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From:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/books/042900robert-park.html

	<><><><><><><><><><><>

A Claim-Buster by Calling

 By PATRICIA COHEN

   OLLEGE PARK, Md. -- Late one night in 1954,  Robert L. Park
was driving back to Walker Air Force Base in Roswell, N.M., on a
desolate stretch of West Texas highway. News reports of U.F.O.
sightings were practically a daily occurrence, but when he saw a
dazzling blue-green light streak across the sky, he figured out
precisely what it was. After all, he was an electronics officer,
a lieutenant overseeing the installation of a new radar system in
Roswell, and he recognized the fluorescent illumination of an ice
meteorite plunging into the atmosphere. 

So he was feeling rather superior to the U.F.O.-spying hysterics
when, after crossing into the New Mexico desert, he suddenly
noticed a shiny metallic disc racing along the horizon.

"I stepped hard on the gas pedal of the Oldsmobile," Mr. Park
writes, "and the saucer accelerated. I slammed on the brakes --
and it stopped." For a moment he was convinced he was seeing a
flying saucer. But when he looked a bit more closely, he realized
what had happened: "I could see that it was only my headlights,
reflecting off a single phone line strung parallel to the
highway." 

Now a distinguished physicist at the University of Maryland, Mr.
Park wonders, "What if that phone line ended, and the 'spaceship'
just vanished?" Would he now consider alien visitors to be at
least a possibility? Would he still be so quick to dismiss
seemingly incredible claims? 

For while many professional physicists recognize him for his
technical research on the structure of crystal surfaces, to the
somewhat wider audience that includes readers of his weekly
newsletter and zany inventors of all types, Mr. Park, 69, is
known as a gadfly, an indefatigable debunker of alien abductions,
miraculous cures, infinite energy sources and wasteful spending. 

In congressional testimony, he has railed against Star Wars
defense strategies, government secrecy and research into
alternative medicine; he has ridiculed the supposed dangers of
silicon breast implants and electric power lines. He says the
powdered orange drink Tang was not developed for the space
program. 

Last year, he revealed that a pricey new health supplement called
Vitamin O was nothing more than salt water, causing the Federal
Trade Commission to charge its manufacturer with fraud. And this
month he wrote about another company hawking a similar salt water
supplement for $34.95. 

He doesn't bother to cloak his attacks in diplomatic niceties.
"He's more truculent than I am," says Michael Shermer, the
publisher of Skeptic magazine, who considers Mr. Park a
wonderfully credible ally, even if he does occasionally get under
the skin of potentially powerful supporters. "He doesn't suffer
fools gladly." 

James Randi, a professional magician who exposes supernatural
claims, has known Mr. Park for more than 10 years. "You have to
hose him down every two hours just to keep him cool," he said
with a laugh. 

Mr. Park's revelations and his confrontational style have earned
him a string of admirers as well as litigious critics, who
occasionally threaten to sue him for ruining multimillion-dollar
business prospects or for slandering them.

Such threats delayed for a month the publication of his first
book for a general audience, "Voodoo Science" (Oxford University
Press), which is now scheduled to appear in stores in May and has
been written about by nonscience media like Salon.com. 

Sitting in the upstairs office of his home here, Mr. Parks seems
unfazed. He is a compact man, and with his lean face, short gray
hair and luminous blue eyes, he looks a bit like the actor Roy
Scheider. "This is the most fun I've ever had," he says of his
efforts to clue the public into scientific disputes. 

One of his favorite targets is NASA, which he says is constantly
financing harebrained schemes. 

The projects are then quietly dropped, he goes on, because the
tests are "inconclusive" -- a word he describes in his book as
"NASA talk for 'it didn't work,' but if you said 'it didn't
work,' you'd have to explain why you'd paid all that money." 

Just last year the space agency approved $600,000 for what Mr.
Park describes as an antigravity device invented by an obscure
Russian scientist that he says violates all the known laws of
physics and that no other scientists have taken seriously. 

Robert L. Norwood, director of the commercial technology program
at NASA, says the grant is part of a program specifically
designed to explore unconventional ideas. "This is a legitimate
area of research," Mr. Norwood said, explaining that the agency
is looking for "original, exotic techniques that could have huge
payoffs in the future. . . . If the experiment doesn't work, then
you drop it and move on."

Marc Millis, a NASA aerospace engineer who is responsible for
investigating cutting-edge ideas, said he thought that Mr. Park
sometimes jumped too quickly to conclusions about the silliness
of new research. The space agency has a responsibility to be a
leader in research, Mr. Millis said, and has a very systematic,
step-by-step approach to check that progress is made before more
money is spent. 

Mr. Park gets even more exercised by advocates of alternative
medicine, which he describes as more superstition than science.
He is appalled that the government has established a center for
its study as part of the National Institutes for Health. In his
characteristic slash-and-burn style, he called the center's
previous director, Wayne Jonas, "crazy" because he is a
homeopathist. 

Mr. Jonas, who is now an associate professor of family medicine
at the Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences, the
military's medical school, said that Mr. Park "goes way outside
his field and just bashes everything." There are legitimate
reasons to question some of homeopathy's results, Mr. Jonas said,
but he added that Mr. Park "never seems to address any of those.
He doesn't want to or doesn't know how to." 

To Mr. Park, alternative medicine exploits the placebo effect.
And while he doesn't deny that the mind can play an extraordinary
role in healing, he says that only goes so far. "The mind has
something do with it, but it won't cure baldness and it won't
shrink tumors," he said. "But people with a magical view will
start claiming that you can." 

He points to the New Age celebrity health writer Deepak Chopra,
who says you can use the mind -- through the techniques of
meditation and yoga -- to banish aging. Last month Mr. Park went
to see him speak at a luncheon in Washington. "Mostly I wanted to
see if he was getting older, and he is," he says with glee. "It
was unmistakable." 

Mr. Park picked up the mindset of a skeptic at an early age, when
he was a boy on his father's South Texas farm. 

By the time he was 12 years old, he began to question some of the
verities he heard in Sunday school. So when a new young minister
joined the Methodist church he attended, Mr. Park thought he
could confide in him and discuss his questions. "I started to
explain some of the things that seemed illogical to me," Mr. Park
said. "And he interrupted me and said, 'You know, you can go to
hell just as quick for doubting as for stealing.' 

"At that moment I realized this was not for me. I couldn't help
doubting." 

It wasn't until he joined the military, during the Korean War,
that he actually decided to pursue science. Until then, he had
assumed he would become a lawyer and a farmer just like his
father. (His father was not very successful at either, Mr. Park
said, which was why he had to do both). But when the Air Force
sent Mr. Park to radar school, he discovered a passion for
physics. 

After he left the service and returned to his wife, Gerry, and
the University of Texas, he finished at the top of his class and
won a graduate fellowship to Brown University. Government work on
weapons systems at Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque
occupied the next 10 years, until the University of Maryland
wooed him away with an offer to head the material sciences
department. 

Sixteen years ago, the American Physical Society, the nation's
largest organization of physicists, asked him to try a temporary
stint as its public affairs director during a sabbatical. He
returned to teaching but also stayed on at the society, writing a
weekly column called "What's New," which he ends with the tag
line, "Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared
by the A.P.S., but they should be." 

He arrives at the society's offices in Washington every morning
at 6 a.m. to lift weights for an hour in the building's gym,
later spending two hours running. He also runs marathons with his
older son, Robert Jr., the principal cellist for the United
States Army orchestra, and competes in triathalons with his
younger son, Daniel, who owns a couple of bicycle stores. 

So Mr. Park has no guilt about indulging in the weekly ritual of
Sunday morning pancakes with Gerry, the sons, their wives and
three grandsons. 

He says he wrote "Voodoo Science" because he was tired of hearing
scientists bemoan the scientific illiteracy of the public,
without explaining what it is they should know. 

He lists five subjects or concepts that he thinks every educated
person should understand: Darwinian evolution, the Copernican
solar system, the size of the universe, the laws governing the
conservation of energy (that way people would know that infinite
energy sources and perpetual motion machines are impossible) and
ratios (so people would have a sense of scale). 

"Beyond that, it is the responsibility of scientists to inform
the public, and that's what we're not doing," he said. 

Although energetic scientific disputes can confuse the public,
Mr. Park thinks they can be instructive so long as the combatants
adhere to the scientific method. Global warming, he says, is "an
almost perfect example of how science rises above the flaws of
individual scientists." Both those who fear warming effects and
those who think the dangers are overblown have a kind of
religious fervor and are convinced that truth is on their side,
he says. But each side is also aware that the opposition will
pounce on any scientific mistakes; this has led to an enormous
expansion of knowledge about the climate. 

He does, however, warn that dueling experts can lead people to
conclude it is impossible to figure out what's going on and to
feel that anything can happen. "And that's exactly the wrong
message," he declares. "The universe is not nearly as weird as it
used to be. A strange universe is one that does unpredictable
things. This universe is less strange because it's more
predictable." 

>From his vantage point, "It's not the psychics who predict the
future. It's the scientists."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 09:48:12 2000
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***{Here is something I found in another group. --MJ}***

***************************************
> The phone rings at FBI headquarters.
>
> "Hello?"
>
> "Hello, is this FBI?"
>
> "Yes. What do you want?"
>
> "I'm calling to report my neighbour Tom. He is hiding marijuana in his
> firewood."
>
> "This will be noted."
>
> Next day, the FBI comes over to Tom's house. They search the shed where
the
> firewood is kept, break every piece of wood, find no marijuana, swear at
Tom
> and leave.
>
> The phone rings at Tom's house.
>
> "Hey, Tom!  Did the FBI come?"
>
> "Yeah!"
>
> "Did they chop your firewood?"
>
> "Yeah they did."
>
> "Okay, now it's your turn to call. I need my garden plowed."
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 12:47:03 2000
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Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:40:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Uban <uban world.std.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Greg Watson's e-mail update & SMOT refunds
Cc: uban world.std.com, gowatson@ozemail.com.au, gowatson@hotmail.com
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Hi Freenrg-bees & Vorts,

	Unfortunately, Greg Watson seems to have
gone incommunicado again.  At least, as far as 
responding on my request for SMOT refunds.  After
he gave (at least) two refunds (Stefan & Nick),
I went ahead and sent him the info for refunding
my SMOTs purchase.  Greg responded that he would
get the funds out ASAP, but now he has gone silent.
I last heard from him on Apr 15.  And that was from
the now reported discontinued email address of
"gowatson ozemail.com.au".  My followup emails
were to both his addreses, but with no reply.  
	Hopefully, Greg will continue to follow 
through with refunds to requestors.  But, if there 
is no reply from him soon, I'm afraid this sort of 
delay and diversion simply raises my suspicions 
once again.  Two years of this has worn down my
patience.
		Jim

> On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Michael Randall wrote:
> Subject: Greg Watson's e-mail update
>
> Hi All,
>
> Gregory Watson gowatson hotmail.com asked to tell he me to tell others (SMOT
> purchasers) that he is not using the gowatson ozemail.com.au email address
> anymore.
>
> Regards,  Michael

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 14:51:08 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Greg Watson's e-mail update & SMOT refunds
Cc: uban world.std.com, gowatson@ozemail.com.au, gowatson@hotmail.com
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Jim Uban wrote:

>	Unfortunately, Greg Watson seems to have
>gone incommunicado again.  At least, as far as 
>responding on my request for SMOT refunds. . . .

>But, if there 
>is no reply from him soon, I'm afraid this sort of 
>delay and diversion simply raises my suspicions 
>once again.  Two years of this has worn down my
>patience.

I'd say he's nuts. He hasn't been acting like a petty thief lately, but he
is clearly several nachos short of a cheese dip plate.

My patience is not worn down. I wrote him off long ago, along with his
machine, and my money. It would be pleasant surprise to get the money back,
but I am not counting on it. No matter what he does now, short of  shipping
a SMOT, he has permanently consigned himself to the flake file as far as I
am concerned.

Actually, even with a working SMOT I would consider him a kook & a genius.
(A person can be both, after all.) I sometimes wonder whether Newman falls
into that category. Kind of an idiot savant. Such people are a total loss
to the world, alas. There have been a few genuine antisocial genius
inventors, notably John Harrison, but most stories of genius eccentricity
are exaggerated. There were others like Oliver Heaviside, who was a kook
and recluse, but an affable fellow once you got to know him, and quite
productive. He reclusiveness probably helped him concentrate.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 15:31:24 2000
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Subject: The Long Beach APS Zimmerman report 
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May 1, 2,000

Well, I went to the Long Beach Convention Center Sunday to specifically
record Zimmerman's anticipated initial talk on 'Pseudoscience and
Pseudoscientists'. This was to be done prior to proceeding with a simple
APS awards ceremony where two recipients gave a longish speech on their
award subject.
 
Zimmerman was doing the awards function as one of the last act as some
kind of chairman functionary of the APS. The audience consisted, at the
most, about 22 and fluctuating more like 17 with in and outs. The net
audience was more like five, which left right away when Zimmerman said
he will not give his talk. 

Zimmerman's talk Abstract had been long posted on the APS web site for
some months. 
He was recorded in sight and sound, of which the net content amounted to
about five minutes or less related to his talk.

Zimmerman did not give his anticipated talk because, on his own decision
and not the State Department where he has a 'day job', he decided that
no matter what disclaimers he may make about his personal opinions not
being part of the State Department's, people would take it as such. And
he felt that the subject matter of 'pseudoscience and pseudoscientists'
were a little too controversial. This conclusion was reached in private
discussions last week. And he felt his 'day job' was senior to his
private opinions. His 'day job' was as Science Advisor to the State
Department. He did say that his speech text will appear in print in an
APS publication later.

I wonder how long Zimmerman held the job as Science Advisor to the State
Department. I wonder if it was long enough ago to have influenced
Japan's NHE Project direction and conclusions through the State
Department protecting American interests. 
This may throw another light to the report in IE about Japan's NHE
failure. I fantasize. :)

Anyway, if 'Gene or Scott desires copies, let me know.

-AK-

ps: Thanks to Blanton in catching the NYT article about Robert Park. The
article was also highlighted by Zimmerman as he held up the NYT paper
(They must be friends). It is located in the mid pages of the front
section of the Saturday paper. The color picture of Park looks pretty
healthy standing in front of two Washington Monument pictures, one of
which is a 'pseudo-image'.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 19:13:32 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: NY Times Article on Park
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:09:52 -0400
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Gnorts,

Ms Cohen has written an interesting article that seems fairly well balanced
on the surface, but an overview of the issues and claims that Park has
chosen to "bust" and the issues that he has remained remarkably silent about
over the years, pretty well shows that Park represents a large, professional
guild of highly paid scientists that have contradicted themselves in many
ways for the sake of reaping a large financial benefit for themselves.
Quite often this is done to the detriment of the taxpayer, and even the
lives of many people.

As examples, Park blasts relatively low funding requests that NASA has made
to investigate new physics that don't require nuclear energy, but he will
gladly overlook projects that cost 10's and 100's of billions of dollars
that are outright corrupt and scientifically unsound that do.  He will scoff
at environmentalists who warn about the dangers of nuclear energy,
minimalizing the danger and saying that it can be safely used, but then he
remains silent about the fraud and corruption in the nuclear industry's
handling of the dangerous material, and says nothing about the 100's of
billions that have been spent to try and clean it up or contain it.

When he blasts homeopathic medicine, which mainly stresses a healthy
lifestyle of good diet, positive outlook and exercise, combined with a
preventative approach to disease treatment, nearly all of which is low cost
and sensical, he is silently promoting the nuclear medicine and drug
industries which are after-the-fact, reactionary treatment styles that are
not nearly as effective, and available to fewer and fewer people due to the
extremely high cost.

He has also failed to note the disturbingly obvious phenomena that many of
the medical, environmental, food, and alternative energy companies
themselves have been merged into larger and more profitable defense oriented
companies, and that the research moneys granted to universities, government
labs, and private companies that were nominally earmarked for projects that
would help promote and sustain life are being diverted to technologies that
kill, enslave and make large profits.  University administrators and
department heads are being chosen for their compliance to the demands of big
business and defense industries instead of their actual contributions to
lifekind.  It is the very antithesis of science, or at least any healthy
science.

Mr. Park needs to be debunked himself, in my opinion.  His clowning around
in many cases is killing people.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 19:36:31 2000
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Take a look at http://noosphere.princeton.edu

It appears that R.D. Nelson and the PEAR labs are using deviations from
randomness in a worldwide network of RNGs to detect something.  "Cosmic
background PSI noise?"  Focused human attention on a worldwide scale?

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 20:23:25 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Greg Watson's e-mail update & SMOT refunds
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:29:50 -0400
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Jed writes:
>I'd say he's nuts. He hasn't been acting like a petty thief lately, but he
>is clearly several nachos short of a cheese dip plate.
>
>My patience is not worn down. I wrote him off long ago, along with his
>machine, and my money. It would be pleasant surprise to get the money back,
>but I am not counting on it. No matter what he does now, short of  shipping
>a SMOT, he has permanently consigned himself to the flake file as far as I
>am concerned.
>
>Actually, even with a working SMOT I would consider him a kook & a genius.
>(A person can be both, after all.) I sometimes wonder whether Newman falls
>into that category. Kind of an idiot savant. Such people are a total loss
>to the world, alas. There have been a few genuine antisocial genius
>inventors, notably John Harrison, but most stories of genius eccentricity
>are exaggerated. There were others like Oliver Heaviside, who was a kook
>and recluse, but an affable fellow once you got to know him, and quite
>productive. He reclusiveness probably helped him concentrate.
>
>- Jed

If you read the bio's of almost any innovative thinker Jed, you will find
large amounts of nuttiness, and this isn't just confined to the science
world.  I didn't get involved with the SMOT discussions at all because the
phenomenon itself just didn't look that powerful or interesting, but from
what I did observe, Greg tried very hard, and got stomped into oblivion for
his efforts from every direction as soon as the money people descended on
him.  I can understand how this whole thing has been a painful and expensive
experience for him, and he has my sympathy.  I'm sure that if at all
possible, he will re-imburse everyone.  It wasn't that much to begin with.
Until then, I'd quit pestering him, and let him get on with his life.

Knuke - Standard Bearer for the Nutty, Defender of All Things Kooky
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  1 23:40:46 2000
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Subject: Zimmerman Abstract
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May 1, 2000

Mitch,

I got around to looking for the abstract copy
of Zimmerman's "Touching The Third Rail:
Encounters with Pseudoscience and
Pseudoscientists".
At the APS web site, the scheduling for the
talk and abstract access was now changed so
that there were no abstract available for
downloading.
However, I did find my copy of the printed
Abstract which I had taken to the Conference
with me. I thought I might have thrown it
away.
Also I found the date and time scheduling
which I printed out back on March 14th when
the subject was brought out..
Also there was printed out the photographic
copy of Zimmerman's submitted Abstract.
All of the three items did not have any State
Department Seal but did have a line enclosed
in parenthesis, ( United States Department of
State, Washington, DC 20520) following
Zimmerman's name.
And there were absolutely no Disclaimers
which Zimmerman inferred he may have made
toward his subject matter which was to take
some thirty minutes but now zero.
In fact, he claims his "own Department and
the Patent Office have fought back with
success" the claims of cold fusion, ZPE, and
'hydrinos'.
Now when the subject is printed in the
future, I expect a much altered paper. We'll
see.
Also I noticed in the APS News newsletter of
March 2000, coverage of Park's "voodoo
science" exposé's. This seems to be a prelude
piece to what later appeared in the NYT.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  2 05:33:01 2000
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

<snip>
 
> Zimmerman did not give his anticipated talk because, on his own decision
> and not the State Department where he has a 'day job', he decided that
> no matter what disclaimers he may make about his personal opinions not
> being part of the State Department's, people would take it as such. 

<snip>

Or, just maybe, Mills threats of litigating their slanderous
remarks are bearing fruit.

Or, maybe, there's a crack in the new energy door to the US
Gov't.  Last week, Gore called for the elimination of the
internal combustion engine within 25 years.  He later commented
that he knew we could do it in less than 25 years.

Terry

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Subject: Park bashes Mills and CF in Forbes
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:11:42 -0400
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All: 

Park on the attack in latest Forbes. Full article is on www site.


http://www.forbes.com/forbes/00/0515/6511117a.htm

 Bashes cold fusion, Mills, Newman, everything else that the bastard does 
not understand.
 
He mentions Infinite Energy in passing, which I suppose might prompt some 
calls to us.

Since he mentions BlackLight in detail and the TWO power companies 
funding him, this could backfire on him in a big way.

We shall see.


Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  2 12:57:24 2000
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Huizenga's credo
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Charles Beaudette points out that the last six sentences from Huizenga's
book sum up his views neatly:


1.	"The term 'cold fusion' as presently used encompasses a melange of
claims as discussed in previous sections of this chapter."

2.	"The more avid proponents of cold fusion continue to argue that the
excess hear in many experiments is so large that the source of energy must
be nuclear fusion or some other unknown nuclear reaction (sic)."

3.	"A fraction of these proponents rakes the more conventional point of
view and admits that if the process is truly nuclear, there should be a
commensurate amount of nuclear ash."

4.	"The task for these advocates is clear cut: find the nuclear products."

5.	"If the reported intensity of nuclear products is orders of magnitude
less than the claimed excess hear, then the excess heat is not due to a
nuclear reaction process."

6.	"Furthermore, if the claimed excess heat exceeds that possible by other
conventional processes (chemical, mechanical, etc.), one must conclude that
an error has been made in measuring the excess heat."

- Huizenga. John R., Cold Fusion: Scientific Fiasco of the Century 2nd
edition. (New York Oxford University Press, 1993 p. 285


You can't argue with that! 'Cause it's one dimensional circular reasoning.
Arguing with this would make you look like an ant trying to escape from a
Mobius strip. See also: Self-referential and unfalsifiable arguments,
fallacy of.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  2 13:41:06 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Consciousness detector
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>Take a look at http://noosphere.princeton.edu
>
>It appears that R.D. Nelson and the PEAR labs are using deviations from
>randomness in a worldwide network of RNGs to detect something.  "Cosmic
>background PSI noise?"  Focused human attention on a worldwide scale?

***{Bill, I was afraid this was going to happen. Your mind has been too
open for too long, and now your brain has fallen out! :-) --MJ}***

>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  2 13:41:25 2000
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Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:33:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Long Beach APS Zimmerman report
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>Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Zimmerman did not give his anticipated talk because, on his own decision
>> and not the State Department where he has a 'day job', he decided that
>> no matter what disclaimers he may make about his personal opinions not
>> being part of the State Department's, people would take it as such.
>
><snip>
>
>Or, just maybe, Mills threats of litigating their slanderous
>remarks are bearing fruit.
>
>Or, maybe, there's a crack in the new energy door to the US
>Gov't.  Last week, Gore called for the elimination of the
>internal combustion engine within 25 years.  He later commented
>that he knew we could do it in less than 25 years.

***{As CO2 levels rise, caused by the internal combustion engine, the
biosphere expands, rainfall increases, and water tables rise worldwide, all
without significant excursions in global temperatures. The proof of this
lies in long-term temperature profiles, and in odd facts such as dinosaurs
living within a few hundred miles of the poles, in temperate climates, eons
ago. Instead of worrying about melting icecaps, which would be swallowed up
by rising water tables without contributing to rising sea levels, or about
a roasted Earth (which did not happen when CO2 levels were *orders of
magnitude* higher than today), people should be cheering for the internal
combustion engine, for fossil fuel usage, and for the rising CO2 levels
that they produce. An Earth covered with forests from pole to pole would be
a good thing, truth be told. And that means human beings and human
technology are the best thing that ever happened to this tired old planet.
Thanks to us, Mister Earth is getting a new lease on life! --MJ}***

>
>Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  2 16:27:22 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Long Beach APS Zimmerman report
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 23:25:14 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Mitchell,

On Tue, 2 May 2000 15:33:58 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>***{As CO2 levels rise, caused by the internal combustion engine, the
>biosphere expands, rainfall increases, and water tables rise worldwide, all
>without significant excursions in global temperatures. The proof of this
>lies in long-term temperature profiles, and in odd facts such as dinosaurs
>living within a few hundred miles of the poles, in temperate climates, eons
>ago. 

Yup.  Them dinos had a lot of gas guzzlers (we still use a dino as the
symbol for one of our enfuelling stations).    <GD&R>

Akshully, dinos lived at the time Pangaea was just starting to break
up -- so supposedly lived near the equator.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  2 17:27:52 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Long Beach APS Zimmerman report
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>Hi Mitchell,
>
>On Tue, 2 May 2000 15:33:58 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>wrote:
>
>>***{As CO2 levels rise, caused by the internal combustion engine, the
>>biosphere expands, rainfall increases, and water tables rise worldwide, all
>>without significant excursions in global temperatures. The proof of this
>>lies in long-term temperature profiles, and in odd facts such as dinosaurs
>>living within a few hundred miles of the poles, in temperate climates, eons
>>ago.
>
>Yup.  Them dinos had a lot of gas guzzlers (we still use a dino as the
>symbol for one of our enfuelling stations).    <GD&R>
>
>Akshully, dinos lived at the time Pangaea was just starting to break
>up -- so supposedly lived near the equator.

***{Incorrect. One of the early arguments that they had to be warm blooded
(by Paleontologist Robert Baaker, as I recall) was based on abundant
fossils found near what was, at the time, one of the poles. As you may be
aware, the warm-blooded hypothesis has since been proven, by various
converging lines of evidence, the most recent being fossilized remains
which, several weeks ago, were revealed to contain the fossilized tissue of
a four-chambered heart. (They examined the internal structures using
computerized axial tomography.) --MJ}***

>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  2 18:07:08 2000
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From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Consciousness detector
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their hardware is patented, take a look at

http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=US05830064__

beware, it's 46 pages...

>Take a look at http://noosphere.princeton.edu
>
>It appears that R.D. Nelson and the PEAR labs are using deviations from
>randomness in a worldwide network of RNGs to detect something.  "Cosmic
>background PSI noise?"  Focused human attention on a worldwide scale?
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May  3 05:22:07 2000
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Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 04:34:13 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Quantum noise, one time pad, and hysteresis 
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Bitwise random number generation, discussed here earlier, is useful for one
time pad cryptograpic use, gaming, Monte Carlo simulations, or possibly for
sensing the world psyche in projects like that at
<noosphere.princeton.edu>.

I suggested, in response to a question by Jed Rothwell, using a flip-flop
driven by a fast clock to time the interval (modulo 2) between quantum
events, like radioactive disintegrations.  Alternatively, and cheaper,
tandem amplifier stages can be used to amplify thermal noise, and a trigger
used to sample the state of the output at a fixed rate much slower than the
noise central frequency, or to count the state changes across a specific
voltage threshold, say zero volts, over a fixed period.  In any similar
method, the output state does not have a 50-50 chance of being a 1, due to
trigger or flip-flop hysterisis that can never be fully compensated,
because it varies with ambient conditions. A complicated statistically
self-correcting biasing mechanism can be used to adjust the hysterises so
that the time average probability of a 1 is maintained at 50 percent.

However, it has occurred to me that there is a much simpler method to
correct for hysteresis.  That method is to invert the interpreted state of
a flip-flop containing the output sample value, every other clock cycle.
This can be done electronically, using an additional flip-flop and xor. It
has the property of cutting the sampling rate in half, however.  The state
sequence of the xor value without correction is 10101010...,  the state
sequence after correction is 001100110011....  The state flip only occurs
at half the clock rate, but the time interval is fully corrected, in
reasonably steady-state operation, because each short interval of the state
correcting flip-flop is paired with a long interval.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: The Long Beach APS Zimmerman report
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Yo,

>Yup.  Them dinos had a lot of gas guzzlers (we still use a dino as the
>symbol for one of our enfuelling stations).    <GD&R>

Zimmerman, hummm, speaking of hot air, they are also blaming us primitive 
meat eaters for all the cow farts causing global warming.  Back then it 
must have been super sized dino farts (dyno farts?).

>Akshully, dinos lived at the time Pangaea was just starting to break
>up -- so supposedly lived near the equator.

Now we call it cutting the cheese, maybe they used to call it cutting the 
continent.

Bill ;^)
webriggs concentric.net
Briggs XLNsystems.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May  3 13:20:15 2000
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Check out http://www.songs.com/philo/fusion/vassilatos.html#skip. --MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 03:00:55 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Quantum noise, one time pad, and hysteresis 
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I blew it!  Mea culpa!

This is an attempt to correct my problem.  In looking at the claims for US
Patent 5,830,064, the Mindsong Inc patent for devices related to the
methods used in the projects described at <noosphere.princeton.edu>, it
appears that others may have made the same mistake I did.

Earlier I posted on vortex:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Bitwise random number generation, discussed here earlier, is useful for
one time pad cryptograpic use, gaming, Monte Carlo simulations, or possibly
for sensing the world psyche in projects like that at
<noosphere.princeton.edu>.

I suggested, in response to a question by Jed Rothwell, using a flip-flop
driven by a fast clock to time the interval (modulo 2) between quantum
events, like radioactive disintegrations.  Alternatively, and cheaper,
tandem amplifier stages can be used to amplify thermal noise, and a trigger
used to sample the state of the output at a fixed rate much slower than the
noise central frequency, or to count the state changes across a specific
voltage threshold, say zero volts, over a fixed period.  In any similar
method, the output state does not have a 50-50 chance of being a 1, due to
trigger or flip-flop hysterisis that can never be fully compensated,
because it varies with ambient conditions. A complicated statistically
self-correcting biasing mechanism can be used to adjust the hysterises so
that the time average probability of a 1 is maintained at 50 percent.

However, it has occurred to me that there is a much simpler method to
correct for hysteresis.  That method is to invert the interpreted state of
a flip-flop containing the output sample value, every other clock cycle.
This can be done electronically, using an additional flip-flop and xor. It
has the property of cutting the sampling rate in half, however.  The state
sequence of the xor value without correction is 10101010...,  the state
sequence after correction is 001100110011....  The state flip only occurs
at half the clock rate, but the time interval is fully corrected, in
reasonably steady-state operation, because each short interval of the state
correcting flip-flop is paired with a long interval."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mindsong uses similar techniques and also employs the technique of xoring
masks with the random bit stream to attmept to further randomize it,
notably the 010101... pattern.  There clearly would be no use for such a
pattern if the circuit used was not sensitive to hysteresis.

The interesting fact is that NO AMOUUNT OF BIT XORING WITH A FIXED PATTERN
WILL CORRECT THE NON-RANDOMNESS FROM HYSTERESIS.

Suppose for a moment that the timer flip-flop hysteresis is very bad, so
that it is in a 1 state 3/4 of the time and a 0 state 1/4 of the time.
This gives the following probability table for successive bit pairs:

bits   P1   P2   P1*P2
00    1/4  1/4    1/16
01    1/4  3/4    3/16
10    3/4  1/4    3/16
11    3/4  3/4    9/16

You can see that xoring the bit pairs with any chosen mask can never make
the proabilites all exactly 1/4, which is necessary to achieve a truly
random sequence.  The probabilities remain the same, but get shifted around
to other bit sequences.  The uniform randomness can never be achieved.  Any
scientific study or application requiring uniformly random bit sequences is
invalidated or corrupted to the degree exposed to circuit hysteresis
problems, and that exposure is a function of temperature and possibly other
ambient conditions.

So, how to correct the problem?  One cheap solution is to sum (drive the
clock with) randomly varying intervals instead of uniform intervals, which
gives a random walk nature to the measured time of a random length event.
In other words, both the clock timer and the measured interval must be
random and independent.  In the case where the time interval between
radioactive disintigration events is used, the timer flip-flop state needs
to be driven by a non-uniform clock, say by filtered noise from a high gain
amplifier.  The mean frequency used to drive the flip-flop clock needs to
be at least 12 times higher than the random interval measured, and the
switching speed of the timer flip-flop preferably a couple orders of
magnitude faster at switching state than that.  Two independent high gain
amplifiers with high and low band pass filters can be used to achieve the
two independent interval clocks.  Two indentical random interval clocks
could be used, and the timed event duration clock would then consist of a 4
stage (or more) counter so as to lengthen the timed interval by a factor of
at least 16.

Unfortunately, if you are statistically testing for the non-randomness of
such a  device to measure psychic output, your success rate over chance
will likely be diminished by employing the suggested improved method.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 08:46:09 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
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The Smithsonian has an interesting on-line exhibit about Joseph Henry. Here
is an essay about the dispute between Henry and Morse over who invented the
telegraph, which led to patent fights, reaching the Supreme court:

http://www.si.edu/archives/ihd/jhp/joseph20.htm

Who invented the telegraphy? I think the answer is, they both did. Henry
discovered the key scientific principles, which Morse reduced to practice.
Who deserves more credit? It is impossible to say. Morse ended up with the
money. The dispute is similar to present-day arguments in high tech
computers, HTSC, and CF. Henry and other scientists accused Morse of
"merely" borrowing other people's ideas. From my point of view, knowing
which ideas to borrow and how to fit them together takes a kind of genius.
Steve Jobs, who has contributed more to the progress of computers than
people realize, quotes Piccasso: "Good artists borrow ideas; great artists
steal them." The essay concludes:

	Henry the scientist heralded basic research as the mainspring of
	social improvement, and thought of technological advances as the
	mere application of scientific discoveries. He conceived of his
	findings as contributions to the fund of human knowledge, freely
	available to anyone who found them useful. Also, Henry relied
	upon the open publication of his work to achieve professional
	respect and success. Morse the inventor regarded scientific
	discoveries as abstract and barren things, until someone like
	himself made them concrete and fruitful by embodying them in a
	machine.

Some of Henry's letters are shown in fascimile and transcription at:

http://www.si.edu/archives/ihd/jhp/papers02.htm#41

Attached is a letter written before the dispute with Morse erupted. The
concerns about pathological science and making the most of limited
knowledge sounds a lot like our connundrum. Consider also how many it took
to reduce ideas to practice. Today it is often said that all advances in
computers were invented 20 years ago, most of them at PARC.

I was pleased to note that Professor Henry could not spell worth a darn,
and his handwritting, shown in the facscimiles, is nearly illegible.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


PrincetonFeby 24th 1842
Professor Morse 

Dear Sir 

I am pleased to learn that you have again petitioned congress in reference
to your telegraph and I most sincerely hope that you will succed in
convincing our Representatives of the importance of the invention. In this
however you may perhaps find some difficulty, since in the minds of many,
the electro-magnetic telegraph is associated with the many chimerical
projects constantly brought before the Public and particularly with the
schemes so popular a year or two ago for the application of electricity as
a moving power in the arts. All schemes for this purpose, I have from the
first asserted, are premature and formed without proper scientific
knowledge. The case however is entirely different in regard to the
electro-magnetic telegraph the science is now fully ripe for such an
application <of its principles>, and I have not the least dout, if proper
means be afforded, of the perfect success of the invention. The idea, of
<the transmission of> transmitting intelligence, by the electrical action
has been suggested by various persons from the time of Franklin to the
present but until within the last few years or since the discoveries in
electro-magnetism all attempts to reduce it to practice were necessarily
unsuccessful. The mere suggestion however, of a scheme, of this kind is a
matter for which little credit can be claimed, since it is one which would
naturally arise in the mind of almost any person familiar with the
phenomena of electricity; but the bringing it forward at the proper moment
when the developments of science can furnish the means of certain sucess
and <the> to <devising of a> devise plans for putting <the scheme> it into
practical operation <offred> are the grounds of a just claim to scientific
reputation as well as to public patronage.

About the same time with yourself Professor Wheatstone of England and Dr
Steinheil of Germany proposed plans of the electro-magnetic telegraph but
these differ almost as much from your's as the nature of the common
principle will permit and unless some essential improvements have lately
been made in the European plans I should prefer the one invented by yourself.

With my best wishes for your success I remain 

With much Respect & Esteem 

<I am as ever>Yours Truly 

Joseph Henry
 
Draft, Henry 

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The Smithsonian has an interesting on-line exhibit about Joseph Henry. Here
> is an essay about the dispute between Henry and Morse over who invented the
> telegraph, which led to patent fights, reaching the Supreme court:
>
> http://www.si.edu/archives/ihd/jhp/joseph20.htm
>
> Who invented the telegraphy? I think the answer is, they both did. Henry
> discovered the key scientific principles, which Morse reduced to practice.
> Who deserves more credit? It is impossible to say. Morse ended up with the
> money.

Now there's the rub.  This is one of many examples of people doing basic work
being screwed by people who later turn the idea into a commercial product. It
explains why few inventors these days try to publish much detail about their
ideas.  Jed, you make the case that ideas need to be shared, an approach I
support.  However, when this is done, the person doing basic work not only has
to fight to get the ideas accepted, but when this happens, they are ripped off
when the idea is eventually turned into a product.  Even patents are not much
protection.  The only approach that makes sense is the one Mills is using.  Give
enough information to get support, but not enough to get the major companies
interested; have a few laboratories study the effect, but only in a very limited
way; meanwhile put a product development program in to effect which will be too
financially strong to be taken over by a big company when the product hits the
market.  Make no big waves, and attract as little attention as possible until
sufficient money is committed.  Actually, Robert Park is a friend because he
keeps the "big boys" from taking an interest too soon.   Our problem with cold
fusion is different.  We do not even have the basic information much less a
commercial product.  Consequently, we can not even attract development money.
However, if we should make too much of the information we do have generally
available, when the break-through comes and the phenomenon is accepted,
commercial interests would have no problem developing a product without our help
and without sharing any of the proceeds.  How would you propose to solve this
problem?

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 12:51:59 2000
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Quantum noise, one time pad, and hysteresis 
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Horace
	Back in the dark ages, circa 1955, The Rand Corporation published
a book of One Million Random Digits. It was created by A/D'ing a noise
generator, converting to decimal, and printing, I believe. It might make a
good starting point for your coding.

Hank

On Wed, 3 May 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> Bitwise random number generation, discussed here earlier, is useful for one
> time pad cryptograpic use, gaming, Monte Carlo simulations, or possibly for
> sensing the world psyche in projects like that at
> <noosphere.princeton.edu>.
> 
> I suggested, in response to a question by Jed Rothwell, using a flip-flop
> driven by a fast clock to time the interval (modulo 2) between quantum
> events, like radioactive disintegrations.  Alternatively, and cheaper,
> tandem amplifier stages can be used to amplify thermal noise, and a trigger
> used to sample the state of the output at a fixed rate much slower than the
> noise central frequency, or to count the state changes across a specific
> voltage threshold, say zero volts, over a fixed period.  In any similar
> method, the output state does not have a 50-50 chance of being a 1, due to
> trigger or flip-flop hysterisis that can never be fully compensated,
> because it varies with ambient conditions. A complicated statistically
> self-correcting biasing mechanism can be used to adjust the hysterises so
> that the time average probability of a 1 is maintained at 50 percent.
> 
> However, it has occurred to me that there is a much simpler method to
> correct for hysteresis.  That method is to invert the interpreted state of
> a flip-flop containing the output sample value, every other clock cycle.
> This can be done electronically, using an additional flip-flop and xor. It
> has the property of cutting the sampling rate in half, however.  The state
> sequence of the xor value without correction is 10101010...,  the state
> sequence after correction is 001100110011....  The state flip only occurs
> at half the clock rate, but the time interval is fully corrected, in
> reasonably steady-state operation, because each short interval of the state
> correcting flip-flop is paired with a long interval.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 13:09:00 2000
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When it comes to energy vs. pollution I say give it away.  I am and I know I 
may never see one penny.  But you can't take it with you and my bet is if 
you have something, you speak the truth, and if it turns out to be of great 
benefit, you will find your reward.  Not to mention a cleaner world for your 
children.  Maybe you will not see it happen or count your money on this 
Earth.  But life is just a blink of the eye.  There is much more to it.

Men gave their lives for us to be free.  How can we not give what we can for 
a cleaner world.  Actually I think it is kind of disgusting for someone to 
think they can actually own the energy revolution anyway.

David


>From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
>Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 11:24:21 -0700
>
>
>
>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > The Smithsonian has an interesting on-line exhibit about Joseph Henry. 
>Here
> > is an essay about the dispute between Henry and Morse over who invented 
>the
> > telegraph, which led to patent fights, reaching the Supreme court:
> >
> > http://www.si.edu/archives/ihd/jhp/joseph20.htm
> >
> > Who invented the telegraphy? I think the answer is, they both did. Henry
> > discovered the key scientific principles, which Morse reduced to 
>practice.
> > Who deserves more credit? It is impossible to say. Morse ended up with 
>the
> > money.
>
>Now there's the rub.  This is one of many examples of people doing basic 
>work
>being screwed by people who later turn the idea into a commercial product. 
>It
>explains why few inventors these days try to publish much detail about 
>their
>ideas.  Jed, you make the case that ideas need to be shared, an approach I
>support.  However, when this is done, the person doing basic work not only 
>has
>to fight to get the ideas accepted, but when this happens, they are ripped 
>off
>when the idea is eventually turned into a product.  Even patents are not 
>much
>protection.  The only approach that makes sense is the one Mills is using.  
>Give
>enough information to get support, but not enough to get the major 
>companies
>interested; have a few laboratories study the effect, but only in a very 
>limited
>way; meanwhile put a product development program in to effect which will be 
>too
>financially strong to be taken over by a big company when the product hits 
>the
>market.  Make no big waves, and attract as little attention as possible 
>until
>sufficient money is committed.  Actually, Robert Park is a friend because 
>he
>keeps the "big boys" from taking an interest too soon.   Our problem with 
>cold
>fusion is different.  We do not even have the basic information much less a
>commercial product.  Consequently, we can not even attract development 
>money.
>However, if we should make too much of the information we do have generally
>available, when the break-through comes and the phenomenon is accepted,
>commercial interests would have no problem developing a product without our 
>help
>and without sharing any of the proceeds.  How would you propose to solve 
>this
>problem?
>
>Ed
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 13:35:49 2000
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Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
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Ed Storms writes:

	Now there's the rub.  This is one of many examples of people
	doing basic work being screwed by people who later turn the idea
	into a commercial product.

In this case, that's unfair to Morse, Vail, Straight and the others who set
up the first telegraph networks. They did a lot of work after borrowing the
basic technical ideas from Henry. They took risks and made expenses
mistakes. For example, when they began laying the first long distance line
from Baltimore to Washington, they tried to put the wire underground in
conduits. This did not work. After much delay and expense, they hung the
wire from polls instead. This kind of solution did not require Henry's
knowledge of science, but it did take innovation and clear thinking. They
were starting from zero in a world where there were no electric wires
strung outside for any purpose. They had feel their way by trial and error.
The NHE program and other CF R&D projects have been scuttled by problems as
prosaic as leaky underground conduits.


	It explains why few inventors these days try to publish much
	detail about their ideas.

Morse had a patent, which means he published everything. He used the patent
skillfully, he hired good people, and he made important follow-up
inventions. (Incidentally, as a result he made a mountain of money and,
just as Bill Gates is now doing, he gave it away.)

Actually, Henry did pretty well financially, too. I do not think making
money was his main goal in life. He loved teaching.


	Jed, you make the case that ideas need to be shared, an approach
	I support.  However, when this is done, the person doing basic
	work not only has to fight to get the ideas accepted, but when
	this happens, they are ripped off when the idea is eventually
	turned into a product.

Sometimes scientist-discoverers do well for themselves. In the telegraph
business, William Thompson (Lord Kelvin) made a fortune. In computers Moore
and Noyce have done very well for themselves.


	Even patents are not much protection.  The only approach that
	makes sense is the one Mills is using.  Give enough information
	to get support, but not enough to get the major companies
	interested; have a few laboratories study the effect, but only
	in a very limited way . . .

No, I do not think this will work. I think a better approach was used by
Morse (telegraph), Edison (phonograph), Bell (telephones), AT&T
(transistors) and Gates (Windows). Get a patent if you can. As soon as it
is humanly possible, begin shipping products to generate a positive cash
flow, credibility and momentum. Set the standards early. The inventions I
listed here hit the streets years before they were stable, reliable, or
"saleable" by the contemporary standards of commerce. Reliability is not an
issue for the first decade, as long as you have  sex appeal. These machines
were crude, unreliable and sometimes expenses, and they ran into
well-established opposition, such as the semaphore telegraph systems run by
government agencies and the Royal Navy. The phonograph was written off as
an impractical pipe-dream technology 10 years after it was invented, and
again 20 years after it was invented. Edison was slower than Microsoft,
which usually take three revisions and five years to make a working
product. Edison himself gave up on the phonograph, but gradually, by wading
into the market again, taking terrible risks, and losing large sums of
money again and again, he and others made it into a commercially viable
device. (True to form, he then proceeded to rip off his investors, finagle
ownership back to himself, and strangle the competition. Edison was a piece
of work.)

The only place to fight this battle is in the marketplace, with customers,
deadlines, profit and loss. If the Mills machines have *any appeal* in any
market segment, they should be sold.


	. . .  meanwhile put a product development program in to effect
	which will be too financially strong to be taken over by a big
	company when the product hits the market.

Big companies are never the problem at first. The railroads never tried to
stop automobile companies in 1910, or the airlines in the 1930s. Mainframe
computer companies never made a move to stifle microcomputers. The threat
is from small companies and midsize companies in crisis, which are looking
around anxiously for way to survive. By the time the big companies realize
that BLP is a real threat, BLP will be too big to stop.


	Make no big waves, and attract as little attention as possible
	until sufficient money is committed.

In business, I think it is best to attract as much attention as you can, at
all times. Money will follow.


	Actually, Robert Park is a friend because he keeps the "big
	boys" from taking an interest too soon.

The more people who take an interest, the better. You want white-hot
interest, thousands of phone calls, crowds of people swamping you product
roll-out in Madison Square Garden. You want every news agency and financial
talk show begging for an interview. Pretty soon industrial corporations
will bid up licenses to manufacture the gadgets.


	Our problem with cold fusion is different.  We do not even have the
	basic information much less a commercial product.

Some people do, or did. Toyota and CETI could have launched a commercial &
technological revolution with the products they had five years ago. The
first generation of transistors and AT&T were less reliable. Martin
Fleischmann told me that they had continuously boiling cells and other
devices which could have been demonstrated and licensed. He feels they were
a few years away from commercial reliability, and well past the "demo or
die" phase. He should know; he has a lot of experience working in industry.
The decision to abandon the project was political. After Minoru Toyoda
died, support within the company collapsed and someone pulled the plug.
Toyota and CETI pissed away the biggest opportunities in the history of
commerce. BLP is probably doing that now, with a marketing strategy which
cannot work.


	Consequently, we can not even attract development money.

We -- you and I -- could not attract development money, but if I had the
kinds of cells CETI demonstrated years ago, or the gas loaded cells BLP
supposedly had, I could attract hundreds of millions of dollars of
development money and sales in no time flat. Any fool could do it, given
today's overheated "irrational exuberance." You can raise $1 billion
peddling shares in phony dot-com companies that do nothing but lose money.


	However, if we should make too much of the information we do
	have generally available . . .

We are not doing one percent of what we can and should be doing with
information already available! In any other industry, with any other
breakthrough, people like McKubre would be on the front page of Time
magazine by now, and on every talk show. The fact that he is not in the
limelight is as much SRI's fault as the opposition's. The low-profile
routine is killing us.


	. . . when the break-through comes and the phenomenon is
	accepted, commercial interests would have no problem developing
	a product without our help and without sharing any of the
	proceeds.  How would you propose to solve this problem?

The same way Morse, Edison, the Wrights, AT&T and Gates solved it. Demo the
product, sell, sell, sell, build credibility, market leadership and
momentum. A half-million people will work frantically to improve BLP
technology for their own purposes, and more progress will be made every
week than has been made over the last 10 years. This is how telephones,
aviation, computers and semiconductors boomed: hundreds of thousands of
people worked on them in parallel.

I would use the tried and true methods of business. We want new inventions
-- not new-age marketing. Human nature has not changed so I am sure the
old-fashioned textbook marketing techniques will work.

Mills could have taken over the world by now, with the gadgets Thermocore
described at MIT back in 1992. If those gadgets worked one-tenth of the
time back then, Mills would now be in a position to buy a controlling share
of Exxon, his biggest rival. I am not exaggerating. Ten years after
Microsoft started from nothing, it could have seized control of IBM. Ten
years after the first wobbly transatlantic commercial airplane flight in
1938, the airliners could have bought control in the transatlantic steamer
companies. In 1998, 10 or 15 years after Compaq and Dell got underway,
Compaq bought the remains of DEC, which had been the second largest
computer company in 1985.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 13:47:40 2000
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David Dennard wrote:

>When it comes to energy vs. pollution I say give it away.  I am and I know I 
>may never see one penny.

No me, thanks! I never turn down money. It's lovely stuff, as long as you
don't become addicted.


>But you can't take it with you . . .

Who would want to? I'd like to do what Morse and Carnegie did, and what
Bill Gates is doing. He just gave away $20 billion and if they use the
money skillfully, they will wipe out several infectious diseases, including
polio, I think. Can anyone think of a better way to spend money? It's
magnificent! Say what you like about the man, if he succeeds in this, no
one should begrudge him a penny for his lousy software. Carnegie, who was a
jerk and a cruel exploiter, gave away mountains of money. I think he was
the one who said, "he who dies rich, dies disgraced."


>and my bet is if 
>you have something, you speak the truth, and if it turns out to be of great 
>benefit, you will find your reward.

To hell with that. I'll take the money. Altruism give me the creeps.


>Not to mention a cleaner world for your 
>children.

Yes, that too. I'll grant that's more important than money, but why not
take both?


>Actually I think it is kind of disgusting for someone to 
>think they can actually own the energy revolution anyway.

I think it's wonderful. If people did not dream of owning the energy
revolution,  and making a fortune, they would never put up with the kind of
crap CF scientists must deal with. (That isn't to say ALL CF scientists are
in for the money.) In fact, if it were not for the profit motive, we would
still be living in caves.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 14:35:47 2000
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Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 14:31:43 PDT
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The love of money is the root of all evil.  Caves may be a lot better to 
what we and our children will face in the near future if this civilization 
continues its present course.  History shows many a fine building in ruins 
when man gets the big head and shows his inhumanity, greed, and lust.

If you can't see it, you're just plain blind.  History is our best teacher.

If it is all about making bubbles figure how to harness bubbles.  That's 
real ZPE.

"It's the fizz in the physics"

David


>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
>Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 16:42:01 -0400
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> >When it comes to energy vs. pollution I say give it away.  I am and I 
>know I
> >may never see one penny.
>
>No me, thanks! I never turn down money. It's lovely stuff, as long as you
>don't become addicted.
>
>
> >But you can't take it with you . . .
>
>Who would want to? I'd like to do what Morse and Carnegie did, and what
>Bill Gates is doing. He just gave away $20 billion and if they use the
>money skillfully, they will wipe out several infectious diseases, including
>polio, I think. Can anyone think of a better way to spend money? It's
>magnificent! Say what you like about the man, if he succeeds in this, no
>one should begrudge him a penny for his lousy software. Carnegie, who was a
>jerk and a cruel exploiter, gave away mountains of money. I think he was
>the one who said, "he who dies rich, dies disgraced."
>
>
> >and my bet is if
> >you have something, you speak the truth, and if it turns out to be of 
>great
> >benefit, you will find your reward.
>
>To hell with that. I'll take the money. Altruism give me the creeps.
>
>
> >Not to mention a cleaner world for your
> >children.
>
>Yes, that too. I'll grant that's more important than money, but why not
>take both?
>
>
> >Actually I think it is kind of disgusting for someone to
> >think they can actually own the energy revolution anyway.
>
>I think it's wonderful. If people did not dream of owning the energy
>revolution,  and making a fortune, they would never put up with the kind of
>crap CF scientists must deal with. (That isn't to say ALL CF scientists are
>in for the money.) In fact, if it were not for the profit motive, we would
>still be living in caves.
>
>- Jed
>

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Subject: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
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The Wisdom of the Sage

Bubbles, that tells me the story.  Gravity pulls/pushes the more dense water 
beneath the less dense bubble.  Gravity repels bubbles.

Evaporation, gravity pulls/pushes the more dense atmosphere beneath the less 
dense vapor.  Gravity repels vapor.

Light, gravity pulls/pushes the more dense space beneath the less dense 
light.  Gravity repels light.

Pulls/pushes, the cosmological constant of the monad action of gravity; 
pressure.  Gravity abhors a vacuum, and can't stand a void.

Gravity will do everything in its power to move, pull/push, implode, or 
repel any space of less density.

Heat makes space of less density.  Heat is electrostatic, gravity is 
dynamic.

It is that simple.

At least that's my opinion being an outside reseacher and not a fully 
trained scientist, a few science courses in college.  I came upon this idea 
when I began researching whirlpools, 10,000 archived pages ago.  It hit me 
heat was not making bubbles rise, nor was is making water vapor rise, nor 
was it making a hot air balloon rise.  It was gravity working on the space 
of less density, even the less dense space created by a wing in flight, even 
in rockets a fireball is a bubble too.  Just like gravity slams the 
atmosphere back together when lightning strikes.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

The sound of nothing at all.

The thermodynamic paradigm is one hand clapping.

The comological constant is the applause.

Plausable?  I think so.

What is light?  A bubble.  Space is fluid.  Gravity reples light.

But how can that be?  They say gravity pulls light in.  Yet Einstien said 
for that to be true the the measurement of "deflection" in the gravity 
telelscope had to be exactly 1.75 seconds of and arc.  It is not exactly 
that.  Every measurment has come up a little short.

So what is going on?

The answer is in THE ROSE.

David

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 15:10:52 2000
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Subject: THE ROSE (part 2)
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Continued - The Rose Part 2

David:
I propose this dark system does exist.  I propose gravity does indeed repel 
light and the so called black hole is not be a hole at all, but a very 
misunderstood star, the "Electron Star", the "Starseed", the most dense 
object in the Infinite Fluid Universe.  The back hole is really a hole in 
our knowledge and understanding of the universe we live in.

                      What Is Dark Matter?
Vera:
Whatever dark matter turns out to be, we know for certain that the universe 
contains large amounts of it. For every gram of glowing material we can 
detect, there may be tens of grams of dark matter out there. Currently the 
astronomical jury is still out as to exactly what constitutes dark matter. 
In fact, one could say we are still at an early stage of exploration. Many 
candidates exist to account for the invisible mass, some relatively 
ordinary, others rather exotic.

Nevertheless, there is a framework in which we must work. Nucleosynthesis, 
which seeks to explain the origin of elements after the big bang, sets a 
limit to the number of baryons--particles of ordinary, run-of-the-mill 
matter--that can exist in the universe. This limit arises out of the 
Standard Model of the early universe, which has one free parameter--the 
ratio of the number of baryons to the number of photons.

David:
Only under the premise that the big bang is indeed fact, and under the 
premise the universe is finite.  Ask the wrong questions, get the wrong 
answer.

Vera:
>From the temperature of the cosmic microwave background--which has been 
>measured--the number of photons is now known. Therefore, to determine the 
>number of baryons, we must observe stars and galaxies to learn the cosmic 
>abundance of light nuclei, the only elements formed immediately after the 
>big bang.

David:
Then, "look, there is the edge of the Earth. Now, "look, there is the edge 
of the universe.

Voodoo then.
Voodoo now.

Vera:
Without exceeding the limits of nucleosynthesis, we can construct an 
acceptable model of a low-density, open universe. In that model, we take 
approximately equal amounts of baryons and exotic matter (nonbaryonic 
particles), but in quantities that add up to only 20 percent of the matter 
needed to close the universe. This model universe matches all our actual 
observations. On the other hand, a slightly different model of an open 
universe in which all matter is baryonic would also satisfy observations. 
Unfortunately, this alternative model contains too many baryons, violating 
the limits of nucleosynthesis. Thus, any acceptable low-density universe has 
mysterious properties: most of the universe's baryons would remain 
invisible, their nature unknown, and in most models much of the universe's 
matter is exotic.

                      Exotic Particles
Theorists have posited a virtual smorgasbord of objects to account for dark 
matter, although many of them have fallen prey to observational constraints. 
As leading possible candidates for baryonic dark matter, there are black 
holes (large and small), brown dwarfs (stars too cold and faint to radiate), 
sun-size MACHOs, cold gas, dark galaxies and dark clusters, to name only a 
few.

The range of particles that could constitute nonbaryonic dark matter is 
limited only slightly by theorists' imaginations. The particles include 
photinos, neutrinos, gravitinos, axions and magnetic monopoles, among many 
others. Of these, researchers have detected only neutrinos--and whether 
neutrinos have any mass remains unknown. Experiments are under way to detect 
other exotic particles. If they exist, and if one has a mass in the correct 
range, then that particle might pervade the universe and constitute dark 
matter. But these are very large "ifs."

David:
Bachall's and Perlmutter's Cosmic Triangle holds the key in my opinion.  It 
shows a lightweight open Universe being driven by a mysterious anti-gravity 
force.  I think this force is Whirlpower.  It is not really anti-gravity but 
gravity powered by the "whirlfield" as described, Whirlpower.  The Cosmic 
Triangle report shows a flat not curved space and points to the exact 
mistake I am talking about in relation to the cosmological constant.

Vera:
To a great extent, the details of the evolution of galaxies and clusters 
depend on properties of dark matter. Without knowing those properties, it is 
difficult to explain how galaxies evolved into the structures observed 
today. As knowledge of the early universe deepens, I remain optimistic that 
we will soon know much more about both galaxy formation and dark matter.

David:
I am optimistic too.  But as long as the big bang rules as the accepted 
origin of the Universe I don't think we will ever know the  real truth. Only 
when a whirlpool is built and tested by science will we get the data we need 
to understand the spiral galaxy and the hurricane.  Recently PBS announced, 
"almost everything science thought to be true about the vortex has been 
shown to be wrong, and that science needed to got back to the drawing board 
and start all over."

No one has ever built a whirlpool before in all recorded history and tested 
it in a scientific manner, my research shows, across ten thousands archived 
pages and years of work.  Many scientists and top vortex experts have 
confirmed it.

"Build the whirlpool, that's all it talks", I have shouted my Eureka for 
years on the World Wide Web, only to be cursed and called names by know it 
all scientists spouting scientific dogma based on un-proven theory.  But I 
have not given up and never will till I find the data and get the whirlpools 
built and tested in unbiased, multiple, Scientific Method, theorists 
propose, scientists dispose, manner.

Vera:
What we fail to see with our eyes, or detectors, we can occasionally see 
with our minds, aided by computer graphics. Computers now play a key role in 
the search for dark matter. Historically, astronomers have focused on 
observations; now the field has evolved into an experimental science. 
Today's astronomical experimenters sit neither at lab benches nor at 
telescopes but at computer terminals. They scrutinize cosmic simulations in 
which tens of thousands of points, representing stars, gas and dark matter, 
interact gravitationally over a galaxy's lifetime. A cosmologist can tweak a 
simulation by adjusting the parameters of dark matter and then watch what 
happens as virtual galaxies evolve in isolation or in a more realistic, 
crowded universe.

Computer models can thus predict galactic behavior.  For instance, when two 
galaxies suffer a close encounter, violently merging or passing briefly in 
the night, they sometimes spin off long tidal tails. Yet from the models, we 
now know these tails appear only when the dark matter of each galaxy's halo 
is three to 10 times greater than its luminous matter.  Heavier halos 
produce stubbier tails. This realization through modeling has helped 
observational astronomers to interpret what they see and to understand more 
about the dark matter they cannot see.  For the first time in the history of 
cosmology, computer simulations actually guide observations.

New tools, no less than new ways of thinking, give us insight into the 
structure of the heavens. Less than 400 years ago Galileo put a small lens 
at one end of a cardboard tube and a big brain at the other end. In so 
doing, he learned that the faint stripe across the sky, called the Milky 
Way, in fact comprised billions of single stars and stellar clusters. 
Suddenly, a human being understood what a galaxy is. Perhaps in the coming 
century, another--as yet unborn--big brain will put her eye to a clever new 
instrument and definitively answer, What is dark matter?

David:
Like Galileo was scorned by science so am I.  Like Galileo came up with the 
compound lens, I have come up the compound vortex, the whirlpool.  I only 
hope, not like with Galileo, science will listen and test my concept and not 
lock me up for say science is wrong.


                           The Author

VERA RUBIN is a staff member at the Department of Terrestrial Magnetism of 
the Carnegie Institution of Washington, where she has been since 1965. That 
same year, she became the first woman permitted to observe at Palomar 
Observatory. The author of more than 200 papers on the structure of the 
Milky Way, motions within galaxies and large-scale motions in the universe, 
she received Carnegie Mellon University's Dickson Prize for Science in 1994 
and the Royal Astronomical Society's Gold Medal in 1996. President Bill 
Clinton awarded her the National Medal of Science in 1993 and appointed her 
to the President's Committee on the National Medal of Science in 1995.

                            Commentator

David Dennard is not an important person, nor does he have any great titles. 
  He has a dream, a theory, 10,000 archived pages on the Net, years of 
research, concurrence by top vortex experts; and seeks Scientific Method 
disposal or confirmation by the data.
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I hadn't planned on posting this here since I never get any replies, but 
since I did, here it is, my gift to a backwards ignorant an polluted planet.

The Rose

APR 23 2000

David G. Dennard

It grows, coming out from a dense core seemingly like magic, with a swirl 
and a whirl, the beauty is captivating.  The signature of an intelligence so 
simple yet seems so complex it baffles the best of thinkers caught in its 
allure.

Seen throughout nature the pattern repeats itself in all of life and all its 
many forms.  Seen afar in the movement of the stars, seen nearby in the 
pattern of gentle rains and violent storms, seen everywhere.  Not just a 
spiral, the dual radial arm pattern is both simple and complex, has life 
like no mechanical spiral can explain.  Shrouded in mystery one picks it 
apart and try to understand, only to be left with a thorny stem.  One must 
look and behold the total picture and gleen from it what it teaches.


A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.  And there is a rose I have 
discovered undiscovered.  A rose right in plain view not seen.  A rose with 
such beauty it blinds any that have looked in its direction for thousands of 
years.

Where is the whirlpool?  I began my quest.  Where is it?  I want to see if 
anyone built one, a picture, some data, who built it, when, where.  I had a 
dream.

So far, no whirlpool, many spiral vortices, but no whirlpool.  Why has one 
never been built and tested?

Thus the questions went the debates raged, it seemed to make scientists 
uneasy they could not answer my simple question.  So they just made fun of 
me instead.  But steadfast I continued, now relentless to find the 
whirlpool.  And the Whirlpower Team got started.  We built a few models. 
They did have the dual radial arm pattern, just like spiral galaxies and 
hurricanes.  Both recently announced as mysterious by the best of science.

Along this path of thousands of archived pages on science and related lists 
I learned and relearned all the science I was taught in college and saw a 
very simple pattern.  I saw how we were looking at things backwards making 
the simple look complex.  And how just understanding a drop of rain tells 
the story.

And that story now unfolds for you the reader and all, a theory, of how 
everything in the universe works and a way to test it.  The TOE.  The Theory 
of Everything.

The proof is in the pudding.  Theorists propose, scientists dispose, that's 
the Scientific Method.

David G. Dennard
The Phoenix

http://www.whirlpower.cc
The Pearl of Wisdom

whirlpower egroups.com
To Build A Whirlpool


Here is the best work to date I have ever found that gives reference and 
meaning to "The Pearl of Wisdom".

Article by Vera Rubin---Mysterious Dark Matter

Comments by David Dennard---Light on Dark Matter

Vera:
Imagine, for a moment, that one night you awaken abruptly from a dream. 
Coming to consciousness blinking your eyes against the blackness, you find 
that, inexplicably, you are standing alone in a vast, pitch-black cavern. 
Befuddled by this predicament, you wonder: Where am I? What is this space? 
What are its dimensions?

Groping in the darkness, you stumble upon a book of damp matches. You strike 
one; it quickly flares, then fizzles out. Again, you try; again, a flash and 
fizzle. But in that moment, you realize that you can glimpse a bit of your 
surroundings. The next match strike lets you sense faint walls far away. 
Another flare reveals a strange shadow, suggesting the presence of a big 
object. Yet another suggests you are moving--or, instead, the room is moving 
relative to you. With each momentary flare, a bit more is learned.

In some sense, this situation recalls our puzzling predicament on Earth. 
Today, as we have done for centuries, we gaze into the night sky from our 
planetary platform and wonder where we are in this cavernous cosmos. Flecks 
of light provide some clues about great objects in space. And what we do 
discern about their motions and apparent shadows tells us that there is much 
more that we cannot yet see.

David:
That is so beautiful!  And it is not just what we can't see, what we can see 
is just the surface appearance.  The surface appearance of things looks like 
the Sun and the Moon go around the Earth.  But deeper study reveals the 
truth.  Same surface illusion is true of all things in space and in life.  
Can't judge a book by its cover or a   person by the way they look. The 
surface appearance is the "maya" of things.  We must see through surface 
appearances and past our own horizons.  Once is was, "look there is the edge 
of the Earth."  Now it is, "look, there is the edge of the universe."

Vera:
>From every photon we collect from the universe's farthest reaches, we 
struggle to extract information. Astronomy is the study of light that 
reaches Earth from the heavens. Our task is not only to collect as much 
light as possible--from ground- and space-based telescopes--but also to use 
what we can see in the heavens to understand better what we cannot see and 
yet know must be there.

David:
Vera knows we have not seen the edge of the universe.  In fact we could 
build much bigger telescopes and only see a teeny tiny bit of  the universe.

Vera:
Based on 50 years of accumulated observations of the motions of galaxies and 
the expansion of the universe, most astronomers believe that as much as 90 
percent of the stuff constituting the universe may be objects or particles 
that cannot be seen. In other words, most of the universe's matter does not 
radiate--it provides no glow that we can detect in the electromagnetic 
spectrum. First posited some 60 years ago by astronomer Fritz Zwicky, this 
so-called missing matter was believed to reside within clusters of galaxies. 
Nowadays we prefer to call the missing mass "dark matter," for it is the 
light, not the matter, that is missing.

David:
Keyword here, may, be objects unseen.  And no doubt there are.  But the mass 
we really don't see is that of fluid space.  The space between planets, 
thought to a null void by science is actually a fluid, subatomic, 
lightweight, the cosmic soup containing the building blocks of matter.  As 
water is to air, air is to space.  This is most important to understanding 
as far energy is concerned as how light actually travels through space.  It 
is not ether or aether, IMO, it is much more like what science call quanta, 
the fundamental particle, except it is not in the package of energy in the 
photon it is space itself.

Vera:
Astronomers and physicists offer a variety of explanations for this dark 
matter. On the one hand, it could merely be ordinary material, such as 
ultra-faint stars, large or small black holes, cold gas, or dust scattered 
around the universe--all of which emit or reflect too little radiation for 
our instruments to detect. It could even be a category of dark objects 
called MACHOs (Massive Compact Halo Objects) that lurk invisibly in the 
halos surrounding galaxies and galactic clusters. On the other hand, dark 
matter could consist of exotic, unfamiliar particles that we have not 
figured out how to observe. Physicists theorize about the existence of these 
particles, although experiments have not yet confirmed their presence. A 
third possibility is that our understanding of gravity needs a major 
revision--but most physicists do not consider that option seriously.

