling-electronics.com/Resources/EC_Articles/SEP96/sep96_04.htm Modified=603D5E7BE96FBF018E ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6FA6.A8B742E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 07:12:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27087; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:11:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:11:35 -0800 Message-ID: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 08:13:20 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c8R-52.0.4d6.cs3du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The problem with trying to find "good" palladium involves finding just such a pattern you are seeking. Unfortunately, many variables contribute to producing active metal, many of which have not been analyzed. As many people in the past have discovered when trying to improve any property of a material, a great deal of money and time are required. Such time and money have not been available to this field. However, several things can be said. Certain batches have a much high success rate than others. These "good" batches seem to have low oxygen and carbon contents but may be impure with respect to other metals. A few batches containing small amounts of boron have been active but not all. Grain size seems to have no effect although annealing, which increases grain size among other things, improves loading. Surface impurity seems to be important in both improving and destroying the effect. To make matters worse, palladium as a metal is very inhomogeneous in all its properties. Normally this is not a problem in most applications. Indeed, just bending the metal introduces large numbers of dislocations which can provide sites for cracking after loading. This one property alone makes a study very complex. The bottom line is no clear pattern has been found, only a few procedures which improve success once a good batch is delivered almost by accident. However, we now can test material to see if it might be active without spending months of calorimetry. If this problem is ever to be solved, a large amount of money and the cooperation of palladium manufactures will be required. Until then, we use good luck and intuition for the search. Ed Storms Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Primarily for Ed, > > Hi, have you sorted your past used good cathodes by %excess produced, then > checked which other properties of these cathodes (both chemical and > structural) follow the same trend? > I realise you have already determined certain characteristics that are > required in order to ensure that a cathode works at all. I am more > interested in other properties that might enhance the effect in working > cathodes. > E.g. types, quantities and distribution of impurities. > Grain size, and possibly variations in grain size across or through a > cathode. > Melting point of the metal. > Specific Electrical and thermal resistance. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 07:16:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28231; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:14:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:14:53 -0800 Message-ID: <20000205151419.80204.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.130] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: My Contribution Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:14:19 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Y3bpj.0.1v6.jv3du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks, I will be most glad to contribute to this forum but this forum has yet to contribute much to me except put downs. My work is directly related to the very core subject of this list yet has revceived the least interest due to the high profile interest of most who "click" this list. Here is my latest and things are progressing very well on my list. New data found at the Max Plank Institute backing up my concept and and I have an invite to do workshop on Whirlpower with Callum Coats. Whirlpower is unique. We have built the first whirlpools ever built by man and will have the first live whirlpool on line very soon. Why man has never built a whirlpool before as I have stated here time and time again has to be the largest gap in scientific exploration of all time. And even more astounding, why those who should be most interesed show no interest is very difficult for me to understand. History shows us this pattern time and time again. If we use history as a teacher one would be most keen on checking out what has been put down and laughed at and ignored the most. Any new folks here can see this very clearly in the archive. God bless the archive. I would like to get a few votes on the Whirlpower Declaration from this list. All this means is you too now see the common sense in building a whirlpool even if just to supply science with this unknown data, Whirlpower or not. It is about getting an unbiased scientific test the way real science is supposed to be done, by the scientific method, theorists propose, scientists dispose. Thank you for your votes and consideration. Invitations are open to my list. If you want to help, come on over. David ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Press Release Whirlpower Declaration Feb 5 2000 To Build A Whirlpool To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern: >From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group: This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool built and tested by science. After considerable research it has been shown that a whirlpool has never been built by man before. It is our opinion that one should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general public. The research on this goes back several years on the internet by myself and many, many, years by several people on this list. This information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower Declaration stating the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way that it will generate electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean water in the process! Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving the pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by the pollution and danger of current energy sources. This is not a request for cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however those interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help support our efforts. Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature. This pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar system, the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic. It is seen in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence. Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the world we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few years ago. Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs. Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest of this new understanding and predicted many of the discoveries long before they were announced. Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter (Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall), and the slowing down of the speed of light are all predicted by the relative density displacement basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the fluid nature of space. Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has weathered the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are finally starting to see the possibility. All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a scientific manner. We are asking any and all who may be interested to try it. Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have built several small models that show the action I have described, and we have other tests of principle models by people in our group. We are working on building our next whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on this has been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort and available for all to use. Please help us if you can. All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are some of the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science. We welcome any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being. Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments. Thank you for your consideration, David G. Dennard 655 Doyle LN Dixon Ca USA 95620 http://www.whirlpower.cc daviddennard hotmail.com whirlpower egroups.com Contact Phone 707-678-0402 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study of Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of interest by many mainstream scientists. I guess it's just a bit too revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some. You don't have to have a string of qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with a huge scientific breakthrough. The guy who thought up the theory of plate tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right. So don't be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your vision, David, you may well have the last laugh. I hope you get the scientific support you deserve Bill Bimson Senior Experimental Officer Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre Univerity of Liverpool L69 3BX England ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago when I first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger. I have an active and avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up the challenge to further my understanding in this most intriguing of ideas. I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end I see lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the Whirlpower theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth, extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations. Neil Simmonds nsimmonds yahoo.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am studying vortex motion. This could also apply to vortices driven by gravity. I have looked at your site. You have my full support. Richard Cheney RichardCHENEY leggott.ac.uk +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in large scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test Whirlpower soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary details. I will also try to help any other person that tries to do the same. And as an ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness person or what ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with the Whirlpower ideas! Curt Hallberg Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html http://www.newphys.se qrt.o.tina swipnet.se ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ As theories get more complex,the more the parameters of what will be significant is determined by existing theory... ...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data and an alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a new paradigm is acknowledged. Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are necessary for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also helps to build an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in the old theory. An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same (this is after all what this site and many others try to do) Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can afford to throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a whirlpool effect. Andre aw49 pixie.co.za ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics bashing. He is truely on to something most of those best minds could only say poo or huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out. What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE! I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN THIS!! I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want to admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE! ...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable once the process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle the vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different ways (ha.haa) - Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple WhirlPower!, but I can feel it works / Big time / the Bigger the better!! steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall ekwall2 diac.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David, from time to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought, questioning the amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the vortex. But then my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David really is on to something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system has potential. It surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as impossible. Just think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on their first flying machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David, but now airplanes are a major means of transportation! My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work, but my intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a physicist, I do not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior to be able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal etc. David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other people say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams. Edward Maesen http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine, Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern. One has to see it to understand it. Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have a spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts. This more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside. David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool / hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this spiral form has two components. As he says it, "that of chaos and order, and how the sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that drags a huge donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from Nature, The God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to whirlpools". The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's dream into reality. Cédric Mannu cmannu eternite.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way in the three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met with much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that this theory would not work. Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a huge whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond the surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one must understand the nature of gravity. Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that somebody builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the nature of the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists and researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the universe, and the role gravity has in it. I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower I put together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc David Hubbard dhubcal i-cafe.net ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious R&D, I myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do vote for serious research on David's whirlpool technology. Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any scientist not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then! To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is still flat! Hector D Perez ARK RESEARCH arkresearch hotmail.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a novelist, a writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human nature and the study thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce to the experts and authorities, i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla. I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious in his fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity of the highest order. Ironically, this concept has been presented to him much in the same manner as Einstein's "theorems", purportedly gleaned in a Theta state. At the advent of the 21st century, it would certainly be prudent for "modern" science to exercise a more flexible attitude and approach as we reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, will we - as a collective whole - (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to perhaps glimpse and perceive The raison d'être. I definitely encourage further in-depth exploration of THE WHIRLPOOL THEORY. Carole Fox-Breeding aka Marguerite McCall Las Vegas, Nevada Author--The Heiresses Angel Trilogy Series ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 07:44:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06854; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:41:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:41:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000205103816.007b8d70 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:38:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <35.ef3230.25cd02aa aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hrqj_1.0.vg1.6J4du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:35 PM 2/4/00 EST, Tstolper aol.com wrote: >Ed, > >Congratulations on coming up with a new acronym, namely, EP for excess power. > The phrase has been around for a long time, but I don't think I've seen the >acronym used consistently in a thread before. > >After Jed objected to XSH a couple of years ago, I thought of using EH >instead but went with the full phrase "excess heat". EP seems more precise >in discussing experimental results, except perhaps when joule totals are >involved. > >Tom Stolper XSH, or excess enthalpy, or excess energy, is probably better. This is because power is the time-derivative, and can be .: be inaccurate unless calculated as XSH/delta-T but over a sufficient delta-T. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 07:45:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07250; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:42:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:42:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000205103846.007b75c0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:38:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cathode materials In-Reply-To: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wUHmh1.0.Cn1.ZJ4du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unless each sample is measured for its output at the peak of the optimal operating point (OOP), one cannot judge differences between samples -- despite the several good points brought up by Edmund. Also, unless good engineering principles and OOPs are used, luck and intuition must be relied upon and probably not sufficient for the task. Mitchell Swartz At 08:13 AM 2/5/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >The problem with trying to find "good" palladium involves finding just such a >pattern you are seeking. Unfortunately, many variables contribute to >producing active metal, many of which have not been analyzed. As many people >in the past have discovered when trying to improve any property of a >material, a great deal of money and time are required. Such time and money >have not been available to this field. However, several things can be said. >Certain batches have a much high success rate than others. These "good" >batches seem to have low oxygen and carbon contents but may be impure with >respect to other metals. A few batches containing small amounts of boron >have been active but not all. Grain size seems to have no effect although >annealing, which increases grain size among other things, improves loading. >Surface impurity seems to be important in both improving and destroying the >effect. To make matters worse, palladium as a metal is very inhomogeneous in >all its properties. Normally this is not a problem in most applications. >Indeed, just bending the metal introduces large numbers of dislocations which >can provide sites for cracking after loading. This one property alone makes >a study very complex. > >The bottom line is no clear pattern has been found, only a few procedures >which improve success once a good batch is delivered almost by accident. >However, we now can test material to see if it might be active without >spending months of calorimetry. If this problem is ever to be solved, a >large amount of money and the cooperation of palladium manufactures will be >required. Until then, we use good luck and intuition for the search. > >Ed Storms > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> Primarily for Ed, >> >> Hi, have you sorted your past used good cathodes by %excess produced, then >> checked which other properties of these cathodes (both chemical and >> structural) follow the same trend? >> I realise you have already determined certain characteristics that are >> required in order to ensure that a cathode works at all. I am more >> interested in other properties that might enhance the effect in working >> cathodes. >> E.g. types, quantities and distribution of impurities. >> Grain size, and possibly variations in grain size across or through a >> cathode. >> Melting point of the metal. >> Specific Electrical and thermal resistance. >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 10:28:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30929; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:26:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:26:49 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <26.1788d4d.25cdc540 aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:26:08 EST Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"e2bLd1.0.BZ7.fj6du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/4/00 10:25:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net writes: <> > Scott wrote: > If we can't find a problem in the data, we're just > >going to have to let the results stand as apparently valid. > > MJ replies: > ***{I repeat: that's your opinion. I, on the other hand, am not yet > satisfied that there is no problem with the power measurement. Note, > however, that I am not demanding that you abandon your concerns and begin > pursuing mine, and I am not describing your analysis as a "wild hypothesis > flood" or as "senseless hypotheses!" The question is, what in the hell is > the matter with you today, anyway? Is your wife making you sleep on the > couch? Did your daughter turn up pregnant? Did your mistress run off with > the mailman? --MJ}*** Mitchell, you are WAY out of line with the above. Please try to keep it civil. A snippet of Vortex rules below to remind you: 2. This is NOT the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open, hop on board! Help us test "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away. (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of skepticism, see ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin, on WEIRD SCIENCE page.) Respectfully, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 BTW, I don't agree with any of the points you have raised, but then, that's just my opinion. VC From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 11:36:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20109; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:33:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:33:37 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000205143253.007a3cc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:32:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Canadian World Domination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"htV8M1.0.7w4.Hi7du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Reorganizing a New World Society of Canucks to suit our kindly, peace-loving, and diabolical aims." See the unstoppable! http://www.standonguard.com - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 12:14:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00538; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:12:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:12:31 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:12:17 -1000 Subject: Re: Manhattan Scientifics micro fuel cell news From: Rick Monteverde To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZO93I.0.98.kG8du" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - Right, 800K is cheap. TOO cheap maybe. But the real question being asked is why is there also $8.76 *MILLION* being spent on not on research, but on "overhead"? What other stuff would a company not selling anything yet need to blow 8.7 mil on? Giant executive salaries or a company plane? Blunderous moves that indicate incompetent management? That's the warning flag. There could be a reasonable explanation given specific circumstances, but I don't know what they are yet. I was much more interested in the tech than in the financial viability of the company itself or as an investment. Such a high stock price for a nothing company indicates further in favor of my belief that the general public is still *very* interested in throwing large sums of money at anything that appears to yield some sort of energy related breakthrough. I should note that this does probably have a big spin angle from the idea of the deployment of small fuel cells in wireless high tech devices, which are very hot in investing right now, but the interest is confirmed in the price of Plug Power, which is likewise in the stratosphere for no fundamental financial reason. This should be good news for those engaged in actual CF or other long shot research, and having to confront the constant rubbishings they get from so many people, the newsgroups, general media, etc. I don't plan to invest any money with them in any case, so it was not the focus of my post, but Dan rightly pointed out these facts in case anyone else might have been giving that some consideration. Startups are very risky and most fail, or at least stumble along badly for some time before taking off if they survive at all. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI on 2/4/00 12:08 PM, John Schnurer at herman antioch-college.edu wrote: > > > Dear Folks, > > If these people are doing real work to make a viable product, then > 800+ K is low. > If they can get to demo stage on that then they are minding their > nickles and dimes. > This sort of thing is NOT cheap. If you did NOTHING else, bought > no equipment, no supplies and rented no space.... then 800k MIGHT get you > 8 good people ... for one year... but no paper clips or coffee either. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:36:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17854; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:35:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:35:40 -0800 Message-ID: <008901bf7031$955d6ea0$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Electrode Potentials and Currents in Aqueous K2CO3 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:34:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"W9nhr2.0.sM4.xMAdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: By measuring the"static" voltages and currents of the electrolysis cells, might one see a difference between Pd or Ni cathodes that produce CF/OU and those that don't? I tried a silver vs a stainless spoon in softened tap water with and without K2CO3 and was impressed by the difference. But I don't trust a digital meter as opposed to sensitive analog meters. What's your take on this Dr. Storms? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:36:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17658; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:35:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:35:00 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:34:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.20000205103846.007b75c0@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000205103846.007b75c0 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA17637 Resent-Message-ID: <"KyIfs3.0.qJ4.JMAdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:38:46 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Unless each sample is measured for its output at the >peak of the optimal operating point (OOP), one cannot >judge differences between samples -- despite the several >good points brought up by Edmund. Provided that such a point can be found for a given sample, that would seem to be a good approach. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:38:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16606; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:33:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:33:01 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:32:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA16567 Resent-Message-ID: <"2QwMN1.0.M34.TKAdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 08:13:20 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >have not been available to this field. However, several things can be said. >Certain batches have a much high success rate than others. These "good" >batches seem to have low oxygen and carbon contents but may be impure with >respect to other metals. A few batches containing small amounts of boron Have any of these "other metals" been identified (other than Boron)? >have been active but not all. Grain size seems to have no effect although >annealing, which increases grain size among other things, improves loading. Annealing would also tend to heal surface cracks wouldn't it? Rapidly melting just a thin surface layer (microwaves? - high powered laser?) might also help. >Surface impurity seems to be important in both improving and destroying the >effect. This seems to imply that catalytic "poisoning" is important. Is there any way of determining (perhaps with the aid of other groups), which impurities help, and which hinder? >To make matters worse, palladium as a metal is very inhomogeneous in >all its properties. Normally this is not a problem in most applications. >Indeed, just bending the metal introduces large numbers of dislocations which >can provide sites for cracking after loading. This one property alone makes >a study very complex. Perhaps this would be reduced, if the metal were only bent while heated to the point of softening. Or perhaps annealed after bending (shaping) is complete? > >The bottom line is no clear pattern has been found, only a few procedures >which improve success once a good batch is delivered almost by accident. I must be the umpteenth person to say this, but knowing what you know, what happens when you take deliberate measures to improve all the aspects of which you are aware that they help, and to decrease all those aspects of which you are aware that they hinder? Does this on average lead to a better cathode? >However, we now can test material to see if it might be active without >spending months of calorimetry. If this problem is ever to be solved, a >large amount of money and the cooperation of palladium manufactures will be >required. Until then, we use good luck and intuition for the search. Intuition is really your subconscious mind assimilating all the data you have at your disposal, and searching for patterns. The human mind is generally speaking quite good at this, however putting the same information into a computer database, and letting the machine do a 'grunt work' systematic search could also prove useful (partly because computers aren't biased, which humans invariably are, at least to some extent, and frequently not consciously). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:56:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10726; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:54:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:54:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009b01bf7034$1fb61460$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.20000205103846.007b75c0@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Cathode materials Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:52:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"DQtEu3.0.Md2.4eAdu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:34 PM Subject: Re: Cathode materials Robin wrote: > On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:38:46 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > > > Unless each sample is measured for its output at the > >peak of the optimal operating point (OOP), one cannot > >judge differences between samples -- despite the several > >good points brought up by Edmund. > > Provided that such a point can be found for a given sample, that would seem > to be a good approach. That was the point of my post regarding measuring the "static" potentials and currents of the Pd or Ni cathodes in a standard cell, to see if there is a measurable difference in samples. If the measurements were sensitive enough in a standard solution with a standard Pt anode. Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 16:11:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19934; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:09:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:09:44 -0800 Message-ID: <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:11:29 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0px4w3.0.Ot4.7lBdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 08:13:20 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >have not been available to this field. However, several things can be said. > >Certain batches have a much high success rate than others. These "good" > >batches seem to have low oxygen and carbon contents but may be impure with > >respect to other metals. A few batches containing small amounts of boron > > Have any of these "other metals" been identified (other than Boron)? Some samples containing silver and small amounts of cerium have worked. All kinds of alloys have been tried, but because all of the variables were not controlled and few runs were made, it is impossible to know whether some of these attempts might eventually produce EP. All we can say is no magic bullet exists. > > > >have been active but not all. Grain size seems to have no effect although > >annealing, which increases grain size among other things, improves loading. > > Annealing would also tend to heal surface cracks wouldn't it? > Rapidly melting just a thin surface layer (microwaves? - high powered > laser?) might also help. No, annealing does not heal the cracks. Rapid melting would but this has not been tried. In any case, if the material is susceptible to cracking, the healed metal would just make more cracks when it is reloaded with hydrogen. > > > >Surface impurity seems to be important in both improving and destroying the > >effect. > > This seems to imply that catalytic "poisoning" is important. Is there any > way of determining (perhaps with the aid of other groups), which impurities > help, and which hinder? Yes, some information is available. Unfortunately, an electrolytic environment introduces impurities which can not be avoided, Li and Pt for example. I have see EP from a sample having a high Si content on the surface while similar samples were completely dead. The one bad feature of any coating is when it prevents loading. This is easy to test even though the exact nature of the barrier may not be known. > > > >To make matters worse, palladium as a metal is very inhomogeneous in > >all its properties. Normally this is not a problem in most applications. > >Indeed, just bending the metal introduces large numbers of dislocations which > >can provide sites for cracking after loading. This one property alone makes > >a study very complex. > > Perhaps this would be reduced, if the metal were only bent while heated to > the point of softening. Or perhaps annealed after bending (shaping) is > complete? Yes, but people who use wires which come in a coil have a problem. Of course, such samples can be annealed just before being placed in the calorimeter. However, such annealing needs to be done in high vacuum which is not generally available to most experimenters. In addition, the annealing changes the grain size which introduces another variable. This is a complex problem which most laboratories are not equipped to handle. > > > >The bottom line is no clear pattern has been found, only a few procedures > >which improve success once a good batch is delivered almost by accident. > > I must be the umpteenth person to say this, but knowing what you know, what > happens when you take deliberate measures to improve all the aspects of > which you are aware that they help, and to decrease all those aspects of > which you are aware that they hinder? Does this on average lead to a better > cathode? Unfortunately, unless I could manufacture the palladium from scratch, I could not control some of the important variables. If I do everything right using material which is delivered to me, I do have some success, but not often. On the other hand, it is easy to do things which will cause even good Pd to behave badly. > > > >However, we now can test material to see if it might be active without > >spending months of calorimetry. If this problem is ever to be solved, a > >large amount of money and the cooperation of palladium manufactures will be > >required. Until then, we use good luck and intuition for the search. > > Intuition is really your subconscious mind assimilating all the data you > have at your disposal, and searching for patterns. The human mind is > generally speaking quite good at this, however putting the same information > into a computer database, and letting the machine do a 'grunt work' > systematic search could also prove useful (partly because computers aren't > biased, which humans invariably are, at least to some extent, and frequently > not consciously). The problem in using the computer is the problem of quantifying the observation especially because dozens of variables are involved. In addition, many samples would have to be studied, which is the normal process in solving such problems. In this case, knowing whether the sample will make EP takes at least a week of loading. That's one calorimeter tied up for a week to get one point. You see the problem. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 16:20:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23001; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:18:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:18:56 -0800 Message-ID: <389CBE59.235A1610 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:20:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrode Potentials and Currents in Aqueous K2CO3 References: <008901bf7031$955d6ea0$fd441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"El-GM1.0.Ed5.ltBdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, measurement of open-circuit-voltage and over-voltage with respect to a reference electrode are two methods I use to good effect. A vast literature on the behavior of electrolytic cells and reactions which take place at the electrode surface is available. I am applying this approach and hope to be able to identify the important variables. If you are going to make such measurements, you need to use a meter which has a very high resistance. Digital meters have a high enough resistance as well as being very sensitive. Why do you distrust them? Ed Storms Frederick Sparber wrote: > By measuring the"static" voltages and currents of the electrolysis cells, might one see a > difference > between Pd or Ni cathodes that produce CF/OU and those that don't? > > I tried a silver vs a stainless spoon in softened tap water with and without K2CO3 and was > impressed > by the difference. But I don't trust a digital meter as opposed to sensitive analog meters. > > What's your take on this Dr. Storms? > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 17:58:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20964; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:50:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:50:18 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Canadian World Domination Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:01:15 -0500 Message-ID: <20000206020115015.AAA62 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"UTgrE2.0.U75.QDDdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >"Reorganizing a New World Society of Canucks to suit our kindly, >peace-loving, and diabolical aims." > >See the unstoppable! > >http://www.standonguard.com > >- Jed I just sent General Claire our unconditional surrender. Hope you all don't mind. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 18:05:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24020; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:59:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:59:10 -0800 Message-ID: <00c801bf704e$02097f00$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <008901bf7031$955d6ea0$fd441d26 fjsparber> <389CBE59.235A1610@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Electrode Potentials and Currents in Aqueous K2CO3 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:58:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"JsO4l1.0.Et5.kLDdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:20 PM Subject: Re: Electrode Potentials and Currents in Aqueous K2CO3 I distrust the Digital Meters because of the nagging suspicion that they put out a voltage. > Yes, measurement of open-circuit-voltage and over-voltage with respect to a reference > electrode are two methods I use to good effect. A vast literature on the behavior of > electrolytic cells and reactions which take place at the electrode surface is available. I am > applying this approach and hope to be able to identify the important variables. > > If you are going to make such measurements, you need to use a meter which has a very high > resistance. Digital meters have a high enough resistance as well as being very sensitive. > Why do you distrust them? > > Ed Storms > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > By measuring the"static" voltages and currents of the electrolysis cells, might one see a > > difference > > between Pd or Ni cathodes that produce CF/OU and those that don't? > > > > I tried a silver vs a stainless spoon in softened tap water with and without K2CO3 and was > > impressed > > by the difference. But I don't trust a digital meter as opposed to sensitive analog meters. > > > > What's your take on this Dr. Storms? > > > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 18:28:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31629; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:26:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:26:36 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:25:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <06mp9s08hn0ppptgd6qnf3fqervu75qv1k 4ax.com> References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA31610 Resent-Message-ID: <"EagyK3.0.7k7.SlDdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:11:29 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >The problem in using the computer is the problem of quantifying the observation >especially because dozens of variables are involved. In addition, many samples >would have to be studied, which is the normal process in solving such problems. >In this case, knowing whether the sample will make EP takes at least a week of >loading. That's one calorimeter tied up for a week to get one point. You see >the problem. Would it be possible to "pre-load" a number of cathodes concurrently in the one calorimeter for a number of days (4?), then transfer them one by one into a different calorimeter, 1 at a time, for individual testing, based on FIFO (first in first out)? This could cut several days off the test time for each cathode. Or would transferring them necessarily result in severe deloading, even if done rapidly? If EP were to become evident in the pre-loading calorimeter, then you would also have advance warning that you had a good cathode "on the way". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 18:47:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03918; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:46:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:46:01 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:45:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA03888 Resent-Message-ID: <"rlABC.0.3z.f1Edu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:11:29 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >Some samples containing silver and small amounts of cerium have worked. All >kinds of alloys have been tried, but because all of the variables were not >controlled and few runs were made, it is impossible to know whether some of these >attempts might eventually produce EP. All we can say is no magic bullet exists. [snip] If you have already tried this, then please forgive me for being redundant, but how about melting a bad sample of Pd, then deliberately adding large quantities of other elements, each in it's own batch. I.e. producing your own alloys. I realise that small quantities of some substances may well inhibit EP, however it is also possible that such inhibitors might be overcome with the addition of large quantities of a "protagonist", and it is much easier to add a large quantity of something, than to eliminate small amounts of something else. Once something is found that has a positive effect, different strengths can be tried. Drawing wires might be somewhat difficult in a laboratory, but beating thin sheets might be relatively easy (when still hot), particularly if you could come up with an alloy that is easier to work than pure Pd. I suggest this, because, as I see the current state of the art, alloys are just as likely to work as the pure metal, or for just the right alloy, perhaps much better. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 20:05:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24631; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:03:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:03:02 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <389B7245.C5F498D1 ix.netcom.com> References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:58:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"WLfbX.0.d06.q9Fdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell, it amazes me that two people with scientific backgrounds who >have been >exposed to similar training can disagree so much about basic and >noncontroversial >aspects of nature. Is it possible that CF makes even basic agreement >impossible >or is it that you just like to challenge everything? ***{In theory, it would probably be good to challenge everything. As a practical matter, however, we must limit ourselves to challenging statements that we regard as important. In the present case, we are dealing with the claim that it is possible to get more energy out than we put in, when we pass a 1 amp current through a piece of platinum in an electrolytic cell. If true, such a claim would be of Earth-shaking importance, since it suggests a new source of energy which, if understood and developed, could transform conditions on this planet in enormously beneficial ways. Because the claim is important, it needs to be challenged: it is only by hurling arguments at an opinion that we can determine whether it is true. As to why my focus is on the validity of the input power measurement, the answer is twofold: (a) such measurements are notoriously easy to mess up, and (b) calorimetry, by its very nature, seems poorly suited to the task of identifying a new energy source. To elaborate a bit on point (b), I would note that RMS power, by definition, is the heat produced by a circuit, expressed in electrical power units. That means a calorimeter is a power meter, and, more importantly, that it is the power meter of last resort. This means is that if we question the power consumption of a circuit, as reported to us by a wattmeter, the final arbiter is a calorimeter: we put the circuit inside a calorimeter and, if we find that the heat produced by the calorimeter, expressed in electrical power units, is 3% higher than the wattmeter reading, WE CONCLUDE THAT THE WATTMETER READING IS 3% TOO LOW. This is the way things are done in the electrical power industry, Ed. Moreover, it is the way they have been done for generations. Within the context of the engineering culture that exists in that industry, your experiment seems absurd: you have hooked two power meters to a simple electrical circuit, one being a notoriously fallible do-it-yourself wattmeter-in-a-computer, and the other being a high dollar power meter of last resort. When the two power meters disagree, you say that the notoriously fallible one is right, that the meter of last resort is right, and that the explanation is a will-o-the-wisp: a phantom "new energy" source which no one can seem to identify or explain. Power company engineers get the giggles when they hear such claims. They imagine such things as this: a wattmeter says a light bulb is consuming 50 watts; a calorimeter says it is consuming 100 watts. Conclusion: cold fusion within the light bulb! At that point, they collapse into uproarious laughter and, after they stop rolling around on the floor and wipe the tears out of their eyes, they explain that if they had not closed their minds to such notions, handed down judgments in favor of the heat-based concept of power, and moved on, the electrical power industry would not exist. Moreover, they are correct: everything they do is based on the calorimetric definition of electrical power. Bottom line: you are in an uphill battle, Ed. You may be right, and, as I have repeatedly noted, I hope with all my being that you are. However, power company engineers are the top dogs in this field. They are the experts, and they define the power consumption of a circuit in terms of the heat it produces, expressed in electrical power units. Because of that, your wattmeter-in-a-PC has to be above reproach, or they will continue to dismiss its readings amidst peals of laughter, and your "new energy source" along with it. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >> > >> >While I agree, if the spike frequency were very high, my sampling rate >> >would not >> >see all of the spikes, hence would miss some power. However, my rate >> >would not >> >miss all spikes, hence would show a scatter of values which would be >> >apparent in >> >the measurement. The scatter when excess power is being made is no >> >greater than >> >when dead Pt is studied. Surely you have to agree that some difference >> >should be >> >seen if spikes are occurring during EP production. >> >> ***{No, I don't agree, but in order to explain why, I have to focus on some >> details concerning the situation we may be dealing with here. Therefore, >> please bear with me. I will explain why the scatter can be the same when >> these needed preliminaries are out of the way. >> >> As I explained yesterday, if arcing is occuring due to some unknown >> condition of the cathode, there is nothing your power supply can do to >> prevent current spikes. All it can do is compensate for a current spike >> after the fact by dropping the voltage, thereby producing a negative >> current spike that is hopefully of the same size as the one caused by the >> arc, so that the *average* value of the current stays at your set point, >> despite the positive and negative spikes. Note, however, that under these >> conditions, your assumption of constant current has been invalidated. You >> are no longer dealing with DC current, but with an AC current that has an >> average value which is held to your set point. Result: to obtain a proper >> computation of input power, a much faster sampling rate and more complex >> procedures are required. > >I only need to know the average power. If the current goes up and down >around a >set point and this fluctuation is faster than the time constant of the >calorimeter, then the temperature measurements will average these >fluctuations and >provide an accurate relationship between applied power and temperature. Your >argument, involves missing a spike which is going in one direction, in >particular >up in value. Consequently, I'm confused by your statement. ***{You say you take 1100 simultaneous samples of current and voltage each second and feed them into your PC (a Mac IIfx). Once there, based on your description of Feb. 1, you find the average value of voltage over 15000 samples, the average value of current over 15000 samples, and then multiply them together, in order to compute power for that interval. Here is what Don Lancaster said to me, almost two years ago, when I described such a procedure to him: ******************************************* What you are describing is classic E.E. Student lab blunder #01-A. Average power in general is NOT the average value of the current times the average value of the voltage. Average power is the product is the summed and scaled average of the instantaneous current times the instantaneous voltage. Especially on low duty cycle waveforms, but even on sinewaves. The definition of rms is an equivalent continuous current that gives exactly the same power dissipation. Heat balance, in fact, is one common means of accurately measuring the power of strange waveforms. See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse112.pdf for a tutorial. Or any intro circuit theory book. Such as Skilling's Electrical Engineering Circuits. -- Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics Press 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Voice phone: (520) 428-4073 email: don tinaja.com Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com ******************************************* I have, of course, posted that quote for you before. Unfortunately, you ignored it, and so I am posting it for you again. What Don is saying is that the computer algorithm you are using to compute your input power is wrong. Here in summary form is the logic you are using to calculate average power over the 15000 sample interval, expressed in English rather than computerese: 1. Move zeroes to current counter, voltage counter, power counter, and operation counter. 2. Read current into current storage location and read voltage into voltage storage location. 3. Add contents of current storage location to current counter; add contents of voltage storage location to voltage counter; add 1 to operation counter. 4. If operation counter greater than 14999 move zeroes to operation counter and go to 5, else go to 2. 5. Divide current counter by 15000; divide voltage counter by 15000; multiply current counter times voltage counter and add the result to power counter. The above is a single piece of logic, of course. In your actual software, it will be only one part of the program. In that program you will have other commands, to determine when you average the values in your power counter, where to store the resulting data points, to format and print results, etc. Nevertheless, based on what you have said previously, something along the above lines is what you are doing when you compute average power over the 15,000 point interval, AND THAT IS WRONG. Here, again simplified, is what you ought to be doing: 1. Move zeroes to power counter and operation counter. 2. Read current into current storage location and read voltage into voltage storage location. 3. Multiply contents of current storage location by the contents of voltage storage location, and store the result in power storage location. 4. Add contents of power storage location to power counter; add 1 to operation counter. 5. If operation counter greater than 14999 move zeroes to operation counter and go to 6, else go to 2. 6. Divide power counter by 15000. At the end of the logic, in both cases, the power counter contains a supposed average value of power over the 15000 samples. However, in the first case, the value is calculated by an incorrect algorithm, and, under many circumstances, it will be WRONG. I will respond to other parts of your 30 page message later. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 20:16:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA28223; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:14:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:14:36 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <389D037F.746F1266 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 05:15:43 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <389A2883.D57EA65E ix.netcom.com> <38990177.36893372 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000204145247.01d3ded4@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"c63n43.0.vu6.iKFdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: As I explained yesterday, if arcing is occuring due to some unknown condition of the cathode, there is nothing your power supply can do to prevent current spikes. Scott Little wrote: If only you had enough experience to realize that cells like Ed's don't draw current in spikes. Hi Scott and Mitchell, The only experience I've had with cells like Ed's is what I read about them. I would like to read about how "cells like Ed's don't draw current in spikes." Please give me some web referemces that include data. Conversely, I would also like to read on the web about experiments which show that cells like Ed's DO draw current in spikes. Jack Smith Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Primarily for Ed, Hi, have you sorted your past used good cathodes by %excess produced, then checked which other properties of these cathodes (both chemical and structural) follow the same trend? Mitchell Swartz wrote: Unless each sample is measured for its output at the peak of the optimal operating point (OOP), one cannot judge differences between samples -- despite the several good points brought up by Edmund. Jack writes: It might be productive if the discussion could turn to OU evidence other than the production of excess heat, e.g. the generation of helium compared to no helium from controls. How does one determine the OOP of a cathode? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 21:40:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19653; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:38:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:38:59 -0800 Message-ID: <389D095C.8FE810BF ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:40:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7@ix.netcom.com> <06mp9s08hn0ppptgd6qnf3fqervu75qv1k@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"blGZz1.0._o4.oZGdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Generally speaking, a good sample will remain good after repeated deloading. Preloading makes sense and has been done to test the ability of a sample to load to a sufficient level, a precondition for eventual EP. If the samples were sufficiently small, several could be run together in a calorimeter. However, this adds to the complexity of the apparatus and the measurements, but could be done. When the time comes to do a serious study, ways can be found to solve this problem. For example, P-F built 100 simple calorimeters to examine many samples one by one. However, until the money is available, this speculation is not very useful. Ed Storms Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:11:29 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >The problem in using the computer is the problem of quantifying the observation > >especially because dozens of variables are involved. In addition, many samples > >would have to be studied, which is the normal process in solving such problems. > >In this case, knowing whether the sample will make EP takes at least a week of > >loading. That's one calorimeter tied up for a week to get one point. You see > >the problem. > Would it be possible to "pre-load" a number of cathodes concurrently in the > one calorimeter for a number of days (4?), then transfer them one by one > into a different calorimeter, 1 at a time, for individual testing, based on > FIFO (first in first out)? This could cut several days off the test time for > each cathode. > Or would transferring them necessarily result in severe deloading, even if > done rapidly? > If EP were to become evident in the pre-loading calorimeter, then you would > also have advance warning that you had a good cathode "on the way". > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 21:47:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21756; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:45:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:45:35 -0800 Message-ID: <389D0AE9.F66708F8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:47:26 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA@ix.netcom.com> <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"42pX51.0.nJ5.-fGdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, we did this at LANL using an arc melter. After melting, we rolled the button into a sheet. This approach makes sense and is worth doing. However, it is hard to analyze of everything which might be in the Pd and it is hard to eliminate certain impurities. Therefore, to some extent we would have to rely on the effect you propose. Eventually, this all will be done but not soon. Ed Storms Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:11:29 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >Some samples containing silver and small amounts of cerium have worked. All > >kinds of alloys have been tried, but because all of the variables were not > >controlled and few runs were made, it is impossible to know whether some of these > >attempts might eventually produce EP. All we can say is no magic bullet exists. > [snip] > If you have already tried this, then please forgive me for being redundant, > but how about melting a bad sample of Pd, then deliberately adding large > quantities of other elements, each in it's own batch. I.e. producing your > own alloys. I realise that small quantities of some substances may well > inhibit EP, however it is also possible that such inhibitors might be > overcome with the addition of large quantities of a "protagonist", and it is > much easier to add a large quantity of something, than to eliminate small > amounts of something else. > Once something is found that has a positive effect, different strengths can > be tried. > Drawing wires might be somewhat difficult in a laboratory, but beating thin > sheets might be relatively easy (when still hot), particularly if you could > come up with an alloy that is easier to work than pure Pd. > I suggest this, because, as I see the current state of the art, alloys are > just as likely to work as the pure metal, or for just the right alloy, > perhaps much better. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 21:50:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23313; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:48:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:48:28 -0800 Message-ID: <389D0B97.EC1FCEEE ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:50:20 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrode Potentials and Currents in Aqueous K2CO3 References: <008901bf7031$955d6ea0$fd441d26 fjsparber> <389CBE59.235A1610@ix.netcom.com> <00c801bf704e$02097f00$fd441d26@fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BYp-H.0.Bi5.hiGdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have never found this to be the case. However, you can check by hooking two of them together. If one reads a voltage, then you are correct. Ed Storms. Frederick Sparber wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Edmund Storms > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:20 PM > Subject: Re: Electrode Potentials and Currents in Aqueous K2CO3 > > I distrust the Digital Meters because of the nagging suspicion that they put out a voltage. > > > Yes, measurement of open-circuit-voltage and over-voltage with respect to a reference > > electrode are two methods I use to good effect. A vast literature on the behavior of > > electrolytic cells and reactions which take place at the electrode surface is available. I am > > applying this approach and hope to be able to identify the important variables. > > > > If you are going to make such measurements, you need to use a meter which has a very high > > resistance. Digital meters have a high enough resistance as well as being very sensitive. > > Why do you distrust them? > > > > Ed Storms > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > By measuring the"static" voltages and currents of the electrolysis cells, might one see a > > > difference > > > between Pd or Ni cathodes that produce CF/OU and those that don't? > > > > > > I tried a silver vs a stainless spoon in softened tap water with and without K2CO3 and was > > > impressed > > > by the difference. But I don't trust a digital meter as opposed to sensitive analog meters. > > > > > > What's your take on this Dr. Storms? > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 03:25:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA05991; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:24:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:24:38 -0800 Message-ID: <012001bf709d$032cb060$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Jones' Problem Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 04:22:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"sE8rl.0.ST1.sdLdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: M. Jones wrote: > > To find that electrically heating Platinum in an electrolyte and finding OU heat would be Earthshaking. > On what scale? :-) Rumford's experiments in "honing" a cannon ca. 1798 using a crude water calorimeter, suggests OU heat, Griggs-Huffman Pumps find OU heat, the solid-liquid interface of the F&P Cell during electrolysis show OU heat (and CF reactions to boot), the 200 watt coffee-cup immersion heater experiments that you ran to replicate the experiment that I ran on same, showed OU heat, but you went into the denial mode. You could probably find OU heat when you're drying out the wet brakes on your car, if you could do the calorimetry. I think the "Gee Whiz" Factor left long ago, and now it's time to figure what Nature is up to., and whether or not the effect will remain a laboratory curiosity. Personally, I'm sticking to the Light Lepton, Neutrino, Sparberino, Pair production theory with CF/OU Heat production when the pairs interact with Deuteron-Proton-Electron to form Quasineutron/Quasidineutrons or Mills' Hydrinos. >From the immersion heater results, I find a "window of effect" at about 3 watts/cm^2 with the water and/or electrolyte temperature around 400 deg K. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 05:53:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA29739; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 05:52:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 05:52:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000206084852.007dbdf0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:48:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt In-Reply-To: <389D037F.746F1266 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <389A2883.D57EA65E ix.netcom.com> <38990177.36893372 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000204145247.01d3ded4 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"78VCm3.0.bG7.KoNdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:15 AM 2/6/00 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >Unless each sample is measured for its output at the >peak of the optimal operating point (OOP), one cannot >judge differences between samples -- despite the several >good points brought up by Edmund. > >Jack writes: > >It might be productive if the discussion could turn to >OU evidence other than the production of excess heat, e.g. >the generation of helium compared to no helium from controls. > >How does one determine the OOP of a cathode? > >Jack Smith Good point, Jack. For Pd/D2O, the helium and heat production are linked - as shown in several of our papers including the most recent, Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999). The determination is made by careful measurements at several input electrical powers which are maintained during the measurement (and for sufficient time for equilibrium, of course). Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 07:13:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16346; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:11:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:11:54 -0800 Message-ID: <389D8FA1.9020D85C ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:13:41 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qgFRO1.0.K_3.wyOdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > Power company engineers get the giggles when they hear such claims. They > imagine such things as this: a wattmeter says a light bulb is consuming 50 > watts; a calorimeter says it is consuming 100 watts. Conclusion: cold > fusion within the light bulb! At that point, they collapse into uproarious > laughter and, after they stop rolling around on the floor and wipe the > tears out of their eyes, they explain that if they had not closed their > minds to such notions, handed down judgments in favor of the heat-based > concept of power, and moved on, the electrical power industry would not > exist. Moreover, they are correct: everything they do is based on the > calorimetric definition of electrical power. Mitchell, you are not understanding exactly how the work is done. We are not doing absolute calorimetry but relative calorimetry. To use your light bulb analogy, we place a standard light bulb (one we know puts out exactly as much heat as it consumes in electrical energy) into the calorimeter and adjust the calorimeter to give the same reading as the watt meter. Then we place another light bulb in the calorimeter and check to see if the watt meter gives the same power as the calorimeter. Occasionally, we find a light bulb which gives 3%, maybe as high as 10%, and very rarely as high as 20% more power as heat than is shown by the watt meter. Since everyone knows this is impossible, some people, such as yourself, suggest the watt meter is wrong. Others concentrate on errors in the calorimeter. But then people at other laboratories doing the same comparison but using different watt meters and calorimeters start seeing the same thing. Gradually, patterns become apparent. GE light bulbs tend to give a greater excess energy than those made by Westinghouse. In addition, the abnormal light bulbs have a different color and shape than the normal ones. At some point, a rational person concludes the effect is not caused by the watt meter or calorimeter but by the light bulb. I have reached that stage but you have not. I'm afraid the train has left the station while you are still arguing about the accuracy of the train schedule. > > > ******************************************* > What you are describing is classic E.E. Student lab blunder #01-A. > > Average power in general is NOT the average value of the current times the > average value of the voltage. Average power is the product is the summed > and scaled average of the instantaneous current times the instantaneous > voltage. I understand this concept perfectly. When the voltage and current are not in phase, one needs to multiply the current and voltage at the same point in time rather than taking the average of each and then multiplying to get the power. First of all, I do not agree that spikes are present. But if they are, no way exists for the current spike to be out of phase with the voltage spike. In addition, using the second method rather than the first will underestimate the power only by the amount of phase shift. The maximum error, which is 1/2 of the spike power would occur when the two quantities are 180° out of phase, assuming random spikes. So the error range is zero to 1/2 of the power contained in the spikes. But, as I pointed out previously, the spikes are actually pulsed DC rather than AC. Hence a capacitor across the measuring circuit would solve the problem. In any case, I think we have explored this subject as much as we can. I will test your ideas as time allows. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 08:46:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA18426; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:45:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:45:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <26.1788d4d.25cdc540 aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:41:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Resent-Message-ID: <"ISQI02.0.qV4.QKQdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In a message dated 2/4/00 10:25:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net >writes: > > <> > >> Scott wrote: >> If we can't find a problem in the data, we're just >> >going to have to let the results stand as apparently valid. > >> >> MJ replies: >> ***{I repeat: that's your opinion. I, on the other hand, am not yet >> satisfied that there is no problem with the power measurement. Note, >> however, that I am not demanding that you abandon your concerns and begin >> pursuing mine, and I am not describing your analysis as a "wild hypothesis >> flood" or as "senseless hypotheses!" The question is, what in the hell is >> the matter with you today, anyway? Is your wife making you sleep on the >> couch? Did your daughter turn up pregnant? Did your mistress run off with >> the mailman? --MJ}*** > >Mitchell, you are WAY out of line with the above. Please try to keep it >civil. > A snippet of Vortex rules below to remind you: > >2. This is NOT the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and > namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. The tone > should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. > Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having > some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave > in disgust. But if your mind is open, hop on board! Help us test > "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away. > (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of skepticism, see ZEN AND > THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin, on WEIRD SCIENCE page.) > >Respectfully, > >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas Nevada >702-254-2122 > >BTW, I don't agree with any of the points you have raised, but then, that's >just >my opinion. VC ***{I suggest you quote the rules to Scott, not to me. In case you have forgotten: (1) Scott described my statements as "wild," thereby suggesting that I was in some sort of frenzied emotional state. (2) Scott described my statements as "senseless," thereby demeaning my intelligence. (3) Scott alleged that I was "blowing smoke," thereby suggesting that I was motivated by intellectual dishonesty. What this means is that Scott did not merely fire the first shot, but that he fired a volley of shots. Result: I am entitled to respond, and neither he nor you have the slightest grounds to complain when I do so. In fact, I was more restrained in my reply than he was in his verbal assault, since I merely engaged in pejorative speculations about his motivations and emotional state, while saying nothing about his intelligence. The only way we are going to keep things civil here is if we all force ourselves to focus on the substantive content--the reasoning--in other people's messages, and avoid introducing irrelevant pejorative speculations into discussions. That means it is those who fire the first shot who must be condemned, not those who fire back. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 09:18:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30182; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:16:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:16:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <389D8FA1.9020D85C ix.netcom.com> References: <38990177.36893372@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:12:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Anomalous heat from Pt Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA30146 Resent-Message-ID: <"HKRdx1.0.RN7.nnQdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >> Power company engineers get the giggles when they hear such claims. They >> imagine such things as this: a wattmeter says a light bulb is consuming 50 >> watts; a calorimeter says it is consuming 100 watts. Conclusion: cold >> fusion within the light bulb! At that point, they collapse into uproarious >> laughter and, after they stop rolling around on the floor and wipe the >> tears out of their eyes, they explain that if they had not closed their >> minds to such notions, handed down judgments in favor of the heat-based >> concept of power, and moved on, the electrical power industry would not >> exist. Moreover, they are correct: everything they do is based on the >> calorimetric definition of electrical power. > >Mitchell, you are not understanding exactly how the work is done. We are not >doing absolute calorimetry but relative calorimetry. To use your light bulb >analogy, we place a standard light bulb (one we know puts out exactly as much >heat as it consumes in electrical energy) into the calorimeter and adjust the >calorimeter to give the same reading as the watt meter. Then we place another >light bulb in the calorimeter and check to see if the watt meter gives the >same >power as the calorimeter. Occasionally, we find a light bulb which gives 3%, >maybe as high as 10%, and very rarely as high as 20% more power as heat >than is >shown by the watt meter. Since everyone knows this is impossible, some >people, >such as yourself, suggest the watt meter is wrong. Others concentrate on >errors >in the calorimeter. But then people at other laboratories doing the same >comparison but using different watt meters and calorimeters start seeing >the same >thing. Gradually, patterns become apparent. GE light bulbs tend to give a >greater excess energy than those made by Westinghouse. In addition, the >abnormal >light bulbs have a different color and shape than the normal ones. At some >point, a rational person concludes the effect is not caused by the watt >meter or >calorimeter but by the light bulb. I have reached that stage but you have >not. >I'm afraid the train has left the station while you are still arguing >about the >accuracy of the train schedule. ***{A rational person concludes that the effect is not caused by the watt meter or the calorimeter only after thoroughly examining and verifying all important aspects of both the wattmeter and the calorimeter. Unfortunately, you guys have only been examining your calorimeters, despite the *notorious* unreliability of wattmeters when irregular waveforms are involved. The result, I fear, is going to be the eventual abandonment of all of these "cold fusion" claims. I hope that is wrong, but I fear that it is not. --MJ}*** > >> >> >> ******************************************* >> What you are describing is classic E.E. Student lab blunder #01-A. >> >> Average power in general is NOT the average value of the current times the >> average value of the voltage. Average power is the product is the summed >> and scaled average of the instantaneous current times the instantaneous >> voltage. > >I understand this concept perfectly. When the voltage and current are not in >phase, one needs to multiply the current and voltage at the same point in time >rather than taking the average of each and then multiplying to get the power. ***{Incorrect. Your method doesn't even work when they are in phase. You don't see that because this discussion has been focused on an undefined waveform, so let's speak, for the moment about simple sinewaves. Suppose that current is a perfect sinewave, that voltage is a perfect sinewave, and that they are exactly in phase. In that case, if you take the average of the voltage, you get zero, and if you take the average of the current, you get zero. Result: when you multiply zero times zero, you get zero. Bottom line: what you are doing is wrong, and there aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. --MJ}*** >First of all, I do not agree that spikes are present. But if they are, no way >exists for the current spike to be out of phase with the voltage spike. ***{You are assuming that this is a purely resistive circuit--i.e., that it contains no inductance which could delay the current waveform or capacitance that could delay the voltage waveform--but that is wrong: the power supply is part of this circuit, and it contains both inductors and capacitors. In any case, as noted above, your method of calculating power will not work even when the waveforms are in phase. --MJ}*** In >addition, using the second method rather than the first will underestimate the >power only by the amount of phase shift. ***{False: with sinewaves that have zero phase shift, your method underestimates power by 100%. The only reason you are within 3% of true power--which is measured by your calorimeter--is that your power supply is doing a pretty good job of holding the current constant. --MJ}*** The maximum error, which is 1/2 of the >spike power would occur when the two quantities are 180° out of phase, >assuming >random spikes. So the error range is zero to 1/2 of the power contained >in the >spikes. But, as I pointed out previously, the spikes are actually pulsed DC >rather than AC. Hence a capacitor across the measuring circuit would >solve the >problem. ***{No, that won't work either. The zero level is arbitrary. If you set the zero in the middle of a pulsed DC wave, part of the wave has a positive sign, and part has a negative sign. If you set the zero at the bottom of a sinewave, all of the wave has a positive sign. Bottom line: pulsed DC will be diverted through a bypass capacitor if the pulses are above the critical frequency of the capacitor, just as surely as a sinewave will be diverted through it. --MJ}*** > >In any case, I think we have explored this subject as much as we can. I will >test your ideas as time allows. > >Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 10:28:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22829; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:24:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:24:40 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:35:35 -0500 Message-ID: <20000206183535343.AAA302 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA22797 Resent-Message-ID: <"7u45E3.0.ca5.dnRdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Luis writes: >Dans un courrier daté du 04/02/00 06:35:04 Paris, Madrid, >schaffermj yahoo.com a écrit : > >> The zero levels are not identified in Naudin's scope picture, as I remember. > >Hey... Have you really seen the scope pictures.... All zero levels are well >identified, you will seen the channel number just in line with... > >Jean-Louis Naudin I just had another look at that webpage, and found it has been updated to clarify the electrical measurements. As most people on this list know, my scope reading and circuit analysis skills are subpar, and in fact, I'm wondering if I have any skills at all that don't involve me running into large immovable objects for the entertainment of others however, from what I am now seeing on the the plasma panel site, it looks to me like we are looking at a real breakthrough. Can I get some better qualified people to look at the new stuff? Thanks, http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 10:46:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29480; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:44:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:44:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000206134257.007ab340 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:42:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cathode materials In-Reply-To: <389D095C.8FE810BF ix.netcom.com> References: <389C3E0D.6AAA83CA ix.netcom.com> <389CBC2B.E8A79DB7 ix.netcom.com> <06mp9s08hn0ppptgd6qnf3fqervu75qv1k 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZoocQ2.0.UC7.Y4Sdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >When the time comes to do a serious study, ways can be found to solve this >problem. For example, P-F built 100 simple calorimeters to examine many samples >one by one. However, until the money is available, this speculation is not very >useful. I *think* it was 64, not 100. (How's that for being pedantic?) Anyway, this is what Ed has refers to as "using a bulldozer instead of a shovel." I have often mentioned that idea here, but I think people missed the point, perhaps because I did not illustrate it with this kind of example. There will probably be no substantial progress in CF until tens or hundreds of millions are spent on research, with large-scale tools like this. In other words, it might cost as much as one large Atlanta highway interchange. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 14:18:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04704; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:13:54 -0800 Message-ID: <008001bf70ef$54101ce0$9c627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <20000206183535343.AAA302 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:12:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"tRUuu.0.Q91.Y8Vdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, Knuke, Naudin has a very interesting thing here. Assuming that the input power is simple DC, there is no contesting that measurement. The output power is mainly near the driven frequency, but the plasma spikes have much high frequency stuff. I note that the Tektronix THS 720P scope is sampling at a rate of 5 million samples/second, much less than its maximum rate of 2 giga-samples/second (GSPS). It certainly seems that the output exceeds input from the plasma device, but I am a bit confused about the probe connections. Both grounds are together (I find this to be peculiar, because the THS720P has independent grounds that can be at different potentials). That means that the polarity of the voltage generated across the current shunt (which we have to believe is really 10 ohms) inverted with respect to the voltage representing the current at any given moment. The scope graphic for channel 1 is inverted, but does that mean that the multiplication function of the scope is multiplying the inverted waveform, or just displaying it? Why is the waveform inverted? In no way do I wish to disrespect Mssr. Naudin, as I enjoy his website and attitude. The questions I raise merely point out some stuff I do not fully understand or would be careful about, as anyone can err. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 1:35 PM Subject: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 > Jean-Luis writes: > >Dans un courrier daté du 04/02/00 06:35:04 Paris, Madrid, > >schaffermj yahoo.com a écrit : > > > >> The zero levels are not identified in Naudin's scope picture, as I remember. > > > >Hey... Have you really seen the scope pictures.... All zero levels are well > >identified, you will seen the channel number just in line with... > > > >Jean-Louis Naudin > > I just had another look at that webpage, and found it has been updated to > clarify the electrical measurements. As most people on this list know, my > scope reading and circuit analysis skills are subpar, and in fact, I'm > wondering if I have any skills at all that don't involve me running into > large immovable objects for the entertainment of others however, from what I > am now seeing on the the plasma panel site, it looks to me like we are > looking at a real breakthrough. Can I get some better qualified people to > look at the new stuff? Thanks, > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 15:30:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31254; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:27:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:27:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:23:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Ed's Excess Power Resent-Message-ID: <"w5Ipb1.0.Ae7.9DWdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For the record: nothing I have said so far is to be taken as indicating that Ed, or anyone else making "over unity" claims, is necessarily wrong in those claims merely by virtue of errors in their protocols for measuring input power. Errors can cut both ways. If Ed modifys his power computation subroutine to do the calculations properly and does another run with an active cathode, there is a possibility that his excess heat will *increase*. For all we know at this point, he may wind up with a Mizunoesque COP of 2.0 when this all shakes out. And, frankly, I hope he does. He is the only one so far who has come forward and honestly discussed all aspects of his design. In my book, that means a lot. If anyone deserves to be the one to prove that this effect is real, he does. --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 15:57:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07563; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:55:18 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF70BA.A2293220.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:55:44 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OmFvU2.0.3s1.cdWdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday, February 06, 2000 2:13 PM, Ed Wall [SMTP:ewall infinite-energy.com] wrote: > Well, Knuke, Naudin has a very interesting thing here. Assuming that the > input power is simple DC, there is no contesting that measurement. The > output power is mainly near the driven frequency, but the plasma spikes have > much high frequency stuff. I note that the Tektronix THS 720P scope is > sampling at a rate of 5 million samples/second, much less than its maximum > rate of 2 giga-samples/second (GSPS). > > Looking a Naudin's web page, I do not see where he divides by 10 (the value of the shunt resistor) to get actual current. A division by 10 would make give 41.5W input, 21.9W output, or about the efficiency one would expect from this circuit. -- Bob Horst > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael T Huffman > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 1:35 PM > Subject: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 > > > > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 19:42:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20374; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:39:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:39:05 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:50:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20000207035001718.AAA124 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"UU6LL3.0.A-4.OvZdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob writes: >Looking a Naudin's web page, I do not see where he divides by 10 (the value >of the shunt resistor) to get actual current. A division by 10 would make >give 41.5W input, 21.9W output, or about the efficiency one would expect >from this circuit. > >-- Bob Horst Thanks Bob, Ed, Mike S. and Jean Luis again for the help, the second time I looked at this page, I seem to remember him dividing the the output by 10. I also remember questioning the 10ohm figure itself at the time, just because I have seen variations in resistor values, and generally it is a practice to measure the actual resistance before declaring it a 10'er, as it were. The third time I looked at it, I forgot about the resistor completely, and just took the output at face value. I was reading about some other plasma related stuff, mainly to do with electrostatic induction, the cluster theories, etc. and jumped to the conclusion that this was what was happening here. The panel itself is, to me, something like an inside out tube, with the outside air as gas for ionization purposes. Any additional power output would seem to me to be unusual if there was a mechanism for getting it from the plasma into the circuit. In fact, I still think that this is possible, but exactly how to make it happen, I am still unsure. One additional thing that I noticed was that when he added the lamps, the waveforms smoothed out considerably. I'm still studying it. Thanks again for your input. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 22:23:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA08031; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:22:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:22:35 -0800 Message-ID: <20000207062231.26037.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:22:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"yQTmE3.0.Pz1.gIcdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke wrote: >I just had another look at that webpage, and found it has been updated to >clarify the electrical measurements. Yes, I went back to Naudin's site and found more than I found the first time. The site has an explanation of how the measrements are made. The 10 ohm voltage is divided by a 10:1 voltage divider probe, so that the oscilloscope should display a voltage numerically equal to the current through the resistor in Amps. There is also explanation of conneciton directions and channel polarities. OK. If all is as Jean-Luis states, then his plasma panel is sending a over 200 W of AC power into his oscillator. He is also inputting over 40 W of DC power to the oscillator. Therefore, the oscillator is receiving at least 250 W of electrical power, and nothing is coming out of it. That oscillator ought to be gettting very hot. How about it Jean-Luis? Re scope zero: I can only see a poorly resolved graphic. I cannot read a zero. In older oscilloscopes, with which I am familiar, the operator can shift the zero level on the display. OK. I will assume that zero is the solid line drawn horizontally across the display. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 00:28:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA05097; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:27:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:27:18 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 03:26:36 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA05074 Resent-Message-ID: <"g4sRS2.0.YF1.a7edu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 07/02/00 00:57:22 Paris, Madrid, bhorst gte.net a écrit : > Looking a Naudin's web page, I do not see where he divides by 10 (the value > of the shunt resistor) to get actual current. A division by 10 would make > give 41.5W input, 21.9W output, or about the efficiency one would expect > from this circuit. > Have you read this below, in my web page at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm <> Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 00:40:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA00742; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:38:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 00:38:54 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 03:38:17 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id AAA00680 Resent-Message-ID: <"7jTRG2.0.WB.SIedu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 07/02/00 07:23:43 Paris, Madrid, schaffermj yahoo.com a écrit : > Therefore, the oscillator is > receiving at least 250 W of electrical power, and nothing is coming out of > it. That oscillator ought to be gettting very hot. How about it Jean-Luis? > No, the heat sink of the BUZ11 MosFet transistor is only a bit warm but not so hot, this is due to its low Rds ( 0.04 ohm ), as you may notice in the scope diagrams which shows the voltage/current input at the coil the 250 W of power doesn't come back to the power supply ( see the diagram at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/images/s_gcoilinput.gif ) Thanks to all for your interest and your comments about my current GDP tests. Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 07:35:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04439; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:33:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:33:37 -0800 Message-ID: <389EE68C.5A97C0F2 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:36:44 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Time to Ante Up for Vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LOZkP1.0.B51.HNkdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, I've been unsubscribed since 2/2/00 while on holiday; so, pardon me if this has been addressed. I was reminded when I resubscribed. Excerpting: <><><><><><><><><><><><> William J. Beaty 7040 22nd Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117 206-781-3320 USA Vortex-L Rules: 1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses. If you cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway. If you would like to give more, please do! Direct your check to the moderator, address above. Any help you can give is sincerely appreciated. <><><><><><><><><><><><> IMO, best bang for the buck on the Inet. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 10:45:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA13406; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:42:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:42:59 -0800 Message-ID: <019d01bf71a3$68833360$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Near Infrared in Proximity to Pd in H2O/D2O Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:41:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FCYl-.0.OH3.o8ndu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Radio Shack sells the 940 nanometer (1.319 ev, 0.940 Microns)LEDs rated at 20 milliamps at 1.3 volts for $1.69 each. With a few of these shining on a Pd sheet through a few millimeters path length in H2O/D2O with a K2CO3 catalyst, one might see something interesting CF or OU wise. A bit more photon energy than the 3.1 to 6.2 Micron Mid-Infrared photons preferred, but possibly much more energy efficient than heaters, electrolysis cells, or gas discharges. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 11:33:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02797; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:30:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:30:57 -0800 Message-ID: <389F1D7D.F35C0FC6 cwnet.com> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:31:36 -0800 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Near Infrared in Proximity to Pd in H2O/D2O References: <019d01bf71a3$68833360$fd441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HBhTu3.0.dh.mrndu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Radio Shack sells the 940 nanometer (1.319 ev, 0.940 Microns) LEDs rated at 20 milliamps at1.3 volts for $1.69 each. With a few of these shining on a Pd sheet through a few millimeters path length in H2O/D2O with a K2CO3 catalyst, one might see somethin g interesting CF or OU wise. > A bit more photon energy than the 3.1 to 6.2 Micron Mid-Infrared photons preferred, but possibly > much more energy efficient than heaters, electrolysis cells, or gas discharges. Hi Frederick, If you are serious about trying your idea, check out this ebay auction (Infrared laser diode module): http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=252908920 SPECIFICATIONS: current: 80 to 90mA, Input Voltage: 4.5 to 6 VDC, Output power 2.5mW. Wavelength: 780nm. Regulation: Automatic power control circuit. Collimation: AR coated glass lens. Diode type: Sharp LTO23MC. Looks like a lot more power that the RS diodes (and it will likely sell for $50 or more) but because it is a collimated lens, you can probably focus much of that power on the Pd, whereas the intensity of those puny diodes would be close to nil after being scattered by a few mm of h20. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 14:42:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24982; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:40:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:40:49 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:40:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA24951 Resent-Message-ID: <"fGT5H3.0.G66.mdqdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 03:38:17 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: [snip] >No, the heat sink of the BUZ11 MosFet transistor is only a bit warm but not >so hot, this is due to its low Rds ( 0.04 ohm ), as you may notice in the >scope diagrams which shows the voltage/current input at the coil the 250 W of >power doesn't come back to the power supply ( see the diagram at : >http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/images/s_gcoilinput.gif ) [snip] Hi Jean-Louis, I notice that on the scope picture, the channel 2 signal is specified in mA/div. However 'scopes don't measure current. Therefore at some point you have had to specify to the scope how voltage and current are related. Could you please tell us how you did this, for both measurements (i.e. for input and for output). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 15:54:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20527; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:52:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:52:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:52:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu 4ax.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"msm281.0.Z05.vgrdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:40 AM 2/8/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I notice that on the scope picture, the channel 2 signal is specified in >mA/div. However 'scopes don't measure current. Therefore at some point you >have had to specify to the scope how voltage and current are related. Could >you please tell us how you did this, for both measurements (i.e. for input >and for output). Being an owner of a THS720, I know that he just went to the menu for channel two and selected "current probe" and then selected hopefully "1 volt/amp" so that his 10x probe across the 10 ohm resistor would then be calibrated properly for current measurements. BTW, you can then ask the THS720 to multiple Ch1 by Ch2 and it automatically displays the resulting waveform on a new scale of watts/div! The only problem I have found with this marvelous little scope (you could put two of them in a standard briefcase) is that the measurement accuracy is around +/-10% relative. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 16:15:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27197; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:08:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:08:39 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:19:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20000208001928156.AAA269 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"NjJgT.0.se6.6wrdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >The only problem I have found with this marvelous little scope (you could >put two of them in a standard briefcase) is that the measurement accuracy >is around +/-10% relative. Since you are not disputing the measurement by all that much, do you have any ideas on how to loop the excess back around to the input so that it will run itself? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 17:09:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17640; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:02:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:02:56 -0800 Message-ID: <007d01bf71d0$1b1ec1c0$42637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:01:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"S5Dql.0.TJ4._isdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little > Being an owner of a THS720, I know that he just went to the menu for > channel two and selected "current probe" and then selected hopefully "1 > volt/amp" so that his 10x probe across the 10 ohm resistor would then be > calibrated properly for current measurements. > > BTW, you can then ask the THS720 to multiple Ch1 by Ch2 and it > automatically displays the resulting waveform on a new scale of watts/div! Scott, It seems to me that because both probe grounds are connected at the same point that the signals for voltage and current are of opposite polarity, which I think is the reason for the inverted waveform. If this is a correct interpretation, then the readings seem to be correct. However, the THS720P has independent grounds on the probes, so why does he not take advantage of this and eliminate the need for the inverted waveform and make the measurement simpler? This seems like an awfully easy one to 'throw together.' It would be fun to see glowing speaker wire. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 19:51:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06831; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:33:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:33:46 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000207213509.006d487c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 21:35:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <007d01bf71d0$1b1ec1c0$42637dc7 computer> References: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"abtb21.0.eg1.Qwudu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:01 PM 2/7/00 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: >...then the readings seem to be correct. However, the THS720P >has independent grounds on the probes, so why does he not take advantage of >this and eliminate the need for the inverted waveform and make the >measurement simpler? I can't imagine...unless he's just stuck in the old rut that traditional non-isolated scopes dug for us old-timers... Every time, we've used our THS720A for such measurements, I've always taken advantage of those isolated inputs so both the current and voltage could be "forward" at the same time. That way, the power trace (Ch1 X Ch2) has the correct polarity as well. For obtaining the average power being delivered, I find the best procedure is to use the MEAN measurement on the MATH trace (the computed power trace) and then adjust the horizontal time base to put about 10 cycles on the screen. Curiously that seems to work better than using the CYCLE MEAN measurement, which theoretically should be the best. As I understand it, the THS720P has some additional features that make it more suitable for power measurements than the 720A....so JLN may be able to get a better average power than I can. Knuke, I haven't studied JLN's experiment yet...I'll have to take a look at it now. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 00:24:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA20571; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:23:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:23:40 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:23:03 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA20550 Resent-Message-ID: <"e4jCH1.0.L15.BAzdu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 07/02/00 23:42:45 Paris, Madrid, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au a écrit : > I notice that on the scope picture, the channel 2 signal is specified in > mA/div. However 'scopes don't measure current. Therefore at some point you > have had to specify to the scope how voltage and current are related. Could > you please tell us how you did this, for both measurements (i.e. for input > and for output). > The THS720P is able to measure current. This can be done easily by configuring the scope probe input setup. This is why the channel 2 is showed with mA/div. The current values are also been confirmed with the TX1-DMM Tektronix multimeter ( accuracy : +-0.002% between 20Hz to 20kHz ) see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/images/s_gdp60dcur.jpg ) Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 05:04:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02036; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 05:03:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 05:03:12 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 00:02:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu@4ax.com> <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA02000 Resent-Message-ID: <"JTLAP3.0.kV.GG1eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:52:45 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 09:40 AM 2/8/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>I notice that on the scope picture, the channel 2 signal is specified in >>mA/div. However 'scopes don't measure current. Therefore at some point you >>have had to specify to the scope how voltage and current are related. Could >>you please tell us how you did this, for both measurements (i.e. for input >>and for output). > >Being an owner of a THS720, I know that he just went to the menu for >channel two and selected "current probe" and then selected hopefully "1 >volt/amp" so that his 10x probe across the 10 ohm resistor would then be >calibrated properly for current measurements. [snip] This is precisely the sort of detail I was hoping to get from JL. Unfortunately you have now preempted it. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 05:09:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03883; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 05:08:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 05:08:45 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 00:08:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5850ascinlvk18pk811m32bv8fdsvjk9ab 4ax.com> References: <06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu@4ax.com> <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA03854 Resent-Message-ID: <"FTZff2.0.Vy.TL1eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 00:02:36 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] >This is precisely the sort of detail I was hoping to get from JL. >Unfortunately you have now preempted it. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Please excuse the above comment, it's too late for me, I'm off to bed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 06:52:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00581; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:51:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:51:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000208085128.01218dd8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:51:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> <06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu 4ax.com> <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UbI063.0._8.Lr2eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:02 AM 2/9/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >This is precisely the sort of detail I was hoping to get from JL. >Unfortunately you have now preempted it. Fortunately for my big mouth..., JLN already provided just this level of detail at the bottom of his power measurements page: (http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm) "The upper left scope picture shows the Voltage and the Current curves measured at the GDP output. The Voltage is set at 2kV/div ( in inverted mode ( see the "downward arrow" on the right side of "Ch1", the current is set at 50mA/div ( the current has been measured on the R1 non inductive 10 ohms resistor, with a x10 probe, the scope input channel ratio has been set to 1000mV/A ), the time base used is 50us/div. The right side of the scope picture shows datas measured by the scope itself : on Ch1(Voltage) : freq=5.809 kHz at 4.04kV max and on Ch2(Current) : 92mA max." Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 11:27:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09195; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:25:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:25:03 -0800 Message-ID: <021601bf7272$70c28e20$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:23:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF722F.5A0B90C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"GWftl.0.bF2.Es6eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF722F.5A0B90C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If Robin Van Spaandonk's suggestion that the LLs are attaching to the (+/-) ends of the water molecules and turning them into Neutral (Non Polar) Gas atoms. Then the real action with the F&P Cell and the M&O Discharge is in the "Off Gases", which could be missed by a recombiner catalyst. http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html Interesting Stuff. Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF722F.5A0B90C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html Modified=806B69747172BF016B ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF722F.5A0B90C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 11:51:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18903; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:47:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:47:31 -0800 Message-ID: <38A0733F.7387DA7F ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:49:30 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? References: <021601bf7272$70c28e20$fd441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IG4cu3.0.Gd4.JB7eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In my cells, if any product were missed by the recombiner, a pressure would build up and this would be detected by oil displaced from the reservoir which monitors the gas pressure within the cell. There is no evidence in any study which uses this method that anything is missed by the recombiner. I can not speak for the M&O method. Ed Storms Frederick Sparber wrote: > If Robin Van Spaandonk's suggestion that the LLs are attaching to the (+/-) ends of the water > molecules and > turning them into Neutral (Non Polar) Gas atoms. Then the real action with the F&P Cell > and the M&O Discharge is in the "Off Gases", which could be missed by a recombiner catalyst. > > http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html > > Interesting Stuff. > > Regards, Frederick > > -------------------------------------------------- > Name: Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url > Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream) > Encoding: 7bit From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 12:05:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25054; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:01:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:01:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000208140147.0121e444 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:01:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: another EM question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"F96px3.0.E76.KO7eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A perfect toroid energized with an AC current sits in a vacuum chamber. Nearby, outside the toroid, we release a single electron. Will this electron be oscillated back and forth by the changing A field outside the toroid? Thanks, Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 12:09:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29562; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:07:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:07:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000208150735.007aac00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:07:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Nuclear Mayhem at Monju Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1DevA2.0.qD7.GU7eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's a hair raising account of the Monju plutonium breeder reactor accident: Nuclear Mayhem at Monju, by Aileen Mioko Smith http://www.earthisland.org/journal/s96-22a.html This has many technical details, which give it the ring of truth. Smith is an antinuclear activist, but I think she has credibility. She and her husband photojournalist Eugene Smith did outstanding work in the Chisso Minamata mercury poisoning disaster and cover-up. A gang of about 100 Chisso corporate goons attached and severely beat up Eugene Smith and several patients suffering from Minamata disease. It is hard to imagine a more positive endorsement of his journalistic accuracy. He suffered from vision problems and weakness the rest of his life from the beating. This probably caused him to fall to his death at age 60, in 1978. Aileen Smith's most recent report on the continuing Minamata scandal can be found at: http://www.smn.co.jp/opinions/0069o01e.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 12:26:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05936; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:23:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:23:49 -0800 Message-ID: <025301bf727a$a49d1dc0$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <021601bf7272$70c28e20$fd441d26 fjsparber> <38A0733F.7387DA7F@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:22:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"bwWJ52.0.SS1.Jj7eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? Good point, but, when Brown's gas "burns" the volume Decreases. :-) > In my cells, if any product were missed by the recombiner, a pressure would build up and this would be detected > by oil displaced from the reservoir which monitors the gas pressure within the cell. There is no evidence in > any study which uses this method that anything is missed by the recombiner. I can not speak for the M&O method. > > Ed Storms > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > If Robin Van Spaandonk's suggestion that the LLs are attaching to the (+/-) ends of the water > > molecules and > > turning them into Neutral (Non Polar) Gas atoms. Then the real action with the F&P Cell > > and the M&O Discharge is in the "Off Gases", which could be missed by a recombiner catalyst. > > > > http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html > > > > Interesting Stuff. > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Name: Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url > > Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream) > > Encoding: 7bit > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 12:50:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16812; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:46:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:46:57 -0800 Message-ID: <003b01bf7276$a1370c30$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com><06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu@4ax.com><3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000208085128.01218dd8@mail.eden.co m> Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:54:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"GAwe72.0.b64.138eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm not sure why this experiment is interesting from an OU point of view. The air discharge is only a low dissipation load since the thick wire insulation limits the total charge per cycle and the frequency is low. Thus we have a lightly loaded resonant circuit in the secondary of the transformer and finding a high circulating power in the secondary is an expected result and not indicative of OU operation. Still, this does look like a fun experiment, rather similar to a tesla coil. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 13:22:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31621; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:18:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:18:38 -0800 Message-ID: <027c01bf7282$46b8e2e0$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:17:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF723F.307F04C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"qNdAn1.0._j7.kW8eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF723F.307F04C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some Pro and Con arguments about Brown's Gas. If Light Leptons (Sparberinos) are rendering the water molecules inert like nonle gases, then the heat of vaporization is pratically nil, giving calorimetry based on the weight of the "off-gas" an erroneous ""OU" result. Except for some CF reactions or Mills' claimed Hydrino Hydride reactions that would give an actual OU result, it would make an interesting energy storage means, though. http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/bgas.htm#napier Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF723F.307F04C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Brown's Gas information.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Brown's Gas information.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/bgas.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/bgas.htm#napier Modified=00F357D38072BF01CF ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF723F.307F04C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 14:18:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24788; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:13:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:13:13 -0800 Message-ID: <38A095B1.B7492E47 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:16:17 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ball Lightning Explanation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5uv382.0.E36.uJ9eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting story from: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000203/sc/science_lightning_1.html <><><><><><><><><><> Thursday February 3 7:18 AM ET NZ Scientists Present Theory on Ball Lightning LONDON (Reuters) - One of nature's strangest phenomena, ball lightning, may have been explained by two New Zealand scientists whose theory was published on Thursday in an international science journal. University of Christchurch scientists John Abrahamson and James Dinniss believe the bright, hovering spheres first recorded in the Middle Ages are fluffy balls of burning silicon created by ordinary fork lightning striking the earth. ``Most ball lightning is seen outside in thunderstorms, so we start with a normal lightning strike on soil,'' Abrahamson told BBC radio. ``If you look at what the lightning does to the soil, it penetrates underneath the surface of the soil and we suggest the heating of the soil...brings about a hot vapor which then, after the lightning has gone, erupts above the ground in just the same manner as you blow air through your lips to get a smokers' puff,'' he said. Around one in 100 people claim to have seen ball lightning, but scientists have never been able to come up with a satisfactory explanation for it. It is typically described as having a diameter somewhere between a golf ball and a beach ball and lasting for around 15 seconds, floating in the air not far from the ground. Ball lightning can be any color, but is normally white or yellowish, with an intensity roughly equivalent to a 100 watt light bulb. In their article in Nature magazine, Abrahamson and Dinniss suggest that the extreme heat generated at the point where lightning strikes can sometimes turn the silica-carbon mixture contained in soil into silicon and silicon compounds with oxygen and carbon. The process is similar to the techniques used in industry to extract pure silicon from sand. The silicon forms tiny ``nanoparticles'' which link together into chains which are lifted above the ground by air currents, Abrahamson and Dinniss wrote. The particles then burn slowly, giving off heat and light. The scientists have not yet been able prove their theory by recreating ball lightning in the laboratory, but believe it explains all the commonly observed features of the phenomenon. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 14:20:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27305; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:18:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:18:17 -0800 Message-ID: <38A096E7.4B0A1040 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:21:27 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Phobos Anomaly Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nTQ8U.0.Xg6.eO9eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Check out this anomaly on Phobos: http://www.vgl.org/webfiles/mars/phobos/phobos.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 14:28:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30287; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:24:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:24:12 -0800 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:29:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jones Beene cc: Vortex , Schnurer Subject: IR Source In-Reply-To: <389F1D7D.F35C0FC6 cwnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YKqrR1.0.yO7.BU9eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A simple IR source of moderate to high power is to be had by heating nearly any metal to red heat or hotter.... Tungsten filamnet in incandescent bulb is fine.... A nice orange color is good, judt run the power a little low... Ohe 'white' full power color and use mirrors or filters or both. A gold film mirror reflects IR quite well. Try you glass shop and ask if they will cun you a 5 by 5 inch piece of gold film IR reflective glass. J On Mon, 7 Feb 2000, Jones Beene wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Radio Shack sells the 940 nanometer (1.319 ev, 0.940 Microns) LEDs rated at 20 milliamps at1.3 volts for $1.69 each. With a few of these shining on a Pd sheet through a few millimeters path length in H2O/D2O with a K2CO3 catalyst, one might see someth ing interesting CF or OU wise. > > > A bit more photon energy than the 3.1 to 6.2 Micron Mid-Infrared photons preferred, but possibly > > much more energy efficient than heaters, electrolysis cells, or gas discharges. > > Hi Frederick, > > If you are serious about trying your idea, check out this ebay > auction (Infrared laser diode module): > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=252908920 > > SPECIFICATIONS: current: 80 to 90mA, Input Voltage: 4.5 to 6 VDC, > Output power 2.5mW. Wavelength: 780nm. Regulation: Automatic > power control circuit. Collimation: AR coated glass lens. Diode > type: Sharp LTO23MC. > > Looks like a lot more power that the RS diodes (and it will > likely sell for $50 or more) but because it is a collimated lens, > you can probably focus much of that power on the Pd, whereas the > intensity of those puny diodes would be close to nil after being > scattered by a few mm of h20. > > Regards, > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 14:49:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07610; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:45:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:45:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000208154846.010e561c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:48:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <003b01bf7276$a1370c30$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> <06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu 4ax.com> <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000208085128.01218dd8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"F4M1P1.0.ps1.hn9eu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:54 PM 2/8/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >I'm not sure why this experiment is interesting from an >OU point of view. The air discharge is only a low dissipation >load since the thick wire insulation limits the total charge >per cycle and the frequency is low. Thus we have a >lightly loaded resonant circuit in the secondary of >the transformer and finding a high circulating power >in the secondary is an expected result and not >indicative of OU operation. George, as I read JLN's presentation, he is measuring a net delivered power to the lamps + panel of about 176 watts with only a 41 watt DC input to the whole thing. I'm talking about the data presented in the composite image entitled, "The OAUGDPPower tests setup" [sic] which can be found on this page: http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm However something has got to be mixed up somewhere because, despite having one of his probes "facing the wrong way" AND having one of his traces inverted at the scope, he still ends up with V and I almost 180 degrees out of phase! Surely the lamp+panel is dominately resistive in character so they should be in phase. I've suggested to him that he take advantage of the THS720's isolated inputs and connect the scope so that no trace inversion is required. We'll see what that yields. Anyway, I guess I don't understand how he could be measuring a "circulating power". It looks like he's measuring delivered power to me. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 15:52:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00997; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:47:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:47:24 -0800 Message-ID: <38A0AB70.7563C1F4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:49:06 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? References: <021601bf7272$70c28e20$fd441d26 fjsparber> <38A0733F.7387DA7F@ix.netcom.com> <025301bf727a$a49d1dc0$fd441d26@fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dT3nl3.0.PF.7iAeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When normal H2 burns, the volume decreases also. ( H2 +1/2 O2 = H2O ) Notice that 1.5 molar volumes go to 1 volume. Ed Storms Frederick Sparber wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Edmund Storms > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:49 AM > Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? > > Good point, but, when Brown's gas "burns" the volume Decreases. :-) > > > In my cells, if any product were missed by the recombiner, a pressure would build up and this > would be detected > > by oil displaced from the reservoir which monitors the gas pressure within the cell. There is > no evidence in > > any study which uses this method that anything is missed by the recombiner. I can not speak > for the M&O method. > > > > Ed Storms > > > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > If Robin Van Spaandonk's suggestion that the LLs are attaching to the (+/-) ends of the > water > > > molecules and > > > turning them into Neutral (Non Polar) Gas atoms. Then the real action with the F&P Cell > > > and the M&O Discharge is in the "Off Gases", which could be missed by a recombiner catalyst. > > > > > > http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html > > > > > > Interesting Stuff. > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > Name: Eagle-Research NEWest News > about Brown's Gas.url > > > Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url Type: unspecified type > (application/octet-stream) > > > Encoding: 7bit > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 16:10:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08010; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:07:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:07:47 -0800 Message-ID: <007b01bf7292$9ca2f460$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com><06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu@4ax.com><3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984@mail.eden.com><3.0.1.32.20000208085128.01218dd8@mail.eden.com > <3.0.1.32.20000208154846.010e561c mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:14:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"n8cNc2.0.-y1.H_Aeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > However something has got to be mixed up somewhere because, despite having > one of his probes "facing the wrong way" AND having one of his traces > inverted at the scope, he still ends up with V and I almost 180 degrees out > of phase! - The phase relationship is the key here. Can you tell from the pictures how the scope sync is set, could each trace be synchronized only to its own channel, making the phase relationship inaccurate? - >Surely the lamp+panel is dominately resistive in character so > they should be in phase. - Actually the panel might be quite capacitive and time varying as well, and the HV transformer winding might be a large inductance while the primary is open. - > Anyway, I guess I don't understand how he could be measuring a "circulating > power". It looks like he's measuring delivered power to me. - The phase relationship is the key, if resonant power were being measured, the phase relationship would be close to 90 degrees. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 16:54:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23407; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:41:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:41:25 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: another EM question Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 11:40:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000208140147.0121e444 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000208140147.0121e444 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA23373 Resent-Message-ID: <"1sZSA3.0.Xj5.oUBeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:01:47 -0600, Scott Little wrote: > >A perfect toroid energized with an AC current sits in a vacuum chamber. >Nearby, outside the toroid, we release a single electron. Will this >electron be oscillated back and forth by the changing A field outside the >toroid? [snip] Won't it be driven around the toroid "through the hole in the donut"? If not, then how does a toroidal transformer work? (Write Maxwell's equations in terms of the electrical potential and the A field?). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 18:22:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25240; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:12:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:12:34 -0800 From: "Michael" To: Subject: RE: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:16:17 -0800 Message-ID: <001301bf72a4$169798a0$a9fdb3d1 pctech07> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000208154846.010e561c mail.eden.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Akifg.0.DA6.HqCeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > George, as I read JLN's presentation, he is measuring a net > delivered power > to the lamps + panel of about 176 watts with only a 41 watt > DC input to the > whole thing. I'm talking about the data presented in the > composite image > entitled, "The OAUGDPPower tests setup" [sic] which can be Be careful to compare apples and apples; power measurements on DC circuits are simple but in an AC circuit it's more complicated. Very easy to fool oneself when you assume the DC rules apply... > However something has got to be mixed up somewhere because, > despite having > one of his probes "facing the wrong way" AND having one of his traces > inverted at the scope, he still ends up with V and I almost > 180 degrees out > of phase! Surely the lamp+panel is dominately resistive in > character so > they should be in phase. I've suggested to him that he take > advantage of > the THS720's isolated inputs and connect the scope so that no trace > inversion is required. We'll see what that yields. Phase angle is important - in a sine-wave AC circuit, if voltage and current are 180 degrees out of phase, the power delivered is zero. Before someone hits the "flame" key - Yes, I know some of you are fully aware of the complex mathematics for AC circuits. And NO, I'm not disputing anyone's theory or findings. All I ask is that you use the right ruler to measure with - science is best served when the results are accurate. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 19:32:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11504; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:13:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:13:02 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38A0E982.89CE0EC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 04:13:54 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ball Lightning Explanation References: <38A095B1.B7492E47 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WjqUx.0.fp2.-iDeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Interesting story from: > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000203/sc/science_lightning_1.html > > <><><><><><><><><><> > > Thursday February 3 7:18 AM ET > > NZ Scientists Present Theory on Ball Lightning > > LONDON (Reuters) - One of nature's strangest phenomena, ball > lightning, may have been explained by two New Zealand scientists > whose theory was published on Thursday in an international > science journal. > > University of Christchurch scientists John Abrahamson and James > Dinniss believe the bright, hovering spheres first recorded in > the Middle Ages are fluffy balls of burning silicon created by > ordinary fork lightning striking the earth. > Hi Terry, Regarding your other post, it's a nice monolith, but does it deserve the opening strains of "Thus Spake Zarathrustra"? Regarding this post, I personally watched a ball of lightning slowly come through the glass of my patio door. Would this ability to penetrate glass result from being a cloud of "burning silicon"? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 20:33:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA00824; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:17:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:17:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000208221841.007230a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 22:18:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: RE: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <001301bf72a4$169798a0$a9fdb3d1 pctech07> References: <3.0.1.32.20000208154846.010e561c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XGM302.0.oC.HfEeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:16 PM 2/8/00 -0800, Michael wrote: >Phase angle is important - in a sine-wave AC circuit, if voltage >and current are 180 degrees out of phase, the power delivered is zero. When V and I are in phase, full power (VxI) is being delivered from the source to the load. When V and I are 90 degrees out of phase power is sloshing back and forth from the load to the source and zero net power is delivered. I think this is the condition that George suspects JLN is measuring. But, when V and I are 180 degrees out of phase, power is being delivered from the load to the source...like charging a battery! This is the condition depicted on JLN's web page and it just can't be happening. He has to have something hooked up backwards to get that picture. George, to my knowledge there is no way to deliberately shift one trace in time w.r.t. the other on the THS720. In other words, the phase relationship should be nominally OK. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 22:53:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23159; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:51:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:51:57 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:02:56 -0500 Message-ID: <20000209070256031.AAA237 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"A3gMp3.0.nf5.CwGeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >But, when V and I are 180 degrees out of phase, power is being delivered >from the load to the source...like charging a battery! This is the >condition depicted on JLN's web page and it just can't be happening. He >has to have something hooked up backwards to get that picture. > >George, to my knowledge there is no way to deliberately shift one trace in >time w.r.t. the other on the THS720. In other words, the phase >relationship should be nominally OK. I would think that given the fact that the circuit is resulting in a capacitative discharge plasma, in the open air, with a number of gases present, the plasma driving a number of chemical reactions, a broad spectrum light emission possibly UV, and the insulation material itself micropulsating, that it would be possible for the panel to be drawing power externally, and pumping it back into to wire. There would be a number of electrons free and available for this, and the insulation may develop piezoelectric properties under these conditions. Since the plasma discharges are regularly spaced, the pulsing of the insulation would follow the same frequency, and the waveform would just appear to be increased. If you did this in a vacuum, it might not be the same. This might be considered a transistor of sorts. Just some _really_ wild thoughts, of course. Feel free to shoot them down. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 23:39:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01559; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:38:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:38:15 -0800 Message-ID: <02a401bf72a1$8b19fae0$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <021601bf7272$70c28e20$fd441d26 fjsparber> <38A0733F.7387DA7F@ix.netcom.com> <025301bf727a$a49d1dc0$fd441d26@fjsparber> <38A0AB70.7563C1F4@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:00:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tA7tF3.0.BO.bbHeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? Agreed, but George Wiseman is claiming that "something electrical" is happening to the water molecules that render them neutral in the sense that their molecular bonding is eliminated. Thus you end up with a gas with large size that is similar to the Noble gases. However, when they lose this "electrical property" the heat of condensation is released and there is a reduction in volume. IF, the "Sparberinos" (excuse self-serving arrogance) :-) release about 1/2 ev energy when they annihilate, they could take the "cold flame" temperature (that they claim that you can hold your hand in) up to ~ 5,000 K at a catalytic surface. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- > When normal H2 burns, the volume decreases also. ( H2 +1/2 O2 = H2O ) Notice that 1.5 molar volumes > go to 1 volume. > > Ed Storms > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Edmund Storms > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:49 AM > > Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? > > > > Good point, but, when Brown's gas "burns" the volume Decreases. :-) > > > > > In my cells, if any product were missed by the recombiner, a pressure would build up and this > > would be detected > > > by oil displaced from the reservoir which monitors the gas pressure within the cell. There is > > no evidence in > > > any study which uses this method that anything is missed by the recombiner. I can not speak > > for the M&O method. > > > > > > Ed Storms > > > > > > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > > If Robin Van Spaandonk's suggestion that the LLs are attaching to the (+/-) ends of the > > water > > > > molecules and > > > > turning them into Neutral (Non Polar) Gas atoms. Then the real action with the F&P Cell > > > > and the M&O Discharge is in the "Off Gases", which could be missed by a recombiner catalyst. > > > > > > > > http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html > > > > > > > > Interesting Stuff. > > > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > Name: Eagle-Research NEWest News > > about Brown's Gas.url > > > > Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url Type: unspecified type > > (application/octet-stream) > > > > Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 01:13:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA17797; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:10:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:10:45 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:10:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000208154846.010e561c mail.eden.com> <001301bf72a4$169798a0$a9fdb3d1@pctech07> <3.0.1.32.20000208221841.007230a0@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000208221841.007230a0 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA17775 Resent-Message-ID: <"ANr-n2.0._L4.KyIeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 22:18:41 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >George, to my knowledge there is no way to deliberately shift one trace in >time w.r.t. the other on the THS720. In other words, the phase >relationship should be nominally OK. [snip] There is also a picture of a flat ellipse, that I think is voltage verses current. If the phase angle were 90º, then one would expect a circle. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 01:27:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA20997; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:26:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:26:56 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:26:21 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984 mail.eden.com> <06iu9sku12vh0n7n28eq6ggh80h5a45bfu@4ax.com> <3.0.1.32.20000207175245.0075f984@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000208085128.01218dd8 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000208085128.01218dd8 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA20976 Resent-Message-ID: <"8uLxe.0._75.WBJeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why is there plasma noise on the current, but not on the voltage? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 01:54:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA26592; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:53:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:53:34 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 04:52:58 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: little eden.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"7GpKB.0.QV6.TaJeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott and All, Thanks to all for your interesting comments, I have reconducted a new serie of tests about the GDP panel, according to the Scott Little advices, see the latest results at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm All constructive comments are welcome. Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 05:51:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07169; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 05:50:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 05:50:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209084833.0079dc50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:48:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Portable generator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"h7Wb51.0.tl1.R2Neu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank Scudder reported that his daughter's generator died after three days of use. Perhaps it needed oil. I just received the operator's manual for this el cheapo generator of mind. It says you're supposed to change the oil "after the first two (2) operating hours and every 50 operating hours thereafter." I wish I had seen this before I used the thing, but they forgot to pack a manual in the box. I am probably the only person in Atlanta who actually reads -- and enjoys! -- product manuals. It describes all the dire things that can happen if you abuse the machine. It says you should use a surge protector when attaching the generator to a television or computer. I used a simple surge protector. If I do it again, I think I will use my office Tripp lite UPS. The manual describes the installation of a double throw transfer switch in order to hook the generator into the main electrical supply. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 05:53:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07179; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 05:50:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 05:50:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209085008.0079f730 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:50:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ball Lightning Explanation In-Reply-To: <38A0E982.89CE0EC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <38A095B1.B7492E47 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HgRl13.0.5m1.R2Neu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Regarding this post, I personally watched a >ball of lightning slowly come through the glass >of my patio door. Would this ability to >penetrate glass result from being a cloud of >"burning silicon"? Another beautiful theory slain by ugly reality! I'll bet if you contact the professors and describe your observation, they will not believe you. People go into deep denial . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 06:44:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26610; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:44:10 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000209084527.0071d68c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:45:27 -0600 To: JNaudin509 aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ju0nq3.0.eV6.wqNeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:52 AM 2/9/00 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >Hi Scott and All, > >Thanks to all for your interesting comments, I have reconducted a new serie >of tests about the GDP panel, according to the Scott Little advices, see the >latest results at : > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm Good work, JLN. Now the scope pictures make sense. The panel by itself presents a somewhat capacitive load evidenced by the fact that the current leads the voltage. The only "problem" is now your apparent gain has risen to about 950%!!!!!!!!! That is, your scope math trace has a Mean measurement of 375.9 watts for a DC input of only 39.47 watts. Because of my sincere desire for these data to be real, we must pursue exhaustive checks of your measurements. One way to check everything at once is to replace the glow discharge panel with a dummy load that has the same impedance...but is certain to dissipate all the power that it receives as heat....and not show any o-u effects. >From the information contained in your scope pictures, I have calculated that a dummy load consisting of a 25000 ohm resistor in series with a 1.3 nanofarad capacitor should load your supply just like the panel does at 6 kHz. I suggest you assemble the 25000 ohm resistor from about ten 5 watt resistors connected in series so that it will be able to stand the high voltage and dissipate at least 50 watts. The 1.3 nanofarad capacitor must also be able to stand the high voltage. Now here's the problem we may run into: If the measurements you present on your web page are in error by a factor of 10 somewhere, the above R and C values will not be correct and the dummy load will be quite different than the panel. Most likely: Suppose your current is actually 10 times smaller than you measured. In that case, the output power would be 37.6 watts instead of 376. If that were the case, the necessary dummy load would be a 250,000 ohm R and a 130 picofarad capacitor. NOTE: This prediction agrees well with your measured value of 115 pF for the panel's capacitance! If I were you, JLN, I would first assemble a 250,000 ohm R and a 130 pF capacitor in series, replace the panel with the R-C assembly, and repeat the measurements. If you get similar results to the panel...you've got a 10x current measurement error somewhere. Good luck. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 07:48:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17542; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:46:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:46:57 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:57:52 -0500 Message-ID: <20000209155752765.AAA80 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"Da-Yn2.0.0I4.mlOeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >From the information contained in your scope pictures, I have calculated >that a dummy load consisting of a 25000 ohm resistor in series with a 1.3 >nanofarad capacitor should load your supply just like the panel does at 6 >kHz. I suggest you assemble the 25000 ohm resistor from about ten 5 watt >resistors connected in series so that it will be able to stand the high >voltage and dissipate at least 50 watts. The 1.3 nanofarad capacitor must >also be able to stand the high voltage. Hi Scott, I've never done any HV work, and have only read bits here and there about this sort of thing. Is there any danger of explosion in your proposed setup that would require the use of a blast shield? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 08:01:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23387; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:59:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:59:40 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Portable generator Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:10:41 -0500 Message-ID: <20000209161041468.AAA299 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"wrQRd3.0.Kj5.hxOeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hank Scudder reported that his daughter's generator died after three days >of use. Perhaps it needed oil. I just received the operator's manual for >this el cheapo generator of mind. It says you're supposed to change the oil >"after the first two (2) operating hours and every 50 operating hours >thereafter." You may have a good reason to take the thing back and ask for an exchange, Jed. Since the company didn't supply the necessary instructions for care, you have probably violated any warranty that came with it, and shortened the lifespan of the motor, somewhat. I didn't realize the oil change frequency was so small on those little engines, or I would have said something. >It describes all the dire things that can happen if you abuse the machine. >It says you should use a surge protector when attaching the generator to a >television or computer. I used a simple surge protector. If I do it again, >I think I will use my office Tripp lite UPS. The manual describes the >installation of a double throw transfer switch in order to hook the >generator into the main electrical supply. > >- Jed When bringing up a load on any generator, you should turn on one piece of electrical equipment at a time, let the engine speed adjust, and turn on the next. Large shifts in the load damage the oil seals, and cause warping of the head and block. Don't even think about hooking this onto your mains. A long enough drop in the engine speed will cause inductive motors (like in your refrigerator) to lock up, and flame on within seconds. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 08:45:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07118; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:40:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:40:28 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <15.10e746b.25d2f251 aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:39:45 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: little eden.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"B-iTK.0.7l1.yXPeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, > Good work, JLN. Now the scope pictures make sense. The panel by itself > presents a somewhat capacitive load evidenced by the fact that the current > leads the voltage. The only "problem" is now your apparent gain has risen > to about 950%!!!!!!!!! That is, your scope math trace has a Mean > measurement of 375.9 watts for a DC input of only 39.47 watts. > >....... > Good luck. > > > Scott R. Little Thanks for your quick answer, following your remark about a possible x10 error in the calibration of the Scope input ( nobody is perfect )... I have checked again the CH2 setup experimentaly, so, I have connected the Tektronix Digital multimeter (TX1-DMM) in series with the 10.6 ohms resistor used for measuring the current on the GDP Panel and on a DC power supply. I have also connected the oscilloscope probe (x10) CH2 in parallel with this resistor. The measured current with the TX1-DMM was 1.002 A The measured current with the THS720P oscilloscope was 0.988 A So, this confirms definitely that the CH2 is WELL CONFIGURED... Ouf ... :-) You will find the scope picture and all details about this simple test at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/images/curcheck.jpg This also been added in the main GDP test page at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm More tests results, soon... Stay tuned Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 10:09:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06640; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:07:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:07:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209130723.007af100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 13:07:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Portable generator In-Reply-To: <20000209161041468.AAA299 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GDQAg1.0.bd1.apQeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >You may have a good reason to take the thing back and ask for an exchange, >Jed. Since the company didn't supply the necessary instructions for care, >you have probably violated any warranty that came with it, and shortened the >lifespan of the motor, somewhat. Oh, I wouldn't worry about it. It seems to be chugging along okay. There is auto-cutoff if the oil gets too low . . . But it's too dirty in this case. >Don't even think about hooking this onto your mains. I was thinking about asking an electrician if I can hook it into the gas furnace, with proper transfer switch. Someone here suggested I make an electric cord with two male ends, but I would not want anything lying around my house which might electrocute a child. A typical gas/oil furnace consumes ~760 watts according to the generator manual. >A >long enough drop in the engine speed will cause inductive motors (like in >your refrigerator) to lock up, and flame on within seconds. Well, when the engine speed slowed down before, because it was almost out of gas, it cut off automatically. It was turning on and off before it sputtered out. All in all, dealing with this thing has been a visceral confrontation with real-life-scale energy. Very interesting. It gives you a sense of the mountains of coal and oceans of oil our civilization burns. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 10:29:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14017; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:28:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:28:13 -0800 Message-ID: <030001bf7333$a82b4e80$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Sparberino) Pair Production in Electrolysis Cells? Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:25:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"2N8kw2.0.xQ3.y6Reu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > > When normal H2 burns, the volume decreases also. ( H2 + 1/2 O2 = H2O) Notice that 1.5 molar > volumes go to 1 volume. > Yes, but, Browns Gas, IF made up of a mix of H2 + O2 and water molecules made "bonding neutral" by attached Light Lepton Pairs (so that molecular bonding is negated) at atmospheric pressure can condense with a volume contraction of about a factor of 1200 ie., ~1.2 liters down to a milliliter creating a millitorr vacuum pressure. Also in the electrolysis cell heat/material balance if the off-vapor is weighed and one assumes that the heat necessary for evaporating that quantity of H2O or D2O was put into the cell, then actually the cell will show OU by that amount of error. IOW, a closed cell with a recombiner that shows OU, probably is OU due to Light Lepton CF or Quasineutron-Quasidineutron Heat Effects. If the LLs are not Neutrinos, they are large, radius R = kq^2/Energy ~ = 7.4 nanometers for a 0.2 ev Lepton, and if expelled in a CF-Fission reaction could give up enormous energy by way of collisions in a very short path length before the annihilate with their charge conjugate, releasing about 0.5 ev as IR photons. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 12:44:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30212; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:37:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:37:09 -0800 Message-ID: <38A1D0B3.AEBA0955 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 15:40:19 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ball Lightning Explanation References: <38A095B1.B7492E47 bellsouth.net> <38A0E982.89CE0EC@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"os-ST3.0.-N7.r_Seu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Taylor J. Smith" wrote: > Hi Terry, > > Regarding your other post, it's a nice monolith, > but does it deserve the opening strains of > "Thus Spake Zarathrustra"? I attempted to have the "reply to" line direct replies to vortexb; but, alas, the software worked differently than I thought. > Regarding this post, I personally watched a > ball of lightning slowly come through the glass > of my patio door. Would this ability to > penetrate glass result from being a cloud of > "burning silicon"? Sure! As long as the molecules in the ball lightning did not try to occupy the same space as those in the door. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 12:46:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32284; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:42:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:42:57 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:53:51 -0500 Message-ID: <20000209205351015.AAA285 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"aQ-dk.0.Lu7.G5Teu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis writes: >Hi Scott and All, > >Thanks to all for your interesting comments, I have reconducted a new serie >of tests about the GDP panel, according to the Scott Little advices, see the >latest results at : > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm > >All constructive comments are welcome. > >Best Regards, > >Jean-Louis Naudin Had another look, and noticed the assymmetrical power measurement gif. The gif is basically a block diagram, and in the actual photos, the two lamps are placed off to one side of the panel. Is the side that is measuring more power closer to the panel than the other side? Is the side with the larger power measurement in the same direction as the external ion flow? If this was so, I would suggest that the lamp is acting like a "quench tube", taking in ions, and adding it to the measured power. It also seems to me that you should be able to get rid of the extra resistors, run the power back through another transformer to step it down, rectify it, and start charging batteries. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 12:57:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03720; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:53:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:53:25 -0800 Message-ID: <38A1D483.2EDCC67D bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 15:56:35 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Portable generator References: <3.0.6.32.20000209130723.007af100 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4izDr1.0.zv.5FTeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I was thinking about asking an electrician if I can hook it into the gas > furnace, with proper transfer switch. Someone here suggested I make an > electric cord with two male ends, but I would not want anything lying > around my house which might electrocute a child. A typical gas/oil furnace > consumes ~760 watts according to the generator manual. Check the blower motor locked rotor current to be sure that the inrush will not exceed the generator capacity. Be sure to open your main breaker whenever you use it. Otherwise you could put 20kV on the distribution line by reverse feeding the GA Power transformer. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 13:06:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08433; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:04:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:04:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209160428.00798720 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:04:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Portable generator In-Reply-To: <38A1D483.2EDCC67D bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000209130723.007af100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vtZH91.0.h32.gPTeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Be sure to open your main breaker whenever you use it. Otherwise >you could put 20kV on the distribution line by reverse feeding >the GA Power transformer. That is what the double throw switch is for. It ensures that the device is hooked to the power company or the generator, but never both. See: http://www.nbmc.com/gentran/ For emergency generator double throw switches. I am afraid they are too expensive for my needs. See: http://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/training/slfstudy/12_saswit/hddthss.htm . . . for a definition of the term. Nevertheless, the manual also says to be sure the main breaker is off, and I would, of course. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 13:14:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11533; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:11:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:11:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209161141.007a0c50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:11:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Portable generator In-Reply-To: <38A1D483.2EDCC67D bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000209130723.007af100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aOKr8.0.3q2.TWTeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From http://nbmc.com/gentran/20216.html, here are the specs for a $336, 5000 watt double thow switch: Gen/Tran Transfer Switch 20216 5000 watts maximum 6 Single Pole Circuit 1 Double Pole Circuit 40A Maximum Combined Loads 125 Volts 20A Maximum Combined Loads 250 Volts 15A Maximum Load per Circuit From Generator 20A Maximum Load per Circuit From House Load Center 12 Gauge Minimum 4 wire Cord size 18" x 3/4" attached conduit L14-20 (NEMA) Power Inlet Type PB20 is Optional Power Inlet Box NEMA 1 indoor Cabinet Type Operates the emergency circuits in your house from your portable generator Quick and easy to operate, plug the generator cord into the Gen/Tran, start the generator, throw the Gen/Tran switches from "LINE" to "GEN" and you have power The Double throw switch action of the Gen/Tran keeps the generator isolated from the utility line at all times Prevents feedback to utility lines U.L. listed and CSA Certified Installation by professional electrician recommended - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 13:44:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24737; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:41:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:41:02 -0800 Message-ID: <031201bf734e$997099c0$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production in Water Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:38:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FYT6w.0.R26.jxTeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A quote: "In liquid water, the infrared spectrum shows a broad absorption band near 3 microns, which is attributed to a characteristic vibration frequency of the hydrogen bond." That's about where a 0.4 ev (3.1 micron) photon could be converted to a Light Lepton Pair. Most of the IR absorption data for Hydrogenous materials show about the same thing. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 14:07:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31558; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:01:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:01:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:05:49 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: George Holz cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Phase.. Naudin's Page In-Reply-To: <007b01bf7292$9ca2f460$0c6cd626 varisys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DXHq71.0._i7.VEUeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Just a thought. Without going into a lot of detail, many high voltage generation methods wind up giving us a nice plate full of lead and lag and inductances, rising and falling waveforms, and often rapidly collapsing magnetic fields. Rather than spend a lot of time and band width in supposition and 'he said,..... maybe it's ..., only if.... Why don't we ask for ... in a nice way, and wait for a clean measurement? Jean has done a grand service in many ways 1] He actually works with hardware... which, to an exprimentalist ... myself included, goes a long way. 2] He is taking measurements 3] My understanding is he is using equipment which is recognized as good 4] He is writing up the work and taking PICTURES! 5] ....AND: He is trying to convey it for all to see. I say... Good Job! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 14:40:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13609; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:37:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:37:02 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:36:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6mq3ass6l21kh9hebnbdaj5u15k2rllcf8 4ax.com> References: <15.10e746b.25d2f251 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <15.10e746b.25d2f251 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA13585 Resent-Message-ID: <"Y5c923.0.ZK3.DmUeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:39:45 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: [snip] >Thanks for your quick answer, following your remark about a possible x10 >error in the calibration of the Scope input ( nobody is perfect )... I have >checked again the CH2 setup experimentaly, so, I have connected the Tektronix >Digital multimeter (TX1-DMM) in series with the 10.6 ohms resistor used for >measuring the current on the GDP Panel and on a DC power supply. I have also >connected the oscilloscope probe (x10) CH2 in parallel with this resistor. > >The measured current with the TX1-DMM was 1.002 A >The measured current with the THS720P oscilloscope was 0.988 A How did 100 mA suddenly become 1 A? > >So, this confirms definitely that the CH2 is WELL CONFIGURED... Ouf ... :-) > >You will find the scope picture and all details about this simple test at : > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/images/curcheck.jpg > >This also been added in the main GDP test page at : > > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm Another question: Given that the panel capacitance is only about 100 pF, what percentage is added by the stray capacitance and inductance of the wiring etc., and could this stray impedance account for the scope showing a different phase relationship than actually exists at the panel terminals? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 14:42:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14470; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:39:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:39:51 -0800 Message-ID: <005901bf734f$58c3c9a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <15.10e746b.25d2f251 aol.com> Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:45:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"yny1F.0.yX3.toUeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jean-Louis, We seem to have arrived at a point where the current values and phase relations seem to be showing large power flows. The only reference point for the voltage, however, is the single HV probe. Is the probe output impedance matched to the scope input impedance? A DC test of the probe using a high voltage source should be easy to arrange and would show any possible scaling errors. This is a very interesting experiment. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 16:08:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16168; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:06:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:06:52 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000209180646.012284cc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:06:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <20000209155752765.AAA80 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qzJDJ.0.Wy3.S4Weu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:57 AM 2/9/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >I've never done any HV work, and have only read bits here and there about >this sort of thing. Is there any danger of explosion in your proposed setup >that would require the use of a blast shield? No. JLN doesn't have any big energy storage devices (e.g. capacitors) in his circuit. He's using an automotive spark coil, for example. The worst that could happen is that he'd burn out one of the resistors, it would break in half, and then sparks would jump between the broken halves (provided they didn't separate too far). Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 16:25:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23530; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:23:28 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Portable generator Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 19:34:24 -0500 Message-ID: <20000210003424140.AAA275 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3xDpx.0.al5.0KWeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >From http://nbmc.com/gentran/20216.html, here are the specs for a $336, >5000 watt double thow switch: You could do it a lot cheaper with a knife switch, but you would have to put it in a box under lock and key to keep it safe. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 16:30:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26187; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:28:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:28:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000209182838.01224400 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:28:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <15.10e746b.25d2f251 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rBBj02.0.-O6.eOWeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:39 AM 2/9/00 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >The measured current with the TX1-DMM was 1.002 A >The measured current with the THS720P oscilloscope was 0.988 A Jean-Louis, it certainly looks like you are measuring the current correctly. Now I assume you're checking the voltage somehow. It occurs to me that you also might have crude calorimetric test data available: If your power measurements are correct, your high-voltage high-frequency drive circuit is delivering about 375 watts to the glow discharge panel. In other words, your V*I measurements indicate that 375 watts of net power is flowing from your drive circuit to the panel, where it must be dissipated largely as heat (with a small fraction radiated as light and other EM radiation). Judging from the appearance of the panel in your photographs, I would expect the panel to withstand that power dissipation for no more than 5 minutes before the plastic parts begin to melt. Does the panel begin melting after ~5 minutes of operation? If not, does it become noticeably warm? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 17:42:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17821; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:40:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:40:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:41:10 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: another EM question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000208140147.0121e444 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"aAr8B3.0.IM4.MSXeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My guess is no, not if toroid is perfect, with no leakage fields Hank On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Scott Little wrote: > > A perfect toroid energized with an AC current sits in a vacuum chamber. > Nearby, outside the toroid, we release a single electron. Will this > electron be oscillated back and forth by the changing A field outside the > toroid? > > Thanks, > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 17:52:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19471; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:50:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:50:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:50:02 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Portable generator In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000209084833.0079dc50 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_lwCC3.0.nl4.2bXeu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Glad you on the grid again? Hank On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Hank Scudder reported that his daughter's generator died after three days > of use. Perhaps it needed oil. I just received the operator's manual for > this el cheapo generator of mind. It says you're supposed to change the oil > "after the first two (2) operating hours and every 50 operating hours > thereafter." > > I wish I had seen this before I used the thing, but they forgot to pack a > manual in the box. I am probably the only person in Atlanta who actually > reads -- and enjoys! -- product manuals. > > It describes all the dire things that can happen if you abuse the machine. > It says you should use a surge protector when attaching the generator to a > television or computer. I used a simple surge protector. If I do it again, > I think I will use my office Tripp lite UPS. The manual describes the > installation of a double throw transfer switch in order to hook the > generator into the main electrical supply. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 17:52:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19252; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:49:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:49:35 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:00:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20000210020008859.AAA228 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"AVZ-P.0.Xi4.eaXeu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >No. JLN doesn't have any big energy storage devices (e.g. capacitors) in >his circuit. Thanks, I didn't know if a cap that size would go off like a poof, a firecracker or grenade at those voltages. I've never actually seen one go off, although I've got a couple around here that are half as big as my forearm, and I've always given them wide berth while using them and a great deal of respect in handling them. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 23:10:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA03965; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:08:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:08:53 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <4c.1852cc3.25d3bddd aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:08:13 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"U3wW51.0.sz.4Gceu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott , > > The measured current with the TX1-DMM was 1.002 A > The measured current with the THS720P oscilloscope was 0.988 A > > So, this confirms definitely that the CH2 is WELL CONFIGURED... The same check has also been done for the channel 1 (Voltage), and this has confirmed that the setup for the channel 1 was also correct. See all details at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/prbcheck.htm You will find also the data sheet of my HV Probe (GE3830) ( this is a new probe from Jan 2000 ) Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 23:14:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA06693; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:13:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:13:00 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <55.1ec03df.25d3bebc aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:11:56 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id XAA06579 Resent-Message-ID: <"OdxQ7.0.Pe1.uJceu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 09/02/00 23:40:07 Paris, Madrid, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au a écrit : > >The measured current with the TX1-DMM was 1.002 A > >The measured current with the THS720P oscilloscope was 0.988 A > > How did 100 mA suddenly become 1 A? > 100mA ???? Have you seen the picture ? This is 1.002 A http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/images/curcheck.jpg Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 23:21:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA07455; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:20:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:20:48 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <6f.ef4360.25d3c0a7 aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:20:07 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA07430 Resent-Message-ID: <"N4xIc.0.Pq1.FRceu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 09/02/00 23:42:25 Paris, Madrid, george varisys.com a écrit : > The only > reference point for the voltage, however, is > the single HV probe. Is the probe output > impedance matched to the scope input > impedance? A DC test of the probe using > a high voltage source should be easy to > arrange and would show any possible scaling > errors. > This is a very interesting experiment. > Regards, > George Holz Hi George, This is done.... :-) see at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/prbcheck.htm Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 01:32:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28655; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:31:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:31:33 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:31:26 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000209084833.0079dc50 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Portable generator Resent-Message-ID: <"v3ekm.0.c_6.qLeeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The manual describes the >installation of a double throw transfer switch in order to hook the >generator into the main electrical supply. > >- Jed I'm glad that you mentioned this Jed. If you hook up the generator to the secondary of the transformer it will charge the primary of the transformer with potentially disasterous results for a lineman. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 03:09:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA12551; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:09:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:09:05 -0800 Message-ID: <036101bf73bf$7c6b0740$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Supercritical Water and CF/OU Effects in Pd? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:07:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF737C.5CF59300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"98RQp3.0.143.Hnfeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF737C.5CF59300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For your contemplation, Edmund. Pd wires in a heated SS pipe containing supercritical water with K2CO3? Around 960 Kelvin is the peak for 3.1 micron IR radiation. http://jcbmac.chem.brown.edu/myl/soln/supercritWater.html Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF737C.5CF59300 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="supercritical water.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="supercritical water.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://jcbmac.chem.brown.edu/myl/soln/supercritWater.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://jcbmac.chem.brown.edu/myl/soln/supercritWater.html Modified=6046FF0CBE73BF01A2 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF737C.5CF59300-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 10:33:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26100; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:29:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:29:32 -0800 Message-ID: <037c01bf73fc$f4eba520$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Good Stuff foir Converts Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:27:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF73B9.D11C4CA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"r3-sv2.0.kN6.CEmeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF73B9.D11C4CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websites.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF73B9.D11C4CA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Web Sites in Inorganic Chemical Thermodynamics.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Web Sites in Inorganic Chemical Thermodynamics.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websites.htm [DOC#5#6#7] BASEURL=http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websiteT.htm [DOC#5#6#8] BASEURL=http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websiteL.htm [DOC#5#9] BASEURL=http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websiteR.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websites.htm Modified=80232C9AFC73BF0198 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF73B9.D11C4CA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:05:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29781; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:01:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:01:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000210140124.01330bdc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:01:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <4c.1852cc3.25d3bddd aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FyfLy2.0.EH7.yZneu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:08 AM 2/10/00 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >The same check has also been done for the channel 1 (Voltage), and this has >confirmed that the setup for the channel 1 was also correct. You're doing all the right things with these checks, Jean-Louis. If it weren't for the 950% gain in your circuit, I'd say you had the measurements exactly right. However, let us continue our diligence a bit longer. Does the glow discharge panel begin melting after a few minutes of operation? It should if your AC drive circuit is really delivering 375 watts to it. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:16:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28243; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:57:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:57:22 -0800 Message-ID: <004a01bf7400$eb8a61c0$cf637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: Subject: Little Big Bang? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"3Q2G3.0.Cv6.XWneu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/littlebigbang000209.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:18:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02785; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:14:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:14:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210151408.0079c100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:14:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Good Stuff foir Converts Cc: In-Reply-To: <037c01bf73fc$f4eba520$fd441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BXxcv1.0.Mh.Umneu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websites.htm That's an amazing collection of stuff! Everything from conveters to an on-line dictionary of thermodynamic terms. At last, the Internet is maturing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:32:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10046; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:30:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:30:25 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:29:33 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA10014 Resent-Message-ID: <"1i8bC.0.qS2.X_neu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 10/02/00 21:05:36 Paris, Madrid, little eden.com a écrit : > You're doing all the right things with these checks, Jean-Louis. If it > weren't for the 950% gain in your circuit, I'd say you had the measurements > exactly right. However, let us continue our diligence a bit longer. > > Does the glow discharge panel begin melting after a few minutes of > operation? It should if your AC drive circuit is really delivering 375 > watts to it. > > Thanks Scott, for your encouragements, The GDP tests are always a bit weirds, the power seems real and not an artifact, but the GDP panel remains cold.... The Coil is cold and the BUZ11 only a tiny warm... If you read the Roth patent about the OAUGDP : << US5669583: Method and apparatus for covering bodies with a uniform glow discharge plasma and applications thereof >> at : http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn10=US05669583 You will read in the patent at line 25 column 8 : << If the RF frequency is so low that both the ions and the electrons can reach the boundaries and recombine, the particle lifetimes will be short and the plasma will either not initiate or form a few coarse filamentary discharges between the plate. If the applied frequency is in narrow band in which the ions oscillate between the electrodes, they do not have time to reach either boundary during a half period of oscillation and be confined for long times. >> This is one of the keys for a successfull cold plasma skin, the frequency must be tuned so as the glow plasma is sustained between the wire. This can be easily done by tuning the frequency with the potentiometer P1 ( 220k ). As you tune the frequency, you will see the plasma skin begins to glow progressively on the all the surface of the panel. Do you think that the high level of ions excitation between the wires can be the source of this excess of power ? Does this excess power is directly converted into chemical energy ( Ozone generation and strong emission of Nitrogen oxides ) ? As you may notice in my latest tests, I have placed my GDP panel in a closed plastic box, because the emission of the Nitrogen oxides are very strong and unbearable... Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:48:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19437; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:45:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:45:09 -0800 Message-ID: <20000210204435.99236.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.130] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little Big Bang? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:44:35 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5u6on3.0.cl4.KDoeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why science even thinks the Infinite Universe has and edge or an age is the same voodoo practiced by our ancestors thinking they saw the edge of the Earth. And it has to be just about the stupidest thing I ever heard of, and defies mathmatics at that. You tell me what happens at the edge of the universe and I'll tell you what happens when you fall off the edge of the Earth. The bubble effect is light itself traveling through fluid space and is "The Pearl of Wisdom" described in my theory. And all is backed up by top astrophysics in reports of the gravity constant by Bachall and Perlmutter, and in Dr. Vera Rubin's stating scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs in the ABC NEWS Transcript I have posted at my website. Looks like I am off to Australia to do a Whirlpower Workshop will Callum Coats. The invitation is in and official. And proof of Whirlpower has been found in unrelated test at the Max Plank Institute, and we have built the first whirlpools ever built by man. But man is far to ignorant and backwards for the most part to even see or understand these events. Same thing happend when the Wright Bros. first flew. It took years to sink into the thick old monkey skull. This technology of computers and the information revolution even the brightest Big Blue minds never saw coming from those kids in the valley. It is always the same old story. :) David Dennard http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: "Ed Wall" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Little Big Bang? >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:27 -0500 > >http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/littlebigbang000209.html > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 13:47:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14951; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:45:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:45:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:31:08 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200002102131.QAA15635 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: JL Naudin's GDP & Testatika? Resent-Message-ID: <"Z7LhE1.0.Xf3.c5peu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If we consider that there is very likely a working and multiply reproduced free energy technology, in the form of the Methernita Testatika machines, then it only stands to reason that sooner or later someone will find a simpler experiment embodying the core principle of those machines. I say it's likely this technology is for real, because several demonstrations have been given by Methernita; and the community expends great energy in constructing numerous such machines, over a range of sizes, with the stated intention of providing electrical energy for their community. So now, we can speculate, and this is the time to do so, before further examination proves otherwise (!), that Jean-Louis has come upon the core reality of Testatika power source. Both systems, after all, work at high air-ionizing voltages. Perhaps the famous 'large cans' in the Testatika machines contain the equivalent of GDP arrays, powered the the Wimhurst type rotors and a resonant LC to give a frequency to the electrical tension, thus similar to GDP drive source, if quite a bit more baroque. Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:06:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21904; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:59:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:59:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000210155947.0132d5cc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:59:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"a3VJY.0.AM5.yIpeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:29 PM 2/10/00 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >The GDP tests are always a bit weirds, the power seems real and not an >artifact, but the GDP panel remains cold.... The Coil is cold and the BUZ11 >only a tiny warm... I was afraid of that. I don't know how it is happening but my present theory is that your current measurement is 10x too high. I base this estimate on the data you presented most recently when you had both scope probes polarized the same way so that the power measurement represented the power flowing FROM the AC drive circuit TO the panel. The observed phase angle between current and voltage tells us the ratio of the capacitive reactance to the resistance. When you work out the numbers, only when you use 1/10 of your reported current does the calculated capacitance of the panel (130 pF) match reasonably well with your measured capacitance (115 pF). If I use the reported current value withouto dividing by 10, I get a panel capacitance of 1300 pF, which is impossible, no? >Do you think that the high level of ions excitation between the wires can be >the source of this excess of power ? Nothing at the panel can be the SOURCE of this excess power. Remember, your scope is telling us that the 375 watts is flowing FROM the AC drive circuit TO the panel. Therefore, if there is excess power in your device it must be generated by your AC drive circuit. >Does this excess power is directly converted into chemical energy ( Ozone >generation and strong emission of Nitrogen oxides ) ? According to my CRC tables, all nitrogen oxides and ozone require energy input to be formed from N2 and O2. Thus, the creation of these compounds could indeed explain where some of the power flowing to the panel is going (instead of heat). Perhaps it is time to try a totally different method of current measurement. Can you afford one of the new clip-on current probes that measure both AC and DC currents? Fluke makes one and so does TEK. They work OK at 6 kHz. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:17:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28498; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:16:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:16:22 -0800 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:15:46 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:02:14 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:51:54 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-reply-to: To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:15:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2424ZYIBONYGZ X400-MTS-identifier: [;64517101200002/4467606 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"aprZh1.0.5z6.rYpeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis, >Does this excess power is directly converted into chemical energy ( Ozone >generation and strong emission of Nitrogen oxides ) ? >As you may notice in my latest tests, I have placed my GDP panel in a >closed plastic box, because the emission of the Nitrogen oxides are very >strong and unbearable... Just as some chemical processes are exothermic or endothermic, some chemical processes create electricity (lead acid battery), and some consume electricity (electrolosis). As you have indicated the plasma is inducing a chemical reaction, the creation of Nitrogen oxides. But perhaps instead of consuming electricity it is creating it. Perhaps the plasma is the catalyst for the chemical reaction and the chemical reaction creates the electrical charge that is somehow being induced back into the insulated wires of the panel. Can your closed plastic box be purged & sealed with one of the other noble gasses. Or if your closed plastic box is already sealed does the excess power generation deminish as the reaction material is consumed. Great work, it is truly amazing that for the first time in history the entire world can watch over the shoulder of a true scientist and watch marvels unfold. Instead of being hidden in secrecy. This is better than watching TV any day. Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:41:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15699; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:36:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:36:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004501bf7418$44ff4380$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:43:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Rh7Lb3.0.Ar3.-rpeu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jean-Louis, Good work with the voltage test, any voltage measurement problem with scaling is now ruled out. I can think of only one more possible problem in the power measurement. Could the HV probe be introducing a frequency dependent phase shift in the voltage measurement? The probe bandwidth spec. suggests that it should not do so at 5 kHz, but the measured power is so strange that perhaps the phase shift should be verified. You could connect a 5 kHz source to both channels of the scope, one through a standard probe and the other through the HV probe and compare the phase and waveform differences. Testing at a higher frequency, say 50 kHz, and with a square wave source would also be informative. - You wrote: >Do you think that the high level of ions excitation between the wires can be >the source of this excess of power ? In 25 years of designing plasma panels for electronic displays, I have never seen the discharge generate power. My work with air discharges, however, was not extensive. - >As you may notice in my latest tests, I have placed my GDP panel in a closed >plastic box, because the emission of the Nitrogen oxides are very strong and >unbearable... - Be careful with the fumes, they could also contain decomposition products from insulation breakdown, which could be quite dangerous. Silicone insulation is generally preferred in the presence of discharges since it degrades to SiO2 on the surface which resists further decomposition. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 15:14:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17407; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:10:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:10:46 -0800 Message-ID: <38A3457D.8ACC5E75 cwnet.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:11:38 -0800 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Naudin's glow discharge device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W6zkr3.0.vF4.sLqeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings, I have been building variations of JLN's device for over a week now (3 in all, with 2 more in progress), and would like to share a couple of observations with those who are considering building a cold plasma device along these lines. First, if you have high voltage skills, or should I say, ONLY if you high voltage skills, please try this - as some anomaly is a definite possibility. But be aware of the warnings that JLN has published on his website including ozone production and the obvious hv dangers, but also this has just now been discovered. The plasma panel produces a surprising amount of radiation. While waiting for some new parts to come in, I was testing my third rig with an Oritech data logging radiation monitor. To my surprise this baby is putting out about 3685 microrem per hour. I've probably been giving myself an extra year's worth of exposure (50 mRem) while working on this project. This seems much higher than I would have suspected from the voltage alone and I am now trying to find out what is causing this. I have NOT achieved the stunning (apparent) overunity results of Jean Louis, but have had some evidence of OU and have been trying to build a self runner. Like many tinkerers and Tesla coil enthusiasts who have a lot of cannibalized parts siting around, I strayed from the recommended parts list from the start. As often happens, now I wish that I had built his exact design first as a reference design. You can make up you own mind, as I suspect that everyone interested in this has lots of similar goodies. A self sustaining design can be VERY dangerous as it can involve high voltage caps. So far I have achieved hints that a self runner is possible, but I keep arcing out caps and transformers. I have been able to get what seemed like a long bit of self running (probably 20 seconds) but it was most likely just from the caps discharging. Now I have more parts on order. Two other things that may be helpful for those tempted to stray from the recommended parts list. Use a regulated output transformer in your power supply. I quickly burned out my first linear supply and while waiting for a new one I ran the ignition coil directly off a variac for a brief stint. Thankfully, I tested the coil early on and found an alarming heat buildup. Many of these auto coils are oil-filled and might explode if they get too hot, so definitely stay under 2 amps. Also, if you are not the world's best solderer you can buy the 555 timing circuits ready made (do a web search for 555). I have also tried driving a number of different output mosfets with an am transmitter and this seems to do ok (I was trying to isolate the timing circuit completely.) I believe the key to the surprising output is in the bifilar windings of the panel itself and not in the fluorescents. You definitely need a load of some kind, but my best results have been obtained with a mercury arc lamp in series (mounted in the center of my solenoid). Also my best coil is wound as a solenoid rather than a panel, but it doesn't seem like this it is a big factor. Anyone got any theories on what is going on here? More later, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 15:22:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21268; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:18:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210181839.00799210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:18:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Naudin's heat insufficient - maybe try a little calorimetry? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"IIC9W2.0.EC5.OTqeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have to agree with Scott Little. Intuitively, if there are 375 watts going into this gadget it should be getting hot! It is very strange if it is cool to the touch. (I assume we are talking about the "Glow Plasma Discharge Panel" shown in members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm. If we are not, I am Lost in Space.) Okay, there is some chemical decomposition instead, but with 375 watts it should disintegrate pretty quickly, I suppose. You need good ventilation!!! At some point or other, rather than doing all this measuring of electric currents, perhaps Naudin should consider doing a little elementary calorimetry to bolster the results. I would put the whole thing in Styrofoam box with a container of water on top of the equipment, and see how hot the water gets in 10 minutes. Of course problems with the input power measurements would still be an issue, but at least there would be some confirmation of the output. I do not understand much about how this gadget works, but I suppose you can measure input power at someplace back in the chain, like in front of the power supply, where few people would disagree with it. (I mean you put the power supply in there too, if it fits.) Lessee . . . 375 watts in 10 minutes = 225,000 joules = 54,000 calories. I would put a liter of water in a plastic bag and drape it over the Discharge Panel and the lights. I think the thermal mass of the equipment would not amount to much, and a Styrofoam box starting at room temperature is a pretty good insulator, so if you have 1 liter of water in there, it should go up 40 or 50 degrees. If the power is only 1/10 as much as you think, it will be more like 5 degrees. The difference would be easy to spot. I have not tried to figure in the power supply overhead which will contribute to the heating, but anyway, this indicates the general idea. This is the simplest form of calorimetry. You want to do it for only 10 minutes before significant heat leaks from the box. You can calibrate easily with a joule heater. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 15:48:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00579; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:46:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:46:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000210174703.0132e610 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:47:03 -0600 To: jonesb9 cwnet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device In-Reply-To: <38A3457D.8ACC5E75 cwnet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1CfCA1.0.v8.Ytqeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:11 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >While waiting for some new parts to come in, I was testing my >third rig with an Oritech data logging radiation monitor. To my >surprise this baby is putting out about 3685 microrem per hour. >Anyone got any theories on what is going on here? Quite likely is electrical interference on your radiation detector. It's a common problem because the amplifiers on radiation detectors are usually pretty sensitive. One thing you can try is a smallish sheet of 1/16" thick Pb between the glow device and the detector, one which should stop the radiation (assuming soft x-rays) but won't greatly interfere with radio emissions from your circuit...say a piece just big enough to completely shadow the detector from your glow device. If the radiation signal is unaffected by the Pb, it's not radiation but electrical noise. On the other hand, if 1/16" of Pb completely stops the radiation signal, then you DO have soft x-rays! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 16:35:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA12493; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:16:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:16:42 -0800 Message-ID: <38A354F2.24A89CAD cwnet.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:17:40 -0800 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device References: <3.0.1.32.20000210174703.0132e610@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UVr4r1.0.733.gJreu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Quite likely is electrical interference on your radiation detector. It's a > common problem because the amplifiers on radiation detectors are usually > pretty sensitive. One thing you can try is a smallish sheet of 1/16" thick > Pb between the glow device and the detector, one which should stop the > radiation (assuming soft x-rays)...... Thanks, Scott. It turns out to be electrical interference. I had previously tested my radiation monitor in front of tv monitors, hv power supplies etc. and it never registered anything abnormal, plus I had even shielded it against the plasma coil with some foil to prevent arcing, but now with some lead shielding it seems we have answered that question....to my relief! Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 16:44:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14741; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:21:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:21:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20000211002141.18918.qmail nwcst283.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 10 Feb 00 19:21:39 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA14709 Resent-Message-ID: <"CZ8to2.0.Ac3.POreu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, I've noticed that Mr.Naudin does not publish any decent INPUT power data, just the 30.1V 1.38A. If the input waveforms are not DC then the power input can be very different from the calculated 41.54 Watts. Horace P.S. For the uninitiated: The real power delivered is dependent on duty cycle and phase angle between current and voltage. To calculate the power levels correctly you must first multiply voltage and current and then integrate NOT integrate and then multiply ! Using average Volt and Amp meters to calculate power is the MOST COMMON mistake, almost always leading to wrong results on non-pure-DC waveforms. Remember the MRA ?! ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 17:53:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04867; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:39:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:39:20 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:38:24 EST Subject: Mengoli et al. (1998) in JEAC To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q8UXa1.0.yB1.8Xseu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: About that article by G. Mengoli et al., "Calorimetry close to the boiling temperature of the D2O/Pd electrolytic system," in J. ELECTROANALYTICAL CHEM. 444 (1998), pp. 155-167, summarized by Jed on December 24, 1999. I have a copy now and a question for Jed or anyone else who's read the article: Can one tell what the raw, uncorrected voltage into the cell was, and if so, how? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 18:21:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19663; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:18:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:18:47 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:23:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: another EM question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JPClr2.0.8p4.76teu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is an interesting question but has little application in the real world. How far is the electron away? How big is the toroid... how much juice? On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, hank scudder wrote: > My guess is no, not if toroid is perfect, with no leakage fields > Hank > > On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Scott Little wrote: > > > > > A perfect toroid energized with an AC current sits in a vacuum chamber. > > Nearby, outside the toroid, we release a single electron. Will this > > electron be oscillated back and forth by the changing A field outside the > > toroid? > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 20:56:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA08136; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:54:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:54:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000210225536.00728488 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:55:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: another EM question In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ryzE01.0.x-1.sNveu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:23 PM 2/10/00 -0500, John Schnurer wrote: >This is an interesting question but has little application in the >real world. How far is the electron away? >How big is the toroid... how much juice? It doesn't matter, John. I am interested in determining in principle whether or not the electron will be moved. Here's a little more explanation for my question. Consider two loops of wire that are everywhere nearly touching each other except that one of the loops passes through the toroid's center hole while the other dodges around the exterior of the toroid. When the toroid is energized, a huge current will flow in the threaded loop and zero current will flow in the other loop...of course. Now consider the fate of a free, ballistic electron somewhere near the exterior of the toroid, for example right beside where these two loops are close to each other. This lone electron doesn't have a long train of companions in a wire (that either passes thru the center hole or doesn't) to herd it along...so how does it know which way to behave? Is it moved by the dA/dt like the electrons in the threaded loop?...or does it just sit there like the electrons in the not-threaded loop? Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 21:50:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA22575; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:38:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:38:53 -0800 Message-ID: <20000211053841.12359.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:38:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"SvRSP1.0.aW5.j1weu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I note that Naudin's measurements variously show: 1) V and I approximately 180 deg out of phase, after taking account of his connection directions and the arrow indicating polarity of the oscilloscope channels, near the top of his page. Referring to his circuit, this phasing means that power flows FROM the plasma loads back TO the transformer. 2) Later, with a slightly different connection, V and I are approxima- tely 45 deg out of phase in a sense that corresponds to the plamsa panel appearing as an RC combination. In this run, taking account of the connection direcitons, etc., the power flows FROM the trans- former TO the plasma panel. 3) In between, Naudin shows that the currents are not equal in the two wires connecting the transformer to the plasma load. >From these observations, I conclude that a relatively large current is flowing through stray capacitances. Of course, these capacitances do not show on the circuit diagrams, but they are present in real circuits, and AC currents flow through them. The higher the frequency, the larger these effects are. I suspect that the "wierd" effects will disappear once the circuit is rebuilt with a single, well defined ground, and measurements are taken with wespect to that ground. Plasmas are complex, but not "wierd". They obey the usual laws, though the complexity can make the analysis difficult to perform. Most plasmas are very dissipative. However, on occasion, one can arrange for a plasma to deliver some energy (that it has gained from some other energy source!) to a particular load. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 21:54:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27654; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:52:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:52:15 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF7411.6E5FC760.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:54:39 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2pj_X2.0.0m6.FEweu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday, February 10, 2000 2:00 PM, Scott Little [SMTP:little eden.com] wrote: > > Perhaps it is time to try a totally different method of current > measurement. Can you afford one of the new clip-on current probes that > measure both AC and DC currents? Fluke makes one and so does TEK. They > work OK at 6 kHz. > > How about an even easier way. Put a fuse in the circuit and see if it blows. Something like a .5A or .25A fuse should easily survive 100ma but not 1A. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 22:15:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00848; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:14:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:14:21 -0800 Message-ID: <20000211061414.24509.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: another EM question To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"yjpRl1.0.AD.zYweu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here's a little more explanation for my question. Consider two loops of >wire that are everywhere nearly touching each other except that one of the >loops passes through the toroid's center hole while the other dodges around >the exterior of the toroid. When the toroid is energized, a huge current >will flow in the threaded loop and zero current will flow in the other loop...of >course. > >Now consider the fate of a free, ballistic electron somewhere near the >exterior of the toroid, for example right beside where these two loops are >close to each other. This lone electron doesn't have a long train of >companions in a wire (that either passes thru the center hole or doesn't) >to herd it along...so how does it know which way to behave? Is it moved by >the dA/dt like the electrons in the threaded loop?...or does it just sit >there >like the electrons in the not-threaded loop? With just the electron and the torus, it is easy. The electron is accelerated by the local dA/dt. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now the hard part: When you put the wires in, you complicate the problem by adding gazillions of electrons and charged but fixed ions. They respond to dA/dt, too, and then when the gazillions of electrons move, their contribution to the electric field must be taken into account, too. In problems like this one we can approximate electrons in the metal wire as collisionless. (This approximation can be put on a rigorous absis, but that takes more than I am willing to write out here.) Then, the electron dynamics in the conducting wires simplifies to the principle that the electrons move so as to keep the electric field equal to zero in the metal. (No collisions = no resistance = no electric field in there.) For the wire loop that does not link (pass through the hole of) the torus, there is electric field in the space outside the wire, but the electrons in the wire move to neutralize the field inside the wire. This produces concentrations of electrons and electric charge on the surface, which corresponds to capacitance between the wire and its surroundings. Because this wire links no varying magnetic flux, the electric field is a potential field, i.e. there is no net force or potential change around any closed loop. Therefore, there is no current driven around this loop. There can be a force on a single free electron outside the wire, but inside the wire all the electrons "push on each other" and in the end the pushes around the loop cancel out. The electrons only make the small (capacitive) motions needed to keep the electric field out of the wire. For the wire that does link (pass through the hole of) the torus, the electrons again move to keep the electric field zero inside the wire. Now we also have a varying magnetic flux, and there is a non-zero work done on an electron that goes around the closed loop. Since there is a net around the loop, the electrons as a whole move around the loop. This is an electric current. We created a paradox for ourselves when I said to treat the wire resistance as zero and the electrons as collisonless for simplicity. How does the electric field stay zero in the wire if there is a changing magnetic flux through it making dA/dt have to be nonzero somewhere around the loop? the answer is that current in the wire increases up to exactly the value where it generates an equal and opposite magnetic flux. Thus, the current is not infinity, even though the (idealized) wire resistance is zero. This indeed is the behavior of a transformer with a shortcircuited secondary when the secondary omega*L/R is large. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 23:14:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA14927; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:10:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:10:56 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 02:10:19 EST Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA14864 Resent-Message-ID: <"jUQld3.0.0f3._Nxeu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 11/02/00 01:44:23 Paris, Madrid, horacex usa.net a écrit : > Dear Vo, > > I've noticed that Mr.Naudin does not publish any decent INPUT power data, > just > the 30.1V 1.38A. If the input waveforms are not DC then the power input > can > be very different from the calculated 41.54 Watts. > Hi Horace, The Input is pure DC, you may see in some pictures, a small photo of my DC power supply LCD Displays which shows the voltage and the current at the input of the GDP driver ( 30.1V DC 1.38A ). I have also measured the pulsed DC signal send to the coil ( see in my GDP page ). You may notice that the average power agree with the DC power input. Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 05:21:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12191; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 05:20:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 05:20:41 -0800 Message-ID: <20000211132034.11596.qmail nwcst293.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 11 Feb 00 08:20:34 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA12137 Resent-Message-ID: <"oQtb-3.0.K-2.co0fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't trust (scientificaly) your INPUT power data. - The 10ohm R5 resistor is too large to measure current accurately at 30V suply voltage - The R5/R4 ratio is too large for accurate current measurement - Q: is R5 always in the circuit, or only inserted during the current measurement ? - Sugg: What about graphing INPUT Power (Math = Ch1xCh2 ), just like you did with the output ... Respectfully, Horace JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > Dans un courrier daté du 11/02/00 01:44:23 Paris, Madrid, horacex usa.net a > écrit : > > > Dear Vo, > > > > I've noticed that Mr.Naudin does not publish any decent INPUT power data, > > just > > the 30.1V 1.38A. If the input waveforms are not DC then the power input > > can > > be very different from the calculated 41.54 Watts. > > > > Hi Horace, > > The Input is pure DC, you may see in some pictures, a small photo of my DC > power supply LCD Displays which shows the voltage and the current at the > input of the GDP driver ( 30.1V DC 1.38A ). > I have also measured the pulsed DC signal send to the coil ( see in my GDP > page ). You may notice that the average power agree with the DC power input. > > Best Regards > > Jean-Louis Naudin ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 06:34:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30305; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 06:32:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 06:32:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000211093222.007a3100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:32:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <20000211053841.12359.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NVEBa2.0.QP7._r1fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: I suspect that the "wierd" effects will disappear once the circuit is rebuilt . . . and measurements are taken with wespect to that ground. Ooo, dat waskely wabbit disappeared down da' hole in the ground! - Jed (with apologies to Elmer Fudd) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 07:34:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18919; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:32:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:32:25 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:43:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20000211154328406.AAA291 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"TA7kp1.0.Rd4.8k2fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >I don't trust (scientificaly) your INPUT power data. > >- The 10ohm R5 resistor is too large to measure current accurately at 30V >suply voltage >- The R5/R4 ratio is too large for accurate current measurement >- Q: is R5 always in the circuit, or only inserted during the current >measurement ? >- Sugg: What about graphing INPUT Power (Math = Ch1xCh2 ), just like you did >with the output ... > >Respectfully, >Horace Hi Horace, Perhaps you are looking at an older version of his webpage that is stored on your browser cache. Jean-Louis has updated the page and has a graph of the input power showing a more or less square wave DC input to the coil. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 07:56:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25947; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:52:17 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:03:18 -0500 Message-ID: <20000211160318484.AAA262 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"UxxRw.0.KL6.n03fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike S. writes: >Plasmas are complex, but not "wierd". They obey the usual laws, though the >complexity can make the analysis difficult to perform. Most plasmas are very >dissipative. However, on occasion, one can arrange for a plasma to deliver >some energy (that it has gained from some other energy source!) to a >particular load. I agree, and would also like to add that it has been found by the Princeton Plasma Physics group that one plasma can feed another depending on the position and orientation of the two. The plasma from the panel may be feeding the plasma in the light tubes with the extra power coming from the ambient air. It has also been found by two companies having proven commercial products that plasmas can be used to produce net power through the breakdown of complex molecules into highly refined burnable fuels. While the measurement of this device is producing strange results, I think that experimentation should continue. I'll dig out the refs and post them, but for now the two companies are Startech, and Santilli's group. I think that a good idea at this point would be for Jean-Louis to add a few extra feet of lead wire to all his components, and reposition them in varying configurations to determine what role proximity plays in the production of positive power measurements. This would help isolate the components that "need" to be close to one another for the effect to be maximized. It would also help determine if the power is in the EM form or in the static particle form. I would also recommend that Jean-Louis use some x-ray film, a radiation badge or some other form of warning to detect hazardous radiation emissions should they occur. The test proposed by Scott to Jones Beene is not to my satisfaction. A microwave detector might also be advisable, in case there are resonant cavities being formed that gather electrons and collapse. Simply setting a glass of water next to device with a thermometer in it might be a good idea. Also, I don't think calorimetry attempt is appropriate for this device at the moment. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 10:20:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15055; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:05 -0800 Message-ID: <38A45264.5D8EA72D cwnet.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:21 -0800 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 References: <20000211053841.12359.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cb2qa1.0.9h3.T95fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: >From these observations, I conclude that a relatively large current is > flowing through stray capacitances. Of course, these capacitances do not show > on the circuit diagrams, but they are present in real circuits, and AC > currents flow through them. The higher the frequency, the larger these > effects are. > I suspect that the "wierd" effects will disappear once the circuit is rebuilt > with a single, well defined ground, and measurements are taken with wespect > to that ground. Michael, Logically, I suspect that you are correct at some level, and that the circuit in not truly OU. However... in not much more time than it takes for you to respond to this post, an experimenter of your obvious expertise can throw together the Naudin circuit and demonstrate where he and others went wrong. This was part of my initial motivation as well. It is somewhat belittling to those who are making a sincere effort to find out the cause of a rather interesting phenomena to categorize those efforts as well-known "stray capacitance" when you must realize that that term in itself is a cop-out for phenomena that is poorly understood and yes "weird." > Plasmas are complex, but not "wierd". They obey the usual laws, though the > complexity can make the analysis difficult to perform. Who are you kidding? If you were serious you could have saved the government billions in the various tokamak programs, etc., etc., etc. >Most plasmas are very dissipative. However, on occasion, one can arrange for a plasma to deliver > some energy (that it has gained from some other energy source!) to a particular load. Yes, now you're starting to get the point... If they were not so dissipative, it would not be a source of interest to anyone in how such a circuit can seem on the surface to be circulating more energy than is drawn from its source. Save your energy in a reply and go over to Radio Shack with $50 bucks and you can show us how the circuit fits into those well-known parameters of yours. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 10:22:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15271; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:28 -0800 Message-ID: <041a01bf74c4$969c4920$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:15:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7481.55E46D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"-Zaye.0.Vk3.q95fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7481.55E46D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Based on the commercial electrolysis of water that produces 283 liters of H2-O2 per Kw-Hr(at best), and the Brown's Gas generators that produce ~ 340 liters per Kw-Hr, I propose the following steps: 1, Light Lepton Pairs of 0.2 ev each are produced along with 2 H2 + O2 in the electrolysis cells. 2, The Leptons attach at the +/- ends of the H2O molecules rendering them "neutral" and neutralizing the intermolecular water-water bonds and come off as if a Noble Gas, thus adding the anamolous volume of 340-283 = 57 liters per Kw-Hr. 3, The 275 F Brown's gas flame impinges on the Tungsten or Brick, and attains a temperature near 5,000 K (0.4 ev) due to: A, annihilation of the LL Pair releasing 0.4 ev for each water molecule, B, the water molecules regaining their intermolecular bond properties and giving up their heat of condensation, C, the condensation of the water molecules create a vacuum in the millitorr range, D, catalytic formation of quasineutrons and CF-OU Fusion-Fission reactions. http://www.amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7481.55E46D60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="=?iso-8859-1?Q?BROWN'S_GAS_FACTS.url?=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="=?iso-8859-1?Q?BROWN'S_GAS_FACTS.url?=" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html Modified=20D911D6C074BF01D4 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7481.55E46D60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 11:19:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09747; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:16:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:16:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000211141553.0079e650 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:15:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, editor@infinite-energy.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Journal of Fusion Technology Seeks New Editor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZEnkZ1.0.AO2.v_5fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://fed.ans.org/fed.html Journal of Fusion Technology Seeks New Editor The American Nuclear Society (ANS) is soliciting names of qualified members who have an interest in becoming the editor of the ANS journal of Fusion Technology. Professor George Miley of the University of Illinois is the founding Editor of this journal and has served as its editor since its inception in 1981 as "Nuclear Technology/Fusion", switching to "Fusion Technology" in 1984. He has done an outstanding job. Prof. Miley has indicated that he intends to retire from the Editorship in approximately 2 years. The ANS is thus seeking a qualified individual to take his place. The selected person will be appointed "Editor-Designate" by June 2000, will work with Prof. Miley to effect a smooth transition, taking over the full editor role by about January 2001. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 12:15:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31472; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:11:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:11:22 -0800 Message-ID: <20000211201106.6541.qmail nw177.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 11 Feb 00 15:11:06 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Re: Naudin's glow discharge device] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA31439 Resent-Message-ID: <"1biOX2.0.gh7.gp6fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think I have the most recent data from: http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm 10ohms is really to much to accurately measure such high current at 30V. Horace, knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) wrote: > > > >I don't trust (scientificaly) your INPUT power data. > > > >- The 10ohm R5 resistor is too large to measure current accurately at 30V > >suply voltage > >- The R5/R4 ratio is too large for accurate current measurement > >- Q: is R5 always in the circuit, or only inserted during the current > >measurement ? > >- Sugg: What about graphing INPUT Power (Math = Ch1xCh2 ), just like you did > >with the output ... > > > >Respectfully, > >Horace > > Hi Horace, > > Perhaps you are looking at an older version of his webpage that is stored on > your browser cache. Jean-Louis has updated the page and has a graph of the > input power showing a more or less square wave DC input to the coil. > > Knuke > > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 12:20:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01880; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:17:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:17:02 -0800 Message-ID: <38A3C16E.6929F24 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:59:42 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 11, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mTTkB3.0.IT.-u6fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's New wrote: > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 Feb 00 Washington, DC > > 1. BUDGET: THE TIDE RAISES ALMOST ALL THE BOATS. Neal Lane, the > President's science advisor, was clearly elated to be delivering > good news at Monday's budget briefing. The overall FY 2001 budget > is up a mere 1.5%, but calls for boosting basic research by 7%. > Media coverage of the budget included little mention of science, > which is probably a good thing - the nail that sticks out usually > gets hammered down. Some highlights: > > * NSF is the big winner. The total is up a stunning 17.3% to > $4.6B, and research is up 19.7%. There are major initiatives in > information technology, nanotechnology, and biocomplexity. > > * DOE basic science programs are up 13%, including funding for the > Spallation Neutron Source. No funds are budgeted to make up the > $400M National Ignition Facility overrun, it must come out of > other lab programs. Secretary Richardson groused to the press > that "NIF science is sound, but the management stinks." Critics > of the program told WN that the Secretary is only half right. > > * NASA got only a 6% increase overall, but space science is up by > 9.4%. A well-timed initiative, Living with a Star (yucky title), > will use several spacecraft, including a Solar Sentinel on the far > side of the Sun, to track solar storms as the Sun rotates. With > the 11-year solar maximum almost upon us (WN 10 Dec 99), the > budget debate in Congress may be played out against a backdrop of > power failures, zapped satellites, radio blackouts and astronauts > risking dangerous levels of exposure to assemble the ISS. > > * NIST wants a $50M Institute for Information Infrastructure > Protection (great timing), and a 23% increase in the Advanced > Technology Program. I think they call for a big increase in ATP > each year just to give Republicans something to vote down. > > Enacting such a budget is another matter. In hearings this week, > Rep. Joe Knollenberg (R-MI) demanded to know why DOE wants to > increase funding for research on alternative energy sources when > nothing has come out of the last ten years of research. He also > objected to climate research, accusing the Clinton administration > of implementing the Kyoto accords without consulting Congress. > > 2. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: EVEN PLACEBOS HAVE SIDE EFFECTS. An NIH > study of St. Johns Wort, a popular herb used to treat depression, > found that it interferes with protease inhibitors used to treat > AIDS. The herb may also interfere with cyclosporin, used to > prevent transplant rejection. On NBC News, Bob Bazell reported > that one company was selling Sam-E, another fashionable dietary > supplement, at zero concentration. Under the Dietary Supplement > and Health Act of 1994, suppliers of "natural" substances are not > required to provide evidence of safety or efficacy. > > THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and > are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 12:35:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08042; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:33:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:33:12 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000211153252.0079c7c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:32:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 11, 2000] In-Reply-To: <38A3C16E.6929F24 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EkkXA2.0.az1.787fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert L. Park wrote: > 2. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: EVEN PLACEBOS HAVE SIDE EFFECTS. An NIH > study of St. Johns Wort, a popular herb used to treat depression, > found that it interferes with protease inhibitors used to treat > AIDS. This guy does not understand basic clinical terminology. Obviously, St. Johns Wort is not a placebo! It has active ingredients -- hypericin and pseudohypericin. Whether they do any good or not is debatable, but a "placebo" would be sugar or some other substance which has no measurable effects. He means "nostrum." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 12:47:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13004; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:44:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:44:38 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: [Re: Naudin's glow discharge device] Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:55:39 -0500 Message-ID: <20000211205539406.AAA113 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"At3nN1.0.zA3.qI7fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >I think I have the most recent data from: >http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm > >10ohms is really to much to accurately measure such high current at 30V. > >Horace, Hi Horace, I didn't realize that. The current is less than 2 amps, I think, how far off do you think it could be? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 13:18:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23842; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:15:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:15:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000211151516.011f6cf0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:15:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: [Re: Naudin's glow discharge device] In-Reply-To: <20000211201106.6541.qmail nw177.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_2c5z3.0.Oq5.Ql7fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:11 PM 2/11/00 EST, Horace wrote: > >I think I have the most recent data from: >http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm > >10ohms is really to much to accurately measure such high current at 30V. It looks to me like he's using the 10.6 ohm current viewing resistor only on the high voltage side, where the current is mA and 10 ohms is appropriate. On that web page there's a little photo of the front panel of a DC supply that shows the 30.1v and 1.38A on digital displays. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 13:50:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05533; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:47:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:47:23 -0800 Message-ID: <20000211214714.635.qmail www0h.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 11 Feb 00 16:47:12 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----NetAddressPart-00--=_kVvm6272S0h4eb71eab" Resent-Message-ID: <"zqBO7.0.IM1.gD8fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------NetAddressPart-00--=_kVvm6272S0h4eb71eab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was refering to the s_gcoilinput.gif schematic diagram with 10ohm, R5= resistor on the primary side of the HV transformer with oscillograms of t= he INPUT current and voltage. I am attaching the diagram I was refering to. Horace Scott Little wrote: > > It looks to me like he's using the 10.6 ohm current viewing resistor on= ly > on the high voltage side, where the current is mA and 10 ohms is > appropriate. On that web page there's a little photo of the front pane= l of > a DC supply that shows the 30.1v and 1.38A on digital displays. > = > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > At 03:11 PM 2/11/00 EST, Horace wrote: > > > >I think I have the most recent data from: > >http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm = > > > >10ohms is really to much to accurately measure such high current at 30= V. > = ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------NetAddressPart-00--=_kVvm6272S0h4eb71eab Content-Type: image/gif; name="s_gcoilinput.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="s_gcoilinput.gif" R0lGODdhLQJTAucAAAB4AOiA8AAA+MBY8AAAAAAAeMhY8Li4uACAAPgAAMDAwPj4+CkjvoTh 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bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:36:01 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device References: <20000211002141.18918.qmail nwcst283.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MXIpP.0.PT5.Fu8fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > > Dear Vo, > > I've noticed that Mr.Naudin does not publish any decent INPUT power data, just > the 30.1V 1.38A. If the input waveforms are not DC then the power input can > be very different from the calculated 41.54 Watts. > > Horace > > P.S. > For the uninitiated: The real power delivered is dependent on duty cycle and > phase angle between current and voltage. Real power is not dependent on the phase angle or power factor. And reactive power does not contribute to heating of a load and may be excluded from calorimetry. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 16:21:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20670; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:18:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:18:09 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:29:05 -0500 Message-ID: <20000212002905812.AAA293 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"Y52uu1.0.u25.0RAfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Based on the commercial electrolysis of water that produces 283 liters of H2-O2 per Kw-Hr(at >best), and >the Brown's Gas generators that produce ~ 340 liters per Kw-Hr, I propose the following steps: > >1, Light Lepton Pairs of 0.2 ev each are produced along with 2 H2 + O2 in the electrolysis >cells. > >2, The Leptons attach at the +/- ends of the H2O molecules rendering them "neutral" and >neutralizing the > intermolecular water-water bonds and come off as if a Noble Gas, thus adding the anamolous >volume >of 340-283 = 57 liters per Kw-Hr. > >3, The 275 F Brown's gas flame impinges on the Tungsten or Brick, and attains a temperature near >5,000 K (0.4 ev) >due to: A, annihilation of the LL Pair releasing 0.4 ev for each water molecule, B, the water >molecules regaining their intermolecular bond properties and giving up their heat of >condensation, C, the condensation of the water molecules create a vacuum in the millitorr range, >D, catalytic formation of quasineutrons and CF-OU Fusion-Fission reactions. > > http://www.amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html > >Regards, Frederick Hi Fred, Glad to see you getting into the Brown's Gas thing. I still can't figure out why it has been 25 years without any large scale commercialization. Have you submitted this idea to Wiseman? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 16:42:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29627; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:40:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:40:31 -0800 Message-ID: <04b201bf74f9$f8f44520$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <20000212002905812.AAA293 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:39:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"R4ouj.0.rE7.-lAfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons > >Based on the commercial electrolysis of water that produces 283 liters of > H2-O2 per Kw-Hr(at > >best), and > >the Brown's Gas generators that produce ~ 340 liters per Kw-Hr, I propose > the following steps: > > > >1, Light Lepton Pairs of 0.2 ev each are produced along with 2 H2 + O2 in > the electrolysis > >cells. > > > >2, The Leptons attach at the +/- ends of the H2O molecules rendering them > "neutral" and > >neutralizing the > > intermolecular water-water bonds and come off as if a Noble Gas, thus > adding the anamolous > >volume > >of 340-283 = 57 liters per Kw-Hr. > > > >3, The 275 F Brown's gas flame impinges on the Tungsten or Brick, and > attains a temperature near > >5,000 K (0.4 ev) > >due to: A, annihilation of the LL Pair releasing 0.4 ev for each water > molecule, B, the water > >molecules regaining their intermolecular bond properties and giving up > their heat of > >condensation, C, the condensation of the water molecules create a vacuum in > the millitorr range, > >D, catalytic formation of quasineutrons and CF-OU Fusion-Fission reactions. > > > > http://www.amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html > > > >Regards, Frederick > > Hi Fred, > > Glad to see you getting into the Brown's Gas thing. I still can't figure > out why it has been 25 years without any large scale commercialization. > Have you submitted this idea to Wiseman? Yup. Want to see what his thoughts are, especially since they are using 25% Potassium Hydroxide electrolyte. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 16:44:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA30710; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:42:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:42:53 -0800 Message-ID: <007101bf74f1$f7bd9380$92627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <20000211002141.18918.qmail nwcst283.netaddress.usa.net> <38A48ED1.6924747D@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Naudin's glow discharge device Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:41:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"VACVN3.0.hV7.DoAfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Horace wrote: > > > > Dear Vo, > > > > I've noticed that Mr.Naudin does not publish any decent INPUT power data, just > > the 30.1V 1.38A. If the input waveforms are not DC then the power input can > > be very different from the calculated 41.54 Watts. > > > > Horace > > > > P.S. > > For the uninitiated: The real power delivered is dependent on duty cycle and > > phase angle between current and voltage. > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > Real power is not dependent on the phase angle or power factor. > And reactive power does not contribute to heating of a load and > may be excluded from calorimetry. > Power is the instantaneous product of the voltage and current. This scope does a numerical approximation of instantaneous power. The phase angle is not important for measuring power (it can be used, but the Clarke-Hess equipment that Scott Little uses cannot use it because it measures wideband power). Phase angle does tell you something about the impedance of the load. RMS power for AC is mathematically equivalent to DC power. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 17:08:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09606; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:07:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:07:49 -0800 Message-ID: <04c901bf74fd$d117a980$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <20000212002905812.AAA293 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:05:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"B2gxX1.0.0M2.a9Bfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Knuke wrote: (Snip Theory) > > Hi Fred, > > Glad to see you getting into the Brown's Gas thing. > I'm also looking at the possibility that "Cyclones" are fed energy by this over warm seawater where the Potassium in the seawater and IR from the Sun can create LL Pairs and form this "Neutral H2O" Gas, that will "evaporate" without the need for the 1,000 btu/pound, and when the LLs annihilate and let the H2O condense, you have an energy source in the cyclone that will peter out over land. Also, Sunlight hitting the transpiration water of plants (with lots of K2CO3 in it) might explain afternoon thunderstorm activity on those hot summer days. Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 17:12:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10580; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:09:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:09:04 -0800 Message-ID: <20000212010859.3290.qmail nwcst282.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 11 Feb 00 20:08:59 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA10538 Resent-Message-ID: <"8eRh52.0.7b2.lABfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmm, that's the way they taught me in college: [Apparent Power] Pa = Vrms * Irms [Real Power] Pr = Pa * PF [PowerFactor] PF = Pr / Pa So this means that, Real Power depends on the Power Factor. For details see: http://www.traceengineering.com/technical/tech_notes/tn11.html Horace P.S. For the uninitiated: The Apparent Power is the "measured power", and the Real Power is the power that "performs actual work" like mechanical, heat, etc... Terry Blanton wrote: > > Real power is not dependent on the phase angle or power factor. > And reactive power does not contribute to heating of a load and > may be excluded from calorimetry. > > Terry > Horace wrote: > > > > Dear Vo, > > > > I've noticed that Mr.Naudin does not publish any decent INPUT power data, just the 30.1V 1.38A. If the input waveforms are not DC then the power input can be very different from the calculated 41.54 Watts. > > > > Horace > > > > P.S. > > For the uninitiated: The real power delivered is dependent on duty cycle and phase angle between current and voltage. > > ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 17:43:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23745; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:42:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:42:08 -0800 Message-ID: <20000212014203.28524.qmail nwcst315.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 11 Feb 00 20:42:03 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA23720 Resent-Message-ID: <"eH4473.0.xo5.lfBfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please note than my objection refered to the 30.1V 1.38A reading from the power supply. Of course, the multiplication of the instantenious voltage and current by the digital scope is much superior to the average readings of the power supply, but the R5 current sensing resistor in Mr.Naudin's test setup is too large for such 1A current and 30V voltage for accurate current measurement. Consequently the power levels will be inaccurate even after the multiplication of the instantenious V*I performed by the Scope. Horace P.S. Also, in reference to: s_gcoilinput.gif on: http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm I don't understand how 30V flowing through R4+R5 (400ohms) can result in current in excess of 1A. I thought that I=V/R. "Ed Wall" wrote: Power is the instantaneous product of the voltage and current. This scope does a numerical approximation of instantaneous power. The phase angle is not important for measuring power (it can be used, but the Clarke-Hess equipment that Scott Little uses cannot use it because it measures wideband power). Phase angle does tell you something about the impedance of the load. RMS power for AC is mathematically equivalent to DC power. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com > Horace wrote: > > Dear Vo, > > I've noticed that Mr.Naudin does not publish any decent INPUT power > data, just the 30.1V 1.38A. If the input waveforms are not DC then the power input can be very different from the calculated 41.54 Watts. > > Horace > > P.S. > For the uninitiated: The real power delivered is dependent on duty > cycle and phase angle between current and voltage. > > ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 19:05:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18996; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:59:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:59:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000211210021.00726848 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:00:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] In-Reply-To: <20000212014203.28524.qmail nwcst315.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Mjgmw1.0.fe4.ynCfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, I see the 10 ohm R in the primary side now. I also note that it is not present in his original schematic so he apparently inserted it solely for current viewing purposes. At 08:42 PM 2/11/00 EST, Horace wrote: >...the R5 current sensing resistor in Mr.Naudin's test setup is too large for >such 1A current and 30V voltage for accurate current measurement. There's nothing fundamentally inaccurate about a large current-viewing resistor. You must be referring to the fact that insertion of such a large R in series will alter the current significantly. That is, the current that flows when the 10 ohm R is present is not the same as the current that flows in the circuit when the R is absent, right? If the 10 ohm R was a permanent part of the circuit, then there would be no inaccuracy in using the voltage drop across it to infer the circuit current. >Please note than my objection refered to the 30.1V 1.38A reading from the >power supply. Actually, the average values displayed on your typical modern DC power supply represent a pretty good measure of the power it's delivering. Even if the circuit being driven did somehow trick the supply into providing voltage and current that were out of phase, the product of the displayed averages will always be the maximum possible power being delivered by the supply (i.e. a conservative measure for o-u calculations). The only problem...and I have seen this only once where watts of RF power were being coupled into the DC circuit...is when RF noise on the leads causes the metering circuits in the power supply to display an incorrect value. I'm inclined to believe his DC input power. It's the output current that doesn't make sense. As Ed Wall pointed out, we can learn the ratio of the capacitive reactance to the resistance of the load from his phase angle. When you work everything out using his latest scope data, you MUST reduce the current by a factor of 10 in order to come close to matching the MEASURED capacitance of the load. Because of this, despite his near-perfect DC current check, I still believe that his actual current measurements on the panel are 10x too high. No, I don't know how this could be happening but nothing else makes sense. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 19:08:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22865; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:07:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:07:47 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:18:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20000212031849031.AAA112 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"fudwC3.0.5b5.3wCfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick writes: >I'm also looking at the possibility that "Cyclones" are fed energy by this over warm seawater >where the Potassium in the seawater and IR from the Sun can create LL Pairs and form this >"Neutral H2O" Gas, that will "evaporate" without the need for the 1,000 btu/pound, and when the >LLs annihilate and let the H2O condense, you have an energy source in the cyclone that will >peter out over land. > >Also, Sunlight hitting the transpiration water of plants (with lots of K2CO3 in it) might >explain afternoon thunderstorm activity on those hot summer days. > >Regards, Frederick I meant to ask you earlier about this when you were discussing IR diodes. I thought that R. Mills was concentrating on the UV spectrum. There have been some UV lasers made recently that I was thinking might work. They should be coming down in price quite a bit in the near future as they are projected to be used in computer optical drives. What makes you think that the IR spectrum is more likely to produce LL's? Have you data for this? If you've already posted links for this etc., just give me the thread titles and I'll look them up. Thanks, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 19:12:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20121; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:00:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:00:39 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:11:44 -0500 Message-ID: <20000212031144328.AAA114 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"5A7ix3.0.Jw4.MpCfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick writes: >Yup. Want to see what his thoughts are, especially since they are using 25% Potassium Hydroxide >electrolyte. :-) > >Regards, Frederick Whoa, I missed that one entirely. I must be slowing down or something. Thanks. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 23:17:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA30622; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:14:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:14:23 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:13:36 EST Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"J0VGg1.0.FU7.BXGfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/11/00 5:43:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, horacex usa.net writes: > Please note than my objection refered to the 30.1V 1.38A reading from the > power supply. > > Of course, the multiplication of the instantenious voltage and current by > the > digital scope is much superior to the average readings of the power supply, > but the R5 current sensing resistor in Mr.Naudin's test setup is too large > for > such 1A current and 30V voltage for accurate current measurement. > Consequently the power levels will be inaccurate even after the > multiplication > of the instantenious V*I performed by the Scope. > > Horace > But the scope reading agrees with the reading from the power supply meters, so which is wrong...or right? Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 23:23:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA32190; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:20:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:20:12 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <3b.f95a0f.25d66387 aol.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:19:35 EST Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bi_go2.0.us7.hcGfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/11/00 7:05:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: <> >.................... despite his near-perfect DC current check, I still believe > that his actual current measurements on the panel are 10x too high. No, I > don't know how this could be happening but nothing else makes sense. > > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International Nice job JL. This is getting very interesting...Scott stumped! Me too!... Why not remove that 10 ohm resistor and put the meter directly in circuit in it's place. The meter probably has an internal resistance of 0.1 to 1 ohm and that would eliminate the controversy of the suitability of the 10 ohm. Or just leave the resistor in and add the meter in series to measure current directly. If all that power is truly being delivered to the lamps and panel, may I suggest enclosing lamps/panel in a Faraday cage, and measure any current and voltage flowing to ground. Use ferrous sheet metal...cheaper and EZ to solder. See also if there is a measurable temperature rise in the cage. Respectfully, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 00:23:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA11012; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:22:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:22:17 -0800 Message-ID: <055b01bf7516$32b7cd60$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000212031849031.AAA112 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:00:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"VufsZ1.0.eh2.sWHfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Brown's Gas, CF-OU and Light Leptons Knuke wrote: > > What makes you think that the IR > spectrum is more likely to produce LL's? Have you data for this? If you've > already posted links for this etc., just give me the thread titles and I'll > look them up. Thanks, Easy, the electron-positron pair production at 1.02 Mev is a multiple of the reciprocal of the "Fine Structure Constant" Alpha, 0.00729729 = 137.03 which is all around QM and Quark masses in High Energy Physics, like the Cheshire Cat. 1.02E6* Alpha = 7443 ev (soft x-ray) Temp ~ = 86 Million Deg K 7443*Alpha = 54.4 ev EUV Temp ~ = 630,000 Deg K 54.4*Alpha = 0.396 ev IR (~ = 0.4 ev, 3.1 microns) Temp ~ = 4,600 Deg K 1.02E6* Alpha^3 = 0.4 ev a photon in the Infrared (3.1 microns) Which is also an absorption peak for the bond vibration in water and other hydrogenous materials. The UV/EUV can be released when the negative LL is picked up by a Proton or Deuteron which forms the Quasi-neutral entities that can do QM tunneling, and effect Cold Fusion-Fission. Wien's Displacment Law for a peak output from an ideal blackbody radiator at 3.1 microns is 960 Deg K. Based on your OU experiments with water, which would you pick? :-) > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 08:19:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA20309; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:18:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:18:34 -0800 Message-ID: <38A5B23F.39E1 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:19:27 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] References: <20000212010859.3290.qmail nwcst282.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x6hcz.0.Az4.QVOfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > > Hmm, that's the way they taught me in college: > > [Apparent Power] Pa = Vrms * Irms > [Real Power] Pr = Pa * PF > [PowerFactor] PF = Pr / Pa > > So this means that, Real Power depends on the Power Factor. I agree. However, the reactive power does not contribute to the heat of the system. It does, however, require that the magnetization current of the generator be increased. Watt meters measure only real power and is all you pay for unless your power factor is significant. In that case the power company will penalize you for your power factor because of their increased generation cost. Power factor correcting capacitors or synchronous motors might be a good investment of your power factor is significant. Calorimetry should not include reactive power in the calculation. If you are using a true Watt meter to measure power, you do not need to care about the power factor. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 16:14:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04732; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:10:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:10:47 -0800 Message-ID: <05ac01bf75bf$00e871a0$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Fractional Orbits of Electrons vs Fractional Orbits of Light Leptons Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:08:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Xccnr3.0.s91.7QVfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you go, Knuke: When the electron "tries" to drop into an orbit below the equilibrium Ground State Bohr Radius according to V = kq/R it gains relativistic mass, Mrel = Mo[(E kinetic/E rest) + 1]. No matter how small the mass gain you cannot balance the centripetal force Fc = Mv^2/R with the electrostatic force Fes = kq^2/R^2. OTOH, a Light Lepton (negative charge) can gain relativistic mass at quantized fractional orbits all the way to a radius of a few Fermi where it's relativistic mass, ie., energy can approach that of the rest mass/energy of the electron. Since a 0.2 ev LL that sees 0.2 volts energy,doubles in mass and is going at 87% of c, by the time it sees a few volts, for all practicle purposes it is moving at c. Then: Fc = Mc^2/R = E kinetic/R = Fes = kq^2/R^2 Thus R fractional, Rf = kq^2/E kinetic R fractional = R bohr/ n^2 When n gets to 137..... :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 20:31:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02481; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:30:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:30:43 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Fractional Orbits of Electrons vs Fractional Orbits of Light Leptons Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:41:48 -0500 Message-ID: <20000213044148812.AAA201 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"nr_D71.0.hc.pDZfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, All the theory is starting to make my head spin. I'm re-reading the University of Texas paper on the glow discharge panels, I just got a paper from Professor Rusek at Purdue on H2O2 fuel cells (10 megs), I got a CD rom in the mail today with a bunch more info on CF, and I've been trying to make more sense out of what you've been saying for the last year or so. I've only got the barest of grasps on regular atomic theory, and the sub-atomic stuff is just beyond my ken right now, but I am studying it. As for the Brown's Gas, I am just wondering if there is a way to separate the electrically enhanced portion from the H2 and O2. In fact, I'm just wondering if they have tested their electrolyte for H2O2, and if that is what the BG actually is. I know that H2O2 is not supposed to exist in the gas form, but Walter Grotz told me that he has been able to detect it, and with a low temp, low voltage setup like the BG device, perhaps that is what the "mystery gas" is. If so, then there should be some left in the electrolyte after it is turned off, and the Hach titration lab would be able to determine if it is there. That kit is only $50, so it wouldn't break the bank to check for it. You may want to suggest it to them. I know that the detection of H2O2 by titration would not be the last word on what the gas actually is, but it would be an interesting test, nonetheless. Right now in Florida, the temps have finally gotten back into the 80's, and will be there for a few days. They had dropped into the 20's briefly about 10 days ago or so. Anyway, I'm going to give the theories a rest for a few days, and hopefully get some rays. :) Will get right back on it though after I feel less dizzy from all the theory. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 00:44:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA26366; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:43:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:43:53 -0800 Message-ID: <061f01bf7606$afd95340$fd441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: P* - D* Reactions? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:41:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"T6Z1q3.0.uR6.8xcfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try this out, Robin: The Neutral Quasineutron (P*) and Quasidineutron (D*) formed by uptake of a 0.2 ev Light Lepton by a Proton (P) or a Deuteron (D) with a radius of a few Fermi: 1, P* + P ----> D + (e+) + neutrino + (LL-) + Energy 2, D* + P ----> He3 or T + (LL-) + Energy 3, P* + Pd or W -----> (LL-) + Fragments + Energy With it's ~ 7.2 nanometer rest radius the LL- should carry away a lot of energy and "thermalize" in a short distance, then annihilate with the LL+, giving off 0.4 ev. Will it work? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 08:37:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02883; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:32:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:32:26 -0800 Message-ID: <38A6D646.419D5191 austininstruments.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:05:26 -0600 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little Big Bang? References: <20000210204435.99236.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yAbG33.0.vi.Qojfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Dennard wrote: > > Why science even thinks the Infinite Universe has and edge or an age is the > same voodoo practiced by our ancestors thinking they saw the edge of the > Earth. --- Since the red shift increases with distance and in this universe we seem to be bounded by the speed of light, it seems entirely credible that the observable edge of our universe is delineated by that boundary. In other words, stuff on this side is going slower than light while stuff on the other side is going faster than light, and we can only see the stuff on this side. That doesn't mean the universe ends at the "horizon", it just means there are different rules on either side of the boundary. Additionally, if you accept the existence of time, (and I believe you must, since everything doesn't happen all at once) then you have to accept that our universe has an age. That is, it will be older tomorrow than it is today, and it was younger yesterday than it is today. At least it seems that those are the rules we have to deal with. The same rules may not apply on the other side of the horizon, which is also where we may have sprung from and when our local time started. --- And it has to be just about the stupidest thing I ever heard of, and > defies mathmatics at that. You tell me what happens at the edge of the > universe and I'll tell you what happens when you fall off the edge of the > Earth. --- O.K. I've told you what probably happens at the edge of our universe. Now you tell me what happens when you fall off the edge of the earth;^) --- Snipped self-aggrandisement and politics... --- John Fields Overunity Laboratories, Inc. El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas "Surely, you must be joking!" http://www.overunitylabs.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 14:03:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07774; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:00:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:00:20 -0800 Message-ID: <20000213215946.81330.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.154] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little Big Bang? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:59:46 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PEnh73.0.Ov1.qbofu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have read, not being a "real scientist", that there is question to red shift hypothesis and it may not be as credible as once thought. Multiple Universes, different dimensions, are always used to justify the unanswered. My view in my statement is that the Infinite Universe covers all of it. There is only one Universe. It may have boundries like the Earth has a seashore. But different densities do not mean different Universes, IMO. So, you have told me what might happen at the spaceshore not the edge of the Infinite Universe. We know now the there is no way the energy of motion by some kind of big bang can account for the energy of motion observed. And that was key to a finite universe. We know now that space is fluid due to the frame dragging studies, so that discounts Einstein's void Universe and curvature of space, and quantum mechanics as far as I can tell. It makes common sense to me the Universe has always been here and will always be here, although constantly changing, constantly recycling, it still remains the same. The buring bush that does not consume itself, eternal, was how my dreamwork presents it. As to overunity, I see a misunderstanding of what zero point means. Zero point is not the point of overunity, IMO, ZPE is energy in the absense of heat at absolute zero, thus no thermodynamic or electromagnetic applications would seem to be possible. This, in conjunction with Bachall's and Permutter's findings in their Cosmic Triangle report, finding the gravity constant and flat space, seem to me to add up to a paradigm shift, from the thermodynamic paradigm to the gravity paradigm. I have traced it all through the concept of fluid space and the understanding of how gravity causes evaporation and the speed of light. It seems to make simple common sense. I see where Einstein's own words about the measure of refraction in the gravity telescope show that gravity has to repel light since his predicted measurement has never been met. And he stated it had to be met exactly for his theory to be correct. So, as an observer of these facts over years and thousands of archived pages with an unbiased point of view, (I have no convention to defend or promote), it appears to me almost every thing we think of as science is backwards. And it all goes back to man thinking he has seen the edge fo the Universe. I believe we could build a telescope hundreds of time larger than the Hubble and still only see a tiny part of the Unverse. We could travel 100 times faster than the speed of light for a million years and only see a tiny part of the Universe. And, in my theory on all this, all we have to do is build a whirlpool as I describe and have all the clean, infinite, ZPE we need. I have found that man has never built a whirlpool before. If that doesn't seem totally weird I don't know what does. If you or anyone knows of a whirlpool being built by man before I sure would like to see the picture, the data, anything. Thank you for your comments. David Dennard http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: John Fields >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Little Big Bang? >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:05:26 -0600 > >David Dennard wrote: > > > > Why science even thinks the Infinite Universe has and edge or an age is >the > > same voodoo practiced by our ancestors thinking they saw the edge of the > > Earth. > >--- > >Since the red shift increases with distance and in this universe >we seem to be bounded by the speed of light, it seems entirely >credible that the observable edge of our universe is delineated >by that boundary. In other words, stuff on this side is going >slower than light while stuff on the other side is going faster >than light, and we can only see the stuff on this side. That >doesn't mean the universe ends at the "horizon", it just means >there are different rules on either side of the boundary. > >Additionally, if you accept the existence of time, (and I believe >you must, since everything doesn't happen all at once) then you >have to accept that our universe has an age. That is, it will be >older tomorrow than it is today, and it was younger yesterday >than it is today. At least it seems that those are the rules we >have to deal with. The same rules may not apply on the other >side of the horizon, which is also where we may have sprung from >and when our local time started. > >--- > >And it has to be just about the stupidest thing I ever heard of, >and > > defies mathmatics at that. You tell me what happens at the edge of the > > universe and I'll tell you what happens when you fall off the edge of >the > > Earth. > > >--- > >O.K. I've told you what probably happens at the edge of our >universe. > >Now you tell me what happens when you fall off the edge of the >earth;^) > >--- > >Snipped self-aggrandisement and politics... > >--- > >John Fields Overunity Laboratories, Inc. >El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas >"Surely, you must be joking!" http://www.overunitylabs.