From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 00:04:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15605; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:56:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:56:33 -0800 Message-ID: <047601bf830f$bea51060$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Supercritical CO2 Remediation of Nuclear Wastes? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:49:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FGL-l1.0.lp3.mqClu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To; Vortex Based on a pet CF/OU- Fission theory, it might be possible to effect transmutation of a radioisotope using Supercritical CO2 (aqueous) for transmutations: Pressurizing a solution containing Cs137 Chloride with CO2 Might create the fractional orbit Quasineutron formed by uptake of a 0.2 ev Negatrino by a Proton or Deuteron (P*) or (D*) made available by the Carbonic Acid. Then: P* + 55Cs137 ----> 56Ba138 (stable) + Negatrino + 9.12 Mev or P* + 55Cs137 ----> Fission fragments + Negatrino + 9.12 Mev Since the Negatrino returns to it's rest radius of ~ 7.2 nanometers when emitted it should dissipate the 9.12 mev in a path length of a few millimeters or less, and eventually annihilate with a Positrino emitting 0.2 ev photons. Any Bets? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 05:38:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12773; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:37:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:37:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301083657.0079ceb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:36:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> References: <00cc01bf8232$750ac900$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8MZrR.0.S73.FqHlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Once again (groan) my record keeping is not what it could be. The original >huge data set for that experiment died with the hard drive it was recorded >on. However, I still have my notebook notes for the experiment. However, >there is precious little information available. That's awful! Computers can be treacherous. I strongly recommend write-once CDs. That's CD-R, not CD-RW, which I have found somewhat unreliable. A USB CD-R drive at PC Connection sells for $250, and an internal IDE version for $180. The only drawback about these things is they are slow. For fast daily backups of everything on your disk, I recommend a USB connected LeCie 20 GB hard drive, for $369. You can easily unplug it and take it home, or plug it into a portable computer. It is the best backup device I have ever used, and I have tried maybe a dozen. If you have more than 20 GB of data that has to be refreshed or backed up daily, you should talk to NASA I guess. The CD-Rs I crank out using the Adaptec program can be read by any kind of PC, and the music ones can be played on any player, but unfortunately Mac computers cannot read the data disks. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 05:45:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA14832; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:44:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:44:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:44:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <004f01bf8314$10e4adf0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JO8B62.0.fd3.IxHlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: >Mills appeared to consider the cleaning procedure >very important. I think every electrochemist would concur. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 05:56:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA19162; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:55:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:55:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301085453.007a16c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:54:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Water war continues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"23EfI3.0.Kh4.15Ilu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The tri-state dispute over water I mentioned yesterday is in the headlines again today: http://www.accessatlanta.com/news/2000/03/01/waterwar_ajc.html If we are fighting over water here, in the S.E. US, with all the rain we get, imagine how bad things must be in arid countries and the Middle East. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 08:21:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04231; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:18:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:18:22 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:29:55 -0500 Message-ID: <20000301162955343.AAA296 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"TO89a2.0.z11.DBKlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael S. writes: >Amazing how misinformation propagates. Quite a lot of it is taught in schools, Mike. That is why we are still driving IC engine powered vehicles. Fuel cells are over 200 years old, and are just now being funded as energy sources. Electrostatic devices are over 100 years old and are just now being considered as propulsion devices and fusion reactors. Alternating current is around 100 years old, but the inventor's name was almost successfully buried by the historians. Much of the history of WWII, the Korean Conflict and all such euphemisms for large, organized killing efforts were buried, as well as the details of the technologies that were used. I think what you meant to say was that the references that you have read have led you to believe that bla, bla bla, etc., because unless you were actually there, it is almost impossible for you to know. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 09:27:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29953; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:26:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:26:19 -0800 Message-ID: <38BD52CA.E8942576 cwnet.com> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:26:49 -0800 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Garbo-inos? Answer delayed to 2003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HtSPL.0.tJ7.xALlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Source: Stanford University (http://www.stanford.edu) Date: Posted 3/1/2000 Garbo-Esque Neutrinos May Challenge Standard Model "I want to be left alone." – Greta Garbo in the 1932 movie "Grand Hotel" Shakespeare said that all the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players. But to Stanford physicist Stanley Wojcicki, all the world's a laboratory, and its star player is the neutrino, a subatomic particle that could rightly be called the Greta Garbo of the physics world, for it hardly ever interacts. In 2003, Wojcicki and about 250 scientists from 30 institutions representing five countries will shoot neutrinos from an accelerator at Fermilab in Batavia, Ill., to an underground detector in a former mine 730 kilometers away in Soudan, Minn. The path of the commuter neutrinos is entirely underground, where they will interact with nothing. On Feb. 20 at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington, D.C., Wojcicki spoke about long-baseline neutrino experiments, which are providing the first crack in the Standard Model, the prevailing theory that describes elementary particles and forces. Right now physicists think everything is made of 12 fundamental constituents – six called quarks, six called leptons. Three of the leptons are neutrinos. (Of the three particles taught in high-school physics – electrons, protons, and neutrons – only the electron is fundamental. It is a lepton, whereas protons and neutrons are each made of three quarks.) The long-baseline experiments will explore whether neutrinos have zero mass, as the Standard Model says, and whether lepton number – a property thought to be immutable like positive or negative charge – is absolutely conserved. Recent Japanese experiments using neutrinos produced by high-energy cosmic rays suggest that neutrinos do have mass. "If these results are verified, neutrino physics would be the first area to indicate violation of the Standard Model because this theory incorporates both lepton conservation and zero neutrino mass," Wojcicki said."So you have to modify the Standard Model to accommodate these kinds of things." If the experiments reveal, for instance, that neutrinos have mass, however tiny, that discovery will force physicists to paint a new picture of the universe. "It's very exciting from that point of view that you really may be probing very, very new physics," Wojcicki said. "You really may have your hands on a smoking gun, and if you pursue it, you can really learn more about the murder, if you like." Wolfgang Pauli first proposed the existence of the neutrino in 1930 to explain an apparent nonconservation of energy when radioactive particles decayed. "I have committed the cardinal sin of a theorist," he is reputed to have said. "I made a prediction which can never be tested, ever, because this particle is so weakly interacting that it may never be seen." But 26 years later American scientists Frederick Reines and Clyde Cowan detected the first neutrinos. The next year, Italian physicist Bruno Pontecorvo theorized that if different species of neutrinos exist, they might be able to oscillate back and forth between the different species. In 1962, scientists from Columbia University and Brookhaven National Laboratory demonstrated the existence of two species of neutrinos, and a third was found at Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC) in 1975. Experiments at the European physics laboratory CERN and at Stanford in 1989 showed that only three species of light (or massless) neutrinos can exist: electron, muon and tau. Neutrino oscillations transmute one kind of neutrino, such as muon, into another kind, such as electron or tau. But for oscillations to occur, two phenomena must be true: neutrinos must have mass, and lepton number cannot be absolutely conserved. To solve the mystery of whether neutrinos have mass, physicists performed sophisticated measurements, but all they got was an upper limit. "So we know that neutrinos have a very low mass, if they do have a mass," said Wojcicki. Regarding whether lepton number (charge) is conserved, neutrinos have no charge that physicists can measure. Here's where the story resembles a detective finding a smoking gun at a crime scene and using deductive logic to reconstruct the murder. When electron neutrinos interact, they make electrons, which do have a charge. Similarly, muon neutrinos interact to make muons, and tau neutrinos interact to make taus. "Knowing what is the lepton in the final state tells you about what kind of neutrino was there initially," explained Wojcicki. This is all well and good but does not explain why physicists need to shoot neutrinos through the curvature of the Earth from one state to another, as in the Illinois-Minnesota experiment, or from one country to another, as in a similar Switzerland-Italy experiment that CERN will conduct in 2005. (Japan is currently conducting a modest accelerator experiment with a more limited goal of determining whether scientists can observe any oscillations at all.) "We really want to do very precise, quantitative studies to measure the mass difference, measure the mode of oscillations, what is the final state, and all of this," Wojcicki said. To do that, scientists look at the probability that one type of neutrino will change into another type. The probability of that transmutation oscillates like a wave, and it increases as the distance grows between where the particle is created and where it is detected. It also depends on the difference in mass between the first type of neutrino and the second. Since the probability can be anywhere from zero to one, if the difference in mass is small (as it would be if particles have little or no mass), the distance between particle birthplace and detector – called the baseline – must be large. Though Wojcicki's research base is SLAC in California, he travels to Illinois's Fermilab for his neutrinos. His project, called MINOS, for Main Injector Neutrino Oscillation Search, requires more neutrinos than SLAC can produce. "You need to have a very intense neutrino beam because first of all neutrinos do not interact very much, and secondly you'll be detecting them very, very far away," Wojcicki said. "It's like a beam of flashlight where the farther you go, the fainter is the light." Accelerators allow scientists to pulse the beam. "It's like a pulsar that emits bursts of energy on a periodic basis," Wojcicki explained. So while the background noise from natural radiation sources, such as cosmic rays, will be constant, the neutrino signal will be pulsed from the direction of Fermilab. The underground location of the detector shields it from cosmic rays, reducing the background significantly. "The way it works is the accelerator accelerates protons to higher energy," Wojcicki said. "Then protons are allowed to strike the target. They make short-lived particles called pions. You make a beam of the pions, and they travel through a vacuum pipe about half a mile long. As they travel, some of them will decay, and they will decay into neutrinos." Another class of long-baseline experiments employs nuclear reactors to study electron neutrinos. (Whereas accelerators produce muon neutrinos with ease, reactors are a good source of electron neutrinos.) With reactor-generated neutrinos, the detector need only be as far as one kilometer away, as these neutrinos have a much lower energy than their accelerator siblings. (Energy is inversely proportional to the odds that one kind of neutrino will transmute into another kind, so the lower the energy, the shorter the baseline.) Stanford Associate Professor Giorgio Gratta is working on an experiment in Japan that will look at neutrinos from all reactors in Japan that, serendipitously, happen to be far enough away from a central detector to be useful (most are more than 100 kilometers away). The cost of the MINOS program is about $120 to $130 million, according to Wojcicki, with about $70 million to build the Illinois infrastructure and equipment and about $50 million for the Minnesota detector. But unlike a single-purpose experiment, such as a clinical trial designed to find out if a specific drug is effective in treating a disease, long-baseline experiments may satisfy many goals. "The simplest measurement, which is just to look at the muons and compare the rates at the far detector and the near detector, we can do in a few months or a year," Wojcicki said. "More sophisticated measurements – the detailed, quantitative measurements, or looking for the different modes – may take three, five years." Although Wojcicki called his research "very, very basic," it has spawned a practical application: a new technique for making inexpensive scintillator, or material that produces light when charged particles pass through it and that is used extensively in medical research today. His experiment will use an unprecedented 250 tons. New knowledge of neutrinos also may benefit scientists in other fields. For example, it could help cosmologists understand the evolution of supernovae. In May, neutrino physicists from around the world will meet in Monterey, Calif., to discuss experiments with even longer baselines – ones that join one continent to another. Such experiments face considerable technical challenges, such as building a very intense proton source, creating targets that can tolerate intense beams, and concentrating beam particles so that they can be guided around a storage ring. Wojcicki is official spokesperson for the MINOS project. Of the 250 people involved worldwide, most have doctoral or advanced engineering degrees. While only 15 are graduate students, Wojcicki expects that number to triple in the next two years because the scheduled date to begin data collection makes the involvement of graduate students, who usually stay four to six years, appropriate at that time. Stanford researchers are largely involved in the project's software issues and include senior research associate George Irwin and postdoctoral researchers Robert Hatcher, Larry Wai and Carlos Arroyo. Wojcicki also has worked with several undergraduate students, including Brad Patterson, who is working on an honors thesis. "There's a strong educational component in addition to the research objective," Wojcicki said. Editor's Note: The original news release can be found at http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/00/000223neutrinos.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 09:38:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28270; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:36:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:36:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004701bf83a4$5f3ef560$25637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com><3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430@earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:34:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"eiWy91.0.Zv6.xJLlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, I recently installed NERL's used Millipore deionizer that provides water with up to 18 Mohm-cm resistivity. It starts with distilled water, then runs it through 5 stages of filtering, requiring about an hour to reach maximum resistivity. The manual states that the deionized water must be continually refiltered to be available at the optimal state. Mizuno has some model of Millipore deionizer. Although he thought that distilled water would work as well, I don't think he tried it. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 8:44 AM Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos > George Holz wrote: > > >Mills appeared to consider the cleaning procedure > >very important. > > I think every electrochemist would concur. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 10:07:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04408; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:04:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:04:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <04a001bf833c$22e6f120$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000229001959890.AAA144 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <040a01bf8258$809bf2a0$6f441d26@fjsparber> <3n2pbsg98lp5iake4pb1dtir32kcdblc7i@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:07:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"CQQaU3.0.o41.vkLlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 7:17 PM Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? > [snip] > >H2O2 is made from the hydrogen from 2 H2O + Coke + heat ----> CO2 + 2 H2 > >not too friendly environment-wise. It was used with Ethanol for the German V1-V2 rockets > >in WWII. > > Perhaps you would care to provide the reaction? This one is beyond me. I took a shortcut for hydrogen production: 1, H2O + C + Heat ----> CO + H2 2, Shift reaction: CO + H2O ----> CO2 + H2 3, Hydrogenate Quinone to Hydroquinone 4, Aerate the Hydroquinone ----> H2O2 5, repeat step 3 AFAIK this is the simplest/cheapest commercial process to produce large quantities of H2O2. Regards, Frederick > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 10:07:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04396; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:04:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:04:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <04b001bf8343$c4aec9e0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: Fw: Biomass-Solar-Wind Power. Was Autoinoization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:02:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"bNNce2.0.W41.rkLlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke, > > Owed to the Spell Chequer > > Eye halve a spelling chequer -- > It came with my pea see. > It Plane lee marques four my revue > Miss steaks aye can knot sea. > Eye strike a key and type a word > End weight four it two say > Weather eye am wrong or write, > It shows me straight a weigh! > As soon as a mist ache is maid > It nose bee fore two long, > And eye can try to put it rite - > It's rare lea ever wrong. > Eye ran this poem threw it, > Im shore your pleased to no > Its letter perfect awl the weigh > My checker tolled me sew. > Sores Unknown > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 11:08:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00663; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:06:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:06:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301135354.007a3e50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 13:53:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <004701bf83a4$5f3ef560$25637dc7 computer> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wj2WI1.0.HA.WeMlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: >Mizuno has >some model of Millipore deionizer. Although he thought that distilled water >would work as well, I don't think he tried it. I am sure he did not. He is rather cavalier about suggesting lax procedures to us and to Scott Little which he himself would not do. Electrochemists take steps like this out of habit, even if they feel -- or tell others -- it probably isn't necessary. A well-trained pilot running through a pre-flight check does not expect to find anything abnormal. He knows he could probably crank up and take off in a few minutes with no harm done, but he goes through the rituals and does it by the book anyway. Russian pilots, on the other hand, used to crank up DC3 motors in the dead of winter, wait five seconds to see if they would stop, and then fly straight down the runway into the air, according to my father and others who had the dubious pleasure of flying with them during WWII. They would reach flying altitude in about five seconds too: 50 to 100 feet the whole way, to avoid indiscriminate antiaircraft fire from both sides. Sometimes you wonder how they managed to win, but I digress . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 12:19:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27127; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:17:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:17:07 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:28:35 -0500 Message-ID: <20000301202835828.AAA295 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"be6XO3.0.cd6.1hNlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{This is an interesting subject. Since none of us were there, we have >only the written literature on the subject, plus any logical insights that >we can come up with, to decide how the V-2 operated. While hydrogen >perodide (H2O2) is an excellent oxidizer, and could have been used in the >V-2 to burn the ethanol, the only references I could find showing the >layout of the V-2 show, from top to bottom, (a) the warhead, (b) control >electronics, (c) the fuel tank, (d) liquid oxygen tank, (e) a much smaller >hydrogen peroxide "auxillary fuel" tank, (f) a similarly sized potassium >permanganate tank, (g) a steam turbine and fuel pumps, (h) the rocket motor >and exhaust nozzle. According to the associated writeup, the hydrogen >peroxide/potassium permanganate system was used to drive the turbine, which >pumped the ethanol and lox into the combustion chamber. [*Encyclopedia >Americana*, 1960 edition, Vol. R, pg. 599] --MJ}*** There are still some of the original developers still around probably. Some of them probably even live in some of these old folks camps that are popping up all over Florida. The daughter of one of the original developers of the magnetron was a good friend of mine for many years. I walked her out of a coup in Tunisia in 87, and did a bunch of other wild things with her. Her dad lives in one of these places just South of me. I've gone boozing with him a few times, and he has led a fascinating life. After the war, there was a big grab for all the V2 brains, and we ended up with a lot of them. They are really the only ones that could tell you if the drawings are correct, and even then, they would most likely be disinclined to give all the details. The only other resource might be the national historical archives. Another couple of friends of mine wrote a book called Letters to Onkel Adolf, which I don't think ever got published, but it was based on letters from children to Hitler. The letters got seized after the war, and are stored in the US. I read the manuscript, and it was a real eye opener. Helmut Kohl and his brother sent a letter written on Mickey Mouse stationery actually, wishing Onkel Adolf a happy birthday, or something. Another friend of mine went through the film archives and pieced together an immediate post-war history of the Eagle's Nest, showing trainloads of stolen art treasures that to this day that have not yet surfaced, and a bunch of other cool stuff. I saw the video while it was in the editing stage, and then my friend's German financial partner stole it. There are a lot of interesting things about history that you can only get by talking to people that lived through it. The books that are used in schools are about as detailed and accurate as the stuff you read on the back of breakfast cereal boxes. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 12:35:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24162; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000301162955343.AAA296 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:26:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Resent-Message-ID: <"wzCZW1.0.Sv5.g0Nlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Michael S. writes: >>Amazing how misinformation propagates. > >Quite a lot of it is taught in schools, Mike. That is why we are still >driving IC engine powered vehicles. Fuel cells are over 200 years old, and >are just now being funded as energy sources. Electrostatic devices are over >100 years old and are just now being considered as propulsion devices and >fusion reactors. Alternating current is around 100 years old, but the >inventor's name was almost successfully buried by the historians. Much of >the history of WWII, the Korean Conflict and all such euphemisms for large, >organized killing efforts were buried, as well as the details of the >technologies that were used. I think what you meant to say was that the >references that you have read have led you to believe that bla, bla bla, >etc., because unless you were actually there, it is almost impossible for >you to know. ***{This is an interesting subject. Since none of us were there, we have only the written literature on the subject, plus any logical insights that we can come up with, to decide how the V-2 operated. While hydrogen perodide (H2O2) is an excellent oxidizer, and could have been used in the V-2 to burn the ethanol, the only references I could find showing the layout of the V-2 show, from top to bottom, (a) the warhead, (b) control electronics, (c) the fuel tank, (d) liquid oxygen tank, (e) a much smaller hydrogen peroxide "auxillary fuel" tank, (f) a similarly sized potassium permanganate tank, (g) a steam turbine and fuel pumps, (h) the rocket motor and exhaust nozzle. According to the associated writeup, the hydrogen peroxide/potassium permanganate system was used to drive the turbine, which pumped the ethanol and lox into the combustion chamber. [*Encyclopedia Americana*, 1960 edition, Vol. R, pg. 599] --MJ}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 13:10:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17931; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:07:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:07:17 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:18:03 -0500 Message-ID: <20000301211803031.AAA113 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"8yiOC1.0._N4.0QOlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: Russian >pilots, on the other hand, used to crank up DC3 motors in the dead of >winter, wait five seconds to see if they would stop, and then fly straight >down the runway into the air, according to my father and others who had the >dubious pleasure of flying with them during WWII. They would reach flying >altitude in about five seconds too: 50 to 100 feet the whole way, to avoid >indiscriminate antiaircraft fire from both sides. Sometimes you wonder how >they managed to win, but I digress . . . > >- Jed Another wild story about the Russians that I read was that after the war, the US sent a bunch of farming gear and construction machinery over there as part of the lend lease program. The Siberian farmers complained that the US built stuff just wasn't worth a hoot. Their traditional method of warming up a Russian built tractor, for example, was to throw a can of kerosene on it and light it. The US built stuff didn't hold up too well to that method. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 13:23:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18346; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:21:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:21:05 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <29.1edcff3.25eee37d aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:19:57 EST Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"4dktX.0.aU4.1dOlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/1/00 5:38:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes: > Scott Little wrote: > > >Once again (groan) my record keeping is not what it could be. The original > >huge data set for that experiment died with the hard drive it was recorded > >on. However, I still have my notebook notes for the experiment. However, > >there is precious little information available. > If you still have it, the data on that hard drive may be recoverable. Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 13:31:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21318; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:29:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:29:44 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: British Nuclear Scandal Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:41:13 -0500 Message-ID: <20000301214113750.AAA298 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ep0aT2.0.0D5.8lOlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Here is the story that I mentioned the other day, and couldn't find the ref for it at the time. It's not nearly as bad as some of the ones that I've read about the US nuclear industry, but it is indicative of the laxness of the industry. What troubles me is that if a good alternative to nuclear power does surface, the current nuclear industry will be most likely relegated to companies in the garbage disposal industry or something like that. Low paid, uneducated workers will be handling and be responsible for decision making in the handling of materials that are no longer considered to be profitable. It is something that needs to be monitored closely by intelligent and well meaning people, or many more mistakes of this nature will occur. http://ens.lycos.com/ens/feb2000/2000L-02-29-01.html Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 13:39:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26425; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:36:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:36:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301163617.0079e9c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:36:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <20000301211803031.AAA113 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"H6Ahd3.0.hS6.nrOlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: >Another wild story about the Russians that I read was that after the war, >the US sent a bunch of farming gear and construction machinery over there as >part of the lend lease program. The Siberian farmers complained that the US >built stuff just wasn't worth a hoot. Their traditional method of warming >up a Russian built tractor, for example, was to throw a can of kerosene on >it and light it. The US built stuff didn't hold up too well to that method. You might have heard that from me. My father saw it happen. They would build a fire on the engine block, which destroyed the insulation on the wires running to the spark plugs, among other things. The Russian gear was built to withstand it. Russian stuff was tough as nails, and it was handled in what you might call a "no maintenance mode." When something broke they left it to rust in fields, out there with half the potatos, which were left to rot. My father was in Russia working on agriculture-related lend lease coordination for Uncle Sam. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 13:49:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29495; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:46:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:46:16 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:57:46 -0500 Message-ID: <20000301215746156.AAA267 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"t4vBs3.0.nC7.d-Olu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince writes: >If you still have it, the data on that hard drive >may be recoverable. > >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas Nevada I've lost two drives out of four since I started working on the net, and I priced the recovery of the information both times. It was and probably still is, astronomical (thousands of $$$). Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 13:56:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32521; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:54:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:54:26 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:05:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20000301220554656.AAA121 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"K2PfF1.0.bx7.F6Plu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >You might have heard that from me. My father saw it happen. They would >build a fire on the engine block, which destroyed the insulation on the >wires running to the spark plugs, among other things. The Russian gear was >built to withstand it. Russian stuff was tough as nails, and it was handled >in what you might call a "no maintenance mode." When something broke they >left it to rust in fields, out there with half the potatos, which were left >to rot. > >My father was in Russia working on agriculture-related lend lease >coordination for Uncle Sam. > >- Jed It probably was you! I haven't seen too much Russian built stuff other than cameras, but everything that I have seen looked as if you could hammer nails with it. The subway under Prague was one of the nicest large scale pieces of work that I have ever seen. Beat the heck out of every US and European subway system that I've seen for speed and durability. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 14:33:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13411; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:31:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:31:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301172456.007abb60 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 17:24:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <004701bf83a4$5f3ef560$25637dc7 computer> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_5dwu2.0.PH3.-ePlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:34 PM 3/1/00 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: >Vortex, > >I recently installed NERL's used Millipore deionizer that provides water >with up to 18 Mohm-cm resistivity. It starts with distilled water, then >runs it through 5 stages of filtering, requiring about an hour to reach >maximum resistivity. The manual states that the deionized water must be >continually refiltered to be available at the optimal state. Mizuno has >some model of Millipore deionizer. Although he thought that distilled water >would work as well, I don't think he tried it. > > >Edward Wall First, notice how fast it drops to circa 1 megohm-cm, then correlate that decrease occurs with what it is in, and how it protected from the air. It is CO2 that brings it down. A most important subject. Cleaning, and the order of the solvents are two additional impt issues. ;-)X Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 14:48:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19392; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:45:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:45:22 -0800 Message-ID: <009901bf83cf$9e674460$25637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com><3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430@earthtech.org><3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000301172456.007abb60@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:43:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Etz-g2.0.sk4.-rPlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > At 12:34 PM 3/1/00 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: > >Vortex, > > > >I recently installed NERL's used Millipore deionizer that provides water > >with up to 18 Mohm-cm resistivity. It starts with distilled water, then > >runs it through 5 stages of filtering, requiring about an hour to reach > >maximum resistivity. The manual states that the deionized water must be > >continually refiltered to be available at the optimal state. Mizuno has > >some model of Millipore deionizer. Although he thought that distilled water > >would work as well, I don't think he tried it. > > Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > First, notice how fast it drops to circa 1 megohm-cm, > then correlate that decrease occurs with what it is in, > and how it protected from the air. > It is CO2 that brings it down. A most important subject. > > Cleaning, and the order of the solvents are two > additional impt issues. ;-)X > Which solvents are those? Do you mean residue in the distilled water? I was not aware of any solvents in the deionizing device. It recirculates in an airtight cycle. Is CO2 likely to be a problem in making the desired electrolyte (K2CO3)? Might it be useful for Little and Mizuno to measure the conductivity of their same molarity electrolyte? Is there an easy way to determine CO2 content in the deionized water? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 15:32:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02169; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:29:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:29:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301182359.007bf2c0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <009901bf83cf$9e674460$25637dc7 computer> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000301172456.007abb60 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"g7QJD.0.pX.kVQlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:43 PM 3/1/00 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> >> First, notice how fast it drops to circa 1 megohm-cm, >> then correlate that decrease occurs with what it is in, >> and how it protected from the air. >> It is CO2 that brings it down. A most important subject. >> >> Cleaning, and the order of the solvents are two >> additional impt issues. ;-)X >> >Which solvents are those? Do you mean residue in the distilled water? I >was not aware of any solvents in the deionizing device. It recirculates in >an airtight cycle. > >Is CO2 likely to be a problem in making the desired electrolyte (K2CO3)? >Might it be useful for Little and Mizuno to measure the conductivity of >their same molarity electrolyte? Is there an easy way to determine CO2 >content in the deionized water? > >Ed Wall CO2 has a major role, as several issues of the Cold Fusion Times have reported (see also my review of ICCF7 in this months Fusion Technology for further CO2 roles). Electrical conductivity is very important, and is a function of frequency, and is only one of the important parameters. Re CO2, we measure it, along with the other ions. You didnt answer the questions BTW. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 16:32:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21859; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:29:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:29:38 -0800 Message-ID: <04d201bf839d$f016e680$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: CNN.com - Nature - Texaco quits global warming group - March 1, 2000 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:47:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF835A.D8C8D940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4aOml1.0.-K5.lNRlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF835A.D8C8D940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Water isn't the only problem, Jed. http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/01/tex.climate/index.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF835A.D8C8D940 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Nature - Texaco quits global warming group - March 1, 2000.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Nature - Texaco quits global warming group - March 1, 2000.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/01/tex.climate/index.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/01/tex.climate/index.html Modified=E085F9C29D83BF0100 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF835A.D8C8D940-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 17:08:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA32531; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:06:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:06:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000301200421.007a01a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:04:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CNN.com - Nature - Texaco quits global warming group - March 1, 2000 In-Reply-To: <04d201bf839d$f016e680$6f441d26 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CL8v1.0.Dy7.HwRlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Water isn't the only problem, Jed. > > http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/01/tex.climate/index.html [Article about global warming.] Those Texaco people were smart to fold a losing hand quickly. Yes, indeed, there are other serious environmental problems, but this one irks me. The water shortage problem we are experiencing in the U.S., and especially in Georgia, is artificial. It could easily be fixed with existing technology. Cost would be minimal. In fact it might end up costing us *less*, and water quality would improve. We have to combine waste water treatment developed in California, modern factory equipment, and agricultural techniques from Israel. Things like car washes in Atlanta have already been retrofitted with filters and recycling. They waste very little water. The cars come out as clean as ever, and they still charge only $1, or nothing with a full tank. Here we have an opportunity to improve environmental quality, public health, and create high tech jobs, and instead of doing that the state of Georgia is wasting millions suing the surrounding states! Water problems are much harder to fix in arid places like California, and in poor nations in the middle east. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 18:07:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17266; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:05:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:05:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:05:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: electrostatic air-threads In-Reply-To: <001101bf7ecb$ee6328c0$143dccc2 gaidid> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZbxLm3.0.iD4.NnSlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I stumbled across a page which might explain the strange phenomeona at http://www.amasci.com/weird/unusual/airthred.html There is a thing called "electrospray" where the end of a liquid-filled capillary tube is exposed to a strong e-field in air. The e-field causes the liquid surface at the end of the tube to adopt a conical shape, and then the repulsive forces cause microscopic liquid droplets to be emitted by the tip of this tiny cone. The following webpage notes that the stream of droplets can be a micrometer in diameter, yet move at 10 meters per second! This sounds very much like the "air threads" which make holes in a layer of dry-ice fog, yet the streams are relativly unaffected by cross-wise blasts of air. http://www.aps.org/BAPSDFD98/abs/S8130009.html Here's a paper where this effect is used to form a beam of ionized protein molecules. A jet of liquid droplets is formed in air, then passes through a 0.1mm hole into a vacuum chamber where the solvent is evaporated, leaving behind an "ion beam" composed of protein, which can be accelerated, focussed, deflected, and mass-spec'ed. http://nano.chem.nwu.edu/jarrold/OLD/protein1.htm I wonder if this has any relation to Ken Shoulders' EV particles? His mercury-wetted hypodermic needle should emit micro-droplets of mercury when high voltage is applied. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 21:55:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25819; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:54:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:54:18 -0800 Message-ID: <38BE02DC.CCF71C66 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:57:48 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: IE (Mallove) for McCain? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fA9kX1.0.KJ6.A8Wlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: March 1, 2000 Vortex, What with about 50% of radio time given over to commercials, many repeats and alternate hosts, I listen infrequently now to the Art Bell Show. Last night was an exception. He had his frequent visitor, Richard Hoagland of the Enterprise web site, on. In their conversation, Hoagland espoused his support for McCain since he, among all other candidates, expressed interest on matters close to his interests. Art Bell also likes McCain. Hoagland also mentioned that his friend, 'Gene Mallove (Infinite Energy publisher), offered background information about cold fusion (alternative energy resources) to all of the presidential candidates during town meetings near where he lived and McCain was the only one that accepted the offer. You would have thought all of them would have accepted, given the fuel problem that was rising. Is there to be a report on this in the forthcoming issue of IE? -AK-. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 21:58:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27431; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:57:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:57:49 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: electrostatic air-threads Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:09:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000302060920953.AAA98 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"rcnQI.0.Ui6.SBWlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Bill, Thanks for the links. The Jarrod Group link doesn't have everything that is supposed to be there, I don't think. Was there actually a schematic of the experimental device when you looked at it? There are also just a couple of blank pages there. Anyway, there's a bunch more good plasma stuff at: http://nano.chem.nwu.edu/jarrold/publicat.htm in pdf format, too. My poor eyeballs... What I have been thinking, is that if you took two Naudin style plasma panels, and stacked one over the other with the appropriate gap between them, you would create a more or less positive displacement gas pump. If they were both on the same circuit, they would oscillate the air at the same time, and the air between the panels would more or less be caught in that pulse. If you adjust the panels so that the undulation was the same as: ^ )| ) ( |( )| ) ( |( ^ then the air would merely be moved along with the undulation. If you adjusted the relative position of the panels so that the undulations of the fields were in opposition to each other as: ^ (o) )( (o) )( (o) ^ then the air would be trapped in the spaces, and possibly made to vortex. If you had more than one set of dual panels, one set to plaz at one frequency, and the next set at a higher frequency, then you could accelerate these cylindrical lumps of spinning gas to very high speeds. You might even be able to knock over a cow! With the right gas running through the panel gauntlet, you might be able to turn the cow inside out... I would start with a dry H2O fog generated by an ultra sound device. Direct it with a tube into the space between the panels. Dry ice might be interesting, too. Don't fool around with mercury unless you feel especially lucky. Have a spotter. Maybe wear a good pair of sun glasses, and lead underwear. Have fun, play safe, and give my best to the Seattle crowd, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 1 22:13:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00875; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:12:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:12:03 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: CNN.com - Nature - Texaco quits global warming group - March 1, 2000 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:23:39 -0500 Message-ID: <20000302062339921.AAA66 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"R5vHY3.0.TD.pOWlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >Those Texaco people were smart to fold a losing hand quickly. Texaco hasn't folded it's hand, nor has it lost. Texaco owns a good portion of the deck. They were just buying some time until they could do their own patent work on fuel cells and gas delivery support systems, that's all. GM just announced yesterday, BTW, its' fuel cell driven car, but I went to the their website, and needed a media password. Maybe you can get some info on it. http://ens.lycos.com/e-wire/Feb00/29Feb0001.html http://media.gm.com/ Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 00:53:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24301; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:50:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:50:30 -0800 Message-ID: <050301bf83ca$8c6624c0$6f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: About the A4-V2. Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:05:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8387.2A4A4FC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"f5xzC3.0.Kx5.DjYlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8387.2A4A4FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/6039/v2info.html ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8387.2A4A4FC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="About the A4-V2..url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="About the A4-V2..url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/6039/v2info.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/6039/v2info.html Modified=20ED1D2ACA83BF0161 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8387.2A4A4FC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 06:08:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20627; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:07:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:07:26 -0800 Message-ID: <001201bf8450$70e0e420$9a637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com><3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430@earthtech.org><3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0@pop.mindspring.com><3.0.6.32.20000301172456.007abb60@world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000301182359.007bf2c0@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:05:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"NsYpW.0.C25.TMdlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > CO2 has a major role, as several issues of the Cold Fusion Times have > reported (see also my review of ICCF7 in this months Fusion Technology > for further CO2 roles). Electrical conductivity is very important, > and is a function of frequency, and is only one of the important > parameters. Re CO2, we measure it, along with the other ions. > > You didnt answer the questions BTW. Perhaps you are being a bit too cryptic, Mitchell. Which questions did I not answer? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 06:26:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25481; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:23:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000302091749.007bd100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:17:49 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos In-Reply-To: <001201bf8450$70e0e420$9a637dc7 computer> References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com> <3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000301172456.007abb60 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000301182359.007bf2c0 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OoUoi2.0.2E6.Ubdlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:05 AM 3/2/00 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: > >> >> CO2 has a major role, as several issues of the Cold Fusion Times have >> reported (see also my review of ICCF7 in this months Fusion Technology >> for further CO2 roles). Electrical conductivity is very important, >> and is a function of frequency, and is only one of the important >> parameters. Re CO2, we measure it, along with the other ions. >> >> You didnt answer the questions BTW. > >Perhaps you are being a bit too cryptic, Mitchell. Which questions did I >not answer? How fast does the electrical conductivity (what did you actually measure?) drop? and to what level? ~1 megohm-cm? Does the decrease correlate with what it the "conductivity water is in? Can you demonstrate it is CO2? Are you using solvents in cleaning, or just using electrowinning electropolishing and other electrochemical techniques? What is the order of the solvents? Sorry, I thought is was a most important subject. Actually, you might not be interested, since the equations of loading (the q1D model) and the theory of controlling reproducibility (the Optimal operating point) are -and have been- more important. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 06:34:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28650; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:33:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:33:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000302092804.007bb9a0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:28:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"A9IX03.0.a_6.6ldlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:05 AM 3/2/00 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: > >> >> CO2 has a major role, as several issues of the Cold Fusion Times have >> reported (see also my review of ICCF7 in this months Fusion Technology >> for further CO2 roles). Electrical conductivity is very important, >> and is a function of frequency, and is only one of the important >> parameters. Re CO2, we measure it, along with the other ions. >> >> You didnt answer the questions BTW. > >Perhaps you are being a bit too cryptic, Mitchell. Which questions did I >not answer? ================================ Mea culpa. The following is corrected. I better get back to work. Sorry for the error **** ================================ How fast does the electrical resistivity (what did you actually measure?) drop? and to what level? ~1 megohm-cm? Does the decrease in resistivity correlate with what the "conductivity water" is in? Can you demonstrate it is CO2? Are you using solvents in cleaning, or just using electrowinning electropolishing and other electrochemical techniques? What is the order of the solvents? Sorry, I thought is was a most important subject. Actually, you might not be interested, since the equations of loading (the q1D model) and the theory of controlling reproducibility (the Optimal operating point) are -and have been- more important. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 07:46:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA21005; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:44:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000302104403.0079c340 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 10:44:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The public controls technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qSBDq.0.y75.Unelu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A quote from S. Florman, "The Existential Pleasures of Engineering," (St. Martin's Griffin, 1996), p. 40: Sir Hugh E. C. Beaver, addressing the First International Congress on Air Pollution in 1955, traced the seven-hundred-year-long campaign against air pollution in England. Complaint after complaint, committee after committee, report after report -- all were ineffectual, as the centuries passed, and conditions grew progressively worse. Finally the London Smog of 1952, with its horrendous 4,000 deaths, set the scene for a new investigating committee, which was chaired by Sir Hugh. The committee's report was well received, said Beaver, and led to effective action, not because the report was exceptional in any way, but because the public was, at long last, receptive. The lesson to be learned, according to Beaver, is that "on public opinion, and on it alone, finally rests the issue." This is how the world works. Engineers and scientists are not in charge of technology. They never have been, and they should not be blamed for its faults. The public is in charge, whether it knows it or not. The myriad problems caused by technology, such as pollution, urban sprawl, population growth, coal-fired generators, weapons development, global warming, water allocation, job losses caused by mechanization, and so on can only be solved by the public at large, in a political process, mediated by corporations and policy makers. There are seldom isolated technical solutions that let us avoid difficult decisions and social trade-offs. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 08:03:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26902; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:58:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:58:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01bf8469$f58db2c0$a392cbc1 quantum.iol.ie> Reply-To: "Noel Whitney" < iol.ie> From: "Noel Whitney" To: Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:07:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4jJQP.0.Ga6.Z-elu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: 25 February 2000 18:11 Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety >At 11:02 PM 2/23/00 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: > >>What I haven't seen so far however, is a comprehensive, >>public domain treatment of the dangers of HV circuits, especially the proper >>wiring of capacitors for DC and AC circuits, and for the proper methods of >>discharging them. > >I got most of my experience the hard way. A good rule of thumb that won't >fail you is to treat anything that's at high voltage like it was red hot. >You don't dare touch it...or even get very close to it. And don't let >anything else get close to it...especially expensive meters, etc. > >A wonderful life-saving convenience is to start out with a HV supply with a >big series resistor so it is current-limited to a few 10's of microamps. >That'll still produce sparks and nice shocks but you won't die if you make >a mistake. Stay away from >milliamps until you get some experience. > >I work by myself all the time and, although I've experienced minor shocks >many times in the past, I've only gotten one or two that really sat me down >for a while. Those experiences stick with you damned well! > >Where you start to get into real dangerous territory is when you charge big >capacitors to high voltages. We have a 2 mfd 10,000 volt capacitor here >that discharges with a bang like a .45 going off! I guess that's not >surprising since it stores 100 joules when fully charged. That's enough >energy to lift me (250 lbs) about 10 cm vertically! To discharge this >thing gently, I taped a 50k resistor to the end of a 2' long wooden dowel >rod. I use this "wand" to connect across the capacitor for ~10 seconds >(100 time constants). > >Another nice thing to have is a 2' long wooden dowel with a heavy flexible >wire taped to the end of the dowel. Connect the other end of the flexible >wire to a good ground and that gives you a "ground wand" which you can >always touch to something BEFORE you touch it with your fingers. >Instructions: If a big nasty spark jumps to the ground wand, don't touch >the item with your fingers! > >Good luck and have fun. > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 08:04:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28493; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:03:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:03:12 -0800 Message-ID: <20000302160234.6462.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [64.6.128.251] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 10:02:34 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"TGCWM.0.7z6.-2flu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So the H2O2 was used only to spin the turbine to run the fuel pump?? How efficient could that have been? Adam ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 08:31:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07355; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:27:46 -0800 Message-ID: <003301bf846c$72c34f00$d9441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000302160234.6462.qmail hotmail.com> Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:25:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"f8e-H3.0.ro1.0Qflu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Cox To: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Probably quite efficient ( 2 H2O2 (sodium permanganate catalyst)----> 2 H20 Steam + O2 ~50,000 cal exotherm, makes for simplicity. FJS > So the H2O2 was used only to spin the turbine to run the fuel pump?? > How efficient could that have been? > > Adam > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 09:17:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07100; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:09:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:09:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000302115032.007bf100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 11:50:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: The public controls technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000302104403.0079c340 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-QGkK2.0.ok1.o0glu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:44 AM 3/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >A quote from S. Florman, "The Existential Pleasures of Engineering," (St. >Martin's Griffin, 1996), p. 40: > > Sir Hugh E. C. Beaver, addressing the First International Congress on > Air Pollution in 1955, traced the seven-hundred-year-long campaign > against air pollution in England. Complaint after complaint, committee > after committee, report after report -- all were ineffectual, as the > centuries passed, and conditions grew progressively worse. Finally the > London Smog of 1952, with its horrendous 4,000 deaths, set the scene > for a new investigating committee, which was chaired by Sir Hugh. The > committee's report was well received, said Beaver, and led to effective > action, not because the report was exceptional in any way, but because > the public was, at long last, receptive. The lesson to be learned, > according to Beaver, is that "on public opinion, and on it alone, > finally rests the issue." > >This is how the world works. Engineers and scientists are not in charge of >technology. They never have been, and they should not be blamed for its >faults. The public is in charge, whether it knows it or not. ???? How do you spell, "Tacoma bridge". The public is not at fault, nor actually in charge. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 11:05:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18574; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:03:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:03:12 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000302140232.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:02:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The public controls technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000302115032.007bf100 world.std.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000302104403.0079c340 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NzoFn2.0.kX4.jhhlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > ???? How do you spell, "Tacoma bridge". T-a-c-o-m-a b-r-i-d-g-e > The public is not at fault, nor actually in charge. The Tacoma bridge disaster was purely technical problem, which is quite unusual. Most bridges fall down because of misguided public policy. Funds are allocated to build new bridges, but not enough is spent to maintain the old ones. After 1870 in the U.S., only one bridge collapsed because of an engineering mistake, whereas water damage from backed up sewers and cracked pavements have destroyed hundreds. The engineers tell politicians, newpaper reporters and corporate executives about this infrastructure problem, and they write articles about bridge maintenance in Scientific American, but they have no power to decide the policy. Only the public can decide whether bridges will stand or fall. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 11:31:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26914; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:29:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:29:46 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000302142919.007a9dd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:29:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The public controls technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000302140232.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000302115032.007bf100 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000302104403.0079c340 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rBPCh3.0.Ia6.f4ilu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >After 1870 in the U.S., only one bridge collapsed because of an >engineering mistake As far as I know, that is. A poorly designed Canadian bridge collapsed during construction in 1907, in Quebec. One section of overpass near my house fell during construction, but I do not think that was a design fault. >whereas water damage from backed up sewers and cracked >pavements have destroyed hundreds. . . . Water damage is the main cause of bridge failure. Bridges have also been destroyed by floods, earthquakes, and other natural causes. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 11:52:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00473; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:49:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:49:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:49:35 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The public controls technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000302115032.007bf100 world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PH0dL.0.G7.MNilu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tacoma Narrows Bridge On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 10:44 AM 3/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >A quote from S. Florman, "The Existential Pleasures of Engineering," (St. > >Martin's Griffin, 1996), p. 40: > > > > Sir Hugh E. C. Beaver, addressing the First International Congress on > > Air Pollution in 1955, traced the seven-hundred-year-long campaign > > against air pollution in England. Complaint after complaint, committee > > after committee, report after report -- all were ineffectual, as the > > centuries passed, and conditions grew progressively worse. Finally the > > London Smog of 1952, with its horrendous 4,000 deaths, set the scene > > for a new investigating committee, which was chaired by Sir Hugh. The > > committee's report was well received, said Beaver, and led to effective > > action, not because the report was exceptional in any way, but because > > the public was, at long last, receptive. The lesson to be learned, > > according to Beaver, is that "on public opinion, and on it alone, > > finally rests the issue." > > > >This is how the world works. Engineers and scientists are not in charge of > >technology. They never have been, and they should not be blamed for its > >faults. The public is in charge, whether it knows it or not. > > > ???? How do you spell, "Tacoma bridge". > > The public is not at fault, nor actually in charge. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 11:55:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02050; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:53:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:53:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:53:40 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The public controls technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000302140232.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9-mam.0.pV.ERilu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed The History Channel and TLC channel (cable TV) recently had a series on both bridge design and engineering disasters. Very interesting, good documentary TV. Hank On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > ???? How do you spell, "Tacoma bridge". > > T-a-c-o-m-a b-r-i-d-g-e > > > > The public is not at fault, nor actually in charge. > > The Tacoma bridge disaster was purely technical problem, which is quite > unusual. Most bridges fall down because of misguided public policy. Funds > are allocated to build new bridges, but not enough is spent to maintain the > old ones. After 1870 in the U.S., only one bridge collapsed because of an > engineering mistake, whereas water damage from backed up sewers and cracked > pavements have destroyed hundreds. The engineers tell politicians, newpaper > reporters and corporate executives about this infrastructure problem, and > they write articles about bridge maintenance in Scientific American, but > they have no power to decide the policy. Only the public can decide whether > bridges will stand or fall. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 11:57:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02317; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:55:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:55:39 -0800 Message-ID: <006201bf8481$1517eb80$9a637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <9f.23e03f7.25e8b471 aol.com><3.0.1.32.20000229151257.0132b430@earthtech.org><3.0.6.32.20000301084427.007a1cd0@pop.mindspring.com><3.0.6.32.20000301172456.007abb60@world.std.com><3.0.6.32.20000301182359.007bf2c0@world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.200003 02091749.007bd100 world.std.com> Subject: Re: Deionizer, was Re: BLP&Sparberinos Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:41:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"MhcCp3.0.3a.xSilu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > How fast does the electrical conductivity (what did > you actually measure?) drop? So far, I am using only the built-in meter, which is labeled in Mohm-cm > and to what level? ~1 megohm-cm? It climbs to 18 Mohm-cm. > Does the decrease correlate with what it the "conductivity > water is in? Don't know. > Can you demonstrate it is CO2? We do not have an RGA yet, and that is the only method that I would know to try. > Are you using solvents in cleaning, or just using electrowinning > electropolishing and other electrochemical techniques? We are following Dash's protocol, which calls for using H2SO4 for rinsing electrodes. > What is the order of the solvents? We're not there yet. > Sorry, I thought is was a most important subject. > Actually, you might not be interested, since the > equations of loading (the q1D model) and the theory > of controlling reproducibility (the Optimal operating > point) are -and have been- more important. I'm peddling as fast as I can! We appreciate your wide and deep ranging scientific knowledge, and ask for your patience. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 12:16:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08941; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:13:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:13:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000302151304.007a2940 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 15:13:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: A list of bridge failures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WEm2I2.0.YB2.fjilu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I find there have been a few other catastrophic bridge failures after 1870, including a few caused design errors or poor site selection. Here is a list: http://www.iti.nwu.edu/clear/bridge/bri_dis.html Modern engineering standards were set around 1870. Water damage, which I mentioned before, does not usually make bridges collapse dramatically; it shortens their service life by many years. That isn't quite the same thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 12:54:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25062; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:51:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:51:14 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003301bf846c$72c34f00$d9441d26 fjsparber> References: <20000302160234.6462.qmail hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:46:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Resent-Message-ID: <"3HtnJ.0.U76.-Gjlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Adam Cox >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:02 AM >Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. > >Probably quite efficient ( 2 H2O2 (sodium permanganate catalyst)----> 2 >H20 Steam + O2 >~50,000 cal exotherm, makes for simplicity. ***{Where did you obtain that number? If the heat liberated by decomposition of H2O2 is really 50,000 cal/gm, that is almost 5 times the heat of combustion of gasoline. I frankly find that very difficult to believe. --MJ}*** > >FJS > > >> So the H2O2 was used only to spin the turbine to run the fuel pump?? >> How efficient could that have been? >> >> Adam >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 12:55:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25048; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:51:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:51:14 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:50:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Resent-Message-ID: <"SggbZ2.0.H76.yGjlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Adam Cox >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:02 AM >Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. > >Probably quite efficient ( 2 H2O2 (sodium permanganate catalyst)----> 2 >H20 Steam + O2 >~50,000 cal exotherm, makes for simplicity. ***{Where did you obtain that number? If the heat liberated by decomposition of H2O2 is really 50,000 cal/gm, that is almost 5 times the heat of combustion of gasoline. I frankly find that very difficult to believe. --MJ}*** > >FJS > > >> So the H2O2 was used only to spin the turbine to run the fuel pump?? >> How efficient could that have been? >> >> Adam >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 13:01:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26704; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:58:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:58:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005d01bf8492$41a09d80$d9441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:56:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fn7F1.0.1X6.xNjlu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Jones To: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:50 PM Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. That is ~ 25,000 cal per 34 grams of H2O2 . A highly exothermic reaction 2 H2O2 ----> 2 H2O + O2. Go Figure. FJS > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Adam Cox > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:02 AM > >Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. > > > >Probably quite efficient ( 2 H2O2 (sodium permanganate catalyst)----> 2 > >H20 Steam + O2 > >~50,000 cal exotherm, makes for simplicity. > > ***{Where did you obtain that number? If the heat liberated by > decomposition of H2O2 is really 50,000 cal/gm, that is almost 5 times the > heat of combustion of gasoline. I frankly find that very difficult to > believe. --MJ}*** > > > > >FJS > > > > > >> So the H2O2 was used only to spin the turbine to run the fuel pump?? > >> How efficient could that have been? > >> > >> Adam > >> ______________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 16:39:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20186; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:37:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:37:15 -0800 From: protech frii.com Reply-To: rwormus lock-load.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 17:37:24 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: New Scientist: Random Reality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"kmdRC1.0.Kx4.wamlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting article at: http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns22273 Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 2 20:34:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14698; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:31:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:31:43 -0800 Message-Id: <200003030431.XAA22166 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: IE (Mallove) for McCain? Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:23:53 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "Akira Kawasaki" , "vortex-l eskimo.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"fog_K3.0.ab3.l0qlu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira, >March 1, 2000 > >Vortex, > >What with about 50% of radio time given over >to commercials, many repeats and alternate >hosts, I listen infrequently now to the Art >Bell Show. Last night was an exception. He >had his frequent visitor, Richard Hoagland of >the Enterprise web site, on. >In their conversation, Hoagland espoused his >support for McCain since he, among all other >candidates, expressed interest on matters >close to his interests. Art Bell also likes >McCain. >Hoagland also mentioned that his friend, >'Gene Mallove (Infinite Energy publisher), >offered background information about cold >fusion (alternative energy resources) to all >of the presidential candidates during town >meetings near where he lived and McCain was >the only one that accepted the offer. That is true. His top advisor in NH came for a 1 hour briefing. Later more materials were requested and sent to yet another McCain policy advisor -- out of state. Steve Forbes' advisor in NH sent us a kind note, but never got back to us. So far no response from either Bush or Gore, but we hope to hear from both of them before long. We'll see. In the meantime, we are pursuing other government contacts, which we hope to be able to discuss in the not too distant future. > You >would have thought all of them would have >accepted, given the fuel problem that was >rising. I would have thought no such thing. We have been trying to interest politicians in this for a decade, to almost no avail. >Is there to be a report on this in the >forthcoming issue of IE? Yes. You'll see. > >-AK-. Gene Mallove > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 08:09:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26448; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:07:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:07:26 -0800 Message-ID: <384052317.952099641343.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: GM EV-1 recall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.154 Resent-Message-ID: <"yAQYF3.0.6T6.-C-lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: GM has recalled the EV-1, requiring the lessees to permanently bid them farewell. Also their S-10 electric pickups. Chargers have potential fire hazard. This will only apply to lead-acid battery equipped vehicles. The Ni-H2 EV-1 will continue to be available, but very few of these are in the hands of customers. 150 remain in inventory. All this according to an L.A. Times reprint in our local paper. This would appear to be the story behind the earlier rumor. GM says they plan to produce a fuel-cell powered electric in the future. Mark Goldes ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 09:03:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13769; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:01:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:01:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000303120121.0079e890 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:01:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall In-Reply-To: <384052317.952099641343.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X-p6-2.0.3N3.40_lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: >GM says they plan to produce a fuel-cell powered electric in the future. They better hustle and make a down-to-earth hybrid gasoline-electric car, if they want to stay competitive with the Japanese. Instead, they have been showcasing these far-out, tour-de-force cars like the EV-1 and their hybrid with TV cameras instead of a back mirror. Gasoline prices in the U.S. are shooting up, and demand for the Japanese hybrid cars is exceeding all sales projections. Atlanta dealers are no longer accepting people for the waiting list, and sales in Japan are stronger than expected despite the continuing economic malaise there. A hybrid is a compromise technology: a combination of the old and new. I like technical compromises! Why go far out when you can tweak existing technology and achieve 80% of the same performance? (A hybrid reduces pollution and increases efficiency roughly four-fifths as much as a pure electric vehicle.) Some people prefer a bold, sharp departure from the past, but that often leads to something like the "Great Eastern," the IBM "Stretch" computer, and innumerable other lesser-know products that pushed the state of the art farther than it was meant to go. You end up with unprofitable, unreliable products. The EV-1 is good example. On the other hand, "Stretch" computer technology led to the IBM 360, and much of the EV-1 would be applicable to a hybrid or fuel-cell car, so GM's investment can be salvaged. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 09:46:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29783; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:44:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:44:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <384052317.952099641343.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:44:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall Resent-Message-ID: <"H5Y7N1.0.HH7.Ke_lu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >GM has recalled the EV-1, requiring the lessees to permanently bid them >farewell. Also their S-10 electric pickups. Chargers have potential fire >hazard. This will only apply to lead-acid battery equipped vehicles. > >The Ni-H2 EV-1 will continue to be available, but very few of these are in >the hands of customers. 150 remain in inventory. > >All this according to an L.A. Times reprint in our local paper. > >This would appear to be the story behind the earlier rumor. > >GM says they plan to produce a fuel-cell powered electric in the future. > >Mark Goldes ***{Yet another illustration of why small companies cannot make it in the present-day auto industry. GM has the deep pockets necessary to survive recalling and, if necessary, scrapping a line of vehicles such as this. A small company which had committed all or most of its resources to one line, however, could not do that. Ultimately, there is simply no substitute for property rights. Contractual limitations on liability need to be upheld by the courts--which means: the legal system should permit a manufacturer to sell a vehicle to a customer who agrees that any risk or liability associated with use is his and his alone.Without such rights, the tendency of all industries is toward domination by massive, slow moving, bureaucratic firms which are capable of averaging their legal exposure over a large number of product lines. In such societies, creative individuals tend to be forced into subordinate roles working for people whom they regard as highly paid idiots. As a consequence, innovation proceeds at a slower pace than would have been the case if property rights were respected. (And comic strips such as "Dilbert," which cater to the frustrations of creative people, enjoy widespread popularity.) --MJ}*** >______________________________________________ >FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com >Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 10:22:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09069; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:20:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:20:52 -0800 Message-ID: <380329423.952107647239.JavaMail.root web35.pub01> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 13:20:47 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.149 Resent-Message-ID: <"KoiSR3.0.cD2.3A0mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hybrids make more sense in a relatively level state like Georgia than they do in California where cities with steep hills like San Francisco and long steep grades tend to make them difficult to justify. Fuel cells are a better solution but still far short of optimal. There is still a crying need for practical new energy sources that can be utilized for cars. ------Original Message------ From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: March 3, 2000 5:01:21 PM GMT Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall Mark Goldes wrote: >GM says they plan to produce a fuel-cell powered electric in the future. They better hustle and make a down-to-earth hybrid gasoline-electric car, if they want to stay competitive with the Japanese. Instead, they have been showcasing these far-out, tour-de-force cars like the EV-1 and their hybrid with TV cameras instead of a back mirror. Gasoline prices in the U.S. are shooting up, and demand for the Japanese hybrid cars is exceeding all sales projections. Atlanta dealers are no longer accepting people for the waiting list, and sales in Japan are stronger than expected despite the continuing economic malaise there. A hybrid is a compromise technology: a combination of the old and new. I like technical compromises! Why go far out when you can tweak existing technology and achieve 80% of the same performance? (A hybrid reduces pollution and increases efficiency roughly four-fifths as much as a pure electric vehicle.) Some people prefer a bold, sharp departure from the past, but that often leads to something like the "Great Eastern," the IBM "Stretch" computer, and innumerable other lesser-know products that pushed the state of the art farther than it was meant to go. You end up with unprofitable, unreliable products. The EV-1 is good example. On the other hand, "Stretch" computer technology led to the IBM 360, and much of the EV-1 would be applicable to a hybrid or fuel-cell car, so GM's investment can be salvaged. - Jed Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 11:23:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01219; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:21:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:21:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000303142056.007a8100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 14:20:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall In-Reply-To: <380329423.952107647239.JavaMail.root web35.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"j0Hlx1.0.yI.-21mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: >Hybrids make more sense in a relatively level state like Georgia than they >do in California where cities with steep hills like San Francisco and long >steep grades tend to make them difficult to justify. Why? The hybrids have regenerative braking. Are you suggesting they are not powerful enough? Japan, by the way, has the same geology as San Francisco: steep hills, volcanos, "young" mountains, abrupt seashores . . . The hybrids are doing well in Japan. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 11:36:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04426; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000303143508.007a98e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 14:35:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Royal Soc. of Chem. honors Fleischmann Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2CkaF2.0.-41.JG1mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a notice of a conference sponsored by the Royal Society of Chemistry http://www.chemsoc.org/events/_events/00001164.htm Conference Information: Title: From Femto to Teraamps - An Electrochemistry Meeting To Honour The Work Of Martin Fleischmann Subject Category: Electrochemistry Organisers: University of Southampton Dates: 28 April 2000 - 30 April 2000 Conference/Event venue and address: Venue name: Novotel Hotel, Southampton Address: 1 West Quay Road Western Esplanade Southampton SO15 1RA United Kingdom URL: http://. Contact details: Name: Derek Pletcher Address: University of Southampton Department of Chemistry Highfield Southampton SO17-1BJ United Kingdom Telephone number: +44 1703 593519 Fax number: +44 1703 676960 Email: derek pletcher.demon.co.uk Conference/Event information: Main themes are: The purpose of the meeting is to explore recent developments in the many and diverse facets of electrochemistry initiated or furthered by Martin Fleischmann FRS during his long and distinguished career. Hence, topics to be discussed will range from fundamental physical chemistry to industrial applications of electrolysis. Main speakers will be: Martin Fleischmann, Alan Bond, Ian Dalrymple, Phil Bartlett, Guy Denuault, Stephen Fletcher, David Genders, Hubert Girault, Maher Kalaji, Geoff Kelsall, Ric McCreery, Guiliano Mengoli, Richards Nichols, Keith Oldham, Laurence Peter, David Schiffrin, Jim Utley, Frank Walsh, David Williams. Registration fees are: Two hundred and seventy pounds sterling. See below for details. Accommodation available: Accommodation for Friday and Saturday nights and all meals during the Conference are included in the registration fees. Financial assistance: The organising committee hope to have a number of bursaries to aid attendance of students. Organised social programme: Conference Dinner on Saturday night From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 12:42:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02596; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:38:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:38:55 -0800 Message-ID: <38C02713.7FD8AFF0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:56:51 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Mar 03, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3ZvTU1.0.Ue.VB2mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Mar 03, 2000 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:51:40 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 3 Mar 00 Washington, DC 1. MICROGRAVITY: REPORT DUMPS ON PROTEIN CRYSTAL GROWTH. The impact of space-grown crystals on structural biology "has been extremely limited" according to a National Research Council study released Wednesday that evaluated biotechnology research plans for the International Space Station. Enormous investment in protein crystal growth on the Shuttle and on Mir has not led to a single unique scientific result, the panel concluded, and should be de-emphasized. The study confirms warnings of the American Society for Cell Biology, which two years ago called for cancellation of the space-grown protein crystal program (WN 17 Jul 98). The NRC study was undertaken for NASA, which hopes to regain credibility lost a year ago after a NASA press release proclaimed: "NASA develops flu drug in space." The implication was that data from crystals grown on the shuttle was essential to the design of the drug. A NASA funded crystallographer, Larry DeLucas, had made the same claim in congressional testimony (WN 11 Apr 97). But Science magazine (25 June 99) disclosed that the crystals used were not even grown in space, but in Australia. Space-grown crystals can be distinguished only by their cost. 2. CLIMATE CHANGE: TEXACO DESERTS THE GLOBAL CLIMATE COALITION. Under pressure from shareholder groups, including the Episcopal Church, the energy giant became the first U.S. oil company to leave the Global Climate Coalition, the powerful lobby group that opposes the Kyoto Protocol; the GCC argues there is insufficient evidence that warming is due to CO2 emissions. Other U.S. defectors from the GCC in the past two years include Ford and Dow Chemical. The pullout does not mean Texaco supports the Kyoto approach to CO2 reduction. It does mean corporations will heed the ethical sensitivities of shareholder groups. So what happens if the Episcopal Church and the 700 Club both own shares? 3. MISSILE DEFENSE: NAVY CHIEF DOESN'T WANT TO BE LEFT OUT. Everybody, it seems, want's a piece of the NMD budget, which is $12.7B and certain to grow. According to the Washington Post, Admiral Jay Johnson is urging Defense Secretary Cohen to add a mobile layer of defense using the Navy's Aegis Cruisers, a plan Senator John Kyl (R-AZ) has been pushing for some time (WN 9 Apr 99). It's not clear how this would affect negotiations on the ABM Treaty, which bans mobile defenses. Russia might not oppose it, since missile trajectories from Russia are over the pole. 4. WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE? ABC PAYS INEPT PSYCHIC $1M. In 1993, ABC covertly videotaped Mark Sanders and his colleagues working the telephones of the Psychic Services Network. The tape aired on "Prime Time Live," which depicted the telephone psychic business as a scam. Sanders sued ABC for ruining his reputation. A jury, of course, agreed: Having failed to sense that he was being secretly taped, Sander's career as a psychic was shattered. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 13:48:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30273; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 13:47:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 13:47:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000303154645.0132d384 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:46:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mills electrolysis experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mGb4D3.0.xO7.JB3mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Thanks to the diligence of George Holz, I am now aware of the detailed description of Mills Ni-light water experiments presented in ,"The Grand Unified THeory of Classical Quantum Mechanics", September 1996 Edition, p. 469-482...which book we have had for some time. A number of experiments are described. The one that appeals most has the following particulars: Cathode: 28 meters of Ni wire in a cylindrical coil Anode: 10 cm of Pt wire in a smaller coil inside the cathode Electrolyte: 200 ml of 0.57M K2CO3 (active) or 0.57M Na2CO3 (control) Stirring: yes, magnetically driven stir bar 750 rpm Input power: both steady DC and pulsed DC were explored. For the pulsed DC, the voltage was a square wave that went from 1.6v to 1.9v (i.e. never to zero). The cell drew current only during the 1.9v portion of the waveform, which was 36% of the period. The frequency was 600 Hz. Calorimetry: A high-sensitivity isoperibolic method was employed. The electrolysis cell vessel was a Dewar, surrounded by constant-temperature room air. Appropriately averaged room air temp was measured via a nearby duplicate Dewar cell which did not have any input power. The total input power was only ~100 milliwatts so, presumably, the electrolyte did not reach objectionably high temperatures. The electrolysis gases were allowed to escape and Pin was therefore computed as (V-1.48)*I. This calorimeter was calibrated via a Joule heater immersed in the electrolyte. Results: In the case of the steady DC electrolysis, the observed heat output power was 212% of the Pin with the K2CO3 electrolyte but only 102% of Pin with the Na2CO3 electrolyte. In other words, K shows big excess heat, Na shows essentially nothing. In the case of the pulsed DC electrolysis, Mills reports an output power 16 times larger than Pin!!! Plots of the data indicate that these excess powers were essentially constant over ~30 hour periods. Since there is copious procedural detail provided in the experimental description (suppliers are given, cleaning procedures detailed, etc.), and since the observed excess heat signal is so large...I am tempted to embark upon a high fidelity replication of this experiment. Comments? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 14:52:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21014; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:44:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:44:32 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:44:25 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills electrolysis experiment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000303154645.0132d384 earthtech.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pkkXA1.0.785.F14mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Go for it. Hank On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Scott Little wrote: > Gnorts, > > Thanks to the diligence of George Holz, I am now aware of the detailed > description of Mills Ni-light water experiments presented in ,"The Grand > Unified THeory of Classical Quantum Mechanics", September 1996 Edition, p. > 469-482...which book we have had for some time. > > A number of experiments are described. The one that appeals most has the > following particulars: > > Cathode: 28 meters of Ni wire in a cylindrical coil > Anode: 10 cm of Pt wire in a smaller coil inside the cathode > Electrolyte: 200 ml of 0.57M K2CO3 (active) or 0.57M Na2CO3 (control) > Stirring: yes, magnetically driven stir bar 750 rpm > > Input power: both steady DC and pulsed DC were explored. For the pulsed > DC, the voltage was a square wave that went from 1.6v to 1.9v (i.e. never > to zero). The cell drew current only during the 1.9v portion of the > waveform, which was 36% of the period. The frequency was 600 Hz.. > > Calorimetry: A high-sensitivity isoperibolic method was employed. The > electrolysis cell vessel was a Dewar, surrounded by constant-temperature > room air. Appropriately averaged room air temp was measured via a nearby > duplicate Dewar cell which did not have any input power. The total input > power was only ~100 milliwatts so, presumably, the electrolyte did not > reach objectionably high temperatures. The electrolysis gases were allowed > to escape and Pin was therefore computed as (V-1.48)*I. This calorimeter > was calibrated via a Joule heater immersed in the electrolyte. > > Results: In the case of the steady DC electrolysis, the observed heat > output power was 212% of the Pin with the K2CO3 electrolyte but only 102% > of Pin with the Na2CO3 electrolyte. In other words, K shows big excess > heat, Na shows essentially nothing. In the case of the pulsed DC > electrolysis, Mills reports an output power 16 times larger than Pin!!! > Plots of the data indicate that these excess powers were essentially > constant over ~30 hour periods. > > Since there is copious procedural detail provided in the experimental > description (suppliers are given, cleaning procedures detailed, etc.), and > since the observed excess heat signal is so large...I am tempted to embark > upon a high fidelity replication of this experiment. > > Comments? > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 15:06:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18910; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:03:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:03:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000303161753.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 16:17:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sci Am. hybrid vehicle article on line Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FgLPK.0.Ed4._I4mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a good intro to the subject: http://www.sciam.com/1097issue/1097wouk.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 15:08:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29931; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:07:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:07:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000303172205.007a3c50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:22:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall In-Reply-To: References: <384052317.952099641343.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sMhw51.0.WJ7.gM4mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Yet another illustration of why small companies cannot make it in the >present-day auto industry. GM has the deep pockets necessary to survive >recalling . . . Small companies are doing extremely well in the present day auto industry. Read the Internet newsletter http://www.evworld.com. This statement sounds a lot like what I heard back in 1978 about computers. "Small companies can never compete against IBM. It takes $100 million just to DEVELOP a computer! People will never risk their companies on a no-name computer." Then the rules changed overnight. An automobile is not a particularly complex, high-tech machine. A small one costs only 3 to 5 times what a good computer costs. You can do an end-run around the liability problems by buying the chassis, doors and other parts from G.M., Ford, Volkswagen or Nissan. There are so many large companies struggling to make a profit, they will gladly sell to a small no-name start-up. You can hardly tell the difference between the makes and models anyway. As long as the thing passes safety tests, why would you care what the name plate says? Pretty soon you will be able to buy the stuff directly from whoever the car makers buy it from. You can buy the best battery GM is capable of making right now, from Mr. Stephen Schnell, of GM/Ovonics (a joint venture). He was peddling them here in Atlanta not long ago. See "GM/Ovonics Hybrid Electric Battery" (www.evworld.com). Think of how mini- and micro-computer makers started out: Michael Dell sold gray market IBM computers. He got them cheap because the big guys like IBM and Compaq were engaged in cut-throat competition with one another, and they did not care whether some college kid bought a few hundred boxes. By the time they figured out he represented real competition, he could out-manufacture them. When a company like GM with wastes years and hundreds of millions on a crappy, overcooked design like the EV-1, they are *asking* to be blown out of the water. It is like wearing a "Kick Me" sign. In 1998, after years of muffing it and wasting $350 million of their own money and God knows how much tax money, the GM product manager described "very important lessons:" "1. Neither government nor industry can dictate consumer behavior." "2. Without a proper infrastructure, alternative propulsion vehicles will fail to move from niche market popularity to the preferred mode of transportation . . ." etc., etc, unbelievably dumb, embarrasing remarks, such as: "Standardization is required to help cut costs, drive market development, remove market uncertainties, and alleviate consumer anxiety." As my kids would say: Well, Duh! Geez, Luise! Any business school freshman could have written that speech before the project began! They spent $350 mill to learn that?!? Goodness, if this is the level of marketing savvy at GM, any fool could knock them off. GM is saying: "Look everyone! I get $1.5 billion from Uncle Sam over 10 years in the PNGV program, and I cannot compete with Toyota and Honda on projects they completed in a couple of years without a single yen of government money." They can barely give their EV away, and people are lined on the waiting lists to buy the Toyota & Honda offerings. They are advertising their own vulnerability, mismanagement, lousy marketing, and waste. That is exactly the kind of attitude and the kind of project IBM wasted its money on back in the 1980s, such as "OfficeVision." You may never hear of Robert Q. Riley, but if the man has head screwed on straight, and he accomplishes what he is planning to do and introduces a 100 mpg hybrid built on a Volkswagen body, he may be the next Michael Dell. Today, Dell or Microsoft could *buy* IBM if they wanted to. In 20 years, today's start-up hybrid or CF powered automobile company might be in a position to buy GM for a song, after purchasing and upgrading their cars for the first five years. Auto industry purchasing is about to go on-line, forming the largest unified Internet market on earth. It is going to a free-for-all. Think: Level Playing Field. Anyone, anywhere in the world will be able to purchase certified, safety insured auto parts with nearly as much confidence and ease as you buy a $35 computer box with a UL power supply today. In India there are hundreds of mom-and-pop operations that put together automobiles with standard Japanese motors and a fixed design which has been popular in that country for decades. This came about after the parts makers started selling to the general public, and people found out that auto parts are so modular these days, you do not need a factory production line to assemble them cheaply. (Also, factories in India have few robots.) Automobiles could become standard, off-the-shelf commodities, referred to mainly by the type of motor under the hood, like today's computers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 15:18:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21999; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:15:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:15:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:15:17 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sci Am. hybrid vehicle article on line In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000303161753.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"T1ryp.0.aN5.IU4mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed The general consensus of the EV group seems to be that not enough attention has been paid to the electrical portion of the car. The batteries used are very small, and the cars are not usable as a pure electric vehicle for driving in downtown areas, etc where it would be nice to avoid increasing the pollution. Instead of being designed as an electric vehicle using the ICE engine as an auxillary to keep the batteries charged, the cars are the other way around. The electric is only used for initial startup, and the car runs as an ICE the rest of the time. Hank On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > This is a good intro to the subject: > > http://www.sciam.com/1097issue/1097wouk.html > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 15:19:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22730; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:17:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:17:46 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mills electrolysis experiment Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:28:55 -0500 Message-ID: <20000303232855125.AAA62 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"YoS532.0.fY5.EW4mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott > Go for it. >Hank > Isn't reading the manual kind of like cheating? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 15:29:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05498; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:27:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:27:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000303154645.0132d384 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.1.32.20000303154645.0132d384 earthtech.org> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 13:27:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mills electrolysis experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"1H9WB1.0.oL1.Sf4mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott - >[...] since the observed excess heat signal is so large...I am > tempted to embark upon a high fidelity replication of this experiment. Please embark in due course by all means! But what about your credibility if you get consistently positive results of excess heat? Low enough probablility in your estimation that you won't have to worry about that if and until it happens? I know that sounds like those weight-loss ads: "don't lose too much weight too quickly.", but you could get 'unlucky' someday, you never know. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 15:34:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07212; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:33:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:33:24 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:44:58 -0500 Message-ID: <20000303234458250.AAA112 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"lH0Hn.0.Tm1.3l4mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >This statement sounds a lot like what I heard back in 1978 about computers. >"Small companies can never compete against IBM. It takes $100 million just >to DEVELOP a computer! People will never risk their companies on a no-name >computer." Then the rules changed overnight. > >An automobile is not a particularly complex, high-tech machine. A small one >costs only 3 to 5 times what a good computer costs. You can do an end-run >around the liability problems by buying the chassis, doors and other parts >from G.M., Ford, Volkswagen or Nissan. An electric motor compared to a hybrid, is also not a high tech device. Properly maintained, an electric motor will work without fail for 30 - 50 years of heavy usage. A fuel cell, once the materials issues are worked out, can be manufactured quite easily as well. Far more easily than any IC engine. GM's engine making components are in big trouble, and that is why you are seeing the panic, mis-statements by high level executives, and public waffling on strategy, etc.. They essentially will become extinct altogether, or just be an assembler of overseas made auto parts in addition to their lucrative weapons manufacturing divisions. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 16:59:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11964; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:58:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:58:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <380992634.952131432096.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:57:12 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.230 Resent-Message-ID: <"HJ04-.0.rw2.a-5mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------Original Message------ From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: March 3, 2000 7:20:56 PM GMT Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall Mark Goldes wrote: >Hybrids make more sense in a relatively level state like Georgia than they >do in California where cities with steep hills like San Francisco and long >steep grades tend to make them difficult to justify. Why? The hybrids have regenerative braking. Are you suggesting they are not powerful enough? Precisely! Japan, by the way, has the same geology as San Francisco: steep hills, volcanos, "young" mountains, abrupt seashores . . . The hybrids are doing well in Japan. I suspect California drivers are likely to proceed at speeds considerably in excess of those in Japan. Cities like San Francisco have streets with extremly steep climb requirements. Regenerative braking is not terribly efficient. Diesel-electric locomotives also have such brakes but in addition carry large resistors on the roof to dissipate excess power, since the chemistry of recharging tends not to allow very high efficiency. This would be different with Ultraconductors(tm) used as Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage (SMES)devices but those are a few years down the road. A SMES can recharge electronically and therefore almost instantaneously. - Jed ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 18:23:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23853; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:20:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:20:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ab01bf8563$4895da20$d9441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Autoionization or Positrinos-Negatrinos? Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:51:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jhn_w1.0.bq5.5C7mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex As I stated in a post Feb 28, 2000. >QEd stipulates that pair production can occur in collisions between charges; >dE = h/dt, and the Positive (Hydrogen) and Negative (Oxygen) ends of >water molecules can be consider constantly in collision in water in the liquid state. >Thus the ~ 0.48 ev binding energy is close to the proposed 0.40 ev energy required >for production of the Positrino-Negatrino Pair: >dE = 6.4E-20 joule = 6.626R-34 joule-sec/1.03E-14 sec Thus "Autoionization" might be; (-)H2O + H2O(+) <---> (-)H2O(+) + H2O rather than H2O <---> H+ + OH- or, 2 H2O <---> (H3O+) + OH-. Interestingly, when an ohmmeter is used to measure the resistance of water, the initial resistance is low and increases rapidly with time, indicating that the charges May be the large (~ 7.2 nanometer radius) Positrinos-Negatrinos that CANNOT flow into the external circuitry, but only flow enough to polarize the water (a displacement current) and increase the resistance, until "regular" electrons/ions enter the conduction process. When the ohmmeter field is removed the charges realign and the effect can be repeated. Could this be why "Pulsed Electrolysis Cells" tend produce larger OU effects? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 19:59:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05967; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:58:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:58:36 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <4e.26f9734.25f1e3c1 aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:57:53 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"r_WZ31.0.9T1.gd8mu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Just a few notes here as to what is going on with the H2K experiment. During the calibration runs I noticed a steep temperature rise at fill pressures below 20 torr. The temperature was fairly level from 70 to 300 torr with a 20 watt input. As I never had run at a fill below 20 torr I decided I needed to investigate these lower fill pressures. A problem with arcing over the entire (about 60 mm) length of the cathode showed up at fill <10 torr. I tried to minimize that by enclosing the cathode in an alumina sleeve. This improved things somewhat but these sleeves obtained from Alpha Aesar are expensive, $15 bucks for 100 mm length, and so I tried using quartz tubing, GE Type 214, that is much cheaper. It comes in two foot lengths and is easy to cut. Obtained from National Scientific Co. (215) 536-2577 www.quartz.com/quartz.html Good folks there. Will cut any length quartz needed, many sizes listed at the web site. The quartz sleeving works fine, keeping the main tube much cleaner by trapping the W vapor on the sleeve. I am now trying to find the best electrode geometry to hold a stable glow discharge at <20 torr fill pressures. It's not easy. The best I have come up with so far is a round anode tip and a 60 degree cone end for the cathode. The cone tip of the cathode is flush with the end of the quartz cathode sleeve. This causes the W atoms sputtered off the cathode to be deflected sideways to the sleeve which is goodness as they don't end up on the main tube wall, well most don't anyway. I have tried several shapes for the cathode tip, square, concave and rounded but cone shape seems the best. Mike Schaffer, any comments on geometry of electrodes? At fill pressures <10 torr the stability of the glow is very tricky, with the glow jumping over the entire 100 mm length of the cathode sleeve intermittently. This is not good for temperature measurements as it puts the glow outside the area of the sensor. I have tried various methods to try and stop this, all ending in failure. Filling the space between the main tube and sleeve with (1) Portland cement (grout) (2) ceramic clay. Aside from the time to prepare the tube with these cements, 2 to 3 days per tube, both methods caused the main quartz tube to crack in operation from uneven thermal expansion, plus I worry about unknown "stuff" affecting tube operation. With this in mind I have decided it's too much trouble at this time to try running at <10 torr, and so will concentrate at fills from 10 to 20 torr. As always comments and suggestions are most welcome. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 20:07:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30481; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:06:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:06:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005d01bf8492$41a09d80$d9441d26 fjsparber> References: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:02:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Resent-Message-ID: <"Efayd.0.0S7.dk8mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mitchell Jones >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:50 PM >Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. > >That is ~ 25,000 cal per 34 grams of H2O2. ***{When I see a mole, I normally call an exterminator. :-) --MJ}*** A highly exothermic reaction 2 H2O2 ----> 2 H2O + >O2. ***{OK, let me see if I can verify what you are saying. In my *Handbook of Chemistry & Physics*, 63rd edition, under "Selected Values of Chemical Thermodynamic Properties," I find a value of -44.88 kcal/mole listed as the heat of formation of H2O2. Just above, I find a value of -68.32 kcal/mole listed for H2O. In the accompanying writeup, the authors explain that the heats of formation refer to changes in the heat content (enthalpy) from one side of a reaction to another, when the indicated products are formed from elements in their thermodynamically stable states, at 298.15 deg. K and 1 atm. At 298.15 deg. K (i.e., 25 deg. C), H and O are thermodynamically stable as molecular gases: H2 and O2. The reactions indicated above, then, should be: (1) H2 (gas) + O2 (gas) --> H2O2 (liquid) - 44,880 cal/m (2) 2H2 (gas) + O2 (gas) --> 2H2O (liquid) - 68,320 cal/m Rewriting the above equations to facilitate comparison, we obtain: (3) 2H2 (gas) + 2O2 (gas) --> 2H2O2 (liquid) - 89,760 cal/m (4) 2H2 (gas) + 2O2 (gas) --> 2H2O + O2 - 68,320 cal/m Reversing reaction (4), we get: (5) 2H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) --> 2H2 (gas) + 2O2 (gas) + 68,320 cal/m Adding reaction (3) to reaction (5), we obtain: (6) 2H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) --> 2H2O2 (liquid) - 21,440 cal/m (7) Reversing (6), we get: 2H2O2 (liquid) --> 2H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) + 21,440 cal/m The above statement means that if we decompose liquid H2O2 into liquid H2O and O2 gas, beginning and ending at 1 atm and 25 deg. C, we will liberate 21,440 cal of heat into the surroundings per mole of H2O2 that we decompose. That's pretty close to the ~25,000 cal per mole number that you cited. Any comment? --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Go Figure. > >FJS [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 21:57:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30406; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:54:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:54:03 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 00:53:24 EST Subject: BLP looking to hire chemists To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"Qxa51.0.0R7.xJAmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Following posted on SPF Friday: Well, they [BLP] ran a half page ad last week in Chemical and Engineering News, the weekly news magazine of the American Chemical Society, advertising several positions for chemists (between 5 and 10 positions, from a hazy memory). Hopefully they will be "up to speed" in-house soon, and more answers will be forthcoming. [on subject of "hydrino compounds"] -- Regards, Carl Ijames ijames netaxs.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 22:46:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA13178; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:45:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:45:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000304004720.0073c8b4 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 00:47:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry In-Reply-To: <4e.26f9734.25f1e3c1 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TdS8g.0.mD3.U4Bmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:57 PM 3/3/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >The cone tip of the cathode is flush with the end of >the quartz cathode sleeve. This causes the W atoms sputtered off the >cathode to be deflected sideways to the sleeve which is goodness as >they don't end up on the main tube wall..... Vince, it sure would be nice to have some pictures of your apparatus. How about putting some up on your personal webspace on aol.com? If you don't wanna spring for a digital camera (absolutely the fastest way to get good images onto the web), you can take some film pictures and then get them scanned somewhere...like at your house with a $79 scanner from Office Depot. On the other hand, if this sounds like a big can of worms that would distract you from the experiment, then forget it. Words describing results are much better than photos of unfinished apparatus! Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 22:59:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16629; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:57:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:57:08 -0800 Message-ID: <20000304065707.7783.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:57:07 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Mills electrolysis experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"UneG42.0.l34.4FBmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Cathode: 28 meters of Ni wire in a cylindrical coil > Anode: 10 cm of Pt wire in a smaller coil inside the cathode > Electrolyte: 200 ml of 0.57M K2CO3 (active) or 0.57M Na2CO3 (control) > Stirring: yes, magnetically driven stir bar 750 rpm [snip] This seems like a small version of the Mills experiment tested by NASA personnel. The calorimetry is tricky. And although the NASA report did not investigate recombination, the behavior of that cell was very consistent with my experience with recombination (2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O). Recombination can become a significant fraction of the input power when the current density is low at the cathode. Therefore, if you do this test, collect the offgas and quantify recombinaiton. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 23:12:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA20258; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:11:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:11:05 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:10:26 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZjLgb.0.Sy4.8SBmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/3/00 10:47:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: > Vince, it sure would be nice to have some pictures of your apparatus. How > about putting some up on your personal webspace on aol.com? Good idea...IF I can figure out how to do it...it would be a break from flight simulator. I will look into it. > If you don't wanna spring for a digital camera (absolutely the fastest way to get good > images onto the web), you can take some film pictures and then get them > scanned somewhere...like at your house with a $79 scanner from Office Depot. I do have a digital camera, early model only 640 x 480 pixel. I do have a bunch of photos I could use too, and I will take some photo's of the new setup ect. > > On the other hand, if this sounds like a big can of worms that would > distract you from the experiment, then forget it. If I have to learn html then it will take some time but I won't let it interfere with H2K. > Words describing results > are much better than photos of unfinished apparatus! > > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International > little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 FAX > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 23:22:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22101; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:21:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:21:24 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <60.12bf16c.25f21351 aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:20:49 EST Subject: Re: Mills electrolysis experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"3Qvj33.0.FP5.pbBmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/3/00 11:00:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > Recombination can > become a significant fraction of the input power when the current density is > low at the cathode. Therefore, if you do this test, collect the offgas and > quantify recombinaiton. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer Agreed, recombination is significant, but lets allow for 100% recombination and run the cell _exactily_ as Mills did. Then, if there is excess heat try to pin it down with gas measurements. I suggest replicate first exactly as written then go for the extras. (I don't think Mills measured gas (open cell)) Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 23:24:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22541; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:23:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:23:40 -0800 Message-ID: <00f201bf85b2$c5363440$d9441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 00:22:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"OeIk83.0.4W5.ydBmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Jones To: Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 8:02 PM Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{When I see a mole, I normally call an exterminator. :-) --MJ}*** > > A highly exothermic reaction 2 H2O2 ----> 2 H2O + > >O2. > > ***{OK, let me see if I can verify what you are saying. In my *Handbook of > Chemistry & Physics*, 63rd edition, under "Selected Values of Chemical > Thermodynamic Properties," I find a value of -44.88 kcal/mole listed as the > heat of formation of H2O2. Just above, I find a value of -68.32 kcal/mole > listed for H2O. In the accompanying writeup, the authors explain that the > heats of formation refer to changes in the heat content (enthalpy) from one > side of a reaction to another, when the indicated products are formed from > elements in their thermodynamically stable states, at 298.15 deg. K and 1 > atm. At 298.15 deg. K (i.e., 25 deg. C), H and O are thermodynamically > stable as molecular gases: H2 and O2. The reactions indicated above, then, > should be: > > (1) H2 (gas) + O2 (gas) --> H2O2 (liquid) - 44,880 cal/m > > (2) 2H2 (gas) + O2 (gas) --> 2H2O (liquid) - 68,320 cal/m > > Rewriting the above equations to facilitate comparison, we obtain: > > (3) 2H2 (gas) + 2O2 (gas) --> 2H2O2 (liquid) - 89,760 cal/m > > (4) 2H2 (gas) + 2O2 (gas) --> 2H2O + O2 - 68,320 cal/m > > Reversing reaction (4), we get: > > (5) 2H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) --> 2H2 (gas) + 2O2 (gas) + 68,320 cal/m > > Adding reaction (3) to reaction (5), we obtain: > > (6) 2H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) --> 2H2O2 (liquid) - 21,440 cal/m > > (7) Reversing (6), we get: > > 2H2O2 (liquid) --> 2H2O (liquid) + O2 (gas) + 21,440 cal/m > > The above statement means that if we decompose liquid H2O2 into liquid H2O > and O2 gas, beginning and ending at 1 atm and 25 deg. C, we will liberate > 21,440 cal of heat into the surroundings per mole of H2O2 that we > decompose. That's pretty close to the ~25,000 cal per mole number that you > cited. > > Any comment? Sounds close to the Gibbs Free Energy of 25,400 cal /mole given in the CRC Bible. :-) Regards, Frederick > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > >Go Figure. > > > >FJS > > [snip] > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 23:27:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23670; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:25:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:25:59 -0800 Message-ID: <20000304073159.5030.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:31:59 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"d_zX7.0.ln5.6gBmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: Glow discharge behavior is dominated by the processes occurring at the cathode. A glow discharge is one wherein the emission of electrons from the cathode is by plasma processes, not by thermionic emission. The most common plasma process is secondary electron emission by energetic ion bombardment, but photo emission by photons emitted by the plasma can play a role in some situations, too. When a glow discharge is operated in what is called the "normal glow" mode, the current density at the cathode remains constant, and the area of the cathode glow increases or decreases as one varies the current...more current and the glow area gets larger to accomodate it. The glow area also depends on the gas pressure. As one lowers the gas pressure of a glow discharge, the cathode glow area increases and vice versa. This spreading of the glow occurs pretty much independently of the geometry. What happens when the glow completely covers the cathode? The voltage needed to sustain the discharge increases. This is called the "abnormal glow" mode. At first the voltage increase (with increasing current or decreasing pressure) is rather small, but eventually it gets large. This is probably the phenomenon that you are observing. > As I never had run at a fill below 20 torr I decided I needed > to investigate these lower fill pressures. > A problem with arcing over the entire (about 60 mm) length of the cathode > showed up at fill <10 torr. I tried to minimize that by enclosing the > cathode in an alumina sleeve. [snip] > The quartz sleeving works fine, keeping the main tube much cleaner > by trapping the W vapor on the sleeve. > > I am now trying to find the best electrode geometry to hold a stable > glow discharge at <20 torr fill pressures. It's not easy. The best I > have come up with so far is a round anode tip and a 60 degree cone > end for the cathode. The cone tip of the cathode is flush with the end of > the quartz cathode sleeve. This causes the W atoms sputtered off the > cathode to be deflected sideways to the sleeve which is goodness as > they don't end up on the main tube wall, well most don't anyway. I have > tried several shapes for the cathode tip, square, concave and rounded > but cone shape seems the best. Mike Schaffer, any comments on > geometry of electrodes? > > At fill pressures <10 torr the stability of the glow is very tricky, with > the glow jumping over the entire 100 mm length of the cathode sleeve > intermittently. [snip] The "abnormal glow" discharge is able to ionize gas just about anywhere in the tube. It will jump over long insulators to get through even a small joint or crack to get to even a little bit more cathode area. > This is not good for temperature measurements > as it puts the glow outside the area of the sensor. > With this in mind I have decided it's too much trouble at this time to > try running at <10 torr, and so will concentrate at fills from 10 to 20 > torr. If you want to run at lower pressure, you will have to increase the cathode area, or else find a way to heat the cathode enough that thermonic emission supplies the necessary electrons. Heater power will complicate your calorimetry, though. If your calorimetry is sensitive to geometry, then you either have to live within those restrictions or else change calorimetric technique to one that is less sensitive to geometrical variations. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 3 23:48:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23025; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:45:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:45:59 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <86.13729d5.25f2190d aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:45:17 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"eyqkL.0.fd5.qyBmu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/3/00 10:47:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: > Vince, it sure would be nice to have some pictures of your apparatus. How > about putting some up on your personal webspace on aol.com? > > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International > little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 FAX > Well that was easy...it took me about ten minutes to set up a web page on AOL. No pictures yet. URL is http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Too bloody long I say. I will try for something shorter if possible. Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 01:40:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA10587; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 01:38:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 01:38:08 -0800 Message-ID: <001101bf856a$8809e280$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000303154645.0132d384 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Mills electrolysis experiment Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:45:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"XTZ2B.0.Lb2.0cDmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > Input power: both steady DC and pulsed DC were explored. For the pulsed > DC, the voltage was a square wave that went from 1.6v to 1.9v (i.e. never > to zero). The cell drew current only during the 1.9v portion of the > waveform, which was 36% of the period. The frequency was 600 Hz. > Quoting from the book," an periodic square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 volts:" It is not clear to me what the 1.60 volts refers to, the lowest point of the square wave or the center point. I think the center point makes more sense which would make the square wave from 1.3V to 1.9V. This would keep the electrolysis current at very low levels during the "off" time. >..I am tempted to embark > upon a high fidelity replication of this experiment. > > Comments? - This seems like a good starting point for a replication. If you believe the Mills documentation, however, similar experiments have succeeded many times already. The most interesting new experiments would involve gas phase and high temperatures. The challenge would appear to be getting the highest OU results while keeping the catalyst from being lost or degraded and outputting the hydrino hydride. Yes, I know just getting it to work would be a breakthrough, but I have this habit of jumping ahead. You know, why settle for success when you jump ahead and fail? - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 05:26:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA13372; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 05:25:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 05:25:30 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: The Environment as a Political Football Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:37:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20000304133708718.AAA248 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"JpHgV.0.oG3.AxGmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, It makes one a bit woozy to read what the worst polluters have to say about their stands on environment, but here it is. http://www.nandotimes.com/noframes/front/story/0,2117,500176412-500230100-50 1115057-0,00.html By the way, Ralph Nader has announced his candidacy, and he has a real, long term, established record for protecting the environment. Gene may want to let him know about the progresses made in Cold Fusion. I've read quite a lot of stuff from the Nader camp, and I don't think they know that CF even exists anymore. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 06:35:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28831; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:34:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:34:09 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38C12D29.4885639E mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:35:05 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills electrolysis experiment References: <3.0.1.32.20000303154645.0132d384 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"DWNkz2.0.O27.XxHmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: Thanks to the diligence of George Holz, I am now aware of the detailed description of Mills Ni-light water experiments presented in ,"The Grand Unified THeory of Classical Quantum Mechanics", September 1996 Edition, p. 469-482...which book we have had for some time. A number of experiments are described. The one that appeals most has the following particulars: Cathode: 28 meters of Ni wire in a cylindrical coil ... Since the observed excess heat signal is so large... I am tempted to embark upon a high fidelity replication of this experiment. Rick Monteverde wrote: Please embark in due course by all means! Michael J. Schaffer wrote: This seems like a small version of the Mills experiment tested by NASA personnel. The calorimetry is tricky. And although the NASA report did not investigate recombination, the behavior of that cell was very consistent with my experience with recombination (2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O). Recombination can become a significant fraction of the input power when the current density is low at the cathode. Therefore, if you do this test, collect the offgas and quantify recombinaiton. Vince Cockeram wrote: Agreed, recombination is significant, but lets allow for 100% recombination and run the cell _exactily_ as Mills did. Then, if there is excess heat try to pin it down with gas measurements. I suggest replicate first exactly as written then go for the extras. (I don't think Mills measured gas (open cell)) George Holz wrote: This seems like a good starting point for a replication. If you believe the Mills documentation, however, similar experiments have succeeded many times already. The most interesting new experiments would involve gas phase and high temperatures. The challenge would appear to be getting the highest OU results while keeping the Jack Smith wrote: Would it be reasonable to try to detect beta rays from a Mill's - type experiment? Fred Sparber wrote: Very Easy. Hi Scott, It would be great if you try to replicate Mills Ni-light water experiments presented in ,"The Grand Unified ..." I agree with Rick and Vince that you should run as close as humanly possible to Mills' specifications. However, there may be some clever way to sample the off gas in the ambient air for some qualitative insights. This experiment would provide an opportunity to obtain spectroscopic data, and I hope you will really go after this. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 06:39:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30005; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:37:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:37:47 -0800 Message-ID: <012301bf85ef$699ae4e0$d9441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Low Presure Sodium Discharge Lamps Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:33:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF85AB.F1C22E80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"XtPFg1.0.hK7.x-Hmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF85AB.F1C22E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These should operate using Potassium in place of Sodium. And the glass should be compatible with either. At any rateone can get a good idea of the sizing and materials of the discharge tubes. http://www.lighting.philips.com/nam/catalog/display.cgi?page=78 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF85AB.F1C22E80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Philips Lighting - Product Information.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Philips Lighting - Product Information.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.lighting.philips.com/nam/catalog/display.cgi?page=78 [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.lighting.philips.com/nam/catalog/display.cgi?page=78 Modified=E02B2945EE85BF01AC ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF85AB.F1C22E80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 07:22:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06899; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:21:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:21:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000304101912.007ab100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 10:19:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Sci Am. hybrid vehicle article on line In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000303161753.00790b90 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Zshut3.0.jh1.fdImu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank Scudder wrote: > The general consensus of the EV group seems to be that not enough >attention has been paid to the electrical portion of the car. Which car? The Toyota, the Honda, or both? >The >batteries used are very small, and the cars are not usable as a pure >electric vehicle for driving in downtown areas, etc where it would be nice >to avoid increasing the pollution. That was a conscious design trade off. More batteries increase the weight and cost. Instead of being designed as an >electric vehicle using the ICE engine as an auxiliary to keep the >batteries charged, the cars are the other way around. The electric is only >used for initial startup, and the car runs as an ICE the rest of the time. Well, that strikes me as sensible way to do things. The ICE pushes the drive train directly when it is running at maximum efficiency with minimum pollution, in the "sweet spot." As I said it reduces pollution by about 80%. Both cars get about 70 to 80 mpg. Other hybrids get 100 to 110 mpg, but they cost more. I guess if half the vehicles on the road used this, the U.S. would probably be exporting oil, and most metropolitan areas would meet EPA standards. It seems to me we are faced with two choices: 1. Use this technology today and solve most of our problems, while we bolster experience with electric propulsion. 2. Wait around for improvements in batteries and superconductors that would allow "pure electric" cars, or fuel cells. Meanwhile pollution and oil prices will increase. What is the expression? The "best" is the enemy of "good enough." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 07:48:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15187; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:48:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:48:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000304104604.0079f560 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 10:46:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: GM EV-1 recall In-Reply-To: <380992634.952131432096.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sr5-P2.0.Cj3.p0Jmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: I suspect California drivers are likely to proceed at speeds considerably in excess of those in Japan. On the highways they do, but not in town. Japanese highways are very hilly, and the speed limit is 80 to 100 kph. Cities like San Francisco have streets with extremly steep climb requirements. They cannot much steeper than the ones in Japan! I have been to San Francisco only once, but it did not strike me as being so extreme. About the same as Kobe. (I have looked around for the elevations of S.F. and Kobe, but I cannot find them.) Most places in Japan have steep hills. Look at the 2/22 photo on this web page: http://www.total.co.jp/town-kuka/kyoukuka.htm The roads go straight up that hill in back, and so does the postman on the moped. The whole Pacific rim looks like that. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 09:44:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22062; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:43:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:43:02 -0800 Message-ID: <20000304174451.14174.qmail web120.yahoomail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:44:51 -0800 (PST) From: ron kita Subject: Lockheed/Antigravity patent/Popular Mechanics To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"rULih.0.eO5.biKmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the current issue of Popular Mechanics (KGB Story on cover) they cite that they published the A_G/UFO patent issued to Lockheed on Sept10,1963. see page 71 I may have seen the "recent" article ....it was probably a "yawn" BUT....I may have missed it. I merely assume that was a circular disc- shaped flying craft. Anyone seen the patent? Best, Ron Kita __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 09:55:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26292; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:53:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:53:59 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Sci Am. hybrid vehicle article on line Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:05:19 -0500 Message-ID: <20000304180519312.AAA212 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"H3Qss.0.dQ6.ssKmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >I guess if half the vehicles on the road used this, the U.S. would probably >be exporting oil, and most metropolitan areas would meet EPA standards. It >seems to me we are faced with two choices: > >1. Use this technology today and solve most of our problems, while we >bolster experience with electric propulsion. > >2. Wait around for improvements in batteries and superconductors that would >allow "pure electric" cars, or fuel cells. Meanwhile pollution and oil >prices will increase. > >What is the expression? The "best" is the enemy of "good enough." > >- Jed Or one can do both. Most families in the US are at least 2 car families. I would guestimate that the number would be somewhere around 60 million families. A pure electric car is perfect for 90% of the driving that most people do. It's the other 10% that is the snag, and the auto companies are trying to force a 100% solution to the problem, while keeping the oil companies in business. So they offer a hybrid, and talk about the future of pure electric cars, which of course is lying nonsense. None of the major auto companies, including GM are offering a sensible, economical pure electric car, simply because they don't want to do that. They all could do it in less than three days. These hybrids that are being offered are just as untested, and can be assumed to be just as unreliable, as the fuel cell offerings. The auto companies are missing out on a huge market of ~60 million of people that would be perfectly willing and eager to have a pure electric *second* vehicle for the 90% of the driving that they do. Instead, GM and others are flat out telling the public that they don't want a pure electric car as any car, much less as a second car. They know that a sensible electric car would last for 30 years, and not require a major overhaul after five years. They know that a pure electric second vehicle driven 90% of the time would not burn any oil or natural gas products. So they offer a generation of overly complicated, gas burning hybrids, and start working on natural gas fuel cells. In the meantime they will continue to hinder, stall, and crush any pure electric competition, and stifle the development of battery, superconductor and other technologies for as long as they can get away with it. The one and only reason that we have seen any recent development of alternative vehicles is because this is an election year, and the auto companies have to show something for their politicians to point at, and say to the public "Here Government and Industry are Working hand in hand to help Clean up the Environment". Of course, these are the same government and industries that trashed it all in the first place, and made a fortune acting like they were cleaning it up. You just can't keep defending the corporate establishment, when it is painfully obvious that they are solely in the business of keeping you under their control until they decide that it is time for you to die. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 12:28:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00605; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:27:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:27:10 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:22:28 -1000 To: Ernest Abrams , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Yesterday's MM Network testing timeslip Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"36aQA2.0.M9.T6Nmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ========================================================= Company: Media Matters Slip Number: 197 Slip Type: Time Slip Slip Date: 3/3/2000 Location: Off Site DESCRIPTION: RM - Testing AppleShareIP ACT! connectivity issues over remote connections with Ernest and Elaine. Time Type: Time Fixed Time Amt: N/A Start Time: 5:15 PM End Time: 6:30 PM Unbillable Hrs: Total Net Hrs: 1.25 Hourly Rate: 30 Total Dollars: 37.5 Assoc Initial: RM Bill Status: No Invoice No.: ========================================================= ************************************************* SLIPS SUMMARY TOTAL SLIPS: 1 TOTAL HOURS: 1.25 UNBILLABLE HOURS: TOTAL NET HOURS: 1.25 TOTAL DOLLARS: $37.5 ************************************************* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 16:03:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22196; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:58:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:58:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:58:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list eskimo.com Subject: science toy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"gkQSd1.0.QQ5.vCQmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.x10.com/products/vk45a_kit_components.htm This is a color CCD security camera with 2.4GHz transmitter and receiver. Folks on the TAP-L forum are using them for physics demonstrations. These things have been around for awhile, but usually for about $300 total for the separate parts. This "x10" company is having a sale, and the kit is $80 total (and $50 each for individual camera/transmitters, which is quite a deal for a color CCD.) They are said to use standard coaxial power plugs at 12Vdc, and at least one person has had success running his with a battery pack. Put one in your "antigravity" drop tower demo? Spin it on a rotating table for Coriolous-ity? Lash it to an RC model helicopter or blimp? Wireless webcam? Drive it around with a remote controlled toy car? Become a Cyranoid Controller, and monitor your puppets via their forehead-cams! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 18:51:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30060; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:47:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:47:20 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <75.205218f.25f32491 aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 21:46:41 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"UvoPN.0.ZL7.ugSmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have added a couple of photos to my web page. These are images dating back about a year. I am working on getting photos of the present setup showing tube construction and such. URL is: http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 19:17:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05995; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:13:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:13:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 17:12:56 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Yesterday's MM Network testing timeslip Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"n9Pc91.0.VT1.33Tmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'd like to thank Interland Inc. web hosting services their bad/no maintainence of their mail servers for routing my private email to public listservers. F*** You Very Much guys! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >========================================================= >Company: Media Matters >Slip Number: 197 ... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 19:31:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10603; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:27:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:27:33 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 22:27:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: science toy Resent-Message-ID: <"42fxg3.0.bb2.bGTmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have some earlier versions of those cams. X10 has been running promo offers for some time now. The ones that I got came with a separate transmitter (in a box similar to the receiver, with 3 RCA jacks for video/audio inputs). The camera itself is on a long cable with an RJ12 jack that plugs into a little adapter that plugs into the RCA jacks on the transmitter. (The separate transmitter is actually more useful, IMO, since you can use it with any audio/video source.) With this version, they have integrated the transmitter into the camera mount. The transmitter/cam that I have requires 12V/200ma, so powering it from a battery pack should be easy. Some things to consider: 1) these cams require lots of light, 2) they have a manual focus, and 3) both the xmit and recv antennas are directional, for best results they must be facing each other, so you may have trouble if the camera is moving. Also, if you look at http://www.x10.com/images4/vk45a.jpg, you can see that the camera arm has a very limited articulation. The transmitters and receivers that I have can be switched to any of 4 channels. One would hope that the integrated cam/xmitter has a channel selector as well... Nevertheless, it is still good value for the $$$... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 4 19:39:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13019; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:34:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:34:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000304213606.00749c90 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 21:36:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry In-Reply-To: <75.205218f.25f32491 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ttnnc.0.HB3.INTmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:46 PM 3/4/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >I have added a couple of photos to my web page. Great work, Vince! I'm beginning to suspect that a photo could well be worth 1500 words in some cases. BTW, your 640 pixel camera should be just perfect for web images. That's about as big as you ever want the image anyway. Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 00:21:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA28501; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:14:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:14:42 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 03:14:03 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"AXdJs2.0.Fz6.nTXmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/4/00 7:36:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: > At 09:46 PM 3/4/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > >I have added a couple of photos to my web page. > > Great work, Vince! I'm beginning to suspect that a photo could well be worth > 1500 words in some cases. > > > Scott R. Little EarthTech International > little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 > http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 FAX > > Ah yes Scott, I think a lot more than just 1500 words. Thanks for the encouragement. Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 00:24:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA14074; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:20:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:20:29 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <72.1daf075.25f372a4 aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 03:19:48 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"XsoXA2.0.pR3.BZXmu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have modified my homepage to allow much faster loading and also added a graph of the current H2 calibration runs. Check often for updates as I will be replacing the present photos with ones of the present setup and will add data to the graph as additional runs are completed > URL is: http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 7002-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 00:47:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA02271; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:43:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:43:34 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 03:42:52 EST Subject: Re: science toy To: vortex-l eskimo.com, sciclub-list@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA02239 Resent-Message-ID: <"Z62YW2.0.LZ.nuXmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 05/03/00 01:01:25 Paris, Madrid, billb eskimo.com a écrit : > http://www.x10.com/products/vk45a_kit_components.htm > > This is a color CCD security camera with 2.4GHz transmitter and receiver. > Folks on the TAP-L forum are using them for physics demonstrations. These > things have been around for awhile, but usually for about $300 total for > the separate parts. This "x10" company is having a sale, and the kit is > $80 total (and $50 each for individual camera/transmitters, which is quite > a deal for a color CCD.) > > They are said to use standard coaxial power plugs at 12Vdc, and at least > one person has had success running his with a battery pack. > > Put one in your "antigravity" drop tower demo? Spin it on a rotating > table for Coriolous-ity? Lash it to an RC model helicopter or blimp? > Wireless webcam? Drive it around with a remote controlled toy car? > Hi William and all, Yes, this is a wonderfull tool, I use already this kind of UHF-TV CCD-camera in some R/C Flying Drones, look at the UXAV-02 project in my web site. The camera with its 2.4 GHz emitter and its own battery have a weight of 110 gr !!! and the signal can be received up to 500 meters. See the top left picture about the CCD camera apparatus with the receiver and the camera ( the top right picture) at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/images/uxav02eq.jpg The rectangular black box is the receiver ( the green disk is the UFH antenna ) and the small box on the right of the pict is the flying cam.... The full details of the UXAV ( Unmanned eXperimental Aerial Vehicle ) can be seen at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/ardaflt1.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 08:42:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31393; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:40:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:40:58 -0800 Message-ID: <001501bf86c1$61f94740$63627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: Subject: Re: Yesterday's MM Network testing timeslip Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:39:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"_EZQB2.0.Ng7.Quemu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remember when our privacy was assurred? I don't. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Monteverde To: Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 10:12 PM Subject: Re: Yesterday's MM Network testing timeslip > I'd like to thank Interland Inc. web hosting services their bad/no > maintainence of their mail servers for routing my private email to > public listservers. F*** You Very Much guys! > > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > >========================================================= > >Company: Media Matters > >Slip Number: 197 ... > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 09:03:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05545; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:58:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:58:21 -0800 Message-ID: <38C291F1.9358D302 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 18:57:21 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moon gravity References: <3.0.6.32.20000217094009.007a36f0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000217091017.0133f320@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1dm3p2.0.WM1.i8fmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, If you still interesting on the measurement, I suggest the following: Hang a mass about M=1 Kg with a spring above the balance. Adjust the position of the mass so it touch the balance plate with few grams. Save this value as mt. Now you are ready to measure the change on the gravitational field. To calibrate the system, pu t an additional Calib_Mass=1 gr on the plate or on the hanged mass (both are equivalent because they are mechanically bounded) and check the new value. It may be little less than 1 gr. for example Calib_Val=0.97 gm. If the balance change by the variation of the Moon (It would be) naming the new value as mt' due to g': actual weight can be calculated as k = (Calib_M / Calib_V) M' = M + (mt' - mt) * k and the variation of g would be g'/ g = M' / M There is little error here as mt' is not measured respecting the new g'. but assuming mt << M. this error may be ignored. For correcting the error, one should replace mt' with mt' * (g/g') M' = M + (mt'.(g/g') - mt) * k g'/g = 1 + (mt'.(g/g') / M - mt / M) * k this lead to 2'nd order equation say x = g'/g x = 1 + k.mt' / x / M - k.mt / M x^2 = x + k.mt'/M - k.mt/M . x x^2 + (k.mt/M-1).x - k.mt'/M = 0 {1) To check the correctness of the formula assume there is no spring as you original experiment. mt = mt' = M, k=1 this lead x^2 + 1 - 1.x - 1 = 0 x^2 - x = 0 x = g'/g = 1 It seems to me that I succeed to write it without using Newtons. :) Regards, hamdi ucar Scott Little wrote: > > At 08:42 AM 2/17/00 -0600, Bob Fickle wrote: > > >Your balance is probably just that: > > Wow! That one DIDN'T hit me!...but it is obviously correct. How > interesting: a "balance" actually measures the ratio of the unknown > object's mass to the test masses inside. The same result would be obtained > in any uniform gravitational field. > > However, I am certain that the same result would have been obtained on a > sensitive spring scale where the true weight (i.e. force exerted by > gravity) is measured. I believe that is how modern analytical balances > operate...they don't have a bunch of internal weights and a mechanically > complex mechanism to place them on the beam as you turn the knobs (like my > old Mettler). The reason I came up with would apply to a spring scale with > 0.0001 g readability as well. > Let's see if anybody else can come up with it...it's pretty obvious, once > you see it. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 09:14:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA09549; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:11:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:11:28 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:11:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety Resent-Message-ID: <"SkJPL2.0.7L2._Kfmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > NOT YOUR BLING BLANG HANDS!!!! the back of the finger thing was not suggested as a voltage test, rather as extra added insurance. when I said 'believe to be safe' I meant that you've turned the power off, discharged all the caps, etc... even the stuff that you think is safe will sometimes surprise you. recently, at work, I got a prototype, with a small switcher delivering +5 and +-12. after turning it on, and working with it for a while, I thought I smelled something. I turned it off, started feeling around to see what was getting hot. Got a nasty shock. Turned out that the person who had assembled it (a senior hardware engineer!) had reversed hot and neutral on the AC entry... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 09:28:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15897; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:27:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:27:13 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:25:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Resent-Message-ID: <"skYa12.0.Ju3.nZfmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{I have remained unsure that I have correctly calculated the energy of decomposition of hydrogen peroxide, due to ambiguities in the analysis that I posted on Friday, and so I am going through the calculation again. In an attempt to clarify, I propose the following stipulation: when a chemical symbol is followed by a pound sign (#) it represents the formula weight of that substance, in grams, in its thermodynamically stable state at 1 atm and 25 deg. C. Thus 6H2O represents 6 molecules of water, and 6H2O# represents 6(2 + 16) = 18 grams of water in liquid form at 1 atm and 25 deg C. In my *Handbook of Chemistry & Physics*, 63rd edition, under "Selected Values of Chemical Thermodynamic Properties," I find a value of -44.88 kcal/mole listed as the heat of formation of H2O2. Here is what I take that to mean: (1) H2# + O2# = H2O2# - 44,880 cal In other words, 2 grams of standard hydrogen plus 32 grams of standard oxygen is equivalent to 34 grams of standard hydrogen peroxide, but the heat content of the hydrogen peroxide is going to be missing 44,880 calories less, because that heat has been converted to chemical energy within the hydrogen peroxide molecules. In the same table, I find a value of -68.32 kcal/mole listed for H2O. Thus we have: (2) 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 68,320 cal Rewriting the above equations to facilitate comparison, we obtain: (3) 2H2# + 2O2# = 2H2O2# - 89,760 cal (4) 2H2# + 2O2# = 2H2O# + O2# - 68,320 cal Reversing reaction (4) and moving the heat content back to the right side, we get: (5) 2H2O# + O2# = 2H2# + 2O2# + 68,320 cal Adding reaction (3) to reaction (5), we obtain: (6) 2H2O# + O2# = 2H2O2# - 21,440 cal Reversing (6) and moving the heat content back to the right side, we get: (7) 2H2O2# = 2H2O# + O2# + 21,440 cal The above statement means that if we decompose 68 grams of standard H2O2 into 36 grams of standard H2O and 32 grams of standard O2, beginning and ending at 1 atm and 25 deg. C, we will liberate 21,440 cal of heat into the environment. Since 2H2O2# represents 2 moles of hydrogen peroxide, it follows that the heat of decomposition of hydrogen peroxide is 21440/2 = 10,720 cal/mole. The above reasoning is pretty much the same as before, but has been clarified considerably, and indicates that my earlier answer was twice as large as it should have been. Any comments, particularly criticisms, will be appreciated. I have quite frankly never used the "thermodynamic properties" data in my *Handbook* before (listed in the index under "Heat of formation of the elements"), and this is my attempt to comprehend the implications of that information. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 10:23:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01091; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:22:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:22:04 -0800 Message-ID: <38C2AA0F.9CDB185E ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 10:40:15 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Japan CF-Research Society formed References: <3.0.6.32.19990607180010.007a3870 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DwbZ92.0.qG.CNgmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: March 5, 2000 Vortex, Jed Rothwell wrote back in June 7, 1999, With snips: > On March 29 and 30 the first meeting of the Japan CF-Research Society (JCF) > was held at the Osaka University Convention Center. > The society is supposed to have a Web page, which I presume will be in > Japanese. I have suggested to the organizers that they include some English > translations by me. The page is not functional yet, or I spelled it wrong. > It is (was, will be): > > I noticed this posting while shifting messages around and checked on the promised web page. The Japan CF-Research Society web page is now functional. And they have included both the Japanese and English version of the web page. I think they have taken advice by more than one to heart ahd respected the international nature of the subject. Thanks, Jed. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 10:54:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10595; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:52:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:52:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:51:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Resent-Message-ID: <"nMnBD1.0.Tb2.upgmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] Thus 6H2O represents 6 molecules of water, and 6H2O# >represents 6(2 + 16) = 18 grams of water in liquid form at 1 atm and 25 deg >C. ***{That should of course be 108 grams, not 18 grams. --MJ}*** [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 11:03:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12870; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:00:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:00:49 -0800 Message-ID: <38C2BCD2.2CA2CC1 cyberus.ca> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 14:00:18 -0600 From: Gary Steckly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IE (Mallove) for McCain? References: <200003030431.XAA22166 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yZH4N1.0.x83.Xxgmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Gene Just curious if you also sent this information to the third (but rather invisible) democratic candidtate, Mr. Larouche. I know he was quite receptive to fusion research, and even cold fusion, at one time. I understand his campaign is picking up steam, and he even received more votes than Dubya in Detroit. If you sent him a similar package, I would be very interested in hearing how he responded. regards Gary "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote: > Akira, > > >March 1, 2000 > > > >Vortex, > > > >What with about 50% of radio time given over > >to commercials, many repeats and alternate > >hosts, I listen infrequently now to the Art > >Bell Show. Last night was an exception. He > >had his frequent visitor, Richard Hoagland of > >the Enterprise web site, on. > >In their conversation, Hoagland espoused his > >support for McCain since he, among all other > >candidates, expressed interest on matters > >close to his interests. Art Bell also likes > >McCain. > >Hoagland also mentioned that his friend, > >'Gene Mallove (Infinite Energy publisher), > >offered background information about cold > >fusion (alternative energy resources) to all > >of the presidential candidates during town > >meetings near where he lived and McCain was > >the only one that accepted the offer. > > That is true. His top advisor in NH came for a 1 hour briefing. Later > more materials were requested and sent to yet another McCain policy > advisor -- out of state. > > Steve Forbes' advisor in NH sent us a kind note, but never got back to us. > > So far no response from either Bush or Gore, but we hope to hear from > both of them before long. We'll see. In the meantime, we are pursuing > other government contacts, which we hope to be able to discuss in the not > too distant future. > > > You > >would have thought all of them would have > >accepted, given the fuel problem that was > >rising. > > I would have thought no such thing. We have been trying to interest > politicians in this for a decade, to almost no avail. > > >Is there to be a report on this in the > >forthcoming issue of IE? > > Yes. You'll see. > > > >-AK-. > > Gene Mallove > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 12:03:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01052; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:01:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:01:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:57:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: HV Circuit Safety Resent-Message-ID: <"873Up3.0.MG.fqhmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> NOT YOUR BLING BLANG HANDS!!!! > >the back of the finger thing was not suggested as a voltage test, >rather as extra added insurance. when I said 'believe to be >safe' I meant that you've turned the power off, discharged all >the caps, etc... > >even the stuff that you think is safe will sometimes surprise >you. recently, at work, I got a prototype, with a small switcher >delivering +5 and +-12. after turning it on, and working with it for a >while, I thought I smelled something. I turned it off, started >feeling around to see what was getting hot. Got a nasty shock. >Turned out that the person who had assembled it (a senior hardware >engineer!) had reversed hot and neutral on the AC entry... > >r ***{Yup. Back in the old days, before the government began forcing everyone to use polarized plugs, it was obvious that either side could be hot. Result: before feeling around in a circuit, it was standard practice to unplug the damn thing. But nowadays, since we are all titty babies who live safely under the benevolent protection of Uncle Sam, lots of people are dying for precisely the reason noted by you, above: too many of us assume that we know which side of an AC line is hot. The fact is, when we give up our property rights in exchange for "protection," all we do is give up our property rights. The protection which we are promised is never delivered. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 16:33:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14012; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:31:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:31:07 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: E-Car Battery Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:42:42 -0500 Message-ID: <20000306004242812.AAA235 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ZVyxP1.0.sQ3.Bnlmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, This new design of the lead acid battery charges in one hour, is maintenence free, recyclable, contains 60% less lead, no antimony, is 25% lighter than comparable Pb acid batteries, and has no heat problems. It has also been heavily road tested successfully for the last four years. http://www.electrosource.com/ Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 16:53:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17095; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:43:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:43:45 -0800 Message-ID: <006801bf870d$37567200$d1441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Positrino-Negatrino Reactions Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:41:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"k-p2l.0.1B4.0zlmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Assuming that Positrino-Negatrino Pairs are created in aqueous solutions or in the Hydrogen-Potassium Plasmas, each with a rest energy of 0.2 ev and a rest Radius, R = 7.2E-9 meters (R = kq^2/Energy)when they (Negatrinos) are captured they shrink in Radius according to how much energy is available, ie., the ionization energy of the alkali metal (or the Proton or Deuteron) that "absorbs" them: M+ + Negatrino ----> M* + ionization energy (Ei), R = kq^2/Ei (meters) Then: Neutralized Metal Radius (Angstroms) Li* 2.67 Na 2.80 K 3.31 Cs 3.61 D* or P* 2.81 Fermi ----> 0.53 Angstroms IOW, the "catalytic" action of K+ or Cs + ions, is that they Sequester and Donate the Negatrino to a Proton or Deuteron which can then provide the energy to shrink it to fractional orbit Radii, concurrently releasing UV, EUV, and/or X-ray energy as heat, and in the 3-5 Fermi radius range, initiate CF-Fission Reactions. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 18:01:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14787; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:56:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:56:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000305195813.0074bee0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 19:58:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vGf6R1.0.yc3.a1nmu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:25 AM 3/5/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >In the same table, I find a value of -68.32 kcal/mole listed for H2O. Thus >we have: > >(2) 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 68,320 cal This particular reaction is the one I always look at to see which way the quantities in the table are signed. Since there is no doubt that the burning of hydrogen in an oxygen atmosphere is exothermic, we can conclude that negative sign means heat is released by the reaction. I've always figured this convention was a deliberate ploy by chemists to confuse physicists trying to use their data.... Thus the reaction should be 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# + 68,320 cal Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 21:14:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23753; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:11:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:11:58 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:03:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Calculations Using Heat of Formation Resent-Message-ID: <"BkOHg.0.1p5.5upmu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >***{I have remained unsure that I have correctly calculated the energy of >decomposition of hydrogen peroxide, due to ambiguities in the analysis that >I posted on Friday, and so I am going through the calculation again. In an >attempt to clarify, I propose the following stipulation: when a chemical >symbol is followed by a pound sign (#) it represents the formula weight of >that substance, in grams, in its thermodynamically stable state at 1 atm >and 25 deg. C. Thus 6H2O represents 6 molecules of water, and 6H2O# >represents 6(2 + 16) = 18 grams of water in liquid form at 1 atm and 25 deg >C. > >In my *Handbook of Chemistry & Physics*, 63rd edition, under "Selected >Values of Chemical Thermodynamic Properties," I find a value of -44.88 >kcal/mole listed as the heat of formation of H2O2. Here is what I take that >to mean: > >(1) H2# + O2# = H2O2# - 44,880 cal > >In other words, 2 grams of standard hydrogen plus 32 grams of standard >oxygen is equivalent to 34 grams of standard hydrogen peroxide, but the >heat content of the hydrogen peroxide is going to be missing 44,880 >calories less, because that heat has been converted to chemical energy >within the hydrogen peroxide molecules. > >In the same table, I find a value of -68.32 kcal/mole listed for H2O. Thus >we have: > >(2) 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 68,320 cal ***{The above statement is in error. Since the formula weight 2H2O# given above represents 36 grams of water, or 2 moles, and since the value given in the table applies to H2O#, which is 18 grams of water, I should have doubled the heat content value given in the table, before using it. Since 2(68320) = 136640, equation (2) should have been: (2) 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 136,640 cal. Unfortunately, the above correction generates a string of secondary changes running through the rest of the analysis. Rather than chop the analysis into complete unintelligibility by introducing them one at a time, I am simply going to present the entire chain of reasoning, in corrected form, below: (1) H2# + O2# = H2O2# - 44,880 cal. In other words, 2 grams of standard hydrogen plus 32 grams of standard oxygen is equivalent to 34 grams of standard hydrogen peroxide, but the heat content of the hydrogen peroxide is going to be 44,880 calories less, because that heat has been converted into chemical energy within the hydrogen peroxide molecules. In the same table, I find a value of -68.32 kcal/mole listed for H2O. Thus for the two moles in equation (2), below, we have: (2) 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 136,640 cal. Rewriting equations (1) and (2) to facilitate comparison, we obtain: (3) 2H2# + 2O2# = 2H2O2# - 89,760 cal (4) 2H2# + 2O2# = 2H2O# + O2# - 136,640 cal Reversing reaction (4) and moving the heat content back to the right side, we get: (5) 2H2O# + O2# = 2H2# + 2O2# + 136,640 cal Adding reaction (3) to reaction (5) and deleting terms that appear on both sides, we obtain: (6) 2H2O# + O2# = 2H2O2# + 46,880 cal Reversing (6) and moving the heat content back to the right side, we get: (7) 2H2O2# = 2H2O# + O2# - 46,880 cal The above statement means that if we decompose 68 grams of standard H2O2 into 36 grams of standard H2O and 32 grams of standard O2, beginning and ending at 1 atm and 25 deg. C, we will reduce the amount of chemical energy by 46,880 cal (by converting it into heat). Since 2H2O2# represents 2 moles of hydrogen peroxide, it follows that the heat of decomposition of hydrogen peroxide is 46880/2 = 23440 cal/mole. Note that there were two errors in my original analysis which affected the result, not one. When I corrected the first error, I concluded that the true value was less than half of the one given by Fred Sparber. But, now that I have found and corrected the second error, the value I get is fairly close to Fred's again. --MJ}*** [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 21:17:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA31640; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:16:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:16:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000305195813.0074bee0 earthtech.org> References: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:15:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Calculations Using Heat of Formation Resent-Message-ID: <"Xb2I83.0.Ik7.Yypmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 11:25 AM 3/5/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>In the same table, I find a value of -68.32 kcal/mole listed for H2O. Thus >>we have: >> >>(2) 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 68,320 cal > >This particular reaction is the one I always look at to see which way the >quantities in the table are signed. Since there is no doubt that the >burning of hydrogen in an oxygen atmosphere is exothermic, we can conclude >that negative sign means heat is released by the reaction. I've always >figured this convention was a deliberate ploy by chemists to confuse >physicists trying to use their data.... > >Thus the reaction should be 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# + 68,320 cal ***{Yes, the way they are using the signs does seem a bit perverse. I did not see that before, because there was still another error lurking in my analysis. That error had the effect of reversing the sign of my calculated result, and made their sign usage seem plausible to me. However, now that I have recalculated the result and reversed the sign, I see the incongruity you have in mind. Nevertheless, I think there is method to their madness. Whereas a physicist is inclined to focus on heat in these types of situations, a chemist is inclined to focus on chemical energy. Since any change in chemical energy from one side of the equation to another involves an equal and opposite change in heat, I think that is the reason the signs are the way they are. Thus in the reaction 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 136,640 cal, there is 136,640 calories less chemical energy on the right side; hence the chemists gave that quantity a negative sign, and placed it on the right side. Naturally, since energy is conserved, the fact that there is 136,640 fewer calories of chemical energy on the right side means there is 136,640 *more* calories of heat on that side. Thus that is what the physicists would put in the table, if they were the one's making the decision. However, the data was collected by chemists, and so they tabulated it in a way that reflected the relative amounts of chemical energy, rather than the relative amounts of heat. That's my guess, at any rate. By the way, it sounds like you had to figure out how to use this table yourself, like me, based on the skimpy explanations in the *Handbook* itself. I'm sure there are detailed explanations of how to use this info somewhere--probably in some sort of specialized chemistry text--but I've never seen any. I will say this, though: when I first began to comprehend the interrelationships among the data in this table, I became very excited. This is tremendously powerful stuff. A significant portion of what chemists have learned in the past 300 years appears to be either explicitly contained in this table, or else implied by it. The mind reels at the implications. I have barely touched the ground in the past two days, just thinking about it. (Hell, my wife even became very enthusiastic today after supper, when I explained what these numbers mean and how to use them, and she is merely a systems analyst and computer programmer, not a physicist!) This is really important stuff, and I think everybody in this group who is serious about physics ought to add this type of calculation to his repertoire. (No incongruity there, by the way: chemistry is a branch of physics, whether chemists admit it or not. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International >little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 >http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 22:31:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18665; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 22:30:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 22:30:37 -0800 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:31:45 -0600 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN IS NOW AVAILABLE! Resent-Message-ID: <"Oka-L3.0.WZ4.C2rmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN 11445 East Via Linda, No. 416 Scottsdale, Arizona 85259 (480) 657-3722 josephnewman earthlink.net www.josephnewman.com FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (5 March, 2000) THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN IS NOW AVAILABLE! * The special, collectible energy machine is intended to demonstrate the functionality and operability of the technology. * Each Energy Machine unit will be individually autographed by Inventor Joseph Newman and serially numbered as Special Collectibles. Now is the time to offer a REAL, non-polluting energy alternative to enable everyone on the planet the opportunity to become energy independent! Tell your friends to visit the AUCTION SITE regarding exciting news for all of humanity! JOSEPH NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE NOW AVAILABLE AT AUCTION FOR THE FIRST TIME!!! ******************** www.josephnewman.com ******************** A NEW MILLENNIUM and a NEW ENERGY SOURCE "POWER TO THE PEOPLE!" -- Joseph W. Newman * IMAGINE a civilization with an access to virtually unlimited energy . . . * IMAGINE a new energy source that is abundant, inexpensive, and environmentally-friendly . . . * IMAGINE a stable and durable alternative to oil, gas, coal, and nuclear energy. . . * IMAGINE an electromagnetic Motor which runs "cool" and harnesses the elemental forces of the universe in complete accord with the First Law of Thermodynamics . . . * IMAGINE such a Motor powering the world ---- every automobile, appliance, home, farm, factory, ship, & plane --- at a FRACTION of the present cost of energy . . . * IMAGINE such a Motor enabling us to someday reach the stars -- safely and inexpensively . . . Such a technology now exists: *********************************** THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN *********************************** www.josephnewman.com (480) 657-3722 (When you visit www.josephnewman.com --- click on the link at the top of the page to take you to the auction site) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 23:45:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA31829; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:43:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:43:41 -0800 Message-ID: <009201bf8747$e56e44a0$d1441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Was The HRE-1 Self-Remediating? Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:41:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"A5_f62.0.An7.i6smu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The Homogeneous Reactor Experiment No. 1 (HRE-1,Oak Ridge) operated from 1952 to 1954 used enriched Uranyl Sulfate (greater than 90%) in concentration of 35 grams/kg H2O pressurized to 1,000 psig with a maximum fuel-solution temperature of 482 Deg F. If the Fission Process created Protons, and there was Positrino-Negatrino Pair Production, then the catalytic effect of the M+ or M++ ions/isotopes for the uptake of the Negatrino by the Proton to create the ~ 3.0 Fermi Radius P* species, Self Remediation should have occurred in the experiment: P* + Cs137 ----> Ba138(Stable) + Negatrino + ~.9.0 Mev P* + Sr90 ----> Y91 + Negatrino + ~9.0 Mev ---> Zr 91 (Stable) Since D2O was rather "pricey" back then, there wasn't any D* (to speak of)produced. Did anyone check the "ashes" after the experiment. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 5 23:49:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA12786; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:47:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:47:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000306075202.270.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:52:02 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"sZqFp2.0.h73.bAsmu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, Thanks for putting up your web page. If I understand the calibration data plot, the thermocouple temperature varies a lot while you vary the gas pressure, all the while keeping the input power constant at 20 W. Unless you think that there is already a variable excess power at low pressures, I think the data are telling you that heat is escaping by a second path that does not register the same way at your thermocouple. This makes your calorimetry suspect. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 02:05:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA20787; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 02:02:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 02:02:39 -0800 Message-ID: <20000306100207.5094.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.154] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN IS NOW AVAILABLE! Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 02:02:07 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"8-VpN3.0.f45.-8umu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If this is true why not do a live cam 24 hour a day example of this machine producing energy. It seems to me, after three days or so you will have millions of hits. That's what I'm going to do with Whirlpower very soon. I hope. :) I wish Joseph the best, I saw him when I was a kid on Carson. But surely the proof must be in the pudding. David Dennard http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-L eskimo.com >Subject: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN IS NOW AVAILABLE! >Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:31:45 -0600 > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN > 11445 East Via Linda, No. 416 > Scottsdale, Arizona 85259 > (480) 657-3722 > josephnewman earthlink.net > www.josephnewman.com > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (5 March, 2000) > >THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN IS NOW AVAILABLE! > >* The special, collectible energy machine is intended >to demonstrate the functionality and operability of >the technology. > >* Each Energy Machine unit will be individually >autographed by Inventor Joseph Newman and serially >numbered as Special Collectibles. > >Now is the time to offer a REAL, non-polluting energy >alternative to enable everyone on the planet the >opportunity to become energy independent! > >Tell your friends to visit the AUCTION SITE regarding >exciting news for all of humanity! > > > JOSEPH NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE > > NOW AVAILABLE AT AUCTION > FOR THE FIRST TIME!!! > > ******************** > www.josephnewman.com > ******************** > > A NEW MILLENNIUM > > and a > > NEW ENERGY SOURCE > > > "POWER TO THE PEOPLE!" > > -- Joseph W. Newman > > >* IMAGINE a civilization with an access to virtually > unlimited energy . . . > >* IMAGINE a new energy source that is abundant, > inexpensive, and environmentally-friendly . . . > >* IMAGINE a stable and durable alternative to oil, > gas, coal, and nuclear energy. . . > >* IMAGINE an electromagnetic Motor which runs "cool" > and harnesses the elemental forces of the universe > in complete accord with the First Law of > Thermodynamics . . . > >* IMAGINE such a Motor powering the world ---- > every automobile, appliance, home, farm, factory, > ship, & plane --- at a FRACTION of the present cost > of energy . . . > >* IMAGINE such a Motor enabling us to someday reach > the stars -- safely and inexpensively . . . > > Such a technology now exists: > > *********************************** > THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN > *********************************** > > www.josephnewman.com > > (480) 657-3722 > > >(When you visit www.josephnewman.com --- click on the link > at the top of the page to take you to the auction site) > > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 05:26:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA31108; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:25:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:25:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000306072706.00752898 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 07:27:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Calculations Using Heat of Formation In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000305195813.0074bee0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"I8wEH2.0.-b7.C7xmu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:15 PM 3/5/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >Since any >change in chemical energy from one side of the equation to another involves >an equal and opposite change in heat, I think that is the reason the signs >are the way they are. Thus in the reaction 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 136,640 >cal, there is 136,640 calories less chemical energy on the right side; >hence the chemists gave that quantity a negative sign, and placed it on the >right side. You're right about the magnitude but the sign is still wrong in the formula above. A cool mixture of H2 and O2 becomes a hot quantity of H2O vapor when the reaction proceeds. The heat quantity on the right side is definitely positive. The chemical energies aren't explicitly stated in the formula. The negative sign in front of the exothermic values in the table stems from the way chemists define the 1st law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy). dU = Q - W dU is the change in system energy Q is the heat flowing INTO the system W is the work done BY the system Following this convention, the Q associated with s system of H2 and O2 reacting is negative simply because heat flows OUT of the system when the reaction occurs. Scott R. Little EarthTech International little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 07:11:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05530; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:09:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:09:45 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000306072706.00752898 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.1.32.20000305195813.0074bee0 earthtech.org> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:08:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Calculations Using Heat of Formation Resent-Message-ID: <"Ljx0b.0.KM1.veymu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 11:15 PM 3/5/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>Since any >>change in chemical energy from one side of the equation to another involves >>an equal and opposite change in heat, I think that is the reason the signs >>are the way they are. Thus in the reaction 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 136,640 >>cal, there is 136,640 calories less chemical energy on the right side; >>hence the chemists gave that quantity a negative sign, and placed it on the >>right side. > >You're right about the magnitude but the sign is still wrong in the formula >above. ***{Not if they are thinking in terms of chemical energy. The 2H2O# on the right side represents 36 grams of water, whereas the 2H2# + O2# on the left side represents 4 grams of hydrogen plus 32 grams of oxygen. Those 36 grams of water on the right side contain 136,640 calories *less* chemical energy that the hydrogen and oxygen mixture on the left side, but that chemical energy did not cease to exist. Instead, it was transformed into 136,640 calories of *heat*. Thus when you say there is 136,640 calories *less* chemical energy on the right side, that is the same as saying there is 136,640 calories *more* heat. It is just a different way of saying the same thing. --MJ}*** A cool mixture of H2 and O2 becomes a hot quantity of H2O vapor >when the reaction proceeds. The heat quantity on the right side is >definitely positive. ***{Of course it is: the amount of heat on the right side is +136,640 calories, relative to that on the left side. --MJ}*** The chemical energies aren't explicitly stated in the >formula. ***{Of course they are: the amount of chemical energy on the right side is -136,640 calories, relative to that on the left side. (For example, there is more chemical bond energy in a woodpile than there is in the steam, CO2, and ashes that remain after the woodpile is burned. Thus if we are to denote the chemical bond energy of the steam, CO2, and ashes, relative to that in the woodpile, we must use a number with a negative sign.) --MJ}*** > >The negative sign in front of the exothermic values in the table stems from >the way chemists define the 1st law of thermodynamics (conservation of >energy). > > dU = Q - W > >dU is the change in system energy >Q is the heat flowing INTO the system >W is the work done BY the system > >Following this convention, the Q associated with a system of H2 and O2 >reacting is negative simply because heat flows OUT of the system when the >reaction occurs. ***{Even within this framework, the use of the negative sign still arises from the chemist's tendency to focus on the chemical bond energy rather than on the heat. To a chemist, "the system" includes the chemical bond relationships between atoms (the molecules), but does not include the kinetic energy relationships between molecules (the heat). By their way of thinking, "the system" starts in the form of 2H2# + O2#. Later, after undergoing a rearrangement of chemical bonds, "the system" takes the form 2H2O# - 136,640 calories. The latter number refers to calories of chemical bond energy, a form of potential energy, which have left what the chemist considers to be "the system." In other words, the sign is negative because energy left the chemical bonds of the system and was transformed into heat, which is considered to be *outside* of the system, in the chemist's way of thinking. A physicist, on the other hand, would draw the system boundaries loosely enough to include the heat. Result: instead of saying that there were 136,640 fewer calories of chemical bond energy on the right side, he would say that there were 136,640 more calories of heat on that side. Having said that, I would add that the table of values and associated commentary which we are discussing is not merely the product of a committee, but the evolved product of *generations* of committees. Result: the terminology, symbols, and sign conventions used in the *Handbook* are not going to neatly fit into any logical framework, and we are not going to get anywhere if we focus on the intentions of those who created these tables of information. The fact is that some of them thought of these data one way, and others thought of them other ways, and there is no way, after the fact, for us to know the details of their thought processes. All I would claim here, therefore, is that a reasonable way to interpret the sign usage in these tables is in terms of changes in the chemical energy balance rather than the heat balance. Once you adopt that point of view, all you have to do to extract heat balance information is to reverse the sign. And, on that point, I think we are in agreement. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Scott R. Little EarthTech International >little earthtech.org 4030 Braker Lane, Suite 300 >http://earthtech.org Austin Texas USA 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 FAX From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 09:26:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22571; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:21:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000306072706.00752898 earthtech.org> <3.0.1.32.20000305195813.0074bee0 earthtech.org> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:21:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Calculations Using Heat of Formation Resent-Message-ID: <"j3W4P2.0.QW5.ma-mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>At 11:15 PM 3/5/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >>>Since any >>>change in chemical energy from one side of the equation to another involves >>>an equal and opposite change in heat, I think that is the reason the signs >>>are the way they are. Thus in the reaction 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# - 136,640 >>>cal, there is 136,640 calories less chemical energy on the right side; >>>hence the chemists gave that quantity a negative sign, and placed it on the >>>right side. >> >>You're right about the magnitude but the sign is still wrong in the formula >>above. > >***{Not if they are thinking in terms of chemical energy. The 2H2O# on the >right side represents 36 grams of water, whereas the 2H2# + O2# on the left >side represents 4 grams of hydrogen plus 32 grams of oxygen. Those 36 grams >of water on the right side contain 136,640 calories *less* chemical energy >that the hydrogen and oxygen mixture on the left side ***{Technically, the reduction is in *potential* energy, and not entirely in *chemical* energy. The reason is that when hydrogen is burned to make water, the water comes off in gaseous form (steam), which means it contains some non-chemical potential energy (the heat of vaporization) which it will give up when it returns to the liquid state. Since the reduction in energy on the right side of the above equation consists partly of a reduction in chemical energy and partly in elimination of the heat of vaporization, a more accurate statement would be that the amount of *potential* energy on the right side is 136,640 calories less than on the left side. Nevertheless, this is a mere quibble. The point remains that the use of the negative sign rather than the positive one is just a different way of saying the same thing, analogous to saying a glass is half empty rather than half full. --MJ}*** , but that chemical >energy did not cease to exist. Instead, it was transformed into 136,640 >calories of *heat*. Thus when you say there is 136,640 calories *less* >chemical energy on the right side, that is the same as saying there is >136,640 calories *more* heat. It is just a different way of saying the same >thing. --MJ}*** [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 10:05:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32280; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:56:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:56:04 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:07:41 -0500 Message-ID: <20000306180741578.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"J1DjU1.0.Du7.p4_mu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >that negative sign means heat is released by the reaction. I've always >figured this convention was a deliberate ploy by chemists to confuse >physicists trying to use their data.... > >Thus the reaction should be 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# + 68,320 cal This would explain, along with the HO + HO reaction, at least some of the excess heat reported by the cavitation devices that produce H2O2. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 11:19:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24266; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:12:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:12:05 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:11:08 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"yRkCA2.0.uw5.wB0nu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/5/00 11:49:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > If I understand the calibration data plot, the thermocouple temperature > varies a lot while you vary the gas pressure, all the while keeping the > input power constant at 20 W. Gas pressure is never varied during a run, IOW, I pick a set pressure to run and hold for the entire run, also keeping input power at a constant 20 watts. The red diamonds on the graph are the steady state temperature minus the room ambient temperature reached for a particular fill pressure, and represent data for one run. > Unless you think that there is already a variable > excess power at low pressures, I think the data are telling > you that heat is escaping by a second path that does not > register the same way at your thermocouple. > This makes your calorimetry suspect. I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Remember that the 0.25 OD quartz tube is enclosed by a 0.50 id copper pipe and the thermocouple is attached to the outside of this pipe by a 8x32 machine screw. The copper pipe is enclosed in a 2 inch diameter steel can, 3 inches in height, with fiberglass insulation packed around the copper pipe/thermocouple assembly. Even with the insulation, the outside of the can gets quite hot during runs, >100 C, sizzle hot to the wet finger test. So yes, there is a significant heat loss through the can wall, but I don't understand what you mean by a "second path". These calibration runs are just to see what the tube temperatures go to with plain vanilla H2 fill. After I make a few more of these I will add the metallic K to the tube, seal it up and fire up the discharge at 20 watts to see if there is a temperature change. Nothing will be changed except the addition of K into the tube. Same tube, electrode geometry, fill pressure, heat sensor assembly and power input. This is not meant to be calorimetry, just comparing ( comparimetry? ) any heat output difference between H2 glow with H2K glow at different fill pressures, power input for all runs the same, at 20 watts. Dr. Mills theory ( and it's just a theory ) does say that auto catalysis of H atoms can occur but I don't know and I am not a theorist, and certainly not competent to comment on it. I can turn a screw but my math is in the ditch. Is it possible that this does occur at the low torr fill pressures explaining the steep temperature rise at fill pressures <30 torr? I don't know. I am working on putting up some photos of the heat sensor assembly and the present tube assembly, electrodes and such ASAP. Give me a day or so to get that done. Thanks much for your comments. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 Webpage: http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 11:36:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01465; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:30:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:30:11 -0800 Message-ID: <38C407CA.FA3F378D ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:32:28 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. References: <20000306180741578.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sSLRN1.0.jM.2T0nu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: > Scott writes: > >that negative sign means heat is released by the reaction. I've always > >figured this convention was a deliberate ploy by chemists to confuse > >physicists trying to use their data.... > > > >Thus the reaction should be 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# + 68,320 cal > > This would explain, along with the HO + HO reaction, at least some of the > excess heat reported by the cavitation devices that produce H2O2. No, that is not correct. Production of H2O2 requires energy. Consequently, production of H2O2 would not produce an excess. Once again the sign convention produces confusion. Just remember, the sign shows whether energy is being added to the container in which the reaction occurs, giving a positive sign, or is being lost, giving a negative sign. The view is from the environment in which the reaction occurs, not from the viewpoint of the equation. It is how an experimenter would look at the problem, not a theoretician (physicist). Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 15:15:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10373; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:12:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:12:37 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:11:51 EST Subject: H2K: new photos To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"HsepO.0._X2.bj3nu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have uploaded photos of the heat sensor assembly and the glow discharge tube assembly. This is the one I am presently using. If the link I have included below doesn't get through some servers I also include the URL. http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Click here: Hydrogen Potassium Glow Discharge Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 6 19:24:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20362; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:22:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:22:35 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <57.2b74f19.25f5cfcd aol.com> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:21:49 EST Subject: Re: Calculations Using Heat of Formation To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"a2VwH1.0._z4.wN7nu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since the subject of H2O2 has been going back and forth the following link may be of passing interest. Link and URL below: Click the link: Spaceflight Now Beal Aerospace or paste in the URL: http://spaceflightnow.com/news/0003/06bealtest/ Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 02:18:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA15575; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:11:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:11:03 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf8825$a1c6efc0$478e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Robin van Spaandonk" , Cc: Subject: Re: The Ammonium Ion vs The Potassium Ion Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 03:08:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ynwio2.0.Hp3.tMDnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Do you think that the Griggs-Huffman-Potapov(Yusmar) pumps were "contaminated" with rotten Pee, Robin? 1, Urea (NH2-CO-NH2) + Urease + H2O ----> CO2 + 2 NH3 + (Urease) 2, 2 NH3 + 2 H20 <---> 2 NH4+ + 2 OH- " The Ammonium Ion acts chemically like the Alkali Metals, and in particular like the Potassium Ion, the two ions being of the same size and charge." Since ground water (that Jed is so fond of) usually contains ammonia from atmospheric electrical activity and human/animal wastes, this might be the "Secret Ingredient" that Scott forgot to add to his Yuri Potapov-Yusmar experiments. IOW, if it don't work, Piss on it. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 04:45:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA17900; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 04:40:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 04:40:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20000307124050.11161.qmail web108.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 04:40:50 -0800 (PST) From: ron kita Subject: Antigravity/PM/April issue To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"RNeix.0.XN4.JZFnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I went back to the bookstore to check....It is the April issue2000 on page 71. Only one sentence on the subject....if one has old copies of PM it was printed there probably in an A-51 article. It is not worth buying the magazine for only one sentence. Best, Ron Kita __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 09:30:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15177; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:25:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:25:45 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38C407CA.FA3F378D ix.netcom.com> References: <20000306180741578.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:21:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Resent-Message-ID: <"830VT.0.1j3.LkJnu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Michael T Huffman wrote: > >> Scott writes: >> >that negative sign means heat is released by the reaction. I've always >> >figured this convention was a deliberate ploy by chemists to confuse >> >physicists trying to use their data.... >> > >> >Thus the reaction should be 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# + 68,320 cal >> >> This would explain, along with the HO + HO reaction, at least some of the >> excess heat reported by the cavitation devices that produce H2O2. > >No, that is not correct. Production of H2O2 requires energy. Consequently, >production of H2O2 would not produce an excess. Once again the sign >convention produces confusion. Just remember, the sign shows whether energy >is being added to the container in which the reaction occurs, giving a >positive sign, or is being lost, giving a negative sign. The view is from >the environment in which the reaction occurs, not from the viewpoint of the >equation. It is how an experimenter would look at the problem, not a >theoretician (physicist). > >Ed Storms ***{We seem to have two options: (1) We can take the course suggested by you, and speak of heat lost or gained through the walls of the presumed reaction vessel. From that perspective, when 2H2# + O2# becomes 2H2O#, 136,640 calories of heat flows out through the wall the reaction vessel, and so we denote that flow by a negative sign. There are several difficulties with this approach: (a) The experimenter is outside the calorimeter, not in it. Thus a flow of heat out of the reaction vessel is a flow *into* the region occupied by the experimenter, and, intuitively, ought to have a positive sign. (b) Worse, the quantity of heat inside the reaction vessel is increasing, not decreasing. Thus even from the perspective of the inside of the vessel, a positive sign seems called for. (c) Reactions do not merely take place in "reaction vessels," but also in nature; hence the habit of assuming the existence of a reaction vessel impairs the applicability of these concepts to the real world. (2) As an alternative, we can cease to think of these numbers in terms of "heat of formation," and begin to think of them in terms of *changes in molecular potential energy*. In that case, when 2H2# + O2# becomes 2H2O#, molecular potential energy is reduced by 136,640 calories, and that change is appropriately denoted by a negative sign. The advantage of this view is that it is devoid of arbitrary particularizing assumptions, and thus of generalized applicability. You don't have to pretend there is a reaction vessel when there is not, or that you are inside it rather than outside. And if you want to obtain intuitively plausible numbers for heats of formation, you just reverse the signs of the numbers given in the table. The only "difficulty" with this approach is that it puts one in the position of deviating from common usages and interpretations, thereby creating the potential for disputes with those who follow the beaten path. Of course, from my perspective, that is yet another advantage: disputes about intellectual issues are the maximally efficient path to understanding, for those who are able to focus on what is right, rather than on who is right. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 10:35:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29439; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:21:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:21:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38C54933.A1C58E0F ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:23:49 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. References: <20000306180741578.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cjpLg3.0.vB7.yYKnu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael, The sign convention is just that, a convention we will not change no matter how you argue the logic. The only issue is to adopt a view point that allows a person to remember the convention and use it correctly. The world is filled with arbitrary conventions that have little logic. It is a waste of time to try to change these. I know you have a hard time with this concept. However, this is your problem, not mine. Ed Storms Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Michael T Huffman wrote: > > > >> Scott writes: > >> >that negative sign means heat is released by the reaction. I've always > >> >figured this convention was a deliberate ploy by chemists to confuse > >> >physicists trying to use their data.... > >> > > >> >Thus the reaction should be 2H2# + O2# = 2H2O# + 68,320 cal > >> > >> This would explain, along with the HO + HO reaction, at least some of the > >> excess heat reported by the cavitation devices that produce H2O2. > > > >No, that is not correct. Production of H2O2 requires energy. Consequently, > >production of H2O2 would not produce an excess. Once again the sign > >convention produces confusion. Just remember, the sign shows whether energy > >is being added to the container in which the reaction occurs, giving a > >positive sign, or is being lost, giving a negative sign. The view is from > >the environment in which the reaction occurs, not from the viewpoint of the > >equation. It is how an experimenter would look at the problem, not a > >theoretician (physicist). > > > >Ed Storms > > ***{We seem to have two options: > > (1) We can take the course suggested by you, and speak of heat lost or > gained through the walls of the presumed reaction vessel. From that > perspective, when 2H2# + O2# becomes 2H2O#, 136,640 calories of heat flows > out through the wall the reaction vessel, and so we denote that flow by a > negative sign. > > There are several difficulties with this approach: > > (a) The experimenter is outside the calorimeter, not in it. Thus a flow of > heat out of the reaction vessel is a flow *into* the region occupied by the > experimenter, and, intuitively, ought to have a positive sign. > > (b) Worse, the quantity of heat inside the reaction vessel is increasing, > not decreasing. Thus even from the perspective of the inside of the vessel, > a positive sign seems called for. > > (c) Reactions do not merely take place in "reaction vessels," but also in > nature; hence the habit of assuming the existence of a reaction vessel > impairs the applicability of these concepts to the real world. > > (2) As an alternative, we can cease to think of these numbers in terms of > "heat of formation," and begin to think of them in terms of *changes in > molecular potential energy*. In that case, when 2H2# + O2# becomes 2H2O#, > molecular potential energy is reduced by 136,640 calories, and that change > is appropriately denoted by a negative sign. > > The advantage of this view is that it is devoid of arbitrary > particularizing assumptions, and thus of generalized applicability. You > don't have to pretend there is a reaction vessel when there is not, or that > you are inside it rather than outside. And if you want to obtain > intuitively plausible numbers for heats of formation, you just reverse the > signs of the numbers given in the table. The only "difficulty" with this > approach is that it puts one in the position of deviating from common > usages and interpretations, thereby creating the potential for disputes > with those who follow the beaten path. Of course, from my perspective, that > is yet another advantage: disputes about intellectual issues are the > maximally efficient path to understanding, for those who are able to focus > on what is right, rather than on who is right. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 11:02:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07817; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:51:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:51:52 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <57.2b74f19.25f5cfcd aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:50:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Calculations Using Heat of Formation Resent-Message-ID: <"PFlX33.0.3w1.3_Knu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Since the subject of H2O2 has been going >back and forth the following link may >be of passing interest. Link and URL below: > > Click the link:HREF="http://spaceflightnow.com/news/0003/06bealtest/"> Spaceflight Now Beal >Aerospace > > or paste in the URL: > > http://spaceflightnow.com/news/0003/06bealtest/ > >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas ***{That's an interesting article. They are using kerosene as the fuel and hydrogen peroxide as the oxidant, according to the writeup. There are lots of hydrocarbons that fall in the kerosene range (C9H20 to C14H30), so I'll run some very rough numbers for C14H30 and see what I get. In that case, we would have 43H2O2 + C14H30 --> 14CO2 + 58H2O. That means we decompose 43 hydrogen peroxide molecules for every kerosene molecule burned. Since the decomposition of H2O2 yields about 23440 cal/mole, and the burning of kerosene yields about 11,000 cal/gram, we have 43H2O2# + C14H30# = 14CO2# + 58H2O# - 43(23440) - 198(11000) = 14CO2# + 58H2O# - 3,185,920 cal. Hence this mix of propellants yields 3185920/1660 = 1919 cal/gm. According to the article, the engine consumes 3,000 lbs of fuel per sec and generates 6.7 million horsepower. Now 3000 lbs = 1,363,636.4 grams, so at 1919 cal/gram we have 2.62(10^9) cal/sec. That gives 2.62(10^9)(3.087)/550 = 14.7 million horsepower in terms of heat conversion. Since they only got 6.7 million horsepower in terms of thrust, the efficiency of the rocket is 6.7/14.7 x100 = 46%. This calculation is very rough, for reasons that are fairly obvious, but it still leaves me surprised that such a high percentage of the heat produced by this motor is being converted into useful work. My recollection is that rocket motors are usually far less efficient than this. (My memory may be incorrect. I have a copy of *Rocket Propulsion Elements* by Sutton around here somewhere, but I can't seem to put my hands on it at the moment.) --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 11:05:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27279; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:53:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:53:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000307134500.007d5940 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 13:45:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. In-Reply-To: <38C54933.A1C58E0F ix.netcom.com> References: <20000306180741578.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sXgSa1.0.2g6.s0Lnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:23 AM 3/7/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Michael, The sign convention is just that, a convention we will not change no >matter how you argue the logic. The only issue is to adopt a view point that >allows a person to remember the convention and use it correctly. The world is >filled with arbitrary conventions that have little logic. It is a waste of time >to try to change these. I know you have a hard time with this concept. >However, this is your problem, not mine. > >Ed Storms Yup, but convention should be uniform. Consider that power supplies are off by a - sign on the two sides of the Atlantic, because of an error by Ben Franklin. voltage = - 1 * the potential. On the other hand, Franklin coined the phrase "cold fusion". Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 11:16:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13398; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:12:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:12:29 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38C54933.A1C58E0F ix.netcom.com> References: <20000306180741578.AAA151 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 13:08:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: About the A4-V2. Resent-Message-ID: <"_T71E1.0.GH3.QILnu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Michael, The sign convention is just that, a convention we will not change no >matter how you argue the logic. The only issue is to adopt a view point that >allows a person to remember the convention and use it correctly. The world is >filled with arbitrary conventions that have little logic. It is a waste >of time >to try to change these. I know you have a hard time with this concept. >However, this is your problem, not mine. > >Ed Storms ***{You misunderstand. It is a matter of indifference to me whether the generally accepted sign convention changes or not. All I was doing was sketching out the choices available to those who want to make use of the information contained in the tables. My preference is to adopt a conceptualization which will facilitate my understanding of the world, even if that conceptualization differs from the norm, and I can do that regardless of the choices made by others. Moreover, that conceptualization is just as suited to using the table correctly as is the more usual one. For those who, like me, are indifferent to whether or not their worldview matches that of the majority, the sketching out of such alternatives is a useful exercise. What dyed-in-the-wool conformists do is of little concern to me. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 13:10:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06103; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 13:04:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 13:04:27 -0800 Message-ID: <003501bf8879$db141510$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <20000306075202.270.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:12:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Mh-x_2.0.EV1.RxMnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote, > If I understand the calibration data plot, the thermocouple temperature > varies a lot while you vary the gas pressure, all the while keeping the input > power constant at 20 W. Unless you think that there is already a variable > excess power at low pressures, I think the data are telling you that heat is > escaping by a second path that does not register the same way at your > thermocouple. This makes your calorimetry suspect. > Hi Vince, It would be a better experiment if Tc remained constant with a constant input power while varying pressure and without hydrino formation. The two paths that Michael mentions could be the top and bottom electrode connections which allow heat to be conducted away with different amounts ending up in the surrounding metal can. Since H might be a hydrino formation catalyst at low pressures under your discharge conditions, it is not clear if your result is caused by the pressure related changing of the heat distribution or by hydrino formation. One test that could help to clarify the thermal question would be to run low and high pressure tests with a noble gas such as argon or helium that cannot form hydrinos. If a constant Tc results from a constant input power without H present, it would strengthen the hydrino formation explanation, if Tc still varies with pressure, it suggests that the heat path is indeed varying as a function of pressure. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 15:14:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13106; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:12:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:12:18 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:11:38 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Electrode Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"vD3QA2.0.iC3.HpOnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/7/00 1:10:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, george varisys.com writes: > One test that could help to clarify the thermal > question would be to run low and high pressure tests with > a noble gas such as argon or helium that cannot form > hydrinos. If a constant Tc results from a constant input > power without H present, it would strengthen the hydrino > formation explanation, if Tc still varies with pressure, > it suggests that the heat path is indeed varying as a function > of pressure. > - > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East > Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > I could do that quite easily as I have an argon tank and it is attached to the system. Need to get the tank refilled though. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 17:05:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10380; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:01:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:01:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:01:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Vortex tectonics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA10353 Resent-Message-ID: <"wQyNE3.0.1Y2.rPQnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 16:17:13 -0700 From: Michael Mandeville To: William Beaty Subject: Please rely this to Vortex-L and any other appropriate Dear Vortex List: A few years ago I was a reader and poster on your list from which I developed certain ideas. During the past four years I have not been involved with the list simply because I had too many other research issues. But in recognition of some of the stimulous I received I have named a major new scientific paradigm for geology, geophysics, and plate tectonics partly in recognition of the Vortex group. The new paradigm is Vortex tectonics and it explains all issues of the formation of the earth's crust based on its irregular wobbling through the spin vortex. Below is the information which will link you into a huge amount of data related to it. If you have responses to it I shall be happy to entertain them directly to my email address at mwm aa.net but I am not currently subscribed to any lists. Press Release Re: Major New Scientific Work About Edgar Cayce And His Millennial Prophecies Is Unveiled On A CDROM. Release Date: Monday, March 6 , 2000 Contact: Michael W. Mandeville , 623-374-9585 Length: pages - 3, words - 851 BLACK CANYON CITY, Az ­ March 6, 2000 - Michael Mandeville, an Arizona author, unveiled on the Internet a major new title in literary science for a three volume trilogy, titled “The Return of the Phoenix”. The author, Michael Mandeville, announced that his website formally presents his work to the public for the first time by offering some of the chapters as webpages. The public will be able to hear Mandeville discuss his work in person on the Laura Lee Web Radio Show March 21st 7-8 PM (PST) at: http://www.lauralee.com/ Mandeville, who lives in Arizona’s Black Canyon, claims that the release of the work on CDROM makes both literary and scientific history with several firsts. He explains that it is the first time that a complete anthology of the psychic predictions of Edgar Cayce have all been assembled and explained. The author collected thousands of Cayce’s clues from the Cayce archives and condensed them into one summary story which he presents in “The Return of the Phoenix” as the story of the “World Epic”. Included in this story is an outline of Cayce’s descriptions about the foundation of Egypt, the construction of the Great Pyramid, the Sphinx, the long-rumored Hall of Records, and some of the vast labyrinth of artifacts which Cayce claims will be found within it under the sands of Egypt. Mandeville also claims that his work provides the first time that any psychic has been scientifically examined and given an objective scientific score for accuracy. The three volumes in the “Return of the Phoenix” demonstrate how the author’s five years of scientific analysis and research has resulted in a score of 92% for Cayce’s historical accuracy. The author claims that this score is significant because scientists can rely upon it in using the archeological, geological, and geophysical clues which Cayce left. Now for the first time, Mandeville argues, explorers, scientists, researchers, and scholars will have a serious tool for making full use of Cayce’s amazing psychic talent for solving historical riddles and making new discoveries, such as with the Hall of Records which is buried near the Sphinx. He illustrates this point by describing how a large number of Cayce’s comments about the ancient past have been proven during the last fifty years. In the third volume of the “Return of the Phoenix”, Mandeville claims another scientific first. The author outlines a new scientific theory which he developed from Cayce’s clues. The new theory, he calls Vortex Tectonics, explains and predicts El Nino, earthquakes in California, and the occurrences of volcanic activity. “By following Cayce’s clues to their ultimate conclusion I discovered that all motion in the earth’s crust and all action by the great tectonic plates is caused by the motion of the earth’s axis, literally by the variations in Chandler’s Wobble. Using the principles and correlations I have discovered, any geophyscist or geologist can predict the next great window of major earthquakes for any part of the world, including California’s active zones.” The author provides dozens of charts of scientific data which prove his claims and reveal how local scientists can do a better job of predicting earthquakes. (See the accompanying charts). The principles of Vortex Tectonics, Mandeville claims, are revolutionary for science because they demonstrate decisively for the first time that El Nino is caused by volcanic heat which rises from the bottoms of the oceans. To show the connections, Mandeville created a graph which he calls the “X Wave in the Primary Axis Cycle”. The chart, which he regards as revolutionary for geophysics as Einstein’s famous equation “E=mc squared” was for physics, directly connects the El Nino weather phenomenon with the ups and downs of the X-Wave in Chandler’s Wobble. Mandeville also provides graphs which prove that there has been a 400% increase in overall tectonic activity during the last 50 years. “These prove Cayce’s earth change predictions and demonstrate that his infamous pole shift prediction is on track”, Mandeville claims. “This leads me to believe that there may be a 85% probability that a sudden shift in the location of the poles (spin axis) of the earth will occur during the period 2000-2001 with the same range of movement and destruction as the pole shift of 10,500 BC which gave rise to Plato’s famous story about the destruction of Atlantis”. The areas of the world which will be most hard hit by this avalanche of the crust will be northern Europe and all areas adjacent to the ocean in the North Arc of the Pacific Rim. Mandeville points out that the publishing of the “Return of the Phoenix” on CDROM is also an historical first because it is the first major literary work which was designed to make maximum use of CDROM and hypertext technologies. Since the publisher was not constrained by costs, it is graphically rich and the presentation of the topics on well over 1400 pages is extensively supported by evidence from graphs, charts, and tables of data. Retail distribution is planned for the work but at the current time it is available only through the MetaSyn Media web site at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/ (end) attachments: Three Charts: Vortex Textonics Trend Charts, 3 pages http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/briefs/Xwavechartrelease.htm About The Author: Michael Wells Mandeville, 1 page http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/briefs/aboutauthor.htm Publication Announcement For “The Return of the Phoenix”, 4 pages w/ graphics http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/briefs/announcepub.htm Best Wishes, Michael Wells Mandeville, The Hills of Arizona USA "Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 19:02:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12261; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:00:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:00:15 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: The Ammonium Ion vs The Potassium Ion Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 13:59:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000901bf8825$a1c6efc0$478e1d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <000901bf8825$a1c6efc0$478e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA12171 Resent-Message-ID: <"fdAkN3.0.T_2.-8Snu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 03:08:40 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >" The Ammonium Ion acts chemically like the Alkali Metals, and in particular like >the Potassium Ion, the two ions being of the same size and charge." > >Since ground water (that Jed is so fond of) usually contains ammonia from >atmospheric electrical activity and human/animal wastes, this might >be the "Secret Ingredient" that Scott forgot to add to his Yuri Potapov-Yusmar experiments. Did these experiments have anything to do with potassium? Even though > >IOW, if it don't work, Piss on it. :-) > >Regards, Frederick Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 19:05:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13747; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:04:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:04:04 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: The Ammonium Ion vs The Potassium Ion Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:03:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9hgbcsoa3voahug3pidv1m1nob4im6hteo 4ax.com> References: <000901bf8825$a1c6efc0$478e1d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <000901bf8825$a1c6efc0$478e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA13713 Resent-Message-ID: <"H2Mw_1.0.bM3.ZCSnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 03:08:40 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >" The Ammonium Ion acts chemically like the Alkali Metals, and in particular like >the Potassium Ion, the two ions being of the same size and charge." While this may be true, I doubt that it has the same ionisation potentials as potassium, so I suspect it wouldn't necessarily make a good replacement according to Mills' hydrino theory. As to your LL's, well you are a better judge of that than I. > >Since ground water (that Jed is so fond of) usually contains ammonia from >atmospheric electrical activity and human/animal wastes, this might >be the "Secret Ingredient" that Scott forgot to add to his Yuri Potapov-Yusmar experiments. I wasn't aware that those experiments had anything to do with potassium, or even if they were tried with K added. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 19:08:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15244; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:06:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:06:51 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lockheed/Antigravity patent/Popular Mechanics Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:06:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000304174451.14174.qmail web120.yahoomail.com> In-Reply-To: <20000304174451.14174.qmail web120.yahoomail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA15145 Resent-Message-ID: <"6UIEo1.0.vj3.AFSnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:44:51 -0800 (PST), ron kita wrote: >In the current issue of Popular Mechanics (KGB Story >on cover) they cite that they published the A_G/UFO >patent >issued to Lockheed on Sept10,1963. see page 71 Does this mean that the patent was issued on 9/10/'63, or that the article was printed on 9/10/'63? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 20:41:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13125; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:39:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:39:57 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: The Ammonium Ion vs The Potassium Ion Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:29:02 -0500 Message-ID: <20000308042902421.AAA275 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"WsRjZ2.0._C3.TcTnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >I wasn't aware that those experiments had anything to do with potassium, or >even if they were tried with K added. >[snip] I ran a water diluted liquid plant food through my device, which had a percentage of N in it, but I threw out the label when I left Seattle, so I can't remember what the percentage was. It was a generic plant food that could be bought in any lawn and garden supply, and I'm sure they are all quite similar. I measured the heat output, and got ~165% of the input power, but I just chalked it up to the oxidation of the plantfood chemicals. There may have been other reactions, but there was no way for me to know. I was expecting more heat actually, and hoping for propulsion, so I moved on to other stuff. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 21:56:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA10106; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:51:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:51:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000308055111.34552.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.42] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vortex tectonics Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 21:51:11 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vXm6o.0.nT2.vfUnu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am the Phoenix. As stated here and on many lists for years. And this fellow is right, it is about the variation on Chandler's wobble, which is the second note of the "cosmic chord". The third note is the measurment of off dead center that occures on a daily basis that sends out the Phoenix wave, Phoenix, Tao of Eagle, and is the cause of the tides, and is seen on my cover page. As shown at this is also called, "The Third Wave", "The Golden Mean Ratio", and is seen as the dual radial arm pattern in the spiral galaxy, the hurricane, and the whirlpool. We have just recently built the first whirlpools built by man on the Whirlpower List. Top vortex fluid dynamics expert Callum Coats, author of "The Living Energies" and translator of Schauberger's work has sent concurrance and his partner and movie producer Martin Selecki is now on the Whirlpower Team. It has been a long slow but steady rise to this point. I have been invited to come to Australia and do a Whirlpower Workshop with Coats and may be headed that way soon. Whirlpower Headquarters is possibly moving out of California to Florida in a few days. Folks, we stand at a brand new scientific frontier. "its the fizz in the physics" David Dennard "in sackcloth and ashes" The Phoenix http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: William Beaty >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Vortex tectonics >Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:01:37 -0800 (PST) > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 16:17:13 -0700 >From: Michael Mandeville >To: William Beaty >Subject: Please rely this to Vortex-L and any other appropriate > > >Dear Vortex List: A few years ago I was a reader and poster on your list >from which I developed certain ideas. During the past four years I have >not been involved with the list simply because I had too many other >research issues. But in recognition of some of the stimulous I received I >have named a major new scientific paradigm for geology, geophysics, and >plate tectonics partly in recognition of the Vortex group. The new >paradigm is Vortex tectonics and it explains all issues of the formation of >the earth's crust based on its irregular wobbling through the spin vortex. >Below is the information which will link you into a huge amount of data >related to it. If you have responses to it I shall be happy to entertain >them directly to my email address at mwm aa.net but I am not currently >subscribed to any lists. > >Press Release > >Re: Major New Scientific Work About Edgar Cayce And His Millennial >Prophecies Is Unveiled On A CDROM. > >Release Date: Monday, March 6 , 2000 > >Contact: Michael W. Mandeville , 623-374-9585 > >Length: pages - 3, words - 851 > > >BLACK CANYON CITY, Az – March 6, 2000 - Michael Mandeville, an Arizona >author, unveiled on the Internet a major new title in literary science for >a three volume trilogy, titled “The Return of the Phoenix”. The author, >Michael Mandeville, announced that his website formally presents his work >to the public for the first time by offering some of the chapters as >webpages. The public will be able to hear Mandeville discuss his work in >person on the Laura Lee Web Radio Show March 21st 7-8 PM (PST) at: >http://www.lauralee.com/ > >Mandeville, who lives in Arizona’s Black Canyon, claims that the release of >the work on CDROM makes both literary and scientific history with several >firsts. He explains that it is the first time that a complete anthology of >the psychic predictions of Edgar Cayce have all been assembled and >explained. The author collected thousands of Cayce’s clues from the Cayce >archives and condensed them into one summary story which he presents in >“The Return of the Phoenix” as the story of the “World Epic”. Included in >this story is an outline of Cayce’s descriptions about the foundation of >Egypt, the construction of the Great Pyramid, the Sphinx, the long-rumored >Hall of Records, and some of the vast labyrinth of artifacts which Cayce >claims will be found within it under the sands of Egypt. > >Mandeville also claims that his work provides the first time that any >psychic has been scientifically examined and given an objective scientific >score for accuracy. The three volumes in the “Return of the Phoenix” >demonstrate how the author’s five years of scientific analysis and research >has resulted in a score of 92% for Cayce’s historical accuracy. The author >claims that this score is significant because scientists can rely upon it >in using the archeological, geological, and geophysical clues which Cayce >left. Now for the first time, Mandeville argues, explorers, scientists, >researchers, and scholars will have a serious tool for making full use of >Cayce’s amazing psychic talent for solving historical riddles and making >new discoveries, such as with the Hall of Records which is buried near the >Sphinx. He illustrates this point by describing how a large number of >Cayce’s comments about the ancient past have been proven during the last >fifty years. > >In the third volume of the “Return of the Phoenix”, Mandeville claims >another scientific first. The author outlines a new scientific theory >which he developed from Cayce’s clues. The new theory, he calls Vortex >Tectonics, explains and predicts El Nino, earthquakes in California, and >the occurrences of volcanic activity. “By following Cayce’s clues to >their ultimate conclusion I discovered that all motion in the earth’s crust >and all action by the great tectonic plates is caused by the motion of the >earth’s axis, literally by the variations in Chandler’s Wobble. Using the >principles and correlations I have discovered, any geophyscist or geologist >can predict the next great window of major earthquakes for any part of the >world, including California’s active zones.” The author provides dozens of >charts of scientific data which prove his claims and reveal how local >scientists can do a better job of predicting earthquakes. (See the >accompanying charts). > >The principles of Vortex Tectonics, Mandeville claims, are revolutionary >for science because they demonstrate decisively for the first time that El >Nino is caused by volcanic heat which rises from the bottoms of the oceans. > To show the connections, Mandeville created a graph which he calls the “X >Wave in the Primary Axis Cycle”. The chart, which he regards as >revolutionary for geophysics as Einstein’s famous equation “E=mc squared” >was for physics, directly connects the El Nino weather phenomenon with the >ups and downs of the X-Wave in Chandler’s Wobble. > >Mandeville also provides graphs which prove that there has been a 400% >increase in overall tectonic activity during the last 50 years. “These >prove Cayce’s earth change predictions and demonstrate that his infamous >pole shift prediction is on track”, Mandeville claims. “This leads me to >believe that there may be a 85% probability that a sudden shift in the >location of the poles (spin axis) of the earth will occur during the >period 2000-2001 with the same range of movement and destruction as the >pole shift of 10,500 BC which gave rise to Plato’s famous story about the >destruction of Atlantis”. The areas of the world which will be most hard >hit by this avalanche of the crust will be northern Europe and all areas >adjacent to the ocean in the North Arc of the Pacific Rim. > >Mandeville points out that the publishing of the “Return of the Phoenix” >on CDROM is also an historical first because it is the first major literary >work which was designed to make maximum use of CDROM and hypertext >technologies. Since the publisher was not constrained by costs, it is >graphically rich and the presentation of the topics on well over 1400 pages >is extensively supported by evidence from graphs, charts, and tables of >data. Retail distribution is planned for the work but at the current time >it is available only through the MetaSyn Media web site at >http://www.aa.net/~mwm/ > >(end) > >attachments: > >Three Charts: Vortex Textonics Trend Charts, 3 pages >http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/briefs/Xwavechartrelease.htm > >About The Author: Michael Wells Mandeville, 1 page >http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/briefs/aboutauthor.htm > >Publication Announcement For “The Return of the Phoenix”, 4 pages w/ >graphics >http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/briefs/announcepub.htm > > > >Best Wishes, >Michael Wells Mandeville, The Hills of Arizona USA >"Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.htm > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 23:12:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22210; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:10:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:10:22 -0800 Message-ID: <20000308070946.71857.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.27] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: To Build A Whirlpool (next draft) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 23:09:46 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"szFHK3.0.rQ5.TpVnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now woul be a great time for some of you to get your vote on the Declaration. Going out very soon!!! The Whirlpower Group is still making progress. Slow but steady. We have gotten more confirmation from top vortex fluid dynamics experts on prior vortex type work and it still appears after three years of searching, many lists, and thousands of archived pages, that a whirlpool has never been built by man before. My research started looking for whirlpools; can't find any. If any of you folks know of whirlpool data, we are still looking. We are announcing the Whirpower Research and Theory in a press release (see below) going out in a few days worldwide, and are looking for good comments to add. If any here are interested in adding your thoughtful comments and voting "To Build a Whirlpool", or if you can help us build one, we need all the help we can get. This vote does not mean you have to endorse my work or do anything, just that you agree if a whirlpool has never been built before by man then it is just common sense to do so, and you agree in calling out for this scientific test to be done in an unbiased scientific manner. We are trying to follow the Scientific Method, theorists propose, scientists dispose, and avoid biased and false reports and claims. I think this has got to be the largest gap in scientific exploration of all time. Many have not understood the difference in a whirlpool and a tornado type vortex and it appears all vortex science to date has been about tornado type vortices. Whirlpower is about a hurricane type vortex. Big difference. Very big difference. Callum Coats, author of "The Living Energies", recognized authority and translator of the early Schauberger work has just recently come on board in agreement with this as have other top vortex scientists. Help us out if you can, visit my website and review my theory, join my group if you are interested, but most important help out with a brief comment and stand up for a cleaner world. David ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Press Release Whirlpower Declaration Feb 25 2000 To Build A Whirlpool To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern: >From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group: This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool built and tested by science. After considerable research it has been shown that a whirlpool has never been built by man before. It is our opinion that one should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general public. The research on this goes back several years on the internet and many, many, years by myself several people on this list. I began by trying to find the whirlpools in the world after being inspired by a dream. This search has led to this theory and call for a whirlpool to be built in an unbiased, multiple, Scientific Method, theorists propose, scientists dispose, test. This information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower Declaration stating the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way that it will generate electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean water in the process! Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving the pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by the pollution and danger of current energy sources. This is not a request for cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however those interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help support our efforts. Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature. This pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar system, the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic. It is seen in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence. Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the world we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few years ago. Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs in the ABC News Transcript posted at my website. Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest of this new understanding and predicted many of the discoveries long before they were announced. Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter (Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall and Perlmutter), and the slowing down of the speed of light (Hau), are all predicted by the relative density displacement basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the fluid nature of space. Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has weathered the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are finally starting to see the possibility. All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a scientific manner. We are asking any and all who may be interested to try it. Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have built several small models that show the action I have described, and we have other tests of principle models by people in our group. These appear to be the first whirlpools ever built by man. We are working on building our next whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on this has been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort and available for all to use. Please help us if you can. All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are some of the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science. We welcome any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being. Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments. Thank you for your consideration, David G. Dennard The Phoenix 655 Doyle LN Dixon Ca USA 95620 http://www.whirlpower.cc daviddennard hotmail.com whirlpower egroups.com Contact Phone 707-678-0402 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study of Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of interest by many mainstream scientists. I guess it's just a bit too revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some. You don't have to have a string of qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with a huge scientific breakthrough. The guy who thought up the theory of plate tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right. So don't be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your vision, David, you may well have the last laugh. I hope you get the scientific support you deserve Bill Bimson Senior Experimental Officer Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre Univerity of Liverpool L69 3BX England ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago when I first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger. I have an active and avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up the challenge to further my understanding in this most intriguing of ideas. I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end I see lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the Whirlpower theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth, extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations. Neil Simmonds nsimmonds yahoo.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am studying vortex motion. This could also apply to vortices driven by gravity. I have looked at your site. You have my full support. Richard Cheney RichardCHENEY leggott.ac.uk +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in large scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test Whirlpower soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary details. I will also try to help any other person that tries to do the same. And as an ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness person or what ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with the Whirlpower ideas! Curt Hallberg Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html http://www.newphys.se qrt.o.tina swipnet.se ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ As theories get more complex, the more the parameters of what will be significant are determined by existing theory... ...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data and an alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a new paradigm is acknowledged. Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are necessary for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also helps to build an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in the old theory. An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same (this is after all what this site and many others try to do) Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can afford to throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a whirlpool effect. Andre aw49 pixie.co.za ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics bashing. He is truely on to something most of those best minds could only say poo or huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out. What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE! I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN THIS!! I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want to admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE! ...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable once the process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle the vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different ways (ha.haa) - Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple WhirlPower!, but I can feel it works / Big time / the Bigger the better!! steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall ekwall2 diac.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David, from time to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought, questioning the amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the vortex. But then my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David really is on to something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system has potential. It surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as impossible. Just think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on their first flying machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David, but now airplanes are a major means of transportation! My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work, but my intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a physicist, I do not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior to be able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal etc. David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other people say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams. Edward Maesen http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine, Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern. One has to see it to understand it. Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have a spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts. This more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside. David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool / hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this spiral form has two components. As he says it, "that of chaos and order, and how the sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that drags a huge donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from Nature, The God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to whirlpools". The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's dream into reality. Cédric Mannu cmannu eternite.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way in the three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met with much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that this theory would not work. Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a huge whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond the surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one must understand the nature of gravity. Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that somebody builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the nature of the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists and researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the universe, and the role gravity has in it. I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower I put together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc David Hubbard dhubcal i-cafe.net ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious R&D, I myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do vote for serious research on David's whirlpool technology. Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any scientist not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then! To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is still flat! Hector D Perez ARK RESEARCH arkresearch hotmail.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a novelist, a writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human nature and the study thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce to the experts and authorities, i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla. I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious in his fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity of the highest order. Ironically, this concept has been presented to him much in the same manner as Einstein's "theorems", purportedly gleaned in a Theta state. At the advent of the 21st century, it would certainly be prudent for "modern" science to exercise a more flexible attitude and approach as we reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, will we - as a collective whole - (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to perhaps glimpse and perceive The raison d'être. I definitely encourage further in-depth exploration of THE WHIRLPOOL THEORY. Carole Fox-Breeding aka Marguerite McCall Las Vegas, Nevada Author--The Heiresses Angel Trilogy Series ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory. Though I am only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this concept could work. It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me that nobody has done any research on it until now. Today in Geography we were watching videos on tornados and hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your theory as I saw cows and houses fly past on the screen. Your theory has definetly given me a lot to think about! I hope that you get the support that you need from the rest of the scientific community. Good luck! ~Marisa M_Demers telus.net ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Whirlpool Theory provides an interesting, and as yet untapped, pathway to understanding our own universe in greater detail. It is my hope that the Scientific Community, the information technology field in particular, will find the potential value of such experiments. The simplicity of this idea alone should cause "Science" to step back and reexamine where we are and where we are going. Because in the end, the universe operates as simply as possible, it is humanity that adds the complexity. Russ Rogers russr planetcable.net http://www.ducktank.net International Who's Who of Information Technology ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ After going through the theory slowly, I saw that this is quite possible indeed, and if it has the rewards it is perceived to have, I don't know why the hell someone doesn't do something about it and try it out in practice to a high degree of accuracy. It could change a whole lot, and if it doesn't, we don't lose anything, but we gain a whole lot of knowledge. But after reading the theory, I understood how it works...quite simple in concept, but has huge implications, and could give scientists a reason to go to work every morning to rethink their previous theories. If it's a vote you want, you got it from me. But I really hope these votes help. I understand that the least we can do to help is vote, whilst you are trying other ways to get it implemented in practice. If it helps us understand Hurricans, Tornadoes and our Milky Way itself, more clearly, it has all the more reason to be implemented in practice with the help of other people interested or able to do so. It's probably the fear of having to rewrite other theories, that keeps them from doing it ! :o/ Lawrence D' Costa solarenigma hotmail.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am an inquisitive thinker with a love of physics. I feel that the work that David Dennard and the many years of exhaustive time should be put to the test. I feel strongly that a large whirlpool should be constructed so that his theories on Whirlpower can be tested properly. The building of a whirlpool has my full backing and I hope that others step up to the plate and back him too. This undertaking will not be very expensive and could yield a great deal of useful information. Right or wrong, we all stand to benefit. Al Tillis North Carolina, USA ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am in agreement that a Whirlpower unit as you describe should be built. The processes involve 3 separate orthogonal movements - which for me strongly indicate the potential for tapping the universal energy fabric. Good wishes and success with your project. Andrew King andrew.king dhuru.demon.co.uk ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am a 29 year old construction worker, and like David and others on this list I have no formal training in any of the many branches of science, but a few years ago I realized what I had always desired to do, understand our universe. Since then I have tried to catch up on what has already been discovered to be fact and ponder the questions that arise from every new discovery that is made as technology advances, and theorize along the way. At first I didn't think much about Whirlpower, but as a result of David's persistence, I finally gave in and listened. And after some crude experiments on my own I became enthralled with whirlpools. The question I keep asking myself is why. Why does the vortex rotate? Why does it rotate in a certain direction? Why does a very small output from a container cause the entire contents to spin? Why does the vortex wobble? David's theory gives us a possible explanation, but without actual testing calculations there isn't any proof. Just as all other great thinkers in history saw what everyone else took for granted and asked "why", Galileo and the orbits of the planets, Newton and moving objects, Einstein and time, so David Dennard is showing us the whirlpool and compelling us to ask why, I hate to think that some very important clues to understanding our universe weren't studied because of the complacency of the scientific community, and the ones with the resources to study them. John Hardin DeSoto Missouri E-mail: Budove58 juno.com (636)337-7164 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I support the Whirlpower Team to find a workable system that can be used on a large basis or, perhaps more important, for home use. Except for magnetics and a few other ideas there aren't many ideas on the board that are adaptable for home use. The fact that we are so dependent on oil and gas (and nuclear) is ridiculous. Light, magnets, WATER and gravity are just a few of the options we have. Self-sustaining whirlpower is a most promising way to go. Dave davem tbcnet.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 7 23:44:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA25974; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:43:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:43:29 -0800 Message-ID: <20000308074255.18538.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.150] From: "David Dennard" To: mwm aa.net Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: What is Whirlpower? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 23:42:55 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"phcmH2.0.mL6.WIWnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael, Hear is a little more of the history. Phoenix Rising! David ********************************************************************** Whirlpower applies to ZPE and the Casimir Effect. Not exactly the way mainstream science sees it. Whirlpower is a gravity paradigm theory. The gravity constant was dismissed by Einstein in favor of the light constant and void space, then extrapolated on to everything quantum driven through frictionless intertia. That paradigm is just not holding up. The thermodynamic paradigm is in error. IMO. Whirlpower is the name of a theory I have been expressing for years across many lists and thousands of archived pages. It is about how gravity affects spinning objects and how that affect effects the area surrounding spinning objects. In space science it is know as frame dragging and was predicted by my theory before science announced the discovery on Nov 7 1997. But the scientific explaination of frame dragging is not accurate, IMO. It is said to be a very mysterious thing and at the frontier of science now but had long been dismissed due to the concept of void space proposed by Einstein. Modern data points to a fluid space and frame dragging confirms it and the gravity constant, also dismissed on the basis of void space. You can see Dr. Vera Rubin's announcement on the ABC NEWS Transcript, "Mapping The Cosmos" posted at my website stating "scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" due the the latest space science discoveries. The Hubble has show science things they never even dreamed possible. She also has staed "scientists are going to go kicking and screaming" into the next century" due to the new findings that are not predicted under the current paradigm. Believe me, I have seen a lot of kicking and screaming as my work has gained support. My work is the Gravity Paradigm. Reason being frame dragging is not accurate is it does not address the wobble as the action that causes the dragging effect. It points to the spin. Of course the wobble is axial rotation to but it acts like a lever as how it affects its surrounding area and it is caused by gravity. That is the overlooked and main point of my theory. All spinning objects wobble be it ever so great or small and that wobble is coming from "The Force" of gravity. Except the in case of unbalanced spin, that is about intertia and not related to my theory. Whirlpower is about building a whirlpool and testing it in a scientific unbiased manner and I am calling for that test to be done. This call has been gong out now for almost three years and three whirlpools have been built in that time and they show the action predicted in my theory. WE (The Whirlpower Group) are working on getting the next whirlpool built and working to get it built in a scientific manner and calling for other scientists to do the same. The ones reported are by non scientists, homemade and not done in a scientific manner. Here is an early article I wrote the generated the progress I am reporting. David Here is my Whirlpower Introduction. The foundation of my theory is based on gravity being the cause of evaporation and the speed of light. I think a better understanding if this action will give the perspective needed in physics to understand the mysterious motions in nature on Earth and in the Universe, and lead to an understanding of my theory. If I can get science to test my theory, which as of yet they have not recognized nor made any effort to test, I think it will lead us to a new age and a new abundant supply of clean energy. I am not an important person nor am I a scientist, although I went to college for ten years and took a number of science courses, it has been very difficult to get my message across. Things are getting better in the past few months but I still have a long way to go. To me the most amazing thing about this work was finding out science never has build a whirlpool as I describe and tested it. Many vortexes have been built along the lines of what I call a tornado type or simple vortex but never has a vortex been built like what I call a hurricane type or compound vortex. Building one should not be difficult to do but it is far beyond my ability. Maybe some of you can help me get this information to those in science interested in doing test experiments. All my work on this is given freely to all as stated in my Whirlpower Declaration. I know someone is likely to plagiarize my work but so far it does not appear any have and I have years of archived work up on this. My thinking is this concept cannot really be stolen because when proven and people know a whirlpool can generate electricity almost anyone will be able to build a simple "Hero's Fountain" and connect their power needs to "the wheelwork of nature". Einstien said, "all it takes is a dream". Tesla said, "ere it be many generations, man will connect his machinery to the very wheelwork of nature". Hawking said, anyone that says science understands the basic fundamentals is saying "garbage". Dennard says, "I have a dream, Whirlpower is the wheelwork of nature!" David G. Dennard "the mouse that roared" http://www.whirlpower.cc ********************************************************************** What is Whirlpower? Whirlpower is a gravitational force of spinning mass. Much like spinning a charge makes an additional magnetic force, spinning mass makes an additional gravitational force. It affects its surrounding area the greater the wobble. All spinning objects wobble be it ever so great or small, and acts like a lever as far as how gravity affects the area around a spinning mass. When the hurricane gets big and fast enough, the eye wall wobbles and drags the hurricane. This acceleration is Whirlpower. The debris field kicked up by the tornado that picks up huge objects like cars, houses, the infamous flying cows, etc., is the effect of the spinning vortex on its surrounding area. This effect is Whirlpower. When a neutron star spins at 300 revolutions per second it causes matter to spin around it in orbit at 1,000 revolutions per second. That acceleration is Whirlpower. A black hole frame drags gas around it, and it is "wobbling like a child's toy top as it slows its spin and begins to teeter in all directions" (quote from Kathy Sawyer, the Washington Post). Whirlpower. The Earth spins and wobbles. This action pulls on the Moon increasing its orbital radius. This increase is Whirlpower. The sun spins and the wobble drives the planets. Whirlpower. The Galaxy spins like a giant hurricane, the dense core (and black holes) wobbles and the stars proceed, Whirlpowered!! Need I say more? Of course. And I have to keep saying it till we build the whirlpool. The hurricane is said the be the most mysterious event in nature. It was announced on the news recently that "almost everything science had thought to be true about the vortex before, was wrong"! And that, "scientists need to go back to the drawing board and start all over." Now, you don't have to be an Einstein to see a pattern starting to develope. If you read my theory in detail and look at my "childish sketches", I describe a machine that can use Whirlpower to generate electricity and it will clean water. We need Whirlpower NOW! Whirlpower is about gravity being "The Force" and how that force works. It is the Phoenix, Tao of Eagle, the "Way" things work, the principle of flight, the power of the hurricane, the driving force of the Universe. It is opening the void. Density displacement. Motion due to gravity. Gravity is like the balance of the scale, it will always try to balance. It causes the motion by pulling on the more dense thus pushing away the less dense. It attempts to find density displacement balance. The heat carried in the void is real, but it is not the origin, and it does not supply "The Force" for the work being done. Understanding this leads to understanding how gravity really works and how a machine can be made to harness this force. Whirlpower is one of many design concepts that can harness the force of gravity. It is simple and easy to understand once you understand the "Pearl of Wisdom". If you think it is creating energy then you don't understand Whirlpower. It is not free energy any more that solar, wind or hydro. Actually all energy is given freely by nature but there is no "free energy". It all comes from "The Force" of gravity. Whirlpower is "The Way" (The Tao) to follow the pattern nature provides and make a "full circle system". David G. Dennard The Phoenix http://www.whirlpower.cc whirlpower egroups.com ********************************************************************* John Gronin says this about Whirlpower after a recent debate. Whirlpower is based on a rotating mass of water powered by gravity that produces a wobble that can be captured and used to generate electric power. Frame dragging; My reference quoted below: http://www.rdrop.com/users/green/school/framdrag.htm "...In 1918, Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity predicted that rotating bodies, such as black holes, drag space and time around itself as it rotates. In November of 1997, astronomers using NASA's Rossi X-ray Timing Explorer (RXTE) spacecraft made a startling discovery: evidence that supports this effect known as frame dragging. So we have a rotating mass and continuing... "...Precession, according to Dave Dooling, is "seen when a toy top both spins rapidly about its own axis, yet at the same time, executes a slower circular motion about the lower vertical axis. This second circular motion is precession, and it's not only found in toy tops, but also . . . [in] accreting disks around black holes in distant space." and of course "whirlpools" so now we have wobble.... and if that wobble is a part of the "frame dragging" effect. Then if we interpose a something that is coupled to the frame being dragged (like your paddle arrangement) perhaps the motion of the paddles can be connected to a generator and electricity produced. In order for us to get more "energy" out of this system than is put in to preserving the "whirlpool" there has to be some at present unknown or known and not accepted "New Science " about the properties of rotating masses. You cite Hal Puthoff and the ZPF; http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/free/zpe1.html "...the well known Russian physicist Andrei Sakharov put forward the somewhat radical hypothesis that gravitation might not be a fundamental interaction at all, but rather a secondary or residual effect associated with other (non-gravitational) fields. (6) Specifically, Sakharov suggested that gravity might be an induced effect brought about by changes in the zero-point energy of the vacuum, due to the presence of matter. If correct, gravity would then be understood as a variation on the Casimir theme, in which background zero-point-energy pressures were again responsible." and: http://www.ldolphin.org/energetic.html "...On the other hand, accelerated motion through the vacuum can in principle reveal the presence of the ZPF energy density directly.... Yet another factor which shows up in the ZPF spectrum of an accelerated observer is found, via the equivalence principle, to reveal a deep connection between zero-point energy and gravity along lines originally proposed by Sakharov [27] (that gravity could be understood as an induced effect brought about by changes in the quantum fluctuation energy of the vacuum due to the presence of matter [17])." Further study finds: A. Rueda & B. Haisch, Foundations of Physics, vol. 28, 1057--1108, (1998). saying: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/9802030 "...The interaction process between the accelerated object and the vacuum ...appears to generate a physical resistance (reaction force) to acceleration suggestive of what has been historically known as inertia." So now there is a potential connection between acceleration of matter and an interaction with the ZPF creating both inertia and gravity. Vera Rubin's contribution could be: http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/Museum/rubinv.html "...Newtonian laws of gravity predict that stars on the outside edge of a spiral galaxy would orbit slower than stars in the center of that galaxy; like planets orbiting around the sun. Vera's research shows that they do not. Stars orbiting the outside of a spiral galaxy travel just as fast as those orbiting closer to the center. As a result of her unexpected finding, scientists now believe that there is some huge, invisible mass exerting the gravitational force necessary for those outer stars to stay in orbit. Vera Rubin's research suggests that at least 90% of the universe is made of "dark matter," a substance that scientists today struggle to identify and describe." So we have a rotating mass (Spiral Galaxies) exhibiting non newtonian gravitational mechanics. Perhaps there is a connection between frame dragging, Zpf induced inertial effects, and a zpf induced gravity that could explain the observed behavior of spiral galaxies? you also mention the work of : Viktor Schauberger http://www.agora.stm.it/J.Hasslberger/tecno_1.htm "... "We are using the wrong kind of motion!" The Austrian forest warden and inventor Viktor Schauberger has researched and successfully applied the laws of motion of water. He said that we are using the wrong kind of motion,... the natural motion of water is a centripetal vortical movement, turning or "rolling" inward around the axis of motion of the water's flow. This kind of motion tends to accelerate and contract the stream of water, accumulating kinetic energy in the form of an increased velocity." That if it is rotating is an acceleration.. "...Anyone who has doubts as to the fact that the natural spiral movement can increase the kinetic energy of water, need only remember the extraordinary energies contained in tornadoes and hurricane winds. These energies are accumulated by just the same spiral movement." Therefore if a rotating mass of water, increases its kinetic energy, has more inertia and generates local gravity fluctuations maybe Whirlpower has some possibility. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Thank you John, now that is unbiased "real science". ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ John tries to fit Whirlpower into the existing paradigm, and does it quite well, I might add. But really a clean sweep is needed. Out with the old and on with the new, Whirlpower! David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 00:29:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA31075; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:26:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:26:32 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Pd based Nitrous Oxide Treatment Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:38:15 -0500 Message-ID: <20000308083815562.AAA238 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"AUf-Y1.0.Tb7.twWnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SWAMP GAS COULD HELP CLEAN UP POWER PLANTS COLUMBUS, Ohio, March 7, 2000 (ENS) - Ohio State University engineers have found a way to use methane to remove toxic nitric oxide emissions from the stack gases of coal burning power plants. Nitric oxide is a common byproduct of combustion, and cars and fossil-fuel burning power plants are two chief sources of the molecule. Once released, nitric oxide reacts with oxygen to produce nitric acid - a main component of acid rain - and depletes ozone in the upper layers of the stratosphere. "Although the technology exists to reduce nitric oxide emissions, it is not a problem free technology by any stretch of the imagination," said Umit Ozkan, professor of chemical engineering at Ohio State. A new process developed by Ozkan and her graduate students removes up to 100 percent of nitric oxide from stack gases in a safer and less expensive way than available methods. In the new process, published in the journal "Catalysis Today," methane is activated with a palladium catalyst so that it will react with nitric oxide. Under ideal conditions, Ozkan's method removed almost 100 percent of nitric oxide from gas in a laboratory reactor, forming nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water. Methane is cheap and plentiful, arising from decaying matter in landfills and swamps. Palladium is an expensive precious metal, but Ozkan's process requires just a thin coating on the interior surface of a ceramic catalyst chamber. Current methods use ammonia to remove nitric oxide, a process which can release corrosive emissions. Ozkan's team is still working to overcome one hitch: her process does not work as well in the presence of sulfur, a common contaminant in some coal deposits. Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 02:10:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA22113; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 02:09:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 02:09:47 -0800 Message-ID: <002b01bf88ce$753c7480$72441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <000901bf8825$a1c6efc0$478e1d26 fjsparber> Subject: Re: The Ammonium Ion vs The Potassium Ion Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:18:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ePh4T1.0.RP5.gRYnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 6:59 PM Subject: Re: The Ammonium Ion vs The Potassium Ion > On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 03:08:40 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >" The Ammonium Ion acts chemically like the Alkali Metals, and in particular like > >the Potassium Ion, the two ions being of the same size and charge." > > > >Since ground water (that Jed is so fond of) usually contains ammonia from > >atmospheric electrical activity and human/animal wastes, this might > >be the "Secret Ingredient" that Scott forgot to add to his Yuri Potapov-Yusmar experiments. > > Did these experiments have anything to do with potassium? > Even though They Might, since most, if not all of the CF/OU effects seem to be enhanced by K. Regards, Frederick > > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 04:45:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA28086; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:43:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:43:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20000308124301.2348.qmail web120.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:43:01 -0800 (PST) From: ron kita Subject: Antigravity/Lockheed /Popular Mechanics To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"cCzQB3.0.is6.Nhanu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to my sources.......the Lockheed 1963 patent is merely an aerodynmaic ducted fan........sadly nothing more. Popular Mechanics......should of been more honest... aerodynamic craft are not ufo-like. Best, Ron Kita Antigravitics_R_US --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:44:51 -0800 (PST), ron kita > wrote: > > >In the current issue of Popular Mechanics (KGB > Story > >on cover) they cite that they published the > A_G/UFO > >patent > >issued to Lockheed on Sept10,1963. see page 71 > Does this mean that the patent was issued on > 9/10/'63, or that the article > was printed on 9/10/'63? > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 09:22:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26638; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:21:02 -0800 Message-ID: <38C68BF7.31339EE8 eskimo.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 09:20:55 -0800 From: Robert Brady X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is Whirlpower? References: <20000308074255.18538.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------88C33AE4765964F7F455A942" Resent-Message-ID: <"dFBam3.0.7W6.-lenu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------88C33AE4765964F7F455A942 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, You may be interested in the current work of Hal Puthoff at http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/Puthoff/ He has now moved into setting up a NASA team to study the potential for ZPE and will be trying some experiements, possibly like yours. More about that is at http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/putnasa.htm This address might have an L on the end. My copy may be cut off. All this work is very interesting and now includes work which explains acceleration and, as you indicate, may shake up a lot of notions about gravity. Most folks cannot cope with the idea that it may be a "pushing force." Bob Brady David Dennard wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Hear is a little more of the history. > > Phoenix Rising! > > David > > ********************************************************************** > > Whirlpower applies to ZPE and the Casimir Effect. Not exactly the way > mainstream science sees it. Whirlpower is a gravity paradigm theory. The > gravity constant was dismissed by Einstein in favor of the light constant > and void space, then extrapolated on to everything quantum driven through > frictionless intertia. That paradigm is just not holding up. The > thermodynamic paradigm is in error. IMO. --------------88C33AE4765964F7F455A942 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="rebrady.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Robert Brady Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rebrady.vcf" begin:vcard n:Brady;Bob x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.eskimo.com/~rebrady adr:;;;1304 251st Avenue SE;Sammamish, WA;98029; version:2.1 email;internet:rebrady eskimo.com x-mozilla-cpt:;-29120 fn:Bob Brady end:vcard --------------88C33AE4765964F7F455A942-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 10:20:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14054; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:17:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:17:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:17:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: John Schnurer cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZrlGd.0.NR3.Ibfnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Folks, > > > Can we get a nuts and bolts definition of a votex? Do you have a copy of THE FEYNMAN LECTURES? Theres a whole section on viscous aerodynamics in there. Mathematically, a vortex is an infinitely narrow filament of "vorticity" which is surrounded by circular streamlines (spinning fluid, gas or liquid), and where the tangential velocity of the fluid has a 1/r distribution (r is distance from the vortex filament.) The velocity is infinite at the "surface" of the vortex filament. I think the math only works if there are no pressure changes in the fluid (so the fluid never seems to vanish into a closed volume or flow out of a closed volume. If you have a vortex which does not have 1/r velocity distribution, you can think of it as being a distributed pattern of vortex filaments. Individual vortex filaments must either be circles, or they must terminate upon surfaces. A REAL WORLD vortex can be imagined as a bundle of vortex filaments. I learned a lot about this stuff from arguing with the experts about what REALLY makes airplanes fly. :) > Is it like a smoke ring? Yep, a smoke ring is a circular bundle of vortex filaments > > If yes, then what is a tornado...? That's a good question! The bottom of the tornado terminates on the ground, but where's the upper termination point? If the vortex doesn't "land" on something, then it must arc around and connect to its bottom somehow. I never see anyone talking about this question. > Earthworms don't wear contact lenses because they don't have any > > EYES! > > Get it? nope! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 11:53:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05788; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:49:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:49:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000308144825.0079e350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:48:25 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Special report on Atlanta highway carnage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FuIU42.0.AQ1.vwgnu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is off-topic, but this week Atlanta newspapers have published a multi-part report on the appalling conditions on highways and streets here. See: http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/reports/pedaltometal/index.html 571 people were killed in Atlanta in 1998, and 71,347 people injured (nearly 200 per day). History has recorded low-level guerrilla wars and sieges with fewer fatalities. Atlanta has some of the highest pedestrian fatality rates in the U.S., in the neighborhood where I live, where many poor people walk to work. People here drive at outrageous speeds. On the surface roads I have seen dozens of drivers run red stoplights, and ignore stop signs and pedestrians. I saw two this morning. Twice in the past, as I prepared to walk across Peachtree Ind. Blvd on a green light, trucks with huge wheels came barreling along, blew their horns, snaked around the cars waiting at the intersection, and blasted through like a fire engine going full throttle. One of them plowed into my wife's car years ago. I have developed the survivors instinct: the split second twitch & delay before stepping off the curve. You look and listen for the maniac coming at you at 60 mph in a 35 mph zone.(They are almost always guys, although I saw a grey-haired lady slow a tad and then zip past a stop sign this morning.) People sometimes wonder how our ancestors felt living the bush with lions, or in the swamps dodging alligators, or challenging rough seas in small boats. I know how they felt. Not particularly afraid on most days, but always wary about stepping off the curve. A couple of years ago the Georgia legislature gave carte blanche permission to speeders. The number of fatalities per driver skyrocketed, naturally. The good-ol' boys in the legislature essentially decriminalized vehicular manslaughter. The police can catch you driving 90 or 110 miles per hour a dozen times. When you finally kill someone, you do not go to jail any more. They do not even suspend your license for five years, the way they used to. You pay a $1,000 fine and you free to go out and slaughter some other innocent bystander. The only thing they have cracked down on is Driving Under the Influence of alcohol (DUI). A crackdown on speeders is long overdue here, and we need these automatic cameras that record the license plates of people charging through red lights. But laws and regulations cannot solve the root problem. There will be high accident rates as long as people operate the machinery. The human body is not capable of handling a vehicle at these speeds. The solution will come in the 50 to 100 years when computers finally develop enough intelligence to operate automobiles and trucks autonomously. Someday, an automobile accident anywhere in the country will be front-page news everywhere, the way a major airplane crash is today. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 12:40:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15923; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:37:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:37:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000308153637.0079e280 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 15:36:37 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC: Hot new gadgets don't work. Hello? Hello? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OfY2y3.0.iu3.4ehnu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As I have often pointed out here, the latest, hottest new gadgets seldom work. They sorta work. They give you a sense of what they may become. This is why the first company to develop a cold-gadget, no matter how impractical, should sell it at the earliest possible moment. When digital wristwatches were introduced, stores routinely gave customers two, because they knew that about half of them died after a week. Computer voice input is hardly worth the trouble for most people. "Early adopters" expect problems, and they're willing to put up with them for a glimpse of the future. For the rest of us, the rule is: "never buy software release x.00." Here is a funny article titled "Hello? Hello?" about non-working cell phones from the world's biggest phone company in the world's most prestigious city: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0010/schoofs.shtml - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 13:04:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32225; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:59:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:59:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20000308205911.89985.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.136] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Test Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:59:11 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QOokW.0.Rt7.2zhnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Like I have been saying and like Michael has just come out with in his most exceptional work, is that the wobble of the vortex has been misunderstood, overlooked, dismissed, call it what you want. It has been in the perceptual blind spot of science it seems. And not just in the vortex but in all spinning objects, especially how it relates to the energy of motion of the Universe. Finally we now have a good look at it from the scientific perspective. I tried, I know I could not get the message across because I can't do the physics speak. But, I'm not a scientist. Lots of non scientist wrote they understood exactly what I was saying. Scientists have a hard time because they have been trained to think a certain way. Now everything has changed!!! Fianlly!!! David Dennard The Phoenix http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: William Beaty >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: John Schnurer >CC: vortex-L eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Test >Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:17:51 -0800 (PST) > >On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, John Schnurer wrote: > > > Dear Folks, > > > > > > Can we get a nuts and bolts definition of a votex? > > >Do you have a copy of THE FEYNMAN LECTURES? Theres a whole section on >viscous aerodynamics in there. > >Mathematically, a vortex is an infinitely narrow filament of "vorticity" >which is surrounded by circular streamlines (spinning fluid, gas or >liquid), and where the tangential velocity of the fluid has a 1/r >distribution (r is distance from the vortex filament.) The velocity is >infinite at the "surface" of the vortex filament. I think the math only >works if there are no pressure changes in the fluid (so the fluid never >seems to vanish into a closed volume or flow out of a closed volume. If >you have a vortex which does not have 1/r velocity distribution, you can >think of it as being a distributed pattern of vortex filaments. >Individual vortex filaments must either be circles, or they must terminate >upon surfaces. A REAL WORLD vortex can be imagined as a bundle of vortex >filaments. I learned a lot about this stuff from arguing with the experts >about what REALLY makes airplanes fly. :) > > > Is it like a smoke ring? > >Yep, a smoke ring is a circular bundle of vortex filaments > > > > > If yes, then what is a tornado...? > >That's a good question! The bottom of the tornado terminates on the >ground, but where's the upper termination point? If the vortex doesn't >"land" on something, then it must arc around and connect to its bottom >somehow. I never see anyone talking about this question. > > > > Earthworms don't wear contact lenses because they don't have any > > > > EYES! > > > > Get it? > >nope! > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 13:18:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05751; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:13:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:13:40 -0800 Message-ID: <20000308211301.63591.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.136] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is Whirlpower? Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 13:13:01 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5VBbQ3.0.iP1.3Ainu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have talked with Puthoff before. He wrote to me, if Whirlpower works it is ZPE but seemed uninterested in helping find out. Never have been able to figure why science has not built a whirlpool before. To me, it just's common sense to build one since it looks like a hurricane and it looks like a spiral galaxy. Especially since science can't explain them. But like this list has shown too. New ways of thinking don't come real easy. David >From: Robert Brady >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: What is Whirlpower? >Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 09:20:55 -0800 > >David, > >You may be interested in the current work of Hal Puthoff at >http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/Puthoff/ > >He has now moved into setting up a NASA team to study >the potential for ZPE and will be trying some experiements, >possibly like yours. More about that is at >http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/putnasa.htm >This address might have an L on the end. My copy may >be cut off. > >All this work is very interesting and now includes work which >explains acceleration and, as you indicate, may shake up >a lot of notions about gravity. Most folks cannot cope with >the idea that it may be a "pushing force." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 14:07:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25328; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:05:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:05:20 -0800 Message-ID: <20000308215803.89754.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.144] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: Vortex Physics Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 13:58:03 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uqRhe.0.fB6.Vwinu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looks like I finally found a place, like the man says, a little better educated. But I do thank you folks, as Michael does. David >From: Sacred Science Institute >Reply-To: institute sacredscience.com >To: daviddennard hotmail.com >Subject: Vortex Physics >Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 13:38:50 -1000 > >Dear David, > >Very nice to hear from you, you have found a sympathetic ear. I have not >had a chance to read through all your material, but a quick perusal clearly >shows me that we are interested in the same subjects. I agree that Vortex >systems are one of the primary elements which modern science has bumbled >over. In the metaphysical traditions it is well know that everything works >through series of overlapping vortex systems, and even science 100 years >ago >was on the right track until the Einsteinian Devolution. I don't know if >you noticed that we publish several of the best books on Aether Physics and >Vortex Systems ever written, I'll list a few below in case you haven't seen >them before. I would be happy to put up some links to your material and >assist you in bring these ideas to the forefront. In the nest few weeks we >will be completing our Sacred Science Discussion Forums and research >archives and I invite you to monitor a forum on this subject if you are >interested. You may find that there is a better educated audience on our >site when it comes to these subjects than you will find in egroups, so it >would help to give more exposure to your ideas. I have a list of further >great vortex titles I have been meaning to bring back into print and have >been wondering how many people are interested in these subjects out there. > >Lets keep in touch, and bounce around some further ideas of ways to >interact >around this knowledge. I'm also curious if you've seen some of these books >below and have you looked into Walter Russell's work? > >Best regards, > >Brad Stewart > >W. BRADSTREET STEWART >SACRED SCIENCE INSTITUTE >www.sacredscience.com >institute sacredscience.com > >PMB 451, 1155 Camino Del Mar >Del Mar, CA 92014-2605 USA >Vox: (858) 350-9992 >Fax: (858) 350-0985 > >"Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!" >(Gone, Gone, Gone Beyond, Gone Beyond...Beyond, Hail The Goer!) >The Heart Sutra > > >Aether & Gravitation >William George Hooper, F.S.S. 1903 358p. A Very Important Work From >Baumring's Collection Presenting The Pre-Einsteinian Conception Of Aether & >Vortex Physics, A Clear Presentation Of Universal Phenomena From The >Natural >Philosophy School, Not Disproven Or Outdated As The Modern Establishment >Wrongly Assumes, Essential For Understanding Theories Of Esoteric Cosmology >& Market Forecasting. Contents: Philosophy Of Gravitation: Cause Of >Gravitation; Newton's 3 Rules Of Philosophy & Application To Gravitation; >Analysis Of Law Of Gravitation; Primitive Impulse; Centripetal & >Centrifugal >Force; Newton's Laws Of Motion; Force; 3 Laws Of Motion; Gravitation >Attraction; Universality Of Gravitation; Direction Of Forces; Proportion Of >Forces; Law Of Inverse Squares; Terrestrial Gravity; Centrifugal Force; >Kepler's 3 Laws. Matter: What Is Matter?; Conservation Of Matter; Matter Is >Atomic; What Is An Atom?; Atomic Theory; Kinds Of Atoms; Elements Of >Matter; >Mater Is Gravitative; Matter Possesses: Density, Elasticity, Inertia. >Aether: Aether Is: Matter, Universal, Atomic, Gravitative; Aether >Possesses: >Density, Elasticity, Inertia; Aether Is Impressible; Aether & Its Motions. >Energy: Conservation Of Energy; Transformation Of Energy; Potential & >Kinetic Energy; Energy & Motion; Conservation Of Motion; Transformation Of >Motion; Motion & Work. Heat, A Mode Of Motion: Heat, A Mode Of Motion; Heat >& Matter; Radiation & Absorption Heat Is A Repulsive Motion; Radiant Heat; >Direction Of A Ray Of Heat; Law Of Inverse Squares; 1st & 2nd Laws Of >Thermodynamics; Identity Of Heat & Light. Light, A Mode Of Motion: >Transverse Vibration Of Light; Reflection & Refraction; Solar Spectrum; >Direction Of Ray Of Light; Intensity Of Light; Velocity Of Light; Dynamical >Value Of Light; Electro-Magnetic Theory Of Light. Aether & Electricity: >Electricity, A Mode Of Motion; Electric: Field, Induction, Energy, >Radiation; Law Of Inverse Squares; 2nd Law Of Electricity. Aether & >Magnetism; Electro-Magnetism; Earth A Magnet; Sun An Electro-Magnet; >Faraday's Lines Of Force; Terrestrial Magnetism; Solar Magnets; Cause Of >Rotation Of The Earth On Its Axis; Vortex Motion; Relative Motion Of Aether >& Matter; Vibrations In The Electro-Magnetic Theory Of Light. Aether & >Newton's Laws Of Motion: Aether &: Centrifugal Force, Centripetal Force, >Newton's 3 Laws Of Motion; Why Planets Revolve From West To East. Aether & >Kepler's Laws: Aether & Kepler's 3 Laws; Orbital Motion Of Moon; >Eccentricity Of Moon's Orbit; Sun & Kepler's 1st & 2nd Laws; Aether & Plane >Of Ecliptic; Centripetal Force. Aether & Comets: What Is A Comet?; Orbits >Of >Comets; Kinds Of Comets; Parts Of Comet; Centrifugal Force & Comets; >Formation Of Tails. Aether & Starry World: Stars & Kepler's Laws; Aether 7 >Nebulae; What Is A Nebulae?; Aether & Nebular Hypotheses; Kinds Of Nebulae. >Aether & Universe: Unity Of Universe; Construction Of Matter; Constitution >Of Matter; Quod Erat Faciendum; God & The Universe. Very Important Title! > >The Rational Non-Mystical Cosmos, The Mysticism Of Science Exploded. >George F. Gillette. 1933 384p. Profusely Illustrated With Superb >Cosmological Diagrams. Title Page: “Major ‘Mysteries’ Solved: Re-Creation, >Radiation, Heat Light, Color, Electricity, Gravitation & Internal Structure >Of Mass, Etc. The Single Law Of Nature, A Unitary Conception Of All Natural >Phenomena And Of The Subatomic Mechanism Of The Cosmos Novel, Original & >Revolutionary. The New Physics, Pure Newtonian Physics & Euclidian >Geometry. >The Greater Relativity Theory Of Subatomia, A Rational, Hypothetical System >Of The Cosmos In Its Entirety. Simple Mathematical Reasoning Versus The >Mystical Legerdemain Of Higher Mathematics. Ho Mystical Mathematics Of >Fourth Spatial Dimensionalism Employed, No Metaphysics. A Scientific >Version >Of Genesis.” Contents: Cosmic Cycles Of Velocity And Plane; Cosmic Planes >Of >Size And Cycles Of Velocity; Chart Of The Cosmos; Majestic Cyclorama Of The >Cosmos And Its Infinite Series Of Cycles Of Energy; First Law Of Nature; >Sole Source Of Energy; Relativity Of Power; Universality Of Energy; Mass & >Matter-Motion-Energy; Cosmic Cycles Of Empty Space; Re-Creation Of Higher >Plane Mass, Co-Swirlation; Growth & Shrinkage; Co-Bumped Swirls, Solar >Systems, Tornadoes; Vortex Systems; Cycles Of Power & Velocity; Ether >Swirls; Wheels Within Wheels; Cosmic Velocities; Newton’s Laws; Cosmic >Cycles Of Sound; Super Dimensions Of Space; Gyroscope; Color Velocities. A >Magnificent Cosmological Masterpiece Redefining The Fundamentals Of Science >From A Much Deeper Perspective. Not To Be Missed!! > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 16:10:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07980; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:05:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:05:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:05:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Glowing Adams motor pictures (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF8764.E9E45D40" Content-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"tqgKe3.0.Vy1.zgknu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF8764.E9E45D40 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-ID: See below. I suggested that it was stroboscope effect from overhead fluorescents, but he says the photo was made with daylight from a window. He also says that the effect takes awhile to appear, and if he touches the rotor with a ground wire, it goes away. It is not a glow, since it cannot be seen in total darkness. PS, "Jim" below is not the originator. It's a colleage who doesn't want his name used. Jim repeated the experiment with no results, but his rotor is grounded and the one in the photos is not. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:10:07 -0600 From: Jim Subject: Glowing Adams motor pictures Hi all, I have some information on glowing magnets. This seems to be legit and the pictures do tell the story. Please view http://1dove.com/fe/itglows.html when you have a chance. www.geocities.com/frenrg www.1dove.com/fe ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF8764.E9E45D40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 18:51:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA06773; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:48:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:48:20 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:47:27 EST Subject: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"T3E5x3.0.lf1.p3nnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have been running H2 no K calibrations all day today. At an offline suggestion by Fred Sparber regarding the problem with electrode flashover at <20 torr fill pressures that I try running at a lower power input. Thanks Fred, it got the tube voltage down and no flashover down to 5 torr. Some interesting results from today's runs though. You will recall that when running at 20 watt input, the tube temperature beginning to rise steeply at fill pressures less than 20 torr. (see the graph on the web page) Well, at a 10 watt power input, no rise in temperature is seen....??... Why? I don't know. I will post a graph of the temperature Vs fill pressure for the 10 watt runs later tonight (about 2100 PST). I'm at a loss to explain as to why this should be. Does auto catalysis occur in plain H2 when you get the plasma hot enough. Dr. Mills says yes. (suns corona) Or is it some kind of an artifact? With the results I've just seen can't think of a way that the second path heat loss suggested by Mike Schaffer might be the cause. Comments, suggestions always welcome. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 19:01:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13543; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:00:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:00:35 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 13:59:55 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA13512 Resent-Message-ID: <"AlFVk2.0.QJ3.HFnnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:47:27 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > All, > > I have been running H2 no K calibrations all day today. >At an offline suggestion by Fred Sparber regarding the >problem with electrode flashover at <20 torr fill pressures >that I try running at a lower power input. Thanks Fred, it >got the tube voltage down and no flashover down to 5 torr. Was this at 10 watt, as suggested below? > > Some interesting results from today's runs though. You >will recall that when running at 20 watt input, the tube >temperature beginning to rise steeply at fill pressures less >than 20 torr. (see the graph on the web page) > Well, at a 10 watt power input, no rise in >temperature is seen....??... Why? I don't know. I will [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 19:08:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15388; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:05:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:05:36 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:05:00 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"_E5Yo3.0.Mm3._Jnnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/8/00 6:52:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, VCockeram aol.com writes: > Some interesting results from today's runs though. You > will recall that when running at 20 watt input, the tube > temperature beginning to rise steeply at fill pressures less > than 20 torr. (see the graph on the web page) > Well, at a 10 watt power input, no rise in > temperature is seen....??... Why? I don't know. I will > post a graph of the temperature Vs fill pressure for the > 10 watt runs later tonight (about 2100 PST). > I'm at a loss to explain as to why this should be. > Comments, suggestions always welcome. Finished the days runs and after graphing the data I see the above is not quite true. There IS a slight temperature rise starting at fill pressure below 20 torr, increasing to 10 torr, then dropping off at 5 torr, which is the lowest pressure I can run with this tube. Below 5 torr electrode flashover takes over and a bad arc will trash the microprogram (firmware) in the Texmate meter. I am uploading the graph to the webpage as soon as I send this. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 20:23:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA16934; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:21:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:21:51 -0800 Message-ID: <005b01bf891b$0d8c8b20$72441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Was The HRE-1 Self-Remediating? Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:25:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"TIHhz2.0.S84.VRonu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Whether one quibbles over whether or not the Ion Product of water is "Self-Ionization" or Intrinsic Positrino-Negatrino Pair Production/Presence, the "Ion Product" under the 1000 Psig (~ 68 Bar) 250 deg C conditions of the HRE-1 Experiment was about 1,000 times greater than the "Ion Product" of water at 25 Deg C and atmospheric pressure. IOW, the ionization from the nuclear processes can actually provide the 13.6 ev ionization energy required by the hydrogen (Alpha, Beta, and Gamma Radiation)from decay of the radioisotopes in the water produce Protons/Deuterons that will take up the Negatrino and form a 3-6 Fermi (Radius) Neutral particle, P* or D* that can effect remediation "in situ": P* + Tc-99 ---> Ru-100 + Negatrino + ~ 9.4 Mev P* + Cs-137 ----> Ba-138 + Negatrino + ~9.0 Mev P* + Sr-90 ----> Y-91 + Negatrino ---> Zr-91 + ~9.0 Mev OTOH, if you buy Mills' "Fractional Orbit Hydrino" hypothesis, you can expect some added heat, and some "Exciting "New Chemical Compounds" that should already exist in abundance in the Nuke waste tanks up at Hanford. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 21:08:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30034; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:08:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:08:00 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <4c.2970595.25f88b8a aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:07:22 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"5nLw1.0.BL7.l6pnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have updated the webpage with a link to a second page that has the graph for the 20 watt run and a new graph of the runs conducted on Wedensday at 10 watts power input. As can be seen, at 10 watts input there is still a temperature rise at lower fills but not as pronounced as at the higher 20 watt input. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 21:17:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA31209; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:11:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:11:30 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <31.233f71a.25f88c5a aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:10:50 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Resent-Message-ID: <"nDnbN1.0.Zd7.1Apnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/8/00 7:02:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > Was this at 10 watt, as suggested below? > > > > > Some interesting results from today's runs though. You > >will recall that when running at 20 watt input, the tube > >temperature beginning to rise steeply at fill pressures less > >than 20 torr. (see the graph on the web page) > > Well, at a 10 watt power input, no rise in > >temperature is seen....??... Why? I don't know. I will > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > Yes it was Robin, 10 watts. But there still a slight rise in temperature, but much less than the 20 watt runs. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 22:49:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24463; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:48:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:48:58 -0800 Message-ID: <20000309064856.3964.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:48:56 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"S4PjC2.0.9-5.Pbqnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > Individual vortex filaments must either be circles, or they must terminate > upon surfaces. A REAL WORLD vortex can be imagined as a bundle of vortex > filaments. I learned a lot about this stuff from arguing with the experts > about what REALLY makes airplanes fly. :) > [snip] >> If yes, then what is a tornado...? > > That's a good question! The bottom of the tornado terminates on the > ground, but where's the upper termination point? If the vortex doesn't > "land" on something, then it must arc around and connect to its bottom > somehow. I never see anyone talking about this question. I don't know the answer. If I had time (which I do not these days), I'd look up the derivation of the standard result that "Individual vortex filaments must either be circles, or they must terminate upon surfaces" to see what are the conditions for the validity of the proof. I venture a guess that the proof might exclude temporally evolving vortices of some class(es). Otherwise, the vortices trailing an airplane could never form starting from a motionless wing on a windless day, and the plane could never take off! In the same vein, any vortex would have to be formed everywhere around a closed circle or between two surfaces in zero time, which would require infinite propagation speed. No, I suspect the theorem has some restrictions. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 8 23:13:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29092; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:09:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:09:55 -0800 Message-ID: <20000309070953.5024.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:09:53 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"UIB6y.0.Q67.2vqnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, > Some interesting results from today's runs though. You > will recall that when running at 20 watt input, the tube > temperature beginning to rise steeply at fill pressures less > than 20 torr. (see the graph on the web page) > Well, at a 10 watt power input, no rise in > temperature is seen....??... Why? I don't know. I will > post a graph of the temperature Vs fill pressure for the > 10 watt runs later tonight (about 2100 PST). > I'm at a loss to explain as to why this should be. [snip] > With the results I've just seen can't think of a way that the > second path heat loss suggested by Mike Schaffer might > be the cause. In a glow discharge the fractions of the input power that appear as heating to cathode, anode and out the side wall all change slowly as a function of current density and gas pressure. The fractions also change if you change the gas composition and the cathode metal. From the photos your web page (good job--useful information), your calorimeter does not look like it measures heat escaping along the electrodes and the ends of the quartz tube. Therefore, since not all the heat is captured, and since the heat captured depends on many factors, it is not surprising that the calorimeter temperature does not remain constant while pressure is varied while input power is held constant. Furthermore, it is to be expected that the temperature will be different again when you add potassium. You need to capture most of the heat and run it past your temperature sensor(s). Unless you have a reproducible, one-to-one relation between power and temperature that is independent of all other variables, you cannot do the experiment you want to do. I tried a couple of calorimetry setups with my glow discharge several years ago, but they were not satisfactory. I made trial designs of several improved calorimeters for it, but I was never satisfied that they would work well enough, and they were all too complicated. If I were to go back to doing such experiments again, I would start by trying to design a compatible water flow calorimeter along the lines of Scott Little's. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 02:08:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA21548; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:06:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:06:53 -0800 Message-ID: <20000309100621.99369.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.143] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Test Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 02:06:21 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"R0rJH2.0.cG5.zUtnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And I get the feeling my comments are being blocked and ignored by the majority of this list. Pretty funny. Ignorance for all of history to witnesss. Wheeeeee!!!!!! David >From: Michael Schaffer >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Test >Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:48:56 -0800 (PST) > >[snip] > > Individual vortex filaments must either be circles, or they must >terminate > > upon surfaces. A REAL WORLD vortex can be imagined as a bundle of >vortex > > filaments. I learned a lot about this stuff from arguing with the >experts > > about what REALLY makes airplanes fly. :) > > >[snip] > >> If yes, then what is a tornado...? > > > > That's a good question! The bottom of the tornado terminates on the > > ground, but where's the upper termination point? If the vortex doesn't > > "land" on something, then it must arc around and connect to its bottom > > somehow. I never see anyone talking about this question. > >I don't know the answer. If I had time (which I do not these days), I'd >look >up the derivation of the standard result that "Individual vortex filaments >must either be circles, or they must terminate upon surfaces" to see what >are >the conditions for the validity of the proof. I venture a guess that the >proof might exclude temporally evolving vortices of some class(es). >Otherwise, the vortices trailing an airplane could never form starting from >a >motionless wing on a windless day, and the plane could never take off! In >the >same vein, any vortex would have to be formed everywhere around a closed >circle or between two surfaces in zero time, which would require infinite >propagation speed. No, I suspect the theorem has some restrictions. > >===== >Michael J. Schaffer > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 05:29:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27750; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:27:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:27:58 -0800 Message-ID: <000501bf89d3$7b8546e0$ef441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Magnesium Oxide (MgO) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 06:26:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8990.675CE3A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"KkJqA.0.Wn6.URwnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8990.675CE3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to my rough calculations MgO powder should be about 25 times as good a heat conductor as Sand. Very refractory and a good electrical insulator. Used in sheathed thermocouples, and dirt cheap. http://www.reade.com/Products/Oxides/magnesium_oxide.html They feed it to cattle too. :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8990.675CE3A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Magnesium Oxide (MgO) from READE.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Magnesium Oxide (MgO) from READE.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.reade.com/Products/Oxides/magnesium_oxide.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.reade.com/Products/Oxides/magnesium_oxide.html Modified=40B276C9D289BF014C ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8990.675CE3A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 06:46:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15493; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 06:43:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 06:43:57 -0800 Message-Id: <200003091443.JAA27856 mercury.mv.net> Subject: BlackLight ad in Science Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:35:54 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"EWY5Y2.0._n3.iYxnu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians I just noticed that BlackLight Power has a half-page employment ad in Science 3/3/2000 too -- in addition to C&EN. This could be a trend -- *paying* to get around the "sneer review" process! Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 07:22:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30921; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:21:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:21:03 -0800 Message-ID: <38C7C228.31EEFC32 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:24:24 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Oil-Gate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e4JOM2.0.zY7.T5ynu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: http://www.elsi.org/renewable.htm <><><><><><><><><><><><> Scientist says Earth's Petroleum Supply is Replenishing Itself Depleted oil pools seem to be renewing themselves inexplicably. Is petroleum a renewable resource? According to renowned scientist Thomas Gold that's just about right! Forget everything you thought you knew about fossil fuels and dinosaur remains, in an article published recently by the Washington Post, Gold explains that hydrocarbons exist abundantly deep inside the earth's core and interact biologically with other life substances to continuously produce self renewing springs of petroleum. This could be great news for vulnerable countries like the United States. This report comes at a time when fuel prices are soaring, largely due to America's huge dependency on unpredicable foreign producers to supply crude oil. Some say this news may well shatter the conventional belief that petroleum is not a renewable resource. At the heart of Gold's theory though, is the existence of a controversial underground "biosphere", from which he says all planetary life originates. No Flake Gold has never shied away from controversy. A Vienna-born physicist, cosmologist and "general scientific heavy lifter", the Post notes that Gold "founded and for many years directed the Cornell Center for Radiophysics and Space Research. In his 79 years he's authored more than 280 scholarly papers on subjects ranging from astronomy to zoology." According to the Post, "he's also a full-time heretic, periodically parachuting into some new scientific field and infuriating academic plodders there with some outlandishly bold new theory. More annoying, his theories usually turn out to be right. Worst of all, he thinks the orthodox have so gummed up the gates of knowledge that they were more open to breakthroughs 50 years ago." The Washington Post Story, published last November, says that Gold has been labeled "one of America's most iconoclastic scientists." Gold himself is quoted as saying: "In choosing a hypothesis there is no virtue in being timid ... [but] I clearly would have been burned at the stake in another age." The Post notes that Gold, "who holds prestigious appointments to the National Academy of Sciences and the Royal Society of London, turned his attention to petroleum during the energy crisis of the late 1970s." And Gold's career has been astonishing. The Post offers this chronicle: "In 1947, fresh from pioneering wartime work on the development of radar, he used his research into high-frequency receptors to publish an entire new theory of mammalian hearing. Physiologists shrugged it off for 30 years. Until auditory technology evolved enough to prove him correct. "In 1959, when everybody thought the surface of the moon was frozen lava, Gold decided it was covered with dust from meteor impacts. Footprints of the Apollo astronauts will testify eternally that he was right about that, too. "In 1967 astronomers trashed his suggestion that energy pulsating in the distant universe was the signature of collapsing stars. The subsequent observation of pulsars won two other scientists a Nobel Prize. And proved Gold correct. "In 1992 he predicted that Martian meteorites might contain fossilized microbes. Four years later NASA announced the same thing." "The Deep Hot Biosphere" Gold's views are articulated in his new book, "The Deep Hot Biosphere". Central to his views is his idea that the origin and bulk of biological life is not on the surface of the Earth but deep within it. Life forms on the surface like plants and animals are later adaptations. Crucial to all this, is Gold's finding that petroleum molecules are abundant throughout the universe and "an inexhaustible supply", created by the "Big Bang" lie trapped within the earth's molten core. According to the Post, Gold argues that "the long-held assumption that oil comes from the millennial composting of dinosaurs and ancient swamps has always been dubious, whatever school science books may say." Gold's "theory of a deep, hot biosphere doesn't just solve its contradictions, it sorts out in the process such minor matters as the origin of all earthly life and its relationship with the rest of the universe." How does it all work? The Washington Post story explains Gold's theory like this: "Oil and gas were born out of the Big Bang and trapped in the Earth 4.5 billion years ago in randomly dispersed molecular form. But the intense heat of the Earth's volcanic core "sweats them out" of the rocks that contain them, sending them migrating outward through the porous deep Earth because they are more fluid and weigh less. In a region between 10 and 300 kilometers deep, the hydrocarbons nourish vast colonies of microbes where all of earthly life began, and where today there's a vastly greater mass of living things than exist on the surface of the planet. The migrating oil and gas "sweep up" the biological wreckage of this life as they percolate upward, together with molecules of helium, all of which eventually get trapped and concentrated for periods in near-surface reservoirs where oil is usually found." Sound far out? The Post notes that "in the years since Gold first noised the outlines of his theory, researchers throughout the world have documented extensively the presence of active microbes in the deep Earth under conditions of heat and pressure once thought impossible to sustain life." Some scientist think similar forces are at work elsewhere in the solar system, perhaps on Jupiter's moon Europa. Furthermore, astronomers have detected petroleum molecules deep in space, where plant life is not thought to be possible. Getting back to more Earthly matters, the Post adds however, "some oil reservoirs long thought exhausted now appear to be mysteriously refilling." Timely News This news couldn't come at a better time. Recent decisions to cut petro production by the OPEC nations have left Americans struggling to catch their breaths in the wake of this latest oil shock. The resultant sky rocketing oil prices seem to reach new pinnacles every day. Prices for crude have reached a nine-year high surpassing levels not seen since the Gulf War. Some analysts now suggest publicly that gasoline prices may hit as high as $2 at the pumps before leveling out later this year. Unfortunately though, Gold's ideas aren't likely to result in any technological breakthroughs in time to impact this most recent crisis. Some American's are considering other actions, including "gas outs", protests to show indignation, and calls for a federal investigation to find out why existing crude stocks aren't finding there way to suffering consumers. In fact, fires, explosions, and unplanned down time seems to have been wreaking havoc with refinery operators ever since the beginning of the new year, aggravating the problem by causing shortages of refined products and fueling frequent price spikes. One man, Jim Bell, founder of the 22 year old Ecological Life Systems Institute (ELSI) suggests that the oil industry has not been forthcoming with the public about the status of their domestic refinery equipment. Could they be trying to hide something? "Barely a year ago, Congress was told that only about 30% of U.S. refineries would be ready for Y2K. At the same time, special laws were rammed through Congress keeping the Y2K readiness level of their systems a secret from the public. It's hard to believe that all this sudden failure of refinery equipment is merely a coincidence. I think its outrageous that they can't open their secret files now and let us see what's behind all the accident' and injuries." Bell is advocating a grassroots signature drive from his website, www.elsi.org, to compel President Clinton to conduct a public investigation into the role-played by refineries in the current run up of gas prices. Whatever the cause, U.S. Department of Energy spokesmen have warned that the current shortage of refined products could well extends into the summer driving season. Refinery problems aside though, scientists may be hard at work validating Gold's theories. Is petroleum really renewable? Many within the industry remain skeptical. Plus, cleaner and more efficient fuels are now on the horizon. Still, the potential discovery of newly forming petroleum ponds and the development of abundant natural gas reserves within our own borders could, at least for the near future, save American consumers from our dependence on imported oil and the threat it poses to our lifestyles and security. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 08:33:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25353; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:31:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:31:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:31:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP: project underway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LnkFG2.0.3C6.y7znu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The high-fidelity replication of Mills' light-water-Ni-K electrolysis experiment (with reported gains ranging from 200% to 1600%) is underway. I wrote Dr. Mills and informed him of our intention to perform a rigorous replication of the experiment and asked him if the protocol described in pp 472- of his Sept 1996 Edition was still the recommended protocol and he responded: >That should work. If you have trouble, let me know. I am ordering materials now...whenever possible, the exact same items that Mills used. There is a confusion on the nature of the cathode which I have already asked Mills about: On page 472 (Sept 1996 edition), there is a drawing of the cell, which clearly indicates that the Ni cathode was a cylinder coiled up from sheet material. However, on page 473 (2nd paragraph) it says, "The cathode comprised 24 meters of 0.38 mm diameter Ni wire....coiled about the central Pt anode." On the same page (4th paragraph) it says, "the Ni cathode was removed from its container with rubber gloves, and cut and folded in such a way...", which again suggests Ni sheet rather than Ni wire. Which should I use, Ni wire or Ni sheet? If the latter, what thickness is preferred? If the former, how did you make the coil of Ni wire hold its shape? Seems like it would droop like a floppy spring without some kind of ties. Any opinions on this matter from the Vorts? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 09:03:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06593; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:02:40 -0800 Message-Id: <200003091702.MAA11444 mercury.mv.net> Subject: BlacklLght ad Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:54:38 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"M0Jq03.0.sc1.laznu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The ad below appeared in Science magazine, March 3, 2000 -- identical in text to the C&EN (Chemical & Engineering News) ad of 2/28/2000. Gene Mallove ******* Be A Part of the Chemical and Energy Revolution. BlackLight (SM TM) Power, Inc. is developing the most revolutionary chemical and energy process. In the last ten years, support for the BlackLight (SM TM) process has been gaining widespread acceptance and subsequent practical applications. There is incredible growth potential for those who want to be on the threshold of a new and dynamic industry. Join us and discover how powerful your future can become. We have the following excellent opportunities available. Ph.D. level Analytical and Inorganic Chemists Working in a dynamic environment, your main function will consist of novel inorganic chemical synthesis (isolate, identify, and purify) in bench scale experiments. Knowledge of chemical processes, high temperature and heterogeneous catalysis is preferred. Familiarity with one or more of the following is required: NMR, XPS, MS, IR, Raman spectrometry, XRD, electrochemistry, inert atmosphere, schlenk, and high vacuum techniques. Must work effectively, both independently and within a research team and possess strong organization, communication, problem-solving and trouble-shooting skills Analytical Instrumentation Research Assistants Must have operational experience utilizing XPS, TOF-SIMS, NMR, or ESI-MS. These individuals will be primarily responsible for operating analytical equipment to support research teams conducting isolation, purification and identification of novel inorganic compounds. -Scientists and Engineers Will conduct experiments and build pilot reactors involving high temperature gases and chemicals in bench and pilot scale systems. Knowledge of thin film, plasma discharge, vacuum systems, inorganic chemical processes, heat transfer, high temperature materials, data acquisition systems and controls are preferred, A minimum of 3 years experience desired. Chemistry, Physics, Materials Science, and Mechanical Engineering backgrounds are desired, . Technicians Will assist research teams conducting bench and pilot scale experiments involving high temperature gases and chemicals and will be involved in the design and construction of process reactor systems. Ideal candidates will have a minimum of 3 years employment experience and possess a basic understanding of electronics, vacuum systems and/or chemistry, A working knowledge of one or more of the following skills is also requiredassembling, machining, metal working, welding, woodworking. Battery Scientist and Engineers These individuals will study electrochemical properties of proprietary inorganic hydrides as part of our battery development team. The ideal candidate will have experience developing and testing compounds for use within primary and secondary batteries. The project will include formulating and characterizing compounds, and studying compounds in test cells, Electrical Engineers Will build, install, and design various electronic devices using low voltage high gain instrumentation amplifiers, medium power constant current devices, voltage dividers, sensing alarms and indicators, photo diodes and photomultipliers, silicon controlled rectifiers, Blacklight Power Inc. offers a competitive salary and comprehensive benefits package. Interested applicants should reference the position you are seeking and ad code S330ODS directly on your resume' and fax it to: Human Resources, (609) 490-1066 or e-mail, to dscoroka blacklightpower.com. EOE BLACKLIGHT POWER INC. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 09:12:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10052; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:09:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:09:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000309120825.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 12:08:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ypVWq2.0.xS2.mgznu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >I wrote Dr. Mills and informed him of our intention to perform a rigorous >replication of the experiment and asked him if the protocol described in pp >472- of his Sept 1996 Edition was still the recommended protocol and he >responded: > >>That should work. If you have trouble, let me know. The fact that he responded at all is good news! If you experience difficulty, you might also contact John Farrell. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 09:57:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02731; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:56:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:56:51 -0800 Message-ID: <38C7E52A.12E9 skylink.net> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:53:46 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BlackLight ad in Science References: <200003091443.JAA27856 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l0wT71.0.bg.YN-nu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > I just noticed that BlackLight Power has a half-page employment ad in > Science 3/3/2000 too -- in addition to C&EN. This could be a trend -- > *paying* to get around the "sneer review" process! There are more than a few recent examples of this. Forming a new sect can be a tricky business. Hiring and indoctrinating an appropriate corps of talented professional advocates can quickly drain available resources. With limited resources, and without concurrent development of experimental indications of validity and the potential of marketable devices, the sect will most likely have a short history. -- Achtung! Speculation Alert -- There may exist intelligent life in this universe with substantially more scientific knowledge than human beings. It is possible that this advanced species might view a somewhat intelligent but rapidly developing species, as a potential future competitor. A sufficiently advanced race with essentially unlimited resources, and the time and where-with-all to attain political control of a planet's established institutions, could succeed rather quickly in getting any number of mis-leading half-true theories promoted to dogma, and might also be able to essentially eradicate consciousness of anathemous theories and experiments. With sufficient experience in this practice, one could develop a neatly bundled portfolio of half-true theories, any of which could be used to demonstrate the truth of the others. There might always be a few fools who would insist on trying to point out apparent flaws and idiosyncracies -- but with much the same effect as going into a church and proclaiming that the pope is not Catholic. But, one might ask -- For what purpose would an intelligent species invest the enormous time, resources, and energy required in the above practice, rather than simply eliminating the developing species? In any case, it is just part of an outline for a science fiction story. Eh? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 11:29:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03627; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:24:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:24:45 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:24:07 EST Subject: Re: BlacklLght ad To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"qyVH83.0.Zu.yf_nu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/9/00 9:03:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor infinite-energy.com writes: > The ad below appeared in Science magazine, March 3, 2000 -- identical in > text to the C&EN (Chemical & Engineering News) ad of 2/28/2000. > > Gene Mallove > ******* > > > Be A Part of the Chemical and Energy Revolution. > > BlackLight (SM TM) Power, Inc. is developing the most revolutionary > chemical and energy process. > . Technicians > > Will assist research teams conducting bench and pilot scale experiments > involving high temperature gases and chemicals and will be involved in > the design and construction of process reactor systems. Ideal candidates > will have a minimum of 3 years employment experience and possess a basic > understanding of electronics, vacuum systems and/or chemistry, A working > knowledge of one or more of the following skills is also > required: assembling, machining, metal working, welding, woodworking. > > If I lived in New Jersey I would jump at this in a New York minute. I meet and exceed all of the above requirements. > BLACKLIGHT POWER INC. > Vince Cockeram Las Vegas http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 11:38:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20770; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:35:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:35:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38C7FD90.DF9004B8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 12:37:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: project underway References: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sZwaK2.0.L45.5q_nu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, the phenomenon seems to depend on surface area. Therefore, use of wire makes more sense than using a plate of Ni. The coil can be stabilized by spot welding strips of heavy Ni wire from one end of the coil to the other at various positions around the circumference. Please seal the cell and use a recombiner. If Mills is correct, you should find that recombination does not occur because he claims the hydrino atoms will not react with oxygen and can diffuse out through the glass. Consequently, gas will be generated by the cell regardless of whether a catalyst is present or not. On the other hand, if no gas is produced, you may be producing the cold fusion reaction as done by Bush, CETI and others. Good luck. Ed Scott Little wrote: > The high-fidelity replication of Mills' light-water-Ni-K electrolysis > experiment (with reported gains ranging from 200% to 1600%) is underway. > > I wrote Dr. Mills and informed him of our intention to perform a rigorous > replication of the experiment and asked him if the protocol described in pp > 472- of his Sept 1996 Edition was still the recommended protocol and he > responded: > > >That should work. If you have trouble, let me know. > > I am ordering materials now...whenever possible, the exact same items that > Mills used. There is a confusion on the nature of the cathode which I have > already asked Mills about: > > On page 472 (Sept 1996 edition), there is a drawing of the cell, which > clearly indicates that the Ni cathode was a cylinder coiled up from sheet > material. > > However, on page 473 (2nd paragraph) it says, "The cathode comprised 24 > meters of 0.38 mm diameter Ni wire....coiled about the central Pt anode." > > On the same page (4th paragraph) it says, "the Ni cathode was removed from > its container with rubber gloves, and cut and folded in such a way...", > which again suggests Ni sheet rather than Ni wire. > > Which should I use, Ni wire or Ni sheet? If the latter, what thickness is > preferred? If the former, how did you make the coil of Ni wire hold its > shape? Seems like it would droop like a floppy spring without some kind of > ties. > > Any opinions on this matter from the Vorts? > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 12:04:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19818; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:01:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:01:21 -0800 Message-ID: <006d01bf8a02$05214f60$1f637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> <38C7FD90.DF9004B8@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:59:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"J28_g2.0.ar4.HC0ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: > Scott, the phenomenon seems to depend on surface area. Aside from fidelity to the protocol, why not use Nickel Fibrex? Ed Wall > > Scott Little wrote: > > > The high-fidelity replication of Mills' light-water-Ni-K electrolysis > > experiment (with reported gains ranging from 200% to 1600%) is underway. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 12:34:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00415; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:49 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:46:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BlackLight ad in Science Resent-Message-ID: <"hKx4q3.0.G6.mf0ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Robert, Glad to see you are still in the neighborhood. At 9:53 AM 3/9/0, Robert Stirniman wrote: >But, one might ask -- For what purpose would an intelligent >species invest the enormous time, resources, and energy required in >the above practice, rather than simply eliminating the developing >species? Pedagogical purposes, and as a delaying tactic. A nuclear reactor requires a moderator to avoid self distruction. Perhapes runaway technology does too? Besides, as evidenced here on vortex, it takes almost no effort or resources to propose wild-eyed theories as compared to the effort and resources to test them. >In any case, it is just part of an outline for a science fiction >story. Eh? I look forward to the movie. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 12:35:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00371; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:44 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:46:13 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Resent-Message-ID: <"-IDo93.0.j5.hf0ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:31 AM 3/9/0, Scott Little wrote: >Any opinions on this matter from the Vorts? It sounds like the write-up was blended from two or more experiments. This is not a good indication of rigorously written documentation. It would be much better to have access to lab notes. I think your approach of trying to exactly replicate is good, and no deviations or "improvements" should be made intially. Hopefull Mills will tell you what BLP uses. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 12:41:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02709; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:38:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:38:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000309153759.0079c530 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:37:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <006d01bf8a02$05214f60$1f637dc7 computer> References: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> <38C7FD90.DF9004B8 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ufWQq.0.Bg.Hl0ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: >Aside from fidelity to the protocol . . . Urk! >why not use Nickel Fibrex? Ummm . . . 'Cause of fidelity to protocal? Is this a trick question? (Seriously, why not use Nickel Fibrex if the present test does not work?) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 13:00:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10542; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:55:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:55:33 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <86.159e5b0.25f969ac aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:55:08 EST Subject: Re: BLP: project underway To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"2qp0Q.0.ba2.3_0ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/9/00 8:34:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: > The high-fidelity replication of Mills' light-water-Ni-K electrolysis > experiment (with reported gains ranging from 200% to 1600%) is underway. > > I wrote Dr. Mills and informed him of our intention to perform a rigorous > replication of the experiment and asked him if the protocol described in pp > 472- of his Sept 1996 Edition was still the recommended protocol and he > responded: > > >That should work. If you have trouble, let me know. I too, have received several encouraging e-mails in the past two days from BLP. > I am ordering materials now...whenever possible, the exact same items that > Mills used. There is a confusion on the nature of the cathode.... <> > > Any opinions on this matter from the Vorts? > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) The following may be of interest Scott. It is a post to SPF on 4 Nov 1991. I have uploaded the entire SPF post to my web site, snipped here to save bandwidth. At the home page click on the link to Farrel's Text; it's down near the bottom of the page ===============begin SPF post============================ Originally-from: Newsgroups: Sci.Physics.Fusion Subject: Excess heat Date: 4 NOV 1991 21:47:47 Organization: Sci.Physics.Fusion/Mail Gateway TIPS ON REPEATING THE EXPERIMENT 1. Use normal water, H2O not D2O, unless you are looking for tritium or neutrons. Essentially all of the heat is **NOT** caused by fusion but by some other physical process--namely shrinkage of hydrogen atoms from the N=1 state to the N=1/2 state. (I know this is hard to believe, particularly for someone like me who has taught quantum chemistry for 25 years, but life **is** stranger than fiction.) 2. Ni foil or wire can be used. The Ni should be clean. Handle the Ni with cotton or plastic gloves. Do **not** clean the Ni nitric acid or organic solvents. 3. About 0.6 M K2CO3 is best. Lower and higher concentrations work but not as well. 4. Use a current density of 1 ma/cm2 with a foil or 2 ma/cm2 with a wire. Most researchers are using current densities that are **too high**. The object is to form H atoms on the surface of the NiHx. These H atoms then can undergo a catalytic shrinkage in the presence of K+ (or other suitable ion). If a high current density is used the H atoms are forced off the surface. (The Ni does not enter into the reaction, it simply is a surface on which the H atoms can form.) 5.It is important to electropolish the Ni cathode before beginning the calorimetry. That is, run the electrolysis (preferably in the calorimetry cell) for about half an hour to an hour with the Ni as the anode and the Pt as the cathode. < John Farrell Franklin & Marshall College ==============================end SPF post======================= Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 13:25:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22245; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:23:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:23:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000309162259.007a2100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 16:22:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <86.159e5b0.25f969ac aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gM0Kz1.0.QR5.WP1ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: >The following may be of interest Scott. It is a post to SPF on 4 Nov 1991. >I have uploaded the entire SPF post to my web site, snipped here to >save bandwidth. At the home page click on the link to Farrel's Text; it's >down near the bottom of the page > >===============begin SPF post============================ > >Originally-from: >Newsgroups: Sci.Physics.Fusion >Subject: Excess heat Scott: I recommend you copy all messages about this project to Farrell, including these messages and anything else you come up with private discussions. Unless he tells you to stop! Or invite him here. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 14:00:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04873; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:54:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:54:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <007501bf8a13$08e04370$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <86.159e5b0.25f969ac aol.com> Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:01:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"5DC_D1.0.1C1.Rs1ou" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: > I too, have received several encouraging e-mails in the past two days from > BLP. > I wonder if BLP is becoming more interested in encouraging replications now that their first US patent has issued. There is often something to be learned from each different experiment in such a new field and additional publicity from successful replications should help break the skepticism barrier. Vince, if you want to include a link on your web page, the graphs of results from your earlier experiments are still on the Varitronics site at: http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 14:05:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32707; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:54:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:54:58 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:54:49 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sK-Lh2.0.x-7.ms1ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott If I remember correctly, the last time you tried to test a Mill's device you were stonewalled when you requested information. Has this changed now? Hank On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Scott Little wrote: > The high-fidelity replication of Mills' light-water-Ni-K electrolysis > experiment (with reported gains ranging from 200% to 1600%) is underway. > > I wrote Dr. Mills and informed him of our intention to perform a rigorous > replication of the experiment and asked him if the protocol described in pp > 472- of his Sept 1996 Edition was still the recommended protocol and he > responded: > > >That should work. If you have trouble, let me know. > > I am ordering materials now...whenever possible, the exact same items that > Mills used. There is a confusion on the nature of the cathode which I have > already asked Mills about: > > On page 472 (Sept 1996 edition), there is a drawing of the cell, which > clearly indicates that the Ni cathode was a cylinder coiled up from sheet > material. > > However, on page 473 (2nd paragraph) it says, "The cathode comprised 24 > meters of 0.38 mm diameter Ni wire....coiled about the central Pt anode." > > On the same page (4th paragraph) it says, "the Ni cathode was removed from > its container with rubber gloves, and cut and folded in such a way...", > which again suggests Ni sheet rather than Ni wire. > > Which should I use, Ni wire or Ni sheet? If the latter, what thickness is > preferred? If the former, how did you make the coil of Ni wire hold its > shape? Seems like it would droop like a floppy spring without some kind of > ties. > > Any opinions on this matter from the Vorts? > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 17:43:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09590; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:39:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:39:20 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:43:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"B1kzP3.0.iL2.595ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: YES... ask the man! On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Scott Little wrote: > The high-fidelity replication of Mills' light-water-Ni-K electrolysis > experiment (with reported gains ranging from 200% to 1600%) is underway. > > I wrote Dr. Mills and informed him of our intention to perform a rigorous > replication of the experiment and asked him if the protocol described in pp > 472- of his Sept 1996 Edition was still the recommended protocol and he > responded: > > >That should work. If you have trouble, let me know. > > I am ordering materials now...whenever possible, the exact same items that > Mills used. There is a confusion on the nature of the cathode which I have > already asked Mills about: > > On page 472 (Sept 1996 edition), there is a drawing of the cell, which > clearly indicates that the Ni cathode was a cylinder coiled up from sheet > material. > > However, on page 473 (2nd paragraph) it says, "The cathode comprised 24 > meters of 0.38 mm diameter Ni wire....coiled about the central Pt anode." > > On the same page (4th paragraph) it says, "the Ni cathode was removed from > its container with rubber gloves, and cut and folded in such a way...", > which again suggests Ni sheet rather than Ni wire. > > Which should I use, Ni wire or Ni sheet? If the latter, what thickness is > preferred? If the former, how did you make the coil of Ni wire hold its > shape? Seems like it would droop like a floppy spring without some kind of > ties. > > Any opinions on this matter from the Vorts? > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 19:54:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA23988; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:52:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:52:36 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <90.1a5dbff.25f9cb54 aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:51:48 EST Subject: Re: BLP: project underway To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"Du-w33.0.Zs5._57ou" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/9/00 1:25:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes: > >Originally-from: > >Newsgroups: Sci.Physics.Fusion > >Subject: Excess heat > > Scott: I recommend you copy all messages about this project to Farrell, > including these messages and anything else you come up with private > discussions. Unless he tells you to stop! Or invite him here. > > - Jed > Jed, I communicated with Dr. Farrell about a month ago after he had posted a message on SPF. I gave him the link to the Vortex-L group. He replied that he would give it a look. Don't know if he ever did though. BTW his present E-mail address is: J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU (John Farrell) On another note, the verbal vomit spewing skeptics have been mighty quiet over on SPF after an initial eruption regarding the BLP patent. Virtually no response to Dr. Ed Storms post there at all. I wonder if they are all sulking under their rocks. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 20:07:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA26532; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:01:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:01:13 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:00:29 EST Subject: Re: BLP: project underway To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"9SE9p1.0.UU6.9E7ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/9/00 1:58:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, george varisys.com writes: > I wonder if BLP is becoming more interested in encouraging > replications now that their first US patent has issued. There > is often something to be learned from each different experiment > in such a new field and additional publicity from successful > replications should help break the skepticism barrier. I wondered about that too since they seem to have my variation of their process covered pretty well in that patent. I say, good for them. I was only running this experiment out of extreme curiosity. > Vince, if you want to include a link on your web page, the graphs of > results from your earlier experiments are still on the Varitronics site at: > http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm Gee, I had forgotten about that...brain damage. Yes, I will do that tonight. Thanks for the reminder. > - > Regards, > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East > Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 9 21:35:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19357; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:34:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:34:50 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:32:53 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"NYZj-3.0.Nk4.vb8ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, At the request of several members of this group I have enlarged the font sizes on the graphs and added a link to the early experiment run graphs located at George Holtz's website http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 00:51:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA26707; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:44:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:44:22 -0800 Message-ID: <00ad01bf8ad1$59196e20$378cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: BlackLight ad in Science Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:43:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TJ3eS3.0.DX6.cNBou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robert, > >-- Achtung! Speculation Alert -- I see "Gods Of Eden" made quite an impression on you :-) > >There may exist intelligent life in this universe with substantially >more scientific knowledge than human beings. Consider that a fact, if you like. It is possible >that this advanced species might view a somewhat intelligent but >rapidly developing species, as a potential future competitor. Or as a useful gene pool. > >A sufficiently advanced race with essentially unlimited resources, >and the time and where-with-all to attain political control of a >planet's established institutions, could succeed rather quickly >in getting any number of mis-leading half-true theories promoted to >dogma, and might also be able to essentially eradicate consciousness >of anathemous theories and experiments. > >But, one might ask -- For what purpose would an intelligent >species invest the enormous time, resources, and energy required in >the above practice, rather than simply eliminating the developing >species? The reasons for this would be unacceptable to even your typical 'anathemous' scientist. Let's just say that this is a long baseline experiment in cultural diffusion and leave it at that :-) > >In any case, it is just part of an outline for a science fiction >story. Eh? Oh right, I forgot for a moment there :-) Fred > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 07:25:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11108; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:22:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:22:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000410092159.0124083c earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:21:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <38C7FD90.DF9004B8 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"I6aVL2.0.Rj2.nCHou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:37 PM 3/9/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Scott, the phenomenon seems to depend on surface area. Therefore, use of wire >makes more sense than using a plate of Ni. The coil can be stabilized by spot >welding strips of heavy Ni wire from one end of the coil to the other at >various positions around the circumference. Please seal the cell and use a >recombiner. I agree that the cell should not just let the gas out willy-nilly so I'll effect a seal at the lid but I'm not going to put a recombiner in the cell...that would be too great a departure. I'll convey the gases outside where I can measure the flowrate and perform various analyses, such as passing them over a recombiner to see what's left over, etc. >If Mills is correct, you should find that recombination does not >occur because he claims the hydrino atoms will not react with oxygen and can >diffuse out through the glass. Wow. That would eventually ruin the Dewars (the cell vessel IS the Dewar's inner glass lining). I'll have to watch for that. At 02:59 PM 3/9/00 -0500, Ed Wall wrote: >Aside from fidelity to the protocol, why not use Nickel Fibrex? As I mentioned a while back, I don't think the high surface area of Ni Fibrex comes into play in an electrolysis cell. The E-fields don't "see" down into the nooks and crannies of that stuff. This is a well-known problem in the plating industry. You can't plate the inside of small holes in your part...unless you stick an anode wire down into the hole. At 03:55 PM 3/9/00 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >The following may be of interest Scott. It is a post to SPF on 4 Nov 1991. >I have uploaded the entire SPF post to my web site, snipped here to >save bandwidth. At the home page click on the link to Farrel's Text; it's >down near the bottom of the page Very helpful, Vince. BLP is definitely changing their attitude...for the better! At 04:22 PM 3/9/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Scott: I recommend you copy all messages about this project to Farrell, >including these messages and anything else you come up with private >discussions. Unless he tells you to stop! Or invite him here. I'll do all of that, thanks! At 01:54 PM 3/9/00 -0800, hank scudder wrote: > If I remember correctly, the last time you tried to test a Mill's >device you were stonewalled when you requested information. Has this >changed now? Most definitely! I've had more email messages FROM Randall Mills in the past three days than in the previous three years! This morning he informed me, in response to my questions about the electrolytic experiment, that he was going have Bill Good help me set us a gas cell experiment instead...because the gas cell experiments are more impressive! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 07:53:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22831; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:51:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:51:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000310105110.0079dc10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:51:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000410092159.0124083c earthtech.org> References: <38C7FD90.DF9004B8 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000309103134.0123b2e0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wwkNV1.0.fa5.KeHou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >This morning he informed >me, in response to my questions about the electrolytic experiment, that he >was going have Bill Good help me set us a gas cell experiment >instead...because the gas cell experiments are more impressive! So, are you going to do that? I've heard Good is a good man. At this stage, I think more than "impressive" you want "reliable" or "will work." If the gas cell experiments are as reliable as the electrochem experiments I'd go for it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 11:43:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03451; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:20:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:20:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000310141918.0079a6b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:19:18 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mills changes strategy? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GnJjW2.0.br.chKou" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From what Scott Little and others have reported, it seems Mills has finally changed his business strategy and he is now prepared to open up and persuade the world his claims are true. That is good news, if true. Now that he has a patent there is no justification for keeping the work under wraps. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 12:22:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09596; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:20:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:20:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004a01bf8ac6$1a11e000$01637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000310141918.0079a6b0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mills changes strategy? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:23:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"2gwyT1.0.oL2.IaLou" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It makes a lot of sense to help others to replicate before the forecasted IPO. Ed Wall ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: Mills changes strategy? > >From what Scott Little and others have reported, it seems Mills has finally > changed his business strategy and he is now prepared to open up and > persuade the world his claims are true. That is good news, if true. Now > that he has a patent there is no justification for keeping the work under > wraps. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 12:35:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22152; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:19:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:19:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:19:23 -0500 From: "Susan J. Seddon" Subject: Special report on Atlanta highway carnage Sender: "Susan J. Seddon" To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <200003101519_MC2-9CA0-B0B0 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA22130 Resent-Message-ID: <"7fWkj2.0.2Q5.bZLou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Jed, It's not quite as insane on the roads over here, although we do have our moments. The latest spate of accidents involving pedestrians appears to be caused by motorists "rat-running" down suburban streets to avoid traffic-calming measures on main roads! BTW, when you write "curve", do you mean "kerb"? I hear that Bill Clinton is having the same problem with voice interface software........it just can't cope with those "southern boy" accents. - Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 12:37:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24166; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:24:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:24:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38C95AC8.E9B2F72C bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:27:52 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Gravity Probe B in Trouble Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KRPpi2.0.Lv5.wdLou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: http://www.space.com/science/grav_probe_b_000310.html <><><><><><><><><><><> Einstein Experiment Faces Crucial Test This Summer posted: 01:23 pm EST 10 March 2000 Gravity Probe B (GPB), a half billion-dollar space mission designed to prove Einstein right or wrong, is struggling with technical difficulties, rising costs and a receding launch date. NASA managers say they will give the program until summer to shape up before considering whether or not to cancel the effort led by California's Stanford University. The mission idea dates to the late 1950s, and is elegantly simple in concept. A spacecraft hovering 400 miles (645 kilometers) above Earth will use sensitive gyroscopes to detect any movement which would signal that the mass of the planet warps Einsteinian space-time -- that is, the four dimensions which represent the universe in relativity theory. If there is such a movement, it could provide proof that Einstein's theory is correct. But more than 40 years later, that concept has proved complicated, costly and challenging to translate into hardware. A recent independent report done for NASA's Office of Space Science has reached the conclusion that GPB is not likely to meet its September 2001 launch date. It estimates that the program will need about $70 million more to work out technical glitches and warns that some management changes are needed to ensure it gets back on track. "This growth against a prior total program cost commitment of $540 million represents an increase of 13 percent," the report said. It was prepared by a panel chaired by retired aerospace engineer Parker Stafford at the request of Ed Weiler, NASA's space science associate administrator. The technical problems revolve around the gyroscopes and their housing in an insulated canister which is super-cooled. Last fall, a series of tests showed problems with the gyros and revealed that heat was building up in one section of that canister. The science package containing the gyros had to be removed from the canister -- a costly and time-consuming process. Managers at Stanford University say they now have the problems under control. "We're on the road to recovery," says Francis Everitt, GPB's principal investigator. Unlike most NASA projects, Stanford has had primary oversight of the effort, rather than the space agency itself. The Stafford report does conclude that the project "is in good shape from a technical standpoint," but it also warns that the root cause of the higher temperatures remains disturbingly unclear. In addition, panel members say that GPB needs "an on-site NASA project manager and chief engineer" and an experienced integration and test manager. Several critical tests are planned to start this summer when the science package containing the gyroscopes is re-inserted into the insulated canister. That hardware then must be integrated into the larger spacecraft. How quickly this can be done is unclear. Everitt maintains that he still has a good shot at meeting the September 2001 launch date, but the Stafford panel thinks there is a higher likelihood of additional delay. NASA officials familiar with the project's status predict that it will be April 2002 before the spacecraft gets off the ground on a Delta rocket. And every day adds costs. Everitt thinks the cost overruns will be less than the Stafford panel projects. He estimates that a September launch would only involve $40 million in additional costs, while an April date would boost that to $60 million or more. NASA officials are keeping a wary eye on GPB, given its long history of delays (launch was once slated for 1999), its technical obstacles and the creeping cost. To find the $70 million which is probably necessary to keep the program on track, Weiler says he has three options: to slip launch of the Europa Orbiter 26 months, and eliminate plans for new missions; to delay a new set of missions in the series of mid-sized spacecraft called Midex or to ask NASA managers to consider canceling the project. The upcoming tests will be critical for the program's fate. At a recent meeting of NASA's space science advisory panel, Weiler said he supports "giving Stanford a chance" to fix the technical problems in the coming months. "We've sunk $450 million into this program in the past 35 to 40 years," he added. "There's a certain driving force" keeping it afloat. "If they make the milestones, we'll find the money." Others are not so charitable. GPB has long aroused the ire of other researchers, in part because of its cost and in part because it is a physics project funded by an agency that primarily focuses on planetary exploration or astrophysics and astronomy. Previous administrations repeatedly tried to cancel the probe, but it has strong supporters in Congress, who just as often put funding back in to continue the effort. Several members of the NASA advisory panel grumbled at news of the delays and added costs -- and at Weiler's decision not to make a decision, which some say sends a poor signal to contractors. "There is an issue of credibility here," warned David Black, a planetary scientist at the Lunar and Planetary Institute in Houston. "Continued waffling is hurting your credibility." He added that "it's almost reaching the level of laughability (sic)." But despite the giggle factor, NASA and Stanford officials say GPB still stands a good chance of testing Einstein's famous theory. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 12:57:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01808; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:48:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:48:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000310154727.00790ca0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:47:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "INTERNET:vortex-l@eskimo.com" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Special report on Atlanta highway carnage In-Reply-To: <200003101519_MC2-9CA0-B0B0 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Jguhe3.0.3S.D-Lou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Soo wrote: >BTW, when you write "curve", do you mean "kerb"? Ay-ya. Only *we* spell it "curb." >I hear that Bill Clinton is having the same problem with voice interface >software........it just can't cope with those "southern boy" accents. I can't believe he has time to fool with this stuff. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 13:03:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01862; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:48:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:48:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000310154531.0079dd90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:45:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills changes strategy? In-Reply-To: <004a01bf8ac6$1a11e000$01637dc7 computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20000310141918.0079a6b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ds1nU.0.yS.L-Lou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: >It makes a lot of sense to help others to replicate before the forecasted >IPO. Ah, yes. That would improve their credibility, and increase the cost of shares. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 13:31:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09577; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:04:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:04:53 -0800 Message-ID: <38C96216.B313F2D5 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 22:59:02 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frederick Sparber CC: vortex , "Robert G. Flower" Subject: The periodic table of elementary particles Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"brea_.0.ZL2.qDMou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I think you may find it useful. Note that mass of proton and neutron are calculated very close to observed values according to the theory. Regards, hamdi ucar http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0003023 physics/0003023 From: "D.Y. Chung" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:01:58 GMT (146kb) The periodic table of elementary particles Authors: Ding-Yu Chung From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 14:18:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19480; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:10:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:10:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:09:35 -0500 From: "Susan J. Seddon" Subject: Re: Special report on Atlanta highway carnage Sender: "Susan J. Seddon" To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <200003101709_MC2-9C9B-96B0 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA19456 Resent-Message-ID: <"catns3.0.Im4.dBNou" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, < [Clinton] I can't believe he has time to fool with this stuff.> He's probably just taking time out from interfacing with interns. - Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 16:56:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19346; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:42:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:42:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330DB mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Mills suing detractors? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:44:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"qFL221.0.7k4.yPPou" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From Robert Park's APS What's New: Ten years ago, Pons' lawyer wrote to physicist Michael Salamon demanding that he retract a paper contradicting cold fusion claims or face legal action (WN 20 April 90). Then APS President Eugen Merzbacher denounced the threat in the Wall Street Journal. Recently, a patent was issued for a method of releasing energy by getting hydrogen into a "state below the ground state," creating teensy little hydrogen atoms called "hydrinos" (WN 18 Feb 00). The inventor, Randy Mills, first made this claim nine years ago (WN 26 Apr 91). Physicists were unimpressed. Nevertheless, Mills' company, BlackLight Power, has now raised more than $25M from investors, and is reported to be preparing an IPO. This week, prominent physicists who have scoffed at Mills' hydrino claim, including Nobel laureates, got letters from Mills' lawyers demanding that they "stop engaging in further defamatory and disparaging activities concerning BlackLight and Dr. Mills." Yikes! They issue a patent and suddenly no one can disparage them anymore? This seems like a step backwards in BLP's newfound desire to persuade the scientific community. Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 20:11:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00628; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:59:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:59:54 -0800 Message-ID: <38C9C595.C83D8B33 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:03:33 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Mar 10, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uM7Ol.0.j9.wISou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Mar 10, 2000 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:16:53 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 10 Mar 00 Washington, DC 1. SPY HYSTERIA: APS PRESIDENT PROTESTS TREATMENT OF WEN HO LEE. While making no judgement about guilt or innocence, a letter to Attorney General Janet Reno from Jim Langer strongly objected to the harsh conditions of Lee's incarceration. He is confined to his cell 23 hours a day. Outside the cell, including the single weekly visit he is allowed with his family, his wrists and ankles are shackled. Langer also notes that the widespread view that Lee is being treated unjustly is making it difficult to attract and retain the very best scientists at the weapons labs. The AAAS Committee on Scientific Freedom and Responsibility also wrote to Reno inquiring into the reasons for this "extraordinary" treatment. The FBI cites conflicting polygraph test results to justify its actions. A leading scientific authority on the detection of deception, William Iacono of the Univ. of Minnesota will set the record straight at the APS March Meeting, Session G8.FPS: Voodoo Science. Using pseudoscience to justify mistreatment of a scientist seems particularly cruel and unusual. 2. SCIENTIFIC FREEDOM: THREATS FROM SOUTH OF THE SOUTH POLE. Ten years ago, Pons' lawyer wrote to physicist Michael Salamon demanding that he retract a paper contradicting cold fusion claims or face legal action (WN 25 May 90). Then APS President Eugen Merzbacher denounced the threat in the Wall Street Journal. Recently, a patent was issued for a method of releasing energy by getting hydrogen into a "state below the ground state," creating teensy little hydrogen atoms called "hydrinos" (WN 18 Feb 00). The inventor, Randy Mills, first made this claim nine years ago (WN 26 Apr 91). Physicists were unimpressed. Nevertheless, Mills' company, BlackLight Power, has now raised more than $25M from investors, and is reported to be preparing an IPO. This week, prominent physicists who have scoffed at Mills' hydrino claim, including Nobel laureates, got letters from Mills' lawyers demanding that they "stop engaging in further defamatory and disparaging activities concerning BlackLight and Dr. Mills." 3. MISSILE DEFENSE: COCHRAN CALLS FOR IMMEDIATE NMD DEPLOYMENT. The National Press Club "Morning Newsmaker" on Wednesday, Senator Thad Cochran (R-MS), author of the 1999 NMD Act (WN 29 Jan 99), explained that "all the elements have been proven." The same was said, of course, about the elements of the Maginot Line -- never mind that the parts don't work together (WN 14 Jan 00; 21 Jan 00). Cochran got a lock on the 2000 Golden Spinning Wheel Award with: "Opponents of NMD are stuck in the Cold War." 4. EVOLUTION: PUBLIC DOESN'T WANT CREATIONISM IN SCIENCE CLASS. According to a new Yankelovich poll, commissioned by People for the American Way, an overwhelming 83% of Americans think Darwin's theory of evolution, not creationism, belongs in science class. That means most people don't live in Kansas (WN 13 Aug 99). THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 21:18:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA00301; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:17:31 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <8.23a8049.25fb30c7 aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:16:55 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"iKHyn1.0.t_7.hRTou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Here are the lab notes from today's run number 031000. I have charted this run and uploaded the chart to my website on the GRAPHS page. T = TIME IN SECONDS Tc = TUBE TEMPERATURE CELSIUS +-0.1C Tf = TUBE H2 FILL PRESSURE IN TORR +-0.01 TORR Tw = INPUT POWER IN WATTS +-0.01 WATT Tr = ROOM TEMPERATURE +-1.0C ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ T Tc Tf Tw Tr ----------------------------------------------- 0 19.5 30 0 19 close off pump and tube, fill 5 146.1 29.8 20 19 manifold w/Ar to 1 atm. 10 218.1 29.62 20 19 12 245.9 29.65 20 19 15 262.8 30.17 20 19 16 280.4 30.08 20 19 Tc rising at 0.1C/sec. 20 293.1 30.2 20 19 Tc rise 20% slower now 25 311.1 30.17 20.2 19 30 320.5 30.36 20.31 19 40 329.2 30.48 20.44 19 45 331.3 30.52 20.51 19 50 332.1 30.53 20.5 19 55 332.3 30.57 20.51 19 60 332.8 30.57 20.53 19 reset power controller to 20 watts 65 329.5 30.56 20 19 70 328.4 30.58 20 19 75 326.9 30.57 20 19 80 326.2 30.6 20.01 19 85 326.2 30.64 20 19 90 326.4 30.67 20 19 95 326.3 30.68 20 19 100 325.7 30.72 20 19 105 325.7 30.74 20 19 110 325.4 30.78 20.1 19 115 325.6 30.81 20.1 19 120 325.7 30.85 20.1 19 125 326.3 30.88 20.1 19 130 327.1 30.88 20.2 19 135 328.4 30.95 20.1 19 140 327.9 30.94 20 19 145 327.5 30.94 20 19 150 327.6 30.95 20 19 end of run 031000 This was H2 calibration run getting stabilized temperature data for 30 torr at 20 watts. I'm calling it 327.6C or Tc - Tr = 308.6 Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 21:46:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA09377; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:44:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:44:05 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <11.1bcf9cf.25fb36ff aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:43:27 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"CwC7e1.0.RI2.aqTou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/10/00 9:19:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, VCockeram aol.com writes: > I have charted this run and uploaded the chart to my > website on the GRAPHS page. > > T = TIME IN SECONDS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Should be: TIME IN MINUTES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Tc = TUBE TEMPERATURE CELSIUS +-0.1C > Tf = TUBE H2 FILL PRESSURE IN TORR +-0.01 TORR > Tw = INPUT POWER IN WATTS +-0.01 WATT > Tr = ROOM TEMPERATURE +-1.0C Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 01:08:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA14358; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 01:01:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 01:01:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 01:01:01 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Special report on Atlanta highway carnage In-Reply-To: <200003101519_MC2-9CA0-B0B0 compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eP_mO2.0.GW3.HjWou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Susan J. Seddon wrote: > Jed, > > It's not quite as insane on the roads over here, although we do have our > moments. The latest spate of accidents involving pedestrians appears to > be caused by motorists "rat-running" down suburban streets to avoid > traffic-calming measures on main roads! Try this Java applet. Set the reaction time really long, and watch chain-collisions arise spontaneously. Which driver is at fault? traffic-wave simulation: http://www.orbicon.demon.co.uk/traffic/traffic.html also traffic experiments for bored commuters http://www.amasci.com/amateur/traffic.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 07:46:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01336; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:34:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:34:36 -0800 Message-ID: <002701bf8b6f$15678600$90627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: Subject: Re: Special report on Atlanta highway carnage Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:32:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gh9gy1.0.oK.BUcou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given that the reaction time is the critical parameter and the accidents are like a wave cresting phenomenon, no-fault insurance makes a lot of sense by this model. It also strongly supports the implementation on high speed roadway automation that reduces reaction times to microseconds. Such systems would be cost effective in the reduced numbers of accidents, reduced travel times, reduced fuel costs, and reduced requirement for bigger highways, IMO. Eventually, elimination of many or most traffic lights could occur. The real trick is keeping such an effort from becoming another government boondoggle. I wonder how a system that alarmed or even automatically decreased throttle and/or implemented braking based on proximity to vehicle in front and speed and rate of approach would fare. Would people grow complacent and just keep the accelerator on the floor, expecting the safety net to save them every time? One of the biggest causes of accidents is driver boredom, and a system like that might make it worse. FAA has been supposedly developing ways to stagger arrival traffic by adjusting plane velocity enroute. Last I checked, there was nothing systematic. This problem is much simpler than for cars because of fewer 'vehicles', no traffic lights and arbitrary separation and speed control, but their automation development is measured on a geologic time scale (catastrophe model). They do have proximity warning, but it is poorly implemented and causes more problems than it solves (it is often ignored, I understand). It uses transponder interrogation to determine distance to nearby planes, but in crowded airspaces, there is so much plane-to-plane interrogation that the transponders get swamped and sometimes do not reply properly to the radar interrogation, and so can track poorly or even disappear off the screen, particularly with pre-Mode-S systems. Maybe things have improved significantly since I quit, but I doubt it. Ed Wall ----- Original Message ----- From: William Beaty To: Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 4:01 AM Subject: Re: Special report on Atlanta highway carnage > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Susan J. Seddon wrote: > > > Jed, > > > > It's not quite as insane on the roads over here, although we do have our > > moments. The latest spate of accidents involving pedestrians appears to > > be caused by motorists "rat-running" down suburban streets to avoid > > traffic-calming measures on main roads! > > Try this Java applet. Set the reaction time really long, and watch > chain-collisions arise spontaneously. Which driver is at fault? > > traffic-wave simulation: > http://www.orbicon.demon.co.uk/traffic/traffic.html > > also > > traffic experiments for bored commuters > http://www.amasci.com/amateur/traffic.html > > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 09:41:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06789; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:40:06 -0800 From: BriggsRO aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:39:28 EST Subject: Re: BLP: project underway To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 68 Resent-Message-ID: <"XOPp31.0.vf1.sJeou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/10/00 7:26:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: << Most definitely! I've had more email messages FROM Randall Mills in the past three days than in the previous three years! This morning he informed me, in response to my questions about the electrolytic experiment, that he was going have Bill Good help me set us a gas cell experiment instead...because the gas cell experiments are more impressive! >> Wow! Talk about a complete 180!! This is terriffic news. If Scott can't confirm Mills' results with the help of Good, we will know the truth. If he can, I'll buy all of the BLP stock I can get my hands on. Bob Briggs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 11:29:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01470; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:25:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:25:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000311142213.0079f810 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:22:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills suing detractors? In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330DB mailserver.omnikron .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4eSHG2.0.tM.Jsfou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florek, Steven wrote: >Yikes! They issue a patent and suddenly no one can disparage them anymore? >This seems like a step backwards in BLP's newfound desire to persuade the >scientific community. A step backwards? I would call falling off a cliff. It is the stupidest thing BLP could do. Even if by some miracle they won a lawsuit, it would still alienate scientists and investors. They cannot win though. The scientists will roll out their creditials and point to the textbooks, and it will be over a few hours. BLP will be a laughingstock. And for no reason! It is idiotic and tragic. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 12:05:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13354; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:03:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:03:41 -0800 Message-ID: <38CAA632.24AC0F05 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 09:01:54 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Voltage without pressure Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ckii83.0.aG3.SQgou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I often hear that voltage is pressure, but I've always felt this description as lacking. Maybe it is also the speed of the electrons in the wire? Anyway I have a riddle. If you have an AL pie plate or other conductive metal with a spring attached compressed by a magnet. If the magnet is released it will fly away from the plate inducing eddy currents. There is current but no "conventional" voltage. This is a problem, there is energy, it induced current which created heat. It slowed the magnet. If we tried to recapture the energy of the magnet with another spring we would find less energy than if there had been no plate. So if there is no voltage then how is there energy? Energy is current x voltage. If voltage is zero then so is energy. Even after the magnet come to rest with respect to the plate from compressing the spring the current in the plate still continues for a short time. So if there is still voltage, Just a different type then where is it? what is it? John Berry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 12:31:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20251; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:22:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:22:27 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf8b97$39064ce0$be4dfea9 hal-9000> Reply-To: "dwenbert" From: "dwenbert" To: Subject: Mills vs. the Dynamos (was Mills Suing Detractors) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:20:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9WBvI1.0.Jy4.2igou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I havent' found the earlier post that talks about Mills suing anybody. Can someone point me to a URL that gives real information about that, rather than gossip? Since Mill's discovery and invention definately WORK, any argument WILL "be over in a few hours", and BLP will win it hands down. The textbooks are burning already; so many flaws, so little time.... If only the zeropoint stuff were as conclusive and replicable as the Blacklight Power process. Someone needs to survey all of the self-inducing dynamo crap out there and synthesize a common dynamical model of the order of Mill's work on hydrogen (or Santilli's, for that matter). Why are these things still so disparate, diffuse, and unfocussed? Just because Newman (Gray, Color, Hendershot, Adams....ad nauseum....) can't get their thoughts together in a formal manner understood by other physicists and electrical engineers, doesn't mean that some of the talent on this list couldn't do the repackaging for them. Between Rothwell, Mallove, Fox, Little, Naudin, Hartman, and the others, there is plenty enough formal engineering talent here to come up with THE conclusive theoretical discourse on zeropoint electrodynamic systems and to synthesize the functional, operate constructs into a reliable recipe......separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Do it, and I can get such a book published, by a reputable, major publisher of science and engineering text and reference books. That will bring all this 'fringe science' in from the cold, once and for all. What will it take, gentlemen, airfare to put you all in a room together? Let me know what it would take, and we'll fix it. All of this squabbling and backbiting is getting us nowhere; gas will be at $2 a gallon this summer..... >>Yikes! They issue a patent and suddenly no one can disparage them anymore? >>This seems like a step backwards in BLP's newfound desire to persuade the >>scientific community. >A step backwards? I would call falling off a cliff. It is the stupidest >thing BLP could do. Even if by some miracle they won a lawsuit, it would >still alienate scientists and investors. They cannot win though. The >scientists will roll out their creditials and point to the textbooks, and >it will be over a few hours. BLP will be a laughingstock. And for no >reason! It is idiotic and tragic. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 12:34:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24144; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:33:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:33:12 -0800 Message-ID: <004401bf8b98$cc324680$90627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:30:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hx3lO.0.5v5.7sgou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While I certainly respect Scott Little's ability and resources to do experimentation, why would his success cause such an enthusiastic acceptance of BlackLight? What was wrong with Thermacore or Idaho National Engineering Laboratory's work? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Re: BLP: project underway > In a message dated 3/10/00 7:26:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, > little earthtech.org writes: > > << Most definitely! I've had more email messages FROM Randall Mills in the > past three days than in the previous three years! This morning he informed > me, in response to my questions about the electrolytic experiment, that he > was going have Bill Good help me set us a gas cell experiment > instead...because the gas cell experiments are more impressive! >> > > Wow! Talk about a complete 180!! This is terriffic news. > > If Scott can't confirm Mills' results with the help of Good, we will know the > truth. If he can, I'll buy all of the BLP stock I can get my hands on. > > Bob Briggs NO PRESSURE, SCOTT!! (but do you plan to purchase stock if you get favorable results?) Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 13:14:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01896; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:08:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:08:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:08:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Undisclosed recipients: ; Subject: view websites via email Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7utMx3.0.8T.9Nhou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Do you or any colleagues have free email accounts but no access to a WWW browser? See below for some options ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L Web-to-Email: How to use email to surf the Web If you have email, but are unable to surf the Web, Web-to-Email servers allow you to retrieve information from any public Web site, anywhere in the world. Why Web-to-Email? While the amount of information on the World Wide Web has grown exponentially in the last few years, there is still a large community of Internet users who only have access to email. They cannot surf the Web -- the world's biggest multi-media information resource. Many of these users live in isolated areas or developing countries, and rely on the Internet for communication, access to essential medical, scientific, human rights and business information, and world news. How does it work? Web-to-Email servers are computers which fetch documents from the Web, and send them to the user as email messages, either in plain text or html. To use the system, simply send an email message addressed to one of the Web-to-Email servers listed below. Leave the subject line blank. In the body of the email message, type the URL (a Web address beginning with http://) of the Web page you want to read. In the following example, the message is addressed to www4mail web.bellanet.org, a Web-to-Email server operated by Bellanet. The page requested, http://www.bellanet.org, is Bellanet's home page. Your email message should look like this: |--------------------------------| | TO: www4mail web.bellanet.org | | CC: | | BCC: | | SUBJECT: | |________________________________| |GET http://www.bellanet.org | | | | | | | | | | | |--------------------------------| Replace http://www.bellanet.org with the URL of the web page you wish to read. List of Web-to-Email servers: Different server types (www4mail, Getweb, Agora) each have their own set of commands for retrieving documents, but they all perform more or less the same tasks. The table below shows the email address of the Web-to-Email server, and the appropriate command to use to retrieve a Web page. ----------------------------------------------------- WEB-TO-EMAIL LIST OF SERVERS 10-03-00 For more detailed instructions, send an email message to the server of your choice with only the word HELP in the body of the message (leave the subject line blank). The servers listed below are selected from G.E. Boyd's, "List of operational and defunct servers for e-mail only users" http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1236/servers.html For best results, use the server closest to you. ----------------------------------------------------- WWW4MAIL and WWW3MAIL SERVERS Command: GET http://... (omit the GET command to receive the page as an html attachment) ----------------------------------------------------- www4mail web.bellanet.org (Canada) www4mail unganisha.idrc.ca (Canada) www4mail wm.ictp.trieste.it (Italy) www4mail ftp.uni-stuttgart.de (Germany) wwwmail bnl.gov http:// only ----------------------------------------------------- GETWEB SERVERS Command: GET http://... ----------------------------------------------------- getweb usa.healthnet.org (free to medical personnel) getweb emailfetch.com DOWN SINCE 22MAR99! ----------------------------------------------------- AGORA SERVERS Command: SEND http://... ----------------------------------------------------- agora dna.affrc.go.jp (Japan) agora kamakura.mss.co.jp (Japan) agora capri.mi.mss.co.jp (Japan) agora uit.no (Norwegian users only) agora mx.nsu.nsk.su (Russian users only) ----------------------------------------------------- WEBMAIL SERVERS Command: GO http://... ----------------------------------------------------- webmail www.ucc.ie ---------------------------END----------------------- Important: We have provided basic instructions on how to retrieve a single page of information from the web. Most of the servers listed above can process more complex queries such as on-line searches, requests for multiple documents, and requests directed at FTP sites, Gopher sites, etc. Some servers also allow you to specify an upper limit to the size of the files retrieved (for those who pay by the kilobyte for their Internet access). Others, such as Bellanet's www4mail server, are able to send the page back as an HTML attachment, which is designed to be read in a Web browser such as Lynx, Netscape, or Microsoft Internet Explorer. We highly recommend that you consult the HELP file of the server of your choice. Getweb servers can handle web pages which contain fill-in forms. Most of these servers are operated as a public service, by volunteers. There is no charge for the service. Please restrict your searches to essential information. Net Services in the UK maintains statistics on the efficiency of different Web-to-Email servers. http://www.cix.co.uk/~net-services/mrcool/stats.htm Detailed usage statistics for Bellanet's Web-to-Email server are available at http://web.bellanet.org/www4mail. This Web-to-Email information page is maintained by Katherine Morrow, Communications Officer, Bellanet. Contact me at kmorrow bellanet.org. For more information: Information on how to use Bellanet's www4mail server can be found at http://www.ictp.trieste.it/~www4mail/ Accessing The Internet By E-mail: Guide to Offline Internet Access. 9th Edition - February 2000 is an authoritative guide to Web-to-Email and other similar services. It was originally written by Bob Rankin, and is now maintained by Gerald E. Boyd. Gerald Boyd's web site describes "How to Do Just About Anything By E-mail." See http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1236/ Advanced help is available from the ACCMAIL discussion group, archived at: http://listserv.aol.com/archives/accmail.html _____________________________________________________________________ Accessing the Internet by Email FAQ _________________________________________________________________ +--------------------------------------------------+ | Accessing The Internet By Email | | Guide to Offline Internet Access | | Version 9.0 - February 21, 2000 | +--------------------------------------------------+ The Rules of The Game --------------------- This document is meant to be both tutorial and practical, so there are lots of actual commands and internet addresses listed herein. You'll notice that when these are included in the text they are indented by several spaces for clarity. Don't include the leading spaces when you try these commands on your own! You'll also see things like "" or "" appearing in this document. Think of these as place holders or variables which must be replaced with an appropriate value. Do NOT include the quotes or brackets in your value unless specifically directed to do so. Most email servers understand only a small set of commands and are not very forgiving if you deviate from what they expect. So include ONLY the specified commands in the Subject or body of your note, leaving off any extraneous lines such as your signature, etc. Unless otherwise specified, you can leave the Subject and/or body of the note empty. If your mail software insists on a Subject or body, just type "XYZZY" or something equally non-sensical. You should also ensure that you have one blank line between the note headers and the body of your note. And do pay attention to upper/lower case in directory and file names when using email servers. It's almost always important. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* SPECIAL NOTE: The email servers listed in this guide are for the most part operated by kind-hearted volunteers at companies or universities. If you abuse (or over-use) the servers, there's a very good chance they will be shut down permanently. This actually happened to several of the email servers recently, so treat them with respect. If you have direct Internet access, let others who are less fortunate use the email servers. Try to limit your data transfers to one megabyte per day. Don't swamp the servers with many requests at a time. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* USENET BY EMAIL ---------------- Usenet is a collection of over 52000 discussion groups on every topic imaginable. In order to get a proper start and avoid embarrasing yourself needlessly, you must read the Usenet new users intro document, which can be obtained by sending email to: mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and include this line in the BODY of the note: send usenet/news.answers/news-newusers-intro To get a listing of Usenet newsgroups, add these commands to your note: send usenet/news.answers/active-newsgroups/part1 (also get part2 & part3) send usenet/news.answers/alt-hierarchies/part1 (also get part2 & part3) To get the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) file(s) for a given newsgroup, try a command like this: index usenet/ (Substitute dots for dashes if they appear in the newsgroup name.) If any FAQ files are available, they will be listed in the returned info, and you can request them with a command like: send usenet// Reading Usenet Newsgroups ------------------------- The gophermail service discussed earlier in this guide that was used to to read and contribute to Usenet newsgroups by email is DEFUNCT as of January 2000. NOTE: You can also get Usenet postings from several webmail servers listed in the WORLD-WIDE WEB BY EMAIL section later in this document. There are four approaches: 1) Use a webmail server to access a gopher site which carries Usenet. NONE CURRENTLY KNOWN... 2) Look for an Agora server with a "Y" in the "Usenet Access" column and send a command like this in the message body: send news: 3) Use a webmail server to retrieve specified web pages to search at Deja.com which archives Usenet groups daily. Find Forum -- http://w.deja.com/home_if.shtml Browse Group -- http://w.deja.com/home_bg.shtml Power Browse Group -- http://w.deja.com/home_ps.shtml 4) Use the Sonador Usenet by email server. To get the help file send blank email to autonews_info sonador.com. NOTE: Russian users can use the Relcom Usenet News mailserver. Send the word "help" in the body of a message to newsserv litech.net Note: See the "WWW By Email" section below for a list of "getweb" "agora" and "www4mail" servers. With a little luck, you'll get a list of recent postings to the newsgroup, and then you can retrieve the individual postings by replying to the message from the Agora server. Make sure not to change the subject line of the reply message, and just put the number of the posting you want in the message BODY. Posting In Usenet Newsgroups ---------------------------- If you decide to make a post of your own, here are two methods to try: METHOD 1: Mail the text of your post to: group.name newsgw.rrze.uni-erlangen.de mail2news-YYYYMMDD-group.name anon.lcs.mit.edu group.name berlioz.crs4.it group.name comlab.ox.ac.uk group.name pubnews.demon.co.uk outnews+netnews.group.name andrew.cmu.edu no.group.name news.uninett.no So to post to news.newusers.questions, you might send your message to: news.newusers.questions newsgw.rrze.uni-erlangen.de Be sure to include an appropriate Subject: line, and include your real name and email address at the close of your note. Substitute today's date instead of YYMMDD and the newsgroup name instead of "group.name" in the address. For more information, send to mail2news anon.lcs.mit.edu with Subject: help METHOD 2: Mail the text of your anonymous post to: mail2news anon.lcs.mit.edu - Subject: help mail2news news.demon.co.uk - mail2news replay.com - see remailer@replay.com Note on Usenet Posting ---------------------- Use a webmail server to fetch Don Kitchen's helpful document at "http://www.sabotage.org/~don/mail2news.html" (See "World-Wide Web By Email" below for help with this). It contains tips on finding out if a mail server supports your newsgroup, keeping your address away from spammers, and an updated list of mail-to-news servers. Searching For Usenet Newsgroups ------------------------------- Don't know the name of the newsgroup? To search for Usenet groups about "pets", for example, send email to an Agora or www4mail server (see WWW section) with this line in the message BODY: send http://alabanza.com/kabacoff/Inter-Links/cgi/news.cgi?pets WORLD-WIDE WEB (WWW) BY EMAIL ----------------------------- The World-Wide Web is the premier Internet navigational tool - a hypertext and multimedia system that lets you hop around the Net, read documents, and access images & sounds linked to a source. Have you ever heard someone say, "Wow, check out the cool stuff at http://www.somewhere.com/blah.html" and wondered what in the world they were talking about? Now you can retrieve WWW documents by email using an Agora server. All you need to know is the Uniform Resource Locator (or URL, that long ugly string starting with "http:", "gopher:", or "ftp:") which defines the address of the document, and you can retrieve it by sending email to one of: Agora Server Address Location Usenet Access? --------------------------- -------------------- -------------- agora dna.affrc.go.jp (Japan) Y agora kamakura.mss.co.jp (Japan) Y agora www.eng.dmu.ac.uk (DMU.UK users ONLY) agora uit.no (Norwegian users ONLY) agora mx.nsu.nsk.su (NSU.RU users ONLY) In the body of your note include one of these lines, replacing "" with the actual URL specification. send rsend (to override your return address) This will send you back the document you requested, with a list of all the documents referenced within, so that you may make further requests. To try WWW by email send the following commands to an Agora server: help send http://www.w3.org In a few minutes you should receive the Agora help file and the "W3C WWW Welcome Consortium Page" which will include references to other Web documents you'll want to explore. Please read the Agora help file, as it contains answers to many commonly asked questions! THERE ARE SOME OTHER webmail servers listed below, which run software other than Agora. They work pretty much the same, but it's a good idea to request the help file for the server you decide to use. Note: The GetWeb servers below can handle web pages which contain fill-in forms. Other webmail servers do not provide this ability. Address Syntax Comments ----------------------- ---------- ---------------------------- getweb emailfetch.com GET intermittent since Mar99 getweb usa.healthnet.org GET webmail www.ucc.ie GO wwwfmail_pro wwwfetch.com Fee-based Use 'Subject: info' for help Note: The webmail servers are sometimes unavailable for days (or weeks) at a time without explanation. If you get an error or no reply, please try another address or retry in a day or so. THE NEW WWW4MAIL servers (combine functions of agora, getweb, and new browser email integration): Address Comments ----------------------------- ------------------------------ www4mail ftp.uni-stuttgart.de send help in body of a message www4mail unganisha.idrc.ca send help in body of a message www4mail web.bellanet.org send help in body of a message www4mail wm.ictp.trieste.it send help in body of a message If you want an up-to-date listing, then look at: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1236/servers.html WWW SEARCH BY EMAIL ------------------- There's a lot of great stuff out on the Web, but how do you find it? Well, just like Archie and Veronica help you search FTP and gopher sites, there are several search engines that have been developed to search for information on the Web. But until now, you had to have direct Internet access to use them. After a bit of research, I have found that it is possible to use several WWW search mechanisms by email. Here are some sample queries that you can use to search via Lycos and WebCrawler. Any of these lines can be sent to an Agora server (see above) to perform a search. If you're not interested in frogs, then by all means feel free to use your own keywords. For Lycos searches you must separate words with a "+" sign. All searches are exact. http://www.lycos.com/srch/?lpv=1&loc=searchhp&query=frog+dissection For WebCrawler searches you must separate words with a "+" sign. All searches are exact. http://www.webcrawler.com/cgi-bin/WebQuery?searchText=frog+dissection Another way to access search engines is to send a message to one of the GETWEB servers (see list above) with a line like this in the message body: SEARCH Replace "engine" with YAHOO, ALTAVISTA, or INFOSEEK, and use your own search words. Here's an example: SEARCH YAHOO consumer protection MAILING LISTS ------------- There are literally thousands of discussion groups that stay in touch using email based systems known as "mailing lists". People interested in a topic "subscribe" to a "list" and then send and receive postings by email. For information concerning new lists, send email to: LISTSERV HYPATIA.CS.WISC.EDU In the body of your note include only this command: INFO NEW-LIST Finding a Mailing List ---------------------- To find out about mailing lists that are relevant to your interests, send email to an webmail server and retrieve this web page: http://www.liszt.com/ New in These Parts? ------------------- If you're new to the Internet, I suggest you subscribe to the HELP-NET list where you're likely to find answers to your questions. Send the command: SUBSCRIBE HELP-NET in the BODY of a note to LISTSERV CRCVMS.UNL.EDU, then email your questions to the list address: HELP-NET CRCVMS.UNL.EDU FINGER BY EMAIL --------------- "Finger" is a utility that returns information about another user. Usually it's just boring stuff like last logon, etc., but sometimes people put fun or useful information in their finger replies. To try out finger, send this line (in the message BODY) to a webmail server: send http://www.mit.edu:8001/finger? Use one of the email addresses below instead of ... nasanews space.mit.edu coke@cs.cmu.edu quake gldfs.cr.usgs.gov copi@oddjob.uchicago.edu "DIRECTORY ASSISTANCE" BY EMAIL -------------------------------- There is an email address lookup database at MIT which keeps tabs on everyone who has posted a message on Usenet. Send email to mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and enter only this line in the BODY of the note: send usenet-addresses/ Specify as much information as you can about the person (lastname, firstname, userid, site, etc.) to limit the amount of information that is returned to you. Here's a sample query to find the address of someone you think may be at Harvard University: send usenet-addresses/Jane Doe Harvard WHOIS BY EMAIL -------------- WHOIS is another tool that can be used to Search for domain name; NIC handle; host IP or lastname, firstname. The default action for Whois, unless directed otherwise with a keyword (e.g. "domain root"), is to do a very broad search, looking for matches in many fields: handle, name, or hostname and finding all record types. Let's say we want to find someone named Gerald Boyd (a noted email personality). Our Whois query will be addressed to a webmail server and will contain only this one long line: http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois? STRING=name+boyd%2C+gerald&STRING=Search Whois then shows the results in one of two ways: as a full, detailed display for a single match (with possible subdisplay), or as one- or two-line summaries for multiple matches. If all goes well, you'll receive a list something like this (not me!): Boyd, Gerald GB8307 gerald PF1HELP.COM Performance Function One, Inc. 6504 GreyHawk Waye, Inc. 770-413-9456A 30087 Record last updated on 28-Jan-1999. Database last updated on 20-Feb-2000 12:44:21 EST. TELNET BY EMAIL --------------- Sorry, there is no way to access TELNET sites by email. A FEW NET-GOODIES ----------------- Here are some other interesting things you can do by email. (Some of them are accessible only by email!) * ANONYMOUS EMAIL An "anon server" provides a front for sending mail messages and posting to Usenet newsgroups anonymously, should the need ever arise. To get instructions send email to help nym.alias.net or remailer@anon.efga.org with a Subject: remailer-help * ASK DR. MATH Have a math question? Dr. Math answers questions from K-12 students and their teachers about Mathematics. Write to dr.math forum.swarthmore.edu * ASK-A-GEOLOGIST Send your earth-shattering questions to ask-a-geologist octopus.wr.usgs.gov and a US Geological Service scientist will try to help. * ASK-A-TECH Send your computer hardware or software support questions to helpdesk ask-a-tech.org and this non-profit organization will try to answer your question. * BIBLE SEARCH Search the King James version of the Bible. Examples below can be sent to an Agora server. Use "+" to specify multiple words; prefix proper names with "%23"; add "&PHRASE=ON" to find a phrase. send http://estragon.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/KJV?title=&word=angel+%23Mary send http://estragon.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/KJV?title=&word=fig+tree&PHRASE=ON * CANCER DATABASE To access the National Cancer Institute's database, send email to cancernet icicb.nci.nih.gov with "help" or "spanish" in the message body. * CHECK YOUR EMAIL CONNECTION The following are all autoresponder addresses that you can use to test if your email is working. You send a blank message to the address shown and in a few minutes an autoresponse is received. echo seattlelab.com test-courrier@sogi.com (in French) echo telcomplus.net test@alphanet.ch echo tu-berlin.de test@mega.bw internet gurus.com test@netsydney.com ping stamper.itconsult.co.uk * COUNTRY CODES The International Email accessibility FAQ is retrievable by email. Send email to mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and enter only this line in the BODY of the note: send usenet/news.answers/mail/country-codes Web site: http://www.nsrc.org/oclb Stumped by those 2-letter country codes in Internet addresses? Send email to address-codes newbie.net for an explanation. * CURRENCY CONVERSION You can get foreign exchange rates for the U.S. dollar and other currencies by sending this URL to an Agora or ww4mail server: send http://cnnfn.com/markets/currencies.html * DAILY BRIEF The Daily Brief is a free 4-6 page news summary sent out by email every weekday morning. Included in the Brief are summaries of major news events that have occurred during the 24 hours prior to distribution. To subscribe, send email to: subscribe-db incinc.net Web site: http://www.incinc.net/db/index.html * EMAIL TO SNAIL-MAIL Need to get a message to someone in Britain who doesn't have email? Send it to PaperMail! For full details on this fee-based service, send email to info papermail.win-uk.net * EMOTIONAL SUPPORT There's a suicide helpline accessible by email. Send your message to jo samaritans.org -- No syntax, they have humans! Also any mail to care netservs.com returns a listing of hundreds of emotional support resources on the Internet. * FINANCIAL AID FAQ A comprehensive guide to higher education financial aid. Send email to a web to mail server and retrieve this web page: send http://www.finaid.org/questions/faq.phtml * FINDING EMAIL ADDRESSES For a guide to finding someone's email addresses. Send email to mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and enter only this line in the BODY of the note: send usenet/news.answers/finding-addresses * FREE HOME PAGE BY EMAIL (For German residents only) InetWire offers free non-commercial homepages with up to 500KB of space. Make a zip file with index.htm being the home page, put a URL something like "http://inetw.com/home/myname" in the Subject line and then send your zip file as an ATTACHMENT to attach inetw.com. (If your email program doesn't support file attachments, you're out of luck.) * FTPMAIL/WEBMAIL SERVER STATUS Is your favorite FTPmail/Agora/GetWeb site overloaded or down? Find out by sending the "get file stats.txt" command to mailserv netservs.com * GENE SPLICING AND SEQUENCE ANALYSIS GRAIL is a suite of tools designed to provide analysis and putative annotation of DNA sequences both interactively and through the use of automated computation. To learn how to use this service, send email to grail ornl.gov with the word "help" in the body of the message. * GERMAN <-> ENGLISH TRANSLATION SERVICE The LEO translation service is now available by email, by sending to translate leo.org. The helpfile at http://www.leo.org/dict/mail.html can be retrieved via webmail. * INTERNET MOVIE DATABASE Get tons of info on movies, actors, and directors. Send email to movie imdb.com with HELP in the subject line. * INTERNET TIMELINE To learn the history of the Internet from 1950 to 1998, send blank email to timeline hobbes.mitre.org * THE INTERNET TOURBUS Take a virtual tour of the Internet - hop on The Internet TourBus! You'll receive a short mailing twice a week highlighting fun and interesting sites on the Internet. It's absolutely free, and you can join 80,000 others by sending SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Firstname Lastname in the BODY of a message to "LISTSERV LISTSERV.AOL.COM". * ISPs BY AREA CODE For a list of Internet Service Providers in your area code, send this line to an Agora server: http://thelist.iworld.com/areacode/???.html (where ???=your area code) * LANGUAGE TRANSLATION BY EMAIL Send an email as usual to a foreign language colleague in your native tongue. In the "Cc:" line, send a carbon copy of the message to the Universal T-mail Translator. The way you format the address will determine how the message is translated. Cc: (Original language)-(Final translation) T-Mail.com English (en or an), French (fr), German (ge or de), Italian (it), Spanish (sp or es), Portuguese (pt or po) So English to French translation would be en-fr t-mail.com * LEARN TO SPEAK GEEK Get BABEL, a glossary of computer abbreviations and acronyms. Use a webmail server to retrieve any of these files. http://www.geocities.com/ikind_babel/babel/babel.html [206K] http://www.geocities.com/ikind_babel/babel/babelhtm.zip [63K] http://www.geocities.com/ikind_babel/babel/babeltxt.zip [61K] * MEDICAL INFORMATION BY EMAIL Send a blank email message to hnet usa.healthnet.org to receive a FAQ which lists locations for medical information that can be accessed by email methods. * MICROSOFT KNOWLEDGE BASE The Microsoft knowledge base has articles that can be retrieved by email. For the index, send email to mshelp microsoft.com with Subject: index * MORE WORD FUN! The wordserver at wsmith wordsmith.org will serve up A.Word.A.Day, Dictionary by Mail, Thesaurus by Mail, Acronym by Mail and Anagram by Mail. Send blank email for the help file. Merriam-Webster dictionary offers the word of the day -- To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV LISTSERV.WEBSTER.M-W.COM with the command SUBSCRIBE MW-WOD [your name]. * MORTGAGE/LOAN CALCULATOR To calculate your monthly loan payment, send this line to an Agora server: http://www.interest.com/hugh/calc/simple.cgi?amt=100000&int=8.00&yrs=30 (Change the values for principle, interest and term as appropriate.) * PLAY GAMES BY EMAIL Yoyodyne specializes in online games. Send blank email to win yoyo.com You can also play games via the PBeM Server, for info, send email to pbmserv gamerz.net with Subject: help * SCOUT REPORT ...is a weekly featuring announcements of new and interesting resources on the Internet. To subscribe, send email to listserv cs.wisc.edu with "Subscribe scout-report Your Name" in the body. * SENDING A FAX BY EMAIL The TPC.INT "Remote Printing Experiment" is the grandfather of Internet faxing services. Send email to tpcfaq info.tpc.int with no subject and "help" in the body. For a list of country phone numbers served by this service, send email to tpccover info.tpc.int with no subject and nothing in the body. You can also get the FAX FAQ via electronic mail. Send email to mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and enter only this line in the BODY of the note: send usenet/news.answers/internet-services/fax-faq * SENDING MAIL TO VARIOUS NETWORKS For a guide to communicating with people on the various networks that make up the Internet, send email to mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and enter only this line in the BODY of the note: send usenet/news.answers/mail/inter-network-guide * SHAREWARE The MS-News mailing list is used to announce new files uploaded to Simtel.Net. To subscribe, send email to listserv simtel.net with this command in the body of your message: add ms-news * STATLIB A system for distributing statistical software, datasets, and information by electronic mail, FTP, and WWW. To get the index, send email to statlib lib.stat.cmu.edu with the one line message "send index". * STOCK MARKET QUOTE To get a stock market quote, send this line to an Agora server: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=xxxx where xxxx is the stock market symbol. * TRACK UPS PACKAGES You can track your UPS packages now thru email. Send an email to totaltrack ups.com and in the subject or the body place the complete tracking number. * THE USENET ORACLE A cooperative, anonymous and humorous exchange of questions and answers. Send email to oracle cs.indiana.edu for more information. * U.S. CONGRESS AND THE WHITE HOUSE You can contact the President (president whitehouse.gov) or Vice President (vice_president whitehouse.gov). * OTHER SOURCES OF US GOV'T INFO: Send email to mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and enter only these lines in the BODY of the note: send usenet/news.answers/us-govt-net-pointers/part1 send usenet/news.answers/us-govt-net-pointers/part2 * VIRTUAL PIZZA! Order an electronic pizza by email. Send email to "pizza ecst.csuchico.edu" with a subject of "pizza help" for details. * VIRUS PROTECTION SOFTWARE F-Prot, one of the top PC virus scanners can be requested by email. To get the current version (uuencoded) send email to f-prot-update complex.is with this message body: send-as: uue * WEBSTER DICTIONARY LOOKUP To retrieve the definition of a word, send this line to an Agora server: send http://c.gp.cs.cmu.edu:5103/prog/webster?whatever * FOR FURTHER READING For other things you can do with email, send blank email to email4u wireworm.com For more details on using web search engines by email use a web-to-mail server to get this file send ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gb/gboyd/wsintro.faq SOMETHING MISSING? ------------------ This file should be somewhere between 1300 and 1440 lines of text, and about 58KB in size. If the file you have is much smaller, or says something like "part 2 of 2" near the top, you're missing something. Most likely, that's because your mail system has file size quotas that prevented part 1 from reaching you. Here's the solution: To get the file in multiple chunks, send to mail-server rtfm.mit.edu and enter only these lines in the BODY of the note: size 25000 send usenet/news.answers/internet-services/access-via-email The mail server will break up the file into chunks of 25000 bytes and send them in separate messages. You can change "25000" to another number if it suits your needs. CONTACTING THE AUTHOR --------------------- I welcome your feedback on this guide and can be reached at the following addresses. Send corrections, ideas, suggestions and comments by email. I'll try to include any new services in future editions of this guide. Email : gboyd netcom.com Web : http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1236/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright (c) 1999-2000, Gerald E. Boyd gboyd netcom.com All rights reserved. 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Boyd Last Update March 09 2000 03:34 AM From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 14:57:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28680; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:52:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:52:03 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:03:47 -0500 Message-ID: <20000311230347406.AAA294 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3TL5y3.0.-_6.Huiou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >While I certainly respect Scott Little's ability and resources to do >experimentation, why would his success cause such an enthusiastic acceptance >of BlackLight? What was wrong with Thermacore or Idaho National Engineering >Laboratory's work? >NO PRESSURE, SCOTT!! (but do you plan to purchase stock if you get >favorable results?) And one would have to wonder why, if the tests were SO convincing, and BLP had $25 million bucks, that Thermacore or BLP just didn't start producing heaters to sell to people 10 years ago. It only takes about $4 or 5 million or so to put up a production facility. I think the only reason for this whole IPO nonsense is to raise funds for the inevitable slew of lawsuits, that BLP will never win anyway, unless they get a few more politicos on board. Obviously, large corps like EE&G, Lucent Technologies, and many others have similar hardware sitting on shelves that, for all practical purposes, are capable of doing what BLP has been claiming to do. BLP is just wanting the hundreds of millions that it will take to sue everybody that tries to put out a battery or heater that works like theirs. They just want a corner on the entire energy market, and the entire "hydrino" materials market. What a thoroughly disgusting waste. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 16:01:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13940; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:59:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:59:41 -0800 Message-ID: <002701bf8bbe$0cb07040$0a441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: , Subject: Re: Paint Can CF/OU Experiment Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:57:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"t3aeP3.0.gP3.itjou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An old paint can filled about 1/3 full of water saturated with NaOH (Drano) or the water from leached wood ashes (K2CO3 aqueous) with an electrode (Anode) [Lithium Hydroxide (LiOH) worked for me ~ 25 years ago, but I didn't believe it, the water never even got hot before the air/steam pressure went out of sight] spaced to create a discharge to the water ~ 1/2 inch at a few hundred volts with the can tied to ground (water cathode return) heated to expell the air, and the lid closed tight, should produce CF/OU results: The negatrinos taken up by a Proton should produce the 3 Fermi radius P* entity and give the following reactions: P* + Li-7 ---> 2 He-4 + negatrino + ~17.Mev P* + Na-23 ---> Mg-24 + negatrino + ~12.0 Mev P* + K-39 ---> Ca-40 + negatrino + ~ 8.50 Mev If the lid blows off in a few seconds, you're home free. :-) FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 17:16:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA00327; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:10:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:10:06 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Paint Can CF/OU Experiment Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:21:55 -0500 Message-ID: <20000312012155343.AAA276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ZNQAH2.0.15.jvkou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, Have you ever done a look on the numbers for the various natural materials that would create K2CO3, like maybe banana peels or potato peels? It seems to me that some commonly found materials would obviously have more K in them than others. Knuke >An old paint can filled about 1/3 full of water saturated with NaOH (Drano) >or the water from leached wood ashes (K2CO3 aqueous) with an electrode (Anode) >[Lithium Hydroxide (LiOH) worked for me ~ 25 years ago, but I didn't >believe it, the water never even got hot before the air/steam pressure went out of sight] >spaced to create a discharge to the water ~ 1/2 inch at a few hundred >volts with the can tied to ground (water cathode return) heated to expell the air, and the lid >closed tight, should produce CF/OU results: >The negatrinos taken up by a Proton should produce the 3 Fermi radius P* entity >and give the following reactions: > >P* + Li-7 ---> 2 He-4 + negatrino + ~17.Mev > >P* + Na-23 ---> Mg-24 + negatrino + ~12.0 Mev > >P* + K-39 ---> Ca-40 + negatrino + ~ 8.50 Mev > >If the lid blows off in a few seconds, you're home free. :-) > >FJS > > > Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 17:37:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07393; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:36:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:36:29 -0800 Message-ID: <003501bf8bcb$9459d380$0a441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000312012155343.AAA276 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Paint Can CF/OU Experiment Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:35:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"LyJJh1.0.Rp1.SIlou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Paint Can CF/OU Experiment Knuke wrote: > Hi Fred, > > Have you ever done a look on the numbers for the various natural materials > that would create K2CO3, like maybe banana peels or potato peels? It seems > to me that some commonly found materials would obviously have more K in them > than others. You can't beat wood ashes for high K2CO3 content. It only takes a few minutes to get oily feeling K2CO3 using a plastic bucket and straining the stuff through a T-shirt or such. If you add lime: K2CO3 + Ca(OH)2 ---> 2 KOH + CaCO3. That's what they use to make soap. But you want the CO3= ion to sequester the Positrinos. If you want to take your chances with Chlorine in the system you can use salt:(NaCl) instead of NaOH. Back then, I used NaCl for the Lithium experiment, thinking that it would be a "control", but the P* + Na-23 ----> Mg-24 + Negatrino + ~12.0 Mev shoots that down. Lots of Lithium (Li-6 and Li-7) in Beet and Tobacco ash. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > > >An old paint can filled about 1/3 full of water saturated with NaOH (Drano) > >or the water from leached wood ashes (K2CO3 aqueous) with an electrode (Anode) > >[Lithium Hydroxide (LiOH) worked for me ~ 25 years ago, but I didn't > >believe it, the water never even got hot before the air/steam pressure went > out of sight] > >spaced to create a discharge to the water ~ 1/2 inch at a few hundred > >volts with the can tied to ground (water cathode return) heated to expell > the air, and the lid > >closed tight, should produce CF/OU results: > >The negatrinos taken up by a Proton should produce the 3 Fermi radius P* > entity > >and give the following reactions: > > > >P* + Li-7 ---> 2 He-4 + negatrino + ~17.Mev > > > >P* + Na-23 ---> Mg-24 + negatrino + ~12.0 Mev > > > >P* + K-39 ---> Ca-40 + negatrino + ~ 8.50 Mev > > > >If the lid blows off in a few seconds, you're home free. :-) > > > >FJS > > > > > > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 18:04:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14591; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:03:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:03:23 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Paint Can CF/OU Experiment Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:15:13 -0500 Message-ID: <20000312021513953.AAA286 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"kSUEO3.0.nZ3.ghlou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >Lots of Lithium (Li-6 and Li-7) in Beet and Tobacco ash. :-) > >Regards, Frederick Thanks! That was my next question. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 20:46:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21747; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:41:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:41:09 -0800 Message-ID: <20000312044105.5191.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:41:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Voltage without pressure To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"v4BHe1.0.jJ5.a_nou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > I often hear that voltage is pressure, but I've always felt this > description as lacking. Voltage is a difference of potential energy between two places, for example, between two battery terminals. It is the integral or summed effect of the electric field along any path joining the two points. Voltage is the ability to do work. > Anyway I have a riddle. > > If you have an AL pie plate or other conductive metal with a spring > attached compressed by a magnet. > > If the magnet is released it will fly away from the plate inducing eddy > currents. > There is current but no "conventional" voltage. > This is a problem, there is energy, it induced current which created > heat. It slowed the magnet. If we tried to recapture the energy of the > magnet with another spring we would find less energy than if there had > been no plate. > > So if there is no voltage then how is there energy? Energy is current x > voltage. > If voltage is zero then so is energy. > Even after the magnet come to rest with respect to the plate from > compressing the spring the current in the plate still continues for a > short time. > > So if there is still voltage, Just a different type then where is it? > what is it? There is an induced electric field,induced by the changing magnetic field. The analog of "voltage" in this case is the integral (or summed effect) of the electric field around a closed path (or complete circuit or loop), and it is called "electromotive force" or EMF. It can also do work. People often loosely say "voltage" to indicate how much energy can be imparted by either way. If you tape a loop of wire to the pie plate and connect the wires to the input terminals of an oscilloscope, you will see the EMF as a display of 'scope terminal voltage. The concept of potential energy applies when the electric field and any magnetic field that might be present are both static (not changingIn this case, if a charge is carried around a complete closed path in a static situation, the net energy it receives from the electric field is zero. By the way, in electric circuit theory, this property is known as Kirchoff's "voltage law". If the magnetic flux is changing, however, the charge gains or loses energy if it is carried around a closed path, and the energy change is the EMF times the charge. This is the basis of transformers and dynamos. There is a capacity to do work, but the mathematical function describing the work cannot be written in the form of a potential. Circuit theory does not deal with magnetic fluxes at all, but lumps their effects into inductances (self and mutual) and "voltage sources". ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 22:48:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16768; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 22:47:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 22:47:04 -0800 Message-ID: <38CB3CF9.D08F249C ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:45:14 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Voltage without pressure References: <20000312044105.5191.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MAfGX1.0.w54.erpou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > John Berry wrote: > > I often hear that voltage is pressure, but I've always felt this > > description as lacking. > > Voltage is a difference of potential energy between two places, for example, > between two battery terminals. It is the integral or summed effect of the > electric field along any path joining the two points. Voltage is the ability > to do work. yes, that is the definition. But as there is no difference in the electrical pressure of the situation I explained there is no voltage. And no voltage no electrical energy supposedly. > > > > Anyway I have a riddle. > > > > If you have an AL pie plate or other conductive metal with a spring > > attached compressed by a magnet. > > > > If the magnet is released it will fly away from the plate inducing eddy > > currents. > > There is current but no "conventional" voltage. > > This is a problem, there is energy, it induced current which created > > heat. It slowed the magnet. If we tried to recapture the energy of the > > magnet with another spring we would find less energy than if there had > > been no plate. > > > > So if there is no voltage then how is there energy? Energy is current x > > voltage. > > If voltage is zero then so is energy. > > Even after the magnet come to rest with respect to the plate from > > compressing the spring the current in the plate still continues for a > > short time. > > > > So if there is still voltage, Just a different type then where is it? > > what is it? > > There is an induced electric field,induced by the changing magnetic field. > The analog of "voltage" in this case is the integral (or summed effect) of > the electric field around a closed path (or complete circuit or loop), and it > is called "electromotive force" or EMF. It can also do work. People often > loosely say "voltage" to indicate how much energy can be imparted by either > way. If you tape a loop of wire to the pie plate and connect the wires to the > input terminals of an oscilloscope, you will see the EMF as a display of > 'scope terminal voltage. Yes, I know about this type of electrical field, but it does not explain my case. It does not matter what induces the current. What if you had a rotating ring which was suddenly stopped you might expect a current for a small fraction of a time to flow through the ring. How the current is induced is not the important part. the important part is explaining the other electrical factor, flow of electrons past a point in the wire over one second. and the speed or energy or something in each of those electrons which might depend on the resistance. So what if we have a super conducting ring? Do we say there is no energy in the current? > > > The concept of potential energy applies when the electric field and any > magnetic field that might be present are both static (not changingIn this > case, if a charge is carried around a complete closed path in a static > situation, the net energy it receives from the electric field is zero. By the > way, in electric circuit theory, this property is known as Kirchoff's > "voltage law". If the magnetic flux is changing, however, the charge gains or > loses energy if it is carried around a closed path, and the energy change is > the EMF times the charge. This is the basis of transformers and dynamos. > There is a capacity to do work, but the mathematical function describing the > work cannot be written in the form of a potential. Circuit theory does not > deal with magnetic fluxes at all, but lumps their effects into inductances > (self and mutual) and "voltage sources". > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 11 23:24:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA21802; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:13:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:10:51 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"SSuxp.0.2K5.bEqou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bob - This IPO is going to be one of the most interesting ever. Talk about bashing! I bet this thing's going to get creamed in the press, and the stock chat boards will look like SPF! If that scenario happens (very likely), and ***IFF*** Scott and others can replicate (and get publicly ignored/debunked as is usual for such experiments), then those incredibly valuable shares are going to go Real Cheap for a while, until it finally dawns on everyone that it's real. Revenge of the Nerds Part Deux. This could be the big one. Better than SCON and PLUG put together. Or not. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Wow! Talk about a complete 180!! This is terriffic news. > >If Scott can't confirm Mills' results with the help of Good, we will know the >truth. If he can, I'll buy all of the BLP stock I can get my hands on. > >Bob Briggs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 01:31:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA14350; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:30:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:30:14 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:29:37 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"YYY_z1.0.3W3.cEsou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/8/00 11:13:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > Vince, > > In a glow discharge the fractions of the input power that appear as heating > to cathode, anode and out the side wall all change slowly as a function of > current density and gas pressure. The fractions also change if you change > the gas composition and the cathode metal. From the photos your > web page (good job--useful information), your calorimeter does not look like it measures > heat escaping along the electrodes and the ends of the quartz tube. It was never meant to be a calorimeter Mike. > Therefore, since not all the heat is captured, and since the heat captured > depends on many factors, it is not surprising that the calorimeter > temperature does not remain constant while pressure is varied while input > power is held constant. Furthermore, it is to be expected that the > temperature will be different again when you add potassium. I'm sure it will be. > > You need to capture most of the heat and run it past your temperature > sensor(s). Unless you have a reproducible, one-to-one relation between power > and temperature that is independent of all other variables, you cannot do > the experiment you want to do. I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to do here. Not calorimetry at all. What I want is run a bunch of glow discharge runs in H2 as a calibration, capturing most of the radiation, UV and IR emitted by the tube. If some is lost through the electrodes I don't care. Just how hot the present sensor gets with the existing setup is OK. Then, I use the exact same setup for a run and add K into the equation. I want to see if there is a large difference between H2 no K and H2 with K. IF there is a difference THEN I will address the calorimetry issue. I have already started thinking and sketching a design for a heat exchanger that will completely enclose the entire tube. Upper tube seal is a bit of a problem as there is a vacuum and electrical connection there. I'm using a neoprene O-ring now but that probably won't work due to much higher temperatures that will occur if the tube is enclosed inside a heat exchanger. I envision a 2 or 3 inch diameter coil of 1/4 inch copper tubing about 8 inches high with insulator support disks at each end that would support the glow tube. Like I said, the problem is going to be tube sealing to the vacuum system. The rest is a piece of cake. > > I tried a couple of calorimetry setups with my glow discharge several years > ago, but they were not satisfactory. I made trial designs of several > improved > calorimeters for it, but I was never satisfied that they would work well > enough, and they were all too complicated. If I were to go back to doing > such > experiments again, I would start by trying to design a compatible water flow > calorimeter along the lines of Scott Little's. That I won't get into but will take up Scotts offer of his PWFC. That will work if I can rig up the heat exchanger / support / seal assembly. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 01:31:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA14388; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:30:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:30:22 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <6.32eafc9.25fcbd82 aol.com> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:29:38 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"zZEX23.0.kW3.kEsou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Here are the raw data from Saturdays run at 20 torr fill. Something quite strange happened at T+112, tube pressure and temperature began rapid rise, up 17C in a couple of minutes. I have posted a possible explanation and a graph of the entire run at my website on the GRAPHS PAGE 1 link on the main page. This run is charted in Lotus 123 format and if anyone out there wants the file let me know and I will upload it to you. Tr was 18.3C at the start and went to 19C +-1.0C at T+75 Tc +-0.1C Tf +-0.01 Torr Pin +- 0.01 watt Time Min Tc Tf Pin Tc - Tr =============================== 000 18.3 20.06 0 0.3 002 65.4 19.94 20.03 47.4 005 127.3 19.95 20 109.3 010 211.1 20.05 20 193.1 015 260.5 20.12 20 242.5 020 287.2 20.27 20 269.2 025 303.1 20.36 20 285.1 030 313.2 20.47 20 295.2 035 319.1 20.57 20 301.1 040 321.1 19.58 20 303.1 045 323.4 19.68 20 305.4 050 325.1 19.81 20 307.1 055 326.1 19.92 20 308.1 060 326.4 20.03 20 308.4 065 327 20.02 20 309 070 327.6 20.02 20 309.6 075 326.9 20.02 20 307.9 080 328.2 20.06 20 309.2 085 327.5 20.17 20 308.5 090 327.3 20.27 20 308.3 095 327.7 19.9 20 308.7 100 328.2 20 20 309.2 105 328.9 20.12 20 309.9 110 329.2 20 20.03 310.2 112 344.6 24.61 20 325.6 <-rapid rise here 115 346 19.71 20 327 120 345.5 19.79 20 326.5 125 343.9 19.81 20.33 324.9 130 342.1 19.81 20.11 323.1 135 341.1 19.8 20.06 322.1 140 341.9 15.21 20 322.9 145 343.4 15.26 20 324.4 150 345.3 15.28 20 326.3 Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 06:14:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18514; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 06:13:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 06:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: <007201bf8c35$5751d7c0$0a441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: 27.2 ev Positrino-Negatrino Pairs Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 07:11:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"6zDln.0.AX4.EOwou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The next resonance point for Positrino-Negatrino Pair Production is 54.4 ev which is the 1.02 Mev Electron-Positron Pair Production Energy times Alpha Squared. Alpha = 0.00729729 (The "Fine Structure Constant"). Coincidentally, the Radius, R = kq^2/Eo for a 27.2 ev Light Lepton is 5.29E-11 meters the Same as the Ground-State Bohr Radius of the Hydrogen Atom. The 54.4 ev EUV from the Helium transitions on the Sun could produce these in the Earth's Ionosphere (at ~ 85 Km and up) and they should permeate the Earth's Atmosphere/Hydrosphere attached to water molecules, etc. This gets things closer to Mills' Hydrino hypothesis and would allow fractional orbit manifestations: Bohr Radius/n^2 = kq^2/(n^2*Eo) Thus when n gets to 137 the Neutral Entity (P* or D*) formed would have a Radius of 2.81 Fermi (the radius of the electron)and a relativistic mass, Mrel = Mo[(n^2*Eo/Eo)+ 1] ie., the relativistic mass would equal the Rest Mass of the Electron, and CF reactions could occur concurrently releasing the Negatrino which will return to it's intial radius and, can dissipate it's energy in fractions of millimeters without detection with ordinary radiation detection equipment. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 07:10:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30968; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 07:10:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 07:10:03 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38CBC194.311CE7CC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:11:00 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: project underway References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"2HPcO2.0.oZ7.ADxou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: This [BlackLight] IPO is going to be one of the most interesting ever. Talk about bashing! I bet this thing's going to get creamed in the press, and the stock chat boards will look like SPF! ... This could be the big one ... Hi Rick, The BlackLight lawyers have good reason to run an anti-defamation campaign. The purpose of the IPO is to raise capital. If the price of shares goes up fast, Mills can sell some of his shares at much higher than the IPO to raise even more capital. I dearly hope Scott is successful. His proposal for sampling the off gases is excellent. I would be very interested in hearing about his spectroscopy plans. I'm sure none of us has an objection to Mills becoming a mega-trillionaire, especially if some of us can go along for a million or so. Is this life imitating art, as in the background for Robert Heinleins's novel "Friday"? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 08:44:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA20196; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:42:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:42:24 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 11:54:11 -0500 Message-ID: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"poFEa2.0.Ux4.lZyou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack writes: >Hi Rick, > >The BlackLight lawyers have good reason to run an anti-defamation >campaign. The purpose of the IPO is to raise capital. If the >price of shares goes up fast, Mills can sell some of his shares >at much higher than the IPO to raise even more capital. > >I dearly hope Scott is successful. His proposal for sampling the >off gases is excellent. I would be very interested in hearing >about his spectroscopy plans. > >I'm sure none of us has an objection to Mills becoming a >mega-trillionaire, especially if some of us can go along for >a million or so. Is this life imitating art, as in the background >for Robert Heinleins's novel "Friday"? > >Jack Smith Since there is no VortexOink-l, maybe you should move this chatter into VortexB-l. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 12:15:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05956; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:14:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:14:45 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> References: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 10:14:37 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"7AlUw3.0.-S1.qg_ou" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke - > Since there is no VortexOink-l, maybe you > should move this chatter into VortexB-l. Oh come on, we didn't even mention politics, religion, or UFOs, and the posts were short ond on-topic to some apparently big developments regarding the main subject matter of this list. The commercial aspects of a possible revolution in energy are very relevant on many levels, including public and professional reaction to stock issues by early participants in this category. But I understand you have a hard anti-capitalist/anti-commercial stripe on you, and you're welcome to sell your side of it as well (pun intended). - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 13:05:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16507; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:04:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:04:23 -0800 Message-ID: <009201bf8c6e$b34ca8a0$0a441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Is The Sun Burning Sodium and Potassium Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:01:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"hXW9p.0.n14.MP0pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Looked up some atom abundance ratios on the Webelements website: www.webelements.com One might conclude that the Alkali metals are reacting with the Neutral Entities P* (or D*) formed by uptake of a Negatrino: P* + Li-7 ---> 2 He-4 + Negatrino + ~17.5 Mev P* + Na-23 ---> Mg-24 + Negatrino + ~ 12.0 Mev P* + K-39 ---> Ca-40 + Negatrino + ~ 9.0 Mev PPB by Atoms Seawater Stream Sun Na/Mg 2,970,000/337,000 350/170 2,000/30,000 Na/K 2,970,000/65,800 350/59 2,000/100 K/Ca 65,800/650 59/38 100/2,000 Would this help account for the missing Neutrinos? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 16:05:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01651; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:02:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:02:28 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:14:17 -0500 Message-ID: <20000313001417781.AAA317 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"IXiNn1.0.jP.K03pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Oh come on, we didn't even mention politics, religion, or UFOs, and >the posts were short ond on-topic to some apparently big developments >regarding the main subject matter of this list. The commercial >aspects of a possible revolution in energy are very relevant on many >levels, including public and professional reaction to stock issues by >early participants in this category. But I understand you have a hard >anti-capitalist/anti-commercial stripe on you, and you're welcome to >sell your side of it as well (pun intended). > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Jesus Saves, Moses Invests, but me and Elvis are gonna Rock and Roll Forever. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 19:25:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10773; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:23:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:23:12 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <73.1968e74.25fdb8db aol.com> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:22:03 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_yNV.0.Fe2.Wy5pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Regarding the sudden pressure and temperature rise in Saturdays run posted at the website: One possible explanation; recall that the cathode is recessed 5mm inside the sleeve.After extended running, W builds up on the inside of this sleeve. At some point the sleeve will start acting as the cathode, shortening the electrode gap by 5mm. At present the gap from the anode to the cathode is 13mm which puts the end of the cathode sleeve 8mm from the anode. If this sleeve became conductive due to W plating in it that would make for a much shorter electrode gap. Hmm... but it does not explain the sudden pressure rise...or does it? I don't know. Food for thought here: Would a 5mm to 8mm electrode gap make for better running? Something to think about. ======end of website post========== Sunday, March 12, 2000 I set up a new tube and installed the components from the above run without any cleaning or other changes, without the heat sensor so I would be able to observe what's going on in the tube. Turn out that the above possible explanation was correct. After about 10 minutes running at 20 torr the tube voltage dropped from ~1400 to ~400 and the current increased from ~16 mA to ~45mA and the cathode sleeve began glowing at orange / white heat. So it was the cathode sleeve W plating acting as the cathode that caused the change in tube characteristics. Now all I have to sort out if this is a good or a bad thing. It is good in the sense that it opened the possibility that a shorter electrode gap may enhance tube performance, but bad that if true, I'm going to have to recalibrate at a smaller gap. Sheesh! Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 19:32:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15446; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:31:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:31:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:29:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Resent-Message-ID: <"rV3XF1.0.Fn3.146pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jack writes: >>Hi Rick, >> >>The BlackLight lawyers have good reason to run an anti-defamation >>campaign. The purpose of the IPO is to raise capital. If the >>price of shares goes up fast, Mills can sell some of his shares >>at much higher than the IPO to raise even more capital. >> >>I dearly hope Scott is successful. His proposal for sampling the >>off gases is excellent. I would be very interested in hearing >>about his spectroscopy plans. >> >>I'm sure none of us has an objection to Mills becoming a >>mega-trillionaire, especially if some of us can go along for >>a million or so. Is this life imitating art, as in the background >>for Robert Heinleins's novel "Friday"? >> >>Jack Smith > >Since there is no VortexOink-l, maybe you should move this chatter into >VortexB-l. ***{Huh? This sounds like a backhanded way of calling Jack a pig. However, that would make no sense, so I assume I am missing the point. Exactly what are you trying to say here, Knuke? --MJ}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 12 20:51:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09359; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:49:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:49:46 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000312224704.01230bf8 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:47:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: <38CBC194.311CE7CC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JdSeL2.0.8I2.fD7pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:11 PM 3/12/2000 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >I dearly hope Scott is successful. His proposal for sampling the >off gases is excellent. I would be very interested in hearing >about his spectroscopy plans. I haven't formulated any yet, Jack. I told Mills that we wanted to confirm the excess heat first. If we can just do that (i.e. get a robust excess heat signal that withstands every validity test I can throw at it) we'll have a brand new ballgame on our hands! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 02:18:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA04132; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 02:17:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 02:17:47 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 05:29:37 -0500 Message-ID: <20000313102937828.AAA259 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"OBgdn1.0.U01.B1Cpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch writes: >***{Huh? This sounds like a backhanded way of calling Jack a pig. However, >that would make no sense, so I assume I am missing the point. Exactly what >are you trying to say here, Knuke? --MJ}*** It wasn't meant to be backhanded at all. Sorry if I gave that impression. What I am saying on behalf of the 30 million people who had to choose between paying a heating bill and eating this winter, is that anyone having a working device and $25 million dollars should have produced it instead of positioning himself for a takeover of the entire energy and exotic materials market. Pig, swine, whatever you want to call it, that type of behavior is exactly what I see too much of in the market today. I also think that it is morally reprehensible, but then who in business can afford to have morals these days. It's like having a cure for AIDS or cancer, and keeping it buried until the market is "ready" for it, or after an election so that your political party is in power to take full advantage of the money making opportunity. Forget about the people who are dying in the interim, just maximize that profit potential. It's like sending a temporary laborer into a radioactive spill, telling him to clean it up, but not telling him what it is, then losing all the employment records from that timeperiod. It's like denying that there was a problem at Hanford for seven years that may have put millions of lives at risk. It's like watching the entire upper echelon of the US Pentagon and the President and Vice President, standing up together in front of a camera, and saying that there was no Gulf War Syndrome, simply because they didn't want to pay the hospital bills. It's like allowing an oil field leak to continue to leak for months after first learning about it, until the area qualifies as a Superfund site, then hiring the same crew to fix it that installed it in the first place, and then finding out that they didn't actually fix it. Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens all the time. Quite a lot of it happened while Shelby Brewer was in the DOE, and that is a matter of public record. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. This is just how business and government work. In my opinion, that is despicable, but for many people in this world, the money is the only thing that matters. The three years that I spent investing in Wall Street taught me a great deal about how business really works, and my own brief experience in the energy marketplace just verified what I learned on a very personal and real level. I got to hear and see first hand what I had been reading about in the quarterly reports of the companies that I had invested in, read in the Wall Street Journal, and watched happen on newsgroups such as this one. A couple of guys with "inside knowledge" would get on the group, wind everybody up, and then after the big plummet, we would find out that they were unloading their own stock, while telling everybody on the group that they should buy now and get rich quick. When I see Jack explaining how Mills is probably going to sell off some of his shares immediately to raise even more capital for himself, over and above what the proposed IPO will bring in for his company, like this is something really clever, the world looks a bit surreal to me. I should say that something like that used to affect me that way. Now, I find it just plain boorish and unscientific. It has no place here, in my opinion. It belongs on VortexB or some investment newsgroup. What I think will happen in the very near future, (if it hasn't already happened) is that while Mills is doing his book promotion and speaking tour about the New World Paradigm, finagling his portfolio, negotiating licenses, threatening to sue everybody that owns a house and doesn't publically worship him, rubbing elbows with the Washington crowd, and generally doing everything *except* putting out a heater, is that someone else will produce a working heater or even better, an electrical generator for about $200 retail, that won't have anything remotely to do with "hydrinos", and BLP stock could easily be worth about 25 cents a roll to whomever is left holding it. After the proposed IPO, Mills and all his initial investors could easily walk away with millions in their pockets, whether there is still a market for any of his proposed discoveries or not, and everything will be Perfectly Legal, unless somebody goofs it up. All of this about the future (or present, as it very well may be in your timezone) is *purely* my own speculation of course, and *not* to be taken as investment advice, a judgement on the character or actions of any of the BLP management or employees, their promoters, paid or unpaid, their current or potential future investors, neither is it to be taken as a representation as to the possible future value of the stock of the BLP corporation, or the usability or worth of any of their products, currently in existence or proposed. How is that for butt covering corppigspeak? In fact, it is inspired by nothing more than a cosmic giggle I had while reading something the other day, but that is something that has never let me down before. Now, if we can get on with the actual science discussions, I would appreciate it. Well, it's one for the money Two for the show Three to get ready Now go cat go But don't you Step on my blue suede shoes You can do what you like But stay off of my blue suede shoes Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 06:42:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15394; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:41:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:41:36 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38CD0C68.18059287 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:42:32 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: project underway References: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"q0aZ7.0.Om3.TuFpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack wrote: I'm sure none of us has an objection to Mills becoming a mega-trillionaire, especially if some of us can go along for a million or so. Knuke wrote: Since there is no VortexOink-l, maybe you should move this chatter into VortexB-l. Jesus Saves, Moses Invests, but me and Elvis are gonna Rock and Roll Forever. You can do what you like But stay off of my blue suede shoes Hi Knuke, "Oinking the Bull" -- I like that. When excitement is high, some comic relief is almost necessary. Elvis and Graceland are right up there with other capitalist wonders of our age such as Michael Jackson the Beetles, and the NFL (where I have the suspicion that sports betting under the guidance of the Mafia is the most important aspect of the entertainment) When it comes to "panem et circensem", at least Mills has the possibility of being on the "bread" side, in constrast to the mind-numbing amusements into which so many Americans are willing to pour their resources. (That sounds a bit stuffy -- oh well.) Knuke writes: What I think will happen in the very near future, ... is that while Mills is doing his ..., someone else will produce a working heater or even better, an electrical generator for about $200 retail, that won't have anything remotely to do with "hydrinos", and BLP stock could easily be worth about 25 cents a roll to whomever is left holding it. After the proposed IPO, Mills and all his initial investors could easily walk away with millions in their pockets, whether there is still a market for any of his proposed discoveries or not ... Jack writes: Your warning should be taken to heart by all of us, since with this kind of thing it's definitely buyer beware; and nobody should bet their retirement or the grocery money. But for those of us who don't buy lottery tickets, what the heck! And Scott should skip the spectroscopy so we can get some results before the IPO (and perhaps be ready to "screw [our] courage to the sticking point"). Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 07:05:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19269; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:57:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:57:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313095622.007a7330 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:56:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: project underway In-Reply-To: References: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NRaPR3.0.ri4.P7Gpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke wrote: What I am saying on behalf of the 30 million people who had to choose between paying a heating bill and eating this winter, is that anyone having a working device and $25 million dollars should have produced it instead of positioning himself for a takeover of the entire energy and exotic materials market. . . . I also think that it is morally reprehensible . . . I agree completely. When I see Jack explaining how Mills is probably going to sell off some of his shares immediately to raise even more capital for himself, over and above what the proposed IPO will bring in for his company . . . I know little about the stock market, but I believe the SEC prohibits this practice. My understanding is that the original owners are not allowed to sell for some period of time after the IPO. Stock market manipulators outside the company are free to "pump and dump" after the IPO. Rick Monteverde wrote to Knuke: But I understand you have a hard anti-capitalist/anti-commercial stripe on you, and you're welcome to sell your side of it as well (pun intended). I have no anti-capitalist or anti-commercial sentiments, but I find Mills' behavior reprehensible, outrageous and self-defeating. Mills is the enemy of capitalism and commercialization! He is suing people instead of letting the market decide who is right. He should trust his customers and ignore the loudmouth scientists. They would not hurt him if he would only *take action*. He could shut them up permanently by performing a few demonstrations and selling a few prototype systems. He could make a small effort for a few thousand dollars and drive IPO value of his company up a hundredfold. Instead, he has embarked on suicidal legal tactics that will cost him $100,000 and accomplish nothing. He has chosen to fight the one battle he cannot win, in the court system -- of all places. It is tragedy and a farce. Look at the history of controversial new inventions and discoveries. I do not think you will find a single example of one that triumphed over the opposition in court. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 08:10:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14175; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:07:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:07:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:06:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mills paper in Fusion Technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Wc381.0.JT3.r8Hpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A new paper: Randell L. Mills, "Novel Hydrogen Compounds from a Potassium Carbonate Electrolytic Cell," Fusion Technology, Vol. 37, March 2000, p. 157 - 182 Abstract: Novel compounds containing hydrogen in new hydride and polymeric states that demonstrate novel hydrogen chemistry have been isolated following the electrolysis of a K2C03 electrolyte with the production of excess energy. Inorganic hydride clusters K[KH KHCO3]n+ and hydrogen polymer ions such as OH+23 and H-16 were identified by time-of-flight secondary ion mass spectroscopy. The presence of compounds containing new states of hydrogen was confirmed by X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy, X-ray diffraction, Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy, Raman spectroscopy, and proton nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. This paper is way over my head, and I have little interest in the content, except the part where a cell at Thermacore produced 1.6 * 10^9 joules of enthalpy, and another at BlackLight Power (BLP) produced 6.3 x 10^8 joules. Anyway, it looks like a lot of work went into this research. Many tests have performed by credible sounding outside labs, including Thermacore, Idaho National Engineering Lab (INEL), Evans East, Surface Science Laboratories, Virginia Polytechnic Institute, and so on. I could not begin to say whether the results from these labs really do support the Mills theories, and I could not care less about it, but if you understand the technical issues and you are looking for credibility tests, these places look more suitable than EarthTech Int'l, Inc. As far as I can tell, only Thermacore and BLP did calorimetry. With all due respect for Scott Little, I am sure the people at Thermacore are way better at chemistry and calorimetry than he is. I do not understand why the readers here hold his work as some sort of truth test or final arbiter of the reality of the Mills claims, or as a place that might ignite stock market interest in the IPO. I doubt that Scott himself imagines he has that kind of influence. I myself never look to one lab for verification. I like to see five or ten places replicate. Or, if the labs are as good as SRI or Los Alamos, the tests are repeated many times, and the S/N ratio is high, two or three replications will convince me. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 08:35:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23946; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:34:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:34:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000413103334.01250854 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:33:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6dOIP2.0.3s5.6YHpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:06 AM 3/13/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >With all due respect for Scott Little, I am sure the people at Thermacore >are way better at chemistry and calorimetry than he is. Regarding their calorimetry, all I have handy is the description in Mills' book of a simple open-air isoperibolic method (notoriously error-prone) they applied to a 5 gallon plastic bucket electrolysis cell. Can you direct me to information that supports your statement above? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 08:52:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04328; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:48:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:48:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:40:47 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"_trK-3.0.W31.tlHpu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > As far as I can tell, only >Thermacore and BLP did calorimetry. The Mills calorimetry reproduction was also done at NASA, at Idaho National Engineering Laboratory (Jacox citation in Village Voice), and most certainly at MIT Lincoln Laboratory). Dr. Charles Haldeman, formerly of Lincoln Lab, expresses 100% confidence in his excess heat results. Sadly, neither Lincoln Lab nor Idaho results, which we all paid for, are in the public domain. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 08:56:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30240; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:54:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:54:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313113930.007f18c0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:39:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000413103334.01250854 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6IwpP3.0.OO7.yqHpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 AM 4/13/00 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >At 11:06 AM 3/13/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>With all due respect for Scott Little, I am sure the people at Thermacore >>are way better at chemistry and calorimetry than he is. > >Regarding their calorimetry, all I have handy is the description in Mills' >book of a simple open-air isoperibolic method (notoriously error-prone) ... Stated but unproven. Can you support your statement with people who did accurate controls? Dr. Mills used controls which we have recommended, including step functions during electrolysis on and off, and cooling curves -- and they do calibrate. You might consider to try them yourself. ;-)X Dr. Mitchell Swartz >they applied to a 5 gallon plastic bucket electrolysis cell. Can you >direct me to information that supports your statement above? > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 09:32:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11219; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:28:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:28:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313122707.0079c800 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:27:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000413103334.01250854 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dEG7m1.0.Dl2.dKIpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 4/13/2000 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >Regarding their calorimetry, all I have handy is the description in Mills' >book of a simple open-air isoperibolic method (notoriously error-prone) . . . Yeah, that was kinda ridiculous. With all the money he had, you would think he'd do a better job. Rumor has it that Thermacore did a better job on the gas loading cells, but I have no formal reports. Simple open-air isoperibolic is indeed error-prone, but I do not think it could account for the 8 deg C, 50 W excess described by D. Ernst (Thermacore) in 1992. Things like room temperature fluctuations will screw up this calorimetry, but I have never heard of a room with short term temperature swings of 8 deg C! (70 deg F to 86 deg F.) Maybe if they did it in a bakery or a steel mill, or next to the loading dock in winter in Pennsylvania . . . Anyway, none of this will mean anything until we see 5 or 10 big labs perform a hundred test runs. There is nothing to get excited about. I hope that Mills intends to encourage others to replicate, and it seems he is doing that, but you never know with companies like BLP or CETI. One minute they act like rational businessmen, the next minute they are suing Nobel Laureate scientists who disagree with them, or sabotaging the Pons-Fleischmann patent, or pissing away millions of dollars on real estate. One thing I can say for sure: I would not invest in a company run by fruitcakes who do things like that! I don't care how good the technology is or how much investment capital they drum up. People who make idiotic business decisions will fail. Shockley was a big-name scientist with all the right connections. He co-invented the transistor, got a Nobel and bla, bla, bla, but when he tried to into business, with everything in his favor and people throwing money at him, he failed repeatedly. He alienated his researchers and make disastrous choices, going after unimportant products while ignoring potential gold mines, which is the same mistake Mills makes when he ignores energy and goes after exotic (imaginary?) chemicals. Shockley lost millions. Knowing physics and knowing how to run a company are two different things. A few people, like Andrew Grove have both kinds of genius, but Mills does not strike me as another Grove. We'll see. Maybe I misjudge him. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 09:43:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16540; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:40:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:40:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:39:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "VORTEX" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"reLTU1.0.B24.AWIpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: >> As far as I can tell, only >>Thermacore and BLP did calorimetry. > >The Mills calorimetry reproduction was also done at NASA, at Idaho >National Engineering Laboratory (Jacox citation in Village Voice), and >most certainly at MIT Lincoln Laboratory). I meant as reported in this latest paper. I do not see any references here to calorimetry at other locations, but I have not read it carefully. The NASA results were not conclusive. As I recall, there is a good chance they were caused by recombination. The MIT results were reportedly excellent. It is a shame they are being held hostage to politics. >Sadly, neither Lincoln Lab nor Idaho results, which we all paid for, are >in the public domain. They are not referenced in this latest paper. Mills cannot reference unpublished work in Fusion Technology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 09:45:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13470; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:33:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:33:50 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330DE mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mills paper in Fusion Technology Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:36:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"fIz2K2.0.OI3.zPIpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All of this calorimetry debate could be made moot if only proper controls were a part of the experiment. Have one cell running say K2CO3 (an active hydrino formation catalyst) and the other one running Na2CO3 (an inert substance in terms of hydrino production). That way, you're measuring the heat difference between a baseline and an active cell rather than worrying too much about calorimetry errors, assuming they're prepared exactly the same way. All the errors then cancel out implicitly. That has been the major weakness of every Mills cell replication attempt that I have seen going back to 1991--nobody bothered to do proper control cells, like Mills-Kneisys did in their original 1991 paper and I'm sure Thermacore did. This left the replication experiments vulnerable to all sorts of criticism in terms of calorimetry calibration issues, recombination, gnomes, etc. Controls are not a corner that should be cut even though they increase your equipment cost. Steven Florek -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little [mailto:little earthtech.org] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 8:34 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology At 11:06 AM 3/13/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >With all due respect for Scott Little, I am sure the people at Thermacore >are way better at chemistry and calorimetry than he is. Regarding their calorimetry, all I have handy is the description in Mills' book of a simple open-air isoperibolic method (notoriously error-prone) they applied to a 5 gallon plastic bucket electrolysis cell. Can you direct me to information that supports your statement above? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 10:10:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25436; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:04:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:04:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313130302.0079a180 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:03:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313122707.0079c800 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000413103334.01250854 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fyfAm3.0.KD6.VsIpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Maybe if they did it in a bakery or a steel mill, >or next to the loading dock in winter in Pennsylvania . . . For the uninitiated, there was a weird video shot of the experiments underway at Thermacore in one of the CF documentaries, and by golly, it did look like they were conducting the experiment in a warehouse, with fork lift driving by in the background. That is about the worst possible location they could have picked. Things like this do shake one's faith in Thermacore's core competence. Also, as Steven Florek points out, they apparently did not do the obvious 'blank' experiments. On the other hand, look at their web page: http://www.thermacore.com/design.htm They have international subsidiaries, millions in income, an extensive product line and all the rest of it. They must know something about thermal engineering and calorimetry, because that's all they do. Right? How could they stay in business otherwise? The idea that they do not know calorimetry is like suggesting that IBM engineers do not know hexadecimal arithmetic. I don't know . . . people do make mind-boggling mistakes. That's why you gotta have independent replications. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 10:27:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15207; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:18:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:18:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313131653.0079f5a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:16:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Thermacore in joint venture with J-M (not CF) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id KAA15102 Resent-Message-ID: <"3ei2K1.0.si3.Q3Jpu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This has nothing to do with CF, but Thermacore announced a joint venture with Johnson-Matthey a year ago. From their web site press releases: "Thermacore, Flomerics, and Johnson Matthey Electronics Sign Agreements to Provide Expanded Scope of Thermal Management Design, Validation, and Manufacturing Capabilities Spokane, Wash., March 10, 1999 – Thermacore, Flomerics, and Johnson Matthey Electronics (JME) announced today that they have signed a strategic business agreement that will combine each company’s field of expertise in thermal management and allow for a joint marketing and sales program. Thermacore International Inc. is a global supplier of thermal management products to the microelectronics, power semiconductor and telecommunications industries . . ." There are some interesting technical papers on the web site too, which also make me think these people know a heck of a lot about heat flux. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 10:34:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00718; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:25:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:25:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313131832.007eda40 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:18:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EivSe.0.2B.UAJpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:27 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Yeah, that was kinda ridiculous. With all the money he had, you would think >he'd do a better job. Rumor has it that Thermacore did a better job on the >gas loading cells, but I have no formal reports. Simple open-air >isoperibolic is indeed error-prone, Although you minimize the need for controls, when done correctly, it is not-error prone. It even enabled Lavoisier to determine the difference in specific heat between venous and arterial blood (leading him to his deduction of it carrying oxygen). Also, given that Jed prefers the calibration-free, error-prone, amplifying, vertical-directed flow calorimetry, it is laughable he calls isoperibolic work "error-prone". ===================================================== At 12:39 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >The NASA results were not conclusive. As I recall, there is a good chance >they were caused by recombination. The MIT results were reportedly >excellent. It is a shame they are being held hostage to politics. The NASA of nickel/H2O expts were not caused by recombination, as the article noted, and the author confirmed. Furthermore, there are more than a single "MIT results". ;-)X >>Sadly, neither Lincoln Lab nor Idaho results, which we all paid for, are >>in the public domain. > >They are not referenced in this latest paper. Mills cannot reference >unpublished work in Fusion Technology. > >- Jed On the contrary, authors do, on occasion, cite unpublished work. Hope that clarifies. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 10:37:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18299; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:30:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:30:31 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313095622.007a7330 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.6.32.20000313095622.007a7330 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:29:45 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: BLP: project underway Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"97TPT1.0.gT4.2FJpu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed said: >He is suing people instead of letting the market decide who is right. He >should trust his customers and ignore the loudmouth scientists. They >would not hurt him if he would only *take action*. He could shut them >up permanently by performing a few demonstrations and selling a few >prototype systems. If you're trying to start a business and raise capital and someone accuses you of a crime like fraud which you believe you have not committed, I think you have every right, including the moral right, to sue. It might even be considered a lack responsibility to shareholders *not* to sue in the case of something like prominent scientists or organizations publishing such false charges against you. But the rest I agree with too - do the demos first. Then sue 'em anyway and make it really hurt. It's one thing to disagree on a principle and voice that disagreement. It's another to claim that due to your understanding of certain scientific theories and principles, that someone's else's actions must constitute fraud because their claims seem to violate those understandings. I'm no lawyer, but I think the second case is actionable if such claims are made publicly and are capable of causing harm in some way. If he's suing just because somebody disagreed, then he's an idiot - and so are his lawyers and any judge who lets it pass. But I can't agree with you on not suing if false accusations were made. I think irresponsible scientists and others should be held directly accountable for their serious misdeeds. We would all benefit if an appropriate chill were to descend on the rubbishing "scientists" do WHEN IT CROSSES THE LINE. Just finding out later they were wrong doesn't teach them or stop their behavior, as you have pointed out many times in this list. I think they should be punished where it hurts - in funding and personal income. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 10:51:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10486; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:48:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:48:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:47:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"PbuX42.0.lZ2.eVJpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - >I do not understand why the readers here hold his work as some sort of >truth test or final arbiter of the reality of the Mills claims, or as a >place that might ignite stock market interest in the IPO. Because we feel closer or he's more accessible? And not at all that Scott's tests themselves would have any affect on the larger body of opinion, but rather that people on this list might feel that they have some information they can put some credibility in if that information is positive contrary to the broader opinion out there. In that case the public at large would have only what Time/CNN etc. tells them to believe, which I think will be controlled more or less by the skeptical side. That's what I think makes it potentially interesting. But this is all really preliminary and speculative. We'll see. And by the way, what really bugs me about the Time/CNN/etc. infomonopoly is not just that they presume to tell us *what* to believe, but that through the snicker factor and other clues, they tell us what it's *sane* to believe. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 10:58:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14869; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:56:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:56:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000413125605.0124423c earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:56:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313130302.0079a180 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313122707.0079c800 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000413103334.01250854 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tjALI1.0.3e3.WdJpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:03 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >They have international subsidiaries, millions in income, an extensive >product line and all the rest of it. They must know something about thermal >engineering and calorimetry, because that's all they do. Right? ...er, the web site says. "Thermacore International....leads the global market in design and production of thermal management solutions for electronics cooling." They make heat exchangers. Sure they understand temperature and heat properly but so does every other physicist. The challenges in calorimetry lie in the reduction of systematic errors to tolerable levels. I don't see any aspect of their business that would promote the kind of analytical mentality required for that. I'm not saying they made bad calorimetric measurements. They may have been wonderfully accurate. I just don't see any supporting evidence for that yet. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 11:12:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20789; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000413130920.0124a684 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:09:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313131832.007eda40 world.std.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NHq2l2.0.f45.2qJpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:18 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>Simple open-air >>isoperibolic is indeed error-prone, >Although you minimize the need for controls, when done correctly, >it is not-error prone. It can provide accurate results...but it can also produce large errors. For example, Storms has shown how it can produce false positive excess heat results when a layer of bubbles collects on the cell wall (during electrolysis) and significantly reduces the conductivity of the walls from that value that was in effect during Joule heater calibration. >It even enabled Lavoisier to determine >the difference in specific heat between venous and arterial blood >(leading him to his deduction of it carrying oxygen). hmmmm? perhaps Lavoisier tried open-air isoperibolic calorimetry...but apparently he didn't like it. Instead he and Laplace are known for developing a phase-transition calorimeter for the measurements you mentioned (see "Calorimetry, Fundamentals and Practice" Hemminger & Hohne, p. 6-7). Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 11:38:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28840; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:30:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:30:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313142857.007a2b10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:28:57 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Zimmerman talk at upcoming APS meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cCb823.0.T27.27Kpu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Session J12 - FPS Awards Session-Business Meeting. MIXED session, Sunday afternoon, April 30 101B, Long Beach Convention Center [J12.001 ] Touching the Third Rail: Encounters with Pseudoscience and Pseudoscientists Peter D. Zimmerman (United States Department of State, Washington, DC 20520) Pseudoscience, and particularly "pseudophysics" is alive and thriving as we approach the turn of the millennium. Not only have many "inventors" of cold fusion spin-offs been making money from investors, but they and "inventors" of various kinds of "zero point energy" devices, perpetual motion machines, and other wonders such as "hydrinos" have found friends in the United States Senate. At least one Nobel Laureate in physics has come to their aid. The Web has been a powerful organizing force as well. Some organizations, including my own Department and the Patent Office have fought back with success, but always at great cost in time and energy. Pseudophysicists and their friends have money, influence, and sometimes clout. They have not hesitated to use threats, personal attacks, and the full machinery by which government is made accountable to the public to strike at those who expose technical fraud. Encounters with pseudophysicists are like grabbing a hot wire: after the first contact it is hard to get free, and it can inflict serious injury. But you, and I, and all our colleagues in the APS must do what we can to ensure that U.S. policy is not manipulated by pseudoscience, to make certain that taxpayer money is not wasted on nonesense, and to restore public confidence in real science. This will take efforts at public education, work, and as I have learned in the last year not a little bit of courage. APS and FPS should be in the thick of the battle. This talk is an account of a year in the fray. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 12:04:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06904; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:00:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:00:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313145945.007a2910 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:59:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Zimmerman talk at upcoming APS meeting In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313142857.007a2b10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"H_LcW1.0.jh1.rZKpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I forgot to mention this is from: http://positron.aps.org/meet/APR00/baps/abs/S2710001.html . . . and the upcoming meeting will be in Long Beach, California. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 12:04:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06130; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:58:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:58:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313145710.0079f850 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:57:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000413125605.0124423c earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313130302.0079a180 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000313122707.0079c800 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000413103334.01250854 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000313110619.0079ba10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Hp5SR1.0.dV1.MXKpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >They make heat exchangers. Sure they understand temperature and heat >properly but so does every other physicist. The challenges in calorimetry >lie in the reduction of systematic errors to tolerable levels. I don't see >any aspect of their business that would promote the kind of analytical >mentality required for that. Calorimetry is at the heart of their business. They have to know how much heat is being removed from the machinery under different conditions. I think the technical papers on the web site show that they know an awful lot about this subject. In any case, in these experiments you have to measure 50 watts excess with confidence. This is not rocket science. It does not require special "analytical mentality." Any scientist living after 1860 could do the job, and these people seem particularly well qualified. Having said that, let me reiterate that I cannot imagine why they ran such sloppy tests in a warehouse! Scott Little, or I, or any member of this forum could have suggested major improvements to these first-round tests, such as running a blank or recording more than one data point per day -- for crying out loud! (I heard later that they measured many times a day, but only recorded once.) >I'm not saying they made bad calorimetric measurements. They may have been >wonderfully accurate. I just don't see any supporting evidence for that yet. What difference would it make whether they were wonderfully accurate or as sloppy as a person can be? The excess was 50 watts, the excess Delta T was 8 deg C. That is a huge excess heat flux! Unless you can imagine some way there was a mistake, I do not see how you can deny this was solid supporting evidence. Those graphs from Ernst are all the "supporting evidence" you need, as brief and crude as it is. I do not see much room for mistakes. The tank was well stirred. All of the fundamental requirements for reasonable calorimetry were met, except that in the tests described in the paper, the thermal mass was huge. It must have taken a long time for it to settle at one temperature. The later tests shown in the video employed much smaller cells. I suppose that was manageable, unless those blue cells were especially well insulated. All in all, the first round Thermocore experiments remind me of the infamous CETI 1-liter per minute flow calorimeter. There were a half-assed demo made to look unconvincing, yet which are undeniable. (I recently learned that CETI actually went out of their way to make that demo look bad, as part of their coitus interruptus business strategy. That is what suspected when I saw it. You should have heard me ranting and raving to Chris Tinsley that night!) I sure hope the rumors are true and the second-round tests are at the level you would expect from a professional engineering firm like Thermacore, but I have no direct evidence or details -- just second hand reports from people who have seen them. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 12:40:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20044; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:36:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:36:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313153527.0079ae90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:35:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313131832.007eda40 world.std.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"f7fOo3.0.2v4.H5Lpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Also, given that Jed prefers the calibration-free, error-prone, >amplifying, vertical-directed flow calorimetry, it is laughable >he calls isoperibolic work "error-prone". I certainly do believe in flow calorimetry, but I always, always, ALWAYS calibrate, and so does CETI and Cravens. It is ironic that Swartz would invent this imaginary "fault" and then accuse me of it. He is the one who refuses to run simple baseline tests and calibrations. He makes absurd claims about vertical versus horizontal calorimetry, yet he has never done a simple experiment to test them. All he has to do is turn a flow calorimeter on its side, and bingo, an hour later he will see that he has wasted years on this delusion. > On the contrary, authors do, on occasion, cite unpublished work. > Hope that clarifies. Yeah, I guess they do. No one can verify, follow up on, or learn from these secret reference, but some scientists do revel in secrecy and making things obscure. It sort of like publishing a cross-word puzzle with meaningless clues to words that do not fit. This message may elicit another barrage of nonsense about vertical-flow calorimetry, a subject in which Swartz stands as the undisputed world expert. The world's only expert in fact; all others say the subject does not exist. Since I do not particularly want read this upcoming . . . um . . . information, I will re-enable the switch here: Filters ON! Shields UP! Incoming bogey starboard quarter! ZZZAP! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 13:11:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29435; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:02:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:02:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313160106.007a31f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:01:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000413130920.0124a684 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313131832.007eda40 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"q1UIq2.0.cB7.JTLpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >It can provide accurate results...but it can also produce large errors. >For example, Storms has shown how it can produce false positive excess heat >results when a layer of bubbles collects on the cell wall (during >electrolysis) and significantly reduces the conductivity of the walls from >that value that was in effect during Joule heater calibration. Come now, Scott. Be quantitative. How big were Storms' errors? Could they have produced a false, 8 deg C Delta T in large-scale cell? The Ernst diagrams (from the 1992 MIT lecture) show that Thermacore tank was stirred. Are you saying these bubbles would settle on the walls in a stirred tank? I do not think the Storms finding is applicable to such a large cell, with such a high temperature difference. You said "for example . . ." but your example is not a bit applicable. I suspect it may be 2 or 3 orders of magnitude too small. Do you know of an example problem with this size cell? Did you ever see a false 8 deg C signal? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 13:27:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07610; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:25:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:25:02 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330DF mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mills paper in Fusion Technology Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:28:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"HrmOn2.0.qs1.joLpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Also, as Steven Florek points out, they >apparently did not do the obvious 'blank' experiments. Maybe I did not write clearly--Mills *did* have control experiments and I believe that Thermacore did too. Subsequent replication attempts that I have seen did not feature such controls, and because of this they got bogged down with all these calorimetry adjustment minutia on just one cell. These problems are largely avoided when you use a control cell because then calorimetry errors apply to both cells and you are just left with a temperature difference (if any). >- Jed Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 13:44:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14309; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:40:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:40:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313163935.007a6790 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:39:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330DF mailserver.omnikron .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TQ4f81.0.VV3.K1Mpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florek, Steven wrote: >Maybe I did not write clearly--Mills *did* have control experiments and I >believe that Thermacore did too. I don't *think* so, but all I have to go on are copies of the Ernst viewgraphs, which he handed out during the 1992 lecture. I should review the Mills papers, but as I recall they do not cover the Thermacore work. The Ernst viewgraphs do not describe a blank electrochemical cell. There is a joule heater calibration, of course. One sheet shows "Electrolyte Cell and Reference," and a cell labeled "Room Temprature Reference." I think it is an identical bucket filled with water only, with a stirrer, which is placed next to the cell. There is also a discussion of recombination. They measured the water loss and determined there was no significant recombination, but even if there had been, it would not explain the excess. As far as I know, Thermacore has never publicly described the later experiments with smaller cells, gas loading cells, and so on. Subsequent replication attempts that I >have seen did not feature such controls, and because of this they got bogged >down with all these calorimetry adjustment minutia on just one cell. These >problems are largely avoided when you use a control cell because then >calorimetry errors apply to both cells and you are just left with a >temperature difference (if any). Good point. As Storms says, we should do comparative, not absolute, calorimetry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 14:22:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30961; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:19:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:19:33 -0800 Message-ID: <38CD6A07.7C2C1D67 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:22:27 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology References: <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> <3.0.1.32.20000413130920.0124a684@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_PtAs.0.cZ7.qbMpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 01:18 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > >>Simple open-air > >>isoperibolic is indeed error-prone, > > >Although you minimize the need for controls, when done correctly, > >it is not-error prone. > > It can provide accurate results...but it can also produce large errors. > For example, Storms has shown how it can produce false positive excess heat > results when a layer of bubbles collects on the cell wall (during > electrolysis) and significantly reduces the conductivity of the walls from > that value that was in effect during Joule heater calibration. Scott, for the sake of accuracy, I do not believe bubbles on the surface are a source of error. Such attached bubbles do not occur. On the other hand, a heater and electrolysis produce different effects because they produce different temperature gradients within the liquid, even when stirred. Stirring can also introduce error because of changes in the stagnate layer at the surface. However, these problems only exist in an isoperibolic calorimeter which uses the cell wall as the thermal barrier and when attempts are made to measure the temperature of the wall using the temperature of the fluid. All other designs do not suffer from these problems. I might add, that the more I use and study calorimetry, the more ways became apparent to screw-up. This does not mean I distrust everybody, only that certain precautions are essential and, if not used, will result in potential error of unknown magnitude. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 14:39:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05462; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:37:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:37:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313173630.0079f100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:36:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <38CD6A07.7C2C1D67 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> <3.0.1.32.20000413130920.0124a684 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZIjMJ1.0.rK1.hsMpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >This does not mean I distrust everybody, only that >certain precautions are essential and, if not used, will result in potential >error of unknown magnitude. Unknown, but surely limited! Ernst's calibration curves are reasonably straight, after all. There are limits to the size of any potential error, and the limits change at different power levels. Bubbles on the wall are a serious problem at a fraction of a watt, but as far as I know they vanish into the noise when you work with 20 to 120 watts. Different types of errors become significant at different power levels and scales. As far as I know, nothing can cause a 50 watt error in the range of 20 to 120 watts, in an air cooled calorimeter with this calibration constant. The only thing I can imagine would violent and rapid changes in the ambient temperature of ~8 deg C which are not recorded for some reason. There may be some other potential artifact with this system, but I do not know of it. I have never done any experiments with such a large system so I do not feel all that confident. I recall Scott Little did take a shot at this experiment, with the 10 gallon naglene tank. John Logajan did. I do not recall that he reported any huge, drop dead artifacts . . . Anyway, this topic should be labeled "Thermacore's 1992 data" not "Mills paper in Fusion Technology." Shuffling through the new paper here . . . I do not see anything about calorimetry. This paper is about novel hydrogen compounds. They only mentioned the excess heat in passing. A pity, but their earlier papers did cover calorimetry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 14:44:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07930; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:43:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:43:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313174228.007a1100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:42:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, Storms2@ix.netcom.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313173630.0079f100 pop.mindspring.com> References: <38CD6A07.7C2C1D67 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> <3.0.1.32.20000413130920.0124a684 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QgnMg1.0.qx1.FyMpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >and the limits change at different power levels. Bubbles on the wall are a >serious problem at a fraction of a watt, but as far as I know they vanish >into the noise when you work with 20 to 120 watts. Sorry, I meant stagnant, unstirred layers of water near the wall, not bubbles. Ed is trying to set the record straight and Scott and I keep confusing the issue. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 16:11:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07288; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:01:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:01:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313185816.00796e50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:58:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 1992 Thermacore calorimetry & ambient temp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3dCnH2.0.on1.A5Opu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I stated earlier that sudden changes in ambient temperature might have affected the Thermacore calorimetry described by Ernst. I reviewed the diagrams, and I think I got that wrong. I think they compare the cell temperature to the "reference cell," not to the ambient air temperature directly. Both the cell and the ambient cell have a huge thermal mass and will not be affected by transient changes in ambient temperature. Still, you wonder what possessed them to run this test in a warehouse! All in all, to be fair to Scott Little, I should have said earlier: 1. Thermacore appears to have tons of relevant expertise and credibility; 2. I am sure they are able to do calorimetry as well as he or anyone could; 3. I have heard through the grapevine they tightened up; 4. Apparently they are still cranking away at it, so they must believe in the results. Still, I agree this first test was lackadaisical. Maybe we should have more faith in their expertise. If they figure it can be done with this laid back method, in ambient air, recording once a day, maybe they know that an 8 deg C temperature difference is too big to argue with no matter how you cut it, and there is no need for more elaborate calorimetry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 18:48:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31518; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:46:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:46:14 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38CDB635.FC272D4 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:47:01 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: project underway References: <20000312165411093.AAA234 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"cxMWW.0.Mi7.rVQpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I can't find somehthing at the BLP web site which I would like to know: Would someone give me a list of the companies which have invested in BLP? Thanks, Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 18:56:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02175; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:54:22 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <46.2ae4b5c.25ff03b7 aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:53:43 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Preliminary K Run To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"a9Lhc.0.qX.TdQpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Here is a VERY PRELIMINARY result of H2 with K run I did today. Run was very difficult to get started at the planned 20 torr fill. Tube current over 100 mA and voltage way down at ~100 VDC. Mineral oil residue is a real pain. That's why 30 minutes into the run I dropped the fill pressure down to ~1 torr trying to get the current down. At the time I decided to lower the fill pressure the Tc was 286.7 and steady which is much lower than the H2 calibration temperature of ~340 deg C. After 30 minutes running at a fill of 1.10 (yes, one point one) torr, temperature was 392.1 at a nice 20 watt input. (V=400 A=0.051) This is _much_ higher than I have ever seen during the H2 calibrations with the present tube design and new power controller. Another note; if the fill was increased beyond 2.0 torr, the temperature began to fall, pull back down to 1 torr, temperature rises again. I did this several times to make sure what I saw was actually happening. After it cools down (I just now shut down) I will disassemble the tube and try to see the reason behind the high current draw at the beginning of the run. (probably the mineral oil cooking off, I just got to order some argon packed K) Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 13 20:22:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA29566; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:16:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:16:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000313231034.007fb960 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:10:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000313153527.0079ae90 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313131832.007eda40 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pK5RT2.0.uD7.uqRpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:35 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> Also, given that Jed prefers the calibration-free, error-prone, >>amplifying, vertical-directed flow calorimetry, it is laughable >>he calls isoperibolic work "error-prone". > >I certainly do believe in flow calorimetry, but I always, always, ALWAYS >calibrate, and so does CETI and Cravens. > >It is ironic that Swartz would invent this imaginary "fault" and then >accuse me of it. He is the one who refuses to run simple baseline tests and >calibrations. He makes absurd claims about vertical versus horizontal >calorimetry, yet he has never done a simple experiment to test them. All he >has to do is turn a flow calorimeter on its side, and bingo, an hour later >he will see that he has wasted years on this delusion. ROTFLOL. Jed it good to hear you retract your comments about controls in calorimetry. But it is noted that you twisted what was said, "vertical-directed flow calorimetry" to "vertical versus horizontal calorimetry". And you might improve your pseudo-remote-viewing. ========================================= >> On the contrary, authors do, on occasion, cite unpublished work. >> Hope that clarifies. > >Yeah, I guess they do. No one can verify, follow up on, or learn from these >secret reference, but some scientists do revel in secrecy and making things >obscure. It sort of like publishing a cross-word puzzle with meaningless >clues to words that do not fit. > >This message may elicit another barrage of nonsense about vertical-flow >calorimetry, a subject in which Swartz stands as the undisputed world >expert. The world's only expert in fact; all others say the subject does >not exist. Since I do not particularly want read this upcoming . . . um . . >. information, I will re-enable the switch here: Filters ON! >Shields UP! Incoming bogey starboard quarter! ZZZAP! > >- Jed LOL. Good thing no coffee was around. The issues were Bernard instability and Jed's low-flow experiment using an non-constant flow pump, in which he thought if he disconnected the resistance to flow that he could get an accurate assessment of the flow with the tubing in place (and with the pump against the higher resistance). Those interested in his other errors are invited to look up Mitchell Jones' comments, and also see the origin of this sort of error, Swartz, M, "Improved Calculations Involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221 (1996) and Swartz, M, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996), respectively [ Also other q/c issues he often neglects at http://world.std.com/~mica/jetrefs.html#q/c and and Swartz, M, "Noise Measurement in cold fusion systems", Journal of New Energy, 2, 2, 56-61 (1997).] Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 00:36:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA27835; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:30:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:30:11 -0800 Message-ID: <20000314082950.17346.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:29:50 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Voltage without pressure To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"MqchN2.0.jo6.EYVpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > yes, that is the definition. > But as there is no difference in the electrical pressure of the situation I > explained there is no voltage. And no voltage no electrical energy > supposedly. Not necessarily. That is why I told you about EMF. > > Yes, I know about this type of electrical field, but it does not explain my > case. > > It does not matter what induces the current. What if you had a rotating > ring > which was suddenly stopped you might expect a current for a small fraction > of a > time to flow through the ring. This is an effect of electron inertia. It is a very small effect unless you go to very high frequencies and/or a small number of charge carriers. In metallic conductors you do not see this effect until ultraviolet frequencies. For such an effect in a metal ring at the kinds of accelerations one can achieve mechanically, I do not thnk one could build a detector sensitive enough to see it. > How the current is induced is not the important part. the important part is > explaining the other electrical factor, flow of electrons past a point in > the > wire over one second. and the speed or energy or something in each of those > electrons which might depend on the resistance. > So what if we have a super conducting ring? Do we say there is no energy in > the > current? You seem to be thinking about the kinetic energy of the electrons or other charge carriers. This is a very small effect in ordinary conductors. It gets important only when electrons have to move rapidly, e.g. when a few electrons have to carry a large current. In metals the electron drift speed is low, on the order of cm/sec, and kinetic energy is very, very small. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 00:37:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA06931; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:36:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:36:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000314083636.25645.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:36:36 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Calibrations To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"1vABQ.0.3i1.beVpu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The length of the inter-electrode gap has a considerable effect on the voltage needed to initiate an electrical breakdown, but even this is not a monotonic dependence. The gap has a relatively weak effect on the discharge voltage once running. The constituents of the discharge (gas, cathode surface composition) have a stronger effect. The cathode temperature is also important, especially if it gets hot enough to emit thermionically. This seems to have happened in Vince's run where the cathode got very hot and the discharge voltage decreased. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 06:11:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28430; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:06:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:06:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:05:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mills lawsuit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DsdJj3.0.8y6.KTapu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde writes: If you're trying to start a business and raise capital and someone accuses you of a crime like fraud which you believe you have not committed, I think you have every right, including the moral right, to sue. Under normal circumstances, if you were starting a conventional business to sell shoes or web page design, I would agree. But everyone knows that most scientists think Mills is a crazy a fraud. He must know that 99.999% of scientists oppose him. Even if he succeeds in suing this first batch of 10 or 20 scientists, there will 20 more after that, and 20 more, and millions behind them. He may have a moral right to sue these people, but in the real world I think this strategy is hopeless. Even if by some miracle he wins, he will generate more bad publicity and angry opposition than he quashes. He should know that! He has been dealing with mainstream scientists for years. He should learn from history. Thousands of controversial discoveries and inventions have prevailed against mainstream opposition and accusations of fraud, but as far as I know, there is not a single example of one that prevailed in court. Does Mills have a moral right to waste his investor's capital on a business strategy that cannot succeed? Does he have the right to waste his own time in useless, petty distractions when investors are waiting for him to launch a company? I do not think so. The Catholic church declared that a person has the moral right to kill in war only if his side has some chance of winning. Along the same lines, a person should sue only if there is some likelihood he will win. Otherwise he is wasting money on lawyers, and feeding his ego at the expense of his investors. But the rest I agree with too - do the demos first. If he did the demos, the lawsuit would no longer be needed. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 07:11:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20704; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:09:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:09:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38CE5643.B3F6119E eskimo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:09:55 -0800 From: Robert Brady X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CB4DE25BC05D98AF831194E0" Resent-Message-ID: <"56IUY1.0.O35.3Pbpu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CB4DE25BC05D98AF831194E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of comments: Some of the folks P. T. Barnum was talking about were investors who have little idea what they are investing in. If, of course, the investors have been misled they get to sue whoever has misled them. If not, they are at risk of losing all. The real business of BL may not have anything to do with science. Suits may be their real business. Note that the real business of McDonalds is real estate, not hamburgs as you might think. Bob Brady > Rick Monteverde writes: > > If you're trying to start a business and raise capital and > someone accuses you of a crime like fraud which you believe you > have not committed, I think you have every right, including the > moral right, to sue. > > Under normal circumstances, if you were starting a conventional business to > sell shoes or web page design, I would agree. But everyone knows that most > scientists think Mills is a crazy a fraud. He must know that 99.999% of > scientists oppose him. Even if he succeeds in suing this first batch of 10 > or 20 scientists, there will 20 more after that, and 20 more, and millions > behind them. He may have a moral right to sue these people, but in the real > world I think this strategy is hopeless. Even if by some miracle he wins, > he will generate more bad publicity and angry opposition than he quashes. > He should know that! He has been dealing with mainstream scientists for > years. He should learn from history. Thousands of controversial discoveries > and inventions have prevailed against mainstream opposition and accusations > of fraud, but as far as I know, there is not a single example of one that > prevailed in court. > > Does Mills have a moral right to waste his investor's capital on a business > strategy that cannot succeed? Does he have the right to waste his own time > in useless, petty distractions when investors are waiting for him to launch > a company? I do not think so. The Catholic church declared that a person > has the moral right to kill in war only if his side has some chance of > winning. Along the same lines, a person should sue only if there is some > likelihood he will win. Otherwise he is wasting money on lawyers, and > feeding his ego at the expense of his investors. > > But the rest I agree with too - do the demos first. > > If he did the demos, the lawsuit would no longer be needed. > > - Jed --------------CB4DE25BC05D98AF831194E0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="rebrady.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Robert Brady Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rebrady.vcf" begin:vcard n:Brady;Bob x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.eskimo.com/~rebrady adr:;;;1304 251st Avenue SE;Sammamish, WA;98029; version:2.1 email;internet:rebrady eskimo.com x-mozilla-cpt:;-29120 fn:Bob Brady end:vcard --------------CB4DE25BC05D98AF831194E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 07:11:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17009; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:09:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:09:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:10:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Uyhxo2.0.h94.YObpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An exchange between Jed and Rick: > Rick Monteverde writes: > > If you're trying to start a business and raise capital and > someone accuses you of a crime like fraud which you believe you > have not committed, I think you have every right, including the > moral right, to sue. > > Under normal circumstances, if you were starting a conventional business to > sell shoes or web page design, I would agree. But everyone knows that most > scientists think Mills is a crazy a fraud. He must know that 99.999% of > scientists oppose him. Even if he succeeds in suing this first batch of 10 > or 20 scientists, there will 20 more after that, and 20 more, and millions > behind them. He may have a moral right to sue these people, but in the real > world I think this strategy is hopeless. Even if by some miracle he wins, > he will generate more bad publicity and angry opposition than he quashes. > He should know that! He has been dealing with mainstream scientists for > years. He should learn from history. Thousands of controversial discoveries > and inventions have prevailed against mainstream opposition and accusations > of fraud, but as far as I know, there is not a single example of one that > prevailed in court. > > Does Mills have a moral right to waste his investor's capital on a business > strategy that cannot succeed? Does he have the right to waste his own time > in useless, petty distractions when investors are waiting for him to launch > a company? I do not think so. The Catholic church declared that a person > has the moral right to kill in war only if his side has some chance of > winning. Along the same lines, a person should sue only if there is some > likelihood he will win. Otherwise he is wasting money on lawyers, and > feeding his ego at the expense of his investors. > > > But the rest I agree with too - do the demos first. > > If he did the demos, the lawsuit would no longer be needed. Jed misses a point here. Mills basically doesn't care what critics think. He cares what his potential customers think and the influence of "authorities" on the decisions of CEOs about to sign license agreements. This is why he has avoided association with the CF camp this past decade. If "scientists" are slamming him as a fraud because he theories are not mainstream, then he might well take them to court where they will have to defend their statements -- possibly in the face of demonstrations and the like. If I'm a CEO about to license and Mills hasn't the guts and confidence to challenge his critics, then I might not want to sign on. Jed carries on about "demonstrations", totally missing the point that Mills has been distributing samples of his hydrino hydrides to qualified labs for months now, reaching as far as South Africa. There is no more convincing "demonstration" than a sample of a chemical in you own hands which you can test and determine for yourself that it has abnormal characteristics which do not fit into any ordinary chemistry and cannot be manufactured by normal processes, but which are consistent with Mill's theories. You can build valuable niche products that way, getting cash flow. You build a hydrino hydride reactor for a large scale chemical customer, and lo, it generates excess energy you can sell to the power grid. This is market bootstrapping in the best Rothwellian sense, and I'm surprised Jed (and others critics) have overlooked it. Yet Mills states it plain as day. The carping of critics simply becomes irrelevant, and they have to be pushed aside. These critics want to push Mills aside because he threatens their professional positions, many at the public feeding trough, as has been done for a decade with CF. Besides, Mills has had his tests done in independent labs, he has published details, a website, a big book. He has given papers before professional societies. He has a patent. The endorsements of vortex members is simply irrelevant to this enterprise. Some correspondents here on vortex have accused Mills of greed. I have not seen any notable contributions from these quarters. The finger of greed points all ways, including to those who want the benefits of another's enterprise without any contribution to it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 07:44:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31052; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:42:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:42:45 -0800 Message-ID: <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1@mikecarr> Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:40:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"qKNMp3.0.3b7.ptbpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excellent points, Mike! The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man -- George Bernard Shaw Shaw might agree that it is pointless to try to convince the world through the courts, but failing to fight is a strong statement. Even if he loses a case, he will be able to present a lot of evidence (assuming a reasonable presiding judge). We must face that fact that lawyers will prosper no matter what scientists and engineers may be able to do with technology. Normally, I say avoid all lawsuits at almost all cost, but there is a time for it. It all depends on if Mills is ready. Jed cannot know the outcome of a suit. It would be nice if the demo route works out, and it may, which would use grass roots capitalism to overcome established scientific inertia. But, we cannot know exactly what Mills is facing, or how strong his case is. Ed Wall Jed wrote: > > If he did the demos, the lawsuit would no longer be needed. Mike Carrell wrote: > > Jed misses a point here. Mills basically doesn't care what critics think. He > cares what his potential customers think and the influence of "authorities" > on the decisions of CEOs about to sign license agreements. This is why he > has avoided association with the CF camp this past decade. If "scientists" > are slamming him as a fraud because he theories are not mainstream, then he > might well take them to court where they will have to defend their > statements -- possibly in the face of demonstrations and the like. If I'm a > CEO about to license and Mills hasn't the guts and confidence to challenge > his critics, then I might not want to sign on. > > Jed carries on about "demonstrations", totally missing the point that Mills > has been distributing samples of his hydrino hydrides to qualified labs for > months now, reaching as far as South Africa. There is no more convincing > "demonstration" than a sample of a chemical in you own hands which you can > test and determine for yourself that it has abnormal characteristics which > do not fit into any ordinary chemistry and cannot be manufactured by normal > processes, but which are consistent with Mill's theories. You can build > valuable niche products that way, getting cash flow. You build a hydrino > hydride reactor for a large scale chemical customer, and lo, it generates > excess energy you can sell to the power grid. This is market bootstrapping > in the best Rothwellian sense, and I'm surprised Jed (and others critics) > have overlooked it. Yet Mills states it plain as day. The carping of critics > simply becomes irrelevant, and they have to be pushed aside. These critics > want to push Mills aside because he threatens their professional positions, > many at the public feeding trough, as has been done for a decade with CF. > > Besides, Mills has had his tests done in independent labs, he has published > details, a website, a big book. He has given papers before professional > societies. He has a patent. The endorsements of vortex members is simply > irrelevant to this enterprise. > > Some correspondents here on vortex have accused Mills of greed. I have not > seen any notable contributions from these quarters. The finger of greed > points all ways, including to those who want the benefits of another's > enterprise without any contribution to it. > > Mike Carrell > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 09:12:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29636; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:09:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:09:48 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:07:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Resent-Message-ID: <"fQVvT1.0.vE7.N9dpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Excellent points, Mike! > >The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one >persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress >depends on the unreasonable man -- George Bernard Shaw > >Shaw might agree that it is pointless to try to convince the world through >the courts, but failing to fight is a strong statement. Even if he loses a >case, he will be able to present a lot of evidence (assuming a reasonable >presiding judge). We must face that fact that lawyers will prosper no >matter what scientists and engineers may be able to do with technology. >Normally, I say avoid all lawsuits at almost all cost, but there is a time >for it. It all depends on if Mills is ready. > >Jed cannot know the outcome of a suit. It would be nice if the demo route >works out, and it may, which would use grass roots capitalism to overcome >established scientific inertia. But, we cannot know exactly what Mills is >facing, or how strong his case is. > >Ed Wall ***{In my opinion, Jed's most likely motivation for arguing that Mills shouldn't sue those who have insinuated that he is a fraud is simply that Jed, himself, has frequently insinuated that Mills is a fraud! Thus if Mills sues such people, he might very well decide to sue Jed! :-) --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 09:33:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05560; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:30:05 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:35:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex cc: Schnurer Subject: Help for Child and Science Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sVHEa1.0.oM1.SSdpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Can anyone please tell me the name of a manufacturer and contact information who makes A Keyboard that can be used with IBM clone that is SMALL ... physically small key size and layout for a child with very short fingers. Please John Herman Schnurer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 10:02:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12496; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:58:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:58:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314125706.0079f4a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:57:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aULUI3.0.833.ssdpu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: Jed misses a point here. Mills basically doesn't care what critics think. He cares what his potential customers think and the influence of "authorities" on the decisions of CEOs about to sign license agreements. He says that, but I think he cares more than he admits. He has a large ego and he often talks about his standing in the Big Picture of Science. His paean to himself in the CBC documentary was excruciating. My point is, however, if he wants to counter the influence of "authorities," he must pick a strategy that has a chance of success. Given the massed opposition and the weight of authority against him, the courtroom is the last place he can win. The only standard admissible in the courtroom is that of conventional authority. Legal standards are based upon written precedents and the weight of opinion of the established authorities. There are no absolute standards in law, only tradition. Judges and juries are not supposed to invent new standards, but only apply existing, accepted, conservative ones. By all conventional standards Mills is dead wrong. He knows that! Ask any physicist. You can find ten-thousand distinguished expert witnesses anxious testify against Mills. The APS would vote unanimously against him. The major science publication and journal would denounce him for attacking distinguished scientists and interfering in academic freedom, even if he was factually and morally right. No important scientist will take the stand to testify in his favor. Even if an important scientist secretly sympathized with Mills, he would be committing career suicide if he said one word in public or testified in his favor. If "scientists" are slamming him as a fraud because he theories are not mainstream, then he might well take them to court where they will have to defend their statements . . . He must lose. This is like the Polish cavalry attacking tanks with swords. In the courtroom, the deck is stacked against him; all traditions & legal and social mechanisms work against him. In the marketplace, everything can be made to work in his favor -- if he is a clever businessman. The first rule of business or war is to attack the enemy where he is weak, not where he is strong. All ancient and modern books on strategy describe this, including some of the first books ever written in China, India, Egypt . . . such as Sun Tzu, "On The Art of War," 500 BC: "Draw [your enemies] in with prospect of gain, take them by confusion. When they are fulfilled, be prepared against them; when they are strong, avoid them. . . . You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended." Only a fool would ignore this kind of fundamental strategy. . . . possibly in the face of demonstrations and the like. Why have the court case if the demonstrations can be done?!? The demonstrations alone will win out. In every previous example in history, demonstrations have won in the end. Why should they fail this time? If I'm a CEO about to license and Mills hasn't the guts and confidence to challenge his critics, then I might not want to sign on. It isn't a matter of guts and confidence! The Polish cavalry in WWII had loads of guts and confidence, but they picked a strategy with no chance of success. Is Mills has so much confidence, why doesn't he challenge his opponents in the marketplace, as other entrepreneurs have done? Jed carries on about "demonstrations", totally missing the point that Mills has been distributing samples of his hydrino hydrides to qualified labs for months now, reaching as far as South Africa. If hydrino hydrides had immediate commercial value, this would make sense. As far as I know, a test tube of hydrides may have future potential, but you cannot sell it today. Energy, on the other hand, is the most valuable commodity on earth. When you explain the product correctly and make a convincing sales pitch, most industrial corporations will grasp the value of a heat generating device, even if it is an unwieldy and impractical prototype. Everyone wants energy. Nobody is interested in hydrides. No one I have talked to, anyway. This may not be rational. In the long view of history people might be overlooking a potential gold mine, but so what? You have to put yourself in the mind of your customer and show him what he wants to see. There is no more convincing "demonstration" than a sample of a chemical in you own hands which you can test and determine for yourself that it has abnormal characteristics which do not fit into any ordinary chemistry and cannot be manufactured by normal processes . . . Who cares about that stuff?!? Who gives a damn? Businessmen and investors are Philistines. They are like me, frankly. I do not give two hoots about abnormal characteristics or revolutionary physics, and I have more intellectual curiosity than your average businessmen or investor. Many times in history people have demonstrated revolutionary new products to the general public and to the scientific community, and the response has been a gigantic yawn. The Wright brothers flew in front of the public and Dayton for three years and few people bothered to look. People thought it was a balloon. A British amateur built the first radiotelescope in 1945 and began revolutionizing astronomy, while the head of the Mount Wilson-Palomar Observatories was saying, "I don't think radio waves are ever going to tell us anything about astronomy. I just do not think there's anything to do. The waves are too long. . . . They are not directional, they can't really tell us anything." (Townes, p. 42.) If history teaches anything, it is that a revolutionary product without a good sales strategy will fail. The more revolutionary it is, the harder it will be to sell at first. Once you break down initial sales resistance, everyone will start yelling about how wonderful this new gadget is and what a genius you are, but at first they avoid you like the plague. You build a hydrino hydride reactor for a large scale chemical customer, and lo, it generates excess energy you can sell to the power grid. It is not necessary to build a large scale device. If Mills could deliver a few dozen 10 watt reactors to me, in three months I would have every major industrial corporation in the world banging on his front door, pushing wads of cash through the mail slot, demanding a research contract. It would not take a marketing genius. After you break down initial sales resistance, this product is so great it would walk off the shelf by itself. I could sell it. Any fool who has ever sold ice cream & soda pop on a hot day or $5 knock-off music CDs on Fifth Avenue could sell it. If Mills wants to sell, he should go to the store or library, get a couple of books about marketing and learn the basics, such as: don't alienate your customers, be nice, smile, show the customer what's in it for him, put your best foot forward, organize your presentations, don't make grammatical mistakes in your advertisements (see first sentence in the Mills ad), and never attack your opponents where they are strongest -- like in court. This is not a profound subject. It does not take a PhD from Harvard Business School. So far, Mills, Correa, CETI, Fleischmann and others in this field has made every idiotic mistake they warn against in the textbooks. Their sales pitches make me cringe. These people may be good at science but they know from nothing how to make a buck. If they succeed despite their mistakes, they will be like the British Military commanders of WWI, who ignored the rules of war, attacked the strong points, needlessly sacrificed millions of lives, wasted three years, and finally won by brute force attrition. Yes, you can do it that way, but why not use your brain and learn from history instead? This is market bootstrapping in the best Rothwellian sense . . . If he is bootstrapping, I am pleased. I do not know his detailed plans. So far, I have seen him send samples of chemicals to laboratories, and file lawsuits. Neither of those activities seems likely to lead to commercial success. Besides, Mills has had his tests done in independent labs, he has published details, a website, a big book. He has given papers before professional societies. He has a patent. And has he earned one dollar of profit???? Has he sold one machine to one customer? That would impress me more than his books and papers and patents. Fie on books! To hell with papers! Show me green paper: Federal Reserve notes. The purpose of business is profit. The only meaningful yardstick of success is profit. It is the reason you incorporate, sell stock, employ people, buy buildings, or put on your pants and go in to work in the morning. A business may be a labor of love, or service to the community, but first it must be profitable. Mills could have earned hundreds of millions, maybe billions by now if he had only *sold goods on the market*, instead of screwing around establishing secret "strategic alliances, weird pricing and promotional schemes" (Peterson) That is navel gazing, not business. I have no respect for a man who sits on a potential fortune waiting for opportune market conditions, or planning when he should be acting. I despise inaction and indecision. There is no such thing as the opportune moment. It is like love in the springtime: Never wait. Never hesitate. Reach out, go for it, ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. The best time is NOW; the best one is the one you have NOW. If the machine has value (and the Mills machines circa 1992 did have value!) you can always find a customer. The endorsements of vortex members is simply irrelevant to this enterprise. Quite right. I was not suggesting that my endorsements should carry any weight, but only that Mills should pay attention to the ABCs of business. Readers here can decide for themselves whether it is a good idea to challenge the scientific establishment in court. Some correspondents here on vortex have accused Mills of greed. I have not seen any notable contributions from these quarters. The finger of greed points all ways, including to those who want the benefits of another's enterprise without any contribution to it. I would not accuse him of greed, but rather praise him for it. A corporate CEO must be greedy and aggressive. As long as his greed does not blind him to his own best interests and his responsibilities to stockholders, employees and the public, it is a fine thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 10:15:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24195; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:13:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:13:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:12:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7J_zu1.0.yv5.c5epu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: >Shaw might agree that it is pointless to try to convince the world through >the courts, but failing to fight is a strong statement. This is a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding. No one, least of all me, is suggesting he should not fight. I say he should fight a battle he can win, on grounds where he has the advantage, instead of challenging his opponents where they have all the advantages of tradition, history and weight of authority. >Even if he loses a >case, he will be able to present a lot of evidence (assuming a reasonable >presiding judge). And the opposition will have nothing to present? No textbooks? No authoritative experts from the APS? Does anyone seriously believe that Mills can overthrow the last eighty years of established physics in a courtroom?!? The idea is pure insanity. >We must face that fact that lawyers will prosper no >matter what scientists and engineers may be able to do with technology. With this strategy only the lawyers will prosper. >Jed cannot know the outcome of a suit. No one can predict the future with absolute assurance, but if I know anything about the ways of society, business, courts, history, the APS and public opinion, I can predict this suit will lose. Even if he won by a miracle, it would only cause the establishment to vilify Mills even more. That is what happened when Pons and Fleischmann won the initial round of their lawsuit in Italy. Their eventual loss was a foregone conclusion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 10:55:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07044; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:52:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:52:42 -0800 Message-ID: <38CE8B48.D780253E bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:56:08 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Help for Child and Science References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"o4KzK1.0.xj1.vfepu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > Dear Folks, > > Can anyone please tell me the name of a manufacturer and contact > information who makes > A Keyboard that can be used with IBM clone that is > SMALL ... physically small key size and layout for a child with > very short fingers. You want the "Little Fingers Keyboard" from Data Desk Technologies: http://www.datadesktech.com/products.htm You can get it from MicroWarehouse at 1-800-397-8508 for about $80.00 including a trackball mouse. MSRP is $99.00 Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 11:12:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15440; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:08:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:08:41 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330E4 mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mills lawsuit Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:11:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"WFm8g.0.An3.uuepu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'd just like to point out that no lawsuit has actually been filed. The lawyers have merely sent letters asking these physicists who have been publicly calling Mills a charlatan to stop. My original post's title ("Mills suing detractors?") was misleading in that regard. I think Mills' thinking is succinctly expressed in a Schopenhauer quote from his book: "All truth goes through three phases: First it is ridiculed, then it is violently opposed, and finally it is accepted as self-evident." I think that Mills' thinks that he has moved into the "violent opposition" stage and is going to take action to defend himself and BLP as they move towards IPO. There is a legal difference between publicly saying Mills is wrong/a crank/doesn't have convincing experimental evidence/has mathematical inconsistencies/is disproven by experiment and publicly saying Mills is a fraud/a fabricator/dishonest/looking for suckers. The former is an academic opinion protected by free speech; the latter can be libelous when wielded without anything to back it up (or worse, when you know it to be false). Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 12:18:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11172; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:16:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:16:05 -0800 Message-ID: <005401bf8df1$e58fbb20$cf637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com><000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1@mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:14:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"CuRY1.0.Tk2.5ufpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Ed Wall wrote: > > >Shaw might agree that it is pointless to try to convince the world through > >the courts, but failing to fight is a strong statement. Jed: > > This is a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding. No one, least of all me, is > suggesting he should not fight. I say he should fight a battle he can win, > on grounds where he has the advantage, instead of challenging his opponents > where they have all the advantages of tradition, history and weight of > authority. > I already conceded that the marketplace is his best bet, and he seems to be heading in that direction. It is getting pointless to pursue this lawsuit discussion, given that none yet exists. As far as strategy, there are no easy battlefields. I have always believed, once the field was declared a mistake, that the best chance for development is in appealing to the curiosity of those intelligent and resourceful enough to actually want to know and find out what is happening here. I am glad that Mills will cause detractors to think twice, at least for a while. > >Even if he loses a > >case, he will be able to present a lot of evidence (assuming a reasonable > >presiding judge). > > And the opposition will have nothing to present? No textbooks? No > authoritative experts from the APS? Does anyone seriously believe that > Mills can overthrow the last eighty years of established physics in a > courtroom?!? The idea is pure insanity. Judges are unpredictable. He might be from Missouri and ask the physicist witness for the defense to explain something he can understand well enough to explain to his mother. Then, they're in trouble. You know how shaky the the fundamentals of physics have become. Remember, Arthur Clarke says that for every expert, there's an equal and opposite expert. The judge might even consider physical evidence, you never know. Yes, he'll be told that disputes like this are supposed to be resolved in peer review literature, but this is a business problem, not just academic. The court does not have to decide if Mills is right. It has to decide if he was defamed or slandered, i.e. is he trying to knowingly fool people with an obviously crazy idea, or does he believe it, and do enough reasonably intelligent people believe it to be a good possibility to be explored? A few minutes of you on the stand describing scientific follies of the past could have an interesting effect. The judge cannot possibly consider himself to be competent to decide matters of scientific reality, but he can see an obvious grey area, and decide that it should be so considered. On the other hand, he could get a Clinton appointed judge. : ( > Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 12:36:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20312; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:33:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:33:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314153228.007a4e10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:32:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330E4 mailserver.omnikron .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Y76dv3.0.Iz4.P8gpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florek, Steven wrote: >I'd just like to point out that no lawsuit has actually been filed. The >lawyers have merely sent letters asking these physicists who have been >publicly calling Mills a charlatan to stop. That's like poking a hornet's nest with a stick. It is hard to believe he thinks he can intimidate them. He will upset them, rally their friends, and bring out much stronger opposition from places like the APS. A thousand "friends of the court" will offer to testify on behalf of these Nobel laureates. You don't get to be Top Banana in physics without knowing how to rally the troops and play hardball politics, dirty tricks in court, and manipulating public opinion. What do you suppose Zimmerman will say about this during his upcoming celebrity appearance at the APS? He will milk it! He will rally the big opinion makers. He'll have them signing petitions and contributing to the legal defense fund. When he and Park accused the CF scientists of fraud and delusion last time, people were practically standing on their seats cheering. Incidentally, I have heard Mills sent a letter to Park, too. >I think that Mills' thinks that he has moved into the "violent opposition" >stage and is going to take action to defend himself and BLP as they move >towards IPO. I think so too, but what he is doing will only hurt his prospects, by redoubling opposition. Instead of facing a dozen cranks, he'll be up against the whole darn APS, the State Department, the DoE and a bunch of others who live for power, politics and influence. >There is a legal difference between publicly saying Mills is wrong/a >crank/doesn't have convincing experimental evidence/has mathematical >inconsistencies/is disproven by experiment and publicly saying Mills is a >fraud/a fabricator/dishonest/looking for suckers. The former is an academic >opinion protected by free speech; the latter can be libelous when wielded >without anything to back it up . . . Yes, there is a huge difference, but people like Zimmerman, Park, and the honchos at the APS and the DoE do not recognize it. They *always* respond this way, automatically. Anyone who opposes them or proposes a new idea gets this treatment. Robert Park probably has a rubber stamp and a keyboard macro for his weekly APS column. He presses Ctrl-Alt-F for: "fraud, liar, pinko, wall-eyed lunatic." These people went after Pons and Fleischmann within hours of the March 1989 announcement. In 1991, writing in the Washington Post, Park branded everyone who in any way supported CF as "inept" "corrupt" "lazy" "gullible" and a liar. Do you think he is afraid of a lawsuit for libel by one loner guy with a weird theory, when he goes around publishing statements in major newspapers attacking several hundred distinguished scientists? It is a cruel fact of life, but people often attain positions of power by playing hardball politics, betrayal, libel, and by stepping on other people's faces. They are not going to change because some nut in New Jersey sends a letter or files a lawsuit. Furthermore, they have tons of "evidence" to "back up" their accusations. They wave a textbook and say "see, every sane person knows atoms do not shrink below the ground state. You might as well claim the world is flat. This guy has to be a nut or a criminal." And they will roll out a thousand signatures from the APS to back that up. That is the only kind of "proof" you can have when you judge a scientific issue by the rules of jurisprudence. That argument has carried the day in every newspaper and magazine in the country, and in the DoE, the Patent Office and the APS for ten years. Why would it fail in the courts? > . . . (or worse, when you know it to be false). These people have no doubts Mills is wrong, and he is a fraud or a lunatic. They are positive. They may be hypocrites and jerks, but they have the courage of their convictions. I have encountered them many times in person and in writing, and I am 100% sure that Park, Zimmerman and the others believe their own accusations are true. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 12:54:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26572; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:52:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:52:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314155154.007a9850 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:51:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <005401bf8df1$e58fbb20$cf637dc7 computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KXJEP.0.1V6.dQgpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: >The judge cannot possibly consider himself to be competent to decide matters >of scientific reality, but he can see an obvious grey area, and decide that >it should be so considered. First, I think that is extremely unlikely. Very few *scientists* see any grey area in the theory that atoms shrink below the ground state. Every major CF scientist I know instantly dismisses the theory as "amateur" or "garbage." It is simply not debatable. The theory is outside the pale. There may be debatable issues in science, but this ain't one of them. I would even venture to guess that most of the people on this forum dismiss the theory out of hand. (I myself cannot make head or tail of it, and I couldn't care less whether it is true or false.) Second, Arthur Clarke does say that for every expert, there's an equal and opposite expert, but in this case, for every Mills supporter there are million opposite experts. The evidence in the latest Mills paper will invisible to 99.999% of scientists. If any of it allowed into the trial, a hundred experts will line up to give reasons why those results must be wrong, just as they find reasons to dismiss McKubre, Storms or Bockris. Third, even if by some miracle the judge allowed the issue to be debated, and if by another miracle Mills won, the decision would be appealed and overturned instantly, as happened in the Pons-Fleischmann libel case in Italy. Organizations like the APS would bring it to the Supreme Court if they had to. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 13:32:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06866; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:29:58 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:29:11 EST Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"byGlf.0.8h1.Kzgpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/14/00 11:12:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, Steven.Florek omnikron.com writes: > There is a legal difference between publicly saying Mills is wrong/a > crank/doesn't have convincing experimental evidence/has mathematical > inconsistencies/is disproven by experiment and publicly saying Mills is a > fraud/a fabricator/dishonest/looking for suckers. The former is an academic > opinion protected by free speech; the latter can be libelous when wielded > without anything to back it up (or worse, when you know it to be false). > > Steven Florek > Steve, I wonder (and I hope he would) if he will go after some of the more vehement verbal vomit spewing skeptics over on SPF. Serve them right I say. I have been reading that group since it's inception in April '89 and some of the posts there regarding Dr. Mills IMO, did cross the line into personal libel. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 13:54:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14447; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:50:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:50:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314163627.007fbad0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:36:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"m61Ce.0.fX3.1Hhpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:05 AM 3/14/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Rick Monteverde writes: > > If you're trying to start a business and raise capital and > someone accuses you of a crime like fraud which you believe you > have not committed, I think you have every right, including the > moral right, to sue. > >Under normal circumstances, if you were starting a conventional business to >sell shoes or web page design, I would agree. But everyone knows that most >scientists think Mills is a crazy a fraud. . > He must know that 99.999% of scientists oppose him. Stated, but not measured. ;-)X [ Mr. Rothwell should take his inaccurate hate to vortex-B or just off the net. ] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 13:59:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17337; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:57:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:57:23 -0800 Message-ID: <38CEBA2B.9773BC11 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:16:11 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" , "E.F. Mallove" CC: Edmund Storms Subject: A George Miley presentation in Long Beach Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wq0mC1.0.hE4.3Nhpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: March 14, 2,000 Vortex, I wondered if there some cold fusion related presentations to be made at the April 29th to May 2nd APS Meeting at Long Beach. The primary interest there was the Zimmerman talk on Pseudoscience and pseudoscientists. It turns out that Dr. George Miley is making three presentations there, one of which is titled: Evidence for Nuclear Complex Reactions in Thin-Film Electrodes (V17009 Tuesday morning May 02, 9:36 AM). Something which Dr. Storms has an interest, I believe. There is mention of RIFEX theory. However the presentation is scheduled only for twelve minutes. The Abstract can be read at: <> (hope I got it right :)) -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 14:01:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15060; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:52:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:52:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314163733.007f9300 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:37:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000314155154.007a9850 pop.mindspring.com> References: <005401bf8df1$e58fbb20$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"munVz2.0.Eh3.8Ihpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:51 PM 3/14/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Ed Wall wrote: > >>The judge cannot possibly consider himself to be competent to decide matters >>of scientific reality, but he can see an obvious grey area, and decide that >>it should be so considered. > >First, I think that is extremely unlikely. Very few *scientists* see any >grey area in the theory that atoms shrink below the ground state. Every >major CF scientist I know instantly dismisses the theory as "amateur" or >"garbage." It is simply not debatable. The theory is outside the pale. Every? ??? Since Rothwell admits, "I myself cannot make head or tail of it, and I couldn't care less whether it is true or false." Jed it is obvious that he has nothing to say of use. And it is doubtful he took any meaningful poll. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 14:59:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03253; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:53:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:53:17 -0800 Message-ID: <38CEC259.81D3F2AA verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:51:05 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Superconductivity at Very High Temperatures - Hyperconductivity (cond-mat/0003190) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r3ez8.0.lo.SBipu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, What I am understanding here, that semiconductor materials like silicon become superconductor at above 309K. I am not sure that the superconductivity is dependent of the frequency of the current. Very high frequency is needed? You check it. http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0003190 From: Vyacheslav Andreevich Vdovenkov Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:30:56 GMT (105kb) Superconductivity at Very Hygh Temperatures - Hyperconductivity The mechanism of superconductivity caused by the electron-vibrational centres and their inherent oscillations in crystals and solid-state structures near room temperature and at higher temperatures - hyperconductivity is discussed and actualized. The experimental data about hiperconductivity in some materials are presented. Hyperconductivity arises and exists from normal-superconducting transition temperature Tc to 800K and probably up to melting of material (probably up to temperature of crystal melting and is higher). Tc in various materials varies from hundred up to several hundreds degrees on Kelvin scale depending on size of average nuclear number of a material. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 15:19:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10715; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:15:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:15:14 -0800 Message-ID: <38CEC8D6.40813BFC bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:18:46 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Happy Birthday Al Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ie8Te1.0.Kd2.1Wipu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Had he lived, Albert Einstein would be 121 today. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 15:20:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10673; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:15:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:15:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314181407.007aac20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:14:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XOdbc1.0.bc2.xVipu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{In my opinion, Jed's most likely motivation for arguing that Mills >shouldn't sue those who have insinuated that he is a fraud is simply that >Jed, himself, has frequently insinuated that Mills is a fraud! Thus if >Mills sues such people, he might very well decide to sue Jed! :-) That's ridiculous. How would I know whether he is a fraud or not? I know zippo about shrinking atoms, and I care less, as I have stated countless times. I cannot even understand the Abstract. I never said he was a fraud. An egomaniac, sure, but anyone who watches the video will agree I think. He practically calls himself Newton and Einstein rolled into one. It's hilarious, yet sickening. But he is no fraud as far as I know. On the contrary, I repeatedly said here that the calorimetry (at Thermacore) looks pretty darn good. Crude, but hard to argue with on the face of it. I have only a little information, and no knowledge of the replications at MIT and elsewhere, which were supposedly a lot tighter. I have no experience with this kind of calorimeter, so I feel unsure of myself. I think Little or Logajan have relevant experience with naglene tank calorimetry, and they can probably bring info to the table, or we can review old messages. Little had some doubts about these results, I gather. I am not sure what he has in mind, beyond the stagnant water layer problem he mentioned. Ernst said he checked mixing and temperature uniformity, plus I kinda doubt you would get a stagnant layer at such high power, with the electrolysis and convection mixing . . . This is weird. I stand up for Mills. I state clearly his calorimetry looks okay and the rest of his stuff is over my head. I state as clearly as I can that these people who are attacking him are out of line. And what happens? The two Mitches come of the woodwork, turn every statement upside down, and accuse me of saying exactly the opposite of what I said! After digging a message out of the trash here, Mitch #2 Swartz seems to insinuate that *he believes* the shrinking hydrogen theory. Great! A friend of the court! In my informal survey of CF scientists, including the big names like Fleischmann, Ikegami and McKubre, and the innumerable small ones, here's a first: one who actually buys this stuff. Good. Maybe the theory will turn out to be true and Mitch will have permanent bragging rights. More power to him. Does anyone else here buy it? One or two people here have registered. Several apparently sane, rigorous people like Farrell agree with the theory. Are there others? Just curious. I should also acknowledge that I know about the potential technological and commercial value of the hydrino hydrides. I read that on the web page. Very interesting. The problem is, as far as I know, there is no ready market for hydrinos at this time. You cannot sell 'em today, given the market conditions, customer psych, hydrino production facility limitations, and other factors. Maybe I misunderstand. Hey, if there is a ready market out there for 'em, I am 100% in favor of selling. Full speed ahead! I'll take a bushel, or 10 mg, or a gigaton, or whatever units they come in. If there is a self-service counter show me where to swipe the credit card and which button to push. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 15:28:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14696; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:26:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:26:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000314181853.007f9300 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:18:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000314181407.007aac20 pop.mindspring.com> References: <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Xw3us3.0.Yb3.hgipu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:14 PM 3/14/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{In my opinion, Jed's most likely motivation for arguing that Mills >>shouldn't sue those who have insinuated that he is a fraud is simply that >>Jed, himself, has frequently insinuated that Mills is a fraud! Thus if >>Mills sues such people, he might very well decide to sue Jed! :-) > >That's ridiculous. How would I know whether he is a fraud or not? I know >zippo about shrinking atoms, and I care less, as I have stated countless >times. I cannot even understand the Abstract. > >I never said he was a fraud. Better re-read what you wrote, Mr. Rothwell. >An egomaniac, sure, but anyone who watches the >video will agree I think. He practically calls himself Newton and Einstein >rolled into one. It's hilarious, yet sickening. But he is no fraud as far >as I know. On the contrary, I repeatedly said here that the calorimetry (at >Thermacore) looks pretty darn good. Crude, but hard to argue with on the >face of it. I have only a little information, and no knowledge of the >replications at MIT and elsewhere, which were supposedly a lot tighter. I >have no experience with this kind of calorimeter, so I feel unsure of >myself. I think Little or Logajan have relevant experience with naglene >tank calorimetry, and they can probably bring info to the table, or we can >review old messages. Little had some doubts about these results, I gather. >I am not sure what he has in mind, beyond the stagnant water layer problem >he mentioned. Ernst said he checked mixing and temperature uniformity, plus >I kinda doubt you would get a stagnant layer at such high power, with the >electrolysis and convection mixing . . . > >This is weird. I stand up for Mills. Nonsense. You attack anyone who works in the field from Correias to Meyer to Mills to .... >I state clearly his calorimetry looks >okay and the rest of his stuff is over my head. I state as clearly as I can >that these people who are attacking him are out of line. And what happens? >The two Mitches come of the woodwork, turn every statement upside down, and >accuse me of saying exactly the opposite of what I said! > >After digging a message out of the trash here, The message was indeed dug out of the "trash". It was from Mr. Rothwell's own message. From that very message, just a paragraph down. ROTFLOL. >Mitch #2 Swartz seems to >insinuate that *he believes* the shrinking hydrogen theory. Nonsense. Mr. Frothwell. I said I read his book. You should read the literature youself, if you can. BTW, Mitchell Jones was correct about you, Mr. Rothwell. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 15:35:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17290; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:33:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:33:26 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38CEDA92.106CA5C3 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:34:26 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000314155154.007a9850@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"ejx6H2.0.1E4.6nipu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: Very few *scientists* see any grey area in the theory that atoms shrink below the ground state. Every major CF scientist I know instantly dismisses the theory as "amateur" or "garbage." It is simply not debatable. The theory is outside the pale. Hi Jed, Halton Arp is in the same situation with his position that quasars are new matter travelling at the same speed as their low redshift parent galaxies. These issues will not be settled by theory but by data. Theory is a means to practical ends; and it should not get in the way of these ends. After all, Roger Bacon invented gun powder while adherimg to the theory that matter consisted of earth, air, fire and water. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 17:36:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA29135; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:32:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:32:21 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330EA mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Mills lawsuit Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:35:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"BsXl_.0.-67.ZWkpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Steve, >I wonder (and I hope he would) if he will go after some of the more vehement >verbal vomit spewing skeptics over on SPF. Serve them right I say. >I have been reading that group since it's inception in April '89 and some of >the posts there regarding Dr. Mills IMO, did cross the line into personal >libel. My guess is that going after the SPF monkey chorus would not be productive--I speculate that he's going after people like Paul Grant, Stephen Chu, Michio Kaku, and Robert Park. We know from Erik Baard's articles that they get consulted by prospective investors (eg utilities) and the press. Ultimately they are influential in shaping public opinion--and therefore IPO investment attitudes--so in a sense Mills' fiduciary responsibility to his shareholders may be the rationale. Plus I also get the sense that BLP thought the patent would generate more positive publicity than it did and they might attribute the muted PR effect to the nasty public comments of the aforementioned characters. So this may be BLP's way of retaliating. It looks like 2000 is the year we find out whether Randell Mills will get a Nobel Prize or whether he just forgot to carry the two. > Regards, > Vince Cockeram Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 17:53:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01920; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:49:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:49:58 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: Mills lawsuit Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:01:47 -0500 Message-ID: <20000315020147734.AAA188 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"FtNFT1.0.wT.6nkpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve writes: >It looks like 2000 is the year we find out whether Randell Mills will get a >Nobel Prize or whether he just forgot to carry the two. Albert divided by 0, and look where THAT got us... Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 18:14:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10491; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:11:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:11:54 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330EB mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: New Mills paper Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:14:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"4t-7E1.0.rZ2.f5lpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BLP has redone its web site, and published some new info while they were at it. Everything's been moved all around. I got lost. Mills has written a new paper that gives a more readable explanation of how his theory is derived from Schrodinger and why he thinks QM is the special statistical case of his more general semiclassical theory: http://www.blacklightpower.com/derivative.pdf It doesn't deal sufficiently with the Big Issue (which is he doesn't directly deal with all of the consequences of the banishment of the uncertainty principle) IMO but it's worth a read. Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 19:41:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06895; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:39:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:39:26 -0800 Message-ID: <38CF0A57.E672CC3E ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:58:15 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000314155154.007a9850@pop.mindspring.com> <38CEDA92.106CA5C3@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"s3beT3.0.fh1.kNmpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: March 14, '00 "Taylor J. Smith" wrote: >After all, Roger Bacon invented gun powder while adherimg to the theory >that matter consisted of earth, air, fire and water. > > Jack Smith Roger Bacon is, Chinese? :) -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 20:49:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA28621; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:48:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:48:44 -0800 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: Oh you guys are gonna love this one... Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:42:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <38CF0A57.E672CC3E ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"xUVYg2.0.2_6.hOnpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: US Patent 6025810 Hyper-light speed antenna. The present invention has discovered the apparent existance of a new dimension... Anyone care to comment on this? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 21:09:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04035; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:07:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:07:52 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <38CF0A57.E672CC3E ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:07:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Oh you guys are gonna love this one... Resent-Message-ID: <"e-HIr1.0.z-.dgnpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=US06025810__ Inventor(s): Strom; David L. , Aurora, CO 80010 Issued/Filed Dates: Feb. 15, 2000 / Oct. 2, 1997 Abstract: A method to transmit and receive electromagnetic waves which comprises generating opposing magnetic fields having a plane of maximum force running perpendicular to a longitudinal axis of the magnetic field; generating a heat source along an axis parallel to the longitudinal axis of the magnetic field; generating an accelerator parallel to and in close proximity to the heat source, thereby creating an input and output port; and generating a communications signal into the input and output port, thereby sending the signal at a speed faster than light. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 14 23:32:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01372; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:29:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:29:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38CF3B6C.1AE3873E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:27:40 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Oh you guys are gonna love this one... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"34zP03.0.0L.2lppu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What a great news! It appears that heating unwound (just like do the flatiron :)) the tiny closed loop hidden dimensions that theoretical physicists using them for more than 50 years. They first introduced by Kaluza-Klein, then used on superstings theories. I believed that is really a new dimension. I wonder why it took 4 years to grant the patent. Need invest more time to understand it. Regards, hamdi Keith Nagel wrote: > > US Patent 6025810 > > Hyper-light speed antenna. > > The present invention has discovered the apparent existance > of a new dimension... > > Anyone care to comment on this? > > K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 01:01:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA24170; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:00:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:00:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38CF3B6C.1AE3873E verisoft.com.tr> References: <38CF3B6C.1AE3873E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:00:33 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Oh you guys are gonna love this one... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"p8kiY1.0.av5.y4rpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi - This is terrible! What right do we have heating other people's Universes? What would become of the inhabitants there? We are indeed ugly bags of mostly water! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >It appears that heating unwound (just like do the flatiron :)) the >tiny closed loop hidden dimensions that theoretical physicists using >them for more than 50 years. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 05:25:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA05753; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:24:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:24:05 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38CF9D3C.68106CF8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:25:00 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000314155154.007a9850@pop.mindspring.com> <38CEDA92.106CA5C3@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <38CF0A57.E672CC3E@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"Hdbsr.0.pP1.qxupu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack Smith wrote: After all, Roger Bacon invented gun powder while adherimg to the theory that matter consisted of earth, air, fire and water. -ak- wrote: Roger Bacon is, Chinese? :) Hi Akira, Correction noted: Roger Bacon RE-INVENTED gun powder while adherimg to the theory that matter consisted of earth, air, fire and water. I wonder what the Chinese theory was at the time of the invention of gun powder. (Some people collect string; I collect theories.) Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 05:43:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA10137; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:43:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:43:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000315083504.0080beb0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:35:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <38CF9D3C.68106CF8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000314155154.007a9850 pop.mindspring.com> <38CEDA92.106CA5C3 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <38CF0A57.E672CC3E ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mVw913.0.JU2.rDvpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:25 PM 3/15/00 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > >Jack Smith wrote: > >After all, Roger Bacon invented gun powder while adherimg >to the theory that matter consisted of earth, air, fire and water. > >-ak- wrote: > >Roger Bacon is, Chinese? :) > >Hi Akira, > >Correction noted: >Roger Bacon RE-INVENTED gun powder while adherimg to the >theory that matter consisted of earth, air, fire and water. > >I wonder what the Chinese theory was at the time of the >invention of gun powder. (Some people collect string; >I collect theories.) > >Jack Smith Background here: http://kids.infoplease.com/ce5/CE004043.html http://history.hanover.edu/medieval/rbacon.htm and http://philosophy.ohio-state.edu/bacon.html "He was long credited with the invention of gunpowder (because of a formula for gunpowder that appeared in a work attributed to him)" and was probably taken from the Chinese. He also reportedly invented, based on a tardive manuscript: "the first man to have observed spiral nebulae through a telescope and to have examined cells through a microscope; but considerable doubt has been cast on the original date and the authenticity of the manuscript." see http://encyclopedia.com/printable/00991.html Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 05:48:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA11967; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:47:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000315084605.0079a670 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:46:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: <38CF9D3C.68106CF8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> <3.0.6.32.20000314131258.007ae580 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000314155154.007a9850 pop.mindspring.com> <38CEDA92.106CA5C3 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <38CF0A57.E672CC3E ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gEPTo3.0.vw2.OHvpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >(Some people collect string; >I collect theories.) And do you collect string theories? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 06:54:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA01063; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:54:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:54:03 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38CF3B6C.1AE3873E verisoft.com.tr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:53:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Oh you guys are gonna love this one... Resent-Message-ID: <"8sjSW.0.VG.AGwpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >It appears that heating unwound (just like do the flatiron :)) the tiny >closed loop hidden dimensions that theoretical physicists using them for >more than 50 years. They first introduced by Kaluza-Klein, then used on >superstings theories. I believed that is really a new dimension. > > I wonder why it took 4 years to grant the patent. Need invest more time >to understand it. actually, the patent reads more like a DIY project in Popular Electronics, complete with schematics and a parts list. And, according to the inventor, it also promotes plant growth... ;-) I wonder if he sells kits? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 08:10:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26704; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:00:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:00:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Oh you guys are gonna love this one... Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:58:08 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"1ISgW2.0.AX6.qExpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not that the patent reveals much; having read thru it last nite I can say precious little about why the thing supposedly works. One observation; the zone over which the device is supposed to work is only several inches, and it is unclear as to how the inventor determines that the signal is travelling in excess of C. Also, he's using resonant elements for the transmitter and receiver, so the chance for mistaken observation is, shall we say, non-negligable. But more information would clear this up. K. PS: Plants do grow much better when next to 600watt halogen lamps... -----Original Message----- From: ralph muha [mailto:rmuha minimal.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 9:54 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oh you guys are gonna love this one... >It appears that heating unwound (just like do the flatiron :)) the tiny >closed loop hidden dimensions that theoretical physicists using them for >more than 50 years. They first introduced by Kaluza-Klein, then used on >superstings theories. I believed that is really a new dimension. > > I wonder why it took 4 years to grant the patent. Need invest more time >to understand it. actually, the patent reads more like a DIY project in Popular Electronics, complete with schematics and a parts list. And, according to the inventor, it also promotes plant growth... ;-) I wonder if he sells kits? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 10:39:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22328; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:35:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:35:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000314181407.007aac20 pop.mindspring.com> References: <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:34:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Resent-Message-ID: <"wtqox3.0.oS5.cVzpu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{In my opinion, Jed's most likely motivation for arguing that Mills >>shouldn't sue those who have insinuated that he is a fraud is simply that >>Jed, himself, has frequently insinuated that Mills is a fraud! Thus if >>Mills sues such people, he might very well decide to sue Jed! :-) > >That's ridiculous. How would I know whether he is a fraud or not? I know >zippo about shrinking atoms, and I care less, as I have stated countless >times. I cannot even understand the Abstract. > >I never said he was a fraud. ***{The word I used was *insinuate*, Jed. The word refers to a process of subtly and artfully infusing an idea into the mind of another, without coming right out and baldly asserting it as a fact. Rather than saying Mills is dishonest, which would be actionable, you have said on a number of occasions that you do not trust him. Rather than saying that he is insane, you have described behaviors of his in psychiatric terms which are normally applied to persons who are insane, or else you have said he is insane IF he is thinking in such and such a manner. And so on. For example: JR: Mills claimed that he had effective, large-scale excess heat from gas cells many years ago. Assuming this was true, he should have demonstrated those cells in public and at venues like the APS. MC: An assumption, Jed, leading to an unwarranted conclusion. . . . JR: I assumed they were telling the truth at MIT and to the CBC. Perhaps that was an unwarranted assumption. Or again: JR: Imagine how many more might have done it if Mills understood business. MC: Are you really sure he doesn't? He's done a good job of attracting capital and establishing a presence in Princeton so far. JR: No, he has done a terrible job. If one-tenth of what he claimed years ago is true, then by now he should have attracted a billion, yet he is still screwing around in the millions. On the other hand, if the claims were false, then he has done a wonderful job covering up his previous statements and I pity the people who invested in him. Or again: MC: I don't think that this is just a theoretical dispute in Mills' eyes. He knows that the hydrinos exist, because he has the experimental and observational proof, and I think he doesn't want to spend any of his time with people who reject that. JR: In other words, he will suppress his own technology and destroy any possibility of scientific acceptance or commercialization -- ever, and he will not spend time with 99.9999999999% of the human race because people disagree with him. This is insane. These are the actions of a man who is obsessed with theory and who would destroy himself merely to satisfy his own ego. --Mitchell Jones}*** An egomaniac, sure, but anyone who watches the >video will agree I think. He practically calls himself Newton and Einstein >rolled into one. It's hilarious, yet sickening. ***{Actually, it is statements such as the above, coming from a man who admits that Mills' reasoning is over his head, that are hilarious, yet sickening. As I have pointed out to you before, until you can judge whether Mills' theories are correct or incorrect, you have no basis for judging whether he has an overly high opinion of his own abilities. I am reminded of an episode from many years ago, when Bobby Fischer appeared on the Johnny Carson show. Fischer had recently won the chess championship of the world, and in the course of the show, Carson asked him how much time he spent studying books on chess theory written by other grandmasters. Fischer replied that since he understood chess theory better than those who wrote books about it, he considered it a waste of time to study such material. Result: the audience immediately reacted with a chorus of boos and catcalls. Carson, however, noted the obvious incongruity in their behavior, pointing out to them that, since Bobby Fischer was both the world champion and the highest rated player in world history, his statement could *not* be reasonably dismissed as an exaggeration. And, obviously, the same applies to Mills, if his theories prove to be correct. --MJ}*** But he is no fraud as far >as I know. On the contrary, I repeatedly said here that the calorimetry (at >Thermacore) looks pretty darn good. Crude, but hard to argue with on the >face of it. I have only a little information, and no knowledge of the >replications at MIT and elsewhere, which were supposedly a lot tighter. I >have no experience with this kind of calorimeter, so I feel unsure of >myself. I think Little or Logajan have relevant experience with naglene >tank calorimetry, and they can probably bring info to the table, or we can >review old messages. Little had some doubts about these results, I gather. >I am not sure what he has in mind, beyond the stagnant water layer problem >he mentioned. Ernst said he checked mixing and temperature uniformity, plus >I kinda doubt you would get a stagnant layer at such high power, with the >electrolysis and convection mixing . . . > >This is weird. I stand up for Mills. I state clearly his calorimetry looks >okay and the rest of his stuff is over my head. I state as clearly as I can >that these people who are attacking him are out of line. And what happens? >The two Mitches come of the woodwork, turn every statement upside down, and >accuse me of saying exactly the opposite of what I said! ***{Hollow words, Jed. You may think you can flame Mills for years and then, when it begins to appear that he is correct, that you can reverse field and no one will notice, but you are mistaken. You remind me of Dan Rather, in fact: for decades he sang the praises of the Soviet Union, and then, when it fell apart like the rotten, dead thing it had always been, he never missed a beat. It was as if he had expected it to fall apart all along! (That's the way journalism works, right? A journalist may say the opposite, today, of what he said yesterday, but that doesn't mean he was ever wrong! :-) --MJ}*** [snip] > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 11:57:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19089; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:55:18 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:00:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Vince...Scott ... Mills In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Gr9Tm1.0.xf4.ag-pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Do you think we could engineer up a "tiny cell" ... such as capillary sized.... to try to demonstrate some of these effects in a soup cup sized environment? Possible: 1 mm Inner Dia capillary wire electrodes and tiny reagent amounts. John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 12:06:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27488; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:02:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:02:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003152002.PAA18585 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Mallove reviews Park's Voodoo Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:54:30 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"NSpKP.0.Oj6.jn-pu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud by Robert L. Park ISBN: 0-19-513516-6 $25.00 Hardcover, 256 pp. Oxford University Press Tentative date for publication: May 2000. Review by Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Tel: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com This review is of a pre-publication galley proof sent to Infinite Energy with a press release on Oxford University Press letterhead mocking cold fusion. (Copyright 2000, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.) Historians of science may well look back on this book as a dying ember from the funeral pyre of late twentieth century establishment physics, which hurtles toward a supposed "theory of everything," while being blissfully ignorant of profound cracks in its very foundations. But author Robert L. Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland, is now riding high. For some years he has been the darling of editors seeking crisp commentary from the chief representative of the American Physical Society (APS), a position he has held since 1982. Whether railing against manned spaceflight, anti-ballistic missile defense, alternative health care, ESP research, UFO investigation, or his favorite whipping topic, cold fusion, you will find Robert Park in top mud-slinging form on the Op Ed pages of The New York Times and The Washington Post, among others. His politicized weekly "What's New" internet science column (www.opa.org/WN) is remarkable in that it is tolerated at all by the APS. Especially since Park, with insufferable chutzpa, ends each column with a fake disclaimer: "Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be." That's pure Park, who hopes that his audience will come to see the world through the filter of the scientific certainties that he and many of his arrogant physics colleagues claim to possess. Dr. Park has now compiled his wisdom in a short volume, in which he claims to have discovered a new kind of science -- "voodoo science" -- the title of his book. His definition of voodoo science is encapsulated in the subtitle, "The Road from Foolishness to Fraud." There is a progression from "honest error" that evolves "from self-delusion to fraud," he says. Further elaborating the definition: "The line between foolishness and fraud is thin. Because it is not always easy to tell when that line is crossed, I use the term voodoo science to cover them all: pathological science, junk science, pseudoscience, and fraudulent science." This is how he says he discovered voodoo science. In the course of his PR work for the APS he "kept bumping up against scientific ideas and claims that are totally, indisputably, extravagantly wrong." He is that certain, three adverbs worth, that many of the things he calls voodoo science cannot be right. More often than not, he draws his conclusions from fundamental theory that is supposedly sacrosanct. Therein lies the fundamental failure of Park and so many of his colleagues in the physics establishment. They have abandoned what little curiosity about scientific experiments that they may have had at the beginning of their scientific careers: they attack data from experiments that at first glance appear to be in conflict with theory, about which they have concluded one of two things: 1) The theory can't possibly need fundamental modification, which might allow the phenomenon to occur or 2) It is inconceivable that existing theory can be applied to allow the phenomenon. It takes a special kind of arrogance to conclude affirmatively on both those points, particularly when both experimental data and theory for an anomalous phenomenon trend strongly against the doubters, cold fusion being a prime example. Park thinks he knows what he and the physics establishment are doing, but he does not. He writes, ". . .no matter how plausible a theory seems to be, experiment gets the final word." For Park, theory rules which experiments he will even look at. Revealing complete ignorance of the bloody battles over paradigm shifts in science (of the very kind he is obstructing!), Park claims, "When better information is available, science textbooks are re-written with hardly a backward glance." Baloney! In Voodoo, Park dismisses cold fusion at its very first mention, referring to it as "the discredited 'cold fusion' claim made several years earlier by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann." He says that a "dwindling band of believers" continue to gather each year "at some swank international resort" in an attempt to "resuscitate" cold fusion. He asks, "Why does this little band so fervently believe in something the rest of the scientific community rejected as fantasy years earlier?" He speculates later, "Perhaps many scientists found in cold fusion relief from boredom." Park works himself up about cold fusion throughout the book and tells us what he really thinks of cold fusion: "On June 6, 1989, just seventy-five days after the Salt Lake City announcement, cold fusion had clearly crossed the line from foolishness to fraud." He states that Fleischmann and Pons "exaggerated or fabricated their evidence." (He only speculates whether cold fusion researcher Dr. James Patterson of Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. may have "crossed the line from foolishness to fraud.") He complains that no helium-4 results were forthcoming from Fleischmann and Pons by June 1989, ergo, cold fusion is a fraud. Since at least 1991, Park has been informed by fellow APS scientists, such as Dr. Scott Chubb, about helium-4 detection in cathodes and in the gas streams of cold fusion experiments. These independent experiments have been published in the U.S. and Japan in peer-reviewed journals. There is no doubt that Park knows this. Voodoo contains no mention of this data, an egregious fraud by Park on journalists and the general public. Park has not troubled himself to study the very data which he demanded many years ago as proof of cold fusion, e.g. the helium-4 nuclear ash data, even after this data made it into the peer-reviewed literature. "You don't have to worry about the heat if there is no helium," was his statement to me in the spring of 1991, recorded in my book, Fire from Ice. On June 14, 1989, in the Chronicle of Higher Education, Park opined, "The most frustrating aspect of this controversy is that it could have been settled weeks ago. If fusion occurs at the level that the two scientists claim, then helium, the end product of fusion, must be present in the used palladium cathodes." Apart from his gross error of ignoring the helium that might be in the cover gas coming from surface reactions (such cold fusion helium had been detected in 1991 and later), it is notable that Park has never mentioned any of the published literature on helium in cold fusion experiments. On the issue of cold fusion Park has traveled, in his lexicon, from foolishness to fraud. Though he has not troubled himself with inconvenient facts, such as experimental evidence of robust character that supports cold fusion, he states preposterously: "Ten years after the announcement of cold fusion, results are no more persuasive than those in the first weeks." He rewrites cold fusion history with ludicrous bloopers designed to entertain: "How, I wondered, could Pons and Fleischmann have been working on their cold fusion idea for five years, as they claimed, without going to the library to find out what was already known about hydrogen in metals?" Electrochemist Fellow of the Royal Society Martin Fleischmann not knowing a lot about hydrogen in metals? A bit much to suggest, even for an unethical obfuscator like Park. Park is the one who should have gone to the library. He would have discovered that leading cold fusion scientists like Fleischmann and Bockris wrote the textbooks about hydrogen in metals. Fleischmann's outstanding research in this area earned him a Fellowship in the Royal Society, arguably the world's most prestigious scientific society. In other contexts Park claims allegiance to established theory and the expertise of leading authorities; in this case, he does not even realize who the authorities are. If Park doesn't get his information about cold fusion from technical papers, the normal approach in science, from where does he get it? Apparently he is briefed by fact-resistant critic Dr. Douglas Morrison of CERN, who has attended the international cold fusion conferences where he asks mostly obtuse questions, proving that he, like Park, has not read the cold fusion literature. Morrison has "kept an eye on cold fusion for the rest of us," as Park puts it. The result of all this is to have Morrison, the prime purveyor of the "pathological science" theory of cold fusion, passing misinformation to Park, who then jazzes it up with snide remarks suited to the Washington beltway crowd. Morrison is the only skeptic to actually publish a paper that attempts to come to grips with quantitative issues of cold fusion calorimetry and electrochemistry. Every paragraph in his paper included an elementary mistake. A few examples: he subtracted the same factor twice. He claimed that Fleischmann and Pons used "a complicated non-linear regression analysis" method -- which they did not use. He recommended another method instead -- the one, in fact, they did use. He confused power (watts) with energy (joules). He claimed that hydrogen escaping from a 0.0044 mole palladium hydride might produce 144 watts of power and 1.1 million joules of energy, whereas the textbooks say the maximum power from this would be 0.005 watts, and a simple calculation shows that the most energy it could produce is 650 joules. This is the "expert" Park relies upon for news of cold fusion! And Park well knows the propaganda value of turning a serious subject into a joke. In his account of the early days of cold fusion he observes, "Cold Fusion was becoming a joke. In Washington that is usually fatal." After assaulting the main body of cold fusion research, Park singles out for attack Dr. Randell Mills of BlackLight Power Inc. (see Infinite Energy coverage, Issue No. 17 pp. 21-35 and Issue No. 29, pp. 40-41). He says that Mills did not offer "any experimental evidence" for his claims of excess energy caused by catalytic hydrino formation. Park does not discuss the multiple channels of experimental and astrophysical data that Mills has cited to defend his theory. He covers up the serious, positive results that the NASA Lewis Research Center published in its official report on the Mills replication. But Park, at his core, argues mainly from theory: "But those who bet on hydrinos are betting against the most firmly established and successful laws of physics." Mr. Certain asks rhetorically, "What are the odds that Randall [sic] Mills is right? To within a very high degree of accuracy, the odds are zero." Though I expected Park to bash scientific anomalies, I was unprepared to discover the depths of his ignorance about spaceflight and its future. Commenting on his early 1990s testimony before Congress in support of unmanned space missions, he recalls, "I wanted to explain why the era of human space exploration had ended twenty-five-years earlier and was unlikely ever to come back." No future for human presence in space? Is Park for real? He ends his myopic refrain with inept poetry bearing an absurd message, "America's astronauts have been left stranded in low-earth orbit, like passengers waiting beside an abandoned stretch of track for a train that will never come, bypassed by the advance of science." Amateur astronaut Park offers an amazing blooper, "If there was gold in low earth orbit, it would not pay to get it." Astonishing! He apparently does not understand such elementary concepts as the small propulsion energy cost of de-orbiting with rockets and aero-braking, when he makes this and other claims. In the emerging era of commercial space transportation, this Park faux pas will be remembered as a late twentieth century howler, on par with statements by astronomer Simon Newcomb earlier in the century that heavier than air flight was likely to remain impossible. In Park's crusade against manned spaceflight, he even goes after astronaut hero John Glenn: "Both Ham [a chimpanzee aboard an early U.S. space flight] and Glenn would end up in Washington: Glenn in the U.S. Senate, Ham in the national zoo. Ham died a short time later without ever returning to space." He attacks "messianic engineer," Robert Zubrin, who has put forth concrete, well-researched proposals for cost-saving space missions, in his book The Case for Mars. Park says that Zubrin started "his own cult -- the Mars Society." Park mocks the aspirations that led people like Dr. Robert Goddard and so many others this century to work toward the manned exploration of space: "Zubrin had learned his lessons well. The focus is on the dream. His followers feel their feet crunching into the sands of Mars, while the most daunting technical challenges are swept aside with simplistic solutions." On the book jacket Park singles out "magnet therapy" and cold fusion as the epitome of "foolish and fraudulent scientific claims." In the only "experiment" that he actually decides to personally conduct to test any of his opinions, he launches a misguided effort to disprove the alleged therapeutic effectiveness of magnets in contact with the human body. He bought some athletic magnets from a local store, then stuck one on a steel file cabinet. He then inserted sheets of paper under the magnet, finding that at ten sheets the magnet fell off. He exults, "Credit cards and pregnant women are safe! The field of these magnets would hardly extend through the skin, much less penetrate muscles." Park had merely found the point at which static friction (caused by the magnetic force) is insufficient to hold the magnet against the force of gravity. On this basis he concludes that magnetic field would not penetrate into skin! This is completely wrong, as sophomore physics students at MIT, and presumably at the University of Maryland, would know. Park gets an F-grade on that one. "Not that it would make any difference if it did penetrate," he says. Park always has some a priori theoretical insight about why something "can't be." This PR agent for the American Physical Society needs a refresher course in Science 101. Given Park's incompetent assessment of cold fusion and his failures in elementary scientific methodology, we cannot expect a useful appraisal of other controversial areas, such as whether or not there are loopholes in or extensions to classical thermodynamics, whether low-level electromagnetic fields can affect biological systems, the "memory of water" question, or the scientific foundations of alternative medicine. Regardless of their individual merits, Park gives these questions the same brush-off he applies to cold fusion. It is not that one might never find areas of agreement with Park. For example, some of the charlatan-like antics of Dennis Lee of Better World Technologies, which Park chronicles, are appalling and have nothing to do with the serious scientific investigation of anomalous energy phenomena. And Park states that "there is now overwhelming scientific evidence that we ourselves can affect Earth's climate." Some scientists would agree with that; I don't happen to. I side with those atmospheric scientists who believe that computer models do not yet come close to an adequate representation of all the factors that affect climate. On the other side, Park is rather forgiving about such things as government spending for tokamak hot fusion, which is widely regarded as a financially wasteful research boondoggle even by those who have nothing to do with cold fusion. He says absolutely nothing about the ill-fated Superconducting Supercollider (SSC), which was begun and then cancelled, before it could waste even more taxpayer money. We do not hear of the scandalous recent cost overrun at the ICF weapons simulation laser fusion device, which was led by a physicist who was not even honest about his academic credentials. To Park, this waste is apparently "all in the family" -- the kind of money that the white collar welfare, government-funded physics community can be forgiven for wasting. It is tempting to speculate that Park may be suffering from a psychological problem known as projection, or possibly cognitive dissonance. At some level, this confused man with all his years of schooling must realize that he is out of his element in evaluating the cold fusion evidence. He doesn't really know whether the evidence is good or not. Obviously he has not studied it except superficially, yet he has gone far out on a limb in attacking it -- he can't bring himself to turn back. Among other problems, admitting he had been very wrong would call into question his many other judgments, from manned space travel to magnet therapy. He expected that cold fusion would have gone away years ago, but it hasn't. So he creates the myth that the cold fusion field consists of "followers who see what they expect to see." In truth, it is Park who is seeing what he wants to see -- lack of evidence where there is evidence! The following grand assessment by Park of "voodoo" others pertains most properly to him: "While it never pays to underestimate the human capacity for self-deception, they must at some point begin to realize that things are not behaving as they had supposed." It will be cosmic justice for this profoundly foolish, mean-spirited flack for the physics establishment when in the light of scientific advance the bigotry and lies he has turned against others expose him for what he is. - End of Review (Copyright 2000, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 12:24:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29397; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:21:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:21:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000315152024.0079fa50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:20:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000314181407.007aac20 pop.mindspring.com> <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eO37Q3.0.BB7.B3_pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The word I used was *insinuate*, Jed. The word refers to a process of >subtly and artfully infusing an idea into the mind of another, without >coming right out and baldly asserting it as a fact. . . . Okay: I never said, insinuated, thought, or imagined that Mills is a fraud. Scientifically speaking, that is. His business practices stink, and they often seem suspicious or at least misguided, but his scientific claims are clean as a whistle as far as I can judge. That isn't far. Scott Little has some doubts about his calorimetry. If he gets around to explaining these doubts, I might defer to his judgement. Your insuations of my alledged insinuations are damn nonsense. All this stuff you quoted are my statements about his business practices, his loony-tune sales strategy, and his spooky personality, not his science. These are completely different subjects, a fact which you seem to have difficulty grasping. >***{Hollow words, Jed. You may think you can flame Mills for years and >then, when it begins to appear that he is correct, that you can reverse >field and no one will notice, but you are mistaken. . . . I have only reversed field on Mills once. I used to admire him and his work, particularly after the 1992 MIT presentations and my discussions with Farrell. After that, Mills repeatedly promised there would be products, demonstrations, publications, sales, and he broke his promise again, and again, and again. I became fed up with him. You accuse me of "insinuating." That means: "1. To introduce ideas gradually and insidiously" or "2.To introduce or insert (oneself) by subtle and artful means." (American Heritage) You are mistaken. I am never gradual, insiduous or subtle. I have many faults, but these are not among them. I always say exactly what I mean, as clearly as I can. In this case you seem to be having difficulty understanding, so let me state this one more time for the record: The heat is probably real. The other claims could be real or hot air for all I know. As for the man, I would not trust him as far as I can throw him, because he has a long, well-documented history of lying through his teeth. That is to say, he missed deadlines seven years in a row without a word of explanation. As for his business acumen, judging by the strategies he has made public so far, and his misuse of investment funds in real estate, I would not put him in charge of sales from a street pushcart. I will grant he has attracted capital so far. I suppose this is because the product is good, but I have no inside knowledge to confirm that supposition. Okay? Are you satisfied with my clarity now? Do you detect any more hidden "insinuations"? I hope not! Go ahead and fax that to him if you like, and both of you go to hell. And by the way, if the guy really was a second Einstein, I expect he would be more like Einstein #1. He would realize his own limitations and his fundamental ignorance. Real geniuses are humbled by Nature, even if they are not humble by nature. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 12:26:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29660; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:22:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:22:29 -0800 Message-Id: <200003152022.PAA24609 mercury.mv.net> Subject: 2nd submission -- maybe better format. Voodoo review Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:14:15 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"twRM3.0.HF7.44_pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Maybe better format. Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud by Robert L. Park ISBN: 0-19-513516-6 $25.00 Hardcover, 256 pp. Oxford University Press Tentative date for publication: May 2000. Review by Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Tel: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com This review is of a pre-publication galley proof sent to Infinite Energy with a press release on Oxford University Press letterhead mocking cold fusion. (Copyright 2000, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.) Historians of science may well look back on this book as a dying ember from the funeral pyre of late twentieth century establishment physics, which hurtles toward a supposed "theory of everything," while being blissfully ignorant of profound cracks in its very foundations. But author Robert L. Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland, is now riding high. For some years he has been the darling of editors seeking crisp commentary from the chief representative of the American Physical Society (APS), a position he has held since 1982. Whether railing against manned spaceflight, anti-ballistic missile defense, alternative health care, ESP research, UFO investigation, or his favorite whipping topic, cold fusion, you will find Robert Park in top mud-slinging form on the Op Ed pages of The New York Times and The Washington Post, among others. His politicized weekly "What's New" internet science column (www.opa.org/WN) is remarkable in that it is tolerated at all by the APS. Especially since Park, with insufferable chutzpa, ends each column with a fake disclaimer: "Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be." That's pure Park, who hopes that his audience will come to see the world through the filter of the scientific certainties that he and many of his arrogant physics colleagues claim to possess. Dr. Park has now compiled his wisdom in a short volume, in which he claims to have discovered a new kind of science -- "voodoo science" -- the title of his book. His definition of voodoo science is encapsulated in the subtitle, "The Road from Foolishness to Fraud." There is a progression from "honest error" that evolves "from self-delusion to fraud," he says. Further elaborating the definition: "The line between foolishness and fraud is thin. Because it is not always easy to tell when that line is crossed, I use the term voodoo science to cover them all: pathological science, junk science, pseudoscience, and fraudulent science." This is how he says he discovered voodoo science. In the course of his PR work for the APS he "kept bumping up against scientific ideas and claims that are totally, indisputably, extravagantly wrong." He is that certain, three adverbs worth, that many of the things he calls voodoo science cannot be right. More often than not, he draws his conclusions from fundamental theory that is supposedly sacrosanct. Therein lies the fundamental failure of Park and so many of his colleagues in the physics establishment. They have abandoned what little curiosity about scientific experiments that they may have had at the beginning of their scientific careers: they attack data from experiments that at first glance appear to be in conflict with theory, about which they have concluded one of two things: 1) The theory can't possibly need fundamental modification, which might allow the phenomenon to occur or 2) It is inconceivable that existing theory can be applied to allow the phenomenon. It takes a special kind of arrogance to conclude affirmatively on both those points, particularly when both experimental data and theory for an anomalous phenomenon trend strongly against the doubters, cold fusion being a prime example. Park thinks he knows what he and the physics establishment are doing, but he does not. He writes, ". . .no matter how plausible a theory seems to be, experiment gets the final word." For Park, theory rules which experiments he will even look at. Revealing complete ignorance of the bloody battles over paradigm shifts in science (of the very kind he is obstructing!), Park claims, "When better information is available, science textbooks are re-written with hardly a backward glance." Baloney! In Voodoo, Park dismisses cold fusion at its very first mention, referring to it as "the discredited 'cold fusion' claim made several years earlier by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann." He says that a "dwindling band of believers" continue to gather each year "at some swank international resort" in an attempt to "resuscitate" cold fusion. He asks, "Why does this little band so fervently believe in something the rest of the scientific community rejected as fantasy years earlier?" He speculates later, "Perhaps many scientists found in cold fusion relief from boredom." Park works himself up about cold fusion throughout the book and tells us what he really thinks of cold fusion: "On June 6, 1989, just seventy-five days after the Salt Lake City announcement, cold fusion had clearly crossed the line from foolishness to fraud." He states that Fleischmann and Pons "exaggerated or fabricated their evidence." (He only speculates whether cold fusion researcher Dr. James Patterson of Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. may have "crossed the line from foolishness to fraud.") He complains that no helium-4 results were forthcoming from Fleischmann and Pons by June 1989, ergo, cold fusion is a fraud. Since at least 1991, Park has been informed by fellow APS scientists, such as Dr. Scott Chubb, about helium-4 detection in cathodes and in the gas streams of cold fusion experiments. These independent experiments have been published in the U.S. and Japan in peer-reviewed journals. There is no doubt that Park knows this. Voodoo contains no mention of this data, an egregious fraud by Park on journalists and the general public. Park has not troubled himself to study the very data which he demanded many years ago as proof of cold fusion, e.g. the helium-4 nuclear ash data, even after this data made it into the peer-reviewed literature. "You don't have to worry about the heat if there is no helium," was his statement to me in the spring of 1991, recorded in my book, Fire from Ice. On June 14, 1989, in the Chronicle of Higher Education, Park opined, "The most frustrating aspect of this controversy is that it could have been settled weeks ago. If fusion occurs at the level that the two scientists claim, then helium, the end product of fusion, must be present in the used palladium cathodes." Apart from his gross error of ignoring the helium that might be in the cover gas coming from surface reactions (such cold fusion helium had been detected in 1991 and later), it is notable that Park has never mentioned any of the published literature on helium in cold fusion experiments. On the issue of cold fusion Park has traveled, in his lexicon, from foolishness to fraud. Though he has not troubled himself with inconvenient facts, such as experimental evidence of robust character that supports cold fusion, he states preposterously: "Ten years after the announcement of cold fusion, results are no more persuasive than those in the first weeks." He rewrites cold fusion history with ludicrous bloopers designed to entertain: "How, I wondered, could Pons and Fleischmann have been working on their cold fusion idea for five years, as they claimed, without going to the library to find out what was already known about hydrogen in metals?" Electrochemist Fellow of the Royal Society Martin Fleischmann not knowing a lot about hydrogen in metals? A bit much to suggest, even for an unethical obfuscator like Park. Park is the one who should have gone to the library. He would have discovered that leading cold fusion scientists like Fleischmann and Bockris wrote the textbooks about hydrogen in metals. Fleischmann's outstanding research in this area earned him a Fellowship in the Royal Society, arguably the world's most prestigious scientific society. In other contexts Park claims allegiance to established theory and the expertise of leading authorities; in this case, he does not even realize who the authorities are. If Park doesn't get his information about cold fusion from technical papers, the normal approach in science, from where does he get it? Apparently he is briefed by fact-resistant critic Dr. Douglas Morrison of CERN, who has attended the international cold fusion conferences where he asks mostly obtuse questions, proving that he, like Park, has not read the cold fusion literature. Morrison has "kept an eye on cold fusion for the rest of us," as Park puts it. The result of all this is to have Morrison, the prime purveyor of the "pathological science" theory of cold fusion, passing misinformation to Park, who then jazzes it up with snide remarks suited to the Washington beltway crowd. Morrison is the only skeptic to actually publish a paper that attempts to come to grips with quantitative issues of cold fusion calorimetry and electrochemistry. Every paragraph in his paper included an elementary mistake. A few examples: he subtracted the same factor twice. He claimed that Fleischmann and Pons used "a complicated non-linear regression analysis" method -- which they did not use. He recommended another method instead -- the one, in fact, they did use. He confused power (watts) with energy (joules). He claimed that hydrogen escaping from a 0.0044 mole palladium hydride might produce 144 watts of power and 1.1 million joules of energy, whereas the textbooks say the maximum power from this would be 0.005 watts, and a simple calculation shows that the most energy it could produce is 650 joules. This is the "expert" Park relies upon for news of cold fusion! And Park well knows the propaganda value of turning a serious subject into a joke. In his account of the early days of cold fusion he observes, "Cold Fusion was becoming a joke. In Washington that is usually fatal." After assaulting the main body of cold fusion research, Park singles out for attack Dr. Randell Mills of BlackLight Power Inc. (see Infinite Energy coverage, Issue No. 17 pp. 21-35 and Issue No. 29, pp. 40-41). He says that Mills did not offer "any experimental evidence" for his claims of excess energy caused by catalytic hydrino formation. Park does not discuss the multiple channels of experimental and astrophysical data that Mills has cited to defend his theory. He covers up the serious, positive results that the NASA Lewis Research Center published in its official report on the Mills replication. But Park, at his core, argues mainly from theory: "But those who bet on hydrinos are betting against the most firmly established and successful laws of physics." Mr. Certain asks rhetorically, "What are the odds that Randall [sic] Mills is right? To within a very high degree of accuracy, the odds are zero." Though I expected Park to bash scientific anomalies, I was unprepared to discover the depths of his ignorance about spaceflight and its future. Commenting on his early 1990s testimony before Congress in support of unmanned space missions, he recalls, "I wanted to explain why the era of human space exploration had ended twenty-five-years earlier and was unlikely ever to come back." No future for human presence in space? Is Park for real? He ends his myopic refrain with inept poetry bearing an absurd message, "America's astronauts have been left stranded in low-earth orbit, like passengers waiting beside an abandoned stretch of track for a train that will never come, bypassed by the advance of science." Amateur astronaut Park offers an amazing blooper, "If there was gold in low earth orbit, it would not pay to get it." Astonishing! He apparently does not understand such elementary concepts as the small propulsion energy cost of de-orbiting with rockets and aero-braking, when he makes this and other claims. In the emerging era of commercial space transportation, this Park faux pas will be remembered as a late twentieth century howler, on par with statements by astronomer Simon Newcomb earlier in the century that heavier than air flight was likely to remain impossible. In Park's crusade against manned spaceflight, he even goes after astronaut hero John Glenn: "Both Ham [a chimpanzee aboard an early U.S. space flight] and Glenn would end up in Washington: Glenn in the U.S. Senate, Ham in the national zoo. Ham died a short time later without ever returning to space." He attacks "messianic engineer," Robert Zubrin, who has put forth concrete, well-researched proposals for cost-saving space missions, in his book The Case for Mars. Park says that Zubrin started "his own cult -- the Mars Society." Park mocks the aspirations that led people like Dr. Robert Goddard and so many others this century to work toward the manned exploration of space: "Zubrin had learned his lessons well. The focus is on the dream. His followers feel their feet crunching into the sands of Mars, while the most daunting technical challenges are swept aside with simplistic solutions." On the book jacket Park singles out "magnet therapy" and cold fusion as the epitome of "foolish and fraudulent scientific claims." In the only "experiment" that he actually decides to personally conduct to test any of his opinions, he launches a misguided effort to disprove the alleged therapeutic effectiveness of magnets in contact with the human body. He bought some athletic magnets from a local store, then stuck one on a steel file cabinet. He then inserted sheets of paper under the magnet, finding that at ten sheets the magnet fell off. He exults, "Credit cards and pregnant women are safe! The field of these magnets would hardly extend through the skin, much less penetrate muscles." Park had merely found the point at which static friction (caused by the magnetic force) is insufficient to hold the magnet against the force of gravity. On this basis he concludes that magnetic field would not penetrate into skin! This is completely wrong, as sophomore physics students at MIT, and presumably at the University of Maryland, would know. Park gets an F-grade on that one. "Not that it would make any difference if it did penetrate," he says. Park always has some a priori theoretical insight about why something "can't be." This PR agent for the American Physical Society needs a refresher course in Science 101. Given Park's incompetent assessment of cold fusion and his failures in elementary scientific methodology, we cannot expect a useful appraisal of other controversial areas, such as whether or not there are loopholes in or extensions to classical thermodynamics, whether low-level electromagnetic fields can affect biological systems, the "memory of water" question, or the scientific foundations of alternative medicine. Regardless of their individual merits, Park gives these questions the same brush-off he applies to cold fusion. It is not that one might never find areas of agreement with Park. For example, some of the charlatan-like antics of Dennis Lee of Better World Technologies, which Park chronicles, are appalling and have nothing to do with the serious scientific investigation of anomalous energy phenomena. And Park states that "there is now overwhelming scientific evidence that we ourselves can affect Earth's climate." Some scientists would agree with that; I don't happen to. I side with those atmospheric scientists who believe that computer models do not yet come close to an adequate representation of all the factors that affect climate. On the other side, Park is rather forgiving about such things as government spending for tokamak hot fusion, which is widely regarded as a financially wasteful research boondoggle even by those who have nothing to do with cold fusion. He says absolutely nothing about the ill-fated Superconducting Supercollider (SSC), which was begun and then cancelled, before it could waste even more taxpayer money. We do not hear of the scandalous recent cost overrun at the ICF weapons simulation laser fusion device, which was led by a physicist who was not even honest about his academic credentials. To Park, this waste is apparently "all in the family" -- the kind of money that the white collar welfare, government-funded physics community can be forgiven for wasting. It is tempting to speculate that Park may be suffering from a psychological problem known as projection, or possibly cognitive dissonance. At some level, this confused man with all his years of schooling must realize that he is out of his element in evaluating the cold fusion evidence. He doesn't really know whether the evidence is good or not. Obviously he has not studied it except superficially, yet he has gone far out on a limb in attacking it -- he can't bring himself to turn back. Among other problems, admitting he had been very wrong would call into question his many other judgments, from manned space travel to magnet therapy. He expected that cold fusion would have gone away years ago, but it hasn't. So he creates the myth that the cold fusion field consists of "followers who see what they expect to see." In truth, it is Park who is seeing what he wants to see -- lack of evidence where there is evidence! The following grand assessment by Park of "voodoo" others pertains most properly to him: "While it never pays to underestimate the human capacity for self-deception, they must at some point begin to realize that things are not behaving as they had supposed." It will be cosmic justice for this profoundly foolish, mean-spirited flack for the physics establishment when in the light of scientific advance the bigotry and lies he has turned against others expose him for what he is. - End of Review (Copyright 2000, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.) ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 12:44:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02608; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:41:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:41:30 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200003152002.PAA18585 mercury.mv.net> References: <200003152002.PAA18585 mercury.mv.net> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:41:11 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mallove reviews Park's Voodoo Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xogbw1.0.ge.uL_pu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well done Gene! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud >by Robert L. Park >ISBN: 0-19-513516-6 $25.00 Hardcover, 256 pp. Oxford University Press From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 12:47:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02746; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:42:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:42:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000315154035.0079c350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:40:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "VORTEX" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 2nd submission -- maybe better format. Voodoo review In-Reply-To: <200003152022.PAA24609 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eHkFt3.0.jg.KM_pu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [Gene's version did not fit 80 columns well . . . Don't know why. - JR] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud by Robert L. Park ISBN: 0-19-513516-6 $25.00 Hardcover, 256 pp. Oxford University Press Tentative date for publication: May 2000. Review by Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Tel: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com This review is of a pre-publication galley proof sent to Infinite Energy with a press release on Oxford University Press letterhead mocking cold fusion. (Copyright 2000, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.) Historians of science may well look back on this book as a dying ember from the funeral pyre of late twentieth century establishment physics, which hurtles toward a supposed "theory of everything," while being blissfully ignorant of profound cracks in its very foundations. But author Robert L. Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland, is now riding high. For some years he has been the darling of editors seeking crisp commentary from the chief representative of the American Physical Society (APS), a position he has held since 1982. Whether railing against manned spaceflight, anti-ballistic missile defense, alternative health care, ESP research, UFO investigation, or his favorite whipping topic, cold fusion, you will find Robert Park in top mud-slinging form on the Op Ed pages of The New York Times and The Washington Post, among others. His politicized weekly "What's New" internet science column (www.opa.org/WN) is remarkable in that it is tolerated at all by the APS. Especially since Park, with insufferable chutzpa, ends each column with a fake disclaimer: "Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be." That's pure Park, who hopes that his audience will come to see the world through the filter of the scientific certainties that he and many of his arrogant physics colleagues claim to possess. Dr. Park has now compiled his wisdom in a short volume, in which he claims to have discovered a new kind of science -- "voodoo science" -- the title of his book. His definition of voodoo science is encapsulated in the subtitle, "The Road from Foolishness to Fraud." There is a progression from "honest error" that evolves "from self-delusion to fraud," he says. Further elaborating the definition: "The line between foolishness and fraud is thin. Because it is not always easy to tell when that line is crossed, I use the term voodoo science to cover them all: pathological science, junk science, pseudoscience, and fraudulent science." This is how he says he discovered voodoo science. In the course of his PR work for the APS he "kept bumping up against scientific ideas and claims that are totally, indisputably, extravagantly wrong." He is that certain, three adverbs worth, that many of the things he calls voodoo science cannot be right. More often than not, he draws his conclusions from fundamental theory that is supposedly sacrosanct. Therein lies the fundamental failure of Park and so many of his colleagues in the physics establishment. They have abandoned what little curiosity about scientific experiments that they may have had at the beginning of their scientific careers: they attack data from experiments that at first glance appear to be in conflict with theory, about which they have concluded one of two things: 1) The theory can't possibly need fundamental modification, which might allow the phenomenon to occur or 2) It is inconceivable that existing theory can be applied to allow the phenomenon. It takes a special kind of arrogance to conclude affirmatively on both those points, particularly when both experimental data and theory for an anomalous phenomenon trend strongly against the doubters, cold fusion being a prime example. Park thinks he knows what he and the physics establishment are doing, but he does not. He writes, ". . .no matter how plausible a theory seems to be, experiment gets the final word." For Park, theory rules which experiments he will even look at. Revealing complete ignorance of the bloody battles over paradigm shifts in science (of the very kind he is obstructing!), Park claims, "When better information is available, science textbooks are re-written with hardly a backward glance." Baloney! In Voodoo, Park dismisses cold fusion at its very first mention, referring to it as "the discredited 'cold fusion' claim made several years earlier by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann." He says that a "dwindling band of believers" continue to gather each year "at some swank international resort" in an attempt to "resuscitate" cold fusion. He asks, "Why does this little band so fervently believe in something the rest of the scientific community rejected as fantasy years earlier?" He speculates later, "Perhaps many scientists found in cold fusion relief from boredom." Park works himself up about cold fusion throughout the book and tells us what he really thinks of cold fusion: "On June 6, 1989, just seventy-five days after the Salt Lake City announcement, cold fusion had clearly crossed the line from foolishness to fraud." He states that Fleischmann and Pons "exaggerated or fabricated their evidence." (He only speculates whether cold fusion researcher Dr. James Patterson of Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. may have "crossed the line from foolishness to fraud.") He complains that no helium-4 results were forthcoming from Fleischmann and Pons by June 1989, ergo, cold fusion is a fraud. Since at least 1991, Park has been informed by fellow APS scientists, such as Dr. Scott Chubb, about helium-4 detection in cathodes and in the gas streams of cold fusion experiments. These independent experiments have been published in the U.S. and Japan in peer-reviewed journals. There is no doubt that Park knows this. Voodoo contains no mention of this data, an egregious fraud by Park on journalists and the general public. Park has not troubled himself to study the very data which he demanded many years ago as proof of cold fusion, e.g. the helium-4 nuclear ash data, even after this data made it into the peer-reviewed literature. "You don't have to worry about the heat if there is no helium," was his statement to me in the spring of 1991, recorded in my book, Fire from Ice. On June 14, 1989, in the Chronicle of Higher Education, Park opined, "The most frustrating aspect of this controversy is that it could have been settled weeks ago. If fusion occurs at the level that the two scientists claim, then helium, the end product of fusion, must be present in the used palladium cathodes." Apart from his gross error of ignoring the helium that might be in the cover gas coming from surface reactions (such cold fusion helium had been detected in 1991 and later), it is notable that Park has never mentioned any of the published literature on helium in cold fusion experiments. On the issue of cold fusion Park has traveled, in his lexicon, from foolishness to fraud. Though he has not troubled himself with inconvenient facts, such as experimental evidence of robust character that supports cold fusion, he states preposterously: "Ten years after the announcement of cold fusion, results are no more persuasive than those in the first weeks." He rewrites cold fusion history with ludicrous bloopers designed to entertain: "How, I wondered, could Pons and Fleischmann have been working on their cold fusion idea for five years, as they claimed, without going to the library to find out what was already known about hydrogen in metals?" Electrochemist Fellow of the Royal Society Martin Fleischmann not knowing a lot about hydrogen in metals? A bit much to suggest, even for an unethical obfuscator like Park. Park is the one who should have gone to the library. He would have discovered that leading cold fusion scientists like Fleischmann and Bockris wrote the textbooks about hydrogen in metals. Fleischmann's outstanding research in this area earned him a Fellowship in the Royal Society, arguably the world's most prestigious scientific society. In other contexts Park claims allegiance to established theory and the expertise of leading authorities; in this case, he does not even realize who the authorities are. If Park doesn't get his information about cold fusion from technical papers, the normal approach in science, from where does he get it? Apparently he is briefed by fact-resistant critic Dr. Douglas Morrison of CERN, who has attended the international cold fusion conferences where he asks mostly obtuse questions, proving that he, like Park, has not read the cold fusion literature. Morrison has "kept an eye on cold fusion for the rest of us," as Park puts it. The result of all this is to have Morrison, the prime purveyor of the "pathological science" theory of cold fusion, passing misinformation to Park, who then jazzes it up with snide remarks suited to the Washington beltway crowd. Morrison is the only skeptic to actually publish a paper that attempts to come to grips with quantitative issues of cold fusion calorimetry and electrochemistry. Every paragraph in his paper included an elementary mistake. A few examples: he subtracted the same factor twice. He claimed that Fleischmann and Pons used "a complicated non-linear regression analysis" method -- which they did not use. He recommended another method instead -- the one, in fact, they did use. He confused power (watts) with energy (joules). He claimed that hydrogen escaping from a 0.0044 mole palladium hydride might produce 144 watts of power and 1.1 million joules of energy, whereas the textbooks say the maximum power from this would be 0.005 watts, and a simple calculation shows that the most energy it could produce is 650 joules. This is the "expert" Park relies upon for news of cold fusion! And Park well knows the propaganda value of turning a serious subject into a joke. In his account of the early days of cold fusion he observes, "Cold Fusion was becoming a joke. In Washington that is usually fatal." After assaulting the main body of cold fusion research, Park singles out for attack Dr. Randell Mills of BlackLight Power Inc. (see Infinite Energy coverage, Issue No. 17 pp. 21-35 and Issue No. 29, pp. 40-41). He says that Mills did not offer "any experimental evidence" for his claims of excess energy caused by catalytic hydrino formation. Park does not discuss the multiple channels of experimental and astrophysical data that Mills has cited to defend his theory. He covers up the serious, positive results that the NASA Lewis Research Center published in its official report on the Mills replication. But Park, at his core, argues mainly from theory: "But those who bet on hydrinos are betting against the most firmly established and successful laws of physics." Mr. Certain asks rhetorically, "What are the odds that Randall [sic] Mills is right? To within a very high degree of accuracy, the odds are zero." Though I expected Park to bash scientific anomalies, I was unprepared to discover the depths of his ignorance about spaceflight and its future. Commenting on his early 1990s testimony before Congress in support of unmanned space missions, he recalls, "I wanted to explain why the era of human space exploration had ended twenty-five-years earlier and was unlikely ever to come back." No future for human presence in space? Is Park for real? He ends his myopic refrain with inept poetry bearing an absurd message, "America's astronauts have been left stranded in low-earth orbit, like passengers waiting beside an abandoned stretch of track for a train that will never come, bypassed by the advance of science." Amateur astronaut Park offers an amazing blooper, "If there was gold in low earth orbit, it would not pay to get it." Astonishing! He apparently does not understand such elementary concepts as the small propulsion energy cost of de-orbiting with rockets and aero-braking, when he makes this and other claims. In the emerging era of commercial space transportation, this Park faux pas will be remembered as a late twentieth century howler, on par with statements by astronomer Simon Newcomb earlier in the century that heavier than air flight was likely to remain impossible. In Park's crusade against manned spaceflight, he even goes after astronaut hero John Glenn: "Both Ham [a chimpanzee aboard an early U.S. space flight] and Glenn would end up in Washington: Glenn in the U.S. Senate, Ham in the national zoo. Ham died a short time later without ever returning to space." He attacks "messianic engineer," Robert Zubrin, who has put forth concrete, well-researched proposals for cost-saving space missions, in his book The Case for Mars. Park says that Zubrin started "his own cult -- the Mars Society." Park mocks the aspirations that led people like Dr. Robert Goddard and so many others this century to work toward the manned exploration of space: "Zubrin had learned his lessons well. The focus is on the dream. His followers feel their feet crunching into the sands of Mars, while the most daunting technical challenges are swept aside with simplistic solutions." On the book jacket Park singles out "magnet therapy" and cold fusion as the epitome of "foolish and fraudulent scientific claims." In the only "experiment" that he actually decides to personally conduct to test any of his opinions, he launches a misguided effort to disprove the alleged therapeutic effectiveness of magnets in contact with the human body. He bought some athletic magnets from a local store, then stuck one on a steel file cabinet. He then inserted sheets of paper under the magnet, finding that at ten sheets the magnet fell off. He exults, "Credit cards and pregnant women are safe! The field of these magnets would hardly extend through the skin, much less penetrate muscles." Park had merely found the point at which static friction (caused by the magnetic force) is insufficient to hold the magnet against the force of gravity. On this basis he concludes that magnetic field would not penetrate into skin! This is completely wrong, as sophomore physics students at MIT, and presumably at the University of Maryland, would know. Park gets an F-grade on that one. "Not that it would make any difference if it did penetrate," he says. Park always has some a priori theoretical insight about why something "can't be." This PR agent for the American Physical Society needs a refresher course in Science 101. Given Park's incompetent assessment of cold fusion and his failures in elementary scientific methodology, we cannot expect a useful appraisal of other controversial areas, such as whether or not there are loopholes in or extensions to classical thermodynamics, whether low-level electromagnetic fields can affect biological systems, the "memory of water" question, or the scientific foundations of alternative medicine. Regardless of their individual merits, Park gives these questions the same brush-off he applies to cold fusion. It is not that one might never find areas of agreement with Park. For example, some of the charlatan-like antics of Dennis Lee of Better World Technologies, which Park chronicles, are appalling and have nothing to do with the serious scientific investigation of anomalous energy phenomena. And Park states that "there is now overwhelming scientific evidence that we ourselves can affect Earth's climate." Some scientists would agree with that; I don't happen to. I side with those atmospheric scientists who believe that computer models do not yet come close to an adequate representation of all the factors that affect climate. On the other side, Park is rather forgiving about such things as government spending for tokamak hot fusion, which is widely regarded as a financially wasteful research boondoggle even by those who have nothing to do with cold fusion. He says absolutely nothing about the ill-fated Superconducting Supercollider (SSC), which was begun and then cancelled, before it could waste even more taxpayer money. We do not hear of the scandalous recent cost overrun at the ICF weapons simulation laser fusion device, which was led by a physicist who was not even honest about his academic credentials. To Park, this waste is apparently "all in the family" -- the kind of money that the white collar welfare, government-funded physics community can be forgiven for wasting. It is tempting to speculate that Park may be suffering from a psychological problem known as projection, or possibly cognitive dissonance. At some level, this confused man with all his years of schooling must realize that he is out of his element in evaluating the cold fusion evidence. He doesn't really know whether the evidence is good or not. Obviously he has not studied it except superficially, yet he has gone far out on a limb in attacking it -- he can't bring himself to turn back. Among other problems, admitting he had been very wrong would call into question his many other judgments, from manned space travel to magnet therapy. He expected that cold fusion would have gone away years ago, but it hasn't. So he creates the myth that the cold fusion field consists of "followers who see what they expect to see." In truth, it is Park who is seeing what he wants to see -- lack of evidence where there is evidence! The following grand assessment by Park of "voodoo" others pertains most properly to him: "While it never pays to underestimate the human capacity for self-deception, they must at some point begin to realize that things are not behaving as they had supposed." It will be cosmic justice for this profoundly foolish, mean-spirited flack for the physics establishment when in the light of scientific advance the bigotry and lies he has turned against others expose him for what he is. - End of Review (Copyright 2000, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 12:55:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08146; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:51:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:51:43 -0800 Message-Id: <200003152051.PAA04507 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Mallove reviews Park's Voodoo Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:43:33 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"qdnR83.0.8_1.UV_pu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Well done Gene! > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Thanks. It was tough wallowing in the pig pen of Parkian foolishness, but I'm glad I did. Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 16:39:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27137; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:36:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:36:25 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:48:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20000316004808406.AAA287 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"3Kf8n2.0.vd6.7o2qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack writes: >Correction noted: >Roger Bacon RE-INVENTED gun powder while adherimg to the >theory that matter consisted of earth, air, fire and water. > >I wonder what the Chinese theory was at the time of the >invention of gun powder. (Some people collect string; >I collect theories.) > >Jack Smith >From what I recollect, the Chinese man who invented gunpower blew himself up in the process. He did leave notes for the recipe in his house which said that he was searching for an elixer for life. Ironic, isn't it? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 17:34:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15148; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:30:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:30:28 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: US-Russian Nuclear Waste Storage Project Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:42:25 -0500 Message-ID: <20000316014225031.AAA260 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"2gUsO1.0.ci3.qa3qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, More on Russian-US nuclear waste "storage" project. http://ens.lycos.com/ens/mar2000/2000L-03-13-07.html http://www.greenpeace.org/~nuclear/waste/russianwaste.html Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 19:41:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22565; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:39:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:39:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000315223128.0080a340 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:31:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills paper in Fusion Technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000413130920.0124a684 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000313131832.007eda40 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000313123924.007997e0 pop.mindspring.com> <200003131648.LAA20000 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6uvQl3.0.VW5.cT5qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:09 PM 4/13/00 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >At 01:18 PM 3/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >>>Simple open-air >>>isoperibolic is indeed error-prone, > >>Although you minimize the need for controls, when done correctly, >>it is not-error prone. > >It can provide accurate results...but it can also produce large errors. Scott. Your statement is untrue when measurements are carefully made with full controls and cooling curves. As for large errors, please note that the date-stamp on your computer is off by one entire month and now reads "April" when it is only March. ;-)X Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 15 23:07:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA06209; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:04:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:04:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000315152024.0079fa50 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000314181407.007aac20 pop.mindspring.com> <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:04:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Resent-Message-ID: <"fudHK3.0.rW1.MU8qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{The word I used was *insinuate*, Jed. The word refers to a process of >>subtly and artfully infusing an idea into the mind of another, without >>coming right out and baldly asserting it as a fact. . . . > >Okay: I never said, insinuated, thought, or imagined that Mills is a fraud. >Scientifically speaking, that is. His business practices stink, and they >often seem suspicious or at least misguided, but his scientific claims are >clean as a whistle as far as I can judge. That isn't far. Scott Little has >some doubts about his calorimetry. If he gets around to explaining these >doubts, I might defer to his judgement. > >Your insuations of my alledged insinuations are damn nonsense. All this >stuff you quoted are my statements about his business practices, his >loony-tune sales strategy, and his spooky personality, not his science. >These are completely different subjects, a fact which you seem to have >difficulty grasping. ***{Let me see if I've got this straight: when you are quoted suggesting that Mills is dishonest and insane, your defense is that you were only referring to his business practices? (If there were ever a distinction without a difference, that would have to be it! Wow!) --MJ}*** >>***{Hollow words, Jed. You may think you can flame Mills for years and >>then, when it begins to appear that he is correct, that you can reverse >>field and no one will notice, but you are mistaken. . . . > >I have only reversed field on Mills once. I used to admire him and his >work, particularly after the 1992 MIT presentations and my discussions with >Farrell. After that, Mills repeatedly promised there would be products, >demonstrations, publications, sales, and he broke his promise again, and >again, and again. I became fed up with him. > >You accuse me of "insinuating." That means: "1. To introduce ideas >gradually and insidiously" or "2.To introduce or insert (oneself) by subtle >and artful means." (American Heritage) You are mistaken. I am never >gradual, insiduous or subtle. I have many faults, but these are not among >them. I always say exactly what I mean, as clearly as I can. In this case >you seem to be having difficulty understanding, so let me state this one >more time for the record: > >The heat is probably real. The other claims could be real or hot air for >all I know. As for the man, I would not trust him as far as I can throw >him, because he has a long, well-documented history of lying through his >teeth. That is to say, he missed deadlines seven years in a row without a >word of explanation. ***{So "lying through his teeth" = "missing deadlines without explanation"? Amazing. (If the logical leap were an event in the Olympics, you would definitely take the gold medal!) --MJ}*** As for his business acumen, judging by the strategies >he has made public so far, and his misuse of investment funds in real >estate, I would not put him in charge of sales from a street pushcart. I >will grant he has attracted capital so far. I suppose this is because the >product is good, but I have no inside knowledge to confirm that supposition. > >Okay? Are you satisfied with my clarity now? Do you detect any more hidden >"insinuations"? I hope not! Go ahead and fax that to him if you like, and >both of you go to hell. ***{Tsk, tsk. --MJ}*** > >And by the way, if the guy really was a second Einstein, I expect he would >be more like Einstein #1. He would realize his own limitations and his >fundamental ignorance. Real geniuses are humbled by Nature, even if they >are not humble by nature. ***{As I have already noted, the only way to decide whether Mills is a genius is to determine whether his theories are correct. Your speculations about the personalities of "real geniuses" do not move us a single step in that direction. Indeed, by poisoning the atmosphere of discourse within this group, they have if anything quite the opposite effect. (Why would Mills come forward to discuss anything on vortex, given that you are prepared to hurl the same sorts of pejoratives at him here that he would receive if he were to discuss his theories on sci.physics.fusion?) --MJ}*** > >- Jed ***{And if he *doesn't* come forward, then he is "lying through his teeth," right? --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 06:45:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27248; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:34:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 06:34:58 -0800 Message-ID: <38D0ED2B.56C0E5D9 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:18:19 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex CC: freenrg Subject: On patent US06025810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1ahxX.0.Yf6.I4Fqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, If you are examined the antenna diagram (page 6), you may found it surprisingly simple and easy to construct. As author suggest, it is possible to replace external coils L1 and L3 with PM's , just with loudspeaker magnets. This configuration, and explanation of the device work make sense to me. First, heat mobilize or excite atoms, on the filament and both the gas inside the lamp. Then the strong electric field and the shaped magnetic field will interact with movements of neutre or ionized atoms inside the lamp. Maybe the electrodes will emit electrons on ambient pressure, by the help of heat. Now you have something like as electron or ion accelerator. Author named also the HV wires as accelerator. Great! Now how it signals above c? I assume the transmitted signals are not electromagnetic, but long range effects produced by atomic or subatomic particles. Very nice idea indeed. We had used to be working electrons to create electromagnetic fields in order to communicate. This is becaus e the electron mobility is very easy, producing electricity is easy and all the related stuff. But may hadrons have exceptional properties which leptons does not, like the "strong force". Hadrons are more complex structures than leptons, not only main bu ilding blocks of matter but powerful devices, if driven properly may produce macroscopic functions or fields using the advantage of high density of energy they have, which are not available to electrons or leptons. I am not conclusive about usage of hadro ns on this device, this is for just emphasizing the idea using atomic/subatomic particles beyond their coulombic properties for generating long range fields. In the other hand, a major tendency on high energy physics is using extra high order dimensions to model subatomic structure, like superstrings, branes, and many strange stuff that I dont understand. It appears that these extra dimensions are generally po stulated as planck length tiny loops (compacted dimensions) embedded in the structure of the subatomic particles, especially inside quarks and their constituents :) It would be even more exciting the device if the long range fields that I hypothesis would be actually gravitational field. the only long range field know currently mainly produced (or exclusively) by hadrons. Recent work of Fran De Aquino shows the gravi tation fields are manageable by using ELF or more generally connected the heat phenomena. Whether these are gravitational fields or other long range fields which may embed extra dimensions (really!), the speed of light barrier of special relivity would not pose a problem, as such a phenomenon lies clearly outside of the special relativity fram e. Great introduction, isn't it? :) Ok, now we have a device (the antenna) having an thermodynamic exciter (the lamp), electric and magnetic fields to help to align the vibrations of atoms and finally an modulator to switch the operation of the device. It seems to me the magnetic field of t he signal injection coil (L2) used for disturbing the regime of the device, phenomenon need to creation of long range fields are occurs when the magnetic field of L2 is off, and when on, the operation cease. Just a typical modulator. But there is major constraint on this logic. Author described the antenna as both transmitter and both as receiver. My logic is fine here as a transmitter. In order the device works as a receiver, far fields coming from the xmitter would modify the regime of atomic or subatomic particles vibrating, and this would change the electrical, magnetic property of the medium belong the sense coil. I did not examined the electronic circuitry for the moment for clarify the problem. Of course, this is one of the many possibilities of the working principle of the device. but just model is enough to show it would be not be an imagination af a crazy inventor. Reference: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=US06025810__ Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 07:02:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05333; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 07:00:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 07:00:52 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316095934.007a4c80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:59:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000315152024.0079fa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000314181407.007aac20 pop.mindspring.com> <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gDSId1.0.EJ1.aSFqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Let me see if I've got this straight: when you are quoted suggesting >that Mills is dishonest and insane, your defense is that you were only >referring to his business practices? Exactly. Like many other people, he appears to be honest in his professional sphere, and a jerk outside of it. A doctor or scientist may be scrupulously honest in his work, but he may cheat on his wife and lie on his tax returns. Actually, for all I know, he science might be crooked too. I cannot judge, except for the calorimetry, which looks pretty good. The only thing about Mills I can judge are his business practices. However, people here who understand his papers have never said there might academic fraud or diddled data, and the standards at Fusion Technology are high, so I suppose the papers are okay. I do not endorse them! At the APS conference, Robert Park told me that Mills' investors from the West Coast Power Companies never performed independent experiments to verify his claims. He said the power company people consulted with him (Park) and told him everything they had done, and it was only a "paper" review -- no hands-on measurements. I do not believe Robert Park, but on the other hand even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and I have no information to the contrary. It is plausible that they did not perform due diligence investigations. In that case, their investment could be a terrible mistake. Until I see a report from their lab describing their own independent, successful replication, like the 1990 AMOCO CF experiment, I will not be able to judge the wisdom of their investment. >Indeed, by poisoning the atmosphere of discourse within >this group, they have if anything quite the opposite effect. I am not "poisoning the atmosphere." I am merely reporting his words and actions. This discussion is not about me, although you want to talk about only me. (I notice you do not actually try to defend Mills! You wouldn't want to talk about him.) I wasn't the one who repeatedly claimed he would do something, and then disappeared without explanation. I have not changed the name & address of my company every couple of years. I have not raised millions of dollars for R&D, year after year, without selling a single dollar's worth of product. I did not go on CBC and call myself smarter than God. I am not threatening to sue Nobel laureates because they disagree with me and think I'm nuts. Mills is the only person who makes Mills look like an ass. You say I am the bad guy for talking about the public record. Let's keep secrets instead. Let's be loyal servants to every crank, every fool, jerk and two-bit con man who calls himself an O-U scientist. You defend Newman on that basis. Say, let's promote his scams in public. Don't tell anyone he has a 20-year track record of dismal failure, he cannot use basic instruments, he has no idea what a dynamometer does, he has never been replicated, he will not let qualified people near the prototypes during his public "demonstrations," and he stole $70,000 from investors. This is common knowledge, but if I talk about it I am "poisoning the atmosphere" and "hurling pejoratives." It's my fault Newman steals money. Oh my, let us not hurt him. We might prevent vital research! There is one chance in a million he might be on to something, after all, even though he will never reveal it. These people should be allowed to get away with anything so long as they cover themselves with a silk banner labeled: "SCIENTIST, GENIUS & FRIEND OF HUMANITY." Their genius transcends the normal bounds of social ethics. See F. W. Nietzsche, "Beyond Good and Evil," or F. Dostoevsky, "Crime and Punishment." >(Why would >Mills come forward to discuss anything on vortex . . . Who would want him? Only a fool would believe him. You can read what he has to say on his web pages. >(Why would >Mills come forward to discuss anything on vortex, given that you are >prepared to hurl the same sorts of pejoratives at him here that he would >receive if he were to discuss his theories on sci.physics.fusion?) --MJ}*** You know darn well that he could discuss his theories here until the cows come home, and I would never respond. I have nothing to say about his theories. If he comes here and asserts the wisdom of pissing away high tech investment capital on New Jersey real estate, I will have something to say. You call it "hurling pejoratives" when I cite well-know facts about the man's behavior. If you think his business strategies are hunky-dory, you should not be upset because I describe these strategies. Mills himself probably brags about stuff I accuse him of. You think it is perfectly okay for the guy to strut his ego on national TV, whereas I think that alienates people and makes investors run for the door, and I think it is sick-minded. You apparently believe it is okay to make extravagant promises to investors year after year, reneging without a word. I think it is unethical and self-destructive. There is no dispute about facts here, only different opinions. We have different standards of behavior, and different business strategies. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 08:40:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11594; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:38:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:38:49 -0800 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Evanescent waves in plasma and US6025810 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:36:07 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"eTRis.0.0r2.OuGqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. The circuit in some way reminds me of work done on measuring the speed of evanescent waves in active media such as plasmas and lasing materials. Such experiments are claimed to show superluminal effects. Unfortunately, I've no references at hand, perhaps I'll dig thru the archives and post something later. Some interesting speculation on Hamdi's part, I've not had much luck finding evidence of the inventor on the internet. Anyone else? I suppose one could snail mail him... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 08:59:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19417; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:58:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:58:15 -0800 Message-ID: <003301bf8fcd$0ca26460$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: "Sparky" , "Vortex" Subject: Re: Evanescent waves in plasma and US6025810 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:55:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"WuCZQ.0.Jl4.dAHqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keith, > >The circuit in some way reminds me of work done >on measuring the speed of evanescent waves in active >media such as plasmas and lasing materials. Such >experiments are claimed to show superluminal effects. >Unfortunately, I've no references at hand, perhaps >I'll dig thru the archives and post something later. Wold that be the X-wave work of Rodriguez? A long paper in Found. Phys. is what I remember. > >Some interesting speculation on Hamdi's part, I've >not had much luck finding evidence of the inventor >on the internet. Anyone else? I suppose one could >snail mail him... I found an email address for him but the mail bounced. I guess snail mail it is... Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 09:19:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25769; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:16:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:16:41 -0800 Message-ID: <003a01bf8fcf$a099cee0$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: On patent US06025810 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:14:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"drRuq2.0.ZI6.vRHqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hamdi, > >If you are examined the antenna diagram (page 6), you may found it surprisingly simple and easy to construct. As author suggest, it is possible to replace external coils L1 and L3 with PM's , just with loudspeaker magnets. > >This configuration, and explanation of the device work make sense to me. It does to me to a certain extent. At least it fits in with other oddball gadgets I've looked at. The thing that comes to mind most is the Charles Brush's experiments correlating heat and gravity (Peter Fred has recently got on the same tangent but \his experiments don't seem to be as well controlled). First, heat mobilize or excite atoms, on the filament and both the gas inside the lamp. Then the strong electric field and the shaped magnetic field will interact with movements of neutre or ionized atoms inside the lamp. Maybe the electrodes will emit electrons on ambient pressure, by the help of heat. > >Now you have something like as electron or ion accelerator. Author named also the HV wires as accelerator. Great! > >Now how it signals above c? > >I assume the transmitted signals are not electromagnetic, but long range effects produced by atomic or subatomic particles. Very nice idea indeed. We had used to be working electrons to create electromagnetic fields in order to communicate. This is because the electron mobility is very easy, producing electricity is easy and all the related stuff. But may hadrons have exceptional properties which leptons does not, like the "strong force". Hadrons are more complex structures than leptons, not only main building blocks of matter but powerful devices, if driven properly may produce macroscopic functions or fields using the advantage of high density of energy they have, which are not available to electrons or leptons. I am not conclusive about usage of hadrons on this device, this is for just emphasizing the idea using atomic/subatomic particles beyond their coulombic properties for generating long range fields. I think you are on the right track. As is described in ZPE research hadrons would interact with the ZPF in unusual ways. And there are other devices that use oscillation of hadrons to transmit signals at a distance. Patrick Flanagan's tensor beam transmitter used a piece of metal kept under tension as the transmitter. This was fed the signal to be transmitted. Details of the receiver are sketchy. Also some of the "scalar" devices of Hodowanec use the opposed magnetic field configuration. Scalar purists consider this not to be "true scalars" :-) I won't comment on what I thin about the scalar idea, but the physical similarity is there. >> >It would be even more exciting the device if the long range fields that I hypothesis would be actually gravitational field. the only long range field know currently mainly produced (or exclusively) by hadrons. Recent work of Fran De Aquino shows the gravitation fields are manageable by using ELF or more generally connected the heat phenomena. Peter Fred has to be given precedence for bringing up this subject again. And I am extremely skeptical that De Aquino's device works by ELF, if it works at all. ELF would have close to zero transmission efficiency with his sort of setup. > >Of course, this is one of the many possibilities of the working principle of the device. but just model is enough to show it would be not be an imagination af a crazy inventor. Yes, I agree it is not as crazy as it looks. The only thing is to build two and test them. Fred > > >Reference: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=US06025810__ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 09:19:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26305; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:17:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:17:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316121633.007a2820 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:16:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Voodoo review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qh1041.0.tQ6.xSHqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene wrote: Morrison is the only skeptic to actually publish a paper that attempts to come to grips with quantitative issues of cold fusion calorimetry and electrochemistry. Every paragraph in his paper included an elementary mistake. A few examples: he subtracted the same factor twice. I should point out that this is a wee bit inaccurate. The authors of the General Electric paper made this mistake. Morrison overlooked it in his critique of Pons & Fleischmann, which he based on a confused melange consisting of the G.E. paper, misinformation published on sci.physics.fusion by Tom Droege, and a U. Utah press release. (Nothing like original sources!) He should have known about this mistake, because it is common knowledge and many references to it have been made by Fleischmann, McKubre and others. Morrison was in the audience on at least two occasions I recall at ICCF conferences when Fleischmann described the error briefly and showed a graph of the projected result. According to the GE formula, ordinary palladium hydrides absorb energy indefinitely, in violation of Second Law of Thermodynamics. Morrison should stay awake during lectures. GE should try graphing their equations before they publish, and they should retract these cockamamie claims. Note that when you read their paper carefully and strip away the verbiage, you see they admit there was excess heat even after they accidentally subtracted too much from the baseline. Morrison overlooked that, too. He wins no prizes for diligence. The paper in question is R.H. Wilson, J.W. Bray, P.G. Kosky, H.B. Vakil, and F.G Will, J. Electroanal. Chem. 332 (1992) 1. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 09:19:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26629; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:18:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:18:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.108.150 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330EB mailserver.omnikron.com> References: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330EB mailserver.omnikron.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:17:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: New Mills paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"9bwrE3.0.zV6.RTHqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Mills has written a new paper that gives a more readable explanation of how >his theory is derived from Schrodinger and why he thinks QM is the special >statistical case of his more general semiclassical theory: > >http://www.blacklightpower.com/derivative.pdf > >It doesn't deal sufficiently with the Big Issue (which is he doesn't >directly deal with all of the consequences of the banishment of the >uncertainty principle) IMO but it's worth a read. I read this paper. I would say that it was in standard crackpot form if I were not worried about being sued. So I will just say that the paper shows no valid derivations of any sort. Mills starts out with the massless Klien-Gordon equation with no potential as is standard in all of his theoretical developments. Three problems here are that the Klien-Gordon equation describes bosons and the electron is a fermion, the mass of the electron is not zero, and an electron orbiting a proton is under the influence of a potential. Having started out with a totally inappropriate equation, Mills then switches, without any explanation at all, to the correct Schrodinger equation with the correct mass and potential. The use of the correct Schrodinger equation then turns out to be nothing but pure misdirection. Mills just makes some nonsense arguments about appropriate boundary conditions and in no way uses the results to demonstrate his sub ground state. He simply switches back to his previous bogus results. Nothing from the Schrodinger equation had any effect on his result. Following is an outline of the old and new Mills paper. Old Mills paper: Use the massless Klien-Gordon equation with no potential (totally bogus for an electron orbiting a proton). Do a nonsense derivation to get the sub ground state. New Mills paper: Use the massless Klien-Gordon equation with no potential (totally bogus for an electron orbiting a proton). Switch to the Schrodinger equation, make some nonsense arguments, and derive no results that are used in any way to show the sub ground state. Switch back to the previous bogus work in the old paper and give the results for the sub ground state without any use of the Schrodinger equation. This is truly bizarre. Mills seems to think that he can take his previous nonsense work, which used the wrong equation, insert a description of the correct equation but not use it in the derivation, and fool the reader into thinking he has used the correct equation. It is amazing that Mills thinks that the intelligence of the readers of the paper would be so low that they would be fooled by this crude misdirection. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 09:44:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27148; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:39:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:39:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38D11C51.45EF8538 eskimo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:39:29 -0800 From: Robert Brady X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Nature of Gravity Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BE900EA4F59E69EB2E9A156F" Resent-Message-ID: <"h_nVg1.0.0e6.InHqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BE900EA4F59E69EB2E9A156F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I placed a paper on my website which tries to explain some general thoughts about gravity and what may be fruitful areas for future research. It is at http://www.eskimo.com/~rebrady/Gravity.html Bob --------------BE900EA4F59E69EB2E9A156F Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="rebrady.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Robert Brady Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rebrady.vcf" begin:vcard n:Brady;Bob x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.eskimo.com/~rebrady adr:;;;1304 251st Avenue SE;Sammamish, WA;98029; version:2.1 email;internet:rebrady eskimo.com x-mozilla-cpt:;-29120 fn:Bob Brady end:vcard --------------BE900EA4F59E69EB2E9A156F-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 10:09:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03214; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:06:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:06:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:05:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"o45DG1.0.-n.wAIqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am tired of arguing about Mills' business, and I am sure all readers are fed up hearing from me. Let me change the subject and make a request. Will someone who has sufficient knowledge of chemistry please look at the BLP website (http://www.blacklightpower.com) and discuss these hydrino verification tests. The tests are listed as follows, quote: The company has contracted with 20 independent labs utilizing 25 different analytical methods to verify its own experimental work. A number of these labs and tests are summarized in the table below. Analytical Laboratory Analytical Test Performed Lehigh University X-ray Photoelectron Spectroscopy (XPS) Virginia Tech Raman Spectroscopy Charles Evans & Associates East TOFSIMS, XPS, EDS, Scanning Electron Spectroscopy Charles Evans & Associates West TOFSIMS Xerox TOFSIMS, XPS * Physical Electronics, Inc. TOFSIMS Spectral Data Services Proton & K NMR Surface Science Associates FTIR IC Laboratories XRD Ricerca, Inc. LC/MS PerSeptive Biosystems ESITOFMS INP EUV Spectroscopy Galbraith Laboratories Elemental Analysis Franklin & Marshall College XRD Pennsylvania State University Calvet calorimetry, XRD TA Instruments TGA/DTA Northeastern University Mossbauer Spectroscopy M-Scan Inc. FABMSMS, ESIMS, Solids Probe Magnetic Sector Mass Spectroscopy Micromass ESITOFMS Southwest Research Institute Solids Probe and Direct Exposure Probe Magnetic Sector Mass Spectroscopy BlackLight Power UV and EUV Spectroscopy, Cryogenic Gas Chromatography, Thermal Decomposition/Gas Chromatography, Solids Probe Quadrapole Mass Spectroscopy, MS of Gasses, Calvet and Heat Loss Calorimetry * TOFSIMS and XPS data were acquired at Xerox Corporation during evaluation fo [sic] these instruments which were purchased by BLP. Without going into the technical details, can someone please address three simple questions: 1. Are these valid tests of the hypotheses? 2. Can the results be explained by conventional physics, without handwaving? 3. Can you speculate as to why M-Scan Inc., Micro-Mass and Xerox are not going out of their minds with excitement and launching their own hydrino venture? (Or are they?!?) It seems to me they should look at the results and see something anomalous and potentially exciting. Let me speculate, based on perfect ignorance of the technical issues. (This should be fun; I feel like Dick Blue.) Perhaps Mills parcels out the research to different labs in such a way that each individual lab sees something that can be explained conventionally, but the results as a whole indicates Radical New Physics. And Mills also hypnotizes these outside researchers to prevent them from reading his web site, putting two and two together, and setting up in competition with him. Maybe he doesn't tell them where the hydrinos are coming from. That has to be nonsense! So what is happening here? Maybe someone who understands the chemistry should contact these labs and get their side of the story. I would love to hear what they think of their own results, and whether they agree that Mills is justified in citing their expertise to justify his theory, and to promote his company with investors. I will bet they are nervous about that. They should be nervous. There might be liability here if the investment goes belly up. Mike Carrell told me that a chemist presented with a test tube of hydrinos would have in his hands proof of an anomaly. It would be proof which would not go away, unlike excess heat. Fair enough. In that case, why aren't they doing cartwheels downs the halls at Southwest Research Institute? Will someone call them and find out, please. Let me know if you hear maniac laughter, chinese firecrackers, drums, bells, and shouts of "Eureka!" in the background. Enquiring minds want to know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 11:00:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30755; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:56:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:56:56 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:56:24 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA30677 Resent-Message-ID: <"L127J3.0.IW7.rvIqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Do you suppose that Mills had them sign non-disclosure documents (scarcasm intended)? This is a standard procedure where potentially proprietary information is involved. Ron On 16-Mar-00, Jed Rothwell wrote: JR> In that case, why aren't they JR> doing cartwheels downs the halls at Southwest Research Institute? Will JR> someone call them and find out, please. Let me know if you hear maniac JR> laughter, chinese firecrackers, drums, bells, and shouts of "Eureka!" in JR> the background. JR> JR> Enquiring minds want to know. JR> JR> - Jed JR> -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 11:32:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11415; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:31:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:31:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316142944.0079c440 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:29:44 -0500 To: "R. Wormus" , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WrKtS.0.Ho2.qPJqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R. Wormus wrote: >Do you suppose that Mills had them sign non-disclosure documents (scarcasm >intended)? This is a standard procedure where potentially proprietary >information is involved. Oops. I should have thought of that. He probably did - sarcasm not intended. He did plaster the company names on his website. Potential investors will be miffed if they call these places and are told "we cannot confirm or deny that." Anyway, my plan for calling companies to listen for firecrackers and oompah marching bands in the background was a joke (mostly), but if someone would address the first two questions I would appreciate it. (Um . . . Do they call in oompah marching bands at places like Xerox?) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 11:47:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17198; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:45:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:45:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316143605.00811950 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:36:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zVohl.0.eC4.RdJqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:05 PM 3/16/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Let me speculate, based on perfect ignorance of the technical issues. (This >should be fun; I feel like Dick Blue.) Perhaps Mills parcels out the >research to different labs in such a way that each individual lab sees >something that can be explained conventionally, but the results as a whole >indicates Radical New Physics. And Mills also hypnotizes these outside >researchers to prevent them from reading his web site, putting two and two >together, and setting up in competition with him. Maybe he doesn't tell >them where the hydrinos are coming from. What projection. " ..hypnotizes these outside researchers .." ROTFLOL ====================================================== >Maybe someone who understands the chemistry should contact these labs and >get their side of the story. I would love to hear what they think of their >own results, and whether they agree that Mills is justified in citing their >expertise to justify his theory, and to promote his company with investors. >I will bet they are nervous about that. They should be nervous. There might >be liability here if the investment goes belly up. More attacks on BLP. Based upon what, Mr. Rothwell? You admit, grasshopper, that you have not read his papers, nor thought long, carefully and scientifically about his work, so why should "(t)hey ... be nervous"? and why all your endless attacks? Is Mills to be your next Meyer? (Inquiring minds want to know.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 12:05:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25064; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:02:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:02:28 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330F8 mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: New Mills paper Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:04:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"oOAym3.0.Y76.JtJqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Larry Wharton writes: >I would say that it was in standard crackpot >form if I were not worried about being sued. He does write like he thinks he's Moses. > So I will just say that >the paper shows no valid derivations of any sort. Mills starts out >with the massless Klien-Gordon equation with no potential as is >standard in all of his theoretical developments. Three problems here >are that the Klien-Gordon equation describes bosons and the electron >is a fermion, the mass of the electron is not zero, and an electron >orbiting a proton is under the influence of a potential. Given that A)the Klein-Gordon equation was originally derived and considered by Schrodinger as a description for the electron, but dropped for the some of the reasons you describe (Klein-Gordon published first) B)the Schrodinger equation results from the non-relativistic limit of the Klein-Gordon equation and C)Mills is mostly writing a historical retrospective, in this case going through what Mills' thought Schrodinger's reasoning process was I don't see why it is a wholly inappropriate place to start from. I think he starts there because Klein-Gordon is also related to Maxwell's equations and special relativity, which is where he ultimately has to start from in order to get a deterministic theory. > Having >started out with a totally inappropriate equation, Mills then >switches, without any explanation at all, to the correct Schrodinger >equation with the correct mass and potential. I think Mills assumes that the reader knows the historical background I described above, and fast-forwarded to Schrodinger's equation which is closely related to the Klein-Gordon equation. He probably should not assumed that--it is a technical quibble with his derivation. If you dispute my description of the the origins of the equations I could give you some references. >Do a nonsense derivation to get the sub ground state. Is it nonsense solely because of the objection above or is there more to this? >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov To steal a phrase from Mitchell Swartz, those who have "thought long, carefully and scientifically about his work" aren't as cocky as those who think they can skim Mills' work, identify what they think are non sequitors because they don't see any reason to achieve any depth of understanding of his work, and call his persistence the delusions of a crank. Regards, Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 12:32:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03130; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:29:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:29:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316142944.0079c440 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000316142944.0079c440 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:28:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xl6TK2.0.mm.EGKqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - Loud noises are definitely OUT at Xerox! :( I was in a lawyer's office doing some computer installations the other day, and the outside contractor installing ethernet line was using a loud staple gun to tack up some line got some startled looks from some workers, and he says "Don't worry, I'm not disgruntled." - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI - location of the Xerox shooting >(Um . . . Do they call in oompah marching bands at places like Xerox?) > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 12:35:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05970; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:33:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:33:45 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330F9 mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:36:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"itj_T1.0.8T1.eKKqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes: >Let me speculate, based on perfect ignorance of the technical issues. Jed should begin all of his posts with this phrase. >(This should be fun; I feel like Dick Blue.) Maybe in reality Jed Rothwell and Dick Blue are the same person! Wouldn't that be a surprising twist? But now I've become part of the problem. I'll stop. Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 12:36:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06195; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:34:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:34:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316153315.007acba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:33:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316143605.00811950 world.std.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QHEIc1.0.ZW1.KLKqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > What projection. > " ..hypnotizes these outside researchers .." ROTFLOL Yo! Mitch: That's a joke, j-o-k-e. So are the firecrackers and oompah bands. No, I do not really believe Mills hypnotizes people, but the underlying question is serious, and perhaps, since you claim you have read his book and you understand his stuff . . . perhaps you explain why these places are not anxiously replicating Mills and setting huge ventures. There is a patent, after all. If a place like Xerox cannot replicate, the patent is worthless. > More attacks on BLP. Based upon what, Mr. Rothwell? That wasn't an attack, it was a question. Answer it! > Is Mills to be your next Meyer? Is he dead yet? Has he been hauled into court and found guilty yet? Not as far as I know. I would call Mills the next CETI. Great potential, some proven technology, some iffy stuff, excellent references from universities . . . and it is swirling around the bowl, ready to carry away millions of dollars in investment capital. The director wastes money on real estate. He overreaches and spreads himself and his resources too thin, instead of focussing on one product that can bring near-term profit. The web site says they will be world famous by the year 2001. I predict they will be out of money and their real estate will be on the block for half of what they paid, with no takers in sight. I am not happy making that prediction, but in my experience, these are profound danger signs: A start up company has burned through millions of dollars already, it has done eight years of intense R&D, it has 24 employees and is hiring more, it has purchased eleven acres and a huge building, and its ambitious R&D program would keep a staff of 3,000 experts busy, yet it does not have *a single dollar in revenue*, not one prototype of anything (apparently), and no immediate prospect for commercial sales. I think most businessmen would agree that a start-up venture in that condition is headed straight off a cliff. Perhaps there is good news hidden away somewhere, off the web site. Yucch. How depressing. I keep talking about the business, because that's what I know, after all -- that's what I am qualified to discuss. Someone else should talk about the science instead, where there may be a ray of hope. How 'bout them hydrinos? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 12:55:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01931; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:50:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:50:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316154844.007ab5e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:48:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330F9 mailserver.omnikron .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2hvDP2.0.xT.FaKqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florek, Steven wrote: >Jed Rothwell writes: >>Let me speculate, based on perfect ignorance of the technical issues. > >Jed should begin all of his posts with this phrase. Nope. That's wrong Steve. That particular post was a joke, but when I make technical statements, in messages like "Re: Voodoo review" (above), I have done my homework. In your other message, you wrote about the Klein-Gordon equation, Schrodinger, and other esoteria relating to the Mills theory. Are you also conversant with the experimental evidence for hydrinos? If so, please answer the questions I posed in this thread, which are serious: 1. Are these valid tests of the hypotheses? 2. Can the results be explained by conventional physics, without handwaving? >But now I've become part of the problem. I'll stop. No need to stop. I enjoy any joke, including one at my expense. But answer the questions, if you can. You seem to have some respect for the Mills theory. Surely, if there is anything to it, it must make predictions which are tested in these experiments. Right? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 13:24:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25159; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:21:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:21:38 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Superconductivity at Very High Temperatures - Hyperconductivity (cond-mat/0003190) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:20:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38CEC259.81D3F2AA verisoft.com.tr> In-Reply-To: <38CEC259.81D3F2AA verisoft.com.tr> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA25102 Resent-Message-ID: <"mmW_6.0.196.X1Lqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:51:05 +0200, hamdi ucar wrote: >Hi, > >What I am understanding here, that semiconductor materials like silicon become superconductor at above 309K. I am not sure that the superconductivity is dependent of the frequency of the current. Very high frequency is needed? You check it. > > >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0003190 [snip] The coherence that is the postulated cause of the superconductivity may also be the mechanism behind CF. If so, then this paper may lead to an understanding of the catalytic sites in CF cathodes, and consequently to engineering improvements. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 13:27:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26682; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:24:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:24:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316162313.007ad960 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:23:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Townes quote on serendipity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ac9AA2.0.hW6.F4Lqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a nice quote: In science, there is usually no cold, objective inevitability to discovery or the accumulation of knowledge, no overarching logic that controls or determines events. There may be broad unavoidability to some discoveries, such as the maser, but not to their timing or exact sequences of progress. One has ideas, does experiments, meets people, seeks advice, calls old friends, runs into unexpected remarks, meets new people with new ideas, and in the process finds a career of shifts and often serendipitous meanders that may be rewarding and rich, but is seldom marked by guideposts glimpsed very far in advance. The development of the maser and laser, and their subsequent applications in my career and in science and technology generally, followed no script except to hew to the nature of humans groping to understand, to explore, and to create. As a striking example of how important technology applied to human interests can grow out of basic university research, the laser's development fits a general pattern. As is often the case, it was a pattern which could not possibly have been planned in advance. Charles H. Townes, "How the Laser Happened," (Oxford University press, 1999), chapter 5, "Maser Excitement -- and a Time for Reflection" (What a great chapter title!) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 14:28:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16603; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:27:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:27:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316171717.00815100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:17:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316153315.007acba0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000316143605.00811950 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4kqxd3.0.G34.7_Lqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:33 PM 3/16/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> What projection. >> " ..hypnotizes these outside researchers .." ROTFLOL > >Yo! Mitch: That's a joke, j-o-k-e. So are the firecrackers and oompah >bands. No, I do not really believe Mills hypnotizes people, but the >underlying question is serious, and perhaps, since you claim you have read >his book and you understand his stuff . . . perhaps you explain why these >places are not anxiously replicating Mills and setting huge ventures. There >is a patent, after all. If a place like Xerox cannot replicate, the patent >is worthless. Your endless denigration of researchers in the field is no joke. And when you do that, and then state that you really did not know and dont know anything anyway since you dont read the technical literature, know that it does not erase your vilifications nor does it help the believability of anything else you say. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 15:12:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27720; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:06:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:06:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316180544.0079fc10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:05:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316143605.00811950 world.std.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UNW7U.0.2n6.GaMqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I should explain something for people who are not into business. Mitchell Swartz wrote: > You admit, grasshopper, that you have not read his papers, >nor thought long, carefully and scientifically about his work, >so why should "(t)hey ... be nervous"? and >why all your endless attacks? Not me. I would not make Xerox nervous. The problem is "due diligence" and liability, and it has nothing to do with the scientific issues. It seems likely that a potential investor will read the web page, and in the course of investigating BLP claims, he will contact these laboratories and ask the same questions I did. Imagine you are Dr. Howard Morris, President of M-Scan Inc., and a wealthy investor shows up at your office for a meeting. He has a letter from Mills giving you permission to discuss the work you did for BLP. The investor asks you: 1. Do you feel that the work you did for BLP is a valid test of the BLP hypothesis? 2. Can you explain your results according to conventional physics? Whatever answer you come up with will put you in the hot seat. If you say you do not know, you look ignorant. If you deny BLP's claims, BLP may come after you. If you affirm the claims and the investor puts money into BLP, but it later turns out the experiments can be explained according to conventional physics or instrument error, you might be liable. Even if you are not liable, you will look like a fool. Having his corporate name associated with these highly unconventional claims and with a risky startup company which is bringing in tens of millions of dollars in venture capital will give Dr. Morris a major case of the heebie-jeebies, I suppose. I do not know what I would do in his shoes. I guess I would tell Mr. Investor what I thought, and I would urge him to do the experiments again himself. (Or commission another lab to do them.) Again, I am sorry to be talking about business issues so much. I realize it is a little off topic and boring to many readers, but there is a great deal of confusion here reflected in statements like Swartz's. I suppose readers want to consider the tough business conundrum BLP must contend with. This sort of thing is holding back CF, along with the technical difficulties. Now I really wish someone would address the experiments. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 15:20:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31008; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:17:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:17:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316181608.0079bbf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:16:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316171717.00815100 world.std.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000316153315.007acba0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000316143605.00811950 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4m2W4.0.La7.4kMqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Your endless denigration of researchers in the field >is no joke. In this case, I am not denigrating anyone -- although I often do. I am dicussing a tough business problem. You are so het up and so anxious to strike out at me that you cannot understand what I am saying. Since you yourself are reportedly trying to run a company selling o-u energy gadgets, it would a good idea for you to calm down, re-read my messages, and try to focus on the problem I am discussing. You face the same problems BLP does, mainly credibility and liability. I think your statements here indicate you do not have a clue how to deal with these problems. In fact I would say you do not even understand what these problems are, or why you are (probably) meeting sales and investor resistance. In any case, if you have some grasp of the technical issues, stop yapping about me and answer the two key questions: 1. Are these valid tests of the hypotheses? 2. Can the results be explained by conventional physics, without handwaving? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 15:21:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32393; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:20:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:20:41 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330FE mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:23:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"Uvqfm2.0.3w7.8nMqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >1. Are these valid tests of the hypotheses? Assuming that they are not misrepresenting the results they should be good evidence, particularly the x-ray spectroscopy. That is a big assumption, one which I would like to see independently verified much as you do. The only explanation I can think of for the lack of direct publication of reports from these independent institutions (if you read Mills' book carefully you'll see where certain tests were actually run outside of BLP) is that BLP contracted them to execute tests without letting them in on the big picture. The interpretation of data was then left up to Mills since it is probable that these researchers would not know enough about his theory, or they were just doing it for the money without seriously considering theoretical implications, or they just didn't want to get involved with the inevitable controversy. That explanation does not comfort me very much however. I have not called any of these labs up; from Erik Baard's articles we know that at least some of them have done said work; I have been hoping someone else would do the phone work :^> >2. Can the results be explained by conventional physics, without handwaving? I don't think so. Obviously excess heat experiments are subject to endless interpretation, but x-ray spectroscopy and observation of predicted hydrino emission/absorption lines is not. Some ask why we haven't seen these before. These spectral lines don't penetrate the atmosphere very well, even in the lab setting. It takes special density/temperature/concentration conditions with free H atoms (most H is H2) with appropriate catalytic ions present. Finally, no one has been looking for them before--some (but not all) hydrino lines can be associated with *individual lines* of ions of other elements (note the emphasis). I don't know of any independent investigators who have actually tested these claims definitively. Mills in his latest paper expects the Chandra X-ray observatory to yield conclusive evidence of interstellar hydrinos. Scott Little is going to be the first to try a non-novel (meaning without trying to "improve" upon BLP protocol) replication of a hydrino reactor as far as I have been able to determine from the historical record. >Surely, if there is anything to it, it must make predictions which >are tested in these experiments. Right? What is impressive about Mills/Farrell theory is the amount of retrodiction it does--for example, it predicts why there are three generations of quarks (still unknown in the Standard Model), why the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, the solar corona power source mystery, double-slit experiments, Aspect experiment, etc., all while being deterministic. No one ever seems to acknowledge that (or sometimes it's described as "twisted to comply with experiment" or "strangely predictive"). It so happens that one of its most unique predictions is the existence of these hydrinos, and they also have the most obvious commercial value. That's why this is where the focus is. I have recently realized that if you want to see H below the ground state you need look no further than H2. 2 H atoms need to have their bond energies removed by collision with a third body M in order to make H2. Individually, the H atoms in an H2 molecule are at lower energies than two individual H atoms in a vacuum. The H in H2 is not in a hydrino form per se, but the mere fact that H must be in a net-lower-energy compound to be in a chemically stable state suggests that 13.6 eV is not necessarily a magic ground limit. Unless I'm way off with this comparison. Steven Florek Former lurker From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 15:36:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05718; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:35:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:35:10 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316183348.0079f420 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:33:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330FE mailserver.omnikron .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gELFf.0.GP1.j-Mqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florek, Steven wrote: >Assuming that they are not misrepresenting the results they should be good >evidence, particularly the x-ray spectroscopy. . . . Good responses! I see you would be the right person to call Dr. Howard Morris, Tel: 610-696-8210 Fax:610-696-8370. (If he is the guy who did the x-ray spectroscopy, and if he is allowed to talk. Big ifs. . .) My problem, as I hope I have made abundantly clear, is that if I were to call Dr. Morris I would not have *clue* what to say. I would ask my two basic questions, he would answer, and his answer would mean nothing to me. I can, however, piece together some grasp of the issues based on your comments here. I hope this triggers additional discussion of these experiments. Perhaps our resident skeptics Larry Wharton or Lynn Kurtz have something to contribute? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 16:01:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11006; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:54:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:54:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316185322.007a0340 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:53:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330FE mailserver.omnikron .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"483VS1.0.uh2.2HNqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florek, Steven wrote: >Scott >Little is going to be the first to try a non-novel (meaning without trying >to "improve" upon BLP protocol) replication of a hydrino reactor as far as I >have been able to determine from the historical record. Right. I think the MIT Lincoln Lab work was a close replication, but alas it is buried in secrecy and politics, so it does not count. Thermacore is so close you can hardly call it independent, and the results are secret. Scott could really score a knockout on this one. I hope he does! If Bill Good assists it could really enhance the likelihood of success. I have heard he is a very sharp guy. Despite my hostility toward Mills, I hope he takes over the world. He reminds me a lot of Bill Gates and Henry Ford: a man of overweening ambition and pride, a jerk, a tough customer, but if he succeeds I will not begrudge him one penny of the money he makes. I don't care about his personality: I still think Gates has done a powerful lot of good for the world. Much harm too, but you have to expect that from a forcefull, driven mogul. The biggest problem at BLP is also its biggest asset: Mills. The same goes for Microsoft. Its worst faults are a reflection of the personality defects of its founder: the carelessness, the arrogance, the uncreativeness, the unreliability. Its great assets are also a reflection of the man: the wide bandwidth, the amazing applicability and backward compatibility, the complexity and ambitious scale of the product, which allows me to use Japanese with it, for example. Forgive me! There I go again. You see, I care about companies, business, people, personalities, language, technology, society . . . not science. But tell us more! I want to know about the science, for my own purposes. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 16:43:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26807; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:39:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:39:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000316193248.00817560 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:32:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316181608.0079bbf0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000316171717.00815100 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000316153315.007acba0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000316143605.00811950 world.std.com> <3.0.6.32.20000316130536.007a7db0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zPwKT.0.jY6.MxNqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:16 PM 3/16/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >In any case, if you have some grasp of the technical issues, stop yapping >about me and answer the two key questions: > >1. Are these valid tests of the hypotheses? > >2. Can the results be explained by conventional physics, without handwaving? > >- Jed I don't do requests. If you don't take or have the time to read the original papers, then you should read the Cold Fusion Times [ http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html ] more, if you want the scientific answers. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 17:28:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09202; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:25:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:25:10 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF8771330FF mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Do the hydrino verification tests make sense? Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:28:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"d3NU53.0.hF2.rbOqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is the legwork done by Erik Baard I referred to earlier: Tests at Lehigh University are interesting, confirms Dr. Alfred Miller, a senior research scientist there who has tested BlackLight Power's compounds. Miller probed the energy levels of the atoms by bombarding them with X rays and measuring the energy of the electrons leaving the atoms-a technique called X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. "I try and exhaust all possibilities and there really aren't an enormous number of conventional explanations" for what he found. Miller emphasizes that he didn't want his tests being interpreted as unequivocally confirming the hydrino theory, but "over the years I haven't really come across too many things that haven't been explainable. At least if you thought about it long enough and hard enough." Because Mills has produced freely available physical materials and has been "incredibly more open in getting people to confirm what his hypothesis predicts . . . this is not the equivalent of cold fusion," Miller says. "He's serious and honest. . . . He may well have ventured upon something." Ricerca Inc.'s lab east of Cleveland was similarly flummoxed by what it found when studying BlackLight Power's materials. "They were inorganic compounds that have organic properties. That is unusual," says Dr. Yong-Xi Li, manager of Ricerca's advanced mass spectrometry lab. "We totally don't know what's going on. The reason is that I've never seen before these kinds of properties in all my career. Probably we have to do more work." Steven Florek From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 18:23:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25352; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:21:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000316095934.007a4c80 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000315152024.0079fa50 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000314181407.007aac20 pop.mindspring.com> <002a01bf8dcb$b21ebe60$cf637dc7 computer> <3.0.6.32.20000314090513.007ae660 pop.mindspring.com> <000a01bf8dc7$917f2360$0a5bccd1 mikecarr> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:20:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mills lawsuit Resent-Message-ID: <"ahFRc.0.2C6.JQPqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{Let me see if I've got this straight: when you are quoted suggesting >>that Mills is dishonest and insane, your defense is that you were only >>referring to his business practices? > >Exactly. Like many other people, he appears to be honest in his >professional sphere, and a jerk outside of it. ***{The above sentence is a perfect example of journalistic ethics in action: all the legalistic qualifiers are present to permit you to spew forth pure gossip with impunity, and the words are arranged in such a way as to artfully insert an unspoken thought into the mind. You speak of Mills' apparent honesty in one sphere of his life, thereby setting up the reader for a charge of dishonesty elsewhere, but then, at the end of the sentence, you merely refer to him as a jerk, rather than as dishonest. Result: the reader, expecting a charge of dishonesty due to the structure of the sentence, imagines that the type of jerk you have in mind is a dishonest one, and you didn't actually have to come right out and say it! If you had been asked to give an example to illustrate the meaning of the word "insinuation," you couldn't possibly given a better response than this. --MJ}*** A doctor or scientist may be >scrupulously honest in his work, but he may cheat on his wife and lie on >his tax returns. ***{So what? You haven't demonstrated that Mills is guilty of any of these things. All you are doing is spewing forth pejorative insinuations, buttressed by assumptions and gossip. --MJ}*** > >Actually, for all I know, he science might be crooked too. I cannot judge, >except for the calorimetry, which looks pretty good. The only thing about >Mills I can judge are his business practices. ***{Horse manure. You have no access to the particulars that enter into his day-to-day business decisions, and, thus, your assessment of them falls into the same category as a spectator second-guessing the play calling at a football game. The only fact here is simply this: you don't like Mills' personality. The rest is just hot air. --MJ}*** However, people here who >understand his papers have never said there might academic fraud or diddled >data, and the standards at Fusion Technology are high, so I suppose the >papers are okay. I do not endorse them! > >At the APS conference, Robert Park told me that Mills' investors from the >West Coast Power Companies never performed independent experiments to >verify his claims. He said the power company people consulted with him >(Park) and told him everything they had done, and it was only a "paper" >review -- no hands-on measurements. I do not believe Robert Park, but on >the other hand even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and I have no >information to the contrary. It is plausible that they did not perform due >diligence investigations. In that case, their investment could be a >terrible mistake. ***{When you invest, risk is part of the package. In any case, we are not going to be able to assess any of this stuff until we determine whether Mills' theories are correct. And the only way to accomplish that is to focus on the theories and on replicating his experimental designs, rather than upon second and third hand speculations about his mental processes, his business decisions, or the diligence exercised by those who have invested in his company. --MJ}*** Until I see a report from their lab describing their own >independent, successful replication, like the 1990 AMOCO CF experiment, I >will not be able to judge the wisdom of their investment. ***{Then why are you speculating about it in a public forum? --MJ}*** >>Indeed, by poisoning the atmosphere of discourse within >>this group, they have if anything quite the opposite effect. > >I am not "poisoning the atmosphere." I am merely reporting his words and >actions. This discussion is not about me, although you want to talk about >only me. ***{This discussion is about your obsessive fixation on personal gossip and innuendo, where the work of scientists whom you do not like is concerned. As best I can determine, a partial trigger for this behavior is a failure, on their part, to give you ready access to their labs and to the ongoing details of their work, and the final, precipitating factor is any exhibition of an abrasive, egocentric personality. Simply put, if they are uncooperative and make you feel small, you attempt to punish them by dredging up vile filth and flinging it at them. That, at any rate, is the way it looks to me. --MJ}*** (I notice you do not actually try to defend Mills! You wouldn't >want to talk about him. ***{Unlike you, I do not engage in unsupported, public, ad hominem speculations about individuals, unless they have opened the door to such behavior by egregiously displaying such behavior themselves. Thus if Mills had, without provocation, published vile, muck-raking speculations about you or someone else, I would be perfectly happy to discuss his personal traits here. However, there is no evidence that is the case. Hence I will limit my speculations to the substantive aspects of his theoretical and scientific work. --MJ}*** ) I wasn't the one who repeatedly claimed he would >do something, and then disappeared without explanation. ***{People change their minds, Jed. Unless he signed a contract with you personally in which he promised some performance, he owes you not a damn thing. A statement of intention is not the same thing as a promise, and Miles' failure to explain to you the reasons for his change in plan is not the same thing as "lying through his teeth." --MJ}*** I have not changed >the name & address of my company every couple of years. ***{More vile innuendo. Now you are leaving the impression that Miles has to move repeatedly in order to stay one step ahead of the police! --MJ}*** I have not raised >millions of dollars for R&D, year after year, without selling a single >dollar's worth of product. ***{He is in charge of BLP, not you, and so the decision of when to bring a product to market is his call, not yours. You might as well go over to spf and mindlessly chant "Where is the water heater? Where is the water heater? Where is the water heater?" If you did, it would not differ by a whit, in terms of substance, from what you are doing now. --MJ}*** I did not go on CBC and call myself smarter than >God. ***{As I have pointed out to you before, exceptionally bright people always know they are exceptionally bright. How they deal with that insight, however, is highly variable. Some, on the grounds of honesty, will so label themselves when they think it is relevant. Others, recognizing the resentment such a policy will elicit, effect a false modesty. And there are a few who simply avoid the subject altogether. But these variations tell us nothing about the intelligence of an individual. The only way we can judge that is to examine the quality of his opinions about complex matters. In the case of Mills, we need to look at his theoretical work and his experiments. The particulars of his personality and of your reactions to them are just irrelevant noise. --MJ}*** I am not threatening to sue Nobel laureates because they disagree with >me and think I'm nuts. ***{And I doubt that Mills is, either. More than likely, he is suing them for actionable offenses such as libel and defamation of character. In any case, your insinuation to the contrary, without evidence, is just another example of "journalistic ethics"--an oxymoron if ever there was one--in action. --MJ}*** Mills is the only person who makes Mills look like >an ass. ***{Rubbish. Muck raking, yellow-dog journalists are quite capable of doing that with no assistance from him, as your posts amply demonstrate. --MJ}*** > >You say I am the bad guy for talking about the public record. ***{The so called "public record" does not merely contain facts. It also contains vile, unsupported, pejorative speculations, placed there by individuals such as yourself. And, yes, you are the bad guy, for wallowing in such material. --MJ}*** Let's keep >secrets instead. ***{Refusal to pass on unsubstantiated gossip or engage in baseless character assassination is quite a different thing from "keeping secrets." --MJ}*** Let's be loyal servants to every crank, every fool, jerk >and two-bit con man who calls himself an O-U scientist. ***{No, but let's base such accusations on solid evidence, not on gossip and unsupported speculation. --MJ}*** You defend Newman >on that basis. ***{Nope. I do not "defend Newman" when I refuse to condemn him on the basis of unsupported gossip and speculation. --MJ}*** Say, let's promote his scams in public. ***{As I have pointed out to you before, when charges of fraud are hurled by one party and denied by another, it is inappropriate to simply choose to believe one party over the other. Such matters are appropriately settled in court, not in a group such as vortex. --MJ}*** Don't tell anyone he >has a 20-year track record of dismal failure ***{The track record of the Newman motor differs by little from that of "cold fusion," truth be told. There are a number of tantalizing claims of replications by reputable men (e.g., Dr. Roger Hastings, Jean-Louis Naudin, etc.), and a larger list of failures by others. In both cases, supporters claim that the replications are what matters, and detractors focus on the failures. In both cases, the choice is simple: either the phenomena in question are elusive, or they are unreal. The only way to decide which is to examine the facts and the logic relating to the science itself, and avoid being distracted by gossip and innuendo. --MJ}*** that, he cannot use basic >instruments, he has no idea what a dynamometer does ***{A grotesque, and likely willful, exaggeration. --MJ}*** , he has never been >replicated ***{You cannot fail to be aware the Jean-Louis Naudin has a replication of the Newman effect posted on his website, since we have discussed it here before. It is, of course, arguable whether the replication is flawed, but the same could be said of every claimed replication of the Pons-Fleischmann effect, and yet you are prepared to accept the latter while denying the former. --MJ}*** , he will not let qualified people near the prototypes during his >public "demonstrations," ***{Which could be explained either by a dishonest desire to conceal hidden wires, or by a perfectly reasonable desire to protect trade secrets. Naturally you opt, without evidence, in favor of the former interpretation. --MJ}*** and he stole $70,000 from investors. ***{Investors lose money every day, and in the vast majority of cases there is no fraud. Moreover, it is routine for investors who have lost money to attempt to get it back by filing, or by threatening to file, false charges against the person with whom the investment was made. Result: you cannot simply assume, as you seem to have done, that the aggrieved investor is the one who has been defrauded. For all you know, the investor is, himself, engaging in fraud, when he threatens legal action. Bottom line: until you have a court verdict in your hand stating that Newman stole $70,000, statements that he did so are very foolish indeed. --MJ}*** This is >common knowledge, but if I talk about it I am "poisoning the atmosphere" >and "hurling pejoratives." ***{The problem is that you are peddling unsubstantiated gossip and speculation as if it is fact. Calling it "common knowledge" does not alter the nature of what you are doing. --MJ}*** It's my fault Newman steals money. ***{Pathetic. You hurl actionable charges against poor Newman, who lacks the money to defend himself in court. Mills, on the other hand, has the wherewithal to sue the shirt off of your back, and so you defame him only by means of artful insinuations. --MJ}*** Oh my, let us >not hurt him. We might prevent vital research! There is one chance in a >million he might be on to something, after all, even though he will never >reveal it. These people should be allowed to get away with anything so long >as they cover themselves with a silk banner labeled: "SCIENTIST, GENIUS & >FRIEND OF HUMANITY." Their genius transcends the normal bounds of social >ethics. See F. W. Nietzsche, "Beyond Good and Evil," or F. Dostoevsky, >"Crime and Punishment." > > >>(Why would >>Mills come forward to discuss anything on vortex . . . > >Who would want him? ***{Most of the people in this group, I dare say, would welcome his participation. I know that I would. --MJ}*** Only a fool would believe him. ***{Most members of this group, I suspect, would consider him to be *at least* as credible as you. --MJ}*** You can read what he has >to say on his web pages. > > >>(Why would >>Mills come forward to discuss anything on vortex, given that you are >>prepared to hurl the same sorts of pejoratives at him here that he would >>receive if he were to discuss his theories on sci.physics.fusion?) --MJ}*** > >You know darn well that he could discuss his theories here until the cows >come home, and I would never respond. I have nothing to say about his >theories. ***{That's right: your ignorance of physics prevents you from evaluating his theories and research directly, and so you should keep your mouth shut concerning matters--e.g., his intelligence--which cannot be evaluated until we know whether his theories are true. However, you simply don't like the man. As you put it, he is "egocentric," "spooky," and gives you "the heebe-jeebes." The apparent result is that you cannot resist the temptation to hurl pejoratives at him. --MJ}*** If he comes here and asserts the wisdom of pissing away high tech >investment capital on New Jersey real estate, I will have something to say. ***{And if he doesn't bring it up, you almost certainly will, since there is virtually zero chance that you are going to keep your mouth shut merely because you have nothing substantive to say. Result: it will be a cold day in hell before he posts anything to this group, and we are all the worse for it. --MJ}*** > >You call it "hurling pejoratives" when I cite well-know facts about the >man's behavior. If you think his business strategies are hunky-dory, you >should not be upset because I describe these strategies. Mills himself >probably brags about stuff I accuse him of. You think it is perfectly okay >for the guy to strut his ego on national TV, whereas I think that alienates >people and makes investors run for the door, and I think it is sick-minded. ***{Not at all. It is merely a problem which bright people must solve, and about which there is lack of unanimity. On the one hand, mediocre people will be offended if an exceptionally bright person expresses a high self-opinion. On the other hand, pretending to have a lower opinion of one's abilities than, in fact, one actually has, is dishonest. Thus, on the surface, it is a choice between being dishonest and giving offense, and not everybody resolves the issue in the same way. At a deeper level of analysis, it should be noted, the problem goes away. The reason: there is no informational content to statements of self-praise. If, for example, Isaac Newton, upon meeting a stranger, had said "I am Isaac Newton, the smartest man on Earth," the person hearing the statement would interpret it solely on the basis of information *not* contained in the statement. If he was familiar with Newton's work, he might agree with the statement, but in that case it would have been sufficient to say "I am Isaac Newton." Adding the bit about being the smartest man on Earth would affect the listener's opinion not a whit. And if the other person was not familiar with Newton's work, he would consider it to be wildly improbable that Newton was the smartest man on Earth, despite Newton's assertion to the contrary. Thus, once again, he would be of the same opinion after the statement was made than he had been before it was made. Hence making such statements serves no purpose. It is as if nothing has been said, and so it is better to say nothing at all about such things. Nevertheless, the fact that every bright person does not reach the same conclusion about this issue is no more indicative of the presence of "sick minds" than is the case regarding other issues where intelligent people disagree. --Mitchell Jones}*** >You apparently believe it is okay to make extravagant promises to investors >year after year, reneging without a word. ***{Nope. I believe you do not know what Mills says to his investors. --MJ}*** I think it is unethical and >self-destructive. There is no dispute about facts here, only different >opinions. We have different standards of behavior, and different business >strategies. ***{In my opinion, the different standards of behavior concern something very specific--to wit: you do not hesitate to hurl pejoratives concerning the character, intelligence, or even the sanity, of another human being, based on assumptions, hearsay, and vile gossip. In your behavior, I see the sleaze factor of a typical journalist at work, for the typical reason: lacking the knowledge that is required to maintain a focus on technical reasoning, yet determined to keep your mouth moving at all times, you find yourself, by default, evaluating substantive issues on the basis of gossip. What is the cure for your condition? Simple: whenever you find yourself becoming lost in a technical discussion, resist the temptation to say "That's over my head," and hit the books instead. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 16 20:17:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA29679; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:16:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:16:07 -0800 Message-ID: <020601bf902b$afbf3340$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Correa Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:11:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"BMxew3.0.OF7.36Rqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, I've developed a curiosity about the Correa device and have read all the material I can find -- the patents, the articles in Infinite Energy, conference proceedings and the like. Just tonight I finished reading all comments in the Vort archives about it. The whole thing seems strangely inconclusive. To summarize what appears to be the case: 1) There is a good evidence that the device works. Not conclusive, but good. 2) There were no serious attempts at replication by others. There was a start in that direction by one Jeff Fink, which went nowhere. 3) The Correas made an art form out of shooting themselves in the foot, as so many inventors do, and they have since gone underground. Nobody misses them much. Does anybody have any disagreement with this? Anything to add? Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 00:23:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24959; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:17:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:17:18 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <30.28f5f91.260343e2 aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:16:34 EST Subject: H2K: Running with K To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"LgW2F1.0.j56.BeUqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have completed a run Thursday March 16th with K metal in the tube. I liked this run. I have never seen the temperature rise as fast as it did at the beginning of the run, up to 437.4C in 15 minutes. I took special pains this run to reduce the mineral oil contamination in the tube by washing a chunk of K thoroughly in acetone and then cutting a tiny piece and packing it into the small trench cut in the side of the cathode. See a close-up photo of the cathode at the website. I'm just going to have to order some K packed under Argon to totally eliminate the oil problem. Also added at the website is the Lotus 123 file with the complete run, graph and lab notes. Click on the Lotus File Downloads link on the main page. That will take you to a page where I have set up 3 links to the Lotus files. 031600 is Thursdays run. I hope this can be repeated. It was quite exciting watching the temperature head for the sky, much higher than ever seen with the H2 calibrations. If I can get this performance a few more times I guess then it is calorimeter time. I prepared the tube a little differently for this run. The mineral oil was guking up the electrodes so after packing K in the little trench in the cathode I used an acetone soaked Q-tip to gently wipe down the cathode and the exposed surface of K in the trench. Then I slipped the cathode into the quartz sleeve and assembled all the components into the main quartz tube. Mounted the tube in the test stand WITHOUT the heat sensor assembly, pulled full vacuum (bout 25 millitorr) for 30 minutes. And now for something completely different...I heated the tube under vacuum with a hand torch until the K melted and the mineral oil was driven off and sucked out by the pump. I saw a silvery white deposit above the anode on the tube walls, very light. Cooled tube still under vacuum then when cool, filled with Argon. Removed tube from test stand, mounted the heat sensor, and again started vacuum pump. I kept a finger (in a rubber glove) over the open end of the tube so the Ar wouldn't escape. Pulled 25 millitorr vacuum for 3 hours, then filled with H2 to 19 torr and started the run. Power control was still somewhat difficult but a LOT better than without the pre heat treatment. Will order that K under Argon tomorrow. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 03:49:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA17624; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:48:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:48:22 -0800 Message-ID: <009301bf900e$e172c400$14441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Strange Water Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:46:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"RdITm.0.IJ4.6kXqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The Conductivity of Seawater is about 3 mho-meter, Resistivity ~ 0.333 ohm-meter or 33.3 ohm-cm, and Lake water ~ 1.0E-2 mho-meter, Resistivity ~ 100 ohm-meter or 10,000 ohm-cm. I was running some tap water (from a 100 ft well) that comes out of my water softener and the the resistivity is ~ 4.0 Megohm-cm. I used this water to leach some wood ashes that are loaded with K2CO3 and the K2CO3 saturated water is running about 2.0 Megohm-cm. As a check, I tried adding Table Salt (NaCl) to the tapwater and the resisitivity dropped to less than the ~ 33.3 ohm-cm seawater value. What's going on here, and how important is this type of effect on the CF-OU experiments? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 05:10:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA28985; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:07:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:07:19 -0800 Message-ID: <018c01bf9011$dbb8fa40$af01aec7 craig> From: "Craig Haynie" To: References: <30.28f5f91.260343e2 aol.com> Subject: Re: Running with K Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:08:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZVbRJ1.0.l47.7uYqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, is this experiment an attempted replication of one of Mills' experiments? Craig Haynie (Houston) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 2:16 AM Subject: H2K: Running with K > All, > > I have completed a run Thursday March 16th with K metal in the tube. > I liked this run. I have never seen the temperature rise as fast as it > did at the beginning of the run, up to 437.4C in 15 minutes. > > I took special pains this run to reduce the mineral oil contamination > in the tube by washing a chunk of K thoroughly in acetone and then > cutting a tiny piece and packing it into the small trench cut in the > side of the cathode. See a close-up photo of the cathode at the > website. I'm just going to have to order some K packed under Argon > to totally eliminate the oil problem. Also added at the website is the > Lotus 123 file with the complete run, graph and lab notes. Click on the > Lotus File Downloads link on the main page. That will take you to a page > where I have set up 3 links to the Lotus files. 031600 is Thursdays run. > > I hope this can be repeated. It was quite exciting watching the temperature > head for the sky, much higher than ever seen with the H2 calibrations. If I > can > get this performance a few more times I guess then it is calorimeter time. > > I prepared the tube a little differently for this run. The mineral oil was > guking up > the electrodes so after packing K in the little trench in the cathode I used > an > acetone soaked Q-tip to gently wipe down the cathode and the exposed > surface of K in the trench. Then I slipped the cathode into the quartz sleeve > and assembled all the components into the main quartz tube. > Mounted the tube in the test stand WITHOUT the heat sensor assembly, > pulled full vacuum (bout 25 millitorr) for 30 minutes. > > And now for something completely different...I heated the tube under > vacuum with a hand torch until the K melted and the mineral oil was driven off > and sucked out by the pump. I saw a silvery white deposit above the anode > on the tube walls, very light. Cooled tube still under vacuum then when cool, > filled with Argon. Removed tube from test stand, mounted the heat sensor, > and again started vacuum pump. I kept a finger (in a rubber glove) over the > open end of the tube so the Ar wouldn't escape. Pulled 25 millitorr vacuum > for 3 hours, then filled with H2 to 19 torr and started the run. Power control > was still somewhat difficult but a LOT better than without the pre heat > treatment. Will order that K under Argon tomorrow. > > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram > Las Vegas Nevada > 702-254-2122 > http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 05:31:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01492; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:29:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:29:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317082826.0079d9e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:28:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Georgia Dept. of Clear Thinking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eBikJ.0.DN.4DZqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An ambitious effort to build a maglev train in Atlanta fizzled this week when someone in the planning department realized that 80% of Georgia's electricity comes from coal, and the train would add to rather than decrease air pollution. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 05:35:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02753; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:33:10 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000317083704.006cac74 postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:37:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Re: Correa In-Reply-To: <020601bf902b$afbf3340$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MWC7K1.0.xg.KGZqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:11 AM 3/17/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I've developed a curiosity about the Correa device and have read all the >material I can find -- the patents, the articles in Infinite Energy, >conference proceedings and the like. Just tonight I finished reading all >comments in the Vort archives about it. The whole thing seems strangely >inconclusive. To summarize what appears to be the case: > >1) There is a good evidence that the device works. Not conclusive, but good. >2) There were no serious attempts at replication by others. There was a >start in that direction by one Jeff Fink, which went nowhere. >3) The Correas made an art form out of shooting themselves in the foot, as >so many inventors do, and they have since gone underground. Nobody misses >them much. > >Does anybody have any disagreement with this? Anything to add? > >Fred > > > > >The tubes I built were simpler to construct and much more robust than the blown glass of Correa's. They did not overheat and could be dissassembled for cleaning and resurfacing easily. I experienced all the phenomena they described with the exception of excess energy. The Correa's never answered any of my correspondance. It is my view, how ever erroneous that may be, that they are fakes. Nevertheless, it was great fun, very dangerous, and a terrific light show. If I had it to do over again I'm sure I would. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 05:53:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07514; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:52:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:52:52 -0800 Message-ID: <38D2398D.C5EB380E bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:56:29 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Georgia Dept. of Clear Thinking References: <3.0.6.32.20000317082826.0079d9e0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VTGer.0.Kr1.pYZqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > An ambitious effort to build a maglev train in Atlanta fizzled this week > when someone in the planning department realized that 80% of Georgia's > electricity comes from coal, and the train would add to rather than > decrease air pollution. That's not necessarily true. We face the same issues each time we do the justification for a MARTA expansion. The issue of whether electric trains reduce overall pollution is critically dependent on ridership. It was only a study for building a $1B demostration system and Atlanta was one of the cities in the pool. The goal was to get to Rome, GA with that billion. We barely make it outside the perimeter for that kind of money. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 06:20:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14783; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:17:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:17:37 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317091623.00790e80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:16:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Correa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yR8P42.0.rc3._vZqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: 3) The Correas made an art form out of shooting themselves in the foot, as so many inventors do, and they have since gone underground. Nobody misses them much. They are not exactly underground, but they do not communicate with people often. Mike Carrell has been in contact with them from time to time and he may be able to tell us what they're up to. Paulo Correa gave a talk at a conference sponsored by Infinite Energy a few years ago. The first 10 minutes was a rant against people who oppose o-u energy research. It was one of the most excruciating, embarrassing performances I have ever witnessed. I felt like crawling under a table and stuffing cotton in my ears. "Shooting in the foot" hardly begins to describe it. Perhaps we should transcribe it as a warning to humanity. Honestly, I hate to be associated with such people. I guess it is good that we published their scientific claims . . . I am glad that Jeff Fink enjoyed the replication and he does not hold it against us. (Assuming he learned about from us.) Something that was "great fun, very dangerous, and a terrific light show" can't be all bad. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 06:23:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA16693; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:22:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:22:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317092105.00790e80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:21:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Georgia Dept. of Clear Thinking In-Reply-To: <38D2398D.C5EB380E bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000317082826.0079d9e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wwXA21.0.l44.P-Zqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >> An ambitious effort to build a maglev train in Atlanta fizzled this week >> when someone in the planning department realized that 80% of Georgia's >> electricity comes from coal, and the train would add to rather than >> decrease air pollution. > >That's not necessarily true. We face the same issues each time >we do the justification for a MARTA expansion. The issue of >whether electric trains reduce overall pollution is critically >dependent on ridership. This was a brief article in yesterday's Atl. Journal. No technical details, but someone at the planning commission computed the smog factor and came up with that estimate. The line would run from the airport out I-20 a considerable distance. I am not sure, but I believe maglevs consume more power per rider than conventional electric trains. There was some talk of bringing in electricity from the TVA as a solution. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 07:25:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06395; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:24:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:24:28 -0800 Message-Id: <200003171524.KAA14825 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Hydrino discussion group Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:16:14 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"gGyyn2.0.rZ1.huaqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians, Just found out about this. Gene Mallove ******* Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:16:30 -0800 (PST) From: Luther Setzer Subject: HSG: Welcome to the Hydrino Study Group! All, My thanks to each of the people on this list who have chosen to join. As you know, the purpose of this list is to provide a civilized forum for exchange of ideas pertaining to Dr. Randell Mills' theory of the hydrino. For purposes of civility, this is a "fully moderated" list. As stated in the list charter, no "flame wars" or slandering or personal attacks are allowed. If you have a sharp disagreement with the integrity of the theory or the interpretation of the data, simply say so. Do not attack another person's character because of this disagreement. The focus will remain on *science*, not personalities or character traits. Specifically, one of two main themes should run through any post to this list: 1. Theory: Is it *internally* consistent? 2. Experiments: Does evidence agree with the theory, thus making the theory *externally* consistent? So far, we have seven people on this list, including myself and Dr. Mills. I scoured the Internet looking for every "third party" person interviewed in the December 1999 Village Voice article about Dr. Mills. (By "third party", I mean people not directly involved with the company.) I invited everyone I could find, both supporters and critics. Of the critics, none has chosen to join, which did not surprise me. We also have a couple of coworkers of mine on this list who expressed an interest in the theory. I want to open this list with my basic assessment of the theory and supporting evidence. I then invite others to post their own take on these two main issues. My qualifications are: 1) mechanical engineer, and 2)advocate of reason via an integrated worldview in which theory consistently agrees with practice. I have studied the web site materials, the book, and various interviews with Dr. Mills, along with the third-party evidence. Dr. Mills predicted certain unusual phenomena such as excess heat and X-ray spectroscopy spikes due to the hydrino effect. Experiments conducted have generated those effects. This tells me that there must be some sort of merit to the theory. I find it too striking a coincidence to be, well, *just* a coincidence. Qualified "third party" scientists have run these tests and are baffled by these results. They cannot readily explain them by currently accepted theories. This chain of events, in my opinion, prevents a ready dismissal of Mills' theory. In examining the statements of Mills' critics, one common behavior has struck me over and over again. I call this a "geocentric fallacy" for lack of a better term. In the Dark Ages, it was accepted as obvious and divine that Earth was the center of the universe. As more contrary evidence appeared to challenge that premise, more and more elaborate models were built to constrain Western worldviews to the "geocentric" model. Finally, reality and reason won in the person of Copernicus, and today we enjoy the benefits delivered by his "Copernican Revolution". In the Dark Ages, scientists assumed that they knew everything there was to know about Earth's place in the universe. Today, Mills' critics automatically assume that they know everything there is to know about the hydrogen atom. However, I have yet to see any of them provide an explanation for the aforementioned anomalies. It is human nature not to challenge long-held premises. A typical scientist's response to hydrino theory can be found at http://www.csicop.org/sb/9712/rothman.html. Notice that the author only had to hear the words "shrinking hydrogen atoms" in order to shut out the possibility of its truth. He did not even bother to read the theory before making a "firm prediction" about its falsehood. Links to other hard-to-find stories related to hydrino theory can be found at http://www.egroups.com/docvault/hydrino/Links. You might have to register as a user with eGroups to reach that page. In closing, I will admit that I am not the most qualified person to evaluate the mathematics of Mills' book _The Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics_, hereafter abbreviated as GUT-CQM. I hope that, over time, mathematically qualified people will join this list and offer their evaluations. For those who would like, please post your own assessment of the theory and facts in question. Thanks! Luke Setzer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: hydrino eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hydrino-unsubscribe eGroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net. Try Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install now: http://click.egroups.com/1/2345/3/_/749282/_/953252263/ eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/hydrino/ http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 07:27:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06820; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:25:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:25:28 -0800 Message-ID: <00c301bf902d$36484fe0$14441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:23:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"b3vmj1.0.Ug1.dvaqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I re-ran the tapwater vs woodash leach water. The conductivity of the K2CO3 leach water is about 1/2 that of softened (or unsoftened) well water. Way out conclusion: The 2 K+ and CO3= ions have an Affinity for the Negatrinos and Positrinos respectively, thus lower the conductivity of the leach water. Anyone want to argue with this ? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 09:26:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22243; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:22:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:22:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000001bf9035$88af00a0$1a5accd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <020601bf902b$afbf3340$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Subject: Re: Correa Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:52:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"6Gvvy1.0.OR5.zccqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred said: > Hi all, > > I've developed a curiosity about the Correa device and have read all the > material I can find -- the patents, the articles in Infinite Energy, > conference proceedings and the like. Just tonight I finished reading all > comments in the Vort archives about it. The whole thing seems strangely > inconclusive. To summarize what appears to be the case: Last year I spent a Saturday, Sunday, and part of Monday with the Correas at their invitation. I visited Paulo's lab and saw a demonstration of the PAGD. The visit was under a nondisclosure agreement which I will honor, but I can say some things in response to this flurry of discussion. On one occasion I also visited Jeff Fink at an early stage of his attempt to replicate the PAGD effect. > > 1) There is a good evidence that the device works. Not conclusive, but good. Yes, it works. I saw the discharge phenomenon and the input and output pulses captured on his lab instrumentation, substantially as reported in my IE articles. > 2) There were no serious attempts at replication by others. There was a > start in that direction by one Jeff Fink, which went nowhere. There were "serious" attempts, but without the know-how necessary to evoke the energy yield. Jeff put in a lot of effort, to his credit. When I visited Paulo's lab, it became clear to me that one has to understand the physics rather well to get the exact conditions in the reactor tube which produce the energy gain. There are lots of conditions which give you the light show Jeff saw, without the energy gain. The Correa patents are deep tutorials, but you need a real grasp of the physics to "tune" the reactor conditions to get what you want. > 3) The Correas made an art form out of shooting themselves in the foot, as > so many inventors do, and they have since gone underground. Nobody misses > them much. This isn't quite fair to the Correas, and largely reflects Jed's stance with respect to any efforts that do not fit his business models. I can say that it should be possible to make PAGD reactors that will work in the test circuit, but they won't work very long before operation causes the critical conditions to change and the energy yield will disappear, leaving a light show. There is a significant R&D effort necessary to go from the effect to a commercially usable system. It is not as simple as it appears, and has nothing to do with the structural fragility of the reactors which have been pictured. As to why the necessary connections and sponsorship have not occurred, I see no merit in discussing it in this forum. I understand Paulo's viewpoint, it is not shared by others, but he is not acting in an irrational manner, given the parameters of the big picture he sees. He was generous to share that with me, but it will remain private. It may be that his work, both theoretical and practical, may fade into obscurity. He understands that as a possibility. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 09:47:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25546; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:37:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:37:22 -0800 Message-ID: <20000317173642.49879.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [64.6.128.240] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Running with K Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:36:42 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"thE5v.0.sE6.Grcqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah... But will the acetone contamination affect the results?? Just pondering Adam ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 10:39:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02928; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:35:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:35:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317133405.0079d700 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:34:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Correa In-Reply-To: <000001bf9035$88af00a0$1a5accd1 mikecarr> References: <020601bf902b$afbf3340$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lVTJJ3.0.9j.nhdqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike C wrote: >This isn't quite fair to the Correas, and largely reflects Jed's stance with >respect to any efforts that do not fit his business models. I am sure Fred can think for himself without imitating my stance! I think that anyone who reads Correa's statements about business, or hears his I.E. conference lecture, will conclude that he shot himself in the foot. It was horrifying! No cutting remark or insult I could make would hurt him one-tenth as much. During the same conference, Paul Brown spoke about his nuclear battery. The difference between Brown and Correa was like night and day. Brown was professional, polite, on-topic, impressive. I do not know whether his gadget works or not, but he sure knows how to present himself, his company and his product. Brown has suffered in the hands of the establishment and large corporations as much as anyone -- more than the Correas I think -- but he does not let his grim experiences interfere with his presentation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 10:46:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15210; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:42:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:42:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317134132.0079dae0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:41:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Georgia Dept. of Clear Thinking In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000317092105.00790e80 pop.mindspring.com> References: <38D2398D.C5EB380E bellsouth.net> <3.0.6.32.20000317082826.0079d9e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2fYV63.0.Zj3.eodqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I dug up the article from yesterday's Journal. Local News section: "ARC says high-speed electric train could add pollution." This would be a 40 mile stretch of maglev rail from the airport to Kennesaw, for $1 billion of federal money. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 11:17:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA27201; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:15:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:15:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38D28524.DBB48928 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:19:00 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Georgia Dept. of Clear Thinking References: <38D2398D.C5EB380E bellsouth.net> <3.0.6.32.20000317082826.0079d9e0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000317134132.0079dae0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EqY0V3.0.we6.EHequ" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I dug up the article from yesterday's Journal. Local News section: "ARC > says high-speed electric train could add pollution." This would be a 40 > mile stretch of maglev rail from the airport to Kennesaw, for $1 billion of > federal money. Right. They were hoping that the $1B could get them to Lake Allatoona near Cartersville. I spoke with my friend who just moved into his new office with the Georgia Rail Passenger Authority and he said that the pollution issue is a Catch-22, sorta. With inadequate ridership you can't show a pollution improvement; but, with limited funds you can't show adequate ridership because the maglev doesn't go anywhere. The really idiotic thing in this city is that we are about to spend $4B to add a runway to Hartsfield when the real bottleneck is the air corridor. With that $4B and the maglev $1B we could build maglev to Macon *and* improve that airport. BUT! That puts no money in the Atlanta coffers. Well, I sold my '90 Acura this weekend after driving it 11 years. I had pledged that my next car would run on CF back in 1989 when I bought the Legend. I went to Atlanta Toyota to talk about the Prius (hybrid); but, they said that they have presold the full '00 production run and it will likely be '01 before I could get one. So, I bought a 41 mpg Echo. Cute car. Like the Flying Saucer which crashed at Roswell, it's bigger on the inside than the outside. I drive it the 10 miles to get from Lilburn to the Doraville MARTA station. One 11 gallon fill-up will provide for a month of commuting. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 11:26:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29938; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:22:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:22:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:11:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mills NOT running from police!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vaKqF2.0.eJ7.kNequ" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I mention that Mills has reincorporated and moved his company several times. Apparently Mitchell Jones took that to mean I think Mills is being chased by the police! Jones made some kind inflammatory remarks accusing me of that. What I meant would be self-evident to an investor. Frequent changes, reincorporation, relocations are a sign of instability. Management is not planning ahead properly. It is paying too much to lawyers and moving companies. When a small company is growing rapidly and hiring new people, it may have to move to larger quarters, but this company has had no revenue for eight years. A potential investor will want to know why it has reincorporated. It could mean that stock is being diluted, or changing hands too frequently, or the Board of Directors is changing because of disagreements. It usually means trouble. Jones' lurid ideas belong back in 1925. Nowadays, with telecommunications and Internet, you cannot escape from the police or disgruntled investors by moving across the state line. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 12:46:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27206; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:25:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:25:22 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <29.291ab8c.2603ee8c aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:24:44 EST Subject: Re: Running with K To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"v9ipy.0.ne6.gIfqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/17/00 5:10:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, cchaynie ix.netcom.com writes: > Vince, is this experiment an attempted replication of one of Mills' > experiments? > > Craig Haynie (Houston) > At the time I began this, March 10, 1998 there was no mention of this in any of the literature. I'm reasonably certain that BlackLightPower was considering it. It was so obvious, using a glow discharge to disassociate the H2, the Mills group must have thought of it. So, is it a replication? Probably not as I am not using their exact protocol, but when I set this up I had nothing to go on but my own idea. So I will continue the way I'm going as it does show promise. Run 031600 yesterday was very interesting, what with the very rapid temperature rise in the tube. Graph of this run is up on my website. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 12:53:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28812; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:50:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:50:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317154901.0079f350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:49:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Running with K In-Reply-To: <29.291ab8c.2603ee8c aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vFTyb.0.627.6gfqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: >At the time I began this, March 10, 1998 there was no mention of this >in any of the literature. . . . > >So, is it a replication? Probably not as I am not using their exact >protocol . . . Perhaps the correct answer would be: BLP is replicating *you*, but not with the exact protocal. This could be interesting, with patents and whatnot. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 13:22:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10433; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:19:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:19:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38D29E69.4520C6D2 winternet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:06:49 -0600 From: Bob Fickle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Running with K References: <3.0.6.32.20000317154901.0079f350 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c7M4i2.0.xY2.L5gqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For that matter, I wonder whether the Mizuno / Ohmori replication attempts by Scott, using a K2CO3 electrolyte, might also be considered a not-exact BLP replication. Might you not get enough K+ ions and dissociated H-atoms in the discharge to have a BLP-type effect?? Anyone have a clue what electrolyte conditions might promote such a scenario? Jed Rothwell wrote: > VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > >At the time I began this, March 10, 1998 there was no mention of this > >in any of the literature. . . . > > > > >So, is it a replication? Probably not as I am not using their exact > >protocol . . . > > Perhaps the correct answer would be: BLP is replicating *you*, but not with > the exact protocal. This could be interesting, with patents and whatnot. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 13:24:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11900; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:22:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:22:28 -0800 Message-ID: <027001bf90bb$00f67860$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 01:18:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ui1uj3.0.rv2.I8gqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jeff, I'm glad you are still on the list so I can discuss this with you. I apologize for my misstatement of your replication effort. It was definitely more serious than I had first thought. In your original statement you said: I bought a Grainger refrigeration pump last week for $285 and have been producing pulsed abnormal glow discharges for most of the week. Your evidence of this was: Soon after start up the next day the glow was back followed by brilliant sparkles jumping all around the cathode surface. This was apparently the PAGD effect. Primary current hovered near 1.5 A. A scope wired across 10 ohms of my ballast resistance showed voltage spikes as the tube resistance dropped with each PAGD event. These events were flashing across the cathode surface at nearly 10 per second at some random frequency since the auto triggering on the scope could not get a stabilizing lock on it. It could be seen through the clear tube that pits were forming on the cathode surface. It could also be seen that a conical cloud radiated upward from each burst. A noticeable deterioration in visibility was occurring as the device ran. Vaporized aluminum was apparently condensing on the inner surface of the acrylic. In response Michael Shaffer wrote: These sparkles are common phenomenon called unipolar arcs. They arise at points of nonuniformity on the cathode when operating in the usual abnormal glow regime (the abnormal glow regime where the discharge resistance still increases with increasing current). If the ballast is large enough to prevent the discharge from becomming a steady arc, the unipolar arc will only disharge the capacitive energy stored in the plasma sheath and external circuit. The end result is that the nonuniformity that triggered the arc is replaced by a clean metal surface. Over time the unipolar arcs eliminate the seriously nonuniform points...if the system is clean enough that new nonuniformities are not being made too rapidly. I suspect that with Al + O2 you (and Correa) have continuous chemistry going on, and the unipolar arcs might never cease. Also, pump oil vapor can cause nonuniformities and unipolar arcs. The ususal minimum remedy for oil and water vapors is a liquid nitrogen cold trap between the pump and the chamber. However, from IE it appears that the Correas can get their phenomena with a mechanical pump and no mention (if my memory is still good) of an LN2 cold trap. The Correas' PAGD is a regime of negative resistance, ie. decreasing resistance with increasing current. While their patent quoted in IE describes this regime and their tubes, it does not clearly spell out how one can OPERATE in this regime. Normally it is unstable. Somehow, they get the PAGD to extinguish before it overheats the discharge spot and converts to an arc, and this is their "trick". It is also why they emphasize that they have a PULSED abnormal glow. (BTW: An arc is a discharged sustained by some combination of evaporated electrode material, thermionic emission and/or field emission. Electron emission in an arc is concentrated into one or more microscopic arc spots, each of which emits a few amps. Arc spots may be either stationary or mobile.) You do not want the arc regime, because your cathode will get melted and evaporated, and the Correas say that it is bad. I am not sure how to verify that you are in the Correas' PAGD operation with certainty, since I haven't tried it. However, if you observe the voltage across the tube and it drops to <100 V during the pulse, then you got an arc. The discharge overshot the PAGD. The discharge current got too high, and one or more cathode spots got too hot. In a later letter you said: >I disassembled the PAGD tube today to get a closer look at the pits on the cathode. >I examined the pitting with a hand held microscope containing a reticle scale graduated in .002 in. increments. Features down to .001 are easily visible. The individual pits seem to have no regular or distinguishable features. However. the pits are grouped in highly irregular patches on the surface. The patches occupy 25% of the surface area. There are also pit patches on the anode occupying 2% of the anode area. The individual pits appear to be more pronounced on the anode. > >Perhaps I am only getting vacuum arc discharges although the discharge events I am witnessing look like the picture on the cover of IE. Finally, you said: All those batteries and mega capacitors are totally impractical and beyond our budget. Perhaps it is my own ignorance, but the Correa's over unity circuit does not make sense to me. That is why I went in a different direction. We have been mostly inactive since April while we think of some other variations to try. Later, Mike Carrell said: Marett goes on to say that he began replicating the Correa's work the week after the application was laid open, and says he saw discharge forms similar to those seen in pictures in the Reich museum. I have seen them also in a discharge chamber built by Jeff Fink, but they do not produce excess energy. It is only after Marett saw the Correa application that he introduced the "low impedance" source. He blurs this; it is essential to have a driving source which is internally rugged and stable, ***and*** the correct current limiter, which my be only a few hundred ohms with the rather large electrode areas. Marett claims to have produced excess energy in the manner of the Correas, ***after*** reading their application. There is a lot more but it more or less conforms to this pattern. The tentative conclusion I would draw from these letters is that: 1) There is some question whether your tube was in fact in a stable abnormal glow discharge. It appears that it could have been arcing due to impurities on the electrodes. The Correas elaborately cleaned their electrodes, according to the patent material. Also, the pitting pattern sounds more like cathode spots than a glow discharge which would presumably leave a relatively even pattern of pits. Michael Shaffer's comment about the O2 wouldn't seem to apply to the Correa's original work. 2) For practical reasons, you made alterations in the protocol that may or may not be significant. In any case you didn't replicate the Correa device as given. Given the general acknowledgement of the trickiness of the abnormal glow regime, can you attest with certainty that you got it right? 3) At least one other person, Doug Marrett, found evidence of anomalous energy output. This I still need to check out more thoroughly. I don't intend this as a criticism of you or your working method. I'm only trying to find out if indeed the Correa idea has been independently tested and what the results were. At this point I would have to say that there have been two replication attempts, one by a person who has a brief against Correa, which showed excess energy, and another which modified the test setup, which didn't. The question of whether this sort of device works still seems to be an open one. Given the glow discharge experiments of Karabut, Chukanov, and others, there is some independent evidence that excess energy might be found there. BTW, I don't believe that Correa is a fraud, because frauds are smooth, convincing, and tell what you want to hear. That's not Correa :-) He may well be an arrogant thief, but that says nothing about the workability of his technology. Fred Epps From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 14:01:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26475; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:58:50 -0800 Message-ID: <38D2AB7C.E9041D51 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:02:36 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Mar 17, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5YoQO.0.XT6.Qggqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Mar 17, 2000 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:29:06 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 17 Mar 00 Washington, DC 1. POLYGRAPH: YOU CAN SUE IF THEY MAKE YOU DO THE VOODOO. The use of polygraphs in pre-employment screening by the Secret Service, FBI and Drug Enforcement Agency, is being challenged by a group of rejected applicants. Their attorney described the polygraph as "voodoo science." By coincidence, the truth about polygraph testing will be the subject of one of the talks in a session titled "Voodoo Science" at the March Meeting of the APS in Minneapolis next week (Session G8.FPS). In 1988, Congress passed legislation prohibiting the use of polygraph testing in pre-employment screening by private industry, but the federal government was specifically exempted from the ban, as though federal employees, including scientists, deserve less protection. 2. NASA: WHEN CHEAPER AND FASTER DOES NOT TURN OUT BETTER. The National Research Council yesterday issued a report attributing recent failures to overemphasis on cost and schedule. The report acknowledges, however, that emphasis on "faster-better-cheaper" missions has "spawned more efficient management techniques and ways to infuse state-of-the-art technology into NASA projects." NASA Administrator Dan Goldin made it clear to the House VA, HUD, IA Appropriations Subcommittee that while its execution may have been faulty, "the concept of FBC is absolutely sound." 3. MAGNET THERAPY: IT DIDN'T SEEM TO HELP MARINO'S SPIRAL EITHER. Only 20 patients were involved, but the first randomized double- blind study of magnets to treat long-term low back pain found no significant difference between using real and sham magnets. The study was published in the March 8 issue of JAMA. Meanwhile, Dan Marino, who's been using and promoting magnet therapy for two years (WN 22 Aug 97), retired from football. 4. PATENT NONSENSE: IT'S DIFFICULT TO POKE HOLES IN IT. On the very day patent 6,024,935 was issued for the "hydrino" process (WN 18 Feb 00), patent 6,025,810 was issued to David Strom for a "hyper-light-speed antenna." The concept is deceptively simple: "The present invention takes a transmission of energy, and instead of sending it through normal time and space, it pokes a small hole into another dimension, thus sending the energy through a place which allows transmission of energy to exceed the speed of light." It's also good for your begonias. According to the patent, this portal "allows energy from another dimension to accelerate plant growth." Hey, none of this is new. Every week WN gets e-mail from people who are from other dimensions. 5. EMF: SOLUTION FOUND FOR UNEMPLOYMENT AMONG EMF RESEARCHERS. Now that power lines have quit causing cancer, some of the very same researchers have found a high suicide rate among electrical workers. They attribute it to reduction of melatonin caused by EMF, leading to depression. It certainly depresses me. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 14:09:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29585; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:05:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:05:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317165251.008119c0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:52:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1bdkB.0.7E7.emgqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:11 PM 3/17/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell continues his innuendo of BLP: >I mention that Mills has reincorporated and moved his company several >times. ..... >What I meant would be self-evident to an investor. Frequent changes, >reincorporation, relocations are a sign of instability. Management is not >planning ahead properly. It is paying too much to lawyers and moving >companies. When a small company is growing rapidly and hiring new people, >it may have to move to larger quarters, but this company has had no revenue >for eight years. A potential investor will want to know why it has >reincorporated. It could mean that stock is being diluted, or changing >hands too frequently, or the Board of Directors is changing because of >disagreements. It usually means trouble. We know what "several" means. What were the three --or obviously more-- purported "reincorporat(ions)" and locations, Mr. Rothwell, that support your boring tirade? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 14:11:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31399; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:08:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:08:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317170726.00790d50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:07:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Correa In-Reply-To: <027001bf90bb$00f67860$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"u7nOo.0.Xg7.hpgqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: >BTW, I don't believe that Correa is a fraud, because frauds are smooth, >convincing, and tell what you want to hear. Correa seemed sincere to me. Not a bit like a fraud. He seems terribly gullible, because he believes all these wild, unreplicated claims made by people like Newman, Moray and Tewari. He was indignant because other people doubt Newman & Co. I figure a guy who takes those claims at face value might be fooling himself about his own work. It was so embarrassing . . . I mean, it's one thing to be open-minded, but to assert they are all correct and all victims of suppression! No standards. No demand for rigor, no skeptical doubts. How can you trust his judgment? Mills seems sincere to me too. The only thing he does which I consider unethical is to promise year after year he's going to introduce this or that product, and then renege without explanation, like a hot fusion scientist. You get tired of people crying wolf. When I asked Martin Fleischmann why he was unable to introduce products as quickly as he hoped he could, and why IMRA failed, he spent two hours discussing the problems (on audiotape) and later sent me 15 pages of diagrams describing the technical difficulties. (I'm hoping he will let me publish this on Internet someday.) McKubre and Passal have described their technical difficulties in detail. Real scientists don't just brag about success, they also admit failure. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 14:11:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29280; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:04:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:04:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000317153111.00810bd0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:31:11 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WZQ2m3.0.H97.-lgqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:11 PM 3/17/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell continues his innuendo of BLP: >I mention that Mills has reincorporated and moved his company several >times. ..... >What I meant would be self-evident to an investor. Frequent changes, >reincorporation, relocations are a sign of instability. Management is not >planning ahead properly. It is paying too much to lawyers and moving >companies. When a small company is growing rapidly and hiring new people, >it may have to move to larger quarters, but this company has had no revenue >for eight years. A potential investor will want to know why it has >reincorporated. It could mean that stock is being diluted, or changing >hands too frequently, or the Board of Directors is changing because of >disagreements. It usually means trouble. We know what "several" means. What were the three --or obviously more-- purported "reincorporat(ions)" and locations, Mr. Rothwell, that support your boring tirade? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 14:23:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00605; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:12:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:12:03 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:11:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <48b5dsce7cf3ritru8t0vdtg5s90nm92p9 4ax.com> References: <00c301bf902d$36484fe0$14441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <00c301bf902d$36484fe0$14441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA00537 Resent-Message-ID: <"NlA1a2.0.N9.psgqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:23:52 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >To: Vortex > >I re-ran the tapwater vs woodash leach water. The conductivity of the >K2CO3 leach water is about 1/2 that of softened (or unsoftened) well water. > >Way out conclusion: The 2 K+ and CO3= ions have an Affinity for >the Negatrinos and Positrinos respectively, thus lower the conductivity >of the leach water. > >Anyone want to argue with this ? :-) > >Regards, Frederick I would only say that it is difficult to draw any conclusions at all, without knowing actual salt concentrations in the various cases. Perhaps you could do a comparative study, with known concentrations of K2CO3 and Na2CO3? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 14:56:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17993; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:50:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:50:07 -0800 Message-ID: <003001bf9063$6aa31d20$924bccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:51:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"SEz8M.0.2P4.UQhqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sees the glass as half full, or less. > I mention that Mills has reincorporated and moved his company several > times. Apparently Mitchell Jones took that to mean I think Mills is being > chased by the police! Jones made some kind inflammatory remarks accusing me > of that. > > What I meant would be self-evident to an investor. Frequent changes, > reincorporating, relocations are a sign of instability. Or progress. First the Lancaster, PA area, near his father's farm, if not actually there, as an inexpensive home base while the first electrolytic cells are tested at nearby Thermacore. Also near Franklin & Marshall College, where he was a graduate student under Farrell. Then Malvern, PA, in the Philadelphia suburbs, in a modest office/lab space. Then an old facility in the Princeton area, originally built be RCA in the late 50's to build satellites, on the block for $2 million, to be refurbished as a license laboratory to support expected partners in the development of hydrino hydride products. At the time the Princeton facility was purchased, the capitalization was 10+ million with about six million spent, including the building purchase. >Management is not > planning ahead properly. It is paying too much to lawyers and moving > companies. When a small company is growing rapidly and hiring new people, > it may have to move to larger quarters, but this company has had no revenue > for eight years. A potential investor will want to know why it has > reincorporated. It could mean that stock is being diluted, or changing > hands too frequently, or the Board of Directors is changing because of > disagreements. It usually means trouble. To my knowledge the board of directors has remained the same, with rather good credentials, if you care to look. I know of no reincorporations; the name was changed once from Hyrocatalysis Corp. (Which Mills said no one understood anyhow) to the more sexy BlackLight Power. Since moving into the new quarters, they have invested in expensive analytical equipment necessary to make in-house measurements to optimize their processes and support license partners. They have gone through the mode of using outside labs to run their tests, saving expensive capital investment and providing independent verification of data at the same time. More of the same will not convince the unconvinceable skeptics, so they move on to do their own work and hire technical staff to do it. They will have proprietary control, save external overhead, and get the fast data turnaround necessary in R&D work. All this seems like a well planned expansion, even if it does not fit Jed's preferred business plan. Jed says that if they only sold somethings early on they would confound skeptics and would get plenty of cash. Well, they are apparently giving away somethings (samples of the hydrino hydride compounds) that are confounding the people who really look at them, and someone has stuffed $25 million cash in their hands, with more waiting in line, checkbooks in hand. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 15:44:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05977; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:40:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:40:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000317184208.025c6a10 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:42:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Correa In-Reply-To: <027001bf90bb$00f67860$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dVjWu3.0.ET1.J9iqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, At 01:18 AM 03/18/00 -0800, Fred Epps wrote: >Later, Mike Carrell said: > >Marett goes on to say that he began replicating the Correa's work the week >after the application was laid open, and says he saw discharge forms similar >to those seen in pictures in the Reich museum. I have seen them also in a >discharge chamber built by Jeff Fink, but they do not produce excess energy. >It is only after Marett saw the Correa application that he introduced the >"low impedance" source. He blurs this; it is essential to have a driving >source which is internally rugged and stable, ***and*** the correct current >limiter, which my be only a few hundred ohms with the rather large electrode >areas. Marett claims to have produced excess energy in the manner of the >Correas, ***after*** reading their application. > Just to set the record straight, it was at this time that Paulo Correa cleverly initiated a series of personal attacks and a threat of a lawsuit. I point this out so that folks will understand why Doug recanted, and also perhaps why he did not even bother to challenge Mike Carrell's interpretation of his words. Sometimes I think the best path to take is knowing when to fold 'em. A good reporter however, tries to get both sides of a story directly from the main participants, but I doubt that Mike had ever spoken with or even tried to contact Doug as any professional science reporter would have done. As anyone who has ever been written up in a news story knows, there's almost always more to the story than meets the ink. Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 15:49:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08356; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:47:40 -0800 Message-ID: <019d01bf9073$5c87b6a0$14441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <00c301bf902d$36484fe0$14441d26 fjsparber> <48b5dsce7cf3ritru8t0vdtg5s90nm92p9@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:46:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ES2JP1.0.U22.RGiqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 2:11 PM Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Robin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:23:52 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >To: Vortex > > > >I re-ran the tapwater vs woodash leach water. The conductivity of the > >K2CO3 leach water is about 1/2 that of softened (or unsoftened) well water. > > > >Way out conclusion: The 2 K+ and CO3= ions have an Affinity for > >the Negatrinos and Positrinos respectively, thus lower the conductivity > >of the leach water. > > > >Anyone want to argue with this ? :-) > > > >Regards, Frederick > I would only say that it is difficult to draw any conclusions at all, > without knowing actual salt concentrations in the various cases. > Perhaps you could do a comparative study, with known concentrations of K2CO3 > and Na2CO3? At about 2% K2CO3 aq has a pH of about 11.0, but I'm fresh out of litmus paper. As time went by the Conductivity of the wood ash leached K2CO3 increased , and the tap water Conductivity decreased, thus the resistances were about 8 Kohms and 6 Kohms respectively, down from > 11+ Kohms for the K2CO3 Leach, and up >From the 5+ Kohms for the tap water. I wouldn't expect CO2 change into or out of the waters to make that much change. Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 16:09:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16165; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:05:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:05:43 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01bf906e$da2b8230$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <30.28f5f91.260343e2 aol.com> Subject: Re: Running with K Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:13:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"ITLpx.0.Ty3.MXiqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: > I have completed a run Thursday March 16th with K metal in the tube. > I liked this run. I have never seen the temperature rise as fast as it > did at the beginning of the run, up to 437.4C in 15 minutes. - Congratulations Vince, it is hard to come up with a reasonable artifact that would explain this major temperature increase as well as the faster temperature rise. > > I took special pains this run to reduce the mineral oil contamination > in the tube by washing a chunk of K thoroughly in acetone and then > cutting a tiny piece and packing it into the small trench cut in the > side of the cathode. - I should have realized the possible importance of this contamination earlier, it is totally in line with my experience in plasma display technology. The new cleaning procedures sound like a major improvement. The improved cathode cleanliness can reduce the cathode fall and the ammount of energy wasted in bombarding the cathode creating non OU heat. It is also possible that the distribution of K is much improved by your new construction and bakeout under vacuum procedure. Bakeout under vacuum is used in the manufacture of virtually all gas discharge tubes. We would typically bake out our display tubes at 420 C under vacuum to help remove moisture and organic contaminants. - Very encouraging developments indeed !!! Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 16:13:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15116; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:02:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:02:39 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:02:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <00c301bf902d$36484fe0$14441d26 fjsparber> <48b5dsce7cf3ritru8t0vdtg5s90nm92p9@4ax.com> <019d01bf9073$5c87b6a0$14441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <019d01bf9073$5c87b6a0$14441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA15056 Resent-Message-ID: <"uE3eP3.0.1i3.TUiqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:46:07 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >I wouldn't expect CO2 change into or out of the waters to make that much change. > >Regards, Frederick [snip] I'm not sure how you measured the resistance, but if you used an ohm-meter, then you may also need to take into account, the fact that the electrodes themselves will develop an electrochemical potential in the solution, which may vary from one electrode to the next producing a spurious voltage which could throw the resistance measurement out of whack. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 16:34:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA12806; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:19:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:19:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01ad01bf9077$c254ab60$14441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <00c301bf902d$36484fe0$14441d26 fjsparber> <48b5dsce7cf3ritru8t0vdtg5s90nm92p9@4ax.com> <019d01bf9073$5c87b6a0$14441d26@fjsparber> Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:17:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Io2vi3.0.x73.2kiqu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Robin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:46:07 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >I wouldn't expect CO2 change into or out of the waters to make that much change. > > > >Regards, Frederick > [snip] > I'm not sure how you measured the resistance, but if you used an ohm-meter, > then you may also need to take into account, the fact that the electrodes > themselves will develop an electrochemical potential in the solution, which > may vary from one electrode to the next producing a spurious voltage which > could throw the resistance measurement out of whack. Same Electrodes and Polarity: + | | | | | | | | |__ - |_________ | Same Pan same water depth (1.0 cm)same center spot : rho = R*A/L Don't Forget there are ~ 500 "Ion Pairs" per cm^3 in air most of the time. Are The "ION PAIRS" LLs attached to H2O or O2 molecules/aerosols? :-) Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 17:12:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06339; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:06:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:06:21 -0800 Message-ID: <029101bf90da$451c0e00$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 04:32:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"FXnUo3.0.yY1.CQjqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, Thanks for writing back on this, I know of your long involvement in the subject... >> >> I've developed a curiosity about the Correa device and have read all the >> material I can find -- the patents, the articles in Infinite Energy, >> conference proceedings and the like. Just tonight I finished reading all >> comments in the Vort archives about it. The whole thing seems strangely >> inconclusive. To summarize what appears to be the case: > >Last year I spent a Saturday, Sunday, and part of Monday with the Correas at >their invitation. I visited Paulo's lab and saw a demonstration of the PAGD. >The visit was under a nondisclosure agreement which I will honor, but I can >say some things in response to this flurry of discussion. Is it possible to say whether they are still attempting to commercialize it in some way? On one occasion I >also visited Jeff Fink at an early stage of his attempt to replicate the >PAGD effect. >> >> 1) There is a good evidence that the device works. Not conclusive, but >good. > >Yes, it works. I saw the discharge phenomenon and the input and output >pulses captured on his lab instrumentation, substantially as reported in my >IE articles. I saw no reason to doubt those results. The critical comments on Vort didn't seem to strike very deeply. > >> 2) There were no serious attempts at replication by others. There was a >> start in that direction by one Jeff Fink, which went nowhere. > >There were "serious" attempts, but without the know-how necessary to evoke >the energy yield. Jeff put in a lot of effort, to his credit. Yes, it wasn't until after his response that I went back and saw how much he put into it. Still, it doesn't appear to have been replicated as described in the patents. When I >visited Paulo's lab, it became clear to me that one has to understand the >physics rather well to get the exact conditions in the reactor tube which >produce the energy gain. There are lots of conditions which give you the >light show Jeff saw, without the energy gain. The Correa patents are deep >tutorials, but you need a real grasp of the physics to "tune" the reactor >conditions to get what you want. Do you have some recommended books or papers to get that grasp? I am reading heavily in this area now, but it's mostly patents. > >> 3) The Correas made an art form out of shooting themselves in the foot, as >> so many inventors do, and they have since gone underground. Nobody misses >> them much. > >This isn't quite fair to the Correas, and largely reflects Jed's stance with >respect to any efforts that do not fit his business models. I have nothing to go by but the quoted text of their own speech and Jed's comments, which I consider a bit hyperbolic. As a small businessman I tend to agree with Jed's view of the ways that inventors can hurt themselves. On the other hand, how inventors present themselves or act has nothing to do with whether their ideas work, and that is all I really care about here. I can say that >it should be possible to make PAGD reactors that will work in the test >circuit, but they won't work very long before operation causes the critical >conditions to change and the energy yield will disappear, leaving a light >show. Yes, I understand the cathode erosion is a major problem in maintaining performance. Are there other major problems? There is a significant R&D effort necessary to go from the effect to a >commercially usable system. It is not as simple as it appears, and has >nothing to do with the structural fragility of the reactors which have been >pictured. Yes, I can see that. For myself I am trying to establish whether the effect is based on the gas/metal boundary, or whether it is strictly a gas ion effect. If it is a gas effect, the abnormal glow could be created with an induction coil or electrostatic means. > >As to why the necessary connections and sponsorship have not occurred, I see >no merit in discussing it in this forum. No problem with me. I was basically summarizing the statements on Vortex so far, and wondering whether there has been further work in this area. I didn't mean to come off sounding so negative about the Correas. I'm neutral on that. I admit the statements on the list have colored my viewpoint. I understand Paulo's viewpoint, it >is not shared by others, but he is not acting in an irrational manner, given >the parameters of the big picture he sees. He was generous to share that >with me, but it will remain private. It may be that his work, both >theoretical and practical, may fade into obscurity. He understands that as a >possibility. That would be too bad. Thanks again, Mike. Fred > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 17:13:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08103; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:11:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:11:24 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <6.36dbcda.26043192 aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:10:42 EST Subject: Re: Running with K To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"RSWGF1.0.X-1.yUjqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/17/00 12:54:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes: > VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > >So, is it a replication? Probably not as I am not using their exact > >protocol . . . > > Perhaps the correct answer would be: BLP is replicating *you*, but not with > the exact protocol. This could be interesting, with patents and whatnot. > > - Jed > Hmm, interesting thought Jed, however I started this out of pure curiosity and if I should be standing in line for a then (1998) remote possibility of an IPO. I never wanted to make any money off of this as a marketable "device", just wanted to make an investment decision. I'm retired and quite happy with my present lifestyle. If Mills becomes the worlds richest man from his efforts I say "good for him" and only ask that he drop by with a six pack and I'll treat him to a good home cooked meal. Make that Bud please. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 17:15:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06388; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:06:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:06:27 -0800 Message-ID: <029201bf90da$49a9d380$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 04:58:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4bTjm1.0.fZ1.JQjqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, > > 3) The Correas made an art form out of shooting themselves in > the foot, as so many inventors do, and they have since gone > underground. Nobody misses them much. > >They are not exactly underground, but they do not communicate with people >often. Mike Carrell has been in contact with them from time to time and he >may be able to tell us what they're up to. He did. > >Paulo Correa gave a talk at a conference sponsored by Infinite Energy a few >years ago. The first 10 minutes was a rant against people who oppose o-u >energy research. It was one of the most excruciating, embarrassing >performances I have ever witnessed. I felt like crawling under a table and >stuffing cotton in my ears. "Shooting in the foot" hardly begins to >describe it. It's as far as I would be willing to go. How they appear in front of a mass audience may have little to do with how they work with investors, or consort with their friends. In any case it is not my main interest, which is "does it work?". >Honestly, I hate to be associated with such people. I guess it is good that >we published their scientific claims . . . Definitely. It is fascinating stuff. I don't have as high expectations of human behavior as you do, apparently. Selling books to the public all day, I would love to have Paulo come in and "rant" about about his research. It would be the high point of my week :-) I am glad that Jeff Fink >enjoyed the replication and he does not hold it against us. (Assuming he >learned about from us.) Something that was "great fun, very dangerous, and >a terrific light show" can't be all bad. The question is whether he actually DID a replication, or just a similar experiment. I guess I will hear back from him on that. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 17:21:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11118; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:19:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:19:03 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:30:56 -0500 Message-ID: <20000318013056000.AAA303 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"R_PRf1.0.ej2.6cjqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >I re-ran the tapwater vs woodash leach water. The conductivity of the >K2CO3 leach water is about 1/2 that of softened (or unsoftened) well water. > >Way out conclusion: The 2 K+ and CO3= ions have an Affinity for >the Negatrinos and Positrinos respectively, thus lower the conductivity >of the leach water. > >Anyone want to argue with this ? :-) > >Regards, Frederick I've been reading your posts along with a bunch of other stuff, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it all. Hydrino's, Light Leptons, arggg... I've also been reading some stuff about anomolous reactions with Nitrogen and metals (Lord Rayleigh, 1940). It seems to me that since you are just measuring the conductance of a liquid with an ohm meter, that you are putting in a charge, and sometimes it has to build up to the point of discharge, depending on the dielectric strength of the liquid. This dielectric constant of the liquid would change quite a bit if the liquid contained any gases that were ionizable, like N or Argon (or Radon..) from the air. A capacitative discharge would occur, in which there would be a buildup of potential, a discharge, and then a flow of electrons through a gas liquid matrix. Very difficult to isolate all of the unknowns in an open cell, and probably repeatable only on every other day. Only after you isolated and quanitied all of the unknowns, could you possibly postulate any new physics, such as LL's or Hydrino's. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 17:44:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17805; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:36:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:36:52 -0800 Message-ID: <01d701bf9082$9bab3460$14441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000318013056000.AAA303 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:35:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"QbSJ6.0.6M4.psjqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Knuke wrote: > > It seems to me that since you are just measuring the conductance of a liquid > with an ohm meter, that you are putting in a charge, and sometimes it has to > build up to the point of discharge, depending on the dielectric strength of > the liquid. How do you propose to measure the Electrical Conductivity/Resistance, Knuke? :-) > This dielectric constant of the liquid would change quite a bit > if the liquid contained any gases that were ionizable, like N or Argon (or > Radon..) from the air. A capacitative discharge would occur, in which there > would be a buildup of potential, a discharge, and then a flow of electrons > through a gas liquid matrix. Whoa There! Maybe a volt or so from the digital ohm-meter. > Very difficult to isolate all of the unknowns > in an open cell, and probably repeatable only on every other day. The OPEN CELL IS THE WHOLE POINT! IF LLs are airborne and get into the test cell it could explain a lot about the open cell CF/OU experiments. > Only > after you isolated and quanitied all of the unknowns, could you possibly > postulate any new physics, such as LL's or Hydrino's. Thanks for the Lecture on Scientific Method. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 18:08:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27802; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:58:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:58:33 -0800 Message-ID: <382255688.953344705274.JavaMail.root web32.pub01> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:58:25 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Robert Park Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.221 Resent-Message-ID: <"nTSYD1.0.Do6.8Bkqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just noticed with sadness the following book review on cnn.com FYI The Scrooge of science "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -- Carl Sagan By Jennifer Ouellette March 17, 2000 Web posted at: 2:45 p.m. EST (1945 GMT) (Salon) -- When USA Today carried a full-page ad last year for a mysterious tincture called "Vitamin O," described as "stabilized oxygen molecules in a solution of distilled water and sodium chloride," few noticed that the ad was describing common salt water. Clearly, the manufacturer, Rose Creek Health Products, was betting on the public's unfamiliarity with scientific lingo to make a killing in the lucrative homeopathic market. It seemed a pretty safe bet: The company was selling 60,000 of the 2-ounce vials each month, retailing at $20 apiece, after ads promised Vitamin O would increase energy and even cure cancer. The premise was that our bodies need oxygen to function well but air quality is so poor that most of us don't get the oxygen we need. Then Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland, exposed the scam in his provocative weekly electronic newsletter, "What's New," which reports on science issues. A subsequent interview with Park on National Public Radio raised enough public pressure to cause the Federal Trade Commission to investigate. Three months later, the FTC charged the supplier with fraud and ultimately closed down the company. The Vitamin O scheme is an example of pseudoscience, also known as junk science or, as Park has dubbed it, "voodoo science." The label encompasses all manner of scientific concepts and claims that are wrong by established academic standards, yet attract large followings of passionate and sometimes powerful corporate and government allies. Although it has been present throughout human history, junk science has become increasingly sophisticated -- and more difficult for the layperson to detect -- because of the explosion in scientific progress and technological advancement. Pseudoscience is a perennial bugbear for legitimate researchers, an increasing number of whom are beginning to sound the alarm. Along with the late Carl Sagan, Park is among the most stalwart champions of the cause. A 70-ish, bantamweight man who regularly runs triathlons, Park has been battling the many-headed Hydra of pseudoscience for the past 16 years through his role as director of public affairs for the American Physical Society, the largest professional organization for physicists in the country. "It's a target-rich field," Park says. Many of his favorite targets are skewered in his first book for a general readership, "Voodoo Science: The Road From Foolishness to Fraud," due this spring from Oxford University Press. The book attempts to debunk today's most foolish scientific claims: magnetic therapy, cold fusion, so-called free-energy schemes and alien abductions, to name a few. In the process, Park investigates how otherwise respectable scientists may end up committing scientific fraud; how our evolutionary heritage makes us want to believe in an era when belief is a hindrance rather than a protective mechanism; and how the public can distinguish false claims from genuine breakthroughs in a time of unprecedented scientific progress. Park is a master of the snappy sound bite. When the Kansas Board of Education voted to remove evolution from the public school curriculum last fall, Park dryly observed, "The rest of the world is standing on the brink of a new millennium, and Kansas has voted itself back into the Stone Age." Network news teams, radio talk shows and newspapers frequently feature him as the token skeptic when reporting on questionable scientific results. Park always delivers with his trademark acid tongue. Park's zeal in ferreting out junk science has made him a controversial figure, hailed as a patron saint by skeptics and condemned by true believers as an archenemy of progress. Supporters include magician and fellow debunker James Randi; detractors include psychic spoon bender Uri Geller. Another detractor is Nicholas Nossaman, a Denver family medical practitioner who relies almost exclusively on homeopathic remedies for his patients -- the popularity of which Park attributes sweepingly to the placebo effect. 'All I care about is that people get better' "When someone in a particular scientific paradigm is introduced to something that doesn't fit that paradigm, either they've got to extend their boundaries, or they have to insist that it doesn't exist," says Nossaman. "Right now they've chosen not to extend their boundaries." Nossaman acknowledges the existence of the placebo effect, but points out that it is also present in traditional medicine and that the effects are usually short-term rather than long-term cures. "I don't care if Bob Park is convinced or not," he says. "All I care about is that people get better." Among scientists, opinion is sharply divided as to whether Park helps or hinders the cause, since his outspokenness frequently offends powers that be in Washington even as it garners coveted media attention. Since many scientists rely on federal funding, Park's bombastic style worries some researchers. In fact, the American Physical Society requires him to include a disclaimer at the end of his electronic newsletter, which nonetheless bears the inimitable Park imprint: "Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be." Nor does his brash, highhanded approach always appeal to members of the general public, many of whom perceive him as an arrogant know-it-all poking fun at the public's expense, particularly when he targets alternative medicine, which now has its own branch at the National Institutes of Health, thanks to congressional influence. But in "Voodoo Science," Park proves himself to be more than just a snide spoilsport intent on pissing on everyone's parade. Snappy sound bites might help bring science into the spotlight, but Park's ultimate objective is nothing less than a revolution in public thinking: imparting a sense of healthy skepticism to enable us to recognize bad science. Consider the long and colorful history of free-energy schemes, which date from 1618, when a London physician named Robert Fludd tried to adapt a waterwheel into a perpetual-motion machine. His modern-day counterpart is Joe Newman, a backwoods mechanic from Lucedale, Miss., who claims to have invented an energy machine that operates on similar principles. Unfortunately for Fludd and Newman, such schemes violate the laws of thermodynamics, which dictate that friction and gravity prevent an object from spinning indefinitely -- a fact so widely accepted that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office generally rejects applications for perpetual-motion machines outright. But like the medieval alchemists who devoted their lives to turning base metal into gold, such men continue to pursue the pipe dream of an unlimited source of energy. Park knows of at least three companies doing business in this country that claim to have developed infinite-energy devices, bilking millions of dollars out of starry-eyed investors. Inevitably, the inventors seek to silence detractors by likening themselves to Newton or Galileo: scientific geniuses ahead of their time who are thwarted by a closed scientific establishment. Despite its reputation for skepticism, the media frequently contributes to the proliferation of pseudoscience, sometimes fanning the flames of public hysteria. Conspiracy fears were at the center of the decade-long power line scare, based on a 1989 series of articles in the New Yorker by investigative reporter Paul Brodeur that asserted that prolonged exposure to the electromagnetic fields of power lines caused cancer in those unfortunate enough to live near them. Brodeur made a convincing case, drawing on the findings of an early study (now widely acknowledged as flawed because the number of subjects was limited) and circumstantial, anecdotal evidence. While anecdotes make for powerful journalism, they are not sufficient to establish a link in a scientific study. Unlike the link between cigarettes and cancer, which has been repeatedly borne out by a multitude of studies, a series of comprehensive double-blind studies found no evidence of a similar link between power lines and cancer. 'For a few seconds, I believed in flying saucers' That revelation came at a high public cost. By 1999, the total cost of the power line scare, including the relocation of power lines and the loss in property values, was estimated at more than $25 billion by the White House Science Office. The only person who seems to have benefited from the hysteria is Brodeur, who wrote two sensational books based on his New Yorker series: "Currents of Death" and "The Great Power Line Cover-up." Now retired, he persists in his belief in a widespread conspiracy despite the mounting pile of epidemiological evidence to the contrary. Park's efforts occasionally have happy endings, as in the Vitamin O scam and power line controversy. Yet for every head of Hydra he manages to lop off, another grows back in its place. "No matter how thoroughly you think something is debunked, believers still persist," Park marvels. "It's a mistake to underestimate the human capacity for self-delusion," he concludes. For example, sales of magnetic-therapy kits topped $2 billion last year, buoyed by endorsements from pro golfers and other athletes. Yet, retailing for $39.95, they are little more than common refrigerator magnets in flashy packaging, with magnetic fields too weak to penetrate the material in which they are encased, much less have any noticeable effect on tired or strained muscles. Another Park peeve is the ongoing public fascination with UFOs and alleged alien abductions, fueled by a slew of Hollywood films and popular TV series -- and undaunted by the CIA's revelation that more than half of all UFO sightings from the late 1950s and 1960s were secret reconnaissance flights by U-2 spy planes. Park has seen only one episode of "The X-Files," at his son's urging, and was duly unimpressed, except for one small detail: the poster in Fox Mulder's office depicting a UFO, with the slogan "I want to believe." Therein lies the secret behind the pervasiveness of pseudoscience: People want to believe, and they will distort and deny the facts any way they can to support a belief. "Many people choose scientific beliefs the same way they choose to be Methodists or Democrats or Chicago Cubs fans," Park writes. "They judge science by how well it agrees with the way they want the world to be." The solution, he insists, lies not in imparting specific knowledge of science to the public but in encouraging a more scientific worldview, which he describes as "an understanding that we live in an orderly universe governed by natural laws that cannot be circumvented by magic or miracles." But even an astute skeptic can be duped, as Park learned from his own close encounter. In the summer of 1954, he was a young Air Force lieutenant stationed at Walker Air Force Base in Roswell, N.M. While driving back to base late one night along a deserted stretch of highway, he witnessed a spectacular blue-green light streaking across the sky. As a physicist, Park recognized the phenomenon for what it was: an ice meteorite plunging into the upper atmosphere and emitting a blue-green fluorescence upon entry. Congratulating himself on his keen insight, he continued on his way. That's when he saw it: a shiny metallic disk hovering low in the sky that bore an unmistakable resemblance to a flying saucer. For a moment, his smug, rational world turned upside down -- and then he realized the apparition was merely his car's headlights reflecting off of a single telephone line running parallel to the highway. Park admits it was a humbling experience. "I was primed to see a flying saucer [by the powerful impression of the ice meteorite], and my brain filled in the details," he writes. "Whenever I become impatient with UFO believers, as I often do, I try to remember that night in New Mexico when, for a few seconds, I believed in flying saucers." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Goldes ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 18:33:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04853; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:31:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:31:49 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:43:45 -0500 Message-ID: <20000318024345187.AAA271 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"-my132.0.lB1.Kgkqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >How do you propose to measure the Electrical Conductivity/Resistance, Knuke? :-) Well... with an ohm meter, of course. >Whoa There! Maybe a volt or so from the digital ohm-meter. OK, then forget that as an ionizing source, unless there is something normally present in air that would ionize at under a volt. >The OPEN CELL IS THE WHOLE POINT! IF LLs are airborne and >get into the test cell it could explain a lot about the open cell CF/OU experiments. That is exactly the point. If you are getting any kind of charge out of the air, it might be quite large depending on the environment at the time. The ohm-meter may just be the hardware that is necessary to drag in the ambient charge, complete the circuit, and give the measurement that is up to interpretation. If you wanted to show that this was happening, you would have to do a side-by-side comparison with the same kind of water in two similar containers, one with the gases boiled out, and in a sealed, high dielectric container with both electrodes inside, so that the air couldn't get back in, and one that was open. Any change over time in the conductivity of the liquid in the sealed container would have to come from charges that were able to penetrate the container, while the open container would gather charge at a faster rate. Also, having both electrodes inside the container, even in the open container, instead of using a metal pan as one of the electrodes would force the LL's to come through the water/air interface instead of just impinging on the pan itself, and going into the circuit. >Thanks for the Lecture on Scientific Method. :-) Anytime, I've got theories I haven't even had time to put into nonsensical words yet. ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 19:23:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18286; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:20:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:20:05 -0800 Message-ID: <20000318032000.20265.qmail nwcst287.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 17 Mar 00 22:20:00 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Voltage without pressure X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA18194 Resent-Message-ID: <"q3K7K2.0.bT4.bNlqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes this issue has been bothering me too. A while ago, I have experimented with liquid nitrogen/helium chilled (SC) superconducting Pb wire instead of your Al plate, and started to have simmilar questions. The coiled SC wire had a large current flowing through it for several seconds after a permanent magnet (PM) was removed from inside of this coil. (would've been longer if not for the resistance of the external Ag terminals). The current in the coiled SC wire indeed produced magnetic flux with a pole of opposite polarity to that of the PM that was removed. This was causing the magnet to be attracted to the coiled Pb wire as it was being removed, just like the Lenz law states. Upon "unshorting" the silver terminals of the coiled SC wire, a large high-voltage air discharge appeared as the coil tried to maintain the flux by keeping the current continuous through its itself . So a high voltage "appeared" where only high current and zero voltage was a while ago. Regards, Horace P.S. Guess IN WHAT DIRECTION was the current induced in this SC coil, with 2 mutualy-neutralizing identical PMs inside it, like this: NS SN as one of the magnets was removed and the other left inside ? like this: NS ------------> SN John Berry wrote: > I often hear that voltage is pressure, but I've always felt this > description as lacking. > Maybe it is also the speed of the electrons in the wire? Anyway I have a > riddle. > > If you have an AL pie plate or other conductive metal with a spring > attached compressed by a magnet. > > If the magnet is released it will fly away from the plate inducing eddy > currents. > There is current but no "conventional" voltage. > This is a problem, there is energy, it induced current which created > heat. It slowed the magnet. If we tried to recapture the energy of the > magnet with another spring we would find less energy than if there had > been no plate. > > So if there is no voltage then how is there energy? Energy is current x > voltage. > If voltage is zero then so is energy. > Even after the magnet come to rest with respect to the plate from > compressing the spring the current in the plate still continues for a > short time. > > So if there is still voltage, Just a different type then where is it? > what is it? > > > John Berry ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 17 21:11:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14723; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:06:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:06:38 -0800 Message-ID: <036601bf90fb$d20fb8e0$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:37:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pwrBU3.0.zb3.Txmqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed and all, > >>BTW, I don't believe that Correa is a fraud, because frauds are smooth, >>convincing, and tell what you want to hear. > >Correa seemed sincere to me. Not a bit like a fraud. He seems terribly >gullible, because he believes all these wild, unreplicated claims made by >people like Newman, Moray and Tewari. Newman-- not worth bothering with. Moray-- unreplicatable, but not wild. Tewari --seems to have good results. Didn't the Indian government test the Tewari generator? As well as Toby Grotz? He was indignant because other people >doubt Newman & Co. I figure a guy who takes those claims at face value >might be fooling himself about his own work. It was so embarrassing . . . I >mean, it's one thing to be open-minded, but to assert they are all correct >and all victims of suppression! No standards. No demand for rigor, no >skeptical doubts. How can you trust his judgment? It does make you wonder. But as I said before, there is only one standard to judge his technology by, and that is physical testing. By that standard, he looks pretty good-- so far. It seems that the worst case that can be made against Correa at this point (I am not saying I AGREE with this case) is that: --he doesn't come off well in public, to some people. --there were minor flaws in the numbers in his patents. Not that bad. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 03:51:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA18571; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:50:23 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:50:18 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200003181150.MAA05127 front1.grolier.fr> X-Sender: jplentin pop3.club-internet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: New Scientist current issue Resent-Message-ID: <"_JUg81.0.5Y4._rsqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all ! Nice vortex on the cover of New Scientist (dated March 18) ! Interesting article too, about creating laboratory black holes with vortex. The article is available online at : http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_22301.html Also, from the same issue, this strange anecdote on the "Feedback" humorous section : A COLLEAGUE tells us that not so long ago he acquired a beautiful handmade "perpetual motion" machine. German patent expert Gerhard Hennig had flown into London to give a lecture at the Royal Society. At the end of his talk, he brought out a beautifully engineered machine made from steel and aluminium, with a handle that turned a collection of wheels, coils and magnets to send current through a couple of electric sockets and dangling wires. Hennig had lovingly constructed the device at his workshop in Munich, and he used it at the Royal Society to demonstrate a magnetic effect that countless inventors have tried to harness to create perpetual motion machines. Magnetic shields or "insulators" move between magnets and coils to switch a magnetic field and act as a motor and generator. The lecture ended when Hennig turned the handle ever so slightly to ignite a flash bulb and show the kind of energy that could be available--if only there were such a thing as a perfect magnetic insulator. "You can have it," said Hennig, when our colleague admired the machine. To the X-ray machines and customs officials at Munich airport, the device had looked exactly like the key component of a terrorist's bomb. "I dare not try taking it back through Heathrow to Germany," Hennig explained. So Feedback's colleague is now the proud possessor of a beautifully engineered machine that can never be taken anywhere for fear of falling foul of a random security check. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 03:55:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA18559; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:50:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:50:22 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:50:17 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200003181150.MAA05117 front1.grolier.fr> X-Sender: jplentin pop3.club-internet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: Tewari (was : Correa) Resent-Message-ID: <"XqYUN.0.rX4.-rsqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred & all ! Fred Epps wrote : > Tewari --seems to have good results. > Didn't the Indian government test the Tewari generator? > As well as Toby Grotz? Uh oh. You might check : http://www.phact.org/e/z/tewari.htm Now, I'm not endorsing everything on Eric Krieg's free-energy-skeptic site, but sometimes skeptic literature is a good source of information too... In this case, the report written by an Indian engineer about his encounters with Tewari, though flawed with usual skeptic anathema about "violations of thermodynamic laws", does seems to indicate, if you read between the lines, that Mr Tewari is a, let's say, "Newmanesque" con-man character... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Pierre Lentin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 05:32:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30915; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:01 -0800 Message-ID: <004101bf90dd$cf02c2a0$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: Subject: Business Models Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 06:21:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"v4mFT.0.sY7.fFuqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Our colleague Jed has been, shall we say, emphatic, about the proper way to start up a business. As a successful entrepreneur, now independently wealthy, he can speak with some authority. He has contributed insightful essays on the Wright brothers, among other episodes in history. I have a different perspective, not from personal entreprenurship, but from participation in and witnessing successful initiatives and failures of the RCA corporation. I joined in 1949, in the bright forenoon of its existence and was witness to its long decline and eventual purchase and dismemberment by GE, retiring at the beginning of 1989. There are some lessons here. For the latecomers I will recite the accomplishments of David Sarnoff and the corporation he headed. 1. Broadcast radio service on a national scale 2. Broadcast television service on a national scale 3. Compatible color television on a national scale Included in 3 is the technology of the color picture tube, which you are all looking at as you read this message (or a liquid crystal display on a laptop, in which RCA was a pioneer). The accomplishment of (3) was a bet-your-company enterprise, a technical tour-de-force of magnitude. It involved making chickens and eggs at the same time, as with (1) and (2). Somewhat subsidiary to these were, not necessarily in strict historical order: 4. Motion picture sound (competitor - Western Electric) 5. 16 mm film projection (major position, several competitors) 6. 45 RPM phonograph technology (buried by the LP) 7. High intelligibility intercommunication systems for aircraft 8. Wideband, high capacity recorders for satellites 9. Largest electronic computer of its time (Bizmac II) 10. Graphic Systems Division (electronic publishing) 10.1 First comprehensive word processing program 11. Weather satellites 12. High performance solid state TV camera technology 13. Selectavision consumer VCR technology, contributing to - 14. VHS videocassette technology (color and hi-fi sound) 15. Liquid crystal display technology 16. First amorphous silicon solar panels with 10% efficiency 17. Superconducting wire 18. Selectavision video disc system 19. First full hour recording of color TV on a CD-ROM 20. Aegis phased-array radar system for naval vessels 21. Major contributions to HDTV technology I've probably left some things out. I was a Principal Member of Technical Staff, or equivalent, after my ninth year. I directly participated in 7,8 and 10, and peripherally in 13. I was a member of Corporate Manufacturing Staff and later of the Manufacturing Technology Laboratory at the Sarnoff Research Center in Princeton. Germane to the discussion about Mills is the Graphic Systems Division. RCA had made some forays into the publishing business, one being a color separation system using CRT technology which didn't go very far. Flush with money from color TV, RCA decided to combine computer and TV technology in a system to capture the newspaper composing room business. The goal was to produce an entire newspaper page as a film image, from which newspaper printing plates could be made. At that time there was great skepticism that CRT imalging could ever produce graphic arts quality type images. As you read this with your desktop publishing facilities, remember that it began about 1961 with RCA's Graphic Systems Division. RCA's customers were major publishers which were being asked to invest major capital in a new system which sat at the core of their business. It would not do for this to be some auxiliary initiative of some other division, as it was with the earlier color scanner. RCA had to show commitment by setting up a corporate division in its own new building and staffing it with people with a full time, neck-on-the-block commitment to its success. It happened that RCA made an alliance with Firma Hell in Germany, which had an established reputation in image scanning and was also working towards newspaper text preparation. We showed a Hell system at a major show, but it didn't work. All night diagnostics showed that it wasn't going to work. That embarrassment was survived, and for some 6-12 months RCA Graphic Systems had daily visitors from the publishing industry. For several years there were increasing visitors form Japan, finally with a resident team of eight. RCA GSD did succeed in producing a full newspaper text page. The LA Times used an RCA system for the want ads for several years. GSD lasted five years, eventually folded into the computer division, which itself folded and took GSD down with it. Basically, GSD was too early and the goal too high. We were not able to master half tones and charcoal sketches for display ads well enough with the computer storage capacity of the time. High resolution laser writers were still in the future. We could not show the bean counters an assured market that would generate a $50 million annual cash flow. Coming back to Mills, his customers are major corporations who will have to make major investments to develop either the energy or chemical technologies. Therefore, he has to look like a neck-on-the-block startup with suit and tie and facilities in a prestigious area (near Princeton NJ). He has made all the right moves according to this model. Many, many others have followed this trail with success. His investors are all qualified -- able to lose their shirts without also losoing bread on the table. His product is no more vaporous that those in the biotechnology and genetics area which have created an investment feeding frenzy. In the RCA list, some of the enterprises are still going, like the Energizer Bunny. Items 8 and 21are still going, sustained by the government as national resources. Items 15,16, and 17 were spun off from the Sarnoff Center because they didn't fit RCA's marketing posture. Look what happened to liquid crystal technology. Some failed for reasons that would individually make interesting stories, some after investments in the $XXX million. RCA's (and GE's) consumer electronics business is now owned by Thompson of France, which makes Thompson one of the big three or four globally, with Philips (Philips, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvania) and Mashushita (Mashushita, Panasonic, JVC). Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 05:32:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA31006; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:09 -0800 Message-ID: <004401bf90dd$d34bde00$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <029201bf90da$49a9d380$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Subject: Re: Correa (Fred) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:23:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"6VvHG.0.Ha7.mFuqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred said: > I am glad that Jeff Fink > >enjoyed the replication and he does not hold it against us. (Assuming he > >learned about from us.) Something that was "great fun, very dangerous, and > >a terrific light show" can't be all bad. > > The question is whether he actually DID a replication, or just a similar > experiment. I guess I will hear back from him on that. No disrespect to Jeff, he put in a lot of hard work and spent good money. He considered that he had an improvement in mechanical construction which indeed was much more rugged than the rather fragile reactor tubes which Alexandra Correa made. When I visited him, I gently pointed out some significant differences between what he was doing and what I knew of Correa's approach. He replied in effect that he was doing his own thing. Well and good. Scott Little's history is similar. All his efforts to replicate various energy experiments have largely failed. In some of these cases he did something similar, but not identical, to the originator's claim. The most recent instance is the plasma hydrolysis work. I haven't followed it in detail, so I can make no particular comment. Again, no disrespect to Scott. Marett also thought he was replicating, but his tubes failed early because of sputtering, while Correas do not (I believe). Replication means that you have to grasp the essence of the physics, and not do something similar to. Such as been the whole sorry history of CF, where people have not studied and actually replicated the successful work. The whole NHE saga is an example, as Jed can so ably relate. > > Fred > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 05:32:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30931; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:03 -0800 Message-ID: <004201bf90dd$d050ed80$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000317170726.00790d50 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Correa (Jed) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 06:52:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"nUOfX3.0.CZ7.gFuqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed said: > Fred Epps wrote: > > >BTW, I don't believe that Correa is a fraud, because frauds are smooth, > >convincing, and tell what you want to hear. > > Correa seemed sincere to me. Not a bit like a fraud. He seems terribly > gullible, because he believes all these wild, unreplicated claims made by > people like Newman, Moray and Tewari. Jed, just where did he say he believes "all these wild, unreplicated claims by people like Newman, Moray and Tewari"? You put words in his mouth. He did no say anything of the kind in his talk at the Manchester symposium; the transcript is in IE #23, p33. He references Harold Aspden with deserved respect. Gullible he is not, and if you read and understood the patents you would know so. He was indignant because other people > doubt Newman & Co. Where did he say this? I figure a guy who takes those claims at face value > might be fooling himself about his own work. It was so embarrassing . . . I > mean, it's one thing to be open-minded, but to assert they are all correct > and all victims of suppression! No standards. No demand for rigor, no > skeptical doubts. How can you trust his judgment? You were so inflamed by his rhetoric in that talk that you heard things he did not say. And he was talking about areas of physics which you have no understanding of. He is rigorous, he has high technical standards. He gave me a private technical briefing on his physics which was very impressive and at the fringes of my understanding. > > Mills seems sincere to me too. The only thing he does which I consider > unethical is to promise year after year he's going to introduce this or > that product, and then renege without explanation, like a hot fusion > scientist. I was not surprised by his moves, for the technical and commercial problems were rather obvious, and he was quite clear about why the shift from emphasis on energy to chemistry in conversations with me, which I related in my review in IE. You get tired of people crying wolf. When I asked Martin > Fleischmann why he was unable to introduce products as quickly as he hoped > he could, and why IMRA failed, he spent two hours discussing the problems > (on audiotape) and later sent me 15 pages of diagrams describing the > technical difficulties. (I'm hoping he will let me publish this on Internet > someday.) McKubre and Passal have described their technical difficulties in > detail. Real scientists don't just brag about success, they also admit > failure. Which Fleischmann did in an off-the-record private conversation. Fleischmann had the support of the Toyoda family in his very own, built-for-him lab in France, but was unable to turn around the Japanese NHE enterprise. And you dump on Correa for commercial "failure", with Mills hopefully next in line? > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 05:32:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA31049; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:13 -0800 Message-ID: <004501bf90dd$d4047fa0$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <029101bf90da$451c0e00$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Subject: Re: Correa (Fred) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:20:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"kv5jg2.0._a7.rFuqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred said: > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for writing back on this, I know of your long involvement in the > subject... > >The visit was under a nondisclosure agreement which I will honor, but I can > >say some things in response to this flurry of discussion. > > Is it possible to say whether they are still attempting to commercialize it > in some way? I haven't been in touch for several months. At that time there was one more interested party they were going to talk to. They were also contemplating moving from the Toronto area to the Caribbean and proceeding to develop the technology on a small scale with the help of a few friends. The PAGD is only the tip of an iceberg. To get PAGD into commercial form as an energy package one could sell in Rothwellian style is a $10 million + investment. Most of the people who have approached the Correas had some very questionable agendas. His speech at the Manchester symposium, which Jed heard as a rant, was in response to years of effort and dances with jackals. > On one occasion I > >also visited Jeff Fink at an early stage of his attempt to replicate the > >PAGD effect. > >> > >> 1) There is a good evidence that the device works. Not conclusive, but > >good. > > > >Yes, it works. I saw the discharge phenomenon and the input and output > >pulses captured on his lab instrumentation, substantially as reported in my > >IE articles. > > I saw no reason to doubt those results. The critical comments on Vort didn't > seem to strike very deeply. > > > >> 2) There were no serious attempts at replication by others. There was a > >> start in that direction by one Jeff Fink, which went nowhere. > > > >There were "serious" attempts, but without the know-how necessary to evoke > >the energy yield. Jeff put in a lot of effort, to his credit. > > Yes, it wasn't until after his response that I went back and saw how much he > put into it. Still, it doesn't appear to have been replicated as described > in the patents. That's right. > When I > >visited Paulo's lab, it became clear to me that one has to understand the > >physics rather well to get the exact conditions in the reactor tube which > >produce the energy gain. There are lots of conditions which give you the > >light show Jeff saw, without the energy gain. The Correa patents are deep > >tutorials, but you need a real grasp of the physics to "tune" the reactor > >conditions to get what you want. > > Do you have some recommended books or papers to get that grasp? I am reading > heavily in this area now, but it's mostly patents. The patents are your best source, plus the bibliography. The patents are dense technical papers, worthy of a major thesis. The other place to go is Harold Aspden's website and a deep study of his aether physics. In the case of the PAGD reactors, pay attention to the incipient glow conditions, which do not occur according to classical theory. There is a field emission glow that occurs before the discharge collapses into a vortex and the energy comes out. What I glean from all this is that in the conditions plasmas some very, very interesting things can happen, including the release of energy. There are some reports that this release can be violent. > > > >> 3) The Correas made an art form out of shooting themselves in the foot, > as > >> so many inventors do, and they have since gone underground. Nobody misses > >> them much. > > > >This isn't quite fair to the Correas, and largely reflects Jed's stance > with > >respect to any efforts that do not fit his business models. > > I have nothing to go by but the quoted text of their own speech and Jed's > comments, which I consider a bit hyperbolic. As a small businessman I tend > to agree with Jed's view of the ways that inventors can hurt themselves. On > the other hand, how inventors present themselves or act has nothing to do > with whether their ideas work, and that is all I really care about here. How inventors present themselves has a great deal to do with commercial success. And Correa's personality does not fit a commercial mold. Mills is better at presenting a corporate face. > > I can say that > >it should be possible to make PAGD reactors that will work in the test > >circuit, but they won't work very long before operation causes the critical > >conditions to change and the energy yield will disappear, leaving a light > >show. > > Yes, I understand the cathode erosion is a major problem in maintaining > performance. Are there other major problems? Yes, but I can't go further without violating my nondisclosure agreement. There is an obvious external problem, visible in the patents. It is the pulse nature of the discharge. You get very strong pulses if the system is set for a pulse very second or so, and much weaker pulses if the PAGD fires rapidly. Tables in the patents show that the energy gain may be less than ten under rapid fire conditions. The discharge can't be triggered to stabilize the frequency without losing the energy gain. Thus you have a problem interfacing it with the external world, and with making a self-sustaining system without a mountain of batteries. I have given thought to some electromagnetic transducers which might function as interfaces to the outside world. If Correa ever got substantial funding, some of my notions might be useful. > > > There is a significant R&D effort necessary to go from the effect to a > >commercially usable system. It is not as simple as it appears, and has > >nothing to do with the structural fragility of the reactors which have been > >pictured. > > Yes, I can see that. For myself I am trying to establish whether the effect > is based on the gas/metal boundary, or whether it is strictly a gas ion > effect. If it is a gas effect, the abnormal glow could be created with an > induction coil or electrostatic means. Be clear about this: Correa's PAGD shows significant bursts of energy coming out of nowhere by a mechanism few people grasp at all. There is "new" physics here, although people have been seeing strange things in plasmas for decades. I won't pretend to have any glib explanation for it. Study of it led Correa to discover new depths to physics in unpublished work that is as extensive as Mills'. Correa thinks Mills has it wrong, by the way. Correa respects Aspden, and Aspden has written an essay about aether interactions in the PAGD. > > > >As to why the necessary connections and sponsorship have not occurred, I > see > >no merit in discussing it in this forum. > > No problem with me. I was basically summarizing the statements on Vortex so > far, and wondering whether there has been further work in this area. I > didn't mean to come off sounding so negative about the Correas. I'm neutral > on that. I admit the statements on the list have colored my viewpoint. Naturally. And I have tried to correct misperceptions as they arose. Some of the comments have been about his 'business' practices; Jed, for example. There have been glib remarks by people who did not actually study the Correa material as thoroughly as I did. I approached Correa as a student wanting to learn, and found him receptive. We became friends. He isn't perfect, but I will continue to defend his position against people who attack it without understanding it. > I understand Paulo's viewpoint, it > >is not shared by others, but he is not acting in an irrational manner, > given > >the parameters of the big picture he sees. > He was generous to share that > >with me, but it will remain private. It may be that his work, both > >theoretical and practical, may fade into obscurity. He understands that as > a > >possibility. > > That would be too bad. Thanks again, Mike. You are most welcome. I have hoped that funding would become available to sponsor the work that Paulo wants to do in the ethical environment he wants. It hasn't happened yet. Mike From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 05:33:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30968; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:26:06 -0800 Message-ID: <004301bf90dd$d13448a0$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000317184208.025c6a10 inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Correa (Colin) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:09:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF90A8.F6BC3C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"PBo1D2.0.oZ7.jFuqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF90A8.F6BC3C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Colin Quinney=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 6:42 PM Subject: Re: Correa=20 Hi Fred, At 01:18 AM 03/18/00 -0800, Fred Epps wrote: >Later, Mike Carrell said: > >Marett goes on to say that he began replicating the Correa's work the = week >after the application was laid open, and says he saw discharge forms = similar >to those seen in pictures in the Reich museum. I have seen them also = in a >discharge chamber built by Jeff Fink, but they do not produce excess = energy. >It is only after Marett saw the Correa application that he introduced = the >"low impedance" source. He blurs this; it is essential to have a = driving >source which is internally rugged and stable, ***and*** the correct = current >limiter, which my be only a few hundred ohms with the rather large = electrode >areas. Marett claims to have produced excess energy in the manner of = the >Correas, ***after*** reading their application. > Just to set the record straight, it was at this time that Paulo Correa = cleverly initiated a series of personal attacks and a threat of a = lawsuit. I point this out so that folks will understand why Doug = recanted, and also perhaps why he did not even bother to challenge Mike = Carrell's interpretation of his words.=20 MC: The relationship between Correa and Douglas Marett is a complex one, = extending over a period of many years. Details of the affair are in a = long essay on the Correas website. Suffice it to say that his brother = David Marett accompanied Correa to his talk at the Manchester symposium, = and they (David and Paulo) remain on good terms to this day. Douglas = accused Correa of copying the work of Reich without credit, which is = factually untrue. He had access to Correa's lab as a teenager and copied = what he thought was the PAGD reactor but without the necessary = understanding to make it work as Correa did. It was Douglas Marett who = attacked first, Correa defended himself with a threat of suit which led = Douglas Marett to withdraw.=20 Sometimes I think the best path to take is knowing when to fold 'em. A = good reporter however, tries to get both sides of a story directly from = the main participants, but I doubt that Mike had ever spoken with or = even tried to contact Doug as any professional science reporter would = have done. As anyone who has ever been written up in a news story knows, = there's almost always more to the story than meets the ink. MC: Colin hasn't duplicated the story which is available, nor looked = at the Correa website, which I believe I cited in the earlier = discussions. Having spent a couple of days with Paulo, I can understand = how one could get into personality conflicts. As for being a = "professional" science reporter, I do not pretend such, if that means = finding and broadcasting the weaknesses of anyone's position. Gary = Taubes makes his living as a science reporter, and his book about CF is = laced with innuendo with no foundation, which has done great damage to = the CF enterprise. I hope to do better than that, thank you.=20 Colin Quinney ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF90A8.F6BC3C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Colin=20 Quinney
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 = 6:42=20 PM
Subject: Re: Correa

Hi Fred,

At 01:18 AM 03/18/00 -0800, Fred Epps=20 wrote:
>Later, Mike Carrell said:
>
>Marett goes on = to say=20 that he began replicating the Correa's work the week
>after the=20 application was laid open, and says he saw discharge forms = similar
>to=20 those seen in pictures in the Reich museum. I have seen them also in=20 a
>discharge chamber built by Jeff Fink, but they do not produce = excess=20 energy.
>It is only after Marett saw the Correa application that = he=20 introduced the
>"low impedance" source. He blurs this; it is = essential=20 to have a driving
>source which is internally rugged and stable, = ***and*** the correct current
>limiter, which my be only a few = hundred=20 ohms with the rather large electrode
>areas. Marett claims to = have=20 produced excess energy in the manner of the
>Correas, = ***after***=20 reading their application.
>

Just to set the record = straight, it=20 was at this time that Paulo Correa cleverly initiated a series of = personal=20 attacks and a threat of a lawsuit. I point this out so that folks will = understand why Doug recanted, and also perhaps why he did not even = bother to=20 challenge Mike Carrell's interpretation of his words.
 
MC: The relationship between Correa and = Douglas=20 Marett is a complex one, extending over a period of many years. Details = of the=20 affair are in a long essay on the Correas website. Suffice it to say = that his=20 brother David Marett accompanied Correa to his talk at the Manchester = symposium,=20 and they (David and Paulo) remain on good terms to this day. Douglas = accused=20 Correa of copying the work of Reich without credit, which is factually = untrue.=20 He had access to Correa's lab as a teenager and copied what he thought = was the=20 PAGD reactor but without the necessary understanding to make it work as = Correa=20 did. It was Douglas Marett who attacked first, Correa defended himself = with a=20 threat of suit which led Douglas Marett to withdraw.
Sometimes I think the best path to take is knowing when to fold = 'em. A=20 good reporter however, tries to get both sides of a story directly = from the=20 main participants, but I doubt that Mike had ever spoken with or even = tried to=20 contact Doug as any professional science reporter would have = done. As=20 anyone who has ever been written up in a news story knows, there's = almost=20 always more to the story than meets the ink.