David:
Bingo!  It is gravity we do not "get".  Gravity and fluid space.  Space must 
be fluid for gravity to have any effect across it.  Yes, lots of stuff we 
can't see too but as far as energy goes we do need to revise our thinking 
back to the Cosmological Constant.  Einstein did his most brilliant work 
when he was just a nobody dropout working as a patent clerk.  He later 
dismissed the cosmological constant calling it his biggest mistake but then 
went back to it again and worked on it all his later years, but died before 
he got it figured.  All energy of motion comes from gravity in the 
Cosmological Constant.

Gravity is "The Origin of Energy".  The latest in from the Chandra X-Ray 
Telescope backs this up.  In Discover Magazine, April 2000, R&D, Article "In 
The Beginning, All Was Blackness", page 16.  Now, you can look at almost all 
science and they say a Big Bang was "In The Beginning".  Folks, who has been 
zooming who?!!  Physicists need to wake up and smell the roses, get past 
know it all scientific dogma based on un-proven Einstein Theory and listen 
to what the man said, why his theory is not correct, and why he went back to 
looking for the Cosmological Constant.

Our science is based on a thermodynamic paradigm that is just the surface 
appearance that heat is a dynamic force.  But really heat is electrostatic 
energy.  Heat is a static event.  Heat sets relative density off balance 
then gravity balances the scales of density.

Stephen Hawking has announced science does not have an understanding of the 
basic fundamentals.  Says, "garbage" to those who say it does.  I think that 
most basic fundamental is what I call "The Pearl of Wisdom" posted at my 
website <http://www.whirlpower.cc> and is about science not understanding 
evaporation and lightspeed are caused by gravity.  You can't get more basic 
than that.

Vera:
In some sense, our ignorance about dark matter's properties has become 
inextricably tangled up with other outstanding issues in cosmology--such as 
how much mass the universe contains, how galaxies formed and whether or not 
the universe will expand forever. So important is this dark matter to our 
understanding of the size, shape and ultimate fate of the universe that the 
search for it will very likely dominate astronomy for the next few decades.

David:
I sure hope we can break through before then.  Time is important. Main 
problem is seeing the Universe as having an amount of mass, as having a 
shape or size, or an ultimate fate.  The universe is infinite.  It has 
always been here and always will be here.  It constantly changes and 
recycles itself.  Asking the wrong question gets one the wrong answer.

                     Observing the Invisible
Understanding something you cannot see is difficult--but not impossible. Not 
surprisingly, astronomers currently study dark matter by its effects on the 
bright matter that we do observe. For instance, when we watch a nearby star 
wobbling predictably, we infer from calculations that a "dark planet" orbits 
around it. Applying similar principles to spiral galaxies, we infer dark 
matter's presence because it accounts for the otherwise inexplicable motions 
of stars within those galaxies.

David:
Here is the crux of the matter.  The wobble.  But is the wobble coming from 
planets?  Does our Sun wobble due to our planets?  What is the wobble?

First thing to realize is there are two basic kinds of wobbles.  The 
balanced wobble of the spin of the star and the unbalanced wobble of the 
variance in the orbital path.  The variance in the orbital path is due to 
the planets.  Much like the wobble in an unbalanced washing machine.  The 
other wobble is the wobble of the balanced spin.  It is the distance off 
dead center of the poles of a star in one revolution.  And that wobble is 
the third note of the cosmic chord, the third wave of precession, and comes 
from the gravity of all the stars and the gravity of all the planets, all 
mass, and gravity in the Infinite Universe.  That is the action that science 
is blind to and must recognize if this planet is to evolve, IMHO.

Stars are very far apart but when viewed in a galaxy as a whole they appear 
very close together.  And they work in beautiful unison with  each other as 
far as maintaining a fluid type wholeness to their movement.

Vera:
When we observe the orbits of stars and clouds of gas as they circle the 
centers of spiral galaxies, we find that they move too quickly. These 
unexpectedly high velocities signal the gravitational tug exerted by 
something more than that galaxy's visible matter. From detailed velocity 
measurements, we conclude that large amounts of invisible matter exert the 
gravitational force that is holding these stars and gas clouds in high-speed 
orbits. We deduce that dark matter is spread out around the galaxy, reaching 
beyond the visible galactic edge and bulging above and below the otherwise 
flattened, luminous galactic disk. As a rough approximation, try to envision 
a typical spiral galaxy, such as our Milky Way, as a relatively flat, 
glowing disk embedded in a spherical halo of invisible material--almost like 
an extremely diffuse cloud.

David:
Sounds like a hurricane to me!  And this tug is Whirlpower, coming from the 
lever action of the wobble of the dense core and whirlpool like action of 
the entire galaxy.  This action is responsible for the dual radial arms. 
These density waves frame drag the entire galaxy.  The gravity causing this 
action comes from the gravity of all the galaxies surrounding the galaxy.

Vera:
Looking at a single galaxy, astronomers see within the galaxy's radius (a 
distance of about 50,000 light-years) only about one tenth of the total 
gravitating mass needed to account for how fast individual stars are 
rotating around the galactic hub.

David:
Hurricanes also are called most mysterious.  Science has added up the forces 
and can only explain the tremendous energy of the hurricane by what is 
called the latent heat theory.  Well, latent heat is not thermodynamic.  
They count the heat of the entire ocean.  But the heat of the ocean is not 
driving the hurricane.  If fact heat is not even causing evaporation.  
Gravity is driving the hurricane as it makes the eye wall wobble and drag 
the bulk of the hurricane with it.  You can see it if you know what to look 
for!

Vera:
In trying to discover the amount and distribution of dark matter in a 
cluster of galaxies, x-ray astronomers have found that galaxies within 
clusters float immersed in highly diffuse clouds of 100-million-degree 
gas--gas that is rich in energy yet difficult to detect. Observers have 
learned to use the x-ray-emitting gas's temperature and extent in much the 
same way that optical astronomers use the velocities of stars in a single 
galaxy. In both cases, the data provide clues to the nature and location of 
the unseen matter.

David:
The main unseen matter is the fluid nature of space itself.  But it  is very 
light weight and subatomic.  Really, space is the fundamental quanta and has 
the matter that is the very building blocks of atomic particles, electrons, 
neutrons, protons; and all matter.  Saul Perlmutter is very close to this 
understanding with his Cosmic Triangle work.  He recognizes the lightweight 
universe but does not yet see the Whirlpower and calls the cosmic driving 
force, anti-gravity.  It is an anti-gravity type action but it is really 
gravity powered relative density displacement and Whirlpower lever action. 
Light itself is gravity powered through fluid space the same way a bubble is 
gravity powered, rising in water.  Any time a void is opened, in bubbles, 
explosions, lightning strikes, vortices, the wobble of planets and stars, 
gravity does everything in its power to shut it down or move the void to a 
space of lesser density.

Mother Nature abhors a vacuum, but she really can't stand a void.

The Cosmological Constant.  The Gravity Paradigm.

Vera:
In a cluster of galaxies, the extent of the x-ray-emitting region and 
temperature of the gas enable us to estimate the amount of gravitating mass 
within the cluster's radius, which measures almost 100 million light-years. 
In a typical case, when we add together the luminous matter and the 
x-ray-emitting hot gas, we are able to sense roughly 20 to 30 percent of the 
cluster's total gravitating mass. The remainder, which is dark matter, 
remains undetected by present instruments.

David:
And will remain undetected I believe, because it is the secondary 
gravitational effect on the horizontal axis that gives the acceleration that 
is not explained by current theories to the spiral galaxies. It is 
Whirlpower.

Vera:
Subtler ways to detect invisible matter have recently emerged. One clever 
method involves spotting rings or arcs around clusters of galaxies. These 
"Einstein rings" arise from an effect known as gravitational lensing, which 
occurs when gravity from a massive object bends light passing by. For 
instance, when a cluster of galaxies blocks our view of another galaxy 
behind it, the cluster's gravity warps the more distant galaxy's light, 
creating rings or arcs, depending on the geometry involved.

Interestingly, the nearer cluster acts as nature's telescope, bending light 
into our detectors--light that would otherwise have traveled elsewhere in 
the universe. Someday we may exploit these natural telescopes to view the 
universe's most distant objects.

David:
The gravity telescope.  But think about the possibility that the warp you 
are seeing is not from the attraction of light by gravity the but the 
repulsion of light by gravity as described in my theory. Einstein's 
prediction of the index is not correct and he stated his theory hinged on 
the accuracy of his prediction.

Vera:
Using computer models, we can calculate the mass of the intervening cluster, 
estimating the amount of invisible matter that must be present to produce 
the observed geometric deflection. Such calculations confirm that clusters 
contain far more mass than the luminous matter suggests.

David:
Or the way you measure is not correct.  If the light is being condensed by 
the repulsion of light by gravity it will compress it. A one sided bent in 
light would be refraction, or what you call deflection. But the fact is, 
refraction (deflection) would not condense the light at all. It would work 
more like a prism and scatter the light.  The confusion here is all about 
fluid space and the null void curved space.

Vera:
Even compact dark objects in our own galaxy can gravitationally lens light. 
When a foreground object eclipses a background star, the light from the 
background star is distorted into a tiny ring, who's brightness far exceeds 
the star's usual brightness. Consequently, we observe an increase, then a 
decrease, in the background star's brightness. Careful analysis of the 
light's variations can tease out the mass of the dark foreground lensing 
object.

David:
I suggest the "tease" is that in the variation of intensity as the motion of 
the foreground and the background, eventually, at a predicted point, will 
add up.  This "tease" relates to the Einstein's exact specification of 1.75 
seconds of an arc he said had to be met exactly is the concept of void 
curved space was to be correct.  He said his theory "hinged" on that 
measurement.

But that measurement has never been met.  It is not accurate in the gravity 
telescope anywhere in space as noted.  This is because gravity repels light, 
not attracts it.  The measurement is actually of the backside of the 
slipstream effect due to gravity's repulsion of light, not gravity bending 
light in.

Similar to this:

Einstein Perspective

    ||||||
    O//|||
    ||||||

Dennard Perspective

    ||||||
    O))|||
    ||||||

The point on the backside of the slipstream ). < right there, is very 
similar to the point /.< right there.   The reason the measurement has 
always come up short is because the angle of the backside of the slipstream 
is just a tiny bit less than the angle would be if Einstein's perspective 
was correct. All because space is fluid, not void.

The reason interferometer tests never showed fluid space is because the 
instruments used were too crude to detect subatomic fluid space.  Einstein 
knew this intuitively and returned to try and figure it in his old age.  By 
then his brilliance had diminished.  And it seems no body ever since has 
really understood what he was talking about to start off with.

It is the difference in a rainbow and a halo.  And a test can be made easily 
by what I call the up and down light test on the vertical axis.  Not like 
the old horizontal axis interferometer tests.  Simply measure the intensity 
of light shinning down in a long vacuum pipe placed vertical to gravity. 
Reverse.  Light pointing away from the center of gravity should be more 
intense.  This can also seen in a common sense way by the fact light bulbs 
can be seen from space, flames point up, and comet tails point away from the 
sun in fluid space.  It is all in understanding fluid space, in 
understanding dark matter.

                       Where Is Dark Matter?
Vera:
Several teams search nightly for nearby lensing events, caused by invisible 
MACHOs in our own Milky Way's halo. The search for them covers millions of 
stars in the Magellanic Clouds and the Andromeda galaxy. Ultimately, the 
search will limit the amount of dark matter present in our galaxy's halo.

Given the strong evidence that spiral and elliptical galaxies lie embedded 
in large dark-matter halos, astronomers now wonder about the location, 
amount and distribution of the invisible material.

David:
Yes, that mysterious halo is the key to it all.  Understanding the 
difference in rainbows and halos is what my work is all about.  Like Dr. 
Hawking says, "the answer is always just over the rainbow."  On my cover 
page, "The Pearl of Wisdom", is just over the rainbow.

Vera:
To answer those questions, researchers compare and contrast observations 
from specific nearby galaxies. For instance, we learn from the motions of 
the Magellanic Clouds, two satellite galaxies gloriously visible in the 
Southern Hemisphere, that they orbit within the Milky Way galaxy's halo and 
that the halo continues beyond the clouds, spanning a distance of almost 
300,000 light-years. In fact, motions of our galaxy's most distant satellite 
objects suggest that its halo may extend twice as far--to 600,000 
light-years.

Because our nearest neighboring spiral galaxy, Andromeda, lies a mere two 
million light-years away, we now realize that our galaxy's halo may indeed 
span a significant fraction of the distance to Andromeda and its halo. We 
have also determined that clusters of galaxies lie embedded in even larger 
systems of dark matter. At the farthest distances for which we can deduce 
the masses of galaxies, dark matter appears to dwarf luminous matter by a 
factor of at least 10, possibly as much as 100.

Overall, we believe dark matter associates loosely with bright matter, 
because the two often appear together. Yet, admittedly, this conclusion may 
stem from biased observations, because bright matter typically enables us to 
find dark matter.

David:
I don't think the data is biased, just the way the light is perceived to be 
attracted by gravity is incorrect and throws everything off.  It is maya, 
surface appearance.  Thus you are getting a kind of reversal in the data 
that shows a sort of mirror reversal of what your data really means. This 
kind of maya tends to run throughout the universe    especially when the 
basic concept of how gravity affects light is    misunderstood.  Same maya 
that fooled our ancestors for a very long time.  Let us be fooled no longer.

Vera:
By meticulously studying the shapes and motions of galaxies over decades, 
astronomers have realized that individual galaxies are actively evolving, 
largely because of the mutual gravitational pull of galactic neighbors. 
Within individual galaxies, stars remain enormously far apart relative to 
their diameters, thus little affecting one another gravitationally.  For 
example, the separation between the sun and its nearest neighbor, Proxima 
Centauri, is so great that 30 million suns could fit between the two. In 
contrast, galaxies lie close together, relative to their diameters--nearly 
all have neighbors within a few diameters. So galaxies do alter one another 
gravitationally, with dark matter's added gravity a major contributor to 
these interactions.

David:
Here we see the proximity of Galaxies compared to the proximity of Stars.  
Would not a better comparison be the proximity of the core of Galaxies to 
the core of Galaxies if one is going to make a comparison?  Or the proximity 
of Galaxies compared to the proximity of Solar Systems?  There I think you 
will find the comparisons more in line.

Vera:
As we watch many galaxies--some growing, shrinking, transforming or 
colliding--we realize that these galactic motions would be inexplicable 
without taking dark matter into account. Right in our own galactic 
neighborhood, for instance, such interactions are under way. The Magellanic 
Clouds, our second nearest neighboring galaxies, pass through our galaxy's 
plane every billion years. As they do, they mark their paths with tidal 
tails of gas and, possibly, stars. Indeed, on every passage, they lose 
energy and spiral inward. In less than 10 billion years, they will fragment 
and merge into the Milky Way.

David:
I think they will and can be explained by Whirlpower.  Much like a hurricane 
looses strength as it looses water vapor mass as it goes over land, it 
shrinks and spirals inward.  When mass is the factor in power gain or loss, 
gravity has to be the factor of power.  You don't get more power to a wheel 
running on inertia by adding weight!  You don't take away power from a wheel 
running on inertia by removing weight!  Just the opposite.  Oh, how that 
"maya" can plays tricks!

Vera:
Recently astronomers identified a still nearer neighboring galaxy, the 
Sagittarius dwarf, which lies on the far side of the Milky Way, close to its 
outer edge. (Viewed from Earth, this dwarf galaxy appears in the 
constellation Sagittarius.) As it turns out, gravity from our galaxy is 
pulling apart this dwarf galaxy, which will cease to exist as a separate 
entity after several orbits. Our galaxy itself may be made up of dozens of 
such previous acquisitions.

Similarly, the nearby galaxy M31 and the Milky Way are now hurtling toward 
each other at the brisk clip of 130 kilometers (81 miles) per second. As 
eager spectators, we must watch this encounter for a few decades to know if 
M31 will strike our galaxy or merely slide by. If they do collide, we will 
lose: the Milky Way will merge into the more massive M31. Computer models 
predict that in about four billion years the galactic pair will become one 
spherical galaxy. Of course, by then our sun will have burned out--so others 
in the universe will have to enjoy the pyrotechnics.

In many ways, our galaxy, like all large galaxies, behaves as no gentle 
neighbor. It gobbles up nearby companions and grinds them into building 
blocks for its own growth. Just as Earth's continents slide beneath our 
feet, so, too, does our galaxy evolve around us. By studying the spinning, 
twisting and turning motions and structures of many galaxies as they hurtle 
through space, astronomers can figure out the gravitational forces required 
to sustain their motions--and the amount of invisible matter they must 
contain.

David:
Here Vera points to the solution.  The motion of the spiral galaxy holds the 
key.  I think this is the same motion in the hurricane and the whirlpool.  
Same action, different medium.  I think it is the    gravitation force of 
Whirlpower that is driving the galaxies, not   mysterious dark matter.  But, 
there is more matter than we can see, and space itself is fluid subatomic 
matter.  My theory states a vacuum is not a void.  A vacuum is something not 
nothing.  Nothing does not exist.  Even zero is a real number, a real point. 
  Without zero all our measurements would be off and our building would fall 
down.  Saved by zero.  Zero Point Energy.

Vera:
How much dark matter does the universe contain? The destiny of the universe 
hinges on one still unknown parameter: the total mass of the universe.  If 
we live in a high-density, or "closed," universe, then mutual gravitational 
attraction will ultimately halt the universe's expansion, causing it to 
contract--culminating in a big crunch, followed perhaps by re-expansion. If, 
on the other hand, we live in a low-density, or "open," universe, then the 
universe will expand forever.

David:
I think the Universe is infinite and will and always has been here. The 
total mass can never be measured.  Nor does the universe have an edge or an 
age.  Show me what happens at the edge of the universe, and I'll show you 
what happens when you fall off the edge of the Earth.  Same difference.

Vera:
Observations thus far suggest that the universe--or, at least, the region we 
can observe--is open, forever expanding. When we add up all the luminous 
matter we can detect, plus all the dark matter that we infer from 
observations, the total still comes to only a fraction--perhaps 20 
percent--of the density needed to stop the universe from expanding forever.

I would be content to end the story there, except that cosmologists often 
dream of, and model, a universe with "critical" density--meaning one that is 
finely balanced between high and low density. In such a universe, the 
density is just right. There is enough matter to slow the universe's 
continuous expansion, so that it eventually coasts nearly to a halt. Yet 
this model does not describe the universe we actually measure. As an 
observer, I recognize that more matter may someday be detected, but this 
does not present sufficient reason for me to adopt a cosmological model that 
observations do not yet require.

David:
I think infinity comes pretty close to that concept.  Infinity can not 
expand or contract.  It just forever is.  But really the Infinite Universe 
constantly recycles itself.  The burning bush that does not consume itself 
is The Infinite Universe and cannot be defined.

Vera:
Another complicating factor to take into account is that totally dark 
systems may exist--that is, there may be agglomerations of dark matter into 
which luminous matter has never penetrated. At present, we simply do not 
know if such totally dark systems exist because we have no observational 
data either to confirm or to deny their presence.

CONTINUED in Part 2 of The Rose
________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 19:01:15 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC - "ILOVEYOU" hit here!
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The love of money makes people kill to get it, and send viruses.  Greed and 
lust, pollution and illness, have taken down countless civilizations.  The 
Earth is Ancient, sea shells are in the Rocky Mountains, lava spews out 
early failure.  And on it goes, in the Infinite Fluid Universe.

David


>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: OFF TOPIC - "ILOVEYOU" hit here!
>Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 16:54:46 -0400
>
>The "ILOVEYOU" virus is for real. I just got an e-mail message with the
>virus attached from a friend of mine. I called him and so did fifty other
>people. Fortunately for me, I use old-fashioned Eudora Lite e-mail, and I
>process the mail in ASCII with my own programs, so I am immune to this
>class of viruses. I gather this virus spread rapidly because so many people
>use MS Outlook and Outlook Express. We need digital bio-diversity. Putting
>the same software on millions of computers is like planting every field for
>hundreds of kilometers around with the same strain of wheat. One bacteria
>comes along and bam - everyone's crop is wiped out.
>
>Some expert on CNN.com is quoted:
>
>	He estimated $100 million in software damage and lost commerce had been
>	caused by 9 a.m. Thursday in North America alone and predicted the
>	price tag would exceed $1 billion by Monday morning.
>
>That sounds exaggerated, although the ILOVEYOU does wipe out files, and
>many man-hours will be spent fixing it. It hit the U.S. Congress and the
>U.K. House of Commons.
>
>The people selling anti-virus software will make a fortune in the next few
>weeks.
>
>- Jed
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 21:07:53 2000
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Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:02:55 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
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Hi David. Since you are apparently determined to post your stuff in science
groups, and since you are constantly complaining that people ignore your
posts, I thought I would not be out of line to point out to you that your
failure to speak the language of science, and, in particular, your failure
to address *obvious* scientific objections to your theories, is why your
posts are mostly ignored. When you say, for example, that gravity does not
attract light, but instead repels it, you are obligated at that point to
address the well-known experimental results that seem to contradict your
assertion. Those results are very old, and are taught to every schoolboy
who studies physics at the high school level or beyond. In brief, Einstein,
as part of his general theory of relativity, predicted that light rays
passing near massive bodies would be bent *toward* those bodies. To test
this theory, a British expedition was dispatched to Africa in 1919, to
observe a predicted total eclipse of the sun, and they observed that the
apparent positions of stars just before being occulted by the solar disk
was *farther out* than the true positions of those stars, thereby proving
that the light from the stars had been bent toward the sun, rather than
away from it. If the light were bent away from the sun, then the apparent
position of the star, as determined by the direction in which our
telescopes have to be pointed to observe the star, would be closer to the
sun than the true position of the star. But that was the opposite of what
was observed. What this means is that your theory appears to have been
refuted by experiments that are known to any person with a strong
scientific background, and when you state such opinions to a scientific
audience without saying a single word about those experimental results,
people simply assume that you don't know what you are talking about, and
tune you out. --Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 21:33:22 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 21:28:52 PDT
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This is explained in THE ROSE.  Einstein's exact specifications are not met 
in that measurement.  I do not question the test measures a pulling inward 
appearance from our point of view.  But a pulling inward can happen two 
ways.  As decribed by my diagrams.

I get more posts on any list than any person does.  There are several in 
action right now.  With those speaking up for my work.

No, I don't do "physics speak", I do common sense speak.  Now that flat 
space has been proven it shows the old void curved space theory needs to be 
disposed.  It really shows space is flat, fluid, infinite, not curved, void, 
finite.   Which is what I have been saying all along.  It is just common 
sense.

David


>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:02:55 -0500
>
>Hi David. Since you are apparently determined to post your stuff in science
>groups, and since you are constantly complaining that people ignore your
>posts, I thought I would not be out of line to point out to you that your
>failure to speak the language of science, and, in particular, your failure
>to address *obvious* scientific objections to your theories, is why your
>posts are mostly ignored. When you say, for example, that gravity does not
>attract light, but instead repels it, you are obligated at that point to
>address the well-known experimental results that seem to contradict your
>assertion. Those results are very old, and are taught to every schoolboy
>who studies physics at the high school level or beyond. In brief, Einstein,
>as part of his general theory of relativity, predicted that light rays
>passing near massive bodies would be bent *toward* those bodies. To test
>this theory, a British expedition was dispatched to Africa in 1919, to
>observe a predicted total eclipse of the sun, and they observed that the
>apparent positions of stars just before being occulted by the solar disk
>was *farther out* than the true positions of those stars, thereby proving
>that the light from the stars had been bent toward the sun, rather than
>away from it. If the light were bent away from the sun, then the apparent
>position of the star, as determined by the direction in which our
>telescopes have to be pointed to observe the star, would be closer to the
>sun than the true position of the star. But that was the opposite of what
>was observed. What this means is that your theory appears to have been
>refuted by experiments that are known to any person with a strong
>scientific background, and when you state such opinions to a scientific
>audience without saying a single word about those experimental results,
>people simply assume that you don't know what you are talking about, and
>tune you out. --Mitchell Jones
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 22:09:56 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 21:37:19 PDT
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Bubble Up!

"It's the fizz in the physics"


>From: "Anna M*" <pantheon ix.netcom.com>
>Reply-To: Antigravity egroups.com
>To: <Antigravity egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Antigravity] The Sound Of One Hand Clapping
>Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 21:07:04 -0700
>
>Dirigo,
>In a defense of David's claim , I think we need to understand a particular
>principle of physics which may clarify your and everyone else thinking 
>about
>gravity "repelling" gases, vapor, etc.  A graphic model will serve to
>explain:
>Consider a glass of beer resting on a table.  Bubbles form in the liquid 
>(we
>need not concern ourselves about the process), and as soon as a bubble is
>able to detach itself from the glass surface, it rises to the top of the
>beer.  This is caused by gravity, but it has nothing to do with any kind of
>repulsive force.  You showed a kind of understanding when you commented 
>that
>gravity pushes/pulls the more dense material beneath the less dense 
>material
>(or some such).  What is REALLY happening is that gravity attracts both 
>beer
>and bubbles, but its attractive force on the beer is stronger than that on
>the bubbles (because of its density).  The glass of beer simply moves 
>toward
>an equilibrium state of minumum potential energy, and this state is 
>achieved
>when all of the liquid in the glass lies below all of the gas.  Hence the
>rising bubbles are simply responding to the force which is moving the 
>system
>to a minimum energy state.
>
>The same principle applies to all of the examples you mentioned.  Nothing
>that I can see in this explanation would suggest that gravity REPELS 
>lighter
>substances, such as light, which has almost no mass compared to other 
>things
>that are attracted by gravity.  Nevertheless, the evidence is extremely
>strong that gravity does indeed attract what little mass/energy there is
>contained in light.  Eddington confirmed this while Einstein was still a
>young man, and this success was responsible in large measure for 
>catapulting
>Einstein to the lofty position that he maintained until his death many 
>years
>later.
>
>As David  lacks a formal scientific background , in view of the above I
>believe that major problem we have here is mainly the terminology , .
>
>If we are a bit more tolerant and forgiving we may see that there is more 
>to
>his claim than we are wiling to admit...
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Anna
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
>   From: dirigo34 aol.com
>   To: Antigravity egroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 8:06 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Antigravity] The Sound Of One Hand Clapping
>
>
>   So are you saying that in the absense of gravity heat will not move?
>   If so, it's going to get awful cold up on ISS. What actually happens is
>   heat doesn't move predominately up as when on earth, but moves
>   out in all direction driven by thermal gradients.
>
>   GO Science GO.
>
>   Dirigo
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 22:46:38 2000
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From: "John Collins" <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
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> Continued - The Rose Part 2

What is this guy on?  He rambles on and on about whirlpools and throws in 
bits and pieces from various third rate philosophies - and as for living in 
caves, he's welcome.  I prefer the comforts of life and if I could earn some 
money from discovering a source of free energy and if I could keep sufficient 
for myself and my family and could then afford to give some away to anyone I 
felt deserved assistance for research or whatever, so so much the better.  
Human nature is competitive and it includes a built in mechanism to better 
itself, to win!  You may not think that a desirable trait but its there and its 
what made mankind the boss.  You can give away your technology but how 
much more satisfying to make money and then be able to help those that 
you want to help in anyway you wish.

John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 23:31:51 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: THE ROSE (part 2)
Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 23:03:04 PDT
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It makes no common sense a whirlpool has never been built by man in all 
recorded history.  It is just common sense to build one.

There is no free energy.  It all depends on how it is collected.

What am I on.  Endorsement from top scientists and engineers in Sweden, 
France, England, Australia, U.S.A. and more joining every day.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: "John Collins" <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: THE ROSE (part 2)
>Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 06:40:50 +0100
>
>
> > Continued - The Rose Part 2
>
>What is this guy on?  He rambles on and on about whirlpools and throws in
>bits and pieces from various third rate philosophies - and as for living in
>caves, he's welcome.  I prefer the comforts of life and if I could earn 
>some
>money from discovering a source of free energy and if I could keep 
>sufficient
>for myself and my family and could then afford to give some away to anyone 
>I
>felt deserved assistance for research or whatever, so so much the better.
>Human nature is competitive and it includes a built in mechanism to better
>itself, to win!  You may not think that a desirable trait but its there and 
>its
>what made mankind the boss.  You can give away your technology but how
>much more satisfying to make money and then be able to help those that
>you want to help in anyway you wish.
>
>John
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 01:59:23 2000
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Hi John,

>What is this guy on?  

He's on his own ego.

Regards,
Fred

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 02:13:59 2000
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Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 14:15:17 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
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At 01:04 PM 5/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Men gave their lives for us to be free.  How can we not give what we can for 
>a cleaner world.  Actually I think it is kind of disgusting for someone to 
>think they can actually own the energy revolution anyway.
>
>David
>

While I tend to agree with your sentiments here, I have to ask, what energy
revolution? Everyone is still using the old standbys oil, coal, nuclear,
hydro, solar, wind, and geothermal aren't they?

I don't see anyone using Newman machines, Watson RMOG's, Dennard
Whirlpools, CF devices, Glow discharge devices, BLP plasmas, or any other
unconventional power sources to generate usable power.

Right now it's all, to abuse a term, vaporware.

The "energy revolution" doesn't exist. Maybe someday soon it will. Maybe not.

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 02:31:16 2000
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Lynn -

>Right now it's all, to abuse a term, vaporware.


So how about those vaporizing carbs?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 03:47:07 2000
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Folks,

These people are not idiots.  They represent only a few of the positive 
comments I am getting lately, and I did not even begin to go back though all 
my 10,000 archived pages to get more.  Some are tops is the field of 
Schauberger vortex science.  Some are top physics students.  An entire Hagh 
School has just announed they will build whirlpower.  Others are making the 
announcment daily now.  It won't be long.  Dr. Yasmin Walter, theoretical 
astrophysicist, has just joined the Whirlpower Team and taken my 10,000 
pages to a siminar, including the ones here. You folks are famous!  :)

Interesting how you can even give you best and some people will find a way 
to put that down.  No wonder the world is so polluted.

The proof of flat space is all it took.  Proves the foundation of Whirlpower 
Theory.

David
Phoenix Rising
"The Wild Card"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Press Release            Whirlpower Declaration

Apr 30 2000               To Build A Whirlpool

To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern:

>From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group:

This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool built and 
tested by science.  After considerable research it has been shown that a 
whirlpool has never been built by man before.  It is our opinion that one 
should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general public.

The research on this goes back several years on the internet and many, many, 
years by myself and several people on this list.  I began by trying to find 
the whirlpools in the world after being inspired by a dream.  This search 
has led to this theory and call for a whirlpool to be built in an unbiased, 
multiple, Scientific Method, theorists propose, scientists dispose, test.  
This information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower Declaration stating 
the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way that it will generate 
electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean water in the process!

Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving the 
pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by the 
pollution and danger of current energy sources.  This is not a request for 
cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however those 
interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help support our 
efforts.

Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature.  This 
pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar system, 
the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic.  It is seen 
in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence.

Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the world 
we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few years 
ago.  Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated, "scientists are going to 
have to give up their most precious beliefs" in the ABC News Transcript 
posted at my website.  Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest of this new 
understanding and predicted many of the discoveries long before they were 
announced.  Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter (Rubin), the 
"Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall and Perlmutter), and the slowing down of the 
speed of light (Hau), are all predicted by the relative density displacement 
basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the fluid nature of 
space.  And the very latest announcement of the proof of flat space.

Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has weathered 
the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are finally starting 
to see the possibility.

All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a 
scientific manner.  We are asking any and all who may be interested to try 
it.  Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have built 
several small models that show the action I have described, and we have 
other tests of principle models by people in our group.  These appear to be 
the first whirlpools ever built by man.  We are working on building our next 
whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on this has been done 
in public domain and we want this to be a public effort and available for 
all to use.  Please help us if you can.

All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are some of 
the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science.  We welcome 
any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being.

Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments.

Thank you for your consideration,

David G. Dennard
The Phoenix
655 Doyle LN
Dixon Ca USA 95620

http://www.whirlpower.cc
daviddennard hotmail.com
whirlpower egroups.com

Contact Phone  707-678-0402

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study of 
Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of interest by 
many mainstream scientists.  I guess it's just a bit too revolutionary 
(forgive the pun) for some.  You don't have to have a string of 
qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with a 
huge scientific breakthrough.  The guy who thought up the theory of plate 
tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right.  So don't 
be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your 
vision, David, you may well have the last laugh.

I hope you get the scientific support you deserve

Bill Bimson
Senior Experimental Officer
Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre
Univerity of Liverpool
L69 3BX
England

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago when I 
first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger.  I have an active and 
avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up the challenge 
to further my understanding in this most  intriguing of ideas.

I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end I see 
lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the 
Whirlpower theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based 
machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth, 
extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations.

Neil Simmonds
nsimmonds yahoo.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am studying 
vortex motion.  This could also apply to vortices driven by gravity.  I have 
looked at your site.  You have my full support.

Richard Cheney
RichardCHENEY leggott.ac.uk

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in large 
scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test Whirlpower 
soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary details. I 
will also try to help any other person that tries to do the same. And as an 
ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness person or what 
ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with the Whirlpower 
ideas!

Curt Hallberg
Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html
http://www.newphys.se
qrt.o.tina swipnet.se

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As theories get more complex, the more the parameters of what will be 
significant are determined by existing theory...

...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data and an 
alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a new 
paradigm is acknowledged.

Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are necessary 
for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also helps to build 
an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in the old 
theory.

An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same (this is 
after all what this site and many others try to do)

Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can afford to 
throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a whirlpool 
effect.

Andre
aw49 pixie.co.za

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard writing 
to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics bashing.  He 
is truely on to something most of those best minds could only say poo or 
huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out.

What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE! I'm a 
simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN THIS!!

I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want to 
admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE!

...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the upper 
pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable once the 
process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle the 
vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different ways 
(ha.haa) -

Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet in my 
kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple 
WhirlPower!, but I can feel it works  /  Big time  / the Bigger the better!!

steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall
ekwall2 diac.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David 
Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David, from time 
to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought, questioning the 
amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the vortex. But then 
my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David really is on to 
something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system has potential. It 
surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as impossible. Just 
think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on their first flying 
machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David, but now airplanes 
are a major means of transportation!

My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work, but my 
intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a physicist, I do 
not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior to be 
able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal etc.

David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other people 
say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams.

Edward Maesen
http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand 
how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will 
stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine, 
Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in 
Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in 
its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern. One has 
to see it to understand it.

Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like 
hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have a 
spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts.  This 
more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a 
harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside.

David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained last 
discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool / hurricane's 
power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this spiral form 
has two components.  As he says it, "that of chaos and order, and how the 
sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that drags a huge 
donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from Nature, The 
God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to 
whirlpools".

The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and 
could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to 
physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's 
dream into reality.

Cédric Mannu
cmannu eternite.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way in the 
three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met with 
much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that this 
theory would not work.

Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a huge 
whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond the 
surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one must 
understand the nature of gravity.

Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new 
understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that somebody 
builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the nature of 
the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists and 
researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the 
universe, and the role gravity has in it.

I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower I put 
together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc

David Hubbard
dhubcal i-cafe.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious R&D, I 
myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do vote for 
serious research on David's whirlpool technology.

Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any scientist 
not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then!

To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is still 
flat!

Hector D Perez
ARK RESEARCH
arkresearch hotmail.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a novelist, a 
writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human nature and the study 
thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce to the experts and authorities, 
i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla.

I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious in his 
fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity of the highest 
order. Ironically, this concept has been presented to him  much in the same 
manner as Einstein's "theorems", purportedly gleaned in a Theta state.

At the advent of the 21st century, it would certainly be prudent for 
"modern" science to exercise a more flexible attitude and approach as we 
reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, will we - as a collective whole 
- (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to perhaps glimpse and perceive The 
raison d'être. I definitely encourage further in-depth exploration of THE 
WHIRLPOOL THEORY.

Carole Fox-Breeding
aka Marguerite McCall
Las Vegas, Nevada
Author--The Heiresses
Angel Trilogy Series

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory.  Though I am 
only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this concept could work.  
It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me that nobody has done 
any research on it until now.  Today in Geography we were watching videos on 
tornados and hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your theory as I 
saw cows and houses fly past on the screen.  Your theory has definetly given 
me a lot to think about!  I hope that you get the support that you need from 
the rest of the scientific community.

Good luck!

~Marisa
M_Demers telus.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Whirlpool Theory provides an interesting, and as yet untapped, pathway 
to understanding our own universe in greater detail.  It is my hope that the 
Scientific Community, the information technology field in particular, will 
find the potential value of such experiments. The simplicity of this idea 
alone should cause "Science" to step back and reexamine where we are and 
where we are going.  Because in the end, the universe operates as simply as 
possible, it is humanity that adds the complexity.

Russ Rogers
russr planetcable.net
http://www.ducktank.net
International Who's Who of Information Technology

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After going through the theory slowly, I saw that this is quite possible 
indeed, and if it has the rewards it is perceived to have, I don't know why 
the hell someone doesn't do something about it and try it out in practice to 
a high degree of accuracy. It could change a whole lot, and if it doesn't, 
we don't lose anything, but we gain a whole lot of knowledge.

But after reading the theory, I understood how it works...quite simple in 
concept, but has huge implications, and could give scientists a reason to go 
to work every morning to rethink their previous theories.

If it's a vote you want, you got it from me. But I really hope these votes 
help. I understand that the least we can do to help is vote, whilst you are 
trying other ways to get it implemented in practice.

If it helps us understand Hurricans, Tornadoes and our Milky Way itself, 
more clearly,  it has all the more reason to be implemented in practice with 
the help of other people interested or able to do so. It's probably the fear 
of having to rewrite other theories, that keeps them from doing it ! :o/

Lawrence D' Costa
solarenigma hotmail.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am an inquisitive thinker with a love of physics. I feel that the work 
that David Dennard and the many years of exhaustive time should be put to 
the test. I feel strongly that a large whirlpool should be constructed so 
that his theories on Whirlpower can be tested properly. The building of a 
whirlpool has my full backing and I hope that others step up to the plate 
and back him too. This undertaking will not be very expensive and could 
yield a great deal of useful information. Right or wrong, we all stand to 
benefit.

Al Tillis
North Carolina, USA

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am in agreement that a Whirlpower unit as you describe should be built.  
The processes involve 3 separate orthogonal movements - which for me 
strongly indicate the potential for tapping the universal energy fabric. 
Good wishes and success with your project.

Andrew King
andrew.king dhuru.demon.co.uk

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a 29 year old construction worker, and like David and others on this 
list I have no formal training in any of the many branches of science, but a 
few years ago I realized what I had always desired to do, understand our 
universe. Since then I have tried to catch up on what has already been 
discovered to be fact and ponder the questions that arise from every new 
discovery that is made as technology advances, and theorize along the way. 
At first I didn't think much about Whirlpower, but as a result of David's 
persistence, I finally gave in and listened.  And after some crude 
experiments on my own I became enthralled with whirlpools.

The question I keep asking myself is why.  Why does the vortex rotate?
Why does it rotate in a certain direction?  Why does a very small output 
from a container cause the entire contents to spin?  Why does the vortex 
wobble?  David's theory gives us a possible explanation,  but without actual 
testing calculations there isn't any proof. Just as all other great thinkers 
in history saw what everyone else took for granted and asked "why", Galileo 
and the orbits of the planets, Newton and moving objects, Einstein and time, 
so David Dennard is showing us the whirlpool and compelling us to ask why, I 
hate to think that some very important clues to understanding our universe 
weren't studied because of the complacency of the scientific community, and 
the ones with the resources to study them.

John Hardin
DeSoto Missouri
E-mail:  Budove58 juno.com
(636)337-7164

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I support the Whirlpower Team to find a workable system that can be used on 
a large basis or, perhaps more important, for home use. Except for magnetics 
and a few other ideas there aren't many ideas on the board that are 
adaptable for home use. The fact that we are so dependent on oil and gas 
(and nuclear) is ridiculous. Light, magnets, WATER and gravity are just a 
few of the options we have. Self-sustaining whirlpower is a most promising 
way to go.

Dave
davem tbcnet.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I give my wholehearted support.  I also want to go on your record
that I believe that your "whirlpool" is the single generalized concept upon
which reality is built (the "vortex" seen by the mystics throughout time),
of which your backyard water-variety would then be a functional abstract.  A
fractal, if you will.

Best of luck getting power *and* clean water out of it.

Jhan Davis

*************************************************


Congratulations to Team Whirlpower for all the hard work and wonderful
things that have been happening to forward new discoveries in this line of 
inquiry.  I firmly believe that there should most certainly be more research 
and development time invested into whirlpower.  More and more information, 
even on a daily basis, is coming to light and needs to be studied by those 
filled with a passion for knowledge and those wishing to submerge themselves 
in the mysteries of life and the universe.  You've got my vote for things to 
move forward in this wonderful line of research. Keep up all the good work!  
I'll see about doing my part!  As a matter of fact, I've been working with 
computer programming and graphic design for some time now (though I 
willingly admit that I'm not the best in my field) and if some of my talent
can be used to help design some sort of graphic demonstration of the
processes and theories being tested...

You can count on me to do what I can.

Chris Rabideau (Asmyth)
stirbei77 c...

****************************************************

You can count myself and Mangas in as well. I too don't understand how 
others don't get this. Seems pretty simple and natural to us. I am working 
on getting a high school project going over the summer. That way there's 
more money spread around evenly for trying to build models. Hang in there, 
it will happen!!

--Michelle : )
fiddlette webtv.net
Golden, Colorado

*****************************************************
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 05:15:18 2000
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David wrote:

I hadn't planned on posting this here since I never get
any replies, but since I did, here it is, my gift to a
backwards ignorant and polluted planet.

The Rose ...

Vera: Without exceeding the limits of nucleosynthesis, ...
Of these, researchers have detected only neutrinos--and
whether neutrinos have any mass remains unknown.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

What this means is that your theory appears to have been
refuted by experiments  ...

Hi David,

Well, you certainly received replies this time.

Going beyond Mitchell, I have seen no evidence that
"researchers have detected ... neutrinos."

Experimental results can have a variety of reasonable
(plausible) interpretations, but the results are the place
where discussion should start.  Nevertheless, I enjoyed
The Rose.

Jack Smith


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Conventional energy revolution
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Lynn Kurtz wrote:

>While I tend to agree with your sentiments here, I have to ask, what energy
>revolution? Everyone is still using the old standbys oil, coal, nuclear,
>hydro, solar, wind, and geothermal aren't they?
>
>I don't see anyone using Newman machines, Watson RMOG's, Dennard
>Whirlpools, CF devices, Glow discharge devices, BLP plasmas . . .

Actually, we are in the middle of a quiet conventional energy revolution on
two fronts: 1. Distributed co-generation of electricity with natural gas.
2. Wind power. Wind generation capacity is now as big as nuclear power was
in the late 1960s, and it is growing rapidly. The cost continues to fall,
and in some locations it is already cheaper than gas, coal or other
conventional sources. An independent power company in New York recently
announced plans to build a wind farm with the latest advanced European
turbines. The tax breaks of the 1980s created a lot of junk technology and
short-lived, overpriced wind farms, but they also led to swift progress. In
the end incentives by the government, EPRI and  industry paid off, and wind
is now making large to clean energy and to the economy. This shows that
government and industry planning & coordination can work, with conventional
technology.


>The "energy revolution" doesn't exist. Maybe someday soon it will. Maybe not.

I agree. At best we have a "physics revolution" with cold fusion. All of
these other claims await independent verification, to put it politely.
Kurtz might say that CF also needs verification, but I think it is over the
hump because many labs have verified it at high S/N ratios. Please note
that how many labs and how high the S/N ratio should be is a judgement
call. I am satisfied with 5 or 10 top quality replications, and I think
there have been ~200. Kurtz may be holding out for 2,000 replications, or
200,000.

The CF physics revolution may not be accepted by mainstream scientists for
decades, or it may be forgotten altogether. Even if it is accepted, it
might not lead to a practical source of energy, but I expect it will.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 07:34:35 2000
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This is getter seriously off topic, but David Dennard writes fatuous nonsense:

	The love of money is the root of all evil.

And much that is good, too. In any case, money is here to stay, human
nature is not likely to change, so instead of complaining about it, we
should be pragmatic and channel people's love of money into projects that
fix the energy crisis and solve other social problems.


	Caves may be a lot better to  what we and our children will face
	in the near future if this civilization  continues its present
	course. . . .

How would we force people back into caves? Even if this option was
desirable, how could it be implemented?

Regarding the ILOVEYOU virus, Dennard wrote:

	The love of money makes people kill to get it, and send viruses.

Nonsense. The profit motive has nothing to do with computer viruses. There
is no money to be made by sabotaging a million computers. The reward is the
secret thrill of vandalism. Some antisocial teenage techno-weenie in the
Phillippines who "does not like school" is reveling in his power to disrupt
the lives of millions of people. In a way, he is not that different from
Bill Gates, who is reportedly an anti-social overgrown teenager "without
adult supervision" (Robert Cringely),  whose Win 98 program crashes once or
twice a day in hundreds of millions of offices.

The FBI is reportedly looking for "ILOVEYOU" author. I wonder what they
plan to do if they find him. Third-world legal systems are sometimes behind
the times, and it may not be a crime to write a disruptive program there.
Even if it is, could he be extradited?

- Jed

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I wrote:

>The FBI is reportedly looking for "ILOVEYOU" author. I wonder what they
>plan to do if they find him. Third-world legal systems are sometimes behind
>the times, and it may not be a crime to write a disruptive program there.
>Even if it is, could he be extradited?

Oops. I was wrong about that. The Wired Magazine web site says, "the
Philippines is an MLAT country, meaning it has entered into a mutual legal
assistance treaty with the United States."

- Jed

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Things are flying along here at a snail's pace on this project.  As you may
recall, the first pair of Dewars I purchased were bad.  I received the new,
tested, replacement Dewars from Pope Scientific a week ago and I have just
finished a series of tests which indicates that only one of the new ones is
like it should be....like Mills' were.  The other has about 30% worse
insulating qualities, which works out to a residual gas pressure inside of
a few millitorr....it should be ~10^-7 torr according to Pope's lit.

I spoke with them today about their testing procedure and there is an
obvious scenario that fits with the fact that these Dewars pass their test
and fail mine:

They fill the Dewars with liquid nitrogen for their test.  If the major
residual gas is water vapor (which is a strong possibility) it will be
quickly cryopumped by the LN2 temperatures and the vacuum will improve
dramatically...but just for the duration of their test.  My tests are
conducted within 25C of room temperature.

I explained this concept to the customer service rep there at Pope but I
got the distinct feeling I was wasting my breath.  On the plus side,
however, they are happy to send me a replacement Dewar, which I should have
tomorrow if the shipping goes as planned.

We'll see how it performs.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 10:12:47 2000
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Ed Storms writes:
>
>         Now there's the rub.  This is one of many examples of people
>         doing basic work being screwed by people who later turn the idea
>         into a commercial product.
>
> In this case, that's unfair to Morse, Vail, Straight and the others who set
> up the first telegraph networks. They did a lot of work after borrowing the
> basic technical ideas from Henry. They took risks and made expenses
> mistakes. For example, when they began laying the first long distance line
> from Baltimore to Washington, they tried to put the wire underground in
> conduits. This did not work. After much delay and expense, they hung the
> wire from polls instead. This kind of solution did not require Henry's
> knowledge of science, but it did take innovation and clear thinking. They
> were starting from zero in a world where there were no electric wires
> strung outside for any purpose. They had feel their way by trial and error.
> The NHE program and other CF R&D projects have been scuttled by problems as
> prosaic as leaky underground conduits.

I do not intend to diminish the creativity and effort needed to bring a
product to market.  Such people deserve to be rewarded. However, the basic
studies and the people who do this kind of work are generally are not made
part of this process, sometimes for good reason, i.e. the inventors were
crazy.  The computer industry, has grown partly because the people doing the
basic work, i.e. the programing, have been made part of the process and are
well rewarded.  Consequently, many of the problems, like where to put the
telegraph wires so to speak, are solved without a lot of trial and error
because people having a basic understanding are involved and their advice is
take seriously.

>
>         Actually, Robert Park is a friend because he keeps the "big
>         boys" from taking an interest too soon.
>
> The more people who take an interest, the better. You want white-hot
> interest, thousands of phone calls, crowds of people swamping you product
> roll-out in Madison Square Garden. You want every news agency and financial
> talk show begging for an interview. Pretty soon industrial corporations
> will bid up licenses to manufacture the gadgets.

Yes, I agree this kind of interest would be good at some point.  However, if
it comes too soon, it can distract from trying to understand the process and
turn it into a useful product.  I suggest each of these stages needs to occur
in the proper order for the process to be successful. Otherwise it is too easy
to lose control of the idea and end up with nothing while the money gabbers
make a mess.

>
>         Our problem with cold fusion is different.  We do not even have the
>         basic information much less a commercial product.
>
> Some people do, or did. Toyota and CETI could have launched a commercial &
> technological revolution with the products they had five years ago. The
> first generation of transistors and AT&T were less reliable. Martin
> Fleischmann told me that they had continuously boiling cells and other
> devices which could have been demonstrated and licensed. He feels they were
> a few years away from commercial reliability, and well past the "demo or
> die" phase. He should know; he has a lot of experience working in industry.
> The decision to abandon the project was political. After Minoru Toyoda
> died, support within the company collapsed and someone pulled the plug.
> Toyota and CETI pissed away the biggest opportunities in the history of
> commerce. BLP is probably doing that now, with a marketing strategy which
> cannot work.

My studies of the Pons-Fleischmann work indicate to me that they were not even
close to a useful device. They were using very primitive calorimetry, they did
not know how to obtain active material, and their basic understanding was
seriously flawed.  They had a single source of Pd who later changed the
manufacturing technique so that active material is no longer available.
Frankly, I do not believe Martin's claims for being able to acquire "Type-A"
palladium.  Without such material, any claims are just hot air.

>
>         Consequently, we can not even attract development money.
>
> We -- you and I -- could not attract development money, but if I had the
> kinds of cells CETI demonstrated years ago, or the gas loaded cells BLP
> supposedly had, I could attract hundreds of millions of dollars of
> development money and sales in no time flat. Any fool could do it, given
> today's overheated "irrational exuberance." You can raise $1 billion
> peddling shares in phony dot-com companies that do nothing but lose money.

Yes, I agree, any amount of money would be available if the kinds of cells
CETI demonstrated years ago were available.  My point is that the basic
information was never obtained which would have made duplication of such cells
possible.  CETI was lucky to make a few work — the gift that nature gives
occasionally to encourage an understanding of the basic process.  However,
CETI did not take this hint and obtain the necessary understanding. Instead,
they focused their attention on raising money on the basis of this lucky
event, only to find that they could not make it work again when the investors
demanded a demonstration.

>
>         However, if we should make too much of the information we do
>         have generally available . . .
>
> We are not doing one percent of what we can and should be doing with
> information already available! In any other industry, with any other
> breakthrough, people like McKubre would be on the front page of Time
> magazine by now, and on every talk show. The fact that he is not in the
> limelight is as much SRI's fault as the opposition's. The low-profile
> routine is killing us.

I take a different approach.  We have a phenomenon which can not be explained,
indeed which is impossible in many people's minds.  We can not make it work
except on rare occasions.  When it does work, only small amounts of energy are
obtained, detectable only by using complicated instruments. This situation
does not lend its self to creating a high profile.   I suggest, if a person
with money wanted to make this phenomenon successful, he would invest enough
money to obtain the required basic understanding.  Using this understanding,
the phenomenon would then be reproducible at a magnitude which any idiot could
not fail to notice.  Then Time magazine would take an interest and we would be
off to the races.  Anything short of this approach, I suggest is just sour
grapes.

>
>         . . . when the break-through comes and the phenomenon is
>         accepted, commercial interests would have no problem developing
>         a product without our help and without sharing any of the
>         proceeds.  How would you propose to solve this problem?
>
> The same way Morse, Edison, the Wrights, AT&T and Gates solved it. Demo the
> product, sell, sell, sell, build credibility, market leadership and
> momentum. A half-million people will work frantically to improve BLP
> technology for their own purposes, and more progress will be made every
> week than has been made over the last 10 years. This is how telephones,
> aviation, computers and semiconductors boomed: hundreds of thousands of
> people worked on them in parallel.

All very true.  However, from Mills point of view, this should only happen
after BLP has a lock on the technology.  If it happens to soon, GE for
example, could clean their clock.

>
> I would use the tried and true methods of business. We want new inventions
> -- not new-age marketing. Human nature has not changed so I am sure the
> old-fashioned textbook marketing techniques will work.
>
> Mills could have taken over the world by now, with the gadgets Thermocore
> described at MIT back in 1992. If those gadgets worked one-tenth of the
> time back then, Mills would now be in a position to buy a controlling share
> of Exxon, his biggest rival. I am not exaggerating. Ten years after
> Microsoft started from nothing, it could have seized control of IBM. Ten
> years after the first wobbly transatlantic commercial airplane flight in
> 1938, the airliners could have bought control in the transatlantic steamer
> companies. In 1998, 10 or 15 years after Compaq and Dell got underway,
> Compaq bought the remains of DEC, which had been the second largest
> computer company in 1985.

I suggest Microsoft is not a good example.  Microsoft was and is a monopoly.
As such, they could grow without much competition.  In addition, Gates is a
talented and ruthless business man who made sure the company saved money by
making a product which was just barely adequate.  I doubt we could pull off
this kind of business practice in CF.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 10:14:34 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
>Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 9:03 PM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity


>Hi David. Since you are apparently determined to post your stuff in science
>groups, and since you are constantly complaining that people ignore your
>posts, I thought I would not be out of line to point out to you that your
>failure to speak the language of science, and, in particular, your failure
>to address *obvious* scientific objections to your theories, is why your
>posts are mostly ignored. 

Mitchell, your head is stuck in the sand.

David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and smell
the coffee rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need to
rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.
That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will
be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of whirlpower.

For example,
"The love of money is the root of all evil."

How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue the
day it dismissed whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific
merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 10:17:01 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Conventional energy revolution
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 10:12:06 PDT
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HA!  This is a first, Jed is going to try and bring CF in on the tails of 
Whirlpower Talk.  CF has had its time.  Now it's Whirlpower Time!

David


>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Conventional energy revolution
>Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 10:10:52 -0400
>
>Lynn Kurtz wrote:
>
> >While I tend to agree with your sentiments here, I have to ask, what 
>energy
> >revolution? Everyone is still using the old standbys oil, coal, nuclear,
> >hydro, solar, wind, and geothermal aren't they?
> >
> >I don't see anyone using Newman machines, Watson RMOG's, Dennard
> >Whirlpools, CF devices, Glow discharge devices, BLP plasmas . . .
>
>Actually, we are in the middle of a quiet conventional energy revolution on
>two fronts: 1. Distributed co-generation of electricity with natural gas.
>2. Wind power. Wind generation capacity is now as big as nuclear power was
>in the late 1960s, and it is growing rapidly. The cost continues to fall,
>and in some locations it is already cheaper than gas, coal or other
>conventional sources. An independent power company in New York recently
>announced plans to build a wind farm with the latest advanced European
>turbines. The tax breaks of the 1980s created a lot of junk technology and
>short-lived, overpriced wind farms, but they also led to swift progress. In
>the end incentives by the government, EPRI and  industry paid off, and wind
>is now making large to clean energy and to the economy. This shows that
>government and industry planning & coordination can work, with conventional
>technology.
>
>
> >The "energy revolution" doesn't exist. Maybe someday soon it will. Maybe 
>not.
>
>I agree. At best we have a "physics revolution" with cold fusion. All of
>these other claims await independent verification, to put it politely.
>Kurtz might say that CF also needs verification, but I think it is over the
>hump because many labs have verified it at high S/N ratios. Please note
>that how many labs and how high the S/N ratio should be is a judgement
>call. I am satisfied with 5 or 10 top quality replications, and I think
>there have been ~200. Kurtz may be holding out for 2,000 replications, or
>200,000.
>
>The CF physics revolution may not be accepted by mainstream scientists for
>decades, or it may be forgotten altogether. Even if it is accepted, it
>might not lead to a practical source of energy, but I expect it will.
>
>- Jed
>

________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 10:52:16 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Steven, unless you object, I would like to put these comments on my 
Whirlpower Declaration, with a tiny edit, smell the ROSES.  :)

David


>From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:13:35 -0700
>
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
> >Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 9:03 PM
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>
>
> >Hi David. Since you are apparently determined to post your stuff in 
>science
> >groups, and since you are constantly complaining that people ignore your
> >posts, I thought I would not be out of line to point out to you that your
> >failure to speak the language of science, and, in particular, your 
>failure
> >to address *obvious* scientific objections to your theories, is why your
> >posts are mostly ignored.
>
>Mitchell, your head is stuck in the sand.
>
>David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
>irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and 
>smell
>the coffee rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need to
>rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.
>That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will
>be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of whirlpower.
>
>For example,
>"The love of money is the root of all evil."
>
>How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue the
>day it dismissed whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific
>merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.
>
>-Steve
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May  4 16:54:04 2000
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Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 16:54:46 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC - "ILOVEYOU" hit here!
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The "ILOVEYOU" virus is for real. I just got an e-mail message with the
virus attached from a friend of mine. I called him and so did fifty other
people. Fortunately for me, I use old-fashioned Eudora Lite e-mail, and I
process the mail in ASCII with my own programs, so I am immune to this
class of viruses. I gather this virus spread rapidly because so many people
use MS Outlook and Outlook Express. We need digital bio-diversity. Putting
the same software on millions of computers is like planting every field for
hundreds of kilometers around with the same strain of wheat. One bacteria
comes along and bam - everyone's crop is wiped out.

Some expert on CNN.com is quoted:

	He estimated $100 million in software damage and lost commerce had been
	caused by 9 a.m. Thursday in North America alone and predicted the
	price tag would exceed $1 billion by Monday morning.

That sounds exaggerated, although the ILOVEYOU does wipe out files, and
many man-hours will be spent fixing it. It hit the U.S. Congress and the
U.K. House of Commons.

The people selling anti-virus software will make a fortune in the next few
weeks.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 10:57:43 2000
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Let it be page 10,001 :)

-----Original Message-----
From: David Dennard [mailto:daviddennard hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 10:46 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity


Steven, unless you object, I would like to put these comments on my 
Whirlpower Declaration, with a tiny edit, smell the ROSES.  :)

David


>From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:13:35 -0700
>
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
> >Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 9:03 PM
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>
>
> >Hi David. Since you are apparently determined to post your stuff in 
>science
> >groups, and since you are constantly complaining that people ignore your
> >posts, I thought I would not be out of line to point out to you that your
> >failure to speak the language of science, and, in particular, your 
>failure
> >to address *obvious* scientific objections to your theories, is why your
> >posts are mostly ignored.
>
>Mitchell, your head is stuck in the sand.
>
>David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
>irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and 
>smell
>the coffee rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need to
>rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.
>That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will
>be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of whirlpower.
>
>For example,
>"The love of money is the root of all evil."
>
>How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue the
>day it dismissed whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific
>merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.
>
>-Steve
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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>Experimental results can have a variety of reasonable
>(plausible) interpretations, but the results are the place
>where discussion should start.  Nevertheless, I enjoyed
>The Rose.
>
>Jack Smith
>

So far discussion has led to testing in my experience.  WE have built the 
first whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.  A fact science 
will not be able to ignore much longer.

Glad you enjoyed THE ROSE.  It has and is blooming with new petals already 
out and more, much more, to come.

Time has come today!
Young hearts can go their way!
Can't put is off another day!
Time has come today!

David Dennard
"he come grovin' up slowly"

________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 11:10:37 2000
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Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:04:18 PDT
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Let it be!  :)


>From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:55:12 -0700
>
>Let it be page 10,001 :)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Dennard [mailto:daviddennard hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 10:46 AM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>
>
>Steven, unless you object, I would like to put these comments on my
>Whirlpower Declaration, with a tiny edit, smell the ROSES.  :)
>
>David
>
>
> >From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> >Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
> >Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:13:35 -0700
> >
> >
> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
> > >Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 9:03 PM
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >Subject: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
> >
> >
> > >Hi David. Since you are apparently determined to post your stuff in
> >science
> > >groups, and since you are constantly complaining that people ignore 
>your
> > >posts, I thought I would not be out of line to point out to you that 
>your
> > >failure to speak the language of science, and, in particular, your
> >failure
> > >to address *obvious* scientific objections to your theories, is why 
>your
> > >posts are mostly ignored.
> >
> >Mitchell, your head is stuck in the sand.
> >
> >David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
> >irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and
> >smell
> >the coffee rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need 
>to
> >rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical 
>consistency.
> >That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you 
>will
> >be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of whirlpower.
> >
> >For example,
> >"The love of money is the root of all evil."
> >
> >How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue 
>the
> >day it dismissed whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific
> >merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.
> >
> >-Steve
> >
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 13:38:59 2000
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Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 16:32:34 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
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I wrote:

> In this case, that's unfair to Morse, Vail, Straight and the others . . .

Oops, I meant Ezra Cornell, not Straight. Cornell actually solved the
conduit problem with a new digging machine and better insulation, but it
was not cost effective. The telegraph network was the first Internet, and
Cornell was one of the first Internet millionaires, equivalent to today's
dot-com moguls. He used a large chunk of the money to found the university.
See:

http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/ezra-exhibit/EC-life/EC-life-5.html


Edmund Storms wrote:

>However, the basic
>studies and the people who do this kind of work are generally are not made
>part of this process, sometimes for good reason, i.e. the inventors were
>crazy.

I think the main reason is the different style of work required for basic
science research compared to development. A researcher like Henry or Mizuno
must work in the open. He must share his results and solicit peer review
often, especially in early stages when valuable intellectual property is
likely to evolve. This makes it hard for him to keep secrets long enough to
secure intellectual property rights and patents. Also, a researcher must
devote much of his time to impractical and theoretical studies with no
commercial potential, which means he is probably working at a university or
some other publicly supported institution. His work is in the public domain.


>> The more people who take an interest, the better. You want white-hot
>> interest, thousands of phone calls . . .

>Yes, I agree this kind of interest would be good at some point.  However, if
>it comes too soon, it can distract from trying to understand the process and
>turn it into a useful product. . . .

It will distract the researcher for a while, but the reason you generate
interest is to collect a pile of working capital. You use some of the money
to pay for a PR person who handles inquiries and press relations after
that, while you get back to work.


> I suggest each of these stages needs to occur
>in the proper order for the process to be successful.

I don't see why. Edison deliberately drummed up a huge response in the
press before he even began working on the incandescent light (mostly
negative, but any publicity is good publicity). He did that in order to
attract capital. The strategy worked: he attracted J.P. Morgan.

Business is not an orderly process that goes according to rules or set
schedules. It must be done on an ad hoc basis. When opportunities arise
that must be exploited swiftly. If you need the money now, you cannot wait
for your machine to work perfectly and for everything to fall into place
before you beat the bushes searching for cash. It is "demo or die," as they
say.


>Otherwise it is too easy
>to lose control of the idea and end up with nothing while the money gabbers
>make a mess.

You can lose control at any stage. You will not be better prepared because
the product is a little closer to commercialization, or one more patent has
been filed.


>My studies of the Pons-Fleischmann work indicate to me that they were not
even
>close to a useful device.

Fleischmann and I did not mean commercially useful. We meant it was time to
show it to other corporations and institutions. Fleischmann told me that
after they achieved reliable boil off events, he told the management at
IMRA, "now it's time to do the high school demo kit." They said, no way!


> They were using very primitive calorimetry . . .

Fleischmann disagrees. You should go mano-a-mano with him and debate this
in Italy. We will videotape the encounter. I would characterize it as
simple calorimetry backed by sophisticated equations. I do not see how
anyone could run an array of 64 cells with more complex calorimeters.

The constant boiling calorimeters with external temperature sensors were
more sophisticated.


> they did
>not know how to obtain active material . . .

They did, I think. They still do.


>They had a single source of Pd who later changed the
>manufacturing technique so that active material is no longer available.

That was a political problem, not technical. Any amount would be available
if IMRA and the other Japanese corporations had chosen to cooperate with
Johnson Matthey, instead of trying to rip them off. As to why Johnson
Matthey has not proceeded on its own . . . I don't know. Companies are
sometimes inscrutable.


>Frankly, I do not believe Martin's claims for being able to acquire "Type-A"
>palladium.  Without such material, any claims are just hot air.

In that case, you should explain the statistics produced by Melvin Miles
showing the success rates with different types of Pd. The results for
Johnson Matthey would be a fantastic coincidence, particularly the 100%
percent success rate and high power for Type A.


>CETI was lucky to make a few work — the gift that nature gives
>occasionally to encourage an understanding of the basic process.  However,
>CETI did not take this hint and obtain the necessary understanding. Instead,
>they focused their attention on raising money on the basis of this lucky
>event, only to find that they could not make it work again when the investors
>demanded a demonstration.

That is not how I heard the story, and that is not the behavior I
personally witnessed in California and repeatedly thereafter. They had a
liter or more of good beads. They could have provided many demo kits to
many major research labs. I pleaded with them to allow investors and
scientists to observe demonstrations and ongoing research, and to make
beads available to researchers who had the tools to replicate them. They
refused. They kept the beads under wraps and used them up in their own
research. They alienated research partners. They spent the remaining
capital and manpower chasing after a tritium remediation with the DoE,
which is the only organization in the country that might want to remediate
tritium -- only it turns out they don't, and any fool can see they would
never work with a company like CETI on a heretical approach.


>I take a different approach.  We have a phenomenon which can not be
explained,
>indeed which is impossible in many people's minds.  We can not make it work
>except on rare occasions.  When it does work, only small amounts of energy
are
>obtained, detectable only by using complicated instruments. This situation
>does not lend its self to creating a high profile.

Sure it does! How often do the hot fusion people produce energy? Lots of
organizations have overcome these limitations. Our predicament is no worse
than NASA's was in 1960 when most of their rockets blew up.


>I suggest, if a person
>with money wanted to make this phenomenon successful, he would invest enough
>money to obtain the required basic understanding.

He -- one person -- would not have to invest this much. He would invest
1/100,000th of this amount, because 99,999 other people would also be
frantically investing in it. When Sikorsky built the first practical
16-passenger airplane in 1914, he did not have to perfect every component
and subsystem himself. He made use of other people's discoveries. Texas
Instruments made use of other people's expertise in semiconductors when
they invented the integrated circuit.