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 15:13:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28281; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:11:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:11:51 -0800 Message-ID: <38A73ADE.13D2E1C3 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:14:38 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: A little more meat to Vortex: Abstracts of Mar. 20th APS meeting at Mn. Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1ED96959A7757DE8D0C21CE8" Resent-Message-ID: <"0Xoqp2.0.kv6.sepfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1ED96959A7757DE8D0C21CE8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feb. 13th, 2000 Browsing the latest IE, there is a small notice below the ICCF-8 ad. It announced a March 20-24, 2000 meeting of the American Physics Society in which there is to be a Palladium-Deuteron Session (C32) on Monday afternoon for about two hours. It's in Minneapolis Minnesota. So I visited the APS website and felt the session abstracts should be imported for vortex. The abstracts were converted to ascii text and a little editing to get rid of formatting junk and additions for information and ease of reading. for meeting information (courtesy IE) for original abstracts (courtesy IE) There are ten presentations of twelve minutes each. It involves fourteen individuals, many of whom are repeats to APS. The presentations are much shorter than the all-day session at the ACS meeting in Ontario. I guess it's the exposure that counts. This becomes the third APS meeting in which cold fusion is being included. I think we have Scott Chubb to thank for this. -AK- --------------1ED96959A7757DE8D0C21CE8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="S1110.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="S1110.txt" American Physical Society March 20-24, 2000 Meeting Minneapolis, Minnesota Session C32 - Palladium-Deuteron. MIXED session, Monday afternoon, March 20, 2000 Room 213A, Minneapolis Covention Center Time: 14:30 (2:30 P.M.) Total session time: About two hours SC32.001 time: 14:30 Theoretical Basis for Anomalous Heat and ^4He in Deuterium-Metal Systems Scott Chubb, Talbot Chubb (Research Systems Inc., 5023 N. 38 St., Arlington, VA 22207) ABSTRACT Because electromagnetic (E.M.) forces have infinite range, reactions exist in which the degrees of freedom associated with nuclear- and atomic- scales are coupled. Although such non-separable reactions are possible in conventional D+D fusion, they rarely occur because the relevant E.M.-induced reaction (D+D\rightarrow ^4He) violates the rules of energy-momentum conservation (EMC) at-a-point, except when a high momentum (HM) gamma ray is emitted. When D^+ and ^4He^+^+ occupy ion band states with low concentration, however, different forms of E.M. coupling become possible in which EMC is violated locally but conserved globally and D+D\rightarrow ^4He reactions occur without HM particles. Using a generalized KKR-Multiple-Scattering theory, we have formulated Generalized Kadanoff-Baym Equations ( D.C. Langreth and J.W. Wilkins, Phys. Rev. B6), 3189 (1972). that describe the associated non-local heat and ^4He release from the resulting coupling between nuclear interactions, D^+ and ^4He^+^+ ion band states, and electrons. SC32.02 time: 14:42 Cavitation Micro Accelerator and Anomalous Heat R.S. Stringham (First Gate Energies, 2166 Old Middlefield Way, Mountain View, CA 94043) ABSTRACT Bubbles collapsing in acoustic fields are not always destructive. The collapse process is understood until its last moments when bubble contents reach high densities, temperatures, and photon emission. Near the end of its adiabatic collapse, a bubble in an acoustic field produces a jet. If the acoustic amplitude is large, the jet will accelerate through the bubble and self-destruct in one acoustic cycle. The dissociated bubble contents, which make up the jet, are accelerated at velocities of several Mach into either surfaces or liquid D_2O. In this case the surfaces consist of metal foils suspended in D_2O in a reactor. The steady-state calorimetry of the acoustic reactor and the acoustic power supply show the production of anomalous heat, Q(x), above that of the input power. The sources of Q(x) are unique nuclear events which result from jet acceleration of the deuteron high density plasma into a metal lattice. The time frame for these events is in pico-seconds. These events produce no measurable long range radiation. SC32.003 time:14:54 Low Energy Nuclear Reactions: A Millennium Status Report Eugene F. Mallove (New Energy Research Laboratory, PO Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816) ABSTRACT This talk will summarize some of the more convincing recent experiments that show that helium-4, nuclear scale excess energy, tritium, low-level neutron production, and the transmutation of heavy elements can occur near room temperature in relatively simple systems. Despite inappropriate theory-based arguments against it and unethical attacks by people unfamiliar with the supporting experiments, the new field of solid state nuclear reactions is progressing. The physical theory behind the associated phenomena continues to be debated among theorists. The facts of the history of this scientific controversy suggest that it is inadvisable to rush to judgment against allegedly ``impossible" new phenomena when increasingly careful experiments have revealed new vistas in physics. Detailed discussion of evidence for solid state nuclear reactions is available elsewhere (http://www.infinite-energy.com). SC32.004 time:15:06 Calorimetric Studies at the New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory in Japan Melvin H. Miles (New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory, 3-5 Techno-Park 2 - Chome Shimonopporo, Atsubetsu-Ku, Sapporo-004, Japan) ABSTRACT Experiments using China Lake type calorimetric cells produced excess power in three out of three experiments and no excess power in three control studies. A detailed analysis is presented for two experiments using the China Lake cells. Anomalous thermistor signals in Cell A suggest the emission of electromagnetic radiation from the active palladium cathode. Experiments in Fleischmann-Pons type calorimetric cells produced excess power in six out of eight experiments. These studies involved palladium alloy cathodes, co-deposition of palladium and deuterium from the solution, and electromigration using thin palladium wires. SC32.005 time: 15:18 "Lochon" catalysed fusion reaction in a solid matrix K.P. Sinha (9805 Juniper Hill Road, Rockville, MD 20850) ABSTRACT A theoretical model is presented in which lochons (local charged bosons) located around protons or deuterons and interacting with high frequency modes of the system can acquire heavy effective mass and the corresponding ions are squeezed to much smaller size. Such bosons comprise electron pairs in an S=0 spin state and can effectively screen the coulomb barrier and facilitate nuclear fusion with another deuteron. Theoretical details with numerical estimates will be discussed. SC32.006 time: 15:30 A Requirement for Radiationless Deuteron Fusion Talbot Chubb, Scott Chubb (Research Systems Inc., 5023 N. 38 St., Arlington, VA 22207) ABSTRACT Referring to the Fleischmann-Pons effect in the deuterium-palladium system, McKubre says: "The evidence in my view for the appearance of an anomalous unaccounted excess heat in the deuterium-palladium system is essentially overwhelming. There is something there. It's larger by more than 1 order of magnitude, in some cases by more than 2 orders of magnitude, than the sum total of all possible chemical reactions."(M. McKubre, "Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium", Presentation at American Chemical Society Western Regional Meeting, Ontario, CA, 8 October 1999.) The 2-electron wave function for the helium atom ground state can be written \Psi = \phi (r) g(r_12), where \phi (r) is a radial symmetric function and g(r_12) has a cusp at r_12 = 0. A requirement for radiationless fusion, consistent with non-separable nuclear/electromagnetic interactions (S.R. and T.A.Chubb, talk presented this session.), is that the 2-deuteron wave function is of the form \Psi = \phi (r) g(r_12), where \phi(r) and g(r_12) are Bloch functions, and g(r_12), on length-scales associated with atomic processes, has N_cell cusps, with N_cell > \sim 10^4. SC32007 time: 15:42 A Model for Fast Ion Emission from Metal Deuterides Peter Hagelstein (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Research Laboratory of Electronics, Cambridge, MA 02139) ABSTRACT There have been numerous claims during the past ten years of the observation of a variety of anomalies in metal deuterides. One such anomaly involves the emission of fast (MeV) alpha from PdD as reported by G. Chambers and colleagues at NRL in the early 1990s. A related effect is the emission of a variety of low mass fast ions from TiD reported by groups led by G. Chambers and by F. E. Cecil (Colorado School of Mines) et al(F. E. Cecil, H. Liu, D. Beddingfield and C. S. Galovich, in Anomalous Nuclear Effects in Deuterium/Solid Systems, AIP Conf. Proc.) 228, p. 383 (1990).. We have recently examined a theoretical model for this effect. We propose a second order off-resonant reaction in which fusion reactions are coupled to optical phonons, and then the optical phonon excitation is dipole-coupled to nuclear ionization. Such a model gives reaction products and energies which appear to be in agreement with experiment. SC32.008 time: 15:54 In Situ Measurement of Tritium Concentration Variations During Plasma Loading of Palladium and Palladium Alloys T.N. Claytor, D.G. Tuggle, J. Thompson (Los Alamos National Laboratory, Mail Stop C914, Los Alamos, NM 87545) ABSTRACT A number (22) of pure palladium samples and palladium alloys have been loaded with a deuterium or hydrogen plasma in a system that allows the in-situ measurement of tritium. By carefully controlling the plasma conditions, the plasma can be constrained to only contact palladium surfaces and to only lightly sputter the palladium. Long run times (up to 200 h) result in an integration of the tritium output and this, coupled with the high intrinsic sensitivity of the system( \sim 0.1 nCi/l), enables the significance of the tritium measurement to be many \sigma (>10 ). In addition to the real time tritium measurement, the deuterium gas can be combined with oxygen, at the end of a run, resulting in water samples that were counted in a scintillation counter. The results of these confirmatory measurements of the tritium, in these water samples, agree quantitatively with the decrease in tritium as measured by the gas ionization gauge. The energy spectrum and the half-life of the radioactive species are also in agreement with the assumption that the material is tritium. We illustrate how tritium rate can vary between batches of annealed palladium, as received palladium and palladium alloys. SC32.009 time: 16:06 The Emergence of a Coherent Explanation for Anomalies Observed in D/Pd and H/Pd Systems Michael C. H. McKubre, Francis L. Tanzella, Paolo Tripodi (SRI International, Menlo Park, CA), Peter Hagelstein (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Research Laboratory of Electronics, Cambridge, MA 02139) ABSTRACT Numerous observations have been made of apparent anomalies in carefully performed experimental studies of D/Pd and H/Pd systems. Such anomalies include: prompt emission of electrons and charged particles; unexplained heat in excess of known input sources; the residual presence of light elements (notably tritium, helium-3 and helium-4); the possible occurrence of isotope anomalies in higher mass elements (including the host metal); unusual conductance effects both stable and transient. The features which unify these apparently disparate observations are the common elements of the needed experimental stimuli, and the requirement for extended lattice coherent processes in any obvious explanation. An attempt will be made in this paper to compare and characterize the results of a range of experiments performed at SRI in terms of these two principals: the commonality of conditions and stimulus; the reasonable requirement for and expectation of coherent processes involving electrons and lattice trapped hydrogen isotopic entities. SC32.010 time: 16:18 Excess Power Using Thin Layers of Palladium on Inert Substrates E. K. Storms (Energy K. Systems, 2140 Paseo Ponderosa, Santa Fe, NM 87501) ABSTRACT Excess power produced by thin layers of palladium deposited on various substrates was measured using a double calorimeter consisting of a flow-type and an isoperibolic-type combined. The effects of palladium thickness and impurity deposition were explored. The behavior was correlated with the open-circuit-voltage and the over-voltage of the cathode with respect to a reference electrode external to the D_2O-based electrolytic cell. Several potential errors associated with such calorimetry will be described. The study is directed toward producing reproducible excess energy production using the Pons-Fleischmann effect. ( E. K. Storms, Infinite Energy, 4), 16 (1998). ( E. K. Storms, J. Sci. Exploration, 10), 185 (1996). End of session:16:30 END OF ABSTRACT DOCUMENTS --------------1ED96959A7757DE8D0C21CE8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 16:19:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15849; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:17:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:17:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A little more meat to Vortex: Abstracts of Mar. 20th APS meeting at Mn. Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:17:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38A73ADE.13D2E1C3 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38A73ADE.13D2E1C3 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA15827 Resent-Message-ID: <"ijl482.0.Zt3.jcqfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:14:38 -0800, Akira Kawasaki wrote: [snip] > for meeting information (courtesy IE) > for original This should of course, have been: http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR00/baps/tocC.html#SC32001 Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 20:47:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27602; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:46:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:46:05 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <3f.f3075c.25d8e26a aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:45:30 EST Subject: d + p fusion To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"xAoPF3.0.0l6.BYufu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A question for Michael Schaffer or anyone else who knows something about hot fusion: What hot fusion experiments use d + p fusion? According to standard nuclear theory, the cross section for d + p fusion is several orders of magnitude higher than for d + d fusion, but d + p produces powerful gamma radiation. Is the gamma radiation prohibitively high? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 21:24:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08936; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:20:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:20:49 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: P* - D* Reactions? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:20:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0q3fascvii0sqpge8v3ibd10fnuvsqlmp4 4ax.com> References: <061f01bf7606$afd95340$fd441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <061f01bf7606$afd95340$fd441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA08907 Resent-Message-ID: <"8m-5W.0.YB2.n2vfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:41:41 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Try this out, Robin: > >The Neutral Quasineutron (P*) and Quasidineutron (D*) formed by uptake of a 0.2 ev Light Lepton >by a Proton (P) or a Deuteron (D) with a radius of a few Fermi: > >1, P* + P ----> D + (e+) + neutrino + (LL-) + Energy > >2, D* + P ----> He3 or T + (LL-) + Energy > >3, P* + Pd or W -----> (LL-) + Fragments + Energy I don't think this last one would work. However D* + Pd or W ------> etc. might. I also have a problem with LLs forming tight orbits, because if they can gain mass relativistically, then an electron should be able to as well, implying that tight relativistic electron orbitals should exist, but I haven't heard of them. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 00:59:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17100; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:55:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:55:33 -0800 Message-ID: <007801bf76d1$7b619b60$e68e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: P*+ D* CF Reactions Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:52:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"CGJoF3.0.2B4.5Cyfu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: P* is a neutral Quasineutron (Radius ~ 3 Fermi)formed by up of a 0.2 ev LL- by a Proton (1.00810 AMU). D* is a neutral Quasidineutron (Radius ~ 3 Fermi)formed by uptake of a 0.2 ev LL- by a Deuteron (2.0142 AMU). Proton (1.007825 AMU) Deuteron (2.0140 AMU) Triton (3.01605 AMU) He3 (3.01604 AMU) e(+/-) (0.000548 AMU) LL(+/-) (0.000274 AMU) P* + P ----> D + (e+) + neutrino + (LL-) + 0.93 Mev P* + D ----> T + (LL-) + 5.47 Mev D* + D ----> He4 + (LL-) + 23.83 Mev D* + D ----> T + P* + 3.84 Mev D* + Pd or W ----> (LL-) + fragments + neutrinos + ? Mev P* + Pd or W ----> (LL-) + fragments + neutrinos + ? Mev Momentum and Reputations are Conserved. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 03:15:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA02427; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:14:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:14:17 -0800 Message-ID: <38A7E206.271300BE austininstruments.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 05:07:50 -0600 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little Big Bang? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <20000213215946.81330.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tqq9C.0.rb.9E-fu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Dennard wrote: > I have read, not being a "real scientist", that there is > question to red > shift hypothesis and it may not be as credible as once > thought. Multiple > Universes, different dimensions, are always used to justify the > unanswered. The unanswered does not need justification.It just exists, and man's neverending quest for knowledge is the search for answers. You seem to be pooh-poohing the idea that multiple universes and dimensions can exist, yet it wasn't too long ago that we came to the realization that there are really more than just three dimensions. > My view in my statement is that the Infinite Universe covers > all of it. > There is only one Universe. It may have boundries like the > Earth has a > seashore. But different densities do not mean different > Universes, IMO. I believe, If you'll be so kind as to re-read my last post, that I was making reference to our local universe as the universe which is on this side of the horizon. I have no real idea as to what lies on the other side and, not knowing the rules for the other side, whether in fact the whole is the sum of its parts or really, whether the other side exists at all. > So, you have told me what might happen at the spaceshore not > the edge of the > Infinite Universe. We know now the there is no way the energy > of motion by > some kind of big bang can account for the energy of motion > observed. Not true. If, in fact, matter is going superluminal as it crosses the horizon that could explain the "missing" matter in our local universe. > And > that was key to a finite universe. We know now that space is > fluid due to > the frame dragging studies, so that discounts Einstein's void > Universe and > curvature of space, and quantum mechanics as far as I can tell. > > It makes common sense to me the Universe has always been here > and will > always be here, although constantly changing, constantly > recycling, it still > remains the same. > The buring bush that does not consume itself, eternal, > was how my dreamwork presents it. > As to overunity, I see a misunderstanding of what zero point > means. Zero > point is not the point of overunity, IMO, ZPE is energy in the > absense of > heat at absolute zero, thus no thermodynamic or electromagnetic > applications > would seem to be possible. This, in conjunction with Bachall's > and > Permutter's findings in their Cosmic Triangle report, finding > the gravity > constant and flat space, seem to me to add up to a paradigm > shift, from the > thermodynamic paradigm to the gravity paradigm. > > I have traced it all through the concept of fluid space and the > > understanding of how gravity causes evaporation and the speed > of light. It > seems to make simple common sense. So did believing the sun revolved around the earth! > I see where Einstein's own words about > the measure of refraction in the gravity telescope show that > gravity has to > repel light since his predicted measurement has never been > met. And he > stated it had to be met exactly for his theory to be correct. > > So, as an observer of these facts over years and thousands of > archived pages > with an unbiased point of view, (I have no convention to defend > or promote), > it appears to me almost every thing we think of as science is > backwards. > And it all goes back to man thinking he has seen the edge fo > the Universe. > I believe we could build a telescope hundreds of time larger > than the Hubble > and still only see a tiny part of the Unverse. We could travel > 100 times > faster than the speed of light for a million years and only see > a tiny part > of the Universe. > > And, in my theory on all this, all we have to do is build a > whirlpool as I > describe and have all the clean, infinite, ZPE we need. Patently untrue. From your web site: "The most exciting part to me is that it is provable by building a Whirlpower machine. This involves building the biggest whirlpool possible, as wide as possible with a strong vortex getting as much wobble going as possible. What these parameters are, and does it need to be large to work, are questions only scientific analysis and experimentation can bring answers to. I don't think a miniature model would be the best approach since we are working with gravity. It might be like making a miniature solar dish, a miniature windmill, etc. It needs to be of a scale proportional to its need to some extent. It would be a shame to build a tiny one that did not work because it was not large enough to use the mass effectively. Almost like building a miniature automobile complete with a tiny gas motor would be harder than building a larger one." >From your own pen it appears you don't have a clue about the size needed and could easily say after each successively larger model is built, "That one didn't work because it's too small. We need to build a larger one." Ad infinitum. If you want to build something, why don't you figure out what it would take to get out one watt more than what you put into it, build it, test it, and then call Hal Puthoff and tell him that you accept his one watt challenge? John Fields, OverUnity Laboratories, Inc. El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas "Surely, you must be joking!" http://www.overunitylabs.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 08:31:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03895; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:26:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:26:34 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Plasma companies and ref Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:37:38 -0500 Message-ID: <20000214163738000.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ONegY.0.gy.vo2gu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts! I finally dug out those web addresses. Santilli's group: http://home1.gte.net/ibr Startech: http://www.startech.net/ The other article that I referred to was not from the Princeton Plasma Physics group, but it was from Dr. Bellan of Caltech who was educated at Princeton, and has been doing work with Spheromak production. This is being used to feed a tokamak plasma. It may be related to what is happening in Jean-Louis's setup, especially if you look at the current waveforms. http://broccoli.caltech.edu/~media/Press_Releases/PR12020.html There is also some interesting stuff at: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~aphhome/Plasmatopic.html Have fun, play safe! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 09:48:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11489; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:43:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:43:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000214174311.35639.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.48] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little Big Bang? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:43:11 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"fhmnj3.0.Rp2.Rx3gu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good comments John, you wrote: >You seem to be pooh-poohing the idea that multiple universes and >dimensions can exist, yet it wasn't too long ago that we came to >the realization that there are really more than just three >dimensions. Multiple Universes get to me more than multiple dimensions. Universe is a term meant to cover it all. Subdividing it is just a cop out in my opinion. Now multiple dimensions, one might have said single cell organisms live in another dimension when first discovered if the word was pop. But they are in our dimension too. One might say faster than light travel is in another dimension but really it is all relative to the observer. So I don't really see the purpose of using those terms except to skirt the issue of an unexplained mystery or as a way to refuse to accept new data. We know now the there is no way the energy > > of motion by > > some kind of big bang can account for the energy of motion > > observed. > >Not true. >If, in fact, matter is going superluminal as it crosses the >horizon that could explain the "missing" matter in our local >universe. Aha! There is your myth. Mysterious dark matter is a theory to explain the unaccounted energy. There are many other possible explainations. I have researched Vera Rubin's work to some degree. She is not sold on mysterious dark matter as being the reason by any degree. Matter may not be "missing" as you call it. My theory accounts for it due to gravity. So does Bachall and Perlmutter. True, I am not sure about the size needed in the whirlpool. The three built so far are small, 2' to 3' across, but do show the action I describe. My thinking is still I don't "know". I try very hard to express theory as theory and not try to make it look like science. To bad all of Einstein's work and our modern big bang type science has not keep that simple creed. Once they started teaching theory as science all crediblity and all real hope was lost. Only due to the Hubble vision can science now see clearly enough to know they were dead wrong. I proceed under the scientific method theorists propose, scientist dispose. I am getting unbiased scientific data that way. It is not up to the theorist, nor should it be, to prove or disprove anything. That is the job of science. Unfortunatly there are not many real scientists left. I have talked to Hal and he has stated Whirlpower is ZPE if it works. But he has made no announcement to test. Hal Fox has offered to publish our latest in his Editor's Choice section. We have some real data now and hope to work it up very soon into an acceptable presentation. Personally I have no idea how to do the physics speak. I don't claim to be a scientist. But I do have the help of some real scientists now, finally, after screaming this theory out for years, as loud of an Eureka as I could. I have a theory. I have a dream. David Dennard http://www.whirlpower.cc ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 10:06:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07225; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:49:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:49:01 -0800 Message-ID: <20000214174818.92093.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.48] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: To Build A Whirlpool (next draft) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:48:18 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"HZi6t.0.lm1.D04gu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New votes are coming in. I wonder why these people can see and other can't. Note the high school girl's comments near the end. I think it will be really something when a youngster is shown to have more common sense than so many know it all hot shot scientists. And really it is just common sense to build a whirlpool and test it in a scientific manner, Whirlpower or not. David ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Press Release Whirlpower Declaration Feb 14 2000 To Build A Whirlpool To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern: >From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group: This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool built and tested by science. After considerable research it has been shown that a whirlpool has never been built by man before. It is our opinion that one should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general public. The research on this goes back several years on the internet by myself and many, many, years by several people on this list. This information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower Declaration stating the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way that it will generate electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean water in the process! Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving the pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by the pollution and danger of current energy sources. This is not a request for cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however those interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help support our efforts. Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature. This pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar system, the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic. It is seen in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence. Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the world we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few years ago. Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs. Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest of this new understanding and predicted many of the discoveries long before they were announced. Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter (Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall), and the slowing down of the speed of light are all predicted by the relative density displacement basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the fluid nature of space. Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has weathered the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are finally starting to see the possibility. All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a scientific manner. We are asking any and all who may be interested to try it. Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have built several small models that show the action I have described, and we have other tests of principle models by people in our group. We are working on building our next whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on this has been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort and available for all to use. Please help us if you can. All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are some of the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science. We welcome any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being. Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments. Thank you for your consideration, David G. Dennard 655 Doyle LN Dixon Ca USA 95620 http://www.whirlpower.cc daviddennard hotmail.com whirlpower egroups.com Contact Phone 707-678-0402 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study of Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of interest by many mainstream scientists. I guess it's just a bit too revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some. You don't have to have a string of qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with a huge scientific breakthrough. The guy who thought up the theory of plate tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right. So don't be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your vision, David, you may well have the last laugh. I hope you get the scientific support you deserve Bill Bimson Senior Experimental Officer Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre Univerity of Liverpool L69 3BX England ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago when I first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger. I have an active and avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up the challenge to further my understanding in this most intriguing of ideas. I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end I see lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the Whirlpower theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth, extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations. Neil Simmonds nsimmonds yahoo.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am studying vortex motion. This could also apply to vortices driven by gravity. I have looked at your site. You have my full support. Richard Cheney RichardCHENEY leggott.ac.uk +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in large scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test Whirlpower soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary details. I will also try to help any other person that tries to do the same. And as an ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness person or what ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with the Whirlpower ideas! Curt Hallberg Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html http://www.newphys.se qrt.o.tina swipnet.se ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ As theories get more complex,the more the parameters of what will be significant is determined by existing theory... ...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data and an alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a new paradigm is acknowledged. Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are necessary for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also helps to build an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in the old theory. An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same (this is after all what this site and many others try to do) Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can afford to throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a whirlpool effect. Andre aw49 pixie.co.za ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics bashing. He is truely on to something most of those best minds could only say poo or huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out. What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE! I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN THIS!! I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want to admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE! ...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable once the process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle the vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different ways (ha.haa) - Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple WhirlPower!, but I can feel it works / Big time / the Bigger the better!! steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall ekwall2 diac.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David, from time to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought, questioning the amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the vortex. But then my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David really is on to something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system has potential. It surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as impossible. Just think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on their first flying machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David, but now airplanes are a major means of transportation! My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work, but my intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a physicist, I do not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior to be able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal etc. David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other people say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams. Edward Maesen http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine, Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern. One has to see it to understand it. Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have a spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts. This more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside. David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool / hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this spiral form has two components. As he says it, "that of chaos and order, and how the sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that drags a huge donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from Nature, The God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to whirlpools". The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's dream into reality. Cédric Mannu cmannu eternite.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way in the three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met with much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that this theory would not work. Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a huge whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond the surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one must understand the nature of gravity. Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that somebody builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the nature of the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists and researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the universe, and the role gravity has in it. I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower I put together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc David Hubbard dhubcal i-cafe.net ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious R&D, I myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do vote for serious research on David's whirlpool technology. Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any scientist not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then! To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is still flat! Hector D Perez ARK RESEARCH arkresearch hotmail.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a novelist, a writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human nature and the study thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce to the experts and authorities, i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla. I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious in his fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity of the highest order. Ironically, this concept has been presented to him much in the same manner as Einstein's "theorems", purportedly gleaned in a Theta state. At the advent of the 21st century, it would certainly be prudent for "modern" science to exercise a more flexible attitude and approach as we reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, will we - as a collective whole - (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to perhaps glimpse and perceive The raison d'être. I definitely encourage further in-depth exploration of THE WHIRLPOOL THEORY. Carole Fox-Breeding aka Marguerite McCall Las Vegas, Nevada Author--The Heiresses Angel Trilogy Series ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory. Though I am only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this concept could work. It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me that nobody has done any research on it until now. Today in Geography we were watching videos on tornados and hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your theory as I saw cows and houses fly past on the screen. Your theory has definetly given me a lot to think about! I hope that you get the support that you need from the rest of the scientific community. Good luck! ~Marisa M_Demers telus.net ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Whirlpool Theory provides an interesting, and as yet untapped, pathway to understanding our own universe in greater detail. It is my hope that the Scientific Community, the information technology field in particular, will find the potential value of such experiments. The simplicity of this idea alone should cause "Science" to step back and reexamine where we are and where we are going. Because in the end, the universe operates as simply as possible, it is humanity that adds the complexity. Russ Rogers russr planetcable.net http://www.ducktank.net International Who's Who of Information Technology ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ After going through the theory slowly, I saw that this is quite possible indeed, and if it has the rewards it is perceived to have, I don't know why the hell someone doesn't do something about it and try it out in practice to a high degree of accuracy. It could change a whole lot, and if it doesn't, we don't lose anything, but we gain a whole lot of knowledge. But after reading the theory, I understood how it works...quite simple in concept, but has huge implications, and could give scientists a reason to go to work every morning to rethink their previous theories. If it's a vote you want, you got it from me. But I really hope these votes help. I understand that the least we can do to help is vote, whilst you are trying other ways to get it implemented in practice. If it helps us understand Hurricans, Tornadoes and our Milky Way itself, more clearly, it has all the more reason to be implemented in practice with the help of other people interested or able to do so. It's probably the fear of having to rewrite other theories, that keeps them from doing it ! :o/ Lawrence D' Costa solarenigma hotmail.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 12:51:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14695; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:49:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:49:10 -0800 Message-ID: <00c801bf7735$24ef5560$e68e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Potassium Heat Pipe-CF/OU Generator? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:45:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ouvsh.0.Xb3.5f6gu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Since the peak for 3.1 micron (0.4 ev) photons(possible Quasneutron-Quasidineutron LL producers), according to Wien's displacement law is at ~960 K, a Nickel heat pipe containing Hydrogen over Potassium, might act as a self-sustaining CF/OU heat generator. The potassium-containing Nickel Heat Pipes with a Nickel Mesh Wick have been operated for decades (using Argon) at over 600 C (900 K). In this application it might be hard to figure out which end is the evaporator and which end should be the condenser. A thermal oscillator? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 07:43:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30430; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:41:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:41:45 -0800 Message-ID: <38A97533.239FC6E6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:48:03 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_1Pkt1.0.JR7.vENgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 2-15-00 subscribed? test From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 09:51:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29875; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:48:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:48:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:48:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: GPD: a cursory examination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aw1xi1.0.jI7.T5Pgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have constructed a Glow Discharge Panel and made some cursory tests of it. My measurements match those of Jean-Louis Naudin reasonably well except that my observed current is ten times smaller than his...and that makes my power balance look quite ordinary. To be sure, there are measurement challenges presented by this circuit. In fact, I found a very interesting problem that appears to render DVM's nearly useless for this application. Read about it at: http://www.eden.com/~little/gdp/cursory.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 10:34:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16911; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:30:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:30:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:30:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: References: <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ImM6M.0.684.6jPgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:48 AM 2/15/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{I don't know what a "x10 probe" is.... It's a probe with a 9 Meg resistor in series with the input lead so that, when connected to a scope input with a 1 Meg resistance to ground, the voltage that actually reaches the scope's input amplifier, is 1/10th of the voltage that the probe is connected to. (there are also capacitors in the probe that work with the scope's input capacitance to form a 10:1 capacitive voltage divider, too, so the probe will work properly on high-frequency signals as well. >..unless there is a way for you to instruct your scope to divide by 10 >before displaying the waveform. Is there? Yes, the particular scope that JLN and I are using (THS700 series) has configurable input scaling...but it's entirely manual and it's up to you to get it right! According to JLN's web page, he IS doing it right. It is therefore a mystery why his current readings are ~10x higher than mine. Either he is inadvertently CHANGING the input scaling of his probe (I find the configuration menus a bit clumsy to operate)...or his scope is being affected by the severe electrical interference that exists around this particular circuit. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 10:47:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21516; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:44:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:44:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000215134426.007997b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:44:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> References: <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8F_iL1.0.0G5.VwPgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Either he is inadvertently CHANGING the input scaling of his probe (I find >the configuration menus a bit clumsy to operate)...or his scope is being >affected by the severe electrical interference that exists around this >particular circuit. It wouldn't be affected by exactly a factor of ten, would it?!? The noise problem you describe on your web page would lead to fluctuating, apparently random values, I suppose. The fact that Naudin's gadget is not too hot to touch makes it seem very unlikely to me that it is producing as much power as he claims. The energy has to go SOMEWHERE. Everything in this universe ends up as either sludge or waste heat. As Michael Flanders put it, "There'll be no more work, and there'll be perfect peace. . . . Yeah, that's *entropy*, man!" - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 11:36:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12262; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:33:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:33:53 -0800 Message-ID: <38A9A302.F85AB14E cwnet.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:03:54 -0800 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination References: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jSfrk3.0.W_2.WeQgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Very interesting results - which are indeed more in line with traditional expectations, but two questions I have involve some changes to the JLN setup that may or may not be important. First, is the source lead for your IRFZ40 MOSFET connected to -20 volts from the power supply or ground? You mention 36 watts power but only 20 volts. I tried push-pull on my setup also but got better results as pull only with higher potential on the positive side ( I know it shouldn't matter, but it seems to). Second, since you resonant frequency is much lower, is your wire the same 14 AWG radio shack, or something different? If memory serves, I don't recall seeing any frequencies that low in the Roth patent or his articles either. Also, did you get any radiation readings? Regards, Jones Beene Scott Little wrote: > > I have constructed a Glow Discharge Panel and made some cursory tests of > it. My measurements match those of Jean-Louis Naudin reasonably well except > that my observed current is ten times smaller than his...and that makes my > power balance look quite ordinary. > > To be sure, there are measurement challenges presented by this circuit. In > fact, I found a very interesting problem that appears to render DVM's > nearly useless for this application. > > Read about it at: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/gdp/cursory.html > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 12:49:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20530; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:46:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:46:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215144558.0133a520 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:45:58 -0600 To: jonesb9 cwnet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <38A9A302.F85AB14E cwnet.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Vov5n.0.i05.EiRgu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:03 AM 2/15/00 -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >First, is the source lead for your IRFZ40 MOSFET connected to -20 >volts from the power supply or ground? >Second, since you resonant frequency is much lower, is your wire >the same 14 AWG radio shack, or something different? Mine is 18ga clear insulation zip cord. Maybe the main difference is in the secondary of my ignition coil. As JLN noted, there is a DEFINITE resonance in this circuit so the C of the panel must be making a tank with the L of the coil, no? >Also, did you get any radiation readings? No, but I did get some interference signals! I have modified the web report to include discussion of them. There's also a complete schematic of my circuit now. Same URL: http://www.eden.com/~little/gdp/cursory.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 12:51:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13174; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:49:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:49:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> References: <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:48:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"rGzYY1.0.lD3.6lRgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:48 AM 2/15/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{I don't know what a "x10 probe" is.... > >It's a probe with a 9 Meg resistor in series with the input lead so that, >when connected to a scope input with a 1 Meg resistance to ground, the >voltage that actually reaches the scope's input amplifier, is 1/10th of the >voltage that the probe is connected to. (there are also capacitors in the >probe that work with the scope's input capacitance to form a 10:1 >capacitive voltage divider, too, so the probe will work properly on >high-frequency signals as well. ***{Since it assumes that the resistance across the scope is 1 Meg, does that mean a set of probes comes with this particular scope? (If I had been forced to guess, I would have guessed that the probe contained a simple voltage divider--e.g., with an R1 = 9k ohms and an R2 = 1k ohms, with the lead from the scope connected on either side of R2. In that case, it wouldn't matter very much what the internal resistance of the particular scope happened to be, as long as it was in excess of 100k or so.) If the probes do come with the scope, then perhaps it is significant that Naudin's x10 probe does not look like yours. Since you guys are using the same type of scope, maybe Naudin is using the wrong x10 probe--one not suited to his scope. If, for example, the one he is using assumes scope resistance of .1 Meg rather than 1 Meg, then its internal resistance will be .9 Meg, and when used with the THS720P it will divide by 1.9 rather than by 10. In that case, his output power would be about 5.26 times larger than it should be, and his "over unity" result would be explained away. (I know: it just a guess, and you can label it a "wild hypothesis" if you like. My experience, however, has been that such guesses focus the mind, and frequently lead to definitive answers.) --MJ}*** > >>..unless there is a way for you to instruct your scope to divide by 10 >>before displaying the waveform. Is there? > >Yes, the particular scope that JLN and I are using (THS700 series) has >configurable input scaling...but it's entirely manual and it's up to you to >get it right! According to JLN's web page, he IS doing it right. > >It is therefore a mystery why his current readings are ~10x higher than mine. > >Either he is inadvertently CHANGING the input scaling of his probe (I find >the configuration menus a bit clumsy to operate)...or his scope is being >affected by the severe electrical interference that exists around this >particular circuit. > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 13:00:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19226; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:58:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:58:32 -0800 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:58:54 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cez5Q.0.Ci4.ttRgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott I just looked at your setup. Very nice. The fluke digital meter may very well be reading the peak voltage, on one side of the average, then scaling to read the correct voltage for a sinusoidal waveform. You can check this with your signal generator. Try seeing the different readings on a sinewave and a square wave. Then try setting up a half or full wave rectified circuit, and check it with your scope as well as your meter. Check your readings at the frequency you are testing at of course because of capacitance effects. The current readings are really a voltmeter across an internal resistor internal to the DVM. Please report on your findings. Hank On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Scott Little wrote: > I have constructed a Glow Discharge Panel and made some cursory tests of > it. My measurements match those of Jean-Louis Naudin reasonably well except > that my observed current is ten times smaller than his...and that makes my > power balance look quite ordinary. > > To be sure, there are measurement challenges presented by this circuit. In > fact, I found a very interesting problem that appears to render DVM's > nearly useless for this application. > > Read about it at: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/gdp/cursory.html > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 13:25:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28395; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:23:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:23:59 -0800 Message-ID: <20000215212353.22917.qmail nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 15 Feb 00 16:23:53 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA28355 Resent-Message-ID: <"x-IjT2.0.bx6.kFSgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It is also a mystery why his INPUT current exceeds 1A, with 30V supply and 400ohm (R4+R5) resistance. re: s_gcoilinput.gif on http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm In this case the INPUT current also seems 10x too high. Regards, Horace Scott Little wrote: > It is therefore a mystery why his current readings are ~10x higher than mine. > > Either he is inadvertently CHANGING the input scaling of his probe (I find the configuration menus a bit clumsy to operate)...or his scope is being affected by the severe electrical interference that exists around this particular circuit. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 13:53:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08955; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:50:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:50:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:50:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Tb90O3.0.nB2.PeSgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:48 PM 2/15/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Since it assumes that the resistance across the scope is 1 Meg, does >that mean a set of probes comes with this particular scope? It is also pretty much an industry standard to use 1 Meg input impedance for scope inputs. You can buy a 10x probe from anybody and it'll read right on most any scope. However, in both JLN's case and mine, we are using 10x probes supplied by the manufacturer with our scopes. >I would have guessed that the probe contained a simple >voltage divider--e.g., with an R1 = 9k ohms and an R2 = 1k ohms, with the >lead from the scope connected on either side of R2. That would indeed work but it would load the signal to be measured with 10k to ground, which would often be unacceptable. >Since you guys are using the same type >of scope, maybe Naudin is using the wrong x10 probe--one not suited to his >scope. He is using a 10X probe designed for his scope, as am I. Mine is obsolete now (not in the catalog anymore). His appears in the current TEK catalog, I checked it to make sure it was a 10X. >you can label it a "wild hypothesis" if you like. My experience, >however, has been that such guesses focus the mind, and frequently lead to >definitive answers. Good focus incentive. It even got me to go measure the series resistance of my 10x probes. Hopefully, I have given definitive answers. Jean-Louis just sent me a .gif that shows conclusively that he is configuring his scope inputs correctly so that leaves me with only one remaining hypothesis to explain his o-u results as an artifact: His scope measurements are being adversely and strongly affected by the electrical interference from this circuit...or from stray capacitance effects. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:03:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12945; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:01:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:01:46 -0800 Message-ID: <010701bf7808$6934c240$e68e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:59:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF77C5.4682C0A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zyitq.0.5A3.6pSgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF77C5.4682C0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Electrons or Light Leptons (+/-) ? With a dielectric strength of 1,000 volts/mil or more, it's hard to believe that oil will give up it's electrons that easily. http://www.icsd.k12.ny.us/highschool/swirt/science/physics/lesson/07elecst/millikan/millikan.htm ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF77C5.4682C0A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.icsd.k12.ny.us/highschool/swirt/science/physics/less= on/07elecst/millikan/millikan.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.icsd.k12.ny.us/highschool/swirt/science/physics/lesson/0= 7elecst/millikan/millikan.htm Modified=3D405801B20778BF018A ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF77C5.4682C0A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:24:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23151; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:22:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:22:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215162220.013431c4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:22:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xv0RI2.0.ef5.96Tgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:58 PM 2/15/00 -0800, hank scudder made more work for me when he wrote: >The fluke digital meter may very well be reading the peak voltage, on one >side of the average, then scaling to read the correct voltage for a >sinusoidal waveform. You can check this with your signal generator. Try >seeing the different readings on a sinewave and a square wave. Then try >setting up a half or full wave rectified circuit, and check it with your >scope as well as your meter. Hank, the Fluke 87 is a true RMS meter so it doesn't do anything crude like that but, in the interest of science, I tested it, a Keithley 2000 (also true RMS), and the little scope (TEK720A) on various 3.69 kilohertz waveforms: TEK scope waveform w/ 10X probe Fluke 87 Keithley square 2.636 2.689 2.685 sine 2.659 2.684 2.686 sawtooth 2.638 2.682 2.685 half-wave sine 2.627* 2.683 2.683 The scope voltage readings came from its built-in RMS measurement feature. It's readings are only a few percent lower than the very well correlated Fluke and Keithley readings. *To get the right reading (i.e. one that agreed with the DVM's) from the scope with the half-wave signal, I had to AC couple the input so the half-wave signal would be symmetrical about zero. With a DC coupling (where the half-wave signal does not go negative), you get an RMS of about 3.86 volts because, in fact, the RMS value of that waveform IS higher. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:33:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27178; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:30:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:30:49 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:15:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20000215221514312.AAC278 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"TGWEr1.0.Xe6.METgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >His scope measurements are being adversely and strongly affected by the >electrical interference from this circuit...or from stray capacitance effects. He said that his scope was ungrounded, but I wasn't sure exactly what he meant, or how that affects measurements. If your stray capacitance effect is correct, would a reading on a separate, non-inductive circuit placed near the plasma circuit while the plasma circuit is in operation decide whether or not the scope is accurate, or would it just muddy the waters more? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:52:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02140; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:50:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:50:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215165044.01344728 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:50:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <20000215221514312.AAC278 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"29dcs3.0.GX.nWTgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:15 PM 2/15/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >He said that his scope was ungrounded, but I wasn't sure exactly what he >meant, or how that affects measurements. His scope, like mine, can be operated on batteries so that it touches the world electrically only where it connects to the circuit being measured. This is as opposed to traditional scopes which are plugged into the wall and can thus exert great influence over the circuit being tested. It SHOULD be better to have an ungrounded instrument. >If your stray capacitance effect >is correct, would a reading on a separate, non-inductive circuit placed near >the plasma circuit while the plasma circuit is in operation decide whether >or not the scope is accurate, or would it just muddy the waters more? I don't know. This circuit presents difficult measurement challenges that I don't pretend to understand fully. However, I do know that we're in trouble when tilting the DVM on its side triples the reading! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 15:03:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06190; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:01:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:01:39 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:12:48 -0500 Message-ID: <20000215231248171.AAA178 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"dPZF_2.0.eW1.IhTgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >I don't know. This circuit presents difficult measurement challenges that >I don't pretend to understand fully. However, I do know that we're in >trouble when tilting the DVM on its side triples the reading! Yeah, that happens to me too when I stand on my head. There seems to be some slight formatting problem with the webpage that obscures the particular part of the discussion that talks about the tripling of the reading. It also occurs higher up in the document as well around the area of the circuit diagram. Maybe it's just my browser, I don't know, but you're right about the tilting thing. That's weird! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 15:20:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11815; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:18:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:18:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000215181757.007a1360 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:17:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CmEuW.0.Xu2.ywTgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Jean-Louis just sent me a .gif that shows conclusively that he is >configuring his scope inputs correctly so that leaves me with only one >remaining hypothesis to explain his o-u results as an artifact: > >His scope measurements are being adversely and strongly affected by the >electrical interference from this circuit...or from stray capacitance effects. Well, you have no basis for believing that either, unless you can reproduce the 10x yourself, with your own equipment. At this point I do not see how you can have any hypotheses left. If I understand you correctly, you should not be able to reproduce a stable, precisely 10x signal with this noise interferance. Or is the noise very "regular" and steady, and does it always produce the same level of distortion? Perhaps Naudin could move his equipment around the way you moved yours, to see if the numbers change. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 19:12:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09257; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:10:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:10:09 -0800 Message-ID: <003901bf782b$4238aa80$21b47ed8 mrand> From: "mrand access" To: Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:09:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"VAOKR1.0.YG2.HKXgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Scott Little >> >No, but I did get some interference signals! I have modified the web >report to include discussion of them. There's also a complete schematic of >my circuit now. Same URL: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/gdp/cursory.html Interesting tests results. What spark coil did you use? For car make and model? What was the primary resistance? I have been looking for a ignition coil that had the 3 ohm primary resistance that Jean-Louis used, that he found in spare parts shop, but they are all under 1 ohm. Regards, Michael From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 19:48:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA23679; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:47:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:47:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215214854.0072ad48 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:48:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000215181757.007a1360 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"I0DpM.0.nn5.ItXgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:17 PM 2/15/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >If I understand you correctly, you should not be able to reproduce a >stable, precisely 10x signal with this noise interferance. JLN's current reading is only approximately 10x higher than mine. Sorry for the confusion. I DID speculate that JLN had a precise 10X error in his measurements but, since then, he has demonstrated that he's got everything set correctly for his measurements. >Perhaps Naudin could move his equipment around the way you moved yours, to >see if the numbers change. Yes, I expect him to be trying this ASAP. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 19:51:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25414; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:49:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:49:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000215215057.007271a8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:50:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <003901bf782b$4238aa80$21b47ed8 mrand> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ytk1D3.0.-C6.MvXgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:09 PM 2/15/00 -0800, mrand access wrote: >Interesting tests results. What spark coil did you use? For car make and >model? It's a generic replacement type that cost $30. I'll give full details including primary and secondary resistances tomorrow. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 20:49:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14723; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:47:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:47:57 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:47:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8nakask4kmug4sei4paqbccg78db2uj6gn 4ax.com> References: <20000215212353.22917.qmail nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> In-Reply-To: <20000215212353.22917.qmail nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA14501 Resent-Message-ID: <"yjZLL2.0.ub3.ylYgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 15 Feb 00 16:23:53 EST, Horace wrote: > >It is also a mystery why his INPUT current exceeds 1A, with 30V supply and >400ohm (R4+R5) resistance. > >re: s_gcoilinput.gif on http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm > >In this case the INPUT current also seems 10x too high. [snip] Note that the +30 V is *after* the 390 ohm resistor, not before it. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 21:18:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26767; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:17:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:17:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:16:53 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA26737 Resent-Message-ID: <"PIvWu2.0.9Y6.eBZgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:48:27 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >To be sure, there are measurement challenges presented by this circuit. In >fact, I found a very interesting problem that appears to render DVM's >nearly useless for this application. > >Read about it at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/gdp/cursory.html Hi Scott, On your web page you write: >"The signal was essentially absent until the unit was about 5 cm away from the panel and then it burst into activity. Moving the unit out to 7 cm stopped the signal entirely. Further, when the G-M unit was near enough to obtain a signal, the signal was greatly affected by the presence/absence of my hand touching the unit. Misleadingly, the signal was affected by small metal shields placed between the panel and the G-M tube entrance but the other observations prove that it is not a real x-ray signal." It seems to me that radio interference should be detected further away than 5 cm. Furthermore small metal shields shouldn't make much difference. However low power electrons ejected from the plasma would be stopped readily by 7 cm of air, or small metal plates. They would also play havoc with the electronics of any equipment that got too close, if it were housed in a thin plastic house that they could penetrate. You might like to see what effect a magnet has. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 22:18:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10262; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:16:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:16:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216001806.00727ac0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:18:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JFftf2.0.GW2.B3agu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:16 PM 2/16/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >It seems to me that radio interference should be detected further away than >5 cm. Furthermore small metal shields shouldn't make much difference. >However low power electrons ejected from the plasma would be stopped readily >by 7 cm of air, or small metal plates. They would also play havoc with the >electronics of any equipment that got too close, if it were housed in a thin >plastic house that they could penetrate. >You might like to see what effect a magnet has. OK, I'll do some more checking tomorrow. Meanwhile, can you figure out what the range of 5 keV electrons would be in air? 10 keV? Thanks, Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 23:33:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA26961; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:31:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:31:21 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <6.23b364f.25dbac08 aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:30:16 EST Subject: Ungrounded tests of the GDP To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"7x0hn2.0.8b6.39bgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, Thanks to All for your helpfull advices and most particularly to Scott Little for his support about my current GDP tests. You will find below the latest test results : GDP tests - Feb 15th, 2000 ( ungrounded tests ) --------------------------------------------------------------------- The purpose of this test is to use a GDP apparatus fully UNGROUNDED. I have placed all the testing setup on a thick polystyren plate ( 40mm) at 110mm above a wooden table. The GDP generator is powered by CdNi batteries cells ( 24 x 1.2V/1200mA). So, the GDP apparatus is able to run on its own ungrounded power source. The current is measured with the Tektronix TX1-DMM used has a voltmeter and placed across a 10.6 ohms (non inductive) resistor in serie between the coil output and the GDP Panel. The DMM wires used have small length and are twisted (see the picture) to reduce significantly the parasitic RF inductions effects by the High Voltage. The measurements with this fully ungrounded setup seem to confirm again the previous measured currents values, the voltmeter across the 10.6 ohms resistor ( at 6.55 kHz ) gives a current flow of about 95 mA at 5kV... see the full story and pictures at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp5.htm Today, as Scott has notified during his latest GDP replication, the RF Interferences can be a major problem in the accuracy of the measurements. I am conducting some new setups for investigating further this. Stay tuned..... Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 00:34:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA06599; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:33:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:33:11 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF7815.935FAAF0 istf-1-50.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:34:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF7815.935FAAF0" Resent-Message-ID: <"3hqst3.0.sc1.63cgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF7815.935FAAF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, Great job, as usual, of investigation and analysis. It definitely = appears that measurement/interference may be the answer here, and I = don't believe (so far) that this thing is OU. But is it still claimed that Naudin's panel stays much cooler than it = should? If that is true, then something interesting is happening = regardless of the in/out power balance. If there really _are_ unusual operating characteristics to his setup, = perhaps a more thorough look at differences between your replication and = his are in order. Aside from the electrical parameters, materials can be = critical; and both your panel body and your zip-wire insulation = materials seem to be different: "polystyrene foam sheet" vs. "fiberglass = reinforced epoxy laminate", and clear vs opaque insulation on the wire = indicate possibly different material properties. Have these been been = addressed as to their possible significance? Again, this is unimportant = if the "cooler" observation is false. 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So, I have conducted new tests to investigate this further. The previous ungrounded setup ( powered by CdNi batteries ) has been used here. The Tektronix TX1-DMM ( accuracy +-0.002% between 20 Hz to 20 KHz in AC Voltage ) has been placed on a plastic box and at 1 meter away from the GDP Panel. The wires used with the DMM have been twisted so as to reduce significantly the parasitic RF induction. The Measured voltage accross a 10.6 ohms (non inductive) resistor is 0.929V AC ( at 5 KV AC 6.45kHz ) for an input of 49.4 Watts ( 29.4 V DC @ 1.68 A ). see the full story and pictures at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp5.htm Stay tuned..... Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 02:03:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA03044; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:02:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:02:41 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:13:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20000216101354140.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"d8RL61.0.Ul.1Ndgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >It seems to me that radio interference should be detected further away than >5 cm. Furthermore small metal shields shouldn't make much difference. >However low power electrons ejected from the plasma would be stopped readily >by 7 cm of air, or small metal plates. They would also play havoc with the >electronics of any equipment that got too close, if it were housed in a thin >plastic house that they could penetrate. >You might like to see what effect a magnet has. > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk I've read in other peer reviewed literature that this type of plasma does in fact absorb and /or reflect RF. I would think that there are better ways to do that for cloaking purposes, but in this case, considering the flyback nature of the voltage, it may be possible that the EMI is contained more or less to a narrow range. An interesting experiment would be to take an empty 2 liter clear plastic bottle, and fill it with smoke from an incense stick. Cap it off, wait for the smoke to be still (nonmoving) inside the bottle, and then approach the various components to see if any movement occurs in the smoke. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 02:25:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA07459; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:24:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:24:58 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:36:11 -0500 Message-ID: <20000216103611203.AAA247 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"gNbdX3.0.Tq1.whdgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan writes: >If there really _are_ unusual operating characteristics to his setup, perhaps a more thorough look at differences between your replication and his are in order. Aside from the electrical parameters, materials can be critical; and both your panel body and your zip-wire insulation materials seem to be different: "polystyrene foam sheet" vs. "fiberglass reinforced epoxy laminate", and clear vs opaque insulation on the wire indicate possibly different material properties. Have these been been addressed as to their possible significance? Again, this is unimportant if the "cooler" observation is false. > >Dan Quickert There are a large number of differences in the two setups, but I'm surprised that Scott managed to get the thing assembled, working, tested, and everything up on the webpage in such a short period of time. The differences in the shapes of the current waveforms indicate that Jean-Louis is possibly getting a more intense plasma discharge. The materials and driving parameters are sure to be the keys to that. In all though, even if the measurements do turn out to be an artifact, this has been more fun than an Easter Egg hunt! Let's hope the bunny leaves us with excess power. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 03:07:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA15594; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:06:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:06:29 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <70.11a0551.25dbde8f aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:05:51 EST Subject: EM induction by the GDP now measured To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Resent-Message-ID: <"HBQOy1.0.ap3.rIegu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, The EM induction effects generated by the GDP panel in action has also been measured with a Tesla Monitor placed between a distance from 10 mm to 100 mm. At 100 mm away from the GDP Panel the EM induction effects are significantly reduced. see the full story and pictures at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp5.htm Stay tuned..... Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 05:18:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA08338; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:14:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:14:56 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38AAB11E.5A8EBA4D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:15:58 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment References: <010701bf7808$6934c240$e68e1d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VGc9H3.0.C22.GBggu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Electrons or Light Leptons (+/-) ? With a dielectric strength of 1,000 volts/mil or more, it's > hard to believe that oil will give up it's electrons that easily. Hi Frederick, I was always under the impression that electrons were added to the oil drops from the nozzle (or from the air); a drop didn't have to "give up" electrons. Doesn't something similar happen when combing dry hair, and the comb then can lift small pieces of paper? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 06:05:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24960; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:04:09 -0800 Message-ID: <20000216140404.27486.qmail nw179.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 16 Feb 00 09:04:04 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA24929 Resent-Message-ID: <"oQkY02.0.s56.Ovggu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If this is the case then there are glaring errors on Mr.Naudin's schematic diagrams. The red rectangles denote test points CH1, CH2, etc... It follows that a red rectangle with +30V inside would also denote a test point. Properly, power supply points should be denoted with a filled arrow. Mr.Naudin should endavour to be more correct in his publications. Horace Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Note that the +30 V is *after* the 390 ohm resistor, not before it. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > On 15 Feb 00 16:23:53 EST, Horace wrote: > > > >It is also a mystery why his INPUT current exceeds 1A, with 30V supply and 400ohm (R4+R5) resistance. > > > >re: s_gcoilinput.gif on http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp4.htm > > > >In this case the INPUT current also seems 10x too high. > [snip] ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 07:27:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25310; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:25:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:25:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216102523.007a4290 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:25:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215214854.0072ad48 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000215181757.007a1360 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lOE7X.0.OB6.s5igu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >JLN's current reading is only approximately 10x higher than mine. Sorry >for the confusion. I DID speculate that JLN had a precise 10X error in his >measurements . . . Ah, I see. Some quick questions: Are your readings fairly stable when the meters are exposed to the noise, or do they jump around at random? Do they go back to about the same level when you put the meter at the same spot on the table? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 07:45:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00949; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:42:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:42:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216094311.01208484 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:43:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <003901bf782b$4238aa80$21b47ed8 mrand> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AwTPw3.0.hE.0Migu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:09 PM 2/15/00 -0800, mrand access wrote: >Interesting tests results. What spark coil did you use? It's made by Accel Performance Products. It's called the Accel Performance Coil, Part No. 8140 Yellow 12 Volt Universal Coil. It says "Super Stock" on the coil label also. It's primary resistance is 1.3 ohms, secondary resistance is 9.07 kohms. It cost $30 at Pep Boys. It was behind the parts counter...i.e. not out on the floor. Today, I'm going to do some more experimentation with my GDP. I'll report later. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 07:52:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08283; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004801bf789d$d79184e0$02441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <010701bf7808$6934c240$e68e1d26 fjsparber> <38AAB11E.5A8EBA4D@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Subject: Re: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:49:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"zO7Vl.0.L12.eTigu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Taylor J. Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 6:15 AM Subject: Re: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment Even so, the electron work function of the nozzle is over 5.0 ev, wheras it only takes ~ 0.4 ev to create a Light Lepton Pair. You assume that the comb is rubbing electrons off of your hair, but, you might be creating LLs with the friction from the comb. After all, 0.4 ev is merely 6.4E-20 Joules and hair (or animal fur) is a hydrogenous protein, and the rubber combs are hydrogenous materials also. THE POINT: ALL STATIC ELECTRICITY INVOLVES HYDROGENOUS MATERIALS AND FRICTION. FOREVER AMBER! :-) Regards, Frederick > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Electrons or Light Leptons (+/-) ? With a dielectric strength of 1,000 volts/mil or more, it's > > hard to believe that oil will give up it's electrons that easily. > > Hi Frederick, > > I was always under the impression that electrons > were added to the oil drops from the nozzle > (or from the air); a drop didn't have to "give > up" electrons. Doesn't something similar happen > when combing dry hair, and the comb then can > lift small pieces of paper? > > Jack Smith > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 08:01:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09032; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:59:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:59:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216095932.01208c78 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:59:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215114827.01338bd4 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Z42tE3.0.wC2.Kbigu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:16 PM 2/16/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >It seems to me that radio interference should be detected further away than >5 cm. Furthermore small metal shields shouldn't make much difference. >However low power electrons ejected from the plasma would be stopped readily >by 7 cm of air, or small metal plates. I found some range data for low energy betas in "Electron and Nuclear Physics" by Hoag. 5 keV electrons have a range of only 1 mm in air. 10 keV electrons (which the panel could possibly be producing via an incidental voltage-doubling process involving the capacitance of the wire's insulation) will go about 2 mm. I didn't dare place the G-M counter any closer than about 5 cm (way out of the range of any possible electron emissions). I don't think it would survive a direct high-voltage arc to the counter body. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 08:12:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11080; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:10:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:10:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216101011.01207794 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:10:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DZk1Z.0.vi2.Tligu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:38 AM 2/16/00 EST, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >Dear All, >The Measured voltage accross a 10.6 ohms (non inductive) resistor is 0.929V >AC ( at 5 KV AC 6.45kHz ) for an input of 49.4 Watts ( 29.4 V DC @ 1.68 A ). Jean-Louis, I have another crude calorimetry test for you: Please replace your large 10.6 ohm resistor with a 100 ohm 1/4 watt resistor, the type commonly used on printed circuit boards. It is important to use a 1/4 watt resistor for this test. If the current is really ~100 mA, as your measurements indicate, the power dissipated in the 100 ohm resistor will be 1 watt and the 1/4 watt resistor will smoke. However, if the current is really only ~20 mA, as my measurements suggest, the power dissipated in the 100 ohm resistor will only be 0.04 watts and the 1/4 watt resistor will be happy. I also will perform this test. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 08:18:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17947; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:16:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:16:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:16:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"kAAdQ1.0.HO4.krigu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > >Jean-Louis just sent me a .gif that shows conclusively that he is >configuring his scope inputs correctly so that leaves me with only one >remaining hypothesis to explain his o-u results as an artifact: > >His scope measurements are being adversely and strongly affected by the >electrical interference from this circuit...or from stray capacitance effects. ***{Three points/questions: (1) I notice that Naudin is using a THS720P scope, and you are using a THS720A (as I recall). What does the letter suffix mean? Does it indicate a difference in the operating characteristics of the scopes, or merely something such as year of manufacture? (2) I notice that in Naudin's coil schematic, and in yours, a connection is shown between the secondary coil and the primary. What is the purpose of that connection? (3) If the GDP is, in fact, producing nitrous oxide, then you guys need to be very cautious. I read an article the other day about one of the participants in the Biosphere II experiment, who suffered impaired motor skills due to a slow buildup of nitrous oxide that occurred in the sealed environment of that experiment. (He can barely walk without assistance, as a result.) Thus you and Naudin need to be very careful to ensure that you get good ventilation and a high rate of air turnover when conducting this experiment. Prolonged exposure to very low levels of nitrous oxide causes severe problems, and brief exposure to high levels may have similar effects. A word to the wise. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 08:27:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21786; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:25:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: <008301bf78a2$a503fbc0$02441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Forever Amber & Light Leptons Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:24:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF785F.90C94900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"cOe9f.0.KK5.izigu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF785F.90C94900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, You can read this, or Pith on it. http://www.eonline.com/Facts/Movies/0%2C60%2C34690%2C00.html Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF785F.90C94900 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="E! Online - Movie Facts - Forever Amber (1947).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="E! Online - Movie Facts - Forever Amber (1947).url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.eonline.com/Facts/Movies/0%2C60%2C34690%2C00.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.eonline.com/Facts/Movies/0%2C60%2C34690%2C00.html Modified=A0A07842A278BF01D4 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF785F.90C94900-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 08:54:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17453; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216105050.01342468 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:50:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216101011.01207794 mail.eden.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bs5yo1.0.OG4.pLjgu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:10 AM 2/16/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >If the current is really ~100 mA, as your measurements indicate, the power >dissipated in the 100 ohm resistor will be 1 watt and the 1/4 watt resistor >will smoke. OK, I tried running 1 watt thru a 1/4 watt resistor and it doesn't smoke. However, it does get hot enough to burn your finger...and to "sizzle" a little when touched with something wet. In other words, it gets above 100C. Jean-Louis, you'll have to touch the 100 ohm resistor to see if it's getting real hot. I tried the 100 ohm resistor in my circuit and, operating as before with about 16 mA RMS current indicated by my THS720 scope, the resistor remained cool to the touch...as it should with only .026 watts (.016^2 * 100). Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:11:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04160; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:10:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:10:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216104554.01343360 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:45:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gfvkl1.0.w01.udjgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:16 AM 2/16/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >(1) I notice that Naudin is using a THS720P scope, and you are using a >THS720A (as I recall). What does the letter suffix mean? Check out www.tek.com. It appears to be only a difference in firmware. The "P" unit is intended for industrial power measurements and has some canned routines to calculate power factor, etc. The A unit is a general purpose scope. Both, however, can multiply Ch1 by Ch2, which is how we're getting true power. >(2) I notice that in Naudin's coil schematic, and in yours, a connection is >shown between the secondary coil and the primary. What is the purpose of >that connection? That connection provides the return path to ground for the HV delivered to the spark plugs in an automobile. >If the GDP is, in fact, producing nitrous oxide, then you guys need to >be very cautious. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:13:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04653; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:11:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:11:14 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <7d.13ca63b.25dc3407 aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:10:31 EST Subject: Re: [Naudin's glow discharge device] To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA04484 Resent-Message-ID: <"htgVN.0.Z81.nejgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 16/02/00 15:05:34 Paris, Madrid, horacex usa.net a écrit : > Properly, power supply points should be denoted with a filled arrow. Thanks for your VERY HELPFULL informations.... Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:18:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA09510; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:16:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:16:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216114557.007ad980 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:45:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216101011.01207794 mail.eden.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"x2ti22.0.UK2.jjjgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >If the current is really ~100 mA, as your measurements indicate, the power >dissipated in the 100 ohm resistor will be 1 watt and the 1/4 watt resistor >will smoke. An excellent idea! The classic smoke test. Perhaps a fuse would be more conventional? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:23:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13418; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:22:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:22:12 -0800 Message-ID: <009001bf789f$2881ed80$e8637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: "Vortex" Subject: price of Pd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:59:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"F6ihp3.0.aH3.4pjgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, You may be interested to learn that Pd has reached almost $700/oz. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:36:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22242; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:34:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:34:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216123403.007af400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:34:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Vortex" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: price of Pd In-Reply-To: <009001bf789f$2881ed80$e8637dc7 computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8r1uu2.0.SR5.b-jgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: >You may be interested to learn that Pd has reached almost $700/oz. Martin Fleischmann says this is because of instability in Russia and increased use of palladium catalysts in automobiles. The price of oil is also at a 10-year high. I think this is caused by increased demand, not by a drop in supply or by politics. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:07:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04234; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:05:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:05:19 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:16:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20000216181628468.AAA300 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"IUW1M3.0.y11.URkgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >I tried the 100 ohm resistor in my circuit and, operating as before with >about 16 mA RMS current indicated by my THS720 scope, the resistor remained >cool to the touch...as it should with only .026 watts (.016^2 * 100). The resisitor was a great idea, Scott. So unless there is a 10x undermeasurement of his input power, which would be unlikely, this EP looks pretty real, then... Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:15:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06888; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:09:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:09:28 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: price of Pd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:20:34 -0500 Message-ID: <20000216182034531.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"kTrUh.0.Uh1.NVkgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ed Wall wrote: > >>You may be interested to learn that Pd has reached almost $700/oz. > >Martin Fleischmann says this is because of instability in Russia and >increased use of palladium catalysts in automobiles. > >The price of oil is also at a 10-year high. I think this is caused by >increased demand, not by a drop in supply or by politics. > >- Jed The price of oil is determined by production rates, which are adjustable at will by the owners of the oil companies. The same holds true for any commodity that is owned by a cartel. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:30:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12499; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:23:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:23:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216132240.007ae640 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:22:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: price of Pd In-Reply-To: <20000216182034531.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3zbc72.0.C33.6ikgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >The price of oil is determined by production rates, which are adjustable at >will by the owners of the oil companies. The same holds true for any >commodity that is owned by a cartel. I know that the oil companies and OPEC *think* they are a cartel, and they sometimes function as one, but they are not good at it. They do not have much control over their members. For example, OPEC members once signed a formal agreement under which authorized investigators would go to well sites and refineries, look through production records, and make sure the countries were sticking to their production quotas. The agreement was a dead letter from the day it was signed. No major oil producing country will let the inspectors in. (An agreement like that would violate U.S. or European anti-trust laws, needless to say.) This is described in a good book about the history and present structure of the oil business: D. Yergin, "The Prize," (Touchstone, 1991) 885 pages! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:49:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21569; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:44:56 -0800 Message-ID: <03c801bf78ad$bf790d00$a701aec7 craig> From: "Craig Haynie" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000216123403.007af400 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: price of Pd Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:42:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"j1yEC2.0.wG5.d0lgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The price of oil is also at a 10-year high. I think this is caused by > increased demand, not by a drop in supply or by politics. Actually I think it's because the money supply has gone through the roof this past year. Rising commodity prises are the first sign of inflation. Commodities are the building blocks of all other products. The increased production costs from companies using these commodities will be passed up the line, ultimately to the consumer. 1) Companies have more money to spend because their stock prices are high and their earnings are up. 2) Consumers have more money to spend because of higher leverage, asset inflation, stock option plans, and rising portfolio values. 3) Companies expand production to meet an increase in demand. 4) Increased production bids up the cost of the raw material. 5) Higher raw material costs force production prices higher. 6) Higher production prices force higher retail prices. 7) Higher retail prices force higher wages. We're now at step 4. The next step is 5, and we should start to see an increase in the Production Price Index soon. Craig (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 11:27:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05663; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:25:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:25:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000216181628468.AAA300 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:25:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems Resent-Message-ID: <"eeKXp2.0.KO1.kclgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott writes: >>I tried the 100 ohm resistor in my circuit and, operating as before with >>about 16 mA RMS current indicated by my THS720 scope, the resistor remained >>cool to the touch...as it should with only .026 watts (.016^2 * 100). > >The resisitor was a great idea, Scott. So unless there is a 10x >undermeasurement of his input power, which would be unlikely, this EP looks >pretty real, then... ***{I don't think Naudin has done the resistor test yet. Scott just verified that in his circuit--which is not claimed to be OU--the resistor remained cool. And even if Naudin does the test and the resistor gets hot, I will continue to distrust the input power measurements until more attention is devoted to verifying that they are correct. (If Naudin puts his scope probes on the input side of the coil and verifies that the product of channel 1 and channel 2 matches his input power calculations, and if the resistor gets hot enough to burn his finger, then I will begin to get very interested in this result.) --MJ}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 11:33:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07755; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:30:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:30:52 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216141124.007b1cf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:11:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: price of Pd In-Reply-To: <03c801bf78ad$bf790d00$a701aec7 craig> References: <3.0.6.32.20000216123403.007af400 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"PcpeU.0.5v1.ehlgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: >Actually I think it's because the money supply has gone through the roof >this past year. Rising commodity prises are the first sign of inflation. >Commodities are the building blocks of all other products. . . . Could be! And terms like "commodity prices" are the first sign that the discussion has gone over my head. Sort of like "QED plasma oscillations of PdH(D)x lattice," which is in this abstract I am translating. God only knows what that means. I am pretty sure that's the term though. The only thing I thought I understood about economics is that when you buy a book for $5, and you sell it for $4, you lose money and eventually you go out of business. It's what the Japanese call "a bicycle business:" stop cranking and you fall over. It turns out the law has been repealed in the New Era of the 21st Century Economy, and Jeff Bezos of Amazon.com was Time Magazine Man of the Year for proving it. I wonder though . . . if he ever stops, what will prevent his customers (including me) from typing "BN.COM"?!? I don't get it. I don't know that I wanna get it. If I do get it, will calamine lotion make it go away? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 11:39:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09697; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:38:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:38:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:38:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: GDP: Second look Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MdHVn1.0.MN2.Oolgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've done some more tests on the GDP: http://www.eden.com/~little/gdp/second.html The bottom line is this: I don't think I'll ever trust an AC voltage measurement made in the vicinity of AC high voltage again! Jed, the DVM shows a steady, usually wrong, reading that depends upon where you connect it in the circuit, where you place your hands, and where other meters connected to the circuit are located! My scope is producing readings that I believe...but only because they look normal...i.e. support Conservation of Energy. On the other hand, JLN's scope readings show massive over-unity...and he's using essentially the same scope that I am! Phew! I'm taking a break from the ozone for a while! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:04:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17991; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:02:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:02:23 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: <20000216201334968.AAA159 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ef_zW2.0._O4.E9mgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{I don't think Naudin has done the resistor test yet. Scott just >verified that in his circuit--which is not claimed to be OU--the resistor >remained cool. And even if Naudin does the test and the resistor gets hot, >I will continue to distrust the input power measurements until more >attention is devoted to verifying that they are correct. (If Naudin puts >his scope probes on the input side of the coil and verifies that the >product of channel 1 and channel 2 matches his input power calculations, >and if the resistor gets hot enough to burn his finger, then I will begin >to get very interested in this result.) --MJ}*** You're right, I completely misread Scott's post. I thought that he had put the resistor in the circuit, and that it did get over 100dC. I'm just a little over excited, I guess. Sorry, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:15:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13810; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:09:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:09:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216150844.007af300 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:08:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GDP: Second look In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UQ43s3.0.iN3.eFmgu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >The bottom line is this: I don't think I'll ever trust an AC voltage >measurement made in the vicinity of AC high voltage again! > >Jed, the DVM shows a steady, usually wrong, reading that depends upon where >you connect it in the circuit, where you place your hands, and where other >meters connected to the circuit are located! Goodness, gracious! I believe the Newman machine produces high voltage spikes, and Newman told me that he makes his measurements with "a meter." If he has a modern, digital meter, your results cast doubt upon his measurements. He is the kind of fellow who might use an old-fashioned coil-and-spring one instead, which I suppose would be immune to this problem. Maybe you should try one? I suppose it would be immune because I am assuming that RF noise or something is confusing electronic components in the Fluke 87 meters. On the other hand, your latest web page note says you still saw "asymmetry" when both meters were attached but placed a good distance from the coils. ???? Gee, even a simple-looking electrical experiment can be tough to pin down. To prove that Naudin is right or wrong, you will have to first reproduce the conditions he sees, which I gather you have not done -- not exactly. You have demonstrated some important places to look for an artifact, and suggested an excellent smoke test. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:15:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21877; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:11:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:11:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216104554.01343360 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:09:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 Resent-Message-ID: <"3m10s3.0.bL5._Hmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:16 AM 2/16/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>(1) I notice that Naudin is using a THS720P scope, and you are using a >>THS720A (as I recall). What does the letter suffix mean? > >Check out www.tek.com. It appears to be only a difference in firmware. >The "P" unit is intended for industrial power measurements and has some >canned routines to calculate power factor, etc. The A unit is a general >purpose scope. Both, however, can multiply Ch1 by Ch2, which is how we're >getting true power. > >>(2) I notice that in Naudin's coil schematic, and in yours, a connection is >>shown between the secondary coil and the primary. What is the purpose of >>that connection? > >That connection provides the return path to ground for the HV delivered to >the spark plugs in an automobile. ***{Since you guys are tapping the secondary directly on that side, don't you think you should cut that connection and see what effect it would have? After all, it does provide a split pathway for the current on the secondary side of the transformer--a path which allows it to feed back through the primary to the power supply/battery, with unpredictable results. Who knows what it is doing to the power supply set-point, for example? And the same applies to the battery pack Naudin cobbled together, which has no set-point. I don't think we can assume that the inputs to the coil primary are DC, given the wild oscillations and feedback potential that exists here, and yet I haven't seen any scope traces that have looked at the input side. What if Naudin is really pulling a lot more through his supply/battery pack than his DC assumptions would seem to indicate? Another point: assuming a 4-stroke cycle engine, redlining at 6000 rpm, with 6 cylinders, that comes out to a spark every two cycles, per cylinder, so in that case the coil would be producing [(6000/60)/2](6) = 300 sparks/sec, probably from a 12 volt DC input. That, in all likelihood, is the condition in which these types of coil are designed to operate. You guys, however, are operating them at from 3000 to 5000 sparks/sec, using 30 volt DC input. Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't literally burst into flames. This whole set-up looks squirrelly to me, for reasons that are similar to the reasons that I have come to distrust the "over unity" claims associated with electrolytic cell experiments: the electrical environment is enormously complex, loaded with potential for sparking and bizarre feedback effects, and hence is precisely the sort of situation which calls for a calorimetry based power measurement. In such cases, a conflict between calorimetry and a wattmeter cannot be resolved by declaring both to be correct, because we would not expect the wattmeter type of measurement to be accurate under these conditions. Thus if metered input power seems to be less than the amount of heat produced, it does *not* suggest that the circuit is "over unity;" and if metered input power and metered output power do not agree, that is to be expected. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >>If the GDP is, in fact, producing nitrous oxide, then you guys need to >>be very cautious. > >Thanks. ***{By the way, the article with the info about the long term effects of nitrous oxide ("laughing gas") on motor neurons is in the Feb. 2000 issue of *Discover.* It is entitled "Staying Alive," and is on pg. 57-61. It provides a graphic illustration of why the use of this gas in dentistry has declined as more has been learned about its potential side effects. Frankly, I would let a dentist drill on my teeth without an anaesthetic, if the only alternative were to let him use nitrous oxide. --MJ}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:15:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21752; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:11:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:11:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000216132240.007ae640 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20000216182034531.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:42:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: price of Pd Resent-Message-ID: <"MJqSI3.0.gJ5.vHmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Michael T Huffman wrote: > >>The price of oil is determined by production rates, which are adjustable at >>will by the owners of the oil companies. The same holds true for any >>commodity that is owned by a cartel. > >I know that the oil companies and OPEC *think* they are a cartel, and they >sometimes function as one, but they are not good at it. They do not have >much control over their members. For example, OPEC members once signed a >formal agreement under which authorized investigators would go to well >sites and refineries, look through production records, and make sure the >countries were sticking to their production quotas. The agreement was a >dead letter from the day it was signed. No major oil producing country will >let the inspectors in. ***{Under fascism, mature industries tend to be run like cartels, but the effectiveness of such cartels varies from industry to industry, and from year to year within a given industry. When prices are far above the levels that a free market would set, for example, cooperation between cartel members tends to break down, and the result is a supply glut and falling prices. But then, when prices go far below market levels, desperation on the part of producers gives rise to a newfound spirit of cooperaiton, and the level of cheating tends to decline. Such cycles do not imply that such industries are not cartelized. All they mean is that cartels are never successful in controlling all the factors that influence their well-being. (Fleas on a dog also experience ups and downs due to factors beyond their control: sometimes the dog scratches them off, and they starve to death before finding a new host; sometimes the dog goes for a swim, and they drown. It's real sad!) Bottom line: the lives of parasites are never exempt from downside fluctuations, however much they might wish it were so. That fact, however, does not alter what they are, and it does not imply that we should be willing to tolerate their depredations. --MJ}*** > >(An agreement like that would violate U.S. or European anti-trust laws, >needless to say.) > >This is described in a good book about the history and present structure of >the oil business: > >D. Yergin, "The Prize," (Touchstone, 1991) 885 pages! > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:22:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24771; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:18:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:18:23 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:18:43 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215162220.013431c4 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"J6FRu2.0.z26.FOmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That probably is because of a significant DC component. Do you measure anything on the DC setting. Offhand I would think SQRT( (DC reading)^2 + (AC RMS reading)^2 ) would equal the new RMS reading. The other obvious thing is interference. Sheilding and filtering to just the bandwidth of interest would help here. Hank On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Scott Little wrote: > At 12:58 PM 2/15/00 -0800, hank scudder made more work for me when he wrote: > > >The fluke digital meter may very well be reading the peak voltage, on one > >side of the average, then scaling to read the correct voltage for a > >sinusoidal waveform. You can check this with your signal generator. Try > >seeing the different readings on a sinewave and a square wave. Then try > >setting up a half or full wave rectified circuit, and check it with your > >scope as well as your meter. > > Hank, the Fluke 87 is a true RMS meter so it doesn't do anything crude like > that but, in the interest of science, I tested it, a Keithley 2000 (also > true RMS), and the little scope (TEK720A) on various 3.69 kilohertz waveforms: > > TEK scope > waveform w/ 10X probe Fluke 87 Keithley > square 2.636 2.689 2.685 > sine 2.659 2.684 2.686 > sawtooth 2.638 2.682 2.685 > half-wave sine 2.627* 2.683 2.683 > > The scope voltage readings came from its built-in RMS measurement feature. > It's readings are only a few percent lower than the very well correlated > Fluke and Keithley readings. > > *To get the right reading (i.e. one that agreed with the DVM's) from the > scope with the half-wave signal, I had to AC couple the input so the > half-wave signal would be symmetrical about zero. With a DC coupling > (where the half-wave signal does not go negative), you get an RMS of about > 3.86 volts because, in fact, the RMS value of that waveform IS higher. > > > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:29:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27478; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:25:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:25:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216152502.00799de0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:25:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000215162220.013431c4 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xMU-7.0.Cj6.nUmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hank scudder wrote: >That probably is because of a significant DC component. Do you measure >anything on the DC setting. Offhand I would think > SQRT( (DC reading)^2 + (AC RMS reading)^2 ) would equal the new RMS >reading. I presume this problem would be the same with an old fashioned analog meter. > The other obvious thing is interference. Sheilding and filtering >to just the bandwidth of interest would help here. And this might go away with an analog meter. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:31:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31237; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:29:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:29:37 -0800 Message-ID: <20000216202218.85571.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.156.231.185] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Sonic Fusion (a concept for revue) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:22:18 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"k6A5s2.0.ud7.mYmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consider this if you will A sound wave has a magnitude equal to k/R^2 k being some constant and R being the distance from the origin. If a point source is achieved, then R is the distance to the center of the spherical wavefront. If a spherical compression wave can be created from the outside traveling towards the center, then the inverse square law will still apply, with R being the distance to the center of the spherical wavefront thus created. Therefore, at the center where R is almost zero, the pressure should achieve a magnitude capable of creating fusion. By the ideal gas laws the pressure would create both the necessary molecular density and the requisite temperature for this process. It is my proposal that a device could be constructed to create this spherical compression wave in a harmonic context allowing the buildup of incredible power in the sonic wavefront. The device I invision would use small segments of the spherical inner surface of the apparatus as vibrating sources. Each source must vibrate uniformly and in time with all other sources. Each source would butt against the surrounding sources when at maximum interior displacement, this would provide an almost unbroken sphere for the harmonic requirement and minimize interference between the sources. The fuel for such a device would be provided in a uniform gasseous state and fill the entire reactor vessel. I have neither the time nor resources to produce an experimental model, so I am leaving this concept in the public domain in the hope that someone will become intrigued and attempt what seems impossible. I also hope to get some critique that will allow me to correct the gaps in my knowledge of fusion. An Amateur Physicist Adam T. Cox merlyn_x hotmail.com Note: This is not CF, but is more closely related to ICF. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:47:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04082; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:43:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:43:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216144357.0134713c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:43:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Naudin's Page was Re: Mizuno300 - Run5 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000216104554.01343360 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215155029.013431c4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000215123038.01335ae8 mail.eden.com> <99.f15e14.25cfdbbc aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"69UQA3.0.Z_.3mmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:09 PM 2/16/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Since you guys are tapping the secondary directly on that side, don't >you think you should cut that connection and see what effect it would have? The connection is inside the sealed body of the spark coil. >This whole set-up looks squirrelly to me.... The meters think so, too!..... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:54:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18911; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:49:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:49:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:49:50 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000215162220.013431c4 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mHo6N.0.Pd4.Drmgu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott After re-reading your web page, I am reasonably sure that you have an awful lot of stray electric fields running all over the place, and am suffering from a lot of capacitively coupled interference. Jean-Louis is probably also. The best next step would be to rebuild everything, with coax, electrostatic sheilding, and paying a lot of attention to ground potentials. You are getting into a very tricky measurement area. I am sure I am not telling you anything new here. The spark coil high voltage is really putting out the interference. I bet if you put a small transistor radio near the setup, you will here all sorts of stuff, which could also be affecting your meters and scope. Hank On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Scott Little wrote: > At 12:58 PM 2/15/00 -0800, hank scudder made more work for me when he wrote: > > >The fluke digital meter may very well be reading the peak voltage, on one > >side of the average, then scaling to read the correct voltage for a > >sinusoidal waveform. You can check this with your signal generator. Try > >seeing the different readings on a sinewave and a square wave. Then try > >setting up a half or full wave rectified circuit, and check it with your > >scope as well as your meter. > > Hank, the Fluke 87 is a true RMS meter so it doesn't do anything crude like > that but, in the interest of science, I tested it, a Keithley 2000 (also > true RMS), and the little scope (TEK720A) on various 3.69 kilohertz waveforms: > > TEK scope > waveform w/ 10X probe Fluke 87 Keithley > square 2.636 2.689 2.685 > sine 2.659 2.684 2.686 > sawtooth 2.638 2.682 2.685 > half-wave sine 2.627* 2.683 2.683 > > The scope voltage readings came from its built-in RMS measurement feature. > It's readings are only a few percent lower than the very well correlated > Fluke and Keithley readings. > > *To get the right reading (i.e. one that agreed with the DVM's) from the > scope with the half-wave signal, I had to AC couple the input so the > half-wave signal would be symmetrical about zero. With a DC coupling > (where the half-wave signal does not go negative), you get an RMS of about > 3.86 volts because, in fact, the RMS value of that waveform IS higher. > > > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:55:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08105; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:51:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:51:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:51:59 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216001806.00727ac0 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"J_xm1.0.P-1.6tmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott The 5kv electrons don't travel any distance, but the electric fields do. Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:00:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13202; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:58:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:58:17 -0800 Message-ID: <38AB102D.402953CC bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:01:33 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: price of Pd References: <3.0.6.32.20000216123403.007af400 pop.mindspring.com> <03c801bf78ad$bf790d00$a701aec7@craig> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TpsWM3.0.5E3.dzmgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: > > > The price of oil is also at a 10-year high. I think this is caused by > > increased demand, not by a drop in supply or by politics. > > Actually I think it's because the money supply has gone through the roof > this past year. Rising commodity prises are the first sign of inflation. > Commodities are the building blocks of all other products. The increased > production costs from companies using these commodities will be passed up > the line, ultimately to the consumer. > > 1) Companies have more money to spend because their stock prices are high > and their earnings are up. > > 2) Consumers have more money to spend because of higher leverage, asset > inflation, stock option plans, and rising portfolio values. > > 3) Companies expand production to meet an increase in demand. > > 4) Increased production bids up the cost of the raw material. > > 5) Higher raw material costs force production prices higher. > > 6) Higher production prices force higher retail prices. > > 7) Higher retail prices force higher wages. > > We're now at step 4. The next step is 5, and we should start to see an > increase in the Production Price Index soon. AND, the Fed raises interest rates which is presently having a major impact on my family income. As a home loan underwriter, my wife is paid by the number of loans she closes. Buy a new home with all that extra cash!! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:05:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16482; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:04:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:04:04 -0800 Message-ID: <006501bf78c2$59244140$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Second look Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:11:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"jdu-P.0.S14.33ngu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > The bottom line is this: I don't think I'll ever trust an AC voltage > measurement made in the vicinity of AC high voltage again! - I think that it is incorrect to conclude that it is the AC high voltage that is causing the meter errors. It is more likely caused by the extremely high frequencies generated by the plasma discharges in air. See if the meter readings make more sense at voltages below the point where the discharge starts. > My scope is producing readings that I believe...but only because they look > normal...i.e. support Conservation of Energy. On the other hand, JLN's > scope readings show massive over-unity...and he's using essentially the > same scope that I am! - JLN's latest scope readings titled: GDP tests - Feb 14th, 2000 ( Asymmetrical current with scope ) performed on the low capacitance rigid foam base do not in fact show massive over-unity. The phase angle now appears to be close to 90 degrees, reducing the measured overunity to less than 16 watts with 56 watts input. If this vast reduction is caused by the reduced parasitic capacitances with the new construction, this could mean that the remaining OU is in fact a measurement artifact caused by the remaining parasitic capacitance.The overheating of a series 1/4 W resistor in JLN's circuit would show that the current is real and in phase with the voltage across the resistor, but will say nothing about the possibly reactive nature of the overall power reading. The current in a resonant circuit is real, but the power is circulating power and not available continuous output power. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:11:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17786; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:06:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:06:54 -0800 Message-ID: <00bb01bf78c1$991e8a40$e8637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000216114557.007ad980@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:05:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"pjifj2.0.qL4.j5ngu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 11:45 AM Subject: Re: GDP and EMI problems > Scott Little wrote: > > >If the current is really ~100 mA, as your measurements indicate, the power > >dissipated in the 100 ohm resistor will be 1 watt and the 1/4 watt resistor > >will smoke. > > An excellent idea! The classic smoke test. Perhaps a fuse would be more > conventional? > > - Jed Those are called fusistors. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:15:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20537; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:12:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:12:28 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:13:05 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216095932.01208c78 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"rwPKH2.0.f05.wAngu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Jean-Louis I think you might rebuild your circuits, and do a simple test, such as measuring the voltage across both halves of a voltage divider. You absolutely need to sheild everything from the electric fields. Look at how much sheilding is done in your automobiles, between the spark coil setup, and the AM-radio. The AM-radio measures microvolts from the antenna. I have built circuits measuring pico-coulumbs, femtoamps in an ion chamber in an X-ray intensive environment. We had to double sheild everything, creating a single common ground point at the power supply, and making star type wireing (no loops) everywhere. Then outside of all the sheilded wiring, we ran a second ground potential sheild over everything, and connected it to the inner ground at just the one common ground "home" point. It is an awful lot of work to make measurements at relatively high voltages and fields. Sloppy, clip lead hookups just don't make it! Hank On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Scott Little wrote: > At 04:16 PM 2/16/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >It seems to me that radio interference should be detected further away than > >5 cm. Furthermore small metal shields shouldn't make much difference. > >However low power electrons ejected from the plasma would be stopped readily > >by 7 cm of air, or small metal plates. > > I found some range data for low energy betas in "Electron and Nuclear > Physics" by Hoag. 5 keV electrons have a range of only 1 mm in air. 10 > keV electrons (which the panel could possibly be producing via an > incidental voltage-doubling process involving the capacitance of the wire's > insulation) will go about 2 mm. > > I didn't dare place the G-M counter any closer than about 5 cm (way out of > the range of any possible electron emissions). I don't think it would > survive a direct high-voltage arc to the counter body. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:35:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27118; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:28:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:28:53 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:29:34 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: price of Pd In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000216141124.007b1cf0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-qWU1.0.ed6.KQngu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed QED stands for Quantum Electro Dynamics. See a nice little but by Richard Feynman by that title. Cheap, and very easy to read, and gives a nice feeling for Quantum effects. Hank On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Craig Haynie wrote: > > >Actually I think it's because the money supply has gone through the roof > >this past year. Rising commodity prises are the first sign of inflation. > >Commodities are the building blocks of all other products. . . . > > Could be! And terms like "commodity prices" are the first sign that the > discussion has gone over my head. Sort of like "QED plasma oscillations of > PdH(D)x lattice," which is in this abstract I am translating. God only > knows what that means. I am pretty sure that's the term though. > > The only thing I thought I understood about economics is that when you buy > a book for $5, and you sell it for $4, you lose money and eventually you go > out of business. It's what the Japanese call "a bicycle business:" stop > cranking and you fall over. It turns out the law has been repealed in the > New Era of the 21st Century Economy, and Jeff Bezos of Amazon.com was Time > Magazine Man of the Year for proving it. I wonder though . . . if he ever > stops, what will prevent his customers (including me) from typing > "BN.COM"?!? I don't get it. I don't know that I wanna get it. If I do get > it, will calamine lotion make it go away? > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:43:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32504; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:39:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:39:22 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:44:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: hamdi ucar Subject: Syuh Re: Bubble Formulae In-Reply-To: <013d01bf0b5f$50c43da0$c5441d26 fjsparber> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EX8kj1.0.ox7.Aangu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear H., Do you have a Publisher? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:45:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22919; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:43:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:43:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000216164301.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:43:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: price of Pd In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000216141124.007b1cf0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8GyUc2.0.yb5.2engu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hank scudder wrote: > QED stands for Quantum Electro Dynamics. See a nice little but by >Richard Feynman by that title. Right, I know that, but I am afraid the term means nothing to me, and I am pretty sure anything by Feynman is over my head, except his investigation of the Challenger explosion, which was a model of clarity and good engineering. Fortunately, a translator does not always have to understand the deeper meaning of the text to get it right. (And the authors will check -- Japanese scientists know English well enough.) I think machine translation projects have shown that you must have *some* grasp of the meaning. As far as I know, only weather reports and sports news items have been translated successfully by computer, which tells you something about sports columnists. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:48:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02267; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:44:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:44:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216154504.0134c1c8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:45:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Second look In-Reply-To: <006501bf78c2$59244140$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xo1qz2.0.7Z.Mfngu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:11 PM 2/16/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >I think that it is incorrect to conclude that it is the >AC high voltage that is causing the meter errors. It is more >likely caused by the extremely high frequencies generated >by the plasma discharges in air. See if the meter readings make more >sense at voltages below the point where the discharge starts. I already know they do. I've used these meters lots on low voltage AC measurements over a wide range of frequencies range and they generally work very well. There IS a lot of very high frequency "hash" on the voltage across the current-viewing resistor in the present circuit that definitely corresponds to the plasma discharge. >JLN's latest scope readings titled: >GDP tests - Feb 14th, 2000 ( Asymmetrical current with scope ) >performed on the low capacitance rigid foam base do not >in fact show massive over-unity. The phase angle now appears >to be close to 90 degrees, reducing the measured overunity to >less than 16 watts with 56 watts input. How'd you get <16 watts? Look, his current shows a high of 28 mA now, which is an RMS of about 20 mA....very similar to my scope current measurements...and very DIFFERENT from his DVM current measurements which indicate up around 85-95 mA. I also noticed that, on his computer power trace, he asked the scope for the RMS power!...a quantity that I think is nearly meaningless in this situation. I've always assumed you want the average power...and that does look very low, just judging from the nearly symmetric power trace. >The overheating of a series 1/4 W resistor in JLN's >circuit would show that the current is real and in phase with the >voltage across the resistor, but will say nothing about the >possibly reactive nature of the overall power reading. True. Good point. However, I still expect the resistor NOT to get hot when he inserts it because I think the current really is around 20 mA RMS. Hank, thanks for the suggestions. You're right...we're asking for trouble with everything sprawling all over the place and totally unshielded. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 14:51:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31379; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:48:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:48:03 -0800 Message-ID: <009501bf78d0$ca386f10$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000216154504.0134c1c8@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Second look Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:54:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"xdT6t.0.Cg7.Yaogu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > How'd you get <16 watts? Next to the calculated waveform screen I see a reading called M RMS 71.61 watts. Below this in the schematic section is Input Power = 56 Watts. Perhaps I am misreading this as I am unfamiliar with this scope, but the numbers seem to fit with the waveform. > > Look, his current shows a high of 28 mA now, which is an RMS of about 20 > mA....very similar to my scope current measurements...and very DIFFERENT > from his DVM current measurements which indicate up around 85-95 mA. - Right! The earlier current must have been mostly reactive through stray capacitance. > > I also noticed that, on his computer power trace, he asked the scope for > the RMS power!...a quantity that I think is nearly meaningless in this > situation. I've always assumed you want the average power...and that does > look very low, just judging from the nearly symmetric power trace. I think the scope is actually giving the average power when set up to read RMS power in this case. > > However, I still expect the resistor NOT to get hot > when he inserts it because I think the current really is around 20 mA RMS. I agree, but with the old circuit it may have overheated. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 14:53:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32211; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:49:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:49:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Second look Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:48:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <53amassla3hg8f7lh2ptpdhb7h7o2s3hrb 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> <006501bf78c2$59244140$0c6cd626@varisys.com> In-Reply-To: <006501bf78c2$59244140$0c6cd626 varisys.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA32170 Resent-Message-ID: <"3M0nr3.0.7t7.tbogu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:11:08 -0500, George Holz wrote: [snip] >I think that it is incorrect to conclude that it is the >AC high voltage that is causing the meter errors. It is more >likely caused by the extremely high frequencies generated >by the plasma discharges in air. See if the meter readings make more >sense at voltages below the point where the discharge starts. [snip] There is also the consideration that the circuits are being operated near resonance, and hence stray capacitances (or changes therein) will shift the resonance point slightly - but more importantly - the amplitude of the resonance can change dramatically. Attaching devices at different points in the circuit, or "the laying on of hands", will alter the stray capacitance in the circuit. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 15:18:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09241; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:13:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:13:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000216171417.0133b978 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:14:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Second look In-Reply-To: <009501bf78d0$ca386f10$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000216154504.0134c1c8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dcF-Z.0.HG2.syogu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:54 PM 2/16/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >Scott wrote: >> How'd you get <16 watts? >Next to the calculated waveform screen I see a reading >called M RMS 71.61 watts. Below this in the schematic >section is Input Power = 56 Watts. Perhaps I am >misreading this as I am unfamiliar with this scope, >but the numbers seem to fit with the waveform. I just conducted a test using my scope to monitor the power delivered to an ordinary capacitor. I used 3 kHz and about 10 volts RMS so there wouldn't be any funny business going on. I used a 10 ohm current viewing resistor to sense the current. It was a textbook picture on the scope. The current led the voltage by 90 degrees. The x-y trace showed a perfect circle. Under these conditions, the computer power trace (voltage x current) looks like a symmetrical sine wave, which means that power is "circulating" or sloshing back and forth from the capacitor to the supply. The scope's Mean measurement on this trace produced essentially zero (as you would expect). However, the scope's RMS measurement on this trace produced a large positive value! In other words, the RMS software routine is faithfully computing the RMS value of whatever trace it is given. There's probably some mathematical significance to the RMS of the power trace but it obviously has no relationship to the power delivered to the load. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 19:08:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22561; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:04:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:04:20 -0800 Message-ID: <016101bf78f3$9e9c6960$47b47ed8 mrand> From: "mrand access" To: Subject: Re: GPD: a cursory examination Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:03:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Aa2sd1.0.RW5.qKsgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, Thanks for the info. I'll check Pep Boys tomorrow on this coil and to see if they have any 3 ohm primary resistance coils. The ones I've seen on the internet were for motorcycles and off-road performance cars. Have you tried wiring the the primary coil connections as shown in Jean-Louis' circuit and not "backwards"? What were the results? Regards, Michael >It's made by Accel Performance Products. It's called the Accel Performance >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 19:32:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30874; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:29:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:29:26 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38AB795F.72C476F8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 04:30:23 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Second look References: <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> <006501bf78c2$59244140$0c6cd626@varisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"4Tb8t2.0.JY7.Lisgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: The bottom line is this: I don't think I'll ever trust an AC voltage measurement made in the vicinity of AC high voltage again! George Holz wrote: I think that it is incorrect to conclude that it is the AC high voltage that is causing the meter errors. It is more likely CAUSED BY THE EXTREMELY HIGH FREQUENCIES GENERATED BY THE PLASMA DISCHARGES IN AIR. See if the meter readings make more sense at voltages below the point where the discharge starts. Scott Little wrote: I already know they do. I've used these meters lots on low voltage AC measurements over a wide range of frequencies range and they generally work very well. There IS a lot of very high frequency "hash" on the voltage across the current-viewing resistor in the present circuit that DEFINITELY CORRESPONDS TO THE PLASMA DISCHARGE. Scott Little wrote: Hank, thanks for the suggestions. You're right...we're asking for trouble with everything sprawling all over the place and totally unshielded. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: There is also the consideration that the circuits are being operated near resonance, and hence stray capacitances (or changes therein) will shift the resonance point slightly - but more importantly - the amplitude of the resonance can change dramatically. Attaching devices at different points in the circuit, or "the laying on of hands", will alter the stray capacitance in the circuit. Hi All, Are we back to "spikes" again? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 19:44:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03491; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:42:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:42:18 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38AB7C65.4021C3F5 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 04:43:17 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Forever Amber & Light Leptons References: <008301bf78a2$a503fbc0$02441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yIw5L.0.Ps.Qusgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Jack, > > You can read this, or Pith on it. > > http://www.eonline.com/Facts/Movies/0%2C60%2C34690%2C00.html > > Regards, Frederick > "Forever Amber" -- I like that. But where do the LL's come in? The stardard line is that its all "elektron". Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 20:03:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09220; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:01:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:01:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:01:08 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <010701bf7808$6934c240$e68e1d26 fjsparber> <38AAB11E.5A8EBA4D@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <004801bf789d$d79184e0$02441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <004801bf789d$d79184e0$02441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA09188 Resent-Message-ID: <"ghsze1.0.-F2.gAtgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:49:08 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >THE POINT: > >ALL STATIC ELECTRICITY INVOLVES HYDROGENOUS MATERIALS AND FRICTION. [snip] What do hydrogenous materials have to do with LLs? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 23:56:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA12891; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:53:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:53:56 -0800 Message-ID: <001201bf78fb$b5c9f820$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Light Lepton Quest Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:00:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"DtEj_.0.G93.Cawgu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I guess it's time to Pay the Piper. If the positive charge left on glass rubbed with silk turns out to be LL + charges and can be brought off in a hard vacuum it should be easy to detect them with a mass spectrometer type of experiment,where they can hit a phosphor and be seen by the scintillations they should cause. With a 0.2 ev rest mass (~ 3.6E-37 kg) at 20 kev accelerating potential and 0.5 gauss (the Earths B field) they should sweep about a 10.0 inch radius. R = Mrel*c/q*B. Mrel = Mo[(2E4/3.2E-20)+1] ~ 7.1E-33 kg. OTOH, perhaps running a silk or rubber belt against glass under water will create LL pairs, and allow reaction with H+ or D+ and formation of Quasineutrons-Quasidineutrons and give some CF/OU effects. The patented experiment on nuclear remediation using a hole in the globe of a Van de Graaff generator would be vindicated if there were LLs and atmospheric water molecules involved. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 02:06:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA00852; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 02:05:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 02:05:31 -0800 Message-ID: <003801bf7908$5c4fdbe0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <008301bf78a2$a503fbc0$02441d26 fjsparber> <38AB7C65.4021C3F5@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Subject: Re: Forever Amber & Light Leptons Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:32:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"OwqW31.0.7D.gVygu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Taylor J. Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:43 PM Subject: Re: Forever Amber & Light Leptons Jack Smith wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Jack, > > > > You can read this, or Pith on it. > > > > http://www.eonline.com/Facts/Movies/0%2C60%2C34690%2C00.html > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > "Forever Amber" -- I like that. > But where do the LL's come in? The stardard line > is that its all "elektron". Check out all of the rubbing/friction experiments for "electrostatics" starting with amber and jet, and see what rubbing hydrogenous materials against a suface reveals. That includes water and cavition/pitting of ship props, and sonofusion, too. Regards, Frederick > > Jack Smith > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 02:06:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA00827; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 02:05:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 02:05:30 -0800 Message-ID: <003201bf7907$b0ee4340$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <010701bf7808$6934c240$e68e1d26 fjsparber> <38AAB11E.5A8EBA4D@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <004801bf789d$d79184e0$02441d26@fjsparber> Subject: Re: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:27:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"t0zlS3.0.iC.fVygu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:01 PM Subject: Re: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment Robin wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:49:08 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >THE POINT: > > > >ALL STATIC ELECTRICITY INVOLVES HYDROGENOUS MATERIALS AND FRICTION. > [snip] > What do hydrogenous materials have to do with LLs? Favorable resonance energies for LL production due to rubbing or friction, Robin. Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 06:26:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15069; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:25:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:25:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000217082538.00e0f12c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:25:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Moon gravity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xV5aF2.0.Nh3.RJ0hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There is perhaps no more powerful stimulant for thought than experimental results which directly contradict our expectations. Over the past few days, I have been carefully weighing a block of aluminum (that weighs about 138.4875 grams) on our Mettler analytical balance looking for the influence of the Moon's gravitational attraction. I calculated that the Moon's gravitational attraction, when it was directly overhead, would exert a .0005 gm force on this Al block upwards and, similarly when directly below, a .0005 gm force downwards. The readability of this balance is .0001 gm so, with careful zeroing at every weighing, I should have been able to observe this diurnal variation. I even drove back up to the lab last night at ~11:00 PM to obtain an observation with the Moon nearly at zenith. The results are unambiguous: With +/-0.0001 gm repeatability, I can detect no variation in the block's weight! The reason hit me like a ton of bricks. Anybody? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 06:35:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20493; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:34:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:34:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216171417.0133b978 mail.eden.com> References: <009501bf78d0$ca386f10$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <3.0.1.32.20000216133817.013424a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000216154504.0134c1c8 mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:33:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Second look Resent-Message-ID: <"4WnGU2.0.-_4.zR0hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 05:54 PM 2/16/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >>Scott wrote: >>> How'd you get <16 watts? >>Next to the calculated waveform screen I see a reading >>called M RMS 71.61 watts. Below this in the schematic >>section is Input Power = 56 Watts. Perhaps I am >>misreading this as I am unfamiliar with this scope, >>but the numbers seem to fit with the waveform. > >I just conducted a test using my scope to monitor the power delivered to an >ordinary capacitor. ***{An *ungrounded* capacitor, presumably. :-) --MJ}*** I used 3 kHz and about 10 volts RMS so there wouldn't >be any funny business going on. I used a 10 ohm current viewing resistor >to sense the current. It was a textbook picture on the scope. The current >led the voltage by 90 degrees. The x-y trace showed a perfect circle. > >Under these conditions, the computer power trace (voltage x current) looks >like a symmetrical sine wave, which means that power is "circulating" or >sloshing back and forth from the capacitor to the supply. The scope's Mean >measurement on this trace produced essentially zero (as you would expect). >However, the scope's RMS measurement on this trace produced a large >positive value! In other words, the RMS software routine is faithfully >computing the RMS value of whatever trace it is given. ***{I assume this means that when you ask your scope for an rms calculation, it responds by taking each trace pixel's distance from zero, squaring it, summing them together, dividing by the number of pixels on the trace, and then taking the square root of the result. If so, then those trace pixels that are below the zero and have negative distances will, when squared, lose their negative signs, and will thus add to the total rather than subtract from it. Result: an overly large power measurement, in cases where the current and voltage are out of phase. In your previous message, you said: "I also noticed that, on [Jean-Louis'] computer power trace, he asked the scope for the RMS power!...a quantity that I think is nearly meaningless in this situation. I've always assumed you want the average power...and that does look very low, just judging from the nearly symmetric power trace." It would seem, therefore, that you have explained away the last vestiges of Jean-Louis' "over unity" result. His error, apparently, was a failure to realize that, for a power curve produced by multiplying instantaneous current times instantaneous voltage, a simple average of the values would give the proper value for heat dissipation over the interval, and an rms average would be wrong. (Don Lancaster, I suspect, would label this EE student lab blunder #01-B. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >There's probably some mathematical significance to the RMS of the power >trace but it obviously has no relationship to the power delivered to the load. ***{In terms of power delivered to, and retained by, the load--i.e., in terms of heat dissipation--this is absolutely correct. Here is a question about your scope: when you tell it to do an rms calculation, am I correct in assuming that it only uses the data that are actually displayed on the scope at the time? And, if this is true, what is the size of the pixel array on the scope? (I am curious about this because, if the pixel coordinates are, in fact, used in the averaging process, it would enable us to determine how many samples per cycle apply to a given calculation. That would, in many cases, be very useful information.) --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 06:41:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23280; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:40:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:40:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000217094009.007a36f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:40:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Moon gravity In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000217082538.00e0f12c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"baP9C.0.gh5.NX0hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >I even drove back up to the lab last night at ~11:00 PM to obtain an >observation with the Moon nearly at zenith. The results are unambiguous: >With +/-0.0001 gm repeatability, I can detect no variation in the block's >weight! > >The reason hit me like a ton of bricks. Anybody? Because you are standing there, I think. You outpull the moon. There is an interesting article in a recent issue of Sci Am about a gravity detector with incredible sensitivity. I think it was in the Amateur Scientist column. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 06:48:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27763; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:47:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:47:20 -0800 Message-ID: <38AC08F2.8A1CAD28 winternet.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:42:58 -0600 From: Bob Fickle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moon gravity References: <3.0.6.32.20000217094009.007a36f0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2D4wj.0.in6.td0hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Your balance is probably just that: it compares the gravitational force on the mass you're measuring against that on an internal test mass. Thus gravitational variations cancel out- also allowing consistent mass determinations when using the balance at different geographic locations. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Scott Little wrote: > > >I even drove back up to the lab last night at ~11:00 PM to obtain an > >observation with the Moon nearly at zenith. The results are unambiguous: > >With +/-0.0001 gm repeatability, I can detect no variation in the block's > >weight! > > > >The reason hit me like a ton of bricks. Anybody? > > Because you are standing there, I think. You outpull the moon. > > There is an interesting article in a recent issue of Sci Am about a gravity > detector with incredible sensitivity. I think it was in the Amateur > Scientist column. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 06:53:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30201; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:51:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:51:59 -0800 Message-ID: <005401bf794a$9085eca0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Positrinos-Negatrinos and Static Electricity Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 05:25:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"-1Hk-2.0.pN7.Fi0hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex A 0.2 ev Positrino or Negatrino (Light Lepton) should have a radius of ~ 72 Angstroms and a charge the same as that of a Positron or Electron (1.602E-19 Coulombs). These should attach to various materials and exhibit the behavior seen in "Static Electricity" experiments. Historically, Amber (a hard resin) and Jet (a a highly oxygenated lignite form of coal) when rubbed by silk or wool allowed buildup of negative charge on one of the items and left a residual positive charge on the other. Materials used in Static Electricity experiments and acquired charge: Material Acquired Charge Hard Rubber negative Silk negative Fur positive Wool positive Amber positive Jet positive Glass positive Lucite positive Polyethylene Negative When you look at the chemical structure of these materials, it becomes apparent that those materials that contain surface oxygen and or nitrogen with an affinity for positive charge with unsatisfied charge on the surface (such as glass, SiO2), it is apparent that these attract positive charge, as opposed to those materials that have Hydrogen at the surface with an affinity for negative charge. Some of the materials are "Ambivalent" in that they can attract both charge signs, but, with more retention tenacity for one charge over the other. As to a source of these Leptons, the most obvious is Solar Infrared, Heat, and Frictional Effects, Etc. Their role in CF/OU effects has been proposed in previous posts to Vortex. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 07:13:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07912; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:10:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:10:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000217091017.0133f320 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:10:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Moon gravity In-Reply-To: <38AC08F2.8A1CAD28 winternet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000217094009.007a36f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_xzfA.0.Vx1.9z0hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:42 AM 2/17/00 -0600, Bob Fickle wrote: >Your balance is probably just that: Wow! That one DIDN'T hit me!...but it is obviously correct. How interesting: a "balance" actually measures the ratio of the unknown object's mass to the test masses inside. The same result would be obtained in any uniform gravitational field. However, I am certain that the same result would have been obtained on a sensitive spring scale where the true weight (i.e. force exerted by gravity) is measured. I believe that is how modern analytical balances operate...they don't have a bunch of internal weights and a mechanically complex mechanism to place them on the beam as you turn the knobs (like my old Mettler). The reason I came up with would apply to a spring scale with 0.0001 g readability as well. Let's see if anybody else can come up with it...it's pretty obvious, once you see it. >Jed Rothwell wrote: >> Because you are standing there, I think. You outpull the moon. I calculated this. My pull, at a distance of 2 feet, is about 2000 times less than the Moon's at 230,000 miles! >> There is an interesting article in a recent issue of Sci Am about a gravity >> detector with incredible sensitivity. I think it was in the Amateur >> Scientist column. That's what got me onto this. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 07:21:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11929; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:20:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:20:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000217082538.00e0f12c mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:17:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Moon gravity Resent-Message-ID: <"vYJVq.0.Jw2.X61hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >There is perhaps no more powerful stimulant for thought than experimental >results which directly contradict our expectations. > >Over the past few days, I have been carefully weighing a block of aluminum >(that weighs about 138.4875 grams) on our Mettler analytical balance >looking for the influence of the Moon's gravitational attraction. I >calculated that the Moon's gravitational attraction, when it was directly >overhead, would exert a .0005 gm force on this Al block upwards and, >similarly when directly below, a .0005 gm force downwards. The readability >of this balance is .0001 gm so, with careful zeroing at every weighing, I >should have been able to observe this diurnal variation. > >I even drove back up to the lab last night at ~11:00 PM to obtain an >observation with the Moon nearly at zenith. The results are unambiguous: >With +/-0.0001 gm repeatability, I can detect no variation in the block's >weight! ***{The sun should exert about 5/11th as much force as the moon, and, at 11 p.m., it would be in the opposite direction. Thus, accepting your .0005 gm calculation, it would exert a force of (5/11)(.0005) = .00023 gm downward. The resultant upward force, therefore, would be .00027 gm, and still ought to be detectible by your instrument. --MJ}*** > >The reason hit me like a ton of bricks. Anybody? ***{The Earth and the Moon are a gravitationally bound system. That means the pull of the Moon on the Earth is a centripetal force, and is opposed by an equal centrifugal force in the opposite direction. In other words, the presence of the Moon has a negligible net effect on the weight of anything on Earth. It would only be if the Earth and the Moon had their same distances from one another and were pinned in those positions on some sort of giant table top that the attractive force of each on the other would not be opposed by an equal and opposite centrifugal force, and it is only in that type of case that the readings on your balance would significantly depend on whether it was between the Earth and the Moon, or on the opposite side of the Earth from the Moon. --MJ}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 07:29:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15419; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:28:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:28:18 -0800 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:27:28 -0500 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:01:11 -0500 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:10:41 -0500 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Moon gravity In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000217094009.007a36f0 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:27:00 -0500 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2448ZYIIEXO7Q X400-MTS-identifier: [;82720171200002/4484632 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"7SZM01.0.qm3.HE1hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, >I even drove back up to the lab last night at ~11:00 PM to obtain an >observation with the Moon nearly at zenith. The results are unambiguous: >With +/-0.0001 gm repeatability, I can detect no variation in the block's >weight! > >The reason hit me like a ton of bricks. Anybody? Yep, cuz da ton-o-bricks you be balancing it wit gits lighter too! ;^) I would think the same would apply to a spring scale or a piezio electric scale as the scale is being pulled up at the same time as the weight. How about a very large rubber ball filled with a fluid, then carefully measure the amount of deformation measured either side to side or it's height. You would need to establish how much deformation corresponds to how much weight lose, by perhaps adding or subtracting different amounts of fluid, charting it to generate a formula. Any other ideas? Bill webriggs concentric.net briggs XLNsystems.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 07:32:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16698; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:30:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:30:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000217103031.007af950 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:30:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Moon gravity In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000217091017.0133f320 mail.eden.com> References: <38AC08F2.8A1CAD28 winternet.com> <3.0.6.32.20000217094009.007a36f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HPicv.0.q44.dG1hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >I calculated this. My pull, at a distance of 2 feet, is about 2000 times >less than the Moon's at 230,000 miles! Ah, so -- as the Japanese say. So much for my seat-of-the pants guess. So, if the answer hit you like a ton of bricks, roll the kettle drum, pull out the envelope, and tell us Which of These Lucky Women the Millionaire Chooses to Marry. Oops! Wrong envelope. I meant tell us why your gadget does not detect the moon. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 08:49:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14619; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:46:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:46:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000217104645.013486a4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:46:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Moon gravity In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000217082538.00e0f12c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wxVwu3.0.Ga3.iN2hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:17 AM 2/17/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The Earth and the Moon are a gravitationally bound system. That means >the pull of the Moon on the Earth is a centripetal force, and is opposed by >an equal centrifugal force in the opposite direction. Congratulations, Mitchell! In other words, the Earth is in free-fall around the Moon, just as the Moon is in free-fall around the Earth. To first order, that eliminates the attraction I was expecting. Think of the astronauts orbiting in the Shuttle: They don't feel the Earth's gravity, yet at their 150 miles altitude, it's still about 93% of the strength at the surface. However, there is a residual effect caused by the fact that the Moon's gravitational field is not uniform (it varies as 1/r^2). This causes objects on the near side to be attracted slightly stronger than the Earth itself...and objects on the far side to be attracted similarly weaker than the Earth itself. Hence, tides! With a sufficiently sensitive SPRING scale, one should be able to observe the change in mass of an object due to these effects but it will be about 30 times smaller than the direct effect I was naively expecting to see. This puts the effect well below the sensitivity of my Mettler balance. >***{The sun should exert about 5/11th as much force as the moon.... Actually, the sun's gravitational field, here at the Earth, is 166 times stronger than the Moon's gravitational field here at the Earth. However, because the earth-sun distance is so much larger than the earth-moon distance the gradient in the sun's field, which is what produces tides, is about 5/11 of the gradient in the moon's field. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 10:09:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04499; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:04:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:04:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000217104645.013486a4 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000217082538.00e0f12c mail.eden.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:46:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Moon gravity Resent-Message-ID: <"T_VN62.0.D61.jW3hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 09:17 AM 2/17/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{The Earth and the Moon are a gravitationally bound system. That means >>the pull of the Moon on the Earth is a centripetal force, and is opposed by >>an equal centrifugal force in the opposite direction. > >Congratulations, Mitchell! > >In other words, the Earth is in free-fall around the Moon, just as the Moon >is in free-fall around the Earth. To first order, that eliminates the >attraction I was expecting. Think of the astronauts orbiting in the >Shuttle: They don't feel the Earth's gravity, yet at their 150 miles >altitude, it's still about 93% of the strength at the surface. > >However, there is a residual effect caused by the fact that the Moon's >gravitational field is not uniform (it varies as 1/r^2). This causes >objects on the near side to be attracted slightly stronger than the Earth >itself...and objects on the far side to be attracted similarly weaker than >the Earth itself. Hence, tides! With a sufficiently sensitive SPRING >scale, one should be able to observe the change in mass of an object due to >these effects but it will be about 30 times smaller than the direct effect >I was naively expecting to see. This puts the effect well below the >sensitivity of my Mettler balance. > >>***{The sun should exert about 5/11th as much force as the moon.... > >Actually, the sun's gravitational field, here at the Earth, is 166 times >stronger than the Moon's gravitational field here at the Earth. However, >because the earth-sun distance is so much larger than the earth-moon >distance the gradient in the sun's field, which is what produces tides, is >about 5/11 of the gradient in the moon's field. ***{Correct. The Sun-Earth distance is about 93 million miles, while the Moon-Earth distance is about 238,000 miles. Thus the Moon's pull per gram ought to be (93/.238)^2 = 152,690 times as strong. However, the mass of the Moon is 1/[27(10^6) = 3.7(10^-8) times that of the Sun. Thus the Moon's pull, in the net, is (152690)[3.7(10^-8)] = .00566 times as strong as that of the Sun, or, conversely, the Sun's pull is about 177 times as strong as that of the Moon, which is roughly what you said. However, the tide raising force of the Moon varies as the cube of the distance, rather than as the square, which gives the Moon [(93/.238)^3][3.7(10^-8)] = 2.21 times as much tide-raising force as the Sun, or, conversely, means the Sun has about 5/11th the tide-raising force of the Moon. For those who don't understand why it is the field gradient that is relevant here, the reason is that different parts of the Earth orbit the center of mass of the Earth-Moon system at different distances. Since those parts of the Earth that are closer to the center of mass of the system move faster, the near-side of the Earth tends to leave the far side behind. The result is a stretching effect which causes the distance from the point on Earth closest to the Moon to the point farthest from it to be greater than the distance from one side of the Earth to the other perpendicular to that line. Since waters of Earth's oceans are less rigid than its crust and core, they stretch more, and, as the Earth rotates, the result is the tides. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 12:01:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19250; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:59:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:59:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38AC533C.2CF9441C ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:59:56 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Mill's patent Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nOdpt2.0.ci4.UC5hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 17, 2000 Vortex, I was clued by a friend into Mill's obtaining a U.S. Patent about two days ago. The patent application dates back to March 21, 1997. I foward the Abstract to Vortex. The patent is at Mill's Blacklight web page. -ak- (Such long sentences!) Foward: United States Patent 6,024,935, Mills, et al. February 15, 2000 Lower-energy hydrogen methods and structures Abstract Methods and apparatus for releasing energy from hydrogen atoms (molecules) by stimulating their electrons to relax to quantized lower energy levels and smaller radii (smaller semimajor and semiminor axes) than the "ground state" by providing energy sinks or means to remove energy resonant with the hydrogen energy released to stimulate these transitions. An energy sink, energy hole, can be provided by the transfer of at least one electron between participating species including atoms, ions, molecules, and ionic and molecular compounds. In one embodiment, the energy hole comprises the transfer of t electrons from one or more donating species to one or more accepting species whereby the sum of the ionization energies and/or electron affinities of the electron donating species minus the sum of the ionization energies and/or electron affinities of the electron accepting species equals approximately mX27.21 eV (mX48.6 eV) for atomic (molecular) hydrogen below "ground state" transitions where m and t are integers. The present invention further comprises a hydrogen spillover catalyst, a multifunctionality material having a functionality which dissociates molecular hydrogen to provide free hydrogen atoms which spill over to a functionality which supports mobile free hydrogen atoms and a functionality which can be a source of the energy holes. The energy reactor includes one of an electrolytic cell, a pressurized hydrogen gas cell, and a hydrogen gas discharge cell. A preferred pressurized hydrogen gas energy reactor comprises a vessel; a source of hydrogen; a means to control the pressure and flow of hydrogen into the vessel; a material to dissociate the molecular hydrogen into atomic hydrogen, and a material which can be a source of energy holes in the gas phase. The gaseous source of energy holes includes those that sublime, boil, and/or are volatile at the elevated operating temperature of the gas energy reactor wherein the exothermic reaction of electronic transitions of hydrogen to lower energy states occur in the gas phase. Inventors: Mills; Randell L. (Malvern, PA); Good; William R. (Wayne, PA); Phillips; Jonathan (State College, PA); Popov; Arthur I. (Philadelphia, PA) Assignee: Blacklight Power, Inc. (Cranbury, NJ) Appl. No.: 822170 Filed: March 21, 1997 U.S. Class: 423/648.1; 422/129 Intern'l Class: C01B 003/02 Field of Search: 423/648.1 422/129 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 12:13:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29256; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:07:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:07:10 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:06:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: 1/4th Watt Resistor Test Resent-Message-ID: <"Ztb3h3.0.t87.fJ5hu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis has posted a test of a 1/4th watt resistor, as per Scott's suggestion. It only heated up by 2 deg. C, thereby proving that the measured excess power isn't real. See http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp5.htm. --MJ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 12:26:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30896; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:21:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:21:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000217152117.007a4100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:21:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Moon gravity In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000217104645.013486a4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000217082538.00e0f12c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OXXrb.0.eY7.IX5hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >Since waters of Earth's oceans are less rigid than its crust and >core, they stretch more, and, as the Earth rotates, the result is the >tides. And that slows down the rotation. According to Britannica, "Earth's daily rotation [slows] by a small fraction of a second per year. Millions of years from now hese effects may cause the Earth to keep the same face always turned to a distant Moon and to rotate once in a day about 50 times longer than the present one and equal to the month of that time. This condition probably will not be stable, due to the tidal effects of the Sun on the Earth-Moon system." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 12:45:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05248; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:43:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:43:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:41:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: 1/4th Watt Resistor Test Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA05220 Resent-Message-ID: <"EFbZ32.0.wH1.Nr5hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jean-Louis has posted a test of a 1/4th watt resistor, as per Scott's >suggestion. It only heated up by 2 deg. C, thereby proving that the >measured excess power isn't real. See >http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdp5.htm. --MJ ***{On his web page, Jean-Louis makes the following comments: A simple 100 ohm 1/4 Watt resistor has been placed in series between the coil output and the GDP Panel. Only 2° C of differential temperature has been measured during a 2 minute run. So, today, the question is : If the current measured was really about 80 mA, why doesn't a 100 ohm (1/4 watt) resistor heat up? Some possible explanations: (1) The current is a simple artifact. But, how we can explain that different measurement methods and different instruments show similar values? ***{Is that still true? I thought that, with the most recent run, the excess was mostly gone, and that the amount which remained was due to doing an rms calculation rather than a simple average on the power curve. --MJ}*** (2) The apparent power is not real. But, how we can explain that it is possible to light 6 LEDs (6x30 mA) in parallel or 2x30 Watts neon tubes in series with the GDP panel ? ***{The six LED's were in parallel, but 3 had right polarity and 3 had left. Thus only 3 were drawing current at a time. That immediately reduces the number to 3x30 = 90 mA. And, since it is a subjective judgment as to how close they were to maximal brightness, I can easily imagine that they were drawing as little as 10 mA each, for a total of 30 mA. And, again, it is a subjective judgment as to how close to maximal brightness the neon tubes were. They could have been drawing much less than 30 mA apiece. --MJ}*** (3) This is an EMI jamming effect. Does Electromagnetic Interference generate this kind of artifact? This has been checked just above, and the digital innstruments don't seem influenced significantly by EMI. ***{Scott's instruments were *very* significantly influenced, so it is reasonable to suppose that yours were as well. --MJ}*** (4) This is an induction effect by ES longitudinal waves or Scalar type waves. Is a High Frequency (6 kHz) Electrostatic Field (at 5 kV) able to produce this kind of effect by longitudinal wave or scalar wave induction? ***{These are interesting questions, but even in the absence of definitive answers to them, it seems clear that major changes to your design are needed, if you are to demonstrate that, in fact, the circuit is "over unity." --MJ}*** This latest question is not yet solved. More ES shielding tests must be conducted by placing the entire GDP apparatus in a Faraday type cage. ***{Yes. A good start. As always, your website is fascinating, well organized, and well conceived. We all make mistakes, but most lack the courage to post their ongoing creative endeavors on the net, for fear that their errors will be detected. You are to be congratulated for your willingness to do so. Keep up the good work. --MJ}*** The challenge is always open.... All constructive comments are welcome, Stay Tuned.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 13:08:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13136; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:06:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:06:33 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:11:35 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Millikan Oil Drop Experiment In-Reply-To: <004801bf789d$d79184e0$02441d26 fjsparber> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6L9zO1.0.6D3.OB6hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Electrons: In the days of the Mill. Oil Drop exp there were several ways people "added , subtracted or changed" charge to the oil drops. One of interesting ones , at least to me, was the use of ionizing radiation. In these cases an X ray tube or Short Wave Ultra Violet, or SWUV lamp were placed near the area between the charged plates. A window of quartz was often provided. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 14:10:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02787; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:06:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:06:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000217170630.007a55d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:06:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More about "Type A" palladium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"g44Jn1.0.Th.-37hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In my discussion of "Type A" palladium, I may not have made it clear that Pons and Fleischmann invented that designation for their own use. It isn't Johnson-Matthey's term. Also, I meant to include this summary of Table 10 from a Miles paper. Note the dramatic difference in success rates with J-M Pd: Source Success Ratio (excess heat / total tests) NRL Pd-B alloy 7/8 Johnson-Matthey (J-M) Pd 13/24 J-M from Fleischmann 4/4 NRL Pd (first batch) 1/2 Tanaka Pd (sheet) 1/3 NRL Pd (another batch) 0/4 NRL Pd-Ag 0/3 IMRA Japan Pd-Ag 0/2 WESTGO Pd 0/6 Pd/Cu 0/2 John Dash Pd (sheet) 0/2 Co-deposition (1992) 2/34 Total: 28/94 >From Miles et al., China Lake, NAWCWPNS TP 8302, see also M. H. Miles (Naval Air Weapons Center), B. F. Bush (SRI), D. E. Stillwell (CAES), "Calorimetric Principles and Problems in Measurements of Excess Power during Pd-D2O Electrolysis," J. Phys. Chem. 1994, 98, p. 1948-1952 Fleischmann sent me more details about the IMRA and NHE calorimetry problems, which I may include in a follow-up article in the next-next issue. He is still working on having another batch made. I asked him about the prospects for using the newer material that replaced "Type A." He says, "I must emphasize once again that I do not know whether this material is in any sense optimal - all I know is that it has given a reasonable success rate in the past. It therefore seems sensible to me to continue to base the measurements on the material and to delay once again the exploration of the materials variables until such time that someone somewhere can secure adequate funding for the investigation of this aspect of the research. As you will know, I also believe that such exploration requires the re-establishment of factorial experiments." (Meaning many cells run at the same time.) The newer material would be more readily available. Ed Storm, I think it was, wondered whether it would be cheaper as well. I think the answer is J-M is doing Fleischmann a favor and would keep the price of the old material artificially low. However, and palladium is sky high nowadays. It is more expensive than gold. I have asked Martin for permission to publish his letters verbatim on Internet. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 14:20:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04262; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:14:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:14:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:15:03 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moon gravity In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000217152117.007a4100 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WrSXo2.0.G21.IB7hu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It would be interesting to know just when this will happen, so we can plan for it. Hank On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >Since waters of Earth's oceans are less rigid than its crust and > >core, they stretch more, and, as the Earth rotates, the result is the > >tides. > > And that slows down the rotation. According to Britannica, "Earth's daily > rotation [slows] by a small fraction of a second per year. Millions of > years from now hese effects may cause the Earth to keep the same face > always turned to a distant Moon and to rotate once in a day about 50 times > longer than the present one and equal to the month of that time. This > condition probably will not be stable, due to the tidal effects of the Sun > on the Earth-Moon system." > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 20:22:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02096; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:21:02 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: JNaudin509 aol.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Test on 17/2/2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:20:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA02063 Resent-Message-ID: <"_M4OL3.0.YW.jYChu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jean-Louis, Did you happen to measure the voltage over the 100 ohm resistor while you were measuring the temp? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 20:33:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06174; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:32:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:32:13 -0800 Message-ID: <009f01bf798d$9f75a460$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Mills' US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:26:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF794A.88A4B660" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"fV7Hr3.0.JW1.DjChu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF794A.88A4B660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit US 6,024,935 http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm (95 pages long) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF794A.88A4B660 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm Modified=C0D389518D79BF0133 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF794A.88A4B660-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 22:29:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA14673; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:27:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:27:38 -0800 Message-ID: <20000218062734.11657.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:27:34 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: d + p fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"MqqT-.0.Ab3.QPEhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: >A question for Michael Schaffer or anyone else who knows something >fusion: > >What hot fusion experiments use d + p fusion? > >According to standard nuclear theory, the cross section for d + p fusion is >several orders of magnitude higher than for d + d fusion, but d + p >produces >powerful gamma radiation. Is the gamma radiation prohibitively high? No fusion experiments use d + p reaction, because its cross section is orders of magnitude lower than for d + d. The gamma radiation is nothing unusual, and it can be shielded by straightforward means, with no radioactivity left over. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 01:25:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA12442; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:24:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:24:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:24:20 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200002180924.KAA29098 front6m.grolier.fr> X-Sender: jplentin pop3.club-internet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: Mills / Brown / Graneau article Resent-Message-ID: <"FjR_12.0.G23.8_Ghu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all ! I read that on another list (Eric Krieg's skeptic "free energy" list) yesterday : "Explanation of Anomalous Combustion of Brown's Gas Using Dr. Mills' Hydrino Theory" by Hiroshi Ymamoto, Yamaha Motor Co. Ltd. SAE 1999-01-3325 / JSAE 9938080 Presented at the SAE Small Engine Technology Conference and Exposition in Madison, Wisconsin September 28-30, 1999. > In this paper, Ymamoto tries to use Randell Mills' "hydrino theory" to explain > the "anomalous combustion of Brown's gas", Graneau's "water explosions", > sonoluminescence, and "airless combustion of water emulsion fuels". There was no other details, the rest of the post babbling against the "credulity" of it all... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 07:58:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27821; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:57:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:57:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000218105647.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:56:47 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: World hunger problem website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ErF1u.0.do6.KlMhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is one of the problems cold fusion would help eradicate: http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html Quote: About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. This is down from 35,000 ten years ago, and 41,000 twenty years ago. Three-fourths of the deaths are children under the age of five. Source: The Hunger Project, United Nations This estimate is higher other authoritative sources I have read. The lowest credible estimate is around ~7,000 people per day. The total number of victims during the 20th century was far higher than the numbers killed in wars. (Roughly 1 billion compared to 100 million, I think.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 08:11:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00573; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:08:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:08:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:07:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Computer Based Power Measurements Resent-Message-ID: <"erJyK1.0.i8.evMhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since the discussion of the Ed Storms experiment, I have been more focused than ever on the need to know the details of one's input power measurements, if one is to perform any sort of bulletproof demonstration of an "over unity" effect. The use of "black box" instrumentation is inappropriate, because the difficulties associated with measuring input power under these sorts of complex and often chaotic electrical conditions are extremely large. That means claims such as those made by Mizuno, Miles, and others, where a comparison of calorimetrically determined heat output to measured energy input is the basis of the "over unity" result, simply *must* be accompanied by full disclosure of technical details about the power measurement itself. A single-minded fixation on the calorimetry simply will not do, because the input power measurement constitutes fully half of the experiment, and details about the way it is accomplished simply *must* be discussed. In that connection, Ed's setup was ideal: his power computation wasn't being done via hardware inside a "black box" purchased from a secretive private vendor, but instead was being done via software inside his Mac computer. Result: he was in a position to supply answers to the crucial questions about the input power measurement, and it was as a result possible to identify shortcomings and project with clarity what needed to be done to alleviate them. As a result of that discussion, I have recently been thinking about the possibility of using my computer for experimental data acquisition, as an oscilloscope, for power measurements, etc. Logically, all that would be needed would be an appropriately configured interface card, plus software. To that end, here are some relevant references and comments that I have pulled off of other groups or found in magazines: (1) If you will go to http://www.rdrop.com/~cary/html/robot_links.html#tool, you will find some very interesting links, including several of those listed below. (2) http://www.atcweb.com/ sells a $375 device (including probe) that plugs into the parallel port of a PC and turns it into a o'scope. (3) Velleman Electronic Kits http://www.velleman.be/kits/k7103.htm sells a $400 kit (assembly required) that plugs into the parallel port of a PC and turns it into a o'scope. (4) PC Instruments Inc. http://www.pcinstruments.com/ sells a $1 795 PCI-443 (PCI card and software to turn a PC into a Digital Oscilloscope) 12 bit resolution, 50 Msamples/s, 20 MHz bandwidth. (Data Acquisition) (5) Signatec Inc. http://www.signatec.com/ claims to sell the world's fastest 12 bit data acquisition board (turn a PC into a Digital Oscilloscope): $5 900 PDA12A 125 Msamples/s, dc to 50 MHz bandwidth; includes 512 Ksample RAM. (option of up to 2 Msample RAM) (6) Cat.#: 910-3914 http://www.radioshack.com/ sells a $ 400 optically isolated device to plug into your serial port and turn your PC into a digital o'scope. "a sampling frequency of up to 32MHz". (7) Vernier Software http://www.vernier.com/ sells $ 310 MultiPurpose Lab Interface (MPLI). http://www.vernier.com/mbl/mpli.html. It turns your computer into a three trace oscilloscope. The ISA-bus card along with the connection box supports three analog inputs. "The maximum data-collection rate is 75,000+ per second." (8) http://web-tronics.com/webtronics/data-acquisition---control.html seems to have a lot of low-cost ISA and PCI cards for turning a PC into a digital oscilloscope. Digital Oscilloscope Uses PC Sound Card for Input http://polly.phys.msu.su/~zeld/oscill.html (10) Cool "FREE" 20KHz oscilloscope "Winscope" which is ok for AF testing is available at http://polly.phys.msu.su/~zeld/oscill.html. All you then should get is a interface kit from Jaycar www.jaycar.com.au and it will set you back $29 (Cat no-KA-1811) (11) Another route: buy a Tektronix TDS 210 digital storage scope with the communications module option. Connect to PC. Write software to control scope and read data back to PC for display and analysis. (The programmer's manual for the scope is included with the communications module. Tek also sells software that does this). This is no longer low cost - the scope will cost as much as an adequate PC these days. But you get 1 gigasample/sec digitizing rate and 60+ MHz bandwidth, not the cheesy 48 kHz/20 kHz that a sound card provides, or the 20 megasamples/sec and 2 MHz of a PC "scope card". And you can even use the TDS 210 as a portable storage scope, without the PC. In fact, unless you want to do some relatively complex analysis of the data on the PC or save it permanently, you won't care about the PC at all. (12) Here is a comment from the Tektronix website concerning the above: "The Communication Extension Module allows RS-232 and GPIB programmability, plus the printing of screen shots via a Centronics-type parallel port. The Measurement Extension Module combines the features of the Communications Module plus Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) analysis and four additional measurements. Other optional accessories, such as WaveStar software and the AD007 GPIB-LAN adapter, add additional functionality to the TDS 200." (See http://www,tektronix.com.) (13) Pasco offers their "Science Workshop 500" for about $500, which includes interface hardware, and an assortment of sensors. Once you have the experimental data in your computer, you can then write your own software to analyze it, or you can use their DataStudio software for that purpose. (http:// www.pasco.com.) --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 08:25:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06244; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:23:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:23:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000218105647.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:22:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: World hunger problem website Resent-Message-ID: <"1-kUB2.0.TX1.F8Nhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here is one of the problems cold fusion would help eradicate: > >http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html > >Quote: > >About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. >This is down from 35,000 ten years ago, and 41,000 twenty years ago. >Three-fourths of the deaths are children under the age of five. > >Source: The Hunger Project, United Nations > >This estimate is higher other authoritative sources I have read. The lowest >credible estimate is around ~7,000 people per day. The total number of >victims during the 20th century was far higher than the numbers killed in >wars. (Roughly 1 billion compared to 100 million, I think.) > >- Jed ***{In virtually all of these cases, hunger is merely the proximate cause of death. If we trace the chain of causation further back, we will come to politics--specifically: to the fact that these people's property rights are routinely violated by the parasitic governments under which they live. If these people had been treated as the owner's of that which they produce by their intellectual and physical efforts, they would have, in virtually all cases, been able to acquire, via trade, the means to sustain their lives in comfort, up to the limits of a normal lifespan. That, however, is seldom permitted on this disgusting, pestilential globe. Instead, human lice ride on the backs of most of mankind, taxing and regulating them--for their protection, of course--in ways that prevent them from acquiring the means to sustain their lives, and thus ensuring that their lives are short and miserable. Cold fusion, even if it proves to be real, will solve those problems only to the extent that it permits the technically skilled victims of the parasitic state to escape from its clutches. For those who cannot or will not do that, CF will be of little or no benefit. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 09:05:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21398; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:03:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:03:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000218120238.007a0970 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:02:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: World hunger problem website In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000218105647.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cfS0S.0.CE5.6jNhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In this message, I meant to point out that all authoritative sources I have read agree with the UN report that the number of deaths is declining rapidly. This problem can be solved, and it *is* being solved. We should be optimistic, but impatient. The same can be said for the eradication of polio and other infectious diseases, and contraception. Most major public health problems are getting getting better, not worse -- except AIDS I think. CF or some other cheap form of energy would be a useful tool in this fight, but of course political reform, organization, money and willpower are needed. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 09:21:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13015; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000218111625.0134c46c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:16:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Computer Based Power Measurements In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eDkh11.0.BB3.ivNhu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:07 AM 2/18/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >A single-minded fixation on the calorimetry >simply will not do, because the input power measurement constitutes fully >half of the experiment.... Correct. >As a result of that discussion, I have recently been thinking about the >possibility of using my computer for experimental data acquisition, as an >oscilloscope, for power measurements, etc. You're on a workable track but I would like to point out a drawback that most scopes have for power measurements: accuracy. The whole idea behind a scope is to show you a PICTURE of the signal. To get blazing speed, they often sacrifice accuracy. I've personally observed scope+probe combinations exhibiting +/- 10% relative errors. When you multiply two such signals together the result has even bigger errors. If you're going to use a scope for power measurements, go for accuracy. Some of the PC-based units have very good specs. In a dedicated power analyzer (e.g. the Clarke-Hess 2330), design emphasis has been placed on making the analog front end and digitizing circuitry highly accurate (~0.1%) over a very wide bandwidth. They also strive for precise simultaneity in the V & I sampling. With all this taken care of, they sample at only a few kiloHertz (nominally 2155 Hz) and obtain excellent measurements of average power and RMS voltage and RMS current. No, the CH2330 has no idea what the waveform actually looks like. However, it does measure the fundamental frequency of the waveform (with a separate circuit). If that frequency coincides closely with the sampling frequency, it automatically changes the sampling frequency to avoid "beat" problems. Check out the description of this instrument at: http://www.clarke-hess.com/2330.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 09:26:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30439; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:22:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:22:52 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <14.10dd21f.25ded9dc aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:22:36 EST Subject: Re: Computer Based Power Measurements To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"Nw74e.0.XR7.i_Nhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/18/00 8:11:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net writes: > Since the discussion of the Ed Storms experiment, I have been more focused > than ever on the need to know the details of one's input power > measurements, if one is to perform any sort of bulletproof demonstration of > an "over unity" effect. <> Thanks to Mitchell for taking the time for surfing around and posting this information. It will be a great help to me. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 10:45:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25969; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:41:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:41:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000218111625.0134c46c mail.eden.com> References: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:41:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Computer Based Power Measurements Resent-Message-ID: <"_xNkD3.0.cL6.d9Phu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:07 AM 2/18/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>A single-minded fixation on the calorimetry >>simply will not do, because the input power measurement constitutes fully >>half of the experiment.... > >Correct. > >>As a result of that discussion, I have recently been thinking about the >>possibility of using my computer for experimental data acquisition, as an >>oscilloscope, for power measurements, etc. > >You're on a workable track but I would like to point out a drawback that >most scopes have for power measurements: accuracy. The whole idea behind >a scope is to show you a PICTURE of the signal. To get blazing speed, they >often sacrifice accuracy. I've personally observed scope+probe >combinations exhibiting +/- 10% relative errors. When you multiply two >such signals together the result has even bigger errors. > >If you're going to use a scope for power measurements, go for accuracy. >Some of the PC-based units have very good specs. > >In a dedicated power analyzer (e.g. the Clarke-Hess 2330), design emphasis >has been placed on making the analog front end and digitizing circuitry >highly accurate (~0.1%) over a very wide bandwidth. They also strive for >precise simultaneity in the V & I sampling. With all this taken care of, >they sample at only a few kiloHertz (nominally 2155 Hz) and obtain >excellent measurements of average power and RMS voltage and RMS current. >No, the CH2330 has no idea what the waveform actually looks like. However, >it does measure the fundamental frequency of the waveform (with a separate >circuit). If that frequency coincides closely with the sampling frequency, >it automatically changes the sampling frequency to avoid "beat" problems. > >Check out the description of this instrument at: > >http://www.clarke-hess.com/2330.html ***{I looked it over. Very impressive. It seems to do virtually everything that Don Lancaster emphasized in our discussion of a couple of years ago, with one exception: he advocated taking "hundreds of samples per half-cycle." That would be, at minimum, 400 samples per cycle. Since the Clarke-Hess only samples at 2155 Hz, it would meet this standard only for waveforms up to about 4 Hz. However, with the asynchronous sampling rate (which is varied under microprocessor control to avoid sampling at the waveform frequency or its harmonics), that becomes less important. There was, however, one gaping omission on the website: I couldn't find a price quote. Do you have a ballpark figure? --MJ}*** > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 10:54:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29992; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:50:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:50:04 -0800 Message-ID: <38AD94D2.66176F22 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:52:06 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Computer Based Power Measurements References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M8A991.0.UK7.RHPhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I recommend the National Instruments (800 433-3488) DA card using LabView as the software. While this combination is rather expensive, it allows data from DC to MHz to be taken on 16 to hundreds of channels while doing any kind of calculation and plotting the data in real time. The card can also be used to run the experiment. Either a PC or a Mac can be used. Ed Storms Mitchell Jones wrote: > Since the discussion of the Ed Storms experiment, I have been more focused > than ever on the need to know the details of one's input power > measurements, if one is to perform any sort of bulletproof demonstration of > an "over unity" effect. The use of "black box" instrumentation is > inappropriate, because the difficulties associated with measuring input > power under these sorts of complex and often chaotic electrical conditions > are extremely large. That means claims such as those made by Mizuno, Miles, > and others, where a comparison of calorimetrically determined heat output > to measured energy input is the basis of the "over unity" result, simply > *must* be accompanied by full disclosure of technical details about the > power measurement itself. A single-minded fixation on the calorimetry > simply will not do, because the input power measurement constitutes fully > half of the experiment, and details about the way it is accomplished simply > *must* be discussed. In that connection, Ed's setup was ideal: his power > computation wasn't being done via hardware inside a "black box" purchased > from a secretive private vendor, but instead was being done via software > inside his Mac computer. Result: he was in a position to supply answers to > the crucial questions about the input power measurement, and it was as a > result possible to identify shortcomings and project with clarity what > needed to be done to alleviate them. > > As a result of that discussion, I have recently been thinking about the > possibility of using my computer for experimental data acquisition, as an > oscilloscope, for power measurements, etc. Logically, all that would be > needed would be an appropriately configured interface card, plus software. > To that end, here are some relevant references and comments that I have > pulled off of other groups or found in magazines: > > (1) If you will go to > http://www.rdrop.com/~cary/html/robot_links.html#tool, you will find some > very interesting links, including several of those listed below. > > (2) http://www.atcweb.com/ sells a $375 device (including probe) that plugs > into the parallel port of a PC and turns it into a o'scope. > > (3) Velleman Electronic Kits http://www.velleman.be/kits/k7103.htm sells a > $400 kit (assembly required) that plugs into the parallel port of a PC and > turns it into a o'scope. > > (4) PC Instruments Inc. http://www.pcinstruments.com/ sells a $1 795 > PCI-443 (PCI card and software to turn a PC into a Digital Oscilloscope) 12 > bit resolution, 50 Msamples/s, 20 MHz bandwidth. (Data Acquisition) > > (5) Signatec Inc. http://www.signatec.com/ claims to sell the world's > fastest 12 bit data acquisition board (turn a PC into a Digital > Oscilloscope): $5 900 PDA12A 125 Msamples/s, dc to 50 MHz bandwidth; > includes 512 Ksample RAM. (option of up to 2 Msample RAM) > > (6) Cat.#: 910-3914 http://www.radioshack.com/ sells a $ 400 optically > isolated device to plug into your serial port and turn your PC into a > digital o'scope. "a sampling frequency of up to 32MHz". > > (7) Vernier Software http://www.vernier.com/ sells $ 310 MultiPurpose Lab > Interface (MPLI). http://www.vernier.com/mbl/mpli.html. It turns your > computer into a three trace oscilloscope. The ISA-bus card along with the > connection box supports three analog inputs. "The maximum data-collection > rate is 75,000+ per second." > > (8) http://web-tronics.com/webtronics/data-acquisition---control.html seems > to have a lot of low-cost ISA and PCI cards for turning a PC into a digital > oscilloscope. Digital Oscilloscope Uses PC Sound Card for Input > http://polly.phys.msu.su/~zeld/oscill.html > > (10) Cool "FREE" 20KHz oscilloscope "Winscope" which is ok for AF testing > is available at http://polly.phys.msu.su/~zeld/oscill.html. All you then > should get is a interface kit from Jaycar www.jaycar.com.au and it will set > you back $29 (Cat no-KA-1811) > > (11) Another route: buy a Tektronix TDS 210 digital storage scope with the > communications module option. Connect to PC. Write software to control > scope and read data back to PC for display and analysis. (The programmer's > manual for the scope is included with the communications module. Tek also > sells software that does this). > > This is no longer low cost - the scope will cost as much as an adequate PC > these days. But you get 1 gigasample/sec digitizing rate and 60+ MHz > bandwidth, not the cheesy 48 kHz/20 kHz that a sound card provides, or the > 20 megasamples/sec and 2 MHz of a PC "scope card". > > And you can even use the TDS 210 as a portable storage scope, without the > PC. In fact, unless you want to do some relatively complex analysis of the > data on the PC or save it permanently, you won't care about the PC at all. > > (12) Here is a comment from the Tektronix website concerning the above: > > "The Communication Extension Module allows RS-232 and GPIB programmability, > plus the printing of screen shots via a Centronics-type parallel port. The > Measurement Extension Module combines the features of the Communications > Module plus Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) analysis and four additional > measurements. Other optional accessories, such as WaveStar software and the > AD007 GPIB-LAN adapter, add additional functionality to the TDS 200." (See > http://www,tektronix.com.) > > (13) Pasco offers their "Science Workshop 500" for about $500, which > includes interface hardware, and an assortment of sensors. Once you have > the experimental data in your computer, you can then write your own > software to analyze it, or you can use their DataStudio software for that > purpose. (http:// www.pasco.com.) > > --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 11:43:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14128; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:41:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:41:11 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:40:19 -0500 From: "Susan J. Seddon" Subject: Re: World hunger problem website Sender: "Susan J. Seddon" To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <200002181440_MC2-99C2-2C55 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA13940 Resent-Message-ID: <"fjnEZ.0.eS3.K1Qhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: < This problem can be solved, and it *is* being solved> Still pretty shitty that we're incapable of by-passing the political BS and other obstructions so we can spread the plentiful resources of this world more effectively and fairly. Seven thousand dying every day - it's just too appalling to fully comprehend. <......... except AIDS I think.> It's true, there is one job even worse than that of PR Director for the London Millennium Dome......being Minister of Health for South Africa. - Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 12:16:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25725; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:13:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:13:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200002181440_MC2-99C2-2C55 compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:12:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: World hunger problem website Resent-Message-ID: <"9znnh2.0.bH6.vVQhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jed wrote: < This problem can be solved, and it *is* being solved> > >Still pretty shitty that we're incapable of by-passing the political BS and >other obstructions so we can spread the plentiful resources of this world >more effectively and fairly. ***{If by this statement you refer to the forcible seizure, by taxation and regulation, of the property of others, that *is* politics. And, worse, it is *why* these people are dying. All that needs to be done to bring an end to such deaths is to simply recognize that human beings are the rightful owners of that which they produce by their physical and intellectual efforts. If that were done, the millions who are presently starving would be enabled to obtain, via trade, that which they need to sustain themselves in comfort through a normal lifespan. Unfortunately, the lice who are presently riding on all our backs will find that approach objectionable, and, since they are backed by armies and guns, their will will be done, and the dying will continue, as it always has. --MJ}*** Seven thousand dying every day - it's just >too appalling to fully comprehend. ***{All that you need to do to comprehend it is to admit that it is precisely those who claim they want to "spread the plentiful resources of this world more effectively and fairly"--i.e., to take property from its rightful owners by means of taxation and regulation--who are killing them. --MJ}*** > ><......... except AIDS I think.> > >It's true, there is one job even worse than that of PR Director for the >London Millennium Dome......being Minister of Health for South Africa. > >- Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 12:42:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01916; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:39:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:39:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000218143943.013538cc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:39:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Computer Based Power Measurements In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000218111625.0134c46c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_6iQ63.0.sT.BuQhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:41 PM 2/18/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >There >was, however, one gaping omission on the website: I couldn't find a price >quote. Do you have a ballpark figure? --MJ}*** The CH2330 is about $3500. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 13:06:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27319; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:57:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:57:29 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:56:21 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Antigravity experiment reported positive Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"x5S_h3.0.ng6.s8Rhu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts - Swiped and crossposted from freenrg-l. If real, Huge^n. Probably not real. :) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI --------------copy of message----------------- All, De Aquino's papers can be found at: http://www.elo.com.br/~deaquino/ http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036 Steve Burns -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:35 AM To: sburns ironbridgenetworks.com Subject: Good News!!! System worked. Steve, Today January 27 , 2000 at 10:15 o'clock AM ( local time )the system-G worked. Practical problems are over at least.The apparatus worked well and the obtained experimental results confirmed my theoretical predictions. Fran De Aquino -----Mensagem original----- De: Steve Burns Data: Quinta-feira, 27 de Janeiro de 2000 11:58 Assunto: RE: Good News!!! System worked. Fran, Does this mean you obtained significant weight reduction? Steve -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 9:15 AM To: sburns ironbridgenetworks.com Subject: En: Good News!!! System worked. Yes! The weight nullified, and after inverted.All according my mg equation. -----Mensagem original----- De: Steve Burns Data: Quinta-feira, 27 de Janeiro de 2000 12:33 Assunto: RE: Good News!!! System worked. Fran, I predict you will receive the Nobel prize faster than the high temperature superconductor guys. Congratulations and please keep me posted. Steve Thanks Steve. This experimental results are the conclusion of the research which I began 25 years ago.I am very , very happy.The experiment showed another important gravitational phenomenon ; when the total gravitational mass of the annealed iron was nullified, we verify the GRAVITATIONAL SHIELDING phenomenon . At this moment disappears the weight of everything that is inside of the annealed iron tube ( i.e., iron powder, antenna, etc.), the scale just indicates the weight of the steel tube which involves the one of annealed iron. Fran Fran, I believed in it. YOU HAVE A REASON TO BE HAPPY! Can the iron be made thinner and still shield? Also, I bet if you decreased frequency, the antigravity layer of the iron will cause the apparatus to levitate. Steve Steve Yes, the iron can be made thinner ( up to nearly one nanometer)and still shield because are the gravitational masses of their ATOMS ( diameter approx. one Angstron) that still nullified. The annealed iron tube is the gravitational shielding WHILE its gravitational still nulified.The experiment confirmed that everything inside it lose its weight under these conditions.If we decrease the frequency we reduce the power radiated by the antenna.This way , we must INCREASE the current to produce the apparatus levitation.In the experiment the system-G doesn't levitates because the maximun current was 300 A. It was necessary nearly 400A.We will try to reach this in a future experiment. In attachment the archives named "New apparatus1" and "New apparatus2" that contains all about the experiment carried out today.If you want , you can try to carry out this experiment it is easy and not expensive. Fran From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 13:07:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10212; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:01:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:01:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000218160103.007a68a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:01:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Storms paper, Part II uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Pki9w.0.UV2.eCRhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I uploaded E. Storms, "Anomalous Power Production from Specially Treated Platinum using the Pons-Fleischmann Effect, Part II" See: http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm (The original paper is Pt-energy.htm.) Per a suggestion from Scott Little, I used Microsoft Photo Editor to increase the contrast of the images and saved them in .GIF format. I may have gone overboard on that. Let me know if they are too small or hard to read. The raw spreadsheet data in Excell format is uploaded in filename: Data, Part II - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 13:28:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21009; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:25:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:25:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000218162443.0079e630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:24:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: World hunger problem website In-Reply-To: <200002181440_MC2-99C2-2C55 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1Fi8c2.0.s75.pYRhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Susan J. Seddon wrote: >Still pretty shitty that we're incapable of by_passing the political BS and >other obstructions so we can spread the plentiful resources of this world >more effectively and fairly. Yeah, it is heartbreaking. The actual, physical task does not call for “spreading” resources, that is, moving things from one country to another, so much as conserving food and improving harvesting techniques. We want to feed people instead of feeding vermin and microorganisms. Many problems can be fixed by upgrading third-world food storage facilities, transportation, refrigeration, preservation and so on. A truck carrying fruit on a bouncing, rutted, crowded road will damage the fruit and take too long to reach the market. Smoother roads and regional storage silos and warehouses can help. A friend of mine fought for years to have refrigerated warehouses built in northern Alaska, of all places. People thought it was a joke, but it turned out the Inuit food supplies were badly damaged during the short summer. Even in the U.S., a fantastic amount of food is spoiled by fungus and bacteria. Oxfam has done brilliant work in this area. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 13:37:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25119; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:34:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:34:50 -0800 Message-ID: <38ADBB71.B35AF979 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:36:51 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms paper, Part II uploaded References: <3.0.6.32.20000218160103.007a68a0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MiKyR3.0.O86.vhRhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To All, Part II of the paper describing excess energy production from platinum attempts to answer the various prosaic explanations for the observed excess power. I invite any and all to examine the data and come to your own conclusions. Ed Storms Jed Rothwell wrote: > I uploaded E. Storms, "Anomalous Power Production from Specially Treated > Platinum using the Pons-Fleischmann Effect, Part II" See: > > http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm > > (The original paper is Pt-energy.htm.) > > Per a suggestion from Scott Little, I used Microsoft Photo Editor to > increase the contrast of the images and saved them in .GIF format. I may > have gone overboard on that. Let me know if they are too small or hard to > read. > > The raw spreadsheet data in Excell format is uploaded in filename: > > Data, Part II > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 17:01:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01215; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:57:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:57:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:56:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: A Post for the Ages Resent-Message-ID: <"31sdC.0.tI.qfUhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{I found this on sci.physics.fusion today. This guy is soliciting ideas for the *prevention* of cold fusion, and I think he is serious! It cracked me up! --MJ}*** Gentlemen, I have been asked to do some research for a small start up company and to do so economically and with discretion. They have developed a small electronic device for the acceleration of protons (hydrogen ions) to moderately high energies. It should work for deuterons (deuterium ions) as well. They are interested in possible commercial applications. One possibility suggested is to use it to accelerate deuterons into a target rich in deuterium and tritium. Because of its small size this could serve as a compact source of neutrons at energies around 4.3 and 14.7 MeV. It could be marketed to the mining industry. It could be inserted into a drill hole and be used as a neutron source for activation analysis. With a compact gamma detector it could be used for in situ assay of valuable minerals. These are just preliminary proposals. Palladium has a large capacity to absorb hydrogen. It has been proposed that a palladium wafer could be charged with deuterium and tritium and then plastic laminated to serve as a target. It seems the most efficient method for charging such a palladium wafer with deuterium/tritium would be via electrolysis. We would need heavy water, D2O, highly enriched in tritium and a closed system for the cryogenic capture of DT gas as it is formed. The plastic lamination would help prevent the loss of tritium after the palladium wafer is saturated. I've been lurking in this newsgroup and I recognize the controversial nature of cold fusion. What I wish to know is if anyone has any good sound ideas on preventing cold fusion in the situation I've just described. At least one electrochemist has died in similar work. We don't *want* any excess heat, radiation or explosions. Would cooling serve to minimize the risk of cold fusion? What about the choice of electrolyte? A solution containing tritium ought to be rich in free radicals due to beta decay of tritium. Would an electrolyte be required? What is the electrical conductivity of tritiated heavy water? If cooling would help prevent cold fusion, are the thermodynamic properties, like thermal conductivity and heat capacity known well enough for the design of a cooling system? Does the palladium purity or the presence of impurities enhance or diminish the likelihood of cold fusion? Likewise can palladium be alloyed with some other metal(s) to diminish the likelihood of cold fusion without diminishing its capacity to absorb hydrogen or its isotopes? Does the crystal phase or surface preparation matter? What about prior heat annealing or vacuum annealing? As I understand it, the electrolysis cell voltage must exceed the hydrogen overpotential for hydrogen generation so that the palladium can be charged with hydrogen or its isotopes. Should the voltage be set to the minimum practical overvoltage or greater? Should it be constant DC or ramped or should an AC component be added and of what magnitude? Would any solute serve to poison the palladium and diminish the likelihood of cold fusion? It may seem presumptive of the existence of cold fusion to ask so many questions for the prevention of cold fusion, but it seems that the use of tritiated heavy water and electrolysis upon palladium makes it a possibility to be considered for safety reasons. It is a double-edged sword. We wish to exploit the large capacity of palladium to absorb hydrogen and its isotopes. We wish to exploit electrolysis above the hydrogen overpotential as an efficient means to charge a palladium wafer with deuterium and tritium. And finally, we wish to prevent cold fusion. I hope this will sparks some enlightened debate in this forum on the topic of preventing cold fusion. Thanks, Andy Macintosh From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 19:53:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31428; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:50:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:50:59 -0800 Message-ID: <38AD308B.15AE9DFA ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 03:44:11 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 18, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k_EiQ3.0.-g7.YCXhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Feb 18, 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:47:19 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 18 Feb 00 Washington, DC 1. NMD: OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES OPPOSE NATIONAL MISSILE DEFENSE. If President Clinton decides to deploy, change must be negotiated in the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. The Russians refuse to consider modifications. They believe a limited defense against North Korea would escalate into a defense against China. Many NMD proponents would like that. China, in turn, might counter NMD by building more missiles. Does this sound familiar? Europeans point out that a full-blown US defense would violate the NATO principle of equal protection. 2. PATENT NONSENSE: INFINITE ENERGY MEETS INFINITE BANDWIDTH. On Tuesday, BlackLight Power was awarded a patent for a chemical means of shrinking hydrogen atoms into "a state below the ground state." The, uh, inventor, Randall Mills, calls his teeny little hydrogen atoms "hydrinos" (WN 22 Jan 99). Mills describes them as, "the most important discovery of all time...up there with fire." The second most important discovery, I suppose, would be to find the hydrino line in the spectrum. In November, a patent was awarded to Media Fusion for Advanced Sub-Carrier Modulation, a method of transmitting data over ordinary power lines with a 10 GHz bandwidth. The claim is that magnetic fields surrounding the conductor can act as a waveguide. In a classic understatement, the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) has issued a warning to members that Media Fusion's claims "lack scientific merit." 3. SCIENCE AND RELIGION: AAAS COUNCIL TO DISCUSS "THE DIALOGUE." The AAAS Dialogue on Science and Religion started in 1995 with $1.5M from the Templeton Foundation, a private foundation devoted to the views of its founder (WN 16 Apr 99). In the opinion of the officers of the Section on Physics, the Dialogue has been distinctly at odds with the AAAS mission to advance science. At the insistence of the Section, the program will be discussed by the AAAS Council at its meeting on Sunday at 9:45am. 4. COPYCATS: TEXAS A&M RESEARCHERS FORM PET-CLONING COMPANY. It began when the anonymous owner of an aging border collie named Missy gave A&M $2.3M to clone her. A&M hasn't come up with Missy II yet, but why turn away hoards of other deep-pocket owners wanting pets copied? So the A&M researchers have formed (groan) Genetic Savings and Clone. Since pets are often considered to be members of the family, it seems like a modest step to include the other members. WN sought out physicist Richard Seed for comment. He made headlines two years ago by proposing to clone humans (WN 9 Jan 98). Dogs, he explained, are hard to clone, for reasons we can't go into in a family newsletter. But humans, he predicted, will be cloned "sooner than anyone thinks." This brings up an urgent question: who should be cloned first? The choice of the WN staff is Leonardo DeCaprio, on the grounds that it would not involve a sentient being. We welcome suggestions from readers. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's, and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 19:55:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00490; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:53:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:53:14 -0800 Message-ID: <20000219035307.3003.qmail nwcst292.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 18 Feb 00 22:53:07 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Antigravity and Free Energy Finally Achieved] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----NetAddressPart-00--=_sD2H1232S92114a19d2" Resent-Message-ID: <"K_WV11.0.N7.fEXhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------NetAddressPart-00--=_sD2H1232S92114a19d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't visualize the spirals as drawn on = http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/gr-qc/9910036 (see attached drawing) First of all on the drawing the spirals are round and you are writing tha= t they are square. Second, on the drawing the spiral has 3 turns on the sa= me axis and on the other drawing there are six non-concentric circles around= a black circle (dielectric ring), what the hell...? If anyone who understands this construction draws the spirals in 3D, he w= ill get a lot of kudos... Horace "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: > Two 10m (or 5m, for total of 10m?) lengths of 1/2" diameter paint insul= ated > copper rods are wound into square-spiral forms, ~340mm by 343mm, with t= he > leftmost coil (facing device from top) being wound counterclockwise, an= d > the other clockwise. The center leads on the spirals are not electrical= ly > connected to anything (they are insulated). The two free ends of the co= pper > rod (one for each spiral) are attached to the secondary of the above > transformer. This setup is supposed to be a dipole antenna. This dipole= is > placed within a rectangular tube of annealed pure iron, thickness 0.6mm= , > which is filled with iron powder. This is then placed within an aluminu= m > box, put on a scale and weighed. When current is applied, it is claimed= to > lose almost all of its weight. = > = > I don't know what to make of it. Much data on tests, type of scale, etc= =2E, > is lacking. Thoughts??? > = > --Kyle R. Mcallister ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------NetAddressPart-00--=_sD2H1232S92114a19d2 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Image1794.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Image1794.gif" R0lGODlhZgKzA/cAAAAAAMDAwP39/f///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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z6FHlz7dLXXrRUdf176de/fndb2HFz8+emvy39+aP7+efXv37+HHlz+ffn379/Hn17+ff3// /wEMUMABCSzQwAMRTFDBBRls0MEHIYxQwgkprNDCCzHMUMMNOezQww9BDFHEEUks0cQTUUxR xRVZbNHFF2GMXlHGGWms0cYbccxRxx157NHHH4EMUsghiSzSyCORTFLJJZls0sknoYxSyimp rNLKK7HMUsstuezSyy/BDFPMMcks08wz0UxTzTXZbNPNN+GMU8456azTzjvxzFPPPfke7NPP PwENVNBBCS3U0EMRTVTRRRlt1NFHIY00sYAAADs= ------NetAddressPart-00--=_sD2H1232S92114a19d2-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 20:38:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15984; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:31:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:31:04 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:30:23 EST Subject: Re: d + p fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"04B1q3.0.gv3.8oXhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/18/2000 1:29:30 AM, Michael Schaffer wrote: << No fusion experiments use d + p reaction, because its cross section is orders of magnitude lower than for d + d. >> Mmmm... I wonder where my disinformation came from. On checking my notes, I can't tell. Another lesson in the importance of noting sources. Anyway, I accept Michael's answer, because that would explain why there aren't any d + p fusion experiments. Michael, is there a web page that lists cross sections for fusion reactions, preferably including solar and stellar ones like p + p --> d + positron + neutrino (assuming I've got that one right)? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 22:24:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20901; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:23:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:23:30 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:28:39 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigravity experiment reported positive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BMrU_3.0.Q65.YRZhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, I tried to follow this.... After main announcement and a URL then not much action. I asked for before and after energization weight ... no answer, asked 7 times in 4 ways..... no answer. Anyone: Let us know if you get any real world answer, Thanks, J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 22:27:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20959; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:23:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:23:56 -0800 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:23:48 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200002180924.KAA29098 front6m.grolier.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Mills / Brown / Graneau article Resent-Message-ID: <"srLNj.0.P75.yRZhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jean-Pierre Lentin posted this article. I want to thank your for bringing >this to my attention. Postings like this are the reason that I subscribe >to Vortex-L. Thomas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 23:23:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01487; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:22:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:22:27 -0800 Message-ID: <011301bf7a54$f2fef560$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) Reactions in Seawater? Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:10:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0ti7h2.0.9N.oIahu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Assuming the prolific production of Positrino-Negatrino Pairs (LL +/-, 0.2 ev each) in seawater from Infrared (3.1 micron, 0.4 ev) Solar Insolation over a few billion years: 1, P + (Negatrino) ---> P* + 13.6 ev photon 2, P* + P ----> D + (e+) + Neutrino + Negatrino + 1.44 Mev 3, P* + 19K39 ----> 20Ca40 + Negatrino + 8.3 Mev 4, Rarely: P* + D ----> Tritium + Negatrino + 5.38 Mev The anomalously high Na/K ratio in seawater and the H/D ratio (1/6700)tends to support this. IOW, the Sun's " Nuclear Reaction Zone" doesn't stop at it's core. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 00:31:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA12983; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:30:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:30:41 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) Reactions in Seawater? Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:30:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <011301bf7a54$f2fef560$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <011301bf7a54$f2fef560$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA12960 Resent-Message-ID: <"glvZy2.0.nA3.nIbhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:10:41 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >To: Vortex > >Assuming the prolific production of Positrino-Negatrino Pairs (LL +/-, 0.2 ev each) in seawater >from >Infrared (3.1 micron, 0.4 ev) Solar Insolation over a few billion years: > >1, P + (Negatrino) ---> P* + 13.6 ev photon > >2, P* + P ----> D + (e+) + Neutrino + Negatrino + 1.44 Mev Since no electron capture takes place here, you don't get that much energy. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 06:07:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA13343; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:41:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:41:12 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38AEABC4.15852E5F mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:42:12 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Computer Based Power Measurements References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"evqPz1.0.KG3.trfhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: Since the discussion of the Ed Storms experiment, I have been more focused than ever on the need to know the details of one's input power measurements... (7) Vernier Software http://www.vernier.com/ sells $ 310 MultiPurpose Lab Interface (MPLI). http://www.vernier.com/mbl/mpli.html ... Hi Mitchell, Thankyou for this useful compilation. I have used the Vernier software for data acquisition, and it works well. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 06:41:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23398; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 06:32:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 06:32:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000219083407.006e3df0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:34:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Storms II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uDWpW3.0.Wj5.Ccghu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, I note in Part II that you did hold the current at 3 A for a good while at one time. However, the results of that portion of the run don't tell us anything because the sample didn't get up to a decent EP before the 3 A hold. I think it could be quite valuable to wait for the next current sweep that DOES produce ~.75 watts of EP and then stop the sweep at the top (3 A) and record the natural decay of the EP signal that we expect to occur. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 08:15:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27632; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:12:12 -0800 Message-ID: <019101bf7adf$e8d2fba0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Photon Activated Water for CF/OU Experiments Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:47:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8dAag3.0.gl6.S3ihu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With it's propensity for peculiar behavior, water irradiated with Infrared light might show CF/OU effects that won't show up after it is exposed to light containing higher energy photons. Rather than a "sun tea" exposure where the higher energy photons dump metastable states, irradiation using IR heat lamps spaced so that the water temperature is held close to room temperature, might be more effective. After IR exposure the water (shielded from room light) can be tried in the various "Wet" CF/OU experiments. Could this be Scott's "Secret Ingredient"? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 09:30:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13250; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:28:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:28:45 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000219035307.3003.qmail nwcst292.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:28:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: [Antigravity and Free Energy Finally Achieved] Resent-Message-ID: <"zyQhx.0.yE3.DBjhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I can't visualize the spirals as drawn on >http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/gr-qc/9910036 (see attached drawing) > >First of all on the drawing the spirals are round and you are writing that >they are square. Second, on the drawing the spiral has 3 turns on the same >axis and on the other drawing there are six non-concentric circles around a >black circle (dielectric ring), what the hell...? > >If anyone who understands this construction draws the spirals in 3D, he will >get a lot of kudos... you're right, Horace, the diagram is confusing. Even more confusing is the earlier description that says one coil has 2 turns and the other has 12 turns... however, I think I see what he is trying to draw. There are two loops of 3 turns each. The diagram labeled 'antenna top view' shows the top side of the windings (2-1-2), which correspond to the top 3 conductors in the cross-section, which is drawn to left. What is missing is the bottom view, which would look just like the top, but with opposite conductor numbering (1-2-1). so, the number 2 conductor goes around once on the outside top of the dielectric in the middle, then drops down and goes around again, this time along the bottom center of the dielectric, then comes back up around the inside top edge. the number 1 conductor follows the opposite pattern, outside bottom, center top, inside bottom... I hope this helps... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 12:58:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12788; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:55:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:55:48 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:55:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: [Antigravity and Free Energy Finally Achieved] Resent-Message-ID: <"TE0za3.0.d73.IDmhu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see now, as I take another look at the diagram, that the two coils are not really coils at all, they are only connected at one end, so they are really two parts of a dipole (as is stated in the description next to the drawing: "three turns of spiral for each dipole element." calling these things spirals may just be a poor choice of words. I also now see that the coils referred to in the description are those of the step-down transformer used to drive the antenna... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 15:02:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08729; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:00:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:00:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 17:01:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Storms II, V&I low Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vQ9mc.0.I82.P2ohu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, I see a note in the new data file at hour 71.741 that says, "V and I reading low", written beside 5 observations taken during sweep 3 that show a very large, presumably erroneous, EP. What was happening then? Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 20:06:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA20944; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:04:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:04:54 -0800 Message-ID: <38AF6865.8ECFC81E ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:07:03 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3V8Ef.0.A75.cVshu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, I do not know. The applied current is lower than expected but the cell resistance is normal, meaning the voltage is correct but correspondingly low. Except for this anomaly, all else seems normal, except the EP is much too high for five points in a row. I find the high EP values hard to believe but I see no explanation. Maybe you can find a reason. Ed Scott Little wrote: > Ed, > > I see a note in the new data file at hour 71.741 that says, "V and I > reading low", written beside 5 observations taken during sweep 3 that show > a very large, presumably erroneous, EP. What was happening then? > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 20:14:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22758; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:13:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:13:25 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:12:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> <38AF6865.8ECFC81E@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38AF6865.8ECFC81E ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA22741 Resent-Message-ID: <"V7KLM2.0.VZ5.adshu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:07:03 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Scott, >I do not know. The applied current is lower than expected but the cell >resistance is normal, meaning the voltage is correct but correspondingly >low. Except for this anomaly, all else seems normal, except the EP is much >too high for five points in a row. I find the high EP values hard to believe >but I see no explanation. Maybe you can find a reason. [snip] Sounds to me like it might have been a loose power connection resulting in a voltage drop, and hence low current and consequent drop in input power, while the thermal mass of the cell maintained the temp differential. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 05:31:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA05999; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:30:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:30:56 -0800 Message-ID: <01df01bf7b9a$35441ea0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: AG Stuff Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 04:00:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gj9vx1.0.fT1.Go-hu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To; Vortex The established radius R of the electron is 2.81E-15 meters, thus the time for a wave disturbance to circle around at c is 2(pi)R/c = 5.885E-23 seconds, or the frequency the reciprocal of this is 1.7E22 Hz. The current is q*f = 1.6E-19*1.7E22 = 2,719 amperes. Thus as a loop current in ampere-meters: 2(pi)R*2,719 = 4.8E-11 ampere-meters which is a constant for any particle or "quark" in it's reference frame. But the measured G factor = 6.67E-11 *M1*M2/r^2 gives a world value of: (6.67E-11/1.0E-7)^1/2 = 0.02583 ampere-meters/kg Thus to find the frequency of the electron you must find it's frequency dilation which is 4.8E-11/(0.02583*9.1E-31 kg) = 2.04E21. Thus it's world frequency is 1.7E22/2.04E21 = 8.32 Hz which the close to the same as the "Schumann Resonance Frequency" of the cavity between the Earth and the Ionosphere! For each of the 3 quarks in a proton: 4.8E-11/(0.02583*5.56-27 kg) = the dilation = 8.62E16. Consider the Quarks in the nucleus as turns in solenoid, with the currents adding up to produce a "relativistic magnetic field" of n ampere-turns. Thus the freqency = 624*1.7E22 = 1.06E25 Hz, thus it's gravitation frequency is 1.06E25/8.62E16 equal 122.46 Megahertz! Thus for a 1.0 ampere-meter coil (for the electrons)at the 8.32 hz synch frequency, the AG force is: 1.0E-7 * 1.0 * 0.02583 * 5.98E24/[4000*(6.38E6)^2] = 0.095 newtons or 0.021 pounds, assuming that the electrons are 1/4,000th of the 5.98E24 kg mass of the Earth with it's radius of 6.38E6 meters. For a 1.0 ampere-meter coil (for protons and the rest of the Earth's atoms) at the 122.46 Megahertz synch frequency the AG force is: 1.0E-7 * 1.0 * 0.02583 * 5.98E24/(6.38E6)^2 = 379 newtons or 85 pounds. Since Fran is using 60 hz and 138 amperes with ~ 12 meters of current loops (1,656 ampere-meters): Force = 1.0E-7 *138*12*0.02583 * 5.98E24/[4,000*(6.38E6)^2] = 157 newtons or 35.27 pounds which is close to the 0.021 pounds/ampere-meter theoretical AG force at the 8.32 hz electron frequency, but he is wasting power with the 60 hertz sine-wave frequency. This is a back-of-the-envelope calculation, based on my interpretation of his apparatus, but it looks like he is on to something. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 09:20:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23717; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:19:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:19:39 -0800 Message-ID: <38B022A7.1C57B832 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:21:45 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> <38AF6865.8ECFC81E@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MfHQp1.0.Uo5.g82iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, this explanation is not possible. If the power to the cell dropped, the temperature of the cooling water would immediately also drop. Although the cell would not reach thermal equilibrium for another 50 minutes, a steady change in the temperature is seen along with a steady change in the apparent EP. Such an effect is clearly visible when the power is initially changed between data points. The data points in the "strange" set are taken over about 30 minutes and show very little change with time. Ed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:07:03 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >Scott, > >I do not know. The applied current is lower than expected but the cell > >resistance is normal, meaning the voltage is correct but correspondingly > >low. Except for this anomaly, all else seems normal, except the EP is much > >too high for five points in a row. I find the high EP values hard to believe > >but I see no explanation. Maybe you can find a reason. > [snip] > Sounds to me like it might have been a loose power connection resulting in a > voltage drop, and hence low current and consequent drop in input power, > while the thermal mass of the cell maintained the temp differential. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 09:22:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24803; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:21:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:21:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000220112115.00736034 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:21:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: References: <38AF6865.8ECFC81E ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> <38AF6865.8ECFC81E ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X3p5A1.0.O36.IA2iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:12 PM 2/20/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:07:03 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >>I do not know. The applied current is lower than expected but the cell >>resistance is normal, meaning the voltage is correct but correspondingly >>low. Except for this anomaly, all else seems normal, except the EP is much >>too high for five points in a row. I find the high EP values hard to believe >>but I see no explanation. Maybe you can find a reason. >Sounds to me like it might have been a loose power connection resulting in a >voltage drop, and hence low current and consequent drop in input power, >while the thermal mass of the cell maintained the temp differential. Since Ed's power supply is configured for constant current, a loose connection in the main circuit from the supply to the cell would produce a RISE in voltage as the supply tried to maintain it's current setpoint. The problem seems to be something odd in the voltage and current MONITORING circuits. If I compare sweep 1 and 3 by plotting Pout3 vs Pout1, I get a nice straight line including the last point where the V&I misbehavior was observed. However, a plot of Pin3 vs Pin1 shows a distinct "kink" at the last point with the Pin3 values looking anomalously low. This indicates that, on sweep 3 where the problem occurred, the actual power delivered to the cell was "correct" but the power measured was incorrect. Astonishingly, a comparison of cell resistances (computed by V/I) from sweeps 1 & 3 show the anomalous readings from sweep 3 precisely where they should be (as Ed said). Whatever was affecting the V & I measurements was doing so in a manner that preserved their correct proportionality! Other than this, Ed, the rest of the data looks pretty good to me. That is, I haven't found any disturbing patterns that suggest that the EP signal might be artifactual. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 10:31:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10662; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:29:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:29:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low Resent-Message-ID: <"zZfrE1.0.Uc2.bA3iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ed, > >I see a note in the new data file at hour 71.741 that says, "V and I >reading low" ***{I see no such notation in any of the graphs in Ed's most recent writeup. If there is a data file other than the file at http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm, where is it to be found? --MJ}*** , written beside 5 observations taken during sweep 3 that show >a very large, presumably erroneous, EP. What was happening then? > > > > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 13:11:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20091; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:08:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:08:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01df01bf7b9a$35441ea0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> References: <01df01bf7b9a$35441ea0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:07:56 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: AG Stuff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"nZ5sb.0.ov4.KV5iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick wrote: >The established radius R of the electron is 2.81E-15 >meters, thus the time for a wave disturbance to circle >around at c is 2(pi)R/c = 5.885E-23 seconds, or the >frequency the reciprocal of this is 1.7E22 Hz. The current >is q*f = 1.6E-19*1.7E22 = 2,719 amperes. > >Thus as a loop current in ampere-meters: 2(pi)R*2,719 >= 4.8E-11 ampere-meters which is a constant for any >particle or "quark" in it's reference frame. > >But the measured G factor = 6.67E-11 *M1*M2/r^2 >gives a world value of: > >(6.67E-11/1.0E-7)^1/2 = 0.02583 ampere-meters/kg > >Thus to find the frequency of the electron you must find it's >frequency dilation which is 4.8E-11/(0.02583*9.1E-31 >kg) = 2.04E21. Thus it's world frequency is >1.7E22/2.04E21 = 8.32 Hz which the close to the same as >the "Schumann Resonance Frequency" of the cavity between >the Earth and the Ionosphere! (Ok, now writing down all the stuff I understood..."8.32 Hz which >the close to the same as >the "Schumann Resonance Frequency" of the cavity between >the Earth and the Ionosphere!" ... Done.) Frederick, when I see dense factual or mathematical information so deftly manipulated in such creative and extraordinary ways, I can only thank God you did not choose to become a lawyer or a politician. ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 13:57:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03101; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:56:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:56:17 -0800 Message-ID: <38B06379.CB70FBDD ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 14:58:20 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: <38AF6865.8ECFC81E ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> <38AF6865.8ECFC81E ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000220112115.00736034@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E-FQT.0.Nm.0C6iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 03:12 PM 2/20/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:07:03 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >>I do not know. The applied current is lower than expected but the cell > >>resistance is normal, meaning the voltage is correct but correspondingly > >>low. Except for this anomaly, all else seems normal, except the EP is much > >>too high for five points in a row. I find the high EP values hard to > believe > >>but I see no explanation. Maybe you can find a reason. > > >Sounds to me like it might have been a loose power connection resulting in a > >voltage drop, and hence low current and consequent drop in input power, > >while the thermal mass of the cell maintained the temp differential. > > Since Ed's power supply is configured for constant current, a loose > connection in the main circuit from the supply to the cell would produce a > RISE in voltage as the supply tried to maintain it's current setpoint. > > The problem seems to be something odd in the voltage and current MONITORING > circuits. If I compare sweep 1 and 3 by plotting Pout3 vs Pout1, I get a > nice straight line including the last point where the V&I misbehavior was > observed. > However, a plot of Pin3 vs Pin1 shows a distinct "kink" at the last point > with the Pin3 values looking anomalously low. This indicates that, on > sweep 3 where the problem occurred, the actual power delivered to the cell > was "correct" but the power measured was incorrect. I agree, this seems to be the best explanation. Either the DA channel had a hiccup or a memory location in the computer became corrupted. These things happen occasionally. That is why I like to take many data points so that these aberrations can be identified and ignored. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 14:02:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05568; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 14:00:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 14:00:44 -0800 Message-ID: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:02:49 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FZXNB1.0.sM1.BG6iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, the notation is on the spreadsheet which contains the raw data for Part II. Five points show an abnormally high EP which appear to be caused by a temporary defect in the measuring system. Ed Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Ed, > > > >I see a note in the new data file at hour 71.741 that says, "V and I > >reading low" > > ***{I see no such notation in any of the graphs in Ed's most recent > writeup. If there is a data file other than the file at > http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm, where is it to be > found? --MJ}*** > > , written beside 5 observations taken during sweep 3 that show > >a very large, presumably erroneous, EP. What was happening then? > > > > > > > > > > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International > > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > > Austin Texas USA 78759 > > 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 14:50:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18923; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 14:48:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 14:48:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000220174343.007e6be0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:43:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CiB3s1.0.ad4.1z6iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:02 PM 2/20/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Mitchell, the notation is on the spreadsheet which contains the raw data >for Part II. Five points show an abnormally high EP which appear to be >caused by a temporary defect in the measuring system. > >Ed First, "temporary defect in the measuring system"? If your equipment is putatively defective, where is the proof that said defect occurs -- and then stops? Second, as suggested before, use long-term measurements, multiple (location and types of) temperature measurements, good controls [including chemical controls], use more-than-adequate sampling rates, increase accuracy with multiring systems, measure noise and good shielding, and deal with energy rather than its time derivative; although power gain can be used to characterize a material and system -- if the measurements were correctly made at the optimal operating point. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz ======================================== >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >Ed, >> > >> >I see a note in the new data file at hour 71.741 that says, "V and I >> >reading low" >> >> ***{I see no such notation in any of the graphs in Ed's most recent >> writeup. If there is a data file other than the file at >> http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm, where is it to be >> found? --MJ}*** >> >> , written beside 5 observations taken during sweep 3 that show >> >a very large, presumably erroneous, EP. What was happening then? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Scott R. Little EarthTech International >> > 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 >> > Austin Texas USA 78759 >> > 512-342-2185 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 16:42:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17455; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:40:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:40:44 -0800 Message-ID: <20000221004039.23597.qmail nwcst292.