 
MC: Colin hasn't duplicated the story which is available, nor = looked at=20 the Correa website, which I believe I cited in the earlier = discussions. Having=20 spent a couple of days with Paulo, I can understand how one could get = into=20 personality conflicts. As for being a "professional" science reporter, = I do=20 not pretend such, if that means finding and broadcasting the = weaknesses of=20 anyone's position. Gary Taubes makes his living as a science reporter, = and his=20 book about CF is laced with innuendo with no foundation, which has = done great=20 damage to the CF enterprise. I hope to do better than that, thank you. =


Colin Quinney
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF90A8.F6BC3C20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 06:19:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA11234; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 06:18:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 06:18:40 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.20000318142004.0095cd28 metro.lakes.com> X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:20:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Thomas Malloy Subject: Re: New Mills paper Resent-Message-ID: <"49YoF.0.Sl2._0vqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lawrence Wharton Wrote; > >This is truly bizarre. Mills seems to think that he can take his >previous nonsense work, which used the wrong equation, insert a >description of the correct equation but not use it in the derivation, >and fool the reader into thinking he has used the correct equation. >It is amazing that Mills thinks that the intelligence of the readers >of the paper would be so low that they would be fooled by this crude >misdirection. It is just this kind of behavior on the part of Dr. Mills that makes me glad that we don't have any money invested in BLP. Thomas Malloy, Minnesota Real Estate Broker 2433 S. 16 Ave. Minneapolis, MN 55404 612 722 0069 fax 413 647 9599 temalloy metro.lakes.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 07:10:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26094; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:09:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:09:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318100637.007a7470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:06:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! In-Reply-To: <003001bf9063$6aa31d20$924bccd1 mikecarr> References: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"plyb6.0.eN6.kmvqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike C wrote: >> What I meant would be self-evident to an investor. Frequent changes, >> reincorporating, relocations are a sign of instability. . . . >All this seems like a well planned expansion, even if it does not fit Jed's >preferred business plan. . . It cannot be "expansion." They have no sales. You might call it enhanced R&D or a faster "burn rate" (rate of venture capital consumption), but I do not see how you can call any of these activities business "expansion." Jed says that if they only sold somethings early on >they would confound skeptics and would get plenty of cash. Well, they are >apparently giving away somethings (samples of the hydrino hydride compounds) >that are confounding the people who really look at them, and someone has >stuffed $25 million cash in their hands, with more waiting in line, >checkbooks in hand. Yes, it may be that they are quietly doing what I would recommend. I hope so! I would do it publicly, on a scale a thousand times larger, in order to attract billions instead of only $25 million, but the principle is the same. That is, I would sell hydrino generators and hydrinos to any customer, and advertise to the world. Assuming there is no danger from these things. If they produce radiation or they are poison that is a whole different story. I do not think they are toxic. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 07:18:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28670; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:18:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:18:12 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318101513.007ac400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:15:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Correa In-Reply-To: <029101bf90da$451c0e00$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_Hm5-.0.u_6.quvqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: >I have nothing to go by but the quoted text of their own speech and Jed's >comments, which I consider a bit hyperbolic. As a small businessman I tend >to agree with Jed's view of the ways that inventors can hurt themselves. On >the other hand, how inventors present themselves or act has nothing to do >with whether their ideas work, and that is all I really care about here. I agree! I am not critisizing the Correa technical claims. I cannot judge them. The only thing about Correa that upsets me is his hostility toward his (potential) customers, his business plan, his attitude, and his naieve acceptance of other people's claims. Paul Brown may be wrong and Correa may be right, but Brown does a much better job of communicating with scientists, investors and businessmen. That was my only point. I am not here to critique technical claims, except in CF and calorimetry. That is not my role. I am interested in the business models, web pages, plans for spending R&D money, legal and patent strategies and so on. People who do not want to read about those subjects can skip my messages -- as I am sure they do. I am anxious to hear from Mike and other people what the Correa's technical prospects are, but I cannot contribute much to that discussion. The technical discussions are vital because the best business planning will come to naught if the gadget does not actually work. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 07:19:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28758; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:18:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:18:32 -0800 Message-ID: <380138344.953392709370.JavaMail.root web34.pub01> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:18:29 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Business Models Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.231 Resent-Message-ID: <"MZCmR2.0.D17.8vvqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, I much appreciate your post. I am glad to learn of so many positive contributions by RCA. My own experience was with the dark side of the RCA Corporation. I was an Executive Trainee at Ampex in 1953. RCA reverse engineered our Model 2000, which built the company. It was used by virtually every network and recording studio and sold in those days for $3,000. RCA produced the identical machine, in spite of Ampex patents, with only the nameplate changed. They apparently assumed a small firm would never be able to mount an effective court challenge. As it happened Bing Crosby's money was behind Ampex and RCA lost in court. I remember being told once that it was only the second time they lost a patent case. RCA never again built a tape recorder that looked anything like an Ampex machine. This illustrates a very difficult problem faced by small, often undercapitalized, high tech firms. One patent is usually not enough to survive a serious predatory challenge by a large firm which often will make a conscious decision to ignore patents. A good example was the Fonar battle with GE. Fonar owns the two fundamental patents on the MRI. GE ignored them. Fonar, unlike most small companies in their position, was able to find an able patent litigator whose firm took the case on contingency. GE was forced by the court to wire transfer more than $128 million to Fonar after losing a battle strung out over many years. That victory is a rare exception to the rule. Intellectual Property law reflects a serious structural problem. Defense of a major technology breakthrough can easily require $50 million to $100 million in legal fees and costs. The inventor of the water-bed lives in this area and successfully solved the cost problem by having a law-firm sell participations in the lawsuit. They finally won - and all the lawsuit investors received a part of the proceeds. Jed's often perceptive comments fall far short in this area of business. Success seems to require strategy and tactics typical of a military campaign - especially where a reliable product generating profitable cash flow takes years of R&D and very deep pockets. The ceramic superconductors were the fallout of work at IBM Zurich announced in 1986 that won a nobel prize for Muller & Bednorz. For the first time last year five small companies began selling the first products, all either subsidized or sold below cost. The companies that went public have only seen any real interest in their stock in the last two months. One of these firms, American Superconductor, has done several public offerings and was launched with $80 million in cash infusions by the Venture Capital community. Their most recent offering was sold in less that a week early this month and brought in $205 million net. They have more than 100 patents. They have excellent PR and make ceramic wire that is 60% silver in order to gain flexibility. To carry much current it was discovered that the temperature had to be closer to that of liquid helium than liquid nitrogen. Huge government support has been available to the ceramic superconductor work both here and in Japan - and still profitability remains a hope and a promise. But then, some of us continue to defy the odds... Mark Goldes, Chairman & CEO, Magnetic Power Inc. and Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. (a susidiary) ------Original Message------ From: "Mike C" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: March 18, 2000 11:21:39 AM GMT Subject: Business Models Our colleague Jed has been, shall we say, emphatic, about the proper way to start up a business. As a successful entrepreneur, now independently wealthy, he can speak with some authority. He has contributed insightful essays on the Wright brothers, among other episodes in history. I have a different perspective, not from personal entreprenurship, but from participation in and witnessing successful initiatives and failures of the RCA corporation. I joined in 1949, in the bright forenoon of its existence and was witness to its long decline and eventual purchase and dismemberment by GE, retiring at the beginning of 1989. There are some lessons here. For the latecomers I will recite the accomplishments of David Sarnoff and the corporation he headed. 1. Broadcast radio service on a national scale 2. Broadcast television service on a national scale 3. Compatible color television on a national scale Included in 3 is the technology of the color picture tube, which you are all looking at as you read this message (or a liquid crystal display on a laptop, in which RCA was a pioneer). The accomplishment of (3) was a bet-your-company enterprise, a technical tour-de-force of magnitude. It involved making chickens and eggs at the same time, as with (1) and (2). Somewhat subsidiary to these were, not necessarily in strict historical order: 4. Motion picture sound (competitor - Western Electric) 5. 16 mm film projection (major position, several competitors) 6. 45 RPM phonograph technology (buried by the LP) 7. High intelligibility intercommunication systems for aircraft 8. Wideband, high capacity recorders for satellites 9. Largest electronic computer of its time (Bizmac II) 10. Graphic Systems Division (electronic publishing) 10.1 First comprehensive word processing program 11. Weather satellites 12. High performance solid state TV camera technology 13. Selectavision consumer VCR technology, contributing to - 14. VHS videocassette technology (color and hi-fi sound) 15. Liquid crystal display technology 16. First amorphous silicon solar panels with 10% efficiency 17. Superconducting wire 18. Selectavision video disc system 19. First full hour recording of color TV on a CD-ROM 20. Aegis phased-array radar system for naval vessels 21. Major contributions to HDTV technology I've probably left some things out. I was a Principal Member of Technical Staff, or equivalent, after my ninth year. I directly participated in 7,8 and 10, and peripherally in 13. I was a member of Corporate Manufacturing Staff and later of the Manufacturing Technology Laboratory at the Sarnoff Research Center in Princeton. Germane to the discussion about Mills is the Graphic Systems Division. RCA had made some forays into the publishing business, one being a color separation system using CRT technology which didn't go very far. Flush with money from color TV, RCA decided to combine computer and TV technology in a system to capture the newspaper composing room business. The goal was to produce an entire newspaper page as a film image, from which newspaper printing plates could be made. At that time there was great skepticism that CRT imalging could ever produce graphic arts quality type images. As you read this with your desktop publishing facilities, remember that it began about 1961 with RCA's Graphic Systems Division. RCA's customers were major publishers which were being asked to invest major capital in a new system which sat at the core of their business. It would not do for this to be some auxiliary initiative of some other division, as it was with the earlier color scanner. RCA had to show commitment by setting up a corporate division in its own new building and staffing it with people with a full time, neck-on-the-block commitment to its success. It happened that RCA made an alliance with Firma Hell in Germany, which had an established reputation in image scanning and was also working towards newspaper text preparation. We showed a Hell system at a major show, but it didn't work. All night diagnostics showed that it wasn't going to work. That embarrassment was survived, and for some 6-12 months RCA Graphic Systems had daily visitors from the publishing industry. For several years there were increasing visitors form Japan, finally with a resident team of eight. RCA GSD did succeed in producing a full newspaper text page. The LA Times used an RCA system for the want ads for several years. GSD lasted five years, eventually folded into the computer division, which itself folded and took GSD down with it. Basically, GSD was too early and the goal too high. We were not able to master half tones and charcoal sketches for display ads well enough with the computer storage capacity of the time. High resolution laser writers were still in the future. We could not show the bean counters an assured market that would generate a $50 million annual cash flow. Coming back to Mills, his customers are major corporations who will have to make major investments to develop either the energy or chemical technologies. Therefore, he has to look like a neck-on-the-block startup with suit and tie and facilities in a prestigious area (near Princeton NJ). He has made all the right moves according to this model. Many, many others have followed this trail with success. His investors are all qualified -- able to lose their shirts without also losoing bread on the table. His product is no more vaporous that those in the biotechnology and genetics area which have created an investment feeding frenzy. In the RCA list, some of the enterprises are still going, like the Energizer Bunny. Items 8 and 21are still going, sustained by the government as national resources. Items 15,16, and 17 were spun off from the Sarnoff Center because they didn't fit RCA's marketing posture. Look what happened to liquid crystal technology. Some failed for reasons that would individually make interesting stories, some after investments in the $XXX million. RCA's (and GE's) consumer electronics business is now owned by Thompson of France, which makes Thompson one of the big three or four globally, with Philips (Philips, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvania) and Mashushita (Mashushita, Panasonic, JVC). Mike Carrell Mark Goldes ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 07:25:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31077; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:25:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:25:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318102210.0079b210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:22:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Running with K In-Reply-To: <6.36dbcda.26043192 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mQfzU2.0.Vb7.G_vqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > Hmm, interesting thought Jed, however I started this out of pure >curiosity and if I should be standing in line for a then (1998) remote >possibility of an IPO. I never wanted to make any money off of this >as a marketable "device", just wanted to make an investment decision. Even if your experiments were purely scientific, they are a matter of public record here in Vortex. You may have priority. Someone else (perhaps a large corporation) might be able to cite them to invalidate the Mills patent. Perhaps not the entire patent, but the glow discharge portions might be vulnerable. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 07:28:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31180; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:25:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:25:35 -0800 Message-Id: <200003181525.KAA20608 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Climates of Change Conference Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:17:02 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"uqtVJ2.0.2d7.l_vqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians, After the APS Deuterium/Palladium session on Monday, March 20th, I'll be off to the conference in Victoria, BC, where I'll give a short talk, show Cold Fusion: Fire from Water, and discuss recent political and business developments in cold fusion, LENR, etc.. Program below. Gene Mallove ****** As a Speaker, we hope you will continue to assist us in making this a successful event by promoting it to your colleagues and associates. Keith C. Heidorn, PhD, ACM for the Climates of Change Secretariat -- Climates of Change Congress Secretariat Coordinator Visit our Websites at: http://www.climatesofchange.com http://www.skiesabove.org We invite you to visit Spectrum's sites: The Weather Doctor http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/doctor.htm Living Gently Quarterly http://www.islandnet.com/~see/living.htm Climates of Change Congress March 19-22, 2000 Victoria Conference Centre Victoria, British Columbia Mapping the transition to a sustainable energy future Featuring Public Conference First Nations Congress Rotary Young Leaders Congress Public Evening Lectures March 19, 20, 21, 22, 2000 What are the Objectives? 1. To establish the evidence of the rapid deterioration of our global climate. 2. To prepare Community Action Plans listing actions which may be taken to prevent or prepare for these adverse global changes. 3. To promote thoughtful diversion of investment from fossil fuels to alternative energy sources. 4. To encourage innovative emission reduction strategies. 5. To promote research and development into new, clean, renewable, and cost-effective energy and environmental strategies. 6. To promote monetary and economic reform to encourage sustainability by allowing environmental and social change to happen. 7. To encourage youth, seniors, the disabled, and the public to change lifestyles to protect the climate. 8. To encourage political, business and youth leaders to support post-congress planning and development of strategies to manifest a collective vision of a sustainable future. 9. To communicate and share information, thoughts and strategies. 10. To build workplaces based on ethics, trust and respect. Who Should Attend? Students, faculty and staff who are concerned and who wish to know more about what is impacting our climate and how to reduce our impacts on the earth. Community leaders, community planners, environmentalists and industrialists seeking to be part of the solution. Government, policy makers and politicians. Scientists, economists, business and union leaders, conservationists and concerned citizens who are committed to helping change our course. Why Should You Attend? The global climate is deteriorating. By changing our investments from the search for more fossil fuels to funding research and development of new, clean, alternative, and renewable fuels-solar, wind, geothermal, tidal powers, fuel cells, cold fusion, zero point energy-we can thrive! Learn, and discover how to step more lightly on Planet Earth and map the transition to a sustainable energy future. PROGRAM Sunday March 19, 2000 Young Leaders Congress Opening Event: 1 PM Location: TBA Congress Opening Event & Concert: 7:30 PM PUBLIC SESSION Location: University of Victoria University Centre Auditorium Featuring Ann Mortifee, Robert Bateman and Dr Richard Gammon. Join us for a special evening of music and inspiration. Monday March 20, 2000 Climate Science Day 9 AM to 5 PM Location: Victoria Conference Centre Following an introduction to the issues by Hazel Henderson, Dr Fred Knelman, Dr Robert Falls and Guy Dauncey the session will focus on our scientific understanding of climate change potentials and impacts. 7:30 PM PUBLIC SESSION Location: Victoria Conference Centre Featuring talks by Hazel Henderson, Linda Compton and Ann Mortifee. Tuesday March 21, 2000 New Energies Day 9 AM to 5 PM Location: Victoria Conference Centre Speakers will share bold visions for new energy sources and will describe the potential for solar, wind, tidal, geothermal and other energy sources to help us map the transition to a sustainable energy future. 7:30 PM PUBLIC SESSION Location: Victoria Conference Centre Featuring talks by Dr Fred Knelman, Peter Bunyard, Science Editor, "The Ecologist", (UK), and Mary Altomare, The Natural Step. Wednesday March 22, 2000 Solutions Day 9 AM to 5 PM Location: Victoria Conference Centre Keynote speakers on solutions and reports and action plans from the Rotary Young Leaders Congress, First Nations Congress and the Thinkers Congress. 7:30 PM PUBLIC SESSION Location: Victoria Conference Centre Following a report on the Congress and its resolutions, Ian McAllister will present his slide show: "The Great Bear Rainforest." Speakers Mary Altomare - The Natural Step Canada Robert Bateman - Artist and Visionary Jack Biddell - Author and Economist Alex Boston, The David Suzuki Foundation Michael Bloomfield, The Harmony Foundation of Canada Dr Timothy Brennand - University of East Anglia, UK Peter Bunyard - Science Editor, The Ecologist, UK Martin Burger - CEO, Blue Energy Canada Inc. Dr Howard Conway - University of Washington Mark Comings - Energy Innovations Linda Crompton - CEO, Citizen's Bank Guy Dauncey - Sustainable Communities Consultancy Nick DeCarlo - Canadian Auto Workers Jim Dehlsen - Zond Wind Energy Corp. Dr Robert Falls - Carboncorp Management Ltd Don Fast - Assistant Deputy Minister, BC Ministry of Environment, Land and Parks Hal Fox - Editor, Journal of New Energy Howard Freeland - Institute of Ocean Sciences Robert Freling - Solar Electric Light Fund Dr Richard Gammon -University of Washington David Hatherton - Geothermal Energy Expert Dr Keith Heidorn - The Weather Doctor, Spectrum Educational Enterprises Hon. Paul Hellyer - Former Canadian Deputy Prime Minister; Leader, Canada Action Party Hazel Henderson - Economist and Futurist Blair Henry - Northwest Council on Climate Change Dr Fred Knelman - Professor and Author, The Whistler Foundation Dr Stephen Leatherman - Florida International University Todd Litman - Victoria Transport Policy Institute Dr Orie Loucks - University of Miami (Ohio) Dr Eugene Mallove - New Energy Research Lab Jeane Manning - Author/Researcher *Alvin M. Marks - Scientist & Inventor Ian McAllister - Raincoast Conservation Society Colleen McCrory - The Valhalla Wilderness Society Ann Mortifee - Musician & Artist, BC Arts Council Brian Nattrass - The Natural Step Canada Dr John Robinson - SDRI, Univ. of British Columbia Hon. Tom Roper - Former Minister, State of Victoria, Australia Rhys Roth - Climate Solutions, Olympia WA Dr Joan Russow - Leader, Green Party of Canada Chief Robert Sam - First Nations Leader, Songhees Nation Eric Taylor - Environment Canada, Pacific and Yukon Region John Topping - The Climate Institute Bruce Torrie - The Skies Above Foundation Government of Canada Representative (TBA) BC Government Representatives (TBA) Our Current Partners Atmospheric Caucus, CEN/BCEN British Columbia Cycling Coalition BC Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks Canadian Auto Workers Carboncorp Management Ltd. Centre for Global Studies (U. of Victoria) Citizens Action to Save the Environment Society The Climate Institute, Washington, DC Environment Canada The Garden Path Nursery The Globe Foundation of Canada Greater Victoria Cycling Coalition Greater Victoria Electric Railway Society The Green Parties of British Columbia and Canada International Centre for Earth Renewal International Law Education Foundation Harmony Foundation of Canada Hilltop Media Foundation Northwest Council on Climate Change Nuclear Age Peace Foundation Rotary Victoria Harbourside The Sage Foundation Skies Above Foundation Spectrum Educational Enterprises Sunshine Communications Sustainable Communities Consultancy Sustainable Development Research Institute (SDRI), Univ. of British Columbia Teamwork Consulting The Victoria Foundation Webcob Partnership Whistler Foundation World Business Academy Supporting Patrons: BC Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks Environment Canada International Centre for Earth Renewal The Victoria Foundation For Congress updates, visit our website at: www.climatesofchange.com Telephone: (250) 391-9223 Fax: (250) 391-9280 email: skies islandnet.com The Skies Above Foundation c/o 903 Dawn Lane Victoria, BC, Canada V9B 5A6 www.skiesabove.org Climates of Change Congress Schedule (current to January 24, 2000)) (Note: *Speaker To Be Confirmed) SUNDAY MARCH 19, 2000 OPENING SESSION YOUNG LEADERS CONGRESS 1 PM University of Victoria Location: TBA Orientation & Opening: Rotary District 5020 Governor, Ken Balsley Presentations by: Michael Bloomfield Harmony Foundation of Canada Alex Boston David Suzuki Foundation SPEAKERS AND THINKERS CONGRESS RECEPTION 4 PM Location TBA CONGRESS OPENING PUBLIC SESSION 7:30 PM University Centre Auditorium: University of Victoria FEATURING: Robert Bateman Dr Richard Gammon Ann Mortifee Gettin' Higher Choir MONDAY MARCH 20, 2000 9AM to 5:30 PM Registration Victoria Conference Centre CLIMATE SCIENCE DAY 9 AM: Welcome & Opening Opening Remarks: Chief Robert Sam, Songhees Nation *Hon. Andrew Petter, BC Minister, Inter-Governmental Affairs General Overview: Dr Fred Knelman Economic Overview: Hazel Henderson Morning Tea - 30 min. Energy Solutions: Dr Robert Falls Energy Solutions: Guy Dauncey The Jubilee Project: The Hon. Paul Hellyer Lunch: 12:00 - 1:00 Young Leaders, First Nations and Thinkers Congress Meetings AFTERNOON SESSION 1 PM PRESENTING THE EVIDENCE Overview on Climate Change: Peter Bunyard Global Politics & Reality: The Hon. Tom Roper Climate Change & Sustainability: Dr John Robinson Hurricanes & Storms: Dr Stephen Leatherman Afternoon Tea 30 min. Climate Change in Brtish Columbia: Eric Taylor El Nino/La Nina and Climate Change: Howard Freeland The Future of Antarctica Ice: Dr Howard Conway Ozone Depletion & Climate: Dr Keith Heidorn Dinner Break EVENING PUBLIC SESSION 7:30 PM Victoria Conference Centre FEATURING: Hazel Henderson Linda Crompton Ann Mortifee TUESDAY MARCH 21, 2000 9AM to 5:30 PM Registration Victoria Conference Centre NEW ENERGY DAY 9 AM: Welcome BOLD ENERGY VISIONS Renewable Energy for China: Dr Timothy Brennand Solar Electric Light Fund: Robert Freling Fuel Cells: Dr Orie Loucks Morning Tea - 30 min. OTHER ENERGY SOURCES Wind Energy: Jim Dehlsen Geothermal Energy: David Hatherton Tidal Energy: Martin Burger Lunch: 12:00 - 1:00 Young Leaders, First Nations and Thinkers Congress Meetings AFTERNOON SESSION 1 PM ALTERNATE TECHNOLOGIES New Energy Solutions: Hal Fox Cold Fusion: Dr Eugene Mallove Solar Electric Innovations: Alvin Marks/Jeane Manning Zero Point Energy: Mark Comings Afternoon Tea 30 min. Making the Transition: Global Solutions: John Topping Clean Energy Revolution: Rhys Roth The Natural Step - Canada: Brian Nattress Win-Win Transportation Solutions: Todd Litman Banquet EVENING PUBLIC SESSION 7:30 PM Victoria Conference Centre FEATURING: Dr Fred Knelman Overview on Climate Change: Paul Bunyard, Science Editor, "The Ecologist" (UK) The Natural Step: Mary Altomare Young Leaders Congress Event/Session? WEDNESDAY MAR 22, 2000 9AM to 5:30 PM Registration Victoria Conference Centre SOLUTIONS DAY 9 AM: Welcome Don Fast, Asst. Deputy Minister, BC Minister of Environment, Land & Parks Government of Canada Representative (TBA) Canadian Auto Workers Initiatives: *Buzz Hargrove/Nick DeCarlo View from the First Nations: First Nations Speaker (TBA) Morning Tea - 30 min. Solutions for Cities: Blair Henry Setting Political Agendas: Dr Joan Russow Monetary Reform: Jack Biddell Canada's Forests: Colleen McCrory Lunch: 12:00 - 1:00 AFTERNOON SESSION 1 PM Congress Reports: Young Leaders Congress Thinkers Congress First Nation Congress Afternoon Tea 30 min. Discussions: Proposed Solutions and Action Plans Awards and Presentations Closing Ceremonies Closing Remarks: Bruce Torrie Dinner Break EVENING PUBLIC SESSION 7:30 PM Victoria Conference Centre Congress Reports & Summary Slide Show: "The Great Bear Rainforest" Presented by Ian McAllister Climates of Change Congress Mapping the Transition to a Sustainable Energy Future March 19 - 22, 2000 Victoria, B.C. Canada REGISTRATION FORM REGULAR REGISTRATION Sunday Evening, March 19, 2000 only $ 10.00 Full advance registration, March 19-22, 2000 $395.00 Full (at the door) registration $495.00 Daily participation $170.00 Evening events, (Mon/Tues/Wed) $10.00 Subscription for published proceedings To be established STUDENTS, DISABLED, AND SENIORS (Living Lightly) Sunday only $6.00 Full advance registration $200.00 Full (at the door) registration $250.00 Daily participation $90.00 Evening events, (Mon/Tues/Wed) $6.00 A limited number of bursaries are available for students, disabled, and Seniors, and living lightly. Please contact the Conference Secretariat. Please make cheques payable to the "Climates of Change Congress." (If paying in US Funds use 70% or current exchange rate). Name________________________________________________________________ Address___________________________________ City_______________________ Prov./State ________________ Postal/Zip Code ______________ Phone__________________________ Fax ________________________ Email ______________________________________ MAIL REGISTRATION FORM TO: Climates of Change Congress Secretariat c/o 903 Dawn Lane, Victoria, BC V9B 5A6 Phone: 250-391-9223 Fax: 250-391-9280 email: skies islandnet.com FOR ACCOMMODATIONS Please see our website for information www.climatesofchange.com PARTNER HOTELS: Executive House Hotel The Empress Climates of Change Congress Mapping the Transition to a Sustainable Energy Future March 19-22, 2000 Victoria, British Columbia Partner Hotel Information EXECUTIVE HOUSE HOTEL 777 Douglas Street Victoria, BC, Canada. V8W 2B5 Toll free reservations:1-800-663-7001 Phone (local): 250-388-5111, FAX: 250-385-1323 EMAIL: executivehouse executivehouse.com WEB: http://www.executivehouse.com/ Hotel Information Executive House Hotel gives you the very best of Victoria! World-class hospitality, full- service hotel facilities and all the luxury you'd expect in the finest downtown hotel. Best of all, it is located across the street from the Victoria Conference Centre, with spectacular views of the Inner Harbour and Olympic Mountains. Climates of Change Congress Room Information The Executive House will hold a block of 60 rooms for the Congress until February 16, 2000. To receive the special Congress room rate, you must identify the Climates of Change Congress affiliation at time of registration. Special rates apply from March 17-23, additional days before or after this period subject to availability. Climates of Change Congress Room Rates Guest Rooms Rates(Canadian $) Rates (approx. US$, see note below) Single/Double 70.00 49.00 Additional Person 15.00 10.50 Note 1: US price based on $1Canadian = $US 0.70. Exchange Rate may vary. Note 2: Rates are subject to 10% Provincial Sales Tax and 7% Goods and Services Tax. All rooms include complimentary coffee and tea service. Parking is available for $2.00 plus tax per day and is subject to availability. There is no additional charge for children under the age of sixteen who will be sharing their parent's room. For further hotel information, please contact the Executive House Hotel at the address/phone/fax/email given above. THE EMPRESS 721 Government St, Victoria, BC, Canada. V8W 1W5 Toll free reservations: 1-800-441-1414 (Canada and United States) Phone (local): 250-384-8111; Fax: (250) 381-5959 EMAIL: reserve grc.cphotels.ca WEB: http://www.cphotels.com/cp.asp?loc=empress Hotel Information Rising regally on the banks of Victoria harbour stands The Empress. Originally built in 1908, this fabulous hotel has been completely restored. Whether you want to experience British tradition with The Empress' famous Afternoon Tea, engage in an exciting tour of the area, or stroll the city's quaint shops, The Empress is an excellent choice. Located in the heart of the most extraordinary surroundings, they offer some of the most spectacular attractions you may ever experience. The possibilities within walking distance of our doors are endless. The Empress is connected to the Victoria Conference Centre. Climates of Change Congress Room Information The Empress will hold a block of 40 rooms for the Congress until February 16, 2000. To receive the special Congress room rate, you must identify the Skies Above Foundation / Climates of Change Congress affiliation at time of registration. Special rates apply from March 18-23, additional days before or after this period subject to availability. Climates of Change Congress Room Rates Guest Rooms Rates(Canadian $) Rates (US$, see note below) Single/Double 110.00 77.00 Additional Person 30.00 21.00 Note 1: US price based on $1Canadian = $US 0.70. Exchange Rate may vary. Note 2: Rates are subject to 10% Provincial Sales Tax and 7% Goods and Services Tax. There is no additional charge for children under the age of eighteen who will be sharing their parent's room. For further hotel information, please contact The Empress Hotel at the address/phone /fax/email given above. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 08:22:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15243; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:20:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:20:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318111744.00799170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:17:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Business Models In-Reply-To: <004101bf90dd$cf02c2a0$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NP2eb2.0.5k3.Spwqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike C wrote: >Coming back to Mills, his customers are major corporations who will have to >make major investments to develop either the energy or chemical >technologies. Mills thinks so, but I disagree. His technology can be built on any scale, and the materials are not toxic. Therefore, his potential customers are anyone from a guy puttering in his garage to General Motors. And he should sell to any one of the. The first rule of business is never turn down money. The customer is God, and whatever he wants, in whatever quantity or condition he wants it, you sell to him. When corporations developed the early microprocessors and floppy disks, they thought their customers would be the estabished mini and mainframe computer companies, and they wasted a good deal of time trying to sell to and through these established channels. It turned the best channels for selling microprocessors was through two-bit start-up garage operations like IMSAI and Apple Computer. Therefore, he has to look like a neck-on-the-block startup >with suit and tie and facilities in a prestigious area (near Princeton NJ). >He has made all the right moves according to this model. Yes. I know. It is the wrong model, as shown by the history of small-scale disruptive technology. You never start out on the inside track with the big companies. After several dozen wildly succesful start-up companies sell Mills generators or hydrino superchemicals, then the Big Guys will come to the door. (After Apple showed the way, IBM jumped into the microcomputer business.) But the big companies never risk going into small markets with radical innovations. If Mills' technology could only be used on a large scale, like fission or an integrated steel mill, then he would be forced to deal with the big companies and his strategy would be exactly right. I am not the only one who says this, by the way. My opinions and examples come straight of conventional textbook from places like the Harvard Business School. I favor innovation and radical new thinking, but I myself am a stick-in-the-mud conventionalist, alas. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 08:22:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15220; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:20:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:20:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318110637.007a8420 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:06:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Correa (Jed) In-Reply-To: <004201bf90dd$d050ed80$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> References: <3.0.6.32.20000317170726.00790d50 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zZiAc1.0.fj3.Qpwqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike C wrote: >Jed, just where did he say he believes "all these wild, unreplicated claims >by people like Newman, Moray and Tewari"? You put words in his mouth. It may not be in the text, but I distinctly remember he listed them, perhaps in a viewgraph or a list he showed me later. I will review my notes and the transcript to pin this down. I distinctly remember Newman. There are hundreds more like that, and he may not have listed Moray, which is why I said "like Newman . . ." I do not intend this as a blanket condemnation of Newman, Moray or Tewari. If Correa says "we should remain open minded and investigate these claims" I agree. I doubt there is anything to these claims, but people I respect feel there may be. But, when someone assert that Newman et al. are DEFINITELY real, and they are being suppressed, they cross the line. The mainstream rejects these people, but the fringe forums and publications given them money, respect, and many opportunities to communicate with the public and demonstrate their claims. They could get patents practically for the asking, as long as they do not mention o-u energy. Some cold fusion scientists are suppressed, but that is because they are middle-class, mainstream scientists working in universities and national labs. You can ostracize Bockris or Miles -- they had something to lose -- but you cannot ostracize Newman. He started out in exile. >> Real scientists don't just brag about success, they also admit >> failure. > >Which Fleischmann did in an off-the-record private conversation. Not really. He talked freely about his own mistakes at ICCF, during the poster sessions for example. He will tell anyone who cares to listen, but as he says, people don't listen. The audiotape sessions I have are at his house because it is quieter than the ICCF halls, but the gist of the discussion was the same. Exactly the same at first: an in-depth tutorial on his ICCF poster. I have discussed in bits and pieces in various articles, but I am trying to persuade Martin to let me organize the whole and publish it, in the magazine and/or web page. In my experience, the level of professional honesty and depth you get with someone like Tom Passell, McKubre, Fleischmann, Bockris, Takahashi or Mizuno -- or Scott Little! -- does not compare to the evasions and double talk from fringe people like Mills and Correa. Real, professional scientists may not have the spark of genius. The fringe people may hold the vital, crucial answers. But it is easier to work with the professionals, and to know what they have and do not have. There are plenty of scientists with mainstream credentials but fringe minds. Mills is a consummate professional compared to Morrison, Park or Blue. The hot fusion program is Fringe Science Writ Large. >Fleischmann >had the support of the Toyoda family in his very own, built-for-him lab in >France, but was unable to turn around the Japanese NHE enterprise. And you >dump on Correa for commercial "failure", with Mills hopefully next in line? That isn't fair to Martin. The NHE never responded to his letters. They froze him out, because of politics and business strategy. (They wanted to reinvent independently, without help from J-M or others with knowledge of the problem.) They froze out Mizuno, Storms and everyone else with knowledge of the field until the last year, when they became desperate. By the time they opened up it was too late. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 09:40:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02503; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:37:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:37:20 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000318102210.0079b210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Re: Running with K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA02472 Resent-Message-ID: <"mdmN-.0.1d.Fxxqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, This is all idle speculation on your part. Without knowing the filing date of Mills patent(s) and a careful reading of the claims granted it is impossible to know if Vinces work has any bearing at all. I suspect that Mills has years of lab notes etc. to w hich none of us are privy and that he had it all pretty well covered before disclosing info. on his website. Also, as Mike Carrell and others have ably pointed out patent litigation is extremely expensive. In any case, I would respectfully suggest that you study the US patent rules (CFR Vol. #37) before making more misleading comments. Thanks, Ron On 18-Mar-00, Jed Rothwell wrote: > JR> Even if your experiments were purely scientific, they are a matter of JR> public record here in Vortex. You may have priority. Someone else (perhaps JR> a large corporation) might be able to cite them to invalidate the Mills JR> patent. Perhaps not the entire patent, but the glow discharge portions JR> might be vulnerable. JR> JR> - Jed VC> VCockeram aol.com wrote: VCR> VC>> Hmm, interesting thought Jed, however I started this out of pure VC>> curiosity and if I should be standing in line for a then (1998) remote VC>> possibility of an IPO. I never wanted to make any money off of this VC>> as a marketable "device", just wanted to make an investment decision. -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 09:43:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03955; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:41:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:41:50 -0800 Message-ID: <003201bf9165$ca110260$6e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Tewari (was : Correa) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:53:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"tV7fj2.0.Tz.U_xqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jean-Pierre, Unfortunately, once you remove the loaded words, like "henchman" for "associate", there is not much there. Neither his own testing procedure or that of Mr. Tewari's is described in the letter so it is impossible to evaluate it. I have just written to Mr. Kamath asking him for this information. On the other hand, the similar De Palma machine is known not to be OU, and the stated efficiency of 27 percent is in line with what I would expect for a homemade homopolar generator. On the other other hand, Toby Grotz has recently written me that the Tewari machine is very different from the De Palma machine and that he has personally tested it as overunity. I guess it has to remain in the "unknown" category for now. Fred > >Fred Epps wrote : >> Tewari --seems to have good results. >> Didn't the Indian government test the Tewari generator? >> As well as Toby Grotz? > >Uh oh. You might check : >http://www.phact.org/e/z/tewari.htm > >Now, I'm not endorsing everything on Eric Krieg's free-energy-skeptic site, >but sometimes skeptic literature is a good source of information too... In >this case, the report written by an Indian engineer about his encounters >with Tewari, though flawed with usual skeptic anathema about "violations of >thermodynamic laws", does seems to indicate, if you read between the lines, >that Mr Tewari is a, let's say, "Newmanesque" con-man character... >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jean-Pierre Lentin >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 09:44:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03992; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:41:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:41:52 -0800 Message-ID: <003301bf9165$cae394a0$6e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Correa (Fred) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:01:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"WCrWk2.0.3-.V_xqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, > >> I am glad that Jeff Fink >> >enjoyed the replication and he does not hold it against us. (Assuming he >> >learned about from us.) Something that was "great fun, very dangerous, >and >> >a terrific light show" can't be all bad. >> >> The question is whether he actually DID a replication, or just a similar >> experiment. I guess I will hear back from him on that. > >No disrespect to Jeff, he put in a lot of hard work and spent good money. He >considered that he had an improvement in mechanical construction which >indeed was much more rugged than the rather fragile reactor tubes which >Alexandra Correa made. When I visited him, I gently pointed out some >significant differences between what he was doing and what I knew of >Correa's approach. He replied in effect that he was doing his own thing. He more or less states as such in the letters written at the time.. I am very interested in hearing Jeff's views of this affair. > >Marett also thought he was replicating, but his tubes failed early because >of sputtering, while Correas do not (I believe). If sputtering causes problems then it is hard to imagine how Correa's tubes would be immune from it. > Apparently both Marrett and Correa have strong and articulate advocates, so I would be crushed by these mighty elephants if I was to step between :-) If Doug has indeed replicated the OU effect in his tubes even for a few minutes then this is a very important corroboration of Correa's claims. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 09:45:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04097; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:42:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:42:13 -0800 Message-ID: <003401bf9165$cbe6fae0$6e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Correa (Fred) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:40:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"i9dFd2.0.x_.r_xqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, >> >> Is it possible to say whether they are still attempting to commercialize >it >> in some way? > >I haven't been in touch for several months. At that time there was one more >interested party they were going to talk to. They were also contemplating >moving from the Toronto area to the Caribbean and proceeding to develop the >technology on a small scale with the help of a few friends. That sounds like a viable approach, and you get some sun too :-) The PAGD is only >the tip of an iceberg. To get PAGD into commercial form as an energy package >one could sell in Rothwellian style is a $10 million + investment. Most of >the people who have approached the Correas had some very questionable >agendas. His speech at the Manchester symposium, which Jed heard as a rant, >was in response to years of effort and dances with jackals. Yes, I am familiar with the history of at least one of the jackals in question. As an outburst of frustration his recorded responses seem more reasonable. > >The patents are your best source, plus the bibliography. I am steadily acquiring that. The bibliography in the Ken Shoulder's patents has also been most helpful. There is a patent literature that is not quoted in the Correa's patents that is useful as well. The patents are >dense technical papers, worthy of a major thesis. I've read them, and understand them for the most part. Nothing too tough, if you break it up into bits and read the references. That doesn't mean I would be able to replicate their work. Obviously they have many years of experience in practical vacuum technology and plasma. The other place to go is >Harold Aspden's website and a deep study of his aether physics. His paper on a new law of electrodynamics is very interesting, but personally I'm not sure if the introduction of charge/mass ratio into the standard equation is sufficient to explain the Correa results, not to mention those of Rayleigh, Chukanov, or Karabut. In the case >of the PAGD reactors, pay attention to the incipient glow conditions, which >do not occur according to classical theory. Right. There is a field emission glow >that occurs before the discharge collapses into a vortex and the energy >comes out. Yes I noted the studies they had done on the condition of their electrodes. It is very similar to the vortical plasmoid marks reported in Matsumoto and reported by Lewis. What I glean from all this is that in the conditions plasmas some >very, very interesting things can happen, including the release of energy. >There are some reports that this release can be violent. Like in some reports of ball lightning. Or the recent reports of intense electron bursts from inert gas clusters hit by femtosecond laser beams. I point out these parallels to note that the Correa's work doesn't stand in a vacuum (pun intended :-) There is a long and large history of arc, spark, and glow anomalies, best typified by the ball lightning literature. Just yesterday I found a patent from Japan from 1983 claiming OU from a glow discharge. The list goes on. >On >> the other hand, how inventors present themselves or act has nothing to do >> with whether their ideas work, and that is all I really care about here. > >How inventors present themselves has a great deal to do with commercial >success. And Correa's personality does not fit a commercial mold. Mills is >better at presenting a corporate face. That may well be. >> >> I can say that >> >it should be possible to make PAGD reactors that will work in the test >> >circuit, but they won't work very long before operation causes the >critical >> >conditions to change and the energy yield will disappear, leaving a light >> >show. >> >> Yes, I understand the cathode erosion is a major problem in maintaining >> performance. Are there other major problems? > >Yes, but I can't go further without violating my nondisclosure agreement. OK. >There is an obvious external problem, visible in the patents. It is the >pulse nature of the discharge. You get very strong pulses if the system is >set for a pulse very second or so, and much weaker pulses if the PAGD fires >rapidly. Tables in the patents show that the energy gain may be less than >ten under rapid fire conditions. Right. The discharge can't be triggered to >stabilize the frequency without losing the energy gain. However, in one of their articles in Infinite Energy, and on their website, they point out that they have achieved the OU effects in vacuum arc discharges as well as in the abnormal glow regime, and that there are certain advantages to using VAD, namely that the current limitation of the glow is removed, and that the frequency can be wholly determined by the supply. The input current can be pulsed, in other words. Then a whole range of pulsed power technology can come into play. Of course there is a greater cathode erosion problem with VAD, but this might be overcome with the use of wetted electrodes or something. Have they pursued this direction at all? Thus you have a >problem interfacing it with the external world, and with making a >self-sustaining system without a mountain of batteries. Yes, and the presence of batteries is a red flag to skeptical engineers and scientists, as well as being cumbersome. I have given thought >to some electromagnetic transducers which might function as interfaces to >the outside world. If Correa ever got substantial funding, some of my >notions might be useful. That's cool. >> >> >> There is a significant R&D effort necessary to go from the effect to a >> >commercially usable system. It is not as simple as it appears, and has >> >nothing to do with the structural fragility of the reactors which have >been >> >pictured. >> >> Yes, I can see that. For myself I am trying to establish whether the >effect >> is based on the gas/metal boundary, or whether it is strictly a gas ion >> effect. If it is a gas effect, the abnormal glow could be created with an >> induction coil or electrostatic means. > >Be clear about this: Correa's PAGD shows significant bursts of energy coming >out of nowhere by a mechanism few people grasp at all. There is "new" >physics here, although people have been seeing strange things in plasmas for >decades. It appears to be a continuum to me. The "new" physics must have been operant in these early effects, and a study of them might lead to better means of getting the energy out. And nobody (not "few people") grasps where the energy comes from. I won't pretend to have any glib explanation for it. Thank you :-) Study of it >led Correa to discover new depths to physics in unpublished work that is as >extensive as Mills'. If any of that work is available I would like to read it. Correa thinks Mills has it wrong, by the way. Correa >respects Aspden, and Aspden has written an essay about aether interactions >in the PAGD. Yes, I've read that. Aside from his electrodynamics law, Aspden's thinking seems a bit tenous to me, though I respect the overall effort he puts in. > >> > >> >As to why the necessary connections and sponsorship have not occurred, I >> see >> >no merit in discussing it in this forum. >> >> No problem with me. I was basically summarizing the statements on Vortex >so >> far, and wondering whether there has been further work in this area. I >> didn't mean to come off sounding so negative about the Correas. I'm >neutral >> on that. I admit the statements on the list have colored my viewpoint. > >Naturally. And I have tried to correct misperceptions as they arose. Some of >the comments have been about his 'business' practices; Jed, for example. >There have been glib remarks by people who did not actually study the Correa >material as thoroughly as I did. I approached Correa as a student wanting to >learn, and found him receptive. We became friends. He isn't perfect, but I >will continue to defend his position against people who attack it without >understanding it. He seems to inspire strong feelings in everybody in one direction or the other. Charismatic people often do. >> >> That would be too bad. Thanks again, Mike. > >You are most welcome. I have hoped that funding would become available to >sponsor the work that Paulo wants to do in the ethical environment he wants. >It hasn't happened yet. At least he is continuing to work and has not given up his research. I do feel that he is doing important stuff. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 09:48:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07400; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:47:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:47:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:45:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"USHou1.0.Wp1.45yqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I mention that Mills has reincorporated and moved his company several >times. Apparently Mitchell Jones took that to mean I think Mills is being >chased by the police! ***{Nope. I said nothing about what you believe. My statement was concerned with the impression you were leaving in the minds of others. In my view, your remark was just another example of the way you smuggle defamatory connotations into comments about people you do not like, while stopping short of hurling specific charges that might be actionable. I never thought for a second that you actually believed Miles is being chased by the police, any more than I ever thought you actually believed he is insane, or a liar, or an incompetent businessman. What I believe is that you have an intense dislike for him, and that as a consequence you have tended to go out of your way to make him look bad. --MJ}*** Jones made some kind inflammatory remarks accusing me >of that. > >What I meant would be self-evident to an investor. Frequent changes, >reincorporation, relocations are a sign of instability. ***{Your original statement, to which I responded, said nothing about frequent reincorporations or about change in general. You refered very specifically to name and address changes, nothing more. Here are your exact words: I have not changed >the name & address of my company every couple of years. It was to the above statement that I responded, and there was no implication that I would have responded the same way if you had said something different. As I noted, the statement which you actually made would evoke, in the subconscious minds of many readers, images of a disreputable individuals who manage, by frequent changes of address, to stay just out of reach of the police. It was just another example of the process of artful insinuation, by means of which journalists smuggle opinions into the minds of their readers. The advantage of the technique is simple: by saying something hurtful without actually saying it, you establish plausible deniability. If the unvoiced implication is challenged, you can simply deny it is what you meant, as you have done here. --Mitchell Jones}*** Management is not >planning ahead properly. It is paying too much to lawyers and moving >companies. When a small company is growing rapidly and hiring new people, >it may have to move to larger quarters, but this company has had no revenue >for eight years. A potential investor will want to know why it has >reincorporated. It could mean that stock is being diluted, or changing >hands too frequently, or the Board of Directors is changing because of >disagreements. It usually means trouble. ***{This is utter nonsense. Address changes require other information in order to be interpreted. Depending on that other information, they could reflect rapid growth, rapid retrenchment, a phased reorganization within the company, or something else. Since the "other information"--for example, quarterly financial reports--is already required reading by any competent would-be investor, a focus on "address changes" is obviously superfluous. That is undoubtedly why no text on investing that I have ever seen has said even a single word about the use of "address changes" as an analytical tool, and none of the myriad investment advisory services to which I have subscribed in the 36 years that I have been trading stock have mentioned it either. (Since you claim it is such an important tool, you should be able to cite some author who has discussed its use. Can you?) --MJ}*** > >Jones' lurid ideas belong back in 1925. Nowadays, with telecommunications >and Internet, you cannot escape from the police or disgruntled investors by >moving across the state line. ***{If the police knock on your door, and you have already moved somewhere else, they cannot arrest you at that time. That is a fact. It is, of course, irrelevant to the point--which is that you can smuggle unseemly imagery into the subconscious minds of readers by making dark allusions to an individual's "frequent changes of address," as you did. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 10:47:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23218; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:45:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:45:37 -0800 Message-ID: <002801bf910a$7124c980$5258ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <380138344.953392709370.JavaMail.root web34.pub01> Subject: Re: Business Models Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:47:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Wln2C2.0.eg5.Gxyqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark. good to hear from you: > Mike, > > I much appreciate your post. I am glad to learn of so many positive > contributions by RCA. I had a wonderful time, which gets better in the soft glow of nostalgia. > > My own experience was with the dark side of the RCA Corporation. I was an > Executive Trainee at Ampex in 1953. RCA reverse engineered our Model 2000, > which built the company. It was used by virtually every network and > recording studio and sold in those days for $3,000. RCA produced the > identical machine, in spite of Ampex patents, with only the nameplate > changed. They apparently assumed a small firm would never be able to mount > an effective court challenge. As it happened Bing Crosby's money was behind > Ampex and RCA lost in court. I remember being told once that it was only > the second time they lost a patent case. RCA never again built a tape > recorder that looked anything like an Ampex machine. Sarnoff could be a hard competitor and RCA may well have had a dark side with respect to Armstrong and Farnsworth, but there too are other sides to the story. I had the comfortable feeling of working for a basically ethical company, although there was a bit of chicanery in spots. Nobody went to jail for juggling time cards, as happened at one of GE's facilities. My first major assignment was in broadcast microphones, which segued into the AIC-10 project to build high intelligibility intercoms for the Air Force manned bombers. RCA was not competitive in manufacture, and eventually we (the transducer group) got out of that business and segued into magnetic recording, using expertise developed by Rex Isom's group in the Advanced Technology Labs. The big break was a contract to put a video recorder capable of continuous timebase recording into a satellite package for purposes that are classified but obvious. I watched a small group blossom into a crew of 60 senior engineers in a matter of weeks. That facility still exists in another corporate shell, but tape machines are passe now. The Ampex copy may have been done in the Broadcast group, which developed tape machines for the broadcast industry. Ampex's transverse scan video tape recorder caught RCA by surprise; Isom's group was pursuing multichannel linear recording at the time. A frantic search of engineering notebooks found a sketch of the transverse scan idea, but no patent disclosure was filed and it was not pursued. My understanding was that RCA developed the circuitry to put the color signal on the tape, which was traded for a cross-license with Ampex to use the transverse scan patents. It happens that Ray Warren has become a good friend of mine; we have lunch weekly. He was one of Isom's protoges and has the patents on the technology for putting the color and stereo hifi signals on VHS tape. Those earned RCA some $40 million in royalties. > > This illustrates a very difficult problem faced by small, often > undercapitalized, high tech firms. One patent is usually not enough to > survive a serious predatory challenge by a large firm which often will make > a conscious decision to ignore patents. A good example was the Fonar battle > with GE. Fonar owns the two fundamental patents on the MRI. GE ignored > them. Fonar, unlike most small companies in their position, was able to > find an able patent litigator whose firm took the case on contingency. GE > was forced by the court to wire transfer more than $128 million to Fonar > after losing a battle strung out over many years. That victory is a rare > exception to the rule. Other battles raged over coaxial cable, a traditional inspiration by someone who needed to shield the ignition wires of his car to reduce radio interference. It was attacked as "obvious" -- after it was invented. I was told that the only company that followed the Armstrong FM patents in TVs was Zenith, and it cost them dearly in dealing with Armstrong. RCA's invention of the FM ratio detector walked around Armstrong's patents because Armstrong based his claims on the sequence of limit-discriminate and did not foresee another, simpler approach. > > Intellectual Property law reflects a serious structural problem. Defense of > a major technology breakthrough can easily require $50 million to $100 > million in legal fees and costs. Very easily. RCA viewed patents as an asset and encouraged disclosures and paid a modest stipend on filing. I have some 20 patents, which I must categorize as 'vanity' patents of no commercial merit. Lemelson was a one man patent factory. A clever, ingenious person, he knew the patent law and wrote his own patents and made his own drawings. He had about 500, third place after Edison and Land. He worked with a predatory law firm on commission to go after large companies, playing "gotcha". He took Mattel for $70 million (initial award) for a toy with car track with an overhead loop. separately devised by a Mattel engineer. I understand his holdings in the stacker crane business were extensive. I got involved when he claimed to have invented inspection by machine vision in 1952, then delayed issuance of the patent until the 70's while he updated his claims as the industry evolved. I was retained by a law firm to critique the patent as the modern attorneys had no idea of what was going on in the 50s. He was using a multichannel wideband recorder both to record the signal from a TV camera looking at a reference part, and as a crude serial computer to compare the recorded image with an image of a test part. It would have taken the full resources of RCA's Advanced Technology Labs to make anything workable of it. I found some other technology, current at the time, which undercut Lemelson's claims. The law firm was going after the major automobile companies who used machine vision, rather than the actual vendors, who did not have the deep pockets. I felt that Lemelson was not entitled to a patent in that area as the scheme he taught was unworkable and his strategy simply predatory. I believe some Japanese automobile companies paid up, rather than face a poor lonesome inventor (ha!) on his own turf. Lemelson's estate topped $500 million and he lived in Aspen. > > The inventor of the water-bed lives in this area and successfully solved the > cost problem by having a law-firm sell participations in the lawsuit. They > finally won - and all the lawsuit investors received a part of the proceeds. > > Jed's often perceptive comments fall far short in this area of business. > Success seems to require strategy and tactics typical of a military campaign > - especially where a reliable product generating profitable cash flow takes > years of R&D and very deep pockets. They certainly do. Glad you agree. Jed's a good man, perceptive in many ways. We have argued for years over strategies. You might be interested to know that I am now the third member of the board of directors of Cold Fusion Technology, along with Gene and Jed. I counterbalance Jed. I also wear a hat as a consultant to CFT, offering advice and occasional book reviews. > > The ceramic superconductors were the fallout of work at IBM Zurich announced > in 1986 that won a nobel prize for Muller & Bednorz. For the first time > last year five small companies began selling the first products, all either > subsidized or sold below cost. The companies that went public have only > seen any real interest in their stock in the last two months. One of these > firms, American Superconductor, has done several public offerings and was > launched with $80 million in cash infusions by the Venture Capital > community. Their most recent offering was sold in less that a week early > this month and brought in $205 million net. They have more than 100 > patents. They have excellent PR and make ceramic wire that is 60% silver in > order to gain flexibility. To carry much current it was discovered that the > temperature had to be closer to that of liquid helium than liquid nitrogen. > Huge government support has been available to the ceramic superconductor > work both here and in Japan - and still profitability remains a hope and a > promise. > > But then, some of us continue to defy the odds... RCA's contribution to superconductivity was a process for making (I believe) niobium-tin wire, which is a superconductor at rather low temperatures. RCA was focused on consumer electronics and the defense business, and saw no commercial path. RCA Labs developed the first color video game chip, but the consumer electronics department diddled in indecision until after others were out of the gate and running and RCA never caught up. Same with transistors, the company hung onto vacuum tubes too long, thinking RCA could catch up if there were anything to it. The 10% solar cell foundered because RCA sought a partner to put up all the money and RCA put up the technology for 51% of the venture. No buyers. No future was seen for liquid crystal displays, so the technology was sold to Timex for watches. This was while the Sarnoff center had decades-long projects to develop mural TV, including plasma displays. One could cry in one's beer over squandered opportunities. When you spoke at Manchester, you were very optimistic about the room temperature superconductor developments. Is there reason for near optimism, or is it elusive, like the manufacture of reliable CF cathodes? Mike From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 11:52:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04681; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:49:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:49:01 -0800 Message-ID: <383184072.953408903195.JavaMail.root web20.pub01> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:48:23 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Business Models Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.194 Resent-Message-ID: <"RBKqP3.0.391.iszqu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, I enjoyed your reply. However, I was not at Manchester. We have had room temperature superconductivity since 1993. Our landmark patent is 5,777,292. Commercialization is now under way. I've mentioned our work once before on vortex but ask that it remain confidential for now. We have several more patents in the pipeline that we would like to file before surfacing. Keeping below the radar is easy at the moment since these are polymer materials and most scientists cannot believe amorphous polymers can superconduct at ambient temperatures. We call them Ultraconductors(tm)to avoid arguments with physicists. We've completed four DOD contracts and recently closed our three floors of laboratories in Moscow, Russia. Airlifted 26 crates of equipment and moved the key scientists to California. The work began in Moscow in 1981. It was independently reproduced in St. Petersburg and one of that group moved to Israel where magnetic tests were done to 9 Tesla. Current density is higher than any known superconductor. Usable temperature is from 1 Kelvin to 200C (390F). The polymers are still superconducting when they disintegrate, some at temperatures of 700 K (800F). I did speak about this work in Bethesda at the COFE after all the media folks agreed it was "off the record". We are just closing an Offering for Accredited Investors this coming week. Mark ------Original Message------ From: "Mike C" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: March 18, 2000 6:47:08 PM GMT Subject: Re: Business Models Mark. good to hear from you: > Mike, > > I much appreciate your post. I am glad to learn of so many positive > contributions by RCA. I had a wonderful time, which gets better in the soft glow of nostalgia. > > My own experience was with the dark side of the RCA Corporation. I was an > Executive Trainee at Ampex in 1953. RCA reverse engineered our Model 2000, > which built the company. It was used by virtually every network and > recording studio and sold in those days for $3,000. RCA produced the > identical machine, in spite of Ampex patents, with only the nameplate > changed. They apparently assumed a small firm would never be able to mount > an effective court challenge. As it happened Bing Crosby's money was behind > Ampex and RCA lost in court. I remember being told once that it was only > the second time they lost a patent case. RCA never again built a tape > recorder that looked anything like an Ampex machine. Sarnoff could be a hard competitor and RCA may well have had a dark side with respect to Armstrong and Farnsworth, but there too are other sides to the story. I had the comfortable feeling of working for a basically ethical company, although there was a bit of chicanery in spots. Nobody went to jail for juggling time cards, as happened at one of GE's facilities. My first major assignment was in broadcast microphones, which segued into the AIC-10 project to build high intelligibility intercoms for the Air Force manned bombers. RCA was not competitive in manufacture, and eventually we (the transducer group) got out of that business and segued into magnetic recording, using expertise developed by Rex Isom's group in the Advanced Technology Labs. The big break was a contract to put a video recorder capable of continuous timebase recording into a satellite package for purposes that are classified but obvious. I watched a small group blossom into a crew of 60 senior engineers in a matter of weeks. That facility still exists in another corporate shell, but tape machines are passe now. The Ampex copy may have been done in the Broadcast group, which developed tape machines for the broadcast industry. Ampex's transverse scan video tape recorder caught RCA by surprise; Isom's group was pursuing multichannel linear recording at the time. A frantic search of engineering notebooks found a sketch of the transverse scan idea, but no patent disclosure was filed and it was not pursued. My understanding was that RCA developed the circuitry to put the color signal on the tape, which was traded for a cross-license with Ampex to use the transverse scan patents. It happens that Ray Warren has become a good friend of mine; we have lunch weekly. He was one of Isom's protoges and has the patents on the technology for putting the color and stereo hifi signals on VHS tape. Those earned RCA some $40 million in royalties. > > This illustrates a very difficult problem faced by small, often > undercapitalized, high tech firms. One patent is usually not enough to > survive a serious predatory challenge by a large firm which often will make > a conscious decision to ignore patents. A good example was the Fonar battle > with GE. Fonar owns the two fundamental patents on the MRI. GE ignored > them. Fonar, unlike most small companies in their position, was able to > find an able patent litigator whose firm took the case on contingency. GE > was forced by the court to wire transfer more than $128 million to Fonar > after losing a battle strung out over many years. That victory is a rare > exception to the rule. Other battles raged over coaxial cable, a traditional inspiration by someone who needed to shield the ignition wires of his car to reduce radio interference. It was attacked as "obvious" -- after it was invented. I was told that the only company that followed the Armstrong FM patents in TVs was Zenith, and it cost them dearly in dealing with Armstrong. RCA's invention of the FM ratio detector walked around Armstrong's patents because Armstrong based his claims on the sequence of limit-discriminate and did not foresee another, simpler approach. > > Intellectual Property law reflects a serious structural problem. Defense of > a major technology breakthrough can easily require $50 million to $100 > million in legal fees and costs. Very easily. RCA viewed patents as an asset and encouraged disclosures and paid a modest stipend on filing. I have some 20 patents, which I must categorize as 'vanity' patents of no commercial merit. Lemelson was a one man patent factory. A clever, ingenious person, he knew the patent law and wrote his own patents and made his own drawings. He had about 500, third place after Edison and Land. He worked with a predatory law firm on commission to go after large companies, playing "gotcha". He took Mattel for $70 million (initial award) for a toy with car track with an overhead loop. separately devised by a Mattel engineer. I understand his holdings in the stacker crane business were extensive. I got involved when he claimed to have invented inspection by machine vision in 1952, then delayed issuance of the patent until the 70's while he updated his claims as the industry evolved. I was retained by a law firm to critique the patent as the modern attorneys had no idea of what was going on in the 50s. He was using a multichannel wideband recorder both to record the signal from a TV camera looking at a reference part, and as a crude serial computer to compare the recorded image with an image of a test part. It would have taken the full resources of RCA's Advanced Technology Labs to make anything workable of it. I found some other technology, current at the time, which undercut Lemelson's claims. The law firm was going after the major automobile companies who used machine vision, rather than the actual vendors, who did not have the deep pockets. I felt that Lemelson was not entitled to a patent in that area as the scheme he taught was unworkable and his strategy simply predatory. I believe some Japanese automobile companies paid up, rather than face a poor lonesome inventor (ha!) on his own turf. Lemelson's estate topped $500 million and he lived in Aspen. > > The inventor of the water-bed lives in this area and successfully solved the > cost problem by having a law-firm sell participations in the lawsuit. They > finally won - and all the lawsuit investors received a part of the proceeds. > > Jed's often perceptive comments fall far short in this area of business. > Success seems to require strategy and tactics typical of a military campaign > - especially where a reliable product generating profitable cash flow takes > years of R&D and very deep pockets. They certainly do. Glad you agree. Jed's a good man, perceptive in many ways. We have argued for years over strategies. You might be interested to know that I am now the third member of the board of directors of Cold Fusion Technology, along with Gene and Jed. I counterbalance Jed. I also wear a hat as a consultant to CFT, offering advice and occasional book reviews. > > The ceramic superconductors were the fallout of work at IBM Zurich announced > in 1986 that won a nobel prize for Muller & Bednorz. For the first time > last year five small companies began selling the first products, all either > subsidized or sold below cost. The companies that went public have only > seen any real interest in their stock in the last two months. One of these > firms, American Superconductor, has done several public offerings and was > launched with $80 million in cash infusions by the Venture Capital > community. Their most recent offering was sold in less that a week early > this month and brought in $205 million net. They have more than 100 > patents. They have excellent PR and make ceramic wire that is 60% silver in > order to gain flexibility. To carry much current it was discovered that the > temperature had to be closer to that of liquid helium than liquid nitrogen. > Huge government support has been available to the ceramic superconductor > work both here and in Japan - and still profitability remains a hope and a > promise. > > But then, some of us continue to defy the odds... RCA's contribution to superconductivity was a process for making (I believe) niobium-tin wire, which is a superconductor at rather low temperatures. RCA was focused on consumer electronics and the defense business, and saw no commercial path. RCA Labs developed the first color video game chip, but the consumer electronics department diddled in indecision until after others were out of the gate and running and RCA never caught up. Same with transistors, the company hung onto vacuum tubes too long, thinking RCA could catch up if there were anything to it. The 10% solar cell foundered because RCA sought a partner to put up all the money and RCA put up the technology for 51% of the venture. No buyers. No future was seen for liquid crystal displays, so the technology was sold to Timex for watches. This was while the Sarnoff center had decades-long projects to develop mural TV, including plasma displays. One could cry in one's beer over squandered opportunities. When you spoke at Manchester, you were very optimistic about the room temperature superconductor developments. Is there reason for near optimism, or is it elusive, like the manufacture of reliable CF cathodes? Mike ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 13:07:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26368; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:03:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:03:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000318160756.006ca610 postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:07:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Re: Correa In-Reply-To: <029201bf90da$49a9d380$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xhv-E3.0.mR6.-y-qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:58 AM 3/18/00 -0800, you wrote: > >The question is whether he actually DID a replication, or just a similar >experiment. I guess I will hear back from him on that. > >Fred I never attempted to replicate the experiment. I only attempted to replicate the results with what I judged to be simpler, more rugged and more economical apparatus. Replicating the Correa experiment was financially out of the question. Additionally, if PAGD energy machines are ever to be practical they would of necessity bear a closer resemblence to my stuff. My work was an end run around the Correas, and I recognized the likelyhood of failure. The excess energy claim for PAGD is so misunderstood by all of us that to this day I doubt that there is a consensus on whether the excess energy is a forward or reverse electric pulse. I looked for both but was inclined to think it was a reverse pulse due to the layout of their circuit. I tried to divert the incipient energy pulse to a load bank with a FET switching circuit without success. I used various combinations capacitors, transformers, and inductors to coerce the anomalous energy into existance to no avail. Capacitors across the tubes allowed the energy levels of the discharges to get very high. At one point I started watching the tube through a video monitor out of concern for my vision. The large volume of my tubes along with the large horizontal flat surface of the cathode allowed for the placement of various objects on the cathode to see the effects. Some were very interesting like a biscuit of heavy duty steel wool. I also placed a variety of helical springs on the cathode standing on end. A luminous jet would form between the coils of some. These jets would shift their position suddenly from one coil to another as a function of minor changes in gas pressure. Regarding gas pressure, the visual phenomena was more pronounced at higher pressures. Rarified argon also works better than rarified air. Krypton or Xenon would surely be exciting to see. The large geometry of my tube allowed me to see a haze line that formed above the cathode. The elevation of the line varied with gas pressure from near zero at threshold pressure to 1.5 inches at the limits of my vacuum pump. The Correas may have never seen this because of the smaller dimensions of their tubes. The reason I went bigger than anything they published was because they said bigger was better and bigger was easy for me to do. If you have anyother questions let me know. Jeff Fink From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 13:22:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30640; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:20:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:20:57 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:26:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Tewari Generator ?? Correa In-Reply-To: <036601bf90fb$d20fb8e0$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Y0LxK2.0.gU7.vC_qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, What is a Tewari Generator, writtien about below, see flag On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Fred Epps wrote: > Hi Jed and all, > > > >>BTW, I don't believe that Correa is a fraud, because frauds are smooth, > >>convincing, and tell what you want to hear. > > > >Correa seemed sincere to me. Not a bit like a fraud. He seems terribly > >gullible, because he believes all these wild, unreplicated claims made by > >people like Newman, Moray and Tewari. > > Newman-- not worth bothering with. > Moray-- unreplicatable, but not wild. > ________________ Flag ___________ Tewari --seems to have good results. #### WHAT? > Didn't the Indian government test the Tewari generator? As well as Toby > Grotz? ###### T. Grotz ?? What ?? ##### > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 13:27:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA32091; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:26:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:26:46 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:31:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jean-Pierre Lentin cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tewari (was : Correa) In-Reply-To: <200003181150.MAA05117 front1.grolier.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"rFFkK2.0.Lr7.MI_qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can someone please give the half-a-dollar description of the Tewari Generator? AND: Is Toby Grotz a tester? Does he have a generator? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 13:34:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02278; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:32:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:32:30 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:37:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnacord RE: Business Models In-Reply-To: <380138344.953392709370.JavaMail.root web34.pub01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"x7pzv3.0.WZ.kN_qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Mark G., I have a little piece of your history.... one of the Studio Magnacord tape recorders.... that about ..1952- 53 or maybe a little earlier started to have the Ampex name ... Let me know if the history is wrong... On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Mark Goldes wrote: > Mike, > > I much appreciate your post. I am glad to learn of so many positive > contributions by RCA. > > My own experience was with the dark side of the RCA Corporation. I was an > Executive Trainee at Ampex in 1953. RCA reverse engineered our Model 2000, > which built the company. It was used by virtually every network and > recording studio and sold in those days for $3,000. RCA produced the > identical machine, in spite of Ampex patents, with only the nameplate > changed. They apparently assumed a small firm would never be able to mount > an effective court challenge. As it happened Bing Crosby's money was behind > Ampex and RCA lost in court. I remember being told once that it was only > the second time they lost a patent case. RCA never again built a tape > recorder that looked anything like an Ampex machine. > > This illustrates a very difficult problem faced by small, often > undercapitalized, high tech firms. One patent is usually not enough to > survive a serious predatory challenge by a large firm which often will make > a conscious decision to ignore patents. A good example was the Fonar battle > with GE. Fonar owns the two fundamental patents on the MRI. GE ignored > them. Fonar, unlike most small companies in their position, was able to > find an able patent litigator whose firm took the case on contingency. GE > was forced by the court to wire transfer more than $128 million to Fonar > after losing a battle strung out over many years. That victory is a rare > exception to the rule. > > Intellectual Property law reflects a serious structural problem. Defense of > a major technology breakthrough can easily require $50 million to $100 > million in legal fees and costs. > > The inventor of the water-bed lives in this area and successfully solved the > cost problem by having a law-firm sell participations in the lawsuit. They > finally won - and all the lawsuit investors received a part of the proceeds. > > Jed's often perceptive comments fall far short in this area of business. > Success seems to require strategy and tactics typical of a military campaign > - especially where a reliable product generating profitable cash flow takes > years of R&D and very deep pockets. > > The ceramic superconductors were the fallout of work at IBM Zurich announced > in 1986 that won a nobel prize for Muller & Bednorz. For the first time > last year five small companies began selling the first products, all either > subsidized or sold below cost. The companies that went public have only > seen any real interest in their stock in the last two months. One of these > firms, American Superconductor, has done several public offerings and was > launched with $80 million in cash infusions by the Venture Capital > community. Their most recent offering was sold in less that a week early > this month and brought in $205 million net. They have more than 100 > patents. They have excellent PR and make ceramic wire that is 60% silver in > order to gain flexibility. To carry much current it was discovered that the > temperature had to be closer to that of liquid helium than liquid nitrogen. > Huge government support has been available to the ceramic superconductor > work both here and in Japan - and still profitability remains a hope and a > promise. > > But then, some of us continue to defy the odds... > > Mark Goldes, Chairman & CEO, Magnetic Power Inc. and Room Temperature > Superconductors Inc. (a susidiary) > > > > > ------Original Message------ > From: "Mike C" > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: March 18, 2000 11:21:39 AM GMT > Subject: Business Models > > > Our colleague Jed has been, shall we say, emphatic, about the proper way to > start up a business. As a successful entrepreneur, now independently > wealthy, he can speak with some authority. He has contributed insightful > essays on the Wright brothers, among other episodes in history. > > I have a different perspective, not from personal entreprenurship, but from > participation in and witnessing successful initiatives and failures of the > RCA corporation. I joined in 1949, in the bright forenoon of its existence > and was witness to its long decline and eventual purchase and dismemberment > by GE, retiring at the beginning of 1989. There are some lessons here. For > the latecomers I will recite the accomplishments of David Sarnoff and the > corporation he headed. > > 1. Broadcast radio service on a national scale > 2. Broadcast television service on a national scale > 3. Compatible color television on a national scale > > Included in 3 is the technology of the color picture tube, which you are all > looking at as you read this message (or a liquid crystal display on a > laptop, in which RCA was a pioneer). The accomplishment of (3) was a > bet-your-company enterprise, a technical tour-de-force of magnitude. It > involved making chickens and eggs at the same time, as with (1) and (2). > Somewhat subsidiary to these were, not necessarily in strict historical > order: > > 4. Motion picture sound (competitor - Western Electric) > 5. 16 mm film projection (major position, several competitors) > 6. 45 RPM phonograph technology (buried by the LP) > 7. High intelligibility intercommunication systems for aircraft > 8. Wideband, high capacity recorders for satellites > 9. Largest electronic computer of its time (Bizmac II) > 10. Graphic Systems Division (electronic publishing) > 10.1 First comprehensive word processing program > 11. Weather satellites > 12. High performance solid state TV camera technology > 13. Selectavision consumer VCR technology, contributing to - > 14. VHS videocassette technology (color and hi-fi sound) > 15. Liquid crystal display technology > 16. First amorphous silicon solar panels with 10% efficiency > 17. Superconducting wire > 18. Selectavision video disc system > 19. First full hour recording of color TV on a CD-ROM > 20. Aegis phased-array radar system for naval vessels > 21. Major contributions to HDTV technology > > I've probably left some things out. I was a Principal Member of Technical > Staff, or equivalent, after my ninth year. I directly participated in 7,8 > and 10, and peripherally in 13. I was a member of Corporate Manufacturing > Staff and later of the Manufacturing Technology Laboratory at the Sarnoff > Research Center in Princeton. > > Germane to the discussion about Mills is the Graphic Systems Division. RCA > had made some forays into the publishing business, one being a color > separation system using CRT technology which didn't go very far. Flush with > money from color TV, RCA decided to combine computer and TV technology in a > system to capture the newspaper composing room business. The goal was to > produce an entire newspaper page as a film image, from which newspaper > printing plates could be made. At that time there was great skepticism that > CRT imalging could ever produce graphic arts quality type images. As you > read this with your desktop publishing facilities, remember that it began > about 1961 with RCA's Graphic Systems Division. > > RCA's customers were major publishers which were being asked to invest major > capital in a new system which sat at the core of their business. It would > not do for this to be some auxiliary initiative of some other division, as > it was with the earlier color scanner. RCA had to show commitment by setting > up a corporate division in its own new building and staffing it with people > with a full time, neck-on-the-block commitment to its success. > > It happened that RCA made an alliance with Firma Hell in Germany, which had > an established reputation in image scanning and was also working towards > newspaper text preparation. We showed a Hell system at a major show, but it > didn't work. All night diagnostics showed that it wasn't going to work. That > embarrassment was survived, and for some 6-12 months RCA Graphic Systems had > daily visitors from the publishing industry. For several years there were > increasing visitors form Japan, finally with a resident team of eight. RCA > GSD did succeed in producing a full newspaper text page. The LA Times used > an RCA system for the want ads for several years. > > GSD lasted five years, eventually folded into the computer division, which > itself folded and took GSD down with it. Basically, GSD was too early and > the goal too high. We were not able to master half tones and charcoal > sketches for display ads well enough with the computer storage capacity of > the time. High resolution laser writers were still in the future. We could > not show the bean counters an assured market that would generate a $50 > million annual cash flow. > > Coming back to Mills, his customers are major corporations who will have to > make major investments to develop either the energy or chemical > technologies. Therefore, he has to look like a neck-on-the-block startup > with suit and tie and facilities in a prestigious area (near Princeton NJ). > He has made all the right moves according to this model. Many, many others > have followed this trail with success. His investors are all qualified -- > able to lose their shirts without also losoing bread on the table. His > product is no more vaporous that those in the biotechnology and genetics > area which have created an investment feeding frenzy. > > In the RCA list, some of the enterprises are still going, like the Energizer > Bunny. Items 8 and 21are still going, sustained by the government as > national resources. Items 15,16, and 17 were spun off from the Sarnoff > Center because they didn't fit RCA's marketing posture. Look what happened > to liquid crystal technology. Some failed for reasons that would > individually make interesting stories, some after investments in the $XXX > million. RCA's (and GE's) consumer electronics business is now owned by > Thompson of France, which makes Thompson one of the big three or four > globally, with Philips (Philips, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvania) and Mashushita > (Mashushita, Panasonic, JVC). > > Mike Carrell > > Mark Goldes > ______________________________________________ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 14:16:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13885; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:14:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:14:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa (Fred) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:14:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1fv7ds4tglpchj9g9cu73nrb32mffjkamq 4ax.com> References: <029101bf90da$451c0e00$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> <004501bf90dd$d4047fa0$5d45ccd1@mikecarr> In-Reply-To: <004501bf90dd$d4047fa0$5d45ccd1 mikecarr> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA13858 Resent-Message-ID: <"wXUgK3.0.oO3.P__qu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:20:18 -0500, Mike C wrote: [snip] >There is an obvious external problem, visible in the patents. It is the >pulse nature of the discharge. You get very strong pulses if the system is >set for a pulse very second or so, and much weaker pulses if the PAGD fires >rapidly. Tables in the patents show that the energy gain may be less than >ten under rapid fire conditions. The discharge can't be triggered to >stabilize the frequency without losing the energy gain. I have often wondered if there is a limit to the power (not energy), that can be extracted from the "aether". This seems to imply something in that direction. >Thus you have a >problem interfacing it with the external world, and with making a >self-sustaining system without a mountain of batteries. I have given thought >to some electromagnetic transducers which might function as interfaces to >the outside world. If Correa ever got substantial funding, some of my >notions might be useful. Another rather simple possibility is to attach a very large fly-wheel to the electric motors, or in more modern terms, use one of the recently developed fly-wheel power storage systems. This has the advantage of storing considerable amounts of power, without the vagaries and lack of reproducibility inherent in batteries (shock effect with voltage spikes etc.). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 17:10:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28359; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:05:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:05:06 -0800 Message-ID: <005101bf913f$75760820$5258ccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <029101bf90da$451c0e00$b48cd2d1 w7o9k8> <004501bf90dd$d4047fa0$5d45ccd1@mikecarr> <1fv7ds4tglpchj9g9cu73nrb32mffjkamq@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Correa (Fred) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:00:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"XhrxG2.0.pw6.1V2ru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin said: > I have often wondered if there is a limit to the power (not energy), that > can be extracted from the "aether". This seems to imply something in that > direction. I don't know. > > >Thus you have a > >problem interfacing it with the external world, and with making a > >self-sustaining system without a mountain of batteries. I have given thought > >to some electromagnetic transducers which might function as interfaces to > >the outside world. If Correa ever got substantial funding, some of my > >notions might be useful. > > Another rather simple possibility is to attach a very large fly-wheel to the > electric motors, or in more modern terms, use one of the recently developed > fly-wheel power storage systems. This has the advantage of storing > considerable amounts of power, without the vagaries and lack of > reproducibility inherent in batteries (shock effect with voltage spikes > etc.). This was the route I was following. The essential thing is that the energy from the discharge be diverted into a sink whose voltage does not rise as it is absorbed. A battery can do this, or a ***very large*** capacitor. The mass of a loudspeaker cone appears as a capacitance at the input terminals of the speaker. If the current is dumped into a coil in a magnetic field coupled to a free mass, it can absorb the impulse and convert it into momentum. That momentum can be converted into external work. There are a number of physical realizations of this principle. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 20:23:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06012; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:21:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:21:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:21:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! In-Reply-To: <200003182136.WAA03266 ns.f.ubcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MEeVH3.0.cT1.PN5ru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html John Hutchison Raided At Gunpoint By Canadian Police Reporting From Shreveport, Louisiana UNITED STATES Word has been received this morning, Saturday, 18 March 2000, that John Hutchison has been raided at gunpoint by Canadian Police. John's apartment in New Westminster, British Columbia, was raided at 2 PM Friday, 17 March 2000, by gun-wielding police searching for firearms. An antique gun collection owned by Hutchison was confiscated in its entireity. According to Hutchison, a phone call was received at about 2 PM Friday, stating that it was the police, and asking John to answer his door. Hutchison states that there were 8 to 10 individuals pointing weapons at him, only two or three of whom were in uniform. The rest were dressed in dark clothing. Hutchison was handcuffed and placed on the outside steps while police searched the apartment. No warrant was claimed or shown at any time. Police stated only that there had been an anonymous complaint that firearms were being brought into the apartment. Police also called in an "electrical inspector" to examine John's lab equipment. This is the famous "Hutchison apparatus" with which John produces the renowned "Hutchison Effect." Additional individuals dressed in suits were brought in who took extensive photographs of the Hutchison apparatus. Hutchison indicates that these persons had an "official air" about them, and that they might be Government agents, especially given the confiscation of the original Hutchison lab, which took place while John was out of the country in 1990. None of these persons showed any identification. Those who have followed John's career of invention and innovation will recall that his first laboratory was forcibly seized by the Canadian Government on 24 February 1990 by the direct order of former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulruney. The Government has retained the lab in spite of a court order by Judge Paris of the Supreme Court of British Columbia to return it. A previous raid on John Hutchison's apartment involving his collection of antique firearms occured in 1978, and processing took two years. The confiscated antiques were returned at the order of Judge Paris. These events occured under the administration of former PM Joe Clark. The present raid follows close on the heels of a recent successful levitation performed 11 October 1999 which was videotaped by John. The effect was achieved after six days worth of attempts. However, neighbors called local police to complain about Hutchison's experiment. It is unclear whether something in their apartment levitated, although there is no other way known at this time that they could have been aware of the levitation experiment that was in progress. The neighbors in question live across the street from Hutchison. The sound of approaching sirens was recorded on the video soundtrack of Hutchison's camcorder during the experiment, and video of some emergency vehicles and personnel was obtained. Further updates on the situation will be posted promptly on this website. Mark A. Solis Shreveport, LA USA Webmaster for John Hutchison your_neighbor geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 20:48:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13234; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:46:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:46:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318234317.007a9100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:43:17 -0500 To: "R. Wormus" , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Running with K In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000318102210.0079b210 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"d67QK.0.iE3.Mk5ru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R. Wormus wrote: >This is all idle speculation on your part. Yes, but harmless speculation. >Without knowing the filing date of Mills patent(s) and a careful reading of >the claims granted it is impossible to know if Vinces work has any bearing at >all. Right. That's why I said it could be interesting. Not is, could be. >In any case, I would respectfully suggest that you study the US patent rules >(CFR Vol. #37) before making more misleading comments. I do not know the detailed rules, but my understanding is that if someone else did the experiments at the same time or long before, the patent would be in jeopardy. A lot of CF experiments were done a long time before most people realize. (And I am pretty sure Mills is doing CF -- whatever it turns out to be.) For example, Mizuno spotted neutons long before 1989, but he did not know what to make of them. A careful reexamination of the historical record might upset priority for several aspects of CF, and Fleischmann would be the first to admit. I do not know enough about the Mills claims to know if the have been made before, but it would not surprise me to find that some of them have. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 18 21:49:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26535; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:45:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:45:06 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:44:30 EST Subject: H2K: Run 031800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: wgood blacklightpower.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"GBotK.0.UU6.Yb6ru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Here is all the raw data from run 031800 as recorded in my lab notebook. Run conducted Saturday March 18, 2000. It was a very smooth run, I tried various fill pressures in the course of the run without much effect, nice steady glow and power in until T+160 when I decided to increase power from 20 watts to 30 watts. Tc of course began to rise over the next 15 minutes as expected but at T+ 174:30 the power meter suddenly indicates five (5) watts. The two parallel backup meters confirmed the reading on the Texmate meter! Tube voltage changed slightly from 463 volts to 469 but there was a BIG change in tube current. It dropped from 65.1 milliamps to 12.1 milliamps !! I have no idea what caused this. The only thing changing at the time this happened was the rising tube temperature after the power increase at T+160. The tube ran at this low current draw mode ( 11.1 TO 13.2 mA ) for a full 20 minutes, temperature rising rapidly for the entire time, 20 minutes plus 3 additional minutes thermal delay. Absolutely must find the cause of this. Tc/watt jumped from around 17 to over 90!! Possibly the higher power input caused big release of potassium that is contained in the cathode quartz sleeve. How to control this? MUST control this. I will attempt an exact re run of this but without the fill pressure changes. I plan running the tube at 20 watts to a stable temperature at the fill pressure that was in the tube at the time of the Tc runaway (about 26 torr), and then increase the power from 20 to 30 watts. Stay tuned folks. I WILL solve this. I have uploaded the Lotus123 data to the file download page at my website. Follow the link on the home page to the file download page. Lotus 123 or a compatible viewer is needed to view these Lotus spreadsheet files. A photo of the graph of this run may be viewed at the website, follow the link from the home page. The link will be marked "NEW" Sorry for the CAPS following the raw data below. I pasted all of this in from the Lotus spreadsheet and it was in caps there. I'm not shouting. T=Time in minutes Tc=Deg C +-0.1C Tf= Fill pressure torr +-0.01 torr Pin=Input watts +- 1.0 watt Tr=Ambient room temperature +-1.0C T Tc Tf Pin Tc - Tr Deg C/W Tr RUN 031800 MARCH 18, 2000 0 21.5 19.81 0 0.5 0 21 Notes and meter checks 5 130.1 19.85 20 109.1 6.505 21 971V 0.021A 10 219.4 19.85 20 198.4 10.97 21 018V 0.019A 15 275.5 17.89 20 254.5 13.775 21 ADJ FILL PRESSURE 20 307.7 19.29 20 285.7 15.385 221085V 0.018A 25 326.3 19.93 20 304.3 16.315 22VERY STEADY GLOW 30 337.8 20 20 315.8 16.89 22 1062V 0.019A 35 342.1 19.99 20 319.1 17.105 231061V 0.019A 40 346.1 20.21 20 323.1 17.305 231056V 0.019A 45 346.4 20.22 20 323.4 17.32 231059V 0.019A 50 347.7 20.66 20 324.7 17.385 231059V 0.019A 55 349.7 20.98 20 328.7 17.485 211059V 0.018A 60 350.5 21.31 20 329.5 17.525 211059V 0.019A 65 351.3 21.62 20 330.3 17.565 211038V 0.019A 70 351.3 21.87 20 330.3 17.565 211040V 0.019A 75 351.3 21.96 20 329.3 17.565 22ADJ FILL PRESSURE Tc FALLS 80 348.2 19.48 20 326.2 17.41 221113V 0.018A 85 350.5 19.71 20 328.5 17.525 221035V 0.019A 90 349.7 19.93 20 326.7 17.485 23INCR FILL TO 30.33 TORR 95 354.3 30.63 20 331.3 17.715 23Tc FIRST INCR THEN FALLS BACK 100 350.4 30.8 20 327.4 17.52 23 846V 0.024A 105 350.1 30.97 20 327.1 17.505 23REDUCE FILL TO 17.30 TORR 110 344.5 17.45 20 321.5 17.225 23Tc FALLING 115 344.1 17.51 20 321.1 17.205 23Tc LEVELING OFF 120 345.4 17.55 20 322.4 17.27 231264V 0.016A 125 345.3 17.77 20 322.3 17.265 231266V 0.016A 130 346.4 17.94 20 323.4 17.32 23HERE FILL TO 97.9 TORR 135 350.8 97.93 20 327.8 17.54 23 Tc RISING 140 351.4 98.1 20 327.4 17.57 24 360V 0.056A 145 350.8 98.1 20 326.8 17.54 24 HERE REDUCE FILL TO 24.81 150 351.6 25.46 20 327.6 17.58 24 360V 0.055A 155 350.8 25.74 20 326.8 17.54 24 HERE INCR Pin TO 30 WATTS 160 401.9 25.85 30 377.9 13.39 24 165 434.8 25.87 30 410.8 14.49 24CATH/SLEEVE AT BRIGHT YLO HEAT 170 450.2 25.94 30 426.2 15.00 24 463V 0.065A 175 472.8 26.04 5 448.8 94.56 24 469V 0.012A SUDDEN DROP IN TUBE CURRENT 180 480.3 26.2 5 456.3 96.06 24 391V 0.013A VERY BRIGHT WHITE CATHODE GLOW 185 489.8 26.27 5 465.8 97.96 24 395V 0.012A WOW! 190 498.8 26.35 5 474.8 99.76 24 490V 0.011A 195 514.2 26.53 30 490.2 17.14 24398V 0.076A SUDDEN INCR IN TUBE CURRENT 200 500.3 26.54 30 476.3 16.67 24545V 0.053A HERE FILLTHEN PUMP TO 26.35 205 494.5 26.45 30 470.5 16.48 24 Pin JUMPING ABOUT 22-30 WATTS 210 488.1 26.7 30 464.1 16.27 24 GLOW NOISE AFFECT Tc METERING 215 479.9 26.83 30 455.9 15.99 24 VERY HARD KEEP Pin STEADY 220 499.3 26.92 30 475.3 16.64 24 Tc INCR Pin INDICATE 24-30 VERY JUMPY 225 504.3 26.98 30 480.3 16.81 24T+ 225.5-TUBE VAC SEAL FAILED...END OF RUN THE QUESTION OF THE DAY: WHAT HAPPENED AT T+174:30 WHEN THE TUBE CURRENT DROPPED FROM 65 mA TO 12 mA? THIS WAS APPROX TEN MINUTES AFTER Pin WAS INCREASED BY 10 WATTS FROM 20 TO 30 WATTS INPUT. NOTHING ELSE WAS CHANGED WHEN THIS HAPPENED, GLOW WAS STEADY AT 30 WATTS Pin WHEN SUDDENLY THE WATTMETER INDICATED 5 WATTS. I IMMEDIATELY CHECKED THE PARALLEL BACKUP METERING AND AFTER MULTIPLYING I x V , CAME UP WITH THE SAME ANSWER. TUBE CURRENT WAS INDEED AT 5 WATTS AND THE Tc WAS RAPIDLY RISING. THIS WAS NOT THERMAL DELAY FROM THE PREVIOUS 10 MINUTES AT 30 WATTS Pin, AND IT KEPT UP FOR A FULL 20 MINUTES BEFORE RETURNING TO 30 WATTS, THE TEMPERATURE BEGAN TO FALL AT T+ 198, 3 MINUTES AFTER THE Pin RETURNED TO 30 WATTS. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 00:36:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA21346; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:33:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:33:09 -0800 Message-ID: <001301bf9185$ef8657a0$f2441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Power Lines Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 01:30:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"llPdJ.0.RD5.239ru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They're Here, Robin. :-) Saturday afternoon a grass fire that went "under" four Cross-Country power transmission lines caused an arc-over that knocked out power on three of the lines,knocking out power over most of the state for several hours. The story was that the "carbon deposits from the smoke caused the short circuits". I first noticed something wrong when the fridge was making a weird noise and the motor was overheating and putting out a smell. I checked the wall socket voltage, and it was down to about 80 volts instead of 120. I threw the main disconnect and waited for the voltage to come back up. LLs attached to the smoke particles could trigger the arc, the same as they can initiate the bothersome "Corona Discharges" on high tension lines. Biomass should be loaded with LLs that are released when it burns, that is why I think the wood ashes from my fireplace are loaded with them also, and would explain the initial low conductivity of the water-leached K2CO3. Do you agree? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 00:39:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17935; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:36:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:36:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001601bf9186$74b30e00$f2441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: CNN.com - Fire caused outage that darkened much of New Mexico - March 19, 2000 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 01:35:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9143.60A314C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"_slgx2.0.3O4.c69ru" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9143.60A314C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/03/19/new.mexico.outage/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9143.60A314C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Fire caused outage that darkened much of New Mexico - March 19, 2000.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Fire caused outage that darkened much of New Mexico - March 19, 2000.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/03/19/new.mexico.outage/index.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/03/19/new.mexico.outage/index.html Modified=00546D5B8691BF01F3 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9143.60A314C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 02:13:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA29582; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:12:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:12:01 -0800 From: "Fred Epps" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: RE: Tewari Generator ?? Correa Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:01:24 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <009a01bf91ab$fc5dbce0$658cd2d1 w7o9k8> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"BieGQ2.0.8E7.mVAru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, The Tewari generator is a homopolar generator similar to the one that Bruce De Palma was promoting for many years. Fred > > > > What is a Tewari Generator, writtien about below, see flag > > > > > > Tewari --seems to have good results. #### WHAT? > >> Didn't the Indian government test the Tewari generator? As > well as Toby > >> Grotz? ###### T. Grotz ?? What ?? ##### From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 02:14:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA29569; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:11:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:11:59 -0800 From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: RE: Correa Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:01:22 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <009801bf91ab$faec79a0$658cd2d1 w7o9k8> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"907am2.0.xD7.lVAru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jeff, > > > >I never attempted to replicate the experiment. I only attempted to > replicate > >the results with what I judged to be simpler, more rugged and more > economical > >apparatus. Replicating the Correa experiment was financially out of the > >question. Yes, the battery packs and all... Additionally, if PAGD energy machines are ever to be practical > they > >would of necessity bear a closer resemblence to my stuff. My > work was an > end > >run around the Correas, and I recognized the likelyhood of failure. It's a judgment call. > > > >The excess energy claim for PAGD is so misunderstood by all of > us that to > >this day I doubt that there is a consensus on whether the > excess energy is > a > >forward or reverse electric pulse. I looked for both but was inclined to > think > >it was a reverse pulse due to the layout of their circuit. I will have to look at their circuit again, I am weak on the electronics end of things. I tried to > divert > >the incipient energy pulse to a load bank with a FET switching circuit > >without > >success. I used various combinations capacitors, transformers, and > inductors > >to coerce the anomalous energy into existance to no avail. OK. The key question here is of course whether you got the abnormal glow discharge and the "autogenous pulses". In theory I know the difference between the normal and abnormal glow but I have never SEEN the abnormal glow, and I am wondering what criteria you used to determine that you were actually seeing it yourself. > > > >The large geometry of my tube allowed me to see a haze line that formed > above > >the cathode. This sure sounds like it to me... The elevation of the line varied with gas pressure > from near > zero > >at threshold pressure to 1.5 inches at the limits of my vacuum > pump. The > >Correas may have never seen this because of the smaller > dimensions of their > >tubes. The reason I went bigger than anything they published > was because > >they > >said bigger was better and bigger was easy for me to do. Yes, I agree on that, they were very clear about that, and using an acrylic tube was fine too. > > > >If you have anyother questions let me know. No, I think that covers it. To sum up: You feel you did see abnormal glow and the cone-shaped discharges, and had something close enough to Correa's setup to tell whether it was for real or not. Mike Carrell saw your equipment and doesn't fully agree, and feels that it was not close enough to be able to assert this. I don't think the truth of the matter can be established without further tests. In those tests, I wouldn't change anything in Correa's protocol except to use a larger acrylic tube with sliding electrodes, which is within the bounds of the patents. I would definitely want to bring in somebody who was expert on plasma phenomena so I would know what I was seeing-- I definitely don't. I'm not in a position to do any of this myself right now, so the matter must be left unresolved until such time as I or somebody else can try it out-- or, of course, until the Correas astound us all with a commercial model. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 02:47:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA01262; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:44:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:44:57 -0800 Message-ID: <007301bf9198$5b06ebe0$f2441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Steven Russell" , Subject: Re: Strange Water, Positrino-Negatrino Affinity? Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:42:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"7xgcU.0.dJ.f-Aru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you go, Knuke, Assuming that Positrino-Negatrino Pairs (0.2 or 27.2 ev rest mass/energy)with the 0.2 ev Leptons created from the 0.4 ev Solar Infrared insolation on sea water, or surface water, or the 27.2 ev Leptons are made in the ionosphere from the 54.4 ev EUV photons from the Helium transitions on the Sun and are all over the Atmosphere-Hydrosphere they should show up in proliferation along with K2CO3 in leached wood/biomass ashes.Not to mention the ~500 Ion Pairs/cm^3 in air. The experiment that I ran the other day with leached wood ashes from my fireplace, about 250 milliliters in the bottom of a SS sauce pan (~7.127 inches diameter) gave a thickness of ~1.0 cm, and the initial resistance was about 11.0 Kohms and dropped to about 8.0 Kohms after several hours when exposed to the air, indicates attachment of the Negatrinos to the K+ ions and the attachment of the Positrinos to the CO3= ions. Absorption of the CO2 from the atmosphere: CO2 + H2O ---> 2 H+ + CO3= and possibly LLs attached to air molecules also helps lower the resistance as indicated by the change in resistanceof the tap water. All that is left to do is put a cover on the pan with an Anode electrode spaced to set up a DC electrical discharge to the water surface and the ~ 8 Kohm water resistance should act as a current-limiting "Ballast Resistor" for the discharge. One can either "Jiggle" the pan or incorporate a water jet through the anode to initiate the discharge between the anode and the water/K2CO3 cathode. Given the anticipated population of LLs in the water a high yield of CF/OU-Fission reactions should occur by uptake of the Negatrino by a Proton or Deuteron to form the P* or D* neutral entities, and get the results that I got using LiOH in a pressure cooker 25 years ago: P* + Li7 ----> 2 2He-4 + Negatrino + ~ 17.5 Mev OR P* + K-39 ---> Ca-40 + Negatrino + ~ 9.5 Mev D* + D ----> He-4 + Negatrino + ~23.0 Mev Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 03:09:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA02854; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:08:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:08:19 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf9192$98902720$0e9cf1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: References: Subject: Re: Run 031800 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:02:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"yYF3V.0.Ri.ZKBru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 6:44 AM Subject: H2K: Run 031800 > All, > > Here is all the raw data from run 031800 as recorded in my lab notebook. > Run conducted Saturday March 18, 2000. > > It was a very smooth run, I tried various fill pressures in the course of > the run > without much effect, nice steady glow and power in until T+160 when I decided > to increase power from 20 watts to 30 watts. > > Tc of course began to rise over the next 15 minutes as expected but at > T+ 174:30 the power meter suddenly indicates five (5) watts. > The two parallel backup meters confirmed the reading on the Texmate meter! > Tube voltage changed slightly from 463 volts to 469 but there was a BIG > change in tube current. It dropped from 65.1 milliamps to 12.1 milliamps !! > > I have no idea what caused this. The only thing changing at the time this > happened > was the rising tube temperature after the power increase at T+160. The tube > ran > at this low current draw mode ( 11.1 TO 13.2 mA ) for a full 20 minutes, > temperature > rising rapidly for the entire time, 20 minutes plus 3 additional minutes > thermal delay. > > Absolutely must find the cause of this. Tc/watt jumped from around 17 to over > 90!! > Possibly the higher power input caused big release of potassium that is > contained > in the cathode quartz sleeve. How to control this? MUST control this. > > I will attempt an exact re run of this but without the fill pressure changes. > I plan > running the tube at 20 watts to a stable temperature at the fill pressure > that was > in the tube at the time of the Tc runaway (about 26 torr), and then increase > the > power from 20 to 30 watts. Stay tuned folks. I WILL solve this. > > I have uploaded the Lotus123 data to the file download page at my website. > Follow the link on the home page to the file download page. Lotus 123 or a > compatible viewer is needed to view these Lotus spreadsheet files. > > A photo of the graph of this run may be viewed at the website, follow the > link from the > home page. The link will be marked "NEW" > > Sorry for the CAPS following the raw data below. I pasted all of this in from > the Lotus spreadsheet and it was in caps there. I'm not shouting. > > T=Time in minutes > Tc=Deg C +-0.1C > Tf= Fill pressure torr +-0.01 torr > Pin=Input watts +- 1.0 watt > Tr=Ambient room temperature +-1.0C > > T Tc Tf Pin Tc - Tr Deg C/W Tr RUN 031800 MARCH 18, > 2000 > 0 21.5 19.81 0 0.5 0 21 Notes and meter checks > 5 130.1 19.85 20 109.1 6.505 21 971V 0.021A > 10 219.4 19.85 20 198.4 10.97 21 018V 0.019A > 15 275.5 17.89 20 254.5 13.775 21 ADJ FILL PRESSURE > 20 307.7 19.29 20 285.7 15.385 221085V 0.018A > 25 326.3 19.93 20 304.3 16.315 22VERY STEADY GLOW > 30 337.8 20 20 315.8 16.89 22 1062V 0.019A > 35 342.1 19.99 20 319.1 17.105 231061V 0.019A > 40 346.1 20.21 20 323.1 17.305 231056V 0.019A > 45 346.4 20.22 20 323.4 17.32 231059V 0.019A > 50 347.7 20.66 20 324.7 17.385 231059V 0.019A > 55 349.7 20.98 20 328.7 17.485 211059V 0.018A > 60 350.5 21.31 20 329.5 17.525 211059V 0.019A > 65 351.3 21.62 20 330.3 17.565 211038V 0.019A > 70 351.3 21.87 20 330.3 17.565 211040V 0.019A > 75 351.3 21.96 20 329.3 17.565 22ADJ FILL PRESSURE Tc FALLS > 80 348.2 19.48 20 326.2 17.41 221113V 0.018A > 85 350.5 19.71 20 328.5 17.525 221035V 0.019A > 90 349.7 19.93 20 326.7 17.485 23INCR FILL TO 30.33 TORR > 95 354.3 30.63 20 331.3 17.715 23Tc FIRST INCR THEN FALLS BACK > 100 350.4 30.8 20 327.4 17.52 23 846V 0.024A > 105 350.1 30.97 20 327.1 17.505 23REDUCE FILL TO 17.30 TORR > 110 344.5 17.45 20 321.5 17.225 23Tc FALLING > 115 344.1 17.51 20 321.1 17.205 23Tc LEVELING OFF > 120 345.4 17.55 20 322.4 17.27 231264V 0.016A > 125 345.3 17.77 20 322.3 17.265 231266V 0.016A > 130 346.4 17.94 20 323.4 17.32 23HERE FILL TO 97.9 TORR > 135 350.8 97.93 20 327.8 17.54 23 Tc RISING > 140 351.4 98.1 20 327.4 17.57 24 360V 0.056A > 145 350.8 98.1 20 326.8 17.54 24 HERE REDUCE FILL TO 24.81 > 150 351.6 25.46 20 327.6 17.58 24 360V 0.055A > 155 350.8 25.74 20 326.8 17.54 24 HERE INCR Pin TO 30 WATTS > 160 401.9 25.85 30 377.9 13.39 24 > 165 434.8 25.87 30 410.8 14.49 24CATH/SLEEVE AT BRIGHT YLO HEAT > 170 450.2 25.94 30 426.2 15.00 24 463V 0.065A > 175 472.8 26.04 5 448.8 94.56 24 469V 0.012A SUDDEN DROP IN TUBE > CURRENT > 180 480.3 26.2 5 456.3 96.06 24 391V 0.013A VERY BRIGHT WHITE > CATHODE GLOW > 185 489.8 26.27 5 465.8 97.96 24 395V 0.012A WOW! > 190 498.8 26.35 5 474.8 99.76 24 490V 0.011A > 195 514.2 26.53 30 490.2 17.14 24398V 0.076A SUDDEN INCR IN TUBE > CURRENT > 200 500.3 26.54 30 476.3 16.67 24545V 0.053A HERE FILLTHEN PUMP > TO 26.35 > 205 494.5 26.45 30 470.5 16.48 24 Pin JUMPING ABOUT 22-30 WATTS > 210 488.1 26.7 30 464.1 16.27 24 GLOW NOISE AFFECT Tc METERING > 215 479.9 26.83 30 455.9 15.99 24 VERY HARD KEEP Pin STEADY > 220 499.3 26.92 30 475.3 16.64 24 Tc INCR Pin INDICATE 24-30 VERY > JUMPY > 225 504.3 26.98 30 480.3 16.81 24T+ 225.5-TUBE VAC SEAL FAILED...END > OF RUN > > THE QUESTION OF THE DAY: WHAT HAPPENED AT T+174:30 WHEN THE > TUBE CURRENT DROPPED FROM 65 mA TO 12 mA? > > THIS WAS APPROX TEN MINUTES AFTER Pin WAS INCREASED BY > 10 WATTS FROM 20 TO 30 WATTS INPUT. > NOTHING ELSE WAS CHANGED WHEN THIS HAPPENED, GLOW WAS STEADY AT 30 WATTS Pin > WHEN SUDDENLY THE WATTMETER INDICATED > 5 WATTS. I IMMEDIATELY CHECKED THE PARALLEL BACKUP METERING AND > AFTER MULTIPLYING I x V , CAME UP WITH THE SAME ANSWER. TUBE CURRENT WAS > INDEED AT 5 WATTS AND THE Tc WAS RAPIDLY RISING. THIS WAS NOT THERMAL DELAY > FROM THE PREVIOUS 10 MINUTES AT 30 WATTS Pin, AND IT KEPT UP FOR A FULL 20 > MINUTES BEFORE RETURNING TO 30 WATTS, THE TEMPERATURE BEGAN TO FALL AT T+ > 198, 3 > MINUTES AFTER THE Pin RETURNED TO 30 WATTS. > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram > Las Vegas Nevada > 702-254-2122 > http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html > Very good news Vince . I contacted Prof Conrads ( former director of the institute for low temperature plasma physics in Greifswald -Germany) and he told me that in a experiment with a potassium doped titaniumscreen introduction of hydrogen at .5torr at 750 C resulted in a until now not known plasma with the emission of intense extreme ultra violet light( EUV). When sodium was used no EUV was measured! The results are in line with the theory of dr R Mills. I can not exclude other explanations e.g three body chemical reactions in a low temperature plasma( between K,K and H) which can lead to unpredictible effects. If your observed effect is fully reproducible it would be interesting to see if there is no abnormal temperature effect when you introduce sodium . Peter v Noorden Pjvannrd knmg.nl From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 08:06:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15541; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:04:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:04:54 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Power Lines Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:16:57 -0500 Message-ID: <20000319161657171.AAA262 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"oQmrk3.0.lo3.cgFru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >I first noticed something wrong when the fridge was making a weird noise and >the motor was overheating and putting out a smell. I checked the wall socket >voltage, and it was down to about 80 volts instead of 120. I threw the >main disconnect and waited for the voltage to come back up. I'll comment on the LL's after I've had time to think some more about it, but you were lucky and smart to have caught that fridge before it flamed up on you. Most people would not have thought to check the voltage. If it put out a smell, you might want to consider replacing the motor, now or tomorrow. That sort of thing happens all the time on boats, and the motors don't heal themselves, even if you catch them before they catch fire. A fridge motor, you should be able to get through Graingers or somebody for about $40, then you can sleep at night. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 14:35:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10209; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:33:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:33:08 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Power Lines Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:32:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001301bf9185$ef8657a0$f2441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <001301bf9185$ef8657a0$f2441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA10193 Resent-Message-ID: <"9n7Oc.0.RV2.ZMLru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 01:30:47 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >They're Here, Robin. :-) Funny you should say that. Reading the articles, I couldn't but help getting the feeling that a "fire" was just a cover story. Do you know anyone who actually saw it, or perhaps even just the smoke? [snip] >The story was that the "carbon deposits from the smoke caused the short circuits". Is this believable? Grass fires usually produce blue smoke with no carbon deposits. It usually takes combustion of heavy hydrocarbons, or combustion in an oxygen poor environment (closed room) to create black soot laden smoke. OTOH grass fires do produce pieces of charred carbonised grass, though I find it a little difficult to believe that these would form an entire layer, shorting the high tension wires. [snip] >LLs attached to the smoke particles could trigger the arc, the same as they can initiate >the bothersome "Corona Discharges" on high tension lines. If LL's can be created for just .4 eV, then why don't we have "corona discharges" around every electrical circuit? > >Biomass should be loaded with LLs that are released when it burns, that is why >I think the wood ashes from my fireplace are loaded with them also, and >would explain the initial low conductivity of the water-leached K2CO3. If they are released when it burns, then why are they still in the ashes, and not up the chimney with the smoke? > >Do you agree? :-) Not sure about that. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 22:03:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA26055; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:00:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:00:54 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:12:58 -0500 Message-ID: <20000320061258031.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"2ASw.0.1N6.MwRru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yo Bill! If this is the Hutchison that was able to melt metals from a distance, then I have an interesting article from Business Week Jan 24th, 2000 in front of me. It says that a Dr.Glenn S. Daehn of Ohio State has more or less perfected a technique for melting aluminum using electromagnetic waves for the car industry. He has been working on it for the past 10 years, exactly the time that Hutchison's first lab was confiscated. Daehn is now working with Pacific Northwest Lab (Batelle) on the computer modelling for the technique, and it is hoped that the auto industry will be able to replace steel with aliminum on complex shaped body parts. Funny how Battele always seems to be a black hole for new science.... Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 19 22:16:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA28724; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:15:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:15:10 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <96.26ab988.26071bc6 aol.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:14:30 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Run 031900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: wgood blacklightpower.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"nRIzm.0.f07.j7Sru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Here are the raw data from Sundays run 031900. I was trying for a repeat of 031800 where the C per watt went over 95. Alas, it was not to be. It was evident from the start that the glow discharge was not acting the same way as the previous run, power in (Pin) *very* hard to control with much sparking in the tube with Pin dancing all over the place. BTW, before starting this run I spent the morning calibrating the power sense equipment, the voltage divider, Texmate wattmeter and so on. No adjustment was needed to any equipment. However one thing was somewhat different. Before starting a run I bakeout the tube under a 25 millitorr vacuum while heating it with a small hand propane torch. I heat just enough to vaporize some but not all the K which is loaded in the small trench cut in the cathode. The K "wicks" up inside the cathode sleeve when it melts. The cathode is a close fit inside the sleeve ( 0.1mm clearance ) I noticed this time most of the K moved up towards the active end of the cathode sleeve, where for run 031800, most of the K wicked downwards. I should have stopped right there. Mea culpa. The direction that the molten K moves depends greatly on where I begin heating the tube, start above the K reservoir and it wicks downward, start below and it goes up. So shoot me, I couldn't remember if I started heating above or below for run 031800, that produced the temperature runaway. It was 50-50 and it looks like I blew it. I think maybe this might have something to do with the amount of K delivered to the plasma zone. Too much at the start of a run and it interferes with the glow discharge causing much sparking and arcing, and the fact that during bakeout the K moved up towards the active end of the cathode may have choked the thing up at the beginning of the run. One thing I may try is relocating the K reservoir further away from the active end of the cathode. Easy to do, just mill another trench further away from the active end. That was the big difference between the two runs, the fact that the "good" run was very smooth operating at the beginning while this one was a real pain right from startup. I learn a little more about operating characteristics with each fumbling start I make so it's not in the ditch yet. Rome wasn't built in a day. I had a phone conversation with one of the Vortexians today discussing the reason for the drop in power when the temperature headed skyward in run 031800. The only thing that could cause that would be a current bucking the HV power to the tube. At the time power went to 5 watts, down from 30 watts the 100 watt lamp that is connected in parallel across the HV PRIMARY, went from a soft glow to full brilliance which says that a full 120 volts was being delivered to the HV transformer. At the time it happened I attempted to crank up the power control pot but at full on, it only went to 10 watts. I backed it down to 5 watts indicated, checked the backup meters and said to myself, well if it wants 5 watts, so be it, lets see what happens. So the power controller is working fine. It was set at 30 watts, saw 5 watts, and it tried to go to 30 but something was bucking it. I wonder what? Anyhow, here's the raw data from run 031900, the one that didn't go so well. Time Tc Tf Pin Tc-Tr C/W Tr Run 031900 H2 with K 0 25.6 19.58 0 0.600 0 25 5 153.6 27.33 24 128.6 6.4 25 Pin very erratic, hard to get reading 10 204.5 29.71 22 179.5 9.29 25 adj. fill to 25.10 torr 15 236.1 25.95 18 211.1 13.11 25 Pin very erratic, indicating 9 - 22 watts 20 272.5 27.21 17 247.5 16.02 25 Sparking in tube, ballast lamps flashing 25 284.5 28.01 19 259.5 14.97 25 adj. fill to 23.54. Pin still very erratic 30 288.1 24.04 18 263.1 16.00 25 Pin indicating 13 to 24 watts. very hard to control 35 299.8 24.45 19 274.8 15.77 25 almost impossible to get reading on backup meters 40 307.5 24.94 19 282.5 16.18 25 same prob. with Pin, sparking in tube 45 314.1 25.25 15 289.1 20.94 25 700V 0.021A. less sparking now. 50 322.9 25.61 18 297.9 17.93 25 824V 0.022A 55 329.4 28.89 18 304.4 18.3 25 823V 0.022A much less erratic 60 340.5 26.34 20 315.5 17.02 25 262V 0.074A BIG change in tube V and I 65 349.6 26.6 20 324.6 17.48 25 276V 0.0736A Very steady Pin now. 70 354.7 26.86 20 329.7 17.73 25 295V 0.0674A Texmate meter indicates 20 watts. 75 356.4 27.11 20 331.4 17.82 25 304V 0.0654A Cathode at orange red heat. 80 356.8 27.31 20 331.8 17.84 25 309V 0.0651A Running smoothly now 85 357.6 27.47 20 332.6 17.88 25 313V 0.0639A 90 355.4 27.65 20 330.4 17.77 25 310V 0.0660A 95 357.6 27.78 20 332.6 17.88 25 very steady voltage and current 100 359.4 27.94 20 334.4 17.97 25 326V 0.0620A 105 359.4 28.04 20 334.4 17.97 25 Increase to 30 watts here 335V 0.0920A 110 410.5 28.21 30 385.5 13.68 25 adj. fill to 24.30 115 439.5 25.62 30 413.5 14.65 26 287V 0.105A cathode intermittently flashing to white heat 120 468.2 24.49 30 442.2 15.60 26 but it wont sustain. Pin erratic indicates from 15 to 30 watts. 125 537.7 25.34 30 511.7 17.92 26 Pin getting erratic again 130 546.3 25.89 30 520.3 18.21 26 Pin indicating 23 to 33 watts 135 545.3 25.89 30 519.3 18.17 26 Getting hard to hold Pin steady now. 140 528.6 26.03 30 502.6 17.62 26 Do not see bright cathode glow. Think this run is a bust. 145 559.9 26.12 31 533.9 18.06 26 Very erratic Pin now. Hold on for 5 more minutes 150 549.8 26.21 33 523.8 16.66 26 Pin impossible to control. Pack this one up. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 00:01:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17424; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 00:00:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 00:00:00 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000320061258031.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> References: <20000320061258031.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:59:46 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"AlA0k.0.9G4.0gTru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke - Was this melting described as cold? Otherwise there's nothing especially novel about inductive melting - the hot kind. Hutchison claims that the melting occurs at room temperature or thereabouts. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Yo Bill! > >If this is the Hutchison that was able to melt metals from a distance, then >I have an interesting article from Business Week Jan 24th, 2000 in front of >me. It says that a Dr.Glenn S. Daehn of Ohio State has more or less >perfected a technique for melting aluminum using electromagnetic waves for >the car industry. He has been working on it for the past 10 years, exactly >the time that Hutchison's first lab was confiscated. Daehn is now working >with Pacific Northwest Lab (Batelle) on the computer modelling for the >technique, and it is hoped that the auto industry will be able to replace >steel with aliminum on complex shaped body parts. Funny how Battele always >seems to be a black hole for new science.... > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 06:25:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA16122; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:24:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:24:01 -0800 Message-ID: <38D6342F.C1CB0CC verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:22:39 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! References: <20000320061258031.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x0RNS.0.mx3.1IZru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I am very upset by the absence of information about Hutchison work on the net. Do Hutchison keep his work confidential? If so why there are some reports on experiments? This is incomprehensible! If one do not publish what he/she achieved, no one can profi ts from it. This is anti-scientific.! Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 06:36:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20771; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:34:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:34:54 -0800 Message-ID: <003301bf9279$3344aca0$e1637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <20000320061258031.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <38D6342F.C1CB0CC@verisoft.com.tr> Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:33:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"MIgt93.0.J45.DSZru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi, http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/main.html can provide some interesting stuff on Hutchison. Let us know what you think. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: hamdi ucar To: Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 9:22 AM Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! > Hi, > > I am very upset by the absence of information about Hutchison work on the net. Do Hutchison keep his work confidential? If so why there are some reports on experiments? This is incomprehensible! If one do not publish what he/she achieved, no one can profits from it. This is anti-scientific.! > > Regards, hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 06:42:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24462; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:40:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:40:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:39:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LZOtM3.0.6-5.eXZru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >My statement was concerned >with the impression you were leaving in the minds of others. Mitch, you are the only person on earth who gets these weird impressions. Nobody else thought I meant the police were involved. You are talking about your own imagination, and your own projections. You are blaming me because *you* have a lurid imagination. >***{Your original statement, to which I responded, said nothing about >frequent reincorporations or about change in general. You referred very >specifically to name and address changes, nothing more. I cannot explain every detail and every ramification in every message I write. What I meant would be self-evident to any businessman or investor. >>I have not changed >>the name & address of my company every couple of years. > >It was to the above statement that I responded, and there was no >implication that I would have responded the same way if you had said >something different. There was no implication that I meant something illegal or untoward is going on. I meant exactly what I said: he is changing the name & address frequently. Small companies often flounder around like that, usually because of bad planning or poverty. It is usually bad news. Mike Carrell says it is not as bad as it looks, which I am glad to hear. >As I noted, the statement which you actually made >would evoke, in the subconscious minds of many readers, images of a >disreputable individuals who manage, by frequent changes of address, to >stay just out of reach of the police. It would never evoke that in the mind of anyone I know. "Many readers" in this case means Mitchell Jones alone, one person out of a couple hundred I guess. I am not responsible for the subconscious minds of readers, or their runaway fantasies and irrational notions they read into my messages. If I say Mills' accent does not sound like he comes from central Pennsylvania, will you accuse me of implying he comes from Russia, or Mars? >It was just another example of the >process of artful insinuation . . . No, it wasn't. I never insinuate anything. It was another example of you drawing baseless, crazy conclusions, and then blaming *me* because of *your* fantasies! This about you, not me. , by means of which journalists smuggle >opinions into the minds of their readers. My readers are a lot smarter than that. I cannot "smuggle" an opinion in by "artful insinuations." All readers would recognize I was trying to pull a fast one, and they would ignore me. >The advantage of the technique is >simple: by saying something hurtful without actually saying it . . . Have you ever seen me hold back from saying something hurtful?!? Why would I do that? I enjoy saying hurtful things! All primates do. You are accusing me being too nice??? People have accused me of being too nasty, too blunt, too outspoken, too ready to jump to conclusions and attack. You are saying I am too soft. I really believe he is a criminal, but I am not saying that because by holding back I hurt him even more. If I say what I think, I am guilty. If I hold back and say nothing, I am even more guilty. It's Kafkaesque. , you >establish plausible deniability. If the unvoiced implication is challenged, >you can simply deny it is what you meant, as you have done here. I don't need plausible deniability. I don't care what people think of my opinions. If I thought Mills was up to no good, I would revel in exposing him. I have not said anything actionable, even to someone as thin-skinned as Mills. >***{This is utter nonsense. Address changes require other information in >order to be interpreted. Depending on that other information, they could >reflect rapid growth, rapid retrenchment . . . That's what I said, but I also noted that BLP has not grown by a single dollar, and they have only 25 people bouncing around inside that great empty building. Their sales are flat-out zero, so this is not rapid growth, and there is no place for them to "retrench" to. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 07:03:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA31215; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:56:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:56:03 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:08:02 -0500 Message-ID: <20000320150802171.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ijwZN1.0.ed7.2mZru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick writes: >Knuke - > >Was this melting described as cold? Otherwise there's nothing >especially novel about inductive melting - the hot kind. Hutchison >claims that the melting occurs at room temperature or thereabouts. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Well Rick, there is cold and there is cold, I suppose. The reason Al is so difficult to work with is because it oxidises easily, cracks under stress more readily, and is probably more subject to H embrittlement than other metals because of it's relative porosity. Heat is just part of the problem with Al. They've made a lot of boats out of Al and a large number of critical support parts, and if the welding or bending isn't done exactly correctly you can break 1/2 Al plates with your bare hands. It is something that I have done myself, and when you see it, you get a real chill knowing that almost anything that is made of Al could be found to be that structurally weak while in use, unless rigorously tested first. The Business Week article just says that the Al sheets are "hammered out" with EM pulses, which do not damage the sheet. Perhaps there is a heat conductivity problem whereby normally heated Al would be unable to give up the heat at a fast enough rate to keep it from being damaged, but a series of high speed pulses would allow plasticity and intermittant cooling to a degree that the desired movement is achieved without the negatives. This would be my most logical guess. It is also possible that the affect would be transferable to other metals with the right frequencies, E.I. this is not rocket science, just good metalurgical technique. The affect could also be a plasma phenomenon related to the 1940 Lord Rayleigh experiments with metals in low pressure N atmosphere that has been ionized by an external electrodeless excitation coil. Now that is more interesting, but Al is not examined in that report. There are also questions in my mind as to what role interstitial H plays in that technique as well, but it is not discussed at all. In this report, a number of metals were shown to glow abnormally and melt at temps far below the norm, much like what is described by Hutchison. It was also noted that the N would sometimes remain in an actively glowing state for hours after excitation. I have my own theories about this, and the explanations could be quite simple. If so, then the above technique of metalworking could be more broadly applied, and reduced costs a great deal. Mining extraction technologies could be affected as well. They may even explain some of the crossover phenomena that have been observed in many CF experiments. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 09:00:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08949; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:57:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:57:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320115636.00799790 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:56:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC: Iridium venture fails, $5 billion lost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Kr-MM1.0.cB2.DYbru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Iridium L.L.C., the ambitious, advanced low orbit satellite communications system, is bankrupt. It will be liquidated within a few months. It cost Motorola and other corporations more than $5 billion. The network needed millions of subscribers to make a profit, and it never attracted more than 55,000. Many of those subscribers signed up last year only to avoid Y2K telecommunication disruptions. The destruction of the 74 satellites now in orbit will cost $50 million. Shares in Iridium peaked at $70 in 1998, and closed at 66 cents on Friday. Other companies have also lost money in the project; Kyocera wrote off $93 million. Another low-orbit satellite network, ICO Global Communications, also filed for bankruptcy recently. This is a fascinating story about technology, markets, and corporate management. I was going to comment on it, but I'm so impressed by the Sunday New York Times article by Steve Lohr that I think I will just extract some quotes from it. First, some comments from me: Cold fusion would be a microscopic risk compared to this. It is ironic that Motorola dabbled in cold fusion but decided not to invest in it. They had the guts to do CF, and the money. They lacked the will. Iridium was the pet project of Gavin, the CEO of Motorola and some of the founder. This goes to show the surprising influence a single individual can have on some modern corporations. Another famous American corporation, Fruit of the Loom, was recently bankrupted by a CEO named William Farley. He borrowed $103 million in personal loans guaranteed by the Company, paid himself a fabulous salary, conducted "rich deals" with his own privately held company, and mismanaged underwear sewing plants. Investors lost billions. The New York Times comments: "the financial world's failure to call a halt to the high jinks appears to be one more example of Wall Street's capacity to be blinded by charm -- and by stories it wants to believe." And people accuse us of being gullible! I do not think it will be so difficult for a second or third Amazon.com to materialize. Eventually, Barnes & Noble or some other established bookseller will improve its web site, while Amazon will run out of investor's capital and it will be forced to stop selling goods at a loss. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Quotes from: New York Times, Sunday, March 19, 2000 ECONOMIC VIEW by Steve Lohr When You Are First And Still Don't Succeed THERE are two tenets of unshakable faith in all management bibles of the New Economy. One is that being the "first mover" into a market is a huge advantage. Get there first, as Amazon did, and all the self-reinforcing "network effects" of the modern economy work to your benefit. It may not guarantee permanent leadership, but it makes life awfully difficult for the second, third and fourth movers. The second, related tenet is that the future belongs to the big risk takers. Fear of failure is for losers. The American entrepreneurial edge is that business failure carries none of the stigma it bears in other nations. Failure here is a useful learning experience, increasing the chances of success next time. What, then, to make of Iridium? Dreamed up in the mid-1980's by engineers at Motorola, its creator and largest investor, Iridium was certainly a first mover and a bold risk-taking project. Yet it is nobody's idea of a noble failure; words like fiasco are more often heard. What are the lessons in the Iridium experience? First, the project was fundamentally different from the kinds of business ventures that turn heads today in the Internet economy. Iridium really was a bold bet on the future, while most Internet ventures are not. . . . . . . as a technology, the Internet is totally mainstream. Most Internet start-ups today are built on a blend of incremental innovations in software and the pursuit of some market niche. If one venture fails, it is easy to move on to the next, refining the software a bit and going after a different market. This is not visionary risk-taking or innovation. Iridium was at the other end of the spectrum, a giant long- range gamble on an unproven technology. . . . In the post-mortems written on Iridium since its filing for bankruptcy protection last August, Motorola's hapless management of the project has come in for great criticism. Mr. Saffo agrees that management matters, but he said its role in big, pioneering, technology efforts tended to be overstated. Mostly, he said, Motorola bet too early on the wrong technology: "They zigged and the world zagged." . . . Everything proved more costly than anticipated, from launching the satellites to making the handsets, which cost $3,000 apiece when the system went live in November 1998. . . . The hoped-for millions of customers never signed up. Iridium now has 55,000 subscribers and debts of about $4.4 billion. . . . While Iridium sputtered, ground-based wireless phone service grew at astounding rates in Europe, Asia and the United States. Business travelers, the main market for Iridium's global service, soon found that they could simply use their cell phones in major cities around the world. . . . [Michael Kleeman quoted:] "Iridium can be seen as the last gasp of the government telecommunications cartels, the last of the big telecommunications consortia tightly tied [to government]," Mr. Kleeman said. "And Iridium had the old mentality -- 'Build it and we'll force people to use it' -- as opposed to, 'Is there a market for this anyway?'" . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 09:13:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13932; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:10:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:10:41 -0800 Message-ID: <006301bf928f$86c1f520$bc4bccd1 mikecarr> From: "Mike C" To: References: <20000320150802171.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Hammering Aluminum (was about Hutchison) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:12:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"43PCl.0.cP3.Hkbru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke said: > > The Business Week article just says that the Al sheets are "hammered out" > with EM pulses, which do not damage the sheet. There is a method of forming metals which utilize the repulsive force generated by a strong AC field, or a very powerful DC pulse going into a forming coil. This isn't particularly new, but it is a niche application. Aluminum, being a good conductor, might be formed this way. The pulse can also induce local heating, which may soften aluminum with its relatively low melting point. I have no specific information about this; the words "hammered out" triggered a memory. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 09:22:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17913; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:21:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:21:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320121955.007a39f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:19:55 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Iridium venture fails, $5 billion lost In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000320115636.00799790 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mgsGD.0.pN4.6ubru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Iridium was the pet project of Gavin, the CEO of Motorola and some of the >founder. That is supposed to be spelled Galvin and "son of the founder." Thanks, Natspeak! The company was founded in 1920 by the brothers Paul and Joseph Galvin. Robert Galvin was the chairman and Chris Galvin was the CEO in 1991. Chris is in big trouble now, with stockholders suing the company. It is a shame. I hope this does prevent Motorola and other large corporations from taking large risks. On the other hand, I hope they do better market research before committing $5 billion! The trouble with a low-orbit comm network is that there is no way to scale it up in steps while you watch customer reaction. It is all or nothing. CF, fortunately, can scale from 1 customer to 4 billion. That is why I think Mills is making a mistake concentrating on the big customers first. He should go for the little guy & the garage start-up, establish credibility, and work his way up to the big guys. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 09:32:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20376; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:28:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:28:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320122712.007a2130 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:27:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Iridium venture fails, $5 billion lost In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000320115636.00799790 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"VC15s1.0.I-4.x-bru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is Motorola's statement: http://www.motorola.com/satellite/info/ Honest and forthright, I would say. This is a tragic situation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 09:35:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23162; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:34:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:34:23 -0800 Message-ID: <001901bf9291$b3356f40$089cf1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: References: <0.dceb170.259a7c47 aol.com> Subject: Re: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:28:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"S_BRd3.0.mf5.V4cru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:49 PM Subject: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill > Greetings and best Holidays to all. > > Please enable speculation on this.... > > I have been running a glow discharge in a quartz > tube, 0.225 inch inside diameter between W electrodes > spaced about 0.50 inches for 7 weeks, current about > 40 milliamps, voltage about 800 volts DC, no temperature > measurements taken. There was about 1/2 gram of metallic > K in the tube in H2 atmosphere at a fill pressure > of 100 torr. I just wanted to test electrode life > and glow stability in a long term run. > > This morning I shut the run down, cleaned the tube > and electrodes with distilled water, rinsed the > electrodes with 100% isopropyl alcohol and air dried them. > I then placed the W electrodes in test tubes and > added 30% HCL solution to clean them. Now the question: > > What would turn the HCL solution a royal blue color? > > Royal blue is subjective but it compares well under > fluorescent lighting to the light blue color on a > pack of GPC Light 100's cigarettes. > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram > Las Vegas Nevada > 702-254-2122 > > Vince, Did you ever analyse the blue coloured solution? Peter van Noorden Pjvannrd knmg.nl From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 09:56:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31425; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:55:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:55:00 -0800 From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: RE: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:44:02 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <38D6342F.C1CB0CC verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"OFIOA.0.xg7.pNcru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hamdi, > > I am very upset by the absence of information about Hutchison > work on the net. Do Hutchison keep his work confidential? If so > why there are some reports on experiments? There were one, maybe two articles published in Electric Spacecraft Journal. This is > incomprehensible! If one do not publish what he/she achieved, no > one can profits from it. This is anti-scientific.! Hutchison is open about his work, but there are great difficulties in replication. When his original video of bizarre effects was created, the effects were being generated in a room with a huge variety of devices operating simultaneously, including magnetrons, Tesla coils, powerful electromagnets, etc. Basically he just turned everything on at once. Some of the effects seen in the video, for instance a smooth metal ball that lifts off the surface of a table and floats in one place while spinning and maintaining axial orientation, appear to be under intelligent control. Normally with Earnshaw's theorem a feedback loop of forces would be needed to maintain this stability. There is some reason to think that the actual effects are generated by Hutchison and not the equipment, at least partly. I've been told- and I can't reveal my source-- that poltergeist phenomena follow him around even when there is no equipment operating. Hutchison and his supporters flatly deny this, but I trust my source. Maybe the equipment activated some latent talents? I've met John, and he is the nicest guy in the world. He does have a personality that I would describe as "mediumistic". Not a derogatory comment-- some of my best friends are mediums :-) Also, keep in mind that if he HAD published these reports he would have been ridiculed. I've done some experiments ("had some experiences" might be a better term) with similar results and nobody took them seriously-- except those who I didn't want to :-) This was partly because they were not videotaped, though... http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/pyrexp1.html if you want to read about mine. Regards, Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 10:12:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05481; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:09:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:09:32 -0800 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:14:38 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex-L Subject: RE: Tewari Generator ?? Correa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3BCOY2.0.VL1.Rbcru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Does the Tewari device show O-U ? Who is Toby G.,? On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Fred Epps wrote: > Hi John, > > The Tewari generator is a homopolar generator similar to the one that Bruce > De Palma was promoting for many years. > > Fred > > > > > > What is a Tewari Generator, writtien about below, see flag > > > > > > > > > > Tewari --seems to have good results. #### WHAT? > > >> Didn't the Indian government test the Tewari generator? As > > well as Toby > > >> Grotz? ###### T. Grotz ?? What ?? ##### > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 10:18:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09085; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:16:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:16:11 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <8c.1e0d501.2607c4c3 aol.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:15:31 EST Subject: Re: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"QgS-i.0.rD2.ghcru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/20/00 9:36:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, pjvannrd knmg.nl writes: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:49 PM > Subject: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill > > I then placed the W electrodes in test tubes and > > added 30% HCL solution to clean them. Now the question: > > > > What would turn the HCL solution a royal blue color? > > > > Regards, > > Vince Cockeram > > > Vince, > Did you ever analyse the blue coloured solution? > > Peter van Noorden > Pjvannrd knmg.nl No, I did not. The blue crystals precipitated out of the HCL to the bottom of the test tube and over about two weeks time slowly changed to a dull white color. I was busy with trying to work out bugs in the glow discharge and never got around to attempting to get the stuff analyzed. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 11:27:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03701; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:25:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:25:57 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:24:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"bpVW1.0.iv.3jdru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>My statement was concerned >>with the impression you were leaving in the minds of others. > >Mitch, you are the only person on earth who gets these weird impressions. >Nobody else thought I meant the police were involved. ***{You continue to ignore the point. (Big surprise!) I am not talking about the explicit content of what you said, but about the implicit content. My point is concerned with *connotations*--i.e., with stored information that was activated in the subconscious minds of your readers, as a result of your choice of words. There is no implication that a significant percentage of them recognized at a conscious level what you were doing. (If they had done so, you would have been laughed out of court, and any comment from me would have been superfluous.) Unfortunately, language is a complex skill, and most people are unaware of the techniques by which they are manipulated by journalists, politicians, and other "word men." --MJ}*** You are talking about >your own imagination, and your own projections. You are blaming me because >*you* have a lurid imagination. ***{Nope. As a person reads, his subconscious mind works in the background, inferring the speaker's intent and loading into peripheral awareness the imagery that seems to best reflect that intent. This occurs virtually instantaneously, and, for most readers, it is a process that lies entirely outside of focal awareness. It is precisely because of that lack of focal awareness that most people are vulnerable to manipulation. Thoughts and impressions can be smuggled into their peripheral awareness without their knowledge, by the artful use of words. In the present case, you made the following statement, pointedly comparing yourself to Randell Mills: I have not changed >the name & address of my company every couple of years. As members of your audience read the above statement, background processing searched through their subconscious minds, located the most reasonable imagery by which that statement might be interpreted, and loaded it, not into focal awareness, but into peripheral awareness. Thus the fact that most of them did not immediately visualize a scene wherein Mills left his house through the back door, suitcase in hand, as the police knocked on the front door, is irrelevant. The point at issue here is what sort of interpretive imagery would be loaded into peripheral awareness, *not* what would be loaded into focal awareness. To answer the former question, all we need to determine is what the most reasonable interpretation of your words, given the context, would be. And, frankly, your allegation that "address changes" are some sort of textbook analytical tool that is widely used by "investors," is ridiculous. Worse, even if we falsely assume the contrary, this is a science list, not an investment list. Thus any way you slice it, your statement is guaranteed to introduce unsavory connotations into the minds of most of the people who read this list, because that's the kind of interpretive imagery which background processing will load into their subconscious minds. That, of course, should have been fine by you: you had already insinuated that Mills might be dishonest or even insane, so the connotations associated with an image of him fleeing from the police was a trivial departure from the theme that you had already established. Thus it is clear that you would have been happy to leave that impression, had I not been so ill-mannered as to point out that you were leaving it. Anyway, that's my view of the situation. Your denials were expected, and have been duly noted. Now let's drop this silliness, OK? --Mitchell Jones}*** [continued denials snipped] > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:06:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19165; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:05:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:05:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320150345.007a65d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:03:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"86zk3.0.Hh4.hHeru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{You continue to ignore the point. (Big surprise!) I am not talking >about the explicit content of what you said, but about the implicit >content. My point is concerned with *connotations*--i.e., with stored >information that was activated in the subconscious minds of your readers, >as a result of your choice of words. I really do not not understand what you expect me to do, Mitch. I stated categorically that your subconsious mind is full of crap and that I never implied what you think I did. You will not take "yes" for an answer. What more do you want me to do? Should I apologize because I set off this wild fantasy in your mind -- and in no one else's? Do you want me to promise that from now on, I will read your mind, know in advance by ESP what crazy fantasies lurk there, and I will never again trigger one of them? Should I send you copies of all my messages, and have you vet them in advance? There are other hairtrigger weirdos here who misinterpret what I say and refuse to believe me when I correct their wild ideas. Perhaps you should form a committee and assign ratings. Alas, I cannot read minds -- least of all yours. I may accidentally trigger another round of unwarrented garbage from you, and you might chose to plaster that garbage all over Internet. I suppose I should apologize to the readers here if that happens, but I think it is more your fault than mine. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:06:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19221; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:05:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:05:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320145032.007a1100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:50:32 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: People cannot be at amient Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nHqeY2.0.Fi4.oHeru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hesitate to bring up a politically controversial, loaded subject, but I just read a description of the Waco infared test conducted recently. This makes zero sense to me: While the government suggests no shots can be fired without shooters, the plaintiffs argue that gunmen weren't detected because the temperature of their fire-retardant clothing and body armor was similar to that of the soil. If you put on heavy clothing and armor, it might remain at ambient temperature for a short while (maybe 10 minutes?) but after that it must rise above ambient temperature, unless the surroundings are hotter than body temperature. I am not sure what happens in the desert where people wear heavy coats. I have always wondered about that. I presume solar heat makes rocks and and sand hotter than a human body, and if the body is exposed it ends up absorbing more heat than it loses. I hope the judge rules out testimony that violates the laws of thermodynamics. I also hope that if anyone comments on this here, they will confine their remarks to the scientific aspects of the recent test. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:07:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19144; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:04:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:04:58 -0800 Message-ID: <38D63CE2.E06F5EA9 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:59:46 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! References: <20000320061258031.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <38D6342F.C1CB0CC@verisoft.com.tr> <003301bf9279$3344aca0$e1637dc7@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uDCUE.0._g4.gHeru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed, I had visited there, nothing in scientific value here. Even last information there is one or two years old. Am I missing something? Regards, hamdi ucar Ed Wall wrote: > > Hamdi, > > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/main.html > > can provide some interesting stuff on Hutchison. Let us know what you > think. > > Ed > > > > > > I am very upset by the absence of information about Hutchison work on the net. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:22:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17707; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:20:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:20:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <812075012089D01191AA00805FBE34210554971D xch-evt-10.ca.boeing.com> From: "LaJoie, Stephen A" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: People cannot be at amient Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:16:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"2nZZg1.0.WK4.EWeru" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:50 AM > To: vortex-L eskimo.com > Subject: People cannot be at ambient > > I hesitate to bring up a politically controversial, loaded subject, but I > just read a description of the Waco inferred test conducted recently. This > makes zero sense to me: > > While the government suggests no shots can be fired without shooters, > the plaintiffs argue that gunmen weren't detected because the > temperature of their fire-retardant clothing and body armor was > similar to that of the soil. > > If you put on heavy clothing and armor, it might remain at ambient > temperature for a short while (maybe 10 minutes?) but after that it must > rise above ambient temperature, unless the surroundings are hotter than > body temperature. > Depends on the nature of the heat transfer from the surface of the clothing. In a good wind, the temperature of the coat can be very near the temperature of the surroundings. There is a limit to the temperature resolution of the IR cameras. > I am not sure what happens in the desert where people wear heavy coats. I > have always wondered about that. I presume solar heat makes rocks and > sand hotter than a human body, and if the body is exposed it ends up > absorbing more heat than it loses. > > I hope the judge rules out testimony that violates the laws of > thermodynamics. > I don't think it's been shown that the laws of thermodynamics have been violated. You have presented a problem in heat transfer that has many unknown variables. > I also hope that if anyone comments on this here, they will > confine their remarks to the scientific aspects of the recent test. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:32:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30926; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:30:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:30:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320152848.007b0c30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:28:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: People cannot be at amient In-Reply-To: <812075012089D01191AA00805FBE34210554971D xch-evt-10.ca.boe ing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jne7.0.7Z7.Bferu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: LaJoie, Stephen A wrote: >Depends on the nature of the heat transfer from the surface of the clothing. >In a good wind, the temperature of the coat can be very near the temperature >of the surroundings. There is a limit to the temperature resolution of the IR >cameras. Ah, I see. Of course. It is one thing to conduct the experiment in a lab with instruments placed close by, and quite another to conduct it outside from a helicopter! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:41:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20923; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:39:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:39:26 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000320150345.007a65d0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:38:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"DlALl3.0.i65.wneru" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{You continue to ignore the point. (Big surprise!) I am not talking >>about the explicit content of what you said, but about the implicit >>content. My point is concerned with *connotations*--i.e., with stored >>information that was activated in the subconscious minds of your readers, >>as a result of your choice of words. > >I really do not not understand what you expect me to do, Mitch. I stated >categorically that your subconsious mind is full of crap and that I never >implied what you think I did. You will not take "yes" for an answer. What >more do you want me to do? ***{Um, dunno. Is there a lake in your vicinity? --MJ}*** > >Should I apologize because I set off this wild fantasy in your mind -- and >in no one else's? ***{Thus spake Jed the mind reader. --MJ}*** Do you want me to promise that from now on, I will read >your mind, know in advance by ESP what crazy fantasies lurk there, and I >will never again trigger one of them? ***{As a self-proclaimed mind reader, you should be able to do that, right? --MJ}*** Should I send you copies of all my >messages, and have you vet them in advance? There are other hairtrigger >weirdos here who misinterpret what I say and refuse to believe me when I >correct their wild ideas. Perhaps you should form a committee and assign >ratings. ***{What would we rate? After all, you never insinuated that Mills was dishonest, or incompetent, or crazy, right? We "hairtrigger weirdos" just made that up, right? --MJ}*** > >Alas, I cannot read minds -- least of all yours. ***{Stated here, denied above. --MJ}*** I may accidentally trigger >another round of unwarrented garbage from you, and you might chose to >plaster that garbage all over Internet. ***{Thus spake Jed the Pure, who never, ever insinuated that Mills, or Newman, or any other inaccessible, uncooperative, egocentric researcher was dishonest, or insane, or incompetent. Why, that's just "unwarranted garbage" which "hairtrigger weirdos" have made up. And all those posts in the archives, supposedly signed by you, were falsified by those very same weirdos! --MJ}*** I suppose I should apologize to the >readers here if that happens, but I think it is more your fault than mine. ***{You owe lots of people apologies, Jed, but they will never get them, because you apparently lack the strength of character which that would require. --MJ}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:44:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02910; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:42:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:42:12 -0800 Message-ID: <007c01bf92ac$8393e080$e1637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <20000320061258031.AAA83 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <38D6342F.C1CB0CC@verisoft.com.tr> <003301bf9279$3344aca0$e1637dc7@computer> <38D63CE2.E06F5EA9@verisoft.com.tr> Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:40:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"gQWQA1.0.Nj.Zqeru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi, You're right. The site is more depleted than I remember. It was not exactly data abundant back then either. What I have seen is mostly in videotape form that shows somethings quite unusual, but a videotape cannot be considered scientific proof of much of anything, unless it is supported by a lot of other data, and this was not. I do not know exactly what is available. The only other suggestion, which you probably already noticed, is to try emailing Mark A. Solis your_neighbor geocities.com I emailed him about a year ago and he called me and we had a nice conversation. He told me what he has seen and is convinced there is no hoax involved. There has reportedly been a number of visits to Hutchison's lab by scientists, so perhaps there is some unpublished paper somewhere? Ed Wall ----- Original Message ----- From: hamdi ucar To: Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 9:59 AM Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! > Ed, > > I had visited there, nothing in scientific value here. Even last information there is one or two years old. Am I missing something? > > Regards, hamdi ucar > > > Ed Wall wrote: > > > > Hamdi, > > > > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/main.html > > > > can provide some interesting stuff on Hutchison. Let us know what you > > think. > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > > > > I am very upset by the absence of information about Hutchison work on the net. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 12:56:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08474; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:54:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:54:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <812075012089D01191AA00805FBE34210554971D xch-evt-10.ca.boeing.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:53:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: People cannot be at amient Resent-Message-ID: <"EpXiN1.0.G42.t_eru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> ---------- >> From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com] >> Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com >> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:50 AM >> To: vortex-L eskimo.com >> Subject: People cannot be at ambient >> >> I hesitate to bring up a politically controversial, loaded subject, but I >> just read a description of the Waco inferred test conducted recently. This >> makes zero sense to me: >> >> While the government suggests no shots can be fired without shooters, >> the plaintiffs argue that gunmen weren't detected because the >> temperature of their fire-retardant clothing and body armor was >> similar to that of the soil. >> >> If you put on heavy clothing and armor, it might remain at ambient >> temperature for a short while (maybe 10 minutes?) but after that it must >> rise above ambient temperature, unless the surroundings are hotter than >> body temperature. >> >Depends on the nature of the heat transfer from the surface of the clothing. >In a good wind, the temperature of the coat can be very near the temperature >of the surroundings. There is a limit to the temperature resolution of the IR >cameras. ***{Absolutely correct. And with the wind on that day blowing at 30 knots, men wearing body armor and insulated clothing would have been completely invisible on FLIR footage. All you would see would be the muzzle blasts from their weaponry. --MJ}*** [snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:02:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25012; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:00:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:00:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <008601bf92af$0e69a580$e1637dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000320145032.007a1100 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: People cannot be at amient Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:58:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"6hZFx3.0.k66.m5fru" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > While the government suggests no shots can be fired without shooters, > the plaintiffs argue that gunmen weren't detected because the > temperature of their fire-retardant clothing and body armor was > similar to that of the soil. Some of the video shows some outlines of shooters. The image processing had to handle a very wide dynamic range of infrared intensities, because of the hot fire in much of the video. This may impact the resolution. There is one piece of infrared video that appears to show two bodies on the ground that are very dark (cold). These apparent bodies had flashes thought to be from guns on one end of each (toward the Davidian building). They appeared to be on the ground behind the tank that was ramming into and destroying the gymnasium area, where 6 bodies were found with heavy mutilation and gunshots. It seemed reasonable to speculate that the two cold bodies seen with the flashes came out of the escape hatch of the tank. If I were in a tank on such a maneuver, I know my adrenaline would be flowing freely, and I'd probably have the air conditioning up on high. For a couple of minutes after exiting the escape hatch, the clothing could be well below ground temperature (depends on ground covering and solar intensity). From what I understand, exiting the tank in this manner is a tactic used to protect the tank in close fighting situations, to keep the enemy from climbing onto the tank and planting explosives. I don't know how hot the weather was that day. It was quite windy. I do find it rather odd that Judge Smith will not release the video for public viewing and would not allow media observation of the testing, despite organized media objections. We did pay for it. > > If you put on heavy clothing and armor, it might remain at ambient > temperature for a short while (maybe 10 minutes?) but after that it must > rise above ambient temperature, unless the surroundings are hotter than > body temperature. > > I am not sure what happens in the desert where people wear heavy coats. I > have always wondered about that. I presume solar heat makes rocks and and > sand hotter than a human body, and if the body is exposed it ends up > absorbing more heat than it loses. There is wicking of perspiration and insulation from the hot air, as well as a barrier of relatively moist air near the skin to limit water loss. That does not pertain here, as the ambient air temperature was well below body temperature. It is important to remember that the infrared images are heat contrasts from many sources. The ground temperature is what would be contrasted with the body image temperatures, not so much the air, I think. > > I hope the judge rules out testimony that violates the laws of > thermodynamics. I also hope that if anyone comments on this here, they will > confine their remarks to the scientific aspects of the recent test. I'm sure the government lawyers will bring up any 'facts' that contradict known physics. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:04:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12181; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:01:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:01:26 -0800 Message-ID: <00b801bf92b7$9f50b400$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Corona and Positrino-Negatrino Pairs Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:58:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"xOzt1.0.4-2.a6fru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The Electron Affinity of O2 for a Negatrino is 0.45 ev. N2 has no stable Electron Affinity. The Electron Affinity of C2 and CO3 is 3.27 ev and 2.70 ev respectively. The Radius, R of an attached Light Lepton = kq^2/(Eo + Ebinding) thus a Negatrino and Positrino can be attached to the same molecule without annihilation since their mass/energies do not match, and they should only annihilate in the free state. They should be susceptible to photo, mechanical, and high field detachment and thus initiate electrical effects that involve "Regular" Electrons. With a 3.0E6 volt/meter field around a conductor the Corona phenomenon is initiated in air at 760 mm Hg, but not in Dry N2. Other Electron Affinities: H 0.75 OH 1.83 O 1.46 N not stable Pd 0.56 Pt 2.13 K 0.50 K2 0.50 Ag 1.30 Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:05:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12655; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:02:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:02:34 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Hammering Aluminum (was about Hutchison) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:14:26 -0500 Message-ID: <20000320211426468.AAA315 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"yLQ9W3.0.X53.f7fru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike C. writes: >I have no specific information about this; the words "hammered out" >triggered a memory. > >Mike Carrell Yes, it would be what I would term micro or nano-smithing, if indeed, that is all there is to it. It's clever, but not all that new. I would think that any of the university modeling labs or the auto-industry itself would have the expertise to do the mathematical engineering necessary to make it work reliably. Irregardless, it presents itself as an improvement that could save the world a trillion of dollars annually in costs due to the mileage gain from a lightweight auto body, the decrease in the material cost of a car from not having to use as much steel, and if properly treated, it would last longer than steel. The project only took 10 years and a million dollars to develop, which is a pretty big return on the investment, if you ask me. Now if we could figure out why they are so interested in Hutchison's machine, maybe we could make some more similar improvements. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:06:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13971; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:04:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:04:17 -0800 Message-ID: <00dc01bf92b8$06252a80$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com><3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000320150345.007a65d0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:02:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"LzHMs.0.5Q3.F9fru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:03 PM Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Why don't you take your "Latrine Lawyer" BULLSHIT someplace Else, Jed? FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:18:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19719; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:14:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:14:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320161331.0079d9d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:13:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000320150345.007a65d0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aXauq.0.1q4.3Jfru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Thus spake Jed the Pure, who never, ever insinuated that Mills, or >Newman, or any other inaccessible, uncooperative, egocentric researcher was >dishonest, or insane, or incompetent. Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal? The only issue is criminality and the meaning of these frequent moves -- which turned out to be benign, as I noted. Mills is no crook as far as I know, and Newman sure as heck is. (According to the police reports filed by his investors, he is. I do not know of any successful court cases.) I never "insinuated" these people are crack-brained incompetents: I said that, bold as brass, plain as day. In my opinion, most o-u and CF scientists are candidates for the loony bin. CF is like show business or politics; it attracts the dregs of society. If you are buddy-buddy with these people you have more than enough reasons to be upset with me, so don't go inventing new reasons. >***{You owe lots of people apologies, Jed, but they will never get them, >because you apparently lack the strength of character which that would >require. Don't be ridiculous. I apologize, retract and correct the record frequently. I retracted my doubts about the relocations and name changes right here, as soon as Mike Carrell gave us the straight dope. I just retracted them again, in paragraph 2 above. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:30:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25223; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:28:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:28:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000320150802171.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> References: <20000320150802171.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:27:37 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"A1lir3.0.p96.YVfru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke - I've seen Hutchison's video. If what is on the video is real, then an aluminum sample fell apart and *liquified* at room temperature. Of course what was presented could just have easily been super-low melt solder under a hair dryer, so it's all very speculative. I once read where metals were described as being made of atoms held together in a sea of electrons. In that sense it wouldn't be too much of a surprise to me that some unusual EM situations from the Hutchison effect(s) could give rise to some odd or violent 'sea states' in metals. And it does seem to be a common thread in this sort of thing and CF, that in some rare circumstances, the Coulomb force appears to not always be the monolithic fixed-value entity the way conventional physics describes it. It's a shame that Hutchison is A) such a nutter, and B) that he can't get a break from the neighbors and government. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot - why does he have to play with guns at all? If it's real he's on the track of some of the most valuable stuff there ever was! Why would he have time for or interest in anything else - especially something that would clearly jeopardize his effort? Isn't this all just typical? Sheesh. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:34:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26445; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:30:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:30:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320162918.007a0210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:29:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! In-Reply-To: <00dc01bf92b8$06252a80$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> References: <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000320150345.007a65d0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CrmLd3.0.4T6.rXfru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Why don't you take your "Latrine Lawyer" BULLSHIT someplace Else, Jed? It's simple, Fred. I usually do give it a rest, quickly. But if I retreat too often, people will spread many nasty rumors about what I said. Pretty soon the situation will be out of control. What I actually say can be strong at times. What I am accused of saying, by the lunatic fringe here and on s.p.f., is much worse. You may not like me, and you may not care for what I say, but I want to make damn sure that you do not confuse my statements with other people's weird subconscious free-association rambling. I will not take responsibility for the words that Dick Blue or Mitchell Jones stuff into my mouth. I want to make it VERY clear where my statements end, and their fantasies begin. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:42:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29731; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:37:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:37:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000320163629.0079ebe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:36:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: People cannot be at amient In-Reply-To: <008601bf92af$0e69a580$e1637dc7 computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20000320145032.007a1100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cb_rj1.0.PG7.cefru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: >I do find it rather odd that Judge Smith will not release the video for >public viewing and would not allow media observation of the testing, despite >organized media objections. We did pay for it. I think I read that it will be released later on, after a court ordered independent evaluation now underway, or perhaps after the trial. I guess the judge does not want to prejudice the independent study, or drown it out the conclusions published in the media. I believe all evidence has to be released after trial, except in special cases such as endangered witnesses. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 13:51:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04606; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:50:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:50:39 -0800 Message-ID: <011901bf92be$84d8b760$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000320093926.007a5160 pop.mindspring.com><3.0.6.32.20000317141106.0079b990@pop.mindspring.com><3.0.6.32.20000320150345.007a65d0@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000320162918.007a0210@pop.mindspr ing.com> Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:48:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"5b-EQ2.0.s71.lqfru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Mills NOT running from police!!! Jed wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Why don't you take your "Latrine Lawyer" BULLSHIT someplace Else, Jed? > > It's simple, Fred. I usually do give it a rest, quickly. But if I retreat > too often, people will spread many nasty rumors about what I said. Pretty > soon the situation will be out of control. What I actually say can be > strong at times. What I am accused of saying, by the lunatic fringe here > and on s.p.f., is much worse. Well,there is a Full Moon out there today. :-) > > You may not like me, To the contrary, I've had a high regard for you and your opinions through the years, but, you and mssr. Jones have turned vortex-l into a noise generator > and you may not care for what I say, but I want to > make damn sure that you do not confuse my statements with other people's > weird subconscious free-association rambling. I will not take > responsibility for the words that Dick Blue or Mitchell Jones stuff into my > mouth. I want to make it VERY clear where my statements end, and their > fantasies begin. Perhaps a New List for FRothwell vs Jones? :-) Best Regards, Frederick > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 16:00:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19678; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:59:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:59:38 -0800 Message-ID: <38D6BB26.58454A6B verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:58:30 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! References: <20000320150802171.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Awe-H3.0.Dp4.ejhru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, I agree with you. The problem is here not the repeatability. Is he published any experiment notes, measurements, engineering details about his work? Some people prefer to keep everything inside his mind. And such a knowledge are eventually lost. Very sad. Actually, absence of documentation is the sign of absence of scientific motivation. hamdi Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Knuke - > > I've seen Hutchison's video. If what is on the video is real, then an > aluminum sample fell apart and *liquified* at room temperature. Of > course what was presented could just have easily been super-low melt > solder under a hair dryer, so it's all very speculative. [snip] > > > It's a shame that Hutchison is A) such a nutter, and B) that he can't > get a break from the neighbors and government. Talk about shooting > yourself in the foot - why does he have to play with guns at all? If > it's real he's on the track of some of the most valuable stuff there > ever was! Why would he have time for or interest in anything else - > especially something that would clearly jeopardize his effort? > > Isn't this all just typical? Sheesh. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 16:39:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05374; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:37:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:37:49 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:51:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Resent-Message-ID: <"lHj-v2.0.jJ1.PHiru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those interested but who haven't seen the Nexus article about Hutchison: Perhaps this explains why Scott Little never obatins any ou results. Big tall Texans scare away the Poultergeist! Maybe you should take sensitivity training Scott? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 16:56:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01847; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:53:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:53:31 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:05:25 -0500 Message-ID: <20000321010525859.AAA212 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"JbLho.0.NS.7Wiru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick writes: >Knuke - > >I've seen Hutchison's video. If what is on the video is real, then an >aluminum sample fell apart and *liquified* at room temperature. Of >course what was presented could just have easily been super-low melt >solder under a hair dryer, so it's all very speculative. I had a chance to see his video, and I think, even meet him in Seattle at one time, but was too busy to go do either one. I've only just now started to get into the plasma thing far enough that I can see some of the possibilities. It was even mentioned as a possible cavitation related effect early on, but I didn't understand it well enough at the time to see the significance. >I once read where metals were described as being made of atoms held >together in a sea of electrons. In that sense it wouldn't be too much >of a surprise to me that some unusual EM situations from the >Hutchison effect(s) could give rise to some odd or violent 'sea >states' in metals. And it does seem to be a common thread in this >sort of thing and CF, that in some rare circumstances, the Coulomb >force appears to not always be the monolithic fixed-value entity the >way conventional physics describes it. Yes, and I think that we may be closer to understanding enough of the fundamentals that we can do some incredible stuff with this. If what I am thinking is possible, it could easily power a revolution of sorts. It's enormously interesting stuff. >It's a shame that Hutchison is A) such a nutter, and B) that he can't >get a break from the neighbors and government. Talk about shooting >yourself in the foot - why does he have to play with guns at all? If >it's real he's on the track of some of the most valuable stuff there >ever was! Why would he have time for or interest in anything else - >especially something that would clearly jeopardize his effort? > >Isn't this all just typical? Sheesh. Well, I haven't met the guy, so I don't know his world view. As for the guns, I had to scratch my head for a long time to come up with 5 households in this country that I knew didn't have guns in them, and that was including my own and yours. I'm assuming you don't own a gun only by your comment. In the Pacific Northwest, Canada, and Alaska especially, it is the norm. Many people up there, including a lot of women and kids, have a long knife strapped to their leg, a couple of dogs with them, and rifle on them at all times. Some of them I know even sleep that way. Even in Indiana where I grew up, and where the largest, wildest, four-legged beastie type predator was a bunny going after your string beans, everybody I know has guns in their houses. Most people I know have at least three, even many of the old hippies! While I fully agree with your sentiment, and I don't want to start a poll, I think that you and I would be in the vast minority, if the truth were known. So who is crazy, us or the large majority? That's a rhetorical question BTW, that everyone can ponder to themselves. Hutchison probably is on to something of great value even if he doesn't fully understand it himself, and it is unfortunate, but from my own experience I can tell you, if you do have something that is that powerful, and you tell people about it, you will experience the sort of thing that he is experiencing now, at the very least. Like I said, it could easily power a revolution of sorts. About the best we can do is hope that the revolution is going in the right direction, and keep the faith. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 18:06:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31355; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:04:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000321010525859.AAA212 mail.lcia.com@lizard> References: <20000321010525859.AAA212 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:04:27 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"z5Yr02.0.jf7.xYjru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke - >I'm assuming you don't own a gun only by your comment. I do own one and I'm not anti-gun. But when you're trying to do something that might be enormously important, you already know people are suspicious of you, and they have already confiscated all your stuff etc., why buy and sell for a gun collection when you must *know* that just gives them an excuse - one they've *already* used? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 21:42:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12788; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:40:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:40:32 -0800 Message-ID: <00eb01bf92b8$d3d5b8a0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: CNN.com - Administration to phase out gas additive MTBE - March 20, 2000 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:08:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9275.BEE3EAE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"O5oyQ.0.d73.ximru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9275.BEE3EAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/20/mtbe/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9275.BEE3EAE0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Administration to phase out gas additive MTBE - March 20, 2000.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Administration to phase out gas additive MTBE - March 20, 2000.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/20/mtbe/index.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/20/mtbe/index.html Modified=806110C0B892BF01BB ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF9275.BEE3EAE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 21:43:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA22321; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:40:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:40:41 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: John Hutchison (antigrav experimenter) arrested! Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:52:04 -0500 Message-ID: <20000321055204000.AAA178 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"0Wtnu.0.fS5.Mjmru" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick writes: >I do own one and I'm not anti-gun. But when you're trying to do >something that might be enormously important, you already know people >are suspicious of you, and they have already confiscated all your >stuff etc., why buy and sell for a gun collection when you must >*know* that just gives them an excuse - one they've *already* used? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Beats me. Why does he bother getting up in the morning? I have no idea. After reading the accounts of what goes flying around that guy's house, I would be under the bed most of time. I just now read them, BTW. That guy is loonier than all of us put together. My hat goes off to him. I would think that the authorities would try to make his life *less* stressful in the hope that he develops a taste for the game of golf or something. I would give him a free cable TV subscription, some ice cream bars and whatever else he wanted just to get his mind out of the other dimensions or where ever it is. Does he like girls? Get him a dozen. Don't point guns at his head and take away his stuff. Freaking him out or pressing the mess or whatever you want to call it is not what I would consider to be a red hot idea if he shows a real talent in those particular areas. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 20 23:17:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA03222; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:11:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:11:52 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.20000321071302.008cb758 metro.lakes.com> X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:13:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Thomas Malloy Subject: RE: Business Models Resent-Message-ID: <"-kVKN1.0.Go.t2oru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote; > >But then, some of us continue to defy the odds... > The patent laws have been changed making it easier to win a patent infringement suit. Thomas Thomas Malloy, Minnesota Real Estate Broker 2433 S. 16 Ave. Minneapolis, MN 55404 612 722 0069 fax 413 647 9599 temalloy metro.lakes.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 01:26:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA21651; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:25:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:25:22 -0800 Message-ID: <015c01bf931f$896aa480$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Positrino-Negatrino Pairs in Brown's Gas Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:22:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF92DC.5ECB37A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"dbUiA.0.7I5.z_pru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF92DC.5ECB37A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Vortex http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html The way I read this is that "resident" Positrino-Negatrino Pairs (0.2 ev or 27.2 ev)that permeate the Earth's Biosphere (with 12,000 Quads/Day Solar Insolation over a few Billion Years they should be there) are in the water: (-)H2O + H2O(+) <---> (-)H2O(+) + H2O Thus when the voltage is applied to the Electrolyzer Plates, what George is seeing is the alignment of the Non-bonded Gaseous Form of water at the center of the cell. This would allow these water molecules to come off of the cell as a gas that doesn't require the heat of vaporization to break the H2O-H2O molecular bonds and thus would give a false indication of actual heat going into an electrolysis cell and a false impression of Over Unity energy production in open cells. If this is the case, the enormous volume reduction and heat output when the gas is burned can be attibuted to annihilation of the Positrino-Negatrino Pairs and rebonding/condensation of the H2O molecules. Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF92DC.5ECB37A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Eagle-Research NEWest News about Brown's Gas.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html Modified=20E6F6281C93BF0193 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF92DC.5ECB37A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 07:53:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08275; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:46:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:46:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000321094525.0138e304 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:45:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill In-Reply-To: <0.dceb170.259a7c47 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"S-_2k3.0.912.8bvru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:49 PM 12/28/99 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >What would turn the HCL solution a royal blue color? Vince, I'm finally noticing this interesting result of yours. Are you aware that one of Mills' hydrino compounds, KHI, consists of deep blue crystals!? see p. 6 of this report: http://www.blacklightpower.com/acs/khi.pdf Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 08:06:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14090; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:01:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:01:20 -0800 Message-ID: <018a01bf9356$df1c2f20$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000321094525.0138e304 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:59:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"L-ZoW.0.zR3.Epvru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little To: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 7:45 AM Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Scott wrote: > At 03:49 PM 12/28/99 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > >What would turn the HCL solution a royal blue color? > > Vince, I'm finally noticing this interesting result of yours. Are you > aware that one of Mills' hydrino compounds, KHI, consists of deep blue > crystals!? These may be Kryptonite Crystals, so be careful, Vince! Regards, Frederick > see p. 6 of this report: > > http://www.blacklightpower.com/acs/khi.pdf > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 10:32:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08234; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:30:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:30:00 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:41:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20000321184154875.AAA305 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"jFNfY3.0.Z02.d-xru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I believe that KI is what Dr Suslick has been using to test for cavitation results as well. I don't know that he has produced KHI, but the solution that I was using to test for H2O2 turned blue. Potatos turn a bluish black and so do banana peels when they go bad. It could just be a K oxidation reaction in Vinces cell since Vince isn't using Iodine (that I know of). You would have to test it. Knuke >At 03:49 PM 12/28/99 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > >>What would turn the HCL solution a royal blue color? > >Vince, I'm finally noticing this interesting result of yours. Are you >aware that one of Mills' hydrino compounds, KHI, consists of deep blue >crystals!? > >see p. 6 of this report: > >http://www.blacklightpower.com/acs/khi.pdf > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > > Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 10:33:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08339; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:30:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:30:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000321132851.0079c6e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:28:51 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ICCF-8 fee due Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2g7u62.0.122.p-xru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The conference fee for ICCF-8 is due by March 31, 2000. It costs 750,000 Italian Lire if you pay now, or 800,000 Lire later on. That comes to $374 now or $400 later. The web page says you have wire transfer directly into their account. That cost more than $25 in Atlanta so I think I'll just pay when I get there. The web page (http://www.frascati.enea.it/ICCF8/) has been down for a week but it is working now. Hotel rooms are supposedly hard to get and you were supposed to register by November 15, 1999, but I didn't. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 10:54:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14909; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:52:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:52:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.dceb170.259a7c47 aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:50:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Resent-Message-ID: <"qn5Ij2.0.te3.IJyru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Greetings and best Holidays to all. > >Please enable speculation on this.... > >I have been running a glow discharge in a quartz >tube, 0.225 inch inside diameter between W electrodes >spaced about 0.50 inches for 7 weeks, current about >40 milliamps, voltage about 800 volts DC, no temperature >measurements taken. There was about 1/2 gram of metallic >K in the tube in H2 atmosphere at a fill pressure >of 100 torr. I just wanted to test electrode life >and glow stability in a long term run. > >This morning I shut the run down, cleaned the tube >and electrodes with distilled water, rinsed the >electrodes with 100% isopropyl alcohol and air dried them. >I then placed the W electrodes in test tubes and >added 30% HCL solution to clean them. Now the question: > >What would turn the HCL solution a royal blue color? ***{As I recall, several compounds of copper [e.g., CuSO4, Cu(CN)2, Cu(NH3)4] produce blue coloration in water solutions. Since your 30% solution of HCl is 70% water, perhaps some copper residue made its way into the situation, forming one of the above salts. Another possibility would be Cu + 2HCl --> CuCl2 + H2. If CuCl2 is also blue (I don't specifically recall), that might also explain your result. (To test the latter possibility, drop some copper filings into a test tube containing your HCl, and see what color you get.) --MJ}*** > >Royal blue is subjective but it compares well under >fluorescent lighting to the light blue color on a >pack of GPC Light 100's cigarettes. > >Regards, >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas Nevada >702-254-2122 __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 11:18:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20923; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:13:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:13:57 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:13:14 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"5tvEv3.0.m65.hdyru" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:50 PM -0600 3/21/00, Mitchell Jones wrote: >(To test the latter >possibility, drop some copper filings into a test tube containing your HCl, >and see what color you get.) I would think that the question of how a bunch of copper filings got in there in there in the first place would be the primary concern. Any idea how that might have happened? And why would these copper compounds would turn pale after a while? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 11:57:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06183; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:53:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:53:41 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF87713310C mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:56:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"al_vT.0.SW1.4Dzru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Huffman wrote: >At 03:49 PM 12/28/99 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > >>What would turn the HCL solution a royal blue color? > >I believe that KI is what Dr Suslick has been using to test for cavitation >results as well. I don't know that he has produced KHI, but the solution >that I was using to test for H2O2 turned blue. Potatos turn a bluish black >and so do banana peels when they go bad. It could just be a K oxidation >reaction in Vinces cell since Vince isn't using Iodine (that I know of). >You would have to test it. Warning! Wild speculation follows: Sonoluminescence = another mechanism for hydrino formation!? Consider that the interior of cavitation bubbles are a quasi-vacuum (thus the need for degassing the water before hand), much like Mills' gas phase cell. Suppose free H atoms diffuse into the bubble by some mechanism. Suppose also that a hydrino-catalytic ion such as those described in http://www.blacklightpower.com/acs/euv.pdf also diffuses into the bubble. Bubble collapse compresses the mixture, heating it to disproportionation temperature (disproportionation is Mills' term for the hydrino formation process). Further compression forces the reactants into close proximity inside the bubble; and a runaway (but confined to a point) hydrino formation reaction accounts for the extreme energy release observed in sonoluminescence. I wonder if anyone has compared the emission spectra of sonoluminescence to the hydrino spectrum, which is largely in the EUV to soft x-ray. We do know that the emitted sonoluminescent light is more intense as we go further into the UV spectrum. There are observational difficulties however: from http://starfire.ne.uiuc.edu/~ne201/1995/levinson/sonolum.html: [Along with the flash rate, the spectrum of the light emitted also is not obvious. In 1991, a graduate student of Putterman, Robert A. Hiller, discovered that much of the light is ultravoilet. After a photon energy of 6 electron volts (eV), which corresponds to an ultravoilet wavelength of .2 microns, the spectrum can no longer be determined (currently) because energies above 6 eV cannot go through water, the liquid surrounding the bubble. However, 6 eV corresponds to a temperature within the bubble of 72,000 K, which is incredibly hot. This is understandable after considering that the "volume of a sonoluminescent bubble drops by a factor of one million as its radius decreases 100-fold." [4] ] These hydrinos can explain anything! :^> -Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 11:59:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07263; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:55:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:55:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:53:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Resent-Message-ID: <"hdarI3.0.Pn1.DFzru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 12:50 PM -0600 3/21/00, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>(To test the latter >>possibility, drop some copper filings into a test tube containing your HCl, >>and see what color you get.) > >I would think that the question of how a bunch of copper filings got >in there in there in the first place would be the primary concern. >Any idea how that might have happened? ***{The idea occurred to me when I read the following, in one of Vince's earlier posts: "The reactor tube is completely enclosed in a 1/2 inch diameter copper pipe 3 inches long with the ends necked down to a snug fit around the 3/8 inch diameter quartz tube. This copper pipe has a K type thermocouple attached to the outside by a 8x32 screw." Since Vince has apparently been machining copper in his lab, copper filings, hence copper compounds, may be expected in places where they wouldn't ordinarily occur. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, of course. But we do need to discount the mundane possibilities before we decide he is awash in "hydrinos." :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** And why would these copper >compounds turn pale after a while? ***{The anhydrous forms of a number of these compounds are white, while the hydrous forms are blue. For example, anhydrous copper sulfate, CuSO4, is a white solid which turns blue as it absorbs water, forming first the monohydrous form, CuSO4*H2O, then the dihydrous form, CuSO4*2H2O, etc. Thus the blue crystals of the hydrous forms turn white upon drying. --MJ}*** > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 12:33:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20453; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:05 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:31:16 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZI8v71.0.Q_4.4nzru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/21/00 7:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: > Vince, I'm finally noticing this interesting result of yours. Are you > aware that one of Mills' hydrino compounds, KHI, consists of deep blue > crystals!? > > see p. 6 of this report: > > http://www.blacklightpower.com/acs/khi.pdf No, I did not see that report but will take a look. Thanks. > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 12:33:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20388; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:00 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:31:18 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"P6_oK2.0.yz4._mzru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have spent the last two days going over the auxillary equipment used in this experiment, calibrating everything and looking for a way for something to go wrong and produce that > 95 deg C per watt that happened in run 031800. Everything was fine. I even called Martin Ibarra at Texmate this morning and discussed the programming of the DI50S meter to see if it were possible that this instrument would on it's own, produce a wildly false reading such as I saw. He said no, as I did have two digital multimeters in parallel with the Texmate controller meter and they did agree with the Texmate reading. So.... I think I did see something as yet unexplained. At the time of the temperature runaway the tip of the cathode and the quartz cathode sleeve were at white heat, almost like a welders arc, when I looked through the 1/4 inch viewport in the heat sensor assembly. (yes, I did use UV protection for my eyes) When I get a chance I will upload the closeup photo I took of the viewport of the event. Got two photos, first of the tube at 30 watts and second, the tube at 5 watts when the cathode went white hot. I am going to try a few runs without the heat sensor assembly attached so I can get a good look at whats going on in the tube like where the melted K is in relation to the plasma zone. The effect shows up after the tube is well warmed up and I need to see the location of the K and so on. If the effect turns on I will know it not by temperature increase but by a sudden drop in tube current. Remember when this happened current dropped from 0.065 amp down to 0.012 amp and the white hot glow began at the same time. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 12:34:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20484; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:08 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <33.2baa22c.26093615 aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:31:17 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"oMuy_.0.v_4.5nzru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/21/00 11:17:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, rick mail.highsurf.com writes: > I would think that the question of how a bunch of copper filings got > in there in there in the first place would be the primary concern. > Any idea how that might have happened? And why would these copper > compounds would turn pale after a while? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Yes, there IS some copper in the glow tube in the form of a brass contact button at the very top of the glow tube at the end of the anode support. This region of the tube does not get very hot during runs, maybe up to 80C or so. No other copper or copper alloys anywhere else. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 12:47:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25408; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:44:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:44:11 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:43:30 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"EsYZv2.0.oC6.Oyzru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/21/00 11:57:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, Steven.Florek omnikron.com writes: > Warning! Wild speculation follows: > > Sonoluminescence = another mechanism for hydrino formation!? > Consider that the interior of cavitation bubbles are a quasi-vacuum (thus > the need for degassing the water before hand), much like Mills' gas phase > cell. Suppose free H atoms diffuse into the bubble by some mechanism. > Suppose also that a hydrino-catalytic ion such as those described in > http://www.blacklightpower.com/acs/euv.pdf also diffuses into the bubble. > Bubble collapse compresses the mixture, heating it to disproportionation > temperature (disproportionation is Mills' term for the hydrino formation > process). Further compression forces the reactants into close proximity > inside the bubble; and a runaway (but confined to a point) hydrino formation > reaction accounts for the extreme energy release observed in > sonoluminescence. Hmm...Steve, I wonder if anyone has tried the experiment with a, say 0.6 molar solution of K2CO3, or any of the other water soluble potassium compounds. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 13:42:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10720; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:39:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:39:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:36:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Resent-Message-ID: <"ZIwis3.0.Md2.xl-ru" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In a message dated 3/21/00 11:57:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, >Steven.Florek omnikron.com writes: > > > >> Warning! Wild speculation follows: >> >> Sonoluminescence = another mechanism for hydrino formation!? >> Consider that the interior of cavitation bubbles are a quasi-vacuum (thus >> the need for degassing the water before hand), much like Mills' gas phase >> cell. Suppose free H atoms diffuse into the bubble by some mechanism. >> Suppose also that a hydrino-catalytic ion such as those described in >> http://www.blacklightpower.com/acs/euv.pdf also diffuses into the bubble. >> Bubble collapse compresses the mixture, heating it to disproportionation >> temperature (disproportionation is Mills' term for the hydrino formation >> process). Further compression forces the reactants into close proximity >> inside the bubble; and a runaway (but confined to a point) hydrino >formation >> reaction accounts for the extreme energy release observed in >> sonoluminescence. > > > >Hmm...Steve, I wonder if anyone has tried the experiment with a, say 0.6 molar >solution of K2CO3, or any of the other water soluble potassium compounds. ***{That sounds like something for Ed Wall to try. Last I heard, they had a Griggs Hydrosonic Pump which they were going to test, and were awaiting the proper power hookup. If they are now capable of running the thing, why not add K2CO3 to the water? If there is anything to this "hydrino" stuff, that ought to be a very worthwhile test to do. --MJ}*** > >Regards, > Vince Cockeram > Las Vegas Nevada > 702-254-2122 > http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 15:44:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19188; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:41:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:41:28 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF87713310D mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:29:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"BA7ae1.0.eh4.dY0su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram writes: >Hmm...Steve, I wonder if anyone has tried the experiment with a, say 0.6 molar >solution of K2CO3, or any of the other water soluble potassium compounds. I have not seen that, but I only really started thinking about this today. Apparently the introduction of noble gasses increases the effect, particularly argon--I don't know why that would be. I have further wild speculation: Given that: A) Sonoluminescence emission is pulsed, with each pulse having an upper bound of 50 picoseconds and with each successive pulse dissipating in energy like a damped oscillator. Note that this occurs inside of the cycle of the sonic waves. B) Heavy water has a different sonoluminescence spectrum than light water (therefore fusion is suspected). Perhaps the disproportionation process primes the fusion process at the center of the bubble by creating the suitable temperature and by providing a dense supply of hydrinos, which because of their reduced Coloumbic repulsion are more inclined to fuse. Sort of like the role the fission device plays in a fusion nuclear weapon; the bubble collapse is analogous to the conventional charge that gets the fission going. We might then predict the pulsation behavior as a series of steps: 1) Bubble compression 2) Disproportionation (creation of hydrinos, emission of EUV, and increased heat) 3) Fusion 4) Displacement of by-products by heavier "cold" H at the bubble center This cycle might occur many times for each single sonic pulse as the bubble size oscillates to pressure equilibrium, compressing the bubble interior with each "downstroke". This fits experimental observations fairly well (pulses correspond to bubble collapsing). To test experimentally, one might expect the sonoluminescent pulsation to have contained within it time-separated pulses each with different spectral signatures 1) Hydrino emission spectra 2) Fusion spectra 3) Conventional absorption/excitation/emission spectra each corresponding to a different phase of the cycle. These would be difficult to detect due to the extremely short periods involved (fractions of the 50 picosecond cycle), but we could settle for simple time-independent measurement of the high energy spectrum inside a bubble for now. The difference between sonoluminescence with light and heavy water might be the presence of the fusion cycle in heavy water and the lack of it in light water. Obviously we would expect to find helium and tritium in the by-products if the fusion cycle exists. The major technical hurdle is still how to detect >6 eV photons inside a tiny bubble because such photons get absorbed by the water surrounding the bubble. Besides figuring out a mechanical way to get a photomultiplier inside a bubble, the only way I can think of to detect these photons is to introduce another molecule inert to the rest of the process that absorbs appropriate EUV wavelengths inside the bubble and re-emits them at longer wavelengths that penetrate the water. Tricky stuff! My understanding of the weakness in current sonofusion hypotheses is that there isn't a plausible way to heat the bubble center to temperatures where fusion can place. Hydrino formation may provide such a mechanism, as well as a way to reduce Coloumbic repulsion between nucleii. Any comment from the sonoluminescence experts? -Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 16:04:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23490; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:55:34 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Corona and Positrino-Negatrino Pairs Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:07:35 -0500 Message-ID: <20000322000735171.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"PA5nw3.0.yk5.rl0su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >With a 3.0E6 volt/meter field around a conductor the Corona phenomenon is >initiated in air at 760 mm Hg, but not in Dry N2. > >Other Electron Affinities: > >H 0.75 >OH 1.83 >O 1.46 >N not stable >Pd 0.56 >Pt 2.13 >K 0.50 >K2 0.50 >Ag 1.30 > >Regards, Frederick Hi Fred, Does the electron affinity play a role or show a correlation in the material's ability to act as a recombination catalyst? Would recombination itself possibly be responsible for the LL's getting knocked into the freestate and annihilating And when you say that N is not stable, do you have any experience with that? Would it be different in a low pressure atmosphere? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 16:34:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24611; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:31:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:43:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20000322004314171.AAA286 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"uw-yy.0.N06.lH1su" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve writes: >The major technical hurdle is still how to detect >6 eV photons inside a >tiny bubble because such photons get absorbed by the water surrounding the >bubble. Besides figuring out a mechanical way to get a photomultiplier >inside a bubble, the only way I can think of to detect these photons is to >introduce another molecule inert to the rest of the process that absorbs >appropriate EUV wavelengths inside the bubble and re-emits them at longer >wavelengths that penetrate the water. Tricky stuff! There are some chemicals that have been added that respond to the EUV spectrum, and bring it into the visible spectrum. I have the names buried _really_ deeply in my notes, so that has been done, just not by me. By the time I learned of them, I had stopped running experiments. Suslick would know what they were, I'm sure, off the top of his head. >My understanding of the weakness in current sonofusion hypotheses is that >there isn't a plausible way to heat the bubble center to temperatures where >fusion can place. Hydrino formation may provide such a mechanism, as well >as a way to reduce Coloumbic repulsion between nucleii. > >Any comment from the sonoluminescence experts? > >-Steve You might want to discuss this with Dr. Suslick or Putterman, as Putterman has already claimed the possibility of fusion in a patent. Suslick would be more the one to ask about the K2CO3 as he is more of a chemist. He also is a Nobel laureate, so you might ask him what he thinks of Mills' cosmology. Fred Sparber has some good ideas about what might happen when cavitating K2CO3 as well. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 16:50:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05171; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:48:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:48:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF87713310D mailserver.omnikron.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:46:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Resent-Message-ID: <"6jPHU1.0.eG1.IX1su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] Steven Florek said: > >each corresponding to a different phase of the cycle. These would be >difficult to detect due to the extremely short periods involved (fractions >of the 50 picosecond cycle), but we could settle for simple time-independent >measurement of the high energy spectrum inside a bubble for now. > >The difference between sonoluminescence with light and heavy water might be >the presence of the fusion cycle in heavy water and the lack of it in light >water. Obviously we would expect to find helium and tritium in the >by-products if the fusion cycle exists. > >The major technical hurdle is still how to detect >6 eV photons inside a >tiny bubble because such photons get absorbed by the water surrounding the >bubble. Besides figuring out a mechanical way to get a photomultiplier >inside a bubble ***{If memory serves, EUV passes through some types of glass. (Quartz glass?) If so, then place a window of that type of glass in the wall of the Griggs Hydrosonic pump, and place your measuring instrument on the outside surface of the glass. Result: you will be able to measure the frequencies of emissions from the cavitation bubbles that collapse on the surface of the glass itself. --MJ}*** , the only way I can think of to detect these photons is to >introduce another molecule inert to the rest of the process that absorbs >appropriate EUV wavelengths inside the bubble and re-emits them at longer >wavelengths that penetrate the water. Tricky stuff! > >My understanding of the weakness in current sonofusion hypotheses is that >there isn't a plausible way to heat the bubble center to temperatures where >fusion can place. Hydrino formation may provide such a mechanism, as well >as a way to reduce Coloumbic repulsion between nucleii. > >Any comment from the sonoluminescence experts? > >-Steve __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 17:41:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18580; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:38:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:38:57 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133112 mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:42:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"T0SDP1.0.CY4.mG2su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones writes: ***{If memory serves, EUV passes through some types of glass. (Quartz glass?) If so, then place a window of that type of glass in the wall of the Griggs Hydrosonic pump, and place your measuring instrument on the outside surface of the glass. Result: you will be able to measure the frequencies of emissions from the cavitation bubbles that collapse on the surface of the glass itself. --MJ}*** That would work if the physical interaction with the glass didn't kill the sonoluminescent effect within the bubble by changing the symmetrical geometry of the bubble, which I fear it might. Interestingly, I believe that sort of glass is used in BLP's reactor chambers in order to view these photons. Your method is worth a try, however. I was thinking the experiment would be done with single-bubble sonoluminescence (SBSL) rather than the multiple-bubble variety, since it's more controllable and yields more intense light. You still have the same problem with say, a probe entering the bubble because it may disrupt the effect. Maybe a symmetrical array of probes could be designed that maintained the symmetry of the bubble (eg, six probes in a cubic arrangement) while letting us measure the bubble's internal environment. Combining the ideas, maybe SBSL could be accomplished inside a hemispherical bubble attached to a window of the type you described. That would be ideal, but I don't know enough about how SBSL is accomplished to know if a hemisphere-like configuration exists. -Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 17:48:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07954; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:43:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:43:17 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Positrino-Negatrino Pairs in Brown's Gas Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:42:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <349gds4mj29qnv9qb3mvdn4eekmo2tuhfu 4ax.com> References: <015c01bf931f$896aa480$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <015c01bf931f$896aa480$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA07869 Resent-Message-ID: <"dYqAX.0.7y1.mK2su" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:22:56 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >If this is the case, the enormous volume reduction and heat output when the gas is burned can be >attibuted to annihilation of the Positrino-Negatrino Pairs and rebonding/condensation >of the H2O molecules. [snip] In that case, if the hydrogen and oxygen "contaminants" are first separated from the BG, then the remaining gas should still burn in an argon atmosphere. That might make an interesting experiment. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 17:56:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10068; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:53:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:53:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01e201bf93a9$87470d80$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000322000735171.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Corona and Positrino-Negatrino Pairs Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:50:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"SAdvG.0.5T2.DU2su" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Corona and Positrino-Negatrino Pairs Knuke wrote: > Fred writes: > >With a 3.0E6 volt/meter field around a conductor the Corona phenomenon is > >initiated in air at 760 mm Hg, but not in Dry N2. > > > >Other Electron Affinities: > > > >H 0.75 > >OH 1.83 > >O 1.46 > >N not stable > >Pd 0.56 > >Pt 2.13 > >K 0.50 > >K2 0.50 > >Ag 1.30 > > > >Regards, Frederick > > Hi Fred, > > Does the electron affinity play a role or show a correlation in the > material's ability to act as a recombination catalyst? If you mean recombination/annihilation of LLs, a molecule that has a high electron affinity for a Negatrino would leave an attractive negative charge/affinity for a Positrino at the "other end", thus act as a dipole. OTOH the Radius, R of each LL = kq^2/(Eo + E binding) so they shouldn't annihilate as long as their radii are different. Then again the 0.5 ev electron affinity of the neutral K atom (dissolved in water or in a gas) could "hold" a Negatrino, and exhange it with an H atom which has an electron affinity of 0.75 ev, and since it the H only has the one regular electron it could put the Negatrino in a "Fractional Orbit" all the way down to a radius of ~ 3.0 Fermi with the regular electron still attached due to a stronger electron affinity. Thus a "Hydrino" is born. :-) >Would recombination itself possibly be responsible for the LL's getting knocked into the > freestate and annihilating? Possibly. >And when you say that N is not stable, do you > have any experience with that? Would it be different in a low pressure > atmosphere? Dry N2 (oil pumped) is used in High Voltage "Tanks" to hold down Corona. Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 18:07:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA27940; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:06:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:06:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:06:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <33.2baa22c.26093615 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <33.2baa22c.26093615 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA27912 Resent-Message-ID: <"Kdqc-.0.Tq6.Zg2su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:31:17 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: [snip] >Yes, there IS some copper in the glow tube in the form of a brass contact >button at the very top of the glow tube at the end of the anode support. >This region of the tube does not get very hot during runs, maybe up to >80C or so. No other copper or copper alloys anywhere else. [snip] Did this bead get washed with acid at some point in the cleaning process? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 18:09:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA27481; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:04:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:04:56 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:04:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF87713310C mailserver.omnikron.com> In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF87713310C mailserver.omnikron.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA27421 Resent-Message-ID: <"f-afo.0.Ej6.7f2su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:56:24 -0800, Florek, Steven wrote: [snip] >Bubble collapse compresses the mixture, heating it to disproportionation >temperature (disproportionation is Mills' term for the hydrino formation >process). [snip] Actually, disproportionation is the process whereby two hydrinos react with one another, resulting in a hydrino further shrunken than the original two, and a hydrogen ion with free electron. So this process actually halves the number of hydrinos present - i.e. converts two into one (but nevertheless releases energy in the process). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 18:17:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31224; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:15:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:15:44 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:15:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF87713310D mailserver.omnikron.com> In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF87713310D mailserver.omnikron.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA31200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q88uD2.0.ld7.Fp2su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:29:41 -0800, Florek, Steven wrote: > >Vince Cockeram writes: > > >>Hmm...Steve, I wonder if anyone has tried the experiment with a, say 0.6 >molar >>solution of K2CO3, or any of the other water soluble potassium compounds. > >I have not seen that, but I only really started thinking about this today. >Apparently the introduction of noble gasses increases the effect, >particularly argon--I don't know why that would be. The second ionisation energy of argon is 27.63 eV. This is .4 eV more the the energy hole required for Hydrino formation, so an extra .4 eV supplied by thermal energy would ensure that Ar was a usable Hydrino catalyst. 0.4 eV implies a temperature of 3300 K, which should be easily attainable in an SL bubble. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 18:58:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10128; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:54:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:54:59 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133115 mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:58:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"oSaI-2.0.AU2.2O3su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good news and bad news for my SL conjecture: The good news is hemispheric SBSL has indeed been achieved: http://www.ben2.ucla.edu/~gaw/sono.html The bad news is the same research indicates that SL is seen in a variety of liquids and seems to be entirely related to the presence of heavy noble gases (argon, xenon, and krypton specifically). While some of these can be hydrino catalysts, I can't explain why they should be the only ones that create SL. Particularly if H was eliminated :^) -Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 20:20:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06990; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:14:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:14:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <33.2baa22c.26093615 aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:14:24 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"o1O9m.0.8j1.iY4su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - >Did this bead get washed with acid at some point in the cleaning process? That's what I was going to ask, but I went bodysurfing instead. :) I bet that's it if it gets washed. I associate the blue color more with the alloys and other chemicals in brass - copper usually just comes up green. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 20:44:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA16528; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:42:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:42:27 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:54:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20000322045428953.AAA315 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"IlXc53.0.524.oy4su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick writes: >I bet that's it if it gets washed. I associate the blue color more >with the alloys and other chemicals in brass - copper usually just >comes up green. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI I was going to say the same thing, but decided to twirl my mustache instead. Plus, if the amount of blue crystal were significant, then you would expect to see some obvious pitting of the brass. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 21:44:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02729; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:42:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:42:06 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Corona and Positrino-Negatrino Pairs Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:54:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20000322055408828.AAA256 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"GUF6U.0.Vg.jq5su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >> Does the electron affinity play a role or show a correlation in the >> material's ability to act as a recombination catalyst? Fred wrote: >If you mean recombination/annihilation of LLs, a molecule that has a high electron affinity >for a Negatrino would leave an attractive negative charge/affinity for a Positrino at the >"other end", >thus act as a dipole. OTOH the Radius, R of each LL = kq^2/(Eo + E binding) so they shouldn't >annihilate as long as their radii are different. No, basically, I am trying to understand what makes a good recombination catalyst. It seems that K and Pd are not that far apart in the electron affinity scale. Another thing that I'm wondering is how recombination affects the speed of the molecular collision. Also, I'm wondering that since Pd has become so expensive, if there were another way or a better way to do recombination. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 21 22:13:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA11528; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:12:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:12:10 -0800 Message-ID: <20000322061205.24946.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:12:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ztrUg1.0.2q2.vG6su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote; > location of the K and so on. If the effect turns on I will know it not > by temperature increase but by a sudden drop in tube current. > Remember when this happened current dropped from 0.065 amp > down to 0.012 amp and the white hot glow began at the same > time. This is all puzzling! For one, when the power dropped to 5 W, V not only was I small, but so was V. What I mean is, your power controller should have increased V when the power dropped, but it didn't, at least not according to the I & V numbers Vince tabulated. We know the DC power supply can go up over 1 kV. So, I am puzzled that the AC power went up (via the light bulb test Vince described), but the DC power and voltage did not. I think there might be a problem in the DC power supply or somewhere. > I think I did see something as yet unexplained. At the time of the > temperature runaway the tip of the cathode and the quartz cathode > sleeve were at white heat, almost like a welders arc, when I looked > through the 1/4 inch viewport in the heat sensor assembly. If the cathode was at white heat, it must have been emitting electrons thermionically. This ought to have made it easier to sustain a 30 W discharge. Again, I am led to suspect something outside the discharge tube. Then, there is the issue that the temperature continued to rise after the power dropped... Could this have been from built up heat from the previous 30 W interval which hadn't had time to get out to the thermocouple yet? The temperature still hadn't leveled off by the time the power dropped to 5 W. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 01:47:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA20380; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:46:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:46:00 -0800 Message-ID: <021001bf93b1$5a448e40$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <015c01bf931f$896aa480$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> <349gds4mj29qnv9qb3mvdn4eekmo2tuhfu@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Positrino-Negatrino Pairs in Brown's Gas Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:47:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"OcJ5W.0.D-4.NP9su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Positrino-Negatrino Pairs in Brown's Gas Robin wrote: > On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:22:56 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >If this is the case, the enormous volume reduction and heat output when the gas is burned can be > >attibuted to annihilation of the Positrino-Negatrino Pairs and rebonding/condensation > >of the H2O molecules. > [snip] > In that case, if the hydrogen and oxygen "contaminants" are first separated > from the BG, then the remaining gas should still burn in an argon > atmosphere. > That might make an interesting experiment. Sure would, you could use a molecular sieve to bleed off the H2. Some clay pipes are "open" to H2, with modest pressures. Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 05:17:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA20435; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:16:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:16:53 -0800 Message-ID: <022f01bf9409$100d8040$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Water Vapor Plasma, Add K2CO3? Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:15:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF93C5.F8519600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"QyNj62.0.C_4.5VCsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF93C5.F8519600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abtox's water vapor sterilizer might make "Hydrinos", with or without Positrinos-Negatrinos, if K2CO3 is added. http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05753196__ Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF93C5.F8519600 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Plasma water vapor sterilizer apparatus (US5753196).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Plasma water vapor sterilizer apparatus (US5753196).url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=3DUS05753196__ [DOC#6] BASEURL=3Dhttp://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/patents.ibm.com/chemical;sz=3D468= x60;cat=3Dresearch;ord=3D3661499? [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=3DUS05753196__ Modified=3D807FCE510894BF017A ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF93C5.F8519600-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 06:19:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA03625; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:18:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:18:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000322091658.0079de30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:16:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133112 mailserver.omnikron .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LL3Fn1.0.Uu.ZODsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florek, Steven wrote: >Combining the ideas, maybe SBSL could be accomplished inside a hemispherical >bubble attached to a window of the type you described. That would be ideal, >but I don't know enough about how SBSL is accomplished to know if a >hemisphere-like configuration exists. According to Stringham and George, a bubble that forms on a surface will often collapse into the surface, injecting plasma into the surface. It looks a little like a high speed virus. The plasma is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, which is why metal which has been loaded with this method turns blue (with oxygen), as Ed Storms pointed out. An object in contact with the bubble will definitely alter the bubble behavior. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 06:49:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13397; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:46:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:46:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <024501bf9415$9e9433c0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:44:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"mM0Ar3.0.FH3.MpDsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Aqueous Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) effects the decomposition of Hydrogen Peroxide (HO-OH) to H2O + O2: 2 HO-OH + ( K+) + (MnO4-) <---> 2 H2O + O2 + Heat The V2 Rocket used NaMnO4 as the H2O2 Decomposition Catalyst. K2CO3aq can be mixed with KMnO4aq and the H2O2aq can be added (slowly). Will this produce "Hydrinos" and/or "Hydrino Hydride" or such, as well as H2O + O2? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 09:09:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05298; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:50:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:50:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:48:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Cc: hydrino eGroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_9blI3.0.OI1.OdFsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm getting ready to wind the Ni wire cathode for my hifi Mills electrolysis cell replication (described in Mill book, Sept 1996 issue, p. 469 ff). Adhering to his 1 cm anode-cathode separation and scaling things roughly according to his drawings, I'm going to have a cathode coil that has an ID of about 1.1 inches and a length of about 1.27 inches. To get the specified 24 meters of 0.38 mm dia Ni wire into such a coil, it will take somewhere around 800 close-packed turns in about 9 or 10 layers! I'm presently planning to wind this coil on a form that has 4 axial slots in the surface so that, after the coil is wound, I can make 4 wireform ties (using the same Ni wire) around the coil to make it hold its shape...sorta. I expect the coil to "relax" after it is removed from the form and that's probably a good thing, since it will create some space for electrolyte to flow between the strands of wire. I have received the Dewars, the Pt wire ($$) for the anode, and the K and Na reagents. I also purchased a Rb salt for a second control...i.e. the alkali metal on the other side of K from Na. I have designed and fabricated a polypropylene Dewar cap that seals to the Dewar via a large fat O-ring, provides tiny O-ring seals for all the teflon-jacketed wires, provides a tubulation for the electrolysis gases, and still provides the same 3/4" thick Styrofoam insulation that Mills used in his cell. I still have to rig up an electrolysis power supply that can provide the 600 Hz square wave power, and construct the magnetic stirrer drives, and construct the 5 thermistor temperature probes (3 in the active cell, 2 in the reference cell), and get the whole shooting match running under computer data acquisition. Then comes the calorimetry calibration and finally the experiment. I'm sending this (and future) progress reports to Mills by posting them on the new BLP discussion group of which Mills is a member. Neither he nor Bill Good has contacted me since his initial positive indication but I figure they're busy frying some real big fish right now. Hopefully, if they see me going astray, they'll offer corrective advice. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 09:18:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29164; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:13:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:13:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133112 mailserver.omnikron.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:12:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Resent-Message-ID: <"rPSn_3.0.c77.3zFsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones writes: > >***{If memory serves, EUV passes through some types of glass. (Quartz >glass?) If so, then place a window of that type of glass in the wall of the >Griggs Hydrosonic pump, and place your measuring instrument on the outside >surface of the glass. Result: you will be able to measure the frequencies >of emissions from the cavitation bubbles that collapse on the surface of >the glass itself. --MJ}*** > >That would work if the physical interaction with the glass didn't kill the >sonoluminescent effect within the bubble by changing the symmetrical >geometry of the bubble, which I fear it might. ***{Cavitation is a fairly well studied phenomenon because it tends to damage metal parts. That damage occurs precisely when cavitation voids collapse on a surface. Many years ago, for example, I saw a poorly designed steel propeller hanging on the wall in a bait shop as a curiosity. It was shiny and rust free, but had been so heavily damaged by cavitation that it looked like it was made of sponge. Indeed, at a used bookstore I once saw a fairly large textbook which was devoted to techniques for designing parts in ways that would avoid pitting by cavitation. Unfortunately, at that time I was not interested in the subject, and didn't buy it. My point in mentioning this is simply that there is *a lot* of information indicating that when cavitation voids collapse on solid surfaces, they continue to generate enormous overpressures. The pits which they leave behind prove that they did not lose their sting. --MJ}*** Interestingly, I believe >that sort of glass is used in BLP's reactor chambers in order to view these >photons. Your method is worth a try, however. > >I was thinking the experiment would be done with single-bubble >sonoluminescence (SBSL) rather than the multiple-bubble variety, since it's >more controllable and yields more intense light. You still have the same >problem with say, a probe entering the bubble because it may disrupt the >effect. Maybe a symmetrical array of probes could be designed that >maintained the symmetry of the bubble (eg, six probes in a cubic >arrangement) while letting us measure the bubble's internal environment. > >Combining the ideas, maybe SBSL could be accomplished inside a hemispherical >bubble attached to a window of the type you described. That would be ideal, >but I don't know enough about how SBSL is accomplished to know if a >hemisphere-like configuration exists. > >-Steve __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 10:19:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17456; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:17:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:17:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:22:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: What is Single Bubble Sonoluminescence? In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133112 mailserver.omnikron.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kw8h5.0.bG4.fuGsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How do you realize the single bubble Sono-L ? I am interested in the experimental set up. Thanks, John On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Florek, Steven wrote: > > Mitchell Jones writes: > > ***{If memory serves, EUV passes through some types of glass. (Quartz > glass?) If so, then place a window of that type of glass in the wall of the > Griggs Hydrosonic pump, and place your measuring instrument on the outside > surface of the glass. Result: you will be able to measure the frequencies > of emissions from the cavitation bubbles that collapse on the surface of > the glass itself. --MJ}*** > > That would work if the physical interaction with the glass didn't kill the > sonoluminescent effect within the bubble by changing the symmetrical > geometry of the bubble, which I fear it might. Interestingly, I believe > that sort of glass is used in BLP's reactor chambers in order to view these > photons. Your method is worth a try, however. > > I was thinking the experiment would be done with single-bubble > sonoluminescence (SBSL) rather than the multiple-bubble variety, since it's > more controllable and yields more intense light. You still have the same > problem with say, a probe entering the bubble because it may disrupt the > effect. Maybe a symmetrical array of probes could be designed that > maintained the symmetry of the bubble (eg, six probes in a cubic > arrangement) while letting us measure the bubble's internal environment. > > Combining the ideas, maybe SBSL could be accomplished inside a hemispherical > bubble attached to a window of the type you described. That would be ideal, > but I don't know enough about how SBSL is accomplished to know if a > hemisphere-like configuration exists. > > -Steve > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 12:02:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15459; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:56:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:56:54 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: What is Single Bubble Sonoluminescence? Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:08:41 -0500 Message-ID: <20000322200841234.AAA271 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"70SvT.0.Tn3.5MIsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John writes: > > How do you realize the single bubble Sono-L ? > > I am interested in the experimental set up. > > Thanks, > > John The basic successful SBSL experimental setup consisted of a spherical quartz glass flask with a transducer glued to one side or the bottom. A frequency generator and amplifier drove the transducer to the right freq. and decibel level to produce a bubble that would collapse in the center of the flask. Sometimes a hot wire was used to initiate the formation bubble, but that was really not necessary. This setup was successfully replicated in many high school science labs. Joseph Hiller, who was mentioned earlier, had a great website that showed exactly how to do this, but the website no longer exists. My guess is that he is now working in private industry, and was asked to take it down. Additionally, noble gases were sometimes introduced to the water to enhance the visibility of light flash, and glycerin was also added in some setups. The flash of light known as sonoluminescence is not the most important feature of the cavitation phenomena, but it did stimulate enough interest in the subject to bring attention and some funding for some people for the study of it. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 12:13:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19755; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:09:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:09:41 -0800 Message-ID: <38D92912.FE79C88 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:12:17 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I80rg2.0.Xq4.5YIsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > I'm getting ready to wind the Ni wire cathode for my hifi Mills > electrolysis cell replication (described in Mill book, Sept 1996 issue, p. > 469 ff). Adhering to his 1 cm anode-cathode separation and scaling things > roughly according to his drawings, I'm going to have a cathode coil that > has an ID of about 1.1 inches and a length of about 1.27 inches. To get > the specified 24 meters of 0.38 mm dia Ni wire into such a coil, it will > take somewhere around 800 close-packed turns in about 9 or 10 layers! As you are aware but Mills was not, only the outer layer will experience any electrolytic action. With sufficient space between the windings, you might get some action at the second layer but not much. This demonstrates the problem when trying to duplicate an initial design which was used before the apparatus was understood by the inventor. Hopefully, Mills has explored the variables and can suggest ways to improve the design. If not, I suggest any success or failure with this design will be based on just plain luck. As you know, many people have duplicated heat production using Ni of various forms, some of which work and some that produce nothing. The only difference between their work and the Mills method is an application of pulsed DC. I have a hard time understanding how this can make a difference. > > > I'm presently planning to wind this coil on a form that has 4 axial slots > in the surface so that, after the coil is wound, I can make 4 wireform ties > (using the same Ni wire) around the coil to make it hold its shape...sorta. > I expect the coil to "relax" after it is removed from the form and that's > probably a good thing, since it will create some space for electrolyte to > flow between the strands of wire. > > I have received the Dewars, the Pt wire ($$) for the anode, and the K and > Na reagents. I also purchased a Rb salt for a second control...i.e. the > alkali metal on the other side of K from Na. > > I have designed and fabricated a polypropylene Dewar cap that seals to the > Dewar via a large fat O-ring, provides tiny O-ring seals for all the > teflon-jacketed wires, provides a tubulation for the electrolysis gases, > and still provides the same 3/4" thick Styrofoam insulation that Mills used > in his cell. Scott, I strongly suggest that in addition to measuring delta T between the fluid and the outside of the dewar, you also measure delta T between the inner surface of the lid and its outer surface, for both the active and reference cell. Only this type of measurement will give you an accurate measurement of heat production without altering the basic design. I also suggest that use of a reference cell can not be trusted because its characteristics can not be made identical to the active cell. If you are interested, I can discuss this problem with you privately. > > Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 13:23:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09845; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:20:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:20:18 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <5b.37a9028.260a92e5 aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:19:33 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"GQUPe.0.lP2.IaJsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/21/00 10:14:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > Vince wrote; > > > location of the K and so on. If the effect turns on I will know it not > > by temperature increase but by a sudden drop in tube current. > > Remember when this happened current dropped from 0.065 amp > > down to 0.012 amp and the white hot glow began at the same > > time. > > This is all puzzling! > For one, when the power dropped to 5 W, V not only was > I small, but so was V. What I mean is, your power controller should have > increased V when the power dropped, but it didn't, at least not according to > the I & V numbers Vince tabulated. It tried to Mike, as evidenced by the 100W lamp in parallel with the HV transformer primary windings. Lamp was at full brilliance. I even switched the HV supply over to manual control (the variac) and had that full on, still only 5 watts to the tube. I switched back to auto and still the same reading, on both the Texmate wattmeter and the two backup voltmeter and ammeter. BTW, the Texmate meter has a function where I can display either input 1 (volts), or input 2 (amps) and both displayed the same readings as the backup meters. Normally the Texmate displays the I x V reading of the two inputs. Big question here is: "Why did temperature increase rapidly for 20 minutes AFTER the power went down from 30 watts to 5 watts"? Looking at a graph of a previous run, 031600, I see evidence of this happening twice during the run, first at T+15 where the Pin leveled off at 15 watts for 5 minutes, slowly climbed to 18 watts for 10 minutes, leveled at 18 watts for 10 minutes and then leveled at 20 watts. During this 30 minute period the temperature climbed from ~20C to ~418C in 10 minutes, dropped to 340 for next 10 minutes, leveled at ~340 for next 10 minutes, then dropped again when the Pin went to 20 watts. Temperature slowly climbed to ~340C over the next 35 minutes. At that time, T+80, Pin suddenly dropped to ~15 watts for 10 minutes and temperature climbed from ~340C to ~420 in 10 minutes until Pin went back to 20 watts. Temperature dropped back to ~350C over the next 15 minutes with Pin at a nice steady 20 watts. I just don't know what's going on here. > We know the DC power supply can go up over 1 kV. > So, I am puzzled that the AC power went up (via the light bulb test > Vince described), but the DC power and voltage did not. I think there might > be a problem in the DC power supply or somewhere. I triple checked everything in the power supply, connections, diodes, caps ect. and it all checked out OK. Even ran a load test with a resistor bank I built for the purpose and results agreed with all previous diagnostics. > > > I think I did see something as yet unexplained. At the time of the > > temperature runaway the tip of the cathode and the quartz cathode > > sleeve were at white heat, almost like a welders arc, when I looked > > through the 1/4 inch viewport in the heat sensor assembly. > > If the cathode was at white heat, it must have been emitting electrons > thermionically. This ought to have made it easier to sustain a 30 W > discharge. Again, I am led to suspect something outside the discharge tube. So am I but so far have found nothing. > > Then, there is the issue that the temperature continued to rise after the > power dropped... Could this have been from built up heat from the previous > 30 W interval which hadn't had time to get out to the thermocouple yet? > The temperature still hadn't leveled off by the time the power dropped to 5 W. No, I don't think so. The thermal delay is on the order of about a 30 second delay. IOW, if I am running at say a steady 10 watt input at thermal equilibrium and increase power to 20 watts, I see the temperature begin to increase after about a 30 second delay. About the same (40 seconds) for a reduction in input power. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Hydrogen Potassium Glow Discharge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 13:23:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09792; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:20:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:20:13 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <16.1f0166d.260a92e1 aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:19:29 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"v20ng2.0.wO2.CaJsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/21/00 6:08:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:31:17 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > [snip] > > > > ....a brass contact button at the very top of the glow tube > > at the end of the anode support. > Did this bead get washed with acid at some point in the cleaning process? No acid used on the anode. First I polish with a fine rubber grit tip with the Dremel tool, rinse in distilled water, followed by denatured alcohol final rinse in acetone and blow dry w/compressed air. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > The one time I saw the blue crud was the only time 30% HCL was used after the run was over. The interesting color was what prompted me to acid wash. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Hydrogen Potassium Glow Discharge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 13:26:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10571; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:21:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:21:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:19:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38D92912.FE79C88 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jc40Y.0.4b2.AbJsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >As you know, many people have duplicated heat production using Ni of various >forms, some of which work and some that produce nothing. The only difference >between their work and the Mills method is an application of pulsed DC. I >have a hard time understanding how this can make a difference. I have always assumed that if this works is because a cathode cannot deload much between pulses. CF is not driven by electrolysis per se; it is driven by loading, and loading or deloading occur slowly. Some people, including Notoya and Mizuno, have hypothesized that cold fusion is dependent upon electrochemical action and conditions, especially high overpotential, but you can cause the CF reaction with gas loading and other non electrolysis methods, so I guess you do not need overpotential. Once a cathode reaches sufficient loading, you can push in new hydrogen intermittently, as the other hydrogen slowly leaks out. I suppose it is something like a closet in my daughter's room: it is filled with basketballs, toys, books and old clothes, and you have throw the stuff back in intermittently because it keeps spilling out, but you don't have to throw something every second. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 13:34:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13883; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:30:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:30:44 -0800 Message-ID: <009501bf9445$9ce87ec0$5b627dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: References: <16.1f0166d.260a92e1 aol.com> Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:28:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"RsY5k1.0.mO3.3kJsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, > > > Did this bead get washed with acid at some point in the cleaning process? > > No acid used on the anode. First I polish with a fine rubber grit tip with > the > Dremel tool, rinse in distilled water, followed by denatured alcohol final > rinse > in acetone and blow dry w/compressed air. > > I hesitate to point out the obvious, but air compressors put oil in their air. Edward Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax (603) 224-5975 ewall infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 13:43:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20032; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:41:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:41:03 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:40:15 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"6VT-3.0.wu4.ltJsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/22/00 1:23:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, VCockeram aol.com writes: > Looking at a graph of a previous run, 031600, I see evidence of this > happening twice during the run, first at T+15 where the Pin leveled off > at 15 watts for 5 minutes, slowly climbed to 18 watts for 10 minutes, Direct link to above referenced graph: Click here: Graph of Run 031600 Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Hydrogen Potassium Glow Discharge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 13:44:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20416; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:41:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:41:52 -0800 Message-ID: <38D93D9F.E6A0666C verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:39:43 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg , vortex Subject: New Class off Materials with negative Eps and Mu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7Zsr91.0.s-4.WuJsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (Repost) http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mccomposite.htm They say the material is composed of copper rings. Not so unusual. - hamdi ucar UCSD PHYSICISTS DEVELOP NEW CLASS OF COMPOSITE MATERIALS WITH 'REVERSED' PHYSICAL PROPERTIES NEVER BEFORE SEEN Minneapolis, MN-Physicists at the University of California, San Diego have produced a new class of composite materials with unusual physical properties that scientists theorized might be possible, but have never before been able to produce in nature. The remarkable achievement, detailed in a paper that will appear in a forthcoming issue of Physical Review Letters, was announced here today at a meeting of the American Physical Society. The UCSD physicists said they expect their discovery to open up a n ew subdiscipline within physics and produce an array of commercial applications for this material, on which the university has applied for a patent. "Composite materials like this are built on a totally new concept," said the two co-leaders of the UCSD team, Sheldon Schultz and David R. Smith, who announced their discovery at a news conference. "While they obey the laws of physics, they are predicted to behave totally different from normal materials and should find interesting applications." The unusual property of this new class of materials is essentially its ability to reverse many of the physical properties that govern the behavior of ordinary materials. One such property is the Doppler effect, which makes a train whistle sound higher in pitch as it approaches and lower in pitch as it recedes. According to Maxwell's equations, which describe the relationship between magnetic and electric fields, microwave radiation or light would show the opposite effect in this new class of materials, sh ifting to lower frequencies as a source approaches and to higher frequencies as it recedes. Similarly, Maxwell's equations further suggest that lenses that would normally disperse electromagnetic radiation would instead focus it within this composite material. This is because Snell's law, which describes the angle of refraction caused by the cha nge in velocity of light and other waves through lenses, water and other types of ordinary material, is expected to be exactly opposite within this composite. "If these effects turn out to be possible at optical frequencies, this material would have the crazy property that a flashlight shining on a slab can focus the light at a point on the other side," said Schultz. "There's no way you can do that with just a sheet of ordinary material." He notes that the development of this new class of materials, which was financed by the National Science Foundation and the Department of Energy, is entirely consistent with the laws of physics and was predicted as a possibility in 1968 by a Russian theor ist, V.G. Veselago. "But until now," Schultz adds, "no one had the material, so it couldn't be verified." Underlying the reversal of the Doppler effect, Snell's law, and Cerenkov radiation (radiation by charged particles moving through a medium) is that this new material exhibits a reversal of one of the "right-hand rules" of physics which describe a relation ship between the electric and magnetic fields and the direction of their wave velocity. The new materials are known by the UCSD team colloquially as "left-handed materials," after a term coined by Veselago, because they reverse this relationship. What that means is physically counterintuitive-pulses of electromagnetic radiation moving throug h the material in one direction are composed of constituent waves moving in the opposite direction. The UCSD physicists emphasized that while they believe their new class of composites will be shown to reverse Snell's law, the specific composite they produced will not do so at visible-light frequencies. Instead, it is now limited to transmitting microwa ve radiation at frequencies of 4 to 7 Gigahertz-a range somewhere between the operation of household microwave ovens (3.3 Gigahertz) and military radars (10 Gigahertz). However, Schultz said the UCSD team will soon be attempting to verify that a composite constructed on similar principles will be able to focus and disperse microwaves in exactly the opposite manner as normal lenses. "We did not do this experiment yet," he said. "But this is what the equations predict. Physicists will understand that if our data presented in our paper are correct, given Maxwell's equations, then this will be the result." The composite constructed by the UCSD team-which also consisted of Willie J. Padilla, David C. Vier, and Syrus C. Nemat-Nasser-was produced from a series of thin copper rings and ordinary copper wire strung parallel to the rings. It is an example of a new class of materials scientists call "metamaterials." "Even though it is composed of only copper wires and copper rings, the arrangement has an effective magnetic response to microwaves that has never been demonstrated before," said Schultz. The idea for the new composite came from Smith, building on the work of John Pendry of Imperial College, London. In 1996, Pendry described a way of using ordinary copper wires to create a material with the property physicists call "negative electric permi ttivity." Electric permittivity-often referred to as the "dielectric constant"-is the response of a material to electromagnetic radiation. "When you take a material like plastic, glass or sapphire and you shine microwaves onto it, you can characterize how the microwaves going through it will behave by a parameter called electric permittivity," explained Schultz. Most known materials in natur e have a positive electric permittivity. Pendry also recently suggested a way of using copper rings to make a material with negative magnetic permeability at microwave frequencies. Just about all of the magnetic materials in nature, those that respond to magnetic rather than electric fields, hav e what physicists call a "positive magnetic permeability." What's unusual about the new class of materials produced by the UCSD team is that it simultaneously has a negative electric permittivity and a negative magnetic permeability, a combination of properties never before seen in a natural or man-made material. "And the interesting thing is that it's produced with no magnetic material," said Schultz. "It's all done with copper." "The bottom line," said Smith, "is that this material-this metamaterial, at frequencies where both the permittivity and permeability are negative, behaves according to a left-handed rule, rather than a right-handed rule." # # # David Smith can be reached March 20-22 in Minneapolis at 612-331-1900. Sheldon Schultz can be reached March 20-23 in Minneapolis at 612-333-4545 Messages for the UCSD scientists can also be left at the APS meeting pressroom at 612-335-6735, 6736, 6737, 6738. Pressroom Hours: Mon.-Wed. 8AM to 5PM, Thurs. 8AM to noon. The news conference will take place at 1 p.m. March 21 at the Minneapolis Conventi on Center, Room 203B. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 14:14:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00377; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:13:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:13:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000322170433.0081c100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:04:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38D92912.FE79C88 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8LTta.0.k5.xLKsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:12 PM 3/22/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > >Scott Little wrote: > >> I'm getting ready to wind the Ni wire cathode for my hifi Mills >> electrolysis cell replication (described in Mill book, Sept 1996 issue, p. >> 469 ff). Adhering to his 1 cm anode-cathode separation and scaling things >> roughly according to his drawings, I'm going to have a cathode coil that >> has an ID of about 1.1 inches and a length of about 1.27 inches. To get >> the specified 24 meters of 0.38 mm dia Ni wire into such a coil, it will >> take somewhere around 800 close-packed turns in about 9 or 10 layers! > >As you are aware but Mills was not, only the outer layer will experience any >electrolytic action. With sufficient space between the windings, you might >get some action at the second layer but not much. This demonstrates the >problem when trying to duplicate an initial design which was used before the >apparatus was understood by the inventor. Hopefully, Mills has explored the >variables and can suggest ways to improve the design. If not, I suggest any >success or failure with this design will be based on just plain luck. > >As you know, many people have duplicated heat production using Ni of various >forms, some of which work and some that produce nothing. The only difference >between their work and the Mills method is an application of pulsed DC. I >have a hard time understanding how this can make a difference. 1) There are many differences between several reports and studies. 2) Regarding the internal electric field intensities; consult any good text basic principles. 3) From a material point of view: There are differences between nickel batches just as there are for palladium batches. Without using the optimal operating point method, it is difficult, possible not possible, to compare differences between materials OR methods of loading. 4) The reasons for the differences are kinetic and associated with loading; see e.g. Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", and Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300; Swartz, M., 1994, "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode" Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77). ------------------------------------------------------- >> I'm presently planning to wind this coil on a form that has 4 axial slots >> in the surface so that, after the coil is wound, I can make 4 wireform ties >> (using the same Ni wire) around the coil to make it hold its shape...sorta. >> I expect the coil to "relax" after it is removed from the form and that's >> probably a good thing, since it will create some space for electrolyte to >> flow between the strands of wire. >> >> I have received the Dewars, the Pt wire ($$) for the anode, and the K and >> Na reagents. I also purchased a Rb salt for a second control...i.e. the >> alkali metal on the other side of K from Na. >> >> I have designed and fabricated a polypropylene Dewar cap that seals to the >> Dewar via a large fat O-ring, provides tiny O-ring seals for all the >> teflon-jacketed wires, provides a tubulation for the electrolysis gases, >> and still provides the same 3/4" thick Styrofoam insulation that Mills used >> in his cell. > >Scott, I strongly suggest that in addition to measuring delta T between the >fluid and the outside of the dewar, you also measure delta T between the inner >surface of the lid and its outer surface, for both the active and reference >cell. Only this type of measurement will give you an accurate measurement of >heat production without altering the basic design. I also suggest that use of >a reference cell can not be trusted because its characteristics can not be >made identical to the active cell. If you are interested, I can discuss this >problem with you privately. >Ed 5) Mills has good calibration practices which if augmented by chemical controls, and some of the other techniques that have been posted here, will be very good calibration, and if conducted with measurements in good S/N setting, would be useful. 6) Some references cells have been useful, including when in electrical series (although there are problems with that setup too) such as was used at Harwell in 1989. 7) Also, it is good to measure T at many sites without and about the cell for several reasons as previously noted. Dual monitoring systems are useful as well. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 14:38:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07841; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:36:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:36:42 -0800 Message-ID: <38D94B97.3A3C83CB ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:39:43 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T6hVE1.0.8w1.thKsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >As you know, many people have duplicated heat production using Ni of various > >forms, some of which work and some that produce nothing. The only difference > >between their work and the Mills method is an application of pulsed DC. I > >have a hard time understanding how this can make a difference. > > I have always assumed that if this works is because a cathode cannot deload > much between pulses. CF is not driven by electrolysis per se; it is driven > by loading, and loading or deloading occur slowly. Some people, including > Notoya and Mizuno, have hypothesized that cold fusion is dependent upon > electrochemical action and conditions, especially high overpotential, but > you can cause the CF reaction with gas loading and other non electrolysis > methods, so I guess you do not need overpotential. Once a cathode reaches > sufficient loading, you can push in new hydrogen intermittently, as the > other hydrogen slowly leaks out. I suppose it is something like a closet in > my daughter's room: it is filled with basketballs, toys, books and old > clothes, and you have throw the stuff back in intermittently because it > keeps spilling out, but you don't have to throw something every second. That is my understanding as well. However, Mills does not use this approach to its full effect. If you want to pump up the composition for a brief time, you should use the high frequency-high voltage approach used by the Italians. Presumably, the formation of hydrinos only requires K and H to be on the surface together in equal concentration. Too high a frequency and current would favor H over K. But then, no frequency at all would be best. Besides, many people see excess energy using pure DC. So what is the point of the mild pumping action Mills uses? Ed > > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 14:54:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12609; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:50:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:50:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:49:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38D94B97.3A3C83CB ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fiH1p3.0.v43.DvKsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:39 PM 3/22/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >So what is the point of the mild pumping action >Mills uses? What do you make of this, Ed? (from p 474) "The current voltage parameters for Experiment #2 were an periodic square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 volts; a peak constant current of 47.3 mA; a 36% duty cycle; and a frequency of 600 Hz. Peak voltage measurements were made with an oscilloscope (BK model #2120), and the time average current was determined from a multimeter voltage measurement (+/- 0.5%) across a calibrated resistor (1 ohm) in series with the lead to the cathode. The waveform of the pulsed cell was a square wave. Since there was current only during the peak voltage interval of the cycle, Pappl was given by Eq (25) and Pcell was given by Eq 26." "Eq 25: Pappl = Eappl*I*Dc" where Eappl is the peak voltage across the cell and I is the peak current observed (not the time average) and Dc is the duty cycle. Pappl is the total electrical power applied to the cell. "Eq 26: Pcell = (Eappl-1.48V)*I*Dc" where Pcell is the power dissipated as heat in the cell. The difference between Pappl and Pcell is assumed to escape as H2 and O2 fuel gases. I'm assuming that, by measuring the average I with a multimeter, they determined at once the quantity I*Dc and used it as such in the equations... Awfully low voltages, aren't they? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 15:29:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24555; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:24:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:24:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000322182307.007a0ae0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:23:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38D94B97.3A3C83CB ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xp5XC3.0.U_5.bOLsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >So what is the point of the mild pumping action >Mills uses? Pumping action is another story, about which I know little. (I am familliar with it, barely.) I thought the pulsing was mainly a way to improve the input to output ratio, but turning off the input. It is proof of principle that you do not need much electrolysis power. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 16:04:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04763; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:00:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: <38D92B1D.BC5FA187 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:20:45 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg , vortex Subject: New Class off Materials with negative Eps and Mu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J89gO2.0.HA1.KwLsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mccomposite.htm UCSD PHYSICISTS DEVELOP NEW CLASS OF COMPOSITE MATERIALS WITH 'REVERSED' PHYSICAL PROPERTIES NEVER BEFORE SEEN Minneapolis, MN-Physicists at the University of California, San Diego have produced a new class of composite materials with unusual physical properties that scientists theorized might be possible, but have never before been able to produce in nature. The remarkable achievement, detailed in a paper that will appear in a forthcoming issue of Physical Review Letters, was announced here today at a meeting of the American Physical Society. The UCSD physicists said they expect their discovery to open up a n ew subdiscipline within physics and produce an array of commercial applications for this material, on which the university has applied for a patent. "Composite materials like this are built on a totally new concept," said the two co-leaders of the UCSD team, Sheldon Schultz and David R. Smith, who announced their discovery at a news conference. "While they obey the laws of physics, they are predicted to behave totally different from normal materials and should find interesting applications." The unusual property of this new class of materials is essentially its ability to reverse many of the physical properties that govern the behavior of ordinary materials. One such property is the Doppler effect, which makes a train whistle sound higher in pitch as it approaches and lower in pitch as it recedes. According to Maxwell's equations, which describe the relationship between magnetic and electric fields, microwave radiation or light would show the opposite effect in this new class of materials, sh ifting to lower frequencies as a source approaches and to higher frequencies as it recedes. Similarly, Maxwell's equations further suggest that lenses that would normally disperse electromagnetic radiation would instead focus it within this composite material. This is because Snell's law, which describes the angle of refraction caused by the cha nge in velocity of light and other waves through lenses, water and other types of ordinary material, is expected to be exactly opposite within this composite. "If these effects turn out to be possible at optical frequencies, this material would have the crazy property that a flashlight shining on a slab can focus the light at a point on the other side," said Schultz. "There's no way you can do that with just a sheet of ordinary material." He notes that the development of this new class of materials, which was financed by the National Science Foundation and the Department of Energy, is entirely consistent with the laws of physics and was predicted as a possibility in 1968 by a Russian theor ist, V.G. Veselago. "But until now," Schultz adds, "no one had the material, so it couldn't be verified." Underlying the reversal of the Doppler effect, Snell's law, and Cerenkov radiation (radiation by charged particles moving through a medium) is that this new material exhibits a reversal of one of the "right-hand rules" of physics which describe a relation ship between the electric and magnetic fields and the direction of their wave velocity. The new materials are known by the UCSD team colloquially as "left-handed materials," after a term coined by Veselago, because they reverse this relationship. What that means is physically counterintuitive-pulses of electromagnetic radiation moving throug h the material in one direction are composed of constituent waves moving in the opposite direction. The UCSD physicists emphasized that while they believe their new class of composites will be shown to reverse Snell's law, the specific composite they produced will not do so at visible-light frequencies. Instead, it is now limited to transmitting microwa ve radiation at frequencies of 4 to 7 Gigahertz-a range somewhere between the operation of household microwave ovens (3.3 Gigahertz) and military radars (10 Gigahertz). However, Schultz said the UCSD team will soon be attempting to verify that a composite constructed on similar principles will be able to focus and disperse microwaves in exactly the opposite manner as normal lenses. "We did not do this experiment yet," he said. "But this is what the equations predict. Physicists will understand that if our data presented in our paper are correct, given Maxwell's equations, then this will be the result." The composite constructed by the UCSD team-which also consisted of Willie J. Padilla, David C. Vier, and Syrus C. Nemat-Nasser-was produced from a series of thin copper rings and ordinary copper wire strung parallel to the rings. It is an example of a new class of materials scientists call "metamaterials." "Even though it is composed of only copper wires and copper rings, the arrangement has an effective magnetic response to microwaves that has never been demonstrated before," said Schultz. The idea for the new composite came from Smith, building on the work of John Pendry of Imperial College, London. In 1996, Pendry described a way of using ordinary copper wires to create a material with the property physicists call "negative electric permi ttivity." Electric permittivity-often referred to as the "dielectric constant"-is the response of a material to electromagnetic radiation. "When you take a material like plastic, glass or sapphire and you shine microwaves onto it, you can characterize how the microwaves going through it will behave by a parameter called electric permittivity," explained Schultz. Most known materials in natur e have a positive electric permittivity. Pendry also recently suggested a way of using copper rings to make a material with negative magnetic permeability at microwave frequencies. Just about all of the magnetic materials in nature, those that respond to magnetic rather than electric fields, hav e what physicists call a "positive magnetic permeability." What's unusual about the new class of materials produced by the UCSD team is that it simultaneously has a negative electric permittivity and a negative magnetic permeability, a combination of properties never before seen in a natural or man-made material. "And the interesting thing is that it's produced with no magnetic material," said Schultz. "It's all done with copper." "The bottom line," said Smith, "is that this material-this metamaterial, at frequencies where both the permittivity and permeability are negative, behaves according to a left-handed rule, rather than a right-handed rule." # # # David Smith can be reached March 20-22 in Minneapolis at 612-331-1900. Sheldon Schultz can be reached March 20-23 in Minneapolis at 612-333-4545 Messages for the UCSD scientists can also be left at the APS meeting pressroom at 612-335-6735, 6736, 6737, 6738. Pressroom Hours: Mon.-Wed. 8AM to 5PM, Thurs. 8AM to noon. The news conference will take place at 1 p.m. March 21 at the Minneapolis Conventi on Center, Room 203B. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 17:00:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14253; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:57:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:57:39 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:56:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <024501bf9415$9e9433c0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <024501bf9415$9e9433c0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id QAA14224 Resent-Message-ID: <"B8k_92.0.dU3.0mMsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:44:21 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: >To: Vortex > >Aqueous Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) effects the decomposition of >Hydrogen Peroxide (HO-OH) to H2O + O2: > >2 HO-OH + ( K+) + (MnO4-) <---> 2 H2O + O2 + Heat > >The V2 Rocket used NaMnO4 as the H2O2 Decomposition Catalyst. > >K2CO3aq can be mixed with KMnO4aq and the H2O2aq can be added (slowly). > >Will this produce "Hydrinos" and/or "Hydrino Hydride" or such, as well as H2O + O2? Hi Fred, I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well (not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though "oxyginos" might be possible?). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 17:23:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26730; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:20:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:20:32 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:11:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <38D94B97.3A3C83CB@ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA26711 Resent-Message-ID: <"WvKwQ2.0.aX6.W5Nsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:49:58 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >"The current voltage parameters for Experiment #2 were an periodic >square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 >volts; a peak constant current of 47.3 mA; a 36% duty cycle; and a >frequency of 600 Hz. Peak voltage measurements were made with an Heh, there's Keely's 600 Hz turning up again! [snip] >Awfully low voltages, aren't they? Reason perhaps why they attempted to make the cathode area so large by using many turns of wire? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 17:28:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27982; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:25:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:25:52 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Class off Materials with negative Eps and Mu Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:26:28 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller midiowa.net Message-ID: <38de7232.357816753 mail.midiowa.net> References: <38D93D9F.E6A0666C verisoft.com.tr> In-Reply-To: <38D93D9F.E6A0666C verisoft.com.tr> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA27935 Resent-Message-ID: <"yetYi2.0.2r6.VANsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hamdi, On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:39:43 +0200, hamdi ucar wrote: >The unusual property of this new class of materials >is essentially its ability to reverse many of the >physical properties that govern the behavior of >ordinary materials. One such property is the Doppler >effect, which makes a train whistle sound higher >in pitch as it approaches and lower in pitch as >it recedes. According to Maxwell's equations, which >describe the relationship between magnetic and >electric fields, microwave radiation or light would >show the opposite effect in this new class of >materials, shifting to lower frequencies as a source >approaches and to higher frequencies as it recedes. I haven't looked up any references, as yet -- but I smell an April Fool's joke. Doppler effect has nothing to do with the material producing the radiation -- and has everything to do with the relative velocity between the emitter and the receiver. What this paragraph is saying is that the emitter is aware of all receivers (their position and relative motion) as it's emitting it's radiation; and can predict the changes in position and motion in the receiver(s) as it's emitting. Sound right to you? :) -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 17:49:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01145; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:48:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:48:30 -0800 Message-ID: <38D977BC.731AABBA verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:47:40 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: New Class off Materials with negative Eps and Mu References: <38D93D9F.E6A0666C verisoft.com.tr> <38de7232.357816753@mail.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"khYe.0.pH.kVNsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean, See search result form LANL archive of Jonh Pendry papers, the physicist supplying the theory. http://arXiv.org/find/cond-mat/1/AND+au:+J+au:+Pendry/0/1/0/all/0/1 Some of them appears directly to the discovery. "Dean T. Miller" wrote: > > Hi Hamdi, > > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:39:43 +0200, hamdi ucar > wrote: > > >The unusual property of this new class of materials > >is essentially its ability to reverse many of the > >physical properties that govern the behavior of > >ordinary materials. One such property is the Doppler [snip] > > I haven't looked up any references, as yet -- but I smell an April > Fool's joke. > > Doppler effect has nothing to do with the material > producing the radiation -- and has everything to do with the relative > velocity between the emitter and the receiver. What this paragraph is > saying is that the emitter is aware of all receivers (their position > and relative motion) as it's emitting it's radiation; and can predict > the changes in position and motion in the receiver(s) as it's > emitting. > > Sound right to you? :) > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) No!, I did not understood any word from the Doppler subject. Actually, very badly written. Regards, hamdi From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 17:51:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01638; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:50:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:50:03 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:31:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5b.37a9028.260a92e5 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <5b.37a9028.260a92e5 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA01610 Resent-Message-ID: <"-GUU1.0.TP.AXNsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:19:33 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: [snip] > It tried to Mike, as evidenced by the 100W lamp in parallel with the >HV transformer primary windings. Lamp was at full brilliance. >I even switched the HV supply over to manual control (the variac) and >had that full on, still only 5 watts to the tube. I switched back to >auto and still the same reading, on both the Texmate wattmeter and >the two backup voltmeter and ammeter. BTW, the Texmate meter >has a function where I can display either input 1 (volts), or input 2 (amps) >and both displayed the same readings as the backup meters. Normally >the Texmate displays the I x V reading of the two inputs. > >Big question here is: "Why did temperature increase rapidly for >20 minutes AFTER the power went down from 30 watts to 5 watts"? [snip] Hi Vince, It looks like you actually have two different things going on concurrently. One is that the DC voltage didn't go up when it should have (to keep the delivered power constant), and the other is the behaviour of the tube itself. The tube behaviour is doubtless interesting, but I would tend to put that on the "back burner" for the moment, till the other problem is solved. The immediate question is why didn't the DC voltage go up when the input voltage went up? The only answer I can come up with is that there is a voltage/current/temperature dependant short in the secondary of the transformer. This may not show up until certain conditions are met e.g. temperature, after having operated for a certain amount of time. I considered the possibility of a shift in load point, but this doesn't make sense, because the current went down, implying an increase in load resistance. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 18:06:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28946; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:04:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:04:52 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:06:40 -0500 Message-ID: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"507ix3.0.A47.1lNsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well >(not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though >"oxyginos" might be possible?). > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk I would have thought the same or similar. In other words, if H can be shrunk, then just about anything could be. The spectral data would be able to tell, I would think, but so far, all we have heard about is the shrinking of H. Any more wild speculators out there? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 18:16:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10390; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:12:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:12:02 -0800 Message-ID: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133119 mailserver.omnikron.com> From: "Florek, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:15:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"VRrk21.0.rX2.krNsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Huffman writes: >Robin writes: >I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well >(not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though >"oxyginos" might be possible?). > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >I would have thought the same or similar. In other words, if H can be >shrunk, then just about anything could be. The spectral data would be able >to tell, I would think, but so far, all we have heard about is the shrinking >of H. Any more wild speculators out there? Mills has said without elaborating in at least one interview that he doesn't think other elements have hydrino-like states. It may be because H is the only element with a spherical electron configuration--other configurations don't scale down symmetrically in terms of momentum, charge, etc. I would imagine he has tried before. -Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 18:36:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15655; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:27:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:27:36 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:27:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <140jdss3v291vu4j2je4vcbt8fampjejik 4ax.com> References: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133119 mailserver.omnikron.com> In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133119 mailserver.omnikron.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA15618 Resent-Message-ID: <"H0bIH3.0.Wq3.L4Osu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:15:28 -0800, Florek, Steven wrote: [snip] >Mills has said without elaborating in at least one interview that he doesn't >think other elements have hydrino-like states. It may be because H is the >only element with a spherical electron configuration--other configurations >don't scale down symmetrically in terms of momentum, charge, etc. I would >imagine he has tried before. > >-Steve However other atoms do have S sub-shells which according to QM are spherical. Could I be forgiven for thinking that these might be susceptible to shrinkage? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 19:22:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31629; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:17:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:17:13 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:16:19 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"yAOaz.0.1k7.toOsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/22/00 5:52:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > Hi Vince, > > It looks like you actually have two different things going on concurrently. > One is that the DC voltage didn't go up when it should have (to keep the > delivered power constant), and the other is the behaviour of the tube > itself. > The tube behaviour is doubtless interesting, but I would tend to put that on > the "back burner" for the moment, till the other problem is solved. > The immediate question is why didn't the DC voltage go up when the input > voltage went up? > The only answer I can come up with is that there is a > voltage/current/temperature dependant short in the secondary of the > transformer. I have an analog voltmeter and ammeter that monitors the input to the HV transformer primary so would not a short circut show up there? The ammeter reading actually dropped during the excursion. At a 30 watt input the power supply normally draws about 4 amperes. During the event it had dropped to about 1 ampere. Regardless of that, why did the temperature rise during the low wattage input no matter if the ruduced power was caused by a power supply fault or what, I just don't know. > This may not show up until certain conditions are met e.g. > temperature, after having operated for a certain amount of time. > I considered the possibility of a shift in load point, but this doesn't make > sense, because the current went down, implying an increase in load > resistance. > > Regards, > Robin van Spaandonk > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html Hydrogen Potassium Glow Discharge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 19:32:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03053; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:26:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:26:33 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:38:38 -0500 Message-ID: <20000323033838593.AAA275 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"j8aVD3.0.dl.exOsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >>-Steve >However other atoms do have S sub-shells which according to QM are >spherical. Could I be forgiven for thinking that these might be susceptible >to shrinkage? > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Yes, and I'm wondering about the "amorphous iron" and other particles that Suslick is claiming to produce. The copper that Hamdix has just reported on should have some weird spectral data, as well as the strange behaviors. Is anyone here qualified in the math well enough to predict if these shrunken states are possible in other materials using Mills' theories. Also, how would the meta-Mu metals that Hamdi has presented possibly be translated by Mills' theory? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 19:54:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13912; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:52:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:52:48 -0800 Message-ID: <027f01bf94d9$a5784540$bc8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Tewari (was : Correa) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:16:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"bpfnC3.0.HP3.FKPsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jean-Pierre and all, I wrote to Mr. Kamath about his testing of the Tewari generator and his reply is below. Mr. Kamath seems to be an open minded sceptic. Tewari's actions seem more those of someone with little knowledge of testing procedures than those of an out and out fraud. Fred Hello thanks for referring me reg tewari. Yes i had failed to mention the test procedure. Firstly any machine that geniuinely obeys overunity will be embraced by the civilised world today.The generator was tested by me in 1996 1997 and to the best of my knowledge , it is a falsified claim . The only thing i cannot reject is the electrical output it gave as i am a mechanical engineer and not very familier on detecting electrical frauds.The output was 3 Kw at 2volts approx. However i have tested the machine otherwise and here is how it gives its overunity efficiency. STEP 1: First Mr tewari runs the generator at a constant rpm without load using a DC motor and reads the input of the motor and calculates the output by the charts provided by the motor manufacturer for that speed . This value he takes as loss of the generator at that rpm.(i call it as INPUT1.) STEP 2: Then he runs the generator with external shunt load at the same rpm as above and measures the output of the generator. This he takes as total output (OUTPUT). and also calculates the input of motor to the generator at this speed and load. ( i call it as INPUT 2) STEP 3: Then he calculates efficiency in this way. OUTPUT/(INPUT2 - INPUT1) ------------------------(equation 1) here he claims INPUT2 - INPUT1 as the net input to produce OUTPUT. MY THINKING: To provide OUTPUT , the input is INPUT2 and not (INPUT2-INPUT1). and so efficiency must be OUTPUT/INPUT2-------------------------------------(equation 2) If you calculate the efficiency of any generator by equation 1 , it will be over 100 percent. Also Mr Tewari says the heat produced by the generator is also output and can be used to heat .In this argument , any motor or generator is at least 100 percent efficient as heat losses are considered to be input. . However if you are willing to see it for yourself then here is the address of Mr tewari He is situated just 2 hours drive from the popular beach resort of India namely GOA. His address : Paramahamsa Tewari Vinodini Niwas PO Gotegoli Karwar , Karnataka India I do not reject the possibility of free energy but it issurely not done in Tewari way. If you need any further details , please contact me. Vasanth D Kamath > >Uh oh. You might check : >http://www.phact.org/e/z/tewari.htm > >Now, I'm not endorsing everything on Eric Krieg's free-energy-skeptic site, >but sometimes skeptic literature is a good source of information too... In >this case, the report written by an Indian engineer about his encounters >with Tewari, though flawed with usual skeptic anathema about "violations of >thermodynamic laws", does seems to indicate, if you read between the lines, >that Mr Tewari is a, let's say, "Newmanesque" con-man character... >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jean-Pierre Lentin >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 21:00:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02721; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:59:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:59:24 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:58:56 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA02687 Resent-Message-ID: <"inmVY.0.Rg.iIQsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:16:19 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: [snip] >> The only answer I can come up with is that there is a >> voltage/current/temperature dependant short in the secondary of the >> transformer. > >I have an analog voltmeter and ammeter that monitors the input to >the HV transformer primary so would not a short circut show up there? >The ammeter reading actually dropped during the excursion. At a 30 watt >input the power supply normally draws about 4 amperes. During the >event it had dropped to about 1 ampere. > >Regardless of that, why did the temperature rise during the low wattage >input no matter if the ruduced power was caused by a power supply fault >or what, I just don't know. [snip] Well, Vince, I got half way through explaining what I thought was happening, when I talked myself into a corner, and realised I was just plain wrong. How's this for an alternative explanation: Your plasma achieved a negative resistance state, where a rise in voltage results in a drop in current? Then your power supply feedback and the tube are working at odds with one another, but will find a stable point at which both are happy. (Check out Dr. P. Correa's power graph). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 21:09:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA05738; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:07:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:07:43 -0800 Message-ID: <20000323050735.8838.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:07:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"r3dun.0.4P1.SQQsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote: > No acid used on the anode. First I polish with a fine rubber grit tip with > > the > Dremel tool, rinse in distilled water, followed by denatured alcohol final > rinse > in acetone and blow dry w/compressed air. Typical air compressors use lubricating oil, and their air is oil contaminated to some degree. The compressed air dry probably negates the acetone rinse. Do not use compressed air to dry parts that you want clean. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 21:35:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16134; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:34:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:34:28 -0800 Message-ID: <20000323053427.16126.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:34:26 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"R6-T51.0.0y3.apQsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > "The current voltage parameters for Experiment #2 were an periodic > square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 > volts; a peak constant current of 47.3 mA; a 36% duty cycle; and a > frequency of 600 Hz. Peak voltage measurements were made with an > oscilloscope (BK model #2120), and the time average current was determined > from a multimeter voltage measurement (+/- 0.5%) across a calibrated > resistor (1 ohm) in series with the lead to the cathode. The waveform of > the pulsed cell was a square wave. Since there was current only during the > peak voltage interval of the cycle, Pappl was given by Eq (25) and Pcell > was given by Eq 26." > > "Eq 25: Pappl = Eappl*I*Dc" > > where Eappl is the peak voltage across the cell and I is the peak current > observed (not the time average) and Dc is the duty cycle. Pappl is the > total electrical power applied to the cell. > > "Eq 26: Pcell = (Eappl-1.48V)*I*Dc" > > where Pcell is the power dissipated as heat in the cell. The difference > between Pappl and Pcell is assumed to escape as H2 and O2 fuel gases. > > I'm assuming that, by measuring the average I with a multimeter, they > determined at once the quantity I*Dc and used it as such in the > equations... This looks like what they did. It is valid, if the current truly is negligibly small at the offset voltage. You should verify this by an oscilloscopic measurement of the current. Of course, you can measure the true input power with your Clark-Hess. > Awfully low voltages, aren't they? But the current and current density are low, too, so the voltage should be rather low. However, all that Ni surface might catalyze recombination of H2 and O2. Mills did not, so far as I know, measure offgas to check for recombination. The combination of low current (low gas generation rate) and large Ni area (rather large recombination rate) makes it imperitive to check for recombination. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 22 23:59:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA12887; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:58:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:58:13 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:56:19 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"pNEVE3.0.B93.KwSsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/22/00 9:01:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > How's this for an alternative explanation: > Your plasma achieved a negative resistance state, where a rise in voltage > results in a drop in current? Then your power supply feedback and the tube > are working at odds with one another, but will find a stable point at which > both are happy. > (Check out Dr. P. Correa's power graph). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > Robin, I too have tried to think of a way to falsify what I observed. I tore the power controls apart checking everything I could think of and took all the suggestions from everyone who posted on the subject. A bucking current was also suggested to me in a phone call this evening. But where would it come from? Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html H2K Glow Discharge Experiment From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 00:03:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA13765; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:01:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:01:48 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:00:57 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"APuk.0.wM3.dzSsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/22/00 9:09:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > > rinse in acetone and blow dry w/compressed air. > > Typical air compressors use lubricating oil, and their air is oil > contaminated to some degree. The compressed air dry probably negates the > acetone rinse. Do not use compressed air to dry parts that you want clean. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > Not this one Mike, I'ts a diaphram pump, oilless. Used in dentists offices to blow dry your teeth. Don't know if it's used to drive the air turbine drill. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html H2K Glow Discharge Experiment From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 00:07:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA14502; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:06:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:06:41 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:18:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20000323081828250.AAA304 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"oCNmT2.0.RY3.D2Tsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin writes: >Well, Vince, I got half way through explaining what I thought was happening, >when I talked myself into a corner, and realised I was just plain wrong. >How's this for an alternative explanation: >Your plasma achieved a negative resistance state, where a rise in voltage >results in a drop in current? Then your power supply feedback and the tube >are working at odds with one another, but will find a stable point at which >both are happy. >(Check out Dr. P. Correa's power graph). > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Couldn't you put a diode in the input line that would turn all the feedback power to another circuit so that you could measure that? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 01:34:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28211; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:32:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:32:25 -0800 Message-ID: <004701bf94b2$dcc74680$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: H2K: Run 031800 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:29:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"CUc_02.0.iu6.dIUsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Seems that the current of denial is running strong. :-) Vince's data indicates an OU power of ~25 watts as determined from the run data. Approx 5 watts input and ~ 30 watts output. Not bad for starters. Since the cathode area is loaded with the Tungsten sputtered off the cathode, and Mizuno-Ohmori , et al, have determined that W undergoes "Fission" under similar conditions, positively charged fission fragments (with tens of Mev energy) from the Sputtered W going into the high retarding field set up in the cathode fall region of the glow discharge at a modest "current of ~ 3E13/sec (~ 1.0 microamperes) could easily account for the 25 watts Over Unity, and the 5 watt "retarding field" energy. This is similar to an approach used in High Energy Physics (Free Electron Lasers)to recover energy from particles going over the magnetic "Speed Bump". Feel free to do the physics. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 05:27:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA16629; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:26:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:26:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:24:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <20000323053427.16126.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EfADf3.0.h34.fjXsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: >However, all that Ni surface might catalyze recombination of H2 and O2. Mills >did not, so far as I know, measure offgas to check for recombination. The >combination of low current (low gas generation rate) and large Ni area >(rather large recombination rate) makes it imperitive to check for >recombination. They did not check for recombination at Thermacore, HOWEVER they showed that there would be significant excess heat even with 100% recombination. They should have checked, I think. Large surface and low current do promote recombination, but I think the anode is far away from the cathode in this cell, which inhibits recombination. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 06:39:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15729; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:37:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:37:51 -0800 Message-ID: <38DA2CE3.16C03553 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:40:40 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EUYl21.0.hr3._mYsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest, Jed, that the distance between anode and cathode will have very little effect on recombination. The small amounts of necessary components are dissolved in the fluid and are present as very fine bubbles which are uniformly distributed throughout the fluid. Consequently, the components can easily travel throughout the fluid. At these low currents, recombination should be near 50% regardless of the dimensions. If they had checked for recombination using the amount of gas produced, they would have discovered how much of the heat was being produced by the Mills process and how much was caused by transmutation. This issue needs to be resolved by someone else because Mills does not think such an issue exists. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > >However, all that Ni surface might catalyze recombination of H2 and O2. Mills > >did not, so far as I know, measure offgas to check for recombination. The > >combination of low current (low gas generation rate) and large Ni area > >(rather large recombination rate) makes it imperitive to check for > >recombination. > > They did not check for recombination at Thermacore, HOWEVER they showed > that there would be significant excess heat even with 100% recombination. > > They should have checked, I think. > > Large surface and low current do promote recombination, but I think the > anode is far away from the cathode in this cell, which inhibits recombination. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 06:53:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21383; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:50:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:50:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:49:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DA2CE3.16C03553 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jFslO3.0.1E5.vyYsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > The small amounts of necessary components are dissolved >in the fluid and are present as very fine bubbles which are uniformly distributed >throughout the fluid. Izzatso? The bubbles are so fine, they do not rise to the top, eh? I have never seen one of these big cells. >This issue needs to be >resolved by someone else because Mills does not think such an issue exists. I don't know about Mills, but Ernst from Thermacore had a different attitude. As I said, he acknowledged that recombination is possible, and he showed there would be significant excess heat anyway, in the worst case. This is not the same as denying the issue exists. Still, as you say, they should have measured it, because it will influence the chemistry. It is important to know what is happening on the electrode surfaces. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 07:13:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12210; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:11:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:11:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000323091056.0139393c earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:10:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <20000323053427.16126.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4bdNm1.0.e-2.pGZsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:34 PM 3/22/00 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: >This looks like what they did. It is valid, if the current truly is >negligibly small at the offset voltage. You should verify this by an >oscilloscopic measurement of the current. Of course, you can measure the true >input power with your Clark-Hess. I will do both. >However, all that Ni surface might catalyze recombination of H2 and O2. Mills >did not, so far as I know, measure offgas to check for recombination. The >combination of low current (low gas generation rate) and large Ni area >(rather large recombination rate) makes it imperitive to check for >recombination. Indeed. I have specifically designed my cell cap to permit this measurement. On p 474, Mills describes how he studied the offgassing of a similar cell operated under similar conditions and found it to match the expected Faradaic efficiency very well. He assumed that the same behavior was occurring in the actual cell undergoing calorimetric tests. I'll be measuring it on the fly during the calorimetric tests. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 07:16:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA32422; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:13:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:13:07 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38DA42C1.537376BA mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:13:53 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"JuOrt2.0.Mw7.2IZsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T. Huffman wrote: ... If H can be shrunk, then just about anything could be. The spectral data would be able to tell, I would think, but so far, all we have heard about is the shrinking of H. Any more wild speculators out there? Hi Knuke, The same thought has been occuring to me for some time. Maybe Fred Sparber could suggest a possible catalytic system to make "inos" with lots of energy released and the stabilty to make new chemical compounds. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 07:25:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03241; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:22:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:22:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000323091550.01234e80 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:15:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38D92912.FE79C88 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"szARh1.0.Yo.RQZsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:12 PM 3/22/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Scott, I strongly suggest that in addition to measuring delta T between the >fluid and the outside of the dewar, you also measure delta T between the inner >surface of the lid and its outer surface, for both the active and reference >cell. Only this type of measurement will give you an accurate measurement of >heat production without altering the basic design. Please explain. Is this concern based upon the idea that the primary heat leak is through the lid? >I also suggest that use of >a reference cell can not be trusted because its characteristics can not be >made identical to the active cell. If you are interested, I can discuss this >problem with you privately. This is an important point, Ed. Please provide a brief outline of your concerns for the list. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 07:51:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13150; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:47:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:47:45 -0800 Message-Id: <200003231547.KAA26693 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:49:00 CST From: John N Reply-to: John N To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: J Street Mailer (build 98.6.3) Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"HKDGz2.0.KD3.XoZsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >>As you know, many people have duplicated heat production using Ni of various >>forms, some of which work and some that produce nothing. The only difference >>between their work and the Mills method is an application of pulsed DC. I >>have a hard time understanding how this can make a difference. Jed Rothwell wrote >I have always assumed that if this works is because a cathode cannot deload >much between pulses. Pardon the intrusion but this is a temporary crusade. A proper pulse can deload all individual Pd-D2 sites. Such allows a fresh restart, an opportunity for rejuvenation, in a dead system. It is also a technique for running thousands of mini experiments rather than one extended experiment. (If you have nothing, kick it.) It typically produces nothing extra. The ultimate usefulness can be seen by focusing on the abnormal location, where CF action occurs. In terms of Mills' chemistry, the abnormal bond is at the * obtained from a free(!) hydrogen approach to a bare site catalyst + H --> catalyst - abnormal_H * (* is the only available abnormal location) Notice that catalyst + H2 --> catalyst - abnormal_H* - H has already taken the abnormal bond location out of the equation. Similarly in PdCF, if a common D2 approach to site produced CF, there would be no experimental questions. There is, of course, a similarly abnormal bond between the catalyst and H. Since Pd + D2 - - > Pd-D2 doesn't produce CF, all individual Pd-D2 sites are intrinsically dead to CF. Deloading D2 a few particle dimensions offsite, followed by loading D2, reproduces the dead site. Here, Mills is more cute than candid. The standard P&F experiment is two steps from reliability and efficiency; Mills' experiment is one. The internal generation of free D controls the rate of CF. Site deloading is one of those steps. Disassociation to produce free D for Pd + D - - > Pd-Abnormal_D* is the second. Notice that Mills obsesses about free H, not H2. For the record Mills' theory is wrong per se, but, as others before him have done, he conjured math to describe a valid new and unexplained spectra. The hydrino logic is not causal, but the abnormal condition and spectra under the term, knowledge of which caused his math excursion, is real whatever it is called. There is an exact factor of 2 involved in catalyst + H. Ergo he needed the 1/2. He probably would have won an early Nobel prize had he merely publicly documented the abnormal spectra and displayed reliable CF. He chose lead time. Given a corrupt QM gateway, he was probably correct to do so. His work was probably also motivated by knowledge of QM faults and 'hand waving pivot points'. He has substance parity and new spectra; they have the establishment. Neither has a causal explanation of Catalyst - H_abnormal* or CF. He now appears to have the ear of someone who has the President's ear. Finally, there are so many new elements in CF it is difficult to discuss without eye glaze. The CF event is not a nucleus to nucleus approach; it is an oriented atom to atom approach. It is specifically Pd - Abnormal_D(atom with electron)* + (electron with atom)D --> Pd + D + D + .511 Mev, or 4He + .511 Mev depending... I haven't concluded whether the second electron necessarily destructs or not. It seems not for 4He, but perhaps so for D + D. I think not. How that produces nuclear proximity without Coulombic repulsion is a second question. It is answered only with epistemological particle change but amounts to screening. The coinciding nuclear approach does not see the full nuclear coulombic repulsion; it hardly sees any. The above orientation per se is inadequate. That merely produces electron annihilation because of D*. This is irrelevant to a successful PdCF experiment. The experiment does, and should, stand alone.Deloading the site, followed by disassociation, is correct. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 08:05:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15820; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:57:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:57:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000323105547.0079eb10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:55:47 -0500 To: John N , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <200003231547.KAA26693 mail.lynxus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"d3RPR1.0.6t3.CxZsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John N wrote: > A proper pulse can deload all individual Pd-D2 sites. Such allows a fresh >restart, an opportunity for rejuvenation, in a dead system. What constitutes a "proper" pulse? Timing? Intensity? Would this be a reverse pulse, making the cathode briefly anodic? That would dump the D2, alright. McKubre reports good results with this technique. When all sites deload, wouldn't you see a burst of bubbles, or does this refer to surface sites only? I have never heard that a pulse can deload "all" sites. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 08:24:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25428; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:22:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:22:19 -0800 Message-ID: <38DA455A.17EEE0A6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:25:09 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WBerT2.0.ED6.wIasu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, If I understand the parameters, the voltage changed from of 3.5V (1.6+1.9) to -0.3 V (1.6-1.9). While at 3.5V, a current of 47.3 mA was measured and this was held for 0.6 msec. No current was detected when -0.3V was applied for 1 msec. In addition, zero recombination was assumed and 1.48 V was used as the correction for unrecombined gas loss. A cell resistance of 74 ohm is indicated which is about what would be expected. I suggest the actual recombination was greater than 50% which would have caused the excess to be slightly smaller than claimed. The conditions would not have produced a significant increase in hydrogen content within the Ni. I can only assume Mills was apparently trying to produce this low hydrogen content. The question is why would he think these conditions would enhance the effect he was trying to achieve? If I were trying to deposit K and H together on a surface, I would not want the potential ever to go negative, because this would allow the deposited K to be redissolved by the liquid. In addition, I would want the current to have a steady, large value to allow deposition of K to take place as fast as possible, a process which is very slow compared to deposition of H. In this cell, the concentration of K on the Ni surface is the rate determining value. Mills seems to have done everything he can to reduce this concentration. Consequently, this cell design makes no sense. Ed Scott Little wrote: > At 03:39 PM 3/22/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >So what is the point of the mild pumping action > >Mills uses? > > What do you make of this, Ed? (from p 474) > > "The current voltage parameters for Experiment #2 were an periodic > square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 > volts; a peak constant current of 47.3 mA; a 36% duty cycle; and a > frequency of 600 Hz. Peak voltage measurements were made with an > oscilloscope (BK model #2120), and the time average current was determined > from a multimeter voltage measurement (+/- 0.5%) across a calibrated > resistor (1 ohm) in series with the lead to the cathode. The waveform of > the pulsed cell was a square wave. Since there was current only during the > peak voltage interval of the cycle, Pappl was given by Eq (25) and Pcell > was given by Eq 26." > > "Eq 25: Pappl = Eappl*I*Dc" > > where Eappl is the peak voltage across the cell and I is the peak current > observed (not the time average) and Dc is the duty cycle. Pappl is the > total electrical power applied to the cell. > > "Eq 26: Pcell = (Eappl-1.48V)*I*Dc" > > where Pcell is the power dissipated as heat in the cell. The difference > between Pappl and Pcell is assumed to escape as H2 and O2 fuel gases. > > I'm assuming that, by measuring the average I with a multimeter, they > determined at once the quantity I*Dc and used it as such in the equations... > > Awfully low voltages, aren't they? > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 08:50:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24384; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:48:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:48:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000323104721.01397f7c earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:47:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DA455A.17EEE0A6 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K9BI63.0.ny5.Bhasu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:25 AM 3/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >Scott, > >If I understand the parameters, the voltage changed from of 3.5V (1.6+1.9) to >-0.3 V (1.6-1.9). That's not how I understood it. Here's the quote again: "The current voltage parameters for Experiment #2 were an periodic square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 volts; a peak constant current of 47.3 mA; a 36% duty cycle; and a frequency of 600 Hz." On page 479, there's a data table which lists the following data for that experiment (my apologies for not including this info earlier): V: 1.90 volts Duty cycle: 36% I: 0.0473 amps VI Power: .032 watts (V-1.48)I Input Power: 0.007 watts Output power: 0.114 watts Excess power: 0.107 watts Output/Input: 1630% >From these numbers we can see that the actual cell voltage was only 1.90 volts and, at that voltage, the cell drew 0.0473 amps. That give a peak V*I of 90 milliwatts which, with the 36% duty cycle, yields a net V*I of 32 milliwatts. At this very low cell voltage, look how important the assumption of zero recombination becomes! However, even if there was 100% recombination, this experiment would still have shown a .114/.032 or 356% Pout/Pin ratio. So the voltage applied to the cell apparently varied between 1.60 and 1.90. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 09:30:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01806; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:28:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:28:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <02ad01bf946f$abdc85a0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <024501bf9415$9e9433c0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:29:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"xUgyh1.0.xR.nGbsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Robin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:44:21 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >To: Vortex > > > >Aqueous Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) effects the decomposition of > >Hydrogen Peroxide (HO-OH) to H2O + O2: > > > >2 HO-OH + ( K+) + (MnO4-) <---> 2 H2O + O2 + Heat > > > >The V2 Rocket used NaMnO4 as the H2O2 Decomposition Catalyst. > > > >K2CO3aq can be mixed with KMnO4aq and the H2O2aq can be added (slowly). > > > >Will this produce "Hydrinos" and/or "Hydrino Hydride" or such, as well as H2O + O2? > Hi Fred, > > I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well > (not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though > "oxyginos" might be possible?). Au Contraire: H2O2 ---> 2 OH OH + H2O ---> 2 OH + H OH + H2 ---> H2O + H O + H2O ---> 2 OH O + H2 ---> OH + H OH + H2O2 ---> H2O + HO2 OH + HO2 ---> H2O + O2 Had enough? :-) Regards, Frederick H + O2 ---> HO2 > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 09:48:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26158; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:47:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:47:21 -0800 Message-ID: <38DA5950.D09868D4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:50:23 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nukcY2.0.eO6.eYbsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > The small amounts of necessary components are dissolved > >in the fluid and are present as very fine bubbles which are uniformly > distributed > >throughout the fluid. > > Izzatso? The bubbles are so fine, they do not rise to the top, eh? I have > never seen one of these big cells. At low current, the bubbles are small in all cells. Consequently, they do not rise to the top very effectively, as you surmised. > > >This issue needs to be > >resolved by someone else because Mills does not think such an issue exists. > > I don't know about Mills, but Ernst from Thermacore had a different > attitude. As I said, he acknowledged that recombination is possible, and he > showed there would be significant excess heat anyway, in the worst case. > This is not the same as denying the issue exists. No, you misunderstand. The issue is not the amount of recombination but how much hydrino formation takes place relative to transmutation production. This ratio can be determined by measuring the amount of H2 and O2 produced. Hydrino production results in loss of H2 relative to O2 while transmutation does not affect this ratio. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 09:55:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27532; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:51:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:49:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Resent-Message-ID: <"CIQdb3.0.tj6.Ncbsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Robin writes: >>I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well >>(not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though >>"oxyginos" might be possible?). >> >> >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk > >I would have thought the same or similar. In other words, if H can be >shrunk, then just about anything could be. ***{Hydrogen and helium atoms in their ground state configurations have no electron shells below their outer shells. If, therefore, you wedge a hydrogen or helium atom into a location (e.g., a Pd lattice) which is too small for the electrons to orbit at the ground state radius, it seems reasonable that they might spiral down into the unstable, classical orbits nearer to the nucleus. (Some of which Mills believes to be stable.) However, there are no other atoms for which that is true. Oxygen, for example, has 3 shells, and if an oxygen atom were forced into a lattice which was too tight to accomodate the 6 m-shell electrons, repulsion from the l-shell would tend to prevent the m-shell electrons from spiraling into lower orbits. Result: there would be a deformation of the lattice at that location, rather than a shrinkage of the oxygen atom. Such considerations suggest that the possibility of "shrunken atoms" may be limited to hydrogen (protium, deuterium, and tritium) and, possibly, to helium. The main issue when discriminating between "shrunken atom" theories, therefore, is simply this: are there stable orbits below the ground state in hydrogen and helium. If so, the hydrino theory applies; if not, we are left with the protoneutron theory. In my view, therefore, everything depends on whether or not Mills can demonstrate the existence of his novel hydrino compounds. --MJ}*** The spectral data would be able >to tell, I would think, but so far, all we have heard about is the shrinking >of H. Any more wild speculators out there? > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 10:01:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07063; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:57:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:57:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:02:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? In-Reply-To: <40A414849CAFD311A9FC00C04F0DF877133119 mailserver.omnikron.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bQVfZ.0.Fk1.mhbsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Neutrinos Hydrinos Oxydrinos Jeno's Let's Eat! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 11:07:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA27681; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:02:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:43:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Resent-Message-ID: <"cQvGm1.0.Dm6.Ffcsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Robin writes: >>>I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well >>>(not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though >>>"oxyginos" might be possible?). >>> >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Robin van Spaandonk >> >>I would have thought the same or similar. In other words, if H can be >>shrunk, then just about anything could be. > >***{Hydrogen and helium atoms in their ground state configurations have no >electron shells below their outer shells. If, therefore, you wedge a >hydrogen or helium atom into a location (e.g., a Pd lattice) which is too >small for the electrons to orbit at the ground state radius, it seems >reasonable that they might spiral down into the unstable, classical orbits >nearer to the nucleus. (Some of which Mills believes to be stable.) >However, there are no other atoms for which that is true. Oxygen, for >example, has 3 shells, and if an oxygen atom were forced into a lattice >which was too tight to accomodate the 6 m-shell electrons, repulsion from >the l-shell would tend to prevent the m-shell electrons from spiraling into >lower orbits. ***{Oops! Mental glitch alert! Oxygen has two shells! Nevertheless, the point stands: lower shells are present, tending to support the outer shells, preventing shrinkage. --MJ}*** Result: there would be a deformation of the lattice at that >location, rather than a shrinkage of the oxygen atom. Such considerations >suggest that the possibility of "shrunken atoms" may be limited to hydrogen >(protium, deuterium, and tritium) and, possibly, to helium. The main issue >when discriminating between "shrunken atom" theories, therefore, is simply >this: are there stable orbits below the ground state in hydrogen and >helium. If so, the hydrino theory applies; if not, we are left with the >protoneutron theory. In my view, therefore, everything depends on whether >or not Mills can demonstrate the existence of his novel hydrino compounds. >--MJ}*** > >The spectral data would be able >>to tell, I would think, but so far, all we have heard about is the shrinking >>of H. Any more wild speculators out there? >> >>Knuke >> >>Michael T. Huffman >>Huffman Technology Company >>1121 Dustin Drive >>The Villages, Florida 32159 >>(352)259-1276 >>knuke LCIA.COM >>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > >__________________________________ >"Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are >dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, >they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never >denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big >deal?" --Jed Rothwell __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 11:12:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25794; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:09:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:09:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:07:38 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: A joke? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vye3e2.0.xI6.clcsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Is this post a humor? See notes...... Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:38:38 -0500 From: Michael T Huffman Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Robin writes: >>-Steve >However other atoms do have S sub-shells which according to QM are >spherical. Could I be forgiven for thinking that these might be susceptible >to shrinkage? Impossible to expand or shrink spheres? Spherical... egg shaped shell shaped... only in ther math ... > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Yes, and I'm wondering about the "amorphous iron" and other particles that Suslick is claiming to produce. The copper that Hamdix has just reported on should have some weird spectral data, as well as the strange behaviors. Is anyone here qualified in the math well enough to predict if these shrunken states are possible in other materials using Mills' theories. Also, how would the meta-Mu metals Really? What IS a "meta-Mu metal" ... a non stable material in which the permeability goes upy downey? that Hamdi has presented possibly be translated by Mills' theory? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 11:21:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03525; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:18:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:18:25 -0800 Message-ID: <38DA6C2D.C20690A5 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:10:58 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8 earthtech.org> <3.0.1.32.20000323104721.01397f7c@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rXxhv2.0.vs._tcsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 09:25 AM 3/23/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Scott, > > > >If I understand the parameters, the voltage changed from of 3.5V (1.6+1.9) to > >-0.3 V (1.6-1.9). > > That's not how I understood it. Here's the quote again: > > "The current voltage parameters for Experiment #2 were an periodic > square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 > volts; a peak constant current of 47.3 mA; a 36% duty cycle; and a > frequency of 600 Hz." > > On page 479, there's a data table which lists the following data for that > experiment (my apologies for not including this info earlier): > > V: 1.90 volts > Duty cycle: 36% > I: 0.0473 amps > VI Power: .032 watts > (V-1.48)I Input Power: 0.007 watts > Output power: 0.114 watts > Excess power: 0.107 watts > Output/Input: 1630% > > >From these numbers we can see that the actual cell voltage was only 1.90 > volts and, at that voltage, the cell drew 0.0473 amps. That give a peak > V*I of 90 milliwatts which, with the 36% duty cycle, yields a net V*I of 32 > milliwatts. At this very low cell voltage, look how important the > assumption of zero recombination becomes! However, even if there was 100% > recombination, this experiment would still have shown a .114/.032 or 356% > Pout/Pin ratio. > > So the voltage applied to the cell apparently varied between 1.60 and 1.90. This certainly changes things. I assume no current flowed at 1.6 V. As a result, the cell resistance went from infinity to 40 ohms over a range of 0.3 V. This is a strange behavior based on my experience. In the paper published in Fusion Technol. 20 (1991) 65, they give the voltage range as 2.2 V to 2.75 V with a peak current of 175 mA. These values make more sense. I also suggest that it is impossible to accurately measure heat at the 100 mW level using the type of calorimeter described by Mills as I explain below. Scott, I strongly suggest that in addition to measuring delta T between the >fluid and the outside of the dewar, you also measure delta T between the inner >surface of the lid and its outer surface, for both the active and reference >cell. Only this type of measurement will give you an accurate measurement of >heat production without altering the basic design. Please explain. Is this concern based upon the idea that the primary heat leak is through the lid? Yes. The lid will be the main thermal barrier across which the delta T must be known. When the fluid temperature is used as the inner T, several errors are introduced. First of all, temperature gradients will exist within the fluid even when it is stirred. These gradients will be different between the heater calibration and when electrolysis is occurring. Second, a variable temperature gradient will occur within the gas which adds to the delta T across the lid. The only solution is to fix the outer lid temperature using a water-cooled jacket and measure the inner lid temperature at an inert metal plate attached to the inner surface. I have explored this problem in some detail and can show you data if you wish. However, this would involve sending some large files which most people on Vortex might not appreciate. >I also suggest that use of >a reference cell can not be trusted because its characteristics can not be >made identical to the active cell. If you are interested, I can discuss this >problem with you privately. This is an important point, Ed. Please provide a brief outline of your concerns for the list. Because of the behaviors described above, two cells using fluid temperature as the inner temperature of the thermal barrier can not be made identical. Differences in convection and stirring will make the apparent temperature of the fluid change in unexpected ways. As a result, these two cells will drift in unexpected ways. Because, excess power is calculated by taking the difference between two large numbers, these drifts can become important. This is not to say that the use of reference cells is not correct. Such methods can give good results, but a proper design must be used. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 11:41:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11453; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:38:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:38:40 -0800 Message-ID: <38DA7361.7AB22EB6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:41:43 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gj1RD.0.to2.0Bdsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Robin writes: > >>I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well > >>(not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though > >>"oxyginos" might be possible?). > >> > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>Robin van Spaandonk > > > >I would have thought the same or similar. In other words, if H can be > >shrunk, then just about anything could be. > > ***{Hydrogen and helium atoms in their ground state configurations have no > electron shells below their outer shells. If, therefore, you wedge a > hydrogen or helium atom into a location (e.g., a Pd lattice) which is too > small for the electrons to orbit at the ground state radius, it seems > reasonable that they might spiral down into the unstable, classical orbits > nearer to the nucleus. (Some of which Mills believes to be stable.) > However, there are no other atoms for which that is true. Oxygen, for > example, has 3 shells, and if an oxygen atom were forced into a lattice > which was too tight to accomodate the 6 m-shell electrons, repulsion from > the l-shell would tend to prevent the m-shell electrons from spiraling into > lower orbits. Result: there would be a deformation of the lattice at that > location, rather than a shrinkage of the oxygen atom. Such considerations > suggest that the possibility of "shrunken atoms" may be limited to hydrogen > (protium, deuterium, and tritium) and, possibly, to helium. The main issue > when discriminating between "shrunken atom" theories, therefore, is simply > this: are there stable orbits below the ground state in hydrogen and > helium. If so, the hydrino theory applies; if not, we are left with the > protoneutron theory. In my view, therefore, everything depends on whether > or not Mills can demonstrate the existence of his novel hydrino compounds. Mitchell, have you forgotten how chemistry works? When atoms form structures, the electrons move and occupy states which are common to the neighboring atoms. Therefore, there is no such thing as a space too small. If an atom can reduce its energy, it will move into any size space by giving up some of its electrons to the surrounding atoms and room will be made. Hydrogen, for example, gives up most of its electron when dissolving in Pd and has no need to shift it to a smaller orbit. Indeed, the concept of an orbit is only part of our mathematical construct and not necessarily how the electron actually behaves. However, there is a problem when the hydrino is proposed to form a chemical compound with a normal atom. Where does this abnormal electron go when it interacts to form a compound? What energy levels are available in K, for example, which the abnormal electron can occupy? If these levels are available to the electron from the reduced hydrogen, why can't they be occupied by electrons from the K caused by its individual reduction? Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 12:25:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26294; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:18:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:18:45 -0800 Message-ID: <38DA7B51.105F skylink.net> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:15:13 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Class off Materials with negative Eps and Mu References: <38D93D9F.E6A0666C verisoft.com.tr> <38de7232.357816753@mail.midiowa.net> <38D977BC.731AABBA@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_abyT2.0.kQ6.amdsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hamdi ucar wrote: > See search result form LANL archive of Jonh Pendry papers, the physicist > supplying the theory. > http://arXiv.org/find/cond-mat/1/AND+au:+J+au:+Pendry/0/1/0/all/0/1 Thanks Hamdi. The article attached was noted recently by Sven Schmidt on the greenglow discussion list. It may to be related. The finding of negative electromagnetic constants is a curious thing. It gives the unusual result that volumes of negative energy density can be developed in an EM field -- 1/2(D)dot(E), where D is opposite the direction of E. A similar thing can be seen in analysis of chiral fields -- helicity density in the field. Helicity is a pseudo-scalar (scalar with handedness). Scalar helicity density has the dimensions of a mass-moment per cubic meter. Something that looks like an embedded mass-dipole moment. Mass/energy polarization. Or more clearly, the properties of scalar helicity can be seen in the equivalent dimensions of angular momentum per velocity per cubic meter. Helicity exists whenever there is an angular momentum vector which is parallel to the velocity vector -- i.e. rotation around the velocity vector, resulting in a helical flow of mass/energy. It could be that the finding of negative electromagnetic constants is an artifact of using an essentially flat space, two dimensional vector analysis of a transverse EM wave, rather than geometrical analysis of the topological connections due to flux linkages and twistedness in the EM wave described with longitudinal as well as transverse field components. Anyhow. More to work on. CHIRAL ELECTROMAGNETIC OBJECTS Download .pdf file (259Kb) http://ufn.ioc.ac.ru:8100/ufn97/ufn97_11/ufn9711c.pdf B.Z. Katsenelenbaum Institute of Radio Engineering and Electronics, Russian Academy of Sciences, ul. Mokhovaya 11, 103907 Moscow, Russia Tel. (7-095) 203-4836 Fax (7-095) 203-8414 E.N. Korshunova, A.N. Sivov, A.D. Shatrov Institute of Radio Engineering and Electronics, Russian Academy of Sciences, pl. Vvedenskogo 1, 141120 Fryazino, Moscow Region, Russia Tel. (7-095) 526-9266 Fax (7-095) 203-8414 A review is presented of some recent theoretical results in the research and development work on artificial spatially dispersive media and on structures possessing chiral properties in the microwave range. The results discussed are mainly obtained for chiral objects taken in the form of long helices of small radius to wavelength ratio, and of lattices of such helices. These structures display strong polarization-selective resonance effects which give rise to a rich variety of electrodynamic properties. PACS numbers: 41.20.Jb, 42.25.Ja, 78.90.+t, 84.40.Cb Bibliography - 36 references Received 29 May 1997 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 13:02:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07850; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:53:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:53:58 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A joke? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:39:00 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <000ldss4laohgkrt9hd3bmn0uch2nsosco 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA07689 Resent-Message-ID: <"_NzC4.0.Uw1.aHesu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:07:38 -0500 (EST), John Schnurer wrote: > > > Is this post a humor? No, not really. [snip] >Robin writes: >>>-Steve >>However other atoms do have S sub-shells which according to QM are >>spherical. Could I be forgiven for thinking that these might be susceptible >>to shrinkage? > > Impossible to expand or shrink spheres? > > > Spherical... egg shaped shell shaped... only in ther math ... John, have you read the previous couple of posts in this thread? What I wrote was a logical successor. It isn't clear to me what your objection is, so how about a BBGB explanation? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 13:12:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13217; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:03:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:03:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:02:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DA5950.D09868D4 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2NwUG2.0.KE3.yQesu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >No, you misunderstand. The issue is not the amount of recombination but how >much hydrino formation takes place relative to transmutation production. This >ratio can be determined by measuring the amount of H2 and O2 produced. So he claims there is actually a macroscopic, measurable level of "excess oxygen." Huh. I knew he collects what he judges to be hydrinos, but I did not realize there are enough of them to affect the gas balance measurably. I gather they do not form hydrino-oxide a.k.a. funny shrunken water. They cannot share electrons? I wonder how he makes hydrino chemicals. I believe the gist of your other comments are that the published Mills design is not optimized according to his own theory. Assuming he is right, you see ways to improve the hardware to fit his theories. Perhaps Mills is one of these people like Shockley, who is better at theories than designing or building hardware. (Bardeen & Brittain did the hardware.) I hope he has hired talented experimentalists. Despite your reservations about the design, I think Scott Little is wise to make this a "high fidelity" close replication. If he fails -- or even if he succeeds -- he can try your suggestions in the next round. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 14:30:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11704; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:23:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:23:43 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:23:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <406ldsccbg40sur213pgsk48pnucfeok8t 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000323104721.01397f7c@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000323104721.01397f7c earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA11637 Resent-Message-ID: <"Lq3OP.0.ls2.kbfsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:47:21 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 09:25 AM 3/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Scott, >> >>If I understand the parameters, the voltage changed from of 3.5V (1.6+1.9) to >>-0.3 V (1.6-1.9). > >That's not how I understood it. Here's the quote again: > >"The current voltage parameters for Experiment #2 were an periodic >square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.60 volts; a peak voltage of 1.90 If the "peak voltage" is a voltage relative to ground (rather than relative to the offset), then the voltage varies between 1.3 volt and 1.9 volt, with an average (or offset) at 1.6 volt. This means that the lower voltage (1.3 volts) is well below 1.48 volt, and hence one might expect that current flow would be very low indeed. >volts; a peak constant current of 47.3 mA; a 36% duty cycle; and a >frequency of 600 Hz." > >On page 479, there's a data table which lists the following data for that >experiment (my apologies for not including this info earlier): > >V: 1.90 volts Which explains why 1.9 volts is used here. >Duty cycle: 36% >I: 0.0473 amps >VI Power: .032 watts >(V-1.48)I Input Power: 0.007 watts >Output power: 0.114 watts >Excess power: 0.107 watts >Output/Input: 1630% > >From these numbers we can see that the actual cell voltage was only 1.90 >volts and, at that voltage, the cell drew 0.0473 amps. That give a peak Correct. >V*I of 90 milliwatts which, with the 36% duty cycle, yields a net V*I of 32 >milliwatts. At this very low cell voltage, look how important the >assumption of zero recombination becomes! However, even if there was 100% >recombination, this experiment would still have shown a .114/.032 or 356% >Pout/Pin ratio. > >So the voltage applied to the cell apparently varied between 1.60 and 1.90. See above. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 14:32:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13383; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:26:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:26:43 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:26:21 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb 4ax.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DA455A.17EEE0A6 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA13358 Resent-Message-ID: <"E09Wn.0.1H3.Wefsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:25:09 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >trying to achieve? If I were trying to deposit K and H together on a surface, >I would not want the potential ever to go negative, because this would allow >the deposited K to be redissolved by the liquid. In addition, I would want the >current to have a steady, large value to allow deposition of K to take place as >fast as possible, a process which is very slow compared to deposition of H. Note Mills' process is mediated by K+, not by K, hence he has no interest in depositing K on the cathode. >In >this cell, the concentration of K on the Ni surface is the rate determining >value. Not AFAIK, see above. >Mills seems to have done everything he can to reduce this >concentration. Consequently, this cell design makes no sense. It makes more sense, when one doesn't make false assumptions. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 14:37:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15641; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:33:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:33:55 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:33:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3h6ldss3vijsappc1jmtnf2gnojdhu31sd 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10@pop.mindspring.com> <38DA5950.D09868D4@ix.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA15613 Resent-Message-ID: <"PZB3C1.0.Jq3.Jlfsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:02:44 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >So he claims there is actually a macroscopic, measurable level of "excess >oxygen." Huh. I knew he collects what he judges to be hydrinos, but I did >not realize there are enough of them to affect the gas balance measurably. > >I gather they do not form hydrino-oxide a.k.a. funny shrunken water. They >cannot share electrons? I wonder how he makes hydrino chemicals. He claims that Hydrinos combine with an electron to form "hydrino-hydride", i.e. shrunken H- . Hence no "funny" water, as the Hy-H is negative not positive like an ordinary hydrogen ion. It is also for precisely this reason that I have previously suggested on this forum, that severely shrunken hydrino-hydride could make a "bee-line" for a positive nucleus resulting in fusion (the Coulomb "barrier" actually becomes an asset), or possibly fulfil the role of very heavy negative muon, as in muon catalyzed fusion. [snip] >Despite your reservations about the design, I think Scott Little is wise to >make this a "high fidelity" close replication. If he fails -- or even if he >succeeds -- he can try your suggestions in the next round. > >- Jed I agree. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 14:59:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16180; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:56:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:56:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000323175447.0079fc00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:54:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <3h6ldss3vijsappc1jmtnf2gnojdhu31sd 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <38DA5950.D09868D4 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xn_XR3.0.by3.14gsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >It is also for precisely this reason >that I have previously suggested on this forum, that severely shrunken >hydrino-hydride could make a "bee-line" for a positive nucleus resulting in >fusion (the Coulomb "barrier" actually becomes an asset), or possibly fulfil >the role of very heavy negative muon, as in muon catalyzed fusion. Wouldn't that be conventional fusion, resulting in radiation and helium? It would be easy to detect. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 15:02:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25023; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:58:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:58:45 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38DAAFE3.5E45B030 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:59:31 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <38DA7361.7AB22EB6@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZLYrz.0.h66.a6gsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: Mitchell, ... there is no such thing as a space too small. However, there is a problem when the hydrino is proposed to form a chemical compound with a normal atom. Hi Ed, These questions can only be resolved by experiment. Again, maybe Fred Sparber could propose another catalytic system for us to kick around. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 15:06:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24061; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:57:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:57:31 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:57:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <158ldsof8gv1nj4ba7m3chdgka3vr1pgv9 4ax.com> References: <024501bf9415$9e9433c0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> <02ad01bf946f$abdc85a0$ed8e1d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <02ad01bf946f$abdc85a0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA23849 Resent-Message-ID: <"CxB8M2.0.nt5.Q5gsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:29:00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >> >Aqueous Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) effects the decomposition of >> >Hydrogen Peroxide (HO-OH) to H2O + O2: >> > >> >2 HO-OH + ( K+) + (MnO4-) <---> 2 H2O + O2 + Heat >> > >> >The V2 Rocket used NaMnO4 as the H2O2 Decomposition Catalyst. >> > >> >K2CO3aq can be mixed with KMnO4aq and the H2O2aq can be added (slowly). >> > >> >Will this produce "Hydrinos" and/or "Hydrino Hydride" or such, as well as H2O + O2? >> Hi Fred, >> >> I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well >> (not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, (though >> "oxyginos" might be possible?). > >Au Contraire: > >H2O2 ---> 2 OH > >OH + H2O ---> 2 OH + H > >OH + H2 ---> H2O + H > >O + H2O ---> 2 OH > >O + H2 ---> OH + H > >OH + H2O2 ---> H2O + HO2 > >OH + HO2 ---> H2O + O2 > >Had enough? :-) Actually, I think I've had a few too many ;). How many of these reactions do you think are non-negligible? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 15:14:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29494; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:09:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:09:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:09:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA29454 Resent-Message-ID: <"6ANKt3.0.lC7.dGgsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:49:36 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >***{Hydrogen and helium atoms in their ground state configurations have no >electron shells below their outer shells. [snip] >However, there are no other atoms for which that is true. Oxygen, for >example, has 3 shells, Actually it only has two, K and L. K is fully occupied, as is L-S, while L-P is partially occupied. >and if an oxygen atom were forced into a lattice >which was too tight to accomodate the 6 m-shell electrons, repulsion from >the l-shell would tend to prevent the m-shell electrons from spiraling into >lower orbits. Suppose however that the K shell were to shrink under "pressure from above", or perhaps K-S and L-S concurrently, leaving L-P "out in the cold"? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 15:23:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA01955; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:20:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:20:38 -0800 Message-ID: <38DAA76A.FDF55EB5 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:23:25 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EVirh3.0.TU.6Rgsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >No, you misunderstand. The issue is not the amount of recombination but how > >much hydrino formation takes place relative to transmutation production. > This > >ratio can be determined by measuring the amount of H2 and O2 produced. > > So he claims there is actually a macroscopic, measurable level of "excess > oxygen." Huh. I knew he collects what he judges to be hydrinos, but I did > not realize there are enough of them to affect the gas balance measurably. No, he does not make this claim. I am saying that this will be the case if Mills is correct. No one has made such measurements. > > > I gather they do not form hydrino-oxide a.k.a. funny shrunken water. They > cannot share electrons? I wonder how he makes hydrino chemicals. That is a problem. Mills claims that the hydrino does not recombine with oxygen to make water. Therefore, the hydrino remains free to leave the cell. Maybe he has changed his attitude in recent times. If so, shrunken water should accumulate and be detectable. > > > I believe the gist of your other comments are that the published Mills > design is not optimized according to his own theory. Assuming he is right, > you see ways to improve the hardware to fit his theories. Perhaps Mills is > one of these people like Shockley, who is better at theories than designing > or building hardware. (Bardeen & Brittain did the hardware.) I hope he has > hired talented experimentalists. > > Despite your reservations about the design, I think Scott Little is wise to > make this a "high fidelity" close replication. If he fails -- or even if he > succeeds -- he can try your suggestions in the next round. I have no objection to that approach. I'm only suggesting that the apparatus be designed so that a better measurement can be made without too much trouble. Including components to measure the real temperature across the lid will not change the close replication, but will add additional information which can proof whether apparent excess energy is real or not. The worst result would be to obtain apparent excess only because of a defect in the apparatus which has been faithfully replicated. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 15:35:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06441; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:32:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:32:17 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:31:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0q9ldso6a47e74r870nei721no4rhvp4i7 4ax.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10@pop.mindspring.com> <38DA5950.D09868D4@ix.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80@pop.mindsprin g.com> <3h6ldss3vijsappc1jmtnf2gnojdhu31sd 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323175447.0079fc00@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000323175447.0079fc00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA06327 Resent-Message-ID: <"kdRkP3.0.vZ1.ubgsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:54:47 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >>It is also for precisely this reason >>that I have previously suggested on this forum, that severely shrunken >>hydrino-hydride could make a "bee-line" for a positive nucleus resulting in >>fusion (the Coulomb "barrier" actually becomes an asset), or possibly fulfil >>the role of very heavy negative muon, as in muon catalyzed fusion. > >Wouldn't that be conventional fusion, resulting in radiation and helium? It >would be easy to detect. > >- Jed Almost. It depends somewhat on how the tightly bound electrons behave when the proton is absorbed into the nucleus. Perhaps they are ejected (in which case one might expect energetic beta particles) or perhaps one or both are absorbed along with the proton, resulting in a "stimulated" electron capture reaction, with production of a neutrino. Given that such a reaction is currently unknown to nuclear physics, I suppose it's anybody's guess how much of the energy such a neutrino would carry away with it. Note also that only a very small proportion of hydrinos will actually shrink far enough (I suspect) to produce a reasonable chance of fusion. Perhaps fusion instigated by this means is responsible for the low neutron production rates occasionally reported in CF experiments? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 15:39:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06408; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:32:10 -0800 Message-ID: <38DAAA18.FEB4AB2 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:34:52 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"B_YvM.0.lZ1.tbgsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:25:09 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >trying to achieve? If I were trying to deposit K and H together on a surface, > >I would not want the potential ever to go negative, because this would allow > >the deposited K to be redissolved by the liquid. In addition, I would want the > >current to have a steady, large value to allow deposition of K to take place as > >fast as possible, a process which is very slow compared to deposition of H. > > Note Mills' process is mediated by K+, not by K, hence he has no interest in > depositing K on the cathode. Presumably, electrolysis is used because H+ and K+ are required to occupy adjacent positions on the Ni surface so that they can transfer energy. Therefore, the concentration of K is important. Obviously, the K can be on the surface either as K or K+, depending on how effectively it has bonded with the surface. In either case, the more K+ and H+ that are in contact, the more reaction will occur. > > >In > >this cell, the concentration of K on the Ni surface is the rate determining > >value. > > Not AFAIK, see above. > > >Mills seems to have done everything he can to reduce this > >concentration. Consequently, this cell design makes no sense. > > It makes more sense, when one doesn't make false assumptions. > [snip] Beware of using inadequate understanding to evaluate assumptions. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 15:39:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21576; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:31:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:31:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <38DA42C1.537376BA@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:03:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"wEo17.0.tG5.pagsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A ----- Original Message ----- From: Taylor J. Smith To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > Michael T. Huffman wrote: > > ... If H can be shrunk, then just about anything could be. > The spectral data would be able to tell, I would think, but so far, > all we have heard about is the shrinking of H. Any more wild > speculators out there? Not So. The H or D atom only Has ONE ELECTRON to contend with. Shrinking atoms with TWO OR MORE Electrons is out of the question. > > Hi Knuke, > > The same thought has been occuring to me for some time. > Maybe Fred Sparber could suggest a possible catalytic > system to make "inos" with lots of energy released and the > stabilty to make new chemical compounds. I just did (suggest) that destroyiing HO-OH in a KMNO4(aq) Catalyst Might make "new chemical compounds". East to buy KMnO4 (aq) and 40 cent bottles of 3% H2O2. I ran some yesterday and after several hours get a brownish precipitate of unknown composition. Regards, Frederick > > Jack Smith > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:45:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27423; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:38:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:38:39 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:38:17 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FE B4AB2 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DAAA18.FEB4AB2 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA27374 Resent-Message-ID: <"Z-ax13.0.Pi6.Eahsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:34:52 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >Presumably, electrolysis is used because H+ and K+ are required to occupy adjacent >positions on the Ni surface so that they can transfer energy. The transfer is between K+, K+, and H (not H+), and is a three particle reaction. It may not even be a surface reaction. The only purpose of the cathode may be in generating atomic H whether or not attached to the cathode. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:45:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27394; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:38:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:38:35 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:50:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000324005020218.AAA311 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"nF4BU3.0.xh6.Aahsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred writes: >I just did (suggest) that destroyiing HO-OH in a KMNO4(aq) Catalyst >Might make "new chemical compounds". > >East to buy KMnO4 (aq) and 40 cent bottles of 3% H2O2. > >I ran some yesterday and after several hours get a brownish precipitate of unknown composition. > >Regards, Frederick Put it in a Leyden Jar, and see if it will hold a mega-charge. If it does, we'll call it The EverFreddy. ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:49:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29757; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:44:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:44:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:44:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0ieldsgn9cmsbmmbfbtf3qn3ofko8nipro 4ax.com> References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <38DA42C1.537376BA@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA29710 Resent-Message-ID: <"bfm5B3.0.tG7.ifhsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:03:22 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >I ran some yesterday and after several hours get a brownish precipitate of unknown composition. MnO2? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:50:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29491; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:43:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:43:34 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:43:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <89elds4efvnth6g9so56j44b5mliicghee 4ax.com> References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <38DA42C1.537376BA@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA29450 Resent-Message-ID: <"v436t3.0.fC7.rehsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:03:22 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >Not So. The H or D atom only Has ONE ELECTRON to contend with. Shrinking atoms >with TWO OR MORE Electrons is out of the question. Unless I have misread Mills, this isn't necessarily true, as he has calculated the energy hole for the shrinkage of molecular hydrogen (and gives several example reactions in his book). While a molecule is not exactly the same thing as a multi-electron atom, if could be, if both electrons from the molecule occasionally spend time orbiting one of the two atoms. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:53:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31682; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:47:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:47:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000323194036.0086bbd0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:40:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: References: <38DAAA18.FEB4AB2 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8 earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6 ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb 4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FEB4AB2 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UB63.0.tk7.Hihsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:38 AM 3/24/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:34:52 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >[snip] >>Presumably, electrolysis is used because H+ and K+ are required to occupy adjacent >>positions on the Ni surface so that they can transfer energy. > >The transfer is between K+, K+, and H (not H+), and is a three particle >reaction. It may not even be a surface reaction. The only purpose of the >cathode may be in generating atomic H whether or not attached to the >cathode. Yes, Robin. and in concentrating H to very very large concentrations and activities, and in providing countercharge from the sea of electrons. [ There may also be a role of the surface species which are also effected by the cathode. ] Mitchell Swartz >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:54:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04852; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:24 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! In-Reply-To: <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26 fjsparber> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KgC6A1.0.kB1.Jnhsu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those not following the FREENRG-L thread, I've recently received a claim that the "electric rocket" plans on my website actually do produce a significant thrust as well as obvious levitation (6KG of lifting ability from a 1KG paper/foil capacitor stack powered by a VDG machine.) The person wishes to remain anonymous until others manage to replicate the effect. For updates, see: http://www.amasci.com/caps/capwarp.html http://www.amasci.com/caps/capworks.txt Also please be aware that it's claimed that the "field" along the axis of this capacitor causes the circuitry in an electronic scale to display crazy numbers, and the inventor became ill after working with the capacitor. He is certain that this is not a coincidence, and has rented a separate workshop so he can move the device out of his home lab. I've yet observed no typical clues that this is a hoax, but obviously we've seen similar claims in the past which came to nothing. "Errors of the first kind": in order avoid believing any false facts, we accept the risk of disbelieving some truths. "Errors of the second kind": in order to avoid rejecting any truths, we accept the risk of believing in some false facts. Come on you True Believers, let's focus our "provisional belief" on this thing and see if anything interesting occurs. He's going to make .AVI videos of the device when he gets a chance. Also, he's going to test a 30-layer (1/13 segment) of the 390-layer capacitor to see if it creates significant thrust in a pendulum test. If it works, then this shows an easy way to demonstrate the effect (as opposed to building the whole darned capacitor, which takes weeks of work.) Time to order more tin from the dental supply company! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:56:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02744; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:54:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:54:39 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:52:04 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3peldskr9dl2d2npgr829lmeq2eoca62r6 4ax.com> References: <20000323081828250.AAA304 mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: <20000323081828250.AAA304 mail.lcia.com@lizard> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA02708 Resent-Message-ID: <"31Tg-2.0.jg.Dphsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:18:28 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: [snip] >Couldn't you put a diode in the input line that would turn all the feedback >power to another circuit so that you could measure that? [snip] There may not be an actual reversal of current, just a change in resistance. What happens depends on exactly how the power controller feedback is designed to operate. IOW what does the feedback mechanism measure in order to maintain constant power delivery? (I.e. how does the feedback mechanism "think")? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:56:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02799; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:54:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:54:48 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Run 031800 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:54:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <54fldskeadt3gpdhjcvmh222hket474bsm 4ax.com> References: <004701bf94b2$dcc74680$a0441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <004701bf94b2$dcc74680$a0441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA02711 Resent-Message-ID: <"wYY793.0.qg.Ephsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:29:55 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >This is similar to an approach used in High Energy Physics (Free Electron Lasers)to >recover energy from particles going over the magnetic "Speed Bump". > >Feel free to do the physics. :-) How does this physically account for the drop in current? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 18:42:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA06169; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:38:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:38:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20000324023813.29214.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.118] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:38:13 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"CmBOL2.0.EW1.sKjsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A good electrostatic charge should displace enought density to raise an object, a space craft, anything, just like a hot air balloon does via gravity powered relative density displacement as I have described here and as stated in my theory. Seeing the charge, the heat, the displacement, as thrust is backwards thinking. Even the fireball on a rocket is a bubble and works just like a bubble; relative density displacement. Mother Nature abhors a vacuum but she really can't stand a void. And it all goes back to the cosmological constant, the gravity constant, Einstein was looking for till the day he died. He knew when the measurement of the angle of (so called) refraction of the condensed light in the gravity telescope did not meet his specification of 1.75 seconds of an arc that his void, curved space, light constant theory was not correct. He knew all energy of motion could be traced to gravity. Heat is static. Gravity is dynamic. David Dennard The Gravity Paradigm http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: William Beaty >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! >Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:24 -0800 (PST) > > >For those not following the FREENRG-L thread, I've recently received a >claim that the "electric rocket" plans on my website actually do produce a >significant thrust as well as obvious levitation (6KG of lifting ability >from a 1KG paper/foil capacitor stack powered by a VDG machine.) The >person wishes to remain anonymous until others manage to replicate the >effect. For updates, see: > > http://www.amasci.com/caps/capwarp.html > http://www.amasci.com/caps/capworks.txt > >Also please be aware that it's claimed that the "field" along the axis of >this capacitor causes the circuitry in an electronic scale to display >crazy numbers, and the inventor became ill after working with the >capacitor. He is certain that this is not a coincidence, and has rented a >separate workshop so he can move the device out of his home lab. > >I've yet observed no typical clues that this is a hoax, but obviously >we've seen similar claims in the past which came to nothing. > > "Errors of the first kind": in order avoid believing any false facts, we > accept the risk of disbelieving some truths. > > "Errors of the second kind": in order to avoid rejecting any truths, we > accept the risk of believing in some false facts. > >Come on you True Believers, let's focus our "provisional belief" on this >thing and see if anything interesting occurs. > >He's going to make .AVI videos of the device when he gets a chance. >Also, he's going to test a 30-layer (1/13 segment) of the 390-layer >capacitor to see if it creates significant thrust in a pendulum test. If >it works, then this shows an easy way to demonstrate the effect (as >opposed to building the whole darned capacitor, which takes weeks of >work.) > >Time to order more tin from the dental supply company! > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 20:04:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29219; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:56:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:56:15 -0800 Message-Id: <200003240324.WAA14587 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:19:49 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cjpns3.0.T87.TTksu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > For those not following the FREENRG-L thread, I've recently received a > claim that the "electric rocket" plans on my website actually do produce a > significant thrust as well as obvious levitation (6KG of lifting ability > from a 1KG paper/foil capacitor stack powered by a VDG machine.) This is what bothers me...a standard VDG, assuming he's not using a smaller one, should produce very high voltages, say >100kV. With the design he is showing, it would seem like there would be significant arc over between capacitor plates...also, a couple layers of wax paper isn't a strong dielectric. It should be easy to pierce with an arc. I also note that the original article says to use a strong battery or series of auto/lantern batteries...that doesn't seem like it would give the voltage of a VDG... I'm stumped. Right now, I doubt the device works, but I won't say it doesn't. If it does, that's great! If it doesn't, we'll try something else. Just my two cents, or one half penny, as some of my friends think it to be. :) --Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 20:34:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06651; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:25:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:25:25 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:37:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20000324043730765.AAA233 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"A31KE.0.hd1.quksu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yo Bill! >Also please be aware that it's claimed that the "field" along the axis of >this capacitor causes the circuitry in an electronic scale to display >crazy numbers, and the inventor became ill after working with the >capacitor. He is certain that this is not a coincidence, and has rented a >separate workshop so he can move the device out of his home lab. I meant to reply to this earlier, but on the FreeNRG report you said that this guy got ill from working on it *in his basement*. Since this is the most likely place in a normal house to accumulate Radon, perhaps that is the problem. A Radon detection protocol could be used in his basement to verify that. Happy Flying! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 22:37:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10600; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:35:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:35:33 -0800 Message-ID: <00ff01bf952e$7a4a7f00$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <024501bf9415$9e9433c0$ed8e1d26 fjsparber> <02ad01bf946f$abdc85a0$ed8e1d26@fjsparber> <158ldsof8gv1nj4ba7m3chdgka3vr1pgv9@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:15:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"7-1N62.0.Tb2.qomsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Robin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:29:00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > > > >Au Contraire: > > > >H2O2 ---> 2 OH > > > >OH + H2O ---> 2 OH + H > > > >OH + H2 ---> H2O + H > > > >O + H2O ---> 2 OH > > > >O + H2 ---> OH + H > > > >OH + H2O2 ---> H2O + HO2 > > > >OH + HO2 ---> H2O + O2 > > > >Had enough? :-) > > Actually, I think I've had a few too many ;). How many of these reactions do > you think are non-negligible? Good question. 2 H2O2 + KMnO4 Catalyst ---> 2 H2O + O2 is not as simple as the equation would have you think. In the reaction 2 H2 + O2 ---> 2 H2O there are 14 measured "possible" steps. Free Radical Chain Reactions are a bit iffy to predict, but great for "killing" Pathogens in sterilizers. Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 22:42:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10570; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:35:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:35:31 -0800 Message-ID: <010f01bf9534$b3fb6ba0$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <38DA42C1.537376BA@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26@fjsparber> <0ieldsgn9cmsbmmbfbtf3qn3ofko8nipro@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:00:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zl2HS1.0.4b2.oomsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Robin wrote: > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:03:22 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >I ran some yesterday and after several hours get a brownish precipitate of unknown composition. > > MnO2? Most likely, but who knows? The water went almost clear with a very slight greenish tint, Potassium Manganate K2MnO4, I presume. Interesting effect between MnO2 and H2O2: 1, H2O2 + MnO2 ---> MnO + H2O + O2 (exothermic) 2, H2O2 + MnO ---> MnO2 + H2O (exothermic) I guess that is why MnO2 is such a good H2O2 "destroyer" catalyst. Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 22:59:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16478; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:56:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:56:28 -0800 Message-ID: <20000324065550.5027.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.25] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:55:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"YMpib2.0.O14.R6nsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The atmosphere displaced will cause illness due to lack of oxygen. Same repots in close UFO encounters. No air to breath. All explained by the comsmological constant, the Gravity Paradigm. David >From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! >Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:37:30 -0500 > >Yo Bill! > >Also please be aware that it's claimed that the "field" along the axis of > >this capacitor causes the circuitry in an electronic scale to display > >crazy numbers, and the inventor became ill after working with the > >capacitor. He is certain that this is not a coincidence, and has rented >a > >separate workshop so he can move the device out of his home lab. > >I meant to reply to this earlier, but on the FreeNRG report you said that >this guy got ill from working on it *in his basement*. Since this is the >most likely place in a normal house to accumulate Radon, perhaps that is >the >problem. A Radon detection protocol could be used in his basement to >verify >that. > >Happy Flying! > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 23:04:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA18495; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:02:31 -0800 Message-ID: <011701bf9537$aa31e600$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <004701bf94b2$dcc74680$a0441d26 fjsparber> <54fldskeadt3gpdhjcvmh222hket474bsm@4ax.com> Subject: Re: H2K: Run 031800 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:21:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"U4-Zh.0.pW4.6Cnsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 4:54 PM Subject: Re: H2K: Run 031800 Robin wrote: > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:29:55 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >This is similar to an approach used in High Energy Physics (Free Electron Lasers)to > >recover energy from particles going over the magnetic "Speed Bump". > > > >Feel free to do the physics. :-) > How does this physically account for the drop in current? The "Ballast String" feeding the discharge tube is 16, 120 volt 15 watt light bulbs with a hot resistance, R = 120^2/15 = 960 ohms each ~ = 15 Kohms. The "normal" discharge tube resistance 20 watts ~ = 453volts/0.062 amps ~ = 7,300 ohms with the power bucked down to 5 watts 459 volts and 0.012 amps R ~ = 459volts/0.012 amps = 38,250 ohms. As I stated ~ 3E13 10 mev positively charged fission fragments/sec (~ 5.0 microampers) going against the esimated 5 million volt/meter positive field of the cathode fall barrier with energy dissipation in the positive column could easily account for the 25 watt OU energy and temperature rise. Retarding fields are also used in nuclear batteries but they don't use 1,000 Curie sources to get 25 watts. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 00:38:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04576; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:37:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:37:30 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <9d.36020f2.260c8322 aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:36:50 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"yGtok3.0.L71.Abosu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/23/00 4:56:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:18:28 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: > [snip] > >Couldn't you put a diode in the input line that would turn all the feedback > >power to another circuit so that you could measure that? > [snip] > There may not be an actual reversal of current, just a change in resistance. > What happens depends on exactly how the power controller feedback is > designed to operate. IOW what does the feedback mechanism measure in order > to maintain constant power delivery? > (I.e. how does the feedback mechanism "think")? > > Regards, > Robin van Spaandonk OK Robin, I'll give it a try. The Texmate meter provides an analog output of zero to ten volts and can be scaled to any wattage I want. It is presently scaled for zero to sixty watts. IOW, at a 30 watt reading on the Texmate, the analog output would be 5 volts. The analog output goes to each end of a 10 Kohm pot. The wiper goes to the plus input of the Watlow control input and the common end of the pot goes to the Watlow minus control input. At a zero watt reading on the Texmate, the analog output is 10 volts. This would tell the Watlow to go to full power were it not for the 10 Kohm pot which is ( hopefully ) set at startup to send zero volts to the Watlow. I then advance the pot to the desired wattage on the display and it holds. At a 60 watts reading on the Texmate, the output is zero volts. This way when power starts to increase, the control voltage drops towards zero volts, reducing the power the Watlow sends to the HVPS primary, if the tube starts drawing less power, the analog voltage increases and the Watlow controller sends more power to the HVPS primary. A very simple negative feedback loop. The Texmate meter samples tube voltage and current 7 times per second multiplying ( I x V ), displaying the result on the panel and generating the isolated analog voltage that goes through the pot to the Watlow controller. I have Simpson 260 (20Kohm per volt) meter that monitors the analog voltage. The Simpson meter is permanently connected to the Texmate analog line. Works pretty well except for minor problem at high wattage's, >50 watts, where the delay built in to the Watlow controller sometimes sets up an oscillation at about 0.5 to 1 Hz. This is easy to spot though and backing off the pot a bit will quiet thing down. This has only happened when I tried to blast a cold tube with high power at >100 torr fill, never in the 10 to 40 torr range I normally run. I hope that explains it, if not, additional queries cheerfully answered. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html H2K Glow Discharge Experiment From weirdsci-announce-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 23 16:59:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04830; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:24 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! In-Reply-To: <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26 fjsparber> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KgC6A1.0.JB1.Gnhsu" mx2> Resent-From: weirdsci-announce eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/81 X-Loop: weirdsci-announce eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: weirdsci-announce-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those not following the FREENRG-L thread, I've recently received a claim that the "electric rocket" plans on my website actually do produce a significant thrust as well as obvious levitation (6KG of lifting ability from a 1KG paper/foil capacitor stack powered by a VDG machine.) The person wishes to remain anonymous until others manage to replicate the effect. For updates, see: http://www.amasci.com/caps/capwarp.html http://www.amasci.com/caps/capworks.txt Also please be aware that it's claimed that the "field" along the axis of this capacitor causes the circuitry in an electronic scale to display crazy numbers, and the inventor became ill after working with the capacitor. He is certain that this is not a coincidence, and has rented a separate workshop so he can move the device out of his home lab. I've yet observed no typical clues that this is a hoax, but obviously we've seen similar claims in the past which came to nothing. "Errors of the first kind": in order avoid believing any false facts, we accept the risk of disbelieving some truths. "Errors of the second kind": in order to avoid rejecting any truths, we accept the risk of believing in some false facts. Come on you True Believers, let's focus our "provisional belief" on this thing and see if anything interesting occurs. He's going to make .AVI videos of the device when he gets a chance. Also, he's going to test a 30-layer (1/13 segment) of the 390-layer capacitor to see if it creates significant thrust in a pendulum test. If it works, then this shows an easy way to demonstrate the effect (as opposed to building the whole darned capacitor, which takes weeks of work.) Time to order more tin from the dental supply company! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 06:10:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA03137; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:08:33 -0800 Message-Id: <200003241408.JAA23821 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:09:49 CST From: John N Reply-to: John N To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: J Street Mailer (build 98.6.3) Subject: Bubble Chamber Resent-Message-ID: <"XbaKQ3.0.um.XRtsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I'm hoping it's time to make the connection from the bubble chamber to cold fusion inter alia. The standard positron - electron pair, bubble chamber photograph is of mirror image spirals branching left and right from a common origin. The opposite direction for the particles is caused by the magnetic field acting on opposite charges. The formation is initiated by a > 1.02 MeV gamma. It is understood that a photon cannot spontaneously become a positron and an electron because that violates conservation of linear momentum. This is seen as obvious because there always exists a coordinate system which can transform the particle momentum to zero, but not that of the photon. The hidden participant in the process must be a particle, perhaps an electron but often (at least) a nucleus. (All this is standard text material.) The bubble chamber contains liquid hydrogen. (Purity level unknown but the logic is the same for either hydrogen or the impurity.) The logic is that the gamma initially strikes a proton and just a bit later the pair emerge. The point is this: 1. The proton must recoil with the Mev energy it has been given. Note that this energy in a proton is sufficient to approach another proton to 'binding level distances' should such exist. (That is also of course E = mc**2 energy for two electrons.) 2. Suppose this proton approaches another H or H2 (which it must, because a 1Mev proton does not produce pair creation in vacuum). 3. p + (p+e) - - > (p - p -e) or (p - e - p) Pair production is stimulated by association of the energetic proton with an abnormal association since all known normal associations do not produce positrons. There is nothing else in there except H2 and impurities. If the positron arises without magic, it arises from that formation OR (impurity_catalyst - p) + e. Same reaction, different host. The p - e - p is far more interesting here. The point is that the two proton one electron system manifests two coulombic attractions to the electron. Calculated energies for such would yield 2x 13.6 eV, a value also produced from a fractional energy level of 1/2. So 'a fractional state 1/2' may arise from a double attraction where one attraction was expected. 4a. (p-e) + p - - > (p - p - e) or (p - e - p) 4b. p - p - e - - > p - p - abnormal_e - - > p - p - (e+) which is repelled from p - p and attracted to an electron, and then spiraled by the magnetic field. (There's nothing else in there.) Notice that a system (p + e+) would also manifest a double binding to an electron should there exist a stable environment, perhaps nestled into Pd outer electrons, and a mechanism whereby it could be produced there. Notice that the positron forms when exposed to an abnormal field strength in the presence of a nucleus. Caveat: There is ultimately a size misunderstanding which will be clarified later. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 06:10:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA03183; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:08:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:08:41 -0800 Message-Id: <200003241408.JAA23837 mail.lynxus.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:09:56 CST From: John N Reply-to: John N To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: J Street Mailer (build 98.6.3) Subject: RE: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Resent-Message-ID: <"qfOVp2.0.fn.eRtsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Huffman writes: >>Robin writes: >>I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well >>(not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, >>(though >"oxyginos" might be possible?). >> >> >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >>I would have thought the same or similar. In other words, if H can be >>shrunk, then just about anything could be. The spectral data would be able >>to tell, I would think, but so far, all we have heard about is the > shrinking of H. Any more wild speculators out there? >Mills has said without elaborating in at least one interview that he doesn't >think other elements have hydrino-like states. It may be because H is the >only element with a spherical electron configuration--other configurations >don't scale down symmetrically in terms of momentum, charge, etc. I would >imagine he has tried before. >-Steve >>Robin van Spaandonk >However other atoms do have S sub-shells which according to QM are >spherical. Could I be forgiven for thinking that these might be susceptible >to shrinkage? The 1s sub-shells are 'active' in many cases. In particular circumstances, there is an effect, which causes a change which, in turn, causes a stronger bond. The change occurs in that electron which becomes more like the host electrons because of proximity to those electrons, but remains a visitor because of proximity to its nucleus (which then amounts to ~1s sub-shells). The effect is always present (unalike systems will be different at the outer electrons), but the change only occurs if there is sufficient difference there between host and visitor (atom or ion). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 06:45:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA16746; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:43:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:43:49 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000324195710.00b491e0 popmail.esa.lanl.gov> X-Sender: claytor popmail.esa.lanl.gov (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:57:15 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Fwd: Re: Did it go ok? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"dXd4N.0.W54.bytsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: chubb ccsalpha3.nrl.navy.mil >X-Sender: chubb ccf.nrl.navy.mil (Unverified) >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 >Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:36:37 -0500 >To: "Thomas N. Claytor" >Subject: Re: Did it go ok? > >Hi Tom, > > I think the session was useful. It was in a relatively small > room. I would say there were about 20-25 people present, including > speakers. Several people expressed genuine interest. And one very > prominent person, Mildred Dresselhaus, sat in on the last several talks > (which included yours). > > Earlier in the session, Don Gubser, who is the former Condensed > Matter Physics Division secretary and an important person at NRL, also > attended. (He told me there were other talks he interested in that > conflicted with some of the later talks in our session but expressed a > definite interest in obtaining a copy of a report that I am planning to > write.) Bob Park showed up, in an effectively symbolic way: he attended > one talk, Gene's, and left immediately afterwards. > > Ed did a great job both in presenting your talk and in reporting > his Pt work. All the talks were well-received. > > By having the dinner afterwards, followed by drinks at Dick > Oriani's, we were able to have a useful dialogue. I think that everyone > agreed that we should do the same thing next year, hopefully, with still > more speakers. (One way to initiate this is to submit suggestions for > multiple invited symposia.) Among other news, I was saddened to learn > during this time that Giuliano Preparata is seriously ill with colon > cancer. Also, John Bockris apparently has cancer. But his probably (?) > is not as serious since it can apparently be treated with radiation. > > The next day, true to form, Bob Park mentioned Pons and > Fleischmann in his "voodoo science" talk. And he claimed that they were > guilty of fraud because they had failed to report have their electrodes > analyzed for helium. Talbot responded to this by pointing out that Mike > had found 4He at levels that are commensurate with the observed heat. In > response, Bob noted that Mike had reported these results at the meeting > and that by doing this, he was using an appropriate venue for initiating > a viable scientific debate concerning the associated findings. > > Thanks for contributing, Tom! You were there in spirit. > >Cheers, > >SCOTT > > >At 01:59 AM 3/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >>I hope the recent APS session went ok, what's your impression? >>Tom. >>http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm >>Thomas N. Claytor Claytor lanl.gov >>Los Alamos National Laboratory >>ESA-MT, MS C914 >>Los Alamos NM, 87545 >>505-667-6216 voice >>505-665-7176 fax >> >>Shipping Address: >>Thomas N. Claytor >>Los Alamos National Lab >>Receiving/SM 30 >>Bikini Atoll Rd >>Los Alamos NM 87545 >>Attention: Drop Point 01S >> >> http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax Shipping Address: Thomas N. Claytor Los Alamos National Lab Receiving/SM 30 Bikini Atoll Rd Los Alamos NM 87545 Attention: Drop Point 01S From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 07:00:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22951; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:58:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:58:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38DA7361.7AB22EB6 ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:56:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Resent-Message-ID: <"E27fa.0.Uc5.QAusu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >Robin writes: >> >>I don't see any free H in these reactions, so unless O can shrink as well >> >>(not ruled out), then Mills' hydrinos should be out of the question, >>(though >> >>"oxyginos" might be possible?). >> >> >> >> >> >>Regards, >> >> >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> > >> >I would have thought the same or similar. In other words, if H can be >> >shrunk, then just about anything could be. >> >> ***{Hydrogen and helium atoms in their ground state configurations have no >> electron shells below their outer shells. If, therefore, you wedge a >> hydrogen or helium atom into a location (e.g., a Pd lattice) which is too >> small for the electrons to orbit at the ground state radius, it seems >> reasonable that they might spiral down into the unstable, classical orbits >> nearer to the nucleus. (Some of which Mills believes to be stable.) >> However, there are no other atoms for which that is true. Oxygen, for >> example, has 3 shells, and if an oxygen atom were forced into a lattice >> which was too tight to accomodate the 6 m-shell electrons, repulsion from >> the l-shell would tend to prevent the m-shell electrons from spiraling into >> lower orbits. Result: there would be a deformation of the lattice at that >> location, rather than a shrinkage of the oxygen atom. Such considerations >> suggest that the possibility of "shrunken atoms" may be limited to hydrogen >> (protium, deuterium, and tritium) and, possibly, to helium. The main issue >> when discriminating between "shrunken atom" theories, therefore, is simply >> this: are there stable orbits below the ground state in hydrogen and >> helium. If so, the hydrino theory applies; if not, we are left with the >> protoneutron theory. In my view, therefore, everything depends on whether >> or not Mills can demonstrate the existence of his novel hydrino compounds. > >Mitchell, have you forgotten how chemistry works? When atoms form structures, >the electrons move and occupy states which are common to the neighboring >atoms. >Therefore, there is no such thing as a space too small. ***{One need not invoke such a silly notion in order to account for the fact that Pd loading is possible. I simply left out the word "loaded," that's all. I should have said: "If, therefore, you wedge a hydrogen or helium atom into a location (e.g., a LOADED Pd lattice) which is too small for the electrons to orbit at the ground state radius, it seems reasonable that they might spiral down into the unstable, classical orbits nearer to the nucleus." I didn't intend to imply that there isn't enough room in the unit cells of palladium to permit loading. There is room for a very precise, snug fit. But there is only room for one ground state hydrogen per octagonal unit cell. Thus when a proton meets an electron in a region of palladium that has already been loaded, there isn't enough room for the electron to orbit at the inner Bohr radius. Result: it spirals down into the lower, classical orbits, due to collisions with the nearby electron shells, giving up energy to the lattice in the form of phonons (heat). The only substantive question here is whether, as it spirals down, it finds an occasional stable orbit below the ground state. According to the "hydrino" theory (Mills), it does; according to the "protoneutron" theory (yours truly), it doesn't. Thus the issue here is whether Mills can produce the novel hydrino compounds which he alleges to exist. Can he do it? I doubt it, but I await proof. --Mitchell Jones}*** If an atom can reduce >its energy, it will move into any size space by giving up some of its >electrons >to the surrounding atoms and room will be made. Hydrogen, for example, >gives up >most of its electron ***{We have discussed this before, Ed. As you know, I reject the use of statistical averaging processes when constructing visual models. I refuse to visualize an "average man" who, obviously, would have more than one eye but less than two, and I also refuse to visualize a hydrogen which has given up "most of its electron." Statistical analysis is a useful tool, but it is *not* appropriate to use it to construct visual models. --MJ}*** when dissolving in Pd and has no need to shift it to a >smaller orbit. ***{To repeat: I left out the word "loaded," that's all. I did not intend to imply that the hydrogen atoms had to shrink in order to accomplish loading. They do not. --MJ}*** Indeed, the concept of an orbit is only part of our mathematical >construct and not necessarily how the electron actually behaves. ***{I disagree, but I do not have time to slog through this issue again right now, so I'll leave it at that. --MJ}*** > >However, there is a problem when the hydrino is proposed to form a chemical >compound with a normal atom. Where does this abnormal electron go when it >interacts to form a compound? ***{Where does the electron of a normal hydrogen go when it interacts with other atoms to form a compound? I would assume that the electron of a hydrino would behave the same way, if the hydrino exists. --MJ}*** What energy levels are available in K, for >example, which the abnormal electron can occupy? If these levels are >available >to the electron from the reduced hydrogen, why can't they be occupied by >electrons from the K caused by its individual reduction? ***{Are you referring to the possibility of shrunken potassium? If so, I think I already answered that: you can't force the k-shell electrons of potassium down into lower orbitals because they are protected from collisions with surrounding lattice atoms by the electrons in the higher shells. Thus if, for example, you gave K atoms enough kinetic energy to shoot them into a Pd lattice, they still wouldn't shrink. They would disrupt the lattice structure instead. That's why it is only hydrogen and helium that plausibly offer the possibility of shrinkage. (That's my take on it, based on my "protoneutron" perspective. Mills may see it differently from his "hydrino" point of view. I obviously cannot speak for him.) --MJ}*** > >Ed __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 07:31:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01522; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:29:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:29:26 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:28:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Resent-Message-ID: <"4358w2.0.iN.Ldusu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:49:36 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>***{Hydrogen and helium atoms in their ground state configurations have no >>electron shells below their outer shells. >[snip] >>However, there are no other atoms for which that is true. Oxygen, for >>example, has 3 shells, > >Actually it only has two, K and L. K is fully occupied, as is L-S, while L-P >is partially occupied. ***{I know. I noticed that error shortly after launching that post, and sent out a correction at that time. Nevertheless, I'm glad to see that you are still on the alert, despite having had too many beers. :-) By the way: I noticed a newspaper article the other day which clearly indicated that there are now killer bees in Sydney, and yet the authorities there apparently didn't notice that the bees were behaving abnormally! Does that mean Australian politicians are dumber than their American counterparts? If so, you guys are in deep trouble. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >>and if an oxygen atom were forced into a lattice >>which was too tight to accomodate the 6 m-shell electrons, repulsion from >>the l-shell would tend to prevent the m-shell electrons from spiraling into >>lower orbits. > >Suppose however that the K shell were to shrink under "pressure from above", >or perhaps K-S and L-S concurrently, leaving L-P "out in the cold"? ***{I think enough has been learned from the study of impurities in crystal lattices to discount the possibility that the impurity atoms shrink under normal conditions. It is my recollection, for example, that when silicon is "doped" with atoms that do not fit, the lattice structure is disrupted. This suggests that ordinary pressures within crystal lattices are not sufficient to accomplish shrinkage, if the impurity atoms have more than one shell. Evidently, the overlying shells have a protective effect, preventing the k-shell electrons from spiraling down into the lower, classical orbits. --MJ}*** >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 07:48:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09271; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:46:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324104509.00799740 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:45:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Methane fuel cell developed at U. Penn. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RMLHx1.0.mG2.Btusu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/23/fuel.cell.enn/ "Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania have built a fuel cell that runs efficiently on readily available forms of hydrocarbon fuels such as methane and butane instead of pure hydrogen." Without a reformer, that is. I don't know how they did it . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 08:09:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA18602; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:07:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:07:52 -0800 Message-ID: <38DB9378.D21A9C66 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:10:35 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FE B4AB2 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kPmjs3.0.VY4.NBvsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:34:52 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >Presumably, electrolysis is used because H+ and K+ are required to occupy adjacent > >positions on the Ni surface so that they can transfer energy. > > The transfer is between K+, K+, and H (not H+), and is a three particle > reaction. It may not even be a surface reaction. The only purpose of the > cathode may be in generating atomic H whether or not attached to the > cathode. I find it hard to understand how energy can be transferred between ions if they are not on a surface. After all, these ions are not floating around in the solution as isolated ions. They are in a cage of H2O which isolates them from each other. In any case, like charges repel so that two K+ will not be very close to each other in any case. Regardless of how much faith a person must have in the possibility of the Mills reaction, basic chemistry must still apply and his reaction must still operate in the real world. Ed > > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 08:48:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30862; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:45:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:45:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:44:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DAA76A.FDF55EB5 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YfyAK3.0.0Y7.fkvsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:23 PM 3/23/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Jed Rothwell wrote: >> Despite your reservations about the design, I think Scott Little is wise to >> make this a "high fidelity" close replication. If he fails -- or even if he >> succeeds -- he can try your suggestions in the next round. > >I have no objection to that approach. I'm only suggesting that the apparatus >be designed so that a better measurement can be made without too much trouble. >Including components to measure the real temperature across the lid will not >change the close replication, but will add additional information which can >proof whether apparent excess energy is real or not. The worst result would be >to obtain apparent excess only because of a defect in the apparatus which has >been faithfully replicated. Ed, rest assured that, if I see Mills' large excess heat, I'll be all over this potential problem you point out. However, my calculations indicate that only about 30% of the heat leaves thru the 3/4" styrofoam lid in this experiment. I used the Stefan-Boltzman radiation law to predict the heat lost thru the exposed portion of the Dewar walls and compared it to the heat conducted thru the Styrofoam lid. To get the results to match Mills' reported 41C/watt overall cell constant (I bought the exact same Dewar he used), I had to fudge the emissivity of the Dewar's silvered surfaces to 0.115, which, although a bit higher than the CRC handbook's 0.07 value, seems like a reasonable effective value (a Dewar's vacuum isn't perfect and the inner glass vessel is connected to the outer glass vessel at the top. The gas-filled head space that separates the lid from the electrolyte should further reduce the total fraction of the heat that escapes thru the lid. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 11:24:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19287; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:21:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:21:47 -0800 Message-ID: <38DBC01A.EEFAA68D ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:21:12 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZSzK71.0.Cj4.A1ysu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > > Ed, rest assured that, if I see Mills' large excess heat, I'll be all over > this potential problem you point out. > > However, my calculations indicate that only about 30% of the heat leaves > thru the 3/4" styrofoam lid in this experiment. I used the Stefan-Boltzman > radiation law to predict the heat lost thru the exposed portion of the > Dewar walls and compared it to the heat conducted thru the Styrofoam lid. > To get the results to match Mills' reported 41C/watt overall cell constant > (I bought the exact same Dewar he used), I had to fudge the emissivity of > the Dewar's silvered surfaces to 0.115, which, although a bit higher than > the CRC handbook's 0.07 value, seems like a reasonable effective value (a > Dewar's vacuum isn't perfect and the inner glass vessel is connected to the > outer glass vessel at the top. > > The gas-filled head space that separates the lid from the electrolyte > should further reduce the total fraction of the heat that escapes thru the > lid. Scott, I can not emphasize this too much. The Mills calorimeter design will give the WRONG answer. The problem involves temperature gradients. When a heater is used to calibrate, gradients will be present in the liquid even if it stirred. On the other hand, when electrolysis is used, bubbles will reduce these gradients, although not much in Mills' case.. As a result, the same calibration constant will not exist during calibration and during the experiment. With the very small amount of excess being claimed, this problem will be significant. To demonstrate this assertion, I suggest you study the cell first using an inert (from Mill's perspective) cathode-electrolyte combination and see if applied electrolytic power gives the same calibration constant as the heater. Based on my experience with dewars, the radiation loss you calculate is much too large. I suggest most of the heat is being lost through the lid and the wires. Ed > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 12:17:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04088; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:12:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324150223.007c9db0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:02:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DBC01A.EEFAA68D ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4mX9s3.0.m_.fmysu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:21 PM 3/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > Scott Little wrote: >> Ed, rest assured that, if I see Mills' large excess heat, I'll be all over >> this potential problem you point out. >> >> However, my calculations indicate that only about 30% of the heat leaves >> thru the 3/4" styrofoam lid in this experiment. I used the Stefan-Boltzman >> radiation law to predict the heat lost thru the exposed portion of the >> Dewar walls and compared it to the heat conducted thru the Styrofoam lid. >> To get the results to match Mills' reported 41C/watt overall cell constant >> (I bought the exact same Dewar he used), I had to fudge the emissivity of >> the Dewar's silvered surfaces to 0.115, which, although a bit higher than >> the CRC handbook's 0.07 value, seems like a reasonable effective value (a >> Dewar's vacuum isn't perfect and the inner glass vessel is connected to the >> outer glass vessel at the top. >> >> The gas-filled head space that separates the lid from the electrolyte >> should further reduce the total fraction of the heat that escapes thru the >> lid. > >Scott, I can not emphasize this too much. The Mills calorimeter design will give >the WRONG answer. The problem involves temperature gradients. When a heater is >used to calibrate, gradients will be present in the liquid even if it stirred. >On the other hand, when electrolysis is used, bubbles will reduce these >gradients, although not much in Mills' case.. As a result, the same calibration >constant will not exist during calibration and during the experiment. With the >very small amount of excess being claimed, this problem will be significant. To >demonstrate this assertion, I suggest you study the cell first using an inert >(from Mill's perspective) cathode-electrolyte combination and see if applied >electrolytic power gives the same calibration constant as the heater. Once again this demonstrates why you need both chemical and joule controls, and must measure the step function responses both during and before electrolysis. You might note that Mills did the latter in his published reports. Mitchell Swartz >Based on my experience with dewars, the radiation loss you calculate is much too >large. I suggest most of the heat is being lost through the lid and the wires. > >Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 12:39:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11944; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:35:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:35:49 -0800 Message-ID: <38DBD244.7F817BB0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:38:46 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SE4QR.0.Xw2.b6zsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{Where does the electron of a normal hydrogen go when it interacts with > other atoms to form a compound? I would assume that the electron of a > hydrino would behave the same way, if the hydrino exists. --MJ}*** To answer your question, chemistry identifies three types of chemical interaction - covalent, ionic and metallic. Most compounds have a mixture of these three. In the covalent bond, electrons are shared. This means that an electron occupies energy levels in several atoms, sometimes in the one atom and sometimes in the other. Organic compounds are good examples. The ionic bond is created when an electron leaves one atom and stays in the other atom, occupying a stable energy level 100% of the time. Sodium chloride is an example of such a compound. The metallic bond is formed when electrons move out of energy levels associated with each atom and occupy levels which are universal to all the atoms within the structure. As a result, they more freely through out the structure. When any of these bond types form, a loss of energy is normally produced. In a covalent bond, the energy level of the bonding electron has the same value in both atoms. With this conventional model in mind, how would a hydrino electron behave? It obviously can not produce a covalent bond without being able to find a similar energy level associated with the bonded potassium atom. This would mean that a shrunken orbit would have to be available. It can not form an ionic bond without the hydrino electron being lost to the potassium (producing H+ K-) or acquiring another hydrino electron (producing H- K+). Both situations raises some interesting questions. A metallic bond seems to be impossible without all atoms in the structure being shrunken. So, how does the hydrino form compounds? What kind of interaction is possible? I suggest this question needs serious attention from a chemical viewpoint. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 12:48:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15874; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:44:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38DBD445.F3ABD41 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:47:01 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnet Therapy not Voodoo Science Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z4DD4.0.yt3.gEzsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: http://news.excite.com/news/r/000324/13/health-alb <><><><><><><><><> Magnet therapy reduces "voices" heard by schizophrenics Updated 1:28 PM ET March 24, 2000 NEW YORK, Mar 24 (Reuters Health) -- Using magnets to stimulate a particular area of the brain can reduce auditory hallucinations experienced by patients with schizophrenia, report US researchers. About 50% to 70% of patients with schizophrenia report having auditory hallucinations, often in the form of imaginary voices. Drugs offer little help, and these hallucinations can cause distress, disability, and leave patients unable to control their behavior. Previous experiments have shown that a brain area called the temporoparietal cortex (at the side of the brain) is activated during auditory hallucinations in schizophrenic patients, while other experiments have shown that applying a magnetic field to this area reduces the activation. To see if magnetic stimulation could reduce auditory hallucinations in patients with schizophrenia, researchers led by Dr. Ralph E. Hoffman at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, studied 12 schizophrenic patients with daily auditory hallucinations. The investigators applied a low-frequency magnetic field to the left temporoparietal cortex of each patient for 4 minutes the first day, which increased by 4 minutes each day to 16 minutes on day 4. For comparison purposes, each patient also went through a "sham" stimulation, where patients had similar treatment but did not receive a magnetic field. The sham stimulation was separated by 2 to 3 days from the active stimulation. The treatment was well tolerated, according to a report in the March 25th issue of The Lancet, and there was significant improvement in the hallucination severity after 12 and 16 minutes of active stimulation, but not in the sham stimulation. The severity of hallucinations was reduced in all but one patient. However, in the 8 patients classified as responders, the hallucinations returned after a period ranging from 4 days to 2 months after the treatment. Whether patients respond to treatment could depend on whether the patient was also receiving anticonvulsant drugs, which seemed to reduce the effects of the magnetic field, the authors note, or differences in the location of the speech processing areas in the brain. Hoffman's team is continuing their research. They are studying whether the reduction in auditory hallucinations can be sustained over a longer term, and whether the magnet therapy can help other symptoms of schizophrenia. SOURCE: The Lancet 2000;355:1073-1075. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 13:02:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20706; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:58:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:58:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324154851.007dea70 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:48:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? In-Reply-To: <38DBD244.7F817BB0 ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Bme_61.0.N35.7Szsu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:38 PM 3/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >> ***{Where does the electron of a normal hydrogen go when it interacts with >> other atoms to form a compound? I would assume that the electron of a >> hydrino would behave the same way, if the hydrino exists. --MJ}*** > >To answer your question, chemistry identifies three types of chemical interaction >- covalent, ionic and metallic. Most compounds have a mixture of these three. In >the covalent bond, electrons are shared. This means that an electron occupies >energy levels in several atoms, sometimes in the one atom and sometimes in the >other. Organic compounds are good examples. The ionic bond is created when an >electron leaves one atom and stays in the other atom, occupying a stable energy >level 100% of the time. Sodium chloride is an example of such a compound. The >metallic bond is formed when electrons move out of energy levels associated with >each atom and occupy levels which are universal to all the atoms within the >structure. As a result, they more freely through out the structure. When any of >these bond types form, a loss of energy is normally produced. In a covalent bond, >the energy level of the bonding electron has the same value in both atoms. > >With this conventional model in mind, how would a hydrino electron behave? It >obviously can not produce a covalent bond without being able to find a similar >energy level associated with the bonded potassium atom. This would mean that a >shrunken orbit would have to be available. It can not form an ionic bond without >the hydrino electron being lost to the potassium (producing H+ K-) or acquiring >another hydrino electron (producing H- K+). Both situations raises some >interesting questions. A metallic bond seems to be impossible without all atoms >in the structure being shrunken. So, how does the hydrino form compounds? What >kind of interaction is possible? I suggest this question needs serious attention >from a chemical viewpoint. > >Ed Ed: You have left out van de Wals bonds. They have the smallest bond force BUT it extends over quite a distance. Thus, scotch tape sticks to the wall (van de Wals bonds) but mica (ionic bonds) will not (even when dry). The reason is that the bond energy is the force * the distance. The van de Wals bonds you left out account for why cells stick together, why are handshakes are not irreversible, and should be considered in your analysis. Mitchell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 13:57:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08839; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:54:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:54:04 -0800 Message-ID: <38DBE49B.FD5BEEA1 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:56:47 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <3.0.6.32.20000324154851.007dea70@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sbDrn1.0.1A2.xF-su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 01:38 PM 3/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >> > >> ***{Where does the electron of a normal hydrogen go when it interacts with > >> other atoms to form a compound? I would assume that the electron of a > >> hydrino would behave the same way, if the hydrino exists. --MJ}*** > > > >To answer your question, chemistry identifies three types of chemical > interaction > >- covalent, ionic and metallic. Most compounds have a mixture of these > three. In > >the covalent bond, electrons are shared. This means that an electron > occupies > >energy levels in several atoms, sometimes in the one atom and sometimes in > the > >other. Organic compounds are good examples. The ionic bond is created > when an > >electron leaves one atom and stays in the other atom, occupying a stable > energy > >level 100% of the time. Sodium chloride is an example of such a compound. > The > >metallic bond is formed when electrons move out of energy levels > associated with > >each atom and occupy levels which are universal to all the atoms within the > >structure. As a result, they more freely through out the structure. When > any of > >these bond types form, a loss of energy is normally produced. In a > covalent bond, > >the energy level of the bonding electron has the same value in both atoms. > > > >With this conventional model in mind, how would a hydrino electron behave? > It > >obviously can not produce a covalent bond without being able to find a > similar > >energy level associated with the bonded potassium atom. This would mean > that a > >shrunken orbit would have to be available. It can not form an ionic bond > without > >the hydrino electron being lost to the potassium (producing H+ K-) or > acquiring > >another hydrino electron (producing H- K+). Both situations raises some > >interesting questions. A metallic bond seems to be impossible without all > atoms > >in the structure being shrunken. So, how does the hydrino form compounds? > What > >kind of interaction is possible? I suggest this question needs serious > attention > >from a chemical viewpoint. > > > >Ed > > Ed: > > You have left out van de Wals bonds. They have the smallest > bond force BUT it extends over quite a distance. Thus, scotch > tape sticks to the wall (van de Wals bonds) but mica (ionic > bonds) will not (even when dry). > > The reason is that the bond energy is the force * the distance. > The van de Wals bonds you left out account for why cells stick together, > why are handshakes are not irreversible, and should be considere in your > analysis. All very true, Mitchell. However, van de Walls forces do not make chemical compounds, the subject of the discussion. They can be viewed as bond energy that is left over after the compounds form. On the other hand, are you suggesting that the hydrino compounds are based on van de Walls forces? If so, the proposed chemical compounds would be rather unstable, would you not agree? Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 14:28:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20826; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:25:20 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:24:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123@mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA20770 Resent-Message-ID: <"8joT43.0.D55.Fj-su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:28:45 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >By the way: I noticed a newspaper article the other day which clearly >indicated that there are now killer bees in Sydney, and yet the authorities >there apparently didn't notice that the bees were behaving abnormally! Does >that mean Australian politicians are dumber than their American >counterparts? If so, you guys are in deep trouble. My guess is that there are dumb pollies on both sides of the pacific. [snip] >>Suppose however that the K shell were to shrink under "pressure from above", >>or perhaps K-S and L-S concurrently, leaving L-P "out in the cold"? > >***{I think enough has been learned from the study of impurities in crystal >lattices to discount the possibility that the impurity atoms shrink under >normal conditions. I left out what I thought was obvious. Apparently it wasn't. I meant that the inner S sub-shells might shrink under influence of a Mills type catalyst, not under ordinary circumstances. By "pressure from above" I was implying that the "higher" lying electrons might act as energy transfer agents, losslessly transferring the energy of the collapsing inner sub-shell(s) to the catalyst. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 14:29:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21530; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:27:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:27:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324172616.0079e100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:26:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DBC01A.EEFAA68D ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MKeaW3.0.GG5.Pl-su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >With the >very small amount of excess being claimed, this problem will be significant. I apologize for asking a question which is answered in the literature, but what amount of excess is claimed? Thermacore claimed around 50 watts, or an 8 deg C excess temperature rise. That seems pretty big even for a 10 gallon cell. (10 gallon = 38 liters) Ed: do you think the problem you describe with the cell lid could cause an 8 deg C artifact? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 14:56:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29850; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:52:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:52:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324174037.0079ca60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:40:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Bzzzz! In-Reply-To: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"msU7A1.0.8I7.G6_su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>By the way: I noticed a newspaper article the other day which clearly >>indicated that there are now killer bees in Sydney, and yet the authorities >>there apparently didn't notice that the bees were behaving abnormally! Well, they don't usually, as far as I know. They are more aggressive than native North American species when you bother them, but when you leave them alone they don't bother you. No worse than wasps, I gather. They have not reached Georgia or Pennsylvania yet, so I have not met them, but my apiarian friends further south like them. They are disease resistant and highly productive. I suppose they may have killed some people and livestock, but think of how much extra fruit they have provided. The North American killer bees may have mixed in well with the bred population. I have heard they are gentled. Bees in general are the sweetest little creatures around. They have not reached Japan as far as far as my bee-keeper friends there know. The farms I visit there are mostly orchards, with lots of bees. I sent Scott Little photos of them -- he probably wondered what on earth that was. U.S. East Coast feral bee stocks are in big trouble with mites. - Jed - friend of bees and bee-keepers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 15:22:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07163; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:18:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:18:24 -0800 Message-ID: <38DBF5EB.72799E28 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:10:42 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000324172616.0079e100@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ha4CA.0.ql1.0V_su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mills claims excess in the 100 to 200 mW range when using the dewar-type calorimeters. The large calorimeter is an entirely different problem. Not only is this not insulated as well as the small dewars, but much more power is applied. However, I do not have a paper which describes this method. I heard he used a plastic garbage can. Is this true? Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >With the > >very small amount of excess being claimed, this problem will be significant. > > I apologize for asking a question which is answered in the literature, but > what amount of excess is claimed? > > Thermacore claimed around 50 watts, or an 8 deg C excess temperature rise. > That seems pretty big even for a 10 gallon cell. (10 gallon = 38 liters) > Ed: do you think the problem you describe with the cell lid could cause an > 8 deg C artifact? > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 15:49:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16819; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:45:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:45:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000324174440.0139abb4 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:44:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DBC01A.EEFAA68D ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NrtO83.0.c64.Qu_su" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:21 PM 3/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Scott, I can not emphasize this too much. The Mills calorimeter design will give >the WRONG answer.... >To >demonstrate this assertion, I suggest you study the cell first using an inert >(from Mill's perspective) cathode-electrolyte combination and see if applied >electrolytic power gives the same calibration constant as the heater. I will do just that....it's part of the hi-fi replication. Importantly, Mills reports a respectable 102% Pout/Pin with Na salt electrolysis (his idea of inert). Apparently, the problems you are concerned about didn't affect his setup. >Based on my experience with dewars, the radiation loss you calculate is much too >large. It's not an iffy calculation. Prad = sigma*area*emissivity*(Thi^4 - Tlo^4). With the 37 in^2 of exposed area, an emissivity of 0.11, 5.67E-8 for sigma, and 308.2 for Thi and 300.0 for Tlo, you get 0.143 watts radiation thru the Dewar's vacuum. That same 8.2 delta-T across 3/4" of Styrofoam, 2.69" in diameter, with a conductivity of 0.036 watts/m*K, give 0.057 watts thru the lid. The wire losses are negligible...somewhere around .003 watts for each .5 mm dia Pt wire that penetrates the lid. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 16:35:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31355; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:30:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:30:43 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:30:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv 4ax.com> References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DBD244.7F817BB0 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA31311 Resent-Message-ID: <"sJ1Xn1.0.pf7.pY0tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:38:46 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >acquiring >another hydrino electron (producing H- K+). In http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf page 34, Mills gives a table of calculated binding energies for the second electron that turns hydrino into "hydrino-hydride" Hy-H (my abbrev.). The first four levels are: 3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV. To me this implies that any Hy-H above level four will reduce H+ resulting in Hy (hydrino - my abbrev.) and an H atom. These hydrinos thus having been returned to the active state are then free to partake in further shrinkage reactions. (Mills believes that once Hy-H has formed, it is no longer available for shrinkage - ergo inactive [my term]). So we might expect that any Hy-H compounds remaining in water will contain primarily Hy-H shrunken to at least the fourth level. At this point the electron binding energy is 16.7 eV (at least), so it is strongly bound, and hence any resulting compound is likely to be primarily ionic (IMO). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 16:37:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01654; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:34:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:34:56 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:34:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2b2ods4272476uc8bgjurnmspekk3u4qsc 4ax.com> References: <200003241408.JAA23837 mail.lynxus.com> In-Reply-To: <200003241408.JAA23837 mail.lynxus.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA01571 Resent-Message-ID: <"rDyNE3.0.mP.kc0tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:09:56 CST, John N wrote: [snip] > The 1s sub-shells are 'active' in many cases. > > In particular circumstances, there is an effect, which causes a change >which, in turn, causes a stronger bond. > > The change occurs in that electron which becomes more like the host >electrons because of proximity to those electrons, but remains a visitor >because of proximity to its nucleus (which then amounts to ~1s sub-shells). >The effect is always present (unalike systems will be different at the outer >electrons), but the change only occurs if there is sufficient difference >there between host and visitor (atom or ion). Could you perhaps provide a specific example? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 16:43:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29198; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:37:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:37:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324192942.007cbec0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:29:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? In-Reply-To: <38DBE49B.FD5BEEA1 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000324154851.007dea70 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oD8jd3.0.087.-e0tu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:56 PM 3/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >All very true, Mitchell. However, van de Walls forces do not make chemical >compounds, the subject of the discussion. They can be viewed as bond energy that >is left over after the compounds form. On the other hand, are you suggesting >that the hydrino compounds are based on van de Walls forces? If so, the >proposed chemical compounds would be rather unstable, would you not agree? > >Ed van de Wals bonds play major roles in the stereoconstellation of some molecules. Perhaps I am among the last here to accept hydrinos and sparberinos, but conventional chemistry and physics seems, so far, to be sufficient to me. As for the instability, the hydrogen bond is regarded as "weak" but it is 4.5 kcal/mole which is very very large compared to kB*T. Mitchell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 16:51:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA06897; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:49:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:49:36 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2+K fill Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:49:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <9d.36020f2.260c8322 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <9d.36020f2.260c8322 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA06865 Resent-Message-ID: <"_soGT1.0.bh1.Wq0tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:36:50 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: [snip] > At a zero watt reading on the Texmate, the analog output is 10 volts. >This would tell the Watlow to go to full power were it not for the 10 Kohm >pot which is ( hopefully ) set at startup to send zero volts to the Watlow. >I then advance the pot to the desired wattage on the display and it holds. > > At a 60 watts reading on the Texmate, the output is zero volts. >This way when power starts to increase, the control voltage drops towards >zero volts, reducing the power the Watlow sends to the HVPS primary, if >the tube starts drawing less power, the analog voltage increases and the >Watlow controller sends more power to the HVPS primary. Which in turn results in a higher voltage on the tube. The problem is that with a negative dV/dI in the tube, a higher tube voltage results in a LOWER tube current, not a higher tube current. So the current drops (caused by the tube), this drops the power, the texmate tells the trafo to raise the voltage, and the tube drops the current even further. This process continues until the tube is just on the edge (end?) of the negative impedance slope, i.e. at the point where the tube no longer drops the current with an increase in voltage, then it stabilises at that point. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 17:00:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11490; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:58:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:58:47 -0800 Message-ID: <38DC0FEF.30A0287D ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:01:49 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> <3.0.1.32.20000324174440.0139abb4@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aAziF2.0.Sp2.7z0tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 12:21 PM 3/24/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >Scott, I can not emphasize this too much. The Mills calorimeter design > will give > >the WRONG answer.... > > >To > >demonstrate this assertion, I suggest you study the cell first using an inert > >(from Mill's perspective) cathode-electrolyte combination and see if applied > >electrolytic power gives the same calibration constant as the heater. > > I will do just that....it's part of the hi-fi replication. Importantly, > Mills reports a respectable 102% Pout/Pin with Na salt electrolysis (his > idea of inert). Apparently, the problems you are concerned about didn't > affect his setup. > > >Based on my experience with dewars, the radiation loss you calculate is > much too > >large. > > It's not an iffy calculation. Prad = sigma*area*emissivity*(Thi^4 - > Tlo^4). With the 37 in^2 of exposed area, an emissivity of 0.11, 5.67E-8 > for sigma, and 308.2 for Thi and 300.0 for Tlo, you get 0.143 watts > radiation thru the Dewar's vacuum. You have assumed an emissivity of 0.11 which I suspect is high. In any case, my opinions are based on experimental measurement, not calculations. > > > That same 8.2 delta-T across 3/4" of Styrofoam, 2.69" in diameter, with a > conductivity of 0.036 watts/m*K, give 0.057 watts thru the lid. > > The wire losses are negligible...somewhere around .003 watts for each .5 mm > dia Pt wire that penetrates the lid. Don't you also have some copper wires from the thermistor? Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 17:08:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15056; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:07:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:07:05 -0800 Message-ID: <38DC106B.4C52 skylink.net> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:03:39 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-AoX83.0.Ah3.u41tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > For those not following the FREENRG-L thread, I've recently received a > claim that the "electric rocket" plans on my website actually do produce a > significant thrust as well as obvious levitation (6KG of lifting ability > from a 1KG paper/foil capacitor stack powered by a VDG machine.) The > person wishes to remain anonymous until others manage to replicate the > effect. Two solid choices have recently been established to explain this type of phenomena. 1. It is a hoax or fraud. 2. It is poltergeists or some kind of witchcraft. Maybe that peculiar Hutchison character has learned how to do remote PK from his jail cell. If nothing else it is an interesting problem in electrostatics. Plot the equipotential surfaces and the flux lines. Note that the electric flux from each plate goes half up, and half down to the adjacent opposite polarity plates. Note that some of the electric flux from the top-most and bottom-most plates must go elsewhere -- into a kind of dipole field, much of which is through the center of the cylinder. Plot the equipotential surfaces and field lines. Notice that there are radial as well as axial components of field lines inside the cylinder. Calculate the curl of E. Presumably it must be zero, dEr/dz = dEz/dr. Notice that the potential drop through the very center of the device is approximately the voltage on the capacitor. Calculate the axial E field in the very center, E = del(Phi), and note that there is no radial component of flux in the very dead center but there are radial components elsewhere inside the cylinder. Calculate the flux density in the center, D = (e0)E. Try to account for the total electric flux through the center. You may see something interesting. Also note the similarity in this device, and Naudin's corona discharge "coil" (a capacitor distributed in a cylindrical shell), and the similarity in the structure of deAquino's device. We all know what an electric dipole is, and presumably we can actually make one. You want to make one out of macroscopic electrodes -- you end up with something that is primarily a capacitor, with nearly all the field energy between the two electrodes. Or if you want to get much of any dipole like field energy you can crank the voltage up very high, as did Townsend Brown. With the geometry of this device you can force a dipole field with a relatively modest amount of potential, and further force much of the dipole like field to exist in a moderately small amount of area -- inside the cylinder. To generate this kind of dipole field using two small (low surface area) electrodes would require a very high potential. If you used a very high potential you could account easily for all the flux in the E field, due to the gradient of the high potential. In this device, we do not require a high potential to generate a relatively large amount of dipole like electric flux. Further we have focused the flux into a relatively small area. Does the flux in the center of this device match the definition, D = (e0)E? What if it does not? Also note that this device was originally constructed in the 1930s, when foil was foil and had some thickness for attachment of radial flux. Also at that time, wax paper was WAX paper. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 17:14:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02241; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:12:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:12:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38DC131B.4FC760F0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:15:22 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OgqLG.0.wY.3A1tu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:38:46 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >acquiring > >another hydrino electron (producing H- K+). > > In http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf page 34, Mills gives a table > of calculated binding energies for the second electron that turns hydrino > into "hydrino-hydride" Hy-H (my abbrev.). The first four levels are: > 3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV. > To me this implies that any Hy-H above level four will reduce H+ resulting > in Hy (hydrino - my abbrev.) and an H atom. These hydrinos thus having been > returned to the active state are then free to partake in further shrinkage > reactions. (Mills believes that once Hy-H has formed, it is no longer > available for shrinkage - ergo inactive [my term]). So we might expect that > any Hy-H compounds remaining in water will contain primarily Hy-H shrunken > to at least the fourth level. At this point the electron binding energy is > 16.7 eV (at least), so it is strongly bound, and hence any resulting > compound is likely to be primarily ionic (IMO). OK, lets see if I understand this. Mills claims an electron associated with an individual H atom will lose energy in stages until it has lost 16.7 eV. At that point it bonds with another H which is "normal". This causes me a problem. The "normal" H2 is formed by the two electrons being shared in a covalent bond. How is this possible between a shrunken H (Hy) and a normal H? Going on, I assume this molecule is neutral. On the other hand, you propose it to be ionized. Does this mean that the Hy-H molecule contains only one hydrino electron which is shared by similar levels in both atoms? If this is the case, compounds with potassium would have a stoichiometry of KH2. However, to form an ionic bond, the K would have to gain an electron from somewhere and appear as K- in this structure. Unfortunately, K- is not stable and would normally not be available to form a bond. How do you expect this works? Ed > > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 17:24:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21371; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:21:02 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:20:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FE B4AB2 ix.netcom.com> <38DB9378.D21A9C66@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DB9378.D21A9C66 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA21186 Resent-Message-ID: <"MI1LB1.0.mD5.zH1tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:10:35 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >I find it hard to understand how energy can be transferred between ions if they are not >on a surface. After all, these ions are not floating around in the solution as isolated >ions. They are in a cage of H2O which isolates them from each other. These cages however are dynamic, resulting in the occasional exposure of the ions. If this were not so, then AgCl wouldn't precipitate when solutions of AgNO3 and NaCl are mixed, because the ions wouldn't be able to reach each other. >In any case, like >charges repel so that two K+ will not be very close to each other in any case. On average, this is probably true, however there will be random occasions when it is not. There is also the possibility that the very cages you mention above (or partial cages) perform the function of a surface, that you find necessary (sort of analogous to the functioning of enzymes perhaps, where shape is so important?). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 18:24:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05008; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:21:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:21:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000324201941.0123c798 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:19:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DC0FEF.30A0287D ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> <3.0.1.32.20000324174440.0139abb4 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"av3TC1.0.AE1.kA2tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:01 PM 3/24/2000 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >You have assumed an emissivity of 0.11 which I suspect is high. Yes. However, even with the book value of 0.07, the Dewar loss is still 0.087 watts...more than the lid loss. >In any case, my >opinions are based on experimental measurement, not calculations. Indeed. I'll soon be having some measurements of my own. It wouldn't be the first time I had to discard some calculations.... >Don't you also have some copper wires from the thermistor? Yes, they are pretty thin, though....30 ga typically, which yields about the same loss per wire as the .5mm Pt. Hmmmmm! I'm going to have about 10 wires leading out of this cell what with all the temp probes in it. That will amount to a significant fraction of the total conductivity. Thanks for mentioning the wires. I'll report in full as the experiment progresses. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 18:41:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA12114; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:40:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:40:34 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:40:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb 4ax.com> References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DC131B.4FC760F0 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA12087 Resent-Message-ID: <"wpp5M3.0.7z2.YS2tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:15:22 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >> In http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf page 34, Mills gives a table >> of calculated binding energies for the second electron that turns hydrino >> into "hydrino-hydride" Hy-H (my abbrev.). The first four levels are: >> 3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV. >> To me this implies that any Hy-H above level four will reduce H+ resulting >> in Hy (hydrino - my abbrev.) and an H atom. These hydrinos thus having been >> returned to the active state are then free to partake in further shrinkage >> reactions. (Mills believes that once Hy-H has formed, it is no longer >> available for shrinkage - ergo inactive [my term]). So we might expect that >> any Hy-H compounds remaining in water will contain primarily Hy-H shrunken >> to at least the fourth level. At this point the electron binding energy is >> 16.7 eV (at least), so it is strongly bound, and hence any resulting >> compound is likely to be primarily ionic (IMO). > >OK, lets see if I understand this. Mills claims an electron associated with >an individual H atom will lose energy in stages until it has lost 16.7 eV. No, Mills claims that a hydrogen atom can lose energy in stages, becoming an ever smaller hydrino (This can in theory go to a thousand levels of shrinkage). He also claims that once a hydrino has formed it can bond with a free electron becoming a shrunken form of H- which he calls hydrino-hydride (why I don't know, I have already pointed out that this sounds like a molecule). (Perhaps Hydrinoide would have been better?). > At >that point it bonds with another H which is "normal". If you are referring to what I wrote above, then that isn't quite what I meant. What I meant was that since the second electron is only bound to a one-fold shrunken hydrino by 3.05 eV, it should be easily able to surrender that electron to an H+ ion (which upon binding the electron releases 13.6 eV), resulting in a plain hydrino of level 2 (i.e. half the size of hydrogen), and an H atom, each of which would then go their separate ways. Consider that in this particular case, the electron is less strongly bound to the Hydrino (3.05 eV), than the first electron is bound to Cs (3.89 eV), so for redox reactions, one might expect Hy- (hydrino with 3.05 eV bound electron, called hydrino hydride, which I previously abbreviated as Hy-H; poor choice perhaps) to be an even stronger reductor (reducer?) than cesium in water. I.e. it aint likely to hold on to it's electron. >This causes me a >problem. The "normal" H2 is formed by the two electrons being shared in a >covalent bond. How is this possible between a shrunken H (Hy) and a normal H? It isn't, and also doesn't happen AFAIK. (My previously used abbreviation Hy-H was not meant to represent a molecule, but rather a hydrino with two electrons i.e. Hy- which Mills calls "hydrino-hydride" hence my poor abbreviation). >Going on, I assume this molecule is neutral. On the other hand, you propose >it to be ionized. Does this mean that the Hy-H molecule contains only one >hydrino electron which is shared by similar levels in both atoms? If this is >the case, compounds with potassium would have a stoichiometry of KH2. >However, to form an ionic bond, the K would have to gain an electron from >somewhere and appear as K- in this structure. Unfortunately, K- is not stable >and would normally not be available to form a bond. How do you expect this >works? [snip] The potassium hydrino compounds are I think ionic, with the potassium as K+, and the hydrinos as Hy-, whereby in all likelihood the Hy is shrunken to at least the fourth level when created in a water solution. Note: Mills tends to indicate the level of shrinkage with a number in some sort of brackets after the H, so in this case it might be something like KH(n=1/4). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 19:43:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26494; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:35:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:35:56 -0800 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:41:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BBGB... By ALL means! And thanks youRe: A joke? In-Reply-To: <000ldss4laohgkrt9hd3bmn0uch2nsosco 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9cRed1.0.uT6.RG3tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:07:38 -0500 (EST), John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > > Is this post a humor? > > No, not really. > [snip] > >Robin writes: > >>>-Steve > >>However other atoms do have S sub-shells which according to QM are > >>spherical. Could I be forgiven for thinking that these might be susceptible > >>to shrinkage? > > > > Impossible to expand or shrink spheres? > > > > > > Spherical... egg shaped shell shaped... only in ther math ... > > John, have you read the previous couple of posts in this thread? What I > wrote was a logical successor. It isn't clear to me what your objection is, > so how about a BBGB explanation? > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 19:44:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26858; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:37:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:37:54 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.20000325033821.008fbd3c pop.voyager.net> X-Sender: estrojny pop.voyager.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:38:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Bzzzz! Resent-Message-ID: <"y9eK02.0.aZ6.II3tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:40 PM 3/24/00 -0500, Jed wrote: > >U.S. East Coast feral bee stocks are in big trouble with mites. > >- Jed - friend of bees and bee-keepers > I recently read that formic acid vapors will kill the mites or force them to leave and apparently not harm the bees. This is a very simple solution to the problem if true. I kept bees many years as a hobby until a bear discovered them. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 19:46:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30346; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:43:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:43:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38DC33CD.83042BE1 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 15:34:38 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! References: <38DC106B.4C52@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qi0ty3.0.3Q7.VN3tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why? I want to disagree (though fear you are at least 1/2 right about PK) Robert Stirniman wrote: > > Two solid choices have recently been established to explain > this type of phenomena. > 1. It is a hoax or fraud. > 2. It is poltergeists or some kind of witchcraft. > > Maybe that peculiar Hutchison character has learned how to > do remote PK from his jail cell. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 19:51:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA32453; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:49:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:49:54 -0800 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:55:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bzzzz! In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000325033821.008fbd3c pop.voyager.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WtPzP.0.ww7.XT3tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Formic Acid vapors will kill a LOT of stuff... depending on the usual ... amount, duration and so on.... J On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Edwin Strojny wrote: > At 05:40 PM 3/24/00 -0500, Jed wrote: > > > >U.S. East Coast feral bee stocks are in big trouble with mites. > > > >- Jed - friend of bees and bee-keepers > > > I recently read that formic acid vapors will kill the mites or force them to > leave and apparently not harm the bees. This is a very simple solution to > the problem if true. I kept bees many years as a hobby until a bear > discovered them. > > Ed Strojny > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 24 20:39:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12919; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:38:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:38:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38DC43B4.399F35E3 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:42:28 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Mar 24, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9hv-d1.0.n93.3B4tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Mar 24, 2000 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:54:30 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 24 Mar 00 Washington, DC 1. MISSILE DEFENSE: PENTAGON POSTPONES "DECISIVE" TEST. In a televised speech on March 23, 1983, President Reagan called on "the scientific community, those who gave us nuclear weapons, to turn their great talents now to the cause of mankind and world peace," by finding a way to, "intercept and destroy strategic ballistic missiles before they reach our soil." There was no celebration yesterday to mark the "Star Wars" anniversary. On the contrary, the Pentagon announced Tuesday that the third test of a hit-to-kill interceptor would be delayed by at least two months, pushing back President Clinton's deployment decision (WN 26 Nov 99) to October. The 17-year history of missile defense is littered with the remains of failed concepts--chemical lasers, X- ray lasers, brilliant pebbles. Which reminds me that yesterday was also the anniversary of the 1989 announcement of cold fusion. Coincidence? Or did Reagan and Pons consult the same astrologer? 2. MARS POLAR LANDER: WHO KNEW WHAT--AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT? In Senate testimony Wednesday, NASA Administrator Dan Goldin denied a UPI story that NASA officials knew before the spacecraft ever reached Mars that there was a serious flaw in the Lander's braking rocket, but withheld the information from the public. According to the UPI story, when the catalyst used to ignite the hydrazine fuel failed to function properly in tests conducted at the predicted temperature of the spacecraft, the temperature was raised until it worked. Goldin insists engineers conducted honest tests and believed the problem was solved. A NASA review board is expected to report on the incident next week. Back at JPL, engineers erred in the opposite direction by subjecting the High Energy Solar Spectroscopic Imager to a shake test 10 times more severe than intended, resulting in major damage. 3. MIR: MARRIAGE OF SPACE AND SHOW BIZ WAS NEVER CONSUMMATED. Much to the dismay of NASA, two cosmonauts are scheduled to return to the leaky spacecraft on April 4. But actor Vladimir Steklov (WN 4 Feb 00), the Rick Rockwell of space, will not be one of them. Like previous private bailout plans, the fare was too high and the prospects too slim (WN 14 Jan 00). A Russian space agency spokesman admits that financial problems remain. 4. DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS: ADVERSE REACTIONS ARE UNDER-REPORTED. The 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, passed after a huge lobbying campaign by the $14B supplement industry, exempts natural substances from FDA oversight. Suppliers do not have to establish safety or efficacy, nor is any agency responsible for insuring that the supplement contains what is listed on the label. A four-part investigative report in the Washington Post this week exposed a huge disparity between the actual number of adverse events from herbal products and the number reported to the FDA. More on this issue in coming weeks. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 00:40:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25514; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 00:40:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 00:40:16 -0800 Message-ID: <00b401bf969a$4c9c39a0$678cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:38:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5R4f82.0.aE6.mj7tu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robert and all, >William Beaty wrote: >> For those not following the FREENRG-L thread, I've recently received a >> claim that the "electric rocket" plans on my website actually do produce a >> significant thrust as well as obvious levitation (6KG of lifting ability >> from a 1KG paper/foil capacitor stack powered by a VDG machine.) The >> person wishes to remain anonymous until others manage to replicate the >> effect. > >Two solid choices have recently been established to explain >this type of phenomena. > 1. It is a hoax or fraud. > 2. It is poltergeists or some kind of witchcraft. > >Maybe that peculiar Hutchison character has learned how to >do remote PK from his jail cell. I take it this is a form of deadpan humor :-) In this device, we do not >require a high potential to generate a relatively large amount >of dipole like electric flux. Further we have focused the flux >into a relatively small area. This seems to me to be the key point, since most of TT Brown's difficulties sprung from his inability to create a dipole field of enough intensity to lift the craft in air without creating arcing.. .. Leaving aside the means by which it happens. Regards, Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 05:21:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA26089; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 05:20:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 05:20:48 -0800 Message-ID: <01fd01bf965e$37619ee0$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "IronEagle" Subject: Re: Separating Firewater From Ice Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 05:29:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Cwprf.0.ZN6.mqBtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Gene Mallove should like this. :-) According to my Light Lepton Hypothesis there should be a "Neutral/Inert"species of water molecule (Firewater) with a Negatrino and Positrino attached {(-)H2O(+) }mixed in with ordinary water in various concentrations. In order to effect separation, the water must be frozen in a vessel and a good vacuum pulled on the vessel to remove the air, followed by low heat/pressure to effect offgassing of the weakly bound "Firewater" which is captured in a suitable sealed container, for analysis and CF/OU-Fission usage. BTW, this "Water-Gas" coming off of electrolysis cell experiments will cause an OU error. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 06:22:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04542; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:21:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:21:24 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38DCD9A2.5D13ACEB mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 15:22:10 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80@earthtech.org> <38DBC01A.EEFAA68D@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"GESsx3.0.S61.VjCtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: ... My calculations indicate that only about 30% of the heat leaves thru the 3/4" styrofoam lid in this experiment. I used the Stefan-Boltzman radiation law to predict the heat lost thru the exposed portion of the Dewar walls and compared it to the heat conducted thru the Styrofoam lid. To get the results to match Mills' reported 41C/watt overall cell constant (I bought the exact same Dewar he used), I had to fudge the emissivity of the Dewar's silvered surfaces to 0.115, which, although a bit higher than the CRC handbook's 0.07 value, seems like a reasonable effective value (a Dewar's vacuum isn't perfect and the inner glass vessel is connected to the outer glass vessel at the top. The gas-filled head space that separates the lid from the electrolyte should further reduce the total fraction of the heat that escapes thru the lid. Ed Storms wrote: Scott, I can not emphasize this too much. The Mills calorimeter design will give the WRONG answer. The problem involves temperature gradients. When a heater is used to calibrate, gradients will be present in the liquid even if it stirred. On the other hand, when electrolysis is used, bubbles will reduce these gradients, although not much in Mills' case.. As a result, the same calibration constant will not exist during calibration and during the experiment. With the very small amount of excess being claimed, this problem will be significant. To demonstrate this assertion, I suggest you study the cell first using an inert (from Mill's perspective) cathode-electrolyte combination and see if applied electrolytic power gives the same calibration constant as the heater. Based on my experience with dewars, the radiation loss you calculate is much too large. I suggest most of the heat is being lost through the lid and the wires. Mitchell Swartz wrote: Once again this demonstrates why you need both chemical and joule controls, and must measure the step function responses both during and before electrolysis. You might note that Mills did the latter in his published reports. Edmund Storms wrote: ... I suggest you study the cell first using an inert (from Mill's perspective) cathode-electrolyte combination and see if applied electrolytic power gives the same calibration constant as the heater. Scott wrote: I will do just that....it's part of the hi-fi replication. Importantly, Mills reports a respectable 102% Pout/Pin with Na salt electrolysis (his idea of inert). Apparently, the problems you are concerned about didn't affect his setup ... The wire losses are negligible...somewhere around .003 watts for each .5 mm dia Pt wire that penetrates the lid. Ed wrote: Don't you also have some copper wires from the thermistor? Scott wrote: Yes, they are pretty thin, though....30 ga typically, which yields about the same loss per wire as the .5mm Pt. Hmmmmm! I'm going to have about 10 wires leading out of this cell what with all the temp probes in it. That will amount to a significant fraction of the total conductivity. Thanks for mentioning the wires. I'll report in full as the experiment progresses. Hi Scott, The above was certainly a productive exchange. Are there any similar concerns relative to your off-gas collection? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 06:28:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA06308; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:27:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:27:36 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:27:10 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Left-Handed' Material Said to Reverse Energy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"om9Cf3.0.UY1.OpCtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-03/22/127l-032200-idx.html Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 07:39:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20352; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:38:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:38:25 -0800 Message-ID: <38DCDE15.9CCE3E86 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:41:13 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FE B4AB2 ix.netcom.com> <38DB9378.D21A9C66@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4teiq2.0.qz4.mrDtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:10:35 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >I find it hard to understand how energy can be transferred between ions if they are not > >on a surface. After all, these ions are not floating around in the solution as isolated > >ions. They are in a cage of H2O which isolates them from each other. > > These cages however are dynamic, resulting in the occasional exposure of the > ions. If this were not so, then AgCl wouldn't precipitate when solutions of > AgNO3 and NaCl are mixed, because the ions wouldn't be able to reach each > other. True, but in the Mills case, three atoms, two of which having the same charge, must get together at the same instant in time and exchange energy. In the case of Ag+ and Cl-, only two ions of opposite charge get together to form a very stable molecule. I suggest the two situations are not the same. > > > >In any case, like > >charges repel so that two K+ will not be very close to each other in any case. > > On average, this is probably true, however there will be random occasions > when it is not. There is also the possibility that the very cages you > mention above (or partial cages) perform the function of a surface, that you > find necessary (sort of analogous to the functioning of enzymes perhaps, > where shape is so important?). This argument seems like a leap of faith based on a desperate need to make the model work. Actually, if this process can work, there is no need for electrolysis. You can argue that K+, which is naturally present, and H which can form at random times from the H+ present, all can come together as you suggest. If your model is correct, we should see hydrogen shrinking all around us. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 07:49:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22798; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:47:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:47:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:47:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: more on the lefthand, neg resistance material (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FD-V22.0.8a5.j-Dtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 21:56:40 -0600 From: "Jerry W. Decker" To: "Alexander V. Frolov" Subject: more on the lefthand, neg resistance material Hi Folks! Here is another take on the left hand, negative resistance discovery, courtesy of Bert Pool; http://www.escribe.com/science/keelynet/m8218.html the first post; http://www.escribe.com/science/keelynet/m8189.html -- KeelyNet - From an Art to a Science Jerry W. Decker - http://www.keelynet.com/ discussion archives http://www.escribe.com/science/keelynet/ KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, TX 75187 - 214.324.8741 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 08:08:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26447; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:07:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:07:00 -0800 Message-ID: <021901bf966d$f266faa0$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "IronEagle" Subject: Re: Separating Firewater From Ice Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:21:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"r3Keh1.0.9T6.aGEtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex An alternative to freezing the water for subsequent "Firewater" Distillation is to use an Antifreeze mix of 75% Ethanol/Water by volume (F.P. ~ - 50 F) or Propylene Glycol/Water (F.P. ~ -35 F) before pulling the vacuum on it. A mixture of Dry Ice and Acetone should work well as a freezing mixture for this, if you don't have handy access to a freezer. If Henry's or Raoult's Laws apply to the Firewater (Water-Gas) one should be able to concentrate the (-)H2O(+), (-)D2O(+) or (-)HDO(+) species with distillation techniques. OTOH, a concentrated mix, if sparked, or otherwise set off could release 0.4 ev or 54.4 ev per Firewater molecule and cause an explosion, or trigger explosive CF/OU-Fission reactions. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 08:54:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04377; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:52:17 -0800 Message-ID: <38DCEF67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:55:11 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ofdp81.0.J41.0xEtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:15:22 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >> In http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf page 34, Mills gives a table > >> of calculated binding energies for the second electron that turns hydrino > >> into "hydrino-hydride" Hy-H (my abbrev.). The first four levels are: > >> 3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV. > >> To me this implies that any Hy-H above level four will reduce H+ resulting > >> in Hy (hydrino - my abbrev.) and an H atom. These hydrinos thus having been > >> returned to the active state are then free to partake in further shrinkage > >> reactions. (Mills believes that once Hy-H has formed, it is no longer > >> available for shrinkage - ergo inactive [my term]). So we might expect that > >> any Hy-H compounds remaining in water will contain primarily Hy-H shrunken > >> to at least the fourth level. At this point the electron binding energy is > >> 16.7 eV (at least), so it is strongly bound, and hence any resulting > >> compound is likely to be primarily ionic (IMO). > > > >OK, lets see if I understand this. Mills claims an electron associated with > >an individual H atom will lose energy in stages until it has lost 16.7 eV. > > No, Mills claims that a hydrogen atom can lose energy in stages, becoming an > ever smaller hydrino (This can in theory go to a thousand levels of > shrinkage). He also claims that once a hydrino has formed it can bond with a > free electron becoming a shrunken form of H- which he calls hydrino-hydride > (why I don't know, I have already pointed out that this sounds like a > molecule). (Perhaps Hydrinoide would have been better?). So, the electron associated with a hydrogen atom loses energy by the proposed unique nonradiative process and at some point reaches a stable condition. For the sake of this discussion , let's assume it has reached the first level. Whereupon, another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. As you note above, we have the first four (3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV) shrunken levels and the "normal" quantum level. However, to reach the shrunken levels, an electron must lose energy by the unique nonradiative process. The first electron did this and now occupies the first level. The second electron looks at this assembly and must find at home. It can not enter the "shrunken" levels unless it loses energy. How is this loss accomplished without K+ or a similar sink being present? In the absence of such a sink, the electron goes into the "normal" energy level. At this point, we have two electrons with much different energies, with the "normal" electron energy being modified by the presence of the other electron. Consequently, any compound formed by this ion will be different from a normal compound. If this is the basis for the new chemistry, I'm beginning to understand. However, let's go on. > > At > >that point it bonds with another H which is "normal". > > If you are referring to what I wrote above, then that isn't quite what I > meant. What I meant was that since the second electron is only bound to a > one-fold shrunken hydrino by 3.05 eV, it should be easily able to surrender > that electron to an H+ ion (which upon binding the electron releases 13.6 > eV), resulting in a plain hydrino of level 2 (i.e. half the size of > hydrogen), and an H atom, each of which would then go their separate ways. Here you seem to be saying that the "shrunken" electron in one hydrino atom can transfer to a bare proton (H+) and enter a lower "shrunken" level, thereby giving off more energy. I assume, the electron in the "normal" level remains behind as an innocent observer unless it has a way of shedding energy by the unique nonradiative process. For this model to be internally consistent, an electron can not enter or leave the "shrunken" energy levels unless it can shed or acquire energy by the unique nonradiative process. Therefore, I do not see how an electron coming from the "normal" world can bond with a hydrino and thereafter move into a "shrunken" level, as you suggest. In brief, once an electron is "shrunken" it can not enter into any interaction with another atom, except to exchange with another H atom. This is consistent with Mill's claim that a hydrino will not react with oxygen to make water. > > Consider that in this particular case, the electron is less strongly bound > to the Hydrino (3.05 eV), than the first electron is bound to Cs (3.89 eV), > so for redox reactions, one might expect Hy- (hydrino with 3.05 eV bound > electron, called hydrino hydride, which I previously abbreviated as Hy-H; > poor choice perhaps) to be an even stronger reductor (reducer?) than cesium > in water. I.e. it aint likely to hold on to it's electron. > > >This causes me a > >problem. The "normal" H2 is formed by the two electrons being shared in a > >covalent bond. How is this possible between a shrunken H (Hy) and a normal H? > > It isn't, and also doesn't happen AFAIK. > (My previously used abbreviation Hy-H was not meant to represent a molecule, > but rather a hydrino with two electrons i.e. Hy- which Mills calls > "hydrino-hydride" hence my poor abbreviation). > > >Going on, I assume this molecule is neutral. On the other hand, you propose > >it to be ionized. Does this mean that the Hy-H molecule contains only one > >hydrino electron which is shared by similar levels in both atoms? If this is > >the case, compounds with potassium would have a stoichiometry of KH2. > >However, to form an ionic bond, the K would have to gain an electron from > >somewhere and appear as K- in this structure. Unfortunately, K- is not stable > >and would normally not be available to form a bond. How do you expect this > >works? > [snip] > The potassium hydrino compounds are I think ionic, with the potassium as K+, > and the hydrinos as Hy-, whereby in all likelihood the Hy is shrunken to at > least the fourth level when created in a water solution. Would this mean that both electrons in the H- are in the same "shrunken" level, in different "shrunken" levels, or one "shrunken" and one "normal"? I would think that since many K+ ions are easily available in the proposed compound, that this material would continue to give off energy as all of the electrons associated with H gradually decayed to the lowest shrunken levels, whereupon the chemical properties of the material would continuously change. Why does this not happen? Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 11:04:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02875; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:02:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:02:32 -0800 Message-ID: <38DCE450.30A813E5 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:07:44 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: Hydrino] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BxGDK2.0.li.7rGtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: March 25, 2.000 Vortex, Peter Gluck sent this along which I foward here in quote format. Thanks, Peter! -ak- >eter wrote: > a start! > Peter ><< http://chemweb.com/alchem/2000/catalyst/ct_000324_hydrino.html>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > [ChemDex] [Click here for more details] > [Image][Catalyst][The Alchemist][Image] > > Hydrino > > What if there were a way to split water that released far more heat energy > than the basic thermodynamics would suggest? What if the amount of that heat > energy was so much greater, say a hundred times or so higher? We might almost > say we could tap into a clean, pollutant minimal energy source to solve the > world's needs, writes David Bradley. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The Usenet is as good a place to start as any if you are trying to find out > what everyone from Nobel laureates to crank pseudoscientists would have to > say about such an energy source. One name that might come up if you did a > search these last couple of weeks is that of Randell Mills a scientist based > in East Windsor, New Jersey and head of Blacklight Power Inc. > > In February, Mills was issued US patent #6024935 for his invention of > "Methods and apparatus for releasing energy from hydrogen atoms by > stimulating their electrons to relax to quantised lower energy levels and > smaller radii (smaller semimajor and semiminor axes) than the ‘ground state’ > by providing energy sinks or means to remove energy resonant with the > hydrogen energy released to stimulate these transitions." > > Hydrinos - smaller than normal hydrogen atoms > The patent effectively lays claim to it being possible to create smaller than > normal hydrogen atoms dubbed ‘hydrinos’, an idea which was first brought to > light some nine years ago in April 1991 by Mills and in so doing release > large amounts of energy at minimal energy cost. Think about it. Engines, > electrical and heat generators, energy storage media…the list of possible > applications could go on and on. > > BlackLight > At the time of Mills first revelations, the physics "At the time of > community was not at all impressed. Remember, cold Mills first > fusion was still a sour taste in the mouths of most revelations, the > researchers and another seemingly cranky idea was physics community > not what science needed. But, on the back of an was not at all > almost alchemical promise of unlimited energy for impressed." > almost zero cost BlackLight has managed to raise > more than US$25 million from some 150 keen > investors, including electrical power companies and the like. Not such a huge > amount in light of recent technology start-ups admittedly…but not bad for > what boils down to a potential energy company. Mills is purportedly in the > throes of preparing an initial public offering to float the company on the > stock exchange and as such is generating a constant stream of chat in Usenet > groups from sci.physics.fusion and sci.energy.hydrogen to > bit.listserv.skeptic and alt.fan.unabomber. > > Several prominent physicists, including a couple of Nobel laureates, have > offered the suggestion of a strong olfactory response, more usually > associated with the volatile components of bovine excrement, to explain > Mills' claims. Mills, however, has not taken kindly to a potential disruption > to his IPO plans and his lawyers have issued demands to the detractors from > his energy theories to encourage them to "stop engaging in further defamatory > and disparaging activities concerning BlackLight and Dr. Mills". > > What is all the fuss about? > So what is all the fuss about? Surely, a new method of retrieving energy from > hydrogen that does not risk explosion, precludes the need for bulky and > inefficient fuel cells, and avoids expensive catalysts and the like should be > welcomed with open arms by the whole scientific community and the whole of > industry, with the exception, perhaps, of the fossil fuel providers. > > Catalytic hydrogen collpase - the BlackLight Process > The thing is, Mills has added a rather peculiar spin to hydrogen atoms that > to many physicists simply won't wash. The technology, Mills says at his > company web site, is based on a chemical process that causes catalytic > hydrogen collapse. He has named this the ‘BlackLight Process’. Heat is > released as the electrons of these hydrogen atoms (split by a hot tungsten > filament) are induced by a vaporised inorganic catalyst — a potassium > compound — to drop to lower energy levels, which apparently correspond to > fractional quantum numbers. The formation of these hydrogen atoms with their > smaller than normal radii — as yet unproven species known as hydrinos — > releases huge amounts of energy somewhere between that obtainable from > chemical and nuclear reactions. > > Mills backs up his claims not only with (strangely) astrophysical and solar > information, but with research into each aspect of his invention carried out > at independent laboratories, including three US universities. "Results to > date indicate the process can support economically competitive products in a > wide range of applications including motive power and stationary electric > power generation," Mills claims. To the layman it all looks very flash and > acceptable. > > But, what about those eminent physicists and chemists with the scent of > ruminant bowel discharge in their nostrils? Being eminent, of course, does > not preclude you from being wrong, but is there not just the slightest > possibility that there are flaws in the hydrino argument? Mills obviously > does not think so and supporters have cited his respectable Harvard medical > training and studies in electric engineering and biotechnology at MIT to > uphold his credibility. > > A fundamental flaw > In terms of known physics though, there is an absolutely fundamental flaw in > Mills' work, claim his detractors. Put simply there are no lower energy > states of the hydrogen atom to access no matter what the process. The > hydrogen atom is as low as it can go, the electrons are as close to the > nucleus as they can possibly get. If that's not true, then most of modern > physics including quantum chemistry can exit via the transparent > fenestrations. > > However, Mills has backers who are pretty serious players in the energy > market as well as strong support from financial companies. He believes > hydrinos have countless potential applications aside from being energy > providers: magnetic materials for electronics, aerospace engineering and high > energy density batteries and rocket fuels and explosives. According to Mills, > more than 25 laboratories have verified that BlackLight are producing power > (100 times the energy of burning hydrogen), a plasma (with no additional > power into the cell), and novel materials. > > Maybe quantum mechanics and string theory should be > consigned to the scientific history books as a minor "Maybe quantum > detour during the twentieth century. It would be mechanics and string > nice to think so since neither have yielded a theory should be > solution to our energy needs. But, the odds seem to consigned to the > be stacked against the high hopes some are placing scientific history > on hydrinos…we had cold fusion in the last century books as a minor > and even to this day there are claims for good detour during the > old-fashioned perpetual motion machines still being twentieth century." > planned and constructed. > > As a kind of footnote to this story another patent issued on the same day as > Mill's described a very different energy solution. US Patent #6,025,810 was > given for a ‘hyper-light-speed antenna’. This device sounds marvellous "A > method to transmit and receive electromagnetic waves which comprises > generating opposing magnetic fields having a plane of maximum force running > perpendicular to a longitudinal axis of the magnetic field; generating a heat > source along an axis parallel to the longitudinal axis of the magnetic field; > generating an accelerator parallel to and in close proximity to the heat > source, thereby creating an input and output port; and generating a > communications signal into the input and output port, thereby sending the > signal at a speed faster than light…" Simply amazing! If I suggest that > perhaps Strom might find it a little difficult to demonstrate the invention > practically, do you think he'll sic his lawyers on me? > > Check out the BlackLight website and animated graphic showing the hydrogen > atoms forming hydrinos and giving off loads of energy. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > David Bradley is a freelance science writer and editorial > [Image] consultant [Image] > based in Cambridge, England. > > The Alchemist copyright © 1997-2000 ChemWeb Inc. > All rights reserved From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 16:43:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20419; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:42:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:42:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000325184031.0123b3b0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 18:40:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DCD9A2.5D13ACEB mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> <38DBC01A.EEFAA68D ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"iEw6G3.0.z-4.hpLtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:22 PM 3/25/2000 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >The above was certainly a productive exchange. Are there >any similar concerns relative to your off-gas collection? I don't know of any...yet. Numerous folks have suggested that the cell should not be closed (with an internal recombiner) so I'm not doing that. The only change I'm making (that the cell could notice) is to let the gas out through a tube rather than through small gaps all around the lid. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 19:12:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17944; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 19:11:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 19:11:20 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:23:32 -0500 Message-ID: <20000326032332953.AAA178 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"6Zuh62.0.HO4.O_Ntu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott writes: >I don't know of any...yet. Numerous folks have suggested that the cell >should not be closed (with an internal recombiner) so I'm not doing that. >The only change I'm making (that the cell could notice) is to let the gas >out through a tube rather than through small gaps all around the lid. Still not quite sure what you intend to do here, Scott. I take it you are going to run an open cell? And where will you have the recombiner? In the cell or outside on a tube? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 20:29:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA03338; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:28:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:28:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000325222633.01241c90 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:26:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <20000326032332953.AAA178 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"PUFYg1.0.4q.l7Ptu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:23 PM 3/25/2000 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >Still not quite sure what you intend to do here, Scott. I take it you are >going to run an open cell? Right. I will let the H2 and O2 escape from the cell just as Mills did. That's what "open cell" means. >And where will you have the recombiner? In the >cell or outside on a tube? I may not employ a recombiner. The main reason I'm conveying the gases out of the cell thru a tube is to permit accurate measurement of the gas flow rate. By comparing the measured flow rate with the cell current, I can determine how much, if any, recombination is occurring inside the cell. It takes 2 electrons to dissociate one H2O molecule. At room temperature and pressure, that works out to a total gas flow rate of about 0.19 cc/sec for every ampere of cell current. If, for example, I see only 0.1 cc/sec per ampere it will probably mean that 50% of the H2 and O2 are recombining inside the cell. A reduced gas flow rate could also mean that some of the hydrogen was turning into hydrinos and therefore not leaving the cell. In that case, the exiting stream of gas would be relatively oxygen rich. If I see a reduced gas flow, I will employ an external recombiner (separated from the cell by a water trap to prevent igniting the gas in the cell's head space!) to explore the composition of the exit gas. If the external recombiner can "consume" all of the exiting gas, it will show that only simple recombination is going on inside the cell. However, if the external recombiner fails to recombine everything, I will be able to collect the unreactable portion of the gas. Then I can use our RGA (residual gas analyzer), which is a low-res mass spectrometer, to analyze it. I've already been through a procedure similar to this in our Mizuno efforts. See: http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 21:56:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21512; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:55:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:55:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 15:54:54 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF 67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DCEF67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA21489 Resent-Message-ID: <"K2Ikw.0.zF5.HPQtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:55:11 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >For the >sake of this discussion , let's assume it has reached the first level. Whereupon, >another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of >potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. Not quite. There is only one energy level for the second electron, for each sized hydrino (AFAIK or understand). As follows: Hy (n=1/2) --> Hy- = 3.05 eV (energy released by binding second electron). Hy (n=1/3) --> Hy- = 6.61 eV (ditto) Hy (n=1/4) --> Hy- = 11.23 eV etc. Hy (n=1/5) --> Hy- = 16.7 eV etc. > As you note >above, we have the first four (3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV) shrunken >levels and the "normal" quantum level. >However, to reach the shrunken levels, an >electron must lose energy by the unique nonradiative process. The first electron >did this and now occupies the first level. The second electron looks at this >assembly and must find at home. It can not enter the "shrunken" levels unless it >loses energy. How is this loss accomplished without K+ or a similar sink being >present? I get the impression that no energy hole mechanism is required for the second electron. This would seem to imply that a hydrino once formed is just as "accessible" to a second electron as a normal ground state hydrogen atom would be (i.e. as in H + e- -> H-). >In the absence of such a sink, the electron goes into the "normal" >energy level. >At this point, we have two electrons with much different energies, >with the "normal" electron energy being modified by the presence of the other >electron. Consequently, any compound formed by this ion will be different from a >normal compound. If this is the basis for the new chemistry, I'm beginning to >understand. If I haven't misunderstood you, then I think you've got the drift. >However, let's go on. > >> > At >> >that point it bonds with another H which is "normal". >> >> If you are referring to what I wrote above, then that isn't quite what I >> meant. What I meant was that since the second electron is only bound to a >> one-fold shrunken hydrino by 3.05 eV, it should be easily able to surrender >> that electron to an H+ ion (which upon binding the electron releases 13.6 >> eV), resulting in a plain hydrino of level 2 (i.e. half the size of >> hydrogen), and an H atom, each of which would then go their separate ways. > >Here you seem to be saying that the "shrunken" electron in one hydrino atom can >transfer to a bare proton (H+) and enter a lower "shrunken" level, thereby giving >off more energy. I assume, the electron in the "normal" level remains behind as >an innocent observer unless it has a way of shedding energy by the unique >nonradiative process. For this model to be internally consistent, an electron can >not enter or leave the "shrunken" energy levels unless it can shed or acquire >energy by the unique nonradiative process. Therefore, I do not see how an >electron coming from the "normal" world can bond with a hydrino and thereafter >move into a "shrunken" level, as you suggest. Actually I was trying to describe what I believe can happen with the normal electron. I.e. Say we start with Hy(n=1/2), and it captures a free electron releasing 3.05 eV, and becoming Hy-(n=1/2). This normal electron is therefore only bound with 3.05 eV, which is even less than the binding energy of Cesium's 6S1 electron. Given that we know that Cs reacts violently with water, relinquishing it's 6S1 electron, we might reasonably expect Hy-(n=1/2) to do the same, returning to the Hy(n=1/2) state as a hydrino. The same argument can be made for Hy(n=1/3-4). At Hy(n=1/5) it stops, because the binding energy of the normal electron is greater than the ionisation energy of H, hence the reaction: Hy-(n=1/5) + H+ -> Hy(n=1/5) + H won't run. Note that the actual orbit of the "normal" electron in each case is smaller for increasing values of "n" (AFAIK). The discourse above was why I suspect that not much Hy(n=1/2-4) would be found in hydrino compounds produced by means of water electrolysis. >In brief, once an electron is >"shrunken" it can not enter into any interaction with another atom, except to >exchange with another H atom. I think Mills says another Hy. >This is consistent with Mill's claim that a hydrino >will not react with oxygen to make water. When the Hy(n=1/2) was formed, some 40.8 eV in total is released to the environment, so in order for something else to remove the electron (as oxygen commonly does, when it combines with electron donors), the energy gained by (e.g.) the oxygen capturing the electron would have to exceed 40.8 eV. That's a pretty tough row to hoe. [snip] >Would this mean that both electrons in the H- are in the same "shrunken" level, in >different "shrunken" levels, or one "shrunken" and one "normal"? As I have tried to explain above, I think the answer is "one shrunken (unreachable) and one shrunken "normal". BTW I think Mills is relying on the "shrunken normal" electron for the development of his battery project. For smaller values of "n", the binding energy of the "normal" electron can be quite interesting e.g. for n=1/13 it is 65.62 eV, which presumably would give rise to a battery with a cell voltage of about 65 volts, and very light weight, as the weight is determined by the weight of the nucleus (which is only a proton in this case, rather than say a Pb atom). >I would think >that since many K+ ions are easily available in the proposed compound, that this >material would continue to give off energy as all of the electrons associated with >H gradually decayed to the lowest shrunken levels, whereupon the chemical >properties of the material would continuously change. Why does this not happen? According to Mills, once Hy-(n=anything) is formed, it is no longer available for shrinkage (note the "-"). My own suspicion is that it may be, but that the energy hole would have a different magnitude, hence a different catalyst would be needed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 25 22:09:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23861; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:08:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:08:22 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:07:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FE B4AB2 ix.netcom.com> <38DB9378.D21A9C66@ix.netcom.com> <38DCDE15.9CCE3E86@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DCDE15.9CCE3E86 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA23839 Resent-Message-ID: <"qEfIr.0.lq5.MbQtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:41:13 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >> These cages however are dynamic, resulting in the occasional exposure of the >> ions. If this were not so, then AgCl wouldn't precipitate when solutions of >> AgNO3 and NaCl are mixed, because the ions wouldn't be able to reach each >> other. > >True, but in the Mills case, three atoms, two of which having the same charge, must get >together at the same instant in time and exchange energy. In the case of Ag+ and Cl-, only >two ions of opposite charge get together to form a very stable molecule. I suggest the two >situations are not the same. Granted, the Mills requirement would seem to be much less likely. However it does have a couple of other things going for it, as previously mentioned by Mitchell Swartz. E.g. the high concentration of both K+ and H in the neighbourhood of the cathode, and also the field of the cathode itself may have some effect on the polar water molecules, disrupting to some extent their cage forming ability. [snip] >> On average, this is probably true, however there will be random occasions >> when it is not. There is also the possibility that the very cages you >> mention above (or partial cages) perform the function of a surface, that you >> find necessary (sort of analogous to the functioning of enzymes perhaps, >> where shape is so important?). > >This argument seems like a leap of faith based on a desperate need to make the model work. Heh, you noticed! ;) >Actually, if this process can work, there is no need for electrolysis. You can argue that >K+, which is naturally present, and H which can form at random times from the H+ present, >all can come together as you suggest. If your model is correct, we should see hydrogen >shrinking all around us. I suspect that the formation of H in water without electrolysis is extremely limited. But to some extent in may indeed happen, witness the oft quoted low relative preponderance of K+ in sea water (thanks Fred Sparber). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 06:16:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA31966; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 06:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 06:14:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326090621.007de810 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:06:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: References: <38DCDE15.9CCE3E86 ix.netcom.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8 earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6 ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb 4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FEB4AB2 ix.netcom.com> <38DB9378.D21A9C66 ix.netcom.com> <38DCDE15.9CCE3E86 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HBDyS.0.Kp7.qiXtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:07 PM 3/26/00 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:41:13 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >[snip] >>> These cages however are dynamic, resulting in the occasional exposure of the >>> ions. If this were not so, then AgCl wouldn't precipitate when solutions of >>> AgNO3 and NaCl are mixed, because the ions wouldn't be able to reach each >>> other. >> >>True, but in the Mills case, three atoms, two of which having the same charge, must get >>together at the same instant in time and exchange energy. In the case of Ag+ and Cl-, only >>two ions of opposite charge get together to form a very stable molecule. I suggest the two >>situations are not the same. > >Granted, the Mills requirement would seem to be much less likely. However it >does have a couple of other things going for it, as previously mentioned by >Mitchell Swartz. E.g. the high concentration of both K+ and H in the >neighbourhood of the cathode, and also the field of the cathode itself may >have some effect on the polar water molecules, disrupting to some extent >their cage forming ability. Very good point. The disrupting ability, cited by Robin, has consequence as well making materials further available, through the double layer, and into the important locations of the cathode. Also, the electrical polarization of the cathode gives a "sea" of electrons which is very large. The impact of analysis by continuum electrodynamic principles suggests that "electrolysis" was a red herring (1), but only in that the applied electric field intensity must be carefully controlled (2). (1) "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997)) Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300; Swartz, M., 1994, "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode" Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77). "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion Technology, 32. 126-130 (1997) (2) Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox "Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) Swartz, M, 1998, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 --------------------------------------------------------------- >[snip] >>> On average, this is probably true, however there will be random occasions >>> when it is not. There is also the possibility that the very cages you >>> mention above (or partial cages) perform the function of a surface, that you >>> find necessary (sort of analogous to the functioning of enzymes perhaps, >>> where shape is so important?). >> >>This argument seems like a leap of faith based on a desperate need to make the model work. > >Heh, you noticed! ;) > >>Actually, if this process can work, there is no need for electrolysis. You can argue that >>K+, which is naturally present, and H which can form at random times from the H+ present, >>all can come together as you suggest. If your model is correct, we should see hydrogen >>shrinking all around us. > >I suspect that the formation of H in water without electrolysis is extremely >limited. But to some extent in may indeed happen ... >Robin van Spaandonk Robin is correct here, too. Such species (including solvated electrons) are well-known from radiochemistry, where they occur more often (though still limited). The atomic hydrogen is very common on the surface of some metal cathodes (e.g. see Uhlig's and Bockris' texts on electrochemistry). Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 08:44:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31540; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:41:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:41:16 -0800 Message-ID: <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:44:02 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF 67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6FnyY3.0.ki7.isZtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:55:11 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >For the > >sake of this discussion , let's assume it has reached the first level. Whereupon, > >another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of > >potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. > > Not quite. There is only one energy level for the second electron, for each > sized hydrino (AFAIK or understand). As follows: > > Hy (n=1/2) --> Hy- = 3.05 eV (energy released by binding second electron). > Hy (n=1/3) --> Hy- = 6.61 eV (ditto) > Hy (n=1/4) --> Hy- = 11.23 eV etc. > Hy (n=1/5) --> Hy- = 16.7 eV etc. Robin, I don't see how what you said differs from what I said. Therefore, we must be in agreement. > > As you note > >above, we have the first four (3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV) shrunken > >levels and the "normal" quantum level. > >However, to reach the shrunken levels, an > >electron must lose energy by the unique nonradiative process. The first electron > >did this and now occupies the first level. The second electron looks at this > >assembly and must find at home. It can not enter the "shrunken" levels unless it > >loses energy. How is this loss accomplished without K+ or a similar sink being > >present? > > I get the impression that no energy hole mechanism is required for the > second electron. This would seem to imply that a hydrino once formed is just > as "accessible" to a second electron as a normal ground state hydrogen atom > would be (i.e. as in H + e- -> H-). Here, once again I have a problem as I discussed previously. In the "nonshrunken" world, when electrons go from one normal level to another, they lose energy by giving off quantized radiation. This radiation is absorbed by the material and is converted to the observed heat. On the other hand, an electron can not enter the "shrunken" levels because release of quantized energy is not possible. Therefore this energy must be transferred by a novel, nonquantized process involving another atom having appropriate properties. This being the case, what happens when a second electron leaves a normal quantized level and attempts to enter the "shrunken" level in a hydrino hydrogen, in order to form Hyy-? How does this additional electron get rid of its energy? Do the rules proposed by Mills only apply to the first electron, as you imply? If so, this seems very strange to me. Also, do spin rules (i.e. can only two electrons occupy the same energy level) apply to "shrunken" electrons? In other words, are they partially quantized? > > >In the absence of such a sink, the electron goes into the "normal" > >energy level. > >At this point, we have two electrons with much different energies, > >with the "normal" electron energy being modified by the presence of the other > >electron. Consequently, any compound formed by this ion will be different from a > >normal compound. If this is the basis for the new chemistry, I'm beginning to > >understand. > > If I haven't misunderstood you, then I think you've got the drift. > > >However, let's go on. > > > >> > At > >> >that point it bonds with another H which is "normal". > >> > >> If you are referring to what I wrote above, then that isn't quite what I > >> meant. What I meant was that since the second electron is only bound to a > >> one-fold shrunken hydrino by 3.05 eV, it should be easily able to surrender > >> that electron to an H+ ion (which upon binding the electron releases 13.6 > >> eV), resulting in a plain hydrino of level 2 (i.e. half the size of > >> hydrogen), and an H atom, each of which would then go their separate ways. > > > >Here you seem to be saying that the "shrunken" electron in one hydrino atom can > >transfer to a bare proton (H+) and enter a lower "shrunken" level, thereby giving > >off more energy. I assume, the electron in the "normal" level remains behind as > >an innocent observer unless it has a way of shedding energy by the unique > >nonradiative process. For this model to be internally consistent, an electron can > >not enter or leave the "shrunken" energy levels unless it can shed or acquire > >energy by the unique nonradiative process. Therefore, I do not see how an > >electron coming from the "normal" world can bond with a hydrino and thereafter > >move into a "shrunken" level, as you suggest. > > Actually I was trying to describe what I believe can happen with the normal > electron. I.e. > > Say we start with Hy(n=1/2), and it captures a free electron releasing 3.05 > eV, and becoming Hy-(n=1/2). > > This normal electron is therefore only bound with 3.05 eV, which is even > less than the binding energy of Cesium's 6S1 electron. Given that we know > that Cs reacts violently with water, relinquishing it's 6S1 electron, > we might reasonably expect Hy-(n=1/2) to do the same, returning to the > Hy(n=1/2) state as a hydrino. But once again, we are presented with the problem of quantized energy. In the case of Ce, the electron goes from one quantum level to another. In the case of Hy-, the electron is going from a nonquantum level to a quantum level. How is this possible? It seems to me that if Mills is going to change the rules, we all must at least apply this change in a consistent manner. For the process to be internally consistent, we would have the following process: A hydrino is formed by the proposed process. Because the normal 1s quantized level is now vacant, a quantized electron is picked up from the quantum world to form Hy-. However, the 1s energy level is altered by the presence of the "shrunken" hydrogen. Consequently, this hydrogen ion has different properties from normal H- which has two quantized electrons of opposite spin. When chemical compounds form involving the Hy-, only the quantized 1s electron is involved. Therefore, a battery based on the "shrunken" electron is not possible unless a means is provided to remove this energy by the novel, nonquantized process. Normal chemistry will not work. > > The same argument can be made for Hy(n=1/3-4). At Hy(n=1/5) it stops, > because the binding energy of the normal electron is greater than the > ionisation energy of H, hence the reaction: > > Hy-(n=1/5) + H+ -> Hy(n=1/5) + H won't run. > > Note that the actual orbit of the "normal" electron in each case is smaller > for increasing values of "n" (AFAIK). Yes, I agree. This change in the orbit of the normal electron is what makes these compounds unique. > The discourse above was why I suspect that not much Hy(n=1/2-4) would be > found in hydrino compounds produced by means of water electrolysis. > > >In brief, once an electron is > >"shrunken" it can not enter into any interaction with another atom, except to > >exchange with another H atom. > > I think Mills says another Hy. Agreed > > >This is consistent with Mill's claim that a hydrino > >will not react with oxygen to make water. > > When the Hy(n=1/2) was formed, some 40.8 eV in total is released to the > environment, so in order for something else to remove the electron (as > oxygen commonly does, when it combines with electron donors), the energy > gained by (e.g.) the oxygen capturing the electron would have to exceed > 40.8 eV. That's a pretty tough row to hoe. In addition to this problem, I suggest another one. To form water, H transfers its electron to O producing O-- and 2H+. Actually, the effect is more complex but this is the simplified version. This transfer produces two ions which are bonded by a combination of ionic and covalent bonding, a very stable structure. On the other hand, when Hy- transfers its "normal" electron to O we have O-- and 2Hy which are neutral. As a result, an unbalanced charge separation exists, which is not possible. Consequently, Hy can not form a stable compound with a cation. Another interesting observation. Normal H2 is bonded by two shared electrons, again a stable condition. However, the Hy - H molecule would be bonded by only one electron, a rather unstable condition. Therefore, this molecule would be easy to decompose and would have different properties compared to normal H2 gas. > > [snip] > >Would this mean that both electrons in the H- are in the same "shrunken" level, in > >different "shrunken" levels, or one "shrunken" and one "normal"? > > As I have tried to explain above, I think the answer is "one shrunken > (unreachable) and one shrunken "normal". Do you mean by this statement, one "shrunken" electron and one "quantized"? > > BTW I think Mills is relying on the "shrunken normal" electron for the > development of his battery project. > For smaller values of "n", the binding energy of the "normal" electron can > be quite interesting e.g. for n=1/13 it is 65.62 eV, which presumably would > give rise to a battery with a cell voltage of about 65 volts, and very light > weight, as the weight is determined by the weight of the nucleus (which is > only a proton in this case, rather than say a Pb atom). For the model to be consistent, he needs a catalyst in the battery which can transfer energy in a nonquantized manner. This might present a practical problem which I'm sure he is trying to solve. > > >I would think > >that since many K+ ions are easily available in the proposed compound, that this > >material would continue to give off energy as all of the electrons associated with > >H gradually decayed to the lowest shrunken levels, whereupon the chemical > >properties of the material would continuously change. Why does this not happen? > > According to Mills, once Hy-(n=anything) is formed, it is no longer > available for shrinkage (note the "-"). > My own suspicion is that it may be, but that the energy hole would have a > different magnitude, hence a different catalyst would be needed. Yes, I agree. This problem would add to the difficulty of actually using these compounds for energy production or storage. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 08:49:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00770; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:48:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:48:52 -0800 Message-ID: <38DE401E.EABC9194 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:51:53 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FE B4AB2 ix.netcom.com> <38DB9378.D21A9C66@ix.netcom.com> <38DCDE15.9CCE3E86@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EsmJf.0.yB.pzZtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > >Actually, if this process can work, there is no need for electrolysis. You can argue that > >K+, which is naturally present, and H which can form at random times from the H+ present, > >all can come together as you suggest. If your model is correct, we should see hydrogen > >shrinking all around us. > > I suspect that the formation of H in water without electrolysis is extremely > limited. But to some extent in may indeed happen, witness the oft quoted low > relative preponderance of K+ in sea water (thanks Fred Sparber). > [snip] Of course, this absence of expected K+ can be explained by its selective removal by life forms in the ocean. On the other hand, life forms have been shown to initiate various nuclear reactions within their structures. This might involve production of highly shrunken hydrogen which can enter the nucleus of atoms to give the sought for nutrients. But now we are getting into the world of dreams. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 16:04:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20359; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:03:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:03:40 -0800 Message-ID: <028e01bf9777$160211c0$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Molecular Distillation of Hydrinos or Sparberinos? Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:59:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"RNteU2.0.yz4.SLgtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Molecular Distillation of water that supposedly contains Hydrinos or the proposed Neutral (-)H2O(+) or (-)D2O(+) and/or (-)HDO(+)Species under vacuum and low temperature might effect separation of these from water: Q = 0.583*P*C*(M/T)^1/2 (grams/sec per square meter) Where P is the vapor pressure in microns, M is the molecular weight, T in Deg K, Q is dependent on the partial pressure of any constituent, and C is the Evaporation Coefficient (Unity for a stirred still, but as low as 0.01 for a stagnant distilland). Note the OU Effects in Stirred vs Stagnant Water Experiments. :-) Will you be able to detect these in the BLP (HiFi) experiment, Scott? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 16:08:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20340; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:03:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:03:39 -0800 Message-ID: <02a101bf9779$4b9ed280$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Molecular Stills Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 15:14:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF9736.027DF2E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"dnduw3.0.kz4.RLgtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF9736.027DF2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.pope.thomasregister.com/olc/pope/wiped.htm ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF9736.027DF2E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Pope Scientific, Inc..url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Pope Scientific, Inc..url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.pope.thomasregister.com/olc/pope/wiped.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.pope.thomasregister.com/olc/pope/wiped.htm Modified=206CD4EB7897BF011A ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF9736.027DF2E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 16:14:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23530; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: <027b01bf9766$a2bb3760$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000322104853.013a3e80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000322161946.0079f860@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000322164958.013a3bb8@earthtech.org> <38DA455A.17EEE0A6@ix.netcom.com> <2b6lds8tvuc9oib5c2ahugaonio6csv1cb@4ax.com> <38DAAA18.FE B4AB2 ix.netcom.com> <38DB9378.D21A9C66@ix.netcom.com> <38DCDE15.9CCE3E86@ix.netcom.com> <38DE401E.EABC9194@ix.netcom.co m> Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:01:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"RAGkm.0.Yl5.KUgtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 8:51 AM Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 Ed Storms wrote: > > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > I suspect that the formation of H in water without electrolysis is extremely > > limited. But to some extent in may indeed happen, witness the oft quoted low > > relative preponderance of K+ in sea water (thanks Fred Sparber). > > [snip] > > Of course, this absence of expected K+ can be explained by its selective removal by life forms > in the ocean. On the other hand, life forms have been shown to initiate various nuclear > reactions within their structures. This might involve production of highly shrunken hydrogen > which can enter the nucleus of atoms to give the sought for nutrients. But now we are getting > into the world of dreams. Gosh, Ed, the 35% saline oceans contain ~ 4.87E16 tons of salt with a Na/K ratio of ~27: 1 that makes ~ 1.8E15 tons of K which is "recycled", in marine life (plant-animal) decay. With up 1.0% K in plant life and less in animal that gives a marine life weight of ~1.8E17 tons, which makes the weight of Marine Life nearly 4 times the weight of "Salt" in the oceans! The Red Herring population is quite significant also. :-) As to "sought for nutrients" you make a good argument for production of Magnesium and Calcium in "life form structures", which are scarce in seawater: P* + Na23 ---> Mg24 + Negatrino + ~ 9.5 Mev P* + K39 ---> Ca40 + Negatrino + ~ 9.5 Mev Mother Nature looks after her own, doesn't she? Regards, Frederick > > Ed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 16:14:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23451; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:05 -0800 Message-ID: <028801bf976d$d76df400$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Abundance of Elements (in Seawater etc) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:54:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF972A.BE963980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"IYY4v3.0.Lk5.FUgtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF972A.BE963980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A good site to bookmark. http://www.webelements.com/webelements.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF972A.BE963980 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="WebElements periodic table of the elements - the periodic table on the World-Wide Web.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="WebElements periodic table of the elements - the periodic table on the World-Wide Web.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.webelements.com/webelements.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.webelements.com/webelements.html Modified=8065D3676D97BF01E3 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF972A.BE963980-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 16:17:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25197; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:16:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:16:48 -0800 Message-ID: <38DEA79E.1F40 skylink.net> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:18 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! References: <38DC106B.4C52@skylink.net> <38DC33CD.83042BE1@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R0dqZ3.0.d96.lXgtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Why? I want to disagree (though fear you are at least 1/2 right about PK) > > Two solid choices have recently been established to explain > > this type of phenomena. > > 1. It is a hoax or fraud. > > 2. It is poltergeists or some kind of witchcraft. Fred Epps wrote: >I take it this is a form of deadpan humor :-) Yes. The theater of the absurd in which we find ourselves. The first choice serves expert scientists and their sponsors -- those who know that the experiment defies established physical laws and is therefore impossible. The second choice serves those who may have actually witnessed the experiment, as well as that segment of the population which might be gullible enough to believe reports of credible witnesses. Poltergeists? I don't think so. Witch-hunts? I hope not. The Truth -- Existing theories are inadequate to explain the experiment. Fred Epps wrote: > This seems to me to be the key point, since most of TT Brown's difficulties > sprung from his inability to create a dipole field of enough intensity to > lift the craft in air without creating arcing.. .. Leaving aside the means > by which it happens. Fred. Yes, but I think not the key point. More important is: The ratio of the electric flux density to the electric field in the cylinder is NOT equal to the vacuum permitivity (e0). It is much larger. Preliminary analysis indicates that the effective permittivity within the shell is: (1/2)(C)/l. Where C is the total capacitance of the shell, and l is the length of the shell. By doubly connecting the geometry -- i.e. wrapping the capacitance into a cylinder, we may change the vacuum permittivty, and/or manage to create a more easily polarized physical vacuum. It may be that Div(D) is not zero in the cylinder. Recent reports of development of negative permittivity, in spaces which are connected with chiral geometries of conductors and dielectrics may be related to the same principal. I find something similar in analysis of Morgan's experiment: Harvey Morgan, "Now We Can Explore the Universe", IEEE AES Systems Magazine, January 1988, pp3-10. The angular momentum field, is demonstrated to couple across an air-gap between two flywheels, resulting in behaviour remarkably similar to magnetic induction. Morgan used lead disks to demonstrate this. Analysis of the gravinetic fields of a rotating cylindrical shell indicates that the ratio of the gravimagnetic flux density to the gravimagnetic field strength is equal to (1/2)(l)/m -- where m is the mass of the shell and l is the length of the shell. It is not equal to what some think is the gravimagnetic vacuum permeability: (4)(Pi)/Gc^2. It is much larger. In the electromagnetic case, it seems that this type of effect can be generated by doubly connecting the geometry. In the gravitational case, it appears that the effect happens in a singly connected geometry. This result may be due to gravitational fields being spin 2, and electromagnetic fields being spin 1. I believe the gravity-warp capacitor experiment might very well produce gravitational effects. If so, the magnetic dual of this experiment should also produce gravitational effects. In some ways the magnetic dual is easier to analyze. Lay a number of long length solenoids in a parallel sheet. Doubly connect the system by wrapping the sheet into a cylindrical shell. The same type of effect happens. The B field in the center of the shell is much larger than the available magnetomotive force which would be required to produce the B field, if B = (u)H. It may be somewhat easier to see this in the magnetic system, than in the doubly connected electric system. Look at the superposition of the magnetic vector potential within the shell produced by each of the solenoidal coils. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 17:24:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11538; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:23:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:23:50 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re:Possible Transmutations in Nature Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:35:56 -0500 Message-ID: <20000327013556671.AAA113 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"JKj8i2.0.Aq2.YWhtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred writes: >Gosh, Ed, the 35% saline oceans contain ~ 4.87E16 tons of salt with a Na/K ratio >of ~27: 1 that makes ~ 1.8E15 tons of K which is "recycled", in marine life (plant-animal) >decay. With up 1.0% K in plant life and less in animal that gives a marine life weight >of ~1.8E17 tons, which makes the weight of Marine Life nearly 4 times the weight >of "Salt" in the oceans! The Red Herring population is quite significant also. :-) > >As to "sought for nutrients" you make a good argument for production of >Magnesium and Calcium in "life form structures", which are scarce in seawater: > >P* + Na23 ---> Mg24 + Negatrino + ~ 9.5 Mev > >P* + K39 ---> Ca40 + Negatrino + ~ 9.5 Mev > >Mother Nature looks after her own, doesn't she? > >Regards, Frederick It's weird thing that you mention red herring Fred, because that is where something pretty unusual does indeed happen. On the Polar Bear we froze herring from the Prince William Sound and the Togiak regions, and had to do some additional temperature tests after the Japanese customers were reporting that the fish were bad. We would bag them into 40lb. bags, quick freeze the bags to a temp of -40F, and then store the bags in a cargo freezer at -10F for about a week before offloading them to a tramper. The tramper had a cargo freezer that was also at -10F, and it would be between 1 and 2 weeks before they were offloaded in Japan. All of this stuff was monitored pretty closely, of course, since it was food for human consumption. The bags were frozen completely solid when they left the quick freeze. The fish that were bad were at the very center of the bags, and were actually rotten by the time they reached Japan. The Japanese techs told me that the bags were not cold enough at the very center, and that they needed a longer time in the quick freezer, which I did, and that took care of the problem. It struck me as odd though, that bacteria could grow at that temperature if the bags were kept at least -10F for over two weeks after being quick frozen, but I guess they can. It would have seemed to me that even if the center of the bag was just a bit warmer that eventually the entire bag would have come down in temperature, but the bacteria evidently kept the center of the bag just warm enough for them to still grow. Maybe the bugs know some tricks we don't, who knows? Maybe transmutation is one of them. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 17:45:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17139; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:44:56 -0800 Message-ID: <38DEBB0B.B12F51E2 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:36:12 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! References: <38DC106B.4C52@skylink.net> <38DC33CD.83042BE1@ihug.co.nz> <38DEA79E.1F40@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P7Cyc1.0.jB4.Nqhtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The problem is that all too often these devices seem to only work for the person who invented it (or location or time or EXACT way it is constructed or the impurities of the material) So I fear that some designs will require something to kick it into action such as a special person. Robert Stirniman wrote: > John Berry wrote: > > Why? I want to disagree (though fear you are at least 1/2 right about PK) > > > > Two solid choices have recently been established to explain > > > this type of phenomena. > > > 1. It is a hoax or fraud. > > > 2. It is poltergeists or some kind of witchcraft. > > Fred Epps wrote: > >I take it this is a form of deadpan humor :-) > > Yes. The theater of the absurd in which we find ourselves. > The first choice serves expert scientists and their > sponsors -- those who know that the experiment defies established > physical laws and is therefore impossible. The second choice > serves those who may have actually witnessed the experiment, as > well as that segment of the population which might be gullible > enough to believe reports of credible witnesses. > > Poltergeists? I don't think so. > Witch-hunts? I hope not. > The Truth -- Existing theories are inadequate to explain the > experiment. > > Fred Epps wrote: > > This seems to me to be the key point, since most of TT Brown's difficulties > > sprung from his inability to create a dipole field of enough intensity to > > lift the craft in air without creating arcing.. .. Leaving aside the means > > by which it happens. > > Fred. Yes, but I think not the key point. More important is: The ratio > of the electric flux density to the electric field in the cylinder is > NOT equal to the vacuum permitivity (e0). It is much larger. Preliminary > analysis indicates that the effective permittivity within the shell is: > (1/2)(C)/l. Where C is the total capacitance of the shell, and l is > the length of the shell. By doubly connecting the geometry -- i.e. > wrapping the capacitance into a cylinder, we may change the vacuum > permittivty, and/or manage to create a more easily polarized physical > vacuum. It may be that Div(D) is not zero in the cylinder. > > Recent reports of development of negative permittivity, in spaces > which are connected with chiral geometries of conductors and > dielectrics may be related to the same principal. > > I find something similar in analysis of Morgan's experiment: > > Harvey Morgan, "Now We Can Explore the Universe", IEEE AES Systems > Magazine, January 1988, pp3-10. > The angular momentum field, is demonstrated to couple across an > air-gap between two flywheels, resulting in behaviour remarkably > similar to magnetic induction. > > Morgan used lead disks to demonstrate this. Analysis of the gravinetic > fields of a rotating cylindrical shell indicates that the ratio of > the gravimagnetic flux density to the gravimagnetic field strength > is equal to (1/2)(l)/m -- where m is the mass of the shell and l is > the length of the shell. It is not equal to what some think is the > gravimagnetic vacuum permeability: (4)(Pi)/Gc^2. It is much larger. > > In the electromagnetic case, it seems that this type of effect can > be generated by doubly connecting the geometry. In the gravitational > case, it appears that the effect happens in a singly connected > geometry. This result may be due to gravitational fields being > spin 2, and electromagnetic fields being spin 1. > > I believe the gravity-warp capacitor experiment might very well > produce gravitational effects. If so, the magnetic dual of this > experiment should also produce gravitational effects. In some > ways the magnetic dual is easier to analyze. Lay a number > of long length solenoids in a parallel sheet. Doubly connect > the system by wrapping the sheet into a cylindrical shell. > > The same type of effect happens. The B field in the center of > the shell is much larger than the available magnetomotive force > which would be required to produce the B field, if B = (u)H. > It may be somewhat easier to see this in the magnetic system, > than in the doubly connected electric system. Look at the > superposition of the magnetic vector potential within the shell > produced by each of the solenoidal coils. > > Regards, > Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 18:24:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28401; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:23:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:23:51 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:23:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38DC106B.4C52@skylink.net> <38DC33CD.83042BE1@ihug.co.nz> <38DEA79E.1F40@skylink.net> In-Reply-To: <38DEA79E.1F40 skylink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA28385 Resent-Message-ID: <"7WXVZ2.0.hx6.tOitu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:18 -0800, Robert Stirniman wrote: [snip] >I find something similar in analysis of Morgan's experiment: > > Harvey Morgan, "Now We Can Explore the Universe", IEEE AES Systems > Magazine, January 1988, pp3-10. > The angular momentum field, is demonstrated to couple across an > air-gap between two flywheels, resulting in behaviour remarkably > similar to magnetic induction. > >Morgan used lead disks to demonstrate this. Analysis of the gravinetic This also appears to be related to the Henry W. Wallace patents. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 18:25:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA27671; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:19:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:19:59 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:19:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38DC106B.4C52@skylink.net> <38DC33CD.83042BE1@ihug.co.nz> <38DEA79E.1F40@skylink.net> In-Reply-To: <38DEA79E.1F40 skylink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA27639 Resent-Message-ID: <"1hkU61.0.Bm6.FLitu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:18 -0800, Robert Stirniman wrote: [snip] >ways the magnetic dual is easier to analyze. Lay a number >of long length solenoids in a parallel sheet. Doubly connect >the system by wrapping the sheet into a cylindrical shell. > >The same type of effect happens. The B field in the center of >the shell is much larger than the available magnetomotive force >which would be required to produce the B field, if B = (u)H. >It may be somewhat easier to see this in the magnetic system, >than in the doubly connected electric system. Look at the >superposition of the magnetic vector potential within the shell >produced by each of the solenoidal coils. > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman You have just described a large part of Paul Brown's isotopic reactor , patent nr. US4835433 (This apparently has "problems" on the IBM patent server). This patent is similar to the previous work of Alfred Hubbard. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 18:33:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32404; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:32:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:32:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:32:08 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF 67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA32378 Resent-Message-ID: <"sQDlm3.0.Ew7.EXitu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:44:02 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >> >another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of >> >potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. >> >> Not quite. There is only one energy level for the second electron, for each >> sized hydrino (AFAIK or understand). As follows: >> >> Hy (n=1/2) --> Hy- = 3.05 eV (energy released by binding second electron). >> Hy (n=1/3) --> Hy- = 6.61 eV (ditto) >> Hy (n=1/4) --> Hy- = 11.23 eV etc. >> Hy (n=1/5) --> Hy- = 16.7 eV etc. > >Robin, I don't see how what you said differs from what I said. Therefore, we must be >in agreement. AFAIK the second electron has only one energy level available (for each value of n), not a collection of energy levels. I.e. you can see it as a quantum level if you wish, but only the ground state exists before ionisation takes place. Note: I could very well have the bull by the tale here. You have reached the limit of my understanding of Mills' theory, so I suggest you go directly to the source for a better understanding. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 21:09:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08613; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:08:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000323020640796.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:06:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Resent-Message-ID: <"6fXEs3.0.U62.voktu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:28:45 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>By the way: I noticed a newspaper article the other day which clearly >>indicated that there are now killer bees in Sydney, and yet the authorities >>there apparently didn't notice that the bees were behaving abnormally! Does >>that mean Australian politicians are dumber than their American >>counterparts? If so, you guys are in deep trouble. > >My guess is that there are dumb pollies on both sides of the pacific. >[snip] >>>Suppose however that the K shell were to shrink under "pressure from above", >>>or perhaps K-S and L-S concurrently, leaving L-P "out in the cold"? >> >>***{I think enough has been learned from the study of impurities in crystal >>lattices to discount the possibility that the impurity atoms shrink under >>normal conditions. > >I left out what I thought was obvious. Apparently it wasn't. I meant that >the inner S sub-shells might shrink under influence of a Mills type >catalyst, not under ordinary circumstances. ***{The world is awash in "Mills type catalysts", Robin. That means their presence is very much a part of circumstances which we can reasonably consider to be "ordinary." Thus we should be awash in "shrunken atoms", and they should have been identified long ago. This, to me, is the most difficult part of the Mills theory to accept. --MJ}*** By "pressure from above" I was >implying that the "higher" lying electrons might act as energy transfer >agents, losslessly transferring the energy of the collapsing inner >sub-shell(s) to the catalyst. ***{Mills doesn't make such claims, as far as I know. If he did, his theory would become even more untenable than it is at present. In that case, we should not merely be awash with "hydrinos", but also with "heliuminos," "lithinos," "berylinos," and so on. Besides, the mere fact that we can use the word "catalyst" in this context does not mean we have explained anything. We still need to have some sort of mechanism in mind to explain how the "catalyst" reaches through multiple overlying shells to exert influence on the inner shell. We know that the process cannot involve literal "pressure," because ordinary materials support pressures of mind-boggling vastness without producing "shrunken atoms." The reason that is possible is that the effects of pressure are transferred from atom to atom within the lattice. Slight readjustments of position by the atoms within a solid object have the result of equalizing the pressures borne by the various individual atoms. Since there are mind-bogglingly vast numbers of them, the pressure on each becomes negligibly small, and shrinkage of the atoms themselves is not necessary. (The outer shell electrons of adjacent atoms in a lattice never touch. They stand apart due to the mutual repulsion of their negative charges. Thus when pressure is applied, they can move slightly closer together without the necessity for orbital disruptions.) If you seriously entertain the notion that the Mills theory might be true for atoms with more than one shell, by what mechanism do you propose that the "catalyst" reaches through multiple overlying shells to exert influence on the inner shell? If the above question proves too difficult, then here is an easier one: by what mechanism does a Mills type catalyst cause a single-shell atom (e.g., hydrogen) to shrink? Assuming that the ground-state orbit is stable, pressure alone does not seem likely to promote shrinkage if the orbit is alreaqdy occupied, for the reasons given above. Thus some sort of weird chemical process would have to bleed energy out of the ground-state orbit. But how? When this problem is approached from the protoneutron perspective, such difficulties go away: you don't have to bleed energy out of ground state hydrogen, because protoneutrons only form when a proton meets an electron under conditions where there isn't enough space available to permit the electron to go into the ground state orbit. Result: it spirals down into the lower, and wildly unstable, classical orbits. The result is an unstable neutral particle which I call a protoneutron, which exists only until (a) it moves into a region where there is enough space to permit the ground state orbit, or (b) it receives enough energy to form a neutron, or (c) it passes through the coulomb field of a neighboring nucleus, triggering a nuclear reaction. The advantage of this theory, in my opinion, is, first, that it does not require an explanation for why novel "shrunken atom" compounds have never been found, and, second, the protoneutron's extreme instability renders it plausible that the CF effect would be as elusive as, in fact, it appears to be. --Mitchell Jones}*** >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 21:53:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18387; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:48:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:48:47 -0800 From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:34:59 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: <38DEA79E.1F40 skylink.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"tDlp61.0.DV4._Oltu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robert and all, > > Fred Epps wrote: > >I take it this is a form of deadpan humor :-) > > Yes. I'm glad to hear that :-) > > Poltergeists? I don't think so. It is a non-explanation in any case. How do the poltergeists do it? > The Truth -- Existing theories are inadequate to explain the > experiment. Or many others of a similar nature. > > Fred Epps wrote: > > This seems to me to be the key point, since most of TT Brown's > difficulties > > sprung from his inability to create a dipole field of enough > intensity to > > lift the craft in air without creating arcing.. .. Leaving > aside the means > > by which it happens. > > Fred. Yes, but I think not the key point. More important is: The ratio > of the electric flux density to the electric field in the cylinder is > NOT equal to the vacuum permitivity (e0). It is much larger. Wouldn't this also be true if the cylinder was composed of a high-K dielectric? This is the course TT Brown took to solve his arcing problem. But he didn't break up his capacitor into parallel units, AFAIK. Preliminary > analysis indicates that the effective permittivity within the shell is: > (1/2)(C)/l. Where C is the total capacitance of the shell, and l is > the length of the shell. By doubly connecting the geometry -- i.e. > wrapping the capacitance into a cylinder, we may change the vacuum > permittivty, and/or manage to create a more easily polarized physical > vacuum. In effect creating a torsion field in the cylinder, according to the Shipov theory. If, as the theory says, gravity is due to a longitudinal polarization of the physical vacuum, then an electric field would interact with gravity through it. It may be that Div(D) is not zero in the cylinder. You mean in the central tube? The field has a source, so I guess I don't understand that. > > I find something similar in analysis of Morgan's experiment: > > Harvey Morgan, "Now We Can Explore the Universe", IEEE AES Systems > Magazine, January 1988, pp3-10. Yes, a very interesting experiment. Unfortunately nobody has replicated it under more controlled conditions-- in Harvey's setup there is the possibility of vibrational entrainment through the base. > The angular momentum field, is demonstrated to couple across an > air-gap between two flywheels, resulting in behaviour remarkably > similar to magnetic induction. > > Morgan used lead disks to demonstrate this. Analysis of the gravinetic > fields of a rotating cylindrical shell indicates that the ratio of > the gravimagnetic flux density to the gravimagnetic field strength > is equal to (1/2)(l)/m -- where m is the mass of the shell and l is > the length of the shell. It is not equal to what some think is the > gravimagnetic vacuum permeability: (4)(Pi)/Gc^2. It is much larger. I think you are saying that the gravimagnetic field is a first order effect which should be readily observable in almost any situation with rotating masses of reasonable size. Then why was it not detected in the Barnett experiment, among others? Is it because the Barnett experiment tried to observe it in a static cylinder attached to the moving earth? > > In the electromagnetic case, it seems that this type of effect can > be generated by doubly connecting the geometry. In the gravitational > case, it appears that the effect happens in a singly connected > geometry. This result may be due to gravitational fields being > spin 2, and electromagnetic fields being spin 1. Can you give me some references for the idea of gravity being spin 2? > > I believe the gravity-warp capacitor experiment might very well > produce gravitational effects. So do I. As well as provide a ready source of torsion fields. If so, the magnetic dual of this > experiment should also produce gravitational effects. In some > ways the magnetic dual is easier to analyze. Lay a number > of long length solenoids in a parallel sheet. Doubly connect > the system by wrapping the sheet into a cylindrical shell. I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Do the solenoids run along the length of the cylinder, or around its circumference? It must be along the length... > > The same type of effect happens. The B field in the center of > the shell is much larger than the available magnetomotive force > which would be required to produce the B field, if B = (u)H. > It may be somewhat easier to see this in the magnetic system, > than in the doubly connected electric system. Look at the > superposition of the magnetic vector potential within the shell > produced by each of the solenoidal coils. You may be aware of the gravity drop experiments of Don Kelly, where he dropped platforms containing various coil and magnet combinations and saw pretty major changes in the drop time (20 percent as I recall). These are disputed-- of course. Regards, Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 21:54:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16646; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:43:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:43:38 -0800 Message-ID: <38DEF4F2.20893694 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:43:14 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Off topic question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0Bi731.0.m34.8Kltu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I have a kinda chemical question. I had burded/melted some plates od a dead lead battery on flame inside a mag. :) Little lead is extracted. Remaining is (~3/4) a heavy hardly melting stuff. When melted about 500 C. (less then the melting temp of glass) a nd solidify, become shiny, dark gray, hard (knife does not scratch it) and a fragile material. It does not dissolve on water and not well on HCL. it is nonconductive and non magnetic (no surprise :)) Kind of lead and sulfur or oxide compound? Just Curious . hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 22:03:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA21411; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:00:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:00:55 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:00:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3astds82luhttad381sg84kh75719ej5t3 4ax.com> References: <20000323020640796.AAA123@mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA21386 Resent-Message-ID: <"2O3RE.0.TE5.Maltu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:06:35 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >>I left out what I thought was obvious. Apparently it wasn't. I meant that >>the inner S sub-shells might shrink under influence of a Mills type >>catalyst, not under ordinary circumstances. > >***{The world is awash in "Mills type catalysts", Robin. That means their >presence is very much a part of circumstances which we can reasonably >consider to be "ordinary." Thus we should be awash in "shrunken atoms", and >they should have been identified long ago. This, to me, is the most >difficult part of the Mills theory to accept. --MJ}*** Well at least it is a good counter to my suggestion that the S subshells of higher atoms might undergo shrinkage. > >By "pressure from above" I was >>implying that the "higher" lying electrons might act as energy transfer >>agents, losslessly transferring the energy of the collapsing inner >>sub-shell(s) to the catalyst. > >***{Mills doesn't make such claims, as far as I know. If he did, his theory Agreed, he does not. The notion was mine. >would become even more untenable than it is at present. In that case, we >should not merely be awash with "hydrinos", but also with "heliuminos," >"lithinos," "berylinos," and so on. It depends on various factors, such as: "Can an ion shrink" (most atoms on Earth occur as ions). Just what values would the energy hole take for higher atoms (At a guess, I would say it would get larger for higher charged nuclei. That might rapidly put it beyond the reach of normal chemical energies. I.e. there may not be all that many catalysts around.) There may actually be some of these species around that we usually don't detect because they are chemically almost inert. However you are probably correct. [snip] >If you seriously entertain the notion that the Mills theory might be true >for atoms with more than one shell, by what mechanism do you propose that >the "catalyst" reaches through multiple overlying shells to exert influence >on the inner shell? How does any chemical reaction take place? Primarily through forces mediated by electric fields. Just as a potential can be transferred from atom to atom in a copper wire (or from electron to electron if you prefer), then why not from electron to electron within an atom? > >If the above question proves too difficult, then here is an easier one: by >what mechanism does a Mills type catalyst cause a single-shell atom (e.g., >hydrogen) to shrink? Personally, I suspect it may happen as I outlined above, however I have no notion of what Mills thinks. [snip] Note: In this thread I have frequently put forward a representation of what I believe is Mills theory, and here and there added bits and pieces of my own. I have tried to make clear which was which. At no time however should anything I have said be taken as officially representing the thoughts or policy of Mills or Blacklight Power. I do not speak on their behalf, in any way, shape, manner or form. (And no, I haven't been warned off ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 22:49:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31885; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:48:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:48:00 -0800 Message-ID: <20000327064756.66759.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.96] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Splash Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:47:56 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1lyx93.0.7o7.VGmtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See my new splash page. See the whirlpool. David Dennard The Gravity Paradigm http://www.whirlpower.cc ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 26 23:06:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA04227; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:04:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:04:59 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:04:26 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38DC106B.4C52@skylink.net> <38DC33CD.83042BE1@ihug.co.nz> <38DEA79E.1F40@skylink.net> In-Reply-To: <38DEA79E.1F40 skylink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA04197 Resent-Message-ID: <"UShD22.0.u11.RWmtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:13:18 -0800, Robert Stirniman wrote: [snip] >Fred. Yes, but I think not the key point. More important is: The ratio >of the electric flux density to the electric field in the cylinder is >NOT equal to the vacuum permitivity (e0). It is much larger. Preliminary >analysis indicates that the effective permittivity within the shell is: >(1/2)(C)/l. Where C is the total capacitance of the shell, and l is >the length of the shell. For a capacitance of 1 nF, and a length of 6 in. this works out to 370 x eo. (about the number of plate pairs?) [snip] >I believe the gravity-warp capacitor experiment might very well >produce gravitational effects. If so, the magnetic dual of this >experiment should also produce gravitational effects. In some >ways the magnetic dual is easier to analyze. Lay a number >of long length solenoids in a parallel sheet. Doubly connect >the system by wrapping the sheet into a cylindrical shell. > >The same type of effect happens. The B field in the center of >the shell is much larger than the available magnetomotive force >which would be required to produce the B field, if B = (u)H. >It may be somewhat easier to see this in the magnetic system, >than in the doubly connected electric system. Look at the >superposition of the magnetic vector potential within the shell >produced by each of the solenoidal coils. > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman Do you think it's possible that in a volume of space where the permitivity and permeability are very different than in free space, that the nuclear decay rate might also change? I.e. an "electric rocket" inside wrapped coils might radically change the decay rate of even the longest lived radioisotopes? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 01:00:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA21692; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:54:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:54:02 -0800 Message-ID: <004901bf97c9$a17fef40$9d691a18 hal-9000.cfl.rr.com> Reply-To: "dwenbert" From: "dwenbert" To: Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:51:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"B3HvY.0.sI5.g6otu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Buy one of the new $17 disposable polaroid cameras, take some pictures of the device levitating, and scan them in and send them all out to everyone. Damn the mail byte restrictions. Is this real or isn't it????? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 02:06:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA30959; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 02:05:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 02:05:20 -0800 Message-ID: <02d301bf979d$3ecdd640$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20000327013556671.AAA113 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Re:Possible Transmutations in Nature Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:32:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZBBH13.0.aZ7.W9ptu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 5:35 PM Subject: Re:Possible Transmutations in Nature Knuke wrote: > Fred writes: > The Red Herring population is quite significant > also. :-) > > > >As to "sought for nutrients" you make a good argument for production of > >Magnesium and Calcium in "life form structures", which are scarce in seawater: > > > >P* + Na23 ---> Mg24 + Negatrino + ~ 9.5 Mev > > > >P* + K39 ---> Ca40 + Negatrino + ~ 9.5 Mev > > It's weird thing that you mention red herring Fred, because that is where > something pretty unusual does indeed happen. On the Polar Bear we froze > herring from the Prince William Sound and the Togiak regions, and had to do > some additional temperature tests after the Japanese customers were > reporting that the fish were bad. We would bag them into 40lb. bags, quick > freeze the bags to a temp of -40F, and then store the bags in a cargo > freezer at -10F for about a week before offloading them to a tramper. The > tramper had a cargo freezer that was also at -10F, and it would be between 1 > and 2 weeks before they were offloaded in Japan. All of this stuff was > monitored pretty closely, of course, since it was food for human > consumption. The bags were frozen completely solid when they left the quick > freeze. The fish that were bad were at the very center of the bags, and > were actually rotten by the time they reached Japan. > > The Japanese techs told me that the bags were not cold enough at the very > center, and that they needed a longer time in the quick freezer, which I > did, and that took care of the problem. It struck me as odd though, that > bacteria could grow at that temperature if the bags were kept at least -10F > for over two weeks after being quick frozen, but I guess they can. It would > have seemed to me that even if the center of the bag was just a bit warmer > that eventually the entire bag would have come down in temperature, but the > bacteria evidently kept the center of the bag just warm enough for them to > still grow. Maybe the bugs know some tricks we don't, who knows? Maybe > transmutation is one of them. Not too surprising, Knuke, Bacterial Metabolism involves the prolific exchange of protons, H+ etc, by the coenzymes adenosinediphosphate (ADP) and adenosinetriphosphate (ATP). So, with an abundance of the proposed (-)H2O(+) entities in seawater formed by Solar Insolation on the oceans,along with K or Na locked up in a fish the freezing could "spark" the formation of the "inos" resulting in enough exotherm heat to activate the bacteria. Also the "inos" or mutual annihilation of the LLs are probably responsible for the energy release that pits the ship props, too. There IS NOT enough pressure/energy in the collapse of a bubble with Pressure, P = Surface Tension/Radius to account for the pitting energy. Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 05:34:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30634; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:33:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:33:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327083243.007ab6c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:32:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress 1 In-Reply-To: <38DBF5EB.72799E28 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000323082454.007aed20 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323094922.0079de10 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20000323160244.007a9e80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.20000324104437.01261d80 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20000324172616.0079e100 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Vuvzt.0.aU7._Cstu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >The large calorimeter is an entirely different problem. . . . >I heard >he used a plastic garbage can. Is this true? Garbage can? Please! The correct term is "Nalgene Tank." Nalgene is a brand name for lab supplies. Various tanks are listed on their web page: http://www.nalgenunc.com/map/index.html I do not know which one BLP and Thermacore selected. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 06:09:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA05980; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:08:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:08:50 -0800 Message-ID: From: Jim Dickenson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Off topic question Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:03:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"OB86o3.0.MT1.ojstu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi: It may be a lead-calcium battery. I don't know the chemistry or composition of the plates, but the junk men don't like them as they have very little scrap value. - Jim Dickenson. > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdi ucar [SMTP:hamdix verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: 27 March, 2000 12:43 AM > To: vortex > Subject: Off topic question > > Hi, > > I have a kinda chemical question. I had burded/melted some plates od a > dead lead battery on flame inside a mag. :) Little lead is extracted. > Remaining is (~3/4) a heavy hardly melting stuff. When melted about 500 C. > (less then the melting temp of glass) and solidify, become shiny, dark > gray, hard (knife does not scratch it) and a fragile material. It does not > dissolve on water and not well on HCL. it is nonconductive and non > magnetic (no surprise :)) Kind of lead and sulfur or oxide compound? Just > Curious. > > hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 06:50:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19159; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:50:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:50:04 -0800 Message-ID: <030d01bf97f7$96146ae0$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Fire From Ice? Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:19:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"k-Zfe1.0.Ch4.RKttu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Does the phrase "Fire From Ice", sound familiar? :-) A simple experiment using a small/modified pressure cooker, entails putting about 250 milliliters (~ 1.0 cm depth in an 8 inch diameter pressure cooker) of tap water, and freezing it in the freezer (about -16 deg C at 3.2 deg F) so that the vapor pressure of the ice will be ~1.125 Torr. Using a vacuum pump, pull the air from the frozen container. An ice-water calorimeter at 0.0 deg C in a styrofoam "can" with an electrical discharge running between the water surface and an anode in the cooker should hold the vapor pressure to ~ 4.5 Torr until the ice-bath temperaure starts to rise, which will give an indication of the heat out vs heat in, if the weight of the ice-water is known. Cut me a little slack on this one. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 08:13:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12648; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:12:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:12:36 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000327212623.00adfce0 popmail.esa.lanl.gov> X-Sender: claytor popmail.esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:26:28 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Fwd: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vxOr63.0.V53.qXutu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >X-Authentication-Warning: skule.ecf: hueric owned process doing -bs >Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:03:34 -0500 (EST) >From: HU ERIC WEI-TSE >X-Sender: hueric skule.ecf >To: claytor_t_n lanl.gov > >Dear Dr. Claytor > >My name is Eric Hu and I am an undergraduate student in University >of Toronto, Engineering Science. I am doing a research essay on the topic >of "cold fusion". I am wondering whom I should contact to obtain more >information on the subject? > >Thank you very much, > >Sincerely, > >Eric Hu >Engineering Science, University of Toronto >hueric ecf.utoronto.ca > http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax Shipping Address: Thomas N. Claytor Los Alamos National Lab Receiving/SM 30 Bikini Atoll Rd Los Alamos NM 87545 Attention: Drop Point 01S From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 08:28:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17198; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:26:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:26:48 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38DF9A0C.34B1708F mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:27:40 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF 67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"HwBlt.0.eC4.8lutu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: In the case of Hy-, the electron is going from a nonquantum level to a quantum level. How is this possible? Jack Smith writes: If one wishes to work within the framework of quantum mechanics, then apparently all levels are "quantum" levels, with some levels below the ground state of the Hydrogen electron on the Planet Earth. Mitchell Jones wrote: ***{The world is awash in "Mills type catalysts", Robin. That means their presence is very much a part of circumstances which we can reasonably consider to be "ordinary." Thus we should be awash in "shrunken atoms", and they should have been identified long ago. This, to me, is the most difficult part of the Mills theory to accept. --MJ}*** Robin van Spaandonk wrote: There may actually be some of these species around that we usually don't detect because they are chemically almost inert. Jack Smith writes: Dark matter? The critical data is spectroscopic, and there is plenty of evidence for electron jumps that are different from those we are accustomed to on Earth. Although some may consider it a red herring, not to be discussed under any circumstances, the red shift of quasars has been elegantly explained by Halton Arp as due to the shrunken energy levels of new matter. If Arp is correct (as well as Fred Hoyle), new matter is probably being created on (or in) Earth, and a spectroscopic search might find some unusual spectral lines. Mitchell Jones wrote: When this problem is approached from the protoneutron perspective, ...: you don't have to bleed energy out of ground state hydrogen, because protoneutrons only form when a proton meets an electron under conditions where there isn't enough space available to permit the electron to go into the ground state orbit. Result: it spirals down into the lower, and wildly unstable, classical orbits. The result is an unstable neutral particle which I call a protoneutron, which exists only until (a) it moves into a region where there is enough space to permit the ground state orbit, or (b) it receives enough energy to form a neutron, or (c) it passes through the coulomb field of a neighboring nucleus, triggering a nuclear reaction. The advantage of this theory, in my opinion, is, first, that it does not require an explanation for why novel "shrunken atom" compounds have never been found, and, second, the protoneutron's extreme instability renders it plausible that the CF effect would be as elusive as, in fact, it appears to be. Jack Smith writes: I see no contradiction between the protoneutron theory and the experimental results which Scott is attempting to verify. Passing "through the coulomb field of a neighboring nucleus, triggering a nuclear reaction" is terminology not to be used by someone trying to avoid government nuclear regulation; but "words are counters," nothing more. It is quite a stretch to describe something that proposes to shrink energy levels with the words "chemical reaction". Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 08:43:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22060; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:42:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:42:04 -0800 From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:28:04 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"IZTDz3.0.cO5.Rzutu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robert and Robin, > >ways the magnetic dual is easier to analyze. Lay a number > >of long length solenoids in a parallel sheet. Doubly connect > >the system by wrapping the sheet into a cylindrical shell. > > > >The same type of effect happens. The B field in the center of > >the shell is much larger than the available magnetomotive force > >which would be required to produce the B field, if B = (u)H. > >It may be somewhat easier to see this in the magnetic system, > >than in the doubly connected electric system. Look at the > >superposition of the magnetic vector potential within the shell > >produced by each of the solenoidal coils. > You have just described a large part of Paul Brown's isotopic reactor , > patent nr. US4835433 (This apparently has "problems" on the IBM patent > server). This patent is similar to the previous work of Alfred Hubbard. Yes, this same pattern is seen in the Cater and Perrigo devices, as well as a French patent FR739458 from 1932, "Perpetual Autogenerator Of Electric Energy", which can be seen at http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=FR739458&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD for those who are interested. It makes you wonder if OU could be as simple as a certain electromagnetic topology...naah :-) Regards, Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 08:46:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23673; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:45:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:48:26 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF 67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pRcmj2.0.pn5.d0vtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:44:02 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >> >another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of > >> >potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. > >> > >> Not quite. There is only one energy level for the second electron, for each > >> sized hydrino (AFAIK or understand). As follows: > >> > >> Hy (n=1/2) --> Hy- = 3.05 eV (energy released by binding second electron). > >> Hy (n=1/3) --> Hy- = 6.61 eV (ditto) > >> Hy (n=1/4) --> Hy- = 11.23 eV etc. > >> Hy (n=1/5) --> Hy- = 16.7 eV etc. > > > >Robin, I don't see how what you said differs from what I said. Therefore, we must be > >in agreement. > > AFAIK the second electron has only one energy level available (for each > value of n), not a collection of energy levels. I.e. you can see it as a > quantum level if you wish, but only the ground state exists before > ionisation takes place. > > Note: I could very well have the bull by the tale here. You have reached the > limit of my understanding of Mills' theory, so I suggest you go directly to > the source for a better understanding. Yes, I took your advice and read his web paper, "Novel Inorganic Hydride". Unfortunately, this has raised even more questions. He claims that he has made a compound which he suggests has several possible structures. One is "—K+ — H- — K+ — HCO3- —" This sequence is proposed to be a polymer. Unfortunately, he has completely ignored normal chemistry. The sequence shows both K and HCO3 having a valence of 2, which is impossible. Even if I grant the unique interaction of Hy-, the other ions can not be expected to violate their basic chemical behavior. I suggest Mills needs a chemist. Also, I'm impressed by all of the "physics-based" techniques he has used to define the properties of the new material, yet not one conventional chemical method is used. The nature of a chemical compound is based on very well understood methods which have been applied long before such techniques as NMR and XPS were known. While these techniques are powerful, they do not answer basic chemical questions. If he wants to know if he has a unique compound, he needs to use analytical chemistry to determine the atoms present and X-ray diffraction to determine its structure. Without this basic information, he has nothing but evidence for a few abnormal energy levels. Mills has turned physics on it head. Now he wants to do the same to chemistry. Where will this end? Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 09:02:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27988; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:59:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:59:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000327165827.73742.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.91] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:58:27 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"u5I_z2.0.Br6.UDvtu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You folks have your thinking caps on backwards. This is about propulsion, not energy generation. Relative density displacement by electrostatic charge will propel a space craft by the force of gravity. But to get the electricity to make that charge one must tap into the force of gravity, tap into Tesla's "wheelwork of Nature". That is the dual radial arm pattern seen in the spiral galaxy, the hurricane, and the whirlpool. You can see this pattern in the whirlpool on my new splash page. And like Mandeville says, it's the wobble, man! This is frame dragging on the third note of the Cosmic Chord, the Third Wave, the Phoenix Wave. David Dennard The Phoenix http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: "Fred Epps" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: >Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:28:04 -0800 > >Hi Robert and Robin, > > > > >ways the magnetic dual is easier to analyze. Lay a number > > >of long length solenoids in a parallel sheet. Doubly connect > > >the system by wrapping the sheet into a cylindrical shell. > > > > > >The same type of effect happens. The B field in the center of > > >the shell is much larger than the available magnetomotive force > > >which would be required to produce the B field, if B = (u)H. > > >It may be somewhat easier to see this in the magnetic system, > > >than in the doubly connected electric system. Look at the > > >superposition of the magnetic vector potential within the shell > > >produced by each of the solenoidal coils. > > > You have just described a large part of Paul Brown's isotopic reactor , > > patent nr. US4835433 (This apparently has "problems" on the IBM patent > > server). This patent is similar to the previous work of Alfred Hubbard. > >Yes, this same pattern is seen in the Cater and Perrigo devices, as well as >a French patent FR739458 from 1932, >"Perpetual Autogenerator Of Electric Energy", which can be seen at >http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=FR739458&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD >for those who are interested. >It makes you wonder if OU could be as simple as a certain electromagnetic >topology...naah :-) > >Regards, >Fred > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 10:33:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01320; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:32:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:32:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327133053.0079ae70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:30:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? In-Reply-To: <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A ix.netcom.com> References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0 ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv 4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0 ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb 4ax.com> <38DCEF67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WTu7x3.0.XK.gawtu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Even if I grant the unique interaction of Hy-, the other ions can >not be expected to violate their basic chemical behavior. I suggest Mills >needs a chemist. Or peer-review. >Also, I'm impressed by all of the "physics-based" techniques he has used to define the >properties of the new material, yet not one conventional chemical method is used. The >nature of a chemical compound is based on very well understood methods which have been >applied long before such techniques as NMR and XPS were known. In with the new, out with the old! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 12:27:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03069; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:19:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:19:06 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <006301bf94f2$180f0fe0$a0441d26 fjsparber> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:14:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Resent-Message-ID: <"O49h4.0.ml.h8ytu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I finally got around to checking out the Bill Beaty website where the "gravity warp capacitor" is described. (See http://www.amasci.com/caps/capwarp.html.) What we have is a capacitor consisting of 390 flat circular plates cut from tinfoil, each with a hole in the center shaped like a nine-legged starfish. The plates are separated by sheets of a dielectric such as wax paper, and aligned and stacked to form a cylinder. The odd numbered plates have leads going out one side, and the even numbered plates have leads going out the opposide side. All the leads on a given side are connected together, with one set being connected to the positive side of a Vandegraaff generator, and the other being connected to the negative side. My reaction: as described, this cannot produce thrust, and sounds like someone jumped the gun and sent out his April Fool's hoax a few days early. Here are a couple of objections to the idea: (1) Even small Vandegraaff generators produce charges of several hundred thousand volts. Such a charge would exceed the breakdown voltage of wax paper or any other dielectric of similar thickness, causing arcs that would destroy such a capacitor. Thus enough information is contained in the claimed replication to conclude that it is a hoax. (2) Common sense also says this wouldn't work, even if the charge across the plates were less than the breakdown voltage of the dielectric. The reason: it is claimed that this capacitor produces a thrust toward the positive end. But the positive end is merely the end which is covered with a positive plate. Since we have an even number of plates, alternating from positive to negative, that means we can reverse the thrust by merely moving the plate on the end that started out as positive, to the other end of the cylinder. In other words, by moving one plate out of 390, we supposedly totally reverse the direction of the thrust, despite the fact that 389/390ths of the device remains exactly the same as before! Clearly, the voltage applied across the plates *must* be less than the breakdown voltage of the dielectric between the plates, and if we suppose that this is an *engine*, then some sort of asymmetry must be introduced, so that the electrical environment within the starfish-shaped cavity might plausibly be supposed to produce thrust. The reason: thrust is produced by the movement of masses. A boat moves forward because the propeller moves water backwards. A chemical rocket moves forward because its nozzle is configured to hurl the mass of the expended fuel backwards. Etc. Such directional movement of masses requires (a) the presence of some mass that can be moved, and (b) significant asymmetries in the devices that produce the thrust. Even if we suppose that the aether is being pushed one way so that the capacitor moves the other way, no significant asymmetries exist in this design which might plausibly be supposed to produced thrust. If this device works, therefore, it must function as some sort of "sail"--i.e., as a contrivance which enables a vehicle to which it is attached to move with the flow of a surrounding medium. The only plausible candidate for such a medium would be the gravon flux: the enormously intense background of "ultramundane corpuscles" (LeSage), which fly through the universe in all directions, at hundreds of millions of times the speed of light, producing gravity by pushing nearby objects toward one another. In that case, however, the device would have to somehow absorb more of the "ultramundane corpuscles" which strike it from one direction than it absorbs from the opposite direction. The normal way that happens is due to the presence of a blocking mass, which absorbs corpuscles from one direction, thereby causing the shielded object to be pushed toward the blocking object (which we call "gravity"). However, in this case there is no blocking mass, and so something about this gadget would have to cause a larger number of the corpuscles to strike the negative end than the positive end. But how? The only difference between the two ends, as noted above, is that one is covered by a positive plate and the other by a negative plate. Thus gravity would have to push *much* more strongly on negatively charged masses than on positively charged ones-which we know for a fact to be false. Bottom line: it looks like the April Fool jokes are getting started early this year. --Mitchell Jones __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 17:54:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15371; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:53:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:53:05 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:52:56 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? In-Reply-To: <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA15324 Resent-Message-ID: <"I977d2.0.2m3.021uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello All. I have been following this thread with some interest, through the 262 backed up messages on my computer. I have yet to see any mathematics at all used to describe these Hydrinos and their compounds. Does Schrodinger's equation describe them? If not, has Mills come up with a new set of mathematics to describe reality that contains Schrodinger's wave equation as limiting or special case? Something like Newton's equations come out of Special Relativity in the limit of slow velocities. Or classical mechanics coming out of quantum mechanics as you move to large scales? Hank On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:44:02 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > [snip] > > >> >another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of > > >> >potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. > > >> > > >> Not quite. There is only one energy level for the second electron, for each > > >> sized hydrino (AFAIK or understand). As follows: > > >> > > >> Hy (n=1/2) --> Hy- = 3.05 eV (energy released by binding second electron). > > >> Hy (n=1/3) --> Hy- = 6.61 eV (ditto) > > >> Hy (n=1/4) --> Hy- = 11.23 eV etc. > > >> Hy (n=1/5) --> Hy- = 16.7 eV etc. > > > > > >Robin, I don't see how what you said differs from what I said. Therefore, we must be > > >in agreement. > > > > AFAIK the second electron has only one energy level available (for each > > value of n), not a collection of energy levels. I.e. you can see it as a > > quantum level if you wish, but only the ground state exists before > > ionisation takes place. > > > > Note: I could very well have the bull by the tale here. You have reached the > > limit of my understanding of Mills' theory, so I suggest you go directly to > > the source for a better understanding. > > Yes, I took your advice and read his web paper, "Novel Inorganic Hydride". > Unfortunately, this has raised even more questions. He claims that he has made a > compound which he suggests has several possible structures. One is "—K+ — H- — K+ — > HCO3- —" This sequence is proposed to be a polymer. Unfortunately, he has completely > ignored normal chemistry. The sequence shows both K and HCO3 having a valence of 2, > which is impossible. Even if I grant the unique interaction of Hy-, the other ions can > not be expected to violate their basic chemical behavior. I suggest Mills needs a > chemist. > > Also, I'm impressed by all of the "physics-based" techniques he has used to define the > properties of the new material, yet not one conventional chemical method is used. The > nature of a chemical compound is based on very well understood methods which have been > applied long before such techniques as NMR and XPS were known. While these techniques > are powerful, they do not answer basic chemical questions. If he wants to know if he has > a unique compound, he needs to use analytical chemistry to determine the atoms present > and X-ray diffraction to determine its structure. Without this basic information, he has > nothing but evidence for a few abnormal energy levels. > > Mills has turned physics on it head. Now he wants to do the same to chemistry. Where > will this end? > > Ed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 18:58:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05540; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:54:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:54:13 -0800 Message-ID: <38E01E03.7CBD skylink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:50:43 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7mVme.0.TM1.Kx1uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: > > You have just described a large part of Paul Brown's isotopic reactor , > > patent nr. US4835433 (This apparently has "problems" on the IBM patent > > server). This patent is similar to the previous work of Alfred Hubbard. > > Yes, this same pattern is seen in the Cater and Perrigo devices, as well as > a French patent FR739458 from 1932, > "Perpetual Autogenerator Of Electric Energy", which can be seen at > http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=FR739458&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD > for those who are interested. Fred. It is remarkable how much old stuff you have stashed away, and you actually seem to be able to find it. Interesting that Brown's patent and the French patent have this same kind of geometry. Similar to the magnetic dual of the gravity- warp capacitor -- except with the addition of another winding in the center cavity. Robin asked about time dilation. I don't know, but the same question occurred to me when looking at the Brown patent. Incidentally, the poltergeists may have removed Brown's patent from the IBM server, but you can still find it on the European server. (URL as above). It is hard to believe Brown could get this kind of power out. Something like 8 Kw. It seems that the normal nuclear decay process may be somehow accelerated in time. There was another invention, I think related to this idea. Maybe by Barker? What is the nature of the Cater and Perrigo devices? > It makes you wonder if OU could be as simple as a certain electromagnetic > topology...naah :-) Naah. Could be an April Fools joke. Lots of people seem to have been fooled by this same joke -- even going back as far as the 1930s. Synchronicity is a funky thing. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 19:16:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19420; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:08:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:08:10 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:07:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1q70essb9qm5n5alhf1ipnfb46hcbaaroj 4ax.com> References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF 67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D@ix.netcom.com> <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id TAA19363 Resent-Message-ID: <"80YPj1.0.Il4.N82uu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:48:26 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >Yes, I took your advice and read his web paper, "Novel Inorganic Hydride". >Unfortunately, this has raised even more questions. He claims that he has made a >compound which he suggests has several possible structures. One is "—K+ — H- — K+ — >HCO3- —" This sequence is proposed to be a polymer. Unfortunately, he has completely >ignored normal chemistry. The sequence shows both K and HCO3 having a valence of 2, >which is impossible. Even if I grant the unique interaction of Hy-, the other ions can >not be expected to violate their basic chemical behavior. I suggest Mills needs a >chemist. To me, the sequence in question looks like a partial "row" of a solid salt as in K-Cl-K-Cl-K-Cl etc., where the Cl's have been replaced with Hy- and HCO3- . (Note Mills appear to use the symbol H for both normal hydrogen, and Hy, which I find confusing). > >Also, I'm impressed by all of the "physics-based" techniques he has used to define the >properties of the new material, yet not one conventional chemical method is used. The >nature of a chemical compound is based on very well understood methods which have been >applied long before such techniques as NMR and XPS were known. While these techniques >are powerful, they do not answer basic chemical questions. If he wants to know if he has >a unique compound, he needs to use analytical chemistry to determine the atoms present >and X-ray diffraction to determine its structure. Without this basic information, he has >nothing but evidence for a few abnormal energy levels. If my conjecture above about the salt structure is correct, then he may be creating salts with such a high binding energy that they will not dissolve in water, and in fact may not dissolve in anything. This could make normal chemical analysis rather difficult. (Redox reactions perhaps?). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 19:16:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12949; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:13:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:13:19 -0800 Message-ID: <38E023F2.42F150E ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:16:05 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"POslG1.0.9A3.FD2uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes Hank, Mills has some new math. Go to www.blacklightpower.com for all the details. Ed hank scudder wrote: > Hello All. > I have been following this thread with some interest, through the 262 > backed up messages on my computer. I have yet to see any mathematics at > all used to describe these Hydrinos and their compounds. Does > Schrodinger's equation describe them? If not, has Mills come up with a new > set of mathematics to describe reality that contains Schrodinger's wave > equation as limiting or special case? Something like Newton's equations > come out of Special Relativity in the limit of slow velocities. Or > classical mechanics coming out of quantum mechanics as you move to large > scales? > > Hank > > On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > > > > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:44:02 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > [snip] > > > >> >another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of > > > >> >potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. > > > >> > > > >> Not quite. There is only one energy level for the second electron, for each > > > >> sized hydrino (AFAIK or understand). As follows: > > > >> > > > >> Hy (n=1/2) --> Hy- = 3.05 eV (energy released by binding second electron). > > > >> Hy (n=1/3) --> Hy- = 6.61 eV (ditto) > > > >> Hy (n=1/4) --> Hy- = 11.23 eV etc. > > > >> Hy (n=1/5) --> Hy- = 16.7 eV etc. > > > > > > > >Robin, I don't see how what you said differs from what I said. Therefore, we must be > > > >in agreement. > > > > > > AFAIK the second electron has only one energy level available (for each > > > value of n), not a collection of energy levels. I.e. you can see it as a > > > quantum level if you wish, but only the ground state exists before > > > ionisation takes place. > > > > > > Note: I could very well have the bull by the tale here. You have reached the > > > limit of my understanding of Mills' theory, so I suggest you go directly to > > > the source for a better understanding. > > > > Yes, I took your advice and read his web paper, "Novel Inorganic Hydride". > > Unfortunately, this has raised even more questions. He claims that he has made a > > compound which he suggests has several possible structures. One is "—K+ — H- — K+ — > > HCO3- —" This sequence is proposed to be a polymer. Unfortunately, he has completely > > ignored normal chemistry. The sequence shows both K and HCO3 having a valence of 2, > > which is impossible. Even if I grant the unique interaction of Hy-, the other ions can > > not be expected to violate their basic chemical behavior. I suggest Mills needs a > > chemist. > > > > Also, I'm impressed by all of the "physics-based" techniques he has used to define the > > properties of the new material, yet not one conventional chemical method is used. The > > nature of a chemical compound is based on very well understood methods which have been > > applied long before such techniques as NMR and XPS were known. While these techniques > > are powerful, they do not answer basic chemical questions. If he wants to know if he has > > a unique compound, he needs to use analytical chemistry to determine the atoms present > > and X-ray diffraction to determine its structure. Without this basic information, he has > > nothing but evidence for a few abnormal energy levels. > > > > Mills has turned physics on it head. Now he wants to do the same to chemistry. Where > > will this end? > > > > Ed > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 19:44:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25514; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:40:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:40:17 -0800 Message-ID: <38E02A49.60DEBAD1 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:43:09 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF 67.8198157 ix.netcom.com> <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D@ix.netcom.com> <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A@ix.netcom.com> <1q70essb9qm5n5alhf1ipnfb46hcbaaroj@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"L_Eo2.0.aE6.Vc2uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:48:26 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > [snip] > >Yes, I took your advice and read his web paper, "Novel Inorganic Hydride". > >Unfortunately, this has raised even more questions. He claims that he has made a > >compound which he suggests has several possible structures. One is "—K+ — H- — K+ — > >HCO3- —" This sequence is proposed to be a polymer. Unfortunately, he has completely > >ignored normal chemistry. The sequence shows both K and HCO3 having a valence of 2, > >which is impossible. Even if I grant the unique interaction of Hy-, the other ions can > >not be expected to violate their basic chemical behavior. I suggest Mills needs a > >chemist. > > To me, the sequence in question looks like a partial "row" of a solid salt > as in K-Cl-K-Cl-K-Cl etc., where the Cl's have been replaced with Hy- and > HCO3- . (Note Mills appear to use the symbol H for both normal hydrogen, and > Hy, which I find confusing). Yes, that might be true. However, he claims the sequence represents a polymer. He has said nothing about the crystal structure. Consequently, such a sequence must be pure speculation on his part. In any case, this is an odd way to show the bonding sequence, i.e. from a chemist's viewpoint. > > > > > >Also, I'm impressed by all of the "physics-based" techniques he has used to define the > >properties of the new material, yet not one conventional chemical method is used. The > >nature of a chemical compound is based on very well understood methods which have been > >applied long before such techniques as NMR and XPS were known. While these techniques > >are powerful, they do not answer basic chemical questions. If he wants to know if he has > >a unique compound, he needs to use analytical chemistry to determine the atoms present > >and X-ray diffraction to determine its structure. Without this basic information, he has > >nothing but evidence for a few abnormal energy levels. > > If my conjecture above about the salt structure is correct, then he may be > creating salts with such a high binding energy that they will not dissolve > in water, and in fact may not dissolve in anything. This could make normal > chemical analysis rather difficult. (Redox reactions perhaps?). He claims the salts dissolve in water and are stable. He has also titrated the bicarbonate salt with HNO3 to release CO2. So this much of the expected chemistry is intact. I presume he is preparing many different compounds but has not yet released the details. This might get very interesting if he will describe some "real" chemistry using the material. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 20:03:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA02077; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:59:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:59:02 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:30:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38E01E03.7CBD@skylink.net> In-Reply-To: <38E01E03.7CBD skylink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA01975 Resent-Message-ID: <"amz4N3.0.KW.5u2uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:50:43 -0800, Robert Stirniman wrote: [snip] >Robin asked about time dilation. I don't know, but the same >question occurred to me when looking at the Brown patent. If Einstein's GR theory is correct, then shouldn't gravity modification and time dilation be opposite sides of the same coin? Suppose that the electrical and magnetic field structures we are looking at here do indeed modify the properties of space itself. Such structures also occur in atomic nuclei, so one might expect time dilation (or gravity modification) to occur there as well. Perhaps the nuclear force really is just modified gravity? (In a nucleus, rotating baryons generate a magnetic field, and can be wrapped in "circles", just as Robert describes.). Perhaps you could do the calcs that would provide an order of magnitude estimate of the magnitude of the effect? All of this reminds me also of the work of Dr. Santilli, who also bases his theory on alterations of basic physical constants at the particle level. [snip] PS - I still think replacing the capacitor in the Brown's patent with an "electric rocket" is a natural progression :-)}}}. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 20:03:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA03112; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:02:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:02:10 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:11:15 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--=_jm80es45dqk07fh235pvbtab64dlru5jlk.MFSBCHJLHS" Resent-Message-ID: <"bALIZ1.0.Wm.1x2uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----=_jm80es45dqk07fh235pvbtab64dlru5jlk.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:52:56 -0800 (PST), hank scudder wrote: >Hello All. >I have been following this thread with some interest, through the 262 >backed up messages on my computer. I have yet to see any mathematics at >all used to describe these Hydrinos and their compounds. Does >Schrodinger's equation describe them? If not, has Mills come up with a = new >set of mathematics to describe reality that contains Schrodinger's wave >equation as limiting or special case?=20 See theory section of Mills' web site: http://www.blacklightpower.com/ . >Something like Newton's equations >come out of Special Relativity in the limit of slow velocities. Or >classical mechanics coming out of quantum mechanics as you move to large >scales?=20 [snip] See attached message from Hydrino list. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk ----=_jm80es45dqk07fh235pvbtab64dlru5jlk.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Status: U Return-Path: Received: from m12.bigpond.net.au ([24.192.1.25]) by m15.bigpond.net.au (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6B3B for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:24:51 +1000 X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: hydrino-return-28-rvanspaa=bigpond.net.au returns.egroups.com X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by m12.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA13720 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:24:49 +1000 (EST) X-eGroups-Return: hydrino-return-28-rvanspaa=bigpond.net.au returns.egroups.com Received: from [10.1.2.20] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2000 13:24:48 -0000 Received: (listserv 315); by q6; 27 Mar 2000 13:24:47 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-hydrino eGroups.com Received: (qmail 26285 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2000 13:06:53 -0000 Received: from fg.egroups.com (10.1.2.134) by iqh.egroups.com with SMTP; 27 Mar 2000 13:06:53 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: luthersetzer yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.124] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2000 13:06:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:06:43 -0800 From: "Luther Setzer" To: hydrino eGroups.com Message-ID: <8bnmd3$4v98 eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <44.2326169.26098b64 aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster Mailing-List: contact hydrino-owner egroups.com X-Mailing-List: hydrino egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: X-eGroups-Approved-By: luthersetzer yahoo.com via email Reply-To: hydrino eGroups.com Subject: HSG: DMC's Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dmc7496- aol.com wrote: > I don't understand what the problem is with Schrodingers boundary condition. > The boundary condition that Schrodinger used was the assumption that the > particle is bound or confined to a finite region of space. Mathematically > this is expressed as: > > u(x) -> 0 as |x| -> infinity > > This makes complete sense, I would like to hear from someone why this is a > problem. I don't think it is a "problem" per se. It's a valid assumption. However, let me quote Ray Conley from his Amazon review of Mills' book: "The work is based on one new, yet fundamental insight--when Schrodinger developed the wave equation for the electron he made a broad assumption for the fourth boundary condition required to solve the problem. Randell Mills replaced this broad assumption with an exact boundary condition derived from Maxwell's Equations. As a result, the Mills solution is far more exact than the traditional quantum model. This new model enabled Mills to develop profound insights into the fundamental structure of matter, and ultimately enabled him to apply Einstein's field equations to the structure of the electron and derive its gravitational mass." In other words, the Mills boundary condition still allows for the electric field to approach zero as the distance from the particle approaches infinity. However, the Mills "classical" boundary condition and its derivatives tell us more about the particle than the Schrodinger boundary condition does. And it does not mandate a break with classical physics. Luke Setzer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hydrino Study Group (HSG): A serious look at the novel theory of Dr. Randell Mills. http://members.tripod.com/AttitudeAdjustment/Books/GUTCQM.htm Post Message hydrino eGroups.com Subscribe hydrino-subscribe eGroups.com Unsubscribe hydrino-unsubscribe eGroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying Backup Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files. Install today: http://click.egroups.com/1/2344/4/_/749282/_/954163487/ -- Talk to your group with your own voice! -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=hydrino&m=1 ----=_jm80es45dqk07fh235pvbtab64dlru5jlk.MFSBCHJLHS-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 20:34:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA05952; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:32:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:32:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327232544.007d4780 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:25:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? In-Reply-To: <38E023F2.42F150E ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA05850 Resent-Message-ID: <"OktxF3.0.uS1.mN3uu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:16 PM 3/27/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Yes Hank, Mills has some new math. Go to www.blacklightpower.com for all the details. >Ed Sorry, Ed. That is not true. Try actually reading his material; it is not "new math". Also you better read up on any conventional text on the waveguide equation (ie. re: boundary conditions) such as Ramo, Whinery and van Duzer, or Fano, Chu and Adler. (BTW, I was fortunate to have studied with Chu, had to have had an office down the hall from Adler). Mills may be incorrect about applying this to the atom, especially using his orbitspheres, but it is not "new math". Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz > >hank scudder wrote: > >> Hello All. >> I have been following this thread with some interest, through the 262 >> backed up messages on my computer. I have yet to see any mathematics at >> all used to describe these Hydrinos and their compounds. Does >> Schrodinger's equation describe them? If not, has Mills come up with a new >> set of mathematics to describe reality that contains Schrodinger's wave >> equation as limiting or special case? Something like Newton's equations >> come out of Special Relativity in the limit of slow velocities. Or >> classical mechanics coming out of quantum mechanics as you move to large >> scales? >> >> Hank >> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> > >> > > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:44:02 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >> > > [snip] >> > > >> >another electron joins the atom to make an ion. At this point, a collection of >> > > >> >potential energy levels exist which the incoming electron can occupy. >> > > >> >> > > >> Not quite. There is only one energy level for the second electron, for each >> > > >> sized hydrino (AFAIK or understand). As follows: >> > > >> >> > > >> Hy (n=1/2) --> Hy- = 3.05 eV (energy released by binding second electron). >> > > >> Hy (n=1/3) --> Hy- = 6.61 eV (ditto) >> > > >> Hy (n=1/4) --> Hy- = 11.23 eV etc. >> > > >> Hy (n=1/5) --> Hy- = 16.7 eV etc. >> > > > >> > > >Robin, I don't see how what you said differs from what I said. Therefore, we must be >> > > >in agreement. >> > > >> > > AFAIK the second electron has only one energy level available (for each >> > > value of n), not a collection of energy levels. I.e. you can see it as a >> > > quantum level if you wish, but only the ground state exists before >> > > ionisation takes place. >> > > >> > > Note: I could very well have the bull by the tale here. You have reached the >> > > limit of my understanding of Mills' theory, so I suggest you go directly to >> > > the source for a better understanding. >> > >> > Yes, I took your advice and read his web paper, "Novel Inorganic Hydride". >> > Unfortunately, this has raised even more questions. He claims that he has made a >> > compound which he suggests has several possible structures. One is "—K+ — H- — K+ — >> > HCO3- —" This sequence is proposed to be a polymer. Unfortunately, he has completely >> > ignored normal chemistry. The sequence shows both K and HCO3 having a valence of 2, >> > which is impossible. Even if I grant the unique interaction of Hy-, the other ions can >> > not be expected to violate their basic chemical behavior. I suggest Mills needs a >> > chemist. >> > >> > Also, I'm impressed by all of the "physics-based" techniques he has used to define the >> > properties of the new material, yet not one conventional chemical method is used. The >> > nature of a chemical compound is based on very well understood methods which have been >> > applied long before such techniques as NMR and XPS were known. While these techniques >> > are powerful, they do not answer basic chemical questions. If he wants to know if he has >> > a unique compound, he needs to use analytical chemistry to determine the atoms present >> > and X-ray diffraction to determine its structure. Without this basic information, he has >> > nothing but evidence for a few abnormal energy levels. >> > >> > Mills has turned physics on it head. Now he wants to do the same to chemistry. Where >> > will this end? >> > >> > Ed >> > >> > >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 21:09:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30800; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:07:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:07:57 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wet Chemical Generation of Hydrino Hydride? Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:07:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38DBD244.7F817BB0@ix.netcom.com> <5qqnds81i3l49iatq2ktrajctfm4npfqjv@4ax.com> <38DC131B.4FC760F0@ix.netcom.com> <898odsssoqni0v45u11sgtu16g3ftag9kb@4ax.com> <38DCEF67.8198157@ix.netcom.com> <38DE3E48.5A0C3E1D@ix.netcom.com> <38DF90D0.51CEBF0A@ix.netcom.com> <1q70essb9qm5n5alhf1ipnfb46hcbaaroj@4ax.com> <38E02A49.60DEBAD1@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <38E02A49.60DEBAD1 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA30763 Resent-Message-ID: <"VVhA22.0.9X7.iu3uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:43:09 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] >> To me, the sequence in question looks like a partial "row" of a solid salt >> as in K-Cl-K-Cl-K-Cl etc., where the Cl's have been replaced with Hy- and >> HCO3- . (Note Mills appear to use the symbol H for both normal hydrogen, and >> Hy, which I find confusing). > >Yes, that might be true. However, he claims the sequence represents a polymer. Maybe he is looking at a salt, and doesn't realise it? (One "row" would look a bit like a chain molecule). >He has said >nothing about the crystal structure. Consequently, such a sequence must be pure speculation >on his part. Or the sequence is correct, but he hasn't yet determined that it is actually part of a crystal structure? (Perhaps because he keep blasting it to bits, to find out what it is)? >In any case, this is an odd way to show the bonding sequence, i.e. from a >chemist's viewpoint. Well he is grappling with something new. [snip] >He claims the salts dissolve in water and are stable. He has also titrated the bicarbonate >salt with HNO3 to release CO2. So this much of the expected chemistry is intact. Yes, but notice that the overall structure seems to remain, with HCO3- being replaced by NO3- in its entirety. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 27 22:23:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA25091; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:20:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:20:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:18:17 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <38E01E03.7CBD skylink.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ADxnd2.0.t76.3z4uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi. Yes, you're referring to barkers patents US5076971 and US4961880 which used a high voltage DC supply to change the decay rate of radioactive material. The claim was that a sharp e field gradient across the material caused the change. I have no idea if this was ever really confirmed, the fact that (a) its real easy to do and (b) its not being used makes me think it didn't. But I never tested it. Browns patent was quite different in approach, using a resonant system with the claim that the energetic particles would cause a greater density of conduction electrons in the wire coils, adding energy to the oscillation. Brown is doing some interesting stuff with remediation now, using gamma ray lasers to cause accelerated decay of radio-materials. Good solid physics, but imagine the difficulties of making a gamma ray laser capable of megawatt output. I think he's looking to the academic community for help here. He seems to no longer be pursuing the battery described in the patent. By the way, this antigravity capacitor dohickey seems pretty odd to me, I guess I'll start taking the thing more seriously after april 1st. As has been pointed out the construction could never withstand more than a few thousand volts before breakdown, although it is interesting to speculate on the fact that you would have many spark gaps in a circuit with resonant stages coupled together. My guess would be the base resonances would be in the 10-100MHz range based on the scale of the components (thats for each leaf/branch in the loop). There seems to be some question as to where to buy tin, try the local hobby or art supply store. Most better ones stock K&S brand metals, they have tin sheets that would be ok for a couple of stages (expensive for a hugh capacitor). K. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Stirniman [mailto:robert skylink.net] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 9:51 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Fred Epps wrote: > > You have just described a large part of Paul Brown's isotopic reactor , > > patent nr. US4835433 (This apparently has "problems" on the IBM patent > > server). This patent is similar to the previous work of Alfred Hubbard. > > Yes, this same pattern is seen in the Cater and Perrigo devices, as well as > a French patent FR739458 from 1932, > "Perpetual Autogenerator Of Electric Energy", which can be seen at > http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=FR739458&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD > for those who are interested. Fred. It is remarkable how much old stuff you have stashed away, and you actually seem to be able to find it. Interesting that Brown's patent and the French patent have this same kind of geometry. Similar to the magnetic dual of the gravity- warp capacitor -- except with the addition of another winding in the center cavity. Robin asked about time dilation. I don't know, but the same question occurred to me when looking at the Brown patent. Incidentally, the poltergeists may have removed Brown's patent from the IBM server, but you can still find it on the European server. (URL as above). It is hard to believe Brown could get this kind of power out. Something like 8 Kw. It seems that the normal nuclear decay process may be somehow accelerated in time. There was another invention, I think related to this idea. Maybe by Barker? What is the nature of the Cater and Perrigo devices? > It makes you wonder if OU could be as simple as a certain electromagnetic > topology...naah :-) Naah. Could be an April Fools joke. Lots of people seem to have been fooled by this same joke -- even going back as far as the 1930s. Synchronicity is a funky thing. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 00:05:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25362; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:04:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:04:59 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:17:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20000328081701187.AAA315 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"k85TA.0.8C6.eU6uu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Ahoy there! I think tin foils are sometimes used as gasket material on high pressure apps like engine heads. You might find some in a marine outlet, or call around to some the machine shop/motor rebuild guys to see. I seem to remember that the old low block Jimmy diesels had tin mash gaskets instead of silicone. They were like a pile of tin sheets or foils with the appropriate block openings stamped into them. Someone might carry something similar without the holes stamped into them as shim stock. It probably wouldn't be of very high purity, but you never know. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 08:40:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11116; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:38:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:38:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000328081701187.AAA315 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:34:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Resent-Message-ID: <"td3oM.0.cj2.F0Euu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Ahoy there! > >I think tin foils are sometimes used as gasket material on high pressure >apps like engine heads. You might find some in a marine outlet, or call >around to some the machine shop/motor rebuild guys to see. I seem to >remember that the old low block Jimmy diesels had tin mash gaskets instead >of silicone. They were like a pile of tin sheets or foils with the >appropriate block openings stamped into them. Someone might carry something >similar without the holes stamped into them as shim stock. It probably >wouldn't be of very high purity, but you never know. ***{I'm not sure why the fixation on using tin foil, which is hard to obtain nowadays. Why not aluminum? (If you insist on tin foil, check out http://www.reax.com/docs/foil_metal.html.) In any case, once you have the foil you need, I should think the construction of this gadget ought to be pretty easy: you simply use scissors to cut 400 square sheets of foil, clamp them tightly between two thin sheets of plywood, draw the pattern you want on the plywood, and use a scroll saw, jigsaw, etc., to cut out the pattern. When you cut through both pieces of plywood, you will also cut through the 400 sheets of foil that are clamped between them. The rest is easy, analogous to putting together a Dagwood sandwich. You insert alternating dielectric sheets, cut a top and bottom board, drill holes, insert bolts, clamp the whole thing together, and hook it up. Not much to it, really. (Again, real wax paper is hard to obtain nowadays. I would use sheet plastic for the dielectric.) In any case, Bill Beaty seemed sufficiently excited by this idea in his original post that he ought to have one almost done by now. By the way: the problem with using a Vandegraaff generator would only apply if the breakdown voltage of the dielectric were exceeded. Since a Vandegraaf uses a belt drive to transport static charges, one could simply measure the breakdown voltage of the dielectric using a sample, and then turn off the belt before your capacitor charged to that level. (Maybe that's what the guy who claimed to have replicated this actually did. Perhaps he merely left some detail out of his description. In that case, the only objection to this idea would be the lack of asymmetry in the design. That, however, still ought to be sufficient to ensure that it won't work. Nevertheless, I await Bill Beaty's followup with considerable interest.) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Knuke > > > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 08:50:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15877; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:48:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:48:57 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:45:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200003281645.LAA20890 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! & Paul Brown's battery Resent-Message-ID: <"1O9bm1.0._t3.u9Euu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Before we are disabused of all our fun by the arrival of April 1, we can speculate to our heart's content: Robert Stirniman described a magnetic analogue to this gravity capacitor, which Robin van Spaandonk then recognized as integral to the design of Paul Brown's nuclear battery. Perhaps Brown has accidentally come across the same device, except in magnetic form. He uses a radioactive source to drive his 'battery', assuming the energy output actually is derived from the radioactives. But, the reported power out from his battery does not seem to reconcile with the strength of the source, if I remember my I.E. articles. Maybe in Brown's case, the radioactives actually just 'prime' his battery, the real source of energy being the same as in our putative gravity capacitor. A magnetic analogue of the grav cap would need a continuous magnetic 'charge', and thus a current flowing in the solenoids. But this is a wasting source, given the resistance in the wires, and must wear down over time. Nevertheless, each radioactive ion which stimulates its surrounding tickler coil may thus induce a much greater upwelling of response in the surrounding battery solenoids, in the same manner that a starter charge supposedly excites the gravity capacitor. If so, Brown's battery could be built without the radioactives and be driven by a low power tickler coil circuit. May be easier to build than the gravity capacitor for testing? Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 08:52:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16689; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:50:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:50:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Lajoie To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! In-Reply-To: <38E01E03.7CBD skylink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LeJsh2.0.d44.OBEuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Not gravity. If this thing really works, probably diamagnetism. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 09:14:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27873; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:12:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:12:08 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <38E01E03.7CBD skylink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:10:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Resent-Message-ID: <"vDWM8.0.Pp6.bVEuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Not gravity. If this thing really works, probably diamagnetism. ***{According to the push theory of gravity (LeSage), tiny "ultramundane corpuscles" are shooting through the universe at hundreds of millions of times the speed of light, in mind-bogglingly vast quantities, in all directions. Because a tiny percentage of them are absorbed by material objects, the Earth has the effect of shielding you from some of them that would otherwise be hitting you from below. Result: those striking you from above are greater in number than those striking you from below, producing in a net force pushing you toward the Earth--i.e., gravity. Thus if the push theory of gravity is correct, and if the "gravity-warp capacitor" absorbs more of the ultramundane corpuscles that strike it from the negative end than from the positive end, the effect will be a force pushing it toward the positive end. --MJ}*** __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 09:16:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26523; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:15:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:15:16 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:29:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Resent-Message-ID: <"sRHjA3.0.LU6.aYEuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:34 AM 3/28/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >By the way: the problem with using a Vandegraaff generator would only apply >if the breakdown voltage of the dielectric were exceeded. Since a >Vandegraaf uses a belt drive to transport static charges, one could simply >measure the breakdown voltage of the dielectric using a sample, and then >turn off the belt before your capacitor charged to that level.[snip] In the old days spark gaps were used as voltage regulators. The fact the waxed paper would perforate at the weakest spots just at the critical voltage might make for a nice built-in voltage regulator. Alternatively, a needle spark gap might be gradually opened in a test circuit until test material perforates, and then closed back slightly to obtain just the right volatage when the gap is used to short the HV terminal to ground. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 09:41:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01595; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:40:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:40:02 -0800 Message-ID: <20000328173927.38402.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [64.6.128.240] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: magnetic healing Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:39:27 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5mlQF3.0.pO.nvEuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Relative field strength and penetration of magnetic fields is not as crucial as one might think to the mechanism of magnetic healing As I understand the theory most use the magnets to alter the body's natural magnetic/bio-electric field. Of course, most "alternative" techniques are packaged with a philosophy containing a "universal" energy flow (chi,kei,prana,etc) which is beyond the ability of science to detect at this time and so neatly shrugs off scientific evidence to the contrary for the believers. I say it doesn't matter how it works, if it makes people feel better, so be it. Adam Cox student of the absurd ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 09:53:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06569; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:51:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:51:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:30:40 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <38E01E03.7CBD skylink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"78bIY2.0.Rc1.B4Fuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robert and all, > > > > Yes, this same pattern is seen in the Cater and Perrigo > devices, as well as > > a French patent FR739458 from 1932, > > "Perpetual Autogenerator Of Electric Energy", which can be seen at > > http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=FR739458&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD > > for those who are interested. > > Fred. It is remarkable how much old stuff you have stashed away, > and you actually seem to be able to find it. Everybody needs a hobby :-) > Interesting that Brown's patent and the French patent have this > same kind of geometry. Similar to the magnetic dual of the gravity- > warp capacitor -- except with the addition of another winding in > the center cavity. The Hubbard also has secondary windings wound with the primaries on the outside cores, so you can look at in terms of simultaneous transformer and motional induction as well. The same principle is seen in rotating form in the well-known Alexander patent: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US03913004__ Method and apparatus for increasing electrical power where the rotor has two windings in the slots, one driven by AC to rotate it through a permanent magnet assembly, and another going to a load, and supplied by both transformer induction from the drive winding and motional induction from the magnets. > Robin asked about time dilation. I don't know, but the same > question occurred to me when looking at the Brown patent. I've suggested before on the lists that time alteration is the primary effect of the electric field in various devices, such as the Leon Sprink materials alteration, Barker radiation remediation, and TT Brown electrogravitic effects. Time rate alteration explains a wider variety of the effects seen in these devices than some simple interaction of electric fields with gravity. You've suggested in your electrogravitics references that Jun Liu's expansion of the A-B effect would lead to time dilation: One interesting prediction of Liu's theory is that electromagnetic potential will result in time dilation. He doesn't appear to be aware that there is already experimental evidence that this occurs. See references to inventions and experiments by people such as Saxl, Barker, and Keller, which demonstrate time dilation in an electric potential. Time dilation can be viewed equivalently as a shift in wavelength. Liu wishes for someone to conduct an experiment to test for a change in wavelength by using a quantum interferometer. I've seen no more papers from him. Has he dropped out of sight? In the paper "A Possible Connection Between The Electric Field And The Flow Of Time" Spec Sci. Tech V. 16, N. 1 P.26, Hickman and Kaplan predict the same effect simply by making time the dependent variable in the one-dimensional wave equation. For me, the most intuitively satisfying way of understanding these things is in the Physical Vacuum theory of Shipov, where the vacuum is full of orientable Planck-length particles which are essentially nested electron-positron pairs with opposite spins. Changes in orientation of these particles account for EM fields, gravity, and torsion fields, which in turn account for a wide variety of anomalous effects. The relevance the present discussion is that charge will orient the particles to form an electric field but this at he same time creates a torsion field. It is this torsion field which I think alters the time rate and appears to show antigravity and OU effects. It is hard to believe Brown could get this kind > of power out. Something like 8 Kw. It seems that the normal nuclear > decay process may be somehow accelerated in time. Yes, I'm not knowledgeable about nuclear stuff but I doubt a normal decay rate would be capable of creating that much power, not to mention the inevitable conversion efficiency of transfer to an inductive winding-- and how does THAT happen?? There was another > invention, I think related to this idea. Maybe by Barker? Yes, there are several others that I don't have handy right now. > > What is the nature of the Cater and Perrigo devices? The Perrigo patent application may be Dled here http://www.nuenergy.org/pdf/perrigo.pdf There doesn't seem to be anything on the net about Cater, but his device is much like Hubbard's, but with the use of numerous soft iron rods making up several primaries and secondaries. > > Naah. Could be an April Fools joke. So many things are these days. > Lots of people seem to have been fooled by this same > joke -- even going back as far as the 1930s. > Synchronicity is a funky thing. Then there is the Meyer-Mace patent which claims OU from HF induction through a soft iron core resulting in isotopic transmutation (patent assigned to the Czech nuclear agency)... and the Roth patent using a winding around a radioactive core to amplify a current... and the Hyun patent using both rotating and transformer induction for OU... and... Regards, Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 10:01:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA09118; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:59:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:59:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000328125841.007a8680 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:58:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC: generating random numbers in 2+ locations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vZmrG2.0.OE2.TCFuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is way off topic, but I have been mulling over a fun question for a while. Some of the most secure, top secret codes used by embassies and places like that depend upon long lists of random numbers. A person I know once generated paper tapes filled with random numbers by comparing variances between a computer real-time clock and cycles on the power mains. The digits were tested for random distribution and then the paper tapes were shipped off in diplomatic bags. I believe this collection of random numbers is called a "codebook." I have been thinking about various novel ways to produce a codebook, to generate a "perfect" "one-time pad," that is, a code which can never broken without stealing the codebook. This is not like a cipher, such as the well-known public key RSA ciphers, which can be broken in principle by an outside third party by factoring huge numbers. Let us designate the third party trying to break your code "the CIA." As a purist, you do not want to use computer language random number generators for this purpose because they are not truly random, and eventually the sequence repeats. Theoretically, the CIA could generate the entire sequence and crack your message. As a practical problem, I think that would be even more difficult than factoring 128-bit RSA keys, but anyway, I would like to find a naturally occurring source of real random numbers. One idea I came up with a long time ago would be to monitor ionization smoke detector voltage, or perhaps use a radiation meter with a smoke detector. (A smoke detector *is* a radiation meter but it might not be sensitive enough.) Smoke detectors contain 0.2 milligrams of americium-241 oxide. The total voltage level is not random: it is a function of the number of particles in the air. However, the *precise* number of disintegrations per second, and the resulting signal strength and fluctuations of the lower digits on your meter are as random as anything can be, as far as I know. Perhaps some aspect of the voltmeter engineering would make this less than perfectly random, but I doubt it. The trouble with using the power mains or a radiation source is that you must generate the codebook in one location, and then physically ship a copy of it to another. Your friend must have the codebook in hand before he can send you a message. That takes time, and someone along the way might intercept the disk and copy it without your knowledge. What we really want is a method of generating the codebook at two locations simultaneously and secretly, in a way that could never be repeated by a third party. Here is an idea that is impractical but fun to think about. You could focus two radiotelescopes on a point source in space that varies randomly in a clearly pronounced binary (on, off) fashion. I'm not sure what phenomenon does this, but there must be some. You and your friend meet and agree that at fixed times you will monitor and record the random process. The reason this works is because there are millions of targets (out of 10^20 stars), so the CIA would never know which particular target you are focused on or when you start monitoring, and once they miss the chance to monitor it, the opportunity is gone forever. I have been trying to think of some random noise source broadcast on radio or Internet that you and your friend could both tune into, such as the last 4 digits of the Dow Jones industrial average, or the temperature readings in Ithaca NY from the weather Channel web page. Unfortunately, anything you can tap the CIA can also monitor. It might work if you find a data source with thousands of choices, such as temperature readings from every weather station on earth, or a network of seismometers. The CIA would not know *which* city temperature you picked, or which seismometer. But unlike deep space noise, the data is recorded so they could go back and pick it up later on. The 3-digit temperature rate of change is far too slow to generate as many numbers as you need, a variation on this approach is to use the temperature readings as random seeds or offsets for a random number generator, but this does not have many advantages over using the usual real-time clock seed. With some random number generators, you can deliberately force a particular sequence from a given seed. A generator produces billions of numbers (or trillions) in a sequence that eventually repeats. Some generators allow you to go to a particular spot in the sequence, starting out a position number 55,122,662, let us say. You tell it to go to a particular spot based on the temperature in Ithaca, and so does your friend, and you get the same sequence. You and your friend force a new seed from Ithaca every 100 numbers, or 1000 numbers, and you come up with exactly the same random sequence very quickly. You could do it any time you like without mailing anything. I have read recently in the Scientific American about exotic particle experiments in which events occur in two locations simultaneously. I do not begin to understand what this stuff is about, but something like it might be helpful. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 10:03:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08560; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:00:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:00:44 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:59:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Resent-Message-ID: <"5DV7F1.0.N52.2DFuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:34 AM 3/28/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>By the way: the problem with using a Vandegraaff generator would only apply >>if the breakdown voltage of the dielectric were exceeded. Since a >>Vandegraaf uses a belt drive to transport static charges, one could simply >>measure the breakdown voltage of the dielectric using a sample, and then >>turn off the belt before your capacitor charged to that level.[snip] > > >In the old days spark gaps were used as voltage regulators. The fact the >waxed paper would perforate at the weakest spots just at the critical >voltage might make for a nice built-in voltage regulator. ***{Except that the first spark will punch a hole in the dielectric. Since the breakdown voltage of air will be less than that of the dielectric, the capacitance will be greatly reduced thereafter. (And if the two adjacent plates weld together, the capacitor will be ruined.)--MJ}*** Alternatively, a >needle spark gap might be gradually opened in a test circuit until test >material perforates, and then closed back slightly to obtain just the right >volatage when the gap is used to short the HV terminal to ground. ***{This is an excellent idea. --MJ}*** > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 11:41:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07120; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:36:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:36:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:36:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Gravity cap CAN'T work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"e9b_Y.0.Al1.MdGuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > My reaction: as described, this cannot > produce thrust, and sounds like someone jumped the gun and sent out his > April Fool's hoax a few days early. This was my reaction to the original paper ca. 1991. It is a HUGE amount of work for something that might be a joke. The original author reportedly died years ago, but dead hoaxers aren't any different than live ones. I did find a source of tin foil (a dental supply house), but I never had the ambition to build the capacitor. Now I have to get my tin back from the guy I loaned it to. > Here are a couple of objections to the idea: > > (1) Even small Vandegraaff generators produce charges of several hundred > thousand volts. The original paper mentions batteries. I estimate the total capacitance to be around 0.2uF (from measurement of a copper-foil capacitor layer glued up on a single layer of waxpaper with rubber cement.) The anonymous "S" says that the thrust appears within one second of turning on the VDG. By V=T*I/C, and if the VDG produces 10uA, the capacitor voltage rises at 50V/Sec, so if the claim is genuine, significant thrust occurs at just above 50V. Or, if his VDG has a high speed and a wide belt, the current might be 100uA, so the thrust would appear at around 500V. "S" is out of town until April 1 (!), so he has not yet tested a conventional power supply to verify whether high voltage is needed to create thrust. Also, he has repeatedly mentioned that he became sick after using the capacitor, and recovered after several weeks of avoiding it, so he's in no great hurry to work with it again. It might be fortunate that he's using a VDG. The voltage would rise to a maximum set by internal leakage in the capacitor. As soon as corona was created on the edges of the foil, and the total leakage current matched the VDG output, the voltage would stop rising. Since the sharp edges of the foil are layed adjacent to each other on either side of the waxpaper layers, the e-field at the edges will be high, even when the total potential between them is fairly low, therefore a glow discharge will ignite at a very low voltage. If humidity is high as well, then perhaps the capacitor voltage never approaches 1KV. > (2) Common sense also says this wouldn't work, even if the charge across > the plates were less than the breakdown voltage of the dielectric. The > reason: it is claimed that this capacitor produces a thrust toward the > positive end. Yep. The device is nearly symmetrical. That's why I didn't build one. The basic idea is crazy. Unless the stacking of those small tin strips was enough to induce asymmetry, or perhaps the waxpaper has more wax on one side, there is no reason for it to "choose one direction" and produce a linear force. And even so, the direction of thrust should then NOT depend upon polarity. The original paper does not stress any need for an even number of plates. Strange. But "S" claims that a flat tin layer works, with no little individual squares of tin needed. If the device is a hoax, we now can verify this with FAR less effort. What we are left with is an anomalous observation. So, should we declare it to be a hoax, on the grounds that it theoretically makes no sense? But think for a moment: CAPACITORS WHICH PRODUCE LARGE CONTINUOUS THRUST MAKE NO SENSE, at least according to mainstream physics. If we declare it to be a hoax for such a reason, how can we complain when orthodox scientists do the same thing for CF or any other "outlaw" science? It violates theory, therefore the evidence must be ignored. The proper course here is NOT to fear hoaxers and make premature judgements. The proper course is to demand evidence. Anonymous reports are a form of weak anecdotal evidence. Photographs won't be much stronger. Only a successful replication will be convincing (yet an UNsuccessful replication doesn't prove the claim to be a hoax, any more than Pons/Fleichman were proved to be hoaxers.) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 11:48:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08980; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:42:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:42:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:42:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! In-Reply-To: <20000328081701187.AAA315 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LR8Eb1.0.EC2.RiGuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > It probably > wouldn't be of very high purity, but you never know. Heh. What if pure tin won't work, and only tin from certain suppliers is "active?" If so, most attempted replications will fail, and any which succeed will be regarded with suspicion. ...And we'll reproduce the history of CF in miniature! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 12:40:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27038; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:37:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:37:21 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:51:56 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: REHyper Light Speed Antenna (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BOUNDARY.138090536.3" Resent-Message-ID: <"I7FS83.0.Oc6._VHuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Warning: This is a message in MIME format. Your mail reader does not support MIME. Some parts of this message will be readable as plain text. To see the rest, you will need to upgrade your mail reader. Following are some URLs where you can find MIME-capable mail programs for common platforms: Amiga............: YAM http://www.yam.ch/ Unix.............: Metamail ftp://ftp.bellcore.com/nsb/ Windows/Macintosh: Eudora http://www.qualcomm.com/ General info about MIME can be found at: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/mail/mime-faq/top.html --BOUNDARY.138090536.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vorts Thought this might be of interest here. Ron *** Forwarded message, originally written by Carl Lennon = Hi Roger &Ron, I just got off the phone with the inventor. He is not formally trained i= n physics or electronics but seems to know what he is talking about in th= e electronic area. His basic experiment was to build 4 units, two transm= itters and two receivers. Using the transmitters and receivers he transm= itted a pulse out and back about a mile. He measured the time delay for = the round trip and claims that the delay was near 0 when using his devic= e. The test frequencies were 950 and 1500 mHz. He cautioned me that you can get sparks or streams of energy from this "o= ther dimension" on occasions. He doesn't know if they will hurt you are = not. They didn't burn the carpet when they fell on it. My first contact= was with a lady who screens his calls and correspondence. She told me a= bout the experience that she had with plants growing. Apparently they ha= d some plants in the house when they were running some of the experiments= =2E She claimed that the plants grew rapidly and had much large stems. = The exposure time was apparently only a few minutes. As far as I could t= ell there were no controlled experiments performed. In talking with the inventor (David) I suggested lots of simplifications = on the construction of the device. Apparently he had tried most of them = and they will work. He is in the process of applying for another paten t= hat incorporates most of the simplifications. It looks like there is not much to building a simplified version of this = device. I have some magnets from a microwave oven that can be used in pl= ace of the electromagnets. The bulb can be a small halogen bulb from an = auto head light (#9005). The bulb has to be operated at almost burn out v= oltage (16 Vdc). He uses a fan to cool the area around the bulb. Appare= ntly it is the temperature of the filament that is important. The accel= erator voltage just need to be above 500 volts. Both polarities are requ= ired. The RF input coupling is apparently electrostatic as he said that = part of the 1/4 wave antenna feed can be outside of the device. (There w= ouldn't be room to wrap a 1/4 wave antenna in the gap between the magnets= for a 27 mHz antenna). The magnets have to be positioned south to south= pole. North to north will not work. = I should be able to put a pair of a simplified version of this device tog= ether in the next 2 days if nothing interrupts. The biggest problem will= be the +/- accelerator supplies. I will keep you posted on progress. = This may be a wild goose chase but it is worth a try. Carl = *** End of forwarded message *** -- = --BOUNDARY.138090536.3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Roger,
I just got off the phone with the invent= or.  = He is not formally trained in physics or electronics but seems to know wh= at he = is talking about in the electronic area.  His basic experiment was t= o build = 4 units, two transmitters and two receivers.  Using the transmitters= and = receivers he transmitted a pulse out and back about a mile.  He meas= ured = the time delay for the round trip and claims that the delay was near 0 wh= en = using his device.  The test frequencies were 950 and 1500 mHz.
 
He cautioned me that you can get sparks = or streams = of energy from this "other dimension" on occasions.  He doesn't know= if = they will hurt you are not.  They= didn't = burn the carpet when they fell on it.  My first contact was with a l= ady who = screens his calls and correspondence.  She told me about the experie= nce = that she had with plants growing.  Apparently they had some plants i= n the = house when they were running some of the experiments.  She claimed t= hat the = plants grew rapidly and had much large stems.  The exposure time was= = apparently only a few minutes.  As far as I could tell there were no= = controlled experiments performed.
 
In talking with the inventor (David) I s= uggested = lots of simplifications on the construction of the device.  Apparent= ly he = had tried most of them and they will work.  He is in the process of = applying for another paten that incorporates most of the = simplifications.
 
It looks like there is not much to build= ing a = simplified version of this device.  I have some magnets from a micro= wave = oven that can be used in place of the electromagnets.  The bulb can = be a = small halogen bulb from an auto head light (#9005). The bulb has to = be = operated at almost burn out voltage (16 Vdc).  He uses a fan to cool= the = area around the bulb.  Apparently it is the temperature of the filam= ent = that is important.  The accelerator voltage just need to be above 5= 00 = volts.  Both polarities are required.  The RF input coupling is= = apparently electrostatic as he said that part of the 1/4 wave antenna fee= d can = be outside of the device.  (There wouldn't be room to wrap a 1/4 wav= e = antenna in the gap between the magnets for a 27 mHz antenna).  The m= agnets = have to be positioned south to south pole.  North to north will not = work. 
 
I should be able to put a pair of a simp= lified = version of this device together in the next 2 days if nothing interrupts.=   = The biggest problem will be the +/- accelerator supplies.  I will ke= ep you = posted on progress. 
 
This may be a wild goose chase but it is= worth a = try.