Airplanes were impractical deathtraps in 1908 and 1909 when a half-million
people were working on them. People rapidly improved aerodynamics, engine
reliability, fuel, fuel delivery systems, landing gear and so on. Each of
these 500,000 people understood that airplanes had enormous commercial
potential even though they were not yet practical. The combined efforts of
these people together made the technology viable. No single company could
have done it alone. Only one person, Sikorsky, was capable of integrating
these discoveries in a large, stable, useful airplane. By 1930, dozens of
companies learned to do it.


> Using this understanding,
>the phenomenon would then be reproducible at a magnitude which any idiot
could
>not fail to notice.  Then Time magazine would take an interest and we
would be
>off to the races.  Anything short of this approach, I suggest is just sour
>grapes.

I think the whole history of technology& commerce, going back to the
invention of the steam engine in 1695, proves you are wrong about this, Ed.
Totally wrong. Conservative magazines like Time hardly matter anyway. Wired
magazine will take notice quickly. They already have. They have enormous
influence.

Even scientific discoveries without practical application have generated
public excitement and significant funding. Look at the response to radium
before people understood what radiation was, back in the days when they
were drinking radium mixed with water.


>All very true.  However, from Mills point of view, this should only happen
>after BLP has a lock on the technology.

See the Book Of Commerce, Page 1, Rule 1, para 1: you NEVER, EVER get a
lock on technology. Lucky and diligent companies may race ahead of the
competition briefly, but the advantage will evaporate after a few years,
except in rare cases in which factors unrelated to technology dominate. A
strategy which calls for getting a "lock on the technology" has no chance
of success. Xerox has no longer holds sway over copiers; Hewlett Packard no
longer rules printers; IBM's hegemony and 80% market share in personal
computers lasted only three years. (In the slow-moving, insular world of
mainframes circa 1963 IBM's hold lasted ~10 years, until Hitachi and the
minicomputers showed up, but that was a fluke caused by business practices
and culture, not technology.)

The only strategy that works is to run like hell and keep innovating faster
than your competition. The "lock" idea is a pipedream and a fatal mistake,
albeit one that many inventors have fallen for. Around 1907, the Wright
brothers wrote to the British government that they had a 2 to 5-year lead
over everyone else, because that is how long it took them. They figured no
one could think faster than they could, or make windtunnel measurements
faster. They did not realize what happens when a half-million people began
frantically researching a subject starting with a superbly written patent
in the public domain. All of their work was copied and/or recapitulated
within six months, although the windtunnel data was not topped until the
1920s.


>If it happens too soon, GE for
>example, could clean their clock.

Too soon? Is BLP better prepared now than they were in 1992? I do not see
any substantial progress. Will they be even better positioned in 2008? If
they cannot outrun GE today, they never will be able to. Anyway, with
radical new startup technology, big companies are usually not a threat. It
is the small and medium-sized ones you must worry about.


>I suggest Microsoft is not a good example.  Microsoft was and is a monopoly.

They were not a monopoly until the introduction of Windows ver. 3.1, and
the demise of DR DOS and the Apple Mac. I doubt they will be a monopoly
much longer, especially if the Justice Dept. has anything to say about it.
Monopolies seldom last long.


>In addition, Gates is a
>talented and ruthless business man who made sure the company saved money by
>making a product which was just barely adequate.  I doubt we could pull off
>this kind of business practice in CF.

I don't see why not. The "barely adequate" business strategy worked
wonderfully in most other ragged start-up industries, such as telephones,
automobiles, digital watches, microcomputers and modern wind turbines. It
is hard for me to imagine how these industries could have got started with
any other strategy, considering how difficult it was to make those "barely
adequate" machines. No one had any illusions that these machines were of
good quality when they were introduced. Quality did not matter. The first
dozen  microcomputer hard disks I purchased, around 1982, were atrocious,
and the software was a joke compared by the standards of minicomputers I
was used to. The disks cost thousands of dollars (way more per megabyte
than the minicomputer disks); they made a horrible racket; they lost data
constantly; and they self-destructed after six months. I didn't care
because I knew quality would improve rapidly, and I was positioning the
company to take advantage of it.

Most highly successful businessman are ruthless. Some of them, like
Carnegie and Gates, turn out to have a generous, benevolent, humanitarian
side to their personality as well. Others are lifelong jerks. Microsoft
quality is not much worse than the industry standard circa 1985. From my
point of view, they are stuck in a time-warp, doing things the way the rest
of us did them back then: pushing feature-laden products out the door
before they are ready. That was the only way to survive in a rapidly
changing industry, but it is not the right way to operate a mature
business, where most customers are ordinary folks instead of
performance-crazy nerds. If Microsoft does not tame their quality control
problems, and Linux remains stable and reliable (as it reportedly is),
Microsoft will be seriously hurt in the next five years.

This is getting off topic, but I think that if Microsoft had any sense or
historical perspective they would welcome the Justice department initiative
and break themselves apart. It would be much healthier for them in the long
term. (A few people within Microsoft have been quietly saying this for some
time, according to some industry sources.) The two great anti-trust cases
of the late 20th century were IBM and AT&T. IBM won in court, and lost
two-thirds of its market share as a result. AT&T lost, was broken apart,
and component parts have been growing like crazy ever since. Microsoft is
too large for its own good.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 13:54:37 2000
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Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 13:57:55 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
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At 10:55 AM 5/5/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Let it be page 10,001 :)
>
..
>>-Steve
>>

That would be the satire section, right?

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 15:04:27 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi replication
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 07:59:28 +1000
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 05 May 2000 11:36:35 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>They fill the Dewars with liquid nitrogen for their test.  If the major
>residual gas is water vapor (which is a strong possibility) it will be
>quickly cryopumped by the LN2 temperatures and the vacuum will improve
>dramatically...but just for the duration of their test.  My tests are
>conducted within 25C of room temperature.
[snip]
Hi Scott,

Customer service reps rarely understand fine technical details. It might
prove more rewarding to speak directly to the department doing the testing.
Also, is it possible that the dewars are developing hairline cracks during
shipping?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 15:51:03 2000
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At 07:59 AM 5/6/2000 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Customer service reps rarely understand fine technical details. It might
>prove more rewarding to speak directly to the department doing the testing.

Right.  I sent a copy of my test data along with my misgivings about the
LN2 test with the returned Dewar.

>Also, is it possible that the dewars are developing hairline cracks during
>shipping?

That doesn't seem likely.  I ran several tests on the latest Dewars over a
1 week period and did not observe any changes in their performance.  The
packaging is excellent and the Dewars look perfect with their beautiful
silvery interiors.  However, the seal-off area is hidden from view by a
black potting material that secures the metal base to the Dewar.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 16:06:52 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for May 05, 2000
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:17:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 May
00   Washington, DC

In this week's issue, we find that many
public misconceptions
about science issues are related to
difficulty in scaling. 
                                                  
1. DOOMSDAY? IT'S A SCARY UNIVERSE OUT
THERE.  The world remained
remarkably calm when the dreaded conjunction
of the five visible
planets occurred at 4:08 a.m. ET this
morning.  A book by Richard
Noone, "5/5/2000 Ice: The Ultimate Disaster,"
had predicted that
powerful tidal forces would bring an awful
end to the world as we
know it.  However, even as he sought to
reassure people, David
Ropeik, Director of Risk Communication at the
Harvard Center for
Risk Analysis may have been misleading about
the physics: "The
moon exerts more gravitational effect on the
earth than any other
body in the solar system"
(www.msnbc.com/news/402162.asp).  Hmmm.
The sun's pull is about 180 times stronger
than that of the moon. 
The tides, however, depend on the gradient,
and thus vary as the
inverse cube of the distance.  Because the
moon is so close, its
effect on the tides are about twice as great
as the sun's.

2. "VITAMIN O": COMPANY AGREES TO PAY
$375,000 TO SETTLE.  You
will recall that WN first exposed the scam 18
months ago, after a
full page ad appeared in USA Today (WN 27 Nov
98).  Rose Creek
Health Products was marketing ordinary salt
water as a dietary
supplement for $10 per ounce, with claims of
significant health
benefits.  If oxygen could be absorbed by the
gastrointestinal
tract, which it can't, you would need to
drink two liters each
second to supply your minimum daily
requirement.  That's usually
called drowning.  In addition to consumer
redress, the company is
barred from claiming that research has
demonstrated health
benefits.  Meanwhile, Beverly Sassoon & Co.
picked up the scam,
selling salt water as BiOxygen at $17.50 per
ounce (WN 7 Apr 00). 

3. NUCLEAR PHOBIA: RISK AT LBL IS PUT INTO
PERSPECTIVE.  The
increase in radiation exposure at Lawrence
Berkeley Laboratory
due to tritium led the Alameda County Board
of Education to call
for a moratorium on field trips to the
Lawrence Hall of Science
(WN 28 Apr 00).  The lab calculated the
increase to be equivalent
to living at an altitude 30 feet higher.  My
guess, however, is
that many people near the lab, rather than
being reassured by
this calculation, will instead begin sleeping
in their basements. 

4. THE LOVE BUG: NEW COMPUTER VIRUS IS
SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED. 
Computer intercourse is risky behavior.  Just
about everyone has
gotten the "I love you" e-mail at least
once.  Even without the
virus, the White House has managed to lose
240,000 e-mail
messages over the months, along with all
memory that it happened. 

Note:  Next week's issue of WN will include
the statement on
National Missile Defense passed
overwhelmingly by the APS Council
at its meeting in Long Beach on Saturday.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions
are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS,
but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 16:55:56 2000
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Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
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Lynn wrote:
>>>Let it be page 10,001 :)
>
..
>>-Steve
>>

>That would be the satire section, right?

>--Lynn

Lynn,
Actually I was hoping for the "Independent Confirmations" section.  You reap
what you sow.

-Steve





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 17:10:10 2000
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	Dear folks,

	I still do not have a reall good feel for Deenard's set up

	Q:

	1]	Is the bottom flat?
	2]	Is there a drain?  Is the drain centered?
	3]	Does water flow in?
	4]	Does water flow out?  If it goes out..
		 	where does it go to?
	5]	How.... exactly... do the paddles work... How does
			power work?  How is it extracted?


On Fri, 5 May 2000, Florek, Steven wrote:

> 
> Lynn wrote:
> >>>Let it be page 10,001 :)
> >
> ..
> >>-Steve
> >>
> 
> >That would be the satire section, right?
> 
> >--Lynn
> 
> Lynn,
> Actually I was hoping for the "Independent Confirmations" section.  You reap
> what you sow.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 17:10:10 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:04:31 PDT
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If it is I sure missed the meaning of his comment.

If it isn't, you did.

It was pretty plain to me, he said it straight, head in the sand.

David


>From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
>Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 13:57:55 -0700
>
>At 10:55 AM 5/5/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >Let it be page 10,001 :)
> >
>..
> >>-Steve
> >>
>
>That would be the satire section, right?
>
>--Lynn
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 17:28:49 2000
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cc: forcefieldpropulsionphysics egroups.com
Subject: Questions, please  The David Dennard Theory of Gravity 
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	Dear folks,

	I still do not have a really good feel for Dennard's set up

	Q:

	1]	Is the bottom flat?
	2]	Is there a drain?  Is the drain centered?
	3]	Does water flow in?
	4]	Does water flow out?  If it goes out..
		 	where does it go to?
	5]	How.... exactly... do the paddles work... How does
			power work?  How is it extracted?


On Fri, 5 May 2000, Florek, Steven wrote:

> 
> Lynn wrote:
> >>>Let it be page 10,001 :)
> >
> ..
> >>-Steve
> >>
> 
> >That would be the satire section, right?
> 
> >--Lynn
> 
> Lynn,
> Actually I was hoping for the "Independent Confirmations" section.  You reap
> what you sow.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 19:33:41 2000
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Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 22:29:32 -0400
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I think this was the confusing passage...

>You need to
>rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.
>That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will
>be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of whirlpower.

So we should ignore experimental evidence, mathematical proof and
theoretical notions? What remains is faith, which if I'm not mistaken
is the domain of religion and not science. Of course, David is pretty
clear on this point, as to his opinions on the subject that is.

I think we can all agree that there is some interesting physics
in vorticies and whirlpools. It would be nice if David toned down
the "Gods anointed messenger" stuff and just talked about the
phenomena at hand. For example, how about answering some of John's
patient questions?

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Florek, Steven [mailto:Steven.Florek omnikron.com]
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:14 PM
To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com'
Subject: RE: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity



Mitchell Jones wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
>Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 9:03 PM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: The David Dennard Theory of Gravity


>Hi David. Since you are apparently determined to post your stuff in science
>groups, and since you are constantly complaining that people ignore your
>posts, I thought I would not be out of line to point out to you that your
>failure to speak the language of science, and, in particular, your failure
>to address *obvious* scientific objections to your theories, is why your
>posts are mostly ignored.

Mitchell, your head is stuck in the sand.

David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and smell
the coffee rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need to
rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.
That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will
be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of whirlpower.

For example,
"The love of money is the root of all evil."

How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue the
day it dismissed whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific
merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May  5 20:25:53 2000
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I have patiently answer John's questions many times on many lists. 
He 
does not seem to really ever listen to the answers I give, makes
snide 
remarks on the side, on ocassion, then starts all over again like he 
is interested.  I have continued to try and be polite and answer his 
questions by my patience is not endless.  I just try the best I can.  

Yes, my inspiration came to me in a dream in a very spiritual way.  I 
don't claim it as the word of God or any such thing.  I ask for help 
to test and propose my theory.  Theorists propose, scientists
dispose.  
That's how they taught it to me in college long ago.  And it is 
working, ever so slowly but support is rapidly gaining momentum.  

I answered these exact questions from John before.  If there is 
something he does not understand about Whirlpower by now I just don't 
know what more I can say.  School children are writing in saying they 
see exactly what Whirlpower is about, it is very simple, and why
won't 
someone help me.  I just tell them adults have been taught something 
that was not true for so long they are having a hard time changing 
their thinking.  Like in the story the Emperor Wears No Clothes.  
Dogma and big shots can actually hypnotize people to believe a lie, 
right in front of your eyes. 

The kids are going to do it I think.  The High School in Golden 
Colorado have announced they will do it with the contribution from
the 
kids.     

David  

--- In Antigravity egroups.com, "David Dennard" <daviddennard@h...> 
wrote:
John:
>	1]	Is the bottom flat?
>	2]	Is there a drain in the bottom?
>	3]	If yes for item [2] where, specifically, is it located
>	4]	Is water supposed to flow continuously through the pool?

I want those kids at the high school to be the ones to do this first,
 
John, you have had the time I have answered and explained before.

Best to not even consider the tank there.  Build in a tank bigger
than 
is needed, build a smaller whirlpool inside the planned tank.  The 
size and shape of the tank are not important as long as it is bigger 
than needed.   

Make the drain telescopic so the depth of the whirlpool can be 
adjustable.  It is in the center.  We do have some tech work on my 
list that adresses several drain options, multilple openings, wobble 
enhancers.  I try to keep my team focused on the most simple.

The pumps run all the time and act like spark plugs do in a motor.  
The system has to be started and set in motion for the whirlpool to 
form, and like a motor this energy has to be given first.  Once it is 
going the whirlpool keeps the system charged.

Use only the tinniest amount of feedback to get the widest whirlpool.
 
Do not go for great speed or a large vortex.  The feedback perimeter 
jets should also be adjustable.  They are the most important.  A
river 
eddy does not have a drain hole.  The feedback is mostly to keep 
balance and get the most of the compound vortex and get the largest 
most powerful torus possible.

That is where the energy is.  Do not let the big wheel get too close 
to the vortex or to the surface.  The whirlpool proper must run 
freely.

"The Archimedes Torus" contains the energy, as coined by engineer 
George Palickar on this list.

We will have new and better graphics up soon.  Not one dime has been 
spent on this project all work is grass roots and done by you folks, 
the public.

David Dennard
The Phoenix
http://www.whirlpower.cc




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> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >However, the basic
> >studies and the people who do this kind of work are generally are not made
> >part of this process, sometimes for good reason, i.e. the inventors were
> >crazy.
>
> I think the main reason is the different style of work required for basic
> science research compared to development. A researcher like Henry or Mizuno
> must work in the open. He must share his results and solicit peer review
> often, especially in early stages when valuable intellectual property is
> likely to evolve. This makes it hard for him to keep secrets long enough to
> secure intellectual property rights and patents. Also, a researcher must
> devote much of his time to impractical and theoretical studies with no
> commercial potential, which means he is probably working at a university or
> some other publicly supported institution. His work is in the public domain.

Good point. However, life doesn't always work this way.  Take George Miley for
example. He is working at a university doing basic work but has arranged to be
part of a potential commercial application of his studies.  Other people working
in the field do not have this arrangement and will be left out of the potential
reward.

> >> The more people who take an interest, the better. You want white-hot
> >> interest, thousands of phone calls . . .
>
> >Yes, I agree this kind of interest would be good at some point.  However, if
> >it comes too soon, it can distract from trying to understand the process and
> >turn it into a useful product. . . .
>
> It will distract the researcher for a while, but the reason you generate
> interest is to collect a pile of working capital. You use some of the money
> to pay for a PR person who handles inquiries and press relations after
> that, while you get back to work.

It might work this way in the ideal world.  However, various issues come up - the
PR person makes mistakes, the press wants to hear from the technical person, the
accountant starts to skim some of the money, the investors get impatient, etc.

>
>
> > I suggest each of these stages needs to occur
> >in the proper order for the process to be successful.
>
> I don't see why. Edison deliberately drummed up a huge response in the
> press before he even began working on the incandescent light (mostly
> negative, but any publicity is good publicity). He did that in order to
> attract capital. The strategy worked: he attracted J.P. Morgan.

If I remember correctly, Edison had a laboratory as well as a track record as a
successful inventor at that time.  He did not have to prove his worth.

>
> Business is not an orderly process that goes according to rules or set
> schedules. It must be done on an ad hoc basis. When opportunities arise
> that must be exploited swiftly. If you need the money now, you cannot wait
> for your machine to work perfectly and for everything to fall into place
> before you beat the bushes searching for cash. It is "demo or die," as they
> say.

Or as in the case of CF, live on as an invalid on life support.

>
>
> >Otherwise it is too easy
> >to lose control of the idea and end up with nothing while the money gabbers
> >make a mess.
>
> You can lose control at any stage. You will not be better prepared because
> the product is a little closer to commercialization, or one more patent has
> been filed.

If this is the case, there is no advantage to understanding the technology or
getting increasingly focused patents.  Form my view of other fields, I do not see
how your statement can be true.

>
>
> >My studies of the Pons-Fleischmann work indicate to me that they were not
> even
> >close to a useful device.
>
> Fleischmann and I did not mean commercially useful. We meant it was time to
> show it to other corporations and institutions. Fleischmann told me that
> after they achieved reliable boil off events, he told the management at
> IMRA, "now it's time to do the high school demo kit." They said, no way!

I can understand this reaction.  They could not duplicate Fleischmann's claims
using his boil off calorimeter.  How could they expect a high school student to
make it work?  You can argue that IMRA ignored Fleischmann, hence did a lousy
experiment.  Why would you expect a high school student to do the work any
better?

>
> > They were using very primitive calorimetry . . .
>
> Fleischmann disagrees. You should go mano-a-mano with him and debate this
> in Italy. We will videotape the encounter. I would characterize it as
> simple calorimetry backed by sophisticated equations. I do not see how
> anyone could run an array of 64 cells with more complex calorimeters.

A simple calorimeter is essential to study many samples.  However, once the
variables are understood so that duplication can be done on demand, a good
calorimeter is essential.  Otherwise, the skeptic can never be sure the sample is
the source of heat.  In addition, once this understanding had been achieved, it
was essential for helium production to be measured and shown to be related to the
heat.  Instead, it was left to Miles and Bush to do this essential experiment
using samples which produced very little nuclear reaction. If P-F had robust
samples sufficient to provide a high school demonstration, why did they not do
this absolutely essential experiment?

>
> The constant boiling calorimeters with external temperature sensors were
> more sophisticated.

This design was even worse than their "normal" calorimeter.  For this phenomenon
to be accepted, the calorimeter must be simple, conventional, and proven to be
accurate by many calibration cycles combined with a study of the characteristics
of the calorimeter.   They showed such studies only after the fact and to a very
limited extent.

>
>
> > they did
> >not know how to obtain active material . . .
>
> They did, I think. They still do.

If so, why do they not tell the rest of us?  They have nothing to lose and
everything to gain by such a revelation at this point.

>
>
> >They had a single source of Pd who later changed the
> >manufacturing technique so that active material is no longer available.
>
> That was a political problem, not technical. Any amount would be available
> if IMRA and the other Japanese corporations had chosen to cooperate with
> Johnson Matthey, instead of trying to rip them off. As to why Johnson
> Matthey has not proceeded on its own . . . I don't know. Companies are
> sometimes inscrutable.

>
>
> >Frankly, I do not believe Martin's claims for being able to acquire "Type-A"
> >palladium.  Without such material, any claims are just hot air.
>
> In that case, you should explain the statistics produced by Melvin Miles
> showing the success rates with different types of Pd. The results for
> Johnson Matthey would be a fantastic coincidence, particularly the 100%
> percent success rate and high power for Type A.

I have no doubt that "Type A" as well as other kinds of palladium produced excess
energy.  Unfortunately, we do not know what is common about the successful
samples, nor how to obtain "Type A" palladium even if we had the money to order
it.  As I understand the situation, J-M no longer makes palladium this way and
probably no longer even has the equipment to duplicate the procedure. Unless the
alloy composition is known and the production variables are understood,
duplication of the alloy would be impossible.

>
> >CETI was lucky to make a few work — the gift that nature gives
> >occasionally to encourage an understanding of the basic process.  However,
> >CETI did not take this hint and obtain the necessary understanding. Instead,
> >they focused their attention on raising money on the basis of this lucky
> >event, only to find that they could not make it work again when the investors
> >demanded a demonstration.
>
> That is not how I heard the story, and that is not the behavior I
> personally witnessed in California and repeatedly thereafter. They had a
> liter or more of good beads. They could have provided many demo kits to
> many major research labs. I pleaded with them to allow investors and
> scientists to observe demonstrations and ongoing research, and to make
> beads available to researchers who had the tools to replicate them. They
> refused. They kept the beads under wraps and used them up in their own
> research. They alienated research partners. They spent the remaining
> capital and manpower chasing after a tritium remediation with the DoE,
> which is the only organization in the country that might want to remediate
> tritium -- only it turns out they don't, and any fool can see they would
> never work with a company like CETI on a heretical approach.

My understanding is somewhat different.  First of all, they did not actually have
a liter of good beads.  In fact, what they thought were good beads actually
turned out not to be so good.  They sent beads to Tom Claytor at LANL which were
supposed to be active but were found to be dead - not an impressive
demonstration. Patterson thought he could make beads any time he wanted to.  This
turned out not to be the case.  The tritium work was undertaken later after bead
production failed.  The plan was not to remediate tritium but to extract it from
contaminated water. The stuff is too valuable to destroy.

>
>
> >I take a different approach.  We have a phenomenon which can not be
> explained,
> >indeed which is impossible in many people's minds.  We can not make it work
> >except on rare occasions.  When it does work, only small amounts of energy
> are
> >obtained, detectable only by using complicated instruments. This situation
> >does not lend its self to creating a high profile.
>
> Sure it does! How often do the hot fusion people produce energy? Lots of
> organizations have overcome these limitations. Our predicament is no worse
> than NASA's was in 1960 when most of their rockets blew up.

The hot fusion people produce huge amounts of energy each time they try.  That is
not the problem.  They just use too much to make the equipment work.  Rockets
that blow up do not prove that rockets do not work - only that someone made a
mistake in the design.  When a CF cell does not work, is it that the worker is
incompetent or that nature never intended for it to work?

>
> >I suggest, if a person
> >with money wanted to make this phenomenon successful, he would invest enough
> >money to obtain the required basic understanding.
>
> He -- one person -- would not have to invest this much. He would invest
> 1/100,000th of this amount, because 99,999 other people would also be
> frantically investing in it. When Sikorsky built the first practical
> 16-passenger airplane in 1914, he did not have to perfect every component
> and subsystem himself. He made use of other people's discoveries. Texas
> Instruments made use of other people's expertise in semiconductors when
> they invented the integrated circuit.

OK, I would love to take advantage of someone's discovery.  How would I go about
doing this?

>
> Airplanes were impractical deathtraps in 1908 and 1909 when a half-million
> people were working on them. People rapidly improved aerodynamics, engine
> reliability, fuel, fuel delivery systems, landing gear and so on. Each of
> these 500,000 people understood that airplanes had enormous commercial
> potential even though they were not yet practical. The combined efforts of
> these people together made the technology viable. No single company could
> have done it alone. Only one person, Sikorsky, was capable of integrating
> these discoveries in a large, stable, useful airplane. By 1930, dozens of
> companies learned to do it.

In this case, the issue of whether heavier than air flight was possible had
already been settled.  The issue of whether CF is possible has not been settled,
at least in the minds of most investors.

>
> > Using this understanding,
> >the phenomenon would then be reproducible at a magnitude which any idiot
> could
> >not fail to notice.  Then Time magazine would take an interest and we
> would be
> >off to the races.  Anything short of this approach, I suggest is just sour
> >grapes.
>
> I think the whole history of technology& commerce, going back to the
> invention of the steam engine in 1695, proves you are wrong about this, Ed.
> Totally wrong. Conservative magazines like Time hardly matter anyway. Wired
> magazine will take notice quickly. They already have. They have enormous
> influence.

I have failed to see any change as a result of the Wired article.  If I'm wrong
about this, why are we still spinning our wheels?  The phenomenon has been proven
to be real and a large and growing literature is available to anyone who wants to
make a PR effort.  As you have said repeatedly, we need demonstration kits so
that anyone can see for themselves that the effect is real.  Unfortunately, no
one has provided the necessary samples which will make heat every time.  Why is
this?

>
> Even scientific discoveries without practical application have generated
> public excitement and significant funding. Look at the response to radium
> before people understood what radiation was, back in the days when they
> were drinking radium mixed with water.

People are still doing dumb things based on ignorance.  I don't see how this
applies to us.  In fact, just the opposite is true.  They reject our claims based
on the same ignorance they used to drink radium, for example.

>
> >All very true.  However, from Mills point of view, this should only happen
> >after BLP has a lock on the technology.
>
> See the Book Of Commerce, Page 1, Rule 1, para 1: you NEVER, EVER get a
> lock on technology. Lucky and diligent companies may race ahead of the
> competition briefly, but the advantage will evaporate after a few years,
> except in rare cases in which factors unrelated to technology dominate. A
> strategy which calls for getting a "lock on the technology" has no chance
> of success. Xerox has no longer holds sway over copiers

True, but their copiers are still as good or better than the competition.  Why
would this be the case if they did not have a technical advantage?

> ; Hewlett Packard no
> longer rules printers

True, but their printers are excellent and cheaper than the competition.
Obviously, they have some understanding the other companies do not have.

> ; IBM's hegemony and 80% market share in personal
> computers lasted only three years. (In the slow-moving, insular world of
> mainframes circa 1963 IBM's hold lasted ~10 years, until Hitachi and the
> minicomputers showed up, but that was a fluke caused by business practices
> and culture, not technology.)

That, I suggest was caused by stupidity on the part of IBM.  They could have rule
the world in this area if they had not been so short sighted.

>
> The only strategy that works is to run like hell and keep innovating faster
> than your competition.

True, but having insights your competition does not have certainly helps.

> The "lock" idea is a pipedream and a fatal mistake,
> albeit one that many inventors have fallen for. Around 1907, the Wright
> brothers wrote to the British government that they had a 2 to 5-year lead
> over everyone else, because that is how long it took them. They figured no
> one could think faster than they could, or make windtunnel measurements
> faster. They did not realize what happens when a half-million people began
> frantically researching a subject starting with a superbly written patent
> in the public domain. All of their work was copied and/or recapitulated
> within six months, although the windtunnel data was not topped until the
> 1920s.

Here is a perfect analogy to our problem and my concern.  The Wright brothers had
to convince the world that such flight was possible.  Consequently, they had to
work alone without many resources to prove the principle.  Once the principle was
accepted, as you point out, every body got into the act.  Now they had to run to
catch up and were soon overtaken.  Sure they made some money but they were no
longer part of the "system", except for their fame.  Once the CF principle is
accepted, the rest of us will be swept aside.

>
> >If it happens too soon, GE for
> >example, could clean their clock.
>
> Too soon? Is BLP better prepared now than they were in 1992? I do not see
> any substantial progress. Will they be even better positioned in 2008? If
> they cannot outrun GE today, they never will be able to. Anyway, with
> radical new startup technology, big companies are usually not a threat. It
> is the small and medium-sized ones you must worry about.

I suggest BLP now has examples of unique chemical compounds, has heavy-duty
investors, and has a patent.  This seems to me to be substantial progress.

>
> >I suggest Microsoft is not a good example.  Microsoft was and is a monopoly.
>
> They were not a monopoly until the introduction of Windows ver. 3.1, and
> the demise of DR DOS and the Apple Mac. I doubt they will be a monopoly
> much longer, especially if the Justice Dept. has anything to say about it.
> Monopolies seldom last long.

The fact that Microsoft could push Apple out of the market using DOS certainly
means something.  Here is an operating system which was a pain in the ass going
head to head with a cool, easy to use operating system.  DOS not only grew but
the company was allowed to rip off the system used by Apple and call it Windows.
To make matters worse, the rip off is still a piece of junk compared to the
original, yet it still grows.  I would not mind if Microsoft were a monopoly as
long as they did a good job.  In this case, they do a poor job and keep everyone
else from doing a better job.

>
> >In addition, Gates is a
> >talented and ruthless business man who made sure the company saved money by
> >making a product which was just barely adequate.  I doubt we could pull off
> >this kind of business practice in CF.
>
> I don't see why not. The "barely adequate" business strategy worked
> wonderfully in most other ragged start-up industries, such as telephones,
> automobiles, digital watches, microcomputers and modern wind turbines. It
> is hard for me to imagine how these industries could have got started with
> any other strategy, considering how difficult it was to make those "barely
> adequate" machines.

When a product is very useful compared to the other alternative, such as a car
compared to a horse, a lot of limitation in the car can be tolerated.  Or if the
item is cheap compared to the other alternative, such as a digital watch compared
to the windup kind, again an inadequate product can succeed.  In the case of
Microsoft, we have an inadequate expensive product succeeding against a good
product of similar price, now that takes something special.  I do not see CF
having any of these advantages.

> No one had any illusions that these machines were of
> good quality when they were introduced. Quality did not matter. The first
> dozen  microcomputer hard disks I purchased, around 1982, were atrocious,
> and the software was a joke compared by the standards of minicomputers I
> was used to. The disks cost thousands of dollars (way more per megabyte
> than the minicomputer disks); they made a horrible racket; they lost data
> constantly; and they self-destructed after six months. I didn't care
> because I knew quality would improve rapidly, and I was positioning the
> company to take advantage of it.

And, in addition, you needed something to store the data on even if the method
was not perfect. In the case of CF, many other alternatives for energy exist.

>
> Most highly successful businessman are ruthless. Some of them, like
> Carnegie and Gates, turn out to have a generous, benevolent, humanitarian
> side to their personality as well.

Perhaps after they have so much money it becomes a handicap.  After all, how
would the richest man in the US explain to his friends the need for even more
money?

> Others are lifelong jerks. Microsoft
> quality is not much worse than the industry standard circa 1985. From my
> point of view, they are stuck in a time-warp, doing things the way the rest
> of us did them back then: pushing feature-laden products out the door
> before they are ready. That was the only way to survive in a rapidly
> changing industry, but it is not the right way to operate a mature
> business, where most customers are ordinary folks instead of
> performance-crazy nerds. If Microsoft does not tame their quality control
> problems, and Linux remains stable and reliable (as it reportedly is),
> Microsoft will be seriously hurt in the next five years.

You bet!

>
> This is getting off topic, but I think that if Microsoft had any sense or
> historical perspective they would welcome the Justice department initiative
> and break themselves apart. It would be much healthier for them in the long
> term. (A few people within Microsoft have been quietly saying this for some
> time, according to some industry sources.) The two great anti-trust cases
> of the late 20th century were IBM and AT&T. IBM won in court, and lost
> two-thirds of its market share as a result. AT&T lost, was broken apart,
> and component parts have been growing like crazy ever since. Microsoft is
> too large for its own good.

Here is where the basic character of Gates will reveal itself.  Based on past
performance, I would not bet he would be so wise.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 03:32:13 2000
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
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At 10:00 PM 5/5/00 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote:

>> In that case, you should explain the statistics produced by Melvin Miles
>> showing the success rates with different types of Pd. The results for
>> Johnson Matthey would be a fantastic coincidence, particularly the 100%
>> percent success rate and high power for Type A.
>
>I have no doubt that "Type A" as well as other kinds of palladium produced
excess
>energy.  Unfortunately, we do not know what is common about the successful
>samples, nor how to obtain "Type A" palladium even if we had the money to
order
>it.  As I understand the situation, J-M no longer makes palladium this way
and
>probably no longer even has the equipment to duplicate the procedure.
Unless the
>alloy composition is known and the production variables are understood,
>duplication of the alloy would be impossible.

  and

>> Sure it does! How often do the hot fusion people produce energy? Lots of
>> organizations have overcome these limitations. Our predicament is no worse
>> than NASA's was in 1960 when most of their rockets blew up.
>
>The hot fusion people produce huge amounts of energy each time they try.
That is
>not the problem.  They just use too much to make the equipment work.  Rockets
>that blow up do not prove that rockets do not work - only that someone made a
>mistake in the design.  When a CF cell does not work, is it that the
worker is
>incompetent or that nature never intended for it to work?


   Unless the optimal operating point method is used to correctly
compare samples at their own peak-attainable output, then
examining different alloys, materials, and cells, will 
unfortunately remain an apparent "roll of the dice".

   Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 08:04:04 2000
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Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 10:04:32 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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David Dennard wrote:

<snip>
 
> That is where the energy is.  Do not let the big wheel get too close
> to the vortex or to the surface.  The whirlpool proper must run
> freely.
> 
> "The Archimedes Torus" contains the energy, as coined by engineer
> George Palickar on this list.

If I understand your idea correctly, you plan to tap gravitational
energy from the precession of the whirlpool.  Question, why do you think
that the precessional energy will exceed that necessary to overcome the
viscosity of the water in sustaining the whirlpool?

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 09:35:59 2000
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Subject: More Park Vomit
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:38:49 -0400
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

Robert Park vomits more nonsense into the public arena. See US News & 
World Report, May 8, 2000, p.68.  He attacks cold fusion and makes yet 
another false assertion about how to evaluate the penetration of magnetic 
fields -- this time using a paper clip and sheets of paper, a switch from 
his file-cabinet/paper notion described in his book.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/000508/nycu/park.htm

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 10:34:22 2000
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Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 13:26:29 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi replication
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Scott:

Do you think BLP was as careful as you have been to establish the
performance charactoristics of the Dewar? Maybe they don't care so much
about this parameter. They should tell you.

I don't see how the thing could have a hairline crack. It would be at
atmospheric pressure by now.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 11:04:07 2000
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From: Vinny Pinto <vinny mindspring.com>
Subject: Howdy!, Also: Question!
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Hi Folks:

I am a newcomer to the list.  I have strong research interests in, and a
working lab concentrating in the areas of:
     gaseous plasma discharges, including anomalous properties
     light water electrolytic cells and anomalous cathodic plasma 
           discharge phenomena
     communication/propagation phenomena of longitudinal waves 
     properties and quantitative/qualtitative detection of negative 
          hydrogen ion which appears to be present in electrolyzed 
          reduced water (ERW) and Microhydrin
     cardiac ECG waveform coherence and remote detection/
          measurement thereof

I have one, probably stupid, quick question: where can I find the archives
to read exchanges from the past year?  Thanks in advance!

Later this weekend, I will probably be firing up my first instance of a
light water electrolytic cell (titanium anode, tungsten grid cathode) for
studies of the anomalous cathodic plasma discharge/melting/destruction
reported by many researchers.  Wish me luck!

Thanks!

--Vinny
Vinny Pinto
vinny mindspring.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 11:04:11 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: BLP: HiFi replication
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At 01:26 PM 5/6/2000 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Do you think BLP was as careful as you have been to establish the
>performance charactoristics of the Dewar? Maybe they don't care so much
>about this parameter. They should tell you.

They did tell us...in the book.  They state that the thermal resistance of
their cell was 41C/watt.  That's the target I've been looking for and only
one of the 4 Dewars I've gotten from Pope meets it.

>I don't see how the thing could have a hairline crack. It would be at
>atmospheric pressure by now.

Agreed.



Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 12:44:48 2000
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Terry, because that's the way the universe works.  I think this is Tesla's 
"Wheelwork of Nature".  And all the science we have known can't explain this 
motion themodynamically.  %90 unaccounted for in Dr. Rubin's 30 study on 
spiral galaxies.  Unaccounted for in the hurricane.  No whirlpools ever 
built by man before?

The Paradigm Shift.

"He say, one, and one, and one, is three"

Viscosity of water is the least thing to overcome in Whirlpower.  The thing 
to get right is not disturbing the vortex or whirlpool proper with the 
harness method.  It is very clear in early vortex science trying tap the 
tornado type vortex, (often called a whirlpool) results in "snuffing out the 
vortex".  Much like early fire builders had to learn in building a fire.  
And you can't throw a wet blanket on a fire to dry the blanket out.  Good 
for smoke signals though  :)

Whirlpower and the Archimedes Torus are unique and this is an untested 
concept.  Everyone has agreed on this to the highest levels.  If it has been 
tried they are keeping it secret and their are some reports that point to 
this possibility.  I think they have tried and found limited results with a 
wider highspeed tornado type vortex, but still do not recogize the whirlpool 
action or understand the theory behind it.

It is all in THE ROSE.  My gift to a backwards, ignorant, and polluted 
planet.  And you the reader, you the general public, can make a difference.  
Maybe THE difference by helping in what way you can.  I ask no money, you 
don't see this approach by anyone else.  I ask for you to build a whirlpool 
and report the results, especially if you are in school.  That's the fastest 
and cheapest way to do it.  I ask for teamwork to bring this to the 
attention of the scientific community and get a real theorists propose, 
scientists dispose, Scientific Method test.  That is not rubbish.  That is 
the foundation of discovery.  The rubbish is evident.  It is time to take 
the garbage out.  Out with the old, on with the new!

David Dennard
"in sackcloth and ashes"
http://www.whirlpower.cc

"Come together, right now, over me"




>From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Fwd:  Re: Building poolRe: [Antigravity]
>Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 10:04:32 -0700
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
><snip>
>
> > That is where the energy is.  Do not let the big wheel get too close
> > to the vortex or to the surface.  The whirlpool proper must run
> > freely.
> >
> > "The Archimedes Torus" contains the energy, as coined by engineer
> > George Palickar on this list.
>
>If I understand your idea correctly, you plan to tap gravitational
>energy from the precession of the whirlpool.  Question, why do you think
>that the precessional energy will exceed that necessary to overcome the
>viscosity of the water in sustaining the whirlpool?
>
>Regards,
>
>Terry
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Good point. However, life doesn't always work this way.  Take George Miley
for
>example. He is working at a university doing basic work but has arranged
to be
>part of a potential commercial application of his studies.  Other people
working
>in the field do not have this arrangement and will be left out of the
potential
>reward.

The other people should strive to make their own arrangements, if they have
something of value and they want to cash in. Some do not want to cash in. I
think Mizuno would rather teach.


>It might work this way in the ideal world.  However, various issues come
up - the
>PR person makes mistakes, the press wants to hear from the technical
person, the
>accountant starts to skim some of the money, the investors get impatient,
etc.

Yes, it is impossible to run a company and do R&D at the same time. You
have to find a way to delegate responsibilities. See "The Mythical Man
Month" and "The Man Who Sold The Moon" for examples.


>If I remember correctly, Edison had a laboratory as well as a track record
as a
>successful inventor at that time.  He did not have to prove his worth.

Fleischmann, Bockris, Mizuno and you also have track records, and if CF was
a conventional breakthrough you would not have to prove your worth. Fritz
Will expected the world to believe his tritium results, and he was shocked
to find himself locked out of the establishment -- of which he is a charter
member. When Edison proposed the incandescent light, it was so far out of
the mainstream, and considered so challenging, his hard-earned credibility
did not help at first.


>> You can lose control at any stage. You will not be better prepared because
>> the product is a little closer to commercialization, or one more patent has
>> been filed.
>
>If this is the case, there is no advantage to understanding the technology or
>getting increasingly focused patents.  Form my view of other fields, I do
not see
>how your statement can be true.

I did not say you *will* lose control, I said you can. Having a technical
advantage is a great help, but only when it is combined with business
acumen, luck, and initiative. In 1980 Xerox had by far the best computer
hardware and software technology, in their PARC institute. They were 9
years ahead of the pack. They never sold a single dollar of it, because the
managers had no initiative or imagination. They threw away their advantage.


>I can understand this reaction.  They could not duplicate Fleischmann's
claims
>using his boil off calorimeter.

They could have duplicated it easily, if they had not pissed off
Johnson-Matthey. They wanted to reverse engineer J-M.


>  How could they expect a high school student to
>make it work?  You can argue that IMRA ignored Fleischmann, hence did a lousy
>experiment.  Why would you expect a high school student to do the work any
>better?

I would expect a high school student to follow orders and to do the
experiment, instead of trying to reverse engineer J-M.


>> The constant boiling calorimeters with external temperature sensors were
>> more sophisticated.
>
>This design was even worse than their "normal" calorimeter.

I don't think it was so bad, or so unconventional. It was flexible, and
ideal for working with reflux boiling. Earlier, more conventional models
screwed up. It is difficult to accurately measure the enthalpy from steam
and hot liquid at the same time.


  For this phenomenon
>to be accepted, the calorimeter must be simple, conventional, and proven
to be
>accurate by many calibration cycles combined with a study of the
characteristics
>of the calorimeter.   They showed such studies only after the fact and to
a very
>limited extent.

They were not allowed to show much then, or even now. They are
contractually obligated to shut up, indefinitely. Martin is thinking about
abrogating the contract.



>> They did, I think. They still do.
>
>If so, why do they not tell the rest of us?  They have nothing to lose and
>everything to gain by such a revelation at this point.

They have everything to lose. Toyota has hundreds of lawyers who could get
them into deep trouble. I asked Martin why he thinks Toyota would go after
him if they have abandoned the research. He said he does not know, but he
asked to be released, and they told him no. As to why Toyota would act that
way, you guess is as good as mine. Force of habit? Conspiracy to suppress
CF? Stupidity?


>I have no doubt that "Type A" as well as other kinds of palladium produced
excess
>energy.  Unfortunately, we do not know what is common about the successful
>samples . . .

J-M knows. Toyota tried to find out, using ham-handed methods.


. . .  nor how to obtain "Type A" palladium even if we had the money to order
>it.

Martin says he could obtain it quickly, below market price. Ask and it
shall be given unto thee.


>  As I understand the situation, J-M no longer makes palladium this way and
>probably no longer even has the equipment to duplicate the procedure.
Unless the
>alloy composition is known and the production variables are understood,
>duplication of the alloy would be impossible.

That is not what they told him. They said they have the equipment and the
people who know how to make are either still there, or they would come of
retirement to make another batch. J-M respects Martin and they will do many
favors for him.


>My understanding is somewhat different.  First of all, they did not
actually have
>a liter of good beads.

Okay, they had a liter of those beads that worked extremely well in
California and at U. Illinois. And furthermore -- to put it vaguely -- they
could have had a lot more from various people if they had not stiffed those
people for huge sums of money, and alienated and upset many other allies.


>The tritium work was undertaken later after bead
>production failed.

I am not sure about that. My understanding is that were still some left
over, and there were some that had been used which might have been sent out
of analysis.


>The hot fusion people produce huge amounts of energy each time they try.

Actually, only a megajoule. Lots of CF experiments do better. HF generates
lottsa power in a flash, but not much energy.


> When a CF cell does not work, is it that the worker is
>incompetent or that nature never intended for it to work?

If you present the experiment correctly and you issue a rain ticket, a
failed demo is not such a disaster.


>> He -- one person -- would not have to invest this much. He would invest
>> 1/100,000th of this amount, because 99,999 other people would also be
>> frantically investing in it. . . .
>OK, I would love to take advantage of someone's discovery.  How would I go
about
>doing this?

Encourage widespread interest in the field, and when 100,000 others start
working on it, steal the best ideas they come up with. You must have a
critical mass of people.


>In this case, the issue of whether heavier than air flight was possible had
>already been settled.  The issue of whether CF is possible has not been
settled,
>at least in the minds of most investors.

That is only because the CF scientists have failed to present their case is
a businesslike and persuasive fashion. It is public relations fiasco,
having nothing to do with science. The data is completely convincing, and
demonstrations and press conferences could have been set up years ago. I am
sorry to be harsh, but the CF scientists never lifted a finger to help
themselves. Some actually fought to prevent the kind of dog-and-pony show
PR campaigns that have served hot fusion and DNA research so well. A
scientific breakthrough will seldom sell itself on its own merits. It has
to be promoted and advertised, just like underwear, a movie, or a political
candidate. That is the way science has always worked. The "style" of
selling a scientific discovery (the "sales pitch") is different from the
style you use to peddle underwear, but the ground rules are the same,
because people are people. For that matter a sales pitch used to sell
symphony orchestra tickets will not sound like a funeral home sales pitch,
but the principles are the same.


>I have failed to see any change as a result of the Wired article.

One or two articles is not enough. You need hundreds. It's the critical
mass problem again. My point was that you do not necessarily need them in
the mainstream magazines like Time at first.


>If I'm wrong
>about this, why are we still spinning our wheels?  The phenomenon has been
proven
>to be real and a large and growing literature is available to anyone who
wants to
>make a PR effort.

No, you cannot make a PR effort without a product. If I had cells I could
demonstrate to people, I would launch a PR effort, but as things stand I
have nothing to show the customer.


>  As you have said repeatedly, we need demonstration kits so
>that anyone can see for themselves that the effect is real.

True, but short of that, we could use cells we could demonstrate in a hotel
room or our lab in N.H. That could get the ball rolling. We would soon have
to escalate to the cell you put in the customer's hands, or the effort
would grind to a halt.


> Unfortunately, no
>one has provided the necessary samples which will make heat every time.

There is no need to have it work every time. Probably one time in 4 or 5
would do.


>> See the Book Of Commerce, Page 1, Rule 1, para 1: you NEVER, EVER get a
>> lock on technology. 

>
>True, but [Xerox] copiers are still as good or better than the competition.

That is not the same as having a "lock." Xerox has dozens of competitors,
and only a fraction of the total market.


>> (In the slow-moving, insular world of
>> mainframes circa 1963 IBM's hold lasted ~10 years, until Hitachi and the
>> minicomputers showed up, but that was a fluke caused by business practices
>> and culture, not technology.)
>
>That, I suggest was caused by stupidity on the part of IBM.  They could
have rule
>the world in this area if they had not been so short sighted.

Oh, I don't think so. I worked for two of their mainframe competitors in
the waning days of IBM's  hegemony. From my point of view, IBM's dominance
in the 1960s was caused by factors unrelated to their technology, namely:
their marketing and customer support, which was brilliant; their unfair
business practices, which violated anti-trust laws; the incompetence of the
competition, which was readily apparent to underlings like myself. IBM had
no significant technical advantages, and their internal expenses and prices
were sky-high. It was inevitable that Hitachi, Amdahl and DEC would begin
eating IBM's lunch.


>Here is a perfect analogy to our problem and my concern.  The Wright
brothers had
>to convince the world that such flight was possible.  Consequently, they
had to
>work alone without many resources to prove the principle.

Only until March 1904 when they were ready to fly in Dayton. The four years
after that they could have convinced the world easily, if they had
understood elementary marketing. They kept floundering around and doing the
wrong things, much the way the CF scientists do today. The Wrights did make
good use of their obscurity in 1904 and '05 to improve the machine and file
for a patent. Perhaps BLP has made better use of the eight-year hiatus than
I realize.


>  Once the principle was
>accepted, as you point out, every body got into the act.  Now they had to
run to
>catch up and were soon overtaken.  Sure they made some money but they were no
>longer part of the "system", except for their fame.

They might have been central to the system, and they might have made far
more money than they did. Unfortunately, Wilbur died in 1912, just as
things got going and the money started to roll in. Orville's heart was not
in it after that. Their European and American friends in high finance later
said they sold the invention for a song. Truth be told, neither of them was
much interested in great wealth. After they made a few million, they wanted
to do more experiments and tinker, which is what Orville did.


>I suggest BLP now has examples of unique chemical compounds, has heavy-duty
>investors, and has a patent.  This seems to me to be substantial progress.

I do not think it has been worth an 8-year delay. The income stream and the
billions they might have earned may be gone forever, because someone else
may come out of nowhere and preempt them. In my opinion, you should never
pass up an opportunity and leave money on the table, hoping for something
better later on.


>The fact that Microsoft could push Apple out of the market using DOS
certainly
>means something.

I think that is incorrect. DOS was no threat to the Mac. On the contrary,
the Mac would have destroyed DOS. Windows 1 and 2 were hopeless. Only
Windows 3 had the power to hurt Apple. Apple could have easily countered
the threat by migrating their OS to the IBM PC. Many people within and
outside Apple expected they would, including me. In 1991, they demonstrated
a prototype of Apple System 7.0 for the IBM PS/2, but the managers decided
it would cannibalize their hardware profits, so they dropped the product,
and destroyed the company. (See Cringley, p. 308 - 311.)


>DOS not only grew but
>the company was allowed to rip off the system used by Apple and call it
Windows.

It would be more fair to say they ripped off Xerox PARC, which, as it
happened, had no interest in selling the product anyway. Apple and
Microsoft borrowed (or "ripped off") the idea from Xerox at the same time,
but Apple got to market first, which did not surprise anyone.


>To make matters worse, the rip off is still a piece of junk compared to the
>original, yet it still grows.

That's the magic or marketing.


>I would not mind if Microsoft were a monopoly as
>long as they did a good job.

A monopoly never does a good job. There is no motivation.


>When a product is very useful compared to the other alternative, such as a
car
>compared to a horse, a lot of limitation in the car can be tolerated. . . .

The early automobiles (1880 - 1900) were nowhere near as good as horses.
They cost much more, they were inconvenient, unreliable, dangerous toys for
irresponsible, mechanically inclined rich young men. You could not buy
decent fuel for them, and you had to do all your own repairs. People trying
to crank them up were sometimes bashed in the face, and killed. (This
happened to a friend of Charles Kettering, which is one the reasons he
invented the automatic starter.) Cars were mainly good for getting yourself
covered with oil, stuck in the mud, hospitalized or dead. Even in the 1920s
they remained so difficult to operate and cantankerous, parents often
depended on their children operate them, the way some parents today depend
on kids to fix the computers. When my mother figured out how to drive at
age 13, my grandparents were pleased to let her take over permanently.
(This was in New York City circa 1925, when traffic and licensing laws were
not enforced much. Cars were a young people's game. A few years earlier a
12-year-old was given a dealership.)

In short, cars were a lot like the early radios, motorcycles, hot rods,
personal computers, and Internet start-ups today. For that matter, they
were probably a lot like the early "cutting edge" flint knives, circa
100,000 B.C.

Without the first 20 years of hot-rod development by irresponsible speed
demons like Ford, the industry would have had no base to build on, and no
skilled people to hire. I do not see how the automobile could have emerged.
As Hiram Maxim remarked, the limitations were not technical; they could
have built the machine itself 30 years earlier. What they needed, and what
the hod-rodders gave them, was the conceptual breakthrough, or what you
might call proof-of-principle. They *demonstrated* that these gadgets might
be worth building, they might sell, and people might want them for various
unforseen purposes. The experts said railroads, street cars, and horses
were good enough. Benz and Ford proved they were wrong. This proof was
needed again for personal computers 80 years later -- IBM and HP developed
them in 1975, shrugged their shoulders, and abandoned them, years before
Apple began. Believe it or not, we need that proof for CF as well. We need
to show people it is a fun toy to have around. It does not have to do
anything -- that phase will come later.


> Or if the
>item is cheap compared to the other alternative, such as a digital watch
compared
>to the windup kind, again an inadequate product can succeed.

The early digital watches had no practical advantages over the windup ones.
They cost 10 times more and lasted a few months. They were "gee-whiz" toys
for boys.


>  In the case of
>Microsoft, we have an inadequate expensive product succeeding against a good
>product of similar price, now that takes something special.

Marketing! Marketing, marketing, marketing.


>I do not see CF
>having any of these advantages.

Why it has exactly the same advantages! It is unreliable, useless, and it
costs a fortune. What more can you ask for? Just what the nerds love! Make
it user unfriendly, leave out the documentation, make it fail most of the
time like an early microcomputer, call it the cutting edge of the future .
. . and people like me will find it irresistible. You could sell hundreds
of thousands of units on that basis. Qualities that most people think of as
problems, we regard as virtues.

The trick is to find the right market, and to present the product in a way
that will appeal to people in that market.


>> I didn't care
>> because I knew quality would improve rapidly, and I was positioning the
>> company to take advantage of it.
>
>And, in addition, you needed something to store the data on even if the
method
>was not perfect. In the case of CF, many other alternatives for energy exist.

Oh, no. I had 20 MB minicomputer disks, tape drives, the whole works . . .
This was product development aimed at using the next generation disks.
Nobody "needed" the PC, but everyone knew that the XT was coming and hard
disks would soon be viable.


>> AT&T lost, was broken apart,
>> and component parts have been growing like crazy ever since. Microsoft is
>> too large for its own good.
>
>Here is where the basic character of Gates will reveal itself.  Based on past
>performance, I would not bet he would be so wise.

I think his personality was perfectly suited to take advantage of the
start-up years of the industry, but it is not so good for the present,
mature industry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 13:39:32 2000
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Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 16:40:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A Suggested, possible Starting point for the study of magnetics... (fwd)
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	Dear Folks,

	To help to try to understand

	1]	magnetic circuits
	2]	magnetic permeability
	3]	linear magnetic saturation effects
	4]	local magnetic saturations effects.
	5]	and other effects of magnetism, motors, transformers


	Please see if you can buy, check out from library, or borrow
	Richard Feynman's Lectures of Physics.
	This is a 3 volume set.

	Take a note book, go to the index of each volume, in turn, and
note the pages discussing magnetism.  Then photocopy those pages as a set
from each of the books.  This will wind up to be about 30-40 pages, or
more if you go into the properties in depth.
	Please readthem and you will gain a wider understanding of your
observations and I Gaurantee what you find will:

	a] be far more exciting than the theories you have come up with,
which I am NOT knocking but am trying to give you a better understanding
of the miracles of magnetism
	b] allow you to use and explore magnetic effects with an
unbelievably greater degree of understanding, a far, far wider breadth of
possibilites and real-world utility beyond maybe 80% of magnetic fields'
investigators.
	c] open the doors to an area and world of pure unadulterated
wonder and magic.

	I recommend this as a STARTING POINT to examining the wonder and
magic of magnetism.

	I DO NOT say this is the "do-all, end-all, be-all" of magnetics
but I DO SAY it will give you a starting place of CHOICES not enjoyed by
many.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May  6 16:30:56 2000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: "Whirlpower" is just precession
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The wobble David Dennard keeps describing is nothing more than 
gyroscopic precession. And a ROSE (whatever that is) or old Nortel 
commercials (obla dee obla daah whatever) don't help obfuscate this 
fact enough to make it compellingly mystical and attractive to anyone 
not easily taken in by a bunch of nonsense.

If there exists a powerful spin or torsion field currently unknown to 
modern science, then that would be affecting the behavior of vortices 
in new or unexpected ways. But as far as what DD has been describing, 
gyroscopic precession covers it completely. Should I repeat this? 
It's just gyroscopic precession.

DD insists that this would be a practical energy source. I think not. 
Schemes to tap the precession of large gyros have been proposed and 
patented. This has been discussed here on Vortex. They might actually 
work and gain some net energy from the planet's *momentum* (not 
gravity), but they are clearly not practical in the context of other 
available "free" energy schemes, even some from spin-related sources 
like coriolis winds on the planet's surface. These "trade winds" are 
currently being tapped in increasing quantity as a useful and 
cost-effective source of alternate energy. Here energy is being 
extracted from a large whirlpool in the planet's atmosphere.

In fairness to DD, as a practical matter the precession wobble of a 
large spinning mass *might* be more easily extracted from a liquid 
body than a rigid one, as the problems of large, complicated, and 
expensive bearings for huge masses could be avoided as long as the 
viscous drag on the walls of the tank didn't steal all the energy you 
might otherise gain. And that's not likely, seeing how viscous drag 
sums up on large marine surfaces. Other than that, there's nothing 
new there. Unless...we'd have to see an extra torsion field as in 
DD's claim of "frame dragging", and it would have to be like 
relativistic frame dragging only many MANY orders of magnitude larger 
to be detectable, let alone useable. If various torsion or spin field 
experiments pan out with adequate replication and measurement, then 
this new field could be entered into the equation for energy in 
spinning masses. Then it could be evaluated as to whether or not it's 
worth going after as an energy source. If it remains small at a few 
percent of the total, probably not. But it might help explain things 
in astrophysics and other areas.

All this has been explained to DD before, but he dismisses it out of 
hand without logic and continues to spam all lists, repeatedly saying 
that no one has ever explained it. He just won't listen, or can't 
understand, or both.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May  7 07:34:44 2000
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> The wobble David Dennard keeps describing is nothing more than
> gyroscopic precession. 

Gee, Rick, I don't see the problem here.  We talked about it all the
time in Physics 101 in college.  All you need is a large gyroscope whose
support axes drive a generator while they process . . .

And a frictionless bearing. . .

And a perfect vacuum. . .

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May  7 09:31:49 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: "Whirlpower" is just precession
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>In fairness to DD, as a practical matter the precession wobble of a 
>large spinning mass *might* be more easily extracted from a liquid 
>body than a rigid one, as the problems of large, complicated, and 
>expensive bearings for huge masses could be avoided as long as the 
>viscous drag on the walls of the tank didn't steal all the energy you 
>might otherise gain. . . .

If you have the ability to do this, you can forget about whirlpools and tap
energy from the gulf stream or some other ocean current. (That might be
thought of as "whirlpower," like the trade winds.) The amount of water
flowing through the Atlantic close to the Florida coast is awesome. I
recall it has more power than all of the rivers on earth. People have
proposed anchoring large ships to the sea bed to channel some of the moving
water through on-board turbines.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May  7 10:11:46 2000
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> >I can understand this reaction.  They could not duplicate Fleischmann's
> claims
> >using his boil off calorimeter.
>
> They could have duplicated it easily, if they had not pissed off
> Johnson-Matthey. They wanted to reverse engineer J-M.

This was only part of the problem. Tanaka metals had made active Pd in the past
and I'm sure they thought they could duplicate this success.  Also, Fleischmann
obviously did not communicate how the boiling calorimeter needed to be used.  For
example, the Japanese were not aware of the need to run at normal temperatures
until excess was produced before higher temperatures were applied.

>
> >  How could they expect a high school student to
> >make it work?  You can argue that IMRA ignored Fleischmann, hence did a lousy
> >experiment.  Why would you expect a high school student to do the work any
> >better?
>
> I would expect a high school student to follow orders and to do the
> experiment, instead of trying to reverse engineer J-M.

I would expect this as well, but we both know that teenagers do not follow
instructions well.

>
>
> >> The constant boiling calorimeters with external temperature sensors were
> >> more sophisticated.
> >
> >This design was even worse than their "normal" calorimeter.
>
> I don't think it was so bad, or so unconventional. It was flexible, and
> ideal for working with reflux boiling. Earlier, more conventional models
> screwed up. It is difficult to accurately measure the enthalpy from steam
> and hot liquid at the same time.

Not if the calorimeter is properly designed.

>
>   For this phenomenon
> >to be accepted, the calorimeter must be simple, conventional, and proven
> to be
> >accurate by many calibration cycles combined with a study of the
> characteristics
> >of the calorimeter.   They showed such studies only after the fact and to
> a very
> >limited extent.
>
> They were not allowed to show much then, or even now. They are
> contractually obligated to shut up, indefinitely. Martin is thinking about
> abrogating the contract.

I agree, they could not talk about the technology.  However, nothing prevented
them from showing how they were making the measurements and how the errors were
being addressed.  Quite simply, they did not think this information was important
to the rest of us. This was a mistake.

>
> >> They did, I think. They still do.
> >
> >If so, why do they not tell the rest of us?  They have nothing to lose and
> >everything to gain by such a revelation at this point.
>
> They have everything to lose. Toyota has hundreds of lawyers who could get
> them into deep trouble. I asked Martin why he thinks Toyota would go after
> him if they have abandoned the research. He said he does not know, but he
> asked to be released, and they told him no. As to why Toyota would act that
> way, you guess is as good as mine. Force of habit? Conspiracy to suppress
> CF? Stupidity?

This is an interesting problem.  It would be useful to know just what kind of
information was being controlled by this agreement.  Normally, basic knowledge
would not be included.  Such information would still be most useful to the rest
of us.

>
> >I have no doubt that "Type A" as well as other kinds of palladium produced
> excess
> >energy.  Unfortunately, we do not know what is common about the successful
> >samples . . .
>
> J-M knows. Toyota tried to find out, using ham-handed methods.
>
> . . .  nor how to obtain "Type A" palladium even if we had the money to order
> >it.
>
> Martin says he could obtain it quickly, below market price. Ask and it
> shall be given unto thee.
>
> >  As I understand the situation, J-M no longer makes palladium this way and
> >probably no longer even has the equipment to duplicate the procedure.
> Unless the
> >alloy composition is known and the production variables are understood,
> >duplication of the alloy would be impossible.
>
> That is not what they told him. They said they have the equipment and the
> people who know how to make are either still there, or they would come of
> retirement to make another batch. J-M respects Martin and they will do many
> favors for him.

According to McKubre, this is not true.  I think we need to find out just what is
actually true.

>
> >My understanding is somewhat different.  First of all, they did not
> actually have
> >a liter of good beads.
>
> Okay, they had a liter of those beads that worked extremely well in
> California and at U. Illinois. And furthermore -- to put it vaguely -- they
> could have had a lot more from various people if they had not stiffed those
> people for huge sums of money, and alienated and upset many other allies.

According to my understanding, Patterson simply could not make any more active
material, no matter how hard he tried.  Money and the behavior that we agree was
poor would have made no difference.  The formula was lost!

>
> >The tritium work was undertaken later after bead
> >production failed.
>
> I am not sure about that. My understanding is that were still some left
> over, and there were some that had been used which might have been sent out
> of analysis.

This is an example of the problems when material problems are trying to be solved
without the proper resources.  A person stumbles on the correct material but,
because the work is not being done in a systematic way, the important variables
are not understood.  When the material is found to work, money is not available
to do the required analysis.  Even when some money is available, frequently the
tools to discover the unique properties are not available.  This is a problem
facing all material science and is why successful material science is very
expensive.  We have a material problem but we do not have the resources to solve
it.  Patterson, J-M and others have shown that active material can be made, but
they have not shown how this is done and how the important variables operate. At
this point we have found a gold nugget, so we know gold is present up stream, but
we have not found the main ore body.

>
> >The hot fusion people produce huge amounts of energy each time they try.
>
> Actually, only a megajoule. Lots of CF experiments do better. HF generates
> lottsa power in a flash, but not much energy.

Yes, but this applies to only one cycle.  They can do many cycles per second
whereas a CF cell takes weeks to produce such energy.

>
> > When a CF cell does not work, is it that the worker is
> >incompetent or that nature never intended for it to work?
>
> If you present the experiment correctly and you issue a rain ticket, a
> failed demo is not such a disaster.

That is not my point.  The real world has no doubt that the other examples you
used will work.  They do not believe CF can ever work.  A demo can change this
view only if it is able to produce large and frequent energy.  I suggest you can
argue all you want about small, infrequent demonstrations being sufficient, but I
suggest other readers of this exchange would not agree.

>
> >> He -- one person -- would not have to invest this much. He would invest
> >> 1/100,000th of this amount, because 99,999 other people would also be
> >> frantically investing in it. . . .
> >OK, I would love to take advantage of someone's discovery.  How would I go
> about
> >doing this?
>
> Encourage widespread interest in the field, and when 100,000 others start
> working on it, steal the best ideas they come up with. You must have a
> critical mass of people.

The problem is the chicken and the egg.  I need good ideas to get 100,000 people
interested, but I need their interest to obtain the ideas.  The question is, how
do we get enough money to solve the material problem so that the effect can be
demonstrated to 100,000 interested people?

>
> >In this case, the issue of whether heavier than air flight was possible had
> >already been settled.  The issue of whether CF is possible has not been
> settled,
> >at least in the minds of most investors.
>
> That is only because the CF scientists have failed to present their case is
> a businesslike and persuasive fashion. It is public relations fiasco,
> having nothing to do with science. The data is completely convincing, and
> demonstrations and press conferences could have been set up years ago. I am
> sorry to be harsh, but the CF scientists never lifted a finger to help
> themselves. Some actually fought to prevent the kind of dog-and-pony show
> PR campaigns that have served hot fusion and DNA research so well. A
> scientific breakthrough will seldom sell itself on its own merits. It has
> to be promoted and advertised, just like underwear, a movie, or a political
> candidate. That is the way science has always worked. The "style" of
> selling a scientific discovery (the "sales pitch") is different from the
> style you use to peddle underwear, but the ground rules are the same,
> because people are people. For that matter a sales pitch used to sell
> symphony orchestra tickets will not sound like a funeral home sales pitch,
> but the principles are the same.

I suggest you place too much emphasis on sales.  The problem is that we have
nothing to sell.  Until we have material that works most of the time and the
knowledge required to tell a student how to do the experiment with any hope of
success, we have nothing.  For example, Scott has spent considerable time and
money trying to duplicate Mizuno's work.  This is a much greater investment than
I would expect an average person to apply to the problem.  Yet, he has not been
successful.  Obviously, the important variables are not understood.  Such
understanding is the responsibility of the inventor, not of the person trying to
duplicate the work.  As the situation now stands, Scott will probably fail and
people will have less encouragement to attempt another duplication. I suggest we
must understand the important variables before we even attempt to sell the
process.  Otherwise, we will drop to the level of Newman, Watson and other people
who sell more than they have.

>
> >If I'm wrong
> >about this, why are we still spinning our wheels?  The phenomenon has been
> proven
> >to be real and a large and growing literature is available to anyone who
> wants to
> >make a PR effort.
>
> No, you cannot make a PR effort without a product. If I had cells I could
> demonstrate to people, I would launch a PR effort, but as things stand I
> have nothing to show the customer.