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 20 Feb 00 19:40:39 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Interesting Test Setup X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----NetAddressPart-00--=_uaOn4560S92f00be8c" Resent-Message-ID: <"cptfm1.0.bG4.Bc8iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------NetAddressPart-00--=_uaOn4560S92f00be8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Vo, Do any one of you have the necessary materials to perform this simple EM = test ? See attached file (you must have unZIPer and MS-Word97 or later, to open = it) Horace P.S. Your non-experimental input is also welcomed, but please think analytical= y about it before replying... ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------NetAddressPart-00--=_uaOn4560S92f00be8c Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="MagWheatstone8.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="MagWheatstone8.zip" UEsDBBQAAgAIAEcIVShMPuW6QUMAAABmAQASAAAATWFnV2hlYXRzdG9uZTguZG9j7Jx5fBRF 2sdrJjOTSWAIl5HXRWnkkEAAk4Du6qKESSLhNuHwQuzMdJLGOeJMD5DVz7te+76+u/uH7y76 vu4riOeyux7gCSLiBYi7AiqLeLzqrq6iggIqJoYk76+e7p7p6dSYmMiCn5fu+T499VR1dVU9 9VRV9xw7d/R77861p/yN2bbzWBZra89hHovOCR40A30ZW4ODA7S1t7dz1f3gAdB+YvvBbPvu fZZdxXJcMFv/TUnLYoOmPp+xPqxmcc1ibYw2hnXYclz57IIKxvJLHcSlPibcerv1Y3t7XlKX 6b25LSQ50sGSR+t7vm3P63gcbsnhUF7nx0IcT0N9gxb9/k8ZO8x7ut4OnR6n/0N8fPhT3WMe /VQPd+XIy//+Psa+RB1f/4yxWQjvgf4kQaua9TavZ998m+HFUuby7TGu+/N/sA5tba2fufHw 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7WvMLp0we3rRjHL5+8twhiHI25j5c6rhqRnO3zKfv9M3vv5nd/8JUEsBAhQAFAACAAgARwhV KEw+5bpBQwAAAGYBABIAAAAAAAAAAAAgALaBAAAAAE1hZ1doZWF0c3RvbmU4LmRvY1BLBQYA AAAAAQABAEAAAABxQwAAAAA= ------NetAddressPart-00--=_uaOn4560S92f00be8c-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 17:48:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02222; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:46:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:46:56 -0800 Message-ID: <021501bf7c03$ef9f3dc0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <01df01bf7b9a$35441ea0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> Subject: Re: AG Stuff Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:38:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"wcvkI3.0.eY.Ga9iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Monteverde To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 1:07 PM Subject: Re: AG Stuff Rick wrote: > > Frederick, when I see dense factual or mathematical information so > deftly manipulated in such creative and extraordinary ways, I can > only thank God you did not choose to become a lawyer or a politician. > > ;) Thanks for the great idea! I'll get right on it. :-) Regards, Frederick > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 17:52:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03480; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:51:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:51:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:50:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low Resent-Message-ID: <"Oul4-.0.Is.Se9iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott said: I see a note in the new data file at hour 71.741 that says, "V and I reading low", written beside 5 observations taken during sweep 3 that show a very large, presumably erroneous, EP. I said: If there is a data file other than the file at http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm, where is it to be found? Ed said: Mitchell, the notation is on the spreadsheet which contains the raw data for Part II. My response: I should think it would be obvious that, by the above question, I was attempting to find out how I could gain access to that information. In other words, is there a URL which points to the above-described spreadsheet information? Or is this something which is available only to Scott? --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 17:59:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04759; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:57:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:57:03 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: AG Stuff Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:56:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01df01bf7b9a$35441ea0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> <021501bf7c03$ef9f3dc0$ce8e1d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <021501bf7c03$ef9f3dc0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA04723 Resent-Message-ID: <"HbghB1.0.GA1.kj9iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:38:05 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >> deftly manipulated in such creative and extraordinary ways, I can >> only thank God you did not choose to become a lawyer or a politician. >> >> ;) > >Thanks for the great idea! I'll get right on it. :-) Hi Fred, I'd elect you president any day. Unfortunately, I don't think Australian votes count, Australia not yet being a state of the US ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 18:10:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07590; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:08:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:08:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000220201011.0074805c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:10:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3FJm43.0.Qs1.uu9iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:29 PM 2/20/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:> >***{I see no such notation in any of the graphs in Ed's most recent >writeup. If there is a data file other than the file at >http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm, where is it to be >found? --MJ}*** Go to this web address: http://www.mindspring.com/~jedrothwell/ You should see the following listing: Parent Directory 28-Jan-2000 13:39 - Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:48 1.4M Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:13 247k Active-Pt.zip 29-Jan-2000 17:13 363k Cell in insulation.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:43 71k Data, Part II 18-Feb-2000 15:59 409k Fig 1.jpg 18-Feb-2000 15:51 43k Fig 2.jpg 18-Feb-2000 15:51 33k Fig 3.jpg 18-Feb-2000 15:51 30k Fig 4.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 46k Fig 5.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 29k Mizuno-photos.htm 28-Jan-2000 16:43 1k Part 2, Fig 1.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 11k Part 2, Fig 1.jpg 18-Feb-2000 13:41 23k Part 2, Fig 2.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 5k Part 2, Fig 3.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 11k Part 2, Fig 4.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 10k Part 2, Fig 5.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 13k Part 2, Fig 6.GIF 18-Feb-2000 15:52 26k Pt-energy.htm 18-Feb-2000 15:52 10k Pt-energy2.htm 18-Feb-2000 15:52 12k Unused cathode in ce..> 28-Jan-2000 16:44 419k Unused cathodes.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:44 53k Used cathode.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:44 368k Click on the "Data, Part II" and you will receive the new data file which is a Mac Excel 5.0 file that can be opened nicely with Excel 97 on a PC. Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 18:15:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08979; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:14:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:14:42 -0800 Message-ID: <20000221021434.21181.qmail nw173.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 20 Feb 00 21:14:34 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting Test Setup X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA08958 Resent-Message-ID: <"XXwPW1.0.DC2.H-9iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the previously attached file MagWheatstone8.doc the labels R4 and R3 on the ferrite ring in Setup1 were accidentaly substituted. I apologize. Assuming ideal components, the question with these systems is... As the ferrite-fragment R5 it is being removed, the attraction force on the fragment is: a) smaller if the coil is shorted ? b) smaller if the coil is open ? What about the total work (dX.dF) needed to remove the fragment R5 as the coil is closed vs. open coil? Horace wrote: > Dear Vo, > > Do any one of you have the necessary materials to perform this simple EM test > ? > > See attached file (you must have unZIPer and MS-Word97 or later, to open it) > > > Horace > P.S. > Your non-experimental input is also welcomed, but please think analyticaly about it before replying... > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > --------------------------------------------- > Attachment: MagWheatstone8.zip > MIME Type: application/x-zip-compressed > --------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 19:47:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01813; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:46:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:46:01 -0800 Message-ID: <38B0B576.2B67358F ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:48:09 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cb3N22.0.DS.uJBiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No, anyone can see the data. Go to http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com, look down the list, and click on Data, Part II. Ed Mitchell Jones wrote: > Scott said: > > I see a note in the new data file at hour 71.741 that says, "V and I > reading low", written beside 5 observations taken during sweep 3 that show > a very large, presumably erroneous, EP. > > I said: > > If there is a data file other than the file at > http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com/Pt-energy2.htm, where is it to be > found? > > Ed said: > > Mitchell, the notation is on the spreadsheet which contains the raw data > for Part II. > > My response: > > I should think it would be obvious that, by the above question, I was > attempting to find out how I could gain access to that information. In > other words, is there a URL which points to the above-described spreadsheet > information? Or is this something which is available only to Scott? > > --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 20:03:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06494; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:02:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:02:03 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:01:23 EST Subject: Re: Cathode materials To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"EmPY02.0.Kb1.wYBiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/05/2000 10:12:36 AM, Ed Storms wrote: << Certain batches have a much high success rate than others. These "good" batches seem to have low oxygen and carbon contents but may be impure with respect to other metals.>> Didn't Jed say a while back that Martin Fleischmann went to great lengths to avoid any impurities in his palladium cathodes, because, according to Fleischmann as reported by Jed, the best palladium was the purest palladium? Fleischmann had the most success with palladium, and it seems to me that his experience argues strongly against the view that impurities in the palladium might improve the production of excess heat. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 22:51:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15546; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:50:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:50:59 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:50:22 EST Subject: BlackLIghtPower Patent To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bh6D11.0.ho3.I1Eiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Reposted from SPF feed: Subject: Dow Jones BlackLight Power patent story From: hudpad aol.com (Hudpad) Date: 21 Feb 2000 05:00:46 GMT U.S. Grants Patent On Novel Hydrogen Energy Source (Dow Jones) By Erik Baard NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--The U.S. this week granted a patent covering a researcher's claim of finding a way to release energy by "shrinking" the hydrogen atom. However, critics in the scientific community say this is an example of a patent being granted to "crank" science. The patent, number 6,024,935 covering "lower-energy hydrogen methods and structure," was granted by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office Tuesday. The issuance "marks a historic event in the field of energy production," said Jeffrey S. Melcher, a patent lawyer representing the energy inventions of Randell L. Mills. Mills, founder of privately-held BlackLight Power Inc. of Cranbury, New Jersey, has argued that the electron orbit of hydrogen can be lowered through a chemical process, giving off ultraviolet light. The assertion flies in the face of mainstream quantum theory. "By issuing this patent, the Patent Office has recognized that Dr. Mills' energy cell and method of extracting energy from hydrogen has utility and is novel over conventional methods of producing energy," Melcher said. "In securing his patent rights, Mills presented to the Patent Office overwhelming evidence that his energy cell and method provide an unlimited source of power never before contemplated." A patent issuance doesn't close the debate on whether a technology works, but it confers a "presumption of validity." Critics would have to prove "to a pretty high burden of evidence" that the patent doesn't represent a real phenomenon, Melcher added. "This is more fundamental than the light bulb or the internal combustion engine," claimed Mills, a Harvard-trained medical doctor who has done additional studies at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. BlackLight Power counts among its backers electric utilities Conectiv (CIV) and PacifiCorp, a unit of Scottish Power PLC (SPI). Shelby Brewer, a nuclear engineer who served as chairman and chief executive of ABB Combustion Engineering and as a Department of Energy official during the Reagan administration, is a director of BlackLight Power. The company said it plans an initial public offering of stock this year. Skeptics were unconvinced by the patent. "A patent means nothing. It carries no weight as scientific validation," said Paul Grant, a researcher at Electric Power Research Institute, a non-profit industry think tank for new technologies. "I am shocked that they issued a patent on this," said Robert Park, a spokesman for the American Physical Society. The U.S. has in recent years recognized crank science with patents, according to Park, and "this indicates that the troubles at the patent office continue." Nobel laureates in theoretical physics have blasted Mills' concept as impossible. Park likened BlackLight Power's energy process to "a perpetual motion machine." A spokeswoman for the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office dismissed that characterization. "We do not give patents on perpetual motion machines," said Brigid Quinn. "That this was granted a patent means it met the criteria that it is new, useful, and non-obvious, and fully disclosed as to how it works." According to Mills, numerous independent laboratories have confirmed his results, and he will publish three papers explaining his methods in academic journals, including the International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, and Fusion Technology, which is the journal of the American Nuclear Society. As reported, Mills last October presented his findings at a meeting of the American Chemical Society. At that meeting, Johannes Conrads, retired director of the Institute for Low Temperature Plasma Physics at the Ernst Moritz Arndt University in Greifswald, Germany, confirmed he detected an "astonishing" energy release from a BlackLight Power cell. Water is introduced into a Blacklight Power cell and electrically and catalytically broken down into oxygen and hydrogen atoms. Mills claims that inside BlackLight Power's energy cells is a potassium catalyst that induces the hydrogen electrons to drop to lower orbits, creating hydrogen atoms with smaller radii, which he calls "hydrinos." The process is continued by reactions among hydrinos themselves, he added. Heat produced by the hydrino reaction can build pressure to turn turbines that generate electricity, Mills explained. Mills adds that the process also produces plasma (a hot, glowing ionized gas), without adding great amounts of heat, microwave energy, or electricity as required by other means of making plasmas. BlackLight Power is currently investigating what it believes is a unique means of converting plasma directly into electricity, which would render turbines obsolete, Mills claimed. If the plasma-to-electricity converter works, a five kilowatt residential generating cell could be marketed for $1,500, Mills claimed. That would significantly underprice smaller, but proven, prototype fuel cells not yet on the market, noted Paul Cole, a utility analyst with ABN-AMRO Inc. in New York. Stock prices for fuel cell and battery manufacturers have rocketed in recent months, Cole said. "We have essentially no choice but to watch these companies," he said, "and this sounds utterly fascinating." Cole described the three immediate markets awaiting on-site forms of alternative energy: residences, peaking commercial and industrial demand, and distributed generation. Carbon is the base element of the petroleum industry, both in fuels and synthetic fibers. Mills claimed hydrinos combine with other materials to form novel compounds, and could act as the equivalent of a new base element. BlackLight Power claims it has produced compounds with potential as coatings, explosives, and batteries. The company also claims to have produced conductive plastics that could be used as magnetic storage media. Six patents on those items are expected soon, claimed patent attorney Melcher. "The company is currently in discussions with several firms. It expects to sign one or more licensing agreements in the second quarter as well, establishing at least one strategic alliance with a customer for BlackLight's novel chemical compounds," Mills claimed. -By Erik Baard, Dow Jones Newswires (END) DOW JONES NEWS 02-18-00 02:09 PM From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 00:21:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA00320; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:20:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:20:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20000221082045.7959.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:20:45 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: d + p fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"UHbM7.0.q4.TLFiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper wrote: > Michael, is there a web page that lists cross sections for fusion > reactions, > preferably including solar and stellar ones like p + p --> d + positron + > neutrino (assuming I've got that one right)? You got the reaction right. The energy yield is 0.42 MeV. This reaction is the first step in stellar fusion. I don't know any web site with the data you want. It's probably out there, but I'm not very web savvy. Whatever it is, the cross section has to be VERY small. Otherwise, all that p in Sun would have burned up LONG ago, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 06:38:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18897; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 06:36:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 06:36:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000221083644.013550f8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:36:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000220174343.007e6be0 world.std.com> References: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ScRrb1.0.7d4.krKiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:43 PM 2/20/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > First, "temporary defect in the measuring system"? > If your equipment is putatively defective, where >is the proof that said defect occurs -- and then stops? This issue can be addressed significantly by examining the available data. Ed has programmed his computer-controlled calorimeter system to perform "current sweeps" in which the cell current is stepped up to 3 A over a period of many hours and then stepped back down again. At each step 5 observations are taken after the calorimeter has equilibrated at that current level. For all of the sweeps, including those which do and those which do not show an EP signal, the measured current at each of these 5 data points is precisely the same...with the sole exception of the 5 observations taken at the 3 A level in sweep 3. That's a little confusing. Let me show you what I'm talking about. The 5 current measurements from the before-highest step in sweep 1 2.506 2.506 2.506 2.506 2.506 The 5 current measurements from the highest step in sweep 1 3.006 3.006 3.006 3.006 3.006 The 5 current measurements from the after-highest step in sweep 1 2.128 2.128 2.128 2.129 2.128 The 5 current measurements from the before-highest step in sweep 3 2.506 2.506 2.506 2.506 The 5 current measurements from the highest step in sweep 3 2.89 2.883 2.873 Here's where the mysterious problem occurs 2.87 2.863 The 5 current measurements from the after-highest step in sweep 1 2.129 2.129 2.129 2.129 2.129 As has been discussed, even though the current measurement values look too low and erratic at the highest step in sweep 3, the ratio of cell voltage to cell current looks stable and correct for each of those 5 observations!!!! I am still trying to imagine a scenario to explain this peculiar occurrence. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 07:16:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29621; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:09:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:09:34 -0800 Message-ID: <38B155AC.106D0D52 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:11:42 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lmp7X3.0.lE7.jKLiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some confusion exists on this subject. While efforts are made to avoid certain impurities, some are unavoidable. For example, boron is used to remove oxygen. Consequently, if efforts are made to reduce oxygen, the boron content goes up. This is OK because boron seems to be good while oxygen seems to be bad. Unfortunately, oxygen content is hard to determine and is frequently ignored. McKubre found that the purest Pd was dead and his best material contained significant impurity, must of which was probably without effect. Fleischmann has yet to release any data in this regard other than some general statements. The subject is complex, more complex than Fleischmann understands. Some impurities weaken the lattice leading to cracking and some impurities stabilize the nuclear-active-state. The details of this interaction have not been discovered. Ed Storms Tstolper aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 02/05/2000 10:12:36 AM, Ed Storms wrote: > > << Certain batches have a much high success rate than others. These "good" > batches seem to have low oxygen and carbon contents but may be impure with > respect to other metals.>> > > Didn't Jed say a while back that Martin Fleischmann went to great lengths to > avoid any impurities in his palladium cathodes, because, according to > Fleischmann as reported by Jed, the best palladium was the purest palladium? > Fleischmann had the most success with palladium, and it seems to me that his > experience argues strongly against the view that impurities in the palladium > might improve the production of excess heat. > > Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 07:23:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18620; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:21:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:21:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000221102057.007a1db0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:20:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000220201011.0074805c mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000219170155.006e4a48 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uVVGH1.0.rY4.tVLiu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Parent Directory 28-Jan-2000 13:39 - > Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:48 1.4M > Active-Pt-quattro-pr..> 29-Jan-2000 17:13 247k > Active-Pt.zip 29-Jan-2000 17:13 363k > Cell in insulation.jpg 28-Jan-2000 16:43 71k > Data, Part II 18-Feb-2000 15:59 409k <-- This one is the spreadsheet for part two. It did not have a filename extension, and I was not sure what it should be, so I uploaded it as received. The directory is getting a bit cluttered. Maybe I should pull out the Mizuno photos, or install and Index. An index drives the user automatically to display screen (menu or what-have-you). I prefer to leave it up to the user, but it may be getting confusing. If Fleischmann lets me post some of his stuff I will have to organize it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 07:23:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18602; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:21:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:21:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38B15863.B215EC07 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:23:18 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000221083644.013550f8@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uiX_E2.0.TY4.pVLiu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One possible explanation is that the power supply, which is driven by a signal from the computer, was told to produce the lower current because of a temporary defect. The DA circuits subsequently measured this lower current and voltage correctly. And then for reasons Swartz would support, the cell produced an amazing burst of extra energy. While this might be the case, I would like to see this happen several more times before I get too excited. Ed Scott Little wrote: > At 05:43 PM 2/20/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > First, "temporary defect in the measuring system"? > > If your equipment is putatively defective, where > >is the proof that said defect occurs -- and then stops? > > This issue can be addressed significantly by examining the available data. > Ed has programmed his computer-controlled calorimeter system to perform > "current sweeps" in which the cell current is stepped up to 3 A over a > period of many hours and then stepped back down again. At each step 5 > observations are taken after the calorimeter has equilibrated at that > current level. For all of the sweeps, including those which do and those > which do not show an EP signal, the measured current at each of these 5 > data points is precisely the same...with the sole exception of the 5 > observations taken at the 3 A level in sweep 3. > > That's a little confusing. Let me show you what I'm talking about. > > The 5 current measurements from the before-highest step in sweep 1 > 2.506 > 2.506 > 2.506 > 2.506 > 2.506 > The 5 current measurements from the highest step in sweep 1 > 3.006 > 3.006 > 3.006 > 3.006 > 3.006 > The 5 current measurements from the after-highest step in sweep 1 > 2.128 > 2.128 > 2.128 > 2.129 > 2.128 > > The 5 current measurements from the before-highest step in sweep 3 > 2.506 > 2.506 > 2.506 > 2.506 > The 5 current measurements from the highest step in sweep 3 > 2.89 > 2.883 > 2.873 Here's where the mysterious problem occurs > 2.87 > 2.863 > The 5 current measurements from the after-highest step in sweep 1 > 2.129 > 2.129 > 2.129 > 2.129 > 2.129 > > As has been discussed, even though the current measurement values look too > low and erratic at the highest step in sweep 3, the ratio of cell voltage > to cell current looks stable and correct for each of those 5 observations!!!! > > I am still trying to imagine a scenario to explain this peculiar occurrence. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 07:30:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06040; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:27:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:27:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000221102706.007a9320 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:27:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cathode materials In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qgmZD3.0.EU1.XbLiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: >Didn't Jed say a while back that Martin Fleischmann went to great lengths to >avoid any impurities in his palladium cathodes, because, according to >Fleischmann as reported by Jed, the best palladium was the purest palladium? No, I do not recall he ever said that. Seventy years ago, Johnson-Matthey discovered how to make palladium filters that would stand up to high loading without cracking. The material they discovered make the best CF cathodes. It is free of some impurities, particularly carbon and oxygen I believe, but it may not be particularly free of other kinds. It is uniformly strong throughout, although I do not know that it is as strong as palladium can be. Fleischmann designated this particular variety "Type A." The statistics from Miles and others show that it is far superior to any other source, both in reproducibility and in the ratio of input power to output heat. Presumably, if Ed Storms could subject samples of this material to his tests for excess expansion and cracking, he would find it superior. Unfortunately, the product was discontinued many years ago, and no one knows whether the replacement product would work as well. In general, any metal from Johnson Matthey works better than metal samples from other suppliers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 08:12:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA18528; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:09:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:09:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000221110306.007e4bb0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:03:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <38B15863.B215EC07 ix.netcom.com> References: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000221083644.013550f8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jTR0D3.0.QX4.RCMiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:23 AM 2/21/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >One possible explanation is that the power supply, which is driven by a signal >from the computer, was told to produce the lower current because of a temporary >defect. The DA circuits subsequently measured this lower current and voltage >correctly. And then for reasons Swartz would support, the cell produced an >amazing burst of extra energy. While this might be the case, I would like to >see this happen several more times before I get too excited. > >Ed Not sure what reasons I "would support", but I do not believe excess heat occurs in platinum as a cathode; except for a very low level by surface contamination -- as I presented at the 2nd Int Conf on LENR, which you attended Ed. The only one excited about such low-level data is yourself, Ed; and it was suggested how you, and other vorts, might improve the reliability of your information, including by noise power measurement. Which computer-controlled current source are using, Ed? Mitchell Swartz >Scott Little wrote: > >> At 05:43 PM 2/20/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> >> > First, "temporary defect in the measuring system"? >> > If your equipment is putatively defective, where >> >is the proof that said defect occurs -- and then stops? >> >> This issue can be addressed significantly by examining the available data. >> Ed has programmed his computer-controlled calorimeter system to perform >> "current sweeps" in which the cell current is stepped up to 3 A over a >> period of many hours and then stepped back down again. At each step 5 >> observations are taken after the calorimeter has equilibrated at that >> current level. For all of the sweeps, including those which do and those >> which do not show an EP signal, the measured current at each of these 5 >> data points is precisely the same...with the sole exception of the 5 >> observations taken at the 3 A level in sweep 3. >> >> That's a little confusing. Let me show you what I'm talking about. >> >> The 5 current measurements from the before-highest step in sweep 1 >> 2.506 >> 2.506 >> 2.506 >> 2.506 >> 2.506 >> The 5 current measurements from the highest step in sweep 1 >> 3.006 >> 3.006 >> 3.006 >> 3.006 >> 3.006 >> The 5 current measurements from the after-highest step in sweep 1 >> 2.128 >> 2.128 >> 2.128 >> 2.129 >> 2.128 >> >> The 5 current measurements from the before-highest step in sweep 3 >> 2.506 >> 2.506 >> 2.506 >> 2.506 >> The 5 current measurements from the highest step in sweep 3 >> 2.89 >> 2.883 >> 2.873 Here's where the mysterious problem occurs >> 2.87 >> 2.863 >> The 5 current measurements from the after-highest step in sweep 1 >> 2.129 >> 2.129 >> 2.129 >> 2.129 >> 2.129 >> >> As has been discussed, even though the current measurement values look too >> low and erratic at the highest step in sweep 3, the ratio of cell voltage >> to cell current looks stable and correct for each of those 5 observations!!!! >> >> I am still trying to imagine a scenario to explain this peculiar occurrence. >> >> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 08:13:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA20001; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:13:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:13:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000221110711.007e7dc0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:07:11 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cathode materials In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000221102706.007a9320 pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"SbNmo.0.Ru4.BGMiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:27 AM 2/21/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Tstolper aol.com wrote: > >>Didn't Jed say a while back that Martin Fleischmann went to great lengths to >>avoid any impurities in his palladium cathodes, because, according to >>Fleischmann as reported by Jed, the best palladium was the purest palladium? > >No, I do not recall he ever said that. The info on optimal alloys was covered in the very early issues of the Cold Fusion Times http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Pure palladium was not necessarily optimal. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 08:26:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24305; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:25:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:25:31 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:36:48 -0500 Message-ID: <20000221163648093.AAA188 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3LUcs3.0.gx5.wRMiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Along with the small group expressing their appreciation to Frederick Sparber for so patiently and consistently presenting the most complete and coherent mathmatical explanation for the Universe that I've ever seen, I would like to add my own voice. Fred has layed everything out so plainly that a moron could understand it, and the only reason it has taken so long for me to understand it myself I guess, is that I'm just not your average moron. What is evident though, and what will be most interesting in the upcoming months, is the fact the Randall Mills has presented a different theoretical model for the Universe that is at odds with what is already presented, taught, and successfully used by the vast majority of the scientific and engineering communities today. Mills has patents now that utilize his explanation for some phenomena that have already been fully explained by the current paradigm, but just not engineered until now. The advancements in experimental results brought about by Mills' own, very commendable efforts that are novel can also be explained by Sparber's math, as well as all of what Mills has claimed to have speculated on, but not had time to engineer into proof. Superluminal speeds, anti-gravity, room temperature superconduction, the massive number of new materials proposed, and so forth are examples. In fact, if you get a glimpse of what Fred has been winging our way for the past couple of years, it is mindboggling what the possibilities are. Mills has just scratched the surface for claiming weird new stuff that look very much possible in engineering terms. I've been looking at scalar explanations, and Fred's proposals concurrently, lately. The phenomena attributed to ZPE, the Casimir Effect, cavitation, cold fusion, and other theoretical models can be more easily understood and engineered for, I think, by using Fred's math, along with the scalar model. In particular, the Fine Structure Constant appears to be something that can be utilized better in our future designs for experimental devices. Electrostatics and tunneling can be more readily visualized and engineered using these modeling tools. In short, I would not entirely throw away the math that has served us so well and for so long for a new model that so far, has yet to say anything new. Mills has explained things in a new way using some new language, and showed us some new engineering tricks, but those same tricks could have been performed by any one of us who truly understood Physics and Chemistry as well as Frederick Sparber does. Like I said, things will be quite interesting in the near future. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 08:33:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26589; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:32:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:32:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000221103218.0134e394 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:32:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <38B15863.B215EC07 ix.netcom.com> References: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000221083644.013550f8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ITJht2.0.IV6.5YMiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:23 AM 2/21/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >One possible explanation is that the power supply, which is driven by a signal >from the computer, was told to produce the lower current because of a temporary >defect. The DA circuits subsequently measured this lower current and voltage >correctly. And then for reasons Swartz would support, the cell produced an >amazing burst of extra energy. While this might be the case, I would like to >see this happen several more times before I get too excited. There is substantial evidence in the data that this is not the case. If you plot Pout from sweep 3 vs Pout from sweep 1, you will see a very straight line. This suggests that, at the highest current step in sweep 3, the cell was producing an amount of heat power precisely proportional to the way it behaved in sweep 1. Now plot Pin from sweep 3 vs Pin from sweep 1. The result is a very straight line EXCEPT for the last point, where the measured Pin was apparently too low in sweep 3. The large EP signal (Pout minus Pin) observed for the highest current step in sweep 3 is therefore apparently due only to undermeasurement of the input power...not to a real production of excess heat output power. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 11:15:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18772; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:12:12 -0800 Message-ID: <38B18E83.9C241A26 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:14:14 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000221083644.013550f8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000221103218.0134e394@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vH1yS1.0.Ab4.BuOiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good point. But this would mean that the math subroutine had a failure when it calculated V*I for only these five points. Actually six points because the program calculates an additional point which is plotted on the computer screen in real time but not saved. This point also showed the same effect. The plot thickens. Ed Scott Little wrote: > At 08:23 AM 2/21/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >One possible explanation is that the power supply, which is driven by a > signal > >from the computer, was told to produce the lower current because of a > temporary > >defect. The DA circuits subsequently measured this lower current and voltage > >correctly. And then for reasons Swartz would support, the cell produced an > >amazing burst of extra energy. While this might be the case, I would like to > >see this happen several more times before I get too excited. > > There is substantial evidence in the data that this is not the case. If > you plot Pout from sweep 3 vs Pout from sweep 1, you will see a very > straight line. This suggests that, at the highest current step in sweep 3, > the cell was producing an amount of heat power precisely proportional to > the way it behaved in sweep 1. > > Now plot Pin from sweep 3 vs Pin from sweep 1. The result is a very > straight line EXCEPT for the last point, where the measured Pin was > apparently too low in sweep 3. > > The large EP signal (Pout minus Pin) observed for the highest current step > in sweep 3 is therefore apparently due only to undermeasurement of the > input power...not to a real production of excess heat output power. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 11:26:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24126; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:24:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:24:36 -0800 Message-ID: <38B1916E.1FA199E6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:26:42 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000221083644.013550f8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000221110306.007e4bb0@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FdwhO3.0.qu5.o3Piu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 08:23 AM 2/21/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > >One possible explanation is that the power supply, which is driven by a > signal > >from the computer, was told to produce the lower current because of a > temporary > >defect. The DA circuits subsequently measured this lower current and voltage > >correctly. And then for reasons Swartz would support, the cell produced an > >amazing burst of extra energy. While this might be the case, I would like to > >see this happen several more times before I get too excited. > > > >Ed > > Not sure what reasons I "would support", but I do not You believe in OOPs. This observation would appear to show a OOP at a current which had not been applied before. > > believe excess heat occurs in platinum as a cathode; except > for a very low level by surface contamination -- as I presented Of course the heat is caused by surface contamination. But the heat obtained using Pd, Ti and Au might be caused by the same thing. At this point, we do not know what makes the nuclear-active-state (NAS). > > at the 2nd Int Conf on LENR, which you attended Ed. > The only one excited about such low-level data is yourself, Ed; I would think anyone would get excited by any anomalous energy which could be proven to be real. In addition, if Pt can host the NAS, then explanations previously based on Pd need to be modified. > > and it was suggested how you, and other vorts, might improve > the reliability of your information, including by noise power > measurement. This has been done. > > Which computer-controlled current source are using, Ed? The NB-MIO-16 board puts out a voltage which can be changed using the software. This is applied to a Kepco power supply which can be controlled by this voltage. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 12:04:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00574; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:56:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:56:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:55:51 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <38B18E83.9C241A26 ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lgmJ_3.0.m8.mXPiu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Does your system take a continuous series of data points over time during the experiment, or only take selected points when you are interested in the data at that moment? Taking a continuous series of points allows you to determine the "noise" properties of your overall data collection system, and to determine when it gets "out of control" in a process control sense. The data Scott showed seems much more noise-like during this one instance in the third set. Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 12:26:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15314; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:22:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:22:30 -0800 Message-ID: <38B19F00.7583C052 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:24:40 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IB-pf2.0.6l3.5wPiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Two kinds of data are taken. Points are taken and plotted every minute. About every 15 min, a better data set (more points are averaged) is taken and these are recorded. The points in question showed up in both data sets. In every other respect, the system appeared to be normal at that time. Ed hank scudder wrote: > Ed > Does your system take a continuous series of data points > over time during the experiment, or only take selected points when you are > interested in the data at that moment? Taking a continuous series of > points allows you to determine the "noise" properties of your overall data > collection system, and to determine when it gets "out of control" in a > process control sense. The data Scott showed seems much more noise-like > during this one instance in the third set. > > Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 12:47:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24959; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:44:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:44:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000221144440.013533a8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:44:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: heat coupling medium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WG0Zj2.0.u56.uEQiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For certain applications in flow calorimetry, it is desirable to achieve a high thermal coupling between the DUT (device under test) and the heat exchanger. I have used water effectively for this coupling but not all DUT's can tolerate immersion in water. Oil is certainly a possibility but....what a mess! It would be nice to have a granular material with relatively low heat capacity and good thermal conductivity for "dry" coupling. Ideally, this material would be a good electrical insulator as well so it could be poured around an electrical DUT without fear of creating short circuits. Any suggestions? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 13:01:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31011; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:57:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:57:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000221155716.0079fd50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:57:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: heat coupling medium In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000221144440.013533a8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oo2F-1.0.Ma7.CRQiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >For certain applications in flow calorimetry, it is desirable to achieve a >high thermal coupling . . . >Oil is certainly a possibility but....what a mess! Yuch. People put temperature probes in small, glass encased oil baths, but you are talking about a lot of oil. This is not the answer, but people use crunched-up balls of aluminum foil around the cell. Miles says that gave him a higher temperature change per watt compared to water, which means adecreased thermal coupling. I wonder if there is not something similar, with metal foil or shavings, or one of these copper scouring pads. I have never tested their conductivity. Chips and scouring-pads make dandy hydrides, because they have such a large surface area. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 13:42:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15593; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:39:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000221163446.007ee100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:34:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <38B1916E.1FA199E6 ix.netcom.com> References: <38B06486.CD6F45A7 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000221083644.013550f8 mail.eden.com> <3.0.6.32.20000221110306.007e4bb0 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wxlxW2.0.Zp3.f2Riu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:26 PM 2/21/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> At 08:23 AM 2/21/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >> >One possible explanation is that the power supply, which is driven by a >> signal >> >from the computer, was told to produce the lower current because of a >> temporary >> >defect. The DA circuits subsequently measured this lower current and voltage >> >correctly. And then for reasons Swartz would support, the cell produced an >> >amazing burst of extra energy. While this might be the case, I would like to >> >see this happen several more times before I get too excited. >> > >> >Ed >> >> Not sure what reasons I "would support", but I do not > >You believe in OOPs. This observation would appear to show a OOP at a current >which had not been applied before. Ed: We measure and observe optimal operating points. They have been insignificant for platinum, which has scatter above and below "unity gain" if it contaminated. I dont understand the basis of your second sentence, or its relation to those above. =================================================== >> believe excess heat occurs in platinum as a cathode; except >> for a very low level by surface contamination -- as I presented > >Of course the heat is caused by surface contamination.But the heat obtained >using Pd, Ti and Au might be caused by the same thing.At this point, we do not >know what makes the nuclear-active-state (NAS). The excess heat is caused by reactions within the surface contamination. There is no NAS, but Pd, Ti, and Ni do show excess heat when loaded, and when the OOP-method used. Platinum is negligible even when contaminated, similar to most fibrex nickels in light water systems. =================================================== >> at the 2nd Int Conf on LENR, which you attended Ed. >> The only one excited about such low-level data is yourself, Ed; > >I would think anyone would get excited by any anomalous energy which could be >proven to be real. In addition, if Pt can host the NAS, then explanations >previously based on Pd need to be modified. The scatter was below and above the unity gain line. We want high delta-Ts, and Pt does not load, and does not produce a good output. Good luck proving otherwise. ;-)X =================================================== >> and it was suggested how you, and other vorts, might improve >> the reliability of your information, including by noise power >> measurement. > >This has been done. Perhaps. Without redundant DAQ systems, redundant temperature measurements, fast data sampling rates, cooling curves, and measurement of noise, the information is less useful, than with. =================================================== >> Which computer-controlled current source are using, Ed? > >The NB-MIO-16 board puts out a voltage which can be changed using the software. >This is applied to a Kepco power supply which can be controlled by this voltage. > >Ed You are applying the output directly to the Kepco? Which model, and why not an isolation (eg through an electrometer)? and how have you ruled out cross-talk? Best wishes. Mitchell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 14:25:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29803; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:23:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:23:23 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <37.1a95993.25e314a5 aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:22:29 EST Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"CVcKA2.0.bH7.RhRiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, Thanks for posting the February 18 Dow Jones Newswire story by Erik Baard. Is there any discussion on SPF that's worth following? Do any of the physicists or chemists or electrical engineers on that newsgroup show any signs of understanding Mills' work? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 14:58:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14485; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:55:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:55:37 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:54:45 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7fg3bs4qcjoac0261e3in47ld6a19fb8it 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000221144440.013533a8 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000221144440.013533a8 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA14382 Resent-Message-ID: <"tl4fB2.0.7Y3.c9Siu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:44:40 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >It would be nice to have a granular material with relatively low heat >capacity and good thermal conductivity for "dry" coupling. Ideally, this >material would be a good electrical insulator as well so it could be poured >around an electrical DUT without fear of creating short circuits. > >Any suggestions? [snip] I can think of only one substance - beryllium oxide. Problem is, that ASAIK it is highly toxic. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 15:18:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19131; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:16:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:16:19 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLIghtPower Patent Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:15:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5mh3bs03ov8mspmjpnb2c2f0lo54faoqv3 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA19071 Resent-Message-ID: <"1zyTz1.0.ng4.2TSiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:50:22 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: [snip] > "I am shocked that they issued a patent on this," said Robert Park, a >spokesman for the American Physical Society. [snip] Could one possibly wish for a higher accolade than to be condemned by this man? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 15:39:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25623; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:37:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:37:24 -0800 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:42:33 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Free energy.. PROVEN....Re: BlackLIghtPower Patent In-Reply-To: <5mh3bs03ov8mspmjpnb2c2f0lo54faoqv3 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wHSX5.0.HG6.pmSiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This BLP works SO well that Parks got shocked just by reading about it! Now THAT is voltage! On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:50:22 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > [snip] > > "I am shocked that they issued a patent on this," said Robert Park, a > >spokesman for the American Physical Society. > [snip] > Could one possibly wish for a higher accolade than to be condemned by this > man? > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 15:39:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25876; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:38:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:38:31 -0800 Message-ID: <38B1CB7D.A3D82CE4 groupz.net> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:34:21 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: heat coupling medium References: <3.0.1.32.20000221144440.013533a8 mail.eden.com> <7fg3bs4qcjoac0261e3in47ld6a19fb8it@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aOM3d1.0.AK6.tnSiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Diamond...????.....steve Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:44:40 -0600, Scott Little wrote: > [snip] > >It would be nice to have a granular material with relatively low heat > >capacity and good thermal conductivity for "dry" coupling. Ideally, this > >material would be a good electrical insulator as well so it could be poured > >around an electrical DUT without fear of creating short circuits. > > > >Any suggestions? > [snip] > I can think of only one substance - beryllium oxide. Problem is, that ASAIK > it is highly toxic. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 15:44:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28394; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:43:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:43:25 -0800 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:42:59 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low In-Reply-To: <38B19F00.7583C052 ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"21PGI1.0.Zx6.SsSiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed It seems to me that the question that needs answering here is: Did the data of that period of time represent a special piece of physics or chemistry, or was there some spurius data due to something peculiar happening in the data collection system? From your answer, I gather you think it was the former because the anomaly appeared in both data sets. In industrial quality control, one often takes a continuous moving average type of calculation of both the mean and the standard deviation of the output to create a control chart for the process. The theory being that ALL measurement systems have an inherent randomness that is typical of the process and measuring instruments, and that information is obtained about the process when changes occur outside of statistical boundries like three-sigma (for a .001 probability if we are talking about gaussian processes). If the raw A/D measurements you are taking are available, you could go back through them, and do an analysis like this, to look at the stability of things. You can measure "noise", by subtracting a constant, or a linear fit, or parabolic, or exponential, or whatever seems appropriate for the data at a given moment and determining the "residual" as a function of time. Do this for a short averaging period compared with the longer term underlying time function you are trying to determine, and you can create your own process control chart. It is easy to suggest more work for you, isn't it :>} Keep up the good work, it is nice to see real work being done and reported. Hank On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > Two kinds of data are taken. Points are taken and plotted every minute. > About every 15 min, a better data set (more points are averaged) is taken and > these are recorded. The points in question showed up in both data sets. In > every other respect, the system appeared to be normal at that time. > > Ed > > hank scudder wrote: > > > Ed > > Does your system take a continuous series of data points > > over time during the experiment, or only take selected points when you are > > interested in the data at that moment? Taking a continuous series of > > points allows you to determine the "noise" properties of your overall data > > collection system, and to determine when it gets "out of control" in a > > process control sense. The data Scott showed seems much more noise-like > > during this one instance in the third set. > > > > Hank > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 15:51:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31574; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:50:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:50:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:50:12 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: heat coupling medium In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000221144440.013533a8 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Dskjn2.0.Gj7.CzSiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Try some clean dry sand. I have recently bought a superconductivity kit from Colorado Superconductivity Corp, and that is what they use in their kit. Mostly tiny pebbles between an eighth and a sixteenth of an inch. They use it to store "lack of heat" around the SC when the liquid nitrogen is poured in, to make it last long enough to measure the resistance and magnetic effects, etc. Hank On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Scott Little wrote: > For certain applications in flow calorimetry, it is desirable to achieve a > high thermal coupling between the DUT (device under test) and the heat > exchanger. I have used water effectively for this coupling but not all > DUT's can tolerate immersion in water. > > Oil is certainly a possibility but....what a mess! > > It would be nice to have a granular material with relatively low heat > capacity and good thermal conductivity for "dry" coupling. Ideally, this > material would be a good electrical insulator as well so it could be poured > around an electrical DUT without fear of creating short circuits. > > Any suggestions? > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 16:12:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05432; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:10:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:10:20 -0800 Message-ID: <38B1D466.E8DECE77 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:12:45 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Storms II, V&I low References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BjmuG1.0.oK1.hFTiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, as you note, all data has a random variation. You can see this in the published A/D data available on http://jedrothwell.home.mindspring.com. However, the 5 points in discussion are far outside of this random spread. The question is, "what happened at this time to produce such a large apparent EP?" The effect is definitely not random. While this problem is interesting, it is not the main issue. The main issue is the repeated production of EP from this sample. Ed hank scudder wrote: > Ed > It seems to me that the question that needs answering here is: Did > the data of that period of time represent a special piece of physics or > chemistry, or was there some spurius data due to something peculiar > happening in the data collection system? From your answer, I gather you > think it was the former because the anomaly appeared in both data sets. In > industrial quality control, one often takes a continuous moving average > type of calculation of both the mean and the standard deviation of the > output to create a control chart for the process. The theory being that > ALL measurement systems have an inherent randomness that is typical of the > process and measuring instruments, and that information is obtained about > the process when changes occur outside of statistical boundries like > three-sigma (for a .001 probability if we are talking about gaussian > processes). If the raw A/D measurements you are taking are available, you > could go back through them, and do an analysis like this, to look at the > stability of things. You can measure "noise", by subtracting a constant, > or a linear fit, or parabolic, or exponential, or whatever seems > appropriate for the data at a given moment and determining the "residual" > as a function of time. Do this for a short averaging > period compared with the longer term underlying time function you are > trying to determine, and you can create your own process control chart. > > It is easy to suggest more work for you, isn't it :>} > Keep up the good work, it is nice to see real work being done and > reported. > > Hank > > On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Two kinds of data are taken. Points are taken and plotted every minute. > > About every 15 min, a better data set (more points are averaged) is taken and > > these are recorded. The points in question showed up in both data sets. In > > every other respect, the system appeared to be normal at that time. > > > > Ed > > > > hank scudder wrote: > > > > > Ed > > > Does your system take a continuous series of data points > > > over time during the experiment, or only take selected points when you are > > > interested in the data at that moment? Taking a continuous series of > > > points allows you to determine the "noise" properties of your overall data > > > collection system, and to determine when it gets "out of control" in a > > > process control sense. The data Scott showed seems much more noise-like > > > during this one instance in the third set. > > > > > > Hank > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 16:17:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07744; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:15:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:15:02 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:26:21 -0500 Message-ID: <20000222002621406.AAA114 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ND6ZN.0.ru1.6KTiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, You might try putting your cell in an oversized, well insulated container and pouring crushed glass around the cell to fill it up. That wouldn't be too hard to mess with. -Knuke >On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:44:40 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >[snip] >>It would be nice to have a granular material with relatively low heat >>capacity and good thermal conductivity for "dry" coupling. Ideally, this >>material would be a good electrical insulator as well so it could be poured >>around an electrical DUT without fear of creating short circuits. >> >>Any suggestions? >[snip] >I can think of only one substance - beryllium oxide. Problem is, that ASAIK >it is highly toxic. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > > Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 16:27:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11715; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:25:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:25:36 -0800 Message-ID: <38B1D7AF.7CB9BFC3 info2000.net> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:26:23 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: heat coupling medium References: <20000222002621406.AAA114 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oiudQ1.0.ys2._TTiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I seems to me that good clean silica sand would work as well as crushed glass. Here's hopin' something works. Ted From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 16:44:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16817; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:42:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:42:31 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:53:51 -0500 Message-ID: <20000222005351890.AAA172 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"LHZe72.0.h64.tjTiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I seems to me that good clean silica sand would work as >well as crushed glass. > >Here's hopin' something works. > >Ted That's true, but if you used a high grade quartz glass, for example, you would eliminate any possibility of mineral impurities heating up from eddy currents caused by induction. It would be electrically transparent. Plus you could crush the glass into a fine powder that left less of an air gap between the surfaces, and pack it into an almost solid that would be thermally more responsive. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 19:04:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18221; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:59:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:59:57 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:59:12 EST Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"oLnwI2.0.dS4.jkViu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/21/00 2:25:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, Tstolper aol.com writes: > Vince, > Thanks for posting the February 18 Dow Jones Newswire story by Erik Baard. > > Is there any discussion on SPF that's worth following? Do any of the > physicists or chemists or electrical engineers on that newsgroup show any > signs of understanding Mills' work? > Tom Stolper Nothing really worth reading unless you want a good laugh. A couple, but most are screaming and foaming at the mouth, extremely upset that the patent was issued. One wonders about the fate of the primary patent examiner (Wayne Langel?) who gave the stamp of approval to Dr. Mills. Patent office spokesperson did defend the decision but I fear for his tenure. Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 20:58:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17294; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:53:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:53:09 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:52:35 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"e4uCz1.0.0E4.rOXiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/21/2000 11:26:51 AM, Michael Huffman wrote: << Mills has patents now that utilize his explanation for some phenomena that have already been fully explained by the current paradigm, but just not engineered until now.>> As Paul Grant, Robert L. Park, and Philip W. Anderson have been at pains to point out, the current paradigm says that Mills' hydrinos can't exist. But he's shown that they do, so he's gone beyond the current paradigm in that respect alone. Michael went on to refer to <<...all of what Mills has claimed to have speculated on, but not had time to engineer into proof. Superluminal speeds, anti-gravity, room temperature superconduction, the massive number of new materials proposed, and so forth are examples.>> Mills doesn't claim superluminal speeds for any of his devices, real or hypothetical, and he doesn't think that room-temperature superconductivity is possible. According to Mills, the highest possible Tc is about 180 K. <> Words almost fail me. Fred does know a lot about chemistry and other scientific matters, but Mills is in a different league. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 21:18:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17409; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:53:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:53:24 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:52:40 EST Subject: Re: Cathode materials To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ti6Dc2.0.nF4.3PXiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here are excerpts from two posts by Jed regarding Type A palladium: The "Type A" palladium saga * From: Jed Rothwell * Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:43:23 [Jed quoting Fleischmann:] Most of our own investigations have been carried out with a material which we have described as Johnson Matthey Material Type A. This material is prepared by melting under a blanket gas of cracked ammonia (or else its synthetic equivalent) the concentrations of five key classes of impurities being controlled. Electrodes are then produced by a succession of steps of square rolling, round rolling and, finally, drawing with appropriate annealing steps in the production cycle. [Proc. ICCF-7, p. 121] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Re: The "Type A" palladium saga * From: Jed Rothwell * Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:17:07 Mike McKubre says that "Type A" is pure Pd: "It is not an alloy and has (to my knowledge) no Ag addition. The tricks are in the melting and subsequent metallurgical treatments." ______________________________________________________________________________ __ I didn't follow the thread closely, but I was left with the impression that Type A palladium was as close to pure as one could buy, and that to do any better, one would have to go into the refining business oneself. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 21:57:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA01444; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:56:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:56:10 -0800 Message-ID: <38B22576.80DAF91C ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:58:58 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VnCCn1.0.QM.vJYiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This issue is going to get nowhere. We do not know what is in Type-A, only that it does not contain sliver. In addition, the method of preparation determines the presence of many impurities for which an analysis is not or can not be made. Only Johnson-Matthey knows what is in Type-A and how it is made. You need to ask them if you want meaningful answers. Further speculation is pointless. Ed Storms. Tstolper aol.com wrote: > Here are excerpts from two posts by Jed regarding Type A palladium: > > The "Type A" palladium saga > * From: Jed Rothwell > * Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:43:23 > > [Jed quoting Fleischmann:] > > Most of our own investigations have been carried out > with a material which we have described as Johnson Matthey > Material Type A. This material is prepared by melting under a > blanket gas of cracked ammonia (or else its synthetic > equivalent) the concentrations of five key classes of impurities > being controlled. Electrodes are then produced by a succession > of steps of square rolling, round rolling and, finally, drawing > with appropriate annealing steps in the production cycle. [Proc. > ICCF-7, p. 121] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- > > Re: The "Type A" palladium saga > * From: Jed Rothwell > * Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:17:07 > > Mike McKubre says that "Type A" is pure Pd: "It is not an > alloy and has (to my knowledge) no Ag addition. The tricks are in the > melting and subsequent metallurgical treatments." > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > __ > > I didn't follow the thread closely, but I was left with the impression that > Type A palladium was as close to pure as one could buy, and that to do any > better, one would have to go into the refining business oneself. > > Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 22:00:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02477; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:59:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:59:15 -0800 Message-ID: <02c401bf7cc5$4b91a160$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Diamond Powder from READE Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:41:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF7C82.1E006BC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"JX8C7.0.dc.oMYiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF7C82.1E006BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.reade.com/Products/Carbons/diamond.html ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF7C82.1E006BC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Diamond Powder from READE.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Diamond Powder from READE.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.reade.com/Products/Carbons/diamond.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.reade.com/Products/Carbons/diamond.html Modified=40295F16C57CBF01DF ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF7C82.1E006BC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 22:00:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02501; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:59:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:59:18 -0800 Message-ID: <02c501bf7cc5$4d56d100$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Heat Transfer Material Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:41:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7C82.275D93A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"5BiBE1.0._c.rMYiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7C82.275D93A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At ~ $1.00/gram Diamond Powder might do, Scott. Low electrical conductivity and a heat conductivity comparable to Iron or Steel. http://paleoart.com/doyle/index.htm FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7C82.275D93A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="DOYLE INDUSTRIAL DIAMOND COMPANY, INC. HOME PAGE.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DOYLE INDUSTRIAL DIAMOND COMPANY, INC. HOME PAGE.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://paleoart.com/doyle/index.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://paleoart.com/doyle/index.htm Modified=60CA4B5FC47CBF01D4 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF7C82.275D93A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 23:19:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA21011; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:16:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:16:25 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF7CC1.D2046920.bhorst gte.net> From: Bob Horst To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mills' US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:17:26 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oP4B33.0.885.0VZiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow -- A typical small patent has a handful of claims. An extensive patent may have around a hundred claims. This Mills patent has 499 claims! Many of the claims are extremely general, and it looks like they would cover his apparatus or anything remotely close to it, whether or not the shrinking hydrogen theory has any merit. The patent now has about 17 years left. The key question is whether anything based on it will make it to market before then. -- Bob Horst On Thursday, February 17, 2000 1:26 PM, Frederick Sparber [SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net] wrote: > US 6,024,935 > > http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm > > (95 pages long) > > Regards, Frederick > << File: US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search.url >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 23:31:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23130; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:27:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:27:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000222012836.0073e21c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:28:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Heat Transfer Material In-Reply-To: <02c501bf7cc5$4d56d100$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tgYOh2.0.9f5.jfZiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:41 PM 2/21/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >At ~ $1.00/gram Diamond Powder might do, Scott. I'm going to try sand, first. Even buying it in bags at Home Depot, it's about 10,000 times cheaper than diamond powder. Thanks for all the suggestions! Scott R. Little EarthTech International 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 01:55:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA13078; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:54:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:54:05 -0800 Message-ID: <026d01bf7c98$9ac46a60$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Modified M&O Experiment Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:21:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"gDwjn2.0.GC3.zobiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Using a length of 1.0 millimeter diameter 100% Tungsten welding rod (~ $2.00 at welders' supply stores for ~ 20 cm length) immersed in H2O/D2O and heated to 1,000 Kelvin with an AC or DC current, at a negative potential wrt a cylindrical Pt or Ni Anode while maintaining about 3 watts/cm^2 power dissipation in the electrolyte, might prove interesting CF-Fission-OU wise. The socket contacts from electrical connectors will slip over the 1.0 mm W wire nicely and heat shrinkable plastic tubing can be put over these. The voltage will be a fraction of a volt with about 10.0 amperes of current. As always, calorimetry and and isotope analysis is the hard part. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 02:53:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA21453; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:53:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:53:03 -0800 Message-ID: <02e101bf7ccc$6f7870c0$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000221144440.013533a8 mail.eden.com> <7fg3bs4qcjoac0261e3in47ld6a19fb8it@4ax.com> Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:33:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"CbuHT2.0.7F5.Fgciu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:54 PM Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Robin wrote: > On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:44:40 -0600, Scott Little wrote: > [snip] > >It would be nice to have a granular material with relatively low heat > >capacity and good thermal conductivity for "dry" coupling. Ideally, this > >material would be a good electrical insulator as well so it could be poured > >around an electrical DUT without fear of creating short circuits. > > > >Any suggestions? > [snip] > I can think of only one substance - beryllium oxide. Problem is, that ASAIK > it is highly toxic. I agree on the BeO choice, but, in powder form it is highly toxic. That's why I suggested Diamond Powder. Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 03:42:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA26723; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:41:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:41:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222063721.007eacd0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:37:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cathode materials In-Reply-To: <38B22576.80DAF91C ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JZbZT2.0.TX6.aNdiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:58 PM 2/21/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >This issue is going to get nowhere. We do not know what is in Type-A, only that >it does not contain sliver. In addition, the method of preparation determines >the presence of many impurities for which an analysis is not or can not be made. >Only Johnson-Matthey knows what is in Type-A and how it is made. You need to ask >them if you want meaningful answers. Further speculation is pointless. > >Ed Storms. With all due respect, although the next to the last sentence is correct, the issue is science which is systematized knowledge, and it WILL help. Furthermore, there have been detailed atomic analyses of the best electrodes, although the results are not generally available. Also, extrinisic impurities have a major role, eg. Au in Ni systems and B in Pd systems, as reported by ourselves and Mel Miles, respectively. Although speculation may be pointless (except by experimentation with use of the optimal operating point), science has a major role. Mit chell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 04:07:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA30574; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:06:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:06:53 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:18:09 -0500 Message-ID: <20000222121809812.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"BtQ5n2.0.aT7.Qldiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom writes: >As Paul Grant, Robert L. Park, and Philip W. Anderson have been at pains to >point out, the current paradigm says that Mills' hydrinos can't exist. But >he's shown that they do, so he's gone beyond the current paradigm in that >respect alone. Just for the sake of discussion, I'm going to parse this, and offer the misgivings that I have at the moment with the Mills phenomenon, based upon what I've observed so far. I should explain that I read his initial material over four years ago, and it didn't make much sense to me at the time. I should re-read it, but I don't think I'll have the time. As for Grant and Anderson, I don't know them, or what their reasons for objection to the granting of the Mills patent. Park, I have read, but I really don't take anything that he writes as being serious. He seems to be like some sort of stand-up comic science journalist for the APS Journal that just has a way with below the belt one-liners. To give him some credit, he is funny sometimes, but I don't think he has any stake in being accurate about anything, nor does he appear to aspire to do any science. I've never seen him propose anything in serious way or even be an advocate of any particular school of thought. >Mills doesn't claim superluminal speeds for any of his devices, real or >hypothetical, and he doesn't think that room-temperature superconductivity is >possible. According to Mills, the highest possible Tc is about 180 K. You are probably more familiar with the limitations of his claims regarding the superluminal speeds and the room temp SC. He should re-examine them, though, in light of the published findings. Grigorov (sp) of MPI has been heavily funded by the US Air Force for his high temp, SC plastic thin films based on some pretty conclusive evidence. The measurement of superliminal speeds have also been published in the peer review literature utilizing carbon nanotube fibers. I don't remember the researcher names, but it has been within the last few years that I read this. I guess what I'm saying is that if Mills' GUT doesn't allow for these things, then there may be something wrong with the theory. >Words almost fail me. Fred does know a lot about chemistry and other >scientific matters, but Mills is in a different league. Your words have failed you, as I haven't seen any serious attempt at the refutation of Fred's claims so far. Your math has been completely non-existent, so I can only conclude that either you don't understand Mills' math, or you don't understand Fred's, but you've made no effort to explain your reasons for thinking that Mills' math and GUT is superior. As for Mills being in another league, well, I'm just not convinced. Fred has 50 years in the lab, has patents of his own that are understandable, has participated in some largescale, successful government programs of enormous complexity, and Randell Mills has not. Like I said, this is just for the sake of discussion, and not a direct attack on you or Mills. Mills is obviously an extraordinary and accomplished person in his own right, but the circumstances surrounding his prominence at the moment are possibly due more to good PR packaging (the Scottish, married, hardworking, bootstrapped himself off the farm, Edisonian meme-a-like), and perhaps some good market timing, than to any real advancements in Science. The reason I say this is that we've seen elements of the same patterns of behavior before with other people of very high quality that almost force this line of questioning. Consider also the following: Mills makes the claim for excess heat, and has it verified by some labs. Then there is silence about the excess heat for some time. Meanwhile, people unsuccessfully attempt to replicate, and can't. Mills talks about batteries, has some instrumental evidence for hydrino's, but shows no batteries. In fact, while testing another similar plasma device, everybody in numerous camps have their expensive instruments go bizarro on them, and Scott Little now reads his meters two ways, right side up and laying down. Obviously there is something about the electrostatics that is poorly understood, even by our own notable experts in calorimetry and power measurement. Could it possibly be that Mills experienced the same kind of difficulty? Mills gets some medium amount of funding from some power companies, based on his early test results, and hires a bunch of good people with the money to do R&D. That is about the time he goes silent on the excess heat. Then he has an ex-Reagan/Bush era DOE guy for a director. Gee, the rose colored glasses era. What a time. Wasn't that era marked by the total elimination by the DOE of all funding for solar power, wind power, electric cars and every other form of non-oil, non-polluting or non-nuclear power? Wasn't it also the era that Secretary Watt wanted to open up the entire West Coast for oil exploration/exploitation? Wasn't it also the era that FEMA dug all those tunnels for the military and called it Emergency Management? Wasn't that the era that we spent all that DOE money on Starwars development, which put our country into a trillion dollars in debt, and a bunch of other huge non-performing phoney fusion extravaganza projects? Wasn't that the era that between 600,000 and 1,000,000 people died in Ethiopia per year from starvation for a decade, and while every other civilized country sent aid, our government said that is too bad? In other words, what business has that guy on the board of directors of BLP? Now Mills is talking about heat again, and he says that he is working on a way to generate electricity. Still not one device or product after six years, just his theory, and some old test results. A lot of power company money spent, some spinned up, very short on details, press reports, and TA DA! An IPO in the works in an overheated market at a time when fuel cells are going through the roof, and a lot of vested people are banging the drum on the internet. Do I smell an insider bailout, or is this for real? Does Mills actually have something or does he hope to use the money in a Yankee Doodle, Edisonian effort to brute force engineer his way out of a pickle? Will we see at least a dozen or so testable prototypes before the IPO, or will we see a bunch more patent filings, and hear talk about the year 2005? Like I said, I'm not really up on all this, but I've seen this kind of behavior before. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 04:14:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA32386; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:12:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:12:49 -0800 Message-ID: <20000222121330.28105.qmail web116.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: ron kita Subject: Mills Patent 499 Claims To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"YfINL3.0.yv7.0rdiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mills patent was cited as havong 499 claims.... one thing that I know for sure the cost of a patent is directly proportional to the number of claims. One could probably retire on the cost of litigating this one. If one looks at the average Japan filed US patent they will see few claims....BUT very broad ones. Many cheers for Dr Mills......I never look at a patent BUT rather the man behind the patent. Mills has opened the patent office door a little more widely. As for the examiner that granted this one......he will probably have good tenure. Best, Ron Kita Antigravitics_R_US __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 04:46:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA05707; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:45:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:45:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222074113.0096de60 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:41:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <20000222121809812.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mlhnp1.0.5P1.WJeiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:18 AM 2/22/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: > Mills makes the claim for excess heat, and has >it verified by some labs. Then there is silence about the excess heat for >some time. Meanwhile, people unsuccessfully attempt to replicate, and >can't. If you mean aqueous nickel-H2O systems, there continue to be demonstrations of excess heat, and many new developments. Those who ignore the literature, in favor of the half-baked and low-wattage reporting [and false statements] on the internet, may be making a mistake. Simply put, those who dont use teachings of those before them, and who ignore optimal operating points, may be only doing putative "replications" rather than serous science. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 05:28:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA13884; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:27:46 -0800 Message-ID: <036701bf7d33$c3d3b960$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: CF/OU-Transmutation Casserole Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:51:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"aFlIF.0.sO3.Hxeiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ingredients: 1 cup sugar (C6H12O6) 2 cups flour (C6H10O5) 4 tablespoons of K2CO3 (leached from ashes of burnt toast) 1/2 cup of water (H2O) 1/4 cup of oleo (CH3- 21CH2- CO-OH) 3/4 cups of Tungsten Powder (- 300 mesh) Preheat oven to 450 F, mix ingredients thoroughly put in quartz pan and place in oven . When it exotherms generating smoke, hydrinos, and tungsten daughters, DO NOT apply for a Patent. Three or more claims of Mills' patent, US 6,024,935 already has it covered! Sorry. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 05:49:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA20793; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:48:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:48:56 -0800 Message-ID: <031401bf7cd5$6943ea00$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000222002621406.AAA114 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:36:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"OgKJP3.0.p45.7Ffiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 4:26 PM Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Knuke wrote: > Scott, > You might try putting your cell in an oversized, well insulated container > and pouring crushed glass around the cell to fill it up. That wouldn't be > too hard to mess with. -Knuke I sure hate to argue with such a kindly gentleman after such well appreciated praise. But: Material k ( in same units) Diamond 320 Glass 0.60 Sand 0.20 Diamond Powder 100 (by same comparison)? Regards, Frederick > > >On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:44:40 -0600, Scott Little wrote: > >[snip] > >>It would be nice to have a granular material with relatively low heat > >>capacity and good thermal conductivity for "dry" coupling. Ideally, this > >>material would be a good electrical insulator as well so it could be poured > >>around an electrical DUT without fear of creating short circuits. > >> > >>Any suggestions? > >[snip] > >I can think of only one substance - beryllium oxide. Problem is, that ASAIK > >it is highly toxic. > > > >Regards, > > > >Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 06:13:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26634; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:11:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:11:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222091047.007ab430 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:10:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cathode materials In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000222063721.007eacd0 world.std.com> References: <38B22576.80DAF91C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gjtgs3.0.3W6.tZfiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Furthermore, there have been detailed atomic analyses of the >best electrodes, although the results are not generally available. If results are not available, they might as well not exist, and there is no point in talking about them. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 06:24:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30274; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:23:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:23:10 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:34:32 -0500 Message-ID: <20000222143432671.AAC276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"K754v2.0.yO7.Elfiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: > If you mean aqueous nickel-H2O systems, there continue to be >demonstrations of excess heat, and many new developments. > > Those who ignore the literature, in favor of the >half-baked and low-wattage reporting [and false statements] >on the internet, may be making a mistake. > > Simply put, those who dont use teachings of those before them, >and who ignore optimal operating points, may be only doing putative >"replications" rather than serous science. > > Best wishes. > Mitchell Swartz Points well taken. I'm sure that there is something well worth continuing to investigate in the Mills technique. When I see a bunch of money and power guys, a Wall Street IPO, and no prototypes available however, I have to turn the whole thing upside down, and give it a good shake to see what falls out. No offense meant to anyone, really. I just like to see something beside social engineering and market psychology, that's all. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 06:24:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30248; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:23:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:23:08 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: heat coupling medium Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:34:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20000222143430453.AAA276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"6VJ3G2.0.TO7.Blfiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >I sure hate to argue with such a kindly gentleman after such well appreciated praise. [table of real data snipped] I should probably actually look some of this stuff up before I pop some of these ideas off the top of my head. ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 06:37:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA02247; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:36:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:36:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222093556.007ad500 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:35:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <20000222121809812.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Pmvuz2.0.1Z.Vxfiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote a lot about Mills, and I agree with every word, except the stuff about math which is over my head. He wrote: >Mills is obviously an extraordinary and >accomplished person in his own right, but the circumstances surrounding his >prominence at the moment are possibly due more to good PR packaging (the >Scottish, married, hardworking, bootstrapped himself off the farm, Edisonian >meme-a-like), and perhaps some good market timing, than to any real >advancements in Science. The reason I say this is that we've seen elements >of the same patterns of behavior before with other people of very high >quality that almost force this line of questioning. Amen. Mills may have something, but so far he has squandered every opportunity. You never know; he might turn the situation around quickly soon. He may feel that at last everything is ready, and he can move ahead. I would be delighted if that happens. >Consider also the following: Mills makes the claim for excess heat, and has >it verified by some labs. Then there is silence about the excess heat for >some time. Meanwhile, people unsuccessfully attempt to replicate, and >can't. Mills talks about batteries, has some instrumental evidence for >hydrino's, but shows no batteries. In fact, while testing another similar >plasma device, everybody in numerous camps have their expensive instruments >go bizarro on them . . . Right. Talk, talk, talk. Six years ago Mills claimed he a heat producing cell that, if real, would have made him the most important and wealthy person on earth by now. Where is it? Why is he raising money from capitalists and hiring expensive people when he could be selling what he has at an astounding profit? (The low-level heat he claimed years ago would be immensely valuable in water and space-heating applications.) Maybe there is some aspect of his business situation I do not know about or I fail to understand, but it looks to me like the man has a screw loose. >Now Mills is talking about heat again, and he says that he is working on a >way to generate electricity. Still not one device or product after six >years, just his theory, and some old test results. Exactly! Looks a lot like the kind of smoke and mirrors we have seen so often before in the o-u energy biz. Some people say the Mills gadget might be more expensive and less reliable than alternatives. That has never held back revolutionary discoveries in the past. Look at automatic looms, chronometers, bicycles, personal computers, automobiles, steam engines, voice input software . . . They were at first unreliable, and hundreds or in some cases thousands of times more expensive than commonly available alternatives. Chronometers cost as much as a small ship at a time when competing, government sponsored methods of navigation were available for free. But, because they had intrinsic advantages, with 10 or 20 years they wiped out the competition. The chronometer, perhaps more than any other innovation, made England the most powerful seafaring nation in the early 19th century, which helped make English culture and language the international standard of the 21st century. Think about it: A machine you can hold in the palm of your hand changed the fate of nations! It has happened over and over again, from the flint knife, the stirrup and the compass to the incandescent light, the vaccine, and the microprocessor. Small things have great power in them. They can overthrow empires and repopulate continents, and in the future, worlds. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 10:50:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03449; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:47:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:47:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:47:19 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: The Patent Office will patent anything Resent-Message-ID: <"fOtGn3.0.pr.8djiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "A patent means nothing. It carries >no weight as scientific validation," said Paul Grant, a researcher at Electric >Power Research Institute, a non-profit industry think tank for new >technologies. > > "I am shocked that they issued a patent on this," said Robert Park, a >spokesman for the American Physical Society. > Anyone who has followed fringe science shouldn't be shocked by Mill's patent. The Patent Office's job is to issue patents on previously unpatented technology. As long as you don't claim overunity energy production, however Kawai has that as one of his claims. Too bad his motor doesn't work. I hope that Dr. Mills succeeds in building his 5KW home energy machine. I'm going to see if I can get on the list to purchase one if I can get it for anywhere near $1500. I'd also like to see him collect Eric Kreig's $5000 prize for an energy machine. But he has thrown in everything but the kitchen sink in those claims. I'm skeptical but withholding judgement. Thomas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 10:51:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03829; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:48:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:48:16 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:47:41 +0100 (MET) From: David Jonsson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: EM and mechanical fluid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jIsMG3.0.gx.mdjiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I need help to calculate how the mechanical airflow is affected around an electrical dipole. air air - ##DIPOLE## + -----> Velocity of dipole air air Please help. Even a few tips would be helpful. David David Jonsson US Fax +1 (305) 946-7851 Stockholm Phone +46-703-000370 E-mail David Bahnhof.se Sweden http://www.bahnhof.se/~david Postgiro 499 40 54-7 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 11:10:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12601; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:06:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:06:55 -0800 Message-ID: <000601bf7d70$249f6be0$cc441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: The Patent Office will patent anything Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:05:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4QLNA2.0.g43.Bvjiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: thomas Malloy To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:47 AM Subject: Re: The Patent Office will patent anything Thomas wrote: > > I hope that Dr. Mills succeeds in building his 5KW home energy machine. I'm > going to see if I can get on the list to purchase one if I can get it for > anywhere near $1500. I'd also like to see him collect Eric Kreig's $5000 > prize for an energy machine. But he has thrown in everything but the > kitchen sink in those claims. I'm skeptical but withholding judgement. Almost everything but the Sunrise and Virgin Birth. He'll cover those after the IPO. Regards, Frederick > > Thomas > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:32:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26467; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:21:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:21:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001901bf7d7a$9fcda5c0$cc441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Radar Mapping Pix Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:20:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7D37.89A61720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"f0gh82.0.MT6.X_kiu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7D37.89A61720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neat, huh? http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/02/22/shuttle.02/index.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7D37.89A61720 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN - Technology - Poor weather clouds shuttle landing prospects - February 22, 2000.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN - Technology - Poor weather clouds shuttle landing prospects - February 22, 2000.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/02/22/shuttle.02/index.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/02/22/shuttle.02/index.html Modified=603DDE617A7DBF0193 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7D37.89A61720-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:32:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08208; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:28:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:28:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222152334.007e9eb0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:23:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cathode materials In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000222091047.007ab430 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000222063721.007eacd0 world.std.com> <38B22576.80DAF91C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HNv3g.0.A02.96liu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:10 AM 2/22/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> Furthermore, there have been detailed atomic analyses of the >>best electrodes, although the results are not generally available. > >If results are not available, they might as well not exist, and there is no >point in talking about them. > >- Jed Nonsense. I have presented the results at some of my lectures. They do exist, and are worth speaking of, Jed. Good luck improving your own accuracy, Jed. Mitchell Swarz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:34:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26888; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:29:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:29:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222152310.007ed300 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:23:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000222093556.007ad500 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20000222121809812.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X0uT92.0.zZ6.A6liu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:35 AM 2/22/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>Consider also the following: Mills makes the claim for excess heat, and has >>it verified by some labs. Then there is silence about the excess heat for >>some time. Meanwhile, people unsuccessfully attempt to replicate, and >>can't. Mills talks about batteries, has some instrumental evidence for >>hydrino's, but shows no batteries. In fact, while testing another similar >>plasma device, everybody in numerous camps have their expensive instruments >>go bizarro on them . . . > >Right. Talk, talk, talk. Six years ago Mills claimed he a heat producing >cell that, if real, would have made him the most important and wealthy >person on earth by now.... it looks to me like the man has a screw loose. Please take your ad hominems off vortex, Mr. Rothwell. They dont belong here. Goodbye. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:34:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31074; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:30:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:30:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222163017.0079d790 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:30:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Radar Mapping Pix In-Reply-To: <001901bf7d7a$9fcda5c0$cc441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eeTLI.0.Sb7.10miu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I read somewhere that before this mission, we had better 3-D mapping data from Mars (and Venus?) than Earth. The article Fred referenced says: The crew will return with 332 high-density tapes with map data that could take scientists one or two years to analyze. The 12 terabytes of radar data could fill 20,600 compact discs, NASA said. And its value to mankind is greater than that of all the gold in Fort Knox. I hope the dataset is made available on line. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:37:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32479; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:34:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:34:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222163412.00799bf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:34:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Radar Mapping Pix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EkMT_1.0.Kx7.h3miu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: And its value to mankind is greater than that of all the gold in Fort Knox. I hope the dataset is made available on line. OOPS! I should have the article more carefully. It says: NASA's partner, the Defense Department's National Imagery and Mapping Agency, will be the primary recipient of the maps, which it plans to use to aim missiles, guide aircraft and deploy troops with unprecedented precision. The scientific community will not be able to see all of the data, since some of it will remain classified for national security reasons. So much for that. Once again, we beat our plowshares into swords. What a tragic waste. All that knowledge, locked away, useless . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:38:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00512; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:35:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:35:32 -0800 Message-ID: <00ab01bf7d7d$ba2cdeb0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000222093556.007ad500 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:42:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"8JE8f1.0.w7.Z4miu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick wrote: >Almost everything but the Sunrise and Virgin Birth. >He'll cover those after the IPO. - Randell Mills problem in writing the patent is that the new physics that he has discovered is mostly unpatentable. Hydrinos are present in nature ( according to Mills ) and are therefore unpatentable. New physics is unpatentable, only new and effective methods of producing and using hydrinos are readily patentable. Since the best methods of producing and using hydrinos have probably not yet been discovered, Mills had to take a shotgun approach with the patent and try to cover every possible future development. In my experience, this technique is not too effective, and may lead to legitimate future challenges to the patent. Mills has to be careful because he has apparently not yet developed a marketable product and his main advantage in developing one is the proprietary technology and knowledge that he has developed. - I think that by studying the new material on the BLP website, it is easy to understand why Scott's attempts at replication were unsuccessful. My opinion is that Vince's results show definite positive evidence but not proof of BLP like XSH. The latest compilation of results on the BLP site is extensive and impressive, apparently impressive enough to force the patent office into granting the patent. ----------------------------------------------------------------- From the Village Voice, letters to the editor Published January 5 - 11, 2000 The problem with physicists who put Dr. Mills down is that they reject before they analyze. This is a bit reminiscent of the reaction to a Geneva, Switzerland, patent clerk who told physicists of the early 1900s that Newton was wrong at high speed. Even when the patent clerk showed them that he was right-that the precession of the orbit of Mercury showed that Newton needed corrections-he was scoffed at. Einstein was the patent clerk. As an investor in BlackLight Power, I say the real laugh here is Dr. Robert Park of the American Physical Society, who apparently claims to know everything about the simplest atom, hydrogen, and so sits smugly back instead of studying Mills's results. But Richard Feynman, the Nobel laureate who is the "father" of quantum electrodynamics, said, "I go to my deathbed unhappy, because we still don't know all there is to know about the simplest atom, hydrogen." I'll take the word of Feynman over Park any day. Norm Winningstad Newport, Oregon -------------------------------------------------------------------- I know Norm from many technical conference program committee meetings. He is a competent and conservative no nonsense engineer. If he invested in BLP he must have seen some very convincing evidence of commercial potential. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:53:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08373; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:51:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:51:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222165046.0079c720 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:50:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <00ab01bf7d7d$ba2cdeb0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000222093556.007ad500 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dDXix.0.j22.KJmiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: >I think that by studying the new material on the BLP website, it is >easy to understand why Scott's attempts at replication were >unsuccessful. That's interesting. Could you be a little more specific? Where do you think the replication went wrong? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 14:10:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13689; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:08:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:08:06 -0800 Message-ID: <38B30987.C4D65A7E bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:11:19 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heat Transfer Material References: <02c501bf7cc5$4d56d100$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_OjcK.0.lL3.3Zmiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > At ~ $1.00/gram Diamond Powder might do, Scott. > > Low electrical conductivity and a heat conductivity comparable to Iron or Steel. How different are those characteristics from graphite? Scott could just rob all the elementary schools' pencil sharpeners. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 14:22:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17755; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:17:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:17:09 -0800 Message-ID: <38B30BA5.B5583071 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:20:21 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cathode materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CkH1v1.0.9L4.Xhmiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: > > Here are excerpts from two posts by Jed regarding Type A palladium: > > The "Type A" palladium saga > * From: Jed Rothwell > * Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:43:23 > > [Jed quoting Fleischmann:] > > Most of our own investigations have been carried out > with a material which we have described as Johnson Matthey > Material Type A. This material is prepared by melting under a > blanket gas of cracked ammonia (or else its synthetic > equivalent) the concentrations of five key classes of impurities > being controlled. Electrodes are then produced by a succession > of steps of square rolling, round rolling and, finally, drawing > with appropriate annealing steps in the production cycle. [Proc. > ICCF-7, p. 121] Interesting. Sounds like the same layering which makes up a flaky pastry works for Pd cathodes. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 14:32:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21842; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:28:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:28:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000222162905.0135759c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:29:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <00ab01bf7d7d$ba2cdeb0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000222093556.007ad500 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qbYbl2.0.CL5.fsmiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:42 PM 2/22/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >But Richard Feynman, said, "I go to my deathbed unhappy, because we still >don't know all there is to know about the simplest atom, hydrogen." This is kinda like saying the hydrogen knowledge glass is half empty. It removes focus from the fact that the glass is also half full. We know an enormous amount about the hydrogen atom. It is probably the most thoroughly researched atom. In view of the numerous, simple processes by which Mills causes transitions to the fractional quantum states, I find it incredible that the fractional quantum states were not discovered long ago. Furthermore, why isn't most of our natural hydrogen already in the lowest of these new energy states? Maybe Mills has an answer for these questions by now. If so, please point me towards it. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 14:54:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29215; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:50:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:50:56 -0800 Message-ID: <009d01bf7d8f$6e0240e0$cc441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <02c501bf7cc5$4d56d100$ce8e1d26 fjsparber> <38B30987.C4D65A7E@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Heat Transfer Material Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:49:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"SLgB71.0.L87.GBniu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Blanton To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 2:11 PM Subject: Re: Heat Transfer Material Terry wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > At ~ $1.00/gram Diamond Powder might do, Scott. > > > > Low electrical conductivity and a heat conductivity comparable to Iron or Steel. > > How different are those characteristics from graphite? Scott > could just rob all the elementary schools' pencil sharpeners. Graphite is a "good" electrical conductor. Scott stipulated an electrical insulator. Regards, Frederick > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 15:20:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06604; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:18:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:18:03 -0800 Message-ID: <00d501bf7d8c$0226bd90$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000222093556.007ad500 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000222165046.0079c720@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:24:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"w29CT1.0.6d1.haniu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > George Holz wrote: > > >I think that by studying the new material on the BLP website, it is > >easy to understand why Scott's attempts at replication were > >unsuccessful. > > That's interesting. Could you be a little more specific? Where do you think > the replication went wrong? > > - Jed - >From a quick look at Scott's single electrochemical replication attempt it appears that he may have used too low a cathode current density and insufficient electrochemical cathode cleaning. - For the later vacuum, tungsten filament, KNO3 experiments a sufficient vapor pressure of K was probably not obtained. Early Mills experiments of this type on which Scott based his experiment were not very impressive either. Mills has since learned that the entire vessel must be held at a sufficient temperature to prevent the K from condensing on the walls and limiting the vapor pressure. One of his current experiments holds the vessel walls at 600 C. My experience with Hg in plasma displays definitely supports the requirement for keeping the temperature high at all available surfaces to maintain an effective high vapor pressure of Hg. Maintaining a reasonable vapor pressure of K obviously requires a much higher temperature than the 125 C I used for Hg in the plasma displays. Mills has also switched to a Ti screen material for H2 dissociation in his latest reported work. Scott wrote: >In view of the numerous, simple processes by which Mills causes transitions >to the fractional quantum states, I find it incredible that the fractional >quantum states were not discovered long ago. Furthermore, why isn't most >of our natural hydrogen already in the lowest of these new energy states? - First, Mills believes that much of the H is in the hydrino state. Second, it isn't so easy to make hydirinos in quantity on the earth without atomic H and sufficient K catalyst, which requires either electrochemistry or a high temperature process. Third, detecting hydrinos that may already be present in the environment is not at all easy, Mills has had a hard time detecting the hydrinos that he is making. Please read the more recent postings on the BLP site, some of the experiments are very interesting! - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 16:58:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11870; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:56:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:56:40 -0800 Message-ID: <38B16D33.F9E34588 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:52:03 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Palladium sourcing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KABcs2.0.Ov2.71piu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 22, 2000 Vortex, Arata, in reporting on his successful palladium DS Cathode cell, and subsequently successfully replicated (using his cathodes) by SRI, gave thanks to Tanaka Kinzoku KK for supplying the palladium used in his experiment(s). Tanaka Kinzoku KK has made a web site identifying itself, more widely now, as Tanaka Precious Metals Group. <> The web site indicates they have an American liaison office in Indianapolis among other information. They also invite inquiries. Perhaps experimenters may inquire about the availability of palladium samples equivalent (in activity and purity) to those used by Prof. Arata and, perhaps other experimenters in the cf game, to help in replicating the various Pd-D2 processes. Myself, I have been using those available from Strem. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 17:59:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06755; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:57:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:57:36 -0800 Message-ID: <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:59:50 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: information? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T19rs.0.Tf1.Gwpiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To all, Does anyone have any experience with or know anything about the Dr. Royal Rife machine for curing cancer? Apparently, this doctor developed a device which is able to destroy the pathogens which produce cancer and other diseases. This apparatus is now for sale. However, before investing in one of these, I would like to get some information about other people's experience, if any. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 18:37:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19396; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:35:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:35:18 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <18.11d222d.25e4a0f0 aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:33:20 EST Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"uzcim2.0.uk4.bTqiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/21/2000 10:03:59 PM, Vince Cockeram wrote, re the discussion on SPF: << ...most are screaming and foaming at the mouth, extremely upset that the patent was issued. >> There seems to be a misapprehension over there about what patents mean. The patent office hasn't got the time or the resources to determine whether or not devices actually work as claimed. That's not the job of the patent office. Their job is to make sure that the applicant has fully disclosed all the details necessary to make and operate the device, and that the application hasn't duplicated someone else's work, and that IF the device works as claimed, then it'll be useful. Mills' devices do work, and he's come a long way since 1991 toward making them marketable. Having an issued patent on something probably helps to market it, but I doubt that will have any effect on the scientific debate until the scientists involved can buy it themselves. Maybe the skeptics on SPF are afraid that in a year or two, they'll know someone somewhere whose company or lab has actually bought and used one of Mills' products. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 18:47:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23924; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:45:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:45:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000222214032.0080a9b0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:40:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: information? In-Reply-To: <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eb8E81.0.kr5.6dqiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:59 PM 2/22/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >To all, > >Does anyone have any experience with or know >anything about the Dr. Royal Rife machine for >curing cancer? Apparently, this doctor developed >a device which is able to destroy the pathogens >which produce cancer and other diseases. This >apparatus is now for sale. However, before >investing in one of these, I would like to get >some information about other people's experience, >if any. > >Ed Storms > > Why dont you read the published papers of using electricity against cancer which works, especially when used appropriately. This includes radiation medicine, and other studies including those which I have published on in this subject with full controls. Briefly, the electronically excited and electrically reduced states of molecular oxygen are KEY. Also, you dont "cure" cancer, you kill it. Like LENR/CF systems, there are a LOT of red herrings, ... but there is good technology out there if you are willing to learn, and use, some chemistry, material science, and electrical engineering. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 19:49:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11656; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:47:40 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:47:21 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000601bf7d70$249f6be0$cc441d26 fjsparber> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: The Patent Office will patent anything Resent-Message-ID: <"awufq.0.1s2.RXriu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Almost everything but the Sunrise and Virgin Birth. > >He'll cover those after the IPO. > >Regards, Frederick >> >> Thomas >> I am looking at a new design of motor which would be made obscolete by a working F E machine. I take it Frederick, that you would not let the possibility of BLP producing a working FE machine affect your decision in the matter From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 19:49:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11576; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:47:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:47:13 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:46:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: information? Resent-Message-ID: <"UyRpu3.0.oq2.1Xriu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: there is a book on the subject, "The Cancer Cure That Worked!" Auth: Barry Lynes Pub: Marcus Books, Ontario, CA ISBN 0-919951-30-9 (available from amazon.com) r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 21:13:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA05598; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:11:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:11:41 -0800 Message-ID: <38B36C8A.F5943748 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:14:02 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: information? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d037c1.0.HN1.Cmsiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, I have read this and was very impressed. The problem is whether I can trust the suppliers of the device to actually deliver a useful device. Ed Storms ralph muha wrote: > there is a book on the subject, > > "The Cancer Cure That Worked!" > Auth: Barry Lynes > Pub: Marcus Books, Ontario, CA > ISBN 0-919951-30-9 > (available from amazon.com) > > r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 22:13:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA21393; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:12:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:12:16 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:12:11 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000222214032.0080a9b0 world.std.com> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Re: information? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA21369 Resent-Message-ID: <"130sN3.0.9E5.0ftiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, Perhaps you could provid a few references or search criteria for relevant bielectormagnetic papers. There is a bewildering maze of information out there. Thanks, Ron W. On 22-Feb-00, Mitchell Swartz wrote: MS> Why dont you read the published papers of using MS> electricity against cancer which works, especially MS> when used appropriately. This includes radiation MS> medicine, and other studies including those MS> which I have published on in this subject MS> with full controls. Briefly, the electronically excited MS> and electrically reduced states of molecular oxygen MS> are KEY. MS> Also, you dont "cure" cancer, you kill it. MS> MS> Like LENR/CF systems, there are a LOT of red MS> herrings, ... but there is good technology out there if MS> you are willing to learn, and use, some chemistry, MS> material science, and electrical engineering. MS> MS> Best wishes. MS> MS> Mitchell Swartz MS> MS> MS> -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 22:22:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24017; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:20:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:20:29 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <7c.20f8a9d.25e4d5e2 aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:19:14 EST Subject: Re: EM and mechanical fluid To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id WAA23913 Resent-Message-ID: <"B3afI2.0.ws5.Rmtiu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 22/02/00 19:51:07 Paris, Madrid, david bahnhof.se a écrit : > I need help to calculate how the mechanical airflow is affected around an > electrical dipole. > > > air air > > - ##DIPOLE## + > -----> > Velocity of dipole > > air air > > > Please help. Even a few tips would be helpful. > > David Hi David, You will find all datas and explanations in the paper 6P-67"Electrodynamically induced airflow in one atmosphere uniform glow discharge surface plasma" by J. Reece Roth, presented at the 25th IEEE International Conference on Plasma Science ( June 1-4, 1998, Raleigh, North Carolina ). Have you see my web site about the Active GDP skin at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/s_gdpthr1.htm I hope this will help you, Ps: I shall soon post in my web site, a very interesting experiment about plasmoid generation at one atmosphere that anyone can perform easily... Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 23:03:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA00668; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:01:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:01:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:01:18 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000222214032.0080a9b0 world.std.com> References: <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Rife tech and killing cancer Resent-Message-ID: <"eTed72.0.JA.9Nuiu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 06:59 PM 2/22/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >>To all, >> >>Does anyone have any experience with or know >>anything about the Dr. Royal Rife machine for >>curing cancer? Apparently, this doctor developed >>a device which is able to destroy the pathogens >>which produce cancer and other diseases. This >>apparatus is now for sale. Ed; The parts are for sale, as is the book to assemble them, go http://www.rt66.com/~rifetech/ , My business partner and I have a long time interest in this technology. While the medical mafia will not tollerate interferance in it's cancer business, there is a potential market in profolactic irridiation of meat to destroy salamonella and other pathogenic organisms. If you are discrete, this technology can also be used to extend the lives of one's friends. I located an engineer who told me that he could build a machine that could be used to treat meat, but the radiation would "mess up the meat" similar to gamma ray irridiation. He went on to say that the radiation from a Bare version of a Rife machine accelerated the aging process. I noticed in Dr. Bare's website that continued exposure to the Rife machine is necessary inorder to keep the cancer from comming back. If you follow the links from Dr. Bare's page you will see a picture of the tube which is the basis of Dr. Bare's patent. The version that my partner has uses two metal plates. one of the electrodes in the tube is angled relative to the flow of the electrical energy. I'm wondering if the energy produced is all electromagnetic or if a scalar component is formed. I'm wondering what your interest in cancer stems from. I have been investigating the subject for some time and have come to the following conclusions: When you kill the cancer by chemicals and hard irridiation, you often times weaken the body to the point were it also dies, this is to be avoided. The body will destroy cancer on it's own if it is cleansed and balanced properly. This includes a Kelly liver purge, adjusting the body fluids to an alkaline balance by proper nutrition, getting plenty of oxygen by H2O2 or a hyperbaric chamber, getting plenty of antioxidants by eating the right combinations of raw fruits and vegetables. drinking pure water, preferably from a living water machine. I am planning on posting my book on reversing the effects of the aging process just as soon as I get around to it. If your need is urgent, and what I just wrote makes sense to you, send me your snailmail address and I will send you a 2nd edition of my book. However, before >>investing in one of these, I would like to get >>some information about other people's experience, >>if any. >> >>Ed Storms >> >> Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Also, you dont "cure" cancer, you kill it. > I assume Mitchell that you are old enough to remember the expression, "we had to destroy the village inorder to save it" ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 23:14:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA25500; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:12:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:12:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01BF7D8A.7D27EA70 istf-1-24.