 
Carl 
 
--BOUNDARY.138090536.3-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 12:44:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09474; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:39:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:39:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:39:34 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gravity cap CAN'T work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iSIVs.0.vJ2.MYHuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, William Beaty wrote: > Now I have to get my tin back from the guy I loaned it to. I did just build a 6-layer capacitor and tried a very crude pendulum test. Nada. But I used copper foil instead of tin, and used rubber cement instead of clamping the thing with boards. I didn't measure the VDG output, but it definitely was way below 1KV with this capacitor connected, so leakage was a major issue, even with so few layers. When I have some tin, the first thing to verify is whether a 2-plate capacitor produces significant thrust. If the thrust is directly proportional to the number of layers, then even a 2-plate capacitor should be able to lift its own weight. If it can, then replicating the basic effect is trivial. However, I would imagine that if this device is real, the 3D structure plays an important role, and one capacitor layer might produce zero thrust rather than 1/400 of the thrust of a 400-capacitor stack. Zero thrust from a 2-plate capacitor won't be suprising, but measurable thrust will be! Folks on FREENRG-L point out that tin has a phase transition just below 20C. Also, tin ingots reportedly "scream" when bent, indicating some sort of link between acoustics and nonlinear changes in crystal structure which other metals might lack. Tin might be magic ingredient here. Two copper foils rubber-cemented and burnished down on a 2-layer waxpaper dielectric gives 1500pf measured on a DVM with capacitance range. That gives 0.6uF if 400 layers are built, but I imagine that the capacitance is maybe 2x or 3x less if the stack is clamped between boards rather than having its air gaps replaced with glue. Separate topic: Someone once told me that he made a capacitor from a big roll of mylar and aluminum foil. He charged it for hours on a VDG machine, but didn't know if it all leaked away, and was afraid to connect a meter to it. So he took it out back and threw it into the pond. There was a huge bang and a tall column of water. He said it killed all the fish and vaporised the metal where it had contacted the water. (What if he had bumped the terminals while carrying it!) If this "grav cap" does work, there is a problem. It will attract attention, and inexperienced people will ignore the warnings, build it, and kill themselves. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 12:53:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12028; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:50:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:50:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:04:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: generating random numbers in 2+ locations Resent-Message-ID: <"YaSe-.0.lx2.IiHuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:58 PM 3/28/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I have been thinking about various novel ways to produce a codebook, to >generate a "perfect" "one-time pad," that is, a code which can never broken >without stealing the codebook. I think a superior method would to drive a very fast flip-flop or counter (cascaded flip-flops) by a high (and either non-uniform or uniform) frequency signal, and then sample the counter at the time an event is sensed on a very fast (low latency time) radiation counter. The counter would have to be driven by a frequency that is high in relation to the event occurance rate. The driving frequency can be over a GHz, so the pad bit generation speed could easily be well over 1 Mbs even with a simple flip-flop used as the counter. By using a counter you can get more random bits per event detected, but the flip-flop driving frequency must be higher. The bits could be pushed into a serial FIFO buffer to cordinate sampling time with "read" time. Buffer overflow due to insufficient sampling speed would have no effect on the randomness of the samples - the only effect woudl be bits thrown away. This could be packaged into a nice small DIP for inclusion on a motherboard or board, and used for real time gaming, simulation, as well as cryptographic applications. The counter could be made of semiconductor material. The events counted could be either particles or gammas. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 13:23:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10451; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:20:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:20:26 -0800 Message-ID: <004b01bf98fc$80a34ef0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Info. from BLP website Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:28:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"dPIb73.0.CZ2.O8Iuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following paragraph was extracted from: http://www.blacklightpower.com/business/develop.html It was under the business section rather than the technical section and so may have escaped notice by some vorts. Using advanced catalysts in its gas power cell, the Company has recently achieved a plasma in hydrogen with no additional power into the cell. ---------------- The measured plasma temperature produced by Company's power cells is approximately 100,000 °C. The Company is focusing on internally developing a power cell which produces electricity. The target market is distributed and microdistributed power. Recently, the Company filed patents covering a solid state device to convert the plasma power directly into electrical power. Based on research and development in this area of converters, the Company expects that routine engineering will result in devices that have conversion efficiencies of greater than 90%. The Company's conversion devices are anticipated to be significantly simpler in design and much less expensive per unit power capacity than any existing power conversion technology. And, unlike turbine technology wherein the cost per unit capacity soars with miniaturization, the Company anticipates that the unit cost per capacity will be insensitive to scale. Furthermore, the Company anticipates that lower capital costs and operating and maintenance costs (O&M) will result in household units that are competitive with central power and significantly superior to competing microdistributed power technology such as fuel cells. Also, pages 32 of http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf contains a sketch of a " Gyrotron Plasma to Microwave to Electricity Power Converter". Although this does not appear to be the "solid state device" mentioned above, I would be interested in any comments about how this device might function. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 13:32:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13305; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:29:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:29:02 -0800 Reply-To: "Sparky" From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: WAY OFF TOPIC: generating random numbers in 2+ locations Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:22:58 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"bmwN-3.0.lF3.SGIuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The problem Jed is trying to address is the old key exchange problem, how do you get key information to the recipient in such a manner as to prevent all others from accessing it. As he points out, the one time pad is unbreakable. The source material does not have to be completely random, I've heard that people use things like pages from the NYTimes etc as source material for encoding. Again if the malignant party has access to this key information the code is broken. Not to be cheeky but if I have a good answer to jed's question I wouldn't be posting it on a listserv, I'd be selling it. Better would be an unbreakable means of exchanging keys, then you'd avoid the problem of generating identical random streams in two seperate locations. Thanx for bringing this up though, its off-topic but interesting stuff. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 4:04 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: generating random numbers in 2+ locations At 12:58 PM 3/28/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I have been thinking about various novel ways to produce a codebook, to >generate a "perfect" "one-time pad," that is, a code which can never broken >without stealing the codebook. I think a superior method would to drive a very fast flip-flop or counter (cascaded flip-flops) by a high (and either non-uniform or uniform) frequency signal, and then sample the counter at the time an event is sensed on a very fast (low latency time) radiation counter. The counter would have to be driven by a frequency that is high in relation to the event occurance rate. The driving frequency can be over a GHz, so the pad bit generation speed could easily be well over 1 Mbs even with a simple flip-flop used as the counter. By using a counter you can get more random bits per event detected, but the flip-flop driving frequency must be higher. The bits could be pushed into a serial FIFO buffer to cordinate sampling time with "read" time. Buffer overflow due to insufficient sampling speed would have no effect on the randomness of the samples - the only effect woudl be bits thrown away. This could be packaged into a nice small DIP for inclusion on a motherboard or board, and used for real time gaming, simulation, as well as cryptographic applications. The counter could be made of semiconductor material. The events counted could be either particles or gammas. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 13:44:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19376; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:42:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:42:12 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <3c.2297078.261280e2 aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:40:50 EST Subject: MJ's waste of bandwidth To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 70 Resent-Message-ID: <"gIL8b1.0.ak4.nSIuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 3/28/00 9:14:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net writes: > Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are > dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, > they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never > denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big > deal?" --Jed Rothwell Why do you keep posting the above quote? Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 14:00:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25177; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:58:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:58:10 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:57:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Gravity cap CAN'T work Resent-Message-ID: <"cEVly2.0.H96.nhIuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: >> My reaction: as described, this cannot >> produce thrust, and sounds like someone jumped the gun and sent out his >> April Fool's hoax a few days early. > >This was my reaction to the original paper ca. 1991. It is a HUGE amount >of work for something that might be a joke. The original author >reportedly died years ago, but dead hoaxers aren't any different than live >ones. I did find a source of tin foil (a dental supply house), but I >never had the ambition to build the capacitor. Now I have to get my tin >back from the guy I loaned it to. > > >> Here are a couple of objections to the idea: >> >> (1) Even small Vandegraaff generators produce charges of several hundred >> thousand volts. > >The original paper mentions batteries. I estimate the total capacitance >to be around 0.2uF (from measurement of a copper-foil capacitor layer >glued up on a single layer of waxpaper with rubber cement.) The anonymous >"S" says that the thrust appears within one second of turning on the VDG. >By V=T*I/C, and if the VDG produces 10uA, the capacitor voltage rises at >50V/Sec, so if the claim is genuine, significant thrust occurs at just >above 50V. Or, if his VDG has a high speed and a wide belt, the current >might be 100uA, so the thrust would appear at around 500V. "S" is out of >town until April 1 (!), so he has not yet tested a conventional power >supply to verify whether high voltage is needed to create thrust. Also, >he has repeatedly mentioned that he became sick after using the capacitor, >and recovered after several weeks of avoiding it, so he's in no great >hurry to work with it again. > > >It might be fortunate that he's using a VDG. The voltage would rise to a >maximum set by internal leakage in the capacitor. As soon as corona was >created on the edges of the foil, and the total leakage current matched >the VDG output, the voltage would stop rising. Since the sharp edges of >the foil are layed adjacent to each other on either side of the waxpaper >layers ***{Was the description clear enough so you can be sure of that? I was assuming that the wax paper (or plastic, or whatever) layers were larger in diameter than the foil layers, and that they did not have the starfish shaped hole cut in the center, but rather a much smaller, circular one. The reason was twofold: (a) such an assumption matches the diagram from the original design, on your website (see your Fig. 1); and (b) it seemed illogical to separate the foil layers with a high-resistance dielectric while leaving an air gap with much lower resistance at the edges. If the device is built to match Fig. 1, then I think you will get an arc through the dielectric layer before you get a corona. --MJ}*** , the e-field at the edges will be high, even when the >total potential between them is fairly low, therefore a glow discharge >will ignite at a very low voltage. If humidity is high as well, then >perhaps the capacitor voltage never approaches 1KV. > > >> (2) Common sense also says this wouldn't work, even if the charge across >> the plates were less than the breakdown voltage of the dielectric. The >> reason: it is claimed that this capacitor produces a thrust toward the >> positive end. > >Yep. The device is nearly symmetrical. That's why I didn't build one. >The basic idea is crazy. Unless the stacking of those small tin strips >was enough to induce asymmetry, or perhaps the waxpaper has more wax on >one side, there is no reason for it to "choose one direction" and produce >a linear force. And even so, the direction of thrust should then NOT >depend upon polarity. The original paper does not stress any need for an >even number of plates. Strange. But "S" claims that a flat tin layer >works, with no little individual squares of tin needed. If the device is >a hoax, we now can verify this with FAR less effort. ***{Indeed. The tin foil on sale at http://www.reax.com/docs/foil_metal.html is available in .102 mm thickness (product number 851), which means 400 layers tightly clamped between two sheets of 3/8th inch plywood would require you to saw through a thickness of a mere .75(25.4) + 400(.102) = 59.85 mm. That is a trivial task for a scroll saw if you use a fine, metal cutting blade, and don't push it. Moreover, even if "S" is lying, the original guy may not have been: there is significant asymmetry in the original design, if we assume the stack order is always wax paper, nine large plates, nine small connecting plates, wax paper, nine large plates, nine small connecting plates, etc. A comparable asymmetry could be introduced into the newer design by simply bending the central prongs of all the plates in the same direction, if necessary. --MJ}*** > >What we are left with is an anomalous observation. So, should we declare >it to be a hoax, on the grounds that it theoretically makes no sense? But >think for a moment: CAPACITORS WHICH PRODUCE LARGE CONTINUOUS THRUST MAKE >NO SENSE, at least according to mainstream physics. If we declare it to >be a hoax for such a reason, how can we complain when orthodox scientists >do the same thing for CF or any other "outlaw" science? It violates >theory, therefore the evidence must be ignored. > >The proper course here is NOT to fear hoaxers and make premature >judgements. The proper course is to demand evidence. ***{I totally agree. --MJ}*** Anonymous reports >are a form of weak anecdotal evidence. Photographs won't be much >stronger. Only a successful replication will be convincing (yet an >UNsuccessful replication doesn't prove the claim to be a hoax, any more >than Pons/Fleichman were proved to be hoaxers.) > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 14:08:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28293; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:06:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:06:11 -0800 Message-ID: <03cb01bf9909$f51654a0$a0441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Hydrinos-Sparberinos in your Microwaved Bacon? Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:02:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"S0ka72.0.Xv6.HpIuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The Fat (Triglycerides) in Bacon undergoes Hydrolysis in the presence of Potassium: Triglyceride + 3 H2O ---> Fatty Acids 3 CH3-(CH2)n-CO-OH + Glycerine (C3H5(OH)3 Ever notice how the Microwaving of Bacon approaches the "China Syndrome"? You might try microwaving a banana, Knuke. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 14:13:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28884; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:11:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:11:17 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:22:15 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: generating random numbers in 2+ locations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"99evE1.0.337.xtIuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How about using stock market prices? Nice random walks. Or 1/f "heat noise" (or stars exploding?) from a Hodowanec type detector. >At 12:58 PM 3/28/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>I have been thinking about various novel ways to produce a codebook, to >>generate a "perfect" "one-time pad," that is, a code which can never broken >>without stealing the codebook. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 14:28:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03399; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:26:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:26:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3c.2297078.261280e2 aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:25:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: MJ's waste of bandwidth Resent-Message-ID: <"TAv5H2.0.bq.g6Juu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In a message dated 3/28/00 9:14:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net >writes: > >> Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are >> dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, >> they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never >> denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big >> deal?" --Jed Rothwell > >Why do you keep posting the above quote? ***{When Jed retracts the statement and apologizes for making it, I will remove it. What about it, Jed? Is there a shred of decency within you, or not? --MJ}*** > > > Vince > Las Vegas Nevada > __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 14:43:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07166; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:40:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:40:48 -0800 Message-ID: <20000328224004.22946.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.46] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gravity cap CAN'T work Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:40:04 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Pvt7t3.0.nl1.kJJuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Still say you folks have it backwards. This is relative density displacement. The thrust is coming from gravity balancing the scales of density. And this is not "work" in an energy sense this is propulsion. Just like a propeller is not "work", it is propulsion. Just like a hot air balloon is not work, it is propulsion. The electricity has to be generated to get the charge, then gravity does the lifting. But this charge has to get energy, it will not feed back and generatate energy. Until you folks understand anti-gravity action is gravity powered relative density displacemant you will never understand energy. Just ignore me. David >From: William Beaty >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Gravity cap CAN'T work >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:36:44 -0800 (PST) > >On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > My reaction: as described, this cannot > > produce thrust, and sounds like someone jumped the gun and sent out his > > April Fool's hoax a few days early. > >This was my reaction to the original paper ca. 1991. It is a HUGE amount >of work for something that might be a joke. The original author >reportedly died years ago, but dead hoaxers aren't any different than live >ones. I did find a source of tin foil (a dental supply house), but I >never had the ambition to build the capacitor. Now I have to get my tin >back from the guy I loaned it to. > > > > Here are a couple of objections to the idea: > > > > (1) Even small Vandegraaff generators produce charges of several hundred > > thousand volts. > >The original paper mentions batteries. I estimate the total capacitance >to be around 0.2uF (from measurement of a copper-foil capacitor layer >glued up on a single layer of waxpaper with rubber cement.) The anonymous >"S" says that the thrust appears within one second of turning on the VDG. >By V=T*I/C, and if the VDG produces 10uA, the capacitor voltage rises at >50V/Sec, so if the claim is genuine, significant thrust occurs at just >above 50V. Or, if his VDG has a high speed and a wide belt, the current >might be 100uA, so the thrust would appear at around 500V. "S" is out of >town until April 1 (!), so he has not yet tested a conventional power >supply to verify whether high voltage is needed to create thrust. Also, >he has repeatedly mentioned that he became sick after using the capacitor, >and recovered after several weeks of avoiding it, so he's in no great >hurry to work with it again. > > >It might be fortunate that he's using a VDG. The voltage would rise to a >maximum set by internal leakage in the capacitor. As soon as corona was >created on the edges of the foil, and the total leakage current matched >the VDG output, the voltage would stop rising. Since the sharp edges of >the foil are layed adjacent to each other on either side of the waxpaper >layers, the e-field at the edges will be high, even when the >total potential between them is fairly low, therefore a glow discharge >will ignite at a very low voltage. If humidity is high as well, then >perhaps the capacitor voltage never approaches 1KV. > > > > (2) Common sense also says this wouldn't work, even if the charge across > > the plates were less than the breakdown voltage of the dielectric. The > > reason: it is claimed that this capacitor produces a thrust toward the > > positive end. > >Yep. The device is nearly symmetrical. That's why I didn't build one. >The basic idea is crazy. Unless the stacking of those small tin strips >was enough to induce asymmetry, or perhaps the waxpaper has more wax on >one side, there is no reason for it to "choose one direction" and produce >a linear force. And even so, the direction of thrust should then NOT >depend upon polarity. The original paper does not stress any need for an >even number of plates. Strange. But "S" claims that a flat tin layer >works, with no little individual squares of tin needed. If the device is >a hoax, we now can verify this with FAR less effort. > >What we are left with is an anomalous observation. So, should we declare >it to be a hoax, on the grounds that it theoretically makes no sense? But >think for a moment: CAPACITORS WHICH PRODUCE LARGE CONTINUOUS THRUST MAKE >NO SENSE, at least according to mainstream physics. If we declare it to >be a hoax for such a reason, how can we complain when orthodox scientists >do the same thing for CF or any other "outlaw" science? It violates >theory, therefore the evidence must be ignored. > >The proper course here is NOT to fear hoaxers and make premature >judgements. The proper course is to demand evidence. Anonymous reports >are a form of weak anecdotal evidence. Photographs won't be much >stronger. Only a successful replication will be convincing (yet an >UNsuccessful replication doesn't prove the claim to be a hoax, any more >than Pons/Fleichman were proved to be hoaxers.) > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 14:53:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10636; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:49:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:49:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000328174805.0079fa70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:48:05 -0500 To: "Sparky" , From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: WAY OFF TOPIC: generating random numbers in 2+ locations In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"60QFW.0.2c2.vRJuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: The source >material does not have to be completely random, I've heard that >people use things like pages from the NYTimes etc . . . In WWII, agents would often use pages of old, nondescript books. >Not to be cheeky but if I have a good answer to jed's question >I wouldn't be posting it on a listserv, I'd be selling it. >Better would be an unbreakable means of exchanging keys . . . This is a big issue too. The problem was solved with RSA public key ciphers (invented at MIT in 1977), but with computers growing ever faster perhaps it will not remain solved. It occurred to me that the Internet, satellites and small (?) radiotelescopes may offer rich new source of keys and/or random numbers, which we have not considered until now. We want: Random, digital numbers with extremely low error rates. Numbers easy for both you and your correspondent to collect. Ideally, there should be such a flood of data it is too much for any organization to record. Astronomy would be the perfect source. Compressed sat-com TV digital broadcasting might work. I doubt that even the CIA has the wherewithal to record all channels from all satcoms, and why would they bother? If there is not an impossibly large flood of data, it should be so mundane and useless that no one would think to record it, such as the Amazon.com sales ranks for ten titles, or the number of people in an AOL chat room at measured intervals. Many nondescript streams of numbers should be available from the same source, so that no one could guess which one you select. I wonder if there is not some routine set of numbers flowing across the Internet, such as digital radio broadcasts or massive newsgroup postings (naughty binary images), which could be tapped for this purpose. Perhaps there are statistics like the Dow averages or baseball scores, only with so many numbers no one could log them all. If there is no such a thing today, there may be tomorrow, when high res movies course across the networks. I have heard there are thousands of "personal" cams, like jennicam.org, now operating. If there were millions it might be impossible to tell which one you selected to mix in with your data stream. In the old days spies would sometimes rendevous in back alleys or lonely, squalid bars where no one would think to look. This could be the modern version of that tradition. Watching people bop around on Internet is not difficult today for the spooks, but that may change as traffic increases. I should probably move this discussion to sci.crypt or sci.crypt.research, but I would be outclassed there. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 15:45:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27074; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:40:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:40:05 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! & Paul Brown's battery Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:39:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2gg2es4fqes96c3qn9li60umi2d3cbgp04 4ax.com> References: <200003281645.LAA20890 world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <200003281645.LAA20890 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA27033 Resent-Message-ID: <"ngQt8.0.yc6.LBKuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:45:10 -0500 (EST), Jim Uban wrote: [snip] >Perhaps Brown has accidentally come across the same >device, except in magnetic form. He uses a radioactive >source to drive his 'battery', assuming the energy >output actually is derived from the radioactives. >But, the reported power out from his battery does >not seem to reconcile with the strength of the source, >if I remember my I.E. articles. > >Maybe in Brown's case, the radioactives actually >just 'prime' his battery, the real source of energy >being the same as in our putative gravity capacitor. I suggested to Paul in private email last year that there were as far as I could tell two possibilities: 1) That which you describe here above, or 2) Increased decay rate. It was about then that Paul clammed up, and has not answered my emails since. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 15:57:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32202; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:54:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:54:16 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:08:24 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: WAY OFF TOPIC: generating random numbers in 2+ locations Resent-Message-ID: <"nli001.0.vs7.bOKuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:22 PM 3/28/0, Keith Nagel wrote: >The problem Jed is trying to address is the old key exchange >problem, how do you get key information to the recipient in >such a manner as to prevent all others from accessing it. Technology for doing that may be right around the corner. It's called quantum entanglement. You disperse chunks of quantum entangled matter to various desired points and stimulate one of them to communicate with the others. There is no way for an adversary to receive the message or even know a message was sent without obtaining some of the entangled matter himself. Multiply entagled particles have only recently been created. See quote appended below. This method, like the one time pad, requires, without compromise, getting something physically transmitted from one place to another initially. I do have a slick means of encryption using present technology, and have fast and as far as I know original algorithms for implementing such, but am not up on what's happening in the field right now, so can not vouch for the strength of the encryption, only that the method adds much additional strength to whatever other means of encryption one might use in addition. Of course, I probably shouldn't discuss that here. 8^) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 475 March 17, 2000 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein THE FIRST ENTANGLEMENT OF FOUR PARTICLES has been experimentally achieved by researchers at NIST (Christopher Monroe, 303-497-7415), demonstrating a technique that significantly advances the difficult prospect of building a useful quantum computer. To perform powerful calculations, such as factoring huge numbers or quickly finding items in large databases, a quantum computer typically must contain many particles "entangled" with each other. Entanglement describes a very special interlinking that can occur between particles (such as photons or ions) even if they are physically separated or otherwise isolated from one another. While entangled, each particle is in a fuzzy, noncommital state (for example, being in a combination or "superposition" of a low and high energy state) but has a precisely defined relationship with its partners. Specifically, when one particle eventually "collapses" into a definite state, it essentially causes its entangled partner to collapse into a complementary state, even if it is halfway across the galaxy. Entanglement is difficult enough to achieve in two particles, or even three (Update 414), but last year, theorists in Denmark proposed a practical method for entangling any number of particles. (Molmer and Sorensen, Phys. Rev. Lett., 1 Mar 1999; see article at Physics News Select Articles.) Their proposal, based in turn on a earlier idea (Cirac and Zoller, Phys. Rev. Lett, 15 May 1995), involves trapping a string of ions in electromagnetic fields. To create multiple entanglement, laser pulses can interlink each ion's internal state (known as its spin) to the overall motion of the ions rocking back and forth. The Molmer-Sorensen technique enables researchers to accomplish this in a single pulse. NIST researchers demonstrated this technique with four ions (electrical noise made it difficult to do more), but they showed that entanglement of many more particles is now possible. (Sackett et al, Nature, 16 March 2000.) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 16:10:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05612; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:07:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:07:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Info. from BLP website Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:47:01 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004b01bf98fc$80a34ef0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> In-Reply-To: <004b01bf98fc$80a34ef0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA05575 Resent-Message-ID: <"0mFIq2.0.VN1.yaKuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:28:04 -0500, George Holz wrote: [snip] >Also, pages 32 of http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf >contains a sketch of a " Gyrotron Plasma to Microwave to Electricity >Power Converter". Although this does not appear to be the >"solid state device" mentioned above, I would be interested in >any comments about how this device might function. [snip] Unless by "solid state" they mean without moving parts. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 18:01:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08328; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:52:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:52:32 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:17:34 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: A truly scientific approach (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA08240 Resent-Message-ID: <"fK9qx2.0.y12.W7Muu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello, Maybe one of the vorts has an asswer to Carls question? Ron *** Forwarded message, originally written by Carl Lennon lennon digital.net on 28-Mar-00 *** Hi Roger and Ron, As you recall,I submitted a question to the Mad Scientist Network. The question was asking for an explanation of why is there a difference in the charging rate of a small water capacator with polarity. The question made it past the review board so I thou ght I might get an answer. I think that you will get a kick out of this professional scientists response to my question. Carl Subject: Why does the charging rate of a small water capacitor vary with polarity? >> Carl writes after receiving first non-response: Thanks for considering my question, I think your analysis of why the resistance varies with time is probably correct; however it does not explain why it the time required to reach a specified resistance varies with polarity. Both of the capacitor plates are made of the same material. In regard to how I measured the 7 pF value. I used an HP Vector Impedance meter. I measured the capacitive reactance at 90 mHz in polar form and then calculated the value of the capacitor. Thanks again, Carl In a message dated 3/24/00 7:12:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, www www.madsci.org writes: Carl, Well, it seems to me an asymmetry is causing the problem. It may well be more associated with whether the vector impedance meter itself has a "floating" output. But the instrument you are using appears to be being asked to perform beyond its design parameters. I simply wouldn't trust anything from it. You see, 7 pf can come from the terminals and the wires leading to them alone. I would not pursue this further because I think it leads to a dead end. L. S. *** End of forwarded message *** -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 18:38:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23653; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:34:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:34:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000328213112.00794100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:31:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Statement from RSA Labs FAQ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nO38c3.0.Un5.zkMuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Regarding encoding, this is what I was talking about, from http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/faq/2-1-5.html: One-time Pads Current interest in stream ciphers is most commonly attributed to the appealing theoretical properties of the one-time pad. A one-time pad, sometimes called the Vernam cipher [Ver26], uses a string of bits that is generated completely at random. The keystream is the same length as the plaintext message and the random string is combined using bitwise exclusive-OR with the plaintext to produce the ciphertext. Since the entire keystream is random, even an opponent with infinite computational resources can only guess the plaintext if he or she sees the ciphertext. Such a cipher is said to offer perfect secrecy, and the analysis of the one-time pad is seen as one of the cornerstones of modern cryptography [Sha49]. While the one-time pad saw use during wartime over diplomatic channels requiring exceptionally high security, the fact that the secret key (which can be used only once) is as long as the message introduces severe key-management problems. While perfectly secure, the one-time pad is in general impractical. Stream ciphers were developed as an approximation to the action of the one-time pad. While contemporary stream ciphers are unable to provide the satisfying theoretical security of the one-time pad, they are at least practical. - - - - - - - According to the FAQ this is the fastest and most secure method of encoding, as I thought. If the astronomical method I described could be made practical, I think it would have an impact on the industry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 18:45:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA26627; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:41:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:41:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gravity cap CAN'T work Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:41:02 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <83r2es0naof1alup46m6cr10n50m904kje 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA26570 Resent-Message-ID: <"NcI06.0.sV6.irMuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:39:34 -0800 (PST), William Beaty wrote: [snip] >If this "grav cap" does work, there is a problem. It will attract >attention, and inexperienced people will ignore the warnings, build it, >and kill themselves. [snip] Why is this a problem? Sometimes it doesn't matter how many times you warn someone that something is dangerous, they ignore you. They exercise their free will, and that is their right. You can't hold everyone's hand all the time. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 20:05:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10260; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:02:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:02:17 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:01:17 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38E01E03.7CBD skylink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA10188 Resent-Message-ID: <"OrZVb.0.CW2.51Ouu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:30:40 -0800, Fred Epps wrote: [snip] >Then there is the Meyer-Mace patent which claims OU from HF induction >through a soft iron core resulting in isotopic transmutation (patent [snip] Hi Fred, Do you have anything more on this one? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 28 20:16:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30442; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:14:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:14:48 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:29:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Statement from RSA Labs FAQ Resent-Message-ID: <"Ir6tD2.0.aR7.uCOuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:31 PM 3/28/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Regarding encoding, this is what I was talking about, from >http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/faq/2-1-5.html: > > > >One-time Pads > >Current interest in stream ciphers is most commonly attributed to the >appealing theoretical properties of the one-time pad. A one-time pad, >sometimes called the Vernam cipher [Ver26], uses a string of bits that is >generated completely at random. The keystream is the same length as the >plaintext message and the random string is combined using bitwise >exclusive-OR with the plaintext to produce the ciphertext. Since the entire >keystream is random, even an opponent with infinite computational resources >can only guess the plaintext if he or she sees the ciphertext. Such a >cipher is said to offer perfect secrecy, and the analysis of the one-time >pad is seen as one of the cornerstones of modern cryptography [Sha49]. >While the one-time pad saw use during wartime over diplomatic channels >requiring exceptionally high security, the fact that the secret key (which >can be used only once) is as long as the message introduces severe >key-management problems. While perfectly secure, the one-time pad is in >general impractical. > >Stream ciphers were developed as an approximation to the action of the >one-time pad. While contemporary stream ciphers are unable to provide the >satisfying theoretical security of the one-time pad, they are at least >practical. > >- - - - - - - > >According to the FAQ this is the fastest and most secure method of >encoding, as I thought. If the astronomical method I described could be >made practical, I think it would have an impact on the industry. > >- Jed > The Vernam cycpher has the disadvantage of (extremely) limiting the amount of information that can be sent without a courrier run or return to base. It is good for communicating small messages to submarines, however, where the data is secure and returns to port are routine and secure. The astronomical method has the disadvantage of requiring special equipment, plus the possibility of a high and even disabling error rate, due to atmospheric conditions, as well as the need for access to the atmosphere. There are a number of methods available for dramatic improvement over the security of stream cyphers. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 04:48:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA12925; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:48:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:48:12 -0800 Message-ID: <001701bf9985$35963600$5d441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:46:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"vpLcp3.0.t93.BkVuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Drew ~ 250 milliliters of softened well water (100 ft. private well) from the tap. Initial resistance of ~ 1.0 cm depth in SS sauce pan 30 k-ohm scale on digital meter 6.0Kohms. Brought to boil on electric heating elemen for ~ 2.0 minutes; 14 K-ohms Cooled by setting pan in large pan a room temp; ~11.0 K-ohms Set to cool and Monitor: 10 minutes 12 K-ohms 12 minutes 16 K-ohms 14 minutes 12 K-ohms 16 Minutes 12 K-ohms 18 Minutes 12.8 K-ohms 20 Minutes 14.0 K-ohms 30 Minutes 14.6 K-ohms What did boiling chase out of the water? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 05:41:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA23819; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:41:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:41:00 -0800 Message-ID: <002501bf998c$91dcc8a0$5d441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:39:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"QhsBp2.0.4q5.iVWuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Why should the resistance of tap water increase by ~ 33% when ran in a blender for ~ 10 seconds? Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) annihilation, perhaps? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 07:37:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02367; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:36:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:36:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329103458.0079b390 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:34:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Statement from RSA Labs FAQ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tI9OZ3.0.va.hBYuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >The Vernam cycpher has the disadvantage of (extremely) limiting the amount >of information that can be sent without a courrier run or return to base. That is hard to believe in this era of cheap, hand-held 50 GB disks and DAT tapes. I guess the data sets expand to fit the media allotted. Do you suppose they are transmitting high-res videoconferencing from under the sea? I use a portable 20 GB USB connected hard disk for backup these days. It weighs . . . 1.3 kg. Amazing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 07:53:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20951; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:45:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:45:37 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <83r2es0naof1alup46m6cr10n50m904kje 4ax.com> References: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:44:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Gravity cap CAN'T work Resent-Message-ID: <"bVTFF3.0.F75.UKYuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:39:34 -0800 (PST), William Beaty wrote: >[snip] >>If this "grav cap" does work, there is a problem. It will attract >>attention, and inexperienced people will ignore the warnings, build it, >>and kill themselves. >[snip] >Why is this a problem? Sometimes it doesn't matter how many times you warn >someone that something is dangerous, they ignore you. They exercise their >free will, and that is their right. You can't hold everyone's hand all the >time. ***{Absolutely correct. People have a right to do with their property, including their bodies, as they wish, so long as they respect the property rights of others. Moreover, when those rights are protected, lives are saved in the net. In the present case, if the "gravity-warp capacitor" or some other putative space drive works, it will enable mankind to expand to the stars, and, in the process, will save literally billions of human lives. If a few reckless individuals perish in the search for it, that is a small price to pay, provided only that they did what they did of their own free choice. Attempts to "save" such people by slapping controls on the sale of materials needed for homebrew experimentation will, by slowing the rate of progress, kill thousands of people for every person saved. --MJ}*** > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 08:00:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10385; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:57:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:57:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001701bf9985$35963600$5d441d26 fjsparber> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:56:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Resent-Message-ID: <"ZroL-.0.BY2.KVYuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Drew ~ 250 milliliters of softened well water (100 ft. private well) from >the tap. > >Initial resistance of ~ 1.0 cm depth in SS sauce pan 30 k-ohm scale on >digital meter 6.0Kohms. > >Brought to boil on electric heating elemen for ~ 2.0 minutes; 14 K-ohms > >Cooled by setting pan in large pan a room temp; ~11.0 K-ohms > >Set to cool and Monitor: > >10 minutes 12 K-ohms > >12 minutes 16 K-ohms > >14 minutes 12 K-ohms > >16 Minutes 12 K-ohms > >18 Minutes 12.8 K-ohms > >20 Minutes 14.0 K-ohms > >30 Minutes 14.6 K-ohms > >What did boiling chase out of the water? ***{Dissolved gases are removed by boiling because, unlike dissolved solids, their solubility decreases as temperature rises. Thus, before boiling, we have the following equilibrium reaction: CO2 + H2O <--> H2CO3, which is carbonic acid. Since H2CO3 is an acid, it produces ions in the solution, which lower the resistance. After boiling, the CO2 is driven off, which shifts the equilibrium to the left, causing most of the H2CO3 to break down into CO2 + H2O, thereby increasing the resistance of the solution. --MJ}*** > >Regards, Frederick __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 08:07:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15750; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:05:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:05:41 -0800 Message-ID: <20000329160506.76682.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.144] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gravity cap CAN'T work Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:05:06 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Eu3GF2.0.wr3.KdYuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Correct, the public and the private. A man's house is his castle, but the castle should never, never, again go back to the King ruling with absolute power. David >From: Mitchell Jones >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Gravity cap CAN'T work >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:44:50 -0600 > > >On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:39:34 -0800 (PST), William Beaty wrote: > >[snip] > >>If this "grav cap" does work, there is a problem. It will attract > >>attention, and inexperienced people will ignore the warnings, build it, > >>and kill themselves. > >[snip] > >Why is this a problem? Sometimes it doesn't matter how many times you >warn > >someone that something is dangerous, they ignore you. They exercise their > >free will, and that is their right. You can't hold everyone's hand all >the > >time. > >***{Absolutely correct. People have a right to do with their property, >including their bodies, as they wish, so long as they respect the property >rights of others. Moreover, when those rights are protected, lives are >saved in the net. In the present case, if the "gravity-warp capacitor" or >some other putative space drive works, it will enable mankind to expand to >the stars, and, in the process, will save literally billions of human >lives. If a few reckless individuals perish in the search for it, that is a >small price to pay, provided only that they did what they did of their own >free choice. Attempts to "save" such people by slapping controls on the >sale of materials needed for homebrew experimentation will, by slowing the >rate of progress, kill thousands of people for every person saved. --MJ}*** > > > > >Regards, > > > >Robin van Spaandonk > >__________________________________ >"Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are >dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, >they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never >denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big >deal?" --Jed Rothwell > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 08:59:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25999; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:53:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:53:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002501bf998c$91dcc8a0$5d441d26 fjsparber> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:52:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Resent-Message-ID: <"1HT7l.0.yL6.zJZuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Why should the resistance of tap water increase by ~ 33% when ran in >a blender for ~ 10 seconds? ***{Same answer as to your earlier question: when you run the water in the blender, you heat it. When you heat it, you reduce the solubility of dissolved gases, including those which were producing ions in the solution. As the number of ions in the solution falls, resistance rises. --MJ}*** > >Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) annihilation, perhaps? > >Regards, Frederick __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 09:39:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03825; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:35:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:35:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003d01bf99ad$5dfcbe20$5d441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:33:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"7h2CT1.0.Xx.nxZuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Jones To: Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Wrong answer. I did research on the uptake of atmospheric CO2 and it's effect on water resistance 30 years ago. The effect is immediate. If anything the water ran in the blender would DROP in resistance due to CO2 Uptake. FJS > >To: Vortex > > > >Why should the resistance of tap water increase by ~ 33% when ran in > >a blender for ~ 10 seconds? > > ***{Same answer as to your earlier question: when you run the water in the > blender, you heat it. When you heat it, you reduce the solubility of > dissolved gases, including those which were producing ions in the solution. > As the number of ions in the solution falls, resistance rises. --MJ}*** > > > > >Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) annihilation, perhaps? > > > >Regards, Frederick > > __________________________________ > "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are > dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, > they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never > denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big > deal?" --Jed Rothwell > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 10:05:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07889; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:55:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:55:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:55:25 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Lajoie To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance In-Reply-To: <002501bf998c$91dcc8a0$5d441d26 fjsparber> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WKBW92.0.xw1.XEauu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > To: Vortex > > Why should the resistance of tap water increase by ~ 33% when ran in > a blender for ~ 10 seconds? > > Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) annihilation, perhaps? > > Regards, Frederick > Far more likely reasons are the increased temperature of the water and the increased amount of disolved air. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 10:05:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18625; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:01:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:01:00 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003d01bf99ad$5dfcbe20$5d441d26 fjsparber> References: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:00:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Resent-Message-ID: <"_isIa2.0.vY4.RJauu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mitchell Jones >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 8:52 AM >Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance > >Wrong answer. I did research on the uptake of atmospheric CO2 and it's >effect on >water resistance 30 years ago. The effect is immediate. If anything the water >ran in the blender would DROP in resistance due to CO2 Uptake. ***{The reasonable assumption is that the water contained an equilibrium amount of CO2 for the given conditions *before* you turned on the blender. If so, then at constant temperature there would be *no* CO2 uptake. However, since the blender would have the effect of heating the water, there would be a net loss of CO2, and of H2CO3, hence a rise in resistance. If you disagree with this reasoning, why do you disagree? --MJ}*** > >FJS > > >> >To: Vortex >> > >> >Why should the resistance of tap water increase by ~ 33% when ran in >> >a blender for ~ 10 seconds? >> >> ***{Same answer as to your earlier question: when you run the water in the >> blender, you heat it. When you heat it, you reduce the solubility of >> dissolved gases, including those which were producing ions in the solution. >> As the number of ions in the solution falls, resistance rises. --MJ}*** >> >> > >> >Light Lepton (Positrino-Negatrino) annihilation, perhaps? >> > >> >Regards, Frederick >> >> __________________________________ >> "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are >> dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, >> they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never >> denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big >> deal?" --Jed Rothwell >> >> __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 10:17:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23481; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:11:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:11:04 -0800 Message-ID: <20000329181029.4544.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.41] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: [antigrav] Re: A 3-Way Exchange on the Ground of the Aether Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:10:29 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"L4L-h1.0.ok5.tSauu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Cosmolgical Constant. >From: "David Dennard" >Reply-To: greenglow egroups.com >To: greenglow egroups.com >Subject: [antigrav] Re: A 3-Way Exchange on the Ground of the Aether >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:16:07 PST > >Getting real close here. Mass is gravity. The more you get the more you >got. Like the latest report in Discover Magazine (April) R&D, In The >Beginning All Was Blackness, page 16. > >Gravity is the "Origin of Energy", as stated in "The Pearl of Wisdom", > going on for years now put down by this list and >many others, ignored at , cursed by hot shot know it >all scientists. > >The section on pressure here is a good definition of relative density >displacement, and fluid space is the key. And is the unified field >explaination. It is only because I am not a scientist has my information >been ignored and put down and disrespected. And I assume it will continue >to be as science and scientists try to say they figured it. Years ago I >was >the laughing stock. Now it seems I am right on target. > >If we have any history in the future, if there is any future, maybe someone >will look back through all this and see. But we can see it now if you only >look, and we can use this to change now, bring on the clean energy, the >saucers, everything, and find Universal Balance, Restoration, and >Renaisance. > >Or we can go the other way, get rid of me, sure don't want some poor guy to >be seen as correct, let the forces of the anit-christ take rule and bring >this planet to "World Peace" as some big shot claims to be God and claims >all my work as his own. > >David Dennard >"in sackcloth and ashes" >http://www.whirlpower.cc > > > >>From: JhanDavis aol.com >>Reply-To: greenglow egroups.com >>To: greenglow egroups.com >>Subject: [antigrav] A 3-Way Exchange on the Ground of the Aether >>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:05:25 EST >> >>[Gareth]: >>Tom assumes a force of gravitational attraction actually exists. Nature, >>it >>seems, cannot produce a force of attraction, only a force of repulsion. >> >>[Caroline]: >>Yes, I expect he does assume an actual "force of attraction", but the >>argument would still hold, I think, if you recognised that the effect of >>gravity is the result of the imbalance between pressure from the rest of >>the >>universe and lesser pressure from nearby mass. What he could argue is >>that >>the speed of propagation of the waves carrying the lesser pressure appears >>to >>be almost infinite. The missing ingredient in his picture - the one that >>matters - is the aether. >> >>[Jhan]: >>Strange that, after all these hundreds of years, gravity remains >>describable >>only as an effect which can be described as an acceleration *ultimately* >>resolvable to f = ma (the work formula), but not in terms which describe >>the >>*dynamic* cause of the effect itself! >> >>Physics would have us believe that gravity is an effect derived simply >>from >>the "presence" of matter. Which would make matter the pre-requisite, or >>ground (pardon the pun), of gravity. >> >>I have to side with the back-to-basics physicists on the generation of >>effects: you have to have a change in something, a "delta," to get an >>effect; any effect. Which then would apply to gravity as the effect du >>jour, >>*and* the nuclear strong force, and the weak force, and electromagnetism. >> >>If we submit that an aether exists and that energy is an effect >>"derivable" >>from it, it becomes only a matter of conceptually taking the "second >>derivative" to accept matter as an aether effect related to energy through >>the simple transform provided by Einstein. I would like to submit that >>matter is an *extremely* dynamic energy effect, an "apparent" >>self-sustaining >> bound-field energy effect much more akin to energy than we've yet >>learned >>to >>accept. >> >>Gareth's magnets, placed north-south / north-south, really do resist being >>"forced" together. Which means that the magnetic field is a dynamic >>effect, >>not a static effect, as f = ma directly applies to that experiment. And >>that >>attractive force when they're placed north-south / south-north is just as >>real as the repulsive force. If we were to extend the description of >>what's >>happening with the lodestones to gravity, and the strong force, and the >>weak >>force, and then call the "lodestone" effect "electromagnetic" instead of >>just >>"magnetic" I think physics might get unconstipated. Same force; different >>scale of application. Let's stop here. This could lead to a >>unified-field. >> >>And now, while we're talking about constipation, a commercial message: >> >>"The aether is an effective intermediate physical paradigm which can be >>beneficial when applied in a conscientiously-applied program of *original* >>physical science and regular philosophical oversight!" >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>To Post a message, send it to: greenglow eGroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: greenglow-unsubscribe eGroups.com >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. >>Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already >>registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: >>http://click.egroups.com/1/2637/6/_/197624/_/954302734/ >> >>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! >>-- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=greenglow&m=1 >> >> > >______________________________________________________ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >To Post a message, send it to: greenglow eGroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: greenglow-unsubscribe eGroups.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com: >http://click.egroups.com/1/2377/6/_/197624/_/954321370/ > >-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault >-- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/greenglow/?m=1 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 10:17:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24338; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:13:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:13:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20000329181312.58279.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.41] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Gravity Constant Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:13:12 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZiDWM3.0.5y5.UVauu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is probably one of the most important science announcements that backs up the fluid space gravity paradigm. This is key to Whirlpower as being not just a power we can tap on Earth in the whirlpool, it is the power driving the entire Universe. One of the things about Whirlpower is that it has predicted space science discoveries before they happen. In my debates going back a few years I noted how spinning objects would cause objects to orbit around them like whirlpools. I didn't know about frame dragging. Never heard of it. But after I described it in my debates it came out in the news in Luigi Stella's frame dragging discovery. Then Vera Rubin's spiral galaxy and "mysterious dark matter" studies showed a %90 unaccounted for energy of motion. I stated then and there is was not that we have a %90 heavier Universe, that is was the gravitational effect of frame dragging. These scientists call it "a mysterious anti-gravity force. I call it Whirlpower. Then PBS announces the news about the vortex, "is not what we thought it was". I know a few other ways to make Whirlpower if this concept of tapping the gravitational radiation of the "Fire of Kundalini" is valid. It does seem as if the science as we know it is changing and scientists "are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs", as Vera Rubin says it in the ABC News Transcript I have posted at my website. The "cosmological constant" Einstien dismissed in favor of his void curved space theory he was said to have worked all his later years on. He knew his theory was disproven when the (so called) refraction of light did not meet his exact specfications of 1.75 seconds of an arc in the mearusrment the condensed light in the gravity telescope. He died still trying to find the answer. I can explain this if any are interested. And, like Permutter says, this is for people who like to "have fun considering the possibilities". If you can't think or think you or science already knows it all then you will not think this is fun at all. We are one hundred years down a dead end road of pollution thanks to know it all scientific dogma, when really the answer was right in front of our eyes the entire time. David Dennard The Gravity Paradigm http://www.whirlpower.cc Date: May 27, 1999 Scientists Conclude Anti-Gravity Force Is Accelerating Expansion of the Universe PRINCETON, N.J. -- After reviewing recent astronomical observations, Princeton scientists have concluded that the evidence strongly supports the existence of a mysterious anti-gravity force that is causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate. They presented their argument in a review article that will be published in the May 28 edition of the journal Science. The researchers are Neta Bahcall and Jeremiah Ostriker of the Department of Astrophysics and PaulSteinhardt of the Department of Physics, in collaboration with Saul Perlmutter of Berkeley National Laboratory. Scientists have known since the 1920s that the universe is expanding, and they discovered in the last year that the expansion is likely to go on forever. In recent months, however, evidence has emerged to suggest that not only will the expansion continue, it will accelerate. The only way to account for such acceleration is the existence of a force to counteract the gravitational forces that would stabilize or shrink the universe. The Princeton scientists have now bolstered that idea by reconciling three independent sets of data and showing that the data have a surprising degree of agreement. The data, some of which was generated at Princeton, have been used to answer three questions: How much matter is in the universe? Is the expansion rate slowing down or speeding up? And, is the universe flat? The Princeton scientists used a framework they call the "Cosmic Triangle",to relate the three questions and show for the first time how they merge into a unified picture of a universe that is flat, lightweight and expanding at an accelerating rate. "It's a very exciting time because we are starting to reveal the status of the universe and it tells us something very unexpected," says Bahcall. It is the acceleration idea that is most surprising, she says. Bahcall cautions, however, that these conjectures must be confirmed by further improvements in the data, which are expected to come from a variety of sources over the next few years. The expansion of the universe can be described in terms of a car coasting along a road as a result of a big push (the Big Bang). The mass of the universe, with the gravitational pull it exerts, is analogous to the friction and wind resistance that slow the car. In this analogy, there is so little resistance (gravitational tug) that the car never stops. The only way it could accelerate is if it were rolling downhill or if someone were depressing the gas pedal. The new force in the universe is like the downhill tug or an engine pushing the car. "The evidence is now getting stronger that there really is a force in the universe that competes with gravity and causes repulsion instead of attraction," says Ostriker. To account for this force, referred to as cosmic dark energy, scientists recently have revived a concept called the cosmological constant. In their paper, the Princeton scientists describe this cosmic dark energy as "a vacuum energy assigned to empty space itself, a form of energy with negative pressure." Einstein first introduced the cosmological constant in 1917, but later withdrew it, calling it the worst mistake of his life. Understanding the source and nature of this force poses deep new problems for physicists. "It's of very profound physical significance," says Ostriker. The work to explain the source of this force already has begun. Steinhardt, a co-author, recently introduced a possible new force called quintessence, which may account for the dark energy. Another implication of this new understanding of the universe is that it gives scientists a radically new picture of the future of the universe. It appears that the dark energy could eventually overwhelm the gravitational forces of matter. The density of matter in the universe would then become insignificant, so that the universe would approach an essentially uniform force field of dark energy. The researchers conclude that understanding dark energy, and hence the future of the universe, will be "one of the grand challenges of the millennium to come." Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory May 25, 1999 Dark Energy Fills The Cosmos BERKELEY, CA -- In an article titled "The Cosmic Triangle: Revealing the State of the Universe," which appears in the May 28, 1999, issue of the journal Science, a group of cosmologists and physicists from Princeton found in them. These measurements suggest that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. Curvature is estimated from measurements of the anisotropy (temperature fluctuation) of the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB), a remnant of the Big Bang. Although uncertainty is large, current results suggest a flat universe. The Cosmic Triangle eliminates some popular models, such as a high-density universe that is slowing down and will eventually recollapse, as well as a nearly empty universe with no dark energy and low mass. While the evidence from galactic clusters shows that mass density is low, supernova evidence for acceleration shows that dark energy must be abundant. "These two legs of the Cosmic Triangle agree with the evidence from the CMB that the universe is flat," Perlmutter says, adding that "this is a remarkable agreement for these early days of empirical cosmology." Thus the Cosmic Triangle suggests that the standard inflationary scenario is on the right track: one of its key predictions is a flat universe. Various types of dark energy have been proposed, including a cosmic field associated with inflation; a different, low-energy field dubbed "quintessence"; and the cosmological constant, or vacuum energy of empty space. Unlike Einstein's famous fudge factor, the cosmological constant in its present incarnation doesn't delicately (and artificially) balance gravity in order to maintain a static universe; instead, it has "negative pressure" that causes expansion to accelerate. "The term Cosmic Triangle sounds kind of New Agey," says Perlmutter, "but it's a good way to portray the quantities in these comparisons, and it's fun for people who like to plot the possibilities" -- an evolving task that, among other choices, will require finding an answer to "the most provocative and profound" issue of all, the nature of cosmic dark energy. The Berkeley Lab is a U.S. Department of Energy national laboratory located in Berkeley, California. It conducts unclassified scientific research andis managed by the University of California. Visit our website at http://www.lbl.gov . ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 10:42:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00754; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:39:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:39:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329133810.007a2350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:38:10 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Stuff from Eric Krieg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cGS3s.0.gB.Otauu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is stuff from Eric Krieg, who is a jerk, but sometimes an informative jerk: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:40:01 -0500 From: Eric Krieg Reply-To: eric phact.org To: free_energy onelist.com Subject: free energy - BLP investigation, and skeptic bashing People, A new claimant at: http://www.singtech.com/contents.html I did get a list from Antony, it just didn't have phone numbers. I got through to Alfred Miller of Lehigh university. He knew of no one doing calorimetry studies. He has done XPS studies on samples Mills gave him. He's seen interesting things that are not easily explained - but is very clear that it is still inconclusive. He doesn't poo poo this stuff out of hand, but I gather that he is not convinced the laws of physics must be rewritten either. I don't believe his skill areas overlap my own. So I can't really conclude anything significant from his data. It doesn't support Mills - but it doesn't prove him a fraud either. I also got through to another fellow: Chuck Haldeman has worked for Lincoln Labs and spent 2 -3 years trying to get it up to the power levels Mills said. He only got 5 watts excess power - That's taking a known power in from a power supply calibrated with HP equipment (some of the time they ran pulsed power in). He says you have to subtract input power needed to electrolyze the light water. He calculates that power from the volume of gas produced. (chance for error?) He says others reviewed his work and found no trouble. He was most forth-coming. He's not convinced that Mill's theory is correct, but he does feel that there is proof of anomalous energy out. I for one do not know if there is a prosaic chemical explanation of what is happening. It sounded like he was very thorough about energy measurements and proper calibration. He was never convinced that he saw evidence for the shrunken hydrogen - what he saw using speed of sound, compressibility and other tests appeared to be argon and another gas that he think leaked through teflon. His company decided to abandon searching for ways to make it work better. He did say it ran for weeks putting out consistent energy. It ends up being a 1.5 degree heat flux from their cell that tells them the energy levels. He says their ambient is consistent and that they calibrate the relationship between energy output and temperature gradient by running resister heating. Haldeman is an older guy who says he has been following what people call CF for some time. So far, this seems like the best evidence for excess heat - but unfortunately it is not set up so I can't take a trip down to see for myself. It's interesting to me that people are still selling free energy video tapes promoting Dennis Lee's abandoned heat pump based design: http://lateralthinking.com/exclusive/free-energy.html#VIDFER I don't care for Gene Mallove - but he is a leading pro voice in FE - in this missive, he bashes the senior skeptic on the subject: (beginning of original message) Subject: Mallove reviews Park's Voodoo From: editor infinite-energy.com (Eugene F. Mallove) Date: 2000/03/16 Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud . . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . . . and so on, quoting Mallove and an uninteresting letter from me to Krieg. Apparently Kreig believes the "senior skeptic" has credibility, which proves yet again that no one is more gullible than a skeptic. Park and Morrison skewer basic physics and confuse 650 and 1,500,000. Kreig is such a patsy he goes along with them and he bashes Mallove instead! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 10:46:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16495; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000329183606.45442.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.41] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cosmic Driving Force Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:36:06 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JqzRu3.0.b14.qqauu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's all about the "fudge factor". Science has been lying for decades. Einstien is bunk. But it is not Einstein's fault. He stated the measurment had to be exactly 1.75. He knew it was disproven and went back to work on the Cosmological Constant till the day he died. It is know it all scientific dogma that is to blame. David Cosmic Driving Force By Kathy Sawyer Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday , February 19, 2000 BERKELEY, Calif. -- Saul Perlmutter ignored his view of a russet sunset backlighting the Golden Gate Bridge and pulled down a blue plastic shade to cut the glare. From his command post here in the bayside hills, the physicist was busy directing a quest to understand a mysterious force that seems to be taking over the universe. As he consulted urgently by phone and e-mail with a multinational team of sleep-deprived scientists, a phalanx of the world's most advanced telescopes awaited Perlmutter's next instruction. In the basement of his laboratory complex, one of the most powerful supercomputer arrays in the country was processing cataracts of data streaming in from stars exploding in thermonuclear fury billions of light-years away. Down the hall, engineers were drawing up blueprints for an orbiting observatory equipped with "gigacam," the biggest and most sensitive computer imager ever built. In a micro-foundry in the next building, another colleague was at work on an advanced computer chip--a detector--that will accomplish in three hours of astronomical observations what now takes 30. This is Perlmutter's Supernova Cosmology Project, an intense, single-minded scientific quest for clues about an unknown force that can be summed up in a single word stolen from fantasy fiction: antigravity. Most scientists were convinced years ago that the universe is expanding from a point of genesis known as the Big Bang. But they had assumed that the outward rush was gradually being slowed by the gravitational attraction of all the star-filled galaxies--somewhat like a rubber band stretching ever closer to its outer limit. The only question, they assumed, was "slowing by how much?" Two years ago, Perlmutter's group, along with a rival team led by Brian Schmidt of Australia's Mount Stromlo and Siding Spring Observatories, rocked the scientific world with the announcement that the cosmic expansion is not slowing at all. In fact, something appears to be speeding it up. Ordinary gravity is not in control. The import of their findings is staggering: that "empty" space actually sizzles with some kind of powerful energy that is becoming the dominant influence in the universe, wresting that role away from gravity. Scientists suspect that this energy, which has never been detected directly, takes the form of "virtual" subatomic particles that pop in and out of existence. But however it works, its defining characteristic is that it somehow inflates the wilderness of ethereal "nothingness" that separates cosmic objects. In other words, while gravity draws objects together, this enigmatic energy acts as a repellent--a negative gravity. At stake in the discovery is one of the most profound questions of the ages: How will the universe end? Instead of recollapsing in fire, the evidence suggests, the twinkling firmament will thin to virtual infinity until all is cold and dark. But that's not all: The ramifications ripple all the way through theories of cosmic birth and evolution into fundamental physics, down to the tiniest scales known or imagined. The two teams detected the apparent influence of the negative gravity by studying dozens of fleeting blooms of light from stars exploding far across time and space in the early universe. They deconstructed the signals in a way that enabled them to measure the stretching of space itself. Extraordinary claims, scientists like to say, require extraordinary proofs. Accordingly, Perlmutter finds himself at the forefront of the inevitable assault on his own results to see if they stand up and, if they do, to make sense of them. Hailed as 1998's "breakthrough of the year" by the journal Science, the supernova evidence continues to be perhaps the hottest item in a general onslaught of new information about the universe and our place in it. As the millennium turns, students of the cosmos rejoice that they are alive during a scientific golden age. "It almost feels like we're taking our first baby steps as a species, as a civilization, toward actually having a model of the universe that will hold up over the next 500,000 years," Perlmutter said, as he waited for another wave of data. For the first time in history, as Perlmutter's operation illustrates, humanity has acquired the technology and know-how to apply scientific methods to studies of the entire known universe, addressing questions previously left to realms of religion, art and philosophy. In coming decades, researchers will mobilize powerful new instruments to probe as deep into time and space as physics will allow. Some of them will search for clearer evidence of the elusive energy in the vacuum. The advent of a new cosmology--an altered vision of the cosmos--has sometimes radically changed the culture of its time, Joel Primack, of the University of California at Santa Cruz, told a gathering of cosmologists and theologians. The scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries helped end the Middle Ages and bring about the European Enlightenment. But it also split scientific knowledge from human meaning. "The sun is lost, and the Earth and no man's wit can well direct him where to look for it. . . . All in pieces, all coherence gone." This is how the metaphysical poet John Donne, writing in 1611, reacted to the collapse of the medieval heavens brought about by Galileo and others working with the newfangled instruments called telescopes. "This," said Primack, "was the impact of a new cosmology." Civilization moved on, of course, building a new "coherence" in place of the old. This is how science pushes and stretches our thinking. But behind each upheaval lies the tedious work of cosmic detectives like >Perlmutter and his "group intelligence," winnowing clues from ancient cataclysms in a race against the dying of the light. The concept of a dark energy residing in empty space has a checkered past. As the 20th century began, mainstream scientists favored a static universe, peaceful and eternal. New theories and observations soon toppled that view and replaced it with inklings of a cosmos in which the galaxies are flying apart--something like buttons glued onto an inflating balloon. At the time, Albert Einstein was polishing a stunning new theory of gravity. Scrambling to keep his equations in sync with these evolving mainstream perceptions of the cosmos, he first proposed and then discarded the idea of an energy in empty space--a "cosmological constant"-- that would oppose gravity. The concept has flickered in and out of favor ever since. Today, the Big Bang vision of an expanding cosmos--with or without antigravity to accelerate the expansion--has gained wide acceptance. Scientists are focused on refining the details of the first trillionth of a second of the Bang. The result is a theory that seems to explain how titanic walls of galaxies and their numberless populations of stars, planets, dust, rubble, black holes and at least one colony of living creatures began some 12 or 14 billion years ago as unbelievably minuscule quantum fluctuations in a wildly inflating primordial stew of subatomic particles. "The great achievement of the 20th century is tracing the history of the universe back to quark soup," said astrophysicist Michael Turner of the Fermilab in Chicago. (Quarks are elementary particles.) As it turns out, he added, the emergent evidence of a universe all yeasty with negative gravity works well with the geometries, weights, measures and pressures of this widely favored Big Bang model. The Perlmutter-Schmidt discovery "is really, truly wonderful," he said. "It made everything fit together. . . . The bonus is that we get a new puzzle to think about: What exactly is this dark energy?" Since the 1930s, experiments have shown that "empty" space actually seethes with energy in the form of ghostly "virtual" particles that flit in and out of existence and can even exert measurable force on metal laboratory plates. Physicists might naturally conclude that this small-scale effect is the same one that Perlmutter and others are measuring cumulatively at cosmic scales. But there is a serious disconnect: If the effect were really as large as conventional calculations dictate, "the space between your eyes and your hand would expand so rapidly that the light from your hand would never reach your eyes," said Lawrence Krauss of Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. He called this discrepancy "the most perplexing quantitative puzzle in physics today." Whatever it is, it seems the energy in the vacuum will not reverse the course of a falling apple, drive an inflating wedge of nothingness between lovers, affect suburban traffic patterns or propel spacecraft. It doesn't act locally (for practical purposes). In contrast to ordinary gravity, which diminishes with the distance between objects, the putative energy in empty space grows with distance, pumping up space itself--in effect, manufacturing more space--across billions of light-years. It strengthens as the galaxies thin out and gravity weakens. Among the many puzzles kicked up in the antigravity speculation is a seeming coincidence of timing. The findings suggest that we are living at the one and only time in all of cosmic evolution when the collective gravitational pull and the opposing push of antigravity are roughly balanced. As an alternative to such a bizarre happenstance, some physicists have proposed that the antigravity energy is not constant, as Einstein initially conceived it, but is a "quintessence" that varies its density from one epoch to the next. Of course, some hold out hope that the case for antigravity is proved false. On this rosy evening in his cluttered workspace at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Perlmutter was consumed with just that question--and with the thermonuclear monsters (nicknamed for composers) that first lured him to this quest and now have taken over his life. "A 400 percent increase in Chopin? Wow!" he said into the phone, pacing, talking fast. "You're sure it's not a cosmic ray? Doesn't it look ridiculously sharp?" Ravel "is making me nervous," he added, but Debussy was promising. Tiny splotches in the glow of the computer screen, the stellar explosions appeared harmless enough. But each, to some degree, fit the profile of a star that--unlike the one blazing outside his window--had just been obliterated in one of the most violent events known. It is in the light from these remote cataclysms that his team and the Schmidt group detect the evidence of energy at work in the void. By comparing the distances of the explosions with the stretch in the light of their home galaxies, the researchers can calculate how fast the universe was expanding at different times in its history. Studying how that rate has varied should tell them something about the constancy of the antigravity energy--and how it has interacted with gravity over time. Because these stellar bombs detonate with about the same mass, astronomers reasoned, they should reach about the same inherent luminosity--each releasing energies equal to thousands of billions of Hiroshimas. With their actual brightness known, the observers could then tell from their apparent brightness how far away they are. This--and the fact that they are powerful enough to be detected across great distances--makes them prime "standard candles" for the tricky task of measuring cosmic distances and studying other fundamental cosmic properties. "It's amazing what you can do with exploding stars," Perlmutter said. The more distant the supernova, for example, the "wider" the light curve (brightening and dimming) looks on a graph, said Gerson Goldhaber, also at the Berkeley lab, a gray-beard particle physicist on the team. Why the difference? Space itself has expanded as the explosion progresses, increasing the distance between here and there. "It's a direct view of the expansion of the universe," Goldhaber said. He held up a graphic showing the light curve of a remote supernova overlaid on that of a nearby one. "When you remove the expansion and stretching of space, the curves match." On this night, pushing hard to test and refine his data, Perlmutter was in the midst of the demanding kind of observing run required to capture these random outbursts more than halfway across the charted universe--a technique he pioneered. It meant orchestrating a precision-timed, international operation that photographed thousands of deep-space galaxies--each containing hundreds of billions of stars--in search of faint trills of light that hadn't been there three weeks earlier and would soon fade. Human eyes could no more pick out the new supernovas than they could identify one new grain of sand on a beach. These hunters rely on technologies that weren't available a few years ago: half a dozen of the world's most advanced telescopes and, at crucial points, the orbiting Hubble Space Telescope; ultrasensitive light detectors, specially tailored software, and data flowing rapidly through vast Internet hookups. But culling useful supernovas from the murk, and discarding impersonators such as asteroids, depends ultimately on rapid, expert judgments by human brains--what Perlmutter calls a "group intelligence." Isobel and Brenda, Reynald and Sebastien, at separate telescopes on a volcano in Hawaii, Brad in Arizona, others on a mountain in the Chilean Andes, and so on--all consulting with Perlmutter and operating in harried marathons that transcend time zones. At times, researchers Greg Aldering and Alex Conley milled around a table in Perlmutter's office, the three of them sorting through printouts of the supernova candidates and relevant vital statistics, debating which deserved further study. Were they too nearby to be useful? Too fuzzy? Too sharp to be real? The researchers were like judges in the strangest of beauty pageants. Perlmutter seems to be accelerating along with the runaway universe. Reed-thin, low-mass, with intense blue eyes behind glasses, his speech is soft and almost supernaturally fast. "My baud rate is a little high," he conceded with a grin during a late-night lull, his athletic left eyebrow arching archly. "But I think I've actually slowed down." When he first arrived at Berkeley, he recalled, somebody asked if he was on speed. ("I wasn't.") Unmarried and a self-described perfectionist, he makes time to play the violin with friends in string quartets. As a student, Perlmutter gravitated to adventurous mentors who were willing to jump the traditional lines. Trained as a particle physicist, and adept at computer programming, Perlmutter liked the idea of parachuting into astrophysics. "I just wanted to find out the mass density and fate of the universe. . . . It's one of the most fundamental questions I could imagine asking." And supernovas seemed to be the key. But no one had found a way to capture these random outbursts in useful numbers and analyze them before they dimmed. "I thought it would take maybe two or three years," Perlmutter said. "It was, in fact, 10 years later before we had our first definite results. . . . But I was hooked." In their initial phases, he and colleague Carl Pennypacker--rank interlopers from the physics establishment--ran into a barrage of skepticism among astronomers who controlled the telescopes. The team faced a Catch-22, Perlmutter said. "To get telescope time, you had to guarantee you would find a supernova. But to show we could find supernovas, we had to get time on a major telescope." By scanning thousands of galaxies at a throw, and timing the "before" and "after" images to coincide with the monthly dark of the moon, they found, they could catch fresh supernovas on the upsurge. Finally in 1994-95, all the pieces fell into place. Perlmutter phoned the official astronomical tracking bureau and warned: "In two weeks, I'm going to find a batch of new supernovas. We need to arrange a way to announce it." It seemed an outrageous claim at the time, he said with a grin, but the team delivered nine explosions right on schedule. "Nobody had ever guaranteed a supernova before on a specific date. Nobody'd ever even found more than one at a time." At this point, Goldhaber said, the technique looked impressive enough that it was adopted by some of the same astronomers who had been vocal critics earlier, such as supernova expert Robert Kirshner of the rival Schmidt group. The ebullient Kirshner retorted that he and other astronomers had not been criticizing so much as simply offering Perlmutter badly needed refinements in his approach. The rivalry extends from substance to style. While Perlmutter uses high-brow names from the classics for his explosions, Kirshner mischievously noted that the Schmidt group had gone the other way with its recent claim to have detected the most distant supernova yet--Dudley Do-Right. In any case, the two international collaborations (funded by the Department of Energy, the National Science Foundation and NASA) agree that having more than one outfit getting the same result has bolstered scientific confidence in the findings. Though their relations can get tense, the groups occasionally share data. As Perlmutter once joked, they have been in "remarkably violent agreement." Both teams are mindful that their their "discovery" could all be a misunderstanding. The scientific approach is useful in all aspects of life, Perlmutter mused at about 3:30 a.m. on the fourth night of the telescope run, because "it is about how to avoid fooling yourself." A scientist is obliged perpetually to ask himself "what would it look like if I'm wrong? If it does, and I am, I should say so." Accordingly, these researchers and others are laboring to rule out alternative explanations. Could some unknown type of dust cause the unexpected dimming in the supernova light? Or is there some alteration in the physics--the personalities-- of supernovas over billions of years that makes those exploding in the early universe weaker than closer ones in the mature cosmos? The answer lies in more and better data. "We still don't even understand the mechanism that makes these things explode," said Peter Nugent, the Berkeley team's young resident theorist. Perlmutter's ambitious "to-do" list includes the establishment of a supernova "factory," an automated telescope scan that will churn out specimens as if on an assembly line, by the hundreds. No one knows how this latest wrinkle in the emerging picture of nature will affect 21st century civilization. It seems unlikely that citizens of this era will find totally alien the notion that something repulsive is causing the pace of change to speed up. To some, the whole gaudy Big Bang construct sounds arbitrary and suspicious, fraught with weird coincidences and Zen-like paradoxes. It involves realms where our own senses, intuition and common sense seriously mislead us. Everything sprang from nothing, the scientists tell us. Mass and energy are interchangeable. Gravity bends light and can slow a clock. Black holes suck stuff out of the universe forever. Most of the mass in the universe remains unidentified. And now scientists have conjured some miasma of funny energy that thrives in emptiness and threatens cosmic domination. Understanding the riddle of the dark energy "will be one of the grand challenges for the millennium to come," says astrophysicist Neta Bahcall, of Princeton University. "If it's there, why is it there? What causes it? And how does it behave? Who knows what we'll learn from it." Pondering the Heavens There are three theoretical scenarios for the expansion of the universe: a rate that is constant (left), slowing down (center) or accelerating (right). The graphic shows how in each case a given region grows larger with time elapsed since the Big Bang. The supernova findings seem to favor the acceleration scenario, which yields a relatively older universe and one that will never collapse in a fiery "Big Crunch." Like ladybugs marching along a rubber band as it stretches, a wave of light moves through the expanding universe. The bugs move at the same fixed speed relative to the rubber beneath their feet, as indicated by the painted markers, so that their distance in inches increases in proportion to the stretch in the band. In similar fashion, the wavelength of light stretches with the expansion of space. Scientists ponder why the universe is so perfectly balanced gravitationally that it neither flew apart nor collapsed before the first stars or galaxies could form. They liken it to a pencil standing on its point: the slightest tipping, and it would immediately fall quickly in one direction or another. Recent supernova studies suggest that all the shining galaxies may play a minor role in this balancing act compared with an exotic form of energy -- a reverse gravity -- in empty space. An image of a patch of sky, compared with the same patch taken three weeks earlier, reveals the presence of a newly bursting supernova. Powerful computers rapidly count the particles of light in each image and subtract the first image from the second to cull a supernova blossoming amid the field of stars. Researchers use these powerful thermonuclear explosions to study fundamental properties of the universe. SOURCES: "The Inflationary Universe," Scientific American, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 10:59:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06368; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:57:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:57:57 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:49:02 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Uban Message-Id: <200003291849.NAA05163 world.std.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: re: Jed's OFF TOPIC Statement from RSA Labs FAQ etc. Resent-Message-ID: <"x2MgW3.0.OZ1.q8buu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, Why don't you use a newsgroup like sci.crypt, which deals with these sorts of things, rather than bring them up off-topic on vortex? Tnx, Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 11:07:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22308; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:59:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:59:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000329185903.95262.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.154] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stuff from Eric Krieg Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:59:03 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"HqBAy1.0.RS5.UAbuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The laws of physics are bunk. >From: Jed Rothwell >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-L eskimo.com >Subject: Stuff from Eric Krieg >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:38:10 -0500 > >Here is stuff from Eric Krieg, who is a jerk, but sometimes an informative >jerk: > >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:40:01 -0500 >From: Eric Krieg >Reply-To: eric phact.org >To: free_energy onelist.com >Subject: free energy - BLP investigation, and skeptic bashing > >People, > >A new claimant at: > >http://www.singtech.com/contents.html > >I did get a list from Antony, it just didn't have phone numbers. > >I got through to Alfred Miller of Lehigh university. He knew of no one >doing calorimetry studies. He has done XPS studies on samples Mills gave >him. He's seen interesting things that are not easily explained - but is >very clear that it is still inconclusive. He doesn't poo poo this stuff >out of hand, but I gather that he is not convinced the laws of physics must >be rewritten either. I don't believe his skill areas overlap my own. So I >can't really conclude anything significant from his data. It doesn't >support Mills - but it doesn't prove him a fraud either. > >I also got through to another fellow: > >Chuck Haldeman has worked for Lincoln Labs and spent 2 -3 years trying to >get it up to the power levels Mills said. He only got 5 watts excess power >- That's taking a known power in from a power supply calibrated with HP >equipment (some of the time they ran pulsed power in). > >He says you have to subtract input power needed to electrolyze the light >water. He calculates that power from the volume of gas produced. (chance >for error?) He says others reviewed his work and found no trouble. He was >most forth-coming. He's not convinced that Mill's theory is correct, but >he does feel that there is proof of anomalous energy out. I for one do not >know if there is a prosaic chemical explanation of what is happening. It >sounded like he was very thorough about energy measurements and proper >calibration. He was never convinced that he saw evidence for the shrunken >hydrogen - what he saw using speed of sound, compressibility and other >tests appeared to be argon and another gas that he think leaked through >teflon. His company decided to abandon searching for ways to make it work >better. He did say it ran for weeks putting out consistent energy. It >ends up being a 1.5 degree heat flux from their cell that tells them the >energy levels. He says their ambient is consistent and that they calibrate > the relationship between energy output and temperature gradient by >running >resister heating. Haldeman is an older guy who says he has been following >what people call CF for some time. So far, this seems like the best >evidence for excess heat - but unfortunately it is not set up so I can't >take a trip down to see for myself. > >It's interesting to me that people are still selling free energy video >tapes promoting Dennis Lee's abandoned heat pump based design: > >http://lateralthinking.com/exclusive/free-energy.html#VIDFER > >I don't care for Gene Mallove - but he is a leading pro voice in FE - in >this missive, he bashes the senior skeptic on the subject: > > >(beginning of original message) > >Subject: Mallove reviews Park's Voodoo >From: editor infinite-energy.com (Eugene F. Mallove) >Date: 2000/03/16 >Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion > > >Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud . . . > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >. . . and so on, quoting Mallove and an uninteresting letter from me to >Krieg. Apparently Kreig believes the "senior skeptic" has credibility, >which proves yet again that no one is more gullible than a skeptic. Park >and Morrison skewer basic physics and confuse 650 and 1,500,000. Kreig is >such a patsy he goes along with them and he bashes Mallove instead! > >- Jed > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 11:21:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13046; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:18:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:18:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329141700.007ae6c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:17:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: re: Jed's OFF TOPIC Statement from RSA Labs FAQ etc. In-Reply-To: <200003291849.NAA05163 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wYALy2.0.lB3.qRbuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Uban wrote: > Why don't you use a newsgroup like >sci.crypt, which deals with these sorts of >things, rather than bring them up off-topic >on vortex? Tnx, Jim I did, but you know what? The responses here are better. Those folks have limited imaginations. Lottsa technical knowledge though . . . Note also that I clearly marked the heading "OFF TOPIC" to facilitate message filtering for people who want to stay strictly ON TOPIC. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 11:35:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17699; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:28:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:28:15 -0800 Message-Id: <200003291928.OAA02698 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Stuff from Eric Krieg Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:19:45 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA17616 Resent-Message-ID: <"SUkgo2.0.OK4.Fbbuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: >Here is stuff from Eric Krieg, who is a jerk, but sometimes an informative >jerk: He is a complete jerk who sometimes purveys elements of the turth, but you cannot tell what is what from him, so my bottom line is that he is a "complete jerk" -- a whiny one at that. > > >I also got through to another fellow: > >Chuck Haldeman has worked for Lincoln Labs and spent 2 -3 years trying to >get it up to the power levels Mills said. He only got 5 watts excess power >- That's taking a known power in from a power supply calibrated with HP >equipment (some of the time they ran pulsed power in). Why didn't Krieg ask him the input power?!! Hint: It might be that he got at least 10/1, for example. I know more than I can say right now -- NDA :) > >He says you have to subtract input power needed to electrolyze the light >water. He calculates that power from the volume of gas produced. (chance >for error?) NO!!!! He measured input power electrically, obviously, but confirmed lack of recombination as an issue. >He says others reviewed his work and found no trouble. That is damn right. > He was >most forth-coming. He's not convinced that Mill's theory is correct, but >he does feel that there is proof of anomalous energy out. He is 100% certain. >I for one do not >know if there is a prosaic chemical explanation of what is happening. There is none and will be none. Krieg just does not understand science or basic orders of magnitude. >It >sounded like he was very thorough about energy measurements and proper >calibration. He was never convinced that he saw evidence for the shrunken >hydrogen - what he saw using speed of sound, compressibility and other >tests appeared to be argon and another gas that he think leaked through >teflon. His company decided to abandon searching for ways to make it work >better. It was not a company. It was MIT Lincoln Laboratory, and you and I paid for the research. Unfortunately, because of people like Krieg we don't get to see that research. It's too sensitive! Why Krieg's great hero, Park, might end up attacking Lincoln Lab -- wouldn't want that to happen now, would we? > He did say it ran for weeks putting out consistent energy. It >ends up being a 1.5 degree heat flux from their cell that tells them the >energy levels. He says their ambient is consistent and that they calibrate > the relationship between energy output and temperature gradient by running >resister heating. Haldeman is an older guy who says he has been following >what people call CF for some time. He has three MIT degrees in Aero/Astro engineering -- same Dept as mine (Course XVI), but I only have two degrees from the place‹ and Dr. Haldeman was a senior staff member at the aeronautical research facility at MIT. Degrees don't make anyone right about something, but basic openness and proper analysis do‹ commodities that Kreig lacks. He fancies himself some kind of impartial evaluator of what is going on in FE/CF. He is nothing of the kind. >So far, this seems like the best >evidence for excess heat - but unfortunately it is not set up so I can't >take a trip down to see for myself. If it were set up, Krieg wouldn't know his ass from his elbow about evaluating it. > >It's interesting to me that people are still selling free energy video >tapes promoting Dennis Lee's abandoned heat pump based design: > >http://lateralthinking.com/exclusive/free-energy.html#VIDFER > >I don't care for Gene Mallove - but he is a leading pro voice in FE - in >this missive, he bashes the senior skeptic on the subject: Damn straight, Krieg! I was quite precise in my critique of Park. If Krieg still thinks Park has anything of value to say about CF or new energy, Krieg is exactly what I think he is. Park spent 12 mintues -- max -- at the 2 hour APS session on cold fusion on 3/20/00. I suspect he came just to collect an impression of me, then he left. > > >(beginning of original message) > >Subject: Mallove reviews Park's Voodoo >From: editor infinite-energy.com (Eugene F. Mallove) >Date: 2000/03/16 >Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion > > >Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud . . . > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >. . . and so on, quoting Mallove and an uninteresting letter from me to >Krieg. Apparently Kreig believes the "senior skeptic" has credibility, >which proves yet again that no one is more gullible than a skeptic. Park >and Morrison skewer basic physics and confuse 650 and 1,500,000. Kreig is >such a patsy he goes along with them and he bashes Mallove instead! > >- Jed Gene Mallove > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 12:35:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08890; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:33:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:33:17 -0800 Message-ID: <006c01bf99bd$f9116a40$1a85883e ajatkgaw> From: "Magic Kent" To: References: <001701bf9985$35963600$5d441d26 fjsparber> Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:51:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Tf5su3.0.2A2.CYcuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Connect the two electrodes in the water to a 12 volt supply ...... something capable of supplying 4 amps ...... you may be surprised !. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance > To: Vortex > > Drew ~ 250 milliliters of softened well water (100 ft. private well) from the tap. > > Initial resistance of ~ 1.0 cm depth in SS sauce pan 30 k-ohm scale on digital meter 6.0Kohms. > > Brought to boil on electric heating elemen for ~ 2.0 minutes; 14 K-ohms > > Cooled by setting pan in large pan a room temp; ~11.0 K-ohms > > Set to cool and Monitor: > > 10 minutes 12 K-ohms > > 12 minutes 16 K-ohms > > 14 minutes 12 K-ohms > > 16 Minutes 12 K-ohms > > 18 Minutes 12.8 K-ohms > > 20 Minutes 14.0 K-ohms > > 30 Minutes 14.6 K-ohms > > What did boiling chase out of the water? > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 12:56:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12832; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:45:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:45:57 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:00:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Statement from RSA Labs FAQ Resent-Message-ID: <"GI4v63.0.M83.4kcuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>The Vernam cycpher has the disadvantage of (extremely) limiting the amount >>of information that can be sent without a courrier run or return to base. > >That is hard to believe in this era of cheap, hand-held 50 GB disks and DAT >tapes. I guess the data sets expand to fit the media allotted. Do you >suppose they are transmitting high-res videoconferencing from under the sea? OH, yeah, I guess it is the ULF that is so extremely limiting isn't it. At one time bulk data was stored on 1600 bpi tape and that was realtively limiting. > >I use a portable 20 GB USB connected hard disk for backup these days. It >weighs . . . 1.3 kg. Amazing. Yes, for sure to us oldies. Just 10 years ago I did an install of a single IBM 3380 drive that weighed over 400 lbs, and was belt driven. It was in a huge steel cabinet on raised floor, with big 240 V power cables. The controller was in a separate box about the same size. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 12:57:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19144; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:55:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:55:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:09:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Resent-Message-ID: <"zu_QI1.0._g4.5tcuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would suggest keeping a control liquid around to check for coating of the electrodes. Electrolysis coats the electrodes, and changing the water temp might change the thickness of the electrode coating even as you measure the resistance. By swapping the electrodes back and forth with a control liquid you can esitmate the effect of coating. If you just leave the electrodes in water, while continually measuring resistance, you will see the resistance slowly vary. It would interesting to correlate resistance with time of day the phases of the moon. 8^( Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 14:45:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17905; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:41:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:41:40 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:46:47 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Please..Much cuts.. Notes A Few Questions Gravity cap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"b3YtO3.0.cN4.YQeuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, MUCH cuts... Well....4 questions maybe... I always have some trouble figuring who is who with these threads. Below someone write about a paper... I am trying to find out if anyone knows what paper is being referred to.. SO: Please see FLAG... On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> My reaction: as described, this cannot > >> produce thrust, and sounds like someone jumped the gun and sent out his > >> April Fool's hoax a few days early. > > ______________---FLAG ---________________ > >This was my reaction to the original paper ca. 1991. It is a HUGE amount > >of work for something that might be a joke. The original author > >reportedly died years ago, but dead hoaxers aren't any different than live > >ones. I did find a source of tin foil (a dental supply house), but I > >never had the ambition to build the capacitor. Now I have to get my tin > >back from the guy I loaned it to. > > Q: Who is the author? Q: What is the paper, and where published? Q: Can we get a copy? ------ cuts ------- > > ***{Was the description clear enough so you can be sure of that? I was > assuming that the wax paper (or plastic, or whatever) layers were larger in > diameter than the foil layers, and that they did not have the starfish > shaped hole cut in the center, but rather a much smaller, circular one. The > reason was twofold: (a) such an assumption matches the diagram from the > original design, on your website (see your Fig. 1); and (b) it seemed > Q: What web site? __________ Above.... FLAG _________________________ > >it to be a hoax, on the grounds that it theoretically makes no sense? But > >think for a moment: CAPACITORS WHICH PRODUCE LARGE CONTINUOUS THRUST MAKE > >NO SENSE, at least according to mainstream physics. NOTE: Modern Physics admits it does not have a complete set of answers related to the electron ... in the following general contex... a] Charge... and mass b] Mass and REST Mass c] Rest mass and Charge. Well... it might, and I am the first to admit I am not the best particle physics person ... PPP! If anyone has a SIMPLE answer to this general mystery please let me know. I am looking for the experiment which proves out ... or not... the simple answer... if there is one. I will be grateful for any opportunity to broaden my foundations. Thank you J > Anonymous reports > >are a form of weak anecdotal evidence. Photographs won't be much > >stronger. Only a successful replication will be convincing (yet an > >UNsuccessful replication doesn't prove the claim to be a hoax, any more > >than Pons/Fleichman were proved to be hoaxers.) > > > > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > __________________________________ > "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are > dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, > they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never > denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big > deal?" --Jed Rothwell > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 15:12:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27113; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:10:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:10:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329180912.00790cf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:09:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC: three small helpful reference books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"IGcnR3.0.Yd6.breuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For long time I have been meeting to write a brief review in the magazine of three little books. These three reference books are the among most helpful ones I know. They were published in the 1950s and are still in print today. Unfortunately, they have nothing to do with cold fusion so I suppose there is no place for them in the magazine. I'll describe them here, and bother the folks who didn't want to hear about cryptography either. D. Huff, "How to Lie with Statistics," (W. W. Norton, 1954), 142 pages. This charming, cynical little book exposes many of the cheap tricks, bogus analyses, and cunning deceptions employed by Madison Avenue, politicians, corporate PR departments and -- goodness gracious, dare we admit it? -- scientists. I am not much good at mathematics but after reading this book at a tender age I never forgot the definitions of average, median, bias, error rate, causality and correlation. The book shows several ways to plot a deceptive graph. It shows how to select a biased sample, and how to take meaningless, small, random fluctuations and blow them up to look like a trend -- a skill that many cold fusion scientists have polished into a fine art. The book may seem a little subversive, but you should remember, as the author puts it, "the crooks already know these tricks; honest men must learn them in self-defense." C. N. Parkinson, "Parkinson's Law," (Ballantine, 1957), 140 pages. Another charming, cynical little book. This is an essential guide to the dynamics of large organizations such as corporations, universities, armies and governments. Parkinson's first law is, "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion." The number of people employed by the British colonial office grew in inverse proportion to the number of colonies and the actual amount of work required to administer them. From 1935 to 1954, the employee count grew from 372 to 1661, reaching a peak after the dissolution of the British Empire, long after the actual tasks and purpose had evaporated. Another chapter describes the Law of Triviality at budget meetings: "the time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse proportion to the sum involved." Let me updating Parkinson's example for inflation: a $100 million allocation for a new factory will sail through because committee members do not understand the details, and they do not have the confidence to challenge the experts who drafted the plan. A proposal to spend $23,500 on a new shed in the parking lot will generate 45 minutes of spirited discussion, which may or may not result in the savings of $3,000, because everyone knows about parking lots and sheds, and people feel they have a right to opinion about them. The next item on the agenda, $570 for coffee during staff meetings, "will occupy the members for an hour and a quarter, and they will end by asking the Secretary to procure further information, leaving the matter to be decided at the next meeting." Parkinson, like Machiavelli, describes men as they are, not as we might wish them to be. As for other books on these topics, I agree with Parkinson's evaluation: "Heaven forbid that students should cease to read books on the science of public or business administration -- provided only that these works are classified as fiction. Placed between the novels of Rider Haggard and H. G. Wells, intermingled with volumes about ape men and space ships, these textbooks could harm no one." W. Strunk, E. B. White, "The Elements of Style," (Allyn and Bacon, 1979), 92 pages. Charming but not cynical. The best guide to writing. Let me quote the Boston Globe review: "no book in shorter space, with fewer words, will help any writer more than this persistent little volume." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 15:43:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03341; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:39:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:39:35 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:44:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "R. Wormus" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: WATER CAP?? A truly scientific approach (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qfQLT.0.-p.qGfuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, What is a "water capacitor" On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, R. Wormus wrote: > Hello, > Maybe one of the vorts has an asswer to Carls question? > Ron > > *** Forwarded message, originally written by Carl Lennon lennon digital.net on 28-Mar-00 *** > > Hi Roger and Ron, > As you recall,I submitted a question to the Mad Scientist Network. The question was asking for an explanation of why is there a difference in the charging rate of a small water capacator with polarity. The question made it past the review board so I th ought I might get an answer. > > I think that you will get a kick out of this professional scientists response to my question. > Carl > > > Subject: Why does the charging rate of a small water capacitor vary > with polarity? > > >> Carl writes after receiving first non-response: > > Thanks for considering my question, > > I think your analysis of why the resistance varies with time is probably > correct; however it does not explain why it the time required to reach a > specified resistance varies with polarity. Both of the capacitor plates > are made of the same material. > > In regard to how I measured the 7 pF value. I used an HP Vector > Impedance meter. I measured the capacitive reactance at 90 mHz in polar > form and then calculated the value of the capacitor. > Thanks again, > Carl > > In a message dated 3/24/00 7:12:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, > www www.madsci.org writes: > > Carl, > Well, it seems to me an asymmetry is causing the problem. It may well be > more associated with whether the vector impedance meter itself has a > "floating" output. But the instrument you are using appears to be being > asked to perform beyond its design parameters. I simply wouldn't trust > anything from it. > > You see, 7 pf can come from the terminals and the wires leading to them alone. > > I would not pursue this further because I think it leads to a dead end. > > L. S. > > > *** End of forwarded message *** > > -- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 15:47:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05757; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:44:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:44:42 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: John Schnurer Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:43:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-1999 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Organization: LOCK+LOAD Subject: Re: WATER CAP?? A truly scientific approach (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA05718 Resent-Message-ID: <"uE4Zd2.0.tP1.fLfuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, In this case it was two plates with water as the dielectric. Ron On 29-Mar-00, John Schnurer wrote: JS> JS> JS> Dear Folks, JS> JS> What is a "water capacitor" JS> JS> JS> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, R. Wormus wrote: JS> JS>> Hello, JS>> Maybe one of the vorts has an asswer to Carls question? JS>> Ron JS>> JS>> *** Forwarded message, originally written by Carl Lennon lennon digital.net on 28-Mar-00 *** JS>> JS>> Hi Roger and Ron, JS>> As you recall,I submitted a question to the Mad Scientist Network. The question was asking for an explanation of why is there a difference in the charging rate of a small water capacator with polarity. The question made it past the review board so I thought I might get an answer. JS>> JS>> I think that you will get a kick out of this professional scientists response to my question. JS>> Carl JS>> JS>> JS>> Subject: Why does the charging rate of a small water capacitor vary JS>> with polarity? JS>> JS>>>> Carl writes after receiving first non-response: JS>> JS>> Thanks for considering my question, JS>> JS>> I think your analysis of why the resistance varies with time is probably JS>> correct; however it does not explain why it the time required to reach a JS>> specified resistance varies with polarity. Both of the capacitor plates JS>> are made of the same material. JS>> JS>> In regard to how I measured the 7 pF value. I used an HP Vector JS>> Impedance meter. I measured the capacitive reactance at 90 mHz in polar JS>> form and then calculated the value of the capacitor. JS>> Thanks again, JS>> Carl JS>> JS>> In a message dated 3/24/00 7:12:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, JS>> www www.madsci.org writes: JS>> JS>> Carl, JS>> Well, it seems to me an asymmetry is causing the problem. It may well be JS>> more associated with whether the vector impedance meter itself has a JS>> "floating" output. But the instrument you are using appears to be being JS>> asked to perform beyond its design parameters. I simply wouldn't trust JS>> anything from it. JS>> JS>> You see, 7 pf can come from the terminals and the wires leading to them alone. JS>> JS>> I would not pursue this further because I think it leads to a dead end. JS>> JS>> L. S. JS>> JS>> JS>> *** End of forwarded message *** JS>> JS>> -- JS>> JS> -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 17:09:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02931; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:06:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:06:09 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:20:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Resent-Message-ID: <"ryeLO2.0.ej.0Yguu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of the time of day and the phases of the moon, Happy Birthday Fred! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 18:13:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22879; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:11:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:11:40 -0800 Message-ID: <00a901bf99f5$70aebbc0$5d441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:09:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"bkJCr1.0.Mb5.QVhuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Horace Heffner To: Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Hey Thanks! And Happy Birthday to you too, Horace. :-) Regards, Frederick > Speaking of the time of day and the phases of the moon, Happy Birthday Fred! > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 18:21:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25327; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:17:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:17:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmic Driving Force Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:17:17 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000329183606.45442.qmail hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20000329183606.45442.qmail hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA25275 Resent-Message-ID: <"AquXM.0.ZB6.9bhuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:36:06 PST, David Dennard wrote: [snip] >Among the many puzzles kicked up in the antigravity speculation is a >seeming coincidence of timing. The findings suggest that we are living >at the one and only time in all of cosmic evolution when the collective >gravitational pull and the opposing push of antigravity are roughly >balanced. [snip] A bit too much of a coincidence for my liking. I put it to you that this implies that both "forces" are about "equal". Perhaps more to the point, the expansion force doesn't exist, and gravity is virtually irrelevant on a universal scale. The shape and progress of the universe is governed primarily by electrical and magnetic forces, not by gravity, or more accurately gravity just plays a "bit role". (See "The Big Bang Never Happened" by Eric J. Lerner). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 20:47:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA07611; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:44:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:44:51 -0800 Message-ID: <20000330044446.6143.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:44:46 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Info. from BLP website To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ZvcL3.0.rs1.2ljuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: > Also, pages 32 of http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf > contains a sketch of a " Gyrotron Plasma to Microwave to Electricity > Power Converter". Although this does not appear to be the > "solid state device" mentioned above, I would be interested in > any comments about how this device might function. Page 32 is a sketch without details of a gyrotron tube. A gyrotron is a microwave oscillator. A slightly relativistic annular electron beam spiraling in an axial magnetic field interacts unstably with an electromagnetic wave skimming along the inner surface of the tube metal wall. Gyrotrons are the only means presently avaliable to make high microwave power in the 30 GHz range and above. Gyrotrons take DC electric power and convert it into microwave power. The microwaves can be used to heat plasmas. Some tokamak plasmas are heated this way. However, I do not see how one can readily reverse the process to extract energy efficiently from a plasma and back into DC. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 21:30:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA20895; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:28:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:28:49 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Info. from BLP website Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:28:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000330044446.6143.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20000330044446.6143.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA20868 Resent-Message-ID: <"8dvB7.0.P65.HOkuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:44:46 -0800 (PST), Michael Schaffer wrote: [snip] >in the 30 GHz range and above. Gyrotrons take DC electric power and convert >it into microwave power. The microwaves can be used to heat plasmas. Some >tokamak plasmas are heated this way. However, I do not see how one can >readily reverse the process to extract energy efficiently from a plasma and >back into DC. [snip] Suppose one were to replace the electron current with an ion current? (Where the ions are extracted from a plasma, and lose kinetic energy to the microwaves in the process). What sort of a change in the microwave frequency might one expect for a negative ion with mass of about 1 amu? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 22:31:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA06457; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:29:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:29:25 -0800 Message-ID: <20000330062849.55776.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.142] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmic Driving Force Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:28:48 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2pwA53.0.ja1.4Hluu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, I agree with you. I don't agree with Perlmutter except to the point of the fudge factor and there an "anti-gravity" type action. But it is gravity causing the unaccounted for acceleration seen in Rubin's work as she clearly states as a possibility but one most physicists do not recognize. There is no anti-gravity. I have written to him several times trying to explain gravity powered relative density displacement is really what he is calling anti-gravity but to date have been ignored. There is acceleration but expansion is not an accurate term for an infinite gravity paradigm universe. And the acceleration is coming from the wobble, like Mandeville points to in his Vortex Tectonics. This wobble the third note of the cosmic chord and throws off the density wave seen in the dual radial arm pattern of the spiral galaxy, the hurricane, and the whirlpool. As seen on my splash page, the first known photo in our research of a whirlpool, this dual radial arm pattern is quite evident. The thrust seen in any electrostatic charge or thermonic opening of the void is gravity slamming that void shut or moving it to less density. Just like gravity slams the atmosphere together when lightning strikes. Just like gravity makes a bubble rise. And just like gravity propels light through fluid space. The constant is gravity. The speed is relative to density. That is how they slowed the speed of light down to 38 m.p.h. Just the fact that a whirlpool has never been built by man and tested in a scientific manner ought to throw up red flags all over the place. I haven't and never will understand why this has been ignored. I appreciate your comments. David Dennard The Gravity Paradigm http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: Robin van Spaandonk >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Cosmic Driving Force >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:17:17 +1000 > >On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:36:06 PST, David Dennard wrote: >[snip] > >Among the many puzzles kicked up in the antigravity speculation is a > >seeming coincidence of timing. The findings suggest that we are living > >at the one and only time in all of cosmic evolution when the collective > >gravitational pull and the opposing push of antigravity are roughly > >balanced. >[snip] >A bit too much of a coincidence for my liking. >I put it to you that this implies that both "forces" are about "equal". >Perhaps more to the point, the expansion force doesn't exist, and gravity >is >virtually irrelevant on a universal scale. The shape and progress of the >universe is governed primarily by electrical and magnetic forces, not by >gravity, or more accurately gravity just plays a "bit role". >(See "The Big Bang Never Happened" by Eric J. Lerner). >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 29 22:39:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA08852; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:36:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:36:43 -0800 Message-ID: <003701bf9a76$d75d5620$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:36:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"hfLeR2.0.BA2.xNluu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, There is a page on Jean-Louis's site at: http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/mmcgen.htm Both patents and an article, all in French are in a directory at: http://www.geocities.com/alcor17/OverUnit/patents/ One of the two recent Czech patents with Jaroslav Holy, who is apparently the head of the Czech nuclear research agency, are at: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=CZ284333&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD Too bad I don't know Czech--maybe somebody here does. This patent appears to improve on the earlier ones. The later French patent has interesting references. It refers to the European Nucell patent of Paul Brown, found at: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=EP0243149&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD as well as a peculiar British patent: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=GB763062&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD A NEW APPARATUS FOR CREATING AN ELECTRIC CURRENT Which appears to be claiming radiation and electrical output from by bombarding a powdered mixture of cobalt, cadmium, and phosphorus compounds with short waves while they are in a static magnetic field. In other words a sort of nuclear magnetic resonance... Strange... Fred >>Then there is the Meyer-Mace patent which claims OU from HF induction >>through a soft iron core resulting in isotopic transmutation (patent >[snip] >Hi Fred, > >Do you have anything more on this one? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 00:25:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA27809; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:24:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:24:11 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:23:46 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003701bf9a76$d75d5620$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> In-Reply-To: <003701bf9a76$d75d5620$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA27773 Resent-Message-ID: <"HosIW.0.Ro6.gymuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:36:00 -0800, Fred Epps wrote: >Hi Robin, > >There is a page on Jean-Louis's site at: > >http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/mmcgen.htm I dismissed this as soon as I saw it the first time. If Fe56 -> Fe54, what happens to the two missing neutrons? Then I thought, what happens if I transfer them to another nucleus? It turns out that Fe54 + Fe58 -> 2 x Fe56 + 2.8 MeV. This isn't the reaction stipulated on JL Naudin's web site, but at least it does yield energy (and neutrons don't mysteriously vanish). (Both Fe54 and Fe58 are present in small quantities in natural iron, Fe58 being the most scarce at 0.3%). Note also that neutrons do posses a magnetic moment, so at least they have a "handle", making this concept not totally absurd. (On average therefore 1 lb of iron would have as much energy as about 1000 lb of coal). The actual reaction purported in the patent is sheer nonsense. First the author confuses MeV with amu, then puts up a "strawman mass" for Fe56 (which is wrong), then claims that it is wrong, and the "real" mass is something else (which he also gets wrong). He then claims that the per nucleon mass differs from that of Fe54 by a certain amount (I didn't bother checking the difference), and that Fe56 can be converted to Fe54 by the addition of 105 eV, releasing two "free" neutrons. Note that the actual energy required to liberate two neutrons from Fe56 is more than 20 MeV (Fe56 is one of the most stable atoms). My conclusion: While the actual invention may do something out of the ordinary, it almost certainly doesn't work the way the author thinks it works. [snip] >One of the two recent Czech patents with Jaroslav Holy, who is apparently >the head of the Czech nuclear research agency, are at: > >http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=CZ284333&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD > >Too bad I don't know Czech--maybe somebody here does. This patent appears to >improve on the earlier ones. Yes, I agree, but still seems to produce two neutrons. (My Czech is as good as ever - non-existant ;). [snip] >as well as a peculiar British patent: > >http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=GB763062&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD >A NEW APPARATUS FOR CREATING AN ELECTRIC CURRENT > >Which appears to be claiming radiation and electrical output from by >bombarding a powdered mixture of cobalt, cadmium, and phosphorus compounds >with short waves while they are in a static magnetic field. In other words a >sort of nuclear magnetic resonance... >Strange... > >Fred This latter patent is actually almost the same as Brown's, in as much as both produce power from radioactive materials, while subjected to an oscillating magnetic field. The difference being only that in Brown's case the field oscillates as a consequence of the magnetic coil being part of a tank circuit, while in this case high frequency microwaves are used. (Note I already suggested to Paul last year that higher frequencies might result in a larger power output, and of course shorter lifetime). > > >>>Then there is the Meyer-Mace patent which claims OU from HF induction >>>through a soft iron core resulting in isotopic transmutation (patent >>[snip] >>Hi Fred, >> >>Do you have anything more on this one? (Sorry, I didn't realise which one it was). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 08:00:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12696; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:56:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:56:03 -0800 Message-ID: <006a01bf9ac4$ff150b60$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:55:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5P3F93.0.I63.Jatuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, > >I dismissed this as soon as I saw it the first time. If Fe56 -> Fe54, what >happens to the two missing neutrons? > >The actual reaction purported in the patent is sheer nonsense. I know next to nothing about nuclear physics, but I never thought the thing worked the way he said it did anyway. >My conclusion: While the actual invention may do something out of the >ordinary, it almost certainly doesn't work the way the author thinks it >works. Right.. >[snip] >>One of the two recent Czech patents with Jaroslav Holy, who is apparently >>the head of the Czech nuclear research agency, are at: >> >>http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=CZ284333&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD >> >>Too bad I don't know Czech--maybe somebody here does. This patent appears to >>improve on the earlier ones. > >Yes, I agree, but still seems to produce two neutrons. >(My Czech is as good as ever - non-existant ;). I can read the pictures :-) >[snip] >>as well as a peculiar British patent: >> >>http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=GB763062&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD >>A NEW APPARATUS FOR CREATING AN ELECTRIC CURRENT >> >>Which appears to be claiming radiation and electrical output from by >>bombarding a powdered mixture of cobalt, cadmium, and phosphorus compounds >>with short waves while they are in a static magnetic field. In other words a >>sort of nuclear magnetic resonance... >>Strange... >> >>Fred > >This latter patent is actually almost the same as Brown's, in as much as >both produce power from radioactive materials, while subjected to an >oscillating magnetic field. The difference being only that in Brown's case >the field oscillates as a consequence of the magnetic coil being part of a >tank circuit, while in this case high frequency microwaves are used. >(Note I already suggested to Paul last year that higher frequencies might >result in a larger power output, and of course shorter lifetime). I doubt that either Paul's or Meyer-Mace is nuclear, at least in the sense that it is nuclear energy being converted into the electricity. A version of the Hubbard coil without nuclear materials -- simply a set of solenoidal primary coils surrounding a single solenoidal secondary, all at resonance-- was tested in Denmark in the early 80s and was claimed to run at about 300 percent efficiency. There are a number of versions of this idea without radioactives as mentioned in another post-- the Coutier, Cater, and Perrigo devices. Like I said, I know very little about nukes but there do seem to be some problems with the nuclear explanation of the Paul Brown battery. The output would seem to require a LOT of radiation. Is this radiation seen on counters outside the battery? If not, then how is it absorbed by copper wire and steel and converted to an electric current? Why would particles at right angles to the current flow add to it? And if the particles do interact with the current through some Lorentz effect, then why is it necessary to use Brown and Hubbard's odd coil geometry? It seems that single or multiple coils wound directly around the sample would work better. In fact this arrangement is used in the Burke patents listed in the Brown US patent. Burke shows in his patent that a direct current from a battery through a coil around a radioactive rod is increased. There is no oscillation. He is more straightforward than Brown in his patents in saying he doesn't know why it works. I don't think we do either. The Burke patents can be seen at: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=US3409820&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD Regards, Fred > >> >> >>>>Then there is the Meyer-Mace patent which claims OU from HF induction >>>>through a soft iron core resulting in isotopic transmutation (patent >>>[snip] >>>Hi Fred, >>> >>>Do you have anything more on this one? >(Sorry, I didn't realise which one it was). > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 08:48:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31411; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:44:27 -0800 Message-ID: <38E38392.38C5 skylink.net> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:40:50 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Info. from BLP website References: <20000330044446.6143.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bR_tv1.0.ig7.gHuuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > George Holz wrote: > > Also, pages 32 of http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf > > contains a sketch of a " Gyrotron Plasma to Microwave to Electricity > > Power Converter". Although this does not appear to be the > > "solid state device" mentioned above, I would be interested in > > any comments about how this device might function. > > Page 32 is a sketch without details of a gyrotron tube. A gyrotron is a > microwave oscillator. A slightly relativistic annular electron beam spiraling > in an axial magnetic field interacts unstably with an electromagnetic wave > skimming along the inner surface of the tube metal wall. You could try some of these articles. They may not help much. There does not seem to be a clear understanding of this. "Negative-Mass Instability in a Layer of Electron Oscillators with Spreads in the Positions of the Guiding Centers and Velocities of the Particles", V.L. Bratman and A.V. Savilov, Tech Physics Vol39 No6 p602, Jun 1994. "Phase Mixing of Bunches and Decrease of Negative-Mass Instability Increments in Cyclotron Resonance Masers", V.L. Bratman and A.V. Savilov, Physics of Plasmas, Vol2 No2 p557, Feb 1995. "Negative-Mass Instability in Magnetron-Injection Guns", A.V. Savilov, Physics of Plasmas, Vol4 No6 p2276, Jun 1997. "Negative-Mass Instability and Cyclotron Radiation in a flow of Relativistic Electron Oscillators", V.L. Bratman and S.V. Samsonov, Soviet Phsyics Tech Physics, Vol36 No4 p462, Apr 1991. "Quasilinear Analysis of Loss-Cone Driven Weakly Relativistic Electron Cyclotron Maser Instability", L.F. Ziebell and P.H. Yoon, Physics of Plasmas, Vol2 No4 p1285, Apr 1995. "Relativistic Transverse Modulation Instability of Two Electron Cyclotron Waves", Kwang-Sup Yang, Journal of Plasma Physics, Vol55 No3 p327, 1996. "Absolute Instability in Finite Length Electron Cyclotron Maser Systems", A.T. Lin and P.K. Kaw, International Journal of Electronics, Vol72 No5&6 p887, 1992. "Effect of Longitudinal Space-Charge Waves of a Helical Relativistic Electron Beam on the Cyclotron Maser Instability", IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Vol20 No3 p149, Jun 1992. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 10:16:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05859; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:14:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:14:21 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006a01bf9ac4$ff150b60$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:11:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Resent-Message-ID: <"uAJXY.0.RR1.xbvuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > >The Burke patents can be seen at: > >http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=US3409820&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD > >Regards, >Fred ***{When I looked at the Burke patents on the above website, all I found was a pictorial diagram. Surely there is an accompanying narrative that explains what materials were used and how the thing works. If so, how do we get to it? --MJ}*** [snip] __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 10:51:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12496; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:47:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:47:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000330184648.48076.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [64.6.128.240] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmic Driving Force Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:46:48 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"dpSVu1.0.A33.15wuu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >But culling useful supernovas from the murk, and discarding >impersonators such as asteroids, depends ultimately on rapid, expert >judgments by human brains--what Perlmutter calls a "group >intelligence." Is it just me, or does this sound a little self-serving, ie throwing out all data which doesn't match the predictions because they must be something other than what they are looking for?? Adam ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 11:33:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24326; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:28:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:28:09 -0800 Message-ID: <20000330192731.42716.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.124] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmic Driving Force Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:27:31 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9a8cw.0.xx5.8hwuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Adam, Perlmutter is right about the fudge factor. Einstin's prediction of what had to be exact in the gravitational lens effect does not match the measurment. Einstein knew it and went back to working on the cosmological constant all his later days. As to this idea, I don't think trying to weigh the Universe is going to get any real answer. Nor will trying to see the edge of the universe or say the universe is expanding or contracting. An Infinite Universe can't expand or contract. Saying the universe has an edge defies mathmatics and is the same voodoo practiced by our ancestors thinking they saw or could see the edge of the Earth. Data, the latest data is "that scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs", says Dr. Vera Rubin. (see transcript at my website). Data, anyone that says science already understands the basic fundamental is saying, "garbage", recently published by Dr. Stephen Hawking. Data, the Hubble is changing science as we know it. No longer is know it all scientific dogma based on unproven Einstein Theory acceptable. Get used to it. Data, the very latest from the Chandra X-Ray telescope backs up my work and the gravity paradigm. See Discover Magazine, April, R&D, "In The Beginning, All Was Blackness", page 16. We are almost one hundred years down a dead end road of pollution thanks to know it all scientific dogma based on unproven Einstein Theory. It's a fact. This planet stinks. David >From: "Adam Cox" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Cosmic Driving Force >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:46:48 CST > > >>But culling useful supernovas from the murk, and discarding >>impersonators such as asteroids, depends ultimately on rapid, expert >>judgments by human brains--what Perlmutter calls a "group >>intelligence." > >Is it just me, or does this sound a little self-serving, ie throwing out >all >data which doesn't match the predictions because they must be something >other than what they are looking for?? > >Adam >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 12:17:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07322; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:14:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:14:58 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:14:49 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance In-Reply-To: <001701bf9985$35963600$5d441d26 fjsparber> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Nvtxj1.0.Ko1.2Nxuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Did you have any corrosion on the ohmmeter leads? Hank On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > To: Vortex > > Drew ~ 250 milliliters of softened well water (100 ft. private well) from the tap. > > Initial resistance of ~ 1.0 cm depth in SS sauce pan 30 k-ohm scale on digital meter 6.0Kohms. > > Brought to boil on electric heating elemen for ~ 2.0 minutes; 14 K-ohms > > Cooled by setting pan in large pan a room temp; ~11.0 K-ohms > > Set to cool and Monitor: > > 10 minutes 12 K-ohms > > 12 minutes 16 K-ohms > > 14 minutes 12 K-ohms > > 16 Minutes 12 K-ohms > > 18 Minutes 12.8 K-ohms > > 20 Minutes 14.0 K-ohms > > 30 Minutes 14.6 K-ohms > > What did boiling chase out of the water? > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 13:01:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19437; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:54:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:54:37 -0800 Message-ID: <002b01bf9a92$510ef260$9b441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:52:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"GQlpP3.0.cl4.Byxuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: hank scudder To: Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Hank, No. The negative "Cathode" lead is attached to the SS saucepan (7.125 inches dia) and the positive "Anode" lead is touched to the top center of the ~ 1.0 cm depth pool of water in the pan. The same pan was rinsed and used for each measurement. The conductivity, rho = Resistance*Area/Depth was also calculated. Granted the CO2 in the softened well water creates the Bicarbonate, NaHCO3: Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2 <---> 2 Na+ + 2 HCO3- I was still surprised a the large increase in resistance effected by heat or mechanical agitation of the tap water. In the Positrino-Negatrino Theory, whether they they are 0.2 ev mass/energy made by Solar Infrared insolation on the oceans/surface water or 27.2 ev mass/energy made by Solar-Helium EUV in the upper ionosphere/ozone layer, and brought down by precipitation they could be attached to water molecules: (-)H2O + H2O(+) <---> (-)H2O(+) + H2O They can also attach to O2; (+)O-O(-) So which is it? :-) Either way it points to the drastic change in the properties of the water used in the O/U experiments, and suggests using pressurized CO2 as a cover gas in the experiments. Regards, Frederick > Frederick > Did you have any corrosion on the ohmmeter leads? > > Hank > > On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > To: Vortex > > > > Drew ~ 250 milliliters of softened well water (100 ft. private well) from the tap. > > > > Initial resistance of ~ 1.0 cm depth in SS sauce pan 30 k-ohm scale on digital meter 6.0Kohms. > > > > Brought to boil on electric heating elemen for ~ 2.0 minutes; 14 K-ohms > > > > Cooled by setting pan in large pan a room temp; ~11.0 K-ohms > > > > Set to cool and Monitor: > > > > 10 minutes 12 K-ohms > > > > 12 minutes 16 K-ohms > > > > 14 minutes 12 K-ohms > > > > 16 Minutes 12 K-ohms > > > > 18 Minutes 12.8 K-ohms > > > > 20 Minutes 14.0 K-ohms > > > > 30 Minutes 14.6 K-ohms > > > > What did boiling chase out of the water? > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 14:27:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18129; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:24:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:24:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000330171610.00827100 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:16:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance In-Reply-To: <002b01bf9a92$510ef260$9b441d26 fjsparber> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Zvu2_3.0.UQ4.UGzuu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:52 PM 3/30/00 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: hank scudder >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 12:14 PM >Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance > >Hank, > >No. The negative "Cathode" lead is attached to the SS saucepan (7.125 inches dia) >and the positive "Anode" lead is touched to the top center of the ~ 1.0 cm depth pool >of water in the pan. The same pan was rinsed and used for each measurement. > >The conductivity, rho = Resistance*Area/Depth was also calculated. > >Granted the CO2 in the softened well water creates the Bicarbonate, NaHCO3: > >Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2 <---> 2 Na+ + 2 HCO3- > >I was still surprised a the large increase in resistance effected by heat or mechanical >agitation >of the tap water. > >In the Positrino-Negatrino Theory, whether they they are 0.2 ev mass/energy made by >Solar Infrared insolation on the oceans/surface water or 27.2 ev mass/energy made by >Solar-Helium EUV in the upper ionosphere/ozone layer, and brought down by precipitation >they could be attached to water molecules: > >(-)H2O + H2O(+) <---> (-)H2O(+) + H2O > >They can also attach to O2; (+)O-O(-) > >So which is it? :-) > >Either way it points to the drastic change in the properties of the water used in the O/U >experiments, >and suggests using pressurized CO2 as a cover gas in the experiments. > >Regards, Frederick >> Frederick Actually, the conduction/polarization and transconduction properties of water of well known, and there are no new ones as you suggest. Furthermore, the cold fusion experiments have nothing to do with the non-existent spabarinos. The role of CO2 in water conduction is well known, and its role in cold fusion is developing. If you actually calculated the 4-vectors, and/or examined the literature of water/ice, you might have better understood the red herring of your hypotheses. Mitchell Swartz >> Did you have any corrosion on the ohmmeter leads? >> >> Hank >> >> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> > To: Vortex >> > >> > Drew ~ 250 milliliters of softened well water (100 ft. private well) from the tap. >> > >> > Initial resistance of ~ 1.0 cm depth in SS sauce pan 30 k-ohm scale on digital meter >6.0Kohms. >> > >> > Brought to boil on electric heating elemen for ~ 2.0 minutes; 14 K-ohms >> > >> > Cooled by setting pan in large pan a room temp; ~11.0 K-ohms >> > >> > Set to cool and Monitor: >> > >> > 10 minutes 12 K-ohms >> > >> > 12 minutes 16 K-ohms >> > >> > 14 minutes 12 K-ohms >> > >> > 16 Minutes 12 K-ohms >> > >> > 18 Minutes 12.8 K-ohms >> > >> > 20 Minutes 14.0 K-ohms >> > >> > 30 Minutes 14.6 K-ohms >> > >> > What did boiling chase out of the water? >> > >> > Regards, Frederick >> > >> > >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 15:26:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21806; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:23:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:23:49 -0800 Message-ID: <005301bf9aa0$24f9f8b0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <20000330044446.6143.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> <38E38392.38C5@skylink.net> Subject: Re: Info. from BLP website Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:31:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"yn8FS2.0.YK5.48-uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to Robert Stirniman, Michael Schaffer and Robin van Spaandonk for their comments in response to my question about the BLP gyrotron reference. I have located a nice technical summary, "Gyrotron Oscillators and Amplifiers" from the MIT Plasma Science and Fusion Center starting at: http://www2.psfc.mit.edu/wab/introgyro.html - >From the MIT site: A typical gyrotron oscillator consists of a magnetron injection gun (MIG) followed by an open-cavity resonator. The MIG generates an annular electron beam which is focussed into the resonator along an axial magnetic field. The RF field in the cavity region interacts with the orbital cyclotron motion of electrons in the beam and convert the transverse kinetic energy into RF output. The mechanism of gyrotron energy extraction is phase bunching of the electrons in the transverse direction. Michael wrote: >However, I do not see how one can >readily reverse the process to extract energy efficiently from a plasma >and back into DC. Robin wrote: >Suppose one were to replace the electron current with an ion current? >(Where the ions are extracted from a plasma, and lose kinetic energy to the >microwaves in the process). What sort of a change in the microwave >frequency might one expect for a negative ion with mass of about 1 amu? - We could compensate for the heavier hydrino by raising the H field and accepting a lower frequency, but how would one go about extracting the energetic hydrinos from the plasma? And what about all the energy lost through collisions with the other plasma constituents. It seems to me that there would be plenty of energetic electrons present in the plasma from EUV excitation of the hydrogen, but what kind of self organizing system would result in significant microwave output? Can some maser like effect be used? Like Michael, I don't see how to get electrical energy out of this system efficiently. How about a wide bandgap semiconductor photocell excited by the soft xray or hydrogen EUV emission? Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > "Absolute Instability in Finite Length Electron Cyclotron Maser > Systems", A.T. Lin and P.K. Kaw, International Journal of Electronics, > Vol72 No5&6 p887, 1992. > > "Effect of Longitudinal Space-Charge Waves of a Helical Relativistic > Electron Beam on the Cyclotron Maser Instability", IEEE Transactions > on Plasma Science, Vol20 No3 p149, Jun 1992. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 17:13:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25890; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:11:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:11:52 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:17:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "R. Wormus" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: WATER CAP simple scientific In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-YQfa2.0.NK6.Mj_uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, The effect observed is the double layer capacitor effect in electrolytic cells. The effect is EXTREMELY sensitive to just about any thing you can dream up.... polarity is and has always been an issue in these types of cells.... as little as 5000 A units thick of material difference on one plater VS the other will show a change. This is about a wave length of visible light This sensitivity is the reason most conductivity measuring instruments are reversing polarity lock in amplifier, sometimes called phase sensitive detectors, provided along with stirring. J On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, R. Wormus wrote: > John, > In this case it was two plates with water as the dielectric. > Ron > > On 29-Mar-00, John Schnurer wrote: > JS> > JS> > JS> Dear Folks, > JS> > JS> What is a "water capacitor" > JS> > JS> > JS> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, R. Wormus wrote: > JS> > JS>> Hello, > JS>> Maybe one of the vorts has an asswer to Carls question? > JS>> Ron > JS>> > JS>> *** Forwarded message, originally written by Carl Lennon lennon digital.net on 28-Mar-00 *** > JS>> > JS>> Hi Roger and Ron, > JS>> As you recall,I submitted a question to the Mad Scientist Network. The question was asking for an explanation of why is there a difference in the charging rate of a small water capacator with polarity. The question made it past the review board so I thought I might get an answer. > JS>> > JS>> I think that you will get a kick out of this professional scientists response to my question. > JS>> Carl > JS>> > JS>> > JS>> Subject: Why does the charging rate of a small water capacitor vary > JS>> with polarity? > JS>> > JS>>>> Carl writes after receiving first non-response: > JS>> > JS>> Thanks for considering my question, > JS>> > JS>> I think your analysis of why the resistance varies with time is probably > JS>> correct; however it does not explain why it the time required to reach a > JS>> specified resistance varies with polarity. Both of the capacitor plates > JS>> are made of the same material. > JS>> > JS>> In regard to how I measured the 7 pF value. I used an HP Vector > JS>> Impedance meter. I measured the capacitive reactance at 90 mHz in polar > JS>> form and then calculated the value of the capacitor. > JS>> Thanks again, > JS>> Carl > JS>> > JS>> In a message dated 3/24/00 7:12:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, > JS>> www www.madsci.org writes: > JS>> > JS>> Carl, > JS>> Well, it seems to me an asymmetry is causing the problem. It may well be > JS>> more associated with whether the vector impedance meter itself has a > JS>> "floating" output. But the instrument you are using appears to be being > JS>> asked to perform beyond its design parameters. I simply wouldn't trust > JS>> anything from it. > JS>> > JS>> You see, 7 pf can come from the terminals and the wires leading to them alone. > JS>> > JS>> I would not pursue this further because I think it leads to a dead end. > JS>> > JS>> L. S. > JS>> > JS>> > JS>> *** End of forwarded message *** > JS>> > JS>> -- > JS>> > JS> > -- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 17:17:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27285; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:14:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:19:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The right whirl... In-Reply-To: <20000308205911.89985.qmail hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6v-Qg3.0.Cg6.Rl_uu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y Dear Folks, and DD., I am trying to arrive at a simple description of the approximate ratio of shape and an easy to understand and build first step. I do not have www access but was able to borrow time on a machine which does have www capability. So, please guide us on the low cost and cheerful test [s] a] We start with a shallow container, say 4 feet diameter, 18 inch wall from floor of tank to top of tank. b] There is a central round opening, 1.5 inches. This opening is a 1.5 inch plastic PVC pipe connector and 1.5 inch PVC fittings and valves are used through out the set c] We put water in by filling with regular tap water from a garden hose to a depth of 9 inches, this is 1/3 full. \ Which way will the water flow out and why? The water is allowed to become still by allowing to sit, with the vale [s] s On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, David Dennard wrote: > Like I have been saying and like Michael has just come out with in his most > exceptional work, is that the wobble of the vortex has been misunderstood, > overlooked, dismissed, call it what you want. > > It has been in the perceptual blind spot of science it seems. And not just > in the vortex but in all spinning objects, especially how it relates to the > energy of motion of the Universe. Finally we now have a good look at it > from the scientific perspective. > > I tried, I know I could not get the message across because I can't do the > physics speak. But, I'm not a scientist. Lots of non scientist wrote they > understood exactly what I was saying. Scientists have a hard time because > they have been trained to think a certain way. > > Now everything has changed!!! > > Fianlly!!! > > David Dennard > The Phoenix > http://www.whirlpower.cc > > >From: William Beaty > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >To: John Schnurer > >CC: vortex-L eskimo.com > >Subject: Re: Test > >Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:17:51 -0800 (PST) > > > >On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > Dear Folks, > > > > > > > > > Can we get a nuts and bolts definition of a votex? > > > > > >Do you have a copy of THE FEYNMAN LECTURES? Theres a whole section on > >viscous aerodynamics in there. > > > >Mathematically, a vortex is an infinitely narrow filament of "vorticity" > >which is surrounded by circular streamlines (spinning fluid, gas or > >liquid), and where the tangential velocity of the fluid has a 1/r > >distribution (r is distance from the vortex filament.) The velocity is > >infinite at the "surface" of the vortex filament. I think the math only > >works if there are no pressure changes in the fluid (so the fluid never > >seems to vanish into a closed volume or flow out of a closed volume. If > >you have a vortex which does not have 1/r velocity distribution, you can > >think of it as being a distributed pattern of vortex filaments. > >Individual vortex filaments must either be circles, or they must terminate > >upon surfaces. A REAL WORLD vortex can be imagined as a bundle of vortex > >filaments. I learned a lot about this stuff from arguing with the experts > >about what REALLY makes airplanes fly. :) > > > > > Is it like a smoke ring? > > > >Yep, a smoke ring is a circular bundle of vortex filaments > > > > > > > > If yes, then what is a tornado...? > > > >That's a good question! The bottom of the tornado terminates on the > >ground, but where's the upper termination point? If the vortex doesn't > >"land" on something, then it must arc around and connect to its bottom > >somehow. I never see anyone talking about this question. > > > > > > > Earthworms don't wear contact lenses because they don't have any > > > > > > EYES! > > > > > > Get it? > > > >nope! > > > > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > iii i From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 17:56:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10615; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:54:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:54:23 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Info. from BLP website Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:53:43 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000330044446.6143.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> <38E38392.38C5@skylink.net> <005301bf9aa0$24f9f8b0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> In-Reply-To: <005301bf9aa0$24f9f8b0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA10583 Resent-Message-ID: <"pbkpD.0.mb2.FL0vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:31:59 -0500, George Holz wrote: [snip] >microwave output? Can some maser like effect be used? Like >Michael, I don't see how to get electrical energy out of this >system efficiently. How about a wide bandgap semiconductor >photocell excited by the soft xray or hydrogen EUV emission? [snip] How about MHD? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 18:05:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13983; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:01:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:01:07 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:00:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002b01bf9a92$510ef260$9b441d26@fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <002b01bf9a92$510ef260$9b441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA13874 Resent-Message-ID: <"cegAD.0.HQ3.XR0vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:52:21 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >They can also attach to O2; (+)O-O(-) Is O2 polar? If not, then why would they attach? If they do, wouldn't they attach to anything? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 18:13:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17867; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:11:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:11:16 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:10:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <006a01bf9ac4$ff150b60$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA17805 Resent-Message-ID: <"WQ7wQ3.0.1N4.0b0vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:11:24 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] > >> >>The Burke patents can be seen at: >> >>http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=US3409820&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD >> >>Regards, >>Fred > >***{When I looked at the Burke patents on the above website, all I found >was a pictorial diagram. Surely there is an accompanying narrative that >explains what materials were used and how the thing works. If so, how do we >get to it? --MJ}*** In the top part of the page, there is a URL representing the patent number. If you click on it, you get a PDF file representing the first page of the patent, and also buttons at the top of your screen that let you page through the patent. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 18:14:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18109; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:11:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:11:56 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:12:16 -0500 From: John Farrell Subject: The Schrodinger Equation To: vortex-L eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"88dxQ.0.oQ4.ib0vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No one has responded to Larry Wharton (3/16/00; vortex) so I'll do so. Larry Wharton said: I read this paper (Reference to Mills' paper, The Relationship between the Theories of Bohr and Schrodinger with Respect to that of Mills, found at http://www.blacklightpower.com/derivative.pdf) that explains how the solutions to the Schrodinger relate . I would say that it was in standard crackpot form if I were not worried about being sued. So I will just say that the paper shows no valid derivations of any sort. Mills starts out with the massless Klien-Gordon equation with no potential as is standard in all of his theoretical developments. Three problems here are that the Klien-Gordon equation describes bosons and the electron is a fermion, the mass of the electron is not zero, and an electron orbiting a proton is under the influence of a potential. Having started out with a totally inappropriate equation, Mills then switches, without any explanation at all, to the correct Schrodinger equation with the correct mass and potential. The use of the correct Schrodinger equation then turns out to be nothing but pure misdirection. Mills just makes some nonsense arguments about appropriate boundary conditions and in no way uses the results to demonstrate his sub ground state. He simply switches back to his previous bogus results. Nothing from the Schrodinger equation had any effect on his result. {Snip the end section which was just a slam of Mills} My response follows. First, it is questionable whether or not the Schrodinger equation can or should be used to solve for the physical parameters of the hydrogen atom. The Schrodinger equation is misnamed as a wave equation. It is really a diffusion equation. A wave equation has a second derivative with respect to time, not a first derivative as in the Schrodinger equation. Second, the Schrodinger equation is not Lorentzian invariant and it cannot be used for relativistic problems. The Klein-Gordon equation and Dirac equation (which reduces the space derivatives to first order) can be used on one-particle, relativistic systems. Two-particle relativistic wave equations are presently an active research area are is the many-body problem. "Approximate two-particle equations are the Bethe-Salpeter equation, the Blackenbecker-Sugar equation, the Breit equation, and the Briet-Pauli and Meson-Exchange Interactions. It is clear that these are neither complete nor without problems." Quote from Landau, Quantum Mechanics II, John Wiley & Sons, 1996, p 201-202. Or as stated by Landau, p203, "The Schrodinger equation is clearly incompatible with relativity because it is based on a nonrelativistic relation between energy and momentum." Third, the use and solution of any of these equations always involves setting of boundary conditions (Schrodinger: the wave function that describes the electron must approach zero as the distance of the electron from the proton approaches infinity. Mills: the stable electron cannot radiate electromagnetic waves) and certain conjectures about the physical system and how the solutions must turn out. As stated by Robert Omnes (Understanding Quantum Mechanics, Princeton University Press, 1999, p 56) "Dirac's mathematics therefore could not be considered as rigorous, and as a matter of fact, it sometimes involved slightly incorrect conjectures." As they say, the proof is in the pudding. I am well aware of the inconsistencies of the use of the Schrodinger equation. It is up to Mills to show that his methods are better. In my opinion he has done so. Mills' theory (which is a unified theory--gravity is caused by two-dimensional surfaces of electrons, protins, photons, etc having curvature in 3-space) is founded on the classical laws of physics within the framework of Einstein's relativity, with one additional Lorenrtz-invariant scalar wave equation for de Broglie matter waves; it is fully consistent with Maxwell's equations. [What I am trying to say with points one through three is that what equation must be Larry Wharton, and it depends, in part, on how one interprets the *physics* of the system and how it fits in with the rest of the overall theory. Furthermore, to dismiss Mills because of a perceived error in one or more of his derivations is not wise. Everyone makes mistakes. In science, the object of criticism is to perfect hypotheses, interpretation of data, design of experiments and so on, not to demean the person who made the (perceived) error. Put another way, would we dismiss all of Dirac's work because of a few errors or incorrect conjectures?] Fourth, as stated by Reinhart Engelmann (Department of Electrical Engineering and Applied Physics, Oregon Graduate Institute of Science and Technology, Beaverton, OR; complete text can be found on the BlackLight Power web pages): "The key for quantization of the steady-state is the well known physical law that a steady state of moving charge or matter, with or without acceleration, must not radiate either electromagnetic or gravitational waves. This postulate was originally derived from Maxwell's equations by Herman Haus for a moving charge (H. A. Haus, "On the Radiation of Point Charges," Am J Phys 54 (12) 1126, December 1986) and was generalized by Mills as follows: the steady state eigenfunction of charge/matter has to be free of Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at the speed of light. The condition is equivalent to the absence of phase-matching for the exchange of energy in coupled mode theory. Retrospectively, the non-radiation postulate is the only quantization condition that makes perfect sense." Fifth, Mill's begins solving the "one electron atom" with the classical wave equation (the 4-dimensional wave equation), Eqn 1.1 in his book, page 31. He notes that all forces are central, special relativity applies, that the time function, the radial function, and the angular function are separable. He then applies his boundary condition (see Fourth above) and solves for the radial function--the radial Dirac delta function. The angular solution to this problem is, naturally (even with Schrodinger), the spherical harmonics (how could it be any different?). At this point, of course, the problem is akin to the rigid rotor. The charge and mass are important only when he gets to solving for the energy, the value for the radius (force balance), the angular momentum, the magnetic field, and so on. This approach makes perfect sense to me. Sixth, why do supporters of the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum mechanics maintain that it is perfectly acceptable to use one equation for bosons and another for fermions? Why is the Schrodinger equation "the" equation to use for the hydrogen atom, but not the relativistic hydrogen atom? Why can't the Schrodinger equation be solved for the helium atom (without resorting to thousands of parameters) or any other atom or any molecule? Why can't these supporters explain why the electron in the hydrogen atom (n = 1) doesn't radiate? Why can't these supporters explain what is spinning that gives the electron "intrinsic spin angular momentum"? The equation for the energy stored in an electric field is 0.5 times the integral of the (electric field)^2 over the volume. For a point-particle electron the volume would be from r = 0 to r = infinity; the stored energy would be infinite. Does this worry the supporters of quantum? No. They simply divide infinity by another infinity and magically find that the result of this division is the correct answer. How about worm holes that will allow matter to go from one spot in the universe to another--more magic? Are these the same people who condemn Mills without examining his work? Give me a break! Seventh, several other of Mills' detractors (not Larry Wharton) have criticized the n = 1/2, 1/3, ... states as impossible because the electron would not be force balanced This, of course would be true if the electron at 0.5 a(o), a(o) is the Bohr radius, experienced a "+1" charge. In Mills' theory, however, the effective charge experienced by the electron is "1/n". That is, the charge experienced by the electron in the n = 1/2 state is +2. It is force balanced! Furthermore, for an electron in the n = 3 state, the charge experienced by the electron is +1/3 (not +1! )--that's why the atom expands. Why is the effective charge different than the nuclear charge, you ask? Absorbed photons behave as surface charge, Mills replies. This is a well know phenomenon with microwave cavities--certain frequencies are absorbed and the cavity material has a distinct pattern of surface charge (areas that are positively/negatively charged). The same is true for a photon absorbed by a two-dimensional spherical shell of negative charge (a radial Dirac delta function that describes an electron bound to a proton). In this case the surface charge is distributed over the electron and the proton. Eight,h I wish to remind the readers of a statement by Admiral William Leahy, 1945-- "That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The [atomic] bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." The problem with Leahy's comment is that he was an expert in one area of explosives (chemical), but he knew nothing of nuclear energies. He could have found out about them (nuclear explosions), but he clearly made the decision that it wasn't worth the time and energy. Understandable, everyone is busy, and we have to make these decisions every day. However, anyone who dismisses Mills on the basis of some perceived error in his book is taking a big chance--Mills is one bright guy. Many who bash Mills' theory are experts in the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum theory; they know and they understand a great deal of experimental data. With this combination they are able to deflect new ideas and to take new hypotheses to task. In the end, it won't matter; science has a way of sorting these things out. I'm betting on Mills. Ninth, I would agree with Wharton that Mills is not a good communicator, but this does not make Mills wrong in his mathematics, physics, or engineering. These are separate issues. If you want to examine Mills' derivation of the radial Dirac delta functions as the functions to describe the radial functions of the one-electron atom (the angular functions are, as expected, the spherical harmonics)--see his book. If you read the book looking for errors (or perceived errors) you will find them. If you give Mills some leeway (recognizing that your preconceived notions *might* be incorrect) and try to understand what he is doing, you might be pleasantly surprised. The paper that Larry Wharton refers to is entitled "The Relationship between the Theories of Bohr and Schrodinger with Respect to that of Mills." The title does not claim to derive the sub ground states from the Schrodinger equation, and it does not. But it does give some of the relationships between these three different ways of understanding the hydrogen atom. Tenth, Mills is neither a crackpot or a charlatan. Mills was a summa cum laude graduate of F&M having received and "A" in every course taken. Mills, by the way, has a perfect photographic memory. Simultaneously, he helped run his father's farm and was granted several patents (for farming). [This alone does not exclude crackpot or charlatan.] Mills was admitted to Harvard Medical (he told them he had no intention of practicing medicine--he wanted to start a medical technology company). He completed all of the requirements in three, rather than four years (I believe that this was the first and last time this has been done at Harvard Med). He spent the fourth year taking graduate courses in electrical engineering and physics at MIT. After graduation from Harvard, he worked for several years in my research lab with *no* salary. He raised some money to start a company and he lived on about $5,000/year for the next five years or so (a Harvard Med graduate who could have made considerably more money right from the beginning!). Mills had no medical insurance, he drove a old Dodge Spirit with almost bald tires, and his diet generally was salads at a local Wendy's (maybe he is a crackpot). Mills works 15-20 hours per day seven days a week--every day of the year. While in my research lab he sometimes worked 3-4 days without sleeping. If you gave Mills a $1,000,000,000 he would continue as he has been (I take it back--he is a crackpot). Mills is not a charlatan. Please stop making those kind of comments; you are doing a great injustice to someone who is doing his very best. Finally, I want to thank Larry Wharton for his interest and for bringing up the Klein-Gordon/Schrodinger question. I welcome his comments about Mills' theory--but take it easy on Mills--he is a bright, dedicated person who is trying hard to change the world for the better. Best regards, John Farrell PS. You probably will not hear from me for quite a while. I am a lurker on three of these email groups. I simply (1) don't have the time to keep up with responses to questions (I get about 200 emails per day on the subject every day and I simply cannot keep up--I don't even open the majority of them), and (2) I'm not very good at communicating scientific material over this medium. My apologies. ******************************************************************* John J. Farrell email J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU Chemistry Department Phone 717-291-3803 Franklin & Marshall College FAX 717-291-4343 Lancaster, PA 17604 USA ******************************************************************* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 18:42:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28003; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:39:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:39:05 -0800 Message-ID: <006701bf9ac2$729d2f20$9b441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <002b01bf9a92$510ef260$9b441d26@fjsparber> Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:35:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"SQvWF2.0.Tr6.8_0vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 6:00 PM Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance Robin wrote: > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:52:21 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >They can also attach to O2; (+)O-O(-) > > Is O2 polar? If not, then why would they attach? If they do, wouldn't they > attach to anything? > [snip] The Electron Affinity of the O2 Molecule is 0.45 ev. From this one might conclude that once a Negative Charge attaches at one end, there should be an attraction for a Positive Charge at the other end. No? The Atmospheric "Small Ions" ~ 500/cm^3 are O2 ions with a negative charge attached, but there is "No Stable" N2 ions found experimentally. Anything? How about Wool, Cat Fur and Amber, AND ESPECIALLY Water Molecules? :-) Is the Static Cling in my clothes dryer due to LLs coming out of the wash water? Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 19:11:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06149; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:08:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:08:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:14:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance In-Reply-To: <006701bf9ac2$729d2f20$9b441d26 fjsparber> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2JbPt.0._V1.0R1vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dar Fred and folks... In text below there is written "No stable N2" molecules are found... where are these 'not found' ? Please On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 6:00 PM > Subject: Re: Tap Water Resistance > > Robin wrote: > > > > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:52:21 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > [snip] > > >They can also attach to O2; (+)O-O(-) > > > > Is O2 polar? If not, then why would they attach? If they do, wouldn't they > > attach to anything? > > [snip] > > The Electron Affinity of the O2 Molecule is 0.45 ev. From this one might conclude > that once a Negative Charge attaches at one end, there should be an attraction > for a Positive Charge at the other end. No? > > The Atmospheric "Small Ions" ~ 500/cm^3 are O2 ions with a negative charge attached, > but there is "No Stable" N2 ions found experimentally. > > Anything? How about Wool, Cat Fur and Amber, AND ESPECIALLY Water Molecules? :-) > > Is the Static Cling in my clothes dryer due to LLs coming out of the wash water? > > Regards, Frederick > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 19:14:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA07358; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:12:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:12:02 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:17:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Energy direct from Microwaves Re: Info. from BLP website In-Reply-To: <005301bf9aa0$24f9f8b0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"a-bQ02.0.ro1.1U1vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, Energy directly from microwaves is easy using heating effects into the usual black body absorbers. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 19:35:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14346; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:33:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:33:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <006a01bf9ac4$ff150b60$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:30:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Resent-Message-ID: <"yHq-x.0.zV3.Vo1vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:11:24 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>[snip] >> >>> >>>The Burke patents can be seen at: >>> >>>http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=US3409820&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD >>> >>>Regards, >>>Fred >> >>***{When I looked at the Burke patents on the above website, all I found >>was a pictorial diagram. Surely there is an accompanying narrative that >>explains what materials were used and how the thing works. If so, how do we >>get to it? --MJ}*** >In the top part of the page, there is a URL representing the patent number. >If you click on it, you get a PDF file representing the first page of the >patent, and also buttons at the top of your screen that let you page through >the patent. ***{Thanks for the assist. When I clicked on the patent number, I got bounced out into Adobe Acrobat reader, where I had only a one-page file consisting of a pictoral diagram only. However, when I went back to netscape, I discovered that the various buttons you described had, indeed, magically appeared. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to "page through the patent." When I click on one of the buttons, I get bounced out into Adobe Acrobat reader again, where one more page appears. Thus I can read the material, but only by a clunky, back-and-forth process. It's very frustrating! Anyway, I see the idea of the Burke patent now. You wrap a rod of beta emitting material with a coil of copper wire, and hope that the betas will enter the wire, be twisted in the direction of current flow by the magnetic flux lines, and will thus enhance the current. Unfortunately, the range of betas in copper wire is nil, so I don't think this idea has a snowball's chance in hell of working. The betas will slam to a halt, giving off their energy as heat, long before they have been curved 90 degrees by the magnetic field. (The concept is sound, of course. But you would have to implement it some other way, in order for it to have a chance to work.) My guess is that Burke was a rich guy with what he thought was a neat idea, and he rushed out and patented the damn thing without ever proving the concept. However, in that case, how in hell did he convince the patent examiner that he had a working model, when he obviously didn't? Any thoughts? --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk __________________________________ "Look, I EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said that Mills and Newman are dishonest, insane and incompetent. If they were not insane and incompetent, they would be richer than Bill Gates. I said that. I stand by it. I never denied it. So what are you getting all worked up about? What is the big deal?" --Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 20:33:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA07224; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:32:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:32:40 -0800 Message-ID: <015801bf9b2e$b1104e60$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:32:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"xlZJF2.0.om1.df2vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, > >***{Thanks for the assist. When I clicked on the patent number, I got >bounced out into Adobe Acrobat reader, where I had only a one-page file >consisting of a pictoral diagram only. However, when I went back to >netscape, I discovered that the various buttons you described had, indeed, >magically appeared. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to >"page through the patent." When I click on one of the buttons, I get >bounced out into Adobe Acrobat reader again, where one more page appears. >Thus I can read the material, but only by a clunky, back-and-forth process. >It's very frustrating! That's odd... it works fine for me. > >Anyway, I see the idea of the Burke patent now. You wrap a rod of beta >emitting material with a coil of copper wire, and hope that the betas will >enter the wire, be twisted in the direction of current flow by the magnetic >flux lines, and will thus enhance the current. Unfortunately, the range of >betas in copper wire is nil, so I don't think this idea has a snowball's >chance in hell of working. I agree. If it works, it is not by this means. However it should be pointed out that the inventor doesn't claim that it works that way in the first place. The betas will slam to a halt, giving off their >energy as heat, long before they have been curved 90 degrees by the >magnetic field. (The concept is sound, of course. But you would have to >implement it some other way, in order for it to have a chance to work.) My >guess is that Burke was a rich guy with what he thought was a neat idea, >and he rushed out and patented the damn thing without ever proving the >concept. Maybe. But in those cases the inventor usually has an elaborate theory on why it should work if it was ever built. Burke says he doesn't know how it works-- a good sign. However, in that case, how in hell did he convince the patent >examiner that he had a working model, when he obviously didn't? Any >thoughts? I've heard differing opinions about the working model requirement, and having looked at patents quite a bit, I'd say that the patent office wants a working model if the claims are unusual, or are not well justified by printed matter accompanying the application. But they PRESENT like they may expect a working model at any time-- this keeps the inventors on their toes, so to speak. If this patent was an isolated case I would say there was nothing to it, but the same idea keeps popping up over and over. There have been a few mentions of similar things on vort already, and a cursory look at the patent class of this gadget (H03F21/00) shows at least five or six more similar inventions. That doesn't mean that it works, but it does give one reason to avoid a priori judgements about its workability, based on assumptions about how it works. There is no way to know without trying it. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 20:40:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10274; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:39:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:39:13 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:38:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <006a01bf9ac4$ff150b60$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> In-Reply-To: <006a01bf9ac4$ff150b60$3e8cd2d1 w7o9k8> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA10237 Resent-Message-ID: <"m6QQ32.0.QW2.ll2vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:55:28 -0800, Fred Epps wrote: [snip] >I doubt that either Paul's or Meyer-Mace is nuclear, at least in the sense >that it is nuclear energy being converted into the electricity. A version of Paul told me that his device ran for about half an hour before they turned it off when it got so hot that it set fire to their work bench. Of course, this could be just inefficiency, but it seems like gamma radiation etc. to me. Note also that the british patent mentions alpha, beta, and gamma rays explicitly, and even shields against them. None of the substances used in the british patent are normally radioactive, however they could become so with either neutron transfer or CF (H or D from the water content of the salts), (or perhaps due to the alteration of the properties of space itself?), or maybe CC is correct, and artificially created magnetotoroids in the inventions result in the production of neutrons which in turn react with the elements present making them radioactive. >the Hubbard coil without nuclear materials -- simply a set of solenoidal >primary coils surrounding a single solenoidal secondary, all at resonance-- >was tested in Denmark in the early 80s and was claimed to run at about 300 >percent efficiency. There are a number of versions of this idea without >radioactives as mentioned in another post-- the Coutier, Cater, and Perrigo >devices. Perhaps the alterations to the metric have two effects, first altering decay rates, and also facilitating extraction of ZPE energy due to the existence of a non-linear interface between altered space and normal space. > >Like I said, I know very little about nukes but there do seem to be some >problems with the nuclear explanation of the Paul Brown battery. The output >would seem to require a LOT of radiation. Is this radiation seen on counters >outside the battery? This is one of the things I never got a reply to. > If not, then how is it absorbed by copper wire and >steel and converted to an electric current? I think that in Paul's invention the "absorption by the copper wire" notion is a bit iffy anyway. Alphas just don't have the penetrating power to get into the wire, or for that matter even out of the solid where they are formed (alphas only travel a few microns in a solid). They do however generate masses of energetic free electrons in the solid, which could interact with the all pervasive magnetic field. (Molecular level MHD?) >Why would particles at right >angles to the current flow add to it? And if the particles do interact with >the current through some Lorentz effect, then why is it necessary to use >Brown and Hubbard's odd coil geometry? Didn't Robert say that such an odd geometry resulted in a much higher permeability than normal? Wouldn't that also imply a stronger field for the same current? >It seems that single or multiple >coils wound directly around the sample would work better. If it were just a matter of field intensity perhaps yes, but a "coil of coils" does have the double geometry that may be required to alter the properties of the metric, and bring about the "magic". >In fact this >arrangement is used in the Burke patents listed in the Brown US patent. >Burke shows in his patent that a direct current from a battery through a >coil around a radioactive rod is increased. There is no oscillation. He is >more straightforward than Brown in his patents in saying he doesn't know why >it works. I don't think we do either. Well I'm sure I don't know, but I do have some suspicions. If only I had the where with all to try them out. Access to a good nuclear lab would be ideal :). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 20:44:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11208; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:40:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:40:47 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy direct from Microwaves Re: Info. from BLP website Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:40:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <005301bf9aa0$24f9f8b0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA11183 Resent-Message-ID: <"U6wwS2.0.2l2.Fn2vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:17:07 -0500 (EST), John Schnurer wrote: > > > Dear Vo, > > > Energy directly from microwaves is easy using heating effects into >the usual black body absorbers. > > J They already have heat, so an intermediate microwave step would be pointless. What they want is direct conversion of plasma power to electricity, preferably with a conversion efficiency exceeding that of a boiler, turbine, generator combo. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 30 20:45:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12586; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:43:18 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity-warp capacitor WORKS?!! Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:42:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <006a01bf9ac4$ff150b60$3e8cd2d1@w7o9k8> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA12561 Resent-Message-ID: <"D0tSH2.0.a43.bp2vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:30:21 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >"page through the patent." When I click on one of the buttons, I get >bounced out into Adobe Acrobat reader again, where one more page appears. >Thus I can read the material, but only by a clunky, back-and-forth process. >It's very frustrating! There is also a plugin from Adobe, which will I think overcome this problem. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 01:32:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA11046; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:31:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:31:43 -0800 Message-ID: <20000331093112.82825.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.137] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Schrodinger Equation Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:31:12 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"8Vmrt3.0.Wi2._17vu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I read all this, not being a trained scientist I can't say I understood every word or reference but I did get the jist of a few things. Know is all scientific dogma based on unproven Einstein theory, followed by theory after theory, heaped on theory that mistakes don't really count, because he is a good guy because he has his degree, not a charlatan because he has his degree. Give me a break. You can't build a house on a shabby foundation. It just don't work like that. David >From: John Farrell >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-L eskimo.com >Subject: The Schrodinger Equation >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:12:16 -0500 > >No one has responded to Larry Wharton (3/16/00; vortex) so I'll do so. > >Larry Wharton said: > >I read this paper (Reference to Mills' paper, The Relationship between the >Theories of Bohr and Schrodinger with Respect to that of Mills, found at >http://www.blacklightpower.com/derivative.pdf) that explains how the >solutions to the Schrodinger relate . I would say that it was in standard >crackpot >form if I were not worried about being sued. So I will just say that >the paper shows no valid derivations of any sort. Mills starts out >with the massless Klien-Gordon equation with no potential as is >standard in all of his theoretical developments. Three problems here >are that the Klien-Gordon equation describes bosons and the electron >is a fermion, the mass of the electron is not zero, and an electron >orbiting a proton is under the influence of a potential. Having >started out with a totally inappropriate equation, Mills then >switches, without any explanation at all, to the correct Schrodinger >equation with the correct mass and potential. The use of the correct >Schrodinger equation then turns out to be nothing but pure >misdirection. Mills just makes some nonsense arguments about >appropriate boundary conditions and in no way uses the results to >demonstrate his sub ground state. He simply switches back to his >previous bogus results. Nothing from the Schrodinger equation had >any effect on his result. > >{Snip the end section which was just a slam of Mills} > >My response follows. > >First, it is questionable whether or not the Schrodinger equation can or >should be used to solve for the physical parameters of the hydrogen atom. >The Schrodinger equation is misnamed as a wave equation. It is really a >diffusion equation. A wave equation has a second derivative with respect >to time, not a first derivative as in the Schrodinger equation. > >Second, the Schrodinger equation is not Lorentzian invariant and it cannot >be used for relativistic problems. The Klein-Gordon equation and Dirac >equation (which reduces the space derivatives to first order) can be used >on one-particle, relativistic systems. Two-particle relativistic wave >equations are presently an active research area are is the many-body >problem. "Approximate two-particle equations are the Bethe-Salpeter >equation, the Blackenbecker-Sugar equation, the Breit equation, and the >Briet-Pauli and Meson-Exchange Interactions. It is clear that these are >neither complete nor without problems." Quote from Landau, Quantum >Mechanics II, John Wiley & Sons, 1996, p 201-202. Or as stated by Landau, >p203, "The Schrodinger equation is clearly incompatible with relativity >because it is based on a nonrelativistic relation between energy and >momentum." > >Third, the use and solution of any of these equations always involves >setting of boundary conditions (Schrodinger: the wave function that >describes the electron must approach zero as the distance of the electron >from the proton approaches infinity. Mills: the stable electron cannot >radiate electromagnetic waves) and certain conjectures about the physical >system and how the solutions must turn out. As stated by Robert Omnes >(Understanding Quantum Mechanics, Princeton University Press, 1999, p 56) >"Dirac's mathematics therefore could not be considered as rigorous, and as >a matter of fact, it sometimes involved slightly incorrect conjectures." >As they say, the proof is in the pudding. I am well aware of the >inconsistencies of the use of the Schrodinger equation. It is up to Mills >to show that his methods are better. In my opinion he has done so. Mills' >theory (which is a unified theory--gravity is caused by two-dimensional >surfaces of electrons, protins, photons, etc having curvature in 3-space) >is founded on the classical laws of physics within the framework of >Einstein's relativity, with one additional Lorenrtz-invariant scalar wave >equation for de Broglie matter waves; it is fully consistent with Maxwell's >equations. [What I am trying to say with points one through three is that >what equation must be Larry Wharton, and it depends, in part, on how one >interprets the *physics* of the system and how it fits in with the rest of >the overall theory. Furthermore, to dismiss Mills because of a perceived >error in one or more of his derivations is not wise. Everyone makes >mistakes. In science, the object of criticism is to perfect hypotheses, >interpretation of data, design of experiments and so on, not to demean the >person who made the (perceived) error. Put another way, would we dismiss >all of Dirac's work because of a few errors or incorrect conjectures?] > >Fourth, as stated by Reinhart Engelmann (Department of Electrical >Engineering and Applied Physics, Oregon Graduate Institute of Science and >Technology, Beaverton, OR; complete text can be found on the BlackLight >Power web pages): > >"The key for quantization of the steady-state is the well known physical >law that a steady state of moving charge or matter, with or without >acceleration, must not radiate either electromagnetic or gravitational >waves. This postulate was originally derived from Maxwell's equations by >Herman Haus for a moving charge (H. A. Haus, "On the Radiation of Point >Charges," Am J Phys 54 (12) 1126, December 1986) and was generalized by >Mills as follows: the steady state eigenfunction of charge/matter has to be >free of Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at the speed of >light. The condition is equivalent to the absence of phase-matching for >the exchange of energy in coupled mode theory. Retrospectively, the >non-radiation postulate is the only quantization condition that makes >perfect sense." > >Fifth, Mill's begins solving the "one electron atom" with the classical >wave equation (the 4-dimensional wave equation), Eqn 1.1 in his book, page >31. He notes that all forces are central, special relativity applies, that >the time function, the radial function, and the angular function are >separable. He then applies his boundary condition (see Fourth above) and >solves for the radial function--the radial Dirac delta function. The >angular solution to this problem is, naturally (even with Schrodinger), the >spherical harmonics (how could it be any different?). At this point, of >course, the problem is akin to the rigid rotor. The charge and mass are >important only when he gets to solving for the energy, the value for the >radius (force balance), the angular momentum, the magnetic field, and so >on. This approach makes perfect sense to me. > > >Sixth, why do supporters of the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum mechanics >maintain that it is perfectly acceptable to use one equation for bosons and >another for fermions? Why is the Schrodinger equation "the" equation to >use for the hydrogen atom, but not the relativistic hydrogen atom? Why >can't the Schrodinger equation be solved for the helium atom (without >resorting to thousands of parameters) or any other atom or any molecule? >Why can't these supporters explain why the electron in the hydrogen atom (n >= 1) doesn't radiate? Why can't these supporters explain what is spinning >that gives the electron "intrinsic spin angular momentum"? The equation >for the energy stored in an electric field is 0.5 times the integral of the >(electric field)^2 over the volume. For a point-particle electron the >volume would be from r = 0 to r = infinity; the stored energy would be >infinite. Does this worry the supporters of quantum? No. They simply >divide infinity by another infinity and magically find that the result of >this division is the correct answer. How about worm holes that will allow >matter to go from one spot in the universe to another--more magic? Are >these the same people who condemn Mills without examining his work? Give >me a break! > >Seventh, several other of Mills' detractors (not Larry Wharton) have >criticized the n = 1/2, 1/3, ... states as impossible because the electron >would not be force balanced This, of course would be true if the electron >at 0.5 a(o), a(o) is the Bohr radius, experienced a "+1" charge. In Mills' >theory, however, the effective charge experienced by the electron is "1/n". >That is, the charge experienced by the electron in the n = 1/2 state is +2. >It is force balanced! Furthermore, for an electron in the n = 3 state, the >charge experienced by the electron is +1/3 (not +1! )--that's why the atom >expands. Why is the effective charge different than the nuclear charge, >you ask? Absorbed photons behave as surface charge, Mills replies. This >is a well know phenomenon with microwave cavities--certain frequencies are >absorbed and the cavity material has a distinct pattern of surface charge >(areas that are positively/negatively charged). The same is true for a >photon absorbed by a two-dimensional spherical shell of negative charge (a >radial Dirac delta function that describes an electron bound to a proton). >In this case the surface charge is distributed over the electron and the >proton. > >Eight,h I wish to remind the readers of a statement by Admiral William >Leahy, 1945-- "That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The >[atomic] bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." > >The problem with Leahy's comment is that he was an expert in one area of >explosives (chemical), but he knew nothing of nuclear energies. He could >have found out about them (nuclear explosions), but he clearly made the >decision that it wasn't worth the time and energy. Understandable, >everyone is busy, and we have to make these decisions every day. However, >anyone who dismisses Mills on the basis of some perceived error in his book >is taking a big chance--Mills is one bright guy. Many who bash Mills' >theory are experts in the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum theory; they know >and they understand a great deal of experimental data. With this >combination they are able to deflect new ideas and to take new hypotheses >to task. In the end, it won't matter; science has a way of sorting these >things out. I'm betting on Mills. > >Ninth, I would agree with Wharton that Mills is not a good communicator, >but this does not make Mills wrong in his mathematics, physics, or >engineering. These are separate issues. If you want to examine Mills' >derivation of the radial Dirac delta functions as the functions to describe >the radial functions of the one-electron atom (the angular functions are, >as expected, the spherical harmonics)--see his book. If you read the book >looking for errors (or perceived errors) you will find them. If you give >Mills some leeway (recognizing that your preconceived notions *might* be >incorrect) and try to understand what he is doing, you might be pleasantly >surprised. The paper that Larry Wharton refers to is entitled "The >Relationship between the Theories of Bohr and Schrodinger with Respect to >that of Mills." The title does not claim to derive the sub ground states >from the Schrodinger equation, and it does not. But it does give some of >the relationships between these three different ways of understanding the >hydrogen atom. > >Tenth, Mills is neither a crackpot or a charlatan. Mills was a summa cum >laude graduate of F&M having received and "A" in every course taken. >Mills, by the way, has a perfect photographic memory. Simultaneously, he >helped run his father's farm and was granted several patents (for farming). >[This alone does not exclude crackpot or charlatan.] Mills was admitted to >Harvard Medical (he told them he had no intention of practicing >medicine--he wanted to start a medical technology company). He completed >all of the requirements in three, rather than four years (I believe that >this was the first and last time this has been done at Harvard Med). He >spent the fourth year taking graduate courses in electrical engineering and >physics at MIT. After graduation from Harvard, he worked for several years >in my research lab with *no* salary. He raised some money to start a >company and he lived on about $5,000/year for the next five years or so (a >Harvard Med graduate who could have made considerably more money right from >the beginning!). Mills had no medical insurance, he drove a old Dodge >Spirit with almost bald tires, and his diet generally was salads at a local >Wendy's (maybe he is a crackpot). Mills works 15-20 hours per day seven >days a week--every day of the year. While in my research lab he sometimes >worked 3-4 days without sleeping. If you gave Mills a $1,000,000,000 he >would continue as he has been (I take it back--he is a crackpot). Mills is >not a charlatan. Please stop making those kind of comments; you are doing >a great injustice to someone who is doing his very best. > >Finally, I want to thank Larry Wharton for his interest and for bringing up >the Klein-Gordon/Schrodinger question. I welcome his comments about Mills' >theory--but take it easy on Mills--he is a bright, dedicated person who is >trying hard to change the world for the better. > >Best regards, > >John Farrell > >PS. You probably will not hear from me for quite a while. I am a lurker >on three of these email groups. I simply (1) don't have the time to keep >up with responses to questions (I get about 200 emails per day on the >subject every day and I simply cannot keep up--I don't even open the >majority of them), and (2) I'm not very good at communicating scientific >material over this medium. My apologies. > >******************************************************************* >John J. Farrell email >J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU >Chemistry Department Phone 717-291-3803 >Franklin & Marshall College FAX 717-291-4343 >Lancaster, PA 17604 USA >******************************************************************* > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 05:35:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15955; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:33:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:33:47 -0800 Sender: jack pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38E4B77D.287F6464 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:34:37 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Schrodinger Equation References: <20000331093112.82825.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"WVurF3.0.8v3.waAvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave wrote: [Regarding Mills] is all scientific dogma based on unproven Einstein theory, ... Hi David, Design equations, such as E = mc^2, based on Einstein's theory work. Whether or not Einstein's theroy is unproven is irrelevant. We should consider it, but not let it get in our way when we plan experiments. Mill's theory may have a role in regard to his experimental results similar to the role Roger Bacon's theory had in his re-invention of gunpowder. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 06:06:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22706; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:04:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:04:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20000331140418.17322.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.253.143] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Schrodinger Equation Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:04:18 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"G6GtP1.0.dY5.32Bvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree. My experiments with whirlpools are going great. Has nothing to do with all the dogma in the world, just plain simple real tests. And it appears by all accounts that we have built the first whirlpools ever by man in all recorded history. Hard to believe? Hard for me to believe too!!! But top vortex experts in France and Sweden and now Callum Coats, author of "The Living Energies" and translator of Schaubergers' work from Australia, have sent in their accord. We have made history. And very soon, if my theory is correct, we will have whirlpools up and running generating electricity. David Dennard http://www.whirlpower.cc >From: "Taylor J. Smith" >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: The Schrodinger Equation >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:34:37 +0000 > > >Dave wrote: > >[Regarding Mills] is all >scientific dogma based on unproven Einstein theory, ... > >Hi David, > >Design equations, such as E = mc^2, based on Einstein's >theory work. Whether or not Einstein's theroy is unproven >is irrelevant. We should consider it, but not let it get >in our way when we plan experiments. > >Mill's theory may have a role in regard to his experimental >results similar to the role Roger Bacon's theory had in his >re-invention of gunpowder. > >Jack Smith > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 08:22:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07135; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:19:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:19:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:19:51 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Lajoie To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Schrodinger Equation In-Reply-To: <20000331093112.82825.qmail hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BKAdE2.0.Pl1.g0Dvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (Eyes roll...) This mail list is a little too... wierd. I was hoping from better than sci.physics.fusion, where everything new is shouted down. This list is hard over the other way, where guys like Einstein can't get an even break and bogus 1/n quantum numbers are accepted without so much as a derivation. Bye! Steve On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, David Dennard wrote: > I read all this, not being a trained scientist I can't say I understood > every word or reference but I did get the jist of a few things. Know is all > scientific dogma based on unproven Einstein theory, followed by theory after > theory, heaped on theory that mistakes don't really count, because he is a > good guy because he has his degree, not a charlatan because he has his > degree. > > Give me a break. You can't build a house on a shabby foundation. It just > don't work like that. > > David > > >From: John Farrell > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com > >Subject: The Schrodinger Equation > >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:12:16 -0500 > > > >No one has responded to Larry Wharton (3/16/00; vortex) so I'll do so. > > > >Larry Wharton said: > > > >I read this paper (Reference to Mills' paper, The Relationship between the > >Theories of Bohr and Schrodinger with Respect to that of Mills, found at > >http://www.blacklightpower.com/derivative.pdf) that explains how the > >solutions to the Schrodinger relate . I would say that it was in standard > >crackpot > >form if I were not worried about being sued. So I will just say that > >the paper shows no valid derivations of any sort. Mills starts out > >with the massless Klien-Gordon equation with no potential as is > >standard in all of his theoretical developments. Three problems here > >are that the Klien-Gordon equation describes bosons and the electron > >is a fermion, the mass of the electron is not zero, and an electron > >orbiting a proton is under the influence of a potential. Having > >started out with a totally inappropriate equation, Mills then > >switches, without any explanation at all, to the correct Schrodinger > >equation with the correct mass and potential. The use of the correct > >Schrodinger equation then turns out to be nothing but pure > >misdirection. Mills just makes some nonsense arguments about > >appropriate boundary conditions and in no way uses the results to > >demonstrate his sub ground state. He simply switches back to his > >previous bogus results. Nothing from the Schrodinger equation had > >any effect on his result. > > > >{Snip the end section which was just a slam of Mills} > > > >My response follows. > > > >First, it is questionable whether or not the Schrodinger equation can or > >should be used to solve for the physical parameters of the hydrogen atom. > >The Schrodinger equation is misnamed as a wave equation. It is really a > >diffusion equation. A wave equation has a second derivative with respect > >to time, not a first derivative as in the Schrodinger equation. > > > >Second, the Schrodinger equation is not Lorentzian invariant and it cannot > >be used for relativistic problems. The Klein-Gordon equation and Dirac > >equation (which reduces the space derivatives to first order) can be used > >on one-particle, relativistic systems. Two-particle relativistic wave > >equations are presently an active research area are is the many-body > >problem. "Approximate two-particle equations are the Bethe-Salpeter > >equation, the Blackenbecker-Sugar equation, the Breit equation, and the > >Briet-Pauli and Meson-Exchange Interactions. It is clear that these are > >neither complete nor without problems." Quote from Landau, Quantum > >Mechanics II, John Wiley & Sons, 1996, p 201-202. Or as stated by Landau, > >p203, "The Schrodinger equation is clearly incompatible with relativity > >because it is based on a nonrelativistic relation between energy and > >momentum." > > > >Third, the use and solution of any of these equations always involves > >setting of boundary conditions (Schrodinger: the wave function that > >describes the electron must approach zero as the distance of the electron > >from the proton approaches infinity. Mills: the stable electron cannot > >radiate electromagnetic waves) and certain conjectures about the physical > >system and how the solutions must turn out. As stated by Robert Omnes > >(Understanding Quantum Mechanics, Princeton University Press, 1999, p 56) > >"Dirac's mathematics therefore could not be considered as rigorous, and as > >a matter of fact, it sometimes involved slightly incorrect conjectures." > >As they say, the proof is in the pudding. I am well aware of the > >inconsistencies of the use of the Schrodinger equation. It is up to Mills > >to show that his methods are better. In my opinion he has done so. Mills' > >theory (which is a unified theory--gravity is caused by two-dimensional > >surfaces of electrons, protins, photons, etc having curvature in 3-space) > >is founded on the classical laws of physics within the framework of > >Einstein's relativity, with one additional Lorenrtz-invariant scalar wave > >equation for de Broglie matter waves; it is fully consistent with Maxwell's > >equations. [What I am trying to say with points one through three is that > >what equation must be Larry Wharton, and it depends, in part, on how one > >interprets the *physics* of the system and how it fits in with the rest of > >the overall theory. Furthermore, to dismiss Mills because of a perceived > >error in one or more of his derivations is not wise. Everyone makes > >mistakes. In science, the object of criticism is to perfect hypotheses, > >interpretation of data, design of experiments and so on, not to demean the > >person who made the (perceived) error. Put another way, would we dismiss > >all of Dirac's work because of a few errors or incorrect conjectures?] > > > >Fourth, as stated by Reinhart Engelmann (Department of Electrical > >Engineering and Applied Physics, Oregon Graduate Institute of Science and > >Technology, Beaverton, OR; complete text can be found on the BlackLight > >Power web pages): > > > >"The key for quantization of the steady-state is the well known physical > >law that a steady state of moving charge or matter, with or without > >acceleration, must not radiate either electromagnetic or gravitational > >waves. This postulate was originally derived from Maxwell's equations by > >Herman Haus for a moving charge (H. A. Haus, "On the Radiation of Point > >Charges," Am J Phys 54 (12) 1126, December 1986) and was generalized by > >Mills as follows: the steady state eigenfunction of charge/matter has to be > >free of Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at the speed of > >light. The condition is equivalent to the absence of phase-matching for > >the exchange of energy in coupled mode theory. Retrospectively, the > >non-radiation postulate is the only quantization condition that makes > >perfect sense." > > > >Fifth, Mill's begins solving the "one electron atom" with the classical > >wave equation (the 4-dimensional wave equation), Eqn 1.1 in his book, page > >31. He notes that all forces are central, special relativity applies, that > >the time function, the radial function, and the angular function are > >separable. He then applies his boundary condition (see Fourth above) and > >solves for the radial function--the radial Dirac delta function. The > >angular solution to this problem is, naturally (even with Schrodinger), the > >spherical harmonics (how could it be any different?). At this point, of > >course, the problem is akin to the rigid rotor. The charge and mass are > >important only when he gets to solving for the energy, the value for the > >radius (force balance), the angular momentum, the magnetic field, and so > >on. This approach makes perfect sense to me. > > > > > >Sixth, why do supporters of the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum mechanics > >maintain that it is perfectly acceptable to use one equation for bosons and > >another for fermions? Why is the Schrodinger equation "the" equation to > >use for the hydrogen atom, but not the relativistic hydrogen atom? Why > >can't the Schrodinger equation be solved for the helium atom (without > >resorting to thousands of parameters) or any other atom or any molecule? > >Why can't these supporters explain why the electron in the hydrogen atom (n > >= 1) doesn't radiate? Why can't these supporters explain what is spinning > >that gives the electron "intrinsic spin angular momentum"? The equation > >for the energy stored in an electric field is 0.5 times the integral of the > >(electric field)^2 over the volume. For a point-particle electron the > >volume would be from r = 0 to r = infinity; the stored energy would be > >infinite. Does this worry the supporters of quantum? No. They simply > >divide infinity by another infinity and magically find that the result of > >this division is the correct answer. How about worm holes that will allow > >matter to go from one spot in the universe to another--more magic? Are > >these the same people who condemn Mills without examining his work? Give > >me a break! > > > >Seventh, several other of Mills' detractors (not Larry Wharton) have > >criticized the n = 1/2, 1/3, ... states as impossible because the electron > >would not be force balanced This, of course would be true if the electron > >at 0.5 a(o), a(o) is the Bohr radius, experienced a "+1" charge. In Mills' > >theory, however, the effective charge experienced by the electron is "1/n". > >That is, the charge experienced by the electron in the n = 1/2 state is +2. > >It is force balanced! Furthermore, for an electron in the n = 3 state, the > >charge experienced by the electron is +1/3 (not +1! )--that's why the atom > >expands. Why is the effective charge different than the nuclear charge, > >you ask? Absorbed photons behave as surface charge, Mills replies. This > >is a well know phenomenon with microwave cavities--certain frequencies are > >absorbed and the cavity material has a distinct pattern of surface charge > >(areas that are positively/negatively charged). The same is true for a > >photon absorbed by a two-dimensional spherical shell of negative charge (a > >radial Dirac delta function that describes an electron bound to a proton). > >In this case the surface charge is distributed over the electron and the > >proton. > > > >Eight,h I wish to remind the readers of a statement by Admiral William > >Leahy, 1945-- "That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The > >[atomic] bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." > > > >The problem with Leahy's comment is that he was an expert in one area of > >explosives (chemical), but he knew nothing of nuclear energies. He could > >have found out about them (nuclear explosions), but he clearly made the > >decision that it wasn't worth the time and energy. Understandable, > >everyone is busy, and we have to make these decisions every day. However, > >anyone who dismisses Mills on the basis of some perceived error in his book > >is taking a big chance--Mills is one bright guy. Many who bash Mills' > >theory are experts in the Schrodinger/Heisenberg quantum theory; they know > >and they understand a great deal of experimental data. With this > >combination they are able to deflect new ideas and to take new hypotheses > >to task. In the end, it won't matter; science has a way of sorting these > >things out. I'm betting on Mills. > > > >Ninth, I would agree with Wharton that Mills is not a good communicator, > >but this does not make Mills wrong in his mathematics, physics, or > >engineering. These are separate issues. If you want to examine Mills' > >derivation of the radial Dirac delta functions as the functions to describe > >the radial functions of the one-electron atom (the angular functions are, > >as expected, the spherical harmonics)--see his book. If you read the book > >looking for errors (or perceived errors) you will find them. If you give > >Mills some leeway (recognizing that your preconceived notions *might* be > >incorrect) and try to understand what he is doing, you might be pleasantly > >surprised. The paper that Larry Wharton refers to is entitled "The > >Relationship between the Theories of Bohr and Schrodinger with Respect to > >that of Mills." The title does not claim to derive the sub ground states > >from the Schrodinger equation, and it does not. But it does give some of > >the relationships between these three different ways of understanding the > >hydrogen atom. > > > >Tenth, Mills is neither a crackpot or a charlatan. Mills was a summa cum > >laude graduate of F&M having received and "A" in every course taken. > >Mills, by the way, has a perfect photographic memory. Simultaneously, he > >helped run his father's farm and was granted several patents (for farming). > >[This alone does not exclude crackpot or charlatan.] Mills was admitted to > >Harvard Medical (he told them he had no intention of practicing > >medicine--he wanted to start a medical technology company). He completed > >all of the requirements in three, rather than four years (I believe that > >this was the first and last time this has been done at Harvard Med). He > >spent the fourth year taking graduate courses in electrical engineering and > >physics at MIT. After graduation from Harvard, he worked for several years > >in my research lab with *no* salary. He raised some money to start a > >company and he lived on about $5,000/year for the next five years or so (a > >Harvard Med graduate who could have made considerably more money right from > >the beginning!). Mills had no medical insurance, he drove a old Dodge > >Spirit with almost bald tires, and his diet generally was salads at a local > >Wendy's (maybe he is a crackpot). Mills works 15-20 hours per day seven > >days a week--every day of the year. While in my research lab he sometimes > >worked 3-4 days without sleeping. If you gave Mills a $1,000,000,000 he > >would continue as he has been (I take it back--he is a crackpot). Mills is > >not a charlatan. Please stop making those kind of comments; you are doing > >a great injustice to someone who is doing his very best. > > > >Finally, I want to thank Larry Wharton for his interest and for bringing up > >the Klein-Gordon/Schrodinger question. I welcome his comments about Mills' > >theory--but take it easy on Mills--he is a bright, dedicated person who is > >trying hard to change the world for the better. > > > >Best regards, > > > >John Farrell > > > >PS. You probably will not hear from me for quite a while. I am a lurker > >on three of these email groups. I simply (1) don't have the time to keep > >up with responses to questions (I get about 200 emails per day on the > >subject every day and I simply cannot keep up--I don't even open the > >majority of them), and (2) I'm not very good at communicating scientific > >material over this medium. My apologies. > > > >******************************************************************* > >John J. Farrell email > >J_FARRELL ACAD.FANDM.EDU > >Chemistry Department Phone 717-291-3803 > >Franklin & Marshall College FAX 717-291-4343 > >Lancaster, PA 17604 USA > >******************************************************************* > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 08:49:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16019; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:47:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:47:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000331104649.013b0738 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:46:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The Schrodinger Equation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pTUrA.0.Dw3.yQDvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:12 PM 3/30/00 -0500, John Farrell wrote: >Seventh, several other of Mills' detractors (not Larry Wharton) have >criticized the n = 1/2, 1/3, ... states as impossible because the electron >would not be force balanced This, of course would be true if the electron >at 0.5 a(o), a(o) is the Bohr radius, experienced a "+1" charge. In Mills' >theory, however, the effective charge experienced by the electron is "1/n". >That is, the charge experienced by the electron in the n = 1/2 state is +2. >It is force balanced! Furthermore, for an electron in the n = 3 state, the >charge experienced by the electron is +1/3 (not +1! )--that's why the atom >expands. This last bit does not sound right, energetically. The atom expands in the n=3 state because it has higher total energy in that state, hence the electron must be farther away from the nucleus at a less-negative potential. >Why is the effective charge different than the nuclear charge, >you ask? Absorbed photons behave as surface charge, Mills replies. If they behave BOTH as surface charge AND as energy, then it looks like we're double-counting. Everything works out fine if you leave the nucleus with +1 charge and just let the absorbed photons add energy to the system, doesn't it? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 14:31:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05803; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:29:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:29:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:29:38 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list eskimo.com Subject: COOOOOL java-based simulation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ki_cJ.0.XQ1.PRIvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See "constructor" below. A tinkertoy set.... that's ALIVE!!!!!! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:57:28 -0500 From: Joseph Bellina Reply-To: "phys-l lists.nau.edu: Forum for Physics Educators" To: PHYS-L lists.nau.edu Subject: Some fun Take a look at the web-site...its clever. http://www.soda.co.uk/soda/constructor/ have a nice weekend From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 15:01:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14897; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:59:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:59:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000331165236.0127b044 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:52:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP: HiFi progress..or lack thereof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA14875 Resent-Message-ID: <"qDJCJ3.0.he3.ftIvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, I've got everything pretty much set up and I've been collecting some calibration data with pure water in the Dewars and a steady DC power delivered to the immersed, teflon-jacketed, 10 ohm precision resistor (in one of the Dewars). With 0.1 watts of input power, the delta-T between the two Dewars appears to be only about 0.8C....i.e. a sensitivity of 8C/watt. On p 479 of "The Grand Unified Theory", Sept 1996 edition, Mills reports observing a 41°C/watt sensitivity using a similar Joule heater in the exact same model Dewars I'm using. I can show that Mills observed sensitivity is close to the theoretical value for a Dewar of this size with such a Styrofoam lid. It therefore appears that my Dewar is faulty...i.e. a bad vacuum. I have switched Dewars and am repeating the experiment as this is being written. It now looks like the other Dewar is only slightly better, say 11°C/watt. I will take this matter up with the manufacturer of the Dewars, Pope Scientific. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 15:09:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18570; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:07:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:07:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000331180631.0079cc50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:06:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress..or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000331165236.0127b044 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA18512 Resent-Message-ID: <"GMtJA2.0.0Y4.6_Ivu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >On p 479 of "The Grand Unified Theory", Sept 1996 edition, Mills reports >observing a 41°C/watt sensitivity using a similar Joule heater in the exact >same model Dewars I'm using. . . . That would make it very slow and difficult to calibrate. When Srinivasan was doing a series of tests with Ni-CF, he finally got tired of the Dewar performance and deliberately broke the seals, letting in air, to lower sensitivity so that he could calibrate and run more quickly. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 15:20:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23833; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:17:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:17:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000331171636.013b575c earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:16:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress..or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000331180631.0079cc50 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000331165236.0127b044 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA23807 Resent-Message-ID: <"mTdvh1.0.Iq5.L8Jvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:06 PM 3/31/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>On p 479 of "The Grand Unified Theory", Sept 1996 edition, Mills reports >>observing a 41°C/watt sensitivity using a similar Joule heater in the exact >>same model Dewars I'm using. . . . > >That would make it very slow and difficult to calibrate. When Srinivasan >was doing a series of tests with Ni-CF, he finally got tired of the Dewar >performance and deliberately broke the seals, letting in air, to lower >sensitivity so that he could calibrate and run more quickly. I'm not surprised. With 200 cc of water in a vessel that has thermal resistance of 41C/watt, the thermal time constant will be 9.5 hours! That would necessitate waiting about 2 days to reach good equilibrium....:( Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 16:32:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15030; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:30:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:30:49 -0800 Message-ID: <38E543E7.937242E4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:33:46 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress..or lack thereof References: <3.0.1.32.20000331165236.0127b044 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1LhWA2.0.hg3.uCKvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, I'm in the process of using a Dewar-type calorimeter to check one of Dash's Ti samples. As I showed you in a private post. the sensitivity is 10 W/° using the delta T across the Teflon lid and 40 W/° between the outside and the electrolyte at a power of 0.1 W. However, the latter method is very nonlinear and sensitive to where heat is being generated. The time to reach equilibrium is 12 hrs and the real world detection limit is about 20 mW using an inert cathode for electrolytic calibration. As I noted, this type calorimeter can not be calibrated using a heater. The dual method also gives a nice check on the results. Based on my experience, Scott, I suggest the Dewar may be ok but temperature gradients are causing your problem. Try the calibration using electroysis instead. Ed Scott Little wrote: > Well, I've got everything pretty much set up and I've been collecting some > calibration data with pure water in the Dewars and a steady DC power > delivered to the immersed, teflon-jacketed, 10 ohm precision resistor (in > one of the Dewars). With 0.1 watts of input power, the delta-T between the > two Dewars appears to be only about 0.8C....i.e. a sensitivity of 8C/watt. > > On p 479 of "The Grand Unified Theory", Sept 1996 edition, Mills reports > observing a 41°C/watt sensitivity using a similar Joule heater in the exact > same model Dewars I'm using. I can show that Mills observed sensitivity is > close to the theoretical value for a Dewar of this size with such a > Styrofoam lid. > > It therefore appears that my Dewar is faulty...i.e. a bad vacuum. I have > switched Dewars and am repeating the experiment as this is being written. > It now looks like the other Dewar is only slightly better, say 11°C/watt. > I will take this matter up with the manufacturer of the Dewars, Pope > Scientific. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 16:32:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15293; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:31:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:31:28 -0800 Message-ID: <38E5445A.9AE4844F ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:35:38 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Mar 31, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cNAg4.0.nk3.VDKvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Mar 31, 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:59:12 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 31 Mar 00 Washington, DC 1. MARS: SOFTWARE GLITCH DOOMED THE POLAR LANDER. In the absence of any telemetry data during its descent (left off the spacecraft to reduce costs) it was not expected that the cause of the Mars Polar Lander failure could be determined. During testing of a lander originally scheduled for launch in 2001, however, a fatal flaw was found in the software that would have caused the descent engines to shut down prematurely. That mission has now been rescheduled for 2003. If the problem had surfaced before the MPL reached Mars, it could have been corrected by a single line of code. Other fatal flaws were not ruled out. No probable cause was found for the failure of the Deep Space-2 microprobes that were piggybacked on the lander, but an independent assessment team headed by Thomas Young concluded that the microprobes "were not adequately tested and were not ready for launch." 2. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: "CONSUMER DEMAND" DRIVES NIH PROGRAM. It had the feel of a post-game celebration. Arlen Specter (R-PA) and Tom Harkin (D-IA), chair and ranking member of the Senate Labor, HHS Appropriations Subcommittee, held a hearing this week devoted to self-congratulations on having created the new National Center of Complementary and Alternative Medicine at NIH, with a budget of $68.7M. It's "for the people," they exulted, 42% of whom spend some $27B annually for therapies ranging from magnets to herbal supplements. No mention was made of the growing number of fatal reactions to untested supplements (WN 24 Mar 00). The Center replaces the Office of Complementary and Alternative Medicine that was headed by Wayne Jonas, a homeopath. The new Director, Stephen Strauss, an NIH virologist, is reputed to be a serious researcher. In addition to such CAM gurus as Dean Ornish and Andrew Weil, there was the usual parade of grateful patients: "I was a shattered woman," one testified, "angry at God." Then she discovered Herbert Benson's Mind-Body Institute and had a baby. Benson wants studies of the placebo effect, to show how the mind heals the body, but Harkin proposed discarding the term "placebo effect." "It's real medicine," he insisted. The next Specter-Harkin goal? Complementary and alternative medicine in the curriculum of every medical school. 3. WARP DRIVE: THE BRITS ALSO PURSUE PROPELLANTLESS PROPULSION. If the laws of physics are standing in the way of progress, it's time to change the laws of physics. Clearly, spewing out rocket propellant isn't getting us to the stars. So BAE Systems, formed by merging British Aerospace with Marconi Electronic Systems, created "Project Greenglow," patterned after NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program (WN 20 Nov 98). Like BPP, BAE is attempting to replicate the Podkletnov gravity shield (WN 15 Aug 97). If you can build a gravity shield, of course, you can build a perpetual motion machine thus defeating the First Law of Thermodynamics. It won't be the first war the Brits have lost. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 31 20:12:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA16613; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:10:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:10:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000331220850.01254d20 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:08:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi progress..or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <38E543E7.937242E4 ix.netcom.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000331165236.0127b044 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"47uCF.0.Q34.5RNvu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/34874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:33 PM 3/31/2000 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: >Based on my experience, Scott, I suggest the Dewar may be ok but temperature >gradients are causing your problem. I've got three temp sensors in the experiment cell (bottom, middle, and top) and the three readings have just stayed right on top of each other during this initial Joule heater investigation. Per Mills recipe, I'm stirring at 750 rpm with a 2 cm long oval stir bar in each Dewar. Maybe that's sufficient to get rid of the inhomogeneities you've been seeing? >Try the calibration using electroysis >instead. I will. Unfortunately I've got to let this experiment lie for 2 weeks due to other activities (trips, etc.) but I'll be back on it pretty soon. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org