My point as well.  We need a product!  How would you suggest we go about getting
this?

> > Unfortunately, no
> >one has provided the necessary samples which will make heat every time.
>
> There is no need to have it work every time. Probably one time in 4 or 5
> would do.

At this time in this field, I suggest such poor reproducibility would be the
death of the field.

>
> >  In the case of
> >Microsoft, we have an inadequate expensive product succeeding against a good
> >product of similar price, now that takes something special.
>
> Marketing! Marketing, marketing, marketing.

I suggest more was going on than marketing.  For example, the experience at LANL
was typical.  IBM, using DOS had a very good mainframe computer which
laboratories and business installed.  It was so good compared to the other
possibilities that very little marketing was required.  These machines gave them
an installed base and a common language into which the PC could be easily
inserted.  Apple had nothing at that point.  When the Mac appeared, IBM had the
market committed to DOS, a Microsoft product.  At LANL, for example, it took
almost an act of God to get permission to buy a Mac even though it was a much
better machine.  The problem was not marketing but stupidly, closed minds, and
personal power being threatened, the same characteristics standing in the way of
CF today.  Meanwhile, Microsoft rode along without having to do any marketing.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May  7 13:20:40 2000
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Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 13:25:10 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: "Whirlpower" is just precession
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At 12:24 PM 5/7/00 -0400, you wrote:

>If you have the ability to do this, you can forget about whirlpools and tap
>energy from the gulf stream or some other ocean current. (That might be
>thought of as "whirlpower," like the trade winds.) The amount of water
>flowing through the Atlantic close to the Florida coast is awesome. I
>recall it has more power than all of the rivers on earth. People have
>proposed anchoring large ships to the sea bed to channel some of the moving
>water through on-board turbines.
>
>- Jed

It might be a good thing that nobody has tapped the gulf stream in any
significant way. I saw an interesting program on PBS or Discovery channel
(I think) about how conceivably the global warming melting ice sheets could
disrupt the warm/cold deep ocean circulation provided by the gulf stream.
They talked about a scenario that could precipitate a new ice age in as
little time as a decade, starting with the freezing over of Europe. Not to
worry though, it should work itself out in a few thousand years or so.

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May  7 14:49:04 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: "Whirlpower" is just precession
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 14:46:53 PDT
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Since no whirlpools have ever been built before by man, there is really 
nothing yet to forget.  (Before our's that is)  PBS has said a few other 
interesting things recently.  That the "ocean currents are caused by the 
wobble of the Earth."  And that, "almost everything science though to be 
true about the vortex has recently been shown to be wrong and that science 
needed to go back to the drawing board and start all over."

The wobble is not simply precession.  There are three precessions on the 
axis of the Earth.  Three "notes" in the cosmic chord.  The long slow 
precession, then Chandler's Wobble, then the off dead center distance of the 
axis in every revolution.  This third wobble, the "Third Wave" is the 
Whirlpower Wobble, and the one with the most power, and the one unrecognized 
as far as I can tell.

To not recognize that if a whirlpool (not to be confused with a highspeed 
tornado type vortex) has never been built before and tested in a scientific 
manner, and not see it is something most important to explore, one must have 
their head so far in the sand they would make an ostrich proud.

David

>From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: "Whirlpower" is just precession
>Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 13:25:10 -0700
>
>At 12:24 PM 5/7/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >If you have the ability to do this, you can forget about whirlpools and 
>tap
> >energy from the gulf stream or some other ocean current. (That might be
> >thought of as "whirlpower," like the trade winds.) The amount of water
> >flowing through the Atlantic close to the Florida coast is awesome. I
> >recall it has more power than all of the rivers on earth. People have
> >proposed anchoring large ships to the sea bed to channel some of the 
>moving
> >water through on-board turbines.
> >
> >- Jed
>
>It might be a good thing that nobody has tapped the gulf stream in any
>significant way. I saw an interesting program on PBS or Discovery channel
>(I think) about how conceivably the global warming melting ice sheets could
>disrupt the warm/cold deep ocean circulation provided by the gulf stream.
>They talked about a scenario that could precipitate a new ice age in as
>little time as a decade, starting with the freezing over of Europe. Not to
>worry though, it should work itself out in a few thousand years or so.
>
>--Lynn
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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On Sun, 07 May 2000 12:24:45 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>recall it has more power than all of the rivers on earth. People have
>proposed anchoring large ships to the sea bed to channel some of the moving
>water through on-board turbines.
>
>- Jed
What you need is a giant "wind-sock" that "blows in the breeze", with a
turbine mounted in it. Far less infrastructure, thus cheaper.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Tapping ocean current energy
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>What you need is a giant "wind-sock" that "blows in the breeze", with a
>turbine mounted in it. Far less infrastructure, thus cheaper.

Yes, I think something like that was in the plan. Three ships anchored with
some kind of funnel arrangement directing the flow to the middle one. The
gulf stream is a five knot current. It does not take much energy to move
one ship at 5 knots, but three ships dragging a gigantic plastic funnel at
that speed would require lots of energy, so conversely they would collect a
lot if they stood still and the sea moved, I guess.

Lynn Kurtz wrote:

>It might be a good thing that nobody has tapped the gulf stream in any
>significant way.

They have not tapped it at all, as far as I know. The people at Popular
Mechanics have thought about it, but they think of everything. They say the
current is 3 knots; others say 5. See:

http://38.202.43.5/popmech/sci/tech/9602TUOCIM.html

> I saw an interesting program on PBS or Discovery channel
>(I think) about how conceivably the global warming melting ice sheets could
>disrupt the warm/cold deep ocean circulation provided by the gulf stream.
>They talked about a scenario that could precipitate a new ice age in as
>little time as a decade, starting with the freezing over of Europe. Not to
>worry though, it should work itself out in a few thousand years or so.

Who's worried? Side effects are not my problem. As Tom Lehrer said: "Once
rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department,
says Werner Von Braun."

- Jed

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Edmund Storms wrote:


>Fleischmann
>obviously did not communicate how the boiling calorimeter needed to be
used.  For
>example, the Japanese were not aware of the need to run at normal
temperatures
>until excess was produced before higher temperatures were applied.

He wrote a long set of instructions which they ignored. Mel Miles has a
copy; you can ask him whether that instruction is included.


>> JM They said they have the equipment and the
>> people who know how to make are either still there, or they would come of
>> retirement to make another batch.

>According to McKubre, this is not true.  I think we need to find out just
what is
>actually true.

We should ask Thompson, or grab Martin and Mike at the conference and ask
them to reconcile their stories.


>According to my understanding, Patterson simply could not make any more
active
>material, no matter how hard he tried.  Money and the behavior that we
agree was
>poor would have made no difference.  The formula was lost!

The beads were fabricated in the 1960s by a company that went out of
business. However, additional beads that worked even better were fabricated
by U. Illinois, but they cannot make any more because of disputes over
money, politics and patents. CETI might have paid for an in-depth analysis
of the remaining beads from other qualified labs. They had the money.


>This is an example of the problems when material problems are trying to be
solved
>without the proper resources.  A person stumbles on the correct material but,
>because the work is not being done in a systematic way, the important
variables
>are not understood.  When the material is found to work, money is not
available
>to do the required analysis.

The money was available at one point. They just did not want to do the
analysis.



>> Actually, only a megajoule. Lots of CF experiments do better. HF generates
>> lottsa power in a flash, but not much energy.
>
>Yes, but this applies to only one cycle.  They can do many cycles per second
>whereas a CF cell takes weeks to produce such energy.

For the grand finale experiment at PPPL, they did only one shot, of about
10 MW for a tenth-second. That's my understanding of J. D. Strachan et al.,
"Fusion Power Production From TFTR Plasma Fueled with Deuterium and
Tritium," PPPL-2978, March 1994.


>> If you present the experiment correctly and you issue a rain ticket, a
>> failed demo is not such a disaster.
>
>That is not my point.  The real world has no doubt that the other examples
you
>used will work.  They do not believe CF can ever work.  A demo can change
this
>view only if it is able to produce large and frequent energy.  I suggest
you can
>argue all you want about small, infrequent demonstrations being
sufficient, but I
>suggest other readers of this exchange would not agree.

Large and frequent energy would be better, but not essential. People who
disagree should read the history of commerce and science carefully, and
look at examples of controversial, marginal and difficult experiments. See,
for example, the controversy now underway with Judah Folkman and
endostatin, or gene therapy, HTSC or polywater. Lack of practical results
and the inability to reproduce did not hold back these discoveries. Gene
therapy has been going for years without a positive result until recently.
Quoting the NYT:

	"It looks like gene therapy is beginning to turn the corner,"
	said W. French Anderson, who led the first gene therapy
	experiment in the United States while he was at the National
	Institutes of Health in 1990.

	"We're not talking about treatments for lots of diseases in the
	next few years," said Anderson, now at the University of
	Southern California. "But this is certainly good news for
	patients because until now we had essentially zero success."


>The problem is the chicken and the egg.  I need good ideas to get 100,000
people
>interested, but I need their interest to obtain the ideas.  The question
is, how
>do we get enough money to solve the material problem so that the effect
can be
>demonstrated to 100,000 interested people?

We already have the ideas and the data. McKubre's data would have convinced
everyone nine years ago, if there had been less irrational opposition and
the data had been presented properly, with more flair. People like Dennis
Lee and Newman collect tons of money by defrauding people with fake claims
of excess heat. Surely we can collect money with a *real* claims!
Essentially, all we need is a demo in the right place. The ABC camera crew
will come when we call. Customers will follow. Okay, that "all" may be too
much to ask for, but perhaps we can pull it off, with your help. Even the
low power Pt or Ti experiments might do the job. We can start bringing
crowds of friendly people through the N.H. lab to see hot cells, and start
selling similar cells. Maybe you can invite people from Los Alamos? That
is, anyone there is still interested, and if you don't mind spending your
time as a PR flack instead of a scientist.


>I suggest you place too much emphasis on sales.

No, sales are what we need. Sales are the weak point; the data is strong.
It is more convincing than endostatin or gene therapy. I do not relish the
idea of diverting the skills of people like you or McKubre to "sales" and
making you full-time fundraisers, but first things first. MONEY comes first.


  The problem is that we have
>nothing to sell.  Until we have material that works most of the time . . .

That is altogether incorrect. That is a misreading of history. Actually, it
would add to the romance and excitement if we could say 'the cell seldom
works . . . and oh how lucky you are, Professor, to see it working today.'
Folkman has a material that never works (so far), yet he has collected tens
of millions of dollars. The Wright bros. had airplanes that only flew in
ideal weather when the motor cooperated. The machines were as temperamental
as rockets in 1960, and they killed most pilots. Performance does not
matter at this stage. If you are holding back and not demonstrating to
people because you think performance *does* matter, you are throwing away
opportunities. If you cannot persuade people to come, you need to polish
your PR skills and publish a web page and a four-color brochure. If you do
not see any need for visitors, you should study Business Survival 101,
subsection Why Customers Matter. If -- on the other hand -- you don't see
this as a business, you would prefer to be left alone anyway, and you don't
care about money . . . everything is fine! That's how most CF scientists
feel, apparently.


and the
>knowledge required to tell a student how to do the experiment with any
hope of
>success, we have nothing.  For example, Scott has spent considerable time and
>money trying to duplicate Mizuno's work.  This is a much greater
investment than
>I would expect an average person to apply to the problem.  Yet, he has not
been
>successful.

He has never even been to visit Mizuno! This is not yet a serious
replication attempt. I would not call it that until he spends a couple of
months in the lab with Mizuno himself. Mizuno has had scientists from three
Japanese corporations pay extended visits and extended information
exchange, and all three have now replicated. (One of them even gave him a
grant to pay for some of the equipment.) That is what it will take. How
long do you think it took Mizuno to replicate Ohmori? He did six months of
hard work before he saw the first glimmering of excess heat.

How long would it take you to teach Scott Little your latest Pt preparation
and testing techniques?

Obviously, if Mizuno could tell him exactly what to do, or package the
thing up, then our problems would have been solved years ago, we would be
swimming in money, and there would be prototype CF cars by now. Since that
is not the situation we have to make the best of what we are given, using
the PR techniques others employed when they were stuck in our situation.


>Obviously, the important variables are not understood.  Such
>understanding is the responsibility of the inventor, not of the person
trying to
>duplicate the work.  As the situation now stands, Scott will probably fail
and
>people will have less encouragement to attempt another duplication. . . .

Without a visit and hands-on training, I take it for granted he will fail,
given the lack of success so far. I am sure Scott Little has gone as far as
anyone can go with the "remote learning approach" -- probably a lot further
than most people could go. It seems Mizuno does not know enough to explain
it. This is not an unusual situation, and nothing to be upset about. No one
could have replicated transistors in 1952 without going through the
rigorous training course at Bell Labs, and reading Bell's famous
"cookbook." I do not see how anyone could do the conventional electrochem
corrosion experiments I saw at Texas A&M and Hokkaido U. without being
there and working side-by-side for a long time. This stuff is involved! For
that matter, no one does biology or medicine without extended training in
person. Folkman has had people from the National Cancer Institute in for
hands-on training, but even that has not worked so far:

	NCI researchers have worked on endostatin for nearly two years, 
	seeking to confirm Dr. Folkman's data. Last January, after many
	failures, they visited Dr. Folkman's lab where they observed his
	methods, performed the experiments themselves, and achieved "marked
	suppression of tumor growth," Dr. Sausville said. But back in their
	own labs at the NCI, they once again found they couldn't make
	endostatin work in mice.

This is a radical departure from mainstream science -- almost as radical as
CF in a way, and so far all replications have failed, yet you do not see
the NYT, NIH or the NCI denouncing Folkman. At least, not yet. Why? Because
he and EntreMed Corp. understand how to do PR and how to handle the
decision makers and newspaper reporters, and put the right spin on the
story. And because they got lucky, I suppose. Look at the HF program: they
have transmogrified 50 years of dismal failure into a world-class success,
with the magic of slick marketing, mirrors and smoke. And they critisize us
for doing transmutation!

Scientist who consider themselves above the fray and who are unwilling to
spin and play politics will starve. That's the way science works, and
always has worked, and always will. In an ideal world, peer-reviewed high
sigma data from McKubre would win the day, but here on Planet Earth what
matters is image, slick advertising, product packaging, a glowing,
sophisticated web page, and featherheaded celebrity academic endorsements,
like you see on the back of the Taubes book. Of course in academics you
have to disguise advertising and self-promotion, to make it look like
Selfless Service to Mankind. Fast-food companies and caremakers in Japan
have the same problem: it isn't polite to blow your own horn over there, so
they have to do it and at the same time, cultivate the appearance of *not
doing it*.

Naturally, PR will only take you so far. Ultimately you have to have a good
idea hidden under the tinsel . . . you can't sell vaporware forever. Even
Lee, Newman and the hot fusion program will run out of steam eventually.


>My point as well.  We need a product!  How would you suggest we go about
getting
>this?

Take what you have and sell it.


>> There is no need to have it work every time. Probably one time in 4 or 5
>> would do.
>
>At this time in this field, I suggest such poor reproducibility would be the
>death of the field.

Nonsense. Dozens of people have called me over the years, pleading to see
something even as marginal as this. Wealthy people are standing by, waiting
for glimmer of proof they can put their hand on. They are adults; they can
read; they know how difficult these experiments are. Poor reproducibility
has not hurt Folkman or the people who clone sheep and mice. Their
experiments work once or twice per hundred attempts, but nobody counts
failed attempts, and visitor are always willing to come back another day.


>> Marketing! Marketing, marketing, marketing.
>
>I suggest more was going on than marketing.  For example, the experience
at LANL
>was typical.  IBM, using DOS had a very good mainframe computer which
>laboratories and business installed.  It was so good compared to the other
>possibilities that very little marketing was required.

In its heyday, IBM spent more on marketing than all of competitors
combined, and much of IBM's famous hand-holding customer support was
advertising in disguise. They built up customer confidence by devoting a
large share of their resources to influencing people's opinion of the
company rather than improving the the product technically. IBM's focus from
1914 on has been to concentrate on customer needs, marketing and
reliability, with innovation a secondary concern. That was the best
strategy back when equipment was expensive and difficult to operate.


>When the Mac appeared, IBM had the
>market committed to DOS, a Microsoft product.  At LANL, for example, it took
>almost an act of God to get permission to buy a Mac even though it was a much
>better machine.  The problem was not marketing but stupidly, closed minds,
and
>personal power being threatened, the same characteristics standing in the
way of
>CF today.

The intense loyalty to the IBM brand you describe was the product of 76
years of marketing, advertising and customer service by IBM. It did not
happen by accident. Tom Watson understood how to orchestrate public opinion
and win undying customer loyalty. He learned that from Patterson at NCR,
and he went on to make a science of it. Expensive office equipment for
critical applications in large corporations and research institutes is the
ideal market for these techniques. You cannot build up such fanatical
loyalty selling mops, for example, or even cash registers.


> Meanwhile, Microsoft rode along without having to do any marketing.

You have it backward. Microsoft sold IBM all rights to DOS and its other
software for a song. Microsoft would have gone out of business if it had
depended on IBM's success. Microsoft was built on the success of the
clones, which means, in effect, Gates bet that IBM would quickly lose most
of its market share. He depended on IBM's *failure*. His bet, and the trend
he was riding on, was apparent to most industry observers early on, even at
the height of IBM's power. This made for an unloving relationship between
the companies, as documented by Cringley and others. IBM thought the clones
could never compete on price. Gates understood more about the economics of
manufacturing PCs than IBM did.

Microsoft's rollout of Win ver. 3 was the most expensive PR campaign in the
history of software, at $50 million, as I recall. The rollout of Win 95,
which cost a couple hundred million I think, was by far the most expensive
marketing campaign in this history of computers -- and possibly of any
product. The share of Microsoft's budget and expertise devoted to marketing
was greater than any other PC software company from the start. The focus
has always been on marketing, and Gates is a world-class genius at that,
and a brilliant businessman in many other ways.

- Jed

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I wrote:

>> he global warming melting ice sheets could
>>disrupt the warm/cold deep ocean circulation provided by the gulf stream.
>>They talked about a scenario that could precipitate a new ice age in as
>>little time as a decade, starting with the freezing over of Europe.

>
>Who's worried? Side effects are not my problem. . . .

I might add that I am in Atlanta, not Europe, so why should I care about
the weather over there? We could use a cool spell here. Get with the the
program, Kurtz! This is '00s (oh-ohs), not 1965. Download the Zeitgeist.
Bugger thy neighbor and let the Last Fool on Wall Street hold the bag. What
have those Europeans done for us lately, anyway?

- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
> The beads were fabricated in the 1960s by a company that went out of
> business. However, additional beads that worked even better were fabricated
> by U. Illinois, but they cannot make any more because of disputes over
> money, politics and patents. CETI might have paid for an in-depth analysis
> of the remaining beads from other qualified labs. They had the money.

The plastic beads may have been made in 1960, but the coating was applied by
Patterson.  It is the coating which is nuclear-active, not the beads themselves.
Miley applied a coating using a different method and claimed success.  However,
as best I can tell, no one knows what makes some beads active and some beads
dead.

>
> >This is an example of the problems when material problems are trying to be
> solved
> >without the proper resources.  A person stumbles on the correct material but,
> >because the work is not being done in a systematic way, the important
> variables
> >are not understood.  When the material is found to work, money is not
> available
> >to do the required analysis.
>
> The money was available at one point. They just did not want to do the
> analysis.

A big mistake!

> >> Actually, only a megajoule. Lots of CF experiments do better. HF generates
> >> lottsa power in a flash, but not much energy.
> >
> >Yes, but this applies to only one cycle.  They can do many cycles per second
> >whereas a CF cell takes weeks to produce such energy.
>
> For the grand finale experiment at PPPL, they did only one shot, of about
> 10 MW for a tenth-second. That's my understanding of J. D. Strachan et al.,
> "Fusion Power Production From TFTR Plasma Fueled with Deuterium and
> Tritium," PPPL-2978, March 1994.

This was a research device.  A power plant would have the capacity to do this
many times per sec and produce much more energy.  It is only a matter of scale.
You will say that CF could be scaled up as well.  Unfortunately, scaling up the
electrolytic approach presents some serious problems.  Scaling up the Case method
should be easier, but attempts so far have failed.

>
> >> If you present the experiment correctly and you issue a rain ticket, a
> >> failed demo is not such a disaster.
> >
> >That is not my point.  The real world has no doubt that the other examples
> you
> >used will work.  They do not believe CF can ever work.  A demo can change
> this
> >view only if it is able to produce large and frequent energy.  I suggest
> you can
> >argue all you want about small, infrequent demonstrations being
> sufficient, but I
> >suggest other readers of this exchange would not agree.
>
> Large and frequent energy would be better, but not essential. People who
> disagree should read the history of commerce and science carefully, and
> look at examples of controversial, marginal and difficult experiments. See,
> for example, the controversy now underway with Judah Folkman and
> endostatin, or gene therapy, HTSC or polywater. Lack of practical results
> and the inability to reproduce did not hold back these discoveries. Gene
> therapy has been going for years without a positive result until recently.
> Quoting the NYT:

However, study of genes did not depend on using them in therapy.  Money was spent
on a study of genes for many other reasons, many of which had an obvious and
successful benefit.  No one is spending money on CF just to learn how CF works,
as was the case with genes.

> >The problem is the chicken and the egg.  I need good ideas to get 100,000
> people
> >interested, but I need their interest to obtain the ideas.  The question
> is, how
> >do we get enough money to solve the material problem so that the effect
> can be
> >demonstrated to 100,000 interested people?
>
> We already have the ideas and the data. McKubre's data would have convinced
> everyone nine years ago, if there had been less irrational opposition and
> the data had been presented properly, with more flair. People like Dennis
> Lee and Newman collect tons of money by defrauding people with fake claims
> of excess heat. Surely we can collect money with a *real* claims!

One would think so. You speak of flair.  Pons and Fleischmann used flair.  They
held a news conference, they were interviewed by every major magazine, and they
testified before congress.  Everyone in the modern world knew their names - many
people still do. This seems to me to be flair.  Hundreds of people tried to
duplicate the claims with little success.  Many of the successful attempts were
written up in various newspapers. The data were made available to the scientific
community, through FAX, and to the public through various articles.  All this
flair came to naught because the effect could not be duplicated or explained.
Furthermore, the early use of flair was used against P-F. Anyone attempting to
use flair now without a very clear demonstration, I suggest, would be laughed out
of town.

>
> Essentially, all we need is a demo in the right place. The ABC camera crew
> will come when we call. Customers will follow. Okay, that "all" may be too
> much to ask for, but perhaps we can pull it off, with your help. Even the
> low power Pt or Ti experiments might do the job. We can start bringing
> crowds of friendly people through the N.H. lab to see hot cells, and start
> selling similar cells. Maybe you can invite people from Los Alamos? That
> is, anyone there is still interested, and if you don't mind spending your
> time as a PR flack instead of a scientist.

People have come and seen my cells operating.  They go away impressed with the
equipment and sympathetic to the possibility.  However, until I can either give
them a working cathode or show them impressive energy, they are like people who
visit a museum, are impressed, but then go immediately back to their lives.  If I
had a cell producing significant power and could make such samples on demand, I
would gladly invite people from LANL or other laboratories to see the
demonstration, and they would come.  They would come because they could trust
what they would be shown. On the other hand, if I should start a PR effort based
only on what we now have, a few interested people might come, but they would soon
tell the other potential customers that Storms has nothing but BS and can not be
trusted.

>
> >I suggest you place too much emphasis on sales.
>
> No, sales are what we need. Sales are the weak point; the data is strong.
> It is more convincing than endostatin or gene therapy. I do not relish the
> idea of diverting the skills of people like you or McKubre to "sales" and
> making you full-time fundraisers, but first things first. MONEY comes first.

No, trust comes first, then interest, then money, then enough understanding to
make more money.  Our problem is the field does not have trust.  Few people
believe we know what we are talking about.  The reaction of most people I meet
who know of P-F, and there are many, is "I thought their work was discredited".
Right there is the lack of trust.  Until this attitude is changed, we will not
even generate interest, much less money.  If a demonstration is to succeed, it
must be promoted by credible people and it must work well nearly every time.
Otherwise,  distrust will only grow.

>
>   The problem is that we have
> >nothing to sell.  Until we have material that works most of the time . . .
>
> That is altogether incorrect. That is a misreading of history. Actually, it
> would add to the romance and excitement if we could say 'the cell seldom
> works . . . and oh how lucky you are, Professor, to see it working today.'
> Folkman has a material that never works (so far), yet he has collected tens
> of millions of dollars. The Wright bros. had airplanes that only flew in
> ideal weather when the motor cooperated. The machines were as temperamental
> as rockets in 1960, and they killed most pilots. Performance does not
> matter at this stage. If you are holding back and not demonstrating to
> people because you think performance *does* matter, you are throwing away
> opportunities. If you cannot persuade people to come, you need to polish
> your PR skills and publish a web page and a four-color brochure. If you do
> not see any need for visitors, you should study Business Survival 101,
> subsection Why Customers Matter. If -- on the other hand -- you don't see
> this as a business, you would prefer to be left alone anyway, and you don't
> care about money . . . everything is fine! That's how most CF scientists
> feel, apparently.

Our situation is not like the examples you have given.  Suppose the Japanese had
made a big PR effort about their digital watches and sold many.  But then, the
customers soon began to notice that very few of the watches worked, and few of
the proposed replacements worked either.  I know, you point out that many defect
did exist.  But instead of there being many defects, suppose there were very few
working watches.  Would not the public soon stop buying no matter what the
salesman said?  That situation is closer to our problem.

>
> and the
> >knowledge required to tell a student how to do the experiment with any
> hope of
> >success, we have nothing.  For example, Scott has spent considerable time and
> >money trying to duplicate Mizuno's work.  This is a much greater
> investment than
> >I would expect an average person to apply to the problem.  Yet, he has not
> been
> >successful.
>
> He has never even been to visit Mizuno! This is not yet a serious
> replication attempt. I would not call it that until he spends a couple of
> months in the lab with Mizuno himself. Mizuno has had scientists from three
> Japanese corporations pay extended visits and extended information
> exchange, and all three have now replicated. (One of them even gave him a
> grant to pay for some of the equipment.) That is what it will take. How
> long do you think it took Mizuno to replicate Ohmori? He did six months of
> hard work before he saw the first glimmering of excess heat.

You can not expect every person who wants to duplicate the effect to visit the
master.  The methods need to sufficiently understood so that the novice can be
told what to do and what not to do, with success assured if the instructions are
followed.  Unfortunately, Mizuno does not yet know what to tell Scott.  Perhaps,
if Scott visited Mizuno, he might acquire this knowledge by chance observation or
deduction from comments.  If such a process is required, the effect is not ready
for duplication by the general public.

>
> How long would it take you to teach Scott Little your latest Pt preparation
> and testing techniques?

I can not teach Scott this information because I'm still learning it myself.  I
do not yet understand the important variables.  I know only that under a rather
broad range of conditions, active Pt can be produced.  I need to narrow the
conditions much more before Scott can be expected to duplicate the work. This
process takes time and money.  If this process is not done properly, the
situation experienced by Scott vis-a-vis Mizuno will result and distrust will
grow.

>
> Obviously, if Mizuno could tell him exactly what to do, or package the
> thing up, then our problems would have been solved years ago, we would be
> swimming in money, and there would be prototype CF cars by now. Since that
> is not the situation we have to make the best of what we are given, using
> the PR techniques others employed when they were stuck in our situation.

I suggest, until Mizuno and other people can tell Scott, or others, exactly what
to do, we are wasting our time and money using PR techniques.  On the other hand,
I agree with you, we need to educate intelligent people who have money about the
effect and convince them to support the work at a level sufficient to arrive at a
public-type demonstration.  This has been done and has been partially
successful.  Anything beyond such an effort, I think, will backfire.

>
> >Obviously, the important variables are not understood.  Such
> >understanding is the responsibility of the inventor, not of the person
> trying to
> >duplicate the work.  As the situation now stands, Scott will probably fail
> and
> >people will have less encouragement to attempt another duplication. . . .
>
> Without a visit and hands-on training, I take it for granted he will fail,
> given the lack of success so far. I am sure Scott Little has gone as far as
> anyone can go with the "remote learning approach" -- probably a lot further
> than most people could go. It seems Mizuno does not know enough to explain
> it. This is not an unusual situation, and nothing to be upset about. No one
> could have replicated transistors in 1952 without going through the
> rigorous training course at Bell Labs, and reading Bell's famous
> "cookbook." I do not see how anyone could do the conventional electrochem
> corrosion experiments I saw at Texas A&M and Hokkaido U. without being
> there and working side-by-side for a long time. This stuff is involved! For
> that matter, no one does biology or medicine without extended training in
> person. Folkman has had people from the National Cancer Institute in for
> hands-on training, but even that has not worked so far:
>
>         NCI researchers have worked on endostatin for nearly two years,
>         seeking to confirm Dr. Folkman's data. Last January, after many
>         failures, they visited Dr. Folkman's lab where they observed his
>         methods, performed the experiments themselves, and achieved "marked
>         suppression of tumor growth," Dr. Sausville said. But back in their
>         own labs at the NCI, they once again found they couldn't make
>         endostatin work in mice.
>
> This is a radical departure from mainstream science -- almost as radical as
> CF in a way, and so far all replications have failed, yet you do not see
> the NYT, NIH or the NCI denouncing Folkman. At least, not yet. Why? Because
> he and EntreMed Corp. understand how to do PR and how to handle the
> decision makers and newspaper reporters, and put the right spin on the
> story. And because they got lucky, I suppose. Look at the HF program: they
> have transmogrified 50 years of dismal failure into a world-class success,
> with the magic of slick marketing, mirrors and smoke. And they critisize us
> for doing transmutation!

Learning from the master is sometimes essential. However, I suggest the main
ingredient of this story is trust, not PR. Obviously, Dr Folkman was trusted and
respected by the other scientists.  In spite of their own experience, researches
at NCI were willing to spend their valuable time trying another approach.  This
would be similar to Scott trusting Mizuno, therefore being willing to spend some
time and money to learn from the master.  PR had nothing to do with this
exchange.  However, if Scott should discover that Mizuno was making a mistake or
was trying to exaggerate his success, the trust would disappear immediately, no
matter how much PR was used, and further efforts would cease.

>
> Scientist who consider themselves above the fray and who are unwilling to
> spin and play politics will starve. That's the way science works, and
> always has worked, and always will. In an ideal world, peer-reviewed high
> sigma data from McKubre would win the day, but here on Planet Earth what
> matters is image, slick advertising, product packaging, a glowing,
> sophisticated web page, and featherheaded celebrity academic endorsements,
> like you see on the back of the Taubes book. Of course in academics you
> have to disguise advertising and self-promotion, to make it look like
> Selfless Service to Mankind. Fast-food companies and caremakers in Japan
> have the same problem: it isn't polite to blow your own horn over there, so
> they have to do it and at the same time, cultivate the appearance of *not
> doing it*.

Such an approach works on the uneducated, stupid, and bubble-headed.  However, it
does not work on people who have studied and who think.  I grant you that many of
the latter people remain ill informed about CF, but they will be convinced of its
validity only by facts and good arguments, not PR.  PR is useful in getting these
fact to the proper people, but the facts must be present in the first place.  In
our case, the fact is we do no know how to reproduce the effect and we do not
have a useful explanation.  On the other hand, the fact is that we have been able
to make the effect work on occasion and we are developing some understanding.
The latter fact is not sufficient to convince most scientists that the claims are
real. No amount of PR will change these facts.  I suggest we need to address the
facts rather than how to sell them.

>
> Naturally, PR will only take you so far. Ultimately you have to have a good
> idea hidden under the tinsel . . . you can't sell vaporware forever. Even
> Lee, Newman and the hot fusion program will run out of steam eventually.
>
> >My point as well.  We need a product!  How would you suggest we go about
> getting
> >this?
>
> Take what you have and sell it.

And just how would you do this?  Please give my a plan rather than a general
approach.

>
> >> There is no need to have it work every time. Probably one time in 4 or 5
> >> would do.
> >
> >At this time in this field, I suggest such poor reproducibility would be the
> >death of the field.
>
> Nonsense. Dozens of people have called me over the years, pleading to see
> something even as marginal as this. Wealthy people are standing by, waiting
> for glimmer of proof they can put their hand on. They are adults; they can
> read; they know how difficult these experiments are. Poor reproducibility
> has not hurt Folkman or the people who clone sheep and mice. Their
> experiments work once or twice per hundred attempts, but nobody counts
> failed attempts, and visitor are always willing to come back another day.

Any time you have such a request, you are welcome to bring him to Santa Fe to see
a working cell and, with any luck, one which is active.

>
> >> Marketing! Marketing, marketing, marketing.
> >
> >I suggest more was going on than marketing.  For example, the experience
> at LANL
> >was typical.  IBM, using DOS had a very good mainframe computer which
> >laboratories and business installed.  It was so good compared to the other
> >possibilities that very little marketing was required.
>
> In its heyday, IBM spent more on marketing than all of competitors
> combined, and much of IBM's famous hand-holding customer support was
> advertising in disguise. They built up customer confidence by devoting a
> large share of their resources to influencing people's opinion of the
> company rather than improving the the product technically. IBM's focus from
> 1914 on has been to concentrate on customer needs, marketing and
> reliability, with innovation a secondary concern. That was the best
> strategy back when equipment was expensive and difficult to operate.

I know for a fact that when LANL picked IBM, it was not on the basis of any hand
holding.  The people making the decisions knew as much about the computer as did
IBM and the decision was on merit not PR.

> >When the Mac appeared, IBM had the
> >market committed to DOS, a Microsoft product.  At LANL, for example, it took
> >almost an act of God to get permission to buy a Mac even though it was a much
> >better machine.  The problem was not marketing but stupidly, closed minds,
> and
> >personal power being threatened, the same characteristics standing in the
> way of
> >CF today.
>
> The intense loyalty to the IBM brand you describe was the product of 76
> years of marketing, advertising and customer service by IBM. It did not
> happen by accident. Tom Watson understood how to orchestrate public opinion
> and win undying customer loyalty. He learned that from Patterson at NCR,
> and he went on to make a science of it. Expensive office equipment for
> critical applications in large corporations and research institutes is the
> ideal market for these techniques. You cannot build up such fanatical
> loyalty selling mops, for example, or even cash registers.

You build loyalty by pointing out that if you buy any other computer, most of
your software will not work.  As long as IBM did an adequate job, no one had the
need to pay the heavy price of changing brands along with the software.  After a
while, IBM began to screw up and the price did not seem so high. The clones
lowered the price still further.  The price was always too high to go Apple.
Again, I suspect PR played no role in most decisions.

Ed

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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Miley applied a coating using a different method and claimed success.
However,
>as best I can tell, no one knows what makes some beads active and some beads
>dead.

The reason may be unknown, but most of the U. Illinois beads worked.


>This [PPPL] was a research device.  A power plant would have the capacity
to do this
>many times per sec and produce much more energy.

Right, but they have not done it, and they could not do anything like that
with the test tokamaks. I think I read that the engineering problems
involved in repeating the reaction many times per second -- supplying the
power and so on -- would be difficult to master, never mind dealing with
the neutrons.


>One would think so. You speak of flair.  Pons and Fleischmann used flair.

Anything but! They are fine people, but the presentation was botched at
every stage, and they kept making mistakes all throughout 1989. They
confused people, then alienated them, and finally infuriated them. I have
heard this was the fault of the U. Utah patent attorneys. It was also a
personality problem. Martin Fleischmann is said to be a great professor who
inspires grad students, but he is the last person you want explaining
things to the general public or Congress.


  They
>held a news conference, they were interviewed by every major magazine, and
they
>testified before congress.  Everyone in the modern world knew their names
- many
>people still do. This seems to me to be flair.

No, it was a dreadful PR fiasco from beginning to end. They made every
amateur mistake in the book. I cringe what I think about it, even now. At
the time I was amazed that U. Utah did not hire a proper PR firm to
coordinate and professionalize the presentation. And it wasn't just them.
As McKubre said, he has made no effort "explain it to the average person or
average politician." He damn well should have!


  Hundreds of people tried to
>duplicate the claims with little success.  Many of the successful attempts
were
>written up in various newspapers. The data were made available to the
scientific
>community, through FAX, and to the public through various articles.

No it wasn't. It was hidden in academic journals, and presented in mumbo
jumble academese that ordinary people do not understand. It should have
been paraded around in press conference after press conference. Compare the
positive, hard-hitting, soundbite assertions made by the skeptics a press
conferences to the mealymouthed waffling mewing from the CF scientists:

A reporter asked whether there was a mistake in the P&F experiments.

Lewis replied: "Absolutely."

Reporter: "Pons thinks he's proud that he produced . . . this so-called
excess heat, but that doesn't mean anything, does it?"

Lewis: "Of course not."

Compare that to the legalistic mumbling by EPRI years later: "Unaccounted,
and statistically significant heat excesses have been observed on more than
40 occasions. The excess energies of these observations are larger than can
be accounted for . . ." The average reader will not have a clue what that
means. He will nod off by the time he is halfway through the second
sentence and skip the rest. This kind of language will NOT sell. It's fine
for a physics seminar, but scientific debates are settled by soundbites and
emotion, and flashy, in-your-face  "PIGS WITH WINGS" and "ABSOLUTELY!" --
not by cool logic in a journal. Like it or not, Madison Avenue beats the
philosopher king every time.


>All this
>flair came to naught because the effect could not be duplicated or explained.

The effect was duplicated by dozens of other people, including you. When
the spirit moves them, scientists can "explain" just about anything at the
drop of a hat. Look at the skeptics theories that prove all CF experiments
are wrong, such as Hoffman's "theory" that Ontario Hydro sells used
moderator water. Scientists will buy that or any other idea you plant in
their heads -- they are very gullible folk. You just have to know how to
stroke them. A little flair and a  few hundred thousand invested in proper
PR machinations would have turned the whole situation around. Plus, after
people began to replicate, U. Utah should have called a press conference
every two weeks to keep drumming in the good news.


>Furthermore, the early use of flair was used against P-F.

Very successfully! I rest my case.


>Anyone attempting to
>use flair now without a very clear demonstration, I suggest, would be
laughed out
>of town.

A clear demonstration is essential, but it does not have to be powerful
demonstration. What you have with your Pt results is getting pretty clear.
Throw in a few more tweaks, a real-time display on Internet, and a nice big
Madison Avenue style set of viewgraphs and you will be home free. It is
just a matter of making ordinary, expected results look startling and
amazing, with these cheap tricks and tinsel -- the way the HF people do.
Learn from your enemies.

Anyway, who cares how much they laugh? We are not trying to persuade
everyone, overnight. People with money in their pockets will come forward
sooner or later if the dog and pony show is done right. It does not bother
Dennis Lee when people laugh, does it? He knows there are always more marks
in the audience. He will make a good living. The hot fusion people did not
give a damn what other people said about their pipe dream, as long as
Congress signed the checks.


>People have come and seen my cells operating.  They go away impressed with
the
>equipment and sympathetic to the possibility.  However, until I can either
give
>them a working cathode or show them impressive energy, they are like
people who
>visit a museum, are impressed, but then go immediately back to their lives.

Those are the wrong people. You need a livelier crowd, and maybe you should
charge admission.


>If I
>had a cell producing significant power and could make such samples on
demand, I
>would gladly invite people from LANL or other laboratories to see the
>demonstration, and they would come.

Define "significant" power. Do you mean significant experimentally? Far
above the error bars? Or significant commercially? These people are
scientists. They are supposed to know what a S/N ratio is. So make a big
poster titled "SIGNIFICANT RESULTS" showing your results way above the line
marked "NOISE." Highlight that in your presentation. Pound the point home.
And make another poster with McKubre's famous high sigma graph. If anyone
says "that isn't significant," shove the poster down his throat the way
Lewis, Koonin or Huizenga would do. "ABSOLUTELY!" "OF COURSE!"


>On the other hand, if I should start a PR effort based
>only on what we now have, a few interested people might come, but they
would soon
>tell the other potential customers that Storms has nothing but BS and can
not be
>trusted.

Why?!? Your results are impressive. There would be no BS involved, only
organized and assertive presentations of results which they see happening
in real time before their own eyes, and which you invite them to check with
their own instruments. If you are impressed by you present results, why
shouldn't others be? Answer: because you have not educated them. When I say
PR campaign, I mean one framed in with acceptable scientific jargon --
albeit more plain and assertive than EPRI's snooze machine report. Look at
the language which served Huizenga, Hoffman and the DoE so well all these
years: bold, assertive statements couched in academic jargon. 

I do not mean that you literally begin talking like a used car salesman.
Every business has its approved style. Scientists have to keep sounding
like scientists, even when they are shilling. You have a big advantage over
Huizenga or Hoffman. All you have to do is convince people to believe the
simple truth which they can see right in front of their eyes, and verify
with their own instruments. Hoffman, on the other hand, is trying to
convince them that Ontario Hydro sells used moderator water! He has to do
that with a straight face. His audience is highly suggestible and ready to
believe anything he says, but still it cannot be easy to peddle such
outlandish nonsense.


>No, trust comes first, then interest, then money, then enough
understanding to
>make more money.

"Truth" is whatever the loudest, most assertive, most charismatic person
says it is. That's primate behavior. Money is what makes the world go
'round. You may not like it, but you better learn to Worship It.


>Our problem is the field does not have trust.

We have not SOLD trust, or BUILT trust. Back in '89 we let the other side
dominate the conversation and shill their version of the story to the public.


  Few people
>believe we know what we are talking about.  The reaction of most people I
meet
>who know of P-F, and there are many, is "I thought their work was
discredited".

Exactly! That shows how unimportant the truth is. That fake version of the
story won out because the other side mastered PR, and sold it relentlessly
to the public, while the people on our side sat on their butts with their
hands over their mouth, pretending that if you a goody-two-shoes scientist
and you publish in the peer reviewed journals, virtue will be its own
reward. Their side played street-hood rules; our side played tea-part in
the dean's anteroom. They called press conferences; we published in places
where no one will ever look. Is it any wonder they won?!? How could they lose?


>Right there is the lack of trust.  Until this attitude is changed, we will
not
>even generate interest, much less money.

First demo, change one attitude, then bring in the money or an enthusiastic
letter from a scientist. Use that build more change, and persuade more people.


> If a demonstration is to succeed, it
>must be promoted by credible people . . .

Exactly! And first they have to see it.


> and it must work well nearly every time

Why? They don't clone sheep on demand. They don't generate top quarks every
time some distinguished person visits the Top Quark Facility. If it does
not work that, show them a video of the last time it worked with some other
muckety-muck scientists looking at it and making enthusiastic remarks.
Issue a rain ticket. Dazzle them, distract them. Present the failure as a
success. What do the "star wars" people do when their missiles fail to
collide? They brag about how close they came, and declare victory.


>Otherwise,  distrust will only grow.

Only if you lie to them beforehand and claim "it always works." Why would
you do that?  It would be much better and more impressive to lie the other
way, and exaggerate the difficulties, so they are more impressed when it
works.


>Our situation is not like the examples you have given.  Suppose the
Japanese had
>made a big PR effort about their digital watches and sold many.  But then,
the
>customers soon began to notice that very few of the watches worked, and
few of
>the proposed replacements worked either.

That is EXACTLY what happened! It got so bad, department stores routinely
gave each customer two the price of one, so they would not come back to
exchange a week later. See "Revolution In Time -- Clocks and the Making of
the Modern World," David S. Landes (Harvard University Press, 1983)


> I know, you point out that many defect
>did exist.  But instead of there being many defects, suppose there were
very few
>working watches.  Would not the public soon stop buying no matter what the
>salesman said?

Nope, not at all. You misunderstand the buying public. Do people stop
buying Windows 98 just because it crashes twice a day? In 1960 when
automobiles had no seatbelts and were "unsafe at any speed" did people
complain? Heck no, they loved cars! Volvo was making cars far safer than
any American vehicle but nobody cared, because they were not educated to
care -- even Volvo was afraid to talk about safety back then. Not only will
people happily buy unreliable, infuriating junk, in some cases they prefer
that kind, which is why the hobbyist computer market took off in 1975, and
radios in 1920. You will find a few hundred thousand people who enjoy the
challenge of making an unreliable CF cell work.


>You can not expect every person who wants to duplicate the effect to visit
the
>master.

Of course not! Just the first few hundred, or maybe 1,000. You can't expect
everyone to assemble his own computer either, but there are enough out
there who will do it to launch an industry.


> The methods need to sufficiently understood so that the novice can be
>told what to do . . .

At the last stage. You can sell hundreds of thousands before you make it a
science that even a "novice" can handle.


> . . . . and what not to do, with success assured if the instructions are
>followed.  Unfortunately, Mizuno does not yet know what to tell Scott.
Perhaps,
>if Scott visited Mizuno, he might acquire this knowledge by chance
observation or
>deduction from comments.

If he has a knack for electrochem, he can. How do you think Mizuno learned
it from Ohmori? Intuition and practice is the only way. It is like cooking,
surgery or cloning sheep.


>I can not teach Scott this information because I'm still learning it
myself.  I
>do not yet understand the important variables.

Of course. That's why he would have to look over your shoulder and do it
time after time in your presence. That is how all knowledge and all
techniques were taught before the scientific revolution, including such
things as advanced metallurgy that allowed people to make Damascus steel
and Japanese swords. That is the only way to transfer a skill when the
underlying physical principles are not yet understood. But that method
works fine, as it has since prehistoric times. It is wasteful but
effective. The student has to be skilled at experimenting (cooking, sword
making, or whatever). I presume Scott is skilled. He looks skilled to me.


>I need to narrow the
>conditions much more before Scott can be expected to duplicate the work.

Why? If you can do it, he can do it. It is a skill, not black magic. Any
skill can be taught to a person with natural talent.


>I suggest, until Mizuno and other people can tell Scott, or others,
exactly what
>to do, we are wasting our time and money using PR techniques.

No new discovery leaps from being an art to being a science overnight,
without the intermediate steps of teaching, learning and propagation.
Unless more people learn how to do this, the field will die. If we must
depend upon pre-scientific learning methods, so be it. We depend on those
methods for many important techniques in society, such as cooking, teaching
children, surgery (to some extent). Most real world skills are a mixture of
science and art, knowledge and intuition.


>Learning from the master is sometimes essential. However, I suggest the main
>ingredient of this story is trust, not PR. Obviously, Dr Folkman was
trusted and
>respected by the other scientists.  In spite of their own experience,
researches
>at NCI were willing to spend their valuable time trying another approach.
This
>would be similar to Scott trusting Mizuno, therefore being willing to
spend some
>time and money to learn from the master.  PR had nothing to do with this
>exchange.

PR in the broadest sense of the word is essential. We must inspire
confidence in Scott Little, or in someone else. That means we must talk to
them, present information to them, and persuade them. That is the art of
public relations, although you might call it something else. It's like sex:
the principle is the same and the techniques are nearly indistinguishable.
It works the same way  whether you are selling truth or falsehood, good or
evil, trivial or great, underwear or the most sublime accomplishments of
the human race. First, you must learn to get the message through. People
call that skill "PR" "marketing" "proselytizing" "preaching" or "education"
-- depending on what line of work they do.


>Such an approach works on the uneducated, stupid, and bubble-headed.

Right! Which includes 99.99% of all scientists, including most Nobel
Laureates. Read the Huizenga or Taubes book and look at the endorsements on
the back, if you doubt that.


> However, it
>does not work on people who have studied and who think.

Oh, nonsense. You can swindle scientists easier than the average working
man or bus driver.


>I grant you that many of
>the latter people remain ill informed about CF, but they will be convinced
of its
>validity only by facts and good arguments, not PR.

Why do you say that, when they have been turned against it by the likes of
Hoffman, Taubes and Huizenga? When the scientists tell you they don't
believe it, who do they quote? They are pushovers! They believe anything!


>I suggest we need to address the
>facts rather than how to sell them.

We already have more than enough "facts" to convince every scientist. The
data is there. By objective standards, McKubre proved it all in 1991. The
other side poured imaginary Used Moderator Water over our facts and drowned
them. The trick is to stop them from doing that.


>> Take what you have and sell it.
>
>And just how would you do this?  Please give my a plan rather than a general
>approach.

Advertise. Find a prospect. Bring him in. Show him the gadget. Name your
price. If he does not buy, ask for an endorsement instead. Ask him the
names of his friends. If he does not endorse, show him out the door and
find another prospect. That's what I did nearly every day for four years in
the computer biz (technical sales). You keep at it, you polish your
presentation. You improve the product by degrees to appeal more, and
gradually, customer by customer, you make progress. There is no magic
recipe to overnight success.


>> Nonsense. Dozens of people have called me over the years, pleading to see
>> something even as marginal as this. Wealthy people are standing by, waiting
>> for glimmer of proof they can put their hand on. . . .

>
>Any time you have such a request, you are welcome to bring him to Santa Fe
to see
>a working cell and, with any luck, one which is active.

Okay, next time one calls, I will. You wouldn't be available to do a dog
and pony show in England by any chance, would you? I guess the cell &
equipment would not survive the trip.

I suggest you start with a live, continuous Internet cam.

- Jed

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On Mon, 08 May 2000 13:35:28 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>The plastic beads may have been made in 1960, but the coating was applied by
>Patterson.  It is the coating which is nuclear-active, not the beads themselves.
>Miley applied a coating using a different method and claimed success.  However,
>as best I can tell, no one knows what makes some beads active and some beads
>dead.

Here's a suggestion out of left field. In the April 1 issue of New Scientist
(I'm not sure whether or not this one's a joke), there's an article called
"Holes in One" on page 25. Therein, the suggestion is made that microscopic
charged black holes could substitute for atoms up to Z=70. Suppose that
certain batches of Ni (those from meteoritic Ni perhaps?) are richer in
these black holes than others? Such black holes would meet the requirements
of CF to the extent that they would be the seat of localised reaction
centres, and material containing them would generate more energy as more
hydrogen was made to pass close to them, i.e. during deloading, when the
hydrogen is "on the move". The energy would be liberated in the form of EM
radiation as passing hydrogen nuclei get sucked into the hole.

Such an explanation also has other things going for it. The force of gravity
helps to overcome the Coulomb force. No particles are generated (hence no
particulate radiation). The scarcity of such black holes goes a long way to
explaining the lack of reproducibility.
It may even explain He production in that two deuterons literally orbiting
such a black hole would be close enough to fuse, and the energy resulting
from the fusion could liberate the resulting helium from the hole's
gravitational field while the field would slow the helium as it left, such
that no high energy particle signature resulted, and the energy radiated
when the particles initially approached the hole was recouped.
This would also explain He3 and T production, in that any nucleus might be
expected, where sufficient energy was produced by the nuclear reaction to
break free of the holes gravitational field.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  8 18:21:30 2000
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Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
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Robin,
An interesting idea, but how would you identify such a black hole or find Ni
containing them?  Many such ideas based on unique particles have been proposed to
explain CF.  However, the problem remains to identify the novel particles
independent of the CF effect.  In addition, if such black holes can not be
manufactured within a Ni cathode, the idea is not very useful even if they actually
exist.

Ed

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> On Mon, 08 May 2000 13:35:28 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote:
> [snip]
> >The plastic beads may have been made in 1960, but the coating was applied by
> >Patterson.  It is the coating which is nuclear-active, not the beads themselves.
> >Miley applied a coating using a different method and claimed success.  However,
> >as best I can tell, no one knows what makes some beads active and some beads
> >dead.
>
> Here's a suggestion out of left field. In the April 1 issue of New Scientist
> (I'm not sure whether or not this one's a joke), there's an article called
> "Holes in One" on page 25. Therein, the suggestion is made that microscopic
> charged black holes could substitute for atoms up to Z=70. Suppose that
> certain batches of Ni (those from meteoritic Ni perhaps?) are richer in
> these black holes than others? Such black holes would meet the requirements
> of CF to the extent that they would be the seat of localised reaction
> centres, and material containing them would generate more energy as more
> hydrogen was made to pass close to them, i.e. during deloading, when the
> hydrogen is "on the move". The energy would be liberated in the form of EM
> radiation as passing hydrogen nuclei get sucked into the hole.
>
> Such an explanation also has other things going for it. The force of gravity
> helps to overcome the Coulomb force. No particles are generated (hence no
> particulate radiation). The scarcity of such black holes goes a long way to
> explaining the lack of reproducibility.
> It may even explain He production in that two deuterons literally orbiting
> such a black hole would be close enough to fuse, and the energy resulting
> from the fusion could liberate the resulting helium from the hole's
> gravitational field while the field would slow the helium as it left, such
> that no high energy particle signature resulted, and the energy radiated
> when the particles initially approached the hole was recouped.
> This would also explain He3 and T production, in that any nucleus might be
> expected, where sufficient energy was produced by the nuclear reaction to
> break free of the holes gravitational field.
> [snip]
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  8 20:02:24 2000
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Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 23:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Electric magnetic pole 
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	Electric Question:

	If you look at a chemical battery like the standard US 1.5 volt 
AA size cell the terminals of most of them are marked + and - for postive
and negative.

	As to terminology and the real world one set of understandings is
written below.  Please all parties, if you would, respond if this is the
correct model, and if not, please put for anotherrr ... and hopefully ...
usefull one.

	1]	The negative or - marked side of the battery is capable of
forcing electrons toward the positive or + marked side of the battery.
	2]	The terms Negative and Positive are, therefore, sort of 
		  "Bass-Ackwards"
	3]	The current or electron flow is from the part of the cell
with More electrons to the part of the cell with Less electrons.
	4]	SO:	There really isn't a "positive" and "negative"
there are just more and fewer electrons....
	5]	AND:	Due to the historical blunder by Benjamin Franklin 
... who got it reversed and we just kept it ... the + and - signs are a
carried-over-in-history mistake

	________________________________________________________

	Magnetic ... same drill...........

	If one uses the "Left Hand Rule" and looks at a  wire carrying
current the rule works this way:

	1] 	The thumb of the left hand points the same way the current
flows... or from more electrons... the "negative" side of a battery to
less electrons, or the "positive" side of the battery.
	2]	The fingers of the left hand curl arounf the wire in the
direction the magnetic fiedl "circulates"
	3]	The North Seeking end of a compass needle will point to
the left if the compass is held over the wire.

______________	Now it gets really deep, you need hip boots________

	4]	The "North Seeking" end of the compass needle is REALLY
the 'south' pole of the magnetism of the needle.
	5]	And the magnetic North of the Earth is really a "north"
magnetic pole... 

	NOW:  somewhere I might have gotten a direction wrong....

	Help to make the directions right.... and THEN we may all begin to
be on the same page.

	Fun yet?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  8 20:58:56 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: On-line Joseph Henry exhibit
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:55:52 +1000
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799dd0 pop.mindspring.com> <39172502.D9C59C70@ix.netcom.com> <69lehs8qskllaf8tbcmqevrp8gbriskrdu@4ax.com> <391768A4.B5384625@ix.netcom.com>
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On Mon, 08 May 2000 18:23:51 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>Robin,
>An interesting idea, but how would you identify such a black hole or find Ni
>containing them?  Many such ideas based on unique particles have been 

The article referred to itself makes reference to other work, which provides
for a possible detection method, albeit somewhat difficult (IMO).

>proposed to
>explain CF.  However, the problem remains to identify the novel particles
>independent of the CF effect.  In addition, if such black holes can not be
>manufactured within a Ni cathode, the idea is not very useful even if they actually
>exist.
If they were to be identified as the mechanism, it would be useful to the
extent that it would save thousands of man hours looking for ways of
improving useless material (that didn't contain any such holes).

Actually, I'm beginning to doubt the "whole" concept ;). In order to remain
suspended in a metal lattice, such holes couldn't be too heavy, hence their
gravitational field probably wouldn't be strong enough to decrease the
distance between deuterons enough to bring about fusion anyway.
(Anyone care to attempt an "envelope" calculation?)
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May  8 21:44:46 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tapping ocean current energy
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:42:08 +1000
Organization: Improving
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com> <nsvbhs844hel7ppjtcri286ptp339fvkt9 4ax.com> <3.0.6.32.20000508090042.007b6370@pop.mindspring.com>
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On Mon, 08 May 2000 09:00:42 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>They have not tapped it at all, as far as I know. The people at Popular
>Mechanics have thought about it, but they think of everything. They say the
>current is 3 knots; others say 5. See:
>
>http://38.202.43.5/popmech/sci/tech/9602TUOCIM.html
>
Interesting. The velocity probably varies from place to place, depending on
the local width and thickness of the current. It would probably pay to find
a spot where it is narrower, and flows faster. As to disturbing the
environment, I think quite a lot of power could be extracted before it
became noticeable. It's a very powerful current.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  9 05:32:34 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Tapping ocean current energy
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:42:28 -0400
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>On Mon, 08 May 2000 09:00:42 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>[snip]
>>They have not tapped it at all, as far as I know. The people at Popular
>>Mechanics have thought about it, but they think of everything. They say the
>>current is 3 knots; others say 5. See:
>>
>>http://38.202.43.5/popmech/sci/tech/9602TUOCIM.html

A guy walked up to my mother in a shopping mall the other day, and asked if
I was her son.  She said yes, and he told her that his grandfather had built
a tidal generator back in the 60's that was basically just an underwater
paddle that drove a mechanical generator.  He said that his grandfather got
it written up in Popular Science or Mechanics, I don't remember which, but I
do remember reading it back then when I was a kid.  I still remember the
cover photo as a matter of fact.  The guy went on to say that his
grandfather spent the next 15 years taking it from power company to power
company, government officials and everybody else that he could think of, and
none of them were interested.  He finally took a sledge hammer and destroyed it.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  9 10:45:55 2000
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Subject: Interesting experiment - conversion formulas needed
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Greetings vortexians,

I have a very interesting set of plasma experiments going
for which I would appreciate any help on evaluating the
photonic output, because it seems to be far more energetic
than expected.

The experiment uses moderate voltage ~3000v, less than 2
milliamp current and corresponding low total power input of
5-6 watts at 6500 hz. It consists of a commercial plasma
tube centered along the axis of a handwound torroidal coil
of a unique design based loosely upon the "Rodin" coil.
Although a torroid, this coil has an inductive region along
its center axis.

I have also been testing many other configurations of coils
(which have been touted as producing longitudinal waves,
often erroneously called scalar waves) together with many
kinds of plasma tubes for several months. All of these tests
now employ only analog meters (as digital meters and
o'scopes give wildly erroneous readings in the presence of
some of these coils). I have been checking the photonic
output with an Oritech GM11 radiation monitor with data
logging that is shielded with two layers of aluminum foil
except for the 1.5 cm mica window. It contains a
geiger-mueller tube with a threshold sensitivity of 10kev.
Great pains have been taken to insure against spurious EMI
from transformers power supplies and caps. Very few of these
other configurations that I have tested with this rad
monitor have registered anything at all above background,
which is usually 10-12 µrem/hr.

The setup in question however, is producing an astounding
.45 rem/hr at the probe window which is at a distance of 4
cm form the active region. (Yes, the experiment is well
shielded and I am now monitoring it from a considerable
distance. There is no residual radioactivity in the tube
after a run. The coil, when tested with no tube produces
only background levels. The radiation is totally blocked
when a lead cover is placed over the mica window. I can only
guess that the high photonic output is the result of a
plasma interactions that are producing unusually energetic
electrons whose secondary photons are leaving the tube.

My questions are these:
1) If the photonic output were monochromatic at .45 rem/hr
(and with an energy of about the threshold level of 10 kev)
what is the corresponding electrical equivalent of this in
watts? assuming that the active plasma region is a sphere of
2 cm and the rad. monitor is 4cm from the sphere and the
window is 1.5 cm in diameter.

2) Are there any easily performed tests that can be done to
gauge the energy spectrum of the output? It does appear that
the output can be focused to a certain extent with a
silvered concave mirror, so it it may be high ultraviolet
(It is hard to do this test because the coil covers much of
the active region of the tube).

3) The output is probably too energetic for a normal silicon
solar cell to convert but is there any kind of conversion
device available to convert photons of this high energy back
to electrical current? perhaps an efficient frequency
lowering filter for a Si cell ?

Any help appreciated,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May  9 14:20:17 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Interesting experiment - conversion formulas needed
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At 10:43 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Jones Beene wrote:

>The setup in question however, is producing an astounding
>.45 rem/hr at the probe window which is at a distance of 4
>cm form the active region. (Yes, the experiment is well
>shielded and I am now monitoring it from a considerable
>distance. There is no residual radioactivity in the tube
>after a run. The coil, when tested with no tube produces
>only background levels. The radiation is totally blocked
>when a lead cover is placed over the mica window.

Jones, I've seen that happen and it still turns out to be RFI!  i.e. the
metallic Pb is just improving your shielding.  Try a sheet of glass instead
of the Pb.  Even standard window glass will be rather opaque to <10 keV
radiation.  If the glass makes a signficant difference, you've probably got
genuine energetic photons (i.e. x-rays).

If it is real, by measuring the attenuation caused by two different
thicknesses of absorber, we can solve for the effective energy of the
radiation.  For that test, it would be best to use a nominally-pure element
absorber, like Pb or Al or Fe, etc.

>1) If the photonic output were monochromatic at .45 rem/hr
>(and with an energy of about the threshold level of 10 kev)
>what is the corresponding electrical equivalent of this in
>watts? assuming that the active plasma region is a sphere of
>2 cm and the rad. monitor is 4cm from the sphere and the
>window is 1.5 cm in diameter.

I've got a reference that says that 1 mr/hr at 10 keV is equal to 350
photons/cm^2/sec.  If that's right, using your figures above...crank,
crank..., I get a total output of ~1E-7 watts of power in the form of 10
keV photons.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Subject: More from Village Voice
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:32:04 -0400
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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All:

Another piece in the Village Voice this week -- this one about the media 
treatment of Erik Baard's articles on BlackLight Power, Park's errors, 
etc.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0019/cotts.shtml

Under "Bad Energy, Man"

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 10 11:50:30 2000
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I always thought the convention (left from good old Ben) was that "current" 
was considered to flow from positive to negative, despite being the flow of 
electrons in the opposite direction...

This would reverse the "direction" of the magnetic field by the right hand 
rule from what you proposed

Hope this helps

Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 10 12:39:55 2000
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Subject: Re: test # 1 David Dennard (fwd)
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	Some work from water.

	Can anyone find out more about the design the Dave D. device?

	I don't see how the water will keep going around if this is a
closed tank.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 12:50:29 PDT
From: David Dennard <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: herman antioch-college.edu, daviddennard@hotmail.com
Cc: forcefieldpropulsionphysics egroups.com, JhanDavis@aol.com,
    antigrav egroups.com, JNaudin509@aol.com, lmaurer@unitelnw.com,
    matpitka pcu.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: test # 1 David Dennard

This has nothing to do with Whirlpower.

Whirlpower is about a whirlpool not a tornado type vortex at the drain hole.

Whirlpower is about a wide flat whirlpool like a rive eddy.  A river eddy 
has no drain hole.

The input at the perimeter is what Whirlpower is about.  Not the vortex at 
the drain hole.  That has been studied ad infinitum.  What has not been 
tested is a wide flat whirlpool.

The feedback loop and drain in Whirlpower is to maintain balance, to build a 
compound vortex, and to make the largest torus possible.

David


>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>To: David Dennard <daviddennard hotmail.com>
>CC: forcefieldpropulsionphysics egroups.com, JhanDavis@aol.com,        A 
>Gravity <antigrav egroups.com>, antigrav@egroups.com,        
>JNaudin509 aol.com, Larry Maurer <lmaurer@unitelnw.com>,        Matti 
>Pitkanen <matpitka pcu.helsinki.fi>
>Subject: test # 1 David Dennard
>Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:53:57 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>
>	Test  # 1
>
>	A flat round tray is used 4 feet diameter, 4 inches deep.  A
>central drain is provided.
>	When filled with water and allowed to stand this is start
>point.
>
>	1]	Water.... Depth ~  3.5 inches
>	2]	the drain is closed
>	3]	allowed to stand level for 4 hours.
>
>	TEST
>
>	1]	Drain opened by removing thin plastic film held in place
>by press-fit cap.
>
>	2]	Water drains out or the 1 inch hole.....
>	3]	At a depth of about 0.75 inches a tiny whirlpool forms.
>	4]	The WP will go either way CW or CCW ... depending on the
>direction of flow when tray was filled.
>	5]	If allowed to stand 12 hours there was no preference, CW
>or CCW
>	6]	30 runs at 4 hours  14 runs at 12 hours.
>
>
>
>On Sun, 7 May 2000, David Dennard wrote:
>
> > Hi Jahn,
> >
> > I've answered these questions, and answered them before, many times, for
> > John Schnurer and many others.
> >
> > Are you having any luck on Greenglow?  Sure was weird the way they threw 
>me
> > off.  Peter Fred is now going around saying his theory in almost my own
> > exact words, as his.  He doesn't know how many eyes I have.
> >
> > We have made some real good progress Jhan.  Sure would like to see you 
>on my
> > list some day.
> >
> > Schnurer, all I can say is I don't know what to think of you, but the
> > feelings I get are not very good at the moment.  Might be wrong.  Hope 
>you
> > "put it on the bench, Schnurer".  That's the only place an answer can be
> > found.  That's all I have ever asked.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: JhanDavis aol.com
> > >To: herman antioch-college.edu
> > >Subject: Questions, please  The David Dennard Theory...
> > >Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 17:56:36 EDT
> > >
> > >[John Schnurer]:
> > >Dear folks,
> > >  I still do not have a really good feel for Dennard's set up
> > >
> > >  Q:
> > >  1] Is the bottom flat?
> > >  2] Is there a drain?  Is the drain centered?
> > >  3] Does water flow in?
> > >  4] Does water flow out?  If it goes out.. where does it go to?
> > >  5] How.... exactly... do the paddles work... How does power work?  
>How is
> > >it
> > >extracted?
> > >
> > >[Jhan's reply]:
> > >Contact David directly using daviddennard hotmail.com
> > >
> > >He'll direct you to his website and answer any questions you may have 
>about
> > >the setup.
> > >/end/
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 10 14:11:54 2000
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Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:07:17 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: BLP: Dewar trouble
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Well, the 5th Dewar arrived from Pope a couple of days ago and it ALSO is
not performing well at room temperature.  I sent Pope my test reports and
here's what they replied:

>Scott:
>
>One of our technicians did look at the report you sent.  With that
>particular dewar you are not going to get the same results for your
>experiment every time.  It is more of a hit or miss.  They are
>manufactured to be used with liquid nitrogen.  If you want something
>more precise please look into a certified dewar which is not mass
>produced.  If you would like information on them please contact me.  
>
>Thanks,
>
>Shannon Swoboda
>Customer Service

I can't believe they expect their customers to only use LN2 in those
Dewars!! In fact, the Cole-Parmer catalog says about this very Dewar,
"store your cryogens or hot liquids.  These highly efficient laboratory
grade Dewars...etc." (p. 471 in 1999/2000 catalog).  