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Incandescent W and EM interference Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:13:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id XAA25447 Resent-Message-ID: <"XWzdm2.0.IE6.jXuiu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little's "Run 6" Incandescent W experiment results, at http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/300volt/run6/run6.html show a very close balance between power in and power out. And there continues to be discussion of RF interference created by the experiment. Does anyone have an idea of how much power might be radiated as EM there? I don't see that discussed as part of the power balance... is that because it is presumed to be insignificant? Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 00:53:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA05631; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:52:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:52:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:52:01 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200002230852.JAA23494 front2.grolier.fr> X-Sender: jplentin pop3.club-internet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: Re: Rife tech and killing cancer Resent-Message-ID: <"jO2sz1.0.qN1.4_viu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed, Ron, Ralph, Thomas, Mitchell & all ! As mentioned in several posts, old and new electromagnetic therapies (notably against cancer) are a huge field of research and there is an enormous wealth of information on the net (which I've been studying for years - it's the subject of my next book, hopefully completed this year). As for Rife machines, there are many versions presently marketed by different companies, each one claiming it has the best one, of course... Unfortunately, there is no reliable clinical data so far. This is all "underground science". >From my readings, I gather that the most favorable word-of-mouth point to the plasma tube device patented by Dr James Bare and marketed by Don Tunney (see below for links). To sum up the results : yes, the device has some success in controlling or killing cancer, but clearly it's no 100 % "magic bullet". For some reason it doesn't work on every case. Much more research is needed. I include the latest version of "RIFE list FAQ" for relevant links : ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to the Rife listserver, a forum where people discuss use of the Bare-Rife Generator, send an email to rife-list-request eskimo.com with subject of subscribe (Send a message with unsubscribe as the subject to unsubscribe). It sends around 15-20 or more messages per day or can be subscribed in digest form. Send an email to rife-list-request eskimo.com with subject of subscribe digest to subscribe in digest mode. To subscribe to the Rifers listserver, which does not allow off-topic discussion and has less traffic, send a message to rifers-subscribe topica.com. To unsubscribe, send a message to rifers-unsubscribe topica.com For theories on how some bioelectrical devices may work see "Electrical and Frequency Effects on Pathogens" at http://turf.home.mindspring.com/ For an overview on some bioelectrical devices that people are using, see "Zappers and Other Gizmos" at Richard Loyd's website http://www.royalrife.com/ For information on James Bare's modern incarnation of the Rife generator and to buy a construction manual see his web site at http://www.rt66.com/~rifetech/ To purchase a complete Bare-Rife Plasma Tube Generator, see Don Tunney's website at http://www.kalamark.com/rife_bare or Dave's Electronics at http://www.flinet.com/~vibrnthealth/ For frequency lists for Bare-Rife generators or other frequency devices, including the Consolidated Annotated Frequency List (CAFL) which is a large "master list", see the Bare-Rife frequency section at http://turf.home.mindspring.com For anecdotes relating to use of a Bare-Rife generator or other bioelectronic modalities, see "Frequency Anecdotes" and "Reports" in the Bare-Rife section of http://turf.home.mindspring.com or Thomas A. Rice's Rife Research Foundation website at http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1251 To access the Rife Research Ring see http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?home;ring=rifebiomed For historical accounts of Rife's research and other info, use a Java-enabled browser for Stan Truman's website at http://www.rife.org/ For the new Boehm Genome Computed Frequency List spreadsheet see Bruce Stenulson's site at http://showcase.cnd.com/althealth/index.htm or Stan's site at http://www.rife.org/ or a short text version at http://turf.home.mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 05:22:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27985; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:21:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:21:34 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Incandescent W and EM interference Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:32:56 -0500 Message-ID: <20000223133256781.AAA124 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"WbQWO.0.7r6.Uxziu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan writes: >Does anyone have an idea of how much power might be radiated as EM there? I don't see that discussed as part of the power balance... is that because it is presumed to be insignificant? > >Dan Quickert It was discussed briefly earlier, and we also looked at the possible EM from the strirring device, as well, I believe. Both were decided to be of not significant enough power to affect the measurements in a large way. Another possible source of EM may be the recombination beads themselves. There is some reason to think that they might be putting out EM, but this is also probably not a real big emitter. In light of the recent JL Naudin experiments, I think that the plasma systems can indeed affect measurements quite a bit. Plasmas don't appear to travel very far in liquid systems, and I think that they are quite well contained by the electrolyte for the short timeperiods that they exist. However in the gas systems, it is pretty obvious that they can traverse some distance, even to the point of being carried away from the device some distance, before they find a place to dump their energy. Since the plasmas carry their own magnetic fields around with them while they travel, they are perhaps the most unpredictable and least understood way to fool a meter. I have also read, but not confirmed, reports that these types of plasmas can even go through normal amounts of insulation material AND even shielding before releasing their energy. The W experiments are not susceptable to any of this, I don't _think_ unless the frequency exceeds the ability or voltage range of the measuring device, and with the sophistication of the measuring devices that Scott is using, the filter capicitors and inductors should be able to gather any stray stuff, and measure it properly. After seeing JL Naudin's work, however, all I can say is that if there are sparks and plasmas in the area, there is a reason to be distrusting of the meters, and extra care should be taken before pronouncing that a reading is accurate. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 05:31:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30309; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:31:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:31:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000223082614.007e7900 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:26:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Rife tech and killing cancer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000222214032.0080a9b0 world.std.com> <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YLGRw1.0.VP7.O4-iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:01 AM 2/23/00 -0600, thomas Malloy wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> Also, you dont "cure" cancer, you kill it. >> >I assume Mitchell that you are old enough to remember the expression, "we >had to destroy the village inorder to save it" ? Thomas: Yes, but what putatively applied to war does not apply to the war against cancer. A blow torch destroys cancer BUT the therapeutic gain factor (=TGF; that is, the enhancement ratio of tumor by whatever technique one uses, divided by the enhancement ratio against normal tissue by the same technique) is unity (1) and therefore a blow torch is NOT useful. The goal is to give the tumor the toughest treatment and to spare the person. We seek the highest TGF. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 05:34:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA31151; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:33:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:33:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000223082901.007eaa50 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:29:01 -0500 To: protech frii.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: information? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000222214032.0080a9b0 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X8sp9.0.ec7.z6-iu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:12 PM 2/22/00 -0700, R. Wormus wrote: >Mitchell, >Perhaps you could provid a few references or search criteria for relevant bielectormagnetic papers. There is a bewildering maze of information out there. >Thanks, >Ron W. OK, here are a few selected references involving electron enhancement of photodynamic action in the small area in which was investigated [along with pubs on the use of antimatter to investigate neoplasms, and some info on accelerated, and other, techniques of treatment, which are specific to the subject being discussed]. Hope that this limited list helps. Good luck. Mitchell Swartz ----------------------------- On the use of electricity against cancer and viruses: "Electron Enhancement of Photodynamic Action", M. R. Swartz, G. A. Clark, SPIE Advances in Photochemistry, 997, 84, (1988) "Electron Enhancement of Photodynamic Action, M. R. Swartz, G. A. Clark, SPIE Proc. Conference on Advances in Photochemistry, (1987) "The interaction of Hematoporphyrin Derivative, Light, and Ionizing Radiation in a Rat Glioma Model", H. Kostron, M. Swartz, D. Miller, R. Martuza, Cancer, 57: 964-970 (1986) "Distribution, retention, and phototoxicity of hematoporphyrin Derivative in a Rat Glioma - Intraneoplastic versus intraperiotoneal injection", H. Kostron, D. A. Bellnier, C-W Lin, M. R. Swartz, R. L. Martuza, J. Neurosurg, 64, 768-774 (1986) "Increased Levels of HPD in rat glioma following direct injection", R. Martuza, M. Swartz, J. Neurosurgery , March (1985) "Ionizing Radiation and Hematoporphyrin Derivative", M Swartz, H. Kostron, R. Martuza, A. M. Cohen, International Journal of Radiation Oncology, Biology, Physics, 9, Supp`1, 1060, (1983) "Phototherapy in a Rat Glioma Model", Kostron H., M. R Swartz, Martuza R., Proc. 7th International Congress for Neurosurgeons, Brussels, August (1983) "Hematoporphyrin, Ionizing Radiation & Visible Light : Effect upon Rat Glioma", M Swartz, Kostron H., Martuza R, Cohen A, Proc. American Society of Therapeutic Radiologists and Oncologists (1983) "Podophyllin Increases the Radioresponsiveness of Ionizing Radiation", M.R. Swartz, J.Rosenman, L.L.Gunderson, M. Katin, J.E. Munzenrider, Proc. Podophyllin Conference, Southampton UK (1981) "Mechanisms of Photodynamic Inactivation of Herpes Simplex Viruses: Comparison Between Methylene Blue, Light & Electricity and Hematoporphyrin & Light" L.E.Schnipper, A.Lewin, M. Swartz, C.S.Crumpacker, J. Clin Invest, Vol.65, Feb.,432-438 (1980) "Inactivation of Herpes Simplex Viruses with Methylene Blue, Light and Electricity", Swartz, M.R., L. Schnipper, A. Lewin, C. Crumpacker, Proc. of the Society of Experimental Biology and Medicine, 161, 204-209, (1979) "Inactivation of Herpes Simplex Viruses with Photochemical Dyes, Light and Electricity", Schnipper L, Lewin A., M.Swartz & C. Crumpacker, 4th International Congress on Virology, 132 (1978) "Inactivation of HSV with photoactive dyes, light , and electricity", M. Swartz, L. Schnipper, and C. Crumpacker, 3rd International Conference on Herpes and Cancer '78 Herpes Workshop, 33 (1978) "Inactivation of Herpes Simplex Viruses hematoporphyrin and light" Proceedings of the Society of Experimental Biology and Medicine, L.E.Schnipper, A. Lewin, M. Swartz, C.S. Crumpacker "Inactivation of Herpes Simplex Viruses with Methylene Blue, Light and Electricity" Schnipper L, Lewin A., M.Swartz & C. Crumpacker Proceedings 3rd Herpes Virus Workshop Cambridge England 480 (1978) "Electrical Inactivation of Herpes Simplex Viruses - Types 1 and 2", M. Swartz, C. Crumpacker, Proc. 2nd International Conference on Herpes and Cancer, (1977) US PATENT 4,181,128: Virus Inactivation Applicator and the Like US PATENT 4,305,390: Method for Generating Oxygen in an Excited Electronic State and Inactivation of Microorganisms US PATENT 4,402,318: METHOD OF INACTIVATION OF VIRUSES, BACTERIA, ETC. IN VITRO, AND PRODUCTION OF VACCINES US PATENT 4,407,282: METHOD AND APPLICATOR FOR GENERATING SUPEROXIDE AND HYDROXL IONS IN SOLUTION ----------------------------- On the use of antimatter (positrons) to investigate cancer: "PET imaging in Oncology: The MGH Experience", G. Brownell, A-E. Kairento, M. Swartz, Seminars in Nuclear Medicine, 15, 201-209, April (1985) "PET imaging in Oncology: The MGH Experience", G. Brownell, A-E. Kairento, M. Swartz, Arch. Nucl Medicine May (1985) "Comparative Measurement of Regional Blood Flow, oxygen and glucose utilisation in soft tissue tumour of rabbit with positron imaging" A-E. Kairento, G. Brownell, D. Elmaleh, M. Swartz, Br. J. of Radiology, 58, 637-643, (1985) "Positron Emission Tomography in the Study of Soft Tissue Sarcomas", Brownell, G, Kairento A, M Swartz, S Weise, Proc. 30th Annual Society of Nuclear Medicine Meeting, St Louis, June (1983) "The Role of Positron Emission Tomography in Radiation Medicine", M Swartz, A-L Kairento, G Brownell, S Weise, Proc. American Society of Therapeutic Radiologists and Oncologists Meeting, Orlando, October (1982) "Regional Blood Flow in Soft Tissue Sarcomas" M R Swartz, Kairento A-L, Brownell, G. L., International Journal of Radiation Oncology, Biology and Physics (1982) ----------------------------- On the uses of hyperfractionation, and other techniques against cancer: "Successful Management of Esophagopericardial Fistula", C. Naggar, P. Daly, M. Burke, M. Swartz, Heart and Lung, 16, 1, 47-49 "Sandwich Radiotherapy for carcinoma of the rectum and colon" M. Swartz, T.C. Lo, M. Veidenheimer, D. Shoetz J. Coller, Proceedings of the 27th ASTRO Meeting, International Journal of Radiation Oncology, Biology, and Physics, 1, Sup 1, 175 (1985) "Radiotherapy for Cancer of the Head and Neck", T.Lo, F. Salzman, and M. Swartz, Otolaryngologic Clinics of North America, 18, Aug 1985, 521-531 (1985) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 09:34:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20252; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:32:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:32:47 -0800 Message-ID: <38B41A39.96DEFF45 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:35:00 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rife tech and killing cancer References: <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AxTgu.0.Ly4._c1ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Thomas and Jean-Pierre, this is just the kind of information I need. It is truly amazing what can be found on the internet with a simple question. My interest has two sources. The most immediate is a family pet who is dying of lymphatic cancer. My long term interest stems from my continued interest in alternative methods of healing. I have learn to trust the medical-industrial complex just so far before I go my own way toward a cure, an approach which has kept me in good health for many years. My interest in the Rife approach was recently initiated by an ad from NatureTronics promising to sell a Rife generator for $2000. Unfortunately, the structure of the sales pitch suggests a scam. The extensive information you all have kindly provided will keep me busy for awhile and may solve my problem. I will keep in touch. Ed Storms thomas Malloy wrote: > >At 06:59 PM 2/22/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > >>To all, > >> > >>Does anyone have any experience with or know > >>anything about the Dr. Royal Rife machine for > >>curing cancer? Apparently, this doctor developed > >>a device which is able to destroy the pathogens > >>which produce cancer and other diseases. This > >>apparatus is now for sale. > > Ed; > > The parts are for sale, as is the book to assemble them, go > http://www.rt66.com/~rifetech/ , My business partner and I have a long time > interest in this technology. While the medical mafia will not tollerate > interferance in it's cancer business, there is a potential market in > profolactic irridiation of meat to destroy salamonella and other pathogenic > organisms. If you are discrete, this technology can also be used to extend > the lives of one's friends. > > I located an engineer who told me that he could build a machine that could > be used to treat meat, but the radiation would "mess up the meat" similar > to gamma ray irridiation. He went on to say that the radiation from a Bare > version of a Rife machine accelerated the aging process. I noticed in Dr. > Bare's website that continued exposure to the Rife machine is necessary > inorder to keep the cancer from comming back. > > If you follow the links from Dr. Bare's page you will see a picture of the > tube which is the basis of Dr. Bare's patent. The version that my partner > has uses two metal plates. one of the electrodes in the tube is angled > relative to the flow of the electrical energy. I'm wondering if the energy > produced is all electromagnetic or if a scalar component is formed. > > I'm wondering what your interest in cancer stems from. I have been > investigating the subject for some time and have come to the following > conclusions: When you kill the cancer by chemicals and hard irridiation, > you often times weaken the body to the point were it also dies, this is to > be avoided. The body will destroy cancer on it's own if it is cleansed and > balanced properly. This includes a Kelly liver purge, adjusting the body > fluids to an alkaline balance by proper nutrition, getting plenty of oxygen > by H2O2 or a hyperbaric chamber, getting plenty of antioxidants by eating > the right combinations of raw fruits and vegetables. drinking pure water, > preferably from a living water machine. I am planning on posting my book on > reversing the effects of the aging process just as soon as I get around to > it. If your need is urgent, and what I just wrote makes sense to you, send > me your snailmail address and I will send you a 2nd edition of my book. > > However, before > >>investing in one of these, I would like to get > >>some information about other people's experience, > >>if any. > >> > >>Ed Storms > >> > >> > Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > Also, you dont "cure" cancer, you kill it. > > > I assume Mitchell that you are old enough to remember the expression, "we > had to destroy the village inorder to save it" ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 09:57:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27548; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:53:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:53:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000223125251.007a58e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:52:51 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Yomiuri: CEPCO cancels Mie Pref. N-plant Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YoiAx3.0.Jk6.7w1ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Yomiuri newspaper devoted a couple of pages to a major nuclear power story. A power plant which has been in the planning stage since 1963 (!) was cancelled in Mie prefecture after the governor put pressure on the power company. Public opinion in Japan has been running against fission power since the accidents at the Monju fast breeder reactor in 1995, and at the Tokaimura fuel preparation plant in 1999. Those were both part of the breeder reactor program. It seems a little unfair to me to be upset about regular fission plants because of mismanagement in the breeder program. There is a brief article at: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/index-e.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 10:07:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01864; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:06:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:06:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000223130542.0079e580 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:05:42 -0500 To: Akira Kawasaki , "vortex-l eskimo.com" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Palladium sourcing In-Reply-To: <38B16D33.F9E34588 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TNbk21.0.2T.A62ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >Tanaka Kinzoku KK has made a web site identifying itself, more widely >now, as Tanaka Precious Metals Group . . . Kikinzoku means "Precious Metals" Kinzoku is just "metal(s)" KK means "Incorporated" (Or "Kabushiki-gaisha," which for some obscure reason, they like to write as if it was pronounced "kabushiki-kaisha." Weird!) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 10:20:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06733; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:18:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:18:44 -0800 From: jrneer isp800.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:18:35 -0500 Message-Id: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Subject: Deuterium associations inside CF sample Resent-Message-ID: <"ggUqq1.0.1f1.3I2ju" mx1> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I ran across this comment from Dr. Storms in the archive (mid 1999) while searching for 'mechanism' describing deuterium activity inside a CF sample without success. .... However, this field has several unique problems. We do not understand the basic mechanism and we do not have funding to try every idea. .... I understand this mechanism remark to refer to 'no accepted physics theory explanation' of CF but does it also mean there is no basic understanding within the CF community of, for example, where (on Pd, off Pd) and what (polarized atom, deuterium molecule) becomes 'active'? Is there a posted discussion of this type reasoning? Thanks. John Neergaard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 10:43:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12852; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:35:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:35:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:34:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: information? Resent-Message-ID: <"sR-FF.0.k83.RX2ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To all, > >Does anyone have any experience with or know >anything about the Dr. Royal Rife machine for >curing cancer? Apparently, this doctor developed >a device which is able to destroy the pathogens >which produce cancer and other diseases. This >apparatus is now for sale. However, before >investing in one of these, I would like to get >some information about other people's experience, >if any. > >Ed Storms ***{I have no experience with the above mentioned machine, but I have known a number of technically oriented people who have tried to fight cancer by means of off-the-wall mechanical approaches of one sort or another, all without success. The reason for that lack of success, I think, is that the approach is based on the same fallacy which renders traditional medicine so inept at dealing with cancer--to wit: the notion that the human body is a machine that is well understood and, as a result, is capable of being dealt with in much the same way as an automobile or any other mechanical device that is not working properly. Since the presumption is that all is understood, and hence that the wherewithal to defeat disease lies outside the body rather than within it, medical practitioners do not hesitate to remove parts, to insert mechanical devices, chemicals, etc. Unfortunately, the fact is that the attitude of medicine toward the body is wrong, and worse: it is a dishonest pretense. They do not, in fact, understand 1/1000th of what goes on in the human body, either during disease or in a state of health, and they comprehend virtually none of the effects of the toxic chemicals which they routinely introduce. The result, in the case of long term deteriorative processes such as cancer, is often disaster. In the above connection, I will cite one example: about 5 years ago my wife, a long-time smoker, acquired a persistent cough which subsequently turned into pneumonia. In the course of treating the pneumonia, the doctor did an x-ray, and was alarmed to note a large mass in her lower right lung. He then sent her to a cancer specialist, and, after a battery of additional tests, the specializt called us both into his office to hear the results. The discussion began with the posting of a number of CAT scan photos on a wall mounted display, each of which showed a section through her right lung, in the lower third of which could be seen a distinctive mass about the size of a tangerine. The verdict: advanced lung cancer. The recommendation: removal of most of her right lung, followed by an aggressive course of radiation and chemotherapy. When I asked him what the chances were that that would solve the problem, he replied that they were not good, since the cancer was well advanced. When I asked him how long she had, based on his experience, he said probably less than a year. When I asked about the survival rates of people who had conditions like hers who refused treatment, the very thought appeared to irritate him. He puffed up visibly, and in an icy tone said: "The only reasonable approach is to begin an aggressive course of treatment immediately, and hope for the best!" Now this is one of those situations where you had to be there, so I have no hope of conveying the guy's manner to you, but suffice it to say that Carol and I looked at each other at that point, and we both chuckled. (How is that possible, given the gravity of the situation? Simple: we both consider medical doctors to be bozos. We deal with them for one reason only: because they have a monopoly on things which we sometimes need. They have zero credibility with us, and, thus, we were not frightened by his grave prognostications.) Needless to say, our amusement seemed to irritate him even more than my question, and the conversation went basically nowhere from there. He was single mindedly fixated on hacking out her right lung, burning her with lethal radiation, and shooting her body full of poison, just as his intellectual predecessors had bled people to death to "cure" them, and cut holes in their skulls to let "evil spirits" escape. Result: there was no basis for a dialogue between us, and, after listening to his pitch for a few more minutes, we told him we would think about what he had said, and made our exit. As we drove home from the doctor's office, I outlined the following plan: (1) She needed to quit smoking immediately. (2) She needed to operate under the assumption that her immune system would destroy the cancer if it could, and, thus, that it was failing to get something which it needed in order to do that. Thus she needed to begin to study the things done by people who had cured themselves of cancer, in order to identify what those needed inputs might be which her body required to defend itself. (3) We would then discuss each such idea, evaluate it in terms of reasonableness and safety, and either implement it or not on that basis. (4) To obtain a flow of information from which such ideas might be extracted, we needed to subscribe to a variety of alternative health publications, taking care to focus on those put out by people who took a reasoned approach to their subject matter, and who obviously did not care whether their ideas passed the litmus test of orthodoxy. The alternative to such a course of action was for her to trust the doctors and, in all likelihood, die. After a lengthy discussion, Carol opted to refuse treatment and see if we could defeat this thing ourselves. The next week, when she went to her personal physician for a scheduled follow-up appointment and outlined this plan, her doctor became adamant. He informed her that, based on a discussion with the oncologist, it was his opinion that refusing treatment was tantamount to suicide, and that if she was determined on such a course, the implication was that she placed no value on his advice, and in that case he saw no point in continuing to see her in the future. At that point, I suppose, Carol was supposed to say: "You are the expert, and I therefore defer to your judgment." Instead, she said: "I'm sorry you feel that way, but my mind is made up." Thus the bridges were burned that had connected us to traditional medicine. (Or so it seemed at the time.) Carol quit smoking and, over a period of months, we defined a complex regimen involving extensive vitamin, mineral, protein, and amino acid supplementation, plus the taking of various herbs, and she gradually began to feel good again. After about a year, she wanted to go back to the doctor and get a CAT scan, to see if the tumor was reduced or absent, but I talked her out of it. "If you go back in there, you simply give them another shot at scaring you into doing something stupid. You have made your decision, and you are feeling much better now than you did then, so stick with it and see what happens." Result: she did not see her doctor again for about two years. When she went back to him at that time concerning an unrelated matter, she fully expected that he would toss her out of his office as soon as he saw her. Instead, however, he behaved as if he had never told her that he didn't want to see her again, and commented that he was amazed she was doing so well. His only specific reference to the earlier episode was this: "You have now survived twice as long as any of my other patients who had your condition, so I guess your decision was not foolish after all." Another year went by, and she continued to improve, so we decided it was time for her to get another CAT scan, to see how her lungs looked. Result: the tumor was gone. Her lungs were clean as a whistle, with no trace of the mass that had been there before. What does it all mean? Simply this: as long as your immune system is healthy, you will be cancer free. If you are not cancer free, it is because your immune system is not getting the inputs it needs to do its job. As we age, of course, bodily systems have a tendency to fail, and the task of keeping the immune system healty becomes more and more difficult. Nevertheless, in cases where the prospects offered by traditional treatments seem grim, such an approach remains the best--and sometimes the only--hope, even for persons of advanced age. That's the way I see it, at any rate. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 11:25:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30047; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:23:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:23:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000223141713.007e5e80 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:17:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Rife tech and killing cancer In-Reply-To: <38B41A39.96DEFF45 ix.netcom.com> References: <38B33F10.591369B0 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BLqO12.0.PL7.NE3ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:35 AM 2/23/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Thanks Thomas and Jean-Pierre, this is just the kind of information I need. >It is truly amazing what can be found on the internet with a simple question. > >My interest has two sources. The most immediate is a family pet who is dying >of lymphatic cancer. My long term interest stems from my continued interest >in alternative methods of healing. I have learn to trust the >medical-industrial complex just so far before I go my own way toward a cure, >an approach which has kept me in good health for many years. My interest in >the Rife approach was recently initiated by an ad from NatureTronics promising >to sell a Rife generator for $2000. Unfortunately, the structure of the sales >pitch suggests a scam. The extensive information you all have kindly provided >will keep me busy for awhile and may solve my problem. I will keep in touch. > >Ed Storms > Sorry that the informational references were not of help, but much of the data was on lymphoma [which can be localized, or disseminated at diagnosis (making it a leukemia)]. Lymphoma, BTW, is not a cancer, and like all such neoplasms tissue diagnosis is of prime importance. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 11:25:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30562; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:24:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:24:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000223141821.007e8bf0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:18:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample In-Reply-To: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KoqiU2.0.PT7.fF3ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John: There are several theories which agree with conventional physics; for the surmounting of coulomb barrier, and for the loading, and for the breakdown of the material. Less well understood are the theories regarding the transfer of energy from the excited nucleus to the lattice, in which the deuterons are located. The postings are minimal, but the literature is rich in this matter, with disagreement also regarding the site, and its state, where the desired reactions occur. Mitchell Swartz At 01:18 PM 2/23/00 -0500, jrneer isp800.com wrote: >I ran across this comment from Dr. Storms in the archive (mid 1999) while searching >for 'mechanism' describing deuterium activity inside a CF sample without success. > > .... However, this field has several unique problems. > We do not understand the basic mechanism and we do not have funding to >try every idea. .... > > I understand this mechanism remark to refer to 'no accepted physics theory explanation' >of CF but does it also mean there is no basic understanding within the CF community of, >for example, where (on Pd, off Pd) and what (polarized atom, deuterium molecule) >becomes 'active'? > > Is there a posted discussion of this type reasoning? > > Thanks. > > John Neergaard > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 11:46:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03660; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:35:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:35:55 -0800 Message-ID: <38B43711.A2AA4524 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:38:13 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: information? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EhYB72.0.2v.RQ3ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, although I may disagree with you about some subjects, you have my great respect for your approach to the events you experienced. It takes great courage to buck the medical-industrial complex when the life of a loved one is at risk. Occasionally, if one is lucky, a good and competent doctor is found. However, most of the time only technicians pretending to be doctors are available. You had the courage and skill to do what any doctor should have known and helped you implement. Unfortunately, we are largely on our own in solving major health problems. As you have argued, our own knowledge and responsibility for action are the only two things we can count on in this life. Best regards, Ed Storms Mitchell Jones wrote: snip > In the above connection, I will cite one example: about 5 years ago my > wife, a long-time smoker, acquired a persistent cough which subsequently > turned into pneumonia. In the course of treating the pneumonia, the doctor > did an x-ray, and was alarmed to note a large mass in her lower right lung. > He then sent her to a cancer specialist, and, after a battery of additional > tests, the specializt called us both into his office to hear the results. > The discussion began with the posting of a number of CAT scan photos on a > wall mounted display, each of which showed a section through her right > lung, in the lower third of which could be seen a distinctive mass about > the size of a tangerine. The verdict: advanced lung cancer. The > recommendation: removal of most of her right lung, followed by an > aggressive course of radiation and chemotherapy. When I asked him what the > chances were that that would solve the problem, he replied that they were > not good, since the cancer was well advanced. When I asked him how long she > had, based on his experience, he said probably less than a year. When I > asked about the survival rates of people who had conditions like hers who > refused treatment, the very thought appeared to irritate him. He puffed up > visibly, and in an icy tone said: "The only reasonable approach is to begin > an aggressive course of treatment immediately, and hope for the best!" > > Now this is one of those situations where you had to be there, so I have no > hope of conveying the guy's manner to you, but suffice it to say that Carol > and I looked at each other at that point, and we both chuckled. (How is > that possible, given the gravity of the situation? Simple: we both consider > medical doctors to be bozos. We deal with them for one reason only: because > they have a monopoly on things which we sometimes need. They have zero > credibility with us, and, thus, we were not frightened by his grave > prognostications.) Needless to say, our amusement seemed to irritate him > even more than my question, and the conversation went basically nowhere > from there. He was single mindedly fixated on hacking out her right lung, > burning her with lethal radiation, and shooting her body full of poison, > just as his intellectual predecessors had bled people to death to "cure" > them, and cut holes in their skulls to let "evil spirits" escape. Result: > there was no basis for a dialogue between us, and, after listening to his > pitch for a few more minutes, we told him we would think about what he had > said, and made our exit. > > As we drove home from the doctor's office, I outlined the following plan: > > (1) She needed to quit smoking immediately. > > (2) She needed to operate under the assumption that her immune system would > destroy the cancer if it could, and, thus, that it was failing to get > something which it needed in order to do that. Thus she needed to begin to > study the things done by people who had cured themselves of cancer, in > order to identify what those needed inputs might be which her body required > to defend itself. > > (3) We would then discuss each such idea, evaluate it in terms of > reasonableness and safety, and either implement it or not on that basis. > > (4) To obtain a flow of information from which such ideas might be > extracted, we needed to subscribe to a variety of alternative health > publications, taking care to focus on those put out by people who took a > reasoned approach to their subject matter, and who obviously did not care > whether their ideas passed the litmus test of orthodoxy. > > The alternative to such a course of action was for her to trust the doctors > and, in all likelihood, die. After a lengthy discussion, Carol opted to > refuse treatment and see if we could defeat this thing ourselves. The next > week, when she went to her personal physician for a scheduled follow-up > appointment and outlined this plan, her doctor became adamant. He informed > her that, based on a discussion with the oncologist, it was his opinion > that refusing treatment was tantamount to suicide, and that if she was > determined on such a course, the implication was that she placed no value > on his advice, and in that case he saw no point in continuing to see her in > the future. At that point, I suppose, Carol was supposed to say: "You are > the expert, and I therefore defer to your judgment." Instead, she said: > "I'm sorry you feel that way, but my mind is made up." > > Thus the bridges were burned that had connected us to traditional medicine. > (Or so it seemed at the time.) Carol quit smoking and, over a period of > months, we defined a complex regimen involving extensive vitamin, mineral, > protein, and amino acid supplementation, plus the taking of various herbs, > and she gradually began to feel good again. After about a year, she wanted > to go back to the doctor and get a CAT scan, to see if the tumor was > reduced or absent, but I talked her out of it. "If you go back in there, > you simply give them another shot at scaring you into doing something > stupid. You have made your decision, and you are feeling much better now > than you did then, so stick with it and see what happens." Result: she did > not see her doctor again for about two years. When she went back to him at > that time concerning an unrelated matter, she fully expected that he would > toss her out of his office as soon as he saw her. Instead, however, he > behaved as if he had never told her that he didn't want to see her again, > and commented that he was amazed she was doing so well. His only specific > reference to the earlier episode was this: "You have now survived twice as > long as any of my other patients who had your condition, so I guess your > decision was not foolish after all." > > Another year went by, and she continued to improve, so we decided it was > time for her to get another CAT scan, to see how her lungs looked. > > Result: the tumor was gone. Her lungs were clean as a whistle, with no > trace of the mass that had been there before. > > What does it all mean? Simply this: as long as your immune system is > healthy, you will be cancer free. If you are not cancer free, it is because > your immune system is not getting the inputs it needs to do its job. As we > age, of course, bodily systems have a tendency to fail, and the task of > keeping the immune system healty becomes more and more difficult. > Nevertheless, in cases where the prospects offered by traditional > treatments seem grim, such an approach remains the best--and sometimes the > only--hope, even for persons of advanced age. > > That's the way I see it, at any rate. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 11:47:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07968; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:45:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:45:54 -0800 Message-ID: <38B43973.81DFC940 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:48:22 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample References: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dBulg2.0.Oy1.nZ3ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, I know of no posted discussion of this question, but some information is in print. Unfortunately, very little experimental understanding of the nuclear-active-state (NAS) is available, most being only theory. This problem exists because the NAS occurs only in small, isolated regions and because no one has the money or tools to examine these regions in detail, especially before they are made visible by their destruction. Clearly, the NA regions are very difficult to construct and are influenced by various impurities. Depending on who is doing the talking, many models have been proposed but little agreement exists. This is the major reason the effect has been so difficult to reproduce. Ed Storms jrneer isp800.com wrote: > I ran across this comment from Dr. Storms in the archive (mid 1999) while searching > for 'mechanism' describing deuterium activity inside a CF sample without success. > > .... However, this field has several unique problems. > We do not understand the basic mechanism and we do not have funding to > try every idea. .... > > I understand this mechanism remark to refer to 'no accepted physics theory explanation' > of CF but does it also mean there is no basic understanding within the CF community of, > for example, where (on Pd, off Pd) and what (polarized atom, deuterium molecule) > becomes 'active'? > > Is there a posted discussion of this type reasoning? > > Thanks. > > John Neergaard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 12:23:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22544; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:22:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:22:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38B43973.81DFC940 ix.netcom.com> References: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:10:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample Resent-Message-ID: <"5xPd52.0.AW5.064ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >John, >I know of no posted discussion of this question, but some information is >in print. >Unfortunately, very little experimental understanding of the >nuclear-active-state (NAS) is >available, most being only theory. This problem exists because the NAS >occurs only in small, >isolated regions and because no one has the money or tools to examine >these regions in detail, >especially before they are made visible by their destruction. ***{This reminds me of something I have wondered about in the past. In cases such as the Mizuno cell, where microcraters appear on the cathode surface after an "over unity" episode, it can be argued that these areas of surface destruction are the result of electric arcs rather than of some sort of nuclear event. However, in cells such as yours, where the electrolysis current and the voltage are much less, do similar microcraters appear on active cathodes? If they do not, that would seem to argue against the nuclear interpretation and in favor of the arc explanation. --MJ}*** Clearly, the NA regions are >very difficult to construct and are influenced by various impurities. >Depending on who is >doing the talking, many models have been proposed but little agreement >exists. This is the >major reason the effect has been so difficult to reproduce. > >Ed Storms > >jrneer isp800.com wrote: > >> I ran across this comment from Dr. Storms in the archive (mid 1999) >>while searching >> for 'mechanism' describing deuterium activity inside a CF sample without >>success. >> >> .... However, this field has several unique problems. >> We do not understand the basic mechanism and we do not have funding to >> try every idea. .... >> >> I understand this mechanism remark to refer to 'no accepted physics >>theory explanation' >> of CF but does it also mean there is no basic understanding within the >>CF community of, >> for example, where (on Pd, off Pd) and what (polarized atom, deuterium >>molecule) >> becomes 'active'? >> >> Is there a posted discussion of this type reasoning? >> >> Thanks. >> >> John Neergaard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 13:09:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27227; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:01:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:01:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:00:58 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200002232100.WAA10257 front2.grolier.fr> X-Sender: jplentin pop3.club-internet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: Mills & Vigier Resent-Message-ID: <"Lzm112.0.Df6.hg4ju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all ! I remember, from early issues of Infinite Energy, that French quantum physicist Jean-Pierre Vigier (long-time notorious non-conformist and nevertheless editor of Physics Letter A) had a theory about fractional quantum states and "shrunken hydrogen atom", which was supposed to explain some cold fusion effects and seemed to parallel Randell Mills "hydrino". I hope to interview Vigier soon, for a science magazine, and will surely ask him about Mills and CF. I'd like to my homework first, but a multi-search on the net with Copernic led to surprisingly small results, mostly related to non-locality, wave/particle esoterica and quantum gravitation. I guess a trip to the library is the next step. I wonder if anyone can point me to Vigier's papers about teenie weeny hydrogen atom. Thanks for any tip ! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 13:20:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29102; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:14:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:14:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000223161324.0079b610 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:13:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample In-Reply-To: References: <38B43973.81DFC940 ix.netcom.com> <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vGIxV1.0.T67.Rs4ju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{This reminds me of something I have wondered about in the past. In >cases such as the Mizuno cell, where microcraters appear on the cathode >surface after an "over unity" episode, it can be argued that these areas of >surface destruction are the result of electric arcs rather than of some >sort of nuclear event. However, in cells such as yours, where the >electrolysis current and the voltage are much less, do similar microcraters >appear on active cathodes? Ordinary, low-powered electrolysis packs a terrific punch. It can cause craters, holes, cracks, and bent, warped and twisted cathodes. It can slowly disintegrate a cathode. Decades ago it was shown that ordinary electrolysis can "dig out" a single metal grain, rotate it, and leave it in the lattice! Oriani showed a SEM of this. When conditions are right, electrolysis can concentrate a fantastic amount of energy in an area a few atoms wide, according to studies made in the 1970s by Maoka and Enyo, described in the Mizuno book. This concentrated power may or may not have some connection with CF. It seems intuitively likely that it does. CF can cause damage beyond ordinary electrolysis, however: especially transmutation and concentrated heat. The heat can vaporize the cathode in an area 1 to 10 microns across, leaving the surroundings intact. Examples with gold cathodes are shown in the Mizuno book. This cannot be caused by a chemical event, because chemical reactions are slow and they have low power density, so the heat from them would "spread out" through the lattice too quickly. Chemical heat might melt the whole cathode, but not one tiny spot. The material explodes out from inside the cathode leaving a round cavity, so I doubt this could be caused by electric arcs, or sputtering, which gouges chunks out of the surface as far as I know. I believe similar dramatic melting and transmutation have been shown with gas loaded systems that produced excess heat, especially with Ararta, which is essentially gas-loaded palladium. That's a quiet, low energy process. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 14:01:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24080; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:58:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:58:36 -0800 Message-ID: <38B458D6.1BF2E6B7 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:01:58 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: information? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7q1Vs2.0.Au5.CW5ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > In the above connection, I will cite one example: about 5 years ago my > wife, a long-time smoker, acquired a persistent cough which subsequently > turned into pneumonia. Great story, Mitchell! I see you have the same respect for the medical profession as my wife and I. One important note. Unlike the circulatory system, the lymphatic system has no active pump. Lymphatic circulation is accomplished by muscular contraction. Look at the location of the lymph nodes. Exercise, simply walking briskly every day, does wonders for the immune system. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 15:30:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10366; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:55:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:55:15 -0800 Message-ID: <38B465CE.F1D4E547 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:57:27 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample References: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wsYq.0.pX2.JL6ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >John, > >I know of no posted discussion of this question, but some information is > >in print. > >Unfortunately, very little experimental understanding of the > >nuclear-active-state (NAS) is > >available, most being only theory. This problem exists because the NAS > >occurs only in small, > >isolated regions and because no one has the money or tools to examine > >these regions in detail, > >especially before they are made visible by their destruction. > > ***{This reminds me of something I have wondered about in the past. In > cases such as the Mizuno cell, where microcraters appear on the cathode > surface after an "over unity" episode, it can be argued that these areas of > surface destruction are the result of electric arcs rather than of some > sort of nuclear event. However, in cells such as yours, where the > electrolysis current and the voltage are much less, do similar microcraters > appear on active cathodes? If they do not, that would seem to argue against > the nuclear interpretation and in favor of the arc explanation. --MJ}*** Similar microcraters are seen after electrolysis. These range from a few microns to tens of microns in size and show high concentrations of certain elements on their flanks. Although evidence of nuclear activity is apparent at these locations, people have seen apparent nuclear ash at other, less affected locations. It seems reasonable to assume that some nuclear activity occurs in such small regions that melting does not occur while larger active regions are melted because of the high (current-density)/(surface-area) ratio. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 16:04:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02451; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:02:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:02:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:03:39 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent In-reply-to: <18.11d222d.25e4a0f0 aol.com> X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200002240004.RAA07100 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nyHWN2.0.Dc.TK7ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:33 PM 2/22/00 -0500, Tom Stolper wrote: > >In a message dated 02/21/2000 10:03:59 PM, Vince Cockeram wrote, re the >discussion on SPF: > ><< ...most are screaming and foaming at the mouth, >extremely upset that the patent was issued. >> > >Mills' devices do work, and he's come a long way since 1991 toward making >them marketable. Having an issued patent on something probably helps to >market it, but I doubt that will have any effect on the scientific debate >until the scientists involved can buy it themselves. Maybe the skeptics on >SPF are afraid that in a year or two, they'll know someone somewhere whose >company or lab has actually bought and used one of Mills' products. > >Tom Stolper > Skeptics, yes. Afraid?? You have to be kidding! If the Mills stuff turns out to be real, I am sure they would like to buy one of those 5kw generators or 1000 mile batteries just as eagerly as you or I would. Not only that, but it would open new and exciting branches of physics / chemistry / materials science and God knows what else for research, development, and commercialization. Something for everyone, including those "establishment physicists". Let's hope it's true, but I'm not going to quit my day job to set up a dealership in selling those batteries just yet. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 17:10:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23216; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:08:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:08:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38B465CE.F1D4E547 ix.netcom.com> References: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:10:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYqqi.0.gg5.TI8ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >John, >> >I know of no posted discussion of this question, but some information is >> >in print. >> >Unfortunately, very little experimental understanding of the >> >nuclear-active-state (NAS) is >> >available, most being only theory. This problem exists because the NAS >> >occurs only in small, >> >isolated regions and because no one has the money or tools to examine >> >these regions in detail, >> >especially before they are made visible by their destruction. >> >> ***{This reminds me of something I have wondered about in the past. In >> cases such as the Mizuno cell, where microcraters appear on the cathode >> surface after an "over unity" episode, it can be argued that these areas of >> surface destruction are the result of electric arcs rather than of some >> sort of nuclear event. However, in cells such as yours, where the >> electrolysis current and the voltage are much less, do similar microcraters >> appear on active cathodes? If they do not, that would seem to argue against >> the nuclear interpretation and in favor of the arc explanation. --MJ}*** > >Similar microcraters are seen after electrolysis. These range from a few >microns >to tens of microns in size and show high concentrations of certain elements on >their flanks. Although evidence of nuclear activity is apparent at these >locations, people have seen apparent nuclear ash at other, less affected >locations. ***{In your specific case, have you found that the surfaces of the active cathodes show noticeably more pitting, given equal use, than do the inactive ones? --MJ}*** It seems reasonable to assume that some nuclear activity occurs in >such small regions that melting does not occur while larger active regions are >melted because of the high (current-density)/(surface-area) ratio. > >Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 17:23:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28710; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:22:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:22:11 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Yomiuri: CEPCO cancels Mie Pref. N-plant Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:33:33 -0500 Message-ID: <20000224013333500.AAA279 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA28602 Resent-Message-ID: <"3IjKY1.0.W07.2V8ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, More local nuclear irresponsibility. http://ens.lycos.com/ens/feb2000/2000L-02-11-07.html I just read of a British nuclear processing plant that was found to completely lacking in their safe handling of materials, but can't lay my hands on the URL right now. Below is an amazing announcement from George Wiseman's Browns Gas Group. The US DOE is actually suppressing technologies that neutralize nuclear waste. What is it with the DOE anyway? > BROWN'S GAS NEWS (top) >   > Atomic Energy Canada has successfully tested Brown's Gas to neutralize > radioactive waste; using full scientific protocol. Further tests are > being done soon. The USA DOE tested Brown's Gas and found the same > result, but wouldn't validate their findings for public domain. >   > Brown's Gas technology continues to be developed to industry > standards. The electrolyzers are being modified to allow Brown's Gas > to be a direct replacement gas for current industry equipment. People > who are using our machines (bought from us or built themselves) are > telling us the changes they'd like to see. This input will be > reflected in the next generation of machines. >   > We are cooperating with organizations that are testing the Brown's Gas > characteristics and it's usefulness in their applications. There have > been some surprising developments which I will detail as soon as I get > permission. >   > ===================================================== Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 18:43:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA20583; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:32:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:32:19 -0800 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:37:23 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <20000222121809812.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jeIjQ2.0.R15.lW9ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y There is no specific paradigm in particle and condensed matter sciences that excludes hydrinos or specifically states hydrinos cannot exist. In the same manner, there is no specific avenue of particle physics which states they do exist. Experimentalism will yield the answer. On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > Tom writes: > > >As Paul Grant, Robert L. Park, and Philip W. Anderson have been at pains to > >point out, the current paradigm says that Mills' hydrinos can't exist. But > >he's shown that they do, so he's gone beyond the current paradigm in that > >respect alone. > > Just for the sake of discussion, I'm going to parse this, and offer the > misgivings that I have at the moment with the Mills phenomenon, based upon > what I've observed so far. I should explain that I read his initial > material over four years ago, and it didn't make much sense to me at the > time. I should re-read it, but I don't think I'll have the time. As for > Grant and Anderson, I don't know them, or what their reasons for objection > to the granting of the Mills patent. Park, I have read, but I really don't > take anything that he writes as being serious. He seems to be like some > sort of stand-up comic science journalist for the APS Journal that just has > a way with below the belt one-liners. To give him some credit, he is funny > sometimes, but I don't think he has any stake in being accurate about > anything, nor does he appear to aspire to do any science. I've never seen > him propose anything in serious way or even be an advocate of any particular > school of thought. > > >Mills doesn't claim superluminal speeds for any of his devices, real or > >hypothetical, and he doesn't think that room-temperature superconductivity is > >possible. According to Mills, the highest possible Tc is about 180 K. > > You are probably more familiar with the limitations of his claims regarding > the superluminal speeds and the room temp SC. He should re-examine them, > though, in light of the published findings. Grigorov (sp) of MPI has been > heavily funded by the US Air Force for his high temp, SC plastic thin films > based on some pretty conclusive evidence. The measurement of superliminal > speeds have also been published in the peer review literature utilizing > carbon nanotube fibers. I don't remember the researcher names, but it has > been within the last few years that I read this. I guess what I'm saying is > that if Mills' GUT doesn't allow for these things, then there may be > something wrong with the theory. > > >Words almost fail me. Fred does know a lot about chemistry and other > >scientific matters, but Mills is in a different league. > > Your words have failed you, as I haven't seen any serious attempt at the > refutation of Fred's claims so far. Your math has been completely > non-existent, so I can only conclude that either you don't understand Mills' > math, or you don't understand Fred's, but you've made no effort to explain > your reasons for thinking that Mills' math and GUT is superior. As for > Mills being in another league, well, I'm just not convinced. Fred has 50 > years in the lab, has patents of his own that are understandable, has > participated in some largescale, successful government programs of enormous > complexity, and Randell Mills has not. > > Like I said, this is just for the sake of discussion, and not a direct > attack on you or Mills. Mills is obviously an extraordinary and > accomplished person in his own right, but the circumstances surrounding his > prominence at the moment are possibly due more to good PR packaging (the > Scottish, married, hardworking, bootstrapped himself off the farm, Edisonian > meme-a-like), and perhaps some good market timing, than to any real > advancements in Science. The reason I say this is that we've seen elements > of the same patterns of behavior before with other people of very high > quality that almost force this line of questioning. > > Consider also the following: Mills makes the claim for excess heat, and has > it verified by some labs. Then there is silence about the excess heat for > some time. Meanwhile, people unsuccessfully attempt to replicate, and > can't. Mills talks about batteries, has some instrumental evidence for > hydrino's, but shows no batteries. In fact, while testing another similar > plasma device, everybody in numerous camps have their expensive instruments > go bizarro on them, and Scott Little now reads his meters two ways, right > side up and laying down. Obviously there is something about the > electrostatics that is poorly understood, even by our own notable experts in > calorimetry and power measurement. Could it possibly be that Mills > experienced the same kind of difficulty? > > Mills gets some medium amount of funding from some power companies, based on > his early test results, and hires a bunch of good people with the money to > do R&D. That is about the time he goes silent on the excess heat. Then he > has an ex-Reagan/Bush era DOE guy for a director. > > Gee, the rose colored glasses era. What a time. Wasn't that era marked by > the total elimination by the DOE of all funding for solar power, wind power, > electric cars and every other form of non-oil, non-polluting or non-nuclear > power? Wasn't it also the era that Secretary Watt wanted to open up the > entire West Coast for oil exploration/exploitation? Wasn't it also the era > that FEMA dug all those tunnels for the military and called it Emergency > Management? Wasn't that the era that we spent all that DOE money on > Starwars development, which put our country into a trillion dollars in debt, > and a bunch of other huge non-performing phoney fusion extravaganza > projects? Wasn't that the era that between 600,000 and 1,000,000 people > died in Ethiopia per year from starvation for a decade, and while every > other civilized country sent aid, our government said that is too bad? In > other words, what business has that guy on the board of directors of BLP? > > Now Mills is talking about heat again, and he says that he is working on a > way to generate electricity. Still not one device or product after six > years, just his theory, and some old test results. A lot of power company > money spent, some spinned up, very short on details, press reports, and TA > DA! An IPO in the works in an overheated market at a time when fuel cells > are going through the roof, and a lot of vested people are banging the drum > on the internet. Do I smell an insider bailout, or is this for real? Does > Mills actually have something or does he hope to use the money in a Yankee > Doodle, Edisonian effort to brute force engineer his way out of a pickle? > Will we see at least a dozen or so testable prototypes before the IPO, or > will we see a bunch more patent filings, and hear talk about the year 2005? > > Like I said, I'm not really up on all this, but I've seen this kind of > behavior before. > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 19:53:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18727; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:51:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:51:34 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: HV Circuit Safety Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:02:58 -0500 Message-ID: <20000224040258828.AAA63 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"D9syw3.0.Xa4.6hAju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts! I've been reading a lot about quite a few different HV circuits recently, enough to see that they can be built by just about anyone, and with very low cost components. What I haven't seen so far however, is a comprehensive, public domain treatment of the dangers of HV circuits, especially the proper wiring of capacitors for DC and AC circuits, and for the proper methods of discharging them. I'm aware of only one URL that treats the subject at all, and not only is it incomplete in my opinion, it is also copyrighted. I was wondering if any of you had any online references that would treat this subject. Ideally, the reference would be public domain, so that anyone posting a HV circuit to a webpage for example, could take the safety document, and post it right there on their website with the circuit without violating any copyrights. If I don't find anything that treats the subject to my satisfaction, then I would like to organize something to that end. Got any URL's? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 20:11:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25230; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:09:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:09:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200002240004.RAA07100 smtp.asu.edu> References: <18.11d222d.25e4a0f0 aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:31:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent Resent-Message-ID: <"HPqC62.0.8A6.6yAju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 09:33 PM 2/22/00 -0500, Tom Stolper wrote: >> >>In a message dated 02/21/2000 10:03:59 PM, Vince Cockeram wrote, re the >>discussion on SPF: >> >><< ...most are screaming and foaming at the mouth, >>extremely upset that the patent was issued. >> >> >>Mills' devices do work, and he's come a long way since 1991 toward making >>them marketable. Having an issued patent on something probably helps to >>market it, but I doubt that will have any effect on the scientific debate >>until the scientists involved can buy it themselves. Maybe the skeptics on >>SPF are afraid that in a year or two, they'll know someone somewhere whose >>company or lab has actually bought and used one of Mills' products. >> >>Tom Stolper >> > >Skeptics, yes. Afraid?? You have to be kidding! If the Mills stuff turns >out to be real, I am sure they would like to buy one of those 5kw >generators or 1000 mile batteries just as eagerly as you or I would. Not >only that, but it would open new and exciting branches of physics / >chemistry / materials science and God knows what else for research, >development, and commercialization. Something for everyone, including those >"establishment physicists". > >Let's hope it's true, but I'm not going to quit my day job to set up a >dealership in selling those batteries just yet. > >--Lynn ***{Material benefits are not the only factor that is relevant here. Yes, even the most pathological skeptic would, given the opportunity, jump at the chance to disconnect himself from the power grid and produce free and virtually unlimited power himself, in his own basement. However, such people will look like absolute asses if that possibility becomes a reality, because they have spent years ridiculing CF researchers and their ideas. Since a propensity to ridicule people with unorthodox ideas characterizes people who are totally fixated on how they are perceived by others, it is perfectly plausible to suppose, as Tom did, that pathological skeptics fear the possibility that CF will prove to be real. The fact that others will perceive them to be asses is far more important to them than the material benefits of the technology. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 20:26:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23794; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:23:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:23:35 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000224013333500.AAA279 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:21:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Yomiuri: CEPCO cancels Mie Pref. N-plant Resent-Message-ID: <"WFaZV.0.dp5.39Bju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Jed, > >More local nuclear irresponsibility. > >http://ens.lycos.com/ens/feb2000/2000L-02-11-07.html > >I just read of a British nuclear processing plant that was found to >completely lacking in their safe handling of materials, but can't lay my >hands on the URL right now. > >Below is an amazing announcement from George Wiseman's Browns Gas Group. >The US DOE is actually suppressing technologies that neutralize nuclear >waste. What is it with the DOE anyway? ***{Here's a hint, Knuke: under fascism, politically connected insiders use the regulatory framework to stifle their competition. Now, armed with that insight, ask yourself who is stifled by the absence of nuclear waste remediation technology, and who benefits. You can do it! :-) --MJ}*** > >> BROWN'S GAS NEWS (top) >> >> Atomic Energy Canada has successfully tested Brown's Gas to neutralize >> radioactive waste; using full scientific protocol. Further tests are >> being done soon. The USA DOE tested Brown's Gas and found the same >> result, but wouldn't validate their findings for public domain. >> >> Brown's Gas technology continues to be developed to industry >> standards. The electrolyzers are being modified to allow Brown's Gas >> to be a direct replacement gas for current industry equipment. People >> who are using our machines (bought from us or built themselves) are >> telling us the changes they'd like to see. This input will be >> reflected in the next generation of machines. >> >> We are cooperating with organizations that are testing the Brown's Gas >> characteristics and it's usefulness in their applications. There have >> been some surprising developments which I will detail as soon as I get >> permission. >> >> ===================================================== > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 20:34:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02689; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:32:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:32:11 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Yomiuri: CEPCO cancels Mie Pref. N-plant Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:43:32 -0500 Message-ID: <20000224044332906.AAA81 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"EU9LL2.0.sf.BHBju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{Here's a hint, Knuke: under fascism, politically connected insiders use >the regulatory framework to stifle their competition. Now, armed with that >insight, ask yourself who is stifled by the absence of nuclear waste >remediation technology, and who benefits. You can do it! :-) --MJ}*** I've only got my fingers and toes to count with Mitch, but after a while I actually did do the math on this one, and I didn't have to sleep through any Ayn Rand novels. Thanks anyway though for the encouragement, ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 20:53:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10391; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:51:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:51:57 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:51:20 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"sO77f.0.CY2.jZBju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/22/2000 9:37:30 AM, JedRothwell wrote: <> It was real, but at too low a level to commercialize, let alone make him wealthier than Bill Gates. <<(The low-level heat he claimed years ago would be immensely valuable in water and space-heating applications.)>> Tens of watts of excess heat were revolutionary from a scientific standpoint, but hardly something anyone would buy to heat his shower. Mills was able to increase the power output a lot over the very small amounts reported in his first article in 1991, and he and Thermacore were able to keep cells producing tens of watts of excess heat going indefinitely, Thermacore with a tub-like design using ten kilometers of coiled nickel wire, and Mills with a tall, pipe-like design using much less nickel wire cloth for the cathode; but when Mills tried to increase the power, he found that durability went down dramatically. That's why he gave up on electrolysis for heat production. Hot-water heaters have to last for years, not weeks. << >Still not one device or product after six >years, just his theory, and some old test results.>> That's confusing devices with marketable products. Mills has built and given the specs for lots of devices, of ever-increasing sophistication and effectiveness, but I have to concede the point about no marketable product yet. What's that about <>? Didn't Gene ever tell you about his visit to Robert Bush to check out Bush's Mills-type cell? <> Once again, the heart of the matter. Upon examination, it seems to me that it's the comparison between Mills and the smoke and mirrors of others in <> that dissipates like smoke in a breeze. I've never seen anyone like Mills before, nor any company like BLP. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 20:53:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10419; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:52:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:52:05 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:51:16 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"MKUiO1.0.DY2.jZBju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/22/2000 7:08:02 AM, Michael Huffman wrote: <> I did the B.A. in math, but that was a long time ago, and I've forgotten almost all of it, so I can't take part in the mathematical debate. The exposition of Mills' argument makes more sense to me than his critics do, insofar as I can follow either side of the mathematical debate. And by the way, Mills' theory is more than a GUT: it's a TOE, because it includes gravity, even though Mills himself uses the term Grand Unified Theory in his book. Knuke referred to <> What prominence? A front-page story in VILLAGE VOICE is good publicity, and the best publicity Mills has had to date, but it doesn't match the kind of favorable publicity that lots of other scientists get in SCIENCE, NATURE, NEW YORK TIMES, or other world publications. <> What has impressed me is the successful replication by people who consider Mills a rival, and the poor quality of the unsuccessful replication attempts. <> Mills mentioned, rather recently, a compound that he hoped might serve as the basis of a superbattery. Judging by the material on the BLP website, he's shown the stuff to various people, and they're interested. I think it's a little early to be asking for an actual battery; but I have to concede that the demand was inevitable as soon as he mentioned the mere possibility. <> Huh? Mills raised $10 million in 1997, which was the year that the BLP website went up, and there's been a lot of stuff about excess heat on the website since then. <> Mills has been at this for more than ten years now. His staying power impresses me. He's done the very opposite of fading away. He has given the specs for lots of devices, and presented lots of results since his first article reporting excess heat in 1991, and the results have gotten steadily better since 1991. But I have to concede the point about no marketable product yet. <> Yes, and even more by over 100 private investors, according to Mills. It's been years since I talked to any of them, but you'll note that Mills didn't have to recruit new investors last year to raise still more money. <> I guess that's the heart of the matter. I've never seen anyone like Mills before, nor any theory like his, nor any company like BLP. When you say that you've <> what cases were you referring to? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 21:40:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26057; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:36:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:36:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yomiuri: CEPCO cancels Mie Pref. N-plant Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:36:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20000223125251.007a58e0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000223125251.007a58e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA26034 Resent-Message-ID: <"o5KGN3.0.3N6.jDCju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:52:51 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >There is a brief article at: > >http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/index-e.htm > >- Jed >From the article in question: "The two companies each intend to build two 1.1-million-kilowatt-hour-class reactors." Apparently they have a built in use-by date as well ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 01:27:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA16104; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:26:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:26:37 -0800 Message-ID: <001301bf7eb1$774e6200$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 02:25:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"TajLp1.0.Xx3.CbFju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The calculated radius of a 0.2 ev Positrino or Negatrino (R = kq^2/Energy ~ = 7.2E-9 meters)when out of the ground-state range of a nucleus, indicates that enormous energy can be dissipated by collisions with the atoms/molecules in it's vicinity in a very short path length. As an example, the radius of the electron away from a nucleus is is ~ 2.8E-15 meters, but, when "absorbed" into a nucleus (as in K Capture) it's radius is decreased to "quark" dimensions on the order of 4.5E-18 meters. OTOH, when it comes off as a Beta particle, it's radius increases back to the 2.81E-15 value, and it's range in a material is well established at various energies. So, for a Negatrino coming off of a 24 Mev Reaction: D* (a Negatrino in a fractional orbit in a Deuteron) D* + D ----> He4 + Negatrino + 24.0 Mev The large Negatrino can collide with several hundred atoms/molecules simultaneously, thus dividing it's relativistic kinetic energy amongst the "target" atoms/molecules so that each can attain tens of kev energy and release it as heat sans neutron or gamma radiation. Eventually the Negatrino will annihilate with a Positrino releasing ~ 0.4 ev. If this was an fractional orbit electron, a 24.0 Mev "Beta" would be easilly detected. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 03:59:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA04276; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 03:58:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 03:58:59 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:10:17 -0500 Message-ID: <20000224121017828.AAA298 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"hJ0gt2.0.k21.3qHju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom writes: >I did the B.A. in math, but that was a long time ago, and I've forgotten >almost all of it, so I can't take part in the mathematical debate. The >exposition of Mills' argument makes more sense to me than his critics do, >insofar as I can follow either side of the mathematical debate. And by the >way, Mills' theory is more than a GUT: it's a TOE, because it includes >gravity, even though Mills himself uses the term Grand Unified Theory in his >book. Your unwillingness to exercise your math skills in favor of believing Mills' prose is not unlike some sort of religious fervor, Tom. Perhaps it is just the rhythm of his writing that has captured you, perhaps something more. I'm assuming that your use of TOE is for a Theory of Everything? That would be like a cosmology of sorts, I'm supposing. Don't get me wrong Tom, but as I said, I've seen this before. I myself have gotten caught up in some of the prose that I've read from people in the science world. It can be mesmerizing at times. I love reading Ross Tessian for example, he's truly inspired, as I'm sure Mills is, and he loves his subject. To him it is a beautiful vision that has trancendent implications, and it may even pan out to have some basis in reality, but if the theory is so great, then why are Nature and Reality being so obstinate by not agreeing with it? If it is The Key, why is door still shut? It's especially sad when it involves good people, but if after eleven years (I thought it was only six), and in excess of 10 million private dollars, grants from DOD (boy, you can't do any science without the Department of Death getting their noses into it, these days), DOE, and EPRI, along with the help of a large number of excellent scientists and engineers, he doesn't have at least some kind of product, then his TOE doesn't include Nature and Reality. Perhaps he is right, perhaps he is only partially right, perhaps he is guessing and maybe he's just totally deluded, but one thing is for sure, there still is no product. The gushing literature that I downloaded 4 years ago said that he had a heater that was between 130 - 11000% efficient, and that he had devices running for over a year! I've still got it, in fact it is right in front of me. Today, still no product, not even an interim product. But there is an IPO, in a market that feeds off of this kind of situation. Either what I downloaded 4 years ago was not true, or there should have been a product back then. >What prominence? A front-page story in VILLAGE VOICE is good publicity, and >the best publicity Mills has had to date, but it doesn't match the kind of >favorable publicity that lots of other scientists get in SCIENCE, NATURE, NEW >YORK TIMES, or other world publications. The VV is an old hippy rag turned yuppie rag that got tossed a gem that the bigger financial rags didn't want. It's certainly not a science journal by any stretch, but it is an excellent place to pre-hype an IPO amongst a wealthy readership that will toss a few bucks at anything that bills itself as the next Microsoft. Mills has been published favorably in other publications, quite a few of them actually, you've been feeding us this stuff as it comes out, plus he has his huge website, and his book. You don't get money like that if you are not getting favorable reports from some real science reporting sources. Do you think DoD granted Mills money on the basis of a Village Voice article? He's enough prominence that the APS is writing about him. In this business, anyone that can garner $10 million bucks in private is considered a credible player. The questions are what kind of player is he, and what's the game? >What has impressed me is the successful replication by people who consider >Mills a rival, and the poor quality of the unsuccessful replication attempts. That is a good point. A lot of good labs reported LARGE amounts of excess heat from his cell. Many years ago. He was everybodies' Golden Boy. Just look at his site and see who endorsed his work. So what is the problem? This was _before_ the 10 million in private money rolled in. What does it take armed with an entire cosmology, access to every government lab that he wants, access to the best equipment available to anybody, the best science and engineering advisory bodies in the world, and 10 million bucks? An IPO? Even Edison would have choked on this one. >Mills mentioned, rather recently, a compound that he hoped might serve as the >basis of a superbattery. Judging by the material on the BLP website, he's >shown the stuff to various people, and they're interested. I think it's a >little early to be asking for an actual battery; but I have to concede that >the demand was inevitable as soon as he mentioned the mere possibility. The song, the dance, the dodge. No battery, just a maybe, and I think he mentioned that about a year ago. Even a just a decent battery with a promise of improvement based on some sound, rational findings would have been OK, and doable by any other outfit in that amount of time. Instead, we get another patent filing of questionable claims, and an IPO. After re-reading the stuff that I have in front of me, his first patent filing was 30 days after the P&F announcement. He's definitely not a snoozer in the opportunity department. That's kind of a short period of time to be coming up with a cosmology, too. I don't think the announcement of the battery was regrettable, I think it was, like the timing of all his press releases, masterful. It hasn't stopped with the battery though, he also now claims that he thinks he can generate electricity better than the fuel cells, and for about $1,500. No prototypes available, and no explanations. I suppose after the IPO, there will be another broad patent filing, and some talk about the great future in store for mankind in the next 10 years. >Huh? Mills raised $10 million in 1997, which was the year that the BLP >website went up, and there's been a lot of stuff about excess heat on the >website since then. Like I said, there was a great deal of excellent test results from numerous, high quality labs four years ago on his site. Some of them were saying things like 850% efficient. What is the problem? >Mills has been at this for more than ten years now. His staying power >impresses me. He's done the very opposite of fading away. He has given the >specs for lots of devices, and presented lots of results since his first >article reporting excess heat in 1991, and the results have gotten steadily >better since 1991. But I have to concede the point about no marketable >product yet. I'm not too impressed by his staying power. With that kind of funding, why do anything else? ><> > >Yes, and even more by over 100 private investors, according to Mills. It's >been years since I talked to any of them, but you'll note that Mills didn't >have to recruit new investors last year to raise still more money. I would say that something in his cosmology is working. He knows how to raise funds. If he has so many people willing to throw money at him, why does he need to go publicly traded? Wouldn't it be financially more beneficial to himself and all his "ra-ra" initial investors if he stayed privately held and in complete control over the destiny of his company? Does he need 100's of millions? Billions? Will there ever be a product? Are his investors wanting to get their money back? Do they have pennies on the dollar type options? >I guess that's the heart of the matter. I've never seen anyone like Mills >before, nor any theory like his, nor any company like BLP. When you say that >you've <> what cases were you referring >to? > >Tom Stolper Well, in the FreeNRG racket, there have been a few notables with very good credentials like Bockris, Storms, Schwinger, Takahashi, and Puthoff, just to name a few. They've all been widely published, written volumes themselves, been in charge of financially large scale projects, and some of them are Nobel winners. These are some of the most accomplished people of our age, much more so than Mills. They have all had some success in this field that indicated to them that there was a potential for what they were doing, but the scientific community, in general, have given them a pretty bad time for not coming up with an overnight solution to the energy problem. Do I think that they should continue to be funded? Absolutely! Funding in the 10's of millions though, spread out amongst a number of scientists of that caliber should produce results in a given time. Comparing these amounts to the amounts that our government gives away (10's of billions), arming the third world oil producing countries and calling it aid is something that we could re-evaluate. With some of that tax payer money, more scientists could be employed towards a truly good cause, and many more approaches could be investigated with the hope of seeing faster results. Mills has gotten his share of that, and private funds, and now he has an IPO. Do I think that the above researchers should market whatever they have at the present? If their technologies are producing a consistent 125% efficiency, then there are commercial applications for them. Yes, if they wish to profit from their work and it is real, they should market their technologies and engineer them into real world application products. So much the better if they have a sound reason for thinking that they can improve the technologies that they have. Marketing their technologies at least in a small way, would help pay for the further development of their work, reduce the amount of public assistance necessary and offer the researchers a chance to see some real life data emerge from real life situations - not entirely from instrument readings, and pure speculation. This would get the devices into the hands of real engineers who are the real brains of any operation, anyway. You would get honest feedback from people who are not looking to be billionaires in three years, and this is absolutely essential for any real improvement to any technology. What does an IPO without a product do? It just puts a lot more money on the line, and allows the insiders to get rich and get out, without even so much as Dear John. Do I think they should offer an IPO first on the basis of some drawings and dreams? Well no, but that is based on my own business ethic which is not the current ethic of the marketplace. So far, none of these other researchers that I have mentioned have done that anyway, that I know of. That really is not any of my business either, so it is just my opinion. How they conduct their affairs is their business, really. If I think what they are doing stinks however, I'll say so. I don't see much in the business world that I like right now. Wiseman seems to be doing things in a way that I like, but he is in the business for entirely different reasons than most people. He's a real guy with a real product and he is not trying to bamboozle anybody. He is actually just wanting to help people, and make a decent living, basta. What could be simpler? His operation has accomplished more with 10's of thousands than Mills has with millions, and that includes the real advancement of science. I think that what Wiseman has done has been exemplary. Outside of this racket, I've seen this particular pattern to a T played out many times in other industries. I played the market myself for a few years, and saw all the schemes and machinations for bilking people out of huge sums. Clean and jerk operations have been going on in full visibility ever since I started watching it. It's the most grotesque form of legalized theft I've ever encountered. I could list hundreds of scams that I've seen successfully played out, and it is difficult for me to imagine anyone who has been even semi-conscious for the last 20 years, and involved in market investing at any level that wouldn't be able to spot this particular sequence of market moves. The market rewards the clever. If you really rip off a large group of people, you get interviewed in Forbes and Money magazines as a hero. Your techniques are revered, analyzed, and studied as course material in business schools. Like I said, it is sad when good people have to get involved with it. For most people that are jaded enough to successfully continue to play this market today, the product, the promise of a product, the theory, and all of the rest mean nothing to them. It's all just pure psychology and timing. A company could promise the return of Elvis, and I know people that would make millions on it overnight in this market. The market doesn't care. If something makes money move, that is all that matters. The movement itself. Weird, huh? It's kind of like running electricity through a dead frog's leg. I thought everybody knew that, though. Maybe not. I honestly wish Mills and company all the success in the world. I hope his company can find, and make available for a decent price a real source of free energy. I hope it happens soon. That is the heart of the matter. As for the market parasites and the money manipulators, I wish they would have a change of heart or grow one. If they don't, finding another source of energy won't really matter, and all of our efforts will be for nothing. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 04:39:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA11105; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:39:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:39:16 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38B534C1.1F661879 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:40:17 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation References: <001301bf7eb1$774e6200$6f441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"JHC2A.0.Nj2.qPIju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick wrote: The calculated radius of a 0.2 ev Positrino or Negatrino (R = kq^2/Energy ~ = 7.2E-9 meters) when out of the ground-state range of a nucleus, indicates that enormous energy can be dissipated by collisions with the atoms/molecules in it's vicinity in a very short path length ... The large Negatrino can collide with several hundred atoms/molecules simultaneously, thus dividing it's relativistic kinetic energy amongst the "target" atoms/molecules so that each can attain tens of kev energy and release it as heat sans neutron or gamma radiation ... If this was an fractional orbit electron, a 24.0 Mev "Beta" would be easilly detected. Hi Frederick, Is there a connection here with Mill's theory? If there is, and you feel like doing it, I would appreciate a mathematical development. Would it be reasonable to try to detect beta rays from a Mill's - type experiment? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 07:10:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16135; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:07:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:07:53 -0800 Message-ID: <002501bf7ee1$24f76e40$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <001301bf7eb1$774e6200$6f441d26 fjsparber> <38B534C1.1F661879@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:05:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"aLYnm.0.0y3.8bKju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Taylor J. Smith To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 5:40 AM Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Jack Smith wrote: > > Is there a connection here with Mill's theory? No,but if the neutral hydrino gave up the electron as a 24 Mev Beta the F&P Cell and other CF/OU devices would fry you. > If there is, and you feel like doing it, I would appreciate > a mathematical development. Easy. A Negatrino taken up by a Proton or Deuteron would be a Neutral Particle with a Radius, R = kq^2/(Energy attained by the Negatrino). (energy = kq/2R) >Would it be reasonable to > try to detect beta rays from a Mill's - type experiment? Very Easy. Regards, Frederick > > Jack Smith > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 08:46:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15204; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:44:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:44:42 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:56:06 -0500 Message-ID: <20000224165606375.AAA278 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"4Fhbv.0.Uj3.v_Lju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >>Would it be reasonable to >> try to detect beta rays from a Mill's - type experiment? > >Very Easy. Would this be a particle or a ray? Could you detect it with a cloud chamber? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 09:00:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19177; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:58:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:58:05 -0800 Message-ID: <003501bf7ef0$8adf3d00$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000224165606375.AAA278 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:56:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"daJxk2.0.Zh4.TCMju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 8:56 AM Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Knuke writes: > Fred writes: Jack Smith writes: > >>Would it be reasonable to > >> try to detect beta rays from a Mill's - type experiment? > > > >Very Easy. > > Would this be a particle or a ray? Could you detect it with a cloud chamber? Beta particles ar high speed electrons or positrons. Easy to detect with a Geiger counter. FJS > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 09:18:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25090; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:16:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:16:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000224121635.007a2990 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:16:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent In-Reply-To: <200002240004.RAA07100 smtp.asu.edu> References: <18.11d222d.25e4a0f0 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0YmKF3.0.u76.7UMju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: >Skeptics, yes. Afraid?? You have to be kidding! If the Mills stuff turns >out to be real, I am sure they would like to buy one of those 5kw >generators or 1000 mile batteries just as eagerly as you or I would. Not >only that, but it would open new and exciting branches of physics / >chemistry / materials science and God knows what else for research, >development, and commercialization. Something for everyone, including those >"establishment physicists". I do not know what the skeptics honestly feel. They do not act afraid. Probably, we will not know their reaction unless CF devices are sold in the stores. Based on historical examples, I predict they will go on pooh-poohing the discovery, fighting it, and ignoring its implications long after the rest of the world had grown excited. From 1908 to 1914, when the Wrights were the most famous inventors on earth and airplane races were the hottest attraction in Europe, the skeptics who had opposed aviation research, attacked the Wrights and fought to prevent demonstrations did not retract or let up their opposition. They said that airplanes would never become a practical form of transportation; airplanes would never carry passengers; they would never travel faster than railroad trains (110 mph); they would never have any military applications; and no military funds should be spent on them. French military officers who wanted to learn how to fly had to disguise their names and fly off duty, in secret, or face dismissal. If these "skeptics" had remained in charge of policy, the allies would have lost the First World War. I can describe a long litany of similar "skeptical" responses to other new technologies, such as steam powered ships, railroads, sterilization, antiseptics, pasteurization, breech loading artillery, chronometers, telephones, microcomputers, the Internet, etc. Official government opposition to chronometers in England lasted from 1760 until 1911. Millions of pounds were wasted on the mainstream, big-science program to replace chronometers with lunar navigation. Measured in manpower and expense this was by far the largest astronomical research project in history, yet it served no purpose, benefitted no one, and contributed nothing to astronomy or other sciences. It was pure make-work for the professionals, just like today's hot fusion program. U.S. industry opposition to pasteurization lasted from 1860 to 1917. I think history shows that people who are stupid enough to deny overwhelming evidence for years do not suddenly wise up later on. That is why large corporations drive themselves out of business, and powerful nations lose wars. Anyway, Kurtz is wrong about some established facts. The "new and exciting branches of physics" were opened nine years ago, when SRI, Los Alamos and others published peer-reviewed, airtight, high-sigma replications of the Pons-Fleischmann experiments. All doubts about the existence of the phenomena were eliminated by 1991. There has never been a serious, published, "skeptical" rebuttal of the findings, unless you count Morrison's Physics Letters A paper. As shown in Fleischmann's response, this paper was crammed with idiotic, elementary mistakes. Believe it or not, this was the best the "skeptics" camp ever came up with, and it was not worth snot. (Things like the Taubes book do not fall in the category of "rebuttal," being instead ad hominem nonsense, without any scientific content or references to the literature.) Not one of the skeptics has expressed any interest in following up the opportunities the 1991 replications confirmed. I predict they will not express interest unless the APS and other mainstream organizations anoint the discoveries with tons of grant money. My guess is that these "skeptics" are only interested in grants and political power, not "new and exciting" science. Since Kurtz himself has expressed little interest in or knowledge of the CF literature, perhaps he can explain to us the mindset of a professional scientist who ignores these developments. I personally have little interest in new and exciting physics, but I can see that the new physics are present and have been for nine years. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 09:52:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01495; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:51:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:51:42 -0800 Message-ID: <004b01bf7ef8$07001ba0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Plasma Power Converters Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:49:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"VqmMy2.0.EN.j-Mju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Thermionic Diodes that use Potassium for space charge neutralization might also work as a self sustaining power converter if Hydrogen is added. The Russians came up with a neat way to convert the thermionic converter DC to AC this way. I don't know if this is what Mills is aiming for in his "$1500.00" home converter unit. OTOH, a titanium tank containing potassium and hydrogen at ~ 1,000 K could act as a cold plasma oscillator: f = [Ne/(1.24E10)]^1/2 Megahertz, where Ne is the number of electrons per cubic meter. As I see it Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) pair production from ~ 0.4 ev photons, followed by uptake of the Negatron by a Proton (H+) to form the Quasineutron with EUV release to keep the heat going, along with, K + H2 <----> KH + H+ + e- should do the trick. What more do you need? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 09:57:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02635; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:55:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:55:41 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000224121017828.AAA298 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:34:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Resent-Message-ID: <"B0MTw2.0.2f.S2Nju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] Knuke wrote: > >Marketing their technologies at least in a small way, would help pay for the >further development of their work, reduce the amount of public assistance >necessary and offer the researchers a chance to see some real life data >emerge from real life situations - not entirely from instrument readings, >and pure speculation. This would get the devices into the hands of real >engineers who are the real brains of any operation, anyway. You would get >honest feedback from people who are not looking to be billionaires in three >years, and this is absolutely essential for any real improvement to any >technology. What does an IPO without a product do? It just puts a lot more >money on the line, and allows the insiders to get rich and get out, without >even so much as Dear John. > >Do I think they should offer an IPO first on the basis of some drawings and >dreams? Well no, but that is based on my own business ethic which is not >the current ethic of the marketplace. So far, none of these other >researchers that I have mentioned have done that anyway, that I know of. >That really is not any of my business either, so it is just my opinion. How >they conduct their affairs is their business, really. If I think what they >are doing stinks however, I'll say so. I don't see much in the business >world that I like right now. Wiseman seems to be doing things in a way that >I like, but he is in the business for entirely different reasons than most >people. He's a real guy with a real product and he is not trying to >bamboozle anybody. He is actually just wanting to help people, and make a >decent living, basta. What could be simpler? His operation has >accomplished more with 10's of thousands than Mills has with millions, and >that includes the real advancement of science. I think that what Wiseman >has done has been exemplary. > >Outside of this racket, I've seen this particular pattern to a T played out >many times in other industries. I played the market myself for a few years, >and saw all the schemes and machinations for bilking people out of huge >sums. Clean and jerk operations have been going on in full visibility ever >since I started watching it. It's the most grotesque form of legalized >theft I've ever encountered. ***{Yup. The financial markets are the most protected, regulated, and cartelized industry in America. The insiders there, more than in any other area, have succeeded in making illegal the very types of activities that, in the 19th century, prevented them from scamming members of the general public. What types of activities do I have in mind? Simple: blatant self-interested manipulations of prices of the sort routinely done in 19th century markets, by individuals such as Jay Gould, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Hetty Green, etc., had the effect of scaring the public away. As a consequence, those who wanted to steal billions by scamming ordinary people were frustrated, and called for regulation "in the public interest." They had no difficulty convincing superficial, economically ignorant journalists and assorted do-gooders to crusade for the violations of property rights which "the public interest" required, and the result is that today a mass of "protective" regulations has convinced the general public that Wall Street is a "money machine" where any idiot can get rich. Result: the savings of three generations of Americans have been pissed away in the Wall Street casino. The brokers, speculators, floor traders, and the corporate insiders are all rich, while the general public is bankrupt and too dumb to know it. Their trillions in paper profits are not real, because they have ignored basic principles of value investing and, in response to "momentum investing" hype, they paid too much. When the level of stock prices eventually returns to levels dictated by real values, rather than by hype, the result will be the worst financial disaster in the history of this country, and, indeed, of the world. --MJ}*** I could list hundreds of scams that I've seen >successfully played out, and it is difficult for me to imagine anyone who >has been even semi-conscious for the last 20 years, and involved in market >investing at any level that wouldn't be able to spot this particular >sequence of market moves. The market rewards the clever. If you really rip >off a large group of people, you get interviewed in Forbes and Money >magazines as a hero. Your techniques are revered, analyzed, and studied as >course material in business schools. ***{Absolutely correct. --MJ}*** > >Like I said, it is sad when good people have to get involved with it. For >most people that are jaded enough to successfully continue to play this >market today, the product, the promise of a product, the theory, and all of >the rest mean nothing to them. It's all just pure psychology and timing. A >company could promise the return of Elvis, and I know people that would make >millions on it overnight in this market. The market doesn't care. If >something makes money move, that is all that matters. The movement itself. >Weird, huh? It's kind of like running electricity through a dead frog's >leg. I thought everybody knew that, though. Maybe not. > >I honestly wish Mills and company all the success in the world. I hope his >company can find, and make available for a decent price a real source of >free energy. I hope it happens soon. That is the heart of the matter. As >for the market parasites and the money manipulators, I wish they would have >a change of heart or grow one. If they don't, finding another source of >energy won't really matter, and all of our efforts will be for nothing. ***{The problem is the government, Knuke. This is a disaster made in Washington. Without the vast panoply of property rights violations enacted to "protect" the public from the likes of Jay Gould, the financial community would never have been able to bankrupt the entire country. The reason is simple: blatant self-interested price manipulations by wealthy men have the effect of scaring the public away from the financial markets, and that's as it should be: value investing is as difficult as theoretical physics, and average people have *zero* hope of being good at it. The financial markets, properly, are the province of the rich and of those few who, though not rich, have the brilliance of intellect and the iron discipline which successful investing requires. The rest should hold their savings in the form of gold at a private storage facility (not a bank), and invest only in areas that enhance their own life, such as in their business, their home, a vacation retreat, a boat, etc. Trying to do more, for most people, is an invitation to disaster. --MJ}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 10:34:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06415; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:31:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:31:37 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:42:34 -0500 Message-ID: <20000224184234500.AAA277 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"8vRvA1.0.8a1.7aNju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >Beta particles ar high speed electrons or positrons. Easy to detect with a Geiger counter. > >FJS In light of the recent Naudin measurements, how would you recommend shielding a Geiger counter from EM to distinguish between that and an electron/positron? Do you think that it is possible for static electrical charged particles or microplasmas to penetrate the shielding? Are we looking at three or four different critters here? I'm still trying to sort that one out. I'd still like to know how a cloud chamber would react near a plasma panel too, just for the sake of knowing. The Roth paper indicates that ionic flows over the panel can be seen to form vortices in a smoke wire test. They don't mention a cloud chamber test at all. Nor do they measure any unusual measurement effects, but the panels do have differences between the ones reported on by Roth and Naudin's. Many years ago, I bought a static eliminator gun for my stereo to get the static build-up off my albums before playing them. I shot the gun once at the TV screen while it was turned off, and the phosphors lit up in a lightning pattern. It looked cool, but I went back to playing music and never thought about it again until now. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:23:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17854; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:21:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:21:16 -0800 Message-ID: <38B592D4.6769D3D3 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:21:40 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: The Village Voice: Letters:] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nuSQF1.0.qM4.xAPju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 24, 2000 Vortex, The previous early posting about Mills receiving his patent was provided by Dr. Peter Gluck. And now he has sent a response by Mills to the Village Voice about his work and progress. I in turn am forwarding it here after trimming extraneous code. What Mills says in the letter is also found in his ACS presentation last October. Dr. Gluck has retired from his Institute and since then involved himself full time as an Internet specialist, giving him constant high speed access to all of its content. An enviable position. And he remains fully committed and open minded to the cold fusion phenomenon, in whatever form it ay take. -AK- ps: Yes Tom, I will be sending the tapes. :) Peter Gluck fowarded: <> Village Voice LETTERS The Infinite Particular In response to Erik Baard's cover article, "Quantum Leap" [December 28, 1999], which featured my technology, and the numerous letters that were printed in your January 11 issue: 140" Quantum theory has not yielded technologies. Lasers and telecommunications are not based on 10-dimensional universe theories with virtual particles, compactified dimensions, effective nuclear charge, intractable infinities, spooky actions at a distance, the possibility of objects being two places at once, etc., that cannot be directly observed experimentally and are inconsistent with reality. These devices are based on experimental phenomena, quantum behavior, and physical laws. Furthermore, there is no physical law that the electron can't have a lower energy level. QM is in an impossible position. Its founding premise is that the atomic world is based on probability waves that do not obey physical laws. Until measured, probability waves ascribe an infinite number of positions and energies to an electron simultaneously, and they have an infinite number of solutions. So, at the start of QM theory, the data summarized in an 1886 empirical formula giving the then-known energy levels of hydrogen were used to rig the QM hydrogen equation to agree with this formula. Our experimental work and that of numerous independent laboratories directly disproves QM theory. The physical laws that predict the large-scale world with precise accuracy apply on all scales, including the atomic scale. They further predict that quantized, lower energy states of hydrogen may be formed by a previously unattempted catalytic reaction. Because our experimental results overturn the postulates that are the foundation of QM, our data is assaulted and misrepresented by intolerant quantum mechanical aficionados. I have been vilified and labeled as everything from a fraud to a "cold fusionist." Independent scientists are often intimidated into subjugation. More than 25 laboratories have verified that we are producing power (100 times the energy of burning hydrogen), plasma (a glowing, ionized gas with no additional power into the cell), and novel compositions of matter with extraordinary properties (see <>). My theory predicts precisely the physical world from the masses of fundamental particles to the acceleration of the expansion of the cosmos and a plethora of previously inexplicable astrophysical data. The spooky actions, weirdness, and voodoo of quantum mechanics theory will go the way of the dark ages. It will be replaced by a new paradigm with implications for a knowledge and technological renaissance. Editor's Note: On February 15, Dr. Mills received a U.S. patent covering the energy technology discussed in Erik Baard's article. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:30:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19211; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:26:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:26:48 -0800 Message-ID: <006601bf7f0d$b0a578c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000224184234500.AAA277 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:25:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"_U2x2.0.5i4.7GPju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation > Fred writes: > >Beta particles ar high speed electrons or positrons. Easy to detect with a > Geiger counter. > > > >FJS > > In light of the recent Naudin measurements, how would you recommend > shielding a Geiger counter from EM to distinguish between that and an > electron/positron? Most Geiger counters have a rotable metal cover that a high energy Beta (electron) can penetrate. OTOH, I've ran "Open" GM tubes right next to continuous discharges without any EM triggering. FJS > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:30:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19647; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:27:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:27:45 -0800 Message-ID: <38B594B8.BDFDBBD3 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:29:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier References: <200002232100.WAA10257 front2.grolier.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g5kly3.0.no4._GPju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jean-Pierre Listed are the papers by Vigier on this subject I know about. New Hydrogen (Deuterium) Bohr Orbits in Quantum Chemistry and "Cold Fusion" Processes, Proc. Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion, (EPRI TR-104188-V4), Lahaina, Maui, Dec. 6-9, 1993, p.7. Electric Power Research Institute, Palo Alto (1994) . New Hydrogen Energies in Specially Structured Dense Media: Capillary Chemistry and Capillary Fusion, Proc. Third International Conference on Cold Fusion, October 21-25, 1992, Nagoya Japan, "Frontiers of Cold Fusion", (H. Ikegami, ed), published by Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan, p. 325. Vigier believes, as do many other people, that the electron and proton can get close enough together in a solid to act, for a very short time, like a virtual neutron. The mechanism of this collapse in their minds is different from the mechanism proposed by Mills and each person proposing this process seems to have a different explanation. I hope this will help. Ed Storms Jean Pierre Lentin wrote: > Hi all ! > > I remember, from early issues of Infinite Energy, that French quantum > physicist Jean-Pierre Vigier (long-time notorious non-conformist and > nevertheless editor of Physics Letter A) had a theory about fractional > quantum states and "shrunken hydrogen atom", which was supposed to explain > some cold fusion effects and seemed to parallel Randell Mills "hydrino". > > I hope to interview Vigier soon, for a science magazine, and will surely ask > him about Mills and CF. I'd like to my homework first, but a multi-search on > the net with Copernic led to surprisingly small results, mostly related to > non-locality, wave/particle esoterica and quantum gravitation. I guess a > trip to the library is the next step. I wonder if anyone can point me to > Vigier's papers about teenie weeny hydrogen atom. Thanks for any tip ! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jean-Pierre Lentin > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:50:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00937; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:47:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:47:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:51:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: BeginningHV Circuit Safety (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_pz-L.0.YE.AZPju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: High Voltage Safety Everyone should add to this, I will as well. This is a start. 1] Find skilled HV person 2] DO NOT fool with HV unless you are skilled 3] ALWAYS USE A SPOTTER 3a] A "Spotter" is someone who is with you when you do this work who is alert, not drinking beer and so on, who will cut power and safe you if things go wrong. 4] It is a good idea to have some simple safety tools when you do this work. 4a] Isolated poles to knock someone off ground wire connected to insulating pole effective main switch for the HV supply CLEAR WRITTEN WARNING AND INSTRUCTIONS OF HOW TO TURN OF AND TURN OFF IN SAFETY. 5] INDICATION LAMP [S] 6] WARNING: CAPACITORS CAN EASILY STORE LETHAL VOLTAGES AND CURRENTS. ALL CAPACITORS SHOULD BE OPERATED WITH SAFETY IN MIND SUCH AS BLEED RESISTORS. 7] The main danger [s] of HV can be simply summarized, in part, by letting everyone who is potentially exposed [ha!] that damage and death, in general, are goverened by the path of the current the duration and the magnitude. 8] All wires are hot and a hot wire looks just like a cold wire and often there is NO SECOND CHANCE. Anyone else? John ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:02:58 -0500 From: Michael T Huffman Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: HV Circuit Safety Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:51:34 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Gnorts! I've been reading a lot about quite a few different HV circuits recently, enough to see that they can be built by just about anyone, and with very low cost components. What I haven't seen so far however, is a comprehensive, public domain treatment of the dangers of HV circuits, especially the proper wiring of capacitors for DC and AC circuits, and for the proper methods of discharging them. I'm aware of only one URL that treats the subject at all, and not only is it incomplete in my opinion, it is also copyrighted. I was wondering if any of you had any online references that would treat this subject. Ideally, the reference would be public domain, so that anyone posting a HV circuit to a webpage for example, could take the safety document, and post it right there on their website with the circuit without violating any copyrights. If I don't find anything that treats the subject to my satisfaction, then I would like to organize something to that end. Got any URL's? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 13:08:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30735; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:06:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:06:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000224160609.007a7a70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:06:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2YWdf.0.9W7.QrPju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: ><cell that, if real, would have made him the most important and wealthy >person on earth by now.>> > >It was real, but at too low a level to commercialize, let alone make him >wealthier than Bill Gates. The December 1992 Thermacore data was plenty high enough to commercialize. If they had made a hundred gadgets like that and placed them in major corporate labs, by now we would have hundreds of millions of those heaters in every corner of the world. The gadget may not have been "practical" to sell in K-Mart to Mr. John Q. Public, but it was as practical, as robust and attractive to corporate customers as the AT&T transistor of 1952 or the paper-tape BASIC interpreter offered by Bill Gates in 1975. You have to remember how impractical first-generation revolutionary machines are. They sell in spite of their limitations. Look at the early phonographs, incandescent lights, inflatable tires, etc, etc. Can you imagine selling an automobile tire which goes 1,000 miles for $500?!? It sounds crazy, and it would be crazy today, but tires sold like hot cakes at that price in 1905 (inflation adjusted). If the first Mills gadgets cost $1000 per watt it would not matter, because niche markets would open up, the price would fall, the product would rapidly improve, and with its inherent advantages it would soon push aside other energy sources. Can you imagine selling a hand held navigation aid that costs more than a small ship? English clockmakers did it, and built England's top high tech industry by 1800. How about a "supercomputer" with 97 KB of main memory for $6 million dollars? Lawrence Livermore was happy to pay that much for the LARC in 1960. It is all a matter of timing. A gadget worth a fortune today may be worth nothing a few years from now. That is why you must sell when the market calls, and never wait. A 1000 mile tire would have made you America's top industrialist in 1905, but you could not have sold a single one by 1910. A 97 KB LARC supercomputer would have been worth nothing by 1970. The latest, hottest, fastest personal computer will fall in value 1% per week, and it will be worth nothing in three years. >Tens of watts of excess heat were revolutionary from a scientific standpoint, >but hardly something anyone would buy to heat his shower. That makes no difference. Something very similar would work. Mills or Thermacore working in isolation and in secret will never make significant progress. That would be like expecting James Watt to come up with a steam locomotive. Mills was able to >increase the power output a lot over the very small amounts reported in his >first article in 1991, and he and Thermacore were able to keep cells >producing tens of watts of excess heat going indefinitely, Thermacore with a >tub-like design using ten kilometers of coiled nickel wire . . . The details don't matter. Whatever they introduce first will be within months, perhaps weeks. When transistors were invented they quickly went through different manufacturing techniques: grown junction, alloyed junction, surface barrier, diffused base. Manufacturers did not settle on a stable technique for about 15 years. The first automobiles, airplanes and person computers looked quaint within months of their introduction. , and Mills with a >tall, pipe-like design using much less nickel wire cloth for the cathode; but >when Mills tried to increase the power, he found that durability went down >dramatically. That is the kind of problem he should never expect to fix. It is absurd for him to worry about it. There must be a million big-company experts who deal with problems like that for a living, and who could do a better job than Mills. ><< >Still not one device or product after six > >years, just his theory, and some old test results.>> > >That's confusing devices with marketable products. Mills has built and given >the specs for lots of devices, of ever-increasing sophistication and >effectiveness, but I have to concede the point about no marketable product >yet. I say he had a marketable product seven years ago, if we can believe his data. Every industrial corporation on earth would have been camped out at his front door. >Once again, the heart of the matter. Upon examination, it seems to me that >it's the comparison between Mills and the smoke and mirrors of others in ><> that dissipates like smoke in a breeze. I've never >seen anyone like Mills before, nor any company like BLP. People who make extraordinary claims like Mills are a dime a dozen. He may be the only one who is right. (I cannot judge that issue.) The only other company in the U.S. like BLP is CETI. I predict both will go down the tubes unless they start marketing instead of burning up venture capital for no reason. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 13:15:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07943; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:12:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:12:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000224160602.007937c0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:06:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier In-Reply-To: <38B594B8.BDFDBBD3 ix.netcom.com> References: <200002232100.WAA10257 front2.grolier.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7j5wM.0.wx1.vwPju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:29 PM 2/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Dear Jean-Pierre > >Listed are the papers by Vigier on this subject I know about. > >New Hydrogen (Deuterium) Bohr Orbits in Quantum Chemistry and "Cold Fusion" >Processes, Proc. Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion, (EPRI >TR-104188-V4), Lahaina, Maui, Dec. 6-9, 1993, p.7. Electric Power Research >Institute, Palo Alto (1994) . > >New Hydrogen Energies in Specially Structured Dense Media: Capillary Chemistry >and Capillary Fusion, Proc. Third International Conference on Cold Fusion, >October 21-25, 1992, Nagoya Japan, "Frontiers of Cold Fusion", (H. Ikegami, >ed), published by Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan, p. 325. > >Vigier believes, as do many other people, that the electron and proton can get >close enough together in a solid to act, for a very short time, like a virtual >neutron. The mechanism of this collapse in their minds is different from the >mechanism proposed by Mills and each person proposing this process seems to >have a different explanation. I hope this will help. > >Ed Storms > also, and easier to get (from Dieter's biblio): Vigier JP; Phys, Lett A 221 (1996) 138. "On cathodically polarized Pd/D systems" Vigier points out that the proposal of Szpak et al in the same journal A210 (1996) 382 is significant for "cold fusion" and in fact in line with his (Vigier's) own previous theories, as well as others. Essentially, "tight" Bohr orbits are proposed, with attendant implications. 031996|091996 Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 13:33:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07284; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:31:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:31:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000224163124.007a3410 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:31:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UsJX02.0.gn1.0DQju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: The details don't matter. Whatever they introduce first will be within months, perhaps weeks. I meant to say "obsolete within months . . ." All revolutionary products change rapidly at first. They often leave behind the original design, making early patents useless. The scanning tunnelling microscope (1981) was the first instrument with atomic-level resolution. I believe it was soon replaced in many applications by the Atomic Force Microscopy, invented a few years later. (They are both "scanning probe microscopes" but I do not think a patent for one would cover the other. Anyway, the STM inventors got a Nobel instead of a patent.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 13:54:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12766; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:50:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:50:22 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Negatrino Energy Dissipation Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:49:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000224184234500.AAA277 mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: <20000224184234500.AAA277 mail.lcia.com@lizard> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA12684 Resent-Message-ID: <"1nOUN.0.F73.SUQju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:42:34 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: [snip] >electron/positron? Do you think that it is possible for static electrical >charged particles or microplasmas to penetrate the shielding? Are we It may not actually be necessary to penetrate the shielding in order to create problems. If charged particles accumulate on the outside of a plastic casing, and produce a charge build-up, then the resultant field might upset any FETs in the device. [snip] >Many years ago, I bought a static eliminator gun for my stereo to get the >static build-up off my albums before playing them. I shot the gun once at >the TV screen while it was turned off, and the phosphors lit up in a >lightning pattern. q.e.d. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 14:16:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21515; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:13:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:13:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:12:40 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The gold non-standard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rUky31.0.yF5.lpQju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: The >financial markets, properly, are the province of the rich and of those few >who, though not rich, have the brilliance of intellect and the iron >discipline which successful investing requires. The rest should hold their >savings in the form of gold at a private storage facility (not a bank), and >invest only in areas that enhance their own life . . . Ummm . . . Why gold, in particular? Why not gravel, salt, or silicon wafers? Or palladium, which happens to be worth a lot more than gold at present. Someday, perhaps next week, perhaps in 2010, someone will figure out a cheap method of extracting gold from sea water, or a way to transmute a cheaper metal into gold, and then the value of gold will plummet. If most people put all of their eggs in this gold basket of yours, they will be wiped out. This breakthrough is bound to happen sooner or later, because gold is useful stuff and we'd like to have a hundred million tons of it at $10 per ton. Why not? It's great for electronics! There is no inherent, permanent value in any material good or commodity. Any material thing can be made ten times cheaper, or a thousand times cheaper, if we find a reason to make it cheaper. Intangible things like intelligence, education and innovation are a safer investment than gold. The whole solar system will soon be within our grasp, except Jupiter, and the amount of gold, iron, deuterium, lithium and other elements in the planets and asteroids is beyond all imagination. Someday when self-replicating robots do the work of extracting and refining, anyone one who wants a billion tons of gold or any other raw material will have it for the asking. That may not happen this century, perhaps not the next, but it will come about eventually. The whole trajectory of history is moving in that direction. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 14:33:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26736; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:31:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:31:04 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Plasma Power Converters Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:30:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7tbbbsgsould93t1dnsdgs6pei10s4rc7b 4ax.com> References: <004b01bf7ef8$07001ba0$6f441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <004b01bf7ef8$07001ba0$6f441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA26697 Resent-Message-ID: <"EwSTc1.0.eX6.d4Rju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:49:32 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >OTOH, a titanium tank containing potassium and hydrogen at ~ 1,000 K could act >as a cold plasma oscillator: f = [Ne/(1.24E10)]^1/2 Megahertz, where Ne is the number >of electrons per cubic meter. Hi Fred, How do you get a frequency out of the the sqrt. of electron density divided by a dimensionless constant? > >As I see it Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) pair production from ~ 0.4 ev photons, >followed by uptake of the Negatron by a Proton (H+) to form the Quasineutron with >EUV release to keep the heat going, along with, K + H2 <----> KH + H+ + e- >should do the trick. > >What more do you need? A source of energy? An explanation as to why any water exists on Earth at all, despite the presence of ample radiation from the sun of the requisite wavelength, on a daily basis? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 15:20:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08248; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:15:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:15:27 -0800 Message-ID: <00a001bf7f25$413568c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <004b01bf7ef8$07001ba0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <7tbbbsgsould93t1dnsdgs6pei10s4rc7b@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Plasma Power Converters Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:14:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"c-PdO1.0.o02.FkRju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Plasma Power Converters Robin wrote: > On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:49:32 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >OTOH, a titanium tank containing potassium and hydrogen at ~ 1,000 K could act > >as a cold plasma oscillator: f = [Ne/(1.24E10)]^1/2 Megahertz, where Ne is the number > >of electrons per cubic meter. > > Hi Fred, > > How do you get a frequency out of the the sqrt. of electron density divided > by a dimensionless constant? It's in the book on plasmas. Go figure. A Plasma is formed from energy input, and I would say a H2K plasma of 1,000 deg K has energy input. > > > > >As I see it Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) pair production from ~ 0.4 ev photons, > >followed by uptake of the Negatron by a Proton (H+) to form the Quasineutron with > >EUV release to keep the heat going, along with, K + H2 <----> KH + H+ + e- > >should do the trick. > > > >What more do you need? > > A source of energy? An explanation as to why any water exists on Earth at > all, despite the presence of ample radiation from the sun of the requisite > wavelength, on a daily basis? Oh come on, Robin. The H-O-H bonds require 4.0 ev and up to break them. Uv of that energy is stopped in the Ozone Layer. With some of your weird posts lately, I think you might be getting too much ozone. FJS > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 16:22:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26265; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:20:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:20:56 -0800 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:22:08 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000224121635.007a2990 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <200002250022.RAA03817 smtp.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <200002240004.RAA07100 smtp.asu.edu> <18.11d222d.25e4a0f0@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"ZY2gQ2.0.FQ6.dhSju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:16 PM 2/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >Lynn Kurtz wrote: > >>Skeptics, yes. Afraid?? You have to be kidding! If the Mills stuff turns >>out to be real, I am sure they would like to buy one of those 5kw >>generators or 1000 mile batteries just as eagerly as you or I would. Not >>only that, but it would open new and exciting branches of physics / >>chemistry / materials science and God knows what else for research, >>development, and commercialization. Something for everyone, including those >>"establishment physicists". > >I do not know what the skeptics honestly feel. They do not act afraid. >Probably, we will not know their reaction unless CF devices are sold in the >stores. Based on historical examples, I predict they will go on >pooh-poohing the discovery, fighting it, and ignoring its implications long >after the rest of the world had grown excited. Baloney. You can predict that but that doesn't mean it will happen. It isn't what happened with high temperature superconductivity. You seem to equate "skeptic" with "fool". >Anyway, Kurtz is wrong about some established facts. The "new and exciting >branches of physics" were opened nine years ago, when SRI, Los Alamos and >others published peer-reviewed, airtight, high-sigma replications of the >Pons-Fleischmann experiments. If we are going on a last name basis, don't put words in my mouth Rothwell. I said that if the Mills stuff is real that will open up new branches of Physics, Chemistry, and Materials science, which is true. Mills himself apparently does not associate his alleged discoveries and theories with cold fusion. I didn't say anything about cold fusion in my post. >Since Kurtz himself has expressed little interest in or knowledge >of the CF literature, perhaps he can explain to us the mindset of a >professional scientist who ignores these developments. Perhaps the professional scientist's expertise lies elsewhere. Perhaps he has a passing interest in things outside his field and likes to read about what is going on. Perhaps his life will proceed normally regardless of how CF plays out. Perhaps nobody he interacts with in person on a daily basis gives a good rat's ass whether he ignores CF developments, or even knows what CF is [purported to be]. >I personally have little interest in new and exciting physics, but I can >see that the new physics are present and have been for nine years. > >- Jed Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see 10 years of the missing water heater. I see the litany of gadgets such as the Griggs device, Popatov (not sure I spelled that one right), PowerGen demo, Case cell and others I have forgotten all come in as the Next Big Thing (TM) and fade into obscurity. I see Mallove welch on the Merriman / Mallove wager. I see Scott Little, who I believe knows what he is doing with a calorimeter, repeatedly fail to find excess heat on every experiment he tries to duplicate. I see the people and companies that claim to have something keep the details secret and fail to cooperate with others (Storms and Mizuno excepted). I see why the skeptics are skeptics. No, Rothwell, I don't have the time, interest, or inclination to study the CF literature, and I can certainly understand why many other "professional scientists" feel the same way. Does that help you understand? --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 16:31:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29830; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:28:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:28:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:24:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Resent-Message-ID: <"NOWQe3.0.xH7.toSju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >The >>financial markets, properly, are the province of the rich and of those few >>who, though not rich, have the brilliance of intellect and the iron >>discipline which successful investing requires. The rest should hold their >>savings in the form of gold at a private storage facility (not a bank), and >>invest only in areas that enhance their own life . . . > >Ummm . . . Why gold, in particular? Why not gravel, salt, or silicon >wafers? Or palladium, which happens to be worth a lot more than gold at >present. Someday, perhaps next week, perhaps in 2010, someone will figure >out a cheap method of extracting gold from sea water, or a way to transmute >a cheaper metal into gold, and then the value of gold will plummet. If most >people put all of their eggs in this gold basket of yours, they will be >wiped out. ***{In real terms, the prices of virtually all commodities have been falling for thousands of years, yet gold has remained relatively valuable throughout that same time span. Why? Because something about the physics of gold has caused nature to create it in limited quantities, relative to most other things. Since it is relatively rare in nature, and since technological advancements that render it more easily obtainable also render other things more easily obtainable, the relative rarity of gold, for thousands of years, has been little affected by the steady advancement of technology. If, for example, technological advancement on some future date renders it easier to extract gold from sea water, those same advancements will render it easier to extract other things from sea water as well. And, since gold is present in sea water at much lower abundances than most other things, it is likely that the supplies of other commodities will increase by vastly more than the supply of gold increases. If that happens, the relative scarcity which is the basis for the market value of gold will *increase* rather than decrease, and its purchasing power in real terms will go up, not down. --MJ}*** This breakthrough is bound to happen sooner or later, because >gold is useful stuff and we'd like to have a hundred million tons of it at >$10 per ton. Why not? It's great for electronics! > >There is no inherent, permanent value in any material good or commodity. >Any material thing can be made ten times cheaper, or a thousand times >cheaper, if we find a reason to make it cheaper. Intangible things like >intelligence, education and innovation are a safer investment than gold. ***{Savings and investment are two different things, in spite of the financial community hype to the contrary. For our savings, we need a reliable store of value, something which is relatively immune to the vicissitudes of politics and not dependent on our judgments about the managerial or financial acumen of other human beings, or on their judgments about us. It needs to be high in purchasing power per unit of weight, non-perishable, easily divisible, portable, etc. Based on the track records of the various media that have been used for this purpose over the span of recorded human history, it appears that the best choice for such a purpose is gold. If you are interested in detailed reasoning concerning why this is the case, I would recommend the writings of members of the so called "Austrian" school of economics--e.g., Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, Murray Rothbard. Another good source would be the writings of financial consultant Harry Browne, particularly his long-out-of-print tome: *How You Can Profit From the Coming Devaluation*. --MJ}*** > >The whole solar system will soon be within our grasp, except Jupiter ***{I doubt that any humans will be deliberately landing on *any* of the giant planets for quite a while. Saturn, Neptune, and Uranus are just as off limits as Jupiter, for pretty much the same reasons: overly strong gravitational fields, excessive atmospheric pressures, extreme cold, enormously powerful storms, and corrosive agents in the atmosphere. I doubt that we are within 100 years of a deliberate landing on any of the gas giants, even under the most optimistic scenarios. --MJ}*** , and >the amount of gold, iron, deuterium, lithium and other elements in the >planets and asteroids is beyond all imagination. Someday when >self-replicating robots do the work of extracting and refining, anyone one >who wants a billion tons of gold or any other raw material will have it for >the asking. That may not happen this century, perhaps not the next, but it >will come about eventually. The whole trajectory of history is moving in >that direction. ***{As noted above, technological advancement improves access to all deposits of natural resources, rather than merely to gold deposits, and thus does nothing to alter the relative abundances of those resources. In addition, if mankind moves into space the result will be a population explosion of monumental proportions, with a consequent vast increase in the demand for industrial raw materials, including gold, and an even larger increase in the demand for store-of-value media (i.e., real money), in which gold is favored over all others. Result: the purchasing power of gold is likely to increase under such circumstances even more rapidly than that of other commodities. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 16:32:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA30274; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:29:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:29:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:29:00 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"XyNLr.0.vO7.1qSju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - > The whole solar system will soon be > within our grasp, except Jupiter [...] Europa. Europa is off limits. "Attept no landing there..." - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 19:08:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16392; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:01:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:01:36 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <84.1e03d89.25e74a67 aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:00:55 EST Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"YC-Ib1.0.204.G2Vju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/23/2000 7:04:28 PM, Lynn Kurtz wrote: << Let's hope it's true, but I'm not going to quit my day job to set up a dealership in selling those batteries just yet. >> Not to worry. No dealerships are on offer. That's another fundamental difference between Mills and the conmen who infest "the o-u biz," as Jed called it. Mills doesn't sell phony dealerships in nonexistent products. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 19:13:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16653; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:02:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:02:06 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:01:03 EST Subject: Re: [Fwd: The Village Voice: Letters:] To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"EhtoF2.0.744.k2Vju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/24/2000 3:24:04 PM, Akira Kawasaki wrote: << ps: Yes Tom, I will be sending the tapes. :) >> Thanks for the good word. I was wondering about that. It's good to know that neither you nor the postal service have collapsed. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 20:37:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10648; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:36:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:36:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000224233134.007eb740 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:31:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent In-Reply-To: <200002250022.RAA03817 smtp.asu.edu> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224121635.007a2990 pop.mindspring.com> <200002240004.RAA07100 smtp.asu.edu> <18.11d222d.25e4a0f0 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2eHpt.0.Ac2.rQWju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:22 PM 2/24/00 -0700, Lynn Kurtz wrote: >Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see 10 years of the missing water >heater. I see the litany of gadgets such as the Griggs device, Popatov (not >sure I spelled that one right), PowerGen demo, Case cell and others I have >forgotten all come in as the Next Big Thing (TM) and fade into obscurity. I >see Mallove welch on the Merriman / Mallove wager. I see Scott Little, who >I believe knows what he is doing with a calorimeter, repeatedly fail to >find excess heat on every experiment he tries to duplicate. I see the >people and companies that claim to have something keep the details secret >and fail to cooperate with others (Storms and Mizuno excepted). I see why >the skeptics are skeptics. > >No, Rothwell, I don't have the time, interest, or inclination to study the >CF literature, and I can certainly understand why many other "professional >scientists" feel the same way. > >Does that help you understand? > >--Lynn Since you dont have the the "time, interest, or inclination to study the CF literature", your inaccurate comments about LENR/CF, about devices that are not related to LENR/CF, about the purported "missing" water heater, and about your purported claim of lack of cooperation in the field, are now better understood. Methinks, Jed Rothwell's comments about the skeptics, and the presence of new areas in physics for the last decade, ARE correct. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 20:52:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23112; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:50:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:50:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <008a01bf7f17$93f5d440$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <200002232100.WAA10257 front2.grolier.fr> <3.0.6.32.20000224160602.007937c0@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:36:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"mrOn92.0.1f5.ceWju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Swartz To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 01:29 PM 2/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > >Vigier believes, as do many other people, that the electron and proton can > get > >close enough together in a solid to act, for a very short time, like a > virtual > >neutron. The mechanism of this collapse in their minds is different from the > >mechanism proposed by Mills and each person proposing this process seems to > >have a different explanation. I hope this will help. > > > >Ed Storms > > > > also, and easier to get (from Dieter's biblio): > > Vigier JP; Phys, Lett A 221 (1996) 138. > "On cathodically polarized Pd/D systems" > Vigier points out that the proposal of Szpak et al in the same journal A210 > (1996) 382 is significant for "cold fusion" and in fact in line with his > (Vigier's) own previous theories, as well as others. Essentially, "tight" > Bohr orbits are proposed, with attendant implications. 031996|091996 By that "Logic" the 100+ Megabar Hydrogen Core of Jupiter should be a thermonuclear bomb. Horse Puckey! FJS > > > Mitchell Swartz > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 21:16:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21709; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:14:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:14:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000224231442.00732e50 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:14:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP: new experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"loWm3.0._I5.D_Wju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At the suggestion of George Holz, I looked again at the BlackLight Power website. On this page... http://www.blacklightpower.com/experiments.html ...there are a few new listings of "experiments and validations". After looking at the first two: 1. Temporal Behavior of Light-Emission in the Visible Spectral Range from the Ti-KCO3-H-Cell 2. Electrical and Optical Characteristics of Hydrino Plasma ...I certainly agree that they are "experiments"...it's the "validation" part that concerns me. The 2nd one is the more substantial experiment. It explores the onset of glow discharge in a cell containing hydrogen gas and either K or Na ions. With K ions present, the glow starts at 20-30 volts. With Na present, it doesn't start until ~250 volts. They conclude that this demonstrates hydrino formation that occurs only when K is present. There is little or no exploration of possible mundane causes for this difference. For example, the spontaneous onset of glow discharge can be quite sensitive to a number of factors, especially the work function of the electrodes involved. K ions adhering to the metal surfaces will lower the work function somewhat more than Na ions (Cs does it best of all alkali metals). Also, the Na2CO3 and K2CO3 presumably produce different partial pressures of CO2 and metal ions at the 640C operating temperature of the cell. No discussion of these issues is presented. To me, the observed difference between Na and K is an interesting phenomenon that deserves further exploration. In my opinion, it hardly qualifies, as presented, as evidence for hydrino formation when K is present. Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 00:06:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24087; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:04:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:04:56 -0800 Message-ID: <00d801bf7f6f$3779f4a0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:02:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"HeoJi1.0.Hu5.cUZju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the late 1960s when the impressive heat transport capability of heat pipes was recognized, a simple heat pipe could be made by partially filling an aluminum tube with distilled water and applying heat to purge the non-condensible gas from the then sealing it off. This made a heat pipe that would operate from 32 F to over 700 f. However, even around 200 F, the reaction, 3 H2O + Al ---> Al(OH)3 + 3 H occurred, creating a non-condensible zone at the condenser end of the heat pipe, rendering it inoperable. Is it possible that some of this non-condensible (H2?) gas was Hydrinos or Hydrino Hydride? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 00:46:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA14641; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:44:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:44:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00de01bf7f74$b55a6f80$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 01:42:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"hDRD23.0.ha3.e3aju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An aqueous solution of K2CO3 in an iron or glass vessel when slightly heated will act on aluminum foil (or beer cans): Al + 3 H2O -----> Al(OH)3 + 3 H The potassium aluminate formed acts as a catalyst to effect this reaction. Easy enough to freeze the solution and check the gases for Hydrinos. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 06:01:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA10241; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 05:59:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 05:59:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225084557.007e7500 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:45:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier In-Reply-To: <008a01bf7f17$93f5d440$6f441d26 fjsparber> References: <200002232100.WAA10257 front2.grolier.fr> <3.0.6.32.20000224160602.007937c0 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"43orZ.0.xV2.Cheju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:36 PM 2/24/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mitchell Swartz >To: >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:06 PM >Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier > >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > >> At 01:29 PM 2/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > >> > >> >Vigier believes, as do many other people, that the electron and proton can >> get >> >close enough together in a solid to act, for a very short time, like a >> virtual >> >neutron. The mechanism of this collapse in their minds is different from the >> >mechanism proposed by Mills and each person proposing this process seems to >> >have a different explanation. I hope this will help. >> > >> >Ed Storms >> > >> >> also, and easier to get (from Dieter's biblio): >> >> Vigier JP; Phys, Lett A 221 (1996) 138. >> "On cathodically polarized Pd/D systems" >> Vigier points out that the proposal of Szpak et al in the same journal A210 >> (1996) 382 is significant for "cold fusion" and in fact in line with his >> (Vigier's) own previous theories, as well as others. Essentially, "tight" >> Bohr orbits are proposed, with attendant implications. 031996|091996 > >By that "Logic" the 100+ Megabar Hydrogen Core of Jupiter should be >a thermonuclear bomb. > >Horse Puckey! > >FJS Come on, you seem jealous that, unlike sparbarinos and the handwaving that goes with their putative claim, Dr. Vigier and others put their ideas through peer-review, AND have some theoretical basis. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 06:57:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27846; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:55:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:55:31 -0800 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:55:23 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: BeginningHV Circuit Safety (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"Y9Q0i.0.yo6.YVfju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: USE A SPOTTER > > 3a] A "Spotter" is someone who is with you when you >do this work who is alert, not drinking beer and so on, who will cut power >and safe you if things go wrong. > This line made me laugh, I don't work with 120 V electricity when I've been drinking, let alone HV From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 06:58:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28162; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:57:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:57:19 -0800 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:57:10 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004b01bf7ef8$07001ba0$6f441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: Plasma Power Converters Resent-Message-ID: <"XRgXw2.0.yt6.EXfju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/33999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >I don't know if this is what Mills is aiming for in his "$1500.00" home >converter unit. > >OTOH, a titanium tank containing potassium and hydrogen at ~ 1,000 K >could act >as a cold plasma oscillator: f = [Ne/(1.24E10)]^1/2 Megahertz, where >Ne is the number >of electrons per cubic meter. As I was reading your post I was thinking about Mill's technology. I'm wondering about this Ti tank with K and H, is this something that is commercially available? I noticed the acronym OTOH what is that? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 07:59:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17643; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:57:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:57:08 -0800 Message-ID: <010701bf7fb1$30cacfc0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Plasma Power Converters Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:55:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"aV31D1.0.bJ4.KPgju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: thomas Malloy To: Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 6:57 AM Subject: Re: Plasma Power Converters Thomas wrote: > > As I was reading your post I was thinking about Mill's technology. I'm > wondering about this Ti tank with K and H, is this something that is > commercially available? I noticed the acronym OTOH what is that? Of course. OTOH (on the other hand) > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 08:38:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32155; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:36:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:36:29 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <54.199d78f.25e80962 aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:35:46 EST Subject: Alfa Aesar High Purity Metals To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 61 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gdxwg2.0.Ls7.C-gju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Recieved this today (Friday) from Alfa Aesar. This may be of interest to those conducting PF type electrolysis. Vince Cockeram Temporaraly in Elmont, Long Island, New York. Subj: Free - High Purity Metals Catalog Date: 2/24/00 11:40:50 PM Pacific Standard Time From: catalogs alfa.com (Request Catalogs) A brand new "High Purity Metals" catalog is now available from Alfa Aesar, a Johnson Matthey company. The 284-page catalog contains thousands of metal products, from aluminum to zirconium, for research and production applications. Look to the Alfa Aesar "High Purity Metals" catalog for: * Variety of forms (foil, wire, shot, powder, gauze, slug, etc.) * Purities up to 99.99999% * Competitive pricing for large and small quantities * Most orders filled directly from stock and ship same day For more details and to request your free copy, click http://www.alfa.com/catalog/metalscat2K.html?MAIL=met02 or simply send a reply to this email and include your mailing address. You can also call toll free at (800) 343-0660. Alfa Aesar plans to occasionally send email notifications to our customers, limiting notifications primarily to new catalog announcements. To be removed from this mailing list, simply reply to this message with remove as the subject line. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 08:47:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02647; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:44:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:44:39 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:56:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20000225165601921.AAA115 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"-gphD3.0.Cf.s5hju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >In the late 1960s when the impressive heat transport capability of heat pipes was recognized, a >simple >heat pipe could be made by partially filling an aluminum tube with distilled water and applying >heat to >purge the non-condensible gas from the then sealing it off. > >This made a heat pipe that would operate from 32 F to over 700 f. > >However, even around 200 F, the reaction, 3 H2O + Al ---> Al(OH)3 + 3 H occurred, >creating a non-condensible zone at the condenser end of the heat pipe, rendering it inoperable. > >Is it possible that some of this non-condensible (H2?) gas was Hydrinos or Hydrino Hydride? > >Regards, Frederick I wouldn't know Fred, but you might be interested in what Professor Rusek has quite successfully been doing at Purdue. I was thinking about writing to him, and suggesting a similar happening to what you have suggested, but you would be more qualified to do that. What he is working on is a H2O2 fuel cell that has an Al anode and a dummy electrode. The two electrolytes that he has worked with so far are NaOH and..... KOH. The KOH seems to work better, and you may know why. What he is saying is that the H2O2 acts as a "catholyte" when added to the electrolyte, meaning that is not only is a conductor, but also a supplier of electrons. The H2O2 gives up an O atom at the anode, and an electron is released. The reaction pattern is quite interesting in that it takes two hours to get started, during which time no electricity is produced, but then for about 1/2 an hour, a large surge of electricity is produced that tapers off to a steady flow for many hours until the the H2O2 supply is exhausted. To date, no calorimetry has been performed on the cell as far as the report that I have goes, but the cell has been developed to the point of delivering over 2/3 of the theoretical limit of the amount of electricity that it should with just a minimum amount of investigation. Rusek has found that by not using pure Al, he doesn't get any aluminum oxide sludge. The energy density / size ratio make the cell a very promising primary battery type source of power as compared to the currently used batteries. Dr. Rusek is asking for suggestions for getting the reaction starting time down, some engineering suggestions for materials, and any other help. i don't have a website address but his e-mail is: rusek ecn.purdue.edu and his whole report is 10 megs in .pdf format. Good reading. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 09:18:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13939; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:14:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:14:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225121403.007a1ad0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:14:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Alfa Aesar High Purity Metals In-Reply-To: <54.199d78f.25e80962 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LPRSD2.0.jP3.pXhju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: >Recieved this today (Friday) from Alfa Aesar. >This may be of interest to those conducting PF type electrolysis. Alfa Aesar is owned by Johnson Matthey. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 09:47:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23635; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:44:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:44:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225124439.007a5c60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:44:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent In-Reply-To: <84.1e03d89.25e74a67 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8dDae1.0.9n5.P-hju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: >Not to worry. No dealerships are on offer. That's another fundamental >difference between Mills and the conmen who infest "the o-u biz," as Jed >called it. Mills doesn't sell phony dealerships in nonexistent products. That's true, and it is very much to his credit. Despite my rude comments about him, I respect Mills and I wish him success. The 1992 Thermacore experiments & presentation were impressive. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 09:48:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24483; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:46:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:46:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225124619.0079cbf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:46:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BeginningHV Circuit Safety (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: < Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ky3Bi1.0.T-5.__hju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, I think, wrote: >USE A SPOTTER > > 3a] A "Spotter" is someone who is with you when you >do this work who is alert, not drinking beer and so on, who will cut power >and safe you if things go wrong. And what do you do if your spotter's blotto? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 10:12:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32651; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:11:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:11:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000225121102.01321474 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:11:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety In-Reply-To: <20000224040258828.AAA63 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ktgQM3.0.5-7.rMiju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:02 PM 2/23/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >What I haven't seen so far however, is a comprehensive, >public domain treatment of the dangers of HV circuits, especially the proper >wiring of capacitors for DC and AC circuits, and for the proper methods of >discharging them. I got most of my experience the hard way. A good rule of thumb that won't fail you is to treat anything that's at high voltage like it was red hot. You don't dare touch it...or even get very close to it. And don't let anything else get close to it...especially expensive meters, etc. A wonderful life-saving convenience is to start out with a HV supply with a big series resistor so it is current-limited to a few 10's of microamps. That'll still produce sparks and nice shocks but you won't die if you make a mistake. Stay away from >milliamps until you get some experience. I work by myself all the time and, although I've experienced minor shocks many times in the past, I've only gotten one or two that really sat me down for a while. Those experiences stick with you damned well! Where you start to get into real dangerous territory is when you charge big capacitors to high voltages. We have a 2 mfd 10,000 volt capacitor here that discharges with a bang like a .45 going off! I guess that's not surprising since it stores 100 joules when fully charged. That's enough energy to lift me (250 lbs) about 10 cm vertically! To discharge this thing gently, I taped a 50k resistor to the end of a 2' long wooden dowel rod. I use this "wand" to connect across the capacitor for ~10 seconds (100 time constants). Another nice thing to have is a 2' long wooden dowel with a heavy flexible wire taped to the end of the dowel. Connect the other end of the flexible wire to a good ground and that gives you a "ground wand" which you can always touch to something BEFORE you touch it with your fingers. Instructions: If a big nasty spark jumps to the ground wand, don't touch the item with your fingers! Good luck and have fun. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 10:44:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA11397; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:42:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:42:54 -0800 Message-ID: <390608596.951504168578.JavaMail.root web34.pub01> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:42:48 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman), vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.227 Resent-Message-ID: <"qzrwK.0.Cn2.iqiju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many years of work and many millions of $ were spent investigating the Aluminum Air Fuel Cell for possible electric cars applications during the 1970s and 80s at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. The record are almost all in the public domain. The small part that was proprietary was sold to Alcan which for awhile was involved with Unique Mobility in Denver. I think cost knocked it out of the game. LLNL estimated gasoline would have to rise to $3.50/per gallon (before inflation adjustment which would make the price even higher) to be practical in the market. A small private firm in the U.S. has continued parallel development. I've forgotten their name but a patent search would bring it up. ------Original Message------ From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: February 25, 2000 4:56:01 PM GMT Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Fred writes: >In the late 1960s when the impressive heat transport capability of heat pipes was recognized, a >simple >heat pipe could be made by partially filling an aluminum tube with distilled water and applying >heat to >purge the non-condensible gas from the then sealing it off. > >This made a heat pipe that would operate from 32 F to over 700 f. > >However, even around 200 F, the reaction, 3 H2O + Al ---> Al(OH)3 + 3 H occurred, >creating a non-condensible zone at the condenser end of the heat pipe, rendering it inoperable. > >Is it possible that some of this non-condensible (H2?) gas was Hydrinos or Hydrino Hydride? > >Regards, Frederick I wouldn't know Fred, but you might be interested in what Professor Rusek has quite successfully been doing at Purdue. I was thinking about writing to him, and suggesting a similar happening to what you have suggested, but you would be more qualified to do that. What he is working on is a H2O2 fuel cell that has an Al anode and a dummy electrode. The two electrolytes that he has worked with so far are NaOH and..... KOH. The KOH seems to work better, and you may know why. What he is saying is that the H2O2 acts as a "catholyte" when added to the electrolyte, meaning that is not only is a conductor, but also a supplier of electrons. The H2O2 gives up an O atom at the anode, and an electron is released. The reaction pattern is quite interesting in that it takes two hours to get started, during which time no electricity is produced, but then for about 1/2 an hour, a large surge of electricity is produced that tapers off to a steady flow for many hours until the the H2O2 supply is exhausted. To date, no calorimetry has been performed on the cell as far as the report that I have goes, but the cell has been developed to the point of delivering over 2/3 of the theoretical limit of the amount of electricity that it should with just a minimum amount of investigation. Rusek has found that by not using pure Al, he doesn't get any aluminum oxide sludge. The energy density / size ratio make the cell a very promising primary battery type source of power as compared to the currently used batteries. Dr. Rusek is asking for suggestions for getting the reaction starting time down, some engineering suggestions for materials, and any other help. i don't have a website address but his e-mail is: rusek ecn.purdue.edu and his whole report is 10 megs in .pdf format. Good reading. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm Mark Goldes ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 11:41:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30372; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:39:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:39:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225143918.007a5210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:39:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BlackLight Power Patent In-Reply-To: <200002250022.RAA03817 smtp.asu.edu> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224121635.007a2990 pop.mindspring.com> <200002240004.RAA07100 smtp.asu.edu> <18.11d222d.25e4a0f0 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HQuoD2.0.PQ7.wfjju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: >>Based on historical examples, I predict they will go on >>pooh-poohing the discovery, fighting it, and ignoring its implications long >>after the rest of the world had grown excited. > >Baloney. You can predict that but that doesn't mean it will happen. Quite right! Predicting events in society is anything but an exact science. All we can do is look at similar events in history and extrapolate. >It isn't what happened with high temperature superconductivity. Ah, but that is because nobody's interests were threatened by HTSC. There was no established market for devices which performed like HTSC and which become obsolete or much cheaper. In Christensen's formulation, HTSC are "sustaining" technology, not "dispruptive." (See "The Innovators Dilemma," (Harvard Business School Press, 1997) >You seem to equate "skeptic" with "fool". No, not at all. Some of the smartest people in history made the mistakes I listed. Remember, I am not making this stuff up. I have a very limited imagination, and I always stick to recorded events in well documented sources. The French army really did threaten to cashier officers who showed interest in airplanes. Smart people sometimes do incredibly stupid things. The Japanese officers who attacked Pearl Harbor were smart people. Some of them were brilliant, and most were nice, honest, sane, balanced, fair . . . (By most accounts, anyway.) But they made an awful mistake -- a suicidal, unprofessional, irrational, tragic misjudgement. >If we are going on a last name basis, don't put words in my mouth Rothwell. Surnames are the normal thing in Japan, Britain, and science. It avoids confusion. >I said that if the Mills stuff is real that will open up new branches of >Physics, Chemistry, and Materials science, which is true. Mills himself >apparently does not associate his alleged discoveries and theories with >cold fusion. I didn't say anything about cold fusion in my post. I agree you did not. But you did say that when the door opens on new branches of physics, people get excited and scientists rush to explore the New Thing. I say you cannot count on that happening. Yes, they rush in when a sustaining innovation is made, because it threatens nobody's interests and benefits everyone in the field. But when the door opened on Disruptive New Physics in 1990, people did not rush through it. On the contrary, they slammed it shut, and at the APS they are still hammering nails to keep it shut. Scientist who talk about CF are still told they will be fired. This is not surprising. When you look at similar incidents in the history of science, business, medicine, the military and other fields that require specialized, professional knowledge, you see the same pattern of behavior. >>Since Kurtz himself has expressed little interest in or knowledge >>of the CF literature, perhaps he can explain to us the mindset of a >>professional scientist who ignores these developments. > >Perhaps the professional scientist's expertise lies elsewhere. Perhaps he >has a passing interest in things outside his field and likes to read about >what is going on. Perhaps his life will proceed normally regardless of how >CF plays out. Well, that is true for a large body of scientists. There are indeed many people who have nothing to lose and little to gain if CF succeeds. But in my experience, these people are generally neutral or friendly toward CF. The ones who attack it are generally physicists whose theories stand to lose, big-name scientists who staked their reputations on CF being wrong, and hot fusion scientists whose budgets will be cut. I have never seen attacks by oil company or power company execs. I think they do not take the idea seriously, and they cannot imagine a world in which their empires are overthrown. To give a similar example, passenger steamship and railroad executives did not worry about competition from airplanes in 1925 or even 1935. They simply could not envision a world in which their industry was obsolete, even though everyone else, outside their industry, knew very well that in 10 years airplanes would start to take away large chunks of their business. Mainframe computer company execs outside of IBM did not react to microcomputers until long after the damage was done and their fates were sealed. > Perhaps nobody he interacts with in person on a daily basis >gives a good rat's ass whether he ignores CF developments, or even knows >what CF is [purported to be]. That's likely. >Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see 10 years of the missing water >heater. That is a good example of selective, irrational thinking. You seen no commercial products based upon HTSC, or quarks, yet you would never judge these these discoveries on that basis. Surely you have read enough of history to realize that in some cases 50 to 100 years has passed before a laboratory discovery results in a practical device, in cases such as photography, semiconductors, and low temperature superconductivity. Furthremore, you know the technical difficulties with materials which prevent easy replication and predictable behavior in CF (and in HTSC for that matter -- the problems are very similar). > I see the litany of gadgets such as the Griggs device, Popatov (not >sure I spelled that one right), PowerGen demo, Case cell and others I have >forgotten all come in as the Next Big Thing (TM) and fade into obscurity. But this is illogical. These devices have nothing whatever to do with the metal lattice CF claims made by Pons, Fleischmann, McKubre, Miles and all the others. Miles has never heard of Griggs! How can you stake his credibility on claims made by someone else, about a completely different physical system? You might as well condemn CF because of the mistakes made by the Japanese breeder reactor program, or the collapse of the U.S. Savings and Loan industry. >I see Scott Little, who >I believe knows what he is doing with a calorimeter, repeatedly fail to >find excess heat on every experiment he tries to duplicate. I am sure he does know what he is doing with a calorimeter, but the calorimetry is the easiest part of a CF experiment. Little himself will tell you that he has *never* attempted to do the hard parts, which involve measuring electrochemical parameters (OCV, loading, excess expansion, and so on), and before-and-after materials analysis, which takes months and hundreds of thousands of dollars. He is working blind, and there is no way anyone can guess why his experiments fail, or what steps he should take to improve them. Little and I keep hoping that some form of CF will be discovered which allows us to replicate without measuring the parameters and without knowing the details. That's a legitimate hope, but so far it has not happened. CF still consists of 5% calorimetry, 45% electrochemistry, and 50% materials science. (Of course, some people screw up the first and easiest 5% part! Little is miles ahead of Harwell and Caltech.) The difficult 95% of CF involves things like interactions at thin films, H2 (or D2) formation at thes surface, absorbtion, catalysis, and materials problems so complex I would not know how to describe them. These are IMMENSELY subjects, with a huge literature. They are critical to a broad range of industries from semiconductors to oil refining and pollution control. Solving a problem similar to CF, such as designing an effective Pd automotive catalytic converter, requires hundreds of millions of dollars and teams of experts. CF is every bit as complicated, yet it is being done on a shoestring by a few scattered individuals. Under the circumstances, it is amazing how much progress they have made, and it would be a miracle if Scott Little or I could replicate by shooting blind in the dark. In 1940, William Shockley tried to make a transistor with a piece of oxidized copper, which "had apparently been cut out of some very old copper back porch screen with very dull scissors." In principle it might have worked. One of his colleagues later wrote: "so here he had the three elements of a transistor, these two wires and the copper screen. Of course, he was *orders of magnitude* away from anything that would work!" You go about blindly mucking with palladium in heavy water or some other CF experiment, and you too may be *orders of magnitude* away from anything that would work, and you will never know it. >I see the >people and companies that claim to have something keep the details secret >and fail to cooperate with others (Storms and Mizuno excepted). But you must realize (I hope!) this industry always works this way, and this same problem is holding back HTSC and many other developments. Intel does not share trade secrets. CF companies are denied patents, so the normal industry method of sharing technology is cut off. In some ways, it is unfortunate that CF is being pursued as commerial enterprise rather than as pure science. >I see why the skeptics are skeptics. You seem to be seeing many things which are not there, and missing much that is. You apparently believe that Scott Little has mastered the techiques of CF, when in fact he has mastered only a tiny part of them. In a university or corporate CF lab, the calorimetery would be left to a low level technian or a grad student. It is not even considered important enough to merit the attention of the real experts. That is one of the reasons the calorimetry is sometimes screwed up, alas. >No, Rothwell, I don't have the time, interest, or inclination to study the >CF literature, and I can certainly understand why many other "professional >scientists" feel the same way. Well, if you have not read the literature, you have no business holding or expressing any opinions about the subject, positive or negative. You do not see me posting messages in the Chinese language forums, do you? Since I know virtually nothing about Chinese, except maybe enough to puzzle out a resturant menu, I would make a fool of myself if I pontificated about that subject. I presume you have, at least, read the Storms papers on my web site and the on-line papers about tritium at Los Alamos. That would hardly qualify you to hold an opinion, but you should have some idea what the hell I am talking about. Frankly, it amazes me that a professional who says he has "not read the literature" would even *dream* of offering an opinion about this kind of subject. Imagine a linguist who has spent years exploring the depths of complexity of Italian, Basque or Norwegian. She happens to read a tourist wordbook about Japanese one day. Would she then feel qualified to chime in on a debate about Osaka dialect word "donai" in sci.lang.japan?!? (A fascinating subject, by the way.) It is unthinkable! She knows that all languages are difficult, and take years of study. Well, by the same token, as a working scientist you must know how tough this kind of chemistry and physics are, even if you have not studied electrochemistry or catalysis. You must have some sense of what Storms and Oriani are dealing with. So how on earth do you feel qualified to dismiss their findings? Or to voice support their findings, for that matter? >Does that help you understand? Only a little. I will never understand how an otherwise carefull, professional person could take two steps away from his area of expertise and suddenly make logical errors such as holding McKubre responsible for claims made by Griggs. I would not have made that mistake in grade school. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 13:03:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19017; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:54:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:54:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:54:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The gold non-standard In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7FOLT2.0.3f4.8mkju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{In real terms, the prices of virtually all commodities have been >falling for thousands of years, yet gold has remained relatively valuable >throughout that same time span. Interesting. But are you sure about that? Why? Because something about the physics of >gold has caused nature to create it in limited quantities, relative to most >other things. Since it is relatively rare in nature, and since >technological advancements that render it more easily obtainable also >render other things more easily obtainable, the relative rarity of gold, >for thousands of years, has been little affected by the steady advancement >of technology. If, for example, technological advancement on some future >date renders it easier to extract gold from sea water, those same >advancements will render it easier to extract other things from sea water >as well. Well that does make some sense. This is the first time I have seen a logical argument in favor of the gold standard. However, this recommendation of yours seems extraordinarily risky to me. For one thing, what nature creates is no longer the only issue. I consider it an established fact that cold fusion transmutes gold into other elements. Now I would never bet, let us say, $10,000 that CF can also transmute other, cheaper elements such as mercury into gold. I would consider that too risky. But *you* are suggesting that nearly every person on earth should bet *all of their money* that CF will never transmute mercury into gold! You are saying we should stake our entire life savings on this one proposition: that this breakthrough will not occur, even though a similar breakthrough in the other direction has already occurred. >And, since gold is present in sea water at much lower abundances >than most other things, The absolute abundance of materials is so great that relative abundances may not be important. The most valuable thing we will get out seawater will be fresh water, which is also the most abundant component. The second most abundant chemical is salt, followed by magnesium. Large-scale CF based desalination would produce so much salt and magnesium as a byproduct, that I expect the value of these two commodities will essentially drop to zero, and most of the Na, Cl and Mg will be washed right back into the ocean, as they are today. I am assuming that selective, automatic extraction of elements will become easier than it is today, and cheaper, based on some technology similar to what is used to refine U isotopes. A river of desalination feedwater will flow through the machinery, and as long as it is gurgling through, some kind of molecular sieve will be used to pull out Au, Rb, Cu and some other stuff. The Mg will wash back into the ocean, because nobody will want it. Now then, just because Au will probably remain more valuable than Mg, Cu, H, C and O for that matter, a large multiple of nothing is still nothing. If Mg costs $1 a ton, Cu costs $2, and Au costs $100, so what? I do not see why you are sure Au will remain more valuable than paper or bananas. What would stop us from reaching the point where it takes less manpower to produce a ton of Au than a ton of paper? Desalination and element filtering will require equipment and energy. It is impossible to predict the cost of the equipment, but we will need the machines anyway, for the fresh water. The energy to produce a ton of gold will cost less than $0.0000001. With or without CF, near-zero cost energy is a sure thing, in my opinion. Bananas and paper may continue to require hands-on human labor, whereas desalination and element filtering probably will not. Processing adds value to materials. The blue-tinted spring steel used in chronometers in 1800 was worth more than its weight in gold; processed silicon wafers today is worth more than gold, even though Fe and Si are among the most abundant elements. In the future, the only materials with any value will be those which still require human labor to produce, so if gold is extracted automatically from desalination feed water (as I assume it will be), it will be cheaper than processed silicon wafers, paper, LCD screens, tea leaves, or beany babies. >***{As noted above, technological advancement improves access to all >deposits of natural resources, rather than merely to gold deposits, and >thus does nothing to alter the relative abundances of those resources. We have already changed the relative abundances of elements on earth! Pu did not exist before 1942, and now we have tons of the stuff. Sooner or later we will master other ways to transmute other elements, with CF or some other method. Someday the natural abundance of elements and isotopes will mean nothing. It may begin to happen in the next 10 or 20 years. No expert in CF will dare to predict it cannot happen. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 13:09:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21380; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:03:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:03:05 -0800 Message-ID: <003b01bf7fd4$ba32d0f0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000224231442.00732e50 mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: new experiments Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:10:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"39zRP3.0.yD5.7ukju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > The 2nd one is the more substantial experiment. It explores the onset of > glow discharge in a cell containing hydrogen gas and either K or Na ions. > With K ions present, the glow starts at 20-30 volts. With Na present, it > doesn't start until ~250 volts. They conclude that this demonstrates > hydrino formation that occurs only when K is present. There is little or > no exploration of possible mundane causes for this difference. - This experiment does not necessarily say anything about hydrinos, but speaking from 25+ years of glow discharge experimental experience including some work with triple carbonate cathodes, this difference between Na and K is highly unusual. A better experiment would use pure metal Na and K sources and compare results of H2 and noble gas discharges. > > For example, the spontaneous onset of glow discharge can be quite sensitive > to a number of factors, especially the work function of the electrodes > involved. K ions adhering to the metal surfaces will lower the work > function somewhat more than Na ions (Cs does it best of all alkali metals). - This difference could account for a small percentage voltage difference at best, not the 12.5 x voltage measured. - > Also, the Na2CO3 and K2CO3 presumably produce different partial pressures > of CO2 and metal ions at the 640C operating temperature of the cell. No > discussion of these issues is presented. - The CO2 should decompose leaving C on the cathode surfaces if any significant ammount is still present when the discharge starts. Carbon usually poisons alkali cathode surfaces and results in very high starting voltages. I suspect that the CO2 may already be decomposed and absorbed at the metal surfaces just due to the 650C temperature even before the discharge measurements. > > To me, the observed difference between Na and K is an interesting > phenomenon that deserves further exploration. In my opinion, it hardly > qualifies, as presented, as evidence for hydrino formation when K is present. > Don't stop reading yet Scott, you should at least also read: http://www.blacklightpower.com/experiments.html 3. Synthesis and Characterization of Potassium Iodo Hydride - Would it be possible for you to set up either of these experiments in a calorimeter? That would make a very interesting experiment. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 13:28:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27847; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:25:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:25:00 -0800 Message-ID: <00a301bf7fd6$809a7bc0$d507aec7 craig> From: "Craig Haynie" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:23:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"-ye2P1.0.uo6.hClju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >[...] But *you* are suggesting that nearly every person on earth should > bet *all of their money* that CF will never transmute mercury into gold! > You are saying we should stake our entire life savings on this one > proposition: that this breakthrough will not occur, even though a similar > breakthrough in the other direction has already occurred. Gold will always reflect the price of the energy it takes to produce it. Currently, there are many gold mines closing down and mining the ore of the highest purity, just to stay in business. This is because the price of gold has dropped in the past year. Should it become cheaper to mine gold, through whatever methods, like seawater extraction, cosmic exploration, molecule building, etc,, then the price of gold will fall to reflect the amount of energy put into those methods of delivery. Gold is 'pure energy'. :) The value of a non-commodity based currency will always be subject to the decisions and whims of some people. During good times they'll be wise. During other times they'll be irrational. Sometimes they'll even be ignorant. (I remember a speech given by President Carter in 1977 whereby he blamed inflation on greed by businesses AND labor unions. All economists today now agree that inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply, with respect to the supply of goods and services.) Just my 2 cents... Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 13:45:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02026; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:42:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:42:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225164230.0079a810 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:42:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The gold non-standard In-Reply-To: <00a301bf7fd6$809a7bc0$d507aec7 craig> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"e8sPF.0.UV.PTlju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: >Gold will always reflect the price of the energy it takes to produce it. >Currently, there are many gold mines closing down and mining the ore of the >highest purity, just to stay in business. . . . > >Gold is 'pure energy'. :) Well, I know little about gold extraction techniques, so I will defer to Haynie's expertise. In that case, I can tell you exactly what gold will cost in the year 2100: ZERO. Zilch. Not one thin dime. If there is one prediction we can make with confidence, it is that CF or some other technology will make energy cheaper air, because energy is the most abundant resource in the universe. "It's everywhere you want to be," as one advertising slogan puts it. Or as Arthur Clarke said during the 1975 energy crises: "The era of cheap energy has ended. The era of free energy is fifty years ahead." In a way, it is surprising that energy is not already "too cheap to meter." It's an embarrassment. The fission guys back in the '50s blew it. Freeman Dyson, who worked on some of the first power reactors, said they should have done better. See his essay "Little Red Schoolhouse," in "Disturbing the Universe," (Harper & Row, 1979). Anyway, their failure left the field open for CF, so in the long term view of history it may turn out to be a good thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:04:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06835; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:55:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:55:03 -0800 Message-ID: <38B6FE4B.2537FE78 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:12:27 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 25, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lapCb1.0.hg1.telju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Feb 25, 2000 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 25 Feb 00 Washington, DC 1. DOE: SCIENCE BUDGET JEOPARDIZED BY CAPUANO AMENDMENT. Last week, the House passed H.R. 2086, The Networking and Information Technology Research and Development Act, authorizing $3B for fiscal years 2000-2004, but not before a bizarre amendment was agreed to. Rep. Michael Capuano (D-MA), whose district includes MIT, proposed shifting half the IT money designated for DOE to NSF. Ellen Tauscher (D-CA), in whose district both the Lawrence Berkeley and Livermore National Labs reside, was the only one to speak against the amendment prior to its passage on a voice vote. She noted that, among other things, the measure would close the National Energy Research Scientific Computing Center at LBL, the nation's most powerful unclassified computer facility. The lack of any effective opposition is troubling. Although the amendment creates too much chaos to be enacted into law, it will divert energy away from passing the best DOE science budget in years. The motives of Mr. Capuano are the subject of much speculation. 2. DIET SUMMIT: THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY MIGHT BE HELPFUL. Eighty-five percent of Americans list weight loss as their top goal, but studies find we are going the other way. So Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman invited authors of the most popular diet plans to Washington to debate nutrition. At one extreme there was Dr. Dean Ornish pushing his high-carbohydrate diet, and at the other Dr. Atkins, the current number one best-selling author, urging people to eat the hamburger patty and the cheese and throw away the bun. Atkins, who didn't look exactly svelte, took a postprandial nap during the proceedings. Since all of these best-selling authors have become millionaires, WN decided to offer the "physics plan": burn more calories than you consume. 3. PROLIFERATION: SPACE STATION HELD HOSTAGE BY THE SENATE. In a unanimous vote, the Senate yesterday called for the President to certify that Russia's space agency has not aided Iran's missile program before we will help pay for Russia's "contribution" to the International Space Station. In spite of the recent gains by reformers, Iran is apparently continuing to develop missile technology, as well as chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Although the White House threatened a veto of the House version passed last September, the administration seems satisfied with changes in the Senate bill. No one seemed very concerned about the impact on the faltering space station program. Proponents of a station might in fact welcome sanctions as a chance to blame the growing embarrassment of the ISS entirely on the Russians. 4. CLONING: TASTEFUL IDEAS PORE IN FROM READERS. As did spelling corrections (WN 18 Feb 00). The WN favorite: clone types who are almost extinct, such as airline reservation operators, kindly proposal reviewers and honest politicians, while admitting that the later category might require exhumation. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:20:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13212; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:18:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:18:39 -0800 Message-ID: <38B6FFDC.EFDEB6 info2000.net> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:19:08 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The gold non-standard References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t88ZF1.0.fD3._-lju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Until CF does give us cheap gold, I think I will just hang on to my gold coins and see what the commodities markets do. Have a good one, Ted From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:24:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14021; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:22:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:22:07 -0800 Message-ID: <38B700C3.49E1516B info2000.net> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:22:59 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The gold non-standard References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60@pop.mindspring.com> <00a301bf7fd6$809a7bc0$d507aec7@craig> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I-nF2.0._Q3.F2mju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How about we use tulips for currency? ;) Ted From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:45:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29193; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:30:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:30:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00be01bf7fdf$a081a9f0$d507aec7 craig> From: "Craig Haynie" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com><3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225164230.0079a810@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:28:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"ftln23.0.u77.6Amju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Well, I know little about gold extraction techniques, so I will defer to > Haynie's expertise. In that case, I can tell you exactly what gold will > cost in the year 2100: ZERO. Zilch. Not one thin dime. But what's the by-product? If we get a tremendous amount of energy, equivalent to an atomic bomb, for each ounce of gold produced, then we won't be seeing machines churning out cart after cart of gold. Also, don't forget the expense of mining and transporting the raw material. If we're making gold from hydrogen and nickel, then how many truckloads of nickel will we have to import? Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:46:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22114; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:43:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:43:45 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:43:00 EST Subject: Re: BeginningHV Circuit Safety (fwd) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 61 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fv3wZ1.0.OP5.WMmju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/25/00 9:49:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes: << Vince, I think, wrote: >USE A SPOTTER No, not me, but I agree. <> > And what do you do if your spotter's blotto? > Jed Then best power off and get blotto with your spotter. Early in my career with IBM I got nailed with a keypunch plate supply (150vdc), temporary amnesia for 4 hours was the result, so I have great respect for loose electrons. Like Scott says, treat HV wiring like it is red hot steel. I built a crowbar relay into my HV supply. It's a heavy duty 2 pole single throw normally closed contacts across the HV output with a 300 ohm 100 watt resistor in series. Relay closes when power supply is off. Vince Cockeram Displaced in New York till Tuesday From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:48:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00722; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:45:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:45:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225174446.00790e50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:44:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The gold non-standard In-Reply-To: <00be01bf7fdf$a081a9f0$d507aec7 craig> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225164230.0079a810 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5EjeQ1.0.6B.8Omju" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: >But what's the by-product? If we get a tremendous amount of energy, >equivalent to an atomic bomb, for each ounce of gold produced, then we won't >be seeing machines churning out cart after cart of gold. Well, not on earth, anyway. It might be okay off-planet somewhere. Bring an asteroid near the sun, vaporize it or make a plasma, separate out the Au atoms . . . But why would anyone want megatons of the stuff anyway? I mean, I could use a few kg in my computer and my teeth, but I wouldn't want to build a house out of gold, or pave my driveway with it, even if it was cheaper than bricks. It's kinda slippery for pavement. >Also, don't forget the expense of mining and transporting the raw material. Whoa! I thought you said that energy is the only major cost element. "Gold is 'pure energy.'" If mining, transport, manpower and other stuff contribute significantly to the cost of gold, all bets are off and I would not want to predict the cost circa 2100. Anyway, it'll be a lot cheaper than it is now, and possibly cheaper than Kleenex tissues. That's a safe prediction. As for the present, I would not put *all* of my money into it, or into any other single commodity. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 15:12:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA30040; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:10:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:10:35 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:21:58 -0500 Message-ID: <20000225232158468.AAA188 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"lX2u-2.0.IL7.glmju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark writes: >Many years of work and many millions of $ were spent investigating the >Aluminum Air Fuel Cell for possible electric cars applications during the >1970s and 80s at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. The record are >almost all in the public domain. > >The small part that was proprietary was sold to Alcan which for awhile was >involved with Unique Mobility in Denver. > >I think cost knocked it out of the game. LLNL estimated gasoline would have >to rise to $3.50/per gallon (before inflation adjustment which would make >the price even higher) to be practical in the market. > >A small private firm in the U.S. has continued parallel development. I've >forgotten their name but a patent search would bring it up. That's true, and I've seen some smaller outfits that have been researching Al air cells, but Rusek's cell runs on H2O2 and KOH, making it possibly a better investigative direction. The Ph of H2O2, obviously would be different than air, for starters. It can be taken into space, I think easier than LO2. The cell itself is incredibly simple to construct and understand, too. Prototypes for research could be done with baby food or peanut butter jars, and the anode material could be something as common as beercans, like Fred has suggested. The dummy electrode could be a nail or almost anything metallic, really. In other words, this is something safe, cheap and easy enough for a Jr. High school student to experiment with, and see real results. What I am wondering is, if this plasma device that JL Naudin is working on could could light up UV lamps instead of regular flourescent lamps, even ones not directly in the circuit. If, like the Roth paper states, that the flow of air is accelerated over the plasma panel at a rate of ~400m/s, then quite a lot of charged particles could be directed at group of UV lamps. If the lamps were arranged properly in a dry tube of quartz glass with the ionized air runnning over them through the center, an outer pipe with flowing water should produce H2O2. Or possibly the charged air flowing over the panel could be pumped directly into the water with the same chemical change result. It might be a cheap way of making H2O2 on the spot out of water and charged air. I think that Naudin or someone should look into these possibilities as a way of producing electricity continuously. It would be totally explainable, and possibly OU. The latter experiments involving HV and Nitrous Oxides shouldn't be done by unsupervised kids, I don't think, but that is just my opinion, so lower the flameguns. My geekier friends and I were successfully making gunpowder and Nitro at 14 years of age, but we were more lucky than brainy. I wouldn't fool around with that stuff again today, even with the additional knowledge and experience that I have. There are definitely some very exciting possibilities for these plasma devices, though. I'm giving them my full attention. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 15:19:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32376; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:17:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:17:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000225171741.013169c0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:17:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: new experiments In-Reply-To: <003b01bf7fd4$ba32d0f0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000224231442.00732e50 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HSGRy.0.ov7.Ismju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:10 PM 2/25/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >Would it be possible for you to set up either of these experiments in >a calorimeter? That would make a very interesting experiment. Certainly the "hot cell" one is possible. Making the cell and getting the Ti screen coated with metal carbonate right would be the challenge. I'm looking at the "synthesis and characterization" now. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 16:10:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA12304; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:00:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:00:25 -0800 Message-ID: <38B7181C.C6D226A7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:02:39 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample References: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m1dIx.0.A03.OUnju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >Similar microcraters are seen after electrolysis. These range from a few > >microns > >to tens of microns in size and show high concentrations of certain elements on > >their flanks. Although evidence of nuclear activity is apparent at these > >locations, people have seen apparent nuclear ash at other, less affected > >locations. > > ***{In your specific case, have you found that the surfaces of the active > cathodes show noticeably more pitting, given equal use, than do the > inactive ones? --MJ}*** > > This is a difficult question to answer because so few successful cathodes have > been examined in a way which would allow such a comparison. I agree with you, > such a study would be useful. In my case, I only recently obtained a microscope > which is able to see these craters. As active samples show up, I will keep > track of the crater size and density. The active Pt sample I have been > describing does show many small pits in the surface but I have no idea how or > why these are produced. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 16:14:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13240; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:04:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:04:23 -0800 Message-ID: <011d01bf7fbb$9c22c700$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000225165601921.AAA115 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:10:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"NwNF23.0.jE3.6Ynju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 8:56 AM Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Thanks for the info, Knuke. OTOH, Using H2O2 as an energy source for a battery (~ 25 Kcal/mole) seems to be a very expensive energy source. Regards, Frederick > Fred writes: > >In the late 1960s when the impressive heat transport capability of heat > pipes was recognized, a > >simple > >heat pipe could be made by partially filling an aluminum tube with > distilled water and applying > >heat to > >purge the non-condensible gas from the then sealing it off. > > > >This made a heat pipe that would operate from 32 F to over 700 f. > > > >However, even around 200 F, the reaction, 3 H2O + Al ---> Al(OH)3 + 3 H > occurred, > >creating a non-condensible zone at the condenser end of the heat pipe, > rendering it inoperable. > > > >Is it possible that some of this non-condensible (H2?) gas was Hydrinos or > Hydrino Hydride? > > > >Regards, Frederick > > I wouldn't know Fred, but you might be interested in what Professor Rusek > has quite successfully been doing at Purdue. I was thinking about writing > to him, and suggesting a similar happening to what you have suggested, but > you would be more qualified to do that. What he is working on is a H2O2 > fuel cell that has an Al anode and a dummy electrode. The two electrolytes > that he has worked with so far are NaOH and..... KOH. The KOH seems to work > better, and you may know why. What he is saying is that the H2O2 acts as a > "catholyte" when added to the electrolyte, meaning that is not only is a > conductor, but also a supplier of electrons. The H2O2 gives up an O atom at > the anode, and an electron is released. > > The reaction pattern is quite interesting in that it takes two hours to get > started, during which time no electricity is produced, but then for about > 1/2 an hour, a large surge of electricity is produced that tapers off to a > steady flow for many hours until the the H2O2 supply is exhausted. To date, > no calorimetry has been performed on the cell as far as the report that I > have goes, but the cell has been developed to the point of delivering over > 2/3 of the theoretical limit of the amount of electricity that it should > with just a minimum amount of investigation. Rusek has found that by not > using pure Al, he doesn't get any aluminum oxide sludge. The energy density > / size ratio make the cell a very promising primary battery type source of > power as compared to the currently used batteries. > > Dr. Rusek is asking for suggestions for getting the reaction starting time > down, some engineering suggestions for materials, and any other help. i > don't have a website address but his e-mail is: > > rusek ecn.purdue.edu > > and his whole report is 10 megs in .pdf format. Good reading. > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 16:17:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15235; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:09:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:09:46 -0800 Message-ID: <008401bf7fee$d98ffee0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000224231442.00732e50 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000225171741.013169c0@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: new experiments Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:17:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"WUf_51.0.xj3.9dnju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > Certainly the "hot cell" one is possible. Making the cell and getting the > Ti screen coated with metal carbonate right would be the challenge. - At these wall temperatures it is not necessary to coat the screen. The metal vapor pressure is sufficient to provide distribution of the potassium. A technique similar to the one Vince uses, with relatively pure K metal would eliminate the carbon contamination questions. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 16:41:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25879; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:40:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:40:02 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000225121102.01321474 earthtech.org> References: <20000224040258828.AAA63 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:39:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety Resent-Message-ID: <"f05Vh1.0.DK6.Y3oju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: here's an 'old timer' tip that I found in an article on antenna construction: when making bare finger contact with a circuit *that you believe to be safe* always use the backs of your fingers first. that way, if there is a voltage present, the muscle contraction will cause your fingers to move away. if you use your finger tips, the contraction may cause you to involuntarily grab the live conductor... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 17:01:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31797; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:56:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:56:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:55:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000224040258828.AAA63 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.1.32.20000225121102.01321474@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA31719 Resent-Message-ID: <"sItXo3.0.jm7.vIoju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:39:38 -0500, ralph muha wrote: >here's an 'old timer' tip that I found in an article on antenna construction: >when making bare finger contact with a circuit *that you believe to be safe* >always use the backs of your fingers first. that way, if there is a voltage >present, the muscle contraction will cause your fingers to move away. >if you use your finger tips, the contraction may cause you to involuntarily >grab the live conductor... > I have also used a glancing blow, based on the notion that the momentum of my hand would carry it beyond harm, even if the muscles did contract. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 17:04:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31115; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:54:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:54:08 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new experiments Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:53:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7p8ebsogk06rvcbptg1f6s3rsfos8ufaip 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000224231442.00732e50 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000225171741.013169c0@earthtech.org> <008401bf7fee$d98ffee0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> In-Reply-To: <008401bf7fee$d98ffee0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA31023 Resent-Message-ID: <"urbmA.0.5c7.lGoju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:17:21 -0500, George Holz wrote: >Scott wrote: >> Certainly the "hot cell" one is possible. Making the cell and getting the >> Ti screen coated with metal carbonate right would be the challenge. >- >At these wall temperatures it is not necessary to coat the screen. The >metal vapor pressure is sufficient to provide distribution of the >potassium. A technique similar to the one Vince uses, with >relatively pure K metal would eliminate the carbon contamination >questions. [snip] Mills has suggested in the past that the CO3-- anion seemed to just about the right size, keeping the K+ ions the right distance apart to facilitate Hydrino formation. Getting rid of it altogether may not therefore necessarily improve things. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 17:32:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11761; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:31:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:31:22 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:42:46 -0500 Message-ID: <20000226014246890.AAA281 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"-t3DP.0.ht2.fpoju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >Well, not on earth, anyway. It might be okay off-planet somewhere. Bring an >asteroid near the sun, vaporize it or make a plasma, separate out the Au >atoms . . . But why would anyone want megatons of the stuff anyway? I mean, >I could use a few kg in my computer and my teeth, but I wouldn't want to >build a house out of gold, or pave my driveway with it, even if it was >cheaper than bricks. It's kinda slippery for pavement. Totally unnecessary to go to all that trouble. With a free energy source, one can make designer elements from scratch. Gold will be kept around for nostalgia purposes, but other than that it will have the same value as any other element. There was a brief time in history BTW, when aluminum was more valuable than gold because the process of extraction was so difficult. Kings had crowns made out of it. Later, the processes of extraction and purification became more advanced, and today it is almost cheaper than good dirt. You have to go out of your way down here to find a recycling drop off point. Al cans are still just considered landfill garbage by most people down here. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 17:43:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14389; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:42:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:42:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000225204001.007aea10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:40:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample In-Reply-To: <38B7181C.C6D226A7 ix.netcom.com> References: <200002231818.NAA31471 mail.lynxus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uTBD12.0.iW3.dzoju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > In my case, I only recently obtained a microscope > which is able to see these craters. As active samples show up, I will keep > track of the crater size and density. The active Pt sample I have been > describing does show many small pits in the surface but I have no idea how or > why these are produced. Keep track of them how? With photographs? If your microscope allows electronic photos, maybe you can send me one and I can post it to the web page. I have seen pictures from John Dash and others of pits. I think these are different from the evacuated holes that you see in Ohmori's gold cathodes. Those are more like round holes below the surface. I'll post a picture of one on my web page, from the book. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 18:33:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29250; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:29:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:29:43 -0800 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:34:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Patent (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"O6mtP2.0.y87.Mgpju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, I am looking to find a patent reference site that is maybe called espace I know about IBM and USPTO and am trying to make a isting of all the other ones people know of. Thanks, John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 18:51:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA01310; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:49:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:49:43 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Hydrinos or Hydrogen? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:01:06 -0500 Message-ID: <20000226030106078.AAA116 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"9qLbX.0.OK.6zpju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >Thanks for the info, Knuke. > >OTOH, Using H2O2 as an energy source for a battery (~ 25 Kcal/mole) seems to be >a very expensive energy source. > >Regards, Frederick That's true, but the H2O2 is not the only fuel source. The anode material is for the most part Al, some Mg, and a tiny amount of Hg, and it also is consumed. The energy density per pound is 20 times higher than a Pb acid battery, and once the reaction is started, it continues, for all practical purposes, indefinitely as long as the H2O2 is added, so there is no charge time. Considering the losses in transmission and charging a battery, and the milage gain due to the weight difference, a properly designed fuel cell might be cheaper. It would definitely be cheaper if a better way to produce H2O2 were available. What kind of reactions do you think are possible from the external ionized air flowing over the GDP panel combining with water? Do you think any significant amount of H2O2 is production is possible? What about the UV lamp being lit by the charged air and exposing water to UV to produce H2O2 idea? Do you think that would work? There has got to be a way to take advantage of all those charged particles in that amount of airflow, and convert it to a usable form of electricity. I just know there is a way. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 19:47:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19179; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:45:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:45:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:51:04 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"5ncu-.0.bh4.pnqju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Use a meter.... Or a potato ... or apple NOT YOUR BLING BLANG HANDS!!!! On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:39:38 -0500, ralph muha wrote: > > >here's an 'old timer' tip that I found in an article on antenna construction: > >when making bare finger contact with a circuit *that you believe to be safe* > >always use the backs of your fingers first. that way, if there is a voltage > >present, the muscle contraction will cause your fingers to move away. > >if you use your finger tips, the contraction may cause you to involuntarily > >grab the live conductor... > > > I have also used a glancing blow, based on the notion that the momentum of > my hand would carry it beyond harm, even if the muscles did contract. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 19:49:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20493; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:48:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:48:12 -0800 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:53:21 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Deuterium associations inside CF sample In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000225204001.007aea10 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XwOaZ.0.505.ypqju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WHICH WHAT CRATERS...? On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > In my case, I only recently obtained a microscope > > which is able to see these craters. As active samples show up, I will keep > > track of the crater size and density. The active Pt sample I have been > > describing does show many small pits in the surface but I have no idea > how or > > why these are produced. > > Keep track of them how? With photographs? If your microscope allows > electronic photos, maybe you can send me one and I can post it to the web > page. > > I have seen pictures from John Dash and others of pits. I think these are > different from the evacuated holes that you see in Ohmori's gold cathodes. > Those are more like round holes below the surface. I'll post a picture of > one on my web page, from the book. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 20:47:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA01780; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:15 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:45:37 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"FnaLl2.0.kR.Mgrju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:24:44 -0500, George Holz wrote, re Scott Little's attempts to replicate Mills: <> I emphatically agree with respect to the insufficient cathode cleaning and the insufficient vapor pressure, and would add more points. Here's what I wrote about Scott's attempts in a post around February 15, 1999. <> After reading Mitchell Swartz's 1997 FUSION TECHNOLOGY paper (Vol. 31, pp. 63-74), I realized that Mitchell did succeed in producing excess heat with a closed Ni/H2O/K2CO3 cell. Congratulations, Mitchell. George seems to think that I was wrong about point 4) above. George, what did you figure the current density in Scott's Ni/H2O/K2CO3 cell to be? I didn't come up with a figure. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 20:47:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA01946; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:29 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <61.1bb0b8e.25e8b480 aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:45:52 EST Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"1wIjk2.0.KU.bgrju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Pierre, You might also want to take a look at J. Dufour et al., "Interaction of palladium/hydrogen and palladium/deuterium to measure the excess energy per atom for each isotope," FUSION TECHNOLOGY 31, 2 (March 1997), pp. 198-209. It's an experimental paper that seems to have been inspired by Vigier (see ref. 6 in the paper). Here's how Dieter Britz's BIBLIOGRAPHY OF COLD NUCLEAR FUSION summarized the paper: <> If you do write something about Mills & Vigier, would you please post a translation of those paragraphs here? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 20:47:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA01871; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:24 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:45:47 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"EZJmf1.0.9T.Wgrju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated Thursday, 24 Feb 2000 07:10:17 -0500, Michael Huffman wrote: <> So far, he hasn't gone public. He's been talking about an IPO for three years, but hasn't taken that big step yet. <> Maybe that's one reason why they haven't gone public yet. <> When Mills wanted to raise more money in 1999, he didn't have to recruit new investors. His existing investors were happy to buy more shares. They did the very opposite of bailing out. Mills has billion-dollar ideas that I think are worth a billion-dollar shot. Personally, I think that BLP has been too conservative financially speaking. I hope that the market is still hot when he finally does go public. <> It sounds as if you've seen so much fool's gold that it's impaired your ability to identify the real thing on the rare occasions when it comes along. <> The rest of your post didn't sound like it, but I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt nevertheless. I can sympathize with the difficulty of seeing Mills clearly amid the fog of confusion with which his critics surround him. He's long realized that it'll take truly dramatic results to burn away the fog. I think that's one of the principal reasons why he hasn't made public demonstrations like Notoya's, demonstrations that I consider strong, but that he apparently thinks aren't powerful enough yet. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 20:48:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA01840; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:20 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:45:42 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"7a2mm3.0.bS.Rgrju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/24/2000 4:08:43 PM, JedRothwell wrote: << The December 1992 Thermacore data was plenty high enough to commercialize. If they had made a hundred gadgets like that and placed them in major corporate labs, by now we would have hundreds of millions of those heaters in every corner of the world. The gadget may not have been "practical" to sell in K-Mart to Mr. John Q. Public, but it was as practical, as robust and attractive to corporate customers as the AT&T transistor of 1952 or the paper-tape BASIC interpreter offered by Bill Gates in 1975.>> No, it wasn't. It couldn't be made durable enough at high power. Siemens Westinghouse, for example, was aware of Mills' electrolytic work for years. Mills cooperated with them and was eager to form an alliance with them; but they decided that the electrolytic cells couldn't be commercialized, judging by the Baard article. Mills agreed long ago and moved on. On Baard's account, Siemens Westinghouse seems to be waiting for Mills to produce the kin d of prototype that's a no-brainer to commercialize. When he does, he won't need Siemens Westinghouse anymore. <> How true. Mills moved on from first-generation devices long ago. I'd say he's on his fourth or fifth generation by now, and he may need one or two more before he has a marketable product. <> They agree. Hence the books, the articles, the website, the presentations, the contacts with dozens of independent labs. << >Mills with a >tall, pipe-like design using much less nickel wire cloth for the cathode; >but when Mills tried to increase the power, he found that durability went down >dramatically. That is the kind of problem he should never expect to fix. It is absurd for him to worry about it.>> Boy, Jed, sometimes I wonder how you made enough money to retire on. It wasn't with this kind of thinking. Electrolytic cells tear the hell out of materials at high power. Mills and Thermacore and other experts who were impressed with their work all agreed that this wasn't the right road to commercialization. <> Mills hoped that's how things would work out. So did we all. They didn't work out that way. Siemens Westinghouse seems to have been typical of the big industrial corporations. And why didn't NERL do a Mills-type replication? Did NERL ever do anything with the cell Bush sent? You said that Mills wouldn't cooperate with NERL. So what? Robert Bush didn't need Mills to hold his hand every step of the way, neither did Mitchell Swartz, neither did Reiko Notoya, neither did Vince Cockeram, and neither would Ed Wall. You and Gene and Ed had your reasons for not pursuing this, and other outfits had their reasons, too, even when Mills did cooperate with them, as in the case of Siemens Westinghouse. <> I think that the combination of theory and practice that Mills has achieved is highly unusual. As for CETI, five years ago they did look like the only real competition for HydroCatalysis Power (BLP's former name), but that horserace is already over. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 21:42:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15696; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:41:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:41:29 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf8080$b30ce840$6e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Patent (fwd) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:41:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2ppnv.0.Ar3.8Usju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, The Espace patent server is at: http://ep.espacenet.com/ The only thing the IBM server is good for is referenced patents. Espace is better in every other respect. The USPTO is pretty useless. There are other national sites which of varying degrees of usefulness. In Espace, to access full text of all US, British, French, or German patents back to 1920-- along with a lot more-- click on the link called "worldwide, 30 million documents". Then type in the available information on the patent you are looking for in the search form. This takes you to a link, and this link takes you to a description page. There is a link on this page that takes you to a page by page pdf file of the actual patent. As it happens, I was searching the European patent class for low energy nuclear reactions last night. If you type in G21B1/00 on the IPC line on the search form, lo and behold, all the cold fusion patents pop up-- and a lot more even stranger stuff. Pretty handy. There are patent classes for purported overunity devices too :-) The IPC patent class description which allow you to search by type is at: http://classifications.wipo.int/fulltext/ipc/ipc6en/indexfrm.htm Fred > > I am looking to find a patent reference site that is maybe called > > espace > > I know about IBM and USPTO and am trying to make a isting of all >the other ones people know of. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 23:39:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01828; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:39:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:39:09 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF7FE9.BECCBEE0 istf-1-25.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: HV Circuit Safety Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:40:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF7FE9.BECCBEE0" Resent-Message-ID: <"d7DDZ3.0.QS.SCuju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF7FE9.BECCBEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got to agree with John on this one. I used to do a bit of work with hv = circuits, caps, etc... In the interest of properly educating our younger readers (do as I say, = not as I did ;-), and with all due respect, Ralph and Robin: if you have = enough doubt to use the back of your finger or give it a "glancing blow" = then you don't really "believe it to be safe" and might be better off = using a different test instrument. Meters and such for the tame, neon = bulbs for the visually stimulated, screwdriver-popping for us = neanderthals... (what's that about potatoes and apples, John?) Dan Quickert -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer=20 Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:51 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety Use a meter.... 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I used to do a bit of work with hv circuits, caps, etc... >In the interest of properly educating our younger readers (do as I say, not as I did ;-), and with all due respect, Ralph and Robin: if you have enough doubt to use the back of your finger or give it a "glancing blow" then you don't really "believe it to be safe" and might be better off using a different test instrument. Meters and such for the tame, neon bulbs for the visually stimulated, screwdriver-popping for us neanderthals... (what's that about potatoes and apples, John?) > >Dan Quickert I also have to agree. I got another response from someone telling me about the famous "always keep one hand in your pocket" trick. I know he wasn't serious. You can't do much work with one hand in your pocket, and if you are soaked in seawater, you can have both hands in your pocket, and it won't help you. Luke Skywelder and I were welding on a barge once, and we had this guy Dolan as a firewatcher. It was like 38 degrees, rainy, typical miserable Seattle winter day, and Luke had thrown up a tarp over the place that we were welding. We were both laying down, and I heard some banging so I stopped, popped off my hood and there was Luke beating on his arm which was on fire. He looked pretty disgusted. It was nothing major, he had six layers of clothes on, but I looked around for Dolan, who was supposed to be watching out for that sort of thing, and he was off in a corner looking out at the water, totally oblivious. Luke looked at me yelled "Hey Dolan! I'm not getting any arc! Go check my ground clip, wouldja!" This kid kind of wakes up, and ambles over to the clip, and starts to wiggle it. Luke waited until the kid had a good grip on the thing, fired up an arc, which of course sends this kid about three feet into the air screaming, and I almost rolled off the barge laughing. Luke says "you know Knuke, I did the exact same thing to him just two days ago, you would think he'd figure it out." He shook his head, and we went back to work. Another guy I worked with came off a crabber with a pile of cash, went to Reno for a week, came back broke and married to some woman that he met in a casino. He starts back to work, and goes to fire an arc, but his welding glove was soaked in seawater. The arc goes right through his glove where the wedding ring was. He's swearing up a storm, and he jerks the glove off only to find that the finger and ring just stayed in the glove. The hand came out perfectly cauterized and smoking, no blood or anything, just blackened. So he jams his hand in the cold water to numb it, then he jumps in his car and drives off before any of us could even think. We all reckoned that he went to the doctor, right? He comes back the next day, we ask him what the doctor said. He just goes, "Doctor?! I didn't go to the doctor. I went straight to my lawyer, and filed for DIVORCE!!" Thanks for all the safety suggestions so far, if you've got more, let me have'em. I'm still collecting them. The stories are always fun too, as long as they not too grizzly. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 07:12:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01078; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:11:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:11:14 -0800 From: jrneer isp800.com Message-Id: <200002261511.KAA07387 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:11:14 CST Reply-to: jrneer isp800.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: J Street Mailer (build 98.6.3) Subject: BlackLight Power Patent Resent-Message-ID: <"42HOV.0.lG.Iq-ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The difficult 95% of CF involves things like interactions at thin films, H2 >(or D2) formation at thes surface, absorbtion, catalysis, and materials >problems so complex I would not know how to describe them. These are >IMMENSELY subjects, with a huge literature. They are critical to a broad >range of industries from semiconductors to oil refining and pollution >control. Solving a problem similar to CF, such as designing an effective Pd >automotive catalytic converter, requires hundreds of millions of dollars >and teams of experts. CF is every bit as complicated, yet it is being done >on a shoestring by a few scattered individuals. >Jed Rothwell One of the events you get (intermittent but somewhat a function of current density) with thin films is a local breakdown, which emits light, capable of disassociating D2. Depending on the volume available at impurities, thin film like material can also exist there. In any event, breakdown light emissions are far more likely there than elsewhere. Does someone know of a P&F type CF experiment which artificially stimulated the disassociation of D2? Or other? John N From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 07:12:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01155; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:11:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:11:24 -0800 Message-Id: <200002261511.KAA07422 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:11:22 CST From: John N Reply-to: John N To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: J Street Mailer (build 98.6.3) Subject: Deuterium associations inside CF sample Resent-Message-ID: <"2QVg82.0.vH.Sq-ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >John, >I know of no posted discussion of this question, but some information is in print. >Unfortunately, very little experimental understanding of the nuclear-active-state >(NAS) is available, most being only theory. This problem exists because the > NAS occurs only in small, isolated regions and because no one has the > money or tools to examine these regions in detail, especially before they are >made visible by their destruction. Clearly, the NA regions are very difficult to >construct and are influenced by various impurities. Depending on who is >doing the talking, many models have been proposed but little agreement >exists. This is the major reason the effect has been so difficult to reproduce. >Ed Storms Thanks for the incredibly succinct answer. If I may have a few more thoughts of your time ... ? > This problem exists because the NAS occurs only in small, isolated regions I'm interested in knowledge of 'species present' in the NAS as the only potentially simple means of improving the P&F type system I can imagine. I'm thinking in terms of one event at one NA site, such as, D + D -- > 4He + energy, or D + D -- > D + D + energy Each of these is only capable of occurring in the NA zone. When you read that in the context of PdCF, is the mental D a bare nucleus as in plasma (p-n), or an atomic deuterium ((p-n)-e)? May I ask what you personally regard as the source of the nuclear active state? Not the ultimate or penultimate cause, merely what species are present at activation, or 'beginning a CF event'? Thanks for your insight, John Background motivation: > Clearly, the NA regions are very difficult to construct and are influenced by various impurities. These are the only two ideas in a Pd sample which fit the 'sufficiently rare' criteria which I can imagine. Apropos dislocations and impurities ... A Pd - D(atomic) association (as contrasted to D2 associations, or Pd - D2 associations) such as Pd (atom/ion) - D (nucleus) - e < -- approach path for D(atomic) .... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 07:12:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01114; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:11:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:11:20 -0800 Message-Id: <200002261511.KAA07407 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:11:18 CST From: John N Reply-to: John N To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: J Street Mailer (build 98.6.3) Subject: Deuterium associations inside CF sample Resent-Message-ID: <"9T3yM2.0.HH.Nq-ju" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >John: > There are several theories which agree with conventional >physics; for the surmounting of coulomb barrier, and for the >loading, and for the breakdown of the material. Less well >understood are the theories regarding the transfer of energy >from the excited nucleus to the lattice, in which the >deuterons are located. > The postings are minimal, but the literature is rich >in this matter, with disagreement also regarding the site, >and its state, where the desired reactions occur. > Mitchell Swartz Thanks Dr. Swartz. That's a very depressing 'No'. :-) There's no simple logic path toward improvement. Do you recall which of these species received the best explanation as to being present in the Nuclear Activation zone, inside a CF sample? D = (p-n), nuclear, ionic D = (p-n) - e, atomic D2 = 2{(p-n) - e} di atomic, molecular (or ionic), or other. D(atomic) on the 'surface of Pd' seems to relate to gamma - - > e+ + e- (in the presence of a nucleus) through structural mechanisms which contain p-e + p(energetic) - - > p - e - - p (or p - - p - e) where p - e - - p - - > p - e+ - p or p - - p - e - - > p - p + e+, i.e., the positron forms when the abnormal ion forms. p - - p is directly dependant on E_gamma = ~ 1 MeV although particle structure is ultimately undefined. Thanks, John N From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 12:09:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11788; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:08:33 -0800 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 15:13:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The other half.... or more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Y1SFJ2.0.6u2.1B3ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Below is a part of an annoucement. Please see, after cuts, flag, question [s] comment; On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Hi Jed, > >More local nuclear irresponsibility. > >http://ens.lycos.com/ens/feb2000/2000L-02-11-07.html > >Below is an amazing announcement from George Wiseman's Browns Gas Group. CUTS ________________ FLAG ________________ > > > >> BROWN'S GAS NEWS (top) > >> > >> Atomic Energy Canada has successfully tested Brown's Gas to neutralize > >> radioactive waste; using full scientific protocol. Further tests are > >> being done soon. The USA DOE tested Brown's Gas and found the same > >> result, but wouldn't validate their findings for public domain. > >> Q: Specifically WHAT test [s] were-are performed which indicate a "neutralization" of radioactivity? > >> Brown's Gas technology continues to be developed to industry > >> standards. Q: Industry standards of what? What standards? The electrolyzers are being modified to allow Brown's Gas > >> to be a direct replacement gas for current industry equipment. Q: What gas [es]? Q: What equipment? People > >> who are using our machines (bought from us or built themselves) are > >> telling us the changes they'd like to see. This input will be > >> reflected in the next generation of machines. > >> Q: What organization [s]? > >> We are cooperating with organizations that are testing the Brown's Gas > >> characteristics and it's usefulness in their applications. Is there third party validation? Second party validation? What tests indicate the statemnts above? Thank you J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 13:13:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30538; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:12:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:12:00 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <9d.25c9e52.25e99b78 aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:11:20 EST Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"SCvFg3.0._S7.W64ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/24/2000 11:52:35 PM, Fred Sparber wrote: << > > Vigier JP; Phys, Lett A 221 (1996) 138. > "On cathodically polarized Pd/D systems" > Vigier points out that the proposal of Szpak et al in the same journal A210 > (1996) 382 is significant for "cold fusion" and in fact in line with his > (Vigier's) own previous theories, as well as others. Essentially, "tight" > Bohr orbits are proposed, with attendant implications. 031996|091996 By that "Logic" the 100+ Megabar Hydrogen Core of Jupiter should be a thermonuclear bomb. >> By Vigier's very tight orbits, yes. Mills' first few hydrinos aren't that small. Judging by previous comments, you'd have to go down about ten steps in the hydrino ladder to get fusion by quantum tunneling. A while back, someone asked about the unexplained heat that was emanating from Jupiter. I don't know about that, but if there is unexplained heat, then Mills' hydrinos would be do the job without a nuclear reaction. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 13:21:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03404; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:17:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:17:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226161514.0079c990 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:15:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Cj6x-.0.1r.eB4ku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: >It couldn't be made durable enough at high power. Durability or practicality is never an issue with first generation devices. AT&T's first transistors were good for nothing, but they persuaded people the effect is real, and people went on to make practical devices. Siemens >Westinghouse, for example, was aware of Mills' electrolytic work for years. >Mills cooperated with them and was eager to form an alliance with them; but >they decided that the electrolytic cells couldn't be commercialized . . . There must be at least 10,000 other qualified industrial corporations he could have approached. Why did he stop with Westinghouse? I am sure many leading corporations in 1952 did not express interest in transistors. In 1960, AT&T looked at integrated circuits (invented by TI) and decided they were not interested. It was five years before they began making them. >Mills agreed long ago and moved on. A very foolish thing to do. He has squandered years and hundreds of millions of potential profit, for no reason. >That is the kind of problem he should never expect to fix. It is absurd for >him to worry about it.>> > >Boy, Jed, sometimes I wonder how you made enough money to retire on. Not by trying to do things myself that a million other people can do better than me. If Mills would concentrate on his own strong points, leaving materials problems to other people, he would be far ahead of the game. >It >wasn't with this kind of thinking. Electrolytic cells tear the hell out of >materials at high power. Electrochemical processes are essential to many industries, and electric power, so the problems could have been overcome. In any case, the plan would be to plow profits back into development, and change the product rapidly and radically. ><data. Every industrial corporation on earth would have been camped out at >his front door.>> > >Mills hoped that's how things would work out. So did we all. No, he did not. He told me and several others many times over the years that he has no interest in marketing, or attracting customers, and no desire to work with industrial corporations. He told me and others recently that he could not think of a reason to do a demonstration or set up a cell which any interested investor or corporation could examine. He did not mention Westinghouse. Perhaps his experience with them soured him toward the idea. I suppose some men go out on one date, once in their lives, have a bad time and decide never to marry. >Siemens Westinghouse seems to have been typical of the >big industrial corporations. I doubt it is typical, but for the sake of argument suppose it is. That means he must look for an atypical corporation. There are thousands, and they are not difficult to find. >And why didn't NERL do a Mills-type replication? Because everyone we know who has tried, has failed. If Mills himself can do it, he should. He cannot count on others to replicate. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 13:35:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04693; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:31:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:31:18 -0800 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:36:27 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BeginningHV Circuit Safety (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000225124619.0079cbf0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DId0-2.0.C91.bO4ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If your spotter is blotto, take the spotter out of your lab, then close up till you can get one. a] Be dead certain or you may be certainly dead, a hot wire looks just like a cold wire a] you don't need a conductor... HV will "Reach Out and Touch Someone"... like you or someone you care about ... a] No second chance On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Vince, I think, wrote: > > >USE A SPOTTER > > > > 3a] A "Spotter" is someone who is with you when you > >do this work who is alert, not drinking beer and so on, who will cut power > >and safe you if things go wrong. > > And what do you do if your spotter's blotto? > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 14:02:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14631; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:01:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:01:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226165620.007deba0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:56:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000226161514.0079c990 pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"76qxa3.0.Xa3.oq4ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:15 PM 2/26/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>And why didn't NERL do a Mills-type replication? > >Because everyone we know who has tried, has failed. Maybe you should get out more. Tom is correct. If you mean the Ni-H2O-Pt systems, it was confirmed, researched, and developed in many places. Mitchell Swartz >If Mills himself can do >it, he should. He cannot count on others to replicate. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 14:55:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29647; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:53:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:53:12 -0800 Message-ID: <023501bf80b4$7728e2a0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <9d.25c9e52.25e99b78 aol.com> Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 15:51:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ASt49.0.5F7.Nb5ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Mills & Vigier Tom Stolper wrote: > > In a message dated 02/24/2000 11:52:35 PM, Fred Sparber wrote: > > << > > > > Vigier JP; Phys, Lett A 221 (1996) 138. > > > "On cathodically polarized Pd/D systems" > > > Vigier points out that the proposal of Szpak et al in the same journal A210 > > > (1996) 382 is significant for "cold fusion" and in fact in line with his > > > (Vigier's) own previous theories, as well as others. Essentially, "tight" > > > Bohr orbits are proposed, with attendant implications. 031996|091996 > > > By that "Logic" the 100+ Megabar Hydrogen Core of Jupiter should be > > a thermonuclear bomb. >> > > By Vigier's very tight orbits, yes. Mills' first few hydrinos aren't that > small. Judging by previous comments, you'd have to go down about ten steps > in the hydrino ladder to get fusion by quantum tunneling. A while back, > someone asked about the unexplained heat that was emanating from Jupiter. I > don't know about that, but if there is unexplained heat, then Mills' hydrinos > would be do the job without a nuclear reaction. I totally agree that the heat from Jupiter (Twice what it receives from Solar insolation) can be coming from hydrino-like activity in it's atmosphere. But, I'm sticking to Positrino-Negatrino (~ 0.2 ev each) pair production and fractional orbits along with Proton + Negatrino, (P*) + P ----> D + (e+) + Neutrino + Negatrino + ~1.44 Mev FUSION REACTIONS of the Negatrino. The 40,000:1 Hydrogen to Deuterium ratio of Jupiter is 1.5 times the intersellar concentration of Deuterium. The 6,700:1 Hydrogen to Deuterium ratio in sea water, along with the anomalous 27: 1 Na/K ratio, also is a head scratcher. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Tom Stolper > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 15:54:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14201; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 15:53:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 15:53:34 -0800 Message-ID: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:51:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"nwKvH2.0.pT3.-T6ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The ~1.0E14 ions per millilter in water at 25 Deg C is supposedly from the "autoionization" reaction: H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) However, it could be Positrinos and Negatrinos attached to H2O: H2O(+) + H2O(-) <----> (+)H2O(-) + H2O If the Sun is making the LL(+/-) pairs in the atmosphere/hydrosphere, then how do you keep the ones that don't recombine/annihilate out of your drinking water, or attached to water vapor or molecules in the atmosphere ( O2-) , or the water or H2 in the CF/OU experiments? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 16:25:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21534; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:23:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:23:59 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:23:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA21509 Resent-Message-ID: <"AAt6f2.0.OG5.Vw6ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:51:37 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >The ~1.0E14 ions per millilter in water at 25 Deg C is supposedly from the >"autoionization" reaction: > >H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) > >However, it could be Positrinos and Negatrinos attached to H2O: > >H2O(+) + H2O(-) <----> (+)H2O(-) + H2O If this is so, then two questions arise: 1) Which process leads to the negatrino assuming a tight orbit in some cases, but not in others? (e.g. why not when attached to a water molecule in this fashion?) 2) I would expect a different absorption and/or emission spectrum for water molecules with one or more LL's attached than for H3O+ and OH-. Have such spectra been detected? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 16:36:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25350; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:34:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:34:55 -0800 Message-ID: <026f01bf80c2$ad2ecf00$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:33:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"XwzAb2.0.0C6.l47ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Robin writes: > On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:51:37 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >The ~1.0E14 ions per millilter in water at 25 Deg C is supposedly from the > >"autoionization" reaction: > > > >H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) > > > >However, it could be Positrinos and Negatrinos attached to H2O: > > > >H2O(+) + H2O(-) <----> (+)H2O(-) + H2O > > If this is so, then two questions arise: > 1) Which process leads to the negatrino assuming a tight orbit in some > cases, but not in others? (e.g. why not when attached to a water molecule in > this fashion?) Potassium ions (K+) and CO3= Catalyzes the lower orbits: (K+) + H2 ---> (H+) + Negatrino ----> P* + KH , perhaps? > 2) I would expect a different absorption and/or emission spectrum for water > molecules with one or more LL's attached than for H3O+ and OH-. Have such > spectra been detected? That ~ 3.0 Micron Infrared absorption is "mushy" enough to mask it unless you look for it. Regards, Frederick > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 16:50:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29484; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:48:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:48:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:43:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? In-Reply-To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lKD4T3.0.YC7.mH7ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:23 AM 2/27/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:51:37 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >[snip] >>The ~1.0E14 ions per millilter in water at 25 Deg C is supposedly from the >>"autoionization" reaction: >> >>H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) >> >>However, it could be Positrinos and Negatrinos attached to H2O: >> >>H2O(+) + H2O(-) <----> (+)H2O(-) + H2O > >If this is so, then two questions arise: >1) Which process leads to the negatrino assuming a tight orbit in some >cases, but not in others? (e.g. why not when attached to a water molecule in >this fashion?) >2) I would expect a different absorption and/or emission spectrum for water >molecules with one or more LL's attached than for H3O+ and OH-. Have such >spectra been detected? >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Good point, Robin. The first eq. is also strictly incorrect because the ionization occurs in a the water-ice lattice, and probably occurs as a result of a dislocation in the stereoconstellation of water, and probably at a considerable distance - which is not obvious by the simple equation. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 17:07:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01329; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:06:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:06:20 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: EEG Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:05:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA01303 Resent-Message-ID: <"KnAVZ.0.hK.BY7ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, If a number of physically separated people are hooked up, each to their own EEG device, are their alpha brain waves in phase at any given point in time? I.e. are they synchronised? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 17:14:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03024; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:13:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:13:18 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:12:42 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o 4ax.com> References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA02998 Resent-Message-ID: <"1J7Le1.0.4l.je7ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:43:36 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip] >>>H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) [snip] > The first eq. is also strictly incorrect because the ionization >occurs in a the water-ice lattice, and probably occurs as a result >of a dislocation in the stereoconstellation of water, and probably >at a considerable distance - which is not obvious by the simple >equation. [snip] If this is true, then how do you explain the fact the the pH of pure water is 7? (Even in the lab, and far from any ice?). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 17:24:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05477; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:21:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:21:35 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:20:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <026f01bf80c2$ad2ecf00$6f441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <026f01bf80c2$ad2ecf00$6f441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA05453 Resent-Message-ID: <"10VLV.0.VL1.Um7ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:33:12 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >Potassium ions (K+) and CO3= Catalyzes the lower orbits: > >(K+) + H2 ---> (H+) + Negatrino ----> P* + KH , perhaps? Then a shallow dish of K2CO3 solution in sun-light should perhaps produce some gamma rays from the reactions ensuing from the P* fusion reactions? (OTOH, one might also expect this from Hydrino formation, so the experiment wouldn't necessarily be conclusive). > >> 2) I would expect a different absorption and/or emission spectrum for water >> molecules with one or more LL's attached than for H3O+ and OH-. Have such >> spectra been detected? > >That ~ 3.0 Micron Infrared absorption is "mushy" enough to mask it unless you look for it. Doesn't this assume that the lines in question will be in the 3.1 micron region? (I don't see why the bond energy between a water molecule and a LL should be the same as the formation energy of a pair of LL's). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 17:27:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06802; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:25:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:25:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226202017.007e1730 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:20:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? In-Reply-To: <0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1EAPx1.0.Cg1.8q7ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:12 PM 2/27/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:43:36 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >[snip] >>>>H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) >[snip] > >> The first eq. is also strictly incorrect because the ionization >>occurs in a the water-ice lattice, and probably occurs as a result >>of a dislocation in the stereoconstellation of water, and probably >>at a considerable distance - which is not obvious by the simple >>equation. >[snip] >If this is true, then how do you explain the fact the the pH of pure water >is 7? >(Even in the lab, and far from any ice?). > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Robin: The pH of 7 tells you the concentration of what appears as H+ You know how that goes. What I stated is true because if you calculated the expected electrostatic field intensity between H+ and OH- , you will see they go right back together. The slippage is therefore discussed in literature going back to the late 60's and early 70's, and it , I think, is perpendicular to the c-axis of the ice 1H structure BTW. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:11:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18959; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:10:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:10:13 -0800 Message-ID: <029301bf80cf$fea9f500$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230@world.std.com> <0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:08:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"aTIwc3.0.5e4.5U8ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Swartz left out the Medicine Man Incantations. :-) FJS > On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:43:36 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > [snip] > >>>H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) > [snip] > > > The first eq. is also strictly incorrect because the ionization > >occurs in a the water-ice lattice, and probably occurs as a result > >of a dislocation in the stereoconstellation of water, and probably > >at a considerable distance - which is not obvious by the simple > >equation. > [snip] > If this is true, then how do you explain the fact the the pH of pure water > is 7? > (Even in the lab, and far from any ice?). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:11:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18920; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:10:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:10:09 -0800 Message-ID: <029201bf80cf$fd27e8e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <026f01bf80c2$ad2ecf00$6f441d26@fjsparber> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:06:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ss-dN.0.Yd4.1U8ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Robin wrote: > On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:33:12 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >Potassium ions (K+) and CO3= Catalyzes the lower orbits: > > > >(K+) + H2 ---> (H+) + Negatrino ----> P* + KH , perhaps? > > Then a shallow dish of K2CO3 solution in sun-light should perhaps produce > some gamma rays from the reactions ensuing from the P* fusion reactions? > (OTOH, one might also expect this from Hydrino formation, so the experiment > wouldn't necessarily be conclusive). If you haven't tried it, don't knock it. :-) But, P* + D ----> He3 + Negatrino + ~ 4.0 Mev SANS GAMMAS or D* + D ---> He4 + Negatrino + ~ 24.0 Mev SANS GAMMAS in a collision path length in frations of a millimeter. Rubbing cat fur with a hard rubber comb or Lucite with Polyethylene might pull off the Negatrinos. Then dip the comb in the F&P cells (the 7.2 nanometer radius of the Negatrino will keep it in the electrolyte, but will push the regular electrons to "ground". The LLs are TOO BIG to get out of the cell. See if this will improve your CF/OU-Fission and pitting reactions. > > > > >> 2) I would expect a different absorption and/or emission spectrum for water > >> molecules with one or more LL's attached than for H3O+ and OH-. Have such > >> spectra been detected? > > > >That ~ 3.0 Micron Infrared absorption is "mushy" enough to mask it unless you look for it. > > Doesn't this assume that the lines in question will be in the 3.1 micron > region? (I don't see why the bond energy between a water molecule and a LL > should be the same as the formation energy of a pair of LL's). Why not? Pair production is the result of field interactions with a photon. Wouldn't the strongest absorption point be the first place to look? I have ran IR absorption of "pure" water and water with Ca++ and OH- ions. As I said the absorption around 3.1 Microns is Mushy. Going by George Wiseman's BG Electrolysis cell stratification phenomenon, it makes sense to have a look. Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:25:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24770; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:24:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:24:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226211943.007dc100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:19:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? In-Reply-To: <029301bf80cf$fea9f500$6f441d26 fjsparber> References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> <0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MPz7M.0.y26.eh8ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:08 PM 2/26/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Robin van Spaandonk >To: >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 5:12 PM >Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? > >Swartz left out the Medicine Man Incantations. :-) > >FJS Heh heh. Sparber knows such incantations are only required for his putative sparbarinos. The material science in this matter is well known, as are the normal array of particles. ;-)X Mitchell Swartz >> On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:43:36 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) >> [snip] >> >> > The first eq. is also strictly incorrect because the ionization >> >occurs in a the water-ice lattice, and probably occurs as a result >> >of a dislocation in the stereoconstellation of water, and probably >> >at a considerable distance - which is not obvious by the simple >> >equation. >> [snip] >> If this is true, then how do you explain the fact the the pH of pure water >> is 7? >> (Even in the lab, and far from any ice?). >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:46:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21666; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:42:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:42:55 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:54:13 -0500 Message-ID: <20000227025413343.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"srL6o3.0.MI5.iy8ku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: > The pH of 7 tells you the concentration of what >appears as H+ > You know how that goes. > > What I stated is true because if you calculated >the expected electrostatic field intensity between H+ and >OH- , you will see they go right back together. >The slippage is therefore discussed in literature going >back to the late 60's and early 70's, and it , I think, >is perpendicular to the c-axis of the ice 1H structure BTW. > > Best wishes. > > Mitchell Swartz Isn't there a triboluminescence phenomena that is associated with this? Has the wavelength of this been determined? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:49:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28522; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:41:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:41:02 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:40:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230@world.std.com> <0cugbss1895e4 2pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000226202017.007e1730@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000226202017.007e1730 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA28487 Resent-Message-ID: <"27nC52.0.Zz6.zw8ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:20:17 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip] > The pH of 7 tells you the concentration of what >appears as H+ > You know how that goes. Well, I thought I did, but AFAIK it doesn't have anything to do with ice in particular, though I don't see why it shouldn't also happen in ice. > > What I stated is true because if you calculated >the expected electrostatic field intensity between H+ and >OH- , you will see they go right back together. Which is exactly what I would expect. OTOH I would also expect the thermal energy of the Boltzmann tail to be continually creating new ion pairs, resulting in a dynamic equilibrium, with pairs continually being created and destroyed. >The slippage is therefore discussed in literature going >back to the late 60's and early 70's, and it , I think, >is perpendicular to the c-axis of the ice 1H structure BTW. [snip] Given that liquid water also has some structure (albeit dynamic), perhaps the same mechanism is still possible, even in the absence of ice? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:56:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32635; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:52:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:52:38 -0800 Message-ID: <02b501bf80d5$ec4e3140$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber><025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber><3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230@world.std.com><0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o@4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.200002262119 43.007dc100 world.std.com> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:51:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"B8q-o.0.kz7.r59ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Swartz To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? > At 07:08 PM 2/26/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Robin van Spaandonk > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 5:12 PM > >Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? > > > >Swartz left out the Medicine Man Incantations. :-) > > > >FJS > > > Heh heh. Sparber knows such incantations are > only required for his putative sparbarinos. I'll buy that, if you deem it so. :-) > > The material science in this matter is well > known, as are the normal array of particles. ;-)X You might have missed the Particle Pair that will explain QM tunnelling, 1/2 ev Deuteron "Stripping", Hydrinos and CF/OU-Fission, etc., whether you like it or not. I can read and comprehend the physics of hydrogen bonding in water just as well as you can :-) Regards, Frederick > > Mitchell Swartz > > > > > >> On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:43:36 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> [snip] > >> >>>H2O <----> (H+) + (OH-) > >> [snip] > >> > >> > The first eq. is also strictly incorrect because the ionization > >> >occurs in a the water-ice lattice, and probably occurs as a result > >> >of a dislocation in the stereoconstellation of water, and probably > >> >at a considerable distance - which is not obvious by the simple > >> >equation. > >> [snip] > >> If this is true, then how do you explain the fact the the pH of pure water > >> is 7? > >> (Even in the lab, and far from any ice?). > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Robin van Spaandonk > >> > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:58:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA01818; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:57:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:57:00 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: EEG Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 22:08:27 -0500 Message-ID: <20000227030827296.AAA229 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"AAvt33.0.KS.x99ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >If a number of physically separated people are hooked up, each to their own >EEG device, are their alpha brain waves in phase at any given point in time? >I.e. are they synchronised? > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Boy, Robin! That is a weird idea! I would think that if they are not, then at least groups of people would be in ranges of phase similarity at the same time, just like there are only 365 birthdays in the year. I also would wonder it the phase could be tunable, like a radio. Or jammable, like same. You might toss this idea over to the FreeNRG Group. I think BillB and the Seattle bunch might be interested in this. Ohmmm... Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:59:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02085; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:58:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:58:11 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:57:33 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0n3hbscqruh2hq3b086ol00fapnbea9o46 4ax.com> References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <026f01bf80c2$ad2ecf00$6f441d26@fjsparber> <029201bf80cf$fd27e8e0$6f441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <029201bf80cf$fd27e8e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA02056 Resent-Message-ID: <"hDx7Y1.0.PW.2B9ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:06:56 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >But, P* + D ----> He3 + Negatrino + ~ 4.0 Mev SANS GAMMAS Sorry, momentary lapse. I forgot that the negatrino loses energy through collision. Given that H is far more prevalent than D, and assuming that H + P* -> etc. is rare because of the beta-decay reaction, then one might assume that a large proportion of any resulting gas would be He3 (P* + D far more likely than D* + D). Since He3 is so expensive, this might be an interesting experiment to try. [snip] >> Doesn't this assume that the lines in question will be in the 3.1 micron >> region? (I don't see why the bond energy between a water molecule and a LL >> should be the same as the formation energy of a pair of LL's). > >Why not? Well one reason is that the "charge" on a water molecule as a consequence of being a dipole, isn't a full electron charge, i.e. isn't equivalent to that of an LL+, hence I wouldn't expect an LL- to be so strongly attracted to the molecule as it would be to an LL+, and hence I would expect the bond energy between a water molecule and an LL- to be less than the formation energy of the LL pair. I.e. I would expect to find a peak at a (considerably?) longer wavelength. >Pair production is the result of field interactions with a photon. Wouldn't the >strongest absorption point be the first place to look? That depends on what you are looking for. > >I have ran IR absorption of "pure" water and water with Ca++ and OH- ions. As I said >the absorption around 3.1 Microns is Mushy. I presume that by "mushy" you mean a broad shallow peak? > >Going by George Wiseman's BG Electrolysis cell stratification phenomenon, it makes sense >to have a look. Agreed. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 19:00:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24105; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:59:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:59:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226215354.007dd6d0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:53:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000226202017.007e1730 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> <0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000226202017.007e1730 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vl5k22.0.Ou5.DC9ku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:40 PM 2/27/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:20:17 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >[snip] >> The pH of 7 tells you the concentration of what >>appears as H+ >> You know how that goes. > >Well, I thought I did, but AFAIK it doesn't have anything to do with ice in >particular, though I don't see why it shouldn't also happen in ice. Water is mainly three forms of ice. Just think about the ratio of the heat of fusion(melting type) to the sum of the heat of fusion + heat of vaporization + 100. Work it out for yourself, Robin. >> What I stated is true because if you calculated >>the expected electrostatic field intensity between H+ and >>OH- , you will see they go right back together. > >Which is exactly what I would expect. OTOH I would also expect the thermal >energy of the Boltzmann tail to be continually creating new ion pairs, >resulting in a dynamic equilibrium, with pairs continually being created and >destroyed. Correct. I only mention mechanism. >>The slippage is therefore discussed in literature going >>back to the late 60's and early 70's, and it , I think, >>is perpendicular to the c-axis of the ice 1H structure BTW. >[snip] >Given that liquid water also has some structure (albeit dynamic), perhaps >the same mechanism is still possible, even in the absence of ice? See above. We are saying the same thing. (I better get that article to Gene ;-)X Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 19:02:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03534; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:01:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:01:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226215535.007e07f0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:55:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? In-Reply-To: <20000227025413343.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"H9qjg2.0.7t.qD9ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:54 PM 2/26/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >Mitch writes: >> The pH of 7 tells you the concentration of what >>appears as H+ >> You know how that goes. >> >> What I stated is true because if you calculated >>the expected electrostatic field intensity between H+ and >>OH- , you will see they go right back together. >>The slippage is therefore discussed in literature going >>back to the late 60's and early 70's, and it , I think, >>is perpendicular to the c-axis of the ice 1H structure BTW. >> >> Best wishes. >> >> Mitchell Swartz > >Isn't there a triboluminescence phenomena that is associated with this? Has >the wavelength of this been determined? > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm Knuke: It is closer to ferroelectricity, but your comment deserves some thinking about. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 19:05:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05489; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:03:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:03:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000226215859.007e2a10 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:58:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? In-Reply-To: <02b501bf80d5$ec4e3140$6f441d26 fjsparber> References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230 world.std.com> <0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000226211943.007dc100 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xf2kJ3.0.fL1.GG9ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:51 PM 2/26/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> The material science in this matter is well >> known, as are the normal array of particles. ;-)X > >You might have missed the Particle Pair that will explain QM tunnelling, >1/2 ev Deuteron "Stripping", Hydrinos and CF/OU-Fission, etc., whether you >like it or not. > >I can read and comprehend the physics of hydrogen bonding in water just as well as you can :-) > >Regards, Frederick Actually, I have never seen a coherent clear and understandable (sorry if it has been posted) explanation of the above using what you claim. Furthermore, what we have been discussing is the generation of L- and D- defects in the water-ice lattice, which appear as pH, and which account for part of the electrical conductivity of the material. They do in fact result (in part) from the hydrogen bonds, but are generally not considered. Glad to know that you are familiar with this literature. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 19:42:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17956; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:40:06 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 22:51:34 -0500 Message-ID: <20000227035134078.AAA288 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"8cbCf.0.NO4.Lo9ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >Knuke: > > It is closer to ferroelectricity, but your comment >deserves some thinking about. > > Mitchell Swartz Here's another one to chew on, if you look at the points that Fred has pointed out as being suggested OOP's due to the Fine Structure Contant, the one below the IR spectrum would be somewhere in the range of 33 degrees K. Superconductivity territory. At least that is what I extrapolated. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 19:43:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17928; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:40:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:40:03 -0800 Message-ID: <02d701bf80dc$8c2d4240$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber><025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber><3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230@world.std.com><0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o@4ax.com><3.0.6.32.2000022621194 3.007dc100 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000226215859.007e2a10@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:38:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"KFC5Q.0.zN4.Jo9ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Swartz To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Furthermore, what we have been discussing is the generation > of L- and D- defects in the water-ice lattice, which appear > as pH, and which account for part of the electrical conductivity > of the material. They do in fact result (in part) from the > hydrogen bonds, but are generally not considered. When you look at the Ion Product (Posted in the CRC Bible) you get a decrease with a rise in temperature at some pressures and an increase with temperature at other pressures. So much for Boltzman's Tail. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Best wishes. > > Mitchell Swartz > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 19:55:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21930; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:53:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:53:25 -0800 Message-ID: <02e301bf80de$6a0571e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber> <026f01bf80c2$ad2ecf00$6f441d26@fjsparber> <029201bf80cf$fd27e8e0$6f441d26@fjsparber> <0n3hbscqruh2hq3b086ol00 fapnbea9o46 4ax.com> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:52:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"MCITL1.0.aM5.r-9ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Robin wrote: > On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:06:56 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >But, P* + D ----> He3 + Negatrino + ~ 4.0 Mev SANS GAMMAS > > Sorry, momentary lapse. I forgot that the negatrino loses energy through > collision. Given that H is far more prevalent than D, and assuming that H + > P* -> etc. is rare because of the beta-decay reaction, then one might assume > that a large proportion of any resulting gas would be He3 (P* + D far more > likely than D* + D). Since He3 is so expensive, this might be an interesting > experiment to try. I think I would use a filter to stay as close to monochromatic (3.1 Micron) IR as possible, the higher energy photons might inhibit the LL Pair production. > [snip] > >> Doesn't this assume that the lines in question will be in the 3.1 micron > >> region? (I don't see why the bond energy between a water molecule and a LL > >> should be the same as the formation energy of a pair of LL's). > > > >Why not? > > Well one reason is that the "charge" on a water molecule as a consequence of > being a dipole, isn't a full electron charge, i.e. isn't equivalent to that > of an LL+, hence I wouldn't expect an LL- to be so strongly attracted to the > molecule as it would be to an LL+, and hence I would expect the bond energy > between a water molecule and an LL- to be less than the formation energy of > the LL pair. I.e. I would expect to find a peak at a (considerably?) longer > wavelength. I dunno, but with a 0.2 ev rest mass and a charge of 1.6E-19 C the affinity for the polar ends of the water molecule could be quite high, and in that case LLs can Shrink according to; R = kq^2/(Eo + binding/shared energy) same as what happens to a K Capture Electron. > > >Pair production is the result of field interactions with a photon. Wouldn't the > >strongest absorption point be the first place to look? > > That depends on what you are looking for. You won't know for sure until you look. :-) > > > > >I have ran IR absorption of "pure" water and water with Ca++ and OH- ions. As I said > >the absorption around 3.1 Microns is Mushy. > > I presume that by "mushy" you mean a broad shallow peak? More broad than shallow. > > > > >Going by George Wiseman's BG Electrolysis cell stratification phenomenon, it makes sense > >to have a look. > > Agreed. > [snip] Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 20:23:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA28074; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:22:23 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:21:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber><025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber><3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230@world.std.com><0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o@4ax.com><3.0.6.32.2000022621194 3.007dc100 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000226215859.007e2a10@world.std.com> <02d701bf80dc$8c2d4240$6f441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <02d701bf80dc$8c2d4240$6f441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA28057 Resent-Message-ID: <"1cDkV1.0.as6.zPAku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:38:44 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >When you look at the Ion Product (Posted in the CRC Bible) you get >a decrease with a rise in temperature at some pressures and an increase >with temperature at other pressures. So much for Boltzman's Tail. :-) [snip] Assuming for a moment that Mitchell is correct, then the logical conclusion might be that higher pressures in first instance tend to destroy structure, so that in turn would make the H+ creation mechanism less likely, and one would expect the pH to go up (i.e. the H+ concentration to go down), at a constant temperature. While at low pressures, structure is maintained longer, and hence H+ formation increases with temp. Is this what is observed? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 20:28:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA29595; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:27:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:27:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EEG Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:26:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4n9hbs0rg01cnpdkqk5uajffit0t945tfi 4ax.com> References: <20000227030827296.AAA229 mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: <20000227030827296.AAA229 mail.lcia.com@lizard> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA29557 Resent-Message-ID: <"3RF7W1.0.HE7.mUAku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 22:08:27 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: [snip] >Boy, Robin! That is a weird idea! I would think that if they are not, then [snip] It isn't really so weird. I was just wondering if the Schumann (sp?) resonance acted as a synchronising influence on populations? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 20:55:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02315; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:52:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:52:30 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: EEG Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:03:58 -0500 Message-ID: <20000227050358375.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"v2ipQ1.0.4a.DsAku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >It isn't really so weird. I was just wondering if the Schumann (sp?) >resonance acted as a synchronising influence on populations? > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk I know, it's a very logical thing really, if you consider the fact that brain synapsis is more or less a plasma conduction mechanism. Gravitational, magnetic, and electrostatic influences would all tend to superimpose their own frequencies upon the overall population. I think that TV is probably a more likely source of entrainment. How else could you explain the weird political behavior or Zeitgeist that exists in a country like America, where people are so geographically spread out, yet so homogenized intellecually. I've re-read Randy Mills' theory, and I've decided that I want to have his baby, but first I have to Progressive Party and quit my job selling flowers at the airport for the Moonies. Peas and Luv Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 21:10:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA06342; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:08:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:08:45 -0800 Message-ID: <031301bf80e8$efb75240$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26 fjsparber><025701bf80bc$e8a99ca0$6f441d26@fjsparber><3.0.6.32.20000226194336.007de230@world.std.com><0cugbss1895e42pb6t6ji9mc9svurltf8o@4ax.com><3.0.6.32.2000022621194 3.007dc100 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000226215859.007e2a10@world.std.com> <02d701bf80dc$8c2d4240$6f441d26@fjsparber> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 22:07:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"k1AYG3.0.yY1.S5Bku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:21 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Look up the Ion Product Data 100 C to 1,000 C, and pressures to 10 kilobars, Robin. It's in the CRC handbook. Or look up Supercritical water on the net. FJS. > On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:38:44 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >When you look at the Ion Product (Posted in the CRC Bible) you get > >a decrease with a rise in temperature at some pressures and an increase > >with temperature at other pressures. So much for Boltzman's Tail. :-) > [snip] > Assuming for a moment that Mitchell is correct, then the logical conclusion > might be that higher pressures in first instance tend to destroy structure, > so that in turn would make the H+ creation mechanism less likely, and one > would expect the pH to go up (i.e. the H+ concentration to go down), at a > constant temperature. > While at low pressures, structure is maintained longer, and hence H+ > formation increases with temp. Is this what is observed? > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 00:08:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA32649; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:07:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:07:35 -0800 Message-ID: <20000227080854.21107.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:08:54 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: heat coupling medium To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"3Z0LV1.0.3-7.6jDku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been away for a while, so my contribution might be too late. Particulate and granular materials have poor thermal conductivities, but they do conduct a bit more than air. However, they have much more heat capacity than air. I suggest that you consider other liquids. I used carbon tetrachloride once in a series of experiments. It's somewhat toxic, but not overwhelmingly so. It's a high vapor pressure limits it's use to not much above room temperature, unless it is in a well closed system. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 00:14:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA15278; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:13:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:13:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000227081314.4294.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:13:14 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: EM and mechanical fluid To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"7KacD2.0.Qk3.ZoDku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Jonsson wrote: > I need help to calculate how the mechanical airflow is affected around an > electrical dipole. > > > air air > > - ##DIPOLE## + > -----> > Velocity of dipole > > air air > If the air is not ionized, its interaction with an electric field is very weak. There is a very, very slight attractive force on the air toward the region of highest electric field. The force is proportional to E squared. However, in many high voltage experiments the air is slightly ionized. The most common process is corona discharge. The charge injected into the air has the same sign as the nearby charged surface, so the force is repulsive. High voltage corona discharge pinwheels operate on this principle. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 00:21:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17233; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:19:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:19:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000227081938.10167.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:19:38 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: BLP: new experiments To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"gOHpE2.0.AD4.VuDku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I looked at 1. Temporal Behavior of Light-Emission in the Visible Spectral Range from the Ti-KCO3-H-Cell at > http://www.blacklightpower.com/experiments.html This looks like Dr. Conrads is just checking out aspects of the apparatus. There is no allusion to any unusual physics or chemistry. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 05:35:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06740; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 05:35:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 05:35:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000227073635.006eb8d0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 07:36:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: heat coupling medium In-Reply-To: <20000227080854.21107.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JAXnV1.0.9f1.7WIku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:08 AM 2/27/00 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: >I've been away for a while, so my contribution might be too late. never too late. >Particulate and granular materials have poor thermal conductivities, but they >do conduct a bit more than air. However, they have much more heat capacity >than air. good point. My goal is to reduce the thermal time constant...not increaase it! >I suggest that you consider other liquids. I used carbon tetrachloride once >in a series of experiments. It's somewhat toxic, but not overwhelmingly so. >It's a high vapor pressure limits it's use to not much above room >temperature, unless it is in a well closed system. I'll look into other liquids. Thanks. Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 05:45:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA08947; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 05:44:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 05:44:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000227074551.006f07a0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 07:45:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: new experiments In-Reply-To: <20000227081938.10167.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"J_TOQ3.0.fB2.leIku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:19 AM 2/27/00 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: >I looked at >1. Temporal Behavior of Light-Emission in the Visible Spectral Range from >the Ti-KCO3-H-Cell > >at > http://www.blacklightpower.com/experiments.html > >This looks like Dr. Conrads is just checking out aspects of the apparatus. >There is no allusion to any unusual physics or chemistry. That's what I thought at first, too, Michael. But down at the end of the letter he emphasizes (barely) that light was emitted by the cell AFTER the heater voltage had been set to zero. I don't have a description of the cell for this particular experiment but, in his letter, there is no mention of any other electrodes in the cell and Conrads suggests that the voltage drop across the heater was at least part of the stimulus for the characteristic line emission. Therefore it is at least curious that the light emission (and he's not talking about the blackbody radiation from the heater) did not stop promptly when the voltage was removed. Perhaps there are simply chemical reactions that occur in this very hot system that result in the light emission. Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 10:44:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09539; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:42:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:42:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:40:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Resent-Message-ID: <"FB63P1.0.xK2.D0Nku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{In real terms, the prices of virtually all commodities have been >>falling for thousands of years, yet gold has remained relatively valuable >>throughout that same time span. > >Interesting. But are you sure about that? ***{The simplest measure of the real costs of a commodity is the average number of man-hours required to obtain a given weight of it. That number, due to the inexorable advancement of technology, has been in a long-term state of decline for virtually everything. Nevertheless, during the entire period of recorded history, gold has retained its high relative value and its status as a preferred store of value. --MJ}*** > > > Why? Because something about the physics of >>gold has caused nature to create it in limited quantities, relative to most >>other things. Since it is relatively rare in nature, and since >>technological advancements that render it more easily obtainable also >>render other things more easily obtainable, the relative rarity of gold, >>for thousands of years, has been little affected by the steady advancement >>of technology. If, for example, technological advancement on some future >>date renders it easier to extract gold from sea water, those same >>advancements will render it easier to extract other things from sea water >>as well. > >Well that does make some sense. This is the first time I have seen a >logical argument in favor of the gold standard. ***{The term "gold standard" means different things to different people. One common usage refers to the system of international settlements that was employed prior to WWI, wherein gold was used to settle international accounts. Under that system a nation which, for example, inflated its currency by printing lots of paper money, soon found itself losing its reserves--gold--to other nations, because no central bank was willing to hold foreign paper in its vaults. While I consider that system to have been vastly superior to the fiat money system in use today, I do not support it, because it involved a vast array of property rights violations--e.g., "fractional reserve banking"--which should never have been tolerated. In the above connection, some elaboration is in order. "Fractional reserve banking" is simply the practice of lending out money deposited by an individual without denying him access to that money while it is loaned out. Such a procedure amounts to counterfeiting, since by means of it money is essentially created out of thin air. It has the effect of raising the level of prices above where it would have been if the new money had not been created, and, thus, of stealing a tiny amount from everyone in the society, by forcing them to pay those higher prices. It is an extremely pernicious form of fraud, is capable of producing massive "boom and bust" economic dislocations, and ought to be prosecuted as a crime. Instead of doing so, however, "gold standard" countries behaved very much like the parasitic states which prey upon us today, by tolerating and even attempting to protect those who engaged in this type of criminal activity. (The primary means of such protection has been the creation of institutions known as "central banks," which aim to bail out "fractional reserve" counterfeiters who overextend themselves by trying to steal too much.) Thus if you have any such notions in mind when you use the term "gold standard," you should understand that I am most assuredly *not* an advocate of such a system. In my view, when you loan money to someone, you must give up the use of it yourself. If you do not, then you are guilty of the type of fraud known as counterfeiting, and ought to be prosecuted for your crime. --Mitchell Jones}*** However, this >recommendation of yours seems extraordinarily risky to me. For one thing, >what nature creates is no longer the only issue. I consider it an >established fact that cold fusion transmutes gold into other elements. Now >I would never bet, let us say, $10,000 that CF can also transmute other, >cheaper elements such as mercury into gold. I would consider that too >risky. But *you* are suggesting that nearly every person on earth should >bet *all of their money* that CF will never transmute mercury into gold! >You are saying we should stake our entire life savings on this one >proposition: that this breakthrough will not occur, even though a similar >breakthrough in the other direction has already occurred. ***{The only isotope of gold that serves store-of-value purposes is 79Au197, which has a natural abundance of 100%--which means: it is virtually the *only* form of gold that exists in nature. All the other isotopes of gold are unstable, and intensely radioactive. Thus if you want to transmute mercury into gold, there is only one reaction by which you can do it: k-capture involving a nucleus of 80Hg197. Unfortunately, that won't work: 80Hg197 is a wildly radioactive unstable isotope which has a percentage abundance of *zero*. For practical purposes, it doesn't occur in nature. The reason: it transmuted itself into gold billions of years ago. That means you would have to create the 80Hg197, prior to transforming it into 79Au197. To do that, you would have to induce a k-capture using 81Ti197. However, once again, 81Ti197 is an unstable isotope that, practically speaking, does not exist in nature. Thus you would have to create it as well. But to do that, you would have to use a k-capture in 82Pb197, which also has a virtually zero natural abundance. That means you would have to create it as well. That would require the use of 83Bi197, which is an invalid isotopic form which does not exist at all. Hence the k-capture chain of decays is not a suitable method of creating gold by transmutation. Thus we do *not* need to worry about CF, even if it proves to be real, disrupting prices in the gold market by transmuting mercury into gold. The only other viable route by which transmutation could produce gold would be a beta- emission from 78Pt197, but that wouldn't work for the same reason as the above reaction: 78Pt197 is a wildly unstable isotope of platinum which does not occur in nature. Why not? Because all of it was transmuted into gold billions of years ago. Thus before we could induce a beta emission from 78Pt197, we would have to create it by inducing a beta emission from 77Ir197. But that is also an unstable isotope which is virtually nonexistent in nature, and we would have to create it by inducing a beta emission from 76Os197. Unfortunately, that is an invalid isotopic form which does not exist at all. Bottom line: everyone on the planet can safely stake their entire life savings on the proposition that the supply of gold is not going to be increased significantly by transmutation, even if CF proves to be real. What they cannot safely do, however, is stake their entire life savings on fiat paper money which fractional reserve banks have generated by counterfeiting, and which loses value year by year at rates which are subject to wildly unstable fluctuations. Nor can they safely stake their entire life savings on stock certificates the prices of which have been driven into the stratosphere by "momentum investing" hype and a worldwide flood of fiat paper money. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >>And, since gold is present in sea water at much lower abundances >>than most other things, > >The absolute abundance of materials is so great that relative abundances >may not be important. The most valuable thing we will get out seawater will >be fresh water, which is also the most abundant component. The second most >abundant chemical is salt, followed by magnesium. Large-scale CF based >desalination would produce so much salt and magnesium as a byproduct, that >I expect the value of these two commodities will essentially drop to zero, >and most of the Na, Cl and Mg will be washed right back into the ocean, as >they are today. I am assuming that selective, automatic extraction of >elements will become easier than it is today, and cheaper, based on some >technology similar to what is used to refine U isotopes. A river of >desalination feedwater will flow through the machinery, and as long as it >is gurgling through, some kind of molecular sieve will be used to pull out >Au, Rb, Cu and some other stuff. The Mg will wash back into the ocean, >because nobody will want it. Now then, just because Au will probably remain >more valuable than Mg, Cu, H, C and O for that matter, a large multiple of >nothing is still nothing. If Mg costs $1 a ton, Cu costs $2, and Au costs >$100, so what? I do not see why you are sure Au will remain more valuable >than paper or bananas. What would stop us from reaching the point where it >takes less manpower to produce a ton of Au than a ton of paper? >Desalination and element filtering will require equipment and energy. It is >impossible to predict the cost of the equipment, but we will need the >machines anyway, for the fresh water. The energy to produce a ton of gold >will cost less than $0.0000001. With or without CF, near-zero cost energy >is a sure thing, in my opinion. ***{The concentration of gold in sea water is 4 ppt (parts per trillion, by weight). [See *The World Ocean*, by Anikouchine & Sternberg, pg. 58.] Assuming that all the drinking water for the Earth's population of 6 billion is supplied by the desalinization of sea water, that means we need about 6x10^9 gallons per day, or about 50 billion pounds per day. The byproduct gold will then be about (4x10^-12)(50x10^9) = .2 lbs per day, whereas worldwide gold production in recent years has been running at a rate of about 3,000 metric tons per year, or 18,070 lbs per day. That means byproduct gold from desalinization would be a drop in the bucket, and would have a negligible effect on the price of gold, even if the most optimistic of the "free energy" scenarios were to play itself out. --MJ}*** > >Bananas and paper may continue to require hands-on human labor, whereas >desalination and element filtering probably will not. Processing adds value >to materials. The blue-tinted spring steel used in chronometers in 1800 was >worth more than its weight in gold; processed silicon wafers today is worth >more than gold, even though Fe and Si are among the most abundant elements. >In the future, the only materials with any value will be those which still >require human labor to produce, so if gold is extracted automatically from >desalination feed water (as I assume it will be), it will be cheaper than >processed silicon wafers, paper, LCD screens, tea leaves, or beany babies. ***{Nope. Such speculations don't hold up when you actually run the numbers. (See above.) --MJ}*** > >>***{As noted above, technological advancement improves access to all >>deposits of natural resources, rather than merely to gold deposits, and >>thus does nothing to alter the relative abundances of those resources. > >We have already changed the relative abundances of elements on earth! Pu >did not exist before 1942, and now we have tons of the stuff. Sooner or >later we will master other ways to transmute other elements, with CF or >some other method. Someday the natural abundance of elements and isotopes >will mean nothing. It may begin to happen in the next 10 or 20 years. No >expert in CF will dare to predict it cannot happen. ***{In order for transmutation to be capable of producing a large increase in the supply of gold, there must either be a chain of beta emissions leading from an abundant isotope to gold, or a chain of k-captures leading from an abundant isotope to gold. However, no such chain exists. The beta emission chain, in which a neutron is transformed into a proton, is the following: 76Os197 --> 77Ir197 --> 78Pt197 --> 79Au197 The first element in the chain is a fiction: it does not exist. The other intermediate steps are radioisotopes with natural abundances that are virtually zero. The only thing in the chain that is real is 79Au197. Similar considerations apply to a chain based on electron capture, wherein a proton is transformed into a neutron. Such a chain needs to begin with an isotope that is abundant in nature, and end in 79Au197. Unfortunately, no such chain exists. The k-capture chain is the following: 83Bi197 --> 82Pb197 --> 81Ti197 --> 80Hg197 --> 79Au197 Once again, the first element in the chain is a fiction: it does not exist. And, once again, the intermediate elements in the chain are radioisotopes with natural abundances that are virtually zero. The only thing in the chain that is real is 79Au197. Bottom line: It is not an accident that, over the span of recorded history, the operation of the free market has selected gold--79Au197--as the preeminent store-of-value commodity. It has held its value in the face of advancing technology for more than 10,000 years, and there is every reason to believe that it will continue to do so in the future. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 10:52:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA11697; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:50:23 -0800 Message-ID: <007901bf81b8$12e7a600$0a8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: EEG Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:50:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Mcnez3.0.hs2.l7Nku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, > >If a number of physically separated people are hooked up, each to their own >EEG device, are their alpha brain waves in phase at any given point in time? >I.e. are they synchronised? I didn't realize they talked about things like this on Vortex :-) Really it is a very good question, which resolves into the main question, IS there a causal relationship between the Schumann resonances and the human brainwave power spectrum? There is plenty of reason to suspect this since as I'm sure you know the Schumann resonance power spectrum fits the average EEG power spectrum pretty closely, at least up to the 50-60 Hz point. But it would be very difficult to prove this and there is no reason to think there is a direct resonance effect, sine the wavelength is so long compared to the human skull. However it is known that the pineal gland is an extremely sensitive magnetic field detector which can respond to rapid changes in the (as I vaguely remember) microTesla range. So there is a means by which the Schumann resonances can be detected by the brain. It is also known from studies of circadian rhythms that very weak electric or magnetic pulses can maintain circadian rhythms in a room which is artificially cut off from natural patterns. I do recall some telepathy studies showed that EEGs of people in the same room or nearby rooms did tend to synchronize, and that when people's brain waves were artificially synchronized by biofeedback means, their telepathy scores went up. Sorry I don't have refs here for any of this, I am house sitting at the moment... So it would not be too surprising to expect this sort of phase correlation of an individual with the S.R, and if that is true, then the answer to your original question would be Yes, since the S.R is more or less in phase everywhere in one hemisphere-- NOT over the whole planet since the frequencies change at nightfall. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 12:53:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08116; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:52:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:52:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000227155013.007aa320 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:50:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The gold non-standard In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA08069 Resent-Message-ID: <"xL15v.0.f-1.2wOku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The concentration of gold in sea water is 4 ppt (parts per trillion, by >weight). [See *The World Ocean*, by Anikouchine & Sternberg, pg. 58.] I believe that number is way off. The references I have seen in books and on Internet place it somewhere between 0.07 ppm and "a very conservative" 10 ppb. >It has held its value in the face of >advancing technology for more than 10,000 years, and there is every reason >to believe that it will continue to do so in the future. If there is one thing advancing technology does, it is to radically change the relative values of goods and services. There can never be any assurance that this "cannot" happen with gold, and it would be foolish for a person to bet all of his money on this prediction of yours. Even if gold cannot be conveniently transmuted or extracted from seawater, there are other potential methods that may pan out in the near future which might radically lower the cost of extraction, such as biological techniques. Auriphile bacteria species have already been discovered. Bacillus cereus is being used by Canadian mining companies to increase the gold yield. Coral can concentrate extremely rare elements in the ocean. Genetic engineering might give it the ability to conctrate gold in commercially valuable levels. (A. C. Clarke's idea, in "Imperial Earth.") Some other breakthrough like this might lower the cost by a factor of 10, or 100. The Japanese are recovering U from seawater at a reasonable cost per pound, even though U is only 3 ppb of seawater. It is an order of maganitude more expensive than regular U mining, but a brand new technology that starts off 10 times more expensive than the established methods may have room to fall in price rapidly. Most of the energy used in this operation costs nothing. I read about this in a magazine, and here is a quote from http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/upusa.html: "One possibility for maintaining fission as a major option without reprocessing is low-cost extraction of uranium from seawater. The uranium concentration of sea water is low (approximately 3 ppb) but the quantity of contained uranium is vast — some 4 billion tonnes (about 700 times more than known terrestrial resources recoverable at a price of up to $130 per kg). If half of this resource could ultimately be recovered, it could support for 6,500 years 3,000 GW of nuclear capacity (75 percent capacity factor) based on next-generation reactors (e.g., high-temperature gas-cooled reactors) operated on once-through fuel cycles. Research on a process being developed in Japan suggests that it might be feasible to recover uranium from seawater at a cost of $120 per lb of U[3]O[8] Although this is more than 10 times the current uranium price, it would contribute just 0.5¢ per kWh to the cost of electricity for a next-generation reactor operated on a once-through fuel cycle—equivalent to the fuel cost for an oil-fired power plant burning $3-a-barrel oil." 40 Nobukawa 1994: H. Nobukawa "Development of a Floating Type System for Uranium Extraction from Sea Water Using Sea Current and Wave Power," in Proceedings of the 4 International Offshore and Polar Engineering Conference (Osaka, Japan: 10-15 April 1994), pp. 294-300. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 15:28:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14831; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:26:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:26:40 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 18:31:46 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: ApplesRE: HV Circuit Safety In-Reply-To: <01BF7FE9.BECCBEE0 istf-1-25.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-5LrS3.0.fd3.mARku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Apples If you can safely convey leads from your unknown circuit and want to get an idea of the potency of your source you can take an apple, or potato and apply the conductors to the fruit or vegatable DO NOT HOLD TO FOOD ...... DO NOT TRY ANY TEST ON A CONDUCTIVE SURFACE The food will discolor, sizzle, smoke, or otherwise sort of do what would have happened to YOU! I like apples because the smell better burning than potatos. BY THE WAY Everyone should contribute to list of safety and to this list of "Hidden Conductors" The following is a list of stuff which will conduct electricity ... maybe not so great for making a radio, but plenty good enough to kill you.. Carbon, soot, pencils, many ball point pen cartridges, screwdrivers, damp and-or dirty and-or charred surfaces Everyone.... keep them coming On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Dan Quickert wrote: > Got to agree with John on this one. I used to do a bit of work with hv circuits, caps, etc... > In the interest of properly educating our younger readers (do as I say, not as I did ;-), and with all due respect, Ralph and Robin: if you have enough doubt to use the back of your finger or give it a "glancing blow" then you don't really "believe it t o be safe" and might be better off using a different test instrument. Meters and such for the tame, neon bulbs for the visually stimulated, screwdriver-popping for us neanderthals... (what's that about potatoes and apples, John?) > > Dan Quickert > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Schnurer > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:51 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety > > Use a meter.... > > Or a potato ... or apple > > NOT YOUR BLING BLANG HANDS!!!! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 15:30:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA01258; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000227182524.007ac5b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 18:25:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The gold non-standard In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5GwFk.0.QJ.XBRku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >Assuming that all the drinking water for the Earth's population of 6 >billion is supplied by the desalinization of sea water, that means we need >about 6x10^9 gallons per day, or about 50 billion pounds per day. Even with massive deslination projects, most water would come from fresh water source, but anyway, this estimate of consumption is w-a-a-a-y too low! Even in third world countries counting only potable water alone, consumption is much more than a gallon per day (8 to 10 lbs). The amount used in industry, washing, sewage treatment, irrigation and so on. U.S. urban consumption varies from 140 to 250 cubic meters per capita per annum (source: Santa Barbara Department of Public Works), and rural use is a lot higher. 140 = 0.4 m^3 per day = 400 liters = ~100 gallons. Anyway, worldwide deslination production is already well a billion gallons a day, and with CF it would soon expand way beyond today's levels. In 1993 there were "7,500 desalination plants in operation worldwide, 60% are located in the Middle East. The world's largest plant in Saudi Arabia produces 128 MGD" - California Coastal Commission, "Seawater Desalination in California." (I recommend this document.) http://www.ceres.ca.gov/coastalcomm/desalrpt/dtitle.html#TOCDesalination With CF I anticipate massive deslination projects to irrigate North Africa and Gobi deserts and "terraform" the earth. >The >byproduct gold will then be about (4x10^-12)(50x10^9) = .2 lbs per day, >whereas worldwide gold production in recent years has been running at a >rate of about 3,000 metric tons per year, or 18,070 lbs per day. I think it would be more like 20 to 200 lbs per day, and I do not think present production is as high as 18,000 lbs per day, but I know a lot less about gold than water. Water is much more valuable. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 20:25:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21512; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:23:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:23:22 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: EEG Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:34:48 -0500 Message-ID: <20000228043448062.AAA275 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"us_2.0.2G5.wWVku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Since you've brought the subject up, read this bit on synchronicity and behavior. http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/clap000223.html OK now Reed Hoppa, rut is the sound of one hand crapping. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 20:49:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24697; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:35:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:35:56 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <94.1425f0e.25eb5503 aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:35:15 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"hZ5vL.0.p16.iiVku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 02/26/2000 4:21:34 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: << He told me and several others many times over the years that he has no interest in marketing, or attracting customers, and no desire to work with industrial corporations.>> Mills isn't a marketing expert, and he may not want BLP to become a huge industrial manufacturer itself (the strategy as explained on the website is to make money by licensing and royalties), but he's definitely interested in working with industrial corporations. Take another look at the BLP website. <<>And why didn't NERL do a Mills-type replication? Because everyone we know who has tried, has failed.>> Mitchell Swartz has already expressed his surprise at this claim, and I imagine that Robert Bush and Reiko Notoya would be surprised, too. In a message dated Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:44:39 -0500, in the thread "Re: BlackLight Power Patent," you wrote, <> How about increasing the ratio of favorable to rude comments? There are lots of favorable things to say about Mills and BLP and their work. The 1992 Thermacore experiments and presentation at MIT were impressive, and BLP's work since then even more so. Well, I have to get back to work myself, so I won't be continuing this thread. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 21:37:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA06169; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:23:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:23:02 -0800 Message-ID: <20000228052238.12541.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:22:38 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: heat coupling medium To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ur59P1.0.IW1.sOWku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Also, I have used kerosene as a heat transfer liquid in electrical systems. True, it is flamable, but not too much so. It is only dangerous when it gets hot enough to make a lot of vapor. It is hard to ignite the liquid. So, if you can assure that the kerosene will never get too hot or come in contact with something that is too hot, it is a reasonable choice. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 01:37:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA13907; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:36:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:36:31 -0800 Message-ID: <037e01bf81d7$810678e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 02:34:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"e3bIy.0.9P3.V6aku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: QED stipulates that pair production can occur in collisions between charges, dE = h/dt. If you consider the Positive (Hydrogen) and Negative (Oxygen) ends of water molecules in the bulk liquid as continuously in collision, especially when the water is agitated, mechanically thermally, or by photon input, then since the ~0.48 intermolecular hydrogen-oxygen binding energy is interestingly close to the proposed ~0.4 ev (3.1 Micron, 6.4E-20 joule ) Positrino-Negatrino Pair Production energy only requires an ~ 1.03E-14 second collision to create the Light Lepton Pair: E = 6.4E-20 joule = 6.626E-34 joule-sec/1.03E-14 sec IOW, about anything you do with Subcritical water will allow "intrinsic" LL (+/-) Pair Production. Thus "Autoionization" might be (-)H2O + H2O(+) <----> (-)H2O(+) + H2O along with, or rather than H2O <---> H+ + OH- or, 2 H2O <---> (H3O+) + OH- . I don't have a Feyman Diagram handy to show this, but it can happen. Then in the presence of a "Catalyst" such as 2 K+ and CO3 = and H+ ions (Protons) the energetic EUV, "fractional orbit", and CF/OU-Fission Reactions can occur. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 07:57:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30178; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:55:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:55:26 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:06:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20000228160649078.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"W3TDO1.0.MN7.jffku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >I don't have a Feyman Diagram handy to show this, but it can happen. > >Then in the presence of a "Catalyst" such as 2 K+ and CO3 = and H+ ions (Protons) the energetic >EUV, "fractional orbit", and CF/OU-Fission Reactions can occur. > >Regards, Frederick Hi Fred, Dr. Rusek is using a carbon cathode in his H2O2 "Catholytic" fuel cells, along with the KOH electrolyte and of course the AL alloy anode. He has postulated that the Carbon may be inhibiting the ion species production necessary for a complete reaction to occur. Is the CO3 absolutely necessary do you think for your proposed reaction, or could it possibly done with O3 or some other O3 molecule? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 08:34:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10205; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:32:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:32:38 -0800 Message-ID: <039901bf8211$9ca558c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000228160649078.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:30:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Mtzvd3.0.NV2.cCgku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:06 AM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Knuke wrote: > Fred writes: > >I don't have a Feynman Diagram handy to show this, but it can happen. > > > >Then in the presence of a "Catalyst" such as 2 K+ and CO3 = and H+ ions > (Protons) the energetic > >EUV, "fractional orbit", and CF/OU-Fission Reactions can occur. > > > >Regards, Frederick > > Hi Fred, > > Dr. Rusek is using a carbon cathode in his H2O2 "Catholytic" fuel cells, > along with the KOH electrolyte and of course the AL alloy anode. He has > postulated that the Carbon may be inhibiting the ion species production > necessary for a complete reaction to occur. > Is the CO3 absolutely necessary > do you think for your proposed reaction, or could it possibly done with O3 > or some other O3 molecule? O- O-H / / The CO3 = ion: O=C or HCO3- ion: O=C \ \ O- O- If ascii works indicates that it may be just as important as the K+ ions. O3 is ozone and is bonded differently. The weak HO-OH bond in Hydrogen Peroxide might be formed by LL interaction. The K+ can react with the carbon cathode also. Note that none of the CF devices use KOH <---> (K+) + (OH-) Hope that helps. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 09:24:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25078; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:21:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:21:46 -0800 Message-ID: <38BAAED8.7F285B88 info2000.net> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:22:33 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The other half.... or more References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rb9wu.0.m76.gwgku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear John (Schnurer), Check out eagle-research.com. I saw George weisman and his "water torch" E.G. brown's gas generator at the phoenix Exotic Research conference in July of '99. It's an amazing thing. I bought his books on the subject and am in the process of building my own torch. His books are very reasonable priced. Have a good day, Ted From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:09:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09570; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:06:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:06:06 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000227155013.007aa320 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:05:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA09545 Resent-Message-ID: <"5hqRz1.0.PL2.Dahku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{The concentration of gold in sea water is 4 ppt (parts per trillion, by >>weight). [See *The World Ocean*, by Anikouchine & Sternberg, pg. 58.] > >I believe that number is way off. The references I have seen in books and >on Internet place it somewhere between 0.07 ppm and "a very conservative" >10 ppb. ***{It is your belief that is "way off." The book cited above is a standard college textbook in oceanography, not a popular treatment done by an amateur. Moreover, I have other texts on the same subject, all of which cite essentially the same number. For example, in *An Introduction to the World's Oceans*, by Alyn Duxbury (Univ. of Washington), the concentration of gold in seawater is given as .0049 ppb (parts per billion), which is 4.9 ppt. Bottom line: your argument has been dispatched into the great beyond by an ugly fact, and it is time for you to give it up. --MJ}*** > >>It has held its value in the face of >>advancing technology for more than 10,000 years, and there is every reason >>to believe that it will continue to do so in the future. > >If there is one thing advancing technology does, it is to radically change >the relative values of goods and services. There can never be any assurance >that this "cannot" happen with gold, and it would be foolish for a person >to bet all of his money on this prediction of yours. ***{I never suggested that anyone "bet all of his money" on anything. What I said was the following: "The financial markets, properly, are the province of the rich and of those few who, though not rich, have the brilliance of intellect and the iron discipline which successful investing requires. The rest should hold their savings in the form of gold at a private storage facility (not a bank), and invest only in areas that enhance their own life, such as in their business, their home, a vacation retreat, a boat, etc. Trying to do more, for most people, is an invitation to disaster." As the above paragraph made crystal clear, I distinguish between a person's life savings and his investment funds. A person's savings need to be in a form that is, to the extent possible, immune to the vicissitudes of the marketplace and the destabilizing and predatory actions of governments. While no choice in this area is absolutely certain, the clear lesson of history is that the most reliable store of value is gold, and that is the form prudent men have chosen for their savings from time immemorial. --Mitchell Jones}*** Even if gold cannot be >conveniently transmuted or extracted from seawater, there are other >potential methods that may pan out in the near future which might radically >lower the cost of extraction, such as biological techniques. Auriphile >bacteria species have already been discovered. Bacillus cereus is being >used by Canadian mining companies to increase the gold yield. Coral can >concentrate extremely rare elements in the ocean. Genetic engineering might >give it the ability to conctrate gold in commercially valuable levels. (A. >C. Clarke's idea, in "Imperial Earth.") Some other breakthrough like this >might lower the cost by a factor of 10, or 100. ***{As I have already pointed out to you, technological advancement does not merely lower the real production costs of gold, but of all raw materials. Result: the relative rarity of gold is unaffected, and its purchasing power vis-a-vis other goods and services is unaffected. Moreover, in the specific case of gold, which is primarily used as a store of value, demand increases as the human population increases. More people means more people with savings that they want to protect from the visissitudes of the marketplace and from the predatory actions of governments. (Not to mention more demand for gold jewlry, gold caps on teeth, gold in circuit boards, etc.) Since technological advancement has the effect of increasing the human population, there is a tendency for gold to increase in purchasing power, relative to other commodities--e.g., wheat--which are much more easily increased in supply. In any case, vague speculations about unknown events that may, in the future, adversely affect one's activities, can be directed at *all* planned courses of action, rather than merely at a plan to hold one's savings in the form of gold. That's why reasonable people continue to plan and act, despite living in a world where every aspect of the future cannot be known, and it is why they are inclined to ignore objections that cannot be given a specific and concrete form. In the present case, the volatility of the stock market and the effects of government induced variations in the quantity of paper money and, hence, of its purchasing power, are concrete and unarguable facts of history, and so is the reliability of gold as a safe haven from those fluctuations. The rest is just noise. --MJ}*** > >The Japanese are recovering U from seawater at a reasonable cost per pound, >even though U is only 3 ppb of seawater. It is an order of maganitude more >expensive than regular U mining, but a brand new technology that starts off >10 times more expensive than the established methods may have room to fall >in price rapidly. Most of the energy used in this operation costs nothing. >I read about this in a magazine, and here is a quote from >http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/upusa.html: > >"One possibility for maintaining fission as a major option without >reprocessing is low-cost extraction of uranium from seawater. The uranium >concentration of sea water is low (approximately 3 ppb) but the quantity of >contained uranium is vast — some 4 billion tonnes (about 700 times more >than known terrestrial resources recoverable at a price of up to $130 per >kg). If half of this resource could ultimately be recovered, it could >support for 6,500 years 3,000 GW of nuclear capacity (75 percent capacity >factor) based on next-generation reactors (e.g., high-temperature >gas-cooled reactors) operated on once-through fuel cycles. Research on a >process being developed in Japan suggests that it might be feasible to >recover uranium from seawater at a cost of $120 per lb of U[3]O[8] Although >this is more than 10 times the current uranium price, it would contribute >just 0.5¢ per kWh to the cost of electricity for a next-generation reactor >operated on a once-through fuel cycle—equivalent to the fuel cost for an >oil-fired power plant burning $3-a-barrel oil." > >40 Nobukawa 1994: H. Nobukawa "Development of a Floating Type System for >Uranium Extraction from Sea Water Using Sea Current and Wave Power," in >Proceedings of the 4 International Offshore and Polar Engineering >Conference (Osaka, Japan: 10-15 April 1994), pp. 294-300. ***{Since the concentration of gold in seawater is 3 orders of magnitude less than the concentration of uranium, the above speculations are manifestly irrelevant to the issue under discussion. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:20:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA13773; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:18:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:18:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000227182524.007ac5b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:15:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Resent-Message-ID: <"Gdtex.0.6N3.jlhku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>Assuming that all the drinking water for the Earth's population of 6 >>billion is supplied by the desalinization of sea water, that means we need >>about 6x10^9 gallons per day, or about 50 billion pounds per day. > >Even with massive deslination projects, most water would come from fresh >water source, but anyway, this estimate of consumption is w-a-a-a-y too >low! Even in third world countries counting only potable water alone, >consumption is much more than a gallon per day (8 to 10 lbs). ***{Most people don't drink a gallon of water a day, and in any case my estimate that *all* of the world's drinking water would be supplied by desalinization was absurdly high and overly generous to your position, rather than "w-a-a-a-y too low". The fact is that virtually all the drinking water consumed by the human population of this planet is and will continue to be supplied from fresh water sources. The only thing that could alter that state of affairs would be a vast increase in the human population, and, if that happens, it will be accompanied by a correspondingly vast increase in the demand for gold. If, for example, the population of the Earth rises from 6 to 12 billion, then the consumption of gold will double, to more than 8,000 metric tons per year, or 22 metric tons per day, while the byproduct gold from desalinization will supply a mere .2 lbs/day. Result: a spectacular rise in the price of gold, rather than the decline which you project. --MJ}*** The amount >used in industry, washing, sewage treatment, irrigation and so on. U.S. >urban consumption varies from 140 to 250 cubic meters per capita per annum >(source: Santa Barbara Department of Public Works), and rural use is a lot >higher. 140 = 0.4 m^3 per day = 400 liters = ~100 gallons. ***{Given that the human population increases from 6 to 12 billion, that *all* of the water usage by the additional 6 billion people is supplied by desalinization, and that your 100 gallons per day figure is correct, the byproduct gold would then be 20 lbs/day. Once again, that is a trivial amount which would do nothing to offset the consumption increase of 11 metric tons of gold per day. Result: in the absence of vast new gold discoveries, the price of gold would soar into the stratosphere. --MJ}*** > >Anyway, worldwide deslination production is already well a billion gallons >a day, and with CF it would soon expand way beyond today's levels. In 1993 >there were "7,500 desalination plants in operation worldwide, 60% are >located in the Middle East. The world's largest plant in Saudi Arabia >produces 128 MGD" - California Coastal Commission, "Seawater Desalination >in California." (I recommend this document.) > >http://www.ceres.ca.gov/coastalcomm/desalrpt/dtitle.html#TOCDesalination > >With CF I anticipate massive deslination projects to irrigate North Africa >and Gobi deserts and "terraform" the earth. ***{I have no idea why you keep talking on about this stuff without running the numbers. You are faced with a merciless fact: that the concentration of gold in seawater is about 4 parts per trillion by weight. That fact utterly demolishes your speculations about the impact of desalinization on the price of gold, under any scenario, because the impact of the sorts of massive projects that you envision will be to vastly increase the human population in the affected regions, thereby generating a proportionate increase in the demand for gold. Since the concentration of gold in seawater is negligible, the net effect will be a spectacular *rise*, not fall, in the gold price. For example, to irrigate a square section of desert which is 1000 miles on a side at a level equivalent to 36 inches of rainfall per year, we must supply (3)[(1000)(5280)]^2 = 8.36x10^13 cubic feet of water. A cubic foot of water weighs (2.2)[(12)(2.54)]^3/1000 = 62.3 lbs, so we must supply 5.21x10^15 lbs of water per year. If it comes from desalinization of seawater, byproduct gold is 20,832 lbs per year, or about 9.5 metric tons. In other words, if we irrigate a million square miles of desert to a level equivalent to 36 inches of rainfall per year, by means of desalinization of seawater, byproduct gold will be about 9.5 metric tons. Thus if we irrigate all of the great deserts of the world including the Sahara, the Arabian desert, the Persian desert, the deserts of Turkestan, the Gobi, the Punjab, the Chihuahuan desert, the Mojave, etc., which comprise a total of 6.5 million square miles, we will produce byproduct gold in the amount of (6.5)(9.5) = 62 metric tons per year. With annual production of gold (including reclamation) running roughly at 3,000 metric tons per year and with consumption running at 4,000 metric tons (the deficit is being met by central bank sales and by short sales of gold leased from central banks), it is crystal clear that the increased demand for gold due to the rising population in the irrigated areas will dwarf the effects of the sale of an additional 62 metric tons per year. Bottom line: if ever there were a dog that won't hunt, your prediction of falling gold prices due to desalinization of sea water would have to be it. --MJ}*** > > >>The >>byproduct gold will then be about (4x10^-12)(50x10^9) = .2 lbs per day, >>whereas worldwide gold production in recent years has been running at a >>rate of about 3,000 metric tons per year, or 18,070 lbs per day. > >I think it would be more like 20 to 200 lbs per day ***{This is a simple matter of arithmetic where your subjective feelings are irrelevant. Like it or not, (4x10^-12)(50x10^9) = .2 lbs per day. --MJ}*** , and I do not think >present production is as high as 18,000 lbs per day, but I know a lot less >about gold than water. ***{If you do not count reclamation of gold (from old circuit boards, etc.) as part of production, I would guess that the figure could be as low as 2300 metric tons per year, but even that number is far too high to do you any good. The disparity between the amount of byproduct gold that could be produced from desalinization is still huge. If you want to see a hard number, well, surely you have an old encyclopedia in your house. Why not simply flip it open to "gold" and check the production figures for whatever years it discusses? Any number you obtain will dwarf the figures for byproduct gold that can be obtained from desalinization. For example, I have an old edition of the Americana which gives worldwide production of gold in 1940 as 41,067,101 troy ounces. Since there are 12 troy ounces per lb., that comes to (41067101)/(12)(2200) = 1556 metric tons per year. That's about half the present level, but it still utterly dwarfs the 62 metric tons of byproduct gold that could be produced by desalinization, even if you were to irrigate every desert on the whole planet. --MJ}*** Water is much more valuable. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:36:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19383; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:34:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:34:43 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:34:30 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: HV Circuit Safety In-Reply-To: <20000226091104093.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yNP2x.0.dk4._-hku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knuke I love your stories, please keep them up. Hank On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > Dan writes: > >Got to agree with John on this one. I used to do a bit of work with hv > circuits, caps, etc... > >In the interest of properly educating our younger readers (do as I say, not > as I did ;-), and with all due respect, Ralph and Robin: if you have enough > doubt to use the back of your finger or give it a "glancing blow" then you > don't really "believe it to be safe" and might be better off using a > different test instrument. Meters and such for the tame, neon bulbs for the > visually stimulated, screwdriver-popping for us neanderthals... (what's that > about potatoes and apples, John?) > > > >Dan Quickert > > I also have to agree. I got another response from someone telling me about > the famous "always keep one hand in your pocket" trick. I know he wasn't > serious. You can't do much work with one hand in your pocket, and if you > are soaked in seawater, you can have both hands in your pocket, and it won't > help you. > > Luke Skywelder and I were welding on a barge once, and we had this guy Dolan > as a firewatcher. It was like 38 degrees, rainy, typical miserable Seattle > winter day, and Luke had thrown up a tarp over the place that we were > welding. We were both laying down, and I heard some banging so I stopped, > popped off my hood and there was Luke beating on his arm which was on fire. > He looked pretty disgusted. It was nothing major, he had six layers of > clothes on, but I looked around for Dolan, who was supposed to be watching > out for that sort of thing, and he was off in a corner looking out at the > water, totally oblivious. Luke looked at me yelled "Hey Dolan! I'm not > getting any arc! Go check my ground clip, wouldja!" This kid kind of wakes > up, and ambles over to the clip, and starts to wiggle it. Luke waited until > the kid had a good grip on the thing, fired up an arc, which of course sends > this kid about three feet into the air screaming, and I almost rolled off > the barge laughing. Luke says "you know Knuke, I did the exact same thing > to him just two days ago, you would think he'd figure it out." He shook his > head, and we went back to work. > > Another guy I worked with came off a crabber with a pile of cash, went to > Reno for a week, came back broke and married to some woman that he met in a > casino. He starts back to work, and goes to fire an arc, but his welding > glove was soaked in seawater. The arc goes right through his glove where > the wedding ring was. He's swearing up a storm, and he jerks the glove off > only to find that the finger and ring just stayed in the glove. The hand > came out perfectly cauterized and smoking, no blood or anything, just > blackened. So he jams his hand in the cold water to numb it, then he jumps > in his car and drives off before any of us could even think. We all > reckoned that he went to the doctor, right? He comes back the next day, we > ask him what the doctor said. He just goes, "Doctor?! I didn't go to the > doctor. I went straight to my lawyer, and filed for DIVORCE!!" > > Thanks for all the safety suggestions so far, if you've got more, let me > have'em. I'm still collecting them. The stories are always fun too, as > long as they not too grizzly. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:52:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23478; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:48:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:48:24 -0800 Message-ID: <20000228184744.45014.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [64.6.128.251] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The gold non-standard Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:47:44 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7Iw_E2.0.mk5.uBiku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excuse me for stepping into this argument, but I would like to point out that BOTH side have some interesting points. My sources have the gold concentration in seawater at roughly 6 ppt which does suggest the impossibility of efficiently retrieving it from seawater. However that is beside the point of the original disagreement which was whether gold should be used as the ideal store of wealth medium. As should be obvious, the price of ANY material in today's society fluctuates quite a bit as the market changes and while gold does tend to be more valuable per weight than other metals its value does change daily and it has not always been the best material for the store of wealth. I know that most scientists are overly fond of violent disagreement about minor points of data and trivial theoretical predictions that have no method of proof or disproof which cannot be refuted by someone, but I suggest for sanity that this be declared a tie and everyone go home feeling vindicated by a good argument presented. Merlyn aka The Ref ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:59:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23079; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:55:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:55:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000228135440.00799cb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:54:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The gold non-standard In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000227155013.007aa320 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000225155406.0079be60 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000224171240.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"--AiE2.0.Fe5.dIiku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{It is your belief that is "way off." The book cited above is a standard >college textbook in oceanography, not a popular treatment done by an >amateur. Oh come now. You know me better than that. I may be wrong and I frequently mistake orders of magnitude, but I never depend upon "amateurs." My information comes from the Gold Institute and the Bureau of Land Management, Environmental Education Homepage, which says: All seawater contains gold in solution, on average, about one grain of gold (.0648 grams), worth 5 cents, to approximately one metric ton of water. A metric ton is a million grams, so that's 0.07 ppm, not ppb or ppt. However, other sources do say that estimates have decreased in recent years: http://www.optonline.com/comptons/ceo/01919_A.html Compton's On-line Encyclopedia Gold in the Sea Estimates of the gold content of the oceans have varied widely. If the fairly conservative figure of .00005 grams per metric ton, or one part in 20 billion is accepted, the world's oceans may hold some 70 million tons of gold . . . And here is an amateur source that agrees with you: http://www.goldfever.com/goldfever/gold_sea.htm Seawater contains gold in solution. The English chemist, S. Sonstadt, was the first to definitely establish its presence in 1872. Even today, though, precise measurements of its concentration are highly controversial. Owing to gold's extreme dilution, many factors confound its experimental measurement, such as the necessity for ultra pure reagents, gold's affinity for and absorption into the walls of the experimental glassware, and gold's tendency to precipitate out of solution during transportation or preservation (Burk 1989). Though some of the earlier investigations, prior to 1960, have yielded wildly varied values, as high as 4000 ppt (parts per trillion) (Putman 1953), subsequent efforts have been more consistent. When considering only the data gathered since 1980, reported values for the concentration of gold in seawater have ranged from 5 to 50 ppt (Lucas 1985), with the average concentration at about 13 ppt. It seems the experts cannot agree. It is likely that concentrations vary from place to place in the ocean, perhaps because bacteria are known to scavenge the stuff in warmer water. >Bottom line: your argument has been dispatched into the great beyond >by an ugly fact, and it is time for you to give it up. --MJ}*** Ah, Mitchell. If I could only be half as confident about anything as you are of everthing, I would be a contented soul. Probably wrong, but contented. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 11:23:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02825; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:20:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:20:17 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:31:44 -0500 Message-ID: <20000228193144859.AAA247 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"KnP-d.0._h.mfiku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: > > O- O-H > / / >The CO3 = ion: O=C or HCO3- ion: O=C > \ \ > O- O- > >If ascii works indicates that it may be just as important as the K+ ions. > >O3 is ozone and is bonded differently. The weak HO-OH bond in Hydrogen Peroxide might be >formed by LL interaction. The K+ can react with the carbon cathode also. Note that none of >the CF devices use KOH <---> (K+) + (OH-) First of all, I take it that the O3 molecule is more tightly bound than that of the H2O2. I also understand that the CF cells and Dr. Rusek's cell are trying to accomplish two completely different goals. The CF cells are, very simply put, trying to get Hydrogen into the cathode lattice to generate a fusion reaction and heat, whereas the Rusek cell is merely trying to Oxidize the anode and taking the electrons in the process. I'm wondering a couple of things about the Rusek cell. First of all, to make it lighter, I'm wondering if it would be feasible to run the Ozone, say from the output gas of Naudin's glow discharge panel, over some sheets of aluminum without any electrolyte, and if that would be sufficient to get it to oxidize. I'm wondering if the Hydrogen is even necessary, and if it is, would there be enough in the air to make the reaction still happen. I'm wondering if I took Al sheets from beercans, perhaps even heating them up a bit, and pounding table salt into the sheets, if that would help the reaction in air as opposed to having an electrolyte. Not having an electrolyte, of course would reduce the weight significantly, and for Earth atmosphere applications, it would mean that the only fuel that you would have to carry would be the Al. I read the Rusek paper for the third time, and wanted to make some corrections to what I reported earlier. First of all the reaction byproduct is Aluminum Hydroxide, not Aluminum Oxide. Rusek is also calling the reaction a "half cell" reaction or redux reaction, in that he doesn't think that the Na or the K take part in the reaction. Both the Al (reducing agent) and H2O2 (oxidizing agent) form a redux couple. The equations that he has are as follows: Anode: Al + 4OH- -----> Al + 2H2O + 3e- Cathode: H2O2 + 2e- -----> 2OH- Overall reaction: 2Al + 3H2O2 + 2OH- ------> 2AlO2- + 4H2O The Magnesium and Mercury content of the anode are not specified, and are not accounted for in the equations. >Hope that helps. :-) Well, it probably helps those who have taken Chemistry a lot more than it does me, but I'll ask these questions, anyway. Thanks for taking the time to answer. Rusek also suggested for further experimentation that a Au cathode be used. If the K or Na does actually react with the cathode, and the Carbon is indeed significant in the reaction, then maybe he should try KCO3 or NaCO3 along with the gold. Who knows, but there is definitely some room to play around to see what is best. Any other, more intelligent than mine type suggestions are appreciated. Since it is so cheap and easy to experiment with this, wild guesses will be appreciated, too. :) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 11:47:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09726; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:45:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:45:01 -0800 Message-ID: <38BAC434.D2817250 info2000.net> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:53:40 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EEG and Alpha brain waves References: <20000227030827296.AAA229 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PaGRM3.0.pN2.z0jku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Careful Robin, The CIA is listening. ;) Ted From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:10:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04459; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:06:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:06:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000228150457.0079d6f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:04:57 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Water consumption, Japanese dikes, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RPjC63.0.S51.eKjku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Most people don't drink a gallon of water a day, and in any case my >estimate that *all* of the world's drinking water would be supplied by >desalinization was absurdly high and overly generous to your position . . . People do not drink that much, but they need a lot more than that to survive. In primitive cultures where people eat meat, the animals consume large amounts of water. In vegetarian cultures, people irrigate. East Asian rice cultivation calls for an amazing amount of water. Places like Vietnam and Japan have lots of rain, so they build dikes and ponds. It is a constant, labor intensive battle to keep the dikes from being overgrown and destroyed by the forest. The stone dikes and retaining walls in Yamaguchi, Japan, where I often visit, are the highest and most extensive in Japan. They were constructed in stages between 1333 and 1600. (See the photos of this on my Mizuno Visit CD-ROM, July 1 shots.) In the last generation, with the decline of agriculture, many of the walls have been abandoned. After 10 years or so, the forest overwhelms them and breaks them apart, the way it breaks apart the Cambodian Angkor Wat temples. You get a pile of rocks sliding down the hill instead of a retaining wall. In other words, people have been beating back the forces of nature there without letting up for more than 600 years, despite wars, pestilence, and so on. In industrial societies, per capita consumption is amazingly high: about 100 to 200 gallons per day, as I noted. A lot of this goes into industry, which can cut back consumption fairly cheaply. In the U.S., waste water recycling projects are the best method of reducing consumption, in my opinion. In southern California, advanced municipal waste water treatment plants now output water which is cleaner than mother nature's original product. That's an amazing achievement when you consider all the glop that gets into the water in places like Orange County. Water is a fascinating subject. It is a big political brouhaha at the moment here in Georgia, which is fighting with the neighboring states over water rights. If they would stop fighting and invest in California-style waste water reclamation projects and Israeli-style irrigation-at-the-roots, the problems and shortages would go away. See today's Atl. newspaper for the latest: http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/newsatlanta/lanier.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:10:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18316; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:09:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:09:00 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: HV Circuit Safety Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:20:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20000228202028484.AAA259 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"X-6zN1.0.6U4.RNjku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Knuke > I love your stories, please keep them up. >Hank I thank you, kindly! I won't overdo it though, I know its not a writing club. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:22:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07727; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:17:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:17:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <03b701bf8231$0b5b3b80$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000228193144859.AAA247 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:15:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"2YFhl1.0.Tu1.XVjku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 11:31 AM Knuke writes: [Snip] > > First of all, I take it that the O3 molecule is more tightly bound than that > of the H2O2. I also understand that the CF cells and Dr. Rusek's cell are > trying to accomplish two completely different goals. The CF cells are, very > simply put, trying to get Hydrogen into the cathode lattice to generate a > fusion reaction and heat, whereas the Rusek cell is merely trying to Oxidize > the anode and taking the electrons in the process. Exactly. You are oxidizing (burning) 54 pounds of Aluminum with 102 pounds of peroxide: 3 H2O2 (102 Lbs) + 2 Al (54 Lbs) ----> 2 Al(OH)3 (156 Lbs) + x kw-hr of Electricity It takes 6 pounds of "fixed" H2, and 96 pounds of pure O2 to make the H2O2, and it is a one-shot battery at best. Very expensive with scrap Al $.70/lb) ! :-) > > I'm wondering if I took Al sheets from beercans, perhaps even heating them > up a bit, and pounding table salt into the sheets, if that would help the > reaction in air as opposed to having an electrolyte. You can make hydrogen by putting aluminum in a solution of NaOH (DRANO) and water at ~ 130 F and all you have to do is keep adding water and Aluminum: 6 H2O ( 108 Lbs) + 2 Al (54 Lbs) ----> 2 Al(OH)3 (156 Lbs) + 3 H2 (6 Lbs) Then burn the H2 in an ICE or a Fuel cell. But it would be more cost effective to sell the beercans at a recycling center an buy some gasoline with your income. :-) > > I read the Rusek paper for the third time, and wanted to make some > corrections to what I reported earlier. First of all the reaction byproduct > is Aluminum Hydroxide, not Aluminum Oxide. Right. > > Rusek is also calling the reaction a "half cell" reaction or redux reaction, > in that he doesn't think that the Na or the K take part in the reaction. > Both the Al (reducing agent) and H2O2 (oxidizing agent) form a redux > couple. The equations that he has are as follows: > > Anode: Al + 4OH- -----> Al + 2H2O + 3e- > Cathode: H2O2 + 2e- -----> 2OH- > Overall reaction: 2Al + 3H2O2 + 2OH- ------> 2AlO2- + 4H2O Ok ,but the AlO2- forms the alkali aluminate "catalyst" that makes the aluminum react with the water to form Al(OH)3 (Aluminum Hydroxide) I think he needs to look more closely at the economics of primary batteries. > Regards, Frederick > >Knuke > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 13:22:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19811; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:19:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:19:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00cc01bf8232$750ac900$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:26:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZNOQA2.0.Or4.OPkku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper wrote: > > George seems to think that I was wrong about point 4) above. George, what > did you figure the current density in Scott's Ni/H2O/K2CO3 cell to be? I > didn't come up with a figure. > Scott used a 1 cm2 piece of Ni Fibrex sheet (a felt-like material made of Ni with a high surface area) and input power at 1 to 5 watts. At a 2 volt cell voltage that would give currents from .5 to 2.5 amps. I have no way to estimate the actual surface area of the Ni Fibrex sheet, but it could be 10 to 100 times as large as the 1 cm2 given. Since all of the best results were obtained with pulsed cell operation, it seems likely to me that high current density is desirable and that the Earthtech experiment was at a low effective current density. One of the high OU examples on the BLP site gives a cell voltage of 2.4 volts during pulsed operation. If Scott could tell us the voltage across his cell at the highest power level, we could gain some insight into whether his current levels were in the right ballpark. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 13:34:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22589; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:31:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:31:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00d201bf8234$183e2760$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000224231442.00732e50 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.20000225171741.013169c0@earthtech.org> <008401bf7fee$d98ffee0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> <7p8ebsogk06rvcbptg1f6s3rsfos8ufaip@4ax.com> Subject: Re: new experiments Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:38:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"98DHT.0.tW5.Oakku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Mills has suggested in the past that the CO3-- anion seemed to just about > the right size, keeping the K+ ions the right distance apart to facilitate > Hydrino formation. Getting rid of it altogether may not therefore > necessarily improve things. - Thanks for pointing this out, I don't remember reading it on the BLP site. In any case, I don't think there is likely to be very much CO3-- around at the 650C temperatures. I will have to go back and read some of the triple carbonate cathode processing reference material I collected 25 years ago to see if it helps to interpret the likely conditions in these cells. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 13:46:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16411; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:44:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:44:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000228164353.00799c20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:43:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <00cc01bf8232$750ac900$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"L91Hi2.0.604.kmkku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: Mills isn't a marketing expert . . . In that case he should hire one. . . . and he may not want BLP to become a huge industrial manufacturer itself . . . I would not recommend that strategy. I suggested to him that he license the technology. The world is already full of giant industrial corporations which are ideally positioned to develop and manufacture his inventions. They would eat him alive if he tried to compete with them directly. <<>And why didn't NERL do a Mills-type replication? Because everyone we know who has tried, has failed.>> Mitchell Swartz has already expressed his surprise at this claim, and I imagine that Robert Bush and Reiko Notoya would be surprised, too. I said "everyone we know," not everyone we know of. I should have made the distinction clear. We have not had enough clear communication with people like Notoya to replicate. I do not believe the results published by Bush or Swartz. I do not trust their calorimetry. <> How about increasing the ratio of favorable to rude comments? There are lots of favorable things to say about Mills and BLP and their work. In my opinion, so far his failures in marketing and business strategy outweigh his successes (?) in science. Perhaps that is because I personally am more interested in business than science, and I have no interest in his theoretical claims. I could not care less whether hydrogen atoms shrink below the ground state. It makes less difference to me than the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, or last year's batting averages. On the other hand I care a great deal about energy, society, water desalination, transportation problems and stuff like that. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 16:11:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31245; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:08:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:08:32 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:19:59 -0500 Message-ID: <20000229001959890.AAA144 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"6cpl83.0.7e7._tmku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >Exactly. You are oxidizing (burning) 54 pounds of Aluminum with 102 pounds of peroxide: > >3 H2O2 (102 Lbs) + 2 Al (54 Lbs) ----> 2 Al(OH)3 (156 Lbs) + x kw-hr of Electricity > >It takes 6 pounds of "fixed" H2, and 96 pounds of pure O2 to make the H2O2, >and it is a one-shot battery at best. Very expensive with scrap Al $.70/lb) ! :-) If 1kWhr of electricity is all you get for all of that, then you are right, it would not be worth the trouble or effort. I think 1kWhr costs about $.15 here, but I don't see the bill, so I'm not exactly sure. I priced H2O2 some years back, and it wasn't cheap either, at the concentrations needed for this application (at least 10%). >You can make hydrogen by putting aluminum in a solution of NaOH (DRANO) >and water at ~ 130 F and all you have to do is keep adding water and Aluminum: > >6 H2O ( 108 Lbs) + 2 Al (54 Lbs) ----> 2 Al(OH)3 (156 Lbs) + 3 H2 (6 Lbs) > >Then burn the H2 in an ICE or a Fuel cell. But it would be more cost effective to >sell the beercans at a recycling center an buy some gasoline with your income. :-) You're right again. This method eliminates the H2O2 expense, and is much simpler, but still, it is a lot of work for very little juice. Also producing H2 in any amount takes it well out of the realm of child's play due to the volatility. You would necessarily need to have all the right (read expensive) safety gear before I would feel comfortable with it. If the electical load were constant, and the Al feed rate properly determined, it may be a possible way of making electricity for special applications in remote areas, though. If you consider that, even if you squash a beercan down pretty good, the volume of the can is quite high. If you load up your three thousand pound car with squashed beercans, and have to drive 50 miles each way to a recycling plant for a few pounds of Al, then it is not worth it. This would be a typical driving distance for people living on farms, for example. If you oxidized it first into a sludge and dried it out to a powder, then you could fit in the same space of a lot more beercans, and have the electricity to boot. Then you could take the powder in, and have it recycled. 150 lbs of powder might be worth the drive and the extra gear, as opposed to fitting only 10 lbs of partially squashed cans in your car. I guess it would depend on what they would give you for the powder too, but 2 Al(OH)3 is supposed to be recyclable. >I think he needs to look more closely at the economics of primary batteries. Well, Rusek is doing this mainly from a military rocket standpoint, so cost is not an issue for them. Evidently, the rocket launching industry has come under attack by the environmentalists because the fuels that are used for these various spy satellite delivery systems and weapons systems tests are really bad for the environment. H2O2 is a rocket propellant that has been long under investigation, and I think even used on occasion because it is considered to be more environmentally friendly. A few extra pounds of the stuff for generating electricity might not be that much of a burden under those circumstances. The fact that rockets may developed in the future armed with a dozen thermonuclear warheads, possibly having delivery hardware that may someday be made of 60% recycled material, AND having even possibly a truly renewable energy propellant is of considerable comfort to many, and certainly worth the effort and expense. I guess you could say that it is just the military's way of doing their part for the environment <8) I'm just trying to figure out a way to squeeze some extra utility out of that crazy glow discharge plasma panel, and in a way that is not overly complex, dangerous or expensive. Right now there too many unknown factors about it to make any real plans. Some real numbers would be nice, like how many foot pounds of thrust are generated per watt of input, what total volume of air is moved, at what pressure, flow rate, and what is the exact composition of the air after it has passed over the panel. I'm hoping that maybe we can get some of these numbers soon so that we can bat around some more ideas for ways that we can use it. I'd like to figure out a way to power the panel as well, a way that is not too heavy. I'm also going to continue to read up on fuel cell construction and approaches. Thanks for the economics lesson. The H2O2 cell doesn't look nearly so red hot right now. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 16:21:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25979; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:18:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:18:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000228191210.00826cd0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:12:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000228164353.00799c20 pop.mindspring.com> References: <00cc01bf8232$750ac900$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1X047.0.gL6.h1nku" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:43 PM 2/28/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mitchell Swartz has already expressed his surprise at this > claim, and I imagine that Robert Bush and Reiko Notoya would be > surprised, too. > >I said "everyone we know," not everyone we know of. I should have made the >distinction clear. We have not had enough clear communication with people >like Notoya to replicate. I do not believe the results published by Bush or >Swartz. I do not trust their calorimetry. Whichever Bush you mean, both of them AND JET Energy Technology do fine calorimetry. The put-down above is from continually inaccurate 'pseudo-kilowatt'-Jed. Having put our data/papers through peer-review, AND having uncovered several of Rothwell's goofs (to which he remains oblivious), the above is saliently simply another projection from Jed. Furthermore, having visited CETI this year (probably more of that in the next CFTimes), it is unfortunate that 'pseudo-kilowatt'-Jed sacked the company's reputation. LOL. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 21:39:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07074; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:31:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:31:06 -0800 Message-ID: <20000229053103.28670.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:31:03 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Water recycling To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Kz57e3.0.Pk1.Pcrku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > In the U.S., waste water recycling projects are the best method of reducing > consumption, in my opinion. In southern California, advanced municipal > waste water treatment plants now output water which is cleaner than mother > nature's original product. That's an amazing achievement when you consider > all the glop that gets into the water in places like Orange County. You and I know that recycled waste water is cleaner than mother nature's, but you can't convince the public. We have a waste water recycling plant near where I work here in San Diego. Its output is used only to irrigate landscaping, golf courses, etc, which requires tearing up the roads and laying a second system of water distribution pipes. It's expensive, and they can't get enough businesses and other large users to sign up. (To its credit, my employer, General Atomics, does use the recycled water on its landscape.) This way the water would reach many more people through existing distribution pipes. San Diego certainly needs to become less dependent on imported water. The San Diego water district wanted to expand the customer base by putting recycled water into the reservoirs, from which it would be treated again before going into the public water distribution system. This way the water would reach many more people through existing distribution pipes. However, a local politician who opposed the project coined the phrase, "toilet to tap." As you can guess, logic lost out against emotion. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 21:49:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12558; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:47:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:47:02 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Black Hole evaporation Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:46:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA12519 Resent-Message-ID: <"4-stD1.0.443.Mrrku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Does anyone have a formula for calculating the lifetime of microscopic black holes (when they "evaporate"), based upon initial mass? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 05:05:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA16740; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:04:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:04:02 -0800 Message-ID: <040a01bf8258$809bf2a0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000229001959890.AAA144 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:57:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"RQm0k1.0.U54.2Fyku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Knuke wrote: [Snip} >You would necessarily need to have all the right > (read expensive) safety gear before I would feel comfortable with it. If > the electical load were constant, and the Al feed rate properly determined, > it may be a possible way of making electricity for special applications in > remote areas, though. Not that bad. A sealed Iron (SS) vessel with Aluminum cans in a SS screenwire basket at the top and a way to raise the aqueous (K+) + AlOx- solution catalyst up to immerse it so that it can react: 6 H2O (10.8 pounds) + Al (5.4 pounds) ----> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2 (0.6 pounds) That will give you about 30,000 Btu if you burn the H2 in a ICE, or ~ 7 kw-hr in a fuel cell. > > If you consider that, even if you squash a beercan down pretty good, the > volume of the can is quite high. If you load up your three thousand pound > car with squashed beercans, and have to drive 50 miles each way to a > recycling plant for a few pounds of Al, then it is not worth it. The beercans are gotten along the highway (kind of a pay as you go) situation. Terry Blanton informs me that along Georgia highways there are enough beercans to fuel a convoy. :- > If you oxidized it first into a sludge and dried it out to a powder, then you > could fit in the same space of a lot more beercans, and have the electricity > to boot. Nope, you gotta have wheels and automobility. >Then you could take the powder in, and have it recycled. Nope again Al(OH)3 is cheaper than dirt, except in MaaLox. > 150 lbs of powder might be worth the drive and the extra gear, as opposed to fitting > only 10 lbs of partially squashed cans in your car. I guess it would depend > on what they would give you for the powder too, but 2 Al(OH)3 is supposed to > be recyclable. Yes, But: 2 Al(OH)3 + Heat ---> Al2O3 + 3 H2O which requires umpteen kw-hrs to get back to 2 Al + 1.5 O2 using the Hall Process. That is why there are two semitrailers parked about 3/4 miles down the road paying top dollar for beercans that can be recycled at a fraction of the energy cost. > > Well, Rusek is doing this mainly from a military rocket standpoint, so cost > is not an issue for them. Apparently not. >Evidently, the rocket launching industry has come > under attack by the environmentalists because the fuels that are used for > these various spy satellite delivery systems and weapons systems tests are > really bad for the environment. So is a Aluminum Refinery. >H2O2 is a rocket propellant that has been > long under investigation, and I think even used on occasion because it is > considered to be more environmentally friendly. H2O2 is made from the hydrogen from 2 H2O + Coke + heat ----> CO2 + 2 H2 not too friendly environment-wise. It was used with Ethanol for the German V1-V2 rockets in WWII. >The fact that rockets may developed in the future > armed with a dozen thermonuclear warheads, possibly having delivery hardware > that may someday be made of 60% recycled material, ROFL! RECYCLED MUNITIONS, a GREEN WAR! :-) > > I'm also going to continue to read up on fuel cell construction and > approaches. Thanks for the economics lesson. The H2O2 cell doesn't look > nearly so red hot right now. If only it was, Kunke, ALL of these things can be powered with Solar-Biomass. Nature's recycling system. Best Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 05:18:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA21319; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:17:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:17:39 -0800 Message-ID: <03eb01bf8243$a29114e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:28:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"SJuhT2.0.0D5.pRyku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you go, Knuke. I had to dig out my copy of Kahlenberg; Outlines of Chemistry; 1909 (Revised 1920) to get these equations for you. 1, AlCl3 + KOH ---> 3 KCl + Al(OH)3 2, Al2(CO3)3 + 3 H2O ---> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 CO2 3, Al(OH)3 + 3 KOH ---> K3AlO3 + 3 H2O 4, Al(OH)3 + KOH ---> KAlO2 + 2 H2O 5, KAlO2 + 2 H2O <---> Al(OH)3 + KOH As far as having a dry onboard Oxygen Storage compound: Potassium Peroxide (K2O2) or Sodium Peroxide (Na2O2)made by air oxidation of the metals. 2 K2O2 + 2 H2O ----> 4 KOH + O2 or 2 Na2O2 + 2 H2O ----> 4 NaOH + O2 If you react the peroxides with an acid (even Carbonic, 2 (H+) + CO3= )it will make hydrogen peroxide H2O2, and the Carbonate K2CO3. Have Fun. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 05:28:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA24709; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:27:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:27:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000229082659.0079e400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:26:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Water recycling In-Reply-To: <20000229053103.28670.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BuUsx1.0.-16.yayku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: >You and I know that recycled waste water is cleaner than mother nature's, but >you can't convince the public. . . . > >However, a local politician who opposed the project coined the phrase, >"toilet to tap." As you can guess, logic lost out against emotion. I am a little surprised, but I guess I should not be. Anyone knows that the cities along the Mississippi, the Chattahoochee and other large rivers are drinking one-another's waste water. Where do people think it comes from? One of the best pollution control measures I know is to pass a law forcing factories and cities to use their own waste water. That is, you force them to put the inlet pipe downstream from the outlet. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 05:44:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA29973; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:43:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 05:43:31 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:55:04 -0500 Message-ID: <20000229135504781.AAA81 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"KUkGs3.0.EK7.3qyku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here you go, Knuke. > >I had to dig out my copy of Kahlenberg; Outlines of Chemistry; >1909 (Revised 1920) to get these equations for you. Thanks Fred! I don't have any chem refs down here in print form. You're a big help. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 06:30:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA11152; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:30:05 -0800 Message-ID: <38BBD8BD.8514B285 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:33:33 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? References: <20000229001959890.AAA144 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <040a01bf8258$809bf2a0$6f441d26@fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GMhRx.0.Ak2.iVzku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Terry Blanton informs me that along Georgia highways there are enough beercans > to fuel a convoy. :- They're not all mine, however. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 07:29:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02930; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:28:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:28:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000229102744.0079e700 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:27:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? In-Reply-To: <20000229001959890.AAA144 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YVHEX1.0.ej.7M-ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >I think 1kWhr costs about $.15 >here, but I don't see the bill, so I'm not exactly sure. It is cheaper than that last time I checked. In GA and FL it runs about $0.08 per KWH for consumers, and about $0.05 for industry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 09:05:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17390; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:02:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:02:49 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:14:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000229171420406.AAA247 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"4ibVo2.0.dF4.vk_ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >Not that bad. A sealed Iron (SS) vessel with Aluminum cans in a SS screenwire basket at >the top and a way to raise the aqueous (K+) + AlOx- solution catalyst up to immerse it so that >it can react: > >6 H2O (10.8 pounds) + Al (5.4 pounds) ----> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2 (0.6 pounds) > >That will give you about 30,000 Btu if you burn the H2 in a ICE, or ~ 7 kw-hr in a fuel cell. That's not as bad as I thought. I could use a small version of the above to generate the H2 as a torch fuel for some applications too, I suppose. It would be a regular Hydro/Oxy torch as opposed to a Brown's Gas torch, but it could still do soldering/brazing jobs, etc. without electricity. In some situations, that might be handy to know how to do. We are also forgetting that the one byproduct of the burning of H2 is pure water, so it still has some possible apps in weird times and places. The Al + Drano mix would probably still work with undrinkable water, and burning the resultant H2 would make drinkable water. Used regularly in a fuel cell, the amount of water generated could add up to enough to live on maybe. Distilled water goes for anywhere between $.50 and $1.00 a gallon. It's always good to know this kind of stuff. Anyhow, I'm still keeping the beercans for the present. Around here, they don't buy them from you, they just take them, and say thank you for caring enough about the environment to drive them out to us. There are outfits that will pick them up, but they charge for the service on a monthly basis. Thanks again, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 09:12:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20404; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:10:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:10:48 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:22:16 -0500 Message-ID: <20000229172216906.AAA235 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"5EWsg3.0.g-4.Ns_ku" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >It is cheaper than that last time I checked. In GA and FL it runs about >$0.08 per KWH for consumers, and about $0.05 for industry. > >- Jed You're probably right, and either way, fuel cells do not look economical for most residences of any normal places. I go to a lot of abnormal places however, often where there is no electrical grid, but somehow there is always beer... Thanks, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 12:20:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA23055; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:18:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:18:38 -0800 Message-ID: <38BC2A67.B3D3D585 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:21:59 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Current and near future R. L. Mills presentations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZbR9G1.0.8e5.Tc2lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 29, 2000 Vortex, As mentioned earlier, Dr. Peter Gluck has a high speed access to the Internet in his new commercial Internet service career. He also has a high interest and support for success in the latest happening with Randell L. Mills' BLP enterprise. Peter mentioned that Mills indicated he would be at the five day (Sunday to Thursday) National ACS Meeting to be held in San Francisco near the end of March, 2000. Search of the ACS web site revealed nothing until the technical program was released on February 28th, 2000. I searched during the day on the 28th so it must have been posted late. I received two abstract copies of the Mills' presentations this morning from Peter. Revisiting the ACS web site revealed that the technical program details have indeed been posted. Searching the author of papers to be presented under the Mills name at the ACS Meeting revealed five papers to be presented on Sunday and Monday. The respective abstracts can be viewed and printed. >From what I can make out of the titles, it seems to be a repeat of the regional ACS Meeting presentation held last October. Strangely, the one Monday presentation seems to be a repeat of one already made on Sunday (#303). The scheduling and abstracts can be obtained by punching in 'Mills' in: <> The second item sent over by peter: The 11th Annual U.S. Hydrogen Meeting is being held today <> in Vienna, VA. Mills, one among several Poster presenters, is displaying papers on the various findings of the BLP experiments --- something that probably are not too different from what is found at his BLP web site. Thanks, Peter. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 12:48:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00924; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:45:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:45:14 -0800 Message-ID: <38BC30A5.239CA73F ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:48:37 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Correct ACS author search address Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"azU8X3.0.HE.P_2lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 29, 2000 Vortex, It seems the author search address listed earlier was incorrect. The truncated address on the printout was wrong. It should be: <> I hope it is correct this time. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 13:12:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10615; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:09:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:09:12 -0800 Message-ID: <38BC3642.6A3847AA ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:12:34 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Corrected & checked ACS author search address Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AEO1G2.0.hb2.tL3lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 29, 2000 Vortex, Ooops, wrong again. The final correct address is; It should be: <> -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 13:16:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15706; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:13:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:13:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:12:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <00cc01bf8232$750ac900$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0dj1B.0.Kr3.yP3lu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:26 PM 2/28/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >If Scott could tell us the voltage across his cell at the highest power level, >we could >gain some insight into whether his current levels were in the right ballpark. Once again (groan) my record keeping is not what it could be. The original huge data set for that experiment died with the hard drive it was recorded on. However, I still have my notebook notes for the experiment. However, there is precious little information available. Beside the note where I initially applied 1 watt of Pin to the cell, there is a note that the current was .15amps. That means the voltage was 6.67 V. There is an astonishing absence of notes about cell current during the higher power part of the run. Why write it down?...everything was being recorded to disk!....:( Finally, at the last power plateau, which was about 0.75 watts, I noted ~0.11 A, which corresponds to a cell voltage of 6.8 volts. Regarding current density, despite the high total surface area of Ni Fibrex, it is my belief that, in an electrolysis cell, the stuff behaves as if it's area was just the sheet size. In other words, I don't think the E field's penetrate into all the nooks and crannies in the fibrex material so that part of its area is not effective in the cell. If that's right, then even at my 110 mA current level, I had an effective current density on the Ni of 55 mA/cm^2....much higher than Mills recommended, I think (wasn't it 1-2 mA/cm^2?). Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 16:17:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08974; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:14:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:14:19 -0800 Message-ID: <004f01bf8314$10e4adf0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:21:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"jOZXE2.0.uB2.Q36lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > Regarding current density, despite the high total surface area of Ni > Fibrex, it is my belief that, in an electrolysis cell, the stuff behaves as > if it's area was just the sheet size. In other words, I don't think the E > field's penetrate into all the nooks and crannies in the fibrex material so > that part of its area is not effective in the cell. If that's right, then > even at my 110 mA current level, I had an effective current density on the > Ni of 55 mA/cm^2....much higher than Mills recommended, I think (wasn't it > 1-2 mA/cm^2?). - I checked one of the experiments in Mills book. The peak current at 36% duty cycle was 3.3 mA/cm2 and peak voltage was 1.9 volts. It looks like Tom Stolper was right, either your current was too high, the Ni cathode was not clean, or both problems were present.. There are a couple of paragraphs devoted to his cleaning procedure, which seems to be aimed at eliminating organic surface contamination. I could fax a copy of the page with the cleaning procedure if you are interested. Mills appeared to consider the cleaning procedure very important. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 18:01:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07242; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:57:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:57:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <044a01bf82d4$ca9e1aa0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Biomass-Solar-Wind Power. Was Autoinoization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:47:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tlQ3p2.0.ym1.Qa7lu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Sez: > >Electricity in Ga and Fla, about $0.08/kw-hr and $0.05/kw-hr for industrial. > Now that Wheeling of Power, where you can buy your power from whomever offers the best deal has opened up for residential as well as commercial consumers, look for a cheaper price. This opens up a market for cowchips to kilowatts (potentially 4 Billion Kw-hr anally) as well as solar and wind "farms" that can feed the Grid. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 18:22:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08648; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:20:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:20:59 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Biomass-Solar-Wind Power. Was Autoinoization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:32:23 -0500 Message-ID: <20000301023223781.AAA246 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"oQpzE2.0.-62.8w7lu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred typos: >This opens up a market for cowchips to kilowatts (potentially 4 Billion Kw-hr anally) as well >as solar and wind "farms" that can feed the Grid. > >Regards, Frederick Fred that's the best typo I've seen since the Chicago Sun-Tribune printed in its movie listings You Light Up My Wife instead of the movie title You Light Up My Life. Both would have made it through the spellcheckers, too. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 19:23:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05217; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:18:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:18:22 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 14:17:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3n2pbsg98lp5iake4pb1dtir32kcdblc7i 4ax.com> References: <20000229001959890.AAA144 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <040a01bf8258$809bf2a0$6f441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <040a01bf8258$809bf2a0$6f441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA05172 Resent-Message-ID: <"B0bdZ.0.NH1.-l8lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:57:50 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >>Evidently, the rocket launching industry has come >> under attack by the environmentalists because the fuels that are used for >> these various spy satellite delivery systems and weapons systems tests are >> really bad for the environment. > >So is a Aluminum Refinery. I have been wondering if it really needs to be. (I suspect that like most industry they just tend to dump that which they have no immediate use for). [snip] >H2O2 is made from the hydrogen from 2 H2O + Coke + heat ----> CO2 + 2 H2 >not too friendly environment-wise. It was used with Ethanol for the German V1-V2 rockets >in WWII. Perhaps you would care to provide the reaction? This one is beyond me. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 21:13:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24846; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:11:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:11:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000229231251.0073dde4 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:12:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <004f01bf8314$10e4adf0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"VtAAx1.0.846.1QAlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:21 PM 2/29/00 -0500, George Holz wrote: >There are a couple of paragraphs devoted to his cleaning >procedure, which seems to be aimed at eliminating organic surface >contamination. I could fax a copy of the page with the cleaning procedure >if you are interested. Mills appeared to consider the cleaning procedure >very important. Please do. A while back I purchased some large sheets of Ni for a future experiment with a large area cathode (so that ~2 mA/cm^2 would amount to a sizeable input power). Maybe this'll get me going on that experiment. Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 29 22:35:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00960; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:34:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:34:13 -0800 Message-ID: <20000301063410.10116.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:34:10 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"7tleY3.0.uE.adBlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>H2O2 is made from the hydrogen from 2 H2O + Coke + heat ----> CO2 + 2H2 >>not too friendly environment-wise. It was used with Ethanol for the German >>V1-V2 rockets in WWII. Amazing how misinformation propagates. The German V2 used ethanol and liquid oxygen. The V1 was powered by an air-breathing pulse jet. I think used gasoline for fuel. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com