I've expressed my concerns to Pope.  Now we'll see if they can provide a
certified Dewar for our experiment.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 10 15:36:37 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: BLP: Dewar trouble
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>Well, the 5th Dewar arrived from Pope a couple of days ago and it ALSO is
>not performing well at room temperature.  I sent Pope my test reports and
>here's what they replied:
>
>>Scott:
>>
>>One of our technicians did look at the report you sent.  With that
>>particular dewar you are not going to get the same results for your
>>experiment every time.  It is more of a hit or miss.  They are
>>manufactured to be used with liquid nitrogen.  If you want something
>>more precise please look into a certified dewar which is not mass
>>produced.  If you would like information on them please contact me.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Shannon Swoboda
>>Customer Service
>
>I can't believe they expect their customers to only use LN2 in those
>Dewars!! In fact, the Cole-Parmer catalog says about this very Dewar,
>"store your cryogens or hot liquids.  These highly efficient laboratory
>grade Dewars...etc." (p. 471 in 1999/2000 catalog).
>
>I've expressed my concerns to Pope.  Now we'll see if they can provide a
>certified Dewar for our experiment.

***{Hi Scott. I've been following the Dewar saga with interest. Question:
have you considered modifying one of their Dewars to bring it up to the
specifications that you desire? If you can pump the necessary vacuum, why
not disassemble the dewar, drill a pinhole through the outer jacket at an
easily accessible location, pull a high vac on the thing at the highest
temperature you can safely manage, for long enough to extract the water
vapor, and then TIG weld the pinhole shut using dry helium as your inert
gas? If you suck some helium into the Dewar during the welding process, it
should not be a problem, because once the pinhole is sealed, the helium
will pass through steel or glass until the partial pressures equalize,
while the water vapor, once removed, will be unable to diffuse back into
the Dewar. (Just a thought. :-) --MJ}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 10 16:40:19 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: First Mouse Clone Dies at Age 95 (in Mouse Years :-)
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Wednesday, 10 May, 2000, 13:40 GMT 14:40 UK from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_743000/743579.stm

               The world's first mouse clone has died.

               Cumulina, who was created in the laboratories  of the
University of Hawaii Medical School, died in her sleep from natural causes.
She had reached the age of two years and seven months - about seven months
above the average for a mouse. Her age corresponds roughly to human age of
95.

               The effect of cloning on the ageing process has been a topic
of intense interest to scientists. Recent data from cattle suggest cloning
made them biologically younger and could extend their lifespan.

               The rodent made headlines around the world in 1998 when her
birth was reported in the journal Nature. Cumulina - Latin for "Little
Cloud" - got her name from the cells that were used to make her.

               The researchers, Dr Ryuzo Yanagimachi, Dr Teruhiko Wakayama
and others, took genetic material from the nuclei of cumulus cells. These
are tiny clouds of support cells that surround and nourish a developing egg
in the ovaries of an adult mice.

               This genetic material was injected into an "empty" mouse
egg. The egg was then cultured for several hours before being transplanted
into the womb of a surrogate mother.

               Most of the early Hawaii embryos died, but about 3%
survived. Some of these, including Cumulina, were mated with male mice and
produced normal offspring. Others were cloned and their offspring cloned
again and again.

               When Dr Yanagimachi finally announced the breakthrough, the
research team had 50 mouse clones.

               Cumulina raised two litters before "retiring," and lab
personnel say she was a good mother. About eight months ago, Cumulina
developed a skin tumour - common in ageing mice - and the tumour was
successfully removed. She had otherwise been healthy and active all her
life, except for several days before her death.

               Dr Yanagimachi has indicated that Cumulina's remains will be
preserved and mounted in a new permanent exhibit in a new Institute for
Biogenesis Research.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 10 17:53:16 2000
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May 10, 2000

Scott,

BLP gets their Dewars from---?
I find Cole-Palmer is not the last word in equipment or parts. I've bought
some parts from them. They are like a General Store.
The web lists other cryogenic parts suppliers.

-ak-


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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: BLP: Dewar trouble
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At 05:25 PM 5/10/2000 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{Hi Scott. I've been following the Dewar saga with interest. Question:
>have you considered modifying one of their Dewars to bring it up to the
>specifications that you desire?

<snip reasonable sounding procedure for a metal Dewar>

Unfortunately these are entirely made of glass.  Further, the pumpout port
is potted in some black stuff at the base.

At 05:57 PM 5/10/2000 -0700, Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>BLP gets their Dewars from---?

Pope Scientific, Model 8600, the exact one I've been working with.
Cole-Parmer just happens to distribute them.

>I find Cole-Palmer is not the last word in equipment or parts. I've bought
>some parts from them. They are like a General Store.
>The web lists other cryogenic parts suppliers.

Agreed...if only I wasn't doing a high-fidelity replication.....<g>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 11 10:14:43 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
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Scott:

I wonder whether BLP experienced as much variation in Dewar performance as
you have. The book quotes a calibration constant, but perhaps they got
different constants with different Dewars, and they did not mention it
because it made no difference. It seems unlikely that they would have
better luck with this make and model of Dewar than you have had.

You should ask them, if you haven't already.

- Jed

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Here is an interesting quote from "Polywater," by Felix Franks, p. 8:

	. . . There is also the rule of thumb that, like the boiling
	point, the specific heat of a liquid is related to the size of
	its molecules, and yet another rule states that the specific
	heat of a solid is higher than that of the same substance in the
	liquid state. We shall see that for water all these rules, and
	many more, are overturned. The specific heat of liquid water is
	1 calorie per gram for each degree rise in temperature. For
	alcohol the figure is 0.5 calorie, yet the alcohol molecule is
	three times larger than that of water. On the other hand, when
	water freezes, its specific heat drops to half the liquid value.
	All this means that when energy is supplied to liquid water,
	only half of it is used to raise the temperature; the remainder
	is stored away in the bulk of the liquid. The ecological
	implications are staggering: Warm ocean currents, such as the
	Gulf Stream, move slowly from a region of tropical climate
	towards the cold regions of the Arctic and the Antarctic, all
	the while losing heat to the atmosphere. The scale of this heat
	loss is not generally realized: Every hour the Gulf Stream
	releases stored-up energy to the air equivalent to that
	generated by the combustion of some 200 billion tons of
	coal---about two-thirds of the world's annual coal
	production. . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 14:46:14 2000
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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:49:38 -0400 (EDT)
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	Dear Folks,

	I am looking for corroboration ... not math, real world
experimental evidence, of  several effects which are often mentioned.
	I will start with one of them which I see a LOT of writing
on... but very very little direct replication, if any, of:

	A) 	The Casimir effect
	A1)	This  is supposed to prove existance of ZPE.

	A LOT of questions... VERY few answers.

	Direct questions:

	1]	Why have only conductors been tried?
	2]	How many different kinds have been tried?
	3]	Have plates of two different materials been tried?
	4]	If two materials have NOT been tried, then why not?

	5]	Does anyone know EXACT experimental details of more than one
	6]	Casimir effect test?  If yes, then what are they?

	If you were informed of a new effect how much proof would you
	need to see?  Can you personally say you have seen such proof,
	in actual physical experiments of the Casismir effect?

	7]	Has anyone replicated the effect?

	8]	Why do only conductors work?
	9]	Has there been a test of dielectrics?
	10] 	Does anyone know of tests intended to account for artifact
		and-or other forces?
	11]	If there is such a thing as a force responsible for
		Casimir effect has it ever been shielded against?
	12]	If these is a force as in item [11] has it been defined
		enough to shield against... if not why not?


	I personally am a scholar of the history and ethics of science and
in some cases an effect is experimentally observed only a few times and
difficult to replicate... and in other cases many many tests are
conducted.
	Some examples include but are not limited to:

	Pons and Fl.
	5th force
	action of an electrical transformer
	polywater
	action of the brush-commutator DC generator
	action of Light Emitting Diodes
	action of lasers

	If a new effect is observed in experiment the general practice in
many cases is replication and-or attempt at replication.

	I am currently looking into a host of experiments which are
purported to be the backbone [s] of modern science and physics.

	Often a given experiment is not replicated.

	The M and Morley interferometric experiment was done over and over
	The oil drop experiments by Milliken were and are the later out
growth of another earlier series of experiments.
	Not many examples of Faster than Light experiments are obvious in
literature.  How many do we know of?

	Cavendish Balance, often replicated ....
	
	How often has the Casimir effect been replicated?



			John "I'm from the old school" Schnurer


	PS:  If this bothers you, to question this, then good!  It should.
	If you do not have any curiousity from reading this, then let us
know, please, why the confidence?   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 15:12:03 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for May 12, 2000
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:37:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 12 May
00   Washington, DC

1. LOS ALAMOS: DISPATCHES FROM THE FRONT
LINES.  It is grim.  The
town is completely evacuated, along with the
nearby town of White
Rock, due to the heavy smoke.  More than 200
homes have been
destroyed, mostly in older Northern and
Western sections of Los
Alamos along with isolated houses along the
edges of canyons. 
Fires have gone into the Laboratory areas,
but there seems to be
no loss of buildings on the site.  There is
no threat to stores
of high explosives or plutonium, which are
kept in secure
bunkers.  Things quieted down somewhat this
morning, but the wind
picks up in the afternoon.  So far, no lives
have been lost. 

2. MISSILE DEFENSE: APS DECLARES TESTING
FALLS "FAR SHORT."  At
its meeting two weeks ago in Long Beach, CA,
the APS Council
declared that: "The United States should not
make a deployment
decision relative to the planned National
Missile Defense (NMD)
system unless that system is shown -- through
analysis and
intercept tests -- to be effective against
the types of offensive
countermeasures that an attacker could
reasonably be expected to
deploy with its long-range missiles."  With
President Clinton
currently scheduled to make a deployment
decision in October (WN
14 Apr 00), the statement warns that: "The
tests that have been
conducted or are planned for the period fall
far short of those
required to provide confidence in the
technical feasibility
called for in last year's NMD deployment
legislation."  

3. SECRETS: JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REASSESSES
DOWNLOADING CASES.  So
far the public outcry over the disparity in
the treatment of Los
Alamos weapons scientist Wen Ho Lee and
former CIA director John
Deutch does not appear to have softened the
harsh treatment of
Lee (WN 21 Apr 00).  Instead, it may have
influenced a decision
this week to launch a criminal investigation
into Deutch's
handling of classified material.  However,
the Justice Department
has decided to replace the prosecutor who has
aggressively
pursued the Lee case from the beginning.  The
change comes at a
critical time: the judge is hearing arguments
on defense motions
to introduce all the downloaded information
at the trial.  

4. ALTERNATIVE SCIENCE: CONGRESS BRIEFED ON
INTELLIGENT DESIGN.
Darwin took a pounding on Wednesday when The
Discovery Institute
(www.crsc.org) brought its top guns to
Capitol Hill to brief
members and their staffs on the need for
"Intelligent Design" in
public school science curricula as an
alternative to Darwinian
evolution.  They portray ID as the scientific
middle ground
between biblical literalists and Darwinists. 
The controversy,
however, is not a debate between scientists. 
Brown biologist Ken
Miller, an outspoken critic of the ID
movement, asks, "How many
papers on intelligent design have been
published in the peer
reviewed scientific literature?"  The answer,
Miller says, "is 
none."  Next week: Who in Congress is
supporting the ID movement?

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions
are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS,
but they should be."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 16:58:18 2000
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 college.edu>
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At 05:49 PM 5/12/2000 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:

>	1]	Why have only conductors been tried?

The first experiment, by Isrealachvelli (sp?) and Tabor, performed at
Oxford, employed mica surfaces and the corrected for the effect of the
dielectric constant of mica.

>	2]	How many different kinds have been tried?
>	3]	Have plates of two different materials been tried?
>	4]	If two materials have NOT been tried, then why not?
>	5]	Does anyone know EXACT experimental details of more than one
>	6]	Casimir effect test?  If yes, then what are they?

Check out:  http://focus.aps.org/v2/st28.html


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 18:22:02 2000
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Subject: Re: Casismir (fwd)
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Hi John:

Great note; great observations; great questions!  What is the Casimir
effect?  I seem to have heard of it before, but at this moment my tired
brain cannot recall anything, and I am too tired to go search the Web!

Thanks!
in grace and peace,
--Vinny


At 05:49 PM 5/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>	Dear Folks,
>
>	I am looking for corroboration ... not math, real world
>experimental evidence, of  several effects which are often mentioned.
>	I will start with one of them which I see a LOT of writing
>on... but very very little direct replication, if any, of:
>
>	A) 	The Casimir effect
>	A1)	This  is supposed to prove existance of ZPE.
>
>	A LOT of questions... VERY few answers.
>
>	Direct questions:
>
>	1]	Why have only conductors been tried?
>	2]	How many different kinds have been tried?
>	3]	Have plates of two different materials been tried?
>	4]	If two materials have NOT been tried, then why not?
>
>	5]	Does anyone know EXACT experimental details of more than one
>	6]	Casimir effect test?  If yes, then what are they?
>
>	If you were informed of a new effect how much proof would you
>	need to see?  Can you personally say you have seen such proof,
>	in actual physical experiments of the Casismir effect?
>
>	7]	Has anyone replicated the effect?
>
>	8]	Why do only conductors work?
>	9]	Has there been a test of dielectrics?
>	10] 	Does anyone know of tests intended to account for artifact
>		and-or other forces?
>	11]	If there is such a thing as a force responsible for
>		Casimir effect has it ever been shielded against?
>	12]	If these is a force as in item [11] has it been defined
>		enough to shield against... if not why not?
>
>
>	I personally am a scholar of the history and ethics of science and
>in some cases an effect is experimentally observed only a few times and
>difficult to replicate... and in other cases many many tests are
>conducted.
>	Some examples include but are not limited to:
>
>	Pons and Fl.
>	5th force
>	action of an electrical transformer
>	polywater
>	action of the brush-commutator DC generator
>	action of Light Emitting Diodes
>	action of lasers
>
>	If a new effect is observed in experiment the general practice in
>many cases is replication and-or attempt at replication.
>
>	I am currently looking into a host of experiments which are
>purported to be the backbone [s] of modern science and physics.
>
>	Often a given experiment is not replicated.
>
>	The M and Morley interferometric experiment was done over and over
>	The oil drop experiments by Milliken were and are the later out
>growth of another earlier series of experiments.
>	Not many examples of Faster than Light experiments are obvious in
>literature.  How many do we know of?
>
>	Cavendish Balance, often replicated ....
>	
>	How often has the Casimir effect been replicated?
>
>
>
>			John "I'm from the old school" Schnurer
>
>
>	PS:  If this bothers you, to question this, then good!  It should.
>	If you do not have any curiousity from reading this, then let us
>know, please, why the confidence?   
>
>
Vinny Pinto
vinny mindspring.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 19:11:31 2000
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May 12, 2,000

Vortex,

Dr. Thomas N. Claytor has an lanl.gov e-mail
address. I hope he is ok in the Los Alamos
fire storm.

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 19:15:00 2000
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Folks,
> 
>         I am looking for corroboration ... not math, real world
> experimental evidence, of  several effects which are often mentioned.
>         I will start with one of them which I see a LOT of writing
> on... but very very little direct replication, if any, of:
> 
>         A)      The Casimir effect
>         A1)     This  is supposed to prove existance of ZPE.

Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System suggests that there is an inversion
when two objects
are closer than unit length (45.6nm). Since unit length
is the quantum of length, and nothing can actually get closer than that,
when
objects appear to be closer or are pushed "closer" they must spread
apart in
3D time, and gravity becomes repulsive, but the "expansion of the
universe" force
becomes attractive (the universe expands outward from unit length, not
zero).
It is this expansion of the universe inward that accounts for the
cohesion of
solids.  The Casimir effect appears to be a manifestation of that.

There is no zero point energy in the Reciprocal System.  See "Basic
Properties
of Matter" by Larson.

http://www.interpres.cz/sr/rs/dimmot/index.htm

-- 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 19:34:17 2000
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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:37:07 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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To all,
Tom lives in White Rock which was not burned.
However, White Rock was evacuated and Tom and his
family had to find temporary quarters in Santa
Fe.  He will be able to return home in about a
week, or so they say.  However, I expect LANL will
be shut down for most of the month if not longer.
The town looks like a war zone and will require a
lot of repair to make it livable. About 230 homes
were completely destroyed with a similar number
damaged.  Many people who work at the lab will not
have their minds on their jobs any time soon.  In
addition, we will have to see just how effectively
the promises made by the government are
implemented.  If past behavior is any indication,
repair will not go very fast nor very smoothly.

Ed Storms

Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> May 12, 2,000
>
> Vortex,
>
> Dr. Thomas N. Claytor has an lanl.gov e-mail
> address. I hope he is ok in the Los Alamos
> fire storm.
>
> -ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 12 19:39:08 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Hi John,

Dieter Britz reported to the sci.physics.fusion list years ago that he
replicated the Casimir Effect experiment in his lab.  I don't know if he
published anything on it or not.  He did say that the two flat plates that
were pushed together in a vacuum actually welded themselves to each other.
You might want to ask him about it.  There has been a lot of work done in
this area, and there is a fairly large body of literature.  All you have to
do is run websearches for it.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 13 11:24:47 2000
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May 13, 2000

Vortex,

The American Physical Society publishes a
periodic newsletter (APS News) on the
Society's latest happenings and some current
news in the Physics world.

In the publication for May, 2000 Volume 9
No.5, the entire back page is given to the
"Top Twenty Technological Screw-ups of the
Twentieth Century". This piece, reported on
by Marc Abraham, was commissioned by 'Wired
News' (remember their cf coverage earlier?)
and 'Annals of Improbable Research.

March Abraham happens to be, quote: "the
editor of the 'Annals of Improbable Research
(AIR) and host of the long-standing annual Ig
Nobel Prizes, awarded each fall in a special
ceremony at Havard University in recognition
of  "achievements that cannot or should not
be reproduced."

The twenty were selected by the Ig Nobel
Board of Governors. Identities of the
Governors were not given.

The first selection was the N-rays, the
twentieth was the Y2K bug. It covers the
Titanic, Tacoma Narrows Bridge, Challenger,
Chernobyl, Bhopal India, Hindenburg, and
among them as number eighteen, the 1989
announcement of Pons and Fleischmann of Cold
Fusion.

Since there seems to be no copyright
restriction on the content, I will quote on
18:

18>
"In 1989, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley
Pons, chemists of the University of Utah,
announced their discovery of "Cold Fusion," a
simple, inexpensive way to produce nuclear
fusion. The method promised a future in which
energy would be cheap and plentiful. The
announcement triggered a wild financial
speculation and frenzied, unsuccessful
attempts world-wide to demonstrate cold
fusion. Later, it appeared that Fleischmann
and Pons had based their claim on poorly
documented sloppy experiments, and were
refusing to discuss the details. The
insistent extraordinary claim, together with
the lack of information that would allow
others to test it, made Fleaischmann and Pons
-- and their idea -- pariahs to much of the
science community."  unquote.

In the Long Beach APS meeting Zimmerman made
reference to his retraction of the "Third
Rail" with what I thought to be a later
appearance in an APS publication. What I
realize now is that he was talking about this
piece by Abraham since there was a name he
mumbled that I could not clearly identify
("ahbrmm"). Zimmerman was already clearly
aware then of this piece appearing in APS
News for May.

Any comments to APS News can be sent to
<<letter aps.org>>

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 13 12:50:21 2000
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The APS wrote:

. . .it appeared that Fleischmann
>and Pons had based their claim on poorly
>documented sloppy experiments, and were
>refusing to discuss the details. The
>insistent extraordinary claim, together with
>the lack of information that would allow
>others to test it, made Fleaischmann and Pons
>-- and their idea -- pariahs to much of the
>science community."

I think I will print this out and post it on the bulletin board at ICCF-8.
Let it be a lesson to all CF scientists there: You can do good research and
try to publish papers until the day you die, but the APS and the rest of
the mainstream will not budge. They will never admit that the peer-reviewed
scientific literature proves they are wrong.

Maybe I should draft a letter of protest to the APS and ask the assembled
scientists to sign it. People here should sign too, or write your own. I
would like to see what other people here propose to say.

This will not make any difference to the APS; they will never acknowldge it
or publish it, but the Village Voice and Wired might report it, and we
might use it as ammunition against the APS someday. They will not be able
to claim ignorance.

- Jed

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	A little editorial.....


	Dear Folks,

	This comment is not directed per se to any individual.  I am
grateful to Dirgo for putting some words down... I am many times not so
good with words... I know what is in my mind ... but have, at times, a
trouble with conveying it...

	There is a wonderful set here, in text ... see flag and comment

On Thu, 11 May 2000 dirigo34 aol.com wrote:

> There is no paradox. The mass of a photon is all due
> to is speed. At least classically. Actually this is what
> got Einstein his Noble Prize, the photoelectric effect. 
> This is the explaination for why high energy photons
> throw off electrons from a metallic plate. The REST
> mass of a photon is ZERO, NULL, ZIP.

____________	FLAG	__________

"....We know this from extrapolation of theory,..........."

	COMMENT:  To an experimentalist, such as myself, a theory is
justthat, a frame constructed by people to try to understand an
observation....  To go further and extrapolate from the theory is to
take one's self even further from the source... and the source is 
	"What is REALLY happening.. or what is REALLY the nature of
some observation ... and how this is connected to what is observed....

	The theory ... to me, does NOT allow me to KNOW... and
extrapolation is even further from knowing.

	I don't know how to say this any beeter.  I have made observations
and have even made physical systems or devices which "go against" theory.

	One example:

	NOTE:  If you want to see part of the real world result of the
example below, please see May 1994 Discover Magazine and an article
entitled "Brain Powered" ... the filter described below helped in large
part, make the system in the article possible

	Short Cherry Tree Story

	I was building a signal processing systems for USAF and learning
about the process of applying analog filters to difficult and
uncooperative electronic signals. A
certain part of the system used a low pass filter and the filter slowed
things down.  The reduction in speed was a big problem.  I set out to
build a faster filter and was told:
	"You can't build a faster low pass filter of this type." 

 I asked why and the answer was, in paraphrase and condensed:  

	"If you make the filter faster it will be less effective... if you
make it more effective it will be slower"
	
	I asked "Why?"

	The final answer was "The two properties are mathmatically
exclusive"

	I DID wind up building the 'mathmatically unlikely ( I do not want
to use the word impossible) filter.  
	Two key PhDs had to evaluate the new filter topolgy before it
could be used in an actual real world USAF experimental system.

	One said " You are cheating ."
	The other said " You are dangerous......do not change any part of
it and put it in the system."

	SO:  The bottom line?

	A theory does not, for me, help me to "know" something is true.  I
am satisfied only partly... and then only after I have found and read more
than one experimental account and spoken with or written to the actual
investigators. 

	There are many cases where the "Known Facts" change... on reciept
of new information.... I try to dig for the information to satify
myself... and even better, if I can, conduct investigations of my own.

------------------------ 40 -----------

 just like we
know that 
> absolute zero is 0 Kelvin. We've never gotten there,
> (clse these days but not quite there) Now then if 
> someone is able to do an experiment and verifiably
> measure a temperature below 0 K I would be interested
> in it. If you are interested in the physics of this look up
> de Broglie Wavelength in any Modern Physic book and
> you will have some interesting reading.
> i
> Regards,
> 
> Dirigo

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<H1><FONT FACE="Helvetica" COLOR="#003366"><B><FONT SIZE="+6">THE BACK PAGE</FONT></B></FONT></H1>
<H2><FONT FACE="Helvetica">Top Twenty Technological Screw-ups of the 20th Century</FONT></H2>
<I>By Marc Abraham</I><hr>
<P>
<blockquote>

<table cellpadding=2 cellspacing=2 border=0 align=right width=150>
<tr valign=top><td align=center>
<IMG SRC="../images/blimp.jpg" WIDTH="344" HEIGHT="272" BORDER="0" ALT="Hindenburg">
</td></tr><tr valign=top><td align=left>
<FONT FACE="Helvetica" SIZE="-1">Screw-up #4: Successful demonstration of the flammability of gaseous hydrogen.</FONT>  <FONT SIZE="-3"><I><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/5942/hindenburg_index.html">http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/5942/

hindenburg_index.html</A></I></FONT><P>
</td></tr></table>

<I>Selected by the Ig Nobel Board of Governors<BR>
Commissioned by Wired News and the Annals of Improbable Research</I>
<P>
<FONT SIZE="+2">I</FONT>n a century crammed to bursting with screw-ups, a century that gave birth to Murphy's Law ("If anything can go wrong, it will."), it is difficult to choose a mere twenty outstanding screw-ups. Inevitably and unfairly, several hundr

ed thousand worthy achievements were left out. We chose for style and symbolic value, as well as for substance or lack thereof. We kept in mind that technology is a combination of things, techniques, and the people who devise, make, and use them.
<P>
The people mentioned here had reasons - in many cases very good reasons - for doing what they did. (In at least one case, that of Corrigan, some contend that the entire screw-up was cleverly planned as such.) These screw-ups can serve as fodder for though

t, argument, or pure, unabashed wonder.
<P>
<ol>
<li>In 1903, physicist Rene Prosper Blondlot of the University of Nancy, France, announced a great scientific discovery: a new kind of radiation called "N-rays." X-rays had been discovered just a few years earlier, causing worldwide excitement, and Blondl

ot's N-ray announcement caused a sensation. After seeing a demonstration of Blondlot's N-ray detector, American physicist R.W. Wood secretly removed the guts from the machine and then asked Blondlot to repeat the demo. Blondlot, using the broken machine, 

insisted that he was still seeing N-rays. Almost everyone except Blondlot then concluded that N-rays do not exist. This became the science community's great example of why extraordinary claims ought to be tested before people accept them as valid.
<P><li>
On April 14, 1912, the ocean liner Titanic, described by its manufacturers as unsinkable, sank on her maiden voyage.
<P>
<li>
During World War I, nearly all the world's technological innovation was poured into the battlefields of Europe's Western Front. Both sides expected their technology would quickly break the impasse. Instead, it produced three years of deadlocked trench, ba

rbed wire, rifle, grenade, machine gun, artillery, gas, tank, and aeroplane warfare, and the deaths of millions of people.
<P>
<li>
On May 6, 1937, the hydrogen-filled dirigible Hindenburg, arriving in Lakehurst, New Jersey, after a transatlantic flight, caught fire and disintegrated.
<P>
<li>
On July 17, 1938, pioneer aviator Douglas (ever after to be called"Wrong Way") Corrigan, took off for California from an air field in Brooklyn, New York. He landed in Ireland.
<P>
<li>
On November 7,1940, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, in Washington state, twisted wildly and collapsed. The twisting was caused by wind forces the designers had ignored.
<table cellpadding=2 cellspacing=2 border=0 align=right width=150>
<tr valign=top><td align=center>
<IMG SRC="../images/tacoma.jpg" WIDTH="252" HEIGHT="177" BORDER="0" ALT="Tacoma Narrows Bridge">
</td></tr><tr valign=top><td align=left>
<FONT FACE="Helvetica" SIZE="-1">Screw-up #6: A few minutes after the first piece of concrete fell, this 600 foot section broke out of the suspension span, turning upside down as it crashed in Puget Sound. Note how the floor assembly and the solid girders

 have been twisted and warped. The square object in mid air (near the centre of the photograph) is a 25 foot (7.6m) section of concrete pavement. Notice the car in the top right corner.</FONT>  <FONT SIZE="-3"><I><A HREF="http://cee.carleton.ca/Exhibits/"

>http://cee.carleton.ca/Exhibits/</A></I></FONT><P>
</td></tr></table>
<P>
<li>
In the early and middle parts of the century, powerful new antibiotic drugs were developed, saving countless millions of lives. By century's end, careless over-use of these drugs fueled many microbes to evolve resistance to them, thus endangering countles

s millions of lives .
<P>
<li>
In 1952, the de Havilland Comet, a commercial jet aircraft, made its debut. Twenty-one of this first model were built. Seven of them crashed due to a kind of metal fatigue that the designers had not considered.
<P>
<li>
On December 5, 1959, the Malpasset Dam in the Reyran Valley on the French Riviera cracked and burst. Its foundation, which was seated next to a seam of clay the designers had ignored, had shifted, causing the crack. More than 420 people died.
<P>
<li>
During the years 1958-62 a Chinese government-mandated technological revolution called "The Great Leap Forward" caused food production to plummet, which led to massive famine. Under orders, people over- and mis-used techniques that were copied from the So

viet Union (soil was plowed too deeply, seeds planted too densely, irrigation projects engineered badly if at all, etc.) Bureaucracy on all levels exacerbated the problem by decreeing that there was no problem. The death toll from the famine is estimated 

at 30-50 million people.
<P>
<li>
In 1962, Mariner 1, the first US spacecraft sent to explore the planet Venus, went off-course shortly after launch because of an error in its guidance computer program. The error was small: a wrong punctuation character in one line of code. The result was

 large: instead of going to Venus, Mariner 1 went into the Atlantic Ocean.
<P>
<li>
In the early 1970s, the new, 60-story Hancock Tower in Boston, one of the first tall buildings clad entirely with large mirrored glass panels, began shedding its 500-pound windows, one by one. The window material had been used in much smaller buildings, w

here it caused similar problems; the Hancock designers overlooked this fact. Sheets of plywood - more than an acre of them - were put up in place of the missing windows, and for years the streets in the neighborhood were covered with tunnels to protect pe

destrians from the falling glass. The building also caused neighboring utility lines and foundations to crack, and induced nausea in its occupants when heavy winds blew.
<P>
<li>
On September 1, 1983, a Soviet Su-15 jet fighter mistakenly shot down a Korean Air civilian airliner near Sakhalin Island, USSR, killing 269 people.
<P>
<li>
On December 3, 1984, the Union Carbide chemical plant at Bhopal, India leaked toxic gas, killing more than 6000 people and injuring and/or debilitating many more.
<P>
<li>
On January 28, 1986, the space shuttle Challenger exploded shortly after liftoff because a sealing ring failed. The sealant material was known to be brittle in the cold, and the rocket had spent many hours sitting in cold weather prior to launch.
<P>
<li>
In April 1986, the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in Russia suffered a partial meltdown due to design deficiencies and sloppy maintenance. More than thirty people were killed in the short term, thousands more suffered severe illness and/or impairment, and 

a vast expanse of land, water and air was laced with radioactive contaminants.
<P>
<li>
On July 3, 1988, the US naval vessel Vincennes mistakenly shot down an Iran Air civilian airliner, killing 290 people.
<P>
<li>
In 1989, Martin Fleishmann and Stanley Pons, chemists at the University of Utah, announced their discovery of "Cold Fusion," a simple, inexpensive way to produce nuclear fusion. The method promised a future in which energy would be cheap and plentiful. Th

e announcement triggered wild financial speculation and frenzied, unsuccessful attempts worldwide to demonstrate cold fusion. Later, it appeared that Fleischmann and Pons had based their claim on poorly documented, sloppy experiments, and were refusing to

 discuss the details. The insistent, extraordinary claim, together with the lack of information that would allow others to test it, made Fleischmann and Pons-and their idea-pariahs to much of the science community.
<P>
<li>
Juan Pablo Davila worked for the Chilean government-owned Codelco Company. In 1994, while trading commodities via computer, Davila accidently typed "buy" when he meant to type "sell." After realizing his mistake, he went into a frenzy of buying and sellin

g, ultimately losing approximately .5% of the country's gross national product. His name thereupon became a verb, "davilar," meaning "to screw up royally."
<P>
<li>
And finally, comes the Y2K computer bug, the nature of which is all too well known to turn-of-the-century readers.
</ol>
<P>
<I>Marc Abraham is the editor of the <B>Annals of Improbable Research</B> (AIR) and host of the long-standing annual Ig Nobel Prizes, awarded each fall in a special ceremony at Harvard University in recognition of "achievements that cannot or should not b

e reproduced." <A HREF="http://www.aps.org/apsnews/1299/129909.html">(See <B>APS News</B>, December 1999, for last year's Ig Nobel Prize recipients.)</A></I>
</blockquote>
<p>
<p>
<HR>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May 14 01:16:43 2000
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Gnorts,

The APS does a remarkable job of pointing out frauds, and mishaps in other
industries that cost a few million bucks, in fact they seem to have full
time people looking for little mistakes like this for a good reason.  It
takes away the attention of people to the unthinkable disasters, frauds, and
misjudgements of their own industry.  The results of these problems have
already cost hundreds of billions of dollars and many, many lives.  Now in
its usual surreal way, the APS and its lobbying wing, the US State
Department are proposing that the solution is more nuclear power plants, and
waste storage sites.  The commercial value of the site in Russia for Minatom
alone is around 150 billion dollars, over a billion of that going to a
former CIA director's (Webster) firm, and the US State Department is urging
other countries to develop several more.

We have proven remediation techniques.  We have alternate ways of generating
power.  We have had some of these technologies for some time now.  These
technologies have been either ignored or attempts have been made to actively
suppress them.  The APS needs to be investigated for criminal fraud.  Any
government official who is lobbying for the proliferation of nuclear power
needs to be investigated for criminal fraud.  This industry and it's
parasitic support systems need to be shut down.

I noticed that the BNFC contract was pulled at Hanford recently in response
to the outcry of the public, but the rest of their contracts are still in
place.  We are not looking for a compromise here.  We want that company out
of business completely.  We want the nuclear waste cleaned up by a
responsible firm without the cost of corruption of crooks like this.  We
want the money that has been paid out returned.  10 billion dollars per site
would fix a lot of problems in this world.  We want the people responsible
for arranging those contracts to be replaced.  You cannot fool around with
that stuff.

Knuke
*************************************

NATURE & POLITICS

Global Warming? Bring On the Nukes! [1,494]

The latest bad news about global warming: the threat of climate change is
being used to help resurrect the moribund nuclear power industry, and
people close to Al Gore are leading the charge. "Only one
technology--advanced nuclear reactors--offers a realistic promise of
contributing substantially to the world's burgeoning need for large
base-load power production without exacerbating the hazards of
environmental contamination and catastrophic climate change," said U.S.
Ambassador John B. Ritch.

Ritch made these bracing comments during his keynote address at the
International Conference on the Safety of Radioactive Waste Management held
on March 16 in Cordova, Spain. Since 1994, Ritch, a close friend of Al Gore
and assistant secretary of state Strobe Talbott, has served as the U.S.
representative to the United Nations Organizations in Vienna, including the
Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization and the International Atomic
Energy Commission, which sponsored the Cordova conference.

Repeatedly invoking the specter of global warming, Ritch told his fellow
ministers that global climate change is "a security threat as grave, over
time, as the danger of nuclear war." Dismissing the potential of renewable
energy sources, Ritch claimed to the admiring crowd that only nuclear
energy was capable of providing enough power to meet the world's burgeoning
energy needs without contributing to global warming. "Nuclear power is a
technology whose time has come," Ritch said, repeating a refrain that has
been heard off-and-on since Dwight Eisenhower's "atoms for peace" program
of the 1950s.

Ritch dismissed concerns that a new generation of nuclear plants might
spark increased proliferation of nuclear weapons by saying, rather weakly,
that such an action would turn the nation "into an international pariah"--a
distinction already held by the nations he pointed to as the most likely to
continue questing for a nuclear arsenal: Iraq and North Korea.

Ritch, who served in the Korean DMZ while in the Army, assured his audience
that fears of a new nuclear arms race were misplaced. "The world is turning
decisively away from nuclear weapons--and erecting strong barriers against
recidivism." A few days later both Russia and China were reported to have
recently upgraded their nuclear weapons capabilities, largely in response
to U.S. plans to breach the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty and go forward
with a new Star Wars-style missile defense system.

The recent tests by Pakistan and India also shouldn't deter the world from
building more nuclear plants. "The potential for nuclear weapons
proliferation is a threat so narrow in scope that it must not cloud our
consideration of an energy source of broad and arguably urgent importance
to mankind.

Much of the opposition to nuclear power, Ritch suggested, is based on the
rhetoric of eco-paranoids who believe that "a nuclear power plant itself
constitutes a kind of bomb." Ritch, who traded in his career as a
congressional staffer to become a DC landlord and the CEO of a nutritional
supplement/vitamin company called California Fitness, ridiculed such
thinking and said that new nuclear power plants are "exemplars of safe
design."

Ritch must have overlooked the recent spate of bad news about Russian
reactors, where seven have been shut down because of malfunctions in the
last few months alone. The plants in the United States aren't doing much
better, as evidenced by the breakdown of a cooling system at the Brookhaven
reactor in early April. But even the worst nuclear accident shouldn't turn
people off to the virtues of nuclear power, because, Ritch warned, "the
Chernobyl disaster pales against the threat of global warming."

The ambassador admitted that the biggest drawback to nuclear power is the
mounting piles of radioactive waste, now topping 150,000 tons worldwide.
But even this apparently intractable problem, Ritch argued, is mainly one
of distorted public perception. "Nuclear energy is stigmatized for lacking
an answer to the disposal question," Ritch lamented. "And the stigma in
turn fortifies widespread resistance to answering that question with an
operational disposal facility." Ritch followed up this amazing statement of
the obvious with a plea for the delegates to develop "several repositories"
worldwide so that the nuclear industry can demonstrate how safe the waste
dumps really are.

Perhaps Ritch was forgetting that President Clinton had only days earlier
renewed his pledge to veto the so-called Mobile Chernobyl Bill, a measure
moving through the Congress to designate Yucca Mountain in Nevada as the
repository for most of the radioactive waste from the nation's commercial
nuclear reactors--one of the few firm stands Clinton has taken on an
environmental issue.

But perhaps the stand against the Yucca Mountain plan isn't as steadfast as
it appears. Ritch spoke enthusiastically of the DOE's Yucca Mountain "deep
geological storage plan," saying that engineers had developed a range of
options from the "seal it and close it" option to a scenario that would
allow it to be "kept open, with appropriate maintenance, for up to 300
years." The one scenario not mentioned by Ritch is the one favored by most
environmentalists: making the utilities keep the waste on site.

Ritch forged ahead in an operatic crescendo, forecasting a time when "the
dynamics of the global energy debate will be changed entirely. No longer
will it be possible for debaters who oppose nuclear energy--and politicians
who are afraid of the subject--to utter the blithe arguments that disposal
is technically or politically unfeasible."

In his zeal to promote the green virtues of nuclear power, Ritch couldn't
resist taking a few final potshots at environmentalists, referring to them
as "snipers" and "guerrilla warriors."

Ritch's approach is somewhat clumsier than the normal smooth talking
sermons we've come to expect from the Clinton/Gore team. But the ambassador
is by no means a loose cannon. Both Clinton and Gore have deep ties to the
nuclear industry that have never been relinquished (and rarely talked about
in the press). Students of Clinton's career will recall that he alienated
many voters and the populist/segregationist former governor Orval Faubus
when he agreed to a deal that would have Arkansas ratepayers foot the bill
for cost overruns at a Louisiana nuclear power plant. The company that owns
that plant is today known as Entergy and it has continued to pad the
Clinton accounts with generous hunks of money. And Entergy, taking full
advantage of the deregulated electricity market, is now on a nuke plant
buying spree, picking up plants in North Carolina, Mississippi, and New
York. The company is eyeing plants in Connecticut and New Hampshire, as
well.

"Growing our nuclear business is a key piece of our ongoing strategy," said
Randy Hutchinson, senior vice president at Entergy Nuclear. "It's a key
piece of our growth strategy, particularly over the next three to five
years. It's where the company sees most of its growth and earnings coming
from." Hutchinson said Entergy plans to develop "regional nuclear
generating companies." "We're very heavily into the northeast because
that's where it happens," he said. "Then we'll look to the Midwest or the
West Coast."

Like his father, Albert Gore, Sr., who oversaw the development of the
nation's nuclear power industry, Al Gore himself has always been a faithful
ally of the nuclear industry, even defending hair-raising schemes such as
the Clinch River breeder reactor.

One of Gore's top advisors on climate change is Harvard professor, John
Holdren. Holdren has been a vocal proponent of increased funding for
nuclear energy as a means of combating global warming. In a 1997 interview,
Holdren said: "I think we should be investing far more effort than we are
investing now to try to determine whether we can make nuclear energy a
viable, expandable energy option again. Because we might need it. If we
were prudent, we would be investing serious R&D resources in trying to
address the problems that have made nuclear energy such a difficult case.
We are not doing it now. The U.S. government research on nuclear energy
technology has all but vanished in the federal R&D budget."

But not for long. In 1998 Gore tapped Holdren to be an advisor on the
Department of Energy's budget on global warming initiatives. Socked away in
the FY 2000 budget is $230 million in subsidies for the nuclear power
industry, much of it justified on the grounds that nukes will help
forestall climate change.

All this is being lapped up by the DC-based Nuclear Energy Institute (NEI),
the nuclear industry's $20 million trade association and lobby shop, which
has just launched its "Respecting the Earth with Clean Energy Campaign." A
recent NEI congressional briefing paper, as if reading a page scripted by
Ritch and Holdren, trumpeted: "The amazing thing about nuclear power plants
is the efficiency with which they generate vast quantities of
electricity--20% of the U.S. power supply--while emitting no harmful gases
to pollute the air. In this way, nuclear energy helps to preserve the
Earth's climate, reduce ozone formation, and prevent acid rain."

Gore and his nuke industry buddies like environmental lingo.

<I>--Jeffrey St. Clair and Alexander Cockburn</I>
********************************

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 15 08:09:00 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Casismir (fwd)
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***{Hi, Knuke. I copied your message about the Casimir effect to
sci.physics.fusion with an enquiry to Dieter, who reads that group. The
message that follows was his response. (You might also go over to spf and
read the thread entitled "Dieter's Casimir Experiment.") --Mitchell
Jones}***

On Sat, 13 May 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> Here is an interesting post that just appeared on vortex:
>
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Dieter Britz reported to the sci.physics.fusion list years ago that he
> > replicated the Casimir Effect experiment in his lab.  I don't know if he
> > published anything on it or not.  He did say that the two flat plates that
> > were pushed together in a vacuum actually welded themselves to each other.
> > You might want to ask him about it.  There has been a lot of work done in
> > this area, and there is a fairly large body of literature.  All you have to
> > do is run websearches for it.

Good luck with that web search. This is not true; I have never done a
Casimir experiment. I did once ask the experts on it to tell us how
big the forces might get when you let two flat metal plates approach
each other in vacuum. The answer was, rather small.

So,

> To Dieter: Is the above substantially true? In particular, did the two
> plates actually weld themselves together? This is a matter of concern
> because it would take a hell of a lot of energy to weld two metal plates
> together, and that energy had to come from somewhere. Thus it sounds to me
> like your Casimir experiment was "over unity"! Did you publish the result?

no, to all that. Maybe this refers to Scott Little? But I don't think
he had plates welded together either.

-- Dieter Britz alias db kemi.aau.dk;  http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
*** Echelon, bomb, sneakers, GRU: swamp the snoops with trivia! ***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 15 10:01:07 2000
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Mitch writes:

>***{Hi, Knuke. I copied your message about the Casimir effect to
>sci.physics.fusion with an enquiry to Dieter, who reads that group. The
>message that follows was his response. (You might also go over to spf and
>read the thread entitled "Dieter's Casimir Experiment.") --Mitchell
>Jones}***

Hi Mitch,

I was pretty sure that was it Dieter that wrote that, but I guess not.  I
still have the message somewhere in my own archives.  I can't imagine who
else it could have been though.  I do remember quitely clearly that the
message basically said that the guy did it *with his students*, and that the
pieces welded themselves into a block.  They cut the block into several
different cross sections with a plasma torch to look for a seam, but the
block was solid.  I guess I'll have to go back and find out who actually did
the experiment.  Over the years, I've told several that it was Britz.
Thanks for the correction.

Don't have time to get over to spf anymore, so you can post this to them if
you like.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 15 13:06:31 2000
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:03:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Can't be done. or ..Extrapolation  from theory : Light Speed Paradox? (fwd)
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John
	Please give a circuit diagram and some specs 
about your successful
low-pass-filter. It sounds very interesting

Hank


On Sat, 13 May 2000, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 	A little editorial.....
> 
> 
> 	Dear Folks,
> 
> 	This comment is not directed per se to any individual.  I am
> grateful to Dirgo for putting some words down... I am many times not so
> good with words... I know what is in my mind ... but have, at times, a
> trouble with conveying it...
> 
> 	There is a wonderful set here, in text ... see flag and comment
> 
> On Thu, 11 May 2000 dirigo34 aol.com wrote:
> 
> > There is no paradox. The mass of a photon is all due
> > to is speed. At least classically. Actually this is what
> > got Einstein his Noble Prize, the photoelectric effect. 
> > This is the explaination for why high energy photons
> > throw off electrons from a metallic plate. The REST
> > mass of a photon is ZERO, NULL, ZIP.
> 
> ____________	FLAG	__________
> 
> "....We know this from extrapolation of theory,..........."
> 
> 	COMMENT:  To an experimentalist, such as myself, a theory is
> justthat, a frame constructed by people to try to understand an
> observation....  To go further and extrapolate from the theory is to
> take one's self even further from the source... and the source is 
> 	"What is REALLY happening.. or what is REALLY the nature of
> some observation ... and how this is connected to what is observed....
> 
> 	The theory ... to me, does NOT allow me to KNOW... and
> extrapolation is even further from knowing.
> 
> 	I don't know how to say this any beeter.  I have made observations
> and have even made physical systems or devices which "go against" theory.
> 
> 	One example:
> 
> 	NOTE:  If you want to see part of the real world result of the
> example below, please see May 1994 Discover Magazine and an article
> entitled "Brain Powered" ... the filter described below helped in large
> part, make the system in the article possible
> 
> 	Short Cherry Tree Story
> 
> 	I was building a signal processing systems for USAF and learning
> about the process of applying analog filters to difficult and
> uncooperative electronic signals. A
> certain part of the system used a low pass filter and the filter slowed
> things down.  The reduction in speed was a big problem.  I set out to
> build a faster filter and was told:
> 	"You can't build a faster low pass filter of this type." 
> 
>  I asked why and the answer was, in paraphrase and condensed:  
> 
> 	"If you make the filter faster it will be less effective... if you
> make it more effective it will be slower"
> 	
> 	I asked "Why?"
> 
> 	The final answer was "The two properties are mathmatically
> exclusive"
> 
> 	I DID wind up building the 'mathmatically unlikely ( I do not want
> to use the word impossible) filter.  
> 	Two key PhDs had to evaluate the new filter topolgy before it
> could be used in an actual real world USAF experimental system.
> 
> 	One said " You are cheating ."
> 	The other said " You are dangerous......do not change any part of
> it and put it in the system."
> 
> 	SO:  The bottom line?
> 
> 	A theory does not, for me, help me to "know" something is true.  I
> am satisfied only partly... and then only after I have found and read more
> than one experimental account and spoken with or written to the actual
> investigators. 
> 
> 	There are many cases where the "Known Facts" change... on reciept
> of new information.... I try to dig for the information to satify
> myself... and even better, if I can, conduct investigations of my own.
> 
> ------------------------ 40 -----------
> 
>  just like we
> know that 
> > absolute zero is 0 Kelvin. We've never gotten there,
> > (clse these days but not quite there) Now then if 
> > someone is able to do an experiment and verifiably
> > measure a temperature below 0 K I would be interested
> > in it. If you are interested in the physics of this look up
> > de Broglie Wavelength in any Modern Physic book and
> > you will have some interesting reading.
> > i
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Dirigo
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 15 13:39:03 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Progress in HTSC
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After years of research HTSC may finally be panning out. See:

http://www.amsuper.com/

and:

http://www.bloomberg.com/bbn/updn.html?s=AOSBJ_RWxQW1lcmlj

American Superconductor Shares Rise on Plans for Wire Plant
By Jonathan Berr

Westborough, Massachusetts, May 15 (Bloomberg) -- Shares of
American Superconductor Corp. rose as much as 15 percent after the
superconductor developer said it plans to build a $30 million wire
plant next year, which will increase its capacity by 20-fold. . . .


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 15 13:47:40 2000
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> After years of research HTSC may finally be panning out. See:
> 
> http://www.amsuper.com/
> 
> and:
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/bbn/updn.html?s=AOSBJ_RWxQW1lcmlj
> 
> American Superconductor Shares Rise on Plans for Wire Plant
> By Jonathan Berr
> 
> Westborough, Massachusetts, May 15 (Bloomberg) -- Shares of
> American Superconductor Corp. rose as much as 15 percent after the
> superconductor developer said it plans to build a $30 million wire
> plant next year, which will increase its capacity by 20-fold. . . .

That's great but you don't have to go all the way to Mass. to see
superconductor news.  See:

http://www.southwire.com/news/021800.htm

"Southwire Unveils First Working
Superconducting Power Delivery System"

Right here in Carrollton, GA!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 15 18:12:44 2000
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Bill Beatty Re: Consciousness detector
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	Bill can you figure what the "detector" is ..?  How it is built?

		J

On Tue, 2 May 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Take a look at http://noosphere.princeton.edu
> >
> >It appears that R.D. Nelson and the PEAR labs are using deviations from
> >randomness in a worldwide network of RNGs to detect something.  "Cosmic
> >background PSI noise?"  Focused human attention on a worldwide scale?
> 
> ***{Bill, I was afraid this was going to happen. Your mind has been too
> open for too long, and now your brain has fallen out! :-) --MJ}***
> 
> >
> >((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> >William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> >billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> >Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 11:19:32 2000
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Subject: Re: Bill Beatty Re: Consciousness detector
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At 9:16 PM 5/15/0, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Bill can you figure what the "detector" is ..?  How it is built?
>
>                J

John,

Check the Mindsong Inc patent: US Patent 5,830,064.  See my appended notes
(after the dashed lines below) in this regard.  If you dig around at
<http://noosphere.princeton.edu> you will find pictures of the device, a
description, etc.


>
>On Tue, 2 May 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> >Take a look at http://noosphere.princeton.edu
>> >
>> >It appears that R.D. Nelson and the PEAR labs are using deviations from
>> >randomness in a worldwide network of RNGs to detect something.  "Cosmic
>> >background PSI noise?"  Focused human attention on a worldwide scale?
>>
>> ***{Bill, I was afraid this was going to happen. Your mind has been too
>> open for too long, and now your brain has fallen out! :-) --MJ}***

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I blew it!  Mea culpa!

This is an attempt to correct my problem.  In looking at the claims for US
Patent 5,830,064, the Mindsong Inc patent for devices related to the
methods used in the projects described at <noosphere.princeton.edu>, it
appears that others may have made the same mistake I did.

Earlier I posted on vortex:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Bitwise random number generation, discussed here earlier, is useful for
one time pad cryptograpic use, gaming, Monte Carlo simulations, or possibly
for sensing the world psyche in projects like that at
<noosphere.princeton.edu>.

I suggested, in response to a question by Jed Rothwell, using a flip-flop
driven by a fast clock to time the interval (modulo 2) between quantum
events, like radioactive disintegrations.  Alternatively, and cheaper,
tandem amplifier stages can be used to amplify thermal noise, and a trigger
used to sample the state of the output at a fixed rate much slower than the
noise central frequency, or to count the state changes across a specific
voltage threshold, say zero volts, over a fixed period.  In any similar
method, the output state does not have a 50-50 chance of being a 1, due to
trigger or flip-flop hysterisis that can never be fully compensated,
because it varies with ambient conditions. A complicated statistically
self-correcting biasing mechanism can be used to adjust the hysterises so
that the time average probability of a 1 is maintained at 50 percent.

However, it has occurred to me that there is a much simpler method to
correct for hysteresis.  That method is to invert the interpreted state of
a flip-flop containing the output sample value, every other clock cycle.
This can be done electronically, using an additional flip-flop and xor. It
has the property of cutting the sampling rate in half, however.  The state
sequence of the xor value without correction is 10101010...,  the state
sequence after correction is 001100110011....  The state flip only occurs
at half the clock rate, but the time interval is fully corrected, in
reasonably steady-state operation, because each short interval of the state
correcting flip-flop is paired with a long interval."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mindsong uses similar techniques and also employs the technique of xoring
masks with the random bit stream to attmept to further randomize it,
notably the 010101... pattern.  There clearly would be no use for such a
pattern if the circuit used was not sensitive to hysteresis.

The interesting fact is that NO AMOUUNT OF BIT XORING WITH A FIXED PATTERN
WILL CORRECT THE NON-RANDOMNESS FROM HYSTERESIS.

Suppose for a moment that the timer flip-flop hysteresis is very bad, so
that it is in a 1 state 3/4 of the time and a 0 state 1/4 of the time.
This gives the following probability table for successive bit pairs:

bits   P1   P2   P1*P2
00    1/4  1/4    1/16
01    1/4  3/4    3/16
10    3/4  1/4    3/16
11    3/4  3/4    9/16

You can see that xoring the bit pairs with any chosen mask can never make
the proabilites all exactly 1/4, which is necessary to achieve a truly
random sequence.  The probabilities remain the same, but get shifted around
to other bit sequences.  The uniform randomness can never be achieved.  Any
scientific study or application requiring uniformly random bit sequences is
invalidated or corrupted to the degree exposed to circuit hysteresis
problems, and that exposure is a function of temperature and possibly other
ambient conditions.

So, how to correct the problem?  One cheap solution is to sum (drive the
clock with) randomly varying intervals instead of uniform intervals, which
gives a random walk nature to the measured time of a random length event.
In other words, both the clock timer and the measured interval must be
random and independent.  In the case where the time interval between
radioactive disintigration events is used, the timer flip-flop state needs
to be driven by a non-uniform clock, say by filtered noise from a high gain
amplifier.  The mean frequency used to drive the flip-flop clock needs to
be at least 12 times higher than the random interval measured, and the
switching speed of the timer flip-flop preferably a couple orders of
magnitude faster at switching state than that.  Two independent high gain
amplifiers with high and low band pass filters can be used to achieve the
two independent interval clocks.  Two indentical random interval clocks
could be used, and the timed event duration clock would then consist of a 4
stage (or more) counter so as to lengthen the timed interval by a factor of
at least 16.

Unfortunately, if you are statistically testing for the non-randomness of
such a  device to measure psychic output, your success rate over chance
will likely be diminished by employing the suggested improved method.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:56:02 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Statement to circulated at ICCF-8
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I am thinking about posting the following on the bulletin board at ICCF-8.

I think a letter signed by several ICCF participants addressed to the prez
of the APS might attract attention. He may not be as dead set against CF as
Park. He might be unaware of the conflict. You never know. I have often
come across people who are favorably inclinded toward CF once they find out
about it.

Any comments? Revisions?

- JR

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NOTICE: In recent months, the American Physical Society has stepped up its
attacks against cold fusion. I move that that members of this conference
draft and sign a letter to APS President James Langer protesting this
unfair treatment. Here is a draft statement by Scott Chubb:

In recent months, cold fusion has been attacked in APS publications and in
a book published by APS spokesman Robert Park. Because the information
contained in these attacks are biased,  unscientific, and it contradicts
material published by the APS dnd in the peer-reviewed scientific
literature, in the interest of  maintaining a balanced presentation of the
facts, we request that a  formal statement be made by the APS apologizing
for these distortions and disavowing Dr. Park's comments.

- Jed Rothwell
  Contributing Editor
  Infinite Energy Magazine


APS News Online, May 2000 Edition

THE BACK PAGE

Top Twenty Technological Screw-ups of the 20th Century

By Marc Abraham

. . . In 1989, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, chemists of the
University of Utah, announced their discovery of "Cold Fusion," a simple,
inexpensive way to produce nuclear fusion. The method promised a future in
which energy would be cheap and plentiful. The announcement triggered a
wild financial speculation and frenzied, unsuccessful attempts world-wide
to demonstrate cold fusion. Later, it appeared that Fleischmann and Pons
had based their claim on poorly documented sloppy experiments, and were
refusing to discuss the details. The insistent extraordinary claim,
together with the lack of information that would allow others to test it,
made Fleischmann and Pons -- and their idea -- pariahs to much of the
science community.


On June 6, 1989, just seventy-five days after the Salt Lake City
announcement, cold fusion had clearly  crossed the line from foolishness to
fraud. [Fleischmann and Pons] exaggerated or fabricated their evidence.

- APS spokesman Robert Park, Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to
Fraud, Oxford University Press, ISBN: 0-19-513516-6

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 12:03:56 2000
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Subject: Who! Stop the car, Bob! ... Casismir 
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	Dear Folks,

	Since I began to ask about the Casimir Effet I find only a VERY
few answers.
	If anyone has more, please let me know.

	a]	There have been only three tries at this.
	b]	There is no catalog of possible artifact or even mention
of artifact but that of electrostatic, to be abbreviated ES, for this
discussion.   
	c]	In an experiment in 1997 the ES effect was "corrected"
for.
	d]	Other than mica of the citation below and aluminum, from
the 1977 work, there is no catalog of differing materials or even of other
possible effects.


	See notes...

 On Fri, 12 May 2000, Scott Little wrote:

> At 05:49 PM 5/12/2000 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >	1]	Why have only conductors been tried?
> 
> The first experiment, by Isrealachvelli (sp?) and Tabor, performed at
> Oxford, employed mica surfaces and the corrected for the effect of the
> dielectric constant of mica.

	Does anyone have a reference here, please?

> 
> >	2]	How many different kinds have been tried?
> >	3]	Have plates of two different materials been tried?
> >	4]	If two materials have NOT been tried, then why not?
> >	5]	Does anyone know EXACT experimental details of more than one
> >	6]	Casimir effect test?  If yes, then what are they?
> 
> Check out:  http://focus.aps.org/v2/st28.html

	This reference describes one experiment with aluminum and an
unknown other material.
> 
> 










From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 12:10:13 2000
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Subject:  NEW Cold Fusion Book=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=8b_EXCESS_HEAT?=
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:11:14 -0400
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New Cold Fusion Book  
NOW AVAILABLE
    from Infinite Energy Press, Exclusive Distributor

Landmark book assesses the methodologies of science during a great 
paradigm shift.

EXCESS HEAT: 
Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed
by Charles G. Beaudette (S.B. in Electrical Engineering, MIT, 1952)

Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke

³...almost certainly the biggest scandal in the history of science... 
Beaudette has done a remarkable job in untangling and documenting the 
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price of oil, I rashly predicted: ŒThe age of cheap power is over‹ the 
age of free power is still fifty years ahead.¹  Excess Heat strengthens 
my hope that this may not be too far from the truth, early in the new 
millennium.²

"...Mr. Beaudette has done a thorough job summing up the controversial 
history of this subject, and I do not see how any unbiased reader can now 
doubt that anomalous energy is being produced from some source - not 
necessarily fusion."


Introduction by David J. Nagel, Ph.D.
(Formerly Superintendent, Condensed Matter and Radiation Sciences 
Division, U.S. Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, D.C.)

³The terms Œpathological science¹ or Œvoodoo science¹ frequently follow 
mention of the subject. Excess Heat deftly makes the case, in fashion 
reminiscent of a legal brief, for serious attention to the subject. This 
book concludes that there is no basis now for dismissing cold fusion. 
Each of the major reasons offered for ignoring, or actively opposing, 
further research are shown to be flawed. The persistent lack of a 
theoretical explanation and problems with experimental reproducibility 
are major legitimate concerns, but they are not reasons to trash the 
topic.²


"As cold fusion scientists and technologists from around the world 
convene at the Eighth International Conference on Cold Fusion in Italy 
(May 21-26, 2000) a landmark book by MIT-trained electrical engineer, 
Charles G. Beaudette will reach them. Beaudette dubs his work, 'An 
investigative report prepared for the general reader to explain how the 
most extraordinary claim made in the basic sciences during the twentieth 
century was mistakenly dismissed through errors of scientific protocol.'  
Unlike rush jobs by poorly informed critics in the early 1990s, Excess 
Heat is copiously illustrated with scientific diagrams and meticulously 
referenced with mounting, peer-reviewed scientific papers and historical 
facts." ‹ Eugene Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine

Published by Oak Grove Press,  LLC, Bristol, Maine
ISBN 0-9678548-0-6 (Hardcover);  ISBN 0-9678548-1-4 (Paperback);  355 
pages


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Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

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	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
       staff infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 12:27:53 2000
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Subject: Iron... Scientist named Gray
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	Dear Vo.,

	I am trying to track a report a scientst named Gray... pre 1900
... "rubbed iron" and got a charge that attracted many materials.

	Thanks and please	.....	any leads?


			J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 12:49:04 2000
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Subject: RE: Who! Stop the car, Bob! ... Casismir 
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:28:55 -0700
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Another link for the curious, (includes the reference you are looking for):

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/casimir.html













From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 13:36:32 2000
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:30:57 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: The irreproducible electric light
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A description of incandescent light manufacturing two and half years after
it began:

. . . the factory was losing eight cents on each of the 200,000 lamps it
turned out annually.

The biggest problem in selling the lamps was that, although the company
advertised them as good for 600 hours, they quickly became clouded by
carbon deposits. At first the light was refracted into myriad colors, and
the lamp sparkled prettily. But, often within 20 to 40 hours, the lamps
took on the smoked look of kerosene chimneys, and soon they were useless.
In France, Batchelor completely "lost the art" of carbonizing the
filaments. After spending an enormous amount of money and nearly
bankrupting the company, he decided he would have to resort to flashing.
Edison's brother-in-law James Hipple, who set up a plant in Berlin, had the
same experience.

Upton was rescued only because Edison was at hand. It was Edison's opinion
that "The process is entirely dependent upon judgment [and] a most illusive
one. We have at times carried on the process concurrently with regular
observations as to the various atmospheric conditions of temperature,
moisture, pressure and direction and velocity of the wind." Nothing seemed
to have any relationship or effect. All depended on intuition. In late
July, 1882, when Upton was frantic after several weeks of turning out
horrendous lamps, Edison took time off from Pearl Street to set things
aright in the plant. His touch was truly magical. He left Upton shaking his
head:

"You were here Thursday. There was no change made in Thursday's lamps, yet
they were the best we have made for several weeks. . . ."

- R. Conot, "Thomas A. Edison, A Streak of Luck," (Da Capo, 1979), p. 201

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 13:44:29 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Statement to be circulated at ICCF-8
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Corrections:

>In recent months, cold fusion has been attacked in APS publications and in
>a book published by APS spokesman Robert Park. Because the information
>contained in these attacks are biased,  unscientific, and it contradicts
                            ^^^

is biased . . .


>material published by the APS dnd in the peer-reviewed scientific . . .
                               ^^^

and in . . .

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 14:06:11 2000
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:03:25 +0100
From: Joe Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Mills + Blacklight power.
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I've been out of touch of the list for the last four or five months
due to the work load here.  I'd really appreciate it if someone
could summarise where the state of play with Mills.  I heard rumours
of court cases and fraud.  Is this true?

Thanks,
Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 15:23:42 2000
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:21:50 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Vast Caspian Oil Field Found
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http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6723-2000May15.html


Vast Caspian Oil Field Found 
 
By David B. Ottaway
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 16, 2000; Page A01 

A consortium of Western oil companies has found a vast petroleum reserve in
the northern Caspian Sea off the coast of Kazakhstan that may well be the
largest oil discovery anywhere in the world in the past 20 years, according
to U.S. officials and industry sources. 


While efforts to map out the confines of the vast field have just begun
after nine months of drilling, initial estimates of its size range from 8
billion to more than 50 billion barrels of oil, the sources said.

. . .



The North Sea fields, shared mainly by Britain and Norway, are currently
estimated to hold around 17 billion barrels in proven reserves. The Kazakh
onshore giant at Tengiz holds somewhere between 6 billion and 9 billion
barrels in proven reserves. The world's largest oil field, at Ghawar in
Saudi Arabia, contains 70 billion to 85 billion barrels of proven reserves.
. . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 15:33:29 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Who! Stop the car, Bob! ... Casismir 
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:45:45 -0400
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John writes:
>
>
>	Dear Folks,
>
>	Since I began to ask about the Casimir Effet I find only a VERY
>few answers.
>	If anyone has more, please let me know.
>
>	a]	There have been only three tries at this.
>	b]	There is no catalog of possible artifact or even mention
>of artifact but that of electrostatic, to be abbreviated ES, for this
>discussion.   
>	c]	In an experiment in 1997 the ES effect was "corrected"
>for.
>	d]	Other than mica of the citation below and aluminum, from
>the 1977 work, there is no catalog of differing materials or even of other
>possible effects.

Hi John,

I've got a page of references that I'll mail to you privately.  If anyone
else is interested, let me know and I'll mail you one as well.  Like I said
in my private e-mail to you, there are a lot of references in the pop
science literature that give general overviews of the current research.
>From there you have to write directly to the prinicipal researchers and
generally, they are happy to supply you with more specific hard data.  There
has been some research done just recently (within the last year) at the U of
Washington, so it is not like it is any kind of "hidden or non-existent
science".  I think I have a section of books in my Amazon.com list as well
that I will mail you.  What I have found is that it is a good idea to use a
lot of different search engines when researching any subject.  They all look
for data in different ways, and compile different lists than each other.  I
have a list of about 30 engines that I use.  If you want that, you are
welcome to it as well.  Hope this helps.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 15:38:43 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Who! Stop the car, Bob! ... Casismir 
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:50:46 -0400
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I wrote:
I've got a page of references that I'll mail to you privately.  If anyone
else is interested, let me know and I'll mail you one as well.  Like I said
in my private e-mail to you, there are a lot of references in the pop
science literature that give general overviews of the current research.
>From there you have to write directly to the prinicipal researchers and
generally, they are happy to supply you with more specific hard data.  There
has been some research done just recently (within the last year) at the U of
Washington, so it is not like it is any kind of "hidden or non-existent
science".  I think I have a section of books in my Amazon.com list as well
that I will mail you.  What I have found is that it is a good idea to use a
lot of different search engines when researching any subject.  They all look
for data in different ways, and compile different lists than each other.  I
have a list of about 30 engines that I use.  If you want that, you are
welcome to it as well.  Hope this helps.

Knuke

PS  Many of the early researchers used what are referred to by machinists as
Jo Blocks or Johansen (sp) Blocks.  These are readily available, although
rather expensive, gauge blocks that are made of steel and used by
machinists.  These are precision ground to near optical flatness.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 15:54:50 2000
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Check out http://go.to/jlnlabs. --MJ

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The irreproducible electric light
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>A description of incandescent light manufacturing two and half years after
>it began:
>
>. . . the factory was losing eight cents on each of the 200,000 lamps it
>turned out annually.
>
>The biggest problem in selling the lamps was that, although the company
>advertised them as good for 600 hours, they quickly became clouded by
>carbon deposits. At first the light was refracted into myriad colors, and
>the lamp sparkled prettily. But, often within 20 to 40 hours, the lamps
>took on the smoked look of kerosene chimneys, and soon they were useless.
>In France, Batchelor completely "lost the art" of carbonizing the
>filaments. After spending an enormous amount of money and nearly
>bankrupting the company, he decided he would have to resort to flashing.
>Edison's brother-in-law James Hipple, who set up a plant in Berlin, had the
>same experience.
>
>Upton was rescued only because Edison was at hand. It was Edison's opinion
>that "The process is entirely dependent upon judgment [and] a most illusive
>one. We have at times carried on the process concurrently with regular
>observations as to the various atmospheric conditions of temperature,
>moisture, pressure and direction and velocity of the wind." Nothing seemed
>to have any relationship or effect. All depended on intuition. In late
>July, 1882, when Upton was frantic after several weeks of turning out
>horrendous lamps, Edison took time off from Pearl Street to set things
>aright in the plant. His touch was truly magical. He left Upton shaking his
>head:
>
>"You were here Thursday. There was no change made in Thursday's lamps, yet
>they were the best we have made for several weeks. . . ."
>
>- R. Conot, "Thomas A. Edison, A Streak of Luck," (Da Capo, 1979), p. 201

***{A highly suggestive account, Jed! Now if we could just persuade Mizuno
to take a stroll through Scott's lab! --MJ}***


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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Who! Stop the car, Bob! ... Casismir
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>I wrote:
>I've got a page of references that I'll mail to you privately.  If anyone
>else is interested, let me know and I'll mail you one as well.  Like I said
>in my private e-mail to you, there are a lot of references in the pop
>science literature that give general overviews of the current research.
>From there you have to write directly to the prinicipal researchers and
>generally, they are happy to supply you with more specific hard data.  There
>has been some research done just recently (within the last year) at the U of
>Washington, so it is not like it is any kind of "hidden or non-existent
>science".  I think I have a section of books in my Amazon.com list as well
>that I will mail you.  What I have found is that it is a good idea to use a
>lot of different search engines when researching any subject.  They all look
>for data in different ways, and compile different lists than each other.  I
>have a list of about 30 engines that I use.  If you want that, you are
>welcome to it as well.  Hope this helps.
>
>Knuke
>
>PS  Many of the early researchers used what are referred to by machinists as
>Jo Blocks or Johansen (sp) Blocks.  These are readily available, although
>rather expensive, gauge blocks that are made of steel and used by
>machinists.  These are precision ground to near optical flatness.

***{I am interested in your list of references. In particular, did you find
a reference to an experiment in which the surfaces literally "welded
themselves together," as you mentioned in an earlier post? --MJ}***

>
>Knuke
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 16:14:50 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Statement to circulated at ICCF-8
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:26:34 -0400
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Jed writes:
>Any comments? Revisions?
>
>- JR
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>NOTICE: In recent months, the American Physical Society has stepped up its
>attacks against cold fusion. I move that that members of this conference
>draft and sign a letter to APS President James Langer protesting this
>unfair treatment. Here is a draft statement by Scott Chubb:
>
>In recent months, cold fusion has been attacked in APS publications and in
>a book published by APS spokesman Robert Park. Because the information
>contained in these attacks are biased,  unscientific, and it contradicts
>material published by the APS dnd in the peer-reviewed scientific
                                                 ^^^
>literature, in the interest of  maintaining a balanced presentation of the
>facts, we request that a  formal statement be made by the APS apologizing
>for these distortions and disavowing Dr. Park's comments.
>
>- Jed Rothwell
>  Contributing Editor
>  Infinite Energy Magazine

It seems a bit too civil a reply compared to the stepped-up treatment that
CF has been getting lately.  My version would probably be over the top
though.  One fact that I think needs to be brought out to the public in a
big way is that the APS is going to profit a great deal from the current
nuclear waste storage schemes, the expanded efforts at building more nuclear
power plants and the proliferation of advanced weapons of mass destruction.
When you add the up the cost of these proposed plans, each will be an
estimated trillion dollars worldwide in the next decade.  All this under the
guise of providing "safe, environmentally friendly, too cheap to meter
electricity, and a sense of national security".  To pay for all this, a
larger number of the poor must suffer, and in many cases die.  The "useable"
will have to work harder for less.  The wealthy few will increase their
ownership of the world, and freedom for almost everyone will become nothing
but a manufactured and false dream.  Even the members of the APS will have
to realize that this is not the kind of world that we should be striving to
create for future generations.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 16:27:51 2000
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Jed quotes Conot,
 After spending an enormous amount of money and nearly
>bankrupting the company, he decided he would have to resort to flashing.

I've been thinking of doing this myself, lately.

>- R. Conot, "Thomas A. Edison, A Streak of Luck," (Da Capo, 1979), p. 201

Knuke - The Wild Streaker
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 16:50:18 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Who! Stop the car, Bob! ... Casismir
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:02:46 -0400
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Mitch writes:
>***{I am interested in your list of references. In particular, did you find
>a reference to an experiment in which the surfaces literally "welded
>themselves together," as you mentioned in an earlier post? --MJ}***

I looked through about a half a meg of stuff for it this morning, and came
up with a big zilch.  The only other person that I can think of right off
hand that may have sent it was Bill Page.  He is the only other university
professor that I remember being on spf at that time that was contributing on
a regular basis.  My system has been hacked, I've lost some stuff, and that
post was from around 94 or 95.  I even zoomed over to spf this morning to
have a look at what was being said, and would have commented as much but the
mail program on my browser is set up for another server, and I was up all
night as it was.

I do mean to apologize to Dieter if it is appropriate, for referring people
to him on this subject.  I hope he wasn't upset by my mistake.  Like I said,
I've referred several people to him over the years, and it appears that you
are the first to actually ask him about it.  I was in a small, private
discussion group with him not long ago, and meant to ask him myself if he
had published anything about it, but didn't.  Anyway, I hope he knows that
there was no harm intended.  I'll keep looking for the specific post, but
the next few days are going to be quite busy for me, so it may take some
time.  Will keep you updated.  I will e-mail the Casimir refs privately.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 17:47:25 2000
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May 16, 2000

Vortex,

The Ig Nobel Committee's selection of the "Top Twenty Technological Screws of
the 20th Century" as written by Marc Abramson, editor of 'Annals of Improbable
Research' and published by APS in their APS News for May, 2000 is a great
media  opportunity to be seized upon and utilized for the cause of cold fusion
itself.
Naming of twenty 'screwups' is the largest that has been announced in the years
that the Ig Nobel prizes has been announced. The past ceremonies took place at
Harvard's Sanders Theater with over 1200 spectators for '99 with Nobel
Laureates taking part in the awards. The ceremonies had been broadcast live on
the Internet, and recorded for later broadcast on NPR's Talk of the Nation as
well being covered by C-SPAN.
If the award ceremony for those named does take place as described in the
previous years' ceremonies, it is a great chance to turn the tables on them.
The awardees should be given time to respond in kind. All of this has to be
taken in the spirit of "in fun and games' but with a strong sinew and bite of
truth in cold fusion to make the audience think as they laugh. Most likely,
awardees will be mostly made up of fake recipients for those events of long
ago. But CF is too recent to let it pass like that.
If not Fleischmann and/or Pons, then certainly "thick skin" Mallove can respond
to the award in return, flinging back the ridicule in kind and perhaps giving
The Ig Nobel Committee and supporters like the APS & Harvard 'The Noble Piece
Prize', a mounted skull model with a clearly a much smaller brain capacity ---
or some such trophy coming from the cold fusion community.

A letter to APS prez is fine. I do not think it would deters those entrenched.
And the Ig Nobel prize ceremony probably will take place. Let's use it as an
opportunity. Time to kick back some butts.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 18:10:00 2000
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:59:21 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: The irreproducible electric light
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> After spending an enormous amount of money and nearly
>>bankrupting the company, he decided he would have to resort to flashing.
>
>I've been thinking of doing this myself, lately.

Whatever works, dude.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 16 18:10:06 2000
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:01:35 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Statement to circulated at ICCF-8
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>It seems a bit too civil a reply compared to the stepped-up treatment that
>CF has been getting lately.  My version would probably be over the top
>though.

Mine too, but I was hoping to come up with something that mild-mannered
people like Ed Storms and Mel Miles would sign off on. Scott Chubb, who is
an APS member, came up with that, as noted.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 13:00:33 2000
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:54:35 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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On May 1 the U.S. government stopped degrading GPS signals for non-military
users. This action was originally planned for the 2006, but it was moved up
after consulting with the Pentagon. See:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/05/02/civil.gps.idg/index.html

This makes existing GPS receivers up to ten times more accurate.

When the GPS was started, few realized how valuable it would be to the
civilian economy. It is a remarkable development, and a good example of how
a small, pure high-tech gadget can revolutionize our way of living.

The GPS is yet another triumph of government-initiated, government-built
high technology. Many critics, both liberal and conservative, say the
government has contributed little to technology. I think that's crazy. As I
have said here before, the U.S. and British governments have played a
leading role in most major developments since 1650. In many cases, such as
sewers, steamships, airplanes, airports, computers and the Internet, the
government actually built and paid for the all-important prototype and
first-generation devices. In other cases, like vaccination, canals,
railroads, ship-to-ship radio, electrification and pollution control the
government encouraged industry, subsidized it, or mandated the use of the
technology. You might argue that the government wasted a lot of money and
often botched the job. Things might have come out better in a lassez faire
economy where the government played no role. Perhaps if we could replay
history in a parallel universe things would come out better if Lincoln had
not pushed through the transcontinental railroad, and Al Gore had not
promoted the Internet, and helped push through legislation financing for it.

A lot of government investment has been in the dull or disagreeable stuff
like sewers. You do not think about about sewers or appreciate them until
you walk down a street in city like Okayama, Japan, where there are none.
The stink is so awful on a hot summer afternoon, it would make an average
American throw up. People who do not believe in zoning laws, city planning
or massive investment in infrastructure should spend a summer in Okayama.

Gore was ridiculed for saying he "invented" the Internet. I don't see
anything funny about it. He "invented" it in the same sense that Lincoln
"built" the railroad, and Eisenhower "built" the highways. Large industrial
projects need leadership, money, legislation. You cannot build railroads,
highways or launch rockets without insurance, rules about liability, legal
agreements between corporations, coordination with local and national
government. (The railroads also engendered the most spectacular bribes,
land grabs and corruption in U.S. history, arguable because they were
closely tied to government.) Americans sometimes think of themselves as
"rugged individualists," but what they have excelled in are mass projects
requiring hoards of coordinated, obedient, disciplined workers -- the
modern version of building the Pyramids, or the Great Wall of China. We
cater to mass-markets. We do mass-production, mass-media, mass-education.
We fight wars on a scale unthinkable in earlier ages. We do big projects
that literally move mountains and transform the face of a continent. We
make things like the telephone network and Windows 98, which call for
millions of man-years of coordinated effort.

Cold fusion may be perfected on a small scale by scattered individuals, but
it will not be implemented on a national scale until government and
industry invest huge sums of money, and makes large changes to the tax
system, transportation, infrastructure, health and safety rules, and much
else. The government may resist these changes, but if the public become
convinced that cold fusion is valuable, it will overrule the vested
interests and force quick action. This has been the pattern with things
like automobile pollution, which has been reduced by a factor of 20 since
1960.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 15:52:10 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 03:54:35PM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Gore was ridiculed for saying he "invented" the Internet. I don't see
> anything funny about it. He "invented" it in the same sense that Lincoln
> "built" the railroad, and Eisenhower "built" the highways.
>

Sorry, but I've got to chip in here and say that that's very
"America" centric.  I know that most American's don't think about
the rest of the world very often, but I'd even go as far as to say
that us Brit's invented it ;)... and, Who's Al Gore?  ;)

Yours, pulling your leg,
Joe

p.s. 'Tis good news about the GPS restrictions being dropped.  I
hears about it 17 years ago, where 1 day = an internet year. :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 16:15:55 2000
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:12:25 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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At 3:54 PM -0400 5/17/00, Jed Rothwell wrote:

  In many cases, such as
  sewers, steamships, airplanes, airports, computers and the Internet, the
  government actually built and paid for the all-important prototype and
  first-generation devices. In other cases, like vaccination, canals,
  railroads, ship-to-ship radio, electrification and pollution control [...]

Cell phones cell phones cell phones!

Biggest damn thing there ever was. Reduces crime, saves lives, makes 
the active person's busy day work out efficiently. I can't believe 
how much time I used to spend thrashing around, missing people on the 
road with changing appointments, contingencies, etc. I think such 
efficiencies are synergistic, multiplying themselves through society 
rather than just adding up individually. My girlfriend already used 
her phone to save at least one life at an accident scene in a remote 
location, and maybe another in another incident.

Buy Nokia, Qualcom, etc. Live well.  :)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 16:27:59 2000
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:26:30 +0100
From: Joe Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: Quantum noise, one time pad, and hysteresis
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On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 12:31:25PM -0700, hank scudder wrote:
> Horace
> 	Back in the dark ages, circa 1955, The Rand Corporation published
> a book of One Million Random Digits. It was created by A/D'ing a noise
> generator, converting to decimal, and printing, I believe. It might make a
> good starting point for your coding.
> 

I always thought that running a hoover over a 50 foot bus cable plugged into
the back of a computer might do the trick! :)

Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 16:28:09 2000
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:21:24 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>  first-generation devices. In other cases, like vaccination, canals,
>  railroads, ship-to-ship radio, electrification and pollution control [...]
>
>Cell phones cell phones cell phones!
>
>Biggest damn thing there ever was. Reduces crime, saves lives, makes 
>the active person's busy day work out efficiently. . . .

That's a good counter-example. The government had nothing to do with the
development as far as I recall, and little to do with implementation other
than regulating broadcast frequencies.

I did not mean to imply that the gov't had a hand in EVERYTHING. Just most
of the big-iron, large scale developments that I have studied. The gov't is
seldom creative. It usually comes in after the breakthrough discovery has
been made and the industry launched by private efforts. For example, Morse
invented the telegraph and then Congress paid for the first line, from
Baltimore to Washington. Congress did not subsidize telegraphs much after
that because the industry took off like a rocket soon after that. (But
there was an interesting hiatus of several weeks or months during which
virtually no one used the line, and Congress got tired of paying for it,
apparently because it did not occur to people to use it -- even those who
depended on news from Baltimore.)

Here is an interesting thing about cell phones, for which you *can* thank
the government. Even phones with no account (lapsed service) can now be
used to dial 911 emergency. If you have an old phone lying around with
expired service, you can still use it in emergencies. In many cities,
social service agencies and the phone companies are handing out lapsed and
obsolete phones to poor people and elderly people for emergency use.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 16:43:08 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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Joe Karthauser wrote:

>Sorry, but I've got to chip in here and say that that's very
>"America" centric.  I know that most American's don't think about
>the rest of the world very often, but I'd even go as far as to say
>that us Brit's invented it ;)... and, Who's Al Gore?  ;)

No, as far as I know, in the early stages it was developed by the U.S.
Department of Defense, ARPA, starting in 1963, by Licklider. Britains
National Physics Lab. was one of the first to hook into the network, but
the Pentagon paid for it. That's according to M. Campbell-Kelly, U.
Warwick, co-author of "Computer, A History of the Information Machine,"
(Basic Books, 1996). By the time Gore got involved scientists and
programmers from many countries were contributing, of course. Some guy at
CERN (a Brit, I think), invented the World Wide Web interface.

This book also points out that the now-universal Mac / Windows interface
originated in research at the University of Utah and SRI, names familiar to
people in the CF biz. The research was extended by Xerox PARC. There things
stood until Jobs and Gates heard about it, and the rest is history.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 18:22:08 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:56:25 EDT
Subject: Re: Mills + Blacklight power.
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In a message dated 05/16/2000 2:06:13 PM, joe tao.org.uk writes:

<<I heard rumours of court cases and fraud.  Is this true?>>

No, but it's interesting how these rumors grow.

Philip W. Anderson did say that he thought Mills' work was a fraud, and 
Robert L. Park of the American Physical Society has used the word "scam," so 
Mills' lawyer finally sent them a letter telling them to stop using 
actionable words like that.  As far as I know, they have complied, and Mills 
hasn't sued for libel.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 18:54:14 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CETI
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:50 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Have CETI moved their web page, or have they completely gone out of
business?
(I have been using http://biz.onramp.net/ceti/ ).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 17 21:17:49 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:23:43 -0400
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Jed writes:
>Here is an interesting thing about cell phones, for which you *can* thank
>the government. Even phones with no account (lapsed service) can now be
>used to dial 911 emergency. If you have an old phone lying around with
>expired service, you can still use it in emergencies. In many cities,
>social service agencies and the phone companies are handing out lapsed and
>obsolete phones to poor people and elderly people for emergency use.
>
>- Jed

I've not heard of this, but that's a pretty good idea.  Do you have any more
information on where this is available or who organized it?

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 02:11:06 2000
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Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:10:59 +0100
From: Joe Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mills + Blacklight power.
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On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 08:56:25PM -0400, Tstolper aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 05/16/2000 2:06:13 PM, joe tao.org.uk writes:
> 
> <<I heard rumours of court cases and fraud.  Is this true?>>
> 
> No, but it's interesting how these rumors grow.
> 
> Philip W. Anderson did say that he thought Mills' work was a fraud, and 
> Robert L. Park of the American Physical Society has used the word "scam," so 
> Mills' lawyer finally sent them a letter telling them to stop using 
> actionable words like that.  As far as I know, they have complied, and Mills 
> hasn't sued for libel.

I've got some comment from a friend of mine about Mill's works, from
a mathematical perspective.  I'd be happy to share it with anyone who's
interested in the theory behind the hydrino.

Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 03:11:20 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Anomalous gravitic effects
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Perhaps some vorts can help me with my bad memory.  I recall a lot of
dialog here about the anomalous gravity-like effect published by John
Anderson.  One statement in relation to that is:  "Radio metric data from
the Pioneer 10/11, Galileo, and Ulysses spacecraft indicate and apparent
anomalous, constant, acceleration acting on the spacecraft with a magnitude
~8.5E-8 cm/s^2, directed towards the Sun." from a paper by John D. Anderson
et al that is on the lanl server under the category gr-qc, number 9808081.

Here is where my memory fails me.  I feel sure that much of the
conversation here on vortex was in regard to heat and RF radiation from the
antenna structures being aimed in the general direction of earth being the
reason for the anomalous acceleration.  However, if that were the case, the
direction of the anomalous acceleration would be AWAY from the sun, not
TOWARDS the sun.  Is there a misprint above, or does the anomalous
acceleration observed actually slow the departure from the solar system?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 05:48:45 2000
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> Perhaps some vorts can help me with my bad memory.  I recall a lot of
> dialog here about the anomalous gravity-like effect published by John
> Anderson.  One statement in relation to that is:  "Radio metric data from
> the Pioneer 10/11, Galileo, and Ulysses spacecraft indicate and apparent
> anomalous, constant, acceleration acting on the spacecraft with a magnitude
> ~8.5E-8 cm/s^2, directed towards the Sun." from a paper by John D. Anderson
> et al that is on the lanl server under the category gr-qc, number 9808081.
> 
> Here is where my memory fails me.  I feel sure that much of the
> conversation here on vortex was in regard to heat and RF radiation from the
> antenna structures being aimed in the general direction of earth being the
> reason for the anomalous acceleration.  However, if that were the case, the
> direction of the anomalous acceleration would be AWAY from the sun, not
> TOWARDS the sun.  Is there a misprint above, or does the anomalous
> acceleration observed actually slow the departure from the solar system?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Verification of the LANL analysis at:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~carlkop/gravnew.html

indicates there is no misprint.  Quoting:

The Aerospace Corporation
2350 E. El Segundo Blvd.
El Segundo, CA 90245-4691
Mail: P.O. Box 92957
Los Angeles, CA 90009-2957

October 26, 1998

Aerospace Analysis Helps Confirm Unexplained "Pull" on Spacecraft

The Aerospace Corporation has helped confirm a tiny and
unexplained acceleration of NASA spacecraft toward the sun and
ruled out a number of possible causes. The principal investigator
at Aerospace also has explained what the company believes to be
the most likely cause.

<end quote>

There's more data at the referenced site.

Terry

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>Hi,
>
>Have CETI moved their web page, or have they completely gone out of
>business?
>(I have been using http://biz.onramp.net/ceti/ ).
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>


Don't know the latest on them -- may find out at ICCF8.. They are sitting 
on a pile of patents -- enviable position! But their ability to get 
excess heat from new attempts at bead-making failed. Also, they spread 
themselves too thin with the various directions they took.  It's a shame. 
 Many opportunities were missed.

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 05:59:56 2000
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Message-ID: <004101bfc0c8$a75aef50$0a04aec7 craig>
From: "Craig Haynie" <cchaynie ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000517155435.0079d500 pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 07:57:37 -0500
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> On May 1 the U.S. government stopped degrading GPS signals for
non-military
> users. This action was originally planned for the 2006, but it was moved
up
> after consulting with the Pentagon. See:

Incredible! I just checked it out. I go hiking a lot and the GPS, while
EXCELLENT for positioning, didn't leave a very good hiking trail due to the
wild positioning errors that were in the system. The apparent hiking path
would vary by hundreds of feet at times, with wild jumps, causing the
odometer to seriously overstate the distance traveled, and to make it very
difficult to follow a trail BACK, unless there was a clear path. Indeed, at
times it was impossible to know, for sure, which direction you were walking
in because the errors would override your walking speed.

NOW, however, the GPS works just like I had always hoped it would. The
position rarely moves, and the trail created seems to work flawlessly. The
altitude is even working!

I'm sure I sound like a techno-geek, but hey, I love it.

Craig Haynie (Houston)


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>I've not heard of this, but that's a pretty good idea.  Do you have any more
>information on where this is available or who organized it?

The FCC "organized" it, and it is available anywhere in the U.S. See:

http://search1.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+site+102176+
0+wAAA+911%7Ecell%7Ephone

New York Times

March 16, 2000


Old Cell Phones Can Still Call 911

By ROY FURCHGOTT

Securealert has been marketing its Magnavox Mobile911 emergency-only cell
phone with a tantalizing proposition: It will call 911 from just about
anywhere in the United States, and there is no charge for the service.

But many people may already have such a phone without knowing it. Any old,
decommissioned cell phone can be used to make 911 calls, as long as the
battery is good. 

The Federal Communications Commission requires all cell phone service
providers, like Sprint, AT&T and Bell Atlantic, to accept 911 calls from
any wireless phone -- even one that no longer has a phone number or service
contract. . . .



Here in Georgia, rural postmen in some areas have all been equipped with
911-only cell phones.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 07:11:31 2000
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Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:00:02 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Horace,

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> 
> Here is where my memory fails me.  I feel sure that much of the
> conversation here on vortex was in regard to heat and RF radiation from the
> antenna structures being aimed in the general direction of earth being the
> reason for the anomalous acceleration.  However, if that were the case, the
> direction of the anomalous acceleration would be AWAY from the sun, not
> TOWARDS the sun.  Is there a misprint above, or does the anomalous
> acceleration observed actually slow the departure from the solar system?
> 

Acceleation is toward to Sun. Yes, it slow the departure from the solar system.

Papers that I collected form LANL archives are:

physics/0005017
On the Indication from Pioneer 10/11 Data of an Apparent Anomalous, Weak, Long-Range Acceleration
Authors: Y. G. Yi
Comments: 2 pages and no figure in LaTeX. Physical comment on gr-qc/9808081 (gr-qc/9903024), following systematic comments gr-qc/9809070 (gr-qc/9906112) and gr-qc/9810015 (gr-qc/9906113)


gr-qc/9910105
Long-range acceleration induced by a scalar field external to gravity and the indication from Pioneer 10/11, Galileo and Ulysses Data

gr-qc/9910075
From: Wladimir Belayev <vladter ctinet.ru>
Cosmological model in 5D: Stationarity, yes or no


physics/9910027
Authors: Roger Ellman (The-Origin Foundation, Inc)
An Open Letter to NASA Scientists Concerning "The Apparent Anomalous, Weak, Long-Range Acceleration of [the spacecraft] Pioneer 10 and 11"


astro-ph/9907363
Authors: V Guruprasad (IBM TJWRC
The correct analysis and explanation of the Pioneer-Galileo anomalies

gr-qc/9906113
From: Michael Martin Nieto <mmn mmn.lanl.gov>
Anderson et al. Reply (to the Comment by Murphy on Pioneer 10/11)
Authors: John D. Anderson, Philip A. Laing, Eunice L. Lau, Anthony S. Liu, Michael Martin Nieto, Slava G. Turyshev
We conclude that Murphy's proposal (radiation of the power of the main-bus electrical systems from the rear of the craft) can not explain the anomalous Pioneer acceleration


gr-qc/9906112
From: Michael Martin Nieto <mmn mmn.lanl.gov>
Anderson et al. Reply (to the Comment by Katz on Pioneer 10/11)
Authors: John D. Anderson, Philip A. Laing, Eunice L. Lau, Anthony S. Liu, Michael Martin Nieto, Slava G. Turyshev
We conclude that Katz's proposal (anisotropic heat reflection off of the back of the spacecraft high-gain antennae, the heat coming from the RTGs) does not provide enough power and so can not explain the Pioneer anomaly. 

physics/9906031
From: Roger Ellman <rogerellman the-origin.org>
Exponential Decay of the Overall Universe is the Cause of "The Apparent Anomalous, Weak, Long-Range Acceleration of [the spacecraft] Pioneer 10 and 11"
Authors: Roger Ellman (The-Origin Foundation, Inc)
Comments: 15 pages, refers to gr-qc/9808081, which also appears in APS October 5, 1998 Physical Review Letters, Volume 81, Number 14, and to gr-qc/9903024.

gr-qc/9903024
From: Slava G. Turyshev <turyshev jpl.nasa.gov>
The Apparent Anomalous, Weak, Long-Range Acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11
Authors: Slava G. Turyshev, John D. Anderson, Philip A. Laing, Eunice L. Lau, Anthony S. Liu, Michael Martin Nieto

gr-qc/9810015
A Prosaic Explanation for the Anomalous Accelerations Seen in Distant Spacecraft
Authors: Edward M. Murphy (The Johns Hopkins University, Dept. of Physics and Astronomy

gr-qc/9809070
Comment on ``Indication, from Pioneer 10/11, Galileo, and Ulysses Data, of an Apparent Anomalous, Weak, Long-Range Acceleration''
Authors: J. I. Katz (Department of Physics and McDonnell Center for the Space Sciences, Washington U., St. Louis, MO)

gr-qc/9808081
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:10:39 GMT   (45kb)
Indication, from Pioneer 10/11, Galileo, and Ulysses Data, of an Apparent Anomalous, Weak, Long-Range Accelerattion
Authors: John D. Anderson, Philip A. Laing, Eunice L. Lau, Anthony S. Liu, Michael Martin Nieto, Slava G. Turyshev

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 07:23:23 2000
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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Jed,

> Gore was ridiculed for saying he "invented" the Internet. I don't see
> anything funny about it. He "invented" it in the same sense that Lincoln
> "built" the railroad, and Eisenhower "built" the highways.

Come on....

His only involvement in the internet is as an excuse to raise taxes.

The so called reasoning was to put the internet in the classroom.  But only 
a portion of the money even goes to schools, most goes to other 
unpublicised Gore backed projects.

Why did the public fall for it, simple, if you say "for the children" over 
and over they will fall for anything.

Now that this tax is in place will it cease when all the schools have the 
internet?  Of course not, we are still paying a 3% federal tax on 
telecommunications which was put in place to pay for the Spanish American 
War.  I think even Jed would admit that the war is over, but they keep 
collecting the tax.  In fact Gore is even trying to get his new tax 
increased.

Was Gore's excuse even valid, NO.  Most schools already had an internet 
connection, most states already had programs to put it into the rest of 
them.  Are they going to be reimbursed for already having done the work, 
you've got to be kidding.  It was never about "for the children", taxes are 
always about taking more money, end of story.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
Briggs XLNsystems.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 08:27:29 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
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Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:

>> Gore was ridiculed for saying he "invented" the Internet. I don't see
>> anything funny about it. He "invented" it in the same sense that Lincoln
>> "built" the railroad, and Eisenhower "built" the highways.
>
>Come on....
>
>His only involvement in the internet is as an excuse to raise taxes.
>
>The so called reasoning was to put the internet in the classroom.

That is incorrect. That may describe his recent activity, but he was
involved in the '80s, a fact which is well known to people studying the
history of the internet (like me), and the people who actually did the work
(the so-called "pioneers") who generally hold him in high regard.
Obviously, Gore made no technical contributions, but he did help set up the
legal and funding structures, and he should be given credit for that. My
point is, someone had to do it. You cannot build large-scale technology
without changing laws, financing, government and industry policy and other
political and social institutions.

I do not particularly like Gore, but I would not deny his contributions.
You might argue he did a bad job, and someone else might have promoted the
Internet better or faster. You might argue the government should have left
everything up to private industry (which of course did make vital
contributions). But that is not how things happened, and you cannot rewrite
history. That would be like saying that Jay Gould and the other robber
barrons did not create the railroad and telegraph networks of the 19th
century. You do not endorse Gould by saying he played a leading role. He
was even less lovable than Al Gore. He bragged that he was above the law.
He was notorious for bribes, financial manipulation, stock fraud, and for
causing a major Wall Street panic in 1872. Compared to Gould, our
generation of manipulators, Wall Street chiselers and Ruthless Captains of
Industry are a bunch of wusses. Pussycats!

Attached is a quote from the Internet Pioneer Memories page. Other sources
agree with this.

- Jed


http://www.internet-history.org/memories/0055.html

QUOTE:

Bob Bright (getfiddle home.com) asks: 

"Is Al Gore the Father of the Internet?
Is he taking credit for a little or a lot too much of the Internet?"

Al Gore has been one of my heroes for the last decade. I became 
aware of him around 1990 when he started being quoted a lot by the
engineering types working on internetworking issues: He was the 
first legislator who actually appreciated what the Internet was all
about, and he helped guide the 'net through a very tricky transition.

When the 'net got started in the 1970's, every computer scientist who
heard about it was jazzed, but only a very select clique could get
to touch it: The hardware for the internet was these special
computers called IMPs (I think that was short for Intelligent
Message Processors) built by Honeywell, and outfitted with software
and some minor hardware modifications by Bolt Beranek and Newman,
and engineering company in Cambridge, Massachussetts. In order to
get one of those, you had to be a research institution with contract
funded research for the Advanced Research Projects Agency of the
US Department of Defense. I think the rental for an IMP was something
like $100,000 per year, which had to be paid out of the overhead on
the research contracts, so small colleges need not apply!

Around 1980-82, the ARPAnet had grown to include major military
posts, defense contracting companies and most universities that
had any defense research contracts at all. It was now carrying
several different classes of traffic:
- administrative traffic for the military
- administrative traffic between the military and its contractors
- and acting as a testbed for research experiments in protocol
development.
During this period, TCP was developed, and the network switched from
the original NCP protocol to TCP/IP. Shortly after that, the network
had grown so large that it had run out of numbers for the IMPs
(the hardware allowed 8 bits for the IMP number) and it was split
into two separate networks connected by some routers called
"mail bridges":
- network number 10 - ARPAnet
- network number 26 - MILnet


This split also helped calm the fears of some military people who
were worried about sharing a network with potentially subversive
students. This fear is why the connection between the networks
was called "mail bridges" implying that only the relatively safe
e-mail could get across. Despite the name, however, those were
really full-fledged routers, providing a completely seamless 
connection.


With IP installed, and the newly invented ethernet allowing for
affordable campus networks, the major universities started attaching
campus networks to the ARPAnet backbone, using VAX-11/780 mini-
computers with the network-aware version of UNIX that ARPA had
paid University of California at Berkeley to develop.


Many of the smaller universities wanted to participate, but did
not have any military reaserch contracts to qualify them, so they
banded together to build a compatible network running TCP/IP over
X.25 (Telenet, Tymnet). This was known as CS-NET (for Computer
Science network).


By 1989, the university-to-university traffic had dwarfed the
military traffic, and the DoD wanted to divest itself of the
overheads of running the network, so they asked the National
Science Foundation to take over. Around this time, the NSF had
started a program to build - I think it was 9 - national 
supercomputer centers, and needed to link them with the potential
users at universities. They rented a bunch of 56 kbps lines -
of the same kind that ARPAnet ran on - and installed a bunch of
routers built out of inexpensive PDP-11/23 minicomputers, using
a software package called FUZZBALL, developed by professor Dave
Mills of University of Delaware. This created a second backbone,
parallel to the DoD-sponsored ARPA backbone. Since NSFnet had
no military funding, there was no longer a requirement for
military contracts to be connected, but since it was paid for
by tax dolllars earmarked for reasearch in the national interest,
it was not available to businesses, except in support of govern-
ment paid research.


It was at this point that Senator Gore stepped in, and basically
brokered a deal where NSF stopped paying for the network, and
instead gave the universities money to buy network services.
This made it possible to start network companies to compete with
NSFnet and its regional affiliates. Several of the NSF-funded
affiliates re-invented tehmselves overnight into for-profit
ventures. NYSERnet became PSI, for example.


Without this visionary plan, there would not have been a commercial
Internet. Because I had seen how elegantly Senator Gore pulled off
this very good thing, I was happy to see him run for president,
and even happier to see him join forces with Bill Clinton. I still
think Al Gore is the better man.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 08:40:38 2000
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Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:34:54 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: CETI
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At 08:53 AM 5/18/2000 -0400, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>Have CETI moved their web page, or have they completely gone out of
>>business?
>>(I have been using http://biz.onramp.net/ceti/ ).
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>
>Don't know the latest on them -- may find out at ICCF8.. They are sitting 
>on a pile of patents -- enviable position! But their ability to get 
>excess heat from new attempts at bead-making failed. Also, they spread 
>themselves too thin with the various directions they took.  It's a shame. 
> Many opportunities were missed.
>
>Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
>Infinite Energy Magazine &
>New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
>Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
>P.O. Box 2816
>Concord, NH 03302-2816
>
>editor infinite-energy.com
>www.infinite-energy.com
>
>603-228-4516  Phone
>603-224-5975  Fax



  I visited them in January 2000, and had good
technical discussions with them regarding their
projects.  They are pursuing many interesting
opportunities. Their senior inventor looks good,
and is effervescent about his research.

   Mitchell Swartz





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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: GPS liberated
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:26:43 -0400
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Craig writes:
>NOW, however, the GPS works just like I had always hoped it would. The
>position rarely moves, and the trail created seems to work flawlessly. The
>altitude is even working!
>
>I'm sure I sound like a techno-geek, but hey, I love it.
>
>Craig Haynie (Houston)

It will be a huge improvement for boats as well, compared to LORAN.
Unfettered GPS is much more accurate, and that is a real life saver in
shallow waters.  River boat skippers have to know EXACTLY where their boat
can run, anchor, etc. or they run aground, foul their cooling pumps and burn
up their engines.  It happened all the time in AK and in the Gulf of Mexico
where most boats spent more time in the rivers than out at sea.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Anomalous gravitic effects
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Many thanks to Terry Blanton and Hamdi Ucar for their information on the
gravity anomaly.  It is nice to know such helpful and resourceful vorts
still lurk  here.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 17:27:03 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:23:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Mills + Blacklight power.
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AMPLIFICATION:

When the Patent Office finally granted Mills & BLP a patent on his energy 
cells in February of this year, Robert Park criticized the decision.

Here's what Erik Baard reported in his VILLAGE VOICE article of April 26, 
2000:

<<Within days, the patent office pulled back a related chemistry patent for 
further review just before issuance, citing comments by Park and others—none 
of whom has tested Mills's devices or materials—in mainstream press reports 
that Mills must be either wildly mistaken or a fraud. That patent 
application, number 09/009,294, was so near issuance that it slipped out in 
the PTO's weekly Gazette of allowances as Patent No. 6,030,601. 
.....

Mills's lawyers won an agreement from the patent office not to act on the 
chemistry application until June while the U.S. District Court examines the 
case. >>

This sounds to me like a patent case and not a libel suit.

Tom Stolper

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I saw a report similar about the space probes not being where they are 
supposed to be.

They say they can't figure it, but there must be a secondary tug coming from 
the Sun.

In Whirlpower Theory it is stated the Sun has a secondary force of gravity 
acting on the planets and drags them along due to the lever action of wobble 
of the Sun.  This action happens due to the fluid nature of space, that the 
fundamental particle, the quanta is the subatomic fluid.  Science has had it 
all backwards.  The recent announcement of proof of flat space also fits 
into this.  At the moment it appears Whirlpower Theory is the only flat 
space based theory with actual test proposals that exists and is finally 
being recognized.

Due to the recent rise in support for Whirlpower Theory a NASA scientist has 
just announced plans to test the vacuum pipe light test as described in THE 
ROSE.  A big step for Whirlpower Theory.  This can be seen at 
<Antigravity egroups.com>

The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is being prepared.  The energy 
revolution given freely to all just might be reaching critical mass very 
shortly.

And they said it was impossible.  HA!

David Dennard
Phoenix Rising
http://www.whirlpower.cc

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 18 19:54:51 2000
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Hi Steve,

Here is your vote added to the Declaration, for posterity.  :)

Any more votes?  Bring them on.  Maybe Jack?  Terry?  ???

More are coming in!

Time has come today!

David
"in sackcloth and ashes"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Press Release            Whirlpower Declaration

Apr 18 2000               To Build A Whirlpool

To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern:

>From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group:

This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool
built and tested by science.  After considerable research it has been shown 
that a whirlpool has never been built by man before.  It is our opinion that 
one should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general 
public.

The research on this goes back several years on the internet and
many, many, years by myself and several people on this list.  I began by 
trying to find the whirlpools in the world after being inspired by a dream.  
This search has led to this theory and call for a whirlpool to be built in 
an unbiased, multiple, Scientific Method, theorists propose, scientists 
dispose, test.  This information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower 
Declaration stating the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way 
that it will generate electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean water 
in the process!

Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving
the pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by 
the pollution and danger of current energy sources.  This is not a request 
for cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however 
those interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help support 
our efforts.

Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature.
This pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar 
system, the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic.  It 
is seen in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence.

Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the
world we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few 
years ago.  Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated, "scientists are 
going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" in the ABC News 
Transcript posted at my website.  Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest of 
this new understanding and predicted many of the discoveries long before 
they were announced.  Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter 
(Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall and Perlmutter), and the slowing 
down of the speed of light (Hau), are all predicted by the relative density 
displacement basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the 
fluid nature of
space.  And the very latest announcement of the proof of flat space.

Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has
weathered the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are finally 
starting to see the possibility.

All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a
scientific manner.  We are asking any and all who may be interested
to try it.  Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have 
built several small models that show the action I have described, and we 
have other tests of principle models by people in our group.  These appear 
to be the first whirlpools ever built by man.  We are working on building 
our next whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on this has 
been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort and 
available for all to use.  Please help us if you can.

All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are
some of the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science.  We 
welcome any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being.

Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments.

Thank you for your consideration,

David G. Dennard
The Phoenix
655 Doyle LN
Dixon Ca USA 95620

http://www.whirlpower.cc
http://egroups.com/group/whirlpower

Contact Phone  707-678-0402

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study
of Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of
interest by many mainstream scientists.  I guess it's just a bit too
revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some.  You don't have to have a string 
of qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with a 
huge scientific breakthrough.  The guy who thought up the theory of plate 
tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right. So don't 
be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your 
vision, David, you may well have the last laugh.

I hope you get the scientific support you deserve

Bill Bimson
Senior Experimental Officer
Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre
Univerity of Liverpool
L69 3BX
England

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago
when I first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger.  I have an 
active and avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up 
the challenge to further my understanding in this most  intriguing of ideas.

I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end
I see lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the 
Whirlpower Theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based 
machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth, 
extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations.

Neil Simmonds
nsimmonds yahoo.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am
studying vortex motion.  This could also apply to vortices driven by 
gravity.  I have looked at your site.  You have my full support.

Richard Cheney
RichardCHENEY leggot.ac.uk

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in
large scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test
Whirlpower soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary 
details. I will also try to help any other person that tries to do the same. 
And as an ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness 
person or what ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with 
the Whirlpower
ideas!

Curt Hallberg
Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html
http://www.newphys.se
qrt.o.tina swipnet.se

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As theories get more complex, the more the parameters of what will be
significant are determined by existing theory...

...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data
and an alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a 
new paradigm is acknowledged.

Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are
necessary for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also helps 
to build an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in 
the old theory.

An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same
(this is after all what this site and many others try to do)

Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can
afford to throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a 
whirlpool effect.

Andre
aw49 pixie.co.za

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard
writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics 
bashing.  He is truely on to something most of those best minds could only 
say poo or huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out.

What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE!
I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN 
THIS!!
I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want
to admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE!

...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the
upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable 
once the process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle 
the vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different 
ways (ha.haa) -

Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet
in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple 
Whirlpower!, but I can feel it works  /  Big time  / the Bigger the better!!

steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall
ekwall2 diac.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David
Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David,
from time to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought,
questioning the amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the 
vortex.  But then my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David 
really is on to something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system 
has potential. It surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as 
impossible.  Just think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on 
their first flying machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David, 
but now airplanesare a major means of transportation!

My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work,
but my intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a physicist, 
I do not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior 
to be able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal 
etc.

David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other
people say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams.

Edward Maesen
http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand 
how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will 
stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine, 
Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in 
Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in 
its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern.  One has 
to see it to understand it.

Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like 
hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have a 
spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts.

This more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a 
harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside.

David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained
last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool /
hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this 
spiral form has two components.  As he says it, "that of chaos and order, 
and how the sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that drags 
a huge donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from Nature, 
The God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to 
whirlpools".

The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and 
could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to 
physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's 
dream into reality.

Dr. Cédric Mannu
cmannu eternite.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way
in the three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met 
with much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that 
this theory would not work.

Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a
huge whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond 
the surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one must 
understand the nature of gravity.

Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new
understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that
somebody builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the 
nature of the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists 
and researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the 
universe, and the role gravity has in it.

I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower
I put together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc

David Hubbard
dhubcal icafe.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious
R&D, I myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do 
vote for serious research on David's whirlpool technology.

Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any
scientist not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then!

To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is
still flat!

Hector D Perez
ARK RESEARCH
arkresearch hotmail.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a novelist, a 
writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human nature and the study 
thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce to the experts and authorities, 
i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla.

I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious in
his fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity of the
highest order. Ironically, this concept has been presented to him  much in 
the same manner as Einstein's "theorems", purportedly gleaned in a Theta 
state.

At the advent of the 21st century, it would certainly be prudent for
"modern" science to exercise a more flexible attitude and approach as
we reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, will we - as a
collective whole- (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to perhaps glimpse 
and perceive The raison d'être. I definitely encourage further in-depth 
exploration of THE WHIRLPOWER THEORY.

Carole Fox-Breeding
aka Marguerite McCall
Las Vegas, Nevada
Author--The Heiresses
Angel Trilogy Series

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory.  Though
I am only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this concept could 
work.  It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me that nobody 
has done any research on it until now.  Today in Geography we were watching 
videos on tornados and hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your 
theory as I saw cows and houses fly past on the screen.  Your theory has 
definetly given me a lot to think about!  I hope that you get the support 
that you need fromthe rest of the scientific community.

Good luck!
~Marisa
M_Demers telus.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Whirlpool Theory provides an interesting, and as yet untapped,
pathway to understanding our own universe in greater detail.  It is my hope 
that the Scientific Community, the information technology field in 
particular, will find the potential value of such experiments. The 
simplicity of this idea alone should cause "Science" to step back and 
reexamine where we are and where we are going.  Because in the end, the 
universe operates as simply as possible, it is humanity that adds the 
complexity.

Russ Rogers
russr planetcable.net
http://www.ducktank.net
International Who's Who of Information Technology

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After going through the theory slowly, I saw that this is quite
possible indeed, and if it has the rewards it is perceived to have, I don't 
know why someone doesn't do something about it and try it out in practice to 
a high degree of accuracy. It could change a whole lot, and if it doesn't, 
we don't lose anything, but we gain a whole lot of knowledge.

But after reading the theory, I understood how it works...quite
simple in concept, but has huge implications, and could give scientists a 
reason to go to work every morning to rethink their previous theories.

If it's a vote you want, you got it from me. But I really hope these
votes help. I understand that the least we can do to help is vote, whilst 
you are trying other ways to get it implemented in practice.

If it helps us understand Hurricans, Tornadoes and our Milky Way
itself, more clearly,  it has all the more reason to be implemented in
practice with the help of other people interested or able to do so. It's 
probably the fear of having to rewrite other theories, that keeps them from 
doing it ! :o/

Lawrence D' Costa
solarenigma hotmail.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am an inquisitive thinker with a love of physics. I feel that the
work that David Dennard and the many years of exhaustive time should be put 
to the test. I feel strongly that a large whirlpool should be
constructed so that his theories on Whirlpower can be tested properly. The 
building of a whirlpool has my full backing and I hope that others step up 
to the plate and back him too. This undertaking will not be very expensive 
and could yield a great deal of useful information. Right or wrong, we all 
stand to benefit.

Al Tillis
North Carolina, USA

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am in agreement that a Whirlpower unit as you describe should be
built.  The processes involve 3 separate orthogonal movements - which for me 
strongly indicate the potential for tapping the universal energy fabric.  
Good wishes and success with your project.

Andrew King
andrew.king dhuru.demon.uk

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a 29 year old construction worker, and like David and others on
this list I have no formal training in any of the many branches of
science, but a few years ago I realized what I had always desired to do, 
understand our universe. Since then I have tried to catch up on what has 
already been discovered to be fact and ponder the questions that arise from 
every new discovery that is made as technology advances, and theorize along 
the way.  At first I didn't think much about Whirlpower, but as a result of 
David's persistence, I finally gave in and listened.  And after some crude 
experiments on my own I became enthralled with whirlpools.

The question I keep asking myself is why.  Why does the vortex rotate?
Why does it rotate in a certain direction?  Why does a very small
output from a container cause the entire contents to spin?  Why does the 
vortex wobble?  David's theory gives us a possible explanation,  but without 
actual testing calculations there isn't any proof. Just as all other great 
thinkers in history saw what everyone else took for granted and asked "why", 
Galileo and the orbits of the planets, Newton and moving objects, Einstein 
and time, so David Dennard is showing us the whirlpool and compelling us to 
ask why, I hate to think that some very important clues to understanding our 
universe weren't studied because of the complacency of the scientific 
community, and the ones with the resources to study them.

John Hardin
DeSoto Missouri
Budove58 juno.com
(636)337-7164

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I support the Whirlpower Team to find a workable system that can be
used on a large basis or, perhaps more important, for home use. There are 
few other ideas ideas on the board that are adaptable for home use. The fact 
that we are so dependent on oil and gas (and nuclear) is ridiculous. Light, 
magnets, WATER and gravity are just a few of the options we have. 
Self-sustaining wWhirlpower is a most promising
way to go.

Dave
davem tbcnet.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I give my wholehearted support.  I also want to go on your record that I 
believe that your "whirlpool" is the single generalized concept upon
which reality is built (the "vortex" seen by the mystics throughout
time), of which your backyard water-variety would then be a functional
abstract.  A fractal, if you will.

Best of luck getting power *and* clean water out of it.

Jhan Davis
JhanDavis aol.com

****************************************************

Congratulations to Team Whirlpower for all the hard work and wonderful
things that have been happening to forward new discoveries in this
line of inquiry.  I firmly believe that there should most certainly be more 
research and development time invested into whirlpower.  More and more 
information, even on a daily basis, is coming to light and needs to be 
studied by those filled with a passion for knowledge and those wishing to 
submerge themselves in the mysteries of life and the universe.  You've got 
my vote for things to move forward in this wonderful line of research. Keep 
up all the good work!  I'll see about doing my part!  As a matter of fact, 
I've been working with computer programming and graphic design for some time 
now (though I willingly admit that I'm not the best in my field) and if some 
of my talent
can be used to help design some sort of graphic demonstration of the
processes and theories being tested...

You can count on me to do what I can.

Chris Rabideau (Asmyth)
stirbei77 c...

****************************************************

You can count myself and Mangas in as well. I too don't understand how
others don't get this. Seems pretty simple and natural to us. I am
working on getting a high school project going over the summer. That way 
there's more money spread around evenly for trying to build models. Hang in 
there, it will happen!!

--Michelle : )
fiddlette webtv.net
Golden, Colorado

*****************************************************

David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and smell 
the roses rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need to 
rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.  
That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will 
be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of Whirlpower.

For example, "The love of money is the root of all evil."

How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue the 
day it dismissed Whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific 
merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.

-Steve
Steven.Floreck omikron.com

*******************************************
________________________________________________________________________
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Jed writes:
>The FCC "organized" it, and it is available anywhere in the U.S. See:
>
>http://search1.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+site+102176+
>0+wAAA+911%7Ecell%7Ephone
>
>New York Times
>
>March 16, 2000
>
>
>Old Cell Phones Can Still Call 911
>
>By ROY FURCHGOTT
[snup}
>The Federal Communications Commission requires all cell phone service
>providers, like Sprint, AT&T and Bell Atlantic, to accept 911 calls from
>any wireless phone -- even one that no longer has a phone number or service
>contract. . . .
>
>Here in Georgia, rural postmen in some areas have all been equipped with
>911-only cell phones.
>
>- Jed

This is pretty good.  I used to know a chemist in an EPA test lab that was
trained to always have her cell phone hotkeyed into 911, and near her when
running any specimens through the various test equipment on the off chance
that a poisonous gas might be emitted.  It was something that I hadn't
thought of when running my own experiments.  There are also a lot of elderly
here in Florida (and elsewhere, of course) that fall down, and sometimes
can't get up by themselves.

My Dad has been getting up in years and has fallen numerous times, at times
injuring himself, and several times even knocking himself unconscious.  In
fact he called me today, and said that he got a new phone that had several
hotkeys on it, he had programmed my number into it and was calling to test
it out.  I had just gotten done reading this post about the cell phones, and
I said "Be sure you put 911on it.",  to which he immediately yells back, "I
don't know anybody at 911!"  He yells now all the time because of his
hearing.   I'm kind of shaking my head, and he yells "Hang up! I want to
dial you again to make sure this crazy thing works!"  So I hang up the
phone, and he never called back.  That's my Dad...

On boats, they have radio broadcasting locator devices that automatically
activate themselves when they are turned upside down, and they notify the
Coast Guard that the boat has capsized.  I think that for some people,
something along those lines might be a better idea than a cell phone, but
the current use of the old ones is certainly a commendable step in the right
direction.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 19 12:12:00 2000
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From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
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David,
You have made my day.  
Thank you!

-Steve

"Learning puffeth Men up. Words are but Wind; and Learning is nothing but
Words; Ergo, Learning is nothing but Wind"
- Jonathan Swift

-----Original Message-----
From: David Dennard [mailto:daviddennard hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 7:50 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: To Steve Floreck


Hi Steve,

Here is your vote added to the Declaration, for posterity.  :)

Any more votes?  Bring them on.  Maybe Jack?  Terry?  ???

More are coming in!

Time has come today!

David
"in sackcloth and ashes"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Press Release            Whirlpower Declaration

Apr 18 2000               To Build A Whirlpool

To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern:

>From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group:

This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool
built and tested by science.  After considerable research it has been shown 
that a whirlpool has never been built by man before.  It is our opinion that

one should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general 
public.

The research on this goes back several years on the internet and
many, many, years by myself and several people on this list.  I began by 
trying to find the whirlpools in the world after being inspired by a dream.

This search has led to this theory and call for a whirlpool to be built in 
an unbiased, multiple, Scientific Method, theorists propose, scientists 
dispose, test.  This information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower 
Declaration stating the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way 
that it will generate electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean water 
in the process!

Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving
the pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by 
the pollution and danger of current energy sources.  This is not a request 
for cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however 
those interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help support

our efforts.

Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature.
This pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar 
system, the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic.  It 
is seen in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence.

Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the
world we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few 
years ago.  Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated, "scientists are 
going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" in the ABC News 
Transcript posted at my website.  Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest of

this new understanding and predicted many of the discoveries long before 
they were announced.  Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter 
(Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall and Perlmutter), and the slowing 
down of the speed of light (Hau), are all predicted by the relative density 
displacement basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the 
fluid nature of
space.  And the very latest announcement of the proof of flat space.

Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has
weathered the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are finally

starting to see the possibility.

All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a
scientific manner.  We are asking any and all who may be interested
to try it.  Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have 
built several small models that show the action I have described, and we 
have other tests of principle models by people in our group.  These appear 
to be the first whirlpools ever built by man.  We are working on building 
our next whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on this has 
been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort and 
available for all to use.  Please help us if you can.

All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are
some of the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science.  We 
welcome any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being.

Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments.

Thank you for your consideration,

David G. Dennard
The Phoenix
655 Doyle LN
Dixon Ca USA 95620

http://www.whirlpower.cc
http://egroups.com/group/whirlpower

Contact Phone  707-678-0402

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study
of Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of
interest by many mainstream scientists.  I guess it's just a bit too
revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some.  You don't have to have a string 
of qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with a

huge scientific breakthrough.  The guy who thought up the theory of plate 
tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right. So don't 
be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your 
vision, David, you may well have the last laugh.

I hope you get the scientific support you deserve

Bill Bimson
Senior Experimental Officer
Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre
Univerity of Liverpool
L69 3BX
England

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago
when I first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger.  I have an 
active and avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up 
the challenge to further my understanding in this most  intriguing of ideas.

I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end
I see lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the 
Whirlpower Theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based 
machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth, 
extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations.

Neil Simmonds
nsimmonds yahoo.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am
studying vortex motion.  This could also apply to vortices driven by 
gravity.  I have looked at your site.  You have my full support.

Richard Cheney
RichardCHENEY leggot.ac.uk

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in
large scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test
Whirlpower soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary 
details. I will also try to help any other person that tries to do the same.

And as an ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness 
person or what ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with 
the Whirlpower
ideas!

Curt Hallberg
Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html
http://www.newphys.se
qrt.o.tina swipnet.se

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As theories get more complex, the more the parameters of what will be
significant are determined by existing theory...

...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data
and an alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a 
new paradigm is acknowledged.

Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are
necessary for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also helps

to build an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in 
the old theory.

An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same
(this is after all what this site and many others try to do)

Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can
afford to throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a 
whirlpool effect.

Andre
aw49 pixie.co.za

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard
writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics 
bashing.  He is truely on to something most of those best minds could only 
say poo or huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out.

What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE!
I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN 
THIS!!
I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want
to admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE!

...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the
upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable 
once the process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle 
the vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different 
ways (ha.haa) -

Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet
in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple 
Whirlpower!, but I can feel it works  /  Big time  / the Bigger the better!!

steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall
ekwall2 diac.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David
Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David,
from time to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought,
questioning the amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the 
vortex.  But then my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David 
really is on to something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system 
has potential. It surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as 
impossible.  Just think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on 
their first flying machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David, 
but now airplanesare a major means of transportation!

My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work,
but my intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a physicist,

I do not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior 
to be able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal 
etc.

David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other
people say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams.

Edward Maesen
http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand 
how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will 
stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine, 
Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in

Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in 
its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern.  One has 
to see it to understand it.

Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like

hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have a

spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts.

This more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a 
harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside.

David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained
last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool /
hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this 
spiral form has two components.  As he says it, "that of chaos and order, 
and how the sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that drags

a huge donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from Nature,

The God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to 
whirlpools".

The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and 
could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to 
physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's 
dream into reality.

Dr. Cédric Mannu
cmannu eternite.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way
in the three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met 
with much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that 
this theory would not work.

Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a
huge whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond 
the surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one must

understand the nature of gravity.

Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new
understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that
somebody builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the 
nature of the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists 
and researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the 
universe, and the role gravity has in it.

I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower
I put together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc

David Hubbard
dhubcal icafe.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious
R&D, I myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do 
vote for serious research on David's whirlpool technology.

Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any
scientist not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then!

To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is
still flat!

Hector D Perez
ARK RESEARCH
arkresearch hotmail.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a novelist, a 
writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human nature and the study 
thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce to the experts and authorities,

i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla.

I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious in
his fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity of the
highest order. Ironically, this concept has been presented to him  much in 
the same manner as Einstein's "theorems", purportedly gleaned in a Theta 
state.

At the advent of the 21st century, it would certainly be prudent for
"modern" science to exercise a more flexible attitude and approach as
we reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, will we - as a
collective whole- (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to perhaps glimpse 
and perceive The raison d'être. I definitely encourage further in-depth 
exploration of THE WHIRLPOWER THEORY.

Carole Fox-Breeding
aka Marguerite McCall
Las Vegas, Nevada
Author--The Heiresses
Angel Trilogy Series

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory.  Though
I am only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this concept could 
work.  It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me that nobody 
has done any research on it until now.  Today in Geography we were watching 
videos on tornados and hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your 
theory as I saw cows and houses fly past on the screen.  Your theory has 
definetly given me a lot to think about!  I hope that you get the support 
that you need fromthe rest of the scientific community.

Good luck!
~Marisa
M_Demers telus.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Whirlpool Theory provides an interesting, and as yet untapped,
pathway to understanding our own universe in greater detail.  It is my hope 
that the Scientific Community, the information technology field in 
particular, will find the potential value of such experiments. The 
simplicity of this idea alone should cause "Science" to step back and 
reexamine where we are and where we are going.  Because in the end, the 
universe operates as simply as possible, it is humanity that adds the 
complexity.

Russ Rogers
russr planetcable.net
http://www.ducktank.net
International Who's Who of Information Technology

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After going through the theory slowly, I saw that this is quite
possible indeed, and if it has the rewards it is perceived to have, I don't 
know why someone doesn't do something about it and try it out in practice to

a high degree of accuracy. It could change a whole lot, and if it doesn't, 
we don't lose anything, but we gain a whole lot of knowledge.

But after reading the theory, I understood how it works...quite
simple in concept, but has huge implications, and could give scientists a 
reason to go to work every morning to rethink their previous theories.

If it's a vote you want, you got it from me. But I really hope these
votes help. I understand that the least we can do to help is vote, whilst 
you are trying other ways to get it implemented in practice.

If it helps us understand Hurricans, Tornadoes and our Milky Way
itself, more clearly,  it has all the more reason to be implemented in
practice with the help of other people interested or able to do so. It's 
probably the fear of having to rewrite other theories, that keeps them from 
doing it ! :o/

Lawrence D' Costa
solarenigma hotmail.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am an inquisitive thinker with a love of physics. I feel that the
work that David Dennard and the many years of exhaustive time should be put 
to the test. I feel strongly that a large whirlpool should be
constructed so that his theories on Whirlpower can be tested properly. The 
building of a whirlpool has my full backing and I hope that others step up 
to the plate and back him too. This undertaking will not be very expensive 
and could yield a great deal of useful information. Right or wrong, we all 
stand to benefit.

Al Tillis
North Carolina, USA

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am in agreement that a Whirlpower unit as you describe should be
built.  The processes involve 3 separate orthogonal movements - which for me

strongly indicate the potential for tapping the universal energy fabric.  
Good wishes and success with your project.

Andrew King
andrew.king dhuru.demon.uk

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a 29 year old construction worker, and like David and others on
this list I have no formal training in any of the many branches of
science, but a few years ago I realized what I had always desired to do, 
understand our universe. Since then I have tried to catch up on what has 
already been discovered to be fact and ponder the questions that arise from 
every new discovery that is made as technology advances, and theorize along 
the way.  At first I didn't think much about Whirlpower, but as a result of 
David's persistence, I finally gave in and listened.  And after some crude 
experiments on my own I became enthralled with whirlpools.

The question I keep asking myself is why.  Why does the vortex rotate?
Why does it rotate in a certain direction?  Why does a very small
output from a container cause the entire contents to spin?  Why does the 
vortex wobble?  David's theory gives us a possible explanation,  but without

actual testing calculations there isn't any proof. Just as all other great 
thinkers in history saw what everyone else took for granted and asked "why",

Galileo and the orbits of the planets, Newton and moving objects, Einstein 
and time, so David Dennard is showing us the whirlpool and compelling us to 
ask why, I hate to think that some very important clues to understanding our

universe weren't studied because of the complacency of the scientific 
community, and the ones with the resources to study them.

John Hardin
DeSoto Missouri
Budove58 juno.com
(636)337-7164

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I support the Whirlpower Team to find a workable system that can be
used on a large basis or, perhaps more important, for home use. There are 
few other ideas ideas on the board that are adaptable for home use. The fact

that we are so dependent on oil and gas (and nuclear) is ridiculous. Light, 
magnets, WATER and gravity are just a few of the options we have. 
Self-sustaining wWhirlpower is a most promising
way to go.

Dave
davem tbcnet.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I give my wholehearted support.  I also want to go on your record that I 
believe that your "whirlpool" is the single generalized concept upon
which reality is built (the "vortex" seen by the mystics throughout
time), of which your backyard water-variety would then be a functional
abstract.  A fractal, if you will.

Best of luck getting power *and* clean water out of it.

Jhan Davis
JhanDavis aol.com

****************************************************

Congratulations to Team Whirlpower for all the hard work and wonderful
things that have been happening to forward new discoveries in this
line of inquiry.  I firmly believe that there should most certainly be more 
research and development time invested into whirlpower.  More and more 
information, even on a daily basis, is coming to light and needs to be 
studied by those filled with a passion for knowledge and those wishing to 
submerge themselves in the mysteries of life and the universe.  You've got 
my vote for things to move forward in this wonderful line of research. Keep 
up all the good work!  I'll see about doing my part!  As a matter of fact, 
I've been working with computer programming and graphic design for some time

now (though I willingly admit that I'm not the best in my field) and if some

of my talent
can be used to help design some sort of graphic demonstration of the
processes and theories being tested...

You can count on me to do what I can.

Chris Rabideau (Asmyth)
stirbei77 c...

****************************************************

You can count myself and Mangas in as well. I too don't understand how
others don't get this. Seems pretty simple and natural to us. I am
working on getting a high school project going over the summer. That way 
there's more money spread around evenly for trying to build models. Hang in 
there, it will happen!!

--Michelle : )
fiddlette webtv.net
Golden, Colorado

*****************************************************

David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and smell

the roses rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need to 
rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.

That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will 
be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of Whirlpower.

For example, "The love of money is the root of all evil."

How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue the 
day it dismissed Whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific 
merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.

-Steve
Steven.Floreck omikron.com

*******************************************
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 19 14:20:20 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Hi Steve,

Lovers of themselves, puffed up with pride.

Let he who hath Wisdom count the number of the beast.

David Dennard
The Pearl of Wisdom
http://www.whirlpower.cc

Quick correction in search of perfection, date is May 18 2000 on that 
edition of the Press Release.

Things are hoppin' at <Antigravity egroups.com>


>From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: To Steve Floreck
>Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:04:39 -0700
>
>David,
>You have made my day.
>Thank you!
>
>-Steve
>
>"Learning puffeth Men up. Words are but Wind; and Learning is nothing but
>Words; Ergo, Learning is nothing but Wind"
>- Jonathan Swift
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Dennard [mailto:daviddennard hotmail.com]
>Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 7:50 PM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: To Steve Floreck
>
>
>Hi Steve,
>
>Here is your vote added to the Declaration, for posterity.  :)
>
>Any more votes?  Bring them on.  Maybe Jack?  Terry?  ???
>
>More are coming in!
>
>Time has come today!
>
>David
>"in sackcloth and ashes"
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>Press Release            Whirlpower Declaration
>
>May 18 2000               To Build A Whirlpool
>
>To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern:
>
>From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group:
>
>This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool
>built and tested by science.  After considerable research it has been shown
>that a whirlpool has never been built by man before.  It is our opinion 
>that
>
>one should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general
>public.
>
>The research on this goes back several years on the internet and
>many, many, years by myself and several people on this list.  I began by
>trying to find the whirlpools in the world after being inspired by a dream.
>
>This search has led to this theory and call for a whirlpool to be built in
>an unbiased, multiple, Scientific Method, theorists propose, scientists
>dispose, test.  This information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower
>Declaration stating the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way
>that it will generate electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean water
>in the process!
>
>Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving
>the pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by
>the pollution and danger of current energy sources.  This is not a request
>for cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however
>those interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help 
>support
>
>our efforts.
>
>Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature.
>This pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar
>system, the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic.  It
>is seen in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence.
>
>Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the
>world we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few
>years ago.  Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated, "scientists are
>going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" in the ABC News
>Transcript posted at my website.  Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest 
>of
>
>this new understanding and predicted many of the discoveries long before
>they were announced.  Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter
>(Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall and Perlmutter), and the slowing
>down of the speed of light (Hau), are all predicted by the relative density
>displacement basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the
>fluid nature of
>space.  And the very latest announcement of the proof of flat space.
>
>Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has
>weathered the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are 
>finally
>
>starting to see the possibility.
>
>All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a
>scientific manner.  We are asking any and all who may be interested
>to try it.  Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have
>built several small models that show the action I have described, and we
>have other tests of principle models by people in our group.  These appear
>to be the first whirlpools ever built by man.  We are working on building
>our next whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on this has
>been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort and
>available for all to use.  Please help us if you can.
>
>All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are
>some of the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science.  We
>welcome any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being.
>
>Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments.
>
>Thank you for your consideration,
>
>David G. Dennard
>The Phoenix
>655 Doyle LN
>Dixon Ca USA 95620
>
>http://www.whirlpower.cc
>http://egroups.com/group/whirlpower
>
>Contact Phone  707-678-0402
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study
>of Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of
>interest by many mainstream scientists.  I guess it's just a bit too
>revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some.  You don't have to have a string
>of qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with 
>a
>
>huge scientific breakthrough.  The guy who thought up the theory of plate
>tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right. So don't
>be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your
>vision, David, you may well have the last laugh.
>
>I hope you get the scientific support you deserve
>
>Bill Bimson
>Senior Experimental Officer
>Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre
>Univerity of Liverpool
>L69 3BX
>England
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago
>when I first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger.  I have an
>active and avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up
>the challenge to further my understanding in this most  intriguing of 
>ideas.
>
>I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end
>I see lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the
>Whirlpower Theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based
>machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth,
>extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations.
>
>Neil Simmonds
>nsimmonds yahoo.com
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am
>studying vortex motion.  This could also apply to vortices driven by
>gravity.  I have looked at your site.  You have my full support.
>
>Richard Cheney
>RichardCHENEY leggot.ac.uk
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in
>large scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test
>Whirlpower soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary
>details. I will also try to help any other person that tries to do the 
>same.
>
>And as an ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness
>person or what ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with
>the Whirlpower
>ideas!
>
>Curt Hallberg
>Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World
>http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html
>http://www.newphys.se
>qrt.o.tina swipnet.se
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>As theories get more complex, the more the parameters of what will be
>significant are determined by existing theory...
>
>...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data
>and an alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a
>new paradigm is acknowledged.
>
>Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are
>necessary for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also 
>helps
>
>to build an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in
>the old theory.
>
>An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same
>(this is after all what this site and many others try to do)
>
>Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can
>afford to throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a
>whirlpool effect.
>
>Andre
>aw49 pixie.co.za
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard
>writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics
>bashing.  He is truely on to something most of those best minds could only
>say poo or huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out.
>
>What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE!
>I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN
>THIS!!
>I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want
>to admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE!
>
>...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the
>upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable
>once the process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle
>the vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different
>ways (ha.haa) -
>
>Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet
>in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple
>Whirlpower!, but I can feel it works  /  Big time  / the Bigger the 
>better!!
>
>steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall
>ekwall2 diac.com
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David
>Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David,
>from time to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought,
>questioning the amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the
>vortex.  But then my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David
>really is on to something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system
>has potential. It surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as
>impossible.  Just think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on
>their first flying machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David,
>but now airplanesare a major means of transportation!
>
>My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work,
>but my intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a 
>physicist,
>
>I do not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior
>to be able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal
>etc.
>
>David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other
>people say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams.
>
>Edward Maesen
>http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand
>how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will
>stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine,
>Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry 
>in
>
>Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in
>its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern.  One has
>to see it to understand it.
>
>Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, 
>like
>
>hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have 
>a
>
>spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts.
>
>This more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a
>harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside.
>
>David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained
>last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool /
>hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this
>spiral form has two components.  As he says it, "that of chaos and order,
>and how the sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that 
>drags
>
>a huge donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from 
>Nature,
>
>The God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to
>whirlpools".
>
>The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and
>could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to
>physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's
>dream into reality.
>
>Dr. Cédric Mannu
>cmannu eternite.com
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way
>in the three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met
>with much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that
>this theory would not work.
>
>Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a
>huge whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond
>the surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one 
>must
>
>understand the nature of gravity.
>
>Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new
>understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that
>somebody builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the
>nature of the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists
>and researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the
>universe, and the role gravity has in it.
>
>I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower
>I put together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
>David Hubbard
>dhubcal icafe.net
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious
>R&D, I myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do
>vote for serious research on David's whirlpool technology.
>
>Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any
>scientist not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then!
>
>To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is
>still flat!
>
>Hector D Perez
>ARK RESEARCH
>arkresearch hotmail.com
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a novelist, a
>writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human nature and the study
>thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce to the experts and 
>authorities,
>
>i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla.
>
>I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious in
>his fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity of the
>highest order. Ironically, this concept has been presented to him  much in
>the same manner as Einstein's "theorems", purportedly gleaned in a Theta
>state.
>
>At the advent of the 21st century, it would certainly be prudent for
>"modern" science to exercise a more flexible attitude and approach as
>we reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, will we - as a
>collective whole- (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to perhaps glimpse
>and perceive The raison d'être. I definitely encourage further in-depth
>exploration of THE WHIRLPOWER THEORY.
>
>Carole Fox-Breeding
>aka Marguerite McCall
>Las Vegas, Nevada
>Author--The Heiresses
>Angel Trilogy Series
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory.  Though
>I am only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this concept could
>work.  It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me that nobody
>has done any research on it until now.  Today in Geography we were watching
>videos on tornados and hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your
>theory as I saw cows and houses fly past on the screen.  Your theory has
>definetly given me a lot to think about!  I hope that you get the support
>that you need fromthe rest of the scientific community.
>
>Good luck!
>~Marisa
>M_Demers telus.net
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>The Whirlpool Theory provides an interesting, and as yet untapped,
>pathway to understanding our own universe in greater detail.  It is my hope
>that the Scientific Community, the information technology field in
>particular, will find the potential value of such experiments. The
>simplicity of this idea alone should cause "Science" to step back and
>reexamine where we are and where we are going.  Because in the end, the
>universe operates as simply as possible, it is humanity that adds the
>complexity.
>
>Russ Rogers
>russr planetcable.net
>http://www.ducktank.net
>International Who's Who of Information Technology
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>After going through the theory slowly, I saw that this is quite
>possible indeed, and if it has the rewards it is perceived to have, I don't
>know why someone doesn't do something about it and try it out in practice 
>to
>
>a high degree of accuracy. It could change a whole lot, and if it doesn't,
>we don't lose anything, but we gain a whole lot of knowledge.
>
>But after reading the theory, I understood how it works...quite
>simple in concept, but has huge implications, and could give scientists a
>reason to go to work every morning to rethink their previous theories.
>
>If it's a vote you want, you got it from me. But I really hope these
>votes help. I understand that the least we can do to help is vote, whilst
>you are trying other ways to get it implemented in practice.
>
>If it helps us understand Hurricans, Tornadoes and our Milky Way
>itself, more clearly,  it has all the more reason to be implemented in
>practice with the help of other people interested or able to do so. It's
>probably the fear of having to rewrite other theories, that keeps them from
>doing it ! :o/
>
>Lawrence D' Costa
>solarenigma hotmail.com
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I am an inquisitive thinker with a love of physics. I feel that the
>work that David Dennard and the many years of exhaustive time should be put
>to the test. I feel strongly that a large whirlpool should be
>constructed so that his theories on Whirlpower can be tested properly. The
>building of a whirlpool has my full backing and I hope that others step up
>to the plate and back him too. This undertaking will not be very expensive
>and could yield a great deal of useful information. Right or wrong, we all
>stand to benefit.
>
>Al Tillis
>North Carolina, USA
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I am in agreement that a Whirlpower unit as you describe should be
>built.  The processes involve 3 separate orthogonal movements - which for 
>me
>
>strongly indicate the potential for tapping the universal energy fabric.
>Good wishes and success with your project.
>
>Andrew King
>andrew.king dhuru.demon.uk
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I am a 29 year old construction worker, and like David and others on
>this list I have no formal training in any of the many branches of
>science, but a few years ago I realized what I had always desired to do,
>understand our universe. Since then I have tried to catch up on what has
>already been discovered to be fact and ponder the questions that arise from
>every new discovery that is made as technology advances, and theorize along
>the way.  At first I didn't think much about Whirlpower, but as a result of
>David's persistence, I finally gave in and listened.  And after some crude
>experiments on my own I became enthralled with whirlpools.
>
>The question I keep asking myself is why.  Why does the vortex rotate?
>Why does it rotate in a certain direction?  Why does a very small
>output from a container cause the entire contents to spin?  Why does the
>vortex wobble?  David's theory gives us a possible explanation,  but 
>without
>
>actual testing calculations there isn't any proof. Just as all other great
>thinkers in history saw what everyone else took for granted and asked 
>"why",
>
>Galileo and the orbits of the planets, Newton and moving objects, Einstein
>and time, so David Dennard is showing us the whirlpool and compelling us to
>ask why, I hate to think that some very important clues to understanding 
>our
>
>universe weren't studied because of the complacency of the scientific
>community, and the ones with the resources to study them.
>
>John Hardin
>DeSoto Missouri
>Budove58 juno.com
>(636)337-7164
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I support the Whirlpower Team to find a workable system that can be
>used on a large basis or, perhaps more important, for home use. There are
>few other ideas ideas on the board that are adaptable for home use. The 
>fact
>
>that we are so dependent on oil and gas (and nuclear) is ridiculous. Light,
>magnets, WATER and gravity are just a few of the options we have.
>Self-sustaining wWhirlpower is a most promising
>way to go.
>
>Dave
>davem tbcnet.com
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>I give my wholehearted support.  I also want to go on your record that I
>believe that your "whirlpool" is the single generalized concept upon
>which reality is built (the "vortex" seen by the mystics throughout
>time), of which your backyard water-variety would then be a functional
>abstract.  A fractal, if you will.
>
>Best of luck getting power *and* clean water out of it.
>
>Jhan Davis
>JhanDavis aol.com
>
>****************************************************
>
>Congratulations to Team Whirlpower for all the hard work and wonderful
>things that have been happening to forward new discoveries in this
>line of inquiry.  I firmly believe that there should most certainly be more
>research and development time invested into whirlpower.  More and more
>information, even on a daily basis, is coming to light and needs to be
>studied by those filled with a passion for knowledge and those wishing to
>submerge themselves in the mysteries of life and the universe.  You've got
>my vote for things to move forward in this wonderful line of research. Keep
>up all the good work!  I'll see about doing my part!  As a matter of fact,
>I've been working with computer programming and graphic design for some 
>time
>
>now (though I willingly admit that I'm not the best in my field) and if 
>some
>
>of my talent
>can be used to help design some sort of graphic demonstration of the
>processes and theories being tested...
>
>You can count on me to do what I can.
>
>Chris Rabideau (Asmyth)
>stirbei77 c...
>
>****************************************************
>
>You can count myself and Mangas in as well. I too don't understand how
>others don't get this. Seems pretty simple and natural to us. I am
>working on getting a high school project going over the summer. That way
>there's more money spread around evenly for trying to build models. Hang in
>there, it will happen!!
>
>--Michelle : )
>fiddlette webtv.net
>Golden, Colorado
>
>*****************************************************
>
>David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array of
>irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to wake up and 
>smell
>
>the roses rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.  You need to
>rise above mathematics, experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.
>
>That's what they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will
>be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of Whirlpower.
>
>For example, "The love of money is the root of all evil."
>
>How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will rue the
>day it dismissed Whirlpower because of some perceived lack of scientific
>merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.
>
>-Steve
>Steven.Floreck omikron.com
>
>*******************************************
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 19 14:45:47 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:40:36 EDT
Subject: Re: Mills + Blacklight power.
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In a message dated 05/18/2000 2:11:11 AM, joe tao.org.uk writes:

<< I've got some comment from a friend of mine about Mill's works, from
a mathematical perspective.  I'd be happy to share it with anyone who's
interested in the theory behind the hydrino. >>

Fire away.

What are your friend's mathematical credentials?

Tom Stolper

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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
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*** Forwarded message, written by webmaster lauralee.com on 19-May-00 ***
LAURA LEE E-NEWS
By Subscription Only
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
UPCOMING TOPIC/GUEST LINE-UP
DAILY ONLINE SHOW: 7-8pm PST/10-11pm EST
Lineup for the Week of May 22 -26 , 2000
Audio and Chatroom launch at http://www.lauralee.com

*Monday May 22 - From the VAULT*
*Eugene Mallove: Anti-Gravity & Sonoluminescence*
*Editor of Infinite Energy Magazine and leading proponent of the* 
*controversial subject of Cold Fusion enlightens us with an intriguing* 
*theory of sonoluminescence, the idea that sound and light waves can* 
*conjunct and produce anti-gravity effects. This is a Laura Lee Audio* 
*Vault Presentation - originally aired 09/07/96 - More info at* 
*http://www.lauralee.com/mallove.htm*
[snip...]

-- 
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http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/
http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 20 11:38:51 2000
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Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 14:37:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Goldes <mg3545 mail.com>
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Subject: RE: NEW Cold Fusion Book=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=8b_EXCESS_HEAT?=
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Gene,

Just want to let you and Jed and others on vortex know how fine a book you
have published.

Beaudette has done a truly magnificent piece of work!

I hope it gets widely reviewed.

Anyone on this list who has doubts that excess heat is real should do
themselves a favor and read this excellent, in-depth study of the story to
date.

Even more surprising in a work of this nature is the author's fine sense of
humor.

Mark Goldes
Chairman & CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.

------Original Message------
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: May 16, 2000 7:11:14 PM GMT
Subject: NEW Cold Fusion Book=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=8b_EXCESS_HEAT?=





New Cold Fusion Book
NOW AVAILABLE
from Infinite Energy Press, Exclusive Distributor

Landmark book assesses the methodologies of science during a great
paradigm shift.

EXCESS HEAT:
Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed
by Charles G. Beaudette (S.B. in Electrical Engineering, MIT, 1952)

Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke

³...almost certainly the biggest scandal in the history of science...
Beaudette has done a remarkable job in untangling and documenting the
whole story of cold fusion... In 1973, when OPEC started to multiply the
price of oil, I rashly predicted: ŒThe age of cheap power is over‹ the
age of free power is still fifty years ahead.¹  Excess Heat strengthens
my hope that this may not be too far from the truth, early in the new
millennium.²

"...Mr. Beaudette has done a thorough job summing up the controversial
history of this subject, and I do not see how any unbiased reader can now
doubt that anomalous energy is being produced from some source - not
necessarily fusion."


Introduction by David J. Nagel, Ph.D.
(Formerly Superintendent, Condensed Matter and Radiation Sciences
Division, U.S. Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, D.C.)

³The terms Œpathological science¹ or Œvoodoo science¹ frequently follow
mention of the subject. Excess Heat deftly makes the case, in fashion
reminiscent of a legal brief, for serious attention to the subject. This
book concludes that there is no basis now for dismissing cold fusion.
Each of the major reasons offered for ignoring, or actively opposing,
further research are shown to be flawed. The persistent lack of a
theoretical explanation and problems with experimental reproducibility
are major legitimate concerns, but they are not reasons to trash the
topic.²


"As cold fusion scientists and technologists from around the world
convene at the Eighth International Conference on Cold Fusion in Italy
(May 21-26, 2000) a landmark book by MIT-trained electrical engineer,
Charles G. Beaudette will reach them. Beaudette dubs his work, 'An
investigative report prepared for the general reader to explain how the
most extraordinary claim made in the basic sciences during the twentieth
century was mistakenly dismissed through errors of scientific protocol.'
Unlike rush jobs by poorly informed critics in the early 1990s, Excess
Heat is copiously illustrated with scientific diagrams and meticulously
referenced with mounting, peer-reviewed scientific papers and historical
facts." ‹ Eugene Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine

Published by Oak Grove Press,  LLC, Bristol, Maine
ISBN 0-9678548-0-6 (Hardcover);  ISBN 0-9678548-1-4 (Paperback);  355
pages


AVAILABLE *NOW* FROM:
Infinite Energy Press
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

PRICES INCLUDE AIR MAIL SHIPPING:

Paperback:  $29.95  (North America)
$34.95  (Other Foreign)

Hardcover:  $39.95  (North America)
$46.95) (Other Foreign)

Phone: 603-228-4516
Fax:   603-224-5975
staff infinite-energy.com

http://www.infinite-energy.com

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 20 12:40:31 2000
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	Who is Steve Floreck?

	Please

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 20 13:27:13 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: RFilter....e: Can't be done. or ..Extrapolation  from theory : Light Speed Paradox? (fwd)
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	Dear Hank,

	The exact details for the filter depend on the application and
this one is a variation of some types of active or "tracking" or
"adaptive" filters...and is NOT  DSP.

	There are multiple time constants in the front part of the
filter... and they are switched in such a manner as to have the filter be
fast in tracking an abrupt change in amplitide of the incoming signal.
	The back half of the filter is a second filter... and it will not
respond to changes faster than... some figure, depending on the
application... for the initial Brain Wave Work the 2nd part of the filter
would see 1 millisecond... 2 millisecond.... but not any longer.
	The switching of the differing time constants of the front part
of the filter was  very fast.... faster than aboyt 3/4 of a millisecond...
so the "hooroo Gaw Raw" of the switching was not able to pass....and the
filter exhibited a nice smooth output... the roll off of a 2 pole Sallen
and Key type Equal Value filter... is, in general, 3 dBel per pole, or
minus 6 dBel ... and the delay is 90 degrees.... the unusual filter
exhibited a 10 dBel roll off ... and the lag was about 80 to 83 degrees.

	In the past I have been able to do a lot of nice smooth things to
analog signals... and also some fast "sprain your eyeball to watch 'em"
things to signals.   
	I enjoy mixing different methodolgies to get the final results...
and example would be using comression in the analog domain to realize
100,000 : 1 "squashing" and a distributed 21 poles with 11 poles low pass
filter, 4 poles band pass, 4 poles high pass  with the remained being all
pass....

	I am particularly interested in low noise and non standard
circuits...  I like vacuum tubes and a wide range of semiconductors,
including GaAs, Si, Ge, CdS, Al,Al,InS and so on... you can make some very
nice smooth non linear "translations" of signals which have wide dynamic
range in areas beyond the usual human sensory ken.... and bring the
signals TO the human, both to the ear and the eye.

				J

On Mon, 15 May 2000, hank scudder wrote:

> John
> 	Please give a circuit diagram and some specs 
> about your successful
> low-pass-filter. It sounds very interesting
> 
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Sat, 13 May 2000, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 	A little editorial.....
> > 
> > 
> > 	Dear Folks,
> > 
> > 	This comment is not directed per se to any individual.  I am
> > grateful to Dirgo for putting some words down... I am many times not so
> > good with words... I know what is in my mind ... but have, at times, a
> > trouble with conveying it...
> > 
> > 	There is a wonderful set here, in text ... see flag and comment
> > 
> > On Thu, 11 May 2000 dirigo34 aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > > There is no paradox. The mass of a photon is all due
> > > to is speed. At least classically. Actually this is what
> > > got Einstein his Noble Prize, the photoelectric effect. 
> > > This is the explaination for why high energy photons
> > > throw off electrons from a metallic plate. The REST
> > > mass of a photon is ZERO, NULL, ZIP.
> > 
> > ____________	FLAG	__________
> > 
> > "....We know this from extrapolation of theory,..........."
> > 
> > 	COMMENT:  To an experimentalist, such as myself, a theory is
> > justthat, a frame constructed by people to try to understand an
> > observation....  To go further and extrapolate from the theory is to
> > take one's self even further from the source... and the source is 
> > 	"What is REALLY happening.. or what is REALLY the nature of
> > some observation ... and how this is connected to what is observed....
> > 
> > 	The theory ... to me, does NOT allow me to KNOW... and
> > extrapolation is even further from knowing.
> > 
> > 	I don't know how to say this any beeter.  I have made observations
> > and have even made physical systems or devices which "go against" theory.
> > 
> > 	One example:
> > 
> > 	NOTE:  If you want to see part of the real world result of the
> > example below, please see May 1994 Discover Magazine and an article
> > entitled "Brain Powered" ... the filter described below helped in large
> > part, make the system in the article possible
> > 
> > 	Short Cherry Tree Story
> > 
> > 	I was building a signal processing systems for USAF and learning
> > about the process of applying analog filters to difficult and
> > uncooperative electronic signals. A
> > certain part of the system used a low pass filter and the filter slowed
> > things down.  The reduction in speed was a big problem.  I set out to
> > build a faster filter and was told:
> > 	"You can't build a faster low pass filter of this type." 
> > 
> >  I asked why and the answer was, in paraphrase and condensed:  
> > 
> > 	"If you make the filter faster it will be less effective... if you
> > make it more effective it will be slower"
> > 	
> > 	I asked "Why?"
> > 
> > 	The final answer was "The two properties are mathmatically
> > exclusive"
> > 
> > 	I DID wind up building the 'mathmatically unlikely ( I do not want
> > to use the word impossible) filter.  
> > 	Two key PhDs had to evaluate the new filter topolgy before it
> > could be used in an actual real world USAF experimental system.
> > 
> > 	One said " You are cheating ."
> > 	The other said " You are dangerous......do not change any part of
> > it and put it in the system."
> > 
> > 	SO:  The bottom line?
> > 
> > 	A theory does not, for me, help me to "know" something is true.  I
> > am satisfied only partly... and then only after I have found and read more
> > than one experimental account and spoken with or written to the actual
> > investigators. 
> > 
> > 	There are many cases where the "Known Facts" change... on reciept
> > of new information.... I try to dig for the information to satify
> > myself... and even better, if I can, conduct investigations of my own.
> > 
> > ------------------------ 40 -----------
> > 
> >  just like we
> > know that 
> > > absolute zero is 0 Kelvin. We've never gotten there,
> > > (clse these days but not quite there) Now then if 
> > > someone is able to do an experiment and verifiably
> > > measure a temperature below 0 K I would be interested
> > > in it. If you are interested in the physics of this look up
> > > de Broglie Wavelength in any Modern Physic book and
> > > you will have some interesting reading.
> > > i
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Dirigo
> > 
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 20 13:36:38 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Odd Casimir... Casismir (fwd)
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	Dear Folks,

	So far on the Casimir Effect I have found several mentions, and a
catalog of these will be found, below.
	Please add to and add any corrections, Thank you;


	1]	Effect noted in two metal plates
	2]	Effect Must be with conductors only
	3]	Effect with two mica plates
	4]	Effect with a small sphere and target...

		4a]	ball covered with aluminum
		4b]	covered with gold

	A description, below;

On Mon, 15 May 2000 ybrand net2000.ch wrote:
> --- In jlnlabs egroups.com, riskrraven@a... wrote:
> 
> Dear Ed,
> 
> The Casimir effect has first been stated by... Casimir, using quantum
> mechanics and more precisely the quantum fluctuations of the voide
> selected by a parallel plate waveguide. The quantum mechanics
> computation has been also carried out using classical Maxwel equations
> and the postulated ZPF or ZPE random field. The treatment of the ZPF
> field over the parallel plates waveguide offers a selection of the
> propagated modes between the plates of the guide (basically a parallel
> condensator). Thus, there is less propagating (and of course
> quantified modes by the distance between the two plates) modes inside
> of the waveguide, than the number of modes outise of the guide. The
> radiation presure, composed by the sum of all the modes bouncing on
> the surface of the plates, is thus greather outside of the parallel
> plate guide than between the plates, hence the greather attraction of
> the plates.
> The phenomenon is analoguous to the room filled with baloons, into
> witch a white noise (sound) is applied. The baloons will be grouped
> together in the center of the room, by the same process, i.e. less
> modes available between the baloons than outside of the baloon
> cluster.
> 
> To answer your question, the metallic plates are used because it
> provides a better boundary condition (even better if perfect
> conductors are used). Thus the mode selection is enforced by the
> metallic boundary condition and a greather effect is expected. But the
> effect still works with dielectrics. I have read recently an article
> where a 5% and better accuracy between theoretical values and
> measurements were claimed.
> 
> You can look at:
> http://www.calphysics.org/research.html
> to find usefull references on this interesting topic.
> 
> In addition, an interesting parallel between the antenna near fields
> and the Casimir effect can be done, since booth effects behave like
> 1/r^2 in the long range (for the gravity g(r) and the E-M power
> density p(r) [W/m^2]) but behaves in 1/r^4 and more in the near field.
> As an antenna specialist, I find this parallel interesting and
> puzzling. 
> 
> Salutations de Neuchatel,
> 
> Yan Brand
---------------

	Another
> 
> > Hi John,
> > I dont have much to offer, but I do know that the Casmir Effect is
> a 
> > popularly accepted force due to the zero point field fluctuations. 
> It has 
> > been observed to act on two plates of UNCHARGED metal in very close 
> > proximity.  I have no idea why it works with metal (but Casmir did
> PREDICT 
> > that it would happen, that prediction, though, I have never read,
> nor do I 
> > know the nature of it).  Mainstream science does they have any
> really good 
> > explanation as to why it occurs other than this: the zero point
> field 
> > fluctuations may slightly cohere and draw the plates together 
> > electromagnetically, or, as is more surprisingly, POPULARLY
> accepted:  the 
> > plates of metal are drawn to each other because of negative
> space-time energy 
> > between the plates that arises from the ZPE.  Some mainstream, but
> more 
> > speculative bent, physicists believe that this may be a way to keep
> a worm 
> > hole open, because the negative energy would push the mouth of the
> hole open. 
> >  As far as modern, popularly accepted Quantum Theory goes, the
> Casmir Effect 
> > is the only known and practically apliable way of interating with
> the ZPE.  
> > Obviously, given the work of JL, et al, that is more than likely a
> narrow 
> > minded view.
> > 
> > Oh, in Moray King's Ether Technology (actually, it is authored by
> "Rho 
> > Sigma," that's King though), there is some treatment of the Casmir
> force.  He 
> > says it may be due to that slight cohering I mentioned earlier, or,
> it might 
> > have to do with "vacuum polarization" a term that he also relates to
> Brown's 
> > work with capacitors and dielectrics.  Unfortunately, I dont have
> the book 
> > here with me, and I'm not all that knowledgable about "vacuum
> polarization" 
> > as a term, but it may just refer to the seperation of the negative
> and 
> > positive space-time fluctuations of the ZPE, and what happens when
> they are 
> > seperated.  I hope some of this is useful to you and your work.
> > 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May 21 06:46:59 2000
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From: David Jonsson <david bahnhof.se>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: I'm visiting the US
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Im going from Sweden to US this summer. Can I visit anyone out there? I'll
be staying in the NY and Salt Lake City area but I can travel further if
needed. I suppose I can even do sme work.

I am interested in anti-gravity, vortex motion, magnetization of water and
non relativity ideas.

David

David Jonsson  US Fax +1 (305) 946-7851      
Stockholm      Phone +46-703-000370          E-mail David djk.se
Sweden         http://www.bahnhof.se/~david  Postgiro 499 40 54-7

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May 21 10:14:56 2000
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The Society for Scientific Exploration is holding its annual conference in
a few weeks (June 8-11) in Canada (London, Ont, about 1.5 hrs drive from
Toronto.)

I'm going.  Will any vortexians be there?




http://www.scientificexploration.org/meetings/19th.html

PROGRAM 
(Invited speakers are listed in capitals) 

Wednesday, June 7, 2000 

Reception and Registration: Station Park Hotel, 7-11 pm 

Thursday, June 8, 2000 

8:00 Registration 

9:00 Welcome by CLAUDIA CLAUSIUS, Academic Dean, King
The Evolution of Science: Philosophy, Technology, Purpose 

9:05 ROBERT G. JAHN, Reflections and Projections of Past and
Future Science 
9:50 Mike Epstein, Students Examining the Anomalous 
10:45 H.D. Froning, Jr. and T.W. Barrett, Theoretical and
Experimental Investigations of Specially Conditioned EM Radiation 
11:10 Thomas M. Dykstra, Anomalous Field Detection in Insects 
11:35 York Dobyns, Harmonic Analysis of REG Cumulative Deviations 
12:00 Lunch 
2:00 MARK McMENAMIN, The Garden of Ediacara: Caulerpa and
Climactichnites 
2:45 James Beichler, To Be or Not to Be? A New Science for a New
Millennium 
3:30 SETH SHOSTAK, Search for Extraterrestrials 
4:15 Richard Day, A Roche-Limit Encounter Explains Martian
Features 
4:40 Roberta Colasanti, Comparative Narratives of Reports of
Multiply Witnessed "Abduction" Experiences Commonly Called "Alien
Abduction": A Pilot Study 
5:05 SSE Business Meeting 

Friday, June 9, 2000 

Biosciences and Medicine: Anomalies in a Pragmatic Framework 

9:00 WAYNE JONAS, Homeopathy, Research Strategies for Hard
Problems 
9:45 John Mack, Commentary on Subjective Issues 
10:00 James DeMeo, Seed Sprouting inside the Orgone Energy
Accumulator 
10:45 ALEXANDER BEREZIN, Countable Infinities, Self-Organization,
and Isotopic Diversity 
11:30 Martin Berzins, Astrology with Dynamics: Live Matching of
Subjects to Horoscopes 
11:55 Mark Urban-Lurain, A Multivariate Approach to Evaluating
Astrology 
12:20 Lunch 
2:15 KILMER McCULLY, SSE Dinsdale Award Lecture: The Biomedical
Significance of Homocysteine 
3:00 Bruce Greyson, Are Near-Death Experiencers Out of Their
Bodies or Out of Their Minds? 
3:25 Jim B. Tucker, A Scale to Measure Children4:00 SSE Young
Investigators Seminar 
5:00 Field Trip and Picnic: Pinery Provincial Park on Lake Huron
bus trip and picnic supper provided; Alternative
Saturday, June 10, 2000 

Language and Consciousness: The Future of Communication 

9:00 EVAN PRITCHARD, Comprehensivism: The Wave of the Future (and
Past) 
9:45 Stanley Krippner and Laura Faith, Anomalous Dreams: A
Cross-Cultural Study 
10:10 Mahadeva Srinivasan, The Relevance in the Third Millennium
of the ESP of Subatomic Particles Carried out a Century Ago 
10:55 IMANTS BARUSS, The Art of Science: Science of the Future in
Light of Alterations of Consciousness 
11:40 David Davies, A Physical Explanation of Consciousness Based
on the New Logical Construct of Spatially Non-Local Branching in
Time 
12:05 Lunch 
2:00 JOHN PETERSON, To Quote Thomas Kuhn, It2:45 Vinzenz von
Tscharner, The Repeatability of Dowsing Reactions 
3:10 Andrei Apostol, Anomalous Information Obtained across a
Geologic Fault 

Closing the Public-Scientist Interest Gap: Should It Be Done? Can
It Be Done? 
3:55 FORUM, Wayne Jonas, Moderator Participants: Peter Sturrock,
John Bockris, Brenda Dunne, Charles Tolbert 
6:30 Banquet, Sunningdale Golf Club, Dinner, Awards, Entertainment 
(short bus trip provided) 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                             SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                             http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun May 21 11:50:44 2000
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Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:45:32 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Books/Links to Super string theory?
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Hi fellow vorts,

Can someone recommend to me any recent books/URLs on super string
theory?  Are there any text books available?

Many thanks in advance,
Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 22 14:03:37 2000
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Gnorts Vorts!

Have you ever tried to visualize the internet?  This web site is
dedicated to mapping the internet:

http://www.cybergeography.org/

Particularly interesting are router maps of the entire internet:

http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/topology.html

Also, check out Lucent's mapping approach:

http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/ches/map/index.html

see the map gallery.

If all this intrigues you, check out Mappa.Mundi Magazines maps
of all things virtual:

http://mappa.mundi.net/map/

Warning!  Some of these images are over half a Megabyte.

Enjoy,

Terry

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Although crossposts from spf are usually frowned upon, I thought
a firsh hand report about BLP might be interesting to Vorts.

Regards,

Terry

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Path: news1.atl!hubfeed.atl!newsfeed.atl!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!romeo.dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail
From: "Svein Utne" <Utne msoft.no>
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Subject: Trip to BLP 
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-From: Luther Setzer  <luthersetzer y...>
      Date: Sun May 21, 2000 1:37pm
      Subject: My Trip to BLP


      Folks,

      I'm back from my tour of BlackLight Power in Cranbury,
      NJ. This was my first face-to-face meeting with Dr.
      Randell Mills (Randy) and my first "hands-on" exposure
      to his work.

      I was thoroughly impressed!

      Randy shows all the signs of being a broad-based
      genius, a "Renaissance Man" with strong skills in many
      different disciplines of science. I'm not saying that
      to flatter him. It's just my honest impression. He
      really *can* talk about all kinds of deeply complex
      subjects "off the top of his head" with clarity and a
      total grounding to reality.

      As for the lab work, Randy has a good handful of Ph.D.
      scientists working long hours to characterize many
      hydrino chemical compounds and to perfect his latest
      experiments with hydrino plasma. I witnessed
      first-hand his gas-phase vapor cell generating
      substantial heat energy. (It was being operated by
      two Japanese scientists working for BLP.) There is
      definitely *something* releasing energy in that cell.

      I took some photos, although their content really
      isn't different from what's already available or
      forthcoming on the web.

      The facilities at BLP are impressive: 53,000 square
      feet of total space, with over half of that in a
      "clean room" environment. Every lab is loaded with
      high-tech, expensive equipment. In talking with Randy
      and one of his scientists, I confirmed that his new
      digs far outstrip his old, 5000 square foot facility
      in Malvern, PA. There, the scientists were literally
      elbowing each other to get their work done. They
      moved to the Cranbury, NJ facility in January 1999.
      This shows just how recently things have really gotten
      rolling for BLP.

      Anyone who thinks this is just a big hoax is deceiving
      himself. Such accusations simply do not stand up to
      the facts. For this to be a hoax, every employee at
      BLP and every independent lab that has tested BLP's
      technology would have to engage in a conspiracy to
      defraud.

      You have to ask yourself an honest question: Which is
      more likely?

      1. Every employee at BLP and every independent lab
      that has tested BLP's technology is engaging in a
      conspiracy to defraud.

      2. There is something new and previously unknown about
      the hydrogen atom that has been uncovered via BLP's
      theories and experiments.

      My vote is for answer #2.

      Some people argue that Randy's theory is wrong even if
      his results match his equations. Well, the same can
      be said for current QM theory. If we're going to
      criticize any theory as "fundamentally wrong but still
      a useful toolbox of equations", we should apply that
      standard consistently and fairly across all
      boundaries.

      Well, that's just a brief overview of my impressions.
      Some exciting things are happening at BLP. My strong
      suspicion is that Randy's theory and technology will
      change our world for the better.

      Luke Setzer



--
Svein Utne
M.Soft Object Oriented Software AS
www.msoft.no



--------------146AC6A5D047778AEE09585A--

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst
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	Dear Folks,

	What is the best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst generators?

	I have seen Edmund... I am not in love with the offering and
price.

	Thanks,

			John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 23 13:29:31 2000
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Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:26:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst
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>	Dear Folks,
>
>	What is the best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst generators?
>
>	I have seen Edmund... I am not in love with the offering and
>price.
>
>	Thanks,

***{Sargent-Welch sells a 400,000 volt Vandegraaff generator for $528.99.
Catalog number is WL1913B. Their 200,000 volt version is $151 (cat.
WL1914). They also have a Wilmshurst (cat. WL1912M) which lists for $315.
(See www.sargentwelch.com.) --MJ}***
>
>			John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 23 13:55:56 2000
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Message-Id: <200005232053.QAA16939 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: SSE Symposium next month
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:55:22 -0400
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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>The Society for Scientific Exploration is holding its annual conference in
>a few weeks (June 8-11) in Canada (London, Ont, about 1.5 hrs drive from
>Toronto.)
>
>I'm going.  Will any vortexians be there?


Bill, I'll be there! Looking forward to meeting you.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 23 13:56:10 2000
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Subject: RE: NEW Cold Fusion Book=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=8b_EXCESS_HEAT?=
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:55:32 -0400
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Mark,


>Gene,
>
>Just want to let you and Jed and others on vortex know how fine a book you
>have published.

Thank you! But to be exact, IE was just the group that gave the force and 
advice to Charles Beaudette on how to go about getting his book into 
print.  We are the exclusive distributor and marketer of the book.  As I 
commented in my MIT Class of 1969 notes in Technology Review, now there 
are TWO MIT graduates with positive cold fusion books -- Mallove (MIT'69, 
Fire from Ice 1991) and Beaudette (MIT '52, Excess Heat 2000)..
>
>Beaudette has done a truly magnificent piece of work!
>
>I hope it gets widely reviewed.

We'll be trying our best. It has gone to lots of publications.
>
>Anyone on this list who has doubts that excess heat is real should do
>themselves a favor and read this excellent, in-depth study of the story to
>date.

I am writing this from ICCF8 in Lerici, Italy. Anyone hwo has doubts 
about CF and is not at this conference ought to hold their piece.  
McKubre's He-4 AND He-3 results are spectacular and completely 
definitive.  A major figure from the DoE establishment was here (I shall 
NOT name him on this forum!) --told me personally that the McKubee 
results were very compelling.  I think he was sort of stunned. He's a 
good man.
>
>Even more surprising in a work of this nature is the author's fine sense of
>humor.
>
>Mark Goldes
>Chairman & CEO
>Magnetic Power Inc.

I may try to squeeze in some notes to Vortex on the conference before the 
next issue of IE in July, but don't hold me to it.

All best,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 23 22:09:21 2000
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <24.5673283.265cbd7b aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:07:07 EDT
Subject: Re: best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst
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Dans un courrier daté du 23/05/00 21:38:54 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), 
herman antioch-college.edu a écrit :

>   Dear Folks,
>  
>   What is the best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst generators?
>  
>   I have seen Edmund... I am not in love with the offering and
>  price.
>  
>   Thanks,
>  
>           John

Hi John,

You may try to look at : http://www.amazing1.com/voltage2.htm

Best Regards


Jean-Louis

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 23 22:31:17 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: I'm visiting the US
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:27:53 PDT
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David Jonsson asks;

>Im going from Sweden to US this summer. Can I visit anyone out there? I'll 
>be staying in the NY and Salt Lake City area but I can travel further if 
>needed. I suppose I can even do some work.

>I am interested in anti-gravity, vortex motion, magnetization of water and
>non relativity ideas.

Hi David,

Some of my best support comes from Sweden.  My work is all flat space, 
non-relativity based, and about whirlpool motion.  In my theory there is no 
tappable energy in the vortex, there is no anti-gravity.  There is, 
Whirlpower and gravity powered relative density displacement.

You, or any would be welcome to visit.  A Whirlpower Team member has been 
talking setting up a Whirlpower University of sorts.  Where people from all 
over the world can come and work on Whirlpower related ideas.

I am currently in Central California.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 23 23:14:37 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Who is Steve Floreck
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:12:47 PDT
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John Schnurer writes:

>	Who is Steve Floreck?
>
>	Please

Who is John Schunrer?

Actually I don't care.

In this world it is not what you know, it is who you know.  Everything is 
based on clout, prestige, and money.  If Steve were nobody, he is still most 
welcome to be on the Whirlpower Declaration.  As is anyone.

Even, nobody me.  :)

"our passage from a 0 to a 1 civilization is probably about something so 
simple is it just nobody ever thought about it before."
Dr. Kaku

David Dennard
Nobody
http://www.whirlpower.cc

"The only flat space based theory will real test proposals."
"The announced proof of flat space disposed of all thermodynamic/ 
electromagnetic theory, by the facts."


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 07:36:07 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
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***{This post from spf may be of interest relative to Scott's attempted
Mizuno replication. --MJ}***

******************************************
From: rheal blanchard <eal fizzion.org>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Power calculations & RF
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 17:53:14 -0400


This participation is to support the essential role of radio frequency
presence in any LENT experiment,  and to sensibilize experimenters to
the importance of the geometry of any cell.

The FIZZION process concept that I have developed over the past 13 years
and our experimental works support that any Low Energy Nuclear
Transformation (LENT) requires the presence of electromagnetic radiation
(EMR) to flip hydrogen ions or electrons to produce virtual neutrons
(neutrons*)

A fast spinning object cannot gravitationnally collapse. Relative spins
of protons and electrons are either parallel or anti-parallel. Upon spin
reversal, a relative null spin condition is present, allowing the
gravitationnal and opposite electric charge attraction to be fully
effective.

Neutrons* can then be captured by any nearby nuclei, and thanks to the
Internal Conversion phenomena enhanced in a polarized environment,
energetic electrons can be produced instead of the usual emission of
three gamma rays per capture event.

Non coherent substraction between infrared radiation produced by heating
processes, or ambiant light can produced the photons required, but
direct coherent injection of RF frequencies and microwaves is much more
efficients. (1420, 320 or 1516 Mc to flip an electron nearby a protium,
a deuterium or tritium ions with Electron Paramagnetic Resonance (EPR)
techniques, or a few tens of Mc to flip protons using NMR techniques.)

Any LENT reactor must be seen as an electromagnetic resonant structure,
more or less as the coupling of two or more antenna structure elements
supporting the concentration of photons of the frequencies required to
induce spin reversals. Structures that support circular polarization of
the photons are more efficient to induce spin reversals instead of spin
increases.

T L Clarke a écrit :
>
> Steve Lajoie wrote:
>
> > T L Clarke <tclarke ist.ucf.edu> wrote in message
> > news:3906FE87.4CFFE33 ist.ucf.edu...
> > > Dieter Britz wrote:
> > >
> > > > If it's not just Storms you are thinking of, I point out that F&P did
> > > > use what any normal electrochemist would use: a power op amp. When
> > > > these go faulty, you know it. They are also cheaper and better; a
> > > > "power supply" is the sort of thing an electrical engineer would think
> > > > of, not electrochemists. Nothing wrong with engineers, of course, but
> > > > they are not chemists, and vice versa.
> > >
> > > If I may jump in, the use of op-amps raises the issue of parasitic
> > oscillation.
> > > Suppose an op-amp (or power supply with op-amp like chacteristics)
> > > when operated with the cables and loading of a CF cell produced parasitic
> > > oscillations at 100 MHz.  Further suppose the ammeter does not respond
> > > to 100 MHz.  Since usenet is not friendly to equations, I'll just use
>some
> > > numbers to illustrate.
> >
> > A power op amp that can operate at 100 MHz? :-)
>
> A frequency picked for illustration.  And yes, a power op-amp could
> generate a parasitic oscillation at 100 MHz.  What is required is that the
> output device have greater than unity gain at the parasitic frequency.
> Many power FETs and transistors have gain cutoff frequencies in the
> hundreds  (even gigahertz range).
> The op-amp overall, because of frequency compensation, will not
> have greater than unity gain at 100 MHz, but this does not imply
> that the output devices have no gain at such frequencies.
>
> >  This was a constant current power supply. It's output was most likely
> > right off the silicon. Where's the resonance circuit, and how is there
> > feedback?
>
> The resonant circuit would be the cables connecting to the cell.
> A .45 meter cable with propagation speed of 0.6c would be a quarter
> wavelength at 100 Mhz.  A signal propagating down the cable from
> the output device (on silicon chip or discrete) would reflect from
> the impedance discontinuity at the cell (unless the cell is matched to
> 50 ohm coax/75 ohm twinlead/whatever which is unlikely) and return
> 1/2 cycle later at 100 MHz.  That is the signal will be 180 degrees out
> of phase.  Then the drain/source or collector/base capacitance can
> feed the reflected signal to the device input, the device amplifies
> it with another 180 degree phase shift and the conditions are met
> for oscillation.  [If the equipment is really old, the feedback would
> be from plate to grid.]
>
> > > Say the DC output of the opamp/supply is 5 volts and the parasitic
> > oscillation is
> > > 1 volt.
> >
> > A constant voltage power supply has a big fat capacitor across it's
> > outputs to filter out low frequency ripple. Your RF is going to go to
> > ground.

To have a real ground effect, it is a common practice in RF works to add
a small ceramic capacitance (0.01MF) across any electrolytic
capacitance to avoid shortcircuiting, because of resistive losses when
RF is involved.
>
> If the power supply has such a capacitor, then you are right.  But
> an op-amp output has no such capacitor.  A constant current supply
> has no such capacitor.  Even some constant voltage supplies will
> not have such a capacitor as they are intended to be programmable,
> they are essentially large amplifiers.
>
> > [snip]
> > > Yes, there are a lot of assumptions here.
>
> >
> > I know. One is the confusion of an amplifier with a power supply.
>
> No confusion.  Dieter Britz said the P&F used an amplifier as a power supply.
> He says this is common practice among electrochemists.
>
> > I think this is a most whimsical rebuttal to Storms cold fusion work,
> > and I do not take it seriously. Sorry, I think you're going off the subject
> > of Cold fusion to bad electronic design.
>
> By the way I got Storms "How to Produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect"
> and he doesn't discuss the power supply used that I can spot.
>
> For me this is sort of an "Aha!" . Power that sneaks in unnoticed through
> parasitic oscillations in the power supply strikes me as an explanation for
> most of the reports of anomalous heat.  The sometimes it works, sometimes
> it does characteristic of CF experiments is consistent with the sometimes
> it parasitically oscillates, sometimes it doesn't depending on the exact
>cable
> configuration, the exact electrical cell impedance of marginal amplifier
> circuits (including those in active power supplies).

So, to improve reproducibility, great care must be taken to decouple the
power supplies from the resonating structures of a cell. The use of
broad band RF chokes is mandatory, and a reliable RF stimulation source.

As a first step, it is much more simpler to adjust the impedance of a
cell to maintain the natural resonance required to induce flipping, by
playing on the geometry of the element structure and the overall size of
the cell, than to play on the chemical and metallurgical structure of
the electrode material. That approach should ease the way leading to
scale up models for commercial applications.

Over the last two years, about every four months we had access a couple
of weeks each time, to a Vector Network Analyser (VNA) to tune our
cells, to stimulate electron spin reversals leading to the production of
new elements, and to observe online absorption peaks due to nuclear
resonance stimulation.

Copper and nickel plated copper or brass cathodes were used in 0,5M
K2CO3 electrolytes by using distilled natural water. Nuclear pumping
phenomena are readely observed. Graphical evidences produced during
experimentation support the following observation: A thousand time
increases in the content of Deuterium is often observed, peak of natural
presence of K40 (1286 Mc) grow up by around a thousand time factor, and
the apparition and grow-up peaks related to K42 (1255 Mc)a hundred time
more significant than the peaks of K40. K42 is a non natural radioactive
isotope of potassium. It is our opinion that it occurs upon a neutron*
capture by the natural K41.

>
> Storm says that only Pd without microcracks is suitable for excess heat
> production.  This is consistent with the excess heat producing Pd having
> some specific electrical characteristics.  Maybe there is even some
> resonant effect in a D loaded, non-microcracked Pd electrode that adds
> to parastic oscillation.
>


> Has anyone ever put a wideband scope across the electrodes in a CF cell?

The VNA used covered kilocycles up to 6000 Mc.

If we use other salts instead of K2CO3, no more K40 or K42 are present
and other very different peaks growup.

>
> [Begin speculation
> Parasitic oscillation can even explain the production of heat in a Japanese
> CF cell days after the cell was turned off [I forget the names involved,
>sorry]
> If the power supply was turned down to zero current [or voltage?] but not
> actually turned off, then the parasitic oscillation could have continued,
> producing heat in the cell even when the DC power reads zero.
> end speculation.]
>

Even if the speculation above is of some interest, we think that the
production of non stable isotope upon neutron capture, like the presence
of K42 can explain heat production phenomena after shutdown often seen
by other experimenters. Up to now, we were not setup to measure heat
production by our cell. We have however observed that in some badly
tuned cells more or less dead when fed with one milliwatt of RF power,
their cranking to 30 milliwatts of RF power was starting nuclear pumping
effects and the development of peaks related to nuclear transmutation.

Our actual evidences lead us to conclude that the stimulation of K42
performs a REMEDIATION process leading to the annihilation of that peak
when the protium stimulation is not maintained.

> Again has anyone ever put a wideband scope across the electrodes in a CF
>cell?
>
> Tom Clarke

When tuning electrodes involved in a Cathodic Glow Discharge
Electrolysis (CGDE) with modified version of the Mizuno type, like using
non pitting electrode material, we were able to reproduce experiments
giving 1.5 to 1 overunity energy production in a configuration using
around 150 watts input, without taking into account the energy inducing
the melting of metallic clips holding the electrodes outside the cells.
The usage of analog and digital meter was originally giving us a 3 to 1
figure. However, the usage of a sophisticated computer data logging
system with 10,000 samples per second gave us the 1.5 to 1 figure.

Summary information about the FIZZION process and about our projects can
be requested with my email address. Please specify reasons of your
interest and nature of works.

Rhéal Blanchard eng.-phys.
independent LENT researcher
******************************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 10:42:15 2000
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From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: The End of Whirlpower
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:39:41 -0700
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It is true that I am nobody.  I can't even get my name spelled right.

I have however recently discovered a related form of energy I am calling the
high-density theory vortex (all of the next-generation TV's are using this
technology already).  This selective "mind-shield" renders the theory
totally impervious to critical thinking, yet allows satire to penetrate into
the theory's core principles unrecognized.  It can form a kind of resonant
sphere around one's head such that ideas bounce back and forth inside it.
Given sufficient time, these incoherent ideas amplify and create pressure,
swelling the head of the theoretician to gargantuan proportions and causing
him to emit radiation in the form of duck-billed platitudes.  

It is my contention that this is the true physical principle underlying
whirlpower, and that further research and discussion be confined to this
area.

-Steve

"You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." 
-Abraham Lincoln

PS Note that Lincoln didn't consider the case of "some of the people all of
the time".

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	Is this some type of semi permeable membrane or barrier?
	How would you describe the permeabilities and properties of same?

On Wed, 24 May 2000, Florek, Steven wrote:

> It is true that I am nobody.  I can't even get my name spelled right.
> 
> I have however recently discovered a related form of energy I am calling the
> high-density theory vortex (all of the next-generation TV's are using this
> technology already).  This selective "mind-shield" renders the theory
> totally impervious to critical thinking, yet allows satire to penetrate into
> the theory's core principles unrecognized.  It can form a kind of resonant
> sphere around one's head such that ideas bounce back and forth inside it.
> Given sufficient time, these incoherent ideas amplify and create pressure,
> swelling the head of the theoretician to gargantuan proportions and causing
> him to emit radiation in the form of duck-billed platitudes.  
> 
> It is my contention that this is the true physical principle underlying
> whirlpower, and that further research and discussion be confined to this
> area.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> "You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some
> of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." 
> -Abraham Lincoln
> 
> PS Note that Lincoln didn't consider the case of "some of the people all of
> the time".
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 12:16:15 2000
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Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:11:13 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: The End of Whirlpower
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At 10:39 AM 5/24/00 -0700, you wrote:

>It is my contention that this is the true physical principle underlying
>whirlpower, and that further research and discussion be confined to this
>area.
>
>-Steve
>

Like I said before, the satire section in Dennard's book. Do I get credit
for being the first to recognize it?

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 12:42:56 2000
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Rather, it's like a diode.

Positive ideas pass across the junction, charging the
capacious head. Negative ideas are blocked, leading
to a net positive charge.

Eventually dielectric breakdown occurs, causing a massive
discharge of postings and rants. Unfortunately, there
is no induction so the discharge never does swing negative.

I estimate the period of oscillation to be about 3-6 months.

K.

"jeans and a t-shirt"





-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:15 PM
To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com'
Subject: Re: The End of Whirlpower



	Is this some type of semi permeable membrane or barrier?
	How would you describe the permeabilities and properties of same?

On Wed, 24 May 2000, Florek, Steven wrote:

> It is true that I am nobody.  I can't even get my name spelled right.
>
> I have however recently discovered a related form of energy I am calling
the
> high-density theory vortex (all of the next-generation TV's are using this
> technology already).  This selective "mind-shield" renders the theory
> totally impervious to critical thinking, yet allows satire to penetrate
into
> the theory's core principles unrecognized.  It can form a kind of resonant
> sphere around one's head such that ideas bounce back and forth inside it.
> Given sufficient time, these incoherent ideas amplify and create pressure,
> swelling the head of the theoretician to gargantuan proportions and
causing
> him to emit radiation in the form of duck-billed platitudes.
>
> It is my contention that this is the true physical principle underlying
> whirlpower, and that further research and discussion be confined to this
> area.
>
> -Steve
>
> "You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people
some
> of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
> -Abraham Lincoln
>
> PS Note that Lincoln didn't consider the case of "some of the people all
of
> the time".
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 13:01:57 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Steve writes:

>I have however recently discovered a related form of energy I am calling 
>the high-density theory vortex (all of the next-generation TV's are using 
>this technology already).  This selective "mind-shield" renders the theory 
>totally impervious to critical thinking, yet allows satire to penetrate 
>into the theory's core principles unrecognized.  It can form a kind of 
>resonant sphere around one's head such that ideas bounce back and forth 
>inside it. Given sufficient time, these incoherent ideas amplify and create 
>pressure, swelling the head of the theoretician to gargantuan proportions 
>and causing him to emit radiation in the form of duck-billed platitudes.  
>It is my contention that this is the true physical principle underlying 
>whirlpower, and that further research and discussion be confined to this 
>area.

Hi Steve,

Amazing.  All vortex theory before Whirlpower was based on the high density 
tornado type vortex.  Many have built and tried to tap the vortex itself.

There is also a spiritual movement based on the vortex, and based on Chaos 
Theory as a blend of science and spirituality.  These folks claim to BE God. 
  I spent a lot of time on one list of these so call New Age Gods.  They 
hate me and Whirlpower.  They don't believe in God and seem to want to take 
over the world, and promote behavior unacceptable to God's Law.

Now, the way I am reading this is you too see the relative movement of what 
is called the anti-christ, the 666, the downward spiral of the vortex on the 
verticle axis; to Whirlpower, which relates to the horizontal axis gravity 
driven action of the wobble.  That the end of Whirlpower is near due to the 
mindwashing going on.

Or, you no longer see the beauty and simplicity of Whirlpower.  That's what 
Lynn seems to think.

Very interested in your next comments.  If you really do know the story, 
maybe you will be the one to stand and say, RESTORE!

David Dennard
"in sackcloth and ashes"
http://www.whirlpower.cc


________________________________________________________________________
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps fidalgo.net>
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Hi Steve,

I'm afraid satire is lost on some list members, ROFL :-)
The inability to understand humor is a sure sign of the presence of a
high-density theory vortex :-)

Regards,
Fred

Steve said:

> I have however recently discovered a related form of energy I am
> calling the
> high-density theory vortex

David said:

>Amazing.  All vortex theory before Whirlpower was based on the high
density
tornado type vortex.  Many have built and tried to tap the vortex itself.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 14:45:02 2000
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IF, all this "humor" is such, who will be laughing when Whirlpower is 
proven.  :)

I think Steve double satired you all with a boomerang.

Why any thinking person cannot see it is only common sense to build a 
whirlpool if one has never been built is all recorded history must be due to 
some kind of brainwash going on.

Anything to keep that oil burning and keep the rich cats that pollute our 
planet fat and sassy.  That's what is happenin'.  IMHO

David

>From: "Fred Epps" <fepps fidalgo.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: The End of Whirlpower
>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:17:00 -0700
>
>Hi Steve,
>
>I'm afraid satire is lost on some list members, ROFL :-)
>The inability to understand humor is a sure sign of the presence of a
>high-density theory vortex :-)
>
>Regards,
>Fred
>
>Steve said:
>
> > I have however recently discovered a related form of energy I am
> > calling the
> > high-density theory vortex
>
>David said:
>
> >Amazing.  All vortex theory before Whirlpower was based on the high
>density
>tornado type vortex.  Many have built and tried to tap the vortex itself.
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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John wrote:
>	Is this some type of semi permeable membrane or barrier?
>	How would you describe the permeabilities and properties of same?

It appears to be semi-permeable--Keith Nagel's diode analogy is somewhat
useful, if insincere because his poor soul has been tainted with darkness.
The unidirectional asymmetry is where the energy comes from--it behaves like
a classical blackbody with infinite energy for you quantum believers.  At
this point other properties are the stuff of imagination.

Lynn wrote:
>Like I said before, the satire section in Dennard's book. Do I get credit
>for being the first to recognize it?

Well, I believe it wound up in the "independent experimental verifications"
section.  We'll give you half-credit for recognizing that it was destined to
become a part of the declaration.

David wrote:
>Now, the way I am reading this is you too see the relative movement of what

>is called the anti-christ, the 666, the downward spiral of the vortex on
the 
>verticle axis; to Whirlpower, which relates to the horizontal axis gravity 
>driven action of the wobble.  That the end of Whirlpower is near due to the

>mindwashing going on.
>Or, you no longer see the beauty and simplicity of Whirlpower.  That's what

>Lynn seems to think.
>Very interested in your next comments.  If you really do know the story, 
>maybe you will be the one to stand and say, RESTORE!

Indeed--you have caught on to the subtle undertones of my posts.  However, I
fear that the readers of this list have all gone "down the drain" so to
speak--their hearts have grown far too hard for enlightenment--as evidenced
by the alternating periods of silence and flames.  I suggest we might find a
more open-minded audience in the Usenet group sci.physics.fusion--they
welcome new ideas and if you can make the case to them as persuasively as
you have here it could be the beginning of an upward spiral!  No sense in
wasting any more energy here--concentrate on where we can make a difference!

-Steve

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To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: The End of Whirlpower
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:52:04 -0700
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David wrote:
>I think Steve double satired you all with a boomerang.

Exactly right.  How cynical is the world when the truth is perceived as
satire?

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 20:40:53 2000
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From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst
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>	What is the best source for Van de Graff and Wimhurst generators?

I found one van de graff generator on ebay, current price is $75, 3 days left
to bid... didn't find any wimhursts, but I'm sure they show up from time to
time...

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=338637878

>A 200,000 VOLT VAN DE GRAFF GENERATOR BY MORRIS & LEE, INC. #10-065. IT
>STANDS 18"HIGH AND IS 7"IN DIAMETER. BEING SOLD AS SHOWN, ALL SALES FINAL.
>BUYER PAYS SHIPPING. MONEY ORDERS SHIP ASAP, CHECKS DELAY SHIPMENT 10 DAYS
>FOR BANK CLEARANCE.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 21:44:51 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:37:45 +1000
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 24 May 2000 09:32:24 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]
>Non coherent substraction between infrared radiation produced by heating
>processes, or ambiant light can produced the photons required, but
>direct coherent injection of RF frequencies and microwaves is much more
>efficients. (1420, 320 or 1516 Mc to flip an electron nearby a protium,
>a deuterium or tritium ions with Electron Paramagnetic Resonance (EPR)
>techniques, or a few tens of Mc to flip protons using NMR techniques.)

300 MHz is also approximately the frequency used in the early British patent
(763062), that purported to artificially induce nuclear decay, with
consequent power production.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 24 22:41:05 2000
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To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, freenrg <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0005107

Possibility of Control of the Gravitational Mass by means of Extra-Low Frequencies Radiation

From: "Fran De Aquino" <deaquino uema.br>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:39:29 GMT   (31kb)


Author: Fran De Aquino (Maranhao State University, Brazil)
Comments: 6 pages(2 figures,1 table), PDF

 According to the weak form of Einstein's general relativity equivalence principle, the gravitational
 and inertial masses are equivalent. However recent calculations (gr-qc/9910036) have revealed
 that they are correlated by an adimensional factor, which is equal to one in absence of radiation
 only. We have built an experimental system to check this unexpected theoretical result. It verifies
 the effects of the extra-low frequency (ELF) radiation on the gravitational mass of a body. We
 show that there is a direct correlation between the radiation absorbed by the body and its
 gravitational mass, independently of the inertial mass. This has fundamental consequences to
 Unified Field Theory and Quantum Cosmology. 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 03:41:04 2000
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:34:42 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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Hamdi pointed out a new paper reporting remarkable results
(unbelievable actually).  Thanks Hamdi for your good service
as watchdog for interesting papers.

>http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0005107
>Possibility of Control of the Gravitational Mass by means of Extra-Low
>Frequencies Radiation
>
>From: "Fran De Aquino" <deaquino uema.br>
>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:39:29 GMT   (31kb)
>
>Author: Fran De Aquino (Maranhao State University, Brazil)
>Comments: 6 pages(2 figures,1 table), PDF
>
>According to the weak form of Einstein's general relativity
>...
>We have built an experimental system to check this unexpected
>theoretical result. It verifies the effects of the extra-low
>frequency (ELF) radiation on the gravitational mass of a body.
>...

I find his whole paper unbelievable.  I wonder if anyone has
communicated with De Aquino and found him to be bona fide?

He seems to make some bad mistakes also.  Take a look at his
eqn 5 and its plot in fig 2.  They don't agree at all in
value or even shape!  He has one odd point (at the solution
to his eqn 5 becoming zero) which is far out of line with
the rest and he quotes experimental and theoretical values
of 130.01 and 129.83 respectively.  However there is no
place for such an odd point from his equation. He has
emphasised the agreement between measurement and theory
at this point - which makes it a rather obvious lie.  I'd
also like to know how he measures 130 amps to 5 significant
figures (without it drifting rapidly as wires etc warm up)!

My guess is that the whole thing is a prank by some undergrad
physics student or maybe an experiment in social science to
find out how gullible people can be!  Thank goodness for
peer review on "real" publications!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 04:41:20 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 04:39:21 PDT
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John, I think Fran is for real, just based on the wrong foundation, as far 
are his assumptions go.  Asking the wrong questions will give the wrong 
answers.

But, I predict his work will lead scientists to start asking the right 
questions, question basic fundamental wrong assumptions, and eventually 
realize, gravity is "The Origin of Energy".

Like Dr. Hawking states in Discover Magazine, "Garbage", to those who say 
science already understands the basic fundamentals.

Like Dr. Rubin said on ABC NEWS Science Special, "Mapping the Cosmos":
"scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs".

It won't help Fran's clout much, but he even asked my opinion of his work.  
I told him, I am not a scientist so I can't really comment on the exact 
specifications, nor do I understand all of it; but common sense tells me he 
is pointing in the right direction.  Once we understand gravity we will 
understand energy.  It cannot be taken as a given or as just a backdrop for 
science.  It is an intergral part of the full circle system of nature.

And like the latest data from the Chandra X-Ray telescope points to in the 
article, Discover Magazine, April 2000, "In The Beginning, All Was 
Blackness", that mass came first, not an explosion, not light.  And now we 
know space is flat, not some void curved finite universe after all.  Nothing 
satirish about it.

The Paradigm Shift is almost here, and gravity powered ZPE will be 
explaination of The Energy Revoltion, all told by the story of the bubble, 
of how gravity causes evaporation and the speed of light, "The Pearl of 
Wisdom".

"It's the fizz in the Physics"

David Dennard
The Pearl of Wisdom
http://www.whirlpower.cc



>From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
>Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:34:42 +0800
>
>Hamdi pointed out a new paper reporting remarkable results
>(unbelievable actually).  Thanks Hamdi for your good service
>as watchdog for interesting papers.
>
> >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0005107
> >Possibility of Control of the Gravitational Mass by means of Extra-Low
> >Frequencies Radiation
> >
> >From: "Fran De Aquino" <deaquino uema.br>
> >Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:39:29 GMT   (31kb)
> >
> >Author: Fran De Aquino (Maranhao State University, Brazil)
> >Comments: 6 pages(2 figures,1 table), PDF
> >
> >According to the weak form of Einstein's general relativity
> >...
> >We have built an experimental system to check this unexpected
> >theoretical result. It verifies the effects of the extra-low
> >frequency (ELF) radiation on the gravitational mass of a body.
> >...
>
>I find his whole paper unbelievable.  I wonder if anyone has
>communicated with De Aquino and found him to be bona fide?
>
>He seems to make some bad mistakes also.  Take a look at his
>eqn 5 and its plot in fig 2.  They don't agree at all in
>value or even shape!  He has one odd point (at the solution
>to his eqn 5 becoming zero) which is far out of line with
>the rest and he quotes experimental and theoretical values
>of 130.01 and 129.83 respectively.  However there is no
>place for such an odd point from his equation. He has
>emphasised the agreement between measurement and theory
>at this point - which makes it a rather obvious lie.  I'd
>also like to know how he measures 130 amps to 5 significant
>figures (without it drifting rapidly as wires etc warm up)!
>
>My guess is that the whole thing is a prank by some undergrad
>physics student or maybe an experiment in social science to
>find out how gullible people can be!  Thank goodness for
>peer review on "real" publications!
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 05:13:25 2000
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Dear All,

Have been reading vortex for a while and am amazed at the consistent quality 
of the postings.

The debate between Ed Storms and Jed Rothwell, the sheer tenacity of David 
Dennard in the face of practically everybody and everything, John Schnurer's 
phlegmatic patience, the subtleties of that consummate ironist Steven 
Florek, Lynn's forbearance until the apparent dénouement - all of these make 
for a good start to the day.

It did occur to me some time ago that John, David and Steven might be the 
same person - but of course, one would have to be completely deranged to 
believe that far-fetched and unscientific theory.

I do look forward to Steve's next sally and David's riposte - don't 
disappoint us!


ATB,


Jacques Baudoin



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 05:54:07 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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At 06:34 PM 5/25/00 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:

>Hamdi pointed out a new paper reporting remarkable results
>(unbelievable actually).  Thanks Hamdi for your good service
>as watchdog for interesting papers.

Yes, thanks Hamdi!

>He seems to make some bad mistakes also.  Take a look at his
>eqn 5 and its plot in fig 2.  They don't agree at all in
>value or even shape!

The overall shape is correct...but the lone point is certainly does not
satisfy  eqn 5.  Curiously, if you drop the second 1, and change the + to a
-, you do get at least a blow up point at 122.8 amps...<g>  I think I'll
ask Aquino about this little problem.

>My guess is that the whole thing is a prank by some undergrad
>physics student or maybe an experiment in social science to
>find out how gullible people can be!

Have you seen Jean-Louis Naudin's efforts at replicating this experiment!?

http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/systemg/index.html

apparently he is poised to learn whether his new embodiment of Aquino's
idea actually works.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 06:00:26 2000
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:55:08 -0500
To: dequino uema.br
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: your new paper
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Greetings Dr. Aquino,

I am reading your new paper, "Possibility of Control of the Gravitational
Mass By Means of Extra-Low Frequencies Radiation".  

I am confused by equation 5 and the statement just below it, "Equation
above shows that the graviational masses of the atoms of the annealed pure
iron toroid can be nullified for Io = 129.83A."

An examination of equation 5 does not reveal such behavior around 130A.  In
that reqion of I, it is a monotonic, smoothly decreasing function as I
increases.

Is there a mistake in equation 5?

Thanks,




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 10:11:21 2000
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:07:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
Resent-Message-ID: <"xp3Bq3.0.tF6.TuLBv" mx1>
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>Hamdi pointed out a new paper reporting remarkable results
>(unbelievable actually).  Thanks Hamdi for your good service
>as watchdog for interesting papers.
>
>>http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0005107
>>Possibility of Control of the Gravitational Mass by means of Extra-Low
>>Frequencies Radiation
>>
>>From: "Fran De Aquino" <deaquino uema.br>
>>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:39:29 GMT   (31kb)
>>
>>Author: Fran De Aquino (Maranhao State University, Brazil)
>>Comments: 6 pages(2 figures,1 table), PDF
>>
>>According to the weak form of Einstein's general relativity
>>...
>>We have built an experimental system to check this unexpected
>>theoretical result. It verifies the effects of the extra-low
>>frequency (ELF) radiation on the gravitational mass of a body.
>>...
>
>I find his whole paper unbelievable.  I wonder if anyone has
>communicated with De Aquino and found him to be bona fide?
>
>He seems to make some bad mistakes also.  Take a look at his
>eqn 5 and its plot in fig 2.  They don't agree at all in
>value or even shape!  He has one odd point (at the solution
>to his eqn 5 becoming zero) which is far out of line with
>the rest and he quotes experimental and theoretical values
>of 130.01 and 129.83 respectively.  However there is no
>place for such an odd point from his equation. He has
>emphasised the agreement between measurement and theory
>at this point - which makes it a rather obvious lie.  I'd
>also like to know how he measures 130 amps to 5 significant
>figures (without it drifting rapidly as wires etc warm up)!
>
>My guess is that the whole thing is a prank by some undergrad
>physics student or maybe an experiment in social science to
>find out how gullible people can be!  Thank goodness for
>peer review on "real" publications!

***{I cannot say whether it is a valid result, but it is most definitely
serious science, not a "prank." For details of an ongoing replication
attempt, check out the J.L. Naudin website. I consider Jean-Louis to be one
of the most important researchers in the area of anomalous science, and I
check his site on a daily basis to see if new results have appeared. If the
rest of you did likewise, you would have encountered Fran Aquino's results
literally weeks ago, and would long since have become convinced that it is
real science. --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 10:32:24 2000
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Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:43:43 -0400
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Mitch writes:
>***{I cannot say whether it is a valid result, but it is most definitely
>serious science, not a "prank." For details of an ongoing replication
>attempt, check out the J.L. Naudin website. I consider Jean-Louis to be one
>of the most important researchers in the area of anomalous science, and I
>check his site on a daily basis to see if new results have appeared. If the
>rest of you did likewise, you would have encountered Fran Aquino's results
>literally weeks ago, and would long since have become convinced that it is
>real science. --Mitchell Jones}***

Bravo!

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:15:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Replicate?   from Fran De Aq
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	Dear vo.,
	Is there a measure of weight lost in the replication by Jean
Naudin?

	How much lighter did the replication become?
	

On Thu, 25 May 2000, Scott Little wrote:

> At 06:34 PM 5/25/00 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:
> 
> >Hamdi pointed out a new paper reporting remarkable results
> >(unbelievable actually).  Thanks Hamdi for your good service
> >as watchdog for interesting papers.
> 
> Yes, thanks Hamdi!
> 
> >He seems to make some bad mistakes also.  Take a look at his
> >eqn 5 and its plot in fig 2.  They don't agree at all in
> >value or even shape!
> 
> The overall shape is correct...but the lone point is certainly does not
> satisfy  eqn 5.  Curiously, if you drop the second 1, and change the + to a
> -, you do get at least a blow up point at 122.8 amps...<g>  I think I'll
> ask Aquino about this little problem.
> 
> >My guess is that the whole thing is a prank by some undergrad
> >physics student or maybe an experiment in social science to
> >find out how gullible people can be!
> 
> Have you seen Jean-Louis Naudin's efforts at replicating this experiment!?
> 
> http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/systemg/index.html
> 
> apparently he is poised to learn whether his new embodiment of Aquino's
> idea actually works.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 11:18:53 2000
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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:10:23 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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 <392CBAFD.1A2EB67 verisoft.com.tr>
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Scott Little wrote:
>
>John Winterflood wrote:
>>He seems to make some bad mistakes also.  Take a look at his
>>eqn 5 and its plot in fig 2.  They don't agree at all in
>>value or even shape!
>
>The overall shape is correct...but the lone point is certainly
>does not satisfy  eqn 5...

I disagree!  If you plot his equation 5 using
ma=34.85, you get a curve *very roughly* the shape of
his figure 2.  However it starts out very horizontal (unlike
his which starts to fall immediately) and then it has a
considerably squarer corner than his almost parabolically
rounded one.

Also Io=129.827 is the solution to the equation when ma=0.
So the curve from eq5 should curl down and pass smoothly
through zero at that current.  So the height is vastly
wrong for all but the first point and the odd 4th point.

If you try using ma=34.85-5.8 and add 5.8 to equation 5
so that the curve starts at 34.85 and passes through his
accurately measured odd point 130.01 Amps and 5.80kg,
then it is just as bad a fit.

>...Curiously, if you drop the second 1,
>and change the + to a -, you do get at least a blow up point
>at 122.8 amps...<g>

Yes but the shape is vastly different - no resemblance at
all (my try even starts off negative - ie wants to lift off
without any current!), and the point is a pole not a zero!

Scott wrote to De Aquino :
>I am confused by equation 5 and the statement just below it,
>"Equation above shows that the graviational masses of the
>atoms of the annealed pure iron toroid can be nullified for
>Io = 129.83A."
>
>An examination of equation 5 does not reveal such behavior
>around 130A.  In that reqion of I, it is a monotonic,
>smoothly decreasing function as I increases.

De Aquino's statement here is correct.  It should pass
through zero (or maybe a residual 5.8kg) at 129.83A, but
his graph and tabulated points (complete with four and
five digits of precision!) are vastly wrong.

>>My guess is that the whole thing is a prank by some undergrad
>>physics student or maybe an experiment in social science to
>>find out how gullible people can be!
>
>Have you seen Jean-Louis Naudin's efforts at replicating
>this experiment!?

Yes, poor Jean-Louis.  I hate to see people's precious effort
wasted by idiot pranksters.  I started off intending to be
polite but the more I read of the paper, the more suspicious
the whole thing sounded until I became convinced that it was
total garbage.  Then I just felt angry.

I can't believe anyone could make genuine mistakes like this
in a paper.  It seems to me more like it is a deliberate
mistake to say "hey wake up you idiots, haven't I made it
as obvious as daylight that this whole thing is a joke".

I think there are numerous other faults you could pick if
you wanted to read it through carefully.  Having decided
it is a prank, I was not prepared to checkout and document
other points.  If others felt like wasting their time on
him they could check out how it is possible for his
"antenna" to "radiate" ~10Kw at 60Hz.  Is it possible to
have a 11.5kVA *single phase* transformer?  Is 12 turns
a reasonable number for 220Volt primary?  Can you draw
50amps from any single phase outlet in the USA (15amps
is our limit before it has to be 3 phase 440V).  He has
a turns ratio of 6 to 1 which is a reasonable match to
his voltage ratio but is a vast mismatch with his impedance
ratio (impedance ratio goes as turns ratio squared and
his impedance ratio is 4200 instead of 36!  - maybe he
means resistance instead of impedance?)

In any case, what is he giving his transformer specs for
anyway.  I wouldn't expect to find that level of detail
in a normal paper.  Why not just tell us what model and
manufacturer it is or do you suppose he made it himself.
Actually that is likely - a commercial manufacturer would
more likely use flat copper strip than 1/2 copper rod,
and would have better insulation than a coat of paint.
And that is just considering the transformer.  What
about his "annealed pure iron" sheath of thickness 0.6mm.
Where do you get that from of a size to just fit inside
the steel tube?  What sort of steel is it anyway?  How
did he get it inside and bend it and join it up?  How
did he get the wires in ?  All these points are much
more important than the transformer specs.

What about temperature rise?  10Kw should make something
get warm, or if it is being radiated, then how safe
is it to be standing right beside it taking measurements?
Is a dynamometer a reasonable instrument to use for
weighing something?  What is its accuracy?  How did he
measure currents of 300 or so amps so accurately?  How
did he vary the current?  It seems he managed to obtain
*exact* 50 amp steps to 5 digits (ie 300.00amps!).  If
he could vary the current so accurately, why not explore
the strange behavour around the 130.01amp mark by
obtaining a few more points?  Maybe the whole transformer
was a variac?  But a variac with only 12 turns!!!  The
whole thing stinks of fish the more you dig into it.

The "agreement" between theory and experimental values in
table 1 are far far far too good for an experiment of this
type.  It just has to be cooked.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 12:25:09 2000
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:17:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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>Scott Little wrote:
>>
>>John Winterflood wrote:
>>>He seems to make some bad mistakes also.  Take a look at his
>>>eqn 5 and its plot in fig 2.  They don't agree at all in
>>>value or even shape!
>>
>>The overall shape is correct...but the lone point is certainly
>>does not satisfy  eqn 5...
>
>I disagree!  If you plot his equation 5 using
>ma=34.85, you get a curve *very roughly* the shape of
>his figure 2.  However it starts out very horizontal (unlike
>his which starts to fall immediately) and then it has a
>considerably squarer corner than his almost parabolically
>rounded one.
>
>Also Io=129.827 is the solution to the equation when ma=0.
>So the curve from eq5 should curl down and pass smoothly
>through zero at that current.  So the height is vastly
>wrong for all but the first point and the odd 4th point.
>
>If you try using ma=34.85-5.8 and add 5.8 to equation 5
>so that the curve starts at 34.85 and passes through his
>accurately measured odd point 130.01 Amps and 5.80kg,
>then it is just as bad a fit.
>
>>...Curiously, if you drop the second 1,
>>and change the + to a -, you do get at least a blow up point
>>at 122.8 amps...<g>
>
>Yes but the shape is vastly different - no resemblance at
>all (my try even starts off negative - ie wants to lift off
>without any current!), and the point is a pole not a zero!
>
>Scott wrote to De Aquino :
>>I am confused by equation 5 and the statement just below it,
>>"Equation above shows that the graviational masses of the
>>atoms of the annealed pure iron toroid can be nullified for
>>Io = 129.83A."
>>
>>An examination of equation 5 does not reveal such behavior
>>around 130A.  In that reqion of I, it is a monotonic,
>>smoothly decreasing function as I increases.
>
>De Aquino's statement here is correct.  It should pass
>through zero (or maybe a residual 5.8kg) at 129.83A, but
>his graph and tabulated points (complete with four and
>five digits of precision!) are vastly wrong.
>
>>>My guess is that the whole thing is a prank by some undergrad
>>>physics student or maybe an experiment in social science to
>>>find out how gullible people can be!
>>
>>Have you seen Jean-Louis Naudin's efforts at replicating
>>this experiment!?
>
>Yes, poor Jean-Louis.  I hate to see people's precious effort
>wasted by idiot pranksters.  I started off intending to be
>polite but the more I read of the paper, the more suspicious
>the whole thing sounded until I became convinced that it was
>total garbage.  Then I just felt angry.
>
>I can't believe anyone could make genuine mistakes like this
>in a paper.  It seems to me more like it is a deliberate
>mistake to say "hey wake up you idiots, haven't I made it
>as obvious as daylight that this whole thing is a joke".
>
>I think there are numerous other faults you could pick if
>you wanted to read it through carefully.  Having decided
>it is a prank, I was not prepared to checkout and document
>other points.  If others felt like wasting their time on
>him they could check out how it is possible for his
>"antenna" to "radiate" ~10Kw at 60Hz.  Is it possible to
>have a 11.5kVA *single phase* transformer?  Is 12 turns
>a reasonable number for 220Volt primary?  Can you draw
>50amps from any single phase outlet in the USA (15amps
>is our limit before it has to be 3 phase 440V).  He has
>a turns ratio of 6 to 1 which is a reasonable match to
>his voltage ratio but is a vast mismatch with his impedance
>ratio (impedance ratio goes as turns ratio squared and
>his impedance ratio is 4200 instead of 36!  - maybe he
>means resistance instead of impedance?)
>
>In any case, what is he giving his transformer specs for
>anyway.  I wouldn't expect to find that level of detail
>in a normal paper.  Why not just tell us what model and
>manufacturer it is or do you suppose he made it himself.
>Actually that is likely - a commercial manufacturer would
>more likely use flat copper strip than 1/2 copper rod,
>and would have better insulation than a coat of paint.
>And that is just considering the transformer.  What
>about his "annealed pure iron" sheath of thickness 0.6mm.
>Where do you get that from of a size to just fit inside
>the steel tube?  What sort of steel is it anyway?  How
>did he get it inside and bend it and join it up?  How
>did he get the wires in ?  All these points are much
>more important than the transformer specs.
>
>What about temperature rise?  10Kw should make something
>get warm, or if it is being radiated, then how safe
>is it to be standing right beside it taking measurements?
>Is a dynamometer a reasonable instrument to use for
>weighing something?  What is its accuracy?  How did he
>measure currents of 300 or so amps so accurately?  How
>did he vary the current?  It seems he managed to obtain
>*exact* 50 amp steps to 5 digits (ie 300.00amps!).  If
>he could vary the current so accurately, why not explore
>the strange behavour around the 130.01amp mark by
>obtaining a few more points?  Maybe the whole transformer
>was a variac?  But a variac with only 12 turns!!!  The
>whole thing stinks of fish the more you dig into it.
>
>The "agreement" between theory and experimental values in
>table 1 are far far far too good for an experiment of this
>type.  It just has to be cooked.

***{Hi John. I'm glad to see that you are still full of vinegar! I guess
that will teach me to not shake your tree unless I have time for a fight!
:-)

Anyway, since I am too busy right now to slog through your various
arguments, above, I am going to content myself with pointing out that if I
am mistaken in treating Aquino seriously, I am in good company: the website
where Hamdi found the Aquino paper is
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0005107, which is America's prestigious Los
Alamos Nuclear Lab!

Best wishes.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 12:32:27 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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At 02:10 AM 5/26/00 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:

>I disagree!  If you plot his equation 5 using
>ma=34.85, you get a curve *very roughly* the shape of
>his figure 2.  However it starts out very horizontal (unlike
>his which starts to fall immediately) and then it has a
>considerably squarer corner than his almost parabolically
>rounded one.
>
>Also Io=129.827 is the solution to the equation when ma=0.
>So the curve from eq5 should curl down and pass smoothly
>through zero at that current.  So the height is vastly
>wrong for all but the first point and the odd 4th point.

Yeah, you're right, John.  I was just too casual in my construction and
examination of the plot.  Oh well, we'll see if Aquino sets me
straight...then I can challenge him on the large discrepancy between Fig 2
and eqn 5.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 14:50:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:44:03 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> 
> Have you seen Jean-Louis Naudin's efforts at replicating this experiment!?
> 
> http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/systemg/index.html
> 
> apparently he is poised to learn whether his new embodiment of Aquino's
> idea actually works.
> 

Hi Scott and All,

Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory. He interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a closed loop. This issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's papers. My interpretation is a closed loop because this is an high curren

t circuit and the operating frequency is indeed very low and also the operating voltage, so we can assume capacitive couplings does not carry too much currents. This is an inductive circuit in principle, a low impedance, high current circuit or antenna.  

The given diagram suggest also the closed circuit because there is no note about the endings of wires inside the loop. Jean-Louis failed to drive the antenna with the given parameters. I dont know  had ever tried the closed circuit version.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 16:23:31 2000
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> Greetings Dr. Aquino,
> 
> I am reading your new paper, "Possibility of Control of the Gravitational
> Mass By Means of Extra-Low Frequencies Radiation".
> 
> I am confused by equation 5 and the statement just below it, "Equation
> above shows that the graviational masses of the atoms of the annealed pure
> iron toroid can be nullified for Io = 129.83A."

Yes, this is confusing. I did not found an explanation or cause the error if there is. Anyway values of Table.1 (except 5.8Kg case) can be calculated as 

  Mg = Mfix + Ma * f(I)

Mfix = 33.15 Kg is the mass which is not subject to weight reduction.

Ma = 1.7 Kg is affected mass.

At Io=129.83 f(129.83)=0 and the Mg would be 33.15 Kg not 5.8 Kg.

It would be useful to give all initial weight of the components of the Syetem-G.

I am looking to other documents from De Aquino for this but not found yet.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 18:39:20 2000
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:34:39 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Electrostatic Machines (was: best source for Van de Graff and
 Wimhurst)
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speaking of electrostatics, this page is a goldmine,

http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html

it is loaded with links to pictures, drawings and schematics
of electrostatic machines, many built by the author,
and many kinds that I've never heard of...

(there is nothing for sale here, just lots of good info)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu May 25 21:27:43 2000
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:26:07 -0700
Subject: Tornado's, plasmas, and Antigravity
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Just an speculation to throw out.

If some forms of plasmas and electrical discharges can alter gravity like
in the Hutchinson effect, maybe a tornado is really powered by an
electro-gravity effect as a result of the electrical activity inside.

Tim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 07:14:08 2000
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 <v04011700b551957378f0 [207.8.127.99]>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:11:11 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
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>On Wed, 24 May 2000 09:32:24 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>[snip]
>>Non coherent substraction between infrared radiation produced by heating
>>processes, or ambiant light can produced the photons required, but
>>direct coherent injection of RF frequencies and microwaves is much more
>>efficients. (1420, 320 or 1516 Mc to flip an electron nearby a protium,
>>a deuterium or tritium ions with Electron Paramagnetic Resonance (EPR)
>>techniques, or a few tens of Mc to flip protons using NMR techniques.)

***{Actually, I didn't write the above. I merely passed it on from a post
that appeared on sci.physics.fusion. The actual author was rheal blanchard
<eal fizzion.org>. The reason I regarded the post as noteworthy was that it
confirmed a suspicion I have expressed here before: that some sort of
radiative stimulation is essential to getting a CF cell to go into "over
unity" mode. This suspicion arises out of my protoneutron theory, according
to which a hydrogen atom with an electron orbiting below the ground state
is wildly unstable, but can occur if, for example, a proton meets an
electron at a location where there isn't enough space for the electron to
occupy the ground state orbit. In the resulting neutral and unstable
"protoneutron" configuration, if the particle can somehow acquire .7875
MeV, it will become a neutron, thereby opening up the potential for various
nuclear reactions that could be called "cold fusion." Hence, to acquire a
modicum of stability, a protoneutron needs a source of energy. My own
thinking on the subject, in the past, focused on the need to deliver the
energy in larger chunks than RF can provide, but since we are essentially
stabbing in the dark here anyway, I guess we should be open to the
possibility of acquisition via RF as well. If that were, indeed, the
mechanism, then it would explain the replication difficulties that Scott
has experienced. It could very well be the case that, somewhere in Mizuno's
lab, he has a source of RF noise that happens to be on the right frequency,
perhaps inducing a happy resonance that "pumps" energy into protoneutrons,
thereby changing them into neutrons; and it could also be the case that
Scott's lab lacks such a source. Result: Mizuno succeeds with a cathode and
passes it over to Scott, who then fails! (It's real sad! :-) --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>300 MHz is also approximately the frequency used in the early British patent
>(763062), that purported to artificially induce nuclear decay, with
>consequent power production.

***{Is there a link by which I could access this patent? --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:09:24 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, 24 May 2000 09:32:24 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>Non coherent substraction between infrared radiation produced by heating
> >>processes, or ambiant light can produced the photons required, but
> >>direct coherent injection of RF frequencies and microwaves is much more
> >>efficients. (1420, 320 or 1516 Mc to flip an electron nearby a protium,
> >>a deuterium or tritium ions with Electron Paramagnetic Resonance (EPR)
> >>techniques, or a few tens of Mc to flip protons using NMR techniques.)
> 
> ***{Actually, I didn't write the above. I merely passed it on from a post
> that appeared on sci.physics.fusion. The actual author was rheal blanchard
> <eal fizzion.org>. The reason I regarded the post as noteworthy was that it
> confirmed a suspicion I have expressed here before: that some sort of
> radiative stimulation is essential to getting a CF cell to go into "over
> unity" mode. This suspicion arises out of my protoneutron theory, according
> to which a hydrogen atom with an electron orbiting below the ground state
> is wildly unstable, but can occur if, for example, a proton meets an
> electron at a location where there isn't enough space for the electron to
> occupy the ground state orbit. In the resulting neutral and unstable
> "protoneutron" configuration, if the particle can somehow acquire .7875
> MeV, it will become a neutron, thereby opening up the potential for various
> nuclear reactions that could be called "cold fusion." Hence, to acquire a
> modicum of stability, a protoneutron needs a source of energy. My own
> thinking on the subject, in the past, focused on the need to deliver the
> energy in larger chunks than RF can provide, but since we are essentially
> stabbing in the dark here anyway, I guess we should be open to the
> possibility of acquisition via RF as well. If that were, indeed, the
> mechanism, then it would explain the replication difficulties that Scott
> has experienced. It could very well be the case that, somewhere in Mizuno's
> lab, he has a source of RF noise that happens to be on the right frequency,
> perhaps inducing a happy resonance that "pumps" energy into protoneutrons,
> thereby changing them into neutrons; and it could also be the case that
> Scott's lab lacks such a source. Result: Mizuno succeeds with a cathode and
> passes it over to Scott, who then fails! (It's real sad! :-) --Mitchell
> Jones}***
> 
> >
> >300 MHz is also approximately the frequency used in the early British patent
> >(763062), that purported to artificially induce nuclear decay, with
> >consequent power production.

I'm not sure about Japan; but, here in the US, the band from
328.6 to 335.4 MHz is used for aeronautical navigation.  I wonder
if Mizuno is near one of these (usually powerful) transmitter
sites?!?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 08:41:27 2000
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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:31:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Aircrash Safety
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***{The aviation cartel, with the able assistance of our fascist
government, continues to slaughter its customers. Those who fly, or who
have friends or loved ones who fly--i.e., all who read this--are advised to
read the following and check out the aircrash website. This is important
stuff. --MJ}***

>
> To read the following with links and pictures, go to:
> http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/n20.htm
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Aviation Week and Space Technology / David M. North (Editor-in-Chief)
> collude with industry in suppression of truth?
>
> In the editorial of Aviation Week and Space Technology of May 15, 2000,
> David M. North, the Editor-in-Chief, argues that:
>
> "There has to be a balance in aircraft crash investigations between
> safety requirements and needs and justified criminal or disciplinary
> actions."
>
> While this is probably the most cryptic sentence of Mr. North's
> editorial, it represents the underlying murkiness of his point.
> George Orwell said:
>
> "You can read people's intentions by their use of the language: If the
> words are so long and fuzzy that we cannot UNDERSTAND what is being said,
> or if we can surmise that they are saying nothing at all, we can be
> fairly sure that the speaker is trying to SWINDLE us".
>
>
> What caught our eye in this editorial is precisely that Mr. North isn't
> clear, to the point of contradicting himself; he is hiding his true
> motives, and he is, in effect, proposing the worn euphemism, uttered by
> industry and some editors that "safety is complicated". Sure, anything
> can be complicated when corruption is involved - you have to determine
> who is compromised and who is not.
>
> Read this sentence again carefully: "There has to be a balance in
> aircraft crash investigations between safety requirements and needs" -
> and NEEDS? What needs? Mr. North never explains. We believe the needs he
> writes about are the needs of the industry to continue covering up the
> dangerous, fundamental flaws in their new, but obsolete, jet transports.
> Or, is it the needs of the corrupt to protect their backsides?
>
> In any event, Mr. North is fuzzy, he is in contradiction with the
> principles of justice and murky. Let us illustrate by examining his words
> a little more closely: At the beginning of his editorial, Mr. North talks
> about the mission of the NTSB investigations:
>
> "In essence, the goal of NTSB investigations is to identify problems so
> they won't happen again. Laying blame is not the point. It may, of
> course, be a by-product of any accident investigation, but that is not
> the board's objective."
>
> We can all agree that laying blame for the purpose of laying blame isn't
> constructive, but blame DOES serve a purpose. Blame allows the victims
> and their families to attempt to recover damages from those responsible,
> and for those responsible to incur a proper penalty for their wrongdoing!
> Isn't that one of the principles of justice - to render every man his
> due? Mr. North seems to argue that blame is a bad thing. In our
> experiences, only dishonest, evildoers feel that they ought not to be
> blamed for their actions. An honorable man, if he has strayed so far as
> to injure another, will see the error of his ways and repent, attempt to
> correct his behavior so as to prevent it from occurring again and attempt
> to make reparations to the person/people so injured.
>
> Mr. North says the reason why blame should not be laid and prosecutions
> should be delayed, as NTSB Chairman James Hall has requested of the U.S.
> Attorney General's office (obstruction of justice?), is that people -
> whom Mr. North fails to identify - won't be afraid to talk to accident
> investigators. If you've done something wrong like killing hundreds or a
> thousand or more people, aren't you going to be afraid to talk to
> accident investigators? You know you're going to have to pay for your
> misdeeds. Which planet does Mr. North live on?
>
>
> Further, anyone familiar with the aircrash web-site and its contents
> knows that Mr. Hall is fully aware of the much superior Burnelli airframe
> technology, which is devoid of the fundamental flaws inherent in the
> conventional jets. Also, he knows the obvious advantages for preventing
> mass-homicides, which occur on a regular basis every time a conventional
> jet self-destructs on contact with anything more solid than air.
> According to NTSB's goal, which is "to identify problems so they won't
> happen again", Chairman Hall's inaction, is clearly a violation of his duty.
> Why doesn't Mr. North carry out his responsibilities by pointing out the
> NTSB's failure to do its job? Isn't that what magazines and newspapers
> are for?
>
> Maybe the NTSBs true intent is not saving lives but just reducing the
> accident rate, so the industry can continue to produce costly,
> inefficient, high-death-rate and outdated technology to maximize profits
> at the expense of the public. We believe Mr. North is attempting to muddy
> the waters, so that people won't look at accidents and the lack of
> ensuing prosecutions as anything out of the ordinary. That, of course,
> would make Mr. North an accessory and a co-conspirator in what is clearly
> a racketeering operation which extorts payment from the public in
> hard-earned cash/labor and in blood (see www.aircrash.org ).
>
> Aircraft accidents cause an immense amount of damage to society and
> especially to the families and friends of those who die in such violent
> circumstances. Any such willful act deserves to be punished and
> restitution made to society (in the form of a change in behavior) and to
> the survivors in any way that is appropriate to fulfill the mandate of
> true justice. If such is not done, then justice is dead, for each man
> will not have been rendered his due - a few will have benefited at the
> expense of the many, as has been occurring for the last seven decades.
>
> Please write to the U.S. Attorney General (or the Attorney General of
> your state) and request the prosecution of those in the aviation
> industry, those in government agencies, in civil aviation organizations,
> the publishing industry and those in tax free foundations, like the
> Flight Safety Foundation and the Cornell Safety Center, who participate
> in this continuing suppression of technology which could save so many
> lives around the globe. We've provided an unprecedented amount of proof
> to substantiate our allegations - see www.aircrash.org.
>
> Also, if time permits, a letter or email to Mr. North (north mh.com),
> asking him why Aviation Week & Space Technology, as the leading industry
> / political / technical aviation magazine, has failed to mention Burnelli
> since 1948, leaving the industry and the public in the dark?
>
> THE PENALTY GOOD MEN PA Y FO R INDIFFERENCE TO PUBLIC AFFAIRS IS TO BE
> RULED BY EVIL MEN. --PLATO
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Why is the Survival of plane-crash victims called "miraculous"?
>
>               Is there an alternative to miracles?
>
>                   ----- www.aircrash.org. -----
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 08:43:07 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Tornado's
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:40:07 CDT
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This just occured to me, and I was wondering if someone might be able to 
explain it properly...

Being from Kansas, I see my fair share of summer storms and tornado's, and 
just for kicks and possible insight, does anyone know why the ambient light 
turns a sickly shade of green or yellow during/preceding such events??

ie what atmospheric phenomena can change the optical characteristics of the 
sky to that degree??

Thanx
Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 08:44:08 2000
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References: <v04011700b551957378f0 [207.8.127.99]>	
 <v04011700b551957378f0 [207.8.127.99]>
 <v04011700b55430ff4d50 [207.8.127.130]>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:40:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
Resent-Message-ID: <"DjuRC.0.R53.4jfBv" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 24 May 2000 09:32:24 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>> >[snip]
>> >>Non coherent substraction between infrared radiation produced by heating
>> >>processes, or ambiant light can produced the photons required, but
>> >>direct coherent injection of RF frequencies and microwaves is much more
>> >>efficients. (1420, 320 or 1516 Mc to flip an electron nearby a protium,
>> >>a deuterium or tritium ions with Electron Paramagnetic Resonance (EPR)
>> >>techniques, or a few tens of Mc to flip protons using NMR techniques.)
>>
>> ***{Actually, I didn't write the above. I merely passed it on from a post
>> that appeared on sci.physics.fusion. The actual author was rheal blanchard
>> <eal fizzion.org>. The reason I regarded the post as noteworthy was that it
>> confirmed a suspicion I have expressed here before: that some sort of
>> radiative stimulation is essential to getting a CF cell to go into "over
>> unity" mode. This suspicion arises out of my protoneutron theory, according
>> to which a hydrogen atom with an electron orbiting below the ground state
>> is wildly unstable, but can occur if, for example, a proton meets an
>> electron at a location where there isn't enough space for the electron to
>> occupy the ground state orbit. In the resulting neutral and unstable
>> "protoneutron" configuration, if the particle can somehow acquire .7875
>> MeV, it will become a neutron, thereby opening up the potential for various
>> nuclear reactions that could be called "cold fusion." Hence, to acquire a
>> modicum of stability, a protoneutron needs a source of energy. My own
>> thinking on the subject, in the past, focused on the need to deliver the
>> energy in larger chunks than RF can provide, but since we are essentially
>> stabbing in the dark here anyway, I guess we should be open to the
>> possibility of acquisition via RF as well. If that were, indeed, the
>> mechanism, then it would explain the replication difficulties that Scott
>> has experienced. It could very well be the case that, somewhere in Mizuno's
>> lab, he has a source of RF noise that happens to be on the right frequency,
>> perhaps inducing a happy resonance that "pumps" energy into protoneutrons,
>> thereby changing them into neutrons; and it could also be the case that
>> Scott's lab lacks such a source. Result: Mizuno succeeds with a cathode and
>> passes it over to Scott, who then fails! (It's real sad! :-) --Mitchell
>> Jones}***
>>
>> >
>> >300 MHz is also approximately the frequency used in the early British
>>patent
>> >(763062), that purported to artificially induce nuclear decay, with
>> >consequent power production.
>
>I'm not sure about Japan; but, here in the US, the band from
>328.6 to 335.4 MHz is used for aeronautical navigation.  I wonder
>if Mizuno is near one of these (usually powerful) transmitter
>sites?!?

***{A worthwhile point for investigation. Mizuno is at Hokkaido University,
in Sapporo, Japan. Does anybody know what kind of navigational beacons are
in use there, and at what frequencies? --MJ}***

>
>Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 09:13:10 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:05:54 CDT
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The details of the 'system-G' being unclear, it still seems obvious to me 
from the text and schematics that the 1/2 dia rod is the antenna coil, not 
part of the transformer.  Personally I think if deAquino had a friend 
oriented along engineering lines, we could get a better description of the 
apparatus with more pertinant details.

Merlyn


>From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:10:23 +0800
>...
>In any case, what is he giving his transformer specs for
>anyway.  I wouldn't expect to find that level of detail
>in a normal paper.  Why not just tell us what model and
>manufacturer it is or do you suppose he made it himself.
>Actually that is likely - a commercial manufacturer would
>more likely use flat copper strip than 1/2 copper rod,
>and would have better insulation than a coat of paint.
>And that is just considering the transformer.  What
>about his "annealed pure iron" sheath of thickness 0.6mm.
>Where do you get that from of a size to just fit inside
>the steel tube?  What sort of steel is it anyway?  How
>did he get it inside and bend it and join it up?  How
>did he get the wires in ?  All these points are much
>more important than the transformer specs.

________________________________________________________________________
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Tornado's
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>This just occured to me, and I was wondering if someone might be able to
>explain it properly...
>
>Being from Kansas, I see my fair share of summer storms and tornado's, and
>just for kicks and possible insight, does anyone know why the ambient light
>turns a sickly shade of green or yellow during/preceding such events??

***{My guess is that it is some sort of ionization effect that is
associated with supercells (i.e., with the cumulonimbus cells that spawn
tornados). In any case, I can confirm your observation from personal
experience: I grew up in West Texas, and when big thunderclouds were
overhead and the sky turned green, it was time to head for the cellar! :-)
--MJ}***

>
>ie what atmospheric phenomena can change the optical characteristics of the
>sky to that degree??
>
>Thanx
>Merlyn
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 11:28:04 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tornado's
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:25:21 PDT
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Merlyn,

PBS announced on one of their tornado specials this past year, quote,  "that 
almost everything that science thought to be true about the vortex has been 
shown to be wrong, and that science needed to go back to the drawing board 
and start all over."

If you have followed any of my posts, my reseach shows man has never even 
built a whirlpool and tested it in a scientific manner in all recorded 
history!  And people laugh at me on this list for saying it is most 
important that one should be built.

Pretty strange planet we live on, no doubt of that.  :)

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Tornado's
>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:18:22 -0500
>
> >This just occured to me, and I was wondering if someone might be able to
> >explain it properly...
> >
> >Being from Kansas, I see my fair share of summer storms and tornado's, 
>and
> >just for kicks and possible insight, does anyone know why the ambient 
>light
> >turns a sickly shade of green or yellow during/preceding such events??
>
>***{My guess is that it is some sort of ionization effect that is
>associated with supercells (i.e., with the cumulonimbus cells that spawn
>tornados). In any case, I can confirm your observation from personal
>experience: I grew up in West Texas, and when big thunderclouds were
>overhead and the sky turned green, it was time to head for the cellar! :-)
>--MJ}***
>
> >
> >ie what atmospheric phenomena can change the optical characteristics of 
>the
> >sky to that degree??
> >
> >Thanx
> >Merlyn
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 11:38:00 2000
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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:35:02 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
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At 9:11 AM -0500 5/26/00, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>It could very well be the case that, somewhere in Mizuno's
>lab, he has a source of RF noise that happens to be on the right frequency,
>perhaps inducing a happy resonance that "pumps" energy into protoneutrons,

Maybe John Hutchison's lab would be a good place to do CF 
experiments. Even if you don't get OU out of a cell, you might get to 
see it float to the ceiling occasionally. <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 12:15:12 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
Message-ID: <d.54bbf1f.266026a5 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:12:37 EDT
Subject: Beaudette's EXCESS HEAT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Charles Beaudette's new book, EXCESS HEAT, arrived yesterday.  Fast 
turnaround time on the part of Infinite Energy Press, the exclusive 
distributors.

The book is 365 pages long.  There are only two paragraphs about the work of 
Mills, plus the briefest mention in two footnotes.  His work doesn't appear 
at all in the list of "Anomalous Power Citations" on pp. 323-325.

What happened?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 12:53:59 2000
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:51:53 EDT
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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Dans un courrier daté du 26/05/00 18:08:24 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), 
merlyn_x hotmail.com a écrit :

> The details of the 'system-G' being unclear, it still seems obvious to me 
>  from the text and schematics that the 1/2 dia rod is the antenna coil, not 
>  part of the transformer.  Personally I think if deAquino had a friend 
>  oriented along engineering lines, we could get a better description of the 
>  apparatus with more pertinant details.
>  
>  Merlyn
>  

For more details abou the System-G you may also look at : 

 http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/systemg/html/sysgexp.htm

Regards

Jean-Louis Naudin

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
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Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I'm not sure about Japan; but, here in the US, the band from
> 328.6 to 335.4 MHz is used for aeronautical navigation.  I wonder
> if Mizuno is near one of these (usually powerful) transmitter
> sites?!?
-
Another possibility is that the very high power inpulse noise
present in Mizuno type experiments could be providing the
high frequency excitation. The lead length resonances between
the experiment and the power supply could be transforming
the impulse energy into relatively narrow frequency bands in
the high frequency region. 
-
Perhaps Scott needs to tune his ringing to the proper frequency.
This might not actually be too hard to accomplish if we can
believe that 320 MHz is actually  one of the desired frequencies.
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 18:44:42 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:39:14 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 26 May 2000 09:11:11 -0500:
(See, I changed the header :).
[snip]
>***{Actually, I didn't write the above. I merely passed it on from a post
>that appeared on sci.physics.fusion. The actual author was rheal blanchard
><eal fizzion.org>. 

I already knew you didn't write the actual text, you just posted the
message. My reply header is generated automatically.
[snip]
>has experienced. It could very well be the case that, somewhere in Mizuno's
>lab, he has a source of RF noise that happens to be on the right frequency,
>perhaps inducing a happy resonance that "pumps" energy into protoneutrons,
>thereby changing them into neutrons; and it could also be the case that
>Scott's lab lacks such a source. Result: Mizuno succeeds with a cathode and
>passes it over to Scott, who then fails! (It's real sad! :-) --Mitchell
>Jones}***

Note that isn't the theory proposed in the message you quoted.

>
>>
>>300 MHz is also approximately the frequency used in the early British patent
>>(763062), that purported to artificially induce nuclear decay, with
>>consequent power production.
>
>***{Is there a link by which I could access this patent? --MJ}***
[snip]
Sure: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=GB763062&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD .

PS I have also written to the author of the original message, and am
awaiting a reply (perhaps in vain).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 18:57:39 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:56:17 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  George Holz's message of Fri, 26 May 2000 15:56:22 -0400:
[snip]
>Perhaps Scott needs to tune his ringing to the proper frequency.
>This might not actually be too hard to accomplish if we can
>believe that 320 MHz is actually  one of the desired frequencies.
[snip]
I think this may indeed be an NMR type phenomenon, so the actual optimal
frequencies may depend on the local magnetic field strength. This in turn
could depend on the magnetic stirrer etc.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri May 26 21:28:44 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <3a.5aab906.2660a819 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:24:57 EDT
Subject: H2K experiment on temporary hold
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All,

I should have posted sooner but due to family commitments I
have been out of town and unable to read mail until a few days ago.
I had to put the experiment on hold but I will be starting up again
as soon as I can. Just in time for the +100 degree weather too.
I will run as long as the lab temperature stays below 90 degrees.
Apologies to all for not updating.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 27 05:56:50 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells


> In reply to  George Holz's message of Fri, 26 May 2000 15:56:22 -0400:
> [snip]
> >Perhaps Scott needs to tune his ringing to the proper frequency.
> >This might not actually be too hard to accomplish if we can
> >believe that 320 MHz is actually  one of the desired frequencies.
> [snip]
> I think this may indeed be an NMR type phenomenon, so the actual optimal
> frequencies may depend on the local magnetic field strength. This in turn
> could depend on the magnetic stirrer etc.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
> From Peter van Noorden
pjvannrd knmg.nl

27 may 2000  14:17 The Netherlands

Hello,

In 1989 I tried to replicate the Fleischmann and Pons type experiment,
thereby using a palladium kathode ( 10*10*2 mm) and  a platinum anode.
During an extensive period of electrolysis of heavy water + LIOD (3 weeks
continously at 3 volts .5 Amps) I did neutroncount measuring.
There where no neutrons above the background.
Then I shortcut the platinum anode and palladium cathode to create sparks
under heavy water ( peaks of 10 amps where reached).
This had also no effect on the neutroncounts.
The following step was the introduction of a strong magnetic field created
by a solenoid ( +/- 1 Tesla) during under heavy water sparking.
What struck me was the formation of tiny spherical light emitting structures
which circulated above the heavy water surface ( like ball lightnings).
Also in a few occasions the scaler of the neutron counter was giving a high
countrate.
During this event , the heavy water solution boiled dry very fast.
Because the effect was not completely reproducible  and due to the fact that
the neutroncounter which I was using was sensible for noise signals
 electromagnetic noise, moisture etc) I doubted my neutron measurements.
Because my premier focus was on radiation measurments I did not concentrate
on the boiling dry effect and the formation of the " ball lightnings"
Now ten years after these results I think that the formation of these tiny
light emitting objects have something to do with resonance phenomenon and
could be related to heat forming reactions.
As for now I will try to replicate these old results.

Peter

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 27 09:46:16 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: H2K experiment on temporary hold
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>All,
>
>I should have posted sooner but due to family commitments I
>have been out of town and unable to read mail until a few days ago.
>I had to put the experiment on hold but I will be starting up again
>as soon as I can. Just in time for the +100 degree weather too.
>I will run as long as the lab temperature stays below 90 degrees.

***{As I recall, you are running these experiments in your garage. Why not
purchase a window air conditioning unit and install it? (If you don't have
a window in your garage, saw a hole in the wall!) --MJ}***

>Apologies to all for not updating.
>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram
>  Las Vegas Nevada
>  702-254-2122
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 27 09:46:17 2000
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Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:47:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 3:56 AM
>Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
>
>
>> In reply to  George Holz's message of Fri, 26 May 2000 15:56:22 -0400:
>> [snip]
>> >Perhaps Scott needs to tune his ringing to the proper frequency.
>> >This might not actually be too hard to accomplish if we can
>> >believe that 320 MHz is actually  one of the desired frequencies.
>> [snip]
>> I think this may indeed be an NMR type phenomenon, so the actual optimal
>> frequencies may depend on the local magnetic field strength. This in turn
>> could depend on the magnetic stirrer etc.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>>
>> From Peter van Noorden
>pjvannrd knmg.nl
>
>27 may 2000  14:17 The Netherlands
>
>Hello,
>
>In 1989 I tried to replicate the Fleischmann and Pons type experiment,
>thereby using a palladium kathode ( 10*10*2 mm) and  a platinum anode.
>During an extensive period of electrolysis of heavy water + LIOD (3 weeks
>continously at 3 volts .5 Amps) I did neutroncount measuring.
>There where no neutrons above the background.
>Then I shortcut the platinum anode and palladium cathode to create sparks
>under heavy water ( peaks of 10 amps where reached).
>This had also no effect on the neutroncounts.
>The following step was the introduction of a strong magnetic field created
>by a solenoid ( +/- 1 Tesla) during under heavy water sparking.
>What struck me was the formation of tiny spherical light emitting structures
>which circulated above the heavy water surface ( like ball lightnings).
>Also in a few occasions the scaler of the neutron counter was giving a high
>countrate.
>During this event , the heavy water solution boiled dry very fast.
>Because the effect was not completely reproducible  and due to the fact that
>the neutroncounter which I was using was sensible for noise signals
> electromagnetic noise, moisture etc) I doubted my neutron measurements.
>Because my premier focus was on radiation measurments I did not concentrate
>on the boiling dry effect and the formation of the " ball lightnings"
>Now ten years after these results I think that the formation of these tiny
>light emitting objects have something to do with resonance phenomenon and
>could be related to heat forming reactions.
>As for now I will try to replicate these old results.

***{Did you do calorimetry in your earlier experiments? If not, be sure to
do it this time, so you can determine whether the neutron readings are
associated with "over unity" numbers. If they are, that will massively
strengthen the result, since it is unlikely that the same situation would
fool the calorimeter and the neutron counter at the same time. --MJ}***

>
>Peter

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 27 19:09:51 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RF Stimulation of Electrolytic CF Cells
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:05:57 +1000
Organization: Improving
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014001bfc7da$bb90f320$a2a8f1c3 vannoorden>
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In reply to  Peter van Noorden's message of Sat, 27 May 2000 14:54:13 +0200:
[snip]
>Because my premier focus was on radiation measurments I did not concentrate
>on the boiling dry effect and the formation of the " ball lightnings"
>Now ten years after these results I think that the formation of these tiny
>light emitting objects have something to do with resonance phenomenon and
>could be related to heat forming reactions.
>As for now I will try to replicate these old results.
>
>Peter
You may find the theories of Edward Lewis (plasmoids -
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946/ELEWIS19.html), Paul Koloc
(larger plasmoids - no web page I could find), and Charles Cagle (
http://www.singtech.com/index.html ) of interest in this regard. 


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat May 27 23:04:52 2000
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps fidalgo.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: The End of Whirlpower
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:57:29 -0700
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Hi Steve,

How clever of you. Now that you have finished your clever comments, perhaps
you can reveal the test results that indicate why we should take all this
malarky seriously.

Oh, you don't have any? That's what I thought.

Regards,
Fred

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 29 04:40:56 2000
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From: "Mike C" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <d.54bbf1f.266026a5 aol.com>
Subject: Re: Beaudette's EXCESS HEAT
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:21:52 -0400
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Tom wrote:

> Charles Beaudette's new book, EXCESS HEAT, arrived yesterday.  Fast
> turnaround time on the part of Infinite Energy Press, the exclusive
> distributors.
>
> The book is 365 pages long.  There are only two paragraphs about the work
of
> Mills, plus the briefest mention in two footnotes.  His work doesn't
appear
> at all in the list of "Anomalous Power Citations" on pp. 323-325.
>
> What happened?
>
> Tom Stolper
-------------------->

Baudette's most excellent book specifically limits itself to the discussion
of the Fleischmann-Pons effect and the shameful behavior of the physics
community with respect to it. In essence, Baudette makes excruciatingly
clear that the physics *skeptics* never looked at the excess heat data,
never entered a chem lab. Since the word "fusion" was uttered (not by F&P),
they focused entirely on expected radiation and nuclear ash. It is the
well-measured "excess heat" that refused to go away that gives the book its
title. Mills' work is outside the area which Baudette chose to cover.

I have just finished reading it in review for Temple University's Frontier
Perspectives. Jed will review it for IE. The mills of the gods grind slowly
but exceedingly fine, and Baudette's painstaking analysis is a devastating
indictment of the rush to judgement in which accepted scientific protocols
were swept aside by the arrogance of members of the physics establishment.
F&P made some mistakes, but they were nothing in comparison with the
mistakes made by the *skeptics* and the science reporters.

This book is required reading for Vortex members who have watched the cold
fusion drama unfold over the last several years.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 29 07:19:46 2000
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--============_-1252512561==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 5:44 PM -0400 5/25/00, hamdi ucar wrote:
>Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory. He
>interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a closed loop. This
>issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's papers. My interpretation is a
>closed loop

it's a dipole, not a loop.  it's a dipole that has been 'folded' into a circle.
the enclosed attachment is a drawing that I made for Horace Heffner.  I sent
this to De Aquino and he confirmed that it is correct...

r

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v9S7bQfnMojrxS3zt1Icgl2cN2GcuGB8xmvcbGSLxm+8xn77xWQ8gmYsx2I8x3mMx1oM
wHasuHqcxmMMyErMZ28Cx3ccyIPMxtfLtl97to88vo08tpL8ZYQsj47ctpisyRVGtlIL
yZs4zLlT/MmTPMqVzMWl7MmZTMqRjMpA18muDLYdSMmpDMq0vMW3jMu5rMu7zMu97Mu/
DMzBLMw9VQAAOw==
--============_-1252512561==_============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 29 11:18:05 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Ralph,

Thanks for resolving the issue.

Ok, as the Aquino confirmed that dipole components are not connected at the end, the issue is resolved. As I once wrote to Jean-Louis, obtaining very low impedance on such a antenna design is equally outstanding as managing the gravity. 
If it is possible would you write me our to the forum a quotation from Aquino on this issue.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

ralph muha wrote:
> 
> At 5:44 PM -0400 5/25/00, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory. He
> >interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a closed loop. This
> >issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's papers. My interpretation is a
> >closed loop
> 
> it's a dipole, not a loop.  it's a dipole that has been 'folded' into a circle.
> the enclosed attachment is a drawing that I made for Horace Heffner.  I sent
> this to De Aquino and he confirmed that it is correct...
> 
> r

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 29 12:24:23 2000
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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Dans un courrier daté du 29/05/00 16:20:25 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), 
rmuha minimal.com a écrit :

> At 5:44 PM -0400 5/25/00, hamdi ucar wrote:
>  >Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory. He
>  >interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a closed loop. This
>  >issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's papers. My interpretation is a
>  >closed loop
>  
>  it's a dipole, not a loop.  it's a dipole that has been 'folded' into a 
> circle.
>  the enclosed attachment is a drawing that I made for Horace Heffner.  I 
sent
>  this to De Aquino and he confirmed that it is correct...

YES of course, I confirm this and De Aquino himself has checked all diagrams 
and details posted in my web site at :

  http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/systemg/html/sysgexp.htm 

See also the picture about the original ELF dipole from the Aquino's System-G 
:

  http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/systemg/images/sysgdip2.gif

Aquino has used a true dipole with each branch left open.

Best Regards

Jean-Louis Naudin

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 29 13:58:00 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	Berkant asked about Bees and their electrostatic field.

	There is an area of electric, magnetic and electromagnetic fields'
emissions which has bee called by many names, including, but not limited
to:
	a]	sferics
	b]	Natural Radio
	c]	"fair weather currents"
	d]	"Earth currents"

	These fields and effects occuply a wide bandwidth, from sub sonic,
or lower than about 15 or 20 cps ... to ... the edge of the audible range
of hearing, or about 10,000 to 25,000 cps... and a little beyond.  These
fields are not normally sensed, except in rare instances.....
	These "invisibilities" are not lost to us,  with
specialized equipment transduction can be realized and these fields'
variations can be exhibited as sounds and-or visual representations.
	The "Realm or the Unseen"... and area to which I have fallen in
love years ago extends in other areas.....
	As physical vibrations of the Air and Winds and Earth and Sea and
Fesh Waters of lakes and streams .....and beyond as optical
electromagnetic radiations below the visible red... and above the visible
violet ...

	Some of the names given to the sounds of the sferics are 
	gurgulers... sweepers, craokers, whistlers, "The Dawn Chorus" and
take the form of tones and whistles and more.
	Many time the "Invisibilities" are accompanied with the
"Inaudibilities"... and in both cases the range of phenomenae display a
non linear range that must be compressed and-or expanded to allow by our
own "only human" senses.

	Bees exhibit and sense some of these effects... The bee does not
"need" the electronic emission it makes, as far as I know... any more than
you need the electronic emission you make if you walk through snow... or
sand!

	But is is a marvelous would... and it is constant and immeasurably
beautiful....  the design and use of transduction is some times simple...
but it is rarely easy.... and it is sometimes not simple or easy....
	One example of a simple, easy effect many but not all can enjoy:

	Find a strudy, hard stick or dowel and fit it with a hard rubber
end so you can put it to your ear... and not hurt yourself!
	Place this against the block of a running engine and you will hear
some of the internals of the engine wwith this old mechanics' aid.
	Now... take you mechanics' stick and go to a quiet place in the
out-of-doors where there is bedrock...place the stich against the rock...
and listen.... you can also amplify and tpe record this and consider a
stethescope as well...  If you use the latter... place it against you cat
... or dog... and hear a wealth of sounds... always there but rarely
heard.....
	With certain phosphores you can "see" with the aid of a good
lens and filter.....part of the optical bandwidth of  the moth!  I call
such a set up "Moth eyes" ...  The list goes on and is limited not
primarily by skill, which can usually be learned or enjoined.... but by
one's imagination.


	John "who said I can't see or hear it!"  Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 29 19:16:12 2000
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Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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Ralph Muha wrote:
>
>At 5:44 PM -0400 5/25/00, hamdi ucar wrote:
>>Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory.
>>He interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a
>>closed loop. This issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's
>>papers. My interpretation is a closed loop
>
>>it's a dipole, not a loop.  it's a dipole that has been 'folded'
>>into a circle. the enclosed attachment is a drawing that I made
>>for Horace Heffner.  I sent this to De Aquino and he confirmed
>>that it is correct...

Hey Ralph,

Do you think it is possible to push 300 Amps (at 60Hz and around
35V) into an open circuit pair of wires (dipole) laid as a few
loops in iron filings !!!?

Doesn't this sound like a fraud to you also !?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon May 29 20:42:27 2000
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Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:39:51 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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>If it is possible would you write me our to the forum a quotation from
>Aquino on this issue.

well, here's what I sent to De Aquino, along with the same drawing...

>To: "Fran De Aquino" <deaquino uema.br>
>From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
>Subject: spiral antenna
>
>regarding http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036,
>is the attached drawing a correct representation
>of your experimental setup?
>
>r

and here is his reply...

>From: "FDA" <deaquino elo.com.br>
>To: <rmuha minimal.com>
>Subject: En: spiral antenna
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:06:51 -0300
>
>-----Mensagem original-----
>De: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
>Para: Fran De Aquino <deaquino uema.br>
>Data: Segunda-feira, 21 de Fevereiro de 2000 07:34
>Assunto: spiral antenna
>
>
>OK! this representation is correct.
>regards,
>Fran De Aquino

that's all that I have...

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 05:10:59 2000
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Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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At 10:06 PM -0400 5/29/00, John Winterflood wrote:

>Do you think it is possible to push 300 Amps (at 60Hz and around
>35V) into an open circuit pair of wires (dipole) laid as a few
>loops in iron filings !!!?

actually, I think of it as a bizarre capacitor rather than a dipole,
the dielectric consisting of two layers of insulating paint
separated by powdered iron...  the issue is it's impedance at 60Hz...

>Doesn't this sound like a fraud to you also !?

no, it could be a flawed experiment, but that is what independent
review and replication is supposed to uncover...



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 05:56:03 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: De Aquino current - JLN
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At 10:06 AM 5/30/00 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:

>Hey Ralph,
>
>Do you think it is possible to push 300 Amps (at 60Hz and around
>35V) into an open circuit pair of wires (dipole) laid as a few
>loops in iron filings !!!?

I noticed this apparent absurdity also and asked Jean-Louis if his
replication device drew anything like that current.  His response was
negative but he has done more work since that time.  What kind of currents
did you finally get up to, Jean-Louis?

>Doesn't this sound like a fraud to you also !?

Maybe I'm just too trusting but, when I see apparently absurd experimental
results like that, my first hypothesis is gross error, or inept
bungling...not fraud.

Speaking of bungling, my confused email to de Aquino was blessedly returned
as undeliverable....<g>



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 09:18:55 2000
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:13:42 EDT
Subject: Re: De Aquino current - JLN
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Dans un courrier daté du 30/05/00 14:56:28 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), 
little earthtech.org a écrit :

> I noticed this apparent absurdity also and asked Jean-Louis if his
>  replication device drew anything like that current.  His response was
>  negative but he has done more work since that time.  What kind of currents
>  did you finally get up to, Jean-Louis?

The latest measured datas about the System-G v2.0 : 

Resonance frequency : 20 KHz
Power Amp DC power input = 84.45 Watts.
Antenna impedance = 0.088 ohm
Current in antenna = 6.20 A
VLF Power radiated = 74.78 Watts
Joule losses = 3.41 Watts
Antenna efficiency = 95.6 %

Today the System-G project is in stand-by state, because I am waiting for 
finding the required iron powder (relative permeability=75, conductivity=10 
S/m). With this powder, I shall be able to drop the phase velocity of the ELF 
waves so as to get a resonance frequency at 50Hz ( the power grid frequency 
in France), and thus, I shall be able to send more power ( expected at least 
2kW ) to the ELF antenna by using directly the power grid like Aquino...

Stay tuned,

Best Regards

Jean-Louis

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 09:20:48 2000
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Message-ID: <3933EADB.CCFCCC7B bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:22:51 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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This one's for Fred.  Are you still out there, Sparber?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_768000/768672.stm

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 10:52:43 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:48:00 CDT
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>From: JNaudin509 aol.com
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:51:53 EDT
>
>For more details abou the System-G you may also look at :
>
>  http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/systemg/html/sysgexp.htm
>
>Regards
>
>Jean-Louis Naudin
>

thanx, I should have checked deeper before sticking my foot in.

Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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At 10:18 AM 5/29/0, ralph muha wrote:
>At 5:44 PM -0400 5/25/00, hamdi ucar wrote:
>>Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory. He
>>interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a closed loop. This
>>issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's papers. My interpretation is a
>>closed loop
>
>it's a dipole, not a loop.  it's a dipole that has been 'folded' into a circle.
>the enclosed attachment is a drawing that I made for Horace Heffner.  I sent
>this to De Aquino and he confirmed that it is correct...


Thanks to Ralph Muha for corresponding privately with me to clear this up.
I was worried that my memory had failed me yet again!  Thank goodness my
memory is not as bad as I thought.  The person to whom Ralph sent his
drawing was <horacex usa.net>.  This is NOT ME!   I am
<hheffner mtaonline.net>, who was posting on both vortex and freenrg.  I
have not subsribed to freenrg for a very long time, and I did not read
vortex for a long period.

Anyone know who <horacex usa.net> is?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 11:26:40 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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At 10:18 AM 5/29/0, ralph muha wrote:
>At 5:44 PM -0400 5/25/00, hamdi ucar wrote:
>>Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory. He
>>interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a closed loop. This
>>issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's papers. My interpretation is a
>>closed loop
>
>it's a dipole, not a loop.  it's a dipole that has been 'folded' into a circle.
>the enclosed attachment is a drawing that I made for Horace Heffner.  I sent
>this to De Aquino and he confirmed that it is correct...

Slight correction:

Thanks to Ralph Muha for corresponding privately with me to clear this up.
I was worried that my memory had failed me yet again!  Thank goodness my
memory is not as bad as I thought.  The person to whom Ralph sent his
drawing was <horacex usa.net>, who was posting on both vortex and freenrg.
This is NOT ME!   I am <hheffner mtaonline.net>.   I have not subsribed to
freenrg for a very long time, and I did not read vortex for a long period.


Anyone know who <horacex usa.net> is?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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cc: Fran De Aquino <deaquino uema.br>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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	Dear Folks,

	See note, in text, below....

On Tue, 30 May 2000, John Winterflood wrote:

> Ralph Muha wrote:
> >
> >At 5:44 PM -0400 5/25/00, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >>Jean-Louis tried his own designed antenna to test the theory.
> >>He interpreted the dipole as an open circuit instead of a
> >>closed loop. This issue is not explicetely stated on Aquino's
> >>papers. My interpretation is a closed loop
> >
> >>it's a dipole, not a loop.  it's a dipole that has been 'folded'
> >>into a circle. the enclosed attachment is a drawing that I made
> >>for Horace Heffner.  I sent this to De Aquino and he confirmed
> >>that it is correct...
> 
> Hey Ralph,
> 
> Do you think it is possible to push 300 Amps (at 60Hz and around
> 35V) into an open circuit pair of wires (dipole) laid as a few
> loops in iron filings !!!?
> 
> Doesn't this sound like a fraud to you also !?
> 


	I do not think "fraud" is an applicable term.  If there is mis
communication or mistake... then this is not "fraud".   
	Until you KNOW the whole story, please choose your language with
more care.

			John 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 14:42:22 2000
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Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:38:39 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Greetings / Gingrich comments.
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Greetings All.

I returned from ICCF-8 Sunday afternoon and my luggage was delivered late
Monday night. The KLM guy says that flight has been leaving over 100 bags a
day behind in Europe. There were two baggage claim lines running; one for
the previous day. I wonder the airline is caught in a vicious circle,
without enough room for the daily load of baggage, perhaps because the
plane has been chock full of passengers. Every plane I have been on lately
has been sold out. The airports in Atlanta and Europe were a mob scene.

Now that my luggage is back I have many papers, notes and audio tapes to
review. I will describe my impressions sometime in the next few days. In
the meanwhile, here is an amusing article from the Atlanta newspapers,
about our ex-congressman Newt Gingrich, who fancies himself an expert in
high technology:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/newsatlanta/gingrich/

Quote:

	Over the course of an hour and a half, Gingrich mapped out a
	historical model of technology and economic forces in the past
	century and foreshadowed how he sees the next 25 years. 

	"It will be a scale of total change," Gingrich said. "We will
	experience as much development in technology in the next 25
	years as we did in the last 100. You will never stop this age of
	transition." 

	Gingrich talks about S curves, carbon nanotubes, hydrogen fuel
	cells and solar energy. He sounds like a professor explaining
	complex concepts to a student. He applies his ideas to
	education, public policy, the Internet and business. 

Yeah, right! Gingrich was a history teacher too, but apparently he did not
learn much about technology, science and progress between 1850 and 1950,
when progress in general was much faster than it is today, in my opinion.
Look at the outward appearance of our automobiles and airplanes. The design
of the Boeing 747 has been unchanged for 32 years, and until recently even
the production line techniques were largely the same. Compare airplanes and
automobiles from 1968 to the 1936 models and you see a much larger
difference. The Internet began in 1963 and was essentially complete in
software design by around 1980, as far as I know. The HTML web interface is
a minor, incremental improvement which looks like a huge change to end
users. Computer CPU design was frozen in 1980 with the introduction of the
IBM PC, and it seems to me that software reliability measured in crashes
per day per user has been declining for years, albeit partly because of the
increased complexity of new applications like voice input. Technologically,
we are in a period of stasis, and quiescence. There is nothing inherently
wrong with technological quiescence; it gives society a chance to exploit
present designs, and benefit from standardization, mass production, and
reduced cost. Prime examples of long-lived, obsolete designs are the Model
T Ford and the PC. Steam railroad locomotive design was standardized around
1860, until steam piston engines were replaced with diesel and diesel
electric (1935 - 1950). Steam pistons were inefficient and polluting, but
economically it made sense to keep building this frozen, obsolete design.
The advantages of alternatives such as steam turbines were not compelling
enough to be worth the retooling and rebuilding. Marine steam engines, on
the other hand, improved rapidly throughout that period, from piston
engines similar to those used in rail locomotives, to triple expansion
piston engines, to steam turbines. For some reason, in that market niche
improvements were economically justified.

So many people repeat this mantra nowadays: "progress, progress, progress,"
I begin to think it is an attempt to reassure oneself, or perhaps a form of
cognitive dissonance (that is, arguing with oneself). When people insist
most loudly that we are living in a gold age of progress, or sublime social
justice, economic expansion, improved education, or we have reached the End
of Science, that is a warning sign or events are actually going downhill or
the status quo is on the verge of change, and people are nervous. As
Fleischmann said last week, "when people say that everything is known, you
can be sure that nothing is known."

Politically, Gingrich was a jerk, although I must say that early on he took
a bold stand in favor of civil rights are improved race relations, which
takes a lot of guts in Georgia.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue May 30 19:37:49 2000
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Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:11:34 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000530143301.3117B-100000 college.antioch-c
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John Schurner wrote:
>
>John Winterflood wrote:
>>..
>>Do you think it is possible to push 300 Amps (at 60Hz and around
>>35V) into an open circuit pair of wires (dipole) laid as a few
>>loops in iron filings !!!?
>> 
>>Doesn't this sound like a fraud to you also !?
> 
>I do not think "fraud" is an applicable term.  If there is mis-
>communication or mistake... then this is not "fraud".
>Until you KNOW the whole story, please choose your language
>with more care.

You'll notice I stuck to Vortex rules and only referred to
his paper / experiment.  Maybe "fraud" is the wrong term
but is sprang to mind as meaning much the same as "joke"
or "prank" but somewhat stronger.  If I had the least doubt
that it might be real I would have been more careful and
used "joke" instead.  But I will be truly amazed if the
experiment has more reality to it than just existing in
someone's imagination.

I expect would be easy to check whether Mr De Aquino
is bona fide or not - just email the head of the physics
department there and ask if such a person exists and what
is his position.  I remember some very entertaining and
often erudite posts by a guy who called himself
Archimedes Plutonium who was apparently only a dishwasher
but was entitled to an email account at a very renowned
academic establishment because he was employed there.

Can anyone read Spanish, maybe an email address can be
obtained from the university web pages :-
http://www.uema.br/

Anyone know how easy it is to get a paper into the
LANL preprint archives ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 31 03:33:05 2000
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Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:28:18 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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References: <3.0.6.32.20000530100644.009d34a0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <3.0.6.32.20000531101134.009dbde0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
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Hi All,


This is why academic people, people with title does not join to open forums. There is always somebody does not respecting titles (like addressing as Mr.) and using inappropriate terms. It is also true for one-to-one but not private correspondences.  This 

typical behavior of publicity is enough to keep academic people from public discussions.

Note that I a not addressing to the authentication issue of the author.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


John Winterflood wrote:
> 
> John Schurner wrote:
> >
> >John Winterflood wrote:
> >>..
> >>Doesn't this sound like a fraud to you also !?
> >
> >I do not think "fraud" is an applicable term.  If there is mis-
> >communication or mistake... then this is not "fraud".
> >Until you KNOW the whole story, please choose your language
> >with more care.
> 
 
> I expect would be easy to check whether Mr De Aquino
> is bona fide or not - just email the head of the physics
> department there and ask if such a person exists and what
> is his position.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 31 05:42:41 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: LANL eprints
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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000530143301.3117B-100000 college.antioch-c ollege.edu>
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At 10:11 AM 5/31/00 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:

>Anyone know how easy it is to get a paper into the
>LANL preprint archives ?

It's easy.  There is no review.  The only thing they try to do it keep
commercial interests out of it.  If you have a .edu suffix on your email
address, your submission will be automatically accepted.  If you have .com
or other suffix, you just have to explain that you're not some company
bragging about its developments.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 31 09:51:43 2000
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Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:45:54 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Superluminal experiment at NEC Institute
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See:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/053000sci-physics-light.html

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	Dear Folks,

	After you read the account, you judge.... this is a little bit of
a stretch .... it may well show the effect, so I have no argument, per se,
but it is not a grand method if you wanted to use it...

	

On Wed, 31 May 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/053000sci-physics-light.html
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 31 11:36:09 2000
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Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:31:39 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Calvet calorimeter positioning problem
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I think I mentioned a slight problem with some Calvet calorimeters. They
are not perfectly insensitive to the position of the sample, which they
should be according to the theory of operation. Storms and Poppendiek say
this positioning problem is caused by conduction through the chamber floor.
When you raise the sample off the floor of the chamber a little, by placing
it on a screen (or maybe a chunk of Styrofoam), you no longer get
significantly different readings when the sample is moved closer or farther
from the walls.

- Jed

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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:44:13 +0800
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
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Hi Hamdi,

>This is why academic people, people with title does not
>join to open forums.

I can assure you (moving among academic people myself)
that this is NOT why academic people with titles don't
join groups like this!!!  In fact this case illustrates
one of the lesser reasons they wouldn't join - anyone can
write anything real or not, and waste a heap of other
peoples time checking through mathematics, trying to
replicate, etc, and the person initiating a hoax has
a lot of entertainment and loses absolutely nothing.
If someone has position and credentials, they have a lot
to loose if they are caught trying to publish something
foolish or fraudulent, so they can generally be taken
seriously.

If De Aquino was really in an academic research lab and
had obtained the result that he claims to have done, I
think you would not be hearing first from a list like this!

>There is always somebody does not respecting titles (like
>addressing as Mr.)...

I did not notice anywhere that De Aquino claimed any title.
On his paper he does not list any credentials.  Therefore
I think it is most correct to call him Mr - since it is
apparently what he desires.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed May 31 21:37:29 2000
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Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:49:59 -0400
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John writes:
>I did not notice anywhere that De Aquino claimed any title.
>On his paper he does not list any credentials.  Therefore
>I think it is most correct to call him Mr - since it is
>apparently what he desires.

And since Fran is a common female name, it is also not recommended that we
assume that he is a male.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Too complex ...Re: Superluminal experiment at NEC Institute
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:57:11 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Wed, 31 May 2000 13:27:46 -0400
(EDT):
>	After you read the account, you judge.... this is a little bit of
>a stretch .... it may well show the effect, so I have no argument, per se,
>but it is not a grand method if you wanted to use it...
[snip]
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/053000sci-physics-light.html

I get the impression that the critics have missed the point that the "tail"
apparently does travel faster than light.
I suspect that what we are really seeing here is that FTL transfer of
information is possible, but not FTL transfer of energy. IOW the information
may be being transferred by a non-energy carrying mechanism, which relies
upon the receiver (in this case the activated caesium atoms) supplying it
with the necessary energy.

It would be interesting to see what happens if a second pulse is transmitted
before the first pulse could arrive at its destination travelling at c.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: Re: New paper from Fran De Aquino (gr-qc/0005107)
References: <3.0.6.32.20000530100644.009d34a0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <3.0.6.32.20000531101134.009dbde0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
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John Winterflood wrote:

> Can anyone read Spanish, maybe an email address can be
> obtained from the university web pages :-
> http://www.uema.br/
>

Sorry, it isn't spanish but portuguese.
I was not able to found any Aquino there though.

Juan